# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity > Lucid Aids >  >  Novadreamer

## spiritofthewolf

I am so tempted to by the NovaDreamer...i keep looking at it and reading about it, and the lucidity site brings you to a link where they sell it for 249 dollars  :Sad: 

what do u all think?

yay or nay

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## dreamship

*Editing because upon rereading it it sounded more harsh and mean than the way it sounded as I wrote it earlier.*

What is it you want this machine for? I thought from your posts you have had tons of lucid dreams and met your &#39;dream guide&#39;. Please post spiritual stuff like dream guides and such in the proper forum.

I think I remember paying only &#036;175.00 for my ND but I had to have it sent for repairs and pay &#036;35.00 and now I don&#39;t have it. The only thing it did for me was train me to wake just before the lights flashed. I did see the lights in a dream once that I recall but did not become lucid. The mask was hard to wear.

You could read Patricia Garfield&#39;s book Control Your Dreams and if you believe in all that spiritual hooha then pray to your Goddess, or your dream guide to help you become lucid. Work on your dream recall. Write down your dreams even if you don&#39;t want. And try to relax.

It is hard, but there is no magic pill. I&#39;d really like a magic pill because I am lazy also :-) I have a hard time doing my own dream journals and sometimes my dream recall is really low or not at all. Like anything worth while it is work.

*Sorry if it sounds harsh even after the edit. I tend to talk rather directly and in short scentences and others might read &#39;anger&#39; or whatever.*


 ::bigteeth::

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## tedjyc

> I am so tempted to by the NovaDreamer...i keep looking at it and reading about it, and the lucidity site brings you to a link where they sell it for 249 dollars 
> 
> what do u all think?
> 
> yay or nay
> [/b]



I&#39;ve had mine for about 4 years & it was helpful - I used it about 20-30 nights over several months in the first year. It about doubled my number of LD. But it did require doing 4-6 light based reality tests during the day to work.  It also seemed to become less effective after about 30 times due to a kind of habituation.  If the money isn&#39;t a strain & it gets you to put out more effort have a few more LD it may be worth it to you.  I rarely use it any more however.

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## ~Erin~

correct me if I&#39;m wrong but I don&#39;t think you can&#39;t buy it anymore.  I tried to buy one last year but with some more reading  it said it was discontinued.

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## Lucidbulbs

Discontinued? I wonder why, I haven&#39;t used or own a Novadreamer but if it doesn&#39;t harm the user and it does increase their LDs, why should they stop selling it?

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## nina

Yeah I&#39;m pretty sure they discontinued this, you can&#39;t really buy it anywhere. Except maybe Ebay. And yeah...I was wondering the same thing as dreamship...why would you need a novadreamer...I thought you were having lucids pretty regularly.

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## ~Erin~

> Discontinued? I wonder why, I haven&#39;t used or own a Novadreamer but if it doesn&#39;t harm the user and it does increase their LDs, why should they stop selling it?
> [/b]




I have no idea why. Maybe there wasn&#39;t enough people buying them anymore in the recent years, so they decided to discontinue it.  It was on the expensive side to buy one so I can see why, if I am right about the sales. I think it said they discontinued   the novadreamer in 2006 or maybe 2005.

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## slothming

> correct me if I&#39;m wrong but I don&#39;t think you can&#39;t buy it anymore.  I tried to buy one last year but with some more reading  it said it was discontinued.
> [/b]



Yeah where can you get it now? Me wants one too  :yumdumdoodledum:

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## theholotrope

I tracked one down about 4 years ago. I was all excited but you cant sleep with the damned thing. Its huge and uncomfortable and I never saw any lights. I think its just easier to train your self to notice them naturally than with this aid. The cool thing is that it came with a course made by Stephen Laberge and its pretty comprehensive and it builds on your dream recall and lucid dreams. Its based on the book but just organized in a better way to take you through the course in about 4 months or so.

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## nina

I think the Nova Dreamer was a bit of a fiasco. It hasn&#39;t been made for a few years now. There was alot of hype about it...and it was very expensive, selling for &#036;250-&#036;500, yet people found it uncomfortable and not very effective. Now, if you spend a minute online checking around, you can find alternative devices that are similar to the ND but much cheaper...and probably cheaply made as well. Not something I&#39;d want to buy anytime soon...

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## slothming

> Now, if you spend a minute online checking around, you can find alternative devices that are similar to the ND but much cheaper...and probably cheaply made as well. Not something I&#39;d want to buy anytime soon...
> [/b]



I had a friend who bought RemDreamer(another version) that thing dont work properly--- though its not half that bad when you actually put it on and try sleep with it, but thats that.I dont know &#39;bout NovaDreamer ,still tempted to get one&#33; Some people actually find it useful   ::roll::

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## ~Erin~

> Yeah where can you get it now? Me wants one too  :yumdumdoodledum:
> [/b]




I personally have no idea. The only thing that comes to mind would be ebay.. yes ebay is always the answer  :tongue2: 

Seriously though, I don&#39;t think you can get it anywhere only if someone wants to sell it.

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## lucidbuddha

Hey all. Just wanted everyone to know that the update of the NovaDreamer is the DreamMaker. They are selling online for &#036;249.00&#33; The guy at Wellnesstools was working with Laberge on the device and something happened so now he basically has the entire market to himself. He&#39;s been working with others on this site and continues to make improvements. I just ordered mine today and if anyone is interested I can post updates on my success with the device. Happy Dreaming

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## Moonbeam

I&#39;d be interested in hearing what you think about it.

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## ~Erin~

> Hey all. Just wanted everyone to know that the update of the NovaDreamer is the DreamMaker. They are selling online for &#036;249.00&#33; The guy at Wellnesstools was working with Laberge on the device and something happened so now he basically has the entire market to himself. He&#39;s been working with others on this site and continues to make improvements. I just ordered mine today and if anyone is interested I can post updates on my success with the device. Happy Dreaming
> [/b]



yay&#33; than all is not lost  :tongue2: 

I would love to hear what you think about it , when it arrives. Let us know if it works&#33;

 I would love to own one , but I&#39;m still unceratin about the price   ::?:

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## Clairity

Since I own a NovaDreamer, I thought I&#39;d reply. 

I had seen one advertised in a magazine and didn&#39;t even know what lucid dreaming was.. but the mask intrigued me.

On a whim, I ordered it (I paid &#036;219.00 for mine back in 1998).  

Do I regret purchasing it.. not for a second&#33; I had my FIRST lucid dream the very first time I wore it. 

Not to say that will happen for everyone but it did start me on my journey.  Also a "NovaDreamer" does not guarantee success without EFFORT (I think I was just lucky in that my subconscious is very open to suggestion and I respond pretty well).   

You still have to do reality checks regarding noticing lights in your waking life so that you&#39;ll recognize lights in your dreams.  There are also lessons to do and practice.  There was also a book to read by LaBerge and a cassette tape that you listened to that helped you relax and get in the proper mindset while wearing the mask.

Let&#39;s not forget that you also have to adjust to sleeping with a mask (that does have a tiny bit of weight) on your face.  What made this a real challange for me was that I had always slept on my side.

Now my NovaDreamer also came with a FULL REFUND GUARANTEE if I decided to return it so I really had nothing to lose by getting it and so much to gain if it worked.  It&#39;s been 8+ years and it still functions :-)

I did stop seeing the cues after a couple of months (but by then I was able to LD on my own).  Was it an investment I personally would make again?.. yes, without hesitation.

I don&#39;t know anything about any masks other than the NovaDreamer that you may be thinking of buying but, if it was me, and I had the money to spare, I&#39;d go for it (cuz if I didn&#39;t, I&#39;d always wonder what would have happened if I had).

I did find the following websites that supposedly sell them (or an equivalent device).. but I haven&#39;t ordered from these companies so order at your own risk&#33;

http://www.remdreamer.com/

http://www.mind-gear.com/cat/novadrea.htm

http://lonezone.com/2000/catalog/6833.html

http://www.kirlian.org/lucidream.htm

P.S..  If you have seizures.. you probably should stay away or clear using such devices with your doctor.

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## slothming

Hey wait&#33; There were lots of controversies on the Ld4all forum, on a guy who ordered a DreamMaker from wellnesstool, they say that Bruce Gelerter was a scammer , maybe watch out?   ::shock::

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## lucidbuddha

yea, uh...if he&#39;s a scammer that would suck. I don&#39;t know how he would keep running wellnesstools though (but the site hasn&#39;t been updated in ages so....) We&#39;ll see I guess.

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## slothming

> yea, uh...if he&#39;s a scammer that would suck. I don&#39;t know how he would keep running wellnesstools though (but the site hasn&#39;t been updated in ages so....) We&#39;ll see I guess.
> [/b]



Alright > Ill count on you then&#33; If it all goes well I might get one too  :smiley:

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## lucidbuddha

&#036; has been taken out of my account....the wait begins  ::undecided::

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## lucidbuddha

It came it came&#33;&#33;  ::mail::  HAHA&#33;&#33; Whoohoo, UPS delivered, everything he said was going to be in it is there. Now for testing. If you are all interested, it arrived about 1 week after I ordered it. Keep checking for updates&#33;

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## Moonbeam

I&#39;ll be interested to see what happens.  Just got a Tools for Wellness catalog and I didn&#39;t see it in there.  I think there is one on e-bay, but not at a discount.  I think I&#39;ll start looking for one.

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## lucidbuddha

Ok so I had a few drinks last night, which doesn&#39;t really help LDing. But I woke up at 6am to use the bathroom and put the mask on before I laid back down. It was a bit awkward having it on my face but probably as comfortable as it was going to be. I shifted a few times and the lights flashed and they flashed once when I didn&#39;t shift at all, this might&#39;ve been some minor H.I. (I didn&#39;t have the timed wait setting on) After about 20 minutes I couldn&#39;t fall asleep and took the mask off. Once I did fall asleep without it on, I had some very long Ld&#39;s. So it kinda worked indirectly, I will be continuing tests, without drinking the night before.  :smiley:

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## nina

Yeah, that&#39;s alot of money for an uncomfortable device...just hire someone to shine little flashy lights in your eyes and disrupt your sleep hehe. Nah...I&#39;m kidding. I&#39;m actually really interested to see how it works out for you. How often do you usually LD?

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## lucidbuddha

Well before I found DV I was pretty random but I&#39;d say on average of 1LD for 2 weeks. But since I found this site I&#39;m lucid at least once a week I&#39;d say. I joined in October and have over 20 lds, about 5 per month.

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## dreammask

As probably the biggest expert on the DreamMaker here on Dream Views, I&#39;d say that the device is fine, but I wouldn&#39;t give Gelerter any money.  

I worked for him for a while and he just decided to stop paying me.  He currently owes me over &#036;1500 for work I already did for him.  I had to move out of my house, live out of an RV behind my parents&#39; house with my husband and quickly expanding pregnant belly, as I waited for him to let me know what was going on.  I have to sue him now because he still won&#39;t give me my money.  I actually did a lot of the work for him that has built his customer base up again (it was pretty bad after all ther reputation he had built for himself with the LD4All guy and a few others).  

Anyhow, I&#39;m going to be changing my screen name at some point to get away from it.  Just wanted people to know what I, who worked for Wellness Tools, thinks about Bruce Gelerter.

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## flight

I got a DreamMaker from wellness tools and my one didn&#39;t work correctly, going off at random all the time.
I tested it by putting it on a table just leaving it and the light would go off all by it&#39;s self. So sent it back.

