# Lucid Dreaming > General Lucid Discussion >  >  Is lucid dreaming satanic?

## vivianhawthorne

My mother and brother, both overbearing, religious, and nosey, both claim that by practicing lucid dreaming, I am opening myself to possession.  I don't see how knowing you're asleep is any more sinful than knowing you're awake, but wanted to hear your opinions. (Don't worry I'm not about to boycott lucid dreaming.  I just wanted to know...wish-3.jpg

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## DreamyBear

Dont you worry about anything like that. Anything like possesion is merely a state of hypnosis to one self if one happen to be "posessed". God and "bad" experiences will probably get to you, but there is nothing wich we cant learn something from. So go and lucid dream as much as you feel like. :smiley:

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## dutchraptor

It's not. Anyone who believes it is, is likely completely misinformed as to what lucid dreaming is. 

Since you mention satanic, I assume your family is christian. In that case lucid dreaming is especially natural, considering most of the prophets in christian stories communicated with god through dreams, many of them lucid.

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## cvdmehden

If you use the Bible as your example, you could easily argue that Lucid Dreaming is something practiced by the most devoted Christians. Not to lucid dream then, would be wrong. I have had interesting things happen when using the lucid state as a spiritual practice. Try praying in your dream, or talking to God, or entering heaven. If you do the latter, just remember to come back  :wink2:

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## KpuonyerNo4

They may have a point there though. Don't get addicted to dreaming to the point where you live in the dream more than you do in real life. But as for it being "satanic", I don't think so. Try to explain to them that it is merely dreaming with a different mindset, an aware mindset.

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## SinisterDezz

No.

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## TranquilityTrip

No.

There are many people who lucid dream naturally/accidentally some nights. I'd also be willing to bet that at least a few of the religious figures in Christianity and Judaism (at least the ones that verifiably existed) practiced lucid dreaming. It would likely be inevitable given their extreme interests with dreams and religious messages.

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## StephL

> If you use the Bible as your example, *you could easily argue* that Lucid Dreaming is *something practiced by the most devoted Christians*. Not to lucid dream then, would be wrong. I have had interesting things happen when using the lucid state as a spiritual practice. Try praying in your dream, or talking to God, or entering heaven. If you do the latter, just remember to come back



Uum. I really don't think, that this can be argued easily. But hey - feel free to convince me otherwise.
You needed actual passages for that - and when it comes to exegesis - I am pretty sure, the family could come up with passages indicating LDing falls under "occult practices" and "witchcraft". But then - it's also in the bible that an adulteress should be publicly stoned to death and other lovely things.
I am afraid, such things can be found more easily than prophets or whoever speaking clearly about LDing as opposed to just receiving messages from God.
It lessens credibility in a way, after all - see the outrage of fundamentalist Christians over the fact, that the movie-Noah does indeed get his messages in dreams and not like the bible says by a mighty voice from the heavens.
They see it as relativism.

As to you vivian - do you believe in Satan?
What exactly do you think, he is and can do?

Or do you just seek arguments for your family, while not buying into demons and the devil personally?

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## Sensei

Well... 

1) if you are a christian, it is impossible to be possessed. So no problem there. 
2) if lucid dreams are evil, than so are dreams. 
3) everyone (mostly when they were kids) has had a lucid dream, and not everyone is possessed.  :tongue2: 

Lucid dreaming was started by mostly people doing drugs (LSD), AP, and Buddhist monks, so people associate that with lucid dreaming, especially people like Robert Waggoner or Carlos Castaneda that associate it with something spiritual. I am an extremely conservative to what the Bible says (literal translation of the Bible), and iI am studying to be a pastor, I don't see anything in the Bible about it, and the bible says that if something isn't directly against it (stealing, sexual immorality, lying), than it is for the person to decide between themselves and God. I am married so I ran it by my wife of course.

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## opalwolf

No. You are still inside your body when you are lucid dreaming and there is absolutely no way something can possess you. It is 100% safe and many religious and spiritual people in the past have had lucid dreams. Just like you said - It is no more sinful to know when you are asleep than to know when you are awake. In fact, brainwaves during REM sleep are almost the same as brainwaves during waking life. So its almost the same as knowing when you are awake. Raising your awareness in general is a good thing and will have many benefits to your life. You may start to notice that the people around you seem to be in a daze while you are the only one noticing the world around you. Lucid dreaming is truly a blessing, I learned to lucid dream in order to fight the demons that used to haunt my dreams, and it was the only way i was able to make them go away. I even had a dream while I was in college that I walked to the abandoned house that was on the street where I grew up. There was a demon standing in the doorway, and I killed it. I haven't encountered a demon in my dreams ever since.

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## Sensei

> If you use the Bible as your example, you could easily argue that Lucid Dreaming is something practiced by the most devoted Christians. Not to lucid dream then, would be wrong. I have had interesting things happen when using the lucid state as a spiritual practice. Try praying in your dream, or talking to God, or entering heaven. If you do the latter, just remember to come back



Que? No... not really... Taking the Bible as an example, trying to find your own way to God other than Jesus is heresy. :/

Dreams are mentioned in the Bible, and while they may have been lucid dreams, that doesn't mean that you are closer to spiritual in a dream than waking. God talked to more people when they were awake than asleep. So all that God talking to people in dreams shows is that he is freaking boss and can talk to people however he wants, dreams, lightning, fire, or donkeys. this doesn't mean that I am going to go and ride donkeys trying to talk to God.

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## cvdmehden

Yeah, "easily argue" was a bad choice of words.  :smiley: 

I was actually referring to this passage from 2 Cor 12...





> (1) Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. (2) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years agowhether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knowssuch a man was caught up to the third heaven. (3) And I know how such a manwhether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows (4) was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. (5) On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses. (6) For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me.



Whether or not his was an LD or OBE or something else entirely could be debated, but I've always taken it as something "within the realm" of LDs. In this light, could LDing be a tool for deeper communion with God? Not a way or a means outside of Christ, but as a way perhaps opened by Christ? Reading Waggoner's book, we see long exposure to LDing begin to direct us toward spiritual places. Is the Holy Spirit with us while we dream? Can He guide us within our dreams to places or experiences or wisdom that is easier attained in dreaming than in waking? Thoughts to explore...

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## Tygar

> My mother and brother, both overbearing, religious, and nosey, both claim that by practicing lucid dreaming, I am opening myself to possession.  I don't see how knowing you're asleep is any more sinful than knowing you're awake, but wanted to hear your opinions. (Don't worry I'm not about to boycott lucid dreaming.  I just wanted to know...wish-3.jpg



I’m going to play devil’s advocate with this one (pardon the play on words).

I would need you to better define “Satanic”.  

Do I believe you will be possessed by a demon like from the movie “The Exorcist”?  No I don’t believe that is possible.

Do I believe you are leaving yourself open to demonic powers?  I guess it depends on how you define it.  
Is Las Vegas Satanic?  
Are over 21 dance clubs Satanic?  
Is the internet Satanic?

In a way all of the above listed examples are places where there is a strong temptation to sin (by Christian standards).  Does everyone who goes to Vegas, goes to an over 21 dance club, or who uses the internet sinning?  Definitely not.  Is there major temptation to sin at all of these places?  Most certainly.  

Lucid dream are very much like the above mentioned places: Lots of fun, but potentially full of temptation.  A lucid dream is a place where you do anything you want, and it is seemingly consequence free.  A lucid dream looks and feel as realistic as real life. One issue I have had in my past lucid dreams is that I often lose control and go after sexual contact with dream characters, which is something I would never do in real life.  I am married.  These DCs are rarely images of my wife.  They are often just random female DCs.  Am I sinning if I have sexual contact with a DC?  Or is it not sinning because the DC isn’t anything more than a figment of my imagination?  Am I “lusting” after the DC?

The same could go for killing DCs.  While you are not murdering a real human being, what is your attitude at the time?  How much do you enjoy the carnage?  

Honestly I can’t answer these questions.  But if I follow the rule “Don’t do anything you wouldn’t tell your mother about” than I am most certainly doing something I shouldn’t.

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## Sensei

> Yeah, "easily argue" was a bad choice of words. 
> 
> I was actually referring to this passage from 2 Cor 12...
> 
> Whether or not his was an LD or OBE or something else entirely could be debated, but I've always taken it as something "within the realm" of LDs. In this light, could LDing be a tool for deeper communion with God? Not a way or a means outside of Christ, but as a way perhaps opened by Christ? Reading Waggoner's book, we see long exposure to LDing begin to direct us toward spiritual places. Is the Holy Spirit with us while we dream? Can He guide us within our dreams to places or experiences or wisdom that is easier attained in dreaming than in waking? Thoughts to explore...



"whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know"
That would show that it wasn't an LD 100%. LDing is knowing that you are dreaming when you are in a dream. :/

The Holy Spirit is with us when we dream, since it is "within us". He could, but probably not. God is not limited to dimensions. LDing doesn't take us to "spiritual places" it takes us to what we as humans view the spiritual as, "the unknown". Any dimension that we don't understand, we deem spiritual, which is strange, because looking back at that text.
"whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know"
We see that spiritual is actually closer to physical than we realize. Adam had a Spiritual and Physical part to his body, the spiritual died. The new earth will be physical and spiritual. 

Just because dreams are ethereal and go close to what we think of as spiritual, does not mean that they are. 

Interesting topic Cvdmehden, you sound like you know at least some Bible. You a Christian?

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## cvdmehden

> "whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know"
> That would show that it wasn't an LD 100%. LDing is knowing that you are dreaming when you are in a dream. :/



Bear in mind, that was Paul commenting on the man's journey. The man may have been fully lucid. Paul doesn't know if the man's physical body ascended or his spiritual body. We aren't told by the man, but from similar experiences I've had, I suspect the man would know he was "dreaming." 

Because the term "lucid dreaming" is a fairly recent term, I wonder about other dreams in the Bible. Back then, for all we know, lucid dreams were the norm. The people we read about in the Bible certainly had a more dynamic experience of spirituality (visions, healings, angels, demons, etc), maybe the lucid state of consciousness was commonplace to them. I don't know. Just free-form speculation now  :wink2:

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## Sensei

> Bear in mind, that was Paul commenting on the man's journey. The man may have been fully lucid. Paul doesn't know if the man's physical body ascended or his spiritual body. We aren't told by the man, but from similar experiences I've had, I suspect the man would know he was "dreaming." 
> 
> Because the term "lucid dreaming" is a fairly recent term, I wonder about other dreams in the Bible. Back then, for all we know, lucid dreams were the norm. The people we read about in the Bible certainly had a more dynamic experience of spirituality (visions, healings, angels, demons, etc), maybe the lucid state of consciousness was commonplace to them. I don't know. Just free-form speculation now



1) "the man" was Paul.

2) I have wondered before if the ability to know whether or not we were in a dream is something that we have lost over the ages because of losses in DNA over the centuries and that some people may still have it. I don't know though, because those people would be born with it, but all naturals have a time that they started and progressed. Normally going from 1/month to 1/week to 1/night to multiple a night.

@Tygar and everyone
Titus 1:15
Kind of goes well with Tygar's point.

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## Goldenspark

> My mother and brother, both overbearing, religious, and nosey, both claim that by practicing lucid dreaming, I am opening myself to possession.  I don't see how knowing you're asleep is any more sinful than knowing you're awake, but wanted to hear your opinions. (Don't worry I'm not about to boycott lucid dreaming.  I just wanted to know...wish-3.jpg



I guess in the loosest sense, if you LD you could be open to obsession, which might be seen as a form of posession.

I take it you are not religious like they are?
Much as it is ideal to be able to talk to loved ones about lucid dreaming, it sounds like they will be difficult to convince of the positive aspects.

Are they actually saying it's sinful?
I can't see why, until you start describing what you are doing while you LD. If God is all seeing, won't he see your dreams just as he sees your waking life (if you believe that)?

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## Hummer

vivianhawthorne--
Rather the opposite. You are much more likely to be possessed by some Dark Side force without lucidity. With it you can fend it off. 

