# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity > Induction Techniques >  >  The Phase Blew Me Away

## kingofhypocrites

*So if you have heard of "The Phase" by Michael Raduga you know it's nothing new in terms of the experience. He uses the term "The Phase" to refer to all of the lucid dreaming related phenomenon (as we would say) other people refer to by different terms.* I totally agree with the assessment that these are all pretty much the same thing. _Explorations in Consciousness is a great book on this topic (i.e.: lucid dreaming vs. OBE's)._ 

His documentary video is a bit out there with some conspiracy stuff (i.e.: the government wants to control us) and his idea that all religions come from the phase (the guy is clearly an atheist), but if you get past all of the "every cool thing in the world come from the phase bologna" you realize his technique is somewhat unique. I am not aware of any major religion that claims that all dreams are divine, so his experiments about reproducing religious experiments seem to be more about Hollywood glamorization. That caveat aside, I found great success with his technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGwb...8518F4BA44BF5D

*He claims that 80 percent (if I remember correctly) of people are able to succeed within 3 days of trying his technique*. Granted these are via his workshops where the experience levels are probably inclusive of experts and the intent is extremely high. *It took me about 5 days of trying his technique but I had 3 lucids back to back using it this morning and they were pretty epic in total.* The first was short but the second two were quite amazing in terms of length, clarity, and stability. Robin Williams also made a guest appearance. I don't attribute the quality necessary to the technique but I rarely have had a more stable lucid where I could look away and back again and everything was exactly the same. 

So here are my impressions:
The first couple of days I didn't have much luck although I had one experience where I lifted out of my body but felt glued to it. I couldn't quite pull out. I pulled so hard (intently) I could feel my physical body start to move and eventually gave up. I would reiterate that I don't believe I am literally leaving my body. Today however I cycled techniques as he describes and eventually struck gold with the rolling technique. I could feel my body start to sway even though I thought I was totally awake. I kept swaying and rolled out completely into my bedroom. This worked for my three times throughout the morning. _This is after trying numerous OBE style techniques over the years with very little success._ The key clearly is to attempt this as soon as you wake up.

His book is free now (maybe because he didn't appear to sell any copies on Amazon) and is on his website at Out-of-Body Experience and Lucid Dreaming. 

*So you will probably see it at first and think that is just a DEILD. But, in fact it's quite different. Bear in mind I have had hundreds of DEILDs and his approach is superior I believe since it doesn't rely on one method to get back into a dream. Normally I would focus on the previous dream or try to visualize, but this is just one method he uses as part of a cycle which includes several tactile techniques.* 

I saw some really old posts about his book, but nothing substantial and wanted to bring this to forefront for newer dreamers. 

He also has some WILD style techniques although they are a split between typical anchoring and using cycling as described in his indirect techniques (although only the anchoring is mentioned in his book). 

In regards to the DEILDs style technique I won't bother to describe it since it's outlined in the video and his book, but let me know if anyone has had success with it. 

*In general if you aren't waking up and lying perfectly still then trying his techniques you are missing an awesome weapon in your arsenal.* His method should be written out and sticky-ed I believe although I am not sure if there are copyright implications. I think his material is free to use though and would be happy to type out the process if anyone is interested.

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## Kaan

There is a thread where we share our results.

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## kingofhypocrites

I am aware. If you read my post you will see I am sharing a technique that is not discussed on these forums. I chose not to list out all the steps and instead provided a link. I also chose to share my experience with the technique which pretty much "everyone" does when they share a technique. Hence it is in the attaining lucidity section. The whole point of my post is the help others by introducing new ideas to help them obtain lucidity. My experience is just to add credibility to the technique and to show I actually tried it for myself.

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## Kaan

http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...gas-phase.html

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## kingofhypocrites

Stop trolling my posts man. You either have a crush on me or you have a bone to pick with Michael Raduga. Either way I don't care. And that post is from beyond dreaming. Maybe you should go complain that it's in the wrong category. My original post acknowledged that he has been mentioned on the forums in the past although I had never seen that particular post.

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## spellbee2

Woah there, kingofhypocrites, not entirely sure that was called for. Kaan was not attacking you or Michael Raduga, he's just informing you that there's already a thread that talks about this book quite a bit. And it's not one of those ones "really old posts" (it's been active within the past month), nor is it "nothing substantial" (it's 11 pages of posts). If you were to post your experience there, you would probably get more substantial feedback from people who have already posted in that thread.

Now if you were to actually read that thread instead of completely disregarding it, you would see it's reasoning for being in Beyond Dreaming (other than the obvious fact that the title of the website is *OBE*4u).





> Oh, it's not "shoved" here. OP was asking about this method with relation to OBEs. In general lucid section, he would hear answers like OBEs don't exist and his method is just WILD method.
> 
> That's why I put it here, so OP gets answers from people who believe in OBEs. As you can see I post here quite a lot and I also practice OBEs.



