Thread: Strange way to attain lucidity

Hello everyone, I wanted to tell you people about the weird way a friend of mine gets lucid and ask for your opinions. First off, he's a natural lucid dreamer and hasn't ever really read a thing about the topic, reason why I find it a little bit difficult to communicate effectively with him.
Everything he does in order to attain lucidity is the result of observation, he noticed he sometimes had these weird dreams in which he knew he was dreaming and started looking for a way to induce them. Also, he told me that when he wakes up naturally he feels like if his ears unplugged (change from internal input to external ?).

So over the course of a few days he studied the way he felt asleep and tried to induce the lucid dream by thinking about what he wanted to dream before falling asleep (incubation). One of those days, he noticed the usual sensation in his ears, thought the other way around: They felt like if they were plugged and everything he heard faded off, and then he doze off. This sensation was accompanied by his eyes rolling up in his sockets , reason why he thought there was a relationship between these two things and falling asleep, thus he tried to replicate one sensation so as the other to take place. He found that, by rolling his eyes up when fully awake, his ears plugged slightly (compared to when he fell asleep).

After this discovery he came up with a way to induce a lucid dream from cold (no prior sleep): He laid on bed and relaxed for a while, usually no more than ten minutes, until he felt like he was ready to fall asleep (I cannot give more details on this “feeling” as he couldn’t either ) and then he rolled his eyes like he had naturally and involuntarily done that other night. There were two possible outcomes, either his ears plugged immediately and he felt asleep (like you would in a WILD, but starting dreaming shortly after going to bed) or he failed to feel the plugs and started the process all over (relax --> feel sleepy --> roll eyes), normally succeeding in the second or third attempt.

I haven’t heard of anything quite like this before, is the eye rolling one of the so called “sleep commands”? Is his sleep cycle messed up and so he is able to REM dream from cold?

I really need some help with this . I’ll be talking to him again tomorrow, any ideas on what should I ask him in order to clarify this and how should I phrase the questions for someone who does not know the theory, but seems masters the practice? Any thoughts concerning the ear plugging, the eye roll and the technique?

Heyy Eddydpyl!

Can't give you a lot of info based on the things you said here you should wait for the "experts" from the forum to look at your post

Now for the ears thing. He might be feeling sleep paralysis or just some of tha fases of it. I dont know a lot about natural lucid dreamers only that they are rare. The "plug" sound was maybe because of his mind shifting to the dream. Like a shift of some sort. Like the sound in "Inception" or "The Matrix".

As you said when he starts feeling that he just starts lucid dreaming or goes in the dream it self. Its his way of entering the dream and its a good thing he discovered it .

I don't sugest you go and do the things step by step like him. You have to keep in mind that everyone is different. As your friend he is a natural and so he found that signall, but you maybe arent a natural and you might not expirience it like him.

What I sugest is try to find your way "in the dream". Try doing some of the techniques here on the forum. Do them your way. The way they suit you.

Umm I am kind a freaked out about the eye roll thing. Now do you mean his eyes roll up all the way up like he literly doesnt see or like his eyes are twitching. If you get some more information on that I would be glad to read it.

Anyway I wish you good luck in your next lucid expirience my friend!

Thanks for the reply chance7hope, I know the info is not a lot but as I wrote I couldn't manage to get any more out of him, hope the experts here at dreamviews check this post and leave their thoughts.

I don't really think the plugging is related to SP (directly that is), as I said, he feels this sensation as soon as fifteen minutes after goint to bed. Maybe his sleep cycles are mesed up?

I know everyone is different and all of that but him being a natural and them being so rare I couldn't miss the oportunity to try and get some kind information about how he does what he does. By eye rolling I meant like looking to the ceiling with your eyes clossed.

Very interesting. Well, it's hard to tell what the ears effect is. I probably would say it may be his personal type of HH/wilding noise. It may be a physical thing. Only he can tell after becoming acquainted with the terminology.

Now, the eye movement, I've read about this before:

Originally Posted by Dreamhighlander

One thing i noticed and i never read it on what we feel when we WILD is the awareness of REM, or so i think it is. With this, i mean, noticing your eyes moving rapidly.
When my WILD is on the right track, i feel the usual vibrations, buzz sound, etc. But right before those feelings, i notice my eyes going left to right very quickly without my control. This is for only a few seconds. Then, it stops when imagery becomes to take from.

Do you guys notice your REM's also?

So we have at least another account related to eye movement while wilding. I don't think I've paid enough attention when trying to fall asleep about that. It would be interesting if we can do more experiments while wilding to see if more eye movements are more conductive to calling up a dream. Could eye movements be determing whether we enter REM or NREM?

