# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity >  >  Stop Drop and Roll. Why Lucidology and Nicholas Newport are creating misinformation.

## spaceexplorer

Hi Everyone.

I just wanted to put a warning out there for newbie lucid dreamers, and those of you who have perhaps come across the work of Nicholas Newport aka Lucidology.com or luciddreamtricks (on youtube).

It would seem that what we have here is an individual who is looking to promote themselves as an "expert" in the field of lucid dreaming to earn a quick buck
.
However, it's important to note that Mr Newport, has no qualifications, history or any clear experience to justify his choosing to call himself an expert.
It does get worse though, having watched all his videos, I would warn any newbie lucid dreamer, to IGNORE his suggestions. You will be wasting your time.

Most if not all the information is incorrect at best. At worst it is completely misleading.

Also bear in mind that his ultimate goal is to convince you of his expertise so that you will then part with your cash for  stage 2 of the course.

He uses an array of marketing and advertising tricks to try to fool you.
He firstly, has created his own language for lucid dreaming.
Including methods, terminology and buzz words.
He's basically trying to reinvent the wheel, so he can then claim he invented the wheel and sell it to you.
What right has he to invade the subject of lucid dreaming, call himself an expert, and then confuse and mislead people by creating new terminology for methods and terms that are embeded in the culture of lucid dreaming?

Secondly, he trys to blind you with "science". I put science in quotation marks, because it is far from science. It reminds me of infomercials, and shampoo adverts where they say "here comes the science bit", then show you a load of meaningless graphs and numbers, all that make no sense, just to confuse you into thinking they know what they are talking about.
He DOSN'T know what he is talking about.

Let me take an example:

In his STOP DROP AND ROLL video
A ten minute long video, that can basically be summed up in one sentence: "if you're trying to have a wild, don't move too much"

But here are the huge flaws in his theory:

He claims something called Mind Body Independence
saying: _mind body independence.  The mind never knows precisely what the body is doing and vice versa._

He then trys to prove this by stating that hair grows on your body, and your mind dosn't know about it, or that digestive systems work without the mind being aware of it.

Kind of vaguely true on the surface, but he takes these and other similar points, then draws the conclusion that: The body will test to see if the mind is asleep by sending (here comes his own terminology) roll over signals.

A roll over signal _apparently_ is any urge to move, or any pain in the body, when trying to go to sleep. These are "test signals" being sent by the body, to test if the brain is asleep (rather than just maybe, being uncomfortable.)

What he fails to address is: WHERE IS THIS DECISION BEING MADE?
Which part of the body, *independent from the brain* chooses to send a signal to test the brain? The spleen? the testicles? the heart?

Also he fails to recognise that the mind and body are NOT INDEPENDENT
there are a complete system in constant communication via the NERVOUS SYSTEM. 

He also fails to recognise that Sleep Paralysis (which he claims is a choice made by the body when it thinks the mind is asleep) is actually as far as science knows, controlled from within the brain pons region of the brain.


There are endless contradictions to science, the science of lucidity, basic biology etc. etc. etc. throughout his videos.

If i had the time, I would like to break down each of his videos and point out the flaws and misinformation in them. Unfortunatly I do not have the time. 
May I suggest it possibly a DreamViews project, that intelligent memebers of the forum, help educate the new members to the misinformation in these videos?

Anyhow, just a warning. 
Don't believe everything you seen on YouTube.
Be extra wary when someone is trying to sell you something, and trying to blind you with made up science and lots of graphs, that if you take the time to look at, actually MAKE NO SENSE.

Lucidolgy.com may not be exactly a scam in the classic sense of the word.
But it is certainly hugely misleading, misinformation and bad for the subject of lucid dreaming. Its close enough to a scam for my tastes.

Be warned.

----------


## Sentaku

I agree.  A lot of the stuff he preaches about doesn't make sense to me at all.

Hopefully not EVERYONE falls for it! =]

----------


## spaceexplorer

> I agree.  A lot of the stuff he preaches about doesn't make sense to me at all.
> 
> Hopefully not EVERYONE falls for it! =]



I just think the guy is dangerous to the lucid dreaming community.

What he's basically doing is trying to create his own terminology, so that he then becomes "the expert", because people have to go to him to understand this new terminology. Not to mention all his methods being based on nonsense theories.

Unfortunatly, he has a real salesman way with him, and seems to be sucking a lot of people in.
I wish people were smarter, and stopped to think about what he was saying, or actually paused the videos and looked at the graphs critically... because if they did, they would realise, it really is just a bunch of lines and made up terms, showing you nothing whatsoever.
All his so called "science" is actually complete and utter nonsense he's made up.

I really think the community needs to stand up against this sort of thing.
Sooner or later we'll be overwhelmed with people who's first encounter with lucid dreaming, was through a virtual conman on YouTube.

It's bad for the subject and the community, and it makes me really angry.

----------


## Tara

While his "science" is off key, the method still works. He does use some common terms such as 'WILD' and his videos are neat, organized, and visual, which can be helpful for someone who does not benefit from our tutorials which are mostly just text.

Take Jeff777's tutorial for instance. It basically teaches the same technique, but is purely text. The videos have graphs and diagrams that allow LDers to visualize what he's saying.

I've had success with it and so have others. With new LDers, writing up a tutorial that says something simple like 'When you WILD, don't move much', they always have a lot of questions afterwards. Newport's videos are in depth and captivating.

I agree with everything you said about his flawed science, but if the method works, let people enjoy the videos.

----------


## spaceexplorer

> While his "science" is off key, the method still works. He does use some common terms such as 'WILD' and his videos are neat, organized, and visual, which can be helpful for someone who does not benefit from our tutorials which are mostly just text.
> 
> Take Jeff777's tutorial for instance. It basically teaches the same technique, but is purely text. The videos have graphs and diagrams that allow LDers to visualize what he's saying.



At least the text here is by people who are accountable to the community.
If something is wrong, or incorrect, people can come and share their information. No one here is trying to set themselves up as an expert, or trying to sell a course, like newport is.
As for his graphs... have you taken time to pause the videos and really look at them? they are meaningless, seriously, im not being silly, they are actually just random lines, with random made up terms. They tell you nothing. They serve only one purpose... to make him LOOK like he knows what he is talking about.






> I've had success with it and so have others. With new LDers, writing up a tutorial that says something simple like 'When you WILD, don't move much', they always have a lot of questions afterwards. Newport's videos are in depth and captivating.



They are certainly not indepth, in fact they are quite the opposite, they are taking a simple idea, then streching it out over 10 minutes, and making claims that are simply false. Sorry i really can't agree with you on this.
Captivating? only in the same way that an infomercial is captivating.





> I agree with everything you said about his flawed science, but if the method works, let people enjoy the videos.



Because he is misinforming people, in order to eventually get them to buy his course.  
I appreciate you are trying to be nice about it, but yes maybe small parts of what he says have some truth in them... but does that excuse all the false, untrue information?

I would prefer that the subject I love be taught by intelligent, caring people who genuinelly want to share information. Not just cash in.

----------


## Robot_Butler

I just watched his videos the other day.  They are terrible.  As I said in the other thread, I keep waiting for him to throw in a free Shamwow.  In general, I hate to criticize anything that encourages people to lucid dream.  His advice, however, is terrible.  I agree with you 100% Spaceexplorer.

----------


## sora12

The only thing that I really used from Nick Newport is his lucid timers which mostly work for me. I will agree with you however, that he does seem to project himself as an "expert". Although, I follow some of his advice, I'd never buy the lucidology 102 package, and part of the reason why is how he's always trying to sell it off at the end of each of his videos.

----------


## Sentaku

Ya, I use his flash timer thing to do some EILDing =P

That's about all I really get out of this guy.

----------


## Kanious

I don't know why but i can't watch these videos at all...

They feel so...so...pseudo-real...

----------


## Sentaku

He says he got all his information from reading books and taking his methods from there to give them to you.  Why would you pay someone to spew summarized crap that they read that doesn't even make a whole lot of sense in the first place?

----------


## Shift

*I agree 100% and think that this should be stickied in the newbie zone.*

Spaceexplorer is right- as a lucid dreaming community we should so our best to warn those getting into the topic before they waste time, become misinformed and confused about topics like SP, and more importantly lose motivation or interest or belief in lucid dreaming due to such incredibly terrible videos.

----------


## Hukif

O.o, seriously? I never watched these videos but it already sounds bad...
I like the idea of going through the videos and killing hte myths, didn't we have a myth buster team somewhere in LD general discussion?

----------


## KingYetiTeffa

I watched the stop drop and roll video. I think only that one, can't be completely sure though.

What I liked was that at the beginning of the video he said that when your body sends/receives a roll over signal, you should do your damnedest to resist it. Then he spends the rest of the video saying that you have to give in to it two or three times.

And he finished it off with the obligatory 'What everyone else says is wrong and is LIES LIES LIES! Only I know the truth!'

Massive ass of a man he is.

----------


## Shift

Lies, Truth, and doesn't even know what SP is.  ::roll::

----------


## Wildman

Hmm, I too watched only the stop drop and roll video from him. I thought it was OK, although somewhat confusing at points and seemingly contradictory sometimes. I do think there is some truth to the whole idea of "roll over signals," I haven't had that much experience with it myself but a lot of threads I've read related to WILD and dream re-entry seem to at least mention this, if not make a big point of it. I'll be more wary with his material if I ever watch more, though.

----------


## Kangaxx

I watched like 5-6 videos, and to tell the truth i thought he actually knows what he is talking about.
I'm thinking that a way to counter his videos is for someone to make video responses, explaining how wrong he is. One for one video.

----------


## seriouscentaur

But what does it matter if his science is wrong so long as it gets people lucid?

----------


## DreamQueen

Yeah it's a form of dishonesty to claim to be an expert in a particular field and then go on to state your own ideas and opinions in a way that suggests they are scientifically-backed facts, eg by speaking authoritatively and presenting meaningless graphs. I'd say the guy has experienced lucid dreaming sure, but he's no more knowledgeable than most of our regular DV members. He's just putting on a teachers cap and speaking in a convincing sounding manner so that newbies will think he's the lucid guru.

Reminds me of an evangelist.

Should definitely sticky this.

Good thread monkey  :wink2:

----------


## seriouscentaur

Oh I didn't realize. What could he possibly teach that would be so bad though? Isn't just hyping LDing up a good thing, since then it's on your mind more and you're more likely to do it?

----------


## spaceexplorer

> But what does it matter if his science is wrong so long as it gets people lucid?



Hmm, 
Dangerous way of thinking that.

It's a bit like saying... Oh, what's the problem with building a house on quicksand as long a it keeps the rain off your head.

The answer to your question is: Strong foundations.

See, the way i'm seeing all this is, when I was a kid and first discovered lucid dreaming (or realised it was a real subject), I was lucky enough to discover the work of Laberge. Now, If i was a kid now, there would be the risk I'd discover this clown, and mistake his salesman confidence for genuine knowledge.

He would have screwed me over completely, i'd have built my knowledge on lies. Eventually sooner or later, It'd crumble around me.

Would you rather your knowledge be based on fact or fiction?

If you care about the subject, as I do, then do you want new people discovering the subject to be learning well, or being misinformed?

The only way science and knowldge progresses is through being critical and  thoughtful in our approach. How can new discoverys be made, if the foundations of your learning are based on misinformation?

This guy, has perhaps 1% of truth and 99% misinformation.
Do the maths... is that a good deal?
Do you want to be putting in a 100% effort into someone who is only teaching 1% truth? that means 99% of your effort is being spent learning nonsense.

Also do you want to try and explain lucid dreaming to someone, using this guys ideas, and then, because the person has half a brain they point out that 99% of what you are saying is nonsense?

----------


## seriouscentaur

I don't get it though... what about lucid dreaming is so truth-based anyway? Isn't it subjective? (Except for scientific facts about sleep cycles and what not.)

----------


## spaceexplorer

> I don't get it though... what about lucid dreaming is so truth-based anyway? Isn't it subjective? (Except for scientific facts about sleep cycles and what not.)



Oh dear, 
You're worrying me.
If you're not careful, you'll be one of this guys victims too.

Seriously, i've been lucid dreaming for all my life now.
The experience of lucid dreaming may be subjective, but then so is the experience of learning chemistry.
But no one would claim chemistry is a purely "subjective experience".

When discussing any subject, im sure you'll agree, it's best to have the facts straight and your information correct.

Your questions are more philosophical, and can be applied to any subject.
When dealing with methods, science and knowledge of lucid dreaming... let's just accept that thousands of lucid dreamers and researchers have established basic knowledge on the subject, and that this guy is selling information that not only contradicts but misinforms people.

Do your self a favour, avoid this used car salesman... unless you want to get halfway down the road and your lucid engine explode on you.

----------


## DreamQueen

> I don't get it though... what about lucid dreaming is so truth-based anyway? Isn't it subjective? (Except for scientific facts about sleep cycles and what not.)



A small minority of people can lucid dream naturally and easily, but for most people achieving lucidity requires quite a bit of effort and requires the use of specific techniques. This guy is taking those techniques and well basically complicating them by throwing in a whole lot of scientific-sounding jargon and BS.

It's like he's trying to teach people to get across a stream by following a long, winding arduous track up a mountain then climbing over some rocks and coming back down the other side when in actual fact there's a footbridge right in front of them. That's the best analogy I can think of right now sorry!  :smiley:

----------


## spaceexplorer

He's basically trying to make the subject SOUND really complicated
and he's creating his own jargon that only HE knows.

Why?

Because if it's really compliated and only he understand the jargon then
PEOPLE NEED HIM... it makes HIM important and HE becomes the only expert  (because he made up the jargon and made it all sound complicated)

He wants to confuse people, because confused people are EASY targets to sell to, especially if HE is the only person sounding confident.

But, he's MAKING IT ALL UP.
It's nonsense.
It's not based on any evidence, experience or understanding.

Don't fall for it.

One perfect example is that stop drop roll video.
He has taken 10 minutes to explain something that can be said in one sentence: Don't move to much when you are trying to have a WILD.
(the rest of the 10 minutes is filled with nonsense and misinformation)

Now, is spending 10 minutes of your time listening to nonsense, and ego trip worth it?
When you could just come onto a forum like this and spend ten minutes reading condensed intelligent, experience based knowledge?

I'm not sure if Newport is a con man, or self deluded or both.

----------


## Quaddro

I also agree that his videos are extremely time wasting, and have minimal amount of thruth in them.

----------


## Robot_Butler

> Oh I didn't realize. What could he possibly teach that would be so bad though? Isn't just hyping LDing up a good thing, since then it's on your mind more and you're more likely to do it?



This is my normal feeling with videos like this.  When it comes down to it, the ability to lucid dreaming is mostly based on firsthand experience and practice.  I normally support anything that motivates people to try.

My problem with the videos is that they present false information and claim it is a summary of all the information out there.  The presenter says, "Don't read all these books on lucid dreaming.  I'll just sum it up for you for four easy payments of $19.95."  Then he proceeds to present crap he just made up.  

It is one thing to describe your personal system for becoming lucid.  We all have quirky things that work for us as individuals.  It is another to make it seem like it is a summary of accepted knowledge. 

I don't want to dis the guy too much.  I'm glad he is spreading the word about lucid dreaming.  I also know how hard it is to simplify this subject.  You have to make your advice practical, without oversimplifying it to the point of it becoming false.  I wonder if he has an account on DV.  I would like to hear his side.  I feel bad having everyone attack him.

----------


## MrDamon

I have a friend online who has purchased the 102 set and he has reported to me that it is 99% astral projection.  And of that 99% there is a ton of fluff and possibly only 10% relevance leaving the rest as bad practice and shortcuts to the wrong road.

So all you dreamers here, dont waste your time thinking about whats behind door number 102, you're better off in the hands of the seniors here at the forum.

----------


## Supernova

See, this is why I would be very worried if Lucid dreaming became popular to the point of going mainsteram.  I would be afraid that everyone would get their info about it from some moron like this, because that's how stuff starts to degrade when it becomes mainstream.  Perfect example: martial arts.  70%of the people teaching it nowadays are teaching some new age pseudo-martial arts bullshit just to make a profit.  

More on-topic: all this guy is doing is spewing some made up bullshit that sounds legit to make a quick buck off of it.  I'm with Shift, this thread should be stickied in newbie zone.

----------


## seriouscentaur

yeahhh i just watched a few and i see what you all mean now. Some of the stuff he says is helpful, but it's all so stretched out and chock full of lame graphs and unnecessary terms it'd be hard to watch more than three episodes without taking a break to smoke a joint and shave off the beard you grew while he was talking. 

Also, I didn't know he was charging money. That's not cool. -_-

----------


## Sentaku

> I'm with Shift, this thread should be stickied in newbie zone.



I'm with Shift and Supernova, this thread should be stickied in the newbie zone

----------


## lemmefly

> However, it's important to note that Mr Newport, has no qualifications, history or any clear experience to justify his choosing to call himself an expert.



Well, he is the founder and admin of the saltcube website, with thousands of posts on the topic, which is qualification enough for me. He used to call himself Matt Jones, but it's the same guy (if you look up his old posts on saltcube, they all changed from Matt to Nick). I'm not quite sure what other qualification you would expect someone to have to call himself an expert on lucid dreaming.

On the topic of those videos, I can partly see what you mean, but I would not assume that he is just out for a scam. He obviously has found a way to induce LDs that works very well for him, and he thinks that it will work well for others too.

Nobody is denying that he is trying to make money off his video series (lucidology 102), but the videos on youtube are free of charge and, taken with a grain of salt, they are just as good a start into the topic as any other medium. Still beats not having any idea of how to induce LDs at all. As I see it, he is basically just strongly promoting WBTB, which is a fine thing to do for beginners. Also, using a timer to keep you on the threshold of sleep without having to use visualization is not the worst thing to get your feet wet. After a while you should get annoyed enough by this to just learn WILDing without external devices, but by then you may at least have the motivation it takes to learn it.

Anyone who is really interested in LDing should be intelligent enough not to trust one source of information only, but rather keep on searching the internet and bookstores for different viewpoints and angles to the topic (like this forum or the LaBerge books).


However, I agree that not all he says should be taken as the one and only truth. It seems that some of the information he provides there is just to give some (seemingly) logical explanation and fill some gaps in order to make the whole program seem more coherent.

Let's just not bash him too hard. I used to frequent the saltcube website before I found DV, and some of the information there even helped me to some of my earlier experiences. Also, Nick always seemed to be helpful to anyone asking questions on the forum, thereby basically giving away all the information in the videos for free. Nowadays saltcube has gotten kinda boring, but thats another story.


Again, anyone who has a sincere interest in the topic (or in any topic, fwiw) should be smart enough to seek out as many information from all kinds of sources and get his or her own picture. As for some youtube kiddies who are looking for a short thrill and could slightly be mislead by those video...well, what can I say, I couldnt care less about them.



Just my 0.02$

----------


## DreamQueen

> As for some youtube kiddies who are looking for a short thrill and could slightly be mislead by those video...well, what can I say, I couldnt care less about them.



Do you mind if I ask why you couldn't care less about these people?  :smiley:

----------


## lemmefly

> Do you mind if I ask why you couldn't care less about these people?



I dont mind.

Anyone who is sincerely interested in lucid dreaming and wants to learn the skillset involved deserves my respect and should get all the help in the world.

As for these halfhearted early quitters ("I have tried to LD for almost 3 days now and still no success, this is all fake, I think i'm gonna quit" etc.) - you guys know who you are  :smiley:  - they are the people I am talking about.

If you dont really want this and put effort into it, it's just not gonna work out for you, thats why I couldnt care less for these people (regarding LD of course, I'm not some kind of misanthrope).

Hope that clears it up.

----------


## Xaqaria

I watched the video, and even with no sound (my girlfriend is asleep) it was actually pretty good. Who cares if he uses his own language to describe it? I personally get annoyed when people enshrine Laberge's language like it is the definitive way to describe lucid dreaming. WBTB, WILD, etc... all of that was just laberge doing exactly what you accuse Newport of doing and he is making much more than just a quick buck off of the whole thing. As far as I can tell, what he is doing is *absolutely no different* than what goes on at this site, except maybe that he makes pretty professional looking videos to accompany his tutorials; something some of the members here should start considering to get us a little more face time with the public.

I'd also like to know how many of you that are bashing the videos as 'made up crap' have read Jeff777's tutorial that presents almost identical info as the stop drop and roll video. Jeff, I think these people just called your stuff crap.

----------


## DreamQueen

> Hope that clears it up.



Yep, it does thanks  :smiley:

----------


## Xaqaria

I got on here to say, I actually just incorporated some of his technique's into my nightly ritual of attempting lucidity. I haven't had much luck with getting lucid in months and had one of the most amazing and easy WILDs I've ever had in my life just between my last post and this one. I didn't follow his technique explicitly, and just supplemented other things I've done in the past but boy did it do wonders.

----------


## spaceexplorer

Xaqaria, for a start, WBTB is not a term coined by Laberge.
And without LaBerge, I'd be willing to put money on Lucid Dreaming still being vitrually unheard of... to you and me both.

And what Newport does is very different from what goes on on this site.

*This site:* people come together, share there ideas, work together, develop ideas, for a community etc.

*Newport:* Runs his own forum (so HE is in control, becomes the expert)
Makes a load of videos, claiming everyone else is wrong and only HE knows the way to make you lucid.

And whoever it was who said that Newports credentials are "running a forum."
Is that all it takes to get a qualification nowadays?
Would you let someone who ran a forum for Pilots fly a plane for you?
Hell, im going to go make my own brainsurgeon forum! 

Most important factors with Newport to me are these:

* He claims only he is right.
* He Bashes every other lucid dream technique
* He rewrites the terminology, so that only he is the expert in terminology.
* He deletes critical or questioning comments from his youtube videos.
* His information is basically false and misleading.
* His Graphs, if you take the time to look at them, make NO SENSE.

----------


## Xaqaria

One way or the other, I've been lucid dreaming for about 17 years now and still found instant improvement by just incorporating some of the ideas he presented in one video. I'd say this is enough evidence to not try to scare people away from what he has to say. I didn't get half as bad an impression from what I saw as the one you are presenting here, and the diagrams in the stop drop and roll video are actually very straight forward and mirror a lot of the info available here and elsewhere. If you'd like me to explain them to you, I'd be more than happy to. Anyone who has had trouble with WILD's would benefit from a better understanding of what he has to say about the "roll over signal".

I have to ask though, I didn't read through all of the info available from this guy so I'm wondering, where exactly did he claim only he is right and bash every other lucid dream technique? The only thing I saw that might apply to what you are saying is the bit that showed all of the books he read but couldn't find the info he was looking for, and the bit where he says that Reality checking is an unreliable technique. Reality checking is an unreliable technique, and at least I personally have had absolutely zero success with it even though I consider myself a fairly skilled lucid dreamer.

I will say now, the information that I saw is not wrong. The Roll over signal stuff is spot on compared to my own experiences prior to having watched the video, and is extremely similar to stuff you can find on dreamviews, particularly Jeff777's tutorial on making your body fall asleep.

----------


## spaceexplorer

> One way or the other, I've been lucid dreaming for about 17 years now and still found instant improvement by just incorporating some of the ideas he presented in one video. I'd say this is enough evidence to not try to scare people away from what he has to say. I didn't get half as bad an impression from what I saw as the one you are presenting here, and the diagrams in the stop drop and roll video are actually very straight forward and mirror a lot of the info available here and elsewhere. If you'd like me to explain them to you, I'd be more than happy to. Anyone who has had trouble with WILD's would benefit from a better understanding of what he has to say about the "roll over signal".
> 
> I have to ask though, I didn't read through all of the info available from this guy so I'm wondering, where exactly did he claim only he is right and bash every other lucid dream technique? The only thing I saw that might apply to what you are saying is the bit that showed all of the books he read but couldn't find the info he was looking for, and the bit where he says that Reality checking is an unreliable technique. Reality checking is an unreliable technique, and at least I personally have had absolutely zero success with it even though I consider myself a fairly skilled lucid dreamer.
> 
> I will say now, the information that I saw is not wrong. The Roll over signal stuff is spot on compared to my own experiences prior to having watched the video, and is extremely similar to stuff you can find on dreamviews, particularly Jeff777's tutorial on making your body fall asleep.



At least Jeffs tutorial is open to discussion and

Ok let's try a different approach...

Which part of the body would you say "tests the mind to see if it is asleep" and then sends a "roll over signal"?
As the guy says, it's testing the brain, so without the brain where is this amazing bit of self awareness existing in the body? making it's own choices independent of the brain?
The heart? the spleen? the lungs?

I'm not saying staying still during WILD attempts is a bad idea.
I agree fully, i think that you will feel the need to move etc.
However, the idea that the body is testing the mind, is lets face it, in complete contradiction to what we know about the body, mind and sleep paralysis.

What I would say is occuring is sensory magnification.
As your sensory input diminishes from the external world, there is more scope for your mind to focus on the smaller details, the itches, the aches etc.
They become magnified. And because we are consciously aware, rather than in our normal drunken style falling asleep mind, the process is far more direct and intense.

It is not the body testing you, it is sensory input distracting you.
And to fall asleep properly, you want to dissassociate from sensory input so that your mind is free to create it's own world based on internal data.

So if this guys MAIN theory, is based on nonsense. What does that say about the rest of his work?
Sure the CONCEPT of staying still may work, but if the THEORY is jibberish, that dosn't say much about the teacher does it?
Which books was he reading exactly? the medival book of biology and witchcraft?

As for the graphs, i can understand exactly what he is doing... making them up as he goes along. They serve no purpose other than to make him look "scientific".

So yes, staying still works. 
We all know that.
Making up 10 minutes of nonsense to convey a really basic idea that can be said in 10 seconds, and then trying to build a theory that contradicts biology and psychology... well sorry, but the guy reminds me of a 10 year old who has read a book on dinosaurs and now considers himself the world expert. He's got that same patronising tone, and the same "ooh look at me arn't i clever" attitude.

Great if it works for you, but considering the theory and concepts are based on something some guy has plucked out of the air,
I'd say score one placebo and suggestion.... and a horrific loss for logic and reasoning.

----------


## DreamQueen

I agree with spaceexplorer. It's just ridiculous to claim that the "body is testing to see if the mind is asleep". What next? The bedside lamp is testing to see if you've gone to sleep so it can switch itself off?  :tongue2:

----------


## spaceexplorer

And yes, his diagrams and graphs, really help simplify what he has to say (sarcam)

 

I mean look at this... seriously.
WTF was this guy on some kind of LSD and Crayon spree?


Now, look at that "helpful diagram"
and compare it to this sentence: *If you want to move whilst falling asleep, try not to.
*
(and remember, this is one diagram from a ten minute video, a video that also can be summed up in the above sentence)



The guy is one big Red Herring.
He overcomplicates the most simple ideas, in an attempt to sound intelligent whilst at the same time confusing, muddying and throwing misleading information around.

The only "urge surge" i get from watching these videos is to puke.

----------


## moonshine

> I agree with spaceexplorer. It's just ridiculous to claim that the "body is testing to see if the mind is asleep".



Yeah, I would have to agree that thats rubbish. 
But I wouldn't get to worried about it. Obviously he's refering to a part of the mind testing whether you are awake by generating urges to move the body. 
I'm not sure it really matters, the end result is the same. 

I'm torn on this one. I think Astral Traveling is a piece of nonsense. 
Theres also no way in the world I would pay for 102.  

But some of whats described which corellates to my WILD experiences. 
At least half the times I've wilded I've actually done so not long after rolling over. 

I've come to realise that lying perfectly still isn't completely neccesary. 
That it is possible to move and still enter SP quickly afterwards. 
I've never quite understood why. That It may be to do with catching these "test signals" seems to make sense to me. 

I also found the staged relaxation techniques to be quite good.
The first time I tried the stop drop and roll technique it worked for me. 

I'm not a 100% sold on it by any means. But I did enjoy the videos and do feel they added to the breadth of my knowledge.

----------


## çrepgrigo

> I mean look at this... seriously.
> WTF was this guy on some kind of LSD and Crayon spree?



That graph is explaining that in the "Urge Surge" scenario, the urge to roll over slowly increases, and then becomes very intense for a short moment, then goes away.

Not saying I agree with any certain person's views here, just explaining to you what that graph means.

----------


## spaceexplorer

> That graph is explaining that in the "Urge Surge" scenario, the urge to roll over slowly increases, and then becomes very intense for a short moment, then goes away.
> 
> Not saying I agree with any certain person's views here, just explaining to you what that graph means.




Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote?
I'm fully aware of the point he is belaboring to death.

My point is not "what does the graph mean", fortunatly I do have a functioning human brain - and regardless of the messy nonsense of the graph, im well aware of the point he is trying to make.

My point is: Why create a mangled confused mess of a graph/diagram to explain something that can be said in *one sentence*?

The Graph/Diagram serves no purpose other than to create the illusion of intelligence/authority on his behalf, or to add an air of "science". It certainly 
does nothing to clarify or simplify the situation.

It's advertising spin. It's designed to confuse with seeming information overload. It's an old advertising/political/hypnosis trick...
Confuse the mind with statistics, facts or whatever... then throw in your sales line. Because the mind is bored of the confusion and lack of clarity, it latches on to the easy to digest punch line. Watch politicians, they do it all the time... i'll make up an example of what a politician will often do, it is only the final sentence that they wish to embed:


"Juvenial crime statistics show us that, in deteriorating urban enviroments, at least 24% of the ethnic minoritys, that account for 56% of the larger populous, are victim to racial offences. This can be easily seen through a statistical breakdown of the figures between 1996-2006 in which the percentage of criminal damage in the mid ranges, for the period of july to september 2006, is exactly 22% above the mean average of the proceeding years....  _Of course, if we raise taxes, we can afford more police, which will help deal with these issues._"

(ok it's a bit of a silly example, but maybe it gets the point across)

This is exactly what newport is trying to do. 
Confuse a simple point, to create an air of authority and understanding in himself, so that the punchline "buy stage two of the course" becomes more appealing.


Plus I find the whole "urge surge", "brain and body not being able to communicate directly", ""learn the special language of how the body tests the brain"... to be, frankly, a load of old bull.
What is happening is an amplification of bodily sensations due to a lack of sensory stimulous. 
God, you can prove it yourself, put some ear plugs in, close your eyes, and try and sit still for 15 minutes. Suddently the little bits of discomfort and itchy feelings are amplified...

Is this the body "testing the mind to see if it's asleep"?
or is it simply: noticing the little things, because most of your sensory input has been shut out?

Or if you want a more poetic example...

You can only see the stars at night, because the sun has set.
During the daytime, the sun is so bright in comparison, that it overwhelms the starlight. The stars havn't gone... we just can't see them because something much brighter is there to overwhelm it.

If you swap the word Sun for "sensory perceptions"
and the word stars for "minor bodily sensations"
it's the exact same thing.

What Newport is saying... is that the stars don't exist when the sun is up, and they only appear BECAUSE they are some kind of magical test.

Wheres we all know, the stars are always there, we just cant see them unless the more important, brighter distractions are out of the way.

----------


## JeremyLeroy96

yeah i watched his videos and were so confusing and what is the difference between a lucid dream and an OBE

----------


## Drogo

> yeah i watched his videos and were so confusing and what is the difference between a lucid dream and an OBE



In his videos, it seems OBE = WILD and LD = DILD, just how I interpreted it.

----------


## mrToad

Whether his graphs make sense or not, they were confusing to me. I understood some parts, but overall I was confused. So, that's lame.  :smiley: 

And, my personality is, I'm not interested in a lot of hype. As it did appear a lot of hype. Very classic salesman type approach.

Doesn't matter if some parts are true. Whenever someone tries to mainstream something, it's for profit. And, to make profit, you have to make the product look like the only irresistible and perfect thing in the world, which is usually just hype.

Boorrring.

If you're interested in something, avoid the ones who go out of their way to appear they are the authority on that something. It's just a principle I live by in general.

----------


## spaceexplorer

I think he dosn't want to make a distinction between OBEs and Lucid dreams.
He can make more cash off of both groups that way. Marketing and sales seem more important to him.

Shame he hasn't got more integrity, because it's confusing people, and may put off some decent newcomers to the subject.

----------


## JeremyLeroy96

yeah it's true his videos made my friend give up because it was too confusing i told him i found and ignored those videos the 5 layers of lucid dreaming really helped me

----------


## DreamQueen

> yeah it's true his videos made my friend give up because it was too confusing



This doesn't surprise me. I think if I'd found his videos before I'd actually had a lucid dream I may well have decided lucid dreaming was baloney due to the new-agey psuedo-scientific way he's presenting it.

I have a hard enough time convincing people who know and trust me that _"yes you really can become aware that you are dreaming and carry on with the dream and it is actually an amazing experience"_. If I started presenting graphs and diagrams to them that were confusing and complicated they'd lose interest for sure which would be such a shame.

----------


## MrDamon

> It's advertising spin. It's designed to confuse with seeming information overload. It's an old advertising/political/hypnosis trick...
> Confuse the mind with statistics, facts or whatever... then throw in your sales line. Because the mind is bored of the confusion and lack of clarity, it latches on to the easy to digest punch line.



Unfortunately i have to agree with you on this one, I was very disappointed to see the way he presented everything in the videos and instantly recognized this silly sales angle and was not impressed.

It was easy to see that he is aiming for the not so knowledgeable practitioners out there with his laughable science terminology that he makes up on the spot _/facepalm_





> Shame he hasn't got more integrity, because it's confusing people, and may put off some decent newcomers to the subject.



This is my fear also  :Sad:

----------


## SKA

I saw 5 minutes of their Lucidology bullshit movies and I lost interrest and became frustrated with their overly american, marketting kind of way of presenting Lucid Knowledge.

It's very obvious these people are offering POOP information with the pure intent of making loads of money.

Maybe they really have found good lucid methods, but even in that case they're explanation of it is shitty. I've the same problem with them as with some "spiritual" gurus;
Too far fetched, too complex, too much details, too much symbology.

I prefer more sober and simple ways of going about lucid dreaming: Like dream yoga; very clearcut and very practical.

----------


## Xaqaria

> At least Jeffs tutorial is open to discussion and
> 
> Ok let's try a different approach...
> 
> Which part of the body would you say "tests the mind to see if it is asleep" and then sends a "roll over signal"?
> As the guy says, it's testing the brain, so without the brain where is this amazing bit of self awareness existing in the body? making it's own choices independent of the brain?
> The heart? the spleen? the lungs?
> 
> I'm not saying staying still during WILD attempts is a bad idea.
> ...



He never says that the body sends messages to the brain, he uses the word mind. What I take him to mean by this is the conscious mind. There are parts of the brain that only deal with bodily functions and there are parts of the brain that only relate to a person's conscious self. Most likely, these signals are coming from the medula oblongata and are going through the nervous system and back up through the sensory receptors that connect to the conscious mind.

These signals are real. Sometimes they come as a phantom itch, but sometimes they are purely just an urge to move and are not accompanied by any specific discomfort. In some people, this urge to move is over-active and then it is called Restless Leg Syndrome.

If you have had enough success with WILD's, you will start to realize that many WILD attempts will be accompanied by this urge to move, and if you manage to ignore it, the vibrations will follow directly afterwards, which then lead to sleep and your lucid dream.

----------


## spaceexplorer

> He never says that the body sends messages to the brain, he uses the word mind. What I take him to mean by this is the conscious mind. There are parts of the brain that only deal with bodily functions and there are parts of the brain that only relate to a person's conscious self. Most likely, these signals are coming from the medula oblongata and are going through the nervous system and back up through the sensory receptors that connect to the conscious mind.
> 
> These signals are real. Sometimes they come as a phantom itch, but sometimes they are purely just an urge to move and are not accompanied by any specific discomfort. In some people, this urge to move is over-active and then it is called Restless Leg Syndrome.



Sorry, I still don't buy it. 
You're very good at trying to justify the vague statments Newport makes, and I give you credit for that. However, his own videos, "from the horses mouth" as it were, he makes much less coherent sense than you do.
He makes claims like "the body never really knows if the mind is asleep or not"
Which part of the body does the "knowing" or "not knowing?"

You can try and justify what he says, but my direct experience of his videos, claims and his seeming "knowledge" do not paint a picture that convinces me whatsoever that he knows what he is talking about.

I still firmly believe that the sensations to move etc whilst falling asleep are not "tests" from the body, they are simply amplified physical sensations and discomfort because your sensory input is limited and so has little else but them to focus on.





> If you have had enough success with WILD's, you will start to realize that many WILD attempts will be accompanied by this urge to move, and if you manage to ignore it, the vibrations will follow directly afterwards, which then lead to sleep and your lucid dream.



I am lucky enough to have experienced hundred of WILDs in my life.
I have never had to force myself to stay still, not once.
I don't think the problem is the urges to move, and having to ignore them.
I think the problem is paying-to-much-attention to the physical body.
You can force yourself to stay still, but if you are still focusing on the physical body, how on earth can your mind shift its awareness into its own internal model?

I've had WILDs moments after scratching an itch, 
moments after moving into a more comfortable postion (in fact often moving into the more comfortable postion was all i needed to do to fall asleep faster)

I genuinely believe from my own experience of many many WILDs, and from plenty of discussions about such things, that your body certainly does not have some kind of "mind testing" system built into it.
I am also convinced that the itches, urges to move etc. are ONLY a problem if you let them be. Only a week ago, I was laying in bed waiting to drop off, 
spent about half an hour feeling just a bit too hot and uncomfortable, so stood up, turned the bed sheets over so they were cooler, then got back into bed... within seconds the dreamscape formed around me.
This is after completely giving into the urge to get more comfortable.

I really think that all that happens when you fall into the dream is this:

Your brain/mind shifts its awareness from external stimulous to internal generated modeling.

Whatever you do that makes you focus on the external, is going to be counterproductive. Even if what you are doing is focusing on ignoring the urge to move... because that is still an external focus.

Best advice I can give to people, is relax, let it go, give the external world the bare minimum thought as possible... if your uncomforable and it's forcing you to focus on the external, move a bit to get comfy.
Just don't obsess about it, because that obsession is still external focus.
You want external focus to just fade out so internal focus can take over.

One trick that is similar that I use, is if i hear an external noise distracting my mind, and forcing me to focus on external waking reality, I will try to override that noise with an imaginary tune, or if that isn't easy, i will use the external noise as a basis for an imaginary tune (say the beep of a car alarm would become a beat in a tune in my head)... this way the external influence gets lessened.

But saying "absolutely ignore any urge to move"
is a bit like saying "don't think about a purple penguin"
It is self defeating, it creates a focus on the very thing you shouldn't be focusing on.

Sure not moving is definitely benificial. But only if it is pointing your mind in the direction of internal focusing. 


So sorry, I appreciate your attepmts to justify Newport, I just absoultely do not agree with either his theories, sales style, need to be an expert... well everything he's doing pretty much. 
It's confusing and misleading the subject of lucid dreaming.
And it's a subject I care to strongly about to stand by and ignore this kind of nonsense.

----------


## Unelias

> I wonder if he has an account on DV.  I would like to hear his side.  I feel bad having everyone attack him.



Somehow I have a feeling he wouldn't have the courage to come here, since that would effectively crumble his status as "an expert", since this site is full of veterans of lucid dreaming.

Anyhow, I opened his site and I thought I had accidentally misclicked myself to TV-shop site. However accurate or valid his information could possibly be I just cannot make myself to read the site which yells right on my face : "BUY MEEEEH!"

Maybe I have some time later on to watch those videos and evaluate them. Still, my opinion is that communities like DV is a lot better way to dive into LD than some salesman. I am not saying whether someone could get new tips and ideas out of him, but I wouldn't want to get started by buying his "package". 

But people need to make there living and is there any way easier than ripping people off on the internet?

----------


## moonshine

> Sorry, I still don't buy it. 
> You're very good at trying to justify the vague statments Newport makes, and I give you credit for that. However, his own videos, "from the horses mouth" as it were, he makes much less coherent sense than you do.
> He makes claims like "the body never really knows if the mind is asleep or not"
> Which part of the body does the "knowing" or "not knowing?"



Yeah. But thats a scemantic take down. 
Technically you're quite correct, but practically, what difference does it make? I watched the vids and knew what he was getting at.
I mean, the body does actually have a mind of its own right?






> I still firmly believe that the sensations to move etc whilst falling asleep are not "tests" from the body, they are simply amplified physical sensations and discomfort because your sensory input is limited and so has little else but them to focus on.
> 
> I am lucky enough to have experienced hundred of WILDs in my life.
> I have never had to force myself to stay still, not once.
> I don't think the problem is the urges to move, and having to ignore them.
> I think the problem is paying-to-much-attention to the physical body.
> You can force yourself to stay still, but if you are still focusing on the physical body, how on earth can your mind shift its awareness into its own internal model?
> 
> I've had WILDs moments after scratching an itch, 
> moments after moving into a more comfortable postion (in fact often moving into the more comfortable postion was all i needed to do to fall asleep faster)



In my mind human physiology must have a way of determining whether the mind has drifted asleep. I've no idea if this particular theory is right, but it does chime with my admittedly limited WILD experiences. 

I've had a number of wilds where they've occoured just after I've moved, or turned etc. In my mind this imight be because its not a steady state test - i.e. on or off. You just need to catch the wave, so to speak.

That said it does bear looking into. I mean, sleep mechanism have been studied so you'd hope there was some substantiated research which validates the same.

I'm going to take a step back from my previous assertions because theres a danger that I may be blithely accepting something simply because it ties up with my beliefs.
Pretty much in the same way someone might accept Astral Planes and OBEs. A nice story, but nothing to back it up.

----------


## spaceexplorer

> In my mind human physiology must have a way of determining whether the mind has drifted asleep. I've no idea if this particular theory is right, but it does chime with my admittedly limited WILD experiences.




Interesting point Moonshine, and as you know I always respect your opinion, as we generally share the same distaste for nonsense and pseudoscience.

I'm unsure if the body would need to be aware of the conscious minds current state in the way newport suggests, because I think it is a huge oversimplifcation and misleading way of looking at the human system. If you consider the body to be the tool of the brain/mind, then you could consider the argument in a similar way to this statement:

Does a car know when the driver is no longer in it?

However in reality, with the human brain-body scenario, the car and the driver are one organism. So things are not this simple.

I suspect what happens whilst falling asleep is not some kind of divide between mind and body. I suspect that brain/mind and body fall asleep in unison. I would imagine the process is far more based around a hormonal and chemical basis  that effects the entire human entity rather than some kind of "psychological testing game between the independent mind and body" that Newport suggests.

Or lets look at things from a different perspective:

You can choose to go to sleep (this is a psychological choice that will effect the biological system)
or
You can feel so tired, that you have little choice but to fall asleep.
(this is a biological choice that will effect the psychological system)

Sleep is not a choice of the mind, that the body then has to test and respond to. Fatigue and tiredness are system wide responses to certain conditions. 
Factors such as circadian rhythm, hormonal levels in the body (depending on the activity levels proceeding them), sleep cycle stage, light sources, external cues etc. etc. are all going to create a symphony of signals to both mind and body, that in turn set of a system wide response.

In the same principle that a cup of strong coffee, can wake you up (because the caffeen enters your bloodstream and hence effects your entire system)
Chemicals released in either the brain or the body, will effect your levels of awarness and need for sleep. Melatonin being one example. If it's in your bloodstream, it's going to effect both body and mind.

*Why would the body need to test if the brain is asleep with an urge to move, if it can simply respond to the homonal levels in it's bloodstream?*

It's all too easy to focus on dreaming and sleep as a purely psychological issue, when in many cases our psychology is a slave to our biology and hormones. 

I think staying still, can help some enter WILDs not because it is "tricking the body", but because reduced activity in the body will help facilitate the following: 

*less external signal strength to occupy the mind and hence keep its focus looking outwards rather than turinging inwards.

and

*A lowering of "activity" hormones which will counteract sleep inducing hormones.


I don't think you can "trick the body into thinking the mind is asleep". That just a bit simplistic and childish in my honest opinion.
I would imagine, it's similar to the process that when you put on a fake smile, your body will actually start to produce chemicals releated to happiness. 

