# Sleep and Dreams > Research >  >  I may have found the Key to Lucid Dreams: Ground breaking Research

## I H8 Reality

But before I can explain how to have Lucid Dreams at will you will need to understand the Neurobiological causes for the loss of consciousness associated with dreams.

According to Allan Hobson the differences between the self-awareness, working memory and executive functions, and consciousness experienced in waking life and its loss in dreaming can be explained by deactivation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex during REM sleep (The Prefrontal Cortex in Sleep, 2002).



The Dorsolateral Prefrontal Cortex (DLPFC) is responsible for executive functions and working memory. As a consequence of deactivation of the DLPFC during sleep, executive functions such as self-consciousness and analytical thought are severely impaired during dreams. (The Prefrontal Cortex in Sleep, 2002).

In his book The Dream Drugstore(2001-pg 97) Allan Hobson proposed that lucid dreaming is the result of DLPFC activation during REM sleep, and that working memory resides in the DLPFC which is deactivated during sleep and results in the bizarreness and mute executive functions associated with dreams.

So without wasting anymore of your time let me explain how it might be possible to have Lucid Dreams at will.

As stated earlier Allan Hobson proposed that lucid dreaming is the result of DLPFC activation during REM sleep. There are currently two main forms of non-invasive brain stimulation, there is Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (tMS) and Transcranial Direct Current Stimulation (tDCS). However I will focus on tDCS because it is much safer, more versatile, and a lot less expensive than tMS as well as being more appropriate for our purposes.

Transcranial Direct Current Stimulation (tDCS) is a form of non-invasive brain stimulation. tDCS is the application of weak electrical currents (1-2 mA) to modulate the activity of neurons in the brain.

tDCS It is extremely safe, with no reported cases of any major negative effects. It is also important to distinguish tDCS from electroconvulsive therapy, which is used to treat mental illnesses such as major depression by passing pulses of approximately 1 ampere into the brain in order to provoke an epileptic seizure.

The materials used are very cheap and can be found at your local radio shack. 

All that is requires is:                                                                       

 - 9v Battery
 - two wires (one anode, one cathode)
 - 2 wet saline sponges (for the area to be activated)

 



Here is a video demonstrating how its applied.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp6bBs16g28

Here is a link to a company that sells tDCS. 

http://www.magstim.com/magstimdcstimulator.html

tDCS is used on people with depression, Parkinson, as well as strokes and many other conditions. It has also been able used to increase working memory(Fregni et al., 2005) reduce risk taking behavior (Fecteau et al.,2007) as well as increase word pair retention (Marshall et al.,2004) when placed over the DLPFC. However it can be used on any lateral part of the brain to induce excitability in the brain region being targeted.

*I propose that by using tDCS over the DLPFC during REM sleep, that the DLPFC will be activated and induce a Lucid Dream.*

I've already discussed this proposal with Allan Hobson, and he has already put it on his list of research studies.







Here are some links to my research:

The prefrontal cortex in sleep 2002
_Muzur A, Pace-Schott EF, Hobson JA._

Dreaming: a neuroimaging view 2005
_T. T. Dang-Vua, b, 1, M. Desseillesa, c, 1, G. Albouya, A. Darsauda, 1, S. Gaisa, G. Rauchsa, 1, M. Schabusa, V. Sterpenicha, 1, G. Vandewallea, 1, S. Schwartzd, 1, P. Maqueta, b, 1_

Functional neuroanatomy of altered states of consciousness: The transient hypofrontality hypothesis 2002
_Arne Dietrich_

Anodal transcranial direct current stimulation of prefrontal cortex enhances working memory.
_Fregni F, Boggio PS, Nitsche M, Bermpohl F, Antal A, Feredoes E, Marcolin MA, Rigonatti SP, Silva MT, Paulus W, Pascual-Leone A._

The use of tDCS and CVS as methods of non-invasive brain stimulation 
_Gregory Beena, Trung T. Ngoa, b, Steven M. Millera, b and Paul B. Fitzgeralda_

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## Silverwing

Interesting. So is this just an hypothesis? Are you going to test it? Or are you just putting it out there for us to test? I for one will not be shocking my brain to try and induce a lucid dream unless you can show me statistically that it will work more often than not. Interesting idea none the less, and thank you for your research efforts.