Finally, I'd like to refer you to this helpful bit of advice from the forum rules:





> *IMPORTANT THINGS TO REMEMBER WHEN POSTING:*
> 
> 1. An attack on your ideas is not necessarily an attack on you. I know it's not easy, but please keep this in mind because this is how fights break out unintentionally.
> 
> 2. When uncertain about being attacked, give the benefit of the doubt. Keep in mind how difficult it is to convey emotion over the Internet; unless it's glaringly evident that a poster means you harm, it's quite possible none was intended. (Not all of us like decorating our posts with smilies in order to take any possibly-perceived edge off.) Ask for clarification if necessary.



EDIT: Upon further review, this thread is more fit for discussing the LDing aspects of The Phase than the OBE one in BD. Feel free to use this thread for discussion of lucid-dreaming related experiences using this method. 

OBE related discussion of The Phase should be directed here: http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...gas-phase.html

Now please try to stay on topic and avoid inflammatory remarks.

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## Kaan

@kingofhypocrites  sorry that you think I was trolling your thread. 
I was away from any keyboard and my phone is not useful at all for writing more that few words + I didn't have much time.
I just wanted to inform you and people who will read this thread and the other recent one that there is a thread where we discuss about Raduga's technique, book, and how it works for us.

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## EbbTide000

Thank you kingofhypocrites





> *So if you have heard of "The Phase" by Michael Raduga you know it's nothing new in terms of the experience. He uses the term "The Phase" to refer to all of the lucid dreaming related phenomenon (as we would say) other people refer to by different terms.* I totally agree with the assessment that these are all pretty much the same thing. _Explorations in Consciousness is a great book on this topic (i.e.: lucid dreaming vs. OBE's)._ 
> 
> His documentary video is a bit out there with some conspiracy stuff (i.e.: the government wants to control us) and his idea that all religions come from the phase (the guy is clearly an atheist), but if you get past all of the "every cool thing in the world come from the phase bologna" you realize his technique is somewhat unique. I am not aware of any major religion that claims that all dreams are divine, so his experiments about reproducing religious experiments seem to be more about Hollywood glamorization. That caveat aside, I found great success with his technique.
> 
> ♡
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGwb...8518F4BA44BF5D
> 
> ♡(52:54) 1,838 views now
> ...



At the (0:45) point of this (3:22) Youtube It says

♡  

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=65&v=64_MvWQ25M8

♡

"As a rule "the Phase" comes as your *waking-up* or *falling asleep*. That's the moment when amazing super-realistic experiences can happen to you".

☆From the Youtube, "All about lucid dreams and OBE in 3 minutes"

Michael Raduga*18,092 views

Published on Apr 14, 2014
DID YOU TRY THIS TECHNIQUE?☆

Wow kingofhypocrites

I have posted many times that I'm not a Lucid Dreamer. I'm more a "Hipnagoger" (hahaha). That means that when I'm playing a dream game with others I get "hipnapopic" (falling-to-sleep-images) and/or "hipnagogic" (waking images) *relevant* to our dream game. Sometimes I remember dream fragments and have a tune running through my head too.

So

That bit of the Youtube grabbed me.

In case you are interested, kingofhypocrites

Here is a powerful dream game that can cause "hipnapopic and hipnagogic images" relating to "action" on my sacred beach between the Henley and Grange Jetties. 

♡

http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...ml#post2156791

♡

★69/4,600 views

I built it with the help of BobV (see the link in my signature)

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## kingofhypocrites

> @kingofhypocrites  sorry that you think I was trolling your thread. 
> I was away from any keyboard and my phone is not useful at all for writing more that few words + I didn't have much time.
> I just wanted to inform you and people who will read this thread and the other recent one that there is a thread where we discuss about Raduga's technique, book, and how it works for us.



Thanks Kaan. Sorry I misunderstood your intentions. I posted that after you made a similar comment on one of my other threads which isn't apparent from just reading this post in sequence. In any case, sorry. Since you are familiar with his work you know he does not believe OBEs and Lucid Dreaming to be separate phenomenon, so this is by all means a lucid dreaming technique and not just something for those with more esoteric view points as found in beyond dreaming. I rarely if ever visit that section. A lot of people use the term OBE simply to mean that you have a perspective that is out of body and could be as broad as to even include non-lucid dreams that are in a fantasy setting (i.e.: you don't have to see your body or think your are in a physical plane...or be literally out of your body for that matter). I just wanted to touch on that because his website obe4u is a bit misleading in title (in reference to something spellbee2 mentioned as well via pm) since from my understanding he does not believe you are literally out of body. One can only assume he adopts more of the latter view about having focus away from the physical constitutes an OBE and is not related to literally leaving your body. I think this is probably why he adopted "The Phase" term rather than saying lucid dreaming or OBEs. If you look at his older videos though, he seems to focus on the term lucid dreaming, even though he describes what many would call an OBE. In any case, i hope the audience can be broadened a bit and that some will benefit from this thread as well.