I also think that overplaying the "staying still" part to falling asleep, as newport does, is as counterproductive as tossing and turning constantly.  There are partial truths in what he is saying, but the theories and majority of information is misleading.
It's the old saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and the concept that a lie told with a pinch of truth, is far more convincing.


Falling asleep, should be a passive retreat from the external world. A letting go.
Too much mental focus on "staying still", is not a passive activity, it's an active process even if your body seems inactive.

I think a healthy, common sense middle ground should be the way to approach the idea.

That's my take on it.
Fits far more with what i've learnt about biology, sleep and psychology 
than the sound-bite, informercial pseudoscience that Newport claims to be an expert in (god, even the sticking "ology" at the end of the word lucid, says enough about his approach to me)

----------


## moonshine

Thanks SE. Interesting stuff. 

I just did a bit of a web search on Triggers for REM Atonia, Sleep Mechanisms etc to see if there was anything out there. 

Can't say I found it. 

I have to say, theres every chance that REM Atonia can simple be triggered by the chance in brain waves as we relax into a more meditative state.

Another thing. The body test thing would surely work 1st thing at night as equally as it might during prime REM time. As we all know though it doesn't.

Hmmmmmmmmm. I have to say, I'm stepping back from my previous position on this, cos really, something so fundemental should be reported in the scientific community.

----------


## spaceexplorer

> Thanks SE. Interesting stuff. 
> 
> I just did a bit of a web search on Triggers for REM Atonia, Sleep Mechanisms etc to see if there was anything out there. 
> 
> Can't say I found it. 
> 
> I have to say, theres every chance that REM Atonia can simple be triggered by the chance in brain waves as we relax into a more meditative state.
> 
> Another thing. The body test thing would surely work 1st thing at night as equally as it might during prime REM time. As we all know though it doesn't.
> ...



An interesting study to look into was conducted my Michel Jouvet in 1965.
Jouvet using a small heated wire, destroyed a small portion of the Pons region of the brain in Cats (the Pons is situated on the brainstem, the bottom of the brain that links the brain to the spinal cord. It's apparently responsible for processes such as respiration, the heart and liver control.

_To quote wikipedia: The pons relays sensory information between the cerebellum and cerebrum, aids in relaying other messages in the brain, controls arousal, and regulates respiration (see respiratory centres). In some theories, the pons has a role in dreaming._)


Anyhow, 
By destroying a portion of the Pons in Cats Jouvet noted that during REM, the cats were no longer subject to paralysis, and instead acted out their dreams. Jumping on dream mice etc. etc.

What's interesting about this study, in relation to this discussion, is that it is clear that SP is not a bodily response to an inactive brain (as Newport states). In fact, it is seemingly a process in which the Pons is a vital element.
Perhaps this is triggered by an increase in certain hormones.

Another important factor in this discussion, is that sleep paralysis is a REM based phenomena. In NREM sleep, the body is not restricted (hence why sleepwalking, talking etc. occur in NREM).
This point contradicts Newport even more, as we all know that NREM sleep the brain/mind is at its least active of any state. Whilst in REM sleep the brain is technically more active than when awake.

If Newports theory that the body were to send test signals to the brain discover if it were awake or not, and if upon discovering it were asleep, would then enter SP, THEN, how can he account for zero SP in NREM? when the brain is least likely to respond or show any activity?

Sleep Paralysis is clearly a defensive mechanism, to avoid us acting out our dreams. I would probably take a guess that the Pons activates sleep paralysis when a certain level of a certain type of brain activity is reached.
Rather than it being a response to low brain activity, i would hazard a guess that it is a response to increased brain activity, the kind of activity that is unque to REM sleep. 

SP is not a function of the body in response to an inactive mind, but it is a built in process of the brain, a kind of firewall that blocks signals from reaching the body.

It is stuff like this that makes me think that Newport is basing his theories not on established knowledge, but on what "sounds like it might be true".
And for me, I'd far prefer my knowledge and understanding to be based on facts than what someone "thinks might be true, decides they are an expert on, and then makes a bunch of infomercial videos to make some cash".  :tongue2: 

Anyway, check out the study if you can find it, it's fascinating.

----------


## arby

AS AN ATTEMPT TO DEFEND JEFF'S TECH, NOT NEWPORT

The thing that is really throwing this argument off are the words we are using. They are really mis-leading. OBVIOUSLY the body cannot send mental signals of it's own, and obviously it takes it's orders from he brain as to when it falls asleep.

But the "sleep check" signal exists. What is it exactly? I heard a really great theory from billybob once, it is a last-resort check when you are lazing around/lying in wait to tell if you wish to remain conscious or fall asleep. The premise of this dates back to our hunter/gatherer stages and further where humans would have to lie in wait for extended periods of time in order to get food. The simple explanation is those who fell asleep, didn't get food and died while those who developed mental functions to tell if they should remain awake or fall asleep, lived on. Natural selection.

Now let me tottaly tear apart the phrase "Your body sends a signal to the mind to see if it has fallen asleep, so it can fall asleep."

Lets start defining words in here. First, "sleep" in terms of the body is defined most readily by things such as slowed breathing, decreased hartrate, and just general shut down of bodily function.

"Sleep" in terms of the mind, is what we are checking for. This is totally mis-leading. What this urge is checking for is REM-atonia, in other words, the inability for the body to move.

As for what we define "the mind" and "the body" as, these are evidently different regions of your brain, which indeed ARE independant. They are connected only by a linking chain of neurons. How to they communicate? they send a electric pulse to one another.

So, re-writing this phrase, we get "Under conditions that resemble rest, one section of the brain (probably the medula) sends a signal to another section of the brain (probably in your frontal lobe somewhere) to check if the cause is REM atonia. If it is, your bodily functions will begin to slow allowing to to enter a more restful state."

This is why you should NEVER use fucking new-age shit terminology.

PS: Don't quote me on the brain areas. I have no real evidence for it. It might actually be the parietal lobe that sends a pulse to the medula, (or parietal lobe send pulse to medula, who then sends a pulse to somewhere else)

----------


## spaceexplorer

> AS AN ATTEMPT TO DEFEND JEFF'S TECH, NOT NEWPORT
> 
> The thing that is really throwing this argument off are the words we are using. They are really mis-leading. OBVIOUSLY the body cannot send mental signals of it's own, and obviously it takes it's orders from he brain as to when it falls asleep.



I've not read Jeffs thread on this, so can't comment. I'd rather the thread stay on topic tho, as Jeffs method is a seperate issue, even if they are releated (seems like newport has ripped Jeff off and then done him the disservice to turn it into a load of nonsense.)

But read my last two posts for my main issues on the (nonsense)theory of Newports.

----------


## arby

> I've not read Jeffs thread on this, so can't comment. I'd rather the thread stay on topic tho, as Jeffs method is a seperate issue



Hahahahahahahahahahaha.....

Ha. Way to be informed.

They are the SAME technique.

You do know that in this thread you are attacking what might be the largest and most successful thread on this forum?





> But read my last two posts for my main issues on the (nonsense)theory of Newports....



How does this disprove that there is validity to this technique? To me, this is evidence of validity. The pons is probably one of the brain areas I described above.

----------


## spaceexplorer

> Hahahahahahahahahahaha.....
> 
> Ha. Way to be informed.
> 
> They are the SAME technique.
> 
> You do know that in this thread you are attacking what might be the largest and most successful thread on this forum?
> 
> 
> How does this disprove that there is validity to this technique? To me, this is evidence of validity. The pons is probably one of the brain areas I described above.



In response to that last sentence: it does not disprove the validity of the technique, I agree that staying still can help induce a WILD. The point, if you were to read the thread, is to disprove the vailidity of the theory, which dosn't stand up to even the simplest scrutiny and basic principles of biology, sleep and psychology.

A Technique and the theory for why a technique works are two very different things. However the theory behind a technique is the principle used when attempting to understand why something works. If your Whys are based on misinformation, then you are doing yourself a disservice and will limit your wider understanding. It is better to simply state "this works but im not sure why", than to say "this works because *insert a theory that has no foundations*.

Well if they are the same theories, and Jeff words it in the same way Newport words it. Then I have the same issues with Jeffs theory too.

And why should I be informing myself on Jeffs method?
Just because he's come up with the same thing as Newport, this thread is not about that method, it is about misinformation in lucid dreaming being spread by Newport, this one method being an example.

The topic started to focus on one of Newports many silly theories, and so that was discussed.

Also largest and most successful threads, is irrelevant to me.
Christianity is one of the largest most successful religions on the planet... dosn't mean i have to believe it. Truth is more important to me than popularity.
McDonalds is also really popular, dosn't mean i want to eat that garbage.

Anyway, you are diverting this thread away from it's topic.
If I wanted to discuss Jeffs method, I'd be in his thread.

Anyway, My issue is not just with this single method of Newports, it is with his entire series and what he is doing to lucid dreaming.

However I still hold firm that lack of sleep paralysis in NREM, is pretty strong evidence against the theory.

----------


## spaceexplorer

And to get back on topic, i'll just repost where I left off...

An interesting study to look into was conducted my Michel Jouvet in 1965.
Jouvet using a small heated wire, destroyed a small portion of the Pons region of the brain in Cats (the Pons is situated on the brainstem, the bottom of the brain that links the brain to the spinal cord. It's apparently responsible for processes such as respiration, the heart and liver control.

_To quote wikipedia: The pons relays sensory information between the cerebellum and cerebrum, aids in relaying other messages in the brain, controls arousal, and regulates respiration (see respiratory centres). In some theories, the pons has a role in dreaming._)


Anyhow, 
By destroying a portion of the Pons in Cats Jouvet noted that during REM, the cats were no longer subject to paralysis, and instead acted out their dreams. Jumping on dream mice etc. etc.

What's interesting about this study, in relation to this discussion, is that it is clear that SP is not a bodily response to an inactive brain (as Newport states). In fact, it is seemingly a process in which the Pons is a vital element.
Perhaps this is triggered by an increase in certain hormones.

Another important factor in this discussion, is that sleep paralysis is a REM based phenomena. In NREM sleep, the body is not restricted (hence why sleepwalking, talking etc. occur in NREM).
This point contradicts Newport even more, as we all know that NREM sleep the brain/mind is at its least active of any state. Whilst in REM sleep the brain is technically more active than when awake.

If Newports theory that the body were to send test signals to the brain discover if it were awake or not, and if upon discovering it were asleep, would then enter SP, THEN, how can he account for zero SP in NREM? when the brain is least likely to respond or show any activity?

Sleep Paralysis is clearly a defensive mechanism, to avoid us acting out our dreams. I would probably take a guess that the Pons activates sleep paralysis when a certain level of a certain type of brain activity is reached.
Rather than it being a response to low brain activity, i would hazard a guess that it is a response to increased brain activity, the kind of activity that is unque to REM sleep. 

SP is not a function of the body in response to an inactive mind, but it is a built in process of the brain, a kind of firewall that blocks signals from reaching the body.

It is stuff like this that makes me think that Newport is basing his theories not on established knowledge, but on what "sounds like it might be true".
And for me, I'd far prefer my knowledge and understanding to be based on facts than what someone "thinks might be true, decides they are an expert on, and then makes a bunch of infomercial videos to make some cash".  :tongue2: 

Anyway, check out the study if you can find it, it's fascinating.

----------


## DreamQueen

> It's the old saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and the concept that a lie told with a pinch of truth, is far more convincing.
> 
> 
> (god, even the sticking "ology" at the end of the word lucid, says enough about his approach to me)



These were my thoughts too.





> Hahahahahahahahahahaha.....
> 
> Ha. Way to be informed.
> 
> They are the SAME technique.
> 
> You do know that in this thread you are attacking what might be the largest and most successful thread on this forum?



A thread being large doesn't necessarily mean the content is scientifically correct even if everyone posting in it is enthusiastically agreeing with each other.

I haven't read Jeff's thread either. I remember coming across it not long after I joined DV but as soon as I came across the line





> But this is just a ruse! The body is not really uncomfortable, it's
> just testing to see if it can get a response from the mind. If you
> ignore this signal, your body waits a few seconds and says "Hmm, the
> mind must have gone to sleep. Time for me to do the same."



I dismissed it as rubbish. I'm really sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone but it is just huey to try to claim the body has some sort of personal agenda like that. Like S/E has asked a thousand times: which part of the body "decides" to do this testing? The appendix? The femur? The iliac artery?

It's about as ridiculous as claiming a car tests to see if it has a driver.

So yeah, I disagree with Jeff's thread as well. I don't know by what criterion you judge it to be the "most successful thread on this forum"? but jeez if it is then that's a worry.

----------


## arby

Just as a note, I don't like the way Newport and Jeff word things, that was half the point of my first post.





> This is why you should NEVER use fucking new-age shit terminology.



I am only defending the method, which works. Even if we don't know why. I measure success not only by the length, but by the sheer volume of people in that thread that report good experiences and seem to be able to relate.

Unfortunately, this method of teaching is the only way people pay attention, and in cases such as this it works well! You cannot deny that this works well, even though he doesn't give proper science.

Giving the theory behind a technique is an assured way to make sure nobody ever uses it. I've seen this happen time and time again. The second you start taking about the parasympathetic nervous system and medulla, which essentially represent "the body" in this simple example, people click the back button.

PS: SP doesn't occur during REM. Sleep paralysis refers DISTINCTLY to paralysis when you are conscious. 





> I dismissed it as rubbish. I'm really sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone but it is just huey to try to claim the body has some sort of personal agenda like that. Like S/E has asked a thousand times: which part of the body "decides" to do this testing? The appendix? The femur? The iliac artery?



I'm always thrilled when there is evidence that people have actually bothered read my posts -_-

----------


## DreamQueen

> Just as a note, I don't like the way Newport and Jeff word things, that was half the point of my first post.
> 
> 
> 
> I am only defending the method, which works. Even if we don't know why. I measure success not only by the length, but by the sheer volume of people in that thread that report good experiences and seem to be able to relate.



Okay, yeah maybe I will read it now that you've said that about the new-age terminology. Especially if you reckon lots of people have reported success in the thread. Although like I said it was more the concept of "tricking the body" that put me off. Will give it another look though.

Thanks  :smiley:

----------


## spaceexplorer

> Just as a note, I don't like the way Newport and Jeff word things, that was half the point of my first post.
> 
> 
> 
> I am only defending the method, which works. Even if we don't know why. I measure success not only by the length, but by the sheer volume of people in that thread that report good experiences and seem to be able to relate.
> 
> Unfortunately, this method of teaching is the only way people pay attention, and in cases such as this it works well! You cannot deny that this works well, even though he doesn't give proper science.
> 
> Giving the theory behind a technique is an assured way to make sure nobody ever uses it. I've seen this happen time and time again. The second you start taking about the parasympathetic nervous system and medulla, which essentially represent "the body" in this simple example, people click the back button.
> ...




I think it's fair to call _paralysis whilst you are asleep_"sleep paraysis"

You're kind of right if you want to get finikity about it  :tongue2: , I was using the term sleep paralysis because it is more readily understood than REM Atonia for most people.
However Sleep Paralysis will only occur as a result of REM atonia, because its exactly the same process occuring.

Depends if you are refering to sleep paralysis as a sleep disorder, or sleeping paralysis as a function of REM.


ps. I think DreamQueen read your post, but unfortunatly, neither Newport nor Jeff makes the distinctions you make. They claim, in a seemingly straightforward way, that the "body" tests the "mind", which is clearly hokum.
Just because you choose to interpret what they say in a more thoughtful manner, does not excuse either of their lack of clarity on the subject. It's a misleading choice of word. Of which I would agree with you that "new age" speak is dangerous territory.


Anyway, enough of semantics.
The points are clear... 
The theory does not stand up even if people do have success with the techniques. That is a dangerous combination for creating unfounded belief systems. It's much wiser and more humble to simply say "this technique works for me but im not sure why" than "this technique works... and here is my half baked explanation why"

----------


## DreamQueen

> I'm always thrilled when there is evidence that people have actually bothered read my posts -_-



I'm a bit confused because I did read your post as evidenced by the fact that I quoted it. Is this comment sarcastic or do you genuinely mean it?

----------


## Arutad

On topic of mind\body independance and how the body never knows what the mind is doing.

I think that this theory is absolutely correct, based on personal experience. 

For example, I can compare two activities, watching TV and sitting in an immobile state for whatever reason. In my experience during watching TV I will make movements very frequently, turn my head, stretch a little, slightly move the hand, etc. But in the latter case, without any bodily movement, I will inevitably start falling asleep no matter if my mind is working hard. That always made me believe that falling asleep is connected to the immobility of body first, and the stillness of mind normally plays only a second role in it.

Of course it's hard to say whether the body has some kind of "mind" of its own that checks whether it's ready for sleep, but from my experience it does have a mechanism that can gauge its own state of mobility.

But I haven't watched anything by Newport, can somebody please post a link to the videos? I found the commercial-looking site, without any video files. And so far what was supposed to be the bone of contention sounds like a normal theory.

----------


## arby

> You're kind of right if you want to get finikity about it , I was using the term sleep paralysis because it is more readily understood than REM Atonia for most people.



Thanks, this was what I was hoping for to prove a point.

On this site, we don't use words to accurately describe what we mean. We use random terms that are general, simplified descriptors of what we are talking about and make it up to others to properly interpret our words. Just like I have to interpret your SP as REM atonia, does it not make sense that you should try and interpret jeff's use of the work "body" as the part of the mind that controls it, rather then interpret it as the liver or spleen, which makes no sense whatsoever.

Of course, Newport makes it terribly clear what his interpretation is and his head is somewhere off in crazy land where spirits inhabit your body.

But yeah.... you can't treat this community, in it's current state, as a scientific community at all =/. People use so much bullshit terminology here it's not even funny. Did you know "subconscious" isn't actually a real term? There doesn't exist the subconscious in any of the standard models of the mind. Of course, if you try to use the true descriptors such as preconscious or unconscious, people don't understand you or laugh at you. (I had one guy laugh and say "Hey, unconscious is when someone knocks you out!" which is enough to make Freud roll over in his grave.)

So yeah... my point is there's more Newport-esque misinformation even on this site then we'd like... but at least it doesn't come along with a BS sales pitch =/

This is one of the reasons I don't frequent here anymore =O

----------


## moonshine

> Hahahahahahahahahahaha.....
> 
> Ha. Way to be informed.
> 
> They are the SAME technique.
> 
> You do know that in this thread you are attacking what might be the largest and most successful thread on this forum?
> 
> 
> How does this disprove that there is validity to this technique? To me, this is evidence of validity. The pons is probably one of the brain areas I described above.



Well they would be. Jeff pretty much reitterated the Saltcube method.

Now the "caveman trying to rest" explanation almost seems logical.  
But theres just no proof. And there are alternative explanations.

There is every chance that the technique works - I mean its a WILD with bells on isn't it  - but maybe not for the reasons advertised.

----------


## spaceexplorer

> Well they would be. Jeff pretty much reitterated the Saltcube method.
> 
> Now the "caveman trying to rest" explanation almost seems logical.  
> But theres just no proof. And there are alternative explanations.
> 
> There is every chance that the technique works - I mean its a WILD with bells on isn't it  - but maybe not for the reasons advertised.



Good points moonshine. 
The caveman trying to rest explanation, i agree seems logical, but I also think it's kind of comic book logic, if you know what i mean.
It's over simplifying what would be an incredibly complicated process. It's kind of tabloid science, sounds good, but dosn't stand up to a bit of thought. First thought that popped into my mind was night watchmen and the troubles they have staying awake on the job. Also personal experience of long distance journeys, where i've been trying to stay awake waiting for my stop, but had real difficulty. Where was the body test in those scenarios?  If anything, I'd say the simplest "bodily test" if there were such a thing, would be "check to see if eyelid nerves are active or inactive". I'm sure most people would agree that generally when trying to stay awake in boring situations, it's the closing of your eyelids that is always the killer... once you let them shut, it snowballs and you're out like a light.


As for other peoples points...

I have little doubt that aspects of the technique itself may work for _some_ people, _some_ of the time. Although i'd probably put a great deal of money on the theory as to why it works being completely wrong.

I am sure that minimising movment where possible, when trying to induce a WILD is a helpful tactic. I do however think that staying imobile even when in extreme discomfort is futile and self defeating.

I would suggest a couple of experiments to challenge this theory.
The first is incredibly simple... film yourself falling asleep.
I'd be willing to bet that you'd be suprised how often your body moves and adjusts its position whilst transitioning through the early sleep stages.
In fact, if you don't have problems falling asleep with background sound, play an audio book during the falling asleep process. Note when you wake up, the last part of the story you were aware of being read. This will give you a reference point, when watching the film to where your conscious mind fell asleep (for those of us who cant afford sleep Lab Equipment!)... is there much movement leading up to, or following this point?
If so... then it's evidence against this theory.
I predict, bodily movment would occur prior and after sleep onset.

Second, and even simpler experiment....
Try laying still for long periods of time with your EYES OPEN.
Does sleep paralysis kick in this way?
Even if you've ignored the urges to move and itch?

Also note, are the urges to move and itch as pronounced as when you limit your sensory input by closing your eyes? If not, why do you think that is?
Could the hightened urge to move and itch, rather than be a bodily test, be an example of increased bodily awareness when the visual sensory input is removed from the equation? 

Could also, suggestion and expection play a role in your experience?


I myself have no belief or expectation that I *have to stay still*  whilst inducing a WILD. I try to minimise movment, because it is simply more restful to minimise movment... it's also more restful to move when uncomfortable.
Fortunatly for me, because im not making a "big deal" about staying still, these "suddent intense urges to move" never happen... because my mind is not primed to expect them, so the suggestion or worry never becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.  Also, when I move, i don't see it as a *huge faliure*, because I don't buy into the theory... so instead, i just move if i need to get comfy, and drift off into sleep, and dreams, without a worry. 

This is the problem with techniques that have false theories. They create needless worrys, expectations and suggestions. Many of which can completely screw with you.

It's far better to think this way:
If you want to fall asleep and enter a WILD, consider what is most *restful* and go with that. 

Worrying, obsessing and being uncomfortable are NOT restful activitys.

I'm sure everyone has experienced that sensation, when drifting off to sleep where the mind has a wash of the feeling "ahhh, who cares... whatever... just sleeeeep" moments before you drift off, that's what you need to aim for. Any distraction, worry or focus will contradict that basic premise of falling asleep, which is: *letting go.*

For me, having had a lot of WILDs, the process is basically:
Letting go whilst still maintaining a witnessing consciousness, just the bare minimum, so that when the dream starts to form, that minimum awareness is able to trigger a fuller awareness. It's a similar process the mind uses when trying to remember to do something in the future (well i suppose it's exactly the same actually), If for example i need to remember to post a letter, whilst heading into town to do various chores... i'm not constantly focused on posting the letter, instead a small area of my mind is active just enough so that when the correct environmental cues are in place, that it fully awakens from it's "silent waiting watchman" mode, and suddenly i remember what it is I have to do.  It's the same with a WILD, I know full well that trying to retain a full waking awareness is going to be counterproductive to falling asleep, so instead my "silent waiting watchman" is given the task to cue the rest of my awareness into action when a dreamscene starts to form.

Of course, I've experienced WILDs where the transition is almost seemless, and a suprising amount of full awareness is active during the entire process of falling asleep. But these situations are much rarer, and often other factors like extreme physical tiredness or extreme REM rebound are in place. The most successful WILDs for me are almost always, a diminished witnessing awareness, a small trickle of continued consiousness, that acts like an anchor, or thread, with which full awarness can be restored when the dream forms. This way, the restful mindset required for sleep, can still take place, without the the conscious mind interfering too much. If you can diminish your consciousness to the bare minimum, just enough so that you'll notice falling into the dream, then the process of falling asleep is much faster and natural.

That's what works for me, but it takes practice, and really requires you to deveop prospective memory abilities.

But back on the main topic, in all my WILDs, i've never once had problems with "urges to move", because I've never considered getting comfortable to be a barrier to falling asleep. In fact, I've always considered it as pretty vital to falling asleep.
Be careful of what suggestions and expectations you build up in your mind, because, as we all know, the dreaming and sleepy mind is hugely effected by such things.
Which is exactly why I have problems with people who claim to be experts, throwing suggestions and expectations into the mind of people that would do better without them.

----------


## DreamQueen

> For me, having had a lot of WILDs, the process is basically:
> Letting go whilst still maintaining a witnessing consciousness, just the bare minimum, so that when the dream starts to form, that minimum awareness is able to trigger a fuller awareness. It's a similar process the mind uses when trying to remember to do something in the future (well i suppose it's exactly the same actually), If for example i need to remember to post a letter, whilst heading into town to do various chores... i'm not constantly focused on posting the letter, instead a small area of my mind is active just enough so that when the correct environmental cues are in place, that it fully awakens from it's "silent waiting watchman" mode, and suddenly i remember what it is I have to do.  It's the same with a WILD, I know full well that trying to retain a full waking awareness is going to be counterproductive to falling asleep, so instead my "silent waiting watchman" is given the task to cue the rest of my awareness into action when a dreamscene starts to form.
> 
> Of course, I've experienced WILDs where the transition is almost seemless, and a suprising amount of full awareness is active during the entire process of falling asleep. But these situations are much rarer, and often other factors like extreme physical tiredness or extreme REM rebound are in place. The most successful WILDs for me are almost always, a diminished witnessing awareness, a small trickle of continued consiousness, that acts like an anchor, or thread, with which full awarness can be restored when the dream forms. This way, the restful mindset required for sleep, can still take place, without the the conscious mind interfering too much. If you can diminish your consciousness to the bare minimum, just enough so that you'll notice falling into the dream, then the process of falling asleep is much faster and natural.
> 
> That's what works for me, but it takes practice, and really requires you to deveop prospective memory abilities.



This is _such_ a good description of WILDing. This is exactly how it is for me too  :smiley:

----------


## Skydreamer707

i've actually been reccomended by someone to the stop-drop and roll video the guy has.  ::roll::  i didnt like it either. it confused more than helped. i noticed a lot of the stuff he said was "off" or described weird like the way he was describing what a WILD was or something was like?! and if i hadnt known what he was talking about beforehand (from reading posts on here) i wouldve been like WTF? so yeah i agree. the technique may work but the guy's a phony :/ i hate how he has it be "lucidology" or whatever >.> def. scam artist. i think DV should make their own videos to go with tutorials? i think it would be a cool idea. like someone said on here. videos are informative, and diagrams//pictures could help a lot in learning it.

----------


## Suby

*"I agree 100% and think that this should be stickied in the newbie zone."*



THANK YOU SO MUCH. and YES STICKY it. I hate how a real phenomenon such as lucid dreaming is being overcome by all the new age filth like dream signs/meanings/guides or meeting up in a dream with somone else... I find it difficult to sift through all the BS on here sometimes. But otherwise, there are some damn good guides here if you bother to search and a great forum community for the most part.

----------


## spaceexplorer

> *"I agree 100% and think that this should be stickied in the newbie zone."*
> 
> 
> 
> THANK YOU SO MUCH. and YES STICKY it. I hate how a real phenomenon such as lucid dreaming is being overcome by all the new age filth like dream signs/meanings/guides or meeting up in a dream with somone else... I find it difficult to sift through all the BS on here sometimes. But otherwise, there are some damn good guides here if you bother to search and a great forum community for the most part.



My thinking exactly. Lucidology is a thinly  veiled sales scam, promoting misinformation and bad-science (as in totally made up nonsense  pretending to be science).

It's a shame lucid dreaming is so often tarnished with the brush of nonsense. 
It's worrying and sad that people newly interested in the subject will be mislead, fed bad information or simply lied to in order for others to make money or boost the ego of the snake-oil-salesman.

It's nice to know though, that so many lucid dreamers, like yourself suby,  share the same passion and enthusiasm for lucid dreaming, and want to help promote it as a genuine, intelligent subject. 

I've no problem with people speculating on theories or exploring dreams as a means to self understanding and exploration. As long as it is made clear that it is speculation or personal experimentation. It's when people muddy the water with claims of "facts" about lucidity that are false or misleading to promote their own agendas.

What's more worrying is how many people seem to have been sucked in by these style of infomercial videos. I'd always assumed most lucid dreamers were a little more discerning and thoughtful than the average Joe.

----------


## Suby

> My thinking exactly. Lucidology is a thinly  veiled sales scam, promoting misinformation and bad-science (as in totally made up nonsense  pretending to be science).
> 
> It's a shame lucid dreaming is so often tarnished with the brush of nonsense. 
> It's worrying and sad that people newly interested in the subject will be mislead, fed bad information or simply lied to in order for others to make money or boost the ego of the snake-oil-salesman.
> 
> It's nice to know though, that so many lucid dreamers, like yourself suby,  share the same passion and enthusiasm for lucid dreaming, and want to help promote it as a genuine, intelligent subject. 
> 
> I've no problem with people speculating on theories or exploring dreams as a means to self understanding and exploration. As long as it is made clear that it is speculation or personal experimentation. It's when people muddy the water with claims of "facts" about lucidity that are false or misleading to promote their own agendas.
> 
> What's more worrying is how many people seem to have been sucked in by these style of infomercial videos. I'd always assumed most lucid dreamers were a little more discerning and thoughtful than the average Joe.



Well... sadly, people like easy fast fantasy rather than the harder reality. Even though reality can be weird and wonderful if you look carefully enough and take the time to try and understand it.

Also sadly, I am not a lucid dreamer. I wish I was, but I lack the motivation for that or much else. Maybe sometime in the future I'll try again. I've only had a couple lucid dreams in my life.

----------


## moonshine

On the body testing mind subject (which I think we all agree means the mind testing the mind via the body) during a number of Wilds
I have experienced the incredible itching reported by a number of others. 
After ignoring the itching, I soon ended up in a lucid.
This may not be co-incidental.

----------


## mitch3590

Its not that these videos dont have truth in them. They do have truth in them. He understands the general idea of lucid dreaming, maybe more than just the general idea, but he is simply trying to sell you his product. They have truth but he beefs it up and makes it sound good. I personally think it sounds like shit and makes me want to find where he lives and set his house on fire (not really  ::D: ). Its like if somebody, lets say a true teacher of some sort, said "Hey everyone look i found out how to conjure twinkies from thin air, i will teach anyone who wants to know because this should not be a secret kept from anyone as it is just too great." and then a dirty little slimeball of a man comes along and sais "Hey everyone, I know all about conjuring twinkies, follow my step by step program and you will know how to do this incredible technique in no time!" and then he throws in a little fine, and gains more popularity because he knows how to advertise, and soon enough a whole bunch of people are oblivious to the teacher but pay this scum bag their hard earned money for something that works, but all those unfortunate people are buying only part of the bigger technique, so the guy can make more profit, while the people learning under the teacher get it for free and are probably a lot more informed and better at it. Bottom line...dont buy this guy's b.s. its not fair to yourself, or any one else.

----------


## spaceexplorer

On the subject of not moving...
The exact same thing happens to a lot of meditators, they too can "get past the pain barrier" so to speak, but this does not result in them having sleep paralysis, nor does it mean they fall asleep. Instead they remain in a relaxed medatative state, with an awake mind, and awake body. 
It seems to me to be pretty obvious, that if one turns one attention inwards, and cuts of most sensory input, either via meditation or lucid dream WILD practices... the mind will latch onto any small urges, and magnify them into an almost compulsive desire to give them your full attention. 
I don't think this is any kind of testing system, I imagine it's akin to sitting in a completely bare room, with nothing but a red rose in the corner... of course your attention is going to be drawn again and again to the one piece of stimuli, the rose, or in the case of meditation and WILDs bodily sensations and itches.

This of course will be even more hightened if part of your practice or what you've been taught tells you to "ignore" them... because it suddenly becomes part of what you expect, and something you want to avoid... which ironically primes your awareness to notice it.

Of course if you ignore something long enough, it will pass, that's just life.
Does that mean you've "passed a test"? 
I don't think so. 
What you have done, is moved into a state of deeper relaxation, where your attention can settle down. Personally, I think the same thing can be achived by simply not giving any importance to the body, and just relaxing in the normal way you'd fall asleep (as in just getting comfy).

But to me, the fact that meditators get the very same experience, yet do not fall into deep sleep or sleep paralysis even though they too ignore it... is kind of enough evidence to prove that it's not some kind of special testing system, and instead just a natural example of magnified awareness.

On the subject of Lucidology.
I fully agree with Mitch.
I'd go one step further and say:
Not only is lucidology sneaky in the fact that it contains small elements of truth... but it also then goes on to seemingly build upon that truth with nonsense... but people believe the nonsense, because it had a seed of truth in it initially.

I've no problem with people making money from a subject, I have huge respect for Laberge and other dream researchers. 
The difference between them and Newport, is that they have some kind of integrity. They stick with the facts, make it clear when they are speculating, and educate in a sensible, intelligent fashion.
Newport on the other hand, pretty much behaves like he is the final word, "knows it all", and then spews out a load of meaningless pseudo-science and made up terminology... all of which is basically nonsense.
In an attempt to confuse and bamboozle the naive and gullable into parting with their money.

Sure he may have a few bits of knowledge, but no more than any member of DreamViews. In fact, I'd say he knows less... because he is so caught up in his lucid-dream-messiah complex, that I expect he has even started to believe his own nonsense. 

I just feel sorry for the newcomers to the subject, we were all naive to lucid dreaming once upon a time. And it's very easy to be sucked in by confident sales men, selling sparkly "perfect" systems. But as the old saying goes... If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is.

Newport  needs to go back to school and study some basic psychology and biology rather than just confidently pretending he understands.

----------


## Ghost94

Newport wants your money. Dont buy anything from him, he is a salesman.

EDIT:
Cleaned up..

----------


## moonshine

Ghost, why would spaceexplorer respond to some random and fairly crazed off-topic trolling.

So looks like you've won 10 Euros mate. 
Maybe you should by yourself some nice relaxing herbal tea.

I was half tempted to ask you a half dozen random questions.
But your efforts here are actually beyond parody.

----------


## Ghost94

> Ghost, why would spaceexplorer respond to some random and fairly crazed off-topic trolling.
> 
> So looks like you've won 10 Euros mate. 
> Maybe you should by yourself some nice relaxing herbal tea.
> 
> I was half tempted to ask you a half dozen random questions.
> But your efforts here are actually beyond parody.



Yeah, sorry about that post. I just get pissed off sometimes because this spaceexplorer and that DeathCell are always going offtopic and negative and rebellious. So I wanted to do that too..

----------


## spaceexplorer

> Yeah, sorry about that post. I just get pissed off sometimes because this spaceexplorer and that DeathCell are always going offtopic and negative and rebellious. So I wanted to do that too..




Don't worry Ghost, I understand where you are coming from. But have since decided to simply avoid beyond dreaming, as it brings out my anger and frustration at all that kind of nonsense (and yes, i have been quite negative in that part of the forum - I think it's important to stand ). So you'll not see any more of that kind as I'll be hanging out in the sensible part of the forum. If you take the time to read my recent posts, i'd like to think that I can actually be quite a decent and helpful member of the forum too. 

We're all lucid dreamers together, and it's our duty to look after the subject.
It's bought me years of joy and pleasure, and I want people who are new to it, to find the same pleasure without having to wade through nonsense and misinformation, the kind that Newport peddles.

----------


## Jeff777

Read the previous three pages.  Interesting thread spaceexplorer.  Very interesting.

----------


## spaceexplorer

> Read the previous three pages.  Interesting thread spaceexplorer.  Very interesting.



Cheers Jeff, 
Always appreciate your opinion, and I know you'll understand that nothing I say is criticism of you. In fact, it goes to show that you're an intelligent and open minded guy, to be able to take onboard different perspectives on this kind of thing. You're a good chap.

I think you did a great job of explaining the original method, and I do still agree that the fundementals of staying still when trying to induce a WILD can be useful (but as we've seen not for everyone), I just have problems with people like Newport, who confuse the newcomers with theories and terminology they pluck out of the air purely for their own gain and fame.

He basically took a simple principle (Staying still whilst trying to WILD)
and then ran with it, adding his own terminology and wacky theories as to why it works. This would be fine, if he was humble, and stated they were simply theories, possibitys and not facts... unfortunatly he dosn't, and his claims are filled with an uneasy arrogance that dosn't sit right. And on the surface he's quite convincing as he's so confident in his assertations. Problem is when you examine the theorys and extrapolations he's made, they don't add up. Reminds me of evangalistic preachers or hardcore salesmen.

I think we have to accept there are no soild rules with lucid dreaming as each of us has a different physiology and psychological makeup, and we should be suspicious of teachers who claim or hint that they are the final word on the subject (especially those whos claims contradict basic scientific knowledge). 

We're all pioneers exploring the wilderness of our own personal universes. We can share travel stories with each other, and discuss things that have made our own lives easier... but we all know that in the end, it's a personal journey.
The only real "facts" with lucid dreaming, are the discoverys made about the physiology, neurochemistry and more objective observations about the processes underlying the sleeping patterns of humans. 
How our own personal "brain software" interprets and uses those impulses, biological aspects, cycles and psychological components, is a personal and subjective experience. 

For example Rapid Eye Movement is something we can certainly call a fact about the sleep cycle.

But, what, when and how we use our imaginations to bridge the gap between waking and sleeping, are certainly more personal and prone to individual differences in physiology, psychology and personality.


We can look to more experienced travellers for guidance and inspiration... but when they start taking advantage of the trust of newcomers, and sell them glitzy misleading ideas as if they are "soild facts" (and could actually put off, and certainly waste the time and effort of newcomers) then the rest of us, need to stand up for the new guys, and keep the subject as transparent and honest as we can.

Guys like Newport seem to want to make a name for themselves at the cost of others time, energy and money. They seem to care more about their own position as an authority, than about the subject they discuss. They also seem, and I think this is what gives them away, that they cannot be wrong, that they have some kind of "higher knowledge".

I've always thought a good judge of a teacher, is their ability to be humble and admit where there knowledge is lacking or incomplete.
Those like Laberge, Green etc. all are very open about what they do not know, they make it clear that there is much study to be done, that they are not the final authority, simply people who have dedicated their time into uncovering some of the more universal aspects of the dreamworld.
They may speculate on possible causes, they may hypothesize on methods, 
they do not however, claim an ultimate knowldge. And they certainly never rule out the possibity of being wrong. It is the search for knowledge, the constant and often tedious process of working slowly to uncover the secrets, that show a true love of a subject. It demonstrates that someone truely wants to improve a subject, rather than make grandious claims for their own short term gain (at the cost of truth and knowledge).

Sure over time, certain facts will emerge... for example, we all know that WBTB is a very effective way of having a lucid dream. What is still to be discovered (if it ever will, because it may be completely down to an indivduals psychological and biological makeup) are details like what time to awaken,how long to stay awake etc.

I think Newport, and others like him, give themselves away by thier excessive confidence. For a subject as new and vast as lucid dreaming... there is so much to learn, and so much to discover, that anyone who confidently claims they have "cracked it", for everyone, is clearly missing the humble understanding, that the human mind, the dreaming mind... is a vast, complex subject. 

Choose your teachers not  by how confident or charismatic they are...
choose them by their love of the subject, ability to be humble in the face of mysteries, their ability to accept that they themselves are not special - but their love and obsession for a subject is what makes them tick, what gives them value... and most of all, those who are not afraid to say "I don't know, but i'd love to, and am working on it..."

----------


## Verto

If you have ever experienced the E-book sales culture before, alarm bells start to ring within about 10 seconds of those videos. Not being a very experienced LDer, particularly a Wilder. I was almost sucked in myself, had it not been for termninlogy and the "Underserved" confidence in which the man speaks with highlighting his obvious script like marketing techniques. The guy practically sums up internet niche marketing, research a little around the subject. Put a few seeds of truth at the core of the product, and then proceed to BLOW IT FAR FAR out of proportion. 

I'm glad that others have sniffed the BS also, nice one spaceexplorer.

----------


## Ghost94

Hey, sorry spaceexplorer. I just read your opening post a bit and then expected that this is going to be like the BD threads.
You´re totally right about Newport.

I actually fell for Newport´s advice. But then I remembered that he is a salesman. He just wants my money.
Whenever I open a page that sells me stuff, I piss off totally. Expecially if I read some of that stuff. When I trusted Newport, I didn´t understand that he had a page like this.

Advice to everyone: Never buy anything that promises something and is marketed to you.

The salesmen are tricky bastards. Being a natural bodybuilder (no steroids), I know a _lot_ about muscle gain, strenght gain, and fat loss, both in nutrition and training sides.
Now, thousands and thousands of sites promise that if you buy their product, they´ll make you hyuuuge, rippped and suuper strooong. They are all fake. At least 99% of the people selling that stuff arent even any kinds of professionals, all they do is train themselfs, at most.
The thing is, these sites and marketing videos and stuff look all right. But having so much information, I can see thru the crap. They obviosly dont even know what they are talking about. They just want your money.

BUT when it comes to lucid dreaming, I do not have enough information to judge these sites and salesmen. But even though their product, info etc. seems pretty good, I know that it is bullshit, because I know that if the physical transformation pages are bull, so is this.

----------


## A dreamer168

Isn't some of what Newport said also on Saltcube?

I can only think of one example: the mind awake body asleep thing.

Mattt Jones also claims that if one lays down the body will test the mind to see if it's asleep.

"So what happens is the body tests the mind to see if it's asleep.
If you lay with a silent mind very still for about 25 minutes and are
nicely relaxed, your body will eventually send a very strong signal to
your mind saying "I'm uncomfortable, please shift your position in
bed.



EDIT: Jeff777, my apologies for using a part of your technique, but you have to admit, they are very similar. Plus, a lot of OBE/Lucid Dreaming (I don't know why the two are bundled together) say you can get lucid by rolling out of bed
But this is just a ruse! The body is not really uncomfortable, it's
just testing to see if it can get a response from the mind. If you
ignore this signal, your body waits a few seconds and says "Hmm, the
mind must have gone to sleep. Time for me to do the same."                        

     In my opinion, Newport baically took the Saltcube methods and copied them.

----------


## spaceexplorer

I think anyone considering this methods put forward by Newport and others (that require forcing your body to stay still) should consider the following information in the excellent book *"Counting Sheep - the science and pleasures of sleep and dreams" by Paul Martin* (ISBN 0-00-768319-7)

"Sleepwalking aside, you normally stay in the same place when you are asleep. But you do not stay still. Unless you are very tired, very drunk, drugged or tied up (or, perish the thought, all four) you will normally change your body posture every 15-20 minutes during sleep, usually at the end of an episode of REM sleep or slow-wave sleep. This is just as well, because lying in the same position for too long could restrict your circulation, damage nerves and even cause pressure sores. Prolonged pressure on a nerve can cause temporary numbness and loss of movement in the limb"

and .....

"Your limbs may also make occasional jerking movments during sleep. known as periodic limb movements (or nocturnal myoclonus). They usually occur during light NREM sleep. We tend to noice them most during the transition from waking to sleep because they sometimes wake us up again. Limb movements during sleep are remarkably frequent. One study of elderly people recorded an average of 26 per hour. "


I would very much recommend this fantastic well researched book, for a detailed exploration of many sleeping phenomena.

Interestingly,  it would seem that modern research into sleep and dreaming seem to contradict both the theory and the method. More worryingly, it would seem that forcing your body to stay still is an unnatural and unhealthy practice.

Basically in contradiction to Newports method, it seems that Dream researchers have found that:

1) Limb movments are a normal part of sleeping and falling asleep.
2) Staying deadly still, is actually very unsleeplike and potentially damaging.

----------


## Creation X

> While his "science" is off key, the method still works. He does use some common terms such as 'WILD' and his videos are neat, organized, and visual, which can be helpful for someone who does not benefit from our tutorials which are mostly just text.
> 
> Take Jeff777's tutorial for instance. It basically teaches the same technique, but is purely text. The videos have graphs and diagrams that allow LDers to visualize what he's saying.
> 
> I've had success with it and so have others. With new LDers, writing up a tutorial that says something simple like 'When you WILD, don't move much', they always have a lot of questions afterwards. Newport's videos are in depth and captivating.
> 
> I agree with everything you said about his flawed science, but if the method works, let people enjoy the videos.




are you trying to say jeff's wall of text isn't in depth?

