# Off-Topic Discussion > Extended Discussion >  >  Low Self Esteem

## voidofform

. .

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## themindsi

try looking at it from a psychological point of view.  you say 'suffer' like you think they're making it up, or it's not real suffering.  Read some studies on anorexia.

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## voidofform

. .

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## themindsi

that's common.

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## Rakkantekimusouka

OK, I'm sorry, void, but I don't understand your example or what you've said about linking narcissism with low self-esteem at all.. ::hrm:: 

*Warning: Graphic and possibly disturbing description; I'm not writing this to rant, but just to prove a point, or try to anyway...*

I have chronic depression, and when my bloodstream's not full of Lexopro, my self-loathing comes to the fore. I stare in a mirror and insult myself to my face. I often beat myself up, literally, bashing my head against the wall, or punching myself with closed fists, as well as holding my breath in hopes of one of these times suffocating myself. I clutch knives like stuffed animals; I've desperately tried to cut myself, but only having access to serated knives, have only ever succeeded in making small red lines in my arms. My inner pain is only then relieved by exhorting outer pain, and the more twisted and tight I feel inside, the more I have to compensate for it on the outside. I've not only wanted to die, but to kill myself -- kill the stupid, moronic, incompetent part of me.

...now isn't _that_ what having low self-esteem's more about?

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## themindsi

> _Originally posted by Muhjah_
> *OK, I'm sorry, void, but I don't understand your example or what you've said about linking narcissism with low self-esteem at all..
> 
> Warning: Graphic and possibly disturbing description; I'm not writing this to rant, but just to prove a point, or try to anyway...
> 
> I have chronic depression, and when my bloodstream's not full of Lexopro, my self-loathing comes to the fore. I stare in a mirror and insult myself to my face. I often beat myself up, literally, bashing my head against the wall, or punching myself with closed fists, as well as holding my breath in hopes of one of these times suffocating myself. I clutch knives like stuffed animals; I've desperately tried to cut myself, but only having access to serated knives, have only ever succeeded in making small red lines in my arms. My inner pain is only then relieved by exhorting outer pain, and the more twisted and tight I feel inside, the more I have to compensate for it on the outside. I've not only wanted to die, but to kill myself -- kill the stupid, moronic, incompetent part of me.
> 
> ...now isn't that what having low self-esteem's more about?*



That is also a form of low self esteem, however, that is caused by a disorder, in your case the chronic depression.  In my case, I am manic depressive and can sometimes feel like I am at the very top of the world, be on a manic high, and then suddenly crash very, VERY, hard into a deep disturbing depression where I'd love nothing more than to die.

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## TheTruth

> _Originally posted by Muhjah_
> *OK, I'm sorry, void, but I don't understand your example or what you've said about linking narcissism with low self-esteem at all..
> 
> Warning: Graphic and possibly disturbing description; I'm not writing this to rant, but just to prove a point, or try to anyway...
> 
> I have chronic depression, and when my bloodstream's not full of Lexopro, my self-loathing comes to the fore. I stare in a mirror and insult myself to my face. I often beat myself up, literally, bashing my head against the wall, or punching myself with closed fists, as well as holding my breath in hopes of one of these times suffocating myself. I clutch knives like stuffed animals; I've desperately tried to cut myself, but only having access to serated knives, have only ever succeeded in making small red lines in my arms. My inner pain is only then relieved by exhorting outer pain, and the more twisted and tight I feel inside, the more I have to compensate for it on the outside. I've not only wanted to die, but to kill myself -- kill the stupid, moronic, incompetent part of me.
> 
> ...now isn't that what having low self-esteem's more about?*



Like wow. Thats me...the knifes and the water thing. So what thats low self asteme> explain please?

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## Rakkantekimusouka

> _Originally posted by TheTruth_
> *Like wow. Thats me...the knifes and the water thing. So what thats low self esteem explain please?*



Well, having low self-esteem means you don't think very highly of yourself, even to the point of hating yourself -- which is why it makes no sense to say that a narcissist has low self-esteem, because a narcissist would have incredibly _high_ self-esteem; they love themselves. They have very low esteems about everyone _else_, however.

...

Well, that makes sense that you're a narcissist, void, as you don't even know what the hell you're talking about, yet you harbor some kind of disdain for these people who have a condition you don't even understand.   ::angry::

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## TheTruth

Thank you   :smiley:

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## Rakkantekimusouka

> _Originally posted by TheTruth_
> *Thank you **



No problem.  ::hug::

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## voidofform

. .