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## Moonbeam

> As probably the biggest expert on the DreamMaker here on Dream Views, I&#39;d say that the device is fine, but I wouldn&#39;t give Gelerter any money.  
> [/b]



Wow it gets worse I see&#33;  Double damn that i orderded this yesterday&#33;

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## lucidbuddha

In my opinion I think this device is somewhat complicated and will work fine once it&#39;s tweaked. It seems to me that Bruce Gelerter is the problem, he&#39;s also had some problems with Laberge. I say with all the experts on LDing and microchip stuff on this forum, we can take over the LDID Sleep Mask market&#33;&#33; Obviously there are a lot of people interested. Gelerter doesn&#39;t even have staff I don&#39;t think. We already have people who&#39;ve worked there, know about dreaming and have used the device....TAKE OVER THE MARKET&#33;&#33; I don&#39;t know much about microchips and stuff but I can help with pubicity...  :smiley:

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## lucidbuddha

I put it on once this past weekend and at about 6am I woke up, not from the mask. I decided to take it off in order to get back to sleep, I think I was a bit cranky.  :Mad:

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## DrTechnical

I have owned a dreamaker for about 5 months. Here&#39;s my experience and a few tips:

1) The circuit board I received was based on the original Nova Dreamer design and worked
very poorly for me. It&#39;s detection algorithm is trying to sense very rapid eye movement.
There&#39;s another rev of the board that detects eye movement consistent with scanning
a dream view. I swapped the 1st board with the new model and it works very well. But that&#39;s
my experience.

2) You&#39;ll need to experiment with the brightness and Q settings some to determine a setting
that works for you. I have mine set at 1 o&#39;clock and 3 o&#39;clock respectively. Anything more tends
to wake me up.

3) I have only had the "lights" penetrate my dreams a few times. For me, they almost always
either wake me, or cause a false awakening. Use the reality test button or any other RT to
determine if you&#39;re still dreaming.

4) While I was first disappointed that I was having false awakenings and the same experience
over and over, I then realized it&#39;s a good experience to learn from. You get comfortable
with the experience and then can challenge youself to push the bounds of what&#39;s possible in your
dream world. For example, set a goal to determine you&#39;re still dreaming, get up and practice
some dream telekenesis with a pre-determined object. This allows you to gain confidence and
control in a comfortable environment.

5) The best strategy for me is to sleep 5-6 hours. Put on the dreamaker and try to doze. If I sleep and
dream it tends to detect about 50% of the time. At least half of those cases manifest themselves as
false awakenings. Even if I can&#39;t doze off, I&#39;ll take it off in an hour and try to have a DILD. This works
great too because your consciousness re-establishes itself and you&#39;ll tend to pick up on dream signs
better (basically wake back to bed - WBTB). With this combined strategy, I&#39;ll become lucid about 
1 out of every 2 attempts. If the dreamaker fails, the WBTB attempt gives me a second chance.

Enjoy.

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## Moonbeam

Well I got  my mask, tried it for the first time, got lucid and also had a very vivid night of dreaming with a couple FA&#39;s.  Did the lucid task.  Hope it keeps working.

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## lucidbuddha

So I&#39;ve decided to return the mask, because...

Cons
1. It&#39;s kinda expensive (249.99)
2. It didn&#39;t impress me
3. My main problem was falling asleep with the mask on, my girlfriend said the same thing.
4. Often triggered when I shifted positions

Pros
1. It works, lights up, tests fine etc.
2. I&#39;m sure if I got used to it and fine tuned the settings I would be able to use it successfully
3. Comes with a workbook and EWOLD
4. 30-day Money-Back guarantee  :smiley: 

So in conclusion, if you have the &#036; to spend take the time to test out this mask. You can order it from wellnesstools.com from Bruce Gelerter. Some say he&#39;s a scammer but I was treated fine. To test the mask only costs shipping and handling. See if it works for you. I do better on my own.  :smiley:  Sweet dreams.

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## bro

> yay&#33; than all is not lost 
> 
> I would love to hear what you think about it , when it arrives. Let us know if it works&#33;
> 
>  I would love to own one , but I&#39;m still unceratin about the price  
> [/b]



I bought the European version of Novadreamer, from Poland and England I beleive "Remdreamer" despite an uncertain reputation, and it seems to be working alright, very customizable. I&#39;ve had 1 lucid dream due to the lights, but it seems I&#39;ve woken up more due to the lights. I&#39;m still playing with the settings. It cost about 170 U.S
It really isnt that reliable on its own to give you lucid dreams, unless you pay attention to lights and  surrounings during the day. I try paying attention to lights I see RC&#39;ing and picturing myself back in the dream state (Including some dreams that I really should have realized I was dreaming).

Anyway have a look, here is their site: http://www.remdreamer.com/

It costs significantly, but it can be worth it hand in hand with a focus on lucidity, and  R.C&#39;s, (Kind of rambled there  :smiley: 

OOPS I POSTED IN WRONG WINDOW is there a way to move it?





> yay&#33; than all is not lost 
> 
> I would love to hear what you think about it , when it arrives. Let us know if it works&#33;
> 
>  I would love to own one , but I&#39;m still unceratin about the price  
> [/b]



I bought the European version of Novadreamer, from Poland and England I beleive "Remdreamer" despite an uncertain reputation, and it seems to be working alright, very customizable. I&#39;ve had 1 lucid dream due to the lights, but it seems I&#39;ve woken up more due to the lights. I&#39;m still playing with the settings. It cost about 170 U.S
It really isnt that reliable on its own to give you lucid dreams, unless you pay attention to lights and surrounings during the day. I try paying attention to lights I see RC&#39;ing and picturing myself back in the dream state (Including some dreams that I really should have realized I was dreaming).

Anyway have a look, here is their site: http://www.remdreamer.com/

It costs significantly, but it can be worth it hand in hand with a focus on lucidity, and R.C&#39;s, (Kind of rambled there smiley.gif

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## Moonbeam

> It really isnt that reliable on its own to give you lucid dreams, unless you pay attention to lights and  surrounings during the day. I try paying attention to lights I see RC&#39;ing and picturing myself back in the dream state (Including some dreams that I really should have realized I was dreaming).
> [/b]



Yea it is just a tool.  I think that can work if you practice RC&#39;s and keep in the right state of mind; it doesn&#39;t guarantee success.

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## Snowy Egypt

Does anyone know where I can get one? And how much does it cost?

(yes, I&#39;m clueless... :sweat1: )

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## Clairity

> Does anyone know where I can get one? And how much does it cost?
> 
> (yes, I&#39;m clueless... :sweat1: )[/b]



Read the earlier postings in this topic (see page two).  I did a posting on Jan 25 2007 which
should address your questions.

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## Snowy Egypt

OVER 200 BUCKS?&#33;?&#33;?&#33;  ::holyshit::  

Ahh, yes, I can see the sinario now...

Dad: Araina, what&#39;s this? It came in the mail today. It&#39;s for you.

Me: *reads the address* Oh, nothing&#33; *tries to hide package... and fails*

Dad: Let me see.

Me: Daddy, no...

Dad: Let me see, please.

Me: *sadly gives it to him* @[email protected] GIRL, you bought this for 200&#036;&#33;?&#33;?&#33; What is it?

Me: A sleep mask...*mumbles* forluciddreaming...

They&#39;d NEVER let me get anything else again until I was married and out of the house&#33;&#33;&#33;  ::damnit::

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## ViSions

I think it wouldn&#39;t be good to depend upon a device to have lucid dreams, wouldn&#39;t it be better to have them without any aids?

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## Moonbeam

> I think it wouldn&#39;t be good to depend upon a device to have lucid dreams, wouldn&#39;t it be better to have them without any aids?
> [/b]



The hope is that with practice, even if induced by a device, LD will get easier and then you can wean yourself from it.





> I think it wouldn&#39;t be good to depend upon a device to have lucid dreams, wouldn&#39;t it be better to have them without any aids?
> [/b]



The hope is that with practice, even if induced by a device, LD will get easier and then you can wean yourself from it.

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## dreammask

The product definitely improved during the time I worked for Wellness Tools.  If I were actually wanting one, and I weren&#39;t very upset about him owing me a few thousand dollars for unpaid wages, I&#39;d order one from another company other than Wellness Tools.  That way, Gelerter wouldn&#39;t get as much money and it would support companies who sell other lucid dreaming aids as well.  Better karma, in my opinion.  Last I checked, Elixa sold DreamMakers.

-Christina

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## thedreammask

This is Bruce Gelerter inventor of the DreamMaker ;0)

Ok - to clear the air and have a little fun, I will send out two DreamMakers for circulation to anyone who wants to do a review on the DreamMaker, anyone on the DreamViews Forum. 

Here is how it will work - whoever wants to give it a try respond here to this post. I will pick two people to send the DreamMakers to. Then they will send their "trial dreammaker" to the next person and so on. This is a great way for everyone to see where the technology is at and what they can expect. Then together we can make it better with your input. Now when someone here wants to have their own after the evaluation or anytime before I will send them a brand new one and charge just the wholesale pricing of &#036;150 with the same guarantees in place - how&#39;s that??

The DreamMaker is working really well and I want to get the word out without lynchmobs forming - please help&#33; 

If anyone has any questions about what happened to the Nova Dreamer or why it was discontinued just ask. I will tell you it started or rather ended with this video. http://www.wellnesstools.com/luciddr...dreammaker.htm
Thanks everyone I look forward to your reviews,
Bruce Gelerter - CEO
Wellness Tools
719-686-8999 Phone








> I am so tempted to by the NovaDreamer...i keep looking at it and reading about it, and the lucidity site brings you to a link where they sell it for 249 dollars 
> 
> what do u all think?
> 
> yay or nay
> [/b]

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## slimslowslider

Hi Bruce,

I would be delighted to review the DreamMaker.  I considered making my own, but couldn&#39;t figure a way to make a small enough movement detector&#33;  I&#39;m a natural LDer, but I&#39;ve always been intrigued by the device, and would love to know if it could help induce MORE&#33;&#33;&#33;  I teach architecture (mainly technical studies and workshop skills) in London, and run my own design practice.  My partner - Zhine - who is also on DV is very interested as well - she has a PhD in Physics and is a qualified Kinesiologist if that helps&#33;  We have both written and published technical articles, and papers.  I&#39;m also an amateur filmaker and we are shooting a documentary about LDing in the Summer - initially by visiting some of the traditional LD cultures, but will also look at modern Western approaches.  There&#39;s a little more in my profile, and my signature gives links to my posts on some of the issues that currently interest me with LDing.

P.S. I&#39;ve read and respect the comments above, but I&#39;ll make up my own mind about whether or not you need lynching&#33;

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## zhine

Hi,

Just confirming Slimslowslider&#39;s post that I&#39;m also interested in trying out the machine please? I&#39;ve been a natural LD-er all my life, but they&#39;re getting frustratingly far apart at the moment - only one a month for the past 3 months - so I&#39;m keen to look at ways to increase their frequency. As soon as I get lucid though, my control and recall is pretty good.

My background is in scientific research, but my focus is now in energy medicine, and I&#39;m currently testing out different LD induction techniques/props with muscle testing and personal experiment. I too have wanted to try out one of these for ages.

I&#39;m a bit concerned about the issues raised elsewhere in this thread and hope things get resolved, both for the individuals involved and for the sake of the atmosphere around the machine. I would, however, like to carry out my own mini experiments and provide an objective review of the device.

