# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity > Wake Initiated Lucid Dreams (WILD) >  >  Work Area for SP sticky thread.

## Sivason

I created this thread for some of thee staff and experts to compose a group effort sticky. If you want to discuss the topic in general then please use the thread in this link, http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/sleep-...80/index5.html

This thread is reserved for those who are going to work on composing the thread.
For  example my next effort will be a short intro to the thread, then I would get input and suggestions. Each cotributor can post there rough draft here and go through the same process. I just want to avoid cluttering Mzzck's thread.

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## Sivason

http://www.dreamviews.com/f11/laberg...5/#post1945179Over 12 years ago they publish an eight page paper, and the only mention of SP is 3-4 sentences, simply saying some people experience it. No suggestion that is should be part of WILD

[LaBerge, S. & DeGracia, D.J. (2000). Varieties of lucid dreaming experience. In R.G. Kunzendorf & B. Wallace (Eds.), Individual Differences in Conscious Experience (pp. 269-307). Amsterdam: John Benjamins. (Available from Amazon.com here.) ]

Varieties of Lucid Dreaming Experience
Stephen LaBerge * and Donald J. DeGracia †


~~~Sleep paralysis is commonly reported both by nonlucid and lucid dreamers. Sleep paralysis involves the intrusion of peripheral somatosensory input associated with REM atonia into the dreamer’s consciousness. Closely related to sleep paralysis is the commonly reported feature of the difficulty of moving or talking in dreams, often when the dreamer is subject to a threat. This feature is also reported by lucid dreamers, and again suggests intrusion of peripheral somatosensory afferent information into dream consciousness.~~~

They also only give the following details on doing a WILD and experiencing HI,

~~~2. Wake-Initiated Lucid Dreams
It is possible to maintain continuous reflective consciousness while falling asleep and hence to enter a lucid dream directly from the waking state. As with DILDs, this form of lucid dream initiation is a skill that improves with motivation and practice. Its cultivation has been described by Tibetan yogis, and several modern sources (LaBerge 1985; LaBerge and Rheingold 1990; Ouspensky, 1960; Rogo 1983). WILDs are most likely to occur after awakening in the morning or during afternoon naps (LaBerge, 1980). While falling asleep, the subject’s mind is kept focused and lucid through the transition from waking to dreaming. Experiences of visual and auditory hypnagogic imagery are common during this transition. Unusual somesthetic imagery may also occur; subjects may feel themselves “float” or “sink out of their body”. There may (e.g. SLB561) or may not (e.g. SLB37) be a momentary break in subjects’ consciousness. Then the subjects will find themselves fully in a dream scene and lucid. Once in the dream-state, the lucid dream continues exactly like those initiated directly from the dream state. ~~~


They only mention that HI stuff may occur and do not mention it being needed.


Stephen LaBerge did write an article about SP, but it only tells about what it is, and makes a claim, that some people may be able to enter an LD from this state He does not talk at all about anyone attempting to get SP. the link I ound was 2003, but it could be older.

I posted a copy of that article here, 


So, i have to admit that as I already had good skills, I never really read any of the modern books out there. A few months back I ordered them, and never got to looking at them. So, currently i am uninformed about much of LaBerge's stuff. Does he say much about SP in his books? I will dig them out and look before long, unless one of you can help me out.

So, this is what i intend this thread to be. An area where we can arange material before creating the stickie thread. More to come. If you want to just rework a bit of info or ideas you have already posted elsewhere it could save time, and I am more  than fine with that. I will probably just do something from my past posts and tweak it a bit.

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## CJC

i assume this is only for the forum runner people right?

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## Sivason

Yeah, we are going to put together a thread, and I did not want to clutter Mzzkc's thread.

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## Sageous

Sivason:

Can I make a truly heretical remark about LaBerge's work?  

After he scientifically proved that LD'ing was real, he kind of coasted on that breakthrough from then on.  Though EWOLD is rightfully the bible of LD'ing, "God" has been on break in Hawaii since then.  

I don't mean this in a disparaging way, Stephen is a very bright and very good man, and likely knows as much about the _function_ of LD'ing as anyone alive, but he really hasn't added much of real substance to his work since EWOLD, which I believe he published in 1990.  So you might not want to knock yourself out looking for stuff after EWOLD -- I would even bet that that note about SP was little more than dutiful lip-service to the growing crowd of dreamers who were incorrectly attaching value to SP and HI.  I have a feeling that Stephen would be the first to tell you that, given our accumulated experience, we may be better sources for this new guide than he.

I hope that made sense, and I hope that I don't get struck by lightning anytime soon.

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## Sivason

*I have to make a Heretical remark myself. Until about a year ago I had never heard about him.* I went ahead and ordered his books, just to see, but as i LD just fine, I have yet to pick one up. Chances are anyone here knows more about him than me. I was just surfing to see if anything he said contradicts our premise. Also if I link to a article by a known Doctor in the feild, it gives people something with substance.

I see him tell about true SP as an illness and give one example of a guy turning a bad SP into a good LD. That would only be good advice for someone suffering from true SP. He does not support the concept of SP being a part of WILD or suggest anyone try to create an SP state. But the article may have been the starting point for misunderstanding.

That was not my intro by the way. I just stuck it there to get comments, and because I may link to the SP article.

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## Sageous

^^ Fair enough.  I think that, should you read EWOLD, you'll mostly be nodding a lot.  But it is a good read, and I don't think anything Stephen said in that particular book contradicts your premise ... indeed, it will likely solidify it -- so I guess you were doing the right thing!

More later.

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## Sivason

First Draft Intro, take a look and make suggestions or comments,



Many of the staff and long term members have decided that a serious misunderstanding about Sleep Paralysis (SP) has become a huge stumbling block for new lucid dreamers. We have ended up having to answer more questions about  SP than pretty much anything else.


*
First, what is SP (Sleep Paralysis):* The true meaning of the term is a certain medical condition, that effects the ability to wake up properly. People with this condition wake up partially but feel as if they are trapped. They have almost no strength to get up, and often are having a fearful experience. It is a sleep disorder. From my basic search for info, it looks like about *1 in 250 people experience true SP on a frequent basis.
*

 A man named Dr. Stephen LaBerge is very well known for clinical research into lucid dreaming. Here is an article he wrote that gives more details. I also feel this article may be the starting place for the current state of confusion. Please take a minute to read it over, http://www.dreamviews.com/f11/laberg...alysis-136535/


He tells what SP is. He tells people if they experience it, just understand what is happening and stay calm. He also suggests that based on one man’s experience, someone stuck in SP might be able to instead go into a lucid dream. I assume the confusion about the term happened like this. Someone probably wrote a guide telling the sufferers of SP how they could convert the terrifying state into a WILD. *Well, that is of no use what so every to 249 out 250 of us!* The ideas probably got spread incorrectly as normal WILD event.  *It is not a normal WILD event, so don’t even think about it, that is just a waste of time.

*
The next step in the term getting so misused is people like me trying to explain how to do a correct WILD. When people have come to me and said “someone told me I had to reach SP”, I would just say “you do not reach a point when you cannot move. SP is what stops your sleeping body from acting out dreams.”  *That is not actually true, the normal condition that prevents you from jerking around in bed, during a dream is properly called REM atonia.* The LD community has been calling REM atonia by the wrong name (SP) and we should stop doing it.

*So what does REM atonia mean?* It is a change in chemicals and brain function that makes your body hold more or less still while you dream. REM atonia does not prevent you from waking yourself up and moving normally[/B]. That is why it is not SP! It is just awareness during sleep of some process that happens, and does not truely prevent you from moving. It feels like you are not really connected to your body and many people describe it as a heavy blanket feeling. Some people, like me, actually feel the chemical change start. It may feel like you are on narcotics, and moving would take a concious effort.

*Here is why we talk about it (incorrectly calling it SP.)* In a WILD you are attempting to stay aware while your body falls asleep. You will be able to experience the stages of sleep and one event you can sometimes experience is REM atonia. Some methods of WILD use this as a mile post in the WILD process. In my WILDs, for instance, when I experience REM atonia, I change my mindset from an anchor (counting, mantra) to trying visualization to induce a dream. [B]  People just started calling it SP. Again, it is using the term incorrectly and adds to the confusion.[B] Let’s all agree to stop using the term as it just complicates everything.

* Call REM atonia by its true name, describe what you mean if it is not REM atonia you have been using SP for, or coin a phrase that you can use instead.*



Here is what six well known experts and staff have to say in support of you all not worrying about SP and moving on to some useful material.

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## Sivason

My contribution, rough draft. comments welcome.

I have used the term SP incorrectly in the past to describe a state where the WILDer experiences the chemical changes of REM atonia. In my method of WILDing you observe the progress of your sleep, and when you feel REM atonia, you shift what your mind is doing. Many people call REM atonia SP, but I intend to never use the term SP to describe it again. It is not hard to type out 'REM atonia' instead of SP.  Using the term SP causes every one to become confused. I use a system that does require an awareness of REM atonia, and I will continue to teach it, but lets all stop calling it SP.

