# Lucid Dreaming > Lucid Experiences >  >  EXTREME Lucid Experiments

## Vance

Alright, for all you experienced LD'ers, have you tried:

360 Degree Vision

Dream Libraries

Raising Dream Characters

Creating new colors

Controlling more than one body in a dream...



Just curious!  :smiley:

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## Luminous

Nope, never tried any of those.  :tongue2:  Maybe I will, but my dreams aren't that... consistent.

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## ushamie

i though about tring some of those

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## Träumer

Do you think it is possible to create new colors? Your mind might be able to  do or see things he has never seen before but creating a new color seems to be kind of hard. Your mind just knows the basic colors and is able to mix them to new colors but how could he be able to produce an entire new one?  :Eek: 
Well, otherwise nothing is impossible in LDs...What do you think??

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## M0rp8ix

> Do you think it is possible to create new colors? Your mind might be able to  do or see things he has never seen before but creating a new color seems to be kind of hard. Your mind just knows the basic colors and is able to mix them to new colors but how could he be able to produce an entire new one? 
> Well, otherwise nothing is impossible in LDs...What do you think??



I think it would be possible to create a new color scheme, i am not sure how but it could be possible. I mean your mind can create so many wonderful things, i don't think we ever know our full potential. If i remember it ill try it and see what happens, or get a DC to show me a color i have never seen and try to explain it to you.

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## Träumer

to ask a DC sounds like a good idea...
I'm really eager to hear your results!! Might be difficult to explain a totally new color you saw to people who haven't seen it as you can't use other colors to circumscribe it!

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## M0rp8ix

yeah i was thinking how i might explain it but i don't know. well i will try and see what happens then put it into words as best as possible.

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## Vance

Go ahead with it, this should be interesting...

(But potentially nerve wracking to explain  :wink2:  )

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## The Fishy

> Alright, for all you experienced LD'ers, have you tried:
> 
> 360 Degree Vision
> 
> Dream Libraries
> 
> Raising Dream Characters
> 
> Creating new colors
> ...



I haven't tried 360 vision or creating new colors Um, we have a spectrum of colors we can perviece, and we can't just create more variety... so ?), apart from that...

Raising DCs - I've always been able to do really easily, I don't know why. I love doing that.

I'm currently trying to control more than one body. I'm going to practie until I can turn myself into a swarm of bees, or similar, and control it.

What do you mean by Dream Libraries?

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## M0rp8ix

well what i am thinking is that if I ask and my DC actually shows me something it will just be so wierd, i dont know if I could propperly explain, like what gamma rays color is or something.

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## Axel

I don't think it would be possible to create a new color...If your mind has not seen it it most likely isn't possible.

Yes I know people will be like "OOOOOHH EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE IN A DREAM!" but come on people, get real, a new color? pshhh

We already have our basic colors (red, blue, yellow) and all those colors get mixed into different color schemes which creates millions of different color schemes. You may have thought you created a new color but you most likely didn't.

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## M0rp8ix

> I don't think it would be possible to create a new color...If your mind has not seen it it most likely isn't possible.
> 
> Yes I know people will be like "OOOOOHH EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE IN A DREAM!" but come on people, get real, a new color? pshhh
> 
> We already have our basic colors (red, blue, yellow) and all those colors get mixed into different color schemes which creates millions of different color schemes. You may have thought you created a new color but you most likely didn't.



I havent been able to try to yet, and i don't think i will consciously be able to create a new color, i havent seen, but that is why i am gonna try and ask a DC, they seem to know stuff i dont know. so it could be interesting or it could be retarded, you never truly know till you try

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## The Fishy

It's not a question of ability!!! Totally new colors are IMPOSSIBLE for your mind to comprehend because we can only see a minute spectrum of colors - 

Quote from the Wikipedia article on it (I can't explain, I don't know the jargon) -

"Color or colour[1] is the visual perceptual property corresponding in humans to the categories called red, yellow, blue, black, etc. Color derives from the spectrum of light (distribution of light energy versus wavelength) interacting in the eye with the spectral sensitivities of the light receptors."

That's why we see colors - we can't just invent more!

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## M0rp8ix

I am not saying it is guaranteed, and I am not putting it out of the possibility though. Our eyes see only a minute spectrum but that is b/c we dont have receptors to see anything else, It wont be possible for me to "create" a new color but it may be possible since your mind is what interprets the signals from you eyes to have the ability to see those not through your eyes. your minds eye type thing may have more of the receptors, we just dont know how to use them. I am just saying I am gonna try and ask a DC and see what happens, I know how our eyes and the light spectrum work, im in the study to be a surgeon, it will just be fun to see what happens, it may not be physically possible but maybe a mental look, not using the receptors you have in your real eyes. I want to try and see what happens is all.

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## Vance

I think it might be possible. People mention in it Stephen LaBerges book, and besides, our eyes only percieve a small spectrum of color... who knows? I think a new color would provoke more of a feeling than actually being able to describe... 

It is really hard to imagine isnt it?  :smiley: 
This is interesting.

But I am sure that it would be of a complete different category than the spectrum we use now. In other words, you wouldn't be able to paint it, because our eyes obviously percieve what we already know  :tongue2: 

This is weird...

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## Venomblood

You could create a new color, but how would you describe it to people?

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## M0rp8ix

yeah i dont know how i would describe a new color, it would be very difficult, I have been having somewhat of a dry spell for the last couple days, so i am gonna try again tonight and see if i can get an LD and talk to my DCs

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## 27

Of course you can create a new color. It's not like you're relying on your eyes. Don't underestimate the power of your mind

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## M0rp8ix

you guys should give it a whirl and see what happens just ask a DC to show you it or try to create a new color, i havent been able to LD in the last couple days, dryspell and too much stress with helping my GF move, but i wanna see what happens for you.

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## 27

But to add to the "EXTREME Lucid Experiments" I'd say experiencing the world with one or more extra dimensions of space would be pretty mind-blowing.

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## CDR

Well, all colors are made of the light spectrum, technically we couldn't see another color. If indeed you saw another color, it couldn't have been another color because it's impossible for us to see another color. Though it might be possible, some animals can see colors that we couldn't due to difference in their color spectrum. We don't know much about the mind either, so it is possible maybe...

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## Bloody-Mist

I've controlled more than one body before. It turns out I'm a narutal at lucid control, it's just hard for me to do it constantly. And about the color thing, our eyes can only see the visible spectrim, so that is what our minds are used to, we have no idea what the other parts actualy look like so it would be *INCREDIBLY* difficult if not impossible to go outside of our range.

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## Xibran123

could u actually describe a new color? i mean you cant say its a grennish shadow or anything like that cuz the color green you have already seen? :Eek:  but it still sounds awesome :smiley:

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## seeker28

> Alright, for all you experienced LD'ers, have you tried:
> 
> 360 Degree Vision
> 
> Dream Libraries
> 
> Raising Dream Characters
> 
> Creating new colors
> ...



I've attempted 360 degree vision, but rather than a continuous spherical view, I get jerking, overlapping views.  Almost like if your computer monitor is dying and you smack it and the picture jumps and overlaps.  Like that.

I suspect that by "Dream Libraries" you are refering to the metaphysical location where all material ever written is said to be kept.  Nah, never even tried to go there.

I'm not sure what you mean by "raising" DCs.  As in a parent raising a child?  As in a necromancer raising the dead?  As in causing DCs to float?  Or teaching a DC something?  I've raised a dead DC.  I've levitated DCs.  I've also taught DCs stuff.

I have never "created" a new color, but I did have one dream in which I saw a new color.  By that I mean a color that was not black, white, red, blue, yellow, or a mixture thereof.  I remember that it was beautiful.  But I do not remember what it looked like.

I've controlled by dream body, and the bodies of other DCs.