My guess your mother and brother may want you open to such possession. 

But your lack to response to all this this interest in your dilemma, without any response from you, makes me suspicious about your motives, frankly.

Hummer

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## Sensei

Also, this all depends on your POV. As a christian that believes in the Holy Spirit in you, you cannot be possessed. For Hummer's belief, anyone can be taken by dark forces. And for another "good vs evil" standpoint, tygar pointed out that LDing isn't inherently good or bad. It is how you use it. New Jedi Order like. :tongue2: 

I can say this though, know what you believe. If you believe something to be good.Do it, bad don't do it. Something nuetral, use it in a way for good. If you are honestly seeking the truth you will find it.

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## Nailler

Lucid Dreaming and Christianity: Entering the Light | dream studies portal

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## StephL

> I am an extremely conservative to what the Bible says (literal translation of the Bible), and I am studying to be a pastor, I don't see anything in the Bible about it, and the bible says that if something isn't directly against it (stealing, sexual immorality, lying), than it is for the person to decide between themselves and God. I am married so I ran it by my wife of course.



Is that you Brandon?!
Fascinating - maybe we will actually have the opportunity to make something of this topic  - not only do we have a declared Christian chiming in - but a biblical literalist, who is about to dedicate his life to Christianity - no less!
What a marvellous opportunity - at least you are not a wishi-washi coffehouse Christian, who doesn't quite know, what she believes.

*Is Lucid Dreaming Satanic?*

This question is open to numerous interpretations besides possession - but first I'd like to take your arguments on faith level:





> 1) if you are a christian, it is impossible to be possessed. So no problem there.



That's where you leave your literal ground - the bible does not explicitly state whether a Christian can be possessed by a daemon or not. This even from sources, which then go on to argue, why related biblical truths would _point_ that way:





> *While the Bible does not explicitly state whether a Christian can be possessed by a demon..*
> Can a Christian be demon-possessed? That question produces *lots of disagreement among theologians*. 
> Most would say that a believer *probably* *won't be totally possessed*, but might experience some form of oppression (or very strong influence) by demons. The Bible does describe followers of God coming under the influence of evil spirits—King Saul disobeyed God's instruction, and the Bible says, "The Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit … tormented him" (1 Samuel 16:14, NIV). Judas, the disciple who betrayed Jesus, was possessed by Satan (Luke 22:3). And an evil spirit influenced Ananias and Sapphira, husband and wife, to lie to their fellow Christians and to God (Acts 5), leading to their deaths.



So - I challenge you as a biblical literalist to show me the passage, where the bible says, what you seem to claim as being general Christian dogma - go ahead! Maybe you are the first to find such a thing..

Daemonic possessions have supposedly happened again and again in Christian communities. The victims were - at least nominally - Christians too. Was their faith too weak? If a man accepts the Christ, does this grant him immunity until the end of his life? What if he wavers in his belief, even for 5 minutes? Even in his dreams?

I get it you are no Catholic - so I can spare myself the argumentation from that side - but also in Protestantism - this is a much debated question, and Christianity as a whole is far from agreeing with you there.
I could even postulate, that weak and wavering Christians are a much worthier prize to possess, since they count for more in the devil's war/game with God.






> 2) if lucid dreams are evil, than so are dreams.



No. That is complete non sequitur.
If doing magic in real life is evil - then so is real life.
Do you get my point?

But lets take a viewpoint besides pure logic:

It is questionable if "in dreams begin responsibilities". Most people would deny this, since we see the (non-lucid) dreamer more as a helpless puppet, driven by unconscious desires and fears, or by the fading impressions of his recent experiences. Such a dreamer does not control the content of his dreams, nor his own actions with which he responds to it. He clearly has severely diminished or no moral agency, so neither we nor - I would presume - God will attach blame to him, no matter what depraved images will confront the sleeper. But everything changes as soon as the dreamer becomes conscious.
An analogy would be the difference between innocent children and responsible adults, between instinct driven animals and deliberating humans. 
*Ethical responsibility or sin starts with consciousness.* Even more, in lucid dreams *our ability to sin is augmented by the temptation of power*, the power to transgress our usual limitation and boundaries, unobserved and unpunished. 
Sure, it's not reality, so it's not really murder, not really adultery - but are you sure it's completely without consequences? *Doesn't it change us*, don't we talk about it with others in this forum, does our life stay the same? 
For many people here it's *clearly about gaining godlike powers, consciously, and about revelling in the experience.* 






> 3) everyone (mostly when they were kids) has had a lucid dream, and not everyone is possessed.



Well - that doesn't prove anything.
Could be this is, because the devil doesn't much care for children, could be that the more you LD - the higher the risk.
Maybe only really high level lucids open the boundary, the complete conscious realization, and what most children do is not quite the same.


*What is more interesting - you seem to believe, that a non Christian can be possessed by the devil.
I find this absolutely ludicrous - same as the belief in Satan in the first place.
*






> Lucid dreaming was started by mostly people doing drugs (LSD), AP, and Buddhist monks, so people associate that with lucid dreaming, especially people like Robert Waggoner or Carlos Castaneda that associate it with *something spiritual.*



Now this is nice - you mention Castaneda _spontaneously_ - perfect example of how LDing is explicitly categorized as *Witchcraft/Sorcery*.
So there you go - that doesn't help your argument, I don't think.
You mentioned heresy above - and anything "spiritual" other than the trinity plus for Catholics Mary and the Saints - is occult practice and black magic - we don't need Castaneda to spell it out.
It is widely held, esp. by our beyond dreamers - that there is a potential to contact dead people.
Just one example, of how that certainly counts - same with shared dreaming and same with contacting spiritual entities. 
Both of which are supposedly practised by Tibetan monks and Waggoner as well.





> There are several references to witchcraft in the Bible that strongly condemn such practices. For example, Deuteronomy 18:11-12 condemns anyone who "..casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you", and Exodus 22:18 states "Do not allow a sorceress to live".
> Some adherents of near-east religions acted as mediums, channeling messages from *the dead* or from a *familiar spirit*. The Bible sometimes is translated as referring to "necromancer" and *"necromancy"* (Deuteronomy 18:11)









> Que? No... not really... Taking the Bible as an example, trying to find your own way to God other than Jesus is heresy. :/



What this implies, is that even a person living a saint-like life without committing anything, which is seen as sinning in Christianity - will end up in hell anyway, at least till the second coming.
Especially, if they heard of Christianity in some way.
What about the people, who never came in contact with it in the first place - all damned?
Why did not god almighty make sure, that the happy message of the messiah reaches all and every human, to make sure, they have a fair chance? 
Answer me - do they really burn in hell right now?
What a humanity-loving god - I am flabbergasted, got to say.






> I’m going to play devil’s advocate with this one (pardon the play on words).
> 
> Lucid dream are very much like the above mentioned places:* Lots of fun, but potentially full of temptation.*  A lucid dream is a place where you do anything you want, and it is seemingly consequence free.  A lucid dream looks and feel as realistic as real life. One issue I have had in my past lucid dreams is that I often lose control and *go after sexual contact with dream characters, which is something I would never do in real life.  I am married.  These DCs are rarely images of my wife.*  They are often just random female DCs.  Am I sinning if I have sexual contact with a DC?  Or is it not sinning because the DC isn’t anything more than a figment of my imagination?  Am I “lusting” after the DC?
> 
> The same could go for *killing DCs*.  While you are not murdering a real human being, *what is your attitude* at the time?  How much do you* enjoy the carnage*?



Exactly - great and honest post - which I hadn't seen yet while drafting this one - thanks!
Should a devout Christian not keep herself out of any situation, which represents heightened temptation to sin?
And do not forget, people - in Christianity - god supposedly watches and punishes even* thought crimes* - even lusting after _something other_ than your wife/husband.

Sensei - you keep reporting of how you had sex with your wife in your LDs - you are aware, that that wasn't your real wife whatsoever, aren't you??
At the very least you are indulging in *masturbation*, wouldn't you say?
Or is it only masturbation, if you "waste" your actual semen?

What has to be seriously considered is the *hubris bound to rear it's head and make you feel an equal of god* .
Think of your former user name, Sensei, and how you now denominate god as Boss - or of dutchraptor's guide as to how to become an LDing god - isn't that what we all indulge in in LDs?
And isn't that the ultimate sin in Christianity?
The first several commandments being about how you should worship and fear and obey your tyrant, and only him.
Who will get you anyway, if you don't, and then has the cheek to command, that you have to love him on top of that!




*To sum up the acute in-dream Satan and sin business:*

*Possession:*
It is not clear, if that could happen - but there are very many theologians, who propose it is possible - at least in some weaker form called "demonism" - they even got a word for it.

*Temptation:*
Conscious moral agency in the face of overwhelming temptation through power and autonomous LDing-associated hypersexuality.
Remember - your thoughts are not your private business - your god-tyranny registers everything.

Now to the most satanic of all - say you manage not to be possessed - say you behave like a saint in your LDs - there is this deciding point:

*Witchcraft/Necromancy:*
See above.


*But for the more realistic Christians - for whom the whole satanic business looks alien anyway - consider the following:*

*What you do in your lucid dreams influences the kind of person you are in real life.*
This starts by the above mentioned - being here on the forum - but why not look at it from a less harmless angle:
What if you habitually do blasphemy in dreams by feeling like a god, or lusting after DCs and having lots of sex with something other than your wife/husband, and fight and kill for fun - wouldn't after a while your brain be reprogrammed?
Neuroscience tells us, that the more often we use certain neural pathways - the more ingrained they become - habits form, which are hard to break, if and when the individual would consciously want to.

LDing with the above moral agency plus huge and abundant temptations must in the Christian worldview be seen as very dangerous.
At least, because it could make you a more sinful and worse person irl. And this down to the physical properties of the brain - what gets used, gets more fibres through which to fire - more power and hold.
So - even as a mild Protestant - it is nigh impossible to deny spill-over from LDing into waking life - even while you don't believe in the above fairy-tale Christianity.

*
Conclusion:*
*Yes - if you happen to try to be a devout Christian - you better leave your fingers off LDing!!*

So don't try to be one - it makes no sense - happy lucid dreams instead and to find a dogma free spirituality!  ::wink:: 


I look forward to arguments against my points everybody - and esp. Sensei as an almost professional.
Besides in this thread - please elucidate your views in the religion subforum for some change - seems as if there were mainly atheists over there.

And this is a good starting point:
http://www.dreamviews.com/religion-s...believers.html
Looking forward to your contribution - I really do!

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## Sensei

0_0

Yes, it is me StephL. Thank you for that loooooong post. I will try and get a post out this afternoon. Might have to wait until tomorrow though (bible study tonight I need to finish preparing for lol). 

You seem to know a lot of stuff about Christianity as a religion, but it is a faith remember. A little different than religions, but a lot different than what people think it is. 

I am not very big into debating (note, why I stay out of off topic), because I hate long posts, and 99% of the time all the good points are dismissed. I will make an acception this time since it is you, and it is about LDing.  :smiley:

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## Nailler

> For many people here it's clearly about gaining godlike powers, consciously, and about revelling in the experience.
> Looks quite sinful to me.



Other than for extreme Christians who believe we're born to suffer and nothing else, why would that be sinful?  

Personally, I find the idea that LDing opens the door to being possessed absurd on many levels, but if we draw the long bow and assume there really are such things as demons waiting to take possession of our bodies, wouldn't it be logical to assume that more awareness  would make one less susceptible?