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## kingofhypocrites

@EbbTide000, Thanks I am checking it out now.  :smiley:

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## Kaan

@kingofhypocrites :
I must admit I agree with about 100% of what you wrote on your first post.
For me it worked the very first time I tried it, as it worked the very first time the one who spoke me about it tried it (SearcherTMR).
I also had got my first ever voluntary induced OBE thanks to this technique.

The reason why Raduga uses "the phase" including both LD and OBE (I think both are just different kinds of LD) without being very clear on what he thinks about the true nature of OBE's is probably business/audience  related.
I think that even if he believes that this is all about dreams, he understood that Lucid Dreamers are relatively rare next to "Astral Travelers", so he wanted to interest ATers+LDers+people concerned by Sleep Paralysis or E.T abductions and he could not do this by saying too clearly "hey people, this is all about dreams".

I think the harder part of his technique is to actually notice each micro awakening without moving at all and immediately  trying the cycles (and doing it properly) .
I find that the use of Galantamine + A-GPC greatly improves my chances to be successful but it doesn't really improve the faculty to notice the micro awakenings (I mean it does but above all it helps to cross the dream world avoiding the N-REM phases), so I also try to figure out how to use technology to help me with this micro awakenings hunting (by waking me up or by making me more aware of the Micro Awakenings).
So I am working on different stuffs like a vibrating alarm (Gymboss minimax), RemDreamer, and I also try to study other techniques like the famous Lucidology101's stuff that I try to mix with the Raduga's technique.

I have read the Raduga's mini E-book that I printed, and I know that I am probably making things too complicated, but it's how I am: I try to build my own technique, something that will work very well for me, so I have to adapt the Raduga's technique to myself.
It will probably take me about a year or more to find the perfect technique.
I'd like to find something that also works without LD supplements.

I noticed that my success on entering the phase doesn't really depend on my ability to imagine very well the movements I choose for the cycles, cause when the very short "WILD" windows is opening itself, what I try to imagine myself doing, no matter what, becomes very easy to imagine even if it was hard to visualize just before , and few seconds later I am actually doing it "for real" in the Dream.
I also notice that whatever I am trying to imagine: walking, looking through my eyelids, doing bicycle, whatever, when the short WILD windows opens itself, It simply works.
So I guess the most important thing is to imagine yourself doing or seeing something, no matter what,  when the REM window is opening itself. If there is a REM stage beginning at this moment, it becomes a WILD windows and you enter a LD, or an OBE depending on what you where imagining at this moment.

Not all the Micro Awakenings are close to a WILD window, that's why his technique needs to be attempted several times a night, and so there is a "random/luck" aspect  that I don't like very much. 
That's why I work hard on a way to improve it.
What I'd like to find is a way to only notice the exploitable Micro Awakenings, or to induce them.

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## FryingMan

> @kingofhypocrites :
> 
> What I'd like to find is a way to only notice the exploitable Micro Awakenings, or to induce them.



Oh boy, understatement of the millennium!   Wouldn't that be great?   I think what you may be looking for is something like Sensei's "all-modes" approach.  Whenever he gains 'consciousness' he attempts to teleport: if he's in a FA or even perhaps an "exploitable Micro Awakening", the teleport succeeds and then he goes on with his lucid dream.   Otherwise he tries for a quick WILD, but aiming more for sleep, if he gets the WILD, then great, and if not, then it's back to sleep and hopefully DILD from all the "thinking of LDing." 

So something like that I think is what you're looking for.   The most successful LDers get really good at judging their state from "feel" and then apply the most appropriate approach from their toolkit.   I'm a bit lazy to develop something like this but I think it is the key to really frequent LDs.  

I'm also quite excited to think about really diving in to "The Phase" -- at least, making a concerted effort at noticing all dream transitions (including wakings).

So the real trick isn't just only noticing the exploitable MAs, it's quickly and accurately running through a mental list to determine just what sort of waking you have, and the choose the best response for it.   If you don't have immediate REM left on tap, why not spend 10 minutes in a WILD dive to see if the next one is coming soon?   And if a quick WILD doesn't bear fruit, just aim right for sleep and try again!

The beauty of the "phase" and Sensei's approaches is that the very first thing attempted is purely mental: so you don't ruin a DEILD or quick WILD opportunity with physical movement (like a nose pinch).

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## kingofhypocrites

@Kaan, I think you are correct in that he wants to market to a broad audience and seems to deliberately avoid denoting what he believes the phenomenon to be. For most people, I believe the idea of leaving your body or engaging in some new "unknown" phenomenon is more exciting than the prospect of lucid dreaming. I know for me growing up I wasted a lot of time with OBE techniques when i was already having multiple lucid dreams per week. The idea of roaming the physical world was just too alluring and was partly ill guidance from Robert Monroe's book, which he himself later could not prove he was in the physical realm via laboratory experiments. 

That aside, this technique worked yet again for me today so I continue to be a huge fan. I typically halfheartedly attempt WILDs in the middle of the night and luckily "The Phase" approach serves as a plan B for my later morning awakenings. 