>_> Nicholas is dumb imo.

----------


## Something Else

> This is _such_ a good description of WILDing. This is exactly how it is for me too



I liked it too.

----------


## Something Else

I do think the dude is obviously trying to make money, but I dont think that he is nearly as evil as this thread has presented him to be.  Here are my points.

  The way I see it, he is a guy on the internet that for 98% of people is offering free advice, movies, pdfs, and timers.  His information should be taken with a grain of salt (or a cube. ouch.  Sorry, I had too).  When I see guys like him, I take what I want and throw away the rest.  I would expect everybody else to do the same.  And for the other 2% of people out there that actually buy his stuff, these are people that are probably buying all kinds of stuff.  They either have a lot of money to blow, or are extreme collectors and buy everything related to lucid dreaming.  If this is the case, I imagine they have already been ripped off way worse with other products than the small amount this guy is charging for what I considered to be run of the par information.  I didnt buy his stuff because most of what he was saying I was familiar with in one way or another, so why pay some more money to hear more information in the advanced material that I was still already familiar with?  But if his advanced material is really well produced, I can see how the service he is providing could be worth a small fee.  Like I said, if you know of someplace else I can get high quality detailed information that includes charts, pdfs, videos, computer programs and has been organized in a well thought out manner for a cheap price, please let me know, I would love to spend my money on it.  While this guy might not have achieved all the goals I just listed above, I get the feeling that would be the direction he would be attempting to take and that is worth something in itself.  

  Yes, I dont agree with everything he said.  Most people on this thread dont agree with everything he said, even the people that like him.  That doesnt make him bad.  It makes him a pioneer in a field that is in its infancy.  All fields in their infancy have misinformation that is later corrected.  What he is doing is no different in my eyes than any of the other countless authors that have written books about LD, all of which have misinformation and misguided explanations about what is going on.  He at least gives away half of his information for free.  

  I have met a lot of pseudo-intellectual wanna be experts in my day.  These people fully believe that they are really intellectual experts but sadly are not.  They do no original research or experiments, and only lightly glance over the material real researchers are doing.  Interestingly enough a lot of forums are filled with people like this because they are allowed to anonymously be experts, shout other people down and argue endlessly about almost pointless facts that boil down to semantics, subjective experience, or something even less.  It doesnt mean they dont really believe in sewage they spew out.  It just means they are misguided and want to feel like they are really important and smart when they really arent.  Emotionally, they feel like they win and are deemed smart if they can outpost somebody else with a fight of childish point and counterpoint arguments.  This saltcube guy might very well be one of these people who has evolved past shouting pseudo-intellectual non-sense on forums and moved onto 2009 style with a video cam and a knack for making overly complicated charts, but it doesnt mean that everything he is saying is wrong, worthless, or evil.  On the contrary for some people some of it can be very useful and as mentioned before is the same information that can be found on the very pages of this forum.  It is true that this guy is not an expert in that he doesnt have a Ph.D. and do research at a major research university.  But he has had the discipline in life to collect lots of books, if not read them too, create multiple websites, and video programs.  I would suspect that at least some of that discipline would carry over to actually trying to LD in a systematic way.  I would trust him and his obvious experience above the regular joe who comes to this website, read a couple of books and tutorials had 30 or so WILDS and is now the new expert on a new type of LDing and wants to tell everybody how smart they are share and label a new LDing technique.      

  Also, the videos on youtube have been criticized for not being open to discussion.  Actually, youtube videos are open to discussion.  People post comments at the bottom of the video and can even post a video response.  If a person doesnt like what he says in the video, and many people dont, then they are free to criticize him on the youtube page hosting the video.  Or even better, if a viewer knows a better set of information than what he is mentioning, they can take the time and make a high quality video with better quality graphs and post them as a response.  If their video is good, it will eventually get more hits than his.  

  I have read many books on LD, and they all use different terminology to some extent.  I think to knock this guy is to knock anybody who has every written a book about lucid dreaming.  If there is a perfect lucid dreaming book for 19.95 please let me know, I would love to buy it.  Even on this website people regularly make up new terms that or acronyms.  Some stick, but most do not.  Probably will be the same for him.  Most of his terms will not stick.     

  His information claims or infers to be the correct information, but so does every other book out there.  I am not an expert but his information did not seem so bad to me.  Yes, he might take 10 minutes to explain a point that can be explained in 1 minute, but that does not mean it is bad information.  The 1 sentence explanation of try to be still is just telling a person what to do.  He takes the rest of the 9.5 minutes to explain not just what to do, but in his opinion how best to do it, and why to do it.  Many people appreciate this style of teaching/learning and that takes some lengthy explaining.  And for the record many of us experienced in LD dreaming have often found on our own that after lying still for a long time and then rolling over a LD can occur pretty quickly.  Maybe he isnt completely right in his theory explaining this phenomena, but that doesnt make him necessarily a scam artist, it COULD just make him misguided with good intentions like every other pioneer in a field that tried to make a theory that was later proved wrong.  I mean seriously, you should read half of the doozies that get put on this website.  Are the authors of those threads scam artists too?  I come across some ridiculous stuff sometimes.  Most of the time trying to find the good stuff from the bad on this site takes forever.  I read 8 threads tonight before coming across this one.  That being said, some of the best information and golden nuggets I have ever gotten, I have gotten from here, but it sure doesnt mean everything here is correct.  Likewise, not everything with this guys work is correct but there are a couple nuggets in his material that a person might find useful.  I know I personally did when reviewing all his (free) stuff many months back.  I didnt buy the advanced material because the free stuff wasnt that impressive to me, but like I said, it doesnt mean this guy is as bad as this thread makes him to be.    


  This guy might come off as trying to be scientific and not actually be really scientific, but at least what he is saying makes sense in his own mind.  I can at least follow what he is saying and see the possibility whether I agree with it or not.  Has anybody seen an interview on youtube with Laberge?  The dude comes off as a goof (with all respect the man knows way more about lucid dreaming than I do).  

  As a teacher who makes a lot of charts and powerpoints for my classroom lectures, I was impressed with all the time and effort this guy put into putting together a package as a starter kit for somebody.  Some people dont learn very well by reading books.  This guy made charts, videos, timers, pdfs.  If he wants to make a buck and add to all the information out there on lucid dreaming, I think more power to him.  This is the modern age of marketing.  He is clearly marketing and trying to make money.  All of us try to make money one-way or the other.  I very seriously doubt that few of us are employed in truly noble companies that dont employ some kind of dubious marketing scheme.  Hopefully for our companies, our marketers do a better job as not coming off so infomercialish.  

  I have a lot of more things I could say but I dont want to be redundant.

----------


## adraw

> I do think the dude is obviously trying to make money, but I don’t think that he is nearly as evil as this thread has presented him to be.  Here are my points.
> 
>   The way I see it, he is a guy on the internet that for 98% of people is offering free advice, movies, pdfs, and timers.  His information should be taken with a grain of salt (or a cube…. ouch.  Sorry, I had too).  When I see guys like him, I take what I want and throw away the rest.  I would expect everybody else to do the same.  And for the other 2% of people out there that actually buy his stuff, these are people that are probably buying all kinds of stuff.  They either have a lot of money to blow, or are extreme collectors and buy everything related to lucid dreaming.  If this is the case, I imagine they have already been ripped off way worse with other products than the small amount this guy is charging for what I considered to be run of the par information.  I didn’t buy his stuff because most of what he was saying I was familiar with in one way or another, so why pay some more money to hear more information in the advanced material that I was still already familiar with?  But if his advanced material is really well produced, I can see how the service he is providing could be worth a small fee.  Like I said, if you know of someplace else I can get high quality detailed information that includes charts, pdfs, videos, computer programs… and has been organized in a well thought out manner for a cheap price, please let me know, I would love to spend my money on it.  While this guy might not have achieved all the goals I just listed above, I get the feeling that would be the direction he would be attempting to take and that is worth something in itself.  
> 
>   Yes, I don’t agree with everything he said.  Most people on this thread don’t agree with everything he said, even the people that like him.  That doesn’t make him bad.  It makes him a pioneer in a field that is in its infancy.  All fields in their infancy have misinformation that is later corrected.  What he is doing is no different in my eyes than any of the other countless authors that have written books about LD, all of which have misinformation and misguided explanations about what is going on.  He at least gives away half of his information for free.  
> 
>   I have met a lot of pseudo-intellectual wanna be experts in my day.  These people fully believe that they are really intellectual experts but sadly are not.  They do no original research or experiments, and only lightly glance over the material real researchers are doing.  Interestingly enough a lot of forums are filled with people like this because they are allowed to anonymously be “experts”, shout other people down and argue endlessly about almost pointless facts that boil down to semantics, subjective experience, or something even less.  It doesn’t mean they don’t really believe in sewage they spew out.  It just means they are misguided and want to feel like they are really important and smart when they really aren’t.  Emotionally, they feel like they win and are deemed smart if they can outpost somebody else with a fight of childish point and counterpoint arguments.  This saltcube guy might very well be one of these people who has evolved past shouting pseudo-intellectual non-sense on forums and moved onto 2009 style with a video cam and a knack for making overly complicated charts, but it doesn’t mean that everything he is saying is wrong, worthless, or evil.  On the contrary for some people some of it can be very useful and as mentioned before is the same information that can be found on the very pages of this forum.  It is true that this guy is not an expert in that he doesn’t have a Ph.D. and do research at a major research university.  But he has had the discipline in life to collect lots of books, if not read them too, create multiple websites, and video programs.  I would suspect that at least some of that discipline would carry over to actually trying to LD in a systematic way.  I would trust him and his obvious experience above the regular joe who comes to this website, read a couple of books and tutorials had 30 or so WILDS and is now the new “expert” on a new type of LDing and wants to tell everybody how smart they are share and label a new LDing technique.      
> 
>   Also, the videos on youtube have been criticized for not being open to discussion.  Actually, youtube videos are open to discussion.  People post comments at the bottom of the video and can even post a video response.  If a person doesn’t like what he says in the video, and many people don’t, then they are free to criticize him on the youtube page hosting the video.  Or even better, if a viewer knows a better set of information than what he is mentioning, they can take the time and make a high quality video with better quality graphs and post them as a response.  If their video is good, it will eventually get more hits than his.  
> ...



I like your post becouse It shows, that authors motivation and community reactions might not have to match everytime. Actually there are always variations in interpretation of what we percieve and what really was the intention behind. 

Little background for what comes next: I myself am a software engineer. In our company, when we design new programs, we usually first create prototypes, which are not perfect, but give the customer an idea about what the program will look like. If there is a desire to continue, we improve the program again and again and actually fullfill the needs of customer, in areas he needs. What is nice about the prototype modelling is, that it creates overview, some kind of generalization which makes also people who are not quite Informed create a picture which they can use as reference for further decisions and refinements. Making a general overview is essential, becouse without it, the customer does not know, what actually wants. 

I would like to mention that I watched Lucidology videos and the first thing which popped up in my mind was: Finaly someone, who tried to offer practical overview of HOW things might work. Of course it might only be mental model which does not have to have that much experience background, but it is a model which can be discussed and which could be IMPROVED (And it already is in process of improvement: As Lucidology is improved version of Saltcube). In Saltcube videos I found a foundation upon which I could build my knowledge.  It is build on simple principles, which somehow connected my vague experience into something more coherent.

Might the Lucidology model be wrong in some extent, but it is a prototype, which  gives some kind of overview, overview which is to be honest missing in many of our Dreamviews tutorials. What we could learn from Saltcube and Lucidology is that we not only should create step by step guides how to perform some techniques, but also that we should try to infer knowledge from our experience, that we should try to play with what we know and create somethin new, maybe inspiring and maybe working for someone. Nick was wery creative in his videos. He mixed his knowledge, experience and other peoples experiences. Created something, what sounds new and fresh. He created a prototype which - judging from this discussion - is interesting enough to be discussed and which is interesting enough to be improved. 

I think, we should stop discussing the reasons why he created saltcube or lucidology and what kind of person he is (I personally dont know him, do you?). We should stop being destructive, when we have so many constructive options:

1. Contact Nick to try to understand model he is providing. (I thing DV have the authority to do it)
2. Maybe after swapping a word or two in his vocabulary, with more commonly used terminology, we will find out, that his model is more coherent with our community's view of the world (Doesnt it mean, that we actually give more emphasis on words than meaning behind them?)
3. Try to build our own models. Try to share them. Try to play with them, compare them, build metamodels. Argue about them..

As I see it, there are not many people as productive as Nick. And also there are not many people with great Ideas who also have LD experiences as YOU people here in dreamviews. Why not use obvious advantages of community and productive people to improve existing models and creating new ones? Why always just judging and personalizing. If we dont know for sure, we should assume that best motivation is also possible. Why win-lose if there is WIN-WIN possibility?

----------


## Something Else

I agree with everything you just said Adraw.  I know that there are very few J.K. Rowlings in the world that are able to produce a well respected work on a first try (whether it be a painting, book, video, speech, performance....).  Most people start off slow, improve with subsequent renditions and attempts until they finally reach their peak.  Later, they wean off.  I feel like Nick is building and can still even do better and I personally look forward towards his next work.  Why can't we help him or he help us?  It sounds like a win/win for all.

----------


## spaceexplorer

> Why can't we help him or he help us?  It sounds like a win/win for all.



Well, personally, I think the reason I wouldn't want him "helping us", is because 99% of the information he is churning out is false and misleading.

I have no problem with people making money out of lucid dreaming, good luck to them. However, if in the process they cause confusion, misinformation and mislead people... well then I have a  problem.

Compare Nick, to someone like Tim Post from Lucidipedia.com (who has made a great series of videos on youtube)

There is a world of difference.
Tim clearly knows what he is talking about, is passionate, shares what he learns freely, and dosn't seem determined to rewrite all the terminology, so that he himself is left the only "expert".

Nick, is misguided at best, but it is clear that it is his ego that is driving him.

I personally wouldn't mind if he was just some ego driven guru-wannabe, but the fact that he is actually pumping out false science and a whole host of nonsensical terminology, just to attempt to appear credible, well that's just wrong. It's misleading, and it's misinforming the very people who are out there looking for credible information.

We can try and justify what he is doing in all sorts of nice liberal, thoughtful ways, but personaly, i've had enough of the nonsense surroudning lucid dreaming, and I also can't stand people who lie about science.
Bottom line is, don't promote yourself as an expert if you don't really know what you are talking about.

----------


## spaceexplorer

> Also, the videos on youtube have been criticized for not being open to discussion. Actually, youtube videos are open to discussion. People post comments at the bottom of the video and can even post a video response. If a person doesn’t like what he says in the video, and many people don’t, then they are free to criticize him on the youtube page hosting the video. Or even better, if a viewer knows a better set of information than what he is mentioning, they can take the time and make a high quality video with better quality graphs and post them as a response. If their video is good, it will eventually get more hits than his.



Not actually true, the owner of a YouTube channel has complete control on the comments and video responses posted.
Interestingly, Nick removes any negative or critical posts or video responses to his videos.

He clearly isn't interested in debate, which isn't suprising, because if he was open to debate it'd soon become apparant that most of what he's saying contradicts science and already established lucid dreaming knoweldge. Wouldn't be good for his sales or lucid-messiah complex that would it.

----------


## adraw

> Not actually true, the owner of a YouTube channel has complete control on the comments and video responses posted.
> Interestingly, Nick removes any negative or critical posts or video responses to his videos.
> 
> He clearly isn't interested in debate, which isn't suprising, because if he was open to debate it'd soon become apparant that most of what he's saying contradicts science and already established lucid dreaming knoweldge. Wouldn't be good for his sales or lucid-messiah complex that would it.



Interesting. Certainly not good for him to be so unaccepting to negative feedback. I wouldnt mind, if he would remove rude posts, but if he removes opposing ideas, it makes the question about his intentions quite relevant. Still if I were you, I would operate with words more carefully. Mentioning messiah complex is a pretty big acccusion. Labelling someone as having messiah complex means that the person is in a state of mind in which the individual believes he/she is, or is destined to become, a savior. In Lucidology videos and Saltcube videos, I havent seen evidence to prove something like this. 

I agree it wouldnt be helpful to his sales. 

P.S: I like your pretty descriptive overview of your WILD experiences. Very helpful.

----------


## earth

Wow i have been using his info for the past week... No ld.. Thanks for pointing this out to me he really sounds like a car salesman lol. ugh back to the drawing board. I printed 47pages of his crap that he sent my in my "explorors kit" that was nothing more than he stated in his videos. When i went to read it it made sense for a while and then boom trying to sell me lucidology 102 and giving no info at all. crap.

----------


## lucidspark64

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=77770


looks like needles may have been sucked in.

i think we all know that what laberge sells is like a work-out machine as he said himself. Only your excercising your odds at lucid dreaming.

newport sells you the loss-weight-fast pill or even get rich quick.

ive been like ripped off at the state fair before. i didnt know that little toy weazel had an invisible string that you attatch to your belt! shit!

i don't like these kind of people.

----------


## Atras

yes, i totally agree with you that his science is way off key. he is one of those guys that knows nothing about science and just says thing that he thinks would "make sense", even tho if he had a clue about biology and how the brain works he wud know that it is complete BS!

----------


## mjstopgun

When I was first starting out lding, I stumbled upon these videos before this site. I thought that the videos were really interesting and (even though Im ashamed to say it) bought the science he taught. 
None of it ever worked, and it wasn't until about 8 months later and a lot of DILD work that i actually had an ld.

----------


## Mr Sandman

Bump.
I think this thread should be stickied.

----------


## robrave

Hmm.. quite a debate around here...

After reading this thread (that's a lot), you are attacking Newport's idea by telling your own idea. Newport has his own opinion and he even used his time by creating such presentation. Can you even do that? 

Now, I even have a copy of his 102 and read and watched all its content. There's nothing wrong really. He presented everything in his own perspective. Besides all the basics, which is 101, are presented in youtube for free. He doesn't force you to buy 102, well, no one can really force anyone.

I think anyone who oppose Newport is someone who is actually disapproving of his way of selling his idea, which is in 102. Everyone has its own way, you can share it for free, advertise it, or even sell it. To each of its own.

And saying, "His graph is crap".. LOL...  as everyone is different. Not all methods and techniques that worked to A will work to B. Those graph might worked for him, Newport. Well, of course, you are different from him, so you said that is "crap". Well, again, what I can see here is that you don't even tried to understand the graph because your mind is too focusing on bringing his idea down.

I'm not Newport..LOL.. maybe someone would say something like this, and I learned a lot from this forum. 

You know, the best way to gain knowledge is to learn it from all angles. If there's a new idea, try to incorporate it with your already gathered facts. That's why we have brain don't we?


Sorry, if I got any wrong grammar here, as I'm not a native English speaker.. LOL

----------


## spaceexplorer

> You know, the best way to gain knowledge is to learn it from all angles. If there's a new idea, try to incorporate it with your already gathered facts. That's why we have brain don't we?
> 
> 
> Sorry, if I got any wrong grammar here, as I'm not a native English speaker.. LOL



The simple fact is...

Newport is NOT an expert.
He is an average guy, with a couple of years lucid dreaming experience, who is trying to set himself up as an expert.

His methods contradict science and what is already known about lucid dreamin, and his approach is that of a salesman.

He also insists in creating a completely new set of terminology on the subject, one that only HE understands... a classic way to become an "instant expert", whilst actually knowing nothing.

The question is this... would you rather learn real information or false information?

If you don't care, that's ok it's your choice.
However for those of us who want to spend our precious time and energy well, we don't want to waste our time learning nonsense from someone who seems more interested in promoting their own agenda than teaching the truth.

----------


## Something Else

I am just curious.  I posed this question on a different thread, but wouldn't mind bringing it up again.  Sorry for going off topic.  If in your opinion Newport is not an expert, who do you think is an expert?  The person can be an expert either on or off of these forums.  I am just curious because I love to learn from the best.  For instance, I have lucid dreams pretty frequently.  I had one today for instance.  But often times the forums are filled with people who have had 10 WILDS and now they consider themselves to be an "expert".  I would like to know who the people are that really understand lucid dreaming inside and out.

----------


## robrave

> The simple fact is...
> 
> Newport is NOT an expert.
> He is an average guy, with a couple of years lucid dreaming experience, who is trying to set himself up as an expert.
> 
> His methods contradict science and what is already known about lucid dreamin, and his approach is that of a salesman.
> 
> He also insists in creating a completely new set of terminology on the subject, one that only HE understands... a classic way to become an "instant expert", whilst actually knowing nothing.
> 
> ...



Oh I see.. 

I think you focused mostly on the way he delivered his idea. I think I can't even remember he actually said he was an expert, though I might be wrong here. 

If you can watch and read all his movies and pdfs, it mostly centered on OBEs. Which I believe is actually our spirit leaving our bodies in might be contradicting to what others believe that it is just a dream scene of your bedroom. I have already read a lot of books on OBEs and they somehow matches his method. That's why I can grasp what he is really talking about.





> The question is this... would you rather learn real information or false information?



Of course, real information. Are you justifying that he is giving out false information? I guess you even haven't watched half of his videos. Am I right?






> However for those of us who want to spend our precious time and energy well, we don't want to waste our time learning nonsense from someone who seems more interested in promoting their own agenda than teaching the truth.



You are saying that his idea is nonsense.  Maybe because it is different from what you believe? 


A lot of people judge a novel after just skimming Chapter 1.  ::shock::

----------


## spaceexplorer

> Oh I see.. 
> 
> I think you focused mostly on the way he delivered his idea. I think I can't even remember he actually said he was an expert, though I might be wrong here. 
> 
> If you can watch and read all his movies and pdfs, it mostly centered on OBEs. Which I believe is actually our spirit leaving our bodies in might be contradicting to what others believe that it is just a dream scene of your bedroom. I have already read a lot of books on OBEs and they somehow matches his method. That's why I can grasp what he is really talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, real information. Are you justifying that he is giving out false information? I guess you even haven't watched half of his videos. Am I right?
> ...



I've watched all of his available videos, i'm unwilling to pay for his other material.

This isn't about what I believe, What I believe is really not relevant, It's about established scientific facts about sleep which have been proven regardless of what any of us believe. Newport seems happy to throw out them of the window.

In response to the question from SomethingElse,

I think the first thing anyone should do to establish the credentials of someone claiming to be an expert, is to educate themselves. Get a basic understanding about the science of sleep, I'd recommend a book like "Counting Sheep". Then when reviewing the material of people who claim to be experts, establish if they appear educated on the basics... do they make claims that contradict already known facts? (if they do, do they KNOW they are doing this, if they don't, that's a bad sign, if they do do they offer a credible reason for doing so?)

It's very difficult to judge the credentials of an expert on face value, but there are some details that may help... such as what is their educational background? What if any "in the field" experience have they had, How do other experts respond to them?.

But really, it's not that tricky, how would you establish an exepert in another field? say biology?
Would you trust the guy with 2 years of reading books at home and a youtube account, over say a lecturer at Oxford University?

----------


## robrave

spaceexplorer, you are quite interesting. I can feel your anger against those people who overly exaggerating things, making up testimonials and other marketing strategies to sell.

OFFTOPIC: I have one request of you, can you take a look at this website and tell me what is your view about it? 

ONTOPIC: 
You don't need to buy Newport 102 material. 102 are his advanced techniques using everything from 101 (which are available in public, youtube etc) to facilitate learning of OBEs and LDs. Meaning, he is not *selling* the core of his ideas. 

For me, his ideas are valid when vieweng OBEs and LDs in somewhat bizarre angle. There is nothing wrong with it. It was based on his years of experience and the feedback of those who had tried his methods. He didn't say he was an expert either, as far as I remember.

As everybody is different, we developed our own styles and techniques, might worked for some, or utterly useless with others. Saying someones ideas as crap, useless and nonsense are degrading themselves as a person. Just because they can't comprehend the others ideas.





> But really, it's not that tricky, how would you establish an exepert in another field? say biology?
> Would you trust the guy with 2 years of reading books at home and a youtube account, over say a lecturer at Oxford University?



The difference between the first guy and the lecturer is that the lecturer has more practical experiences. But this doesn't mean, first guys' views and ideas are crap and nonsense or something trying to throw the science on biology when he accidentally stumbled a discovery of his own that contradict the current established on biology facts.


Though, I'm wondering, why does he need to use a microphone that large while he is presenting. A clip-on microphone is more trendy  ::D:

----------


## wRembrandt

Well I'm glad you told me about this because I was actually buying into his techniques a few days ago and I'm a newbie.

Y'know I'm just trying to find a shortcut to get into lucid dreaming now on demand.

----------


## Loaf

I hate the thought of using any drugs or machines to become lucid. Despite the fact you'll probably turn it into a dependancy, its much more satisfying to know that your practice and persistence has paid off.

----------


## robrave

> Well I'm glad you told me about this because I was actually buying into his techniques a few days ago and I'm a newbie.
> 
> Y'know I'm just trying to find a shortcut to get into lucid dreaming now on demand.



Even if you buy it, you still need persistence and patience. I'm on his 1st week of Sleep Training and I can't follow it because I don't have timer. If I use my cellphone, it alarms too loud and would wake everyone in the house LOL.

----------


## yuriythebest

> Even if you buy it, you still need persistence and patience. I'm on his 1st week of Sleep Training and I can't follow it because I don't have timer. If I use my cellphone, it alarms too loud and would wake everyone in the house LOL.




robrave- you might get a few LD's out of his techniques, no one denies that.  however what you are following is a very watered down commercialized "packaged" version of something free. 

things to do for you.

1. read this entire thread from the very beginning (might take an hour or so)
2.read the DV tutorials.

----------


## robrave

> robrave- you might get a few LD's out of his techniques, no one denies that.  however what you are following is a very watered down commercialized "packaged" version of something free. 
> 
> things to do for you.
> 
> 1. read this entire thread from the very beginning (might take an hour or so)
> 2.read the DV tutorials.



1. I stopped halfway because it all just arguments of their beliefs.
2. I have already read all DV tutorials yesterday. 

Maybe. But before I found his techniques, I have been to a few sites. Like Ld4all.  :smiley:

----------


## Denise

Duuude.


You told me to watch all of his videos.. x_x

----------


## robrave

You know... he is also the author of saltcube video that Jeff has shared.

There is nothing wrong with his method, there are just some people that call it was "crap" just because they can't understand it.

----------


## sheogorath

yeah, i watched a few of his videos and i was like WTF? He looks professional and has nice graphs but most of the information is irrelevant and leads you astray. I remember watching something about seritonin and meletonin levels and although the technique was true, it was mostly mindless time wasting data. Reece Jones is the best on youtube as far as DILDs go.

----------


## yuriythebest

> Reece Jones is the best on youtube as far as DILDs go.




yeah but his recent videos seem too "out there"  ::?:

----------


## TheDreamKing

I get his newsletter all the time and most of his techniques are from other publications and books but the other problem I think is he combined OBE and Lucid Dreaming into one thing which confuse a lot of people who's only trying to learn either OBE or Lucid Dreaming.

----------


## baccuss

As far as him creating his own jargon, seems like a lot of folks in this field do that to up their street cred.


WILD, SP, aps, OBE, DILD, ...blah blah

----------


## moonshine

> I get his newsletter all the time and most of his techniques are from other publications and books but the other problem I think is he combined OBE and Lucid Dreaming into one thing which confuse a lot of people who's only trying to learn either OBE or Lucid Dreaming.



Haven't all Astral Travellers confused Lucid Dreaming with OBEs though.

----------


## hardc0re

lmaao, 
i remember watching that video in the beggining.
and i knew somewhat about lucid dreaming,
and i felt SO stupid.
i did NOT understand anything this guy was saying.

now i know i shouldn't feel dumb.

----------


## Hermes|

I tried it and i had my first lucid the first time I tried it.  :tongue2:  it works fine and is just a easy shortcut. Go timer induced lucid dream.

----------


## Noogah

....I say he has some good tips at best.

An advanced lucid dreamer should be able to weed out the bogus, and keep the good points.

Anyways, if it works, who cares how it works?

----------


## Box77

> you can't treat this community, in it's current state, as a scientific community at all =/. People use so much bullshit terminology here it's not even funny/...
> 
> .../there's more Newport-esque misinformation even on this site then we'd like... but at least it doesn't come along with a BS sales pitch =/
> 
> This is one of the reasons I don't frequent here anymore =O



mmh... it's sad to see what could be going on here...

----------


## spaceexplorer

> ....I say he has some good tips at best.
> 
> An advanced lucid dreamer should be able to weed out the bogus, and keep the good points.
> 
> Anyways, if it works, who cares how it works?



Firstly the course is aimed at those new to lucid dreaming, so perhaps yes an experienced lucid dreamer could weed out the nonsense, but is it fair to be filling those who are new to the subjects minds with misinformation? obviously it isn't, and that is why so many of us find his work objectional.

As for "If it works, who cares how it works", well, ignorance may be bliss, but ignorance is also the foundations for wasted time, stupidity, dogma, bad science etc. etc.
If it works who cares how it works? I'll tell you who, people who really want to understand a subject, those who want to push forward, learn, grow, create... those people who want to develop the field of lucid dreaming. If you don't understand how something works, if you are building your knowledge on misinformation and ignorance, then you are burning bridges and creating a future where you will be unable to advance or learn, because your understanding is lacking.

Our entire world is built on the foundations of people who "wanted to know" rather than just accept things in ignorance, because it was those people who laid the foundations for computer technology, science, medicine, engineering, art etc. etc. etc.

----------


## jeffreydc

I would like to know which parts of the free videos at least or not accurate.  From the ones I saw he seems pretty dead on with the neurology parts at least.  I could care a less about what terminology he uses and if he made it up or not.  He came up with a way that works for him and decided to make a buck showing others HIS method so he can call it anything he wants and make up any charts and graphs he wants.  More power to him.  He isn't hurting anyone and it seems pretty helpful to me.  Sounds like someones really pissed they didn't come up with a system to make a profit first and decided to trash the guy out of jealousy.

----------


## robrave

> I would like to know which parts of the free videos at least or not accurate.  From the ones I saw he seems pretty dead on with the neurology parts at least.  I could care a less about what terminology he uses and if he made it up or not.  He came up with a way that works for him and decided to make a buck showing others HIS method so he can call it anything he wants and make up any charts and graphs he wants.  More power to him.  He isn't hurting anyone and it seems pretty helpful to me.  Sounds like someones really pissed they didn't come up with a system to make a profit first and decided to trash the guy out of jealousy.



We have the same opinion  :smiley:

----------


## Puffin

I just watched his videos yesterday. =/ 
I thought they were alright and sounded valid, but I've read this forum and shifted my opinion of them quite a bit. I did find the 'selling' part, like the last four minutes of each video, to be rather annoying and sales-like, but I didn't care so much as for the content. The relaxation exercises in one video worked well for me, but everything else in my opinion was a load of BS. I didn't understand the diagrams, and he did wander around a lot without getting to the point. =/ Waste of my life.

----------


## Banana King

I think it's really irritating to listen to him talk. He puts so much effort in some of the words. "THESE!! tricks are for everyone and can help you get your very... FIRST!!!!!! OBE." You can use that to plant sublimal messages into people but he seems retarded so I'm not that worried.

----------


## kingofhypocrites

Funny how people criticize his techniques, yet I've seen entire threads on this website praising the effectiveness of his techniques. For example there is another thread on his sleep signal and everyone on this site saying how it works so well. There is a casual mention at the bottom of the thread thats its from the SaltCube website (i.e. Nicholas Newport). Who cares if he comes up with his own terms. Someone has to make the terms at some point (the originator of the technique would seem the most logical choice). No one is an expert anyway, on this site or otherwise. Unless you've done scientific studies who can say for sure they are an expert at anything. Perhaps it only works well for them. But far as I can tell, his methods work for people so who cares if he wants to charge money for them. I personally liked his videos and found his timer method to be invaluable. I agree its a lot of sales hype and maybe he should state that they worked for him rather than treated them as fact, but for the most part he goes by his and his customers experience. You have to start somewhere. Just my two cents.

----------


## jarrhead

> Anyways, if it works, who cares how it works?




Relate this to music.
You can play a song, who cares how it's structured?

You can never keep a key, never write your own music, never improvise, and you have to remember every note and timing if you don't know how it's structured.

----------


## Naiya

I think the issue here is mainly that the guy charges money. Let's set aside whether or not his advice works for a minute. There are so many ways to learn to lucid dream. On this forum alone there are thousands of tips, tutorials, techniques, ect. You can get them all for FREE. You don't NEED to spend money to learn to lucid dream. If you want to spend money, that's your business, but it's still not such a bad thing to remind people that a guy is selling something that you can likely get for nothing. 

Now getting back to the techniques themselves and a guy setting himself up as an expert. *As it happens, we DO know of at least one true expert on lucid dreaming who does sell books:* LaBerg. So if I were to recommend that a person spend money on information about lucid dreaming, I would definitely say that LaBerg is a much safer bet than some guy on youtube. 

If the youtube guy's techniques work for someone, then great! Any way you get lucid. And we're all different--what works for one person might not work for the rest. So it doesn't hurt to try something new. 

But I do agree with SpaceExplorer that it's a good idea to be critical about some random person trying to set themselves up as an expert on something, making up new terminology, and then trying to sell you something. That should raise some red flags for _anything_, not just lucid dreaming. These videos in particular seem to have a lot of false information when it comes to science and biology.* So it's pretty obvious that while he may or may not have good tips for getting lucid, he is NOT an expert, especially where the science is concerned, and that is important to remember.*

----------


## kingofhypocrites

I'm aware of LaBerg and have one of his books, but he is old school and people got to move beyond that. LaBerg also has a very narrow view of lucid dreaming. If you accept everything he says, then you would also believe there is no such thing as an OBE, period.  This may or may not be true, but I'd rather find out for myself whether the two experiences are one in the same. Point being, people got to look beyond what Laberg preaches and realize there is still much to be discovered. Besides that lucid dreaming is a niche per se, it will probably be ordinary people like you and me who don't have the resources to run scientific experiments that expand the field with no information. Medical companies aren't exactly lining up to do sleep studies on lucid dreamers. People can't just discredit everything Newport says because he is selling it. Is not selling a book another way to make money? Then I guess LaBerg could be discredited as well.  I personally have not got Newport's sleep signal to work yet, but other people swear by it, so I think that there is probably something to it. The timer method he recommends I do find much easier than any of LaBerg techniques. I have a lucid dream almost every night using the timer, so it is definitely an easier approach the requires very little work. As others have noted it may not be the exact reasons that he believes it to be effective, but there is a science somewhere in there. 

Honestly I found lots of stuff in his videos that I haven't seen anywhere, including this site. So that part of his sales pitch is true in my opinion. I just think people are discrediting possibly great techniques simply because this guy is selling them. I will happily post all of this techniques here for free and people can just try them for themselves and see. Don't say something he claims is false and unscientific, unless you yourself can show scientifically why he is wrong. I see commends like "well my personal experience is this". To me that doesn't disprove anything. 

In summary, I don't see a problem with the guy saying, hey I have newer, better methods, if the methods work. No one has proved otherwise. If I had a complaint against the videos, I would say he should have tried to create at least a small structured study to verify that the phenomenon could be reproduced consistently in other people besides himself. Someone noted here or another site (cant remember) that its an issue of the mind's unconscious and conscious processes not communicating, rather than a body vs. mind communication thing (in reference to the sleep signal). To me this makes more sense and would reveal if true that there is validity to the technique, it just doesn't work that way for the reasons that he thinks it does. I think dreamviews is a great thing and a resource for people like me, but if we can interject his techniques and broaden our horizons, then why not. And if someone asked me where to start I would definitely say his videos over a book. Unfortunately he does focus too much of OBEs and doesn't tell you much about using the potential of lucid dreams, so you do need those other resources and sites like dreamviews.

----------


## ReachingForTheDream

> Honestly I found lots of stuff in his videos that I haven't seen anywhere, including this site. So that part of his sales pitch is true in my opinion. I just think people are discrediting possibly great techniques simply because this guy is selling them. I will happily post all of this techniques here for free and people can just try them for themselves and see. Don't say something he claims is false and unscientific, unless you yourself can show scientifically why he is wrong. I see commends like "well my personal experience is this". To me that doesn't disprove anything.



I'm pretty sure there isn't a single method that isn't mentioned on DV.

As for his videos, I did think they were convincing. But there were many contradictions to himself. They are also, imo, presented poorly when talking about their order. The videos seem to be randomly numbered. When I watched them I was confused by what I was supposed to already know because they just jumped from one thing to something else totally different. I also had trouble remembering anything because of this.

For most part I'd agree with spaceexplorer.

----------


## FarSeeker

Here's my perspective on this. Several times, I have seen mention made of LaBerge as someone who really knows what he is talking about. Well, I got nothing from LaBerge's books. None of them helped me in the least. However, other people clearly have found some of his techniques useful. I actually have found a few useful tips in Newport's videos. However, the only thing that has ever really worked fairly often for me were Galantamine and DMAE supplements taken in the middle of the night. 

So I agree with the "whatever works" sentiment. Newport may be overcharging for what he offers. However, if it works for you, it might be worth it. You just have to go with your gut instinct. Given the amount of time that one may possibly waste on techniques that might ultimately prove worthless, $20 wasted on an ineffective video is just part of the game. There just is no easy way to figure out what will work best for you individually.

----------


## Jove Risen

I'm getting a little confused at this point: Are we trying to discredit the guy because of his phoniness or because we don't like the fact that he is selling it?

From what I can tell, the techniques he uses and promotes are not necessarily better than everyone elses'. Here at DV we seem to have a crap load of techniques that are created by independant people all the time. Their creators vary in their guarantees of effectiveness, but it really boils down to the individual. If Newport's techniques work for some, then good for them. However, I don't think he needs to be bashed for promoting this. Still, if you're worried about misinformation, don't be. Techniques can be named whatever they like by the creator, no matter how dumb. Take the CAN-WILD technique below; I think its a good tech. and a witty name, but it could be called something else entirely, yet the content would be the same. Heck, I've seen so many different WILD tips and techs that I'm surprised people don't come up with their own names for it each time. Its called freedom of speech. Now that covers my rant on his technique promotion and his (dumb? IDK) techniques...on to the real problem!
It seems to me the biggest concern should be his selling of his "techniques". Here are my opinions:
1. He is not breaking any laws, in fact, he's being quite an entrepeneur (did I spell that right?) by commercializing this...stuff.
2. He's not going to make any money or at least, not much. Sure he's being a bit of a salesman with his shouting and crap but he's advertising on Youtube for god's sake. Most intelligent people should research a product before purchasing it. If every consumer went and bought what they saw on TV, Charmen (the thing with the bears) would be the only toilet paper ever sold. This guy's also advertising on Youtube and I doubt most serious people will turn to it the very first time. If they were to type "lucid dreaming" into Google they'd most likely find this site on the first page. Sorry, i'm rambling, but I guess my real point is that this guy is getting little airtime as it is and by making a big stink about some wannabe Billy Mays/LaBerge then we're just giving him free publicitiy.
Really, I'm advocating social darwanism (except this'd be academic related) here: If they're dumb enough to go to Youtube their very first time, buy only into this guy without considering other, better, cheaper (pretty sure I signed up free) resources, then the consumer of his product is obviously dumb and doesn't deserve to contribute to the gene pool that is humanity. Also, stop giving the guy easy and free advertsing: seeing this thread at the top of the "attaining lucidity" forums every other day is essentially giving the guy a bill board right next to an interstate whereas before he was on a dirt road in the middle of no where. One last thing, telling somebody "not to" or "no" is the catnip of humanity's curiosity.
End Rant and Bad Spelling.  ::banana::

----------


## Jove Risen

Sorry, the site flipped out and posted twice...or my bad...whatever  :smiley:

----------


## changed

If your going to watch LDing videos i recomend these channels they arent misinformative and they helped me induce LDs when i was a noob about a year ago.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ReeceJones87 This channel has stuff that isn't about LDing also, so you have to look through the videos  ::D: 


http://www.youtube.com/user/stephenberlin

----------


## Snowy Egypt

I personally wouldn't link anyone to a Youtube-based LD teacher, reccejones in particular. But that's just me, as I find that either they make up random crap (the LD Layers is a prime example) or they complicate things this and many other LD forums offer for free and have real sources for.

----------


## kingofhypocrites

YouTube is just another forum for teaching, just like this website. Everyone acts like the info off here is expert advice and labratory tested. 99% of us post from personal experience. If people try his methods and they don't work, than so be it. Lot's of methods on this website that don't work for some people. His methods work for a LOT of people. There are several threads of people praising his techniques. Most people who post them don't give proper credit and try to market it as their own idea.

----------


## yuriythebest

> YouTube is just another forum for teaching, just like this website. Everyone acts like the info off here is expert advice and labratory tested. 99% of us post from personal experience. If people try his methods and they don't work, than so be it. Lot's of methods on this website that don't work for some people. His methods work for a LOT of people. There are several threads of people praising his techniques. Most people who post them don't give proper credit and try to market it as their own idea.



if you mean Reecejones than if his techniques work- awesome. His latest vids are a bit too "beyond dreaming" but his earlier LD vids are very inspirational and I enjoyed em.  As for the LD layers - there was a similar thread on DV that went on from 0%-120% on the "level of consciousness" in an LD.  I find em very subjective - sure sometimes you aren't as conscious as you'd like (though recently this hasn't happened to me - seems to have been prevalent when I was first starting out), 

but dividing em into such specific categories is useless because we have no way of measuring our level of awareness in an LD and it can differ wildly from second to second.

As for lucidology - I'd run as far away from him as possible

----------


## Snowy Egypt

The ones who have been here long enough know that everything here isn't concrete. I'm not even referring to LD methods, so I should've been clearer in that regard.

There's no denying the Youtube is a teaching resource, but I think it's safe to say that when it comes to Lucid Dreaming, it's a very poor one. When someone over-complicates Lucidity by saying there are layers among other things is when I call BS. Members wonder why newbies are so confused and/or misinformed when they join, but when they mention people like reece it all becomes clear. Space has already made a great argument againt Newport's videos. All I'm saying is that I'd link someone to The Lucidity Institute before Youtube's LD section.

----------


## FluBB

> Hi Everyone.
> Anyhow, just a warning. 
> Don't believe everything you seen on YouTube.



haha only too true. i tend to ignore anything thats not hilarious or really cool on youtube because its probably made up or just someones opinion. thanks for pointing that out. im sure you helped some new people to lucid dreaming. should this be moved to the newbie section?

----------


## changed

> The ones who have been here long enough know that everything here isn't concrete. I'm not even referring to LD methods, so I should've been clearer in that regard.
> 
> There's no denying the Youtube is a teaching resource, but I think it's safe to say that when it comes to Lucid Dreaming, it's a very poor one. When someone over-complicates Lucidity by saying there are layers among other things is when I call BS. Members wonder why newbies are so confused and/or misinformed when they join, but when they mention people like reece it all becomes clear. Space has already made a great argument againt Newport's videos. All I'm saying is that I'd link someone to The Lucidity Institute before Youtube's LD section.



When I was a newb the whole layer thing actualy helped me understand lucid dreaming.  His videos inspired me to work hard at lucid dreaming and I had my first LD then 19 of them followed.  The whole layer thing broke down LDing and helped me understand it.  It did anything but confuse me.

----------


## Robot_Butler

I've never liked Lucidology.  The idea that you can trick your body into falling asleep by simply not moving is a load of crap.  

Check out this thread to find out why:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=81402

Spaceexplorer was always much more blunt than me.  Don't waste your time or money.  You will have much more success with the free information provided all over this forum.

----------


## Clyde Machine

I stopped into this topic and read the post in the other topic that Robot Butler linked to. Glad I saw this - until recently, Lucidology was the only other lucid dreaming site I was aware of. I know there are others, but that's the only one besides DV I know by name.

Again, glad I've been made aware of what's lying beneath the surface of all this. If I ever check it out, I'll keep a skeptical monocle over my eye.

