# Lucid Dreaming > DV Academy > Current Courses > Intro Class >  >  Art's Workbook

## Iokheira

*Reality Checks:*
-Counting my fingers
-Pushing a finger through my palm
-Looking at a digital clock
-Looking at faces

*Dream Signs:*
-Weird lighting
-Weird clouds
-Finger trees
-Blurry faces
-Warehouses
-Beaches
-College
-Aggression
-Amphitheaters

*Short-Term Goals:*
-Be able to lucid dream fairly frequently
-Recognize when my DCs are being unrealistic

*Long-Term Goals:*
-Go places in my dream
-Create objects
-LD whenever I want

*Lucid/Dream Recall History:*
-When I was a kid I could control some dreams, but wasn't aware of dreaming
-I had a lucid when I was maybe 7 or 8 (haunted house)
-Had 3 lucids since a DV member, all unstable
-Finally got one that was stable, badass!
-Recall is pretty good if something sudden doesn't wake me up and if I sleep ok

*Current Technique:*
-DILD
-DEILD

*Sleep Times*
-MTWHF: 11:00-6:00
-SSu: 12:00-10:00

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## Iokheira

*Spoiler* for _Goals to complete_: 



Flying
Create a group of DCs that follow me around and cheer whenever I do something decently or well
Complete the Matrix Jump program
Use a Portal gun
Hoverboard
Be a rockstar
Road race
Streak
Hitchhike across galaxy
Be in a circus
Bend a city like in Inception
Have a battle like in Ender's Game
Get assimilated by the Borg
Watch a time-lapse
Go to the center of the universe
Moonwalk on moon
Reenter atmosphere
Be like Tarzan or Lewa in the forest
Fight like a badass
Punch a DC
Be weightless
Have sex
Shapeshift
Read a book
Hang out with dream guide
Ride on a light cycle like in Tron
Do drugs
Go through the looking glass
Become a Na'vi
Start a war
Meet a celebrity
Ask a DC what my purpose is
Go to heaven
Go to hell
Breakdance/Popular dance
Watch something form
Watch something being destroyed/dying
Control the elements [Fire, Earth, Air, and Water]
Control time
Be telekinetic
Have a gladiator fight
Lava surf
Save people from the Matrix
Make a wish in a wishing well
Breathe underwater
Be a ghost/Haunt someone
Complete a Task of the Year




*Completed Goals*
Do at least one TOTM - (11/17/12)
Fly - (3/8/13)

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## Iokheira

*Spoiler* for _November_: 




*11/7/12* - 2:30-7:30. Woke up briefly around 3 and 4.
Tried to remember to DILD before I fell asleep.*11/7/12* - 2:30-4:20 (Nap)
Tried to remember to DILD, attempted using DreamZ to DEILD. It recorded dream, but I was too tired to hear the alarm. Try again later.
*11/8/12* - 12:30-7:00.
Thought about DILD before sleeping. Noticed a lot more oddness in my dreams, probably because I've been doing RCs during the day. Not enough to get me lucid though. DreamZ did record my sleep patterns, which was nice, considering I have a foam mattress. It said I had 6 dreams, the longest being 31 minutes. I had it set to alarm, so it didn't wake me up. I've been automatically waking myself up after my dreams. Kind of annoying but handy too. Wrote down what I remembered and can't sleep anymore.*11/8/12* - 8:45-9:46 (Nap)
No dreams.
*11/9/12* - 1:20-11:00.
Super tired. Sometime or another around 9 I'm guessing, woke up and stuck my phone on the nightstand. It recorded at least 5, longest 26 minutes, but I think I had another after that.*11/9/12* - 3:00-6:30 (Nap)
No dreams that I can recall, pretty sure I had one though.
*11/10/12* - 2:15-8:00.
Super super tired. Kept getting woken up by Eric's snoring. DreamZ log: 5 dreams, longest dream 27 minutes, total dream time 35 minutes. Mostly in light sleep last night.
*11/11/12* - 11:00-3:00, 5:00-10:00.
Had a dream, got woken up, couldn't fall asleep so I wrote it down. When it was quieter again I fell asleep, had 2 more dreams at least. Remembered them all really well!
*11/12/12* - 1:30-7:30.
Tired, DILD is pretty passive and hasn't really been working so well, going to try some kind of WILD.*11/12/12* - 4:30-6:30.
Tried to WILD, fell asleep by accident. Pretty sure I didn't dream though.
*11/13/12* - 2:00-9:30
Had a dream but didn't remember it so well because I put off writing it. Slept very well, probably due to the nasal strips Eric and I are trying.
*11/14/12* - 1:30-8:00
Tired, will probably try to WILD or take a nap later. No idea where my dreams came from. I hate geese.
*11/15/12* - 2:00-9:00
Nothing to report.
*11/16/12* - 2:00-8:00
So tired. Would have skipped class if it wasn't for the fact that the test got moved because they lost it.
*11/17/12* - 11:00-9:00
HAD A LUCID! AHAHAHAHAHAHA. *Crazy laughter*. DILD. It went really well and was really stable, I think because I wasn't trying to force any particular thing to happen, I was just willing something to happen and letting it go. I also wasn't focused on my excitement, I was focused on the tasks I wanted to do. Great sleep too - I got tons with lots of REM. DreamZ said I had 8 dreams, longest was 26 minutes, with 2 and a half hours of REM.

