# Sleep and Dreams > Research >  >  Cannabis and Pineal Activation

## tommo

Ok guys.  This study is going to need Cannabis smokers, I don't want to make or convince anyone to do something they wouldn't be doing otherwise.

BASIS OF REASONING FOR STUDY:  Occasionally about a year ago as I would fall asleep I would hear this EXTREMELY loud noise inside my head.  It is like a photon laser pulse or something, although it's not always exactly the same.  Basically it kept waking me up every single time it happened, one time it was so incredibly loud that I thought I would be deaf!  Even though it was only in my head, I was like "i can't hear something that loud and not go deaf."  I thought maybe it would have overloaded my hearing center in my brain or something.  Of course it didn't.

The thing is, when I started researching DMT, which is the molecule in our brains that makes us dream (or at the very least we have a very similar molecule to DMT) when people inhale it, right before they start tripping they hear a very loud vibrating, pulsing sound!  The descriptions of these on erowid and youtube (terrence mckenna) etc. are very similar to what I heard.

So I'm thinking that the brain will do this itself when it starts releasing heaps of DMT (or a similar molecule).  Now I haven't had this phenomenon for almost a year if not a bit more.  But I was smoking Cannabis for a few days in a row before bed and I know that after about 3 days it starts to make your dreams less vivid (depending on what type you smoke, I was smoking probably 70% Sativa (estimate)).

Now last night I didn't smoke at all, and didn't smoke all day either.  And I got this loud pulse noise as I was falling asleep again.  So I'm thinking that Cannabis had delayed my dreaming and I got the well known rebound effect.  This caused my brain to start releasing DMT a bit too early as I was ALSO getting to sleep about 3 hours later than usual.

So, if you are game.  Here is what you need to do.

Smoke Cannabis (preferably mostly Sativa, but anything will do) about 30 minutes before bedtime and if you smoke during the day already just do that as well.
If you have trouble falling asleep on Sativa just meditate a bit, you'll be gone in no time.  :smiley: 

Do that for 3 days and then on the 4th night do not smoke any Cannabis all day or night and get to sleep 2-3 hours after you usually do.  Just fall asleep normally, but pay attention to your falling asleep PROCESS, that is just keep a tiny bit of an eye on how relaxed you are getting, HI etc. don't even think about the study if you can.  You won't need to be listening for the noise lol  If it comes, you'll hear it.

Write your reports and send by PM to keep anonymity and so as you don't influence other people's results.  Thank you very much to all who participate.

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## tommo

I just found something very interesting which may add further weight to my hypothesis.  This guy stayed up for longer than usual also and he says he's pineal gland was also activated, although his experience is much more interesting than mine, and he used Caffeine and binaural beats also.

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=64283

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## SKA

I've allways wondered: Maybe Cannabis, Mushrooms, LSD, Peyote and similair Psychedelics somehow stimulate the human brain to release endogenous DMT in Tryppy amounts. It could explain why somehow most psychedelics have similair effects and properties.

Dreaming has been theorised to be caused too by endogenous DMT-releases. The fact that many MAOI- medication, herbs and plants induce longer, more vivid and well remembered dreams seems to support that. (curcuma/turmeric dreams, Banisteriopsis Caapi dreams, Peganum Harmala dreams, Passion Flower dreams) 

I wouldn't be surprised if I found out that there are MAOI-compounds in Mugwort, Calea Zacatechichi, Silene Capensis(African DreamRoot) and Salvia Divinorum too.

I think falling asleep on a small dose of Ayahuasca-tea, or on a smoked version of Ayahuasca called "Changa", would result in incredibly vivid, long, coherent, spiritually teaching and well remembered dreams. This might just be the perfect Oneirogen. As Brugmansia or Datura is often added in humble amounts to ayahuasca by shamans, I think this could also be done for an Oneirogenic Ayahuasca mix: A small dose of Ayahuasca Tea(preferably with a non-nauseating MAOI) with the known to be safe oneirogenic dose of Datura Inoxia: 3 ground seeds mixed with water and drank up.

