# Sleep and Dreams > Research >  >  Menthol as a Dream Enhancer

## Alyzarin

It has recently occurred to me that menthol might actually be a powerful dream enhancer and potential lucid aid, if used correctly. In order to test this out, I've decided to keep this research log. Since menthol is ridiculously easy to obtain for just about anyone, in the form of cough drops, essential oils, or possibly even pure crystals, you should feel free to post here if you give it a shot to contribute. But if not, that's fine too. I'll be giving a summary of why I think menthol can be so useful, followed by some past evidence and my first experience with it so far. Further experiences will be listed in successive posts.

03-18-2013 Update: Hey guys! I just wanted to add something here since this thread seems to be getting a lot of activity lately. Keep in mind that my theory here about how the way menthol works was just my first big one, but we've found out a lot more about it since I made this post and come up with lots of new (possibly coexistent) theories, and the picture just seems to be getting bigger so don't just take anything as fact yet! We've still got a lot to discover so just keep an open mind and consider the angles.  :smiley:  If you want to see more of the theories you can either read through the thread or just come to the end and see what we're focusing on at th/e moment, it's generally the most up to date anyway. That's all for now!

Click on a list item to jump to that section.

*Why I Think It Works*
Melanopsin, Melatonin, and the D2 Receptor: Deactivating the Pineal GlandPhenethylamine and the CB1 Receptor: Finding the Missing LinkThe Kappa-Opioid Receptor and the Menthol Connection*Dream Experiences*
The InspirationMy First Experience

*Why I Think It Works*

Excuse me if I get a little technical here, but I'm going to try to give a good description of just exactly why I think menthol is effective at enhancing dreams. Most of this is actually documented, and some of it is hypothesizing based on those documents. Feel free to criticize, ask for references, or add comments to anything I have to say here.

*Melanopsin, Melatonin, and the D2 Receptor: Deactivating the Pineal Gland*

I'll start with a description of each of these. *Melanopsin* is "a photopigment found in specialized photosensitive ganglion cells of the retina that are involved in the regulation of circadian rhythms, pupillary light reflex, and other non-visual responses to light." (Wikipedia) Essentially, melanopsin responds to light, and the more melanopsin you have the more light you perceive. *Melatonin*, which most people here are probably already familiar with, is a hormone that is one of the core chemicals produced by the pineal gland to regulate the light-dark cycle and the difference between REM and NREM sleep. Melatonin production is suppressed during the light and enhanced during the dark, and melatonin is correlated with NREM. It is also known that melatonin receptor agonists, like melatonin, inhibit the effects of 5-HT2A agonists, which enhance REM sleep. For this reason, I believe it's actually deactivating the pineal gland that promotes dreams and dream-like experiences, not activating it as many people seem to believe. (Not that I believe they're working towards the wrong sensations and the like through meditation, they're just calling it the wrong thing.) Melanopsin responds most strongly to blue light, and therefore, melatonin is suppressed most strongly from blue light. The *D2 receptor* is a G protein-coupled receptor in the brain, and other parts of the body, that responds to dopamine and other endogenous and exogenous ligands. D2 mutations have been associated with mental diseases such as schizophrenia, and many drugs which activate D2 can create dream-like experiences while awake, while the dream-like experiences of hallucinogens that work through separate mechanisms (e.g., psychedelics, which work through 5-HT2A receptors) can be reversed by drugs which block activity at D2. Effects commonly associated with D2 activation include rewarding feelings and increased power or energy, enhanced libido, and self-perpetuating anxiety (such as in panic attacks), all of which can be seen in lucid dreams (like lucid nightmares, for the last one). Furthermore, it is known that damage to the dopaminergic areas of the brain can result in a loss of dreaming. With all of this considered, I find it very likely that D2 is a very important mechanism involved in dreams.

Now, how does this all connect? Well, anyone who has researched spiritual/religious experiences or psychedelic drugs enough should be familiar with the "white light experience". If not, then essentially what it is is a perception of light so blindingly bright that it encompasses your entire being. It's often associated with OBEs, NDEs, and high doses of hallucinogens, and can even be experienced in dreams by chance or through meditation. I believe that this white light is part of a balance in the brain, and can be both a cause and effect of upsetting this balance. Aside from the sensory distortions of psychedelics that appear even at low doses, which are not considered true hallucinations, this white light seems to go hand in hand with dreams and dream-like experiences. On an average night your brain will block out this perception of white light as part of the dream process just like it blocks out your normal perception of entering sleep paralysis every night before you start dreaming, but it's still going on in the background. It's this white light that causes melatonin levels to drop to their lowest, inhibiting NREM and allowing REM dreams to form. As I mentioned before, the action of hallucinogens can traced through the D2 receptor, and all of these hallucinogens (especially direct D2 agonists, like salvia) can cause the white light experience. This is because melanopsin-containing ganglion cells express D2 receptors, and activating those receptors thereby increases melanopsin concentrations and inhibits melatonin production.

So there's the idea behind why the D2 receptor is important, which is significant in my explanation of menthol's usefulness. Clearly, activating this receptor is very useful as it directly enhances the mechanism by which dreams are formed. However, dopamine itself, while activating this receptor, also activates other dopamine receptors which promote wakefulness and energy, and overall will be harmful to keeping yourself in a dream. So, how do we go about activating D2 in a more efficient way?

*Phenethylamine and the CB1 Receptor: Finding the Missing Link*

*Phenethylamine* is another endogenous D2 agonist, a trace amine that exists naturally in the brain. Unlike dopamine, its action is much more selective in this respect, working directly on D2. Interestingly, D2 receptors actually act as a kind of flood control, lowering dopamine levels when activated. Since dopamine itself is already activating other receptors when it activates D2 receptors this effect is insignificant, however phenethylamine uses this method to directly block dopaminergic effects in certain areas of the brain, even directly blocking the effects of dopamine reuptake inhibitors like cocaine, while still creating the dream effects of D2. The *CB1 receptor* is another G protein-coupled receptor which responds to endocannabinoids, and drugs like THC (cannabis) and synthetic cannabinoids such as JWH-018 (Spice, K2). It is responsible for the psychoactive effects of these drugs.

It has been known for some time that THC increases endogenous levels of phenethylamine, but it would appear that the mechanism by which this occurs is still elusive. Very little is known about this phenethylamine boost other than the fact that it happens, and it doesn't seem to be a very well-researched subject matter. However, it does seem to be the case, at least. Many drug users in certain experimentalist groups have been testing the effects of pure phenethylamine and found it to produce the same type of psychedelic dissociation produced by cannabinoids, including the potential anxiety effects at high doses, all from D2 activation. The bad thing about this is that phenethylamine alone has effects on the peripheral nervous system which would not exactly be desired for a dream aid, whereas cannabinoids seem to release it only in areas of the brain involved in creating its dream-like effects, but of course, CB1 agonists have other effects as well involved in inhibiting short-term memory, clearly limiting their usefulness as dream aids.

From this point on an amount of guesswork is required, so please keep that in mind as you read. One of the core effects of CB1 agonists, which appears to lend itself to functional selectivity by different agonists, seems to be releasing dynorphins. *Dynorphins* are a class of endogenous opioid peptides that bind to certain receptors in the brain, which I'll go further into in a little bit. They are involved in a large number of processes which includes, most significantly for this discussion, circadian rhythms. They also directly lower the production of dopamine, block the effects of dopamine reuptake inhibitors, cause dysphoria and/or anxiety, and downregulate D2 receptors, while lowering dynorphin levels upregulates D2. This would imply that dynorphins are causing a direct activation of D2, as this relationship is how the brain creates tolerance. If you've read this far then you can probably already see where I'm going with this. Though there doesn't seem to have been any research done on the matter, I find it very likely from all these comparisons that dynorphins stimulate the release of phenethylamine, and that this is how CB1 agonists like THC create their dream-like effects. In fact, mice (or maybe rats, I'd have to pull up the article again) that were lacking in dynorphins were found not to have the anxiety reaction to THC, even though they should have still gotten it from phenethylamine if it was being released through a separate mechanism. So now the important question is, how are dynorphins achieving this?

*The Kappa-Opioid Receptor and the Menthol Connection*

The *kappa-opioid receptor* is the G protein-coupled receptor which binds dynorphins as its endogenous ligands. This makes dynorphins analogous to the mu-opioid receptor's endorphins. Drugs that bind to this receptor are known to cause hallucinations, though the recreationally used drugs that activate it (DXM, salvia) bind to other hallucinogenic receptors as well. Nonetheless, there are lesser known opioids, such as pentazocine, which have a strong kappa-opioid binding affinity in addition to their mu-opioid effects that are known to be self-limiting as analgesics because of their tendency to cause dysphoria/anxiety and hallucinations at high doses. Though dynorphins do have other minor binding affinities, it is very likely, if they really do increase concentrations of phenethylamines, that they do it through this receptor.

Now, the important part: menthol is a kappa-opioid agonist. It is a weak agonist, but an agonist all the same. For all of the enthusiasts out there, let me put a big *DISCLAIMER* here: I am not suggesting in any way, shape, or form that menthol is a viable candidate for recreational use as a hallucinogen. Menthol has other effects aside from its kappa-opioid agonism which may or may not create potentially dangerous side effects at doses that would be required for a full hallucinogenic effect. I am ONLY suggesting that it may be used as an effective dream enhancement aid because the doses required are much smaller and known to be safe. Any recreational abuse of menthol is done at your own risk. Believe me, it doesn't seem like I should have to say that, but I'm sure that I do, and it doesn't hurt to play it safe.

Anyway, the point by now should be clear. Kappa-opioid agonists seem to have fewer memory-limiting effects than cannabinoids, at least from what I've been able to find, and therefore are a better choice for dream enhancement. They surely seem to enhance dreams _and_ recall in a more reliable way than cannabinoids, in any case. Due to the potential release of phenethylamine in only the safe parts of the brain like cannabinoids, they should also increase activity at D2 in the areas of the brain involved in dreaming, increasing melanopsin output and lowering melatonin production. And that is, in summary, why I think it works.

*Dream Experiences*

In this section I'm just going to reference a thread I responded to a few months ago, and add my experience with menthol thus far. This is what's made me consider menthol as an effective dream enhancer.

*The Inspiration*

This thread was a major player in my decision to test menthol out, after I'd looked far enough into its mechanism of action: Does anyone have these really messed up dreams? And what causes them? The thread creator was having intense nightmares and was wondering why, and it turned out that they stopped after they stopped consuming a very large quantity of menthol cough drops every night. This would correlate with strong D2 activation (the dysphoria/anxiety), but could actually be overcome if lucid to make for an intensely vivid dream... though, nightmarish doses are certainly not a requirement. At the time I had suggested to the thread creator that the menthol cough drops may have been causing their nightmares, and it turned out to be correct but I didn't think too much into it at the time because I was focused on other things. Here are just a few excerpts from the thread which highlight its point.





> So, for the past few days I've been having these crazy violent dreams; but they aren't like normal nightmares I've had before, they're just these REALLY intense dreams, where I feel REALLY intense emotion and sensations, and they're like REALLY INTENSELY MESSED UP. And I remember every detail, like they feel totally real except for the strange...ness.
> 
> ...
> 
> But now I'm sick and having them, so maybe I'm just staying a bit more aware or it's because I'm eating so many cough drops or I DUNNO?







> Hahahhhaha yup, cough drops- theyre more like little candies, but I think I've been eating more than I should. Wait, so cough drops actually might  be boosting the vividness??! I actually hope they are the culprit, cuz I could just stop taking them! I haven't had any cough medicine yet though.







> It's really the incredible vividness that was scaring me- sorry if my post was confusing anyone, I'm a bit confusing with organizing my thoughts!
> And! The dreams have stopped, woohoo!! Thanks guys, it was definitely the coughdrops- I later found the package I was eating before had like 8.6mg menthol a piece and I devoured that package within a few hours... xD



I think those quotes speak for themselves here. It certainly sounds like a promising route of exploration just from that alone.

*My First Experience*

Before going to bed last night, at around 10:45 PM, I ingested 18.2 mg of menthol in the form of cough drops. Because menthol has a short half-life, it may actually be better suited for WBTBs. However, it did seem to have an effect, as it did in the above thread. It's possible that increasing the dose enough extends the half-life, or that sufficient enough kappa-opioid receptor activation allows for residual effects to still enhance dreams. This could hold with salvia, which can cause vivid dreams the night after smoking it despite having an extremely short duration of effect. This is from my dream journal entry for today.

DJ Entry - Memory Skips, Fake-Out, Controlling The Professor





> Supplement Dose: 18.2 mg Menthol (Cough Drops)
> 
> Weed was smoked and half a beer was consumed a while before going to bed. This probably had a slightly detrimental effect on my recall, but overall didn't seem to influence my dreams.
> 
> *#1 - Memory Skips* [Non-Lucid]
> 
> The beginning of this dream is harder to recall as I believe it happened in third-person, but there was a group of people searching for something.... A time machine? Special documents? It's hard to remember now, but something important along those lines. This group of people was the bad guys, but a couple good guys had infiltrated their ranks and was planning to sabotage them. My memory skips forward a little bit, and I remember lying naked in bed with a friend of mine. o_o I want to say it was... well, that's not important. >w< But we were just cuddling and I was getting lost in fantasy. My memory jumps forward again a little bit and now I'm walking around a store with my dad, and he's talking to someone about how he always eats all the Ritz crackers and cookies at our house and I get mad that there aren't any left, which isn't even remotely true. 
> 
> I woke up after that. The naked cuddling thing was definitely interesting... my libido was running strong in this dream, which it almost never does (unless I'm lucid). Was the menthol to blame? Hmm....
> ...



So, that's what I've got so far. I'm certainly interested in seeing how much further I can take this, and will be posting more results as they come along!

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## Wolfwood

Very good. I've got the menthol ready to try tonight -- I'll try a third of the pack (63.2mg) at 15.8mg per sweet. I'm surprised you got a positive result from 18.2mg, given that it's a weak kappa-opoid agonist... really must have a low effective dose as a dream aid. Too early to tell yet, however. I'll post tomorrow -- I hope I have a nightmare.

So that guy in your posts consumed a whole pack with each containing 8.6mg when he experienced mentally real nightmares. I'd guess a whole pack contains at least 7-8 sweets, which approximates to the amount I'll ingest.  ::D:   ::D: 

Demons beware.

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## Alyzarin

Awesome! That's a big dose, I'm expecting some good results. :O Yeah, I was actually really surprised that I got anything at all from my dose, it was just a tester.... It wasn't _incredibly_ significant though, so I'm sure your test will have better results.  :smiley:  You got 15.8 per cough drop? What a rip, mine are only 9.1. X)

Well, my pack has 30 so it's hard to say.  :tongue2:  Definitely best to start small and work our ways up, though.

I can't wait to see what it does to your dreams!  ::content::

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## dutchraptor

Awesome Alyzarin  :smiley: . Would supressing the melatonin production ( sorry if I misinterpreted, I didn't read all of it) not carry side effects after prolonged use. If melatonin stimulates deep dreamless sleep would suppressing it not reduce the quality of the deep sleep. As you probably know deep sleep is important in the recovery in the body. Are you willing to test these side effects, I can imagine you would wake up more tired.

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## Alyzarin

Thanks, dutchraptor.  ::content::  It's possible that there would be side effects, yes. I don't know of anyone really trying to use it this way before, so it's hard to say. Though, I would imagine if you only used reasonable doses it wouldn't have an overly large impact on your NREM sleep, but I would still avoid using it every day for long stretches of time. At least, until we've tested it some more. I'm planning to go at it slowly and work my way up.  :smiley:

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## moSh

Though I don't think I have the capacity to read it all right now, I massively admire the time and effort you've taken in compiling this huge body of information! Suffice to say I will be trying this and will let you know if I get any positive results!

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## Alyzarin

Thank you, moSh!  ::content::  I look forward to hearing your results!  ::D:

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## melanieb

> Now, the important part: menthol is a kappa-opioid agonist. It is a weak agonist, but an agonist all the same. For all of the enthusiasts out there, let me put a big DISCLAIMER here: I am not suggesting in any way, shape, or form that menthol is a viable candidate for recreational use as a hallucinogen. Menthol has other effects aside from its kappa-opioid agonism which may or may not create potentially dangerous side effects at doses that would be required for a full hallucinogenic effect. I am ONLY suggesting that it may be used as an effective dream enhancement aid because the doses required are much smaller and known to be safe. Any recreational abuse of menthol is done at your own risk. Believe me, it doesn't seem like I should have to say that, but I'm sure that I do, and it doesn't hurt to play it safe.




It never hurts to reiterate this and make it stand out.    :smiley: 

I hope it goes well!

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## TheForgotten

Woot!  Now this is what I'm talking about.  Something like clinical trials on HUMANS without the requirement of the IRB!  Although, it is cough drops.  Why not?!  It's safer than salvia  ::D:  

Game on!  Now to just find the best brand of super charged cough drops on the market.  I would like to see what others experienced, especially Wolfwood with his supposedly massive dosing.

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## littlezoe

I know it might sound stupid, but i just don't know what kind of menthol you mean...

The menthol i know is in bubblegums, toothpaste, ect to give it a fresh taste or whatever... Is it the same menthol, but pure? Or did i get it wrong?

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## dutchraptor

> I know it might sound stupid, but i just don't know what kind of menthol you mean...
> 
> The menthol i know is in bubblegums, toothpaste, ect to give it a fresh taste or whatever... Is it the same menthol, but pure? Or did i get it wrong?



Hahaha   :Cheeky:  it's the same thing. Menthol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## littlezoe

> Hahaha   it's the same thing. Menthol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Okay thanks, knowing that i can get my hands on the menthol the thread is about, i'll go and read the first post now ^^

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## Alyzarin

Alright, more testers!  ::D:  Just remember guys, start out small.... I'm sure everyone's tolerance to menthol has the potential to vary a loooot given how many things its in, and what works for some may not work for all. I also have some small reason to think that it may actually get slightly stronger the more days you do it in a row, but I'm keeping that reason in until I can verify if it's true, so go slow for now. X)





> Woot!  Now this is what I'm talking about.  Something like clinical trials on HUMANS without the requirement of the IRB!  Although, it is cough drops.  Why not?!  It's safer than salvia  
> 
> Game on!  Now to just find the best brand of super charged cough drops on the market.  I would like to see what others experienced, especially Wolfwood with his supposedly massive dosing.



I know, I can't wait to see if he got a good effect out of it.  ::rolleyes::  You're lucky if you can find some like his, 15.8 mg per drop.... I think I might try ordering some pure menthol crystals soon.  :tongue2: 





> The menthol i know is in bubblegums, toothpaste, ect to give it a fresh taste or whatever...



Hehe, it is in those things, but you might want to find a slightly better method to take it, the doses required are likely a good deal higher than are in those. Unless you're willing to eat a huge amount of bubblegums or toothepaste before going to bed, then it'll work out fine.  ::chuckle::

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## Alyzarin

So, I doubled up my dose last night, for 36.4 mg total. However I did go to bed kind of early, without properly taking into consideration the fact that I recently stopped smoking weed all day every day, which means that going to bed not-high or at leats not very tired usually equals lots of insomnia... bah. Most of the night I ended up tossing and turning and not really dreaming. I know for a fact that melatonin gets rid of my weed-induced insomnia, but I'd like to avoid taking it so early on in the experiment, in case it skewed results.... Maybe I'll just not go to bed until I'm completely exhausted tonight. But in any case, I did get another very clear, very stable lucid, with a familiar ending.  ::rolleyes:: 

DJ Entry - The Lust Returns





> Supplement Dose: 36.4 mg Menthol (Cough Drops)
> 
> *#1 - The Lust Returns* [DILD]
> 
> There was something going on in the beginning of the dream that I can't quite remember, but we were in a huge auditorium with multiple floors of seatings, and I was up on the second floor (which was kind of like a balcony overlooking the stage). There was a massive amount of people there, which is perhaps notable because I'm usually not in crowds this big unless I've taken some kind of dream enhancer. All I really remember about this part of the dream was that we had some kind of instructors or someone who was watching after us, I'm pretty sure my old friend S was there, and someone had pissed me off and subsequently was moved closer to the edge of the balcony, further away from me. Somehow, I think when I was turning to face the crowd behind me, the scene turned into a classroom. I almost want to say there was some strange 2D video game screen that flashed in between this, but my recollection of it is very hazy.... Anyway, once I was in the classroom I pretty much immediately became lucid. I looked at the screen which was pulled down and had the projector turned on, and there were very readable words on it but it was entirely gibberish, and I didn't really make an effort to remember any of it, though it was funny.  I surveyed the class and noticed that everything was in extremely high detail, and the dream hadn't required any stabilization at all. That's nifty, usually things are falling apart for me by now. A bunch of the kids in the class had drinks, so I decided to do a taste test.  I tried three different drinks, all of which were delicious. I want to say that one of them looked vaguely orange juice-like, and I think at least one or both of the others was/were soda. I return to the front of the classroom and say "Someone go get me lunch!", deciding that I wanted to try some food now too. This girl in the back of the class stands up and cheerily says "I'll do it! " Awww, she's cute. >w< I say that I'm going to hug her first on her way out and I basically jump up and wrap myself around her. So warm and soft.  Suddenly my libido starts shooting up HARD. Oh no, this again!  It was much stronger than last night too, so maybe it is a normal menthol effect for me.... The feeling just keeps rising and I'm not sure how much longer I can take it, I'm honestly afraid that I'm just about to explode. I squeeze the girl tighter... and then the dream fades, and I wake up. Intense. X)
> 
> _Dream Fragment_ - Apparently I said something on DV about how not everyone wants to be rich, and tommo was doubting if it was true.

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## littlezoe

> Hehe, it is in those things, but you might want to find a slightly better method to take it, the doses required are likely a good deal higher than are in those. Unless you're willing to eat a huge amount of bubblegums or toothepaste before going to bed, then it'll work out fine.



So what would be the best way to take menthol? I'm not sure if i can get pure menthol crystals... at least i have no idea where to get that from  :tongue2: 

You (and others) mentioned cough drops... would Halls be okay? Or what do you recommend? :smiley: 


Also... i read some of the first post, but it's mostly in that confusing language xD So i'm not exaclty sure how it works, but i would be willing to test it anyway... After all i don't think menthol would do bad...

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## Alyzarin

Hehe, don't worry, I don't expect most people to get the pure crystals.  :tongue2:  Cough drops will probably be the easiest way for most people to test it out, in my opinion. Halls should be fine.  ::content::  It should say somewhere on the package that the active ingredient is menthol, and I'm pretty sure all Halls cough drops do use menthol. If it's the same way there that is here, there should be somewhere on there where it lists the exact dosage and some various usage information.

I can't imagine it would be harmful in our tests. The doses required for side effects are very, very high, and it would likely take more than an entire pack to reach them, given what the creator of the thread I got the inspiration from said. It's known to be a pretty safe chemical.  :smiley: 

*To Everyone:* By the way, don't use that as an excuse to go out an eat a whole pack... I'm just saying. X) Be smart, guys! Menthol is a chemical like any other, and there is a limit.

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## littlezoe

Thanks, that makes sense ^^  :smiley: 

One more question though: What would be the minimum dose that would be enough for a test? Because then i would choose according to that.

Everything you can get in the shops says the ingredients and dosage on it's package, so Halls would definitely have these too  :smiley:

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## Alyzarin

Well, I started out with two cough drops, which with mine was 18.2 mg, and that did create some effects for me. That weren't extremely strong or anything, but they were definitely there. You can certainly start with more than one cough drops, but as long as they're a high enough dose I wouldn't say you necessarily have to start with more than two. See how it effects you at low doses before you push it, you may not even need that much.  :smiley:

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## littlezoe

Just got some Halls from the shop wanted to check out what dose of menthol it has in it... sadly, the pack doesn't say exactly how much menthol it has, but according to this page, this mentho-lyptus kind has 6.5mg menthol in it... Soo i would need to take 3 to have the same amount as you used.. hmm... too bad it only has 9 cough drops in the pack...

I think i'll give it a go with just one single cough drop tomorrow when going back to bed after WBTB, then if it doesn't seem to have much effect then i'll try with 2 and so on  :smiley: 

Also, according to that page, the Ice Blue Peppermint one has 10mg menthol... that one would be the best ^^

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## Wolfwood

Dreams were maybe more nonsensical, and contained content that could be 'nightmarish', but to me there was no feeling of evil. I had no spontaneous lucid; however, my vision was clearer/crisper.... if odd.

Oh. And...

I went to bed with clothes on and woke up completely naked. I definitely don't remember taking my clothes off. o.0 This has never happened before.

I'll try again tonight.

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## Wolfwood

> Just got some Halls from the shop wanted to check out what dose of menthol it has in it... sadly, the pack doesn't say exactly how much menthol it has, but according to this page, this mentho-lyptus kind has 6.5mg menthol in it... Soo i would need to take 3 to have the same amount as you used.. hmm... too bad it only has 9 cough drops in the pack...
> 
> I think i'll give it a go with just one single cough drop tomorrow when going back to bed after WBTB, then if it doesn't seem to have much effect then i'll try with 2 and so on 
> 
> Also, according to that page, the Ice Blue Peppermint one has 10mg menthol... that one would be the best ^^



Extra-Strong Lockets contain 15.8mg if you can get 'em.

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## littlezoe

> I went to bed with clothes on and woke up completely naked. I definitely don't remember taking my clothes off. o.0 This has never happened before.



That must've been a really realistic nightmare xD





> Extra-Strong Lockets contain 15.8mg if you can get 'em.



We don't have those here... :/ But i'm not even sure if we have the Ice Blue Peppermint Halls either...

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## Alyzarin

> Just got some Halls from the shop wanted to check out what dose of menthol it has in it... sadly, the pack doesn't say exactly how much menthol it has, but according to this page, this mentho-lyptus kind has 6.5mg menthol in it... Soo i would need to take 3 to have the same amount as you used.. hmm... too bad it only has 9 cough drops in the pack...
> 
> I think i'll give it a go with just one single cough drop tomorrow when going back to bed after WBTB, then if it doesn't seem to have much effect then i'll try with 2 and so on 
> 
> Also, according to that page, the Ice Blue Peppermint one has 10mg menthol... that one would be the best ^^



I might have to try to find some of that Ice Blue if I can then, that is a nice solid number to work with.  :smiley: 

Sounds like a plan! That's good that you're trying it with WBTB, that's where some testing really needs to be done.  ::content:: 





> Dreams were maybe more nonsensical, and contained content that could be 'nightmarish', but to me there was no feeling of evil. I had no spontaneous lucid; however, my vision was clearer/crisper.... if odd.
> 
> Oh. And...
> 
> I went to bed with clothes on and woke up completely naked. I definitely don't remember taking my clothes off. o.0 This has never happened before.
> 
> I'll try again tonight.



Interestingly, I think the person from the other thread said it was actually the intensity that scared them, not the content of the nightmares themselves.... But that is a really weird circumstance to end up with.  ::lol::  It'd be great if we could actually find out just how much menthol that person was ingesting....

What do you mean by saying your vision was odd?

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## Wolfwood

> That must've been a really realistic nightmare xD
> 
> 
> We don't have those here... :/ But i'm not even sure if we have the Ice Blue Peppermint Halls either...



Haha, well something happened. I've woke up with scratch marks over my back and stomach before, but have never lost my clothes.

Well... there's also essential oils, menthol. Get that from one of those therapeutic stores. Not sure how many mg one drop would be, however. 





> Interestingly, I think the person from the other thread said it was actually the intensity that scared them, not the content of the nightmares themselves.... But that is a really weird circumstance to end up with.  It'd be great if we could actually find out just how much menthol that person was ingesting....
> 
> What do you mean by saying your vision was odd?



Yeah, when I said a minimum of 7-8, I meant his dose (the guy above) would have to be more than, or equal to, what I took.... given 8.6mg per sweet, and he ate the whole pack. I doubt you'd get a pack of sweets with less than 7-8 sweets. 

It was full of artifacts, floating particles etc. As if my vision was so clear that I could see the molecules in the air (dream molecules, of course  ::D: ).

----------


## dutchraptor

I might make extract some menthol from the peppermint plant near my bog. Then I can join in too.

----------


## TheForgotten

Sooooooo thanks to all the talk of which Halls flavor of cough drops to buy, I invested $1.25 into some Ice Blue Peppermint drops.  10mg pieces, wooohooooo.

*Date:* July 3, 2012
*Amount:* 30 mg
*Duration of sleep:* 6 hrs
*Vividness:* Typical
*Lucid:* No
*Stability:* Typical
*Dreams:* Think I saw SaltySeeDog at the beach in passing, teased him about some board shorts on the sand.  Then I found Rhianna (go figure) and she was with her friend and we all did some wind surfing and leaping from surf boards into the water.  Nothing near a nightmare.

So, sad to say, I didn't wake up naked either  :Sad:   I'll try it for a few nights since Aly mentioned there might be some benefits with consistency.  Will keep it at 30 mg.

----------


## Highlander

Hi Alyzarin,

Firstly, I really like your new Avatar. It is really striking & really colourful. Who is the artist behind it? 
(I know it's off topic - so apologies to everyone!)

As Mosh has already stated. You have put a tremendous effort into your research, so fair play on that.
I myself will look into this, if you don't mind. I currently have very good to excellent results on AJ and a LOW dose of B6. WBTB works for me, so it would be interesting for me to compare this against a product which contained methanol as an active ingredient. 
Hopefully I can get some time and try this all being well.

Regards.

P.S: Freudian Slip... I have just noticed my earlier post. I mean't Menthol really! Not Methanol!!!  ::wino::

----------


## littlezoe

So yesterday i took one single cough drop (6,5mg) before going to bed... i didn't expect much from it, but just to try why not... After all i didn't notice anything spectacular.

So i woke up for WBTB and when going back to sleep i took 2 cough drops (13mg), but still nothing really spectacular happened.

Now i have 6 cough drops left and 3 would equal 19,5mg... so tomorrow at WBTB i'll take 3  :smiley: 


Also, there is hungarian candy that's named Negro. It's pretty intense in the menthol aspect... i used to eat a lot of that when i was younger... I think i'll try to get a pack of that soon  :smiley:  I have no idea how much menthol it has actually, but i hope it's good enough as a pack has around 20 candies or more.

----------


## Alyzarin

Alright, well all I really have to say for myself so far is that I didn't take it last night, and there was definitely a drop in vividness and recall. I'm definitely going to stick with it even if it takes us a while to figure out how to get everyone to have more success just so I can tweak it until I figure something out.  :smiley: 





> Yeah, when I said a minimum of 7-8, I meant his dose (the guy above) would have to be more than, or equal to, what I took.... given 8.6mg per sweet, and he ate the whole pack. I doubt you'd get a pack of sweets with less than 7-8 sweets. 
> 
> It was full of artifacts, floating particles etc. As if my vision was so clear that I could see the molecules in the air (dream molecules, of course ).



Yeah, for sure. If only he was still online. :T I'm going to have to do some more research into where exactly the "safe" doses of menthol end.... It's possible that the doses we're taking are still really low.

But that sounds awesome!  ::o:  I'd love to have that kind of thing happen. >w<





> I might make extract some menthol from the peppermint plant near my bog. Then I can join in too.



Awesome! I'd love to hear your results with that.  ::content::  I'm thinking about getting some essential oil myself, just to try a purer source.





> Sooooooo thanks to all the talk of which Halls flavor of cough drops to buy, I invested $1.25 into some Ice Blue Peppermint drops.  10mg pieces, wooohooooo.
> 
> *Date:* July 3, 2012
> *Amount:* 30 mg
> *Duration of sleep:* 6 hrs
> *Vividness:* Typical
> *Lucid:* No
> *Stability:* Typical
> *Dreams:* Think I saw SaltySeeDog at the beach in passing, teased him about some board shorts on the sand.  Then I found Rhianna (go figure) and she was with her friend and we all did some wind surfing and leaping from surf boards into the water.  Nothing near a nightmare.
> ...



Did you get a kind of eucalyptus oil in it? Wolfwood has made me think about some things... and I'm not sure, but right now I think the repeated dosing thing will work more effectively the purer your source is. That's one of the reasons I want the essential oil right now, mine has eucalyptus oil and lecithin in it as well. Though, anything with that should still be usable, and potentially better with WBTBs.





> Hi Alyzarin,
> 
> Firstly, I really like your new Avatar. It is really striking & really colourful. Who is the artist behind it? 
> (I know it's off topic - so apologies to everyone!)
> 
> As Mosh has already stated. You have put a tremendous effort into your research, so fair play on that.
> I myself will look into this, if you don't mind. I currently have very good to excellent results on AJ and a LOW dose of B6. WBTB works for me, so it would be interesting for me to compare this against a product which contained methanol as an active ingredient. 
> Hopefully I can get some time and try this all being well.
> 
> ...



Thanks, RobStar!  ::content::  I'm actually not sure who the artist is, I wish I was.... I got it off of a site that got it off of another site, and didn't really give any information on it. :T

I'm glad you're interested. We could use as many testers as possible! Even if it doesn't turn out to be all too amazing, at least we can get some kind of idea what's going on.  :smiley:  It definitely does have an effect in me so far, even if it's not something extremely significant.

Also, I read this post first on my phone, and the second I did I jumped on my laptop and came to this thread hoping that you had already corrected that typo.  ::chuckle::  I'm going to spell this out here now, just in case anybody else happens to think the wrong thing at first glance:

We are talking about *M-E-N-T-H-O-L*,
*NOT M-E-T-H-A-N-O-L*.

Please don't go out ingesting methanol, people. You have so much to live for. X)





> So yesterday i took one single cough drop (6,5mg) before going to bed... i didn't expect much from it, but just to try why not... After all i didn't notice anything spectacular.
> 
> So i woke up for WBTB and when going back to sleep i took 2 cough drops (13mg), but still nothing really spectacular happened.
> 
> Now i have 6 cough drops left and 3 would equal 19,5mg... so tomorrow at WBTB i'll take 3 
> 
> 
> Also, there is hungarian candy that's named Negro. It's pretty intense in the menthol aspect... i used to eat a lot of that when i was younger... I think i'll try to get a pack of that soon  I have no idea how much menthol it has actually, but i hope it's good enough as a pack has around 20 candies or more.



Sounds good.  ::content::  The candy thing sounds like a good idea, I would sooner ingest a massive amount of candy than a massive amount of cough drops.  :tongue2: 

I'm glad we're getting a good amount of testing around these doses out of the way, this'll really help.... It seems like most people at least aren't getting much from around this level, so it probably does need a boost. I'm still thinking about the dream molecule thing that Wolfwood said from his dose.  ::D:  I may need to try that dose next time....

----------


## Wolfwood

Yeah, what do you mean by 'safe'? As the average lethal dose for 50% of participants (Rabbits) is 5628 mg/kg.... I'm not sure how this scales up to humans. But if it was a matter of, if you weigh 90kg x 5628 mg = 506g, then all is fine. Even if we take a ridiculously conservative estimate and say 1g in 24 hours.... that's well off the mg we're taking.

Oh, and I took the same amount last night. All that happened were a series of dreams that involved a lot of people dying -- though this isn't unusual for me. I fought Mike Tyson for a laugh, and he called me a n***** throughout. o.o

Nothing to report basically. I'm going to try this during a WBTB tonight.

----------


## Alyzarin

Yeah, I was just looking at those figures.... You can't really just convert one species' LD50 into humans and get a perfect figure, but the fact that multiple species all have huge LD50s dose speak quite a lot to its safety. I may try ~100 mg tonight and see where that gets me, if I feel like choking down that many cough drops. X) Maybe I'll go get some stronger ones.

Haha, you make this kind of hard to pick out the nightmares with your dreams being so psychotic anyway, huh?  :tongue2:

----------


## Wolfwood

Yeah, and my packet says I can consume 1 whole pack in 24hours. That'd be 170mg.

lol... yeah... Alright.  :tongue2:

----------


## Alyzarin

Ah, well there you go.  ::chuckle::  Alright, 100 mg it is.  ::rolleyes::

----------


## Alyzarin

Oh, by the way, I feel I should mention this....

I think I may be the only one in this thread right now this would really apply to. If I actually am correct about the way that the CB1 receptor works, with releasing dynorphins and then phenethlyamine, and all that stuff, then it's possible (but I'm not giving any guarantee, just throwing it out there) that my legitimately chronic weed smoking may somehow impact my sensitivity to menthol, whatever that might imply. Even ignoring that and sticking to the known facts, it's possible that my experimentation with salvia (both as a hallucinogen and a dream aid) may have impacted my sensitivity as well. Salvia tends to get easier to notice the more often you do it, and that may be helping me notice menthol's effects now. Or it may not... I just can't rule out the possibility.

----------


## TheForgotten

Well that would support my findings where I got pretty much nothing from my initial experience.  Only misuse of legal drugs or usage of illegal drugs I've done was weed at the age of 12.  Once and never again.  So, my brain is totally unprimed for the menthol experience possibly.

haha, you should have anyone partaking in this, state what their past drug usage has been xD  Kidding, that's probably not a good idea.  Maybe generalized drug background would be better for most.

----------


## Alyzarin

Haha, well, we also still don't really know what an effective dose for most would be.  :tongue2:  It could be something much higher normally.... Tonight's trial should give a little insight.  ::rolleyes:: 

My drug background... hehe. I used to trip every couple of days, and I've been through a few phases of smoking weed all day every day. >w< That's probably all of the relevant stuff. I haven't tripped in quite a while, though.

----------


## Wolfwood

Me: I'm just Mr. Sensitive.

----------


## Sn0wy

I can vouch for the menthol working. I ate 3 cough drops before I went to sleep, and I had 4 very vivid, and memorable dreams. I'll definitely be eating a lot of cough drops. xD

----------


## Alyzarin

Awesome!  ::D:  Do you know the exact dosage you took? It should tell you how much is in each one somewhere on the package. Also, do you know if they also have eucalyptus oil or soy lecithin in them?

----------


## dutchraptor

Mint has been proven to help memory up to an average of 28% effiency I just read. Interesting.
On a side: Didn't take menthol yet, did wake with clothes on somehow???

----------


## Alyzarin

That is interesting. :O I wonder if it's from the menthol itself, or some other chemical constituent? Maybe I should start looking into what else is floating around in that plant....

That is odd though. o.O Hehe, are you a sleepwalker?  ::chuckle::

----------


## Sn0wy

> Awesome!  Do you know the exact dosage you took? It should tell you how much is in each one somewhere on the package. Also, do you know if they also have eucalyptus oil or soy lecithin in them?



Each cough drop has 9.1 mg of menthol in it. I took 3 of them, so that's 27.3 mg of menthol.

----------


## Alyzarin

Just like mine.  ::rolleyes::  Alright, thanks for the info!  ::content::  That definitely would have given me a dream boost, too. So, these doses I've been using are definitely good for more than just me, but not necessarily everyone. Interesting....

----------


## dutchraptor

Here's an average article Aromatherapy in action - Peppermint aroma improves memory and concentration
It seems that the increased memory is caused either by the menthol, methone or mentho furan as these have the highest proportions in peppermint. I might try just taking large amounts of peppermint tea instead of just menthol as I'm not sure which ingredients contribute to this memory. 
I dont sleep walk but I practise Deild. Lately this week I've had trouble staying awake during the night and I only remember two out of the six times I get up.

----------


## Alyzarin

Thanks for the link! That's pretty cool, I used to drink peppermint tea on a daily basis but I just kind of dropped the habit. I guess I should get back into it.  ::rolleyes::  I wonder if it really is the menthol though? I suppose I know a way that it could contribute those effects in the long-term.... I forgot about menthone though, I wonder if they know much about it? I'll have to do some research!

Ah gotcha, gotcha. I wonder what you ended up doing those times you can't remember?  :tongue2:

----------


## Wolfwood

> On a side: Didn't take menthol yet, did wake with clothes on somehow???



hahaha

----------


## Highlander

Hi, 

Yep, I thought I'd better point out and correct that mistake. Pronto!

The art & that artist are really cool - they must LD themselves?
No, it is great to try and help if I can. I'm quite good at WBTB. It is a very reliable method for me. I tend to be quite methodical in my findings as people can see with my DJ entries.

My background: Probably the only drug I ever really take is Paracetamol. I don't drink hardly any Alcohol nowadays; perhaps only on special occasions, or once a week at most. I have been off the AJ and B6 for over a day or two so there is no undue influence from that regarding any findings, etc. My next WBTB will be hopefully tomorrow morning.

I have got hold of a pack of Honey and Lemon Lockets to try. (10 lozenges per pack.)

Each lozenge contains the following active ingredients:
Menthol 9.7 mg
Eucalyptol 9.2 mg

Other: (Inc. sugar, glucose syrup, honey, glycerol, natural flavourings and citric acid, etc.)
Vitamin C 12.8 mg (per lozenge)
Total Sugars 4.1 g (per lozenge)

I intend to take TWO lozenges on my usual WBTB which will work out at 18.4 mg Menthol. I would probably have to try it a few times to try to get consistent results first.

Regards.

(P.S: The actual warning on *my* pack states: Overdose of Menthol may case severe stomach upset, feeling or being sick, giddiness, shaking, drowsiness. Adults and Children over 12 years: Do not consume more than 3 packs. Children 7-12: 2 packs. Children 3-6: 1 pack.)

I would probably end up with bad teeth (due to the sugar) firstly rather than the OD itself!

----------


## Wolfwood

Strange... so your pack of Lockets says you can consume up to 3 packets @ 9.7mg per lozenge, and yet mine says no more than 1 packet @ 15.8mg per lozenge. Psh, that doesn't translate at all... that's equivalently saying 29.1mg of yours to 15.8mg of mine. Wrigley don't have a clue. >_> Unless I've missed something obvious.

----------


## Highlander

Yep, mine are UK ones, by Wrigley. Perhaps they should stick to making chewing gum. (Sorry about the pun.)
Wolfwood my friend; all I can say is you must be on the hard stuff!

(According to Mr Wrigley then I can have 291 mg in 24 hours! And a big dentist bill to boot!)  ::D:

----------


## Alyzarin

> The art & that artist are really cool - they must LD themselves?



They're definitely up to something.  ::rolleyes:: 





> No, it is great to try and help if I can. I'm quite good at WBTB. It is a very reliable method for me. I tend to be quite methodical in my findings as people can see with my DJ entries.
> 
> My background: Probably the only drug I ever really take is Paracetamol. I don't drink hardly any Alcohol nowadays; perhaps only on special occasions, or once a week at most. I have been off the AJ and B6 for over a day or two so there is no undue influence from that regarding any findings, etc. My next WBTB will be hopefully tomorrow morning.
> 
> I have got hold of a pack of Honey and Lemon Lockets to try. (10 lozenges per pack.)
> 
> Each lozenge contains the following active ingredients:
> Menthol 9.7 mg
> Eucalyptol 9.2 mg
> ...



Awesome, I can't wait to hear what you have to say!  ::content::  Hopefully something good!





> (P.S: The actual warning on *my* pack states: Overdose of Menthol may case severe stomach upset, feeling or being sick, giddiness, shaking, drowsiness. Adults and Children over 12 years: Do not consume more than 3 packs. Children 7-12: 2 packs. Children 3-6: 1 pack.)
> 
> I would probably end up with bad teeth (due to the sugar) firstly rather than the OD itself!



Thanks for that, I've been hoping to find a good, solid list of symptoms.  :smiley:  None of that sounds really too dangerous, definitely not something that couldn't be treated easily if it had to be.... I wouldn't really worry about overdoses since it seems to be pretty safe, but it is always good to know what to look for.  ::content::

----------


## Highlander

> Thanks for that, I've been hoping to find a good, solid list of symptoms.  None of that sounds really too dangerous, definitely not something that couldn't be treated easily if it had to be.... I wouldn't really worry about overdoses since it seems to be pretty safe, but it is always good to know what to look for.



I forgot to add that was in a 24 hr period. Presumably short term. Long term at high doses maybe a different kettle of fish altogether?
Everything in moderation IMO, as the lozenges have other additives, colourings, etc.

----------


## Alyzarin

For sure, it's hard to say what chronic use of it may do, but that's why we're experimenting!  ::content::  I would definitely recommend not sticking to the cough drops forever, they're just convenient for people to test with. While they're probably not really dangerous either, it's difficult to say for sure. I'm intending to switch to experimenting with menthol essential oil or maybe pure menthol, and do some testing with mint and peppermint teas. The natural chemical mixes might make for an even more synergistic effect, and are definitely a good, natural way to go. I'll bet a few cups of tea could create effects the same as the cough drops.  :smiley:  The only thing that kept me from going straight for them was that I want to know the exact menthol doses that work, but they're certainly a viable option.

----------


## littlezoe

So, today: I took 3 cough drops (19mg) before going back to bed after WBTB. I'm not sure if it's relevant at all, but i had a lucid and some of my regular dreams were kinda weird... althrough i had even more weird ones earlier during the night before i took any cough drops... So i can't really tell... 

But i ran out of the cough drops now (i was eating them randomly during the day, i couldn't help it xD), so i have to go to the city anyway... i'll buy some Negro and check how much menthol it has... or if it doesn't have enough then i'll try to find Ice Blue Peppermint Halls.

----------


## Wolfwood

I was a lazy bastard and couldn't get up during the WBTB to eat them. So, err... failure.

----------


## Alyzarin

Well, I ended up partying for the fourth of July so I put off that 100 mg dose, no reason to try if my recall's going to be crappy anyway.  ::roll::  I'll get to it, though. >w<





> So, today: I took 3 cough drops (19mg) before going back to bed after WBTB. I'm not sure if it's relevant at all, but i had a lucid and some of my regular dreams were kinda weird... althrough i had even more weird ones earlier during the night before i took any cough drops... So i can't really tell... 
> 
> But i ran out of the cough drops now (i was eating them randomly during the day, i couldn't help it xD), so i have to go to the city anyway... i'll buy some Negro and check how much menthol it has... or if it doesn't have enough then i'll try to find Ice Blue Peppermint Halls.



Did you notice anything different about the feeling or environment while you were lucid? But it's possible that you might just need a higher dose.

Have you considered going the tea route at all? I think I might switch over to peppermint tea until I get my menthol essential oil.... I really don't have the burning desire to keep eating large amounts of cough drops, but that may just be me. X)





> I was a lazy bastard and couldn't get up during the WBTB to eat them. So, err... failure.



Don't worry, that's an understandable excuse.  :tongue2:

----------


## Highlander

Here is my findings from this morning via my DJ entry: 
ABBA. Vibrations. The 'Naked' Bar - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Dosage taken: x2 lozenges. Total Menthol = 19.4 mg (WBTB)
Quite interesting results so far, but I would need to try more WBTB (menthol) experiments to try to see consistency over time, as in this one single case it may be 'beginners luck'? I did feel I may have had a lighter sleep.

I have tried to give a full account as (reasonably) possible. The last dream is a bit NSFW, which is a bit different considering my usual dreams! (All the dreams were wrote down as early as possible to maintain accuracy.)

Hope this helps Alyzarin.

----------


## littlezoe

> Did you notice anything different about the feeling or environment while you were lucid? But it's possible that you might just need a higher dose.
> 
> Have you considered going the tea route at all? I think I might switch over to peppermint tea until I get my menthol essential oil.... I really don't have the burning desire to keep eating large amounts of cough drops, but that may just be me. X)



Hmm... not sure... it wasn't much more vivid than usually and i didn't feel anything extraordinary... Probably i would need a higher dose  :smiley: 

As for the tea... i never tried tea like that yet so i'm not sure  :tongue2: 

Also... i just came home... I bought an Extra Strong pack of Negro, but i just can't tell how much menthol it has... It doesn't say on the pack, just that it contains menthol and peppermint. I searched on google, but found nothing about it's menthol dose... There is an info-line on the pack, but i'm not sure if they could answer my question lol.

I also bought a honey-lemon Halls, which has 9,1mg/cough drop... If i can't figure out the Negro dose until tomorrow, then i'll start with the Halls.

----------


## dutchraptor

I was told that placing pure menthol crystal on your tongue can be an extremely weird painfull experience. Just in case you wanted to try out how it feels, Don't.

----------


## TheForgotten

> I was told that placing pure menthol crystal on your tongue can be an extremely weird painfull experience. Just in case you wanted to try out how it feels, Don't.



Now I'm ~THIS!~ close to making this a personal mission.  





Tried some cough drops again last night...

Date: July 5, 2012
Amount: 30 mg
Duration of sleep: 4 hrs
Vividness: Typical
Lucid: Yes
Stability: Typical
Dreams: Playing with a serial kidnapper/killer?  Nothing fearful about it, decently fun and playful actually.

I don't know if this is the menthol but both times I've taken it my dreams have been happy and playful.  Oh, I should also note, recently I've been drinking the energy drink Rockstar.  Has lots of crap in it :\  but I refuse to eliminate it from my diet.  It does good things.

----------


## melanieb

The energy drink might have other things people use for lucid dreams.

Check the ingredients.

I like the progress in this thread.

 :smiley:

----------


## Highlander

*July 6 2012*
12.08 am  -  Retired to bed
5.20 am  - 5.45 am WBTB  (x2 lozenges = 19.4 mg)
6.52 am - Dream (Non-lucid, SP?)
8.20 am - Wake for the day ahead

My WBTB routine was the same as yesterday, give or take a minute. Same as yesterday where I found it hard to sleep, along with a bit of gastric wind from the ingested lozenges.
Did have a dream where I felt someone was holding my foot down, trying to stop me moving it, like it was stuck or trapped. I did get the impression (whilst in the dream) that this was due to a bout of SP, which is a good sign.
My visualisation threshold was higher as I could 'see' scenes, etc. as I was trying to drop off. Like yesterday, I think my sleep was lighter.
I also found it hard to sleep as I got too hot which didn't help. So not as exciting as yesterday, but still promising.

I will have to try this during a WILD attempt as this may suit. Has anyone else tried already?

----------


## dutchraptor

Had a cup of fresh mint tea from a field near my house and....wow.
My dream was slightly more vivid but it was so long and in the morning I remembered the entire thing in seconds. Hopefully I will have the same success tonight.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Here is my findings from this morning via my DJ entry: 
> ABBA. Vibrations. The 'Naked' Bar - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
> 
> Dosage taken: x2 lozenges. Total Menthol = 19.4 mg (WBTB)
> Quite interesting results so far, but I would need to try more WBTB (menthol) experiments to try to see consistency over time, as in this one single case it may be 'beginners luck'? I did feel I may have had a lighter sleep.
> 
> I have tried to give a full account as (reasonably) possible. The last dream is a bit NSFW, which is a bit different considering my usual dreams! (All the dreams were wrote down as early as possible to maintain accuracy.)
> 
> Hope this helps Alyzarin.



Yep, it helps a lot! Thanks!  ::content::  My dreams are normally totally innocent too (unless I'm lucid) but both times I've taken menthol so far I had a lucid that ended with my libido shooting up really strongly, and on the first night I had a non-lucid with a sexual theme. Do you think they might be connected?





> Hmm... not sure... it wasn't much more vivid than usually and i didn't feel anything extraordinary... Probably i would need a higher dose 
> 
> As for the tea... i never tried tea like that yet so i'm not sure 
> 
> Also... i just came home... I bought an Extra Strong pack of Negro, but i just can't tell how much menthol it has... It doesn't say on the pack, just that it contains menthol and peppermint. I searched on google, but found nothing about it's menthol dose... There is an info-line on the pack, but i'm not sure if they could answer my question lol.
> 
> I also bought a honey-lemon Halls, which has 9,1mg/cough drop... If i can't figure out the Negro dose until tomorrow, then i'll start with the Halls.



Sounds good! And yeah, you could probably push somewhere around 30-40 mg for an effective boost to see if it gets you anywhere.  :smiley: 





> I was told that placing pure menthol crystal on your tongue can be an extremely weird painfull experience. Just in case you wanted to try out how it feels, Don't.



I'll try to keep that in mind. X) Thanks for the advice.  :tongue2: 





> Tried some cough drops again last night...
> 
> Date: July 5, 2012
> Amount: 30 mg
> Duration of sleep: 4 hrs
> Vividness: Typical
> Lucid: Yes
> Stability: Typical
> Dreams: Playing with a serial kidnapper/killer?  Nothing fearful about it, decently fun and playful actually.
> ...



Well that's always nice.  ::rolleyes::  Are you going to try pushing your dose up at all, or switching to a different method? I'm thinking it's looking like the tea method is good route to take, especially since it supposedly helps with memory.





> I like the progress in this thread.



I know, I'm happy people are actually getting into it! If this is an effective dream aid, we'll have it cracked pretty soon.  ::content:: 





> *July 6 2012*
> 12.08 am  -  Retired to bed
> 5.20 am  - 5.45 am WBTB  (x2 lozenges = 19.4 mg)
> 6.52 am - Dream (Non-lucid, SP?)
> 8.20 am - Wake for the day ahead
> 
> My WBTB routine was the same as yesterday, give or take a minute. Same as yesterday where I found it hard to sleep, along with a bit of gastric wind from the ingested lozenges.
> Did have a dream where I felt someone was holding my foot down, trying to stop me moving it, like it was stuck or trapped. I did get the impression (whilst in the dream) that this was due to a bout of SP, which is a good sign.
> My visualisation threshold was higher as I could 'see' scenes, etc. as I was trying to drop off. Like yesterday, I think my sleep was lighter.
> ...



That is interesting. :O I think I know what you're talking about too, with the visualization... the first night I took it it was like full scenes would come to mind very easily and vividly. I also did a WILD by accident that morning.  ::rolleyes::  I normally have trouble with it, but it happened very quickly and smoothly. I'm definitely excited to see if it helps you with it!





> Had a cup of fresh mint tea from a field near my house and....wow.
> My dream was slightly more vivid but it was so long and in the morning I remembered the entire thing in seconds. Hopefully I will have the same success tonight.



Awesome! So the tea method really is a good route.  ::D:  That's good to know, and I'm glad you've had success!

I think I'm just going to start recommending that people try switching to tea if the cough drops aren't working, or even just if you intend to do it for an extended period of time. A natural source is definitely nice.  ::content::  But the essential oil will be even better for testing.  ::rolleyes::

----------


## littlezoe

Turns out the Negro candy is made since 1920 and it's recipe is top secret ever since... lol.. explains why can't i find anything specific on it...

Now i don't know how could i find out it's dose :/

----------


## Wolfwood

Does it recommend not to consume more than a certain amount in 24hours on the packet?

----------


## littlezoe

> Does it recommend not to consume more than a certain amount in 24hours on the packet?



Nope, i can't seem to find info like that.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Turns out the Negro candy is made since 1920 and it's recipe is top secret ever since... lol.. explains why can't i find anything specific on it...
> 
> Now i don't know how could i find out it's dose :/



Ah, I see.  :tongue2:  Well, as nice as it would be to know the doses, you could still give them a try. I want to find good dosage information, but I also just want everyone to have success with it first. :3 If you can get it to work, then at least we know we're on to something. That's why I've been recommending the tea method, too.

----------


## littlezoe

> Ah, I see.  Well, as nice as it would be to know the doses, you could still give them a try. I want to find good dosage information, but I also just want everyone to have success with it first. :3 If you can get it to work, then at least we know we're on to something. That's why I've been recommending the tea method, too.



I'm just not sure how many should i take before going back to bed... Just by the taste i can't really compare it with Halls xD

I have 33 candies left in the packet right now  :smiley: 


*Spoiler* for _Negro attack_: 








I'll look up on that tea too then, hopefully we have something similar here.

----------


## Alyzarin

> I'm just not sure how many should i take before going back to bed... Just by the taste i can't really compare it with Halls xD
> 
> I have 33 candies left in the packet right now 
> 
> I'll look up on that tea too then, hopefully we have something similar here.



Yeah, I getcha. Why don't you just pick a reasonable starter dose and see where it gets you, since you have so many? Like 3-5, and if that's not enough then push it up some more.

I'm sure you can find peppermint tea if you check the right places, it's pretty common.  :smiley:  I need to go pick up some myself!

----------


## littlezoe

Okay, 3 sounds good for the first try... and because of that i'll have 30 left.. i like even numbers  :tongue2:  Double good xD

----------


## Alyzarin

Hehe, sounds like a plan.  ::chuckle::

----------


## Highlander

Glad the dream report helped. In regard to sex type dreams, libido, etc. then it may be that the ‘sexy’ dreams are remembered easier? It may be that people have less inhibition in certain dreams. I know Freud made a big deal regarding sex and dreams, inc. all the symbolism, etc. In my case with the dream yesterday then it was probably one of the first times that I made a group of people appear by thought alone. Sure they were naked and I couldn’t believe the entirety of it all. I mean literally! It wasn’t meant to be too sexual as such, however to me it reinforced the power of our minds. We take it for granted, especially in waking life.
I’m glad I had the opportunity to try. If I hadn’t read your original post (regarding the testing) then I wouldn’t have broken one of my mental barriers down (regarding LD); so thanks!

However the earlier dream yesterday morning regarding the vibrations were quite pleasurable. It seemed more ‘sexual’ than the main dream because it was more feeling and sensation rather than usual visuals. I did wake up after feeling a bit aroused (physically.) It seems the body doesn’t lie after all.
I seem to have noticed a change in my visual threshold with the Menthol. I.e: It is easier for me to ‘see’ scenes and things. I will have to try to solve the stomach thing, maybe try and get hold of the tea, then compare any findings as I still have got some lozenges left to try out.

----------


## Alyzarin

I definitely remember sexy dreams more easily, so that would make sense to me. Libido is also connected to D2 like dreaming, so they do kind of go hand in hand. That was a pretty cool entry, though.  :tongue2:  Sounds like a fun place to be.  ::chuckle::  And you're welcome, I'm glad it's helped you!  ::content:: 

Vibrations always turn me on. >w< They just feel so amazing.  :armflap:  I definitely get what you're referring to with the visual change, that's one of the big things for me too. There's a definite increase in the amount of detail of the sceneries, or at least how much I notice them. The tea will probably be much easier on the stomach than the cough drops, I bet it'd help you a lot to switch over.  :smiley:  I'm intending to try some tonight, so we'll see how that goes!

----------


## Wolfwood

I'm testing some extra-strong Halls tonight as I ran out of Lockets... literally ate them during the day. I like them lol.

----------


## Alyzarin

Haha, if you keep it up long enough you might reach the level of the person from the old thread.  :tongue2:  What's the strength on the Halls?

----------


## Wolfwood

No idea... says: Menthol 0.52% w/w, Eucalyptus Oil 0.26% w/w. Hmmm....

Guess w/w means 'without wrapper'? o.0 Lemme see the weight

----------


## Alyzarin

How cryptic.  :Thinking:  I would have to guess that's what it means, I don't know what else it could stand for.  ::chuckle::

----------


## littlezoe

I couldn't find it's dose on wiki either... the other ones have their dose documented there, but not the Extra Strong one O.o

----------


## Alyzarin

Hmmmm.... Some kind of menthol-related conspiracy? >.>;;

----------


## Wolfwood

33g (including wrapper)....  if I take 10g away for wrapper that's around 12mg per sweet.... with wrapper, it's 17.16mg per sweet. So probably somewhere in between.

And says I can consume 1 pack in 24hrs.

----------


## Alyzarin

Ah, cool. Well darn, with all the secrecy I was expecting something a bit more substantial.  :tongue2:

----------


## littlezoe

> 33g (including wrapper)....  if I take 10g away for wrapper that's around 12mg per sweet.... with wrapper, it's 17.16mg per sweet. So probably somewhere in between.
> 
> And says I can consume 1 pack in 24hrs.



But it has more stuff in it, not just menthol...

----------


## dutchraptor

> No idea... says: Menthol 0.52% w/w, Eucalyptus Oil 0.26% w/w. Hmmm....
> 
> Guess w/w means 'without wrapper'? o.0 Lemme see the weight



Basically w/w means the mass of that substance out of the total mass. So in this cass its means g/g. So no the wrapper is not included  :tongue2:

----------


## Wolfwood

> But it has more stuff in it, not just menthol...



Yeah, but I know the % of menthol from above. And I doubt more than 1/3 of the weight is going to be the wrapper.

----------


## littlezoe

> Yeah, but I know the % of menthol from above. And I doubt more than a 1/3 of the weight is going to be the wrapper.



Ah yes, i forgot that...

Well, i'm bad at math, sorry  ::D:

----------


## Wolfwood

> Ah yes, i forgot that...
> 
> Well, i'm bad at math, sorry



So am I.  :tongue2:

----------


## Wolfwood

Man, I just wanna eat em all now.

----------


## Alyzarin

If you do, make sure you write a trip report if you start hallucinating at all, I'm somewhat interested in that dose-response curve as well.  ::chuckle::

----------


## Wolfwood

Yes, ma'am!


 ::D:  I hope I start hallucinating. I'll try it in the darkness. Yes, I'll eat 'em all. How would alcohol affect this? I... just stumbled on a bottle of wine.

----------


## Alyzarin

Oh god, you're actually gonna do it lol. Well I mean, I suppose the overall dose probably isn't THAT absurd... just be careful. >w< How many are in the pack, anyway?

Well, if it is hallucinogenic, I don't doubt that _you_ will be able to get some effect out of it.  :tongue2:

----------


## littlezoe

Umm... i doubt it would cause anything serious... After all what dose would a whole pack be? Probably not that much that it would have too much of an effect outside of dreams... or at least that's how i think about it.

Eating the whole pack is an interesting idea though  :tongue2:

----------


## Alyzarin

Yeah, but those "you can eat a whole pack in 24 hours" lines are likely meant to be over at least a good chunk of the day, not like all at once.  :tongue2:  But yeah, I would imagine that any alteration of consciousness would be minor, unless the tester happened to be particularly sensitive to these kinds of effects....  ::chuckle::  But probably still legitimate. I would bet that's a high enough dose that there's SOME kind of effect, even if it's only sedation or something like that.

I'm really interested in how his dreams are going to turn out afterward.  ::rolleyes::

----------


## Wolfwood

> >w< How many are in the pack, anyway?
> 
> Well, if it is hallucinogenic, I don't doubt that _you_ will be able to get some effect out of it.



 



> Umm... i doubt it would cause anything serious... After all what dose would a whole pack be? 
> Eating the whole pack is an interesting idea though



Only 10 in my pack. O_O, so that's about 120-130mg. Don't you have 30 something in yours, Zoe?

----------


## Wolfwood

> But yeah, I would imagine that any alteration of consciousness would be minor, unless the tester happened to be particularly sensitive to these kinds of effects....  
> 
> I'm really interested in how his dreams are going to turn out afterward.



You know me... it'd be like consuming three packs for a normal person. >_>

----------


## littlezoe

> Only 10 in my pack. O_O, so that's about 120-130mg. Don't you have 30 something in yours, Zoe?



I have 30 in my Negro pack, not the Halls.

I have 9 in the Halls pack.... now i'm thinking about eating that 9 tomorrow during the WBTB lol.

One has 9,1mg of menthol... so 9 would be 81,9mg... Hmm...

----------


## Alyzarin

I want to say so much for starting small, but I guess we have already given the lower dosages a good shot. X) Maybe you should, if you're up for it. The 80-120 mg range could be closer to what we want, though I would recommend switching to a different method if it works, rather than eating 9 or 10 cough drops every time you WBTB.  ::chuckle::

----------


## littlezoe

> I want to say so much for starting small, but I guess we have already given the lower dosages a good shot. X) Maybe you should, if you're up for it. The 80-120 mg range could be closer to what we want, though I would recommend switching to a different method if it works, rather than eating 9 or 10 cough drops every time you WBTB.



Hah, i would surely not pay it's price for 9 Halls cough drops everyday... xD I'll try it tomorrow, after all it's worth it for testing... Who knows, maybe i'll even have a totally vivid lucid... that would be good ^^

----------


## Wolfwood

Ah, there must be 9 in mine then.... I counted from the outside.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Hah, i would surely not pay it's price for 9 Halls cough drops everyday... xD I'll try it tomorrow, after all it's worth it for testing... Who knows, maybe i'll even have a totally vivid lucid... that would be good ^^



Good luck then!  ::content::  I hope you do, that would be good for everyone.  ::rolleyes::

----------


## Wolfwood

I've eaten half the pack already.  ::rolleyes::

----------


## Alyzarin

How can you even stand it? X) I've yet to try a cough drop I actually enjoyed the taste of.

----------


## littlezoe

> Good luck then!  I hope you do, that would be good for everyone.



Thanks, i'll definitely try it. I don't mind eating the whole pack since i'll still have 33 Negros left that i can test with later (or just eat for fun) ^^





> I've eaten half the pack already.



That goes fast, lol. Do you just chew it like bubblegum? xD





> How can you even stand it? X) I've yet to try a cough drop I actually enjoyed the taste of.



I always thought about Halls as candy.. and i like candy  :tongue2: ... i didn't even know people use them as cough drops before i heard about it in this thread  :smiley:

----------


## Wolfwood

Yep, basically just munching through 'em. I like the feeling when I take deep breaths... reckon they'd be good during meditation.

----------


## Wolfwood

> How can you even stand it? X) I've yet to try a cough drop I actually enjoyed the taste of.



Oh yeah, don't know if you saw. I'm drinking alcohol simultaneously.... good/bad?

----------


## Alyzarin

> Oh yeah, don't know if you saw. I'm drinking alcohol simultaneously.... good/bad?



Hmm.... I can't think of any immediate contraindications, and a quick search didn't reveal any. I would probably avoid drinking _too_ much since you're experimenting with something new, anyway. A word of warning... alcohol makes salvia way more intense, so there may be some synergy here as well.  :tongue2:

----------


## Wolfwood

Well, the alcohol aspect is...um...done now. I've already got that effect where things in my peripheral look like they're moving from a breeze (but they're not).

----------


## Alyzarin

Wait, from the alcohol or the menthol? o.o

----------


## Wolfwood

> Wait, from the alcohol or the menthol? o.o



I don't know lol. Finished the whole pack now too. It's not just in my peripheral (though more pronounced), if I stare at my jacket on the door it starts to breathe, like a chest. I am mildly sleep deprived too. So combining this all...

----------


## Alyzarin

> I don't know lol. Finished the whole pack now too. It's not just in my peripheral (though more pronounced), if I stare at my jacket on the door it starts to breathe, like a chest. I am mildly sleep deprived too. So combining this all...



Oh boy, try not to go crazy. >w< That type of visual sounds fitting for what I would expect of menthol... but with all that it's hard to say so far. I guess we'll see.  ::rolleyes::

----------


## littlezoe

I'm sure that's because of the alcohol... lol.

----------


## Wolfwood

Mmm, I have consumed a whole bottle of wine.

----------


## Alyzarin

> I'm sure that's because of the alcohol... lol.



You never know, especially with Wolfwood.  ::rolleyes::  Alcohol doesn't make me see breathing visuals normally, though I can't speak for him.





> Mmm, I have consumed a whole bottle of wine.



Pfft, just a bottle?  :tongue2:

----------


## Wolfwood

> You never know, especially with Wolfwood.  Alcohol doesn't make me see breathing visuals normally, though I can't speak for him.
> 
> 
> 
> Pfft, just a bottle?



lol, it wasn't my intention to drink. I stumbled upon it under my chair...  ::rolleyes::  

That's the only thing I'm not sensitive to though, strangely. All chemicals hit me hard, but alcohol.. I'm relatively sane no matter how much I drink. Until I have so much that I just can't move.