----------


## chucklesx123

it worked for me

----------


## Clyde Machine

So long as you didn't have to pay for the cost-free experience of lucid dreaming, you're going about it in the most efficient way.  ::D: 


But then again, so long as you get to that lucid dream, I'd say that puts you where you wanted to be. If the site can help, great. If DV is all it takes, great. If it takes a little cash for you to do it, great - you're helping two people, in a way. So long as you get there.

----------


## Robot_Butler

There is nothing in their program that is not offered for free, here.  Their main method (which I think is B.S.  :smiley:  ) is summed up in this tutorial:

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=42271

Remember, no lucid dreaming techniques can really be discredited.  If it works for you, it is a successful technique.  These things are based heavily on expectation and placebo.  All that really matters is that you lie in bed and focus on something (anything, really) while you wait to fall asleep.  You could focus on begging the flying spaghetti monster to make you lucid, and it could work.  That doesn't mean the spaghetti monster made you lucid.  It means you used it as a focus.  

I'm going to merge this, since the discussion is already going on in this thread:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=81402

----------


## Dogod

Wow. I completely fell into this. (Not to the point of spending money, fortunately) It was mainly because I saw Saltcube and this, and I didn't realize that they were the same person's websites. Also, I just looked at it as another technique to use, not the only possible way to become lucid. Most of my information comes from DV and other good websites, but I didn't realize that Lucidology is a scam. I am very glad I didn't give him any money.

----------


## kingofhypocrites

> Wow. I completely fell into this. (Not to the point of spending money, fortunately) It was mainly because I saw Saltcube and this, and I didn't realize that they were the same person's websites. Also, I just looked at it as another technique to use, not the only possible way to become lucid. Most of my information comes from DV and other good websites, but I didn't realize that Lucidology is a scam. I am very glad I didn't give him any money.



It's not a scam. Just because a few jealous people don't like him creating new terms doesn't mean crap. His techniques work for a lot of people, and even get posted by other people on here claiming them as their own ideas. A lot of people praise the methods and just because it doesn't work for a couple of people who cares. You can argue whether it's work spending money but don't make claims and say it's a scam when you haven't even seen the videos. There is a lot of new techniques and ideas they I never saw on this site or any other. The fact the techniques work has been well established on this site.

----------


## chucklesx123

101 is free

----------


## Pleeb

Hi, this is my first post.
I found this site via google, after trying to find credibility for the lucidology site.  Firstly, this is a great site, and I look forward to reading the articles on here.  Though I'm no "newb" to lucid dreaming (wrote a college paper on the subject some years ago, and an article posted on another forum), I'm not the best at it either  :Cheeky: 

Anyway, I haven't tried any of this guy's methods yet, but one thing struck me when he mentioned the "roll-over" signal.  It was disappointing though when I realized this guy's primary focus was OBEs, rather than Lucid Dreams, which is why I started seeking elsewhere.

Anyway, to what I wanted to actually post.  I (and according to a quick search on this site, other members) have felt a "falling" sensation when trying to get to sleep; this is usually a VERY real sensation that you're falling (similar to sky-diving, roller coaster, etc).  Could this be some sort of "signal" to test if the mind is responsive?  Maybe it's the brain that controls the signal, but maybe it's testing the consciousness?

I have read other articles in the past in regards to OBEs, and one in particular skips the vibration stage and has instructions similar to this man's, except the author of the article claims that the "falling" sensation is falling through some sort of "void" that brings you to the astral plane (I can find that article, if anyone wants to see it).
But regardless, it makes me wonder what happens if you're able to resist that "falling" sensation; I may try to induce it, see if I can "beat it" (which I've never been able to), and maybe make a new topic with the results.

----------


## jarrhead

I personally believe the feeling of falling or tingling just before falling asleep is chemicals going through you that dim your senses, so you don't dream of being trapped in a bed all night. :p

----------


## zhineTech

just to bring this back up again: while this guy is total used car salesman / shopping channel about it, i find that most of his techniques, ideas, and graphs make total sense in light of everything else i have learned about LDing and OBEing. his focus IS OBEs, which is just slightly different than LD's.

as w/ everything else, take w/ a grain of salt(cube? heh), try out the techniques for yourself, and integrate it into your LD education and studies.

no need for hater-ade.

----------


## Siphorix

Firstly, about 70% of his claims/theories/ what he is saying DOES have merit.

Second, whe he said: _"The mind never knows precisely what the body is doing and vice versa."_ he was talking about the conscious mind.

Granted, a LOT of what he was saying didnt make sense what so ever... like the whole alarm clock waking up every 20min for 8hrs.... wtf?

Ive seen every one of his videos... Some can be very usefull, while others a complete waste... A lot of what he is saying is in the wrong context too, like the mind/body.

Would I recommend his videos to noobs? ONLY after they were educated enough to know what to do and what not do to, because there is still a lot of info summarized into a few videos, rather then dozens and hundreds.

----------


## EbbTide000

It is 3am and I woke up in pain.

I came here for some distraction from the pain. And found this thread. I read page 1 & 2 and felt sad cos I like old Mat-Nick of Saltcube fame.

I skipped to this the last (of 7 pages) to see what the latest posts were saying. They have cheered me up.

In 2005 I was just learning how to touch type, how to use email, to Google etc. I found Yahoogroups and just to find out what would happen I joined one. 

I was a bit scared so I opened a totally fictitious email called [email protected]. then all these emails from PsiDreams poured into my email box. Back then I might visit an Internet Cafe once a week. Back then, normal, cheap mobiles didn't have email access. 

My on-box would have from 1 to 60+ PsiDream's emails I'm it. I didn't know how to stop it and I would think "Yikes" and just delete them all, unopened.

This went on for 3 years.

Then on Saturday 1st of March 2008 I woke out of an amazing dream. I wrote typed it up on my stand-alone computer, copied it to floppy then went to an Internet Cafe to email it to a.friend, interstate.

When I opened my email account there was just one lonely email. So I opened it. It was from PsiDream. 

It shocked my socks off.

In short, I had "mutual dreamed" with Jennifer Dumperts dream group

 After that I opened started visiting Internet Cafes more frequently and opened every post from "psidream". I even plucked up the courage to post, a bit.

Later the site went quiet. It was the only site I knew about. I thought it was the only site on dreams. So I complained to CdeDream' a poster that I liked from the site. Then I had a dream with her in. I emailed her and told her about the dream and she sent me the link to Saltcube.

I came to Saltcube during EyeOneBlack's 30th (of 47) dream remote viewing experiments on the 27th of July 2008.

While EyeOneBlack ran his remote viewing, Saltcube was alive with many interesting threads. 

Saltcube is sadly (for me) very quiet now.

I am practically the only one posting there now. This guy called DrWho popped-in to "Wollup" me. He called me a "loon". Then he praised this site. That's how I found Dream Views.

I don't care if you guys hate my Mat-Nick, I like him.

Nicholas Newport hasn't posted on his site in yonks and I miss him.

----------


## Swikity

I honestly think you guys are just butthurt that he's getting paid and you aren't xD
If he's helping people get lucid, who the hell cares if his science is off?

By the way, I have no idea what kind of info this guy is giving, I haven't seen the package he's selling either. 
But I've been LDing for long enough to be pretty sure that 'rollover signals' are real. I've discussed it with many other members before and the more you can resist scratching, rolling over, changing positions, etc. the faster SP will usually arrive.

@spaceexplorer: now who's the one talking out of their ass? You're saying that SP isn't the response of the body, but that of the brain. Everyone knows this, and you saying that isn't contradicting any roll over signal theory at all. Yes, SP is your body's defense system so you don't hurt yourself while dreaming. Obviously your brain looks for certain signals before it enters SP or else what would stop you from being paralyzed any time during the say? One of those signals clearly must be whether any major limbs are moving. I'd like to see you try to enter SP while swinging around your arm, or even while doing a constant barrel roll in your bed.

@dreamqueen: Why is this so ludicrous ? The body and mind are controlled by different parts of the brain. If they were always perfectly in sync then it would be impossible to enter SP as the second your body froze up your mind would 'fall asleep'.

----------


## LucidSleeperCel

> I honestly think you guys are just butthurt that he's getting paid and you aren't xD
> If he's helping people get lucid, who the hell cares if his science is off?
> .





Nobody here cares about the money (at least I don't)
it's about the accurate portrayal of information... THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEAN!!!
and we want accurate information to be spread about LDing because we care about LDing, it's drastically changed my life for the better... in order to LD successfully I had to quit drugs, meditate regularly which caused an ease in my teenage temperament, and enjoy the act of reading which helped me get my GPA to 3.86 ... I care very deeply about LDing, because it changed my life... it saved my life. 
You talk like somebody who has little respect for the opinions of others, I believe you may have completely missed the point of LDing; it might not hurt to start from the beginning (aka writing up a new DJ) and try the process again so you might see why you're attempting to LD in the first place. But before saying comments like that, please think of why you're typing the comment in the first place... to help? or to hinder?

----------


## EbbTide000

Let’s get to it  ::angry:: 

Some of “You” respected DreamViewers hate my Mat-Nick’s (Nicholas Newport’s) work. Let us get specific about exactly what you hate.

I will begin at the free YouTube part 5 of Lucidology 101:

Part 5 (7:50) full transcript.

(00:00)

Hi, this is Nicholas Newport and welcome to “Lucidology 101” how to trick your body into falling asleep to quickly start having lots of OBE’s and Lucid Dreams without using any visualizations.

Here in part 5 we’ll cover the *exact* relaxation routine you can use to fall asleep quickly so you can cure insomnia and have frequent Lucid Dreams and OBE’s. You don’t have to spend hours of relaxing every part of your body in order to have OBE’s. About 90% of your body’s tension is in about 10% of your muscles. If you just target those Key areas you can relax quickly enough that your body will interpret it as a signal to fall asleep.

Most books on relaxation say to lay down and start relaxing at your feet and work you way up to your head. That’s not the most effective way to do it because the vast majority of your body’s tension is in your jaws, not your feet. 

The jaw is the strongest muscle area in terms of exerted force. The world record for bite strength is 975 foot-pounds for 2 seconds. No other muscle in your body can exert more total force than your jaw muscles. And no muscle holds more tension. 

Many people go their whole lives and never consciously think to relax their jaws, this causes “Bruxism” or teeth grinding which wears down your teeth and causes other problems such as:

toothaches
headaches
earaches
tinnitus (which is ringing in the ears)
and even dizziness

So the very *first thing* to do before an OBE induction is to relax your jaws.

(1:25)
This step is absolutely required. It only takes a few seconds so it gives you the most “bang for your buck” of all the relaxations you can do. Start with a very firm massage of the meaty part of your upper-jaws in front of and below your ears. This is called your (?) muscle and is the single biggest culprit for locked up muscle knots in the entire body. Press strongly with your fingers on both sides of your head and get a good hurt feeling. 

The *second step* is to squeeze on both sides of your jaws with your palms instead of just your fingers. You can use quite a bit of force when you do this because your jaws are quite strong. Let you’re your jaw go as slack as you can while you’re pressing. 

It is common to stretch before and after exercise by stretching your legs by touching your toes, but, have you ever stretched your jaw muscles? You may look silly doing this but it really does go a long way to relaxing your jaws.

So the *third step* is to relax your jaws as much as you can then use your fingers to pull your jaws open. You may be surprised at how much your jaws resist your fingers but by stretching them you can get the tension out. 

My Grandfather was the professor of a science called relaxology. One of his colleagues could relax his jaw so much that you could wiggle it with your hands and it felt like there was nothing holding his jaws on his head. You don’t have to relax your jaws that much but I mention it to give you an idea of just how much tension there is in your jaw even if you think you are relaxed.

(2:55)
*Step 4* is to stretch your arms and chest against the wall. Place a palm flat on the wall and turn the trunk of your body so that you get a very good stretch from the very tips of you’re fingers down your forearm, your bicep, your shoulder and all across your chest.

Exhale all the tension out. Repeat this twice with both arms.

*Step 5* is to stretch against the wall by placing both palms against the wall then bending forward. This really targets you shoulder and chest tension.

Inhale and exhale fully and slowly three times to work out all the tension, then stand-up normally, then repeat the stretch.

(3:30) we are half-way through this YouTube clip…
*Step 6* (to be continued) 

(fin 7:50) 3:30 half-way.

Right now I’m at home transcribing a pirated YouTube of video 5 of Lucidology 101. I will copy it to memory stick and go to Subbies Internet Café so I can put it on DreamViews. Later I’ll finish transcribing the rest of part 5 and stick it up tomorrow. It is 4pm Saturday 21 August 2010 here. (BFN DEB)

----------


## EbbTide000

continuing part 5 …

(3:30)

Step 6

Is to stretch the bottom of your feet by propping your foot against the wall and leaning forward. This will give you a good calf stretch. Repeat this on each foot and then sit down and massage the individual muscles on the soles of your feet with your hands.

Step 7

Is to stretch the palm of each hand by pushing the fingers back with the other hand this also gives your forearms a nice stretch.

Step 8

is the last stretching step. Do some slow, “windmills” to relax your shoulders. It is tempting to skip this step but your shoulders carry almost as much tension as your jaw. So, it’s important to stretch and relax your shoulder as much as possible.

For step 9

*Remember, one purpose for the “Roll-over” signal is to get you to roll-over, which causes you to gather and release tension.* 
Here’s a trick to speed that up or even skip over it.

Lay-down in bed and relax as much as you can for 15 seconds or so. Then roll-over and relax for a couple more seconds. Repeat this several times and it will relax the rest of your muscles quite quickly. 

This works because normally when you relax one body part to relax it you have to tense-up another part. For instance, to stretch one hand you had to tense up the other hand. By laying down and rolling around for a minute you stretch and relax everything a little bit at a time and finish your roll over phase all at once.

Once you’re done rolling around

Step 10

is to start doing “Stop-Drop-and-Roll”. 

Lay flat on your back with your hands above your head and start daydreaming. See Lucidology 101 part 3 on how to do “Stop-Drop-and-Roll” if you haven’t yet.


Step 11 

is to do begin “Sleep Breathing” see Lucidology 101 part 4 for details on that.

{Ok, folks, after I finish transcribing this (part 5) I will transcribe part 3 “Stop-Drop-and-Roll” then part 4 on “Sleep-Breathing}

I will transcribe the last 3 minutes of this, which is steps 12 to 16, later. (BFN Debra).

----------


## EbbTide000

(5:00)

*Step 11*

is to do begin “Sleep Breathing” see Lucidology 101 part 4 for details on that.

*Step 12*
Is to relax your eyes and stop eye micro-movements. Roll your eyes around in both directions a few times and then let them rest. The idea is to completely forget that your eyes even exist, To do that do

*Step 13*

count 150 heart beats.

Focusing on your heart for a long time will will make it feel likes it’s going to beat its way out of your chest. However if you get up and actually check your pulse you’ll find it’s beating like normal. The heart pounding sensation is just a trick of the mind which will help you distract you from your eyes.

After 150 heartbeats you’ve come to 

*step 14* 

which is to switch on the roll-over signal

drop your arms down to your side and move to 

*step 15* 

which is to tense and release each muscle group.

By now you should be pretty deeply relaxed, continue to sleep-breath and sense where you have some tention left. Slightly tense that area for a moment and then release it. This will cause you to relax that muscle further than before you tensed it. Start at your jaws and end at your feet.

To do this count 150 heart beats, starting at 300 which tires your brain out a little faster. After every 10 heart beats pause the count and tense and release another muscle group. For instance, when you get to 160 tense and relax your jaws. At 170 tense and relax your face. At 180 tense and relax your neck and so forth.

If you loose track of what number you’re on that’s a good signe that it’s working and that you’re falling asleep. When you get to 450 you’ll either be asleep or you’ll be feeling the roll-over signal. Or, if you don’t have a strong roll-over signal then just daydream and continue to sleep-breath for a while untill it’s srong enough.

When you really feel the need to roll-over you’ve reached

*Step 16*
Which is to simply roll-over and release any remailing tension.

Continue sleep breathing and you’ll black out in a few moments.

Two things that really speed things up are socks and earplugs.

You may not know how much your body temperature drops when you sleep but when your feet are just a little bit cold it’s really hard to relax. So, wear socks even if you don’t think you need them.

Ear-plugs are also incredibly valuable for falling asleep fast. You can get them at Amazon or Target. Silicone putty ear-plugs work the best and you can make them last for several uses by washing them with soap after each use.

Here is the complete relaxation system step by step:

(1)	Jaw Massage

(2)	Jaw Palm Squeeze

(3)	Jaw Stretch

(4)	Horizontal Wall Chest Stretch

(5)	Vertical Chest Stretch

(6)	Stretch Your Feet

(7)	Stretch Your Hands

(8)	Relax Your Shoulders

(9)	“Pre-Roll” To Dissipate Overall Body Tension

(10)	Start “Stop, Drop & Roll”: Hands Above Your Head

(11)	Start Sleep Breathing

(12)	Roll Eyes To Relas Them

(13)	150 Heart Beat Count to Forget About Eyes

(14)	Bring Arms Down To Enter To “Drop” Mode

(15)	Tense & Relax Muscles That Are Still Tense

(16)	Roll

Lesson Finishes here  at the 7:33 point of the 10:18 YouTube.

----------


## WanderingMind

> Nobody here cares about the money (at least I don't)
> it's about the accurate portrayal of information... THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEAN!!!
> and we want accurate information to be spread about LDing because we care about LDing, it's drastically changed my life for the better... in order to LD successfully I had to quit drugs, meditate regularly which caused an ease in my teenage temperament, and enjoy the act of reading which helped me get my GPA to 3.86 ... I care very deeply about LDing, because it changed my life... it saved my life. 
> You talk like somebody who has little respect for the opinions of others, I believe you may have completely missed the point of LDing; it might not hurt to start from the beginning (aka writing up a new DJ) and try the process again so you might see why you're attempting to LD in the first place. But before saying comments like that, please think of why you're typing the comment in the first place... to help? or to hinder?



The ENDS do justify the means if there's no harm done to the individual. 
You pretty much just did what you claimed he did.
The way in which lucid dreaming is done is still not a completely conclusive concept wherein one technique works for everyone.
We all have our little added ways of meeting our goal, so to imply that he's wrong because there's supposedly a "Right way" of doing it is completely rude. Not to mention using your story as a crutch. You have your right to think a certain way of doing something is right. He has his.

I can't believe people are being snobby about this. First it's taking supplements, then listening beats/tones, and now this. Unbelievable.

----------


## Ethereal

Debrajane,

Sounds like a Dan Brown movie, all those steps leading you to enlightenment. But have you heard of Google before? Clearly you've heard of copying and pasting, as the posts above me would indicate.

----------


## EbbTide000

I think you guys will appreciate this. 

I will do it in 3 posts and Ill make the font blue so you can find all three easily in between other folks posts. And if you think its crap say so. (!!!)

101 part 7 Lucid Dream Timer Method 

(00:10)

If you have ever tried to do OBEs or Lucid Dreams in the past and you were left wondering if maybe there was some missing piece or there was some secret missing key and if only you had that missing key then things would be a lot easier. Well here it is. Here is that missing key that I wish that I had, had when I first started doing OBEs.

Here in Lucidology part 7 well cover the Timer Method. This is a very powerful trick that allows you to cheat and easily trigger as many OBEs as you want. Ive read dozens of books on OBEs and Ive tested every single method I could find. There really is no method that gives faster results than this.

In fact its possible that youll have your very first OBE the very first time you use this.

That doesnt always happen but quite a few people have written in to tell me that this is the secret that got them over-the-edge to start having frequent OBEs in just one night. So far weve learned how to put the body to sleep as fast as we can and enter a subconscious focus. You start out awake and alert and end up asleep and in a subconscious focus on the lower left (video diagram).

But, what we really want looks more like this. What you want is to hover on the awake-asleep threshold so you slip into a subconscious focus without losing too much awareness by slipping in to a deep sleep. This way you retain full awareness in your subconscious.

You may be thinking, Easier said than done, because what usually happens when people try to do this is they just fall asleep and thats the end of it. The solution most books give is to hope that you magically become aware within the dream spontaneously. The idea is by telling yourself over and over while you are awake, to become lucid, that eventually youll have lucid dreams just from force of habit alone.

This is possible but its very unreliable.

It takes months of practice to get this to work and even when you can do it, its always a matter of luck, you never know for sure if youre going to have an OBE on any given night.

Heres the secret. What if you could cheat and manufacture your own lucidity trigger so that even if you fell completely asleep youd still end up having an OBE. It turns out such a secret weapon does exist. 

It is called a digital cooking timer.

(2:33)

Hi folks

I will post this and have a break.

----------


## EbbTide000

I am back, 

*What do you want me to google, Ethereal?*

To continue:

Heres the secret. What if you could cheat and manufacture your own lucidity trigger so that even if you fell completely asleep youd still end up having an OBE. It turns out such a secret weapon does exist. 

It is called a digital cooking timer.

(2:33)

The idea is to fall asleep as normal and dont even try to stay aware. You set the timer to beep so it wakes you up a few minutes later. By falling asleep and waking up every few minutes, without moving, you formed a safety-net so you dont fall too deeply asleep but instead enter a subconscious focus. This uses a principle from hypnosis called fractionation. Hypnotic fractionation means that when youre put into a trance then are taken from that trance the next time you enter a trance youll enter it more deeply than before. That means that if you can enter even the slightest trance then you can enter a very deep trance just by going in and out of that trance over and over.

This is how you can, hover on the awake-asleep threshold and ease you way into an OBE without having to use any kind of practice or skill. Remember that everything we covered earlier about the, Roll signal still applies. This only works when you use the timer and do not move at any point.

If you wake up and fall asleep 4 or 5 times in an hour without moving youll start to have spontaneous paralysis, OBE vibrations and OBEs.

However if you wake-up and then fall asleep twice, shift position, then wake up and fall asleep 3 more times, then that wont work nearly as well.

So heres the big picture in a nutshell.

(3:50)

First, you wake-up and fall asleep 4 or 5 times, without moving, using a timer.
{and you should use the sleep commands from Lucidology 101 parts 3 and 4}
This will put you in sleep paralysis.

Then you use movement-free reality checks {which we will cover in part 8} to check that youve shifted into a non-physical focus.

Then you use an exit method to convert paralysis into an OBE or lucid dream.
{well cover basic exit methods in Lucidology 101 part 12} and then {advanced exit methods in Lucidology 102}

To do this you have a couple of options for timers, including:

Cooking timers
Timer MP3s and
The Lucidology Flash timer.

I started out using a $10 cooking timer and it works just fine. To use one of these memorise the buttons so you can re-set it using your thumb without looking at it. Sleep with it in one hand then use only your thumb when re-setting it and the rest of your body will stay in paralysis.

Alternately, in your Lucidologys Explorers kit you get timer MP3s that contain pre-defined timer set-ups. To get these visit Lucidology .com. Finally, you can use the Lucidology Flash timer which also comes in your FREE Lucidology dream kit. The flash timer allows you to customise your timer set-up and change your intervals between the beeps however you want.

You timers set-up has a giant impact on how many OBEs you have. I have spent countless hours testing various timer set-ups and here is the most reliable workhorse set-up.

Its called Ramp and the intervals are:

8 minutes
4 minutes
8 minutes
12 minutes
16 minutes
20 minutes
20 minutes
6 minutes
6 minutes
6 minutes
(Repeating)

Here is what you can expect when you use the Ramp set-up.

During the middle of the 20 minute intervals youre likely to have lucid dreams and possibly spontaneous OBEs. During the tail-end 6 minute intervals youre likely to have OBEs.

Heres why.

If you have ever used an alarm clock to wake-up at the same time each morning you may have found that you started waking-up 5 minutes before the alarm actually started beeping. You had conditioned the subconscious to expect the beep but it does not like to be shocked awake. So, its response is to wake you up before the beep.

You can use this effect to your advantage by faking the subconscious out.

(6:10)Im going to take another break (BFN Deb)

----------


## EbbTide000

I’m back

This is the last 4 minutes:

If you have ever used an alarm clock to wake-up at the same time each morning you may have found that you started waking-up 5 minutes before the alarm actually started beeping. You had conditioned the subconscious to expect the beep but “it” does not like to be shocked awake. So, “it’s” response is to wake you up before the beep.

You can use this effect to your advantage by faking the subconscious out.

to continue:
(6:10)

The initial 8 minute interval is used for relaxation. 

After that the intervals start out short and then increase in length going from 4 up to 20 minutes, by the time you get to the 20 minute interval your subconscious is starting to expect another beep in the next 4 to 16 minutes. To avoid the “SHOCK” the subconscious goes on alert at around 4, 8 or 12 minutes.

However, during the 20 minute intervals those beeps never come. This is enough to make you become spontaneously lucid in the middle of a dream in expectation of the phantom timer beep that never happens.

The phantom beep can also give you waking sleep paralysis, because the body continues to sleep and doesn’t care about the phantom beep. Whether you get an OBE or lucid dream from this depend on where you’re focussing at the moment of the phantom beep, either in the dream or on your physical body. 

If you get a lucid dream your clarity level will likely be less than most OBE’s. However, lucid dreams are often a lot more fun because they often start out in some kind of strange other-worldly area which is usually more fun to explore than the non-physical version of your bedroom.

OBE’s often have more clarity than lucid dreams.

When you use the timer method you’ll end up with plenty of each so you can decide which you prefer.

The shorter tail-end intervals usually result in OBE’s rather than lucid dreams. This is because of the hypnotic “fractionation” effect that we mentioned earlier. During the short intervals you don’t have time to slip very deeply into sleep like you do with the long intervals. This causes you to hover much more closely on the awake-asleep threshold so that when a beep comes your more likely to have a physical focus that you can use for an OBE. This is the simplest way to trick your body into falling asleep and feel the paralysis wave. When the timer beeps your body may wake up for a moment but as long as you stay perfectly still your body will create the paralysis wave and put itself to sleep after 5 or 10 seconds.

This is also an excellent time to use the sleep triggers form Lucidology 101 part 4 to command the body into paralysis. 

So here is the actual method to use to have conscious sleep paralysis for the first time or even an OBE.

First, go to bed at 9 pm.

Second, get up at 4:30 am.

Third, stay up for 45 minutes till 5:15 am and avoid lights.

Fourth, go back to bed and do “Stop, Drop and Roll” to start to fall asleep.

At the end of “Stop, Drop and Roll” set your timer to use a “Ramp” timer session

Fall asleep and let the timer wake you up and put you in an OBE.

As good as this method is it does have two draw backs, first in your sleep cycle, the second is “false awakenings”. Getting up early in the morning to do OBE’s is effective but it can leave you tired the rest of the day. The solution is inductionless OBE’s.

Inductionless OBE’s are my favourite style of accessing the subconscious because they allow you to have OBE’s without messing up your sleep cycle. This is an advanced method that we’ll cover in Lucidology 102 part 8. 

The second disadvantage the timer method has is actually so powerful. This side effect is called “A False Awakening Loop” in which you think you wake-up physically but actually wake-up into another OBE. You may have to wake up several times before you really do wake up again in your physical bedroom. 

To solve this you basically need away to take the red pill (do a reality check) and figure out where you are and what’s going on. This is called a Reality Check. And not just any reality check will do. You need to do a movement free reality check so you can do it without disturbing your trance. I have tested dozens of types of movement-free reality checks and boiled them down to the 4 most reliable ones. Be sure to watch part 8 to find out what they are.
(10:15) end of part 7.

----------


## Ethereal

What I mean is, why go through such a lengthy process to find out about Lucid Dreaming? You said you thought Psidreams was the only dreaming-oriented website out there. A quick search of "Lucid Dreaming" on Google would have revealed much more, even in 2005.

----------


## EbbTide000

> What I mean is, why go through such a lengthy process to find out about Lucid Dreaming? You said you thought Psidreams was the only dreaming-oriented website out there. A quick search of "Lucid Dreaming" on Google would have revealed much more, even in 2005.



I wasn't interested in dreaming much in 2005 I clicked on a yahoogroups site just to learn how to join something on the internet. Yahoo kept inviting me to join groups. I got curious and gave it a go. but I soon regreted it when my in box kept getting overloaded from the group I joined. I didn't know how to turn it off so I just kept deleting them all.

then I got a dream on Saturday 1st March 2008 and everything changed.

I am still not that interested in dreams per say. 

I am interested in magical coincidences. I am interested in how dreams "merge" with waking reality.

----------


## Sam1r

Thanks so much for postings this...
I've watched these videos before and taken the advices into consideration,thanks,I'm back on the right track now...

----------


## edge0125

Some of Nicholaus method just don't make sense.  I wonder how many LD that guy has had, i wouldn't be surprised if his number was less than 20.

You guys should check out my LD How to video.
I uploaded this on Friday.  real advice that has worked for me.  and i tried to cover everything thing i know.

Part 1:




Part 2:

----------


## EbbTide000

Hi edge0125

it is 11:11 am here and I am watching your first  (10:01) YouTube called:

now it is 3:30 pm, Ive been at Netzone Internet Café for over 3 wonderful hours doing these 2 posts about your wonderful part 1. I am just reading through these two Word-docs before I post them.

Lucid Dreaming
How to To Control Your Dreams

it is good stuff.

In this post I will copy you informative frames from your part-one clip. In my next post I will transcribe every thing you say.

*Frame 10*

Note:
A lucid dream is a completely natural experience. It is just like any other dream except for the small difference of your knowledge that it is a dream. It has nothing to do with new age, the occult, or escapism, nor can it harm you any more than a regular dream could.

*Frame 12*

Remembering your dreams is the starting place for learning to have lucid dreams. If you dont recall your dreams, even if you do have a lucid dream, you wont remember it!

*Frame 13*

Dream periods get longer as the night proceeds.

The first dream of the night is the shortest, perhaps 10 minutes in length, while after 8 hours of sleep, dream periods can be 45 minutes to an hour long.

It is during the REM stage that we dream. The longer we sleep the longer the REM stage gets (which means your dreams will be longer)

(3:40)
*Frame 14*

Is a nice clear graph plotting sleep stages (especially REM) against hours slept in a 10 hour night. 

*Frame 15*

Dream Journal

Keep a dream journal by your bed and record every dream you have.

Eventually you will be able to recall every dream you have. Your mind will know that you want to remember your dreams.

(5:26)
*Frame 25*

Is the 2nd nice clear graphs showing 6 different brain waves:

Waking
Stage 1 sleep
Stage 2 sleep
Stage 3 sleep
Stage 4 sleep and
REM sleep

To the left is a graph showing the all 6 stages of  umm  consciousness across 8 hours (from going to sleep and waking, inclusively).

*Frame 28*

WBTB (Wake Back To Bed) Technique

The concept behind the WBTB technique is that you are utilizing the fact that you wake up in the middle of the REM state.

It is nearly impossible to go from the waking state into a lucid dream when you go to bed first thing at night.

As you sleep, your REM cycles will became longer. This means that your dream will become longer.

The goal in this technique is to wake up in the middle of the REM stage then you can go back to sleep and enter right back into finishing that REM stage (which is when you dream).

*Frame 29*

The 3rd neat graph of time slept with stages of sleep. Showing how time in REM increases (as the night goes on) from:

5 minutes (at ~90 minute mark)
10minutes (at ~3 hour mark)
15 minutes (at ~4 and half hour mark)
30-60 minutes (at ~between 6 and 7 hour mark)


*Frame 30*

A 4th graph 
In blue and red
Clearly showing how time in REM (dreams) increased the longer you sleep.

*Frame 31*

WBTB

Step 1:
Set the alarm on your clock or cell phone to wake you up 2 hours before you usually wake up
This is because you will likely still be in the REM stage, which is where your dreams occur.

Step 2:
Get in bed and go to sleep at night as you normally do.

Step 3:
When the alarm wakes you up, turn it off.

(7:22)
*Frame 32*

WBTB

Step 5
Try to stay awade for a few minutes (Some people prefer to stay a wake for a few seconds, while others prefer half an hour).

At this point you can try one of the Lucid Dreaming induction techniques. (which I will cover later on in this film)

Step 6:
Do a reality check 5  10 minutes to check if you are dreaming.

(8:14)
Frame 36

Reality Check

This is a way of determining whether or not you are in a dream state or a waking state.

(9:57)
*Frame 48*

Reality Checks

Examples of reality checks used by most lucid dreamers
(clip ends here with a note saying click here for Part 2)

----------


## EbbTide000

What is a Lucid Dream by edge0125

Lucid Dreaming: How to Control Your Dreams (Part 1 of 2)
YouTube - Lucid Dreaming: How to Control Your Dreams (Part 1 of 2)
(10:10) 112 views so far.

Transcript:

There are spaces in transcript due to no talking, because edge0125 has many lovely photos and hypnotic music. When edge does speak he has a dreamy and hypnotic voice (I think).

(00:43)
What is a lucid dream? The most basic definition of a lucid dream is being aware you are dreaming while dreaming. Typically this happens when the dreamer experiences something strange and when they stop the question the reality, they realise they are in a dream

(01:12)
In a lucid dream anything you can imagine is possible. Generally lucid dreams are much more vivid than normal dreams. A dream can seem as real as a waking experience. This is what separates a lucid dream from a (?) dream.

(01:37)
People choose to have lucid dreams for many reasons they could be for:

An adventure
Creative inspirations
Problem solving or even for
Stopping nightmares.

Whatever you can imagine, you can do, in a lucid dream.

(04:00)
It can be useful while you are developing your dream recall to *keep a dream journal*. Keep the journal by your bed and record every dream you remember. Start by writing down all your dreams, not just the complete ones. Even if all you remember is a face (?) write it down.

(04:25)
A major factor that affects dream recall is competition from thoughts competing for your attention. Therefore, let the first thought upon waking be,

What was I just dreaming?

Before attempting to write down the dream, go over the dream, first, in your mind, retelling the dream story to yourself.

When you recall a dream scene, try to recall what happened before, what you remember, and before (?).

Remember the dream in reverse.

(5:10) 
Another trick that will help with dream recall is, try setting your alarm so that it will go off when you are likely to be dreaming. We dream during the REM stage of sleep. The longer we sleep, the longer the (?), meaning that our dreams become longer as we sleep.

Our REM cycle occur at approximately 90 minute intervals.

You can use this trick by setting your alarm to go off at 4 and a half, six or 7 and a half hours after you go to sleep.

(7:51)
Have you ever noticed that you often dream about a certain situation or place or person? To a lucid dreamer these things are known as dream signs and they can be often used to induce lucid dreams more and more.

Normally to be able to recognise your own personal dream signs *you have to pay close attention to your dream journal.*

(8:16)
Reality check is a way of determining whether or not you are in a dream state or waking state. You should perform a reality check any time something is out of the ordinary or seeing on of your dream signs. 


These things should already put you in a mind set that you might be dreaming, the reality check is just to make sure.

(8:38)
For beginners it is recommended that reality checks are done at a much higher rate. The logic behind this is that if you get used to doing it at random times, in waking-life, it will carry over into your dream-life. Many people have had their first lucid dream this way.

(9:13)
For example:

That most of your dreams take place inside buildings you would do a reality check every time you walked into a building or entered a building.

The simplest form of a reality check is just asking yourself:

Am I Dreaming? and look at your hands.

It is important to note that you should never do a reality check mindlessly, take a minute to look around you and ask yourself if your surroundings are really logical. Ask your self, how you got there, why youre there and where are you going. (end of part 1)

----------


## EbbTide000

Part 2 
Lucid Dreaming: How to Control Your Dreams

Hi edge0125

Your music and 30 photographs in Part 2 are magnificent. For this clip I will endeavour to combine the, “20 information frames” with an accurate transcription of “what you say”. 

(00:04)

*Frame: 1*

Reality Checks

Examples of reality checks used by most lucid dreamers

“It is unknown why but in lucid dreams hands tend not to look right. They occasionally look fury and you can’t see the lines or fingerprints on them. Sometimes the fingers mix together and you find it difficult to count how many fingers you have. 

Another common reality check involving hands is to try to push your hand and finger through the other hand. Remind yourself before you do this reality check that if you are dreaming you hands aren’t really their.”

(00:42)

*Frame 5*

Reality Check

Breathing Method

“In dreams, your breathing is regulated by your real body. Dreamers often find it easy to breathe under water due to this. To perform this reality check, pinch your nose and breathe normally. If you can do this then you are dreaming.”

(1:01)

*Frame: 7*

Reality Check

Reading / Writing 
Reality check

“To perform this reality check, you simply read a line or two of text, turn away and read it again. In the dream state it is very likely that the words are different, if you can read them at all. In many cases the text will be black smudges.

A very common variation of this reality check is to look at a clock. Very rarely will two glances of a clock give you the same time.”

(01:36)

*Frame: 11*

Reality Check

Electronic Device
Reality Check

“Electronic devices rarely work correctly in dreams, specifically lights. In dreams, light switches never work, if they do it is usually delayed or incorrect.”

(01:59)

*Frame: 13*

Note:

Keep in mind that if we are not intently looking for dream signs during sleep, we will accept everything—no matter how strange.

Within our dreams we generally accept whatever happens—we usually just go along for the ride. It takes training to spot and fully realize the obscurities inherent within our dreams. You have to instil the idea within your head that if you see something bizarre, it’s very likely that you’re dreaming.

{sorry, folks, nature calls, so I got to log-off and have a bread, …URGENTLY,…  :Oh noes: }

oh, here’s the link to what I’m transcribing:

YouTube - Lucid Dreaming: How to Control Your Dreams (Part 2 of 2)

(10:00) 125 views so far.

----------


## EbbTide000

(01:59)

Frame: 13

Note:

Keep in mind that if we are not intently looking for dream signs during sleep, we will accept everythingno matter how strange.

Within our dreams we generally accept whatever happenswe usually just go along for the ride. It takes training to spot and fully realize the obscurities inherent within our dreams. You have to instil the idea within your head that if you see something bizarre, its very likely that youre dreaming.

Continuing from last post:

(2:27)

*Frame 14:*

PART 5

DILD and MILD
Lucid Dream Induction Techniques

*Frame 15:*

Dream Induced Lucid Dream
Mnemonic Induced Lucid Dream

This is oldest and most common form of lucid dream. Many people refer to this method as DILD/MILD.

The goal is to do reality check in your dream.

*Frame 16:*

How to perform the DILD / MILD technique 

Step 1:

Get a notepad and pencil and keep it ready by your bedside (within reach when you wake up from your sleep)

*Frame: 18*

Step 2:

Before lying down to sleep, repeat to yourself, that you will wake up and remember your dreams.

For example Next time Im dreaming, I will realize Im dreaming. As you tell yourself this, your subconscious will listen and will be more likely to do a reality check and become lucid in your dream.

(This is the Mnemonic Technique)

Step 3:

Close your eyes and go to sleep as you normally do.

(3:29)

*Frame: 20*

Step 4:

When you wake up in the middle of the night after a dream, take the notepad from step 1 and write down your dream. Recall the dream the best you can.

Step 5:

Close your eyes and go back to sleep.

As you are falling asleep, imagine that you are in the dream that you just wrote down on the notepad. Tell you mind that you will become lucid. See yourself as lucid within the dream.

(I had my very first lucid dream this way)

(4:00)

*Frame: 22*

DEILD

(Dream Exit Induced Lucid Dream)

The DEILD is very similar to the DILD. Your goal here is to re-enter a dream that youve just woken up from.

For this method you can either do this after youve woken from a dream or you can us the WBTB {Wake Back to Bed} technique.

You dont want to move at all after you wake up.

Then make a conscious effort to remain lucid and aware as you drift back into your REM sleep. If possible, try to visualize the dream you previously woke up from and see yourself re-entering that dream, but in a conscious state.

*Frame: 23*

PART 6

WILD	
Wake Induced Lucid Dreams

*Frame: 24*

WILD

(Wake Induced Lucid Dream)

Wake induced lucid dream is basically a method by which the dreamer enters the dream state directly from the waking state.

This method is difficult to master, and each person will experience the transition differently as we each have different physical and mental responses to it.

*Frame: 25*

How to Wild

Step 1;

You want to do the WBTB technique,

Keep your body totally relaxed and still. Let your inner voice go quiet, and observe any hypnagogic imager, sounds,  (This is normal  they are coming from inside your own head). This is the beginning of the dream state.

As the dream state deepens, hold on to this state of relaxation, while focusing on your intention to recognize the dream state when it occurs.

(5:14)

*Frame: 26*

How to Wild

Step 2:

Remember you are tricking your body to fall asleep consciously. So hold on to that thin strand of conscious awareness as your mind goes deeper. When your body falls asleep, you may hear and feel loud vibrations or humming sensations in your head.

This is the point of transition: from waking to the dream state. If you try to move now, you may find your body has naturally entered sleep paralysis, This is normal and occurs every time you go to sleep.

By now, your mind is aware but your body is asleep. At this point you can just step into the dream scene.

(6:11)

*Frame: 29*

Part 7

DREAM CONTROL
{I am taking another break  :smiley: (bfn Deb)}

----------


## EbbTide000

Edge 

Each and every photo in your two part Lucid Dreaming YouTube "Send Me" as in, releases "oxytocin" in my brain

I am going to upload each photo in the order they appear in your video's to my Flickr account and say what they mean to me in the description section.

Then I will open a tread here to explain why they "Send Me".

Your first pic shows a light behind the ear of an Indigo Dreamer. That part of the brain is a pleasure center that lights up when I l listen to wonderfull sounds and music.

Your second pic is a nostalgic ruin of a home I lived in long ago. 

Your third is Robert Van De Castle. He is in one of the first Dream Labs on this planet, back in the 1970's. With that hat on his head that he gave to the Cuna Indians. 

Your fourth is a metaphor of my first significant hypnagog of Harry Potter coming at me through a window with his friend the Wookie from Star Wars.

I could go on and on and on. And I will, on my Flickr account.

Uuuuuuu "send me" honest you do.

I will stick that YouTube in when morning comes. It is 11:49 pm Tues 24/Aug/2010 here now.

----------


## flight

Hahah newly discovered techniques. I remember coming across this ages ago and thought it was junk. The net is full of this type of crap.. i feel sorry for the people that did pay for it, but they do need to become a bit more educated on how some people use the net to sell anything.

----------


## EbbTide000

Thanx for posting Flight

You have been around here since April 2004. I am enjoying your 1st thread called "Reality" started in November 2006.

((hahaha) Stirrer !!!

----------


## zhineTech

whoa. that's a lot of copy and paste.

i still maintain that i consider newports stuff in line w/ everything else out there, he is just more detailed. things like the timer method are new even. there is a thread that is his timer method posted on here somewhere, without mentioning him however...

he claims to have had thousands of OBE's and he claims his whole interest in the field started trying to cure his insomnia.

----------


## zhineTech

> Granted, a LOT of what he was saying didnt make sense what so ever... like the whole alarm clock waking up every 20min for 8hrs.... wtf?



i have not seen this on there. there is a timer method with alarms going off at various intervals, but its only for twoish hours.

i actually do bet you could use an alarm clock going off every 20 mins for 8 hours though, thats like 24 chances to CANWILD/MILD/FILD/ but it would be annoying. you would eventually disregard the alarm clock.

----------


## EbbTide000

Hi Edge

Sorry that I didn’t get back to you (pm) I caught a cold and have been in bed for 2 days. But I am back at Netzone Internet Café now.

The pictures and music and your dreamy-hypnotic voice “Send Me, honest you do”.

Sam Cooke You Send Me
YouTube - Sam Cooke You Send Me
(2:46) 54,048 View so far

I wish I could put pictures up here but I don’t know how to.

Actually I will open a thread on my favourite site so I can put you wonderful photographs up. 

Sorry folks, but my favourite site is Mat-Nick’s (Nicolas Newport’s) saltcube. You know, that “car-salesman” who did all that “crap” called Lucidology 101 and Lucidology 102 and Lucidology 103.

First though I’ll finish transcribing the last bit of your Part 2 “Lucid Dreaming: How to control your dreams” (Bye for now, Deb)

----------


## EbbTide000

Sheila posted a thread called:

Robert Monroe Youtube Series

On saltcube in October 2009. I just found it while looking for something else. It was way down on page 6. There are 8 youtubes so that is about an hour of viewing. Enjoy!

Sheila wrote:

These aren't new, but they're interesting. 

