# Lucid Dreaming > Dream Control >  >  The Nature of Dream Control

## The Cusp

I believe there are but two simple rules that govern and dictate the shape every single aspect of dreaming.  I believe this holds the key to the true nature of dream control, and that understanding it leads to much more frequent lucid dreams as well.

I'm also beginning to suspect that this rule applies to the waking world as well, and that the dream control skills mastered through understanding of this concept can be used to influence the waking world.  I expect this to be demonstratable, not as a physical proof, but as something that can be experienced.

*1. Everything in your dreams requires your attention to exist.*

*2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.*

It sounds overly simple, but the implications are infinitely complex. Every single dream unfolds according to those two rules without exception.  This isn't anything new, but something you've been doing all along without being aware of it.  It may not be clear at first, but like one of those hidden pictures you have to look at cross eyed, it eventually jumps out at you.  You just have to learn how to see it. 

I have a _lot to_ say on this subject, and hardly know where to begin.  I'll be making a series of posts where I try to expand on various aspects and applications, many of which may have small exercises, tasks or questions.  I'll of course try to answer any questions in the meantime.

Either this will completely change the way you dream, or I'm completely nuts.  I'm anxious to find out which, so feedback and participation will be greatly appreciated. 


I want to note that *strong emotions* have an overwhelming role in shaping dreams, much like a colored lens.  Emotions are still something you pay attention to, but their effects are so dramatic I feel they deserve a special mention.

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## The Cusp

*1. Everything in your dreams requires your attention to exist.
*

While this may seem obvious, it's still one of the most basic principles of dreaming.  The only things that exist in a dream are things that you are aware of.  It's not complete world that you wander around in and explore.  As soon as you stop paying attention to something and forget about it, it ceases to exist.  If you are in a closed room and can't see the outside, then the outside doesn't exist.  When you open to door to go outside, it could lead anywhere, into space or hell or the city of the mole people.  

The point is, nothing exists in your dreams until you become aware of it.  Much like Schrodinger's Cat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat

This can be a useful tool I've used effectively in the past to deal enemies while lucid.  If you don't pay something any attention, it will cease to exist.  Kind of like when your parents told you as a kid to just ignore whoever is bothering you (I hate it when they're right!).

The skill to be learned here is to learn what things you pay attention to.  Ask different people who walked down the same street what they saw, and a bird watcher would tell you about the rare wood pecker he saw, a child would tell you about the playground they passed, your wife would tell you about those shoes on sale, and I would tell you about that girl in the short skirt.  :wink2:   What are the things that captivate your attention, and how do these things make you feel?  How do they affect your life?

Some things you pay attention to are beneficial, and some are detrimental.  If you are prone to only noticing the bad in people, then interacting with people is going to be a pain in the ass.  If you focus more on the good in people, then it can be a rewarding experience.

You have to learn to selectively ignore the things that don't do you any good, and focus on those things that accomplish your goals.  During a dream, the effects of doing so are quite drastic, but practicing this while awake will have echoed results in your dreams, as well as be beneficial to you on several levels in RL.

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## The Cusp

*2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.*

The first rule determines the content of your dreams, this one determines how much of that content is going to be in you dreams.

The key to using this rule to your advantage is *balance*.  Too much attention can pull you in like a black hole, creating a universe of detail which can also captivate your attention, further aggravating the situation.  On the other hand, if you don't pay elements in your dreams enough attention, they become unstable in accordance with the first rule of dreaming, that things need your attention to exist.

 There are many "traps" in dreaming that capture your attention, distracting you with unnecessary detail.  A good example is a tooth dream.  You notice something wrong with your teeth, take a closer look, and then find more things wrong with them the more you look.  This is something you don't want to get trapped in, but this kind of extreme can be used to your advantage.  By focusing more on the positive and useful elements you will overwrite the dream scene with new detail.  The degree of change depends on what you focus on (first rule) and how much you focus (second rule).

Let's take a closer look at the second half of this rule now.  The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates *in relation to what you are focused on.*  Initially I thought there would be  a great many things vying for your attention which had a culmulative effect on shaping the dream.  But in practice there were very few main elements, and the links between them were very straightforward.

The detail that arises from your increased attention or focus is formed by mental associations in your mind in relation to the element of your focus.  These mental associations can take many forms, some direct, some abstract, like associated memories tied to a place or object.  But this doesn't mean you have to settle for random associations.  There are always unlimited ways to zoom your focus, even when there are relatively few elements to choose from.

Say you were to focus on a physical object.  You could focus on what it is, what it's used for.  You could focus on it's age, history, previous owner.  You could focus on it's texture or what it's made of.  Or you could use it to reach related memories, perhaps ones with useful elements you could use or expand on.  Try each of those perspectives while experiencing strong emotions and you can tweak the flavor of your dream even further.  Each of these approaches to the same element will yield different yet reliably predictable results.

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## The Cusp

*A Deeper Look at the Effect of Emotions*

Again, I feel *emotions* deserve a special mention.  I'm assuming for the moment that emotions are something that require your attention to exist as well.  But I'm not too sure about that at all, and the emotional influence may turn out a third rule.  Anyone have any thoughts on weather emotions are something that require your attention to exist, or whether they they are independent entities?

Emotions are like a *filter* or like a *color lens*.  Each emotion shapes your dreams in predictable ways, affecting both your surroundings and the behavior of DCs.  Anger will cause harsh colors and sharp angles, and my cause DCs to fight or fear you.  The effects of fear are obvious, painfully so in dreams.

Both this *Emotional technique* and the the *Attention technique* can be used independently, or in combination with each other.  Sometimes it may be better to use one technique over the other.  The emotional technique won't change the physical elements as drastically as the Attention technique, but will change the look, feel and mood of the dream, as well as influence DC behavior.

By practicing this you will begin to notice that DCs are puppets and you are the puppet master, only your emotions are the strings.  You can influence the way DCs act, and the types of things they say, but not what they say.  It's interesting to note that people in RL react the same way in the presence of strong emotions as do DCs.  After the confidence and practice gained from using this in dreams, it would stand to reason that this could be used to influence people in RL as well.  It seems people do this all the time anyways, but very clumsily for the most part.  

You must be capable of being able to summon up any emotion at will, and not let the ones that arise naturally to rule you.  The benefits of positive emotions are obvious, but even the so called negative emotions have their uses.  Anger can often make thing go your way.  Even fear could be used to lure someone close, then you switch to a confident rage.  But you would have to actually feel the fear, not feign it.  And always make sure you are in control of the emotions, not the other way around.

Strong emotions are best as well.  So strong they radiate out from you, or perhaps vibrate would be a more appropriate term.  I think this part ties into Aquanina's work with High Vibrational Frequency.

This can be practiced in dreams, or in RL like a reality check.  As with the previous parts, these things become more apparent in RL after you become accustomed to seeing the dramatic effect they have in dreams.

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## The Cusp

*Schemas and AI*

I was going to expand on Archetypes, Schemas, and Artificial Intelligenge to try to give a better understanding of the types of associations that are made when new detail is formed as a result of your attention.  But it turn out Archetypes are a type of Schema, along with stereotypes, social roles, and worldviews.  Of particular interest inception of the Schema concept.

The following article is from the Wikipedia entry on Schemas.

_The original concept of schemata is linked with that of reconstructive memory as proposed and demonstrated in a series of experiments by Bartlett (1932). By presenting participants with information that was unfamiliar to their cultural backgrounds and expectations and then monitoring how they recalled these different items of information (stories, etc.), Bartlett was able to establish that individuals' existing schemata and stereotypes influence not only how they interpret 'schema-foreign' new information but also how they recall the information over time. One of his most famous investigations involved asking participants to read a Native American folk tale, "The War of the Ghosts," and recall it several times up to a year later. All the participants transformed the details of the story in such a way that it reflected their cultural norms and expectations, i.e. in line with their schemata. The factors that influenced their recall were:

    * Omission of information that was considered irrelevant to a participant;
    * Transformation of some of the detail, or of the order in which events etc were recalled; a shift of focus and emphasis in terms of what was considered the most important aspects of the tale;
    * Rationalisation: details and aspects of the tale that would not make sense would be 'padded out' and explained in an attempt to render them comprehensible to the individual in question;
    * Cultural shifts: The content and the style of the story were altered in order to appear more coherent and appropriate in terms of the cultural background of the participant.

Bartlett's work was crucially important in demonstrating that long-term memories are neither fixed nor immutable but are constantly being adjusted as our schemata evolve with experience. In a sense it supports the existentialist view that we construct our past and present in a constant process of narrative/discursive adjustment, and that much of what we 'remember' is actually confabulated (adjusted and rationalised) narrative that allows us to think of our past as a continuous and coherent string of events, even though it is probable that large sections of our memory (both episodic and semantic) are irretrievable to our conscious memory at any given time.

Further work on the concept of schemas was conducted by Brewer and Treyens (1981) who demonstrated that the schema-driven expectation of the presence of an object was sometimes sufficient to trigger its erroneous recollection. An experiment was conducted where participants were requested to wait in a room identified as an academic's study and were later asked about the room's contents. A number of the participants recalled having seen books in the study whereas none were present. Brewer and Treyens concluded that the participants' expectations that books are present in academics' studies were enough to prevent their accurate recollection of the scenes._

For starters, lets look at the factors that influenced recall.

    * *Omission of information*.  
First rule, without your attention, things can't exist

    * *Transformation of some of the detail; a shift of focus and emphasis in terms of what was considered the most important aspects of the tale;*
Again, a combination of the first and second rule, and your most powerful tool in dream control.

*    * Rationalisation: details and aspects of the tale that would not make sense would be 'padded out' and explained in an attempt to render them comprehensible to the individual in question;*
Second rule, attention creates detail.

*    * Cultural shifts: The content and the style of the story were altered in order to appear more coherent and appropriate in terms of the cultural background of the participant.*
This sounds like the effect emotions have on dreams.  Is it possible different cultures have an identifying emotional state?

These factors responsible for flaws inconsistencies in long term memory just happen to be the tools of dream control!  The links to memory make me wonder if dreams are really dynamic memories kept alive by our attention.  


And now for an Artificial Intelligence approach.  A binary yes or no system may be easier to picture than fancy notions like Schemata.

Consider training an artificial neural network to understand language, starting with a concept like tree.  You could manually create links to words like grows, leaves, branches.  Alternatively, you expose the network repeated instances of trees until it learns on it's own.  Links to words like outside would be formed, but not all instances of trees would necessarily be outside, some may be indoors, so another link to indoors is formed.  But the majority of trees being outside, the path to "outside" gets used more and gains weight, becomes more substantial.  The more connections or paths your word has, then better the understanding your AI will have.

You have to learn to travel those weighted paths or synapses without getting lost within their endless nature.

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## The Cusp

I would like some feedback on this.  I could go on and on, but if nobody cares, I'll keep it to myself.

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## arby

You just proved the existence of the "Somebody else's problem" (SEP) fields.

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## Soldier

::shock::  you've had alot on your mind I'd advise people not to skim over this, I had to read that 3 times to grasp what your saying and you've opened the door on a few subjects. emotions- I never really thought that would have effects on your dream, I'll use that to my advantage. attention tech- one thing I've had trouble with is boobs, I like your bad teeth example because that ties in with my problem. when I go to fuck a girl I take off her shirt and her tits are terrible not just small but oddly shaped, the more I'd look at them the worse they would get. I've yet to solve this problem and I think you have the answer but how do I look at the good side with them?

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## CrazyJelly

> You just proved the existence of the "Somebody else's problem" (SEP) fields.



Hah! Hitchikers guide to the Galaxy FtW!!! xD
I love that book soo much. 
Giggle

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## The Cusp

> You just proved the existence of the "Somebody else's problem" (SEP) fields.



Lol, I used the SEP analogy in relation to this subject elsewhere!





> one thing I've had trouble with is boobs, I like your bad teeth example because that ties in with my problem. when I go to fuck a girl I take off her shirt and her tits are terrible not just small but oddly shaped, the more I'd look at them the worse they would get. I've yet to solve this problem and I think you have the answer but how do I look at the good side with them?



The way excessive attention works is kind of like tunnel vision.  You zoom in and it creates lots of related detail.  I've been thinking about how to do the opposite of this, and I think it would be using *Peripheral Vision.*  Instead of focusing one one element, try to take in as much of the scene as possible.  I've yet to experiment extensively with this, but if my theory is correct, it using your peripheral vision should keep things more stable.

In relation to your boob specific problem, there are many associations in your mind with the concept of "boob".  They can be nasty like in you dreams, with associations like oddly shaped, wrinkly, veiny, ect.  You could view it in a reproductive role, with associations such as mild, child, reproduction, ect.  Or you could go with aesthetic qualities, firm, round, bouncy.  Try to follow the links that take you where you want to go without taking any wrong turns.

You could also pay attention to other dream elements that have similar properties as you'd like to see in your boobs.  Perhaps ripe fruit, water ballons, or... uh... fluffy pillows?  

Try not focusing on things as a whole, but only on selective qualities that you want to amplify.

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## The Cusp

After a lot experimentation, I have some thoughts on how this works in practice.

There seems to be a more general control, rather than specific control.  Say I wanted to summon a monster with 6 arms, 8 eyes, purple fur, hooves and a tail.  It most likely wouldn't work.  But I could summon a general monster, and then tweak it's characteristics until becomes like I want.

It also seems to work more reliably when you focus on your goal, but not how you accomplish it.  First of all, it's really hard to know where to begin to make something happen.  When you have infinite possibilities at your disposal, it's hard to pick just one.  By focusing on what you want, the "how" will take care of it's self.

*
Back in the Real World*
I've been keeping an eye out for this process in action in the waking world, and I'm beginning to see it happening more and more.  I've been a little shy in practicing this type of dream control in RL, mainly because I feel bad about manipulating people like that.  

The other day on the bus, this woman had caught me checking out the girls on the bus.  Not wanting to seem like a perv, I figured this would be a good time to reset my attention.  So I focused in on the first thing I noticed, the yellow hand bars on the bus.  Actually I just focused on the color yellow, zooming in my attention like I do in my dream.  Immediately the yellow color became 2-3 times brighter than it was originally.  After that I began to see bright yellow everywhere, where I hadn't noticed it before.  People wearing yellow outside the bus, yellow on the store fronts, just everywhere.  There was so much yellow around me, it no longer seemed real, but dream like.  It just didn't seem possible that there would be that much yellow around, it was like a tooth dream gone bad, only I was pulled into a sea of yellow! 

One application of this kind of dream control over people I don't feel bad about using, is *flirting*.  I've never been much good at that, but now it's a whole new ball game.  Things like how to capture and direct a girl's attention are so much easier now.  Before it was like playing a game where I didn't know the rules, now it's like a game of Calvin Ball, where I make up the rules as I go along so that things turn out in my favor.

Another application I not sure I should go through with is at work.  My partner at work is hard to get along with.  He wasn't in yesterday, and I worked with another guy who's partner didn't show.  We were both happy to have a break from the people we work with.  Now I'm wondering if I shouldn't switch partners.  Using this technique, I could make it happen easily with only a few words here and there, without anyone that I was the one that made it happen.  But just because I can change something doesn't mean I should.  Would things really improve if I went ahead with it?  Asking directly to switch partners would cause a lot of tension at work, and the boss probably wouldn't do it just to spite me.  But this subtle approach to change is very tempting.

First off, I want to mention an article I came across (which I can't find at the moment) which supports my dreaming/awake link.  It said that the dreaming state persists even while awake.  So while you dream, you are just dreaming.  But while you are awake, you are awake + dreaming.  It would suggest dreaming is the totality of existence.  Anyone see anything about that?  I've had too many beers to find it right now.


Going back to the notion that your dreams are formed by sum of your attention, where you direct your attention while dreaming has a direct influence.  But there is also a residual spillover effect from where you direct your attention in the waking world.  This spillover can be from the that day's events, or events deep in your past.  

Which raises the question "How much can you pay attention to at once?"  Or what is the maximum number of things that it is possible to pay attention to?  For an indirect, roundabout answer, I'd like to introduce the notion of *The MonkeySphere*.  The following is a very entertaining article on the subject.

It also sheds some light on the behavior of DCs, and how we view them.

http://www.cracked.com/article_14990...keysphere.html

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## Mini Man56

I'm WAY too lazy to read all that, but I saw the two rules at the top and how you think it might affect real life. In fact, I use this method a lot, and it IS a lot like dream control. If you're intrested in mastering life control, (yeah, not dream control, LIFE control) rent the movie called "The Secret." It explains EVERYTHING. Trust me, it will chande your life! ::D:  Now don't think I'm crazy, I'm not saying things insta-poof like in dreams, and your still not gonna be able to fly, :tongue2:  but just look into it. :wink2:

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## The Cusp

> I'm WAY too lazy to read all that, but I saw the two rules at the top and how you think it might affect real life. In fact, I use this method a lot, and it IS a lot like dream control. If you're intrested in mastering life control, (yeah, not dream control, LIFE control) rent the movie called "The Secret." It explains EVERYTHING. Trust me, it will chande your life! Now don't think I'm crazy, I'm not saying things insta-poof like in dreams, and your still not gonna be able to fly, but just look into it.



OK, I finally watched The Secret.  I hadn't before now because I felt I knew what it was about, but I never realized how close it is to my dream theory.  A lot of it echoes what I've been trying to say.  They beat me to the punch! 

Still, I'd like to scratch a little deeper than that, or at least approach it from another angle.  In this case dreaming.

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## LucidM!nds

Sounds interesting...

So, basically what you're saying is
I direct my attention to a guitar. Once I give it my attention, it exists because I'm aware of it...Then I can observe the details of the guitar...

I see a red Fender Stratocaster. It's got six strings, and a mohagany fretboard with sharktooth inlays. 24 frets total, and three humbucking pickups. It's got one volume control, as well as two tone contol knobs on the bottom right side of the body. It's got a whammy bar and a black pick guard 

With the description of said guitar, once could assume I covered the basics like:
-color (red)
-Brand (Strat)
-Manufacturer (Fender)
-body type (six-string, 24 frets, mohagany fretboard, sharktooth inlays)
-accessories (whammy bar, volume and tone knobs, pick guard)

So let's say I want a Gibson instead...

Here's where Schemata comes in. A Schema is simply a building block that helps build an image in your mind. So let's take "guitar"

When you think of guitar, what comes to mind?
*Amplifiers* *Players* *strings* *manufacturers* 
-half-stack      /   -Angus Young     /        -Earnie Ball   /    -Fender
-bass amp        /  -Jimi Page            /       -DR             /    -Ibanez
-effects box       /-Slash                   /    -D'ajarrio        /   -Gibson

I wanted a gibson, bit I'm paying attention to a Fender. Using the schemea of "guitar" I can customize my guitar the way I want. I already know what a 'Gibson Les Paul' looks like, so I can change the Fender Strat's shape into that of a Gibson. Now let's say I still wanted the sharktooth inlays on my Gibson...Well, just take the inlays (and, pretty much any other desirable feature) and put them on the fretboard of the new guitar you've just made.
My new guitar:

I see a gold Gibson Les Paul. It's got six strings, a mohagany fretboard with sharktooth inlays. 24 frets, and two humbucking pickpus. No whammy bar, no pick guard, and two volume and tone knobs each.

Basically, the details of the object of attention are effected by the amount of information you've accumulated within your schema of said object.

Does this make sense? Did I understand the subject correctly? Let me know!

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## The Cusp

Yes LucidM!nds, I say you've got the gist of it.

Although I don't know how reliable it would be for fine tuning relatively minor details such as the type of guitar in your scenario.  I've been using it in a broader perspective.  Like using the Mahogany of the body to create the forest the wood came from, or just using the guitar it's self to summon groupies. :wink2: 

For instance, I recently had a dream where I was traveling through my own intestines.  In the following night's dreams, I was able to use that experience to give a DC who was harassing me a major case of gut rot, effectively incapacitating him.

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## Grassclip

The first part is interesting in that it also relates to real life.  Right now Mr. Cusp, you exist in my reality.  I see your icon and your posts.  As soon as I look away and/or forget about you, you cease to exist in my reality.  Though you are funcitoning whereever you are, you, and most of the 6 billion people on this planet DO NOT EXIST.  As soon as I give my attention to something, it exists again.

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## Mini Man56

> The first part is interesting in that it also relates to real life.  Right now Mr. Cusp, you exist in my reality.  I see your icon and your posts.  As soon as I look away and/or forget about you, you cease to exist in my reality.  Though you are funcitoning whereever you are, you, and most of the 6 billion people on this planet DO NOT EXIST.  As soon as I give my attention to something, it exists again.




I wouldn't say that. He contributes to reality with his attention too, and I doubt he's gonna forget himself. But if NOBODY was paying attention to something, then it would cease to exist.

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## Grassclip

If someone's actions do not directly influence my life, then they do not exist.  Same goes for you.  As soon as you forget about this topic, I cease to exist in your world since I have no dirct influence on your decisions in your life.

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## The Cusp

Like someone who thinks they saw a UFO.  To them, they know it's real, but to a non believer, it's not.  How about people who are undecided?  It's kind of like Schrodinger's Cat.  I've actually heard a theory that says the reason the government is covering up UFOs is because if the public acknowledged them it would make them more real and they could travel here easier, or something like that.  (Just an example, please don't debate UFOs here)

As you can see for two simple rules, it sure gets complicated pretty fast.  The Secret left _a lot_ stuff out.  I've been putting off getting into the kind of RL existence confusion above, because it's equivalent aspect in dreaming is *Shared Dreaming*.  And the last thing I want is for this thread to be buried in the beyond dreaming section.  I'm going to have to get into that eventually, but I'd like to get a few more constructive posts in on it's dreaming applications before I completely ruin this thread's credibility.

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## ninja9578

Nice one Cusp  :smiley:

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## imj

> I believe there are but two simple rules that govern and dictate the shape every single aspect of dreaming. I believe this holds the key to the true nature of dream control, and that understanding it leads to much more frequent lucid dreams as well.
> 
> I'm also beginning to suspect that this rule applies to the waking world as well, and that the dream control skills mastered through understanding of this concept can be used to influence the waking world. I expect this to be demonstratable, not as a physical proof, but as something that can be experienced.
> 
> *1. Everything in your dreams requires your attention to exist.*
> 
> *2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.*
> 
> It sounds overly simple, but the implications are infinitely complex. Every single dream unfolds according to those two rules without exception. This isn't anything new, but something you've been doing all along without being aware of it. It may not be clear at first, but like one of those hidden pictures you have to look at cross eyed, it eventually jumps out at you. You just have to learn how to see it. 
> ...



Yes, you are 100% correct. I use emotion, paying attention to items I want to use in the lucid dream to 'create' the lucid dream. No emotion = No lucid dreams.

IMJ

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## LucidM!nds

> Yes LucidM!nds, I say you've got the gist of it.
> 
> Although I don't know how reliable it would be for fine tuning relatively minor details such as the type of guitar in your scenario. I've been using it in a broader perspective. Like using the Mahogany of the body to create the forest the wood came from, or just using the guitar it's self to summon groupies.



 
So instead of using the root of a cherry tree to create _another_ cherry tree with different color fruit/leaves, you can use the root to create furniture (perhaps entire buildings) out of cherrywood?

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## The Cusp

> So instead of using the root of a cherry tree to create _another_ cherry tree with different color fruit/leaves, you can use the root to create furniture (perhaps entire buildings) out of cherrywood?



You could do both, but the first one sounds easier.  It's more of a natural connection.

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## Wicked

> *1. Everything in your dreams requires your attention to exist.*





I attest for the truthfulness of this rule. One of my LD tricks to rid of things is to stop thinking about them and distract my mind with other things. That's how I got rid of a tsunami (which is a recurring theme that I usually have problems with) once, by turning my back on it and thinking of other things. Another time, a huge wild dog-like beast was lunging toward me. It missed, and I didn't turn around and didn't think about it. It just never appeared for a second round. It dissapeared.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, this rule is often a pain in my butt, as it severely limits the speed at which I can fly. I just can't think up new landscape fast enough to keep up, and very rarely does my subconscious does this job for me. Usually I am left with limited speed (and very limited flight ceiling for that matter), although some flying techniques I've read about on this board helped me somewhat in this regard.





> *2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.*





Incredibly correct as well. In one LD I admired how detailed the world is, that I can closely see the skin pores on the back of my hand, and all the multitude of details on an office desk (including the desk's texture, a plant with small details like leaves, unopened letters lying about, pens etc.) But for the heck of me, I can never remember what I'm wearing in this dreams. That's because I never put any thought into it, I just know that I'm dressed, and that's it. If I put any thought into it, I suspect I will discover I'm naked or something (although in contrast with my childhood dreams/nightmares, being naked in a dream doesn't disturb me in the slightest. The people surrounding me will react in any way to my nakedness only if I will so).

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## Wicked

> *Schemas and AI*
> 
> I was going to expand on Archetypes, Schemas, and Artificial Intelligenge to try to give a better understanding of the types of associations that are made when new detail is formed as a result of your attention. But it turn out Archetypes are a type of Schema, along with stereotypes, social roles, and worldviews. Of particular interest inception of the Schema concept.
> 
> The following article is from the Wikipedia entry on Schemas.
> 
> _The original concept of schemata is linked with that of reconstructive memory as proposed and demonstrated in a series of experiments by Bartlett (1932). By presenting participants with information that was unfamiliar to their cultural backgrounds and expectations and then monitoring how they recalled these different items of information (stories, etc.), Bartlett was able to establish that individuals' existing schemata and stereotypes influence not only how they interpret 'schema-foreign' new information but also how they recall the information over time. One of his most famous investigations involved asking participants to read a Native American folk tale, "The War of the Ghosts," and recall it several times up to a year later. All the participants transformed the details of the story in such a way that it reflected their cultural norms and expectations, i.e. in line with their schemata. The factors that influenced their recall were:_
> 
> _* Omission of information that was considered irrelevant to a participant;_
> ...



OK, the part about schemes was clear, even though I don't see how that's relevant to LDs. But the AI part... it's like it's Chinesse.

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## The Cusp

> [/b][/size]
> EDIT: I forgot to mention, this rule is often a pain in my butt, as it severely limits the speed at which I can fly. I just can't think up new landscape fast enough to keep up, and very rarely does my subconscious does this job for me. Usually I am left with limited speed (and very limited flight ceiling for that matter), although some flying techniques I've read about on this board helped me somewhat in this regard.



I've hit that same speed barrier while flying.  The problem is in order to have movement, you need to be moving in relation to something else.  Once you start going fast enough, everything just becomes one big blur and you lose all sense of motion.  

Luckily we're not limited to linear travel in dreaming. :wink2:   If you really want to get somewhere, just focus on it hard enough and it will pull you in.  You needn't worry about how to get there, only focus on the destination.

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## The Cusp

> OK, the part about schemes was clear, even though I don't see how that's relevant to LDs. But the AI part... it's like it's Chinesse.



I was trying to show the various types of links that are made in relation to things you focus your attention on in dreams.  For any object, person or concept, you attach to it a great many associations in order to define it.  

For whatever main elements you are fixated on in a dream, it's these associations that begin to appear in the dream.  This happens weather it's a normal dream or a lucid dream.

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## anomanderis

> Anyone have any thoughts on weather emotions are something that require your attention to exist, or whether they they are independent entities?



Judging something when emotions are in play is quite difficult. Every time that I fight I feel a sense of exhilaration and invincibility that is just beyond words to describe. I feel like i am ultimately powerful. At that moment there is no such thing as defeat. It does not exist. There is only my blazing heart.
I certainly feel like emotions need attention, but there is also something _other_, something that i really can't put my finger on yet (these things come to me pretty soon if i intend them to).
Maybe emotion is a different kind of focus? One that is more centered "within" the observer (the point of consciousness that I feel as the source of my senses), or in this case the _feeler_.

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## The White Rabbit

> you've had alot on your mind I'd advise people not to skim over this, I had to read that 3 times to grasp what your saying and you've opened the door on a few subjects. emotions- I never really thought that would have effects on your dream, I'll use that to my advantage. attention tech- one thing I've had trouble with is boobs, I like your bad teeth example because that ties in with my problem. when I go to fuck a girl I take off her shirt and her tits are terrible not just small but oddly shaped, the more I'd look at them the worse they would get. I've yet to solve this problem and I think you have the answer but how do I look at the good side with them?



Haha, no luck. I think that is rather odd actually.

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## anomanderis

i think the answer would be to have an expectation of good boobs before taking off the shirt. and not just, "i don't want them to be ugly" - negatives work the same as you saying "her boobs are ugly". imagine the most beautiful pair of boobs alive that would make even the dalai-lama cry.

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## anomanderis

Tonight i experimented how emotions affect the dreamscape. I was in a semi-lucid state while running through a corridor with a corner after every 5 meters or so. 
First I used fear: I became very fearful of what might lay ahead in the hallway. Sure enough, monsters started popping up (who i then dispensed with a "will projectile").
When i had enough of this and two very menacing beast-humans appeared, I changed my mood into happy. INSTANTANEOUSLY, the 2 beastmen turned into my best friends with smiles on their faces  ::D: 
After that I became fully lucid.

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## The Cusp

Good stuff Anomanderis, I'm glad to see you're getting the hang of it.

I had a normal dream the other night, in a grocery store where the customers were shopping peacefully.  Then I started beating up this illuminati guy, and they all started rioting and looting.  And that's when the werewolves showed up...

Strong emotions have a humongous impact on dreams.   That probably deserves it's own rule.

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## ChaybaChayba

> I would like some feedback on this.  I could go on and on, but if nobody cares, I'll keep it to myself.



One of the most interesting reads I had on lucid dreaming in a while, so don't hold back with your information, you really seem to know what you're talking about. Anyway, this will be very useful for me when dreaming, just what I was looking for

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## seeker28

Thank you Cusp!  This is all understandable (even if a takes a few readings), important, useable information.  I read this thread last night, decided to simply be mindful of how my attention and emotion affect the dream scape, and already I am seeing serious possibilites.

If you have any more ideas or more indepth explanation I'd love to hear it.

It is so nice to read something well thought out, thought provoking, and useful.  I'm subscribing to this thread.

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## The Cusp

Thanks for all the positive feedback, I really appreciate it.  It takes me so long to write out these posts (This measly post took almost 4 hours!).  *

Real World Applications
*
For the past month or so, I've been observing how these principles apply to the real world as much as they do to dreaming.  But it comes with an extra layer of complexity in the waking world, namely other people.    The potential each one of us has using these techniques is phenomenal, and when you consider there are billions of people influencing the world in this manner, the possibilities for conflict or resonance are mind boggling.  It would seem that the waking world is just one big shared dream!

So lets start off simple, with an example that happened to me today.  There was a dog chained up out back of the neighbour's place where I was working.  It seemed friendly and curious, so I let it come up to me and sniff me, no problems, it didn't seem a threat.  Then I noticed a sign in the window that said "Beware Guard dog".  The moment that sign registered in my mind and I though "Guard dog?  Oh oh..." it's demeanor completely changed.  It became mean, growled, and tried to bite me.   It's like that sign created a link or association to the dog's corresponding behavior.  I've been seeing dozens of examples of this daily.

Now to recap my three basic rules in a RL context.


*1. Everything in your dreams requires your attention to exist.
*
I've used this rule effectively in dreams in what I would call a "banishing".  Simply ignore something in dreams, put it completely out of your mind, and it will cease to exist.

This type of banishing works in RL too, but people don't cease to exist, they just wander off.  Completely ignoring someone is a little rude, but very effective.  I've also been using this to ward off unwanted conversation topics, and it works like a charm. :wink2: 

*2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.
*
Carl Jung, the Anti-Freud, had a method where he would write a letter to someone and then not send it.  This would invariably result in his target sending him a letter in response to what he had written, even though he never sent it.  He was also the one to coin the term "synchronicity", which I believe is a fantastic example of this rule in action.

I have countless examples of this principle in action, as with the incident with the dog I detailed above.  There are so many possibilities here, it's almost impossible to properly explain how it works.  

Thus far, I've broken this section down into two schools of practice.  

A) *Achieving specific goals*:  This is basically what the movie "The Secret" is about.  I can't really give specifics on how to do this, as each individual had their own set of associations created through a lifetime of experience.  Learning what the main influential associations are to you through dreaming will help you apply this to the real world.

B)*Eliminating negative thought patterns*:  This has been the main focus of my efforts lately.  Instead of dwelling on the negative aspects of my life, I do my best to ignore them.  According to the first rule, they disappear and cease to create bad situations in accordance with this second rule.   

The old saying "The straw that broke the camel's back" applies here.  By not dwelling on the things that get on your nerves, you don't get that build up of straw that weighs you down. 

Basically, this involves gaining control of your random thoughts that arise during the day, by either consciously directing them, or just putting a stop to the negative ones (which is _so_ hard to do!).   Most people arrogantly assume they are in complete control of their thought process, but this couldn't be farther from the truth.

*3. Strong emotions have a devastating effect on everything around you.*

I've decided to include emotion as a separate rule.  I'll come up with a better way to sum it up eventually, but that's pretty much the gist of it for now.

Just look at how you react in the presence of people exhibiting strong emotions, or how other people react to your own strong emotions.  Do most people really have a choice in how they react to these emotions?  It's like there are unwritten social rules on how we are supposed to react.  Even when you think you're masking or hiding your emotions, they still influence people's behavior.

One might think that people are responding to subtle body language, but that's not the case.  Now I'm a recovering rageaholic, and I've had a few instances where I was in a room alone and foul mood took ahold of me despite my best efforts.  The people in other rooms invariably begin to curse loudly, as if in response to my foul mood.  This is the kind of thing dream characters are prone to doing.
*
Overview
*I've had about 6-7 months or so of exploring this in my dreams, but have only been working on the real world applications for about a month.  The more I look into it, the more the real world behave like a dream.  And of course you know the first thing most people do once they realize they are dreaming is to have lucid *sex*.  

Well, I'm no different.  I'm realizing the world is my oyster, or at least a bearded clam. :wink2:   I've been using these principles to get women like you wouldn't believe.  The thing is, the type of women that are attracted into my life seem to be influenced by the porn that I watch (Not that I'm complaining!).  The real test will come tomrrow when I ask out the girl I'm totally in love with.  According to my theory, it should go well, since she's been constantly on my mind.  

Now the RL applilcations open up a lot of possibilities for control, but with all the people in the world, there are bound to be people with a will opposed to yours.  What happens when two people try to manifest opposing intents?  Even in a RL scenario, this brings us into the realm of shared dreaming, which is where I learned all about this.

You don't think I came up with this all by myself do you?  Nope, I discovered this after making a challenge in the "Night Stalkers, Dream Walker" thread here: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=37621
The very reason I think these were shared dream was the mastery these visitors had over attention.  A lot of those Night Stalker dreams never make it into my dream journal because they are so difficult to describe.  I've been loathe to mention it thus far, lest it undermine the points I'm trying to get across.  I do have much more to go into, I just need to find a way to broach the subject properly, plus I have _so_ much to experiment with, I just don't have enough time.

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## The Cusp

> Tonight i experimented how emotions affect the dreamscape. I was in a semi-lucid state while running through a corridor with a corner after every 5 meters or so. 
> After that I became fully lucid.



Actually, exploring this seems to induce semi lucid states.  I've had dozens of related dreams that I wouldn't exatly call lucid, but seem to be experimenting with these concepts.

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## anomanderis

I think I might've had the longest lucid to date this morning. But I also think I was mostly semi-lucid for a long while and then in the end became fully lucid. 
Here's what was new: when I became fully lucid, I felt a connection with the dreamscape that I had not felt (or noticed) before. 
As soon as i started consciously taking over control (trying to take flight, so i could get to the roof, because a dragon with whom i intended to do battle was fast approaching), I felt a weakening of that same connection. And for the first time ever, i failed at flying. I just couldn't do it. It felt _wrong. 
_I think this is an example of a how-to-become-and-be-lucid thread Billybob posted a while ago, where he said that taking conscious control of the dream (forcing control) only serves to separate yourself from the dream and thus shorten lucidity. 
Although I couldn't fly, i could still bounce, but when i started using my powers, i lost control over the dreamscape. It started slowly fading out. Then I woke up.


I hadn't really thought of physical "reality" as a shared dream, though I've used the Law of Attraction in my advantage for a while now. 
Thanks!
This is something that will help me be more aware in my waking state as well, which I have tried to do in the last few days. (Did you know that snakes will bite those with the mentality of only-a-dead-snake-is-a-good-snake with a much higher probability?)
I think i once broke a bus, because i was in the deepest fit of rage i have ever been in  :smiley: . Plus the fact that in winter it snowed every time i was with my ex-gf or i went into a trance.

(Good luck with the girl. I got my ex-gf with the help of LOA  :wink2:  )

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## seeker28

First of all, let me apologize for any spelling or grammar errors I may miss. I'm taking cold meds and am a bit out of it.

My goal of simply being obesesrvant of these rules in action during my dreams had interesting results.  This is a blow-by-blow rundown.  Feel free to scan through, it is kind of dull, but full of detail.

1. I was in a crowded room full of long benches in rows, similar to a church.  I wanted to sit by myself.  The first few benches I went to had people on them.  I became worried and afraid that I would not find an empty bench.  And my fear came true.  Further I worried that I may have to sit by someone I didn't like, which also came true.

2.  A guy is walking behind me with his arms wrapped around me, like he is my boyfriend.  I comment that he is stuck to me like glue.  Then he holds me even closer, even grasping my wrists.  When I become interested in something else and forget about him he dissapears.

3.  I and a group of recurring DCs are practicing to put on a musical.  I realize I don't know the songs or dances (normally I'd just "give" myself this knowledge in an LD, but as an observer, I don't) and worry that I will mess up.  And I do, horribly.

4.  We are now performing the musical for an audience.  I'm still worried about messing up and embarassing myself.  So of course I do.  I start to sing at the wrong moment.  The DC next to me tells me to shut up.  I feel guilty, everyone glares at me.  However, interestingly, the "director" or the musical seems more angry at the DC who told me to shut up than at me.

5.  I notice an offensive note on a bullitin board.  It pisses me off.  When I look around there more and more!

6.  I'm crawling through the mud trying to steal some water.  I notice how deep and sticky the mud is.  Immediatly I get stuck.  I'm trashing around getting angry, but also kind of having fun when this georgious black guy comes along and pulls me out.

Okay, I could give several more dull examples of these three rules in action, since I had 8 dreams last night, but I think that is PLENTY!

Tonight I'm going to try to use them.  Thanks, Cusp, you rock.  HARD.  ::bowdown::

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## anomanderis

Woul you be willing to say, the Cusp, that both the physical world and dream world abide by the same basic rules? 
Only that in the dream world we are godlike.
It has seemed, for me, to be this way after I realized I was using the same technique, the same focus for manipulating the dream world and the physical world (psychokinesis).

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## tommo

At first I found this very interesting and then had to skip through the last few posts.  Applying some of this to real life just DOESN'T WORK.

Some of you were saying, if everybody in the world doesn't focus on one thing then it doesn't exist.  That's complete stupidity.  Sorry, but this world is not a dream, it is not created by our minds.  When people talk about us creating our own world (people meaning scientists and philosophers and not crazy 'the secret' people) they are talking about what Cusp was saying in his initial posts; like how he focused on yellow and so later he started noticing everything else that was yellow.  You aren't actually MAKING more yellow, just SEEING more yellow.

The Secret talks about all this bs positive energy that influences every living thing.

With the dog getting angry, they are very good at sensing emotion, that's why they are such good companions, they are basically empathetic organisms.  The second you felt scared of the dog, you would have sub consciously taken a threatening pose or showed some signs of distress, which the dog would take as a threat or become scared.

This topic started out scientifically, if it's going to take a turn for the paranormal, let me know so I can back out now.

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## ChaybaChayba

Yes indeed good point. But I think like you say, this isn't bullshit, your MAKING bullshit, by only SEEING the bullshit.

Maybe you need to try and see this from another perspective. Everything you perceive is a dream based on the real world. This dream in your head can be manipulated the same way as you manipulate a dream. And these rules are very similar to alot of selfimprovement and meditation techniques. How far our dream of reality effects reality is another question. But the only way to manipulate reality is through manipulation of the dream of the mind. This dream you see all the time is only an interpretation of reality of your mind. Our physical bodies are what control this world. If yu want to control this world, you need to control the dream that controls your physical body first. This dream is our only connection to reality.

Every single piece of information that is not yet discovered is seen as "paranormal" because it doesn't belong to the normal. This doesn't mean it is false or magic or hocuspocus or anything. The only criteria I use to believe in this, is that it works for me irl too

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## The Cusp

> Woul you be willing to say, the Cusp, that both the physical world and dream world abide by the same basic rules? 
> Only that in the dream world we are godlike.



I'd say we are just as godlike in the real world as in dreams.  The only difference is that in dreams, there is nobody else to interfere with your will.  In RL, there are billions of other godlike people as well.  So if you wanted to fly, there are billions of other people who say "No, you can't do that.", thus making it impossible for you to do so.  You're just outnumbered.

Tommo, all I can say is you have to learn to see this happening in dreams before you can see in in RL.

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## anomanderis

> I'd say we are just as godlike in the real world as in dreams.  The only difference is that in dreams, there is nobody else to interfere with your will.  In RL, there are billions of other godlike people as well.  So if you wanted to fly, there are billions of other people who say "No, you can't do that.", thus making it impossible for you to do so.  You're just outnumbered.



I also thought about that, but I think its a bit far fetched to believe that if there were no other humans (assuming we are the only intelligent race in the universe, which is far fetched in itself) we'd be able to manipulate physical reality as we wished.
Although, certainly, the mental conditioning of you-can't-do that we have been fracked with since birth, is a bit of a bother....

I don't argue with all facets of the godlike aspect, just the power issue. A bit more work is required than just falling asleep and becoming lucid...

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## The Cusp

> I also thought about that, but I think its a bit far fetched to believe that if there were no other humans (assuming we are the only intelligent race in the universe, which is far fetched in itself) we'd be able to manipulate physical reality as we wished.
> Although, certainly, the mental conditioning of you-can't-do that we have been fracked with since birth, is a bit of a bother....
> 
> I don't argue with all facets of the godlike aspect, just the power issue. A bit more work is required than just falling asleep and becoming lucid...



Mankind has always manipulated physical reality as we've pleased.  It needn't be through mental super powers, but can come about from science and technology.  Any technologically advance people would seem like gods to primitive people.

The development of science could be said to follow these rules as well.  Paying attention to a problem or question until you begin to uncover related detail.

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## tommo

> Everything you perceive is a dream based on the real world. This dream in your head can be manipulated the same way as you manipulate a dream.



I agree with this, if I understand correctly, that our 'reality' IRL is based on our perception of _reality_.  Correct?





> Every single piece of information that is not yet discovered is seen as "paranormal" because it doesn't belong to the normal.



If it isn't discovered how can it be labeled?
I think you mean everything that isn't explained is seen as paranormal.





> I also thought about that, but I think its a bit far fetched to believe that if there were no other humans (assuming we are the only intelligent race in the universe, which is far fetched in itself) we'd be able to manipulate physical reality as we wished.
> Although, certainly, the mental conditioning of you-can't-do that we have been fracked with since birth, is a bit of a bother....



Exactly.  Of course the mental conditioning such as parents saying "You're never going to be a famous rapper!" or something, for most people, is going to make them believe they will never be able to do so.

People saying "You can't fly" isn't going to make a god damned difference, because you can't fly anyway!  Except in dreams of course.
Gravity prevents us from flying, you can't change gravity with the will of your mind.
Think about it, why would every person in the world believe they cannot fly without machinery in the first place?  Because they have tried and it failed.  Monkeys saw a bird and thought, I'll try that, those monkeys died.  Even though they had no pre-conditioning to the fact that they can't fly.

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## anomanderis

I think what the Cusp meant with reality as a shared dream was that you don't need to be conditioned for you to fail at flying. When there are a bunch of others, who "create" the universe, then even though you might not be conditioned, you will still be held back by their disbelief.


Seems like my work has started to bring fruit - this morning i managed to have ~4 lucids in 30 minutes or so. I first gained lucidity in school, where there was a Night Event, meaning that only those who are students and were lucid could come there. 
In the fourth (I think, my memory is a bit sporadic) and last lucid, I was supposed to fight 5 parents of students, starting with the weakest.
The first one I scared off with willpower alone, but lost to the second.
The objective was to get past him. Our hands were locked and I was trying to phase through him (since i only needed to get past him), but I couldn't do it. I was focusing on his body (which was a weird biostone) and imagined feeling myself passing through, but still..nothing happened.
What the heck, I thought and tried another tactic. I grabbed hold and threw him over me (nelson?) onto the ground, where he managed to keep me pinned and then started chewing on my hand. So I surrendered.

There were 2 things that bothered me about this:
1) Why couldn't I phase through him? Was it because I was focusing too much on his body, thus making it more "solid"? 
I though about this after waking up and I think i did focus too much on the body. When I phase through walls, i never focus on the walls themselves, but beyond them.
2) I surrendered way too easily. Had I been semi-lucid, there could have been no way i would have done it. All or nothing, never surrender. 
Yet while I was fully lucid, it was different... 
Or maybe just because I couldn't get through him, i maybe unconsciously thought that i couldn't beat him.

And btw: my voice is very weird inside dreams!  ::D:  Much weirder than listening to a recording of it.

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## Jonathan

Thank you Cusp, I thoroughly enjoyed your post(s) and hope you continue posting especially using examples in real life. 

Also, that Carl Jung "letters" is very interesting, can you provide a link or tell me more about it?

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## ChaybaChayba

> I agree with this, if I understand correctly, that our 'reality' IRL is based on our perception of _reality_.  Correct?



Yup, thats how I see it. Just like a computer can translate binary information into a 3D game, so does our brain translate reality information into a dreamworld. 




> If it isn't discovered how can it be labeled?
> I think you mean everything that isn't explained is seen as paranormal.



Yes indeed thats what I meant :p

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## The Cusp

> 1) Why couldn't I phase through him? Was it because I was focusing too much on his body, thus making it more "solid"? 
> I though about this after waking up and I think i did focus too much on the body. When I phase through walls, i never focus on the walls themselves, but beyond them.



Perhaps you were focused too much on your opponents and not enough on your goal of getting to the other side?  Like they say, "Keep your eye on the prize".






> Also, that Carl Jung "letters" is very interesting, can you provide a link or tell me more about it?



Actually, I can't find a link to that at the moment.  Letter writing being the main form of communication at the time, a search for "Jung" and "Letters" brings up a ton of other letters, mostly between him and Freud.

Trying to find it, I kept coming across terms like "causal" and "acausal", which would seem to fit, but I'll need to research it more in depth, which will take some time.

Here's another example from Jung in the meantime:

"_A young woman I was treating had, at a critical moment, a dream in which she was given a golden scarab. While she was telling me this dream I sat with my back to the closed window. Suddenly I heard a noise behind me, like a gentle tapping. I turned round and saw a flying insect knocking against the window-pane from outside. I opened the window and caught the creature in the air as it flew in. It was the nearest analogy to a golden scarab that one finds in our latitudes, a scarabaeid beetle, the common rose-chafer (Cetonia aurata), which contrary to its usual habits had evidently felt an urge to get into a dark room at this particular moment._" [The Collected Works of Carl Jung, Volume 8, page 843]

ANother incident where he was walking in the woods with a woman who was telling him a dream she had about a fox.  Just then a fox appeared on the path ahead of them and walked ahead of them for a few minutes.

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## anomanderis

Looks like my training is really paying out. 2 records in 3 days. First the lucid dreams per night record (4), now the duration. I never could hold lucidity for more than a minute, but today i managed to do it for at least 3 -4 minutes.
If i implemented all that i had read from guides: engaging the senses, not moving too fast, i could easily hold lucidity. I found that when i made sharp or sudden turns with my "head", the world started blurring. By using slow movements and always keeping my "eyes" focused on the dreamscape, I was able to keep myself in it.