----------


## Alyzarin

> lol, it wasn't my intention to drink. I stumbled upon it under my chair...



Uhhu, I'm sure.  :tongue2:

----------


## Wolfwood

> Uhhu, I'm sure.



Why did I make it look like I was lying? lol good one, Wolfwood.

----------


## Alyzarin

Fuckin' up, you're too drunk for this. X) Feeling anything from that menthol yet?  :tongue2:  There should definitely be something at some point if you took that much, even if it doesn't make you really trip. It does have some pain killing effects at lower (relative to hallucinogenic) doses, but I suppose they might go unnoticed if you don't look for them.

----------


## Wolfwood

Definitely more pronounced now... I can't tell if something is swaying or not. Have to grab it to determine. I feel a bit detached and sick.

----------


## Alyzarin

Veeeery interesting....  ::rolleyes::  I wonder how effective the dose will actually be? Like, if it'll level out soon or keep going....

----------


## Alyzarin

If you're feeling sick, you might just have an upset stomach from the menthol, like someone mentioned before. Probably not the greatest combo with alcohol. >.< But just puke or something if you have to, that usually makes drug nausea go away.

----------


## Wolfwood

> Veeeery interesting....  I wonder how effective the dose will actually be? Like, if it'll level out soon or keep going....



Wow... I switched off all the lights and screen. In utter darkness, the effect is well good. I see moving shadow 'things' come out from objects. Only if I focus on an area for about 5 seconds though.

----------


## Alyzarin

Oh wow, I'd say it's definitely active then.  ::chuckle::  Tripping off menthol.... Well, there's another drug you can cross off your to-do list.  :tongue2:

----------


## dutchraptor

Okay just to warn you guys, the recommended amount is 200micrograms per kilo  a day. The fatal amount is anything over 1g per kilo of body weight. So I'm thinking 120g might be a bit too much. Test subjects have reacted with headache, flush, rash, dizziness and hypertension from contact with menthol in a variety of forms, e.g., toothpaste, cigarette smoke, candies and medications. A few other symptoms are severe abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, vertigo, ataxia, drowsiness and coma. Be carefull guys, I dont think you should go over 50g.

Here a menthol poisoning review http://goodhealth.freeservers.com/MentholToxicology.htm

----------


## littlezoe

I would believe that menthol causes this if he would do it without alcohol...  ::roll::

----------


## Highlander

> I definitely remember sexy dreams more easily, so that would make sense to me. Libido is also connected to D2 like dreaming, so they do kind of go hand in hand. That was a pretty cool entry, though.  Sounds like a fun place to be.  And you're welcome, I'm glad it's helped you! 
> 
> Vibrations always turn me on. >w< They just feel so amazing.  I definitely get what you're referring to with the visual change, that's one of the big things for me too. There's a definite increase in the amount of detail of the sceneries, or at least how much I notice them. The tea will probably be much easier on the stomach than the cough drops, I bet it'd help you a lot to switch over.  I'm intending to try some tonight, so we'll see how that goes!



Yeah the vibrations are really cool. They are a really nice feeling. I look forward to more, although when I was younger (late teens) then that type of thing used to scare the crap out of me. I used to get the 'old hag' type nightmares, etc. where you cannot move. (I tend only to work on dreams around WBTB rather than before when it is light.)  :Eek: 
Yes that dream I had was really great, although not exactly the Moloko bar however! I did do a drawing as an attachment later, however it doesn't do the dream justice as I have used artistic licence, especially regarding the t-shirt, etc. The drawing did highlight the slightly odd breast shape on the bar girl as I couldn't explain it with words without sounding bad. 
I found when I tried B6 (10mg) at WBTB, that the dream (even a lucid one) was odd. I would get 'inertia' or 'pulling' type sensations and the odd strange visual.
With the Menthol I seem to be in a lighter sleep where I notice the vibrations more, etc. I hope to try 2 or 3 lozenges tomorrow morning (Sat) during a WBTB.

----------


## Wolfwood

> Okay just to warn you guys, the recommended amount is 200micrograms per kilo  a day. The fatal amount is anything over 1g per kilo of body weight. So I'm thinking 120g might be a bit too much. Test subjects have reacted with headache, flush, rash, dizziness and hypertension from contact with menthol in a variety of forms, e.g., toothpaste, cigarette smoke, candies and medications. A few other symptoms are severe abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, vertigo, ataxia, drowsiness and coma. Be carefull guys, I dont think you should go over 50g.
> 
> Here a menthol poisoning review Toxicology Module 1st installed Wednesday Nov 15, 2000



50g? We're on mg... me, 120mg. Oh oh, and not 200 mcg lol... that's mentally small. You mean mg, right?

----------


## Alyzarin

> Okay just to warn you guys, the recommended amount is 200micrograms per kilo  a day. The fatal amount is anything over 1g per kilo of body weight. So I'm thinking 120g might be a bit too much. Test subjects have reacted with headache, flush, rash, dizziness and hypertension from contact with menthol in a variety of forms, e.g., toothpaste, cigarette smoke, candies and medications. A few other symptoms are severe abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, vertigo, ataxia, drowsiness and coma. Be carefull guys, I dont think you should go over 50g.
> 
> Here a menthol poisoning review Toxicology Module 1st installed Wednesday Nov 15, 2000



50 g would be an absolutely absurd dose, not to mention 120 g. We're waaaaaaaaaay under that.





> I would believe that menthol causes this if he would do it without alcohol...



It actually has every reason to, it is hallucinogenic. Wolfwood seems to respond very strongly to hallucinogens, so if anyone can bring out that side of menthol, it's him.





> Yeah the vibrations are really cool. They are a really nice feeling. I look forward to more, although when I was younger (late teens) then that type of thing used to scare the crap out of me. I used to get the 'old hag' type nightmares, etc. where you cannot move. (I tend only to work on dreams around WBTB rather than before when it is light.) 
> Yes that dream I had was really great, although not exactly the Moloko bar however! I did do a drawing as an attachment later, however it doesn't do the dream justice as I have used artistic licence, especially regarding the t-shirt, etc. The drawing did highlight the slightly odd breast shape on the bar girl as I couldn't explain it with words without sounding bad. 
> I found when I tried B6 (10mg) at WBTB, that the dream (even a lucid one) was odd. I would get 'inertia' or 'pulling' type sensations and the odd strange visual.
> With the Menthol I seem to be in a lighter sleep where I notice the vibrations more, etc. I hope to try 2 or 3 lozenges tomorrow morning (Sat) during a WBTB.



I get that sleep paralysis stuff, but I've only started having it really happen within the last couple years. It is pretty odd. >.> I saw that attachment, I thought it was cool.  :tongue2: 

That sounds like a pretty nifty effect.  ::content::  I look forward to your results!





> 50g? We're on mg... me, 120mg.



How's that going, anyway?  :tongue2:  Did it level out?

----------


## Wolfwood

> How's that going, anyway?  Did it level out?



Yeah, it hasn't become any more pronounced.. though it hasn't reduced either.

----------


## Alyzarin

Ah, cool.  ::content::  Now we know.  ::rolleyes::  I still wouldn't really recommend using it for anything except as a dream enhancer, though.  :tongue2:  It probably doesn't get too much crazier than that, at least with doses lacking potentially annoying side effects. At least, that would be my guess....

Your dreams better be interesting tonight. >w<

----------


## Wolfwood

> Ah, cool.  Now we know.  I still wouldn't really recommend using it for anything except as a dream enhancer, though.  It probably doesn't get too much crazier than that, at least with doses lacking potentially annoying side effects. At least, that would be my guess....
> 
> Your dreams better be interesting tonight. >w<



Let's bloody hope so -- I'm going to bed now. *waves* Good night.

----------


## Alyzarin

Goodnight, Wolfwood.  ::content::  Bring us some good news!  :Cheeky:

----------


## melanieb

I hope you sleep well. Don't wake up still wobbly and hallucinating.


 :smiley:

----------


## littlezoe

Well, i have to report bad news  :Sad: 

Experiment failed. No, not that way as you would think. So here is how it went:

I fell asleep at around 2AM, so i set my alarm to 5AM, because i couldn't chance a full 5 hours WBTB, since my family likes to make lots of noise in the weekend, so i decided to go with 3 hours instead. I woke up at 5AM, took a single cough drop just to taste it. It was HORRIBLE. That honey-lemon taste is just ughh....
Well whatever, i decided that i still want to test, no matter how bad it tastes, so i took the whole pack, chewing on them as fast as i can... as i finished i almost felt like throwing up because of it... Probably the taste did it :/
I took some salami from the fridge to get rid of that horrible taste from my mouth and went back to bed.

I waited 1 hour 15 minutes in bed while being unable to fall asleep... Not sure if it was because of the hot weather or because of the whole pack of Halls having some weird effect on me, but i just couldn't fall asleep at all. Then after that time i started having a painful stomachache too and had to get up finally...

So sadly that 81,9mg was wasted  :Sad: 

But i won't ever try honey-lemon Halls ever again... ugh...

----------


## Wolfwood

> I took some salami from the fridge to get rid of that horrible taste from my mouth and went back to bed.



LoL you used salami to get rid of the horrible taste. It must've been bad then.  ::lol:: 


My dreams weren't noticeably clearer, nor did I spontaneously become lucid; however, they were full of sex. Not the demonic, dark sort of kind I tend to have.... but just clean and pure. This wasn't just one dream, each of them was rooted in sex and had this purity about them. For me... not my kind of sexual dream hehe.

----------


## littlezoe

> LoL you used salami to get rid of the horrible taste. It must've been bad then.



All i knew was that i had to get rid of that taste and that's what i thought is strong enough, it worked pretty well  :smiley:  I'm sure if i would've not done it, then i would've ended up throwing up for real. I'm not sure why, but this honey-lemon taste just made me feel really sick... I'll never eat one of those ever again.  :Sad: 

I'll just keep to the Negro from now on... starting with 3 at tomorrow's WBTB  :smiley:

----------


## dutchraptor

Okay I have to say it worked for me again. My dream was incredibly long and intresting. It even seems to give my dreams a storyline. Maybe it extends rem periods  :SleepMeditate2:  I dont know. Seems like I'm having more look than you guys.

----------


## Highlander

Here are my results from last night. Wow!
Dad, the Football, and some short dreams - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Retired to bed at 12.18 am
Wake up naturally (5 min before set alarm) at 5.10 am
WBTB period 31 min

Had a stretch after retiring back to bed at 5.41 am
Total lozenges = 4
Menthol = 38.8 mg

Did get a lucid, plus a 'wall of text' regarding dream recall. Lots of reverie and visual scenes in between.  ::D: 


N.B: (^There is even a 'Dutch' association with the dream as well. Perhaps it in regard to this thread and the colour orange.)

----------


## Wolfwood

> Okay I have to say it worked for me again. My dream was incredibly long and intresting. It even seems to give my dreams a storyline. Maybe it extends rem periods  I dont know. Seems like I'm having more look than you guys.







> Here are my results from last night. Wow!
> Dad, the Football, and some short dreams - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
> 
> Retired to bed at 12.18 am
> Wake up naturally (5 min before set alarm) at 5.10 am
> WBTB period 31 min
> 
> Had a stretch after retiring back to bed at 5.41 am
> Total lozenges = 4
> ...



Damn you two and your success! Though I guess mine wasn't technically a failure... it just failed to produce what I desired.

----------


## Highlander

> Damn you two and your success! Though I guess mine wasn't technically a failure... it just failed to produce what I desired.



At least you had sex in yours. I didn't!!! LOL


I still have to flip that poker table and shout "This is Bullsh*t!" as well.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Well, i have to report bad news 
> 
> Experiment failed. No, not that way as you would think. So here is how it went:
> 
> I fell asleep at around 2AM, so i set my alarm to 5AM, because i couldn't chance a full 5 hours WBTB, since my family likes to make lots of noise in the weekend, so i decided to go with 3 hours instead. I woke up at 5AM, took a single cough drop just to taste it. It was HORRIBLE. That honey-lemon taste is just ughh....
> Well whatever, i decided that i still want to test, no matter how bad it tastes, so i took the whole pack, chewing on them as fast as i can... as i finished i almost felt like throwing up because of it... Probably the taste did it :/
> I took some salami from the fridge to get rid of that horrible taste from my mouth and went back to bed.
> 
> I waited 1 hour 15 minutes in bed while being unable to fall asleep... Not sure if it was because of the hot weather or because of the whole pack of Halls having some weird effect on me, but i just couldn't fall asleep at all. Then after that time i started having a painful stomachache too and had to get up finally...
> ...



I'm sorry you went through that, that sucks.  :Sad:  It may have been something in the cough drops, or just the nasty taste that exacerbated the potential stomach discomfort of the cough drops.... Those are actually the ones that I have, the honey-lemon Halls. Now you know why I've been putting off using them again.  ::lol:: 

Even if you're not going to go with the tea, you should probably try to find a better method than the cough drops, if you really do have to eat that many for effect. There are probably ways that would be much easier for your body to handle.





> My dreams weren't noticeably clearer, nor did I spontaneously become lucid; however, they were full of sex. Not the demonic, dark sort of kind I tend to have.... but just clean and pure. This wasn't just one dream, each of them was rooted in sex and had this purity about them. For me... not my kind of sexual dream hehe.



It's too bad that those dreams don't suit your tastes, because that would have been an amazing success for me.  ::chuckle::  Have you considered going the tea route? *push* It's possible that the other chemicals, like menthone, may contribute to its effects as well, and so it may make for a more suitable testing method. At least, since it's known to improve memory, you could see if it effects your vividness at all whereas the cough drops haven't so much.





> Okay I have to say it worked for me again. My dream was incredibly long and intresting. It even seems to give my dreams a storyline. Maybe it extends rem periods  I dont know. Seems like I'm having more look than you guys.



Nice!  ::content::  Given what I know about REM and the receptors menthol works through, it's possible that that's the case... but it's hard to say for sure. I've had that storyline-like effect from a couple other dream enhancers before, it's pretty cool when it happens.  :smiley:  I'm glad you're having success!





> Here are my results from last night. Wow!
> Dad, the Football, and some short dreams - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
> 
> Retired to bed at 12.18 am
> Wake up naturally (5 min before set alarm) at 5.10 am
> WBTB period 31 min
> 
> Had a stretch after retiring back to bed at 5.41 am
> Total lozenges = 4
> ...



The visual scenes you describe sound cool to see. :3 I'm happy it's working out for you!  ::D:  I'm sorry you didn't get laid, though.  ::lol::  Do you think you'll just stay at this consistent dose since it's working for now?





> Damn you two and your success! Though I guess mine wasn't technically a failure... it just failed to produce what I desired.



I like how you can even complain after that.  ::chuckle::  Boohoo, your dreams only had _regular_ sex in them.  :tongue2:

----------


## littlezoe

> Even if you're not going to go with the tea, you should probably try to find a better method than the cough drops, if you really do have to eat that many for effect. There are probably ways that would be much easier for your body to handle.



Well, i can go with the tea, but i don't have that currently at home. Next time i'm going to the city i'll try to find some in a supermarket. But right now i only have the Negro.

... and it's technically not cough drops, but just candy that has a considerably good amount of menthol  :smiley:  So i don't worry about eating more of this. When i was younger there were days when i took a Negro every half an hour or so... i was addicted, lol.

----------


## Alyzarin

Haha, alright, sounds good.  :tongue2:  I'm not really worried about the candy, just the Halls. Those things aren't really designed for daily heroic doses.  ::chuckle:: 

Hmmm.... Maybe you need higher doses than some because your tolerance is so high from all those mint candies?  :Thinking:

----------


## littlezoe

> Haha, alright, sounds good.  I'm not really worried about the candy, just the Halls. Those things aren't really designed for daily heroic doses. 
> 
> Hmmm.... Maybe you need higher doses than some because your tolerance is so high from all those mint candies?



Haha, don't imagine that i was eating them each and every day of my childhood xD There were just some days like that... i'm sure it didn't affect me much.. or at least i think so.

I'm sure this 81,9mg would've done wonders for me, if only i could've fallen asleep  :Sad:

----------


## Alyzarin

> Haha, don't imagine that i was eating them each and every day of my childhood xD There were just some days like that... i'm sure it didn't affect me much.. or at least i think so.
> 
> I'm sure this 81,9mg would've done wonders for me, if only i could've fallen asleep



Alright, I'll take your word for it.  :tongue2: 

Well, there's always next time.  :There, there:  I'm sure the candies will be much easier on you... those cough drops are nasty.  ::madtongue::

----------


## Highlander

> I get that sleep paralysis stuff, but I've only started having it really happen within the last couple years. It is pretty odd. >.> I saw that attachment, I thought it was cool.



Thanks for that.





> The visual scenes you describe sound cool to see. :3 I'm happy it's working out for you!  I'm sorry you didn't get laid, though.  Do you think you'll just stay at this consistent dose since it's working for now?



The scenes were mainly general. Some of the dreams more vivid especially the one regarding Dad and the reflection in the mirror dream. The illustrations I saw are beyond my capability to transcribe accurately at the moment. I need to work on that as they would need to be drawn on waking IMMEDIATELY, but you still run the risk of consciously adding something that isn't there. I would also have to make the difficult decision whether to do the drawing or try for an LD instead. 
It is one of my main goals regarding LD and Art. 70 to 100 percent transcription on waking would be a massive skill to master in it's own right, even if it is at all possible, let alone including the subject of lucid dreaming. But hey, the more opportunities you get, then the better you get. I wanted to LD to help improve my art. However LD is an art in itself.
It (menthol) might be something I can use in future to help me think of new ideas and creations, etc.

I will probably drop down to two, however if there is a window of opportunity this week where I'm doing nothing the next day then I will go for the 'Full Monty' and eat all ten at WBTB. I will bear in mind Littlezoe's bad experience however. 

Sex? Well I can't have everything!  :Sad:

----------


## Wolfwood

@ RobStar; @ Alyzarin (Sex) -- lol alright alright.... perhaps I am complaining about something that I shouldn't.  :tongue2:  Though success for me would be enhanced vividness and clarity, a spontaneous lucid, or utter madness and intensity.





> It's too bad that those dreams don't suit your tastes, because that would have been an amazing success for me.  Have you considered going the tea route? *push* It's possible that the other chemicals, like menthone, may contribute to its effects as well, and so it may make for a more suitable testing method. At least, since it's known to improve memory, you could see if it effects your vividness at all whereas the cough drops haven't so much.



*attacked by peer pressure...forced into tea route*

Yeah, I'll try the tea route then. Anyone got any idea on the menthol content derived from a cup of peppermint tea?

----------


## Alyzarin

> Thanks for that.
> 
> The scenes were mainly general. Some of the dreams more vivid especially the one regarding Dad and the reflection in the mirror dream. The illustrations I saw are beyond my capability to transcribe accurately at the moment. I need to work on that as they would need to be drawn on waking IMMEDIATELY, but you still run the risk of consciously adding something that isn't there. I would also have to make the difficult decision whether to do the drawing or try for an LD instead. 
> It is one of my main goals regarding LD and Art. 70 to 100 percent transcription on waking would be a massive skill to master in it's own right, even if it is at all possible, let alone including the subject of lucid dreaming. But hey, the more opportunities you get, then the better you get. I wanted to LD to help improve my art. However LD is an art in itself.
> It (menthol) might be something I can use in future to help me think of new ideas and creations, etc.
> 
> I will probably drop down to two, however if there is a window of opportunity this week where I'm doing nothing the next day then I will go for the 'Full Monty' and eat all ten at WBTB. I will bear in mind Littlezoe's bad experience however. 
> 
> Sex? Well I can't have everything!



You're welcome.  ::content::  I'm glad you like the menthol so much! It makes me happy that good things are actually coming out of this. n_n I know what you mean with the art, I'd really like to draw my lucids too but there's so much detail and so much realism... I don't have nearly the skills for it. I look forward to seeing the drawings you post in the future.  :smiley: 

Ah, cool. Hehe, good luck with that. You might want to make sure your stomach can handle it that day, don't go eating too many greasy foods or anything.  ::chuckle::  But if you do then I'll be awaiting your results.  :tongue2: 





> @ RobStar; @ Alyzarin (Sex) -- lol alright alright.... perhaps I am complaining about something that I shouldn't.  Though success for me would be enhanced vividness and clarity, a spontaneous lucid, or utter madness and intensity.



I'm sure you'll get that in time.  :tongue2:  The libido aspect is one of my favorite parts so far, so I'd love to have your dreams. Come to think of it, the sex-related dream it gave me so far was really pure and romantic-feeling too.... You know, they say phenethylamine is the love chemical.  ::rolleyes:: 





> *attacked by peer pressure...forced into tea route*
> 
> Yeah, I'll try the tea route then. Anyone got any idea on the menthol content derived from a cup of peppermint tea?



Awesome.  ::D:  I'm not sure exactly on the figures, but I'm sure it can vary a lot like most plants. I'm thinking I'll start with 2 or 3 cups, at most, and see where that gets me.

----------


## Highlander

> You're welcome.  I'm glad you like the menthol so much! It makes me happy that good things are actually coming out of this. n_n I know what you mean with the art, I'd really like to draw my lucids too but there's so much detail and so much realism... I don't have nearly the skills for it. I look forward to seeing the drawings you post in the future.



It does take practice I admit. The hardest part is starting. You don't have to be a great 'artist' as long as you get the ideas and inspiration whether you put them down on paper or on a computer is up to you.
I will definitely try to put the drawings on in future. Thanks.






> Ah, cool. Hehe, good luck with that. You might want to make sure your stomach can handle it that day, don't go eating too many greasy foods or anything.  But if you do then I'll be awaiting your results.



Yes, I worry about that one! I will let you know how I get on. 
I'm sure it will be a heck of a ride inside my head, (or stomach!)  ::-P: 








> I'm sure you'll get that in time.  The libido aspect is one of my favorite parts so far, so I'd love to have your dreams. Come to think of it, the sex-related dream it gave me so far was really pure and romantic-feeling too.... You know, they say phenethylamine is the love chemical.



Isn't that one of the chemicals found in chocolate which makes it so appealing?

----------


## melanieb

> When i was younger there were days when i took a Negro every half an hour or so... i was addicted, lol.




English is such a funny language.


In America this means something totally different.   


I applaud your efforts on the menthol experiment.   :smiley:

----------


## Wolfwood

^ I'm surprised I made no comment on that.





> When i was younger there were days when i took a Negro every half an hour or so... i was addicted, lol.




Made her sound like a bit of a prozzy.  ::chuckle:: 





> I'm sure you'll get that in time.  The libido aspect is one of my favorite parts so far, so I'd love to have your dreams. Come to think of it, the sex-related dream it gave me so far was really pure and romantic-feeling too.... You know, they say phenethylamine is the love chemical.



Interesting.... so it likely was the menthol then, and not some odd coincidence. Yeah... the dreams felt innocent and devoid of raging testosterone; a sort of graceful act.

----------


## littlezoe

> In America this means something totally different.



Well, i'm not american, so you are to blame if you took it that way  :wink2: 

At first i didn't even realize that Negro can be understood another way... but well... o.o

----------


## melanieb

I didn't take it that way. Just pointing out how odd a language English is.

Though your capitalization of the word is curious. I wouldn't think you would do so if it was just describing a color or attribute.


Anyway, I'm glad you're participating in this effort. It really will be helpful to the DV community.

----------


## littlezoe

> I didn't take it that way. Just pointing out how odd a language English is.
> 
> Though your capitalization of the word is curious. I wouldn't think you would do so if it was just describing a color or attribute.
> 
> 
> Anyway, I'm glad you're participating in this effort. It really will be helpful to the DV community.



Yes, i thought the capitalization helps too. After all that's the name of the candy, so it's capitalized, i couldn't write it with lowercase letter  :tongue2:  Just like Halls or Kinder or whatever else.

I'm glad to help test things out... and this is something that even i can do, since menthol is mostly easy to get some of... not like if there maybe would be some tests with drugs, since i can't get stuff like that.  :smiley:

----------


## Alyzarin

> Isn't that one of the chemicals found in chocolate which makes it so appealing?



It is in chocolate, but I would doubt how much of an effect it has. Pure phenethylamine is degraded very rapidly by MAO enzymes, meaning that it requires either a very large dose or MAO inhibitors to become active.

Phenethylamine is one of the main points of this experiment.  ::rolleyes::  My guess on why menthol works involved kappa-opioid receptors increasing the release of natural phenethylamine in the brain.

----------


## Highlander

I thought as much. I did read, or hear about it somewhere a while back which is quite interesting. It is one of those chemical names you don't easily forget.

Talking of the menthol I'm hoping to try two lozenges in the morning tomorrow. I went out this afternoon to my local shop where for the measily sum of 60 pence sterling I got my hot little hands on another pack.  ::D:  I felt a little sheepish about it. lol. Little did the shop guy know that it was in aid of 'science'. cough..cough. (...Or a Viagra substitute?)  ::chuckle::  

I will have to look out for some Peppermint Tea to try as well.

----------


## Alyzarin

It is pretty interesting.  :smiley: 

Alright, sounds good!  ::content::  Hahaha, I'm sure they're unsuspecting for now, but pretty soon when everyone's going out and buying huge amounts of cough drops they'll start to question every customer they've ever had.  :tongue2:  And heh, Viagra substitute... that sounds pretty accurate so far. X)

----------


## Alyzarin

Bwahahaha! The peppermint tea is mine!  :mwahaha: 



Now I'm back in the game.  :Shades wink:

----------


## Highlander

> Bwahahaha! The peppermint tea is mine! 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm back in the game.



You are such a tease!  :Off to Bed:

----------


## littlezoe

Uhm... i totally forgot to set a WBTB alarm today....  ::roll:: 


Aly: That "Pure Peppermint" sounds encouraging  :tongue2:

----------


## Mindraker

_I was discussing this in the IRC chat last night.  I've had large amounts of menthol cough drops in the past (when I was ill), with no particular dream side effects that I can remember.

I took one last night, and let it slowly dissolve.  Now, I do have to say that I brushed my teeth after I took the menthol cough drop.

I didn't notice any difference in my dreams.  However, I did notice that my throat and chest were "numb" much faster than normal -- I have a little pacemaker device that connects to the nerves in my throat, so I'm usually very aware of the device activating when I'm trying to fall asleep.

But I found that my throat and chest were rather relaxed and numb, and I fell asleep faster._

----------


## Wolfwood

I stopped the menthol, and then spontaneously became lucid. Again, difficult to separate it from coincidence.

----------


## Highlander

Last night's dreams. (Wall of text!)
Anxiety dreams, the House and the Factory, etc. - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

July 8th 2012

Retired for bed at 12.25 am
Woke up via Alarm at 5.15 am
Back to bed at 5.43 am
WBTB period 18 min

Lozenges x3
Menthol = 29.1 mg

Sorry if there are any mistakes. I haven't had much time to proof read as I have got to go straight out now.
I did get a lot of visuals, etc. I took a long time to drop off initially. Had to strip off as I got too warm in bed!  :Oops: 
A lot of dreams (non-lucid) where one was quite vivid. Not 100% with the exact scene order as I had to note it down in the morning using keywords, etc. So I might have got one or two scenes mixed up?

As Dutchraptor and you state there is more storylines. I put this down to the Menthol, the light sleep & the vividness of the dream. I.E:The more vivid = More recall.

----------


## Alyzarin

Well, I actually had a pretty nifty night. I drank one cup of peppermint tea as a starter dose, not expecting too much, and the effect was lesser for me than multiple cough drops but it was definitely there, so I'll probably push it up to two cups tonight. I'll write my DJ entry in a minute so I can put it here.  ::content:: 





> Uhm... i totally forgot to set a WBTB alarm today.... 
> 
> 
> Aly: That "Pure Peppermint" sounds encouraging



Haha, it happens.  :tongue2:  And I know, I thought it was a good brand to choose.  ::rolleyes::  (Also, it has like 5 more tea bags for half the price of the only other one they have lol.)





> I was discussing this in the IRC chat last night.  I've had large amounts of menthol cough drops in the past (when I was ill), with no particular dream side effects that I can remember.
> 
> I took one last night, and let it slowly dissolve.  Now, I do have to say that I brushed my teeth _after_ I took the menthol cough drop.
> 
> I didn't notice any difference in my dreams.  However, I did notice that my throat and chest were "numb" much faster than normal -- I have a little pacemaker device that connects to the nerves in my throat, so I'm usually very aware of the device activating when I'm trying to fall asleep.
> 
> But I found that my throat and chest were rather relaxed and numb, and I fell asleep _faster_.



Well, it's possible that it just works better for some than others. Not every dream enhancer works for everyone.  ::whyme::  I am glad that it helped you get to sleep faster, though.  :smiley:  Have you ever tried peppermint tea? I've heard of it being used for that purpose, too, it's fairly relaxing. It may help with vividness where the cough drops have failed, as well.





> I stopped the menthol, and then spontaneously became lucid. Again, difficult to separate it from coincidence.



Or maybe, it was those long-term effects having finally stacked up and become ready to reveal themselves?  ::D:  Or maybe you just got lucid, whatever.  ::chuckle::  It can be hard to say when some of us already become lucid somewhat regularly, but did you notice anything different or enhanced about the dream?





> Last night's dreams. (Wall of text!)
> Anxiety dreams, the House and the Factory, etc. - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
> 
> July 8th 2012
> 
> Retired for bed at 12.25 am
> Woke up via Alarm at 5.15 am
> Back to bed at 5.43 am
> WBTB period 18 min
> ...



Hehehehe, that one dream.... The consequences of messing around with a libido enhancer, eh?  ::lol::  I got some cool visuals myself last night with the tea.  ::content::  And I'm glad you're getting the storyline effect, it's always been one of my favorite dream aid effects. It can really make things more interesting.  :smiley:

----------


## Alyzarin

Alright, here's what I got for last night, from one cup of peppermint tea. Not too bad, if I do say so myself.  ::chuckle::  The lucid still had the same kind of ending as they have each time....

DJ Entry - PSO2 Just Got Even Better, Taking Off My Robe





> Supplement Dose: 1 cup Peppermint Tea
> 
> *#1 - PSO2 Just Got Even Better* [Non-Lucid]
> 
> All I remember about the first part of the dream was JRE asking me if I was checking him out, because he said that he could tell when people had "the eyes", or something like that. I wasn't checking him out, though.  My memory skips forward a bit, and now I'm hanging out with JB. We're talking about Phantasy Star Online 2 (though it's not even remotely correct in its design) and playing what I believe is a demo. It has all the same menu structures as the original Phantasy Star Online, and I ask JB if he transferred over his character from Phantasy Star Universe. (Which isn't how it works. ) I was looking through my character's inventory during this and noticing that I had tons of really badass weapons, especially swords, and one of them was called Snake Beater, which I thought was pretty cool at the time.  (A Phantom Brave reference.) We're apparently playing the game in some kind of warehouse, and the cool part is, whenever I was looking at these weapons they would actually spawn right next to us.  They looked soooo cool, lots of them were dark neon colors or had black shadowy auras, and stuff like that.... So awesome. >w< JB takes all of this in, then turns to me and asks if I've been laid yet. Fuck you, JB.  Then I woke up.
> 
> Soon after I rolled over to get to sleep again, I heard a somewhat loud banging noise. I actually used to get these a lot, whenever I would be entering sleep paralysis, but they haven't happened in a long time and it startled me awake. I was also getting very vivid hypnagogic stuff. Very mentholy.
> 
> _Dream Fragment_ - Someone else and I were out back at my pool, and as we drew in the water with our hands, waves of glowing rainbow patterns would burst out from where we touched and hold their form for a minute. Whoever I was with (I think it was a guy, but that's about all I can remember) drew a heart shape in water, and I watched it as the patterns formed together. It looked so romantic. 
> ...

----------


## Mindraker

_





 Originally Posted by Alyzarin


Well, it's possible that it just works better for some than others. Not every dream enhancer works for everyone.  I am glad that it helped you get to sleep faster, though.  Have you ever tried peppermint tea? I've heard of it being used for that purpose, too, it's fairly relaxing.



Is peppermint tea caffeine-free?  If so, I might just try it.  I *vaguely* remember my mom trying something like dissolving a peppermint candy in a cup of tea a long time ago for the flavor (I doubt if this is the same thing, ha ha.)_

----------


## Alyzarin

> Is peppermint tea caffeine-free?  If so, I might just try it.  I *vaguely* remember my mom trying something like dissolving a peppermint candy in a cup of tea a long time ago for the flavor (I doubt if this is the same thing, ha ha.)



Mine is, and they usually will be, I'd say. It should say on the box, as well.  :smiley:  And hehe, yeah, I'm not sure if that's exactly the same, but it does sound like a fun idea.  :tongue2:

----------


## dutchraptor

Today I changed my drink a little, now it contains fresh mint, blueberry leaves and wild strawberries. Lets see if it makes a difference.

----------


## Highlander

Yeah that one dream of mine I think you are eluding to was quite 'bizzare' and a bit sexual as such? Still very interesting however.
I forgot to add the part to the journal where upon finally waking at 8.50 am that I felt mentally tired due to all the visuals, etc. 

Your dreams were great especially the robe one where you were lucid, etc. Sounds really cool!  ::bowdown::  Yes I think when the emotions kick in then there is a high chance or possibility of waking up as I found with my bar dream the other night. I think you will crack it however.
Me? Well I'm still only a learner really as I need to work on my control now that I get regular lucids.

I will have to see what tomorrow brings whether to attempt a WBTB as I have had a bit of a stressful afternoon. It depends how I feel tomorrow as I have got to sort things out tomorrow morning as well.  :Sad: 
I will still set the alarm however, quite early. Same time and all that.  ::mrgreen:: 

Who needs to buy '50 Shades of Grey' when we can read Alyzarin's DJ.  :Shades wink:

----------


## isthisit

This is a really interesting thread, I found some menthol sweets in my bathroom cabinet. The packet states they are MENTHOL but doesn't say how much per sweet. I'm gonna take 1 tonight, 2 tomorrow, 3 the next, and see if it makes a difference. Will be great if it really works!

----------


## Highlander

> This is a really interesting thread, I found some menthol sweets in my bathroom cabinet. The packet states they are MENTHOL but doesn't say how much per sweet. I'm gonna take 1 tonight, 2 tomorrow, 3 the next, and see if it makes a difference. Will be great if it really works!



Yes, you should be ok. Start small, make sure you are not sensitive or allergic, etc. as they have other additives apart from the Menthol in them. I tried mine during WBTB on an empty stomach. I have recorded my procedure in some of my posts on this thread. Also in my DJ for the last few days I have thoroughly noted and recorded my findings which might help? 
I did find I had slight trouble with my stomach regarding gastric wind due to the ingestion, etc. but it wasn't major. However I did find that I found it hard to get back to sleep even after a short WBTB. I seemed to sleep lighter but got good to excellent results in MY case. Note: You are not 'guaranteed' lucid dreams however, but I found my recall and vividness increased which makes the opportunity of an LD more likely. You would still need the 'awareness' factor though, either via your dreamsigns, your RC's, etc. Good luck.

(P.S: Is there a 'Don't consume more than '_X_' packets printed anywhere? What Brand or manufacturer are they?)

Get Suckin'!

----------


## isthisit

> Yes, you should be ok. Start small, make sure you are not sensitive or allergic, etc. as they have other additives apart from the Menthol in them. I tried mine during WBTB on an empty stomach. I have recorded my procedure in some of my posts on this thread. Also in my DJ for the last few days I have thoroughly noted and recorded my findings which might help? 
> I did find I had slight trouble with my stomach regarding gastric wind due to the ingestion, etc. but it wasn't major. However I did find that I found it hard to get back to sleep even after a short WBTB. I seemed to sleep lighter but got good to excellent results in MY case. Note: You are not 'guaranteed' lucid dreams however, but I found my recall and vividness increased which makes the opportunity of an LD more likely. You would still need the 'awareness' factor though, either via your dreamsigns, your RC's, etc. Good luck.
> 
> (P.S: Is there a 'Don't consume more than '_X_' packets printed anywhere? What Brand or manufacturer are they?)
> 
> Get Suckin'!



Cool thanks dude, appreciate it. It Jakemans blackcurrant menthol sweets - the packets says nothing about them really?! made by Jakemans sweets (boston, england)

just had one, they taste nice!

also,




> Get Suckin'!



lol

----------


## Wolfwood

> Alright, here's what I got for last night, from one cup of peppermint tea. Not too bad, if I do say so myself.  The lucid still had the same kind of ending as they have each time....
> 
> DJ Entry - PSO2 Just Got Even Better, Taking Off My Robe



Seems like you had a lot of fun.... but were then afflicted with the bane of pleasure in lucid dreams: world collapse from 'emotional' intensity. Always happens at the best part. Always. >.<

I didn't notice anything strange about my dream... 'cept I became lucid from a sexual act. And I'd certainly not say it was pure and graceful. The main thing is, I don't tend to have sexual dreams every bloody night.... which therefore gives credibility to the menthol having some effect.

----------


## Tekeydie

if you are male i suggest you not drink to much peppermint tea. i was reading a study a while back about the effects of peppermint tea on woman with poly ovarian syndrome. Drinking too much can reduce testosterone levels(though of a specific kind of testosterone). I know little about chemistry (I hated my teacher to much to pay attention sadly) but heres the link for you guys to check out. 
Mint Tea Warning

And a side note, vegetarians shouldnt drink to much tea either because the tannins can interfere with iron absorption from plan foods. 
I have some peppermint growing in the back to I might start drinking it again(was saving up for winter  :Cheeky: ) and maybe put some essential oil in a oil warmer thingy.

----------


## Mindraker

_





 Originally Posted by Tekeydie


if you are male i suggest you not drink to much peppermint tea.



I think tea is a diuretic.  In my life I've experienced this side effect far less than with a cup of coffee.  If I need to "move my intestines along", I'd go with a cup of coffee, rather than Mom's tea._

----------


## TheForgotten

Well I have a packet with like ... 30 cough drops in it... that I haven't touched since I bought it 3 days ago.  I look at it before going to bed and I'm just like.... bleh.... for a number of reasons.  So I'm inconsistent and also playing with a variety of energy drinks/pills in addition to not taking cough drops on a regular basis.  I'm trying to find something that works so that I stop sleeping so much since my plate of responsibilities is quickly overflowing... so I can't exactly NOT take those extra things.  I mean I could, it would just require twice the effort I'm currently putting out.  It doesn't make sense to stop those things.

OK!  So I notice Mindraker mentioned being able to fall asleep faster with cough drops.  I experienced the same thing.  After ~1 hr ingesting 30 mg of cough drops it seemed to serve as a relaxant.  That and each time I had pretty happy dreaming.... which coincides with what Wolfwood seemed to have experienced (pure sex).  Except mine didn't involve sex... so maybe we each are served what we most want  :tongue2:  

Aly!  Do you think you could create a template for all of us to fill out so that we can look at results across a number of factors?  Everyone is kinda just doing their own reports, which is fine and dandy, but I'd like to see something more informative and focused... unless I'm the only one who cares, then it doesn't matter.  

As chaotic as this all is, it's pretty interesting reading the results everyone seems to have experienced.  

I'm so upset Littlezoe couldn't fall asleep after eating an entire pack!  Although, I've eaten half a pack once (when I had a bad cough a long time ago) and got incredibly sick from it.  So, yeah, I have no plans of doing anything remotely like that ever again.  Such a shame it didn't work xD

----------


## Wolfwood

> That and each time I had pretty happy dreaming.... which coincides with what Wolfwood seemed to have experienced (pure sex).  Except mine didn't involve sex... so maybe we each are served what we most want



Ey, ey. Who knows, eh. Who knows.  ::rolleyes::  What were you served?

----------


## TheForgotten

You can pretend all you want.  You can't bullshit a bullshitter.   :tongue2:

----------


## Wolfwood

You bastard. Pretty obvious though, right?  :wink2:

----------


## TheForgotten

> What were you served?



1st time I was at the beach, wind surfing and jumping off surfboards >.>  lol

2nd time I was toying with an overweight Asian man who had kidnapped me.  Well, I wouldn't call it a real kidnapping... it was poorly done, I'd have done it much better if roles were reversed.  Anyway, I'll refrain from critiquing his methods and just add that I was killed at the end of it all because I let it get out of hand.  Although I did enjoy it!  I mean, who doesn't enjoy playing with deviant minds, right?

----------


## littlezoe

So i took 3 Negros before going back to bed at WBTB today. I'm not exactly sure if it's relevant, but i got a long lucid today, which was even somewhat weird  ::D: 

Long Lucid: Underwater Attempt, Lots of Stuff Done, Failed TotM - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

I can't tell if the Negro did it or not... but i'll definitely try it again tomorrow  :smiley: 

The only problem i have with this is that i have to eat the Negros fast to not prolong the WBTB duration too much... but i can't taste them well enough this way xD

----------


## Wolfwood

> 1st time I was at the beach, wind surfing and jumping off surfboards >.>  lol
> 
> 2nd time I was toying with an overweight Asian man who had kidnapped me.  Well, I wouldn't call it a real kidnapping... it was poorly done, I'd have done it much better if roles were reversed.  Anyway, I'll refrain from critiquing his methods and just add that I was killed at the end of it all because I let it get out of hand.  Although I did enjoy it!  I mean, who doesn't enjoy playing with deviant minds, right?



Are you saying you really like the idea of being kidnapped?  :tongue2:  Interesting.

----------


## Mindraker

_





 Originally Posted by Kaomea


OK!  So I notice Mindraker mentioned being able to fall asleep faster with cough drops.  I experienced the same thing.  After ~1 hr ingesting 30 mg of cough drops it seemed to serve as a relaxant.  That and each time I had pretty happy dreaming.... which coincides with what Wolfwood seemed to have experienced (pure sex).  Except mine didn't involve sex... so maybe we each are served what we most want  



That is interesting.  I certainly find the tablets "soothing" for the throat, at the very least.  I think that's the whole point of the tablets, after all -- they _are_ cough drops, meant to have that effect.  I'd find it interesting if they contributed to my dreams, somehow.  

What triggered the effect on your dreams?  Was it the residual flavour in your mouth?  Was it your brain processing the idea of "taste" before you slept?  Was it your throat being involved with it somehow?  Was it the sucky-sucky-sucky motion on the tablet?  What was unique about this tablet that would be different from, say, sucking on a piece of candy?

Would you get the same dream effect if you *chewed* the tablet as opposed to *sucking* on the tablet?_

----------


## TheForgotten

> Are you saying you really like the idea of being kidnapped?  Interesting.



Definitely.  I've had long thought out scenarios regarding this.  Ok, I'm kidding, most were half-baked.  Beside the liberation of responsibility, the thing which is most attractive to me is all the one-on-one play time.  I mean, you have their undivided attention... and depending on the reason for the kidnapping (some like personal play toys, some just want to mold, some do a bit of serial killing, some enjoy torture, some sell to other countries, etc etc etc) it can be quite a diverse mental environment to navigate.  I mean, a real challenge.  How long will you survive?  At what limits are you willing to push yourself to escape.... are you willing to kill?  How badly are you willing to hurt until you wish you were dead?  How long can you keep your kidnapper entertained before they decide to be rid of you?  I mean, the personal growth can be tremendous.  Assuming you live of course.  

But then if you die..... that's an entirely different journey.





> What triggered the effect on your dreams?  Was it the residual flavour in your mouth?  Was it your brain processing the idea of "taste" before you slept?  Was it your throat being involved with it somehow?  Was it the sucky-sucky-sucky motion on the tablet?  What was unique about this tablet that would be different from, say, sucking on a piece of candy?
> 
> Would you get the same dream effect if you *chewed* the tablet as opposed to *sucking* on the tablet?



I'm not sure what triggered the effect.  I mean, I've been downing Rockstars on a daily basis and those have tons of stuff in them.  I'm also taking multi-vitamins and an occasional caffeine-like pill thing for more energy.  Sort of praying I don't die from a heart attack.  So who knows what triggered any of it.. but...

The taste sucked.  I brush my teeth after sucking on them.  I don't think anything was different about this than sucking on a piece of candy.  Although I eat all three drops at the same time since it sucks... candies I'll do one at a time because they don't suck.  

Not sure if it would be different if I chewed them... and considering that they're a little hard, I don't want to chip a tooth :\  Maybe I'll try swallowing them whole.  I should probably draw a better baseline though before I start doing all sorts of different things though... and drawing a baseline might be difficult.

----------


## Wolfwood

> Definitely.  I've had long thought out scenarios regarding this.  Ok, I'm kidding, most were half-baked.  Beside the liberation of responsibility, the thing which is most attractive to me is all the one-on-one play time.  I mean, you have their undivided attention... and depending on the reason for the kidnapping (some like personal play toys, some just want to mold, some do a bit of serial killing, some enjoy torture, some sell to other countries, etc etc etc) it can be quite a diverse mental environment to navigate.  I mean, a real challenge.  How long will you survive?  At what limits are you willing to push yourself to escape.... are you willing to kill?  How badly are you willing to hurt until you wish you were dead?  How long can you keep your kidnapper entertained before they decide to be rid of you?  I mean, the personal growth can be tremendous.  Assuming you live of course.  
> 
> But then if you die..... that's an entirely different journey.



*uses the same word again* Interesting *but adds in a few nods*  :Nod yes: 

You're very much into the psychology behind it... is this non-sexual enjoyment, some sort of self-actualization, a cleverly shrouded interest in submissive roles, or what?






> Or maybe, it was those long-term effects having finally stacked up and become ready to reveal themselves?  Or maybe you just got lucid, whatever.  It can be hard to say when some of us already become lucid somewhat regularly, but did you notice anything different or enhanced about the dream?




My dreams last night were largely comprised of sexual activities, were quite mundane, and lacked enhanced vividness. This is the second or third day without menthol after consuming 'large' amounts.... so this could be the upregulation effect. Though, I'm not sure how its absence would cause an _increase in sexual dreams_. So far, since taking menthol and then stopping, I've seen a clear increase in sexual dreams (both when taking it and not); however, all other reported effects were largely inconsistent.

I'm trying to determine whether there's some co-factor that's actually caused the increase in sexual dreams... hmm. But nothing comes to mind -- haven't been abstaining or the like.

----------


## isthisit

Ok, so last night I took 1 of the 'Menthol' sweets by Jakemans Boston, England. Don't know of the menthol quantity BUT, although I didn't have a lucid dream as such, I got lucid a few times and woke up instantly. These were mostly during slipping in / out of sleep consciousness (a bit of lazy WILDing) and were not quite fully formed dreams. This morning I had one dream where I became lucid, but woke up instantly. 

Will try 2 sweets tonight. 

For the record they taste yummy  :smiley:

----------


## Mindraker

_





 Originally Posted by Kaomea


Not sure if it would be different if I chewed them... and considering that they're a little hard, I don't want to chip a tooth :\  Maybe I'll try swallowing them whole.  I should probably draw a better baseline though before I start doing all sorts of different things though... and drawing a baseline might be difficult.



A-ha, thank you for your reply.  This specific is interesting -- your tablets seem to be different than mine.  Mine are old, sticky, even such that they stick somewhat to the paper and will even attract ants if I don't have them in a plastic container.

The baseline idea is a good idea;  I think I used such a low quantity that it might not have much of an effect on me.  After all, I have a good metabolism and drink lots of water -- so I wouldn't be surprised if whatever got rapidly flushed out by my digestive system if I only took one tablet._

----------


## TheForgotten

> *uses the same word again* Interesting *but adds in a few nods*
> 
> You're very much into the psychology behind it... is this non-sexual enjoyment, some sort of self-actualization, a cleverly shrouded interest in submissive roles, or what?



*pulls out a plushy couch to recline on and continues*
It is all of the above.  In simple terms, it's fun to me.  Whether it turns sexual, non-sexual, self-actualization, or even playing a subby role.  I don't care too much about controlling what direction things turn, I just enjoy changing the directions.  Inflicting change... and then seeing where the change goes... and then behaving accordingly.  

What about kidnapping do you find attractive?  Here, you can use my couch.

----------


## Highlander

I took 3 Honey and Lem's this morning. Total = 29.1mg
Managed a lucid, although I didn't think I initially would.

The Weather, an Alsatian and the Phone Box - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views






> The only problem i have with this is that i have to eat the Negros fast to not prolong the WBTB duration too much... but i can't taste them well enough this way xD



Yeah I know what you mean. I have exactly the same problem.

----------


## Wolfwood

> *pulls out a plushy couch to recline on and continues*
> It is all of the above.  In simple terms, it's fun to me.  Whether it turns sexual, non-sexual, self-actualization, or even playing a subby role.  I don't care too much about controlling what direction things turn, I just enjoy changing the directions.  Inflicting change... and then seeing where the change goes... and then behaving accordingly.  
> 
> What about kidnapping do you find attractive?  Here, you can use my couch.



I'll stand, thanks. *meanders up and down the room...*

...Nothing inherent in kidnapping, but am more so intrigued by the character of those who'd enjoy being kidnapped. To me, it rings alarm bells of a submissive person... one who likes to be out of control, isolated, taunted, and likes the intensity of not knowing what'll happen next. I like that character, if true,... because I'd pretty much like being the opposite. Plus, I'm sure the kidnapped woman would be damned angry and attempt to attack me on occasion -- I like that. I wouldn't say control, so much as dominance though... control doesn't feel right. I like the dynamic nature of power in dominance/submissive.



I'll buy the peppermint tea today -- I hope I have some decent success. Spontaneous lucids would be nice because I'm too lazy currently to WBTB... >_> Then maybe I can choose to do something else in my dreams beside engage in sex (simply because it always lets you down at the best part, and significantly shortens the dream). Wish I knew roughly how much mg of menthol is derived from the tea after consumption though.

----------


## TheForgotten

> I wouldn't say control, so much as dominance though... control doesn't feel right. I like the dynamic nature of power in dominance/submissive.



Ah yes.  So you mean you'd prefer being in control versus controlling.  Dominant/submissive relationships can be fun, no argument there.  





> I'll buy the peppermint tea today -- I hope I have some decent success. Spontaneous lucids would be nice because I'm too lazy currently to WBTB... >_> Then maybe I can choose to do something else in my dreams beside engage in sex (simply because it always lets you down at the best part, and significantly shortens the dream). Wish I knew roughly how much mg of menthol is derived from the tea after consumption though.



Seems a few people are wondering that.  Might be useful to also consider how long you all will be steeping your tea.


Negative Effects of Eating Too Much Mint seems to have this to say, not sure how valid or reputable the site is but it's something to consider.




> Does Eating too much Mint have Side Effects?
> 
> Though mint is a widely used herb, it is safe only when consumed in small amount and for a short duration. Mint leaves are used in preparing mint tea, one of the most popular herbal teas consumed worldwide. It has been used for several years due to its various health benefits. It cures indigestion. The potent smell of mint helps to relieve headache as well. But consuming the tea excessively can cause various health problems. Drinking peppermint tea can cause skin irritation, flushing (reddening of the skin), headache, irritated mucous membrane and heart burn. Menthol is one of the active chemicals in the tea, and can cause throat closure in small children and adults. A person who has asthma should avoid the use of food products containing mint. Women who are pregnant or nursing a baby should strictly avoid consumption of mint tea. Taking mint tea during pregnancy may lead to a miscarriage. Applying peppermint oil on a child's face can lead to severe breathing problems.
> 
> To avoid negative effects of mint, one should take it in recommended dosage. Both peppermint and spearmint are available in capsules, tonic, tea and oil form. Experts discourage use of spearmint and recommend peppermint instead. Following are the prescribed doses for peppermint:
> 
> As Tea: Soak 1 tsp of dried peppermint leaves in a cup of boiling water for at least ten minutes and cool it. Drink this two to three times daily between meals.

----------


## Highlander

> Cool thanks dude, appreciate it. It Jakemans blackcurrant menthol sweets - the packets says nothing about them really?! made by Jakemans sweets (boston, england)
> 
> just had one, they taste nice!
> 
> also,
> 
> 
> lol



Just googled the name. I know the 'berry' (no sugar ones) are 5mg (per sweet.) Couldn't find the info. regarding yours.
From what I read, they sound like "The Dog's Boll*cks", (a _'proper'_ sweet that will put hairs on your chest, etc.) Plus I think you can buy a cheap pack of them in Boots.

----------


## Alyzarin

Oh man, so much to respond to. >w<





> Yeah that one dream of mine I think you are eluding to was quite 'bizzare' and a bit sexual as such? Still very interesting however.
> I forgot to add the part to the journal where upon finally waking at 8.50 am that I felt mentally tired due to all the visuals, etc. 
> 
> Your dreams were great especially the robe one where you were lucid, etc. Sounds really cool!  Yes I think when the emotions kick in then there is a high chance or possibility of waking up as I found with my bar dream the other night. I think you will crack it however.
> Me? Well I'm still only a learner really as I need to work on my control now that I get regular lucids.
> 
> I will have to see what tomorrow brings whether to attempt a WBTB as I have had a bit of a stressful afternoon. It depends how I feel tomorrow as I have got to sort things out tomorrow morning as well. 
> I will still set the alarm however, quite early. Same time and all that. 
> 
> Who needs to buy '50 Shades of Grey' when we can read Alyzarin's DJ.



Hehe, thanks.  :tongue2:  It was pretty great.  ::chuckle::  I'm sure you'll get used to control soon enough, it comes easily with practice.  :smiley:  And yeah, emotions really can make a dream unstable... but it's possible to overcome, just working up one step at a time. The adrenaline rush of flying used to wake me up instantly, but now it's my most common method of transportation.  ::rolleyes:: 





> This is a really interesting thread, I found some menthol sweets in my bathroom cabinet. The packet states they are MENTHOL but doesn't say how much per sweet. I'm gonna take 1 tonight, 2 tomorrow, 3 the next, and see if it makes a difference. Will be great if it really works!



Awesome! Welcome to the experiment!  ::content:: 





> Seems like you had a lot of fun.... but were then afflicted with the bane of pleasure in lucid dreams: world collapse from 'emotional' intensity. Always happens at the best part. Always. >.<
> 
> I didn't notice anything strange about my dream... 'cept I became lucid from a sexual act. And I'd certainly not say it was pure and graceful. The main thing is, I don't tend to have sexual dreams every bloody night.... which therefore gives credibility to the menthol having some effect.



I'll find a way to work around it.  :tongue2:  It's definitely doable, it just takes some practice.  ::D: 

Well that's good then, lol. I have something else to say here, but I'm going to wait for the further-down quote.  ::rolleyes:: 





> OK!  So I notice Mindraker mentioned being able to fall asleep faster with cough drops.  I experienced the same thing.  After ~1 hr ingesting 30 mg of cough drops it seemed to serve as a relaxant.  That and each time I had pretty happy dreaming.... which coincides with what Wolfwood seemed to have experienced (pure sex).  Except mine didn't involve sex... so maybe we each are served what we most want  
> 
> Aly!  Do you think you could create a template for all of us to fill out so that we can look at results across a number of factors?  Everyone is kinda just doing their own reports, which is fine and dandy, but I'd like to see something more informative and focused... unless I'm the only one who cares, then it doesn't matter.  
> 
> As chaotic as this all is, it's pretty interesting reading the results everyone seems to have experienced.



As far as the relaxant thing goes, there are a couple reasons I can think of that menthol would have effects like this, with the first being that it's a local anesthetic and the second being that the kappa-opioid receptor, which is the important one I think for dream enhancement, also has the potential to produce pain-killing effects. So if you are feeling pain-killing effects, that could be a good sign that you're on the right path.  :smiley:  I definitely get the happy dreams thing, mine have been fairly cheery or romantic/sexual every time I've used it so far. "So maybe we each are served what we most want".... Wouldn't that be great for us to have randomly stumbled upon?  ::lol:: 

I'd be up for making a template. I'll try to see what I can scrounge together.... I may PM you for peer editing.  :tongue2: 





> So i took 3 Negros before going back to bed at WBTB today. I'm not exactly sure if it's relevant, but i got a long lucid today, which was even somewhat weird 
> 
> Long Lucid: Underwater Attempt, Lots of Stuff Done, Failed TotM - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
> 
> I can't tell if the Negro did it or not... but i'll definitely try it again tomorrow 
> 
> The only problem i have with this is that i have to eat the Negros fast to not prolong the WBTB duration too much... but i can't taste them well enough this way xD



That was a pretty awesome dream.  ::chuckle::  I wonder if or how much the menthol was connected? And I wonder if it had anything to do with the waist part?  ::shock::  (Just thinking back to the other thread where the person was getting crazy nightmares lol.) I'm jealous though, my lucids can get pretty cool but they're never that long.  :tongue2: 





> My dreams last night were largely comprised of sexual activities, were quite mundane, and lacked enhanced vividness. This is the second or third day without menthol after consuming 'large' amounts.... so this could be the upregulation effect. Though, I'm not sure how its absence would cause an _increase in sexual dreams_. So far, since taking menthol and then stopping, I've seen a clear increase in sexual dreams (both when taking it and not); however, all other reported effects were largely inconsistent.
> 
> I'm trying to determine whether there's some co-factor that's actually caused the increase in sexual dreams... hmm. But nothing comes to mind -- haven't been abstaining or the like.



That is pretty interesting.... Now, what I was thinking before is, I wonder if the lowering of cAMP is connected to the sexual effects? Or if there's some other long-lasting effect that might be related. Because remember how I said before that taking menthol pre-sleep rather than WBTB might just be causing residual effects due to its short half-life? Well, that lowering of cAMP is pretty much what I was referring to.... I remember reading that it can take a few days to restore totally normal levels. The same thing happens with salvia, and the more you smoke it within a few days usually the stronger it gets. We've all been taking relatively low doses, but with the one you took, on top of using it a few days before that already, you might've built up enough of the effect that your lowered cAMP levels are still having the effect for a few days afterward. That's totally just a theory, but that's what comes to mind. I haven't had the same sexual dreams on the days I didn't take it, so I would imagine if it is the cause it might be something like that.





> Ok, so last night I took 1 of the 'Menthol' sweets by Jakemans Boston, England. Don't know of the menthol quantity BUT, although I didn't have a lucid dream as such, I got lucid a few times and woke up instantly. These were mostly during slipping in / out of sleep consciousness (a bit of lazy WILDing) and were not quite fully formed dreams. This morning I had one dream where I became lucid, but woke up instantly. 
> 
> Will try 2 sweets tonight. 
> 
> For the record they taste yummy



Nice! I get that stuff a lot when I take it too, like it becomes much easier to slip into a dream without having that lapse in consciousness (whether lucid or not), or like the random fleeting almost-dreams that you get while rolling around in bed in the morning are more formed and stable. The first night I took it I had my second WILD through those.  :smiley: 





> I took 3 Honey and Lem's this morning. Total = 29.1mg
> Managed a lucid, although I didn't think I initially would.
> 
> The Weather, an Alsatian and the Phone Box - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views



Alright, question time.... You mentioned a lack of visuals like the ones you'd gotten before. Do you think it was random, or maybe connected to some tolerance building? Like, would you say that it seemed like the effect was lesser? We've been talking about a potential upregulation effect, but we're still in the process of that. It's possible that in at least some, if not all, testers eventually you might want to take a break of a day or two in between some doses to see if the effects bounce back up. If you think it was just a coincidence, then that's fine too... just thought I'd ask since you've been taking it fairly consistently. Another important part of the experiment is to figure out where the limit is.





> Negative Effects of Eating Too Much Mint seems to have this to say, not sure how valid or reputable the site is but it's something to consider.



Thanks for that. I was getting nervous there until I read that the "prescribed" dose is two to three times daily lol. I think we'll be fine, but as I've said, it is best if we approach it with caution and avoid extended high-dose use until we know exactly what we're doing. I think this is also another good reason for people to switch to the tea if they can.... At least we know for it what's "acceptable", and I'm sure there's a lot more documented on the potential side effects and limits of drinking peppermint tea than there are of eating menthol cough drops.

----------


## littlezoe

> That was a pretty awesome dream.  I wonder if or how much the menthol was connected? And I wonder if it had anything to do with the waist part?  (Just thinking back to the other thread where the person was getting crazy nightmares lol.) I'm jealous though, my lucids can get pretty cool but they're never that long.



Thank you ^^ My lucids are not that long usually... even while i had similarly long ones before, but not since i'm on DV, so this was kinda cool. 

That waist part made me think of the menthol as soon as i woke up... my lucids usually don't have blood at all... especially not people and animals cut in half  ::shock:: 
...but for some reason i took it more lightly as i expected at first... maybe because i was looking down at them from above and didn't see them from up close.

But even just the length of the dream made me think of menthol too, that it might be related... i'm not sure if it's just a coincidence that i had this dream on the same day when i took that menthol before falling asleep  :smiley: 


Oh, and this thread is getting more and more better as we share our experiences ^^ I like this thread  ::D:

----------


## Alyzarin

> Thank you ^^ My lucids are not that long usually... even while i had similarly long ones before, but not since i'm on DV, so this was kinda cool. 
> 
> That waist part made me think of the menthol as soon as i woke up... my lucids usually don't have blood at all... especially not people and animals cut in half 
> ...but for some reason i took it more lightly as i expected at first... maybe because i was looking down at them from above and didn't see them from up close.
> 
> But even just the length of the dream made me think of menthol too, that it might be related... i'm not sure if it's just a coincidence that i had this dream on the same day when i took that menthol before falling asleep 
> 
> 
> Oh, and this thread is getting more and more better as we share our experiences ^^ I like this thread



Haha, yeah, it's probably best that you didn't get that scene too up close and personal.  :tongue2:  The person from the other thread did mention that their nightmarish things weren't really scaring them as much as just the intensity and vividness were. Strange....

That could be, that does seem to a commonly reported effect here.  :smiley:  I wonder, too, if it does extend REM periods like postulated before. That could definitely have made it easier for you to do your DEILDs.

I like this thread too!  ::content::  I'm so happy we're actually getting some good experimenting done, it's definitely fun no matter the result.  ::D:

----------


## isthisit

> Awesome! Welcome to the experiment!



Thanks!!





> Just googled the name. I know the 'berry' (no sugar ones) are 5mg (per sweet.) Couldn't find the info. regarding yours.
> From what I read, they sound like "The Dog's Boll*cks", (a _'proper'_ sweet that will put hairs on your chest, etc.) Plus I think you can buy a cheap pack of them in Boots.



And I could do with a few hairs.  :smiley:  Aye, the packet does seem to stress how amazing and good quality they are, being proper sweets lol.

----------


## dutchraptor

Okay guys I have created the ultimate tea mixture incase anyone wants incredible memory recall. Here it goes
- Just green tea
- mint 
- horse chesnut leaves
- ginger
- clary sage essential oil. (optional)

This mix increases not only memory but also awareness and concentration through increasing blood circulation through the brain (Green tea, ginger and horse chestnut leaves) and a few other things. I spent a good while looking up tests on each of these ingredients and they seem to all drastically improve recall. I will report my progress tomorow.

----------


## Highlander

> Thanks!!
> 
> 
> And I could do with a few hairs.  Aye, the packet does seem to stress how amazing and good quality they are, being proper sweets lol.



Join the club! I've only got a few hairs round my little titties! Lol  ::rolleyes:: 






> Alright, question time.... You mentioned a lack of visuals like the ones you'd gotten before. Do you think it was random, or maybe connected to some tolerance building? Like, would you say that it seemed like the effect was lesser? We've been talking about a potential upregulation effect, but we're still in the process of that. It's possible that in at least some, if not all, testers eventually you might want to take a break of a day or two in between some doses to see if the effects bounce back up. If you think it was just a coincidence, then that's fine too... just thought I'd ask since you've been taking it fairly consistently. Another important part of the experiment is to figure out where the limit is.



The imagery I think was *lesser, hence the less recall (as shown in the DJ.) However I did worry about losing time also. (More awake, than asleep - possibility due to the sugars acting as stimulants in my case?)
*It might be due to both reasons, I.e. Random/tolerance with a bit of stress (cortisol and adrenaline) thrown in for good measure. I think stress makes the libido drop as well. It is my 5th WBTB in a row with (IMO) good results, so it would be interesting to see what an effect a day off or two does regarding my recall and imagery levels. I will try this nearer the middle, or end of the week.
If I try a higher dose, probably a little further down the line, then I will have to make sure I wind down or wean myself off in the days after. Maybe drink lots of water before any experiment and afterwards as I wouldn't want to give my kidneys, (brain) or liver too much of a workout!  :Dead Horse: 





> Okay guys I have created the ultimate tea mixture incase anyone wants incredible memory recall. Here it goes
> - Just green tea
> - mint 
> - horse chesnut leaves
> - ginger
> - clary sage essential oil. (optional)
> 
> This mix increases not only memory but also awareness and concentration through increasing blood circulation through the brain (Green tea, ginger and horse chestnut leaves) and a few other things. I spent a good while looking up tests on each of these ingredients and they seem to all drastically improve recall. I will report my progress tomorow.



Let us know how you got on. Maybe you could bottle it and sell it if it works?

----------


## isthisit

2 sweets consumed tonight! Wish me luck!

----------


## Alyzarin

So, this might be an interesting detail to add to the libido/"pure sex" discussion.... It would seem that kappa-opioid agonists increase levels of prolactin. For those who aren't aware, prolactin in a chemical directly opposite to dopamine as far as the chemicals that make sex feel good go. Dopamine is connected to sexual arousal (like getting turned on, or the literal act of having sex, or masturbating, or whatever) and prolactin is connected to sexual gratification (the reason orgasms are so satisfying). Generally, as dopamine levels go up prolactin levels go down, and vice-versa. This makes sense with dynorphins lowering levels of dopamine. Prolactin isn't going to make you feel super horny when you're awake, but when you're in a dream... it's possible that the mind uses the feeling of prolactin to create the pure romantic dream scenarios, or the "clean" sex, or even just the happy dreams, because it puts you in a a satisfied orgasmic mindset, rather than a super horny one.

Interestingly, D2 receptor agonists actually lower prolactin levels, but it's possible that kappa-opioid receptors still release phenethylamine but also release prolactin in higher amounts, generating a net effect of increased levels. There are lots of systems that work like this in the brain, though of course the phenethylamine thing is still speculation (but it seems to fit). It could be that the reason dreams with sexual themes seem to be prevalent with menthol is because D2 activation is still causing an increase in libido (which is does even despite lowering dopamine levels, as dopamine generates some of its sexual effects through this receptor), but the dreams are being made much cleaner by the prolactin release. Conversely, it could just be that increased prolactin levels are enough for to form an association and create the sexually-themed dreams. It's certainly not surprising to me now that my first sexual dream from menthol was about satisfied naked cuddling....





> Okay guys I have created the ultimate tea mixture incase anyone wants incredible memory recall. Here it goes
> - Just green tea
> - mint 
> - horse chesnut leaves
> - ginger
> - clary sage essential oil. (optional)
> 
> This mix increases not only memory but also awareness and concentration through increasing blood circulation through the brain (Green tea, ginger and horse chestnut leaves) and a few other things. I spent a good while looking up tests on each of these ingredients and they seem to all drastically improve recall. I will report my progress tomorow.