I also just recently met someone who has had lucids for many years and hasn't read anything about it either. He too does a kind of WILD right in and thinks about what he's going to dream about before going to bed. I thought it was quite weird, the methods that are normally taught to lucid dream have little to do with his, but I see he's not the only one who does it, so maybe it's more common than we think.

Originally Posted by martakartus

I also just recently met someone who has had lucids for many years and hasn't read anything about it either. He too does a kind of WILD right in and thinks about what he's going to dream about before going to bed. I thought it was quite weird, the methods that are normally taught to lucid dream have little to do with his, but I see he's not the only one who does it, so maybe it's more common than we think.

That's something I too noticed, methods taught here and elsewhere don’t relate too much to what my friend does in his strange WILD. Probably thinking about what you want to dream, as if you incubated one, is the first instinct for someone who knows nothing about the theory taught to non-naturals. Maybe you could ask him about the ear plugging thing?

NyxCC, I would agree the ear plugging could be his personal HH/WILD noise if it wasn't for the fact he says he's able to replicate it while awake. Maybe he has related these two (plugged ears and eye rolling) at a subconscious level or something? It seems to him that it's something physical, but again he doesn't know about HH or pretty much anything else, though he did recognize having felt it after I explained to him what it was.

I think I didn't express myself clearly with the eye rolling thing. It’s not anything like the typical REM eyeballs dance inside your eye sockets, he just looks up with his eyes closed and like looks for something far away, widening his field of vision. I didn’t give these details before because he didn’t himself explain them to me that clearly and I might have misunderstood him.

That’s basically what I wanted to ask about, whether we are onto something here, studying the methods of a natural, like the eye movements determining the sleep phase as you suggest.

I think I didn't express myself clearly with the eye rolling thing. It’s not anything like the typical REM eyeballs dance inside your eye sockets, he just looks up with his eyes closed and like looks for something far away, widening his field of vision. I didn’t give these details before because he didn’t himself explain them to me that clearly and I might have misunderstood him.

That’s basically what I wanted to ask about, whether we are onto something here, studying the methods of a natural, like the eye movements determining the sleep phase as you suggest.

We might really be onto something. Now if we are able to replicate this...With what you've written above about the eyes it now seems close to certain third eye visualizations that may be used for wilding. It also sounds close to the vision/visualization tutorials here. Again, I am left wondering if the movement and position of the eyes plays a role.

It's really great that you guys have come across natural dreamers that have no knowledge of current techniques so we can read what works for them. There are many paths to lucidity.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

We might really be onto something. Now if we are able to replicate this...With what you've written above about the eyes it now seems close to certain third eye visualizations that may be used for wilding. It also sounds close to the vision/visualization tutorials here. Again, I am left wondering if the movement and position of the eyes plays a role.

It's really great that you guys have come across natural dreamers that have no knowledge of current techniques so we can read what works for them. There are many paths to lucidity.

Yep, hopefully we´ll get somewhere, like find a new induction technique (that'd be cool) or learn something about how the naturals do. I've been thinking, the key here might be the eyes movement but he told me he first thought of this method when one night he felt asleep consciously and felt as if his ears plugged (and eyes rolled), external sounds faded away and a (unstable) dream took place, in which he was lucid. This was the first time he felt the plugging, but he had felt the unplugging many times when waking up naturally. Thing is, I have never felt this unplugging of the senses when waking up, it seems like if his consciousness wakes up before his body does. Have you ever felt this sensation or know someone that has?

Originally Posted by Eddydpyl

Thing is, I have never felt this unplugging of the senses when waking up, it seems like if his consciousness wakes up before his body does. Have you ever felt this sensation or know someone that has?

It is most noticeable for me when I get an urge to roll over when I *think* I am having trouble getting back to sleep. When I do move or roll over, regular audio senses become more obvious and I can feel that my muscles are waking back up. I occasionally notice something similar when waking up after a lucid or normal dream. I think it was more prevalent when I was really concentrating on remembering to try to DEILD, RC or recall right at any awakening...thinking that my awareness of the process of waking up was heightened.