Yet still, in another lucid i had this morning, I fought my homeroom teacher, but couldn't punch through him like I wanted to. Guess i'm still a noob at dream control...
First comes attaining, then retaining and after that i can put your advice into action, the Cusp :tongue2:

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## The Cusp

*Synchronicity*

I've spent the last two day reading up on Jung and synchronicity, and I have to relate what happened at work today.  I hear my partner yelling and making a big commotion, so I go to see what's going on and find him holding a threaded bolt he found in a closet.  He fixes up old lawn tractors, and it just so happens he needed a particular kind of bolt to fix one up the day before, so he had to make a special trip to the store just for that specific bolt.  Then today as he's sweeping out a closet in an empty apartment, he finds that exact bolt.

He went on about what a coincidence it was for about half an hour, but he _is_ prone to rambling.  He insisted over and over he was telling the truth and that he wasn't making it up, and took the bolt home because he said his brother would never believe him.  It was such an odd size he no longer had any use for it.

It was synchronistic for him because of the bolt, but also for me because I've spent the last two days reading up on synchronicity in preparation to write this.  To have someone discover and be blown away by synchronicity before my very eyes was pretty freaky to say the least.


*Jung's Views on Synchronicity
*Jung explained synch as two or more seemingly unrelated events that create a meaningful coincidence, that do no follow any apparent cause and effect connection.  He called this the  "acausal connecting        principle".

Modern psychology regards this as appophenia, the tendency of the mind to find or create meaning where there is none.

Jung held the belief that these coincidences held some kind of meaning or messages that could be interpreted through associated archetypes.  The problem is which archetype to choose, which is often seen as the random whims of the analyst of patient.


*Rule Number 2
*Jung certainly identified synchronicity and even learned to use it somewhat, but he never truly understood how it worked.  

I say synchronistic events but not acausal, but are related by a very distinct cause and effect relationship.  But cause and effect implies a rule, doesn't it?

_2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.

_This describes what happens with synchronicity perfectly.  

Rampant synchronicity in dreams is the rule rather than the exception.  Going through your DJ will yield glaring examples.   But other than the influence of emotions, this is the totality of creation in dreaming.  Beside the obvious examples, there are also many more subtle layers at work that become clearer once you are used to seeing them.  



I'm going to steer this topic back into dreaming in my next posts.  I suppose I'm going to have to get into the secret origins story of where I came up with all this.  :wink2:

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## tommo

This synchronism thing is, I believe, (I'll use your example and one of mine for the sake of the argument), either pure coincidence or as in your co-worker's case the fact that he had been focusing on that particular bolt made him recognise it.

Badly explained I think, I'll use my example which is almost identical.  I had been looking for those fluorescent light bulbs that cover a large frequency of light waves.  I had been to supermarkets and they just had a brand with terrible write ups so I went to Bunnings and eventually found the one I was looking for, well close enough.  Anyway the point is the next day I came home from TAFE and my eyes suddenly caught this packet of two light globes the same as the one I was looking for.  This box had been sitting there for probably weeks (my mum leaves stuff everywhere for ages) but I had never noticed that it was full of light globes, (some which were the ones I was looking for), until I had already bought one myself and also been thinking about it for a few days.

So I believe it is the fact that your are focusing on this object or whatever it happens to be and therefore you notice it.  I mean, say you wanted an orange REALLY badly and you were walking down your street to the supermarket you would probably notice that someone on your street has an orange tree in their front yard, whereas you never noticed it before that because you weren't thinking about oranges.

Anyway, yes, back to dreaming.  I had two lucids over three days also, like anomanderis, (coincidence or synchronicity?  :tongue2:  ::lol::  jk).
So yeh in the first one I could not remember at all what I wanted to achieve.  The second time I remembered, FOCUS ON SOMETHING, so I have done this before on a leaf just to see how realistic I could get my world to be, a couple of days ago on a mushroom in a non-lucid dream I remember flipping it over to look underneath and as I looked at how large it was (it was massive) all these bugs started appearing all over it.  But anyway, gosh I keep getting side-tracked lol, in this second lucid I remembered what I wanted to do so I stared at something I can't remember and then I remembered a friend IRL had told me about his friend on a mushroom trip had looked at his hand and like went in to it and started flowing down the river of cracks in his hands.  So I just tried lying on my bed and staring at my hand, trying to see all the detail.  I looked at this one bit on my hand, a piece of loose skin and I focused on that even more closely than my hand and I think this correlates to things I was reading about DMT, but everything went white, I think but I wasn't really focusing on that, I was focusing on my body, which was like just made out of colours in lines and they were moving around like those lights outside stores, except they actually moved, not just blink on and off like the lights.

So anyway, while this was absolutely AMAZING, I wanted to know if any of you could give any ideas as to why this happened.  I know many scientists studying dreams and DMT think dreams are caused by DMT being released by the pineal gland.  And since this was so similar to DMT trips I was thinking that by trying to increase the detail in your dreams you are making your pineal gland produce more DMT.
Either that or this effect was just caused by me reading up and looking at videos about DMT IRL, but that _was_ almost a week before I had this dream.  So I'm not sure.  Any ideas?

Because as I said this was amazing but I seem to have not a lot of control over my dreams.  In one of those two LD's I had tried to change the scenery by turning around, thinking about it then turning back around, closing my eyes etc. nothing worked  ::embarrassed:: .  The best control I've had in an LD was when I managed to open up a brick wall, like I sort of created a window and then jumped through into my auntie's garden.

But my powers seem to be more magical.  For instance, rather than thinking, 'ok since I want to go through this wall I must imagine things that will be on the other side' etc. etc.  I kind of just move my hands in a square shape and then pull the middle and it is a window.  I don't know if this makes any difference but it seems to effect my control in some circumstances.  Do you think there are two different types of control? One just more subconscious, like put your hand out and shoot a fireball without even thinking about it, and another more thinking about how to overcome an obstacle and everything that goes into it, like 'how could I shoot a fireball?' 'Imagine a flame in my hands, what does a flame look like, ok the flame won't harm my hand but only my enemies' etc. etc.

Thank for reading,
Tommo

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## anomanderis

> .  Do you think there are two different types of control? One just more subconscious, like put your hand out and shoot a fireball without even thinking about it, and another more thinking about how to overcome an obstacle and everything that goes into it, like 'how could I shoot a fireball?' 'Imagine a flame in my hands, what does a flame look like, ok the flame won't harm my hand but only my enemies' etc. etc.



I've noticed something alike. When I am semi-lucid (I know I am dreaming, but haven't really realized it), I am much more powerful in a fight. While being fully lucid, i think my conscious mind (for the moment, at least) doesn't really _believe_ (or maybe my focus is off. Now that I think about it, my semi-lucid and fully-lucid, my focus has been different...) I can do these things. My subC has no problems with phasing through enemy attacks...

I would agree with your version of synchronicity as well, but I believe there is also another version: one that actually attracts objects into your reality when you think about them long enough in the right way and so on...

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## [Alpha]-0mega-

I've had quite an amount of dreams that, whilst I did not think of object X, and object X was not in my sight, still kept Object X in his original location with the original details.

An example is the wooden shack on the Island of The Watcher, I started my dream there, and ended my dream in combat with demons, yet the shack was still there even though I went to a huge castle tower and didn't think of the shack anymore.

Either subconsciously I thought about it, or there's another factor in play.

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## tommo

Well, how did you know it was there unless you were thinking about it?

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## Fenghuang

Well, this just points out the fact that there is another part of the brain at work, not the conscious or the subconscious but memory which is holding the image of the shack in the back of your mind, making the subconscious just assume that the object is still there as you know it to be, even if you arent consciously looking at it. Even if you did look back and it had lost detail you wouldn't realize as you would just be looking at as much of the object as you remembered being there. It is a matter of whether your mind considers the object in question to be of enough importance to keep and if not that is when the object would cease to exist.

This is where you must ask yourself how much concentration you should put into a single object, I find that it is better to just consciously assume any objects are there as a matter of fact and the world will keep it's clarity that way you make the world exist to your active mind and the only detail or objects that are lost are the ones you don't remember i.e. the unimportant ones. The only danger of the previous statement is that lucidity has a danger of being lost somewhat and you have to know your balance as a dreamer between accepting your environment and realizing its not real and you have power over it.

Well, this just points out the fact that there is another part of the brain at work, not the conscious or the subconscious but memory which is holding the image of the shack in the back of your mind, making the subconscious just assume that the object is still there as you know it to be, even if you arent consciously looking at it. Even if you did look back and it had lost detail you wouldn't realize as you would just be looking at as much of the object as you remembered being there. It is a matter of whether your mind considers the object in question to be of enough importance to keep and if not that is when the object would cease to exist. This is where you must ask yourself how much concentration you should put into a single object, I find that it is better to just consciously assume any objects are there as a matter of fact and the world will keep it's clarity that way you make the world exist to your active mind and the only detail or objects that are lost are the ones you don't remember i.e. the unimportant ones. The only danger of the previous statement is that lucidity has a danger of being lost somewhat and you have to know your balance as a dreamer between accepting your environment and realizing its not real and you have power over it.



Also tommo, to your previous post I think there are more than one type of control and the 1st is a lot harder which is the type by which you systematically create something through active imagination so as you said you think "A flame on the palm of my hand, it's blue, spinning and now it will fly up of my hand and crash down on my enemy over there!" the problem with this is that each step is distracting your mind away from the world and if your memory slips whilst your doing it you will have forgotten the reason why the enemy was an enemy in the 1st place or that he even was there, stealing (I feel), from the overall flow and clarity of the dreams adventure. 

The second kind would be 'faith manipulation' which would be where you want to throw flame and you hope that a flame will come out of your hand as you make a throwing gesture and hit the enemy defeating them, the problem of this is that it is very dependent on 3 things one confidence (do you believe it will work), emotion (how desperate are you to defend yourself because of fear) and imagination (can your mind picture what is meant to happen), unless all three are working you will either, not throw anything, the flame will fizzle out or it won't do anything to the enemy. 

The third way I find is the most reliable which is 'assumptive manipulation' for this you need to know what throwing the fireball and contact with the enemy looks like this can be linked with a motion or a verbal command, perhaps both and also a place of acceptance that this is something you can do, with as concentration on 'how?' as possible, which would lead to doubt or distraction. You can achieve this in early stages by copying something you have seen on a film or computer game so that it is familiar and you have seen it working but for more advanced manipulation only the 1st to techniques ('faith and luck' or 'creating something systematically') coupled with experience can create a stable manipulation you can use with confidence. there are probably more but  i would say these are your bread and butter manipulations.
Two personal examples would be that, when I would cast fire in dreams I originally made a sphere motion with my hands to build the spell then projected it away from my like in 'wizards of the coast' games, this is something I knew would simply work because I had seen it done, on the other hand I had real trouble mastering flying in the early days and it took time and imagination in the form of me lifting one leg at a time off the ground tucking them under me then floating around in a mid-air ::meditate::  kneel before I learnt to master it then came learning to move through the air faster which was another issue because you don't automatically realize that you can move as fast as you want, "it's your world!"

Anyways I waffled on way to much there, I don't normally type my thoughts out because they are all muddled up when I try to express them but I hope that was helpful. :;-):

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## Fenghuang

Could u explain the relationship between synchronicity and dreaming in more detail because i don't understand yet.

I will post 2moro on what i think of emotion on dreams and the realworld/dreamworld links and differences.

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## anomanderis

Guess I need much more practice then, Fenghuang. Today I tried to fight like the Fullmetal Alchemist, but apart from the first time, nothing really happened... except for me looking stupid clapping my hands repeatedly in the middle of combat ::D:

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## Fenghuang

That is a cool thing to attemt and i may have a go tonight after i have had ago at the task again which i failed because of recall  :tongue2: , but when you used the alchemy techniques did you have it sound in your mind, that you were going to clap your hands, place them on the ground, a Transmutation circle would appear and did you know what you were trying to achieve what the outcome of the spell would be? because chucking a few exploding filreballs is pretty brainless but turning a brick floor into a golem or getting it to crack under someone takes a lot more imagination  ::dreaming:: (which is yet another element to dreaming) that i believe is something that grows with time and use like any other skill and is more active on a basic level with youth.

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## anomanderis

I put my hands together, knowing in my mind that this will create a transmutation circle. I can't remember what the first thing was that I succeeded at, but I recall very clearly where I failed: a couple of demons were going to come in from a door, so I clapped my hands, put them against the wall and tried to make the wall to "grow" into the doorway, thus blocking it. Tried this 2 or 3 times.
That didn't happen, but maybe because I was focusing so much on the demons not getting through, that they actually couldn't. Seemed like they were stuck.
Not what I intended to happen...

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## tommo

Fenghuang - I realise the different types of manipulation, but to be blunt there is not really any point in knowing them if you don't know how they work.

Just to wrap this up a bit, and basically some thoughts to develop on.

If you used what you call *assumptive manipulation* then you would probably be picturing a movie or game or something else you have witnessed IRL or maybe in a dream and basically just copying it.

If you use what you call *faith manipulation* you would be just assuming that holding your hand out is going to create a fireball in it because you want a fireball to appear.

So these two can pretty much be lumped together.

And since you didn't give the other type of manipulation a name I will call it *conscious manipulation.*  If you were using this you would be trying to figure out ways in which to make things happen, like closing your eyes, thinking about a scenery and opening your eyes again in the hope you will have this seen in front of you.  This differs from faith manipulation because you are more trying to make something happen rather than just expecting it to happen because it is a dream and you can do anything.

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## The Cusp

I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions.  I was expecting a lot hate from this thread, but instead it's producing some interesting discussion. :smiley: 





> This synchronism thing is, I believe, (I'll use your example and one of mine for the sake of the argument), either pure coincidence or as in your co-worker's case the fact that he had been focusing on that particular bolt made him recognise it.



It wasn't that he recognized the bolt, it's the fact that it was there at all. He found it in a completely empty apartment, where the bolt was the only thing on the floor.  Plus it was such an odd size, with a very fine thread, that the odds of it having been there were astronomical.





> Do you think there are two different types of control? One just more subconscious, like put your hand out and shoot a fireball without even thinking about it, and another more thinking about how to overcome an obstacle and everything that goes into it, like 'how could I shoot a fireball?' 'Imagine a flame in my hands, what does a flame look like, ok the flame won't harm my hand but only my enemies' etc. etc.



Yeah, but that second kind of control where you think about it is totally unreliable.





> I've noticed something alike. When I am semi-lucid (I know I am dreaming, but haven't really realized it), I am much more powerful in a fight. While being fully lucid, i think my conscious mind (for the moment, at least) doesn't really _believe_ (or maybe my focus is off. Now that I think about it, my semi-lucid and fully-lucid, my focus has been different...) I can do these things. My subC has no problems with phasing through enemy attacks...



Now that you mention it, I do much better in battles when I'm semi lucid as well.  Strange, I would have thought it would be the other way around.





> Well, this just points out the fact that there is another part of the brain at work, not the conscious or the subconscious but memory which is holding the image of the shack in the back of your mind, making the subconscious just assume that the object is still there as you know it to be, even if you aren’t consciously looking at it. Even if you did look back and it had lost detail you wouldn't realize as you would just be looking at as much of the object as you remembered being there. It is a matter of whether your mind considers the object in question to be of enough importance to keep and if not that is when the object would cease to exist.



That's an interesting point, which may even explain how we are able to remember our dreams.  To use a computer analogy, lets look at data recovery.  When you delete something from your hard drive, it doesn't actually erase all the ones and zeroes, but changes the pointer pointing to that particular block of memory from "used" to "unused".  The data is still there until it gets overwritten by something new.  I suspect something similar occurs when trying to remember a dream. 

Some question that come to mind are "how much can this type of memory hold?"  and "How far back in time does it go?"





> Could u explain the relationship between *synchronicity* and *dreaming* in more detail because i don't understand yet.



Synchronicity is a product of the second rule, where you focus your attention creates related detail.  Simply put, it's one of the predominant aspects that shapes your dreams.  

The most noticeable ones are when the association between two events or objects are clear and relatively close together in time (ie focusing on your tooth defects in a dream will yield more of those defects).  But you have to understand there are also synchronicities at work that are not as clear.  These may be from things lingering in your mind from days, weeks, months or even years ago.  





> Fenghuang *assumptive manipulation* - *faith manipulation* - *conscious manipulation.*



I like that classification of manipulations.  I would say the first two are more reliable.  Conscious manipulation, for me at least, unfolds more like a scientific experiment, in that it allows room for failure.

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## juroara

I can definitely see how emotions play a part in my dream, but attention? me and attention have problems!  ::banana:: 

lots of times in lucid dreams I like to transform. I try out different transformation methods. mirror, no mirror, magic spell, yatta yatta.

the one that has the most trouble is, attention to detail! in this case, I try to induce an image over my own body. like, I imagine claws where there should be nails. scales where there should be peachy skin and so on.

half the time it doesn't work. the other half of the time it instantly fades away. but focusing on the imagery takes all my effort. its like focusing as you walk, just not natural. I mean the more you focus on your walking the weirder it gets

what has worked better for me is a more emotional aspect. if I want to transform into a dragon, I imagine what a dragons thoughts must be like. strong, powerful, fearless, wild. this seems to work better, and I am able to hold the form much longer without giving it too much attention at all

I notice that I have a problem with a lot of visual attention regarding lucid control. for another example. If I want to have fire power, I have trouble seeing the fire. I can try and try and try and try to see the fire, and maybe something flickers and POOF gone. Holding onto the visual image of fire, is exhausting and frustrating!

but if I wanted to FEEL the fire. no problem. the sensation of feeling the fire is so easy to produce, I have to avoid because it damn hurts and BURNS. and many times, Ive had to imagine feeling this burning sensation in my hands, before I could create fire in my dream.

 ::bowdown::  im just visually retarded I guess, I am butt blind

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## anomanderis

> Synchronicity is a product of the second rule, where you focus your attention creates related detail.  Simply put, it's one of the predominant aspects that shapes your dreams.  
> 
> The most noticeable ones are when the association between two events or objects are clear relatively close together in time (ie focusing on your tooth defects in a dream will yield more of those defects).  But you have to understand there are also synchronicities at work that are not as clear.  These may be from things lingering in your mind from days, weeks, months or even years ago.



I'd say _everything_ is synchronicity, just that we only consciously notice the things that are most blatant and obvious.

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## tommo

> the one that has the most trouble is, attention to detail! in this case, I try to induce an image over my own body. like, I imagine claws where there should be nails. scales where there should be peachy skin and so on.
> 
> half the time it doesn't work. the other half of the time it instantly fades away. but focusing on the imagery takes all my effort. its like focusing as you walk, just not natural. I mean the more you focus on your walking the weirder it gets




So this would be conscious manipulation, basically just not using that is a good idea I think.  However, being able to master conscious control could be handy when you are in need of something you can't get in other ways.  (worst explanation ever, but for some reason I just can't think right now)

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## tommo

I had an LD last night.  I guess you could say I was semi-lucid.  I definitely knew it was a dream but I _kind of_ let the dream take its own course.  Once I realised I was dreaming I tried to fly to escape my friend.  FIRST TIME EVER TO SUCCESSFULLY FLY!!!!  I've flown before but not had much control over it.  This time I was hovering over my friend, moving around looking down laughing as he tried to grab me back down like I wasn't allowed to do that or he didn't want me to.

The other times I've tried to fly I have been completely lucid so I guess just wanted to show another example of how semi-lucidity can be an advantage in that you are using faith/unconscious manipulation rather than conscious manipulation.  Although there is a major drawback, being that complete lucidity is absolutely AWESOME!!!!
Another thing I've realised is that a major difference between semi and full lucidity is that in semi you are aware you are dreaming but you don't really grasp the concept that this whole world is created by your mind, in full lucidity you know exactly what is happening and are consciously controlling and keeping track of everything.  At least that's how it is for me I think.

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## anomanderis

> Another thing I've realised is that a major difference between semi and full lucidity is that in semi you are aware you are dreaming but you don't really grasp the concept that this whole world is created by your mind, in full lucidity you know exactly what is happening and are consciously controlling and keeping track of everything.  At least that's how it is for me I think.



That's a good way of putting it (y)

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## Fenghuang

2nd the above ::mrgreen::  that's exactly what i find. plus you are alot less likely to wake yourself up in semi right?

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## The Enterer

Honestly I hate that!  :Sad: 

The "going through the motions" lucid dream.

Maybe we're not talking about the same thing?

Anyway, mad props to the OP!





> ...Anyone have any thoughts on weather emotions are something that require your attention to exist, or whether they they are independent entities?....



Well since you've already evoked Jung, I believe his position was that all psychic activity was the product of the same psychic energy only manifesting itself differently. So no, emotions wouldn't require attention because it is all simply psychic energy.

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## Croneus

Nothing can exist unless someone or something believes enough that it does. Maybe that thing is God and we are all dream characters for he/she/it. So in your dreams if you believe that something is there, it is, and the more you concentrate on this thing it does. Like the great philosopher Philip K. Dick said; "The trick is to combine your waking rational abilities with the infinite possibilities of your dreams. Because, if you can do that, you can do anything."

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## The Cusp

That's quite the inconsistency we have here, in that semi-lucids seem to offer better control than full lucids.  Since it's awareness of being in a dream that lends you control, it would be reasonable to assume that the better the awareness, the better the control.  That just doesn't seem to be the case.

My only explanation is that we (myself included) are scatter brained victims of the digital age.   Technology has conditioned us to the point where we can barely focus on anything for any length of time.  

That and our modern culture has no place for the ancient traditions of meditation and disciplines of the mind.  The majority of religions have time tested methods and techniques to school and train the mind.

To counteract this seeming lack of control, I would advise some form of meditation of mental training.  I'd recommend reading Carlos Castaneda's books, as they deal predominantly with attention.  But any type of meditative practice would be sure to help.

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## anomanderis

> That's quite the inconsistency we have here, in that semi-lucids seem to offer better control than full lucids.  Since it's awareness of being in a dream that lends you control, it would be reasonable to assume that the better the awareness, the better the control.  That just doesn't seem to be the case.



I wouldn't say that its a consistency, only psychology (though I do agree about the attention span. I believe the average attention span was about 6-10 seconds). And I wouldn't say that control is _merely_ a matter of awareness. I think the reason why I am more powerful in a semi-lucid state is that I don't have to think about things, I just _do_ them. No doubt, no fear.

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## ChaybaChayba

> Nothing can exist unless someone or something believes enough that it does. Maybe that thing is God and we are all dream characters for he/she/it. So in your dreams if you believe that something is there, it is, and the more you concentrate on this thing it does. Like the great philosopher Philip K. Dick said; *"The trick is to combine your waking rational abilities with the infinite possibilities of your dreams. Because, if you can do that, you can do anything."*



Never heard that quote, I like it alot, and I think this quote is so true!

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## Fenghuang

> Guess I need much more practice then, Fenghuang. Today I tried to fight like the Fullmetal Alchemist, but apart from the first time, nothing really happened... except for me looking stupid clapping my hands repeatedly in the middle of combat



I managed to perform one as well in the form of looting a vending machine. Funnily enough it also put me into a very vivid Lucid in which I completed this months basic task, so  ::thanks::  for the help.

On topic though in the same dream, I was given a sense of fear which was a result of disturbing images that my mind threw at me. I knew I was dreaming but the fear was irrational and essentially real to me, though I knew it wasn't going to harm me the simple fact that it made me feel uneasy made me want to get away from it, as I know from years of lucid dreaming that if you let fear get ahead of you it can be terrifying (i.e. if you feel theres something ominous behind you don't look and it won't have the same manifest power over you as looking and seeing the object of your fear, though the fear may not disappear entirely). I could have woken myself up but because I wanted to get over the fear inside of the dream I found an alternative way of dealing with it, this was to go to a place that I knew well with good memories tied to it and then put my safety into someone elses hands (in this case mini turrets and fighter jets), in this environment that I consciously(turrets) and sub-consciously(The place) created, I faced the fear and Gained enough bravery to face it barehanded, even at my disadvantage. It is hard to explain but basically in dreams I fear, fear itself and My mind has grown to not get carried away with things that scare me and Im secure in my own power.

So the fear was started by my sub-conscious but then held onto by the conscious, this was then temporarily avoided by not dwelling on it using the *Attention Technique* and then defeated with another emotion bravery/peace/confidence. This leads me to believe that Emotion is, *somewhat*, a separate entity, as I find it is not something that you can directly control, but it can be manipulated by concentrating on things that lead to an apposing emotion.

That, may have been a pointless post but hopefully it will spark a bit more convo on the subject, it is odviously one example and i would be VERY interested in hearing examples of someone dealing with emotion differently (either way you cant blame me for the coherency of the post as I did fail my English GCSEs ::movingmrgreen:: ).

P.s. ChaybaChayba "Luffy Rocks!!!"

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## The Cusp

> So the fear was started by my sub-conscious but then held onto by the conscious, this was then temporarily avoided by not dwelling on it using the *Attention Technique* and then defeated with another emotion bravery/peace/confidence. This leads me to believe that Emotion is, *somewhat*, a separate entity, as I find it is not something that you can directly control, but it can be manipulated by concentrating on things that lead to an apposing emotion.



I'm impressed, that was some good use of the attention technique and the emotional technique.  

I still think emotions can be controlled, it's just not something most people are used to doing.  Either you control your emotions, or they control you.  The tricky part about controlling emotions, especially in dreams, is that it's kind of a chicken and the egg scenario.   On the one hand, you have whatever dream element is causing the emotion, but on the other hand, those dream elements are reacting in response to your emotions.  It can be very difficult to separate one from the other. 

Here's a lucid where I first discovered and experimented with the effect of emotions in dreams.


Fri Sept 22, 2006 
*A Study in Emotion*
*Clarity*: 10/10
*Importance*: 10/10
I'm working, at a customer's house. I'm getting very *frustrated*, and my *mood* is growing more *foul* by the minute. These *negative emotions* keep building, and *building*, untill I can't take it anymore and I/they *snap*.

My *bad mood explodes* out of me like the *shock wave* from a nuke. I can see it physically washing over every thing as is moves out exponentially in every direction. As my *wave* *of anger* passes objects and walls, it *changes* them. Colors become *harsher* and angry, lines and angles become *sharper*, and everything now has a *crueler, meaner* look to it.

No longer angry, I am now *amazed* at how much my emotions affect the world around me. A little *humbled* and a lot *calmer*, I reset the entire scene back to the way it was before.

Now, I start running through the whole *range* of emotions, basking in them and seeing how they *affect* and *change* the world around me. At some point I notice it's not just the physical objects, but the people and characters as well. Focusing single mindedly on whatever emotion would completely change the *behavior* of the people and animals (some pets).

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## anomanderis

Glad to be of help, Fenghuang  :wink2: 
Speaking about overcoming fear, the most blatant and the coolest dream i've had in that regard was one where i was in some kind of mall. I wanted to get out so when i saw the green exit sign i headed that way. Through a door i came upon a corridor with bright light at the end. 
I started walking towards it. Then suddenly a door I had not noticed before to my side caught my attention. I opened it and saw a spiral staircase heading into the uknown darkness. After a few steps I could feel fear starting to spread within me. It was not a specific fear of something, just abstract fear. I turned around and ran away. 
"What the bloody hell are you doing?" I screamed to myself in my head. (That was the period in my life where I was conquering all the fears i had). I decided to go back to the staircase. Going down I could sense the fear growing with each step i took. Bigger and bigger...until it broke and I was in total darkness, feeling pretty good about myself :smiley: 

On another note: when my lucidity became such that I didn't need to employ RC's to know whether i was in a dream I just _knew_ whether i was dreaming or not. I could _feel_ it. Yet now my dreams have become so vivid that 2 times already I haven't managed to just know whether I am dreaming when i start questioning it. This morning I jumped off a cliff to find out for sure. Which, when i started thinking about it, was pretty dumb, since i could've just bitten my lip (the rc i used in the beginning) and then gone to stabilizing the lucidity, instead of losing it by flying.
Though it is quite the experience itself, not being _entirely_ sure that you are dreaming and jumpin off a cliff :tongue2:

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## anomanderis

What's up with false awakenings anyway? Why do they occur only in conjunction with (semi-)lucidity (like right after a lucid dream = the most stupid times i've lost my lucidity)? 
And why, in my FA's, am I always in my old bed that I stopped using more than 6 months ago? Its quite interesting actually... Before I would be lying with my head due north and away from the door, now my head is pointed due south and towards the door, yet both in FA's and hypnopompia, I _always_ sense that my head is due north, farther from the door.

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## tommo

I don't know 'what's up with them' lol.  But whenever I have them, or realise that they were only FA's.  I have A LOT of them.  Like 20 or more.  The last ones I had were when I was lucid, pretty sure it was fully if I remember correctly.  Then I lost lucidity and 'woke up' needing to piss.  I walked to the toilet, halfway down the hallway I'm like 'F&^* I'm still dreaming lucky I didn't piss'.  So I 'woke up' again and again and again, but sometimes I used the LD the other times I was just thinking shit I need to piss so I need to wake up, the former ones were probably semi-lucid since I didn't think about RL as much, or at all.  The last FA, I think I pissed and I was like 'OH NO!!!! it's still a god damn dream I'm gonna wake up with piss all over me!'.  Luckily I didn't and finally woke myself up for real.

Dunno the point of that story but just maybe a point for discussion to begin on FA's.  Plus it was real annoying lol.  I couldn't enjoy my LD.

Oh and also the other day I was thinking about this thread and I had something to contribute.  I realised that I tend to be more scared that something is happening to my body IRL when I am fully lucid so I try to wake myself up.  Like one time I looked at this plant really closely and a massive spider dropped on my head and bit me with like all it's claws/arms (felt like claws).  Anyway it gave me a seizure in the dream so I forced myself to wake up in case I was actually having a seizure IRL.

It's happened a few other times also, but can't recall them at this time.

P.S - Are we getting off-topic here?  Seems like we are a bit....

----------


## apprentice

> I would like some feedback on this.  I could go on and on, but if nobody cares, I'll keep it to myself.



hi, I just wanted to say that I like your ideas!
all very interesting.

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## Hukif

Ah well, I don't know much but... isn't that a little obvius when you talk of the common dream kind? Since its just the representantion of something you have in your brain to an alternal reality, and since our reality is only the things that we decode in our brain via the materials (the places where our senses are located at) of our body, then if we don't get the code of a material it won't appear on the brain and therefore it won't exist for the life form in subject. Said that, it works the same way, since the things we see in common dreams are just another representation of those codes in form of images, and as so the ones that aren't got are non-existant, and the ones that are ignored, becomes non-decoded and non-existant too. Tough the emotions can have or not a place in there, since some people will get an alter of the decoding because of those, and some won't, not sure on the emotion field <.<

----------


## tommo

Wow, wanna slip some grammar in there?
Anyway think I get what you're saying and yes these things are all quite obvious, but discussing it leaves a chance for more insight and investigation into why all this happens and further things that you might not find quite so obvious.  Also discussing it lets people have input and could change how you think about it.

For example if you investigate say, bones of a velociraptor, you might go in thinking clear headed and thinking critically but then once you keep dwelling on this one thing by yourself your judgment would become clouded because you have no input from other people.  You might have a sudden feeling that this bone is only 100 years old and you would start looking for things that verify this, yet if someone was there with you they would say 'nah it's just dust' lol or whatever.  I don't know if I got to the point there but that is why people discuss obvious things.

Cusp came up with some interesting ideas and eventually started thinking he could apply this to real life just the same as in a dream, he obviously won't agree with me but I believe he dwelled on it too long by himself.  Therefore he started getting carried away with some ideas without someone there to say "wait a minute, you're not thinking clearly, real life cannot be manipulated like a dream etc etc"

----------


## Hukif

"hits self" Sorry for the grammar <.<

And yes, I get what your saying (or I think that I does) so technically its for help make the idea clearer about the subject and at the same time give the info to anyone who isn't paying attention to it, right? Interesting.

----------


## anomanderis

This mornign when I was semi-lucid, I tried Fullmetal Alchemist again: I clapped my palms together, put them to the ground and imagined a giant spike coming out of the earth to pierce a truck that was on the road and flinging it in the air. No spike came, but the truck went airborne like I had imagined :smiley:

----------


## The Cusp

> Wow, wanna slip some grammar in there?
> Anyway think I get what you're saying and yes these things are all quite obvious, but discussing it leaves a chance for more insight and investigation into why all this happens and further things that you might not find quite so obvious.  Also discussing it lets people have input and could change how you think about it.
> 
> For example if you investigate say, bones of a velociraptor, you might go in thinking clear headed and thinking critically but then once you keep dwelling on this one thing by yourself your judgment would become clouded because you have no input from other people.  You might have a sudden feeling that this bone is only 100 years old and you would start looking for things that verify this, yet if someone was there with you they would say 'nah it's just dust' lol or whatever.  I don't know if I got to the point there but that is why people discuss obvious things.
> 
> Cusp came up with some interesting ideas and eventually started thinking he could apply this to real life just the same as in a dream, he obviously won't agree with me but I believe he dwelled on it too long by himself.  Therefore he started getting carried away with some ideas without someone there to say "wait a minute, you're not thinking clearly, real life cannot be manipulated like a dream etc etc"



I love both those examples, as they both show the second rule can work.  You mind if I use those when I turn this into a book?

And I don't disagree with the second one about me at all.   Because that's exactly how it happens.  I'm not sure if that was meant to undermine my argument, since it supports it so beautifully.  It does however create a bit of a paradox of the chicken and egg type.  My focusing on the idea too much would, according to the second rule, create the excessive detail I'm putting into this thread, creating the very rules themselves.  

From that perspective, it sounds like a self fulfilling fantasy or delusion, but even the delusion scenario unfolds according to those rules.  

Unfortunately I can't take full credit for coming up with all this.  It was shown to me by someone else.  Or at least I figured it out by watching someone else who knew how to apply it.  I'm not sure if they were intentionally trying to show me or not.  I'll get to that story later.  It's a whopper.

----------


## tommo

Yep sure, you can use it, just as long as you give me a copy!  ::D: 
Good luck with your endeavor!

----------


## The Cusp

*The Dangers of Family and Close friends.*

I learned of lucid dreaming through Carlos Castaneda's books.  Besides lucid dreaming, which to my amazement turned out to be true, it also contained several other tips and practices for dreaming.  This is actually where the whole looking at your hands during dreams thing came from.

Most of these dream tips sounded strange and didn't make much sense, but damned if they didn't work, which is why the hands thing is still around.  Because it works.

One of the things he mentioned is that family and close friends should be avoided at all costs at dreams.  It sounded like good advice, but I really had no clue why that should be so.  The attention and emotion rules explain why they are such a threat to your dreaming.

*The Data*
To better understand why Family and such should be avoided, I asked for examples and hit the DJs to see exactly what happens when people interact with family DCs.  

It turn out that things generally don't go too well.  In most cases there are arguments, family attacking you, family members getting hurt, getting attacked or being chased.  Even just being worried about their health or wasting a lucid trying to convince a stubborn family member that this is a dream.  I'd estimate about 90&#37; of the dreams I've read involving family go sour in some way.

*Applying Rule 2*
These DCs are people you love, sometimes hate, which causes you to lavish more attention on them.  They are indeed attention magnets, and this increased attention causes family member to become central elements in the formation of the dream.  This may not sound too bad, but it causes a couple of problems.

The first problem is the sheer wealth of experience you've had with these people.  Anything you associate with them or have shared with those people, be it from childhood or last week, could pop in your dream about them.  There are too many possibilities associated with them, too many ways the the dream could go to allow for good control.

_*Note:  These kind of elements with vast amounts of associations can still be very useful in dream.  But ideally you'd want to use something other than family, like a door or a tree.  Control doesn't always mean achieving achieving specific results.  Sometime you just need to break a bad theme and you can use these general elements to randomly create some new elements._

The main problem is the associated dream elements that usually occur as a result of the extra attention given to family, are ones that are tied to strong emotions.  

*Rule 3.*
We obviously care about these people a great deal, and strong emotions are a powerful force in shaping our dreams.  

Memory as been been shown to improve remarkably when intense emotions are being experienced during the event to be recalled.  With the emotional roller coaster that is family, there is a vast wealth of these strong emotional memories that you associate with these people in your mind.  So it's really no surprise that these stronger memories are the first to surface in dreams.

*Conclusion*
Effectively applying the second rule to improve dreaming requites a balance of attention.  Too much on any one element and it pull you in too deep, drowning you in a sea of detail.  Too little, and things destabilize, fall apart, and become incoherent.  DCs of family members and close friends tend to tip the scales into the too much side, which is compounded by the strong emotional bond we have with these people.

----------


## Hazel

First of all, WOW. These are some excellent views on dream control, Cusp! I've read most of it, but I'm going to print it out so I can study it better.

Also, I think the part about synchronicity is very interesting, especially because it's been happening to me a LOT in the past few days. Strange how I should read this when I've been noticing all these other coincidences.

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## Hakura7

wow you have a lot ot say and it is good that you are thinking about this it is very interesting what you were talking about, but it does make since....nice thoughts, mabye there should be an intire forum just for philisophy of dreams

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## tommo

Very true Cusp!
Might need to read that book myself.

Every dream I can remember involving family has been scary or disturbing or both.

One involved my brother and sister attacking my younger sister and splitting her head on the gutter.  They used to gang up on her a bit IRL.  I kind of did, and I realise now that this was telling me what will happen if I join them.  Not that she'll get her skull cracked open lol but just that it will destroy her.  Too bad I couldn't realise that earlier when I had the dream.

Anyway, others are always my feelings towards family members at the time being amplified.  For instance I hated all my family once because I felt they were against me and I had a dream where they were all monsters etc.

Another one was when I was lucid recently and I sometimes discuss LD's with my mum, or rather tell her about them.  She doesn't really care and says that I should put effort into other things.  In the LD I constantly had FA's and she was trying to tell me it isn't a dream.

So yeh, that's a very good point.

Also just one thing unrelated to that that I feel I need to say here is I have had a few terribly depressing dreams recently containing this girl from my high school I was friends with.  She was always telling me in the dreams that she just doesn't like me and wishes that I'd go away.  This is because I was thinking about her a lot and wondering if she still likes me or not (complicated but that's the gist of it).  Then last night I had a wonderful dream with her again and she was nice to me.  At first I thought 'oh she's gonna make me feel like shit again' but I took the risk and talked to her.  She was nice and it just felt like ecstasy.  But the only bad thing that I didn't even think about until now was that she was going to jail and she asked me to take this bag of weed and I said that I would bring her some of my home grown stuff while she's in there or bring her other drugs I could get.  I have no idea why this happened lol it's just so strange.  But I don't know if my thoughts have changed about her IRL, I am still wondering if she likes me or just doesn't think about me.  So I don't know why this dream was so different from the others.  Any thoughts?  I'm thinking maybe just the slightest change in emotion can effect your dreams and that's how strong it is.  But I welcome input from anyone.

----------


## anomanderis

> Also just one thing unrelated to that that I feel I need to say here is I have had a few terribly depressing dreams recently containing this girl from my high school I was friends with.  She was always telling me in the dreams that she just doesn't like me and wishes that I'd go away.  This is because I was thinking about her a lot and wondering if she still likes me or not (complicated but that's the gist of it).  Then last night I had a wonderful dream with her again and she was nice to me.  At first I thought 'oh she's gonna make me feel like shit again' but I took the risk and talked to her.  She was nice and it just felt like ecstasy.  But the only bad thing that I didn't even think about until now was that she was going to jail and she asked me to take this bag of weed and I said that I would bring her some of my home grown stuff while she's in there or bring her other drugs I could get.  I have no idea why this happened lol it's just so strange.  But I don't know if my thoughts have changed about her IRL, I am still wondering if she likes me or just doesn't think about me.  So I don't know why this dream was so different from the others.  Any thoughts?  I'm thinking maybe just the slightest change in emotion can effect your dreams and that's how strong it is.  But I welcome input from anyone.



Her  dream-self probably didn't like you very much, because  you feared she didn't like you. The fear didn't have to be logical or even that strong, it just had to be there to influence your dream that way.  
Either she was  good to you because of some weird fluke (unlikely), or for that moment, you let go of the fear. Which seems, by your account, exactly what you did.
I really don't know enough about you and her to tell you what the weed might mean ::D: 

I had a sort of half-fight with my ex-gf in msn last night, where i really wanted her to understand something, but for her to understand it, i couldn't _merely_ say it to her. Which caused her to misunderstand me and yada yada....
What was interesting though, that night I had a dream  where I was already dating some other girl and she wanted me back, tried to seduce me. 
We three were sitting together on a couch and I had skin contact with both of them. The moment my ex-gf touched me, I could sense a MUCH stronger/intense connection than with the DC i was dating. Don't really know what that meant, yet.

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## Njd1990

Wow. Just reading over this thread has been 'food for thought'.

Great posts Cusp, as well as the others.

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## tommo

> Either she was  good to you because of some weird fluke (unlikely), or for that moment, you let go of the fear. Which seems, by your account, exactly what you did.



Well I have been trying to let go of my fears recently, hmmmm.  Maybe the two things molded together.  Must think about this a bit more....  It does make sense.  Thanks!





> I had a sort of half-fight with my ex-gf in msn last night, where i really wanted her to understand something, but for her to understand it, i couldn't _merely_ say it to her. Which caused her to misunderstand me and yada yada....
> What was interesting though, that night I had a dream  where I was already dating some other girl and she wanted me back, tried to seduce me. 
> We three were sitting together on a couch and I had skin contact with both of them. The moment my ex-gf touched me, I could sense a MUCH stronger/intense connection than with the DC i was dating. Don't really know what that meant, yet.



Well, emotions are almost always more intense in dreams.  So it could mean nothing, but then it also means that you would have an even stronger connection with your ex-gf in your dream too.  Since you didn't it would seem to me that you maybe don't like ur ex as much, maybe you feel you can get a better partner.
What was the other girl like?  Someone you would be interested in IRL?

Also of course it could have just been your frustration with ur ex IRL for not understanding what you were trying to say.  But since you already know that it was a difficult thing to just explain then maybe the former is more likely the answer.

----------


## anomanderis

Do dreams with real family members take place often for you guys? I've tried to remember, but I can only recall about 3 dreams where one of my family was present. Once, my little brother, and twice my father, though the only one playing himself was my bro and that dream too was years ago.
I can't remember ever having a fight with family in a dream... maybe that's because I never get involved in such quarrels, because I know its pointless.

----------


## The Cusp

> Very true Cusp!
> Also just one thing unrelated to that that I feel I need to say here is I have had a few terribly depressing dreams recently containing this girl from my high school I was friends with.  She was always telling me in the dreams that she just doesn't like me and wishes that I'd go away.  This is because I was thinking about her a lot and wondering if she still likes me or not



I think fear of being rejected is pretty common for just about everyone.  You say you've been thinking about her a lot, so obviously that is going to incubate her in your dreams.





> Do dreams with real family members take place often for you guys? I've tried to remember, but I can only recall about 3 dreams where one of my family was present. Once, my little brother, and twice my father, though the only one playing himself was my bro and that dream too was years ago.
> I can't remember ever having a fight with family in a dream... maybe that's because I never get involved in such quarrels, because I know its pointless.



I have family dreams fairly often, but I see my family quite a bit since my brother had a baby girl.  

Possibly you're just spending more time with other people, and it's those other people who show up in your dreams?

----------


## The Cusp

A lot of people still have doubts that these rules can be applied to RL to effect change .  By controlling where you place your attention and your emotional state, then logically, any change experienced would only be from your perspective. 

The trick is that you can not only manipulate your own attention and emotions, but you can manipulate the attention and emotions of other people as well.

Here's an example that happened to my yesterday.  I was purchasing something at the store, and I expected the total to be just over 10$ so I had a 10 and a 5 out and ready.  I was surprised to hear the cashier tell me it was just under 10$.  I had it held out to give to him, so I took the 5 back.  Anyways, he ended giving me an extra 5 dollars in change.  The way I was holding it made my 15 dollars the main focal point, which implanted the idea of 15 dollars in his mind.  I gave the money back.

Applying these rules on other through actions can be a difficult thing to conceptualize, and I have a few more topics I'd like to cover before I get into that any deeper.  But one area where I think there is a very clear cause and effect relationship between applying these rules to RL and effecting tangible change in the world around you is writing.


*More Practical RL Applications:  Writing*

*Political Newspaper Propaganda Articles*
I've always loved these articles in the paper.  Far from impartial reporting, these pieces are written with purpose and intent, which is to make people vote for the party they represent.  I people who write these are know as "King makers"

There are three main tactics for doing this, which just happen to be the three rules of dreaming.  They fit very with with the whole Public Relations aspect of politics as a whole.

_1. Everything requires your attention to exist._
While an important and fundamental rule, most of the time this one seems pretty redundant.  But politics take advantage of this rule like like nothing else.  With simple denials and by ignoring key issues, many things get swept under the rug, so to speak. 

It's safe to say Politicians are masters of the first rule.  If you want to learn how to apply the first rule better, that's where you should look.  I could give countless examples, but I'm sure everyone can do the same off the top of their head.  "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" comes to mind.

_2.The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on._
This one is simple really.  Associate the candidate you support with positive issues, and the opposition with negative issues.  By emphasizing certain elements and drawing attention to them, it's possible to engineer these types of negative or positive associations. Once these associations are in place, then whenever someone who's been exposed to this enough things about the candidate, the second rule creates corresponding positive or negative thoughts.
_
3.  Rule of emotions (Still under construction)_
You will rarely read about issues that are truly important in the newspaper.  Instead they favor the issues that get people emotionally charged, either strongly for or against.  This is to reinforce what they are trying to do with rule 2, as stronger more prominent memories are formed during intense emotions.  These memories charged with emotion are usually the first to surface.


*Commercials and Advertising*
These ones are pretty self evident.  They are designed solely for the purpose of capturing your attention, drawing you in, and making people buy.  A clear case of making things happen by using the second rule. 

*
Creative Writing*
Getting away from the manipulative aspects, these rules can be applied to creative writing as well.  I've had aspirations to do some creative writing for a long time, but I've always had difficulty deciding how much descriptive detail to include in my writing.  Also choosing which elements to describe can be rather difficult.

Second Rule.  

***  OMG it's too hot and humid.  Again, I'll have to finish this later

----------


## tommo

Yeh I have dreams with family members quite often, and I was going to say was cusp said, maybe you just spend less time with them, or maybe you have less or no things to work out with them so you don't have to figure it out in your dreams.

Cusp I have to admit I get completely zoned out when the word politics is  :paranoid: ..............................
lol jk, when the word politics is mentioned.  But I get most of what you are saying I think.  In the media aspect it is like they put fear into us to evoke strong emotional responses so we also remember it easier as well, do you think this could be why we remember nightmares more vividly?.  Anyway the media fear tactic is usually a bad thing but I'm glad to see you use this kind of thing for good.  With the money thing.

So I'm confused now, do you think you kind of change peoples responses subconsciously, like with the money, or are u saying it's sort of supernatural thing?
Coz I agree that you can do that, like I can't even can't how many times I've purposely made myself look sad or angry or happy, just with like subtle facial expressions I think they call them micro expressions or micro body language or something ( i read it in a body language book once but cant remember exactly) to make people do something.  Like I don't exploit it majorly, just for little things.  And I think it's their subconscious that picks up on these tiny expressions.

The strangest is when I think of something and sort of try to communicate it to them without talking and they suddenly think of the same thing.

That made no sense I'lkl type it a bit better tomoro sorry lol

----------


## anomanderis

I guess the reason why I don't have dreams with family members in them, because I'm pretty much a hermit. And even when I am with them, I don't get emotionally involved.