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## OpheliaBlue

So you are going to bed at 2:30am? Am I reading that right?

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## Iokheira

> So you are going to bed at 2:30am? Am I reading that right?



Yes, that's correct.

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## OpheliaBlue

Oh wow I'm impressed. I almost never recall any dreams if I go to bed past midnight. I see you have different sleep times for different days of the week. Have you ever tried going to bed earlier and waking up earlier? Or going to bed earlier and doing a long WBTB, at least on the days you can sleep in? Just curious if you've experimented with sleep cycles.

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## Iokheira

> Have you ever tried going to bed earlier and waking up earlier? Or going to bed earlier and doing a long WBTB, at least on the days you can sleep in? Just curious if you've experimented with sleep cycles.



Not really, I wake up plenty early as it is (in my opinion)  :tongue2: . Going to bed earlier isn't really an option ATM, though I wish it was. I'm hesitant to try WBTB because once I'm up, I'm up, no matter how early or how tired I am. I'd be interested in experimenting more when Christmas break rolls around. Going to add DEILD to my methods, similar but not as disruptive from what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong). I'll try that during the day with naps, and maybe some on the weekend. I just don't want to disturb my mate  :smiley: 

Whenever I have time to sleep as I please, like in the summer, I naturally start sleeping from about 12:00 am to 1-2:00 pm, sometimes even 4-5. I like to sleep  :smiley:

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## paigeyemps

Hey NewArtemis! Welcome to the Intro Class! 

My greeting is quite late, I hope you'll forgive me. We've talked a bit on that chat, and I'm hoping to talk with you more in the future. Love the goals btw  ::D:

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## CanisLucidus

> I'm hesitant to try WBTB because once I'm up, I'm up, no matter how early or how tired I am. I'd be interested in experimenting more when Christmas break rolls around.



I completely understand this.  I used to be exactly this way and it drove my wife nuts.  "Why can't you go back to sleep?" she would tell me.  "Just close your eyeballs!"  But it never seemed like I could, so I _really_ resisted WBTB at first when I started trying to LD.

In the end, though, WBTB has been far and away the most productive helper technique I've used.  The great majority of my LDs come through some form of WBTB so I'd have missed out on a lot if I hadn't started using it.

What helped me was learning to quiet my mind both in general and before bed in particular.  I simply don't bring concerns to bed with me anymore and I never think about what I have to do the next day until after I've showered in the morning.  By making bed and bedtime a firewall between the concerns of the day and the concerns of tomorrow, I found myself much more able to slip back into sleep.

Also, I admit that having a couple of small kids got me more used to grabbing sleep any way I could get it.  LOL.





> Going to add DEILD to my methods, similar but not as disruptive from what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong). I'll try that during the day with naps, and maybe some on the weekend. I just don't want to disturb my mate



What concerns do you have about disturbing your mate?  Are you worried about alarms and stuff?  I actually don't use any alarms and eventually just trained myself to get up during natural awakenings.  You can enhance this with a drink of pre-bed pee water or apple juice, too.   ::D: 

I believe that Xanous uses a vibration alarm on his phone and sticks it under his pillow.

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## Iokheira

> Also, I admit that having a couple of small kids got me more used to grabbing sleep any way I could get it.  LOL.
> 
> What concerns do you have about disturbing your mate?  Are you worried about alarms and stuff?  I actually don't use any alarms and eventually just trained myself to get up during natural awakenings.  You can enhance this with a drink of pre-bed pee water or apple juice, too.



Lol! I bet that helps a lot  :smiley:  I'm fairly decent about letting my mind wander before I sleep (sometimes that's the only way I can sleep), but honestly I don't understand why I can't once I've woken up. Maybe it has to do with the amount of light... I need one of those masks.

I am worried about alarms because when I am asleep it takes something damn near a hurricane to wake me up, I need a blaring alarm right next to my head. How did you train yourself? I've been awakening after my most recent dream, but not on any of the ones earlier in the night.





> Hey NewArtemis! Welcome to the Intro Class! 
> 
> My greeting is quite late, I hope you'll forgive me. We've talked a bit on that chat, and I'm hoping to talk with you more in the future. Love the goals btw



No problem, and thanks! I plan on lurking around when I have time.  :smiley:  If you have any more ideas let me know!

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## CanisLucidus

> Lol! I bet that helps a lot  I'm fairly decent about letting my mind wander before I sleep (sometimes that's the only way I can sleep), but honestly I don't understand why I can't once I've woken up. Maybe it has to do with the amount of light... I need one of those masks.



Yes!  I think you are right on with this.  Since you go to bed at 2 am (or so), an ideal WBTB is something like 7-8 am.  Problem is, the sun's already out in full blaze by then, especially with the time change.