That does seem like it'll be a potent mix, from what I know about those plants.  :smiley:  I look forward to your results!





> The imagery I think was *lesser, hence the less recall (as shown in the DJ.) However I did worry about losing time also. (More awake, than asleep - possibility due to the sugars acting as stimulants in my case?)
> *It might be due to both reasons, I.e. Random/tolerance with a bit of stress (cortisol and adrenaline) thrown in for good measure. I think stress makes the libido drop as well. It is my 5th WBTB in a row with (IMO) good results, so it would be interesting to see what an effect a day off or two does regarding my recall and imagery levels. I will try this nearer the middle, or end of the week.
> If I try a higher dose, probably a little further down the line, then I will have to make sure I wind down or wean myself off in the days after. Maybe drink lots of water before any experiment and afterwards as I wouldn't want to give my kidneys, (brain) or liver too much of a workout!



Definitely, definitely. Alright, thanks for the info!  ::content::  Stress definitely can negatively effect dreams and libido, so I guess we'll see how it goes for you next time.





> 2 sweets consumed tonight! Wish me luck!



Good luck!  ::D:

----------


## TheForgotten

> So, this might be an interesting detail to add to the libido/"pure sex" discussion.... It would seem that kappa-opioid agonists increase levels of prolactin. For those who aren't aware, prolactin in a chemical directly opposite to dopamine as far as the chemicals that make sex feel good go. Dopamine is connected to sexual arousal (like getting turned on, or the literal act of having sex, or masturbating, or whatever) and prolactin is connected to sexual gratification (the reason orgasms are so satisfying). Generally, as dopamine levels go up prolactin levels go down, and vice-versa. This makes sense with dynorphins lowering levels of dopamine. Prolactin isn't going to make you feel super horny when you're awake, but when you're in a dream... it's possible that the mind uses the feeling of prolactin to create the pure romantic dream scenarios, or the "clean" sex, or even just the happy dreams, because it puts you in a a satisfied orgasmic mindset, rather than a super horny one.
> 
> Interestingly, D2 receptor agonists actually lower prolactin levels, but it's possible that kappa-opioid receptors still release phenethylamine but also release prolactin in higher amounts, generating a net effect of increased levels. There are lots of systems that work like this in the brain, though of course the phenethylamine thing is still speculation (but it seems to fit). It could be that the reason dreams with sexual themes seem to be prevalent with menthol is because D2 activation is still causing an increase in libido (which is does even despite lowering dopamine levels, as dopamine generates some of its sexual effects through this receptor), but the dreams are being made much cleaner by the prolactin release. Conversely, it could just be that increased prolactin levels are enough for to form an association and create the sexually-themed dreams. It's certainly not surprising to me now that my first sexual dream from menthol was about satisfied naked cuddling....



Well I'm annoyed.  Took some menthol before bed, remaining consistent with the amount (30 mg).  And yet AGAIN, I got happy dreams.  NOT sex dreams, no siree.... god forbid Kaomea has some super raunchy and perverse sex dreams... no, let's give her some super amped content feels of happiness.  I didn't do ANYTHING.  I just remained in my space, analyzed all of my close relationships and then some, and remained in a state of blissful joy and appreciation for all that they provide to my life.  In fact, I even woke up with a god damned smile on my face.... FROM DOING NOTHING but loving my friends for who they are.

Where is my sex?!

----------


## TheForgotten

> So, this might be an interesting detail to add to the libido/"pure sex" discussion.... It would seem that kappa-opioid agonists increase levels of prolactin. For those who aren't aware, prolactin in a chemical directly opposite to dopamine as far as the chemicals that make sex feel good go. Dopamine is connected to sexual arousal (like getting turned on, or the literal act of having sex, or masturbating, or whatever) and prolactin is connected to sexual gratification (the reason orgasms are so satisfying). Generally, as dopamine levels go up prolactin levels go down, and vice-versa. This makes sense with dynorphins lowering levels of dopamine. Prolactin isn't going to make you feel super horny when you're awake, but when you're in a dream... it's possible that the mind uses the feeling of prolactin to create the pure romantic dream scenarios, or the "clean" sex, or even just the happy dreams, because it puts you in a a satisfied orgasmic mindset, rather than a super horny one.
> 
> Interestingly, D2 receptor agonists actually lower prolactin levels, but it's possible that kappa-opioid receptors still release phenethylamine but also release prolactin in higher amounts, generating a net effect of increased levels. There are lots of systems that work like this in the brain, though of course the phenethylamine thing is still speculation (but it seems to fit). It could be that the reason dreams with sexual themes seem to be prevalent with menthol is because D2 activation is still causing an increase in libido (which is does even despite lowering dopamine levels, as dopamine generates some of its sexual effects through this receptor), but the dreams are being made much cleaner by the prolactin release. Conversely, it could just be that increased prolactin levels are enough for to form an association and create the sexually-themed dreams. It's certainly not surprising to me now that my first sexual dream from menthol was about satisfied naked cuddling....



Well I'm annoyed.  Took some menthol last night, remaining consistent with the amount (30 mg).  And yet AGAIN, I got happy dreams.  NOT sex dreams, no siree.... god forbid Kaomea has some super raunchy and perverse sex dreams... no, let's give her some super amped content feels of happiness.  I didn't do ANYTHING.  I just remained in my space, analyzed all of my close relationships and then some, and remained in a state of blissful joy and appreciation for all that they provide to my life.  In fact, I even woke up with a god damned smile on my face.... FROM DOING NOTHING but loving my friends for who they are.

Where is my sex?!

No changes in lucidity, stability, vividness from standard dreaming nights.

----------


## Alyzarin

> *Well I'm annoyed.* Took some menthol last night, remaining consistent with the amount (30 mg). And yet AGAIN, I *got happy dreams*. NOT sex dreams, no siree.... god forbid Kaomea has some super raunchy and perverse sex dreams... no, let's give her *some super amped content feels of happiness*. I didn't do ANYTHING. I just remained in my space, *analyzed all of my close relationships* and then some, and *remained in a state of blissful joy and appreciation for all that they provide to my life*. In fact, I *even woke up with a god damned smile on my face*.... *FROM DOING NOTHING but loving my friends for who they are*.
> 
> Where is my sex?!
> 
> No changes in lucidity, stability, vividness from standard dreaming nights.



Oh my god, you poor dear.  :Puppy dog eyes:  It's alright, it's alright... it's over now. You're safe and sound where you belong.  ::hug:: 

You know, I don't believe Wolfwood has really noticed many changes in lucidity, stability, or vividness despite getting the pure sexual effects either. Odd how that works, considering that some people are just getting _just_ those kinds of increases without so much sex/happy feelings....

Have you unwittingly revealed your true intentions, Kaomea? Do you really NOT want sex, but just to be served happiness?  :Cheeky:

----------


## TheForgotten

> Oh my god, you poor dear.  It's alright, it's alright... it's over now. You're safe and sound where you belong. 
> 
> Have you unwittingly revealed your true intentions, Kaomea? Do you really NOT want sex, but just to be served happiness?



Thank you for your support during these difficult times, Aly.   ::hug::  

You know what though, I'm beginning to think sex might not be at the center of my universe.  Go figure.  

I like this crazy thread.

----------


## littlezoe

Well, this is weird. I got a lucid again today... and it was possibly thanks to the Negro in two ways, lol. It also helped make me realize that i'm dreaming o.o

Dream Link: My Power Left Me, Sex Attempts Always End Bad - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

I'm not sure if the Negro made the dream somewhat weird again... and i also had a regular dream in which i was "playing" with a girl... i rarely have dreams like that, but i had them already, so i can't tell if the menthol is the cause or not.
But it seems really encouraging so far as i got two lucids in a row while taking 3 Negros both days ^^

----------


## Alyzarin

> Thank you for your support during these difficult times, Aly.   
> 
> You know what though, I'm beginning to think sex might not be at the center of my universe.  Go figure.  
> 
> I like this crazy thread.



Any time, you know I'm always here for you. 

It would seem that menthol has something to give us all, whether we knew that it was exactly what we wanted or not.  ::rolleyes:: 

Either that or it just likes jerking us around, I'm pretty sure it's one of those two.

Hehe, I like this thread too. I'm very satisfied with our progress thus far.  :tongue2: 





> Well, this is weird. I got a lucid again today... and it was possibly thanks to the Negro in two ways, lol. It also helped make me realize that i'm dreaming o.o
> 
> Dream Link: My Power Left Me, Sex Attempts Always End Bad - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
> 
> I'm not sure if the Negro made the dream somewhat weird again... and i also had a regular dream in which i was "playing" with a girl... i rarely have dreams like that, but i had them already, so i can't tell if the menthol is the cause or not.
> But it seems really encouraging so far as i got two lucids in a row while taking 3 Negros both days ^^



Awesome! That's great that you've had that consistency, I hope it keeps up.  ::D:

----------


## littlezoe

> Awesome! That's great that you've had that consistency, I hope it keeps up.



I hope so too ^^

Really.. if it works like 4 days in a row, i'd count that as a success  :smiley:  I think i only had one week when i was able to get a lucid on 4 days  :smiley: 

If it works out well, that means i'll have to keep a pack of Negro at home at all times xD

----------


## Alyzarin

> I hope so too ^^
> 
> Really.. if it works like 4 days in a row, i'd count that as a success  I think i only had one week when i was able to get a lucid on 4 days 
> 
> If it works out well, that means i'll have to keep a pack of Negro at home at all times xD



Ooh, that's a tall order for a budding dream enhancer, but I admire your spunk.  :tongue2: 

You've inspired me, anyway. I'm actually only up right now because I passed out in front of the computer and happened to wake up at 3 AM, so I'm going to bed again now, and I'm eating three York peppermint patties in the process.  ::chuckle:: 



Hopefully I'll have something interesting to report. X) See you in a while!  :OK Bye now:

----------


## isthisit

Ok, I took 2 of the sweets right before bed (like, I was still finishing the second as I lay down) and I must say, I think it did have an effect on me even though I wasn't lucid. I won't post the full dreams, as they're a bit long - you can see them in my DJ though. However;

The last 2 nights (nights taking the sweets - maybe coincidence?) I have had pretty normal dreams, except for both nights featured dreams with a common theme; Some sort of baby animal, and a really vivid (and I mean vivid - shockingly real) sensation when touching the animals. I'm sure freud would have something to say about this. One snippet:

 "It is like a water balloon, and very slippery. Eventually I manage to rip one end and the liquid spurts out - it's water like consistency but it is really warm, and soaks everything, including me. There's a mirror just laying on the bed, with a heavy gold guilt frame, and this gets soaked too. My bed sheets are soaked, (they are purple and black silk) but despite all this, I am incredibly happy. I can't stop smiling and watching the water spurt everywhere. The vet kind of laughs, and says 'you'll have trouble sleeping in there tonight.' but I just don't care, I'm delighted. "

I also had trouble falling to sleep at the beginning of the night, and a little bit of nightmarish quality to the first few hours of sleep. However I did also take my usual 100mg of B6, so maybe this kept me more awake? Never happened before though.


3 sweets tonight!!

----------


## Alyzarin

> The last 2 nights (nights taking the sweets - maybe coincidence?) I have had pretty normal dreams, except for both nights featured dreams with a common theme; Some sort of baby animal, and a really vivid (and I mean vivid - shockingly real) sensation when touching the animals. I'm sure freud would have something to say about this. One snippet:
> 
>  "It is like a water balloon, and very slippery. Eventually I manage to rip one end and the liquid spurts out - it's water like consistency but it is really warm, and soaks everything, including me. There's a mirror just laying on the bed, with a heavy gold guilt frame, and this gets soaked too. My bed sheets are soaked, (they are purple and black silk) but despite all this, I am incredibly happy. I can't stop smiling and watching the water spurt everywhere. The vet kind of laughs, and says 'you'll have trouble sleeping in there tonight.' but I just don't care, I'm delighted. "
> 
> I also had trouble falling to sleep at the beginning of the night, and a little bit of nightmarish quality to the first few hours of sleep. However I did also take my usual 100mg of B6, so maybe this kept me more awake? Never happened before though.



I've actually noticed some pretty vivid tactile sensations myself on the nights that I've taken menthol, even in this one I just woke up from that I still need to log. I wonder if they're connected? It'll certainly be interesting to see if the same theme carries over into your next attempt.  :smiley:  It seems like menthol can have kind of a running-theme effect, at least from what I've observed so far....

That nightmare thing was weird, but the original post that inspired this was about very large doses of menthol cough drops causing vivid nightmares. Not exactly the same as what you experienced, but possibly related?

----------


## isthisit

> I've actually noticed some pretty vivid tactile sensations myself on the nights that I've taken menthol, even in this one I just woke up from that I still need to log. I wonder if they're connected? It'll certainly be interesting to see if the same theme carries over into your next attempt.  It seems like menthol can have kind of a running-theme effect, at least from what I've observed so far....
> 
> That nightmare thing was weird, but the original post that inspired this was about very large doses of menthol cough drops causing vivid nightmares. Not exactly the same as what you experienced, but possibly related?




It would be interesting to see if they are connected, normally I only get such vivid sensations if I am lucid. It's definitely a good thing in my opinion. I did read that, I RARELY if ever, have nightmares, so this was weird. It was hard to explain, but I wonder if the B6 mixed with the menthol had this effect? Because B6 does make me more awake. I'm going to try without the B6 tonight.

----------


## Alyzarin

> It would be interesting to see if they are connected, normally I only get such vivid sensations if I am lucid. It's definitely a good thing in my opinion. I did read that, I RARELY if ever, have nightmares, so this was weird. It was hard to explain, but I wonder if the B6 mixed with the menthol had this effect? Because B6 does make me more awake. I'm going to try without the B6 tonight.



Well good luck!  ::content::  It is possible that it would have that effect I suppose, I used to take B6 at night when I really needed to stay awake but I didn't want to drink a lot of caffeine or something. Menthol on its own can actually be relaxing, so without the B6 it may actually help you get to sleep more easily.  :smiley:

----------


## Highlander

> Ok, I took 2 of the sweets right before bed (like, I was still finishing the second as I lay down) and I must say, I think it did have an effect on me even though I wasn't lucid. I won't post the full dreams, as they're a bit long - you can see them in my DJ though. However;
> 
> The last 2 nights (nights taking the sweets - maybe coincidence?) I have had pretty normal dreams, except for both nights featured dreams with a common theme; Some sort of baby animal, and a really vivid (and I mean vivid - shockingly real) sensation when touching the animals. I'm sure freud would have something to say about this. One snippet:
> 
>  "It is like a water balloon, and very slippery. Eventually I manage to rip one end and the liquid spurts out - it's water like consistency but it is really warm, and soaks everything, including me. There's a mirror just laying on the bed, with a heavy gold guilt frame, and this gets soaked too. My bed sheets are soaked, (they are purple and black silk) but despite all this, I am incredibly happy. I can't stop smiling and watching the water spurt everywhere. The vet kind of laughs, and says 'you'll have trouble sleeping in there tonight.' but I just don't care, I'm delighted. "
> 
> I also had trouble falling to sleep at the beginning of the night, and a little bit of nightmarish quality to the first few hours of sleep. However I did also take my usual 100mg of B6, so maybe this kept me more awake? Never happened before though.
> 
> 
> 3 sweets tonight!!



Sounds a cool dream if you excuse the pun. I find the tactile dreams quite interesting because whe seemed to be conditioned that it is all about the visuals, then the sounds, etc, especially when recording them. I tend to mainly be a visual person, however I like to try to get the conversations recorded accurately that are picked up in my dreams.
When I was younger I used to love the highly vivid dreams where I could actually 'feel' the heat of the sun on my skin and face. It is one of the most amazing tactile sensations you can feel. I mean I used to be looking at the sky where it was totally blue where I could feel the energy of the sun which made me so happy as I walked around. Even in real life if there ever was a day with a blue sky with a bright overhead sun then to me it seemed to heighten my senses where I felt like breathing it in, even to the point that I just started really tingling, nearly pulsating. A really nice feeling, so often taken for granted in the modern busy world.

Yes the B6 is one heck of a vitamin. 10 mg does for me!

(P.S: I did see the Jakemans in Boots today. Like you say I couldn't see any info regarding the Menthol values either. Now why was I in a Chemist I wonder?)  ::bigteeth:: 

I did manage a WBTB, but I need to transcribe my scribble onto the computer as of yet, as I had to sort things out this morning, so hang in there folks!


July 10th 2012 
(Provisional)

Retired for bed at 12.12 am (Bad stomach - stress)
Woke up (feeling really Groggy) via Alarm at 5.15 am
Back to bed at 5.42 am
WBTB period 27 min

Lozenges x3
Menthol = 29.1 mg

Got some reverie and visuals. I did have a (non-lucid) dream incubation success in regard to my GF's black knickers in my bedroom. (I.e: As in my bed.) Cool!

----------


## isthisit

> Now why was I in a Chemist I wonder?)



lol

You mention the heat of the sun in your dreams, I recently had this! I can totally relate, its a great feeling. 

Looking forward to reading your entry, Im looking forward to trying this experiment again tonight.

Also, completely random thought but do menthol cigarettes contain any / a lot of menthol? I don't smoke but wondered if anyone else did.

----------


## Alyzarin

> I did manage a WBTB, but I need to transcribe my scribble onto the computer as of yet, as I had to sort things out this morning, so hang in there folks!
> 
> 
> July 10th 2012 
> (Provisional)
> 
> Retired for bed at 12.12 am (Bad stomach - stress)
> Woke up (feeling really Groggy) via Alarm at 5.15 am
> Back to bed at 5.42 am
> ...



I'll be waiting.  :tongue2:  That last bit sounds like it'll be an interesting read.  ::chuckle:: 





> Also, completely random thought but do menthol cigarettes contain any / a lot of menthol? I don't smoke but wondered if anyone else did.



They do actually contain menthol, yes lol. However, I'm not going to recommend them as a viable option. Not just because they're cigarettes, but even to anyone who smokes. It is likely that no dream effects from the menthol will be felt, for the same reason that smoking cigarettes in general doesn't really effect your dreams, but nicotine patches can make them insanely intense. The half-life is simply too short, and smoking it will only significantly shorten it, while at the same time dramatically lowering the dose required to see annoying side effects (not to mention you have to take in a good amount of nicotine at the same time). I would just leave them out of consideration, personally. However, it is possible (if not probable) that they would still effect your tolerance to menthol for use as a dream enhancer, so for anyone interested in them, I would keep that in mind.

----------


## Highlander

Yep, I took 29.1 mg Menthol via 3 Honey and Lem lozenges at WBTB this morning.

Ex workmates, a CD, and a pair of black knickers - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

I am pleased with the incubation experiment I carried out. It seemed to work too well, as in literally, as in _exactly_ the same location.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Yep, I took 29.1 mg Menthol via 3 Honey and Lem lozenges at WBTB this morning.
> 
> Ex workmates, a CD, and a pair of black knickers - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
> 
> I am pleased with the incubation experiment I carried out. It seemed to work too well, as in literally, as in _exactly_ the same location.



Hmmm, maybe I should give some incubation a shot as well.  :Thinking:  It does give me pretty good visualization skills, after all.

----------


## Highlander

> Hmmm, maybe I should give some incubation a shot as well.  It does give me pretty good visualization skills, after all.



I do think incubation works well at WBTB due to the power of suggestion, especially with something with emotional attachment. (A bit like MILD, I suppose?) I'm pretty convinced that I could do that sort of thing with say photo's, or jewellery under your pillow, etc. for example my parents, (that's a long story!) or indeed anything. Good luck!

You mention about half-life and residual amounts, (in regard to Menthol) which could be interesting for someone (me?) who could perhaps 'tweak' their (WBTB) bed technique. Do you roughly know how long it takes to get in the bloodstream and how long the substance takes to become 'active' via the stomach (or metabolize, if that is the correct term as I am getting out of depth!) I presume it obviously crosses the blood/brain barrier quite easily, etc.

P.S: How did you get on with the Pepper Paddy's Patties?

----------


## Alyzarin

> I do think incubation works well at WBTB due to the power of suggestion, especially with something with emotional attachment. (A bit like MILD, I suppose?) I'm pretty convinced that I could do that sort of thing with say photo's, or jewellery under your pillow, etc. for example my parents, (that's a long story!) or indeed anything. Good luck!



Interesting. I may have to try this pillow method, then!  :smiley:  And thanks!





> You mention about half-life and residual amounts, (in regard to Menthol) which could be interesting for someone (me?) who could perhaps 'tweak' their (WBTB) bed technique. Do you roughly know how long it takes to get in the bloodstream and how long the substance takes to become 'active' via the stomach (or metabolize, if that is the correct term as I am getting out of depth!) I presume it obviously crosses the blood/brain barrier quite easily, etc.



I'm not sure exactly how long it takes to kick in, but I can cite the fact that Kaomea noticed a relaxant effect roughly an hour after dosing. Perhaps that's a good sign to go off of? Half an hour to an hour is generally a safe bet for this kind of thing, anyway. (Not always, but generally.) From a little research I've just done as well, it seems like it should cross the BBB easily enough. When exactly do you take your cough drops before going to sleep, again? If you aren't already, I might suggest taking them right when you first get up for your WBTB, rather than as you're going to sleep, and see if it effects anything differently. Or even the other way around, if you already do it that way.





> P.S: How did you get on with the Pepper Paddy's Patties?



I'll be posting that in a few minutes.  :tongue2:

----------


## Alyzarin

*Experience Template*

Alright, so by request I've decided to set up a template for us to post our experiences with, which I made by tweaking the one Kaomea has been using. This is not a requirement, but it would be very much appreciated if you used it from now on.  :smiley:  It would make it much easier to scroll back through previous pages and compare data, as well as provide an easy layout for getting all the new information we need out. This is the template itself, for quick access:




```

[B]Dose:[/B][B]Side Effects:[/B][B]Sleep Duration:[/B][B]WBTB:[/B][B]Lucid:[/B][B]Vividness:[/B][B]Stability:[/B][B]Dream Comments:[/B] 


```


And here's what should be in each category:

*Dose:* xx mg Cough Drops, xx cups Peppermint Tea, xx Candies, etc.
*Side Effects:* Stomach pains, sedation or insomnia, strange mental effects, etc.
*Sleep Duration:* How long you were asleep for, if you tracked it.
*WBTB:* Yes/No.
*Lucid:* Yes/No.
*Vividness:* Low, typical, high, etc.
*Stability:* Low, typical, high, etc.
*Dream Comments:* If you noticed any recurring themes, sexual effects, nightmarish elements, tolerance build-up, or just anything else worth saying, put it here. Feel free to link to your DJ or post your dreams here as well.

----------

As an example, here's my log from last night:

*Dose:* 3 York Peppermint Patties.
*Side Effects:* Possibly insomnia, but that may have been natural.
*Sleep Duration:* Roughly 3.5-4 hours after dosing.
*WBTB:* Yes, technically (it wasn't intentional).
*Lucid:* No.
*Vividness:* Above average.
*Stability:* Typical.
*Dream Comments:* The biggest thing I'd have to say about this night was that there were still sexual effects, like every other time I've used menthol so far. This seems to be a pretty consistent effect for me. Unfortunately I didn't get lucid this time, but eh. Still interesting.  ::content::  This was what I got for the night:

DJ Entry - Temporary Apartment, Make Yourself At Home





> Supplement Dose: 3 York Peppermint Patties
> 
> *#1 - Temporary Apartment* [Non-Lucid]
> 
> This dream is sort of hard to remember because I was distracted for most of it, but I was at some new apartment with my parents that I think we were moving into, but only temporarily. We might have just been staying there for a bit, but it was only us (i.e., we weren't staying with someone). I remember that my mom was looking for my cat to feed him, and he was eventually found to be hiding under the coffee table in the living room, and I was kind of narrating this all to myself and making a log of it in my phone.  I think I was also posting on DV somehow, but then I woke up, really horny for *cough* some reason. 
> 
> *#2 - Make Yourself At Home* [Non-Lucid]
> 
> I was staying in some pretty big house, housesitting for the owners. My libido was running pretty strong in this dream. There were two dogs there that I was supposed to be looking after but I needed to get them out of the way, so I put them in the laundry room or something and closed the door, then spontaneously decided to masturbate on the kitchen floor. o.o I decided to have the lights off for it, but I think turning them off caused the dream to skip forward to the next scene. I vaguely remember the blackness and feeling myself on the floor for a second, but then my memory picks up again later where I had apparently invited J to come over and hang out with me there. While I was talking to him about something I had the random urge to look down at what I was wearing. If I remember correctly, I had on what appeared to be a small, fancy black dress skirt paired with a totally ordinary orange t-shirt. For some reason, this only increased my horniness. (I think it was the skirt that did it. >w<) Somehow, around this time the plot changed to be so that there was a family party going on at this house, which also contained a buffet restaurant in it now.  I sampled a ton of different food which I felt and tasted completely, it was all pretty delicious, except for some guacamole at the end which is unfortunately the only one I vividly remember. X) I recall my cousin AB asking me about it, and I told her it wasn't very fresh anymore. Before that too, at some point, I was talking to my grandma about different foods I was looking for, and she told me to try to find some sausage but I told her I'd rather get some bacon. (Oh man, that would be great right about now....) Shortly after the guacamole thing, though, I woke up.

----------


## Highlander

> Interesting. I may have to try this pillow method, then!  And thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure exactly how long it takes to kick in, but I can cite the fact that Kaomea noticed a relaxant effect roughly an hour after dosing. Perhaps that's a good sign to go off of? Half an hour to an hour is generally a safe bet for this kind of thing, anyway. (Not always, but generally.) From a little research I've just done as well, it seems like it should cross the BBB easily enough. When exactly do you take your cough drops before going to sleep, again? If you aren't already, I might suggest taking them right when you first get up for your WBTB, rather than as you're going to sleep, and see if it effects anything differently. Or even the other way around, if you already do it that way.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be posting that in a second.



No Prob's, hope it helps. Thanks for the info. by the way. 
I take them just after I wake (5.15 am) basically as the wbtb period starts. So I take about 3 across the whole (20 - 25 min) wbtb period, then retire or bed about 5.43 ish. 

Yep, hail to the god of patties! (We wait for the solar eclipse to start.)  ::bowdown::

----------


## isthisit

> *Experience Template*
> 
> Alright, so by request I've decided to set up a template for us to post our experiences with, which I made by tweaking the one Kaomea has been using. This is not a requirement, but it would be very much appreciated if you used it from now on.  It would make it much easier to scroll back through previous pages and compare data, as well as provide an easy layout for getting all the new information we need out. This is the template itself, for quick access:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> 
> ...




Excellent, I'll start using the template, thanks! One question though, how do I post links to my dream journal entry? like you have done?

----------


## Alyzarin

> No Prob's, hope it helps. Thanks for the info. by the way. 
> I take them just after I wake (5.15 am) basically as the wbtb period starts. So I take about 3 across the whole (20 - 25 min) wbtb period, then retire or bed about 5.43 ish. 
> 
> Yep, hail to the god of patties! (We wait for the solar eclipse to start.)



Ah gotcha, so that is a good coverage. How long do you normally stay asleep for with your WBTBs? Maybe you'd get a bit of a stronger effect if you dosed all at once.





> Excellent, I'll start using the template, thanks! One question though, how do I post links to my dream journal entry? like you have done?



Awesome, thanks!  ::content::  Just click the 'Insert Link' button (the globe with a little chain link) when you're making a post.  :smiley:  I just grab the URL from my DJ whenever I post it, then type out "DJ Entry - " and copy and paste the name.

----------


## littlezoe

I like that template  :smiley:  Althrough other than the dream contents i didn't notice anything extraordinary... but i'll be sure to use it tomorrow  :smiley:

----------


## Alyzarin

> I like that template  Althrough other than the dream contents i didn't notice anything extraordinary... but i'll be sure to use it tomorrow



Thanks!  ::content::  It'll be very helpful.  :smiley:

----------


## Highlander

> Ah gotcha, so that is a good coverage. How long do you normally stay asleep for with your WBTBs? Maybe you'd get a bit of a stronger effect if you dosed all at once.



The sweets take a while to digest/masticate (yes as in chewing!  :Shades wink: ) so taking them quickly is difficult unless I crush them or something beforehand.

Typical sleep period after WBTB = 2.5 to 3.25 hrs (Quality varies. Broken sleep, etc.)

P.S: I will use the template from now on & try to compile my previous results as well. (I will have to add dates with those however.)
Cool dreams by the way!

----------


## Carrot

Wait. So you guys are chewing sweets when you wake up for a WBTB? Or you consume them before you sleep? Or both?

 ::shock::  at the increase of sexual dreams.

----------


## Thena

I've been watching this thread with some interesting because of a weird experience I had last week. I have a regular problem with sore throats. When I had one last Wednesday, I was chowing down on sore throat lozenges throughout the day. I can't remember how many I had, but I had some vivid, _very interesting_ dreams the following night, including a part where a girl whipped off her top, jumped into my lap, and started giving me a lap dance.

I'll see what else I can contribute. I tried taking a single lozenge during my WBTB this morning, but I dozed off before it fully dissolved.

----------


## Alyzarin

> The sweets take a while to digest/masticate (yes as in chewing! ) so taking them quickly is difficult unless I crush them or something beforehand.
> 
> Typical sleep period after WBTB = 2.5 to 3.25 hrs (Quality varies. Broken sleep, etc.)
> 
> P.S: I will use the template from now on & try to compile my previous results as well. (I will have to add dates with those however.)
> Cool dreams by the way!



Understandable. Which ones are you using again? The honey-lemon Halls? Because believe it or not, they're actually pretty chewable right off the bat.  ::chuckle::  I got tired of waiting around when I was using them so I gave it a shot, they get crushed up pretty easily. Of course, then you have a rush of nasty coldness.  :tongue2: 

With that time frame, it's hard to say. The spaced out doses might actually be doing you good, but we won't know for sure until you've changed up your routine a bit.  ::rolleyes:: 

Awesome, it's much obliged!  ::content::  And thanks, my dreams were okay. =P I wish I could remember the food better, though. >w<





> Wait. So you guys are chewing sweets when you wake up for a WBTB? Or you consume them before you sleep? Or both?
> 
>  at the increase of sexual dreams.



Yes to all of that.  :Cheeky:  Mint candies, menthol cough drops, peppermint tea... whatever works. You should join in too if you can get some.  ::rolleyes::  *nudge nudge*





> I've been watching this thread with some interesting because of a weird experience I had last week. I have a regular problem with sore throats. When I had one last Wednesday, I was chowing down on sore throat lozenges throughout the day. I can't remember how many I had, but I had some vivid, _very interesting_ dreams the following night, including a part where a girl whipped off her top, jumped into my lap, and started giving me a lap dance.
> 
> I'll see what else I can contribute. I tried taking a single lozenge during my WBTB this morning, but I dozed off before it fully dissolved.



Sweet, that's a great first contribution to the thread!  ::D:  Man, frickin' menthol.... Well, welcome to the experiment!  ::content::  I look forward to reading more of your experiences.  :smiley:

----------


## Highlander

> Understandable. Which ones are you using again? The honey-lemon Halls? Because believe it or not, they're actually pretty chewable right off the bat.  I got tired of waiting around when I was using them so I gave it a shot, they get crushed up pretty easily. Of course, then you have a rush of nasty coldness. 
> 
> With that time frame, it's hard to say. The spaced out doses might actually be doing you good, but we won't know for sure until you've changed up your routine a bit. 
> 
> Awesome, it's much obliged!  And thanks, my dreams were okay. =P I wish I could remember the food better, though. >w<



Yep, I'm on Honey and Lemon Lockets. I think they are similar except the Halls are like a flat square shaped sweet, whereas these are shaped like an oval. They have a nice taste though.
I have now got some 'extra strong' Lockets. Basically the same with no honey, etc. They have 15.8mg Menthol per sweet!  ::imslow::

----------


## Carrot

> Yes to all of that.  Mint candies, menthol cough drops, peppermint tea... whatever works. You should join in too if you can get some.  *nudge nudge*



I think I have some sore throat sweets at home... I'll think about it. Somehow I find it unnatural to dream using a dream enhancer but I think it wouldn't hurt for a couple of days. I used to be able to induce people into my dreams by overthinking about them.

----------


## Highlander

> I think I have some sore throat sweets at home... I'll think about it. Somehow I find it unnatural to dream using a dream enhancer but I think it wouldn't hurt for a couple of days. I used to be able to induce people into my dreams by overthinking about them.



You are right about inducing people by (over) thinking about them. I get that too. The only problem I find (which hurts) with it is when you wake up and you cannot see or talk to them no more in real life. It can be a good or bad thing depending on the situation and the person/people involved.

I also prefer 'natural' lucid dreams. I used to get them when I was a teenager, but quite rarely however. Frequency about two a year. I found out I was actually doing the odd WBTB, (via a simple toilet break) before I even knew such things. I now try things like Apple Juice, etc. but I do draw the line with certain things. My LD frequency is probably about averaging 1 to 4 a week. Now I'm getting about 1 every 2 days or so, but that is with hard effort, etc.
I'd say if your not comfortable with it then keep with what works for you rather than be unsure. Check what it says on the packet, check ALL the ingredients to make sure you are not sensitive or allergic to anything. However if you have taken them before ok then that should rule that out.

I like you have my reservations. However when I looked on the other side of the coin where I thought about what 'foods' and drinks I was having in the day that have E numbers and additives like saccharins, tartrazine, artificial colourings in our daily diet, plus the sugar and salt then I didn't think too much of it. IMO. 
Even our water has got artificial additives in it.  :Eek:

----------


## Alyzarin

> Yep, I'm on Honey and Lemon Lockets. I think they are similar except the Halls are like a flat square shaped sweet, whereas these are shaped like an oval. They have a nice taste though.
> I have now got some 'extra strong' Lockets. Basically the same with no honey, etc. They have 15.8mg Menthol per sweet!



Ah, gotcha. Hehe, you're gonna be getting some crazy dreams now.  :tongue2:  What's that, an extra... 1.something milligrams?  ::chuckle:: 





> I think I have some sore throat sweets at home... I'll think about it. Somehow I find it unnatural to dream using a dream enhancer but I think it wouldn't hurt for a couple of days. I used to be able to induce people into my dreams by overthinking about them.



Lucky! My incubation skills aren't that great. My dreams are mostly random.  :tongue2:  Yeah, I understand not wanting to use enhancers... I do like having pure dreams as well. You don't have to do it if you don't want to, but I'll look forward to your experiences if you do.  :smiley:

----------


## littlezoe

I thought about it the same way as Carrot before, that i don't want to use any enhancers to gain lucidity... but you know... if i can get a lucid almost everyday with basically just CANDY that i actually find tasty, then i'll sure take some ;D

----------


## Alyzarin

> I thought about it the same way as Carrot before, that i don't want to use any enhancers to gain lucidity... but you know... if i can get a lucid almost everyday with basically just CANDY that i actually find tasty, then i'll sure take some ;D



You're really excited about these last two successes, huh?  ::chuckle::

----------


## littlezoe

> You're really excited about these last two successes, huh?



Indeed!  ::D:  I'm so hyped that i'll surely have another lucid tomorrow ^^

----------


## Carrot

Another reason I had for not doing this is a little strange. I tend not to eat anything after I brush my teeth. If I were to eat a sweet, brush my teeth, take up some time here and there I wonder how much of the effect of the sweet is left. o.O

----------


## Alyzarin

> Another reason I had for not doing this is a little strange. I tend not to eat anything after I brush my teeth. If I were to eat a sweet, brush my teeth, take up some time here and there I wonder how much of the effect of the sweet is left. o.O



You could always use mint-flavored toothpaste to give it that extra boost, just in case.  ::rolleyes:: 

As long as you still did it pretty soon before bed, it probably wouldn't be that big of a deal. Alternatively, you could do it with a WBTB, which I imagine (though I may be wrong) you don't brush your teeth for.  :tongue2:

----------


## Carrot

Dang I don't have mint toothpaste, I just checked it. I'll check the fridge tomorrow to see if I have any menthol in any sweets.  :smiley:

----------


## Wolfwood

> Dang I don't have mint toothpaste, I just checked it. I'll check the fridge tomorrow to see if I have any menthol in any sweets.



lol.... so your fridge is stocked with sweets.  ::shock::

----------


## Highlander

This should bring me bang up to date so far.


*Tues July 10th 2012*

*Dose:* 29.1mg Cough drops
*Side Effects:* Insomnia 
*Sleep Duration:* 3.5 hrs after
*WBTB:* Yes 
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Dream incubated experiment worked well to a degree. Short visual scenes and reverie present. One flashback post waking.

Ex workmates, a CD, and a pair of black knickers - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views



*Mon July 9th 2012*

*Dose:* 29.1mg Cough drops
*Side Effects:* Insomnia
*Sleep Duration:* Less than 3 hrs after
*WBTB:* Yes 
*Lucid:* YES
*Vividness:* Good
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* A vivid lucid dream with storyline and interaction with dialogue. Memorable. Good recall of other dreams also.

The Weather, an Alsatian and the Phone Box - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views



*Sun July 8th 2012*

*Dose:* 29.1mg Cough drops
*Side Effects:* Insomnia and initial itchy distractions
*Sleep Duration:* Less than 3 hrs after
*WBTB:* Yes 
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Good
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* High recall. A vivid long dream account plus several short dreams. Anxiety dreams. Reverie and visuals. A sexual theme.

Anxiety dreams, the House and the Factory, etc. - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views



*Sat July 7th 2012*

*Dose:* 38.8mg Cough drops
*Side Effects:* Insomnia and stomach upset. Mentally tired
*Sleep Duration:* About 2.5 hrs after
*WBTB:* Yes 
*Lucid:* Yes
*Vividness:* High
*Stability:* High
*Dream Comments:* Vivid lucid dream with story and dialogue. Several dreams recorded with above average recall. Memorable. Lots of visual, reverie and visual scenes. Upset after recounting lucid.

Dad, the Football, and some short dreams - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views



*Fri July 6th 2012*

*Dose:* 19.4 mg Cough drops
*Side Effects:* Insomnia and stomach upset. Tiredness
*Sleep Duration:* 2.5 hrs after
*WBTB:* Yes 
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* SP type dream element. Average to good recall with reverie and visuals.

Finding a tenner. The Kitchen. Cleaning in the Hi-Fi cabinet - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views



*Thur July 5th 2012*

*Dose:* 19.4 mg Cough drops
*Side Effects:* Insomnia and stomach upset
*Sleep Duration:* 2.5 hrs after
*WBTB:* Yes 
*Lucid:* Yes
*Vividness:* High
*Stability:* High
*Dream Comments:* Sexual. Vibrations. Plus an excellent crisp lucid with a sexy theme. Possibly influenced from a film the previous night. Highly memorable. Major dream control. Very high recall. Felt sad also in one dream.
Note to self: _Will visit this place again and get a drink this time!_

ABBA. Vibrations. The 'Naked' Bar - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Alyzarin

> This should bring me bang up to date so far.



Awesome, thanks for that! It definitely makes things easier to find.  ::content::

----------


## Highlander

Thanks & no Probs. Hope it helps. 
De Nada as they say in Spanglish.

From this morning I will post the template daily.

Now where is that bed. (¿Donde está mí cama, por favor?) 

 :Off to Bed:

----------


## Mindraker

_You know, if we were *really* doing this hardcore in the name of science, Alyzarin would give half of the participants menthol tablets, and half of the participants menthol "flavored" tablets (i.e., sugar pills/placebos), but not actually tell the participants what kind they have.

I wonder how easy it's for me to take a sugar pill with the power of suggestion, "This pill will affect your dreams!" and have it actually affect my dreams.

The power of suggestion is strong..._

----------


## Alyzarin

> You know, if we were *really* doing this hardcore in the name of science, Alyzarin would give half of the participants menthol tablets, and half of the participants menthol "flavored" tablets (i.e., sugar pills/placebos), but not actually tell the participants what kind they have.
> 
> I wonder how easy it's for me to take a sugar pill with the power of suggestion, "This pill will affect your dreams!" and have it *actually* affect my dreams.
> 
> The power of suggestion is strong...



You know, this is only the beginning of the experiment.  :tongue2:  I wasn't going to take anything as fact until a good number of people who've used menthol have also gone for a period of time without using it, then used it again, then stopped, etc.... Basically enough that the changes we're getting are definitely induced by menthol. However, I have no doubts that it does effect dreams in one way or another.

If you want to distribute placebos, though, be my guest. It'll sure move this along faster.  ::chuckle::

----------


## Wolfwood

> You know, if we were *really* doing this hardcore in the name of science, Alyzarin would give half of the participants menthol tablets, and half of the participants menthol "flavored" tablets (i.e., sugar pills/placebos), but not actually tell the participants what kind they have.
> 
> I wonder how easy it's for me to take a sugar pill with the power of suggestion, "This pill will affect your dreams!" and have it *actually* affect my dreams.
> 
> The power of suggestion is strong...



I always go in skeptical... and well, I've not had any lucid success. Yet, unexpectedly...4 nights worth of multiple dreams were completely sexual.

Anyway... a supplement that claims to increase lucidity is perfect if it does just that (whether placebo or real), right? ^_^

----------


## Alyzarin

> I always go in skeptical... and well, I've not had any lucid success. Yet, unexpectedly...4 nights worth of multiple dreams were completely sexual.
> 
> Anyway... a supplement that claims to increase lucidity is perfect if it does just that (whether placebo or real), right? ^_^



To be honest, if I had to pick one or the other, I would totally go with a dream sex pill over a lucid dream pill.  ::lol::  There are already a lot of the latter out there. X)

----------


## Wolfwood

> To be honest, if I had to pick one or the other, I would totally go with a dream sex pill over a lucid dream pill.  There are already a lot of the latter out there. X)



Butttt lucid dreams = control = better sex dreams.  :Nod yes: 

I'd only want this to increase lucidity because of its availability and price. And I forgot to buy the tea. >_>

----------


## Linkzelda

I got 3 packs of Halls.

Dark Cherry
Cherry
And Lemon


I'm going to take the Cherry and see if my "cherry" is going to get crushed.  ::chuckle:: 

Going to take 3 of them tonight.

----------


## Wolfwood

Are you putting this into a spreadsheet or anything, Aly? I think if we kept to some format, say.. like RobStar's, it'd be pretty easy to collate.

I'm interested in how many have sexual dreams actually.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Butttt lucid dreams = control = better sex dreams. 
> 
> I'd only want this to increase lucidity because of its availability and price. And I forgot to buy the tea. >_>



But non-lucid sex dreams make you think they're actually happening.  ::rolleyes::  Hehe, I know, that's a terrible reason, but what you can expect from someone who used to use deliriants?  :tongue2:  You know, I didn't actually originally claim that menthol would increase lucidity, though of course I've gotten lucid almost every time I used it. I said it was a _dream enhancer_, nothing more. However, enhanced dreams can certainly lead to more lucidity, and that seems to be the case here.  ::content:: 

And don't worry, I forgot to get mine for a few days, too.  ::chuckle:: 





> I got 3 packs of Halls.
> 
> Dark Cherry
> Cherry
> And Lemon
> 
> 
> I'm going to take the Cherry and see if my "cherry" is going to get crushed. 
> 
> Going to take 3 of them tonight.



Sweeeet, I hope you get some good results.  :armflap: 





> Are you putting this into a spreadsheet or anything, Aly? I think if we kept to some format, say.. like RobStar's, it'd be pretty easy to collate.
> 
> I'm interested in how many have sexual dreams actually.



Well, I did originally post the template he used.  :tongue2:  But no, I haven't done anything like that. That could be corrected easily, though.

----------


## Alyzarin

A random thought: do a reality check every time you have sex, then take lots of menthol? X)

----------


## Mindraker

_





 Originally Posted by Alyzarin


You know, this is only the beginning of the experiment.  I wasn't going to take anything as fact until a good number of people who've used menthol have also gone for a period of time without using it, then used it again, then stopped, etc.... Basically enough that the changes we're getting are definitely induced by menthol. However, I have no doubts that it does effect dreams in one way or another.

If you want to distribute placebos, though, be my guest. It'll sure move this along faster. 



It would have to be double-blind;  the receivers can't know "oh, donor A is giving menthol tablets, and donor B is giving sugar pills."  For a true double-blind study, they can't know either what they are receiving or what they are expecting, really.  If a test client knew he had a sugar pill, he could very easily expect to have no results._

----------


## Alyzarin

> It would have to be double-blind;  the receivers can't know "oh, donor A is giving menthol tablets, and donor B is giving sugar pills."  For a true double-blind study, they can't know either what they are receiving or what they are expecting, really.  If a test client knew he had a sugar pill, he could very easily expect to have no results.



I'm well aware of this, but I'm not the one who publicly brought up the placebos.  :tongue2:

----------


## Wolfwood

> It would have to be double-blind;  the receivers can't know "oh, donor A is giving menthol tablets, and donor B is giving sugar pills."  For a true double-blind study, they can't know either what they are receiving or what they are expecting, really.  If a test client knew he had a sugar pill, he could very easily expect to have no results.



There's really no need to go straight into a double blind study when there's not yet a substantial amount of claims of menthol's effect on dreams. 

Besides, given that all participants are on the DV forum, they'd have to self-medicate  -- of course, one could make two drinks: one with peppermint extract, and another with peppermint artificial flavouring, and then randomly choose one to drink before bed to rule out placebo. However, you can't trust that someone is going to do this, and if we're going to be objective about this, then you can't trust people's reports either. Too easy to fabricate. There's not enough participants to minimise the effect of fabricated reports.

So I wouldn't worry about this being all strict and objectively measured. It simply can't given the circumstances and nature of results.

----------


## Wolfwood

> Well, I did originally post the template he used.  But no, I haven't done anything like that. That could be corrected easily, though.



Yeah, sometimes I can be blind. It's old age. How much tea are you 'aving tonight?

----------


## Alyzarin

> Are you putting this into a spreadsheet or anything, Aly? I think if we kept to some format, say.. like RobStar's, it'd be pretty easy to collate.
> 
> I'm interested in how many have sexual dreams actually.



After realizing that I'm going to have to wait until my laptop works again to make a spread sheet, I just did a quick scan. Keep in mind that this is conservative, as I included ones that were counted as failed attempts, and a few didn't really explain the dream contents (with the assumption that they were non-sexual, to be as fair as possible). This count left me with 9 incidences of sexual themes, vs 23 incidences total. This is talking about nights in general.... That is to say, for example, the four you had that one night count as 1 incident. Honestly, I think that's pretty good, myself. >w<

----------


## Wolfwood

> After realizing that I'm going to have to wait until my laptop works again to make a spread sheet, I just did a quick scan. Keep in mind that this is conservative, as I included ones that were counted as failed attempts, and a few didn't really explain the dream contents (with the assumption that they were non-sexual, to be as fair as possible). This count left me with 9 incidences of sexual themes, vs 23 incidences total. This is talking about nights in general.... That is to say, for example, the four you had that one night count as 1 incident. Honestly, I think that's pretty good, myself. >w<



Interesting, but aren't around 4 days worth from me or what? Actually... mine came about after cessation of menthol ingestion.

Bah, I can't remember.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Yeah, sometimes I can be blind. It's old age. How much tea are you 'aving tonight?



I'm not sure if I'll be going for the tea tonight yet, though I might try the candies again lol. I'm trying to be conservative with my use of the tea. To be honest, the side effect list from it kind of makes me nervous. >w< I did used to be a bit of a hypochondriac after all, but I don't feel quite as bad about eating the peppermint patties.





> Interesting, but aren't around 4 days worth from me or what?



I want to say that they came from me, you, littlezoe, RobStar, and Thena. I think that was it.... Also, keep in mind that there were positive emotional effects aside from sexual effects noted in some of those others, like Kaomea's happy dreams.

----------


## Wolfwood

> I'm not sure if I'll be going for the tea tonight yet, though I might try the candies again lol. I'm trying to be conservative with my use of the tea. To be honest, the side effect list from it kind of makes me nervous. >w< I did used to be a bit of a hypochondriac after all, but I don't feel quite as bad about eating the peppermint patties.
> 
> 
> 
> I want to say that they came from me, you, littlezoe, RobStar, and Thena. I think that was it.... Also, keep in mind that there were positive emotional effects aside from sexual effects noted in some of those others, like Kaomea's happy dreams.



Oh yes. With me, I woke up naked. And then further on, I consumed a whole pack and had perceptual distortions and minor disconnection. Then right after that 'massive' amount, no longer consuming any, the sexual dreams came on full throttle. 

I'll just wait until I get the peppermint tea before I report consistently. I was quite erratic before.  ::lol::  But, side effects you say... you mean what RobStar and others have posted or some official source?

----------


## Alyzarin

> Oh yes. With me, I woke up naked. And then further on, I consumed a whole pack and had perceptual distortions and minor disconnection. Then right after that 'massive' amount, no longer consuming any, the sexual dreams came on full throttle. 
> 
> I'll just wait until I get the peppermint tea before I report consistently. I was quite erratic before.  But, side effects you say... you mean what RobStar and others have posted or some official source?



Yeah, you didn't exactly start out in a mundane fashion.  ::chuckle::  I'm wondering about the post-dose sexual dreams as well, like I mentioned before.... At some point, I think everyone who is dosing constantly should take a break (like they should anyway, since we're treading in unknown waters here) and see how their dreams are effected for a week or two (at the most) afterward. That'll help us stack up the effects against regular dreams again, and potentially show if the effects do stick around for a while.

Mainly what was posted here in the thread. It's nothing I would actually caution others against though, aside from extended high-dose use. I just have kind of some anxieties against taking things every single day now, the same reason I didn't take the cough drops every night.... I already did that once with lots of drugs and it went terribly wrong. And I know that's a totally different matter, but it tends to stick with you. >w<

----------


## Alyzarin

More Random Tidbits

The kappa-opioid receptor, which menthol activates, antagonizes many of the effects of the mu-opioid receptor. (μ-Opposing actions of the κ-opioid receptor)

The mu-opioid receptor inhibits REM sleep. (Opioid inhibition of rapid eye movement sleep by a specific mu receptor agonist)

Prolactin, which the kappa-opioid receptor increases levels of, has a regulatory role in REM sleep. (Rapid Eye Movement Sleep Is Reduced in Prolactin-Deficient Mice)

Kappa-opioid agonists potentiate locomotor sensitization caused by D2 agonists. (Kappa-opioid agonist U69593 potentiates locomotor sensitization to the D2/D3 agonist quinpirole: pre- and postsynaptic mechanisms.)

So hmmm.... Personally, I think this adds some weight to the prolactin/phenethylamine theory, as kappa-opioid receptors directly reduce dopamine, so how else would they be potentiating D2 effects...? Hard to say, though. More interestingly, I think, is the involvement of prolactin in REM and the mu- vs kappa-opioid receptor relationship. Prolactin and dopamine are inversely correlated, but prolactin peaks during REM sleep _and_ the dopaminergic areas of the brain are required for dreams. So how else could this effect be achieved aside from phenethylamine? Aside from that, mu-opioid receptors are the target of endorphins.... Is that why it takes practice to be able to stay in a dream after orgasming? Are the endorphins directly blocking the effect of the kappa-opioid receptor-induced prolactin and phenethylamine release? If this is true, the kappa-opioid receptors could potentially play an even larger part in dreams than I thought, just maybe.... If that's the case, then menthol legitimately is just enhancing the core dream-generating effects of the brain.

...More research is required. >w<

----------


## littlezoe

So, today i took 3 Negros again... but i have a so painful migraine that i just can't fall asleep at all  :Sad:  Then it started raining (finally!), but the thunder was really loud, like it was above the house, so that didn't help either.

Too bad i couldn't do 3 in a row... but i'll try again tomorrow  :Sad:

----------


## Carrot

> lol.... so your fridge is stocked with sweets.



Because I don't eat them.  ::chuckle:: 

Grandma eats more sweets than I do. And I thought it'll be good to tell Aly that I dreamt of finding flu pills with menthol because I was having a little flu in my dream, but I was planning on overeating more than the required amount.

----------


## Highlander

> Are you putting this into a spreadsheet or anything, Aly? I think if we kept to some format, say.. like RobStar's, it'd be pretty easy to collate.



No it wasn't my idea for the template. I'd seen the post by Aly and had five day's results to put in backdated.





> Well, I did originally post the template he used.  But no, I haven't done anything like that. That could be corrected easily, though.



I think the basis/idea for the template was by Kaomea. Alyzarin took it on and implemented it. They are the ones who should be credited.
Me, I'm just a guinea pig. I only have to answer to God.

(P.S: Sorry if the last sentence comes over a bit 'odd'. It is just me trying to deal with the irony of life. Just like that Alanis Morrisette song!)  :Thinking:

----------


## Mindraker

_





 Originally Posted by Wolfwood


There's really no need to go straight into a double blind study when there's not yet a substantial amount of claims of menthol's effect on dreams. 

Besides, given that all participants are on the DV forum, they'd have to self-medicate...



True, lots more work and effort.  It is much more difficult that everyone is not in one place._

----------


## Highlander

Last night/this mornings escapades:


Wed July 11th 2012

*Dose:* 88.2 mg Cough drops
*Side Effects:* Insomnia (Chronic)
*Sleep Duration:* 4.25 hrs after
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Main dream featured lucid dreaming in actual discussion. Lots of reverie and visuals. Dream fragments. Inability to drop off to sleep easily. Stomach ok however.

Me and my two Brothers. Lucid dream discussion and the Tour de France - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## isthisit

I tried the 3rd night last night, and unfortunately it will be my last. It wasn't a bad experience as such, but i just don't feel it's worth it for me. Here's the results!

*Dose:* 2 x menthol sweets - amount not specified. (Jakemans Blackcurrant menthol sweets from Boots)
*Side Effects:* Bad 1st hour of sleep, with some nightmarish quality but not enough to be real fear.
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours sleep before taking
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Same as always
*Stability:* Same
*Dream Comments:* Mostly I had issues with falling to sleep, my thoughts were a bit fearful as I drifted into sleep, which seemed to take longer then usual, and I was 'shocked' or 'jumped' awake every 5 mins for the first hour. Nothing too bad, but enough to put it down to menthol. It's never happened before. 


Here's a record of the night's dreams; (before and after the menthol) 

10.07.2012 - 6 x dreams and some bad sleep (menthol?) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Alyzarin

> So, today i took 3 Negros again... but i have a so painful migraine that i just can't fall asleep at all  Then it started raining (finally!), but the thunder was really loud, like it was above the house, so that didn't help either.
> 
> Too bad i couldn't do 3 in a row... but i'll try again tomorrow



Aww, that sucks!  ::blue::  I hope you're feeling better now, at least....





> Because I don't eat them. 
> 
> Grandma eats more sweets than I do. And I thought it'll be good to tell Aly that I dreamt of finding flu pills with menthol because I was having a little flu in my dream, but I was planning on overeating more than the required amount.



Hahaha, nice.  ::chuckle::  At least you're clearly dedicated to the cause.  ::lol:: 





> I think the basis/idea for the template was by Kaomea.



Indeed it was.  :Nod yes: 





> Last night/this mornings escapades:
> 
> 
> Wed July 11th 2012
> 
> *Dose:* 88.2 mg Cough drops
> *Side Effects:* Insomnia (Chronic)
> *Sleep Duration:* 4.25 hrs after
> *WBTB:* Yes
> ...



I see, I see.... Alright, let me ask you something else. You took a higher dose than normal and you noted lots of visuals, but still with typical vividness and stability. Do you think that maybe the reason your dreams started off a bit more vivid from the menthol but are now becoming typical even with the increased effects is because your mind is becoming more used to the enhanced state of dreaming? I ask because I can compare this to hallucinogens, as I believe they work through the same mechanisms.... For example, say you take LSD for the first time. You're hallucinating, and you're blown away! You've never seen anything like this before, it's crazy. A few days later, you decide to trip again. It's still badass! Not as intense as before, but definitely a wild ride. A few days later, you go for it again.... Now, you can keep this up for a while, but a few days reaaally isn't enough time to let your tolerance go down for something like LSD. Eventually you're going to reach a point where you're still hallucinating just as hard or harder than your first time, but it doesn't have that same sense of overwhelming intensity, just more of a... "alright, that's cool, but what else have you got?"

Essentially what I'm getting at is, do you think that an increase in vividness from the first few doses of menthol may actually be a byproduct of your brain responding to a more "enhanced" dream, but afterwards you get used to it and continue on as normal? Now, don't get me wrong.... There's certainly nothing wrong with euphoric, visually complex, or romantic or sexually-charged non-lucids... but I'm wondering if the true benefit of menthol comes not just from using it alone, but from combining it with a stronger cognition enhancer. Basically, taking a dream enhancer AND an established powerful lucid aid.





> I tried the 3rd night last night, and unfortunately it will be my last. It wasn't a bad experience as such, but i just don't feel it's worth it for me. Here's the results!
> 
> *Dose:* 2 x menthol sweets - amount not specified. (Jakemans Blackcurrant menthol sweets from Boots)
> *Side Effects:* Bad 1st hour of sleep, with some nightmarish quality but not enough to be real fear.
> *Sleep Duration:* 7 hours sleep before taking
> *WBTB:* Yes
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* Same as always
> *Stability:* Same
> ...



Alright, I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, but thanks so much for the tests you've done! It helps a lot.  :smiley:

----------


## Wolfwood

Still post-menthol atm, and I had yet another series of heavily sexual dreams. And I'm an idiot because I went to store and forgot to buy the damned tea -- I ended up walking out of there with some apple turnovers. >_>

----------


## Alyzarin

> Still post-menthol atm, and I had yet another series of heavily sexual dreams. And I'm an idiot because I went to store and forgot to buy the damned tea -- I ended up walking out of there with some apple turnovers. >_>



I suppose it'd be wishful thinking to suggest that it causes a permanent increase in sexual dreams. XD Is this still out of the ordinary for you? Have you been abstaining or anything?

Hahahaha.  :Big laugh:  Well... apple turnovers are pretty delicious.  ::lol::

----------


## Wolfwood

> I suppose it'd be wishful thinking to suggest that it causes a permanent increase in sexual dreams. XD Is this still out of the ordinary for you? Have you been abstaining or anything?
> 
> Hahahaha.  Well... apple turnovers are pretty delicious.



Naa, about 1-2x a day... once before I sleep. So I'm surprised my dreams still contain all those sexual elements. It's certainly out of the ordinary because I tend to have a sexual dream in the morning when testosterone is highest, but not throughout the whole night. O_O Haha, so wishful thinking perhaps, but the pattern so far is somewhat abnormal.

<3 Apple turnovers -- they seduced me, whisked my mind away.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Naa, about 1-2x a day... once before I sleep. So I'm surprised my dreams still contain all those sexual elements. It's certainly out of the ordinary because I tend to have a sexual dream in the morning when testosterone is highest, but not throughout the whole night. O_O Haha, so wishful thinking perhaps, but the pattern so far is somewhat abnormal.
> 
> <3 Apple turnovers -- they seduced me, whisked my mind away.



Hmmm, that is pretty interesting.... I wonder if it's just related to the large doses you were taking? I got pretty distracted and forgot to dose last night, but I did get a lucid. However, it wasn't overly sexual, though it was vivid. When was the last time you dosed again? *feeling too lazy to scan the thread again at the moment*

----------


## Wolfwood

> Hmmm, that is pretty interesting.... I wonder if it's just related to the large doses you were taking? I got pretty distracted and forgot to dose last night, but I did get a lucid. However, it wasn't overly sexual, though it was vivid. When was the last time you dosed again? *feeling too lazy to scan the thread again at the moment*



On the 7th July

I consumed 120-130mg within 1hour, and just realised that throughout the same day I had also been eating the rest of the lockets... around 40-50mg.

Was your dream in any way 'emotional', linked to the basic desires, or intense in some capacity? Just trying to see if all the dreams share an underlying 'element'.

----------


## Alyzarin

> On the 7th July
> 
> I consumed 120-130mg within 1hour, and just realised that throughout the same day I had also been eating the rest of the lockets... around 40-50mg.
> 
> Was your dream in any way 'emotional', linked to the basic desires, or intense in some capacity? Just trying to see if all the dreams share an underlying 'element'.



Oh wow, so you dosed even higher that day.  ::chuckle:: 

It definitely had an emotional feel to it, though I'm not sure how rational of a thought it was.... But I suppose, in a situation like this, it's the feeling that counts, right? At the time, I felt that the dream was connecting me to my childhood memories. Unfortunately I only vividly remember the end where I became lucid, but it was a pretty long dream. I was with an old friend and thought to myself something along the lines of "I wonder if this is a shared dream.... Oh snap, I'm dreaming!"  ::roll::  To test just how stable of a potential shared dream partner my friend was, I slapped him on the back, causing him to burst into sand as my hand continued to go right through where he had been. That was kind of intense.  ::lol::  The setting was in a forest that was also extremely detailed, though natural scenes are often more vivid in my lucids. In the end I happened to look down at myself and notice that I was wearing what appeared to be a transparent white one-piece bathing suit, which, while not to the same extent as the menthol dreams, did make me kind of horny. (Yeah, you don't have to say it again.  :tongue2: ) I got in my old car which I had happened to park in that forest much earlier in the dream, and shortly after I got behind the wheel the dream collapsed. I guess I would say it did have sort of an intense feel to it, that emotional aspect of it was probably the most significant.

----------


## Highlander

> I see, I see.... Alright, let me ask you something else. You took a higher dose than normal and you noted lots of visuals, but still with typical vividness and stability. Do you think that maybe the reason your dreams started off a bit more vivid from the menthol but are now becoming typical even with the increased effects is because your mind is becoming more used to the enhanced state of dreaming? I ask because I can compare this to hallucinogens, as I believe they work through the same mechanisms.... For example, say you take LSD for the first time. You're hallucinating, and you're blown away! You've never seen anything like this before, it's crazy. A few days later, you decide to trip again. It's still badass! Not as intense as before, but definitely a wild ride. A few days later, you go for it again.... Now, you can keep this up for a while, but a few days reaaally isn't enough time to let your tolerance go down for something like LSD. Eventually you're going to reach a point where you're still hallucinating just as hard or harder than your first time, but it doesn't have that same sense of overwhelming intensity, just more of a... "alright, that's cool, but what else have you got?"
> 
> Essentially what I'm getting at is, do you think that an increase in vividness from the first few doses of menthol may actually be a byproduct of your brain responding to a more "enhanced" dream, but afterwards you get used to it and continue on as normal? Now, don't get me wrong.... There's certainly nothing wrong with euphoric, visually complex, or romantic or sexually-charged non-lucids... but I'm wondering if the true benefit of menthol comes not just from using it alone, but from combining it with a stronger cognition enhancer. Basically, taking a dream enhancer AND an established powerful lucid aid.



It's hard to say. It's quite feasible that I have built up a tolerance, etc. I will have to do a 'clean' WBTB or two to see if I get a rebound effect from the lack of the menthol. I suppose with dreams as well it can be subjective. Some lucids seem 'real' whereas some are a lot weaker, whether menthol induced or not, even if you stick to the same routines. I think it is a question of recall. I don't know but I think you can get desensitised over time. I don't know much about LSD as I have never taken it, nor done really much research about it, although it is an interesting subject in itself. One amazing chemical compound.
I think these differences in sensitization are also present when I drank apple juice. I found that helped initially by increasing my awareness and recall levels, yet on some days (same routine/same amount) I found I struggled. 
There may also be a gender thing going on as well with differing effects (regarding sex and libido levels) in men and women? Generally with me it tends to act like a stimulant, probably due to the other ingredients in the cough drops as I get sleeplessness. If I try a purer form would no doubt answer that question. I might try BEFORE I go to bed, then compare any differences?
In the future it might benefit me more when attempting WILD buy keeping my alertness threshold slightly higher, then drop it at the crucial moment (when the dream is forming.) It (menthol) might help me with certain exercises to build up visualization skills due to the spontaneous imagery which seems to be created (in my case) without much effort. This may help reach DILD easier?
Regarding combinations. No doubt it would work depending on the person and the other compound. A sort of 'pick and mix' down the local chemist/herbstore/sweet shop perhaps?
I have got thoughts by using one with another, a bit like Lennon and MacCartney, or Fred Astaire/Ginger Rogers, but I don't want to get ahead of myself if it ends up more Jedward and Ronald MacDonald where I end up running to the toilet every 5 min.

----------


## Carrot

How do you check how much menthol is in the sweet? And my fridge is quite empty of sore throat sweets. My guess is grandma was eating them because she's having a terrible cough.

----------


## Linkzelda

Wednesday July 11th, 2012
*
Dose:* 19.6 mg of Cherry Halls Cough Drop Tablets (9.8 mg for each tablet)
*Side Effects:* Nah, slept like a baby
*Sleep Duration:* 3-5 hours I believe
*WBTB:* No
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Yes 
*Stability:* A bit blurry at first in the first dream I recalled, but everything else ended up being just fine.
*Dream Comments:*  (I found I could zoom in naturally at a helicopter window that was blurry before)





> I finally reach a dead end, and I quickly turn around, things get a little faster, but not too fast, normal-paced now. I see a black helicopter coming in my direction, and I feel like the person inside is trying to shoot me. I quickly aim my guy and the window, but I couldn't see anything beyond that.
> 
> Then I did something crazy, I literally zoomed in to the window naturally. I don't know if it's because I'm still feeling the adrenaline from having to avoid and kill some enemies, random luck, or just a natural skill I never paid attention to.



*Dose:* 19.6 mg of Cherry Halls Cough Drop Tablets (9.8 mg for each tablet)
*Side Effects:* Nope, slept just fine, even when it took nearly an hour or more to type up the first set of dreams before/during the WBTB attempt
*Sleep Duration:* 1-2 hours after the first set above
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* Yes
*Vividness:* Average-almost crystal clear
*Stability:* Not so much on the lucid, but non-lucids were just fine
*Dream Comments:*  I don't know why I said "Eva's Bedroom" like 4-5+ times....I honestly didn't expect to become lucid, but when I did do a reality check, I was like.....holy.....


And here's the actual dream journal entry ----->Here<----

----------


## Wolfwood

> How do you check how much menthol is in the sweet? And my fridge is quite empty of sore throat sweets. My guess is grandma was eating them because she's having a terrible cough.



If not on the back of the packet, then do a wiki or google check from the brand name.

----------


## Carrot

> If not on the back of the packet, then do a wiki or google check from the brand name.



Done all that. Still doesn't tell me how much menthol it contains. Unless I can attempt it without knowing the dosage.  ::o: 

I was thinking of trying this because I like it. 


Nin Jiom Herbal Candy

----------


## Mindraker

_





 Originally Posted by Wolfwood


I always go in skeptical... and well, I've not had any lucid success. Yet, unexpectedly...4 nights worth of multiple dreams were completely sexual.

