# Off-Topic Discussion > The Lounge > Tech Talk >  >  Vista sucks -- Article

## Sornaensis

http://blogs.pcworld.com/tipsandtwea...es/005783.html

Ooh, lookie, lookie!





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D I S C U S S
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## Replicon

You are about to left click. Accept or deny. 

You are about to click on "Accept"... accept or deny?

Damn you, recursion bugs!!!!111eleventyone

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## R.D.735

My brother bought a new computer a few months ago with Vista on it. Unbelievably, the OS got stuck on a never-ending loop. It would boot up, encounter an error, and automatically shut down, ad infinitum.

He switched to Linux.

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## Sornaensis

> You are about to left click. Accept or deny. 
> 
> You are about to click on "Accept"... accept or deny?
> 
> Damn you, recursion bugs!!!!111eleventyone



 ::rolllaugh::  ::rolllaugh::

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## Michael

> My brother bought a new computer a few months ago with Vista on it. Unbelievably, the OS got stuck on a never-ending loop. It would boot up, encounter an error, and automatically shut down, ad infinitum.
> 
> He switched to Linux.



That crap happened to me too. I hate Vista.

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## Ynot

Vista has many problems,
and not all of them are fixable

Ignoring the whole DRM issue (I feel I've said enough about that in the past)

A lot of the problems stem from the whole "Windows philosophy" that's so ingrained in both the MS developers and 3rd party software writers

Windows has always been a consumer desktop OS
(yes, the windows server versions exist - but seriously, come on - it's a desktop OS)

problem is, for the last 3-5 years, desktop machines and servers have been slowly merging

Desktop machines are becoming little mini servers
and *nix is *far* more capable than windows in these situations

how many people used more than one CPU in a desktop machine 5 years ago - no one
but clock speeds have near flat-lined
We've reached the peak of current CPU speeds
so parallel processing is now on the desktop

The whole philosophy of windows has been to load the newest version with big, enticing features. The early adopters complain its slow, but the main bulk of sales come from new, faster systems with windows pre-installed

This doesn't work anymore, as CPU speeds are not increasing, and Windows (and the vast majority of 3rd party software) are not efficient at parallel processing.

You probably wouldn't notice any speed difference between a single core 3Gz CPU and a quad-core 3Gz CPU
The code frameworks for efficient parallel processing are just not available for the majority of windows developers to utilize

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## ninja9578

True, Windows it not designed for servers, but I believe that *nix still dominates the server world.

MS (Linux developers too  :tongue2: ) have to learn to harness the power of those multiple cores, it's not quite as simple as splitting up the threads because then there are concurrency issues.  When running an OS specifically designed for multiple cores you can really see a speed difference.

Theoretical speeds have been nearly reached, as has the minimum size of silicon chips.  They can't just keep piling on more and more cores, something big has to change soon.

The next ten year in computer science is going to be interesting.  I think changes of the magnitude that we will see will drop Microsoft because of their business strategy.

They are entirely reliant on other companies to create hardware, and those companies are reliant on MS to give them the OS.  This cycle makes evolution slow and big jumps all but impossible.  I think in the very near future we will see the rise of another company that creates hardware and software.  Someone's going to have a brilliant idea and use it.

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## Replicon

Quick question: Does Vista's activation policy look exactly like XP's? Luckily, I have only one XP PC at home, but I remember feeling insulted that if I'm gonna lay down like $300 for an OS, I can't even install it on ALL of my fxcking PC's at home. If MS had somehow figured out how to enforce this back in the windows 3.1 days, they would not be in business today.

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## ninja9578

I think they have a family pack that can be installed on 5 computers.

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## Replicon

That's good to hear, assuming it's no more than $20 more (total) for the 4 extra licenses. Demanding? hell ya!

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## Ynot

> That's good to hear, assuming it's no more than $20 more (total) for the 4 extra licenses. Demanding? hell ya!



Vista Business (single license) = &#163;82.48
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx...11168,49030000

Vista Business (3 license multi-pack) =                  &#163;247.34
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx...11168,49030000

The multi-pack saves you a massive 10 pence.....