A lot of light, particularly sunlight, greatly hampers melatonin production.  A sleep mask and/or a good set of shades sounds like just the thing!  If you can think of any way to keep yourself in relatively low light throughout the WBTB, that's probably ideal.





> I am worried about alarms because when I am asleep it takes something damn near a hurricane to wake me up, I need a blaring alarm right next to my head. How did you train yourself? I've been awakening after my most recent dream, but not on any of the ones earlier in the night.



I became a bit of a fitness buff a few years ago so I drink a lot of water throughout the day.  Starting this led to a lot of getting up in the middle of the night to pee.  Back when I thought I "barely ever dream", getting up in the middle of the night to whiz sounded like unseemly "old man" behavior.   ::D:   I started cutting off water not too long after dinner and woke up in the middle of the night much less often.

To start WBTBing, I started drinking more pee water and just generally committing to writing down every dream I could remember as soon as I woke up.  These practices together made me much more aware of the micro-awakenings I have throughout the night.  Apple juice seems to go right through me and has tended to give me really vivid dreams.  (RareCola and paigeyemps led me to this wonderful stuff.)  I do recommend brushing your teeth after drinking a bunch of juice before bed though.   :smiley: 

Since you are a really deep sleeper, I highly recommend consulting with paigeyemps, who I know has dealt with the same deep sleeper issues.  I think she might have increased her apple juice consumption and relied on the bladder-based alarm clock...?

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## Xanous

I use a vibration alarm on my phone while it is in airplane mode. I put it under my pillow and my wife never notices it unless she is awake already. Maybe try that?

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## Chimpertainment

> I am worried about alarms because when I am asleep it takes something damn near a hurricane to wake me up, I need a blaring alarm right next to my head. How did you train yourself? I've been awakening after my most recent dream, but not on any of the ones earlier in the night.



One thing I have tried with alarms is putting it where I have to get out of bed to turn it off. Whatever alarm you choose, its gotta wake you up.  :smiley:  Personally, I use an alarm clock with bells. 


or one I have now which has the same basic design as this one:




My cell phone is really loud and it will flash a light which wakes me up before the alarm goes off. Of course, I am usually a light sleeper but there have been times where my alarms were not enough. 
Telling yourself that you will hear the alarm before you go to sleep may also help. And one more tip, we usually become very slightly aware between sleep cycles while at the same time we have more even levels of brain chemicals going on. When we wake up in the middle of a cycle, we are usually more lethargic, and sleepy. So it could be a good idea to set your alarm at one of the division points in your sleep cycle.

Also, as I have proceeded in the practice of awareness, I seem to be having more awareness during those gaps. So far, I have been moving around during these gaps but they are good things for DIELDs and WILDs. 

Anyhoo, good hunting and welcome to the classroom!  :smiley:

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## Iokheira

Ok, I've been pretty busy recently and I moved to a place with very few outlets, so my phone no longer reaches to my head, much less my hip (where I need it to be if I want DreamZ to work and give me proper data). So I haven't had much to post.

I'm trying to switch to a new schedule with my husband (about 10:00 or 11:00-6:00 am, rather than 2:00-12:00 pm). Needless to say it's kind of a b. It hasn't been working so far, even though I've been staying up to try and fall asleep at the proper time. Last night I could not sleep at all, and there's no way I could do all the things I needed to today without sleep, so I lay down and accidentally slept from 7:00-1:00 pm. Whoops.

Anyways. I just wanted to update this so you guys don't think I've given up.  :tongue2: 

Oh, and yesterday I took a nap and I'm pretty sure I DILDed because I dreamt I WILDed and did a nose-pinch (which I never do), and everything was white except some other person and me. Kind of fuzzy too. I'm not sure whether to count this or not because it only lasted about 3 seconds before a neighbor woke me up.

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## CanisLucidus

> I'm trying to switch to a new schedule with my husband (about 10:00 or 11:00-6:00 am, rather than 2:00-12:00 pm). Needless to say it's kind of a b. It hasn't been working so far, even though I've been staying up to try and fall asleep at the proper time. Last night I could not sleep at all, and there's no way I could do all the things I needed to today without sleep, so I lay down and accidentally slept from 7:00-1:00 pm. Whoops.



Yeah, changing the sleep schedule can be tough.  But congratulations on making the adjustment!

You're probably working through a little Circadian rhythm issue.  The trouble here is that your pineal gland is probably used to producing melatonin when the lights have traditionally gone out (for you, about 2 AM, it sounds like.)  Simply put, you are a little bit jet-lagged.   :smiley: 

Here's what I'd advise.  Start limiting your exposure to light late at night (particularly light in the blue wavelengths.)  If you tend to stare at a PC screen at night, consider installing something like f.lux.  This is a simple little program that at night gently turns down the blue light that your computer is emitting, which helps keep it from interfering quite as badly with your natural melatonin production.  _Try_ to keep the lights a little lower as bed time closes in.  After that, just get to bed as early as you can.