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## jamesc1994

by controling more that one body do u mean seeing thru 4 pairs of eyes and having 2 bodys or just making people move

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## seeker28

> by controling more that one body do u mean seeing thru 4 pairs of eyes and having 2 bodys or just making people move



Usually I've only made another body move.  However, there have been a few times where I actually felt and saw with two or more bodies (3 is the most I've ever done).

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## Elite

> Alright, for all you experienced LD'ers, have you tried:
> 
> 360 Degree Vision
> 
> *yes more than once very hard though getting easier*
> 
> Dream Libraries
> 
> Many times :]
> ...



Answers in *BOLD*

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## springtide

There are only so many colors to choose from, but what about seeing infra - red or emotions and not just with your eyes - seeing a stone -  wall feeling that cold and hard and feeling that sore crack in it that you cant quite see like an old pain in your lower back.
Try pushing your conciousness into your surroundings to learn more about them, if you come to a door you can't open then feel the door with it's fiberous wood and imagine it turning to styrene - light with no strenghth and then push it over.

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## DreamTaker

I've Done things like:  Hold the Earth in one hand and the Sun in another (they both felt like Ice).  I've flown fast and high above the clouds.  I dove in muddy water and pulled out a brief case full of money.  I've breathed under water.  I was bitten by an aligator and dragged under, but he was waiting for me to suffocate (never happened).  I've been shot and laughed at the shooter.  I change people when I don't want them in my dreams anymore.  I created car accidents.  I paused everybody.  I made myself dissappear.  I've shot lightning from my hands.  I turn chairs into helecoptors and flew away.  I jumped from city to city. The list goes on.

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## Quark

360 degree vision, I imagine, would be an like having an incredibly enhanced peripheral vision. For without this being the case, how could you discern whether you are looking forwards, or looking backwards?

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## Quark

> There are only so many colors to choose from, but *what about seeing infra - red or emotions and not just with your eyes - seeing a stone -  wall feeling that cold and hard and feeling that sore crack* in it that you cant quite see like an old pain in your lower back.
> Try pushing your conciousness into your surroundings to learn more about them, if you come to a door you can't open then feel the door with it's fiberous wood and imagine it turning to styrene - light with no strenghth and then push it over.



Sounds like some form of Synesthesia!

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## Shineenigma

360 degree vision is quite unambitious. I've experienced that in waking life for gods' sake. Just use a little imagination to expand the borders of your vision on both sides. I have good imagination, so you may not find it as easy, but it shouldn't be too hard.

As for creating a new colour. I think it is impossible. We are limited by our own experiences. Take the case of the man blind from birth. How could he possibly comprehend sight? He has nothing to compare it too. The same goes for every thing else outside owr sensory perception.

Pratchett fan Elite?

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## shotbirds

that's why it's 'CREATE'  a new color. It's probably possible, just got to find a way HOW to do it.

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## M0rp8ix

> As for creating a new colour. I think it is impossible. We are limited by our own experiences. Take the case of the man blind from birth. How could he possibly comprehend sight? He has nothing to compare it too. The same goes for every thing else outside owr sensory perception.
> 
> Pratchett fan Elite?



I have never flown in an air plane or flown in real life yet I can fly in my dreams, I can not see infra red in real life but last night i saw infra red with my naked eye. I do not believe we are limited to our own experiences in dreams, I believe that we can use any available ability of the mind, we just don't know how to use all of them. I am not so nieve to say that "everything" is possible but I will say that one heck of alot is.

Does a blind man dream? It should still be possible for the blind to comprehend sight i dreams b/c sight is merely the processing of electrical impulses by the brain. Next time someone sees a blind person ask them if they dream in sight. Just wanna know.

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## Shineenigma

Wrong. Sight may be merely impulses in the brain but that is not enough. Blind men do not have images in their dreams. Do you have the ability to sense electrical currents or magnetism? No. Certain animals can, so it is biologically possible. All we can imagine is subject to our own experiences.

There are uncountable phenomina in our universe. We are limited to very few sences with which to percieve them, even though we have more than five (the belief that humans have only five sences is a fallicy).

You said you saw infrared? Did you see the multicoloured images showing heat, or the actual shade beyond red? Though we do have infrared imaging technology, that is merely a representation of what it is really showing. If the display was infrared, what would be the point? We would be unable to view it.

Take the human eye. It doesn't show colour as clearly as one would imagine. First light has to go through the lens, then a thick gelatinous substance and finally a thin layer or nerves before it so much as reaches the cells that recept light. The colours we see are not true to the outside world. The reality we may never get to see.

You use the experience of flight in dreams. Not even close. Flying a plane is possible because it is simply a matter of moving joysticks while the plane moves as you want it to because of your will. I have driven cars in my dreams before ever having done so in waking life. I doubt that I used more than one pedal and the steering wheel, yet the car moved normally.

The difference is that you are trying to experience something beyond your limits as a human being. The universe is much bigger than we are, and we go around trying to make sense of its infinite secrets. Don't forget, we are using a language originally developed to tell each other where the best fruit is to explain something so mindblowingly enormous with just so much we cannot detect.

We are, quite frankly, nothing. Sure, that doesn't remove any importance of us. Our lives are important, because they are so to us. It just means that we can only experience a tiny fraction of what is around us.


I'm sorry... I seem to have rambled. I just have trouble with getting my thoughts out clearly. Words are only my second language. I prefere semantic thought, but that is not viable for inter-person comunications.

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## M0rp8ix

hmm, interesting, I will have to do a little research into it before I fully accept the idea but interesting none the less. I do still believe it possible for a blind man to dream sight but I won't claim it to be fact.

When I say I saw infrared it is hard to put into words that would make sense. I could compare it to something that is tangible to everyone else like saying it looked like such and such but then in saying that it looked like that I just gave you the wrong mental image. You would now perceive my seeing in infrared as merely seeing those colors. So, considering I have no ability to see infrared in real life I can still see what my mind has given infrared in my dreams. The way it interprets infrared electrical signals even though they are not visible to the human eyes receptors

The flight comment was that of human flight not machine induced flight. I have never and will never to my knowledge be able to fly in real life without external forces acting on me. But I guess you could say that my mind just creates the sensations that it thinks flying would give. so i will just put that argument aside.

Although I know not everything is possible in dreams I do believe that we have some untapped potential within our minds that is not being used because of the frailty and imperfections in our human physical form. In dreams we excercise more control over reality but I believe we also can access some of those untapped portions of our mind.

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## Theskit

I really want to try to do that new color thing. See I figure since the world as we know it is our minds attempt to make sense of data. I mean since red things aren't really red they are emitting a certain frequency and when our mind processes this information it lets us see it as red. That is the way we can understand it. Color is a fabrication of the mind and with that in mind it could really be possible to create a NEW COLOR. I mean our mind created all the colors we see now why not a new one. For the person who said that we have only a limited range of colors we can see I feel that is very close minded. Consider for a second that we had cones in our eyes sensitive to inferred light. In that case that new spectrum range won't be processed as an exaderated red it would be a new color. Thats how our brain would process it. Really and in a LD the possibilities are ENDLESS.

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## 27

Awesome first post, Theskit! Welcome to DV! For the record I completely agree with you.

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## Crossheart

> Do you think it is possible to create new colors? Your mind might be able to  do or see things he has never seen before but creating a new color seems to be kind of hard. Your mind just knows the basic colors and is able to mix them to new colors but how could he be able to produce an entire new one? 
> Well, otherwise nothing is impossible in LDs...What do you think??



New color.....hm...that is an intresting thought... technicly it is possible becuse in a dream, especialy a lucid dream, anything is possable. But on the other hand we do have a full spectrum of colors and it would be hard to comprehend a new color.
hmmm...nice brain candy

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## Shineenigma

The thing is that despite the infinite possiblity of dreams, they are still controlled by the brain. You'd be amazed at how much of dream content comes from waking experience. Studies have found that the majority of characters in our dreams, even the general crowd, are people we know, met or have merely seen in real life. Our waking experiences really do affect our dream content.