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## Grod

Ok... I hope these vista bashers have USED vista. I love it. There there is one main issue that I have with vista that is the lack of compatibility with older software, especially games. I agree with people here on that. But in every other way, vista beats XP. I can't think of one way that XP is better than vista. Everything I did with XP is simpler and easier with Vista. And that video is wrong. How did they come up with no anti-virus software? I have AVG and McAfee. I have never gotten a virus on vista. I really can't agree that it "sucks".

I have had arguments with vista haters before and surprise, surprise, they have never used it. They were all  jealous. I hope no one here falls into that category.

Just for the record, I work with Macs, and they are good in their own way as well,  so don't call me a windows fanboy.

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## Sornaensis

> Ok... I hope these vista bashers have USED vista. I love it. There there is one main issue that I have with vista that is the lack of compatibility with older software, especially games. I agree with people here on that. But in every other way, vista beats XP. I can't think of one way that XP is better than vista. Everything I did with XP is simpler and easier with Vista. And that video is wrong. How did they come up with no anti-virus software? I have AVG and McAfee. I have never gotten a virus on vista. I really can't agree that it "sucks".
> 
> I have had arguments with vista haters before and surprise, surprise, they have never used it. They were all  jealous. I hope no one here falls into that category.
> 
> Just for the record, I work with Macs, and they are good in their own way as well,  so don't call me a windows fanboy.



I *used* to use vista. I hated it. I use XP & Ubuntu now.

Why would i be jealous of a an overpriced box of slow-down-your-computer, and many-security-holes.

My parents use vista, and they hate it, too. They aren't even computer people!

std::

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## Moonbeam

> My parents use vista, and they hate it, too. They aren't even computer people!



I can't do a darn thing with my new computer.  I can't save a document or make bookmarks.  It's terrible.  I wish I hadn't bought a new computer.  The only thing I can do is get on the internet.  Windows sucks but Vista really really sucks.

Not a computer person obviously.

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## Grod

> I hated it.
> 
> Why would i be jealous of a an overpriced box of slow-down-your-computer, and many-security-holes.



 Slow down your computer... My vista machine works very well with 2 gigs of ram. Many Security holes? like what? Please educate me on this. You know,you CAN use other anti-virus stuff than windows defender. I think it's good of microsoft to include a free shield.





> My parents use vista, and they hate it, too. They aren't even computer people!
> 
> std::



I bought vista for my dad for his birthday, and he likes it _way_ more than XP. I don't see why your parents would hate it. If they're not computer people, then they probably wouldn't play games. I then see no reason why they would dislike it because games are the only beef I have with vista. Vista surpasses XP in every other way besides game compatibility.

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## Sornaensis

> Slow down your computer... My vista machine works very well with 2 gigs of ram.* Many Security holes? like what? Please educate me on this. You know,you CAN use other anti-virus stuff than windows defender. I think it's good of microsoft to include a free shield.*



I have 2 points to make here:

1.) My ubuntu box (laptop) is completely full. There is NO hard-drive space left (Well, maybe 10 kb), it has 256mb ram, and multi tasks 100&#37; better than my XP and 2342e times better than vista.

2.) Windows defender doesn't catch anything. (I am not lying) it is one of the worst anti-virus and Security shield programs i have EVER seen/used. Period. When i boot with Ubuntu, i don't have any kind of anti virus. I don't need it, because it's extremely hard for someone to phish with an .exe on a *nix system. 

_"Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really, really crappy Operating Systems" ~ Linus Torvalds_

Oh, and it is also recognized that Microsoft is falling apart under it's own weight.