Then in the morning, have that alarm wake you up at your newly-minted wake-up time (6-7 AM.)  Then try to get out and walk and expose yourself to a lot of natural sunlight.  Sunlight of course has loads of light in the blue wavelengths, which should really help you reset your Circadian rhythms to the right spot.  This has proven absolutely crucial for us in dealing with jet-lag when travelling with small children.   :smiley: 





> Oh, and yesterday I took a nap and I'm pretty sure I DILDed because I dreamt I WILDed and did a nose-pinch (which I never do), and everything was white except some other person and me. Kind of fuzzy too. I'm not sure whether to count this or not because it only lasted about 3 seconds before a neighbor woke me up.



Totally counts, don't you think?  If you classify extremely short lucid dreams separately, then yeah, this would go there.  But that's definitely an LD.

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## Iokheira

Shoot, I totally didn't even think of how much the daylight spectrum lights we have are probably screwing me up. That looks like an interesting program too, I'll try it  :smiley:  Thanks!

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## Iokheira

I've been adjusting to my new schedule more or less ok, I keep going back to bed at 8 am and waking up at 12 pm or so, I need that much sleep.

For whatever reason though I've been waking up at 4 or 5 am for no reason and I'm not able to go back to sleep.

I've been keeping up with reality checks this week though, although it's not really a habit yet, more "Oops! Gotta do a RC." Doing it every time after I wake up and roll out of bed.

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## OpheliaBlue

Your sleep schedule sounds alot like mine haha! I enjoy the luxory of sleeping in after being awoken at 5am, then again at 7am. Some of my best lucids happen in that last chunk of sleep. Do you find this as well for you?

Whenever I wake up too early and can't get back to sleep, something that helps me is to incubate the dream I want to lull me back. I've had maybe a handful of lucids that way, though most happen much later. At the very least, it helps me get back to sleep.

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## Iokheira

Unfortunately I still haven't had a lucid since that nap one where my neighbor woke me up (if that can even be called a lucid dream, it lasted all of 2 seconds), but I do have vivid dreams. Do you picture yourself becoming lucid or just doing what you want to do?

I haven't had much luck with DEILDing either. I wake up and roll around for a bit, then "Dammit! Shouldn't have moved!" Then I roll around more and fall back asleep, no lucidity.

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## CanisLucidus

> I've been adjusting to my new schedule more or less ok, I keep going back to bed at 8 am and waking up at 12 pm or so, I need that much sleep.
> 
> For whatever reason though I've been waking up at 4 or 5 am for no reason and I'm not able to go back to sleep.



Cool, I'm glad to hear that you're getting back on track with the new sleep schedule!

Do you think there might be any way to tough it out one morning without the four-hour nap and see whether that helps you sleep through the night?  It could be good to save this for a day where you don't have to do anything particularly pressing or important.

Also, what do you do when you wake up at 4?  If you're going to bed at 11 pm or so, this could actually make for a great WBTB.  Try to stay away from screens if you can.  I admit that I do often type in my electronic DJ or even hit up DV during my WBTB, but I do so wearing enormous dork glasses that block blue wavelengths of light.  (When my wife won't see me wearing these things, lol...)  You could try meditating for 15-25 minutes then going back to bed with an induction technique.  I find a little seated breathing meditation is really relaxing.  I usually end up using SSILD after that, but that's just me... it's a great time for MILD or WILD as well.

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## Iokheira

Try to sleep for 20 minutes, lie awake and listen to my husband snore for about 10 minutes, kick him until he rolls over, repeat until alarm goes off, play on my phone if there's little chance of going back to sleep.  ::roll::  I don't know why I can tickle him, push him, kick him, and poke him and he doesn't wake up, but as soon as my foot touches the ground he's awake.

I think I will try the WBTB, but I'll go back to the guest bed. I don't really want to go without the nap, I need at minimum 10 hours, preferably 12, and right now it's 6+4. Heh I bet you do look dorky xD sounds useful though. I haven't meditated in a long time, it would be a good habit to get back into.

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## OpheliaBlue

> Do you picture yourself becoming lucid or just doing what you want to do?



I do both, but picturing myself actually becoming lucid is new for me. So I don't know how successful it is yet until I do it for a while.





> I haven't had much luck with DEILDing either. I wake up and roll around for a bit, then "Dammit! Shouldn't have moved!" Then I roll around more and fall back asleep, no lucidity.



Haha yeah that's annoying. I move around a bit sometimes, and it doesn't always mess it up. But most of the successes have been when I barely moved or didn't move at all. Or maybe just like, 1 roll  :tongue2:

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## Iokheira

Had another mini-lucid last night! Would have totally forgotten about it if it wasn't for thinking about RCing. I'm trying to up the number of times that I do that per day, I don't think what I'm doing right now is really cutting it. Unfortunately I woke up right after I became lucid, I think because I was uncomfortable (I slept on the floor last night).

I'm also reading _Lucid Dreams in 30 Days_, I already do a lot of the fundamentals but I'm trying to apply the other suggestions. I'm making a list of things to do because I like lists.