You see, dreams all come from our imaginations. I study both Biology and Psychology, including the topics of sight and dreaming respectively. The idea that we can perceive colours outside our spectrum doesn't make good sense in either. It is true, with the right biological apperatus, we could see infra-red light, but that does not meen that we can realisticly do so in our dreams. Some sharks can sense electricity. Now if you went into a dream and tried that would you feel it as a totally unique sensation? It is more likely that you would 'feel' it as heat or pain, which are seperate senses.

Just so you know where I stand, I do believe strongly in the power of the human imagination and I have a great one myself. I have with success put myself in non-human bodies, feeling with each sense (albeit, only the ones I possess) in a waking state with my imagination alone. I also know my own mind, motives and functions better than most people. I can control my emotions manually and turn off most forms of pain. I am basing my arguement off my experience an open mind and carefully applied scientific reasoning.

If someone could in a dream, view a colour outside of what we know, and report back with a detailed description of the events and colour, as well as the method used to view it, that would greatly benefit this discussion. It is though, equally important that if you fail, you report back, unless it is something trivial like 'I was about to try to see a knew colour but I saw Homer Simpson down the road and forgot about the task', or similar.

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## tonythephatone

.. the whole "new color" thing might be impossible.. even in a dream... that's like asking someone who's been blind since birth to describe what they see in a dream... even if they didhave normal sight in their dreams they wouldnt know what it was or how to discribe it.. if we could see a color that according to current science doesnt exist, it would almost have to appear as something besides "color" as we know it... even if it was experienced the mere thought of describing it would be simply impossible...

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## Mikekan

I haven't seen a new color before, but I once asked a dc to let me taste the most amazing thing ever. He pulled out a kind of slime liquid and when I tasted it.... OH my god. I cant describe it obviously but it tasted so good I actually felt my body drop away and complete euphoric vertigo rush over me.

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## Shineenigma

That's pretty cool. Not quite the same thing though.

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## Exhalent

> Wrong. Sight may be merely impulses in the brain but that is not enough. Blind men do not have images in their dreams. Do you have the ability to sense electrical currents or magnetism? No. Certain animals can, so it is biologically possible. All we can imagine is subject to our own experiences.
> 
> There are uncountable phenomina in our universe. We are limited to very few sences with which to percieve them, even though we have more than five (the belief that humans have only five sences is a fallicy).
> 
> You said you saw infrared? Did you see the multicoloured images showing heat, or the actual shade beyond red? Though we do have infrared imaging technology, that is merely a representation of what it is really showing. If the display was infrared, what would be the point? We would be unable to view it.
> 
> Take the human eye. It doesn't show colour as clearly as one would imagine. First light has to go through the lens, then a thick gelatinous substance and finally a thin layer or nerves before it so much as reaches the cells that recept light. The colours we see are not true to the outside world. The reality we may never get to see.
> 
> You use the experience of flight in dreams. Not even close. Flying a plane is possible because it is simply a matter of moving joysticks while the plane moves as you want it to because of your will. I have driven cars in my dreams before ever having done so in waking life. I doubt that I used more than one pedal and the steering wheel, yet the car moved normally.
> ...



That was beautiful...

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## 27

Look, even if it was impossible it's still possible for your brain to make you think you're seeing a new color beyond the normal spectrum of visible light. Who knows what flying would really feel like in waking life? It may not be the same as it feels in our dreams. But it is still possible to fly in dreams, just like it's possible to see a new color, even if it dosn't look the same as it would in waking life

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## M0rp8ix

Quick thought, how does the mind interperit the color spectrum for a child? They had never experienced it until they were born. And how would we learn if we can not experience new things that we have never experienced before? So a new color is completely possible.

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## OrionStyles

Don't forget new smells

Visualize in 4 spaces instead of 3 spaces

Visualize in 2 Time dimensions instead of 1 Time

And for all you nay sayers... this is kind of the point, you can't proove anything is real... as long as you take the time to make reasonable facsimiles. I mean clearly it is not possible to see a 4 space object without a 4 space eyeball, but the experience is fun none the less if you prep yourself by reading up on the 4 space.... 

Unless of course you are Ayn Rand...
Now there's a dream character to be fearful of... lol

 :wink2:

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## Immaterium

ive controlled two bodies as in moved someone like a puppet using telekinesis, and ive cloned my self and contolled two of my bodies, though it was in third person.

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## SourCherryBoy

> Usually I've only made another body move.  However, there have been a few times where I actually felt and saw with two or more bodies (3 is the most I've ever done).



Amazing.  :smiley:

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## Idolfan

I already have controlled more than one person, by accident in a normal dream last night. Yeah I know it always seems people say "last night" all the time but I swear it actually was. I was watching a bloke in a wheelchair and I literally began to control him. I wasn't moving my hands around in some kind of spell or oot, but as I was watching him I could move his muscles and think his thoughts, but I was still in my own body laughing at him. I'm not tight, I was trying to make him take a run up to a slope and manage a backflip. I have possessed a DC entirely before against my will but that's different.

Now 360 vision... is that possible? That would be so trippy! That's weird; I've been living for 15 years and I've only just noticed there's a big blank space around my head. Oh and get this. You know that thing you see when you close one eye and look towards it with you're other, it's your nose right? I thought it was the back of my eyelids until about a month ago (makes no sense I know). Then one day I touched it and thought "WTF? It's been my nose all this time!". There may be more we haven't recognised yet.

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## Iamerik

[QUOTE=Shineenigma;731602Blind men do not have images in their dreams.[/QUOTE]
What if they weren't born blind? How long do you (or anyone else) think that someone can keep on 'seeing' in dreams after they have gone blind?

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## SourCherryBoy

That's something I've thought about a lot, too. And what about deaf people who weren't born deaf... what is the difference between the _mind's ear_ of a person like that and a person born deaf. I doubt that the _mind's_ eye of a person born blind can't see. Maybe we should ask this:

Can we visualize something we haven't seen? And I don't mean weird shapes or contraptions, because they're usually comprised of stuff we've already seen. We construct these weird shapes using shapes we already know, we make weird objects of details already known to us.

Maybe the answer lies in creating colors we haven't yet seen in lucid dreams. Some people have claimed to have done this. Yet many have used existing colors to describe the new ones.

Or how about creating your very own shape. Something that isn't a square, a circle etc. or made of them. Such a feat probably demands the application of unknown dimensions, though. But in a dream, isn't everything possible?

Once again - questions with many different answers. Pick one and live with it. No guess is wrong.

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## warock

360 vision?
Creating new colors?
Dayam...
never thought of it, how could you create new colors. I mean you cant see what you haven't seen. well you can in dreams like dragons and stuff... but a new color? how...  ::?:

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## spitfire riggz

yeah, its impossible to create a new color. i mean, if there was a new color how would you describe it? "umm, its a dark red" thats maroon dumbass!! haahahahha

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## spitfire riggz

how would you describe it>? you would need other people to see. youd need the whole world to see your new color. or else no one would believe you

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## warock

> yeah, its impossible to create a new color. i mean, if there was a new color how would you describe it? "umm, its a dark red" thats maroon dumbass!! haahahahha



Precisely
How can you even picture it. The only way to make a new color is by adding colors together that we already know. How can we make something we don't know about.
Our brains cant even picture it because its limited by what we already know

Not sure if i am making sense yet  :Sad:

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## spitfire riggz

yeah, i saw this show on the discovery channel on the human body, one of which was on the brain. and our brains are ultra powerful and what not. but the most we can do is be able to see ulta-violet or maybe even x ray vision. but not new colors. i forgot how they explained it

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## 27

I'm reposting this for those who don't like to bother reading the whole thread before posting.





> Look, even if it was impossible it's still possible for your brain to make you think you're seeing a new color beyond the normal spectrum of visible light. Who knows what flying would really feel like in waking life? It may not be the same as it feels in our dreams. But it is still possible to fly in dreams, just like it's possible to see a new color, even if it dosn't look the same as it would in waking life



Just because you wouldn't be able to discribe it dosn't mean you couldn't experiance it.