Perhaps it would be EVEN better if I could make an ointment of a small dose of Ayahuasca and 3 ground Datura Inoxia seeds. This put on a bandaid could enter your bloodstream through your skin, gradually throughout the entire night. This would make it's effects more ensynched with our Dreaming periods. I don't know however if DMT and MAOIs can travel into the bloodstream through the skin however. I know Datura's alkaloids will. Need to dig deeper into this matter.

I think ayahuasca + Datura Inoxia would be the perfect Oneirogen. I'm in the middle of moving to my new house, but once I'm settled I should get more into this.

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## Idolfan

Unfortunately cannabis keeps me awake. So I might not be able to help you in your study...

All I can say is that it has never seemed to have had an effect on my dreaming, as far as I know.

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## SKA

Cannabis, next to Midazolam, is the only thing that can help me to sleep in case of Insomnia.

I'll participate in your experiment. Keeping test results anonymous so we won't influence eachother's results is really clever.

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## C-Fonz

I'm guessing your point here is to release DMT with the help of cannabis?

I am about 50 pages from finishing the book "DMT the spirit molecule" by Rick Strassman M.D.  It offers a lot of information about DMT and other psychedelics.  DMT is endogenous.  It has been said before and will be said again that there is no actual proof that the pineal gland releases DMT at night, not that it doesn't, but there has been little to no research on the matter. Though it is released at birth, death and deep meditation.

I don't think sleep deprivation and cannabis are the reasons he that man had such an experience

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## Kuhnada29

I know that smoking Cannabis increases melatonin production by 4,000%. This is scientifically proven. That is why your kind of sleepy and/or relaxed when you smoke. 

I think maybe DMT is produced after the melatonin is released as you sleep..when you have Hypnagogic Hallucinations, that's DMT at a low amount. 

I don't think you can experience a DMT hallucination while conscious unless you are extremely sleep deprived, take psychedelics, or meditate deeply.

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## C-Fonz

^^ To add onto that, melatonin levels are highest at 3am usually.

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## tommo

> Dreaming has been theorised to be caused too by endogenous DMT-releases. The fact that many MAOI- medication, herbs and plants induce longer, more vivid and well remembered dreams seems to support that. (curcuma/turmeric dreams, Banisteriopsis Caapi dreams, Peganum Harmala dreams, Passion Flower dreams) 
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if I found out that there are MAOI-compounds in Mugwort, Calea Zacatechichi, Silene Capensis(African DreamRoot) and Salvia Divinorum too.



You just reminded me I'm getting Silene Capensis, Calea Zacatechichi and Peganum Harmala seeds sometime in the next week!  So excited now haha  Also that's a good theory actually, never thought about it.





> I'm guessing your point here is to release DMT with the help of cannabis?



No.  Sorry I should have been more clear, I think I may have got confused myself a bit now lol  Cannabis induces meditative states (even if people don't know or think about it like that or even if they don't use it for meditation) and meditation is thought to release DMT.  Very deep meditation.  Which is when you get those AH! ephiphany moments.  So Cannabis should help that.

*BUT.*  My theory is also that if Cannabis reduces dreaming when smoked before sleep, which some people claim.  And that it also creates a rebound effect, where you dream more vividly when you don't smoke after a period of smoking.  This would mean that the rebound effect, coupled with staying up a few hours later than usual, would create an effect of DMT release before you actually fall asleep, as long as you don't fall asleep too quickly.





> I am about 50 pages from finishing the book "DMT the spirit molecule" by Rick Strassman M.D.  It offers a lot of information about DMT and other psychedelics.  DMT is endogenous.  It has been said before and will be said again that there is no actual proof that the pineal gland releases DMT at night, not that it doesn't, but there has been little to no research on the matter. Though it is released at birth, death and deep meditation.
> 
> I don't think sleep deprivation and cannabis are the reasons he that man had such an experience



I know it's not proven, but it's the best explanation we have.  So I'm just gonna go with it.  IMO it is probably true.  Even though DMT experiences and dreams aren't the same, I believe either we don't have N-N Dimethyltryptamine in our brains, but maybe it's something very similar, or maybe it just acts differently when we are asleep than when we are awake and fully conscious.