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## CanisLucidus

Excellent work, Art!  I am just blown away by how well everybody has done last night.  I've turned in sort of a stinker of a performance for the last 36 hours, so this kind of stuff is great to hear.

I felt a bit glum about things around lunch, but reading all of these successes today has been damn invigorating.

I enjoyed how during your LD you took the time to have a quick little debate about whether or not it counted as a lucid.  I hereby give it my "hell yes" stamp of congratulations/approval.

Also, really amazing NLD.  One of the best I've read in some time, no kidding.

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## OpheliaBlue

I agree, full on lucid. It counts even if you wake up right after. It's not the size that matters after all, just the thought that counts.

Wait, am I mixing my metaphors here?  :tongue2:

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## Iokheira

Lucid again! I need to stop waking up after I become lucid. It's just bad luck. Allergies are killing me and I'm still getting used to the new schedule, so I think that's why. I've also noticed that my lucids come after about 4 hours of sleep, or maybe I just remember them better then.

Anyways, I guess RCing is really helping! I think it will help even more now that classes have started and most of my dreams are on campus, and weird things happen on campus. I'm pleased and optimistic.

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## CanisLucidus

Art!!  Congratulations on the LD!

Good observation on the timing of your lucids.  Four hours could be about when your REM starts picking up.  I might be reading too much into what you're saying, but it sounds like you haven't even really needed to use a WBTB for these last few.

I'm also bringing back more reality checks into my routine.  I'd gotten out of the habit of doing them but still had lots of LDs.  What I've noticed lately, though, is that I sometimes RC _in-dream_ even though I don't have the habit IWL.  Clearly it's still important to me, and I kinda worry that I'm running on the "fumes" of old habits.  Reality checks are great tools and it's important that I don't forget what they feel like in waking life.

And good luck with classes!   :smiley:

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## Chimpertainment

waking up after a lucid can be a blessing in disguise. If one does not wake up, memory can be considerably less clear. In any case congrats!  :smiley:

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## Iokheira

Got another lucid last night!

-Before bed I had a glass of apple juice and 500 mcg of vitamin B12 (Ok, in hindsight that was stupid. But it didn't seem to adversely affect anything.)
-Woke up to pee at 4:00 am
-Fell asleep again between 4:30 and 5:00
-Had a lucid, woke up at 6:00 am

Not sure what triggered lucidity, there was no "Aha!" moment, nor any RCs. I think talking about LDing with Canis before bed helped. I also did my mantra when I was trying to fall asleep after I used the bathroom "I recognize when I'm dreaming, I remember my dreams, I do reality checks, I become lucid."

I feel like I'm not keeping up with this workbook, but other than successes I'm not quite sure what to put here, nothing in my methods has changed.

Overall I do feel like my recall is improving, my good night's sleep recall now is a lot better than my good night's sleep when I started keeping a DJ on here. However a bad night's sleep pretty much kills my recall. I need to work on getting _something_ when that happens.

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## CanisLucidus

Congratulations again on this very awesome LD!   ::goodjob::   Super happy for you.

I think that you had a lot of things going for you that helped.  Talking about lucid dreaming right beforehand is huge.  (Especially considering that this conversation got _me_ lucid too!)  The apple juice is usually great for recall and vividness (IMO because of its indirect aid in converting tryptophan to serotonin), and then on top of that, the whiz you had to take at 4 am was a lot like a WBTB.

The workbook's good for just sort of documenting what you're up to, any challenges you're facing, and sometimes to simply say, "Here's the huge success I had" or "Hey, I've been dry for a while.  Here's what I'm currently doing.  Any suggestions on what to change?"  It's really free form, but anything that keeps a dialogue about your LD practices going is good.

I am a huge hypocrite here because I didn't update my workbook much in February.  I am going to try to do better, though!

And if you solve the puzzle of how to get good recall out of a really bad night's sleep, you'll have to let me know.  That usually ruins mine!

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## Iokheira

How long are your WBTBs usually? For a while I felt like I was never going back to sleep, luckily my "insomnia cruncher" thing worked alright once I shut my mind up. I was thinking that after an hour you were kinda screwed, but I guess not  :smiley:  I was thinking that the WBTB might have been the deciding factor.

Cool, thanks for the ideas! I think I will try to do it at the least once a week.

Will do!

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## CanisLucidus

I usually stay up for exactly 30 minutes then crawl back into bed, going straight to MILD.  LaBerge found that 30 minutes or more led to the greatest increase in lucid dreaming frequency.  It sounded like going higher than 30 was good, too, but it's a bit hard for me to afford that.  Ophelia pointed me to this cool study that LaBerge's team did on WBTB length: Wakefulness Makes Lucidity More Likely

Hey, what's your insomnia cruncher?  Is this some sort of exercise device?   :Cheeky:   I want one!

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## Iokheira

What a great article, thanks for the link! I think I might try some more WBTBs then, especially since it is now spring break. (Woot!) I will try one hour for a few nights, if I can't go back to sleep then I will try 30 minutes.