Zhine

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## thedreammask

OK, since you two are the first, that is zhine and Slimslowsliders you will get them first. Please email me your address and direct email contact. Remember whomever is next you will need to send it there agreed?
my email [email protected]
Let the testing begin&#33;&#33;&#33;
Bruce










> Hi,
> 
> Just confirming Slimslowslider&#39;s post that I&#39;m also interested in trying out the machine please? I&#39;ve been a natural LD-er all my life, but they&#39;re getting frustratingly far apart at the moment - only one a month for the past 3 months - so I&#39;m keen to look at ways to increase their frequency. As soon as I get lucid though, my control and recall is pretty good.
> 
> My background is in scientific research, but my focus is now in energy medicine, and I&#39;m currently testing out different LD induction techniques/props with muscle testing and personal experiment. I too have wanted to try out one of these for ages.
> 
> I&#39;m a bit concerned about the issues raised elsewhere in this thread and hope things get resolved, both for the individuals involved and for the sake of the atmosphere around the machine. I would, however, like to carry out my own mini experiments and provide an objective review of the device.
> 
> Zhine
> [/b]

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## slimslowslider

Great&#33;  
Will certainly post onwards...  after, say, a month of testing.

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## BohmaN

Whaooo really expensive =P... When can I expect it to break, after a few years?

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## Seeker

Hi Bruce, 

That sounds like a pretty generous offer and I hope all the DV members that try have success with your product.

I wish however that you had dropped me a PM regarding this before posting, we have rules about advertising, especially when someone joins and only makes posts about their products.  I&#39;ll let this one slide though.  How about placing a little blurb on your site discussing this free Dream Views trial offer and tracking the progress.  Sounds like it could be good advertising for both of us.

I&#39;d love to give your machine a go, only problem is, I absolutely cannot sleep with anything on my face...   :Sad:   I wish someone would create a totally touchless system.

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## ps2martin

Hello,

I would be very interested in reviewing this product indeed, so I&#39;d like to sign up for this aswell. I am from europe though (Netherlands), I hope that wont be a problem regarding the shipment etc. It would be great however to see if it works on Europian dreams as well  :wink2: 

I am lucid dreaming for well over a year now, with mixed succes. Although lately I have one lucid dream a week, I think there is still room for improofmend considering the following: I dont have stable dreamsigns. With that, I meen that there are no stable events that reacure in most of my dreams. And that is the reason why for a few weeks now I am looking for a LDID, since that provibes a stable dream sign every single time.

This trail would be perfect for me and I&#39;d be more than happy to share my experiences with your product, and if this product works for me than I will buy it.

Hope to hear from you,

Martin

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## Vortex

I can give you a review of the Dream Maker as I bought one 3 weeks ago.

Also I have plenty of experience with regard to lucid dreaming and lucidity aids. I designed and built my first dream machine over 20 years ago and I owned and used a Nova Dreamer for 15 years and I am presently working on the latest version of my own design.

I bought the Dream Maker from Relax-UK. 
The first thing that struck me about it on opening the package was the headband of the sleep mask is not adjustable.  I am of slight build with short cropped hair so it practically fell off me, so before I could try out the Dream Maker I had to tie a knot in the head band to try and adjust it so I could wear it, after that I found it easier to keep on than the Nova Dreamer mask and not as sweaty.
The second thing was that there is no way to adjust the sensitivity of the IR REM detector, and the controls are only accessible by removing the circuit board from the sleep mask, that includes turning it on and off.

On the first night I set the lights and beeper to max so that I could first be woken in a dream and to know that it was working, after 7 nights of sleeping with the mask I gave up because the REM detector is too insensitive to detect a genuine REM event. I contacted the supplier and told them of the problems I was having with the device.  They told me they could send me a &#39;widget&#39; that plugs into it that solves the REM detection problem or I could return it and get a refund - I took the refund.

Out of 10 I would give it 2  Could do with a lot of improvement.

Vortex.

----------


## thedreammask

Hello Vortex,

The mask you got from Relax-UK is an old design. Contact me and I will replace it for a new one.

The difference:
1) It has an adjustable headband now with the velcro arranged as to not snag hair - ouch
2) the DreamMaker has automatic gain adjustment - it changes sensitivity according to Background lighting - the more background light the Less sensitive it becomes so it doesn&#39;t false trigger If it&#39;s very dark the sensitivity (gain) goes to over 1 million in other words it can detect a cockaroach running across your kitchen floor&#33; In the dark&#33;
3) That widget comes with every dreammaker now It&#39;s called the REM Detect Kit. What I found over the past year and a half of making improvements is that everyones face has different geometry to it. So with the REM Detection Kit you can tell first of all within 5 minutes of taking it out of the box whether it&#39;s going to 
detect for you. Also it helps you to find the "sweet spot" for where you should align the mask before bed. Very important for accurate REM detection.

Here is review from another group called Saltcube just yesterday http://dailymantra.com/

It&#39;s a shame that you got an older unit, there were a number of upgrades since then.
Thanks,
Bruce Gelerter






> I can give you a review of the Dream Maker as I bought one 3 weeks ago.
> 
> Also I have plenty of experience with regard to lucid dreaming and lucidity aids. I designed and built my first dream machine over 20 years ago and I owned and used a Nova Dreamer for 15 years and I am presently working on the latest version of my own design.
> 
> I bought the Dream Maker from Relax-UK. 
> The first thing that struck me about it on opening the package was the headband of the sleep mask is not adjustable.  I am of slight build with short cropped hair so it practically fell off me, so before I could try out the Dream Maker I had to tie a knot in the head band to try and adjust it so I could wear it, after that I found it easier to keep on than the Nova Dreamer mask and not as sweaty.
> The second thing was that there is no way to adjust the sensitivity of the IR REM detector, and the controls are only accessible by removing the circuit board from the sleep mask, that includes turning it on and off.
> 
> On the first night I set the lights and beeper to max so that I could first be woken in a dream and to know that it was working, after 7 nights of sleeping with the mask I gave up because the REM detector is too insensitive to detect a genuine REM event. I contacted the supplier and told them of the problems I was having with the device.  They told me they could send me a &#39;widget&#39; that plugs into it that solves the REM detection problem or I could return it and get a refund - I took the refund.
> ...

----------


## thedreammask

Hi,
Sorry about that. I didn&#39;t consider it advertising even though I can see how it looks that way. I am just trying to clear up the many questions regarding devices such as this one as well as the DreamMaker itself. 
Thanks for your understanding and when I make the touchless Lucid Dreaming device you&#39;ll be the first to know 
Bruce






> Hi Bruce, 
> 
> That sounds like a pretty generous offer and I hope all the DV members that try have success with your product.
> 
> I wish however that you had dropped me a PM regarding this before posting, we have rules about advertising, especially when someone joins and only makes posts about their products.  I&#39;ll let this one slide though.  How about placing a little blurb on your site discussing this free Dream Views trial offer and tracking the progress.  Sounds like it could be good advertising for both of us.
> 
> I&#39;d love to give your machine a go, only problem is, I absolutely cannot sleep with anything on my face...    I wish someone would create a totally touchless system.
> [/b]

----------


## Vortex

> Hello Vortex,
> 
> The mask you got from Relax-UK is an old design. Contact me and I will replace it for a new one.
> 
> The difference:
> 1) It has an adjustable headband now with the velcro arranged as to not snag hair - ouch
> 2) the DreamMaker has automatic gain adjustment - it changes sensitivity according to Background lighting - the more background light the Less sensitive it becomes so it doesn&#39;t false trigger If it&#39;s very dark the sensitivity (gain) goes to over 1 million in other words it can detect a cockaroach running across your kitchen floor&#33; In the dark&#33;
> 3) That widget comes with every dreammaker now It&#39;s called the REM Detect Kit. What I found over the past year and a half of making improvements is that everyones face has different geometry to it. So with the REM Detection Kit you can tell first of all within 5 minutes of taking it out of the box whether it&#39;s going to 
> detect for you. Also it helps you to find the "sweet spot" for where you should align the mask before bed. Very important for accurate REM detection.
> ...



Hi Bruce, 
Thanks for the reply. It&#39;s a shame those old faulty units are still being sold to people.
I would be interested in trying one of the new model but I have returned the old one to Relax-UK and I am waiting for the refund.

Vortex.

----------


## thedreammask

I had asked Ruth at Relax UK to send them back to me awhile ago at a health show I did with her in London.
They shouldn&#39;t be sold.
Bruce







> Hi Bruce, 
> Thanks for the reply. It&#39;s a shame those old faulty units are still being sold to people.
> I would be interested in trying one of the new model but I have returned the old one to Relax-UK and I am waiting for the refund.
> 
> Vortex.
> [/b]




Let us know as things progress - you can&#39;t keep us waiting a whole month can you? ;0)
Bruce






> Great&#33;  
> Will certainly post onwards...  after, say, a month of testing.
> [/b]

----------


## Klace

Oh man, I&#39;d love to try this out, I am really considering buying one but have heard incredibly mixed reviews and results, if I could get one for myself to test, and it actually worked, Man would I be buying one for myself and every one of my friends  :tongue2: 

Oh, and you want a review in return for the trial?
Sweet, I would so do that.

I am a regular Lucid Dreamer, or have been for nearly three months, I have a few lucids a week, but with my DEILD technique I have been having alot more and so have other people.
I would be honored to test out the Dream Mask and write a review for you, that is if you can send out more devices or mark me down for the next cycle.  :tongue2: 
By the way I don&#39;t live anywhere exotic, just old Freezing Canada, so it wouldn&#39;t be a hard thing to get the Mask and send it onto another person.

----------


## DrTechnical

I had offered my experiences with the Dreamaker on the third page of this thread. I had one more
observation to offer. As stated in the instructions, at some point your brain will integrate the mask
into the dream in some sense.

When I wear the mask, I have the frequent experience of dreaming that I&#39;m wearing the mask but I can
basically see through it - which in reality is impossible. This becomes a very good dream sign to look
for as well.

Bottom line for me, is that if I wear the mask late in my sleep cycle, it detects roughly 50% of the time.
That coupled with the way it tends to influence my dreaming (as above), gives me a lot of opportunities
to pick up on.

Enjoy

----------


## iadr

> I&#39;d love to give your machine a go, only problem is, I absolutely cannot sleep with anything on my face...    I wish someone would create a totally touchless system.
> [/b]



I have a simlar problem to that Seeker.   Although I could get to sleep wearing the Nova dreamer, which I will have to add was a piece of crap as it wasn&#39;t even comfortable to wear, as the material scatched my face, it always ended up clear on the other side of the room in the morning, as I would rip it off during the night and throw it clear to the other side of the room.  A touchless system that I could not rip off in the middle of the night would be nice.

----------


## Vortex

I agree there iadr, I have hardley ever managed to keep a NovaDreamer on until morning, usually find it at the bottom of the bed. I did find the Dream Maker a lot easier to keep on though. 
I&#39;ve been putting a lot of thought into how to make a touchless system, so if anyone else is interested in working on it contact me. 
Also I have just worked out the circuit diagram for the novadreamer if anyone is interested in a copy.

Vortex.