Even a dude who has written Book on Visual Basic, and DirectX can see this: linky





> It seems that the larger an organization becomes, the less it is able to coordinate it’s activities and falls under the ”left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing” syndrome. This is certainly the case with Microsoft in recent years. The world’s largest software company seems to be teetering under it’s own massive weight, unable to create working software without massive piles of bugs–along with leaves, dirt, rodent droppings, twigs, and rusty scrap metal.
> 
> Okay, I messed up the analogy, but I’m trying to be reasonable when I really just want to call up someone at Microsoft and scream at them for five minutes. But if I were to do that, some poor fellow with a funky accent in New Delhi will have to visit his or her Hindu temple at the end of the day to expunge all of the negativity I bestowed upon them, since I’ll never get to actually speak with anyone at Microsoft.
> 
> So what’s the problem–what’s with all the honking? I’m exasperated with Microsoft’s software. I’m experiencing stress headaches and hypertension because the hassles of modern software development just won’t let up. Everywhere I turn, it’s another service pack or security update or release candidate or beta test. When software is actually released (let the marketing goons go on the offensive!) does it work out of the box? Occasionally. Sometimes. As long as you don’t allow Windows Update to actually run, then download some new service pack or patch or band-aid or splint, and install it on your hapless PC, thus rendering it only forward compatible from that day hence with most of your existing software.
> 
> Microsoft is, in day-to-day operation, behaving like a schizophrenic with ADHD–experiencing conversations with imagined people, while getting on their nerves with hyperactivity, all the while completely ignoring the real world. That’s Microsoft in a nutshell trying to keep 50,000 programmers and other members of the peonic elite busy on a daily basis. All of that momentum, keeping the ship moving, without remembering the destination…
> 
> I remember a time when Microsoft created good software. It was a longggg time ago, back in the dark ages for most young people, but a lot of those in my generation who recall the early days of the PC industry will recall a day when quality was more important than quantity because software companies at that time operated on a different premise: Not that 50,000 programmers must be kept busy churning out garbage year after year, but that a few dozen or a few hundred programmers worked hard on a software package either to unleash it on the PC industry for the first time, or to update a beloved application with user-requested features and productivity improvements. Today, Microsoft is so monstrously off it’s rocker it’s own software development teams are not even communicating needs to each other and ensuring that software packages are designed to work together.
> ...



std::

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## Mes Tarrant

My suitemate got Vista on a laptop with the minimum required 2 GB of ram. At first she was quite excited by all the neat little graphics and whatnot... but it has been painfully slow and needless to say she is no longer impressed.

Rasenganxxchidori, you are getting quite defensive about this system which is proven to be very faulty - my guess is it's just because you had to shell out a bunch of cash for it.

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## arby

People don't seem to understand how little pretty graphics for vista fits into the equation. Pretty graphics are available on all new operating systems and Vista has the worst of the 3.

Vista vs. Ubuntu + Beryl

leopard

both run on just about as much RAM as Vista with Aero disabled. They also multi-task better because of the unix system and all that fun stuff.

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## Sornaensis

> People don't seem to understand how little pretty graphics for vista fits into the equation. Pretty graphics are available on all new operating systems and Vista has the worst of the 3.
> 
> Vista vs. Ubuntu + Beryl
> 
> leopard
> 
> both run on just about as much RAM as Vista with Aero disabled. They also multi-task better because of the unix system and all that fun stuff.



 :boogie: , yup, yup.

std::

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## skysaw

I can tell you that for someone with my needs, Vista is a bad choice; It is very well known that it is not a solid choice for those building a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation), as I recently did. There is plenty of documentation and anectdotal evidence to support this. 

I'm pretty much tied to XP for now, having thousands of dollars worth of software and libraries on my machine. I don't mind it so much, as it is running ok, but I do have a problem with MS in general. 

The problem is that they assume they know exactly what the user needs, and what the user needs to know. The first time I tried to turn off auto-first line capitalization in MS Word, I almost started throwing things. Why is it on by default? Why is the method of turning it off so buried and difficult to find? Just one of many, many examples, where MS thinks they know better than the end user.

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## Mes Tarrant

> Why is it on by default?



I can understand that though.. most users would want that as default.  ::?:  I didn't know it was so difficult to turn off though.. hmmm.. I've never actually tried. Is it on the new Word version? Let me know cuz I have a very close friend who is directly responsible for MS Word.