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## Rakkantekimusouka

> _Originally posted by voidofform_
> *oh crap. *i'm sorry.
> 
> i'm seeking professional help.*



It's OK...you didn't know. Everyone's allowed at least one free "d'oh!"  :tongue2:

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## themindsi

> _Originally posted by voidofform_
> *oh crap. *i'm sorry.
> 
> i'm seeking professional help.*



there's nothing wrong with therapy, but be cautious to the perscription drugs they are so ready to hand out to you!  i choose not to medicate, I don't like the way the drugs they gave me affected my personality to the point where I didn't feel like the same person anymore.

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## irishcream

I have a question:  When does it go from having a bad day, or a bad few weeks, to being really depressed and feeling worthless?
Can it be stopped, if you recognise it, and use the support of good friends?

I know for me, the last few weeks have been a test, on all levels.  If i didn't have one person who has supported me from the beginning, i would probably have plunged into a very horrible depression.
I've been what i call 'depressed' before, and i didn't like it.  I didn't need pills or anything, but it was a case of i 'never made the effort' with myself.
And now i have someone who i can really talk to about what's going on in my life, and i've learned that's how you can help to avoid sinking into that...i don't want to go there again.
Every time i think i'm on the edge of something i don't like, the place i don't need to be, they seem to be able to come and pull me back...stop me shutting them out.

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## TheTruth

I guess I've had a bad year. And my friends aren't people who I can talk to about stuff like that. umm...Then the self harm felt right. Now I'm starting to see people differently, in a bad way.  I can't think of anything else to put.

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## justme

I dont know much but maybe low selfestem comes from expecting too much from urself and not getting it?

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## Dangeruss

Sorry to resurrect so many old topics, guys. Just felt like inputting my own experience.





> I have a question: When does it go from having a bad day, or a bad few weeks, to being really depressed and feeling worthless?
> Can it be stopped, if you recognise it, and use the support of good friends?
> 
> I know for me, the last few weeks have been a test, on all levels. If i didn't have one person who has supported me from the beginning, i would probably have plunged into a very horrible depression.
> I've been what i call 'depressed' before, and i didn't like it. I didn't need pills or anything, but it was a case of i 'never made the effort' with myself.
> And now i have someone who i can really talk to about what's going on in my life, and i've learned that's how you can help to avoid sinking into that...i don't want to go there again.
> Every time i think i'm on the edge of something i don't like, the place i don't need to be, they seem to be able to come and pull me back...stop me shutting them out.[/b]



A bad turn of events can make me go into a depression, but oftentimes it's a culmination of things that comes out randomly. My girlfriend cheating on me might cause me to storm around the house smashing my head into walls and punching myself in the face close-fisted for a few days, but at the same time just being bored can have the same effects. Sure it can be stopped, I'm in control when I do it, but it's like I don't want it to stop. Sometimes I feel like pain or actively seeking dangerous things to do are the only things in my life that are real. I'm not terribly concerned about it because I never do irreversible damage to myself.

I have the exact opposite relationship with friends. When I'm depressed, I resent anyone showing any concern or affection for me. Even when I'm not depressed, when a female friend for instance says something like "I worry about you" or anything to that effect, I kind of sneer and feel an immediate but short repulsion for that person. I hate my parents sometimes because all they do is worry about me, and they don't even know I beat myself up.

Acting in a self-destructive way makes me feel better. It's kind of theraputic (sp?) for me. I intentionally screw myself over with work and school (by not studying even though I have a test coming up). Bashing myself in the head with the biggest book I can find can actually helps ease the pain. I never cut, which is strange but I'm glad I don't. Some kids I know punch walls when they're pissed off, but that's a totally different thing. They do it just because they're mad, and usually immediately regret it afterwards, especially if they break their hand. For me, if I headbutt a wall and I'm not overwhelmed by the pain, I do it again until I am. You see, in those moments when pain is all I can feel or think about, it's like I've escaped from reality. There is no past, present, or future. I don't exist. There is only pain and more pain, and that's a comforting thought. The come-down isn't unpleasant, if I hurt myself bad enough sometimes I feel better when the pain stops, more mellow, less depressed, or maybe more depressed but in a numb or beautiful way. Gosh, I don't make sense  :Oops: 



My question others with similar tendencies: Do you end up in relationships where the other person doesn't care about you? Do you feel a detachment from family, and especially from your past and past self? Do you ever think, for example, that if you ever met yourself from 6 months - 10 years ago you'd beat the shit out of him?