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## warock

> I'm reposting this for those who don't like to bother reading the whole thread before posting.
> 
> 
> Just because you wouldn't be able to discribe it dosn't mean you couldn't experiance it.



Still not convinced i mean how can you even picture a color that doesn't exist. If you think about it your mind will probably just mix up colors you already know. For example if you try to create a new animal. It would end up being a collage of many different animals your brain put together. You cant really see what you have never seen, by that meaning something completely original. Like a sphinx... half man and lion, a dragon part bird part dinosaur and so forth.
I hope i managed to get my message across

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## 27

Why assume that your brain has to mix up things to produce something new? Your brain is capable of incredible things.

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## jamous

On 360 vision, what about something like this (taken literally):

"In the woods, we return to reason and faith. There I feel that nothing can befall me in life, -- no disgrace, no calamity, (leaving me my eyes,) which nature cannot repair. Standing on the bare ground, -- my head bathed by the blithe air, and uplifted into infinite space, -- all mean egotism vanishes. *I become a transparent eye-ball; I am nothing; I see all;* the currents of the Universal Being circulate through me; I am part or particle of God. The name of the nearest friend sounds then foreign and accidental: to be brothers, to be acquaintances, -- master or servant, is then a trifle and a disturbance. I am the lover of uncontained and immortal beauty. In the wilderness, I find something more dear and connate than in streets or villages. In the tranquil landscape, and especially in the distant line of the horizon, man beholds somewhat as beautiful as his own nature."

R. W. Emerson
From "Nature"

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## jamous

> Still not convinced i mean how can you even picture a color that doesn't exist. If you think about it your mind will probably just mix up colors you already know. For example if you try to create a new animal. It would end up being a collage of many different animals your brain put together. You cant really see what you have never seen, by that meaning something completely original. Like a sphinx... half man and lion, a dragon part bird part dinosaur and so forth.
> I hope i managed to get my message across



except differences between animals is not ANYTHING like those between colors. A person could absolutely create a new animal in a dream if he tried! (given the creative capabilities). All animals are simply elaborated DNA. Colors are unique in the way that the only thing that makes them the same, red, blue, and yellow, is that they are the three and only three puzzle pieces of light.

Hmm.. so what if we discovered like a "light-2", with 3 new primary colors? Would our brains percieve it? Or would we have to redefine physics??

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## spitfire riggz

man! its impossible to create a new color! its just not possible. i believe in every single damn thing like nessie and dream walkers. but creating a new color is just not possible. one thing that did strike me though, like jamous says, maybe if there was a new type of light, but still, it would be only a small percent chance. if there was new light it would probably either just make colors brighter or darker

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## SourCherryBoy

I wonder, though... What makes, for example, red RED? The frequency of some little particles or the way we interpret that frequency? It's the good old tree-question, actually. When you see a tree, do you see something that's _out there_ or something that is _inside you_. The relationship between a subject and that subject's environment is somewhat strange and paradoxical, and a very fertile soil for many different questions and opinions.

As one Estonian philosopher, Uku Masing, once said: there is no way of knowing whether one person's shade of yellow is that which another person sees. And that's something to think about**: what's my RED? what's your red? what's a ladybird's red? Maybe, in my dreams, I could see _your_ red and you could see mine, and we'd see "new" colours, or - different interpretations of the ones that already exists. Even if there are only "three main puzzle pieces" - so what. That doesn't automatically mean that we see those pieces from the same angle.

And please, people, don't be so quick to say "impossible". We need more thoughts with wings! Plus - science has got nothing to do with dreams, in my opinion.  :tongue2:

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## spitfire riggz

yeah. i remember hearing something about the color your seeing is every color of the rainbow EXCEPT for that color. i forgot, but it was wierd. that black was because you were seeing all the colors or something.... sorry. confusing

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## 27

Dude, just think about it. Why couldn't your brain trick you into making you think you're seeing a new color? One outside the normal color spectrum? You can do anything in your dreams. _Anything_. A new color wouldn't even be that hard. I wouldn't classify it as an "extreme" lucid experiment anyway. Not as hard as 360 vision or controlling two bodies anyway. You shouldn't say it's impossible if you've never tried it.

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## spitfire riggz

DUDE!! THERE ISNT ANY WAY THATS SANE. i just, *error* *malfunction*
it would kill to try and conjure a new color

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## jamous

> I wonder, though... What makes, for example, red RED? The frequency of some little particles or the way we interpret that frequency? It's the good old tree-question, actually. When you see a tree, do you see something that's _out there_ or something that is _inside you_. The relationship between a subject and that subject's environment is somewhat strange and paradoxical, and a very fertile soil for many different questions and opinions.
> 
> As one Estonian philosopher, Uku Masing, once said: there is no way of knowing whether one person's shade of yellow is that which another person sees. And that's something to think about**: what's my RED? what's your red? what's a ladybird's red? Maybe, in my dreams, I could see _your_ red and you could see mine, and we'd see "new" colours, or - different interpretations of the ones that already exists. Even if there are only "three main puzzle peaces" - so what. That doesn't automatically mean that we see those peaces from the same angle.



Interesting stuff, Sour Cherry Boy! And strange you mention that thing about 'another man's red' so-to-speak, because I used to hypothesize a similar concept when I was a kid. I thought, "what if one person sees red, but what he calls red I might call blue in my eyes?" As if the color wheel was rotated between individuals, red, blue, and yellow, switched up. How would we ever know? Of course, for this "another man's red" sort of concept to be true, the "color wheel" or color ratio would have to be basically consistent amongst everybody. So the wheel would either have to be rotated between individuals or there would have to be entirely different wheels.

Now, assuming what we're talking about is the latter version, the different wheels version, then the question is "could one man see another man's red in a dream?"... I don't know. I lean toward not though on an assumption that the ratio of colors is a law within and without every individual. If I were to somehow see your red it would have to replace mine. But I don't know.

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## Shineenigma

> Dude, just think about it. Why couldn't your brain trick you into making you think you're seeing a new color? One outside the normal color spectrum? You can do anything in your dreams. _Anything_. A new color wouldn't even be that hard. I wouldn't classify it as an "extreme" lucid experiment anyway. Not as hard as 360 vision or controlling two bodies anyway. You shouldn't say it's impossible if you've never tried it.



Hah! 360 degree vision is easy! I've done that awake with just my imagination!

A whole new colour is too intense. Sure you could technically see beyond our spectrum by fireing off the right neurones. It is also technically possible to with the lottery jackpot 5 weeks in a row. A new colour is so beyond our capabilities, and I'm saying that as someone with perfect dream control, when lucid, and an advanced knowldge of the capabilities of my own mind. Trust me, my imagination is so strong that while awake I have felt what it feels like to be in a totally non-human body, seen 360 vision and so on.

What experience or evidence makes you think that seeing a new colour in a dream can realistically be done? Speculation? Intuition? Ignorant assumptions?

As a person who has studied the biology of the human eye and human dreams in psychological fields, as well as massive skill in control in dreams it does not make proper sense.



Jamous, I had though about this very same thing when I was about 14. Frankly, the answer is so obvious that I don't see why I'm bothering. Simply the colours could not work that way. Look at the colour spread when chosing custom colours on most computor software. There are more shades of green than any other colour. If it were true that one person were to perceve colours as the next one on, this would not work correctly. It would mean that there would be detail on certain coloured objects that some people just would not be able to see. This may be true of some (i.e. the colourblind), but the difference would be much more noticable.

On the subject of colourblindness, I happen to know a couple of people inflicted with it. They simply struggle to tell the difference between red and green. That is because they are less capable of detecting those colours and are thus less distinct. They do not see it as something different. This arguement goes someway to disproving your suggestion as it shows with known example that sight of colour does not wirk in that way.