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## MisakaMikoto

In my opinion calling lucid dreams satanic is same as you if you'd call dreams being satanic
Lucid Dreaming is simply dreaming with awareness that it's not a real life and it's just a dream

Actions you might take conscioussly in LD's might be sinful. For example:
- Practicing satanism (which would make ld's of yours satanic)
- Probatly Sex (as sinful as masturbation i think)
- Calling yourself god or making dc's think your god aka calling yourself a god or real god

Killing / hurting or doing inhuman things to DC's is same as playing game or watching movie in which you kill / hurt or do inhuman things to characters

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## StephL

Thank you Sensei - I really appreciate it!
Don't worry, when you answer - really no stress - eventually is completely fine!
As a literalist Christian pastor - you'll come across situations, where you will need some skills in debating anyway.
You know what? I have an idea - why not show your bible session buddies and your professors this thread, and ask them, what they think? At least the teachers must be able to scrutinize it from the top of their heads, I suppose - and they probably have the corresponding passages as well.
Then we would have it on some authority.
Maybe some of them even become members, if only to argue people out of LDing.
If an official okay should be given - maybe they would start to LD themselves!
smile.gif






> Other than for extreme Christians who believe we're born to suffer and nothing else, why would that be sinful?



Yes - that doesn't directly follow, the way I put it - I'll edit - can still be seen in your quote anyway.
Thing is - even if some of my points can be weakened or completely disregarded - there will be enough aspects left to answer the motion with yes. 





> Personally, I find the idea that LDing opens the door to being possessed absurd on many levels, but if we draw the long bow and assume there really are such things as demons waiting to take possession of our bodies, wouldn't it be logical to assume that more awareness  would make one less susceptible?



Not necessarily - you could pose it like that, and I see the inherent logic - but consider how many people have reported through history, that they have come in contact with spiritual entities exactly through LDing.
And with spiritual entities outside of the allowed ones in Christianity - I forgot to mention angels above.
So that would all have to be contact with daemons (often in disguise as something positive), and they clearly didn't meet them on a real life side-walk - they got visited inside their minds.

And of course it is absurd.

But even basic and common pieces of Christian doctrine strongly discourage anything with properties like LDing - even if you don't believe in the fairy tales - this seems pretty clear to me!

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## Nailler

> But even basic and common pieces of Christian doctrine strongly discourage anything with properties like LDing - even if you don't believe in the fairy tales - this seems pretty clear to me!



Yes, but there are Christians, and then there are *CHRISTIANS.*

I've heard that in parts of America even such innocent fun as the Harry Potter books are forbidden by some Christian sects. In my opinion, that's just plain wrong.

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## Goldenspark

> I don't see how knowing you're asleep is any more sinful than knowing you're awake, but wanted to hear your opinions. Attachment 6843



Just getting back to the original question, I don't see that lucid dreaming itself is sinful. It depends what you do in your dream. All the talk of maybe pretending to be God etc. is equally applicable whether dreaming or awake. The consequences just seem to be much less when dreaming because of the element of privacy (from other human beings).
If you LD and don't engage in sinful activity, I would argue you are not sinning period.

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## StephL

> If you LD and don't engage in sinful activity, I would argue you are not sinning period.



Show me one Christian DJ, where I wouldn't come across the dreamer lucidly sinning in some way.  ::wink::

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## Nailler

> If you LD and don't engage in sinful activity, I would argue you are not sinning period.



But what is "sinful activity"? If nobody is actually harmed, is what you're doing really a sin? 

Branding all manner of activity a sin is a good way to keep others suppressed and easy to control, with no consideration of the well being of he "sinner."  And isn't that in itself a sin?

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## StephL

> But what is "sinful activity"? If nobody is actually harmed, is what you're doing really a sin?



I think, we all agree, that the temptation to do things in lucid dreams, you wouldn't do irl, is huge and has many facets.
Firing these neural circuits will change, who you are in these respects in real life - by simple neural feedback mechanisms.
Wanting to LD so much, our Christians don't seem to care, if they could become a more sinful entity along those lines.
Lets see, what the officials will say!





> Branding all manner of activity a sin is a good way to keep others suppressed and easy to control, with no consideration of the well being of he "sinner."  And isn't that in itself a sin?



Branding all humans as carriers of the original sin, who desperately need the salvation, which can only be had by following the doctrine of Christianity is exactly what made the churches powerful and devastating.

How can you bring yourself to believe, that a willing human sacrifice 2000 years ago did away with our ultimate responsibility - as long as we let the Christ enter our hearts, confessing and whatnot afterwards.
Now that's an easy out!
But all, who have and had - in history and now - not have access to that happy message are lost.
God doesn't care about them.

How nice for the ego to reckon, every single minute of one's life has so much significance to god and the devil - it's constantly being fought over.
I can see the attraction.


I always wondered, why humans supposedly need the ten commandments to know, that you shouldn't kill etc.? I mean seriously - nobody would have made it to mount Sinai, if they hadn't had that inborn moral compass and capacity to compassion and altruism in their genes!

You get the belief in a life after death as the carrot to follow and never reach - now isn't that perfect, no need for existential fear - how cosy!
But this delusion makes you more gullible, easier to suppress and enslave.
And it lets you treasure the here and now less, than you should.

Are you a Christian, Nailler?
If so - what exactly do you believe in?

Really hard to make out, what Christianity actually entails.
No wonder - disagreeing on the meanings in a book, written hundreds of years after the actual stories are supposed to have taken place - and after the editing and political decisions, as to what is to stay, and what to go - who can honestly call himself a literalist? The NT not even claimed to be written by Jesus, or even his apostles themselves.

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## Nailler

> Firing these neural circuits will change, who you are in these respects in real life - by simple neural feedback mechanisms..



I don't believe that for a second. It's the same argument made about violent video games, when in fact juvenile crime rates plummeted even as such games became ever more popular.  

aaaaaa.jpg





> Are you a Christian, Nailler?



I'm not a Christian.  

I'm one of the "demons" who possesses a body in order to have a game... as are we all.

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## StephL

Well yeah - most probably it is not so easy, when it comes to higher brain-functions - but in principle it's true.
What I try to do is argue the case, that it could lead to you becoming a more "sinful" person irl - not an objectively more harmful person.
It is not about running around and actually killing people or actually having sex - more about the _sinful thoughts_, and while the law and statistics don't care about those - Christianity does.

Another aspect: playing a game doesn't activate the same brain-regions than doing something irl or in an LD does.
If you run in an LD the respective regions light up on fMRI in the absence of running - that is not so in a video game - at least till we'll have virtual reality.

What I know for sure, is that doing martial arts training - as I used to - leads to thoughts about violence and fighting - I've been daydreaming about violence _a lot_ back then.

If it was as I propose - practising prayer and devotion to Christ in LDs would then make you a more devout person as well.
Just how high is the motivation to do that - compared to the temptations? 
Does somebody practise prayer-plus in their LDs?
If so - how is the relation between devout LDing and just fun stuff like fighting and having sex?

I really wonder, what for example Sensei's teachers think of the topic..
Maybe I'm wrong, they laugh, and say LDing is all fine - I really doubt it, though.


As to your demon notion - that's your dualistic model - happy to hear you at least hold it without the Christian ballast!

I am my body - and I'm playing the game as well - just with the notion, that once I ultimately crash myself/the body - it's game over and no reload!
I wouldn't choose it such, of course - but wishful thinking can't do away with the honest analysis of evidence.
And all of that points towards the fact, that in order to display all these wonderful higher and lower mental faculties - I need a brain - a working living brain. Maybe one day, a personality can change matrix - "upload" or something - but not into the void, you needed a physical computation arrangement.

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## Goldenspark

> Show me one Christian DJ, where I wouldn't come across the dreamer lucidly sinning in some way.



So, people sin. That still doesn't make lucid dreaming itself sinful. (I'm just trying to make a case for the OP here).

Since I'm not particularly religious, I'd rather de-couple this from using the word "sin" and talk rather about morality.
Lucid dreaming itself is not amoral, just as real life is not amoral. What you do within that life can be, but the very act of living, or LDing, is not in itself amoral.

The big difference with lucid dreams is that they can be much more private than real life (unless you live on a desert island).
That means lucid dreams can be beyond the control of the law makers, and beyond religious control, which is probably why some religious people don't like it.

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## Goldenspark

> But what is "sinful activity"? If nobody is actually harmed, is what you're doing really a sin? 
> 
> Branding all manner of activity a sin is a good way to keep others suppressed and easy to control, with no consideration of the well being of he "sinner."  And isn't that in itself a sin?



That's a good point. In the privacy of an LD each person will have different levels of what they consider to be acceptable behaviour.
Each individual can justify any actions with that argument. Then it's down to that individuals religious conviction.

As I relied to StephL, I would rather talk about morality than sin. I think the same holds true.

There are some dangers I would suggest, and these are probably similar to those in waking life.
An example would be de-sensitisation from moral values, like watching violent films can shift the real world response, or bad treatment of others could lead to learned behaviour etc..

The simple moral values of "Do as you would be done by", or treating all others with respect etc. are still good values whether your in waking life or an LD.

As to exploring amoral or dangerous acts in an LD to re-affirm that they are amoral / dangerous - there could be some value in that. Knowing that it is a "simulation" and that nobody gets harmed.
I can enjoy a Schwarzenegger or Willis action film like many others, knowing that no-one actually dies and that it's not real.
It probably even can help to release aggression.

It's obviously a wide grey area.

However, if you are of religious conviction, and are worried about burning in hell for all eternity, just don't sin in your LDs and you should be fine!

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## Sageous

> I would rather talk about morality than sin. I think the same holds true.



Perhaps the thing to talk about here, rather than sin or morality, is guilt?

It seems that whenever I encounter a thread like this, especially one whose OP really has nothing to do with doing bad things in LD's, I have to wonder from where the argument is sourced.  Though religion always comes up, I think it's more a question of basic humanity.

Good people do not want to do bad things, period.  But we all get the occasional urge to, say, rip our co-worker's head off, strangle our neighbor's dog, or drive our cars right into the trunk of the asshole on the phone who just pulled out in front of us.  We get the urge, but, knowing that doing any of those things is fundamentally wrong, we curb our feelings and go on with our lives.  But when in a LD, we don't have to curb those feelings; indeed, we can fuel them and act on them to our hearts content.  But can we really? Even while doing bad things in dreams, don't good people get the sensation that the thing they are doing is wrong, and wrong _period_, not wrong because it is illegal in waking-life, or because God said it was wrong. 

By fundamentally I mean that we know, instinctively, that doing evil deeds in dreams (i.e., murder, rape, torture) is wrong.  Even though no one will catch us, and no one gets hurt, the things we are doing conflict with our basic human nature... human nature shared by atheists and bible-thumpers, whether they like it or not.  This knowledge is amplified by the NLD-residual impression that your dream environment is a real place, and DC's are real people (hell, how many LD'ers announce that there dreams are "realer than real," whatever that means?).

I wonder if there isn't some unconscious guilt going on when people so staunchly defend the freedom to do whatever you want in a dream?  Forget religion, forget philosophical morality, and just boil all this down to simple human nature.  Bad things are bad things, wherever you do them, because the badness of those things is ultimately defined by you, by both your innate nature and intellectual world view, and not by any religious or legal doctrine.

So you do bad things in a LD, things that might be a lot of fun, and might indeed relieve pressure that can build by not doing them in waking-life.  But a part of you knows that, because you are lucid, it is still _you_ doing those bad things.  You intellectually dismiss that misgiving, perhaps rightfully so, but I wonder if it doesn't still linger after waking, manifesting itself in things like these long, energetic, and often angry defenses of doing bad things in dreams.

Just a thought; and one that I can't help but notice has nothing whatsoever to do with the arguably amoral (and sin-free) event of Satanic possession during LD's.

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## StephL

The OP is unfortunately gone it seems - so we do not get to know, if it was only about gathering ammunition, while not honestly hoping for a yes/no answer from us, because he or she didn't seriously consider daemons and the devil as real.
But lets say - and I saw such a thread in BD - somebody honestly wants to know, if LDing is recommended, or at least irrelevant, for a devout Christian - as defined by who knows.

Dear OP - why would you talk about your LDing with your family in the first place - none of their business - no need to come with distorted pseudo-arguments, acknowledging their religiosity, which you yourself deem over the top.
What is in your head only, is also your business only - don't buy into confession, please don't!
That's a tool for control.