Anyway... a supplement that claims to increase lucidity is perfect if it does just that (whether placebo or real), right? ^_^




That's a question that even modern medicine tackles all the time.  Heck, if a sugar pill OR prescription medication were the cure to HIV or cancer, I wouldn't really care;  they both work._

----------


## Wolfwood

> Done all that. Still doesn't tell me how much menthol it contains. Unless I can attempt it without knowing the dosage. 
> 
> I was thinking of trying this because I like it. 
> 
> 
> Nin Jiom Herbal Candy



Hmm, well all I can say is that ingredients are listed with the largest amount coming first. I know that's not much use, but at least you know relatively. I'll look online.

That candy:

-Sugar, glucose syrup, water, natural herb extract, flavour & flavouring, color (caramel E150d) and menthol.

And strangely, that being the case, your tin recommends consuming 1-4 a day. O_O Makes it seem like there's a ton in there (given the rest of the ingredients look relatively mundane).

----------


## Carrot

> Hmm, well all I can say is that ingredients are listed with the largest amount coming first. I know that's not much use, but at least you know relatively. I'll look online.
> 
> That candy:
> 
> -Sugar, glucose syrup, water, natural herb extract, flavour & flavouring, color (caramel E150d) and menthol.
> 
> And strangely, that being the case, your tin recommends consuming 1-4 a day. O_O Makes it seem like there's a ton in there (given the rest of the ingredients look relatively mundane).



How do you find information so fast? So how many should I eat? I think I've taken a whole lot of them and falling sleep on a day when I was having sore throat and rushing my final assignment at the same time.

Edit: I just realised Vicks Inhaler contains menthol too. But they mentioned its inactive ingredient (no idea what that means). Inhaling menthol works?

http://www.vicks.com/products/vapo-f...estion-relief/

----------


## Wolfwood

> How do you find information so fast? So how many should I eat? I think I've taken a whole lot of them and falling sleep on a day when I was having sore throat and rushing my final assignment at the same time.
> 
> Edit: I just realised Vicks Inhaler contains menthol too. But they mentioned its inactive ingredient (no idea what that means). Inhaling menthol works?
> 
> Vicks VapoInhaler for Nasal Congestion Relief



How many do you get in a tin of 60g? 

If 20, I'd try 2 based on the weight. Halls were around 30g for 10, and two contained around 25-30mg... if no success, then try a few more. Though, this ingredient listed as 'Natural herb extract' (whatever that is), may be the reason it's suggested you have 1-4 a day.

I think inactive means it's not the main means of effect/action. An inactive ingredient usually just means it's there as a flavouring or to bulk. So, menthol being listed as inactive would imply its mg is below the threshold of effective action... or that the menthol acts as a secondary means to increase the effectiveness of the active ingredient. Don't quote me on that though. ^_^

----------


## Carrot

> How many do you get in a tin of 60g? 
> 
> If 20, I'd try 2 based on the weight. Halls were around 30g for 10, and two contained around 25-30mg... if no success, then try a few more. Though, this ingredient listed as 'Natural herb extract' (whatever that is), may be the reason it's suggested you have 1-4 a day.
> 
> I think inactive means it's not the main means of effect/action. An inactive ingredient usually just means it's there as a flavouring or to bulk. So, menthol being listed as inactive would imply its mg is below the threshold of effective action... or that the menthol acts as a secondary means to increase the effectiveness of the active ingredient. Don't quote me on that though. ^_^



What's the recommended number to take for halls?

----------


## Linkzelda

There's usually 9.8 mg of Menthol in Halls Cough drops, so 2-3 tablets should be safe, at least that's what Alyzarin told me. And about the inactive menthol thing, menthol itself activates the kappa receptors, which exposes the dopamine floating around in the brain to actually be used. It's sort of a catalyst for prolactin, while at the same time, increases the amount of dopamine without it being regulated too much.

Alyzarin will correct me if I'm wrong. xP

----------


## Wolfwood

> What's the recommended number to take for halls?



No more than 1 whole pack in 24hrs, which is equivalent to 9 sweets @ 30g for the whole pack.

In 24 hours on the 7th, I had a whole pack and 1/3 of a packet of Lockets too. I consumed 170-180mg in 24 hours.

So far, the sweets mentioned range from around 8mg to around 16mg per lozenge....


My memory isn't serving me well, so may be off with the above though.

----------


## littlezoe

> There's usually 9.8 mg of Menthol in Halls Cough drops, so 2-3 tablets should be safe, at least that's what Alyzarin told me.



It matters on what kind of Halls are we talking about...

----------


## Carrot

> No more than 1 whole pack in 24hrs, which is equivalent to 9 sweets @ 30g for the whole pack.
> 
> In 24 hours on the 7th, I had a whole pack and 1/3 of a packet of Lockets too. I consumed 170-180mg in 24 hours.
> 
> So far, the sweets mentioned range from around 8mg to around 16mg per lozenge....
> 
> 
> My memory isn't serving me well, so may be off with the above though.



You know, I had been spamming menthol containing sore throat sweets when I have sore throat. I never think too much about the consequences of overeating.  ::|:

----------


## Linkzelda

> It matters on what kind of Halls are we talking about...



The Mentho-Lyptus versions are the ones that are 9.8 mg

----------


## Highlander

> No more than 1 whole pack in 24hrs, which is equivalent to 9 sweets @ 30g for the whole pack.
> 
> In 24 hours on the 7th, I had a whole pack and 1/3 of a packet of Lockets too. I consumed 170-180mg in 24 hours.
> 
> So far, the sweets mentioned range from around 8mg to around 16mg per lozenge....
> 
> 
> My memory isn't serving me well, so may be off with the above though.



What was your sleep quality like when you went to bed? Can you remember it at all?
This morning I had 88.2 mg (x6 extra strong) in half an hour during my WBTB, where after I found it hard to sleep!

 :Insomnia: 






> The Mentho-Lyptus versions are the ones that are 9.8 mg



WTF! No wonder. Look at the size of that packet!!! Lol  ::chuckle::

----------


## littlezoe

> The Mentho-Lyptus versions are the ones that are 9.8 mg



There is a different mentho-lyptus one which is only 6,5mg...



But i didn't know the Cherry one has that much O.o
Does it say that on the package, or what? Because wiki say it has 7mg.

----------


## Wolfwood

> What was your sleep quality like when you went to bed? Can you remember it at all?
> This morning I had 88.2 mg (x6 extra strong) in half an hour during my WBTB, where after I found it hard to sleep!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WTF! No wonder. Look at the size of that packet!!! Lol



Hmm, as far as I can remember, the onset of sleep came quickly and I slept relatively well.... though I spontaneously woke up during the night once or twice (effect of sex in dreams, possibly). I had no stomach discomfort nor nausea.

My Halls were extra strong, and contained around 12-15mg in each lozenge.

----------


## littlezoe

Lol, up until this point i thought that when you say "lozenge" you are talking about a brand of cough drops... i didn't know that lozenge is that shape >.<

----------


## dutchraptor

Lozenge is a stupid word for diamond shaped, it was created to confuse people.

----------


## Carrot

And I thought lozenges are a type of sweets. Lol whatever.

----------


## Wolfwood

lol gotta admit I'd never vocalise lozenge... just the sound of it is awful: "Oh this lozenge is tasty".

----------


## Highlander

> Hmm, as far as I can remember, the onset of sleep came quickly and I slept relatively well.... though I spontaneously woke up during the night once or twice (effect of sex in dreams, possibly). I had no stomach discomfort nor nausea.
> 
> My Halls were extra strong, and contained around 12-15mg in each lozenge.



Cheers for the info. Woolfwood.

By the way these are the ones I used.

12.8 15.8 mg (menthol) per lozenge along with other additives.

----------


## Wolfwood

NP. ^ Yeah, I also had a 1/3 of those with the whole packet of Halls above. Preferred the Lockets for taste though.

----------


## Highlander

> NP. ^ Yeah, I also had a 1/3 of those with the whole packet of Halls above. Preferred the Lockets for taste though.



I like the taste of the Honey and Lemon Lockets, but I hate when they are nearly dissolving and they get stuck on the back of your teeth.

----------


## Alyzarin

> It's hard to say. It's quite feasible that I have built up a tolerance, etc. I will have to do a 'clean' WBTB or two to see if I get a rebound effect from the lack of the menthol. I suppose with dreams as well it can be subjective. Some lucids seem 'real' whereas some are a lot weaker, whether menthol induced or not, even if you stick to the same routines. I think it is a question of recall. I don't know but I think you can get desensitised over time. I don't know much about LSD as I have never taken it, nor done really much research about it, although it is an interesting subject in itself. One amazing chemical compound.
> I think these differences in sensitization are also present when I drank apple juice. I found that helped initially by increasing my awareness and recall levels, yet on some days (same routine/same amount) I found I struggled. 
> There may also be a gender thing going on as well with differing effects (regarding sex and libido levels) in men and women? Generally with me it tends to act like a stimulant, probably due to the other ingredients in the cough drops as I get sleeplessness. If I try a purer form would no doubt answer that question. I might try BEFORE I go to bed, then compare any differences?
> In the future it might benefit me more when attempting WILD buy keeping my alertness threshold slightly higher, then drop it at the crucial moment (when the dream is forming.) It (menthol) might help me with certain exercises to build up visualization skills due to the spontaneous imagery which seems to be created (in my case) without much effort. This may help reach DILD easier?
> Regarding combinations. No doubt it would work depending on the person and the other compound. A sort of 'pick and mix' down the local chemist/herbstore/sweet shop perhaps?
> I have got thoughts by using one with another, a bit like Lennon and MacCartney, or Fred Astaire/Ginger Rogers, but I don't want to get ahead of myself if it ends up more Jedward and Ronald MacDonald where I end up running to the toilet every 5 min.



Alright, thanks for the response.  :smiley:  Yeah, since you've been using it pretty consistently I'm sure you'd be able to tell us what kind of changes taking a break from it has, and then going back on it, etc., which would be pretty helpful. I'd say there's more than likely a gender thing going on, as apparently the analgesia caused by kappa-opioid agonists differs between sexes, and given what I know about it it's probably got a pretty direct relation to hormone levels. However, I'm not sure how much of a role that would or wouldn't play here yet.
If you're good at WILD, I would definitely give it a shot with menthol. I did one by accident with it the first time I tried it (I've yet to do one on purpose), so I'd say it certainly helps. The increased visualization skills go a long way, for me anyway.
Yeah, it'd be interesting to find out what works best with it.  :tongue2:  I may give it a shot with choline or piracetam (oooh, actually, piracetam does sound like a potentially cool mix...) just to see what happens.  ::content:: 





> Wednesday July 11th, 2012
> *
> Dose:* 19.6 mg of Cherry Halls Cough Drop Tablets (9.8 mg for each tablet)
> *Side Effects:* Nah, slept like a baby
> *Sleep Duration:* 3-5 hours I believe
> *WBTB:* No
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* Yes 
> *Stability:* A bit blurry at first in the first dream I recalled, but everything else ended up being just fine.
> ...



A lucid is definitely a good way to start off your tests.  ::rolleyes::  Maybe next time you'll get lucky and actually warp to the correct location.  ::chuckle:: 





> Edit: I just realised Vicks Inhaler contains menthol too. But they mentioned its inactive ingredient (no idea what that means). Inhaling menthol works?
> 
> Vicks VapoInhaler for Nasal Congestion Relief



Yes, inhaling menthol works... in general. For dream purposes? Nah, probably not. For the same reason I mentioned with smoking menthol cigarettes, it'll be eliminated from the body so quickly. Not to mention the fact that the inhaler's active ingredient is levomethamphetamine... which means by the time you reach an effective dream dose of menthol you may have a heart attack or a stroke.





> And about the inactive menthol thing, menthol itself activates the kappa receptors, which exposes the dopamine floating around in the brain to actually be used. It's sort of a catalyst for prolactin, while at the same time, increases the amount of dopamine without it being regulated too much.
> 
> Alyzarin will correct me if I'm wrong. xP



Phenethylamine, not dopamine. >w< It actually lowers dopamine levels. But that doesn't change the fact that in the inhalers it's largely inactive.  :tongue2:

----------


## Highlander

Thanks. I will look into this. I found this experiment has helped me. For example my lucid dreams when I have them are more dynamic and have been longer in length, now to the point where I can test or try things in the dream itself. There is more of a storyline also. I just need to try and get the right balance.
Yes I will have a break later this week and see what happens. Presumably you would still like this recording on the template/dj, thingymebob, etc?

----------


## Carrot

Took me some time to find the template. 12th July 2012.

*Dose:* 2 Nin Jiom Herbal Candy Tangerine-Lemon
*Side Effects:* Nope, except that I was a little excited about it so I took a little longer to get to sleep although I was really tired.
*Sleep Duration:* 8 hours
*WBTB:* No
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Yes but I think my dreams have been decently vivid all the while
*Stability:* Okay
*Dream Comments:* I can't recall my dreams. My recall's not doing too good nowadays and sleeping at screwed up timing (from 9am to 5pm) doesn't help.  :Sad:  I can only recall my first dream was vivid, the rest were all a mess because I got woken up too many times.

----------


## littlezoe

Argh... i'm failing more and more now. For some reason my alarm didn't go off today and i couldn't wake up for WBTB  :Sad: 

I want to start using that template already... aww  :tongue2:

----------


## Carrot

I doubt I'll be much help with my screwed up sleeping timing. But at least I have shown having bad sleeping habits don't help in this research.

----------


## Linkzelda

*Dose:* 29.4 mg of Halls Cherry Cough Drops (3 tablets 9.8 mg each)
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* Around 3-4 hours
*WBTB:* No
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* I can't really tell
*Stability:* Nope
*Dream Comments:* Nothing sexually related, just telling my father off in the dream. I think I took 3, but I spread out how I ate the tablets, so maybe that's why it didn't have much of an effect. I don't know why I took it so early without trying to fall asleep as soon as the last tablet was done.

----------


## Highlander

:Eek:  A bit of a crazy night in more ways than one!  ::banana:: 


Thur July 12th 2012

*Dose:* 63.2 mg Cough drops *(Staged)
*Side Effects:* Insomnia, Stomach upset (Gastric), Diarrhea
*Sleep Duration:* 5 hrs after/3.5 hrs after (8.5 hrs approx)
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* YES (Two)
*Vividness:* Very High
*Stability:* Very High
*Dream Comments:* 
Lucid No.1 had a sinister twist to it. Very vivid, and high quality. Lucid No.2 basically is one of the best lucid dreams I’ve experienced for a very long while. Really dynamic, with a storyline and interaction. Long duration with really strong visual output. Very pure, colourful and fun, with no distortion or loss of control. Rock solid stability throughout. Excellent recall and initial awareness with both examples. No need to RC! Both Memorable.
Odd thoughts, reverie and dream snippets during the night also. Flashback on association noted hours after waking. (Origin: Unknown?)
*(Stages: 1st Dose on retiring for bed. 2nd Dose taken during a toilet break. 3rd and final dose at WBTB.)

Getting Fired. Demonic ex boss. The House of Students - Strippoker? - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Alyzarin

> Thanks. I will look into this. I found this experiment has helped me. For example my lucid dreams when I have them are more dynamic and have been longer in length, now to the point where I can test or try things in the dream itself. There is more of a storyline also. I just need to try and get the right balance.
> Yes I will have a break later this week and see what happens. Presumably you would still like this recording on the template/dj, thingymebob, etc?



I'm so glad that it's helped you so much!  ::content::  If you want to record your non-menthol dreams with the same template, that would be cool.  :smiley:  You don't have to go out of your way if you don't think there's much worth saying other than what you can easily just get out in a sentence-or-two post, though.





> Took me some time to find the template. 12th July 2012.
> 
> *Dose:* 2 Nin Jiom Herbal Candy Tangerine-Lemon
> *Side Effects:* Nope, except that I was a little excited about it so I took a little longer to get to sleep although I was really tired.
> *Sleep Duration:* 8 hours
> *WBTB:* No
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* Yes but I think my dreams have been decently vivid all the while
> *Stability:* Okay
> *Dream Comments:* I can't recall my dreams. My recall's not doing too good nowadays and sleeping at screwed up timing (from 9am to 5pm) doesn't help.  I can only recall my first dream was vivid, the rest were all a mess because I got woken up too many times.



Do you try writing down notes at all whenever you wake up? I wake up a lot during the night (or day, in your case lol) and I use that as an opportunity to increase my recall by writing down everything I can remember each time.





> Argh... i'm failing more and more now. For some reason my alarm didn't go off today and i couldn't wake up for WBTB 
> 
> I want to start using that template already... aww



Haha, I'm sure you'll come out of this slump soon.  :Cheeky:  It wasn't your fault, anyway.  :tongue2: 





> *Dose:* 29.4 mg of Halls Cherry Cough Drops (3 tablets 9.8 mg each)
> *Side Effects:* None
> *Sleep Duration:* Around 3-4 hours
> *WBTB:* No
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* I can't really tell
> *Stability:* Nope
> *Dream Comments:* Nothing sexually related, just telling my father off in the dream. I think I took 3, but I spread out how I ate the tablets, so maybe that's why it didn't have much of an effect. I don't know why I took it so early without trying to fall asleep as soon as the last tablet was done.



So you ate them a while before going to bed? Yeah, that's not good.... You really lower the chances of getting anything out of it that way. Don't do that.  :tongue2: 





> A bit of a crazy night in more ways than one! 
> 
> 
> Thur July 12th 2012
> 
> *Dose:* 63.2 mg Cough drops *(Staged)
> *Side Effects:* Insomnia, Stomach upset (Gastric), Diarrhea
> *Sleep Duration:* 5 hrs after/3.5 hrs after (8.5 hrs approx)
> *WBTB:* Yes
> ...



Sounds like a success to me!  ::D:  I love those insanely vivid lucids, they really can be mind-blowing.... I can't wait to see what other shenanigans you get into.  :tongue2:

----------


## Alyzarin

Oh, forgot to give an update.... I've now had two nights in a row where I didn't take menthol, and my dreams, especially lucids, have definitely lost their minty flavor. I had one DILD and one MILD. The DILD, yesterday, had a slight (_very_ slight) sexual edge to it, but none of the menthol libido feeling... basically, nothing out of the ordinary. The MILD, today, while memorable just because of what I ended up achieving, was pretty plain as far as the style of my lucids goes. I definitely need to dose again tonight so I can get that nifty little mood boost back.  ::rolleyes::

----------


## Carrot

> Do you try writing down notes at all whenever you wake up? I wake up a lot during the night (or day, in your case lol) and I use that as an opportunity to increase my recall by writing down everything I can remember each time.



Nope. I usually don't wake up during my sleep unless I get awoken by obvious sounds. But my recall was much better before, must be the screwed up sleeping timing and lack of dream recall practices. If you had tried sleeping in the day instead of night, you might get what I am saying.

----------


## Highlander

> Oh, forgot to give an update.... I've now had two nights in a row where I didn't take menthol, and my dreams, especially lucids, have definitely lost their minty flavor. I had one DILD and one MILD. The DILD, yesterday, had a slight (_very_ slight) sexual edge to it, but none of the menthol libido feeling... basically, nothing out of the ordinary. The MILD, today, while memorable just because of what I ended up achieving, was pretty plain as far as the style of my lucids goes. I definitely need to dose again tonight so I can get that nifty little mood boost back.



All things considered though I do think it's a good thing to take a break as it can be demanding.





> I'm so glad that it's helped you so much!  If you want to record your non-menthol dreams with the same template, that would be cool.  You don't have to go out of your way if you don't think there's much worth saying other than what you can easily just get out in a sentence-or-two post, though.




Yep. No problem.





> Sounds like a success to me!  I love those insanely vivid lucids, they really can be mind-blowing.... I can't wait to see what other shenanigans you get into.



Yes, thanks. They were really great. It has got to be one of the most 'real' lucids probably I have experienced, probably in my whole life. At one point in the room everything was so calm and still. The lucid seem to last a good while. 
It was a pity about the end with the physiological event happening, regarding my stomach, which was out of my control. If that had not happened then I'm sure it would have been even more fun, bare flesh and all perhaps! 
However I'm not complaining as I know there is always a next time.
I ended up with typist's/writer's cramp after the wall of text today.
Regards.

----------


## Alyzarin

> All things considered though I do think it's a good thing to take a break as it can be demanding.



Definitely. I try not to take anything every single day anymore, out of habit. And like has been discussed, I do like my regular dreams as well.  :smiley: 





> Yes, thanks. They were really great. It has got to be one of the most 'real' lucids probably I have experienced, probably in my whole life. At one point in the room everything was so calm and still. The lucid seem to last a good while. 
> It was a pity about the end with the physiological event happening, regarding my stomach, which was out of my control. If that had not happened then I'm sure it would have been even more fun, bare flesh and all perhaps! 
> However I'm not complaining as I know there is always a next time.
> I ended up with typist's/writer's cramp after the wall of text today.
> Regards.



Those lucids are so great.  ::content::  I almost always just end up observing my surroundings in those situations, it's unbelievable how vivid they can get....
Yeah, that is a shame. Do you think there's a chance that that will keep happening if you keep using menthol? You do seem to get that side effect a lot.  ::?:  Though, I guess you have just been using the cough drops. Do you think you'll try a different way any time soon just to see if there's a physiological difference?

----------


## Highlander

> Those lucids are so great.  I almost always just end up observing my surroundings in those situations, it's unbelievable how vivid they can get....
> Yeah, that is a shame. Do you think there's a chance that that will keep happening if you keep using menthol? You do seem to get that side effect a lot.  Though, I guess you have just been using the cough drops. Do you think you'll try a different way any time soon just to see if there's a physiological difference?



I know - that's why it's really frustrating when you do wake up sometimes.

It is something I still want to try as it is working for me. I did say beforehand that I did get good results with WBTB, but not this good. 
With the stomach/sleep thing then I must be sensitive to one of the ingredients so I will try the tea perhaps and see how I get on. 
Also it is possible that this is like some sort of feedback loop, not only just involving the Menthol but going on DV as well, which seem to be driving the mind as well if you see what I mean. For example if you get a lucid in the week, record it, research it then you know (in your own head)you are going to get another one at some point, simply because you have done it before.

----------


## whitedreams

Amazon.com: Menthol Crystals 100% Natural 4oz by Greenals: Health & Personal Care 

Anyone wana try this

----------


## Alyzarin

> Amazon.com: Menthol Crystals 100% Natural 4oz by Greenals: Health & Personal Care 
> 
> Anyone wana try this



That depends on how easy they are to crush into a powder.  ::huh:: 

Purchased some, regardless. Thanks for that!  ::content::

----------


## Alyzarin

> I know - that's why it's really frustrating when you do wake up sometimes.
> 
> It is something I still want to try as it is working for me. I did say beforehand that I did get good results with WBTB, but not this good. 
> With the stomach/sleep thing then I must be sensitive to one of the ingredients so I will try the tea perhaps and see how I get on. 
> Also it is possible that this is like some sort of feedback loop, not only just involving the Menthol but going on DV as well, which seem to be driving the mind as well if you see what I mean. For example if you get a lucid in the week, record it, research it then you know (in your own head)you are going to get another one at some point, simply because you have done it before.



For sure, for sure. I'm definitely lucid a lot more when I get really involved on DV, thinking about it goes a long way. There's certainly nothing wrong with taking advantage of that, though. I'm fine with a self-sustaining dream enhancer.  :tongue2:

----------


## littlezoe

Awww yeah!  ::D: 

*Dose:* 3 Negros (unknown dose)
*Side Effects:* Light Stomachache
*Sleep Duration:* Around 1 hour 10 minutes after taking the candies
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* Yes
*Vividness:* Usual, but feelings were more powerful
*Stability:* Maybe a little bit better than usually
*Dream Comments:* 

Third time in a row that i was able to fall asleep after taking the 3 Negros and i had a lucid yet again  ::D:  That's basically 3 in a row now, which is really promising in my opinion  :smiley: 

DJ Entry: Girl School, Hug Time - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

I noticed that my feelings were more powerful than usually, especially at the hug part, which just made it even more awesome  :smiley: 

As a side effect, i had a light stomachache just after i took all 3 candies, but i seem to have this everytime i take them... it doesn't really distract me though.

----------


## Linkzelda

*Dose:* 2 tablets of Halls Cough Drop (9.8 mg each)
*Side Effects:* No
*Sleep Duration:* 3.5-4 hours
*WBTB:* No
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* No
*Stability:* No
*Dream Comments:* 

I didn't remember any dreams, but I figured I just post anyway. I didn't wake up with anything sticking out thankfully. >.>

----------


## Highlander

A bit different. A bit sexy...

Fri July 13th 2012

*Dose:* 15.8 mg Cough drops
*Side Effects:* Insomnia (Chronic)
*Sleep Duration:* 3.5 hrs after
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Dream snippets and visuals, one sexual. Vibrations in one dream. General sleeplessness. Stomach ok.

Hypnagogia, GF at my bedroom door, The Fridge, Snippets, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Wolfwood

> That depends on how easy they are to crush into a powder. 
> 
> Purchased some, regardless. Thanks for that!



I can only assume you have sub-gram electronic scales.  :tongue2:

----------


## dutchraptor

Okay my recall has been terrible the last few days but I just realized something, I've had sexy dreams for the past three days. It definitely links up to the mint because they are seriously rare otherwise. Wow I thought I didn't get that effect. Btw here's an article on peppermint as an aphrodisiac Peppermint

----------


## Wolfwood

> According to traditional sources, inhaling peppermint scent can activate the imagination and bring about erotic dreams among women.







> If applied on the skin produces a cooling and exciting sensation which makes the erogenous zones in women more receptive to sexual pleasure.







> This dilates the blood vessels and aids the supply of oxygen-rich blood to various organs including the vagina among women.....making it easier to be sexually aroused and achieve intense orgasms.







> Been used since the time of ancient Greeks, when the physician Galen advocated its use to arouse desire among women.



Alright, I'll keep a vial in my pocket.

----------


## Alyzarin

Well, I ended up skipping again last night because I felt rather unhealthy (nothing serious, just some random anxiety) and I didn't want to push it, but I'll be getting those menthol crystals soon enough anyway, so hopefully that'll amount to something.  ::rolleyes::  I got the email that they had shipped this morning. I think if I do try something again before then, which I probably will tonight if there aren't any other unforeseen circumstances, it'll probably just be mint candies.... Those seem to work out pretty well, apparently.  :tongue2: 

For the record, I did get lucid last night, but it was again totally ordinary. I also had an _incredibly_ vivid non-lucid, but that's another story entirely. I don't think it was connected so much to any supplemental effects as much as it was just the environment of it all. It felt totally like a lucid in every way, even knowing that there were absolutely no consequences to my actions, except that I believed it all to be real. Very interesting.... Should've taken the menthol for it. >w<





> Awww yeah! 
> 
> *Dose:* 3 Negros (unknown dose)
> *Side Effects:* Light Stomachache
> *Sleep Duration:* Around 1 hour 10 minutes after taking the candies
> *WBTB:* Yes
> *Lucid:* Yes
> *Vividness:* Usual, but feelings were more powerful
> *Stability:* Maybe a little bit better than usually
> ...



Alright, three for three!  ::D:  One more and it's a true success, eh?  ::rolleyes::  Whenever I took it the second time and hugged a DC it felt insanely real too, it was pretty wonderful. It seems like I always get much stronger tactile sensations from it... a very nice effect.  :smiley: 





> *Dose:* 2 tablets of Halls Cough Drop (9.8 mg each)
> *Side Effects:* No
> *Sleep Duration:* 3.5-4 hours
> *WBTB:* No
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* No
> *Stability:* No
> *Dream Comments:* 
> 
> I didn't remember any dreams, but I figured I just post anyway. I didn't wake up with anything sticking out thankfully. >.>



Yeah, you probably didn't really get a good enough amount of sleep to see much of an effect from it. Have you thought about dosing a bit higher next time?





> A bit different. A bit sexy...
> 
> Fri July 13th 2012
> 
> *Dose:* 15.8 mg Cough drops
> *Side Effects:* Insomnia (Chronic)
> *Sleep Duration:* 3.5 hrs after
> *WBTB:* Yes
> *Lucid:* No
> ...



I'm glad to hear your stomach was okay this time.  :tongue2:  Sounds like a cool night, woo for more sexual themes!  ::D: 





> I can only assume you have sub-gram electronic scales.



I might, I might.  ::rolleyes:: 

...Actually I don't, but I know where to get one.  :tongue2:  I'm prepared.  :Cheeky: 





> Okay my recall has been terrible the last few days but I just realized something, I've had sexy dreams for the past three days. It definitely links up to the mint because they are seriously rare otherwise. Wow I thought I didn't get that effect. Btw here's an article on peppermint as an aphrodisiac Peppermint



Hell yes! Thanks for that article.  :boogie:  And I'm glad to hear it's been giving you the sexual dreams as well.  :tongue2:  So how much have you been drinking every night? Are you still trying that mixed recipe you made?

----------


## dutchraptor

Yes I'm still drinking the mixture just without the green tea and clary sage oils (I didn't like the flavour). It really does work quite well, all day long I am concentrated and aware if I drink it in the morning. I'd say I drink about two cups each day. I have a week free of work so I can really check if the vividness of my dreams increases now  :smiley: .

----------


## littlezoe

> Alright, three for three!  One more and it's a true success, eh?  Whenever I took it the second time and hugged a DC it felt insanely real too, it was pretty wonderful. It seems like I always get much stronger tactile sensations from it... a very nice effect.



Exactly, the feeling just felt so real that i was surprised at it  ::D:  I couldn't really put it into words that well, but that feeling was really vivid and life-like... i'm not even sure if a hug felt that real before in any of my dreams so far  :smiley: 


If only i could find out the dose of the Negro candy.... but i see no way to do so other than calling the info-line... but if it's really that much of a secret, then they probably wouldn't tell me on that line either  :Sad: 
Is there any way i could work it out with using the numbers of other things it contains? 

Also... make that 5 instead of 4... 5 is a much nicer number as a success and doesn't make my OCD senses tingle, lol.

----------


## Alyzarin

> If only i could find out the dose of the Negro candy.... but i see no way to do so other than calling the info-line... but if it's really that much of a secret, then they probably wouldn't tell me on that line either 
> Is there any way i could work it out with using the numbers of other things it contains? 
> 
> Also... make that 5 instead of 4... 5 is a much nicer number as a success and doesn't make my OCD senses tingle, lol.



Without directly asking them, no, probably not. :T I mean, as long as it works for you, I suppose it's not that big of a deal for now.... We'll figure it out soon enough.  :smiley: 

And I completely understand, 5 is a much cleaner number.  :tongue2:

----------


## Wolfwood

> Also... make that 5 instead of 4... 5 is a much nicer number as a success and doesn't make my OCD senses tingle, lol.



But.... it's not a multiple of 3! Get 6!  :tongue2:

----------


## littlezoe

> Without directly asking them, no, probably not. :T I mean, as long as it works for you, I suppose it's not that big of a deal for now.... We'll figure it out soon enough.



Yeah i suppose... after all i don't know of anyone else from Hungary who is active on this forum, so i guess none of your could actually get some Negro anyway :/

But it bothers me somewhat that i just can't tell the dose -.-







> But.... it's not a multiple of 3! Get 6!



It's more complex than that >.>

When talking about invidual numbers and not related to something physical (like candy) then numbers like 5 and 0 are much much better. 3 and 6 would annoy me if that would be the goal for something  :tongue2: 

4 is not good either... i feel like it must end with 5 or 0  :smiley: 

Multiples of 3 are only okay in real life, when i accidenly make it 4, so i have to correct it to 6 or 9 xD But i'll stop this weirdness now  :tongue2:

----------


## Wolfwood

> It's more complex than that >.>
> 
> When talking about invidual numbers and not related to something physical (like candy) then numbers like 5 and 0 are much much better. 3 and 6 would annoy me if that would be the goal for something 
> 
> 4 is not good either... i feel like it must end with 5 or 0 
> 
> Multiples of 3 are only okay in real life, when i accidenly make it 4, so i have to correct it to 6 or 9 xD But i'll stop this weirdness now



That's definitely interesting.... you don't happen to associate a sort of personality/feeling with certain numbers do you? If you do... then you're beginning to sound like you've number personification/form synaesthesia. That's pretty cool.

----------


## littlezoe

> That's definitely an interesting.... you don't happen to associate a sort of personality/feeling with certain numbers do you? If you do... then you're beginning to sound like you've number personification/form synaesthesia. That's pretty cool.



Don't think so that it's related to synaesthesia, i'm sure that this is just because of my OCD.

5 and 0 are good because 5 is in the middle and 0 is the beginning/end. Anything between them is either off to the right or off to the left on the 0-10 list. Not sure if that makes sense to you... but those numbers annoy me.
But it's definitely interesting and i can't explain why is that when i interact with something, then 3 is the good number, otherwise it's 5 or 0.

Maybe i could create a thread for OCD... after all there is Carrot and me and there are others as well, we could talk about stuff like this there  :smiley: 

I don't want to clutter up Aly's thread with this, because this is a really useful thread ^^

----------


## Alyzarin

> Yeah i suppose... after all i don't know of anyone else from Hungary who is active on this forum, so i guess none of your could actually get some Negro anyway :/
> 
> But it bothers me somewhat that i just can't tell the dose -.-



Yeah, I understand. But....  ::whyme::  We can't tell the dose with peppermint tea either, so we might as well take what we can get.





> It's more complex than that >.>
> 
> When talking about invidual numbers and not related to something physical (like candy) then numbers like 5 and 0 are much much better. 3 and 6 would annoy me if that would be the goal for something 
> 
> 4 is not good either... i feel like it must end with 5 or 0 
> 
> Multiples of 3 are only okay in real life, when i accidenly make it 4, so i have to correct it to 6 or 9 xD But i'll stop this weirdness now



Sounds like some good old OCD to me.  :tongue2:  I agree with the 5 and 0, but aside from that I like even numbers... so 6 is okay, but 3 not so much. X) I guess in certain situations it can be nice, though. Pretty much opposite to you, if I ended something on 3 I would change it to 4, or from 9 to 10.... Odd numbers, ew. XD I haven't had to deal with it so much since I did a bunch of drugs (interestingly, psychedelics are known to attenuate OCD symptoms), but I used to be really anal about it, like having to divide foods in half if it was something from a pack and there was an odd number of things in it, or going back to walk up and down stairs or over tiled floors again if I ended on an odd number of steps. >.<

----------


## Wolfwood

Bloody 'ell, you've all got it.  :tongue2:

----------


## Alyzarin

You should join us, it's cozier here on the other side.  ::rolleyes:: 

(Ha, haha. Right.)

I still gets lots of symmetry stuff too, even though I'm not quite as bad as before. Thinking about it makes it worse. Like, if I'm feeling something on one side of my body, it feels bizarre if I'm not feeling it on the other side too.... While growing up (and still sometimes lately) for instance if I would accidentally ram my elbow into a wall or door, I would turn around and ram the other one as well.  ::roll:: 

Anyway, that's enough for here. You guys should get that thread made.  :tongue2:

----------


## Highlander

My GF came round tonight and I told her about that dream of her. She was a bit suprised at first, (said it was a bit randy, etc. etc.) and she didn't have any dreams this morning as her cat kept waking her up early. She isn't that enthusiastic about dreams, although I do tell her about ld, but I don't think she is convinced until she has one herself. Not that I'm trying to force my opinions on her, etc.
I did come out with that old one liner when she came in. "Sorry who are you, only I didn't recognise you with your clothes on!"
 :Shades wink:

----------


## Alyzarin

> My GF came round tonight and I told her about that dream of her. She was a bit suprised at first, (said it was a bit randy, etc. etc.) and she didn't have any dreams this morning as her cat kept waking her up early. She isn't that enthusiastic about dreams, although I do tell her about ld, but I don't think she is convinced until she has one herself. Not that I'm trying to force my opinions on her, etc.
> I did come out with that old one liner when she came in. "Sorry who are you, only I didn't recognise you with your clothes on!"



Nice.  ::chuckle:: 

I honestly don't get people who aren't interested in lucid dreaming lol. I mean... seriously, what about it sounds anything less than spectacular? X) Ah, well. To each his own (or her, in this case), I suppose.

----------


## whitedreams

i ate like prolly 16 to 20 9 mg cough drops through the course of the day and was wondering if to many could perhaps nutralize the effect

----------


## Alyzarin

> i ate like prolly 16 to 20 9 mg cough drops through the course of the day and was wondering if to many could perhaps nutralize the effect



It's possible, given we don't know that much about it yet... but I would imagine it would just make your dreams pretty crazy. Though normally we're dosing right before bed since it doesn't stay in the body for that long, that is a hefty dose. Wolfwood around that dose before and had a night completely filled with sex dreams.  :tongue2:

----------


## littlezoe

Wow, it worked again!  ::D:  Four in a row now =D This is awesome  ::D: 

*Dose:* 3 Negros (unknown dose)
*Side Effects:* Light Stomachache
*Sleep Duration:* Around 40 minutes after taking candy
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* Yes
*Vividness:* Usual
*Stability:* Worse than usual, the dream fell apart a lot
*Dream Comments:*

DJ Link: Mediterranean City, I'm Mean - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Seems like this is working really really good now!  ::D:  I'm so happy, because this is my 4th lucid this week ^^ 4 days with lucids is my record for a week so far, so hopefully i can break that record with a 5th one tomorrow  :smiley: 

I noticed that i'm more interested in talking with DCs and just going for the feelings during my latest lucids... even if not fully sexually, just sensually. Maybe that's because of the menthol, but i can't tell o.o

----------


## Mindraker

_I have to ask, is the menthol tablet something you enjoy eating?

Because when I started my dream recall exercises, I would take a little candy as a reward when I could remember a dream, and I didn't eat a candy when I couldn't remember anything.  This improved my dream recall.  The candies didn't have any menthol.  It was a simple "reward".  Perhaps you are rewarding yourself or giving your brain something to look forward to, saying, "Hey, brain, sleep is a good thing."_

----------


## Highlander

Sat July 14th 2012

*Dose:* 0.0 mg (***ZERO MENTHOL***)
*Side Effects:* Insomnia, bad stomach
*Sleep Duration:* 2.75 hrs after / 7.25 hrs total
*WBTB:* Yes 
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Hypnagogia, Anxiety dreams/Nightmare, reverie, general dream snippets.
(N.B: I did have trouble after the WBTB where I found that I couldn’t relax easy, that I was too ‘awake’ where I was thinking out ideas, etc.)

http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/robs...stwatch-35895/


Mindraker: In regard to the candy / reward possibility you put foward, then I would say definitely not in my case as I did not find it a 'reward' as such trying to suck or eat 3 or 4 of the cough drops in a short WBTB span. I.e: I found it a 'chore'. Sure there's a possibility of an LD reward, but not every time as you do have to put the work in, etc. plus I think I have had above average results IMO.
The one thing I did suggest is that there may be a sort of feedback loop going on with the mind, as well as the Menthol, as a sort of 'motivation' thingy whilst going on DV every day as well, sort of in 'tandem' with it, but I do find the Menthol helps me as I had one of my best LD's that I've had in a while.
Sure there's a possible co-incidence chance, only time can answer that one fully.

Regards.

----------


## Alyzarin

*Dose:* 3 York Peppermint Patties, 3.6 mg Hypericin (1200 mg St. John's Wort extract)
*Side Effects:* Insomnia and stomach problems leading to a very uncomfortable bathroom break, both of which I believe where mainly due to the St. John's wort
*Sleep Duration:* 7 or 8 hours after dosing, with a short break somewhere in the middle
*WBTB:* I suppose technically, with the bathroom break, but not as part of the dosing
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* High
*Stability:* High
*Dream Comments:* My guess is that most of the dream-boosting effects I got here were from the St. John's wort, but I did notice a menthol libido feeling again. However, the physiological effects were most unpleasant... I'll definitely be lowing my hypericin dose from now on, and probably not using it with menthol anymore. Since I think the menthol had a lesser effect on the dreams than the other supplement, I'll link to my DJ here but I'm not going to quote it.

DJ Entry - An Unfocused Night





> Wow, it worked again!  Four in a row now =D This is awesome 
> 
> *Dose:* 3 Negros (unknown dose)
> *Side Effects:* Light Stomachache
> *Sleep Duration:* Around 40 minutes after taking candy
> *WBTB:* Yes
> *Lucid:* Yes
> *Vividness:* Usual
> *Stability:* Worse than usual, the dream fell apart a lot
> ...



Alright!! You're doing pretty well so far.  :tongue2: 

I wonder if it is the menthol that's making you act that way, or if your lucid personality is just taking a new path?  ::rolleyes::  It definitely does make me want to branch out more to them, though, especially sensually, as you say... that "pure sex" feeling we were talking about way back in the thread.





> I have to ask, is the menthol tablet something you enjoy eating?
> 
> Because when I started my dream recall exercises, I would take a little candy as a reward when I could remember a dream, and I didn't eat a candy when I couldn't remember anything.  This improved my dream recall.  The candies didn't have any menthol.  It was a simple "reward".  Perhaps you are rewarding yourself or giving your brain something to look forward to, saying, "Hey, brain, sleep is a good thing."



That is a definite possibility, and even if the menthol alone _is_ providing something, that could still be enhancing it. (Not that there's anything wrong with that!) However, not everyone here who's had success enjoys dosing on menthol. In fact I've had my most success with the cough drops, which I stopped using because I couldn't take their nastiness.  ::?: 





> Sat July 14th 2012
> 
> *Dose:* 0.0 mg (***ZERO MENTHOL***)
> *Side Effects:* Insomnia, bad stomach
> *Sleep Duration:* 2.75 hrs after / 7.25 hrs total
> *WBTB:* Yes 
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* Typical
> *Stability:* Typical
> ...



A menthol-free night! So... any thoughts so far?  ::huh::  Obviously I know it's pretty early to say much, but I'm just wondering.

----------


## Highlander

> A menthol-free night! So... any thoughts so far?  Obviously I know it's pretty early to say much, but I'm just wondering.



I thought I would try and see if there were any differences. It is a touch early, however I might try another free one tomorrow morning in preperation for when I use the Peppermint tea next week?

I've put a question mark there because I'm not sure how many WBTB's you can do without taking a break, menthol aside, because the last two or three have been awful regarding sleep. 
Just lately I've been feeling absolutely cream crackered during the day, due to lack of, or broken sleep. That is probably why I'm getting quite a bit of HH when going to bed.  :Eek:

----------


## littlezoe

> Alright!! You're doing pretty well so far. 
> 
> I wonder if it is the menthol that's making you act that way, or if your lucid personality is just taking a new path?  It definitely does make me want to branch out more to them, though, especially sensually, as you say... that "pure sex" feeling we were talking about way back in the thread.



Maybe... You know what... tomorrow i'll try to do something non-sensual, some rampage or something just to see if i can xD

----------


## Xanous

OK So I don't have the time or patience to read all the posts but it looks like this is working. Right? Worth a try? What's the over all consensus so far? I have some peppermint oil. Would that do?

----------


## littlezoe

*Dose:* 3 Negros (unknown dose)
*Side Effects:* Nothing, not even stomachache, weird
*Sleep Duration:* Around 1 hour 40 minutes after taking candy
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Usual
*Stability:* Can't tell, wasn't lucid
*Dream Comments:*

Oh well... everything has to end once  :Sad:  I couldn't get lucid today for some reason... But i guess i know why... I had doubts when i went back to bed, while i said it for sure on the days before.. It also took almost 2 hours to fall asleep fully, because i forgot to lower the blinds and there was too much light...

I can only remember one regular dream from after the WBTB and that was long. Some people wanted to kill me and my family was threatened too... it was somewhat futuristic as well... it was like the people didn't have rights anymore... this weird kind of 'police' could order everyone.

----------


## Highlander

Sun July 15th 2012

*Dose:* 0.0 mg (***ZERO MENTHOL***)
*Side Effects:* Insomnia (milder), Stomach ache (slight)
*Sleep Duration:* 5 hrs / 7.75 hrs total 
*WBTB:* Yes 
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical 
*Dream Comments:*  Dream recall average. Lack of reverie and associated visuals. Experienced a really negative depressing dream.

The Neighbour and the depressing Father Christmas dream - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


Well tomorrow's the start of a new week. So I think I will crack open a box of Peppermint tea, and see how I fare on that?

----------


## Linkzelda

*Dose:* I was getting ready to suck on 29.4 mg of Halls Lemon Cough Drops (9.8 mg per tablet), but I had to spit it out when I realized I have to wake up early for groceries. x.x....So ZERO for me too.  ::damnit:: 

*Side Effects:* None

*Sleep Duration:* Before the failed WBTB, probably 4-6 hours, I lost track of time when I slept.

*WBTB:* No

*Lucid:* No

*Vividness:* I can't really scale this anymore lol

*Stability:* Meh, I don't know.

*Dream Comments:*  I actually had one dream that I could apply to waking life, which was to set my clock back one hour because I'm not in Canada's time zone anymore. The rest involved my subconscious preventing me to engage in sexual acts, and then the other one was just too random.

Alyzarin Grinds Me?, Giochemistry, Running on Track Field - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## dutchraptor

> OK So I don't have the time or patience to read all the posts but it looks like this is working. Right? Worth a try? What's the over all consensus so far? I have some peppermint oil. Would that do?



The menthol seems to be working 50/50 so far I think. On the other hand the peppermint tea seems to work fairly well, so peppermint oil would be extra suitable. The main increase I have noted is extended story lines, longer dreams and more sexual content.

----------


## melanieb

This seems to be one of the most successful research threads! Keep up the good work everyone!

 :smiley:

----------


## Xanous

> The menthol seems to be working 50/50 so far I think. On the other hand the peppermint tea seems to work fairly well, so peppermint oil would be extra suitable. The main increase I have noted is extended story lines, longer dreams and more sexual content.



Ah, very nice thanks. I actually had some cough drops and ate about 4. I had a very strange and vivid dream dream early in the night. Perhaps there is something to this. I think I may take some peppermint oil tonight.

----------


## littlezoe

I'm on track again, lol.

*Dose:* 3 Negros (unknown dose)
*Side Effects:* Nothing
*Sleep Duration:* Around 50 minutes after taking candy
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* Yes
*Vividness:* Worse than usual, it was really blurry mostly
*Stability:* Worse than usual, it wanted to collapse a lot
*Dream Comments:*

DJ Link: Terror, Unstable Dream Ends in Kisses - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

I had 2 lucids this day, the first in my entry is from earlier during the night, not affected by the menthol.

The second one... well.. it was really disappointing because of it's unstable and blurry nature... I still think that it's not related to the menthol that it was that bad, because some of my Negro Lucids were better quality...

So far to me it seems like the menthol helps me in being more aware, which is the most noticeable effect. It might also be related to the sexual/sensual themes.

----------


## Highlander

Mon July 16th 2012

*Dose:* 2 Cups (x1 Before bed, x1 at WBTB)
*Side Effects:* Generally ok (See comments)
*Sleep Duration:* 4.5 hrs / 8.5 hrs
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:*  Reverie and visuals. Average to good recall. Stomach more settled and relaxed. RC done. Erection due to a full bladder.

A Lawnmower. The spooky TV, plus more Reverie - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Alyzarin

I'm so happy this thread continues to progress even without me. >w< I spent the last couple days in a drunken-then-hungover fugue, so I haven't dosed again yet, but I may tonight. I had a lot of recall last night, but the dreams themselves were fairly regular (though not unexciting  ::rolleyes:: ). I'm looking forward to doing another test!

(Also, I wonder when those crystals are going to arrive....)





> OK So I don't have the time or patience to read all the posts but it looks like this is working. Right? Worth a try? What's the over all consensus so far? I have some peppermint oil. Would that do?



Yeah, as was said, it seems that the menthol cough drops have been varied for people so far, but the successful attempts seem to have fairly consistent results. Peppermint tea/oil is probably a better way to ensure success, with really the main downside being we don't actually know the exact dose of menthol. But, don't worry about that for now... just do what works best for you. And welcome to the experiment.  :smiley: 





> *Dose:* 3 Negros (unknown dose)
> *Side Effects:* Nothing, not even stomachache, weird
> *Sleep Duration:* Around 1 hour 40 minutes after taking candy
> *WBTB:* Yes
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* Usual
> *Stability:* Can't tell, wasn't lucid
> *Dream Comments:*
> 
> ...



Well, just remember that there's no such thing as a dream enhancer that works the way you want it to 100% of the time! Overall, I'd say you've still had some pretty good success with it so far.  :smiley:  Four in a row is better than I've done.





> Sun July 15th 2012
> 
> *Dose:* 0.0 mg (***ZERO MENTHOL***)
> *Side Effects:* Insomnia (milder), Stomach ache (slight)
> *Sleep Duration:* 5 hrs / 7.75 hrs total 
> *WBTB:* Yes 
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* Typical
> *Stability:* Typical 
> ...



I guess that's a good sign that the visuals and reverie went down. :O Definitely makes it seem like the menthol really is making a difference....





> I'm on track again, lol.
> 
> *Dose:* 3 Negros (unknown dose)
> *Side Effects:* Nothing
> *Sleep Duration:* Around 50 minutes after taking candy
> *WBTB:* Yes
> *Lucid:* Yes
> *Vividness:* Worse than usual, it was really blurry mostly
> *Stability:* Worse than usual, it wanted to collapse a lot
> ...



Alright, another lucid! I haven't read the entry yet, but I will soon, I'm juggling a few things right now. And so I guess that means you're still getting sensual effects.  :tongue2:  Who would've thought they'd appear this frequently....





> Mon July 16th 2012
> 
> *Dose:* 2 Cups (x1 Before bed, x1 at WBTB)
> *Side Effects:* Generally ok (See comments)
> *Sleep Duration:* 4.5 hrs / 8.5 hrs
> *WBTB:* Yes
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* Typical
> *Stability:* Typical
> ...



And they're back!  ::content::  I haven't read this one either yet, but I'll get to it and post there.  :smiley:

----------


## SpaceCowboyDave

I'm sorry I probably missed how much I should take to get possible results.  Unfochunatly the only thing I could find is these Ricola Cough drops that only have 3.5mg per drop.

----------


## dutchraptor

> I'm sorry I probably missed how much I should take to get possible results.  Unfochunatly the only thing I could find is these Ricola Cough drops that only have 3.5mg per drop.



It shouldn't make a huge difference. I usually drink tea with about 10g of mint leaves or so, seeing as mint only contains 0.25% menthol, I essentially only consume 25mg of menthol and 25g of menthone. So they should still be suitable.

----------


## Highlander

> I'm sorry I probably missed how much I should take to get possible results.  Unfochunatly the only thing I could find is these Ricola Cough drops that only have 3.5mg per drop.



I was mostly taking about 29.1 mg. However I did try 63.2 mg and 88.2 mg respectively. However the latter were the extra strong menthol drops.
I did get a bit of gastric wind off them and sleeplessness. You were only allowed 10 in any 24hrs also.
So in your case that would equate at quite alot of Ricolas!

----------


## Alyzarin

*Menthol's Aphrodisiac Qualities Explained?*
*And More Support for the Involvement of Phenethylamine in Dreams*

So, my latest research has brought me to some information which I find VERY interesting. All of these correlations of menthol with an increase in dreams with sexual themes, and that article about peppermint tea being used as an aphrodisiac in Greece, made me interested enough to look around and see if I could find an even better sex dream drug than menthol.  ::rolleyes::  At first I started looking more into prolactin-increasing drugs, as like I've said before I believe this is responsible for the sensual/"pure" side of the sex dreams, but I figured there had to be a more direct route to go about it than that. This eventually lead me back to an old interest of mine, yohimbine. Yohimbine has definite aphrodisiac qualities in people (though it can also cause anxiety, which would obviously limit how often those effects might show up in susceptible individuals), but just for the record, to anyone interested, it would make an absolutely atrocious dream drug, as it's a stimulant as well and even directly antagonizes D2 receptors (which blocks the formation of dreams). However, its sexual effects (and thankfully, not its anxiogenic effects) supposedly stem from its antagonism of alpha-2 adrenergic receptors.

The *alpha-2 adrenergic receptor* is a rather quirky little thing.... It has some seemingly paradoxical effects in the brain and body. Activation of it lowers levels of acetylcholine and catecholamines in the prefrontal cortex, but also causes vasoconstriction in the body and inhibits sexual function (especially erections). This is the exact opposite reaction that would normally be expected from those chemical changes, as vasoconstriction and inhibited function normally accompany the _release_ of dopamine (a major catecholamine), like with stimulants and psychedelics. However, when you think about the fact that dopamine is involved in sexual stimulation, and obviously sexual function is important for sex... it actually makes perfect sense that there's a mechanism like this in the brain. It would also explain why stress, which increases levels of norepinephrine and epinephrine (adrenaline) and activates those receptors, has a negative impact on sex and masturbation. Now, in addition to those functions, activating the receptors also inhibits REM sleep, another bizarre reaction as normally dopaminergic supplements or drugs inhibit REM as well. But again, this makes sense if you consider that stress also weakens dreams. So, as you may have guessed, antagonizing it creates paradoxical effects as well, only in the opposite way... it increases the release of dopamine in the PFC, it causes vasodilation and libido-increasing effects (again, especially erections) in the body, and it enhances REM sleep.

Now, how does this all fit together? Well, think about it.... When you're dreaming, the dopaminergic part of the prefrontal cortex is active in full swing, despite the fact that dopamine normally wakes you up due to its effects on the body. REM sleep is also correlated with increased libido and erections. Lastly, I really hope I don't have to explain the relation to the enhancement of REM phases.... The point is, it is _very_ likely that this blockade or low activity at alpha-2 adrenergic receptors is directly tied into REM sleep. But are you ready for the best part? Really? Do you think you can handle it? Alright, here it comes.... _Phenethylamine is an antagonist at alpha-2 adrenergic receptors!_ Yes, that's right! Not only can phenethylamine explain the generation of dream states, deactivation of the pineal gland, euphoria and lowered inhibition of lucid dreaming, and cessation of motor controls by activating D2 and TAAR1 receptors, but it can in fact even account for the increase in dopaminergic activity and heightened state of libido and correlation with erections that comes with REM sleep!! With all of this in mind, if my theory about kappa-opioid receptors releasing phenethylamine is true, then it means that menthol would be enhancing normal REM libido effects just like it enhances the formation of dreams in general, and it'd be doing it through the same mechanism as yohimbine, a certified aphrodisiac! In fact, I even went scanning through trip reports and posts about salvia use (since it works primarily through kappa-opioid receptors), because this rung a bell... and yes, salvia trips do in fact seem to have a high chance of causing erections. X) And believe me, if you know anything about salvia, you'll know that this is not because the trips are particularly fun or sexy... it's just a physical effect. But in a dream (or any non-horrifying state of mind, unlike salvia) this doesn't apply, and it can definitely make you hornier! And just FYI, I know I keep mentioning erections a lot, but that's just because they're pretty good way to raise a flag (heh) for this type of effect... it applies equally to women.

So what have we learned from all this? Well, assuming that I actually know what the hell I'm talking about... it means that, first of all, a centrally-selective or at least non-stimulant alpha-2 adrenergic receptor antagonist would probably make for an excellent sex dream drug, and second, that menthol may actually have a legitimate reason to have these aphrodisiac qualities through these effects. And believe me, I'm going to find a way to test this out for myself, because this discovery of a potential class of sex dream drugs is far too interesting for me to pass up.  :tongue2: 

That's all for now!  ::content::

----------


## littlezoe

I read through that, but didn't understand much other than that it has positive effects xD 

But i'm up for any testing  :tongue2:

----------


## Wolfwood

> I read through that, but didn't understand much other than that it has positive effects xD 
> 
> But i'm up for any testing



Basically, she's potentially found a chemical link between taking menthol and the increased sexual content in its following dreams.  ::D:

----------


## Highlander

A big box of Milk Tray chocolates and a MOI anyone?
 ::D:

----------


## Wolfwood

Aly, are we then to assume that whilst on menthol, that stress-related activation of the alpha-2 adrenergic receptor will be moderately controlled.... such that stress then won't have a large effect on dreams?

Also... without stress, would the alpha-2 adrenergic receptor be necessarily activated during sleep.... I mean so that an antagonist deactivating it is actually useful? It seems you're saying that it would have more effect at prolonging REM cycles, no?

----------


## Alyzarin

> I read through that, but didn't understand much other than that it has positive effects xD 
> 
> But i'm up for any testing



Hehe, nice to have some loyal experimenters.  ::rolleyes::  I'll definitely let you know if I figure out a good, easily-accessible research method, 'cause I'd like to be as sure about this as I possibly can.  :tongue2: 





> Aly, are we then to assume that whilst on menthol, that stress-related activation of the alpha-2 adrenergic receptor will be moderately controlled.... such that stress then won't have a large effect on dreams?
> 
> Also... without stress, would the alpha-2 adrenergic receptor be necessarily activated during sleep.... I mean so that an antagonist deactivating it is actually useful? It seems you're saying that it would have more effect at prolonging REM cycles, no?



Well, there are a good number of other adrenergic receptors that I'm less educated about which may or may not weaken sleep quality still (particularly the ones focusing more on the peripheral nervous system), but yes, it does mean that the effect of stress through this particularly mechanism would be lessened.  :smiley: 

Without stress, it's harder to say. Normally, levels of norepinephrine and epinephrine should be very low during sleep as it is, and so it may not have as huge of a REM-increasing effect. More than likely, the most useful place it would be was for situations like where you have heightened stress, or something else that's causing the receptors to have higher activity than normal. Though, I think they become more active with age, too. I remember reading that somewhere... so it's still possible that is has a REM-promoting effect even in stress-free situations. However, the REM boost I think is just a nice little added bonus, and not the core benefit of blocking these receptors. D2 activation already provides plenty of REM-promoting effects on its own.

----------


## Alyzarin

I guess I should say, the levels of norepinephrine and epinephrine should be very low compared to waking states... but not necessarily just in general. There is still a definite benefit in increasing the blockade of the receptors. And from all I've ever read, dreams supposedly activate the same receptors and everything as waking experiences, which means the REM-reducing effects of even dream-induced adrenaline rushes should be lessened as the doses increase.

----------


## Wolfwood

Hmm... seems menthol would have its use when awake throughout the day too. Would it also have an effect on libido then? If so, would be a good test for comparison.

And yeah, that means people waking up less from nightmares due to less effective adrenaline rushes? ^_^

----------


## Highlander

I've just made my first Mint tea cup (of many) for the night ahead.
Wish me luck, as you never know I might get my hands on another two cups! (...and the ones containing tea.) :Shades wink: 

Either that, or I'll end up p*ssing myself. Lol!  :Eek:

----------


## Alyzarin

> Hmm... seems menthol would have its use when awake throughout the day too. Would it also have an effect on libido then? If so, would be a good test for comparison.
> 
> And yeah, that means people waking up less from nightmares due to less effective adrenaline rushes? ^_^



Hahaha, yeah, most likely. I guess that's a good way to look at it for you.  :tongue2: 

It's possible that menthol would increase libido while awake at usable doses as well, but how much is questionable. The thing is, if my theory is correct, then the mechanism it's increasing in dreams is already being expressed strongly. (Or at least, more strongly than while awake.) In other words, the sexual effects may make themselves known from the additive effect, but alone might not be that strong without risking side effects, which are most likely caused through menthol's other properties and therefore wouldn't vary much between dreams and waking states. At the very least, though, I imagine it should still cause vasodilation... which would make it at least useful in the same way as Viagra.  ::chuckle::  Given that you've already taken some pretty large doses before, maybe you could just test it and let us know? XP But don't forget, too, that dynorphins are largely involved in the discriminative effects of THC; contrary to D2's more natural state in dreams, you may have to fight through some anxiety at necessary doses. It can certainly be done, and when you're able to ignore D2 anxiety those euphoric effects definitely do spring forth, but just cautioning you given your track record....





> I've just made my first Mint tea cup (of many) for the night ahead.
> Wish me luck, as you never know I might get my hands on another two cups! (...and the ones containing tea.)
> 
> Either that, or I'll end up p*ssing myself. Lol!



Nice.  ::lol::  Good luck!!  ::D:  I look forward to your results.  ::content::

----------


## Alyzarin

My mom just handed me a package we got in the mail. I haven't opened it yet.

Good god it smells like mint. XD

----------


## Wolfwood

> I imagine it should still cause vasodilation... which would make it at least useful in the same way as Viagra.  
> ...........maybe you could just test it and let us know? XP



lol. Just lol.

----------


## Wolfwood

> My mom just handed me a package we got in the mail. I haven't opened it yet.
> 
> Good god it smells like mint. XD



Right on time. You gonna test 'em tonight?

----------


## dutchraptor

All your posts are intresting Alyzarin, its like a documentary. If this all works you should publish it.  ::banana::

----------


## Highlander

> All your posts are intresting Alyzarin, its like a documentary. If this all works you should publish it.



Yes then send me a copy, paperback will do. I expect it signed with lots of kisses!  :Shades wink: 


(P.S: I could draw the cover for free?)

----------


## Xanous

> Yeah, as was said, it seems that the menthol cough drops have been varied for people so far, but the successful attempts seem to have fairly consistent results. Peppermint tea/oil is probably a better way to ensure success, with really the main downside being we don't actually know the exact dose of menthol. But, don't worry about that for now... just do what works best for you. And welcome to the experiment.



Thanks I don't know how long I will do this I am intrigued for now.  ::D:  It looks like everyone is following a certain format so I will try to keep it that way. I just measured the oil by teaspoon. I took the smallest measurement I could think of. Half of a 1/4 teaspoon. I took it like cough syrup and chased it with a little water.

*Dose:* 1/8 teaspoon peppermint oil   
*Side Effects:* Wakefulness - There may be other factors at play so I cannot say it was the peppermint oil.
*Sleep Duration:* undetermined
*WBTB:* Yes - Quick WILD
*Lucid:* Partial
*Vividness:* Varied
*Stability:* Low
*Dream Comments:* I was able to manage a Quick WILD or DEILD WILD but had strange emotions causing me to FA.

----------


## Alyzarin

Set for life.  :Shades wink: 





> Right on time. You gonna test 'em tonight?



If I can get a scale!  ::D:  I guess I need to go check the head shop now....





> All your posts are intresting Alyzarin, its like a documentary. If this all works you should publish it.



Aww, thank you!  ::content::  Well, I suppose I could use it as a reference one day if I eventually synthesize the ultimate dream drug based on this research.  ::rolleyes:: 





> Yes then send me a copy, paperback will do. I expect it signed with lots of kisses! 
> 
> 
> (P.S: I could draw the cover for free?)



Oh, you.  :Cheeky: 

Believe me, you're not even the only one in this thread who'd be fighting for that job.  ::chuckle::  But we could illustrate the entire thing! After all, who doesn't like endless pictures of dream experiences?  ::content:: 





> Thanks I don't know how long I will do this I am intrigued for now.  It looks like everyone is following a certain format so I will try to keep it that way. I just measured the oil by teaspoon. I took the smallest measurement I could think of. Half of a 1/4 teaspoon. I took it like cough syrup and chased it with a little water.
> 
> *Dose:* 1/8 teaspoon peppermint oil   
> *Side Effects:* Wakefulness - There may be other factors at play so I cannot say it was the peppermint oil.
> *Sleep Duration:* undetermined
> *WBTB:* Yes - Quick WILD
> *Lucid:* Partial
> *Vividness:* Varied
> *Stability:* Low
> *Dream Comments:* I was able to manage a Quick WILD or DEILD WILD but had strange emotions causing me to FA.



Yep, that's actually the format we set for the thread, so thanks!  :smiley:  Would you be able to go a little more in-depth with what kind of strange emotions you had?

----------


## Highlander

> Oh, you. 
> 
> Believe me, you're not even the only one in this thread who'd be fighting for that job.  But we could illustrate the entire thing! After all, who doesn't like endless pictures of dream experiences?



Oh well! Yeah I nominate Link to do the cover then, and maybe I could do the erotic ones instead.  ::D:

----------


## dutchraptor

I'll do some art too, cgi that is.

----------


## Xanous

> Yep, that's actually the format we set for the thread, so thanks!  Would you be able to go a little more in-depth with what kind of strange emotions you had?



Well the emotions are apart of the dream before. Guilt and a sense of evil. Like what I was doing was wrong. Fear. Non typical for me for during SP. The dream before was pretty negative. Frustration and guilt. Lots of confusion. It may just be me and not have anything to do with the menthol. If it continues I will know.

I am not sure what the Sleep Duration is for. I woke multiple times during the night and pretty restless. I was actually suffering from restless leg syndrome. I have that problem a lot already.

----------


## Wolfwood

Cool, I'll observe then. I'm well good at observing.

----------


## littlezoe

Success again!  ::D:  I'm starting to feel a bit bad for having so many lucids lately... but i should just be happy with them :s

*Dose:* 3 Negros (unknown dose)
*Side Effects:* Painful Stomachache, but i could get rid of it after a while, gladly
*Sleep Duration:* I think 1 hour or so after taking the candy
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* Yes
*Vividness:* Usual
*Stability:* Worse than usual
*Dream Comments:* 

DJ Link: Lucy, What's Wrong With You?! - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

The stomachache was more serious now than usually, but that's probably related to the fact that i ate too much yesterday and the candy just made it worse xD

I don't want to spoil the lucid, but there was a really weird part and a somewhat less weirder, but still weird part...

----------


## dutchraptor

That monster reminds me an awful lot of the turmgait from penumbra hmmm.... :SleepMeditate2:

----------


## littlezoe

> That monster reminds me an awful lot of the turmgait from penumbra hmmm....



But the tuurngait have upper parts  :tongue2:

----------


## dutchraptor

Ya but I mean with the whole love thing, it's such a paradox.

----------


## littlezoe

> Ya but I mean with the whole love thing, it's such a paradox.



Oh yeah, hah. I couldn't finish Penumbra because it was crashing on me at the snowy parts... so i didn't really know much about the tuurngait  :smiley:

----------


## Highlander

Finally, he shoots...he scores!

Tue July 17th 2012

*Dose:* 6 bags of Peppermint tea *(Staged)
*Side Effects:* Insomnia, Erection (Late night / Early Morning)
*Sleep Duration:* Approx 5 hrs / 2.5 hrs / 1.25 hrs after (Total = 8.75 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (Two periods)
*Lucid:* Yes (One)
*Vividness:* Average
*Stability:* Poor
*Dream Comments:* No early dreams recalled. Reverie and snippets throughout. Very poor / no sleep after first WBTB. Short lucid dream very late in morning after second WBTB. Stomach generally ok.
*( 10.00 pm x1, 11.55 pm x2, WBTB1 5.20 am x2 STRONG, WBTB2 8.30 am x1)

More Peppermint tea, reverie, snippets and a lucid a.e.t - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Chicken

Have been trying menthol for a few days and yesterday I had succes! After the first few attempts it seemed menthol was a NO dream enhancher because I hadn't remembered my dreams. Last night I had a 2 hour pre-sleep, was awake for 2,5 hours, took a menthol (11,8 mg) and went to sleep 45 minutes later. I felt different when I was falling asleep, lots of vivid visuals and stuff, I had a long DILD (first lucid after 2 months without any) and even had a succesfull DEILD (first time ever)
I'm very happy and will try it again tonight  :smiley:

----------


## Xanous

*Dose*: 1/8 teaspoon Peppermint Oil
*Side Effects*: Constipation.
*Sleep Duration*: 3.5 hours
*WBTB*: No
*Lucid*: No
*Vividness*: High
*Stability*: NA
*Dream Comments*: Since peppermint oil (2 night) I have been waking up in the first 3.5 to 4 hours with excellent recall of the dream I wake from. The dreams are not particularly abnormal for me. I will try a proper WBTB dose tonight at the times I have been waking initially.