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## TheTruth

Well this is for all your questions - Yes.

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## Dangeruss

well, I'm glad I'm not the only one   ::o:

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## YourTheManNowDog

lifes a shit hole, they need to deal.

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## YourTheManNowDog

"chronic depression" is more bullshit just like ADD and every other fictitious condition designed for the lazy and those who dont want to work.

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## Universal Mind

> _Originally posted by Rakkantekimusouka+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rakkantekimusouka)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Well, having low self-esteem means you don't think very highly of yourself, even to the point of hating yourself -- which is why it makes no sense to say that a narcissist has low self-esteem, because a narcissist would have incredibly high self-esteem; they love themselves. They have very low esteems about everyone else, however.
> 
> ...
> ...



That is just flat out scientifically false.  Depression does result from neurochemical imbalances.  You have no Earthly clue what kinds of nightmares I went through earlier in life because of chemical imbalances.  The stuff is very real.  You might say, "It's in your head."  Well, I agree it IS in the head, therefore it IS.  The head is where it matters.  I also have ADD, and I know what kind of trouble I had paying attention to things that were not stimulating.  It was like absolutely not being able to lift something because it is too heavy.  We are not in an age where these things are speculations.  They are facts.  If you learn about the details of how the brain works, you will understand exactly what would have to happen at given neurochemical levels.  If you have a severe serotonin deficiency, you 100% definitely will experience severe depression.  That is how the brain works.  This is 2005, and we know how these things work.

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## YourTheManNowDog

most people who have depression whine. there is also sketchy evidence any such thing as ADD exists. they are LAZY and want a free ride.

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## Barbizzle

Can we ban him? ^

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## kimpossible

> _Originally posted by YourTheManNowDog_
> *\"chronic depression\" is more bullshit just like ADD and every other fictitious condition designed for the lazy and those who dont want to work.*



Issues with Serotonin Uptake are not "sketchy evidence", so I'm afraid I'll have to differ with you there.

There is an argument for "sucking it up and dealing with it" in the same fashion that there is an argument for "sucking it up and dealing with it" when we're talking about a broken leg or terminal cancer...  I can appreciate that (as someone that has never taken a day off from work sick in her life).  But let's go ahead and acknowledge that at least chronic depression is real and validated (and treatable!) in many instances.

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## Universal Mind

> _Originally posted by YourTheManNowDog_
> *most people who have depression whine. there is also sketchy evidence any such thing as ADD exists. they are LAZY and want a free ride.*



That is a generalization.  ADD is a reality, but it is overly diagnosed.  Some people might want attention or prescription speed or whatever, but it is illogical to lump every person with the diagnosis into that category.  I didn't get any free rides, and I didn't ask for any.  I just struggled my ass off to pay attention in class and very often literally could not do it.  I often do it in conversations now.  Some people are spacier than others, right?  Now take that spaciness to an extreme level.  Would such a concept be illogical?  No, it would be illogical to rule out the concept.  That concept is ADD.  The brain has mechanisms and chemicals involved in the attention process.  When there are deficiencies in those mechanisms and chemicals, attention deficits exist.  It would be a scientific bizarrity if they didn't. 

The fact that some people with depression whine is not evidence that it does not exist.  Scientific evidence says it exists, the experiences of the depressed say it exists, and my own experiences undoubtably say it exists.  Your chances of convincing me that I have never experienced clinical depression are about the same as the chances of your convincing me that I have never been to my home city of Jackson.  

My worst depression happened when I was 19.  I had no idea what was causing it, but I was overwhelmed with the impulse to jump off the building I was staying in.  I adamantly did not want to do it, but I was overwhelmed with the impulse to do it.  The feeling of wanting the depression to go away was like a religious experience of the negative kind.  I didn't even know that such depression was possible, especially when I could not identify an external cause.  It turned out to be a serotonin deficiency.  I was treated successfully with medication, and I ended up having one of the best summer's of my life.  I know what I experienced, and it was overwhelmingly real.  This is very common.  

Saying depression does not exist is like saying excitement doesn't exist or sexual arousal doesn't exist.  It is just blatantly false.  