By learning what each part of your sleep feels like, you can improve your chances of pulling off a WILD. If you are reading a tutorial from now on, I suggest you take the term SP to mean REM atonia, or an awareness that such a state has been reached. That is unless it involves you supposedly being able to start moving in a dream, because you are supposedly paralysised; I would laugh those off and find a new tutorial altogether, if it metions that kind of stuff. It is only going to work for 1 in 250 of us.

*I have sucessfully been using WILD methods for over 20 years, but on no occasion have I been even slightly paralyzed!* I sometimes feel as if moving would be hard, but that is a natural feeling, because my body has fallen asleep. I can always get my body to move if needed. Do not worry about SP and move on to some training that actually works.  Unless you were experiencing SP before you wanted to learn lucid dreaming, you will probably never experience it and can forget about it.



Please stop using the term SP and forget the idea entirely! You will not every reach actual SP, so let's move forward, leaving the days of SP confusion behind us.

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## Sageous

Sivason, regarding your intro:

Though chronic SP is a medical condition, I suppose, I think you might mention more clearly that everyone experiences REM Atonia every night, and occasionally, when their awareness enters waking life slightly ahead of their body, they witness that REM Atonia first hand.  That witnessing of a nightly event is what's become known as SP, and not the medical condition. I think that will lend more credibility to the folks who have wrapped all their LD'ing expectations around "SP," and make them more able to understand that the stuff they're experiencing is either not true SP at all, or something they're inventing during times that REM Atonia hasn't occurred yet.  

One tiny editorial note:  you said, "SP is what stops you from acting out dreams.  You might instead say something like, "SP is what stops you from acting out your dreams in the physical world.

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## Sageous

I feel like I'm not working fast enough, so I swiped a couple of paragraphs from my DVA WILD class about the "noise."  I don't think its enough, but I'll try to add more or get rid of unnecessary crap shortly.

Let me know if I'm at least playing in the right court, though, or if I should be mentioning something else.  Fair warning -- there's an excellent chance I'll wake up tomorrow with an actual idea and change everything (not the concepts, of course; just the words)!

Here we go:

First, I have had many thousands of WILD's, and never once cared about SP, much less looked for it.  No one should.

SP is not a mystical or unusual event by any measure because REM Atonia happens naturally every time you are in REM -- it must occur, or else we’d all be flailing about in our beds, or sleepwalking, or shouting, or … well, you get it. That you are consciously aware of it because it remained switched on a bit too long or switched on early does not make it special, unless you consider your ability to defy nature and notice it something special -- which is a pretty cool thing, I suppose. 

SP is also not a goal in WILD. Let me repeat that: SP is not a goal in WILD. One more time for the back rows: SP is not a goal in WILD! You should never, ever, be trying to “achieve SP” if your ultimate goal is lucid dreaming. To do so is to elevate a normal condition of sleep to a point where it is all you pay attention to, and then, invariably, your chances of LD’ing will fade behind the empty excitement of SP.

It is critical for WILD that you understand that SP is not dangerous: it is not an invasion by monsters, or your body failing you, or a break from reality, or any of the other things noted on the forums by breathless dreamers who encounter SP unprepared. It is just a natural bodily function that you happen to notice because you possess waking awareness at a time when nature never intended you to be awake. So if you ever encounter SP (I rarely do) just relax, acknowledge it, and move on!

Most of the time SP isn’t really even SP: People who are talking about their experiences in SP are really talking about their experiences in NREM sleep, which can include the vibrations, sensory deprivation, and other assorted bells and whistles associated with SP these days. This is sort of a shame, because consciously navigating NREM sleep is an adventure unto itself (and, BTW, the place the Tibetan sleep yogis like to visit), and to belittle it by calling it SP is to miss out on an otherwise good thing.

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## Sageous

I feel like I'm not working fast enough, so I swiped a couple of paragraphs from my DVA WILD class about the "noise."  I don't think its enough, but I'll try to add more or get rid of unnecessary crap shortly.

Let me know if I'm at least playing in the right court, though, or if I should be mentioning something else.  Fair warning -- there's an excellent chance I'll wake up tomorrow with an actual idea and change everything (not the concepts, of course; just the words)!

Here we go:

First, I have had many thousands of WILD's, and never once cared about SP, much less looked for it.  No one should.

SP is not a mystical or unusual event by any measure because REM Atonia happens naturally every time you are in REM -- it must occur, or else we’d all be flailing about in our beds, or sleepwalking, or shouting, or … well, you get it. That you are consciously aware of it because it remained switched on a bit too long or switched on early does not make it special, unless you consider your ability to defy nature and notice it something special -- which is a pretty cool thing, I suppose. 

SP is also not a goal in WILD. Let me repeat that: SP is not a goal in WILD. One more time for the back rows: SP is not a goal in WILD! You should never, ever, be trying to “achieve SP” if your ultimate goal is lucid dreaming. To do so is to elevate a normal condition of sleep to a point where it is all you pay attention to, and then, invariably, your chances of LD’ing will fade behind the empty excitement of SP.

It is critical for WILD that you understand that SP is not dangerous: it is not an invasion by monsters, or your body failing you, or a break from reality, or any of the other things noted on the forums by breathless dreamers who encounter SP unprepared. It is just a natural bodily function that you happen to notice because you possess waking awareness at a time when nature never intended you to be awake. So if you ever encounter SP (I rarely do) just relax, acknowledge it, and move on!

Most of the time SP isn’t really even SP: People who are talking about their experiences in SP are really talking about their experiences in NREM sleep, which can include the vibrations, sensory deprivation, and other assorted bells and whistles associated with SP these days. This is sort of a shame, because consciously navigating NREM sleep is an adventure unto itself (and, BTW, the place the Tibetan sleep yogis like to visit), and to belittle it by calling it SP is to miss out on an otherwise good thing.

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## Sivason

Great Sageous. That looks like what we are after. If you use it, please just stream line it into three paragraphs. Thanks for your help. I will rework the intro a bit and consider your suggestions.

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## melanieb

I read through a lot of that and I believe, if we want this to be a comprehensive guide to be stickied that we remove references to "I feel" and "I think" so it reads more like an instructive or helpful guide and less like someone's blog.

Unless the desire is to cover the basics at the beginning and then provide relevant experience from each contributor to back up the information throughout the rest of the post, it might read better without the words "I think" and "I feel" scattered through the information.

I'm not contributing anything yet because I would like to see the material supplied before I see if anything needs to be added or removed. I know you guys have the best experience with this.

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## Mzzkc

I like the idea of adding in personal experience in addition to more technical instruction.

We all have stories that helped us form our current "expert" opinion. If we share them, the readers may see why what we're saying is relevant and ultimately, accurate. 

Plus, such content will make the guide more entertaining and thus more likely to be read.

Possible format of sticky:

Intro:

Covers purpose; abstract.
Expert Analysis/Opinion:

Expert Name

Technical Stuff:
blah

Personal Stuff:
blah 

Resources:
linky-things


Expert Name......etc.
Conclusion:

Broad Summary
Endorsement of all Involved.

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## Sivason

> I like the idea of adding in personal experience in addition to more technical instruction.
> 
> We all have stories that helped us form our current "expert" opinion. If we share them, the readers may see why what we're saying is relevant and ultimately, accurate. 
> 
> Plus, such content will make the guide more entertaining and thus more likely to be read.
> 
> Possible format of sticky:
> 
> Intro:
> ...




That works for me. I like keeping personal testimonial in it. I did not intend this to be a guide on SP. The general intent is to show beginners that many experienced LDers discourage them from wasting time on a subject that does not work, and is confusing. Let's keep it a simple clarification thread. The intro links to an article they can read if they want details about the sleep disorder, and we are just trying to get everyone to stop using the term to mean other things. Also, spread awareness to beginers that they need not spend time worrying about SP.

I like the format you suggest. Each person should feel free to say what they think will get the point across "I WILD and know SP is a big mis-understanding, forget about it" Any technical info or specific LD related thing you want to say would be fine and make it interesting, but lets not aim for a tutorial.

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## xpin2winx

for the people who say they get sleep paralysis. Do you experience full body paralysis first then vibrations/hypnagogics/auditory hallucinations? Or vice versa? I have experienced the vibrations/hypnagogics/sounds dozens of times but never ever was paralyzed and never even felt patalyzed/ I know not everyone is the same but could people be mistaking paralysis because they feel like they are falling which makes them feel glued to their bed? 

I keep getting scared at the vibrations and hallucination part of WILD. Today, i saw clouds forming and just starting visualizing clouds. Sure enough they were getting more vivid and vivid. I was afraid i was gonna end up plummeting to my death in my dream and did not want to experience that. So i opened my eyes instead.

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## cmind

> for the people who say they get sleep paralysis. Do you experience full body paralysis first then vibrations/hypnagogics/auditory hallucinations? Or vice versa? I have experienced the vibrations/hypnagogics/sounds dozens of times but never ever was paralyzed and never even felt patalyzed/ I know not everyone is the same but could people be mistaking paralysis because they feel like they are falling which makes them feel glued to their bed? 
> 
> I keep getting scared at the vibrations and hallucination part of WILD. Today, i saw clouds forming and just starting visualizing clouds. Sure enough they were getting more vivid and vivid. I was afraid i was gonna end up plummeting to my death in my dream and did not want to experience that. So i opened my eyes instead.