> I know that smoking Cannabis increases melatonin production by 4,000%. This is scientifically proven. That is why your kind of sleepy and/or relaxed when you smoke. 
> 
> I think maybe DMT is produced after the melatonin is released as you sleep..when you have Hypnagogic Hallucinations, that's DMT at a low amount. 
> 
> I don't think you can experience a DMT hallucination while conscious unless you are extremely sleep deprived, take psychedelics, or meditate deeply.



Probably true, but I think also maybe schizophrenia is in fact caused by DMT release during the day.  The stories of patients with schizophrenia sound very similar to dreams.  It has already been studied that this could be the case, they're dreaming during the day.  So if DMT causes dreams....
But anyway, I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me here so I'm just gonna say it anyway....  As you said, you don't think you can release DMT unless meditating, sleep deprived or taking psychedelics.  Well this is what I'm thinking.  Meditation is similar to falling asleep, but in meditation you don't fall asleep fully.  IMO it's like trying to get as asleep as you can without falling asleep lol  Of course there's more differences but it's similar.  Coupled with the rebound effect from Cannabis that some people get, would be sort of like sleep deprivation.  Your pineal gland is just waiting to release more DMT, so it does it before you fully fall asleep.

I know this sounds like a long stretch, but it's just a theory I want to try out.  To see if anyone else gets what I had.  And I'll keep testing it myself too.

Ok so anyone else wanna put their hand up yet?
So far we have one volunteer  ::lol::

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## C-Fonz

> No.  Sorry I should have been more clear, I think I may have got confused myself a bit now lol  Cannabis induces meditative states (even if people don't know or think about it like that or even if they don't use it for meditation) and meditation is thought to release DMT.  Very deep meditation.  Which is when you get those AH! ephiphany moments.  So Cannabis should help that.



Ah yes that makes a lot more sense now haha.  I see so its more of an aid for deeper meditation.  And about your schizophrenia comment, I really think you would enjoy the book DMT: The Spirit Molecule.  The author is in line with your thinking in a lot of different aspects.  He believes the pineal has a wall that only deteriorates under heavy stress releasing DMT in times like birth death and near death experiences.  He didn't directly state it but I assumed he thought schizophrenics actually have weakened walls in their pineal and release more endogenous DMT which leads to their psychosis.

Personally I think the Pineal is your soul and connection to the universe, maybe schizophrenics aren't truly the handicapped ones.  They are in touch with two realities, of which our reality has no understanding.

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## tommo

> Personally I think the Pineal is your soul and connection to the universe, maybe schizophrenics aren't truly the handicapped ones. They are in touch with two realities, of which our reality has no understanding.



Yes I've thought that too before.  But I got my ass flamed off for saying it lol
I just can't help but think how similar the experiences are.  Also I read a study about how in 3rd world countries in the tribes and such, people recover from schizophrenia much quicker and have breakdowns later on with less frequency than in 1st world countries!  This is because it isn't looked down upon so to speak.  For instance when my auntie had a schizophrenic breakdown, she hasn't talked about it once with anybody, since she got out of hospital.  In these tribes though, they talk about it and are encouraged to say what they think about it.  Which means less stress and therefore less chances of becoming schizophrenic again.  And here we just prescribe mind numbing drugs like Haldol so the person doesn't even have a chance to work through whatever has caused it.  So it just comes back later on.

But anyway, yeah I might read the book but I'm waiting for the movie to come out.  Already got some book going and the movie should be out soon so I thought I'd just wait.

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## C-Fonz

Haha I just might get flamed too.  It is such a complex disorder and no one really know much about it, I find it sad that people refuse to believe that there is something beyond our 5 senses that we cannot perceive.  

And holy shit I had no idea there was a movie!

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## CanceledCzech

I can't really smoke weed anymore because every time I do I have a minor psychidelic experience. Like an extremely low level shrooms trip, minis the visuals. I feel and sort of know things on a different level. To say the least, what I feel is terrifying, but it it very revealing.

