# Sleep and Dreams > Beyond Dreaming >  >  How To Protect Yourself From Astral Spies?

## deepthinkergirl

So, a friend and I who live about 3 hours apart have become in Astral Travel /OOBE's lately.  I've already done both, but he just downloaded a CD that will enable him to do it quite easily.  When I asked where he would go, he immediately said "I'm coming to see you".  I was kind of creeped out because I value my privacy and don't want someone spying on me, astrally or not!  I tried to ask him nicely not to do it, but I know he will, as he got all silly and excited.

I've never infringed on someone's privacy while astrally traveling...  I think it's wrong unless you agree to meet someone or something.

So how can I protect myself and my home from his prying eyes?  Will the protection of white light work, or do I need to do something else?

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## Motumz

Not to get off topic, but what CD did he buy?

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## Nighthog

Well I would think if your subconscious self doesn't want the company it will block it automatically, but also if it wants the visit it will happen even if you hesitate consciously. 

But I would rather ask why do you feel that you don't want a visit in the "dream" world by your friend? Will it not open you for some interesting experiences? I would say you have much more the learn from having the interaction rather than trying to block or run from it out of fear.
I ask what's there to fear?

About dreams, astral travel or OOBE's. They all happen the same in my view. They exist in the same place sharing the same laws. It's only your preconception that divides it. You have your "inner space" and then there is the outer shared space. 
What I've seen written about here in these forums is you are safe in your inner space if you don't want others there. But it's possible for others to visit and be about there even if you don't realize they were. I've seen many hints that this is the case. 
If you want to look at it higher, no one has any privacy, sure you have your privacy against others in 3D unless they haven't awoken and try these things out and don't dismiss it in their own travels out off 3D physical spacetime.

Putting up barriers and such sure can be achieved in dream state but do you really want all that? What I gather it takes much work and will. Have you much experience trying to use your dream powers? 
And the feat of getting to another persons inner world or going about the outer shared world usually requires a little practice and experience for it to happen at will.

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## deepthinkergirl

> Well I would think if your subconscious self doesn't want the company it will block it automatically, but also if it wants the visit it will happen even if you hesitate consciously. 
> 
> But I would rather ask why do you feel that you don't want a visit in the "dream" world by your friend? Will it not open you for some interesting experiences? I would say you have much more the learn from having the interaction rather than trying to block or run from it out of fear.
> I ask what's there to fear?
> 
> About dreams, astral travel or OOBE's. They all happen the same in my view. They exist in the same place sharing the same laws. It's only your preconception that divides it. You have your "inner space" and then there is the outer shared space. 
> What I've seen written about here in these forums is you are safe in your inner space if you don't want others there. But it's possible for others to visit and be about there even if you don't realize they were. I've seen many hints that this is the case. 
> If you want to look at it higher, no one has any privacy, sure you have your privacy against others in 3D unless they haven't awoken and try these things out and don't dismiss it in their own travels out off 3D physical spacetime.
> 
> ...




Nono, he wants to come visit me without my knowledge or warning in the _physical_ world, which is entirely possible through astral planing.  Which means he'll be able to see me if I'm in the bathtub, shower, etc etc.  It's well known that even if the person is in the astral world, they can still see the physical world.  (I know this from experience).

I'd love to meet up with him in a planned place if we both go under at once.  In fact, I told him that.  But he's insisting on visiting me as a surprise while I'm unaware.

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## Naiya

I wouldn't worry about it. Those CDs are a complete waste of money and generally will not make it easy for anyone to AP. I can AP very well and when I listen to those CDs or audio tracks, the sounds are so annoying/distracting that even I'm compeltely unable to do anything.

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## Nighthog

> Nono, he wants to come visit me without my knowledge or warning in the _physical_ world, which is entirely possible through astral planing.  Which means he'll be able to see me if I'm in the bathtub, shower, etc etc.  It's well known that even if the person is in the astral world, they can still see the physical world.  (I know this from experience).
> 
> I'd love to meet up with him in a planned place if we both go under at once.  In fact, I told him that.  But he's insisting on visiting me as a surprise while I'm unaware.