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## arby

> I can understand that though.. most users would want that as default.  I didn't know it was so difficult to turn off though.. hmmm.. I've never actually tried. Is it on the new Word version? Let me know cuz I have a very close friend who is directly responsible for MS Word.



hurt them...

J/K.. XD

but did it take anyone else a couple hours to locate the print button in that piece of junk that claims its software??

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## Sornaensis

> hurt them...
> 
> J/K.. XD
> 
> but did it take anyone else a couple hours to locate the print button in that piece of junk that claims its software??



Uh, no. It's on the standard toolbar. With the icon... Of a printer :-\

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## Ynot

Ribbon - the Marmite of menus

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## Mes Tarrant

The ribbon is extremely anti-intuitive.  :Sad:  I really like onenote, and the next edition is supposed to have the ribbon on it as well. It will be a sad day.

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## Grod

> I have 2 points to make here:
> 
> 1.) My ubuntu box (laptop) is completely full. There is NO hard-drive space left (Well, maybe 10 kb), it has 256mb ram, and multi tasks 100&#37; better than my XP and 2342e times better than vista.
> 
> 2.) Windows defender doesn't catch anything. (I am not lying) it is one of the worst anti-virus and Security shield programs i have EVER seen/used. Period. When i boot with Ubuntu, i don't have any kind of anti virus. I don't need it, because it's extremely hard for someone to phish with an .exe on a *nix system. 
> 
> _"Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really, really crappy Operating Systems" ~ Linus Torvalds_
> 
> Oh, and it is also recognized that Microsoft is falling apart under it's own weight.
> ...




Alright... 
1. You show me some proof and I will agree. I use Mac's to work, and their OSX 10 is just as  effecient at multitasking as vista. I wouldn't consider using anything besides Mac or Windows for a number of reasons.

2. Ok, it may be, but what were you expecting from some crapware to come free? It may have a buy version, and I'd consider that robbery, but for me it came free, and it sounds like it did for you too. There are many free virus protection software out there, and some of them are quite good. Try AVG free. I use it to quickly scan things. It doesn't have as many tools or options as McAfee, for example, but it's free.







> The problem is that they assume they know exactly what the user needs, and what the user needs to know. The first time I tried to turn off auto-first line capitalization in MS Word, I almost started throwing things. Why is it on by default? Why is the method of turning it off so buried and difficult to find? Just one of many, many examples, where MS thinks they know better than the end user.



This is kind of a weak solution, but if you just wanted to do one change, just click right before the letter and delete the letter and then re-type it. Um... I don't see why it wouldn't be on default. I have never tried to take it off, but I have office 2007 and it's very easy to remove there.





> My suitemate got Vista on a laptop with the minimum required 2 GB of ram. At first she was quite excited by all the neat little graphics and whatnot... but it has been painfully slow and needless to say she is no longer impressed.
> 
> Rasenganxxchidori, you are getting quite defensive about this system which is proven to be very faulty - my guess is it's just because you had to shell out a bunch of cash for it.



*Mes Tarrant* -- ... I don't really think I'm getting defensive. As I said, I use Mac's to work, so I don't only use windows. I didn't spend _any_ money on it. I got a new laptop a few months ago, and I made the free upgrade to vista premenium. I'm very happy I did. I don't know how I would have continued to use XP. 

Please someone, give some solid evidence why it is faulty. I have never encountered any bugs, besides compatibility with games.

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## arby

> Uh, no. It's on the standard toolbar. With the icon... Of a printer :-\



I'm talking about word 2007.



See that un-marked button at the upper left that looks like its just supposed to be there so it can be pretty? You have to click that to get to print in the new and improved word.

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## Ynot

> You show me some proof



what sort of proof are you looking for?

*Vendor Decisions based on Public Reaction*

Dell bending the rules of their OEM partnership with MS to continue to sell XP as an option?

MS extending XP's life-time by 6 months to curb the public's backlash?

MS "allowing" other OEM's to follow Dell's lead, and offer XP as an alternative?