> So, people sin. That still doesn't make lucid dreaming itself sinful. (I'm just trying to make a case for the OP here).



Would you deny that there is a certain heightened sexuality in LDs (I have nothing against that, just to make sure nobody gets me wrong)?
Or that feeling omnipotence is within human reach in LDs?
Correct - you don't have to - but why put yourself in strong temptation?
Remember - this is specifically about_ Christianity_ - not Islam - not common sense and garden variety innate human morals and social relevance.





> Since I'm not particularly religious, I'd rather de-couple this from using the word "sin" and talk rather about morality.
> Lucid dreaming itself is not amoral, just as real life is not amoral. What you do within that life can be, but the very act of living, or LDing, is not in itself amoral.



*Completely agree - LDing is not unethical, and inside your own head - you do not need to justify yourself for anything.*
But that is my opinion - as an agnostic atheist and Humanist as well as existential nihilist - I only lately found the names for the latter two.  ::biggrin:: 

But in Christian terms it is sinful behaviour or at least bringing yourself under temptation on purpose. 
It starts with that you have more time to sin, if you are conscious in a dream and gain moral agency subjectively - instead of being innocently asleep.





> The big difference with lucid dreams is that they can be much more private than real life (unless you live on a desert island).
> That means lucid dreams can be beyond the control of the law makers, *and beyond religious control, which is probably why some religious people don't like it.*



There you go - that's what I say - the motion of the thread, if LDing is Satanic/sinful has the answer: YES 
Within Christianity, mind you, see above.





> It's obviously a wide grey area.
> However, if you are of religious conviction, and are worried about burning in hell for all eternity, just don't sin in your LDs and you should be fine!



Ha - so you say, once they kill or have sex with something other than wife/husband - then they do sin?
This is a question for theologians - but nice that you make my point - that there is a point to be made, namely!

But if you LD like a saint - and once you believe in daemons and sorcery and necromancy - consider my summing up on page one - it is highly likely considered part of these things by certain or maybe most theologians.
Or really opens to partial possession - think, I made my points there.
You can not be sure, that you'll be fine! wink.gif






> Perhaps the thing to talk about here, rather than sin or morality, is guilt?
> 
> It seems that whenever I encounter a thread like this, especially one *whose OP really has nothing to do with doing bad things in LD's*, I have to wonder from where the argument is sourced.  Though religion always comes up, I think it's more a question of basic humanity.
> 
> Just a thought; and one that I can't help but notice has nothing whatsoever to do with the arguably amoral (and sin-free) event of Satanic possession during LD's.



Sageous seriously?
The thread is about if LDing is Satanic, and Satan's supposed main job is tempting people to sin.
So this is not reduced to being a more or less passive victim of vicious entities.
Of course it is about doing bad things in LDs as well, and if that counts - and it was me who brought it up.

The question could be reformulated: Is LDing compatible with Christianity? Only with moderate Christianity, or also with biblical literalism, like Sensei practises?

To leave fairy tale land for a little while and consider matters closer to a useful concept for ethics and morality - our innate moral compass. 
As I mentioned above - how could the Israelites have even _reached_ mount Sinai for Moses to get that revolutionary new and special moral codex - if not for our human nature and our general benevolence and moral compass.
As default - if people kept murdering and raping and stealing and breaking up monogamous partnerships in spite and lied and cheated to considerable effects - they would have gotten nowhere. Period.

And what you said in your post was an homage to this humanity - and I fullheartedly agree - we are not somehow implicitly bad creatures - we are wonderful.
It is Christianity telling us otherwise - we would all be inherently and a priori sinful, and we _absolutely need_ salvation, and god would still be our vengeful, absolute tyrant - killing firstborns, or all of humanity except Noah's bunch - if not for Jesus being a consciously accepting half-human-half-god sacrifice. 
No - I am human - there is nothing wrong with that - I am not at the mercy of a sacrifice 2000 years ago to be _potentially_ and _eventually_ forgiven. 

This thread is not in the framework of Humanism or even moderate religion - but raw Christianity with Satan and daemons and such surely thought-crimes, too.

But mainly I want to see, if for example Sensei's bible companions and teachers would be completely okay with LDing, after reading this thread.
I doubt it - but on the other hand I would like to be positively surprised!



*Sensei - don't feel pressured by me, please - don't show it to them, if you are reasonable, I would even say.
Except you are really sure of yourself, of course - then it would be very interesting!*  ::wink:: 

Also relevant - if 83% of Americans identify themselves as Christians - we should have our fair share here.
Should come out, that LDing is highly discouraged - I would have theoretically helped save souls by informing them in time! 
Or they see the light and the absurdity in the whole faith and join the jolly atheists.
Ah - I feel a bit like a nasty old woman - sort of sorry..

hiding.gif

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## Nailler

> What I try to do is argue the case, that it could lead to you becoming a more "sinful" person irl - not an objectively more harmful person.
> It is not about running around and actually killing people or actually having sex - more about the sinful thoughts, and while the law and statistics don't care about those - Christianity does.



Wouldn't any truly loving God consider making others worry about their "sinful"" thoughts a sin?

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## Sageous

> Sageous *seriously*?
> The thread is about if LDing is Satanic, and Satan's supposed main job is tempting people to sin.
> So this is not reduced to being a more or less passive victim of vicious entities.



Seriously.  

I guess I was taking the OP literally, Steph.  Possession, should it exist, is very much a non-temptation event, brought about by the encroachment of vicious entities upon the minds/souls of, yes, potentially passive victims.  In other words, with possession, Satan is _acting_, not tempting, and the victim's actions or intentions are inconsequential. 

From what I understand, possession does not require a sinful act on the part of the possessed. So, to me, sin does not matter... even if the OP appears to have thought it did. 

That aside, I think this conversation about sinning in LD's is much more interesting than a bunch of people saying, "No, LD'ing does not open you to possession," and your posts (especially the last one) are excellent, _and_ the OP is gone, so why not talk sin?

*Nailler:*





> Wouldn't any truly loving God consider making others worry about their "sinful"" thoughts a sin?



I would say yes to that; and up the ante by saying that a truly loving God would not care at all about the thoughts (or deeds, for that matter) of _anyone._  Aside from having better things to do than spy on the thoughts of uncounted billions of entities, you'd think His unconditional love would forgive or (more likely) ignore the petty transactions of individual minds (minds He built to have those thoughts, BTW).

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## Nailler

> Satan is acting, not tempting, and the victim's actions or intentions are inconsequential.



From that point of view, it stands to reason that Satan might choose as his targets the most innocent among us.

Maybe people are still subject to the control and domination methods of organized religion because in an evolutionary sense, to do so once increased the survival potential of the organism. If religions do gain their power to dominate from outdated hard-wiring in the psyche, that might explain why some religious people are willing to accept the truly ridiculous at face value. If it's hard-wired in the construct of their personal reality that the "word of God" is always true, then anything contradictory would automatically be assumed to be false. It would also explain why arguing religion is always a futile endeavor.       

Not meaning to insult anyone. I do know that religion can also be a force for good in present day.

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## StephL

> Wouldn't any truly loving God consider making others worry about their "sinful"" thoughts a sin?



Surely - but is a god truly loving, if he kills off all his first batch of humans except for the righteous Noah and his family? Nope.






> Seriously.  
> 
> I guess I was taking the OP literally, Steph.  Possession, should it exist, is very much a non-temptation event, brought about by the encroachment of vicious entities upon the minds/souls of, yes, potentially passive victims.  In other words, with possession, Satan is _acting_, not tempting, and the victim's actions or intentions are inconsequential. 
> 
> From what I understand, possession does not require a sinful act on the part of the possessed. So, to me, sin does not matter... even if the OP appears to have thought it did. 
> That aside, I think this conversation about sinning in LD's is much more interesting than a bunch of people saying, "No, LD'ing does not open you to possession," and your posts (especially the last one) are excellent, _and_ the OP is gone, so why not talk sin?



Yeah - I sort of thought, I bring "Satanic" in a second context, than the mentioned example in the OP. 
I even read up a bit on possession as concept, and it seems it is mainly considered something happening to non-Christians or wavering but also innocent Christians - and it does not require an invitation, as far as doctrine has it.
I just meant - do you seriously think, that talking about sin is off topic.





> I would say yes to that; and up the ante by saying that a truly loving God would not care at all about the thoughts (or deeds, for that matter) of _anyone._  Aside from having better things to do than spy on the thoughts of uncounted billions of entities, you'd think His unconditional love would forgive or (more likely) ignore the petty transactions of individual minds (minds He built to have those thoughts, BTW).



There you go - you are a classical deist, it seems to me - theism redux - god as the ultimate cause and source - but after bringing everything up to speed, so to speak - he keeps his fingers well off us and (hopefully) loves us unconditionally.
That's a nice form of religion - but certainly, it's not Christianity.






> Maybe people are still subject to the control and domination methods of organized religion because in an evolutionary sense, to do so once increased the survival potential of the organism. 
> If religions do gain their power to dominate from outdated hard-wiring in the psyche, that might explain why some religious people are willing to accept the truly ridiculous at face value. If it's hard-wired in the construct of their personal reality that the "word of God" is always true, then anything contradictory would automatically be assumed to be false.



I remember an argument evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins made, which goes along those lines and more in here: 
Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion.pdf
Starts on page 171 - in chapter 5 "The Roots Of Religion" (which starts on page 161) - still reading myself...





> It would also explain why arguing religion is always a futile endeavor.



It is not always a futile endeavour - many a religious person has come off it - not least, because people like Dawkins, and the late Christopher Hitchens as well, write and debate and others do other things to try and enlighten those, who are not on their trees by the count of ten.

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## Meskhetyw

The history of Christianity is written in blood, many of it's traditions are stolen (or rather, reluctantly incorporated), and many of it's scare tactics (demons for example) are a corruption of originally beautiful pagan values and concepts. I was a Lutheran until I was ten years old; when I read the bible. I became anti-christian on the spot, and after studying history, I cannot imagine why anyone would be drawn to this religion. No offense to Christians of course; you are not your ancestors.

I admire your attempts to argue Steph; I used to try to argue religion and politics, but in the end I was just getting nowhere, and making people angry by only presenting facts about history. People tend to identify themselves with their opinions; as if they were eternal or a part of their body that you are attempting to amputate. I just try to be an example and leave it at that now. I can't imagine anyone being angry with you though; you have a way with words. Just don't let it frustrate you.

"You can hold your breath until you turn blue, but they'll still go on doing it." - Marcus Aurelius

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## acillis

i havnt come across many lucid dreaming books by christians, other then Lucid Dreaming: Dawning of the Clear Light
he actually uses lucid dreaming to get closer to jesus

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## Sageous

> There you go - you are a classical deist, it seems to me - theism redux - god as the ultimate cause and source - but after bringing everything up to speed, so to speak - he keeps his fingers well off us and (hopefully) loves us unconditionally.
> That's a nice form of religion - but certainly, it's not Christianity.



I never thought of myself as a deist; at least not for 30 years or  so.  One of my books even opens with the phrase, "First, there is no God."  I was speaking hypothetically with Nailler, trying to extend the logic of a truly loving God's nature or motives. Perhaps it was my catholic upbringing peeking through the words...maybe the message of 16 yrs of catholic school is truly indelible!

I'm personally of the mind these days that all the mystical stuff (if there even is any), including our souls, is created by our own minds during our own lifetimes, with nothing bestowed upon us but DNA.  Speaking of DNA, I actually think love itself isn't quite the magical force we've built it up to be, but just a powerful natural device that ensures procreation and protection of our young.  Should He exist, I have a feeling that God would be a little confused about our elevation of a corporeal emotion to spiritual status -- but then I guess He would just sigh and say, "Well, I gave them imaginations, so I can't complain."

And I suppose, Steph, if God does exists, I would not be surprised if that existence were manifest exactly as you describe above... not terribly christian at all, for sure, but not terribly terrible, either!