Finally, all our eyes work the same. Sure they may be of different calabre. Some have shaper vision, some detect colour better, others see things brighter. However, the colour wavelengths are constant. If it wasn't for each person eyes would not work properly.



I don't put any faith in philosophers. They come up with some real rubbish some times. They lack the simple common sense (which I prize for its rarety) often to spot the obvious flaws. One such man after a dream about being a butterfly questioned whether he was a man dreaming he was a butterfly or vice versa. Anyone with any experience of dreams should be able to instantly recognise that he would be able to know, the dream would not be that long, he would have no concept of humaity, etc.

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## 27

> Hah! 360 degree vision is easy! I've done that awake with just my imagination!
> 
> A whole new colour is too intense. Sure you could technically see beyond our spectrum by fireing off the right neurones. It is also technically possible to with the lottery jackpot 5 weeks in a row. A new colour is so beyond our capabilities, and I'm saying that as someone with perfect dream control, when lucid, and an advanced knowldge of the capabilities of my own mind. Trust me, my imagination is so strong that while awake I have felt what it feels like to be in a totally non-human body, seen 360 vision and so on.
> 
> What experience or evidence makes you think that seeing a new colour in a dream can realistically be done? Speculation? Intuition? Ignorant assumptions?
> 
> As a person who has studied the biology of the human eye and human dreams in psychological fields, as well as massive skill in control in dreams it does not make proper sense.



It's beyond the capacity of the eye but not the mind. I'm making it my #1 priority in my next LD to see a new color just to prove you all wrong ! But seriously, I know many people have claimed to see a new color in an LD and I don't think they're all liars. And for the record, I've taken college psych classes that studied the eye and dreams as well.

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## jamous

> Jamous, I had though about this very same thing when I was about 14. Frankly, the answer is so obvious that I don't see why I'm bothering. Simply the colours could not work that way. Look at the colour spread when chosing custom colours on most computor software. There are more shades of green than any other colour. If it were true that one person were to perceve colours as the next one on, this would not work correctly. It would mean that there would be detail on certain coloured objects that some people just would not be able to see. This may be true of some (i.e. the colourblind), but the difference would be much more noticable.



Red, blue, and yellow are the only colors there are. And every color that is not solid red, blue, or yellow, is a combination. The color spectrum encompasses every possible color between red, blue, and yellow, and black and white, which are "shades."

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## spitfire riggz

yeah. i could try all i wanted to make a new color in my lds. but u or me or anyone wouldnt be able too. if u do, please TRY to prove to me how u did it, and describe the color....... muhahahahah

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## Iamerik

> Dude, just think about it. Why couldn't your brain trick you into making you think you're seeing a new color?



You are then tricked to believe that something is a new colour, while it actually isn't.

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## 27

Which is what I've been saying the whole time... It would just _look_ like a new color outside the normal spectrum.

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## warock

> yeah. i could try all i wanted to make a new color in my lds. but u or me or anyone wouldnt be able too. if u do, please TRY to prove to me how u did it, and describe the color....... muhahahahah



 ::lol:: 
I'd like to see them try...

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## Through the Looking Glass

Creating a new color is impossible. Our eyes can only percieve such a set color range, only a few million colors. We can't create colors in our dream world and institute them into reality. You might be able to say, when I enter the next room I'll see a new color but when you wake up it'll probably be a color you've seen before. Or when you try to remember what it looked like, come up with nothing. Then there's the all important question: How would you describe it? I think you can equate this to the asking DCs to tell you the funniest joke ever. You'll hear it and think it's hilarious but when you wake up it's just nonsense. However, yes you can persuade yourself while dreaming that you saw a new color but in reality you didn't.

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## jamous

> Creating a new color is impossible. Our eyes can only percieve such a set color range, only a few million colors. We can't create colors in our dream world and institute them into reality. You might be able to say, when I enter the next room I'll see a new color but when you wake up it'll probably be a color you've seen before. Or when you try to remember what it looked like, come up with nothing. Then there's the all important question: How would you describe it? I think you can equate this to the asking DCs to tell you the funniest joke ever. You'll hear it and think it's hilarious but when you wake up it's just nonsense. However, yes you can persuade yourself while dreaming that you saw a new color but in reality you didn't.



you sound a little too sure of yourself here
but you are probably right  :smiley:

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## Vance

I love how this has turned into a philosophical discussion.

I know we have a set color spectrum, but there have _always_ been constants:


-The type of light we see it in

-The limitations of the human eye

-The limitations of our knowledge past what we ourselves see

-The limitations of our mind to set apart these colors


For example, how do you know there is a fourth dimension if we can't see it? What if there is a type of light that nobody can see or prove with our clumsy scientific devices? 

Imagine being able to see _everything._

Seeing everything in the universe on from the tiniest detail to the largest perspective. Seeing everyone's thoughts, emotions, actions. Seeing the past, the future, what never was, what could have been, how things happened, seeing ourselves from an unbiased view, seeing everything for the first time and as if we'd seen it before. Seeing infinity, all the possibilities... The possibilities in our universe would seem infinitely small to what you can do with infinity. We could see time, we could see how it has always been, but never was...

Now in that deep thinking state, tell me that you can't create a new color.

And tell me, how far-reaching our our scientific capabilities if we are using the very fabric we are trying to study? It's like somebody being given clay to build something to find out more about clay. And maybe, someone out there is appreciating the level of thought we are gradually achieving.

Just as this smiley would look like an infinitely ridiculous compared to the Universe. ( :boogie: )

Maybe in the future, we will have explored so many possibilities that smaller variation are gradually more appealing, until we are so minutely perfectionist that we see art in everything.

Besides, unless we give back to the Universe in thinking, contemplation and philosophy as well as changing the enviroment for the betterment of it's inhabitants, we are nothing but a rapidly multiplying virus that consumes and moves on.

That is why art is so important.

And that is why the mind is our greatest tool, and is unbounded in all the areas that would normally be bound in our Universe.


I got a little carried away, but on purpose. Now in this state of mind, and not from a narrow human perspective, post your replies.

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## Digital.Totem

I've gone so far as to take away all of my surroundings and build them anew, but the strangest thing I've had happens so far was finding an object in one of my lucid dreams I could in no way control. I would change scense and try to take things appart and it remained out of my reach. This isn't new but it hasn't happened in years. When I first started Lucid Dreaming I would be unable to move many things then fewer and fewer were immobile but this object has been there from the start. If I bodily try to touch it in my dream I can here it saying no several times before I wake.

Tonight I'm going to have a go at the talisman. It's not very often that I find something I can't manipulate. I may also like to try to remove everything including myself from my dreamscape and see how long I can remain lucid without any point of refference.

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## Digital.Totem

> Dream Libraries



I did this, sort-of I knew what you were thinking about. So I used a little stimulation for it. I watched Stephen Kings Dreamcatcher. You know the scene where the guy is running around in his own mind hiding thoughts and memories from the parasite. 

I started just by creating a large hall with dozens of rooms off to each side, and simple decided they each room would contain a memory or a dream, or the memory of a dream. I was able to see nightmares I had as a kid, and see some of my early birthday parties. I suppose that the rooms are each and everyone empty until I decide what I want to find and then it's there, but it helped having lots of rooms, that way my mind didn't have to say "change the setting in this room" it just had to say "oh, that's whats in this room."

I think something along this line may be the root of hypnotic regression to recover memories, because I was able to see an accident I had when I was just 2 years old.

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## Metroid48

I will have to differ in opinion about the "you can't create another colour" idea.

First, just to get this clear, the analogy "like asking a blind man to imagine seeing" is completely wrong for this case. A wider range of colours is an *extension* of a sense we already have, sight. It's not so much creating a new sense, but merely updating an old one.  ::roll::  Maybe having "a blind man imagine hearing out-of-depth sounds, or having more fidelity in touch" would be more accurate, because those would both be senses he was already familiar with; merely increased in perception.