Talking about the change and politics, it will be very hard for some to believe that this has any "supernatural" basis. I think its a bit of both:  cues picked up subconsciously (body language, subliminal messaging, hypnosis) and the aspect that modern science can't quite explain yet, though which magick (kabbalah, hermetics, ...) has explained for centuries. 
 Heard of Derren Brown? He does some AWESOME stuff with hypnosis, NLP, body language and whatever alien powers he possesses ::D: :
http://youtube.com/watch?v=II_-QcW4Q4I
http://youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IOEKdaXIEHc

Although he says that none of the things he does is anything supernatural, just psychology and so on, there are some things that are impossible to explain away like that:
he made a woman look at passers-by from, i think, a second storey window, trying to make them stop by willing it. (given instructions  by Derren) She does it! How that is psychology, I do not know...

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## The Cusp

> I guess the reason why I don't have dreams with family members in them, because I'm pretty much a hermit. And even when I am with them, I don't get emotionally involved.
> 
> Talking about the change and politics, it will be very hard for some to believe that this has any "supernatural" basis. I think its a bit of both:  cues picked up subconsciously (body language, subliminal messaging, hypnosis) and the aspect that modern science can't quite explain yet, though which magick (kabbalah, hermetics, ...) has explained for centuries. 
>  Heard of Derren Brown? He does some AWESOME stuff with hypnosis, NLP, body language and whatever alien powers he possesses:
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=II_-QcW4Q4I
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=IOEKdaXIEHc
> 
> Although he says that none of the things he does is anything supernatural, just psychology and so on, there are some things that are impossible to explain away like that:
> he made a woman look at passers-by from, i think, a second storey window, trying to make them stop by willing it. (given instructions  by Derren) She does it! How that is psychology, I do not know...



I'm not claiming any of this has a supernatural basis.  Just the opposite, this is nature it's self.

I was actually planning a chapter on hypnosis.  I was thinking I could use these methods to explain hypnosis, and to hypnotize people myself.  But that's going to take a lot research, study and practice.

In high school, I would sometime do what I called the "look of death".  I could use it on anyone walking down the hall and make them stop dead in their tracks.  I got bored with making people stop, then started trying to use it to make people drop their books, which would work every now and then.

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## Schmaven

> In high school, I would sometime do what I called the "look of death".  I could use it on anyone walking down the hall and make them stop dead in their tracks.  I got bored with making people stop, then started trying to use it to make people drop their books, which would work every now and then.



lmao that's awesome.  I wish I could've seen you give someone the look of death and cause them to drop their books.

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## tommo

Yeh that's what I'm talking bout' cusp, little gestures or expressions and such that you can do that make people do certain things.  Just like a smile can make someone feel happy other things can make people do or feel something else.

Can't watch those videos at the moment every video on youtube just says no longer available ? computer fucked i think ?

Anyway I had this dream last night in this country where we were on a trip for can't believe I didn't get lucid.  I don't go to school anymore but even more obvious is what follows.  We were in Argentina I think, not really sure just what it 'felt' like lol.  And I looked in the sky, it was night time and there were two moons.  So obviously my attention switched to that, I told someone look there's two moons wtf? then realised one was being projected by someone, and I could see the light lines and that's how I knew, then almost as soon as I realised there was also the real moon plus the two moons I had noticed which I realised were both projected.  Then it jsut got out of control and about 10 people came outside and 10 more moons appeared then about 30 people and 30 moons!
LOL.  It didn't take long, just how much I was focusing on it caused all this crazy shite to happen.

Anyway we have well established that this works now but I just wanna keep reminding myself, sorry if I get a little repetitive.

----------


## anomanderis

the links work for me. just try searching for derren brown.

----------


## anomanderis

I had a weird kind of lucid nightmare this morning. I was in a massive underground tunnel, it was practically pitch-black and the only things separating me from falling into the pit were these quite solid, but still dodgy-looking metal gratings.
I became lucid and I was afraid. Maybe because of the darkness. The fear made me think that there might be monsters close by. And then I thought 'Well, frack me, if there weren't any before, then me thinking this will make them appear anyway'. Which was true, because monsters started coming at me one by one. First an alien (conveniently from the movie Alien, you see. I had nightmares as a child when I watched those movies), then a predator, then someone I don't recall and finally a glowing skeleton-thingy with a luminescent chain with a circular blade at the end of it. 
I didn't fail to defeat them, though. As they came at me, I made them into little hand-sized  figures and gobbled them up. 
It bothers me that I felt such fear "out of the blu- um.. dark" and that I didn't realize I could dispel the monsters by thinking happy thoughts. I wasn't afraid of the monsters themselves, but of the surrounding environment.  Guess it still shows that I was really really scared of the dark when I was younger. Even though I love darkness now.

----------


## The Cusp

> Yeh that's what I'm talking bout' cusp, little gestures or expressions and such that you can do that make people do certain things.  Just like a smile can make someone feel happy other things can make people do or feel something else.



Here's another example, again from my high school years, which I'm very proud of.  Our english class was debating the pros and cons of the Nuclear family (Mother, father, 2.5 kids and a dog), and as we were allowed to make our own groups, it turned into the guys VS. the girls.

Our side was at a bit of a disadvantage, as the girls tended to be harder working than the guys, and their group had the smartest people in the class.  The topic of homosexual couples raising kids came up on our side, and the girls overheard us and started coming up with counter arguments, which I happened to overhear.

It's then that I came up with my plan.  We would pretend to be biased against homosexuals, and make it appear that this aspect would be our main argument.  This made the girls do a lot of work coming up with great counter arguments.  Unfortunately for them, when the debate rolled around, we avoided that topic like slick politicians, so that all their hard work was completely wasted and irrelevant.

One of the most effective methods to accomplish this trickery for the debate was a massive green tome my friend found at the library, which said "GAY IS NOT GOOD" in big bold letters on the cover.  We spent the majority of our class prep time thumping that book with our fists like it was a bible, which was great fun!  

Our opposition's greatest assets was their strong work ethic, so I used that against them.  We directed their attention on that one topic, forcing them to spend the majority of their efforts preparing for it, then we blindsided them with topics they weren't so well prepared for and won the debate.  They had no chance. I had single handedly won that debate on the first day it was announced.





> I had a weird kind of lucid nightmare this morning. I was in a massive underground tunnel, it was practically pitch-black and the only things separating me from falling into the pit were these quite solid, but still dodgy-looking metal gratings.
> I became lucid and I was afraid. Maybe because of the darkness. The fear made me think that there might be monsters close by. And then I thought 'Well, frack me, if there weren't any before, then me thinking this will make them appear anyway'. Which was true, because monsters started coming at me one by one. First an alien (conveniently from the movie Alien, you see. I had nightmares as a child when I watched those movies), then a predator, then someone I don't recall and finally a glowing skeleton-thingy with a luminescent chain with a circular blade at the end of it.



I had somewhat similar non lucid dream last night.  Only instead of expecting monsters, I was expecting prostitutes.  And sure enough, there they were!  They gave the best back rubs. ::D:

----------


## tommo

haha nice work on that debate cusp.  Not really sure what a nuclear family has to do with gays, actually im not even sure wat a nuclear family is or how u can have two point five kids. but neway lol.  That besides the point.

one example I have of those looks or watever are whenever a teacher was picking a person to answer a question or read a book I could give a certain look and do certain things that would make them not choose me.  (I hated talking in front of people so much) I seriously barely ever got chosen like 99% of the time I wouldn't.  Except for when I did get chosen I knew I was going to get chosen I said to myself "oh fuck she's gonna choose me" and she did.

----------


## anomanderis

How long did it take for you to gain control over your lucidity, the Cusp? 
It seems that i'm not one to have lucids if i don't stick to my keep-that-bloody-awareness practice. Though when I do and when i don't force control (flying, for instance) i am able to retain lucidity much longer than usual. The time i am able to do this seems to be increasing (though not yet by minutes, just ten or more seconds per lucid spell).
Today I had a weird lucid. When I force control, the end of lucidity (and me waking up) usually comes very abruptly, but when i'm not forcing it, i can sense it coming a few seconds ahead. I was lucid for quite a long time (compared to the usual length) and when i started losing it, i decided to try the hand method. I looked at them, rubbing them together to ground my awareness inside the dreamscape. As I looked at them, they strobed with an extremely bright white light and then sort of shifted positions erratically (sort of like when a light is blinking and you move your arms, so each time you see them, they are in a different position). Very weird.
Now I was really starting to lose lucidity. I could hear the noises that my sleeping body was hearing, but because i kept rubbing my hands together, i managed to cling on to lucidity. So as not to move my physical hands, i kept the motion to a minimum. 
Half a minute more and I would've been lucid in a dream again, but that's when my alarm clock decided to ring :tongue2:

----------


## The Cusp

> How long did it take for you to gain control over your lucidity, the Cusp?



I really don't know how to answer that.  I've probably been LDing for about 15 years, and I still wouldn't say I have control.  There's just always so much do in dreaming, always something new to explore.

My very first few lucids I failed at almost everything out of the ordinary that I tried to do.  After a few successful tricks, I was able to repeat those I had previously done more easily.  So I would rely on those one and use the hell out of them until I got really good.  I tend to go overboard and have dreams where I repeat the same thing hundreds of times very quickly in different circumstances and scenarios. Every now and then I'd pull off a new trick and be able to replicate it much easier each time I tried it.  Kind of like adding magical spells to a spellbook.

And I've been pretty much doing that ever since.  But, after doing that for so long, the stuff I try now can get pretty complex or abstract.  To the point where often I will know I was lucid, but the things I was doing with it can't even be translated into a waking context.  I'm just left with the impression that I was doing something either really important or really cool, and at best I can just recall a few flashes that don't seem to make any sense.

----------


## The Cusp

All my notes on various things are rather chaotic and I keep losing track of stuff, so I just want note some future topics on this subject here.

-Next will most likely be my conclusions from my Vampire, Werewolf, Zombie study.

-Then Secret origins of these rules and Shared dreaming.

-Reconciling the ILDs.  There are way too many LD techniques.  There has to be elements these techniques have in common, and I'm willing to bet that the majority of them (Or at least the good ones) use these rules in some way.

And for the RL side of things, which will take a lot of research, I have the following to investigate
*-Hypnotism* -  Look evidence of these rules in hypnotism methods.  I'm sure I can use these rules to hypnotize people myself.
*-Summoning* -  A bit out there, but if there is any truth to it, then the rituals should mirror these rules as well.  

And I still have to finish the bit on creative writing.  So much to do, so little time.

----------


## seeker28

Thanks, Cusp and everyone for keeping this going.  It has been really interesting.  I wanted to add a bit.

When I was in juniour high and HS I used to do what I called "little miracles."  All  of my friends knew I could do this, so from time to time they'd ask me for one of my "miracles."  Generally they'd track me down before school started and tell me they hadn't studied for a test or had forgotten their homework and needed their teacher in a specific class to not do the test or to not collect the homework.  I'd say, "Okay, you have your miracle."  Then, without fail, whatever they'd wanted would happen.  Sometimes they wanted other stuff -- a guy to notice them, for their parents to not get mad for something they'd done, etc.  And everytime it worked.  I "granted" more than 100 miracles and never had any of them not come true.  The law of attraction in action.

Now I like to use it to get parking spaces where I want them. 

I dream frequently about my family members.  Most of them do include some form of struggle or tension.

----------


## tommo

> Now I like to use it to get parking spaces where I want them.



Lol, reminds of The Chasers, in one episode they're testing it and they're like driving around a parking lot and they're like.  "Ok.... we have to use it, let's do it" and they put their fingers to their temples and visualise a parking space and ask for it etc etc.  "Ok turn right...... NOW!" *SMASH* "WTF!?!?"
Haha gotta see it.

Oh and I'll be practicing some more RL things and report here.  Haven't done anything in a while.

----------


## anomanderis

> Thanks, Cusp and everyone for keeping this going.  It has been really interesting.  I wanted to add a bit.
> 
> When I was in juniour high and HS I used to do what I called "little miracles."  All  of my friends knew I could do this, so from time to time they'd ask me for one of my "miracles."  Generally they'd track me down before school started and tell me they hadn't studied for a test or had forgotten their homework and needed their teacher in a specific class to not do the test or to not collect the homework.  I'd say, "Okay, you have your miracle."  Then, without fail, whatever they'd wanted would happen.  Sometimes they wanted other stuff -- a guy to notice them, for their parents to not get mad for something they'd done, etc.  And everytime it worked.  I "granted" more than 100 miracles and never had any of them not come true.  The law of attraction in action.
> 
> Now I like to use it to get parking spaces where I want them. 
> 
> I dream frequently about my family members.  Most of them do include some form of struggle or tension.



How do you do it? Do you just know that it will happen that way? 
Ever created "big miracles"? :smiley:

----------


## The Cusp

Seeker28, that's awesome how you would do those "little miracles".  I might ask you for help with one someday.

I kind of do something similar to your parking spaces trick.  When crossing the street on foot, I almost never have to wait for the lights to change.  They just change for me at the perfect time so that I never miss a step.  Doesn't work out that way when I'm driving though.

----------


## seeker28

*anomanderis* at that age I didn't even know what I was doing.  I'd never heard of the Law of Attraction.  But I just knew if I asked for something and totally believed it would happen, and was excited about it, it happened.  I never tried to do anything big.  Actually, wait.  I guess I have.  I got my partner her current job this way.  However, it could easily be argued it was because of her qualifications, etc.  When she told me she was applying for her job and really wanted it.  I knew she needed a job like it, and then I decided she'd get it.  After that I just _knew_ she would get it.  Even when it took them about 3 months to get back to her about it.

*The Cusp* I'd be happy to try it again.  I'd like to say I have doubts it would work, but that's not quite true.

----------


## seeker28

First I'd like to apologize for any spelling errors, etc.  I'm having one of my weird days.

I have been experimenting off and on with dream control as described here.  So far I can say I have found all of this to be spot-on.

*control in a semi-LD versus a fully-LD:*
Recently I've had a few LDs that I'd call "completely" lucid -- knew fully that my mind was creating everything I was experienceing.  I've been using autosuggestion with the phrase "say 'I'm dreaming' then embrace the possibilities."  These recent fully lucid LDs have happened since I starte that autosuggestion.  In them I've had perfect or nearly perfect control.  The time I had "nearly perfect" control I had to mime climbing a rope to fly up a tree.  I think that happened because I often mime that to fly up trees.  I've been doing all kings of unusually awesome dream control.  Sutuff I usualy have a hard time with or can't do at all.  Later when i'm doing bettyer I'll post some dream excerpts here.

----------


## anomanderis

> *anomanderis* at that age I didn't even know what I was doing.  I'd never heard of the Law of Attraction.  But I just knew if I asked for something and totally believed it would happen, and was excited about it, it happened.  I never tried to do anything big.  Actually, wait.  I guess I have.  I got my partner her current job this way.  However, it could easily be argued it was because of her qualifications, etc.  When she told me she was applying for her job and really wanted it.  I knew she needed a job like it, and then I decided she'd get it.  After that I just _knew_ she would get it.  Even when it took them about 3 months to get back to her about it.



I think you pretty much do it in the same way I do. For stuff to happen, I really need to _feel_ _good_. I don't know why, but maybe because this _feeling good_ makes me think about the term 'inner storm', that I tend to affect the weather when i'm in that state of consciousness. 
Come to think about it... I've been unusually happy a few times recently and its been raining for 2 weeks.  ::lol::  Ah, my imagined connections....

----------


## tommo

I think most people feel sad when it's raining/shit day.  Dunno the exact reason but I'm guessing coz it's darker and darkness makes you tired; tired = sad because you don't have much energy to do anything.
So what I'm saying is maybe it's the weather effecting you not the other way round.

----------


## Oneironaut Zero

This is actually the first time I've seen this (interesting) thread, and I don't have time to go through the whole thing yet, so I'll just respond to a few parts of it. Sorry if I only rehash what's already been said.






> *1. Everything in your dreams requires your attention to exist.
> *
> 
> While this may seem obvious, it's still one of the most basic principles of dreaming. The only things that exist in a dream are things that you are aware of. It's not complete world that you wander around in and explore. As soon as you stop paying attention to something and forget about it, it ceases to exist. If you are in a closed room and can't see the outside, then the outside doesn't exist. When you open to door to go outside, it could lead anywhere, into space or hell or the city of the mole people. 
> 
> The point is, nothing exists in your dreams until you become aware of it.  Much like Schrodinger's Cat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat
> 
> This can be a useful tool I've used effectively in the past to deal enemies while lucid. If you don't pay something any attention, it will cease to exist. Kind of like when your parents told you as a kid to just ignore whoever is bothering you (I hate it when they're right!).
> 
> ...



Was it you I had a talk with about this, before, Cusp? The whole "does a DC have guts if you can't see them" thing? In either case, it's important to remember that "awareness" has many levels, leading even into subconscious awareness (I'm not saying you disagree, I'm just adding to the context  :smiley:  ).  So, that is to say, I'm not sure we have to actually see/hear/feel/etc something for it to exist in dreams. I believe that even a subconscious awareness - an activated schema that has not risen to the level of "conscious thought" - can affect a dream. 

I've always found the schema concept fascinating, and I believe that this is how dreams progress (and why they often do so in a seemingly erratic nature). But, for this to be the case, that would mean that schematic concepts that we are not yet _actively_ aware of still hold influence. 

If you are dreaming that you are sitting in your room, with the door closed, one might say that the living room doesn't exist if you're not actively aware of it. But, being in such a familiar setting, your subconscious _knows_ the kitchen is there, even if you're not thinking about it at the time. Does your mind already have some abstraction of the living room model created, ready to be thrown into the context of the dream, upon your walking out of the room? This would make sense, as with word schemas, the mind activates schemas for context even when the particular concept isn't being used.

For example: If someone says "Dream," the mind would probably activate schemas such as "Bed", "sleep", "night", "lucidity," "nightmare," "flight," etc. Anything that it could associate with "Dream." Even if you're not aware that these words are being gathered by your subconscious, and prepared to throw into the context of conversation, they are.

So, if the schemas that (I believe) conduct how dreams progress, then it's possible that just the most subtle trigger of a subconscious "living room" schema could create some sort of abstract model of how your mind will present your living room to you, whenever you decide to leave your room and walk into it.

Technically, you are still "aware," of the living room, before you become _consciously_ attentive to it (albeit subconsciously), but it just makes you wonder exactly how aware of something you actually have to be, before it loses its (to use S. Cat terms) "superposition," and collapses into a solid state.






> *A Deeper Look at the Effect of Emotions*
> 
> Again, I feel *emotions* deserve a special mention.  I'm assuming for the moment that emotions are something that require your attention to exist as well.  But I'm not too sure about that at all, and the emotional influence may turn out a third rule.  Anyone have any thoughts on weather emotions are something that require your attention to exist, or whether they they are independent entities?
> 
> Emotions are like a *filter* or like a *color lens*.  Each emotion shapes your dreams in predictable ways, affecting both your surroundings and the behavior of DCs.  Anger will cause harsh colors and sharp angles, and my cause DCs to fight or fear you.  The effects of fear are obvious, painfully so in dreams.
> 
> Both this *Emotional technique* and the the *Attention technique* can be used independently, or in combination with each other.  Sometimes it may be better to use one technique over the other.  The emotional technique won't change the physical elements as drastically as the Attention technique, but will change the look, feel and mood of the dream, as well as influence DC behavior.
> 
> By practicing this you will begin to notice that DCs are puppets and you are the puppet master, only your emotions are the strings.  You can influence the way DCs act, and the types of things they say, but not what they say.  It's interesting to note that people in RL react the same way in the presence of strong emotions as do DCs.  After the confidence and practice gained from using this in dreams, it would stand to reason that this could be used to influence people in RL as well.  It seems people do this all the time anyways, but very clumsily for the most part.  
> ...



That is _really_ interesting. I've never really tried manipulating my emotions in dreams. I'm definitely going to have to experiment with that. I will offer that emotions don't necessarily require your attention to exist, but that they can be overwritten. A show I saw two nights ago actually helped convince me that emotions can exist with or without your awareness. It is common in some patients with Tourette's Syndrome to have _emotional_ ticks, along side the well-known physical ticks. A neural firing will automatically flip any emotion on/off in an instant, like a light switch. When the victim snaps out of the tick (in the case of one girl they were talking about, at the least) they may have no recollection of the emotional breakdown they'd just had.

Also, it has been said that there are nerves in the brain that can be stimulated by (surgical) hand, that can make you break down into tears, or laugh hysterically.

But, even if they do have the power to "kick in," at involuntary times, I do believe that emotions can be controlled and manipulated, so I'd definitely to play around with that a bit, while dreaming, and see what sort of affects it has on the environment.

----------


## anomanderis

it seems to work both ways. though for me, rain makes me feel good.
I haven't noticed this trend with rain that much, since it only started this winter. I was skeptical at first too, but when it started snowing for about the 10th consecutive time when i felt the _good feeling,_ i stopped believing in coincidence.

----------


## The Cusp

> I think you pretty much do it in the same way I do. For stuff to happen, I really need to _feel_ _good_. I don't know why, but maybe because this _feeling good_ makes me think about the term 'inner storm', that I tend to affect the weather when i'm in that state of consciousness. 
> Come to think about it... I've been unusually happy a few times recently and its been raining for 2 weeks.  Ah, my imagined connections....



One day I woke up and for no apparent reason, I felt better than I've ever felt before.  It was a super intense king of the world feeling, I felt like I could do anything.  That alone was an incredible experience.

But when I left for work, everyone at the bus stop was staring at me.  And when I got on the bus and sat near the back, every single person was turned around backwards in their seats and stated at me the whole time I was on the bus.  I could even see the driver looking at me in the mirror!  The people didn't even seem to be aware they were doing it, like they were mesmerized.  I felt too good to care and just let them soak it up. Nobody at work reacted to it and the feeling went away around 11:00.

Now I know what Jesus felt like.  The funny part is, at time that happened, I had hair past my shoulders and my beard (both brown) made me look very Jesus-like.  





> Was it you I had a talk with about this, before, Cusp? The whole "does a DC have guts if you can't see them" thing? In either case, it's important to remember that "awareness" has many levels, leading even into subconscious awareness (I'm not saying you disagree, I'm just adding to the context  ). So, that is to say, I'm not sure we have to actually see/hear/feel/etc something for it to exist in dreams. I believe that even a subconscious awareness - an activated schema that has not risen to the level of "conscious thought" - can affect a dream. 
> 
> I've always found the schema concept fascinating, and I believe that this is how dreams progress (and why they often do so in a seemingly erratic nature). But, for this to be the case, that would mean that schematic concepts that we are not yet _actively_ aware of still hold influence. 
> 
> If you are dreaming that you are sitting in your room, with the door closed, one might say that the living room doesn't exist if you're not actively aware of it. But, being in such a familiar setting, your subconscious _knows_ the kitchen is there, even if you're not thinking about it at the time. Does your mind already have some abstraction of the living room model created, ready to be thrown into the context of the dream, upon your walking out of the room? This would make sense, as with word schemas, the mind activates schemas for context even when the particular concept isn't being used.
> 
> For example: If someone says "Dream," the mind would probably activate schemas such as "Bed", "sleep", "night", "lucidity," "nightmare," "flight," etc. Anything that it could associate with "Dream." Even if you're not aware that these words are being gathered by your subconscious, and prepared to throw into the context of conversation, they are.
> 
> So, if the schemas that (I believe) conduct how dreams progress, then it's possible that just the most subtle trigger of a subconscious "living room" schema could create some sort of abstract model of how your mind will present your living room to you, whenever you decide to leave your room and walk into it.
> ...



I never properly thanked you for introducing me to the concept of schemata, which has been very useful.  I generally view it as an AI neural network model, but my attempt at explaining neurons and dendrites and weights didn't pan out too well.  It's like you mind is a vast forest full of twisting trails and paths.  The more use use certain paths, the more worked in they get and the easier they are to travel.  Your dreaming mind is more likely to travel well beaten paths.  

I still think nothing exists until you are experiencing it, or at least focusing on it in some manner.  These schemata already exist independently of the dream, they don't require any dreaming attention to sustain.  They are a result of everything we've experienced.  For dreaming purposes, I like to think of them almost as geographic locations with roads leading to new places.  

I don't always have control over which path I'll take, but I am free to choose which schemata I want to use for change.  You don't always have to go for pinpoint accuracy control, a general change of theme is good too.  Sometime I change themes several times just to find associations that are useful.

----------


## anomanderis

> One day I woke up and for no apparent reason, I felt better than I've ever felt before.  It was a super intense king of the world feeling, I felt like I could do anything.  That alone was an incredible experience.
> 
> But when I left for work, everyone at the bus stop was staring at me.  And when I got on the bus and sat near the back, every single person was turned around backwards in their seats and stated at me the whole time I was on the bus.  I could even see the driver looking at me in the mirror!  The people didn't even seem to be aware they were doing it, like they were mesmerized.  I felt too good to care and just let them soak it up. Nobody at work reacted to it and the feeling went away around 11:00.
> 
> Now I know what Jesus felt like.  The funny part is, at time that happened, I had hair past my shoulders and my beard (both brown) made me look very Jesus-like.



Hehe, :smiley: 
Yeah, that's happened to me too, though on a smaller scale. When I'm very happy, I just notice people looking at me and _keep_ looking at me.
I guess you could call the fact that almost always nobody will sit next to me in a bus (even if its packed) my own little miracles. Or maybe I just creep people out, dunno ::?:

----------


## Oneironaut Zero

> I never properly thanked you for introducing me to the concept of schemata, which has been very useful.



My pleasure.  ::cooler:: 





> For dreaming purposes, I like to think of them almost as geographic locations with roads leading to new places.



That's a very interesting analogy - and fitting, I believe. I see what you mean, though. The schema, being an idea or concept, doesn't necessarily have to have any sort of substance, even the minimal amount to exist in a dream. It does still bring into question just how aware of something we have to be, for it to exist in a dream, but I understand what you're saying, when it comes to just a simple schema not necessarily proving to be enough (though it's still in question! Heh).

----------


## The Cusp

*A Newb's Experience with Lucid Dreaming*
Using these rules for dream control requires a balance of attention.  This leaves only three outcomes for any newbie dreamer.  Achieve a balance, or tip the scale in one direction or the other.

*1. Balance:*  If a first time LDer begins to interact with his environment right away, then he inadvertently achieves balance as his awareness gets spread around the dream scene.  Things seem stable as long as they keep up a steady interaction with the dream.
*
2. Introversion:*  The dreams realizes they are dreaming and are so amazed, excited and thrilled by this fact that they focus all their attention on that thought alone.  What that implies, the realization of what's happening, what's possible, all these thoughts direct a sudden rush of your awareness inwards to deal with all these mental machinations, which creates a corresponding vacuum in the dream around them.  With no attention to sustain it's self, the dream collapses and the dreamer wakes up.

*3. Overkill:*  Realizing they are dreaming, the dreamer checks things out and something fantastic, bizarre or just plain interesting catches their eye.  They go in for a closer look and the directed increase in attention causes that element to grow out of control, demanding even more attention.  They get in too deep and don't know how to stop it.  The resulting confusion also leads to waking up, which is a form of the second outcome.


The second two are only pitfalls at the beginning.  With practice they become your main tools.  The reason it goes so badly at first is because people don't recognize what's happening.  It's like giving a loaded gun to a monkey.  The monkey doesn't recognize what the gun can do, what it was designed to do.  Yet it can still fire the gun, which will probably scare the living shit out of it at the very least!

----------


## seeker28

*Oneironaut* thank you for the input on the schema.  I've been thinking about a recent dream I had.  
I was on a school trip with some recurring DCs.  A totally new DC, named Owen was there.  He was from a country called Fubaria (hehehee) in Europe.  He had come to the USA after escaping the genocide going on over there.  He hung out with me and my dream buds.  He and I were affectionate, but I didn't all out molest him like I usually would have (I was horney).  When we kissed it was always a chaset closed mouth kiss.  Later I found out he had been raped.
I've been trying to figure out how I knew he'd been raped.  Or looking for evidence in my dream thinking that indicated I knew.  I think I must have known subconsciously and that is why I was so chaste with him.  Using the idea of schema I'm easily able to explain my actions.  In my mind "rape" and "genocide" are two words/concepts that are linked so closely they are nearly inseperable.

What do the rest of you think?

----------


## The Cusp

I think you're got it exactly right Seeker28.  That's a perfect example.  Fubaria sounds like it should be the name of a heavy metal band.

----------


## anomanderis

...or just because I ran into some alien scripture on the 7th floor of the apartment building, I went ahead to summon 2 _Others_ from the gate of Yog-Sothoth! 
In exchange for 2 pigs, but unluckily (or luckily, dunno) we forgot the final part of the summoning...

----------


## The Cusp

> Hehe,
> I guess you could call the fact that almost always nobody will sit next to me in a bus (even if its packed) my own little miracles. Or maybe I just creep people out, dunno



I do that as well.  I don't think it's about creeping people out, because I'm a very successful hitch hiker.

Here's a neat bus trick.   If you can sit by at least two pretty girls, then any other pretty girls that get on the bus after will cluster around you.

----------


## tommo

> Also, it has been said that there are nerves in the brain that can be stimulated by (surgical) hand, that can make you break down into tears, or laugh hysterically.



Yeh, it's called Deep Brain Stimulation, I saw it on a show about TS.  Basically they fire electrical impulses into I think either the Hypothalmus or another part of the brain for other illnesses besides TS.  On the show I watched the guy said he felt like he was lifting off the table as they stimulated one part of his Hypothalamus, cos' it's basically a guessing game/point and fire kinda thing.  So they just had to see which place worked to stop his ticks.  So yeh anyway I instantly was like, 'holy s&#37;^ that must have been instant relaxation' like paralysis/SP, I assumed they hit a place that controlled how relaxed he was and instantly he was just paralysed, that's how quick it was.  Imagine when they master this, WILD's for all, whenver we want! haha  (wishful thinking I know, but still, it's definately possible, just don't think the government would allow it.  But hey that's what the underground's for!)





> Hehe,
> Yeah, that's happened to me too, though on a smaller scale. When I'm very happy, I just notice people looking at me and _keep_ looking at me.
> I guess you could call the fact that almost always nobody will sit next to me in a bus (even if its packed) my own little miracles. Or maybe I just creep people out, dunno



Lol people never sit next to me either.  Unless it is absolutely PACKED on the train or something.  But always at school on the bus I could make people sit next to me or not.  If the girl was hot yeah, if it's some fat ugly sweaty guy, find another seat!  ::D: 

Oh and Cusp, that newbs dream thing, SPOT ON!

----------


## jarrick

I've got a few bits to throw in..
"everything in your dreams requires your attention" :I think it would be truer to say that everything you perceive requires your perception. It may be true that for an individual, when they're no longer aware of something (volentarily or not) it stops existing for them but you don't really know if everything in your dreams are to do with you. I'm not saying they're not but there's other theories too.. ie, foreign entities like in "the art of dreaming" (carlos casteneda). For those who don't know it, the basis is that other aware entities exist and to be aware of them and interact with them you have to be in the same reality as them. they can come into yours or vice versa but if you ignore them, you're affectivly taking yourself out of that reality and so they won't exist for you but conversely, if you fix yourself in that reality with all your awareness, they are as real as anything reality. That's a bit of a loose explanation but it's a possiblility not to be overlooked and ignored. 
  also, it's possible that dream elements are preformed and so do exist "outside the door": things happen in your dreams that you're not aware are going to happen and they're not always random or there'd be no sense whatsoever so the subconcious (or whatever does it) must be working it all out beforehand and preforming it in some way. Maybe.

----------


## jarrick

"The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on"
  This certainly seems to be true in some respects but there's some other things to it: have you noticed what happens if you stop and try and keep your focused attention on whatever's there? for me, it tends to change and can change into something completely different or unrelated or into nothing at all. it seems that the awareness is something that finds it harder to focus on one thing than on something that changes and seeing more detail in the object of attention and less in things around it is a change of attention and not nessecarily making your attention/awareness more powerful or stronger.

----------


## jarrick

strong emotions
   personally, I've found that emotions can be controlled by attention. I've discovered ways of placing my attention on certain emotions and they instantly are there (not thinking of happy thought but actually locating that feeling) so it is possible and I use it sometimes when my natural emotions are doing something I don't want but I've also discovered that what makes other emotions good or bad is the thoughts associated with them - I learnt a way to shut off thoughts and so the emotions are now all simply meaningless feelings, none any better than another. I'm not really sure how usefull it is, but it's interesting. The other thing to mention is that changing emotions is one thing and making emotions stronger is another - that requires frequent practice, like exercising your muscles.

   good posts, by the way - and I'm not poopoooing any of it, just adding my mustard.

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## The Cusp

> I'm not saying they're not but there's other theories too.. ie, foreign entities like in "the art of dreaming" (carlos casteneda)



Those would be the exception to the rule, as well as any form of shared dreaming.  Learning to recognize and use your own elements should make it easier to recognize any foreign elements.





> "The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on"
>    have you noticed what happens if you stop and try and keep your focused attention on whatever's there? for me, it tends to change and can change into something completely different or unrelated or into nothing at all.



That's what I based the second rule on.  The act of focusing your attention is the main creative force in dreams.  It's just not always so focused and directed, so it's effects are not always so obvious.  

But those changes are not unrelated, they follow schemata or archetypal models.  These elements of change seem random, but they can be classed together because they have some relation to the object you are focused on.  Some things or concepts can have thousands of related associations that may seem random, but they all have the root element in common.

Most of the time I'm unable to choose which of these associations will rear it's head, but I do feel that I'm able to narrow the choices somewhat.

Just try it.  You'll see that the changes that come from focusing on a teddy bear are quite different than those that come from focusing on a severed head.  Even if you can't predict the exact change, you can still have a pretty good idea of what to expect.  Knowing what to pay attention to and what to ignore, and not getting distracted by every shiny object can go a long way in providing dream control.

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## jarrick

> Just try it.  You'll see that the changes that come from focusing on a teddy bear are quite different than those that come from focusing on a severed head.  Even if you can't predict the exact change, you can still have a pretty good idea of what to expect.  Knowing what to pay attention to and what to ignore, and not getting distracted by every shiny object can go a long way in providing dream control.



I'll give that a go - it never occured to me they maybe related. it could be possible to map every link between memories in the brain but that would take forever - but i wonder if concentrating on an object and letting it change into it's associated items would strengthen your memory connnections.

----------


## The Cusp

> -but i wonder if concentrating on an object and letting it change into it's associated items would strengthen your memory connnections.



Most likely.  In a neural networking model, every time one of these paths gets used, it gains what they call "weight".  The more weight these pathways have, the more likely they are to get used.

But the true measure of the strength of a connection is the strength of the emotions you were experiencing when those memories were formed.  THanks to the part of the brain called the hippocampus, which affects memory, learning and emotion, stronger memories are formed in response to strong emotions.  

These emotionally charged memories being the strongest, surface first in dreams.  I need to revise the third rule to reflect that.

----------


## phonix

> OK, I finally watched The Secret.  I hadn't before now because I felt I knew what it was about, but I never realized how close it is to my dream theory.  A lot of it echoes what I've been trying to say.  They beat me to the punch! 
> 
> Still, I'd like to scratch a little deeper than that, or at least approach it from another angle.  In this case dreaming.



Heya phonix here from the secret thread. Good article simlar to the law of attraction, but can't ou see that its bascally saying to use the law of attraction but in a more dreaming way. However, you gave me an idea and I must say thank you for this. Emotions are stronger in a dream I thought I was the only one who noticed that so I appald you on that  ::D: 

I'm going to use lucid dreaming to stimulate the feelings of having it now because, they are more powerful and I can remember how I felt after a lucid dream.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

Good day  ::bowdown::

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## tommo

Jarrick - I think it would be truer to say that everything you perceive requires your perception.

Basically, wtf?  That's like saying everything you see requires your sight.  It's just basically redundant and it has nothing to do with attention anyway.  It's a totally different thing, so you can't say that attention thing is wrong and the perception thing is right, it's like saying algebra is wrong because calculus is right.  ::shock:: 

Also yeah as you make connections more and more you make them stronger, it's how you learn that a piano is a piano and your dog is your dog.  You hear those words more around the object so you realise that it must be a piano. etc.

As for figuring out all the connections, I think that would be impossible; too many connections, too many things.  Plus you make new connections every day so it would be impossible to keep up.

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## seeker28

> But those changes are not unrelated, they follow schemata or archetypal models. * These elements of change seem random, but they can be classed together because they have some relation to the object you are focused on.*  Some things or concepts can have thousands of related associations that may seem random, but they all have the root element in common.



I had a dream last night that I think illustrates this wonderfully.  I was in a lucid dream involving being on vacation with my family. I had just been flying up and grabbing the power lines to illustrate to the family DCs that I can't die in a dream.  I briefly felt *fear* as an uncomfortable sharp prickling *pain* ran through my body.  However I easily banished the sensation.  When I looked up I noticed the *clouds*.  They were fluffy and the sky was a bright blue.  But as I watched they turned gray and orange, the colors that precede a *tornado* in my dreams. I instantly became afraid for my family.  I realized my fear could cause the tornado to materialize.  So I glanced at some *trees* as I tried to calm myself.  I noticed a weird *shadow*.  It was shaped like a *Tyranasasaurus Rex*!  The image of my family fleeing before it flashed briefly in my mind.  I realized I was in an emotional loop.  So I closed my eyes, took a deep breath, and instead became happy and excited about levitating my dad.

I suspect that this list of emotions, sensations, and things are all neurally linked in my brain.  Like playing that game where you start with a random word and then make random associations..

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## Valwen

> That's quite the inconsistency we have here, in that semi-lucids seem to offer better control than full lucids.  Since it's awareness of being in a dream that lends you control, it would be reasonable to assume that the better the awareness, the better the control.  That just doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> My only explanation is that we (myself included) are scatter brained victims of the digital age.   Technology has conditioned us to the point where we can barely focus on anything for any length of time.  
> 
> That and our modern culture has no place for the ancient traditions of meditation and disciplines of the mind.  The majority of religions have time tested methods and techniques to school and train the mind.
> 
> To counteract this seeming lack of control, I would advise some form of meditation of mental training.  I'd recommend reading Carlos Castaneda's books, as they deal predominantly with attention.  But any type of meditative practice would be sure to help.



Lucidity does not necessarily mean control. Lots of people have no control in their LDs and I know that I can do some amazing stuff while non-lucid. I suspect this discrepancy arises because when you're "semi-lucid", whatever that may mean, you probably naturally control the environment whereas you overthink when you're fully lucid.






> Heya phonix here from the secret thread. Good article simlar to the law of attraction, but can't ou see that its bascally saying to use the law of attraction but in a more dreaming way.



Dumbass, "can't ou see" that he's looking for something much deeper, something that explains your stupid law of attraction?

----------


## tommo

I agree with your last comment valwen but settle down a bit.  And If you had read the thread you would know what we mean by semi-lucid.

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## The Cusp

> Basically, wtf?  That's like saying everything you see requires your sight.  It's just basically redundant and it has nothing to do with attention anyway.  It's a totally different thing, so you can't say that attention thing is wrong and the perception thing is right, it's like saying algebra is wrong because calculus is right.



I don't follow what you're trying to say at all.  In a dream you're not using your real eyes to see.  

We know through science that matter exists both as a wave form and as a singularity (particles).  Recent advances in quantum mechanics tell us the act of observing these wave forms is what collapses them into singularities.  This would suggest there is something "magical" about the act of perception.

----------


## jarrick

> Jarrick - I think it would be truer to say that everything you perceive requires your perception.
> 
> Basically, wtf?  That's like saying everything you see requires your sight.  It's just basically redundant and it has nothing to do with attention anyway.  It's a totally different thing, so you can't say that attention thing is wrong and the perception thing is right, it's like saying algebra is wrong because calculus is right.



what i meant by that is that when the cusp said "everything in your dreams requires your attention" is basicly the same as saying that everything you perceive requires your perception.  after all, your attention is just the focus point (to whatever degree) of perception. one is just a simplified version of the other but like the cusp said, it is blindingly obvious. But maybe we've got different interpretations of what the words mean for us.

----------


## jarrick

> That's quite the inconsistency we have here, in that semi-lucids seem to offer better control than full lucids.  Since it's awareness of being in a dream that lends you control, it would be reasonable to assume that the better the awareness, the better the control.  That just doesn't seem to be the case.



I wonder if detatchment has anything to do with this. I find that the more lucid I am, the more i'm "in my body" and the more real everything seems so maybe it's not so easy to control as you need more convincing that it's not real whereas when you're just aware you're dreaming, you're more detatched and can look at it from from an outside perspective - like in real life. dunno..
do you find that you percieve more (emotions, objects, sences etc..) when you're fully lucid or when you're semi-lucid? I know that in some scary dreams I'll have an abundance of fear and wake up thinking it was really vivid but the total of peception may have been less than that of a fully lucid dream where I'm aware of a much wider spectrum of things and if that's the case then controlling it all might be harder simply because you have to so more imagining. it would be like trying to play a modern pc game with a crappy graphics card.

----------


## anomanderis

I definitely perceive more when I'm fully lucid.

----------


## The Cusp

> do you find that you percieve more (emotions, objects, sences etc..) when you're fully lucid or when you're semi-lucid?



I don't think I perceive more in one state or the other, my perception is just distributed differently in a full lucid than it is in a semi lucid.  In a semi lucid, I take in more of the dream.  In a full lucid, I have more of an inward focus while I think about the implications of what I'm doing.  I still have the same sum total of perception, but a greater portion of it is directed inwards during full lucidity.

----------


## anomanderis

> I don't think I perceive more in one state or the other, my perception is just distributed differently in a full lucid than it is in a semi lucid.  In a semi lucid, I take in more of the dream.  In a full lucid, I have more of an inward focus while I think about the implications of what I'm doing.  I still have the same sum total of perception, but a greater portion of it is directed inwards during full lucidity.



So you believe that at all times we are "maxing out" our perception, just that the distribution is different?

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## jarrick

I'd say, not at all times - there are times when you're bearly aware - though it could be that your subconcious is "maxed out" the whole time but our concious awareness is more variable (but that's just a wild guess). But when you're lucid or semi lucid, your concious mind could well be maxed out but on different things (like the cusp just said) but what I'm thinking is maybe the complexity of control is different; when you're semi-lucid, it's like you're sitting in the directors chair and so it's a lot easier to control as your subconcious is doing a lot of the leg-work but when you're fully lucid, the concious mind has to do everything and that's a lot of multi-tasking. 
  When I'm fully lucid, I find it easier to make something appear if i will it into existance out of sight and then look round to see it or go into a room and it's there whereas making it appear infront of me or in my hands is a lot more effort so maybe I'm employing the subconcious more when i make it appear off-stage.

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## The Cusp

> So you believe that at all times we are "maxing out" our perception, just that the distribution is different?



I can't really say for sure at the moment, I need to experiment with that more.  Yet another thing to add to my research list.

----------


## tommo

Ok I think we just have a different meaning for the word perception.  And Cusp I wasn't saying the sight thing as any point just an analogy.

I think that awareness part is true; that it takes more of your attention in a full lucid because your focusing more on everything.
Cusp, you said that 'I don't think I perceive more in one state or the other, my perception is just distributed differently in a full lucid than it is in a semi lucid.'
That kind of contradicts the rule that everything you dream requires your attention.  If you aren't focusing on something as much it isn't going to be as detailed.  I don't know if that made sense, tired again lol.

So basically, in a semi-lucid everything is not as real, right?
In a full-lucid everything is more real thus taking more attention to keep everything the same.  Because your taking into account feelings, senses, etc.
Although in a semi-lucid it's more attention from your sub-conscious than it is from your conscious.  Ok I just realised we covered that already.

I agree with the nightmare thing.  They are always more real than dreams with less strong emotions.  Dreams where I fall in love or something are even more memorable than nightmares though I think.

Anyway sorry for the rambling, gotta get on here earlier so I can make sense.

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## The Cusp

> So basically, in a semi-lucid everything is not as real, right?



No, just the opposite.  Full lucidity by definition requires more focus on your thoughts, most notably the "Holy crap, I'm lucid!" thought.  This leaves less attention to sustain your surroundings.

In a semi-lucid, more attention is focused on interacting with the dream, which makes it more real.

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## The Cusp

I just realized a little something my brother and I do could provide a practical engineering project using those rules that anyone reading this could help me with.  The main problem with understanding these rules in action is that they can be pretty abstract.  Here we will try to create something very small and simple, with a very clear and simple intent.  Plus we'll limit ourselves to using only words to accomplish it.

*Background*
Now my family has a bit of a history for bullshitting.  My brother and I like to make up interesting little factoids that are complete fabrications, and tell it to someone.  First of all, it's funny getting someone to believe something stupid, but it's even better when they repeat it and get called for being so completely wrong.

My brother inadvertently set a new standard when one of his bullshit fabrications caught on and spread.  He actually had something he made up on the spur of the moment repeated to him by someone he didn't know in a completely different city from where he first told it.

I'm sure every one of you has heard the rumor about the Don't worry be happy guy committing suicide, or the one about Richard Geir and the gerbil.  Those may sound stupid and immature, but what those simple rumors accomplished was awe inspiring.  They spread around the globe like an infectious disease with a speed that rivaled the internet.  Just think of how many perverted gerbil conversations you've had to suffer through as a result of that one.

Just a handful of words can have far reaching consequences.  In that light, it's easy to see where the classical portrayal of wizards and scorcerors performing acts of magic by reciting magic words or incantations might have come from.   

*
Applying the Rules*
*1. Every thing requires your attention to exist*
-This is a brilliant example of the first rule in action.  Make no mistake about it, we are creating something from nothing here, and the goal is to keep it alive through attention. A lot of people have trouble understanding how this works, and I hope these rumors will clarify things. 

These rumors sustain themselves through the attention people give them.  If it's a lame rumor that nobody cares about, it will soon be forgotten and cease to exist.  But if the rumor is good, it takes on a life of it's own, it becomes something quite real and almost tangible.

The person sustaining the existence of these rumors needn't consciously focused on them to keep them going.  They reside somewhere in the mind, but remain active.  This is a great analogy of how we carry over residual stuff from waking life that influences our dreams.
_
2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on._
-This rule provides the building blocks for creation.  There are maybe three elements tops in these rumors.  They extremely simple.  But the right combination of a very few element creates an irresistible hook.

Just look in the Dream Gallery section of this forum (http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...splay.php?f=60), and you'll see my dream entitled "Mormon Sex Cult" has over 5000 views.  Not to brag, but that blows away any other dream posted there by leaps and bounds.  Why?  It's the right combination of elements.  Of course sex is always a good one, but combined with Mormon and Cult, it's even more alluring. 
_
3.  Emotions strengthen memory and flavor those memories accordingly._ (Still trying to rework that rule to better summarize what's happening.  I'm not happy with that rendition, but it will do for now)
-Emotions can be considered the power source for this project, which keep the rumor going.  Ideally we want something that people are strongly polarized either for or against.  Something that provides a strong sense of shock or surprise.  Something deliciously captivating.  



I've been trying to write this for two weeks now.  I'm not happy with how it turned out, but I still think it gets the point across, so I'm just going to post it and move on.  

Ideally I want a rumor that will rival those two I mentioned, that will spread across the globe and get back to my brother so I can gloat.  We could also do it on a smaller scale withing the DV community.  I was going to suggest something about Asher, but he's been quick to wield the ban axe these days, and I don't want to get booted just yet.  I'm just using him as an example.

They way these rumor implant and sustain themselves in the back of your mind is the kind of thing you want to accomplish with the desire for lucid dreaming.  You want to turn it into something real that takes on a life of it's own.  A site like this helps amplify that reality due to the number of people in agreement on lucid dreaming.

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## Niddiboy

cusp... probably the most intersting thread i have ever read on my entire time on dream views.

