Could WILD be mastered simply by improving your daydreaming skills?

I was thinking about this a while ago while daydreaming at school. :cheeky:
Could it perhaps be beneficial to simply practice your daydreaming skills when you try to learn WILD - in other words, you just lie down and try to daydream as vividly as possible?
My reasoning here is that daydreams are in many ways the same type of experience as lucid dreams (although lucid dreams are obviously almost always much more vivid) - right?
So maybe focusing on making your daydreaming experiences as vivid as possible will eventually make them turn into actual lucid dreams?

It will definitely help you to become lucid, since visualisation is a great aid in DILD and MILD as well. However, I doubt whether you could 'turn your daydreams into lucid dreams' because I don't think you keep full awareness of the present moment while daydreaming. Therefore, I don't think you keep awareness while your body falls asleep, which is WILD in essence.

Yeah, is it correct to think of WILD as simply daydreaming while staying extra aware of yourself?
I feel that thinking of WILD as a form of vivid daydreaming with some extra self-awareness of your physical body thrown into the mix seems like a fairly simple and intuitive way to look at it, if it's true.
Is it possible to succeed WILD this way, simply by vividly daydreaming while also staying aware of yourself at the same time, like a form of visualization/self-awareness combo?

Daydream for its own sake. It's great :rolllaugh:

We are already experts in daydreaming. We are not in visualization, which requires a little bit of concentration and relaxation. If you mix visualization with daydreaming, without forgetting the visualization theme, i think yes it's a good method to WILD. For instance if you imagine a romantic setting with an interesting person, it's somewhat easy to remain aware and let the subconscious add its imagination.

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

We are already experts in daydreaming. We are not in visualization, which requires a little bit of concentration and relaxation. If you mix visualization with daydreaming, without forgetting the visualization theme, i think yes it's a good method to WILD. For instance if you imagine a romantic setting with an interesting person, it's somewhat easy to remain aware and let the subconscious add its imagination.

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Yeah, well the way I have understood visualization is that it is pretty much "lucid daydreaming" - that is, you consciously imagine something and try to remain as aware as possible during these imaginations, and "get inside" the daydream.
I guess that's what I meant in my original question - focusing on visualization while taking a nap and improving that skill until your visualizations are so vivid that one of them just happens to "become" a sucessful WILD.

Right, it's a skill that can be developed. if one chooses an engaging topic to visualize, that's easier. I usually do it from bedtime with a romantic visulization, it takes ages to WILD but i have done it a few times. Not for the purpose of LDing, only for the fun,ok maybe with some hope of LDing. Never tried this in the morning or after wbtb. I think i might have a plan tonight haha

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Originally Posted by InnerVision

It will definitely help you to become lucid, since visualisation is a great aid in DILD and MILD as well. However, I doubt whether you could 'turn your daydreams into lucid dreams' because I don't think you keep full awareness of the present moment while daydreaming. Therefore, I don't think you keep awareness while your body falls asleep, which is WILD in essence.

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Unless you focus on hypnagogic imagery along with imagination, then I'm sure it's possible. I think I'll try it tonight

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

Right, it's a skill that can be developed. if one chooses an engaging topic to visualize, that's easier. I usually do it from bedtime with a romantic visulization, it takes ages to WILD but i have done it a few times. Not for the purpose of LDing, only for the fun,ok maybe with some hope of LDing. Never tried this in the morning or after wbtb. I think i might have a plan tonight haha

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Hehe, me too.
I like the idea of a romantic visualization, I sometimes fantasize about those things when I am single and have the hots for someone in my class or whatever, and think of a scenario when I am getting romantic and intimate with that person and sharing smiles and deep eye contacts etc.
I have noticed that it actually has a surprisingly positive real effect on how I feel, sometimes I even find myself have genuine feelings of love and delight right afterwards, so I can imagine that a lucid dream like that would be pretty mindblowing.

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Originally Posted by Yuusha

Hehe, me too.
I like the idea of a romantic visualization, I sometimes fantasize about those things when I am single and have the hots for someone in my class or whatever, and think of a scenario when I am getting romantic and intimate with that person and sharing smiles and deep eye contacts etc.
I have noticed that it actually has a surprisingly positive real effect on how I feel, sometimes I even find myself have genuine feelings of love and delight right afterwards, so I can imagine that a lucid dream like that would be pretty mindblowing.