In regards to your reference about lucidology... I spent several months studying all 3 lucidology courses (over the course of a few years) and eventually realized these techniques are not for me. The OBE timer is legit, although, I found it hard to fall back asleep fast enough most of the time even with longer ramps and eventually it started to give me insomnia so I had to step away from it. It does work however. The thing that never worked was his frozen still approach to WILDs. I have to move around a lot to remain comfortable so I realized this was a terrible approach for my physiology. However if I wake up in the middle of the night half awake, the frozen approach method works great and is pretty much what Michael Raduga recommends as well, but I find this easy since I am very relaxed already. In the FAQ of the lucidology videos, Nicholas/Matt says the same thing even though you would never know it from the videos. He says his techniques are all about falling asleep and the key is to wake up and go back to sleep over and over (without moving) so you are really relaxed. Notice the distinction there... he says wake up and fall asleep without moving not go to sleep the very first time without moving (which is far more difficult). I was blown away by this as he seems to make a 360 from his original 101 videos. If you have the lucidology 102, check out the audio FAQ.

You noted that you think that entering the phase doesn't depend on cycling, but I would have to disagree. I think this is why it works so well. I for instance am terrible at visualizing things. I have had many DEILDs by getting a sense of the previous dream (so yes sometimes it does), but when I use the phase technique it is the tactile cycles that do it for me. The rolling one has been one to work for me every time, whereas none of the others have worked. One might argue that one you find that one you should stick with it and maybe that is true, but I guess from Micheal Raduga's experiments he finds that different ones can work at different times for the same person. For now I will continue to loop through the visual and tactile based techniques to see  how things continue. It may also be that directing your mind to different tasks quickly helps to keep it from getting too stressed and causing you to become more mentally alert.

Galantamine seems legit. I wish I could take that stuff. I seem to be sensitive to everything. I had a bad reaction to alpha-gpc and have been afraid to touch it since. I've heard you can have some pretty epic lucids with it. I also wish I could find a good vibrating wrist watch. I think it's easier to remain still when you are awoken by an alarm because the sound of it reminds you. However I find an audio alarm to be too jarring. I tend to wake up a lot throughout the night, so it gives me a lot of chances for attempts. Probably the only good things about sub-par sleep  :smiley:

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## kingofhypocrites

@Fryingman  I absolutely think that is the way to go... employing different techniques based on the situation. Between my reality check/awareness practice, WILD attempts, and DEILDs, I am able to have several lucid dreams every week.

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## TDHXIII

I'm quite confused with this. What is this exactly? I'm looking for lucid dreams and not OBEs'

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## kingofhypocrites

> I'm quite confused with this. What is this exactly? I'm looking for lucid dreams and not OBEs'



*There is no difference really. It's more of a philosophical thing. This is a "lucid dreaming" technique.* Because you are aware of your body when you start the technique it is common that your dream will start in a "dream version" of your bedroom. Sometimes it will look very similar to your real bedroom with minor things out of place. Other times it might be a bedroom in a house you used to live in or one you have never seen. It is common when doing the technique to look and see your body on the bed. It's just a dream. You will notice OBE techniques are pretty much identical to lucid dreaming ones because they are "the same experience". 

Sometimes your body won't be there at all. *Because of the realism of some of these experiences some people think they are literally out of their body in their literal bedroom, but they are not.* This is especially common if the person can see their body and their dream bedroom seems to be consistent with their real one. If you are not focused on your body when performing the technique it will be more likely to instead enter a dream scene in some unknown place rather than your bedroom. I explain in the previous posts within the thread that there is no difference if you want further information -- but feel free to ask questions.

*Don't let the OBE terminology hold you back. This is no different than other lucid dreaming techniques other than the fact that you have a little more control over inducing them.*

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## TDHXIII

> *There is no difference really. It's more of a philosophical thing. This is a "lucid dreaming" technique.* Because you are aware of your body when you start the technique it is common that your dream will start in a "dream version" of your bedroom. Sometimes it will look very similar to your real bedroom with minor things out of place. Other times it might be a bedroom in a house you used to live in or one you have never seen. It is common when doing the technique to look and see your body on the bed. It's just a dream. You will notice OBE techniques are pretty much identical to lucid dreaming ones because they are "the same experience". 
> 
> Sometimes your body won't be there at all. *Because of the realism of some of these experiences some people think they are literally out of their body in their literal bedroom, but they are not.* This is especially common if the person can see their body and their dream bedroom seems to be consistent with their real one. If you are not focused on your body when performing the technique it will be more likely to instead enter a dream scene in some unknown place rather than your bedroom. I explain in the previous posts within the thread that there is no difference if you want further information -- but feel free to ask questions.
> 
> *Don't let the OBE terminology hold you back. This is no different than other lucid dreaming techniques other than the fact that you have a little more control over inducing them.*



Interesting. It's not easy for me to stay still after waking up by nature. Is there another way to do it that is similar to the traditional WILD where you wake up, then go back to bed moments later to do the actual technique?