The point we're trying to make is that sleep paralysis is not a part of WILD or hypnagogia at all. Anyone who does experience SP has a sleep disorder that apparently affects only 1 in 250 people. 

By the way, awesome WILD attempt. Next time try plummeting, it might be fun.

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## melanieb

> I like the idea of adding in personal experience in addition to more technical instruction.
> We all have stories that helped us form our current "expert" opinion. If we share them, the readers may see why what we're saying is relevant and ultimately, accurate.
> Plus, such content will make the guide more entertaining and thus more likely to be read.
> 
> Possible format of sticky:
> 
> Intro:
> 
> Covers purpose; abstract.
> ...




This is basically the format I was thinking of. I think it sends a more professional and concise message showing new members that thought has been put into the creation of a truly informative guide.

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## gab

OK, here is my draft contribution. I'm opened to make changes to it. Please, feel free to comment.

I have had 36 WILDs and 20 DEILDs and lot more attempts. In 10 months, I have never experienced any full body paralysis (SP) when WILDing.

Any sensation you are experiencing during your WILD attempt, is a part of falling asleep process. You can feel vibrations, floating feeling, sounds, acceleration, your body being distorted, heaviness, being relaxed.

It happens every time, but we normally don't notice it, because by then we are asleep. Lucid dreamers going for a WILD notice it, because they stay conscious and aware during the falling asleep process.

SP is something you either experience or not. Most of the people don't. So waiting for it, or making it a certain point in your attempt that you need to get to, or get past, or experience, is detrimental. 

If you have not experienced SP so far, while falling asleep normally, then you are quite unlikely to experience it during a WILD attempt.

But it makes no difference if you experience SP or not, or if you think you have/have not experienced it. You just go through your WILD attempt, until you enter your dream lucidly.

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## Sivason

That looks awesome Gab! We can use it just like that, or you can adjust it as you see fit. It looks great. Thanks.

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## Sivason

I have rewritten the intro and my contribution. I think I have improved them both, so please take a look at the new versions.

Sageous, I am ok with using your post exactly like it is. Three paragraphs was just a rough guideline. You only have 4 so if you want it can go in, as is.

Mzzck, we have 3 contributions, so we are half way there. Melanieb and Ophila Blue are not sure they will contribute, until they see what we have all come up with. So I guess your next. When you submit something, then they can decide if they want to be one of the 6 expert opinions.

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## Sageous

Sivason:

Thanks for catering to my laziness and time constraints, and for understanding that 4 paragraphs is about as short as I go (the rewrite, were there one, likely would have been longer); go ahead and use what I got.  Besides, if you squint really hard it kinda sorta fits the template Mzzkc offered, so maybe it is all set.

Looking forward to seeing and promoting the finished product!

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## Mzzkc

Could we maybe get a personal testimony from hermine_hesse and anyone else who has been _diagnosed_ with sleep paralysis?

A few first hand accounts like that would greatly improve the guide.

What's more, I think we should really be collaborating in a shared Google doc so we can track changes, allow commenting, and edit as a group.

If you PM me your Google account name (the one you use for youtube, gmail, g+, docs, etc.), I'll set one up with the basic formatting and add you all as contributors/owners. It will also be open to the public for viewing (not editing).

P.S. Don't worry about the bbcode, if you aren't fluent; just format in Rich Text and I'll fix things up for easy copy-pasta as things progress.

P.S.S. This thread should still be used for idea generation and what have you, but having the doc will protect us from losing progress due to potential DV server issues.

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## melanieb

We have DV server issues?

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## Mzzkc

> We have DV server issues?



Every respectable company that handles a large volume of network traffic (internally or otherwise) has server issues. In DV's past, some data has been lost because of this.

I don't know the current architecture (since the latest switch), but unless they're handling redundancy in a RACS-like fashion, or backing up the disc(s) every hour, a crash could result in lost work.

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## Sivason

I am sure I am ok with the idea, but lets worry about that after we get a thread together. I am going to need to set up a google account, and  have you walk me through every ting. I don't mind the idea of first hand accounts of an actual sleep disorder. I am sure it would add intrest to it, snd help people understand what it is actually like.

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## Sivason

Thanks for your help so far everyone. I will be putting the thread together Tuesday morning. I need to complete it and move on before I become less interested. I want to keep it simple.

I have 4 testimonials so far. If you (anyone with lots of experience in WILD) post a potential contribution on this thread, it may be included in the final product, tuesday. I will leave it unstickied for a few days, to let the other staff members decide if it would be good as a sticky.

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## cmind

I would have said something, but honestly you guys pretty much said everything I thought needed to be said. All I would say is that I, too, have not experienced sleep paralysis in relation to WILD. I have experienced SP by itself, but WILDing during this SP would have been impossible because my state of mind from the non-lucid dream I was waking up from was still present -- even lying paralyzed in bed, I continued to be non-lucid. Becoming lucid in SP, for me, would be something more akin to a DILD than a WILD.

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## Sivason

Thanks Cmind, that is interesting, and will be considered for the thread.

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## AURON

more SP - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Lets find Kaomea...or not. - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

I get it all the time...there's a "sp*" tag in my DJ...sometimes HH/HI happen with them.  I've been getting it all my life, and the basic thing that happens is I'm either falling asleep, or waking up and suddenly I can't move.  I can open my eyes, but that's about it. My heart feels like it speeds up, and I feel like I can't breathe. Anxiety, caffeine and bad sleeping habits increase my frequency of having them. I have turned SP into WILDs, sometimes SP shows up randomly when attempting a WILD, and rarely I'll have a normal WILD without SP.

I have turned random SP episodes into WILDs by simply relaxing through it, and visualizing the scene or simply getting out of bed, when everything is over. The visualization part helps relieve some of the crazy things that go on during the 2-3 minute time frame that it happens, and it also, helps start a scene in a different location.  Since everyone's eyes can open during SP the dreamer is more likely to have the dream start out in there room.


I helped create the official definition of REM Atonia, and Sleep Paralysis that's found in the WIKI.  I'm not sure what else you're looking for, but feel free to ask me any questions.

EDIT:

Also post #4

http://www.dreamviews.com/f41/verdic...0/#post1942590

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## melanieb

I took the material already posted and rearranged a few things. I made some changes to wording, grammar and punctuation.

What I'm posting here is by no means perfect but I tried not to take too much away from the 'feeling' of the material.

Sivason, I added some of your personal experience from the intro into the area where you provide expert testimony. It could probably use cleaning up but I didn't want to destroy the feeilng you were trying to convey.

Take a look and see what you think. 




Many of the staff and long term members of DreamViews have decided that a serious misunderstanding about Sleep Paralysis (SP) has become a huge stumbling block for new lucid dreamers. We have had to answer more questions about SP than nearly anything else. This guide was written in response to that problem.


*First, what is SP (Sleep Paralysis)? :* The true meaning of the term is a certain medical condition which affects the ability to wake up or go to sleep properly. People with this condition feel as if they are trapped while either going to sleep or waking up. They have almost no strength to get up and often have a fearful experience. Sleep Paralysis is a sleep disorder. A basic search of readily-available information reveals about *1 in 250 people experience true SP on a frequent basis.*


A man named *Dr. Stephen LaBerge* is very well known for his clinical research into lucid dreaming. The following article written by LaBerge may be the starting place for the current state of confusion regarding Sleep Paralysis. Please take a minute to read it over, LaBerge Article on Sleep Paralysis.


In the article Dr. LaBerge discusses Sleep paralysis and its effects. He attempts to reinforce the idea that the experience is not to be feared and is a rare event. He also suggests that based on one man’s experience, someone stuck in SP might be able to transition into a lucid dream, the likely source for the confusion. Current suspicion is that someone wrote a guide telling the sufferers of SP how they could convert the terrifying state into a WILD (Wake Initiated Lucid Dream). *Unfortunately this is not useful to 249 out of every 250 lucid dreamers!* The idea was spread incorrectly as a normal WILD event. *Sleep Paralysis (SP) is not a normal part of a WILD event and should not be a consideration in WILD attempts.*





> * The Lucid Dreaming community has been calling REM Atonia by the wrong name of Sleep Paralysis (SP) and we should stop doing it.*



The primary factor for the term getting so misused is people on dreaming forums like this one trying to explain how to correctly achieve a WILD. When people join the forum they often say, “Someone told me I had to reach SP.” We would reply, “You do not reach a point when you cannot move. SP is what stops your sleeping body from acting out dreams.” *That is not actually true. The normal condition that prevents you from jerking around in bed, during a dream is properly called REM Atonia.* The LD community has been calling REM Atonia by the wrong name (SP) and we should stop doing it.