Robert Monroe:

MonroeInstitute

#1 Monroe's Out-of-Body (OBE) Paranormal Transformation of Human Consciousness
YouTube - #1 Monroe's Out-of-Body (OBE) Paranormal Transformation of Human Consciousness
Done in 1992 by The Monroe Institute (9:11) 41,241 views so far.
{And that happened to Robert Monroe back in 1958}

#2 Monroe's Out-of-Body (OBE) Paranormal Transformation of Human Consciousness
YouTube - #2 Monroe's Out-of-Body (OBE) Paranormal Transformation of Human Consciousness
(9:11) 41,241 views so far

#3 Monroe's Out-of-Body (OBE) Paranormal Transformation of Human Consciousness
YouTube - #3 Monroe's Out-of-Body (OBE) Paranormal Transformation of Human Consciousness
(9:41) 15,224 views so far

#4 Monroe's Out-of-Body (OBE) Paranormal Transformation of Human Consciousness
YouTube - #4 Monroe's Out-of-Body (OBE) Paranormal Transformation of Human Consciousness
(8:51) 11,535 views do far

#5 Monroe's Out-of-Body (OBE) Paranormal Transformation of Human Consciousness
YouTube - #5 Monroe's Out-of-Body (OBE) Paranormal Transformation of Human Consciousness
(9:02) 10,386 views so far

#6 Monroe's Out-of-Body (OBE) Paranormal Transformation of Human Consciousness
YouTube - #6 Monroe's Out-of-Body (OBE) Paranormal Transformation of Human Consciousness
(8:09) 9,996 wow!

#7 Monroe's Out-of-Body (OBE) Paranormal Transformation of Human Consciousness
YouTube - #7 Monroe's Out-of-Body (OBE) Paranormal Transformation of Human Consciousness
(10:30) 12,367 views so far

Bob Monroe's first Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)
YouTube - Bob Monroe's first Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)
(2:42) 6,895 view so far

Here is the link to the little thread on Saltcube:

http://www.saltcube.com/out-of-body/...ic.jsp?t=57913

----------


## coolcorbin

i got a youtube account all leave a few comments on his vids saying its a scam

----------


## EbbTide000

Hi

Long before Mat-Nick put his Lucidology 101 on YouTube Nick Newport (then known as Mat Jones) sent me the the whole of 101 in 2 down-loads (a 17 minute and a 37 minute down-load). These are some exerts from my original 17 minute down-load. 

Sleep Paralysis

(00:00)

In this section were going to learn what is the easiest () way to enter into a subconscious focus without using any visualizations. It is called Sleep Paralysis. 

()

(1:24)

If you have read *Robert Monroes*  books he calls this state * focus 10.* 

So what does Sleep Paralysis have to do with Lucid Dreaming?

The whole trick to Lucid Dreaming is to enter a subconscious focus without losing awareness. 

*When you enter into Sleep Paralysis your body automatically sends your mind into a subconscious focus. You dont have to use any visualizations when you use this method because your body does it biologically.*

()

(3:40)

Here is the most effective trick to * break*  Sleep Paralysis.

()

Your breathing however is semi voluntary, so you still have control over it even in deep paralysis.

() Simply change your breathing pattern to some thing other than the sleep breathing pattern your body is already in. The most effective way I have found to do this is to begin to breathe deeply and slowly. () The main trick is to not panic 

(5:04)

Some people find when they enter waking Sleep Paralysis they find that when they were asleep, they werent breathing. The problem here is not because of the sleep paralysis itself but because they have an existing condition called * Sleep Apnoea*. Sleep Apnoea basically means you stop breathing when you are asleep.

()

(6:13) 

This is actually our main secret trick for doing visualization free OBEs and Lucid Dreams. This transition is the most important skill to learn for this part of the course. *When*  you can put your body to sleep without losing consciousness at any point you have *100% perfectly clear* dream recall. 

(10:30) 

There are 2 occasions when sleep paralysis is likely, they are :

When the body is very tired and wants to go to sleep as fast as it possibly can.

and 

When the body was very recently asleep but is currently very deeply relaxed.

11:10

()

Using this simple bit of information we can eradicate the single biggest cause of insomnia, *The Toss and Turn*  syndrome. When you toss and turn in bed what you are doing is resetting the bodies internal sleep timer each time you roll-over. The body is trying to go to sleep by sending you a roll-over test signal but you keep telling it not to sleep when you move.

So you end up stuck in a toss and turn loop and never get to sleep.

This results in insomnia.

()

(11:48) 

*The other reason for rolling over is that tossing and turning is a way for the body is to gradually dissipate tension in your muscles.* 

()

(12:28)

Eventually the Toss and Turn syndrome will cause you to relax enough so you will fall asleep, but there is a much easier way to go about it.

The easier way is called:

*Stop, Drop and Roll.*

()

(14:55)

Consistency is key. The more you do stop drop and roll the same way each time you fall asleep the more youll train your body to associate it with sleep. 

In fact, after a while youll find your body has associated the very first stop position with sleep and you wont need the other steps.

Some times youll have to roll over additional times in order to fully dissipate your body tension so you can fall asleep. *If*  you find that you do have to roll over additional times then when you get up in the morning think back and remember what it was that caused you to move. *Then*  the next night, relax those areas more deeply so you dont have to move again.

Hi all

The last sentence, above, refers to those exercises in the first YouTube I fully transcribed, which is 14 posts up from this one and the date and time was: 08-20-2010 (07:05 AM)

That post started at 07:05 AM (20th August 2010) is where I began my defence of Mat-Nicks work (Lucidology 101, 102 and 103).  :Shades wink:

----------


## coolcorbin

> It's not a scam. Just because a few jealous people don't like him creating new terms doesn't mean crap. His techniques work for a lot of people, and even get posted by other people on here claiming them as their own ideas. A lot of people praise the methods and just because it doesn't work for a couple of people who cares. You can argue whether it's work spending money but don't make claims and say it's a scam when you haven't even seen the videos. There is a lot of new techniques and ideas they I never saw on this site or any other. The fact the techniques work has been well established on this site.



Okay maybe its not a scam. but he is a sells man. he deleted my comment and only lets the good ones through. He is confusing as hell so you can continue to watch his junk. if you try to ask him for help he says watch this episode, which is no help. Why would anyone go to him for help when you can learn here on the DV forum? reading the video comments there are a lot of people who are confused so inventing so called new techniques is not good, when he does even talk about the old basic ones that most lucid dreamers know. good idea for a sells man invent new things so your the only one can help.

----------


## RealShift

Allot of the stuff he's saying is what I found out about here on Dreamviews when I first started my search for lucid dreams.
So you're saying I've been mislead, misinformed and have wasted the 6 months of my life?
Everthing you read here and  is seems like common knowlage at lucidoligy.

----------


## mcwillis

spaceexplorer you are completely wrong about Nick Newport.  I bought the lucidology 102 course and I had my first WILD within fiften minutes of using the computer menu visualisation combined with the shifted balckboard technique and stimulus spikes.  And I did this sat in my armchair.  To all newbs - ignore the first post in this thread and make up your own mind.  Nick Newport is an expert in his field.

----------


## DpsBob

He's a salesman trying to make money in an unsaturated market- that doesn't make him evil, nor dangerous. Just predictable.

And while the OP's point about the farce of mind and body being disconnected are totally valid, perhaps Mr. Newport is using "mind" in place of "the conscious mind", in which what he's saying would totally make sense. While the brain does issue the "move" or "roll over" command to test whether or not we are awake, we are not consciously aware that our brain is issuing that impulse behind-the-scene.

That beings said, I'd prefer to get my tips on lucid dreaming from this site over anywhere else in a heartbeat- I'm just trying to make sure both sides of the coin are seen  :smiley:

----------


## DpsBob

> spaceexplorer you are completely wrong about nick newport.  I bought the lucidology 102 course and i had my first wild within fiften minutes of using the computer menu visualisation combined with the shifted balckboard technique and stimulus spikes.  And i did this sat in my armchair.  To all newbs - ignore the first post in this thread and make up your own mind.  Nick newport is an expert in his field.



lmao xd

----------


## EbbTide000

Hey Edge

I am not the only one who loves your YouTubes. There has been another 300 views from Sunday 22nd of August 2010 till today (Tuesday 7th September here) 15 days. 

That is an average of 20 views a day. 

I have just put the lovely pic at the 7:55 point of your 10:00 part one onto my photo stream. Here is the link:

Cubby House in Tree | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

I will put all the description below cos at flickr you have to remember to hit the back-button in the far top-left corner to come back to flickr. So here is the description below:

When I look at this photo of a cubby house in a tree, I feel like these children in these 3 YouTubes.  

The first is an ad that comes on my TV a lot. It looks (to me) like it is about children dreaming. 

The next one has all the words of Climb-up my appletree and the last is another older Target ad  about children dreaming.

Climb up my appletree.
YouTube - Climb up my apple tree
(0:46) 46 views so far

lyrics:

You could be my White Knight
I could be your fairytale
You could come and save me
But that is not the end
Say, say youll play, mate
Come out and play with me
Come bring your dollies three
*CLIMB UP MY APPLE TREE*
Slide down my rainbow
Into my cellar door
And well be jolly friends for ever more
Target, 100% happy, We Love Kids.

Best
Oh, Playmate, Come out and Play with Me
YouTube - Oh, Playmate, Come out and Play with Me
(0:55) 19,653 views 

Target Every Colour You Can Dream Of (kids version; 2009) YouTube - Target Every Colour You Can Dream Of (kids version; 2009)
(0:30) 30,473 views

----------


## mcwillis

> lmao xd



After ten minutes I was getting a lot of memory impressions and was astounded that I was getting these on my first attempt and sitting up too.  I expected at least a few weeks of practice to get the memory impressions to become stable but suddenly an image of a mountain top plateau appeared and I fortunately was able to not look at it directly.  It began to magnify in size and voila I was there on top of this mountain top.  I was in a full blown lucid.  The snow was sparkling under the sunlight and wit all the astonishmnet I was back in my body with incredibly strong prickling vibrations.  So you laughed your ass off did you.  I started meditating 35 years ago which no doubt enabled me to do this straight away.  I was probably meditating before you were born so why dont you buy the course and start to grow up.

----------


## EbbTide000

Hi Dream Viewer’s

Yesterday someone bumped up a thread called “How To Tell How Close You Are To An OBE” on saltcube. Here is that someone’s post:

20-Sep-10 
(03:33 PM)
Gary
Hello everyone, I have had an OBE 2 years ago with SP (sleep paralysis) and all what goes with it. Once during sleep and another time during meditation. 

But after some months I started using Binaural beats and orgonite. These things would kind of create all kind of tingling all over the body. Which nowadays I don't feel anymore. 

What else to tell you that could have influenced me not feeling SP anymore: 

I had several energy healing sessions and chakra work done to remove wounds and blockages in my energy bodies. 

Then last week I remember that I went to bed, took up a comic book and then I closed my eyes but then I could still clearly see myself holding the comic book (astral eyes)? It was crystal clear I just somehow surrendered and positioned myself simply as an observer. I got excited and opened my physical eyes and the next moment I closed my eyes it was blank. 

I tried to use concentration exercise to do it but it wasn't the same as the first moment. I think they call this "the gazing technique" 

But now the question is, is that I saw the video on having vibrationless OBE's and I was wondering how do you know for sure when to exit the body without SP? Or How do I know for sure I am having vibrationless states?
{Here is the first Post of the thread, Dream Viewer’s. The thread was started in 2006. It has 30 replies and a massive 11407 views. I have never seen it before and I was wondering what you guys think of mattnick’s chart. Gig was not too impressed with it but gig is a very advanced LD/OBEer.

(First post: Nick)
20-Nov-2007 
(11:33 AM)

Nick (in 2007 Nick was called Matt)

One of the most difficult things to do is to know how close you are to exiting and unless you've done it a few times you don't know what's going on until after you've done it. 

There's no shortage of strange things that happen as you learn how to exit, this is a very good thing because they all act as signposts telling you how well you're progressing and what kinds of things you should do to make it to the next level of ability. We'll cover them in the approximate order you run across them as you relax into an OBE. 

A lot of these overlap levels of relaxation so you can use these charts to tell about how far you've gone depending on what phenomenon you're sensing at the time: 
(Dream Viewer’s, the chart is visible at

http://www.saltcube.com/out-of-body/...sp?t=how-close

You will need to register then look for “How To Tell How Close You Are To An OBE” which, right now, is at the top of the page. Or register then come back here and click the link again. Gigaschatten was not impressed with the chart and gig is a very advanced LD/OBEer but Kiauma thought different (hahaha) Ki always crossed swords with gig.)

13-Feb-09 
05:31 PM

gigaschatten

Beginners should NOT read this thread, advanced OBEers don't need to. Someone practicing a method to attain an OBE watching for side effects is very likely to fail, because it will distract her/him, break concentration, direct the focus on the body and cause excitement when an effect sets in. 

If you are a beginner and want to have an OBE, best forget anything you read in this thread and don't care about side effects. They may come or they may not. It doesn't matter much though, because you don't want side effects, you want the out-of-body state. Expectation is a killer - in a negative way.

13-Feb-09 
06:40 PM
Kiauma

I'll agree overt reactionary expectation is a killer - but meditative intentional observing consciousness is a quick trip to OBE land. 

Not sure how it could work otherwise.

(What do You Dream Viewer’s think of Nicholas Newport’s (Matt Jones) chart?)

----------


## EbbTide000

Ok Dream Viewers

I got Nicholas Newports Lucidology 103 today. 

It is an eleven module course paced at one module per fortnight (two-weeks) for 22 weeks. It costs about $25 American per module. 

I am posting because I hope to do this course with others, here, who are also doing this course. Here is the list of 35 topics that will be covered in the 11 module course:

01—	How precisely reality is created and why almost every book on “Creating Your Reality” is wrong.

02—	The afterlife: How to bread the Reincarnation Cycle.

03—	What Time actually is and is not and How to Manipulate it in OBE’s.

04—	How to Navigate Nonephysical Planes by understanding their anatomy.

05—	How to Breach the Nonphysical Quarantine Surrounding Earth.

06—	How to Use Nonphysical Transports to travel galactic distances.

07—	What not to do once you become Lucid.

08—	How mirrors affect dreams.

09—	How to Use non-physical cords constructively and keep from getting bound up by them.

10—	How to stay safe in OBE’s using the non-physical geography Map.

11—	Spirit Guides: how to avoid common dangers people fall in to.

12—	The Oversoul & how the universe is constructed.

13—	The “End” of the world.

14—	Detecting your other incarnations.

15—	Contacting Your Oversoul.

16—	Reading your soul records.

17—	Pre-life: When does a soul enter the physical body?

18—	Life planning or the lack thereof.

19—	How to: Your mastery of density to overcome blocks.

20—	How to make flying effortless.

21—	How to use a quick negativity purge to break through to higher planes.

22—	How to navigate buffer zones and non-physical planes.

23—	How to detect your charka energy centers.

24—	Navigating non-physical planes using buffer zones.

25—	How to make use of non-physical transports.

26—	How to escape from the Earth’s galactic quarantine.

27—	Breaking the reincarnation trap.

28—	Using OBE’s to find out what death really is.

29—	How to manipulate time and understand how time travel works without paradoxes.

30—	The non-physical superhero outfitter’s kit.

31—	Using Heart energy to overcome blocks in OBE’s.

32—	How to stay safe in OBE’s with non-physical combat techniques, non-physical map making.

33—	How to identify Frauds in books on OBE’s and non-physical areas.

34—	Pitfalls to watch out for and common “Wisdom” which can get you into Deep trouble.

35—	How to use Lucid Dreams to Supercharge you creativity and solve problems.

Hope someone at DreamViews will join me in doing this course. I think it is called: The Afterlife Explorer's Toolkit

And the first module is called:

Module 1: The Oversoul And How The Universe Is Constructed.

----------


## Antirealism

Hey guys, I'm just a newbie here who got interested in OBEs thanks to Newport's ads. Although I'm not really sure at all where to start or how to go about getting OBEs and LDs, and plus, I'm a bit hesitant about purchasing Lucidology 102 after reading some of the complaints here. So I found this free e-book School of Out of Body Travel by Michael Raduga plus the accompanying youtube videos. Are they teaching the right principles there, and do they actually work...or is it just pseudo-scientific crap? I really have no idea where to start, after getting confused with so much stuff when I was a kid, reading about WILDs, etc., reality checks, and oversouls, etc., and starting my dream journal (which I just couldn't do since I was too lazy to recall and write out my dream right after waking in the middle of the night).

----------


## mcwillis

> Hey guys, I'm just a newbie here who got interested in OBEs thanks to Newport's ads. Although I'm not really sure at all where to start or how to go about getting OBEs and LDs, and plus, I'm a bit hesitant about purchasing Lucidology 102 after reading some of the complaints here. So I found this free e-book School of Out of Body Travel by Michael Raduga plus the accompanying youtube videos. Are they teaching the right principles there, and do they actually work...or is it just pseudo-scientific crap? I really have no idea where to start, after getting confused with so much stuff when I was a kid, reading about WILDs, etc., reality checks, and oversouls, etc., and starting my dream journal (which I just couldn't do since I was too lazy to recall and write out my dream right after waking in the middle of the night).



I would start off with Mr. Raduga's methods as they are very easy and bring quick results.  However, Lucidology102 is the best course I have come across for visualisation based WILD's.  Four years of research, testing and tweaking went into the course.  It requires a lot of study to get the best out of the course as it is jam packed with a great deal of 'how to' information.  It culminates in one being able to do 'quick switch' OBE's in a matter of minutes.  I have found the initial OBE/LD blueprint to be the most effective and fastest way to enter a deep subconscious focus.  I don't care what the antagonists say, Mr. Newport's techniques work.

----------


## Recidul

I watched two of his videos and they are pretty confusing

1. He does use some confusing terminology of his own.

2. He talks pretty much about OBEs, but he doesn't explain what they are. For example he explains how to get OBEs and then suddenly starts talking about LDs.

3. The message I got is that to get an OBE/LD/SP you must be completely still for the whole night. I agree that lying still can help but of course you may move a little, which you do normally anyway.  

4. About 50% what he's explaining is nonsense. 

5. He writes that all other tutorials are false. 

6. He tells people to do exactly what he says, "go to sleep at 21.00 and wake up at 04.15 and stay awake for half an hour"for example, not mentioning that the amount of sleep varies between people. 

7. His techniques may work, but he discourages people to use them as mere guidelines. There are lots of people commenting and asking why the techniques aren't working for them.

----------


## Kona

wow this nicholas newport guy is such a douche

----------


## Kona

holy crap has this guy ever read of idon't know EXPLORING THE WORLD OF LUCID DREAKING DREAMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh my god i hate this guy so much STEPHEN FREAKING LA BERGE PROVED LUCID DREAMING TO BE POSSIBLE!!!! this guy is such a douche he is pretty much saying RHOO RHOO RHOO "i'm the only guy who knows how to induce lucid dreams and obes" i freaking hate this guy i mean seriously and exploring the world of lucid dreaming even talks about i think i will take stephen la berges advice who has actually gone to stanford and proved lucid dreaming than this other guy who is just trying to make money saying everyone else is wrong

i freaking hate this guy

----------


## mcwillis

> wow this nicholas newport guy is such a douche



You haven't studied or practiced the techniques for V-WILD's in lucidology102.  Have you ever heard of the expression, 'The pot calling the kettle black?'  

The combination of the shifted blackboard/computer menu visualisation/stimulus spikes/hypnotic fractionation he gives as the basic blueprint for the course is the easiest and fastest way for me to have WILD's.  I have tried all of the WILD tutuorials by oldtimers on this forum and they all failed because I basically suck at WILD's, which some people do.  Mr. Newport's techniques have worked for me as they are based on sound scientific principles that I haven't seen anyone else discuss here.  I suspect he picked up the basics from Bruce Moen and expanded on them.

----------


## atkins513

THIS ENTIRE TOPIC WAS STARTED OFF VERY BIASED AND NEGATIVE. 
WE SHOULD RESTART THIS SUBJECT - READ BELOW FOR REASONS.

I have seen this thread but I disagree with its title. It is also obvious that the creator of this thread is biased against Nicholas Newport, not necessarily the methods or whether he is knowledgeable or not. I personally think that if we are going to discuss someone's methods here we should start it off as an unbiased discussion about the methods and determine from the beginning whether the information is or is not correct. I have posted a fair and honest way to start this discussion in a new thread and it should over-ride a post of the same topic starting with negative opinions, even in its very title.

Can we please start this discussion fresh and unbiased at the thread linked below and discontinue this thread.

*Lucidology 101 & Nicholas Newport (Entire Video Course And Discussion Here)*

----------


## mcwillis

> THIS ENTIRE TOPIC WAS STARTED OFF VERY BIASED AND NEGATIVE. 
> WE SHOULD RESTART THIS SUBJECT - READ BELOW FOR REASONS.
> 
> I have seen this thread but I disagree with its title. It is also obvious that the creator of this thread is biased against Nicholas Newport, not necessarily the methods or whether he is knowledgeable or not. I personally think that if we are going to discuss someone's methods here we should start it off as an unbiased discussion about the methods and determine from the beginning whether the information is or is not correct. I have posted a fair and honest way to start this discussion in a new thread and it should over-ride a post of the same topic starting with negative opinions, even in its very title.
> 
> Can we please start this discussion fresh and unbiased at the thread linked below and discontinue this thread.
> 
> *Lucidology 101 & Nicholas Newport (Entire Video Course And Discussion Here)*



Atkins513 why have you put your new thread in the general dream discussion sub-forum?

That sub-forum's subtitle says, 'This is for discussion of general *non-lucid* dream topics'

The opening words on the videos is, 'How to trick your body into falling asleep to quickly start having lots of OBE's and *lucid dreams* without using any visualisations...'

This new thread should be in the attaining lucidity sub-forum just like this thread.

----------


## atkins513

> THIS ENTIRE TOPIC WAS STARTED OFF VERY BIASED AND NEGATIVE. 
> WE SHOULD RESTART THIS SUBJECT - READ BELOW FOR REASONS.
> 
> I have seen this thread but I disagree with its title. It is also obvious that the creator of this thread is biased against Nicholas Newport, not necessarily the methods or whether he is knowledgeable or not. I personally think that if we are going to discuss someone's methods here we should start it off as an unbiased discussion about the methods and determine from the beginning whether the information is or is not correct. I have posted a fair and honest way to start this discussion in a new thread and it should over-ride a post of the same topic starting with negative opinions, even in its very title.
> 
> Can we please start this discussion fresh and unbiased at the thread linked below and discontinue this thread.
> 
> *Lucidology 101 & Nicholas Newport (Entire Video Course And Discussion Here)*



If a mod will move it for me to the attaining lucidity that would be fine, but I think we should kill the discussion in this thread and continue at my new link. 

---- PLEASE DO NOT POST BELOW --- CONTINUE DISCUSSION IN THE NEW THREAD ABOVE IN GREEN-----

----------


## oneironeer

So, I'm a newbie to WILDs, and relearning Lucid Dreaming (as a kid, nightmares, and thus lucid dreams, just kinda came nature), and I can say that I have (or was?) certainly taken by the videos. Not every aspect (I remember thinking the graphs/pictures were often silly, and the ending of each video, with it's "Here's How to Order" bit felt funny), but I liked coupling the idea of hypnagogic imagery and tactile sensations, with a "move" signal (roll over didn't seem to work in my head, cause I know everyone starts and ends in different positions when they sleep).

Okay, so are there brain signals that test whether we're ready to be paralyzed? Because I came so close upon my first attempt, but I never read (UNTIL this guy's videos) that I had to keep my eyes still (I figured, "R.E.M.", right?), and after an hour of drifting on the cusp of unconsciousness, my whole body seized up. I thought it was anticipation, but I was really mostly unaware it was about to happen. After watching his videos, I thought maybe it was the brain getting tired of getting the mixed message of my body not moving one iota, but my eyes going crazy, zapped me to see for sure whether I was awake or not, cause I wasn't in sleep paralysis.

I agree with others here, the best way to fight fire is WITH fire, and his videos are still FAR better than most peoples on YouTube (except maybe another salesman, lucidpedia.com, and their videos). Most people discussing lucidity on YouTube look like tripped out hippies, losers in their parents' basements, etc., and I'd rather take advice from the guy who can shave, dress himself and at least knows how to put together a sales pitch.

Help us newbies! lol

~oneironeer

----------


## atkins513

*Hey Thanks for posting. WE ARE PICKING UP THIS DISCUSSION AT THE LINK BELOW* Please copy and paste your message into that forum.  :smiley: 

*http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucidology-101-nicholas-newport-entire-video-course-here-109585/*

----------


## LostOnTrains

> *Hey Thanks for posting. WE ARE PICKING UP THIS DISCUSSION AT THE LINK BELOW* Please copy and paste your message into that forum.



Hey you can't just hijack someones thread and start a new one and tell everyone to post there instead just because you don't agree with its title.
Although I agree the OP is very biased. 

I watched a couple of his videos and i have to say they are very boring... They are far too long and he does take a long time to say something that is really very simple. If he is making an infomercial, then he is doing it wrong. Adverts are fast paced, punchy. They get the points across quickly and are easy to understand. This guy is doing to opposite, I had to stop the video halfway because I was kinda bored by it.

As for the science behind it... well Ive seen a lot of people on this site claim to be 'experts' with similarly dubious advice and science. The only difference here is that this guy is making a profit from it. If people want to pay for his stuff when there is good advice available freely all over the internet, then tat is up to them. But I dont see how his advice can be 'harmful'.
But whatever, Im sure the free videos he provided do contain some interesting stuff if you can sit through them. Just take away what you want then use a free guide from dreamviews to achieve lucid instead of paying for it.

----------


## atkins513

With plenty of lucidity to my own credit I have to break it to you that whether the video is boring or not, I have used most of everything he has discussed at least once successfully or in combination with another one of his methods... Most of everything he teaches has science or common sense behind it, yet is unheard of on most forums. I see your new to this site so if you have not had your first, I suggest being open to what is available to you before dogging on it. I will be the first tell you that many of the methods discussed here on this site will sound unconventional or even silly at times but will yield a high success rate for some people..

As far as making a profit goes.. umm there is this one guy... umm man, its kind of slipping me.. darnit.. OH ya..  ::D: 

Stephen Laberge.. The personal savior and Christ to many lucid dreamers and everything he teaches revolves around selling. His website is booking spots for his camps right on the front page and selling books.. You think this website isn't selling anything.. see the ads at the top of this page? EVERYONE IS SELLING SOMETHING. Understandably so, Im sure the people who own this forum pay for bandwidth and put a lot of their own time into this site so I'm cool with them earning an income... So if the lucidology series is proving successful for many people, which it is, I am one. Then so what if the guy sells his second video series CONSIDERING his first one is completely free anyway?

Just today I found a post ( i can point you if you want) where this guy claims to have found a new method for lucid dreaming and gets all kinds of credit for people having lds through his thread, yet he was quoting one of the lucidology only methods word for word lol.... I've seen this more than once..

Maybe I'm in a bad mood but It's a bad way to start off honestly... lets try to get off to a new start here... The videos give good advice, the guy works hard on his methods... if he is pioneering new methods, he deserves to earn a living just as much as the next yohoo.. they are all the same to me, yet some of them have good information and should get a little credit.

----------


## LostOnTrains

> You've got 10 post into this site and you come in here trying to run it? lol...



No, Im trying to point out that you cant just declare 'thread closed' because as far as I can see...you are not a mod.
 For example: 




> ---- PLEASE DO NOT POST BELOW --- CONTINUE DISCUSSION IN THE NEW THREAD ABOVE IN GREEN-----



And _Im_ trying to run the place?


But as you seem to want to compare post counts and lucids as if it even matters, I'll point out that Ive had many lucid dreams and have been having them for many years. Just because I'm new to the site doesnt mean I can't call it like I see it. 


I think you read the rest of my post wrong. I was really responding to the original post by spaceexplorer. I thought that they were very biased in their view whereas I didnt really see a problem with the videos. As for the profit thing, what I  meant was that I think this is the main issue why spaceexplorer is so against his work. They see it as profiting from wrong advice. Personally I cannot see any problem with it, because I do not see the advice as wrong, just 'alternative'.
Thats why I said, you could watch his videos and then use a free guide on the internet to WBTB, WILD or any other technique. There is nothing pressuring people to buy his stuff, so i dont see why spaceexplorer is so angry about it. Nicholas Newport is not a 'danger' to those wanting to attain lucidity. In fact, as you have proved, many find it helpful.

As for the videos being boring. Thats just my opinion. Its okay to express our opinions here isnt it? Or do I need 400+ post count before I can do that?

----------


## atkins513

> No, Im trying to point out that you cant just declare 'thread closed' because as far as I can see...you are not a mod.
>  For example: 
> 
> And _Im_ trying to run the place?
> 
> 
> But as you seem to want to compare post counts and lucids as if it even matters, I'll point out that Ive had many lucid dreams and have been having them for many years. Just because I'm new to the site doesnt mean I can't call it like I see it. 
> 
> 
> ...



As you can see I had already edited my previous statement because I didn't mean to come off rude, and you still managed to reply to it lol... of course anyone can find a video boring.. I find the videos boring as well but I try to hang in there to get the information that seems worthwhile.. and I will allow opinions as long as they are in line :p lol,, obviously im kidding, lets try to lighten up... I didn't mean it the way I originally came off  :smiley: 

btw, if you didnt read my edited statement, do so now, I added some info I think is worthwhile  ::D:

----------


## Mzzkc

> Just today I found a post ( i can point you if you want) where this guy claims to have found a new method for lucid dreaming and gets all kinds of credit for people having lds through his thread, yet he was quoting one of the lucidology only methods word for word lol.... I've seen this more than once.



Link please.

----------


## atkins513

> Link please.



attain-sleep-paralysis-lucid-dreaming-within-about-20-minutes

method #1 and method #2, both taken directly from the lucidology series. 
Especially #1 for I have seen this nowhere but in this series and it works very well...
#2 Actually, number 2 works really well too when done correctly.. You just really have to resist the urge to move and sp seems to hit much faster.

----------


## oneironeer

Am I the only one who thinks DREAMING is a public domain kind of thing, and while people CONSTANTLY make profit off of public domain items (cheap DVD transfers of classics that slipped into pd, like His Girl Friday, or Max Fleischer's Superman cartoons -- to classical musicians performing hundreds-year-old pieces, etc.), it's not something you can slap ownership on and lay claim to?

So if someone wants to create a method and tutorial for Lucid Dreaming, Dream Recall, or whatever, and sell a book or DVD on it, it's their right. HOWEVER; if someone turns around and reinvents the reinvented wheel, the last guy who sold a book can't claim he's been ripped off. That'd be like Stephen Laberge suing all these forums and every book/DVD out there, and then getting sued himself by Buddhist monks. It's ridiculous.

But it's also ridiculous to hijack a thread because it started a discussion that has veered into a direction you don't particular agree with. Keep the discussion/argument in that thread. Freaking-a, I'm a re-newbie, and I'm just trying to get critical thinkers opinions on methods/websites, such as Lucidology, Lucidpedia, etc., but then I get the run-around and misdirected because someone wants to defend their personal favorite method. That's fine, defend it, but do it where the discussion began or create your own without trolling the original. It's just rude.

~oneironeer

----------


## atkins513

Realize something. I did not start the other thread because this one veered off in some direction I didn't like, I started the new one because this thread started with MISINFORMATION against proven methods.. I want Newbies like you to get the best results possible, therefore you should not be mis-informed by misinforming threads. My New thread starts off completely unbiased and with a poll so people have the option to decide if they agree or disagree. This thread starts off biased and ignorant towards the author of lucidology, thus also spreading misinformation about the methods. I want to help you guys, not hurt you guys. I think you deserve to be presented this information with an understanding that it works very very well for many people, but may not work for others.. not with some ignorant start about -WHY THIS GUY SUCKS AND DONT LISTEN TO ANYTHING HE SAYS... Why do people not understand the importance in presenting things off in an unbiased manner and why I started the new thread?

I want to start a new thread and call it "Lucid Dreaming - Why dreamviews is creating misinformation" or "Lucid dreaming - Stephen Laberge creating misinformation" haha.. then im gonna go on to talk about Stephen Laberge how most of his methods or wrong... Oh, but I'll guarantee someone will have a problem with either of those topics... haha

Seriously, MANY MANY people such as myself and others have much success with the methods of lucidology. Why in the world should we have a post that automatically redirects people away from trying those methods?? Instead shouldn't we have a thread about the methods and let everyone choose for themselves? Such as below.

*http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucido...e-here-109585/*

----------


## LostOnTrains

Its not about the fact that you created a new thread, its was a good idea to do that because you are free to express yourself... but so is the OP of this thread too. Therefore, the thread shouldn't just be 'closed' by drawing a line and telling people to stop posting here.

----------


## nina

I agree with LostonTrains. Don't try to get a thread closed or tell people to take the discussion to your thread, just because you don't like this one. Just be happy that you are being allowed to have a separate thread, considering there is already this one.

----------


## atkins513

I'm sure that if there were question about which one of these threads to delete my thread would probably still remain considering the original poster hasnt been on the site in over 13 months and now brings nothing to the community. I really do appreciate being part of this community and helping to develop it even though some of the contradictions here annoy me. For instance, someone makes a informative video series and gives away the entire first series yet sells the second series. His name is chastised and his methods attacked. Another man sells books, camp events, and continues to this day but he is a god in many of your eyes. Even though you claim that lucid dreaming should be free (which I agree 100 percent) but never seem to have a problem with Stephen Laberge selling everywhere yet people keep referencing him as a master. 

This is my last post in this thread if I can manage to keep myself away from it .I am tired of having to explain its obvious ridiculousness. Even if you don't like Nicholas Newport. Even if his methods do not work for you personally. They do work. Not only do his methods work for many people but they are also free.. Yes they work and they are free. When I was a newbie myself I had my first Lucid Dream using his timer method in correlation with this Sleep Paralysis methods. Since then at least 60 percent of my lucidness can be attributed to the methods of lucidology. Many of those methods such as the "translucent eyelids effect" I have never seen discussed here unless they were in relation to someone asking questions about lucidology. The "translucent eyelids effect" is the very first indicator in realizing I am dreaming in many cases. Most of the other methods he speaks of (that i also haven't seen here) work just as well and I use them regularly depending on the induction. 

Newbies ALMOST always come across the lucidology series in the beginning so It would be wise that we discuss it here in an unbiased fashion. If you fellow seasoned lucid dreamers and moderators want to help newbies as much as I do, then it seems you would want them to have all weapons available in their arsenal as opposed to deterring them away from methods that do work for many many people. 

 One other point about the lucidology series. The entire first 12 videos of the series are presented completely free even though they do advertise. I did purchase the 2nd video course a long while ago but later ended up finding it somewhere and downloading it on the internet so not only is it very informative but its also pretty easy to continue the second course for free if you can't afford it.

Onto the mis-information of this thread. 
----------------------------
ORIGINAL POST WITH CORRECTIONS BELOW


Hi Everyone.
I just wanted to put a warning out there for newbie lucid dreamers, and those of you who have perhaps come across the work of Nicholas Newport aka Lucidology.com or luciddreamtricks (on youtube). It would seem that what we have here is an individual who is looking to promote themselves as an "expert" in the field of lucid dreaming to earn a quick buck, However, it's important to note that Mr Newport, has no qualifications, history or any clear experience to justify his choosing to call himself an expert. It does get worse though, having watched all his videos, I would warn any newbie lucid dreamer, to IGNORE his suggestions. You will be wasting your time. Most if not all the information is incorrect at best. At worst it is completely misleading.

He promotes himself as an expert just like many other "experts" in the field of lucid dreaming. His "qualifications, history, and clear experience"
come from his own declaration. This entire topic of lucid dreaming is based on the trust system. When one of the lucid dreamers in this forum claim to have had an experience, we believe it. Nicholas claims to have had thousands of Lucid dreams as do a few people on these forums as well.. I believe he does because he seems to have an "inside" understanding of lucid dreaming as someone with history of doing so would. As for having watched his videos and claiming that no one should trust anything he says? This is creating misinformation itself. It is obvious that the methods did not work for the original poster or he didn't try them. However, as I have said many times now, many of these methods work for me with an accuracy rate that is even surprising to me. So if "newbies" were to follow the advise of this now absent poster, they would be possibly screwing themselves out of many many lucid experiences, or at least a later start than what may have been possible. 

Also bear in mind that his ultimate goal is to convince you of his expertise so that you will then part with your cash for stage 2 of the course.  Opinion of someone who failed using these techniques and quite possibly failed as a lucid dreamer but still opinion. 

He uses an array of marketing and advertising tricks to try to fool you. He firstly, has created his own language for lucid dreaming. Including methods, terminology and buzz words. He's basically trying to reinvent the wheel, so he can then claim he invented the wheel and sell it to you. What right has he to invade the subject of lucid dreaming, call himself an expert, and then confuse and mislead people by creating new terminology for methods and terms that are embeded in the culture of lucid dreaming?


Marketing and advertising tricks to fool you? Hmm, He adds an intentional advertisement at the end of each video to sell his second series. That is marketing, not a marketing trick, and it isnt fooling anyone. Its obvious. Created his own buzzwords, methods, and terminology? Strange, many of us on the forum seem to do this daily. We create new words to explain things we don't understand, create new methods that sometimes work great and sometimes fail. We also create new terminology for methods that we are testing in many times that there is nothing already existing that explains it in the way we feel suitable. Didn't Stephen Laberge create new terminology and aren't we all creating new terminology every day? Thats a great reason to chastise this guy. What claim is he making for being the creator of lucid dreaming? He isn't, in fact, he mentions reading many books by others on lucid dreaming so obviously he didn't create it..... 



Secondly, he trys to blind you with "science". I put science in quotation marks, because it is far from science. It reminds me of infomercials, and shampoo adverts where they say "here comes the science bit", then show you a load of meaningless graphs and numbers, all that make no sense, just to confuse you into thinking they know what they are talking about.
He DOSN'T know what he is talking about.


"Trys to Blind you with science"? Trys haha, Then blabs about shampoo commercials. 
Ok, the same "science" he discusses in the videos are the same "science" stephen laberge talks about on a regular basis. Most of the "science" from the lucidology series is also the same science that was proven by Stephen Laberge. 


Let me take an example:
In his STOP DROP AND ROLL video A ten minute long video, that can basically be summed up in one sentence: "if you're trying to have a wild, don't move too much" But here are the huge flaws in his theory: He claims something called Mind Body Independence saying: mind body independence. The mind never knows precisely what the body is doing and vice versa. He then trys to prove this by stating that hair grows on your body, and your mind dosn't know about it, or that digestive systems work without the mind being aware of it. Kind of vaguely true on the surface, but he takes these and other similar points, then draws the conclusion that: The body will test to see if the mind is asleep by sending (here comes his own terminology) roll over signals. A roll over signal apparently is any urge to move, or any pain in the body, when trying to go to sleep. These are "test signals" being sent by the body, to test if the brain is asleep (rather than just maybe, being uncomfortable.)
What he fails to address is: WHERE IS THIS DECISION BEING MADE?
Which part of the body, independent from the brain chooses to send a signal to test the brain? The spleen? the testicles? the heart? Also he fails to recognise that the mind and body are NOT INDEPENDENT there are a complete system in constant communication via the NERVOUS SYSTEM.  He also fails to recognise that Sleep Paralysis (which he claims is a choice made by the body when it thinks the mind is asleep) is actually as far as science knows, controlled from within the brain pons region of the brain.



Ok, first of all in the stop drop and roll series he explains a communication theory he has about how to tell the body you are ready to sleep. Its hypothetical and he even explains that is it something he discovered that worked for him, but its still hypothetical. Secondly in the stop drop and roll series he talks about Mind/body independence. He says that the body is always doing things separately form the mind. This is true. The brain does not send constant signals to each cell and tell it to reproduce or to each hair follicle and tell it to grow hair. There is a separation in what the mind controls and what the body controls that science recognizes. Science doesn't account for what causes sleep paralysis directly but they believe sleep paralysis is closely related to REM Atoniaia. So we can't say whether Nicholas Newport is correct or not about sleep paralysis but the fact is that we can't say for certain either way. His opinions of laying perfectly still are echoed here throughout dreamviews again and again. So we all know this is important for bringing on sleep paralysis because it works. We all also know that when we seem to be getting very close to SP, itching/being very uncomfortable are also very common and we have to try to ignore it to continue. So these theories do in fact seem reliable. I don't personally believe he means that sleep paralysis is controlled by a thought process of the body, but it does seem that one part of the mind tests another part of the mind to test its state. We do know that many parts of the mind are independent from one another so this is possible. So it would be possible that one part of the mind may send test signals to the body to see if another part of the mind would respond, thus meaning it is not sleeping. But this is hypothetical as well. He sarcastically mentions that maybe we are just uncomfortable and need to move? It seems that no matter how comfortable we position ourselves we still get these urges to move.. so where do they come from and for what purpose? It is unknown.. so this theory also is sensible, although still theory. 


There are endless contradictions to science, the science of lucidity, basic biology etc. etc. etc. throughout his videos. More opinion without evidence

If i had the time, I would like to break down each of his videos and point out the flaws and misinformation in them. Unfortunatly I do not have the time. 
May I suggest it possibly a DreamViews project, that intelligent memebers of the forum, help educate the new members to the misinformation in these videos?
This is what my thread is for, and what my thread is currently in the process of for those of you following it. I am breaking down the misinformation in THESE videos. 

Anyhow, just a warning. 
Don't believe everything you seen on YouTube.
Be extra wary when someone is trying to sell you something, and trying to blind you with made up science and lots of graphs, that if you take the time to look at, actually MAKE NO SENSE.
Lucidolgy.com may not be exactly a scam in the classic sense of the word.
But it is certainly hugely misleading, misinformation and bad for the subject of lucid dreaming. Its close enough to a scam for my tastes.
Be warned.


Don't believe everything you see on YouTube. Thanks, I'm pretty sure that part is common sense. The graphs on lucidology actually make A LOT of sense.. for instance how he shows hovering on the wake/asleep threshold makes it much more likely to lucid dream.. Yes, this is true and we know this, hence many methods to induce lucid dreaming use this. Wake back to bed, and many more. So this part is completely incorrect. "it is certainly hugely misleading, misinformation and bad for the subject of lucid dreaming. Its close enough to a scam for my tastes."More opinion and completely incorrect in my experience as well as many others experience.

So there we have it. And thank god its over, but I have just proven that exact original post of misinformation is in fact very mis-informative . Why does it even exists here in the first place? Thankfully he even suggested that someone create a new topic and truly break down Lucidology and the methods. Ahem... So he actually gave support to exactly what I am doing? That's interesting. For those of you who would like to continue a real discussion on lucidology and its methods.. including the accuracies and likelihood of them working (good or bad) feel free to continue at my thread below. Otherwise I'm really done wasting time on this thread. Thanks for reading everyone as this post took me 2 hours to write.. I hope it cleared a few things up. 

I'm seriously only doing this because I want to help people. I even mentioned you can watch the "paid" series if you don't have a way to contribute to the author if you must, but I can't link it. All this information is available for free. Just because the guy tries to sell his "advanced" methods doesn't mean they aren't worthwhile. Stephen Laberge sells his information but I've never bought a Stephen Laberge book even though I've read them. Try not to be too defensive here. I'm just pointing out the obvious. 

http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucido...e-here-109585/

----------


## EbbTide000

Thanx Atkins513

if folks find the green hard to read try highlighting it, if you can, then it is easier on the eyes.