Stupid name, just the thing I do when I want to go to sleep or I'm having trouble falling asleep (Much easier to type "insomnia crusher" than "the thing I do when I can't sleep"). Wouldn't surprise me if most people already did this, but I discovered it when I had horrible insomnia and it's surprisingly effective for me. I just quiet my thoughts and at first create random images, then when they become more frequent and start coming by themselves I just watch them. Don't really focus, just let them morph into one another and flash across my vision. Next thing I know I'm waking up  :smiley:

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## CanisLucidus

Cool!  You were wondering what to put in your workbook?  Well, your WBTB experiments are the perfect sort of thing to record.  That data will come in very handy for you later.  It's interesting how many patterns you can only tease out after looking back over a few days or weeks of records.  It'll be useful for me as well, since I haven't had the guts to intentionally go a lot higher than 30 minutes, but Ophelia and Paigey do more like 1.5-2 hours with great success.  Others just do a few minutes.

Hey, I like your insomnia crusher/cruncher/destroyer.  That sounds like a lot more fun than what I do (backwards counting w/ breathing and a mantra.)  Mine basically bores me into submission.   ::chuckle::

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## Iokheira

WBTB experiments so far (have been miserable failures so far)

*Sunday:*
11:30 - Bed
3:15 - Wake up to pee
Do mantra, visualization (of becoming lucid in my past dreams), read DJs, mantra again
4:15 - try to fall asleep again, have trouble (I think because of reading the DJs on my phone. Won't do that again.)
4:45 - fall asleep again
10:30 - Wake up

*Monday:*
Bed - 2:00?
Yeah. Didn't even try.

*Tuesday:*
Bed - 12:00
Alarm - 4:30
Did mantra for maybe 15 minutes, fell back asleep

* Wednesday:*
Don't even remember the alarm going off.

So I guess it could potentially work if my sleep was better. I'm exhausted and my recall has been sucking. Still, my husband gets up around 4:30 or 5:00 so I may as well keep trying.

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## CanisLucidus

I know that it doesn't feel like it, but there are a lot of good signs in these results.  First of all, the fact that you were for the most part able to get back to sleep is a very good sign.  This was the primary point of concern (or at least it's what *I* was most concerned you'd struggle with), so this is good.





> 4:15 - try to fall asleep again, have trouble (I think because of reading the DJs on my phone. Won't do that again.)



You're right on that the high levels of blue light from a screen won't do your sleep cycle any favors.  I like to hit up DV on my Kindle Fire sometimes during WBTB.  I get around the blue light problem by wearing a $7 pair of orange safety glasses that block out light in the offending wavelengths.  Imagine how cool you would look wearing a pair of these babies:



The only downside to wearing these ultra-cool glasses is that they send my sex appeal _into the stratosphere_.   ::chuckle::   The world will simply have to deal with that.





> *Monday:*
> Bed - 2:00?
> Yeah. Didn't even try.



This is the right call.  (IMO.)  I was way, way short on sleep when I went to bed last night and I just cruised right through my WBTB.  I don't use an alarm for mine, so my body just kind of naturally takes care of this.  When you're too exhausted, skip it without any feelings of guilt.





> So I guess it could potentially work if my sleep was better. I'm exhausted and my recall has been sucking. Still, my husband gets up around 4:30 or 5:00 so I may as well keep trying.



If your schedule allows you to sleep until later in the morning, 4:30-5:00 could be a great WBTB time!  Your husband's schedule may work very well for you then.

With your husband awake to appreciate your look, that's even more reason to wear those super-cool glasses at WBTB!   ::D:

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## Iokheira

Last night I took 200 mg of B6 and did a WBTB from 5:30-6:00 am.

Didn't work, and my recall was pretty much 0. Maybe in a few days. There might be a link, though I don't know why it would be doing this. My recall has been epicly sucking since I started taking an antibiotic. I've also been taking cinnamon and alpha lipoic acid, but at least the last one hasn't seemed to be doing anything.

Should be done with all three within the week.

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## CanisLucidus

Ahh, bummer about your recall!  You had such great luck with B6 the last time that _even though I know not to believe in magic pills/potions_, I kinda had this feeling like it'd be an ultra-reliable lucidity trigger for you.   :smiley:   Hey, did you happen to eat any carbs before bed?  I seem to have the best luck when I do that (and there are some physiological reasons why this _may_ help), but it's certainly no hard-and-fast rule that you have to do it.  There are several ways in which B6 could potentially participate in dreaming, and carbs help with one of those pathways.  (The tryptophan -> serotonin pathway.)

I'm glad to hear that the WBTB went pretty smoothly.  It seems like a solid 30-minute WBTB isn't presenting you nearly the kind of trouble it did in the past.  You've got that earlier sleep schedule going now, and with the time change, it's still super dark outside at 6 AM, which I find really helps.

BTW, I know that you were coming off of an all-nighter before that.  Maybe you just really, really needed huge chunks of deep sleep last night.  If you get another good night's sleep tonight, maybe your body will do some REM catch-up.