Earlier, when I read the OP, I tried rolling my eyes back while obviously wide awake and I did feel more drowsy, it seemed. I may try to experiment with this as a way to doze off quicker as well as how he uses it...though I am guessing I will need WBTB and may not want to skip natural NREM, even if that is possible for the average person on the average night (some people do have different sleep abnormalities). As I got through to the later posts it sounded more like he was using this as a way to realize that he is asleep. It can be confusing many times. I have been laying in bed thinking I was still trying to get to sleep only to do a motionless RC before realizing I was already asleep, basically dreaming that I am in bed trying to get to sleep much like my rollover example. It either doesn't happen to me very often or I am not catching it very often. This friend's method may be similar to my clenched eyes method of guessing how asleep I am. When fully asleep I am guessing the clenched eyes "action" is happening completely with my dream eyes and it brings on stronger vibrations for me. When I get lighter vibrations I am guessing that I am just in the earlier stages of sleep and not quite to REM, but that is just my current hypothesis. I am definitely far from a master of WILDing, so I am hopeful that something comes of the method in the OP!

Originally Posted by NyxCC

We might really be onto something. Now if we are able to replicate this...With what you've written above about the eyes it now seems close to certain third eye visualizations that may be used for wilding. It also sounds close to the vision/visualization tutorials here. Again, I am left wondering if the movement and position of the eyes plays a role.

This is quite interesting. When I was getting started with all this, during several weeks I used a sleep hypnosis audio to improve dream recall. At the very beginning, along with relaxation exercises, you were asked to look at the back of your eyelids, then roll your eyes up as far as you could and hold them that way until it hurt slightly, then relax them, and then repeat it twice or so. Back then I assumed it was part of the relaxation process, a way of relaxing your eye muscles, but maybe there's more to it than just that.

I think I've experienced exactly the same once during a WILD attempt, suddenly I lost all 'feeling' of my body and my inner-ears swelled like when you ascend or descent a mountain. The swollen feeling also caused a bit of tinnitus after which it turned into a vivid auditory hallucination of a bee flying over my head. Oh yeah, almost forgot to say my eyes turned right instead of upwards like you said.

We seem to be getting somewhere! Shall we try to replicate this somehow, as NyxCC suggested? I'm still in contact with the natural dreamer, any idea of something I could ask him to try and clarify things?

@ Marta

Thanks for bringing this up. I recall now reading something about rolling the eyes and hypnosis. Must definitely re-visit this subject!


@ Eddydpyl

Have you ever felt this sensation or know someone that has?

The process of wilding by its nature enables you to be more aware of the plugging/unplugging of senses. Perhaps it depends where you place your focus. I prefer to focus on the feel of my body and the lightness that follows. Regarding the ear plugging sensation, I don't think I have noticed something like this, but I did find another similar account:

Originally Posted by Gawain

When I had a problem WILDing the other day, I felt that the WILDs were like a change in pressure in my ear canals, like when I yawned, or when my ears popped ascending/descending a mountain.

Originally Posted by Eddydpyl

We seem to be getting somewhere! Shall we try to replicate this somehow, as NyxCC suggested? I'm still in contact with the natural dreamer, any idea of something I could ask him to try and clarify things?

All right, so how would we proceed? The usual wbtb and then step 1 relaxing step 2 moving the eyes? The movement should be up (ok), is it directed towards the inside (as in head and forehead) or the outside - more like you are watching the upper part of the room and more in depth? Does he move the eyes continuously or just once and keeps them at that point? I suppose we should avoid straining too.

We can also try it pre bed to see if it affects the cycles.

I would suggest both approaches, wbtb (just in case the NREM skip is something not everyone can archive) and WILD from cold. The eye thing he does is still a bit of a mystery for me, though he showed me how he does it but with his eyes open. As far as I can tell the movement is looking up towards the inside, though I might be wrong. He moves the eyes just once and keeps them there for a few seconds; if the plugging takes place he knows he's asleep and if it doesn't he repeats the process. He also punctuated that it wouldn't work unless he got the feeling I mentioned in the first post.

I'll try different approaches for a few days and inform if I discover anything interesting.

Originally Posted by Eddydpyl

I would suggest both approaches, wbtb (just in case the NREM skip is something not everyone can archive) and WILD from cold. The eye thing he does is still a bit of a mystery for me, though he showed me how he does it but with his eyes open. As far as I can tell the movement is looking up towards the inside, though I might be wrong. He moves the eyes just once and keeps them there for a few seconds; if the plugging takes place he knows he's asleep and if it doesn't he repeats the process. He also punctuated that it wouldn't work unless he got the feeling I mentioned in the first post.

I'll try different approaches for a few days and inform if I discover anything interesting.

Now that sounds like something similar to FILD but without the finger stuff and the RC being the plug in the ears after looking up. I just don't know why he knows he's asleep when he does it cause when I look up my ears pop every time, does he mean his ears stay plugged or pop open?
Also I've been able to pop my ears whenever I want without the aid of the eyes just by using a small muscle located inside my ear, I discovered this after a nasty cold I had which blocked my nose and throat with thick mucus.