XP Service Pack 3 released, featuring backported Vista functionality?

The fact that now, over a year since Vista's release, a mere 21 games utilise DirectX 10?


*Damning Reviews and Criticism from Trade Press*

Dutch Consumers Union asks for free copies of XP for Vista victims

Why Microsoft must abandon Vista to save itself

Vista Prevents Users From Playing High-Def Content

Businesses having second thoughts about Vista

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## Sornaensis

@Your name is hard to spell:

Did you read that article? That guy is EXACTLY right.

I don't know EXACTLY why, but i just know that when i use ubuntu, i get more performance on less hardware than Vista on my high-tech box.

I'll give you two good reasons why *nix is better than windows:

1.) Backwards compatibility

2.) Good multi-tasking-able kernel





> I'm talking about word 2007.
> 
> 
> 
> See that un-marked button at the upper left that looks like its just supposed to be there so it can be pretty? You have to click that to get to print in the new and improved word.



lmao!

std::

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## Grod

> what sort of proof are you looking for?
> 
> *Vendor Decisions based on Public Reaction*
> 
> Dell bending the rules of their OEM partnership with MS to continue to sell XP as an option?
> 
> MS extending XP's life-time by 6 months to curb the public's backlash?
> 
> MS "allowing" other OEM's to follow Dell's lead, and offer XP as an alternative?
> ...



Took a while to read all those articles. Whew!


I said vista isn't very good for playing games yet. But steadily, more and more games are coming under the "games for windows" banner, and I'm looking forward to seeing more games utilize DX10.  "Games for Windows" I don't think hasn't been out for very long.

About link 4... Upgrading is costly. That is a big factor. And more people said, in the article _you_ referenced, that vista is more secure than XP. As I said before, Defender is only an option. It is very possible to use other means of protecting yourself. I notice a main concern in your articles is compatibility. I said vista is not very compatible. Many third party applications are offering vista compatibility, so really, all I have trouble with is games. 

Vista is much more user friendly than Linux. Everything is organized better in vista than xp. The search is better. More things are becoming compatible. I see no difference in multitasking in XP and Vista. 

Pretty interesting the high-def videos. I have never encountered this. But then again, I run vista on a laptop, so Movie watching is not even that great anyway. 

Vista is expensive to upgrade? Not if you buy a new machine.





> Your name is hard to spell:
> 
> Did you read that article? That guy is EXACTLY right.
> 
> I don't know EXACTLY why, but i just know that when i use ubuntu, i get more performance on less hardware than Vista on my high-tech box.
> 
> I'll give you two good reasons why *nix is better than windows:
> 
> 1.) Backwards compatibility
> ...



*Seismosaur* -- 1. Linux is small. It can boot fast. It can access files fast. ( Or so I've been told) Linux is not compatible with any big title games I can think of. Linux is confusing and overly complicated. In the office we have a linux machine. No one touches it, except when we are forced to use it. I havn't ever considered using Linux and I doubt I ever will.

2. I notice no difference between windows vista and xp in multitasking, but I only use linux when forced to, so you could be right there.

*EDIT: Sigh. I don't think this will help at all. You guys are probably not going to convert me to Linux, or Ubuntu, and I don't think I'll bring you back to vista. I've already spent too much time arguing, you both already probably have too, so I think it would be wise if we just stopped here, since neither of us seem to be able to reach a conclusion.*

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## Sornaensis

1.) Linux isn't over-complicated, it is just not dumbed-down.

2.) DX10 isn't any different from DX9, just a few minor changes. (Like any version to version API)

3.) Ubuntu is a distro of linux

4.) WINE runs plenty of MS games. Also: Microsoft is going to be forced to allow future versions of ubuntu to use DX because of anti-competitive reasons.

5.) Shame on you for not knowing how to turn on a computer, and log in. (You can't use linux? LMFAO)

Yea, i'm done with this, you are hopeless  :Sad: .

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## ninja9578

> 2. I notice no difference between windows vista and xp in multitasking, but I only use linux when forced to, so you could be right there.