What logic or scientific backup do you have to support your claims?  You are making some pretty extreme statements, and to do that, you should back it up with something other than, "They whine," or, "They are all just lazy."  Theories that contradict modern scientific knowledge require a great deal more than that.

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## YourTheManNowDog

yea man just type in google "ADD myth" you should get all kinds of hits.......i dont remember the stuff i read off hand. i remember reading that researchers have been trying and find some kind of gene for ADD and they keep saying they are "close to finding it"....but if you look deeper into it apparently the research is funded by the company that produced Ritalin......you have to look at who is funding research. im not sure if they have found the gene yet or not maybe they have.

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## Universal Mind

> _Originally posted by YourTheManNowDog_
> *yea man just type in google \"ADD myth\" you should get all kinds of hits.......i dont remember the stuff i read off hand. i remember reading that researchers have been trying and find some kind of gene for ADD and they keep saying they are \"close to finding it\"....but if you look deeper into it apparently the research is funded by the company that produced Ritalin......you have to look at who is funding research. im not sure if they have found the gene yet or not maybe they have.*



Yeh, there are some people saying ADD doesn't exist, but meanwhile, I know they are wrong.  It's like the people saying that there is a lack of scientific evidence that marijuana has medicinal value, saying that it doesn't increase appetite, doesn't relieve nausea, doesn't relieve feelings of sickness, and all kinds of other claims.  Meanwhile, I was stoned while watching those claims being made on the news as I was craving entire boxes of cereal and annihilating my nausea, feeling better when I got stoned when I was sick.  Do you know what I mean?  People who don't have ADD can talk back and forth all day about scientific back up and lack of it and whatever, but people who have ADD already know the truth.  

More importantly though, what evidence do you have that depression doesn't exist?  Why in the world would a deficiency of serotonin not cause depression when our understanding of serotonin guarantees that it would?  And again, I personally know what the truth is.  I know what my serotonin deficiency caused.  It was the worst nightmare of my life, and I didn't find out until far into it that it was a serotonin deficiency.

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## Ex Nine

Depression is a mind-body problem, when it affects both your outlook on life and your actual life. So, the way to combat it, I think, is to use both the mind and the body.

Psychologists may help your mind but they do squat for your body. In fact, they are likely to damage it if they push drugs on you. Only you can stand up for yourself in this case. Know that it is not wrong to leave them, if they are doing this. In fact standing up for yourself in this way shows much progress!

So exercise your mind and your body. Doing only one can cause a disequilibrium and create even more problems.  :smiley:  Eat good foods and do good physical activities, and read good books and do good mental activities.

Which activities are "good?" Whichever ones that agree with you.

That is the big step, in my eyes. There is no authority in existence that can possibly tell you definitively what is good for you and what is not good for you, except you, and only on an honest and personal level.

To illustrate, Winston Churchill was one of the happiest people his friends knew, not to mention a hero, who withstood perhaps the most agonizing strife a human being can take - watching his country being invaded while being its leader! And he was a fat smoker all the way to his death at 91 years old.

And he said, "Never give in never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense."

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## kimpossible

I suffer from SADD pretty horribly.

Instead of letting 'em medicate me, I just installed daylight tubes in massive quantities at work and at home.  In the winter, I just endeavor not to stray too far from 'em for any longer than I absolutely HAVE to.

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## Placebo

Well it's clear that there are people with a distinct problem, but IMO doctors are far too quick to jump to the ADD conclusion for kids in particular.
Often it's just a spoilt kid, or a bad lifestyle involving the wrong food at the wrong time.
I feel for those with a definite problem, but it should be investigated far more seriously before rushing for the ritalin.

I agree with Ex Nine on the tips & advice  :smiley:

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## Dangeruss

When I was young I knew a kid who was the man. He'd do anything if you told him he couldn't. Anyway, one day he goes and sees a doctor and and they put him on ritalin. He was never the same. He kind of sucked without ADD.

I think childhood is too early to prescribe adderol unless it's a SERIOUS issue. You can't give out amphetamines to every punkass kid who won't listen to his parents. You also can't medicate every kid with ADD for reasons exemplified above.

Sometimes when it's 2 am and I haven't started my homework yet I kick myself for not getting treated, but other than that I kind of enjoy having ADD. I feel like it's part of my personality. In order for me to start paying attention for more than a few seconds at a time I would have to stop being Danger-Russ.

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