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## Iokheira

I had B12 last time (bad, I know). No carbs last night, my stomach has been kind of bugging me so I thought it would be better if I didn't. In a few days I want to do it all right though!

Yeah, it's really great! Still gives me a lot of time to fall back asleep. I just keep my sleep mask on which really helps, but I think I need to sit up or something because I'm pretty sure I was going in and out.

Yes, that gives me hope! My recall hasn't been this bad for a long time, and it's a bit depressing. It'll go back though!

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## CanisLucidus

> I had B12 last time (bad, I know). No carbs last night, my stomach has been kind of bugging me so I thought it would be better if I didn't. In a few days I want to do it all right though!



I don't know if there's any other reason you're worried about taking B12, but I have read that it can increase levels of histamine.  Apparently, this can do positive things for dream control.  I have not played with this myself at all, but those are some vague ideas I've been exposed to.





> Yeah, it's really great! Still gives me a lot of time to fall back asleep. I just keep my sleep mask on which really helps, but I think I need to sit up or something because I'm pretty sure I was going in and out.
> 
> Yes, that gives me hope! My recall hasn't been this bad for a long time, and it's a bit depressing. It'll go back though!



Ah cool!  Glad that's working for you.  I like that you're just sort of gently moving toward what works for you without risking insomnia too much.  Since you've tussled with insomnia from time to time, playing it safe like this seems like exactly the right way to go.

And yes, your dream recall will _definitely_ be back.  Your recall is usually world-class, so I know that it makes zero recall nights a little harder to bear.  When those dreams come rushing back, just remember to realize that you're dreaming.   :smiley:   I'll try very hard to drop you an in-dream VM to this effect.

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## Chimpertainment

You seem to be doing well Art, and more to come im sure. 
I would just say, wbtb can be tricky, and making it a part of your sleeping habits can be a chore. Finding the end of your deep sleep cycle is important to calculate when your chances are the best. Usually it goes for about 4-5 hours and your chances are much higher after that. After a while of using the alarm, you may even begin waking up at the time naturally and with little effort. As long as its a consistent habit, the body typically has no problem working it out. 
It took me a while to learn wbtb on a consistent basis, but its a very effective way of improving your dream experience. 
Keep it up, and more dreams will come  :smiley:

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## Iokheira

-Took 200mg of B6 with a glass of apple juice
-Went to bed around 12:00 I think, a bit earlier than usual
-Became lucid a few times in the early night, but felt really tired and not all there, so I let each one go. (Take advantage! Gah!)
-Woke up at 5:30 for my WBTB, feeling much more awake than I usually do
-Husband didn't leave for work until 6:20, I usually try for 6:00 to go to sleep
-Tried to sleep until 7:30, no luck

I think part of the problem was going to bed earlier than usual, so I had more sleep than usual, so I wasn't tired enough to fall back asleep. Staying awake longer than I was planning also didn't help.

The reason I'm doing my WBTB so late is because I'm worried that if I do it earlier, I will get a lucid and have my husband wake me up either by doing morning stuff or saying goodbye. I would be totally pissed if he woke me up from a lucid.

But now I missed out on lucid fun, had poor dream recall, I'm freaking tired, and I have a biology test today. This sucks.

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## CanisLucidus

*Wow!*  I know that you feel disappointed about the experiences that you missed out on but this sounds like a really big night for you!  When we're going for lucids, there are two goals in mind: first, of course, is to have a hell of a lot of fun.  But the second thing that we're doing is _learning and practicing for the future_.  And it sounds like you did a ton of that last night.

Before anything else, we can't let this go by uncelebrated: _you became lucid multiple times in one night, all before you even hit your WBTB!_  This is a huge accomplishment!  The level of potential this hints at is incredibly exciting.  I've only become lucid a handful of times pre-WBTB, and definitely never had multiple incidents of lucidity that early in the night.  Good!!   ::goodjob:: 

Did you get any sense of what time you started hitting all of those lucids?  This could be good to know for the future in planning your bedtime or WBTB time (if you use alarms for that...?)

The fact that you intentionally let these lucids go is really interesting.  I've only let lucidity go a couple of times that I can remember, both out of fear.  How would you describe your state of mind?  Just mentally exhausted?  Almost as if you were too sleepy to go on?  I'll think about this problem some more and try to come up with a few ideas.  It's an interesting situation.

Anyway, even though I know this wasn't the most fun night, you have learned a ton about yourself.  The fact that you're capable of hitting multiple LDs in a night like that is crazy exciting!  Last night was just one night.  Now that you realize what you're capable of, think of what this means for the _thousands and thousands_ of nights still ahead of you.   ::content::

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## Iokheira

You know what? That is a great way to look at it and I should stop being all mopey.  :smiley:  I have never had multiple lucids in a night, so that is an accomplishment!