My mind, before reading this has been going to and fro on the subject of awareness and schemas and how these affect our levels of lucidty and control.

After reading the bible of lucid dreaming "exploring the world of lucid dreaming" by Laberge, and more importantly his theories on schemas,  i was confused as to how we could create such scenes depending on our own individual life experiences, but after reading your post about the fact that nothing exits if we are not aware of it (nice example of Schrödinger's cat) would account for the fact i have been very aware that when i try to see a larger view in my lucid dreams as such instead of things i am aware of i tend to lose lucidty.

i am now beginning to find a way of making dreamscaping a much easier task. I came accross a thread a few months ago where a method of lucid dream induction was described in realtion to mediation and "mental mapping" whereby we walk into a room, and as we exit it we reconstruct as much of the room as possible. I think that by putting this into better practice, our awareness in dreams can be greatly increased through increased awareness.

you post has really excited me again about lucid dreaming.

cheers  ::D:

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## tommo

I think the 3rd part is spot on, no need to change it.

That post about rumours reminds me of this joke kinda thing I made up one day and told my brother in like grade one or prep or something and it spread around the whole school and this random grade 6'er told it to me.  Then I'm like hey I made that up, and he's like BS etc etc.  No one ever believes you lol!
I also started that 'Hey (insert name, say jack) jack, jack JACK JACK!!!! hey JACK.' "WHAT!?!?" "nothing"
LOL although I'm sure other people thought of that before because I've heard almost EVERYONE say it.  But I said that in like grade 2 or something just to annoy my mum.  Probably just one of those 'inventing an existing thing' things.

BTW I'd never heard of richard gere thing but had heard of the gerbil thing and never heard of the Bobby Mcferrin thing either, had to look it up.  I thought Bob Marley wrote that song! lol

It would be funny if LD'ing was just a rumour and we all really just dreamed that we were having an LD.

Oh yeh and I don't know if it was this forum or the other one I go on, but the mods all played a prank where they pretended the forums had been hijacked and none of their accounts worked lol.  Panic was spread.  It all started from one little joke and then someone took it seriously and other people saw that post and posted and then people saw their posts etc.  So the mods decided to make it 'real'.

EDIT: Oh and I was thinking....
Since emotions make strong connection in your brain....
I've realised that whenever I think about sex before sleeping I seem to have a dream about sex, the strong emotions are obviously exacerbated by horniness.  So if you could have the same strong emotions about Ld'ing then you could have an LD every night.  The problem is there is no natural chemical that makes you excited about an LD.  So I'm thinking, somehow you could get the connections crossed between horniness and Ld'ing.  Just like people with weird sex obsessions get the wires crossed between say, shoving gerbils up their ass and sexual pleasure (to keep on topic)  ::D:  HAHA

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## Valwen

What gerbil rumor?

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## The Cusp

> It would be funny if LD'ing was just a rumour and we all really just dreamed that we were having an LD.



Actually, most people who claim to be insomniacs, when monitored under laboratory conditions, actually sleep well most of the night.  These people will argue they didn't get a wink of sleep all night until confronted with video footage of them sleeping soundly.  What they concluded from this was that the people were dreaming that they were tossing and turning in bed all night.  Just one long crappy false awakening.





> What gerbil rumor?



Allow me to refer you to the tale of Lemmywinks the Gerbil King.  And remember you asked for it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4iebOTJHTk

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## Valwen

Did you make up the whole thing or just the putting rodents up your ass part? Some kid at my school called that feltching or something like that. Pretty cool that you found your rumors spread around the world, but it could just be that someone else made them up too.

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## anomanderis

> Did you make up the whole thing or just the putting rodents up your ass part? Some kid at my school called that feltching or something like that. Pretty cool that you found your rumors spread around the world, but it could just be that someone else made them up too.



The term is fletching, but it does not not mean gerbils up the ass...
(Sorry for the OT)

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## The Cusp

OK, enough about the gerbils.

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## ninja9578

> OK, enough about the gerbils.



Agreed.

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## tommo

lol.
Neway that insomnia thing was that for real insomniacs or just people who think they are?
Coz I'm almost 100% sure it's a real condition and you would only sleep seconds or minutes every night but you don't dream so it's like just a blink.

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## The Cusp

> lol.
> Neway that insomnia thing was that for real insomniacs or just people who think they are?
> Coz I'm almost 100% sure it's a real condition and you would only sleep seconds or minutes every night but you don't dream so it's like just a blink.



Insomnia is a real condition.  And these were real insomniacs who were studied in the lab.  Sure they spent a good deal of time tossing and turning, but they did still sleep, even though they would tell you they didn't.  These people were literally shocked to see video of themselves snoring away.

Sorry no link for that, I got it from a book.

I'd say that they are putting too much focus or attention on their inability to sleep or restlessness, and the second rule fills in the details of a restless night, be it in RL or through a FA type scenario.  Too much attention on any one thing is unhealthy

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## The Cusp

::shock::  ::shock::  ::shock:: * The Basics:  Vision*  ::shock::  ::shock::  ::shock:: 

Using these rules for dream control boils down to a matter of awareness or  attention.  To be precise, where and how intently you have that attention or awareness focused.  What awareness is exactly, no one can really say.  It's an intangible process we use so often we take it for granted.  For the moment, we only need concern ourselves with how awareness works.

Humans have 5 senses with which to perceive the world around them, but we rely most heavily on our sense of sight.  What this means is that sight is our primary tool through which we are aware of what is going on around us.  Or to put it another way, our main means of becoming aware of our surroundings.   This makes vision our main weapon for deploying awareness in dreams.

*Be careful what you look at...*
Simply looking is probably the best and easiest method of dream control.  This is both a curse and a blessing.  What is so great about it is that it's such an easy thing to do.  The downside is that we are almost always looking at something in our dreams.  

This type of dream control doesn't just turn it's self on when we want or need it, it's always in play.  And there is so much to look at, so much to see and take in.  So many wondrous or terrifying sight, you awareness can hardly contain it's self.  It jumps around from this to that, the whole while unaware of the consequences it's having on the dream.  That is why dreams _seem_ random.  

In fact you _need_ to look in order to interact with the dream and keep it stable.  The trick is to learn to selectively choose what to look at.  It's quite easy to lose control, some things you just can't help but look at.  But we don't need to dwell on those things.  Just a quick glance to asses and then move on until you come upon something you would like to expand on.  Then you can dwell on it, examine it more closely.  But if you start examining every little thing, things quickly get out of hand.

In Castaneda's books, the main technique Don Juan made him practice was just glancing at objects in dreams.  I've been rereading those books for over 15 years and never understood what that was about until tonight.  *Just glancing is the best way to "travel" in a dream without disturbing things too much.* 

When you glance lingers too long, something happens, a change that you can actually _feel_.  It almost feels like two magnets locking together.  That feeling can grow in varying degrees of intensity along with your increased focus on that object. 

*Watch out for* dream elements that ensnare you attention and almost compel you to look closer.  Dreams are full of them, they lurk around every corner!  Again I cite the example of a tooth dream gone horribly wrong.  At first you may just want to let it happen and watch how the changes come.  Once you recognize what is happening, it will be easier to avoid such snares in the future, however horrifying or beautiful they may be.

*Tunnel Vision*
I need to work on my glancing, but so far I've gotten really good at zooming in with my vision on a single thing, blocking out everything else.  Literal tunnel vision.  This is the best for extreme changes related to that element.  You can keep going deeper and deeper into the detail, or pull back and see how your surroundings have changed in relation to what you were just staring at.  I recommend going back and forth several times to see exactly what and how drastic the changes were.  

It's really hard to explain how these changes take place, you have to experience it for your self.  The changes that occur as a result of Tunnel Vision may be too drastic to qualify as control, but it sure is fun.  It's more like controlling which water slide you want to throw yourself down.  



I've also started working on focusing on multiple objects the last couple of weeks, hopefully glancing will help with that.  I had discovered a new vision technique last night that I was experimenting with in a lucid, but I can't quite make sense of what I was doing while awake.  It had a rolling feel to it, but that just makes no sense...  I'll figure it out eventually.

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## anomanderis

I've found that when I become lucid and my sight moves from object to object, I will lose lucidity rather quickly. I have to look at everything very slowly and always keep something in focus for my lucidity to stabilize. But I've only got it to stabilize a few times...
This morning I tried to do that as well, but I guess my awareness was also on the DC that I was solacing by hugging her. I focused on a point in my surrounding, but after some seconds I could sense the dream blurring and then my vision started greying out.

Btw, how do you see the eyes of DCs in your dreams? do they look real? This morning was the first time that I actually saw a DC whose eyes looked real to me, there was no blankness or emptyness that had always been in their eyes.

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## The Cusp

> Btw, how do you see the eyes of DCs in your dreams? do they look real? This morning was the first time that I actually saw a DC whose eyes looked real to me, there was no blankness or emptyness that had always been in their eyes.



I've never noticed anything out of the ordinary about the eyes of my DCs.  My zombies usually have a blank empty look in their eyes, but that's to be expected.

Sounds like that would be a good dream sign for you, if you can learn to recognize it.





> I've found that when I become lucid and my sight moves from object to object, I will lose lucidity rather quickly. I have to look at everything very slowly and always keep something in focus for my lucidity to stabilize. But I've only got it to stabilize a few times...
> This morning I tried to do that as well, but I guess my awareness was also on the DC that I was solacing by hugging her. I focused on a point in my surrounding, but after some seconds I could sense the dream blurring and then my vision started greying out.



Sounds like you were looking at too many things before you were ready for it.

The exercise Castaneda was practicing consisted of choosing a starting anchor point.  Starting from there, he would glance at a few objects, then return to the starting point and repeat the process.  Every time he would try to glance at more and more objects before returning to his starting point.  I don't even think it would be possible to come up with a better method to practice glancing.  

Sounds like you were looking at too many things before you were ready for it.

----------


## Vortex

> In Castaneda's books, the main technique Don Juan made him practice was just glancing at objects in dreams.  I've been rereading those books for over 15 years and never understood what that was about until tonight.  *Just glancing is the best way to "travel" in a dream without disturbing things too much.* 
> 
> When you glance lingers too long, something happens, a change that you can actually _feel_.  It almost feels like two magnets locking together.  That feeling can grow in varying degrees of intensity along with your increased focus on that object.



Hi Cusp,
If I remember correctly, DJ tells him to look in short glances because it fixes the scene by fixating the assemblage point. 
V.

----------


## anomanderis

> Sounds like you were looking at too many things before you were ready for it.



That means that the speed i look with while i am awake is much too fast for when i am lucid, i literally have to move my point of focus a centimeter at a time to not lose focus of the entire dreamscape.

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## The Cusp

> That means that the speed i look with while i am awake is much too fast for when i am lucid, i literally have to move my point of focus a centimeter at a time to not lose focus of the entire dreamscape.



Nothing wrong with focusing on the entire dreamscape.  Peripheral vision works wonders for stability.  It's only when focusing on individual items you have to be careful.

----------


## tommo

I seem to have no problems with looking at one object for a long time, I once looked at a leaf for about 5-10 minutes.  Although I'm not insanely experienced with LD's by any means, I don't seem to lose lucidity by looking at one thing.

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## anomanderis

For me too, looking at things does not make them change. I don't really recall doing this much, but i definitely know that they don't change like that.
maybe its connected with how our minds work: when i _look_ at things, my mind usually falls very quiet. When i see, i see things as they are, not how i think they should be.

----------


## Vortex

It's not the things I'm looking at that change, it's the stuff I'm not.

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## The Cusp

> It's not the things I'm looking at that change, it's the stuff I'm not.



That's exactly right!  Thank you, I rely on these comments to see what needs to be explained further.  That's an important distinction I seem to have overlooked.

The changes that occur in the things you are not looking at are directly related to the thing that you are looking at.  It's not what you are looking at that changes.

I'll try to better illustrate this point with zombies, werewolves and vampires next.

----------


## anomanderis

How does everyone create their dreamscape when they are in 'limbo'? When I'm already inside a dream, I usually use the 'beyond that door' or 'behind that corner' method; when I am DEILDing (basically chaining) I use VILD. The first time I used VILD, i had the most amazing dream entry that i have ever experienced: i imagined a scene and the colours started slowly trickling/flowing in in little spiral vortexes that merged into the dreamscape.

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## The Cusp

> How does everyone create their dreamscape when they are in 'limbo'? When I'm already inside a dream, I usually use the 'beyond that door' or 'behind that corner' method; when I am DEILDing (basically chaining) I use VILD. The first time I used VILD, i had the most amazing dream entry that i have ever experienced: i imagined a scene and the colours started slowly trickling/flowing in in little spiral vortexes that merged into the dreamscape.



I would assume it's a result of whatever lingering schemata are still active in you mind.  But to me the spiral vortexes seem to be very important in those kinds of scenarios.  So many people dream about sacred geometry without knowing what it is.  And what it is is the building blocks of all creation, but I don't have enough understanding of that subject to really explain it.



*The Origins of Zombies, Werewolves and Vampire*

Without a doubt, the second rule is the most influential in shaping our dreams, and also the easiest to observe.

_2.The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on._

So let's take a closer look at the elements that birth these creatures in our dreams.  The following examples are from dreams that didn't start out with these creatures all ready in them.  I also excluded lucids, because the control afforded by lucidity distracts from the natural formation of elements we are trying to observe here
*
Vampires*
While going through the DJs, I noticed that the main element that causes Vampire to appear in dreams is the classic spooky old mansion or castle.  Everyone knows that's where vampires live.  If you happen to spot one of these mansions, odds are, you're going to have vampires to deal with.  

 ...I'm now near a castle and have become "NeAvO the vampire slayer"...
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...&postcount=594

I'm in this kind of castle/mansion... and confronting this woman who was actually some kind of supernatural being (vampire?)
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...&postcount=543

...We had to go in this dark, spooky house...a strange woman in there who summoned a vampire
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...2&postcount=25

..all the houses were early 1900’s and very big...I kept thinking I’m not a vampire...
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...41&postcount=1

...because he was 230 years old.That confused me for a moment until I realized that *CB* was actually a *vampire*.
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...&postcount=127

Obviously there are plenty more reasons to dream of vampires, books you read, games you play, halloween, but it all boils down to the same thing.  Focusing on something that has a strong association with vamps, even if it's carried over from the waking world rather than something in your dream.   Many dream vampires have a sexual nature, especially for women, and have quite different triggers. I can't go into every possible scenario because they are endless, and I'd be entering into the realm of psychology.  

Death, corpses, blood, all these are common triggers as well, and can have a cumulative effect.  It needn't be just one element like the mansion/castle, those just happen to be very clear examples.

*
Werewolves
*Werewolves are interesting because they seem to reflect a beastial part of ourselves.  They have fewer concrete association other that full moons and creepy woods at night, and their presence is most often triggered by strong emotions, namely anger and rage.  A good fight or chase will often bring out the werewolves!  They are good examples of the third rule in action.

_3. Strong emotions flavor everything much like viewing things through a colored lense._


 ...They pull out a knife with a folding blade... somethings chasing me (werewolf or terminator??)...
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...40&postcount=2

...The Werewolf guy was the most prominent. He was chasing us through the woods...
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...postcount=1073

...As I viciously beat the old fucker, the people in the grocery store begin to get *violent* themselves....The infectious disease that is spreading is *lycanthropy*!  ...
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...postcount=1081
*That one's mine.  Note how my rages completely changed how the DCs were acting.

...People *panic* near night...many people at the windows and on balconies, *panicking*...Just then I see the werewolf...
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...&postcount=350

...I darted into the trees...so I ran past and kept going...It turns out that he was a werewolf!  I was very scared
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...1&postcount=51

...some guy is messing with me or something, and I transformed into a werewolf, and started biting his arm uncontrollably...
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...&postcount=101


I only concentrated on emotional werewolf creation in those examples, but there are plenty that follow the second rule as well.  The main triggers being scary movies, video games, and halloween.  Or of course the dark spooky woods at night like this one...

...I'm up at the cabin with my mom and step dad. I'm outside, it's night, and I have a sword. I'm out near the front of the property, when I'm attacked by a werewolf...
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...postcount=1055


*Zombies*
Zombies are actually too big of an area to get into right now.  It's going to take a bit more time that I have tonight to go through the countless examples of zombie dreams, but I think Vampires and Werewolves get the point across.


After writing this up, any guesses on what I'm likely to dream about tonight?

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## anomanderis

I've had vampires and werewolves only once, i think, but zombies make an appearance quite often, for some reason.
One of the most interesting experiences I've had was when I was zombified. It almost felt like that time, when my entire body was ripped apart atom by atom, only slightly more violin-ish (i know that makes no sense  :wink2:  )

I had a lot of dream re-entrys today (Oh, happy day!) and once I could even stabilize it long enough to look at something for like 5 seconds  :smiley:  : the object in question, i can't really recall what it was, didn't change at all.

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## tommo

Hm, never dreamt about zombies, vampires or werewolves that I can remember.

Anyway um I think things change when you are looking at them, but just not always.  I mean, I described that mush room thing how it kept getting more and more bugs over it, but also the leaf didn't change at all, besides getting more detail to it.  In that dream I was trying to see how much detail I could get, in the other one I wasn't really trying to get anything out of looking at the mushroom, just looking at it.  But in neither of them did the dreamscape change at all and I didn't lose lucidity either.  Just putting that out there.

I thought of something today that could be another rule but now I've forgotten, I'll edit this post later if I remember.  It had something to do with anchors, like while you're doing WILD.

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## The Cusp

> Hm, never dreamt about zombies, vampires or werewolves that I can remember.
> 
>  I described that mush room thing how it kept getting more and more bugs over it, but also the leaf didn't change at all, besides getting more detail to it.



You got extra detail in the leaf.  But between the boring old mushroom and the crawling insects, which of the two do you think are more likely to capture your attention?  Obviously the insects, and that's why they kept multiplying.  If you really want to see the changes, you really have to latch onto it with your attention.  Try to recreate tunnel vision.






> I thought of something today that could be another rule but now I've forgotten, I'll edit this post later if I remember.  It had something to do with anchors, like while you're doing WILD.



Anchors sound like a good idea.  What were you thinking?

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## tommo

Well the mushroom captured my attention first because it was rather large but then I guess the bugs held my attention on it.

Honestly I can't remember what I was thinking I'll try to remember.

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## The Cusp

The time has come to reveal where I learned of these dreaming rules, and at the same time to throw any credibility this thread might have had right out the window.
*
Secret Origins:  Enter the Night Stalkers.*

It all started with the infamous Night Stalker/Dream Walker thread.http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=37621

That thread was about people who supposedly enter other people's dreams and torment them.  I like to keep an open mind, and was willing to at least consider the possibility.  If there were people capable of such things, then I reasoned that DV would be a good place for them to find targets.  Many people, including myself, keep detailed dream journals on this site.  I figured the DJs would allow any of these Night Stalkers to read about their visits afterwards.

Being a LDer with many years of experience, I arrogantly assumed I would be able to handle any such visitors with ease.  So I put out an open challenge to any of these "Night Stalkers" that might be lurking the forums in the hopes being targeted.  I was really cocky about it, repeatedly calling them out, calling them names.

Before very long, it appeared I had gotten what I had asked for.  I still didn't really beleive it at first, and figured those dreams were self induced.  But the thing was, I was consistently getting my ass kicked in those dreams, night after night.  This was odd, because I rarely lose a dream fight, especially when I'm lucid.  But to get my butt whooped almost every single night was unprecedented in my dreaming.

It was a perplexing situation, because I considered my LD skills to be superb, especially when it comes to smashing things.  But these opponents in my dreams could take anything I threw at them, which was starting to frustrate me.  I started going over those dreams in an attempt to find out what I was doing wrong, or what I could do differently to turn things around.  My best lucid tricks were totally ineffective. 
*
Epiphany*
These dreams continued night after night, with me trying to defeat these people and having no luck.  As the dreams progressed, I began to notice how these opponents were able to defeat me.  That's when I saw that we _weren't playing by the same rules_.  I began to watch what it was they were doing to me, or rather how they were doing it, and I began to emulate them.

That's when things started to turn around for me, and I started win dream battles again.

*The Difference*
The problem I was having before was that I was attacking them directly, while these so called Night Stalkers were attacking me inderectly.  In fact, I had mistaken their attacks as thier main weapon, but it turns out their true weapon was how they manipulated my attention.  The attacks were just an incedental result.

Now a lot of people say that since it's your dream, anyone who enters it can't hurt you.  And this is true.  But what they can do is use your dream against you.  

I was just flat out attacking, but these NS would build up their attacks with an almost theatrical flare.  Instead of just letting loose with an energy blast like I would, they would hold the charge, letting it fill my senses in a manner that captivated my attention.  Being so focused on what they were doing, it became part of my dream, and thus real for me.  My direct attacks were to easy for them to ignore, and thus had no power over them.

As I got better at thier style of combat, they would actually compliment me on maneuvers I would make.  Winning these dream fights all came down to coming up with innovative ways to capture you opponent's attention.

After getting the hang of this, the resulting dreams I had were indescribible, yet thrilling beyond words.  

*The Players*
There were the same two people that kept showing up and attacking  me in this manner.  I call them Gimpy and the ThumbMaster.  They each had their own unique styles which helped to tell them apart.

*ThumbMaste*r:  This guy's main technique was assuming the role of torture interrogator.  He would constantly demand answers to inane questions that had nothing to do with anything.  In retrospect, it wasn't the questions that were important, but rather the tone they set.  By demanding questions of me (he wouldn't even wait for an answer before asking his next question), it created an interrogation setting in my mind.  Just by asking questions, he was able to create an atmosphere where he was in charge.

He also had this brilliant torture method where he would run his thumb along the muscles and ligaments in my shoulders finding painful spots and pressure points.  He never actually hurt me, but used jsutt enough pressure to let me know he coud hurt me at any time he wanted.  And that was the most important part. His masterfully directed my attention causing his torture to become the main aspect of my dream.

*Gimpy*:  This guy was was less skilled than the ThumbMaster.  He prefered to assume the role of an indestructible psycho killer who stalks you relentlessly.  In fact he preferred the threat of chasing/stalking to actual physical violence, and would let me get away so he could continue with his relentless stalking.  He was creating a scenaio of fear, which was much more important than actually attacking me.

THis guy was nigh indestructible, and nothing I threw at him would phase him in he least.  THis was very annoying for me because I still had a thing for direct attacks. 

 One night, when nothing was working on this guy, I remembered something I had read in one of Castaneda's books about a weak spot on the energy body.  I performed a special attack and managed to hurt him.  I'm not telling what I did or how, but afterwards, I had the impression I actually hurt him.  It wasn't just a dream attack, I felt I did real lasting damage to a real person.  Not just to his dream body, but to his real body.

I asked around a month or two later if anyone had encounterd a DC that fit his MO, and also had a limp.  Two people reported seeing a limping DC that behaved like Gimpy.  They both reported that he had grey hair.

I seriously think I hurt that guy for real.

*Real or Not?*
From those series of dreams, I devised my three rules of dreaming.  Everyone says I likely induced those dreams myself, and initially, I thought that was the case as well.  But after going over them again and again, they are distinctly different from normal dreams.

For starters, normal dreams follow these rules without exception.  I'm able to trace back where things came from as a result of what I had my attention fixed on, and more importantly, my attention would wander around naturally.  

But in these shared dreaming encounters, I wasn't in control of my attention, they were.  Even when I'm not in contol of my attention, I can still recognize the natural progression as it moves around, and recognize what drew my attention to certain things.  But when I interacted with these two people, they were the ones that were directing my attention in a most unnatural manner.  

The difference to me is very clear, and my dream dreams have not unfolded like that before or since.  Keep in mind I have 15 years of DJs to compare these against.  I'm not making this up because I want to be special as many people say.  I'd much rather take full credit for discovering these rules, but unfortunately, they were demonstrated to me by other people.  Furthermore, those rules were the last thing I was expecting to discover.  I already thought I know all there was to know about LD fighting, so I was quite surprised to find that I didn't know the first thing about dreaming.
*
Questions.*
_What is a Night Stalker's True purpose?_
Initially, I assumed they were just shit disturbing greifers, much like you will find in any online video game.  People who delight in tormenting others.  That may be the case, but I learned such a great deal from those encounters, I'm wondering if their true purpose was to teach.  And if not teaching, then for practice.  The learning curve was just so much higher interacting with them than in my subsequent dreams where I'm exploring these concepts by myself.  You have not only your attention to deal with, but someone else's as well.

_Why terrorize dreamers?_
Either for teaching or for practice, it creates a scenario where the rules of engagement are implicitly understood.  Fight or Flight, things couldn't be simpler.  There is no need to set up rules or goals, which saves a lot of time.

_Do they know how to cause real damage?_
Either they know how to hurt people for real, and choose not to, or they have no idea how to do that, and I just stumbled upon it as a fluke.  Were they trying to teach me and I took things too far?  Or was it something they just didn't know how to do?  I'm thinking they don't know how to hurt people for real.  Mainly because I took to these practices like a fish to water, and it wasn't long before I consistently outclassed them in a very short period of time.



So there you have it.  Send the guys with the butterfly nets to stick me in a padded room.  As crazy as it sounds, the rules that came from it work, all the time, every time.  Frankly I'm amazed at how little opposition this thread has gotten.  I have to assume it's because these rules are so self evident, you can't argue against them, which is why I'm leaking this dirty little secret now.

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## Njd1990

Interesting, to say the least. I don't LD on a regular enough basis to question what you've posted, but in terms of understanding why people would do such a thing, is quite simple (Which I think you already know but hell I'll post my take anyways) Fun. After I master an online game or something I tend to get bored sometimes and pick on people. Not malicious intent of course, but to flex my abilities and maybe get a challenge out of it....More often than not I had challenges especially running from people better than myself  :wink2: 

Cool stuff.

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## Vortex

> *
> Questions.*
> _What is a Night Stalker's True purpose?_
> Initially, I assumed they were just shit disturbing greifers, much like you will find in any online video game.  People who delight in tormenting others.  That may be the case, 
> 
> _Why terrorize dreamers?_



Cusp, have you considered the possibility that they are inorganic beings who are feeding off of your attention?

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## The Cusp

> Cusp, have you considered the possibility that they are inorganic beings who are feeding off of your attention?



They were too clumsy for IBs.  They made very human mistakes.  You could see when they lost lucidity or focus.  One minute they are hunting me down, the next they get distracted by something in the dream.  Plus the timing matched my challenges exactly.

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## Oneiro

> They were too clumsy for IBs. They made very human mistakes.



Come on, Cusp.. lots of different types of IBs in-dreaming..

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## The Cusp

> Come on, Cusp.. lots of different types of IBs in-dreaming..



Perhaps, but IBs aren't likely to suddenly lose lucidity like that.  That's a human failing.

----------


## Oneiro

Well.. I would beg to differ about that..

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## The Cusp

I'm still quite sure they were real people rather than IBs.

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## tommo

Did they teach you how to stalk?
and are you saying these are people IRL that have mastered their dreaming skills so that they can enter other peoples dreams?
If you know how to do it, enter my dreams anytime from tonight to next friday night.  THAT INCLUDES ALL YOU OTHER NIGHT STALKERS TOO!!!!

Oh and Cusp, I see you're over at  astral dynamics.com
Do you believe in that too?

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## anomanderis

So maybe it was Gimpy who I had a run in with... the psychotic bastard with a limp :smiley:  
(Oh, and if you're reading this, Gimpy, thanks for the great experience, as terrifying as it was at the time  :wink2:  )

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## The Cusp

> Did they teach you how to stalk?
> and are you saying these are people IRL that have mastered their dreaming skills so that they can enter other peoples dreams?
> If you know how to do it, enter my dreams anytime from tonight to next friday night.  THAT INCLUDES ALL YOU OTHER NIGHT STALKERS TOO!!!!
> 
> Oh and Cusp, I see you're over at  astral dynamics.com
> Do you believe in that too?



No, I don't know how to do that.  Yet.  But I'm a lazy bastard.  I'll get around to it eventually.

In regards to the AD site and OBEs, I'm not sure what I believe.  I tend to think it's just a dream, but I'm starting to think RL is just a dream as well, so who knows?  But I have very little experience in that area.   I just go there to get the hippie perspective from time to time.

----------


## tommo

haha ok fair enough.
Anyone heard of that bigfoot being captured thing goin around?
Good example of the attention thing.  I just wonder, if they went to the media and said "we found bigfoot" and they were like "yeh we don't care", nobody would ever bother trying to create these hoaxes.

Tell the truth Cusp it was you wasn't it? haha nah but what is that rumour/hoax thing you were going to do? thought of it yet?

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## The Cusp

> haha ok fair enough.
> Anyone heard of that bigfoot being captured thing goin around?
> Good example of the attention thing.  I just wonder, if they went to the media and said "we found bigfoot" and they were like "yeh we don't care", nobody would ever bother trying to create these hoaxes.
> 
> Tell the truth Cusp it was you wasn't it? haha nah but what is that rumour/hoax thing you were going to do? thought of it yet?



Not yet.  Really I just wanted to put that out there because it's a good analogy of how dream control works.  There is very little difference in what's happening with those stories and what happens in a dream.  They are both active on so many levels, it's hard to get a clear picture of of how much impact they have.

*The Dream Sharing Scenario*
Now as for this shared dreaming nonsense, I don't expect most people reading this to believe it.  If you don't that's fine, but for the sake of this discussion, consider it a theoretical scenario.  The implications of those three rules of dreaming under those conditions, where two dreamers are interacting, are just easier grasp.  It's easier to learn to play chess against an opponent than by your self.  Your biggest opponent is yourself, but it's hard to imagine how much we work against ourselves in dreams.  The idea of an opponent helps clear things up.

Someone just posted this dream about a lucid DC.  To me this looks like an example of some possessing superb knowledge of dream control.  Just consider the possibility, it makes it easier to identify specific instances or opportunities for dream control sequentially.  Wether they are actual shared dreams or not doesn't change how these rules shape the dream in the least.





> Last night, I had an LD where I think one of the dream characters seemed to be just as aware of it being a dream.
> 
> I was in my front yard and I got lucid, probably from an RC, can't exactly remember. I approached a girl standing in my front yard and asked for, well, I'm sure you all know. 
> 
> Her reply was to grab me and throw me straight over into the neighbor's driveway! She had enough strength to lift me from the ground over her head! It popped into my mind that she was probably as lucid as I was, as I layed on the ground. I looked over the wall that's in our neighbor's driveway and she walks away, and in her place a bear appears and attacks me! The bear comes to my right and takes a missed bite at my right arm! I run from it, shoot at it, and soon two are following me. I run into the other neighbor's yard, stop near the pool, and one of them falls in. I pull out a pistol and start shooting the other one as I run for my yard. I climb up on the swingset ladder, and shoot the other one dead as it's on its hind legs behind me. Soon after, a dinosaur comes from across the field and that wakes me up (or gets me into an FA, can't remember exactly).
> 
> I could be wrong, but I think the DC was probably lucid and did this as a reply to my proposition! There was just something I suspected that she made the bear appear, so it would attack me.
> 
> Or it could be that I read about one childhood nightmare about a bear being in the closet during a WBTB.
> ...







> Her reply was to grab me and throw me straight over into the neighbor's driveway! She had enough strength to lift me from the ground over her head! It popped into my mind that she was probably as lucid as I was, as I layed on the ground.



That would seem like a normal reaction for any good lucid dreamer.  But let's consider that this girl really knew what she was doing, and she also knew this guy was a fellow dreamer.  She knows it's a shared dream even though the doesn't.  And he's pissed her off enough that she wants to make an example of him.

In order to ensure that he receives his lucid butt whooping, she wants make shure he doesn't wake up.  Spinning is often thought to be a good way to stop from waking up, because the intense motion helps creates additional focus points to keep things stable.  

Picking the guy up an throwing him would have the same effect as spinning, keeping him anchored, or even _trapped_, in the dream.  It's actually much better, because spinning is too disorienting.  Flying through the air and crashing into hard pavement is going to make things feel pretty damn real.





> It popped into my mind that she was probably as lucid as I was, as I layed on the ground. I looked over the wall that's in our neighbor's driveway and she walks away, and in her place a bear appears and attacks me!



In a shared dream scenario, that would be a superbly skilled and stylish use of the second rule.  She knows that she doesn't even have to bother dealing with this guy directly.  She provides him something that will completely capture his attention, and she knows it will grow out of control as a result. Which of course it does.  The guy focuses on the bear so much, it splits in two!    Everything after the introduction of the bear element is a clear example of attention growing out of control as a result of the second rule.  The scariness of the bear probably invokes the emotional element of the third rule as well, making it even more effective.

Maybe the bear was just a result of him reading about it, but I submit that people don't necessarily see the same thing during shared dreaming.  All she needed to do was create a general purpose localized threat, and his dreaming attention filled in the details.   Nothing trumps the fundamental rules of dreaming.  Everything we experience is a direct result of our own personal schemata.

----------


## [Alpha]-0mega-

Wasn't there a general rule that things in dreams when lucid, are like you expect them to be? As in, when you eat a chicken it will taste like what you think chicken tastes like.

In a dream that I had once I was in a forest with people from my school playing around a bit, there was a supermarket, and I tried to summon a hot girl from my school.
It failed, other people appeared, and I rewound time inside the supermarket. I come out and what the? A girl walks into the scene from some kind of tunnel, that I did not know, did not summon, and did not expect to come here.

And I wake up.

I go back to bed, I'm in an other part of the forest, but with the same people including that girl, eventually I kissed her and her lips tasted like peach.

This is one of the things that make me believe in Shared dreaming, as there is no reason for her lips to taste like peach, and I'm sure as hell my pillow doesn't taste like peach.

But then again, some of your other stated ''rules'' aren't exactly 100&#37; valid either.

----------


## The Cusp

> Wasn't there a general rule that things in dreams when lucid, are like you expect them to be? As in, when you eat a chicken it will taste like what you think chicken tastes like.



Sort of, really it comes down to what schemata you have active in you mind, which is not necessarily what you might be expecting.  

For instance, the word "NOT" has very little meaning in your dreams.  If you were to say to yourself in a lucid, "When I open this door, there is NOT going to be a blood sucking vampire standing there!".  The "not" won't help since you've already invoked the image of the vampire, which in all likelyhood is exactly what you'd find.





> But then again, some of your other stated ''rules'' aren't exactly 100% valid either.



Well that's pretty vague.  If they don't seem valid, you probably just don't understand it yet.  Tell me what you have a problem with, and I'll do my best to better explain.





> This is one of the things that make me believe in Shared dreaming, as there is no reason for her lips to taste like peach, and I'm sure as hell my pillow doesn't taste like peach.



You should read up on Archetypes.  There is every reason for her lips to taste like peaches!  Peaches have a very fundamental feminine association.  It can mean boobs, or even the fuzzy peach. ::D:

----------


## tommo

Yeah I was going to say that peaches seems 'dream logical' to me.  So many things I can think of that could make you taste peaches on her lips.  But Cusp's examples will do lol  ::D: 

I'm not taken on the shared dreaming and therefore NS & DW yet, so I'll stay out of that conversation until I experience it.

----------


## Brainstorm

I experience things just like the girl/bear stuff whenever I have an idea cross my mind. The instant he conceptualized in the dream that she 'may' also be lucid the scenario played through. My thoughts anyhow.

As for where the idea came from in the first place. Something like that happens when I doubt my control at all.

----------


## Brainstorm

Haha now Ive read the full page. This Nightstalker idea is very interesting to me. Let me give it a whack. Im not nearly as experienced as you sound so forgive me if Im shooting air. I just really like theorizing.

If youre that deep into believing anything is possible in the dream world, and that the real world might be a dream, and even other people being able to enter your dreams, wouldnt your dreams reflect your beliefs whether or not they were true? Isnt your mind going to introduce these concepts in your dreams as you understand them?

I don't think having good control would remove this problem. It sounds like youve incubated this idea over time. Reading what you typed and seeing how it escalated, having it progress and get more complicated as you think more about what the truth could be - I bet you can find a correlation in your opponents actions based on what you had, at the time, accepted as possible. At one point you had the idea, wow this guy is could beat me, and so he could. Also I bet there's a pattern in what types of things in general entered your dreams as you conceived of their existence in the waking world. 

And if youve invested a lot into explaining whats going on, and start to believe it really is possible, I can completely see you creating this entire situation for yourself.

But if Im right and it's just your head, how you would find your way out of it? Sounds like you already worked out of it naturally, by convincing yourself that you had started understanding their technique (which required you to come up with one, one that works in line with something you perceive as a previous weakness, i think you said things about attention), and that maybe because of that the next fight wouldnt be so one sided.  

That's how I feel my dreams work anyway. I very well could have read something wrong or had a misconception about dreaming in general so if all that was pointless blather it won't hurt my feelings to hear it lol.

----------


## The Cusp

> wouldn’t your dreams reflect your beliefs whether or not they were true? Isn’t your mind going to introduce these concepts in your dreams as you understand them?



Knowing that's the case is the first step to avoiding that situation.  But this thread has nothing to do with belief, I'm not asking anyone to believe anything.  Besides, this is not what I was expecting to find.  I already thought I knew everything about lucid dreaming before I started this.  I've since had to start over from scratch and relearn everything.  Wouldn't it have been easier to come up with a scenario that that matched my pre-existing body of knowledge?  It sure would have taken a lot less work...

It's not just in my dreams that reflect these rules, it's every dream, every time.  I didn't make them up, they were already there waiting to be discovered.  Show me any dream that was recalled with enough detail, and I'll be able to walk you through it's development step by step.

If I am delusional, then as a self fulfilling fantasy, you gotta admit it's pretty tight.  

Or maybe you believe I'm making this up.  Especially after that post I made about rumors.  I am one of the one responsible for keeping that Night Stalker thread alive.  Perhaps the shared dreaming thing is my rumor.  In which case, that would make it an incredible example of my rules for dream control being applied to the to the waking world.

I maintain that I'm just trying to describe the truth as best as I can see it.

----------


## tommo

> Show me any dream that was recalled with enough detail, and I'll be able to walk you through it's development step by step.



Hmmmm, I'll take you up on that offer, I'll post a dream that I have tonight, on this thread tomorrow.

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## anomanderis

This morning I was lucid for the longest time ever. And I lost my lucidity 5 seconds after thinking that...
As soon as i became aware of the length (even though it might've been a short period, since we all know time can get funky) of my lucidity, it started wavering.
Before it had been very constant, almost as if i was not aware that i was lucid, even though i was. One could argue that it was semi-lucidity, but that's not what i felt (remember). I remember being fully lucid. I was lucid, but didn't put attention on the time. Almost like when going into a trance i learned how not to pay attention to salivation and then i didn't need to swallow anymore. The most stable one I have ever had . . . until that one fateful thought.

----------


## The Cusp

> This morning I was lucid for the longest time ever. And I lost my lucidity 5 seconds after thinking that...
> As soon as i became aware of the length (even though it might've been a short period, since we all know time can get funky) of my lucidity, it started wavering.
> Before it had been very constant, almost as if i was not aware that i was lucid, even though i was. One could argue that it was semi-lucidity, but that's not what i felt (remember). I remember being fully lucid. I was lucid, but didn't put attention on the time. Almost like when going into a trance i learned how not to pay attention to salivation and then i didn't need to swallow anymore. The most stable one I have ever had . . . until that one fateful thought.



Sounds like a less extreme form of introversion, without the waking up.





> *
> 2. Introversion:* The dreams realizes they are dreaming and are so amazed, excited and thrilled by this fact that they focus all their attention on that thought alone. What that implies, the realization of what's happening, what's possible, all these thoughts direct a sudden rush of your awareness inwards to deal with all these mental machinations, which creates a corresponding vacuum in the dream around them. With no attention to sustain it's self, the dream collapses and the dreamer wakes up.

----------


## tommo

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=64017

Another vampire?
Castle, person in the shadows wearing a black cape, sound like DRACULA! to me. lol

----------


## anomanderis

> Sounds like a less extreme form of introversion, without the waking up.



I assume you mean the moment when I started thinking of the time?
Today I had another lucid, where I was in control and it was extremely stable (none of that 'I can't move my eyes or i'll wake up' shit anymore) until after lets say 20-30 seconds or so i first became aware of the length of time i had been lucid (the point of introversion, so to speak). A few seconds after that I woke up.
It seems that to lengthen my lucidity, I need to push the point of introversion as far as possible until i get rid of it.

----------


## The Cusp

> It seems that to lengthen my lucidity, I need to push the point of introversion as far as possible until i get rid of it.



You might not have to get rid of it, you could try to balance it out.  I'm sure if you had that thought while you were running, you wouldn't have had that problem.  Of course it's kind of hard to stop those kinds of thoughts from arising at the wrong moments.

But there is a process to waking up.  Things fall apart first, and if you can catch that happening, you might be able to counteract it.

----------


## Brainstorm

I'm just trying to take part in the discussion and offer what I got out of it so far. I haven't read the entire thread and from what I have read I really admire what you've done so far. Don't get me wrong there  :smiley: 

Few people make such thought provoking posts anywhere on the internet let alone here!

----------


## The Cusp

Lol, I started off with two, now I need four.

Actually the new fourth rule isn't anything new.  It's been an integral part of this discussion all along.  I just feel I need to stress the importance of schemata and personal representation systems.  It definitely needs it's own rule.  But that's the last one! 

I'll figure out how to word it later, because really it's part of rule 2.  Or maybe it should be a sub rule to rule two.  Or maybe I should just get some sleep (and hopefully some practice) and worry about it tomorrow.

----------


## anomanderis

Had an amazing lucid this morning. Just indescribably vivid and beyond real. When I reached the point of introversion, I could _feel_ it. Feel my awareness reaching inwards and lack of focus on the dreamscape. I took this as a cue to give my mind as much sensory input from the dreamscape as i could and i stabilized my lucidity.
When I started losing it I was holding snow in my hands. It seems that every time I have something in my hands (strong sensory input) my lucidity does not end in me waking up (unless its a false awakening), but in entering a new dream, though i've still lost my lucidity almost every time.

----------


## seeker28

It is late and I'm tired, so I apologize if I ramble or fail to be clear.  Sorry if I fail to stay on topic.

Cusp -- I like where the discussion is going.  I've been wondering for months now if this whole thing is NS related.  I've had some dreams where people who were clearly not DCs taught me stuff.  These were always fairly friendly interactions.  Maybe I should challenge the NS myself to see what I could learn.

Lately I've been avoiding any area of DV that isn't LD focused.  I need to head over to the "Beyond" section and see where things are going.  I've been having some unusual dream experiences and want to find some connections.

I agree that some mention of personal schemata and whatnot would be a good idea.

I had an interesting LD the other night.
An unusually smart and insightful DC came up to me and we started talking.  I realized he was sort of a DG.  The DC of my partner kept distracting me.  I decided to be sure if she was just a DC or if perhaps we were sharing a dream.  So I asked her a simple subtraction problem.  She couldn't answer.  I just wanted her to leave me alone, so I pushed her into the ground using a gesture (not actually touching her).  Then I went on with my conversation with the DG.

The only problem was that in a later dream I felt guilty about what I had done to the DC of my partner (even though I knew it was just a DC) and spent a couple of LDs fabricating scenarios where I saved her.

----------


## Timothy Paradox

A question about the emotions: What if you meet a person you're in love with in your dream? How will it affect the dreamscape?

Seeker28, what is NS?

----------


## anomanderis

> A question about the emotions: What if you meet a person you're in love with in your dream? How will it affect the dreamscape?
> 
> Seeker28, what is NS?



NS means Night Stalker.
DW means Dream Walker.

I've met the person I am in love with several times: the dreamscape becomes non-existent, because I am devoting all of my attention on that person and the feeling i have for her.

----------


## The Cusp

> A question about the emotions: What if you meet a person you're in love with in your dream? How will it affect the dreamscape?



Your love for that person will cause them to become a central element of the dream, and the rest of the dream will form around them.  This turns out to be a thorn in your side more often than not.  You will have nice dreams sometimes, but if you've ever gotten into an argument with that person, that scenario stands a good chance of playing it's self out again (or some approximation thereof).  Your concern for their welfare or safety will also manifest unpleasant scenarios.

If you keep a DJ, do a search for "mother" or "father" or anyone else you you love.  You'll find that the majority of the time, the dream goes bad in some way.

You need freedom to act in a dream, and people like that will tie you down.





> Had an amazing lucid this morning. Just indescribably vivid and beyond real. When I reached the point of introversion, I could feel it. Feel my awareness reaching inwards and lack of focus on the dreamscape. I took this as a cue to give my mind as much sensory input from the dreamscape as i could and i stabilized my lucidity.
> When I started losing it I was holding snow in my hands. It seems that every time I have something in my hands (strong sensory input) my lucidity does not end in me waking up (unless its a false awakening), but in entering a new dream, though i've still lost my lucidity almost every time.



THat's awesome!  I'm glad it's working for you. Feeling it like that is really important in ways I can't describe at the moment.  I know what you mean by losing lucidity.  Often I will relinquish my lucidity in order to stabilize the dream, and forget to get it back.  Trying to focus lucidity seems artificial at times, and it can be good to slip back into natural dreaming to stabilize things.

Starting a fresh new dream after the point of introversion is only natural.  Things were fading away, and there was likely not much left of the original dream.  So the dream has to start over, building off of what you have your attention on.  When that happens, try to see how the new dream is related to your area of focus that salvaged the dream.



I've been a little lax with updating this thread the past few weeks.  Had a bad case of writers block, and a loss of focus.  I have three articles in the works for this topic which I'll finish soon.

Plus I haven't been lucid in well over a month, but broke that streak last night in a lucid where I concluded that dreams are no different than reality.

To give a recent example, I saw a guy yelling at a little girl yesterday who was about the same age as me niece.  Now my 19 month old niece is currently obsessed with pinecones (which I think is due to their inherent sacred geometry).  So I walk into my building, thinking about my neice because that scene I just witnessed captivated my attention, and there in the middle of the hall is a pinecone.  Call it coincidence or synchronicity, but I say it's the second rule of dreaming in action.  

My personal schemata associates pinecones with my niece, and by thinking about her, that's the path it took.  I've lived in this building three years now, and I've never seen _anything_ laying in the hall.

----------


## Timothy Paradox

> Your love for that person will cause them to become a central element of the dream, and the rest of the dream will form around them.  This turns out to be a thorn in your side more often than not.  You will have nice dreams sometimes, but if you've ever gotten into an argument with that person, that scenario stands a good chance of playing it's self out again (or some approximation thereof).  Your concern for their welfare or safety will also manifest unpleasant scenarios.
> 
> If you keep a DJ, do a search for "mother" or "father" or anyone else you you love.  You'll find that the majority of the time, the dream goes bad in some way.
> 
> You need freedom to act in a dream, and people like that will tie you down.



Lol don't worry - I've never even met this person in real life so we won't argue about anything. By the way, she's not really human anyway - and whoever or whatever tries to harm her will regret doing so.

----------


## tommo

Whenever I dream about someone I love something bad _almost_ always happens.  I think I've mentioned that before in this thread only one time or maybe two that I can remember were good.  The others she was either angry at me or dying, about to die and I had to save her etc.

----------


## Timothy Paradox

> Whenever I dream about someone I love something bad _almost_ always happens.  I think I've mentioned that before in this thread only one time or maybe two that I can remember were good.  The others she was either angry at me or dying, about to die and I had to save her etc.



Yes but isn't that because the subconcious is in control?
I intend to manifest her, and the enviroment around us. If I don't want anything bad to happen, nothing will. I thought that was what LD'ing was all about.

----------


## anomanderis

> Yes but isn't that because the subconcious is in control?
> I intend to manifest her, and the enviroment around us. If I don't want anything bad to happen, nothing will. I thought that was what LD'ing was all about.