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## Nailler

> Should He exist, I have a feeling that God would be a little confused about our elevation of a corporeal emotion to spiritual status



Or maybe it should be: "Should they exist..."

What if we are to the gods as goldfish are to us?

I read an article about how evolution tends to occur in spurts, every so many million years. Got me to thinking maybe the gods who set up this aquarium check back every now and again to make adjustmetns. Maybe next time they drop by they'll decide to clean the tank again, like they did when they got sick of the dinosaurs. 





> I actually think love itself isn't quite the magical force we've built it up to be...



Maybe it depends upon the kind of love we're talking about. It's almost like we need different words for the different kinds of love. The experience of "love" the first time I "fell in love" with a girl was a very different experience from "loving" my dog, or my dad.

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## Nailler

> It is not always a futile endeavour - many a religious person has come off it - not least, because people like Dawkins, and the late Christopher Hitchens as well, write and debate and others do other things to try and enlighten those, who are not on their trees by the count of ten.



I have a theory that human beings have a need to believe something that cannot be proved. Something that is at best illogical, and at worst, just plain nuts. If it isn't religion, it'll be something else just as suspect... anthropogenic global warming or communism for example.

While we can plainly see absurd beliefs in others, we can't see our own. 

Atheists who believe they can scientifically prove there is no god, and I've met a few, are as nutty as they come.  

Anyway, that's my theory, so in regards to nutty ideas, I think we all live in glass houses and shouldn't be throwing stones.

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## StephL

thank-you.gif so much for chiming in, Meskhetyw!


And soz Sageous - even better - the Deists have a hard time (to say the least) justifying their god's existence anyway.
Great start for a book as well!
Cool.gif


Nailler - no atheist will tell you they can prove there is no god, if they are worth their water - it only means we don't believe in god.
You can't prove a negative - and I really can't see how being an agnostic atheist would in some way be believing in absurd things.

Like somebody threw an asteroid to clean the basin, or came up with and let loose the methane spewing bacteria, which are now believed to have caused the Permian mass extinction - much, much worse than the asteroid could manage millions of years later.

I see what you mean, though - there is highly probably a connection between traits, which have helped us to survive and our receptiveness for religion - also dualism - check out Dawkins for some nice deliberations on that.
But we are bestowed with higher mental faculties, which enable us to emancipate us from this ballast.
idea.gif

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## Sensei

Holy Crap! Sorry so much about the delay. I haven't even been on the computer much lately, and when I am, my daughter has been pretty upset, so it is hard to think. I took the day at work to think up a response. I will finally have time tomorrow to give an answer *that will satisfy everyone.* muhaha. Well maybe not everyone, but at least StephL. It might be a bit preachy... But honestly... Y'all asked for it, so y'all are gonna get preaching Sensei.  :Pope: 

It will also show exactly to what extent I am ridiculously crazy.  :tongue2:

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## StephL

Great!!

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## Sageous

> Or maybe it should be: "Should they exist..."
> 
> What if we are to the gods as goldfish are to us?
> 
> I read an article about how evolution tends to occur in spurts, every so many million years. Got me to thinking maybe the gods who set up this aquarium check back every now and again to make adjustments. Maybe next time they drop by they'll decide to clean the tank again, like they did when they got sick of the dinosaurs.



Could be.  Indeed, it's just as likely to be true as all the rest.  I just hope I'm gone before the next adjustment!  :wink2: 





> Maybe it depends upon the kind of love we're talking about. It's almost like we need different words for the different kinds of love. The experience of "love" the first time I "fell in love" with a girl was a very different experience from "loving" my dog, or my dad.



I would argue that the baseline "love" in all those experiences is identical.  What is different is the _amplification_ you make to the already rich feeling that the baseline emotion provides. When falling in love, you might be intellectually multiplying the cool effect (perhaps driven unconsciously by other procreational drivers, especially in cases of 'love at first sight') of the no doubt powerful injection of baseline love into your system.  Since you are sentient, that effect can reach a point where that effect engulfs your imagination, and you construct a state of being "in love."  In a sense, you created your deep love, designed by your imagination and fueled by your nature. 

I guess what I'm saying is that that transcendental love you feel and share is created completely by you, and not some unique esoteric energy.  _There is of course nothing wrong with that_ -- hell, transcendental (or romantic) love is probably the greatest side-effect of sentience there is -- but there is also nothing magical or mystical about it.  

Since there is nothing mystical about it, there is no reason to think that God loves at all, much less decide that God _is_ love.  I think the idea of a loving God might just be a bit of anthropomorphism, or perhaps just taking the best thing in our little lives and deciding that God must be that thing. I don't know.  Who does?

Okay, now we're completely off topic from the off topic discussion we were having before!  Maybe Brandon -- oh, crap, I mean maybe Sensei will get us back on track...

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## Nailler

> Nailler - no atheist will tell you they can prove there is no god, if they are worth their water - it only means we don't believe in god.
> You can't prove a negative - and I really can't see how being an agnostic atheist would in some way be believing in absurd things.



Depends on the atheist, Steph. Just as there are Christian zealots, there are atheist zealots that claim otherwise. 

Proving or disproving the existence or non-existence of god(s) is equally difficult.

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## Nailler

> I guess what I'm saying is that that transcendental love you feel and share is created completely by you, and not some unique esoteric energy



As is everything we experience... 
Unless we manage to escape the MATRIX, which is the construct in the back of our brains, and directly experience things as a soul/awareness/spirit... which leads into my theory that the purpose of the whole thing might be to create the illusion that we're not alone.  

But I'll stop now, rather than pull the thread even further into the woods.

----------


## StephL

> Depends on the atheist, Steph. Just as there are Christian zealots, there are atheist zealots that claim otherwise. 
> 
> Proving or disproving the existence or non-existence of god(s) is equally difficult.



What defines a zealot for you? I have a hard time imagining an agnostic zealot - whatever it means to you.

In principle - proving a negative is not possible - how could I disprove, that there is a microscopic unicorn in your garden? I can't.
You, though, having a unicorn in your garden, you could carry it with you to the biology department of the closest university and revolutionize the field. Feed it something nice, while you are at it.
And nobody came even close to bring evidence for divine beings - if you disregard a book of many books thousands of years old, in our case.
What is more probable - there is no god, if you don't find any evidence - or there is a god, because it says so in the book?





> Unless we manage to escape the MATRIX, which is the construct in the back of our brains, and directly experience things as a soul/awareness/spirit...



I could imagine - said it before - that we are a simulation on some advanced being's computational arrangements.
Like you say above - we would be living in the MATRIX, but it would not be a construction of our brains, but of those arrangements.
Do you think, every single brain could put up the whole collectively experienced reality of all of us - including astrophysicists and everybody? And that without evidence for any sort of mechanism of non-physical information-transfer ever provided.
Nope - if we are created, then most probably by aliens, if the reality one complexity step outwards from us is anything like our simulated one.

But why on earth would something like this be probably the case?
The universal constant? Well ..

There is simply nothing to make me believe in a soul.
And why do you believe such a simulated being in a MATRIX, or a normal human being could exist in it's essence without a brain - or another  physical matrix? How come this seems likely to you?
Just because it _feels_ as if there was something to mind, which is qualitatively different to matter - maybe agency?





> which leads into my theory that the purpose of the whole thing might be to create the illusion that we're not alone.



Who or what would set a purpose to anything?
So you do believe in gods - which ones?
We ourselves are the ones to give our lives meaning in my eyes. 
Subjectively - there is a lot of meaning in life - especially when it is about collective purposes and mutual validation.
Wonderful - I like living.
I do not require the illusion, that somebody gave a purpose for my life - I do that just fine.
It's wishful thinking - that's how I see it - fear of ultimate "soul-death".

----------


## sramsay12

I log on to this site for the first time in over two months after a lack of motivation, and I see THIS? Oh well, 1. Don't let thoughts like this restrict you in doing what you enjoy, 2. It's not Satanic unless you are actually worshipping Satan, in fact most "Satanists" are not "satanic" as Christians believe them to be, and 3. Is it really anyone else's business what you do in your head when you're asleep? 

I don't mean to come across as rude or anything, apologies if I seem that way  :smiley:

----------


## Nailler

> I have a hard time imagining an agnostic zealot - whatever it means to you.



_zeal·ot 8ˈzelət/
noun
    1.   a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.
Synonyms
2. extremist, crank, bigot. See fanatic. 
_
I have encountered two such individuals who were atheists and considered they could prove that the concept of a god is a logical fallacy.





> That is more probable - there is no god, if you don't find any evidence - or there is a god, because it says so in the book?



I'm not arguing for the existence of a god as defined by the Bible, and I agree the existence of such a being as envisioned by Christians is, to say the least, highly unlikely.  But just as I can't prove there is a god of some sort, neither can you prove there is no god. 





> Like you say above - we would be living in the MATRIX, but it would not be a construction of our brains, but of those arrangements.



The "matrix" we live in IS a construct of our brains. That is a scientific fact, regardless of the nature of the "I" or "awareness unit", be it biological, spiritual, or some combination thereof. I personally believe only a spirit or soul is capable of being aware of anything. Most of the human population agrees with me on that score.   

In other words, the universe we perceive as humans and call "reality" exists entirely and only in the construct in the back of our brains. Everything we experience is an illusion that takes place in the illusion of space generated by that construct. That's true whether we're asleep or awake. The only difference is that while awake, the content of the construct is mostly influenced by electrical impulses generated by the various sense organs and relayed to our brains via our nervous systems.  





> I do not require the illusion, that somebody gave a purpose for my life - I do that just fine.



Yes! That's the beauty of it all. Beyond simple surviving, there is no purpose to the game other than the purpose we give it. But that's the wonder of it all... we can make our game about anything we want... once we understand its true nature. 

So who or what gave us such a wonderful playing field or set up its rules? 

Damned if I know.

----------


## Hummer

Nailer
Over at my SUNDS thread which is connected, in a way to this one, "Satan," or a certain form of energy -- there are many ways to see or imagine this -- is being used to kill people in dreams. Mostly Oriental people who do not perform religious rituals properly. 

There are some "playing fields" that are less than wonderful. There are some, many situations where forces wishing to dominate dreaming have set up those rules and require others to obey them. 

And there are some using the image or power of "Satan" to frighten others into their fold. 

No, the Matrix is not a construct of our brains but a construct of the Matrix. Neo and his crew who live outside that construct live in the "desert of the real" and eat gruel and feel one hell of a lot of pain. Where's that in this discussion?

So who gave us such a wonderful playing field where "inceptions," dream rapes to get us to divest ourselves of our inheritances are possible? Where the Matrix and the whole series of films it involves are not about dreaming but about computers?  May I suggest you follow the money? May I suggest you look at the staggering poverty stricken nature of the average human being divested of true creation, his or her psyche, soul of power, Promethean being and nearly everything else?

Take a look at the dreams of your compatriots here in the General Dreaming section where dreamers are tearing out their eyes, going through various hells, wondering if fate is going to kill their boyfriend or not and maybe, yes, you will try to do something about who has arranged the game.

Hummer

----------


## Nailler

> There are some, many situations where forces wishing to dominate dreaming have set up those rules and require others to obey them.



I couldn't disagree more.

It's all you babes!

----------


## StephL

Hummer - you lost touch with reality.
Mostly Oriental people, who don't do their religious service properly get killed by Satan in their dreams? My bad.

----------


## StephL

Oh - and I still can't imagine an *agnostic* zealot - but I can imagine an atheistic zealot - I'm both the a-words and still aware I can't prove a negative.
Shame about these people you know, Nailler - doesn't do the cause any good.
And a cause I do have - I really don't like Christianity, and find it worthwhile to try and open people's eyes about it.

----------


## Hummer

Nailer--
You cite The Matrix, as do most of you LD dreaming types without paying an iota of attention to the content of the film. So, Neo, says to all those dominated, ensconsced, enslaved in body pods feeding the Matrix energy system, "It's all up to you babes!"

If nothing else maybe I can get you to quite abusing the reference to that film which you know utterly nothing about.