*So what does REM Atonia mean?* It is a change in chemicals and brain function that causes your body to remain still while you dream. *REM Atonia does not prevent you from waking yourself up and moving normally* . That is why it is not true Sleep Paralysis. People are experiencing awareness during sleep of a normal nightly process, one that does not truly prevent you from moving. Some people can actually feel the chemical change begin. It may feel like you are not connected to your body and many people describe it as a heavy-blanket feeling. It may feel like you are on narcotics, and moving would take a conscious effort.

*Here is why we talk about it (incorrectly calling it SP.)* In a WILD you are attempting to stay aware while your body falls asleep. You will be able to experience the stages of sleep and one event you can sometimes experience is REM Atonia. Some methods of WILD use this as a mile post in the WILD process. 


Here is what six well known experts and staff have to say in support of you all not worrying about SP and moving on to some useful material.


- *Sivason:*

I have used the term SP incorrectly in the past to describe a state where the WILDer experiences the chemical changes of REM Atonia. In my method of WILDing you observe the progress of your sleep, and when you feel REM Atonia, you shift what your mind is doing. Many people call REM Atonia SP, but I intend to never use the term SP to describe it again. It is not hard to type out 'REM Atonia' instead of SP. Using the term SP causes everyone to become confused. I use a system that does require awareness of REM Atonia, and I will continue to teach it, but let’s all stop calling it SP.
In my WILDs, for instance, when I experience REM Atonia, I change my mindset from an anchor (counting, mantra) to trying visualization to induce a dream. * People just started calling it SP. Again, it is using the term incorrectly and adds to the confusion. Let’s all agree to stop using the term as it just complicates everything.*

By learning what each part of your sleep feels like you can improve your chances of pulling off a WILD. If you are reading a tutorial from now on I suggest you take the term SP to mean REM Atonia or awareness that such a state has been reached. That is unless it involves you supposedly being able to start moving in a dream, because you are supposedly paralyzed; I would laugh those off and find a new tutorial altogether, if it mentions that kind of stuff. It is only going to work for 1 in 250 of us.

*I have successfully been using WILD methods for over 20 years, but on no occasion have I been even slightly paralyzed!* I sometimes feel as if moving would be hard but that is a natural feeling because my body has fallen asleep. I can always get my body to move if needed. Do not worry about SP and move on to some training that actually works. Unless you were experiencing SP before you wanted to learn lucid dreaming, you will probably never experience it and can forget about it.

Please stop using the term SP and forget the idea entirely! You will not ever reach actual SP, so let's move forward, leaving the days of SP confusion behind us. *Call REM Atonia by its true name, describe what you mean if it is not REM Atonia you have been using SP for, or coin a phrase that you can use instead.*

- *Sageous:*

First, I have had many thousands of WILD's, and never once cared about SP, much less looked for it. No one should.

SP is not a mystical or unusual event by any measure because REM Atonia happens naturally every time you are in REM -- it must occur, or else we’d all be flailing about in our beds, or sleepwalking, or shouting, or … well, you get it. That you are consciously aware of it because it remained switched on a bit too long or switched on early does not make it special, unless you consider your ability to defy nature and notice it as something special -- which is a pretty cool thing, I suppose. 

SP is also not a goal in WILD. Let me repeat that: SP is not a goal in WILD. One more time for the back rows: SP is not a goal in WILD! You should never, ever, be trying to “achieve SP” if your ultimate goal is lucid dreaming. To do so is to elevate a normal condition of sleep to a point where it is all you pay attention to and then, invariably, your chances of Lucid Dreaming will fade behind the empty excitement of SP.

It is critical for WILD that you understand that SP is not dangerous; it is not an invasion by monsters or your body failing you or a break from reality, or any of the other things noted on the forums by breathless dreamers who encounter SP unprepared. It is just a natural bodily function that you happen to notice because you possess waking awareness at a time when nature never intended you to be awake. So if you ever encounter SP (I rarely do) just relax, acknowledge it, and move on!

Most of the time SP isn’t really even SP: People who are talking about their experiences in SP are really talking about their experiences in NREM sleep, which can include the vibrations, sensory deprivation, and other assorted bells and whistles associated with SP these days. This is sort of a shame, because consciously navigating NREM sleep is an adventure unto itself (and, BTW, the place the Tibetan sleep yogis like to visit) and to belittle it by calling it SP is to miss out on an otherwise good thing.

- *Gab:*

I have had 36 WILDs and 20 DEILDs and many more attempts. In 10 months I have never experienced any full body paralysis (SP) when WILDing.

Any sensation you are experiencing during your WILD attempt is a part of the falling asleep process. You can feel vibrations, floating feeling, sounds, acceleration, your body being distorted, heaviness and being relaxed.

It happens every time but we normally don't notice it because by then we are asleep. Lucid dreamers going for a WILD notice it because they stay conscious and aware during the falling asleep process.

SP is something you either experience or not. Most people don't so waiting for it or making it a certain point in your attempt that you need to get to, or get past, or experience, is detrimental. 

If you have not experienced SP while falling asleep normally then you are quite unlikely to experience it during a WILD attempt.

It makes no difference if you experience SP or not, or if you think you have/have not experienced it. You just go through your WILD attempt, until you enter your dream lucidly.

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## AURON

Mel...SP can occur while a person is waking up *or* going to sleep. Information wise, everything else looks good.

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## melanieb

> Mel...SP can occur while a person is waking up *or* going to sleep.



I do know that from what I read ages ago. My edits above were mainly concerned with making the material of others readable and understandable to a broad audience.

If you would like to suggest an edit please post it here.   :smiley:    I'm not sure which sentence you are referring to and my kids are loud now so I am a bit distracted.

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## AURON

*First, what is SP (Sleep Paralysis)? :* The true meaning of the term is a certain medical condition which affects the ability to wake up or, go to sleep properly. People with this condition partially wake up but feel as if they are trapped while either going to sleep or waking up. They have almost no strength to get up and often have a fearful experience. Sleep Paralysis is a sleep disorder. A basic search for information reveals about *1 in 250 people experience true SP on a frequent basis.*

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## melanieb

I added in your edits, Auron.

I will remind everyone that changes can be made at any time and the whole document can be entirely rewritten if you find any of it objectionable. This was merely an easy way to put it all together.  

Even if there are server issues our work will not disappear. I simply did my work in Microsoft Word and copied changes to the document, including Auron's.

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## Sivason

> I added in your edits, Auron.
> 
> I will remind everyone that changes can be made at any time and the whole document can be entirely rewritten if you find any of it objectionable. This was merely an easy way to put it all together.  
> 
> Even if there are server issues our work will not disappear. I simply did my work in Microsoft Word and copied changes to the document, including Auron's.





It looks great. thanks. I like every part of it so far. So, it turns out that Auron, is one of the few who actually have SP as a condition and has used it to enter LDs. He easily meets my criteria for an expert, so I am crossing my fingers he will be the source of our fourth expert opinion.

How about it Auron? You have a point of view that would be awesome to include. Some people do have true SP and hearing that you have made it work for you would be encouragement for them.

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## nina

> Many of the staff and long term members of DreamViews have decided that a serious misunderstanding about Sleep Paralysis (SP) has become a huge stumbling block for new lucid dreamers



Please edit this. So far I have seen 2 Dream Guides and 1 Moderator post in this thread. This does not equate to "many of the staff"...and I actually disagree with several of the things being said in here and do not want this generally associated as being representative of how staff feels.





> *First, what is SP (Sleep Paralysis)? :* The true meaning of the term is a certain medical condition which affects the ability to wake up or go to sleep properly. People with this condition feel as if they are trapped while either going to sleep or waking up. They have almost no strength to get up and often have a fearful experience. Sleep Paralysis is a sleep disorder.[/B]



A more technical definition maybe? It sounds like this was directed at children.






> *Unfortunately this is not useful to 249 out of every 250 lucid dreamers!*



Incorrect. According to your statistic "1 in 250 people experience true SP on a frequent basis"...but you have not told me anything about the source population? Regular People? Lucid dreamers? Narcoleptics? Where are you getting this statistic? Wouldn't it be more relevant to tell us how many of these people are lucid dreamers? The amount of lucid dreamers that experience SP frequently would be a far more relevant statistic. The statistic you provided...is not, so making speaking generalizations that discussing SP in relation to lucid dreaming is useless is not a very open minded approach. What about DEILD? DEILD is directly related to SP...and I'd say it is of much use to discuss sleep paralysis to lucid dreamers. 





> The primary factor for the term getting so misused is people on dreaming forums like this one trying to explain how to correctly achieve a WILD. When people join the forum they often say, “Someone told me I had to reach SP.” We would reply, “You do not reach a point when you cannot move.



Really? You can move around when you are dreaming? Would you mind video taping this? I find it hard to believe. And if you CAN move around while you are sleeping, then you have a sleep disorder. Your body is _supposed_ to be paralyzed, that's what REM atonia IS. You will NOT enter the dreaming state until your body is in REM atonia (muscle atonia is the same in REM atonia and SP). 