----------


## Rassle Co

> I agree there iadr, I have hardley ever managed to keep a NovaDreamer on until morning, usually find it at the bottom of the bed. I did find the Dream Maker a lot easier to keep on though. 
> I&#39;ve been putting a lot of thought into how to make a touchless system, so if anyone else is interested in working on it contact me. 
> Also I have just worked out the circuit diagram for the novadreamer if anyone is interested in a copy.
> 
> Vortex.
> [/b]




Hi Vortex,

  This is Steve Pertubal, otherwise known as Rassle Co on these forums. I&#39;d like a copy of the Novadreamer circuit diagram.  [email protected]
 Thank you



Hey Bruce,

Concerning that DreamMaker I received in February (last month), was that a 2007 model and if so, why didn&#39;t I get the Detection Kit also?

... and still waiting on the DreamMaker Pro that you were going to let me preview.

Regards,
Rassle Co

----------


## Seeker

> I&#39;ve been putting a lot of thought into how to make a touchless system, so if anyone else is interested in working on it contact me. 
> [/b]



I was thinking something with a video camera and image recognition.  It would have to either recognize faces from a number of different positions, or perhaps the user could dab some florescent paint on his/her eyelids, use an IR source and night vision.  Tricky any way you go about it.

----------


## ps2martin

I think a completly touchless system will be very hard to make, or at least to make reliable. However, what I think would be nice is that you only have to carry a sensor and led&#39;s on your face, and that the further processing of the data is done in a sepperate box. That way there might be less volume and weight on your face.

----------


## tommo

sounds good to me&#33; I would buy it.

----------


## slimslowslider

Just to let folk know, I got the Dreammaker from Bruce (Zhine got hers too) - and started trying it out.  Will post the results in due course.  

I too am interested in developing a much lighter one.  I think the weight/ bulk issue can be solved by improving the original design.  However arranging for a light to randomly flash throughout the night is probaby effective - especially if you are on a budget&#33;


Does anyone know if dreams can be detected by brainwaves, heart beat etc?

I&#39;m not sure how useful REM detection is, especially when there seems to be something wrong with the theory of sleep cycles.  e.g. I had a long dream last night - woke and looked at my clock and it only read 40mins after I had gone to sleep.  I know this is normal for many people.  

Also presumably REM corresponds to what is going on in the dream?  I.e. your eyes are moving like crazy &#39;cause youre being attacked by zombies or you&#39;ve just seen Milla Jovovich/ Johnny Depp.  

What if you are dreaming about sewing or moon-gazing?  I&#39;m guessing in these cases there is barely detectable REM?

----------


## Vortex

Ah&#33; It&#39;s good to see some interest  :smiley: 

I seriously doubt there will ever be a totally touchless system, there&#39;s just to much stacked against it, but I think there are huge improvements we can make.
My main focus at the moment is experimenting with different REM detection methods to hopefully find something more reliable than InfraRed and less uncomfortable. The best looking alternative that I&#39;ve found so far is a Piezo system originally developed for the MIR space station - it&#39;s like a very small band aid with a wire attached that you stick on to your eyelid. 
Has anybody got any experience of REM detection through changes in breathing rate? From what I&#39;ve read it was one of the first systems used. 
Also I want to try out using a recording of my own voice through an ear piece, saying "Is this a dream?" as the cue - I&#39;ve just got hold of a wireless ear piece with inductive neck loop to try it out...

Vortex.

----------


## tommo

The, is it a dream audio thing works really well.
Maybe you could make like the little band aid thing you were talking about and then have wireless earphones with it that say are you dreaming? once it detects that you are in REM.  Because the only problem with the straight audio is that you get used to the level of the sound so you block it out sometimes, so when you dream you don&#39;t even hear it and sometimes it is too loud to get to sleep.  This would fix the problem.  ::D:  ::D:  plus it should be cheaper.

----------


## Vortex

Hi tommo,
Yes, I&#39;m talking specifically about playing the recording into the inner ears, solely as the cue triggered by a REM detector. If you were to simply sit a player on your bed side, randomly playing the recording, your brain would soon tune it out. 
Also remember if you use one ear piece, the sound is heard as coming from that side of your head, where as if you use both ear pieces, it appears to come from in the middle of your head. Now, what could be better - your own voice in the middle of your head saying "Is this a dream?" sure beats disco lights    ::?:  

Vortex.

----------


## ps2martin

But are you sure that you will actualy hear your exact mesage in your dream or will you just hear something and you have to decide in your dream wether or not that was your que, like with the disco lights?

----------


## tommo

Vortex I wasn&#39;t asking if this is what you meant, I just thought up the idea.  You basically said what I said in my post.

And ps2martin you would hear the exact message, its like when a song is playing, it gets incorporated into your dream.

----------


## iadr

> Does anyone know if dreams can be detected by brainwaves, heart beat etc?[/b]



Now that is a good question.  I&#39;ve seen wrist watches in the store that can be used to measure a persons blood pressure.  If the rem state could be detected by an increased heart beat, a lucid wrist watch could be developed that would do something when it detected a person was entering the rem state.

My own attempt at creating a touchless system, which was not successful, was to purchase several police beacon lights, and position them at various places in my room.  Then set them to go off at times during the night when I expected to be dreaming, using timers.  The problem I encountered was that I would either sleep right through the lights, which would go off for hours before waking me up, or else they would wake me up so abruptly that I would not even be able to remember my dreams.  The only benefit I seemed to derive from using the police beacon lights is that when I would sleep through the lights, I would sometimes have really vivid dreams, although the flashing lights never seemed to get into my dreams.

----------


## lucidbuddha

I don&#39;t mean to be raining on anyone&#39;s parade. I know trying the dreammask is exciting and everything but I have a concern. 

Bruce told me that if I returned the DreamMask within 30 days....if I didn&#39;t like it for any reason, then I would get a full refund (minus s/h) 

It has been 27 days since he e-mailed me saying "I&#39;ll get a check right out to you" *27 DAYS&#33;&#33;&#33;*  :Mad: 

I&#39;ve tried contacting him on DV and through E-mail and he hasn&#39;t responded in a week&#33; 

Bruce Gelerter has been said to be a scammer....if I don&#39;t get a check or reply soon, I&#39;ll stand by that comment&#33;

----------


## Nutzilla

I&#39;m working on a touchless system myself. I&#39;ve bought some cameras that work in almost total darkness and I&#39;m currently using neural networks to detect my eye movement while sleeping. My results are... well, not impressive so far, but I still have lots of ideas on how to improve the detection and I&#39;m positive it can be done. How do I know this? Because it&#39;s pretty easy for a human being to detect eye movement, I believe we can make a system with a very high detection rate as well. I&#39;m positive I can do it, actually, it&#39;s like trying to get a PC to recognize handwriting. Easy? No. Possible? Definitely.

As for other detection options, males have erections during R.E.M. sleep, so I guess a small elastic band that would change resistance when stretched... on second thought, let&#39;s not go there, we&#39;ll stick with the eyelids for now. :)

----------


## mtfuji

> Does anyone know if dreams can be detected by brainwaves, heart beat etc?[/b]



There is a motion based method that I think might be worth investigating. 

I&#39;ve got one of those sleep phase alarm clocks. At night I wear a wrist band concealing a small motion detector with wireless connection to a clock. It analyzes my motion data during sleep and wakes me up at a point when I sleep really light, according to the manual just before or after a REM period, and from my experience I have no reason to doubt that it works.

I would really like to investigate what can be done with this when it comes to LD induction devices, but I don&#39;t have the hardware skills to pull it off. Otherwise I would be ready to put some serious time into a project like this.

----------


## Vortex

Hi mtfuji,
I considered them but they are based on a complex algorithm (or that&#39;s what they say) so it would be difficult to change the system to trigger a cue during REM. If however the firmware is in the bedside clock, and it could be hacked - then it might be possible...

Vortex.

----------


## mtfuji

> If however the firmware is in the bedside clock, and it could be hacked - then it might be possible...[/b]



Yes, I thought of that, but I think it might be difficult to hack the firmware. I think one would have to set up one&#39;s own wireless receiver and connect it to a computer through USB or whatever. For a prototype, the existing wristband could probably be reused. 

About the algorithm, and that&#39;s what I&#39;m really curious about, I think it can be solved. I&#39;m not 100% certain, but I do things like this for a living, and I&#39;m ready to give it a shot.

Anyway, this is not a discussion about the Novadreamer so maybe it doesn&#39;t belong here...

----------


## tommo

I think this is perfectly fine to be in this thread, it&#39;s about alternatives to the novadreamer, or how to improve the novadreamer.  I&#39;m finding this very interesting and I may purchase something that could possibly be used to detect REM and use it to make me LD.  I have some ideas but I will write them all out later and explain them in this thread.

----------


## chong

I think vibration is a way to go .Ive been working with a vibration transducer hooked up to my computer alarm clock .Ive been trying tweak the settings to see how long it can go into my dream without waking me up .Its hit or miss because I got it set up to go off every 15min after 3:45 for about 10 seconds .So I dont know exactly when im in the rem cycle.

----------


## ps2martin

> Yes, I thought of that, but I think it might be difficult to hack the firmware. I think one would have to set up one&#39;s own wireless receiver and connect it to a computer through USB or whatever. For a prototype, the existing wristband could probably be reused. 
> 
> About the algorithm, and that&#39;s what I&#39;m really curious about, I think it can be solved. I&#39;m not 100% certain, but I do things like this for a living, and I&#39;m ready to give it a shot.
> 
> Anyway, this is not a discussion about the Novadreamer so maybe it doesn&#39;t belong here...[/b]



I dont know what the exact product is but by the discription you gave I think the following: why go through all the trouble of hacking a complex algorithem when some basic electric skills will enable you to go around it? You see, I am more of a hardware man rather then software.  :wink2: 

Here&#39;s how I would molest the thing to make it give ques: I&#39;d open the alarm clock, and disconnect the speaker of the mainboard and connect the mainboard to a lamp (perhaps through a relais) which would be hanging above my bed. Just as the alarm would go off, now the lamp will switch on. You could also make it flikker or what ever by using a stand alone systemboard before going to the lamp, the point is not to hack the existing system, but make it do the work for you&#33; 

Could you perhaps link us to the product you are talking about, I&#39;d like to try what I said if you agree with me that what I said is possible.

----------


## mtfuji

> I think vibration is a way to go .Ive been working with a vibration transducer hooked up to my computer alarm clock .Ive been trying tweak the settings to see how long it can go into my dream without waking me up .Its hit or miss because I got it set up to go off every 15min after 3:45 for about 10 seconds .So I dont know exactly when im in the rem cycle.[/b]



If vibration works well as a signal it would be nice because then a vibrator could be placed in the wristband along with the motion detector I was talking about. One could even wear it during waking hours and have it go off randomly for reality checks.

Please tell me about your results.

----------


## mtfuji

> I dont know what the exact product is but by the discription you gave I think the following: why go through all the trouble of hacking a complex algorithem when some basic electric skills will enable you to go around it? You see, I am more of a hardware man rather then software. 
> 
> Here&#39;s how I would molest the thing to make it give ques: I&#39;d open the alarm clock, and disconnect the speaker of the mainboard and connect the mainboard to a lamp (perhaps through a relais) which would be hanging above my bed. Just as the alarm would go off, now the lamp will switch on. You could also make it flikker or what ever by using a stand alone systemboard before going to the lamp, the point is not to hack the existing system, but make it do the work for you&#33; 
> 
> Could you perhaps link us to the product you are talking about, I&#39;d like to try what I said if you agree with me that what I said is possible.[/b]



That&#39;s an interesting idea. You still need to find a way to make it go off during REM sleep, instead of right before/after as the clock actually does. Here it is - I think there are alternatives, but this is the one I own: http://www.axbo.com/

----------


## Vortex

The original system was apparently called SleepSmart, I did a bit of research and found this quote:

_One known weakness of the current SleepSmart system is the lack of reliability in
heart rate monitoring due to changes in body position. In the current project, we
seek to improve this reliability by mounting in the bed or seat a novel, simple, low-
power and safe microwave-based sensor that our group has just invented._ 

So it&#39;s using heart rate which isn&#39;t an easy way to accurately detect REM even when you have good electrodes.