----------


## Linkzelda

*Dose:* My last two tablets of Halls Lemon Cough Drops (9.8 mg each)
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* 2-3 hours (I took a nap around 2:50 PM or so, and woke up around 5 PM)
*WBTB:* No 
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* None
*Stability:* None
*Dream Comments:* I decided to take the last two cough drops I had. For a nap, I tried to actually take this thing seriously. I used an all-in-one countdown program called "Free Countdown Timer." I set a countdown for 15 minutes, then another to activate after 15 minutes. Then I had another one before those two that would alert me around 1 hour or so.

I set the alarm to where each would only loop once, and it's an alarm sound that I've grown accustomed to, the same one I used when I participated in OpheliaBlue's and f0rceez's classes. I've run out of sources of Menthol, but maybe I can drink some Peppermint Tea or something like a few others are doing in this thread.

BUT, I've noticed that I was extremely calm during the process of trying to sleep. I remembered a video I watched on how to conquer the Swallowing Reflex when trying to do a WILD after a WBTB or a nap (or for a WBTB combined any technique)


*Spoiler* for _Video Here_: 










Basically, if you don't want to watch the video (which is less than 2 minutes of your time), You get two or more pillow to prop your head and neck at an angle (like a tilted "L" leaning backwards), and then use a small pillow or any regular pillow to slide under your jaw, so that you wouldn't have to be conscious of keeping your jaw closed.

The cough drops relaxed both nasal pathways for me, and while I'm in the position to prevent the swallowing reflex from occurring, I just counted upwards, and continued to do so until I couldn't remember what number I was on. When that happened, I started from "1" again and went back up.

I heard the alarm trigger for the 15 minute mark, kept my eyes closed, remained calm, and continued to count. Same for the second 15 minute mark I set for the nap. As for the 1 hour one, I believe I heard it, but I slept again, which is why I woke up around 5PM later on.

I'll be doing this method during a WBTB, since I'm pretty sure this alarm isn't going to startle me anymore since I've been growing used to it for the CANWILD technique (the process of the technique rather than the concept behind it).

Anyway, good luck to those who are able to find Menthol sources, I hope I get get some in the near future.

What's funny is that whether or not I'm taking Menthol, I am dreaming of Alyzarin more, the recent dream journal entry I had for today was in fact a sexual one, though I didn't take any Halls Cough Drops before sleep or during a WBTB.

I guess it's just emotional factors and other things that caused the sexual one to occur.

Eh. Oh and also, I don't recall any dreams from the nap.  :Sad:

----------


## Chrisito

> alright, here's what i got for last night, from one cup of peppermint tea. Not too bad, if i do say so myself.  The lucid still had the same kind of ending as they have each time....
> 
> dj entry - pso2 just got even better, taking off my robe



*drinks 10 litres of peppermint tea* dayum!

----------


## Xanous

> I am dreaming of Alyzarin more, the recent dream journal entry I had for today was in fact a sexual one(



Really? You're just going to say that for all of us to read? LOL.  :Oh noes:

----------


## Linkzelda

> Really? You're just going to say that for all of us to read? LOL.



When she first liked one of my comments, I just knew it was love at first sight.  :Big laugh: 


















No, but really, it's going to show up on a DJ entry sooner or later, I'm not embarrassed or shy about it at all.  ::D:

----------


## LSDgarfield

> So that guy in your posts consumed a whole pack with each containing 8.6mg when he experienced mentally real nightmares. I'd guess a whole pack contains at least 7-8 sweets, which approximates to the amount I'll ingest.  
> 
> Demons beware.



Sorry for coming so late, but if you eat that much of menthol , you wont get nightmares, you will just be going to take a really really big crap

----------


## Chrisito

Yeah i will give this a crack tonight. Bought me some Vicks Vapo Drops today.
They have 10.? of menthol so im set i reckon.. 
will just try doing it at WBTB stage i think..

----------


## littlezoe

*Dose:* 3 Negros (unknown dose)
*Side Effects:* Nothing
*Sleep Duration:* 3 hours or so after taking candy
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Usual
*Stability:* Can't Tell
*Dream Comments:*

Well, i couldn't get a lucid tonight... shame, because i planned to fight Lucy... Well, there's always tomorrow ^^

I'm starting to think that Negro works this well because i'm always so hyped for the next lucid and i truly believe it that i'll have one. These all together help more than if i would just take the candy and wait for the wonders  ::D: 

But today i had some doubts... probably the reason why i didn't get one  :smiley:

----------


## dutchraptor

*Dose:* 30g Dutchraptor's lucidity potion (It should contain around 30mg of menthol and 30mg of menthone)
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* 9 hours
*WBTB:* Nope
*Lucid:* Nope
*Vividness:* Medium-high
*Stability:* Medium
*Dream Comments:* A very weird dream, but like always it had a heap of sexual content and ended with a satisfying twist in the story. Success I say.

----------


## Xanous

> When she first liked one of my comments, I just knew it was love at first sight. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its cool I was just a little shocked and had to tease. I think we all share a little too much in our DJs. LOL.

----------


## Highlander

Wed  July 18th 2012

*Dose:* x5 Menthol cough drops = 25-50 mg?, x2 bags of Peppermint tea *(Staged)
*Side Effects:* Light sleep, Stomach upset (Gastric)
*Sleep Duration:* 4.5 hrs/2.5 hrs/2 hrs after (Total = 9 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (Two periods)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Sexual. Very strong bursts of reverie, snippets and associated automatic visuals. Good recall noted. Slight headache and feeling dehydrated. Erection (due to full bladder?)
*( 12.00 am x1 drop, 4,15 am x1 drop, WBTB1 5.03 am x2 drop, x1 bag STRONG, WBTB2 8.00 am x1 drop, x1 bag)

Sexy snippets, Vintage Radios, and the Hearse next door - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Killing

Mmkay, hey everybody. I thought I'd play around a little as well, Littlezoe is responsible for this.

Last night I took two extra strong (5 on a scale of 1-5) Halls cough drops and had this vivid dream about a murderer following me around. Now, I got myself some more and..yeah, I'm gonna try and see what happens tonight. I think I'm gonna try with 3 or 4 pieces and if I'm not too lazy, then WBTB as well.
It doesn't say anything about mg's of menthol, but it definitely has some in it.

----------


## dutchraptor

This project certainly is popular  ::D:

----------


## Xanous

*Dose:* 1\8 teaspoon peppermint oil
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* woke from vivid dream after 30 min. Then slept another 3.5 hours
*WBTB:* Yes after 4 hours sleep
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Very High
*Stability:* Medium
*Dream Comments:* Definitively more vivid. Elements of inducing LD inside the dream. Very long and detailed dreams.

I may increase the dose and put a greater effort in to one of my induction techniques. I was shocked that I had such a vividly detailed dream within 30 min of WBTB dose.

----------


## Xanous

> This project certainly is popular



Because it works. Not necessarily a lucid aid but definitively a dream enhancer. I think I am close to finding what works for me. Tonight it will happen.  ::D:

----------


## littlezoe

> Because it works. Not necessarily a lucid aid but definitively a dream enhancer. I think I am close to finding what works for me. Tonight it will happen.



It's a lucid aid for me, lol. It doesn't even make my dreams more vivid =o

----------


## Chrisito

Dose: 2 x 10mg Menthol Vicks Vapodrops
Side Effects: My throat feels sore this morning (hahahaa gave me an opposite effect?)
Sleep Duration: 10.00pm - 3:10am Awake by alarm for 30 minutes and back to sleep 3:40Am -(5:30Am-6:00am?) (normal awakening) 
WBTB: Yes as above
Lucid: Yes
Vividness: Low
Stability: Low to Medium
Dream Comments: My recall is pretty crappy for this one i can remember more fragments than anything, i do remember becoming lucid and having to fight this guy shooting energy balls and charging them up in my hand which was awesome and also LOOKED awesome haven't been able to do that before. But realistically i don't think it was anything to do with the menthol. I always use Autosuggestion before bed and during my WBTB also, which i think may be the cause.
None the less i will try again tonight, maybe i will get that rebound effect from it being in my system and have the sexual dreams lol... *waits patiently*..
I've also been tiny bit stressed because my manager at work wants to put me on performance management but i try not let that effect my personal life. Gotta stay positive  :smiley:

----------


## Alyzarin

Wowza, this thread is doing great by itself. I'm so happy you guys are all so dedicated. :') I've been caught up in a lot of unplanned stuff for the last few days. >w< I'm gonna have to read through all these entries, for now I'm just going to respond to the posts!





> Success again!  I'm starting to feel a bit bad for having so many lucids lately... but i should just be happy with them :s
> 
> *Dose:* 3 Negros (unknown dose)
> *Side Effects:* Painful Stomachache, but i could get rid of it after a while, gladly
> *Sleep Duration:* I think 1 hour or so after taking the candy
> *WBTB:* Yes
> *Lucid:* Yes
> *Vividness:* Usual
> *Stability:* Worse than usual
> ...



You feel bad for having too many lucids?  ::chuckle::  Too much indulgence?  :tongue2:  But isn't isn't frequent inlimited power awesome?  ::D: 





> Have been trying menthol for a few days and yesterday I had succes! After the first few attempts it seemed menthol was a NO dream enhancher because I hadn't remembered my dreams. Last night I had a 2 hour pre-sleep, was awake for 2,5 hours, took a menthol (11,8 mg) and went to sleep 45 minutes later. I felt different when I was falling asleep, lots of vivid visuals and stuff, I had a long DILD (first lucid after 2 months without any) and even had a succesfull DEILD (first time ever)
> I'm very happy and will try it again tonight



Awesome! Welcome, and glad it's helped you so far.  ::content:: 





> *drinks 10 litres of peppermint tea* dayum!



That was a fun night.  ::rolleyes:: 





> *Dose:* 3 Negros (unknown dose)
> *Side Effects:* Nothing
> *Sleep Duration:* 3 hours or so after taking candy
> *WBTB:* Yes
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* Usual
> *Stability:* Can't Tell
> *Dream Comments:*
> 
> ...



A positive attitude will certainly help.  :smiley:  Just stop doubting that it'll work!  :tongue2: 





> *Dose:* 30g Dutchraptor's lucidity potion (It should contain around 30mg of menthol and 30mg of menthone)
> *Side Effects:* None
> *Sleep Duration:* 9 hours
> *WBTB:* Nope
> *Lucid:* Nope
> *Vividness:* Medium-high
> *Stability:* Medium
> *Dream Comments:* A very weird dream, but like always it had a heap of sexual content and ended with a satisfying twist in the story. Success I say.



I love it when sexual dreams are reported, it makes me excited to sleep every time. X)





> Wed  July 18th 2012
> 
> *Dose:* x5 Menthol cough drops = 25-50 mg?, x2 bags of Peppermint tea *(Staged)
> *Side Effects:* Light sleep, Stomach upset (Gastric)
> *Sleep Duration:* 4.5 hrs/2.5 hrs/2 hrs after (Total = 9 hrs)
> *WBTB:* Yes (Two periods)
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* Typical
> *Stability:* Typical
> ...



Sounds like a good night!  ::biggrin::  You keep mentioning the erections... have you ever considered that it might be because of the vasodilation that I mentioned before? It's possible that how hard you get could be a sign of how well the menthol's working.  ::lol:: 





> Mmkay, hey everybody. I thought I'd play around a little as well, Littlezoe is responsible for this.
> 
> Last night I took two extra strong (5 on a scale of 1-5) Halls cough drops and had this vivid dream about a murderer following me around. Now, I got myself some more and..yeah, I'm gonna try and see what happens tonight. I think I'm gonna try with 3 or 4 pieces and if I'm not too lazy, then WBTB as well.
> It doesn't say anything about mg's of menthol, but it definitely has some in it.



Hey Cookieh!  ::content::  That dream sounds intense! :O I'm looking forward to hearing what else you have to report!  :smiley: 





> This project certainly is popular



I know, isn't it wonderful? >w<





> *Dose:* 1\8 teaspoon peppermint oil
> *Side Effects:* None
> *Sleep Duration:* woke from vivid dream after 30 min. Then slept another 3.5 hours
> *WBTB:* Yes after 4 hours sleep
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* Very High
> *Stability:* Medium
> *Dream Comments:* Definitively more vivid. Elements of inducing LD inside the dream. Very long and detailed dreams.
> 
> I may increase the dose and put a greater effort in to one of my induction techniques. I was shocked that I had such a vividly detailed dream within 30 min of WBTB dose.



I'm glad you got something out of it!  ::content::  Hopefully the trend will continue!





> Dose: 2 x 10mg Menthol Vicks Vapodrops
> Side Effects: My throat feels sore this morning (hahahaa gave me an opposite effect?)
> Sleep Duration: 10.00pm - 3:10am Awake by alarm for 30 minutes and back to sleep 3:40Am -(5:30Am-6:00am?) (normal awakening) 
> WBTB: Yes as above
> Lucid: Yes
> Vividness: Low
> Stability: Low to Medium
> Dream Comments: My recall is pretty crappy for this one i can remember more fragments than anything, i do remember becoming lucid and having to fight this guy shooting energy balls and charging them up in my hand which was awesome and also LOOKED awesome haven't been able to do that before. But realistically i don't think it was anything to do with the menthol. I always use Autosuggestion before bed and during my WBTB also, which i think may be the cause.
> None the less i will try again tonight, maybe i will get that rebound effect from it being in my system and have the sexual dreams lol... *waits patiently*..
> I've also been tiny bit stressed because my manager at work wants to put me on performance management but i try not let that effect my personal life. Gotta stay positive



I await your further results.  ::content::  At least you had a lucid even if the dream didn't seem too menthol-enhanced, it's a good away to start off the experiment!  :tongue2:

----------


## littlezoe

> You feel bad for having too many lucids?  Too much indulgence?  But isn't isn't frequent inlimited power awesome?



I think i feel that way because the others in this thread didn't get so many lucids since the tests started... and they might think that i'm lying or something... But after all i shouldn't care about that, lol.

As for today... my doubts were still there... no lucid  :Sad:  The details are the same as yesterday, so i didn't bother to fill the template for today.

I only have 3 Negros left now, but i asked my mom to buy another pack today, so hopefully i can continue  :smiley: 

I need to get back into that hyped state i was in before... i want more lucids this week :/

----------


## Highlander

> Sounds like a good night!  You keep mentioning the erections... have you ever considered that it might be because of the vasodilation that I mentioned before? It's possible that how hard you get could be a sign of how well the menthol's working.



Possibly, as I was using the Peppermint tea at the time. This might account for the one or two after late at night/mid morning?
A 'full bladder' did cause one, which made me quite randy!  ::D: 
However erections and dreams (physiologically) do go hand in hand (a bad pun there, not intentional!) which explains the well known 'morning glory' effect. 







> I think i feel that way because the others in this thread didn't get so many lucids since the tests started... and they might think that i'm lying or something... But after all i shouldn't care about that, lol.



No. My Ld rate INCREASED on the first week of the experiment!!!  ::rolleyes:: 

This is an experiment - not TOTM!

If anybody lies then all they are doing is kidding themselves.

----------


## littlezoe

> No. My Ld rate INCREASED on the first week of the experiment!!! 
> 
> This is an experiment - not TOTM!
> 
> If anybody lies then all they are doing is kidding themselves.



Yeah, i just tend to care more about what people think about me than i should  :smiley:

----------


## Highlander

> Yeah, i just tend to care more about what people think about me than i should



No, your results speak for themselves. You should be proud of what you have done so far. We are all trying to help each other here, which is a good thing. A 'win win' situation.

My LD rate has dropped this week, but I know it will come back. However the main thing is I have learn't more about how my body and mind works. Everything takes time. LD are a bit of an enigma most times.

Regards. :smiley:

----------


## Alyzarin

*Dose:* 2 York Peppermint Patties
*Side Effects:* Maybe some insomnia (expected, though) and a mildly upset stomach upon waking
*Sleep Duration:* ~3.25 hours after dosing
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* High
*Stability:* High
*Dream Comments:* Given the fact that my recall the last few days has been poor from partying, these dreams were actually extremely vivid, so that's cool. The second one also had a lot of really interesting, trippy visual stuff... it was pretty neat. Not to mention the sexual themes returned, as well as the libido feeling at the end and upon waking. :3 I also got hypnagogia reaaaally easily... should've tried a WILD. >w<

DJ Entry - Too Distracted, Broken Structures





> Supplement Dose: 2 York Peppermint Patties
> 
> *#1 - Too Distracted* [Non-Lucid]
> 
> The main thing I remember about this dream is that my dad accidentally chopped off his fingertip.  (Though there was no blood throughout the entire dream.... Definitely didn't notice that until I woke up.) I ran all around the house looking for band-aids for him so we could graft it back on.  But strangely, almost all of the lights in the house were off, and I tried four or five switches in a row and they _wouldn't_ work! How odd! () Getting frustrated, I ran back out to the kitchen where the light was already on so we could see what we were doing. During all of this, including before my dad had injured himself, I was also trying to hide bunch of OxyContin that R had left on the living room table, easily at least if not more than a hundred pills. I ended up shoving most of them into a Ziploc bag and stashing it in a drawer in my room before I could be noticed though, but honestly I don't think my dad would have really noticed at the time.  Not long after we got to the kitchen, I woke up.
> 
> After this dream, until I finally got out of bed, I was getting very vivid hypnagogia very easily, just accompanying all of my random in-bed thoughts. One that I remember clearly is walking down a random street considering that previous dream, half knowing that I was really in bed but not really caring. I never sank into a WILD or anything because of them, though. I also remember something about Dexter's Laboratory... which I only remember right this second while typing it, and have no idea what it was connected to. 
> 
> *#2 - Broken Structures* [Non-Lucid]
> ...



----------





> I think i feel that way because the others in this thread didn't get so many lucids since the tests started... and they might think that i'm lying or something... But after all i shouldn't care about that, lol.
> 
> As for today... my doubts were still there... no lucid  The details are the same as yesterday, so i didn't bother to fill the template for today.
> 
> I only have 3 Negros left now, but i asked my mom to buy another pack today, so hopefully i can continue 
> 
> I need to get back into that hyped state i was in before... i want more lucids this week :/



I have to agree with RobStar, and I don't think anyone doubts you. We're all just trying to get the most success we can out of this right now, so just worry about yourself for now. We'll get it all figured out in the end.  :smiley: 

So as far as motivation goes.... You seem to be in a situation where you know you'll get lucid as long as you believe you will. How can anything be more motivational than that?  ::chuckle:: 





> Possibly, as I was using the Peppermint tea at the time. This might account for the one or two after late at night/mid morning?
> A 'full bladder' did cause one, which made me quite randy! 
> However erections and dreams (physiologically) do go hand in hand (a bad pun there, not intentional!) which explains the well known 'morning glory' effect.



I know, that's what I was referring to.  :Cheeky:  If I'm right about menthol, it may actually be increasing the mechanism by which erections correlate to REM sleep, which means that the more it works, the more likely it is you'd wake up with one. I certainly wake up horny every single time I use it.  ::rolleyes::

----------


## Highlander

Thur  July 19th 2012

*Dose:* x2 Menthol cough drops = 10-20 mg?, x1 cup (0.5pt) Apple Juice, Breakfast cereal with milk (Containing 0.6 to 1.0 mg B6)
*Side Effects:* Bad Stomach (Gastric, etc)
*Sleep Duration:* approx 5 hrs/3.25 hrs after (Total = 8.25 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (55 min)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Sexual and sensual (see food) with a (underlying) memorable theme in one very long big multi-faceted dream. A deeper sleep noted. (N.B: I had to take 500mg soluble Paracetamol (11.15pm) along with previous doses yesterday due to having a bad migraine type headache all day.)

Richard Branson and Art. The Gallery. Food and the Talc episode - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Killing

*Dose:* 4 drops of Halls Extra Strong (they say it has 19,7mg of menthol and 9,8mg of eucalyptus oil per piece o__o)
*Side Effects:* Durr..none?
*Sleep Duration:* 9 hours.
*WBTB:* Nein.
*Lucid:* Nope.
*Vividness:* Quite high.
*Stability:* Normal.
*Dream Comments:* It's just a fragment. I don't think I had any scary dreams..Recall is being a bitch.

There must've been some epic dream I've forgotten. That was a huge dose..

Also got some Lockets Honey & Lemon, but it's pretty weak, menthol 9,7mg and eucalyptus 9,2mg. It has a much more enjoyable taste, though.

*shudders at the strong menthol taste*

----------


## littlezoe

9,7mg menthol is not weak at all  :smiley:  Considering that most have way under that. I'm also sure that the Extra Strong Halls is only near 12mg, because someone posted it's dose in this thread earlier.

----------


## Xanous

Has anyone considered to possibility of a placebo effect here? As in the case of littlezoe, It sees when she doubts herself she does not get lucid. Just a thought I hope I'm wrong. With that said I am going to continue with the experiment (experiments are fun). From what I seem I definitely get more vivid dreams, not quite lucid yet though. 

Also, I have not noticed any difference in arousal at night. Seems normal but healthy there. I think with most of you is has to do with your age and or relationship status. I get the feeling most of you are a lot younger than I. 


*Dose:* 1/8 teaspoon peppermint oil with a cup of cold tea
*Side Effects:* None - perhaps mild constipation
*Sleep Duration:* woke after 2 hr 44 min of dose
*WBTB:*Yes
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:*Mild
*Stability:*Good
*Dream Comments:*Long epic dream. Tried MILD but only continued the dream non-lucid.

----------


## Killing

Hmph. Either way, the taste pretty strong. Makes me shudder.

Would suck if this whole menthol thing was a placebo >.>

----------


## Highlander

> Has anyone considered to possibility of a placebo effect here? As in the case of littlezoe, It sees when she doubts herself she does not get lucid. Just a thought I hope I'm wrong. With that said I am going to continue with the experiment (experiments are fun). From what I seem I definitely get more vivid dreams, not quite lucid yet though.



Yes, sure like with a lot of things there is always a chance of a placebo effect. However with me then I have noticed an increase in visuals, etc. My body does get tired of the constant wbtb I impose, for example I got the mother of all headaches yesterday which slowed me right down. 
It all boils down to the individual, and what works for them. I find AJ helps me, but like with anything the keyword is 'helps' as nothing is guaranteed, etc.





> Also, I have not noticed any difference in arousal at night. Seems normal but healthy there. I think with most of you is has to do with your age and or relationship status. I get the feeling most of you are a lot younger than I.



In answer to your last question. Yes I'm in a relationship so I probably let a bit of steam off in that respect if you know what I mean. In regard to age, well as my title above my avatar will give you a clue.
Remember you are only as old as you feel. Age doesn't come into it when dreaming. It is no barrier.  ::rolleyes::

----------


## littlezoe

> Has anyone considered to possibility of a placebo effect here? As in the case of littlezoe, It sees when she doubts herself she does not get lucid. Just a thought I hope I'm wrong. With that said I am going to continue with the experiment (experiments are fun). From what I seem I definitely get more vivid dreams, not quite lucid yet though.



I had thoughts about that before. I can see the possibility after these experiences that my lucids stop when i start doubting it  :Sad: 

My dreams are also not more vivid because of the menthol.... maybe you get what you focus on? I focused on getting lucids and believed that it brings them and it did. Others wanted the vivid effect... you know what i mean... 

But i hope this is a wrong theory.

----------


## Xanous

> Yes, sure like with a lot of things there is always a chance of a placebo effect. However with me then I have noticed an increase in visuals, etc. My body does get tired of the constant wbtb I impose, for example I got the mother of all headaches yesterday which slowed me right down. 
> It all boils down to the individual, and what works for them. I find AJ helps me, but like with anything the keyword is 'helps' as nothing is guaranteed, etc.



Yes the constant WBTB is making me more tired especially during the week. I know I should take a break but I am afraid I will miss out. LOL. And yes I agree we are all different and nothing is guaranteed.





> In answer to your last question. Yes I'm in a relationship so I probably let a bit of steam off in that respect if you know what I mean. In regard to age, well as my title above my avatar will give you a clue.
> Remember you are only as old as you feel. Age doesn't come into it when dreaming. It is no barrier.



LOL yes I noticed you were probably older than even myself, 32. I was thinking more of when I was a horny teenager. heehe.





> I had thoughts about that before. I can see the possibility after these experiences that my lucids stop when i start doubting it 
> My dreams are also not more vivid because of the menthol.... maybe you get what you focus on? I focused on getting lucids and believed that it brings them and it did. Others wanted the vivid effect... you know what i mean... 
> 
> But i hope this is a wrong theory.



Yeah I see your point. Perhaps you are right. Its hard to tell with any lucid aid. But if it works then who care about placebo. What matters is if it works. But then again all this would be unnecessary if it was in fact a placebo. Either way the cost and effort is minimal as long as we don't over do it. Perhaps a break will be needed at some point? I notice that a lot of us are having stomach issues and I wonder if eating candy just before bed will damage teeth. Thats why I prefer the oil.

----------


## littlezoe

> Yeah I see your point. Perhaps you are right. Its hard to tell with any lucid aid. But if it works then who care about placebo. What matters is if it works. But then again all this would be unnecessary if it was in fact a placebo. Either way the cost and effort is minimal as long as we don't over do it. Perhaps a break will be needed at some point? I notice that a lot of us are having stomach issues and I wonder if eating candy just before bed will damage teeth. Thats why I prefer the oil.



True, but there is the thing that when you stop believing in it, it won't work anymore... The wrath of placebo. 

I feel like this is what happens to me right now.... but i try to reform this belief.

As for candy maybe damaging teeth... i never cared about that and ate a lot of candy, but i don't have a single tooth with a hole or anything like that  :tongue2:  They are all fine, so i don't worry.

----------


## Highlander

> True, but there is the thing that when you stop believing in it, it won't work anymore... The wrath of placebo. 
> 
> I feel like this is what happens to me right now.... but i try to reform this belief.
> 
> As for candy maybe damaging teeth... i never cared about that and ate a lot of candy, but i don't have a single tooth with a hole or anything like that  They are all fine, so i don't worry.



I still don't think it's placebo due to the fact of having increased visuals, better recall, longer dreams with storylines. It may be that our bodies get used to the routines we impose or the chemical itself over time?


 ::bowdown::   ::bowdown::   ::bowdown::  *MENTHOL*  ::bowdown::   ::bowdown::   ::bowdown::  


I believe!

----------


## Xanous

> I still don't think it's placebo due to the fact of having increased visuals, better recall, longer dreams with storylines. It may be that our bodies get used to the routines we impose or the chemical itself over time?
> 
> 
>    *MENTHOL*    
> 
> 
> I believe!



I you probably hit the nail on the head with that one.


and that picture is freaking hilarious! I want to steal it! LOL!

----------


## littlezoe

> I still don't think it's placebo due to the fact of having *increased visuals, better recall, longer dreams with storylines*. It may be that our bodies get used to the routines we impose or the chemical itself over time?



I don't have increased visuals or better recall. I have long dreams with storylines often without menthol, so i don't see a difference in that. So it's worrying me. 

But still, i try to believe  :tongue2: 


As for today, i used up my last 3 Negros, because my mom couldn't buy another pack... I didn't get lucid... The details were the same as before, so no need to use the template.
I think i'll report back on how my dreaming goes without menthol in the next few days, because i basically took it almost every single day since a while now.

----------


## Highlander

Fri July 20th 2012

*Dose:* x1 Peppermint tea, x4 Menthol cough drops = 20-40 mg?,  x1 cup (0.25pt) Apple Juice and Water.*(Staged) 
*Side Effects:* Very light sleep
*Sleep Duration:* 5 hrs/ 2.5 hrs after (Total = 7.5 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (62 min) 15 min exercise
*Lucid:* YES
*Vividness:* Average
*Stability:* Average
*Dream Comments:* No early dreams reported. Odd (sexy) snippet. Some reverie and visuals. Libido higher. Dream incubation, (unintended.) A ‘floating’ (OBEish like) pleasant sensation during lucid dream with accompanied ‘wave’ of energy. 
Note: I increased my levels of dopamine? Possibly in two ways; the one via physical exercise, the other via a FAP.
The exercise I found helped me reduce the gastric issues I have with the Menthol drops. 
*( 11.40 pm x1 cup, 11.50 pm x1 drop, 2.03 am x1 drop, WBTB x2 drops)

CD tunes, lyrics. My living room and floating about in the dark - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Xanous

*Dose:* *1/4* teaspoon peppermint oil
*Side Effects:* mild constipation
*Sleep Duration:* unknown
*WBTB:*Yes
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:*Low
*Stability:*Low
*Dream Comments:*I had really low recall lastnight. I only got fragments in my DJ. Also I dont know if it has been since the menthol (I will have to look) or if it is just some sick obsession but I have consistently been dreaming of *shit* and/or *bathrooms*. WTF? I now try to RC when I go to a bathroom.

I am considering taking a break. I wonder if menthol only helps for a period and the tapers off? Has anyone else felt this way?

----------


## Killing

*Dose:* 3 Lockets (9,7mg/piece) and 3 Halls (12mg/piece..?) = 65,1mg 
*Side Effects:* Nothing?
*Sleep Duration:* ~11 hours
*WBTB:* Nu'uh
*Lucid:* Nope.
*Vividness:* High
*Stability:* Quite high
*Dream Comments:* I'm having a lot of music-related dreams lately. Maybe menthol could be used to incubate dreams more effectively? D:

----------


## Alyzarin

Hey guys, sorry I haven't been around so much lately but it's been a really busy few days, and I'm about to be housesitting for someone without a computer until Sunday morning, so I'm going to be able to get on even less. :T Keep up the good work, though! I love all the progress, and I'll try to keep dosing myself.  :smiley:  Sorry this response is kind of short, I'm actually in a hurry right now as well. I'll touch base a bit more when I have more time.

As for the placebo debate, come on guys, we've been over this a few times now. >w< Just keep doing what you're doing for now, and if it works, then it works. Eventually we'll have enough data to know whether or not it's legit, but from what I've seen so far, I'd say it has definite effects, and more than likely the people who haven't gotten any yet either just don't respond strongly to it or haven't found the right dose yet. Tolerances will vary, especially for a chemical which is already added to so many things we ingest, and not every dream enhancer works for everyone. I can say with a good amount of certainty that it works for me, as it's changed the feel of my dreams in the exact same way every time I've taken it, and it's not just a "general dream enhancement" feeling. I've experimented before with melatonin, 5-HTP, choline, piracetam, aniracetam, vitamin B6, galantamine, diphenhydramine, Calea zacatechichi, mugwort, damiana, St. John's wort, Salvia divinorum, Amanita muscaria, and valerian root, and probably a few more that just aren't coming to mind right now, so I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about.

A couple things I couldn't help responding to more directly:





> Also I dont know if it has been since the menthol (I will have to look) or if it is just some sick obsession but I have consistently been dreaming of *shit* and/or *bathrooms*. WTF? I now try to RC when I go to a bathroom.
> 
> I am considering taking a break. I wonder if menthol only helps for a period and the tapers off? Has anyone else felt this way?



Maybe your brain is just incorporating the stomach side effects into your dreams?  ::lol:: 

And it will likely build tolerance... which everyone responds differently to. If you think it's working less than before, definitely take a break.





> I'm having a lot of music-related dreams lately. Maybe menthol could be used to incubate dreams more effectively? D:



I actually wouldn't doubt this, as it makes my visualization skyrocket. Maybe you should do some tests.  ::rolleyes:: 

Sorry I couldn't say more, I really need to head out now. See you guys in a while!  ::content::

----------


## Xanous

> As for the placebo debate, come on guys, we've been over this a few times now. 
> A couple things I couldn't help responding to more directly:



Ok that's my fault. Like I said, I haven't taken the time to read all the posts. So, sorry about that.  ::D: 





> Maybe your brain is just incorporating the stomach side effects into your dreams? 
> And it will likely build tolerance... which everyone responds differently to. If you think it's working less than before, definitely take a break.



I thought maybe the same thing but I have always had crazy bathroom dreams just not so frequent. So, who knows. It IS a strong dreamsign right however and I will run with it if I get the mind to.

Also, I agree with tolerance. I will take a break tonight and maybe the next day or two try and different form of menthol. I bought some peppermint tea and 10g menthol cough drops today. I plan to give those a shot later.

Although I keep seeing Sageous' words in my mind about all this and I agree with him for the most part. So, I am feeling a bit conflicted right now. 





> In time I realized that it wasnt the stuff that made even the weakest LDs tick; it was careful attention to the fundamentals.



Am I playing Devil's Advocate? Nope. I just want to be reasonable and consider everything. So, don't any of you let me influence what you are doing here. I think menthol is a good thing just not THE answer. Still, I'll play along because I do like experiments.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Ok that's my fault. Like I said, I haven't taken the time to read all the posts. So, sorry about that.



Don't worry about it, I'm sure someone else will bring it up soon enough.  ::chuckle:: 





> Although I keep seeing Sageous' words in my mind about all this and I agree with him for the most part. So, I am feeling a bit conflicted right now. 
> 
> Am I playing Devil's Advocate? Nope. I just want to be reasonable and consider everything. So, don't any of you let me influence what you are doing here. I think menthol is a good thing just not THE answer. Still, I'll play along because I do like experiments.



Actually, I prefer my dreams unenhanced. Menthol is definitely not _the_ answer, it's not even my favorite dream aid (yet  ::rolleyes:: ). I treat dream enhancers and lucid aids like I treat drugs: for fun and experimentation, not as a replacement for regular techniques. Even with aids, you should definitely still be practicing the fundamentals. The thing is, I can already get lucid pretty frequently when I put my mind to it; I used to get lucid twice a night several nights a week. The reason for my exploration is not so much to attain lucidity but to see the specific ways in which these substances alter my dreams. That's why I'm glad that people are becoming lucid from menthol, but I'm personally much more excited about the sexual effects.  :tongue2:

----------


## Xanous

Yeah I can see your reasoning there.  ::D:

----------


## Xanous

Oh and I had another poop dream without the menthol. So that wasn't it. LOL! I even thought to quesiton if I was dreaming but I didn't follow through.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Oh and I had another poop dream without the menthol. So that wasn't it. LOL! I even thought to quesiton if I was dreaming but I didn't follow through.



Aw man, so close. X) I wonder what the cause of it is?  ::lol::

----------


## Highlander

Sat July 21st 2012

*Dose:* x2 Menthol cough drops = 10-20 mg?, x2 cups (0.75 pt total) Apple Juice.*(Staged)
*Side Effects:* Deeper sleep, Erection
*Sleep Duration:* 4.5 - 5 hrs/3 hrs after (Total = 7.5 – 8 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (40 min) 15 min (physical) exercise
*Lucid:* YES (Part)
*Vividness:* Typical (Tactile) 
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* No early dreams reported. Odd bit of reverie post WBTB. A highly sexual dream where I was lucid at one point. An intense, memorable experience. Tactile. Libido increase!!!
*(11.33 pm 0.5 pt AJ, WBTB x2 drops, 0.25 pt AJ)

A Seduction (Sex) Dream – Part lucid - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Xanous

> Aw man, so close. X) I wonder what the cause of it is?







> Apparently there are a lot of people who, after dreaming of poop have come into a large sum of money or won the lottery...
> So whenever you mention having a dream of feces in my family you'll usually be told to go play the lottery.



Solved! That's four nights in a row. I'm buying a lotto ticket!

Giddity, giddity, goo. Aaaaaalllright!

----------


## littlezoe

^ Or maybe you just have a fetish o.o


July 21st and 22nd:

*Dose:*  None
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* 9 to 10 hours
*WBTB:* Yes once, but didn't help
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Usual
*Stability:* Usual
*Dream Comments:* 

Well, two days now without menthol... i had some interesting dreams, but they weren't tooo weird to blame it on the menthol. I also had no lucids, because i'm stressed about them a bit now  :Sad:

----------


## Highlander

Sun July 21st 2012

*Dose:* x2 Menthol (H & Lem) cough drops = 19.4 mg, x1 cups (>0.5 pt) Apple Juice
*Side Effects:* Deeper sleep (initially), Erection
*Sleep Duration:* 5 hrs/2.75 hrs after (Total = 7.75 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (36 min) 15 min (physical) exercise
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Average recall. General snippets and short dreams throughout. A light sleep later on. Sexual dream. Libido increase.


Prince Charles (dead). The GF, in bed, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## dutchraptor

> That's why I'm glad that people are becoming lucid from menthol, but I'm personally much more excited about the sexual effects.



Yes I agree, I can Deild whenever I want so I never feel that the menthol has much effect on my lucid dreaming, I'm more about seeing the effects on non-lucids for me, experienceing the increased logical and sexual parts to my dream.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Sat July 21st 2012
> 
> *Dose:* x2 Menthol cough drops = 10-20 mg?, x2 cups (0.75 pt total) Apple Juice.*(Staged)
> *Side Effects:* Deeper sleep, Erection
> *Sleep Duration:* 4.5 - 5 hrs/3 hrs after (Total = 7.5  8 hrs)
> *WBTB:* Yes (40 min) 15 min (physical) exercise
> *Lucid:* YES (Part)
> *Vividness:* Typical (Tactile) 
> *Stability:* Typical
> ...



Good to see that the sexual effects are still going strong. X) That one sounded intense.  :armflap: 





> July 21st and 22nd:
> 
> *Dose:*  None
> *Side Effects:* None
> *Sleep Duration:* 9 to 10 hours
> *WBTB:* Yes once, but didn't help
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* Usual
> *Stability:* Usual
> ...



Hmm... so have you noticed any lack of themes now that you're not taking it? Like, now that you have normal dreams to compare it to again, can you tell if the menthol was really adding much?  ::huh:: 





> Sun July 21st 2012
> 
> *Dose:* x2 Menthol (H & Lem) cough drops = 19.4 mg, x1 cups (>0.5 pt) Apple Juice
> *Side Effects:* Deeper sleep (initially), Erection
> *Sleep Duration:* 5 hrs/2.75 hrs after (Total = 7.75 hrs)
> *WBTB:* Yes (36 min) 15 min (physical) exercise
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* Typical
> *Stability:* Typical
> ...



And here they are again.  ::chuckle::  I'm glad you can get them so consistently, it gives me hope.  :tongue2: 





> Yes I agree, I can Deild whenever I want so I never feel that the menthol has much effect on my lucid dreaming, I'm more about seeing the effects on non-lucids for me, experienceing the increased logical and sexual parts to my dream.



Yep yep.  :smiley:  One thing I really like about the sexual effects (at least for me) is that they make me more impulsive... which, in any dream really but especially in a lucid, gives me more control; it has that sense that everything in the dream just starts to mold correctly around my will without me having to actually really think about it. It feels kind of psychedelic in that way.... I love it. >w<

----------


## littlezoe

> Hmm... so have you noticed any lack of themes now that you're not taking it? Like, now that you have normal dreams to compare it to again, can you tell if the menthol was really adding much?



Hmm well not really... but after all the menthol didn't seem to affect me other than the increased times of becoming lucid... and some slight sexual/sensual theme in them... but in my regular dreams everything seems the same to me.

----------


## Vengeance

*Took a few Menthol Eucalyptus Halls before sleep last night. Increase in dream vividness and more importantly, I had far more interesting dreams. Also a noticeable increase in libido prior to reading this thread, therefore ruling out the placebo effect. Also, on a more noticeable note, despite the inability to fall asleep and other interruptions - I had greater-than-expected recall. That was day 1*

----------


## Alyzarin

> Hmm well not really... but after all the menthol didn't seem to affect me other than the increased times of becoming lucid... and some slight sexual/sensual theme in them... but in my regular dreams everything seems the same to me.



Ah, I see, I see.... Well, what do you think about the sexual themes then? How often exactly were you getting that effect? It seems like you might still want a higher dose for something more significant. You could go all out and eat four or five candies.  ::chuckle:: 





> Took a few Menthol Eucalyptus Halls before sleep last night. Increase in dream vividness and more importantly, I had far more interesting dreams. Also a noticeable increase in libido prior to reading this thread, therefore ruling out the placebo effect. Also, on a more noticeable note, despite the inability to fall asleep and other interruptions - I had greater-than-expected recall. That was day 1



Awesome! Welcome to the experiment.  :smiley:  I love the increase in sexual dreams, it's so interesting to explore. >w< I'm gonna have to take some tonight... I want to see what else I can get out of it.  :armflap:  Do you know the exact dose you took?

----------


## littlezoe

> Ah, I see, I see.... Well, what do you think about the sexual themes then? How often exactly were you getting that effect? It seems like you might still want a higher dose for something more significant. You could go all out and eat four or five candies.



Well, the sexual themes in my regular dreams didn't seem to appear more often than otherwise. I rarely have dreams like that, but i didn't have an increased number of them during the menthol tests.

As for a bigger dose... you know i totally forgot that o.o Hopefully i can get my hands on some Negro tomorrow, so i'll be able to try again with a bigger dose... maybe i would really need more for true effects.

----------


## Killing

Hm. I've had no sexual dreams and my doses are usually around 3-4 extra strong halls..>.> 
Had nothing to report for a day (or two, I have no sense of time right now), no recall.

*Dose:* 4 Halls extra strongs 12mg/piece = 48mg
*Side Effects:* None.
*Sleep Duration:* ~9 hours. 
*WBTB:* No.
*Lucid:* No.
*Vividness:* Scarily vivid..
*Stability:* High. I guess?
*Dream Comments:* I had interesting dreams, woke up straight from a dream, so, great recall n__n. The scary vividness..*shudder*..that was my friend's dog violently growling at me at a very close distance and holy crap that was scary.  :Oh noes: 

Ever since the whole menthol thing, I've had pretty intense feelings in my dreams. Fear, horrible confusion, love (not dirty. sweet and pure :3) and fear again.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Hm. I've had no sexual dreams and my doses are usually around 3-4 extra strong halls..>.> 
> Had nothing to report for a day (or two, I have no sense of time right now), no recall.
> 
> *Dose:* 4 Halls extra strongs 12mg/piece = 48mg
> *Side Effects:* None.
> *Sleep Duration:* ~9 hours. 
> *WBTB:* No.
> *Lucid:* No.
> *Vividness:* Scarily vivid..
> ...



That's quite interesting, as the thread we originally used as inspiration was made by someone who was eating a large amount of cough drops every night and getting dreams that were scaring them due to how vivid they were, and mentioned lots of dark themes as well. I wonder if you've touched on that same effect....

I also like how you mention the sweet and pure love themes. :3 Much earlier in this thread there was a lot of discussion on how the sexual themes of the menthol dreams were often pure or clean, more sensual than just crazy, and sometimes they're just sensual without so much being sexual. It seems to be kind of a trend, though of course if you're lucid during it it becomes a bit more up to you how it goes.  ::rolleyes::

----------


## Vengeance

*I THINK that they are around 7mg/piece and i had about 3 (quite a while before bed).*

----------


## Highlander

Mon July 22nd 2012

*Dose:* x1 Peppermint tea, x5 H & Lem Menthol cough drops = 48.5 mg,  x1 cup (0.25pt) Apple Juice and Water.*(Staged) 
*Side Effects:* Slight stomach griping (Gastric wind)
*Sleep Duration:* 6.25 hrs approx / 2.25 hrs after (Total = 8.5 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (33 min) 15 min exercise
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* A deeper sleep (due to tiredness?) Poor recall initially. No dreams reported pre WBTB. Three dreamsigns missed. Post waking flashback.
*(10.30 pm x1 cup, 2.10 am x2 drops, WBTB x3 drops)

The Factory. The woman in my kitchen, and the night out - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

I did expect a libido drop this morning and today due to the events yesterday evening; say no more!  ::hump::   :armflap: 

(P.S: The Peppermint tea works in the waking world as well!!!  :Shades wink: )

----------


## Killing

> That's quite interesting, as the thread we originally used as inspiration was made by someone who was eating a large amount of cough drops every night and getting dreams that were scaring them due to how vivid they were, and mentioned lots of dark themes as well. I wonder if you've touched on that same effect....



Hm. Awesome. Now, if it only got a bit more darker..>:D
Really, I'd like to finally have a serious nightmare.

*Dose:* 5 Halls extra strongs 12mg/piece = 60mg
*Side Effects:* None.
*Sleep Duration:* ~8,5h
*WBTB:* No.
*Lucid:* YUSS.
*Vividness:* Great :D
*Stability:* Normal.
*Dream Comments:* It was very vivid and I had control and all..there was this kind of love again. Nothing scary.

----------


## littlezoe

Finally got some Negro again today, but my mom bought some other type instead of the extra strong one... I tried it and it definitely tastes a lot weaker... so i don't know how much should i take from this... I don't really want to take 10... xD

Maybe it'll just eat this normally and buy an extra strong pack later...

----------


## Alyzarin

> I THINK that they are around 7mg/piece and i had about 3 (quite a while before bed).



Ah, cool. Thanks!  :smiley:  Have you thought about taking them a bit closer to bed? It would probably increase the effects a bit.





> I did expect a libido drop this morning and today due to the events yesterday evening; say no more!  
> 
> (P.S: The Peppermint tea works in the waking world as well!!! )



Good to know, good to know.  ::chuckle:: 





> Hm. Awesome. Now, if it only got a bit more dark..>
> Really, I'd like to finally have a serious nightmare.
> 
> *Dose:* 5 Halls extra strongs 12mg/piece = 60mg
> *Side Effects:* None.
> *Sleep Duration:* ~8,5h
> *WBTB:* No.
> *Lucid:* YUSS.
> *Vividness:* Great 
> ...



You and Wolfwood.  :tongue2:  So it was the same love feeling as before? The commonly-reported sensual effects, perhaps?  ::rolleyes:: 





> Finally got some Negro again today, but my mom bought some other type instead of the extra strong one... I tried it and it definitely tastes a lot weaker... so i don't know how much should i take from this... I don't really want to take 10... xD
> 
> Maybe it'll just eat this normally and buy an extra strong pack later...



Haha, yeah, I would probably wait for the stronger ones myself.  :tongue2:  The candies alone might cause more of a stomach ache than the menthol potentially would if you had to eat too many.  ::chuckle::

----------


## Highlander

I feel really motivated and hyped up. I've just got hold of a pack of really strong Menthol lozenges so I'm going to give those a blast during WBTB. (If I wake up!)  :armflap: 
I've had to take extra H2O on board as its gonna be a warm night.
I also have the problem of a south facing bedroom where I'm getting too much light which is causing me problems, even with the curtains closed.  ::roll::

----------


## TheForgotten

> Ah, cool. Thanks!  Have you thought about taking them a bit closer to bed? It would probably increase the effects a bit.



I know this wasn't directed to me but I thought I'd share my experience since you mentioned this.

I did my usual 30 mg before bed (this was like... 2 weeks ago?) and I slept for six hours.  I didn't experience the happiness glow-y feeling I have on every other occasion I've taken them.  One difference I noticed was the other experiences I've done with menthol (which wasn't much, only 3 or 4 times total), those episodes were short spans of sleep (~4 hours or less).  

So I do wonder if there's a time expiration involved.

I'll probably start trying this more.  I'm not opposed to happy glow-y feelings.





> I also have the problem of a south facing bedroom where I'm getting too much light which is causing me problems, even with the curtains closed.



I have a similar issue.  One word: eyemask.

Ok, two words: eye mask.

----------


## Alyzarin

> I know this wasn't directed to me but I thought I'd share my experience since you mentioned this.
> 
> I did my usual 30 mg before bed (this was like... 2 weeks ago?) and I slept for six hours.  I didn't experience the happiness glow-y feeling I have on every other occasion I've taken them.  One difference I noticed was the other experiences I've done with menthol (which wasn't much, only 3 or 4 times total), those episodes were short spans of sleep (~4 hours or less).  
> 
> So I do wonder if there's a time expiration involved.
> 
> I'll probably start trying this more.  I'm not opposed to happy glow-y feelings



That could be, as the half-life is fairly short. That's why I was originally saying it may be better suited for WBTB, even though I've only ever done it before bed. I feel that I may be particularly sensitive to its effects, though. But I'd say more than likely the more dreams you can get in soon after dosing the better effects you'll see.

You should start again! Who knows how deep the happy glow-y rabbit hole goes?  ::rolleyes::

----------


## Highlander

Tue July 24th 2012

*Dose:* x3 Extra strong Menthol cough drops = 47.4 mg,  x1 cup (0.25pt) Apple Juice and Water, x1 Vitamin B6 = 10 mg 
*Side Effects:* Insomnia, slight stomach griping (Gastric wind)
*Sleep Duration:* 4.5 hrs approx / 3 hrs after (Total = 7.5 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (35 min) 15 min exercise
*Lucid:* YES
*Vividness:* Average
*Stability:* Average
*Dream Comments:* Incubation attempt on retiring. No dreams reported pre WBTB. Very light sleep. Visuals and snippets. Top dreamsign recognised immediately. Lucidity with strong ‘energy’ feeling. (Energy effect due to the B6?)

Dad and the Phantom behind me - (lucid) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views






> I have a similar issue.  One word: eyemask.
> 
> Ok, two words: eye mask.



Thanks for that. I will look out for one when I'm next down town. Currently I'm using an old t shirt which helps but isn't that practical.  :smiley: 


Wed July 25th 2012 

*Dose:* (x3 Extra strong Menthol cough drops = 47.4 mg) *(Staged), x1 cup (0.25pt) Apple Juice and Water. x2 Vitamin B6 = 20mg
*Side Effects:* Gripey stomach
*Sleep Duration:* 5.25 hrs/ 3.25 hrs after (Total = 8.5 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (30 min) 10 min exercise
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Some visuals and reverie. Generally good dream storylines and recall although I did experience mental blocks upon waking with some. I experienced very poor sleep quality throughout the night probably due to the heat which resulted in feeling groggy and tired upon waking for the day. *( 1.53 am x1 drop, WBTB x2 drops)

http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/robs...lub-etc-36328/

----------


## Highlander

Thur July 26th 2012

*Dose:* x2 Extra strong Menthol cough drops = 31.6 mg,  x1 cup (0.25pt) Water
*Side Effects:* Slight stomach griping (Gastric wind)
*Sleep Duration:* 6 hrs approx / 2.25 hrs after (Total = 8.25 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (30 min) 
*Lucid:* YES
*Vividness:* Average
*Stability:* Average
*Dream Comments:* Two main dreams reported pre WBTB. Good recall. Incubation attempt at WBTB. Very light sleep. Visuals and snippets.  Awareness with short lucidity. Unable to sleep early on due to the heat.

The football fan, surname, R.E.M. etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Alyzarin

> Thur July 26th 2012
> 
> *Dose:* x2 Extra strong Menthol cough drops = 31.6 mg,  x1 cup (0.25pt) Water
> *Side Effects:* Slight stomach griping (Gastric wind)
> *Sleep Duration:* 6 hrs approx / 2.25 hrs after (Total = 8.25 hrs)
> *WBTB:* Yes (30 min) 
> *Lucid:* YES
> *Vividness:* Average
> *Stability:* Average
> ...



You wouldn't happen to be keeping track of how many times you've gotten lucid with this have you?  ::huh::  It seems like you're getting lucid a lot!

I really need to try the menthol again, but I've been really distracted lately. I checked out the stores too and none of the scales are accurate enough to use safely, I'm going to have to buy one online to dose out my pure crystals. >w< I'm thinking about adding them to the stack I'm using right now soon, with all the vitamins. I'll bet they'd make for a cool combo.  ::rolleyes::

----------


## Highlander

> You wouldn't happen to be keeping track of how many times you've gotten lucid with this have you?  It seems like you're getting lucid a lot!



Over the course of 22 days I had 10 lucids. (This includes the two days where I had a dry WBTB weekend.)
Three of the lucids were highly memorable - where in one I even got laid!  ::shock:: 


(P.S: I noticed that I have made a couple of big date typo's regarding the posts for the dreams of Sun July 22nd and Mon July 23rd respectively - This error has been corrected in the dream journal entries for those dates. Obviously I'm unable to edit the original posts now. Note they are not duplicated; they are seperate.)  :smiley:

----------


## Alyzarin

> Over the course of 22 days I had 10 lucids. (This includes the two days where I had a dry WBTB weekend.)
> Three of the lucids were highly memorable - where in one I even got laid! 
> 
> 
> (P.S: I noticed that I have made a couple of big date typo's regarding the posts for the dreams of Sun July 22nd and Mon July 23rd respectively - This error has been corrected in the dream journal entries for those dates. Obviously I'm unable to edit the original posts now. Note they are not duplicated; they are seperate.)



Oh wow, that is a lot! Pretty good track record.  ::rolleyes::  And noted.  :smiley: 

I really need to get my laptop fixed so I can make a spreadsheet and get this data in. I'd say we've had a good amount of testing done now, and the hype is dying down. It's time to see what kind of data we've pulled together. I'd say it definitely works in at least some people, for sure, but I wonder how much the numbers will back up it being a widespread supplement?

----------


## Highlander

Thanks!
To be fair, I did have a good run in June as well. I was mostly on the AJ then. (You could probably use that as my control? I.e. compare my early DJ results with this month's. All times / supplements used, or not used, etc. should be accurate.)
Any questions then give me a shout!
I did put a heck of a lot of work into it, probably a bit too much sometimes with the continuous WBTB, etc. However I had a bit of a blast, and I will always remember those memorable and vivid lucid/dreams, so again, thanks for that.
A lot of the lucids I had were short affairs - but hey we all need the practice for when the long stable ones come along.  :smiley:

----------


## Alyzarin

Alright, I'll check it out!  ::content::  I'll let you know if I need any info!

Since things are kind of winding down here, have you considered going on another break? Not to get more data or anything, but just since you've been using pretty good amounts of menthol. I certainly wouldn't want you to discover some unwanted side effects just because of this.  :smiley: 

And yes indeed! A lucid is a lucid, and the more you have the better you get regardless.  ::D:

----------


## Highlander

> Alright, I'll check it out!  I'll let you know if I need any info!



Yep, no problem.  :smiley: 





> Since things are kind of winding down here, have you considered going on another break? Not to get more data or anything, but just since you've been using pretty good amounts of menthol. I certainly wouldn't want you to discover some unwanted side effects just because of this.



Yes sure. I will probably wind down a little. I will probably run with this 'till the end of this month, then post any results on here.
It was mainly the DJ and the typing that I found difficult. I really do enjoy the LD. I did consider giving it up at one point however I'm glad I persevered with it. 
I'm quite lucky in a sense as I don't really get nightmares, etc. Sure I get spooky, sort of sinister dreams but nothing too bad. I tend not to over feed my imagination (via TV, movies, etc.)
My only vice(s) are the odd paracetamol, or looking at the sexy hawt girls thread.  ::imslow:: 


Friday July 27th 2012

*Dose:* x3 Peppermint tea, x2 Extra strong Menthol cough drops = 31.6 mg, x3 Vitamin B6 tablets = 30 mg.*(Staged)
*Side Effects:* Slight stomach griping (Gastric wind)
*Sleep Duration:* 3.5 hrs approx / 5 hrs approx after (Total = 8.5 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (30 min)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Very poor / Bad
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* A much deeper sleep. Very poor recall. Earlier WBTB time. No significant dreams (if any?) reported pre or post WBTB. Felt randy post waking. (Psychological ?)
*(10.30 pm x1 cup, 11.55 pm x1 cup, WBTB x1 cup, x2 drops)

http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/robs...d-notes-36415/

----------


## littlezoe

Ah well... i still couldn't get the extra strong Negros and i don't feel like eating a whole pack of cough drops ever again... So i'm still out. But it's good to see that some of you are still testing  :tongue2:

----------


## Killing

Oh dear.. I had a 4 day break from menthol and last night I decided to take only 2, just to see if anything would happen.

*Dose:*  2 Halls extra strongs 12mg/piece = 24mg (is it really only 12mg? I'm seriously doubting that.)
*Side Effects:*  none
*Sleep Duration:*  5 hours
*WBTB:*  No
*Lucid:*  Nope (or maybe semi-lucid, I wanted to wake myself up.)
*Vividness:*  Great
*Stability:* Great, I suppose?
*Dream Comments:* Two nightmares in a row D:>. At the end, when I was too tired to fight them anymore, I stabbed myself with a pair of scissors to wake up, twice. Didn't quite wake up the first time.

I should have more breaks :D

----------


## Highlander

Sat July 28th 2012

*Dose:* x2 H & Lem Menthol cough drops = 19.4 mg, x1 cup (0.25pt) Apple Juice and Water, x1 Vitamin B6 tablet = 10 mg, x1 Banana
*Side Effects:* Slight stomach griping (Gastric wind)
*Sleep Duration:* 5.5 hrs approx / 2.5 hrs approx after (Total = 8 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (30 min)
*Lucid:* YES
*Vividness:* Good
*Stability:* Good
*Dream Comments:* A deeper sleep. Good recall of dreams and visuals. A memorable lucid. I remembered a stabilization technique and used it successfully. I went through a ‘solid’ object for the first time consciously. I tried my hand at reading an Aura.

My Bedroom. Going through a closed door (DILD), etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Alyzarin

> Oh dear.. I had a 4 day break from menthol and last night I decided to take only 2, just to see if anything would happen.
> 
> *Dose:*  2 Halls extra strongs 12mg/piece = 24mg (is it really only 12mg? I'm seriously doubting that.)
> *Side Effects:*  none
> *Sleep Duration:*  5 hours
> *WBTB:*  No
> *Lucid:*  Nope (or maybe semi-lucid, I wanted to wake myself up.)
> *Vividness:*  Great
> *Stability:* Great, I suppose?
> ...



Sounds, uh, exciting.  ::lol::  Hooray for nightmares!...?  ::D: 





> Sat July 28th 2012
> 
> *Dose:* x2 H & Lem Menthol cough drops = 19.4 mg, x1 cup (0.25pt) Apple Juice and Water, x1 Vitamin B6 tablet = 10 mg, x1 Banana
> *Side Effects:* Slight stomach griping (Gastric wind)
> *Sleep Duration:* 5.5 hrs approx / 2.5 hrs approx after (Total = 8 hrs)
> *WBTB:* Yes (30 min)
> *Lucid:* YES
> *Vividness:* Good
> *Stability:* Good
> ...



Sounds like a fun night.  :tongue2:  I love phasing through stuff, it's the first power I actually worked to be good at. When I first started I would try to go through walls but they would just get pushed out a bit... like they would mold around me pushing through them but they'd be near impossible to actually get all the way through.  ::chuckle::  Talk about frustrating!

----------


## dutchraptor

I haven't had menthol in two days but the sexual dreams are persisting, maybe I can calm it down with some more menthol.

----------


## Highlander

Sun July 29th 2012

*Dose:* x4 H and Lem cough drops = 38.8 mg, x1 cup (0.25pt) Apple Juice and Water, x1 Vitamin B6 = 10 mg *(Staged)
*Side Effects:* Slight stomach griping (Gastric wind)
*Sleep Duration:* 5.75 hrs approx / 3.5 hrs after (Total = 9.25 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (22 min)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Early nightmare type scenario. Average to good dream recall with a bit of mental block. Sexy dream encounter. Good quality sleep and relaxation. Major dreamsign missed. Visuals and strong Hypnopompic imagery after sleeping on.
*(3.05 am x2 drops, WBTB x2 drops)

No breath. The girl spy and the kiss. Mom, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


Mon July 30th 2012

*Dose:* x2 H and Lem Menthol cough drops = 19.4 mg,  x1 cup (0.25pt) Apple Juice and Water. x1 Vitamin B6 = 10 mg
*Side Effects:* Stomach griping (Gastric wind)
*Sleep Duration:* 6 hrs approx / 2.25 hrs after (Total = 8.25 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (24 min) 
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Good recall. One dream had a depressing winter theme, whilst in another I felt like punching someone who represented something untrustworthy/secretive.

http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/robs...ng-pong-36534/

----------


## Wolfwood

> I haven't had menthol in two days but the sexual dreams are persisting, maybe I can calm it down with some more menthol.



You're buggered now. You will forever have sexual dreams. Oh the horror. ;p

----------


## Highlander

Tue July 31st 2012

*Dose:* x2 H and Lem Menthol cough drops = 19.4 mg, x2 cup (0.25pt) Apple Juice and Water, x1 Banana, x1 Breakfast *(Staged)
*Side Effects:* Slight stomach upset (Gastric)
*Sleep Duration:* 5.5 hrs approx/2.75 hrs/2.5 hrs after (Total = 10.75 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (Two periods)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Pre WBTB - (No Menthol): FAP, Nightmarish early REM dreams, major panic attack (on early waking). Post WBTB - (Menthol): No major dreams to report, generally short or dream snippets. Reverie and visuals consistent with extra sleep.
*(WBTB1 5.15 am x2 drops, x1 AJ, x1 banana, WBTB2 8.30 am x1 breakfast cereal with milk, x1 AJ)

A couple of really bad dreamsStop :tongue2: anic, etc!!! - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## dutchraptor

Time for an update guys, and this is a big one.
So I started a new chemical mixture, peppermint and st johns wort and the effectiveness was over the top.
*dose* one hand of peppermint and one hand of st johns wort leaves steeped in boiling water for ten mins.
*Side Effects* Harder to fall asleep
*Sleep Duration* 9hrs
*WBTB* Deild
*Lucid* Yes or no, I don't remember if it happened after I lost lucidity or I started a new dream.
*Vividness* Great
*Stability* good
*Dream Comments:* Your definition of sexual dream cannot be applied to what I have eperienced, I repeat *cannot*. It was so sexual I'm not gonna post what happened because it would make the internet seem like a safe place. Just know that before menthol I have only remembered about 3 sexual dreams, I already noted an increase with menthol and now this. I advise *everyone* to try it, seriously.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Time for an update guys, and this is a big one.
> So I started a new chemical mixture, peppermint and st johns wort and the effectiveness was over the top.
> *dose* one hand of peppermint and one hand of st johns wort leaves steeped in boiling water for ten mins.
> *Side Effects* Harder to fall asleep
> *Sleep Duration* 9hrs
> *WBTB* Deild
> *Lucid* Yes or no, I don't remember if it happened after I lost lucidity or I started a new dream.
> *Vividness* Great
> *Stability* good
> *Dream Comments:* Your definition of sexual dream cannot be applied to what I have eperienced, I repeat *cannot*. It was so sexual I'm not gonna post what happened because it would make the internet seem like a safe place. Just know that before menthol I have only remembered about 3 sexual dreams, I already noted an increase with menthol and now this. I advise *everyone* to try it, seriously.



This is pretty much what I was going for when I tried the combination before. X) I ended up taking way too much though on impulse and barely even got any sleep because there were too many side effects. (By the way, try not to take too much lol.) The only time I've experimented successfully with St. John's wort for dreams, my night was completely filled with movie-plot-esque romantic storylines with lots of excitement and beautiful imagery. Since it was just one night it was hard to say if that would be the norm for me, but I've really been wondering how the effect would mix with menthol. >w< I bet it would turn my dreams into some kind of sensual fantasy wonderland. For a guy, I can only imagine.... Well, maybe it's better you didn't go into detail with yours.  ::chuckle:: 

Now I really want to try this combo again.  :drool:  Rather than sticking to my hypericin extracts or my Amoryn (since it has so many other things in it as well), I think I might go try to find this old tea shop I used to go to years ago. I'm pretty sure they stocked St. John's wort there....

----------


## Chrisito

> Time for an update guys, and this is a big one.
> So I started a new chemical mixture, peppermint and st johns wort and the effectiveness was over the top.
> *dose* one hand of peppermint and one hand of st johns wort leaves steeped in boiling water for ten mins.
> *Side Effects* Harder to fall asleep
> *Sleep Duration* 9hrs
> *WBTB* Deild
> *Lucid* Yes or no, I don't remember if it happened after I lost lucidity or I started a new dream.
> *Vividness* Great
> *Stability* good
> *Dream Comments:* Your definition of sexual dream cannot be applied to what I have eperienced, I repeat *cannot*. It was so sexual I'm not gonna post what happened because it would make the internet seem like a safe place. Just know that before menthol I have only remembered about 3 sexual dreams, I already noted an increase with menthol and now this. I advise *everyone* to try it, seriously.



TELL ME DETAILS HOW I DO THIS. WHAT KIND OF PEPPERMINT AND WHERE DO I GET ST JOHNS WORT LOL...
hahahahhaa...
no but seriously????

----------


## Alyzarin

> TELL ME DETAILS HOW I DO THIS. WHAT KIND OF PEPPERMINT AND WHERE DO I GET ST JOHNS WORT LOL...
> hahahahhaa...
> no but seriously????



Any regular peppermint tea will do.  :tongue2:  As will peppermint candies, certain cough drops, essentials oils, etc... anything that has menthol. I would personally recommend the peppermint tea as the main method, though. Menthol alone seems to be correlated with an increase in sexual dreams. The St. John's wort probably adds a more intense plot to it. Some places just sell St. John's wort tea, but how easily you can find it probably depends a lot on where you live. Many pharmacies also have it as an over-the-counter antidepressant, but I'm betting that the actual plant or tea would be more effective. If push comes to shove, you can get it online at a lot of places.  :smiley:

----------


## dutchraptor

> TELL ME DETAILS HOW I DO THIS. WHAT KIND OF PEPPERMINT AND WHERE DO I GET ST JOHNS WORT LOL...
> hahahahhaa...
> no but seriously????



Hahaha I knew my post would attract customers  :tongue2: 
I do agree fully with alyzarin though. Getting the actual tea of both is the best, not just any tea (it has to be in a canister not in a teabag). Also the st johns wort has to be only the leaves and not the flower so make a note of that too.

Side note: for a complete wacky aggresive experience you will want to take pine pollen during WTBT. Viking's used to do this because it increases your adrenaline lievels in your body. Wouldn't mind trying it before a dream.

----------


## Chrisito

Ok so i don't look for Peppermint tea bags only the leaves ??? and same with St Johns Wort ??
what about if i take the stuff outta the tea bags lol.

----------


## dutchraptor

> Ok so i don't look for Peppermint tea bags only the leaves ??? and same with St Johns Wort ??
> what about if i take the stuff outta the tea bags lol.



You could but it wouldn't be as potent,the st johns wort would be fine from a bag because its a medicinal herb but usually the mint tea you buy in bags is quite weak and made only for the flavour, unless you buy it from a special place Ie not your local supermarket but your local hippie herb shop place.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Side note: for a complete wacky aggresive experience you will want to take pine pollen during WTBT. Viking's used to do this because it increases your adrenaline lievels in your body. Wouldn't mind trying it before a dream.



You might want to be careful with how much of that you use.  :tongue2:  Adrenaline directly inhibits REM sleep.

----------


## dutchraptor

> You might want to be careful with how much of that you use.  Adrenaline directly inhibits REM sleep.



Interesting, I haven't spent much time researching it yet but I'll look into it tonight.

----------


## Chrisito

Has anyone ever tried BEROCCA before bed??? that has load of b-vitamins in it? i was thinking about trying it but thought i might ask?
might just make a post for it see if anyone has experimented with it..