Not wanting anything bad to happen doesn't mean that it won't. If you concentrate on nothing bad happening, then it probably will, because you are trying to make a positive affirmation using a negative phrase.
I would suggest believing that what you want to happen will happen. To have the state of mind where no other option is possible, but this is not "forced", it is just infallible "faith".

Once you have some experience ld'ing, you'll know what i mean. You just do it. That's all.

----------


## Timothy Paradox

> Not wanting anything bad to happen doesn't mean that it won't. If you concentrate on nothing bad happening, then it probably will, because you are trying to make a positive affirmation using a negative phrase.
> I would suggest believing that what you want to happen will happen. To have the state of mind where no other option is possible, but this is not "forced", it is just infallible "faith".
> 
> Once you have some experience ld'ing, you'll know what i mean. You just do it. That's all.



I know what you mean with "positive affirmation". You're not even supposed to THINK about something bad happening; because "not bad" still has the word "bad" in it if you know what I mean.
I'll focus on the exact opposite of bad  :tongue2:

----------


## anomanderis

If you've ever done focal meditation, that's what I've used to learn the state of mind required. There is nothing other. You don't even think about it. If i had to describe it somehow, i'd say it is mostly will and somewhat pre-thought, knowing the context of the thought before it forms, which can also be considered as will.
In the end the best explanation is that you just do it, but you won't understand that until you've already done it ::D: 
Like that little green one said, "There is no try. You do or you do not."

The best way is not to think at all, but if you're not familiar with that state of mind, fat chance you'll get there without practice.

----------


## Timothy Paradox

> If you've ever done focal meditation, that's what I've used to learn the state of mind required. There is nothing other. You don't even think about it. If i had to describe it somehow, i'd say it is mostly will and somewhat pre-thought, knowing the context of the thought before it forms, which can also be considered as will.
> In the end the best explanation is that you just do it, but you won't understand that until you've already done it
> Like that little green one said, "There is no try. You do or you do not."
> 
> The best way is not to think at all, but if you're not familiar with that state of mind, fat chance you'll get there without practice.



You guys are really very optimistic. Why on earth would everybody be able to do it and not me? And why do you assume that I am inadequate?
I look at it this way. I can do it. I am going to do it. Naysayers can't stop me.
Anyway, I'm looking up focal meditation on the net to see what it's all about.

EDIT: Lol. I enter "focal meditation' and the first thing I find is a bunch of sites about "sorcerers and psi-wheels".
LD'ing is science.
EDIT2: OMFG 45-60 minutes!?

----------


## Shift

> Your love for that person will cause them to become a central element of the dream, and the rest of the dream will form around them.  This turns out to be a thorn in your side more often than not.  You will have nice dreams sometimes, but if you've ever gotten into an argument with that person, that scenario stands a good chance of playing it's self out again (or some approximation thereof).  Your concern for their welfare or safety will also manifest unpleasant scenarios.
> 
> If you keep a DJ, do a search for "mother" or "father" or anyone else you you love.  You'll find that the majority of the time, the dream goes bad in some way.
> 
> You need freedom to act in a dream, and people like that will tie you down.



Wow, NONE of my dreams about the people I love are like that, I've only had about 3 such nightmares, and usually when I am worried about someone like they are expressing suicidal thoughts or I know they are doing something dangerous. The rest of my dreams are always upbeat and pleasant, we are always just hanging out or doing fun things together...

----------


## Timothy Paradox

> Wow, NONE of my dreams about the people I love are like that, I've only had about 3 such nightmares, and usually when I am worried about someone like they are expressing suicidal thoughts or I know they are doing something dangerous. The rest of my dreams are always upbeat and pleasant, we are always just hanging out or doing fun things together...



Thanks Shift... REALLY. Thanks.
I believe my dream will be very VERY happy and satisfying.
If you guys knew what I am feeling for this person then you'd know that my dream can't be anything but good.  ::D:

----------


## The Cusp

> Wow, NONE of my dreams about the people I love are like that, I've only had about 3 such nightmares, and usually when I am worried about someone like they are expressing suicidal thoughts or I know they are doing something dangerous.



I didn't mean to imply they would be nightmares, only that they tend to tip the scales towards the negative.  Worrying that someone you love is doing something dangerous is a perfect example.  It's hard to avoid having those thoughts, lucid or not, and worrying about something in a dream creates a high likelyhood that it will happen.

THose kinds of attachments limit your control, be they positive or negative.  But only because that is what you _use_ for control, so loved ones tie up your resources in a manner of speaking.

----------


## Timothy Paradox

> I didn't mean to imply they would be nightmares, only that they tend to tip the scales towards the negative.  Worrying that someone you love is doing something dangerous is a perfect example.  It's hard to avoid having those thoughts, lucid or not, and worrying about something in a dream creates a high likelyhood that it will happen.
> 
> THose kinds of attachments limit your control, be they positive or negative.  But only because that is what you _use_ for control, so loved ones tie up your resources in a manner of speaking.



In my case they are my dream goal, so they are supposed to tie up my resources ^^

----------


## Shift

Right, but what I'm saying is that those few negative dreams are the ONLY negative ones. In general my dreams are crazy, ridiculous, but RARELY anything but fun and peaceful. I dunno, I used to have nightmares when I was younger, maybe it's a growth thing?

The only time I have negative dreams now are, like I said, when I'm truly worried about someone I love because I'm worried about them in waking life, or every so often when I have a nightmare, but with those few exceptions I am never around people I know in my nightmares.

I had a dream last night that I was a killer and couldn't control it. I wonder if that means I'm narcissistic  ::tongue::

----------


## Timothy Paradox

> Right, but what I'm saying is that those few negative dreams are the ONLY negative ones. In general my dreams are crazy, ridiculous, but RARELY anything but fun and peaceful. I dunno, I used to have nightmares when I was younger, maybe it's a growth thing?
> 
> The only time I have negative dreams now are, like I said, when I'm truly worried about someone I love because I'm worried about them in waking life, or every so often when I have a nightmare, but with those few exceptions I am never around people I know in my nightmares.
> 
> I had a dream last night that I was a killer and couldn't control it. I wonder if that means I'm narcissistic



It means you are a killer! Get help immediately before anyone gets hurt!

----------


## anomanderis

> You guys are really very optimistic. Why on earth would everybody be able to do it and not me? And why do you assume that I am inadequate?
> I look at it this way. I can do it. I am going to do it. Naysayers can't stop me.



Thinking like that is the way to go, just don't overdo it. By that I mean don't get cocky without having experience. Considering your sig, you haven't had that much lucidity. I know how important it is to believe that you can do it and even believe in yourself when you can't, it is a very slippery path to delusion if you don't pay attention.
I never even thought that you might be inadequate, don't get me wrong, but controlling ones mind is one of the hardest things to do and with all probability no-one can do it without extensive practice. You might think you're in control, but when push comes to shove, you (in all probability) won't get beyond that at first.

And btw, not everybody is able to do it and even those who can have varying degrees of success  :wink2:

----------


## Timothy Paradox

> Thinking like that is the way to go, just don't overdo it. By that I mean don't get cocky without having experience. Considering your sig, you haven't had that much lucidity. I know how important it is to believe that you can do it and even believe in yourself when you can't, it is a very slippery path to delusion if you don't pay attention.
> I never even thought that you might be inadequate, don't get me wrong, but controlling ones mind is one of the hardest things to do and with all probability no-one can do it without extensive practice. You might think you're in control, but when push comes to shove, you (in all probability) won't get beyond that at first.
> 
> And btw, not everybody is able to do it and even those who can have varying degrees of success



I'm not cocky - I have failed before. But I am determined enough to continue until it's done.

----------


## seeker28

I wish you luck Timothy Paradox!

I think that not only is belief in yourself important to dream control success, but also an ability to sustain that belief when things are hard.  Sometimes I have perfect dream control -- anything I want happens instantly and effortlessly.  And other times I struggle to do even the most basic (which for me is flying).  I think some of it has to do with attitude, and some has to do with stress and exhaustion.  I know when I'm stressed out or absloutlely exhausted it does weird things with my dreams.

----------


## anomanderis

> I'm not cocky - I have failed before. But I am determined enough to continue until it's done.



That is good to hear  :smiley: 




This morning I had another lucid spree. I was in a regular dream, when some guys were chasing me and my mother (surprisingly enough this is the first time i remember my mother was in a dream). I told my mom to head for the bushes and run away while i would distract them. 
A man came out of the car, we had a scuffle that ended with me holding a rifle without a magazine and him with a fully loaded one. 
This is where i became lucid. The only indication of bullets hitting me were little bullet-sized points of slight pressure and discomfort on my chest and face. The fact that i din't have a magazine in the gun didn't stop me from going full-auto on the bastard. 
I mowed down a couple of them (ripping their heads apart with bullets), thinking that the aim was different than in counter-strike.
Then i felt the point of introversion coming on and my lucidity destabilising. I bunched my fist, since i had nothing to hold on to at the time, the act itself both physical stimulus from the dream and a mental concept of gripping on, of not letting go.
next I knew I was in a counter-strike dream, everybody running around with knives. I wondered whether I was sill in a dream. (It seems fairly obvious as you're awake that it was a dream, but things are not that simple when you're still in it)
I retained my lucidity and when my lucidity started wavering, i bunched my fist again as hard as i could. Someone stabbed me and I died. (Somewhere between this and the next sentence i played gta on my pc, still kinda lucid, but caught up in the dream).
As I died, everything went black. Damn, i thought, thinking that i had woken up. My fist was still clenched tight. But then I wondered. Even though it felt like i had woken up, a part of my mind still told me to make sure.
Eyes closed, I could suddenly see my bedroom from behind my eyelids. I became fully lucid again as I hovered and was wafted about in the darkness, flowing through walls. 
Suddenly a dream had formed around me, but i felt oddly hazy and weak. As soon as i moved, the dream faltered and i woke up for real this time ::D: 

Even as I woke up I could feel like my right hand was clenched in a fist, but as soon as i moved it, i realized this was not actually so.
Today I finally managed to retain lucidity while moving from dream to dream and not let myself wake up as soon as i started losing it, though with each new dream my "power" weakened as i felt hazier and the dream around me much more fragile.
It was a good example of that thing or other that we've discussed here:
gunfight led to counter-strike, cs to knife-only map dream, that to playing behind the computer, that to gta ...

And I guess its confirmed that MILD is the best way for me to induce lucidity when i don't feel like doing absolutely anything else. What I do is for 10 seconds or so i absolutely and completely believe that i am going to have a lucid dream, that i have _already_ had it. Works almost every time if i'm not in a dry spell.

----------


## The Enterer

Cusp, what is it about these two characters that makes you so sure that they are seperate from your own psyche?

----------


## jimmie

Hey dream control people (especially the highly informative Cusp)!
I have been quite interested in how the mind works and how reality works.  This forum is repeating things I have learned in other ways throughout my search.

Okay.  From the start.  There was a guy named Milton H. Erickson, who revolutionized a lot of ways people treat psychological issues, and he made amazing breakthroughs in hypnosis and hypnotherapy.  Check him out online.  Also, read "My Voice Will Go With You", about some of the cool things he did.  (I think that's the book's name).
    Erickson talks about how people can create fixations on problems, and how to remove the fixation (very often solving the problem), and how people can train themselves to think certain ways or even have certain physical limits, and some ways to remove them.  He also says that when you remove these limits, you have to put a new limit THAT YOU TRUST in place, or else you will retreat to your old limit.
      I'm not sure how much important information I'm leaving out there, but check up on him, like on Wikipedia, and you should find what I mean.
      Anyway, I have this idea about how people remember things.  Imagine your favorite car.  What color is it?  What make and model is it?  Now, tell me what the license plate says, and which state it is from.  Most of the time, you won't have a license plate already in mind.  Your mind goes to the strongest associations you have about cars, and favorites, and favorite cars, and puts them together, leaving out any details that your "intent" didn't express.
     What is interesting, though, is if you try to think about something you DON'T know, your mind will get you as close as it can, using your assumptions.
     I was taking a test for a linguistics class, and I couldn't remember the name for one of the answers, though I KNEW I should be able to remember the name.  My mind came up with two words that had qualities similar to the correct answer, and I put them together in the way that seemed most right (like taking Lothar and Mustard, and getting Lostard), though I felt I definitely put down the wrong answer.  When I looked at the right answer later, I saw that I had is spelled correctly, and was only missing a single 'r' in the middle.
     I have had a ton of experiences much like this, and one of the BIG factors in whether I end up correct or not is how much I can convince myself to believe I actually know, or can derive, the real answer.  The more I believe in my ability to get the right answer, the closer my answer is to correct.  I don't know it's the right answer at the time.  I only try my best, and verify later.
     Whenever I just gave up, and decided I wouldn't figure it out, and wrote down what I was thinking anyway, I was way off.
     The theory I have is this:  You have a problem, a question, something you are seeking.  That sends out a specific signal (frequency of light, specific jigsaw pattern, who knows what??) such that the solution (and things close to the solution) will be the only responses that will cancel the original query.
     The response you get back will be the one closest to the assumptions you make AND the answer as possible.
      Example:  I remember a song, but I can't think of the tune.  I start getting impressions of certain parts of the song, but they sound like parts of other songs I know also, and if I focus on the other songs, I lose track of the original song completely.  But if I hunt down the original song relentlessly, I get another portion of yet ANOTHER song, and when I try to put them together, sometimes the song I'm looking for just SNAPS into place, and I remember it.
      What does this have to do with dream control?  My dreams answer my questions, in symbols of my assumptions, beliefs, and feelings, just as my memory answers my searches in symbols of my focus, assumptions, and intent.
      I can change my whole dream by changing my focus, questioning my beliefs, and altering my feelings.  What was really awesome is I had a dream in which I could fly as long as I thought I could fly.  But it wasn't as simple as jsut thinking I could fly, as I had to really believe it in every part of myself.  It was like a realization that your beliefs are not you, and are not reality.  They are something you create to help understand and deal with reality, and they affect the way you react with real life, and how life reacts to you.
     That is why I brought up Milton H. Erickson, because a lot of what he talks about is how your beliefs assist and restrict you, and how you can change them.  That is also why I brought up my theory on thought, because my belief in the answer gave me the answer (thought I didn't recognize it when I saw it), and my disbelief kept the answer from me.
-Jim

----------


## jimmie

> That's quite the inconsistency we have here, in that semi-lucids seem to offer better control than full lucids.  Since it's awareness of being in a dream that lends you control, it would be reasonable to assume that the better the awareness, the better the control.  That just doesn't seem to be the case.
> 
> My only explanation is that we (myself included) are scatter brained victims of the digital age.   Technology has conditioned us to the point where we can barely focus on anything for any length of time.  
> 
> That and our modern culture has no place for the ancient traditions of meditation and disciplines of the mind.  The majority of religions have time tested methods and techniques to school and train the mind.
> 
> To counteract this seeming lack of control, I would advise some form of meditation of mental training.  I'd recommend reading Carlos Castaneda's books, as they deal predominantly with attention.  But any type of meditative practice would be sure to help.



I have found in dreams and in real life that if I focus really hard on getting something to happen, it doesn't work.  In the dreams, objects don't move, I don't fly.  In real life, I get too caught up in the details and lose the overall goal and the lessons any problems are teaching me.
    However, in my dreams and real life, if I make my intentions strong towards my goal, and let the method be determined by the environment, or the dream, I can and do succeed.

----------


## jimmie

> Wow, wanna slip some grammar in there?
> Anyway think I get what you're saying and yes these things are all quite obvious, but discussing it leaves a chance for more insight and investigation into why all this happens and further things that you might not find quite so obvious.  Also discussing it lets people have input and could change how you think about it.
> 
> For example if you investigate say, bones of a velociraptor, you might go in thinking clear headed and thinking critically but then once you keep dwelling on this one thing by yourself your judgment would become clouded because you have no input from other people.  You might have a sudden feeling that this bone is only 100 years old and you would start looking for things that verify this, yet if someone was there with you they would say 'nah it's just dust' lol or whatever.  I don't know if I got to the point there but that is why people discuss obvious things.
> 
> Cusp came up with some interesting ideas and eventually started thinking he could apply this to real life just the same as in a dream, he obviously won't agree with me but I believe he dwelled on it too long by himself.  Therefore he started getting carried away with some ideas without someone there to say "wait a minute, you're not thinking clearly, real life cannot be manipulated like a dream etc etc"



That's an odd thing to say.  Real life is manipulated, much like dreams.  They may not be identical in all aspects, and maybe they are and we just don't have enough force of thought?  Maybe reality is an excuse to not take resposibility for our thoughts, and let "other things", that may just be us in disguise, control us.  Are you a person, or a dream of a person, who dreams they aren't in control?

----------


## risingprmc

So Cusp I have a question. I have little trust in people (emotional aspect) and when I go through my day to day I seem to be on auto-pilot. You know like when you stare into nothingness and your eyes adjust and sort of only see the outline of things, thats how it is for me everyday. So I visually dont really concentrate on anything, theres no attention to detail. I dont talk to anyone unless I need to, im a sociopath I guess you could say, so my interaction to the world is minimal. Going through the day like this and based on what Ive read of your dream rules, do you think my attentive disconnection from the real world would have an impact on my ability to dream control, based on your attention rule? Especially since we tend to interact in our dreams the way we do in real life, as far as behavior patterns are concerned?

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## The Cusp

> Cusp, what is it about these two characters that makes you so sure that they are seperate from your own psyche?



It's very simple.  They are able to use these dream control techniques I've been talking about, and they don't respond to me using them like a regular DC would. 





> So Cusp I have a question. I have little trust in people (emotional aspect) and when I go through my day to day I seem to be on auto-pilot. You know like when you stare into nothingness and your eyes adjust and sort of only see the outline of things, thats how it is for me everyday. So I visually dont really concentrate on anything, theres no attention to detail. I dont talk to anyone unless I need to, im a sociopath I guess you could say, so my interaction to the world is minimal. Going through the day like this and based on what Ive read of your dream rules, do you think my attentive disconnection from the real world would have an impact on my ability to dream control, based on your attention rule? Especially since we tend to interact in our dreams the way we do in real life, as far as behavior patterns are concerned?



Based on the rules, I would say your dreams would tend to be unstable.  Things would disappear quite frequently and there would be very little continuity.  Also your ability to spontaneously become lucid would be greatly deminished, so you would have to rely on reality checks and ILD methods to get lucid.  You would probably wake up a lot once you get lucid due to this introversion

I don't like talking to people either, but I would suggest trying to increase your awareness.  I think that is the difference between natural LDers and those that rely on methods.  Naturals are more aware of their surrounding





> I have found in dreams and in real life that if I focus really hard on getting something to happen, it doesn't work. In the dreams, objects don't move, I don't fly. In real life, I get too caught up in the details and lose the overall goal and the lessons any problems are teaching me.
>  However, in my dreams and real life, if I make my intentions strong towards my goal, and let the method be determined by the environment, or the dream, I can and do succeed.



Yep, you have to keep your eye on the prize.  Concentrate on you goal, and not how you're going to achieve it.  The trick is not to get distracted.  There are a bazillion things that can easily distract you, you just have to practice not letting your attention wander. 





> That is why I brought up Milton H. Erickson, because a lot of what he talks about is how your beliefs assist and restrict you, and how you can change them. That is also why I brought up my theory on thought, because my belief in the answer gave me the answer (thought I didn't recognize it when I saw it), and my disbelief kept the answer from me.
> -Jim



Thanks for that, Jimmy!  I'll be sure to look into that guy.  I've been meaning to look into hypnotism to see how it ties into this.  I get the feeling i could use these rules alone to hypnotize someone, but it's hard to find a volunteer who I can approach with this.

----------


## The Enterer

> It's very simple.  They are able to use these dream control techniques I've been talking about, and they don't respond to me using them like a regular DC would.



But, just to play devils advocate a bit, didnt you come across the concept of the dw/ns before you encountered them? Didnt you consciously invoke them? I find that my subconscious is very willing to play along with anything I ask it to. Do you feel that the manifestation of something autonomous and beyond your control is something beyond the ability of your subconscious minds ability, especially when you deliberately dwelled on the idea?

----------


## tommo

When I was saying all dreams with loved ones are bad it's only with this one girl I love and only when I'm not lucid.  Just to clear that up, someone referred to it, can't be bothered going back to check.

----------


## anomanderis

Today was the first time that I experienced real water while I was lucid. What i mean by that is simple: water in the dream felt the same as in physical reality, only with a slight difference caused (in my opinion) by the difference of physical and dream perception.
Before this time I had had one other lucid dream, where i fell into water. Visually it seemed like it was being rendered by dx7 and not dxGod ::D:  and it felt oddly... dilute. The surface was a dull pixellated monochrome.

So I'm very happy now  ::banana:: 

I wonder what brought about the change.

----------


## tommo

rofl.  I'm happy for you!  :smiley: 
Could have been anything really; what you ate, sleep pattern change or non-change, random spike in some random brain chemical that we can't explain, good mood lol you get the point.  Just my opinion though of course.  Could be a perfectly explicable explanation.  What happened during the whole dream?  Could be related to that....

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## anomanderis

> rofl.  I'm happy for you! 
> Could have been anything really; what you ate, sleep pattern change or non-change, random spike in some random brain chemical that we can't explain, good mood lol you get the point.  Just my opinion though of course.  Could be a perfectly explicable explanation.  What happened during the whole dream?  Could be related to that....



Even though I was lucid, I was kinda running away from the sound of footsteps near my school (which is right on a limestone embankment at the edge of the sea) when I fell back-first into the sea. It felt good to thrash around in it.

----------


## tommo

Hmmmm, suppose fear could make you more lucid or the dream more vivid.  trying to figure out what the sound is maybe.  Really can't pinpoint an answer because you can't prove the answers right lol  ::D:

----------


## Licity

Maybe the slight fear of the footsteps caused a little bit of an adrenaline rush? I'm not sure if that response works while asleep though...

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## anomanderis

I think the glandular system works the same way even when we sleep. I think...
I'll attribute this change to my over-all rise in dream realness and lucidity.

Though my last few lucids have been kind of tenuous and seemingly in very shallow sleep, since when I try to clench my fist, i've clenched my physical fist, which makes me wake up.
And for some reason when I had a full lucid this morning, I seemed to sense that I had been lucid many times before that during the night, but no memory of it remains...

----------


## Britni

Again, I feel emotions deserve a special mention. I'm assuming for the moment that emotions are something that require your attention to exist as well. But I'm not too sure about that at all, and the emotional influence may turn out a third rule. Anyone have any thoughts on weather emotions are something that require your attention to exist, or whether they they are independent entities.
----------------
Britni



Guaranteed ROI

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## anomanderis

> Anyone have any thoughts on weather emotions are something that require your attention to exist, or whether they they are independent entities.



Isn't it that for one to be aware of something, one must put attention on it? If that is true, then emotions require attention to be felt, meaning that whether they exist of themselves is pointless, since experiencing them requires attention.

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## The Enterer

Attention, intention, emotions... it's all psychic energy when you boil it down.

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## tommo

Heh....  I'm sure he meant 'physical' silly kids always getting those two words mixed up!  right....?

When you boil it all down it's interactions between neurons and chemicals in your brain actually.

----------


## Shift

> Heh....  I'm sure he meant 'physical' silly kids always getting those two words mixed up!  right....?
> 
> When you boil it all down it's interactions between neurons and chemicals in your brain actually.



thank you thank you thank you  :wink2:

----------


## The Enterer

Look, if you 'silly kids' want to try to make some kind of point that lucid dream control is a physical skill rather than a mental skill, you have a serious uphill battle in front of you. Otherwise you are splitting a hair that has no bearing on the subject at hand, and making yourself look ignorant in the process.

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## Shift

> Look, if you 'silly kids' want to try to make some kind of point that lucid dream control is a physical skill rather than a mental skill, you have a serious uphill battle in front of you. Otherwise you are splitting a hair that has no bearing on the subject at hand, and making yourself look ignorant in the process.



So you disagree that action potentials in neurons and chemical reactions are responsible for most of what goes on in your brain?

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## The Enterer

This thread is probably the best thing that has ever happened on DV. If you want to shit in the soup please go do it in another thread.

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## Licity

Cut the fighting, please. Thoughts boil down to physical actions and reactions, and plenty of the body's physical processes have effects on thoughts.

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## The Enterer

It works both ways. You left that out of your equation.

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## Shift

> Cut the fighting, please. Thoughts boil down to physical actions and reactions, and plenty of the body's physical processes have effects on thoughts.



 ::thumbup::  no more  :Off topic:   :wink2:  why are people unnecessarily hostile  ::shock::  yeesh

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## The Enterer

Yeah, right. It's 'Amen' when you agree and 'hostility' when you don't. Great 'dream guiding' there Shift.

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## The Enterer

> So you disagree that action potentials in neurons and chemical reactions are responsible for most of what goes on in your brain?




I dont disagree with the basic findings of neuroscience, and Im not sure why you would draw that conclusion from the fact that I used the term psychic energy. 

However it does seems that you some of you are missing half of the equation. If I insult you, and it messes with your thoughts, eventually your heartbeat might speed up, your face turn red and you might start pacing around. Clearly here we have a case where your thoughts affected your physiology and not the other way around. I think its pretty clear that it works both ways. My personal belief is that the brain doesnt dictate consciousness from a physical stand point, but more accurately translates between the two. 

Still this has NOTHING AT ALL to do with this thread and the point that I was trying to make, namely that all of these - emotions, attention, intent - are different colorations of the same basic undifferentiated psychic energy and that there is not, in my opinion at least, much use to be made in distinguishing between them. You have at your disposal X amount of this energy at any given time. Whether you spend it on emotion or on attention or intent, I dont think makes any difference in terms of control, but really just will reflect the flavor of the experience.

If anyone wants to take issue with that theory then thats fine, but lets leave the scientism out of it and stick to the topic, please.

That said, chimpanzees totally suck ass.

----------


## tommo

Um, dude, you've posted, what, five times? in this thread and you're telling US what to talk about.

Also you are the one who's face was blushing because you are the one who attacked personally.  I'm doing it now because it's the only way to say that.

Ok, so I at least am saying it has everything to do with dream control.
Thinking some psychic ability is making you dream or control dreams is not the way to go because you are deluded and therefore your thoughts are guiding you not the other way around.

Me and Shift are saying that mental processes are actually physical when you get down to it.  You should listen to Alan Watts audio tapes on the nature of consciousness.
We are not denying that emotions or thoughts are mental because that is essentially just a name we have put to our brain processes.  That doesn't change the fact that your brain is a physical thing.

That said, how the hell can we leave science or so called 'scientism' out of it?  When the whole process is scientific.
If you say leave science out of it we say leave 'psychicism' out of it then we have no argument and nothing to discuss. ::D: 

Just see that we don't have half of the equation, neither do you in fact.  You just have half of the equation wrong.  Let me leave you with this question.
If mental isn't physical then what is mental?  Is it an intangible thing? and is it supernatural?

----------


## The Enterer

> Um, dude, you've posted, what, five times? in this thread and you're telling US what to talk about.
> 
> Also you are the one who's face was blushing because you are the one who attacked personally.  I'm doing it now because it's the only way to say that.
> 
> Ok, so I at least am saying it has everything to do with dream control.
> Thinking some psychic ability is making you dream or control dreams is not the way to go because you are deluded and therefore your thoughts are guiding you not the other way around.
> 
> Me and Shift are saying that mental processes are actually physical when you get down to it.  You should listen to Alan Watts audio tapes on the nature of consciousness.
> We are not denying that emotions or thoughts are mental because that is essentially just a name we have put to our brain processes.  That doesn't change the fact that your brain is a physical thing.
> ...



If you don't understand the concept of emotion, attention, and intent as energy in lucid dream control you need to go back and read the thread from the beginning.  Your snide comment and Shift’s high five were kneejerk reactions, apparently to my use of the term ‘psychic energy’.  Perhaps you are just ignorant to the term ‘psychic energy’ as it applies to psychology? Where you draw all this other crap out of that; that I don’t accept neuroscience or that I don't think that the brain is physical or whatever nonsense, is nothing I brought to the conversation.

----------


## The Cusp

Thanks to everyone for keeping this thread alive while I've been out of it with allergies, flu and back pain. 


*
Rule #4:  There is no random in dreaming.  All changes and newly created dream elements follow our own personal schemata and archetypes without exception.* 

Let's take the ocean as an example.  What comes to mind when you think of the ocean?  Sand, beach, boats, seagulls, seashells, salt, waves, fish, whales, pirates, fishing, your uncle Jim who lives by the ocean, ect.

It would be impossible to make a complete list, because these things we associate with ocean are always changing.  But there are main ones that are more likely to come through in a dream than others.  If you dream of the ocean, any of those things may appear in your dream.  Where did the ocean come from?  Maybe there was a travel or vaction theme before that, which has an association with the ocean.

The thing that really makes dream elements seem random is that we can focus on several different things at once, so these influences overlap each other.

Continuing with our ocean example, let's add another element.  Say, the general theme of family (perhaps there was a family reunion element earlier in the dream, or even in RL).  The associations with family would be Mother, Father, brother, sister, cousins, aunts, uncles, ect.

So now we have 
*Ocean*:  Sand, beach, boats, seagulls, seashells, salt, waves, fish, whales, pirates, fishing, your uncle Jim who lives by the ocean, ect.  

*Family*:  Mother, Father, brother, sister, cousins, aunts, uncles, ect.

Since Uncle Jim belongs to both those categories, you can almost guarantee he's going to show up in your dreams.

Lets take it one step further and add an third, emotional element.  Let's say your uncle Jim is a drunk bastard who pisses you off, maybe even scares you a little when he's really hammered.  Other family members who evoke those emotions may show up in you dream.  And since Anger and Fear are associated with violence, perhaps the sharks from the ocean theme will start eating people.  Actually, they would most likely attack your family members due to the emotional attachment (rule 3).

There are a great many associations we make with each element or theme, but when multiple elements are in play, it's the associations that all of them have in common that will manifest themselves.  Each additional element you focus on will narrow down the possibilities.


*Psychic Energy?*
These last few posts about "Psychic energy" only illustrate the differences between personal schemata.  I would say The Enterer has a broader and more developed schemata of what psychic energy is, while those riding his ass have a much more simplistic set of associations with the term.  Words are only descriptions, they are not fact.  You have to have some understanding of where people are coming from, and that goes for both sides.

----------


## The Cusp

*Visual Representation Systems*

This seems to be a good follow up to the fourth rule.  Consider the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svjHklQhHpc

According to that vid, people subconsciously look to the top left when remembering something, but look to the top right when required to create a mental image.  This seems to be universal for everyone, and could aid with summoning in dreams.  

If you wanted to summon something from memory, logically, you should try to make it appear on your left side.  You want to create something in a lucid, try to make it appear on your right side.

He also discusses more specific visual patterns (sub-modalities), like how close or how far, how bright/dark, color versus black and white.  How people you like or dislike appear, and specific locations of where they appear in your vision.  If one were to visualize their lucid dream goals while awake before hand, you could note the visual specifics to try and recreate in a dream.  You could create an actual visual mapping system to facilitate you lucid goals.


*Hypnotism*

That first video is in response to Darren Brown's NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) system.  Watch any of the associated vids to get a better understanding of what is happening.  

I've suspected that these rules could be applied to hypnotism, and this Darren Brown guy uses every one of my rules in his techniques.

I consider this next video a great analogy of what happens in dreaming.  What's better is how he applies it to the waking world, seemingly confirming my hypothesis.  They break down how he does it at the end, and it's sheer genius.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=befug...eature=related

----------


## Valwen

"There is nothing you cannot change in a lucid dream."

Given the rules presented in this thread, the above statement is obviously false. We usually take "rules" to mean gravity or the fact that you have to breathe air or whatever, and that can certainly be changed, but the way dreams works cannot be changed. At least I think so. If these rules are not truly absolute above all other aspects of dreaming, then they must not exist in the dreams of one ignorant of these rules (by rule #1), but we can see that they exist in most of the dreams we find in dream journals. In other words, they do not need our attention to exist, conscious or subconscious. 
It's better to term them "models" rather than rules, since they give a good explanation for the way things are, rather than being the stated basis of the way things are. I believe that we have sufficient proof to say that #1 is definitive. From the dream journals of people on this forum, we can see that #1 holds in their dreams, independent of their knowledge of Cusp's models. The fact that they had no conception of these models prior to their dreams shows that the model does not require attention itself to exist; that is, it is a transcendent model. The fact that we can see it manifested in countless dreams verifies that it is indeed a useful model. We can prove that #2 works well as a model by the same logic: that it explains many dreams and that it does not exist "more" as we give more attention to it (thus being transcendent). #3 is more difficult.

----------


## anomanderis

This thread doesn't seem to have developed much since I last visited it about a month ago  :smiley: .
Although the army is not that benevolent to a dreamer, I've had some pretty interesting lucid dreams, one where i might even have met some other individuals, since that was the second time that somebody fought with me by trying to manipulate my attention. They failed and I had a really good time ignoring their feints, only concentrating on "catching" them  :smiley:

----------


## gigaschatten

Here're my 2 cents on it:

*1. Everything in your dreams requires your attention to exist.*

No way to know that. It would be as likely to say that everything that gets attention appears for you or attracts other similar things or things that are somehow related. It is pure speculation to say things require attention to exist. Of course you wouldn't know about the existence of things that you pay no attention to. Attention is a precondition to perceive something, but it is an unfounded conclusion to say that without attention those things would not exist. Yet you could say without knowledge about something, that something does no exist in your world, nevertheless it still might take influence on it.

*2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.*

Again it is impossible to know. When I look at (focus on) something I perceive more detail, just like when I look away, I see no detail. That is easily observable but to conclude that attention _creates_ detail is purely speculative beyond evidence.

----------


## tommo

You know we're talking about dreams right?

----------


## Shift

> You know we're talking about dreams right?



Not everyone thinks dreams are the same thing. And no matter what, he's right. Ignoring chemistry doesn't make it not exist (believe me, I've tried). It's incorrect to state as fact these things that none of us know for sure. We can state them as anecdotal evidence in support of a theory or method, but to say that that's the way things are _is_ wrong. Especially when there is no objective evidence to support it.

----------


## tommo

OMG, we are saying this is true IN DREAMS!
Have you tried to ignore chemistry in dreams?  I doubt it.
Physics? Yes you do every time you dream.  You fly n shit or punch through a brick wall whatever because you forget about physics.
It's just not something to argue about, unless as you say you think dreams are some sort of supernatural thing, but the evidence is still there to prove it right.  How can something your mind creates still be there if you aren't thinking about it, or never have.  Again we're assuming dreams don't come from god.

----------


## spockman

> 1. Everything in your dreams requires your attention to exist.
> 
> No way to know that. It would be as likely to say that everything that gets attention appears for you or attracts other similar things or things that are somehow related. It is pure speculation to say things require attention to exist. Of course you wouldn't know about the existence of things that you pay no attention to. Attention is a precondition to perceive something, but it is an unfounded conclusion to say that without attention those things would not exist. Yet you could say without knowledge about something, that something does no exist in your world, nevertheless it still might take influence on it.
> 
> 2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.
> 
> Again it is impossible to know. When I look at (focus on) something I perceive more detail, just like when I look away, I see no detail. That is easily observable but to conclude that attention creates detail is purely speculative beyond evidence.



For there to be things outside of the dreamers attention there would have to be a dreamscape or alternate reality. 

To assume that things exist outside of ones attention would be to say that thigns can exist in a dreamworld as they do in the physical reality. That is, objectivley. They don't as far as can be gathered about dreams. Until I see otherwise, TheCusp seems spot on.

----------


## The Cusp

I haven't updated this thread in awhile because I've been busy experimenting in my dreams.  Everything I've talked about so far I've verified thoroughly, but as this discussion progressed, I was moving into theoretical areas which I wanted to test out before I came to any conclusions.  It's slow going, but I'm still working on it.

So far the visual techniques have provided me with the best form of control.  Simply looking around is the most powerful form of control you can perform, and you will never gain true control unless you understand that.

I also just applied to be a guest on Coast to Coast AM.  I know George Noory is into dreaming, and the shared dreaming elements as well as applying those rules to the waking world is a perfect topic for that show.  Wish me luck!

----------


## tommo

Sounds good Cusp.  And I agree with the just looking around thing.

Good luck mate!  See if you can get a recording of it.  Post it here.
Good luck!

----------


## Valwen

> Here're my 2 cents on it:
> 
> *1. Everything in your dreams requires your attention to exist.*
> 
> No way to know that. It would be as likely to say that everything that gets attention appears for you or attracts other similar things or things that are somehow related.



You just essentially said rule 2. Rules 1 and 2 can be easily combined to say that attention is a necessary and sufficient condition for existence (existence may also manifest as detail, since detail is merely the existence of more minute objects/smells/feelings/sounds/tastes); that is: attention and only attention will lead to existence. 




> It is pure speculation to say things require attention to exist. Of course you wouldn't know about the existence of things that you pay no attention to. Attention is a precondition to perceive something, but it is an unfounded conclusion to say that without attention those things would not exist. Yet you could say without knowledge about something, that something does no exist in your world, nevertheless it still might take influence on it.



As you said, something that exists might take influence on your world. If things exist outside of your attention, there are most likely a great number of them since it doesn't make much sense that the only thing existing outside of your attention might be a football or something like that (even if there are few things existing outside of your attention, that itself shows their insignificance). If there are a great deal of things existing outside of your attention, it is very likely that at least one thing would somehow influence your world. Thus if you find your world being influenced in a way that doesn't make sense given what you are paying attention to, for instance you're eating dinner and a car drives through the wall, you can conclude that things exist outside of your sphere of attention. If you can find no evidence of such occurrences, you cannot conclude rule 1 absolutely, but with a good amount of certainty, as much as certainty as you may have concluding just about anything about dreaming.






> *2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.*
> 
> Again it is impossible to know. When I look at (focus on) something I perceive more detail, just like when I look away, I see no detail. That is easily observable but to conclude that attention _creates_ detail is purely speculative beyond evidence.



Understanding that detail is ultimately a form of existence can help us understand rule 2. Essentially it says that attention creates existence. Again we see that rules 1 and 2 are reverse sides of the same situation, that existence means attention and that attention means existence.

----------


## gigaschatten

> Again we see that rules 1 and 2 are reverse sides of the same situation, that existence means attention and that attention means existence.



That was my point. There is nothing to know. Tell that to the pink elephant that stands behind you, or isn't it?

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## The Cusp

> As you said, something that exists might take influence on your world. If things exist outside of your attention, there are most likely a great number of them since it doesn't make much sense that the only thing existing outside of your attention might be a football or something like that (even if there are few things existing outside of your attention, that itself shows their insignificance). If there are a great deal of things existing outside of your attention, it is very likely that at least one thing would somehow influence your world. Thus if you find your world being influenced in a way that doesn't make sense given what you are paying attention to, for instance you're eating dinner and a car drives through the wall, you can conclude that things exist outside of your sphere of attention. If you can find no evidence of such occurrences, you cannot conclude rule 1 absolutely, but with a good amount of certainty, as much as certainty as you may have concluding just about anything about dreaming.



I never thought of it like that, that's a good point.

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## spockman

I disagree, Valwen. Not in the conclusion that if one thing exists outside of your attention, then many things do. That is fine logic. What I disagree with, is saying that if you are eating dinner and a car crashes through your window that you can conclude things exist outside of your attention. You most certainly can't conclude that. All it means is that a stray thought conjured up a car. Your dream-world is not an independant holo-deck program. It is not it's own scape, or even some realm that exists in your sub-concious with it's own little realities. At least, I'm fairly certain that it's not. In context of our dreams being synapses and thoughtwaves, something requires our thoughts to exist in a place entirely made of thoughts.

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## The Cusp

> I disagree, Valwen. Not in the conclusion that if one thing exists outside of your attention, then many things do. That is fine logic. What I disagree with, is saying that if you are eating dinner and a car crashes through your window that you can conclude things exist outside of your attention. You most certainly can't conclude that. All it means is that a stray thought conjured up a car. Your dream-world is not an independant holo-deck program. It is not it's own scape, or even some realm that exists in your sub-concious with it's own little realities. At least, I'm fairly certain that it's not. In context of our dreams being synapses and thoughtwaves, something requires our thoughts to exist in a place entirely made of thoughts.



In that scenario, you're eating dinner.  Presumably you have a window for the car to crash through.  What's outside that window; your yard, your driveway (with your car perhaps), and both of these lead to the street which is made for cars...

All it would take is for a noise outside to capture your attention.  Then you listen more to figure out what it is, maybe you hear some tires squawk or an engine.  Mix in an element of tension or danger, and voila, car through the window.  

There is a clear cause and effect chain that is anything but random.  Once you recognize what is happening naturally in a dream, you can use it for control.



*Hell Realms*
I stuck this in the beyond dreaming section, but it really belongs here.  It's about how different people could each individually recreate the same dreamscape.
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=70716

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## Sotik

As a new person to this whole lucid dreaming thing you give great detail on how to control your world when you have a lucid dream. However it also seems like becoming a expert puppet master, sort of speak, is going to take time and practice. One of our human flaws in the waking world is giving to much attention to stuff, so like your bad teeth example. It will be hard to get over that without practice because that's just something that in the waking world everyone does.

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## Sotik

Sorry for the double post, no idea why it did that.

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## ThreeLetterSyndrom

> As a new person to this whole lucid dreaming thing you give great detail on how to control your world when you have a lucid dream. However it also seems like becoming a expert puppet master, sort of speak, is going to take time and practice. One of our human flaws in the waking world is giving to much attention to stuff, so like your bad teeth example. It will be hard to get over that without practice because that's just something that in the waking world everyone does.



I was kinda sarcastic about Dream Control being hard and all. And lo, I was able to control my dream  :tongue2: 

the key is _believe_  :smiley:

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## oniman7

> [/B][/SIZE]
> 
> I attest for the truthfulness of this rule. One of my LD tricks to rid of things is to stop thinking about them and distract my mind with other things. That's how I got rid of a tsunami (which is a recurring theme that I usually have problems with) once, by turning my back on it and thinking of other things. Another time, a huge wild dog-like beast was lunging toward me. It missed, and I didn't turn around and didn't think about it. It just never appeared for a second round. It dissapeared.
> 
> EDIT: I forgot to mention, this rule is often a pain in my butt, as it severely limits the speed at which I can fly. I just can't think up new landscape fast enough to keep up, and very rarely does my subconscious does this job for me. Usually I am left with limited speed (and very limited flight ceiling for that matter), although some flying techniques I've read about on this board helped me somewhat in this regard.
> 
> [/B][/SIZE]



You know, this is part of the theme in the Freddy Krueger series. One of the people mentions that, in some culture, nightmares are regarded as evil spirits and the way to get rid of them is to "turn your back" on them. In the end, the person can't be harmed by Freddy because she "takes" all of the power away that she gave him by ignoring him.

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## The Cusp

If I had to sum up the control techniques I've been trying to explain, it would be "focused awareness".  Even if you're not purposely doing it, it's still happening anyways.  The things you are aware of build your dream world.  So in essence, it's safe to say that dreaming is all about awareness.

Clearly, some people are more aware of their surrounding than others.  I would go so far as to say that those who have a greater awareness are generally more successful in life.  Adults are obviously more aware than children, yet children develop into adults.  Awareness is something that grows with us.  What's important to note there is that it _can_ grow.  It can also decline or be suppressed by things like alcohol.

Lucidity is a byproduct of heightened awareness.

*Naturals * 
So called "natural" lucid dreamers simply have an above average awareness.  But even naturals have room for improvement.  Plus this type of heightend awareness is not neccesarily a constant thing.  It can wax and wane.

*Techniques*
There are a _ton_ of methods to become lucid.  It seems someone invents a new "ILD" method at least once a month, which really cracks me up!  These techniques do work to some degree, but there are so many available to choose from, it can be a daunting task to choose one.

The sheer number of techniques is too messy.  There just shouldn't be that many.  Yet they all do work.  To simplify things, let's consider what they all have in common.  

Be it plain old reality check where you stop to look around, plugging your nose and trying to breath, trying to put your finger through your hand, or waking yourself up to think about lucidity before going back to bed, the one thing they all have in common is that you break away from your regular routine _and become more aware_ for a short period of time.  The varied techniques just give you a focus point for that awareness.

It's this momentary increase of awareness that trains you for lucidity, not the actual technique.  Like with any other muscle in you body, the more you use it, the stronger it becomes.

*Dream Yoga * 
I found out a bit about buddhist dream yoga recently, and at heart, it seems to be just an extended reality check.  Instead of just giving up once know you're not dreaming, you try to sustain that heightened awareness.  It would seem to me to be much more effective than doing a random technique a few times a day.  Going with the muscle training analogy, it's more like a full workout rather than a few sit ups.

When you're getting close...
As your awareness grows closer to the critical mass required for lucidity, you should start to notice signs that your efforts are paying off.  A lot of people get really close without realizing it, which must be really frustrating.  

Here are some signs to watch for that might indicate you're getting close to becoming lucid.

-Talking about lucidity or dreaming with DCs, or even just thinking about it.
-Recognizing that you've dreamed of something before.
-Using powers from previous lucids without being lucid.
-Waking and re-entering the same dream.
-Recognizing that things are weird or not right, but still not getting lucid.

There are a ton more, really it could be anything where you get close to lucid.  Watching for these signs in your dreams can let you know when you're getting close, and a lack of them can let you know when it's time redouble your efforts or try something new.

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## gigaschatten

Very good, just a few comments.





> So in essence, it's safe to say that dreaming is all about awareness.



That applies to anything, so it's not a special trait of dreaming and it's surely not safe to say that "dreaming is all about awareness". _Lucid_ dreaming is about becoming aware of the situation though, that's correct.





> Lucidity is a byproduct of heightened awareness.



I wouldn't say it is a byproduct, I'd rather say it is _exactly_ that: awareness.





> So called "natural" lucid dreamers simply have an above average awareness.



I don't know what makes "naturals", because I am none. Also there may be various reasons why someone "naturally" becomes aware in dreams. I don't think it has to do with different levels of awareness though. What exactly confirms your claim?





> Yet they all do work.



Maybe they do, but most probably not for everyone and the degree of functionality depends on the personality of the user. I just think that should be mentioned.





> It's this momentary increase of awareness that trains you for lucidity, not the actual technique.  Like with any other muscle in you body, the more you use it, the stronger it becomes.



Not necessarily. Often it happens that a working method stops working because it doesn't "break away from your regular routine" anymore, but has become a regular routine itself.

I don't think it's about a "momentary increase of awareness" at all. It's rather about conditioning yourself to become aware by using various triggers (dream signs), prospective memory (as in MILD) or preserving awareness (WILD). Awareness is what you want to have in dreams and it's either present or absent, but not somewhere in between. It's like being dead or alive, either you are or you aren't.

To understand the mechanics of lucidity, all it takes is to study the basic concepts of the different techniques. You will notice it's not all about increasing awareness.





> I found out a bit about buddhist dream yoga recently, and at heart, it seems to be just an extended reality check.



Uhh, the heart of dream yoga is not "just an extended reality check". That is only a prerequisite for dream yoga and it's a type of conditioning. The instruction is to constantly view the world as being made of the same stuff dreams are made of, _not_ about maintaining general awareness. Here's some information on it. Not an easy read though.





> As your awareness grows closer to the critical mass required for lucidity, you should start to notice signs that your efforts are paying off.



I don't think you can actually get "get close to lucid". Either you are lucid or you aren't. In most cases lucidity (as in DILD) is triggered by one special event (e.g. a dream sign) that instantly makes you lucid (aware of your situation). What you list are dreamsigns and yes, of course it's frustrating if they were there and you missed them nevertheless because your conditioning is not strong enough.

One big thing you missed is the importance of dream recall. Without that, it's all in vain.

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## Arutad

@TheCusp

I found a flaw in your theory..