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## I H8 Reality

> Interesting. So is this just an hypothesis? Are you going to test it? Or are you just putting it out there for us to test? I for one will not be shocking my brain to try and induce a lucid dream unless you can show me statistically that it will work more often than not. Interesting idea none the less, and thank you for your research efforts.



I either have to build the tDCS myself or buy one. Problem is most companies that sell it require you to have some medical degree to buy it.

Heres a video of some guy that built one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SymQqZYiVyA

I will build one soon. Im extremely optimistic that this will work.

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## Silverwing

Well be sure to keep us posted on your results. It looks easy enough to build, and if it works as you believe it will, then many kudos to you  :smiley: 

Do you propose though, that you go to sleep with the sponges attached to your head, so that the current is applied during REM sleep? I think it will be tough to make an REM sensor... I also think it will be tough to fall asleep with a damp sponge attached to my head  :tongue2:

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## I H8 Reality

> Well be sure to keep us posted on your results. It looks easy enough to build, and if it works as you believe it will, then many kudos to you 
> 
> Do you propose though, that you go to sleep with the sponges attached to your head, so that the current is applied during REM sleep? I think it will be tough to make an REM sensor... I also think it will be tough to fall asleep with a damp sponge attached to my head



I will try it during WBTB at first, because from the research that I've read so far the effects of tDCS can last for hours after being used.

So I'll wake up during the night, apply the electrodes over by left and  right DLPFC, turn it on and  keep it on for 30 minutes than go back to sleep. Hopefully I will fall asleep with an active DLPFC which should give me a Lucid Dream.

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## SolvedSnake

This certainly sounds interesting, but I keep training myself to overcome my dreams, instead of some machine stimulating certain areas to produce it. I would feel awful being an effect of a machine, instead of causing them myself.

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## Silverwing

When will you be attempting to build this little device, I_H8_Reality?

It sounds very interesting and Id be really curious to know how it works for you.

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## I H8 Reality

I need to purchase the parts first

I need a 9v battery

Two wires one (one for the anode and one for the cathode)

I also need two wet sponges (one for the anode and one for the cathode) 

Im not to good with electronics but i think i need to add some resistors so that i can get 1-2 mA.

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## DrTechnical

I can't speak to this particular method, as it sounds like your plan is to stimulate that particular region of the brain by focusing a micro current across that particular region.

As you probably know, CES devices typically leverage small clips on the ear lobes. Most commercial devices focus on bi-phasic signals with modulations in the 0.5 - 3 Hz range. This has been proven to be effective for depression, insomnia, etc ...

I personally have done several years of research in this area. The general idea is quite valid, though my swipe at the problem is different than yours. I recently applied for a US patent on the idea. I believe it to be quite original. I've pretty openly discussed this invention on a certain other LD web site. Thus far, 5 experienced lucid dreamers have tried the technology. One has had less than great results. The others have had very strong results, on the order of a galantamine type response.

Like I said though, my approach is different than yours. One thing you will want to think about is the carrier, duty cycle and modulation associated with your signal. Just because 0.5 - 3 Hz is good for depression, does not mean it will have a positive result stimulating the area in question.

If you want some good journal articles on CES, especially in relation to brain wave modification measured via EEG's and so forth, check out the alpha-stim web site.

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## I H8 Reality

> I can't speak to this particular method, as it sounds like your plan is to stimulate that particular region of the brain by focusing a micro current across that particular region.
> 
> As you probably know, CES devices typically leverage small clips on the ear lobes. Most commercial devices focus on bi-phasic signals with modulations in the 0.5 - 3 Hz range. This has been proven to be effective for depression, insomnia, etc ...
> 
> I personally have done several years of research in this area. The general idea is quite valid, though my swipe at the problem is different than yours. I recently applied for a US patent on the idea. I believe it to be quite original. I've pretty openly discussed this invention on a certain other LD web site. Thus far, 5 experienced lucid dreamers have tried the technology. One has had less than great results. The others have had very strong results, on the order of a galantamine type response.
> 
> Like I said though, my approach is different than yours. One thing you will want to think about is the carrier, duty cycle and modulation associated with your signal. Just because 0.5 - 3 Hz is good for depression, does not mean it will have a positive result stimulating the area in question.
> 
> If you want some good journal articles on CES, especially in relation to brain wave modification measured via EEG's and so forth, check out the alpha-stim web site.