----------


## dutchraptor

It would probably enhance your dreams, but I know that it also wakes you up, and any stimulants would probably be bad to your Rem Sleep (like my adrenaline ides  :tongue2: )

----------


## Highlander

> It would probably enhance your dreams, but I know that it also wakes you up, and any stimulants would probably be bad to your Rem Sleep (like my adrenaline ides )



I have found that Sex on the night beforhand always helps me. I always get a good night's sleep after, probably due to the 'happy chemicals' and endorphines released into my bloodstream, not to mention the exercise.  ::D: 

I know it's a bit TMI.  :Oops:  But hey, if it's not broke, then it don't need fixing!  :Shades wink:

----------


## dutchraptor

I wouldn't be surprised, if you look at anti-depressants they nearly all have sexual side effects. It's such a primal action and linked with many parts of your brain I could imagine the great effects it could have.

----------


## Batch

This thread is 19 pages long, and with all the dreams I have been having, I don't have time to read it ... but an experience I had last night tied in to this thread, so I thought I would post on here.

I was feeling slightly sick and clogged up yesterday. Nothing horrible, but slightly out of sorts ... so I decided to use some Vicks. Used on feet, chest, and tiny dabs under nostrils, and went to sleep.

Woke four times during the night, and easily went back to sleep each time after writing down dreams. Recalled five dreams from the night, in detail, very easily. I have either never remembered five dreams in one night before, or only done it once or twice in my life. I certainly have never remembered five so easily. They were just right there in my mind.

Nothing lucid, and nothing else special done to aid recall. Will try again tonight. One time proves nothing. But Vicks does include menthol, and I have heard rumors of smells that you smell while dreaming and then again while awake and trying to recall dreams aiding in recall. Figured I would mention my experience.

----------


## Chrisito

> This thread is 19 pages long, and with all the dreams I have been having, I don't have time to read it ... but an experience I had last night tied in to this thread, so I thought I would post on here.
> 
> I was feeling slightly sick and clogged up yesterday. Nothing horrible, but slightly out of sorts ... so I decided to use some Vicks. Used on feet, chest, and tiny dabs under nostrils, and went to sleep.
> 
> Woke four times during the night, and easily went back to sleep each time after writing down dreams. Recalled five dreams from the night, in detail, very easily. I have either never remembered five dreams in one night before, or only done it once or twice in my life. I certainly have never remembered five so easily. They were just right there in my mind.
> 
> Nothing lucid, and nothing else special done to aid recall. Will try again tonight. One time proves nothing. But Vicks does include menthol, and I have heard rumors of smells that you smell while dreaming and then again while awake and trying to recall dreams aiding in recall. Figured I would mention my experience.



I never even thought of that !! vicks vapo rub.. yeah thats an awesome idea. i tried vicks vapo drops with nothing happening so might give it a try too, but yeah let me know how you go with 2nd night and then i will give it a crack!!!,

----------


## Batch

Second night I tried this, absolutely nothing. No dream recall, no vividness, nothing. And things have gone insane here, so for a couple of days until life is somewhat stable, I won't be trying again. But it was still worth trying.  :wink2:

----------


## Highlander

Aug 14th 2012

*Dose:* x2 H and L Menthol cough drops = 19.4 mg 
*Side Effects:* Generally ok
*Sleep Duration:* 5 hrs / 3.75 hrs after (Total = 8.75 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (14 min) 
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Good
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Above average recall noted. Anxiety theme present in dreams. Sexy theme in one dream. Long storylines. Reverie and light image manipulation ability whilst half-asleep.

The house. A naked lady. The TV aerial, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


I couldn't resist trying the Menthol thing again as I'm going through a bit of a 'lean' patch. Hopefully I can improve my IM abilities, etc. as well.  :smiley:

----------


## Highlander

Aug 15th 2012

*Dose:* x2 H and L Menthol cough drops = 19.4 mg 
*Side Effects:* Slight stomach wind - Generally ok
*Sleep Duration:* 4.75 hrs approx / 4 hrs after (Total = 8.75 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (10 min) 
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Good storyline. A deeper sleep, possibly being attributed to a short WBTB duration. I did have a few dreams except I didn’t seem to have the mental energy or motivation to write them down straight away; hence the reason I forgot them mostly.

Dad visits my house - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


Aug 16th 2012

*Dose:* x3 H and L Menthol cough drops = 29.1 mg 
*Side Effects:* Slight stomach grumble - Generally ok
*Sleep Duration:* 5.25 hrs / 3.5 hrs after (Total = 8.75 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (15 min approx) 
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Only remembered one dream late on in the morning. However I did seem to get a good overall sleep.

An all action movie, starring 3 bad ass men, including Mr ‘T’ - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


Aug 17th 2012

*Dose:* x2 H and L Menthol cough drops = 19.4 mg, Banana (x1)
*Side Effects:* None, apart from the tiredness
*Sleep Duration:* 4.75 hrs / 4 hrs approx after (Total = 8.75 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (30 min) 
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Very good
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Very good recall of post WBTB dreams. Good storylines. Successful extended IM exercise carried out whilst half-asleep, late morning. I felt really tired and groggy upon final waking. (Note: I did get motivated by my DEILD attempt carried out pre-WBTB earlier.)

A DEILD attempt. The Football book. Danniella Westbrook. A hand-bomb, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Nerq

After twenty pages of response, my reply might seem a bit grey- but congradulations on this thread Alyzarin.  Terrific research and one of the most refreshing posts I've read, yet.  Tonight I'll join in the experiment with a few cough drops! Definitely excited to see the outcome.

----------


## dutchraptor

Welcome to the experiment, alyzarin has left the website temporarily unfortunately but me and robstar still frequent the thread, keep us updated.

----------


## Highlander

Hi Nerq,

As Dutch has mentioned in the previous post that the Menthol thread was (is) Aly's baby. However we do hang about here (like ghosts) "he, he"; probably waiting for a visitation! Lol.  ::shock:: 
Seriously though, try and make a note of the brand, and the dosage, where possible, (usually quoted in mg on the pack somewhere) with a note of any effects, whether physical, or on the dream itself. I personally used a template (above) however that now is completely up to you as it wasn't my original idea, but it was adopted by people trying the experiment.
The important bit is to be sensible and not go overboard, as technically they (the lozenges) are a type of 'medication'. Just make sure you aren't allergic to Menthol, or indeed any of the other contents.
The (main) side effects I generally got included a grumbly stomach and sleeplessness, but it depends on the individual.

Regards.  :smiley:

----------


## Highlander

Wed Aug 29th 2012

*Dose:* x2 H and L Menthol Cough drops = 19.4 mg, Banana (x1) with a little milk and water.
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* 6 hrs approx after/ 3.5 hrs after (9.5 hrs approx)
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Transition felt during relaxation/WILD attempt. Average recall. Sexual dream theme noted.

Cycling dream – Le Tour? - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


Thur Aug 30th 2012

*Dose:* x2 H and L Menthol Cough drops = 19.4 mg, Chocolate chip cookie (x1) with a little milk and water.
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* 5.5 hrs approx after/ 3.5 hrs after (9 hrs approx)
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Fell asleep during relaxation/WILD attempt. Average recall. Sexual dream themes noted. Hypnopompic imagery before waking up for the day.

http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/robs...ter-etc-37945/

----------


## Highlander

Fri Aug 31st 2012

*Dose:* x3 H and L Menthol Cough drops = 29.1 mg
*Side Effects:* A grumbling stomach upon waking
*Sleep Duration:* 6 hrs approx after/ 3.25 hrs after (9.25 hrs approx)
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Typical
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Fell asleep totally during relaxation/WILD attempt. Average recall. Anxiety dream noted. Hypnopompic imagery before waking up for the day.

Banned. The underground bunker. An anxiety dream, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## kislany

Argh I can't test this as menthol is a total killer when you have stomach acid (or GERD). I love menthol but I've got to stay away from it  :Sad:  Great read btw.

----------


## StaySharp

I'm getting pretty interested in this; I guess I will try it. Just that I don't know how what to use in order to ingest menthol. Buying pure menthol crystals online is extremely easy and it's also pretty cheap but I don't know if that would work, I'm not able to find anything on the topic of using those crystals for eating in any way at all, which keeps me a little skeptical.

----------


## Highlander

> Argh I can't test this as menthol is a total killer when you have stomach acid (or GERD). I love menthol but I've got to stay away from it  Great read btw.



I used to get a bit of a windy and grumbly stomach a lot of times if I ingested a few of the lozenges during WBTB myself, which was a bit of a pity, although on low doses I was generally ok as you can see from my reports. Mind you I had been under a lot of stress this year.
However I have to agree that I don't think Menthol works for everyone.
One time when I tried the Menthol experiment then I had a really good LD, which was brought to an abrupt end and I woke me up when my stomach made a sudden noise.  :Sad: 





> I'm getting pretty interested in this; I guess I will try it. Just that I don't know how what to use in order to ingest menthol. Buying pure menthol crystals online is extremely easy and it's also pretty cheap but I don't know if that would work, I'm not able to find anything on the topic of using those crystals for eating in any way at all, which keeps me a little skeptical.



I know Aly (Alyzarin) did actually buy some Menthol crystals, but I don't know if she got round to actually experiment with them. She might correct me on this, but I'm not sure if it was intended to be used in its pure form as it is quite strong, etc.
We all mainly started out using the Menthol cough drops/lozenges like you can buy over the counter at a shop or chemists. The (pepper)mint tea was tried as well, which is what a lot of the posts on here are about, rather than the pure form of Menthol if that helps.

Regards  :smiley:

----------


## StaySharp

Okay, then I'll wait on the crystals till she's back. Will probably try some of the other things, starting with peppermint tea since I like it anyway. I already got around to read the entire first post by Aly but not the the entire thread cause it's a little long.
Any tips on what seems to be most efficient and if tea is efficient at all?

----------


## Highlander

I think any of the teas with a mint content would probably do, although I didn't feel that I had much luck with it myself. Aly, Dutch, (Dutchraptor) and some of the other guys on here had better results. 
Just make sure that you get a tea that you enjoy as I think they are generally more expensive IMO.
I know Dutchraptor made his own 'brew' up if you want to go down that route. He used to frequent this thread alot.

----------


## dutchraptor

> Okay, then I'll wait on the crystals till she's back. Will probably try some of the other things, starting with peppermint tea since I like it anyway. I already got around to read the entire first post by Aly but not the the entire thread cause it's a little long.
> Any tips on what seems to be most efficient and if tea is efficient at all?



Menthol crystals work but you have to weigh them extremely well, try not to take more than 150mg in one day. If you are taking that much only use it every second day.
As for the lozenges I don't think they worked, they were too much hassle to be having at night. The tea however worked extremely well and therefore I believe that more than just menthol came into play. In peppermint there is methone and menthol and a few other, as a whole they contribute to making the brain more aware by increasing bloodflow to the brain. I'm not sure if only menthol really has the desired effect. I anyways made up a special brew of plants meant especially for increasing brain speed. I often used it before tests or when I have to remember or think hard.
It was:
Fresh peppermint.
horse chestnut leaves.
clary sage.
st johns wort. (This one is only to make the dream more euphoric and unusual)

Any two of this list will do and they have all been shown to increase memory recall by up to 25% in students when doing tests. The peppermint was a definite cause of sexual dreams, I can't exactly remember the function it had but something caused it to multiply primal feelings in dreams. 
Never drink any of these for more than two weeks without a few days break because some people can react to various chemicals in the plants. While none are poisinous caution must still be taken.
Dutchraptor,

----------


## StaySharp

Cool, that's something I can stick to. I will start with tea, and see if I'll ever bother using crystals. If I get some results I'll post them (could take a few days though).

----------


## Highlander

Mon Sept 24th 2012

*Dose:* 29.1mg x3 Cough drops.
*Side Effects:* Initial alertness.
*Sleep Duration:* Less than 3 hrs after WBTB/relaxation. 5 hrs beforehand.
*WBTB:* Yes 
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Strong
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Sexual dream. Vivid dreams. Lots of dreams/fragments after WBTB. TL;DR. I felt tired when waking up for the day.  ::shock:: 
(N.B: Relaxation routine probably could be classed as an ‘extended’ WBTB, as I was alert for most of the time.)

Sexy GF on couch. Non-stop dreaming! - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Alyzarin

Awww, you guys kept it running! I'm touched. :') Geez RobStar, you're really sticking to this thing, huh.  :tongue2:  I'm glad it's still working out for you!  ::content:: 

I had a libido-fueled dream this morning and I woke up with a craving for menthol.  ::rolleyes::  So I figured I'd drop by and see what's up. :3





> After twenty pages of response, my reply might seem a bit grey- but congradulations on this thread Alyzarin.  Terrific research and one of the most refreshing posts I've read, yet.  Tonight I'll join in the experiment with a few cough drops! Definitely excited to see the outcome.



Thanks, Nerq!  :smiley:  I've been doing even more research since I last posted something, I have so many theories about how this could work lol. Won't ever know for sure unless it gets lab tested though~

I don't know if you ever gave it a shot, but you should let us know if you did!





> Argh I can't test this as menthol is a total killer when you have stomach acid (or GERD). I love menthol but I've got to stay away from it  Great read btw.



That's a bummer!  :Sad:  Thank you, though.  ::content::  I'll let you know if I figure out anything else that's easy to come by that might work the same way as menthol, I've been researching it for a while now.  :tongue2: 





> I'm getting pretty interested in this; I guess I will try it. Just that I don't know how what to use in order to ingest menthol. Buying pure menthol crystals online is extremely easy and it's also pretty cheap but I don't know if that would work, I'm not able to find anything on the topic of using those crystals for eating in any way at all, which keeps me a little skeptical.



Hey StaySharp!  ::D:  Welcome to the experiment. :3 I look forward to your results! How is your recall holding up lately?

As has been said, the cough drops and the peppermint tea are really the most common method, though littlezoe and I also used mint candies. The cough drops definitely work for me and have all the sexual effects and increase my visualization, but peppermint tea is probably a little easier on you and, as dutchraptor has mentioned, comes with the added benefit of having been tested and shown to be a memory enhancer, which may or may not come from the menthol. If you had to choose between one I would recommend the latter, but I'd recommend trying both to see how you like them if you're willing.

Don't buy pure crystals unless you have a milligram scale and are willing to take risks, becaue I don't know of any designed for eating either lol. It is the surest way to get a clean and strong effect though with exact dosages. I haven't used mine yet because I haven't had the money to get a scale yet, but I've been meaning to get one anyway, so I can't give any update on that yet.

----------


## Highlander

To be fair Aly, I had been using AJ, 10 mg B6 off and on, with the odd banana/WBTB thrown in for good measure. However when I saw activity on the thread this weekend then I thought I'd get a pack and give it a bit of a shot for old times sake.
The trouble is I'm coming to a bit of a 'crossroads' in my life. I still want to carry on with the LD as I'm getting better. I want to develop spiritually as they say, but I'm conscious that I will have to do other things in my life, regarding my career, etc. as I have let things slip for reasons, alot of which were out of my control.

BTW glad to see you about.  :smiley:

----------


## Alyzarin

Well, it's good that you haven't been using it constantly, you do need some breaks.  :tongue2: 

It's perfectly understandable.  :smiley:  I've felt that way a lot recently as well, but I'm starting to kind of move beyond it now.... A lot of issues in my life have been resolving themselves, and I'm actually starting to make some spiritual leaps and bounds. That's one of the reasons I've been thinking about menthol more often too, I actually do think of it as a useful tool for this. It enhances my sexuality and sense of control in dreams in essentially the same way that cannabinoids and psychedelics do in the waking world, and my sexuality and spirituality are strongly linked. It's pretty nifty.  ::content:: 

And it's good to see you too.  ::hug::

----------


## Highlander

Thanks Aly. I think it is good to take stock of a (life) situation now and then. Glad to see things are going well for you.

Re: Menthol.




> ...It enhances my sexuality and sense of control in dreams in essentially the same way that cannabinoids and psychedelics do in the waking world, and my sexuality and spirituality are strongly linked. It's pretty nifty.



It's funny you say that because the nearest I can relate to such things (apart from dreams) is when I used to do a heck of a lot of (introspective) drawings and ideas. I used to be able to somehow 'tap into' my libido as it were. It is hard to explain but I used that 'energy' (if that's the correct word?) to boost my creativity.
I make a reference to it in that drawing that I recently posted (as an attachment) on the 'RR C and C' thread.

P.S: I liked the ones you posted on there a few weeks back. The (first) pencil one reminded me of that Pink Floyd record cover, if you know what I mean.

----------


## StaySharp

> Hey StaySharp!  Welcome to the experiment. :3 I look forward to your results! How is your recall holding up lately?
> 
> As has been said, the cough drops and the peppermint tea are really the most common method, though littlezoe and I also used mint candies. The cough drops definitely work for me and have all the sexual effects and increase my visualization, but peppermint tea is probably a little easier on you and, as dutchraptor has mentioned, comes with the added benefit of having been tested and shown to be a memory enhancer, which may or may not come from the menthol. If you had to choose between one I would recommend the latter, but I'd recommend trying both to see how you like them if you're willing.
> 
> Don't buy pure crystals unless you have a milligram scale and are willing to take risks, becaue I don't know of any designed for eating either lol. It is the surest way to get a clean and strong effect though with exact dosages. I haven't used mine yet because I haven't had the money to get a scale yet, but I've been meaning to get one anyway, so I can't give any update on that yet.



Welcome back Aly  :smiley: 
My recall is rather bad but that's just due to me not getting any time and possibility to sleep properly, permanently I have to or want to do stuff. It's a temporary state though.
But every time I get to sleep properly my recall shows its old strength, so I'm not worried too much.

Tried the tea yesterday, but probably far too early for it to affect my sleep, didn't get any big results. I would try the crystals, but as you mentioned it would be about scale, which I had to buy as well. Given it is described as pure it should be fine, especially if used in tea, with like 50mg or so. But otherwise I figured as well it'd be best not to risk it.

I'll see if I get any effects soon, which I hope  :wink2:

----------


## Alyzarin

> Thanks Aly. I think it is good to take stock of a (life) situation now and then. Glad to see things are going well for you.
> 
> Re: Menthol.
> 
> It's funny you say that because the nearest I can relate to such things (apart from dreams) is when I used to do a heck of a lot of (introspective) drawings and ideas. I used to be able to somehow 'tap into' my libido as it were. It is hard to explain but I used that 'energy' (if that's the correct word?) to boost my creativity.
> I make a reference to it in that drawing that I recently posted (as an attachment) on the 'RR C and C' thread.
> 
> P.S: I liked the ones you posted on there a few weeks back. The (first) pencil one reminded me of that Pink Floyd record cover, if you know what I mean.



Your drawings do always seem pretty psychedelic.  :tongue2:  That is what it's like though, yeah. When my libido gets going that strong I start getting those types of images flooding my mind, and if I'm decently high it's actually so strong that they hit me like visions, good stuff.  ::D: 

Oh man, I'd never seen that album cover before, I just looked it up. >w< That's really similar!  ::shock::  I was just going off of my imagination. X) Thanks, though!  ::content:: 





> Welcome back Aly 
> My recall is rather bad but that's just due to me not getting any time and possibility to sleep properly, permanently I have to or want to do stuff. It's a temporary state though.
> But every time I get to sleep properly my recall shows its old strength, so I'm not worried too much.
> 
> Tried the tea yesterday, but probably far too early for it to affect my sleep, didn't get any big results. I would try the crystals, but as you mentioned it would be about scale, which I had to buy as well. Given it is described as pure it should be fine, especially if used in tea, with like 50mg or so. But otherwise I figured as well it'd be best not to risk it.
> 
> I'll see if I get any effects soon, which I hope



Thanks, StaySharp. :3 And ah, gotcha, gotcha.

Yeah, menthol has a short half-life so I would recommend either using it right before bed or with WBTB, too early could drastically reduce the effects, unless maybe if a large dose is used. Make sure you start with not too crazy of a dose too, since we aren't totally sure on how it works yet it's best to start small and find what works for you.

And I hope so too, I love it when people get results.  ::content::

----------


## Highlander

> Your drawings do always seem pretty psychedelic.  That is what it's like though, yeah. When my libido gets going that strong I start getting those types of images flooding my mind, and if I'm decently high it's actually so strong that they hit me like visions, good stuff.



You will have to see if you can draw or sketch some of those images yourself, if you get chance.

Thanks. I can't really say regarding the psychedelic experience itself which is a pity I suppose? (I would probably really intensify the colours, the shapes and the auras - I would have a real blast, etc!)
I can only imagine that it is incredible and intense. (Disclaimer: I know an 'experience' can go either way - Alcohol taught me that one!  ::shakehead:: ) 
I'd say I'm quite eclectic where I've always had a good imagination. 
I want to try and work with HI a bit more where I can create or 'see' new ideas. I only see HI of any real quality if I sleep on. Hopefully I can use Menthol to help with my HI and visual threshold.





> Oh man, I'd never seen that album cover before, I just looked it up. >w< That's really similar!  I was just going off of my imagination. X) Thanks, though!



Imagination is cool! They say great minds work alike.  :smiley: 


Tue Sept 25th 2012

*Dose:* 29.1mg x3 Cough drops.
*Side Effects:* Initial alertness.
*Sleep Duration:* Approx 2.5 hrs after WBTB/relaxation. 5.5 hrs beforehand.
*WBTB:* Yes 
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Average
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Average recall, etc. Depressing dream noted. HI imagery during late (early morning) semi-sleep.
(N.B: Relaxation routine probably could be classed as an ‘extended’ WBTB, as I was alert for some of the time.)

http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/robs...ent-etc-38976/

----------


## Highlander

Wed Sept 26th 2012

*Dose:* 19.4 mg x2 Cough drops.
*Side Effects:* Insomnia ***ABORTED***
*Sleep Duration:* 1.5 hrs after WBTB. 5.5 hrs beforehand.
*WBTB:* Yes (5.31  6.01 am)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Average
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* I could not get back to sleep due to being too alert, plus I had feelings of anxiety/worry. (The latter however not due to the Menthol.)
I got up at 7.30 am for breakfast and stayed up.


Thur Sept 27th 2012

*Dose:* 19.4 mg x2 Cough drops.
*Side Effects:* Initial alertness/Gripey stomach
*Sleep Duration:* Approx 2.75 hrs after WBTB. 6.5 hrs beforehand.
*WBTB:* Yes 
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Average
*Stability:* Typical
*Dream Comments:* Average recall, etc. Anxiety dream post-WBTB.

The Funeral place. Going out, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

I have now finished the whole pack off.  ::D:

----------


## StaySharp

No significant results yet, unfortunately. Have tested peppermint tea the last days and will continue doing so.
My sleep behaviour is still pretty screwed though, and that's just a too large factor right now.

----------


## Highlander

Good luck with it. I didn't have too much luck, although I had a sexy dream the other morning, and a few vivid ones. 

My sleep pattern is a bit erratic at the moment too, for example like with the Wed result; I just could not get back to sleep. As you say bad sleep doesn't help with dreaming.
I hope things settle down.  :smiley:

----------


## Alyzarin

> You will have to see if you can draw or sketch some of those images yourself, if you get chance.
> 
> Thanks. I can't really say regarding the psychedelic experience itself which is a pity I suppose? (I would probably really intensify the colours, the shapes and the auras - I would have a real blast, etc!)
> I can only imagine that it is incredible and intense. (Disclaimer: I know an 'experience' can go either way - Alcohol taught me that one! ) 
> I'd say I'm quite eclectic where I've always had a good imagination. 
> I want to try and work with HI a bit more where I can create or 'see' new ideas. I only see HI of any real quality if I sleep on. Hopefully I can use Menthol to help with my HI and visual threshold.



I might give it another shot in a while, I'm out of practice with drawing though. >w<

Incredible and intense is a good way to put it.  ::smitten::  What you've described - colors, shapes, auras - is what happens at low to doses. At medium to high doses the kinds of things you draw and much more start actually happening around you, everywhere, nonstop.  ::D:  And then you've got things like very high doses or DMT breakthroughs where you're completely transported to a different dimension made up of those abstract themes and hyperdimensional entities and landscapes. I've been thinking about it a lot again lately.  ::rolleyes:: 

You do have a great imagination though, I look forward to what else you'll have to show especially if you get better at using your HI.  :smiley:  It would be pretty cool if menthol did help with that!

----------


## StaySharp

Not sure if this is related but... I did drink a lot of tea those past days, 50% or so peppermint teas. And now that my recall seems to be coming back I couldn't help but notice that I had exceptionally dark dreams the past days where I've very often been under heavy assault by various weird and strong enemies. Well the invincibility which I'm always equiped with kicked in, so could only damage my fake health bar but it's an definitely unusual trend for me.

----------


## Highlander

> I might give it another shot in a while, I'm out of practice with drawing though. >w<
> 
> Incredible and intense is a good way to put it.  What you've described - colors, shapes, auras - is what happens at low to doses. At medium to high doses the kinds of things you draw and much more start actually happening around you, everywhere, nonstop.  And then you've got things like very high doses or DMT breakthroughs where you're completely transported to a different dimension made up of those abstract themes and hyperdimensional entities and landscapes. I've been thinking about it a lot again lately.



Yeah, you should give it a go, but don't waste a good trip worrying about a drawing, etc. I'm out of practice too, however with me I think the pre-learned (neural?) pathways can be accessed easily again. It's just that I lack motivation probably.
I shall give you a tip - keep all your drawings if you can. That way you can see your progress over time. The other spin off you get is that your drawings become 'visual memories', like a (visual) diary. I have got drawings going back since 1989. I even found a doodle last month which I did two decades ago where I made a reference (quotation) about lucid dreaming next to a small pen drawing of a naked woman - (TMI  ::D: !) but we won't go into that one. (From that I can make a good assumption that I knew about that sort of thing even then.) 
I can look at one of my old drawings where it will bring a chain of (mostly) good memories to the forefront. I do however remember one where it did the opposite, so if I ever see it then I remember what I was doing, where I was, the people and all the emotions at that time, what music I was playing, etc. although the intensity has gone, which is to be expected.
Probably if I had my time again then I would try something, however I wouldn't want anyone else reading this to get the wrong idea. I say that because I have no real responsibilities as such, I could do what I wanted, within reason, of course. 





> You do have a great imagination though, I look forward to what else you'll have to show especially if you get better at using your HI.  It would be pretty cool if menthol did help with that!



Thanks. I have always liked the HI state of mind. It is a highly creative state in its own right. I do get REALLY frustrated that some of the things I see, that I'm unable to do it justice by drawing it. As you point out that you yourself have seen and experienced amazing things via the brain (with a little help  :wink2: ) but when in 'reality' it is hard to comprehend, or put into words what we see, etc.
Hopefully there will be a place for the Menthol as it did seem to help me. I will have to try some visualisation techniques as well.
In summing up I think the brain/body is/are an amazing piece of engineering - there is still a lot we don't understand as of yet.  :smiley:

----------


## Alyzarin

> Not sure if this is related but... I did drink a lot of tea those past days, 50% or so peppermint teas. And now that my recall seems to be coming back I couldn't help but notice that I had exceptionally dark dreams the past days where I've very often been under heavy assault by various weird and strong enemies. Well the invincibility which I'm always equiped with kicked in, so could only damage my fake health bar but it's an definitely unusual trend for me.



It'd probably take a few more trials to be a little more certain about it, but it could be related. A few people have mentioned an increase in nightmarish dreams, especially the person whose thread inspired this experiment. They were getting all kinds of crazy and dark things, including something like watching a cat bite or rip another cat's head off, or something really twisted like that lol.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Yeah, you should give it a go, but don't waste a good trip worrying about a drawing, etc. I'm out of practice too, however with me I think the pre-learned (neural?) pathways can be accessed easily again. It's just that I lack motivation probably.
> I shall give you a tip - keep all your drawings if you can. That way you can see your progress over time. The other spin off you get is that your drawings become 'visual memories', like a (visual) diary. I have got drawings going back since 1989. I even found a doodle last month which I did two decades ago where I made a reference (quotation) about lucid dreaming next to a small pen drawing of a naked woman - (TMI !) but we won't go into that one. (From that I can make a good assumption that I knew about that sort of thing even then.) 
> I can look at one of my old drawings where it will bring a chain of (mostly) good memories to the forefront. I do however remember one where it did the opposite, so if I ever see it then I remember what I was doing, where I was, the people and all the emotions at that time, what music I was playing, etc. although the intensity has gone, which is to be expected.
> Probably if I had my time again then I would try something, however I wouldn't want anyone else reading this to get the wrong idea. I say that because I have no real responsibilities as such, I could do what I wanted, within reason, of course.



Thanks for the tip.  ::content::  I do a lot of drawings stored up in various folders and flash drives, but it'd take a long time to find them all and get them all ordered together, I just know that I have them lol. I do like looking at old drawings though, it can evoke a lot of emotions like you say.  :smiley:  I especially like some from back when I was tripping a lot, it shows me what my state of mind was like at the time. A lot of them are pretty chaotic.  ::roll:: 





> Thanks. I have always liked the HI state of mind. It is a highly creative state in its own right. I do get REALLY frustrated that some of the things I see, that I'm unable to do it justice by drawing it. As you point out that you yourself have seen and experienced amazing things via the brain (with a little help ) but when in 'reality' it is hard to comprehend, or put into words what we see, etc.
> Hopefully there will be a place for the Menthol as it did seem to help me. I will have to try some visualisation techniques as well.
> In summing up I think the brain/body is/are an amazing piece of engineering - there is still a lot we don't understand as of yet.



Yeah, I actually had an experience like that a few days ago while high. I'm thinking about trying to draw it anyway though. >w< I was staring at the tree in our backyard and suddenly everything looked extremely alien or digitized, though neither of those words is exactly right. I had the strangest feeling of passing through another dimension without ever leaving this one, and I could see reality in a totally new way that I can't really accurately describe now. The problem is, there was no actual change in vision at all, just the way I perceived it. X) However, I'm thinking I could probably still capture some of the feel of it if I drew it the right way....

The brain is indeed unbelievably amazing. The things that it can do are beyond incredible.  ::dreaming::

----------


## Highlander

As long as you know where the drawings are, and you can reference/look at them when you want then that would be great. I have a browse through all mine occasionally. Since I have kept a DJ then it has inspired me to draw more. (I wouldn't say I'm any better - but just more!)
Hoperfully when I get chance I will put some on a website, or something; to try to motivate me, as I'm a bit lazy. I don't have the passion for it like I used to. Maybe I was a bit more crazy back then, I dunno?  ::whyme:: 

The backyard experience sounds quite profound. It would be really cool to see a drawing/description which would reinforce your memories now of it, and over time.  :smiley:

----------


## Alyzarin

A website would be pretty cool.  :smiley:  You should link me to it some time if you do!  ::content::  I used to do that kind of stuff to motivate myself too, but not usually with drawings. I have a thing about making websites for some reason, it's fun. X)

It was pretty intense. I'll try to do a drawing at some point, if I can plot it out right.... I was reading through some other psychedelic cannabis experiences online and someone put part of the sensation very nicely. You know how if you picture the world before there was ever anything man-made, back in the ancient jungles and stuff, you can apply that sort of primal or unadulterated feel to things? Like that feeling that that is the world in its most natural state? Well, that's kind of how I saw the tree, and by extension the rest of the universe.... It's still so much more than that, I'll never be able to put it into words exactly, but it was like everything was filled with a sort of raw power showing just how intense and intricate this reality is. I could see the tree and this world and everything else as just another tiny point in the inconceivably complex mathematical pattern that is the universe. And I could feel it too, all moving with me and through me. It was a good high.  ::rolleyes::

----------


## Highlander

That raw primal/gaia experience must have been something. With the Universe and nature, you will find mathematics based on the Golden (Phi) Ratio. You find this ratio in the human body, (as in Leonardo Da Vinci's drawing) geometry, nature, music, etc. Amazing stuff!

Yes I will try and sort some pics out, even if I do a basic picture blog rather than anything too complicated, and scan some images in. I will either give you a link, or put it in with my sig.  :smiley:

----------


## dutchraptor

SInce I will be wetting up a steam distillery one of the next few days I will be posting quite soon again. However this time I'm completely changing my plan, no longer I am I taking it in tea form but I will try take it at around 60mg of essential oil mixed with a pint of water, this should have roughly the same ingredients as the tea but it should be far more strong, probably over 2-3 times as much. Can't wait to try it again  ::D:

----------


## DocHoliday

It has worked for me.  Extremely vivid lucid dreams

----------


## paigeyemps

I experimented with menthol balls before bed for some time, and I always got weird, vivid, and mostly dark-themed dreams. Some of them led to lucidity even.  ::D:

----------


## Alyzarin

> I experimented with menthol balls before bed for some time, and I always got weird, vivid, and mostly dark-themed dreams. Some of them led to lucidity even.



It's interesting that you mention the dark themes, a few people seem to get that consistently with it. :O I'm glad I don't get them personally, but I think it'd be cool to see what they're like. >w< The original thread we got the idea from mentions some pretty messed up dreams lol.

----------


## Highlander

I never really get 'nightmares' as such, whether I'm using Menthol or not. Even my dream journal I think has only a half a dozen in the 'nightmare' classification folder out of well over a hundred dream entry pages.
Even most of those entries I made relate to 'anxiety' or a 'sinister' type themes, rather than being outright scary.

Maybe I'm such a 'happy and balanced' person?   ::D:  
(A polygraph test at this point = FAIL.)

----------


## dutchraptor

Okay so I distilled the peppermint extract which went alrite but not as great as I hoped. Anyways the first result I got was that my dreams were incredibly complex and storylike. It was also filled with tonnes of surreal and magical scenes, only non-everyday stuff.
I was part of a highly trained team which killed kidnappers and brought back the kids to whoever paid us. We only dealed with dimension jumping kidnappers and had to go through a series of worlds and dimensions to find them. We went from forests to chinese castles to magical old ruins which contained special metal boxes which allowed for trans-dimensional travel or communication. What was amazing was that no one except for the top of the heirachy knew the extra dimensions even existed and I even proved it to our contracter through a highly complex loop of multiple trans-dimensional boxes which would allow me to see through the fabric of space and enter the contracters brain and I was able read his thoughts. It was.....amazing to say the least.

----------


## Highlander

^ Did you ever watch this TV show as a kid?





 :Shades wink:

----------


## dutchraptor

Hahahha no I didn't, but it shares a scary amount of similarities to my dreams  :tongue2:  I'm pretty sure there was actually background music playing in my dream aswell now that I think back.

----------


## Highlander

I didn't want to come over as being disrespectful, but when I read your dream article above then it did make me think of that program; especially the multi-dimensional and searching aspects of it.
Awesome dream however - much better than mine, as I'm going through a really dry patch at the moment.

Good luck with the Peppermint/Menthol extraction BTW. What dosage are we looking at?

----------


## dutchraptor

> I didn't want to come over as being disrespectful, but when I read your dream article above then it did make me think of that program; especially the multi-dimensional and searching aspects of it.
> Awesome dream however - much better than mine, as I'm going through a really dry patch at the moment.
> 
> Good luck with the Peppermint/Menthol extraction BTW. What dosage are we looking at?



I really wouldn't know, but I'd estimate around 30-40mg. I would have wanted a way higher dose but all the variables for the distillation were wrong. I used watermint instead of peppermint, I used flowering mint, I picked them during the midday. I basically couldn't have got a more inefficient harvest  :Cheeky:

----------


## Alyzarin

> Okay so I distilled the peppermint extract which went alrite but not as great as I hoped. Anyways the first result I got was that my dreams were incredibly complex and storylike. It was also filled with tonnes of surreal and magical scenes, only non-everyday stuff.
> I was part of a highly trained team which killed kidnappers and brought back the kids to whoever paid us. We only dealed with dimension jumping kidnappers and had to go through a series of worlds and dimensions to find them. We went from forests to chinese castles to magical old ruins which contained special metal boxes which allowed for trans-dimensional travel or communication. What was amazing was that no one except for the top of the heirachy knew the extra dimensions even existed and I even proved it to our contracter through a highly complex loop of multiple trans-dimensional boxes which would allow me to see through the fabric of space and enter the contracters brain and I was able read his thoughts. It was.....amazing to say the least.



Oh my god dutch, you have no idea how happy this makes me.  ::smitten::  THIS is the kappaergic madness I was hoping for when I first started trying menthol, I love it, love it, love it.  :armflap:  Traveling through dimensions, seeing through the fabric of space, entering brains, omgomgomg.... It's like a freaking salvia trip, which also works through the kappa-opioid receptor.  ::D:  ::D:  ::D: 

I'm so happy right now.  :Bliss: 

 :Clairity's Hug: 

I need to take more menthol.  :Oh noes:

----------


## dutchraptor

> Oh my god dutch, you have no idea how happy this makes me.  THIS is the kappaergic madness I was hoping for when I first started trying menthol, I love it, love it, love it.  Traveling through dimensions, seeing through the fabric of space, entering brains, omgomgomg.... It's like a freaking salvia trip, which also works through the kappa-opioid receptor. 
> 
> I'm so happy right now. 
> 
> 
> 
> I need to take more menthol.



Hahaha wow  ::D:   ::D:   ::D:  now that you mention it the part where I saw through the fabric of space sounds very very similar to the experience one of my friends had with salvia, seeing the energy of the unniverse, shit like that.  ::banana::  I'll try again tonight  :smiley:   :smiley: 

Btw that was a hilarious post to read XD wish I could like that multiple times to show how much I'm laughing.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Hahaha wow    now that you mention it the part where I saw through the fabric of space sounds very very similar to the experience one of my friends had with salvia, seeing the energy of the unniverse, shit like that.  I'll try again tonight  
> 
> Btw that was a hilarious post to read XD wish I could like that multiple times to show how much I'm laughing.



Yep yep, that's what it's like.  ::movingmrgreen::  And salvia also has some dopaminergic action, which is the most critical system involved in dreams. :3 My biggest hope for menthol was that it would make dreams more psychedelic because of this! I'm so happy that you had this dream.  ::biggrin:: 

Hehehe, don't underestimate how excited I get about mind-bending experiences.  ::happyme::

----------


## dutchraptor

Firstly I have to say that my dreams weren't as wacky as before but there was a heavy theme of sex and slightly darkness or just bad atmosphere.

Alyzarin I just re-read the OP and holycrap that was amazing, I've been really researching lately and your answer just blew me away. Btw I have never taken drugs so I don't actually know how they really feel. After reading the OP I'm just seeing more and more positive results from the menthol. Have you ever posted your idea's on any other forum? (Drugs or biology forum etc)

----------


## Alyzarin

Haha, thanks, dutch.  ::content::  I haven't posted this on any other forum, no. I didn't think it really applied much to the other forums I'm familiar with since I was only interested in menthol for dream-related reasons. I'm glad you like it, but remember that some of it is just a theory, too.  :tongue2:  Since then I've come up with some more potential (possibly coexistent) explanations that could be contributing, and it's possible that all or none of them are significant factors, it could be something totally unknown.

By the way, does your experience of seeing through the fabric of space sound anything like Wolfwood's experience from way back on page one? In response to me asking what he meant by saying his vision was "strange", this here:





> It was full of artifacts, floating particles etc. As if my vision was so clear that I could see the molecules in the air (dream molecules, of course ).



One of the other things I was thinking that might be contributing to menthol's effects is activation of the kappa-opioid receptors in the visual cortex, they're located in layer V pyramidal cells just like other psychedelically visual receptors like 5-HT2A, CB1, and GABA(A). This area of the brain feeds into the extrastriate cortex which turns the data into realistic structures, and interestingly the visual cortex is basically silent during REM but the extrastriate cortex is very active. I'm sure it's just getting it's information from somewhere else, but it's possible that part of the way menthol increases the complexity of dream scenes, particularly in abstract ways, is by reactivating the visual cortex and increasing the information stream to the extrastriate cortex.

Another thing that I've been thinking about is the possibility of high dynorphin levels in certain areas of the brain but not others during REM sleep. It's been a while since I looked into it so I can't remember what exactly those areas could be right this second, but it's _possible_ that if menthol is a weak enough partial agonist it could be increasing kappa-opioid activity in areas of the brain inactive during REM (like the visual cortex) but decreasing it in areas that are normally highly active with dynorphin by means of displacing it from those receptors and activating them to a lower degree. Since dynorphins often have the mechanism of opposing dopamine levels, that could lead to higher dopaminergic effects in those areas of the brain. And depending on where that applied, that could lead to things like increased sexual behavior. In fact just now while writing that the caudate nucleus came to mind, that part of the brain has been linked to visual beauty and romantic love (according to Wikipedia) and I know it has dynorphin-containing cells and dopamine receptors, and I could definitely link those two things to menthol.... More research is required, as usual. >w<

The brain seems to be basically like a dream or a drug-induced hallucination. The closer you look, the more complex it gets.

So, what are you researching?  :smiley:

----------


## dutchraptor

Wait I thought menthol was a full agonist? isn't there different effects between the two.
Basically just researching the effects of drugs and how they effect various parts of the brain, and looking how you can adjust and make certain drugs. The more I read the more intrested I get, I just keep adding extra parts to my knowledge and now I'm finally at a stage where I could slightly comprehend your OP and similar articles  :tongue2:

----------


## Alyzarin

I remember reading that it was a partial agonist, but that may be wrong. I haven't looked into it in a while. There really isn't a major difference in effect between agonists and partial agonists though, except that partial agonists don't reach the same potential that full agonists do, and if they're weak enough they can act as antagonists instead at certain doses (though many don't).

Ah, gotcha, gotcha.  :tongue2:  Well that's cool.  ::content::  Yeah, it really reels you in, I went down that road for quite a while lol. Now I'm to the point where it's become difficult to find information I don't already know without doing very specific searches, which basically means I have to piece a lot of things together myself and go from there, and rinse and repeat. I've been taking a break recently, as my interest in doing drugs wanes so does my interested in researching them, heh. I'm getting more interested in natural highs again.

----------


## dutchraptor

I couldn't see any particles or stuff like that, all I remember was that the majority of energy radiated from everything was a vibrant green light that was capable of slightly bending, in general it was pretty smooth looking. I only felt a slight mind expansion sensation which was a shame but the fact that it even happened was amazing, but I have always been really being intrested into fantasy stuff and Im always making concept art so I'm not surprised it was in my dream.
I personally find natural highs more intresting that drugs, I love to explore the human limits but it can be tiring sometimes with all the work invloved.

----------


## Alyzarin

Ah, that sounds pretty cool! I'd definitely like to have an experience like that.  :smiley: 

I think they both have their good parts, but I usually prefer natural highs to drugs. The only significant exceptions are hallucinogens, most importantly psychedelics and weed. Things that blend dream/astral experiences into reality and cause ego dissolution still take the cake for me.  ::smitten::  But I'm interested in just about every kind of natural high, particularly those involving OBEs or some delirium.  ::rolleyes::

----------


## StaySharp

I haven't posted here for some time but I did drink a lot of peppermint tea the last weeks, quite honestly though nothing much happened, I also had some menthol candy though I couldn't find out their concentration, and I didn't eat them before sleeping anyway. As it always is the case the last months though, I guess the main reason I can't see any effects is that I still can't sleep properly and that I only have about 2 dreams a day maximum. Given my usual recall that says enough I guess. Mayb I'll have some results to share some time in the future.

----------


## Alyzarin

> I haven't posted here for some time but I did drink a lot of peppermint tea the last weeks, quite honestly though nothing much happened, I also had some menthol candy though I couldn't find out their concentration, and I didn't eat them before sleeping anyway. As it always is the case the last months though, I guess the main reason I can't see any effects is that I still can't sleep properly and that I only have about 2 dreams a day maximum. Given my usual recall that says enough I guess. Mayb I'll have some results to share some time in the future.



Did you drink the tea before bed? The candies definitely won't do anything if you don't eat them close to sleep, menthol has a short half-life. It could be that it just won't do much for you too, everyone's different, but I would agree that for your regular recall that seems pretty low.  :tongue2:  I hope goes better for you in further attempts.  :smiley:  Peppermint tea does have some well-studied effects so I'd imagine it should do something at least if you're in a good state of mind for it. Have you noticed increased memory or anything like that?

----------


## StaySharp

Since my general sleep quality and recall are totally different than usual I can't quite pin down whether the tea has some effect or not. And I usually drink it during the day as well as right before sleeping.

----------


## Highlander

I'm really tempted to go out and buy a pack of good old Honey and Lemon Lockets for old times sake after this morning's lucid dream broke my dry spell.

----------


## Highlander

Wed Nov 28th 2012

*Dose:* 48.5mg Honey and Lemon Cough drops (x5)
*Side Effects:* Gripey stomach/wind
*Sleep Duration:* Over 6 hrs/ 3.25 hrs after ( Total = 9.25 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (0.5 hrs)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Very Good
*Stability:* N/A
*Dream Comments:* Strong Hypnagogia. Sexual dream & erection - Memorable. Good recall of other dreams also. Anxiety themes noted. Wow.  ::rolleyes::  

Menthol - Sex entity dream, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Alyzarin

> *Dream Comments:* Strong Hypnagogia. *Sexual dream & erection* - Memorable. Good recall of other dreams also. Anxiety themes noted. Wow.



Oh, menthol.  ::chuckle:: 

I'm trying to force myself to not smoke weed for a little while so I can start having consistent recall and vividness again, so I might get back into menthol at some point. I have had a devastating lack of sexual dreams lately.  ::shakehead2::

----------


## Highlander

I thought that I'd give it a go after breaking my dry spell earlier on this week. I have a little more time to concentrate as I have been busy as of late.
I don't get many sexual dreams myself, but when I do, I do. If you know what I mean. (I didn't recite that dream to my GF either  ::chuckle:: )
I'm sure you will pick up your recall and the frequency of the sexy dreams will increase no doubt. 
Good luck.

----------


## Highlander

Mon Dec 3rd 2012

*Dose:* 48.5mg Honey and Lemon Cough drops (x5)
*Side Effects:* Gripey stomach/wind
*Sleep Duration:* Over 6 hrs/ 3.75 hrs after ( Total = 9.75 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (0.75 hrs)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Very strong
*Stability:* N/A
*Dream Comments:* Hypnagogia easily attained. Violent theme. Vivid dream trip hallucinations and FAs  memorable. Sexual dream & erection afterwards. Good recall. Flashback noted. WTF!

N.B: (Technically dreams result in erections whether the content is sexual or not, hence the afterwards note.) 

Menthol  Exam fight. Hallucinations. Fondling GF, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

TL;DR -  :Eek:

----------


## Alyzarin

> Mon Dec 3rd 2012
> 
> *Dose:* 48.5mg Honey and Lemon Cough drops (x5)
> *Side Effects:* Gripey stomach/wind
> *Sleep Duration:* Over 6 hrs/ 3.75 hrs after ( Total = 9.75 hrs)
> *WBTB:* Yes (0.75 hrs)
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* Very strong
> *Stability:* N/A
> ...



That made me so happy to read.  ::lol::  The dream hallucinations sound very fun!  ::D:

----------


## Highlander

Yet if you remember, it was me that scoffed (to myself) a bit when people said they were getting weird effects and sexual dreams - oh well, it looks like I stand corrected.  :Oops: 
The 'trip' effects were like crazy hypnagogia gone mad, but in a dream itself. When I saw that plant floating on its own, and then the rest starting to move, then that sh*t me up a little.
You have to remember that I'm looking at this from a point of being a person who has never touched any drug (with the exception of Alcohol and painkillers) so I would like to think that helps in regard to testing. There can be a few variables that can affect the possible outcome of things. Hence that is why I try to put as much info down as possible, if you see what I mean. I dunno? 
I'm thinking of trying a whole pack, but I will have to wait for the remainder to be completely out of my system, and when I haven't got too much to do next week. I will probably pick a quiet day when I haven't got anything on my mind, etc. I might do a bit of a test (whilst awake) to see if I get any (adverse?) effects, or reactions in the day beforehand?

Aly. BTW, what is the rough half-life of the Menthol compound, out of interest. Apologies if you have answered this on a really early thread. I recall you saying that it was a short one which lessened the effects if it was taken too soon.

Thanks for reading. I'm glad you liked it. I hope you and your dreams are progressing well.

----------


## Highlander

Mon Dec 10th 2012

*Dose:* 97 mg (x10)Honey and Lemon Cough drops (11.26pm x5)+ (5.00am x5)
*Side Effects:* Stomach wind / slight flatulence
*Sleep Duration:* Over 5 hrs / 3.5 hrs after ( Total = 8.5 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (0.75 hrs)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Average to good
*Stability:* N/A
*Dream Comments:* OBE like dream? Inertia and FA  memorable. Erection afterwards. Good recall. Bizarre sex dream. WTF!

N.B: (Technically dreams result in erections whether the content is sexual or not, hence the afterwards note.)  ::rolleyes:: 

Menthol  Inertia/FA. Pillowcase sex? WTF! - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Alyzarin

> Yet if you remember, it was me that scoffed (to myself) a bit when people said they were getting weird effects and sexual dreams - oh well, it looks like I stand corrected. 
> The 'trip' effects were like crazy hypnagogia gone mad, but in a dream itself. When I saw that plant floating on its own, and then the rest starting to move, then that sh*t me up a little.
> You have to remember that I'm looking at this from a point of being a person who has never touched any drug (with the exception of Alcohol and painkillers) so I would like to think that helps in regard to testing. There can be a few variables that can affect the possible outcome of things. Hence that is why I try to put as much info down as possible, if you see what I mean. I dunno? 
> I'm thinking of trying a whole pack, but I will have to wait for the remainder to be completely out of my system, and when I haven't got too much to do next week. I will probably pick a quiet day when I haven't got anything on my mind, etc. I might do a bit of a test (whilst awake) to see if I get any (adverse?) effects, or reactions in the day beforehand?
> 
> Aly. BTW, what is the rough half-life of the Menthol compound, out of interest. Apologies if you have answered this on a really early thread. I recall you saying that it was a short one which lessened the effects if it was taken too soon.
> 
> Thanks for reading. I'm glad you liked it. I hope you and your dreams are progressing well.



Yeah, it is cool that you were able to get such effects from it. I'm very happy with the way menthol is turning out.  ::rolleyes::  Well, if you do try a whole pack then have fun with that.  :tongue2:  Make sure the dose isn't too huge though. How many come in your packs?

The half-life is about an hour, and interestingly maybe closer to 40 minutes in the form of mint candy. I'm not really sure what implication that has on the cough drops or tea.... So yeah, definitely short enough that you don't want to take it too early on.

And thanks.  ::content::  I've been having some interesting lucids recently, though the last couple I still need to write down. I got DC puppetting down perfectly, I was able to talk and move through a DC as if I was doing it myself, including with more than one at the same time. Fun times.  ::D:

----------


## Highlander

Thanks Aly.

The half-life info. is interesting as it looks like I would get the most benefit from the Menthol just after a WBTB session, rather than before.
In the ones I get then there are 10 cough drops per pack = 97 mg of Menthol.
According to the label then you are warned not to consume any more than 3 packets in 24 hours.

DC's can be a bit strange. I met an interesting one this morning.  :Cheeky: 

Good to hear about the lucid's BTW. I seem to be picking up too, I do need to work on my FA's and general awakenings, etc.
I'm going to have a super-stressful anxiety fuelled month ahead (or longer?) so I might have to put my dreams on the back burner for now which is a pity.  :Sad:

----------


## gab

Had some *mint tea* before bed. 

In a non-lucid I took some drugs. (never ever took anything IWL). Woman is telling me, now I'm gonna start seeing things and my mom  turned into a grey alien. Before I asked her if that's her true form, my WL cat woke me up.

Not sure if this is from the tea, if there was enough menthol in it at all, or if it was placebo (I have read the "Plants for LDing" thread yesterday).

Will try again tonight.

----------


## Highlander

Thur Dec 20th 2012

*Dose:* 97 mg (x10) Honey and Lemon Cough drops
*Side Effects:* Stomach gas / wind 
*Sleep Duration:* Over 4.75 hrs / over 4.25 hrs after ( Total = Over 9.0 hrs)
*WBTB:* Yes (Over 1 hr approx)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Average to good
*Stability:* N/A
*Dream Comments:* Good recall even after waking. Incubation. Hypnagogia.

Menthol during WBTB  The Cranberries, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


Information from the side of the pack.

Per lozenge: 
Menthol = 9.7 mg
Eucalyptol = 9.2 mg
Total sugars = 4.1 mg

Overdose of Menthol may cause severe stomach upset, feeling or being sick, giddiness, shaking, drowsiness.

Other ingredients:
Sugar, Glucose syrup, Honey, Glycerol.

(Do not use if you have a sugar intolerance or are sensitive to any of the other ingredients.)

Natural flavourings: (Lemon, Grapefruit and Lime oils. Lemon flavour,) Vitamin C, Citric acid.
Natural colour, (Betacarotene)

Possible side effects:
High doses of Glycerol can cause headaches or stomach upset.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Thanks Aly.
> 
> The half-life info. is interesting as it looks like I would get the most benefit from the Menthol just after a WBTB session, rather than before.
> In the ones I get then there are 10 cough drops per pack = 97 mg of Menthol.
> According to the label then you are warned not to consume any more than 3 packets in 24 hours.
> 
> DC's can be a bit strange. I met an interesting one this morning. 
> 
> Good to hear about the lucid's BTW. I seem to be picking up too, I do need to work on my FA's and general awakenings, etc.
> I'm going to have a super-stressful anxiety fuelled month ahead (or longer?) so I might have to put my dreams on the back burner for now which is a pity.



Actually, from what I can tell so far it may work better before bed. Considering that we don't know for certain how it works, it's possible that a rebound effect is responsible for the increase in dreams. Salvia has an even shorter duration of action than menthol, but it still makes me dreams crazy when I smoke it before bed. It's hard to say though, test away and find out!

What's wrong with this month?  :Sad: 





> Had some *mint tea* before bed. 
> 
> In a non-lucid I took some drugs. (never ever took anything IWL). Woman is telling me, now I'm gonna start seeing things and my mom  turned into a grey alien. Before I asked her if that's her true form, my WL cat woke me up.
> 
> Not sure if this is from the tea, if there was enough menthol in it at all, or if it was placebo (I have read the "Plants for LDing" thread yesterday).
> 
> Will try again tonight.



That's pretty funny.  ::chuckle::  Have you had any more success with it yet?

----------


## Highlander

(Quote) Alyzarin: 



> Actually, from what I can tell so far it may work better before bed. Considering that we don't know for certain how it works, it's possible that a rebound effect is responsible for the increase in dreams. Salvia has an even shorter duration of action than menthol, but it still makes me dreams crazy when I smoke it before bed. It's hard to say though, test away and find out!



Hmm, interesting?
I tended to get good results after WBTB.
I must confess there has only been 1 or two times I have tried taking the Menthol before retiring to bed, but I have coupled it with taking it at WBTB as well, so it is a bit inconclusive with me, so far.
I would like to test that one out myself.

With Menthol, I have seemed to notice my hypnagogic levels increase (after WBTB.) I'm keen to see if I have a better HI threshold during the waking DAY! [/QUOTE]






> What's wrong with this month?



It is a long story!
It is going to be a busy month for me. It is just bad on so many levels - trust me! Plus Christmas is here - (Everyone runs around like headless chickens, etc.)
I would like to say more regarding the true reasons, but it would be so TL;DR even the RRCC would kick it out. lol.  :Sad:

----------


## Alyzarin

> Hmm, interesting?
> I tended to get good results after WBTB.
> I must confess there has only been 1 or two times I have tried taking the Menthol before retiring to bed, but I have coupled it with taking it at WBTB as well, so it is a bit inconclusive with me, so far.
> I would like to test that one out myself.
> 
> With Menthol, I have seemed to notice my hypnagogic levels increase (after WBTB.) I'm keen to see if I have a better HI threshold during the waking DAY!



Well, it could be that the effectiveness changes depending on how sensitive you are, what your main desire out of it is, _and_ when you take it. For example, any direct increase in visual activity is unlikely to come from a rebound effect, but could definitely come from kappa activation itself, so if increased hypnagogia is your goal then it would make sense that a WBTB could be the better choice! But it's possible that things like the sexual effects may be more likely if it's taken before going to bed. Like I said, it's all unknown at this point. Just go with what works.  :smiley: 





> It is a long story!
> It is going to be a busy month for me. It is just bad on so many levels - trust me! Plus Christmas is here - (Everyone runs around like headless chickens, etc.)
> I would like to say more regarding the true reasons, but it would be so TL;DR even the RRCC would kick it out. lol.



Well I'm sorry to hear that!  ::blue::  I hope it goes at least as smoothly as it can for you, then!  ::hug::

----------


## Highlander

Sounds interesting, I will have to try it before bed as well then!  :Cheeky: 
Hopefully, when things settle down in the New Year, then I can try the odd experiment or two.
The WBTB did seem consistent (regarding HI) for me. (I do want to do more on this, etc.)

I will be 'off air' so to speak for the next few days (due to family committments, etc.) so I will not be using the computer, etc. Even the DJ will be just ticking over, if I get chance.

Thanks Aly. 
Hopefully things will get sorted, given time.


Have a Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year!  ::breakitdown::

----------


## Highlander

Mon Dec 31st 2012

*Dose:* 48.5 mg (x5) Honey and Lemon Cough drops / 20 mg (x2) Vitamin B6 
*Side Effects:* Slight stomach gas initially
*Sleep Duration:* Over 4.5 hrs / approx 3.0 hrs after ( Total = Over 7.5 hrs excl. relaxation exercise)
*WBTB:* Yes (38 min)
*Lucid:* YES
*Vividness:* Excellent
*Stability:* Excellent
*Dream Comments:* A crisp DILD. Surreal scenes with bright, vivid colours and textures. High level of control and stability.

(N.B: I did take a codeine based painkiller yesterday, about an hour before retiring to bed.) 

Menthol  Vivid DILD, giant pigeons, healing prayer - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

I even had a legitimate reason to use the lozenges  I had a sore throat/cold coming on!

----------


## Xanous

Hey, so it seems like a lot of people dropped out of this thread. I stopped because I wasn't obtaining lucidity but I have been thinking of ways to mix with my other lucid aids. I'd like to keep things fresh so that my body doesn't get used to any one thing.

Whats the overall conclusion here? Is there any idea about time to peek plasma levels or half-life elimination. (sorry this is a huge thread or I'd try to read it all)

It seems like menthol would make a good companion to my other aids. I may start working this in again.

----------


## dutchraptor

> Hey, so it seems like a lot of people dropped out of this thread. I stopped because I wasn't obtaining lucidity but I have been thinking of ways to mix with my other lucid aids. I'd like to keep things fresh so that my body doesn't get used to any one thing.
> 
> Whats the overall conclusion here? Is there any idea about time to peek plasma levels or half-life elimination. (sorry this is a huge thread or I'd try to read it all)
> 
> It seems like menthol would make a good companion to my other aids. I may start working this in again.



No we never came to a conclusion on peek plasma levels, I think the most significant effect we've seen is that menthol seems to produce similar effects to salvia divinorium, which is what alyzarin was going for. I personally have alot of wacky and fantasy rich dreams so it was hard to see that differences mint tea caused but it seems like the dreams almost always contained more sexual themes/ grimy dark themes/ execessively bright,colourfull and fantasy like themes than usual.
It's definetely worth the shot and I can say it works but you'll have to see for yourself.

----------


## Xanous

Oh Salvia divinorum.... Interesting. Well, I will post if I work start working it in again. Lucid or not its still interesting.

----------


## Highlander

Quote Xanous: 



> Hey, so it seems like a lot of people dropped out of this thread. I stopped because I wasn't obtaining lucidity but I have been thinking of ways to mix with my other lucid aids. I'd like to keep things fresh so that my body doesn't get used to any one thing.



I generally lurk, and I have been known to have the odd lozenge, or two... or three on the quiet.  ::D: 

It is a good idea you have Xanous regarding keeping your body (and thus mind) fresh, when in regard to taking supplements, etc.

----------


## Alyzarin

*pops in*

Here's something I just found that you guys might find interesting.  ::rolleyes:: 

Dynorphins regulate fear memory: from mice to men.

Basically, what it's saying is that dynorphin, which works through kappa-opioid receptors just like menthol, is important in getting rid of fear. Furthermore, it suggests that dynorphins enhance communication between the ventromedial prefrontal cortex and the amygdala. The amygdala is, I'm fairly certain, the part of the brain that loads our schemas and creates the dream world by stimulating the hippocampus. It's also largely our emotional mind. What's interesting is that, as far as I'm aware, when it comes to the prefrontal cortex it's the dorsal part that shuts down during regular, non-lucid dreams (and presumably reactivates during lucids), while the ventral part stays active, and the dorsal PFC is responsible for rational thought while the ventral PFC handles emotional thought. That's why in a regular dream emotions can be so intense without any logical input, and this would suggest that dynorphin enhances that. In addition, the amygdala has been implicated especially in aggression, sexual behavior, and euphoria (in relation to things like depression). Definitely the first things that come to mind are (a) the dark themed dreams/nightmares of menthol particularly like in the thread that spawned this one, (b) the sexual dreams, of course, and (c) the pure happiness dreams that Kaomea experienced. Couple that with the loss of fear that would translate into more confidence, and it seems to pull together well for me....

Anyway, that's all I can say for now, I need to head out!

----------


## Highlander

Thurs Feb 21st 2013

*Dose:* 5-HTP 50 mg (Bed) 29.1mg Cough drops (WBTB)
*Side Effects:* Gripey stomach
*Sleep Duration:* 6 hrs before/3 hrs after
*WBTB:* Yes (31 min)
*Lucid:* YES
*Vividness:* Average/Good
*Stability:* Average
*Dream Comments:* WBTB Incubation. Bizarre lucid transition type dream (DILD) coupled with a sexual theme and post hypnagogic imagery.
The transition was fairly memorable, although in hindsight I’m glad that it was written down at the time.

5-HTP and Menthol  (DILD) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


"What, you took... supplements! - On a 'school' day!!!"  :Eek:

----------


## Alucinor XIII

> Whats the overall conclusion here? Is there any idea about time to peek plasma levels or half-life elimination. (sorry this is a huge thread or I'd try to read it all)
> .



"The half-life of menthol glucuronide after oral menthol dosing is about 50 minutes in plasma and 74 minutes in urine, although there appears to be a longer terminal half-life, most likely due to the slow release of the highly lipid]soluble menthol from body tissues and/or due to enterohepatic recirculation (Gelal 1999)."

-http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AdvisoryCommittees/CommitteesMeetingMaterials/TobaccoProductsScientificAdvisoryCommittee/UCM244975.pdf

I read that the half life was 50 minutes in a few other places, too. So, I'm not sure what effect the menthol itself can really be having, because people seem to be reporting effects on their dreams when they've taken menthol before bed...which means that the menthol would be lasting around 6 times longer than its supposed.

I don't know what the metabolites of the menthol are, though. If menthol really is having an effect on dreams, it his to be indirectly via metabolites, or activating some other process in the body.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Thurs Feb 21st 2013
> 
> *Dose:* 5-HTP 50 mg (Bed) 29.1mg Cough drops (WBTB)
> *Side Effects:* Gripey stomach
> *Sleep Duration:* 6 hrs before/3 hrs after
> *WBTB:* Yes (31 min)
> *Lucid:* YES
> *Vividness:* Average/Good
> *Stability:* Average
> ...



On a school day!?  :Oh noes:  You madman!

Another success!  :Party:  It sounds like it was getting interesting in the end there. X) That's intense!





> "The half-life of menthol glucuronide after oral menthol dosing is about 50 minutes in plasma and 74 minutes in urine, although there appears to be a longer terminal half-life, most likely due to the slow release of the highly lipid]soluble menthol from body tissues and/or due to enterohepatic recirculation (Gelal 1999)."
> 
> -http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AdvisoryCommittees/CommitteesMeetingMaterials/TobaccoProductsScientificAdvisoryCommittee/UCM244975.pdf
> 
> I read that the half life was 50 minutes in a few other places, too. So, I'm not sure what effect the menthol itself can really be having, because people seem to be reporting effects on their dreams when they've taken menthol before bed...which means that the menthol would be lasting around 6 times longer than its supposed.
> 
> I don't know what the metabolites of the menthol are, though. If menthol really is having an effect on dreams, it his to be indirectly via metabolites, or activating some other process in the body.



As I think I might have mentioned before, I'm willing to believe that it's some sort of post-effect reaction for when it's taken before bed. Smoking salvia before bed can have profound effects on dreams as well, and its active chemical, salvinorin A, works through the kappa-opioid receptor too and has an even shorter half-life than menthol.

----------


## dutchraptor

::D:   ::D:   ::D:  A few more months and I can start distilling some peppermint oil again. The first time didn't go to well because I did everything wrong but now there is a lot of time and I can improve on my previous distillation design.

----------


## Xanous

Good info Alucinor XIII. I've only noticed any effect with WBTB. 

Also I should mention I took 36.4mg menthol in cough drop form during WBTB a few nights ago. I had a very VIVID and fun NLD with no side effects.

----------


## Alyzarin

> A few more months and I can start distilling some peppermint oil again. The first time didn't go to well because I did everything wrong but now there is a lot of time and I can improve on my previous distillation design.



I can't wait to hear how this goes! It should provide some intriguing results.  ::movingmrgreen:: 





> Good info Alucinor XIII. I've only noticed any effect with WBTB. 
> 
> Also I should mention I took 36.4mg menthol in cough drop form during WBTB a few nights ago. I had a very VIVID and fun NLD with no side effects.



Any particular themes or was it just really enjoyable?  :tongue2:  (Keep in mind that even an unusual amount of just happiness and contentedness has been consistently noted before!)

----------


## Xanous

> Any particular themes or was it just really enjoyable?  (Keep in mind that even an unusual amount of just happiness and contentedness has been consistently noted before!)



Vivid and action packed with a sense of adventure. I was nearly lucid at one point. I Am Hobbit - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Highlander

Fri Feb 22nd 2013

*Dose:* H & L cough drops (x3)= 29.1mg (WBTB)
*Side Effects:* Generally ok/light sleep
*Sleep Duration:* 5.75 hrs before/2.5 hrs after
*WBTB:* Yes (46 min inc. cat nap)
*Lucid:* YES
*Vividness:* Very good/Excellent
*Stability:* Very good
*Dream Comments:* Very strong inertia beforehand. Very good stability during DILD. Nice and crisp visuals. Clear thoughts. A good level of control up to a point. Sinister overtone at one stage.

Menthol on a school day! (DILD) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Alyzarin

> Vivid and action packed with a sense of adventure. I was nearly lucid at one point. I Am Hobbit - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views



Nice! Going to read it now.  ::D: 





> Fri Feb 22nd 2013
> 
> *Dose:* H & L cough drops (x3)= 29.1mg (WBTB)
> *Side Effects:* Generally ok/light sleep
> *Sleep Duration:* 5.75 hrs before/2.5 hrs after
> *WBTB:* Yes (46 min inc. cat nap)
> *Lucid:* YES
> *Vividness:* Very good/Excellent
> *Stability:* Very good
> *Dream Comments:* Very strong inertia beforehand. Very good stability during DILD. Nice and crisp visuals. Clear thoughts. A good level of control up to a point. Sinister overtone at one stage.