----------


## atkins513

> I'm sure that if there were question about which one of these threads to delete my thread would probably still remain considering the original poster hasnt been on the site in over 13 months and now brings nothing to the community. I really do appreciate being part of this community and helping to develop it even though some of the contradictions here annoy me. For instance, someone makes a informative video series and gives away the entire first series yet sells the second series. His name is chastised and his methods attacked. Another man sells books, camp events, and continues to this day but he is a god in many of your eyes. Even though you claim that lucid dreaming should be free (which I agree 100 percent) but never seem to have a problem with Stephen Laberge selling everywhere yet people keep referencing him as a master. 
> 
> This is my last post in this thread if I can manage to keep myself away from it .I am tired of having to explain its obvious ridiculousness. Even if you don't like Nicholas Newport. Even if his methods do not work for you personally. They do work. Not only do his methods work for many people but they are also free.. Yes they work and they are free. When I was a newbie myself I had my first Lucid Dream using his timer method in correlation with this Sleep Paralysis methods. Since then at least 60 percent of my lucidness can be attributed to the methods of lucidology. Many of those methods such as the "translucent eyelids effect" I have never seen discussed here unless they were in relation to someone asking questions about lucidology. The "translucent eyelids effect" is the very first indicator in realizing I am dreaming in many cases. Most of the other methods he speaks of (that i also haven't seen here) work just as well and I use them regularly depending on the induction. 
> 
> Newbies ALMOST always come across the lucidology series in the beginning so It would be wise that we discuss it here in an unbiased fashion. If you fellow seasoned lucid dreamers and moderators want to help newbies as much as I do, then it seems you would want them to have all weapons available in their arsenal as opposed to deterring them away from methods that do work for many many people. 
> 
>  One other point about the lucidology series. The entire first 12 videos of the series are presented completely free even though they do advertise. I did purchase the 2nd video course a long while ago but later ended up finding it somewhere and downloading it on the internet so not only is it very informative but its also pretty easy to continue the second course for free if you can't afford it.
> 
> Onto the mis-information of this thread. 
> ...



I'm actually laughing as I now go through all the post of SPACEEXPLORER. (the original poster) The guy is an idiot and he attacks every topic he joins or starts topics attacking everything. He started a topic attacking shared dreaming. He joined a topic and attacked Dannon. This guy was a waste of a Dreamviews username, let alone all the space he wasted attacking topics and creating new ones.. I gotta say, im really enjoying following this idiot. Now i think its time to delete this entire thread. Obivoulsy this guy was a loser running around attacking random subjects he personally didn't agree with. ANYONE can just look through his archive of post. Thanks again  :smiley: 


Now, can we please continue this topic here

http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucido...e-here-109585/

----------


## LostOnTrains

> I'm actually laughing as I now go through all the post of SPACEEXPLORER. (the original poster) The guy is an idiot and he attacks every topic he joins or starts topics attacking everything. He started a topic attacking shared dreaming. He joined a topic and attacked Dannon. This guy was a waste of a Dreamviews username, let alone all the space he wasted attacking topics and creating new ones.. I gotta say, im really enjoying following this idiot. Now i think its time to delete this entire thread. Obivoulsy this guy was a loser running around attacking random subjects he personally didn't agree with. ANYONE can just look through his archive of post. Thanks again 
> 
> 
> Now, can we please continue this topic here
> 
> http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucido...e-here-109585/



Here Atkins, this is for you  :Cheeky:  
Don't take it all so personally.

----------


## atkins513

> I'm sure that if there were question about which one of these threads to delete my thread would probably still remain considering the original poster hasnt been on the site in over 13 months and now brings nothing to the community. I really do appreciate being part of this community and helping to develop it even though some of the contradictions here annoy me. For instance, someone makes a informative video series and gives away the entire first series yet sells the second series. His name is chastised and his methods attacked. Another man sells books, camp events, and continues to this day but he is a god in many of your eyes. Even though you claim that lucid dreaming should be free (which I agree 100 percent) but never seem to have a problem with Stephen Laberge selling everywhere yet people keep referencing him as a master. 
> 
> This is my last post in this thread if I can manage to keep myself away from it .I am tired of having to explain its obvious ridiculousness. Even if you don't like Nicholas Newport. Even if his methods do not work for you personally. They do work. Not only do his methods work for many people but they are also free.. Yes they work and they are free. When I was a newbie myself I had my first Lucid Dream using his timer method in correlation with this Sleep Paralysis methods. Since then at least 60 percent of my lucidness can be attributed to the methods of lucidology. Many of those methods such as the "translucent eyelids effect" I have never seen discussed here unless they were in relation to someone asking questions about lucidology. The "translucent eyelids effect" is the very first indicator in realizing I am dreaming in many cases. Most of the other methods he speaks of (that i also haven't seen here) work just as well and I use them regularly depending on the induction. 
> 
> Newbies ALMOST always come across the lucidology series in the beginning so It would be wise that we discuss it here in an unbiased fashion. If you fellow seasoned lucid dreamers and moderators want to help newbies as much as I do, then it seems you would want them to have all weapons available in their arsenal as opposed to deterring them away from methods that do work for many many people. 
> 
>  One other point about the lucidology series. The entire first 12 videos of the series are presented completely free even though they do advertise. I did purchase the 2nd video course a long while ago but later ended up finding it somewhere and downloading it on the internet so not only is it very informative but its also pretty easy to continue the second course for free if you can't afford it.
> 
> Onto the mis-information of this thread. 
> ...









> I'm actually laughing as I now go through all the post of SPACEEXPLORER. (the original poster) The guy is an idiot and he attacks every topic he joins or starts topics attacking everything. He started a topic attacking shared dreaming. He joined a topic and attacked Dannon. This guy was a waste of a Dreamviews username, let alone all the space he wasted attacking topics and creating new ones.. I gotta say, im really enjoying following this idiot. Now i think its time to delete this entire thread. Obivoulsy this guy was a loser running around attacking random subjects he personally didn't agree with. ANYONE can just look through his archive of post. Thanks again 
> 
> 
> Now, can we please continue this topic here
> 
> http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucido...e-here-109585/



Haha. Thanks for the Chill Pill  :smiley:  25,000 mg is a lot though, im afraid I might overdose lol

----------


## Kona

dear Mcwillis, what i don't like about Nicholas Newport is that he says all other people can't do the methods efficiently or good enough. Plus Stephen la berge just has a book that i can get for like $5 i don't have to keep paying for a freaking course or anything. i just buy the book, follow the instructions and BAM lucid dreams. he doesn't try to sell me other shit in there he just says do this and find out what works for you. seriously i'm not paying for some bullshit course from some guy who doesn't even have a degree in this stuff. i would rather buy EWLD from a guy that actually proved lucid dreaming to be possible. he has no disrespect for other scientist in fact la berge wrote EWLD with another scientist. Plus la berge doesn't put a bunch of bullshit graphs in his books that have no meaning he just puts valuable info in the book and ways to have lucid dreams. he urge you to subscribe to a course or anything

look i'm not saying Nicholas Newports methods don't work, its what he says that pisses me off, he says everyone else can't do it fast and that he knows it all. 

that is what i am getting at

----------


## atkins513

You guys keep mentioning graphs that make no sense. All of the graphs make sense. 
I know I cannot be the only intelligent person here. The graphs make sense.

----------


## atkins513

Not to mention that no one seems to disagree with everything I have written right above breaking down the original post. So if no one disagrees lets delete this thread. Also, no one seems to disagree that the original poster went from post to post attacking people. He was obviously a useless member. In order to see this, just look at his posts.

----------


## nina

What if some of us prefer to continue the topic _here_? What are you gonna do about it?

You are allowed to have your opinions. Let the rest of us have _ours_. You're obviously obsessed with this guy and his videos to take it so personally when someone mentions that they do not like him. And you jump all over them. Well NEWS FLASH! Maybe some people really think this guy is full of shit and his methods are crap. If that's how they feel, who the hell are you to tell them they are wrong!? It's THEIR opinion. Not everyone prefers to learn things the same way as you. Perhaps you just have an affinity to Nick. Maybe you're a lot like him in some ways, so you feel the need to defend him so much. Whatever the reason, it honestly makes me dislike the whole Lucidology thing even more. It's as if you're trying to tell people that they need to like it, and if they don't, they must be doing something wrong. This is quite simply, beyond arrogance...and I can honestly say, you aren't doing Nick any favors acting that way.

(now you're trying to get the thread deleted? lmao...there is no way this thread would be deleted)  ::shakehead2::

----------


## atkins513

You obviously have something against him (admitted above). I am not all about defending him. But considering his methods work so well for some, why can't we have a fair debate about those methods instead of instantly saying they don't work as this thread started doing. If his methods work so well for so many new lucid dreamers, then why would we take that away from the newbie community?? I was a newbie and his methods worked flawlessly for me and still do. That is my very point and a pretty good one at that. Why declare something that works for so many as something that does not work for anyone and point much of the community away from it? How devoted are you to helping people discover lucid dreaming and have their first experiences when you are taking away great methods that do work? Is it politics? The fact that he has forums also? 

I don't use his forums and I only use dreamviews. I like the community here when they aren't acting like communist Russia. I don't want to defend Nicholas Newport, but I want to help people have their first experiences as quickly as I had mine. I believe all methods should be up for fair discussion. I'm done with this thread and I'm removing my subscription from it. 

Anyone who wishes to have a honest fair discussion about these methods, feel free to join my thread. For the communist political types, feel free to continue here, as I don't wish to have that type if negativity in my thread.

----------


## EbbTide000

Lo Aquanina

At 7 I secretly cut myself trying to die. At nine I took handfuls of my abusive dads tuberculosis tablets hoping to die. No one knew about my termination attempt till I casually mentioned then aged 21.

At 10 mum escaped dad and was living as a housekeeper on a big sheep and cattle property here in Australia. She got hooked on Lobsang Ramper and his astral projection. She would come running to my room to read an exciting bit she just read from a new paperback she bought.

Lobsang Rampa wrote a whole book about an old soldier who blew his brains out cos he couldn't live with his war injuries. That made me drop any more attempts at suicide.

Anyway

What attracts me to Nick's work is it is a whole lot like how Lobsang  Rampa taught astral travel.

I hate dreams, I hate lucid dreams, I hate OBE's, I hate remote viewing cos I can't do any of it and I try and try and try. I like something else that ain't got a name. I'm good at that but it got me deleted and banned off the main forum at IASD. That happened on the 11/11/2010 and I am still banned.

So

I am back to lonely and boring dreams, lucid dreams and OBE's.

I got Nick's 101 long before it went to YouTube. So my 37 minutes doesn't have any "buy 102" advertising in it.

Today I stopped taking my pain medication and I stopped watching TV so I can keep my brain more receptive to LUCIDITY.

I will post in this MEAN thread how I am working at Lucidity. Cos you mods sound like you going to delete the other thread. (I'll be back later)

----------


## mcwillis

I too had to pay for my lucidology 101 course too before it became free and I was very happy with my purchase.  I bought it because of the positivity of the testimonials at the saltcube website.  My first attempt at his method - a very nice easy lucid dream.  In fact it doesn't get much easier than this for a lot of people.  Wake up, start the flash timer, go back to sleep and have a lucid dream.  And Nick has decided to kindly now give us this for free.

----------


## EbbTide000

It is past midnight now here so I'm off to bed. 

I've been watching my old 101 download and pulled out some exerts. Here they are:

37 minute 101 download, long before it was chopped-up and put on YouTube.

(00:25) Welcome to volume one of "The How to have Lucid Dreams and have Out of Body Experiences presentation series". In this presentation you'll learn how to trick your body into falling asleep to enter a Lucid Dream. (...)

...To keep your mind awake while you fall asleep.

...So you can fall asleep quickly but without falling so far asleep that you can't become Lucid.

(1:16) Are you aware that you are in a dream and do you remember that your body is asleep in bed?. 

(1:33) It is by consciously remembering that your body is really asleep in bed that you go the full circle to become Lucid.

(2:42) Sleep paralysis is the protection mechanism that the body uses when you sleep.

(3:13) But we're going to learn about entering a state called "mind-awake, body-asleep" in which we will remain aware and feel what it's like to watch the body shut-down and put itself to sleep.

(3:45) When you enter full-sleep-paralysis (...) you will still be able to move your eyes and look around and control your breathing.

(4:05) The basic strategy is to trick the body into thinking its already asleep.

(4:30) Normally, if you're awake and you feel that you should fill-over, you just do it without thinking

(4:35) If the mind is asleep then the message is not acted on and the body knows it's safe to shut down (into sleep paralysis).

(5:25) The "roll-over-signal" is just one of the words in the body's language.

(5:27) Another word in this language is "to keep the eye's extremely still".

The body expects to be still for a long period before it (initiates sleep paralysis). But, inactivity in the eyes makes the bigest in fooling the body (into initiating sleep paralysis).

(5:55) If you close your eyes and try to keep them still you'll find that after about 30 seconds they're still twitching very slightly. It is not easy to totally relax the eyes. However, if you can keep them at complete ease for several minutes the body will interpret that as a signal that the mind may have fallen asleep.

So,

In order to practice falling asleep quickly, when you go to sleep at night, put special attention on the eyes and let them relax deeply until there is no tension in them at all.

It may take several nights of practice but once you get the feeling for having "very relaxed eyes" it becomes much easier to relax them again.

(6:33) You should practice getting a feeling for what the eyes feel like when you first wake-up in the morning before you even open your eyes.

In fact practicing not moving at all when you first wake-up is a good Lucid Dreaming skill. Often times if you have not moved at all when you wake-up you can relax directly back into your most recent dream and slip into paralysis again.

(that's from the first 7 minutes of my 37 minute 101 down-load.)

Past midnight here, so, night-night.

----------


## nina

:Picard face palm: 





> Anyone who wishes to have a honest fair discussion about these methods, feel free to join my thread. For the communist political types, feel free to continue here, as I don't wish to have that type if negativity in my thread.



How the hell are we communist? Now you're just delusional. Obviously I care about teaching people to lucid dream. I've been doing it RIGHT HERE FOR THE LAST 7 YEARS....ABSOLUTELY FREE!!!!!!! Imagine that.  ::roll:: 

I never said his methods don't work. I said they don't work for me, and I feel like this guy is doing exactly what he has been accused of doing in this very same thread. Creating new terms to confuse people into thinking his ideas are novel and deserve to be paid for. It's ridiculous. But that's my opinion, it's up to each and every person to decide these things for themselves.

----------


## Kona

> How the hell are we communist? Now you're just delusional. Obviously I care about teaching people to lucid dream. I've been doing it RIGHT HERE FOR THE LAST 7 YEARS....ABSOLUTELY FREE!!!!!!! Imagine that. 
> 
> I never said his methods don't work. I said they don't work for me, and I feel like this guy is doing exactly what he has been accused of doing in this very same thread. Creating new terms to confuse people into thinking his ideas are novel and deserve to be paid for. It's ridiculous. But that's my opinion, it's up to each and every person to decide these things for themselves.



exactly right aquanina that makes no freaking sense. how the hell ARE we communist for discussing this. he just wants all the attention on his thread. why the hell do we need a new thread. the stuff discussed here is exactly on topic. 

and to atkins if you don't want negativity in your thread HOW THE HELL WILL WE ACTUALLY DISCUSS THIS!??  an argument has both positive sides for the topic and negative sides. pretty much what he is saying is "come to my thread if you are a nick newport fanboy!!!!"

my god atkins

----------


## Kona

> It is past midnight now here so I'm off to bed. 
> 
> I've been watching my old 101 download and pulled out some exerts. Here they are:
> 
> 37 minute 101 download, long before it was chopped-up and put on YouTube.
> 
> (00:25) Welcome to volume one of "The How to have Lucid Dreams and have Out of Body Experiences presentation series". In this presentation you'll learn how to trick your body into falling asleep to enter a Lucid Dream. (...)
> 
> ...To keep your mind awake while you fall asleep.
> ...



really, Really, REALLY now i'm not as good as people at lucid dreaming on here but it seems to me that all he is doing is just DDDDDDRRRRRAAAAAGGGGGIIIIINNNNNGGGGG out the technique we call a WILD which was invented by stephen la berge which really gives no justice to him saying " oh all the other techniques didn't work here come try mine!!!" all he is really saying is "don't move too much when you wild and now here come buy this bullshit program i invented and no one else is a good as me"

that is really the message i got from that video

----------


## saltyseedog

He makes it to complicated

----------


## atkins513

I've been staying away from this thread the best I can, but it isn't the discussion I have a problem with, its how the very first post started off the discussion. The guy who started it, now absent, was a nuisance to DV. He ran from thread to thread attacking them and started threads attacking good methods, not just lucidology. This thread started off pushing newbies away from very good methods that work very well for many people, Hence, knocking newbies out of many opportunities for lucidity, thus slowing their progress. Had I listened to the things I found here about lucidology when I first found it, as a newbie, I would be far behind from where I am now. I found this thread when I first joined DV and went against its advice eventually finding that it was misinformation. THAT is why I am here. I want to help as many people as I can to learn lucid dreaming, not set them back as this thread would have me had I paid it any attention. Also, lucidology 101 is free and has lots of good information for New lucid dreamers. I'm not trying to sell L102, because it's also easily found for free. 

Guys, I was a newbie. Regardless of whether these methods work for everyone, They work very very well for some newbies and should be discussed in a fair light as well. 

We aren't enemies as I would assume we all have the same goals for the DV community.

Anyways, have fun here guys.

----------


## Kona

> I've been staying away from this thread the best I can, but it isn't the discussion I have a problem with, its how the very first post started off the discussion. The guy who started it, now absent, was a nuisance to DV. He ran from thread to thread attacking them and started threads attacking good methods, not just lucidology. This thread started off pushing newbies away from very good methods that work very well for many people, Hence, knocking newbies out of many opportunities for lucidity, thus slowing their progress. Had I listened to the things I found here about lucidology when I first found it, as a newbie, I would be far behind from where I am now. I found this thread when I first joined DV and went against its advice eventually finding that it was misinformation. THAT is why I am here. I want to help as many people as I can to learn lucid dreaming, not set them back as this thread would have me had I paid it any attention. Also, lucidology 101 is free and has lots of good information for New lucid dreamers. I'm not trying to sell L102, because it's also easily found for free. 
> 
> Guys, I was a newbie. Regardless of whether these methods work for everyone, They work very very well for some newbies and should be discussed in a fair light as well. 
> 
> We aren't enemies as I would assume we all have the same goals for the DV community.
> 
> Anyways, have fun here guys.



dude just get out, nobody really wants you trying to make us come to your thread

----------


## atkins513

> dude just get out, nobody really wants you trying to make us come to your thread



Umm ok, I was being civil. Shows how immature some people are I guess. You can rest assured I don't want you in my thread. I made a very excellent point and your come back was childish and senseless. Good job. Not to mention you are showing your bias, the same as this thread started off, by not wanting both sides to be debated. Shame to see you say you are struggling with LD'ing yet not open to all methods apparently.  :smiley: 

Have a good one.

----------


## Kona

> Umm ok, I was being civil. Shows how immature some people are I guess. You can rest assured I don't want you in my thread. I made a very excellent point and your come back was childish and senseless. Good job. Not to mention you are showing your bias, the same as this thread started off, by not wanting both sides to be debated. Shame to see you say you are struggling with LD'ing yet not open to all methods apparently. 
> 
> Have a good one.



you made your point that you don't want to be on this thread SO WHY THE HELL DO YOU KEEP COMING BACK? and good sir i am open to new methods. at what point did i say nicholas newport doesn't work? i said i don't like how he says he is the only one who has effective methods and that you have to buy a bunch of crap form him. if he said " hi i had trouble with la berges methods, so i have made my versions and they seemed to work for me. I am not saying i am better than them, just trying to bring some different approaches to the methods"  but apperantly thats not the case. he says his methods are the only efficent methods. 

and that good sir is my problem with nick newport. its not that he is trying new methods its that he says he is the only one who has efficient methods. 

i'm sore from mountain biking and not really feeling up to moving around too much tomorrow but i'm sure as hell not wasting my time arguing with you

so go bitch on your own thread

that is all

----------


## EbbTide000

Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow.

It is 5:39 pm here, I fished my work and gave in and took some painmess.

I lay down thinking, "O wish some one would share something with me so I can do MY dream thing.

Then my phone went "ding" and I found this.





> i'm sore from mountain biking and not really feeling up to moving around too much tomorrow but i'm sure as hell not wasting my time arguing with you
> 
> so go bitch on your own thread
> 
> that is all



I don't OBE or LD to well but I hook up in dreams when people share a slice of life (hehehe)

Basically
That's what got me banned off IASD. 

I'D better tread carefully here.

It's not my fault, it just happens.

The name of my thread that the MEAN MODE at IASD obliterated was:

"Not quite remote viewing & Not quite mutual dreaming" 

I opened it during the pdc hoping more folk would join in. But it was wiped out in less than a month cos some guy said I was a cyber-stalked.

Be knew this cos he would be discussing something on another forum and I would post something extremely similar in my thread and if IASD didn't do something about me he was going to make a legal issue about it.

So my lovely "synchronizity" thread was deleted and I can't logon any more.

Do you want to sync-up in dreams and reveries Wllperegoy or maybe not.

----------


## mcwillis

> I made a very excellent point and your come back was childish and senseless.



Yes you did make a very excellent point below.  As a child I wanted to be a cosmologist.  I was studying Einstein's general and special theory of relativity in the school library during lunch break when I was fourteen.  Today I research any method to see if it has any validity in practical application.  If I was a newcomer and not heard of L101 and saw this thread I would have researched his videos and experimented with his methods regardless of the general theme of the thread and come to my own conclusions by attempting to replicate Nick's results.  I did replicate results as there was clearly valid information in his videos.  And the course is jam packed with a lot of very useful practical information that has little discussion here so it was a great idea to have a new thread devoted to discussing these practical applications.





> I've been staying away from this thread the best I can, but it isn't the discussion I have a problem with, its how the very first post started off the discussion. The guy who started it, now absent, was a nuisance to DV. He ran from thread to thread attacking them and started threads attacking good methods, not just lucidology. This thread started off pushing newbies away from very good methods that work very well for many people, Hence, knocking newbies out of many opportunities for lucidity, thus slowing their progress. Had I listened to the things I found here about lucidology when I first found it, as a newbie, I would be far behind from where I am now. I found this thread when I first joined DV and went against its advice eventually finding that it was misinformation. THAT is why I am here. I want to help as many people as I can to learn lucid dreaming, not set them back as this thread would have me had I paid it any attention. Also, lucidology 101 is free and has lots of good information for New lucid dreamers. I'm not trying to sell L102, because it's also easily found for free.
> 
> Guys, I was a newbie. Regardless of whether these methods work for everyone, They work very very well for some newbies and should be discussed in a fair light as well.
> 
> We aren't enemies as I would assume we all have the same goals for the DV community.

----------


## mcwillis

> He says his methods are the only efficent methods. 
> 
> and that good sir is my problem with nick newport. its not that he is trying new methods its that he says he is the only one who has efficient methods.



Where does he say that in the videos?  The last time I spoke to Nick I said I have found techniques that have been far more effective than the ones in Lucidology 101.  He asked me what they were.  I told him and he replied a couple of weeks later thanking me with several exclamation marks, suggesting he found the information to be really enlightening.  That isn't the attitude of a man that says I am the only one that has the only efficient methods is it?

----------


## mcwillis

> Basically that's what got me banned off IASD.



That is a forum specifically setup for the scientific community and probably why.  If I was a member there I would be very careful.





> I'D better tread carefully here.



No, you can speak your mind here.  Unless you were to be horrendously venemous then I think you might have an administrator delivering a serious warning of infraction.  Which I can see you won't  :smiley:

----------


## Arra

I watched the first 2 videos, only because someone on this website recommended them. I'm sad to say I didn't recognize the specific logical flaws pointed out. Something about the claimed mind/body separateness felt wrong, but I didn't stop to think about it. I am dissappointed in myself. I try to be a good critical thinker, maybe I need to try harder. Still, the videos sickened me. There's a way people have of talking or writing when they're trying to sell you something. Even though he only mentioned that what he offered was 'free', his dishonest 'marketing' tone of voice and way of obviously 'advertising' made it obvious there was some hidden cost.

----------


## mcwillis

> I watched the first 2 videos, only because someone on this website recommended them. I'm sad to say I didn't recognize the specific logical flaws pointed out. Something about the claimed mind/body separateness felt wrong, but I didn't stop to think about it. I am dissappointed in myself. I try to be a good critical thinker, maybe I need to try harder. Still, the videos sickened me. There's a way people have of talking or writing when they're trying to sell you something. Even though he only mentioned that what he offered was 'free', his dishonest 'marketing' tone of voice and way of obviously 'advertising' made it obvious there was some hidden cost.



Personally I wouldn't have thought that way.  I would have digested the free information and if it was effective I would have considered the paid course.  Having studied the paid course I understand why it took him four years to put together and why it isn't dishonest marketing.  It is information that is generally only known to a small handful of yogi's in Asia.  It is actually very good value for what you get.

----------


## Dannon Oneironaut

> really, Really, REALLY now i'm not as good as people at lucid dreaming on here but it seems to me that all he is doing is just DDDDDDRRRRRAAAAAGGGGGIIIIINNNNNGGGGG out the technique we call a WILD which was invented by stephen la berge which really gives no justice to him saying " oh all the other techniques didn't work here come try mine!!!" all he is really saying is "don't move too much when you wild and now here come buy this bullshit program i invented and no one else is a good as me"
> 
> that is really the message i got from that video



Stephen LaBerge didn't invent the WILD technique, he just changed the words and the terms so he could claim he invented it. People have been doing it for thousands of years. It is called Yoga Nidra (Yogic Sleep) in India, it is called many things in many cultures. I will compromise and say that Stephen LaBerge _rediscovered_ it and shared with us _his_ understanding and methods, much like this Nick Newport guy does. Stephen LaBerge also sells books where he shares his techniques. I would never buy a book or CD by either Stephen LaBerge or Nick Newport because I don't need to. I also rediscovered how to WILD as a child (that rhymes) and had my own method. I did not know the scientific explanations, but that didn't matter, because I was a child and I knew how to do it. I tried to teach a few people in high school. I didn't ask for money though. But I don't think that it is wrong to make a living sharing your techniques that work, even if the techniques have been around before in different language. Some people benefit from a different point of view. Maybe it is his style of marketing that repels y'all. Maybe you should blame his agent. 

So I heard that he now shares it for free? Good for him. I don't know hardly anything about him, but on the surface his technique seems very similar to mine that I discovered by myself as a child. So, if I hadn't discovered it for myself, his techniques would have probably helped me achieve lucidity faster than other techniques. There needs to be a variety and diversity of techniques for different minds.

----------


## atkins513

> Something about the claimed mind/body separateness felt wrong, but I didn't stop to think about it. I am dissappointed in myself. I try to be a good critical thinker, maybe I need to try harder. Still, the videos sickened me. There's a way people have of talking or writing when they're trying to sell you something. Even though he only mentioned that what he offered was 'free', his dishonest 'marketing' tone of voice and way of obviously 'advertising' made it obvious there was some hidden cost.



Yea I know exactly what you mean, that mind / body separateness really just seems to make no sense at all, when its coming from lucidology, but to hear the wild tutorial below explain it.. almost exactly the same way using the same "confusing made up terms" from lucidology, everyone here at dv seems to love it.. hmm  

Don't get me wrong because I really like Jeffs tutorial as well.. probably because its the same as the mind awake/body asleep video of L101 and I'm pretty sure there was some bashing in the earlier threads of that exact method... yet its loved below in this tutorial. lol

Also, some of those "made up confusing  terms' are used here in Jeffs tutorial. (mind awake/body asleep) (eye-micro-movements) (breathing exercises)  and he even talks about how bodily hormones affect wilding based on day and night, ie serotonin/melatonin. Sounds to me like he's had a lesson in L101. I know some of you will say that these are all regular things in Lucid Dreaming, and they are, but to have them all together in one small tutorial goes to show something in my eyes.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/mind-a...utorial-42271/

Isn't this tutorial awesome everyone? But doesn't L101 suck so bad... Jeff received 34 thank yous for his L101 rewrite.

----------


## Jeff777

I guess noone uses whois anymore.  :/  At any rate, since this thread has been causing somewhat of a stir, I decided to do some digging myself.  But here's a bit of back info first.  Back in 2007 I discovered the saltcube website and decided to buy the dvd.  Matt Jones is the owner of the saltcube website and the narrator in the dvd.  I became curious and wanted more info on this "putting your body to sleep" method so I googled that exact term.  A website came up called smoke and mirrors (created as a sub-directory under the infernowolf site).  The smoke and mirrors page has been removed for some time but the URL in which I copied the site from was put (and has always remained) at the bottom of the Mind Awake, Body Asleep (formerly How to trick your body into falling asleep while keeping your mind awake) post.  I put it there when I created the thread so that people would know I wasn't passing this method and the article off as original creations by me.  Granted I've found much success with the method, I'm very quick to tell people that it's _not my_ method.

I appreciate the support but I definitely have to agree with a lot of points spaceexplorer and others have made in this thread.  If I had the opportunity to go back and offer my own explanation of the method, I probably would.. because if you are coming from a scientific perspective, it can be misleading.  On the flip side though, it's very easy for a LD'ing newbie to understand and "get."  Which is why so many have found success by using it.  Their success, I believe, did not stem from them tricking their bodies into falling asleep.  Their success comes from their belief in that method which creates a discipline in themselves when attempting.  That in turn yields them the success they attribute BACK to the article.  Does the end justify the means?  I guess to answer that you should examine the reasons why you came here in the first place.  To be right.  Or to lucid dream.  

As one progresses in their journey, then they can get into the scientifics involved if they want.. but tbh, noone really cares.  They just _"want it to work."_    Disagree with me? What's more important.. that your bedside lamp works, or you first understand all the specifics involved that make it work?  If you're me, you just want to turn the damn thing on when you need to without needing prequel instructions prior to getting it to work.

The method does not "trick" anything.  It merely cultivates discipline in the person..and discipline is the foundation to deliberate lucid dreaming.

Now, to help the article/method save face a bit, the only problem I see is the word "tricking."  Everything else is fine.  That's the only part of the article I would go back and revise if I could.  But that runaway train took off in 2007.. and google took notice.  Therefore editing it now would be detrimental.  *The mind and body are one.*

Below are some whois results I pulled up, which kind of surprised me.  First is a summary timeline of what happened.  I'm sure Matt Jones/Nicholas Newport is pissed that the same material he's selling on his site for tens of dollars is freely being given here.  And that it's helped thousands.

*Saltcube was created by Matt Jones 2004 -> 

Jeff sees saltcube site and searches for more info online and finds smoke and mirrors site and re-posts the article on DV in late 2007 -> 

Matt Jones, becoming aware that his sites keywords are being weighted for another site decides to reinvent himself and his product under a new guise and with more complex jargon to convince others that the more complex it is, the better it must be, therefore he creates lucidology.com in 2008 ->*





> *Saltcube.com*
> 
> Registrant:
> *Jones, Matt*
>    9364 swaying pine ct
>    miamisburg, OH 45342
>    US
> 
>    Domain Name: SALTCUBE.COM
> ...







> *Lucidology.com*
> 
> Registrant:
> *matt jones*
> 
> 9364 swaying pine ct
> miamisburg, Ohio 45342
> United States
> 
> ...



I'm often asked by LD'ers who do I think of Nicholas Newport (remember, Matt Jones of saltcube is the same guy).  My usual response is similar to what most of the responses in here are like.  I think he's not a bad chap.  Just trying to make some money online.  But he's over-complicating a subject that does not require graphs or unintelligible technical jargon.  That's his gotcha selling point.  If you believe you need it, buy it.  download it.  The purpose as to why you're here or on his site is to LD.  I don't care if you have to fap 30 times before breakfast and drink toilet water at night as an LD'ing routine you swear by.  

Whatever.  Works.  For.  You. (Just don't tell the paramedics Jeff told you to do that)


- Jeff

----------


## nina

I've also decided that this topic is no longer worthy of my attention. 

(At least, not until midterms are over.)

----------


## Kona

> I've also decided that this topic is no longer worthy of my attention. 
> 
> (At least, not until midterms are over.)



i would just stay off it, i'm done arguing here. internet fights are stupid.

----------


## Kona

DV is free 2 and you can get plenty of sucess and get ur questions answered here....... just sayin

----------


## mcwillis

Well if you think Nick Newport is a slimey salesman just in it for the money then you really should take a look at this concerning Stephen LaBerge.

$522? LaBerge you filthy capitalist!

----------


## atkins513

Dammit Mcwillis. The thread was dying. Leave it be lol.

----------


## Raspberry

:Oh noes:  LET IT DIE A NATURAL DEATH MCWILLIS!!!  :Oh noes: 

 :wink2:

----------


## mcwillis

I thought that post about LaBerge would be the final nail in the coffin to shut people up actually.

----------


## Raspberry

I was joking  :wink2:  The thread was helpful  ::D:

----------


## atkins513

> I guess noone uses whois anymore.  :/  At any rate, since this thread has been causing somewhat of a stir, I decided to do some digging myself.  But here's a bit of back info first.  Back in 2007 I discovered the saltcube website and decided to buy the dvd.  Matt Jones is the owner of the saltcube website and the narrator in the dvd.  I became curious and wanted more info on this "putting your body to sleep" method so I googled that exact term.  A website came up called smoke and mirrors (created as a sub-directory under the infernowolf site).  The smoke and mirrors page has been removed for some time but the URL in which I copied the site from was put (and has always remained) at the bottom of the Mind Awake, Body Asleep (formerly How to trick your body into falling asleep while keeping your mind awake) post.  I put it there when I created the thread so that people would know I wasn't passing this method and the article off as original creations by me.  Granted I've found much success with the method, I'm very quick to tell people that it's _not my_ method.
> 
> I appreciate the support but I definitely have to agree with a lot of points spaceexplorer and others have made in this thread.  If I had the opportunity to go back and offer my own explanation of the method, I probably would.. because if you are coming from a scientific perspective, it can be misleading.  On the flip side though, it's very easy for a LD'ing newbie to understand and "get."  Which is why so many have found success by using it.  Their success, I believe, did not stem from them tricking their bodies into falling asleep.  Their success comes from their belief in that method which creates a discipline in themselves when attempting.  That in turn yields them the success they attribute BACK to the article.  Does the end justify the means?  I guess to answer that you should examine the reasons why you came here in the first place.  To be right.  Or to lucid dream.  
> 
> As one progresses in their journey, then they can get into the scientifics involved if they want.. but tbh, noone really cares.  They just _"want it to work."_    Disagree with me? What's more important.. that your bedside lamp works, or you first understand all the specifics involved that make it work?  If you're me, you just want to turn the damn thing on when you need to without needing prequel instructions prior to getting it to work.
> 
> The method does not "trick" anything.  It merely cultivates discipline in the person..and discipline is the foundation to deliberate lucid dreaming.
> 
> Now, to help the article/method save face a bit, the only problem I see is the word "tricking."  Everything else is fine.  That's the only part of the article I would go back and revise if I could.  But that runaway train took off in 2007.. and google took notice.  Therefore editing it now would be detrimental.  *The mind and body are one.*
> ...









> Well if you think Nick Newport is a slimey salesman just in it for the money then you really should take a look at this concerning Stephen LaBerge.
> 
> $522? LaBerge you filthy capitalist!



Between those 2 quotes, Your right, this thread is probably dead. Now dont post Shhhhh

Also, there is another (fair) discussion about this stuff here.. if you feel you would like to join  :smiley:  Below  :smiley: 

*http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucido...e-here-109585/*

----------


## LostOnTrains

Bumping with "science"
 :Picard face palm:   :Picard face palm:   :Picard face palm: 
What is this I don't even

----------


## Mzzkc

The biggest difference between Dr. LaBerge and Mr. Newport remains, quite frankly, one is certified as an expert on the subject, while the academic credentials of the other are non-existent.

It's like comparing a pharmacist to a drug dealer.

----------


## atkins513

> Bumping with "science"
>   
> What is this I don't even



Seriously? This is what frustrates me, Are you really telling me that makes no sense to you? Are you really telling me this is so far above your head that you cannot understand it? Every one of the graphs make sense for anyone of average intelligence.. This is what frustrates me. If you really cant get this, then the problem is not with the illustrations. Work with me.

Let me explain and try to follow the graph. There is a blue line that symbolizes the difference between being awake and asleep. Above the line means awake while below that line means asleep. This line also represents the time frame in which the actions are happening. So as the graph clearly illustrates, laying still with no movement (it even says no movement really big so you can see), the actions of the body (shown in red) show that the body will move into a sleep state until the beep (explained verbally) brings it back into the awake state each time. Then the body falls back into the sleep state, until the beep, which brings it back to the awake state. Now where it says SP is very likely here, is because when going from awake to asleep rapidly in a short time, the body becomes more and more resistant to waking, yet when you hear the beep the mind still wakes. So what you have at the end is: Body Asleep In SP + Mind Awake and Conscious = Waking Sleep Paralysis. Now, Sleep Paralysis is when the body is asleep, which we normally try to get into through wilding, a long and unyielding process in many cases. What this technique does is put you into SP with very little effort, and it works very very well. 


Maybe we should contact Nicholas Newport and see if he can redesign his illustrations for monkeys and those with equal mental capacity. This bs is really frustrating me as you can tell. It sounds like to me it really is about many of your levels of education in the matter of lucid dreaming that is holding you back when you can't understand a simple graph.

Watch the video's again, listen to the explanation at the same time, You may get it.

*Anyone with Average Intelligence and non biased opinion interested in discussing lucid dreaming methods known to be successful and discussion in great detail of those methods, whether they work or do not work, Follow the link below. Monkeys, and those of equal intelligence need not bother, infact, pretend the link doesn't exist* 

http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucidology-101-nicholas-newport-entire-video-course-here-109585/


*Not to mention you are beating  a dead horse. As Jeff cleared up earlier, the methods work, regardless of what you think about the creator.*

----------


## Mzzkc

Monkeys are pretty smart, yo.

----------


## LostOnTrains

> Seriously? This is what frustrates me, Are you really telling me that makes no sense to you? Are you really telling me this is so far above your head that you cannot understand it? Every one of the graphs make sense for anyone of average intelligence.. This is what frustrates me. If you really cant get this, then the problem is not with the illustrations. Work with me.
> 
> (tl;dr)
> 
> Maybe we should contact Nicholas Newport and see if he can redesign his illustrations for monkeys and those with equal mental capacity. This bs is really frustrating me as you can tell. It sounds like to me it really is about many of your levels of education in the matter of lucid dreaming that is holding you back when you can't understand a simple graph.
> 
> Watch the video's again, listen to the explanation at the same time, You may get it.
> 
> *Anyone with Average Intelligence and unbiased opinion interested in discussing lucid dreaming methods known to be successful and discussion in great detail of those methods, whether they work or do not work, Follow the link below. Monkeys, and those of equal intelligence need not bother, infact, pretend the link doesn't exist* 
> ...



Ah, so you're saying it works like this?

----------


## saltyseedog

lol. what he is saying is you wake up inbetween dreams about every hour in the night whether you are concious of it or not. And if you find yourself waking up inbetween dreams don't move at all and you can slip into sleep paralysis easily.

----------


## LostOnTrains

> lol. what he is saying is you wake up inbetween dreams about every hour in the night whether you are concious of it or not. And if you find yourself waking up inbetween dreams don't move at all and you can slip into sleep paralysis easily.



I know, I'm just joking. My point was that this is a very simple idea (look, you just summed it up very easily in 2 short sentences). In fact, you explained it BETTER than the graph. 
The time line, how long is that? 1 second? 8 days? Its just 'time'. It means nothing. And the Asleep/awake line. So is the top of the chart being fully awake and the bottom being fully alseep? So the wiggly red line represents the body wavering somewhere midway being awake and asleep? Also there is an arrow pointing to a point at the bottom of the chart saying 'awake' but really this far down the 'sleep' axis, the body should be asleep. So am I now supposed to be asleep and awake at the same time here? Or maybe the 'awake' in this arrow really means 'wake up'. If this is the case, then it confuses things because the asleep/awake axis also has an 'awake'. So I am supposed to attribute a different meaning to the word 'awake' as it is used at different points in the graph?

What I am saying is the graph and the related videos make a simple idea overcomplicated.

----------


## Maria92

If you're paying for lucid dreaming, you're doing it wrong.

----------


## atkins513

> I know, I'm just joking. My point was that this is a very simple idea (look, you just summed it up very easily in 2 short sentences). In fact, you explained it BETTER than the graph. 
> The time line, how long is that? 1 second? 8 days? Its just 'time'. It means nothing. And the Asleep/awake line. So is the top of the chart being fully awake and the bottom being fully alseep? So the wiggly red line represents the body wavering somewhere midway being awake and asleep? Also there is an arrow pointing to a point at the bottom of the chart saying 'awake' but really this far down the 'sleep' axis, the body should be asleep. So am I now supposed to be asleep and awake at the same time here? Or maybe the 'awake' in this arrow really means 'wake up'. If this is the case, then it confuses things because the asleep/awake axis also has an 'awake'. So I am supposed to attribute a different meaning to the word 'awake' as it is used at different points in the graph?
> 
> What I am saying is the graph and the related videos make a simple idea overcomplicated.




Apparently neither one of you have watched the video, because you are both 100 percent completely ass backwards wrong.
This graph goes along to explain how to use a very specific wilding technique that does not just happen randomly at night, but in fact is planned and
done in the early morning hours as WBTB. The graph goes along to explain very specific instructions for this technique. 

Watch the video and you may understand, as far as Lostontrains, you've successfully proven yourself as an idiot.
THE ENTIRE FIRST COURSE IS FREE. LET ME EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU, FREE MEANS IT DOES NOT COST ANYTHING. THE ENTIRE SECOND COURSE CAN EASILY BE FOUND FOR FREE ONLINE AS WELL. ALL GREAT METHODS FOR INDUCING LUCID DREAMS.

Now, JEFF, wrote a tutorial based on the methods, and it showed great great success for many people, proving the methods work. 
WHO CARES ABOUT NICHOLAS NEWPORT OR LUCIDOLOGY, JUST USE THE METHODS AND GET LUCID!!!!

YOU GUYS ARE BASHING THESE METHODS and if you successfully convince people not to try them, you personally are responsible for screwing people out of having lucid dreams and are 100 percent at fault if they miss out on LDs that they could have had using these methods.. give it a rest for real.. your just hurting the community.


*One last thing.* 

The methods work, the methods work, the methods work, the methods work
who cares about the author, who cares about the author, who cares about the author
The videos are all free online, both series, the videos are all free online, both series
you are screwing people out of lucid dreaming, you are screwing people out of lucid dreaming, 
By continuing bashing working methods because of the author you are screwing people out of ld
By continuing bashing working methods because of the author you are screwing people out of ld

----------


## saltyseedog

personally I think all the videos make the idea of the WILD a little to complicated. to much to think about when you are attempting WILD.

----------


## Maria92

> Apparently neither one of you have watched the video, because you are both 100 percent completely ass backwards wrong.
> This graph goes along to explain how to use a very specific wilding technique that does not just happen randomly at night, but in fact is planned and
> done in the early morning hours as WBTB. The graph goes along to explain very specific instructions for this technique.



Imma sum up how to do WILD with WBTB right here. Now, you have a bunch of options, so pay attention:
Option one: Read Mzzkc's WILD guide, or any of the other great WILD guides. 
Option two: Read the site WILD guide
Option three: read below
 1. sleep about 6 hours
 2. wake up
 3. do a WILD. Durr hurr hurr durrrrrrrr. Anyone that requires a video and graphs to explain this is pants-on-head retarded. 
Option four: any or all of the above





> THE ENTIRE SECOND COURSE CAN EASILY BE *FOUND* FOR FREE ONLINE AS WELL.



Illegally? Cuz you know, a lot of people aren't willing to cross that line. 





> Now, JEFF, wrote a tutorial based on the methods, and it showed great great success for many people, proving the methods work.



I don't think most people are arguing that they don't work...I think they're mostly arguing that this dude is making things way overcomplicated, and _expecting compensation for free public knowledge._ 





> WHO CARES ABOUT NICHOLAS NEWPORT OR LUCIDOLOGY, JUST USE THE METHODS AND GET LUCID!!!!



I should probably point out that his methods are far from all-encompassing. They leave much to be desired, and while they may _work,_ they may not be the most efficient method. 





> YOU GUYS ARE BASHING THESE METHODS and if you successfully convince people not to try them, you personally are responsible for screwing people out of having lucid dreams and are 100 percent at fault if they miss out on LDs that they could have had using these methods.. give it a rest for real.. your just hurting the community.