_Research demonstrates that CES produces a mild stimulation in the hypothalamic area of the brain, resulting in balancing neurotransmitter activity (in particular Beta Endorphin and Norepinephrine). The effects achieved are similar to that of a "jogger's high". 

During CES, an electric current is focused upon the hypothalamic region; during this process, CES electrodes are placed behind the ear at the mastoid, or clipped to the upper portion of the earlobe, near to the face."_

Interesting, but I think CES does not stimulate all part of the brain especially the lateral parts. Im only focused on activating the DLPFC which has been proven to be deactivated during sleep/dreams and is responsible for the loss self-awarness, consciousness, executive functions etc. associated with dreams

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## DrTechnical

Yes, I agree. Your approach is different.

As I said though, this is an area ripe for exploration. I can lucid dream pretty easy so take it with a bit of a grain of salt. But if memory serves, I'm around 48/51 using CES to induce lucid dreams. That's on par w/ Galantamine/choline which also gives me about a 95&#37; success rate. The great advantage is that these techniques appear to be completely independent. This leads to certain obvious advantages.

I'll shoot you a PM on where to find the existing posted discussion thread.

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## I H8 Reality

> Yes, I agree. Your approach is different.
> 
> As I said though, this is an area ripe for exploration. I can lucid dream pretty easy so take it with a bit of a grain of salt. But if memory serves, I'm around 48/51 using CES to induce lucid dreams. That's on par w/ Galantamine/choline which also gives me about a 95% success rate. The great advantage is that these techniques appear to be completely independent. This leads to certain obvious advantages.
> 
> I'll shoot you a PM on where to find the existing posted discussion thread.



Do you use the CES while your asleep or during WBTB and then going to sleep?

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## DrTechnical

I have had success in both cases, though the optimal protocol with my signal favors one of the cases you mentioned. In fact, using it before bed seems to potentiate AcH boosting supps.

But as you said, your method is quite different. So it is tricky to say how my method and protocol would map to your particular goal. You will want to do a lot of different experimentation. It took about 2 years for me to fine tune my method. I suspect it will take a similar effort on your part. You are also going to want a programmable device which can do a range of signal types.

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## A dreamer168

> I have had success in both cases, though the optimal protocol with my signal favors one of the cases you mentioned. In fact, using it before bed seems to potentiate AcH boosting supps.
> 
> But as you said, your method is quite different. So it is tricky to say how my method and protocol would map to your particular goal. You will want to do a lot of different experimentation. It took about 2 years for me to fine tune my method. I suspect it will take a similar effort on your part. You are also going to want a programmable device which can do a range of signal types.



I think I will test this, but instead of producing the effects externally, I will try ti stimulate that area mentally

I am prepared for the flack I will get regarding this post

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## I H8 Reality

I tried it last night for the first time and had 2 lucid dreams.

However im not sure if it was a placebo effect, because i was really excited and kept thinking about the TDCS as i was going to sleep.

I'll try it again tonight

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## Licity

> I tried it last night for the first time and had 2 lucid dreams.
> 
> However im not sure if it was a placebo effect, because i was really excited and kept thinking about the TDCS as i was going to sleep.
> 
> I'll try it again tonight



Any updates on this? This is a really interesting project...

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## marcc

> Any updates on this? This is a really interesting project...



QFT!



So all you're saying is, I need two salinized sponges, a 9v battery and wire?

i have all those things pretty much in the room I'm in!

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## Licity

> QFT!
> 
> 
> 
> So all you're saying is, I need two salinized sponges, a 9v battery and wire?
> 
> i have all those things pretty much in the room I'm in!



I think you might need a resistor or two, unless you want stinging sensations and burns like the guy in the video

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## marcc

> I think you might need a resistor or two, unless you want stinging sensations and burns like the guy in the video



yeah probably. at least it's only 2mA. >10mA to the heart is fatal.

to the brain, who knows. although, i'd probably like the 2.5mA version for the extra 'oomph'

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## Licity

> yeah probably. at least it's only 2mA. >10mA to the heart is fatal.
> 
> to the brain, who knows. although, i'd probably like the 2.5mA version for the extra 'oomph'



I think 1 mA is all that's needed for our purposes, but I don't know how much resistance the skull and skin provide.