> *So what does REM Atonia mean?* It is a change in chemicals and brain function that causes your body to remain still while you dream. *REM Atonia does not prevent you from waking yourself up and moving normally* . That is why it is not true Sleep Paralysis. People are experiencing awareness during sleep of a normal nightly process, one that does not truly prevent you from moving. Some people can actually feel the chemical change begin. It may feel like you are not connected to your body and many people describe it as a heavy-blanket feeling. It may feel like you are on narcotics, and moving would take a conscious effort.



So what is "false" sleep paralysis if you are calling something "true" sleep paralysis? Also, for some people, SP is a normal nightly process, again avoid making overgeneralizations. Also, can you explain how REM atonia does not prevent you from moving? Because technically, that's the point of REM atonia, to prevent you from moving. I see little sense in what is being stated above.

I appreciate that this thread is intended to be helpful to new members or those learning how to WILD, and I do agree that it would be more correct to state REM atonia when talking about WILDing rather than SP...however, I also feel that there is misinformation/misunderstanding here that needs to be cleared up before it is presented as anything representative of "staff" or "experts". Also, it needs to be a little more scientific and better researched imo.

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## Sivason

Nina, I would love your help with the thread if you are interested. All of the stuff you read from MelanieB was written by me. Here, check out this DJ post, 09-02-12 DEILD Testing REM atonia - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views 
 I can always choose to move my body despite how intense an LD I am having, and I can wake myself and start moving my real body instantly. If you throw water on any dreamer they normally will jump write up. If REM atonia is the same as SP then I should not be able to wake myself instantly from LDs and normal dreamers should not be able to respond to their alarm clocks.

I do not mind editing the part about many staff. In the end I do not care if some one feels this should not be a sticky thread. *The issue is supposed to be very very straight forward and simple. I do not want the thread being a complex guide.* _It is 100% true, and I doubt anyone will argue, that true full body paralysis is not experienced by many many WILDers._ 

1 in 250 is a rough conversion from 0.4% of the population. Do you want to find a more relevant number of people with reoccuring, frequent true medical sleep paralysis? If so we will probably be willing to use what ever statistic you provide.

To clarify, we are not talking about any Lucid dream hobbiest term 'SP' we are talking about sleep paralysis as it would be defined if you searched general medical refrences. It is not the same, and is a source of confusion. Why use a term if it is already being used for something else and is mis-leading?

The point is only a few get true SP. If some get true SP and can use it to WILD then I want to have opinions posted by them (if they meet the criteria, which you way more than do). I was aiming for 6 expert opinions and still have only 3. *If you would be so kind as to help make the thread work, and offer your opinion as an expert it would be awesome!* The only opinion that would not work well, is if someone suggests every/most people can induce a true paralytic state.

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## nina

Rem atonia is paralysis.

Maybe you should try collecting actual data from lucid dreamers. Create a poll and ask people if they experience paralysis at any point during a WILD. I think most people do, and I think your assumption that most WILDers are going to be like you and not experience some sort of paralysis is inaccurate. Also the fact that people are more likely to experience SP in between WILDs, just shows that there are subtleties involved here that are not so black and white as you are trying to make things seem. It is not unusual for a term to be used incorrectly. Consider subconscious and unconscious. The correct term for what most people refer to here as their subconscious is unconscious. But it's generally accepted that people are more familiar with the term subconscious, so that's why people continue to use it, for purposes of understanding. 

Sleep paralysis is simply a condition that results from awareness that REM atonia has continued longer than it should have after waking, or awareness of REM atonia paralyzing your body as it prepares to dream. Therefore sleep paralysis is a direct product of REM atonia. The terms overlap. It's not quite as simple as you are trying to make it. 

I'm all for the promotion of using the term REM atonia in place of SP for WILD tutorials and such, but you still have to acknowledge that SP is, for many people, still a part of WILDs/LDs and not dismiss it as merely some rare medical condition, because that is untrue. The majority of people I have spoken to here have experienced SP at some point.

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## Sivason

So, in your WILD experience have  you encountered true paralysis, where moving was not an option. I do not mean a lead blanket narcotic effect (I think we all experience that) but a true inability to move if you needed to?
If so, do you ever experience it/ did you experience it prior to your lucid dreaming skills?

In your many many years as one of our trusted leaders, have you not also run into dozens or humdreds of people who thought they must become paralysised or they were WILDing wrong? 

Part of my awareness about REM atonia, is the ability I have cultivated over 25 years to remain almost fully concious (maybe not rare/ maybe rare) through each phase of sleep. Not just going from wake into a dream like DEILD, but maintaining near full awareness through say an hout of nREM, then REM and back put of it. At no point, if my wife called out my name, would I fail to be able to get up out of bed.


I will start a poll thread today. I want to know cases of true (I can not move if I NEEDED to) cases of SP. Another answer will be a state of heavy blanket, concious effort to move or no  real sedation of movement at all. I will also put an answer for I have little experience with WILD. Off to work now, but I will post the poll thread link soon.

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## Sageous

Wow.

Well Sivason, the gods of DV have spoken: SP stays, period.  I hope you continue to fight the good fight to end the festival of misinformation surrounding SP on these forums, thereby bringing new dreamers closer to actual lucidity, and more experienced dreamers back to their roots.  But you may be doomed to revising your definition of SP right back to what it was when you started.  That is a shame.


*Nina:*

I must join Sivason by repeating that I too have never, _ever_ been unable to move after noticing that I was still in REM Atonia (I woke ahead of my body).  How can that be, given that I've been doing this for well over 30 years and have had thousands of WILDs and DEILDs? Shouldn't I have gotten stuck at least once? Could this be because I developed my LD'ing skills on my own years before Internet forums and all this SP mythology existed, years before even LaBerge cared a wit about SP?  Could it be that the voluminous Internet-based SP mythology has created an _expectation_ of SP in Newbies and Veterans alike? Hmm...

Yes, REM Atonia is a powerful thing, but so are my consciousness, my reticular system, and my fundamental awareness throughout the experience that this is my body and it is not going to do anything to hurt me or hold me if I need to do something else. I'm not sure why you are so adamant about holding to the fallacy that SP is a force to be reckoned with, rather than just another factor of sleep.  Yes, you did properly define SP as the conscious recognition of REM Atonia, but your posted exceptions and laundry list of often difficult corrections seem to betray that you are fine with the more popular definitions.  

Yes, the novelty of consciously experiencing REM Atonia is complicated, and will vary from dreamer to dreamer, but I think that is the point in all this: That complication has led dreamers and would-be experts to misinterpret their passages through NREM and their moments noticing REM Atonia, and those misinterpretations have taken on a life of their own, to the point where a pillar of the DV forums has deemed it okay to call SP important  simply because everyone _thinks_ it is.  Is that a good thing?  Not for the many dreamers who come to this site looking for sincere guidance.

*The trouble with a poll is obvious to me:*  All it will do is continue to fuel and codify the misunderstandings about SP.  Yes, you'll get a high percentage of dreamers who are _sure_ that they experience SP regularly, and many will say you must "reach it" in order for a WILD to be successful.  I think Sivason's whole point about tapping the experience of dreamers with long-term success sans SP was to show that the conventional wisdom in this regard is _wrong_, no matter how popular it might be.  I have a feeling you already know that, Nina, yet you want to return this endeavor to a popularity contest rather than an attempt to break the withering falsehood that SP matters.  Is that really what DV wants to do?  If so, what does that say about DV's opinion of accomplished dreamers' experience and wisdom?  Do you want us to stop posting what we believe, or, more importantly, stop sharing what we _know_?  

Sorry for my tone, Nina.  Please keep in mind that I respect your experience and wisdom, and that everything I say was meant in the best of faith and in an effort to support Sivason's action -- an action that I apparently think is far more important to the successful education of new dreamers and to the long-term credibility of this site than do you. Could it be I misunderstood? I hope so! At any rate, if you're still with me, please forgive any unintended callousness.

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## gab

> I'm all for the promotion of using the term REM atonia in place of SP for WILD tutorials and such, but you still have to acknowledge that SP is, for many people, still a part of WILDs/LDs and not dismiss it as merely some rare medical condition, because that is untrue. The majority of people I have spoken to here have experienced SP at some point.



Sorry to butt in on your conversation. 

I don't think we are trying to say, that SP doesn't exist. What we are trying to do is dispell the myth, that you have to go through SP if you want to WILD.

This started from many posts of noobs coming to this site and their first post would be "Can't enter SP". They are obviously under the impression, that they need to have SP, or they don't get a WILD. If they were routinely having SP before starting to WILD, they wouldn't have to ask how to enter SP. But since they have not encounter SP so far, it's safe to say, they will not while WILDing either, or at least they shouldn't be aiming at achieving SP.

Second issue is, when people claiming to have SP describe it as feeling of heaviness, floating, vibrations, hallucinations. I think that's just the transition sensations you get when going from one sleep stage to next. Even this is not experienced by everybody, or all the time.

People who describe their SP as most terrifying experience of their lives, when they couldn't move if their life depended on it, accompanied with visions of intruders, I think that's THE SP.

And the term _true SP_ is a made up term to differenciate the immobilizing state from SP wrongly described by posters as vibrations and such.