Well travelling in the physical plane out of body. I have not much knowledge about, but what I've seen and read thus far every instance where they could be travelling the physical it could just as well been the dream plane. 

I've seen hints to suggest if you aren't really sharp-eyed many will confuse the dream planes as being in the physical OOB. 
A dream world can be as real as the physical in every instance but.. If you brake something there or interact and then you get back to "awake" state you see nothing of what you did. Nothing changed. Even to have checked something like what card it was on the drawer might be different when you get back.
Because they were "identical" but still separate. 

I myself haven't found myself in the "physical world" but for sure in 100% real environments in the dreams. The house can be so identical to the physical but as you may look at some details you notice some discrepancies might be about. If you start to travel about when I exited the house.. well for sure things weren't the same.

I don't say I don't consider possibility I just say it's quite unlikely as there are so many other "instances" where he might end up instead.
Thought he can still go and see you "naked" in your dream body if he so wants... Maybe it isn't you but who is to say? 
It's very much about illusions. To see what is complete illusion or somewhat less takes a discerning mind and hearth.

I must mention I'm far from seeing all the illusions put in front of me.

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## juroara

When I first clicked on this thread, I thought you meant inorganic astral beings spying on humanity. But another human spying on another human through astral projection? This reminds me of when my sister told me if I ever do become a ghost, not to visit her  ::D: 

Anyways, I wouldn't be too worried about it. It looks like most people just astral project into the astral/dreaming world anyways

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## luciddreamer000

According to what I know about astral travelling, nobody can spy on anybody like that. They will be back in their bodies in a jiffy. If you don't want him spying on him, he can't, period. To make doubly sure, place a shield of protective light around you and affirm that nobody can approach you or spy on you against your will. You will be alright.

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## Baron Samedi

> Nono, he wants to come visit me without my knowledge or warning in the _physical_ world, which is entirely possible through astral planing.  Which means he'll be able to see me if I'm in the bathtub, shower, etc etc.  It's well known that even if the person is in the astral world, they can still see the physical world.  (I know this from experience).
> 
> I'd love to meet up with him in a planned place if we both go under at once.  In fact, I told him that.  But he's insisting on visiting me as a surprise while I'm unaware.



Let me relate my personal experiences.

When I first started doing astral projection, I thought it was a dream, and all the people were dream characters. Consequently, I always tried to look for naked women, believing them all to be manifestations of my own mind. 

I was always blocked from seeing naked women. I think it was my own subconscious or maybe a spirit guide that was preventing me from doing this, since I would never spy on a real person like that. I would feel horrible. Now, I know these people are real, so I don't even consider doing anything like that once I astral project.

As far as blocking your friend, you need to decide whether you want to have shared experiences with him or not. 

About preventing astral spies, the best advice I can give is to visualize what you want to use to block such spying, and it will basically automatically work.

I have little pods on my astral shoulders full of swarms of flies, which fly into the faces of astral spies. Last night, I made myself very very tiny to turn invisible to astral spies that have been spying on me for a long time.

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## evolution

> When I first clicked on this thread, I thought you meant inorganic astral beings spying on humanity. But another human spying on another human through astral projection? This reminds me of when my sister told me if I ever do become a ghost, not to visit her 
> 
> Anyways, I wouldn't be too worried about it. It looks like most people just astral project into the astral/dreaming world anyways



I have astro travelers invading my space at night and during the day, I need to find a way to block people from my space who are trying to enter without permission! There HAS to be a way.. a spell, something.. I've sprayed my apartment with black salt water, have white salt around the edges, I regularly sage, and all kinds.. have crystals in all corners. . NOTHING works, I have garlic over all the doors and on the window seals, but I need someone who actually KNOWS how to BLOCK people that think they can just go anywhere they want. And YES experienced travelers aren't just floating around, they are traveling with purpose. So please stop saying "don't worry about it" this is a real issue. Does anyone actually know?

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## evolution

Please let me know if you have gotten REAL help, I really need help also! See my comment at the bottom of this feed.

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## mBULXfhgBBwO

> Please let me know if you have gotten REAL help, I really need help also! See my comment at the bottom of this feed.