We're bashing the author. Or at least I am. This man has no business doing what he is. All he's doing is taking _what can already be found for free_, rebundling it under the guise of expertise, and charging money for it. Oh yeah, and making it much more complex than it has to be. He is inefficient and, quite frankly, a waste of time. His "science" seldom is, and while the techniques may work in and of themselves, there is nothing special about them, and at the end of the day, he is still spreading misinformation. Why spend two minutes of your life with this joke, when you could spend those two same minutes being far more productive? 





> The methods work, the methods work, the methods work, the methods work



An octagonal wheel works...but it doesn't mean it works well. 





> who cares about the author, who cares about the author, who cares about the author



This is like hiring a serial killer for a teacher, but not caring so long as they do their job and don't accidentally fatally stab any students. :/





> The videos are all free online, both series, the videos are all free online, both series



Define "free." Are they "free" with the author's consent, or "free" in the same way that Inception can be "free" if you know where to look?  ::?: 





> you are screwing people out of lucid dreaming, you are screwing people out of lucid dreaming,



No, we're trying to promote lucid dreaming...and the well-being of your wallet. 





> By continuing bashing working methods because of the author you are screwing people out of ld



Bashing the author and his teaching techniques, not his core methods. Also, his use of pseudoscience to try and justify his methods, which is the spread of misinformation at its finest. 

If you seriously can't be troubled to read a basic tutorial, and honestly need the pretty videos, fun jargon, and fancy graphs, then be my guest. But this man's methods are not the best. The core techniques work...but you could learn about those within ten minutes using the site tuts. I'll say it again: _There is nothing special about this man's methods._

----------


## atkins513

Mario, I appreciate your post. You are right about many things, but not all the methods can be found on this site, unless they refer to L101, and many of the methods that cant be found on this site frankly rock lol.. other than that, I give up.. I just want to help the community as a whole and for them to be kept open to methods that work.. I have to quit posting in this thread because the idiocy in some posts, (not yours), is amazing lol

----------


## mcwillis

> The biggest difference between Dr. LaBerge and Mr. Newport remains, quite frankly, one is certified as an expert on the subject, while the academic credentials of the other are non-existent.
> 
> It's like comparing a pharmacist to a drug dealer.



1 - Both of them are experts.  Look in a dictionary.

2 - A pharamacist is a drug dealer.  Look in a dictionary.

And LaBerge is a filthy capitalist.  I agree with the poll of 38 to 0.

----------


## Mzzkc

Dude, you don't bother to understand the meaning and implications of my post, and then start telling me to look in a dictionary? That's pretty sad.

I guess I'll spell it out for you in simple speech, then:

- LaBerge has a doctorate in the study of lucid dreaming.

- Newport probably doesn't even have a bachelor's.

- Pharmacists sell prescription medication and the like, which is all backed (hopefully) by years of research and development.

- Drug dealers, the kind you'd find at a street corner somewhere, generally have enough knowledge to sell their products effectively, but buyer beware.

- If you're going to compare Newport and LaBerge based on their capitalist ventures, make sure you're ready to do a full comparison.

----------


## Maria92

> 2 - A pharamacist is a drug dealer.  Look in a dictionary.



Pharmacist in training here. I can tell you right now that a pharmacist that works in a hospital, behind a counter, in R&D, or wherever, is absolutely, positively, *not anything like* your off-the-street drug dealer. The Pharm.D. degree is a minimum 6 years of intense schooling. We are responsible for the health, well-being, and *very lives* of our customers. It is not a job to be taken lightly.

----------


## LostOnTrains

> Watch the video and you may understand, as far as Lostontrains, you've successfully proven yourself as an idiot.



Mate, I don't really know what I've said to upset you. So far all I've done is criticise the videos, but you are taking it all personally and getting so butthurt by it all that now you are resorting to personal insults.
This is a discussion board. It means we are allowed to provide arguments and counter-arguments to anyone's opinion. The key is to not take is personally when somebody doesn't agree with you.

It is pretty obvious what you are doing here, you tried to stop people posting here but that didn't work so now you are trolling with dumb insults trying to get people annoyed so that this thread decends into a flame-war and gets locked.

And you keep saying that newbs would read this thread and not be able to form their own unbiased opinions. Well that should be kinda insulting to them don't you think? I'm pretty sure they can make their own mind up despite this thread or any other. The opinion of yours that you need to ''save the newbs from these damaging threads'' is very patronizing.

I think you need to re-read the forum rules and guidelines before posting. Specifically the area regarding. _Be respectful and tolerant of other users._
I said earlier not to take it all so personally, so I don't see why you are being so rude.

This is a heated and passionate discussion. This thread and your thread can co-exist! We can live in a tolerant and progressive society if we all just learn to get along and respect each other!
Peace and love, brother.

----------


## saltyseedog

everybody thinks they're right

----------


## Kona

> Ah, so you're saying it works like this?



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh man that just brightened up my dad lolololololololololol

----------


## Mzzkc

> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh man that just brightened up my dad lolololololololololol



You read these forums with your father present?

----------


## Maria92

> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh man that just brightened up my dad lolololololololololol

----------


## Kona

> 



i meant day not dad, spelling errors happen people

----------


## Maria92

> i meant day not dad, spelling errors happen people



Yes...and the better placed they are, the more likely we are to make fun of them.  ::tongue::

----------


## Kona

hahaha yeah....... that was a funny pic hahahaha

----------


## Jeff777

> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh man that just brightened up my dad lolololololololololol



Parental monitoring of online activity?  Hmm.. I suggest he outsources the job to netnanny if he's worried about your online usage.  Oh.. Hi WLLPEREGOY's dad.  ^-^

----------


## dakotahnok

*





 Originally Posted by atkins513


Hey Thanks for posting. WE ARE PICKING UP THIS DISCUSSION AT THE LINK BELOW Please copy and paste your message into that forum. 

http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/lucidology-101-nicholas-newport-entire-video-course-here-109585/



First off it's ridiculous that your trying to hijack this thread. If I was the OP I would be very pissed. 

Second, what's your obsession with this guy? It seems that your one of the few people that like him. So maybe you should keep it to yourself.*

----------


## Kona

> Parental monitoring of online activity?  Hmm.. I suggest he outsources the job to netnanny if he's worried about your online usage.  Oh.. Hi WLLPEREGOY's dad.  ^-^



read the post above, my god

----------


## dakotahnok

*





 Originally Posted by WLLPEREGOY


read the post above, my god



Oh people are just messing with you... Take it as being part of the family. 

*

----------


## Kona

> Oh people are just messing with you... Take it as being part of the family.




i know................................... potatoes and a moose

----------


## Raspberry

POTATOES  ::D:

----------


## Kona

yeah............. potatoes are good

----------


## Kona

> If you're paying for lucid dreaming, you're doing it wrong.





UR DOIN IT WRONG!!!

Sorry couldn't help myself lol

----------


## exoapollo

I think the worst part is that he calls all other guides out there 'weak and ineffective'.

----------


## Emecom

Ha ha ha I just read all 12 pages of this thread (actually mostly skimmed it, reading the important things) and I just have to say this it is fucking hilarious!!! I mean come on Atkins you try to steal the thread and move it to one of your own (why? because you want to have a big successful thread?) then when people make fun of you and get mad that you want to move the thread you whine and say that your going to ignore this thread. But nope you come back over and over again to basically say the same thing every time. Then the thread slowed down and almost stopped, but you kept posting about how it was slowing down, which in turn probably made it more popular again. Anyways, if you have a problem with the thread just stop visiting it.

----------


## EbbTide000

Hehehe

Last night between 4 and 7pm I did my first year 12 lesson on Philosophy at an adult campus. It was an overview of the whole year course. Josh (the young, hip teacher) talked about argument and the penny slowly started to drop (hehehe)

I bet folk like Aquanina and other very mean and arguementative folk are practicing "Philosophical Argument" (hahaha). 

Wellllll

WATCH-OUT

Because this year I'M going to learn how to ARGUE (hehehe)

Then I'll be no more Mrs Whimpy Nice gal (hahaha) :Cheeky: 

You guy'S say so much UNINFORMED crap about Nick and Lucidology 101 but so far I just whimp-out and let it pass. Now I think some of you are doing it on purpose cos you want to practice your Philosophical Argument Skills. 

You are baiting us"Nick-fans". 

Soon as I get my Philosophical argument shit together I'LL TAKE YOU ON. ::twisted::

----------


## Bonzaii

> Hehehe
> 
> Last night between 4 and 7pm I did my first year 12 lesson on Philosophy at an adult campus. It was an overview of the whole year course. Josh (the young, hip teacher) talked about argument and the penny slowly started to drop (hehehe)
> 
> I bet folk like Aquanina and other very mean and arguementative folk are practicing "Philosophical Argument" (hahaha). 
> 
> Wellllll
> 
> WATCH-OUT
> ...



I hereby nominate this as the funniest post I think I've ever seen on DV.  Ever.  Does anyone else feel the same way?

----------


## EbbTide000

Argument Clinic 

YouTube - Argument Clinic
(6:07) over a million views so far.

----------


## LostOnTrains

> I bet folk like Aquanina and other very mean and arguementative folk are practicing "Philosophical Argument" (hahaha). 
> 
> You are baiting us"Nick-fans". 
> 
> Soon as I get my Philosophical argument shit together I'LL TAKE YOU ON.



Thats just the thing. Nobody is being mean, we are just talking about it in a negative or positive way, and there are people that disagree with both sides of the argument.
In fact, the only people being 'mean' and insulting are the "Nick-fans" (well, 1 of them anyway)
Just remember, nobody has insulted you for liking Lucidology so try not to take it personally but by all means come back with some counter arguments. I have no problem being proven wrong especially if its something that helps me become lucid  :smiley:

----------


## nina

> I bet folk like Aquanina and other very mean and arguementative folk are practicing "Philosophical Argument" (hahaha).



The bizarre thing is that you're talking about me as if I'm not here, and yet I'm obviously going to read this thread. Am I really so mean and argumentative? Did I hurt your feelings?  :Sad:

----------


## Raspberry

> Hehehe
> 
> Last night between 4 and 7pm I did my first year 12 lesson on Philosophy at an adult campus. It was an overview of the whole year course. Josh (the young, hip teacher) talked about argument and the penny slowly started to drop (hehehe)
> 
> I bet folk like Aquanina and other very mean and arguementative folk are practicing "Philosophical Argument" (hahaha). 
> 
> Wellllll
> 
> WATCH-OUT
> ...



You could take anyone on right now. Debating skills take practice. I'm not so good myself, but if you have a point to make you should make it. We don't need to "watch out" because as long as you make a valid point to argue what people are saying in this thread then people people will consider it. It doesn't mean that those people won't find something to use to debate against it... But what have you got to lose? Really?

And people here are not "being mean". Aquanina is not mean for giving her opinions on this subject. Debating can get pretty heated sometimes, but it's for a reason, not to make people feel shit. Some are more blunt than others.

Feel free to "take us on"...

----------


## Alric

When you google his name, this thread comes up in the second spot. Which I find kind of interesting. I look at some of the videos and I can see why people think he is a joke. The basic information seems okay for the most part, but a few of the things he says is really out there, and make no sense.

----------


## EbbTide000

Alric

Be specific,

You wrote:

***The basic information seems okay for the most part, but a few of the things he says is really out there, and make no sense.***


Exactly what do you consider "really out there, and make no sense."

Quote the bits from his 101 YouTube's that you consider "really out there and make no sense".

I have transcribed the first 5 or 6 YouTube video's onto the other thread. So, highlight, copy and paste what you don't like so I can understand.

----------


## Alric

The first was trying to diagnosis sleep apnea while in sleep paralysis. I am not sure if that is even possible, but even if it was people shouldn't be trying to diagnosis things in that way, and it is probably just going to scare people more than anything.

Some of the mind body independence stuff, which was pointed out earlier in the thread also make no sense. I think he was just trying to simplify it for people, but it does come out sounding a bit silly. Mostly that isn't a big deal however, I don't know what he is talking about when he is explaining how the body sends extreme pain to test if you are awake or not. He mentions it a few times, about the extreme pain in sleep paralysis. I am not sure what he is doing but no one should be experiencing "extreme" pain during any of the techniques. 

I also don't know what he is talking about with the jaw stuff. I suppose some people may have problems, like people who constantly grind their teeth and stuff. However for most people, I think applying pressure to your jaw and tugging on it really hard and stuff is a bit over doing it for us. I am not even sure if it is  safe to tell a person to stick their fingers in their mouth and tug their jaw down as hard as possible. He basically said it was impossible to hurt yourself so do it as hard as possible. Maybe you can tell me if that is actually true or not?

----------


## EbbTide000

Thank you Alric

You have given me several things to work on. I got study and my cleaning chores to do so it might be a while before I reply.

Thanx again for spelling-out where you feel Nick lost-the-plot a bit.

And giving me something to work with.

Respectively yours

DebraJane

(It is 10:40 am here in Adelaide, South Australia)

----------


## saltyseedog

> You could take anyone on right now. Debating skills take practice. I'm not so good myself, but if you have a point to make you should make it. We don't need to "watch out" because as long as you make a valid point to argue what people are saying in this thread then people people will consider it. It doesn't mean that those people won't find something to use to debate against it... But what have you got to lose? Really?
> 
> And people here are not "being mean". Aquanina is not mean for giving her opinions on this subject. Debating can get pretty heated sometimes, but it's for a reason, not to make people feel shit. Some are more blunt than others.
> 
> Feel free to "take us on"...



Trust me, sometimes it does make people feel shit. When five or six people shoot someone down they do feel shitty.

----------


## Alric

Aside from the few silly things he does talk about though, I would suspect most of the stuff should work to some degree or other. Since it is basically the same stuff here on the forums, I don't see any controversy on the basic stuff he is saying. Each person is different so if someone understands it better by looking at videos then they should go for it.

----------


## EbbTide000

Hi Alric





> Aside from the few silly things he does talk about though, I would suspect most of the stuff should work to some degree or other. Since it is basically the same stuff here on the forums, I don't see any controversy on the basic stuff he is saying. Each person is different so if someone understands it better by looking at videos then they should go for it.



It is on the whole probable that we continually dream, but that consciousness makes  such a noise that we do not hear it. Carl Jung 

I found this quote by Carl Jung  on Bobbie Ann Pimm's site,  January 5th, 2011, under  Carl Jung, QuotesTags: Jung, Quotes

It is true for me, I think.

Nothing seems to work for me, lucid dreaming wise. I think there are different "spiecie's" of dreamers. 

You "lucid dreaming" spiecies make so much noise as to make folk like me feel that your way of dreaming is the best way and the rest of "us" who can't do it, are just "dumb losers".

Nothing-much happens for me until folks start focusing-together on one thing. But when that starts happening ... WOW ... I start noticing both dream and waking-life coincidences (synchronizities).

I noticed this at first, on Nick's Saltcube site. When Nick Newport was known as Matt Jones, back in 2005 he helped run 35 consecutive Remote Viewing targets. These were physical objects that he put in a cardboard box and saltcubers aimed at getting lucid or else go OBE and visit the box to pick-up impression of the object in the box.

I wasnt on line back then. I didn't come on line until Saturday 1st of March 2008.

After Nick's 35, EyeOneBlack ran 47 consecutive Remote Viewing Labs. He put his physical objects in a drawing of a six pointed star.

A friend gave me the link to saltcube on the 27th of July 2008 after I complained to her that I was miserable, cos our Psi-Dreams yahoogroups site had gone dead.

Eye was on his 30th Target.

It was amazing to watch as participants dreamed each others dreams as they tried to focus on "What's in EyeOneBlack's Star.

That was real off-the-scale stuff.

And, sadly, it's the only stuff that works for me.

I find trying to LD and OBE lonely and boring.

----------


## Jeff777

> Hi Alric
> 
> 
> 
> “It is on the whole probable that we continually dream, but that consciousness makes  such a noise that we do not hear it.” Carl Jung 
> 
> I found this quote by Carl Jung  on Bobbie Ann Pimm's site,  January 5th, 2011, under  Carl Jung, QuotesTags: Jung, Quotes
> 
> It is true for me, I think.
> ...



..What?

----------


## Jeff777

> The bizarre thing is that you're talking about me as if I'm not here, and yet I'm obviously going to read this thread. Am I really so mean and argumentative? Did I hurt your feelings?



I don't think you're mean.  Just honest and blunt.  Hahaha.

----------


## Raspberry

Jeff, I agree with you on both posts.

DebraJane, I don't mean to offend you, but I don't understand half the things you go on about in your posts.

----------


## EbbTide000

Jeff and Raspberry

I don't want to just endlessly talk, (argue and theorize). What we think is true today, about dreaming, will seem quaint and will ne giggled at, 100 years from now.

Folks everywhere (in my opinion) seem reluctant too ... 

Well I don't even know what to call it. Honestly, I don't think there are words or concepts or even metaphors for it YET.

BUT

IT happens and IT is common.

But without the words to share IT, it stays practically invisible.

IT is what happens when folk gently focus on something SIMPLE with a giggley, happy, excitement as they drop-off to sleep. 

The light-hearted, fun and friendly attitude is essential, for this to work, as the participants drop-off to sleep. (in my opinion).

I only got the first two installments of the amazing 103. I begged Nick not to send me any more 103 cos I don't want to just think, think, think about it or JUST talk, talk, talk about it (103).

I want to do the first two installments of 103.

Every time some one starts sharing with me I end up going to sleep with that gentle and light-hearted focus and connecting in dream-space with the one who talked on line with me.

So

I set up the Mandala and the beach between the Henley Beach Jetty and the Grange Beach Jetty, NEAR WHERE I LIVE. 

I did this cos I am sure the "hooking-up" with real-life people, on the net, IN DREAMS, really, really happens.

It can be verified.

That is what the Mandala and the beach is ALL ABOUT.

VERIFICATION.

----------


## iFatal

I love how this thread just turned into a fun house. It used to be about Newports stuff but now its about potatoes and other stuff.

I have watches his videos and I kinda liked them. I don't like how he is trying to sell his lucid dream stuff but his videos aren't that bad.

----------


## EbbTide000

Thanx iFatal for your quick reply.

I have four log-ins at Nick saltcube, (ultravioletfrog, Hermit, RVevstasy and finally just DebraJane,my real name. A few days ago I went to open a fifth cos my other 4 image galleries have tooooo many photos in them.

When I went to open a new log-ins, called,mdrv (mutual dreamimg remote viewer), I got the message to purchase 102 and log-ins.

Well, I thought, since I really, really want a fresh photo gallery for my new thread called, "New Synchronicity Game" $35 seems a fair price, and I could always use a second 102. So I paid and opened my very important thread as mdrv.

Now I've forgotten my password for mdrv (ha!).


Anyway

101 is free

And

102 is blinking dirt cheap, $35.





> I love how this thread just turned into a fun house. It used to be about Newports stuff but now its about potatoes and other stuff.
> 
> I have watches his videos and I kinda liked them. I don't like how he is trying to sell his lucid dream stuff but his videos aren't that bad.

----------


## iFatal

Has anyone here looked at the lucidology 102?

If so then what is your review.

----------


## Maria92

Let me state this again. $35 for a heap of information _that is already freely available and on this very site_. $35 for _basic lucid dreaming tutorials_.

What utter tripe.

----------


## nina

Newport must love people like you...what would he do without ya.

----------


## iFatal

It's not like i'm going to actually buy his stuff I just wanted to see some of the reviews people gave it. Even if they were good I still wouldn't buy his lucidology 102. I already know everything he teaches in his videos.

----------


## EbbTide000

> What a sucker. Newport must love people like you...what would he do without ya.



Aquanina 

Just for the record.

The above 

is

Harsh and Discouraging

And

Yes

It did, "Hurt my feelings"

----------


## Maria92

> Aquanina 
> 
> Just for the record.
> 
> The above 
> 
> is
> 
> Harsh and Discouraging
> ...



1. Welcome to the internet. We aren't always perfectly prim and proper here. And we aren't gonna change that. 
2. Reading through this made me want to gouge my eyes out.

----------


## EbbTide000

Mario92

Actually, Mario92, that was between Aqunina and me, so please don't hurt your self on our account.

----------


## saltyseedog

It hurt my feelings too

----------


## nina

:Picard face palm:

----------


## mcwillis

> Let me state this again. $35 for a heap of information _that is already freely available and on this very site_. $35 for _basic lucid dreaming tutorials_.
> 
> What utter tripe.



That is utter tripe.

Where on this board is there directions for the shifted blackboard technique?

Where on this board is there directions for the computer menu visualisation technique?

Where on this board is there directions for the memory impression stabilisation technique?

Where on this board is the technique for quick switch OBE's?

Four years of research and practice went into honeing those techniques and $35 is extremely good value for money for them.

----------


## Maria92

> That is utter tripe.
> 
> Where on this board is there directions for the shifted blackboard technique?
> 
> Where on this board is there directions for the computer menu visualisation technique?
> 
> Where on this board is there directions for the memory impression stabilisation technique?
> 
> Where on this board is the technique for quick switch OBE's?
> ...



You know, these certainly sound like they're still funded on the same building blocks as all other methods, just with very specific spins. Can you show me that, say, visualizing a computer menu is any more effective than visualizing _anything else_, per either Naiya's visual MILD, or the V-WILD (both of which are available here)? Yes, there are hundreds of induction techniques. But no matter how many you know, it all comes down to hard work and effort. You will not find a magic bullet in this man's methods. I would like to point out that there are other free LD sites, and they also offer some specific tuts...like Caffeine Withdrawal. I know a couple people who use it and like it, but they were rather proficient lucid dreamers to begin with, and got there from hard work and effort. They also weren't afraid to experiment on their own. You need only look at the front page of this site to glimpse the hidden ingenuity in this community. People who have only had a few LD's coming up with new ways to fly or exercise other forms of dream control, or else taking the basic methods and refining them into something specific that works for them. 

So if you think a few new induction techniques are gonna help, then by all means, go ahead and buy them. But it is my opinion that you're wasting your money.

----------


## nina

Completely agree...I also think that a lot of induction methods work by a sort of placebo effect. Meaning that it is not so much the effectiveness of the method but your expectation that it is going to work. This has been the case for me many many times with many many induction techniques that I have tried. Almost EVEY technique works for me the first time I try it. Maybe even the first few times. Then it stops working...or at least becomes less effective, and I return to my more natural LDing methods. This has been going on with me for years. So I would never pay for a new induction technique, when I know that it's really all in my head whether or not something is going to work. The reason you have success with NN'ss methods is because you pay money, and you expect them to work, so they do. That might be enough for someone to want to buy his methods...but as Mario says, it all comes down to the same basic principles of LDing.

----------


## Xaqaria

I responded to this thread awhile back defending the techniques but have since discovered that my limited success was most likely due to suggestion/placebo. Since then I have found it to be unreliable at best, inneffective at worst.

----------


## Jeff777

Nick Newport is smart, I'll give him that.  He's hustling people into thinking that they need him and his material to successfully master the art of lucid dreaming.  He's a modern day Bill Gates.  Remember how Bill Gates (college Bill), hustled his way into Steve Jobs' pants by thoroughly convincing him that his programs were vulnerable without Microsoft's help?  

And we all know what came out of that.



Bill Gates took Steve Jobs' products, put a Microsoft tag on it and sold it to the public before Apple could.

Nick Newport/Matt Jones has taken freely offered information, rehashed it in his own terminology and sell it to people as complex systematic jargon proven to work for newbies.



Ethical?  dubious.  I don't disagree with it though.  My major is business administration so I'm learning how to sweet talk money out of consumers pants like Newport is doing.  Matt's found a way to reinvent himself under the guise of Nick "New"port and rehash a 2nd DVD that he pretty much sold for 20 bucks as Matt Jones years earlier which was just rehashed material that's being freely offered online.  

I don't mean to offend anyone, but there's a  born every minute.  And it's people like Bill Gates, Nick Newport and countless others who have sweet tooths that your money satisfies.

----------


## Raspberry

Oh I LOVE the way that was put!  :Shades wink:

----------


## Kona

> Completely agree...I also think that a lot of induction methods work by a sort of placebo effect. Meaning that it is not so much the effectiveness of the method but your expectation that it is going to work. This has been the case for me many many times with many many induction techniques that I have tried. Almost EVEY technique works for me the first time I try it. Maybe even the first few times. Then it stops working...or at least becomes less effective, and I return to my more natural LDing methods. This has been going on with me for years. So I would never pay for a new induction technique, when I know that it's really all in my head whether or not something is going to work. The reason you have success with NN'ss methods is because you pay money, and you expect them to work, so they do. That might be enough for someone to want to buy his methods...but as Mario says, it all comes down to the same basic principles of LDing.



completely true!!!!!!!!! i bought EWLD and have had more lucids than ever because i bought it and i pretty much expect it to work so it will.

and mcwillis, let me ask you something.



does nicholas newport offer a book chalk full of information on OBEs and Lucid Dreaming for only $5? No

did nicholas newport go to stanford? i think not

did nicholas newport get a P.H.D in  Psychophysiology? i think not


Call me stupid but i would much rather buy a book that is only $5 new and even cheaper used rather than pay $35 for techniques from a guy who has only had 4 years of experience

plus most of a la berge's methods are on DV FOR FREE!!! and nobody here is trying to get me to buy a bunch of videos for $35 

now call me stupid but Nick just seems like a huge joke to me

----------


## Kona

> 102 is blinking dirt cheap, $35.



sorry but for some of us $35 is not something we can just go spend willy nilly

----------


## obama6493

> Ya, I use his flash timer thing to do some EILDing =P
> 
> That's about all I really get out of this guy.



I don't know why but i can't watch these videos at all...

They feel so...so...pseudo-real...

----------


## Raspberry

> I don't know why but i can't watch these videos at all...
> 
> They feel so...so...pseudo-real...



Originally I was very neutral-stanced in this. But I can't watch the videos either. I watch them half-bored because as most others have said, it's the same old stuff but made all fancy and hard to understand. To me, this looked as though he only does it to confuse the watcher, making them think he knows his stuff and so they should buy what he offers them. This is probably screwing with a lot of newbies, in my opinion.

I have also taken a test (my school does this to all their pupils) to find out what type of learner I am so I can efficiently study for my exams. I was one of the very few to be visual, which means those videos should appeal and make sense to me. Obviously, the listening and physical aspects of learning also make up the final outcome for my learning type, but considering I learn a hell of a lot faster when I'm using powerpoints, charts, and graphs, I figured that the graphs should've made more sense to me, especially since I already know quite a bit about lucid dreaming.

Everyone knows that graphs aren't difficult at all. I'm a credit maths student. So when I was looking at them, I shouldn't have been thinking "What the bloody hell is this?" I had to stop at each one, and then finally I would conclude it was a bunch of random lines, and who really needs a graph to explain sleep paralysis? There were other things I disagreed with too, such as SP (and the itches etc) being "excruciatingly painful". I didn't watch all of the videos. Most of them just made me laugh (such as the stop, drop and roll one).

I like to keep an open mind about most things, but I just can't see any sense in what he's saying and feel as though people are being scammed.

As WLLPEREGOY said, some of us are hesitant to part with our money (I'm a middle-class teenager living in a recession). $35 is like what, £24 or something? For me that's quite a bit to be spending on something. Especially when I can get a heap of info for free on this site. And people are finding and coming up with free methods all of them time. When I have trouble with something, I can just post a thread asking about it and quite a few people will help me out and patiently answer my questions, almost always offering new information I didn't know about before. 

Another thing that bothers me is all of this "research" he's done. I didn't find any evidence of this in the videos. Sure, he showed a picture of a stack of books. But they could have been a stack of _any_ books. I don't remember seeing any names on spines because he flipped them around to show the pages instead.

I think I'll stay away from him thanks. I would rather keep the £50 from 102 and 103 and spend it on something I'm not so wary of.

My 2 cents  :wink2:

----------


## Kona

yeah either DV or EWLD which is like $5 if you want a book thats a nice price and chalk fulll of stuff

----------


## Maria92

> Last night, I got lucid.
> 
> I was sting crosslegged on the floor in-doors. I looked at my legs and thought, "if I'm dreaming, my legs will be flexible and pain-free."
> 
> Slowly, tentatively, I moved my knees down to the ground. Yes, I was dreaming.
> 
> So What.
> 
> There is nothing to do.
> ...

----------


## EbbTide000

Sorry

I am deleting post now.

----------


## saltyseedog

> No one is on my frequency at Dream Views.



I'm on your frequency!!! 





> Lucidity just for the sake of it does not turn me on. It (for me) is lonely and boring.



Me too, I need other dreamers.

----------


## EbbTide000

1 Saltyseedog

How do you feel about opening a thread just for U and I (and anyone who wants to join in)? I don’t want to open threads in case I step-out-of-line and “They” obliterate my thread. If “They” delete my thread everyone else’s posts are lost along with mine. If it is your thread, they might ban me and my posts but I will still be able to read how everyone else, contributing to your thread, are getting on.

If you open a thread I will post what I posted on saltcube (and somewhere on Dream Views) to your thread about how to get to my beach, to mutual dream and remote view. On saltcube I called my thread. “New Synchronicity Game”.

Also, salty see dog, can you teach me how to post pictures into the body of my post’s, please.

----------


## saltyseedog

> 1 Saltyseedog
> 
> How do you feel about opening a thread just for U and I (and anyone who wants to join in)? I dont want to open threads in case I step-out-of-line and They obliterate my thread. If They delete my thread everyone elses posts are lost along with mine. If it is your thread, they might ban me and my posts but I will still be able to read how everyone else, contributing to your thread, are getting on.
> 
> If you open a thread I will post what I posted on saltcube (and somewhere on Dream Views) to your thread about how to get to my beach, to mutual dream and remote view. On saltcube I called my thread. New Synchronicity Game.
> 
> Also, salty see dog, can you teach me how to post pictures into the body of my posts, please.



Omg I'm tired and confused by all these words!!! Ya we can make a thread I don't see why not. I don't think anybody cares. Make it on beyond dreaming if its about dreamsharing and stuff.
If you wanna post pictures in posts press that button that has atree on it and it will say insert image. Then enter the url of a picture from like google images.

----------


## EbbTide000

Thanx Saltyseedog

it is nearly 4pm here and I am at Netzone Internet Cafe. 

I am working at uploading the first target for my saltcube thread called, "New Synchronicit Game". 

When I finished I will follow your instructions and open a thread on "Beyond Dreaming" and try to upload todays pic. hope it works.

----------


## saltyseedog

cool its like 9:25 here but I only got 3 hours sleep.... so is this the beach or whatever that you created and you get to it by going through a portal thing in your avatar?

----------


## Mzzkc

> How do you feel about opening a thread just for U and I (and anyone who wants to join in)? I dont want to open threads in case I step-out-of-line and They obliterate my thread. If They delete my thread everyone elses posts are lost along with mine. If it is your thread, they might ban me and my posts but I will still be able to read how everyone else, contributing to your thread, are getting on.



I'm all for intense paranoia every now and again, but don't you think your fears are a little unfounded? I'm pretty sure you'll be fine as long as you don't post ridiculous amounts of porn or anything like that.

----------


## EbbTide000

Ok Mzzkc

I will restrain myself from posting ridiculous amounts of porn, (hahaha)

Saltyseedog

The beach (or whatever) is not and imaginary creation. 

The beach is a geological reality.

The mandala might be imaginary or maybe not (hehehe). It is up to participants to experience and decide.

----------


## saltyseedog

Everything is imaginary in a dream silly!!!! I'm going to Amsterdam tonight to smoke weed and I have no idea what it looks like, so my subconscious is going to fill in the details.
I would go to your beach place tonight but I gotta lotta dream plans... maybe later this week.
Have you ever been flying in a deam? Its friggin amazing! I fly over my town and I can see everything in detail in the entire town like flying in a plane and looking out the window.

----------


## EbbTide000

Ok Saltyseedog

The thread called:

“Synchronicity Game” light, fun friendly”

is up on “Beyond Dreaming”

Could not get the picture up but the first link takes you to my Flickr account where I posted it last week. I hope I can learn how to get the pictures up without the link to my Flicker account.

It may take a bit of time before folks get the gist of this game.

----------


## EbbTide000

No, saltyseedog

Not everything is imaginary in a dream. This game causes of the scale " SYNCHRONICITIES". but it is not something to debate and argue about, it is better felt than telt. 

Oh! you just replied on that thread. so I will go to that thread and talk.





> Everything is imaginary in a dream silly!!!! I'm going to Amsterdam tonight to smoke weed and I have no idea what it looks like, so my subconscious is going to fill in the details.
> I would go to your beach place tonight but I gotta lotta dream plans... maybe later this week.
> Have you ever been flying in a deam? Its friggin amazing! I fly over my town and I can see everything in detail in the entire town like flying in a plane and looking out the window.

----------


## Wrighty

I would advise everyone to watch Reecejones87 
he gives you alot of info on how to lucid dream and after a few days of getting into it i had my very first lucid dream

Hes also a really nice guy very knowledgable!!  ::D:  

FOOK Nick newport soon as i had the false feeling and left him a nice comment!! haha BULL S**T!!

----------


## Dunchfastmo

i found the roll over graphs to be very helpfull

----------


## EbbTide000

Hi MCCKC

Your avatar attracted me instantly when I saw it. It reminded me of a bowling ball. A bowling ball was my dream remote viewing Target that was uploaded to my Flickr account on 11/May/2010.

But

Just now, I went to get some bread and the Sunday paper and on the paper stand, on the shelf under the Sunday Mail was a FREE paper called "RIP IT UP" and emblazoned on the front cover IS your avatar.

I brought it home, put it on a table in the courtyard of the boarding house where I live, snapped it with my mobile and uploaded it to my Flickr account.

Put "Flickr" into the Google search.bar, then put "ultravioletfrog" into the Flickr search bar and the last photo in my Flickr account is your avatar.

To me, this cements that in the dream I remembered when I woke-up this morning IS the next dream Target for my new thread called "Synchronicity Game" light, fun and friendly.

So thanx Melchezadec. I will pay my tithe to U.







> I'm all for intense paranoia every now and again, but don't you think your fears are a little unfounded? I'm pretty sure you'll be fine as long as you don't post ridiculous amounts of porn or anything like that.

----------


## Raspberry

... Pm?

----------


## Maria92

HAL 9000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is this your card?

----------


## LucidPower

I think we should organise a DDOS attack on his websites to stop the spread of his nonsense in the lucid dreaming community.

----------


## iFatal

> I think we should organise a DDOS attack on his websites to stop the spread of his nonsense in the lucid dreaming community.



Haha we would need a good programmer to do that.

----------


## Jeff777

> Haha we would need a good programmer to do that.



Take it a to a PM fellas.  If you're serious, you don't want Google indexing this shit.   :tongue2:   Plus I'm pretty sure "Tricky Dick Nick" has been to this thread.

----------


## Maria92

> Haha we would need a good programmer to do that.



No....you really don't. Just google "dangerous kitten". What you do with it after that is not my fault. The contents are legal as is. It is how you use them that gets you into trouble. I'll just leave this warning here:

PEOPLE HAVE BEEN REAL LIFE V& FOR DDoS ATTACKS

----------


## EbbTide000

Wow! Mario 92 (and the rest of U)

Dangerous Kitten (?!?)

I woke out of an in-depth dream on 28/Dec/2010. Most of my dreams evaporate within about 3 seconds of me being aware that I'm awake.

I woke-up on the 28th, engulfed in a wonderful dream. To hold-on to it I shouted:

 "Playfull Kittens!".

But the dream still evaporated and I couldn't even remember why I shouted the phrase:

"Playful Kittens!".

So, I grabbed this phone and opened a thread on SALTCUBE called "Playfull Kittens".

I recon, if you paid you 35 dollars and logged-in to SALTCUBE you would agree that, that thread alone is worth you $35.

Playful Kittens is (at the moment) thread 27 of the 40 threads on the front page at SALTCUBE.

----------


## Kunal19

:Oh noes: lucidology

----------


## Kona

> Wow! Mario 92 (and the rest of U)
> 
> Dangerous Kitten (?!?)
> 
> I woke out of an in-depth dream on 28/Dec/2010. Most of my dreams evaporate within about 3 seconds of me being aware that I'm awake.
> 
> I woke-up on the 28th, engulfed in a wonderful dream. To hold-on to it I shouted:
> 
>  "Playfull Kittens!".
> ...



um...... uh............ what uh was that?

----------


## Maria92

> um...... uh............ what uh was that?



I have no idea, other than yet another plug for saltcube. Seriously...who pays 35 bucks to use a forum, especially one that contains information that is freely available? And yeah...all this mumbo jumbo about beaches and mandalas belongs in BD. 

If I'm reading this right, she's trying to connect internet hacking tools to...an in-dream coincidence?

----------


## Kona

> I have no idea, other than yet another plug for saltcube. Seriously...who pays 35 bucks to use a forum, especially one that contains information that is freely available? And yeah...all this mumbo jumbo about beaches and mandalas belongs in BD. 
> 
> If I'm reading this right, she's trying to connect internet hacking tools to...an in-dream coincidence?



i cant make any sense out of her posts

----------


## Sarge_Maximus2

Ok, so I just found this thread, and one of the key things I've been using apparently is actually from this guy on youtube, despite the fact that I read it here on dreamviews. And that is the idea that the mind and body are seperate and that the body tries to see if the mind is awake or not. I have used this technique to successfully complete a WILD before, but since it hasn't happened again, I've been wondering if it was just luck. So maybe it was. My question then is how do you enter sleep paralysis and how awake are you supposed to keep your mind. I always adjust my consciousness to get lower if I feel I'll never get relaxed enouygh for my body to sleep, but I just end up falling asleep. Help would be appreciated. And thanks for the warning, it's very important imho.

----------


## Raspberry

It was most likely placebo dude  :Sad:

----------


## Maria92

> It was most likely placebo dude



Agreed. Sarge, you also seem to have some misconceptions about WILD. I would highly recommend checking out Mzzkc's WILD guide.

----------


## EbbTide000

I like Nick's free YouTube 101 cos it is all about "relaxation". Lobsang Rampa said that Astral Projection is all about complete relaxation and right intentions.

Due to nerve damage some of my muscles are extremely tight and tense 24/7. They ache 24/7. If I don't take pain meds at bedtime I wake 3 or more times in 8 hours in pain.

Two days ago I bought a new gadget and hope to come of my pain meds, permanently. Then I hope to get into Nick' s Free 101 and post any results.

----------


## Sarge_Maximus2

> Agreed. Sarge, you also seem to have some misconceptions about WILD. I would highly recommend checking out Mzzkc's WILD guide.



Ok... can you elaborate? What exactly do I need to ignore and replace with this Mzzkc's theories?

----------


## Mzzkc

> this Mzzkc's



I lawled.

----------


## Maria92

> Ok... can you elaborate? What exactly do I need to ignore and replace with this Mzzkc's theories?



Well, you mentioned inducing sleep paralysis. That's fine and all, but not necessary. Indeed...falling asleep is what you really want to do, but while retaining consciousness.

----------


## EbbTide000

Help!

3 folk have sent something to my DV profile. It just says "tick this box" if you want Him/Her/it as a friend or contact?

 What will happen if I tick the box?

Will I be notified every time said friend or contact posts any where on DV.

Or what?

----------


## Sarge_Maximus2

> Well, you mentioned inducing sleep paralysis. That's fine and all, but not necessary. Indeed...falling asleep is what you really want to do, but while retaining consciousness.



And the tutorial must tell me how to do that, yes?

----------


## Maria92

> And the tutorial must tell me how to do that, yes?



Certainly.

----------


## Raspberry

> Help!
> 
> 3 folk have sent something to my DV profile. It just says "tick this box" if you want Him/Her/it as a friend or contact?
> 
>  What will happen if I tick the box?
> 
> Will I be notified every time said friend or contact posts any where on DV.
> 
> Or what?



Well, as it says, if you want the people as friends, tick the box. If not, don't tick the box. Most people just tick the box.

----------


## Jeff777

> Help!
> 
> 3 folk have sent something to my DV profile. It just says "tick this box" if you want Him/Her/it as a friend or contact?
> 
>  What will happen if I tick the box?
> 
> Will I be notified every time said friend or contact posts any where on DV.
> 
> Or what?



Visit meta much?

Lol.  You're funny.  I can't tell what your motives are but it sure will be interesting to watch your activity around here.   :Drama:

----------


## EbbTide000

Well I'm not most people, Raspberry.

So

For now i'm not clicking no boxes. Yes, I want you 3 guys as friends but I don't know what the Dream Views definition of friends is, yet.

And

Jeff777

If you want Fun, then, gaze into my avatar before you have a nap, then make a note of anything peculiar that pops up in your dream. Then see if it correlates to what I post in my "Synchronicity Game thread" in the Beyond Dreaming forum.

I'll post in just over 24 hours from now.

You don't have to post if you don't want to. Just give it a go for fun.

I probably won't be chatting to participants anyway cos I don't want to be flamed or slammed. I think the best way to side step all that is to stay silent and just post a Target once a week and let participants discover for themselves.

----------


## Raspberry

> Well I'm not most people, Raspberry.
> 
> So
> 
> For now i'm not clicking no boxes. Yes, I want you 3 guys as friends but I don't know what the Dream Views definition of friends is, yet.
> 
> And
> 
> Jeff777
> ...



Umm... Ok. I was trying to help, and I just said that that's what the majority of people do. It's not like I pushed your buttons. DV friends don't really do anything except show up on your profile. Don't worry, your internet reputation remains intact.

Also, I think you should keep to to main topic of the thread, instead of posting questions here that have nothing to do with it. I noticed you doing this on other threads too. If you have a question, make a thread or pm someone (a mod perhaps?) please.

Cheers

----------


## TheUncanny

I think there is some over-reaction to Nick's methods for LD/OBE induction techniques, as I found much of his information is accurate and helpful. I'll give some personal testimonials based on my 10+ years of practicing lucid dreaming:


*Spoiler* for _Rhythmic napping_: 



I have verified this works before and after I discovered what LDing was, and it is a prevalent technique among many "LD experts" and techniques that are present today. In fact, this in combination with DEILD (which nick also talks about) is probably the technique I have had the most success with, though I find my normal alarm seems to works better than his saltcube timer. Of course, this is most likely because my computer tends to go into hibernation or restart after a few hours of inactivity, which prevents the timer from reliably doing its job.





*Spoiler* for _Using Sleep paralysis to enter LDs_: 



Again, so prevalent is this technique that it's almost not a technique, but rather a generally understood and accepted practice in the lucid dreaming community. Many of my of lucid dreams/OBEs have come about from being able to stay conscious while sleep paralysis sets in, and is an integral part of most WILD methods.





*Spoiler* for _The urge to move_: 



I find this particular information to be accurate.  Not more than 2-3 days ago I took a sleeping pill to help fall asleep.  The directions were to take one pill at bedtime, however I took the pill and did not go to bed until 30-45 later. At that time I was pretty tired, however when I crawled into bed, it was like my body was trying to fall asleep TOO fast. I immediately had these overwhelming urges to roll around (not itches or anything)...so much so that it actually prevented my from falling asleep for an hour or so after going to bed, despite being very drowsy. I think there is some sense in the "sensory deprivation" idea presented, but it didn't really make sense in this instance, or many other instances.

When Nick talks about the "body" testing the mind to see if its cognizant before inducing sleep paralysis, I do not think he actually means the brainless parts of our body, that seemed rather clear to me.  Instead, I think he simply means that its the mind testing itself, by using bodily sensations as a tool.  However, it is much simpler to explain the process by referring to_ body and mind_ than it would be to refer to _mind and mind_ (which would probably be more accurate). I don't have any doubt that there is some sort of a process in which the mind/brain evaluates itself before inducing sleep paralysis. How this happens, not sure. But, its not as if people are suddenly stricken with sleep paralysis while fully awake if they stay up past the time they normally go to bed. With that being said, much of what Nick is saying is consistent with my own experiences of the "urge to move" sensations, the majority of which occurred before ever discovering his videos. I do find that, by ignoring them and continuing to remain still and relaxed, sleep paralysis can and does set in much faster. 