Hummer

----------


## Hummer

StephL

*Mostly Oriental people, who don't do their religious service properly get killed by Satan in their dreams? My bad*

What do I do with this sentence, these sentences? "My bad?" What exactly do you mean? Do you know? I doubt it. 

Yes, people, even...Orientals are being killed in their dreams. Cripes there may be hundreds, thousands of white, middle class Americans killed in their dreams by the same syndrome only we have no SUNDS tradition -- instead we call it...sudden death in sleep, a heart attack, a stroke, "oh, he or she simply stopped breathing." We have no idea what horrific presence was there to steal the soul, heart, psyche.

No dreams, no investigation, no nothing. No challenge from folks like you dreaming your lucid steak dreams. No curiosity about what the heck it might actually mean that "God" flooded the entire planet to eliminate a whole kind of person, dreamer in favor of another kind of person, dreamer who does not dare to explore down into the basement where the "red pill" takes you.

Tell me a red pill dream and what you are doing about it and maybe I will have some respect for you.

Hummer

----------


## Nailler

> Nailer--
> You cite The Matrix, as do most of you LD dreaming types without paying an iota of attention to the content of the film.



My reference to THE MATRIX is by way of analogy. It's entirely appropriate.

By the way, some find the word "Oriental" offensive when applied to people. I think mostly it's just outdated like the word "negro." If you care about such things, the word "Asian" is preferred.

----------


## Nailler

> Yes, people, even...Orientals are being killed in their dreams. Cripes there may be hundreds, thousands of white, middle class Americans killed in their dreams by the same syndrome



What led you to believe people are dying in real life because they were killed in their dreams?

----------


## AstralProjectee

> My mother and brother, both overbearing, religious, and nosey, both claim that by practicing lucid dreaming, I am opening myself to possession.  I don't see how knowing you're asleep is any more sinful than knowing you're awake, but wanted to hear your opinions. (Don't worry I'm not about to boycott lucid dreaming.  I just wanted to know...Attachment 6843



I've been a Christian in the past, and still believe in demons, but from my understanding and experience the answer is, no a negative entity or demon or whatever you want to call it can't do that type of thing with just lucid dreamers.

Peace.

----------


## StephL

> Nailer--
> You cite The Matrix, as do most of *you LD dreaming types* without paying an iota of attention to the content of the film. So, Neo, says to all those dominated, ensconsced, enslaved in body pods feeding the Matrix energy system, "It's all up to you babes!"
> 
> If nothing else maybe I can get you to quite abusing the reference to that film which you know utterly nothing about.
> 
> Hummer



You come along and behave as if _we lucid dreaming types_ would all refuse to save humankind from the evil aliens holding us in pods and feeding us the Matrix.
We wouldn't eat gruel and finally do something??
Hummer - these things are* fiction**!!* As much as they fascinate you, Inception as well - they are not reality.






> StephL
> 
> "Mostly Oriental people, who don't do their religious service properly get killed by Satan in their dreams? My bad"
> 
> What do I do with this sentence, these sentences? "My bad?" What exactly do you mean? Do you know? I doubt it. 
> 
> Yes, people, even...Orientals are being killed in their dreams. Cripes there may be hundreds, thousands of white, middle class Americans killed in their dreams by the same syndrome only we have no SUNDS tradition -- instead we call it...sudden death in sleep, a heart attack, a stroke, "oh, he or she simply stopped breathing." We have no idea what horrific presence was there to steal the soul, heart, psyche.
> 
> No dreams,* no investigation,* no nothing. *No challenge from folks like you dreaming your lucid steak dreams*. No curiosity about what the heck it might actually mean that "God" flooded the entire planet to eliminate a whole kind of person, dreamer in favor of another kind of person, dreamer who does not dare to explore down into the basement where the "red pill" takes you.
> ...



"My bad" is an expression, I stole from a Welsh mate of mine - he tends to utter it in situations, when he can hardly believe, what he is hearing, and in a bad way. Thought, it was English - but then - maybe it's just him.

Why do you think is it, that people usually don't die in their sleep, when they are not yet old people, and not really young babies any more?
Does the devil prefer grannies and babies??
Oh - I forgot - riight - the middle-aged do their rituals properly, is it?

You really seem to believe we were some secretly powerful group, meeting up in our dreams and doing whatnot.
We are not - every single one of us dreams lucid in and only in her head - there is no Matrix like in the movie - don't misunderstand philosophical debates as something actually tangible out there.

And now we should also start investigate, why a fairy-tale god supposedly committed genocide on his first batch?
Come on!!
He didn't - the flood is a stolen older myth and it didn't take place.
A local flood somewhere will have inspired people - and for them the world might have ended behind the farthest visible mountain.
There could not possibly have been a world-wide flood - it is completely illogical and contradicts everything we have in terms of science - even common sense alone should suffice - no geologists needed.
There's a thread on Noah in the religion subforum - fits better there to expound on that further, if somebody feels a need.

You come across like an almost militant wanna-believe-everything-at-once and accuse us people of not using "our powers".
Once more - we don't have any powers - we just dream lucidly - and that is truly extraordinary and wonderful and great - all that without your free-roaming superstitions.

You wonder why there are no red-pill dreams, about which you would so love to read to satisfy your thirst for sensationalism?
Well guess why that would be! rolleyes.gif

----------


## LucidMoon

I feel like I could get dragged into a debate on this but let's face it the answer to OPs question is really easy, it's

*NO!*

----------


## sramsay12

> I feel like I could get dragged into a debate on this but let's face it the answer to OPs question is really easy, it's
> 
> *NO!*



This. All the off-topic stuff is hurting my head, think I'll keep it simple and stick to rocket science

----------


## StephL

> I feel like I could get dragged into a debate on this but let's face it the answer to OPs question is really easy, it's
> 
> *NO!*



Easy for anybody, who doesn't believe in Satan anyway!
Around 60% of Americans do believe in an actual personal devil, though - and from that perspective it is a vitally important question. Not to forget the worldwide 2 billion Catholics.



It's pretty vitally important to drop that perspective, I would say!  ::wink::

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## Hebdomeros

It's only as satanic as waking life, or any stray imagination or is this implying people cant fantasize without invoking satan.

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## sisyphus

(cheeky) While Christians, atheists, and others may have an opinion, wouldn't satanists be the only credible source? If a satanist says it's satanical, then it's satanical. Just that cold, Jim. How you interpret the consequence of it being satanical is another matter.

----------


## Hilary

Wow. This discussion is amazing..





> Nailer
> Over at my SUNDS thread which is connected, in a way to this one, "Satan," or a certain form of energy -- there are many ways to see or imagine this -- is being used to kill people in dreams. Mostly Oriental people who do not perform religious rituals properly. 
> 
> There are some "playing fields" that are less than wonderful. There are some, many situations where forces wishing to dominate dreaming have set up those rules and require others to obey them. 
> 
> And there are some using the image or power of "Satan" to frighten others into their fold. 
> 
> No, the Matrix is not a construct of our brains but a construct of the Matrix. Neo and his crew who live outside that construct live in the "desert of the real" and eat gruel and feel one hell of a lot of pain. Where's that in this discussion?
> 
> ...



In response to Hummer's post - (forgive me if I'm not following you correctly. I am going on a tangent here, but maybe this will make some sense)

I can see why you would be discontent with the present reality. With all the horror that goes on in our world for the average man, I empathize with that. Someone told me Mother Teresa even doubted her faith at times, because of what she had seen. 

But also consider it from this angle. Perhaps the 'powers that be' are doing so with purpose. It's not about our reaching our soul potential, constructing our own futures to be perfect, etc. It's about teaching us to love each other, unconditionally. To give us each the free will to learn this, and should we ever do so in unity, this reality could be close to heaven. As more and more people awaken, it will catch on like fire - acts of love spur others to do acts of love. Rather than focusing on separating ourselves from the 'oneness'/ "God", or trying to change the world, fight the man, etc., perhaps we just need to change _ourselves_. Our entire outlook. Our motives for living. It's the one thing we are certain we _can_ change. And in doing so, we encourage others to follow in our footsteps. 

Queue song: _We don't change the world. We can change the facts. When we change the facts, we change points of view. We change points of view, we can change a vote. When we change a vote, we may change the world_ - Depeche Mode. 


I don't know. I don't lucid dream (yet). But I kind of like letting dreams come to me, giving up the control. If it's true about dreams shaping reality, I would want to spend my time meditating on love and happiness before bed, rather than trying to take direct control anyways.. therefore not putting myself in the position to fall into sin (which I'm guaranteed to do), and also not setting myself up for disappointed hopes. Accepting the good that comes as it is, with thankfulness, rather than striving for more.






> I would argue that the baseline "love" in all those experiences is identical.  What is different is the _amplification_ you make to the already rich feeling that the baseline emotion provides. When falling in love, you might be intellectually multiplying the cool effect (perhaps driven unconsciously by other procreational drivers, especially in cases of 'love at first sight') of the no doubt powerful injection of baseline love into your system.  Since you are sentient, that effect can reach a point where that effect engulfs your imagination, and you construct a state of being "in love."  In a sense, you created your deep love, designed by your imagination and fueled by your nature.



I would argue that feeling of being 'in love' isn't love at all. It's limerence. It's essentially anxiety, excitement, and what I call "narcissistic boosts" - fear at it's core. It is felt at the ego level. Love is peaceful, and it is an emotion, not just a choice. When you feel it, you feel it for everything and everyone. It's like a perfume that radiates. It is not for one singular thing, but everything around you. It is a state of being that comes from being connected to the higher Self/oneness/All That Is/God. And it starts from loving your true self, what you do with your life, accepting your flaws, etc. I do think it is easier to feel the emotion 'love' with others who also radiate it: children, animals, people without big egos.

----------


## Hummer

Nailer--
"Matrix" by way of analogy. What does that mean in the context of this thread about Satan in lucid dreaming? You need to clarify what analogy and how it relates to the film of that name.

Yes, maybe Asian is a better term but then no it isn't. Asian covers a much larger territory than "Oriental" and the references I have used, articles I read used that term without apology to mean people in, generally SE Asia, so your point is interesting but aside from the point.

I use it, too, without apology.

Hummer

----------


## Hummer

Nailer--
Well, they are! Those damned Oriental Asian people, Hmong types! 

I have had and I am sure thousands of others have had SUNDS like episodes that might well have resulted in death if I was in weaker physical condition. What I suggest is that SUNDS-like events may be behind many sudden or unexpected deaths in Western cultures, or may accompany them. However, because we pay such scant attention to dreaming they are not recored or seen as SUNDS events.

Hummer

----------


## Hummer

StephL
Thanks for the reply, clarification of "my bad," I thought it was a typo! 

I do see the Matrix bandied about a whole lot here and yet I see scant attention paid to the actual script or plot of the film and almost none to the fact the Neo's "out of Matrix" life is really tough, not wonderful "lucid dreaming." 

No, I do not believe you are a secret, powerful group, rather one capable of forgetting the "true," of reality in favor of something called "lucid  dreaming."

I do believe there was a "flood," which created the unconscious as a place where "God," do you see that is in quotes? could create black sites in order to do just about what ever "He" wanted to do. Including the use of dreamers as slaves as per Joseph in the book of Genesis. "Energy pods."

Lucid dreaming that cuts away that past is, for me, an escape up from snuffed.

In my opinion it doesn't work.

Hummer

----------


## Hummer

Sisyphus--
Not that this is relevant to all these NOs! here but there are a whole lot of ways in which Satan, Lucifer, can be seen as the hero or "whistle blower" on a system in which the CEO of the Heavenly Company has a secret covenant with the Dark Side. 

I am much more of that opinion, which, in the probably limited range of this discussion, is not particularly relevant. But, it, this topic, brings up a whole lot of energy.

Hummer

----------


## Nailler

> What I suggest is that SUNDS-like events may be behind many sudden or unexpected deaths in Western cultures, or may accompany them. However, because we pay such scant attention to dreaming they are not recored or seen as SUNDS events.