I can help with this, as i experienced a few things with "unwanted visitors".

Basically, this is all a consiousness thing, whatever affects your thinking, will affect your astral travels.

I had to deal with, dark looking creatures at one point in my travels, all i did was gain the confidence, confronted them, and chucked them far away from me.

As for other beings, like humans. Usually, it is a welcomed visit, the thing is. If you raise your frequency, nothing negative can touch you. You probably arent fearing a friend visiting you That's trusted, you're probably fearing a bad outcome by these encounters, but really. I guarantee you, there is nothing to fear.

Wonder why demons can't set a finger in the heavens? Cause the frequency will destroy them. So apply the same law here.

If you don't want someone invading your privacy, either start letting go of the fears which keep you locked in lower frequency states, or get the balls to say "fuck off this is my OWN area."

There are a lot of things about "raising your vibrations" and "frequency" online, if you look, they will probably say the same thing for the most part.

Stop worrying, the worry makes it worse.
If that for some reason doesn't work. Then try a "filter", meaning you are able to filter out negative astral energy/experiences just by feeling better, thinking better and having a strong willpower.

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## LighrkVader

I want to hear your story evolution.

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## shadowofwind

I think there are no good solutions for any of this.

If you think people are astrally spying on you, I think its probably mostly in your head, and has mostly to do with your own nature.  However, that doesn't make it easy to make it go away.  I also think that its possible for someone to invade your private space when you don't want them to.  Astral stuff is mostly pretend, and subjectively interpreted, but there's an element to it that's real.

I have an analogous kind of problem with what otherwise seem to be conventional dreams.  If there's something I can experience that I will react emotionally to, then I'll dream about it.  I doubt it has much meaning beyond that.  Its like I'm being trolled, as if nature wants to feed off of my attention.  Maybe a cure would be becoming a perfect sociopath, and not caring about anything, or getting 100% control over my own mental environment.  I don't think either would be practical or desirable.

I think what most people are calling astral travel is a conventional lucid dream with some extra-sensory experience worked into it.  I don't think there's such thing as a 'dream plane', its imagination.  The experience is compelling in large part because its a type of dream that a lot of people have:  'astral travel' is a collective idea, and we feel something of feel the power of the shared thought.  Religions and personality cults work the same way.  The experience is also compelling because of the extra-sensory or supernatural aspect to it, but that aspect is subtle, and the 'astral travel' experience is essentially a metaphor about that or an interpretation of it.

I doubt there's such thing as an 'astral plane' either, but I'm less sure about that.  Astral projection experiences I've had are subjectively quite a bit different than what I'm calling astral travel.  I think the astral projection itself is a type of lucid dream or hallucination also, though for me its a lot more direct and tactile.  

In the 'astral travel' experience, it is as if I'm capable of being two places at once, and I'm in my dreaming body, but also feeling things elsewhere.  It is as if two different places are somehow also the same place, so I can reach everywhere, but I'm asleep in my physical body, dreaming.  The 'body' I'm travelling in is a projection in the sense of something that's being extended by my imagination.  I'm in an imagined world that looks like the real world, and includes extra-sensory feelings from the real world, but its not the real world.  I can feel my imagined body, temperature for instance, but its a dream, like being on a holodeck.

With the experience I'm calling 'astral projection', in contrast, it feels like I'm wide awake in the real world and physically separated from my real body.  The visual experience is a hallucination, in much the same way that waking life visual experience is a hallucination constructed from real sensate information.  But it feels like I'm physically in the real world, which is overlaid by the hallucination.  I think the contrast between where I feel I am and where my body really is makes me more aware of my capacity to experience that, and this is the main difference compared to 'astral travel'.  In other words, the 'astral' experience is imagined in both cases, like a movie, but in the 'astral projection' experience the juxtaposition of competing impressions makes me more aware of the screen the movie is projected on.  Maybe that 'screen' has something to do with my 'astral body', if I have such a thing.