Second, describing a new colour would be very VERY hard. That is definitely true, since it would (at my best guess) be indicative of an existing colour but would "feel different". Take infrared. I'm guessing (no personal experience here, just an educated guess) that if able to see infrared as a new colour people would imagine it as having a red-ish hue, while still not _being_ red. It would be more like a perceived difference, though.


Well, there are my thoughts. I'd really love to hear a recount of a full 360-view (either warped or indicated), since that would be really cool  ::D:

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## jamous

Light, all light, IS the color spectrum. There would have to be new light for new colors to exist, but I think it's like a law of physics that red blue and yellow are the only colors.

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## jamous

no wait, I'm wrong, or theres more at least

ok ok, it IS like a new sense actually. You know how some animals are color blind? Well they don't know they are right? But we know there is more color out there, because we have the receptors to see it. It's like we have 5 or 6 senses, a set number at least, but maybe there is a whole infinite world of things we just can't sense because we don't have the receptors to pick it up? I think there could totally be more colors, but I still don't know if we could conceptualize them in a dream.

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## schematics

> Red, blue, and yellow are the only colors there are. And every color that is not solid red, blue, or yellow, is a combination. The color spectrum encompasses every possible color between red, blue, and yellow, and black and white, which are "shades."



Actually, you're thinking of color pigments, like paint.  What you really mean is RGB, red green and blue are the 3 primary colors that can combine to create other colors, in the physical world.  There is also the secondary, the cyan, magenta, and....yellow?  I forget the third.

Anyways.....I imagine that the brain could fool you into thinking you saw a new color, by giving you just the sensation.  The memory of the color would always rest just on the tip of your mind, as you could never envision it whole, as that is impossible.  You can have the "sensation" of seeing a new color, but you can't actually physically perceive it.  We can only perceive visible light within a certain frequency range of the electromagnetic spectrum, much like we can only hear sounds within the frequency range of 20 Hz to 20 000 Hz.
But it really depends on our receptors and our brain, as our whole reality rests within the computations of this organ.  With our exponentially expanding technology, I can only imagine that soon we will be able to delve into the territory of perceiving that which was before unseen.

btw....why is everything in Russian on this forum?
(edit: lol nvm, I didn't see the language bar at the bottom)

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## Metroid48

Only three colours? You realize that other animals see our colour spectrum in _addition_ to some other ones? I mean, really, do you think that we have the highest vision spectrum? Nope.

Now how do those animals deal with it? Well, they just do, because their brain works with it differently. Which brings me back to my point that it would be an _extension_ of your existing sight. The animals which naturally have the ability to see wider spectrums don't suddenly have another sense, it's an extension.

You know also that people can see a bit of low-range-infrared? Just thought I'd mention. :smiley:

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## jamous

> Only three colours? You realize that other animals see our colour spectrum in _addition_ to some other ones? I mean, really, do you think that we have the highest vision spectrum? Nope.
> 
> Now how do those animals deal with it? Well, they just do, because their brain works with it differently. Which brings me back to my point that it would be an _extension_ of your existing sight. The animals which naturally have the ability to see wider spectrums don't suddenly have another sense, it's an extension.
> 
> You know also that people can see a bit of low-range-infrared? Just thought I'd mention.



how could anybody know that some animals see more colors than we do?

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## schematics

That's just another way of saying, how can anyone "know" anything???  No one is 100% certain of anything, but we can get close enough.  Maybe they know because they can see neural activity in the visual cortex of animals in response to wavelengths outside our visible spectrum.

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## M0rp8ix

Humans are limited creatures, what we don't understand or think possible a lot of us just seem to write off as impossible. Yet just look at all the technological and developmental advancements we have made, the understanding we have gained over centuries of research and development culminating in a single event, the gaining of knowledge previously unknown. 

You are limiting color to only the current visible light spectrum. But that is just because our eyes only have receptors to pick up those certain frequencies. But there are animals the pit viper for instance which can "see" using infrared. There is plenty of evidence to support this claim just google it, I don't care to do the research for you. That being said I do NOT believe that in our physical state we could see anything outside of the light spectrum but when you are dreaming you are not limited to the physical state. The mind no longer interprets signals from your eyes it uses the "minds eye" to create your surroundings. Therefore the limit of not having receptors is taken out of the equation. If you would open your mind a little and stop being so narrow minded you would understand that it is only logical to perceive what has never been perceived before else we would never be able to learn anything new.

Explaining this new color though would pose an extremely difficult task in that you could not compare the new color to any other physical color because then the skeptics just write it off as "oh, he is just seeing a slightly different shade nothing more." You would need to be able to give them the experience firsthand or they would just need to believe that it is possible even though the image they get from you trying to explain it would not be the same as the actual color.

Also, if perceiving a new "color" is too much for you to comprehend then consider it as seeing a new spectrum or light. The feeling and visual effects of that new spectrum would be the color. The skeptics here are just too narrow minded to consider perceiving what is commonly believed as impossible as possible. Break free of the restraints that hold you back, the common beliefs and create your own. Give it an honest try in your next LD, if you can not achieve this then maybe you just arent skilled enough, or maybe it is impossible for you. But until i have exhausted every resource I have trying to prove that it is possible I refuse to accept that it is impossible. As is I can see in Infrared in my LD. But to try and explain it to you would be like trying to explain what fire is to a person who has never experienced fire. Unless I can show you through my mind what I saw you will never truly understand the experience.

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## Naiya

*360 Degree Vision:* Only a few times; it's kind of hard so I never really worked at it. Basically, it's seeing in all directions at the same time, even above and below.

*Dream Libraries:* Yep, although if you believe in astral projection it's more like the library that many AP books talk about--I can go back and relive things in my actual life (not that I've wanted to; once is enough thanks) or previous dreams or all kinds of stuff like that.

*Raising Dream Characters:* Don't think I've done this one...I'm not interested in real life kids (a niece is more than enough right now!) so I don't really care to do it in dreams either. Kids are work--why waste a good LD on them? When I have real kids they'll eat up all my time anyways, sleep included.  ::D: 

*Creating new colors:* Yep, tons! I see them all the time, but I don't exactly create them myself.

*Controlling more than one body in a dream:* I just did this a couple of weeks ago. I controlled two other people besides myself like puppets. It's in my dream journal if you wanna read about it.

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## schematics

> You are limiting color to only the current visible light spectrum. But that is just because our eyes only have receptors to pick up those certain frequencies. But there are animals the pit viper for instance which can "see" using infrared. There is plenty of evidence to support this claim just google it, I don't care to do the research for you. That being said I do NOT believe that in our physical state we could see anything outside of the light spectrum but when you are dreaming you are not limited to the physical state. The mind no longer interprets signals from your eyes it uses the "minds eye" to create your surroundings. Therefore the limit of not having receptors is taken out of the equation. If you would open your mind a little and stop being so narrow minded you would understand that it is only logical to perceive what has never been perceived before else we would never be able to learn anything new.



Yeah, pretty much what I'm saying basically.  We don't have receptors to perceive energy outside our visible spectrum, but that's not to say that somehow we might be able to be equipped with receptors that can perceive energy outside the visible spectrum.  It's already been shown that some animals and insects perceive outside our visible spectrum.

And as for seeing outside the visible spectrum in a dream, well, like I said before, the closest you can get to that is just the fleeting sensation that you saw a new color. How would it be possible otherwise? Unless somehow you unconciously pick up on these wavelengths outside the visual spectrum, and they are shown to you in your dreams, I just don't see how your brain could simulate the perception of energy outside the visible spectrum.

Think about it this way.  Some one lives there whole lives with ear plugs on but they don't realize it.  They hear, but what they hear is nothing compared to what we hear.  What they hear is not only lower in loudness, but has much of the high frequency content removed.  Now to them this what sound is.  How could they imagine anything different?  One day you remove their ear plugs and they say.....holy crap, I had no idea sound could be this bright.  Do you think they could have a dream before their ear plugs were removed where they heard such sounds, and remember it the next morning?  Course not.  