I did have "true" SP only twice. Both times upon awakening in the morning. Both times I could not move at all and remember strugling to open my eyes or talk or move at all. On my second one, I was on a table surrounded by "aliens".

And during my last WILD I just entered LD. I was walking down the hallway ready to explore the next room, when I noticed my cat IWL putting her paws on my sofa, which usually means, she is about to use me as a stepping stone on her way down from the desk. So I lifted one arm to cover my chest, while still walking down the hallway and entering the room, which was really cluttered and I was deciding if I should check it out or move on. Then I lifted my second arm to discourage my cat from jumping on me.

The point is, I think, that people should not be trying to enter SP. You either enter it or not, but it doesn't matter either way, for the purpose of lucid dreaming.

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## melanieb

> I will start a poll thread today. I want to know cases of true (I can not move if I NEEDED to) cases of SP. Another answer will be a state of heavy blanket, concious effort to move or no  real sedation of movement at all. I will also put an answer for I have little experience with WILD. Off to work now, but I will post the poll thread link soon.




I think it would also be good to send a PM to each staff member for their contributions and opinions. Additionally you can link everyone to the debate thread which spawned this work thread so they can see what prompted this effort.

I'm mainly here to make your work comprehensible to all without tearing it up and making it my writing. I will be glad to help with research efforts and check statistics. Nina brought up some good points, info I also considered while reading your material.

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## nina

> I have a feeling you already know that, Nina, yet you want to return this endeavor to a popularity contest rather than an attempt to break the withering falsehood that SP matters.  Is that really what DV wants to do?  If so, what does that say about DV's opinion of accomplished dreamers' experience and wisdom?  Do you want us to stop posting what we believe, or, more importantly, stop sharing what we _know_?



You are accusing me of wanting to turn this into a "popularity contest"...are you serious? I would never have bothered to make a post in this thread if I hadn't wanted to do one simple thing, help dispel misinformation and avoid further misunderstandings. Nothing pisses me off more than misinformation, except maybe arrogance. And I'm pretty offended by your completely unfounded and immature accusations, not to mention the sardonic tone reverberating from every sentence in your reply. 

I really don't have time for this headache...I was only trying to help. It's clear that you have absolutely zero need for my help or feedback since you already think you know everything there is to know about the subject and the only opinion that matters is your own. Did you ever bother to stop and think that maybe you are the exception, not the rule? Maybe most people DO experience paralysis...just not you. So telling people that they WON'T or shouldn't expect to feel paralysis during REM atonia seems misinformed. I'm not saying to keep calling anything SP that isn't SP. Did you even bother to read the part where I stated that I am in favor of using the correct term REM atonia? Or anything else I said for that matter. The fact that you would even take what I said and claim that I am trying to make this about me somehow just goes to show me how warped your view really is. I need to get back to studying for exams, so I'll respond to the rest of it later (gab your response was especially helpful thank you).

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## Sivason

> You are accusing me of wanting to turn this into a "popularity contest"...are you serious? I would never have bothered to make a post in this thread if I hadn't wanted to do one simple thing, help dispel misinformation and avoid further misunderstandings. Nothing pisses me off more than misinformation, except maybe arrogance. And I'm pretty offended by your completely unfounded and immature accusations, not to mention the sardonic tone reverberating from every sentence in your reply. 
> 
> I really don't have time for this headache...I was only trying to help. It's clear that you have absolutely zero need for my help or feedback since you already think you know everything there is to know about the subject and the only opinion that matters is your own. Did you ever bother to stop and think that maybe you are the exception, not the rule? Maybe most people DO experience paralysis...just not you. So telling people that they WON'T or shouldn't expect to feel paralysis during REM atonia seems misinformed. I'm not saying to keep calling anything SP that isn't SP. Did you even bother to read the part where I stated that I am in favor of using the correct term REM atonia? Or anything else I said for that matter. The fact that you would even take what I said and claim that I am trying to make this about me somehow just goes to show me how warped your view really is. I need to get back to studying for exams, so I'll respond to the rest of it later (gab your response was especially helpful thank you).



Sorry Nina, I do not think Sageous meant a popularity contest, refering to you as a DV personality. I think he meant the popularity of one idea over another. I think and hope it was a terrible misunderstanding.

When he says the "DV Gods" there is some truth in that. Really, what members who have been active at all lately are more 'famous' or respected than you? Any project or thought you chose to oppose could not suceed.

I am sorry Sageous pissed you off, but If you supported the thread (after needed changes) and gave a statement as 1 of the 6 experts, it would be amazing! You would be able to state that you use SP and give any info you wish. The only thing I would ask, is one sentence supporting the idea that "SP is not a needed part of WILD."

If you feel it is a needed and expected part of WILD then I am confused and suprised, but that would be your right to an opinion.

I am not at all sure that many WILDers experience a state where they can not move. Please excuse the extreme nature of this question, but I am trying to determine if we could possably be talking about the same thing. When you WILD, if a man entered your house and started to walk off with your child or sibling, and they called out for help,,, do you honestly mean "you could not move in response?" As in you would have to let the kidnapping happen, and later tell the FBI "I was stuck in SP."

Also, did you experience cases of SP unrelated to lucid dreaming or WILD?

One last comment for Nina, I would love your help on this. However, you say you feel SP is far more common than not (or may be), but I have yet to find a single person willing to make a statement that they experience true bodily paralysis, and I have 3 that say they do not. Auron, says he has, but does not imply it is a needed or normal part of his LDing. Looking for both sides, but at the moment it looks like 3 to 1-ish.


Gab, I can also move my body during a vivid REM LD, I have developed the ability to do so with out waking up. It is just like you described with your cat. I do not know if that is rare or not. If I am in an LD and something external draws my attention, I can stay in the lD and slowly move my external body, while staying lucid. That is the method I used in the DJ entry about testing REM atonia.

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## WDr

Sorry wrong thread...

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## melanieb

I've been keeping up with things. 

Nina, I do hope you will contribute more as you have time. I know you're busy with school midterms.

I will make a new edit on some of the material tomorrow, just to keep up with some of the extra information as it evolves. I'll also try and find some good info for reference. 

Please link any references you find here. They will help.

I will also look over the debate thread again. I would also like to get Mzzkc to post something.

Catch you on this tomorrow.

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## Mzzkc

I did some editing of the intro. Don't have any more time today, but I don't think the thread is quite at the point where I can throw my full endorsement behind it. The stuff regarding REM atonia is just...odd, and contrary to my current understanding of how that whole thing goes down.

Feel free to use these edits, though:





> Some of the staff, and long-term DreamViews members, believe that a serious misunderstanding regarding Sleep Paralysis (SP) has become a huge stumbling block for new lucid dreamers. Due to this widespread confusion, we’ve found ourselves answering more questions about SP than nearly anything else. This guide was written in response to that problem.
> 
> 
> *First, what is SP (Sleep Paralysis)? 
> 
> Put simply:* sleep paralysis is a medical condition wherein the victim is conscious during full-body atonia during REM and occasionally NREM sleep. People with this condition are, quite literally, trapped within their body as they slip into sleep or awaken from a dream. They cannot move any part of their body, except their eyes, and often experience some degree of fear and/or hallucinations. *Sleep Paralysis is a sleep disorder;* a basic Internet search reveals about *1 in 250 people experience SP on a frequent basis.* [citation needed]
> 
> *Dr. Stephen LaBerge*, a man well known for his clinical research into lucid dreaming, and co-author of the book “Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming”, wrote the following article:  LaBerge Article on Sleep Paralysis.
> 
> ...

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## Sivason

*We have Auron's offical contribution. Thanks Auron!*




A lot of people on this forum have reported that they have experienced the feeling that they can't move their body when they try to WILD. I'm pretty sure the majority of them have Isolated Sleep Paralysis (Body won't move while in NREM either waking or going to sleep, and if a person tries to move it's going to take everything in that persons will to break out of it. Also, that person *DOES NOT* have any other sleep disorders) which is true SP. When this happens, HH and HI can occur, but doesn't define it, and that's where a lot of people get things mixed up.

A WILD is a very hard technique for the great majority because of the discipline involved. However, people with isolated sleep paralysis (the population who have had the feeling where they can't move at all when they're going to sleep or waking up *numerous times* in their lives without attempting a WILD) tend to have an advantage. They know exactly how far they are in a transition because ISP acts as a good indicator to where they are in their phase, because it generally carries over and becomes REM Atonia.

The moderators can try to all limit the amount of inaccurate information out there, but it's best that the knowledgeable people who care about this subject take a stand. *I'm going to address the people who've actually gone through it (paralysis), and make sure that what they know has happened to them wasn't something that's all in their heads.* The bottom line is that a handful of people actually experience the inability to move while trying to WILD. They also experience it while trying to go to sleep and wake up. 


Tutorials that mention SP often do not say, "hey is this is a WILD guide for people who suffer from isolated sleep paralysis" No...most of the time they generalize that "SP" is the next step. So that part has to be taken out or rewritten. It's the very reason why this thread was created in the first place. To address false information, and have it corrected and deleted. So the misinformed people who look at things will be enlightened along with the people who haven't read a single tutorial.