My doubt of the reality of the 'astral plane' is not a doubt in the reality of supernatural things.  The reason I doubt ideas about the astral plane, is that recognizing what is real about an astral plane would require being able to distinguish that from what is imagined and essentially made up.  Few people are even attempting to do that, most people are having experiences based on collective astral plane ideas taking those at face value.  Having an experience before having read about it or talked to anyone about such things is evidence that we're all psychic, but it doesn't prove that the experience is 'real'.  (These 'astral' ideas are in a lot of ways not very old, and are based to some degree on misunderstandings of 19th century science, even though they also draw inspiration from Vedic teachings and ancient Greek philosophy.)

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## shadowofwind

This gives me another idea....

According to Theosophists (the late 19th, early 20th century philosophical cult that promulgated most of our 'New Age' ideas), the practice of astral projection is unhealthy.  According to them, the 'astral' and physical bodies should work together, and when they're intentionally separated, the connection between them breaks down.  They claimed it can lead to demon possession and insanity.

This belief seemed somewhat plausible to me, since from a materialist, atheistic standpoint, astral projection amounts to training your nervous system to tell you that you're somewhere you're not.  Any kind of systematic dishonesty seems to me to point towards mental illness.  I also agree that astral projection makes no sense as a 'spiritual path':  it does not seem at all plausible to me that it leads eventually to 'ascension'.  My claim here though was that astral projection is to some degree a collective phenomena, supported by a sort of psychic group-think.  Part of the reason I say that is I don't think my own experiences have been entirely the creation of my own subconscious, I think I've been drawing on something else.  If that's true, then it would make sense that it also correlates with mediumship, since that's the same kind of thing.  And uncontrolled mediumship amounts to insanity.  So maybe its not the 'separation of inner bodies' that's problematic so much as the mediumistic tendency that facilitates astral projection to start with.  The Theosophical interpretation seems plausible to me also though, even though I don't have any confidence in it.

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## PrisonPlanet

I once tried a lucid dream experiment, going into my neighbors house, looking for magazines or something specific i could remember the next day. Unfortunately it wasn't successful. Ive read others online tried similar things but also failed..was just curious how exactly does someone in obe see whats going on in physical world?

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## PrisonPlanet

Not to be coy but I dont understand the term uncontrolled mediumship. I assume mediumship implies communication between living and the dead. Supposedly there's numerous ways to communicate with the dead, electronic voice phenomena, automatic writing, ouija boards, ect (im certainly no expert but spent time researching most of them) anyway i dont understand whats exactly controlled and what the  repurcusions could be. Ive heard of individuals casting various protection spells. I personally dont know what i believe (or whats real) i suppose if someone really wants to wake the dead, it sounds interesting, but should have a really legit plan if shit goes south.

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## shadowofwind

PrisonPlanet:

In response to your first question, some people who have posted in this forum claim to be able to get real information during astral travel or other lucid dreams.  My guess about that is that they are getting some real information, but however that works has nothing directly to do with the lucid dream, which is a story about it or a way of explaining it to themselves.

From what I understand, seances were quite popular in the late 19th century, declining and mostly fizzling out more recently.  When I said mediumship I wasn't referring just to channeling 'dead people', I'm including so-called aliens or any kind of spirits.  Uncontrolled means that you can't prevent it from happening, the spirit gets into your thoughts whether you want it to or not.

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## PrisonPlanet

Thanks for feedback, im still somewhat confused about things. In particular, i thought my initial reply was sent to deepthinkergirl (i could be wrong) who said its "well known" in astral world people can see in physical world. I was under the false impression its not. I wouldnt jump to conclusion its blasphemy but if its well known..why not provide an explanation how it happens?  Why leave everyone else in the dark?

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## shadowofwind

PrisonPlanet:  In theory, the physical plane resides in the astral plane, which is in an even more abstract 'life' plane, which is in a 'light' plane.  And all of the planes are in a nested sequence of worlds, which are in an analogous sequence of spheres.  There are also sub-planes within the planes, and even sub-states within the sub-planes.  This was according to various occult teachers including Rudolph Steiner, who also founded Waldorf schools, Max Heinel, who founded one of the Rosicrucian orders (not Crowley's), and many others.  Some of them use different words and change it around a bit, but the general outline is similar.  They would say the consistency was because they were all perceiving the same higher reality, but its primarily because they were all plagiarizing the same sources.  