Originally Posted by LDman

Now that sounds like something similar to FILD but without the finger stuff and the RC being the plug in the ears after looking up. I just don't know why he knows he's asleep when he does it cause when I look up my ears pop every time, does he mean his ears stay plugged or pop open?
Also I've been able to pop my ears whenever I want without the aid of the eyes just by using a small muscle located inside my ear, I discovered this after a nasty cold I had which blocked my nose and throat with thick mucus.

This! Could you please specify how do you make your ears pop when looking up? I mean, I'm not able to do so. He knows he is asleep because the ears stay plugged, everything he hears from then on sounds muffled. When doing it when awake he feels something similar, less exaggerated.

Edit: Ok so I just found out I'm able to do so, though for me it doesn't seem to be related to the eyes rolling. Is it like a pop that seems to go from the inside to the outside? What you feel when blowing with your nose held closed, when you want to unplugg your ears after a change of altitude?

Edit 2: It doesn't neccesarely result in a pop, it feels like a built up pressure inside your ears. Is it me or maintaining the pressure causes an urge to yawn? Maybe it's just that I'm sleepy as hell.

This might sound strange but I need to know if for you it also sounds kind off like the sound of the wind in your ears.

I've been able to pop my ears for several years now without my eyes doing anything, it was just after I read this thread that I tried it with the eyes looking upwards and I noticed the same feeling in my ears.
Yeah it ain't a pop really, more a like a bit of air just escaping your inner ear-channel or something and yes it's actually the same as when you yawn, however I'm currently trying to 'maintain the pressure' like you said cause I've not been able to hold the air in my ears.

EDIT: I've just found a stable point where I can keep the air inside my ears and it caused the yawn-reflex.
First I felt my inner nose-channels getting humid I think after which my jaw is forced open by the reflex resulting in a very deep yawn actually. It also made me feel sleepy so I could possibly use this as some sort of relaxation for future WILDs or DEILDs.

I just thought if we could use this as an RC, keeping air inside your ears and testing if it causes a yawn-reflex or not, who knows it behaves differently in a dream...

Originally Posted by LDman

I've been able to pop my ears for several years now without my eyes doing anything, it was just after I read this thread that I tried it with the eyes looking upwards and I noticed the same feeling in my ears.
Yeah it ain't a pop really, more a like a bit of air just escaping your inner ear-channel or something and yes it's actually the same as when you yawn, however I'm currently trying to 'maintain the pressure' like you said cause I've not been able to hold the air in my ears.

EDIT: I've just found a stable point where I can keep the air inside my ears and it caused the yawn-reflex.
First I felt my inner nose-channels getting humid I think after which my jaw is forced open by the reflex resulting in a very deep yawn actually. It also made me feel sleepy so I could possibly use this as some sort of relaxation for future WILDs or DEILDs.

I just thought if we could use this as an RC, keeping air inside your ears and testing if it causes a yawn-reflex or not, who knows it behaves differently in a dream...

So this seems to be what my friend does to fall asleep or RC or whatever it might be, the fact that it causes yawning and sleepiness gives me hope.

It is most noticeable for me when I get an urge to roll over when I *think* I am having trouble getting back to sleep. When I do move or roll over, regular audio senses become more obvious and I can feel that my muscles are waking back up. I occasionally notice something similar when waking up after a lucid or normal dream. I think it was more prevalent when I was really concentrating on remembering to try to DEILD, RC or recall right at any awakening...thinking that my awareness of the process of waking up was heightened.

Maybe awareness is all there is to notice this change. He describes it as an obvious unplugging of his senses and told me that, when falling asleep by rolling his eyes (which might not be necessary) and feeling the ear pop (which we seem to have discovered), all his senses faded. From there either he would start creating the scenario for his dream, as it was usually pitch black, or focus again on the exterior sounds (they were muffled, but still there) and consequently wake up.

Earlier, when I read the OP, I tried rolling my eyes back while obviously wide awake and I did feel more drowsy, it seemed. I may try to experiment with this as a way to doze off quicker as well as how he uses it...though I am guessing I will need WBTB and may not want to skip natural NREM, even if that is possible for the average person on the average night (some people do have different sleep abnormalities).

A sleep abnormality was my first thought, but when I asked him for the most common diseases, narcolepsy for example (not that I'm a medic), he told me he didn't think he suffered from any of them. Though he might be wrong.

He told me something else which I didn't thought relevant but might now be: He had to stop LD because he lost control of his dreams which turned into nightmares and, each time he woke up intentionally trying to escape the nightmare, he woke up to a terrible headache.