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## kingofhypocrites

It takes practice. It is not automatic by any means and I not able to do it every time. I imagine with practice you could do it quite consistently. As I mentioned previously, I was able to do it 3 times in one morning although it is not natural for me either to remain still when waking up. But, when I am mindful of it, I am able to accomplish it somewhat easily If you check out the book on his website, part of the technique is using autosuggestion (or prospective memory depending on how you interpret it) before going to bed for the night to help you with the staying still part.

Something like "Each time I awake from a dream I will remember to stay perfectly still.". I don't remember the exact wording but something along those lines that is repeated as you fall asleep. You might be able to use self-hypnosis if you are familiar with it. Other than that simply having the intent will help -- because if your mind is focused on the intention you will start to remember to do it each time you wake up. You might also experiment with a beep that goes off at a certain time in the night after several hours. There are various iphone apps for doing this where you don't have to set an actual alarm that has to be shut off. I don't really recommend this as it will affect your sleep and sometimes the beep can be too jarring which will make it harder to do the technique.

If you wake up and open your eyes I wouldn't bother trying the technique. Instead go back to sleep and try again. The book goes into detail about this. Typically, the first second you wake up you should try separation (i.e. into your dream bedroom) if you haven't moved at all. If you have moved but not opened your eyes or immediate separation didn't work, you can still try cycling through the techniques. Of course it's easier if you don't move at all. The less awake the better. 

While this is similar to a WILD, I would say it's more like a DEILD. To say can it performed like a WILD is really the wrong line of thinking. The whole point of the technique is to skip the difficult relaxation and anchoring process you would have to perform with a WILD. A standard WILD technique is much more difficult and it's more difficult because you have to go through a relaxation process without falling asleep. It's possible to wake up a few seconds with your eyes open and then proceed to do the technique, but it's harder. The book refers to this as the direct technique and can be performed as a standard WBTB as well. I wouldn't focus on doing it more WILD style, but rather focus on not moving when you wake up. Yes, this takes practice, but probably less practice than doing a straight WILD style approach. This is basically what he recommends in his book as well... to focus on the indirect approach (which is to not move when waking up) before moving to incorporate a direct approach (WBTB style). 

I like a multi-approach style:
1) Reality checks throughout day
2) MILD style suggestions going to bed and when awakening at night.
3) Random WILD attempts as a WBTB, especially if I get up to to the bathroom.
4) Phase techniques when i wake up in the late morning as described in this thread.

I would recommend just starting with the phase techniques and possible reality checks. Save the WILD practice for later.

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## TDHXIII

> It takes practice. It is not automatic by any means and I not able to do it every time. I imagine with practice you could do it quite consistently. As I mentioned previously, I was able to do it 3 times in one morning although it is not natural for me either to remain still when waking up. But, when I am mindful of it, I am able to accomplish it somewhat easily If you check out the book on his website, part of the technique is using autosuggestion (or prospective memory depending on how you interpret it) before going to bed for the night to help you with the staying still part.
> 
> Something like "Each time I awake from a dream I will remember to stay perfectly still.". I don't remember the exact wording but something along those lines that is repeated as you fall asleep. You might be able to use self-hypnosis if you are familiar with it. Other than that simply having the intent will help -- because if your mind is focused on the intention you will start to remember to do it each time you wake up. You might also experiment with a beep that goes off at a certain time in the night after several hours. There are various iphone apps for doing this where you don't have to set an actual alarm that has to be shut off. I don't really recommend this as it will affect your sleep and sometimes the beep can be too jarring which will make it harder to do the technique.
> 
> If you wake up and open your eyes I wouldn't bother trying the technique. Instead go back to sleep and try again. The book goes into detail about this. Typically, the first second you wake up you should try separation (i.e. into your dream bedroom) if you haven't moved at all. If you have moved but not opened your eyes or immediate separation didn't work, you can still try cycling through the techniques. Of course it's easier if you don't move at all. The less awake the better. 
> 
> While this is similar to a WILD, I would say it's more like a DEILD. To say can it performed like a WILD is really the wrong line of thinking. The whole point of the technique is to skip the difficult relaxation and anchoring process you would have to perform with a WILD. A standard WILD technique is much more difficult and it's more difficult because you have to go through a relaxation process without falling asleep. It's possible to wake up a few seconds with your eyes open and then proceed to do the technique, but it's harder. The book refers to this as the direct technique and can be performed as a standard WBTB as well. I wouldn't focus on doing it more WILD style, but rather focus on not moving when you wake up. Yes, this takes practice, but probably less practice than doing a straight WILD style approach. This is basically what he recommends in his book as well... to focus on the indirect approach (which is to not move when waking up) before moving to incorporate a direct approach (WBTB style). 
> 
> I like a multi-approach style:
> ...



So basically i should use auto suggestion to stay still after awakening from a dream. Then directly after waking up i do the separation techniques..

This all sounds very easy right now, but is it actually possible *for anyone* to awake from a dream, without moving and be aware of it? Because i will try this out.

Edit: I have read the instructions and will attempt this for the next days. I will report back when i can.