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## marcc

OK, easy; 1.5v battery with a resistance of 1500 ohms = 1mA.
if this is sufficient, this is where the current limit should be placed.

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## marcc

bump, 1 and a half months later.

this shows promise.

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## Noogah

I'm excited about this! Can anyone give a few detailed, and somewhat less confusing instructions? I might test it. 

Also, I wanna make sure that I H8 reality didn't burn his brains out, which is why he hasn't posted here in over a month.  :wink2:

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## Dizko

Careful guys.

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## louie54

Interesting read. I remember hearing about something like this in my psychology class. A more-painful shock treatment still used today to treat depression and such but only as a last resort after psychotherapy and prescriptions fail.

I'm interested in hearing more about this. I've been wondering how exactly are we not lucid in all our dreams and not just facts but a scientific explanation. You made it easy for me.

I'm looking foward to more results on this. Have you figured a way to beat the placebo? I would suggest have a friend try it and not let him know it is suppose to induce lucid dreaming but then again we would probably wonder why.

Thanks  :smiley:

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## I H8 Reality

> I'm excited about this! Can anyone give a few detailed, and somewhat less confusing instructions? I might test it. 
> 
> Also, I wanna make sure that I H8 reality didn't burn his brains out, which is why he hasn't posted here in over a month.



Dont worry im still alive and well.

I made a small but crucial mistake in my research. It turns out that tDCS is neuromodulation and not neurostimulation.

The key difference is that neuromodulation increases activity in the part of the brain targeted but only when that part of that brain is already active (baseline)

Because the DLPFC is deactivated during dreams, tDCS will have little if any effects on the DLPFC.

However the good news is that my theory is still valid. Although instead of using tDCS using tMS (transcranial magnetic stimulation) should do the job since it is both neurostimulation and neuromodultatoy.

A tMS machine will be able to activate(stimulate) any lateral part of the brain regardless of whether it is active or not.

A key issue remains is that i dont have access to a tMS  :Uhm:

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## marcc

> The key difference is that neuromodulation increases activity in the part of the brain targeted but only when that part of that brain is already active (baseline)
> 
> Because the DLPFC is deactivated during dreams, tDCS will have little if any effects on the DLPFC.
> 
> However the good news is that my theory is still valid.



In other words, you'd have the perfect WILD?

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## Denny22

Is there an update on this, I H8 Reality? 

I ask because I find it extremely interesting. If this is true then technically, yes, the perfect lucid dream induction device will have been created by accident. Did Allan Hobson give you an update on his findings too?

Anyway, I know things can slip away and time passes by so no worries if it hasn't go forward.  :smiley:

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## Jamal

Very interesting stuff.

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## elucid

This is very interesting but I wonder if you get used to this method of activation and then you stop it, will you be "trained" for lucid dreaming or is this like a "drug" that you have to keep doing to lucid dream? If that is the case, then I am not liking it that much as I am more interested in being able to lucid at will by my own self and not with the help of a stimulation. 

This is how reality checks in the waking life method works, except without the use of a device. Basically, you just train that part of your brain that questions reality and soon you will become very good at it to the point of becoming lucid in every dream. I think that is a much better method compared to using an electric device to induce lucid dreaming. Of course if this device trains that part of your brain and has the effect even if you dont use it, then I see this as having potential.

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## TechDreamer

"The materials used are very cheap and can be found at your local radio shack. "

Famous last words... ::D:  ::D:  ::D: 

Interesting, interesting stuff! I'll give it a try, and get to radioshack!

In the pics you do not have a 9v batt, but a steady source of current I assume? Are the results better with this power source??

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## Lucid_Guy.exe

bump-Interesting read.  Sounds like a new lucid inducind technique!

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## Mike02

Bump again

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## findmucked

yeah i wonder what happened. lol

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## louie54

Remember guys, as mentioned already, it turns out that the machine he made doesn't reactivate anything. It only increases activity in what is already active.

The only thing he may get out of this neuromodulation device is if he is already lucid. My hypothesis would be if he is lucid while this device is active, he will probably increase lucidity times like 10. However, in a non-lucid, using this, you may just get a placebo or just a random DILD. Maybe even a WILD because I can't imagine falling asleep with a wet sponge wired to my head.

Using a neurostimulation device, will probably activate anything, but apparently, he doesn't have one.

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