This friend's method may be similar to my clenched eyes method of guessing how asleep I am. When fully asleep I am guessing the clenched eyes "action" is happening completely with my dream eyes and it brings on stronger vibrations for me. When I get lighter vibrations I am guessing that I am just in the earlier stages of sleep and not quite to REM, but that is just my current hypothesis. I am definitely far from a master of WILDing, so I am hopeful that something comes of the method in the OP!

Could you explain what do you mean by clenched eyes "action"? I'm not native and had to look up the word, do you mean closed eyes?

Idk if it this is important to this thread but if you close your eyes and roll them up you feel a little bit of relaxation. Ann Wise discovered that it produced a short lived alpha wave increase but enough to allow a quick relaxation response. Now may this give rise to a different outcome in a pre sleep state?

Edit: Anna Wise, not Ann, in case one wants to google

Originally Posted by VagalTone

Idk if it this is important to this thread but if you close your eyes and roll them up you feel a little bit of relaxation. Ann Wise discovered that it produced a short lived alpha wave increase but enough to allow a quick relaxation response. Now may this give rise to a different outcome in a pre sleep state?

I do think its relevant, maybe a posible explanation for it acting as a trigger of some sort.

Concerning the ear thing, I've done some research and it seems there is no such muscle in the ears, but in the neck area, which has an effect on a little tube that joins these two and that makes that sound when the walls of the tube are close together and separated when making use of that muscle.

^^ Well done with the research. I tried doing this ear plugging thing that kind of sounds like wind into your ears and observing in the mirror. Slight movement in the neck area and interestingly my eyelids lower as if about to blink as I initiate it. You may indeed feel like yawning if done longer.

Originally Posted by NyxCC

^^ Well done with the research. I tried doing this ear plugging thing that kind of sounds like wind into your ears and observing in the mirror. Slight movement in the neck area and interestingly my eyelids lower as if about to blink as I initiate it. You may indeed feel like yawning if done longer.

Thanks! It's called the eustachian tube and connects the middle ear with a few other things, tough it doesn't seem to have any relation with sleep other than its blockage being more common on people with sleep apnea. It is known to cause auditory problems when blocked but mainly due to the accumulation of fluids. Its function is to regulate the difference of pressure between the air outside the ear and inside, so as to avoid a negative difference in pressure.

"Swallowing or yawning opens the eustachian tube and allows air to flow into or out of the middle ear, keeping the air pressure on both sides of the eardrum equal. If the eustachian tube is blocked, the air pressure in the middle ear is different than the pressure on the outside of the eardrum."

I would say that what we do is open the passage wide and actually "hear" the air flow. So we now know what it is, but what does it have to do with LD? Maybe we should focus more on the eye thing?

Edit: Yep, mistery solved, he seems to open his tubes wide and then LD or someting - "Tilt your head back and thrust your jaw forward. Looking to the sky will put your eustachian tubes into the proper position. Thrusting your jaw forward may help promote a yawn, and may open your Eustachian tubes and relieve the pressure."

I guess now experimentation is the way to go? I did try and WILD this way yesterday but fell asleep.

I am curious to know more about his relaxation approach...that may play a role, as different relaxation techniques can have different brain signatures, despite the same background of the hypometabolic relaxation response

I had an LD this morning and I decided to test out the ear-popping and see if it behaves differently in a dream than IRL.
Here's the dream straight out of the Dream-journal:

"I'm walking around in a city with my family, there are very wide plaza's everywhere and the sky is grey probably raining soon. We seem to be the only people her and decide to leave, then I remember we forgot a small dark bag at the place we just came from. As I tell them to go back I snap lucid and try Climbing up a small tower we just walked by. When I got up the tower/building I wanted my family to leave so they wouldn't distract me, I noticed the dream getting weaker so I shout "CLARITY!"which boosted the vividness of the dream. As I stood on the roof I thought of the thread on DV in which I discussed a possible new RC/inducer. Basicly opening or closing your ear-channels in the same way as when you yawn. I tried it several times but I didn't feel any change of pressure in my ears nor did I hear any pop or air. After probably 10 attempts I noticed a small yet sharp sting in my right ear so I decided to stop. I got back on the ground where suddenly my bed was, the dream was slowly falling apart and I tried stabilizing by hugging the side of the bed but it was too late and resulted in the following FA."

As you can see there was a difference, this means this could be used as a quick and very discreet RC though it might not be as reliable as the nose-plug RC. I will probably make more tests in the future, just before I fell asleep this morning I looked up with my eyes several times and if 'VagalTone' is right with the alpha wave thing caused by the eye movement then we might have a possible alternative for the SSILD technique here.