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## FryingMan

> So basically i should use auto suggestion to stay still after awakening from a dream. Then directly after waking up i do the separation techniques..
> 
> This all sounds very easy right now, but is it actually possible *for anyone* to awake from a dream, without moving and be aware of it? Because i will try this out.
> 
> Edit: I have read the instructions and will attempt this for the next days. I will report back when i can.



The closer to lucidity you are in the dream as you awake, the more likely you'll awaken without extreme disorientation where it is very easy to start moving without thinking about it.   If I'm really totally non-lucid upon waking then I find waking very disorienting and I usually move before I realize what's going on.   But I do not focus on noticing wakings.   It is one of my goals though, as I think DEILD/Phase like technique in the late morning is a really fabulous way to get lots of LDs.

But for DEILD, moving a little is not a guaranteed loss of the DEILD opportunity.  It's not ideal, but it's not fatal.  Much more important is keeping that dreamy/drowsy mindset and just drifting right back off to sleep.

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## TDHXIII

> The closer to lucidity you are in the dream as you awake, the more likely you'll awaken without extreme disorientation where it is very easy to start moving without thinking about it.   If I'm really totally non-lucid upon waking then I find waking very disorienting and I usually move before I realize what's going on.   But I do not focus on noticing wakings.   It is one of my goals though, as I think DEILD/Phase like technique in the late morning is a really fabulous way to get lots of LDs.
> 
> But for DEILD, moving a little is not a guaranteed loss of the DEILD opportunity.  It's not ideal, but it's not fatal.  Much more important is keeping that dreamy/drowsy mindset and just drifting right back off to sleep.



I'm not close to lucidity normally, but i don't move a lot when i wake up. I have to see for myself. If this technique just doesnt work out well for me, then i'll go back to FILDing which i almost had success with today.

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## kingofhypocrites

@TDHXIII Good luck. I look forward to hearing your results. To answer your rhetorical question about whether anyone can do it... Raduga's seminars show an 80% success rate within two nights. I talk about this a bit more in previous posts. It took me five nights to have real success with it, but I wasn't as uber focused as people would be at a seminar. I would imagine about 99% of the population could do this. Perhaps those with rare health or sleep disorders may fill that 1% but I can't imagine anyone that wouldn't be able to achieve this at some point with practice. He recommends only practicing this on weekends when you can sleep in. I would definitely recommend reading his free book for all the caveats. You can skip the 100 testimonials and just read the indirect techniques section. I am assuming you have at least watched the video or read the book to learn the cycling techniques.

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## TDHXIII

> @TDHXIII Good luck. I look forward to hearing your results. To answer your rhetorical question about whether anyone can do it... Raduga's seminars show an 80% success rate within two nights. I talk about this a bit more in previous posts. It took me five nights to have real success with it, but I wasn't as uber focused as people would be at a seminar. I would imagine about 99% of the population could do this. Perhaps those with rare health or sleep disorders may fill that 1% but I can't imagine anyone that wouldn't be able to achieve this at some point with practice. He recommends only practicing this on weekends when you can sleep in. I would definitely recommend reading his free book for all the caveats. You can skip the 100 testimonials and just read the indirect techniques section. I am assuming you have at least watched the video or read the book to learn the cycling techniques.



i Read the indirect techniques part, and it makes sense as to why it works.
I'm going to try this through the whole week including the weekend. I will report back. Here I go...

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## Kaan

@ Kingofhypocrites





> That aside, this technique worked yet again for me today so I continue to be a huge fan. I typically halfheartedly attempt WILDs in the middle of the night and luckily "The Phase" approach serves as a plan B for my later morning awakenings.



-Can I ask you what is your protocol for WILD with details and timing please ? 
-After how much time of sleep do you consider entering in the "late morning phase" and how many hours of sleep a night do you need/sleep in total? 
-Do you have sleep debt during the week ? (because of having to wake up early each morning for work or whatever) and if yes, in which way do you think this potential REM Debt/ REM rebound is helping for WILD/DEILD/Raduga's technique ?
-Raduga is talking about waking up for WBTB with an alarm. Did you ever do it this way, and if yes what was the result?





> The thing that never worked was his frozen still approach to WILDs. I have to move around a lot to remain comfortable so I realized this was a terrible approach for my physiology. However if I wake up in the middle of the night half awake, the frozen approach method works great and is pretty much what Michael Raduga recommends as well, but I find this easy since I am very relaxed already



What is the frozen approach?





> If you have the lucidology 102, check out the audio FAQ.



I don't, I'll try to find it.





> You noted that you think that entering the phase doesn't depend on cycling, but I would have to disagree.



It's not what I mean.
Cycling 2 or 3 different kinds of "visualizing/imagining doing things" after having attempted a direct OBE is probably one of the key factors for success.
What I say is that I noticed that for me, the success was not related to where I was on my cycles but just being doing the cycle until a certain moment: the exact moment when the WILD/REM window starts to kick in.