I dont know of any tests done on using vibration as a cue, the first type ever used was a mild electric shock to the hand and I guess there isn&#39;t a lot of difference.

Vortex.

----------


## chong

> If vibration works well as a signal it would be nice because then a vibrator could be placed in the wristband along with the motion detector I was talking about. One could even wear it during waking hours and have it go off randomly for reality checks.
> 
> Please tell me about your results.[/b]




If I can  catch a rem cycle it works ,either  I feel that im getting electrocuted or there is a earthquake I just have to test it more tweak the volume or the length of time. To much time it wakes me up not enough I sleep right through it. I have a rem dreamer and the lights are too bright for me its to startling for me. The vibration setting and the music through the transducer it gradually gets more intense and you can turn it up or down to your desire .I just which I could trigger the rem cycle with it more

----------


## mtfuji

> ...either  I feel that im getting electrocuted or there is a earthquake I just have to test it more tweak the volume or the length of time. To much time it wakes me up not enough I sleep right through it.[/b]



I would like to try that. How do I build/where do I buy one?

----------


## tommo

With that timer thing you would probably need to go to sleep at the same time and wake up at the same time everyday, because then you would have basically the EXACT times you go into REM.  That&#39;s the only problem with not having a sensor for detecting REM.

----------


## chong

> I would like to try that. How do I build/where do I buy one?[/b]




Hers  the link
http://www.biowaves.com/ecommerce/control/...46FF905596.jvm1  Also youâre going to need a plug in timer with about 12   settings and a lucid clock program that runs the music to the transducer. I use brain wave voyages astral   vibrations but you can use any type of music to have the same effect .I cant remember where I got the lucid clock I think I down loaded from a site for free its a good clock because you can control how long you want the vibrations to last for 1 second to and hour if like. You can pick up a cheap back vibrator or any kind of vibrator I know those transducer are a little expensive. But I couldnât find a timer that had one second intervals that means the vibration would stay on for a minute and that kept waking me up so I found that transducer that would shut off through the program in second intervals .I will post where I found the program later. I just started to do this I will post my results .

----------


## mtfuji

> Hers  the link[/b]



Thanks.

----------


## ps2martin

> That&#39;s an interesting idea. You still need to find a way to make it go off during REM sleep, instead of right before/after as the clock actually does. Here it is - I think there are alternatives, but this is the one I own: http://www.axbo.com/[/b]



Well if it gives a signal right before going into rem, that could be the signal to start a timer which after 5 min. for instance would make the lights flash; while your in rem.

This product is quite expencive, but I think cheap alternatives could be made to give dream ques using my idea. It would be the closesed thing to a touchless system so far I think.

----------


## mtfuji

I would like to experiment with building the device from scratch. Does anyone know where can I find a USB radio receiver that can listen to 2.4Ghz?

----------


## Rassle Co

> yay&#33; than all is not lost 
> 
> I would love to hear what you think about it , when it arrives. Let us know if it works&#33;
> 
>  I would love to own one , but I&#39;m still unceratin about the price  [/b]





Hello,

This is Steve, Rassle Co. I am probably one of the harshest critics of the DreamMaker, Bruce Gelerter and his company, Wellness Tools. This link will take you to my previous posts on this subject.

http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/index.php?...=Gelerter&#092;

Do your research, then if you still want a DreamMaker, Good Luck to you&#33;

Be aware that Bruce Gelerter is letting people try out the DreamMaker for free:

http://www.saltcube.com/out-of-body/chat-f...pic.jsp?t=20776

Regards,
Steve, Rassle Co

----------


## Vortex

Back on page 3 of this thread I wrote a review of the DreamMaker mask. 
This is my review of the REM Dreamer mask:

The REM Dreamer took a long time to arrive, it says 3-4 days for delivery on the website but took 14 days.
The first thing I noticed was that although the headband is adjustable it is still too big for me at the smallest adjustment. also the Velcro is of poor quality and doesn&#39;t give a very secure seal. Otherwise the quality of the mask material is good, it&#39;s made of cotton which is a lot nicer to wear than the nylon novadreamer mask.

The REM Dreamer has the same cue choices and possible adjustment as the novadreamer, but the controls are a nightmare&#33; They consists of a 4 lever jumper switch and single push button. I find it impossible to remember all the different number combinations necessary to set the various parameters,  so I have to keep re-reading the instruction manual. When you replace the batteries all your settings are lost and have to be reprogrammed in.

One of the best things on this device that I have not come across on any other, is a REM test mode, which uses the speaker to give Geiger counter like sounds as it detects the REM from your eyes.

The first night I set it to maximum sensitivity and was woken up repeatedly, which is a good sign as the other 2 makes have been too insensitive. After resetting the sensitivity to the recommended starting point I had 15 cues that night.

After a few nights use I am no longer noticing the cues, with the NovaDreamer or DreamMaker I was able to increase the brightness to where it hurt slightly, this got my attention but the LED&#39;s are not as bright on this so I cant do that.

Points out of 10, I would give it 5, works but could do with a lot easier controls and brighter LED&#39;s.

Vortex.

----------


## TalkingHead

I didn&#39;t read ALL of the posts, but I would first of all like to say that I&#39;ve spoken to Bruce Gerlerter a few times and he seems like a decent and competent guy.  Sometime in the future he is trying to come out with an add on to the dream mask that will electricly induce the brainwaves which make for LD&#39;s.
This is MUCH more effective than binaural beats and would again be triggered by REM sleep.

I have the dream mask, but my problem is that I can&#39;t get it to stay on&#33;  I even put a rubber band around it last night and still woke up with it off my head.  I&#39;m beginning to wonder if I&#39;m waking up and taking the mask off without ever becoming conscious.

Does anyone have any suggestions for attaching the maks better?  I even tried some women&#39;s headbands but they were not the right fit.

----------


## iadr

> I have the dream mask, but my problem is that I can&#39;t get it to stay on&#33;  I even put a rubber band around it last night and still woke up with it off my head.  I&#39;m beginning to wonder if I&#39;m waking up and taking the mask off without ever becoming conscious.
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions for attaching the maks better?  I even tried some women&#39;s headbands but they were not the right fit.[/b]



Not being able to get a dream mask to stay on is a common problem TalkingHead, and it is caused by a person waking up half asleep and ripping the mask off while they are still half asleep.  I did it all the time, and threw it clear across the room.  That&#39;s probably why mine doesn&#39;t work anymore.  

It would be nice if someone could invent something like a wrist watch that would buzz when a person goes into rem sleep, that a person could attach on their arm and not be able to rip off.  I&#39;ve tried waking up while wearing a vibrating wrist watch I have and it is a very pleasant way to wake up.  The main problem though is that vibrating wrist watches only vibrate for 20 seconds, which is not quite long enough to always wake a person up if they are a sound sleeper.

The only thing I would suggest is to try using lower settings so that it doesn&#39;t wake you up to the point where you are so disgusted with the lights flashing in your eyes that you rip the mask off in your sleep, and just hope that with the lower settings the lights will get into your dreams and cause you to become lucid.

----------


## Vortex

Well, I&#39;ve now given up on the REM Dreamer, It tells me I had 25 cues last night on maximum brightness - I dont recall any of them.   ::roll::  
I think the NovaDreamer was the best of the bunch, unfortunately mine is broken and it&#39;s discontinued, but Lucidity.com say they have a new model NovaDreamer coming out... 
_"We expect the new model NovaDreamer to be released later this year (possibly late Summer or Fall?). As soon as it&#39;s available, we&#39;ll be announcing it in our newsletter LUCIDITY*FLASHES and on our website, so stay tuned&#33;"_

I&#39;m sure I heard that somewhere 6 months ago...

Anyone got a NovaDreamer for sale?   ::wink::  

Vortex.

----------


## iadr

> Well, I&#39;ve now given up on the REM Dreamer, It tells me I had 25 cues last night on maximum brightness - I dont recall any of them.   
> I think the NovaDreamer was the best of the bunch, unfortunately mine is broken and it&#39;s discontinued, but Lucidity.com say they have a new model NovaDreamer coming out... 
> _"We expect the new model NovaDreamer to be released later this year (possibly late Summer or Fall?). As soon as it&#39;s available, we&#39;ll be announcing it in our newsletter LUCIDITY*FLASHES and on our website, so stay tuned&#33;"_
> Vortex.[/b]



Thanks for the update Vortex.  I am beginning to think that things like this dream mask probably work better if just used after a person has already had a certain amount of sleep.  

I&#39;ve encountered the same lack of success with my attempts at using a touchless system when I use it right after going to bed, as I think the mind gets conditioned to the lights if used too early in the sleep cycle, and then just ignores them the rest of the night.  

After building a nice shelf at the foot of my bed where I set up a couple of strobe lights and a police beacon light on a timer to go off 2 hours after I went to bed, I not only failed to wake up from the lights going off all over my room until 3 1/2 hours later, but then did not remember my dreams when I did wake up.  

When I&#39;ve had these lights setup to go off later in my sleep cycle though, they normally wake me up right away, after which I can often just lay there and go back to sleep, and have 2 or 3 really vivid dreams in a matter of minutes before waking up again.

----------


## dreammask

Of course Bruce Gelerter sounds like a nice enough guy.  Why else would people buy his product, get duped into giving him money, get into poor business partnerships with him, work for him when he won&#39;t pay them, etc?  

Speaking of which, I finally had my court date with Mr. Gelerter, suing him for the wages he owed me for all the work I did for him, and he never even showed up.  Good for me, I suppose, but it just continues to show what kind of person he is.  Now I have to go through the collections process, since he won&#39;t be paying me, of course.  The guy doesn&#39;t even pay taxes... why should anyone think he&#39;s honest in any other way.  He never sent me any of the forms for me to file my taxes, which turned out to be a hassle when I went to pay because I had to figure everything out myself and I had no paperwork to go with my files.  

I also talked with another person who was working with him recently and wasn&#39;t being paid for the work he was doing.  His products are built upon lies and cheating people.  I wouldn&#39;t trust him for anything.  

Like I said before, however... the product is fine, in my opinion, and if you want one, I think you should get one from a company other than Bruce&#39;s (Wellness Tools).  Bruce still makes money from retailers, obviously, but my bitter side says he shouldn&#39;t get as much as he does when you buy one straight from him.