When I initially started out, I would wait solely for the onset of ISP to kick in because I could feel it. Like I said...it's a great indicator of when it's go time. I would just ride it out, and when it stopped. I would get out of my bed and literally be in the dream. Unfortunately, it doesn't work all the time. Over time, I noticed some of my WILDs didn't involve ISP whatsoever. That's when I began to differentiate the two. It could also the reason why a lot of people get caught up in talking about "waiting for sp". There have been many instances where I've gone through the transitional phase and sat there in darkness, because I was waiting for ISP. What I should have been doing is getting up out of bed and RCing. 


more SP - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Lets find Kaomea...or not. - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views



I get true paralysis (ISP) all the time...there's a "sp*" tag in my DJ...sometimes HH/HI happen with them. I've been getting it all my life, and the basic thing that happens is I'm either falling asleep, or waking up and suddenly I can't move. I can open my eyes, but that's about it. My heart feels like it speeds up, and I feel like I can't breathe. Anxiety, caffeine and bad sleeping habits increase my frequency of having them. I have turned SP into WILDs, sometimes SP shows up randomly when attempting a WILD, and rarely I'll have a normal WILD without SP.

I have turned random SP episodes into WILDs by simply relaxing through it, and visualizing the scene or simply getting out of bed, when everything is over. The visualization part helps relieve some of the crazy things that go on during the 2-3 minute time frame that it happens, and it also, helps start a scene in a different location. Since everyone's eyes can open during SP the dreamer is more likely to have the dream start out in there room.



http://www.dreamviews.com/f41/verdic...0/#post1942590



I don't know how much of my success is dependent on SP itself. All I generally endorse when people ask me about WILDs (that doesn't seem to be mentioned in guides) is to have a consistent sleep schedule...IE if a person wakes up at 7AM during work/school, they need to do that every day* including* their days off so their sleep phases are close to textbook as possible for WBTBs. That and practice DILDs as a backup (roughly I have a 50/50 DILD/WILD ratio in over 300 lucids)

In closing I think the "sp" stuff people normally bring up, is just a transitional phase (HI, HH bells and whistles) before the dream starts. However, some people are really experiencing ISP during that occurrence, and that needs to be addressed.

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## Sivason

New intro rough draft, addressing Nina's concerns, and using some of Mzzck's stuff, and a edit provided by Sageous. Let's work out an intro that does not suggest SP is useless or seem biased. In each expert opinion, I want each person to tell it like they see it. If the expert finds it a waste of time, then say so, or if you do value it, the same applies.





Some of the staff, and long-term DreamViews members, believe that a serious misunderstanding regarding Sleep Paralysis (SP) has become a huge stumbling block for new lucid dreamers. *This misunderstanding centers on two things: First, SP has been incorrectly defined across the forums; second, a widespread belief, based on faulty definitions, that SP is a unique and threatening event that must be reached in order to WILD. Neither is true.* Due to this widespread confusion, we’ve found ourselves answering more questions about SP than nearly anything else. This guide was written in response to that problem. 

First, what is SP (Sleep Paralysis)? 
*The simplified version:*  The true meaning of the term is a certain medical condition which affects the ability to wake up or go to sleep properly. People with this condition feel as if they are trapped while either going to sleep or waking up. They have almost no strength to get up and often have a fearful experience. Sleep Paralysis is a medical condition refered to as a parasomnia .
*A more scientific version:*
•	Sleep paralysis is a REM sleep parasomnia characterized by an inability to perform voluntary movements associated with marked anxiety and occurs either at sleep onset (hypnagogic form) or on awakening (hypnopompic form).
•	Sleep paralysis attacks last some minutes, do not involve respiratory and ocular muscles, are fully reversible, and often are accompanied by terrifying dream images.
•	Sleep paralysis may form part of the narcoleptic tetrad, but isolated sleep paralysis occurs independently from narcolepsy, sometimes in a familial form.
•	 Sleep paralysis is polysomnographically characterized by the presence of mixed REM-like and wake EEG or EMG features.Polysomnography, if performed, reveals the event to occur in a dissociated state with elements of REM sleep and wakefulness.
•	 Hallucinatory experiences may be present but are not essential to the diagnosis.
Info from post #1, here http://www.dreamviews.com/f11/sleep-...ations-136721/ 

* The main point we wish to make, is just this! Sleep paralysis may occur to some people while attempting a WILD, but is not a required part of the WILD experience. If you get it, we want you to know what you are experiencing; if you do not, don't worry about it, you can still learn to WILD with the best of them!* 


Actual SP is a condition affecting less than half of the population (7.6% general, more with sub-groups).

 Here is some data:
Aggregating across studies (total N=36,533), 7.6% of the general population, 28.3% of students, and 31.9% of psychiatric patients experienced at least one episode of sleep paralysis. Taken from post #2, here http://www.dreamviews.com/f11/sleep-...ations-136721/ 


Dr. Stephen LaBerge, a man well known for his clinical research into lucid dreaming, and co-author of the book “Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming”, wrote the following article: http://www.dreamviews.com/f11/laberg...alysis-136535/

Some of us have reason to believe this article may be the very origin of the current confusion surrounding Sleep Paralysis. If you haven’t already, please take a minute to read it over. 

To summarize: in the article Dr. LaBerge discusses Sleep paralysis and its effects. He attempts to reinforce the idea that the experience is not to be feared, as it is a rare event. Dr. LaBerge also suggests that based on one man’s experience, a subject stuck in SP may be able to transition into a lucid dream. That postulation is quite probably the source from which today’s prevalent misunderstanding arose. 
Well meaning people took that special case at face value, and guides insisting that SP was the gateway to WILD (Wake Initiated Lucid Dream) began popping up like wildflowers. Unfortunately this is not useful at least half of us.

Because it is a condition effecting less than half of the population, it should not be the focus of WILD attempts for the majority of the population. If however you do experience SP, methods exist to use it. Do not try to reach it or even think about it in general, unless you have experienced it,  then look into it more.


Of course, the primary factor perpetuating the term’s misuse lies with people on dreaming forums, such as this one, trying to explain how to correctly achieve a WILD. When people join the forum they often say, ”Someone told me I had to reach SP.” Someone would reply, ”You do not reach a point when you cannot move. SP is what stops your sleeping body from acting out dreams.” That is not actually true. The actual process that prevents you from jerking around in bed, during a dream is properly called REM Atonia. The LDing community has been improperly calling REM Atonia by the wrong name (SP), and we should make a collective effort to cut it out. 

So what does REM Atonia mean? It is a change in chemicals and brain function that causes your body to remain still while you dream. People are experiencing awareness during sleep of a normal nightly process. Some people can actually feel the chemical change begin. It may feel like you are not connected to your body and many people describe it as a heavy-blanket feeling. It may feel like you are on narcotics.
 To add to the confusion, some people (like Sivason, Sageous, and Gab) can easily overcome REM atonia and even move freely during it (risking waking up however), while others find they actually are truly unable to move. You may or may not find that being aware during REM atonia prevents conscious movement. The fact that some LDers can move during REM atonia, is another reason not to call it Sleep Paralysis.

Here is why we talk about REM atonia (incorrectly calling it SP.) First, people who do experience SP can use methods to convert it to a WILD. This will not work for everyone. Second, In a WILD you are attempting to stay aware while your body falls asleep. You will be able to experience the stages of sleep and one event you can sometimes experience is REM Atonia. Some methods of WILD use this as a mile post in the WILD process. In these methods awareness of REM atonia is used to show when to start active visualization. Finally, we need new WILDers to know it is nothing to fear if it happens to them.

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## Zoth

Gosh, heated discussion  :tongue2:  I think overall people are doing a nice job on focusing on what really matters, which is presenting the correct concept of SP in the lucid dreaming field. Although I agree with people saying we cannot ignore those who really experience SP, I think it's more important to make SP sound an exception (according to the data provided in the above post for example), so beginners don't actually see it as something which might happen.

Also, refering to the reports or even a poll of people who said they had SP, we surely gonna end up with loads of reports being victim of a confirmation bias. It just happens.





> Also, can you explain how REM atonia does not prevent you from moving? Because technically, that's the point of REM atonia, to prevent you from moving. I see little sense in what is being stated above.