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Yeah, it can be dangerous because you can really fall in love hehe lol, no kidding. I have tried with imaginary persons but doesn't seem to work so well. I usually shy away from this method because of the afterward feelings and thoughts. Ya its that deep !
But if you engage in a more wild intense visualization you don't fall asleep either.
I can't succeed with most other visualizations

I'm curious to see all your experiences with this! If it does work, it does indeed sound like a refreshing perspective on WILD and allows for some daytime practice.

I was actually thinking this as well a while ago, haven't tested it much yet though.

While daydreaming just practice being aware that you're daydreaming, it's not as easy as it sounds because just like in night time dreams we tend to drift away during daydreams, so I do actually think it's really good practice!

Also visualisations get stronger and more detailed the calmer the mind; for example I can visualise in a lot better in the middle of meditation, or even if you just sit quietly and daydream the visualisation grow much stronger after some time when you start forgetting about the outside world. This is also good for thinking up art / design / problem solving / anything else, you have to sit down, relax and let the mind concentrate.

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

Yeah, it can be dangerous because you can really fall in love hehe lol, no kidding. I have tried with imaginary persons but doesn't seem to work so well. I usually shy away from this method because of the afterward feelings and thoughts. Ya its that deep !
But if you engage in a more wild intense visualization you don't fall asleep either.
I can't succeed with most other visualizations

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I have had a couple dreams where I have had some form of romantic moment with a female Dream Character, and sometimes I almost feel like I wanna meet that girl again, haha.
It's pretty amazing how believable a dream can be, it literally affects your mood exactly as if it were physical reality, even though you "know" that it's all in your mind.

I think i didnt explain myself fully. I mean, you could fall in love for a real person if you visualize it, even if you are mostly interested in WILDing

I honestly don't think having a (day)dreamy mind is very usefull for WILD (I'm thinking about DEILD but it's actually the same) because starting to think and having daydreams could actually make you wander of and eventually fall asleep. You have to stay sharp and keep the darkness infront of you as it's the only thing reminding you that's you're laying down with your eyes closed when you eventually go out.
Of cours I'm not sure about this as I've have been a natural champion in daydreaming for as long as I know, I'd say it does help getting used to scenes that can be manipulated so for dream-control it really helps.

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Originally Posted by Yuusha

...is it correct to think of WILD as simply daydreaming while staying extra aware of yourself?

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No, I don't think it is correct.

The process of WILD involves maintaining waking-life self-awareness (aka, staying extra aware of yourself) while your body falls asleep. If you are doing WILD correctly, you are not daydreaming at all, but maintaining a steady focus on your state, and your upcoming dream. In a sense, you are avoiding letting your mind wander into daydreams. I think daydreaming would likely be a distraction for most, except perhaps for those who could use it for visualizing the upcoming dream (though if they are adept enough to visualize through daydreaming, then doing the same without daydreaming would be doable too, and probably much more easily).

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I feel that thinking of WILD as a form of vivid daydreaming with some extra self-awareness of your physical body thrown into the mix seems like a fairly simple and intuitive way to look at it, if it's true.

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Except that it isn't true, I think. WILD is a transition from wake to sleep to dream without losing consciousness, and not a form of vivid daydreaming; these are two very different things -- indeed, a more accurate form of vivid daydreaming during sleep is a NLD, and not a WILD.

As I think Memm already mentioned, daydreaming tends to be an almost unconscious thing, or at least a state that moves you a step away from your self-awareness... that may even be why they call it daydreaming. In fact, I would call daydreaming itself a non-lucid event, and if you are self-aware during a thing you call a daydream, you are actually consciously visualizing or imagining, which to me is the opposite of daydreaming.

This is not a matter of semantics or definitions, either. Daydreaming is a real function, and one that most people will emerge from (or are snapped awake from by their teacher) with a feeling of "where was I just then?" -- just like a normal NLD. I think if you are attaching self-awareness to your daydreams, you are doing something very different from daydreaming.

So:

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Is it possible to succeed WILD this way, simply by vividly daydreaming while also staying aware of yourself at the same time, like a form of visualization/self-awareness combo?

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I suppose if you are doing all the other things necessary for WILD (like falling asleep, using a mantra/anchor to hold your focus, maintaining overall self-awareness, and anticipating and minding the transition to your dream), and you are "daydreaming" in the context of self-aware visualization, then sure, it might help. But no, I don't think that simply daydreaming will help much with WILD, much less allow you to master the process. Indeed, for most people, just daydreaming will likely become a distraction, and might make holding on to their Selves throughout the WILD dive more difficult, not less.

You might want to listen to Bobblehat, Yuusha, and stick to daydreaming for daydreaming's sake. It's a great escape, especially during dull times, but escaping is not what you want to do during a WILD.

Sorry to be contradictory.