Woo! Man, it really works for you a lot. Are these your first times using menthol again for a while?





> *Menthol on a school day!* (DILD) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views



You crazy son of a bitch! You'll kill us all with your reckless ways!

----------


## Highlander

> Woo! Man, it really works for you a lot. Are these your first times using menthol again for a while?!



Yes, I think I took some on back end of last year. I had an excellent dream on the 31st of Dec 2012. I haven't used it much this year so far.
I do seem to get a more vivid dream from using it at times, although I do think that my WBTB and relaxation routine seems to help me.






> You crazy son of a bitch! You'll kill us all with your reckless ways!



Oh no.. who killed Kenny?  :Oh noes: 

I still have a third of a pack left,  :Cheeky:  although I will save them for later in the week and make do with a 'normal' WBTB tomorrow.

----------


## CanisLucidus

I've done several trials with menthol and it's time that I stopped being lazy and reported my results:

*02/04/2013* - 2 bags peppermint tea at WBTB
Result: 3 vivid non-lucids, 1 lucid fragment
Mood: Comical.  One dream was very dark-themed but non-disturbing.

*02/08/2013* - 3 bags peppermint tea at WBTB
Result: *Lucid dream*
Mood: Relaxed, nostalgic, curious.
Lucid DJ Entry: The Menthol Arcade - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

*02/11/2013* - 3 bags peppermint tea _pre-bed_.  Short sleep.
Result: Vivid dream early in night.
Mood: Relaxed but introspective.  (Had a lot on my mind IWL.)

*02/15/2013* - 3 bags peppermint tea WBTB.
Result: Vivid dreams.
Mood: Anxious.  One was pre-apocalyptic.

*02/18/2013* - 3 bags peppermint tea WBTB.  (Short sleep that night.)
Result: Vivid dream w/ some random sexual overtones.  Some insomnia.
Mood: Detached.

*02/22/2013* - 6 bags peppermint tea WBTB.  Added 400mg L-theanine to ward off insomnia.
Result: Sexy (but non-explicit) *lucid dream*
Lucid DJ Entry: Losing My Grip - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Mood: Sexytime.

From what I've seen so far, I need to make pretty strong tea to get the expected results.  Fortunately, peppermint tea tastes awesome!  *6 bags* of my brand seemed to yield the most noticeable change in mood, but I'll have to keep experimenting.  This is the one area where I'm a little jealous of the folks running this experiment with cough drops -- you have a much clearer idea of how much menthol you're consuming.  I have basically no clue.

Anyway, this is a great experiment and I'll be continuing to rotate menthol through on my lucid aids schedule.  Thanks for all of your research and hard work, Alyzarin!   :smiley:

----------


## dutchraptor

That is awesome canis, seems to be working alright.
I got my steam distillation set up, it looks really pro, I made it all all out of copper and glass and a bit of solder.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> I got my steam distillation set up, it looks really pro, I made it all all out of copper and glass and a bit of solder.



Thanks, Dutch!  And that distillation system is just indescribably boss, man.  I love it!

BTW, I remember you mentioning a while back that tea bags were a pretty poor source of menthol compared to getting some good tea leaves.  Hypothetically, imagine that I am a lazy bastard who enjoys peppermint tea but wants to put the minimal possible effort into brewing.  Do you think that results would be dramatically better buying peppermint leaves online and brewing those vs. just piling on a million teabags as I'm doing currently?

----------


## dutchraptor

Hmm that's a tough one, I can't really say for certain. I don't think it's worth the effort buying leaves because they have to be fresh and collected at the right time to get the most out of them, and I don't really know how much menthol is in your teabags. You would be better off buying peppermint essential oil, considering the average we take is around 30mg and a 5g bottle costs around 4 dollars I think you should be able to last almost 50 days off a bottle. 
Although you should be weary not to overdose on menthol, as long a you take less then 500mg I think most people are unaffected.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Yes, I think I took some on back end of last year. I had an excellent dream on the 31st of Dec 2012. I haven't used it much this year so far.
> I do seem to get a more vivid dream from using it at times, although I do think that my WBTB and relaxation routine seems to help me.



Definitely, I'd say you're just getting better as a lucid dreamer overall and the menthol is just a nice little boost here and there.  :smiley: 





> Oh no.. who killed Kenny? 
> 
> I still have a third of a pack left,  although I will save them for later in the week and make do with a 'normal' WBTB tomorrow.



Sounds like a plan.  ::D:  I still have some cough drops somewhere around here lol. Hmmm....

I had a dream where Kenny died recently.  ::lol:: 





> I've done several trials with menthol and it's time that I stopped being lazy and reported my results:
> 
> ...
> 
> From what I've seen so far, I need to make pretty strong tea to get the expected results.  Fortunately, peppermint tea tastes awesome!  *6 bags* of my brand seemed to yield the most noticeable change in mood, but I'll have to keep experimenting.  This is the one area where I'm a little jealous of the folks running this experiment with cough drops -- you have a much clearer idea of how much menthol you're consuming.  I have basically no clue.
> 
> Anyway, this is a great experiment and I'll be continuing to rotate menthol through on my lucid aids schedule.  Thanks for all of your research and hard work, Alyzarin!



Thanks for all that info!  ::content::  And you're quite welcome, but we've really just been piecing together information from other sources, and everyone here has helped bring in the results at least as much as I have, and some much more. It couldn't have come through without everyone who contributed here.  :smiley: 





> That is awesome canis, seems to be working alright.
> I got my steam distillation set up, it looks really pro, I made it all all out of copper and glass and a bit of solder.



That setup is sweet! I'm jealous.  ::D:

----------


## Highlander

> Definitely, I'd say you're just getting better as a lucid dreamer overall and the menthol is just a nice little boost here and there.



Gee, thanks! Your'e doing quite well yourself!  ::D: 

I've still got to work on a quite a few things, but I would like to do a few LD related projects as in Art, techniques and devices(?) ,etc.








> Sounds like a plan.  I still have some cough drops somewhere around here lol. Hmmm....
> 
> I had a dream where Kenny died recently.



I seem to remember you posting a picture of you holding a bag of Menthol crystals as well!!!

Yes, I recall you mentioning about Kenny (being killed) one time in a dream as you said, "...You B*stards!"


Anyway here's today's dream!

Mon Feb 25th 2013

*Dose:* 5-HTP 100 mg (Bed) 38.8mg Cough drops (WBTB)
*Side Effects:* Gripey stomach/erection
*Sleep Duration:* 5.75 hrs before/3 hrs approx after
*WBTB:* Yes (41 min)
*Lucid:* YES
*Vividness:* Excellent
*Stability:* Excellent
*Dream Comments:* Scary pre-transition. FA. Highly stable and vivid DILD. Clear thought and control. Hypnagogia.

5-HTP and Menthol again  DILD! - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## dutchraptor

> I seem to remember you posting a picture of you holding a bag of Menthol crystals as well!!!



Really? I don't remember anyone ever actually acquiring menthol crystals here...unless I missed out on something major  :Uhm:

----------


## Xanous

I think Alyzarin ordered the bag of crystals online and posted the pic.

----------


## Highlander

> Really? I don't remember anyone ever actually acquiring menthol crystals here...unless I missed out on something major







> Set for life.




***POST NUMBER 500*** Yippee!  :smiley:

----------


## Alyzarin

Hehe, yeah, I've still got that bag somewhere around here.  ::chuckle::  But I'm woefully lacking in milligram scales to measure it with. A friend of mine is also in need of one for... other purposes though, so I may have access to one soon. >.>

----------


## Xanous

I know I added mugwort but I still think its worth reporting. Highlander, I am stealing your format.  ::D: 

*Dose:* 5 tablespoons Peppermint Leaves + 5 Tablesppons Mugwort + 3 cups water. 20 min simmer.
*Side Effects:* Slight insomnia (30 min), sexual images
*Sleep Duration:* 5 hrs before/2 hrs after
*WBTB:* Yes brief
*Lucid:* YES brief
*Vividness:* Extremely High
*Stability:* Mid ranged
*Dream Comments:* Lack of concentration but high recall. Missed a few dream signs but was close. MILD didn't work. Heavy HI prompted me to try WILD. I got a really fun dream with a lot of fast action. The latter dream was very vivid but confusing. Also, This is the first time I got any sexual side effect from menthol. Perhaps my overall dose was higher than usual?

Cowboy Bebop - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views 
Get The Baby and fragments - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


@dutchraptor: Can you extract any herb with that? It would be cool if I was able to somehow use it for my mugwort.  ::D:

----------


## Alyzarin

> I know I added mugwort but I still think its worth reporting. Highlander, I am stealing your format.



Actually, it's the thread's official recommended format.  ::teeth:: 

And thanks for posting that here!  ::content::

----------


## Alyzarin

*Research Update!*

Alright guys, check this out.... I thought some of you might find this interesting.

I've been doing more research on the role of endocannabinoids in dreams lately, and different topics of discussion going on around the forum here have been fueling my desire to learn even more lately. First, let me start with this. Anandamide, one of the big endocannabinoids, which exist in the hippocampus, has been shown to induce REM without tolerance or withdrawal through CB1 receptors when administered there. Here's a study on that: link.





> *Abstract*
> 
> Anandamide and oleamide, induce sleep when administered acutely, via the CB1 receptor. Their subchronic administration must be tested to demonstrate the absence of tolerance to this effect, and that the sudden withdrawal of these endocannabinoids (eCBs) does not affect sleep negatively. The sleep-waking cycle of rats was evaluated for 24h, under the effect of an acute or subchronic administration of eCBs, and during sudden eCBs withdrawal. AM251, a CB1 receptor antagonist (CB1Ra) was utilized to block eCBs effects. Our results indicated that both acute and subchronic administration of eCBs increase REMS. During eCBs withdrawal, rats lack the expression of an abstinence-like syndrome. AM251 was efficacious to prevent REMS increase caused by both acute and subchronic administration of these eCBs, suggesting that this effect is mediated by the CB1 receptor. Our data further support a role of the eCBs in REMS regulation.



Potent inhibitors of fatty acid amide hydrolase, the enzyme that breaks down anandamide, have also been shown to have a REM-increasing effect. This would normally be cool research for cannabinoids if it weren't for the fact that exogenous cannabinoid administration reduces REM through other mechanisms, meaning that the only way to really work with this would be to enhance the efficiency of endogenous cannabinoids like anandamide.

Anandamide is synthesized in the body from a chemical called N-arachidonoyl phosphatidylethanolamine, or NAPE. There are a few different metabolic pathways involved in this, most of which aren't easily accessible to us. However, one of the enzymes, known as phospholipase C, is said to be activated *by the kappa-opioid receptor*. This could mean that by taking menthol we're actually strengthening the process by which our body creates one of the chemicals involved in the generation of REM sleep and likely some of the aspects of the dream world. Isn't that neat!?  ::D:  Furthermore, NAPE is synthesized in the body from arachidonic acid, which is known to be safe for supplementation.... I wonder if it would make a good dream supplement in its own right, and furthermore, if supplementing with both arachidonic acid and menthol would create a synergistic effect? I don't know, but I'm definitely interested now!

----------


## dutchraptor

> @dutchraptor: Can you extract any herb with that? It would be cool if I was able to somehow use it for my mugwort.



I can extract almost any organic matter to an extent. I guess I could try mugwort, it does grow in some places in Ireland. Although I thought mugworth is said to have quite strong properties, so it's probably not necessary to steam distill it.

@Aly That is really cool. Would that mean that the half life of menthol in the body doesn't matter that much either and that we could take menthol before sleep?

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## Alyzarin

> @Aly That is really cool. Would that mean that the half life of menthol in the body doesn't matter that much either and that we could take menthol before sleep?



Well, I've always thought that personally lol. I've only ever taken it before sleep. How much this directly applies to it I'm not sure, but I suppose it's possible. Kappa-opioid receptors are known for having long-lasting effects. I've heard anecdotally that the cAMP depletion it causes doesn't re-balance itself as quickly as the drug effects wear off. I also know that kappa agonists are known to have long-lasting anti-addictive effects. (Maybe even caused by that same cAMP depletion?) And though it's not the exact same, but is the same receptor, I think kappa antagonists are the shining star of long-term effects. Selective ones tested in labs have been shown to have antidepressant effects lasting for *weeks* after a single dose, effects that are not reversible by using kappa agonists. So clearly they have a lingering effect in the body.

One thing I really wonder about with the anandamide potentiation is the sexual effects.... I didn't include this in the research post because I think it's too theoretical, but I always link the hippocampus to the imagination, and smoking weed makes my imagination become highly sexual. And if dreams, which are also hippocampal in origin, are just the imagination forced to encompass reality, I think it could make sense that increased cannabinoid activity there could account for the same kind of effects in dreams. I also wonder about its implications on the perception of spacetime, but that's a thought for another post....

----------


## Xanous

Dose: 2mg melatonin prebed. 6 tablespoons peppermint leaves wbtb. 
Side Effects: wakefulness, sexual HI
Sleep Duration: 4hrs/ 1.5hrs after
WBTB: Yes 20min
Lucid: YES
Vividness: High
Stability: Average

Taken? - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

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## CanisLucidus

I'm recovering from an illness, so this led to a really poor night of sleep.  My cough was quite annoying, so I decided to take the peppermint tea pre-bed rather than at WBTB.  I wound up taking melatonin at about 4 am because I was so desperate to get some sleep today.

Fortunately, against all odds I _did_ get a lucid dream!   :boogie: 

*Dose:*  Pre-bed: 6 bags peppermint tea.  WBTB: 250mg DMAE.  Late morning: 1.5 mg melatonin out of desperation to sleep.
*Side Effects:* Unknown
*Sleep Duration:* 4 hrs total   :Crying: 
*WBTB:* Yes (30 minutes intentional + 90 minutes unintentional)
*Lucid:* Yes!
*Vividness:* High
*Stability:* Medium
*Dream Comments:* Some spicy non-lucids before WBTB, then a very tame lucid dream late in the morning.

The lucid dream:
Floodlights - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

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## Xanous

Am I the only one to get action packed dreams from menthol or is this as common as the sexual effects? Or are they somehow linked to the same chemicals/neurons whatever in the brain? Action and sex seem to go hand in hand for most guys I think.  ::lol::

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## Alyzarin

Very nice guys, I love the results.  ::content::  I hope you feel better soon, Canis! Sorry I haven't been on really in the last couple of days, but I've been experiencing a prolonged nerdgasm. But before I go back to bulk buying realistic fake Yu-Gi-Oh! cards, I felt I should pop in to respond to this:





> Am I the only one to get action packed dreams from menthol or is this as common as the sexual effects? Or are they somehow linked to the same chemicals/neurons whatever in the brain? Action and sex seem to go hand in hand for most guys I think.



There are two amygdalae in the brain, one in the right hemisphere and one in the left. The right one is linked to aggression, and the left one is linked to euphoria, regardless of sexual orientation. But the right one also corresponds with sexual attraction to women, while the left one corresponds with attraction to men. So yes, for you they are linked.  :tongue2:

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## CanisLucidus

Last night was my weekly galantamine run.  My cough has been screwing up my sleep lately, so I thought, "Hey!  You know what's great at fixing annoying coughs?  _Menthol_."   ::goodjob2::   So here's a little data point on a trial of galantamine + choline + cough drops.

*Dose:*  Pre-bed: 10.8mg menthol (cough drops), 100mg 5-HTP, 1 cup apple juice  WBTB: 10.8 mg menthol (cough drops), 4mg galantamine, 200mg choline citrate, 250mg choline bitartrate, 300mg Alpha-GPC, 400 mg L-theanine.  After waking: 1600mg Piracetam.
*Side Effects:* Badass night of dreaming in spite of weak sleep
*Sleep Duration:* 6 hours
*WBTB:* Yes (30 minutes)
*Lucid:* Yes!  (Twice!)
*Vividness:* High
*Stability:* Medium
*Dream Comments:* Two great lucids, and recall was extremely high.  I recalled 7 dreams total if you include the two lucids.  That's really high for me.  (The highest, in fact, since the previous menthol night.  I'll be keeping an eye on that!)

The lucid dreams:
Prison Break - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
The Mesa - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Great night... one of my most successful in quite some time!

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## Alyzarin

Congrats, Canis!  ::content::  Sounds like you had an awesome night! It's interesting that you just decided to try that combination, because I was just thinking about it the other day. You know that thing I said up above about how kappa-opioid receptors increase endocannabinoid synthesis by activating phospholipase C? I later read that muscarinic acetylcholine receptors actually work through this exact same process, and these two also increase the release of inositol trisphosphate and calcium to enhance long-term potentiation (involved in learning and memory), so I was thinking that combining choline and menthol could actually be synergistic in this way. So I'm glad to see this, very interesting results!  ::D:

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## CanisLucidus

> Congrats, Canis!  Sounds like you had an awesome night! It's interesting that you just decided to try that combination, because I was just thinking about it the other day. You know that thing I said up above about how kappa-opioid receptors increase endocannabinoid synthesis by activating phospholipase C? I later read that muscarinic acetylcholine receptors actually work through this exact same process, and these two also increase the release of inositol trisphosphate and calcium to enhance long-term potentiation (involved in learning and memory), so I was thinking that combining choline and menthol could actually be synergistic in this way. So I'm glad to see this, very interesting results!



Thanks, Aly, I did!   ::content::   To the point where I have to ask myself the question whether I'll make this "a thing" every few weeks...?  (As if I wasn't already a big enough menth-head.)   ::chuckle::   So many exciting freakin combinations out there.

I am really liking your thoughts on the possible synergies between the kappa-opioid receptors and the mAChR's.  That makes a whole lot of sense.  When I get a little time I will need to catch up on some reading in this area!  I may have to try some more modest experiments with a little choline bitartrate, for example.  Galantamine is such an ACh power tool that I'd like to see what less aggressive, more subtle approaches do.

This is *fun!*  ::happy::

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## Alyzarin

> Thanks, Aly, I did!    To the point where I have to ask myself the question whether I'll make this "a thing" every few weeks...?  (As if I wasn't already a big enough menth-head.)    So many exciting freakin combinations out there.



Aww, this is making me all warm and fuzzy.  :armflap:  "Menth-head", I love it!! I hope you don't take this in a weird way, but I think you would have made a good drug user, because this is like drug use for the cautious and you're super into it.  ::lol::  I'm all excited because I love corrupting people introducing people to new tools to explore their mind with, so I'm really happy that you like it so much!  ::D: 

And I'll definitely eagerly await results if you do make this a regular thing!





> I am really liking your thoughts on the possible synergies between the kappa-opioid receptors and the mAChR's.  That makes a whole lot of sense.  When I get a little time I will need to catch up on some reading in this area!  I may have to try some more modest experiments with a little choline bitartrate, for example.  Galantamine is such an ACh power tool that I'd like to see what less aggressive, more subtle approaches do.



As always, let me know if you find anything cool in your research!  ::content::  And you could definitely do that to help feel out the effects, since galantamine is more than just direct increases of acetylcholine, too. It would probably help to get a good sense of what choline does on its own if you plan to combine it with other things a lot. It may surprise you what choline alone can do!





> This is *fun!*



I know, isn't it great?  :Bliss:

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## CanisLucidus

> Aww, this is making me all warm and fuzzy.  "Menth-head", I love it!! I hope you don't take this in a weird way, but I think you would have made a good drug user, because this is like drug use for the cautious and you're super into it.



Ha ha, I find that super flattering to hear!   ::content::   I can now go through life believing that in some alternate reality my cautiousness and meticulous, somewhat dorky recordkeeping could have made a major contribution to the scene.   ::chuckle:: 





> As always, let me know if you find anything cool in your research!  And you could definitely do that to help feel out the effects, since galantamine is more than just direct increases of acetylcholine, too. It would probably help to get a good sense of what choline does on its own if you plan to combine it with other things a lot. It may surprise you what choline alone can do!



I agree!  You got great results just from adding 250 mg choline bitartrate, so there are so many different ways to go.  It'd be nice to open these possibilities up for easier, cheaper substances than G.  Apart from being gentler on the wallet, choline bitartrate, soy lecithin, etc. aren't to me _drugs_ in the way that galantamine is a straight-up drug.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Ha ha, I find that super flattering to hear!    I can now go through life believing that in some alternate reality my cautiousness and meticulous, somewhat dorky recordkeeping could have made a major contribution to the scene.



As if it can't already.  :tongue2:  You're already helping this scene, and it's all really the same thing! Anything we figure out about how the brain works applies equally to drugs and supplements, and some of these things like menthol work directly on the same receptors. In fact, salvia is really the only recreational (and I use that word lightly) drug that acts potently on kappa-opioid receptors, there are a couple synthetic analogues but they're like almost completely unknown, which means that menthol is really the only other one that's being experimented with for mind-expanding purposes. You're part of a group of pioneers!  ::D: 

 ::cheers:: 





> I agree!  You got great results just from adding 250 mg choline bitartrate, so there are so many different ways to go.  It'd be nice to open these possibilities up for easier, cheaper substances than G.  Apart from being gentler on the wallet, choline bitartrate, soy lecithin, etc. aren't to me _drugs_ in the way that galantamine is a straight-up drug.



You're definitely right about that! It feels a lot easier to take a vitamin or nutrient supplement than something from a plant, because I mean... what's there to worry about?  ::chuckle::

----------


## Xanous

First of all. I know we avoid this but I feel its relevant to post this in both Menthol and Caffeine thread. I took a higher dose of caffeine this time because I wanted to WILD on the back side of peek plasma levels. I added melatonin and menthol as an afterthought. So really this was a caffeine experiment but I wanted to mention the menthol effects here as well.

*Dose*: Pre-bed: A little Guinness WBTB: 4AM 200MG Caffeine, 5:41AM 1MG Melatonin, 6:05AM 2 tablespoons peppermint leaves in tea.
*Side Effects*: mildly upset stomach
*Sleep Duration*: 5hrs/1hr
*WBTB*: Yes 2(brief then 1 hrs 40min)
*Lucid*: Yes (sort of)
*Vividness*: Medium to high
*Stability*: Low
*Dream Comments*: I woke a little after 5am from a non vivid NLD about texting my friend Zack in the cart garage at a Wal-Mart. I lay down and stared at a celling fan when I woke up. I definitely could tell my tolerance to caffeine has been significantly lowered since I reduced my daily intake. I felt very awake and could tell that heart rate went up and started breathing faster. 

Later the menthol gave me very strong sexual HI and made it very difficult to relax for awhile. Finally around 7AM I started going to sleep.

Ok now the interesting part. I had maybe 6 or 7 DILDs after this. The only problem was that as soon as I realized I was dreaming I would immediately wake up. Each time I would be still not moving and continue to WILD. I tried several tricks. Counting, repetitive "motion", focusing on the body, and SSILD. All were effective but with each DILD I still woke up. I don't remember the dreams because I didn't want to move to record them. I unsuccessfully tried to commit them to memory but they were just random little snippets anyway. Then, the alarm got me at 8am. (I had something I had to do at 9) I snoozed for a while but didn't have time to DILD before the next alarm. I really think that if I had had a few more hours to sleep I would have eventually got it. I may repeat this next Saturday morning only with a slightly smaller caffeine dose. Overall, I really think the menthol added that little extra "boost" and was quite pleased with the result.

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## Alyzarin

6 or 7!!  ::shock::  That's crazy! It sounds like if you tweak that to have just a little less restlessness you would be able to get some pretty incredible results. Neat stuff!  ::content::

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## Xanous

Yeah it was interesting. I really lost count there so I am just guessing the total count. I mean, it was literally, watch the dream form. Lucid. Wake. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. And I am 100% positive it wasn't just vivid HI/HH either. Cool stuff.

----------


## Alyzarin

That does sound really great, I'm jealous.  ::content::

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## CanisLucidus

Another menthol night for me last night.  This cough has had em coming more frequently lately.   ::D:   I had high hopes that the addition of choline bitartrate might be enough for an LD, but it didn't happen last night.  That won't be the last time that I play with including choline bitartrate, though.  I feel like there could be something there.

*Dose:*  Pre-bed: 16.2mg menthol (cough drops), 3mg melatonin, 1 bag popcorn  WBTB: 16.2mg menthol (cough drops), 500mg choline bitartrate
*Side Effects:* Unusually long duration of, uh, "morning excitement" after waking
*Sleep Duration:* 8 hours
*WBTB:* Yes (30 minutes)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* High
*Stability:* N/A
*Dream Comments:* Final dream was absurdly sexy. Previous dreams amusing and very tame. Good vividness and recall throughout.

The last dream before wake-up (a non-lucid) was comically sexy.  Literally _every_ DC that I encountered was an attractive female.  Even though I didn't wind up actually doing anything with them, I had two points at which I imagined performing a sex act with one of these DCs.  On each occasion, I was surprised by how incredibly vivid my imagination was.  I'll try to drill into my head that an exceedingly vivid imagination is a dream sign.

I am not sure whether this extraordinary vividness of imagination is just a general dream thing or more specifically a menthol thing.  It's come up for me before in a menthol dream, so it's interesting.  I'll keep looking for it.

Next time, I'd like to try piling all of this menthol into WBTB.  Another potential lever to pull: consider having choline bitartrate before bed instead of at WBTB.  Choline bitartrate at WBTB seems to make the most logical sense to me, but Alyzarin had great results with a modest dose pre-bed.  Definitely worth a try.

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## Xanous

Interesting side effect there CL  ::lol::  Im starting to wonder if menthol nights should be preceded by prebed whoopie time.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> Interesting side effect there CL  Im starting to wonder if menthol nights should be preceded by prebed whoopie time.



LOL, I know.  I'm starting to learn that menthol reports are sometimes a little embarrassing.   ::chuckle::   You get to a certain dosage with this stuff and _man_.  The trip reports from 3 bags of peppermint tea were certainly way less soul-baring to write!   ::D: 

Your suggested enhancement to the menthol experiment sounds good, just so long as we're not required to include this info in our reports.

----------


## Alyzarin

> *Dream Comments:* Final dream was absurdly sexy. Previous dreams amusing and very tame. Good vividness and recall throughout.
> 
> The last dream before wake-up (a non-lucid) was comically sexy.  Literally _every_ DC that I encountered was an attractive female.  Even though I didn't wind up actually doing anything with them, I had two points at which I imagined performing a sex act with one of these DCs.  On each occasion, I was surprised by how incredibly vivid my imagination was.  I'll try to drill into my head that an exceedingly vivid imagination is a dream sign.



Hehehe.  :armflap:  I couldn't take all these reports anymore, I finally went out and got some more cough drops. Hopefully I'll see some nice results of my own soon.  ::D: 





> I am not sure whether this extraordinary vividness of imagination is just a general dream thing or more specifically a menthol thing.  It's come up for me before in a menthol dream, so it's interesting.  I'll keep looking for it.



I would guess both. Well, I know the former is true, but I'm guessing the latter contributes as well. I'd say it's likely that menthol's effects on imagination will become increasingly more severe with the dose. After all, kappa-opioid agonists are very powerful hallucinogens in high doses, maybe some of the strongest. Any receptor that can cause such a powerful and dissociative psychedelic delirium must be distorting the mind in some pretty bizarre ways even at low activation.





> Next time, I'd like to try piling all of this menthol into WBTB.  Another potential lever to pull: consider having choline bitartrate before bed instead of at WBTB.  Choline bitartrate at WBTB seems to make the most logical sense to me, but Alyzarin had great results with a modest dose pre-bed.  Definitely worth a try.



You should try it and see if it works for you! You never know.  :smiley: 

Oh, and I don't think you're the first person to report that particular side effect.  ::chuckle::  I believe we used that as a good sign for the validity of menthol's sexual effects!

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## Xanous

> Oh, and I don't think you're the first person to report that particular side effect. I believe we used that as a good sign for the validity of menthol's sexual effects!



I have to agree. It wasn't until I got the sexual side effects that I started getting lucid. But I haven't got both at the same time from it. I'll call that a good thing. I really would do other things in a dream but that's me.  ::D: 





> LOL, I know.  I'm starting to learn that menthol reports are sometimes a little embarrassing.    You get to a certain dosage with this stuff and _man_.  The trip reports from 3 bags of peppermint tea were certainly way less soul-baring to write!  
> 
> Your suggested enhancement to the menthol experiment sounds good, just so long as we're not required to include this info in our reports.



I know right?  ::lol::  I mean the HI I got was like literally watching porn. Geez I don't know if this batch of bulk peppermint leaves is just extra strong or what but I never had to contend with any of that with cough drops or regular boxed bagged teas. Speaking of which I need to get off the computer. JK. No really. What? nevermind.

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## Alyzarin

*Breaking News!! Another Research Update!!*

Alright guys... I think the rules just changed. We're playing ball in a new court now.

This is going to open a whole new realm of possibilities for things to research. 

A-type GABA receptor as a central targe - PubMed Mobile




> *Abstract*
> 
> Menthol is a widely-used cooling and flavoring agent derived from mint leaves. In the peripheral nervous system, menthol regulates sensory transduction by activating TRPM8 channels residing specifically in primary sensory neurons. Although behavioral studies have implicated menthol actions in the brain, no direct central target of menthol has been identified. Here we show that menthol reduces the excitation of rat hippocampal neurons in culture and suppresses the epileptic activity induced by pentylenetetrazole injection and electrical kindling in vivo. We found menthol not only enhanced the currents induced by low concentrations of GABA but also directly activated GABA(A) receptor (GABA(A)R) in hippocampal neurons in culture. Furthermore, in the CA1 region of rat hippocampal slices, menthol enhanced tonic GABAergic inhibition although phasic GABAergic inhibition was unaffected. Finally, the structure-effect relationship of menthol indicated that hydroxyl plays a critical role in menthol enhancement of tonic GABA(A)R. Our results thus reveal a novel cellular mechanism that may underlie the ambivalent perception and psychophysical effects of menthol and underscore the importance of tonic inhibition by GABA(A)Rs in regulating neuronal activity.



So yes, this thing is saying that menthol seems to not only be a positive allosteric modulator of GABA(A) receptors but also a direct agonist, and this was verified specifically for the hippocampus. In case you're wondering what type of PAM it is, it seems to be fairly unique. This next study claims that it's unlike the typicals like benzos and barbiturates and actually shares some properties with the very obscure and particularly euphoric anesthetic propofol, one of the drugs implicated in contributing to Michael Jackson's overdose.

Menthol shares general anesthetic activ - PubMed Mobile




> *Abstract*
> 
> Menthol and related compounds were investigated for modulation of recombinant human gamma-aminobutyric acid type A (GABA(A), alpha(1)beta(2)gamma(2s)) receptor currents expressed in Xenopus oocytes. Sub-maximal (EC(20)) GABA currents were typically enhanced by co-applications of 3-300 microM (+)-menthol (e.g. by approximately 2-fold at 50 microM) > isopulegol > isomenthol> alpha-terpineol >> cyclohexanol. We studied menthol's actions on GABA(A) receptors compared to sedatives (benzodiazepines) and intravenous anesthetics (barbiturates, steroids, etomidate and propofol). Flumazenil (a benzodiazepine antagonist) did not inhibit menthol enhancements while currents directly activated by 50 microM propofol were significantly inhibited (by 26+/-3%) by 50 microM (+)-menthol. GABA(A) receptors containing beta(2) subunits with either a point mutation in a methionine residue to a tryptophan at the 286 position (in transmembrane domain 3, TM-3) or a tyrosine to a tryptophan at the 444 position (TM-4) are insensitive to modulation by propofol. Enhancements of GABA EC(20) currents by menthol were equally abolished in GABA(A) alpha(1)beta(2)(M286W)gamma(2s) and alpha(1)beta(2)(Y444W)gamma(2s) receptors while positive modulations by benzodiazepines, barbiturates and steroids were unaffected. Menthol may therefore exert its actions on GABA(A) receptors via sites distinct from benzodiazepines, steroids and barbiturates, and via sites important for modulation by propofol. Finally, using an in vivo tadpole assay, addition of (+)-menthol resulted in a loss of righting reflex with an EC(50) of 23.5+/-4.7 microM (approximately10-fold less potent anesthesia than propofol). Thus, menthol and analogs share general anesthetic action with propofol, possibly via action at similar sites on the GABA(A) receptor.



Now where does this leave us? Well damn... there are a lot of things I could say, but I think I'll hold off on too much for now. But some immediate observations....

First, there's the link with propofol. This makes it pretty unique, and it looks like it's still not exactly the same receptor site. But just as a quick overview, propofol is supposed to be one of the much more euphoric GABAergics and maybe mildly hallucinogenic, and I have actually heard about sexual effects from it before. However, it's also been found to have multiple mechanisms of action, with some belief that the endocannabinoid system may be playing a role, so it's probably best not to speculate there.

What really interests me is the direct agonist effect.... That alone could make it have hallucinations, though I would expect it to from the kappa-opioid agonism by the time it was a high enough dose for that. Makes me wonder what the effects would be like from a strong trip, though.... But anyway, here's what comes to mind. GABA has been reported by people to induce vivid and lucid dreams, which is interesting considering the effects that drugs like benzos have on dreams, but it could just be that they effect memory and REM-related functions too specifically. It's easy to see with them at lower doses, and drugs like alcohol, that GABA can positively effect dreams, so maybe a direct agonist like GABA itself can more easily get these effects. The other big thing is muscimol, the main desired active chemical in Amanita muscaria and Amanita pantherina mushrooms. Just like how salvia is unique in that it's really the only commonly used hallucinogen that binds to the kappa-opioid receptors for a significant effect, the amanita mushrooms are basically in the same situation but for GABA(A) receptors. Muscimol binds directly to GABA(A) and has powerful hallucinogenic effects at high doses. One thing it's also pretty well-known for is _inducing bizarre dreams_. There are actually many users of it who claim that it's one of its most desirable effects, saying that the way it works is that first you can take them and then sleep into a deep sleep of powerful or meaningful but very psychedelic dreams that are usually extremely vivid and often lucid, and then if you took enough you'll trip later when you wake up. But the dream effects can be gotten even at a lower dose, and I know people have used teas to that end before. I can't help but wonder if higher doses of menthol may be drawing from these kinds of effects as well....

There are so many new things to consider now!!  :Oh noes:

----------


## Alyzarin

*Dose:* Pre-bed: Lots of THC up to ~3 1/2 hours before bed, 18.2 mg menthol; WBTB: 18.2 mg menthol
*Side Effects:* Diuresis, insomnia, upset stomach
*Sleep Duration:* 6 hours, ~1 hour and 20 minutes
*WBTB:* Yes
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* High, all things considered
*Stability:* Impressive
*Dream Comments:* So I decided to go for the cough drops again. I forgot how horrible they taste!  ::shakehead2::  I think I'm just going to have to get that scale lol. But here's the deal.... The first dream I had of the night was really trippy, it took place at a high school I believe that had a very intricate system of stairs and escalators that I was constantly having to navigate. There was also some kind of ongoing conversation (maybe just all in my head?) about how a sleeping pill can induce hallucinations indirectly without stimulating certain receptors as long as it works through the part of the brain that initiates dreaming. Strange stuff....

After I woke up from that I decided to do a WBTB, which is usually a risk for me, but I felt like my bladder was going to burst anyway so I got up to use the bathroom and then ate a couple more cough drops. It was pretty difficult to fall asleep again after that, and my stomach was not happy with me at all. I had lots of weird little hypnagogic snippits that I remember nothing of now, and then I finally passed out and had a The Walking Dead style dream where I was moving around from house to house with a group of people, though not until after casually browsing through a supermarket.  ::wtf::  The reason I listed the stability as "Impressive" was because the last scene of this dream took place at my aunt and uncles' house and a pretty good amount of it took place in almost pitch black, but the scene kept pretty solid. I even drank a little Chardonnay at the end (which I'm blaming Ophelia for lol), and then my very last thought in that last dream was "I really should get some rest, you know I never did fall asleep again after taking that menthol."  ::roll:: 

All in all, not too dull. I would have tried to go back asleep again but I have business to attend to. These Yahoo! Japan auctions are getting heated. >.>

----------


## CanisLucidus

> What really interests me is the direct agonist effect.... That alone could make it have hallucinations, though I would expect it to from the kappa-opioid agonism by the time it was a high enough dose for that. Makes me wonder what the effects would be like from a strong trip, though.... But anyway, here's what comes to mind. GABA has been reported by people to induce vivid and lucid dreams, which is interesting considering the effects that drugs like benzos have on dreams, but it could just be that they effect memory and REM-related functions too specifically. It's easy to see with them at lower doses, and drugs like alcohol, that GABA can positively effect dreams, so maybe a direct agonist like GABA itself can more easily get these effects. The other big thing is muscimol, the main desired active chemical in Amanita muscaria and Amanita pantherina mushrooms. Just like how salvia is unique in that it's really the only commonly used hallucinogen that binds to the kappa-opioid receptors for a significant effect, the amanita mushrooms are basically in the same situation but for GABA(A) receptors. Muscimol binds directly to GABA(A) and has powerful hallucinogenic effects at high doses. One thing it's also pretty well-known for is _inducing bizarre dreams_. There are actually many users of it who claim that it's one of its most desirable effects, saying that the way it works is that first you can take them and then sleep into a deep sleep of powerful or meaningful but very psychedelic dreams that are usually extremely vivid and often lucid, and then if you took enough you'll trip later when you wake up. But the dream effects can be gotten even at a lower dose, and I know people have used teas to that end before. I can't help but wonder if higher doses of menthol may be drawing from these kinds of effects as well....
> 
> There are so many new things to consider now!!



Sensational!!  Amazing find there, Aly!  Straight up, I didn't even know that menthol has GABAergic properties of any kind, much less that it is an agonist at GABAAR.  I wonder what the relative strength is of these GABAergic effects versus things that we already know (such as kappa-opioid activation.)  Do you have a sense of how to assess that?  I'm out of my depth there at this point.  Got more learning to do.

Amazing to have a whole new moving part to this equation.  I guess this is the direction you were heading yesterday when you asked about TRPM8 yesterday and I helpfully responded "Uh durrrrr..."  LOL.

Really, really cool find for us menth-heads.





> Menthol and related compounds were investigated for modulation of recombinant human gamma-aminobutyric acid type A (GABA(A), alpha(1)beta(2)gamma(2s)) receptor currents expressed in *Xenopus* oocytes.



Anyone else read that as "Xanous" at first?  Okay, just me then.   :Cheeky:

----------


## Xanous

*Dose*: 1mg Melatonin,3g Fish Oil, 200MG 5-HTP prebed. 2 tablespoons peppermint leaves + Galantamine stack wbtb.
*Side Effects*: mild stomach pain, sexual dreams
*Sleep Duration*: 4hrs/ 4hrs after
*WBTB*: Yes 30min
*Lucid*: YES (multiple shorts)
*Vividness*: Varied
*Stability*: Varied
*Comments*: My menthol intake was a bit lower than usual. I wanted to avoid wakefulness with G since I excluded Valerian Root this time. Had multiple LDs probably due to G. Sexual themes arose. First lucids where highly unstable. Later LDs got better but brief. A couple of WILDs came straight form HH and I attribute that to menthol. It seems that Menthol could aid WILD attempts especially if coupled with another mental stimulant like Caffeine, G, or possibly B6. Full report in DJ link below.

Blindness, Sensations and Shorts - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Alyzarin

> Sensational!!  Amazing find there, Aly!  Straight up, I didn't even know that menthol has GABAergic properties of any kind, much less that it is an agonist at GABAAR.  I wonder what the relative strength is of these GABAergic effects versus things that we already know (such as kappa-opioid activation.)  Do you have a sense of how to assess that?  I'm out of my depth there at this point.  Got more learning to do.



I had no idea either! I've seen its other known receptor properties in multiple places, but this is news to me. It seems to be relatively unknown. I really don't know how to compare it to the other effects either, but I'm guessing that the kappa-opioid effects are stronger than the GABA(A) effects since menthol is known to produce analgesia at doses that really don't provide any sedation. That's just based on experience though and reports though. It's hard to actually say at this point.

Oh, I've been meaning to ask, do you feel any analgesic effects from menthol? I can feel some of the opioid relaxation myself but I also know that female sex hormones cause kappa-opioid receptors to link up with mu-opioid receptors in the spinal cord and as a result women get much more analgesia from kappa agonists than men do on average, so I'm just curious how much of an effect it has for you.





> Amazing to have a whole new moving part to this equation.  I guess this is the direction you were heading yesterday when you asked about TRPM8 yesterday and I helpfully responded "Uh durrrrr..."  LOL.
> 
> Really, really cool find for us menth-heads.



Hahaha, yeah, that eventually got me there.  :tongue2:  I actually found some interesting things about TPRM8 too, there was a thing about how it gets deactivated by arachidonic acid formed from phospholipase A2 activation my M3 muscarinic receptors. I'm not sure about from phospholipase C... but it's an interesting thought because it means that the more acetylcholine there is active at the same time as menthol the less TPRM8 activation there will be. I'm not totally sure what that receptor does there in the first place, but it definitely makes me wonder more about the effects of combining menthol and choline!

And I'm glad you like it, I was excited.  ::D: 





> Anyone else read that as "Xanous" at first?  Okay, just me then.



I've been reading about Xenopus oocytes for a long time now, so I'm afraid you might be alone in that one.  ::chuckle:: 





> *Dose*: 1mg Melatonin,3g Fish Oil, 200MG 5-HTP prebed. 2 tablespoons peppermint leaves + Galantamine stack wbtb.
> *Side Effects*: mild stomach pain, sexual dreams
> *Sleep Duration*: 4hrs/ 4hrs after
> *WBTB*: Yes 30min
> *Lucid*: YES (multiple shorts)
> *Vividness*: Varied
> *Stability*: Varied
> *Comments*: My menthol intake was a bit lower than usual. I wanted to avoid wakefulness with G since I excluded Valerian Root this time. Had multiple LDs probably due to G. Sexual themes arose. First lucids where highly unstable. Later LDs got better but brief. A couple of WILDs came straight form HH and I attribute that to menthol. It seems that Menthol could aid WILD attempts especially if coupled with another mental stimulant like Caffeine, G, or possibly B6. Full report in DJ link below.
> 
> Blindness, Sensations and Shorts - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views



Nice!  ::content::  Hey just out of curiosity, how much of an effect do you notice from the fish oil? I've been really interested lately in how it effects anandamide's activity on the endovanilloid system!

About the WILDing, I've actually had two WILDs ever and each were by accident, and the second one (I believe...) was after a night of taking menthol. Highlander reports lots of good hypnagogic stuff with it too. Given its receptor affinities, particularly these new ones, it probably does just make it easier to reach that state.

----------


## Xanous

> I had no idea either! I've seen its other known receptor properties in multiple places, but this is news to me. It seems to be relatively unknown. I really don't know how to compare it to the other effects either, but I'm guessing that the kappa-opioid effects are stronger than the GABA(A) effects since menthol is known to produce analgesia at doses that really don't provide any sedation. That's just based on experience though and reports though. It's hard to actually say at this point.
> 
> Oh, I've been meaning to ask, do you feel any analgesic effects from menthol? I can feel some of the opioid relaxation myself but I also know that female sex hormones cause kappa-opioid receptors to link up with mu-opioid receptors in the spinal cord and as a result women get much more analgesia from kappa agonists than men do on average, so I'm just curious how much of an effect it has for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha, yeah, that eventually got me there.  I actually found some interesting things about TPRM8 too, there was a thing about how it gets deactivated by arachidonic acid formed from phospholipase A2 activation my M3 muscarinic receptors. I'm not sure about from phospholipase C... but it's an interesting thought because it means that the more acetylcholine there is active at the same time as menthol the less TPRM8 activation there will be. I'm not totally sure what that receptor does there in the first place, but it definitely makes me wonder more about the effects of combining menthol and choline!
> 
> And I'm glad you like it, I was excited. 
> ...



I read it as xanous at first  ::lol::  And I havent noticed much analgesic effects but I never thought about it either. I havent noticed my usual back pain after menthol so maybe. Usually it just feels like a mild stimulant.

The fish oil usually helps recall and improve chances of DILD. But the effect goes away after several consecutive nights but seems to return after a period of abstinence. I think most aids work that way IMO. 

Interesting thoughts on the WILDs. There definitely seems to be something to it. Ill probably always shoot for WILD with menthol for now on. 

I still wonder the time to peek plasma and half life elimination so I can time my attempts better.

----------


## Alyzarin

> I read it as xanous at first  And I havent noticed much analgesic effects but I never thought about it either. I havent noticed my usual back pain after menthol so maybe. Usually it just feels like a mild stimulant.
> 
> The fish oil usually helps recall and improve chances of DILD. But the effect goes away after several consecutive nights but seems to return after a period of abstinence. I think most aids work that way IMO. 
> 
> Interesting thoughts on the WILDs. There definitely seems to be something to it. Ill probably always shoot for WILD with menthol for now on.



Ah, cool.  :smiley:  It does feel like a stimulant to me too as far as the mindset is concerned, but I do feel the physical opioid effects a bit. If it is helping you I'm guessing back pain relief would be a likely effect, last night I could feel it pretty nicely everywhere but especially in my spine and legs.

Yeah, I would expect it to build tolerance with this.... Thanks for the info! What really interests me is that two of the three big omega-3 fatty acids in fish oil block the TRPV1 receptor (the other activates it, but seems to be balanced out by this), which is the vanilloid 1 receptor. This is also the receptor that's activated by capsaicin, the chemical that makes spicy foods spicy. What's significant is that activation of TRPV1 causes long-term depression in the dentate gyrus of the hippocampus, which is thought to be involved in new memory formation, and that causes a disruption of that process. Given that, it makes perfect sense that something that blocks those receptors would make memory formation easier, among other functions. The thing is that anandamide itself, the endocannabinoid we're aiming to increase to enhance REM (and is increased by all cholinergic supplements), also binds to TRPV1. So I was thinking that it would probably be even more logical to add fish oil to any stack including menthol or something cholinergic to overcome that. I'm glad to hear that it does something for you!

And I look forward to hearing about any more WILD attempts you have with it!  ::content:: 





> I still wonder the time to peek plasma and half life elimination so I can time my attempts better.



http://www.bvsde.paho.org/bvsacd/cd53/ahijevych.pdf




> Average peak plasma menthol glucuronide concentrations were 16.73¡5.53 mmol/l after 100mg menthol capsule and 2.36¡0.74 mmol/l after a lozenge or tea. Peak times ranged from 30 to 120 minutes after a menthol capsule and 20 to 60 minutes after a lozenge or tea.



Disposition kinetics and effects of ment... [Clin Pharmacol Ther. 1999] - PubMed - NCBI




> Menthol was rapidly metabolized, and only menthol glucuronide could be measured in plasma or urine. The plasma half-life of menthol glucuronide averaged 56.2 minutes (95% confidence interval [CI], 51.0 to 61.5) and 42.6 minutes (95% CI, 32.5 to 52.7) in menthol capsule and mint candy/mint tea conditions, respectively (P < .05).



Does this help?

----------


## Xanous

> Does this help?



Yes very much! Thank you.  You're full of great info as always.  ::D: 

I'll have to compare that to my dose/wake times in my records when I get home to see what the most consistent timing would be.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> I had no idea either! I've seen its other known receptor properties in multiple places, but this is news to me. It seems to be relatively unknown. I really don't know how to compare it to the other effects either, but I'm guessing that the kappa-opioid effects are stronger than the GABA(A) effects since menthol is known to produce analgesia at doses that really don't provide any sedation. That's just based on experience though and reports though. It's hard to actually say at this point.



You're right, that's a very sensible way to look at it.  I've never found any amount of menthol I've taken to chill me out or space me out in any way.





> Oh, I've been meaning to ask, do you feel any analgesic effects from menthol? I can feel some of the opioid relaxation myself but I also know that female sex hormones cause kappa-opioid receptors to link up with mu-opioid receptors in the spinal cord and as a result women get much more analgesia from kappa agonists than men do on average, so I'm just curious how much of an effect it has for you.



As for analgesic properties, it _does_ seem to provide actual cough relief (however temporarily.)  My understanding of how it pulled this off was by making an irritated throat a bit less sensitive and prone to activating the cough reflex.  In that sense, I've experience an analgesic effect.

But that's mostly a topical effect (I assume.)  Were you thinking more a general analgesic?  I don't know on that one!  I should perform some kind of experiment where I try stabbing myself in the thigh with a fork both before and after sucking down 6 cough drops.   ::chuckle:: 

I didn't know that women had linkage between kappa-opioid receptors and the mu-opioid receptors!  Does this mean that dynorphins wind up acting kinda like endorphins for women?  _Lucky!_





> Hahaha, yeah, that eventually got me there.  I actually found some interesting things about TPRM8 too, there was a thing about how it gets deactivated by arachidonic acid formed from phospholipase A2 activation my M3 muscarinic receptors. I'm not sure about from phospholipase C... but it's an interesting thought because it means that the more acetylcholine there is active at the same time as menthol the less TPRM8 activation there will be. I'm not totally sure what that receptor does there in the first place, but it definitely makes me wonder more about the effects of combining menthol and choline!



That _is_ interesting.  I will definitely be doing more fiddling with menthol + choline combinations over the coming weeks/months.  I was certainly pleased with how menthol went with the classic galantamine + choline stack, and Xanous turned in awesome results with such a combo just this morning.  No narrative yet on "what it all means", but good data so far.





> Nice!  Hey just out of curiosity, how much of an effect do you notice from the fish oil? I've been really interested lately in how it effects anandamide's activity on the endovanilloid system!
> ...
> The thing is that anandamide itself, the endocannabinoid we're aiming to increase to enhance REM (and is increased by all cholinergic supplements), also binds to TRPV1



Ah, fish oil!  I take a pretty good amount of fish oil (6g per day, at times as much as 9g.)  I've often wondered what the overall effect is.  Lately I've been tilting my fish oil intake toward the morning or mid-day simply because I had no idea if it affected anything sleep- or dream-wise.  But wow, this info about TRPV1 and the relation to the dentate gyrus is making me want to take it pre-bed!  And at WBTB!  And at pretty much every time of the day.   ::D: 

Is throwing in fish oil at WBTB completely insane?  I guess I could just go ahead and do it and see what happens.  I'm taking a lot anyway, so it's just a reshuffling of my daily 6g or whatever.

You really know a lot of stuff.  I am most impressed.

----------


## Alyzarin

> As for analgesic properties, it _does_ seem to provide actual cough relief (however temporarily.)  My understanding of how it pulled this off was by making an irritated throat a bit less sensitive and prone to activating the cough reflex.  In that sense, I've experience an analgesic effect.
> 
> But that's mostly a topical effect (I assume.)  Were you thinking more a general analgesic?  I don't know on that one!  I should perform some kind of experiment where I try stabbing myself in the thigh with a fork both before and after sucking down 6 cough drops.  
> 
> I didn't know that women had linkage between kappa-opioid receptors and the mu-opioid receptors!  Does this mean that dynorphins wind up acting kinda like endorphins for women?  _Lucky!_



Ah, well at least it's intended effect is working.  ::chuckle::  Yeah, I think that's a reaction to the cold receptors, I'm not totally sure how it works....

I don't know if you would get quite that much analgesia from menthol lol. But if you give it a shot then make sure to report back for us.  ::lol::  I honestly don't know though, I haven't taken that large of a dose before. But yeah, I was talking more general. Like a prescription pain killer type of analgesia. For me it bears some resemblance to a low dose of hydrocodone.

Well dynorphins are interesting because in too large amounts they actually stimulate pain but are pain killing for both men and women in lower doses. However, they are much more endorphin-like for women, yeah.  :tongue2:  It seems to be due to a kind of positive allosteric modulation. Kappa-opioid activity enhances mu-opioid activity only in women so high dynorphin or other agonist activation enhances endorphin/exogenous agonist signalling. However, it also means that low kappa activity decreases mu activity. I'm not really sure when that's an issue though, except maybe when involving drug use. Kappa-opioid receptors have their own form of analgesia too which is why they have some of that activity in both sexes, but they only regulate mu activity as well in women. The best part? THC causes a lot of its analgesia through spinal dynorphin release.  ::rolleyes:: 





> Ah, fish oil!  I take a pretty good amount of fish oil (6g per day, at times as much as 9g.)  I've often wondered what the overall effect is.  Lately I've been tilting my fish oil intake toward the morning or mid-day simply because I had no idea if it affected anything sleep- or dream-wise.  But wow, this info about TRPV1 and the relation to the dentate gyrus is making me want to take it pre-bed!  And at WBTB!  And at pretty much every time of the day.  
> 
> Is throwing in fish oil at WBTB completely insane?  I guess I could just go ahead and do it and see what happens.  I'm taking a lot anyway, so it's just a reshuffling of my daily 6g or whatever.
> 
> You really know a lot of stuff.  I am most impressed.



Wow, that is a lot!  ::shock::  I take 1.4 grams every morning, but that's it. I don't see any reason why you couldn't use it at WBTB, it probably works the best if you take it right when you need it. You might want to focus a lot of it for that dose though, since you probably have a good tolerance to it if you take that much every day!

And thanks.  I just have too much free time to spend researching things!

----------


## CanisLucidus

So cool!  I love all of that info about dynorphin responses in women.  You must keep a really good set of notes somewhere, right?  Or at least I hope you do.  You've got so much great info at hand.





> Wow, that is a lot!  I take 1.4 grams every morning, but that's it. I don't see any reason why you couldn't use it at WBTB, it probably works the best if you take it right when you need it. You might want to focus a lot of it for that dose though, since you probably have a good tolerance to it if you take that much every day!



Good thinking, I will!  Maybe 2g before bed and 4g during WBTB.

You're right, 6g fish oil dose is higher than what you would typically see.  I just love this stuff for so many reasons, though.  One concrete rationale for that 6g dose in particular is this study, which found a measurable anabolic response in subjects given 4g daily of Lovaza: Omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids augment ... [Clin Sci (Lond). 2011] - PubMed - NCBI.  Pretty striking result!

Anyway, Lovaza is a super-pure, prescription-only form of fish oil, so to match the DHA and EPA in that one, I've gotta eat 6 of my over-the-counter fish oil caps.   ::D:   I find that strength, agility, and mobility correlate well with a higher quality of life, so to this is yet another reason that I can't stop loving fish oil.   ::smitten::

----------


## Alyzarin

> So cool!  I love all of that info about dynorphin responses in women.  You must keep a really good set of notes somewhere, right?  Or at least I hope you do.  You've got so much great info at hand.



Ehehe...heh.... Actually, despite not infrequent requests to do so, I've never really taken notes on any of my research or written any of this down anywhere aside from posts I make here and the occasional chart I'll draw while explaining something to someone, which gets discarded immediately afterward. Pretty much everything is done and kept up here. *taps skull*





> Good thinking, I will!  Maybe 2g before bed and 4g during WBTB.
> 
> You're right, 6g fish oil dose is higher than what you would typically see.  I just love this stuff for so many reasons, though.  One concrete rationale for that 6g dose in particular is this study, which found a measurable anabolic response in subjects given 4g daily of Lovaza: Omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids augment ... [Clin Sci (Lond). 2011] - PubMed - NCBI.  Pretty striking result!
> 
> Anyway, Lovaza is a super-pure, prescription-only form of fish oil, so to match the DHA and EPA in that one, I've gotta eat 6 of my over-the-counter fish oil caps.    I find that strength, agility, and mobility correlate well with a higher quality of life, so to this is yet another reason that I can't stop loving fish oil.



Ah, I see! That's actually pretty cool.  ::content::  I may have to look into increasing my own dosage then! It is one of the only supplements I've been taking for a very long time without any signs of stopping, it's a nice one.  :smiley:

----------


## CanisLucidus

It was a menthol, DMAE, and fish oil lucid dream for me last night!

*Dose:*  Pre-bed: 2g fish oil  WBTB: 34.8mg menthol (6 cough drops), 250mg DMAE, 4g fish oil
*Side Effects:* Very mild insomnia
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
*WBTB:* Yes (40 minutes)
*Lucid:* Yes!
*Vividness:* High
*Stability:* Moderate
*Dream Comments:* Comical and fun mood for this lucid.  Mostly relaxed and happy.  A few fleeting sexy thoughts, but nothing major.

The lucid dream:
The DreamViews Drive - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Yay menthol!  6 cough drops are a little rough to face at WBTB, but so worth it.   ::content::   So far, cramming all my fish oil in toward sleep time seems to be working out okay without any major problems.

I now have no choice but to study DMAE some more.  I've had a good number of lucids stacking it with menthol and I am not convinced by the mainstream explanation of how it helps with dreaming (conversion into choline and/or acetylcholine.)

Something else worth noting about this LD: this was a WILD, when WILDs are somewhat unusual for me unless I have taken galantamine.  They do happen, but DILDs are just a lot more common.  I hadn't meant to pursue a WILD here, but conditions sort of emerged for one on their own.  I'll make note of this and see whether it repeats with this stack or any similar stack.

Mood was also really good.  I was pretty confident and easygoing during the dream, which is not only handy but makes the experience fun.  No idea if it's related to the stack, but again, a positive thing to note.

----------


## Xanous

I don't have time for a proper post but last night was menthol night. I got pretty much nothing. This time when I boiled the leaves I left the lid off. There was no menthol cool taste whatsoever. Is it possible that I boiled the menthol out? Maybe I'm better off steeping with that metal contraption I got.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> I don't have time for a proper post but last night was menthol night. I got pretty much nothing. This time when I boiled the leaves I left the lid off. There was no menthol cool taste whatsoever. Is it possible that I boiled the menthol out? Maybe I'm better off steeping with that metal contraption I got.



Hey man!  I should probably post up what I said in PM, so that it can be picked apart publicly.   :Cheeky: 

_"Gee! I don't know how much could boil off. Let me see. Okay, Google says that menthol's boiling point is 413.6 degrees fahrenheit. So it seems pretty unlikely that you'd actually get to the point where you had menthol vapor unless your water was just going nuts. (Water boils at 212, and if you make tea the way that I do, the water boils just briefly then the tea is steeped at a lower temperature.)

You could always lose some to evaporation. It doesn't seem like this would be very much, though, yeah? Interesting that the taste was gone. That is kind of odd."_

I really am intrigued that the taste was so distinctly gone when you did this.  I'm not much of a tea maker so perhaps this is some kind of huge no-no.

Even though the cough drops are a bit much to suck down, one thing that I do love about them is the precision.  (And the fact that they're so cheap and so easy.)  The tea sure does taste better, though!

----------


## Alyzarin

I can't really give any explanation in relation to the boiling point, but I can say that if the taste was gone that's probably a very bad sign. Those cold receptors are what menthol activates most strongly. If you don't get the cold sensation you're probably not going to get much of anything else, either.

----------


## Xanous

Interesting. Well I do boil it for several minutes and I always notice that if I put my face over the steam that there is a strong menthol smell and it burns my eyes. I dont know. Maybe the temp is gettig too high since I boiled it longer. Ill have to adjust how I do things from now on.

----------


## CanisLucidus

Here we go!  I found an explanation of how at high enough temperatures, you _could_ boil away your menthol along with steam, without reaching menthol's boiling point:

How menthol can boil away

It's a link to an excerpt from a book all bout mint.   ::chuckle::   Explains it very well, though!

The summary is that 99.6 C (about 211 F) is the temperature at which you could boil away some menthol.  That is right around (slightly below) the temperature at which your water will be boiling.  So just taking your water below the boiling point _should_ be enough to avoid most of this.

Could you try preparing your tea at a lower temperature?  If you boil water, then let its temperature descend and make the tea in that, the effect should be lessened.  Less temperature would mean less menthol boiling away.  And, like you said, covering is good too!

----------


## Alyzarin

Nice find, Canis! I never would have thought of that! :O

----------


## Xanous

OMG nice info! Thanks man. That sure explains a lot. So boiling is out and Ill probably check the temp before I steep. 

Yep, I have try again tonight.  :tongue2:  Ill post how it goes.

I guess I just started boiling like that because that seems best for mugwort Though I may reconsider that as well.

----------


## dutchraptor

Yup mint is meant to be steeped, generally it's better to use 70C-90C (Try experimenting) water when using fresh plants, not for all but for most. Secondly boiling it can destroy some compounds like vitamin c which is in high amounts in mint I believe.

----------


## Xanous

> Yup mint is meant to be steeped, generally it's better to use 70C-90C (Try experimenting) water when using fresh plants, not for all but for most. Secondly boiling it can destroy some compounds like vitamin c which is in high amounts in mint I believe.



Do you think the same rule applies to mugwort? Seeing how some people smoke it I thought it wouldn't matter but I suppose evaporation would be a vastly different thing.

----------


## dutchraptor

> Do you think the same rule applies to mugwort? Seeing how some people smoke it I thought it wouldn't matter but I suppose evaporation would be a vastly different thing.



I'd guess so, obviously smoking it would probably have a far stronger effect than ingesting it. I don't have much knowledge on the subject and it's hard to judge since each plant is different. I do think though that the possibilty is there to remove some chemicals which might have aided the effect if you poor pure boiling water onto it. 
For instance when you boil a nettle the stingers whittle and lose their poison making them edible and less irratible, this generally happens around 100 c. 

Another good tip is to poor the water slowly, I have no idea why but I've read it a few times. 

If you are using fresh plants try to collect them right after morning as the water evaporates from their leaves, at this time they will release their oil the easiest, and sometimes drying them can aid the process of releasing the oil too.

----------


## Tradl3s

i'm going to try 14mg of it tonight. Cheap Cough drops. -_- 7mg per drop. from the previous great results i've heard of, with as low as 15.6mg and such, i think i'll try higher doses later. But for now, im going to try 14mg.
*Sweet Dreams*  ::flyaway:: 
*- Tradl3s*

----------


## Tradl3s

> i'm going to try 14mg of it tonight. Cheap Cough drops. -_- 7mg per drop. from the previous great results i've heard of, with as low as 15.6mg and such, i think i'll try higher doses later. But for now, im going to try 14mg.
> *Sweet Dreams* 
> *- Tradl3s*



Who knows? maybe HALLS will be better or something. i'll have to steal some From my grandma  ::evil::  (Just kidding.)

----------


## Xanous

*Dose*: Pre-bed: 3g fish oil, 5mg melatonin WBTB: 18.2mg menthol (2 cough drops), 5 tablespoons peppermint leaves STEEPED, 3g fish oil, 250Mg Choline.
*Side Effects*: Felt wide awake for 10min or so then very exhausted.
*Sleep Duration*: 7 hours 40min
*WBTB*: Yes (20 minutes)
*Lucid*: No!
*Vividness*: 
*Stability*: 
*Dream Comments*: I worked the MILD tech with mantras pretty thoroughly but didn't have any luck. I feel like I slept too deeply. I recalled only a dim fragment but lost it because I failed to record it. Ive been very tired this week and haven't had much luck getting lucid. Of course, menthol is a great supporting supplement and not a trigger on its own... which is the point of the thread. Im not sure why I didn't get any dream enhancement this time. Maybe I was just too tired to recall it.  :Sad: 

BTW the tea was much better this time. Thanks for tips.  ::D:

----------


## Tradl3s

I tried 14mg last night. Even with my insomnia, and short recall, i did eventually recall something vivid. it was quite interesting  ::D: . I think menthol is Super effective for dreams.  :smiley:

----------


## Alyzarin

I'm glad you like it, Tradl3s.  :smiley:  I hope you have more success with it in the future!

----------


## Nerq

I started re-going over this thread last night and it inspired me to chew down a few cough drops before I went to bed.  I had so many lucid dreams.  Very vivid.  Last night I was particularly trying to practice dialating time throughout the dream, trying to remain in the dream state as long as possible.  At one point in the night I remember thinking, "Damn, I've been here a really long time."

Then I had several non lucid/semi lucid dreams afterwards, also very vivid.  Interesting.

----------


## Tradl3s

I read that extracting mint oils from mint leaves and drinking the mint oils is good. Mint oils contain alot of menthol. Check this out:
How to Extract Mint Oils from Leaves: 7 steps - wikiHow

----------


## Alyzarin

> I started re-going over this thread last night and it inspired me to chew down a few cough drops before I went to bed.  I had so many lucid dreams.  Very vivid.  Last night I was particularly trying to practice dialating time throughout the dream, trying to remain in the dream state as long as possible.  At one point in the night I remember thinking, "Damn, I've been here a really long time."
> 
> Then I had several non lucid/semi lucid dreams afterwards, also very vivid.  Interesting.



Very nice! Sounds like you had a pretty good time.  :smiley:  Do you have any idea how long that lucid actually was?

----------


## StaySharp

Time I post some results as well, even though I have nothing much to speak of.

During the past months I nearly completely switched to drinking only tea throughout the entire day, at home I used a mix of peppermint tea and a special concentration tea with lots of brain-goodies. Unfortunately the only thing so far is that the results where to small to be even sure I could account them to the tea (and by that the menthol in it) at all. I guess unless I find some awesome really mentholy candy by chance anywhere I guess this concludes me tests on menthol for now.

----------


## Xanous

*Dose*: 
Pre-bed: 3g fish oil, 1mg melatonin, 1000mg Taurine 
WBTB: 5 tablespoons peppermint leaves steeped for 5 min, 300mg DMAE
*Side Effects*: Slight insomnia before and after LD.
*Sleep Duration*: about 5 hours total
*WBTB*: Yes (30 minutes)
*Lucid*: YES!
*Vividness*:Visually low, Physically High. (normal for me)
*Stability*: Medium
*Dream Comments*: I was going for WILD but ended up with a DILD. I'm having a hard time recalling the NLD part but *something* triggered lucidity. I've been having some darkness issues lately that I need to work out but my tactile sensations and physical morphing abilities seem to be getting naturally stronger and easier. I wonder if we are like super heroes and each have our own set of special abilities in LDs?  ::lol:: 

Anyway heres the link:
Inisde The Claw Machine - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:*  Pre-bed: 2g fish oil  WBTB: 34.8mg menthol (6 cough drops), 250mg DMAE, 4g fish oil
*Side Effects:* Mild insomnia
*Sleep Duration:* 7.5 hours
*WBTB:* Yes (40 minutes)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* High
*Stability:* ?
*Dream Comments:* Most dreams were sexy.  Mood was pretty good but not quite as comical as some menthol dreams.  One dream was non-sexy but was thematically interesting.

The dreams:

1. (Anti-dogmatic?) Reading through magazines in a library.  The magazines offer moving pictures and voice narration that tell different stories about people casting off dogmas in various subjects.  (Different academic areas, weight training, others)
2. (Semi-sexy) Something about meeting a very attractive woman with salt and pepper hair who is 50 years old.
3. (Sexy!) Wife and I are sleeping on some mattress in a public square with tons of people always walking by.  I spend tons of time convincing her to have sex in spite of feeling extremely self-conscious.  (Semi-successfully)
4. (Sexy) Wandering a city where every DC is a super-attractive female.  (This has happened before.)

----------


## Nerq

I actually couldn't piece together how long I'd been in there at that point after I woke up.   Unfortunetly, I believe that I did have success prolonging the legnth of my dream.  But my memory just couldn't prove it.