Oh yea, and we don't learn new things by perceiving new ranges of stimuli. What you're talking about is evolution/mutation.  Maybe one day a random mutation will occur, where the person can perceive a wider range of stimuli, and they this person will procreate and pass on his/her genes, and evolution will favor this and soon everyone will be seeing sound or w/e lol.

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## spitfire riggz

im tellling you, creating a new color is impossible. i dont know how naiya did it "thousands of times" i wanna know what colors she invented

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## Naiya

Spitfire, colors don't exist in the first place. We only see color because our brains translate what our physical senses tell us. Colors are a _perception._ They are subjective. Same with sound---what *exists* is the frequency/vibration. The sound itself does not exist until it is actually perceived and translated into a sound by the mind.

When you aren't limited by your physical senses--your eyes--your mind is capable of "seeing" more than is possible in your physical body, hence things like seeing in all directions at once.

And again, hummingbirds see more colors than we do, for example. You wouldn't be surprised if a hound could smell more scents. Human beings are so arrogant, thinking we have the best equipment! But anyway, that in itself proves that there are more colors than the ones our human eyes can perceive.   :tongue2: 

So basically, that means your argument can only work if you are arguing that it is impossible to dream something you have never seen or experienced previously in some form or another, right? But the wonderful thing about the imagination is just that--it can actually create completely new ideas. And if you don't think that's possible, then I sort of feel sorry for you.  :wink2: 

Also, just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it's impossible. Although most dreams (especially for a non-LDer) are pretty much just our mind imitating the normal things it is used to. In lucid dreams and OBEs, things can become much more than simply a mixture of our thoughts and previous experiences. 

Nothing is impossible within your own mind and imagination.  :boogie:

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## schematics

Naiya, I don't think you actually imagined or dreamt new colors.  You probably felt like you did, but didn't actually.  Until we have the capability to perceive energy outside the visual spectrum, there is no way to actually imagine it like you would imagine the color red or blue.

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## Naiya

> Naiya, I don't think you actually imagined or dreamt new colors.  You probably felt like you did, but didn't actually.  Until we have the capability to perceive energy outside the visual spectrum, there is no way to actually imagine it like you would imagine the color red or blue.



You're still thinking that dreams are perceived by our physical eyes. They aren't. They're perceived by our minds. So again, your argument is just that you don't think anyone can imagine something they've never seen before. Which imo, is more of a philosophical question that has no correct answer.  ::D:

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## Digital.Totem

Ok, sorry to break up the party on colors, but you can't imagine new colors, you can percieve previously imperceptible sprectra, but so far as I know EM only really goes from radio to gama. There are animals that cans see from infrared to ultraviolet, but that is the full range perceptible by any known organic being. It takes some prety imaginative science to see all of the EM Spectra, and even then it's only rationalized into our percievable spectrum. There, no such thing as new colors, just ones you haven't seen.

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## warock

> *Creating new colors:* Yep, tons! I see them all the time, but I don't exactly create them myself.



Can you.. describe them please...??

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## M0rp8ix

> Can you.. describe them please...??



Have you not looked at any of the other post, it would be impossible to correctly describe the new colors to you because you have not experienced them first hand. if he did try it would make it sound like it was just a mix of other colors by comparing it to them then you will go but that just sounds like this and this mixed together.

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## Through the Looking Glass

I realize that visible light occupies such tiny part as far as waves go, there's visible light waves, gamma rays, x-rays, radio waves, micro waves, infrared waves etc. In fact I saw on some show that visble light waves occupy such a tiny part of all the different types of waves that if if were represented by a movie reel of film going from Los Angeles to Alaska, visible light would be one singe frame. THis blew my mind, I don't remember if this was on the Discovery Channel or History Channel but it's pretty amazing. 

So yeah I understand if you could see infrared or something else yuo could see new colors. If you could just imagine every human being color blind and there are colors none of us can see and you could get past this you could see new colors. I don't know if I'm making any sense here but whatever. Anyways I understand the arguments for being able to create new colors in an LD but I stand firm that it's impossible. It just is, I believe the other ones are possible like 360 vision although very difficult to achieve. When you wake up you won't be able to recreate this color or remember what it looked like.

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## schematics

> You're still thinking that dreams are perceived by our physical eyes. They aren't. They're perceived by our minds. So again, your argument is just that you don't think anyone can imagine something they've never seen before. Which imo, is more of a philosophical question that has no correct answer.



course I know dreams aren't created through stimuli taken in through our eyes, as our eyes are closed when we sleep  ::D:  .  The stimuli comes from internal input, I know that (not the mind though, the mind is more of an abstract thing, it's probably better to say that dreams are combination from internal input in the brain).  And, I know we can imagine things we haven't seen before, hell right now I'm imagining a giant tree where the roots are made of human arms and the leaves are long spiky things.  But even that is a combination of things that already exist.  Forms and objects that exist in our perception of the universe.  We can't actually imagine or dream up new colors (and remember, a new color means just that you're perceving out side the visual spectrum, so into UV, x-ray or whatever) because we don't have the capabilities to perceive them.  I just don't know how to explain this any better.  You can "feel" like you see them, just like when you wake up from a dream and "felt" like you heard the most beautiful music in the world but can't quite remember what it sounded like....

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## SourCherryBoy

> im tellling you, creating a new color is impossible. i dont know how naiya did it "thousands of times" i wanna know what colors she invented



Dude! We know that's what you're telling us. It's the fourth time you say that. We get it. You're in a cell that you've created for yourself; we, on the other hand, are either gullible fools or liars. But these opinions don't really add much to the thread. And no one can describe the colors to you. If you're not even open to the possibility that seeing/experiencing new colors is possible, why bother asking someone to describe the ones he or she has seen?

Whatever... It's just that sometimes you just have to go with the flow, you know. Stab logic in the back, swallow your pride and try to create a new color in your next LD.  :smiley:  I think that would be the best thing to do because this discussion, while interesting and even rewarding at times, won't uncover the truth. It can _inspire_, though. So why not let yourself be inspired?  :wink2:  Is it the fear of appearing foolish, that if you believe in something that doesn't have the stilt of science under it, you'll fall flat to the ground? Because these fears are very common. I'm a living example, actually. I'm often afraid of leaving a bad or a silly impression to someone. I tend to choose my words very carefully, I almost triple check my posts etc.  ::D:  But it's very grueling, you know. Sometimes you have to do something that's not normal, take a leap of faith, even if it means falling into mud, because that's how we learn and develop.  :smiley: 

Also, Naiya - a refreshing post  :smiley:  I was just about to write that this topic is starving for female attention.  :tongue2:  Not that I want to make some sort of a "manly VS womanly" thing out of all this.  ::D: 

But yeah, it's a question of perception. I mean - if you look at the world through orange sunglasses, for example, is the world really orange? No. It only _seems_ to be. So take the glasses off. There... Everything is colorful again, the world isn't shades of orange any longer. So is the world really colorful? No. Once again - it only _seems_ to be. Why? Because light passes through space and time, so to speak, it bounces off things, passes through different layers of air and different layers of our eyes (through the cornea, through the iris etc.). And finally our brain interprets all this and that becomes our perception of "how things _really_ are". And well... in a sense, that's how they really are, at least for you or for me or for Naiya... But it doesn't really end there, now does it? You have got to ask: is my perception the only possible one? Can I alter my own perception of things? Can I alter how my brain translates the environment surrounding me? Can I learn or experience new ways of translating things? Etc.

I mean - why even think that some bird, for example, can't see colors that would be new for us? Even if you say that there are these primary building blocks which always remain the same, that there are only some certain wavelengths out there. So what!? To "compensate" this, there are uncountable different interpretations of these wavelengths out there. If you so badly want to believe that even in your dreams you can't choose between different interpretations, then do so, no one can stop you, but you'll probably miss out on much.