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## smoke_1966

[quote=HaRd_WiReD;1222440]I know that smoking Cannabis increases melatonin production by 4,000%. 

ok i might have some insight on this, heres what i know im usually a daily 2 joint smoker(slightly more on weekends) have been for years.

when i joined Dreamviews in 2006 was the first time in like 10 + yrs that i completely stopped smoking,that lasted about 6 months ,ive recently stopped again about 2 weeks ago (wich is why i am back here).

for me its like this,when i smoked i had absolutely no dream recall at all  ever.

when i stopped,by day 2  i have wicked dream recall ,at least 3 a night.

isnt melatonin suppose to help vividness and recall? if so i dont think cannabis would be a good releaser of melatonin (if that makes sense)

Rookie dreamweaver   ::banana::

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## tommo

It depends what type you're smoking.  Apparently strains with higher levels of delta* 8* thc (not the normal delta 9 thc) actually increases dreaming.

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## Kuhnada29

> Meditation is similar to falling asleep, but in meditation you don't fall asleep fully.  IMO it's like trying to get as asleep as you can without falling asleep lol



..yea man, you have no idea what meditation is. Meditation has NOTHING to do with falling asleep. It's a state of mind you achieve. Not to sound like a prick, but yea, meditation isn't falling asleep. Actually it's the opposite, your trying to be MORE aware. 






> Of course there's more differences but it's similar



wut?

The only reason why people get skitzo is because they can't handle what they discovered. It has nothing to do with DMT. If you put a hardcore atheist on salvia and he finds out that there really is no death, and the real truth is that there is only one mind...a collective unconscious. That person is going to lose it. 

Look how sober people act when you explain or discuss things like this. They get hella angry because your challenging their belief system. 

There is a thin line between reality and insanity/truth. Psychedelics push you across that line and bring you back. You just have to be mentally prepared for it. They go insane because they realize their whole life they've been lied to.

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## Kuhnada29

> isnt melatonin suppose to help vividness and recall? if so i dont think cannabis would be a good release of melatonin (if that makes sense)



The reason why your dream recall probably fucked up after smoking is because you smoked too much. Not that it's a bad thing since you can't overdose on it, but it's the same way with melatonin. If you take too much melatonin you won't have good dream recall, if you even remember anything at all. It's actually counter-productive.

Weed and melatonin are substances that have like reverse tolerance or something. The less you take the better the effects.


For dream recall and increased awareness, memory,  and attention, you only need about .3 to .5 milligrams of melatonin, anything higher than 5.0 milligrams and it's only going to make you extra-tired, groggy, etc. thus no dream recall. I'm thinking even 5 milligrams is WAY too much. The best effects are somewhere between .3 and .5 milligrams. 

Try only taking a few small hits of weed. If even that much. I'd say try just taking a medium size hit of weed..when you feel a little buzz, just that subtle tiredness go to sleep.  

The pineal gland only releases something like .3 milligrams of melatonin when you sleep.      

.6 milligrams of melatonin seems to be a perfect dose.

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## tommo

> ..yea man, you have no idea what meditation is. Meditation has NOTHING to do with falling asleep. It's a state of mind you achieve. Not to sound like a prick, but yea, meditation isn't falling asleep. Actually it's the opposite, your trying to be MORE aware.



Um, it ENTIRELY depends on what type of meditation you do.  Meditation strictly is just 'being'.  Another type would be getting in to a relaxed state and thinking about some philosophical thing.  Another type is just being relaxed.  Another type is trying to open chakras or whatever.  There's probably 50 different ways to meditate.  You can't say that a person isn't meditating, that's the most ignorant thing you could say.

Anyway, to clarify my point, what I meant was, that when you meditate, in any case, you become extremely relaxed.  Just like when you fall asleep.  It is *supposed* that DMT is released in deep meditation.  Just like it is *supposed* to do when you fall asleep.  The only difference to me is that when you are meditating you don't have the mind set that you're going to fall asleep, you have the mind set of becoming relaxed and just being.  The relaxed state is what makes you more aware, you don't have to be hyper, or not relaxed, to be more aware.