After 7 years of development I would hope that there is a big difference in multitasking.  Of course there isn't.  It's poor at taking full advantage of the multicore processors (as does Linux.)  Both Linux and Windows support multicore processing, but only OSX Leopard is really good at it.

DirectX is dying technology.  OpenGL is the industry standard, and it's what taught in all of the schools.



This is why Microsoft will eventually fall:  Their busniess model is reliant on other companies to create the technology that moves the industry forwards.  But creating new technology is expensive and risky, especially if there is no guarentee that it will be implemented; thus the PC technology moves very slowly.  They don't want to come out with amazing new technology because Windows isn't guarenteed to support it.  The tablets were a great example.  A few companies released tablets, but Windows wasn't designed for it.  There were external drivers written and they worked fine, but the overall experience suffered.  Buttons were too small and hard to press, there was no platform-wide handwriting recognition tool, without multitouch support there is no way to have an effective on screen keyboard...  Apple thought everything out when it designed the iPhone which is basically a miniature tablet.  Windows couldn't do that because of the huge number of configurations that it has to support.

I think in ten year most of the large computer companies will be gone and the other will have migrated to hardware specific operating systems like Apple.




"I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft." - Jim Allchin

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## Grod

> 1.) Linux isn't over-complicated, it is just not dumbed-down.
> 
> 2.) DX10 isn't any different from DX9, just a few minor changes. (Like any version to version API)
> 
> 3.) Ubuntu is a distro of linux
> 
> 4.) WINE runs plenty of MS games. Also: Microsoft is going to be forced to allow future versions of ubuntu to use DX because of anti-competitive reasons.
> 
> 5.) Shame on you for not knowing how to turn on a computer, and log in. (You can't use linux? LMFAO)
> ...




I know I said I wouldn't respond to this, but I feel the need to.



1.) Maybe if Linux "dumbed down" they would get more users. As I said, it's not user friendly. Average people want to use computers as easily as possible. I wonder why Linux is so unpopular?

2.) I don't think I ever said there was a difference. I merely quoted Ynot. Please read the post.

3.) Again, did I ever say it wasn't? I don't use those, and never will, so I don't care what they are. One of you said you used linux or Ubuntu, or whatever it is, I don't remember who.

4.) Sure. Linux is still not the least bit enjoyable.

5.) I hate linux. I didn't say I couldn't use it. Please do us a favor, and read the post. I've used linux! I think I stated that several times.

Listen, I don't care if some guy calls me "hopeless". As I said before, you're not going to convert me to Linux. You're wasting your time trying. You obviously didn't read my posts. Nice try.

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## Ynot

Wait....

Kaniaz, is that you?

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## ninja9578

Dumbing it down would really help.  Computers are supposed to be as simple as possible, ever wonder why Macs are getting more popular?

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## Sornaensis

> Dumbing it down would really help.  Computers are supposed to be as simple as possible, ever wonder why Macs are getting more popular?



maybe, but computers should also be as fast, smooth, and capable as possible. I.E. Letting the user do EXACTLY what they want to do. Ubuntu is probably the simplest and most powerful OS i have used. I like it. And <w/etfurnameis> I feel bad for you. I seriously do. Stop posting, you are looking more and more ignorant :-\.

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## arby

The big difference:

On Linux, the computer does what you tell it to.

On Windows... you do what the computer tells you to do

and often it's not really sure what to tell you so... uh... go with something else?

And about macs.. I often see them as the mid point. A mac tends to be more like windows then an Ubuntu machine but more like Ubuntu then a Windows machine. Do you like the way that mac is different then windows? Well, Linux is that step farther into non-windows bliss.

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## ninja9578

For the common user simpler is better.  Intuitive, simple interfaces are the best.  They should only be complicated for guys like us.  Windows is overly complicated, where as Ubuntu and OSX are fairly simple.  For guys like us the Mac still has the UNIX terminal and Linux has that powerful terminal too.