-Christina

----------


## Rassle Co

> Of course Bruce Gelerter sounds like a nice enough guy.  Why else would people buy his product, get duped into giving him money, get into poor business partnerships with him, work for him when he won&#39;t pay them, etc?  
> 
> Speaking of which, I finally had my court date with Mr. Gelerter, suing him for the wages he owed me for all the work I did for him, and he never even showed up.  Good for me, I suppose, but it just continues to show what kind of person he is.  Now I have to go through the collections process, since he won&#39;t be paying me, of course.  The guy doesn&#39;t even pay taxes... why should anyone think he&#39;s honest in any other way.  He never sent me any of the forms for me to file my taxes, which turned out to be a hassle when I went to pay because I had to figure everything out myself and I had no paperwork to go with my files.  
> 
> I also talked with another person who was working with him recently and wasn&#39;t being paid for the work he was doing.  His products are built upon lies and cheating people.  I wouldn&#39;t trust him for anything.  
> 
> Like I said before, however... the product is fine, in my opinion, and if you want one, I think you should get one from a company other than Bruce&#39;s (Wellness Tools).  Bruce still makes money from retailers, obviously, but my bitter side says he shouldn&#39;t get as much as he does when you buy one straight from him.
> 
> -Christina[/b]




Well Christina, If I didn&#39;t see it coming, I could almost feel sorry for you.
Since you set up all those new marketing strategies for Bruce Gelerter, you could easily undo them and make things harder for him (if your bitterness becomes overwhelming)
Oh, and since you won the judgement, you can probably put a lien on his house and business, then he won&#39;t be able to sell without paying you first. 

The DreamMaker still doesn&#39;t work at all for me and I don&#39;t think Bruce is going to live up to his promise to let me preview the DreamMaker PRO but hey, I got my money back and I got a new 2006 DreamMaker BASIC to boot. 
I think I have you to thank for that.

I still consider it my moral obligation to warn everyone about Bruce Gelerter.

Just my two cents.
Steve,  Rassle Co

----------


## dreammask

> Well Christina, If I didn&#39;t see it coming, I could almost feel sorry for you.
> Since you set up all those new marketing strategies for Bruce Gelerter, you could easily undo them and make things harder for him (if your bitterness becomes overwhelming)
> Oh, and since you won the judgement, you can probably put a lien on his house and business, then he won&#39;t be able to sell without paying you first. 
> 
> The DreamMaker still doesn&#39;t work at all for me and I don&#39;t think Bruce is going to live up to his promise to let me preview the DreamMaker PRO but hey, I got my money back and I got a new 2006 DreamMaker BASIC to boot. 
> I think I have you to thank for that.
> 
> I still consider it my moral obligation to warn everyone about Bruce Gelerter.
> 
> ...



This is where I tell you that you were completely right about him and that I&#39;m sorry I didn&#39;t see it sooner.  Of course, you of all people would be the one to say, "I told you so."  What&#39;s so annoying is that he really does come across as a nice guy who just didn&#39;t have the brains to figure out what he was doing wrong.  It makes him easier to trust at first.  Even with all the crap he did a few years ago, not sending people their masks after they paid him and such, it&#39;s amazing that he still comes across as trustworthy.  He really is an artiste in that he has gotten away with so much and is still in business, still getting people&#39;s money and really screwing some of them.

And actually, I can&#39;t really "undo" the marketing and such I did for him.  That would probably be a bit illegal, I&#39;d guess.  I can tell people what he&#39;s done, however, and follow your lead.  I don&#39;t want the stress associated with being obsessed with him, which is the only reason I&#39;m not doing more than I am here.

I can put a lien on his house and such though, which I&#39;ll be doing.

Yeah, you can pretty much say you have me to thank for your new DreamMaker and such.  I&#39;m selling the one he gave me on Ebay right now.  ^_^  I was trying to re-write the manual, so the one I have is a mess (but probably easier to read nonetheless).  Too bad he didn&#39;t want to pay me.  I could have done a lot of good stuff for him.

Anyhow, good luck getting a test-drive of the Pro.  He really is close to finished with it, and it seems like it&#39;ll be just as awesome as he says, for the most part.  I&#39;m not sure what he&#39;s promising at this point.  I haven&#39;t been keeping tabs on the product.  I have better things to do than steam over how much money he&#39;s making.

Good luck with your warning people of him.  Feel free to add my story onto your list of reasons for people not to trust him.  

-Christina

----------


## lucidbuddha

Just thought I&#39;d add my two cents....

I increased conversation on this forum when I contacted Bruce and tested the DreamMask. After deciding it wasn&#39;t for me I took him up on his 30-day moneyback guarantee which had no contingencies....if I didn&#39;t like it for ANY reason I could return it, so I did. 

It&#39;s been almost 2 months since I returned the mask and over a dozen e-mails and after zero replies I recieved one about 2 weeks ago which read something like "I&#39;m sorry, I&#39;ve been out of town, I&#39;ll fix this as soon as possible"

Still nothing....that&#39;s &#036;250.00 for test-driving a sleepmask&#33; 

Hey Bruce.....I&#39;m still waiting

----------


## thedreammask

> This is where I tell you that you were completely right about him and that I&#39;m sorry I didn&#39;t see it sooner.  Of course, you of all people would be the one to say, "I told you so."  What&#39;s so annoying is that he really does come across as a nice guy who just didn&#39;t have the brains to figure out what he was doing wrong.  It makes him easier to trust at first.  Even with all the crap he did a few years ago, not sending people their masks after they paid him and such, it&#39;s amazing that he still comes across as trustworthy.  He really is an artiste in that he has gotten away with so much and is still in business, still getting people&#39;s money and really screwing some of them.
> 
> And actually, I can&#39;t really "undo" the marketing and such I did for him.  That would probably be a bit illegal, I&#39;d guess.  I can tell people what he&#39;s done, however, and follow your lead.  I don&#39;t want the stress associated with being obsessed with him, which is the only reason I&#39;m not doing more than I am here.
> 
> I can put a lien on his house and such though, which I&#39;ll be doing.
> 
> Yeah, you can pretty much say you have me to thank for your new DreamMaker and such.  I&#39;m selling the one he gave me on Ebay right now.  ^_^  I was trying to re-write the manual, so the one I have is a mess (but probably easier to read nonetheless).  Too bad he didn&#39;t want to pay me.  I could have done a lot of good stuff for him.
> 
> Anyhow, good luck getting a test-drive of the Pro.  He really is close to finished with it, and it seems like it&#39;ll be just as awesome as he says, for the most part.  I&#39;m not sure what he&#39;s promising at this point.  I haven&#39;t been keeping tabs on the product.  I have better things to do than steam over how much money he&#39;s making.
> ...



OK - Christina, you know you shouldn&#39;t be discussing this kind of business here, but here we go.

1) You were _Fired_ from Wellness Tools because of the following reasons as you know
      a) You were not in the office but hanging out in coffee shops
      b) You were giving out your work to your friends to do as I have found from looking at the office computer emails
      c) You got your judgement because I&#39;m filing a counter suite for you sharing proprietary information with 3rd  
          parties and stealing company property - you should have turned that in or mailed it back - NOT put it on Ebay
2) Any money you receive from selling company property (stealing) will be deducted from whatever settlement is finalized

3) Also I&#39;m formally requesting that you stop using the "dreammask" login here and start your own account

I can&#39;t believe you&#39;re so smug with your little smiley face when telling everyone that you stole it and are selling it on Ebay - unbelievable&#33; Should I be happy about you going to jail for stealing company property? I wouldn&#39;t be and I did like working with you until I found out about your behavior.
Thank You,
Bruce Gelerter

----------


## thedreammask

> Just thought I&#39;d add my two cents....
> 
> I increased conversation on this forum when I contacted Bruce and tested the DreamMask. After deciding it wasn&#39;t for me I took him up on his 30-day moneyback guarantee which had no contingencies....if I didn&#39;t like it for ANY reason I could return it, so I did. 
> 
> It&#39;s been almost 2 months since I returned the mask and over a dozen e-mails and after zero replies I recieved one about 2 weeks ago which read something like "I&#39;m sorry, I&#39;ve been out of town, I&#39;ll fix this as soon as possible"
> 
> Still nothing....that&#39;s &#036;250.00 for test-driving a sleepmask&#33; 
> 
> Hey Bruce.....I&#39;m still waiting[/b]



Hi lucidbuddha,
I will make sure you are refunded - let me check on it. If it hasn&#39;t gone out I will get it out today - no worries.
thanks,
Bruce

----------


## thedreammask

> Of course Bruce Gelerter sounds like a nice enough guy.  Why else would people buy his product, get duped into giving him money, get into poor business partnerships with him, work for him when he won&#39;t pay them, etc?  
> 
> Speaking of which, I finally had my court date with Mr. Gelerter, suing him for the wages he owed me for all the work I did for him, and he never even showed up.  Good for me, I suppose, but it just continues to show what kind of person he is.  Now I have to go through the collections process, since he won&#39;t be paying me, of course.  The guy doesn&#39;t even pay taxes... why should anyone think he&#39;s honest in any other way.  He never sent me any of the forms for me to file my taxes, which turned out to be a hassle when I went to pay because I had to figure everything out myself and I had no paperwork to go with my files.  
> 
> I also talked with another person who was working with him recently and wasn&#39;t being paid for the work he was doing.  His products are built upon lies and cheating people.  I wouldn&#39;t trust him for anything.  
> 
> Like I said before, however... the product is fine, in my opinion, and if you want one, I think you should get one from a company other than Bruce&#39;s (Wellness Tools).  Bruce still makes money from retailers, obviously, but my bitter side says he shouldn&#39;t get as much as he does when you buy one straight from him.
> 
> -Christina[/b]



Yes there are 2 sides to every story - see my response below.
Cristina was fired from Wellness Tools for unethical business practices and stealing company property as she so proudly proclaims.
Bruce Gelerter

----------


## thedreammask

> Well Christina, If I didn&#39;t see it coming, I could almost feel sorry for you.
> Since you set up all those new marketing strategies for Bruce Gelerter, you could easily undo them and make things harder for him (if your bitterness becomes overwhelming)
> Oh, and since you won the judgement, you can probably put a lien on his house and business, then he won&#39;t be able to sell without paying you first. 
> 
> The DreamMaker still doesn&#39;t work at all for me and I don&#39;t think Bruce is going to live up to his promise to let me preview the DreamMaker PRO but hey, I got my money back and I got a new 2006 DreamMaker BASIC to boot. 
> I think I have you to thank for that.
> 
> I still consider it my moral obligation to warn everyone about Bruce Gelerter.
> 
> ...



OK - Rassle, I&#39;ve really had enough of your bashing. You said on the telephone a year ago when I wouldn&#39;t give you the schematics for my DreamMaker and I quote "Reverse Engineer it and ruin your reputation, then come out with my own" - did you not say this to me? And now even though I said if you stop I will not bring the litigation we spoke about, you are still at it. I tried being nice in giving you a full refund and a brand new mask but I guess that&#39;s not good enough - Huh? Then you have the nerve to say you are reviewing the Pro? Why would I ever let YOU review anything when you want to steal it and create lies about it?????? Face it you are just a jealous crazy person making  false claims about me and then try to pump up your own importance - It&#39;s just NUTS&#33;

This is why I&#39;m allowing the others from this group decide what&#39;s good or not. If it&#39;s decided that the DreamMaker is not working well for some reason let&#39;s discuss it and I will make the changes so it does work well for most people - this is all I&#39;m trying to do. 

So for everyone here if you want the truth about what&#39;s happening with the DreamMaker or Wellness Tools just ask me - I&#39;m around - BUT take whatever Rassle has to say with a grain of salt. He doesn&#39;t represent yours or mine best interest only his own.

If your just not sure the investment into the Dream Mask is worth it for you - just send me an email and you can try it yourself for free - what more can I do??? Sorry for all this but i do need to defend myself.
Thank You,
Bruce Gelerter

----------


## lucidbuddha

Hey Bruce,

If you&#39;re legit then that means you follow up on your policies....like the satisfaction guaranteed or your money back right??? I&#39;m still waiting on my refund. I sent the mask back almost 2 months ago&#33; Please contact me, I&#39;ve sent several e-mails, I&#39;m sure you&#39;re aware.