At this particular moment, if I imagining myself walking, or doing bicycle or looking through my closed eyelids, or whatever, it works the same, and it doesn't really depend on my ability to imagining the stuff well, because at this exact moment, it becomes really easy to imagine, and few seconds later it becomes real. 
before that I had got several WILD by luck, and when the WILD window was kicking it, I was doing certain kinds of visualizing : once I was imagining myself manipulating a Playstation joystick, once I imagined myself jumping just where I was again and again,  another time I was just looking through my closed eyelids and was seeing the wall of the room.
I could give several other examples of random lucky WILD where I was successful by imagining very different stuffs one from each other, and when I compare with the success I had got with the raduga's stuff so far, I know that the exact same phenomenon happened.
That why I think that the key is reaching this exact moment where it becomes easy to imagine yourself doing something, no matter what, because when you are doing these stuffs at this moment, the WILD is just happening.

What Raduga's cycles technique probably does is this: it helps you to reach this particular moment with the good physiological and mental background.

You say that you are terrible at visualizing things, but what I think is that you don't have to be good at it, cause if you are doing it just when this REM window is about to kick in, you'll become good at visualizing (because the process in the brain that attenuates hallucinated images is about to stop his work to let the sub-conscious creating the Dreams contents, so you start to see and feel what you imagine seeing of feeling. When you wake up, this attenuating system starts again to prevent you from hallucinating stuffs in your real life).

As you know, the very first visualizing/imagining stuff to do with the raduga's technique is the direct OBE attempt.
I have been successful once with this approach and it gave me a very strong and complete OBE.
I guess it is because this particular visualization is very related to the body feelings, and if the REM windows is kicking it at this exact moment, you are likely to live an OBE, cause at this moment, the brain is focused on the real body, but this real body input is just turned off when the REM sleep kicks in. 
The brain probably interprets this sudden lack of body inputs (on which it was consciously focused on) as a weird thing and creates an OBE scenario, to give it a sens.

The question I ask to myself is : does the cycling only keep you focused until the WILD REM is coming, or does it make this window happening in some way?





> Galantamine seems legit. I wish I could take that stuff. I seem to be sensitive to everything. I had a bad reaction to alpha-gpc and have been afraid to touch it since.



What Galantamine will probably do is preventing you from falling asleep during the hour after you took it, depending on what you do during the WBTB.
If you take a very small amount of melatonine (0,30mg) when taking the Galantamine pill, you'll have chance to fall back to sleep faster.
I suppose this happen because the Galantamine being a pro AcetylCholine molecule (by stopping the destruction of AcétylCholine = stoping the AcetylCholinesterase ), it is a pro REM molecule.
So if it is a pro REM factor, I guess it has some  anti N-REM effects, and makes the slow sleep stages more difficult to attain.
But the good news is that you'll have less N-REM barriers to deal with.
The galantamine takes one hour to start to kick in as a WILD help.
But if you fall asleep and then wake up, it will become very easy to return back to sleep without loosing consciousness, by the help of the raduga's approach for example.
I recommend to read the Thomas Yusckak's book about LD supplements for WILD attempt, even if you don't plan to use supplements, it really helps to understand stuffs around WILDs, REM, sleep stages and so on.

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## kingofhypocrites

@Kaan,

In regards to the protocol for WILD, I am a bit all over the map. As you probably know Raduga recommends getting up after 6 hours, getting a drink of water, reading the protocol, and then going back to bed. He basically recommends the standard WBTB proposed by Laberge, although he allows for a greater window of time (3-50 minutes). Next the auto-suggestion should be started to remember to stay still upon wakening. _I honestly haven't tried this yet_, but perhaps I would have much greater success not moving upon awakening if I did. Occasionally I will awake briefly and start to recite the phrase as I fall back asleep but I have yet to try it with a full WBTB. I find that remembering to stay still is the greatest challenge by far with the technique (vs. the technique not working when I remember to do it). 

*Instead, if I am going to get out of bed to use the bathroom or whatever, when I go back to bed I typically attempt a standard WILD technique where I pick a mental anchor and try to maintain consciousness as I fall asleep*. That way if I fail, I always have the phase technique as a backup for later in the morning. LaBerge reports a 20 fold increase in success when doing a WBTB. That is pretty massive. I would agree that I have more success (with lucid dreaming in general) when actually doing a proper WBTB where my mind is forced to become more active doing something such as reading, etc.  

I am not totally sure why WBTB is needed for Raduga's technique. _Is it related to remembering to staying still upon awakening? Does it increase the likelihood of the technique working when attempting it? Or, does it simply increase the experience when you become lucid?_ All of this being said, I rarely do a proper WBTB because I have trouble with insomnia and I would rather fail at my WILD attempt by falling asleep or fail in general at becoming lucid than stay awake too long. I have experimented quite a bit with the WBTB time and I find that I get plenty of lucid dreams without it but it's certainly a powerful weapon. 