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## Grod

> maybe, but computers should also be as fast, smooth, and capable as possible. I.E. Letting the user do EXACTLY what they want to do. Ubuntu is probably the simplest and most powerful OS i have used. I like it. And <w/etfurnameis> I feel bad for you. I seriously do. Stop posting, you are looking more and more ignorant :-\.



I like your arguments. Really, I do. When you can't make a point, you call me ignorant. Good strategy. I hope someday it works.  ::D:  

Here's a tip: It's doesn't really work to call someone ignorant when you yourself, are not responding with logical arguments. When you lose, just call them ignorant. I pity you, man. Just give up. You're digging a deeper hole for yourself.

*Ynot* -- Kaniaz?  ::?:  


*ninja9578*




> Dumbing it down would really help. Computers are supposed to be as simple as possible, ever wonder why Macs are getting more popular?



Yes, I agree completely.

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## Sornaensis

> I like your arguments. Really, I do. When you can't make a point, you call me ignorant. Good strategy. I hope someday it works.  
> 
> Here's a tip: It's doesn't really work to call someone ignorant when you yourself, are not responding with logical arguments. When you lose, just call them ignorant. I pity you, man. Just give up. You're digging a deeper hole for yourself.
> 
> *Ynot* -- Kaniaz?  
> 
> 
> *ninja9578*
> 
> ...



Using GNOME is as easy as turning on your computer. I pity you if you have trouble with it. 'Tis all i said.

Oh, and BTW: Ignorance is not the same as stupid. Ignorant means you are ignoring something. Stupidity is the inability to graps something.

std::

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## Ynot

> *Ynot* -- Kaniaz?



a past member here

you just reminded me of him, that's all

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## Grod

> Using GNOME is as easy as turning on your computer. I pity you if you have trouble with it. 'Tis all i said.
> 
> Oh, and BTW: Ignorance is not the same as stupid. Ignorant means you are ignoring something. Stupidity is the inability to graps something.
> 
> std::



I hope this is the last post in our senseless argument.  :tongue2: 

I didn't say ignorance is the same thing as being stupid.

*RasenganXXChidori*




> I like your arguments. Really, I do. When you can't make a point, you call me ignorant. Good strategy. I hope someday it works.



All this meant, was that some people just have a habit of throwing that word around, when it doesn't really apply.





> Oh, and BTW: Ignorance is not the same as stupid. Ignorant means you are ignoring something. Stupidity is the inability to graps something.



If you were going for thinly veiled irony directed towards me, it doesn't work either.
From Merriam-Webster Online:

* IGNORANT*
1 a: destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> b: resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>

"Lack of intelligence." = Stupid.  As you can see, ignorant does not mean




> Ignorant means you are ignoring something



Ignorant and ignoring something both have the same root, but mean very different things. 

Irony, anyone?

GNOME? Since when were we talking about that? I thought we were talking about Linux. I looked up this GNOME, and I found out it goes with linux, as a desktop enviorment. I'm not stopping you from talking about this GNOME, but I never mentioned this.

*Seismosaur*




> 5.) Shame on you for not knowing how to turn on a computer, and log in. (You can't use linux? LMFAO)



I was also under the impression that using a computer involves more than turning it on. 



I'm out.

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## Ynot

seems MS is backing down on some of Vista's DRM due to massive complaints

"Kill switch" to be dropped by SP1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7126902.stm

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## ninja9578

So, in November did PC World really say that Vista runs fastest on a Mac?  :tongue2:

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## arby

Question, WHY would ANYONE bother trying to get an illegal copy of vista?

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## Grod

> Question, WHY would ANYONE bother trying to get an illegal copy of vista?



Cause it's the awesomest thing ever.

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## Jdeadevil

If Vista is glitchy and buggy, woudn't getting a torrent or something be *even more glitchy and buggy*?

Think opening a folder named Vista in Local Disk, double click and the computer crashes.  ::lol::

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## Grod

> If Vista is glitchy and buggy, woudn't getting a torrent or something be *even more glitchy and buggy*?
> 
> Think opening a folder named Vista in Local Disk, double click and the computer crashes.