----------


## tommo

kinda ironic that your username is still dreammask lol  ::D: 

Is this guy good looking or something?  Since your a girl you could have fallen for that. so I was just wondering.  no offense to you or anything like that.
Also I can understand the bit how you said 



> What&#39;s so annoying is that he really does come across as a nice guy who just didn&#39;t have the brains to figure out what he was doing wrong[/b]



besides the sudden switch from present to past tense in that sentence lol, I can understand.  Last year and late 2005 I watched as my mum was fooled by this &#39;landscaper&#39; who was putting these tiles all across our backyard and putting a little waterfall into our pool and some other things.  Turns out, he wasn&#39;t a landscaper at all.  But the way that he was so nice (so my mum says) and said he didnt have the right amount of people to get it done really quickly (ended up taking him about 6-7 months&#33;~) my mum felt sorry for him.
I believe this would be sort of the same thing, no?

----------


## iadr

> OK, since you two are the first, that is zhine and Slimslowsliders you will get them first. Please email me your address and direct email contact. Remember whomever is next you will need to send it there agreed?
> my email [email protected]
> Let the testing begin&#33;&#33;&#33;
> Bruce[/b]



So...slimslowslider and zhine.  How&#39;s the testing going?  

I saw in an earlier post that you received your dreammask to test on March 20th slimslider.  Did you ever receive yours zhine?

It&#39;s been over a month now.  Any results?  

Has it worked?  Has it not worked?  

Don&#39;t be afraid to tell us if it hasn&#39;t worked for you.  Dream masks don&#39;t work for everyone.  That&#39;s why Bruce is letting us test this, to see if it does work, or if it needs something else done to improve it.

Do you have any suggestions on how it could be improved?

----------


## thedreammask

> Hey Bruce,
> 
> If you&#39;re legit then that means you follow up on your policies....like the satisfaction guaranteed or your money back right??? I&#39;m still waiting on my refund. I sent the mask back almost 2 months ago&#33; Please contact me, I&#39;ve sent several e-mails, I&#39;m sure you&#39;re aware.[/b]



Yes - lucidbuddha I need to know your real name to check on it. You can send me a private email if you want.
Thanks,
Bruce

----------


## thedreammask

> kinda ironic that your username is still dreammask lol 
> 
> Is this guy good looking or something?  Since your a girl you could have fallen for that. so I was just wondering.  no offense to you or anything like that.
> Also I can understand the bit how you said 
> besides the sudden switch from present to past tense in that sentence lol, I can understand.  Last year and late 2005 I watched as my mum was fooled by this &#39;landscaper&#39; who was putting these tiles all across our backyard and putting a little waterfall into our pool and some other things.  Turns out, he wasn&#39;t a landscaper at all.  But the way that he was so nice (so my mum says) and said he didnt have the right amount of people to get it done really quickly (ended up taking him about 6-7 months&#33;~) my mum felt sorry for him.
> I believe this would be sort of the same thing, no?[/b]



Oh Yes - I&#39;m very goodlooking it gets me by. Hey what was that landscaping company that gives me an idea ;0)
Bruce

----------


## Rassle Co

> OK - Rassle, I&#39;ve really had enough of your bashing. You said on the telephone a year ago when I wouldn&#39;t give you the schematics for my DreamMaker and I quote "Reverse Engineer it and ruin your reputation, then come out with my own" - did you not say this to me? And now even though I said if you stop I will not bring the litigation we spoke about, you are still at it. I tried being nice in giving you a full refund and a brand new mask but I guess that&#39;s not good enough - Huh? Then you have the nerve to say you are reviewing the Pro? Why would I ever let YOU review anything when you want to steal it and create lies about it?????? Face it you are just a jealous crazy person making  false claims about me and then try to pump up your own importance - It&#39;s just NUTS&#33;
> 
> This is why I&#39;m allowing the others from this group decide what&#39;s good or not. If it&#39;s decided that the DreamMaker is not working well for some reason let&#39;s discuss it and I will make the changes so it does work well for most people - this is all I&#39;m trying to do. 
> 
> So for everyone here if you want the truth about what&#39;s happening with the DreamMaker or Wellness Tools just ask me - I&#39;m around - BUT take whatever Rassle has to say with a grain of salt. He doesn&#39;t represent yours or mine best interest only his own.
> 
> If your just not sure the investment into the Dream Mask is worth it for you - just send me an email and you can try it yourself for free - what more can I do??? Sorry for all this but i do need to defend myself.
> Thank You,
> Bruce Gelerter[/b]




Bruce, Bruce, Bruce,

 I really have no need to "bash" anyone. After all, I have my money back and a new 2006 model DreamMaker, but it will take a lot more than that to "buy my silence". Yes, I got ripped off and I got mad and I started an Internet war against you, Bruce. The sad fact is, many people will get ripped off by you and silently keep it to themselves. That&#39;s probably what you would like.

Bruce, why are you always asking people for new ideas? Get yourself a copy of the "NOVADREAMER" operating manual and start there. Ensure your Basic DreamMaker model can function as well, if not better than the NovaDreamer. Only then, can you even begin to discuss new features and improvements for your Pro model.

For the group; If your best interest is not to get ripped off, then you should examine your DreamMaker buying experience from all vantage points and carefully make your decision. Do a Google search for "Bruce Gelerter", "DreamMaker", "Novadreamer" and "WellnessTools"and see what other customers have to say. Remember, where there is smoke, there is probably fire and for every one person that complains, there are hundreds (thousands?)  that kick themselves and keep quiet.

As I have alluded to in my first post back in 2005, I consider it my moral obligation to warn everyone I can about Bruce Gelerter, the DreamMaker and WellnessTools.

For the record, I have never talked to Bruce Gelerter on the phone, but I do have a nice collection of emails.

Good Luck,
Steve,  Rassle Co

----------


## tommo

Can I get soemthing straight? The novamdreamer is not made by bruce or his company right?
If so I may buy one.
Also I just wanted to add that although he seems friendly enough to send you a free trial, this is probably just a cheaper way to get answers on how to fix it while making himself seem generous at the same time.

----------


## dreammask

> OK - Christina, you know you shouldn&#39;t be discussing this kind of business here, but here we go.
> 
> 1) You were _Fired_ from Wellness Tools because of the following reasons as you know
>       a) You were not in the office but hanging out in coffee shops
>       b) You were giving out your work to your friends to do as I have found from looking at the office computer emails
>       c) You got your judgement because I&#39;m filing a counter suite for you sharing proprietary information with 3rd  
>           parties and stealing company property - you should have turned that in or mailed it back - NOT put it on Ebay
> 2) Any money you receive from selling company property (stealing) will be deducted from whatever settlement is finalized
> 
> ...



I suggest that you discuss the laws regarding slander before you say any more about me, considering you are already lying in an effort to dirty my reputation.  I also suggest you have your lawyer contact me before you press charges, in an effort to save you some time and money.  

Make sure you mention to your lawyer that I have copies of the emails, from me, saying I will not work another minute for you without pay, and your responses on how unreasonable you thought I was being.  As for the other things you mention, I&#39;m sure I would have to discuss further with you to figure out what you&#39;re even talking about, which is something I don&#39;t care to do.  We can do that with lawyers and such, although posting information on a public forum concerning our not-yet-existing case is fine by me.  I have nothing to hide, and I don&#39;t lie about your actions, which you are doing about me.  

I won my settlement because you owed me money for work and because you did not show up for the court date.  You can ask your lawyer about that too.

All I&#39;ve ever wanted from you was for you to pay me for the hours I have worked and the commissions I earned from sales I made for you.  You chose not to pay me.  You chose this path.  If you had paid me, I would probably still be working for you now.

-Christina Rochette

----------


## Rassle Co

Christina,

  I&#39;m sorry that I have been less than chivalrious towards you. You strike me as being a trusting, caring person and very, very loyal. I&#39;m sorry that you had to find out about Bruce the hard way. Best Wishes and Good Luck to you and your new family&#33;

Bruce, you should be ashamed of the way you treat your employees, especially one who was a very good worker and very pregnant. One can only wonder how you would treat customers halfway around the world and be able to sleep at night. Well, maybe not.

Regards,
Steve, Rassle Co

----------


## dreammask

> Christina,
> 
>   I&#39;m sorry that I have been less than chivalrious towards you. You strike me as being a trusting, caring person and very, very loyal. I&#39;m sorry that you had to find out about Bruce the hard way. Best Wishes and Good Luck to you and your new family&#33;
> 
> Bruce, you should be ashamed of the way you treat your employees, especially one who was a very good worker and very pregnant. One can only wonder how you would treat customers halfway around the world and be able to sleep at night. Well, maybe not.
> 
> Regards,
> Steve, Rassle Co[/b]



Thank you, Steve.  I appreciate the sentiment.  I&#39;m also sorry Bruce isn&#39;t going to be following up with you on his agreement and letting you test the DM Pro as he said he would.  That&#39;s a bummer for you and him, as I think you&#39;re a good resource for anyone trying to make LD masks.  

For the purposes of not running this thread too rampant, I suggest we try to refrain from continuing conversation about the issues between Bruce and I.  We can always start a new thread, for one thing, and unless our case has anything MORE to do with this thread, it&#39;s probably best to keep it aside.  I think my issues were relevant for anyone interested in sending him money, but now it&#39;s getting a bit off-topic.  

Someone had asked... the Nova Dreamer is NOT made by Wellness Tools / Bruce Gelerter, but by the Lucidity Institute.  They stopped making it a long time ago and have talked about making a new one, but it hasn&#39;t happened and I haven&#39;t seen any news of work being done to make it happen.

-Christina

----------


## tommo

> Someone had asked... the Nova Dreamer is NOT made by Wellness Tools / Bruce Gelerter, but by the Lucidity Institute. They stopped making it a long time ago and have talked about making a new one, but it hasn&#39;t happened and I haven&#39;t seen any news of work being done to make it happen.[/b]



Oh, damn....  Well, guess I&#39;ll have to keep trying naturally to have more.  However, I think that you should consider making a dreammask yourself  ::D:   You have the knowledge right?

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## Vortex

Hi tommo,
The NovaDreamer people say they are launching a new much improved version later in the autumn.
If you dont want to wait and pay their high prices then there is always the &#39;REM Dreamer&#39; approx. &#036;170 
see my review farther back in this thread or Google "rem dreamer".

Vortex.

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## tommo

thanx vortex

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## Vortex

No problem tommo.

I&#39;ve solved the dim lights issue on the REM Dreamer with a simple mod.
There are 2 low value resistors in line with the LED&#39;s, who&#39;s job is to prevent them from burning out,
As the LED&#39;s only flash briefly and occasionally, this isn&#39;t a danger, by bypassing them the brightness of the LED&#39;s is approx. the same as on the novedreamer. I tried it out last night and got my first successful que from it.

Vortex.

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## dreammaker

> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rassle Co @ Apr 27 2007, 10:31 PM) [snapback]458532[/snapback]</div>
> 
> Thank you, Steve.  I appreciate the sentiment.  I'm also sorry Bruce isn't going to be following up with you on his agreement and letting you test the DM Pro as he said he would.  
> -Christina



Edit

That's a bummer for you and him, as I think You could probably copy that too!???