On a side note, when Nick talks about specifically about itches, he does not fully attribute those sensations to mind tests. Instead, he explains why itching can (physically) happen and how to fix the problems: 
-Drinking more water 
-Vacuuming more often
-Use lotion
-Take a warm shower before going to bed





*Spoiler* for _Hypnogogic Hallucinations_: 



Once again, I find this information to be very accurate and consistent with my own experiences. Nick talks about those moments in which you are starting to fall asleep, and experience an impression of something (maybe a random landscape), but no recollection of when that landscape came into view. This *IS* a great indicator of when you body is entering a good state for LD practice, as it is essentially a mini-dream (which lets you know your body is just about relaxed enough to start the dreaming process).





*Spoiler* for _Other aspects I found accurate and helpful_: 



1.) * How he discerns visualization from conceptualization when trying to conjure mental imagery.* Most of the time, especially when you first begin, you do not physically see the imagery you are picturing. Instead, it much closer to mentally imagining what the object/scenery looks like in your minds eye.  Trying to actually see the imagery is usually counter productive, as it shifts your focus to your physical sense of sight, which is normally just blackness or those swirling patterns you see behind your eyelids.  If you are able to conceptualize an object/scene well enough, and you are relaxed enough, the mental imagery will subtly transition into actual visuals naturally. I find that you do not really need to "try" to actually see anything, it'll just happen as a consequence of good conceptualization.

2.) *Avoiding bright light (and general sensory stimulation) an hour or so before bed.* If I am on the computer or watching TV up until the moment I go to bed, I find that I have much less of a chance of having an LD (or even dreams in general). However when I do not, the inverse is true...again something that is consistent with my own experiences long before ever discovering Nick's videos.  Another example is camping. As sensory stimulation gradually lessens as the night falls (no TV, no overwhelming artificial sources of light, etc) I tend to get tired much earlier in the evening. This makes it easier to have LDs, as my mind is not buzzing with the random thoughts and my body has prepared itself for sleep BEFORE I try to go to sleep.

3.) *Having a better chance of LDing early in the morning than once you go to bed*.  Again ,this is more or less an accepted truth in the LDing community. Not only has you mind had a chance to quiet itself through normal sleep and sensory deprivation, but your body is "pre-relaxed" for your LDing convenience. In addition, like Nick said, your melatonin IS being converted into serotonin which helps awaken the mind. So, what can happen when you have a tired and relaxed body and an alert mind? 

4.) *Keeping a dream journal for better dream recall*. I don't really need to go into why this is no "BS".

5.) * Using the sensation of touch to help solidify dreams.* All I can tell you is that is has been my main solution for curing separation blindness, and I have heard of this technique (or variations thereof) countless times across several books and LDing forums. 




Sure, none of this stuff is really "new". However I personally had to gather and piece-together little nuggets of good information (over several years of studying) and Nick did this for you in his "How to OBE" 2-part video.  For me, it simply reinforced what I had already come to know was accurate, while giving a different perspective on the basic ideas. And yes, while some of the graphs did seem superfluous, I found many of them to be helpful. I am an artist, and being as such, I am a very visual learner. If I can correlate what I am being taught with a visual reference of some sort, usually that information will make more sense to me.  

Nick may not be best graph maker, or may not know enough about learning theory to use visual references in the most effective ways.  I don't necessarily think he was using graphs to con people, but rather just to reinforce the ideas he was speaking about. And so what if he charges money for his product.  I can testify that it can be hard and time consuming to research, discuss, and test all of the various LDing stuff out there -- to weed out the stuff that doesn't seem to work and be left with a nice, comprehensive understanding on how to have LDs.  I don't see anything wrong with Nick asking for compensation for the time and effort it takes. And if you don't think so, no one if forcing you to buy his videos...just like no one is forcing you to buy the crap off infomercials.  Like you all have been saying, the same info can be found on the internet for free...so instead of paying Nick to research and assemble the info for you, do it yourself and save some $$. 

But most of all, put on your big-boy underwear and stop whining.  If you don't like his stuff, that's perfectly fine. Move on already. All this talk about taking down his website and etc is despicable...

----------


## Raspberry

I wish I had big boy underwear. But unfortunately my short girl boxers tend to have stuff like "I <3 Girl Pants" or "I'm with the band" or "GO BANANA'S!" on them.

If anyone knows where to find big boy underwear, let me know  :Shades wink:

----------


## Hukif

> I think there is some over-reaction to Nick's methods for LD/OBE induction techniques, as I found much of his information is accurate and helpful. I'll give some personal testimonials based on my 10+ years of practicing lucid dreaming:



Sorry to ruin it for you, but the thread doesn't focuses on his methods, but in the way he presents them, and the innacuracies on his science-facts, so you are arguing against something that is not there.

----------


## Maria92

> I wish I had big boy underwear. But unfortunately my short girl boxers tend to have stuff like "I <3 Girl Pants" or "I'm with the band" or "GO BANANA'S!" on them.



asfjdkalsk;lkdjfa  :drool:

----------


## TheUncanny

> ... so you are arguing against something that is not there.



Welp, wouldn't be the first time.  :Shades wink:  

Nevertheless, though to me it's obvious his assertions are not "super-scientific", I don't think that justifies the way he is being villainized.  Like others have said in this topic, he just seems like someone who knows of a method that works for him, as well as many other people, and is inferring what he feels is a plausible explanation for why those methods work.  We all make inferences, and 99% of us do not take the time to sit down and research the science behind every inference we make to see if we are right. So what if he's wrong regarding the details of why his method works? Big freakin deal.  I don't see why everyone is so butt-hurt over it.

I get why people don't like salesmen, I understand some of the points made about the graphs, and though I don't really see it myself, I can understand why an attitude of "only I am right and all others are wrong" would be irritating.  But honestly, what I think is really pissing people off is that, despite him not being the most lovable or knowledgeable person in the LD community, he has become very successful selling a method that, for all intensive purposes, is PROVEN (even if he doesn't fully understand how it works).

How easy is it to hate someone like that -- someone who only seems to half-know what he's talking about, but has been that successful? 

To me, I'm not bothered by salesmanship. I don't care for it, but I am not bothered by it. I do not have a problem with someone trying to infer explanations that fit their experiences either. I take things with a grain of salt, keep what I like and discard the rest.  No point in getting all frazzled about it. After reading some on the comments on this thread, and the mob-like mentality of it all...it's sort of disappointing.

----------


## Hukif

But thats you and the other posters are others!
That, and you are doing exactly the same as the people here. Getting all frazzled about something irrelevant, like someone not liking someone else, considering your big-boy part-of-a-post before, that is. Oh and btw, SE clearly stated that he didn't want the mis-information to spread, so he wasn't angry at the dude being sucessful, but at lying while being, whether he was doing it on purpose or not.

----------


## Jeff777

> But most of all, put on your big-boy underwear and stop whining.  If you don't like his stuff, that's perfectly fine. Move on already. All this talk about taking down his website and etc is despicable...



This website is open to (and encourages) opposing viewpoints.  In the on-topic forums, members are certainly more than welcome to voice their opinions pertaining to subjects and/or people surrounding lucid dreaming.  I don't condone talk of attacking anyone's property, but if you don't like the anti-newport conversations going on in here, perhaps it is _you_ who should "move on already."

----------


## TheUncanny

> That, and you are doing exactly the same as the people here. Getting all frazzled about something irrelevant, like someone not liking someone else, considering your big-boy part-of-a-post before, that is.



I wouldn't say I'm getting frazzled, but I see your point. Of course, now you find yourself in my position...being liable for accusations of "frazzlery" simply for pointing out the act in others.  ::banana:: 





> ...so he wasn't angry at the dude being sucessful, but at lying while being, whether he was doing it on purpose or not.



I'd say that lying implies he is _intentionally_ misleading people, but I haven't yet read a good argument justifying that claim. If anything, he is just wrong about why his method works, despite the fact that it does work.  I'd say there is just as good of a chance, or more so, that Nick believes what he is teaching is true.  If that is the case, then at worst he is just misguided...not necessarily a charlatan. 





> This website is open to (and encourages) opposing viewpoints.  In the on-topic forums, members are certainly more than welcome to voice their opinions pertaining to subjects and/or people surrounding lucid dreaming.  I don't condone talk of attacking anyone's property, but if you don't like the anti-newport conversations going on in here, perhaps it is _you_ who should "move on already."



That doesn't sound like someone who is "encouraging" _my_ opposing point of view.  Nevertheless, this marks my third response in a 15-page discussion -- the "moving on comment" might be a little premature when applied to myself, but to others, not so much. Aside from some of the interesting biology posted by the OP, I hardly see this discussion amounting to much more than youthful angst and the accompanying desire to stand against something, _anything_.  

But I digress

----------


## Hukif

But I like doing that stuff! You are the one who don't, so its ok for me, right?
That and the thread keeps getting bumped I think, so that newbies can read it.

----------


## Kona

> Welp, wouldn't be the first time.  
> 
> Nevertheless, though to me it's obvious his assertions are not "super-scientific", I don't think that justifies the way he is being villainized.  Like others have said in this topic, he just seems like someone who knows of a method that works for him, as well as many other people, and is inferring what he feels is a plausible explanation for why those methods work.  We all make inferences, and 99% of us do not take the time to sit down and research the science behind every inference we make to see if we are right. So what if he's wrong regarding the details of why his method works? Big freakin deal.  I don't see why everyone is so butt-hurt over it.
> 
> I get why people don't like salesmen, I understand some of the points made about the graphs, and though I don't really see it myself, I can understand why an attitude of "only I am right and all others are wrong" would be irritating.  But honestly, what I think is really pissing people off is that, despite him not being the most lovable or knowledgeable person in the LD community, he has become very successful selling a method that, for all intensive purposes, is PROVEN (even if he doesn't fully understand how it works).



the thing is is that he calls other methods "weak and ineffective" yet them, it pisses us off because he is not giving credit to the people that actually invented them, rather he is pretty much calling them stupid when millions of people have had success with their techniques

and he doesn't say he is giving his version, he says it's his own technique   :Picard face palm:

----------


## EbbTide000

Hi W

U wrote:

the thing is that he calls other methods "weak and ineffective" yet then, it pisses us off because he is not giving credit to the people that actually invented them, rather he is pretty much calling them stupid when millions of people have had success with their techniques 
and he doesn't say he is giving his version, he says it's his own technique

Well W

I cut into my home work time to get out my printed out PDF's to see if Nick ever acknowledged any one. I was surprised to find only one. Here it is 

In part 5 of nine, page 16 

"Bruce Mien has written several excellent books using this method, all of which I recommend.

His first four books are accounts of his nonphysical explorations.

His 5th book called 'The Afterlife Knowledge Guidebook' is more 'how to' oriented.

I've read them all and recommend them to anyone else who's seriously interested in nonphysical exploration.

W

In this Part 5 there are 25 pages. Each page has a "slide" (graph or picture) then text. This 16th "slide" is a photograph of Bruce Moen's book titled "The Afterlife Knowledge Guidebook".

I got to get back to my assignment. It is due to ne handed up at 4pm to day and it is already 12:30 pm now, here in. Adelaide, South Australia.

----------


## TheUncanny

> the thing is is that he calls other methods "weak and ineffective" yet them, it pisses us off because he is not giving credit to the people that actually invented them, rather he is pretty much calling them stupid when millions of people have had success with their techniques
> 
> and he doesn't say he is giving his version, he says it's his own technique



I have only seen one of his videos ("how to have OBEs") but I haven't actually ever heard him say that other techniques are weak and ineffective. Even if he did, maybe that's just his opinion of those techniques. Surely if he feels those techniques are weak and ineffective, he has the right to voice that opinion. Maybe other techniques did not work for him, or the people he knew. If the technique he uses does work for him, as well as other people who were not having success with other methods, it wouldn't be that unreasonable to see why Nick might feel that way.

And for him saying this is _his_ technique -- again, I have never actually heard him say "By the way, I came up with this technique completely on my own, I invented everything about this technique myself"...have you?  

If Nick were to say something like "Here's my technique...", that could mean many things. Perhaps by "my technique" he simply means "the technique I use".   Perhaps he means "the technique I have made by mixing and matching other various techniques I have learned about".  In both cases, it would be accurate to say "my" technique, and yet, neither one implies fraud.  After all, if someone were to ask you what *your* technique for lucid dreaming is, how would you respond?  Wouldn't you simply explain the technique that works for you, even though it's a technique you didn't come up with yourself?  Does that make you a fraud?  What If I have technique that is composed of many different techniques other people came up with, but is combined _in a unique way_, would it actually be fraudulent to say that it's "my" technique?

There are many different interpretations you could have, but it's almost like everyone is* trying* to assume the worst about Nick.

----------


## Jeff777

> That doesn't sound like someone who is "encouraging" _my_ opposing point of view.  Nevertheless, this marks my third response in a 15-page discussion -- the "moving on comment" might be a little premature when applied to myself, but to others, not so much. Aside from some of the interesting biology posted by the OP, I hardly see this discussion amounting to much more than youthful angst and the accompanying desire to stand against something, _anything_.



I hear you, but what I was simply doing was showing you the same exit door that you so courteously showed to the other members in here.  You're more than welcome to voice your pro-nickmatt opinions, but don't tell others to basically eff off for voicing their own.  I agree with you about the rest of this thread though.. after the OP left, this thread basically became garbage.

----------


## TheUncanny

I may have been a little curt, sorry about that.  And it's not so much about me being pro-mattnick, as I have said before I have only see one of his videos. It's more just that I feel sorry for the guy for getting so much heat from this thread, and that I don't feel it's warranted. It was enough to where I felt like I should chime in to help balance-out the conversation.  This was especially the case from all of the positive things I have heard about how well his technique works, not only on the saltcube website, but also here (as I'm sure you can testify to).

----------


## Purebred

My first LD was successful because of Stop, Drop and Roll. I don't like how that guy sells his stuff and how 12 videos could be put into one and I hate his "I am clever" voice with a lot of TOTALLY unnecessary graphics in his videos, but he helpped and that's ok. ;D

----------


## EbbTide000

> I don't know why but i can't watch these videos at all...
> 
> They feel so...so...pseudo-real...



 Hi obama649;1608816, Jeff777 and WLLPEREGOY.





> I don't know why but i can't watch these videos at all...
> 
> They feel so...so...pseudo-real...



 (Thanking for this post:  Jeff777 and WLLPEREGOY).

Soon after I joined Saltcube back in 2008 and got Lucidilogy 101, Nick asked for my opinion of his Lucidilogy 101.

I was angry and rude.

I told him he was ugly and that I got so depressed and angry with the download that I told "it" to shut-up cos I couldn't keep up.

Nick thanked and rewarded me for my feed back.

Anyway

Yesterday, W, when your post interrupted my year 12, philosophy and psychology homework time, I got out my Lucidilogy 102 printouts, cos, I wanted to see for myself if Nick really did not give acknowledgments to those who inspired his work.

I haven't looked at the printouts in yonks.

Now, I remember that I was having success, when I first got 102. I wasn't getting much out of the videos cos I still felt that I couldn't keep up. Just like I couldn't keep up with the 101 video's.

But

I would toddler down to Maccas for breaky. I would sit out in the courtyard and read a part of the printouts and follow the instructions.

And they happened (!!!)

You see, I get easily overwhelmed when a "teacher" is talking-at-me, (even at my evening-classes where I do year 12 psychology and philosophy). But if I can just have a print-out of the lesson and get away by myself, alone, ... well ... everything starts to make sense.

Nick's 102 is in 9 parts (in 9 video downloads). Each video down-load has a full transcript, (pdf).

Only yesterday, WLLPEREGOY, did the penny drop.

I can now see why there is sooo many annoying and confusing illustrations and graphs flashing by in the vids. The vids are based on his print-outs, (not the other way round).

I like the printouts, they work for me.

The printouts read like a picture-book. There is a picture in the top half of each page and some written explanation in the second half of the page.

And there is only one illustration per page.

Infact ...

I remember now ...

After working with the printouts, I either posted on saltcube or private emailed Nick about how I liked his PDF layout cos I could slowdown, relax, and absorb just one page at a time.

Then, close my eyes, and follow the instructions from just that one page.

While sitting at MacDonalds, having breakfast.

----------


## EbbTide000

Hi W

I am looking at part 2 of Lucidilogy 102 to see if you and others are right when you accuse my Nick Newport of not acknowledging those who inspired him. Implying other people are idiots. And making-up complicated new words to explain simple, well known LD/OBE concepts.

Here goes:

Part 2 of nine is called the mental geography map.

Slide 3 (page 3) yes Nick might be running other (un-named) authors down when he writes:

"The location where you visualize something has a big impact on the results you get from the visualization. Most books tell you to visualize one thing or another without really telling you how or where to imagine it.

Slide 6 (page 6)

Nick acknowledges Robert Monroe.

"Robert Monroe wrote about observing '3D Blackness' in your closed eyelids when you reach a decent trance."

And

"The Eyelid Blackness is One Form of Robert Monroe's '3D Blackness'".

Slide 19 (page 19) yes, here is Nick making up new words and phrases:

"This is really important so I'm giving it a big fancy name

Like, "The Fundamental Theorem of Sleep Paralysis".

This is the

"Principle of Indirect Visualization" which states (...)

Ok, I accept the evidence, folks, he, Nick, unabashed, made-up those terms, (words and phrases) in part 2.

I'll be back if I find more as I read through the other 7 parts.

----------


## EbbTide000

Hi W

I have just finished Part 4, of 102 called "The O.B.E. Blueprint & The Visualization Construction Toolkit".

Slide 34 (page 34) 

And yes, Nick may be running-down other authors with this statement.

"Now that you have the toolkit, you can check visualizations you've seen in other books and see if they're missing any parts.

Then you can add what's missing and make them much more effective.

----------


## Kona

2 things Debrajane
1. for the love of god can you just call me will or WLLPEREGOY

2.

you don't need to post 4 things to argue against my post

----------


## EbbTide000

Ok Billy

I Love, Love, Love that Lovely pic.

And I like U.

----------


## Kona

agh billy is like my least favortie name but u can call me that  :smiley:

----------


## saltyseedog

Hi billy

I like the the pic and love U

----------


## Raspberry

I total luv u 2 billybabe <3 <3 <3

MWAH!  ::loveyou:: 

*rolls eyes*

----------


## nina

> Soon after I joined Saltcube back in 2008 and got Lucidilogy 101, Nick asked for my opinion of his Lucidilogy 101. I was angry and rude. I told him he was ugly and that I got so depressed and angry with the download that I told "it" to shut-up cos I couldn't keep up.



whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 



Lois, this is not my Batman glass.

----------


## TheUncanny

ha, classic!

Welp, I guess it's time I hit the ol' dusty trail...

----------


## EbbTide000

I don't understand the last two posts.

----------


## Raspberry

I don't understand any of your posts. But I'll try  :wink2:

----------


## Kona

> I don't understand any of your posts. But I'll try



hahaaa........

----------


## nina

^well, that's certainly one way to kill a joke.  :Picard face palm:

----------


## Kona

> So I am a Big Bird (hahaha)
> 
> FAMILY GUY - Bird is the Word! 
> 
> YouTube - FAMILY GUY - Bird is the Word!
> 
> (1:18) 38 million, 433 thousand, 386 views so far! WOW
> 
> I the big bird might be getting PRETTY popular
> ...



Cool story bro?

----------


## Maria92

There is no way someone can be this new to the internet...

----------


## Kona

I'm pretty sure that this thread has turned into the following things

1. Debrajane making no sense
2. Aquanina making funny responses
3. Raspberry also making funny responses
4. The occaisoinal on topic post that causes a short arguement
5. Debrajane saying something weird back
6. 2 and 3 

XD

(no offense intended)

----------


## Raspberry

Agreed  ::lol::

----------


## EbbTide000

> There is no way someone can be this new to the internet...



Mario92

What do you mean by that?

----------


## Maria92

It's just...you fly off on some of the craziest tangents. This thread was initially about Newport's spread of misinformation, but it now contains everything from bizarre kitten dreams and mandalas to bird word (seriously, you've never seen that before, or at least heard of it?). It's some of the strangest posting patterns I think I've ever seen.

----------


## EbbTide000

I 

have vigorously defended Nick Newport and his work to the hilt.

And I will continue to do so on this thread (which is about his 102) and on the other thread (which is about his 101).

Other than that, I have to respond to personal taunts by Aquanina, and Raspberry, and Billy, and U.

----------


## Mzzkc

> I 
> 
> have vigorously defended Nick Newport and his work to the hilt.
> 
> And I will continue to do so on this thread (which is about his 102) and on the other thread (which is about his 101).



Why? What compels you to defend him like this? 

The best thing I've heard about 'his' techniques is that mcwillis got a single lucid using one of the more original ones. Of course he admits continued use brought no further success, which leads me to believe it was just placebo.

Again, I ask, why defend this man? Do all of you just find him attractive or something? 'Cause I don't see it.

----------


## Raspberry

> I 
> 
> have vigorously defended Nick Newport and his work to the hilt.
> 
> And I will continue to do so on this thread (which is about his 102) and on the other thread (which is about his 101).
> 
> Other than that, I have to respond to personal taunts by Aquanina, and Raspberry, and Billy, and U.




Whoa. 

Ok, 1:

I'm not _taunting_ you. If I were taunting you I would most likely get referred to a mod, and warned about it. But other than that, I'm not throwing insults at you in the first place. 

The thing is, is that no one understands any of you posts. This is what I try to say to you. I don't say this to taunt you or make you feel bad, but because it's true. You ramble, and talk about things in a way that leaves me confused about what you were trying to point out in the first place. Such as when you talk about the saltcube website, and remote viewing. I still don't know why you brought them up.

Another thing is that in this and other threads, you have brought up random conversations and questions with people that have absolutely no relation to the topic. Fair enough an odd off topic post, but not ones that lead to whole discussions or explanations. You could easily pm someone or look around the site to help you. That is why I mentioned this to you.

2: How many lucid dreams has Nick Newport actually helped you achieve?

----------


## EbbTide000

In my 51 years I have had one OBE and 2 lucid dreams, but something else happens to me. I have no evidence to back this up but I am sure that this "something else" that happens to me is common.

This "something else" is not talked about in any forums that I know of.

I fear talking too loud about it would cause an avalanche of (#@??WTF!!??#@) from you Lucid Dreamers and OBEers.

But

I still think "IT" is common, just subtle and because there is no nomenclature yet formed to discuss "IT" with, "IT" remains invisible.

My "Synchronicity games" make IT more visible, (more sensible).

Folks play my games.  IT happens. Folk freek, and shy away.

I think they shy away because they can't form the words to discuss it because as of yet there are no words in our language (yet) to discus it with,  even though IT does happen and has been happening forever.

It is merging.

It is not Lucid Dreaming or OBEing.

----------


## Maria92

You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension - a dimension of sound, a dimension of sight, a dimension of mind. You're moving into a land of both shadow and substance, of things and ideas. You've just crossed over into the Twilight Zone.

----------


## Raspberry

What is merging?

If you think it's too "out there" but still want to talk about it, I recommend the deep dreaming section  :wink2:

----------


## Mzzkc

She's prolly talking about dream events coinciding with real world events coinciding with other people's real world/dream events. Not a particularly new concept, but definitely not something that should be discussed in this thread.

Debrajane, you still haven't answered my question: Why defend Newport?

----------


## EbbTide000

> What is merging?
> 
> If you think it's too "out there" but still want to talk about it, I recommend the deep dreaming section



Deep Dreaming Section

Thank you Raspberry

I just woke up, it is 7:30am Sunday 20/March here. I am on my phone but later after i've done the cleaning I will go to Netzone Internet Cafe where I can more easily check out the place you mentioned, the Deep Dreaming Section of Dream Views.

I'm excited, I hope there is something about what I call merging there.

----------


## EbbTide000

> She's prolly talking about dream events coinciding with real world events coinciding with other people's real world/dream events. Not a particularly new concept, but definitely not something that should be discussed in this thread.
> 
> Debrajane, you still haven't answered my question: Why defend Newport?



Yup, Mzzkc

Like I'd be be awake grieving early hours of the morn about a cat I murder 30 years ago. My old phone called out "new message" and I opened the lint email to find that Nick just posted on saltcube about a cat. Still in tears about my old, secret crime, I post on salt cube what just happened.

Another time I went down to my sacred beach to begin my remotely viewing/mutual dream thingy. My legs are killing me. I lean on a memorial rock to pluck up the courage to walk to the end of the Henley Beach Jetty. I walk the Jetty holding on to the rail for support.

I nearly make it to the end and back but sit on a bench to rub my painful calfs. 

A young South Korean man walks up to me, holding a fishing rod, His name is Moon Hee. In broken English he says he is does traditional massage. He can help me. He wants my permission to treat my pain.

He spends a good 20 minutes three-and-then free of charge. He really knows his stuff.

I take my Target picture but also take Moon He's pic and post in my rv thread on saltcube.

Next morning I'm back infront of the Jetty on Henley Beach Square fighting the wind and the rain trying to get a decent pic of the War Memorial rock that I leaned-on in pain yesterday. My phone calls out "New Message". It is Nick posting an amazing prophetic lucid dream he just had.

In it there were text-banners streaming from the MOON.

ABOUT CIVIL "WAR".

that is two times Nick Newport and I were "merged"

But even stronger "sync" have happened.

THAT is why I defend Nick and His WORK.

----------


## Mzzkc

So, it has nothing to do with the validity or effectiveness of the methods he teaches.

Good to know.

----------


## Kona

> I 
> 
> have vigorously defended Nick Newport and his work to the hilt.
> 
> And I will continue to do so on this thread (which is about his 102) and on the other thread (which is about his 101).
> 
> Other than that, I have to respond to personal taunts by Aquanina, and Raspberry, and Billy, and U.



hey! i was joking around!

----------


## Kona

> Yup, Mzzkc
> 
> Like I'd be be awake grieving early hours of the morn about a cat I murder 30 years ago. My old phone called out "new message" and I opened the lint email to find that Nick just posted on saltcube about a cat. Still in tears about my old, secret crime, I post on salt cube what just happened.
> 
> Another time I went down to my sacred beach to begin my remotely viewing/mutual dream thingy. My legs are killing me. I lean on a memorial rock to pluck up the courage to walk to the end of the Henley Beach Jetty. I walk the Jetty holding on to the rail for support.
> 
> I nearly make it to the end and back but sit on a bench to rub my painful calfs. 
> 
> A young South Korean man walks up to me, holding a fishing rod, His name is Moon Hee. In broken English he says he is does traditional massage. He can help me. He wants my permission to treat my pain.
> ...



what.are.you. TALKING ABOUT

i think we all need to RC when reading debra's posts

----------


## EbbTide000

Billy

What's RC?

----------


## Maria92

> Billy
> 
> What's RC?



 :Picard face palm:  

@ wall of text: If you know enough people for long enough and interact with them often enough, then yeah, you're gonna find some subtle similarities between their dreams and your waking life. But there's no reason to think that whoever you're "syncing" with is beyond criticism. Newport may mean well, but as we've demonstrated, his information in the field of lucid dreaming is incomplete and at times inaccurate. There is nothing special (and certainly nothing worth paying money for) in his tutorials.

----------


## EbbTide000

You guys

Are like some boring broken record. One which plays ok for a while then gets caught in a loop when it comes to a scratch.

Like listening to an old parrot whose entire repetour is:

Polly wants a cracker
Polly wants a cracker
Polly wants a cracker
Adinfinitum.

----------


## Maria92

Responding with valid counter-arguments is apparently not an option for you.

----------


## EbbTide000

I want to sync-up and have some fun.

I don't like arguing cos I'm no good at it.

In my outer-life I am friendly with boring people. I live in a 17 room boarding house and folks are ok. 

There is amazing potential for spectacular fun in remote viewing/mutual dreaming/synking. 

I am not that interested in dreaming or lucid dreaming or out of body experiencers. To me they are lonely, boring and unverifyable.

Participants, Focussing on the Mandala to remote view and/or teleport, then posting, has lead to me going to where that Mandala is anchored and photographing what the participant saw in their dream.

Also it was noticed that when there was more than one participant (on saltcube) focussing on Nick Newport's cardboard box or EyeOneBlack's star, participants would dream each others dreams.

This stuff is heaps more interesting to me than endless argument.

This stuff is heaps more interesting to me than lonly, boring, ordinary, unverifyable, lucid dreaming and obeing.

----------


## Hukif

Except LDing is verifiable, not boring, not ordinary and not lonely. You must be doing it wrong <.<
Especially since you can do the stuff you want to do through LDing lol

----------


## EbbTide000

Your definition of verifiable is different to mine.

----------


## Hukif

Uh, if you want to change the definition sure, but it should be around the same for everyone. Now if you please stop insulting LDing just because you can't effectivelly use it for the sake of your own experiments, I would be happy.

----------


## Maria92

> Your definition of verifiable is different to mine.



They can't be all that different if you've "verified" remote dreaming, syncing, and remote viewing.

----------


## EbbTide000

Umm, Ok Hukif

I was typing out a note in the note section of this phone. I adjust about to copy and paste it into a post here when you post popped into my email box when I reread it, it was "insulting" lucid dreaming. So, I deleted it. I don't really want to antagonise you lucid dreamers.

Umm, ummmmmmh I just don't know how to encourage you people to give that Mandala a whirl.

----------


## EbbTide000

Umm, Ok Hukif

I was typing out a note in the note section of this phone. I adjust about to copy and paste it into a post here when you post popped into my email box when I reread it, it was "insulting" lucid dreaming. So, I deleted it. I don't really want to antagonise you lucid dreamers.

Umm, ummmmmmh I just don't know how to encourage you people to give that Mandala a whirl.

----------


## Raspberry

I must ask, Debrajane, why you are registered on a lucid dreaming forum if you don't like lucid dreaming.

I don't understand how you don't like it, you're basically being god and able to fulfill your dreams (no pun intended) without taking time out. How many people do you know who, for example, battled a giant werewolf with the help of googly eyed pandas last night, on a different planet? And still got up, completely unharmed, and went to work the next day. Probably with a skip in their step from how much fun they had.

Also, if you do not like lucid dreams, why did you buy nick newport's "methods" and defend them. Especially if they have not worked when you consistantly used them.

----------


## USA

Wow I never knew they were fake, I thought he was just very smart on the subject. It makes sense though because I've never seen or heard this information before. Yeah you're right the mind and body are obviously connected with each other.

----------


## EbbTide000

Basically, Raspberry

I want to go home.

I had a very bad first 9 years of life. 

First, age 6, I tried to kill the one who was making me so miserable. I'm proud of that cos at 45 I heard that some, only revert to suicide, if they can't remove the source of their intense suffering. As a tortured infant my natural survival instincts liked in and I put cleaning fluid in dads cupa. But he spat in out, giving me the weirdest look and tried to convince mum in bed beside him, that I had tried to pioson him.

Mum said, "your mad Ron".

But I had.

 A year later I tried to go home (die). And again at 9. Fortunately I failed and no one found out.

At 10 we ran away from dad and mum got interested in astral travel through Lobsang Rampa books. Lobsang Rampa wrote a whole book about what happens if one completes suicide. As a result I gave up the idea of suicide.

Since then I have wanted to get home while alive so if there is life after death I can stay there and never come back to this place of massive suffering.

Nick's stuff is a whole lot like Lobsang Rampa.

A dream lead me to saltcube.

My focus is not the same as others.

I just wanna go home, nothing else.

----------


## Hukif

But I'm already trying stuff similar to what you propose, through LDing. Also, if your goal is to travel over to another world, I still would advice LDing as a practice to the "greater discovery" or however you want to call it.

----------


## saltyseedog

Yes dreams are the best way to access what you call home. I've wanted to kill myself for a long time too, but lucid dreaming has kept me from doing it. The comparison from the amount of unconditonal love of the worlds I visit to the dark hatefuil world we live in is black and white. I wake up feeling incredibly peaceful and feeling loved most of time (depending on what happened that night) to a dark world. But without I don't think I could stand staying here anylonger in conditions I live in.

I can take you home if you want. But you have to remember!!!!!!!

----------


## Maria92

> Wow I never knew they were fake, I thought he was just very smart on the subject. It makes sense though because I've never seen or heard this information before. Yeah you're right the mind and body are obviously connected with each other.



Unrelated to conversation, but FUCK YEAH, OHIO STATE! Go Buckeyes!

----------


## EbbTide000

Saltyseedog

We are only feeling

Mmm

Thank you.

----------


## USA

> Unrelated to conversation, but FUCK YEAH, OHIO STATE! Go Buckeyes!



Lol, yeah OSU rocks no doubt!

----------


## Kona



----------


## Kona

Am i the only one here that thinks this should be moved to the senseless banter section?

----------


## EbbTide000

> Am i the only one here that thinks this should be moved to the senseless banter section?



i HATE this place

----------


## USA

Debrajane, do you have some problem with us happy lucid dreamers having a discussion?

----------


## EbbTide000

> Debrajane, do you have some problem with us happy lucid dreamers having a discussion?



Not at all USA

I am 51 and on the pension with the diagnosis of Dissociative Identity Disorder and when stressed they tell me I become 3 different people. But I dont get missing time like 80% of Multiple Personalities people. Im among the 10% of sufferers that get imaginative reconstruction.  

That means instead of getting missing time my brain has a guess at what might have happened while "I" was absent (and another me was taking care of my life).

You guys stress me with your taunts but I got to learn to live with that so I thought I'd better be upfront with you so you don't get toooo confused and think I am insane ... or something. (hehehehahaha)

----------


## EbbTide000

> What is merging?
> 
> If you think it's too "out there" but still want to talk about it, I recommend the deep dreaming section



Raspberry

I can't find The Deep Dreaming Section. Please put in the link to the deep dreaming section. 

or anyone else who knows where it is please put in the link so I can start reaking it please.

----------


## Maria92

I think you have to apply to the mods to get access to DD. Try PMing Slash or someone.

----------


## Hukif

Go to beyond dreaming, then look at the sticky that says "Deep dreaming" and then apply by PMing an admin/mod.
Also, don't want this moved to SB, this is supposed to tell people about the mis-information in the 101 videos.
Oh and, I want all of that hate, it is MINE!

----------


## EbbTide000

> I think you have to apply to the mods to get access to DD. Try PMing Slash or someone.



I don't like being trapped in some dark, deep, eerie, cave just to be involved in light fun friendly synchronistic deep dreaming work. 

I was told by a witch that Adelaide is known as the city of churches but secretly it is the city of covens. She said, "you take a vow when you are accepted into a coven, here in Adelaide,  that "they" will kill you if you leave". She said, "I will need to trust you more before I teach you".

Needless to say I never joined.

I like keeping my stuff above board, open and free.  If that means putting up with taunts and crap ... well ... it is worth it to keep the best of dreaming open to other folk like me.

That mandala IS a piece of inner world technology.

Get you butts over to my synchronicity thread and use it.

----------


## Hukif

Already do... but more importantly than that, DD is to weed out people who don't believe in such things, so that nobody will yell at you, more than the "Don't you dare talk about..." thingy you just described. Actually, any more posts, would you mind using the PM feature to a DG or someone in the thread please? This is getting way too off-topic.

----------


## Raspberry

Agreed, Hukif. But first:

Deep dreaming isn't a dark eerie cave that's some sort of cult. It's just so that people who make threads that others would write off as weird/impossible such as shared dreaming.

You say it will keep things open to folk like you. Most likely they will have joined deep dreaming then and will see the thread.

Debrajane, you make it sound as if we're sending you death threats. This is a discussion thread. Obviously there are going to be opposing views which is going to create debate and arguement. As I said before, no one is personally insulting you. We're stating our opinion. If this thread is creating _stress_ for you, then, putting it frankly, maybe you shouldn't be here. I don't say this to kick you out of the thread, but just thinking of your general health. If you really do hate this place, why keep coming back? Just curious.

 I noticed that this is pretty much the only thread you post in. If you want nice, calm threads where you can just have banter and state your opinion, then that's what the majority of DV is. Maybe you should take more of a look around.

----------


## EbbTide000

Ok

I just found out that I can delete my posts here at Dream Views

So

some poor soul's believe that I am cyber stalking them. I am not but they don't believe that.

So I told them that I would delete all the threads and posts, that I am able to (where the sites let me) and I am staying of the net except for my Flickr phote stream.

So tomorrow I will come back to this Internet Cafe and delete my 149 posts off Dream Views.

I dont want to add to that poor souls fear. I have no qualms about deleting everything of mine off the net and sticking only to my Flickr account if it will help calm down some one's fears.

----------


## saltyseedog

So you didn't remember that dream did you..... We were flying above the dream body of earth. Then I teleported us to a city on earth. There were souls flying around with wings, we were in a futuristic looking city. There were hover cars flying around and floating round buildings in the sky. Then I teleported us again to a place. we were on the top of a grassy hill. There were beautiful grassy hills as far as the eye could see with widely spaced trees and an over cast sky. The energy of this place was very peaceful and unconditionally loving. We saw a white man and a black man dressed in brown robes walking up the hill towards us. When they reached us the black man said Hello who are you? in an african sounding accent. I said I am John, a dream warrior, who are you? He said I am sa-ool (don't know how to spell that) You said I am Debra, where are we? I said we are on the dream body of earth, this is where you go after you die, after you are spit out of infinity. You said oh my god. This place feels... feels... I don't know how to descibe it, its just amazing. I said well you can come here whenever you. You are strong enough now, now that I have taken you here once you can come again, in your dreams. You said I can?! How can I come here? I want to stay here and never come back! I don't want to go back there, it hurts... please just let me stay here... I don't want to go back, I hate that place. I never want to go back... Fuck it! There was along period of silence...... John, why did you bring me here? Why would you bring me here and make me go back to earth? I said well you don't have to go back to earth, but you came here (physical earth) for a reason. Things are changing, they are changing fast. You want to be here for that. It will get better. You said they will? When will they get better? I don't want to don't want to sit around for the rest of my lifetime waiting for things to get better. I said well it will take a little while, but things will get much better. You be able to be with the people you love and not be miserable. It will be ok.... I give you a hug and hold you for about a minute. Then I wake up.

----------


## EbbTide000

Dear Salty

but we did synchronize.

You wrote:

"So you didn't remember that dream did you..... 

***We were flying above the dream body of earth.***

Then I teleported us to a city on earth. There were souls flying around with wings, we were in a futuristic looking city. There were hover cars flying around and floating round buildings in the sky. Then I teleported us again to a place. we were on the top of a grassy hill. There were beautiful grassy hills as far as the eye could see with widely spaced trees and an over cast sky. The energy of this place was very peaceful and unconditionally loving. We saw a white man and a black man dressed in brown robes walking up the hill towards us. When they reached us the black man said Hello who are you? in an african sounding accent. 

***I said I am John, a dream warrior,***

 who are you? He said I am sa-ool (don't know how to spell that) You said I am Debra, where are we? I said we are on the dream body of earth, this is where you go after you die, after you are spit out of infinity. You said oh my god. This place feels... feels... I don't know how to descibe it, its just amazing. I said well you can come here whenever you. You are strong enough now, now that I have taken you here once you can come again, in your dreams. You said I can?! How can I come here? I want to stay here and never come back! I don't want to go back there, it hurts... please just let me stay here... I don't want to go back, I hate that place. I never want to go back... Fuck it! There was along period of silence...... John, why did you bring me here? Why would you bring me here and make me go back to earth? I said well you don't have to go back to earth, but you came here (physical earth) for a reason. Things are changing, they are changing fast. You want to be here for that. It will get better. You said they will? When will they get better? I don't want to don't want to sit around for the rest of my lifetime waiting for things to get better. I said well it will take a little while, but things will get much better. You be able to be with the people you love and not be miserable. It will be ok.... I give you a hug and hold you for about a minute. Then I wake up."

 Synchronicity

Yesterday, I looked up General Hanuman. I put "Hanuman" into the YouTube search-bar and watched a 9 minute clip called 

"HANUMAN CHAISE - with English subtitles"

I watched it several times.

The reason, I thought, I was watching it was because long ago I told "He who must not be named" (the boyfriend of the woman who is going to the Australian authorities about me allegedly "cyber stalking), well I called her boyfriend:

"An inanely chattering, poo chucking monkey"

Later after several sleeps I realised that TsunaH was a very advanced dreamer who was now specializing.

He is specializing in "protection".

He is becoming like "General HANUMAN". The greatest dream warrior there is.

In this clip "Hanuman" does a lot of FLYING.

Oh,

General HANUMAN is the Monkey God.						


						Last edited by saltyseedog; Today at 08:22 PM.

----------


## EbbTide000

Hi DrWho

About a year ago, At 6:52 am 

on 19-March-02010 

some one with the handle drwho popped up on saltcube and wrote:

*** Sadly this forum seems to be over run by crystal, reiki and psychic loonies which detracts from what I thought was the aim of the site, namely to investigate and explore the world of lucid dreaming. 

Lucid dreaming is a scientific fact and deserves proper investigation and discussion, like the majority of the posts over at Dreamviews. I'm done with this forum until there is a purge of the numbnuts and their looney tunes. 

Have fun... ***

I, debraJane replied:

*** hello DrWho 

DreamViews sounds good. Give us the link.

Then I (debraJane) posted

*** Hi again DrWho 

I like and have now registered at 

www.dreamviews.com 

I have given a lot of thought to what you said above. I first began trying to astral travel 40 years ago. I had lots a interesting re-entry experiences but only one true OBE 16 years ago. And I have had, now, 2 proper Lucid dreams. 

I have been at this for so, so, long that I am willing to try almost anything, including crystal, reiki and psychic lunacy. 

I think that where the strength in crystal, reiki and psychic lunacy is, is in the brains love of patterns and stories. 

Give the brain a long interwoven pattern or story then supercharge that story with belief (or strong make believe) then watch the brain come alive and connect the dots for you. 

I know how powerful this is because in my 50 years of life I have sincerely held several belief systems. I have been a serial monogamist when it comes to belief systems. As in, I would relinquish a previous believe system when I chose another and then sincerely practiced that belief system till it, kind of, went exhaust on me. 

The stories and myths of each belief system led to extraordinary experiences. Each belief system led to deep disappointment also. But disappointment is a powerful spiritual catalyst to me once it lifts. 

You may see the mythical attributes of crystals as lunacy (and you may be right) but I will enter this lunacy to see where it leads and see how it affects my dream life. Ummm, that is, if people join me in this journey. ***

Well DrWho 

This Numbnut, and her Loony Tune has purged all of her posts off Saltcube. All 1,740 posts by me at saltcube and all my pictures are gone, (before I leave Netzone Internet Café today.).

 :The silent type:  :Cheeky:

----------


## Maria92

What the facepalm? You left saltcube, home to what you love and adore, to come here, to what you perceive as a hostile environment, amidst people who don't understand you, in pursuit of topics that deal with a comparatively small part of the forum, and generally greeted with hostility from the largely atheist community? Hunh?

----------


## EbbTide000

TsunaH

Years ago when you welcomed me onto your Yahoogroups site call a “journey in many ways” I told you that I liked your “Something Else” Youtube. 

In the comments on that YouTube I said something like, “U R like a battered Shaman who has gone to hell and back, several times, to do tasks for folk that maybe only the “he” “U” could do. 

To nearly every communication I had with you in, “A Journey In Many Ways” and your YouTube site and finally at IASD’s main forum, U R mean, mean, mean. 

The last couple of days I thought that this might be happening when I “merge” with mean folk like you TsunaH.

I hook up in dreams and merge with U.

In this present incarnation U are tooooo mean. But I don’t accept that. 

And

I push into folk’s future and find them (U) in their future Buddha State. 

Then only relate to them from that perspective.

What will be, IS, and always has been.

To Me, TsunaH

You are not 

“An inanely chattering, poo chucking monkey” 

You are the mighty “Dream Warrior”

“Shaman”

“Hanuman”

In this YouTube clip

Like, U R “Something Else”
YouTube - Hanuman
Hanuman flies off to the Himalayas in search of Sanjivini, the medicinal flower that can heal the seriously wounded Lakshman and Jambavan. Summoning forth awesome power, he brings back an entire mountain.

----------


## nina

This has surpassed ridiculousness.

----------