The rumors are that vista is glitchy -- but it really isn't.

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## Scatterbrain

> GNOME? Since when were we talking about that? I thought we were talking about Linux. I looked up this GNOME, and I found out it goes with linux, as a desktop enviorment. I'm not stopping you from talking about this GNOME, but I never mentioned this.



Just to clear things up: GNOME is the desktop environment that comes by default with ubuntu. If you are talking about ubuntu then most of the time you are also talking about GNOME.

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## Grod

> Just to clear things up: GNOME is the desktop environment that comes by default with ubuntu. If you are talking about ubuntu then most of the time you are also talking about GNOME.



Oh, word. I was just talking about Linux in general though.

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## Scatterbrain

It's not very fair to talk about "Linux in general" when it differs between distributions.

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## Ynot

> It's not very fair to talk about "Linux in general" when it differs between distributions.



no it doesn't  :tongue2: 

the linux on my phone is the same as the linux on my desktop
that's what makes it so versatile

Once something makes it to the mainline kernel (device drivers, filesystems, whatever) it's available on every linux device

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## Scatterbrain

Well I'm still new to linux but package management and the system configuration (bundled software, etc) that comes by default varies right?

Now I'm using ubuntu, I've tried slackware before and it felt much more aggressive.  :tongue2:

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## Replicon

I thought Compiz was the default WM that came with Ubuntu (at least with 7.10)

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## Ynot

> I thought Compiz was the default WM that came with Ubuntu (at least with 7.10)



it is

The desktop environment (Gnome, KDE, etc) hands off the window management to the window manager (metacity, compiz fusion, etc.)

it's all modular
hence how you can flit between different DE's and WM'ers





> Well I'm still new to linux but package management and the system configuration (bundled software, etc) that comes by default varies right?
> 
> Now I'm using ubuntu, I've tried slackware before and it felt much more aggressive.



Yes, the userland applications and utilities vary, but the underlying kernel (linux) is the same

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## Namaste

Had vista for ages now and no problems at all!

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## Ynot

> Had vista for ages now and no problems at all!



horses for courses, mate
enough people are having problems for it to be newsworthy

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## Namaste

Just stating my experience tis all - i am sure others do have probs

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## Grod

> Just stating my experience tis all - i am sure others do have probs



Like any os.

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## Ynot

> Like any os.



name one other OS that self-destructs when it fails it's DRM authentication

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## Replicon

> name one other OS that self-destructs when it fails it's DRM authentication



Do you mean to say that one day, you might boot up, and your internet might be flaky and drop packets, and it will count is as  DRM failure, and nuke itself and all your work along with it? Coooool!  ::D:

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## Replicon

> it is
> 
> The desktop environment (Gnome, KDE, etc) hands off the window management to the window manager (metacity, compiz fusion, etc.)
> 
> it's all modular
> hence how you can flit between different DE's and WM'ers



Ah you were referring to the desktop managers (gdm, kdm, xdm, etc.), my bad. By the way, what kinds of performance implications do they have? Let's say you're using some arbitrary WM, is there a clear winner for which DM you should use, or does it really vary depending on your usage patterns and which specific WM you use?

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## Grod

> name one other OS that self-destructs when it fails it's DRM authentication



every os has specific problems

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## arby

> every os has specific problems



Yeah, but normally they're not designed that way XD

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## Ynot

Vista gets the #1 spot on PC World's "15 Biggest Tech Disappointments of 2007"

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,14...s/article.html

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## ninja9578

Microsoft on that list three times  :tongue2:   Not surprisingly though.  I was surprised to see Leopard on there, I have had no major problems with it, nor has anyone else that I know.  Also everyone I know that has one loves their iPhone.  I thought that the iPhone should have been replaced with the AppleTV.  The device itself is great, but it seems like Apple has completely forgotten about it.

I also surprised that iTunes wasn't mentioned in the HD wars.  Most people my age get their movies from sources like that and iTunes still fails to include high definition programming, even though the AppleTV connects exclusively to HDTVs.

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