The description of recursive realms tries to describe something of how karma becomes physical objects and events.  Things appear in the astral plane before they appear in the physical plane.  So in that sense, if you can see astrally, you also have an idea of what is happening physically.  And maybe some people can overly impressions of both planes at once, I can't think of any reason that wouldn't be possible.

I accept as fact that there is some kind of way that fate or providence creates events, because there is an overwhelming amount of evidence for it in my own experience.  I don't believe that anyone has the descriptions right though.  The theory doesn't fit with what we know about how chemistry works in the physical world, for example.  Also, I've met a lot of people who believe in these higher realms, but whenever I've asked questions about it that could potentially be answered through direct experience but which isn't in any of the books, nobody can ever do anything with that.  The concepts themselves are vague and involve a lot of handwaving, and if you look for further clarification where some of the details seem to break down, nobody ever clarifies anything.  They just say "if you experience it you'll know", or some other evasion.

Here's one example.  The four planes and their 'higher vibrational states of matter' are sort of based on the four Greek elements of earth, water, air and fire.  But solids, liquids, and gases are actually made of the same elements, and the elements themselves aren't even in different 'states' or 'phases'.  The states are statistical properties that describe something of how the elements are interacting.  A single atom or molecule doesn't have a 'state' or phase:  when liquid water condenses out of water vapor, the atoms themselves don't change at all.  Even the amount of energy they have doesn't change, except in terms of entropy:  kinetic energy has no meaning for a single particle in isolation from everything else.  (Angular momentum has meaning in isolation, but that has nothing to do with where states of matter come from.)  People have taken these ancient Greek attempts to describe the physical world, which aren't even correct for the physical world, mixed in a lot of other metaphors about 'vibrational frequencies' drawn from 19th century electromagnetics, and tried to extend it to describe how karma manifests.  How to make sense out of that?  Its like a clockmaker trying to form a cosmology based on the idea that the solar system is a big partially invisible mechanical clock.  It only seems plausible to a clockmaker who doesn't understand much beyond clocks.

A criticism that people have made here is that my scientific mindset has complicated my thinking and prevents me from being able to directly perceive subtler truths.  I think that's nonsense for a number of reasons.  First, I'm not the one who's a slave to intellectual models in the context of higher worlds.  That's everyone who believes the dogma about those things.  Also, these ideas about higher worlds are theories just like how science attempts to develop theories for things.  Its true that the subject matter is almost impossibly difficult to study, but the theories are attempts at explanation.  If you're going to attempt that kind of explanation, then you're trying to do science.  And if you're going to uncritically regurgitate other people's attempts, and they haven't admitted and honestly grappled with any of those issues, then that's junk science.  People trust the 'wisdom of the ancients', but the same people who brought us that 'knowledge' mixed it with a lot of stuff that's objectively wrong.  For instance, there are supposed to be four types of civilizational 'ages', and various sub-ages, corresponding to the four elements, and those are supposed to have existing on our present physical earth.  But there's no plausible way to square that with the geological and fossil record.  And even if we court insanity by discarding all physical evidence as untrustworthy, the theories themselves still have internal inconsistencies.

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## PrisonPlanet

I not very familiar with the rosicrucian order but it sounds like one hell of a party. Supposedly heindel claimed that he was visited by a spirit that revealed to him a number of mystical facts that inspired him to form an organization. Perhaps you can say the same about joseph smith..or even ron hubbard. Who's got the right answer? kabbalah, scientology, rosicrucians, ..ancient alchemists using mysterious techniques??? Beats the hell out of me. I think some people will search relentlessly their whole lives (for evidence of psychic phenomena or supernatural beliefs) others it may just fall into their lap. Anyway appreciate your opinion and have a good nite.

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## shadowofwind

Heindel's "knowledge" was almost entirely copied from Blavatsky's books, no matter what his followers say, and she was a prolific plagiarizer also.  I also think his order was a joke.  His Rosicruician Cosmo-Conception book is pretty easy to read though, if a person wants an overview of that thought system, though its mostly dead now.