If the person died, how could we possibly determine with any certainty that the cause was a SUNDS event?

----------


## Nailler

> clarify what analogy and how it relates to the film of that name.



In THE MATRIX, the population believes they are directly experiencing the real world, when in fact, they're not. Rather, they're experiencing a construct in their brains. The same is true of people in everyday life, and thus the analogy.

----------


## Hummer

MoonageDaydream--
Thanks for your thoughtful post. Not sure how to respond to it. 

All I can tell you is what is in the original SUNDS post. That...thing, that awful soul stealing thing that freezes men's chests, that makes it impossible to breathe, that petrifies with terror with the image of Medusa on Athena's shield, came from a church. Came from from a church where people say much the same things you are saying about love, "peace" and yet what I experienced was the opposite of that.

So, yes, when I broke from that paralysis and pursued the Old hag, what the SUNDS phenomenon is called in Western cultures and found where it had been sent from I killed it. I would say that my doing so was out of love -- not for those who sent the thing to defeat an enemy an "unbeliever" but for those who wish to be free, who wish to have a choice, who wish to believe that one can be angry and act out of anger for love.

To liberate love from "peace" that is false.

Hummer

----------


## Hummer

Nailer--
You've responded faster than I can think. I'll get back to you.

Thanks

Hummer

----------


## Nailler

> Nailer--
> You've responded faster than I can think. I'll get back to you.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Hummer



Are you familiar with Sleep Paralysis? 
Check out:
Why NOT to be Scared of Sleep Paralysis

Also See:
http://thoughtcatalog.com/christine-...ralysis-demon/

----------


## Hummer

Nailer--
I think there is sp and sp. I am of the opinion you can run into what I might describe as Athena's shield with the head of Medusa on it in sleep, that causes not only sp but "turned to stone," so to speak. This condition is used to protect certain areas of sleep, dreaming, etc. To frighten you out, to signal "NO TRESPASSING!" 

I am familiar with the states described in the video including various kinds of terrifically convincing movement. They are movement of a sort. Can be enjoyed.

I don't think any of this has much to do with "thinking positive thoughts," which, frankly, sounds a little too much like Peter Pan. That's how you "fly."

Thanks.

Hummer

----------


## Hummer

Nailer--
I though I responded to this, but maybe didn't. Who or what is responsible for this "construct?" Is it used, as in the film, as a malevolent control device? How is it "the population" comes to have this construct in their brains? What do you see...though this construct, presuming you do see through it as a reality shell or screen?

Hummer

----------


## Hilary

I like your theories, Hummer. Whether or not they are where we should be focusing our energies, I don't know, but it's very interesting.  :smiley: 

What happened after your encounter? Have you had any SP episodes since then?

----------


## StephL

Well - I still hope,* Sensei* will chime in here and deliver his promised preaching.
Pertaining to the general question and my first response post to him - not about the whole thread of course! 
Even more interesting would still be, to show this thread to his bible-circle buddies and to his teachers, from whom he gets his formal education to become a preacher of a biblical literalist Christianity subgroup of - yeah - how is your church called, Sensei?
That would be easy to provide us with! Not to contact them, of course - just to read up on it.







> I do believe there was a "flood," which created the unconscious as a place where "God," do you see that is in quotes? could create black sites in order to do just about what ever "He" wanted to do. 
> Including the use of dreamers as slaves as per Joseph in the book of Genesis. "Energy pods."
> 
> Lucid dreaming that cuts away that past is, for me, an escape up from snuffed.
> In my opinion it doesn't work.
> 
> Hummer



I will rephrase that in order to see, if I get it:

_The flood was an event, which played out inside of the human mind.
There is a malignant being, usually referred to as the Christian God, who caused the event, in order to split "the unconscious" away from the formerly completely conscious human mind. (good you got terminology right, btw., and don't say "subconsciousness" a la Freud).

And so he can then set up hidden mechanisms in our unconscious, which lead us to follow his every whim and command.
What you now propose is that lucid dreamers should go into their unconscious to fight off god and his black pages down there.
All else would just be ignorant "steak-LDing"._

Did I basically understand, what you meant? Where have you got that from - your own idea?

Then comes a reference to Joseph.
Since you said, you studied Genesis intensely, it shouldn't be hard - please give me the exact location, so I can look it up.






> Not that this is relevant to all these NOs! here but there are a whole lot of ways in which Satan, Lucifer, can be seen as the hero or "whistle blower" on a system in which the CEO of the Heavenly Company has a secret covenant with the Dark Side. 
> 
> I am much more of that opinion, which, in the probably limited range of this discussion, is not particularly relevant. But, it, this topic, brings up a whole lot of energy.



So for you Satan is the good one in the game.

Should we then not maybe _embrace possession_, in order to have the helpful ex-angel Lucifer on our side?
He could assist us in finding and erasing God's evil schemes from our minds! Why don't your recommend Satanism to us explicitly?






> I think there is sp and sp. I am of the opinion you can run into what I might describe as Athena's shield with the head of Medusa on it in sleep, that causes not only sp but "turned to stone," so to speak. This condition is used to protect certain areas of sleep, dreaming, etc. To frighten you out, to signal "NO TRESPASSING!"



Sleep paralysis (SP) is indeed a security measure pertaining to sleep and dreams.
*It is there, so that you don't act out your dreams and thrash about in bed - or worse - fall out of a tree and get eaten.* 

If a religious person with certain pre-formed schemata of devils and daemons experiences what is called SP together with the typical tendency to hallucinate at the transition between waking and sleep - she will hallucinate, what she expects to be a paranormal terror in her belief system. Easiest way to come to a personal experience of that sort.
This is illusionary, though - see spoiler.

So there must actually be people, who get scared away from lucid dreaming (LDing) because of personal experiences with SP and these hallucinations, which seem to indicate, that it really is something Satanic, or at least highly supernaturally dangerous for life and soul and whatnot.

I got scared away for 10 years in my youth, after having gotten lucid by following the sorcery-fairy-tales of Castaneda, and thinking, I really enter other realms full of supernatural dangers. Somewhere only an advanced witch should visit. 
Shame - I had to become an agnostic atheist to finally start over again.
One reason, why I am up against superstitions around LDing.


*Spoiler* for _bit more on REM Atonia=Sleep Paralysis, Hallucinations_: 



Sleep paralysis (SP) is the same as REM-Atonia (linked through).
It is a paralysis of the muscles from neck down, while you are in the REM-phase of sleep, the phase, where you usually dream.
Usually you are not consciously aware of that - if you are - you are prone to hallucinations.

REM = rapid eye movement - when the eyes move rapidly - that corresponds to eye-movements in the dream.
They are not paralysed - moving them is not dangerous, after all.

If you read around a bit on the forum, you will find, that it is common to experience hallucinations in the transition from waking to sleep in both directions. It is known, that hallucinations tend to follow your emotional mind-set - if you are frightened - they will be horrible.
If you are not - they can appear for example as a beautiful mandala hanging in mid-air (had that - very nice).

From your thread: http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...-syndrome.html





> ...Classically with something jumping on the chest - doesn't have to be.
> Old Hag is a traditional Russian myth connected to the phenomenon - Christians used/use to call it Incubus, Germans often call it "Alp"...
> 
> Really many, many people experience SP at least once in their lives - seems LDing activities can lead to it - like forcefully waking yourself up, that's when I had SP.
> 
> Look:
> Sleep paralysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> What Makes Sleep Paralysis Scary | Sleep Disorders | LiveScience
> 
> ...








*Spoiler* for _Explaining the movie Matrix to Hummer_: 







> I do see the Matrix bandied about a whole lot here and yet I see scant attention paid to the actual script or plot of the film and almost none to the fact the *Neo's "out of Matrix" life is really tough, not wonderful "lucid dreaming."*



This is because he left the pod and cables, which enabled the shared simulation of the Matrix to get into his brain.
Outside he is an awake normal human in an apocalyptic world





> Nailer--
> I though I responded to this, but maybe didn't. *Who or what is responsible for this "construct?*" Is it used, as in the film, as a malevolent control device? *How is it "the population" comes to have this construct in their brains?* What do you see...though this construct, presuming you do see through it as a reality shell or screen?
> 
> Hummer



I recommend re-watching the movie.
Responsible for that construct are intelligent machines gone bad.
They use cables to insert the false experiences, the dream, the whole supposed reality, into the brains of humans.
That because they can only milk humans' energy, if these humans survive and are subjectively happy.
Hence the simulation.
It is plain science fiction with the motive AI (Artificial Intelligence) versus humanity - there is not one moment, where something supernatural is implied *at all*.
All the magical feats being performed are taking place only within the simulation, which Neo and his buddies learn to directly manipulate with their minds, while it is being fed into their minds by the machines. 

NO real life magic.





> Morpheus explains that in the 21st century, humans waged a war *against intelligent machines* they had created. When humans blocked the machines' access to solar energy, the machines instead turned to *harvesting the humans' bioelectricity* as a substitute power source, while keeping them trapped in "the Matrix", *a shared simulation* of the world as it was in 1999, in which Neo has been living since birth. Morpheus and his crew belong to a group of rebels who hack into the Matrix and "unplug" enslaved humans, recruiting them as rebels.

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## Hummer

StephL--
You ask so many questions it is not possible to respond to them all. 

No, there is not a "malignant being" as you call it which is why I put it in quotes. There is a program that is used and worshipped by more than a billion people, more than half the planet. This program, if you take the time to read the story of Joseph delivers dreaming and all meanings of dreams to said deity (program) in quotes. Much of that book, the Bible is about dreaming and control over it -- in my opinion. I am not going to provide you with chapter and verse -- if you are interested just type in Joseph on Google. 

My experience with the Flood is personal, not a theory, not something I can refer to a site for you. My experience of black sites is personal, not something I can provide chapter and verse on -- I mean particular dreams, the red pill variety I am not going to share with you in this hostile context, thanks.

You are responding to questions I asked of Nailer, I do not know why. I would prefer you didn't do so, makes thing confusing.

Thanks, I don't need to watch the Matrix again. As I said somewhere else it isn't about dreaming, it's about computers, "machines gone bad" as you say. 

It seems to me you are so...frightened because you might have to give up some of the "magic" the machines, like the machines of the body, because it just might be there is a "program" out there that needs to be identified, fought. There might be a shield of Athena protecting all kinds of powers and secrets that can turn you to stone for trespassing. It's much easier to call that "sp" and get on with the...videogame of dreaming which, from what I understand has no consequences in the real world.

Not a kind of dreaming I want, thanks--

Hummer

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## Hummer

MoonageDaydream--
Thank you for the reply. What happened after the encounter is I had to deal with an institution that says "love" out of its conscious mouth while having a secret covenant with the Dark Side at the same time in order to force those deviant souls still "in the dark" into the fold. 

This has entailed an enormous amount of energy as you might imagine and an extravagant amount of conscious or lucid dream work to deal with. Some of which went to helping to raise the Catholic sex abuse scandal to the surface though that is but the first layer of the sexual abuse of the Garden the Church commits.

Such work has taken nearly all of my time and energy since. 

Thanks.

Hummer

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## StephL

Sorry Hummer.  :smiley: 
I'll keep off you now.
I just hope you don't scare people off LDing or even sleep.

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## Sensei

@StephL mostly  :tongue2: 

I am not going to be doing any quoting, but this should answer all your questions. It should also (hopefully) make Christianity seem a little more clear to you. 
*
Why Christians Cannot Be Possessed?*

This one is quite easy actually. After reading your posts I don't see a single mention of Him. So we talk a lot as Christians about the Big man upstairs and the Messiah, but there is the third member of the trinity... The Holy Spirit. As soon as someone asks for Him, He comes in a possesses you. 

The Bible is pretty clear about humans having free will (If you ask me) so the only way to lose free will is to give it to something. You cannot have it stolen. I give my will to God, He gives me The Holy Spirit as a guide to His Will. Can't have God with sin, so Jesus has taken all of my sins, can't have God with sin, so no other entity could be inside of me either. 