The fabric of our Universe is very versatile. Experiment a little.

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## Naiya

> course I know dreams aren't created through stimuli taken in through our eyes, as our eyes are closed when we sleep  .  The stimuli comes from internal input, I know that (not the mind though, the mind is more of an abstract thing, it's probably better to say that dreams are combination from internal input in the brain).



Yep, you are right...the mind is abstract. Therefore your whole argument kind of makes no sense because you're trying to put physical boundaries on something abstract and boundless. Nothing is unimaginable within the imagination.  ::D:

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## schematics

no that's the thing, I'm saying the mind fools you into thinking you perceived the imperceivable. but w/e. who knows, I could be wrong for all I know.

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## 27

All that your perceivable is in your mind. Nothing is "imperceivable".

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## Naiya

> no that's the thing, I'm saying the mind fools you into thinking you perceived the imperceivable. but w/e. who knows, I could be wrong for all I know.



That's exactly it, no one can ever possibly know for sure either way. When you've experienced it yourself, this explanation just doesn't measure always up. So I understand, I just personally disagree.  :wink2: 

I'm not asking anyone to believe me, just that they don't try to rewrite my own experience. It's kind of like when you're in love with someone and a person you don't even know goes "Oh it's just a phase/infatuation." In some cases they are 100% right, but you have to admit, it's more than a little obnoxious for people to say that to someone's face, and you better be prepared for the person to defend what they believe they have experienced.  ::undecided::

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## i make it rain

> I've attempted 360 degree vision, but rather than a continuous spherical view, I get jerking, overlapping views.  Almost like if your computer monitor is dying and you smack it and the picture jumps and overlaps.  Like that.
> 
> I suspect that by "Dream Libraries" you are refering to the metaphysical location where all material ever written is said to be kept.  Nah, never even tried to go there.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "raising" DCs.  As in a parent raising a child?  As in a necromancer raising the dead?  As in causing DCs to float?  Or teaching a DC something?  I've raised a dead DC.  I've levitated DCs.  I've also taught DCs stuff.
> 
> *I have never "created" a new color, but I did have one dream in which I saw a new color.  By that I mean a color that was not black, white, red, blue, yellow, or a mixture thereof.  I remember that it was beautiful.  But I do not remember what it looked like.*
> 
> I've controlled by dream body, and the bodies of other DCs.




i see a bright future in the crayola company if you can remember it.

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## MisterHyde

360 degree vision - it rocked and i've only been able to do it once.  REALLY hard to explain.  Think panoramic 360 photograph like you see online, but all views at once.  At the same time.  Blew my mind.

Dream libraries - I've been to a place where they claimed everything evil written was stored.  I was in a messed up place where everything was evil.  

Raising a DC - done, I resurrected my dead dream guide, who promptly stopped visiting me consistently and now only appears every so often.  Tried to kill me last time...

Seeing a new colour - I got into a huge argument on another thread about this.  To be honest, I am not sure whether it is possible.  Try imagining a new colour, right now.  Can you see it?  And is it really a new colour or a shade of an existing one.  I can't imagine a new colour, and I think in images, so I am not sure whether you could do it in a lucid.  Might be possible.

Controlling more than one body - I've done this a couple of times.  I loved Multiple Man in X3, and pretty soon afterwards copied it in a dream.  Also, the second time I flew, there were two of me.  I kind of had an overview of each body and could control them independently or together.  

Ummm...and as a really experienced lucid dreamer, this isn't really an EXTREME list of stuff.  Sorry.

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## jamous

so I wonder if you could give yourself another sense. That would be sort of taking it to the next level I think.

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## SourCherryBoy

Oh, great idea  :smiley: 

I'd love manual control over processes that take place in our body-cells  ::D:  Imagine - to be able to drive around in your own mitochondrions  :smiley:  Although that wouldn't really be a new sense, I guess.  It would be pretty cool, though. Hmm... that reminds me of stories about Indian healers who have supposedly gone inside their cells in dreams to rearrange faulty DNA or something like that.

Maybe sensing time in a different way would be a new sense. Sort of like the Tralfamadorians in Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse-Five:





> Tralfamadorians have seen every instant of their lives already; they believe that they can't choose to change anything about their fate, but can choose to focus on any moment in their lives that they wish.

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## i make it rain

> Oh, great idea 
> 
> I'd love manual control over processes that take place in our body-cells  Imagine - to be able to drive around in your own mitochondrions  Although that wouldn't really be a new sense, I guess.  It would be pretty cool, though. Hmm... that reminds me of stories about Indian healers who have supposedly gone inside their cells in dreams to rearrange faulty DNA or something like that.
> 
> *Maybe sensing time in a different way would be a new sense. Sort of like the Tralfamadorians in Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse-Five*:



so it goes

im reading that now and i actually thought about trying something like that in a dream. but wouldn't it just be like time travel through your own life? still it would be pretty cool. it could get pretty freaky if you believe in precognition and stuff.

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## jamous

so it goes
hahaha
great book

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## Quark

To create is heavily contingent upon pre-existing knowledge. How does one create anything completely novel? It would be like asking someone with a sensory deficit, e.g. blindness, to create something that relates to said sense. For without the person having any prior experience to visual stimuli, I cannot fathom such happening (almost).

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## i make it rain

> To create is heavily contingent upon pre-existing knowledge. How does one create anything completely novel? It would be like asking someone with a sensory deficit, e.g. blindness, to create something that relates to said sense. For without the person having any prior experience to visual stimuli, I cannot fathom such happening (almost).



dats deep, joe

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## jamous

I think this discussion dead-ended awhle ago

until somebody tries this, succeeds or fails, there isn't much else to say about the color thing.

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## SourCherryBoy

Seconded.

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## mightymind

On the subject of creating a new colour I may have come a little closer to solving this little challenge. I myself am incapable of Lucid Dreaming, I only ever did it once and the only lucid thing about it was forcing myself awake because i got scared. I have never had a real lucid dream and, although I imagine it would be a fantastic skill to have, I doubt I ever will.

My 'solution' is something much, much simpler. When you close your eyes you never see complete blackness do you? I don't. What I see, everytime, almost without exception is a swirling mist of dark colours all disolving into one another and regenerating shortly after and this, my friends, is where I found my answer.

The one that stands out the most is what looks to have the darkness of black but the striking brightness and 'blood', so to speak, of green. Now try to imagine that then set it on fire. That is what I believe is a colour created by my mind.

Does anyone see what I mean?

P.S. What is a DC?

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## 27

DC = Dream Character

Acronym List.

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## jamous

> On the subject of creating a new colour I may have come a little closer to solving this little challenge. I myself am incapable of Lucid Dreaming, I only ever did it once and the only lucid thing about it was forcing myself awake because i got scared. I have never had a real lucid dream and, although I imagine it would be a fantastic skill to have, I doubt I ever will.
> 
> My 'solution' is something much, much simpler. When you close your eyes you never see complete blackness do you? I don't. What I see, everytime, almost without exception is a swirling mist of dark colours all disolving into one another and regenerating shortly after and this, my friends, is where I found my answer.
> 
> The one that stands out the most is what looks to have the darkness of black but the striking brightness and 'blood', so to speak, of green. Now try to imagine that then set it on fire. That is what I believe is a colour created by my mind.
> 
> Does anyone see what I mean?
> 
> P.S. What is a DC?



dude, what?
hahaha I don't think that really makes any sense

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## mightymind

Yeah I guess it doesn't. Ah well. But then again I never have seen that colour on anything physical.

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## jamous

> Yeah I guess it doesn't. Ah well. But then again I never have seen that colour on anything physical.



well the thing is, the way you described it... you used other colors to describe it, and that shouldn't be possible. You can't descibe yellow like "well it's kind of a light red, with a little green mixed in," you dig?

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## mightymind

hmm.

yeah you're right good point.

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