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## Darkmatters

I'm pretty ambivalent about all the Hermetic and esoteric stuff - not sure what to think of it all. I think there's a lot of great wisdom there, but often obscured for various reasons. For one I keep hearing that when you read anything, even the most seemingly authoritative books on the subject, it's been altered so that parts of it are deliberately wrong, so only initiates are getting the real teachings. Though I think large parts of what you can read in many of the books are unaltered. You just can't tell which parts. 

Basically, much of esotericism and Hermeticism is just comparative religion and spirituality, comparing all the various systems to each other and extracting the core truths that are common to all. That can be very revealing, and I find it often far more useful than only studying one particular religion as a devotee. Plus I'm loving reading up on esoteric meanings behind scripture and various stories. The Bible is taking on far deeper and more profound meaning than I ever thought it had before, and I'm seeing the same truths now in other religions as well, told in various ways.

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## shadowofwind

There aren't any true initiates or real teachings, its a scam of fabricated and plagiarized half-truths all the way to the end, notwithstanding that there are deeper levels of BS that only a select few are let in on.  This is one of the few things I found out that I'm sure about.  

My favorite gospel, by a wide margin, is Gospel of Thomas, though I doubt that its authentic either.  My favorite part of the Bible is Jonah, especially Jonah 2.  I like Ecclesiastes also, though I think its a bit overly pessimistic, if you can believe that coming from me.

I took it all quite seriously at the beginning, trying to deepen my understanding by pulling at the threads that didn't seem to make sense.  At took about 6 years for it to come completely unraveled for me.  I guess 6 years isn't very long, but I'm still pissed at the insincerity of the people who promulgated it.  

On the positive side, one value of it is it provided a way to exercise that part of my mind.  I also learned that there's an awful lot to reality that I don't see or understand, notwithstanding that nobody else understands it either, apparently.

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## Darkmatters

_"I think its a bit overly pessimistic, if you can believe that coming from me."_ _YOU!??_ Pessimistic? _Never!!_  ::chuckle:: 

I want to say much the same thing here I just said on the other thread. I hate to keep bringing up _'semantics'_, but it's a little more than that really - it affects what we think each other is really saying, and we might just be talking past each other with no real understanding. 

When you express _'doubt'_ (  :Shades wink:  ) that the Gospel of Thomas is _authentic_, what do you mean? Just that it wasn't written directly by Didymus Judas Thomas? In that case I don't think any gospels are really authentic. Or do you mean that it doesn't really relate sayings from the historical Jesus? Personally I don't think that has much relevance to anything Biblical. I think the historical Jesus was probably largely just something to hang the already ancient teachings on, though I think he was aware of them and probably did preach much of what was attributed to him. But of course all the Biblical figures were based to some extent on real people, but modified in whatever ways were necessary to include the powerful mythological aspects. 

But to get back to the Hermeticism, I keep hearing that all the various groups are nasty little cults, rife with horrible internal politics and abuse of new members. There's no way I would ever want to join such a group, I'd content myself with reading the books. And I do feel like there's some wisdom or at least some useful ideas in there, though it's hard to separate them from the gibberish. But I'm wondering, if you look at the Qaballa for instance, I mean the central image of it, the symbol for the _Tree of Life_, with the _Sephirot_ (spheres) on it:


I see it largely as an amazing template that can be used to find balance in your life. I suppose it also implies all kinds of supernatural stuff, if you get deeper into the initiation levels or whatever, but I know nothing about that and don't really care to. But I'm wondering, if the upper levels of the Tree of Life really don't refer to God or if the Limitless Light (Infinite Love) really is only metaphorical or refers only to our own ideas about love and compassion etc, I think it's still a pretty incredible thing. It can really help you think through things in a much deeper way, or so it seems. 

I haven't really looked much into Astrology or the Tarot, but it seems like, the way they're presented in the Golden Dawn methodology and the ones derived from it, they also might be extremely useful not for divination or fortune telling or any such thing, but for psychological work or helping you make sense of dreams and life. They're really just symbols that can help us order our thinking, just as the Bible parables do. 