You talk about awareness as being aware of our surroundings. However in dreams we're as much aware of them as in waking life. Lucidity is usually defined as being aware that you're asleep, and I doubt anybody could argue that... So, you get to know that it's a dream and everything is dreamy, that's it. But in what way would you become "more aware" of your surroundings simultaneously?  :smiley:   You'd start seeing more things around or what?  :smiley:  

Not surroundings trigger lucidity, after all, unless you use dream signs as a method...

@gigaschatten




> Awareness is what you want to have in dreams and it's either present or absent, but not somewhere in between. It's like being dead or alive, either you are or you aren't.



Either you're aware that you're asleep or not  :smiley: 

Not 'either you're aware of your surroundings or not'... because you already were.

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## spockman

> However in dreams we're as much aware of them as in waking life.



There are various levels of lucidity. We can be loosely aware, fairly aware, or we can be ware enough to recall everything that had happened the previous day.

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## gigaschatten

> Either you're aware that you're asleep or not



Actually that's what I intended to say. Thanks for confirming that however.

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## Arutad

> Actually that's what I intended to say. Thanks for confirming that however.



I figured that you were, just used your words as a comfortable demonstration  :smiley:

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## transflux

> Are you a person, or a dream of a person, who dreams they aren't in control?



Nicely put! Yet another way to describe the human condition.

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## The Cusp

> @TheCusp
> But in what way would you become "more aware" of your surroundings simultaneously?   You'd start seeing more things around or what?  
> 
> Either you're aware that you're asleep or not







> Awareness is what you want to have in dreams and it's either present or absent, but not somewhere in between. It's like being dead or alive, either you are or you aren't.



Everything that is alive is aware of it's surrounding to some degree.  A person is going to be more aware than something like a worm.   An adult is more aware than a child.  There _are_ varying levels of awareness.   Lucidity is just a road sign to let you know where you are at.  "You are now entering Lucidville, Population: you!"

Ever been in a fight?  In those moments before it happens, when you it's going to go down, you become hyper aware.

Ever been hungover?  No so aware.

Now I'm going to have to write a piece about what awareness is, and that ain't gonna be easy!  Suffice it to say for now that there are different ways to deploy your awareness.  You could have an expanded peripheral vision, zoom in on something in a sort of tunnel vision, become hypersensitive to sounds or smell.  You can focus on one thing so much, it doesn't leave room for you to be aware of anything else. 

For instance, I'm certainly not aware enough at the moment to tackle this subject.  Or perhaps it's just that my thoughts are too scattered at the moment, and I lack the proper focus.  Either way, I'm not ready for this just yet.

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## The Cusp

Magic is using the dream state to your advantage

So far I've tried explain how dream work in general without getting into too many specific methods of control, and also touching on how they might apply to real life.  Now I'd like to do the exact opposite, and show how to use RL methods of control in dreams. 

This stuff is still new to me and I've been having a hard time conceptualizing different ways to focus my awareness.  Fortunately, the idea that reality is a dream is thousands of years old, which has given people plenty of time to figure out how to use it.

Any type of magic that might actually work could only function as the result of life being a dream, and would use the rules of dreaming.  So I'm going to explain how every single type of magic works.  

I don't expect anyone to actually believe me when I say that life is a dream, all I ask is you consider the following an analogy of dream control.  People once believed the sun and moon were gods.  The type of magic I'm talking about here is the kind that can turn a god into a cold rock or ball of burning gas.  Which is still pretty powerful stuff, depending on how you look at it, which is exactly the point.



*Magic, There can be only one...*

Any type of magic that could possibly work in the real world does so only because life is a dream.  Therefore, they should work exceptionally well in dreams.
There weren't as many types of magic as I though there were, but each one makes for a perfect method of exerting control over your dreams.  If you understand what's happening.

*Shamanism.*
Might as well start here, since shamanism is where I learned of LDing.  I'm going to use Carlos Castaneda as an archetype for the genre, which in essence about controlling awareness.  Wether his particular story is true or not, there is a goldmine of info in there on how to skillfully work with awareness.

It does mirror a lot of what I've been trying to explain so far, but is based on the ability to see energy directly.  He also claimed that our wold was just one of many, existing along side each other like the layers of an onion.  The world we inhabit is just the result of a habitual way of deploying our awareness.  I only recently understood that by figuring out how identical hell realms could exist for different people.  

(Hell Realms) http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=70716

One last thing from Castaneda's work I'd like to note is a distinction he makes between the Sorcerers  of Antiquity, and Modern day Sorcerers.  The old school wizards were hellbent on replicable results, and developed overly elaborate rituals and methods to obtain them.  The modern day sorcerers are more about kicking it free style. 


*Make that three...*

*Stage Magic*
Your run of the mill stage magic works pretty much exclusively with the first rule of dreaming. * Everything requires your attention to exist*.  Mix in a bit of redirection, and that's all there is to it really.  



Your dreaming attention is what fills in the blanks for optical illusions, in the exact same manner as things get created in your dreams.  Magic is using the using the dream state to your advantage.  While stage magicians perform mere tricks, there is still some magic in what they do. 


Next we have the three basic types of magic distinguished by anthropologists:
(Italics taken from here: http://www.articleswave.com/articles...-of-magic.html)


_Homeopathic Magic
Homeopathic Magic is based on the assumption that like produces like. It means that if some form of action is performed on something, it will have a same impact on the intended real thing._

This school of magic clearly all about rule 2.
*
2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.*

_Sympathetic Magic or Imitative Magic__
Sympathetic Magic on the core principle that if it is performed on some object(s), the same would happen to the person or object which is under influence. The relation is made between the objects based on the presumption that one can influence something based on the attachment._

This school of magic  takes advantage of the third rule.

*3.  Any new elements or changes follow strict personal schemata and archetypes.* 

These schemata and archetypes are the sum total of links between one main theme or object, and the things related to it that define it.  This school of magic works directly with those links.

*Contagious Magic*
Contagious magic supports the notion that if a person has contact with certain things, they will influence the person who is under contact with those things. The most common example of this type of magic can be seen in use of voodoo dolls. Voodoo dolls are attached with a part of fingernails, hair or teeth of the targeted person. The voodoo doll, then is assumed to be the person himself and it can be used of to hurt the victim. This type of magic falls under black magic, since it is practiced to cause harm or injury to others.

All rules in play for this one.

Rule 1 Everything requires your attention to exist: 
Good focal points to make things real

Rule 2 The more attention you give something, the more related detail it creates: Again good focal points.

Rule 3 Any new elements or changes follow strict personal schemata or archetypes: Obvious associations present.

Rule 4 Strong emotions are a powerful force in shaping your dreams: 
Emotional element Involved.


*Who's counting?  Getting even more specific*

_    * Divination
      Seeing or predicting things under divine influence and intervention._

That definition kind of blends into ESP, so let's take Dowsing as typical example of divination.  Finding water with a stick, classic!  Lets start with an excerpt from this article on brain function to better understand what's happening(http://discovermagazine.com/2009/feb...ing-us-smarter).

_...Whats even more remarkable about our brains is that they actually search for new things to make part of this feedback system. Imagine you are poking a stick into an animals burrow. As you poke away, you are aware of what the far end of the stick is touching, not the end youre holding in your hand. This kind of extended sensation appears to be the result of a reorganization of the brain. Scientists have found that when test monkeys spent five minutes learning how to use a rake, some of the neurons in their hands began behaving in a new way. They began to fire in response to stimuli at the end of the rake, not on the monkeys hand. Other neurons, in the brain, respond to things that appear to lie within arms reach. Training the monkeys to use the rakes caused these neurons to changereacting to objects lying within rakes reach rather than arms reach._

Like the magic wand, or even pointer sticks used in schools, the dowsing rod is simply meant to focus awareness.  Not some mystical magical energy, just plain old awareness.  I think that's why there are so many old paintings of Jesus holding a magic wand.  To show that he was focusing his awareness.  Any of his miracles would be easy to do in a dream.

While following a stick around may seem like a useless dream skill, I think it could be both a useful and fun way of finding things or people in dreams.  Up until now, I haven't come up with a reliable way of finding people for my shared dreaming attempts.  I think using this stick method will help with that big time!


_ * Ceremonial or Ritual
      This depends on religion to religion and is generally performed for both positive and negative purposes. This involves but isn't limited to removal of spirit possession, prosperity, injury to some party or parties, better next life form, etc._

These types of magic work within certain predefined contexts, as allowed by the third rule of dreaming.  People expect magic to follow unchanging physical rules and work like a machine.  But the rules it follows are schemata and archetypes.

Take the Crowley type of cults, Order of the Golden Dawn ect.   It involves reading and memorizing tons of books about gods and demons, which they invoke in their rituals.  It's everyone learning the same stories that creates the common ground where the magic can happen.  Buy building up specific archetypes, they are able to come up with ways to use and manifest them through ritualized focus of their attention.

It's the same kind of magic that allowed for the rise of rap music.  They created a complex culture or system, complete with awareness focusing techniques to make things happen within that system.   Successful hip hop artists are magicians are sorcerers.  Explicit knowledge of that system give them the ability to make things happen within it.

It's basically like a religious person calling of Jesus to save them in a dream.  Of course going to come to someone with a well developed religious archetype.  But you might not always want jesus's pacifist style.  If you were to familiarize yourself with greek mythology, you would have a whole array of gods you could call to, each with unique bents of character and specialties.  If in a dream you have slow legs or need to run faster, invoke Hermes, or even the Flash for that matter.

But it only works if you know hermes is supposed to be fast with those winged sandals on his feet.  If you don't know Thor is the god of thunder, you won't be able to use him to strike down your enemies.  They require a well developed, stable schemata system to function in.  


_  * Thaumaturgy
      Thaumaturgy is a term which denotes the art of magic which invokes supernatural powers_

Good old Invocation!
Equivilant to yelling lucid commands (More light!) but with the power of a god behind them, and is just a more simplistic and focused form or ritual.  Lucid commands fail because you have no well developed precedents for doing impossible things to draw on.  Invoking specific gods, saints, whatever with a solid background to them is a lot more reliable.


_ * ESP
      ESP is the power to perceive things which are not present to the senses_

That definition is a little vague as well.  But it seems to be awareness focused in a certain way and the good old dream rules.  Remote viewing could be explained by the second dream rule, the more attention you give something, the more related detail it creates.  Which describes precisely what happens with remote viewing. 


_ * Theurgy
      Theurgy is a part of white magic performed with the help of spirits. It is basically performed by Neoplatonists to bring in supernatural or divine intervention in human affairs._

Another form of Invocation within predefined set of archtypes.


_ * Tantra
      Tantra was introduced by Hindu and Buddhist religions. Tantra involves use of elements such as mantras and mudras (spells) from Vedas (sacred texts) recited for getting things done magically._

An even more basic form of Invocation, functioning in much less developed, simpler archtypes. 


_   * Voodooism
      Voodooism is a religious cult which involves use of voodoo dolls, witchcraft and animistic deities for inflicting effects on selected targets._

Voodoo in and interesting one in that it's so brutally simple and direct.  I find voodoo one of the best schools of magic that applies directly to dreaming, and it uses all four rules very well.

First you have the freaky fetishes that are meant to capture and focus your attention.  They are usually made from bone, feathers, dead things, invoking the image of death and using the emotion fear to fuel the magic.  Voodoo dolls are a mere focus point for your attention as well.    

They say voodoo only affects you if you believe in it.  That's not quite true.  It only affects you if you focus on it.    That's why the general tools of voodoo are somewhat theatric in nature.  You don't need to believe you've been cursed, but if you think about it all the time, that is the curse.


_  * Alchemy
      More than magic, alchemy was considered to be a science, very rare people new during medieval times. Alchemy was supposedly performed by alchemists who had the ability to turn ordinary metals into gold._

There's a lot of hogwash out there when it comes to alchemy.  First, it's lead into gold, then nooooo, it's transmuting yourself, then there's all this philosopher's stone crap.   None if it sounds like dreaming to me, but the general theme of alchemy is transmutation.

Transmutation makes a pretty kick ass dream skill, but I don't know enough about alchemy to find anything that applies to dreaming.  I guess intense emotions would be the best way way to transmute things.

Although if you're into Calvin and Hobbes, you should have enough of a well developed schemata in that area to make a working Trangmografier in your dreams.


_ * Necromancy
      Necromancy involves conjuring up the dead for prophesying or delivering a sermon. Necromancy is performed along with use of evil spirits to produce supernatural effects in the world._

Ok, I don't know how reanimating corpses has anything to do with dreamng.  I suppose it could be a fun in a dream, but not very productive or useful overall.  An undead army could come in useful now and again, but they are just as likely to turn on you.  Plus it implies even worst things for them to fight.  

I will say this about zombies, they don't reproduce through infection, bites or viral diseases.  They multiply through attention they command, which is true in dreams, in movies, and even accounts for the existence of so many zombie movies.

As for working with dark spirits, just more invocation within a predefined system.


_ * Occult
      Occult means beyond ordinary understand and which is difficult and hidden to see. Chaldean, in the occult philosophy is referred to the person skilled in occult learning._

Well, that's a little general to work with.  But then I guess it can be difficult to see how life is a dream.


*   *Prayer*
Same as most of the other magics, invocation within a predefined system.


*Conclusions*

-Devices that focus your attention in dreams can be useful.  Using a magic wand as a general purpose tool while dreaming should in theory make everything easier.

-Taking advantage of well established systems and archetypes will greatly increase the chance of success for whatever you are trying to accomplish.  They can also provide links to things that might not otherwise be accessible to you.

-Understand how focusing your awareness, like on a voodoo doll, fetish or totem, affects dreams through the second and third rule of dreaming.  It doesn't have to be a voodoo item, it can be anything in your field of vision.  


There was too much ground to cover here to go into as much detail as I would have liked, but I'll be happy to answer any questions.

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## Phantasos

Great article. You should insert link at the end of first article to it. 

It is funny, today I was reading pantheon of Greek mythology to refresh my knowledge in this area - with exact goal to use it in dreams somehow to my advantage.

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## The Cusp

Here's an article on attention.

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2...ntionlost.html

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## The Cusp

A couple more articles.

Attention and Awareness in Magic: Turning tricks into science
http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/va...l/nrn2473.html

Magic tricks reveal gaze and attention not always linked.
http://bps-research-digest.blogspot....ction-and.html

And this short video, The psychology of attention in magic.
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/blog/...gic-18398.html

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## The Cusp

Some common advice on dream control is to be confident in what you're doing.  I've never understood how you are supposed to be confident.  I always thought of it as something you do, like straightening your back and speaking in a certain manner.

I now realize confidence is an emotion, and treating it as such makes it an all purpose tool for dream control.  Again, the stronger the emotion, the more effect it's going to have.  

Should work for RL as well.  

Was an epiphany for me, just never thought of it as an emotion before.  Another weapon to add to my emotional arsenal.

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## my car

great work.

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## The Cusp

I saw the movie Paycheck for the first time last night, and it's all about the kind of dream control I've been trying to explain.  Actually, it only uses the second rule of dreaming, the more attention you give something, the more related detail it creates.

Ben Affleck even sums it up once he figures out what's going on, saying something like "By getting me to focus on certain objects, it changes the outcome."

I don't want to ruin the plot for anyone who hasn't seen it, but that movie is a lesson in using the second rule of dreaming for control.  It's what the entire plot is based on.

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## The Cusp

In light of what I've learned from RL magics, mainly they all take advantage of schemata in some form, lets take a another look at what happens when you do a reality check.  Say you decide to do a reality check every time you walk through a door.

Remember, we're working with systems of associations that define things.  For a door, you have the door frame, a door knob, maybe a lock, different styles of door and different materials, wood, metal.  The sum total of these things is your conception of what a door is.  There are major and minor associations, for instance a door is almost always going to be in a wall, but it might not always have a christmas wreath hanging on it.

What happens when you do RCs everytime you pass through a door is that you begin to forge a new association for the concept of door.  A link to lucid dreaming.  The goal is to make LDing as much a part of the concept of door as a door knob is.  Hell, if you can make it the main purpose for a door's existence, so much the better.

When you dream of a door, it automatically gets assembled according to your own personal concept of a door.  By altering that conception and making LDing an integral part of it, it also creates opportunities for you to become lucid.

So doing occasional reality checks is not really enough, you can never look at a door in the same way again if you really want it to be effective.  You have to fundametally alter what a door means to you.  Which is pretty much the basis behind most of those types of magic I went through earlier.

----------


## Phantasos

Well, thanks Cusp for the article and the this tech. 

First thanks goes for an idea to adopt a some magical system. As it was stated in another article about dream control on this forum, direct control (i.e. thinking "it is just a dream, so I can do what I want") is bad, so we (my subconcious and I) have to make an agreement that I am mage (obviously, it is obvious  ::wink::  ). First idea was to adopt something from Greek mythology (as I am Phantasos after all), but at the end it was decided that Rune magic will do better. 

Second thanks for "Magical door tech". I will include it in the second stage of my LD training schedule. Seems like it should help  :smiley: .

----------


## The Rhino

> As you can see for two simple rules, it sure gets complicated pretty fast.  The Secret left _a lot_ stuff out.  I've been putting off getting into the kind of RL existence confusion above, because it's equivalent aspect in dreaming is *Shared Dreaming*.  And the last thing I want is for this thread to be buried in the beyond dreaming section.  I'm going to have to get into that eventually, but I'd like to get a few more constructive posts in on it's dreaming applications before I completely ruin this thread's credibility.



Thanks for that giggle.

----------


## The Cusp

*Containers*

I've stumbled upon another little dream control gem.  Haven't used it enough to master it as of yet, but I think I've got a grasp on the general concept.

Nothing in dreams is independent, everything is connected to something else in some fashion.  People usually don't just dream of vampires, first they dream of a spooky old mansion or castle, which then leads to the vampires (RL influences aside).  The beach sand you walk on in a dream of the ocean is not independent, it's fundamentally linked to the ocean.  Or both the ocean and beach can be viewed as individual elements of an nautical theme.

When trying to exert control over a dream, sometimes it's best not to treat what you are trying to control as an individual element, but to think of it as part of something else.  

Say you have a glass of water, and you want to move the water to the other side of the room.  Trying to pick up and move just the water is going to be almost impossible.  It's much simpler just to pick up the glass that contains the water and carry that across the room.

The same holds true for dreams. I'm at a loss to come up with specific dream examples, as the dreams I had on the subject were very confusing, but that's how it works.  It's basically just a little shift in the way you conceptualize things, but it opens up a lot of finesse for dream control.

Perhaps you'd dream you're in a classic hell scenario.  Instead of battling each of the countless demons individually, you could just freeze hell over, taking care of all of them at once.  Just like carrying the glass of water.



And on an unrelated note, the Feb 27th Coast to Coast AM show got into dreaming, and the guest Rosemary Ellen Guiley really knows her stuff when it comes to dreaming.  I was seriously impressed.  Her website gets into all kinds of fringe stuff, but damn that woman knows her dreaming.  She even got into shared dreaming!

----------


## FunKtion

OK i have tried to read through all 11 pages of this thread b4 replying...

My main Crit is that:

Rule #4: There is no random in dreaming. All changes and newly created dream elements follow our own personal schemata and archetypes without exception. 

is wrong ... 

Shouldn't it be ;

Dreams and dream elements can be produced either by our subconscious (normal dreaming) or by our conscious mind (lucid dreaming).

If you want to create a complete model of dreaming there are probably a few obvious but elementary factors you should note...

----------


## FunKtion

Also, on point 3;

3. Strong emotions have a devastating effect on everything around you.

I find that in life i am not emotionaly driven. Someone can do something really annoying like being late and i will happily say "nevermind". The only emotions i fell are a deep happiness and anxiety. I would like to say i only feel happiness and a deep sense of fullfillment but i do feel anxiety when going for job interviews .etc. i do find this internal happiness to be a great factor in my life and i would suggest anyone to pursue it. It will change your life. Dont let emotions rule your life, its immature.

FunK

----------


## The Cusp

> My main Crit is that:
> 
> Rule #4: There is no random in dreaming. All changes and newly created dream elements follow our own personal schemata and archetypes without exception. 
> 
> is wrong ... 
> 
> Shouldn't it be ;
> 
> Dreams and dream elements can be produced either by our subconscious (normal dreaming) or by our conscious mind (lucid dreaming).
> ...



I don't see how your point differs from mine.  Both the conscious and subconscious assemble dreams in the same manner, by using archetypes.  Since this happens naturally in normal dreams, or subconscious dreams, I'm trying to illustrate how to use that in lucid or conscious dreams.

I just read something about three major types of archetypes.  Personal archetypes, which hold meaning only to you, Social Archetypes, which hold meaning to a specific group of people, and Universal Archetypes, which are pretty much the same for everyone.  

I think it's important to make the distinction as to which type you're trying to use in a dream, as each one has different implications.

----------


## cam666

i read all of it. excellently articulated. so many of my thoughts on the questions of dreaming spellout for me in a few pages worth of info. very well done.
and the totality of existance, as you hinted towards earlier up, yields great contemplation too. havent formed a concrete thought about it yet

----------


## The Cusp

Thanks for the praise and the bump Cam.


Anyone watch the TV show Fringe?  Last night's episode entitled "Bad Dreams" was about exercising emotional dream control.  I couldn't have asked for a better demonstration of how it works.  Even if you don't watch Fringe, that episode is worth finding if you're interested in dream control.

Actually the character in question had a decided lack of control, like someone in a regular non lucid dream, and his emotions influenced the behavior of everyone around him, _exactly_ like it happens in dreams.

I recently learned the difference between REM dreams and non REM dreams.  It seems non REM dreams we are less prone to having strong emotions than in REM dreams, where strong emotions run rampant.  Of course that distinction is not absolute, it is possible to induce strong emotions in NREM dreams.  It's just that generally speaking, dreamers in NREM experience a low emotional state.  Which is just as well when you look at what happened to that guy on Fringe last night, also considering the majority of dreams happen in a non rem state.

----------


## Mzzkc

I don't watch Fringe regularly, but my suitemate does. I saw last night's episode, though, and couldn't help thinking about this thread in particular.

And, yeah, this thread kicks ass.

I do have one gripe, though. In your theory that this reality is simply one giant shared dream, how does death play into that? The more I think about it, the less the concept of death, and dying, fits in with the rules. I would go into more detail, but I would like to know your thoughts on this matter first.

----------


## The Cusp

Death?  Well you see... Ummmmm... Uhhhh...   Pfffft, I don't know.  Never really gave it any thought.

Perhaps it giving up, where you no longer have the desire to sustain certain things with your attention.  With sudden death it would be grievous wounds, with old age it would be your broken down body, and with suicide it would be all those shitty things you make bigger than life by focusing on them too much.

After death?  Maybe you find new things to focus on? Slip into another dream like the transition between sleep and waking?

Ask me again after I'm dead.

----------


## Mzzkc

> Ask me again after I'm dead.



This is the only answer I could have really hoped for. 

There are obviously too many unknowns. If I continued with my argument, it would bring even more unanswerable, off topic, questions into play. The big ones are the questions of 'self' and consciousness, and how the attentions of others play into that.

However, I don't believe those specific topics are out of the scope of this thread. For example, I could easily tie them into the whole Fringe discussion, but better safe than sorry methinks.

----------


## ChaybaChayba

Love your thread Cusp, it only keeps getting better and better, this is were all the true info on dreaming can be found! This is on a totally different level than all those other tutorials, compared to them you're like the Einstein of dreaming and they are the scientists from the dark ages.. be careful to not get burned on the stake someday tho..  lol.

----------


## oniman7

It's amazing that this thread is still going strong after a year. I've been subscribed to this forum for a couple of months now, and I must say, The Cusp did a great job. Anyways, I was reading a book. ( Life, the Universe, and Everything. It's the third book in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series by Douglas Adams ). The guide has a little something to say about flying (you'll see the relevancy later). "Flying is an art. Or rather, a knack. The knack lies in learning to throw yourself forward and miss the ground". This is achieved by distracting  (a synonym for diverting your attention. That's the first coincidence). Later on, by pure chance, the main character figures out he is flying. He figures out that he must NOT focus on the fact that he is flying, or doubt that he is. It also helps to focus on other objects in the scenery. It almost seems to me like a lucid dream. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Douglas Adams was a natural Lucid Dreamer. Another thing I found interesting was that he used flying, which is a large goal for many lucid dreamers. The book was written in the 80's, so not nearly as much was known (or was easily accessible) about lucid dreaming. I hope you understood with all the parentheses.

----------


## midgitmage

Anyone have any thoughts on whether emotions are something that require your attention to exist, or whether they they are independent entities?

----------


## moonshine

I really feel that the initial sections were very interesting and worthwhile.

Later additions, delving deeper into Magic, Psychic Energy, Living dream characters etc just rankle me. 

It almosts feels like one of those cults where your told a few things that seem to make sense about your general well being, http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...07&postcount=1  then BAM suddenly your souls are made from ancient space aliens and Tom Cruise is your best pal.  http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...&postcount=175

My understanding is that the primary sections of DV are focused on practical aspects and science of lucid dreaming, which should be respected. 

It seems to me that vunerable newbies, filled with the wonder and awe of lucid dreaming, might be all to ready to attach spiritual significance to dreams. Something they might not do when armed with more information and experience. 

Personal beliefs, spirituality, religion and all that stuff is absolutely fine, but there is a dedicated space for discussion of the same.

----------


## Arutad

> Anyone have any thoughts on whether emotions are something that require your attention to exist, or whether they they are independent entities?



Independent I think, but can be influenced to a small extent. Usually they're influenced only by suppression, though.  :Sad: 






> It seems to me that vunerable newbies, filled with the wonder and awe of lucid dreaming, might be all to ready to attach spiritual significance to dreams. Something they might not do when armed with more information and experience. 
> 
> Personal beliefs, spirituality, religion and all that stuff is absolutely fine, but there is a dedicated space for discussion of the same.



QFT +1

----------


## ChaybaChayba

Oh uh.. Moonshine and Arutard made it in this beautiful thread. Please don't argue with them as they will spam it and ruin it completely.

----------


## DrewFever

> Oh uh.. Moonshine and Arutard made it in this beautiful thread. Please don't argue with them as they will spam it and ruin it completely.



They both had good points though.

----------


## The Cusp

> They both had good points though.



What, that people aren't smart enough the think for themselves?  

Even the more questionable aspects of this thread were valid metaphors for dream control.

Besides, it's too late to debate that now.  This thread has been hovering around the top page of this subsection for over a year now, and with over 17000 views, the "damage" is already done.

----------


## moonshine

> What, that people aren't smart enough the think for themselves?  
> 
> Even the more questionable aspects of this thread were valid metaphors for dream control.
> 
> Besides, it's too late to debate that now.  This thread has been hovering around the top page of this subsection for over a year now, and with over 17000 views, the "damage" is already done.



A significant proportion of the discussions are unquestionably "beyond dreaming". 

DV makes an effort to seperate what science has proven and understood from what amounts to - at best - "personal belief systems".  

In my view we shouldn't be contaminating the main boards with this these kind of discussions. People will be even less likely to accept Lucid Dreaming as legitimate if the boards are contaminated with Spiritual and Cultish chatter. 

DV has provided a sub-forum for those who wish to indulge in the same.
The respectful thing to do would be to make use of that forum, instead of taking a strange delight (ChaybaChayba!) in the fact that some benefit of the doubt has been given. Up until now.

----------


## Phantasos

> DV makes an effort to seperate what science has proven and understood from what amounts to - at best - "personal belief systems".



Well, as a side note it have to be said, that Lucid dreaming is (at the best) barely proven (but not universally recognized) and obviously not understood at all. And most of the "skeptics" when judging this or that thing on this topic are actually do not really know the science between dreams or brain, and have to rely on personal belief system which may or may not resemble actual state of matters in said science fields.

----------


## The Cusp

> A significant proportion of the discussions are unquestionably "beyond dreaming". 
> 
> DV makes an effort to seperate what science has proven and understood from what amounts to - at best - "personal belief systems".  
> 
> In my view we shouldn't be contaminating the main boards with this these kind of discussions. People will be even less likely to accept Lucid Dreaming as legitimate if the boards are contaminated with Spiritual and Cultish chatter. 
> 
> DV has provided a sub-forum for those who wish to indulge in the same.
> The respectful thing to do would be to make use of that forum, instead of taking a strange delight (ChaybaChayba!) in the fact that some benefit of the doubt has been given. Up until now.



I get a kick out of how much this thread offends you.

Try using this next time...

----------


## moonshine

> I get a kick out of how much this thread offends you.
> 
> Try using this next time...



Offended? I'd say concerned was more accurate. 

To be honest, I think that what you really get a kick out of is the fact that  your clearly intentional bait and switch seems to have muddied the waters enough to keep this thread from being moved. 

Which, lets be honest, isn't the same as validating talk of dream walkers etc.

----------


## LightningMunk

I found this site about vitamin B6
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...rient&dbid=108

And I quote near the bottom:





> What are toxicity symptoms for vitamin B6?
> 
> Imbalances in nervous system activity have been shown to result from high levels of supplemental vitamin B6 intake. These imbalances do not seem to occur until supplementation exceeds 2 grams per day. The National Academy of Sciences has set a Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for vitamin B6 of 100 milligrams for adults 19 years and older, largely based on the issue of imbalanced nervous system activity described above.



and i am over 19, so i guess it means only 100 mg a day, and that 2,000 milligrams is when u notice those imbalances, so i think if you are wanting to try vitamin b6, i would say just take the 100 mg pill, and maybe like a glass of apple juice and a banana before you go to sleep, and see that works

...just my guess cuz i really wanted to try b6 but i was afraid of toxicity levels and having it mess up my body. but looks good with what they said  ::D:  any comments?

----------


## Mzzkc

Lawl, what?

----------


## LightningMunk

wrong section posted in  :tongue2:  had too many DreamView windows up lol

----------


## moonshine

> Oh uh.. Moonshine and Arutard made it in this beautiful thread. Please don't argue with them as they will spam it and ruin it completely.



The fact is, if you can't accept criticism or debate theres a place where you can discuss your beliefs.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=46286





> 'Beyond Dreaming' was not created for debate, but rather, it exists for members who believe in the sort of topics that fit into its scope (such as OBEs, dream precognition, astral projection, etc.) to have peaceful discussions amongst themselves. I understand many of us don't believe in the material that fits within that forum (myself included) but enough people do that we have given them their own forum to discuss it. For those who doubt and would prefer debate the truth behind such phenomenon, I would suggest using other forums (such as 'Extended Discussion'), since, quite frankly, you're not discussing anything "beyond dreaming" but rather using science and natural laws instead.
> 
> This forum is not here so that members who feel like denouncing every topic that appears in here can do so. If you want to state your beliefs (or lack thereof) on a subject then do so in a civil and considerate manner; do not continue to create needless fights. There is no reason to continue to tell every member who posts in the Beyond Dreaming forum about astral projection [for example] that it doesn't exist. This forum is for those people who believe in that stuff to discuss it peacefully and without condemnation. Remember that.



DV moderators have been respectful enough to provide this service. 
Its a shame that certain posters don't have enough respect to make use of the facility. 

For some reason the MODS have yet to move this thread. 

In the meantime, if you insist on posting in these forums, you're assertions are open to criticism and debate.

----------


## The Cusp

Lol, I really appreciate you bumping this thread for me Moonshine.  They say there's no such thing as bad publicity.  I say everything requires your attention to exist.

You'll be happy to know I'm working on a "clean" version of this tutorial.  In the meantime, if you'd care to debate any aspects of this thread you don't agree with, please feel free to do so.  But to bash the whole thing on principle alone makes me suspect you're harboring resentment because of the argument we had over non-rem dreams.

----------


## moonshine

> Lol, I really appreciate you bumping this thread for me Moonshine.  They say there's no such thing as bad publicity.  I say everything requires your attention to exist.



Not sure of your point cusp. Though if you are actually happy I've bumped this thread, then you seem to prove one of my points. 





> To be honest, I think that what you really get a kick out of is the fact that  your clearly intentional bait and switch seems to have muddied the waters enough to keep this thread from being moved.








> You'll be happy to know I'm working on a "clean" version of this tutorial.  In the meantime, if you'd care to debate any aspects of this thread you don't agree with, please feel free to do so.  But to bash the whole thing on principle alone makes me suspect you're harboring resentment because of the argument we had over non-rem dreams.



Thanks for your permission.  ::roll:: 
Clearly the aspects of the thread I don't like are the beyond dreaming topics.
As well as the sly way they were introduced. 

I enjoyed our debate over NREM dreams. 
There nothing wrong with having your assertions challenged and tested. 

Something a few "believers" could do with learning.

----------


## spockman

> For some reason the MODS have yet to move this thread.



Because the tutorial itself is fairly grounded. It just left openings for some BD topics. It's a good tutorial and has been helpful to me in LDing, as it has to many others. If it was moved to BD most people would not have gotten that. (I wouldn't have.) It's not as if BD topics can't come up in the other threads, (if it relates to the thread,)! They just shouldn't be a main topic of discussion, I should think.


But I agree that NS/DW are fairly off topic here.

----------


## moonshine

> Because the tutorial itself is fairly grounded. It just left openings for some BD topics. It's a good tutorial and has been helpful to me in LDing, as it has to many others. If it was moved to BD most people would not have gotten that. (I wouldn't have.) It's not as if BD topics can't come up in the other threads, (if it relates to the thread,)! They just shouldn't be a main topic of discussion, I should think.
> 
> 
> But I agree that NS/DW are fairly off topic here.



The way I read the thread, it was the Cusps deliberate intent to lay the ground work before bringing in the dream walker whammy. 

I agree with you on the original tutorial. In point of fact, I'm sure there's sensible advice in other dreaming sub-cultures. The trick is to extract the useful information, and to assess it rationally.  

The whole thread need not be moved. Just the suspect posts.

----------


## The Cusp

Give it a rest Moonshine, nobody's moving anything.

I didn't plan this as a nefarious plot to sneak in the concept of shared dreaming.  But I don't feel that I came up with those ideas for dream control on my own as much as I'd like to take credit for them.  So I had to mention where the inspiration came from.  I wanted to be honest even at the risk of sounding crazy.

You're starting to sound like one of those militant vegans who try to browbeat everyone into seeing things their way.

----------


## moonshine

> Give it a rest Moonshine, nobody's moving anything.



So are you adding clairvoyance to your list of powers now?  :smiley: 






> I didn't plan this as a nefarious plot to sneak in the concept of shared dreaming.  But I don't feel that I came up with those ideas for dream control on my own as much as I'd like to take credit for them.  So I had to mention where the inspiration came from.  I wanted to be honest even at the risk of sounding crazy.



I'm not convinced. Theres a difference between mentioning where you learned the info, and laying out the nightstalkers legend. 

...and then dream sharing. 
...and psychic energy. 
...then magic, shamanism and wizards.

Just sayin'





> You're starting to sound like one of those militant vegans who try to browbeat everyone into seeing things their way.



Uh huh. Burn the heretic.  ::whyohwhy:: 

I look forward to your "clean" tutorial. I honestly think you do yourself a disservice by shoehorning in occult aspects into what might otherwise be very useful advice.

----------


## The Cusp

> So are you adding clairvoyance to your list of powers now?



In the thousands of years mankind has observed the various mountain ranges on the earth, never once have those mountains gotten up and danced the Macarena.  Is it not a logical deduction to assume they are not going to get up and dance the Macarena anytime soon?





> I'm not convinced. Theres a difference between mentioning where you learned the info, and laying out the nightstalkers legend. 
> 
> ...and then dream sharing. 
> ...and psychic energy. 
> ...then magic, shamanism and wizards.
> 
> Just sayin'



I don't recall mentioning anything about psychic energy.  As for the rest, sure, but you present it out of context.  The only point I was trying to make was that those rules of dreaming seem apply to the waking world as well, which would imply that the waking world is nothing more than a dream.

As much as you may claim to disagree with that statement, here you are using those very rules in a RL scenario against me.

*1.  Everything requires you attention to exist.*

That also implies that if you don't give something attention, it will cease to exist.

You're only focusing on the more outlandish sounding aspects of this thread while ignoring the more pertinent points.  I've invited you to debate these things, but you doggedly refuse to acknowledge anything beyond your narrow point of view.

*2.  The more attention you give something, the more related detail it creates.*

In every post you've made so far, you're just repeating yourself, adding nothing new or relevant to the discussion.

*3.  All change and new elements introduced strictly follow archetypes or schemata.*

You're attempting to _transmute_ this thread into something it's not by _invoking_ the generalized archetype of psychic phenomena with all it's associated ridicule.  

*4.  Strong emotions have a devastating effect on shaping your immediate environment.*

Your derisive attitude is the icing on the cake.


Well done!  You might have succeeded against someone not as well versed in the subjective nature of reality, but in this thread you attempts are akin to pissing in the ocean.

----------


## moonshine

> The only point I was trying to make was that those rules of dreaming seem apply to the waking world as well, which would imply that the waking world is nothing more than a dream.



If that is truly your only point, then this thread should most definitely 
be moved to Beyond Dreaming.

----------


## The Cusp

> If that is truly your only point, then this thread should most definitely 
> be moved to Beyond Dreaming.



Then why don't you try holding your breath until that happens?





> DV makes an effort to seperate what science has proven and understood from what amounts to - at best - "personal belief systems".



This thread is at heart all about personal belief systems.  They are an integral part of dreaming, and you can't study dreaming without taking that into account.





> Love your thread Cusp, it only keeps getting better and better, this is were all the true info on dreaming can be found! This is on a totally different level than all those other tutorials, compared to them you're like the Einstein of dreaming and they are the scientists from the dark ages.. be careful to not get burned on the stake someday tho.. lol.



Your being burned at the stake analogy is very fitting all of a sudden.  Moonshine is certainly trying...

----------


## kellywowo

how do i redream a dream ????. Please reply xxXxX

----------


## The Cusp

> how do i redream a dream ????. Please reply xxXxX



Just think about it as you're falling asleep.  Try to remember as much detail as possible, like you're about to write it down in you DJ.

Happens to me quite often when I'm too lazy to get out of bed to take notes on the dream.  I try to memorize the details as I drift off and usually end up continuing the dream.

HypnOgogic Imagery could interfere with that process by introducing other random themes, so it's not 100% guaranteed to work.  But then again you don't always go through the HI stage, so if you keep at it you should be able to re-enter the dream eventually.

----------


## moonshine

> Then why don't you try holding your breath until that happens?



 ::D:  I've another idea. Why don't you stop giving me attention and see if I cease to exist?  :wink2: 






> This thread is at heart all about personal belief systems.  They are an integral part of dreaming, and you can't study dreaming without taking that into account.



Well, you can actually. Which was why the beyond dreaming section was created.

----------


## The Cusp

> I've another idea. Why don't you stop giving me attention and see if I cease to exist?



Actually, it's high time I do just that.  If I hadn't bothered to respond to any of your posts, you wouldn't still be posting this crap.

Like I do with annoying DCs, I'm now going to ignore you into oblivion.  Not literally of course, but you're not worthy of my attention, so for all intents and purposes, you no longer exist to me.  At least in this thread.  I may still burn you when you start spouting your crap in other threads.  It's just too easy and hard to resist.

----------


## Arutad

Why nobody is criticizing the basic points of this thread? I think that the attention theory is incorrect. But as there are no criticisms, it looks like it falls to me to criticize.





> *Everything in your dreams requires your attention to exist.*



That's untrue.

Consider all those cases when you were doing something, and then suddenly a dream character would walk up to you whom you haven't seen anywhere in the vicinity previously. Where did he come from? He certainly didn't require your attention to become existent, he simply appeared and started to act without your invitation.

Therefore it's not true that everything in a dream requires your attention to exist. Many elements of a dream are enacted subconsciously, and whatever made them existent and whatever makes them act in certain ways is out of control and doesn't operate through your attention.

It's true that it's possible to make things non-existent by ignoring them in a LD. However the notion of stopping something to exist by ignoring it isn't related to attention. It's related to a subconscious belief that if you stop seeing something in a dream, it will vanish. If you had a different belief, things would be different. Take a person in this thread who made a tsunami disappear by ignoring it, it's obvious that it worked this way because he expected it to work this way. In other words, it's normal dream control, you achieve what you expect to achieve. That doesn't tell us anything about objective rules of attention, neither that it's involved in any way at all.





> *The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.*



So for testing purposes I stared at my hand during a LD. I stared at it and stared, and it proceeded to look the same. I stared more and more, then considerably more, and finally my little finger changed its color slightly.

So, it kind of "proves" that giving a lot of attention to something produces new details related to it, but I didn't notice enough details to speak of. Therefore it's wrong that the more attention you give something, the more details it produces.

In fact, this method proves that it works in an opposite way: it made my hand look like the normal hand for a considerably longer time that it would if I didn't stare at it uninterruptedly! My last statement can easily be checked by looking away from something in a dream for a while and then looking back at it, in this case the object you looked at will show new details or will otherwise be changed. Interruption does introduce new details, but uninterrupted staring impedes this process.

----------


## The Cusp

> Originally Posted by The Cusp
> 
> Everything requires your attention to exist.
> 
> 
> 
> That's untrue.
> 
> Consider all those cases when you were doing something, and then suddenly a dream character would walk up to you whom you haven't seen anywhere in the vicinity previously. Where did he come from? He certainly didn't require your attention to become existent, he simply appeared and started to act without your invitation.



If it wasn't true, then that would imply that the dream world is a stable world just like RL.  _That_ is clearly untrue.

Those dream characters that appear from nowhere do not have a previous history or existence, except for recurring characters.  

Where did they come from?  They were spawned from personal archetypes or schemata.  They did not exist before you layed eyes on them or otherwise conceived of them in some dark corner of your mind.





> Therefore it's not true that everything in a dream requires your attention to exist. Many elements of a dream are enacted subconsciously, and whatever made them existent and whatever makes them act in certain ways is out of control and doesn't operate through your attention.



The initial posts I made in this thread were far from complete, so perhaps I wasn't very clear initially.  Your attention is merely the trigger or catalyst.  What it triggers are archetypes, so focusing on the ocean for instance could yield anything form sea monsters to tidal waves, anything you associate with the ocean.

There is a lot of randomness involved in which direction those archetypes might go, but emotions do limit the range of possibilities.





> If you had a different belief, things would be different. Take a person in this thread who made a tsunami disappear by ignoring it, it's obvious that it worked this way because he expected it to work this way. In other words, it's normal dream control, you achieve what you expect to achieve.



Saying what you expect to happen actually happens is the single biggest misconception about LDing there is.  Even the most experienced LDers experience countless failures while attempting things.  If they didn't expect those things to work, they never would have tried it in the first place.

It's not expectations that limit people, it's archetypes.  I'm reminded of one of TwoShadows' LDs, where she repeatedly tried to pass through a solid wall but kept smashing into it (that image cracks me up!).  It wasn't her expectations that failed her, she tried like hell.  It was the well developed archetype that solid objects are just that, solid.

In order to override that particular hurdle, one would need to supercede that archetype of solid matter with one of something less substantial like mist, or something equally relevant to that individual.  A physicist might use the space between particles, while someone into astral projection might use the insubstantial astral body.

Saying control relies on expectations is close, yet innacurate.






> So for testing purposes I stared at my hand during a LD. I stared at it and stared, and it proceeded to look the same. I stared more and more, then considerably more, and finally my little finger changed its color slightly.



What did you expect to happen?  You succeded in producing a change in the color of your finger.  Hands are a fairly stable archetype.  Had you been prone to warts in RL, you might have seen warts.  But we experience very few variations in the appearance of our hands throughout our lifetimes.  Perhaps if you had focused on the discoloration in your finger and then checked the rest of your body, you might have seen discolorations on the rest of your body as well.

The very first time I looked at my hands in a dream (and only time) I saw various things flashing in and out of existance in the palms of my hands like flipping through the pages of a book, like when you make animations in the corners and flip the pages.  There was money, keys, sticks of gum, food, everything and anything I might possibly hold in my hands.  That's what an archetype is, the sum total of associations with a certain subject or idea.

I appreciate your attempt at trying this out, but that one example is like saying just because you saw one car on fire, that all cars catch on fire.

I've experimented with this thouroghly in several lucids, as well poured over other people's DJs.  Next time instead of your hands, try looking at some squirming insects, even better if they are stinging insects, and see how fast they multiply.  The classic tooth dream is a great example if a rather extreme one.  





> In fact, this method proves that it works in an opposite way: it made my hand look like the normal hand for a considerably longer time that it would if I didn't stare at it uninterruptedly! My last statement can easily be checked by looking away from something in a dream for a while and then looking back at it, in this case the object you looked at will show new details or will otherwise be changed. Interruption does introduce new details, but uninterrupted staring impedes this process.



There, you've said it yourself, you didn't allow for any dramatic change to occur.  You were limited to the first rule that everything requires your attention to exist, thereby maintaining a solid image of your hands.  I don't think we disagree on how those changes take place.  THat's one aspect I never got into much, mainly due to the lack of discussion that took place in this thread.  I thank you for speaking up, and also welcome anything else you might have to say on the subject.

----------


## The Cusp

Also Arutad, perhaps your focus was too narrow.  I was always assuming there were were several elements in play.  Perhaps you were so intent on your hands that in that particular dream that everyone of those elements had to do with your hand?

If you want to play with your hands, do it in the cold snow by a warm fire.  Then concentrate on your hands switching between the cold snow or hot fire as your secondary focus.  It brings in the new element of certain physical sensations which are often absent in dreams unless you are otherwise paying attention to you body.  

I also assumed there were themes already play, dream locations, characters, story lines, 

ground sky and everything in between.

Then throw emotions into the mix, and you a whole other range of possibilities.  You zoned out everything but your hands.  You have to let some other element in to work with, otherwise all you're left with is everything requires your attention to exist.   

If you were to try with your hands again with only a few elements in play, you'll start to notice the unique range of possibilities every area focus offers, visual or otherwise.  Certain themes that you can find or induce in a reliable manner.  But fewer elements means fewer possibilities available to you, so having multiple elements in play grants you multiple ways to fine tune your control.

The number of elements in play isn't as important as the ability to balance them out as needed. Or just travel through them, bringing in new elements and letting go the bothersome ones to see where it lead you.  

It's in that context I say everything requires your attention to exist, the more attention you give something the more related detail it creates. 




I thought I was done writing stuff in this thread, but you guys got me thinking about something I asked in my original post, "Do emotions require your attention to exist?"

I'm thinking emotions are ways to focus attention, independent of where your attention is placed.   We focus on different specific things in every emotional state.

Going with the ocean archetype again, you have a huge amount of things associated with that concept.  If you're focused on the ocean scene enough that it's creating an ocean dream, any number of thing related the ocean might appear.  That's a lot of possibilities.

But only a few of those possibilities are going to be associated with strong emotions.  This limited number of possibilities creates a predictable result.  Emotions are powerful means of change in dreams because they determine or rearrange how you focus on things. 


Now I want to end this rambling by saying dream control is exactly like refining a search engine query for something obscure.  There are a lot of possible results for both search engines and dreams, most of them spam.  But combining the right mix of words or elements you have in play, you can find the specific result you desire out of a seemingly limitless number of overall possibilities.  Some elements bring you closer to your goal, some don't help so you remove them from your querry.

----------


## Licity

Cusp, a related question I wanted to hear some input on:

Often, when an archetype comes into play, there is some action in the dream before the switch(i.e. things happen before my teeth fall out). What would you say the delay is due to? The brain is working slowly enough that there is noticable time before a change? The brain slows down changes to the dream on purpose to preserve the flow of the story? Something within the archetype relating to speed? Something else entirely?

----------


## Arutad

> If it wasn't true, then that would imply that the dream world is a stable world just like RL.  _That_ is clearly untrue.



When you dream you don't normally have consciousness and any directed attention to speak of. It's a play of your subconsciousness. Yet you can remember yourself in buildings and rooms that seems stable, you have characters speaking to you on their own.