But Steve, don't misunderstand me, I still think you're a jerk and should really get a life of your own instead of following Bruce around. Have you reverse engineered the DreamMaker yet? Maybe we can both sell what you have?
Since I got fired I could use some income.

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## slimslowslider

> So...slimslowslider and zhine. How's the testing going? 
> 
> I saw in an earlier post that you received your dreammask to test on March 20th slimslider. Did you ever receive yours zhine?
> 
> It's been over a month now. Any results? 
> 
> Has it worked? Has it not worked? 
> 
> Don't be afraid to tell us if it hasn't worked for you. Dream masks don't work for everyone. That's why Bruce is letting us test this, to see if it does work, or if it needs something else done to improve it.
> ...



Yes Zhine got hers but she's been very ill.  She's still keen to test it however.

I am sending mine on to BohmaN.

I got the cues a few times, but basically couldn't wear the mask.  It was too uncomfortable - tried various adjustments - still no joy.  Part of the problem is that the orientation/position of the sensor is critical, and if the mask slips more than a few mm, it stops working.  So the mask has to be fairly tight.

The whole thing would be improved with less bulk and the board separated into two halves, or bent/ curved to fit the face.  The foam piece could in theory be trimmed to improve the fit.  I tried to make a new foam pad after taking a cast of my face at work, but it didn't help much because the circuit board is rigid, and the sensor still need locating positively.  Silicone might be a better material for the mask itself - sweaty but acceptable if it was comfortable - like the anti-snore masks.

Otherwise, the controls are too fiddly for me to use - especially half-asleep, or in the dark.  A few times I thought I'd turned it off, but hadn't and the batteries drained overnight.

If someone can get around the comfort thing - I can see the potential.

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## iadr

> I am sending mine on to BohmaN.
> 
> I got the cues a few times, but basically couldn't wear the mask. It was too uncomfortable - tried various adjustments - still no joy. Part of the problem is that the orientation/position of the sensor is critical, and if the mask slips more than a few mm, it stops working. So the mask has to be fairly tight.
> 
> The whole thing would be improved with less bulk and the board separated into two halves, or bent/ curved to fit the face. The foam piece could in theory be trimmed to improve the fit. I tried to make a new foam pad after taking a cast of my face at work, but it didn't help much because the circuit board is rigid, and the sensor still need locating positively. Silicone might be a better material for the mask itself - sweaty but acceptable if it was comfortable - like the anti-snore masks.
> 
> Otherwise, the controls are too fiddly for me to use - especially half-asleep, or in the dark. A few times I thought I'd turned it off, but hadn't and the batteries drained overnight.
> 
> If someone can get around the comfort thing - I can see the potential.



Thanks for the feedback slimslowslider. Your suggestions should help in improving the design of the mask. 

Don't be concerned that it didn't work. I have a feeling that it probably doesn't work for more people than it actually works for.

One thing is for sure. It is not some kind of magical mask that someone can just wear to bed and expect to become lucid from.

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## dreammaker

> Yes Zhine got hers but she's been very ill.  She's still keen to test it however.
> 
> I am sending mine on to BohmaN.
> 
> I got the cues a few times, but basically couldn't wear the mask.  It was too uncomfortable - tried various adjustments - still no joy.  Part of the problem is that the orientation/position of the sensor is critical, and if the mask slips more than a few mm, it stops working.  So the mask has to be fairly tight.
> 
> The whole thing would be improved with less bulk and the board separated into two halves, or bent/ curved to fit the face.  The foam piece could in theory be trimmed to improve the fit.  I tried to make a new foam pad after taking a cast of my face at work, but it didn't help much because the circuit board is rigid, and the sensor still need locating positively.  Silicone might be a better material for the mask itself - sweaty but acceptable if it was comfortable - like the anti-snore masks.
> 
> Otherwise, the controls are too fiddly for me to use - especially half-asleep, or in the dark.  A few times I thought I'd turned it off, but hadn't and the batteries drained overnight.
> ...



 Hi slimslowslider,
Thanks for the feedback. When designing the mask I thought to myself "What would be the best material for contacting the face for comfort and in keeping light out and not have allergic reactions" So I did research on the Net to find out what is one of the most popular sleepmasks on the market? What i found was called the Mindfold sleepmask - you can see it here http://www.mindfold.com/

So I made an arrangement with the owner of Mindfold to purchase the foam pieces which are very expensive as they come from the cosmetics industry where it's noted for softness and breathability and is non-allergic. I just didn't like the hard plastic front piece that the foam attached to in the Mindfold. I decided to make the rest of the mask from silk material. 

I did try the flexable Pcb thing and when you flex it the soldered parts on the PCB would just POP OFF. These were made by professional contract manufacturing firms and they still pop off.

What I'm considering now is getting the pcb down in size to 1 or 2 square inches (right now it's about 3 x 3 or 9 sq inches) and have it run by a custom microprocessor whereby there will be no controls in the mask. It would come with a mini-program you run on your PC and once you have your settings for the night configured you upload it with a mini-usb to the mask and your ready to go. This will work well for the Pro as well where the mask can have 1gig of memory to store a dream sequence that you can download from the net or you can record your own mp3 audio file to play into your dream. Also, you will have all the REM tracking results stored in the mask for viewing on your PC.

As far as the REM detect sensors - most or actually all infrared transmitters/receivers available on the market at a distance of say 3/4 to 1 inch from the device will create a spot of about 1/2 inch. This is the distance in the DreamMaker. This is the area that is looking for REM detection or movement. SO, yes if you roll around alot the mask could possibly get moved out of alignment. But this is where it gets tricky, if the mask was made to be tighter to prevent movement then it starts getting uncomfortable. One thing I've been told works is using a body pillow and wrapping it around you so you don't roll around too much.

But the Mask...what to do?? The only other configuration i can think of is something that would resemble swim goggles. Really the only thing I really like about them is that it will stay securely on your face, but it would probably be very uncomfortable.

Any thoughts??
Bruce Gelerter

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## slimslowslider

Ahh, so you didn't get my email? I'll try to dig it out of my sent folder.

Well, thanks for the opportunity to trial the dreammaker!  :smiley:  

The two main things are comfort and REM detection (obviously) - and they are closely linked.  The 1/2" thing seems a generous estimate - it was VERY fiddly to get any detection at all - and Zhine has found it even harder.  From comparing the two masks we have, it looks like the sensors are glued-in at slightly different angles - so perhaps theres a QC issue there?  But it DID work - and I guess with a few tweaks, and an extra sensor, that should be fine.  Then its comfort.  If the whole thing is less bulky it should all stay more easily in place despite rolling around.  As I mentioned above I would consider silcone - not sure - it would obviously be more sweaty - but its the material used in antisnore masks etc - so must be OK.  I think I could put up with some sweat more easily than pressure (it was particularly bad around my nose/ sinuses no matter how I positioned it)  Separating the batteries and main board from the from the sensor/leds would be good (which IMO should be mounted on a bent board or two boards held at angles by the mask).  I would also appoach locating the sensors manually in such a way that the mask can be put on comfortably and firmly, and then the sensor(s) adjusted with screws that move it in two or more dimensions, kind of like you would adjust a scope?  Two sensors would double the chances, no?  Might add a few bucks but hey... if it helps work I'm sure it would be worth it - and the sensing is a critical function.  THe only other thing was the buttons - but thats easy to fix.

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## der'morat'oneiro

All the ND really does in theory is provide a "reliable" dreamsign. Only it ain't that reliable! It does not guarantee that the dreamsign will be recognized or even incorporated into your dreams. It almost never has been in my case. I have owned a couple of them. Of course, you could have better luck, but if you are not good at becoming lucid by recognizing dreamsigns in general, I doubt the ND will be of much use. I'd save my money.

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## Vortex

> Hi slimslowslider,
> Thanks for the feedback. When designing the mask I thought to myself "What would be the best material for contacting the face for comfort and in keeping light out and not have allergic reactions" So I did research on the Net to find out what is one of the most popular sleepmasks on the market? What i found was called the Mindfold sleepmask - you can see it here http://www.mindfold.com/
> 
> So I made an arrangement with the owner of Mindfold to purchase the foam pieces which are very expensive as they come from the cosmetics industry where it's noted for softness and breathability and is non-allergic. I just didn't like the hard plastic front piece that the foam attached to in the Mindfold. I decided to make the rest of the mask from silk material. 
> 
> I did try the flexable Pcb thing and when you flex it the soldered parts on the PCB would just POP OFF. These were made by professional contract manufacturing firms and they still pop off.
> 
> What I'm considering now is getting the pcb down in size to 1 or 2 square inches (right now it's about 3 x 3 or 9 sq inches) and have it run by a custom microprocessor whereby there will be no controls in the mask. It would come with a mini-program you run on your PC and once you have your settings for the night configured you upload it with a mini-usb to the mask and your ready to go. This will work well for the Pro as well where the mask can have 1gig of memory to store a dream sequence that you can download from the net or you can record your own mp3 audio file to play into your dream. Also, you will have all the REM tracking results stored in the mask for viewing on your PC.
> 
> ...



Hi Bruce,
I have tried them all and found your mask the most comfortable. It takes a while but you do get used to sleeping with them on. 
The Lucidity Institute managed to get the flexible circuit boards working 15 years ago, but as you say if it can be made small enough they're not necessary. Forget swim goggles I tried that myself 16 years ago, If they are tight enough to stay on they cause pressure bruises around the eyes, and you end up looking like a zombie ::shock:: 
 When you say about the mp3, is that to record an auditory cue? That would be great, make sure to include an earphone socket, then I can use my Sleep Ear Phones to get it right inside my head. Let us know when its ready.  :smiley: 

Vortex.

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## Klace

Woah this topic got long since the last time I read it.
Still waiting for my opportunity to test out the Dream Mask Bruce.
Nice to hear all this info about the Dream Mask as I was clueless when I first read up about it.  :tongue2:

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## urdreamboy

I ordered the Dream Maker the other day, even paid $50 for next day air. Didn't get it yet. Is this guy a scam or what???

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## urdreamboy

Nevermind... Just got it in the mail today!

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## luciddan

Hi.

I have a Novadreamer (original) for sale - with the course in Lucid Dreaming.

Any one interested?

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## Enlightenment

> Hi.
> 
> I have a Novadreamer (original) for sale - with the course in Lucid Dreaming.
> 
> Any one interested?



Thread necromancer lol  ::D:

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## TIMEVALU

I have one, bought it from ebay, paid about that much, probably 2-3 years ago. Tried it a few times, no luck yet. I'm not giving up but so far nothing to cheer about.

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## Mayatara

I never considered spending money on those devices, because I always thought that for them to work, you still need to train your mind and program it to respond to the stimulus, so why bother if you can apply same amount of effort in training your mind to recall dreams, to become lucid, etc, naturally. If we get hooked on this external helpers for having LDs, our brain gets lazy. 
I used to meditate listening to Holosync and i-Music and I used to have tons of LDs, SPs and OBEs, but then if I didn't listen to it for a while, I would have none, zero, zilch LDs! So I made the brave decision to go on without any devices or external help whatsoever. 
In the beginning it sucked, because I was weeks without a single LD and dream recall was sh*ty, but after a year I had an LD each week and another year later I had one almost every night and was recalling 5-10 dreams every day.
So, even if I risk sounding fundamentalist on this, I suggest not to spend money on those devices or on being hooked to any external help. Just program your mind for waking up several times at night and fry your brains in the effort to try to recall any dream whatsoever. In time it will pay off.

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