*What Does The Bible Mean When It Says Witchcraft?*

Biggest rule of literal interpretations of the Bible:
What did the original author mean when he sent it to the original recipient?

Ok so you take something like Psalms. Songs to God. I can take that as just that, maybe some epic foreshadowing, but I can't take it away from that context. John, written to everyone that you might  believe. Etc.

So we look at witchcraft as it is mentioned in the Bible and what the original author meant, and we come up with 3 things:

People who prophesied from other gods about the future
People who tried to speak to the dead
Pharmakeia  (most common) (People who tried to speak to spirits with herbs and plants... you know... Pharmacy?  :tongue2: )

Not really Lding specific. So this moves Lding into another category:
Food Sacrificed before idols.

Before I get into that, I am going to talk a little about sin, since ya'll seem to be mislead about that as well. 

*Sin Defined*

James 4:17 actually gives you a straight up definition of sin
Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin. 

So wait! If you don't know it is wrong, then you aren't accountable for it? Is this the only verse in The Bible that says this? What about the people in Africa! Or people in Europe and Asia before Jesus died that don't know anything about the Bible?
Romans 5:13
for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law 

So sin isn't just doing wrong. It is knowing wrong and doing it. Let's take this to the beginning and see if it works.

God makes Adam and Eve and only one rule:
Don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die. 
So they only have one law to uphold. Sin in this world can only be done by breaking that one law. They broke it, but the tree had an after effect, it let them know of the other sins around, and they would now be held accountable to this. 
*
Why is there Judgement?*

So we take things back to the very beginning, and why did God make judgment for sin? Why not just let it slide? God makes things in an orderly fashion. Let's move this over to Lding terms. 

You create a universe in your head. You make rules, you say E = MC^3 instead of squared because you are the boss. Now there is tons and tons of rules to make (you know the scientific laws) and one of them is called The law of reaping and sewing You reap what you sew. So if you choose to sew carrots, voila, you get carrots. However there are three rules inside the rule of reaping and sewing:
You reap:
what you sew
more than you sew
later than you sew

think about it... ok good. Hosea says that if you sew to the wind, you will reap the whirlwind. Haha.

Ok, so God has these rules, and one of them is this if you break the law you will be judged by the law He created the one law at the beginning don't eat of the tree and they ate, so they sewed to the knowledge of good and evil, and sin and they reaped more knowledge of good and evil and sin. 

So sin entered the world, and death. Now God's rules for being with Him are simple nothing that is against Him can reside with Him Frick. That is everyone now that sin is in the world. Being a just God, he has to uphold the justice of the land that he set in place at the beginning. So people die, and after death, judgment. God always has a plan though because he is in past, present, and future. So what was His plan? He had another rule that was made, a loophole if you will. Blood can cover sin. Problem is, is that it has to be pure blood of someone undefiled by sin. Many will say here that the blood of bulls and goats covered the sin of people in the Old Testament. Not true. Hebrews 10:4

So Jesus comes to take away the sins of all, because no matter what any man wanted before, he wouldn't be able to get to God. Jesus takes away sin in the past, present, and future, so all you have to do now is believe in him. John 3:16, or a better translation would be trust. It is not works, and I will explain why. 

What do you need to do to be any religion? The first thing is to actually put your trust in it, and then you have a list of duties to do in order to get your sins removed. As a Christian is to simply trust in Jesus. Simple? I hope so. 

Verses that people leave out too much are the verses right after John 3:16 (this is verses 17-21)
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.

You mention God judging our every thought and judging Christians, there is no judgment for those in Christ. All my sins are gone.  :smiley: 

A true Christian would want to please God, and that if we truly believe, we will have a desire to change to be more like God. James says Faith without works is dead, giving the idea that if someone truly trusts in God, he will be changed, and want to please God.
*
Meat sacrificed before idols*

In Romans, we are told of meat sacrificed before idols. It is a type of meat that was sacrificed to gods in a city and then it was put on the market as a way to please their god. Some Christians said there is no way I am going to eat something that was sacrificed to an idol, and some said It doesn't matter if they set it aside for their gods, I can eat it. Paul tells them that they can do whichever they want, to some that it was a way that they left in the past it might be hard for them to do without wanting to revert to their old life, to others, it was just meat. So he said to make sure that you don't do something to make someone stumble, but all in all, there is nothing wrong with it.  So anything not mentioned directly in the Bible not to do (Fornication, stealing, lying, etc) is free game, it is for man to decide between him and God. 

You ask me what my teachers would say.

My head pastor trusts my judgment and doesn't care. 

Ok, so continuing with the story (I get sidetracked). We needed a sacrifice of pure undefiled blood. We got it, and it was Jesus. He laid down his life so that there would be no judgment for those in Christ. 

A little bit of a summary:
God makes the world and gives man dominion of it.
Man screws up.
God fixes it.

You want to know why God would send you to hell, but what I think is interesting is that you hate God and want nothing to do with him, so He is just giving you what you want, an eternity away from Him, and all things good (all good things come from God). 

Hope this clears things up for you! Sorry for all the delay. It is a lot for me to get to the computer, I actually really need to take a nap right now.  :tongue2:  If I didn't answer some questions, then I apologize.  :tongue2:  

I am sorry that you have so much hatred towards Christianity, I feel like a Christian wronged you in the past, we are not supposed to be judgmental, but extending love to all so that people might see our love and glorify God in heaven. Sometimes Christians don't act like they should, or they act out from bad teaching and misinformation. The most common is obviously how many Christians treat gays and lesbians. While a Christian should not do something that displeases God (lev 18:22), that does not mean that we should hold non Christians to the standards God holds us to. We are to extend grace and then show people how to achieve peace. Not the other way around. I love you and hope that you understand Christians a little more.

*Just Remembered!*
Having sex with my wife in a dream like masturbation? Maybe. The Bible doesn't really straight up say anything about masturbation, but it does say that "whoever looks at a woman and lusts after her is an adulterer at heart" which is the main reason people (other than catholics) are anti-masturbation. So...
1) I don't think that I can "lust" after my wife, since she is the person I should be imagining sex with
2) I still don't like the idea of masturbating whether to the idea of my wife or otherwise, but I think you might notice a trend in my dream journal of leaving out details (especially my thoughts) and thinking that DCs are real people. So I often think that I am actually having "dream sex" with my wife, because I am confused and less aware. Sometimes I simply cannot resist my dream wife because she is freaking sexy. I don't really have any guilt about it, though I do try to avoid it because dream time is precious and I can "Get some" in waking more than I LD.  :tongue2: 

More on the subject of what we think. What a man thinks in his heart (mind) so is he.

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## Hummer

StephL
I thought we were going interesting directions with the Scientology discussion -- that was you wasn't it?

And I think there are interesting directions we could pursue. I felt overwhelmed by your last response. 

Something that can be done by lucid or conscious dreamers involving "Scientology" is to audit something for accuracy or engrams, what have you. This entire discussion on is LD dreaming satanic? could be "audited" in that fashion without any fear of Scientology as a thing, Religion, which it is not. It is, in my opinion, an interesting addition to tool chest of a lucid or conscious dreamer.

I am very impressed with your use of the tool chest here to respond with. All I can do is type. Maybe you can help me out a bit?

What do you mean by "spoiler?"

Hummer

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## StephL

Huge Thank You Sensei - I will come back to it in a while - also to your post, Hummer.

Just shortly - a spoiler is a way to post something, without the wall of text being instantly visible - like for off-topic things, not to overly disturb the flow of the thread - I should use it more often, actually.
Once you click on the field saying "show" - you get to see the text.

The name 'spoiler' comes from situations like the following:
If you want to post something about a movie for example, but you want to make sure, that you don't _spoil_ the movie for a person yet to watch it - you hide the respective text with such a thing. It's an option under "Go Advanced" - looks like a double square.
So if this person simply doesn't click on it - she can watch the movie, without knowing everything up front.
By the way - if you wanted to multi-quote - you would click on the little '+' sign next to the "Reply With..".
And then the blue oval to the left under the last post - "+ Reply to Thread" it says.

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## StephL

I find a lot in your post quite bizarre Sensei, to be honest - but for now I'd like to tackle the matter of *witchcraft* on the basis of the three points, you provided me with. I think, my post suffices - I could go hunt bible quotes myself, though, and ask you how you come to know, how an author has meant something.
After more than a thousand years and translations and Catholic councils deciding around the 5th century, what goes in the bible and what not. And also in general - these people thought completely differently from us. Don't you notice that in the language? Right - sorry - witchcraft:





> So we look at “witchcraft” as it is mentioned in the Bible and _what the original author meant_, and we come up with 3 things:
> 
> *People who prophesied from other gods about the future
> People who tried to speak to the dead
> Pharmakeia (most common) (People who tried to speak to spirits with herbs and plants*... you know... Pharmacy? )
> 
> Not really Lding specific. So this moves Lding into another category:
> Food Sacrificed before idols.



Let’s see - is there a connection between LDing and these points – are they maybe intimately entwined with LDing?
It is implied that such feats are indeed possible - it wouldn't have to be forbidden, if it wouldn't work. 
*Lucid dreaming clearly is, and has been for ages, and all over the globe, the practice to do just exactly the things, you mentioned above.
*
If I wanted to contact spirits and the dead and have precognition - I would use LDing in the same way, that famous witches and sorcerers like Castaneda before me have.

Did you hear of Helena Blavatski? 
She coined the term astral projection (AP) - that was her occult practice among other things like seances - a very famous self-declared witch.
The very concept and practice of WILD has her signature all over it, if you check the internet.
There are so many more – just look into “Beyond Dreaming” on here for examples.

Coincidence??
I think not – and I could go on and on.

Again:
*Modern occult practice and old pagan religions traditionally see Lucid Dreaming as a means, even the actual portal to:*

** come to precognitive experiences (how can you be sure, who provides them?)
* to talk to dead relatives
* to speak with spirits
* And - many people use some sort of supplement, including herbs, including ones traditionally used in religious ceremonies of "paganism".*

There is serious science being done on connections between dreams, and especially lucid ones, and the substance DMT - which is the main ingredient of Ayahuasca. And consuming this herbal mix is allowed in certain parts of South America - guess for whom?
For somebody belonging to the* Ayahuasca religion* - however it's really called.
Taking it, is their religious practice, and scientists have reasons to believe the _experience is of a kind with LDing._
So there.

I would be really careful with LDing, if my soul depended on you, Sensei, understanding the criteria better than me!  ::wink:: 
Especially since you - wisely - don't tell your professor about it - you are not yet fully ordained, are you?
I don't want to spoil LDing for you - I hope I can't.
What do you think?



*Spoiler* for _For Hummer and whomever .._: 



OBE is the neutral term and it means Out of Body Experience - however brought about causally. astral projection (AP) is the mystical term. WILD is Wake Initiated LD - going from awake directly into the LD, which tends to come in a way, that the dreamer dreams a replica of his sleeping room, for one, and it can be experienced, as if you would leave a "physical body" with your dream-body, but both bodies are dreamt up.
Once you think Blavatzki and AP - you can dream yourself a silver chord as well. 
More common is simply starting the WILD with dreaming of getting up from bed with your usual dream-body - not having to "separate" and no chords. You get what you expect - and in WILD, you expect to be in your room and awake and lying in bed, still. I hope, I make sense here.




Disclaimer: I do not believe in gods nor witchcraft, just to make sure

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## StephL

What is the church you belong to called, Sensei - something evangelical and fundamentalist, I would guess?

I wonder - must not the church be the ultimate authority concerning all things to do with soul and mind?
So why don't they teach lucid dreaming - why don't they even know about it?
Or do they??
If so, why not ask? If not, how come they are ignorant of such a monumentally different state of being? 
Especially while other religions do deal with it and at times centrally.

Either they don't know overly much after all - or they consider it witchcraft and keep knowledge under the lid.
Which shall it be?

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