You don't do it, your attention is not involved in the process.

But you say that everything in a dream requires attention to exist. Then why do we have dreams at all, why lack of attention doesn't prevent this spontaneous manifestation of the subconsciousness to happen each night?

Because our attention is not needed for our dreams to exist!





> Where did they come from?  They were spawned from personal archetypes or schemata.  They did not exist before you layed eyes on them or otherwise conceived of them in some dark corner of your mind.



But that's what I'm talking about. There is a place in your mind that creates them, and it doesn't require your attention, it doesn't require you to be aware of what it does. It makes dreams on its own, attention is not involved in supporting them.





> Saying what you expect to happen actually happens is the single biggest misconception about LDing there is.  Even the most experienced LDers experience countless failures while attempting things.  If they didn't expect those things to work, they never would have tried it in the first place.



I'm saying that because that's my experience, not because I'm thinking it theoretically.

An example would do. Usually if I LD in my apartment I want to go out, so I jump down through the window. Windows are usually closed. I had no problem jumping through them for a long time, never felt any obstacle on my way. But once I tried to run through and banged my forehead on it. I was surprised, tried again and banged my forehead again. Then I stepped back and remembered how I never had troubles before. I actually thought that no matter what happened, now that I remember that I never had troubles before and have certainty of success, I won't fail. And I jumped through the window with no problem.

My certainty of success was an expectation, and it changed everything.





> Next time instead of your hands, try looking at some squirming insects, even better if they are stinging insects, and see how fast they multiply.  The classic tooth dream is a great example if a rather extreme one.



I regularly look at various objects in my LDs, not only at my hand. The same. You look at something, it remains what it is. You look away, it changes.





> There, you've said it yourself, you didn't allow for any dramatic change to occur. You were limited to the first rule that everything requires your attention to exist, thereby maintaining a solid image of your hands.  I don't think we disagree on how those changes take place.



The problem is that it doesn't work the way you think it does. You don't need to look at something to let it change, you need to look away from it.

Of course looking at something will work too, but only because you expect a change, not because you look at something. It's the same old dream control, you expect associated details or things to spring up and it happens. It doesn't make it "a law" of the dream-world. And it's not the nature of dream control in general, it's the rule of your personal dream-control that you created for yourself.

----------


## Something Else

> Anyone have any thoughts on whether emotions are something that require your attention to exist, or whether they they are independent entities?



I know this question was posed at the beginning of this thread and so I have had sometime to think about it and the short answer is that I feel fairly confident that emotions do not need a person's conscious attention to exist. (Whether conscious attention = awareness is another debate altogether, but I am asserting that they are for the purpose of this thread as that is what has seemed to be the general trend so far.)

I learnt this while working with teenagers that had been severely abused and are now all diagnosed as emotionally disturbed.  I learnt quite a bit about processing emotions and emotional triggers from that job.

Also, I am not a neuroscientist so some of this may not be correct but I think that emotions reside in the lower part of the brain and awareness and thoughts exist in the higher part of the brain that developed later in human evolution.  These two parts of the brain can and do operate independently at times and can even conflict with each other.  So basically I think emotions belong to the lower brain and are more automated where as attention belongs to the higher brain and can be controlled more easily.  I do think that subtle emotions that have not come into our conscious awareness can and do exist and do affect us in ways we arent aware of.  The more powerful emotions force their way into our conscious awareness and in doing so affect us in ways that we are both aware and not aware of. 

In my time working with emotional disturbed young men this became quite apparent.  Often times a small trigger could set off a boy.  The trigger might be something as small as a similar type of boots that a person wore that were similar to one of the boys abusers (this is a real life example and did happen).  Such an environmental trigger would start to set the boy off in an emotional storm, sometimes instantly but sometimes slowly.  A trained professional can watch as the boy gets slowly more and more unstable as minutes and hours go by until going into an emotional episode.  In the early stages the boy might not even know there is anything wrong, might not even make a conscious connection between the boots of the new person and the boots of the abuser, but the subconscious does and starts to produce anxiety.  Later the anxiety grows, but like I said a trained professional that knows the boy well and knows signs to look for might even be able to realize that the boy is going to have an emotional episode even before the boy does because the boy is not consciously aware of his emotions yet still they are there lurking below the surface subtly affecting the boys behavior.  

Hope that makes sense.  My posts get kind of long but I like to be clear.  Thanks.

----------


## Something Else

> [/SIZE][SIZE=4]*3. Strong emotions have a devastating effect on everything around you.*
> 
> I've decided to include emotion as a separate rule.  I'll come up with a better way to sum it up eventually, but that's pretty much the gist of it for now.



I wonder if it is important to distinguish between strong negative and strong positive emotions.  I personally can think of ways in which strong positive emotions have helped me in real life and in the dream world (or so it seemed at the time).  But I would definitely agree that strong negative emotions could have a negative impact.  I am glad that you mentioned how your mood while you were in one room seemed to affect the mood of others in other rooms.  I do think that moods, energy levels, and emotions are transferable and contagious.  

As a teacher I know the value of matching and then raising the emotional mood of the classroom.  If I go in with too high energy when teaching a low energy class, I will go over their heads.  If (and this rarely happens) I go in with too low energy when teaching a high energy class then I will go under their heads.  The important thing is to get everyone on a similar energy level and then raise them together by just being slightly higher than they are.  I have to say though that I do believe that body positions and voice tone and rhythm do play a role in this, but I do think there are other contributing factors too, some of which might seem psychic.

----------


## Something Else

> [/SIZE][SIZE=4]*3. Strong emotions have a devastating effect on everything around you.*
> 
> I've decided to include emotion as a separate rule.  I'll come up with a better way to sum it up eventually, but that's pretty much the gist of it for now.



On a different note, I am paying much more attention to my emotions in dreams and trying more to actively engage and create positive emotions in an attempt to extent and stabilized my lucid dreams.  Often times my LDs only last a few seconds.  After having read this thread a few days ago I tried to WILD.  I am happy to report that infusing positive emotions in my dream seemed to make it last much longer.  I had the longest LD of this year.  It lasted around 2 minutes, which is much better than the normal trend for these days of 2-3 seconds.  It was followed by two shorter and less powerful DEILDs.

Then yesterday I tried to LD again while applying this technique.  I was greeted with my normal 3 second LD followed up by a very real false awakening. 

Today, almost nothing.  

I cant quite figure out why I have a problem extending, stabilizing, and intensifying lucid dreams.  I know that you have talked about introversion and maybe that is my problem.  I dont really ever seem to get lost in too much detail unless maybe when I am flying but that seems to be a fairly universal problem.

----------


## Something Else

> *A Newb's Experience with Lucid Dreaming*
> Using these rules for dream control requires a balance of attention.  This leaves only three outcomes for any newbie dreamer.  Achieve a balance, or tip the scale in one direction or the other.
> 
> *1. Balance:*  If a first time LDer begins to interact with his environment right away, then he inadvertently achieves balance as his awareness gets spread around the dream scene.  Things seem stable as long as they keep up a steady interaction with the dream.
> *
> 2. Introversion:*  The dreams realizes they are dreaming and are so amazed, excited and thrilled by this fact that they focus all their attention on that thought alone.  What that implies, the realization of what's happening, what's possible, all these thoughts direct a sudden rush of your awareness inwards to deal with all these mental machinations, which creates a corresponding vacuum in the dream around them.  With no attention to sustain it's self, the dream collapses and the dreamer wakes up.
> 
> *3. Overkill:*  Realizing they are dreaming, the dreamer checks things out and something fantastic, bizarre or just plain interesting catches their eye.  They go in for a closer look and the directed increase in attention causes that element to grow out of control, demanding even more attention.  They get in too deep and don't know how to stop it.  The resulting confusion also leads to waking up, which is a form of the second outcome.




 I must have a lot of introversion (I think).  I know my mind often goes off on a tangent and I lose the dream, but sometimes it seems to fade away on its own.  Not sure why.  I have definitely experienced hyper-detailed dreams where things seemed even more defined that real life.  In these dreams I could see so many vivid and bright colors.  Hear things that I normally couldnt like an insects heartbeat.  I could look down upon a single hair on my arm so that it looked so huge.. but I cannot remember every getting sucked into too much detail in these dreams that it made my dream stop.    

I have often been aware of a thought arising in the back of my mind while having a LD and if I entertain it then I can get engrossed in that thought and lose my lucid dream.  Would this also be a form of introversion?  This thought may or may not be related to the dream and has often led me into a non-lucid dream where said thought is the main concept of the dream.  It is almost like if I pay attention to it, instead of focusing on maintaining the lucid dream, then I lose the LD.  Does this make sense?  It is almost like the Buddhist concept of the monkey mind overpowers my LD.  

Here is a link on the monkey mind.   http://yoga.about.com/b/2007/01/18/q...onkey-mind.htm

----------


## anomanderis

> I must have a lot of introversion (I think).  I know my mind often goes off on a tangent and I lose the dream, but sometimes it seems to fade away on its own.  Not sure why.  I have definitely experienced hyper-detailed dreams where things seemed even more defined that real life.  In these dreams I could see so many vivid and bright colors.  Hear things that I normally couldn’t like an insect’s heartbeat.  I could look down upon a single hair on my arm so that it looked so huge….. but I cannot remember every getting sucked into too much detail in these dreams that it made my dream stop.    
> 
> I have often been aware of a thought arising in the back of my mind while having a LD and if I entertain it then I can get engrossed in that thought and lose my lucid dream.  Would this also be a form of introversion?  This thought may or may not be related to the dream and has often led me into a non-lucid dream where said thought is the main concept of the dream.  It is almost like if I pay attention to it, instead of focusing on maintaining the lucid dream, then I lose the LD.  Does this make sense?  It is almost like the Buddhist concept of the monkey mind overpowers my LD.  
> 
> Here is a link on the monkey mind.   http://yoga.about.com/b/2007/01/18/q...onkey-mind.htm



Your experiences of lucid dreaming seem to be somewhat akin to mine as much as i think the reason for why my lucids only lasted for a dozen seconds or so is the same. 
You've got the right answer, but just knowing it is only 1/10 of the answer. It took me a while to understand it and actually condition my mind to not extricate "me" from the dream scape; akin to learning not to pay attention to the mouth and salivating to avoid salivation when WILDing for example. It just kinda happened that i stopped paying attention to it after a while... same with lucid dreaming  :smiley:  Intent is a powerful ally.
And learn to not force your will. 
Softly, ever so softly . . .

----------


## Something Else

> Your experiences of lucid dreaming seem to be somewhat akin to mine as much as i think the reason for why my lucids only lasted for a dozen seconds or so is the same. 
> You've got the right answer, but just knowing it is only 1/10 of the answer. It took me a while to understand it and actually condition my mind to not extricate "me" from the dream scape; akin to learning not to pay attention to the mouth and salivating to avoid salivation when WILDing for example. It just kinda happened that i stopped paying attention to it after a while... same with lucid dreaming  Intent is a powerful ally.
> And learn to not force your will. 
> Softly, ever so softly . . .



I also really resonated with all of your posts.  Actually, I plan on pm you soon.  But anyway I am still keeping at it and will consider you advice.  

I had another LD last night, but this time only had tactile sensations. I kept on rubbing my hands together and trying to look at them but no visuals; I mean nothing.  Then I was started rubbing them on my arms and legs.  I rubbed them so hard they hurt.  This was actually a first for me.  I haven't ever caused myself pain before in a dream.  Next I decided to try to rub my feet thinking that there were a lot of nerves in my feet.  I touched them and I gained sight.  I rubbed them more and then my vision froze in its frame and then whited out and then blacked out.  This was also a little strange because rarely does a dream ever white out.  The whole thing maybe lasted 20-30 seconds.  

Anyway, thanks for the advice and look forward to talking to you soon.

----------


## moonshine

> The time has come to reveal where I learned of these dreaming rules, and at the same time to throw any credibility this thread might have had right out the window.
> *
> Secret Origins:  Enter the Night Stalkers.*
> 
> It all started with the infamous Night Stalker/Dream Walker thread.http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=37621
> 
> That thread was about people who supposedly enter other people's dreams and torment them.  I like to keep an open mind, and was willing to at least consider the possibility.  If there were people capable of such things, then I reasoned that DV would be a good place for them to find targets.  Many people, including myself, keep detailed dream journals on this site.  I figured the DJs would allow any of these Night Stalkers to read about their visits afterwards.
> 
> Being a LDer with many years of experience, I arrogantly assumed I would be able to handle any such visitors with ease.  So I put out an open challenge to any of these "Night Stalkers" that might be lurking the forums in the hopes being targeted.  I was really cocky about it, repeatedly calling them out, calling them names.
> ...







Wouldn't be these dreamwalkers nightstalkers would they cusp. 

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=9894





> I spent several hours with a fellow LD'er digging up what we could find... If you have a look for yourself you will find in Lex's first post "they were talking about this over at club beach" 
> 
> I found the club beach forum which is a jap anime site. I found the thread she was talking about and no one else mentioned nightstalkers, she brang it up, then another person confirmed it - Aeronolio, who is also known as Sanzora on DV (they have identical avatars). They both signed up on DV almost at the same time, they both live in South Africa, both like jap anime, and both like RPG games. If you have a look at World of Warcraft, you will see the terms "Dreamwalker" and "Nightstalker" plastered all over it. 
> 
> The thing is.. their story implies that these 'nightstalkers' and 'dreamwalkers' and 'rogues' are all ordinary people who are part of a 'faction' (commonly used term in WoW), that know how to go into others dreams and taunt them. Not only has shared dreaming never been confirmed with a reputable account, it would serve absolutely no purpose to go into other peoples dreams. They are immature girls deluded with their own fantasy.



You would know this of course, having been the one who started the thread over on astral dynamics. 
The one thing I can't figure out is why you would forget to mention the same in your Official History of The Night Stalkers post. 

Hmmmmm.

----------


## spaceexplorer

Good god, is this really supposed to be a serious lucid dreaming forum?

With stuff like this "nightstalker" nonsense... people are going to be taking lucid dreamers as seriously as if we've just walked out of a mental home dressed a gandalf the wizard.

----------


## jimmie

Dreams are a creation of our subconscious and conscious minds, correct?  And these are formed by our own beliefs and experiences, right?  Then it seems Night Stalkers can be as much a part of that experience as anything.  I know several people who have dreamed the same dream at the same time (from their separate points of view).  Which would be an important part of dream control, if it can be controlled. So it seems to fit quite well in this thread.
    Night Stalkers may just be one person's experience with certain types of dream phenomena, but if learning about Dream Control came from the experience (which it does appear to), then Night Stalkers fit well within this thread.
     Did the Night Stalker portion contain some information that some people may not agree with?  Like the idea of shared dreams?  Yes.  Does that make it any less valid?  Well, I don't like lawn Gnomes, but that doesn't mean other people should throw them away because I would.  And I don't like hard core mathematics.  It's too theoretical, and not practical enough.  But by golly, though I don't see directly how we would benefit from it, some people manage to make it work, and change science (see:  Einstein).  It isn't that mathematics is proven correct.  In fact, Physics will tell you that mathematics is an exact model trying to model an inexact world.
     It is good to know where information came from so you can create a more full context for it, and place it in your own mental box.  However, Moonshine, when you try to place it in everyone else's mental box, you are attempting to short circuit their method of learning for your own.
     As for Shamanism and Magic, etc., these are belief systems.  Belief systems color our dreams thoroughly, and alter how we can control them, and which methods work best for us.  This is a thread on Dream Control, so it is still quite a valid topic.
     It is nearly impossible to construct the idea of how beliefs affect our dreams without giving examples of beliefs affecting dreams, and also nearly impossible to give good examples or even pass along knowledge clearly unless it comes from your own belief system and experiences.  Have you ever played telephone?  That game is an example of why just passing on knowledge without experience can degrade quickly into nonsense.
     So while you are attempting a forum control here, Moonshine, you are really just projecting YOUR OWN beliefs onto this thread, which is exactly what you are arguing is the problem with this thread.  It might be better if you took a less hypocritical standpoint when you post to threads.
     -Jim

----------


## The Cusp

I moved this week, don't have easy internet access hooked up yet, so haven't been around much.





> Cusp, a related question I wanted to hear some input on:
> 
> Often, when an archetype comes into play, there is some action in the dream before the switch(i.e. things happen before my teeth fall out). What would you say the delay is due to? The brain is working slowly enough that there is noticable time before a change? The brain slows down changes to the dream on purpose to preserve the flow of the story? Something within the archetype relating to speed? Something else entirely?



That's something I'm going to need to look into more, the art of change.  Thus far I've just taken for granted that change does occur.  I haven't studied where and under what circumstances change takes place yet.

But I think the timing issue is just a matter of waiting for an opportunity for change to occur.

Keeping a dream stable is a balancing act of focusing your attention on certain elements and avoiding or dealing other less desirable elements.  So generally speaking, change will occur when you attention becomes unbalanced.  Either too much on one element, causing it be grow and become more real, or not enough on other elements, causing them to become unstable.

As Arutad mentioned, things do tend to come out of nowhere.  Off the top of my head, the three big change inducers are

-Looking away from something, then looking back
-Looking  really close at something allowing change to occur outside your field of vision. 
-Just looking somewhere new.





> When you dream you don't normally have consciousness and any directed attention to speak of. It's a play of your subconsciousness. Yet you can remember yourself in buildings and rooms that seems stable, you have characters speaking to you on their own.
> 
> You don't do it, your attention is not involved in the process.



I think we always have consciousness.  We are conscious during the day, and any non lucid dream seems like reality at the time, so I don't really see a difference.  We react to our environment, make decisions, ect.  The subconscious just determines the landscape we inhabit.  The consciousness is always there dealing with it.   





> But that's what I'm talking about. There is a place in your mind that creates them, and it doesn't require your attention, it doesn't require you to be aware of what it does. It makes dreams on its own, attention is not involved in supporting them.
> 
> I'm saying that because that's my experience, not because I'm thinking it theoretically.



The conscious and subconscious are always in play.  The consciousness directs what for the subconscious will take.





> An example would do. Usually if I LD in my apartment I want to go out, so I jump down through the window. Windows are usually closed. I had no problem jumping through them for a long time, never felt any obstacle on my way. But once I tried to run through and banged my forehead on it. I was surprised, tried again and banged my forehead again. Then I stepped back and remembered how I never had troubles before. I actually thought that no matter what happened, now that I remember that I never had troubles before and have certainty of success, I won't fail. And I jumped through the window with no problem.
> 
> My certainty of success was an expectation, and it changed everything.



That wasn't expectation.  You defaulted on the archetype of matter being solid because that's the most active and well defined one you have.  You get more data confirming that in RL than any other model.

Then you overrode or invoked a new archetype, the formed from your previous experiences passing through the window.

The most likely reason you were able to pass through that window in the first place is because you were more focused on flying than on the obstacle solid matter might present.  That forged a new archetype that you are now able to draw on by focusing your attention onto it, and becomes more reliable the more you use it.  

Another reason I think expectation isn't accurate is because of the word "NOT".  You walk around in a lucid repeating out loud "There are NOT going to be zombies, there are NOT going to be zombies...", while looking around to make sure there aren't any zombies.

It would be a pretty safe bet to say the average person in going to encounter a zombie in that situation.  Trying to preemptively negate zombies in that case still invokes the zombie archetype, causing the very opposite of your expectations.





> I regularly look at various objects in my LDs, not only at my hand. The same. You look at something, it remains what it is. You look away, it changes.
> 
> The problem is that it doesn't work the way you think it does. You don't need to look at something to let it change, you need to look away from it.
> 
> Of course looking at something will work too, but only because you expect a change, not because you look at something. It's the same old dream control, you expect associated details or things to spring up and it happens. It doesn't make it "a law" of the dream-world. And it's not the nature of dream control in general, it's the rule of your personal dream-control that you created for yourself.



I think you misunderstand.  Directing your attention is not limited to the visual range of sensory input.  It can be a feeling, a concept/theme/idea, a sound, a smell, a memory.  What you look at can be a very minor part in all that.  It's things that catch your attention and stick in the back of your mind that count.

I never really got how change occurs.  Seemed almost redundant since dreams are so full of change.  I completely agree change occurs when you look away.  When I said change occurs by focusing on something, I meant focusing on something new.  

I still maintain this thread is not about my personal control system.  It's a general purpose system that transcends all belief systems.   It allows you to take advantage of your own personal system, and whatever that may be is of no relevance other than incidental to this discussion.  A dream is a dream.  Whatever your beliefs they work in somewhat predictable ways you can take advantage of.  I'm doing my best here to sum up those generalizations in terms that will apply to everyone.

----------


## The Cusp

> In my time working with emotional disturbed young men this became quite apparent.  Often times a small trigger could set off a boy.  The trigger might be something as small as a similar type of boots that a person wore that were similar to one of the boys abusers (this is a real life example and did happen).  Such an environmental trigger would start to set the boy off in an emotional storm, sometimes instantly but sometimes slowly.  A trained professional can watch as the boy gets slowly more and more unstable as minutes and hours go by until going into an emotional episode.  In the early stages the boy might not even know there is anything wrong, might not even make a conscious connection between the boots of the new person and the boots of the abuser, but the subconscious does and starts to produce anxiety.  Later the anxiety grows, but like I said a trained professional that knows the boy well and knows signs to look for might even be able to realize that the boy is going to have an emotional episode even before the boy does because the boy is not consciously aware of his emotions yet still they are there lurking below the surface subtly affecting the boys behavior.  
> 
> Hope that makes sense.  My posts get kind of long but I like to be clear.  Thanks.



That's a perfect example.  The kid focuses on something with a strong emotional attachment, the powerful emotions magnify it's effect and start dredging up related memories which snowball out of control as he focuses on each new one.  

It's _exactly_ what happens in the classic tooth dream scenario.





> I wonder if it is important to distinguish between strong negative and strong positive emotions. I personally can think of ways in which strong positive emotions have helped me in real life and in the dream world (or so it seemed at the time). But I would definitely agree that strong negative emotions could have a negative impact. I am glad that you mentioned how your mood while you were in one room seemed to affect the mood of others in other rooms. I do think that moods, energy levels, and emotions are transferable and contagious.



I don't see the need to distinguish between positive and negative emotions, it's the intensity of the emotion that counts.   They each have their uses.  As a teacher, you have to be both friend and disciplinarian.





> As a teacher I know the value of matching and then raising the emotional mood of the classroom. If I go in with too high energy when teaching a low energy class, I will go over their heads. If (and this rarely happens) I go in with too low energy when teaching a high energy class then I will go under their heads. The important thing is to get everyone on a similar energy level and then raise them together by just being slightly higher than they are. I have to say though that I do believe that body positions and voice tone and rhythm do play a role in this, but I do think there are other contributing factors too, some of which might seem psychic.



Seem psychic, but I think it's just other ways or levels in which you capture and manipulate your student's attentions. Body position, voice tone and rhythm are good examples, but like in a dream, there are countless other ways you can do it.

One of the most effective methods I've seen a teacher us to gain control of an unruly class was to slam meter stick down on someone's desk as hard as he could.  Talk about getting your attention!

Come to think of it, many of my teachers had unique ways grabbing and manipulating the student's attention.  One could silence anyone with just a look.  Another knew how to direct the other student's attention against you as a weapon in order to cow you into submission.  A less subtle one was one teacher would fry up the cow brains we discected for the class to eat.  All examples of directed attention which I think relate to dream control





> I cant quite figure out why I have a problem extending, stabilizing, and intensifying lucid dreams. I know that you have talked about introversion and maybe that is my problem. I dont really ever seem to get lost in too much detail unless maybe when I am flying but that seems to be a fairly universal problem.



A stable dream requires a balanced focus of your attention.  Becoming lucid upsets that balance, and sometimes you need to make a few corrections.  The easiest thing to do might be to reset to your basic defaults though motion, which implies both your dream body and an environment to move around in and react to.  Reestablish the basic framework, where you are, where you're going, what you're doing, what's happening around you.

You may even need to do that several times.  I usually keep moving and doing crazy stuff like in the movie Crank.  It keeps things stable, but holds me back somewhat because I become a little too involved with the environment which makes me more prone to distraction. 

It's give and take really.  Exerting control necessitates upsetting stability.  





> Dreams are a creation of our subconscious and conscious minds, correct? And these are formed by our own beliefs and experiences, right? Then it seems Night Stalkers can be as much a part of that experience as anything. I know several people who have dreamed the same dream at the same time (from their separate points of view). Which would be an important part of dream control, if it can be controlled. So it seems to fit quite well in this thread.
>  Night Stalkers may just be one person's experience with certain types of dream phenomena, but if learning about Dream Control came from the experience (which it does appear to), then Night Stalkers fit well within this thread.
> Did the Night Stalker portion contain some information that some people may not agree with? Like the idea of shared dreams? Yes. Does that make it any less valid? Well, I don't like lawn Gnomes, but that doesn't mean other people should throw them away because I would. And I don't like hard core mathematics. It's too theoretical, and not practical enough. But by golly, though I don't see directly how we would benefit from it, some people manage to make it work, and change science (see: Einstein). It isn't that mathematics is proven correct. In fact, Physics will tell you that mathematics is an exact model trying to model an inexact world.
> It is good to know where information came from so you can create a more full context for it, and place it in your own mental box. However, Moonshine, when you try to place it in everyone else's mental box, you are attempting to short circuit their method of learning for your own.
> As for Shamanism and Magic, etc., these are belief systems. Belief systems color our dreams thoroughly, and alter how we can control them, and which methods work best for us. This is a thread on Dream Control, so it is still quite a valid topic.
> It is nearly impossible to construct the idea of how beliefs affect our dreams without giving examples of beliefs affecting dreams, and also nearly impossible to give good examples or even pass along knowledge clearly unless it comes from your own belief system and experiences. Have you ever played telephone? That game is an example of why just passing on knowledge without experience can degrade quickly into nonsense.
> So while you are attempting a forum control here, Moonshine, you are really just projecting YOUR OWN beliefs onto this thread, which is exactly what you are arguing is the problem with this thread. It might be better if you took a less hypocritical standpoint when you post to threads.
>      -Jim



Thank you Jim.  That was very well said.

----------


## Naiya

I think this is true nearly all the time...very true.

There are some instances where the first rule doesn't fit, though. For example, once I fell asleep on the plane and the music from my headphones bled into my lucid dream. In that dream, my attention or lack thereof could not have stopped the music from playing in my ears. So there are times where external stimuli can possibly affect us. 

If you needed to direct attention for something to exist in a dream, then how could dreams begin? You can't direct your attention when nothing is there. And so that means something has to be there _before_ you direct your attention so that you_ can_ direct your attention to it. 

So basically I feel that the OP is a very true statement, but it is not absolute. I think there may be a piece or two that still needs to be added here. Thanks Cusp.  :wink2:

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## Shift

a



> HypnO*A*gogic Imagery

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## moonshine

> Well, I don't like lawn Gnomes, but that doesn't mean other people should throw them away because I would.



Bad analogy. Theres a difference between not liking Gnomes and trying to claim they are alive and watching us from the  bottom of the garden, only moving at night when they report back to their dreamwalker overlords.

For example.  ::D:

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## aang554

All of this sounds great!!! I'll to try it next time.

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## Mertruve

> I honestly think you do yourself a disservice by shoehorning in occult aspects into what might otherwise be very useful advice.



It was a *great* tutorial through the first five pages or so.

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## The Cusp

Ok, seriously, I was saying the same damn thing though out the entire thread.  I mean there there are only four rules and I went on about it for 14 pages!  lol

Yes I repeated myself, but I did so in different ways, using different tacts, trying different directions and archetypes.  What I was trying to express was not an easy thing to get across, and I used a variety of metaphors that I hoped appealed to different people.

Some people really liked and could relate the BD stuff, other's hated it.  But that was the point, and an integral part of what this thread has been about.  If parts of this thread appeal to someone while others don't, that's what I was trying to do.  You're not missing out if you don't like or can't understand certain sections, they all say pretty much the same thing (but it evolved a bit over time).  I used varied approaches to try to get through to a wider audience, but I hope the underlying ideas I was trying to get across remained constant through all of it.   

I just provided several lenses that focused on the same thing.  If a certain perscriptions hurt your eyes then just use the ones that work for you.

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## G0MPgomp

> Just think about it as you're falling asleep.  Try to remember as much detail as possible, like you're about to write it down in you DJ.
> 
> Happens to me quite often when I'm too lazy to get out of bed to take notes on the dream.  I try to memorize the details as I drift off and usually end up continuing the dream.
> 
> HypnOgogic Imagery could interfere with that process by introducing other random themes, so it's not 100% guaranteed to work.  But then again you don't always go through the HI stage, so if you keep at it you should be able to re-enter the dream eventually.



Do not try! Do! 

Spit in one hand.. Try to spit in the other? 

Then you can see and feel what trying is good for...  ::roll::

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## atlantic

Dreamslinger, I definitely agree with your assessment that dreams develop according to the focus of your attention, and that detail is added as you focus on a particular element, detail that was not there before. Sometimes you see things change before your eyes, as you put your full focus on them.

One thing I don't understand is dream transitions or discontinuities. When you focus on certain things, instead of developing inside the same dream, they require a change of scenario. You go through a black patch and you transition to a new dream. Now why is that?

I've been playing around with a theory, so let me put it to you. In waking reality, we have our perceptions, which are external, and our thoughts, which are internal. They don't really mix. In dream reality, we don't have perceptions, and we do have our thoughts, which are completely externalized as pseudo-perceptions. So actually looking at your dreams means looking at your mental contents, but externalized, or clothed with a sensory appearance taken from our store of memories. Does this sound plausible?

BTW, this does not necessarily mean that our dreams are subjective - they are just as subjective or objective as our thoughts are, that's all.

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## The Cusp

> One thing I don't understand is dream transitions or discontinuities. When you focus on certain things, instead of developing inside the same dream, they require a change of scenario. You go through a black patch and you transition to a new dream. Now why is that?



Possibly because your thought process becomes internalized, and you don't have enough attention externally to sustain your surroundings.  It seems like a sudden transition because you have one single archetype populating a blank slate, so it only seems more dramatic than usual.





> I've been playing around with a theory, so let me put it to you. In waking reality, we have our perceptions, which are external, and our thoughts, which are internal. They don't really mix.



Actually they do mix.  Your inner thoughts determine where you focus your outer perceptions, the exact same way as in dreams.  In fact they limit them, because like in dreams, you can't be aware of anything that you don't have an existing archetype for.





> In dream reality, we don't have perceptions, and we do have our thoughts, which are completely externalized as pseudo-perceptions. So actually looking at your dreams means looking at your mental contents, but externalized, or clothed with a sensory appearance taken from our store of memories. Does this sound plausible?
> 
> BTW, this does not necessarily mean that our dreams are subjective - they are just as subjective or objective as our thoughts are, that's all.



Very well put.

----------


## Something Else

> In dream reality, we don't have perceptions, and we do have our thoughts, which are completely externalized as pseudo-perceptions. So actually looking at your dreams means looking at your mental contents, but externalized, or clothed with a sensory appearance taken from our store of memories. Does this sound plausible?
> 
> BTW, this does not necessarily mean that our dreams are subjective - they are just as subjective or objective as our thoughts are, that's all.



I have thought about this before too.  Sounds like a good theory to me too.

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## atlantic

> I'm also beginning to suspect that this rule applies to the waking world as well, and that the dream control skills mastered through understanding of this concept can be used to influence the waking world. I expect this to be demonstratable, not as a physical proof, but as something that can be experienced.



I think there is a difference between the relationship of the mind to the waking world and dream worlds, but not in the sense that one is real and the other not. It's more a question of inertia. 

In both cases, your belief system is the main limitation on what you can achieve. But whereas in the dream world, you can make immediate and visible changes, the material world is much more resistant to change, and your thought will change it over weeks or months rather than seconds. 

Still, I am convinced that our thought is the main factor determining the kind of world each of us lives in. And of those who manage to grasp and employ this relationship, we say they are "living their dream" - given time, they can literally turn their thoughts into reality.

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## atlantic

What you are saying about archetypes ties in with something I read in Huxley's _The Gates of Perception_. He argued that, rather than being an organ of thought, the brain was a "reducing valve" (I think he was using a plumbing metaphor!), whose role was to reduce the flood of information provided by the five senses to manageable proportions, by a process of filtering related to our previously acquired conceptions of the world.

I have the impression that the world in its raw state is extremely chaotic, and all living beings have to select and filter this flood of information to make sense of it. Perhaps what distinguishes humans from animals (if anything) is that we can reconfigure this process to a certain extent, although the flip side of that is that we are also subject to all kinds of mental diseases when the process goes wrong.

As you say, all of this becomes much more obvious in the context of the very plastic environment of LD.

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## The Cusp

> In both cases, your belief system is the main limitation on what you can achieve. But whereas in the dream world, you can make immediate and visible changes, the material world is much more resistant to change, and your thought will change it over weeks or months rather than seconds.



RL only seems more resistant to change for the same reason those sudden transitions seem so dramatic, because they are the sole source of influence on a blank slate.  In Rl, there are billions of other people exerting an influence as well, so it only looks like your individual contribution is meaningless.

But there's still gotta be a way to have direct influence over reality.  When you focus on an archetype and it manifests it's associations, those new manifestations don't become the new source of change until you shift your focus onto them.  So I'm thinking that by utilizing the manifested properties of the general archetypes the population is focused on and not the archetypes themselves, then those areas below the focus radar should allow you to exert change over the real world.

All I know for sure is I've got to start being more careful about the types of women I fantasize about, because they keep appearing out of seemingly nowhere!





> What you are saying about archetypes ties in with something I read in Huxley's The Gates of Perception. He argued that, rather than being an organ of thought, the brain was a "reducing valve" (I think he was using a plumbing metaphor!), whose role was to reduce the flood of information provided by the five senses to manageable proportions, by a process of filtering related to our previously acquired conceptions of the world.



I suppose that is what I'm saying.

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## Dannon Oneironaut

These principles operate in physics also it seems. It seems that as scientists focus in on subatomic particles it just gets deeper and deeper and more detail unfolds to them. It is like they are chasing the mystery but their attention keeps creating it at a deeper level. At first it was atoms, then it was electrons, neutrons and protons, then it was quarks and positrons, etc. Then it was waveforms where particles are in no particular place but just where the observer _expects_ them to be. And this opens the door to alternate realities. But, In a dream I had microscopic vision and I zoomed into a cobblestone and it unfolded fractally.

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## rafito12

wow great thread, i spent the best part of the weekend reading everyone's insight and let me tell you it was very eye opening.

I know its been almost three years since the last reply was made to the thread but for the sake of it let me include some of my thoughts. Cusp I would love it if you are still suscribed to the post. Three years of experimenting with these ideas im sure would have given you some more very interesting insights.

Your rules for lucid dreaming are absolutely spot on. I am still a rather amateur lucid dreamer so Im still developing techniques for dream control but what I wanted to talk to you about is this application and overlapping of real life and lucid dreams and how both 'realities' seem to obvey the same rules.

I would like to know if anyone is familiar with the book "Conversations with God" by Donald Walsh. The book puts forward some very interesting points about morality, sin and destiny but what is more relevant to this thread is the way it explains the means by which a person can manipulate and transform reality using exactly the same techniques and following the same rules youve explained about lucid dreaming. The parallels between what you have written here and the book are really quite amazing.

 without going onto the religious aspects that the book deals with, basically this book argues that this reality we call real life is really a DREAM, a kind of program. It argues that everything in the universe (you me, a dog, a love song, the universe, other dimensions) is part of one whole...and as part of that whole you and me are in essence God...just as is a rat or a cow or a tree...ok so the non religious side of this (dont wanna get into the religious bit here unless someone would like to hear more) is the fact that as part of that whole we have the ability to change it and manipulate it. So in the same way that we can for example move a an arm or any other limb of our body, we can also change something in this reality...since reality and everything in it is just another limb of our "universal" body (for lack of a better word) 

Ok so please im not trying to preach a belief system here, im just trying to get to my point, and my point is. Waking life just as lucid dreams can be controled and shapped to our will but just as in lucid dreams it is a bit more complicated than just making it happen since it is subjected to the same rules present in lucid dreams...namely

1.Awareness of being in a dream like state
1. Everything in the dream requires your attention to exist.
2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.
3. Emotions play a very important role in dream control

hehe sounds like im paraphrasing what Cusp has said before, but these are all rules that this book puts forward albeit not as concisely.

So how can reality be manipulated like a lucid dream? firstly, an awareness that this waking life is just merely a dream has to be in our minds...this awareness also has to come with a realisation that this dream is a creation of our universal body's mind (again crap word but you get the meaning) and as such we have absolute control over it.

and the rest has already been explained perfectly by Cusp and others here, its just a matter of focusing, paying attention, avoiding distraction...getting rid of the concept of want (for want implies the lack of and shifts our focus from having to not having) and always challenging this waking life as being the ultimate reality...just as you challenge a dream as being the ultimate reality...thats when you gain control..

one last thing





> Thanks for all the positive feedback, I really appreciate it.  It takes me so long to write out these posts (This measly post took almost 4 hours!).  *
> 
> Real World Applications
> *
> For the past month or so, I've been observing how these principles apply to the real world as much as they do to dreaming.  But it comes with an extra layer of complexity in the waking world, namely other people.    The potential each one of us has using these techniques is phenomenal, and when you consider there are billions of people influencing the world in this manner, the possibilities for conflict or resonance are mind boggling.  It would seem that the waking world is just one big shared dream!
> [/SIZE][/SIZE]



I think youre absolutely on the ball there..one big shared dream where conflict and resonance play a very important role in the shapping of the world and the universe. prsonal reality, a bit easier to deal with

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## rafito12

> Woul you be willing to say, the Cusp, that both the physical world and dream world abide by the same basic rules? 
> Only that in the dream world we are godlike.
> It has seemed, for me, to be this way after I realized I was using the same technique, the same focus for manipulating the dream world and the physical world (psychokinesis).



I think we are god like...because we are everything, the difference with lucid dreams is that in waking life attaining the realisation that we are living in a dream is a bit harder than just noticing that flicking a light switch doesnt turn the light on

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## atlantic

> I think we are god like...because we are everything, the difference with lucid dreams is that in waking life attaining the realisation that we are living in a dream is a bit harder than just noticing that flicking a light switch doesnt turn the light on



I don't think we _are_ everything. I think we are _connected_ to everything, or we resonate with everything. It may sound like splitting hairs but it's an important distinction. We can't just _order_ things to change; but since there is a connection, we _can_ get any aspect of reality to change with the appropriate effort.

In any case, I think the starting point for having some power over reality is to understand that it has a dream-like nature, which means it is fluid and interacts with our will to some extent. And the best way to change our fundamental beliefs about the solidity of the real world is to have the repeated experience of lucid dreaming. This really changes the way you look at how reality works, because your brain does not know that you are dreaming, and begins to store up a new model of reality.

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## The Cusp

> These principles operate in physics also it seems. It seems that as scientists focus in on subatomic particles it just gets deeper and deeper and more detail unfolds to them. It is like they are chasing the mystery but their attention keeps creating it at a deeper level. At first it was atoms, then it was electrons, neutrons and protons, then it was quarks and positrons, etc. Then it was waveforms where particles are in no particular place but just where the observer _expects_ them to be. And this opens the door to alternate realities. But, In a dream I had microscopic vision and I zoomed into a cobblestone and it unfolded fractally.



Relativity and the Uncertainty principle apply to dreams the same way they do to reality.  You cannot fly faster than the speed of light in a dream (wormholes and teleportation doesn't count!)

I don't think there is an irreductable God particle in the physicial universe.  According to the dream model, there will always be more detail the deeper you look.  That goes both for the microcosm and the macro cosm.  The phrase "as above, so below" seems to apply here, but I don't want to get into that right now. 





> I know its been almost three years since the last reply was made to the thread but for the sake of it let me include some of my thoughts. Cusp I would love it if you are still suscribed to the post. Three years of experimenting with these ideas im sure would have given you some more very interesting insights.



No worries, this thread never really dies.  And it will only have been two years this spring.





> I would like to know if anyone is familiar with the book "Conversations with God" by Donald Walsh.



I've heard of it, but had no idea that's what it was about.  The title kind of put my off, but the concept of God isn't so far off as a metaphor.  It's just the closest pre-existing archetype that embodies many of the relevant aspects.  The idea of God isn't a useless concept, it makes a great template archetype for dealing with the unknown, but you just have to be willing to modify that archetype to fit the circumstances.  Many people are resistant to change in their ideas of god, or their archetypes are so massive and well established that it's almost impossible to change them.





> 1.Awareness of being in a dream like state
> 1. Everything in the dream requires your attention to exist.
> 2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.
> 3. Emotions play a very important role in dream control
> 
> hehe sounds like im paraphrasing what Cusp has said before, but these are all rules that this book puts forward albeit not as concisely.



Realy?  He says that?  It's good to have independant confirmation!  I'm going to have to read that, especially since I want to write a book on the subject and I need to check out my competition.  I didn't think I had any!





> So how can reality be manipulated like a lucid dream? firstly, an awareness that this waking life is just merely a dream has to be in our minds...this awareness also has to come with a realisation that this dream is a creation of our universal body's mind (again crap word but you get the meaning) and as such we have absolute control over it.



For starters you need a lucid awareness in your daily life.  Basically what I tried to say here http://dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=83428
You have free will, but you need to be lucid to use it.

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## rafito12

Yeah I know what you mean about the God archetype, i had some real trouble starting the book because of this but once you get into it youll see that this "god" is more of a consciousness...sort of the collection of everyones consciousness kind of thing..in other words much more to do with our minds than the God that sent locusts to Egypt

[QUOTE=The Cusp;1192996]

Realy?  He says that?  It's good to have independant confirmation!  I'm going to have to read that, especially since I want to write a book on the subject and I need to check out my competition.  I didn't think I had any!

QUOTE]


Yep, like I said nowhere near as concisely as you put it, but in the section of controlling reality thats all it makes a point of...mostly becoming aware of our dream like state by realising what we are, who we are and why this reality is the way it is (that would be this book's particular belief system) but you can become aware of the dream like state according to whatever you believe this reality is, whatever your belief system is about god or energy or the universe, i dunno what you believe (but just in this instance the book does have at its core belief that reality is the sum of collective dreaming and that this collective is God)
Then once the awareness is on our minds the next step is the focusing (the paying attention to), and the example the book uses the most is the human habit of focusing on want, I want this i want that. focusing on want doesnt actually bring anything...it works like a charm though in that it brings what is being focused on...so if u say i want a new car then u focus on I dont have a red car and thats why I want it and therefore the object of your focus becomes your reality...you dont have a red car, and u never get a red car...but you always get what you focus on...so focus instead on having, knowing that its already there, imagining with your senses what its like, what it looks like and knowing it will come (same techniques you use for lucid dream control) but always always having in the back of your mind that  realisation that ur in a dream like reality...(again the same way you have to keep reminding yourself that youre in a dream while LD) This im sure applies to much more than the habit of wanting, it applies to everything, i believe.

You might find the begining of the book a bit dense with more theological questions being answered but it does get into reality and how we play a part in shapping it and I tell you its 100% Lucid Dreaming techniques put to practice in RL, but you do need some kind of thelogical background to support the argument that RL is only just another dream.

 I would be interested to know what your personal argument is for your assertion that RL is just a dream like state...what makes you think this is so?(appart from the experiental info such as when you said the dog gfot angry when you focused on the "beware of the dog" sign) and also if this is a dream like state, what is if any the ultimate reality? i know those are some pretty big questions...feel free to say "just buy my book!!" hehe

Good luck with your writings, i look forward to hearing more from you!

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## atlantic

> I'd say we are just as godlike in the real world as in dreams.  The only difference is that in dreams, there is nobody else to interfere with your will.  In RL, there are billions of other godlike people as well.  So if you wanted to fly, there are billions of other people who say "No, you can't do that.", thus making it impossible for you to do so.  You're just outnumbered.



When I am with other people, I feel them deforming my personal world view and perception - they really tug it out of shape. This is very clear when I take a walk with one other person. Their effect on the conversation is most noticeable, but in fact the exact same effect takes place at the level of perception, even if no words are spoken.

But I think exactly the same thing takes place in dreams. You can have totally subjective dreams, but most dreams are shared, not only with other human beings but with a host of other creatures.

So I think you've got it wrong in this respect. Sometimes in the real world we have the place to ourselves - nobody else is around - and we are still not capable of changing it at will. And sometimes in dreams, we are with others, and we are still capable of making changes at will. So I don't think that being alone or with others is the limiting factor - something else is.

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## The Cusp

> When I am with other people, I feel them deforming my personal world view and perception - they really tug it out of shape. This is very clear when I take a walk with one other person. Their effect on the conversation is most noticeable, but in fact the exact same effect takes place at the level of perception, even if no words are spoken.
> 
> But I think exactly the same thing takes place in dreams. You can have totally subjective dreams, but most dreams are shared, not only with other human beings but with a host of other creatures.



Your timing is uncanny.  I've only just started noticing that happening in my dreams last week.  Had two separate dreams where that was happening.  I would encounter suspect fellow dreamers and my attention would jump like a scratched record, or like you're trying to click on something with your computer mouse and the cursor suddenly jumps halfway across the screen. 

But I don't want to discuss that too much here, I'll make a thread about it in BD.

As for in RL, I can feel that happening as well.  It's one of the main factors in determining the company I keep.





> So I think you've got it wrong in this respect. Sometimes in the real world we have the place to ourselves - nobody else is around - and we are still not capable of changing it at will. And sometimes in dreams, we are with others, and we are still capable of making changes at will. So I don't think that being alone or with others is the limiting factor - something else is.



I don't think physical distance is the limiting factor.   Perhaps a radio frequency type scenario, where you only share your reality with people tuned to the same frequency.

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## anomanderis

Maybe i've experienced something similar to this starting in the last week. I'd say  the phenomena actually began when I started noticing in RL how people affect my perception (being alone vs being with someone). 
Now I'm having these . . . fractal dreams, and i say fractal in the sense that logic has gone completely haywire. When before my dreaming was quite linear and there was at least a greater sequence to things (ie action-reaction ad infinitum) now everything seems to be happening at the same time or should i say that time has faded from focus. 
there are sequences of action, but different "scenes" seem to be shifted from another.
A good example of this was a dream where the basic logic of what and how stuff was going on was so confoundingly different that after waking up I couldn't even visualize what i had experienced, because i couldn't understand it in the slightest! there was no way, no concepts in my mind to project that which i had experienced.

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## EspadaInMyCloset

> I'm WAY too lazy to read all that, but I saw the two rules at the top and how you think it might affect real life. In fact, I use this method a lot, and it IS a lot like dream control. If you're intrested in mastering life control, (yeah, not dream control, LIFE control) rent the movie called "The Secret." It explains EVERYTHING. Trust me, it will chande your life! Now don't think I'm crazy, I'm not saying things insta-poof like in dreams, and your still not gonna be able to fly, but just look into it.



And I was thinking, throughout this whole thing "Damn, this sounds a hell ofa lot like The Secret"
 ::biggrin::

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## Dreamsayer

Ok, this is good but i dont have to much time to read it all. so i am posting to be able to go back, but this is good stuff. I have precognition, this may help me to remember my dreams. & yes, EVERYTHING is controlled by emotions, though society will dummy you up into a nonfunctional state of instict combined with logic.....Just a big fail when you dont use the even more powerful emotions. The observer bringing things into exsistence is very real. if you are good enough, you can just wipe the whole dream & go into a blackscreen & reflect on yourself while you sleep. I did this in delta a few times rescently, you are dead asleep, but you are talking to yourself about your life. You can even pull up past/present/future as refferences... Its kinda strange, but if i can do it... So can the world have this potencial. I hear that people that have been practicing meditation for over a decade can do this. Hmmm, i just started really. for like 4 months i do alpha check when i get home from work, its not even typical meditation, but i reflect inward & it effects my dreams profoundly. I usually just turn on the frequency generator & just relax....Its way easier then meditation & has the same effect. But i sudjest qikung & qigong healing exorcises, they feel awsome. Dont watch TV.. & dont eat fast food.....These 2 elements are really messing us up, i can tell.