> The only reason why people get skitzo is because they can't handle what they discovered. It has nothing to do with DMT. If you put a hardcore atheist on salvia and he finds out that there really is no death, and the real truth is that there is only one mind...a collective unconscious. That person is going to lose it. 
> 
> Look how sober people act when you explain or discuss things like this. They get hella angry because your challenging their belief system. 
> 
> There is a thin line between reality and insanity/truth. Psychedelics push you across that line and bring you back. You just have to be mentally prepared for it. They go insane because they realize their whole life they've been lied to.



You completely misunderstood what I've been saying.  I didn't say DMT makes you schizophrenic.  I think it is in fact the opposite.  I think it could cure schizophrenia.  (Some people say you can't cure it but I believe that's just a scam to get people to keep taking the drugs they give you).  What I was saying is that DMT produces a schizophrenia like state.  In that you can't tell that the hallucinations aren't real.  More things too but cbf thinking right now.
I disagree with the atheist thing though.  You can't just group people together and say these people will have a harder time coming to terms with this and that.  Real atheists adhere to science anyway and science has proven that we are all one, so if anything, people who believe that a god created them all and everyone is individual and we are the only conscious animals would have a harder time coming to terms with what they learn.

I see many reports on Erowid from religious people (excluding Buddhism, which states that we are all one etc.) who claim to have realised that we are all god or created by god.  They misinterpret the ego death as them being god or everyone having a collective unconscious.  Which of course is because of their belief system.  But of course this won't happen to all of them, and many will realise there is no god.





> The reason why your dream recall probably fucked up after smoking is because you smoked too much. Not that it's a bad thing since you can't overdose on it, but it's the same way with melatonin. If you take too much melatonin you won't have good dream recall, if you even remember anything at all. It's actually counter-productive.
> 
> Weed and melatonin are substances that have like reverse tolerance or something. The less you take the better the effects.
> 
> Try only taking a few small hits of weed. If even that much. I'd say try just taking a medium size hit of weed..when you feel a little buzz, just that subtle tiredness go to sleep.



Wrong again.  I smoke maximum 4 _small_ hits.  I barely get high.  Because I don't like being way too high anymore after a few bad experiences.  So I don't think it had anything to do with that but you're arguing based on nothing, I have no idea why.  The point of this thread is to see if this happens to other people.  You're arguing before I even get the results.

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## C-Fonz

> wut?
> 
> The only reason why people get skitzo is because they can't handle what they discovered. It has nothing to do with DMT. If you put a hardcore atheist on salvia and he finds out that there really is no death, and the real truth is that there is only one mind...a collective unconscious. That person is going to lose it. 
> 
> Look how sober people act when you explain or discuss things like this. They get hella angry because your challenging their belief system. 
> 
> There is a thin line between reality and insanity/truth. Psychedelics push you across that line and bring you back. You just have to be mentally prepared for it. They go insane because they realize their whole life they've been lied to.



You don't just "get skitzo" mental disorders aren't STD's.  How can you tell us that DMT has nothing to do with schizophrenia?   Both subjects are little known but still have relevance.  Taking psychedelics will not make you schizophrenic because you believe your hallucinations, they might however make your symptoms appear if you already are schizophrenic.

No one will go insane because they think they have been lied to.  The interpretation is subjective.  Christians might believe they are with God.  Atheists might just believe they are on a trip.  You can't be lied to if no one knows the truth.

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## Kuhnada29

C-Fonz you are right

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## tommo

Yes he is 'mostly' right.  The only thing I might add is that even though you won't become schizophrenic from taking hallucinogens, you might get HPPD.  Hallucinogen Perception Persistence Disorder.  This is usually (IMO) caused by people being told they could turn schizophrenic after even one time.  So when the effects don't go away instantly after they come down they might think "am I gonna be like this forever?"  Then they might get anxious which just prolongs the coming down process.  Sometimes slight hallucinations can last for months.  Even with weed I've had the spaced out feeling and anxiousness last for months afterward.  But now I know I was being lied to and it doesn't happen anymore.