I guess I'm talking about the difference between taking it literally/superficially as something supernatural, or using it as a complex and multi-layered tool for self-exploration, which is how it's all been presented to me. This aligns with what I've been learning about Esotericism (the Ancient Wisdom as it's called), which says the Bible and all other ancient works of religion and spirituality have different levels, a surface one to be taken literally for people who see things that way (_"Milk for the children"_), and then a deeper level that's read metaphorically and contains the real wisdom (_"Meat for the adults"_), which is missed by a surface reading. This is all stuff I've been discussing at greater length on the C G Jung thread.

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## LeaningKarst

> I see it largely as an amazing template that can be used to find balance in your life. I suppose it also implies all kinds of supernatural stuff, if you get deeper into the initiation levels or whatever, but I know nothing about that and don't really care to.



I hear it has some pretty interesting uses.  :;-): 





> Last night, I happened to come across a drivers manual. Maybe it was the semidarkness, or what you had said to me, but I began to imagine that those pages were saying Something Else. Suppose the automobile existed only to serve as metaphor of creation? And we mustnt confine ourselves to the exterior, or to the surface reality of the dashboard; we must learn to see what only the Maker sees, what lies beneath. What lies beneath and what lies above. It is the Tree of the Sefirot.
> 
> You dont say.
> 
> I am not the one who says; it is the thing itself that says. The drive shaft is the trunk of the tree. Count the parts:  engine, two front wheels, clutch, transmission, two axles, differential, and two rear wheels. Ten parts, ten Sefirot.
> 
> But the positions dont coincide.
> 
> Who says they dont?  Diotallevis explained to us that in certain versions Tiferet isnt the sixth Sefirah, but the eighth, below Nezah and Hod. My axle-tree is the tree of Belboth.
> ...




Thats from Umberto Eco's novel _Foucaults Pendulum_, by the way. I highly recommend it.

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## Darkmatters

Haha!! That seems more like an example of somebody taking it too far. Or - maybe starting to see right through the physical world and to see the inner meanings of things? The structure of Being? Or maybe he's just off his meds...  ::lol::  (and there's that connection between madness and divinity... )


 :armflap:  ::D:  :armflap: 


I've borrowed the book from Archive.org - had to install Adobe Digital Editions software in order to read it. Pretty excellent so far - I've seen video of Foucault's pendulum tracing lines in the sand, so I understand exactly what he's describing at the beginning. And I can already tell this is going to be good. It manages to be foolish, profound (perhaps overly so?) and hilarious all at the same time.

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## shadowofwind

DarkMatters,

I can see that the Qaballah is useful as a way of organizing thoughts about certain things, which can be a significant aid to development.  But it also imposes a structure of that to a large extent isnt really there, and thats distorting and limiting.  I think theres also something profoundly imprisoning by thinking of any of these kinds of models as truths, though Im not sure I completely understand why.  When talking to a believer, it is almost as if theyve been hypnotized or something.  Theyre ideologues, and Ive been one also.  Their thoughts go along certain lines which prevent them from really perceiving and engaging with anything that falls outside of that.  There seems to be almost no real communication, they only hear whats permitted by the model.  So almost no new understanding or experience comes from the dialogue.  Once Ive gained whatever new perspective that Im capable of thats possible inside a system of thought, then its a waste of time after that.  So Ive generally lost interest in all such models.  The Theosophical zodiac is the one I know in the most depth though.

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## Darkmatters

> DarkMatters,
> 
> I can see that the Qaballah is useful as a way of organizing thoughts about certain things, which can be a significant aid to development.  But it also imposes a structure of that to a large extent isn’t really there, and that’s distorting and limiting.




Ok, I can definitely see that. Yes, if you use a template like this to order your understanding of the world, and especially if it becomes so important that you filter everything through it, it becomes a sort of dogma or imposes strict limitations on how you perceive everything. Like a political ideology or religious dogma. I hope I don't reach a point where it becomes that all-encompassing for me, like an addiction. So far I'm pretty good about recognizing if something is becoming an addiction and I just drop it.

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