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## iLight

*Wow the Cusp this thread is really amazing, it is easy to understand and its Cristal clear for me. You really put a lot of thought into this*

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## kulananda

Good stuff and i agree. Emotions and attention ARE very key in both dreams and waking life. I am working on those in the waking life more than in the dream life. This is part of dream and regular yoga. In some aspect of mind control, changing/chanelling empotions and events is called "refraiming." Where and event has already happend we might not be able to chage it though we can change the emotion around it or negate it and use it to empower oneself in various degrees. When i notice any negative emotion/thoughts in me, i am doing doing a typ of meditaion that has the potential to instantly requalify it/ change/channel it. It does work. I use it before going to sleep to stop the chatter in my brain and program myself for "good" dreams.

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## kulananda

I have never read the secret. Every few years new stuff comes out that reveals the age old truths. And they are age old, since the beginning of time. The laws of reality are constant as far as i know in this cycle of exisctence. In the yoga sciptures is says that every so many years truths will be revealed for the new generations for their benefit and to end suffering etc.

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## The Cusp

> Yeah I know what you mean about the God archetype, i had some real trouble starting the book because of this but once you get into it youll see that this "god" is more of a consciousness...sort of the collection of everyones consciousness kind of thing..in other words much more to do with our minds than the God that sent locusts to Egypt



What book?  You failed to include a link?  Sorry I took so long to respond, but I've been loathe to bump my own thread, especially after 26000 views of just me rambling.

From what I can tell, reliable dream control stems from stable, well established archetypes.  Jesus would be a prime example, but from my theories, Elvis would be an equally powerful archetype.





> When I am with other people, I feel them  deforming my personal world view and perception - they really tug it out  of shape. This is very clear when I take a walk with one other person.  Their effect on the conversation is most noticeable, but in fact the  exact same effect takes place at the level of perception, even if no  words are spoken.



It's been noticing that for years now,  even before I noticed how dream control affects reality, that I've been  choosing the people I hang around with according to how they perceive  me.  I still don't consciously know how this works, but fundametally, it  surely has something to so with shared reality.






> Realy?  He says that?  It's good to have independant confirmation!  I'm going to have to read that, especially since I want to write a book on the subject and I need to check out my competition.  I didn't think I had any!



Well that makes two of us.  I've been putting off my book until I hammered out the specifics of shared dreaming, which pretty much hinges on the peculiarites of the shared dreaming experience.  I've been pretty lax in my efforts, but as far as I can tell, the only difference between dreaming and reality is the number of people you share it with.  I can't help but think my signature holds some clue to reality, shared dream or otherwise.





> I would be interested to know what your personal argument is for your assertion that RL is just a dream like state...what makes you think this is so?



That isn't some fanciful notion for me, it's a logical deduction.  My primary interest has always been dream control.  I've never been satisfied with the theory that belief or expectations determines the level of control an individual had, especially since I've had so many experiences that seem to indicate otherwise.  Just today at work, I had an old retired dude who just sat there and watched us all friggin' day, because he just had nothing better to do.  Normally I would have found that annoying as hell, but because I didn't pay him the slightest attention, it was like he didn't exist. 





> When I am with other people, I feel them  deforming my personal world view and perception - they really tug it out  of shape. This is very clear when I take a walk with one other person.  Their effect on the conversation is most noticeable, but in fact the  exact same effect takes place at the level of perception, even if no  words are spoken.



It's been noticing that for years now,  even before I noticed how dream control affects reality, that I've been  choosing the people I hang around with according to how they perceive  me.  I still don't consciously know how this works, but fundametally, it  surely has something to so with shared reality.





> In some aspect of mind control,  changing/chanelling empotions and events is called  "refraiming.".



Reframing things is key to dream control.  You only fail when you give  up.  For instance, instead of trying to increase the light levels in  your dream, you could just give yourself night vision.  





> I have never read the secret. Every few years  new stuff comes out that reveals the age old truths. And they are age  old, since the beginning of time. The laws of reality are constant as  far as i know in this cycle of exisctence. In the yoga sciptures is says  that every so many years truths will be revealed for the new  generations for their benefit and to end suffering etc.



Same here.  I've never read The Secret, yet I feel like I'm intimately  familiar with it.  From what I can tell of my incidental knowledge of  the subject, it sounds a lot like dream control, only it lacks the  specifics of of dream control.  But to me, knowing how dream control  works explains so much!  Of course I can't stress enough the importance  of of archetypes, as difficult as it is to explain.

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## flyinghawkins

As many of us have experienced, the sleep world is very much the same as the waking one (with the exception of one element, which I'll talk about in a moment). I hope the following will help explain The Cusp's quote: 

The archetypes that make up DCs are arranged primarily by their vibration. So if you feel bad, you are putting out a low vibration (as explained in the Secret) and you will attract similar vibrations whether you are awake or asleep. In a dream, things are not restricted to the physical forms we are accustomed to in RL. So whatever that thing you are observing makes you as the observer feel, is how it will be translated by the brain and so it will appear to you. I feel that's where monsters, strange characters, and oddball DCs come from - they are shaped and perceived only according to the observer's emotion about them. 

But just like real people DCs are alive and independent unto themselves; they are *conscious*, not just projection slides in the brain. It seems that they are invented by you, but I strongly believe that they are not. They are other conscious beings in the collective unconscious with you. This is also why they are influenced just like people in RL, by Emotion. You are seeing the evolving interactions of feelings (and the meanings built into them) evolving and morphing when you are dreaming. This can only happen if there is no time. Think about it: if you smoke cigarettes, it will not appear that your health is degenerating until maybe hundreds of cigarettes later. This is because it worsens _over time_ in RL. In a dream, if you smoke a cigarette or a DC does, instantaneously the DC must take on the feeling/meaning the observer has of "smoking." If the observer likes smoking, he will see someone cool. If the observer is conscious about the health effects, he may see a horrible creature.

BUT, observers aside, the smoker himself has not changed! This is also very important. The archetype "smoking" has not changed, but its appearance will change based upon WHO is looking at it. The thing itself only changes with the observer. This is demonstrated constantly in waking life: one guy thinks God is in the Bible, another guy thinks he's in the Quran. But God himself in unchanged, only re-translated between observers. This translation takes place in the first person without taking any time to transform in dreaming. So I feel that's why everyone seems to be alone in a dream - they are surrounded by their own interpretations of the same things that everybody sees.

So that ties back again into vibration. Because the types of beings/archetypes you interact with depends totally upon that. Not everyone will attract the same types of archetypes to them, because its all based on what the person thinks about. That being said, every thought has a vibration based upon what it is and how a given observer may feel about it. 

(This explains why you can feel your individual world view reshape and change when you're near another person. Their thoughts have vibration as well, and both of yours' together bump against each other and move fluidly, which may give leave impressions on you and on the other person too. The energy between two people interplays because we are on the same wavelength frequency of "human brainwaves.")

Since every thought has a vibration, your _intention_ has a vibration as well. If you are trying to create your reality, waking or dreaming, the image you have in your mind and the way you feel about it definitely has a vibration. If you are thinking about it by yourself, this intention is just a fantasy. But if you take action about it then this intention has the possibility to come true. This is because if it is a good intention, it will attract others who can feel it as well. This is what Deepak Chopra meant when he said that a dream dreamt together can become reality. If someone else resonates with the vibration of your intention, now his intention has snowballed with yours to make the dream come true. The extra momentum added on by each person who is drawn to this vibration may be enough to birth the creation into reality. In group dreaming, everyone has come together under a single intention and that creates the space that they share. Crazy things may pop out because that's what they themselves have attracted to them through their thinking. But if each person feels strongly enough about the intention, this shouldn't hinder what they came together to do.

But I must warn you here. If your intentions and feelings in your thoughts are anything but positive or forward moving, you will begin to attract negativity into your life. Because you are on the same wavelength of negative things, they will also snowball and stick to you and your thoughts. Thought control is infinitely important, just as The Cusp mentioned when he suggested selectively ignoring certain thoughts. Luckily, negative thoughts are much less powerful than positive ones... so you have to think about a negative thing for a lot longer before it will begin to seed.

Does this make sense?

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## Dreamsayer

Ok, your post struck a shared dream i would love to tell.  I also see where i have trouble with the different personalities that we share as spirits in our dreams. We all take people in our life & transform them into our dream journeys. But the only one that was strange to me is talking to my duel self. I call this self my subconscious. It seems to have a path it erges me to follow & sometimes comes close to me instead of running into the rabbit hole. We have even shook hands. I know this is strange, but so is seeing the future.  
  I must warn you that i have had signals that show me copies of what usually happen, so i feel i may have manifested the results through claire knowing or Precognition.   Ok, the dream which matches alot of what Edgar Cayce spoke of.  I was sleeping but talking to myself about how much these visions were a burden & i deserved answers & i screamed out in the darkness, "Its my right!!!" quickly a grassyfield & flower budded bush scenery appeared. These 3 elders that looked like aquatic mammals(otters?) dressed in garb. came to me, I told them of my understanding of vibration & they said i was correct. I then asked them about my visions & they said, "the answer is in time" as they pointed to my right....!!!!   The alarm clock goes off. it was to my right.  I wake up & look at the clock & hit snooze. I turn back over but i drag the red & black from my digital clock, it hangs there as i dose off.  The red & black turn into a book the elders are carrying. I ask, "what is it?", the elder sais, "it is the Akashic. The book belongs to you, but you must be the one to open it", he hands it to me & it dissolves as i touch it. They start walking away, i think ,"i need more answers" They said the answer was in time, so i frantically pull up my alarm clock & observe it...LMAO.... It goes off & wakes me up. I desperately hit snooze & role over. I go back into the dream & the elders are off crossing a bridge with a blue/yellow book under his arm, i desire to know whats in it. The alarm clock goes off & i get up this time & go to work. After my shift, i go home to find an E-mail from my brother. He tells me by stating, "I had this dream about you & you know how i dont remember my dreams." "I was at your house & i saw this book. It was red & black & when i picked it up, i felt this powerful energy.   If you find a red/black book take it, buy it, steel it...  Whatever you do get this book, because it was calling you & was very powerful!!!"  I dont know what he was getting excited about until i heard red/black book. Ever since then, i have been waking up in deep sleep & talking to this blackscreen & accessing information. The same blackscreen i erased monsters with when i was 12. I dont believe to much in spirits or aliens but i looked anyway....   I found iargans... Something i found Edgar Cayce talking about in one of his books. He talked about the iargans as a peaceful race that supposedly have USO bases under our oceans & came from a star cluster in our galaxy...  I still cant understand it. It also spoke of the Zetan greys & the Paladiens at war & the iargans will not intervene....  I mean, its just a crazy dream right??

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## flyinghawkins

Wow - may I ask you, did you know what an Akashic record is at the time you had that dream? If you hadn't mentioned it, I might have told you it was just a dream. But that sounds powerful to me. 

The Akashic record is the history of a person's past lives. By being guided to it, I strongly suspect you were being lead to knowledge of your spiritual nature. That is, the nature of who you are beyond your physical self. I don't know if this is something you believe in, but in my own searching I have come across reference to the Akashic records repeatedly. It seems to be a doorway into communication with your higher self especially since you have continued to commune with the book in this way. Whatever knowledge you gather from it, it is very personal - trust your own instincts about it first! Nobody else can tell you, that's for sure.

There has definitely been alien contact made in history (check into the work of Zechariah Sitchen) that has made a lasting effect. No one has been able to refute the research by the man I just mentioned - he is actually a professor who specializes in ancient Sumer and reported his findings from their old translations. You may find that the story there is similar to what you read from Cayce - especially with that bit about them hiding beneath our oceans. But they certainly weren't harmless as Sitchen tells it. :/

In an interdimensional sense, I'm still figuring what part extraterrestrials play. If you look into the Mayan calendar and "natural time" you may find more information along those lines. I happened to be searching about that today, as a matter of fact. I'm still looking to confirm the information here for myself, but you may find it relevant to your dream. Read the article I found at the site here: http://www.lawoftime.org/timeshipearth/dreamspell.html

If RL itself is a dream, what they mention there isn't inconceivable. It talks about people sharing a group dream that changes with the cycles of the cosmos. It's pretty interesting. And there's stuff there too about building a fourth dimensional earth to free us from the physical dimension, so it is somewhat relevant...

But what I'm personally interested in is dream control on an individual basis. I think I've found something brilliant to help people actually do it using lucid dreaming!  ::banana::  I'm very excited about it, but I don't want to post anything about it unless you guys are interested in hearing it.

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## The Cusp

> The archetypes that make up DCs are arranged primarily by their vibration.



I'm sorry, but this vibration stuff is just too ethereal for me to discuss.  It could mean anything, and there's a lot of variation in the ways people use that term.  I've gotten away with a lot of stuff in this tread, but I still feel an obligation to keep it somewhat mainstream so as to be of use to the average dreamer.  

Not that I don't appreciate what the term vibrations can describe.  In fact encountering a lower vibration is the best theory I can come up with for the horrifying "slowness" described in this thread, Geometric Night Terrors and Fever Dreams.  http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=29794





> Luckily, negative thoughts are much less powerful than positive ones... so you have to think about a negative thing for a lot longer before it will begin to seed.



I strongly disagree with the hippie tree hugging notion that love trumps all, that positive vibes are stronger than negative ones.  I've tried to base my theories exclusively on dreaming experiences (mine and other DJ entries I've read), and I've seen no indication that that positive emotions are stronger than so called negative ones.  From what I can tell, they are equal in every way.  If you think otherwise, I guarantee I can ruin your fucking day to prove it if I have to (but I'd rather not  :Shades wink: ) .  It's just a matter of what you focus on.  There is a reason the ying yang symbol has equal proportions of light and dark.





> But just like real people DCs are alive and independent unto themselves;  they are *conscious*, not just projection slides in the brain.



Perhaps.  The Logos theory comes to mind, but that really has no business in this section of the forum.

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## flyinghawkins

@ The Cusp

On Vibration: I see. Yes, I can understand why you'd feel that way. I will keep it simpler in the future. I brought it up in reference to your response to kulananda on the Secret. I've noticed several people have noticed a connection between the concepts mentioned here and those of the Secret. The main difference is the Secret's heavy focus on vibration and the Law of Attraction, which ties into Positive vs Negative.

On Positive vs. Negative: I can agree to disagree with you on this. I certainly have no desire to argue about it. I have experiences of my own to confirm my conclusion, which I must add does not correlate to your archetype of a "tree hugging hippie." I'd thank you to please keep these names to yourself even if you vehemently disagree with it.

Followers of the Secret have found a way to manipulate their own realities through their vibrations. In their view positive thinking draws positive things to you and they also believe that positive vibes are stronger than negative ones (I'm quoting the speakers in their movie on this one).

Its mainstream reality control that works for people. However its not so detailed or specific as lucid dreaming could be once it's mastered. The link seems to be programming archetypes in your dreams which correspond to a certain vibrational field, and then letting the Secret's law of attraction carry it out in RL. 

To my mind, the problem then becomes having lucid dreams reliably and regularly.

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## Jamal

Wicked post Cusp. I really enjoyed reading that.

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## JordanRHughes

Very interesting read. I am going to follow up on this thread when I have more time. Thanks for sharing.

Jordan..

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## The Cusp

> @ The CuspTo my mind, the problem then becomes having lucid dreams reliably and regularly.



I think that's almost everyone's problem on this site.  :smiley:   It's certainly my biggest problem.

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## WiLdMaN_78

> After a lot experimentation, I have some thoughts on how this works in practice.
> 
> There seems to be a more general control, rather than specific control.  Say I wanted to summon a monster with 6 arms, 8 eyes, purple fur, hooves and a tail.  It most likely wouldn't work.  But I could summon a general monster, and then tweak it's characteristics until becomes like I want.
> 
> It also seems to work more reliably when you focus on your goal, but not how you accomplish it.  First of all, it's really hard to know where to begin to make something happen.  When you have infinite possibilities at your disposal, it's hard to pick just one.  By focusing on what you want, the "how" will take care of it's self.
> 
> *
> Back in the Real World*
> I've been keeping an eye out for this process in action in the waking world, and I'm beginning to see it happening more and more.  I've been a little shy in practicing this type of dream control in RL, mainly because I feel bad about manipulating people like that.  
> ...



I have read articles similar to what you mentioned concerning waking state=waking+dreaming state. I believe it had to do with the Pineal Gland. Also I have some experience that tie in general vs total control and waking+dreaming states. In my last patch of WILD's ( and it's been a while) all throughout the day I would repeat specific suggestions to myself. A good example of this was "I will see through my bedroom door". When I reached lucidity and got to my door............there was a porthole in it  I had many lulz when the dream was over especially because I am the epitome of a smart ass, apparently my subconscious is also.

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## imnewtothis

So, like..
If I were watching T.V or playing a video game..
Everything around the T.V would pretty much vanish and my concentration would move all into the T.V..
Right? :s

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## Soulnote

With the first rule, what about things that newly appear as you explore? Like if you are just running through your dream world with you SC mind making things that you don't pay that much attention to. I'm not trying to poke holes in your theory but I am just asking you to elaborate on that.

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## Dreamsayer

Its all in the frequency.   Like the church chimes on my alarm clock...  I can hear those same 5 notes for 15 minutes after i wake up..  but it isnt just a repeat of a recording.   It is in the wind..  i can here fans playing this wind chime with the same frequencies well after i awake, so your hypnopompic state allows for translation in the awake world.  Which in essence will allow for you to bring these frequencies to life that are in our sleep.  This is the key which allows for us to better understand telepathic unity among ourselves,animals,trees  & shared dreams. Only ones who can put themselves into hypnotic states will truly understand,  as 80% of the world are more solidified than thought.  Excellent post.

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## The Cusp

> So, like..
> If I were watching T.V or playing a video game..
> Everything around the T.V would pretty much vanish and my concentration would move all into the T.V..
> Right? :s



Right.  I'm reminded of dreams where I was watching TV and my surroundings faded away until I was in the show.  

Or sometimes you'll see young kids watching TV, and you can talk to them but they don't hear you.





> With the first rule, what about things that  newly appear as you explore? Like if you are just running through your  dream world with you SC mind making things that you don't pay that much  attention to. I'm not trying to poke holes in your theory but I am just  asking you to elaborate on that.



I think of those as satellite properties of the main archetype your attention is focused on, or peripheral archetypes.  They exist through the main active archetype, until you focus your attention onto one of them and then they become the dominant archetype that drives the creative process in your dreams.

That's pretty much the main algorithm of dreams.  Main archetype produces satellite associations until one of those associated properties captures your attention and become the main archetype, which produces it's own association until one of those captures your attention...  On an on all night.

Of  course archetypes don't necessarily have to produce something new.  They can alter existing elements.  For instance, in a recent lucid dream, I was being chased by a motorbike gang.  I ran into the woods where I could better ignore them, and a glowy pixie like thing caught my attention.  When I looked back to the motor bike gang, they had become an elven army.  Obviously I associate pixies with elves and such.

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## Soulnote

> I think of those as satellite properties of the main archetype your attention is focused on, or peripheral archetypes.  They exist through the main active archetype, until you focus your attention onto one of them and then they become the dominant archetype that drives the creative process in your dreams.
> 
> That's pretty much the main algorithm of dreams.  Main archetype produces satellite associations until one of those associated properties captures your attention and become the main archetype, which produces it's own association until one of those captures your attention...  On an on all night.
> 
> Of  course archetypes don't necessarily have to produce something new.  They can alter existing elements.  For instance, in a recent lucid dream, I was being chased by a motorbike gang.  I ran into the woods where I could better ignore them, and a glowy pixie like thing caught my attention.  When I looked back to the motor bike gang, they had become an elven army.  Obviously I associate pixies with elves and such.



I'm 15, that made near no sense to me...

Don't understand archetype or algorithm, but I THINK peripheral is like peripheral vision, which humans have

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## jguitar

i likes the comparison to schrodingers cat. in fact yesterday i was talking to my friend aboutbdreams and stuff and i made the comparison to the cat before i looked here  ::D:  

i think it can be applied to real life too, because what we see is light bouncing off things. 

ex-i see a house. it is red. i can only see the front side because mybrain can catch light from only thebaide of the house facing me. through logic and memory, i can assure you that the other side of the house exists. however, since my brain cannot see the other side of the house, it may not exist. 

this concept is easier to visualize in a dream, but the other side of the house could be a void, or sonething obscure as if in a dream in real life. the probability of that is just too low. in a dream anything has legitamate possibility.

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## terezrucker

hi I need your help really badly I'm having trouble once I become lucid controlling my dreams for some reason every time I try to control something like when I wAnt some thing to appear or something to happen well something does happen but not what I wanted like the other when I had a dream and realized I was in a dream and became lucid the 1st thing I did was change the setting that's something I'm really good at then I  seen a worm in some grass all of a sudden it became like 200ft tall and had a gold crown on it's head i got creeped out so I flew up (flying is a work in progress for me ) as I got higher I saw that there were these giant worms all over my deam world infecting it n blowing stuff up then I became afraid and fell out the sky into a lake I was hovering over  I began to drown then the big worm with the crown came from the water and a claw came from it's body n he took a swing at me then I woke up so I wanted to ask because things like that happen all the time to me in lds also most of the time the dream won't do what I want it to can u help

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## Velzhaed

> hi I need your help really badly I'm having trouble once I become lucid controlling my dreams for some reason every time I try to control something like when I wAnt some thing to appear or something to happen well something does happen but not what I wanted like the other when I had a dream and realized I was in a dream and became lucid the 1st thing I did was change the setting that's something I'm really good at then I  seen a worm in some grass all of a sudden it became like 200ft tall and had a gold crown on it's head i got creeped out so I flew up (flying is a work in progress for me ) as I got higher I saw that there were these giant worms all over my deam world infecting it n blowing stuff up then I became afraid and fell out the sky into a lake I was hovering over  I began to drown then the big worm with the crown came from the water and a claw came from it's body n he took a swing at me then I woke up so I wanted to ask because things like that happen all the time to me in lds also most of the time the dream won't do what I want it to can u help



The run-on is strong with this one.

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## The Cusp

> hi I need your help really badly I'm having trouble once I become lucid controlling my dreams for some reason every time I try to control something like when I wAnt some thing to appear or something to happen well something does happen but not what I wanted like the other when I had a dream and realized I was in a dream and became lucid the 1st thing I did was change the setting that's something I'm really good at then I  seen a worm in some grass all of a sudden it became like 200ft tall and had a gold crown on it's head i got creeped out so I flew up (flying is a work in progress for me ) as I got higher I saw that there were these giant worms all over my deam world infecting it n blowing stuff up then I became afraid and fell out the sky into a lake I was hovering over  I began to drown then the big worm with the crown came from the water and a claw came from it's body n he took a swing at me then I woke up so I wanted to ask because things like that happen all the time to me in lds also most of the time the dream won't do what I want it to can u help



This is a perfect example of the second rule of dreaming.  The more attention you give something, the more related detail it creates.

The worm hooked your attention, and that focused attention caused the worm archetype to grow out of control.

You just have to learn to break away and focus on something else when that happens.  The only real control you have is where you choose to focus your attention.

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## WarBenifit156

I have a question, I tried to Earthbend in a lucid dream a couple of days ago and it didn't work. I concentrate a lot on it but not too much. But still nothing happens. Any tips?

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## The Cusp

> I have a question, I tried to Earthbend in a lucid dream a couple of days ago and it didn't work. I concentrate a lot on it but not too much. But still nothing happens. Any tips?



That's a tough one.  While looking at the earth, try to impose archetypes that embody what you want to accomplish.  Perhaps stuff like earthquake, hill, mountain, bulldozer, chasm or canyon.  Anything that is related to how you want to earth to move.  Maybe waves like water.  It will probably take a lot of work to master it, but you should be able to make at least something happen.

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## Bomber66a

Hey Cusp,

Just wanted to say thank you so much for this thread (I should probably PM you) also the link to the shared dreams thread is awesome. I have yet to finish this thread or that one but you guys are just confirming my suspicions.

I am still very new to lucid dreaming but it feels as if my thoughts and ideas (that I had prior to knowing what lucid dreaming was) about dreams are correct  and their effect on 'reality'.

Essentially:
a) Nearly everyone on this site seems - to me - to be exceptionally smart.

b) I view 'reality' as our consciousness creating/manifesting itself into a 3 dimensional body (technically 4 but possibly more) and then as our conscious 'bumps' into someone else's, reality is 'created'. 
Also, just because no one is paying attention to something doesn't mean it's not there. As long as someone 'knows' that it's there then it exists. I apologise, that's very poorly explained and I will extrapolate further as soon as I get through the thread.

Also, I have finals in a month and I really should be focussing on them so I may not be able to post for a while  :Sad:  but I probably will  ::D: 







> Mankind has always manipulated physical reality as we've pleased.  It needn't be through mental super powers, but can come about from science and technology.  Any technologically advance people would seem like gods to primitive people.
> 
> The development of science could be said to follow these rules as well.  Paying attention to a problem or question until you begin to uncover related detail.

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## Mayatara

> First off, I want to mention an article I came across (which I can't find at the moment) which supports my dreaming/awake link.  It said that the dreaming state persists even while awake.  So while you dream, you are just dreaming.  But while you are awake, you are awake + dreaming.  It would suggest dreaming is the totality of existence.  Anyone see anything about that?  I've had too many beers to find it right now.



Well, I don't know about that article, but it really is like that. What we see in RL is not what really "exists". Our brain does not waste energy absorbing all the details and information from the "outside" world. It captures a few things and fills in the rest of the picture with stuff it expects to be there according to previous experience and expectations. That's why sometimes we don't see something that was right in front of our eyes. There's a famous story that is usually mentioned to represent this: when the first caravels arrived to the American coastline, the Indians didn't see them until they were really close to the shore, because they had never seen anything like it and their brains ignored them at first. It took some time for their minds to even consider these objects as "real" and to decide "wasting" resources to make them "visible" on the Indians minds. The brain just kept the boats invisible and out of the picture until they were so obviously there, the mind had to deal with its presence and recognize them consciously.
When we're awake, we're still half-dreaming, because our brain recreates the world around us in its own personal manner. What I see is surely different from what you see even if we're in the same time and place. It's like a shared dream that has personal areas and overlapping areas. If you point my attention to some object I wasn't seeing before, it becomes real to me to and we're then sharing that dream-like object. Don't forget that matter isn't really real, it is just a cloud of endless probabilities that we collapse with our conscience, our attention, just like we do in dreams.

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## Mayatara

> I've hit that same speed barrier while flying.  The problem is in order to have movement, you need to be moving in relation to something else.  Once you start going fast enough, everything just becomes one big blur and you lose all sense of motion.



I can fly at really high speeds and I have no problem with that. Once I even flew at what seemed to be the speed of light. It felt like crossing several universes as if they were 2D... Hard to explain. But the dream didn't fade, the images I was seeing of the sequential universes were clear and focused. I even choose one that attracted me the most and stopped there. I think speed limits are only imposed by yourself but they can be overcome if you just free your mind from being worried about creating the next landscape. I never create the landscape. I simply move freely through worlds I don't take the slightest second of thought creating. Try it  :smiley:

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## Mayatara

> That's quite the inconsistency we have here, in that semi-lucids seem to offer better control than full lucids.  Since it's awareness of being in a dream that lends you control, it would be reasonable to assume that the better the awareness, the better the control.  That just doesn't seem to be the case.
> My only explanation is that we (myself included) are scatter brained victims of the digital age.   Technology has conditioned us to the point where we can barely focus on anything for any length of time.



My own theory on this is that when you're half-lucid you know you're dreaming but you don't think too much about it, you just do things naturally and they happen as you expect them to. When you're fully lucid, your rational mind may take over, not allowing spontaneous intuitive creation to simply work its magic. You start thinking too much about how to make things happen, therefore blocking them. There is a parallelism between this and attaining enlightenment. Masters are always saying, if you wish and crave for enlightenment all the time, it won't come to you, only when you stop thinking about it you will achieve it. Still, if you never have that goal, it probably won't come either. So the secret is in keeping the balance, a very subtle balance, between knowing you can have it and not thinking that you want it.

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## TheUncanny

It's been a while since I've been on, and decided to check the ol forums out to see how things were going (nice new logo, or "new" logo...not sure how long its been that way).  Anywho, I was reading the first page or so of this discussion, and feel your explanation archetypes is spot on.  I think one of the reasons people tend to have problems controlling their dreams is because they are coming from a purely logical and rational angle.  "I am in a dream, since my dream is simply my imagination, there is no reason why I shouldn't be able to do _____ if I imagine I can."  I know I have used this approach, and though it can work, for me it doesn't work that often or that easily.

Dreams tends to be very emotion-driven, naturally speaking.  Instead of trying to overpower the natural inclinations of how you dream (and bend it to your will with sheer force), why not use a little psychological judo and simply redirect the momentum of the dream itself? Why try to stop a train dead in its tracks with your bare hands when you can just derail it with a small ramp? For example, I have tried and failed many times to simply manifest something out of nothing. However, lets say you want a gun...try reaching in your pocket the next time and see what happens. Pockets, as an archetype, are associated with containing things...you can use that to your advantage.  Doors, as an archetype, are associated with entering new places...you can use those to teleport from place to place instead of flying (think Matrix, the 2nd or 3rd one...I forget). 

Anyway, I was reading about synchronicity between dreams and real life, or just thoughts and real life...to which I began to grow dubious.  A lot of what you were saying makes sense on some level, like how focusing only on positive things can alter your (perception) of your reality...I don't necessarily think there is a direct connection however, at least not like in dreams. Sure, a positive mood and make those around you act differently, and that could possibly result in beneficial things for you that otherwise may not have happened...but that's not really the same phenomenon that happens in dreams. Your mind isn't actually "creating" reality, that reduces to sociology.  

The other thing that concerned me was that part your dream-to-waking life approach is very similar to confirmation bias.  In fact, it's almost as if you are taking this natural inclination known as confirmation bias, and making a conscious effort to amplify it.  There is no doubt this will have a very real effect on your perception of reality, but again, that is a tad different than how it would effect physical reality.  Like before, there may by indirect results that are related to this shift in your perception...but only via external natural mechanisms like sociology. Since the vessels of those effects are still bound by physical laws, there is only so much changing your perceptions can accomplish.  You won't be flying anywhere, in other words, but you can theoretically manipulate how other people act around you (to some degree). 

Anyway, back on point...so all of these thoughts are going through my mind when reading your stuff, and like I said before, I was skeptical.  That night I was talking to a friend of mine, and we got into a discussion about how people might truly be savages at heart based on how people tend to act in the absence of authority.  I used the example of a stop light going out, and how even something this simple can lead to a breakdown in normal (traffic) behavior...such as people not treating the intersection like a 4-way stop.  On my way to work this morning, I was listening to the radio, and sure enough, a big issue about a traffic light being out on a major street, causing many traffic problems. 

Now, did I have a part in that, or was it confirmation bias?  The knee jerk reaction is synchronicity...however of all of the different things I had talked about that day, or all of the possible things that could have lead to a "synchronic"  event, the odds were actually pretty good that at least one of them would match up with something that was going to happen the next day.  But, none of those things that didn't tripped my radar, after all, why would they?  I was completely oblivious to all of the (potentially) millions of non-synchronic events that happened that day, but since one did happen, I involuntarily "cherry picked" it.  That would be the logical answer, but like Aristotle said "the mark of an intelligent mind is being able to entertain a thought without accepting it".  I will keep my mind open and see what happens, because honestly I got a little kick out of this traffic light thing.

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## Caden

> My own theory on this is that when you're half-lucid you know you're dreaming but you don't think too much about it, you just do things naturally and they happen as you expect them to. When you're fully lucid, your rational mind may take over, not allowing spontaneous intuitive creation to simply work its magic. You start thinking too much about how to make things happen, therefore blocking them. There is a parallelism between this and attaining enlightenment. Masters are always saying, if you wish and crave for enlightenment all the time, it won't come to you, only when you stop thinking about it you will achieve it. Still, if you never have that goal, it probably won't come either. So the secret is in keeping the balance, a very subtle balance, between knowing you can have it and not thinking that you want it.



 Kind of like finding love in that way.

And yes there is a magic that lucidity interrupts.

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## Caden

A few nights ago I woke remembering me realizing that I was debating on whether the dream I was seeing should be realized as a dream.  I was debating on holding myself back from lucidity!  I think this is the problem with the whole approach most take to lucidity.  

This is my growing theory: It's not about chemicals, biology, or the way we are wired it's about how we are trained as children to desire to see dreams as dreams and not as something more.  Thus we are trained to shield ourselves from the reality of dreams and our deeper realizations on ourselves, this is seen as both safe and comfortable.  We are drawn to "safe and comfortable" and it is a struggle to pull ourselves out of this well ingrained comfort zone.  I think this is why there are no reliable drugs to help us LD and why the mechanical devises are also less than effective.  In the end we can always fool ourselves.  For example we all eat stuff we know is bad but we still fool ourselves while completely wakeful and lucid, and this despite some of the incredibly silly things we tell ourselves!  We have to get over fooling ourselves, this is when I realized that breaking down the nonlucid barrier permanently is going to be really hard.  Still I think it can be done and am working on it.  I feel confident about this because I know now I have the key to this, I just have to find it.

The person behind it all is you!  So where do you start with this conversation?

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## The Cusp

> There's a famous story that is usually mentioned to represent this: when the first caravels arrived to the American coastline, the Indians didn't see them until they were really close to the shore, because they had never seen anything like it and their brains ignored them at first. It took some time for their minds to even consider these objects as "real" and to decide "wasting" resources to make them "visible" on the Indians minds. The brain just kept the boats invisible and out of the picture until they were so obviously there, the mind had to deal with its presence and recognize them consciously.



The way I heard it, they didn't see nothing, but instead saw something created from their own personal inventory archetypes. And I'd wager many saw different things while looking at the same boat.   I've actually heard more recent examples of this happening on Coast to Coast AM from time to time.  Several people encounter something strange and each sees something different yet the same on an archetypal level.





> When we're awake, we're still half-dreaming, because our brain recreates the world around us in its own personal manner. What I see is surely different from what you see even if we're in the same time and place. It's like a shared dream that has personal areas and overlapping areas. If you point my attention to some object I wasn't seeing before, it becomes real to me to and we're then sharing that dream-like object. Don't forget that matter isn't really real, it is just a cloud of endless probabilities that we collapse with our conscience, our attention, just like we do in dreams.



Nothing to add to that, you covered it too well  :smiley: 





> I can fly at really high speeds and I have no  problem with that. Once I even flew at what seemed to be the speed of  light. It felt like crossing several universes as if they were 2D...  Hard to explain. But the dream didn't fade, the images I was seeing of  the sequential universes were clear and focused. I even choose one that  attracted me the most and stopped there. I think speed limits are only  imposed by yourself but they can be overcome if you just free your mind  from being worried about creating the next landscape.



I don't want to get into this too deeply right now, since I logged in to post something else.  I'll agree the only limitations are conceptual ones, but I think there might be  a couple of rare ones that can't be overcome.  "Speed of Light" is irrelevant, since there is no way to measure how fast you are going.  So let me rephrase and say increasing your speed indefinitely is impossible, at least in a controlled manner.  I suppose you could get locked into nightmarish fractal loop to adjust for the constant perspective changed needed, but even then you'd only be moving relative to the current fractal which can't really be seen as an increase in speed.






> I never create the  landscape. I simply move freely through worlds I don't take the  slightest second of thought creating. Try it



Oh don't you?  Rule 5 says you do!  I'm not much of a realm sculptor myself, and my surroundings are not something I micro manage.   You don't need to create it all manually, but you do need to remember you have a choice.





> My own theory on this is that when you're  half-lucid you know you're dreaming but you don't think too much about  it, you just do things naturally and they happen as you expect them to.  When you're fully lucid, your rational mind may take over, not allowing  spontaneous intuitive creation to simply work its magic. You start  thinking too much about how to make things happen, therefore blocking  them.



I think the dream state is a delicate thing that the subconscious knows  how to maintain with great skill.  I think bringing full consciousness  into the picture overrides that instinctive distribution of awareness,  bringing along invocations of real world physics.

Only way around it is to learn to merge the two, a common archetype in  it's self among the new agers.





> There is a parallelism between this and attaining enlightenment.  Masters are always saying, if you wish and crave for enlightenment all  the time, it won't come to you, only when you stop thinking about it you  will achieve it. Still, if you never have that goal, it probably won't  come either. So the secret is in keeping the balance, a very subtle  balance, between knowing you can have it and not thinking that you want  it.



Dream control is nothing if not about balance.  I got my best results in  my dream influencing experiments when I didn't even get around to  "doing" my various means I was using to achieve my ends.  I chose my  subject to send and said I'd get around to the sending part later.  My  targets began getting hits before I even tried to send.

Are you coming from a magical perspective with that last part?  I sounds  a lot like some of the magical school parallels I've been researching.   Chaos magic in particular is practically interchangeable with dream  control on every level.

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## The Cusp

Ok, Mayatara distracted me for a bit there, but now to post what I came here for.

Looks like I have to add a 5th rule.

*Rule 5: You are always in control, even if you don't realize it*
Nothing really new about this, I've said it before and it's always been a part of dream control and how dreams are formed.  But it's a constant, and since there are so few constants in dreaming, that's gotta make it important.

Still not entirely sure what the ramifications of this new rule are, if any.  Gotta let it stew for a bit, but the fact that it's a constant makes it important enough to be it's own rule.  I suppose ultimately it would mean that nobody can hurt you but yourself, which is again nothing new.

*
The Dark Side of dream control*

This is a thread I saw on AboveTopSecret.com which is a conspiracy website.
Somebody posted a thread explaining how they pulled off the miracle of the dancing sun at Fatima.  What he described was the the most well polished piece of dream control engineering I've ever seen.

MAJOR SPOILER WARNING, Major System Used for Making Miracles (i.e. Levitation and move) in Religious, page 1

It it's most basic level, the scheme takes advantage of specific visual quirks to make it appear that something is moving when it's not.  He outlines the mechanisms for how these work explicitly.  

What comes next is classic dream control.  They train the eyes to do specific visual quirks in response to a tone, basically creating an archetype and trigger combo through repetition.  They use a religious context where miracles happen, essentially fine tuning the possible outcomes.  The whole thing is dream control on a scale I've never dreamed of.  Not to mention the emotional impact of seeing a major miracle in a large crowd like at Fatima.

I totally buy it.  The whole thing is just too elegant to be made up.  Every element fits in perfectly.  
That thread also made me realize I've totally been under utilizing _triggers_ in my dream control.  Of course you wouldn't want to become too reliant on triggers, as you'd be limited to those already prepared, but a few well trained trigger activated dream powers could come in very handy when lucid.


*
Rewrite?*

I've been saying I'm going to rewrite this for a long time now, and I'm saying it again!  I think the reason I haven't yet is because the thread format is insufficient to contain what I'm trying to convey.  So I'm creating a discussion board dedicated to dream control.  The different sections a forum allows will allow me to break the topic up and hopefully keep things more coherent.

I also won't hold back on the shared dreaming and real world control applications there.  In fact I'm hoping to invite people who practice dream control under other names, so it won't be strictly about dreaming.  I mean it's strictly about dream control, but if that means taking tips from magical schools who are basically using dream control, then so be it.  

I've cobbled together a basic site so far, but if anyone knows about setting up and running a free forum, and also wants to volunteer, PM me!

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## DeeryTheDeer

Amazing thread, I'm loving your thoughts and observations, especially with how much depth you go into them.

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## jarrhead

WAY back to Synchronicity, a rather short and simple example.

We just moved to Albuquerque.  My mother packed a TON of food supplies (she buys in bulk and can never use em, so ships them with us.)

We bought some cod and were looking everywhere in the store for seafood seasoning.  After an hour we found it.

As soon as we come home, we find a MASSIVE container of it.  


It's been there the whole time, we just weren't paying attention.

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## jarrhead

> hi, I just wanted to say that I like your ideas!
> all very interesting.




Off topic..

Congratulations on your ONLY post and you joined in 2008! It's like playing Where's Waldo!  ::banana:: ;

 :tongue2:

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## jarrhead

> Lol don't worry - I've never even met this person in real life so we won't argue about anything. By the way, she's not really human anyway - and whoever or whatever tries to harm her will regret doing so.




So I heard Tim has a thing for animals.  :wink2: 

Just messin'.  Haha.

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## jarrhead

My last two posts were OT.   I've been reading this whole thread for several hours now trying to take it all in.

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## jarrhead

> ...people subconsciously look to the top left when remembering something, but look to the top right when required to create a mental image.  This seems to be universal for everyone, and could aid with summoning in dreams.  
> 
> If you wanted to summon something from memory, logically, you should try to make it appear on your left side.  You want to create something in a lucid, try to make it appear on your right side.



I just found the secret to life.

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## jarrhead

> Oh uh.. Moonshine and Arutard made it in this beautiful thread. Please don't argue with them as they will spam it and ruin it completely.



You couldn't have been more right.

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## WuChi

I think about emotion like excitement how to control that if for example I'm having sex with her everything grate but in sec i get so horny that its hard to stay Lucid before u will come excitement is so strong that even if I finish, just once had nice erection that I see it in LD but mostly sex shortest your LD u end and wake wet

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## Zenithar66

Interesting post, amazing detail and very usefull practical info.
once point, about emotion, i agree totally and completely, but i also, from experience know that DC's are not all puppets at all, infcat, many are very logical, and autonomous, almost separate from you, you simply cannot influence certain DC's as far as im concerned.
some may even challenge you in your authority and assert there own reality! 
maybe im wrong and i just dont have enough control but that's how i feel at the minute.

you have hit the nail on the head though with emotions because without learning to regulate adn suppress certain emotions at certain times with a passive authority you will very quickly awaken!!

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## The Cusp

> , but i also, from experience know that DC's are not all puppets at all, infcat, many are very logical, and autonomous, almost separate from you, you simply cannot influence certain DC's as far as im concerned.
> some may even challenge you in your authority and assert there own reality!



You are always in complete control of your DCs even if you don't know it.  YOu just have to learn to recognize how it happens.  Most times it's just the context of the dream that determines their behavior, which can be altered.  But micromanaging every aspect of the dream and every nuance of a DCs behavior is probably not the best use of lucid time.  I'm satisfied to generalized alterations to their behavior.

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## WuChi

[QUOTE=The Cusp;1821503]You are always in complete control of your DCs even if you don't know it. i wont say the same as in my dream as for example i get to bus i was alone i experiment with summons i want one person appear so I close my eyes imagine they are stare at me didn't work after I check what behind me but none when I lost my faith turn back again and there was full bus of people.... weird cause there was old and fat persons what is really rare in my LD I said Ok here it goes I hook in one girl standing next to me my age I say she turn back to my and get back to her position I stabilize my dream and did it again when I see she is going away then she ask do I know maybe where is Lucas(in my live didn't know a person with this name) screw that different situation I'm with DC looking like my old friend I was Lucid but I want my friend to by next to me by all the dream dream was long but I get a problem a Police one Female police orange hair little bit overweight she what to stop as so OK in sec between us and her table appear so we block the road she could't get over it and i try to change her appearance be more beautiful and have blond hair close me eyes imagine she is changing use visualisation open me eyes she still was the same look at me with no mimic in her face OK one more try turn back trying to stabilize looking around get calm know there is no one then me here look back BAM she was there holding me friend DC strangle him I thought no problem I'm in control I know that, so I come closer to her and without warning she try punch me but I grab her hand...I sad on anger FU then I just turn away and go to score anything... all those DC react weird I have more trying in manipulating DC but its always not like I WON'T IT.. they don't disappear, change, morph, give four different names... so correct me in your eyes I'm noob or maybe just a person ho don't have social live(don't know how to talk with people so DC too) but still I change little bit subject of my question

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## PlanesWalker

Anyone here experiment with supplements for lucid dreaming?

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## The Cusp

Haven't really looked int supplements much myself, although I did try to turn some M'M's into lucidity placebos once.  Didn't really work.

@WuChi:  I have no idea what you're talking about.  Punctuation and paragraphs might help get your point across.


I just can't motivate myself to rewrite this thread.  Maybe some videos would be better, more concise.  Any one know anything about making youtube videos?

Edit:Just wrote a thread titled "Blindspots for fun and profit" and wanted to link to it in this thread.
http://www.dreamviews.com/f14/using-...9/#post1929272

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## TBdreamweaver

i am new to the site ...i found your manuscripts extremely informative...thank you

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## The Cusp

Just wanted to link a thread I wrote on Novelty in dream control.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f14/harnes...ovelty-137514/

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## Wakeup34

> *1. Everything in your dreams requires your attention to exist.
> *
> 
> While this may seem obvious, it's still one of the most basic principles of dreaming.  The only things that exist in a dream are things that you are aware of.  It's not complete world that you wander around in and explore.  As soon as you stop paying attention to something and forget about it, it ceases to exist.  If you are in a closed room and can't see the outside, then the outside doesn't exist.  When you open to door to go outside, it could lead anywhere, into space or hell or the city of the mole people.  
> 
> The point is, nothing exists in your dreams until you become aware of it.  Much like Schrodinger's Cat. Schrödinger's cat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> This can be a useful tool I've used effectively in the past to deal enemies while lucid.  If you don't pay something any attention, it will cease to exist.  Kind of like when your parents told you as a kid to just ignore whoever is bothering you (I hate it when they're right!).
> 
> ...




Yes, I agree.. if something's bad in a dream, ignore it and it'll go away. basically, you can do anything in a dream that you believe you can do. If you think you're gonna get chased by the growling dog looking at you, you will, similarly if you believe it's harmless and will just walk away, away it walks  :tongue2:

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## The Cusp

It's not belief!!  My DJ is full of incidents where I believed something would happen, then something completely unexpected happened.  Belief is unreliable.  I'd go so far as to say it doesn't exist.  That's right, I don't believe in belief.  There's only programming and focused attention.

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## The Cusp

I haven't been very active on DV lately.  I'm still pursuing my obsession with dream control, only I've moved my shit to a different pile.  I'm approaching it from the angle of magic and the occult, which is essentially the same thing in my opinion.  I've been learning a great deal about Archetypal Engineering and real world application, as well as refining my ideas of what an archetype is and how to use it.

I do my thing over on Occult Corpus

Those interested in exploring my ideas of what dream control is can look up posts I've made over there.  It's presented in the context of varying magical paradigms, but everything I write about there is directly applicable to dream control.  You don't need to believe in magic, I don't want your belief, only your attention.

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## oneironautics

great thread even if its 8 years old :-)

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## ARandomViewer

No, No, No keep on I love this and it is really helping me out.

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## Mzzkc

> I think this is true nearly all the time...very true.
> 
> There are some instances where the first rule doesn't fit, though. For example, once I fell asleep on the plane and the music from my headphones bled into my lucid dream. In that dream, my attention or lack thereof could not have stopped the music from playing in my ears. So there are times where external stimuli can possibly affect us. 
> 
> If you needed to direct attention for something to exist in a dream, then how could dreams begin? You can't direct your attention when nothing is there. And so that means something has to be there _before_ you direct your attention so that you_ can_ direct your attention to it. 
> 
> So basically I feel that the OP is a very true statement, but it is not absolute. I think there may be a piece or two that still needs to be added here. Thanks Cusp.



Oh wow. Stumbling over this little gem is like stumbling over the krabby patty secret formula.

No spoilers for people still playing along at home, but this pulled together so many little pieces it's crazy.

And everyone just kinda ignored it.

Mmmm. Suspicious.

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