As for the length of time, I have spent years experimenting between 3-6 hours but as of yet I can't recommend anything specific for WBTB. Raduga recommends 6 hours and so do most others. I find the longer I wait the harder it is for me to get back to sleep which I why I am always experimenting with shorter intervals. I can't recommend a specific WILD technique since there are many others who are more skilled with it than I. I am still very much in the experimental phase as random techniques have worked for me at various times but nothing has been consistent. Most of my lucids come from MILD and DILD.

*In regards to the late morning phase... I would consider anything after 7 hours to be late morning, although after 8 there is really a sweet spot if I am tired enough.* I typically try to give myself 9-10 hours to sleep each night because an 8 hour window has not been sufficient for me in a long time, so it makes it easier to lucid if keep on this schedule. Many times I am not able to get this much and end up closer to 7-8 (or even 6 depending how well I slept), so this naturally creates a debt. Since I nap a lot this rarely allows me to take advantage of debts although they have been an awesome tool for me in times past and have allowed me to have extremely long and multiple lucids throughout the later hours of the morning. However, it's not something I do on purpose and can't speak to many recent experiences with it.

I have used an alarm for WBTB many times but find I wake up enough naturally that I don't need one at the moment. I will typically practice with an alarm for weeks at a time (in conjunction with other WILD techniques), but ultimately it starts to affect my sleep and I have to back off for awhile. This may be because I set multiple alarms at different REM intervals. I'd say for heavy sleepers an alarm is probably a must if you want the benefits of WBTB which as I said early shows a massive benefit for other lucid techniques. *I would recommend the app Chronology for iPhone. It will allow you to have a single beep go off at a specified interval. If you don't want to do a full WBTB and just wake up to try the Phase or some other technique without having to move to shut off the alarm, this is a great tool.* 

*The frozen still approach is what is recommended in many WILD techniques such as Lucidology 101. It basically says relax a bit, move into a position and stay there and don't move no matter what.* Then wait for sleep paralysis or some sign post that you are entering into the dream state. More modern techniques disregard this and say to move as much as you need to continue to be comfortable. You will fall asleep easier this way, although sometimes you fall asleep too easily. This approach works better for me for WILDs. Mzzch's sticky post really explains it best and why it doesn't make sense to stay frozen still. I only stay frozen still if I wake up from sleep and want to try to WILD immediately which is exactly what the phase recommends and is hence the same exact type of technique.

I think you are right on track with the cycling however it is well known that some individuals are more tactile, auditory, or visually oriented. That is why I say some techniques may be more geared towards some than others. Certainly in a dreaming state I can visually vividly. However, even in hypnagogia my imagery is very faint and fleeting. Not to say visualizing never works for me, just to say I think maybe because of our individual brain makeup some techniques might work easier for some than others. Certainly you are correct that if you are in the right state it makes all the difference. However I think it's entirely possible that you may get the roll sensation to work and then try to visualize something and get nothing. Have you ever been in hypnagogia and you were getting auditory sensations but no visuals? Or have you notice that when entering a dream you don't always get all sense immediately? Maybe you hear voices but no visuals? I think it's the same with the Phase. You are able to get a grasp on one dream sense and you run with it even though you don't have a grasp on all of them. I think this is why cycling is important. I also believe it keeps your mind focused since if you start to concentrate of your physical surroundings you are likely to lose the state you are in.

I have read Thomas Yusckak's book and tried his protocol, but supplements don't mix well with me. 

Sorry this is so long but I wanted to touch on all your questions.

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## Kaan

Tank you very much for your answers. 

About hearing voices, this is something I can easily produce "random voices saying random sentences" when I am near to fall asleep (but I nearly always finish by loosing consciousness), I just have to "try to listen to the voices" and soon it begins. 
I can do it at bedtime (which is useless) or at a WBTB.
For example I read a book until I feel I could fall asleep in seconds, then I turn the light off and try to focus on the voices and random voices at random volume level start to say random short sentences.

So far, I have not been able to WILD from this states cause each time a voice goes off a little bit more loud and realistic than the other ones, it seams to surprise me and break the relaxation, wakes me up and prevent me from gently enter in a dream.. (the other issue is the N-REM barriers NFri evoked in some posts on the forum) 
*BUT, I am pretty sure I could use this phenomenon as kind of check point*, I mean a a clue on where I am within the Sleeping process, and from that temporal check point, If I had the good timing information I could use for example a certain delayed auto snooze alarm (My Gymboss Minimax for example) to bring me back from wherever I am (slow sleep or REM) on a particular moment from which I could easily WILD/DEILD in a minute. 

What I just miss is EEG monitoring, and a lot of tries.
I could do it without EEG but still with a bunch of tries anyway. 

By the way I am not sure to remember that Raduga speaks about Auditory hallucinations in his book.

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## kingofhypocrites

Sometimes loud voices jolt me awake but not often. I am not sure if it is the volume of the voice or just a zooming out affect as I awake and the sounds dissipates. Not sure how to explain that. If I am hearing sounds I am usually almost guaranteed to have a WILD. I will start to focus on passively observing imagery and then step into one of the images as soon as it's possible. I then try to activate my other dreams senses until the dream becomes solid.

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