I'm guessing it was 2-3 am, but really no idea since I don't recall waking up afterwards. 4 at the very latest. I don't think any of them were triggered by recognition or anything I did, it's just like my brain wanted to become lucid no matter how I felt about it. I wonder what the exact recipe for that is!

My state of mind. Mostly really tired. You know how you reach that level in tiredness where even doing something fun is a pain? Like that. And waking up in the middle of a lake, on a place where my paws could slip off... work. The whole feeling was more "Gahhh I'm awake" rather than "Woohoo! I'm lucid, baby!"

You are an awesome encouragement! Thanks  ::D:

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## CanisLucidus

> You know what? That is a great way to look at it and I should stop being all mopey.  I have never had multiple lucids in a night, so that is an accomplishment!
> 
> I'm guessing it was 2-3 am, but really no idea since I don't recall waking up afterwards. 4 at the very latest. I don't think any of them were triggered by recognition or anything I did, it's just like my brain wanted to become lucid no matter how I felt about it. I wonder what the exact recipe for that is!



Yeah, you should be super proud of this!  I certainly am.  Four lucids in one night, all without the WBTB... I can't tell you how excited this gets me.

I would love to know what it takes to make my brain just _want_ to become lucid like that.  This is, I think, the end goal that every aspiring lucid dreamer hopes is possible.  Where most dreams become DILDs, simply because it's what your brain _knows_ to do.  That would be so amazing!   ::smitten::   I love that you got a taste of that.

One thing's for sure.  This Tuesday I'm going for apple juice + 200mg B-6.   ::goodjob2:: 





> My state of mind. Mostly really tired. You know how you reach that level in tiredness where even doing something fun is a pain? Like that. And waking up in the middle of a lake, on a place where my paws could slip off... work. The whole feeling was more "Gahhh I'm awake" rather than "Woohoo! I'm lucid, baby!"
> 
> You are an awesome encouragement! Thanks



That's interesting, and yeah, the description makes sense.  One thing that comes to mind is that in the early stages of sleep, adenosine levels are still really high.  From a high level, adenosine is what builds up in our brains throughout the day and makes us feel irresistibly sleepy.  (Caffeine makes you feel alert in part because it is an adenosine antagonist.)  So maybe this feeling of high adenosine levels bleeds into early dreams?  Since you've never experienced this during your post-WBTB lucids, you may only hit it in these really early dreams.

And thanks, I'm so glad to help in any way that I can!  And "encouraged" only begins to describe how I feel reading all this and thinking about the possibility of hitting 4 pre-WBTB DILDs!   ::dreaming::

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## Iokheira

Had a glass of apple juice and 200 mg of vitamin B6 last night around 11:00. Was planning on doing a WBTB, but couldn't fall asleep until 2:30 so I turned off the alarm.

Don't remember dream, don't remember waking up or resetting my alarm, don't remember waking up after the second alarm.

Going to try to catch up on sleep more before I do anything, too damn tired to experiment more.

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## CanisLucidus

Ouch, sorry about the mini-insomnia!  Yeah, I think you're doing the right thing.  It's probably best to save the serious experimenting for when you're more caught up on your rest.  My results tend to be really rocky if I'm dealing with lots of fatigue.  I paid for my LD last night with a bit of insomnia, so similar to you I'm not going to attempt any meaningful WBTB or any other serious induction.  Just a bit of MILD and hope to catch something.  But mostly, just _sleep_.

The unfortunate thing for you is that your insomnia probably messed up your supplement strategy quite directly.  After nearly 4 hours, you've lost a lot of the benefit of taking the B6+apple juice "NewArtemis Special".  One of the effects you're going for is elevated tryptophan in the brain and then easier conversion of that tryptophan to serotonin thanks to the B6.  That should mean lots of serotonin and deep sleep in the early part of the night, then REM rebound in the morning.  But if sleep comes much later after you take the AJ + B6, the effect is probably greatly diminished.

Just catch up on that sleep and get back to it when you're rested!  I know I'll be following that plan tonight.

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## Iokheira

Pulled an unintentional all-nighter on Sunday, so yesterday I went to bed at about 5:30 pm. Woke up this morning at 5:30, could have slept longer if I didn't hear the alarm. Did SSILD and mantra, but couldn't go back to sleep. Going to try and keep doing backwards memory thing at night (which is great anyways cause my memory sucks), and SSILD and mantra during WBTB or any time I wake up in the night.

I imagine I'll be hitting REM rebound tomorrow and I hope for a lucid  :smiley:

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## CanisLucidus

Sounds like a good plan!  I'm really glad you got caught up on sleep.  Since you had slept for 12 hours, it's not a complete surprise that you had trouble pulling off a "WBTB".  If you have any trouble with insomnia during SSILD in the future, there are a lot of tweaks to cycle length, number of cycles, etc. that we can do to help avoid that.





> I imagine I'll be hitting REM rebound tomorrow and I hope for a lucid



Hell yes to both of these.  We've seen you on REM rebound and it's pretty awesome.   ::goodjob2::   Looking forward to reading that lucid!

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## Xanous

Good luck! GO get lucid! Whoooo!

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