The idea that REM atonia completely paralyses you is untrue, and since SP resembles/equals REM atonia, then probably the same could apply to it. Even though I disagree with Auron regarding REM atonia being a type of SP (because if REM atonia is the natural process, then the anomaly which is SP is actually turning the exception as the name of the category), I think it's important that we are careful with "breaking SP or being unable to move".* You can move during REM atonia*, or *at least* have minimal muscular voluntary control, according to this article which presents tests made by LaBerge. Presenting the specific information:



_Figure 4. Morse code communication from the lucid dream. Evidence of voluntary control of other muscle groups during REM was found by LaBerge, Nagel, Dement, and Zarcone (1981) while testing a variety of lucidity signals. We observed that a sequence of left and right dream-fist clenches resulted in a corresponding sequence of left and right forearm twitches as measured by EMG. Here the subject sends a Morse code signal with left and right fist clenches corresponding to dots and dashes, respectively. Hence the message translates as "SL" (... .-..), the subject's initials. Note that the amplitude of the twitches bore an unreliable relationship to the subjective intensity of the dreamed action. Because all skeletal muscle groups except those that govern eye-movements and breathing are profoundly inhibited during REM sleep, it is to be expected that most muscular responses to dreamed movements will be feeble. Nonetheless, these responses faithfully reflect the motor patterns of the original dream._

Source: [LaBerge, S. (2000). Lucid dreaming: Evidence and methodology. Behavioral and Brain Sciences 23(6), 962-3. Commentary on target articles by J.A. Hobson et al. and by M. Solms in a special issue on dreaming.






> So, in your WILD experience have you encountered true paralysis, where moving was not an option. I do not mean a lead blanket narcotic effect (I think we all experience that) but a true inability to move if you needed to?
> *If so, do you ever experience it/ did you experience it prior to your lucid dreaming skills?*



If we ever make a poll (imo, a bad idea, cause the introspective method would do more harm than good in this subject), it would surely have to include this, great job sivason, I was actually digging the thread just to find a sentence like this one, without, the poll is completely useless.

I also think that the text should seriously favor a much more simple language, especially due it being targeted at new members (right?). I don't think there's any need to pump the main post with loads of scientific talk. It's the same with every scientific subject: you don't go out and explain people who have no clue about the physiology of sleep in a way that most of them are "what are you talk about?". I'm not saying this is happening, but I think the introduction could be much more "new-user" friendly sivason. Something like:


WILD is a very famous method of lucid dreaming induction. Since it reflects the conscious process of falling asleep and entering in the dream, it has been target of a great deal of reports regarding all the subjective experiences. No WILD experience is exactly alike another, and this is important if you're trying to measure your success (or lack of) during your attempts.
The most popular expression regarding WILD is the term *Sleep paralysis*, or SP. Although Sleep paralysis is not originally related to Lucid Dreaming, this experience was (and still is) being so cultivated amongst the onironaut culture, that it has created a serious misconception about the natural process of falling asleep consciously.

Why should you read this thread?

This thread was made by several staff and members of the DV community, as a way of educating you on the subject of Sleep Paralysis, so you may learn to identify if you are being victim of a rare sleep disorder, or if you're merely experiencing an array of natural sleep phenomenon that happen to virtually any people. In addition, this thread also serves the purpose of clearing several misconceptions regarding WILD, by using scientific background and testimonial reports of people who range from expert WILD practitioners to people that suffer from the condition of Sleep paralysis.

We should strike for something like this imo (not necessarily the text above, but you get the idea). The deal is that you want to present the information as simple and short as possible, in order to maintain a clear image of the message you're trying to transmit. Trust me, I'm involved in several communities of lucid dreaming writing articles and revising guides, and I've received a lot of feedback of beginners saying some content is just too complex to present. A good example is this thread, which most people ignore because it's way too "deep". Of course it's essential to have it, and that's why we're here, but you can simply put the "heavier stuff" - more detailed information, sources, quotes, link to discussion topic - in another post below the main one (like a reply). Just for the sake of the beginners, I'm sure we would all agree that many people ignore the science of lucid dreaming (which is totally fine), so sparing them from the "heavy" talk would be way more effective.

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## Sivason

Zoth00, me and sageous (he PMd me on it) completely agree with you that this should be kept simple. My first attempt at finding a middle ground was to provide the data Nina wanted, but using a small text size. This is to show that you can skip the science stuff if it is not interesting to you. I probably will break the intro into two posts, the first being very very simple, it would end roughly where I put large bold print in. The second containing the rest.

At this point I will likely not make any large revisions to the text, but I want to invite you to be one of the contributors. I am only at 4 opinions so far. You seem well spoken and clear, so you can be one of the 'opinions,' if you want.

I will compile the first go at this thread today, and sticky it in the DVA for the moment. Then, after seeking the opinions of any active staff that cares,, it will be stickied in the WILD section, if deemed suitable.

Thanks again zoth00. Also, thanks for the confermation on movement in REM. I was sure Gab, me and Sageous were correct, as I have first hand experience, but getting doubters to believe us is much easier with data, like you provided. It can be much more movement than forearm twitching too. Gab moved one arm up to her chest and then the other. I have been able to slowly reach out and hit the snooze button, or shift positions if I get a cramp. Movement like that has a risk of waking me, but I feel it is a skill that improves with time. We are talking slow gentlle volentary movements, but clearly we are not unable to move. If I do not care about waking myself I can move at will, like the DJ link where I sit up in bed to test REM atonia.

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## gab

> Zoth00, me and sageous (he PMd me on it) completely agree with you that this should be kept simple.



I very much agree, that first paragraphs should be kept very simple, with text continuing into more scientific explanation, for those interested. I think, that 14yr olds need to hear that they don't need SP to LD and that common HH are not SP.

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## Sivason

> I very much agree, that first paragraphs should be kept very simple, with text continuing into more scientific explanation, for those interested. I think, that 14yr olds need to hear that they don't need SP to LD and that common HH are not SP.



Agreed then. I am closing the work area thread. I will compose a first draft of the thread today in thhe DG section, and have MelanieB proof it and adjust it as needed. We also must think about our many members with limited English skills.


Zoth00, if you want to contribute an opinion, please PM it to me and it can be added to the thread. Thanks.

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## Sivason

One post from each contributor will be moved from this thread, so I cann paste their opinions into a post that is from them. This will allow people later to read the profile of each person, if they wish.

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## nina

Guys, I apologize for flying off the handle. I've been under a lot of stress lately. Vet school is certainly no walk in the park. I just wanted to publicly apologize to sivason, sageous, and the rest of you...and I appreciate the thoughtful PMs you guys sent to me even after my bitch-switch was activated. I think you guys are doing a great job putting this all together, and I would truly love to contribute more, but my schedule is ridiculous (1 midterm down...6 more to go). I realize you guys want to get this done as quickly as possible (and I only just now realized this thread was closed sorry), so perhaps I can just write my own thread about it on my own time. I promise I will not confuse the terms REM atonia and SP, this is actually something I've wanted to clear up for a long time...ever since shift brought it to our attention a few years back. But I also have a few different ideas, and there's no reason why I can't just make my own thread about it, rather than invading yours. Cheers.

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## nina

> The idea that REM atonia completely paralyses you is untrue, and since SP resembles/equals REM atonia, then probably the same could apply to it. Even though I disagree with Auron regarding REM atonia being a type of SP (because if REM atonia is the natural process, then the anomaly which is SP is actually turning the exception as the name of the category), I think it's important that we are careful with "breaking SP or being unable to move".* You can move during REM atonia*, or *at least* have minimal muscular voluntary control, according to this article which presents tests made by LaBerge. Presenting the specific information:
> 
> _Figure 4. Morse code communication from the lucid dream. Evidence of voluntary control of other muscle groups during REM was found by LaBerge, Nagel, Dement, and Zarcone (1981) while testing a variety of lucidity signals. We observed that a sequence of left and right dream-fist clenches resulted in a corresponding sequence of left and right forearm twitches as measured by EMG. Here the subject sends a Morse code signal with left and right fist clenches corresponding to dots and dashes, respectively. Hence the message translates as "SL" (... .-..), the subject's initials. Note that the amplitude of the twitches bore an unreliable relationship to the subjective intensity of the dreamed action. Because all skeletal muscle groups except those that govern eye-movements and breathing are profoundly inhibited during REM sleep, it is to be expected that most muscular responses to dreamed movements will be feeble. Nonetheless, these responses faithfully reflect the motor patterns of the original dream._



And from that same source which you conveniently left out...





> These and related studies show clearly that in REM sleep, dreamed bodily movements generate motor output equivalent at the supraspinal level to the patterns of neuronal activity that would be generated if the corresponding movements were actually executed. *Most voluntary muscles are, of course, paralyzed during REM, with the notable exceptions of the ocular and respiratory muscles.* Hence, the perfect correspondence between dreamed and actual movements for these two systems (Figs. 1-3), and the attenuated intensity (but preserved spatio-temporal pattern) of movements observed in Figure 4.
> 
> These results support the isomorphism hypothesis (Hobson et al.) but contradict Solms's (1995) notion of the "deflection" of motor output away from the usual pathways, and his speculation that it isn't only the musculo-skeletal system that is deactivated during dreams, but "the entire motor system, including its highest psychological components which control goal-directed thought and voluntary action." (Solms 1995, p. 58) I believe Occam's Razor favors the simpler hypothesis that the motor system is working in REM essentially as it is in waking, except for the *spinal paralysis*; just as the only essential difference between the constructive processes of consciousness in dreaming and waking is the degree of sensory input. See LaBerge (1998) for details.



Ok, that's all I want to add, there seems to be a real misunderstanding in the information you provided regarding the nervous system and the impact of paralysis on the skeletal system and actual movement (not just muscular twitches). Ok...done here.  :tongue2:

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