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## Beeyahoi

> It has been said before and will be said again that there is no actual proof that the pineal gland releases DMT at night



It has however been shown that we have higher amounts of DMT in our bodies at night, specifically around 3 a.m.  This coincides with our melatonin levels, and melatonin is produced in the Pineal.

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## C-Fonz

> It has however been shown that we have higher amounts of DMT in our bodies at night, specifically around 3 a.m.  This coincides with our melatonin levels, and melatonin is produced in the Pineal.



Hmmm...do you have an article I can read about this?

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## Beeyahoi

> Hmmm...do you have an article I can read about this?



No, but you do.  It's in one of the first few chapters of "DMT: The Spirit Molecule".

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## C-Fonz

^^lol really? I missed it then I only remember about the melatonin levels.

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## abner

smoking is all about to be calm and sleepy..its a good article..

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## tommo

What a strange, strange bot....

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## Spliph

This is by far the most interesting thread I've ever read.  ::D: 

Maybe I'll sum up my experiences with weed and dreams some day, but not tonight. Gotta get that sleep  ::D:

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## tommo

Thanks Spliph.  Look forward to hearing it.

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## Blackbag2003

im a daily smoker and would be glad to play my part

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## djonkoman

maybe I can help too, I normally smoke only once a week, but I was already planning on smoking friday, saturday is my normal smoking day and I have vacation next week so I could make it 4 days, but that will be with a small amount then(I like smoking with others far more)
but the time between smoking and sleeping will probably be a bit longer then 30 min.(especially when smoking with others since I have to drive home then and mostly eat something and watch some tv or a movie then), also I find it a bit of a waste to go sleeping so soon and miss part of the effect :tongue2: 

smoked weed will be my own harvest, outdoor and supposed to be 100%, or at least close to it, sativa

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## tommo

That's good that you know the type.
Remember, just PM me your results.

Thanks!

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## surealization

This is a pretty wicked thread. If your still needing some results I would be more than glad to help!?

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## Kuhnada29

There's no doubt in my mind that cannabis can induce wake-induced-lucid dreams ( refer to my thread above )

The only thing is you'll have to be SUPERHIGH to induce the HH...which won't happen unless your really really high.

If you smoke everyday or a lot, your more tolerant to weed so it won't work. You have to smoke when you haven't smoked in like a week or two..that way your tolerance is low. Or if you do smoke everyday, you'll have to find a way to get more high than you normally do ( maybe using hash oil or something )

But yea, i've had HH two times from being completely high off my ass. 

To the person who said something about skiztophrenia below.....the first time i got HH from weed, the anxiety and paranoia was through the roof.....i thought i was literally going insane and felt like i WAS skitzophrenic....in fact i was pretty sure I WAS insane. But it's only temporary. The second time i got HH from weed, i was still anxious/paranoid, but it was nowhere as near as intense as the first time. Your moving to the subconscious mind, and there's a lot of fear rooted there. But when you get accustomed to that altered-state, the paranoia and anxiety will fade. 

Just a small price to pay for finding your true, authentic self. The dream self.

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## tommo

> This is a pretty wicked thread. If your still needing some results I would be more than glad to help!?



Yep!  no one else has PM'ed me so far lol so don't worry if you cbf.

Majestic, I agree with that.  It's the paranoia from exploring new parts of your mind mostly.

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## surealization

No worrys man! I found the thread because i too was looking at the effects of weed and lucid dreaming. I've gone to bed pretty high ( especially last night ) for 4 days now so today is my non smoke and go to bed a few hours late day  :tongue2:  will pm results tomorrow. 
Peace

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## Kuhnada29

I think you'll be less likely to have HI if you've smoked 4 days in a row. It might work though, who knows

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## JDKendall

I will join your study here. Btw, I smoke every night, and always have strong HH/HI before falling asleep.

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## Kahiko

i dont know if this is said earlier but it resembles the exploding head syndrome. seriously Google it for more info

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