Quote Originally Posted by XeL View Post
Once again, who says I suggest that he should act like he's only interested in friendship? In my opinion the best way to get to know a person is to befriend them. This doesn't mean that I'm suggesting that he should show dishonesty towards himself, or to the person he's interested in, it only means that I believe he should get an idea of who he's actually dating. Thus, preventing from himself from ending up in a bad relationship. You make it sound very black and white.
If you interpret my antics as making it sound black and white, then you are misinterpreting. Let's see if we can clarify a bit more (but I'm kinda growing disinterested in explaining - it's almost like a religious debate at this point, where nobody's gonna be convinced of anything - I actually quite LIKE the fact that most guys disagree with my views... makes life easier).

Still, I can see where our disconnect is. Let me attempt to bridge this gap for us. If you have a large social circle, and easily make lots of friends, and aren't in a position where you're doing things to get something from people (in general - this part has NOTHING to do with romance), then that will be naturally attractive, and it's very easy to get into a romantic relationship with someone, IF YOU GO FOR WHAT YOU WANT WHEN YOU SEE IT AT SOME POINT. That's for sure. If that is what you mean, then I 100% agree with you that that is one good way to go about life in general. I wouldn't say it's the best way to meet someone and enter a lasting relationship with them, because you have zero data to back that up (the plural of anecdote is not data).

Now, the point that I was approaching is not that, but rather, what MOST GUYS do, which is be "friends" with a girl that they LIKE (romantically) and ultimately get shot down over and over again, and told they are "too nice" because of their dicklessness when it comes to putting themselves out there.


Definitely. I believe this is best done through steady friendship.
See, I believe you can start a romantic relationship WHILE getting to know the person as well, and building the friendship piece. Now I ask you a question: What qualities of friendship do you think are prerequisites to a passionate romance that builds into something long-term and meaningful over time? Cause all I'm stating is that the "friendship" parts can develop parallel to the "passionate romance" parts, and that it's silly to try to do them one after the other. Why will a romance fail if it doesn't meet any of those prerequisites before it becomes a romance?

And what about all the people who've met on online dating sites and have been happy together for years? Did they build a long lasting friendship before stepping it up? Of course not. They went to a website whose sole business model is "mate-finding" and they met. They sent each other a couple of e-mails, and then they met. Zero friendship. The vast majority of people alive today (that I've interacted with), who've been together for 40, 50, 60+ years, didn't "hang out as friends" forever... they were just introduced, hit it off, and the rest is history. You can't deny that.

I'm happy for you that your experience has been favourable, but you can't really come out and say that it's the "best." I have exactly two friends who've been childhood friends with their now-wives. But most of my happily-married friends met the way more couples meet: You see her across the crowded room, are attracted to her, and walk over to say hi and find out what she's like. And once they hit it off, they hit it off. No need to put on the brakes and "be friends" first. The "steady friendship" stream is just one of many ways it can happen, and it's just one of many ways it can lead to a long-lasting, serious relationship. It's misleading and limiting to say otherwise.

I find this extremely hard to believe. Let's draw an analogy here between relationships and buying second-hand computers.

So you're surfing on the waves of the internet. All of a sudden you run into an online ad. It's a guy selling a second-hand computer. You've been looking for this kind of computer, so you decide to give the guy a call. You talk to him and set up a time for a meeting. A few hours later you get to his house. He meets you halfway with the computer in his hand. It looks great, but he tells you that once you pay for it, that's it. You won't get a cooling-off period.

The obvious reaction here would of course be to ask to test whether or not the computer is actually functional. But no, you decide to pay the man and drive off, unknowing of the quality of the product.

Relationships are very similar. The girl is the computer. You can either buy her right away, OR try her out and see if it's a product you actually want. Buying that computer without the knowledge of the content or the quality of it, will of course end in tears in more cases.

There are a number of ways this analogy completely fails to hold water. For one, you are making the assumption that once you buy a computer, you're stuck with it forever. Your analogy ONLY holds true if you have the option to return a computer for a FULL refund at any time with no hassle or questions asked... because after all, you can end a relationship pretty much any time you want.

If I could return the computer, hassle-free, then I would have no problems buying it and testing it out after I buy it. In fact, millions of people do that today. They order laptops from Dell. I ordered one, and it lasted me 6 years. My newer laptop, I ordered from System76, and I couldn't be happier. Oh, but I bought it before testing it. Imagine that!

Also, let me ask you this: What does "buying" mean in your analogy anyway? What is the difference between "testing things out" and "buying"? What investment are you talking about? You'll have to clarify this for me, cause I don't get it. I'm assuming that by "testing" you mean "friendship" and by "buying" you mean "romance" but the two are very, very different things. Maybe it would make more sense to say you'd like to test the shitty shareware version of something to get an idea of what the full version will be... But as far as I'm concerned, if I have the opportunity to "test" a computer fully before I buy it, I'd test all the features. I guess that means having sex. Wouldn't test a computer without checking if the DVD writer works, after all.

So yeah, your analogy fails to be an accurate analogy, and even if you ignore the analogy, it fails in real life, cause people are already doing what you describe in a way and are totally happy with it. It happens every time you buy something online.

I don't see how you can argue against that logic.
It's really not that hard.



You make it sound as if it's a tactical approach to be in the friendship zone. If that's what you believe, you totally miss my point. Being in the friendship zone is the natural state of friendship. You enjoy your friendship and see where it takes you, without any further intent. Love will arise naturally, eventually.
Per the beginning of this post, I don't assume anything is tactical like that, and we are actually in agreement about this point. The only difference is that I recognize that "love" is not some magical, airy-fairy thing that just happens. It's a subconscious PROCESS... it's something you DO. Are you saying that if that process gets kicked off sooner rather than later, it is invalid? I would quite disagree with that.

It has worked for me in all cases. I'm sorry, but I only speak from experience. If Skarr wants to take my advice or not is up to him, I'm simply explaining how I think it should be done.
Indeed, most guys do rely 100% on luck. It's certainly an easy option, and yields about as effectively as drilling for oil at a random location without having any understanding of how to look for good spots before you drill. I'm happy for you that you lucked out, and if Skarr assumes your way is the only way, I genuinely wish he also lucks out.

love