Tonight I'm planning to copy that format you guys have for documenting your experements.  So I'll have filled it out by sometime tomorrow.  I've started chewing on some cough drops just about a half hour ago, and I'll have probably eaten about 6-7 by the time I go to sleep.  So, here' goes.

----------


## Nerq

*Dose:* 7 cough drops, spread out between 8:15 p.m. - 10:30 p.m. + A One a Day Men's Multivitamin/Mineral Supplent at 9:30.  

*Side Effects*: None.
*Sleep Duration*: About 9 hours.
*WBTB*: Yes.

*Lucid*: Yes.
*Vividness*: Good.
*Stability*: Decent. 

*Dream Comments*: I had a very large amount of seperate dreams last night.  I had a few lucid scenes in the middle, where I flew around, talked to people and did a few things as usual.  One thing I noticed was that in my dream, it seemed like it was an overly bright summer day.  So in a sense, it was very bright, but it had a darkened tone as if I would have been squinting.  Even though I wasn't squinting.  So it was vivid and stable, but at the same time at some kind of strained.  Fun, and interesting none the less.


*Additional Comments*: My One a Day men's supplement has some vitamins and minerals that I've heard being related to dreaming as well.  Such as Vitamin B6, Niacin and a few others.  Something to keep in mind.

----------


## Woodstock

I'm going to try this tonight.

----------


## Xanous

*Dose*: Pre-bed: 3g fish oil WBTB: mugwort tea, 54.6 menthol (6 crushed cough drops)
*Side Effects*: None
*Sleep Duration*: 10hrs
*WBTB*: Yes (10 minutes, very tired)
*Lucid*: Yes (fragment)
*Vividness*: High
*Stability*: ?
*Dream Comments*: I had horrible recall all night but got a lucid fragment and a twisted NLD.

I do remember one non lucid were I going to play so kids brass baritone. But when I looked at the mouth piece it was full of spit. I turned it upside down and a ton of clear liquid poured out then some thick white substance that made me think of seminal fluid. I became sick, started to gag, then woke up. I later recall a lucid fragment that I feel is part of a larger dream.

Lucid, I was sitting on the edge of the bathtub in the dark bathroom when I saw a dark shadow pass by the bedroom door. At first I was scared and thought ghost but then for some reason I knew that is must be JoannaB. Then I felt myself in the recliner and sudden intense vibrations. It lasted only a few seconds and I woke up. I tried DEILD to no avail then did a nose plug to be sure.

Edit: Something just jogged my memory. I saw Alyzarin and thought "Oh that's what she looks like in real life." I vividly remember her face but have no other recollection of the dream. For whatever reason she looked a lot like Jayma Mays  ::whyme::

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:*  Pre-bed: 2g fish oil  WBTB: 34.8mg menthol (6 cough drops), 4800mg soy lecithin, 900mg Valerian Root, 4g fish oil
*Side Effects:* Moderate insomnia
*Sleep Duration:* 6.5 hours
*WBTB:* Yes (30 minutes)
*Lucid:* Yes!
*Vividness:* High
*Stability:* Moderate
*Dream Comments:* Very imaginative LD with lots of weird stuff going on.  Had difficulty becoming lucid -- missed lots of dreamsigns.  Low intelligence -- Valerian?

The lucid dream: Vehicle Fire - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Worked like a charm!  I had a nice, reasonably long LD with a vivid and interesting NLD lead-up.  All of the menthol weirdness was on hand.  Imagination seemed to be exceptionally active and dream length was good.  The dream was not exceedingly sexy.  Still, as is typical in any menthol dream where I encounter Wife, I seriously considered pursuing sex.   ::chuckle:: 

I had some insomnia issues, in spite of the Valerian Root.  I did wind up getting back to sleep, but it took some time.  I'll need to think about that a bit.  It really does seem like insomnia can be an issue once you ingest enough menthol.

Another interesting thing with this dream is that my cognitive abilities and dream control were on the low side.  I remembered Task of the Month but got the details a bit scrambled.  My conjuration was a little messed up, too, and lots of dreamlike stuff kept happening all on its own without me thinking about it.  This was my first time hitting an LD where I used Valerian Root for anti-insomnia, so I'll have to keep an eye out for whether it seems to dull the mind.

And heaven help me, but I'm getting a little tired of sucking down 6 cough drops.   :tongue2:   Maybe I'll try dropping back to 4 drops and see if I still get sufficient D2 activation but maybe a little less insomnia.  Or maybe swap back to making peppermint tea for a couple of trials.   :smiley:   I like the greater precision of using cough drops, but the taste is catching up with me!

All in all, a great night!   ::goodjob2::

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:*  Pre-bed: 2g fish oil  WBTB: 23.2mg menthol (6 cough drops), 250mg DMAE, 900mg Valerian Root, 4g fish oil
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* 6.5 hours
*WBTB:* Yes (20 minutes)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Completely lifelike (!)
*Stability:* n/a
*Dream Comments:* One of the most vivid NLDs of my life.

I can't think of any other experience where menthol more lived up to the thread title: "Menthol as a dream enhancer".

The dream itself is too personal to share, but the memory of the dream feels almost exactly like a waking life memory.  It was much less "imaginative" than a typical menthol dream.  Also, the dream was pretty much 100% non-sexy.  The mood was reflective, content, and philosophical.

Probably one of the most striking dreams of my life.  It was a little tough waking up from it and realizing that none of it had actually happened.

I think that I want to bring menthol back in for my next galantamine night.  If menthol is activating D2 in the way that Aly's theory suggests it might, there could be huge synergy in this combination.

----------


## dutchraptor

> I can't think of any other experience where menthol more lived up to the thread title: "Menthol as a dream enhancer".
> 
> The dream itself is too personal to share, but the memory of the dream feels almost exactly like a waking life memory.  It was much less "imaginative" than a typical menthol dream.  Also, the dream was pretty much 100% non-sexy.  The mood was reflective, content, and philosophical.
> 
> Probably one of the most striking dreams of my life.  It was a little tough waking up from it and realizing that none of it had actually happened.
> 
> I think that I want to bring menthol back in for my next galantamine night.  If menthol is activating D2 in the way that Aly's theory suggests it might, there could be huge synergy in this combination.



Woo you had one too. I had a pretty insane dream on menthol once too, it wasn't my best ever but it was pretty freaking amazing. It seems that whenever I have a good menthol night my dreams seem to be filled full of philosophical debates and moral question...and weird geometric shapes, it's almost like the movie waking life  :tongue2:

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:*  Pre-bed: 2g fish oil, 100mg B6, 100mg 5-htp  WBTB: 30.8mg menthol (2 cough drops), 4mg galantamine, 300mg alpha-gpc, 450mg choline salts, 900mg Valerian Root, 4g fish oil
*Side Effects:* None, really.  Fell asleep very easily during WBTB.
*Sleep Duration:* 5.5 hours  :Pissed: 
*WBTB:* Yes, at wrong time (90 minutes)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Completely lifelike (again!)
*Stability:* n/a
*Dream Comments:* Very vivid, imaginative dreams

My dog went nuts last nights at 2 in the morning, thereby ruining my "special galantamine/menthol night".   :Mad:   Still!  In spite of not getting lucid and getting very little sleep, I was treated to a night of very, very vivid and imaginative dreams.

The dreams were much more imaginative and fanciful this time than the last.  Many different areas of history, life, and my interests were blended together into a really interesting night.  I'd have very much liked to experience it all while lucid, but it was still a pretty amazing night of dreaming.  I did randomly kiss one DC for reasons that are still unclear to me, but on the whole last night's dreams were not sexy.

After talking with Xanous, I'm beginning to think that I may be overdoing the Valerian Root a bit.  With all those supps, I should have some struggle getting back to sleep, but it is _easy_ with the valerian.  That is probably a bad sign, so I'll adjust or remove it entirely.  If I run into serious insomnia, I could also go back to relying on L-theanine for a little settling effect.

----------


## Alyzarin

I'm loving the successes, guys!  ::D:  You seem like you're really starting to get heavy into the supplements in general, too! These are some awesome combos you guys are taking lol.

Particularly this one:





> *Dose:*  Pre-bed: 2g fish oil, 100mg B6, 100mg 5-htp  WBTB: 30.8mg *menthol* (2 cough drops), 4mg *galantamine*, 300mg alpha-gpc, 450mg choline salts, 900mg *Valerian Root*, 4g fish oil



Three different plant-based aids! That sounds like my kind of trip! No wonder your dreams were so "imaginative and fanciful".  ::o: 

Just so you know what you're getting yourself into here... valerian root also has psychedelic properties in high doses. I've heard it compared visually to LSD and DMT, but "different" and much lighter, on separate occasions. Given the fact that it works through separate GABA channels than menthol too and in fact contains GABA itself, there could also be some synergistic potentiation there. I believe that many of valerian's psychedelic effects may actually be serotonergic though, the classical way. Check this out:




On the top left is DMT. The top right is psilocin, which is the psychedelic compound in mushrooms, and the active metabolite of psilocybin. On the bottom left is valerenic acid, one of the active compounds in valerian root. And lastly, on the bottom right is LSD.

When you see this all right next to each other, it's easy to see how their could be some pharmacological overlap. Valerenic acid plays a major role in the GABA effects, but it's also been shown to bind to at least 5-HT5A receptors. They act as autoreceptors and lowers the release of serotonin to regulate the sleep-wake cycle. That leads to REM-like states of mind and plays a role in the effects of psychedelics which lower serotonin through an array of autoreceptors. It's possible it has other actions at serotonin receptors too, but I'm not sure. Everything I've heard suggests that it might, though. Galantamine is also much more than just an acetylcholine booster and has some dopamine-releasing properties as well in the prefrontal cortex, and it's been known to potentiate the effects of psychedelics.

So all in all, you've got a lot of outside influence here which does much more than just enhance your natural processes like a vitamin or nutrient. My guess is that the reason your dreams are becoming so powerful and vivid is because you're starting to push beyond the realm of just taking healthy supplements for dreams and into something more akin to a nightly shamanic voyage.  ::chuckle::

----------


## CanisLucidus

Right on, Aly, awesome info as usual!  What kind of valerian doses do people employ for recreational use?  With 900mg I'm already getting KTFO'd.   :tongue2: 

You know, the G + menthol combination has never failed to impress me.  (Xanous had a G+menthol mega-lucid last night which he'll probably post up in here later.)  I already suspected lots of synergy between G and menthol, but you're suggesting additional angles that I hadn't even considered.  For me, the worry with that combo is strictly insomnia, which I was letting the valerian take care of.  It looks like that may have been TOO effective at knocking me out, and I went under too quickly to WILD.

Hey, I never knew that G potentiated the effects of some psychedelics!   ::o:   That's really cool to find out.

Ahh, fun fun stuff.  I find myself... _overwhelmed with options_.   ::happy:: 





> you're starting to push beyond the realm of just taking healthy supplements for dreams and into something more akin to a *nightly shamanic voyage*.



LOL, nice.  The "Location" section of my profile does need updating -- "nightly shamanic voyage" may be just the thing.   ::chuckle::

----------


## Alyzarin

Well, much higher than that, that's for sure.  ::chuckle::  There isn't really a standard for psychedelic effects from valerian, most people don't use it for that and there seems to be a lot of variance in how easily people can get those effects from it. Not surprising considering that a) valerian extracts can range from effective to essentially worthless and b) its GABAergic effects are stronger than its serotonergic effects, and since GABA drugs are generally used to abort psychedelic trips I'm sure there's a narrow margin for what's a good dose.... To give an example of how widely it varies though, I've heard of people getting trippy effects from ~4 grams of extract and others not getting them from ~10. However, whenever I hear people talk about using the actual root there's usually something, the most recent one I read was someone who used 25-50 grams and could definitely feel a serotonergic stimulation regularly. There seem to be a lot of factors involved, but given what I've heard I would probably only use the whole root for a strong effect, but most people who use it recreational are only using it for the GABA stuff anyway.... I took 3.5 grams of extract once and didn't get much more than tired, but I did sleep really well lol.

Oh yeah, galantamine is a cool substance. I'm sure it enhances all kinds of things. I'm also very interested in the combination of it and menthol.... I wonder if it's simply additive or actually synergistic? And I wonder how much they know about galantamine, like if it hits any other obscure sites besides things related to acetylcholine....

Isn't it great, though? There are so many wonderful supplements out there just begging to be used.  ::D:

----------


## CanisLucidus

> I took 3.5 grams of extract once and didn't get much more than tired, but I did sleep really well lol.



Oh yeah, that would knock me out for sure!  I'm not going to try to replicate the 3.5 grams feat.  The last time I went head to head with you on melatonin I wound up just embarrassing myself.   ::chuckle:: 





> Oh yeah, galantamine is a cool substance. I'm sure it enhances all kinds of things. I'm also very interested in the combination of it and menthol.... I wonder if it's simply additive or actually synergistic? And I wonder how much they know about galantamine, like if it hits any other obscure sites besides things related to acetylcholine....



I don't know, but I really wonder the same thing!  The most straightforward explanation is to simply say, hey, menthol seems to yield an increase in interesting, imaginative dreaming (via D2, presumably), and the more dreaming you're doing, the more you're giving G to work with to create interesting, engaging lucids.  But is that the whole truth?  Is there something more?

Science demands answers.  We carry the weight of history on our shoulders.   :Cheeky: 

Am I remembering right that you've not really done much with G before?  Had you ever considered giving it a shot?

----------


## Alyzarin

*Peppermint Tea Update!!*

This is a cool one.  ::D:  It involves menthol too, but it's even more important to peppermint tea as a whole. So check it out, first of all menthol was verified to have dopamine-promoting actions as a stimulant:

Evidence for the involvement of dopamine in ... [J Pharmacol Sci. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI




> *Abstract*
> 
> The present study examines the mechanism that underlies the ability of menthol (ME), a major constituent of peppermint oil, to promote mouse ambulation. We initially confirmed that bupropion (BUP), a dopamine (DA) uptake inhibitor, promotes ambulation in ICR mice. Since the subcutaneous administration of ME produced similar effects in mice, we investigated the effects of ME on ambulation when combined with BUP. The results showed that BUP potentiated the effect of ME on mouse ambulation. We then examined effects of the DA antagonists chlorpromazine, haloperidol, fluphenazine, spiperone, and SCH12679 on the ability of BUP and ME to promote ambulation. All of these DA antagonists attenuated the effects of BUP and ME. Prior exposure to reserpine, which depletes monoamines, caused decreased sensitivity to the ability of BUP and of ME in promoting ambulation. The tyrosine hydroxylase inhibitor alpha-methyl-p-tyrosine, similarly decreased subsequent sensitivity to the effects of BUP and ME. These results suggest that DA is involved in the abilities of ME and BUP to promote ambulation in mice.



But that's not even the best part. Menthone and pulegone, two other peppermint tea constituents of which the former was briefly discussed much earlier in this thread, were shown to share this dopaminergic activity!

Evidence for dopamine involvement in... [Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI




> *Abstract*
> 
> The present study examines the mechanism that underlies the ability of menthone (MTN), a constituent of peppermint oil, to promote mouse ambulation. Since bupropion (BUP), a dopamine (DA) uptake inhibitor, promotes mouse ambulation, the effect of MTN combined with BUP on ambulation was investigated. The results showed that BUP with MTN produced an additive interaction on mouse ambulation. The effects of DA antagonists chlorpromazine, fluphenazine, haloperidol, SCH12679 and spiperone on the ability of MTN to promote ambulation were then examined. All of these antagonists attenuated the effects of MTN. Prior exposure to the tyrosine hydroxylase inhibitor alpha-methyl-p-tyrosine, which inhibits catecholamines synthesis, decreased subsequent sensitivity to the effect of MTN. These results suggest that DA is involved in the ability of MTN to promote ambulation in mice.



Evidence for dopamine involvement in... [Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI




> *Abstract*
> 
> I investigated whether dopamine (DA) is involved in the ambulation promoted by pulegone (PUL), a constituent of peppermint oil, in ICR mouse. Co-administration of PUL and bupropion (BUP) had an additive effect on their ambulation-promoting activities. When administered with PUL, the DA antagonists chlorpromazine, fluphenazine, haloperidol, SCH12679, and spiperone all attenuated the effect of PUL on ambulation. In addition, pretreatment with the DA depletor reserpine produced no subsequent sensitivity to the effect of PUL. Taken together, DA may be involved in the ability of PUL to promote ambulation in ICR mice but PUL may not be a direct DA agonist. The chemical structure of PUL is similar to menthol and menthone, and thus they may all be acting through a common mechanism.



If you still haven't realized the best part of this, then let me spell it out for you: as far as I know, there is no known constant between these three chemicals to cause this effect. This means that they may all be causing this dopamine increase through yet another unexplored mechanism!! It also means that using peppermint tea over straight menthol should increase the ratio of dopaminergic effects to menthol's other activity, which could be quite useful and which may have contributed to the known activity of peppermint tea as an aphrodisiac. I don't have much else to say about this yet, but I think it certainly adds to the credibility of using the tea for experimentation!

----------


## Alyzarin

> Oh yeah, that would knock me out for sure!  I'm not going to try to replicate the 3.5 grams feat.  The last time I went head to head with you on melatonin I wound up just embarrassing myself.



Hahaha, well no worries, I don't think there would be much of a point to it anyway.  :tongue2:  You'd probably be out like a log for a long night of dreamless sleep lol.





> I don't know, but I really wonder the same thing!  The most straightforward explanation is to simply say, hey, menthol seems to yield an increase in interesting, imaginative dreaming (via D2, presumably), and the more dreaming you're doing, the more you're giving G to work with to create interesting, engaging lucids.  But is that the whole truth?  Is there something more?
> 
> Science demands answers.  We carry the weight of history on our shoulders.  
> 
> Am I remembering right that you've not really done much with G before?  Had you ever considered giving it a shot?



Well then, we'll certainly have to do more research, won't we?  ::D:  By which I mean I'll probably start the moment I finish this post.  ::rolleyes:: 

I've used it as a memory supplement to make up for abusing diphenhydramine, but I've only tried it for dreams once before going to bed and I think I got distracted and didn't try to remember much in the morning, I can't recall exactly now though. I do have some GalantaMind so I'm thinking about going for it again, it would be nice to have another really vivid lucid....

----------


## dutchraptor

@Aly 
This means I was right about peppermint tea all along?  ::banana:: 
This is so cool, I knew menthol wouldn't be the only thing in there affecting our brain, in most peppermint plants its actually in a 1:1 ration to menthone.

Side note: must buy some valerian, mugwort and any other dream enhancing plants I can find so I can grow them myself.
Does valerian grow natively in America, over here we only have fake valerian which isn't even related to it  :Sad:

----------


## Xanous

WhooHoo go tea! Great find Aly! That must be why I've had so much more luck with peppermint tea than cough drops or oil. BTW I temporarily lost access for some crazy reason. I'm really glad to be back. lol. I had some peppermint tea with Glantamine Friday night with some awesome results.

*Dose*: Pre-bed: 3Grams Fish Oil, 200-5HTP, 5 melatonin WBTB: 1/4 cup peppermint leaves steeped. 8MG Galantamine, 250MG Choline, 300MG GPC, 100MG L-Theanine.
*Side Effects*: NONE except for some sexual content.  ::hump:: 
*Sleep Duration*: 8hours
*WBTB*: Yes 
*Lucid*: Yes X 2
*Vividness*: High
*Stability*: High
*Dream Comments*: The first dream was super long. Judging from the time I got into the WILD to the time I woke from the dream it was around 45-60min long. My Headless Double - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views. The second dream was much later and was shorter. Pretty Floors - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views. I think menthol played a huge role in the ease and length of the first dream. I was VERY pleased.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> This means that they may all be causing this dopamine increase through yet another unexplored mechanism!! It also means that using peppermint tea over straight menthol should increase the ratio of dopaminergic effects to menthol's other activity, which could be quite useful and which may have contributed to the known activity of peppermint tea as an aphrodisiac. I don't have much else to say about this yet, but I think it certainly adds to the credibility of using the tea for experimentation!



Really exciting info, Aly!  Between this and the fact that the cough drop taste is kind of wearing thin, I may have to go back to peppermint tea.  The lack of precision in terms of menthol content is always going to bother me, but it looks like it's not all about the menthol anyway!  Thanks for digging all of this up!

This thread is awesome.   ::content:: 





> I've used it as a memory supplement to make up for abusing diphenhydramine, but I've only tried it for dreams once before going to bed and I think I got distracted and didn't try to remember much in the morning, I can't recall exactly now though. I do have some GalantaMind so I'm thinking about going for it again, it would be nice to have another really vivid lucid....



Ah, cool!  I know you don't enjoy WBTB, but for G it's probably a good idea.  Xanous tried G at bedtime once and as I recall it didn't work very well and led to kind of a lousy night's sleep.  I've yet to find a primary lucid aid that is as powerful as G.  And G + menthol  has been amazing so far!

----------


## Highlander

Wed April 17th 2013

*Dose:* Green tea (0.5 pt) Vitamin B6 (x1) = 10 mg. Zinc (x2) = 20 mg. Banana (x1)
*Side Effects:* Ok (although I did have a very bad throat/cough.)
*Sleep Duration:* 4.75 hrs (approx)/ 4.75 hrs (approx) after
*WBTB:* Yes (45 min)
*Lucid:* Yes (twice)
*Vividness:* High
*Stability:* High
*Dream Comments:* FA(s)? and Vibrations. Memorable DILD recorded. Clear thought, stability and control. Ability to manipulate the dream environment. Overcome fears.
(N.B. I did consume a whole stick pack of Menthodex, (bar one cough drop) yesterday afternoon due to MEDICAL REASONS ONLY.) I presume there would still be Menthol residing in my body for up to 48 hrs, hence the reason why I include this entry.
The Zinc was for the same medical reasons as well.

Stepping over the edge. (DILD x2) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


Thur April 18th 2013

*Dose:* (Bed) Zinc (x1) = 10 mg. (WBTB) Green tea (0.5 pt) Menthodex (x3) = ?? mg. Banana (x1)
*Side Effects:* Slight heartburn (from the Green Tea?) *Chronic insomnia
*Sleep Duration:* 4-5 hrs (approx)/ 4-5 hrs (approx) after
*WBTB:* Yes (59 min)
*Lucid:* Yes (DILD)
*Vividness:* Good
*Stability:* Good
*Dream Comments:* OBE dream. (Memorable)
*(The noisy windy weather was a factor too, plus I still had a bit of a cough. I also had an idea for a really cool project pop in my head which I kept mulling over.)


http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/high...tc-dild-45583/

My 2 pence worth!  ::roll::

----------


## Xanous

I went with the same Galantamine/Menthol formula as last week with the same results. Very long intense lucid dreams with, unfortunately, sexual side effects. My first round of dreams were dark and unstable but I think it was due to the few beers I had before bed. I'll probably continue to use menthol with galantamine for as long as I still have a galantamine supply.

----------


## Woodstock

I tried twice and didn't notice anything. But I also only ate 3. I have a lot of peppermint tea, maybe that will work better. I just wish it tasted as good as it smells.

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## MatthewMoisen

Would the use of intranasal menthol be effective? I partake in snuff tobacco and have mentholated varieties.

----------


## Xanous

> Would the use of intranasal menthol be effective? I partake in snuff tobacco and have mentholated varieties.



Interesting idea. But as you may or may not know, nicotine has it's own set of dream enhancement properties. Personally, I wouldn't suggest going that route but that's up to you.

----------


## CanisLucidus

This menthol run was from the 17th of April, so it's a few nights old.

*Dose:*  Pre-bed: 200mg 5-HTP, 500mg niacin, 3g fish oil  WBTB: 4 bags peppermint tea, 8mg galantamine, 400mg choline citrate, 300mg alpha-GPC, 200mg L-theanine
*Side Effects:* Some highly amorous dream content.
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
*WBTB:* Yes.  (30 minutes)
*Lucid:* Yes!   ::D: 
*Vividness:* Very high.
*Stability:* Good.
*Dream Comments:* One extremely long, extremely amorous non-lucid.  Then a very un-sexy lucid dream.

For the lucid dream, menthol did its usual work of enhancing the dream, making it more imaginative and (possibly?) lengthening it.  Very vivid, peaceful, and relaxing, and set in an unusual landscape with cool visuals.  And my first lucid dream tasting something really delicious!   :drool:   I very much enjoyed it.

Here's the DJ entry for the lucid dream: Rock Candy - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Before that was a long non-lucid where I was wandering around various locales with my wife.  Then we'd look for some place to do something menthol-y and have some fun.  Afterward, we'd wander around some more exploring.  I'm not gonna lie -- this dream was awesome.   ::D: 

The galantamine + menthol combo is amazing.

----------


## CanisLucidus

This menthol run was from the night of April 20th.

*Dose:*  Pre-bed: 100mg 5-HTP, 4g fish oil  WBTB: 4 bags peppermint tea, 600mg Alpha-GPC, 500mg choline bitartrate
*Side Effects:* Some very violent content.
*Sleep Duration:* 7.5 hours
*WBTB:* Yes.  (30 minutes)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Very high.
*Stability:* n/a
*Dream Comments:* All of the dreams were fun, but the first one was extremely violent

There were several great non-lucids on this night.  The first one was a really cool, action-packed dream but it was incredibly violent all the way through.  It involved me pursuing a crazed dark wizard as he rampaged and killed his way across the United States.  I'd keep seeing him doing these terrible acts of destruction and even killing friends and people I knew.  I caught up to him and the dream had a happy but _extremely_ gory and graphic ending.  It's unusual for me to have any fighting/killing dreams, so this one stood out.  It's also the first really violent menthol dream that I can remember.

Also had a cool, long dream at an outdoor festival and then another where I played a game of tennis in a dark tennis court in my bedroom.  I kept complaining about my depth perception and (I believe) came pretty close to lucidity.

----------


## Xanous

> The first one was a really cool, action-packed dream but it was incredibly violent all the way through.  It involved me pursuing a crazed dark wizard as he rampaged and killed his way across the United States.  I'd keep seeing him doing these terrible acts of destruction and even killing friends and people I knew.  I caught up to him and the dream had a happy but _extremely_ gory and graphic ending.  It's unusual for me to have any fighting/killing dreams, so this one stood out.  It's also the first really violent menthol dream that I can remember.



Was it Flagg the wizard?  ::lol::  Sounds like a really cool dream.

----------


## Highlander

Sun April 21st 2013

*Dose:* Menthodex (x2) = ?? mg. Apple Juice (0.5 pt) Vitamin B6 (x1) = 10 mg
*Side Effects:* A slightly grumbling stomach. Felt randy 
*Sleep Duration:* 5 hrs (approx)/ 4.5 – 5.25 hrs (approx) after
*WBTB:* Yes (38 min)
*Lucid:* No 
*Vividness:* Very good
*Stability:* Not applicable
*Dream Comments:* Strong hypnagogic (face) type visuals post-WBTB. Excellent recall and storylines. Sexual themes. Nightmarish scenario. Erection noted.

Sexy time. Art, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## dutchraptor

> This menthol run was from the night of April 20th.
> 
> *Dose:*  Pre-bed: 100mg 5-HTP, 4g fish oil  WBTB: 4 bags peppermint tea, 600mg Alpha-GPC, 500mg choline bitartrate
> *Side Effects:* Some very violent content.
> *Sleep Duration:* 7.5 hours
> *WBTB:* Yes.  (30 minutes)
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* Very high.
> *Stability:* n/a
> ...



How often do you take that specific combo of drugs? I've been looking around the internet for daily limits and ld50 and you seem to be taking quite substantial amounts of most things. Take the niacin for example, I thought the daily limit for most people is 40 or so, do you never feel any side effects?

----------


## CanisLucidus

> How often do you take that specific combo of drugs? I've been looking around the internet for daily limits and ld50 and you seem to be taking quite substantial amounts of most things. Take the niacin for example, I thought the daily limit for most people is 40 or so, do you never feel any side effects?



Hey Dutch!  As for this specific combo, I generally take GPC and choline bitartrate (or citrate) once per week (w/ galantamine) but I was trying this combo as a test to see what the effect would be like w/o galantamine.  My typical dose for GPC is 300mg w/ galantamine, but I went higher here to see what the effect might be.  On G days, I typically will consume 400-500mg choline citrate and/or bitartrate.

The niacin is something that I have only tried twice (the second time on the 17th.)  Since I really hate the idea of dying, I re-checked the LD50.   :Cheeky:   The oral LD50 in mice for niacin was 4.5g / kg of bodyweight.  Since I'm taking 500mg (and I'm much, much bigger than a rat) I should be well under that.  I saw that niacin dosages of up to 2g-3g multiple times per day are used for treating high cholesterol, so I wasn't too concerned.  And to be embarrassingly blunt, my niacin caps come in a 500mg size and I am reluctant to bust them open.   :Cheeky: 

I assume you're not really interested in the fish oil, but I've taken that for years, generally in the 6g-9g range, mostly for health and body composition benefits.

The 5-HTP is the one I'm probably the most cautious about.  I used to take no more than 100mg per week but recently I've allowed myself a second night of it.  I know therapeutic doses of 5-htp can be in the range of 100mg-300mg 3x per day, and I'm keeping myself to 200mg-300mg _per week_.  I am cautious about elevating serum serotonin levels, though, because it could have possible side effects on the heart.  So I watch this one the closest out of anything that I consume!

By the way, do you want to know the one time that I got a negative side effect from a lucid aid?  _When I ate mangoes, I came into contact with the skin and gave myself mango mouth!_  :Oh noes:   It's like a minor case of poison ivy on the face.  So I learned well that caution is always a good idea with anything you put in (or on) your body!  (I have really sensitive skin.)

Thanks for bringing this up and checking my homework -- I genuinely appreciate it!  I'm open to any thoughts or challenges you have to any of the above.

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:*  Pre-bed: 6mg melatonin  WBTB: 4 bags peppermint tea, 8mg galantamine, 300mg Alpha-GPC, 400mg choline citrate, 200mg L-theanine
*Side Effects:* None.
*Sleep Duration:* 6.5 hours
*WBTB:* Yes.  (30 minutes)
*Lucid:* Only a micro-lucid (not counted)
*Vividness:* Very high.
*Stability:* n/a
*Dream Comments:* Huge amount of dreaming, nearly all of it very vivid and realistic.  Less imaginative than usual w/ menthol.

Tons and tons of dreaming.  Wow.  I only had ~2 hours of dream time after my WBTB but it seriously felt like 4-5 hours of dream content.  Crazy amounts of dreams, most of it very lifelike.

I did hit one micro-lucid dream that lasted perhaps 5 seconds, but it was so short and recall for it was so poor that it doesn't count for much.  Frankly, I'm pretty embarrassed that I failed to have a full lucid dream with galantamine + menthol and *so much* vivid dream content!   :Oops:   How did I manage to blow it like that?  That failure aside, it was still a very cool night of non-lucid dreaming.

Interestingly, there was far less "fantastic" or imaginative content than usual in this series.  Most of the dreams were extremely realistic.  In one dream in particular I was practicing grappling and all of it felt quite real.  Very little happened that was truly off the wall.

What I've noticed overall is that menthol doesn't necessarily help me to become lucid but it seems to really crank up the amount and vividness of my dreams.  Love it.   :smiley:

----------


## dutchraptor

> Hey Dutch!  As for this specific combo, I generally take GPC and choline bitartrate (or citrate) once per week (w/ galantamine) but I was trying this combo as a test to see what the effect would be like w/o galantamine.  My typical dose for GPC is 300mg w/ galantamine, but I went higher here to see what the effect might be.  On G days, I typically will consume 400-500mg choline citrate and/or bitartrate.
> 
> The niacin is something that I have only tried twice (the second time on the 17th.)  Since I really hate the idea of dying, I re-checked the LD50.    The oral LD50 in mice for niacin was 4.5g / kg of bodyweight.  Since I'm taking 500mg (and I'm much, much bigger than a rat) I should be well under that.  I saw that niacin dosages of up to 2g-3g multiple times per day are used for treating high cholesterol, so I wasn't too concerned.  And to be embarrassingly blunt, my niacin caps come in a 500mg size and I am reluctant to bust them open.  
> 
> I assume you're not really interested in the fish oil, but I've taken that for years, generally in the 6g-9g range, mostly for health and body composition benefits.
> 
> The 5-HTP is the one I'm probably the most cautious about.  I used to take no more than 100mg per week but recently I've allowed myself a second night of it.  I know therapeutic doses of 5-htp can be in the range of 100mg-300mg 3x per day, and I'm keeping myself to 200mg-300mg _per week_.  I am cautious about elevating serum serotonin levels, though, because it could have possible side effects on the heart.  So I watch this one the closest out of anything that I consume!
> 
> By the way, do you want to know the one time that I got a negative side effect from a lucid aid?  _When I ate mangoes, I came into contact with the skin and gave myself mango mouth!_   It's like a minor case of poison ivy on the face.  So I learned well that caution is always a good idea with anything you put in (or on) your body!  (I have really sensitive skin.)
> ...



Hey, thanks for writing all this up  ::D:  very interesting read. Where do you get your lucid aids? I wanna try some but they are quite costly  :Sad: 
About the rat ld50, it can very deceiving. In looking for the ld50 of menthol it was extremely confusing since in many experiments the ld50 for menthol in rats was actually higher than in humans. Accounts of something called "glacial mouth" I think appear a lot more frequently in doses near 1-2g for humans than in rats at almost 3g. Off-course it's hard to OD on must of these aids without repetitive use but it's always good to be on the cautious side. 
Also, how do you feel about gpc? is it similar to normal choline bitartrate?

----------


## CanisLucidus

> Hey, thanks for writing all this up  very interesting read. Where do you get your lucid aids? I wanna try some but they are quite costly



Sure thing, man!  Glad you enjoyed it.  I get most of the more "exotic" items online, but of course run of the mill items like soy lecithin, B vitamins, melatonin, etc. are easy to find at any drug store (and probably many grocery stores.)  For most of the substances I use a fitness supplement site that tends to have good prices for stuff like GPC, L-theanine, etc.  Some stuff (like galantamine) I get on Amazon or directly from the vendor.  I keep a spreadsheet that has different vendors and their price in $/gram so I can more easily select which one to use and organize orders. _(Nerd!!)_

The site I use does appear to do international orders but I have no clue what the rates might be like, but if there's anything in particular you're looking for, feel free to PM me and I can shoot you the best price that _I_ know about for it.





> About the rat ld50, it can very deceiving. In looking for the ld50 of menthol it was extremely confusing since in many experiments the ld50 for menthol in rats was actually higher than in humans. Accounts of something called "glacial mouth" I think appear a lot more frequently in doses near 1-2g for humans than in rats at almost 3g. Off-course it's hard to OD on must of these aids without repetitive use but it's always good to be on the cautious side.



Oh man, that's interesting about the difference in menthol LD50!  I'm embarrassed to say that I've never even heard of "glacial mouth".   ::o:   Is that a side effect of high niacin intake or high menthol intake?  In any case, you are right on... spacing these aids out a whole lot and staying under common therapeutic doses is always the way to go.  My rule of thumb is that I want to keep use of any aid substantially under some well-established therapeutic dose, double-check LD50, and double-check side effects.





> Also, how do you feel about gpc? is it similar to normal choline bitartrate?



The biggest difference is that GPC is more expensive.   :Cheeky:   Seriously, though, the research on GPC as a therapeutic substance has been pretty impressive.  This paper is a great (but long) round-up on what's out there: http://www.dockidd.com/pdf2/GPCMindBody,4_14_05.pdf  One additional thing that Thomas Yuschak mentioned in his book (that I have not confirmed myself) is that choline salts like choline bitartrate have more difficulty cross the BBB as levels of free choline in the brain rise.

If you're specifically interested in G, I highly recommend Thomas Yuschak's "Advanced Lucid Dreaming: The Power of Supplements" book.  That one is up on lulu.com for $5 and it's a very good, specific guidebook on how to make the most of G.

----------


## Alyzarin

Man, you guys are really going all out with this stuff! Menthol and galantamine does sound like a sweet combo, I'm going to have to give it a try.  :smiley: 

Hey Canis, that violent one is really interesting! Don't forget though that this experiment was inspired by violent menthol dreams. Based on the way menthol works, it would make sense that it could enhance aggression and dark themes, too. It sounds intense!

You're pumping this thread full of results too, keep up the good work!  ::D: 





> @Aly 
> This means I was right about peppermint tea all along? 
> This is so cool, I knew menthol wouldn't be the only thing in there affecting our brain, in most peppermint plants its actually in a 1:1 ration to menthone.



Yes it does.  :Party:  That's good to know too! No wonder the tea is so useful.  :smiley: 





> I went with the same Galantamine/Menthol formula as last week with the same results. *Very long intense lucid dreams with, unfortunately, sexual side effects.* My first round of dreams were dark and unstable but I think it was due to the few beers I had before bed. I'll probably continue to use menthol with galantamine for as long as I still have a galantamine supply.



You and I are living in different worlds, my friend.  ::chuckle:: 





> Would the use of intranasal menthol be effective? I partake in snuff tobacco and have mentholated varieties.



Maybe at WBTB, but that would just make the half-life even shorter. It's not recommended. Also, what Xanous said.

----------


## Xanous

> You and I are living in different worlds, my friend.



Ah I get your meaning.  ::lol::  There is a moral dilemma for me when it comes to this... a certain amount of guilt is associated with it. Unless it is with my wife then I fully enjoy it. Like this dream: What A Snore! But still I'd rather be out adventuring and doing stuff that I normally can't enjoy in the waking world. Besides, a wet dream is always embarrassing for me at this stage in life, regardless.  :Oops: 

*Dose*: *Pre-bed*: 2 tablespoons peppermint leaves, 3g fish oil, 200mg 5-htp *WBTB*: 1/4 cup peppermint leaves, 8 mg galantamine, 300mg alpha-gpc, 250mg choline salts, 100mg L-Theanine
*Side Effects*: Had something like hunger pains between LD
*Sleep Duration*: 12 hours
*WBTB*: 2:30-3:00am
*Lucid*: Yes x2
*Vividness*: High
*Stability*: Varied (Darkness)
*Dream Comments*: The first dream was WILD and I had a snoring issue that drove me crazy but I ended up sexing my wife up. Later had an interesting DILD. I tried some pre-bed menthol for the accumulative effect but really didn't notice any difference. Of course, I can't be sure because I noticed there was a lessened effect with galantamine which, I think is due to my recent abuse of my acetylcholine receptors over the past few days.  ::mrgreen::  I think I'll cut back on that next week.

What A Snore!
Escape From Alcatraz

----------


## Alyzarin

> Ah I get your meaning.  There is a moral dilemma for me when it comes to this... a certain amount of guilt is associated with it. Unless it is with my wife then I fully enjoy it. Like this dream: What A Snore! But still I'd rather be out adventuring and doing stuff that I normally can't enjoy in the waking world. Besides, a wet dream is always embarrassing for me at this stage in life, regardless.



Ah, gotcha, gotcha.  ::chuckle::  Well I suppose that's understandable.  :tongue2:  Sounds like you had a fun dream there anyway!

----------


## Highlander

Tue April 30th 2013

*Dose:* Banana (x1.) Honey & Lem Locket cough drops (x7.) Menthol = 67.9 mg
*Side Effects:* A gripey bloated stomach
*Sleep Duration:* 4.75 hrs (approx)/4.25 hrs (approx) after
*WBTB:* (68  83 min)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Average
*Stability:* Not applicable
*Dream Comments:* Had feelings of losing consciousness (like an awareness blackout) and occasional sinking sensations (sudden relaxation?) after the long WBTB period upon/after retiring.
(These are usually good indicators for me.)

My Ex made a cameo appearance in one of my dreams as being lesbian?  ::shock::

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## CanisLucidus

*Dose:*  Pre-bed: 3mg melatonin  WBTB: 4 bags peppermint tea
*Side Effects:* None.
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
*WBTB:* Yes.  (35 minutes)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* High.
*Stability:* n/a
*Dream Comments:* A lot of action.  One really long adventure/horror dream, then another pretty large dream that flew to pieces when my alarm went off.

The main dream from last night was a super long, action-heavy survival horror dream.  Lots and lots of action and flight.  It had pursuit by a grotesque zombie and later an enormous horde of orcs so there were some slightly nightmarish qualities to it, but it seemed like just enough fear to be fun.  I guess it's a thin line between an exciting action dream and a desperate nightmare, but this one was definitely on the fun side of the line.   :Nod yes: 

If I'm estimating length, I'd say it was about an hour.  I spent nearly all of the dream making my escape with a female DC but the dream was 100% non-sexy.  I don't think that I even approached lucidity.  The dream was so engaging and I spent the whole time feeling like the DC and I were in serious danger.  Not much time to stop and think.

There was a second dream, also with lots of action, but for some reason it evaporated when my alarm went off.   ::shakehead2::   Ah well.  I keep hoping it'll come back to me.

I've noticed that peppermint tea is staining the glass that I use for it.  Makes me wonder if I'm going to require teeth-whitening after all this menthol experimentation.   ::bigteeth::

----------


## Highlander

> I've noticed that peppermint tea is staining the glass that I use for it.  Makes me wonder if I'm going to require teeth-whitening after all this menthol experimentation.



To be fair, I can't comment too much on the (teeth staining) effects of peppermint tea; but I'd have thought coffee or normal tea would be the worst for that?

Talking of teeth, I do know one thing - I always clean them (thoroughly) after ingesting the Menthol cough drops at the end of WBTB due to the high sugar content they contain.

I mean that I wouldn't want one of those typical 'teeth falling out dreams' coming true.  ::D: 

(P.S: Congrats on the D.G. promo. BTW.)  ::thumbup::

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## NyxCC

I'd love to experiment with menthol, but I find it has a few setbacks for me. Similar to what CL has noticed, I found a while ago that tea stains my teeth, and also sometimes upsets my stomach. Cough drops are sugary and don't want to have tooth decay. I actually caused some decay when using drops during a few colds. There is one last option to consider though, an inhaler nasal stick. Anyone tried those with some good feedback?

----------


## dutchraptor

> I'd love to experiment with menthol, but I find it has a few setbacks for me. Similar to what CL has noticed, I found a while ago that tea stains my teeth, and also sometimes upsets my stomach. Cough drops are sugary and don't want to have tooth decay. I actually caused some decay when using drops during a few colds. There is one last option to consider though, an inhaler nasal stick. Anyone tried those with some good feedback?



That's not the "last" option. You could just buy peppermint essential oil, it's not that expensive at all. For what you get it' better than drinking 4 cups of peppermint tea or eating packet of cough drops.

----------


## NyxCC

Thanks dutchraptor, didn't know that. I should check my store when I have the opportunity and get some oil then. What is the way to take it, add a few drops to water and drink? I just also saw online that they sell peppermint oil capsules as a food supplement. Interesting, will see if they have those in the store as well.

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## Ctharlhie

Wait... Peppermint tea is a dream enhancer? I already drink that on a daily basis, never at 4am though  ::lol:: 

How would you go about ingesting peppermint oil, inhaled with steam?

I'm usually sceptical about non-medical supplements, but Alyzarin seems to have done her homework on this.

----------


## dutchraptor

> Wait... Peppermint tea is a dream enhancer? I already drink that on a daily basis, never at 4am though 
> 
> How would you go about ingesting peppermint oil, inhaled with steam?
> 
> I'm usually sceptical about non-medical supplements, but Alyzarin seems to have done her homework on this.



Yup I believe with as a vapor you can inhale it. I wouldn't know how effective this is though. I guess you could dilute it to the required amount, maybe if you get 10g of essential mint oil and water it down with 2 litre of water, you'd have 5mg/ml and you could take a few milliliters orally whenever needed. 
I wouldn't know how feasible this is though it's just an idea.




This guy seems to know what he's talking about, doesn't seem as worried by the dosage as me, it should have instructions on the bottle you buy.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> That's not the "last" option. You could just buy peppermint essential oil, it's not that expensive at all. For what you get it' better than drinking 4 cups of peppermint tea or eating packet of cough drops.



Great suggestion, dutchraptor!  That's what you're doing with your awesome peppermint oil distillation system, right?  I really love that thing.   ::D: 

I'm trying some back-of-the-envelope calculations in order to determine about how much menthol we're getting w/ peppermint oil.  If I'm doing this right, just a few drops would be very potent.  Does this look right to you?

Wikipedia says that peppermint essential oil has 40.7% menthol content.  Source
Peppermint oil density: ~.9g / ml Source
Let's say that we're talking about a standard dropper that is about 20 drops per mL.  (Estimated)  Source

Amount of menthol in a mL of peppermint essential oil: .9g / ml * .407 ml menthol / 1ml oil = .3663 g / mL = *366.3 mg / mL*
Amount of menthol in a drop of peppermint essential oil: 366.3 mg / ml * 1 ml / 20 drops = *18 mg menthol / drop*

If I've done that right, even 2 drops would yield 36 mg of menthol, which we've generally seen to be enough for dream enhancement.  That's not very much at all!  Could that be right or am I messing up an assumption somewhere?   ::hrm::   It'd be extremely economical if it worked!

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## Ctharlhie

It would certainly be convenient if your calculations are correct.

----------


## Alyzarin

> I'd love to experiment with menthol, but I find it has a few setbacks for me. Similar to what CL has noticed, I found a while ago that tea stains my teeth, and also sometimes upsets my stomach. Cough drops are sugary and don't want to have tooth decay. I actually caused some decay when using drops during a few colds. There is one last option to consider though, an inhaler nasal stick. Anyone tried those with some good feedback?



Any method of administration besides eating/drinking is probably not the way to go. The half-life is already short enough as it is.





> Wait... Peppermint tea is a dream enhancer? I already drink that on a daily basis, never at 4am though 
> 
> How would you go about ingesting peppermint oil, inhaled with steam?
> 
> I'm usually sceptical about non-medical supplements, but Alyzarin seems to have done her homework on this.



Hop on board, Ctharlhie.  ::content::  We've compiled a pretty good amount of anecdotal, scientific, and experimental evidence to back this up. There's no hurt in trying it out!

----------


## Xanous

For what its worth, I was taking the oil straight by the teaspoon. The flavor was.strong but I actually found it enjoyable.  However, I have much better results with the tea but now Im curious what a tea/oil combo would do for me!

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## CanisLucidus

> For what its worth, I was taking the oil straight by the teaspoon. The flavor was.strong but I actually found it enjoyable.  However, I have much better results with the tea but now Im curious what a tea/oil combo would do for me!



So you just gulped a teaspoon of peppermint essential oil?  Ha ha... ok, there's no way that my formula is right then.  A teaspoon is 4.9 ml, so multiply that by 366.3 mg / ml and you get nearly 1.8 grams of menthol!  That's a _lot_.   ::D: 

Then again, oral LD50 for menthol is something like 3g / kg of bodyweight, so like 200g for a typical adult male.  In other words, 100x what you had.  I wonder if you really did have that much menthol!  I'm curious why results were better for you with tea vs. the essential oil.  (*Note:* As Dutch pointed out, LD50 for menthol is kinda tricky.  Don't start testing out my LD50 numbers, people!!   :tongue2: )

Well, there I go.  I've started "thinking" again.  Now I have to buy a bottle of this stuff.   ::D:

----------


## Xanous

> So you just gulped a teaspoon of peppermint essential oil?



Ha well... Oops. I went back in the thread and I reported taking 1/4 and 1/8 teaspoons. I wasn't keeping a spreadsheet back then so I kinda forgot. I guess that makes a more reasonable dose?  ::whyme::  I wonder how much I am getting with peppermint tea and I wonder if taking too much negates the effect as with other supplements. But then again I got nowhere near the amounts you were talking about.

----------


## Highlander

> For what its worth, I was taking the oil straight by the teaspoon. The flavor was.strong but I actually found it enjoyable.  However, I have much better results with the tea but now Im curious what a tea/oil combo would do for me!



I know you did clarify the amount roughly between 1/4 and 1/8th of a teaspoon in your last post, but even so I don't think I would advocate taking it straight as it is known to irritate or even burn the skin.

Be mindful of any side effects such as skin allergies, heartburn and even slow heartbeat, etc, etc. with peppermint oil. Make sure you are not on any other medication, etc.

Regards.

----------


## Highlander

Thur May 2nd 2013

*Dose:* (Bed) Zinc (x1) = 10 mg. (WBTB) Banana (x1.) Menthodex (x2) = ?? (0.36 % w/w)
*Side Effects:* Insomnia (See note)
*Sleep Duration:* 4-5.5 hrs (approx)/ 2-3 hrs (approx) after
*WBTB:* Yes (30-62 min) (N.B: I cat-napped the first 30 min)
*Lucid:* No
*Vividness:* Average
*Stability:* Not applicable
*Dream Comments:* I did have trouble trying to get back to sleep post WBTB, although I don’t think this was down to the Menthol, etc. It was probably due to me thinking about (general) things too much.
I did experience a couple or so noise/pressure head sensations post WBTB when I finally did start to relax.
I was a bit lazy with my recall this morning too.  ::?:

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:*  Pre-bed: 100mg 5-HTP, 5g fish oil  WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 300mg Alpha-GPC, 200mg L-theanine, 3 bags peppermint tea, 1 bag green tea
*Side Effects:* None.
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
*WBTB:* Yes.  (30 minutes)
*Lucid:* Yes!!
*Vividness:* Very high.
*Stability:* High
*Dream Comments:* Possibly the coolest lucid dream of my life.   ::happy:: 

This was my experiment with combining three of my favorite supplements: galantamine, menthol, and caffeine.  I was running a bit of a balancing act -- I wanted to get the dream- and imagination-enhancing effects of menthol without becoming amorous.  (I was planning on summoning a female DV member and didn't want to have any unwise impulses.)  Therefore, I dialed menthol back to 3 bags of peppermint tea, a dose at which I'd never experienced the side effect of "reproductive impulsiveness", _but_ one that had given me a lot of cool dreams back in the day.

The result was a ton of imaginative, adventurous, non-sexy lucid dreaming.  Control was good (though not perfect) and I pulled down about 25-30 minutes of LD time.  

Of note, too, was the addition of caffeine.  This led to a relatively smooth entry into the dream via WILD and (according to science) suppression of deep sleep.  The combination of G, menthol, and just a touch of caffeine looks very promising for nice, long WILDs!  This was an _awesome_ night of dreaming.  I'll definitely be trying this combo again!

The lucid dream: http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/cani...weredog-46009/

----------


## dutchraptor

> Great suggestion, dutchraptor!  That's what you're doing with your awesome peppermint oil distillation system, right?  I really love that thing.  
> 
> I'm trying some back-of-the-envelope calculations in order to determine about how much menthol we're getting w/ peppermint oil.  If I'm doing this right, just a few drops would be very potent.  Does this look right to you?
> 
> Wikipedia says that peppermint essential oil has 40.7% menthol content.  Source
> Peppermint oil density: ~.9g / ml Source
> Let's say that we're talking about a standard dropper that is about 20 drops per mL.  (Estimated)  Source
> 
> Amount of menthol in a mL of peppermint essential oil: .9g / ml * .407 ml menthol / 1ml oil = .3663 g / mL = *366.3 mg / mL*
> ...



This definitely seems about right. I think diluting it would help in terms of accuracy though, if you dilute it four times then you have around 4.5 mg per drop, and then you could basically just take one ml of the dilute solution for around 80mg of menthol and 80mg of menthone. Going by this you could use it for 40 consecutive days, or almost three months by taking it every second day, for around 4 euro  ::D:

----------


## Ctharlhie

> *Dose:*  Pre-bed: 100mg 5-HTP, 5g fish oil  WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 300mg Alpha-GPC, 200mg L-theanine, 3 bags peppermint tea, 1 bag green tea
> *Side Effects:* None.
> *Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
> *WBTB:* Yes.  (30 minutes)
> *Lucid:* Yes!!
> *Vividness:* Very high.
> *Stability:* High
> *Dream Comments:* Possibly the coolest lucid dream of my life.  
> 
> ...



Epic result there  :smiley:  I'm gonna have to try that combo.

So I was too late to get to my local Holland and Barrett's (herbal remedies, vitamins etc. in case it's just a UK shop) but I did manage to get some Halls. They're extra strong, so how many should I take at first, and during WBTB? (is new at supplements)

----------


## Highlander

> So I was too late to get to my local Holland and Barrett's (herbal remedies, vitamins etc. in case it's just a UK shop) but I did manage to get some Halls. They're extra strong, so how many should I take at first, and during WBTB? (is new at supplements)



If it's the Halls Extra strong I'm thinking of that I tried last year then mine were 15.8 mg of Menthol per lozenge. So on that basis for a first time then try two; one after the other during WBTB. (Due to the short half-life, etc.)
In my case I tend to get a bit of a gripey stomach and gas off the cough drops (and ingested air,) plus it is best to only try no more than a couple just in case you are sensitive to the other ingredients as well as the Menthol, e.g: Glycol, etc.
I advise a quick rinse/teeth cleaning after due to the high sugar content that some of these lozenges contain.

Hope that helps?

----------


## CanisLucidus

> This definitely seems about right. I think diluting it would help in terms of accuracy though, if you dilute it four times then you have around 4.5 mg per drop, and then you could basically just take one ml of the dilute solution for around 80mg of menthol and 80mg of menthone. Going by this you could use it for 40 consecutive days, or almost three months by taking it every second day, for around 4 euro



Brilliant, that's the way to go.  That really beats fretting over whether your "standard dropper" is "standard" enough.  Simple and elegant.   ::goodjob2:: 

Also, FWIW, Wikipedia lists the menthone content of peppermint essential oil as being 23.4% vs. the 40.7% for menthol.  (Edit: Just remembered to add this.)

Speaking of taking it every 2nd day, I have not been able to decide what the maximum frequency is that I should employ.  Because of the short half-life and quick elimination from the system, I felt justified going as high as 3x per week sometimes, but I wonder whether that's wise.





> Epic result there  I'm gonna have to try that combo.
> 
> So I was too late to get to my local Holland and Barrett's (herbal remedies, vitamins etc. in case it's just a UK shop) but I did manage to get some Halls. They're extra strong, so how many should I take at first, and during WBTB? (is new at supplements)



Thanks.   :smiley:   How much menthol is in each of those drops, Ctharlhie?  For what it's worth, I got strong effects at ~35mg menthol (dream quantity and sexiness), with more mild effects at lower doses.  At around ~20 mg or so, I believe that I got fewer   You may just want to start on the lower end and very gradually go higher.  Whatever suits your personality.   :smiley:   Good record-keeping (right here's a good place) will help you find your sweet spot, I think.

I found the drops (or peppermint tea) most effective at WBTB, but YMMV.  Highlander makes the excellent suggestion to brush those teeth afterward.  Good thinking!   ::bigteeth::

----------


## Ctharlhie

> If it's the Halls Extra strong I'm thinking of that I tried last year then mine were 15.8 mg of Menthol per lozenge. So on that basis for a first time then try two; one after the other during WBTB. (Due to the short half-life, etc.)
> In my case I tend to get a bit of a gripey stomach and gas off the cough drops (and ingested air,) plus it is best to only try no more than a couple just in case you are sensitive to the other ingredients as well as the Menthol, e.g: Glycol, etc.
> I advise a quick rinse/teeth cleaning after due to the high sugar content that some of these lozenges contain.
> 
> Hope that helps?



I'm a bit confused on the actual content, some sources say as high as 19mg (crikey), but the last time I had a throat infection I'd get through two packs a day with no awareness of possible menthol overdose 0_o Given that, I'm not sure on my potential tolerance, we'll see.





> Thanks.   How much menthol is in each of those drops, Ctharlhie? For what it's worth, I got strong effects at ~35mg menthol (dream quantity and sexiness), with more mild effects at lower doses. At around ~20 mg or so, I believe that I got fewer You may just want to start on the lower end and very gradually go higher. Whatever suits your personality.  Good record-keeping (right here's a good place) will help you find your sweet spot, I think.
> 
> I found the drops (or peppermint tea) most effective at WBTB, but YMMV. Highlander makes the excellent suggestion to brush those teeth afterward. Good thinking!



I will be posting my progress  :smiley: 

@Alyzarin: I've read the whole thread and your research is astounding (I like the uncompromising approach to posting chemical and neuroanatomy jargon), do you have a career in neuroscience?

Considering that there are no warnings on the pack (and according to wiki Halls have dropped claims to having an active ingredient like strepsils do (anaesthetic) and simply call them sweets) I think it would be hard to overdose on Halls. I'm gonna go with at least two. If I had a cold I'd be having at least one during the night!

----------


## Ctharlhie

*Dose:* Two Hall's Extra Strong (22-38mg depending on your source), I take multivitamins so my B5, B6 and B12 levels are a bit over the daily recommended amount (but not at toxicity level, of course).
*Side Effects:* Nope.
*Sleep Duration:* ~10 hours
*WBTB:* 45 minute.
*Lucid:* No (Pre-lucid)
*Vividness:* Intense. (Chain FAs)
*Stability:* Varied dramatically.
*Dream Comments:* Wow. Whatever I expected, it was not this. The feel was exactly like when you have a raging fever and you cycle between overwhelming and surreal dreams and a state near ISP. I went in with doubts but the feel of it was totally unlike ordinary dreams.

Felt aroused at one point and got a spontaneous erection without any mental stimulus even. WILDing was turbo-charged, extremely vivid hypnagogia that was almost like watching a dream, including sexual imagery, and a Starwars lightsaber duel  ::lol::  Very suddenly I felt that menthol inertia everyone's been talking about, my body suddenly felt leaden, but didn't remain aware for the transition.

I seemed to spend the time from 7:30, when I must have drifted off, to 9:30, when my alarm went off, constantly dreaming. The content was on the verge of nightmarish, with a maintained sense of threat and dread. The plot had a completely wonky internal logic and was full of surrealism and non-sequitors. The whole feel of it was like when I took salvia for the first (and so far only) time, but without the hysterical giggling.

The nightmarish feel was overwhelming to the point that my 'nightmare escape mechanism' from childhood kicked in and I became prelucid but instead of taking control I just tried to wake up. Here my old enemy the chain false awakening reared its ugly head and I had a few episodes of FAs and waking sleep paralysis w/ intruder before finally waking.

Huge recall, about 6 dreams worth of material (but completely disjointed, it's like fever dreams that don't make sense to anyone but the dreamer).


---------

On an unrelated note, can I suggest that rather than quantify things like lucidity and recall (which vary according to individual differences between dreamers), we carry out more of a 'content analysis', looking for the things that characterise menthol dreams; sex, surrealism, intensity, nightmarishness, etc.?

----------


## Highlander

^ Sounds like one hell of a night bro! Those Halls are STRONG! 

Fri May 3rd 2012

*Dose:* Vitamin B6 (10 mg) Menthodex (x2) = ?? (0.36 % w/w) 
*Side Effects:* Insomnia (See note.)
*Sleep Duration:* 5.25 hrs before/ 2.25-3.25 hrs after 
*WBTB:* Yes (38 min)
*Lucid:* yes (note: in ‘lower-case’)
*Vividness:* Average to good
*Stability:* Very good
*Dream Comments:* It took me nearly an hour to drop off to sleep post WBTB, probably due to me expecting a difficult day IWL, plus the ambient sunlight would be a factor rather than the supplements used.
I did wonder about the level/nature of lucidity/dream awareness initially, but it was an emotionally charged memorable dream nevertheless.

HI. Lyserge. Seeing Dad (DILD) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Ctharlhie

> ^ Sounds like one hell of a night bro! Those Halls are STRONG!



It was a memorable first experiment.  :smiley: 

I've been looking for galantamine alternatives as it is prescription only in the UK and I don't want to order it to my Uni halls (shit gets lost in the post), so I've been looking at alternatives. Has anyone experimented with Ginkgo Biloba? (Alyzarin?) It's used with Alzheimer's like galantamine and is a memory/cognitive aid.

I did, however, get my hands on B5 and Choline, gonna try them in conjunction with 3 Hall's tonight.

Hey, hey, guys, peppermint oil capsules! Wouldn't this be the easiest/most economical way of ingesting menthol?

----------


## dutchraptor

> Hey, hey, guys, peppermint oil capsules! Wouldn't this be the easiest/most economical way of ingesting menthol?



This looks like a great deal. Roughly the same price as buying it in liquid form, obviously a lot easier to take. I'll be ordering it one of these days considering it's been such a harsh winter and there is no chance I could distil even a ml of peppermint. 

I'm kinda annoyed that it's been so cold lately, peppermint should have been growing for a month now and all there are, are only little tiny baby plants. I've been wanting to use my distillary so bad but I can't cause nothing is ready yet. 

I can't wait to start using st johns worth again. People used to crush the leaves and place the oil in a vial because it turned bright red and when applied to a wound it would heal it faster. It looks really cool and it practically grows natural almost everywhere.

----------


## Ctharlhie

> This looks like a great deal. Roughly the same price as buying it in liquid form, obviously a lot easier to take. I'll be ordering it one of these days considering it's been such a harsh winter and there is no chance I could distil even a ml of peppermint. 
> 
> I'm kinda annoyed that it's been so cold lately, peppermint should have been growing for a month now and all there are, are only little tiny baby plants. I've been wanting to use my distillary so bad but I can't cause nothing is ready yet. 
> 
> I can't wait to start using st johns worth again. People used to crush the leaves and place the oil in a vial because it turned bright red and when applied to a wound it would heal it faster. It looks really cool and it practically grows natural almost everywhere.



Tell me about it! I'm in Devon and there are loads of bare trees here!

I'm going to get peppermint, valerian and St. John's wort capsules tomorrow  :smiley:  (possibly ginkgo to experiment with it's memory aid properties)

 I never thought I would get the supplement bug so bad.  :tongue2: 

I'm not sure about Ginkgo though, from what I've seen you need to take it over a few days for it to take effect.

Also, can anyone remember the menthol upper limit off the top of their heads? I'm not sure whether to get the 200mg or 50mg capsules of peppermint oil. :/ I suppose it depends on the menthol content per capsule.

----------


## dutchraptor

> Tell me about it! I'm in Devon and there are loads of bare trees here!
> 
> I'm going to get peppermint, valerian and St. John's wort capsules tomorrow  (possibly ginkgo to experiment with it's memory aid properties)
> 
>  I never thought I would get the supplement bug so bad. 
> 
> I'm not sure about Ginkgo though, from what I've seen you need to take it over a few days for it to take effect.
> 
> Also, can anyone remember the menthol upper limit off the top of their heads? I'm not sure whether to get the 200mg or 50mg capsules of peppermint oil. :/ I suppose it depends on the menthol content per capsule.



By upper limit do you mean the LD50 (lethal dose for half the population)? 
If you do than the lowest figures I found where around 50mg/kg of body weight which would work out as around 3-4g of menthol needed to kill an average human (or at least severely hurt him). Some places state that you need to take almost 10 or even 20g to be affected but I like to play it safe.

I would get the 200mg menthol capsules due to their stronger effect, as long you take them in 2-3 day spaces the menthol can be removed from your body without showing effects.

----------


## Ctharlhie

Thanks for the info. Should I leave similar spaces between b5, choline, valerian root, st. John's wort, for them to leave the system? Can you become desensitised to the effect of choline, for instance?

----------


## Ctharlhie

*Dose:* WBTB: x3 Hall's Extra Strong (33-57mg), 500mg B5, 500mg Choline Bitartrate, 500mg Inositol
*Side Effects:* Insomnia for over an hour (past the peak plasma time for choline, unfortunately)
*Sleep Duration:* ~10 hours
*WBTB:* 6am, 3 hours prior sleep, 30 minutes duration.
*Lucid:* No.
*Vividness:* Tactile, violence, intimacy, colour saturation.
*Stability:* N/A
*Dream Comments:* Bit of a failed attempt, remember about 4 dreams in all although 3 could be better termed as fragments. One dream was one of those 'fall-in-love-with-random-DC' dreams, as per previous observations of menthol's aphrodisiac properties. Falling asleep I was again horny and felt waves of heaviness and numbness that never quite led to a WILD (although menthol seems to greatly increase WILD progression for me), HI was less vivid (insomnia). 

My choline tablets are half and half choline and inositol. I've done some reading and inositol is used for treatment of panic attacks, and my dreams were much less nightmarish this time. Perhaps it acts on the amygdala? I think Alyzarin may have speculated on menthol being synergistic with inositol? Perhaps inositol curbs some of the darkness that comes with menthol? Hopefully I'll get a clearer picture when I can experiment without insomnia.

----------


## dutchraptor

> Thanks for the info. Should I leave similar spaces between b5, choline, valerian root, st. John's wort, for them to leave the system? Can you become desensitised to the effect of choline, for instance?



Yes you probably should. I think b5 and choline are pretty much the same in terms of usage as menthol from what I've seen so far. I've never taken them myself though. Valerian root and st johns wort should be taken differently and more sparingly from what I remember, especially the latter. I know that some people have quite a bad reaction to st johns wort so it might be an idea to start with a small dose and only try taking it once or twice a week. I'm not sure on Valerian root. I know that you can take a huge load of inositol without any side effects.

----------


## Ctharlhie

Well I got 120 200mg 'rapid release softgel' capsules of peppermint oil along with 30 capsules of St. John's wort and 30 capsules of valerian. The peppermint says to take 1-2 caps daily, 400mg of peppermint oil 0_o that would be one hell of a menthol dream.

Yeah I've read about some of the seratonin altering effects of SJW, I probably should be cautious as I'm a mood-swingy sort of person anyway. I'm avoiding 5-htp until further research sheds more light on it.

I got the valerian root caps as Canis seemed to be having such positive results using it in combination with menthol.

But I'll take a couple of days off now.

----------


## Alyzarin

*Everyone: Make sure you read the red part!*





> *Dose:*  Pre-bed: 100mg 5-HTP, 5g fish oil  WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 300mg Alpha-GPC, 200mg L-theanine, 3 bags peppermint tea, 1 bag green tea
> *Side Effects:* None.
> *Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
> *WBTB:* Yes.  (30 minutes)
> *Lucid:* Yes!!
> *Vividness:* Very high.
> *Stability:* High
> *Dream Comments:* Possibly the coolest lucid dream of my life.  
> 
> ...



Awesome, I'm glad to hear it!  ::content::  Nice use of supplement combos there, this is all coming together quite well.  ::D: 





> @Alyzarin: I've read the whole thread and your research is astounding (I like the uncompromising approach to posting chemical and neuroanatomy jargon), do you have a career in neuroscience?



Thanks, Ctharlhie!  :smiley:  I'm actually just a college sophomore with no set major though lol. I've never had a job in my life, though I'm planning to get one hopefully in the summer and maybe through next semester too instead of taking classes just so I can build up some experience....

Honestly, I just have too much free time to look this stuff up.  ::roll:: 





> *Dose:* Two Hall's Extra Strong (22-38mg depending on your source), I take multivitamins so my B5, B6 and B12 levels are a bit over the daily recommended amount (but not at toxicity level, of course).
> *Side Effects:* Nope.
> *Sleep Duration:* ~10 hours
> *WBTB:* 45 minute.
> *Lucid:* No (Pre-lucid)
> *Vividness:* Intense. (Chain FAs)
> *Stability:* Varied dramatically.
> *Dream Comments:* Wow. Whatever I expected, it was not this. The feel was exactly like when you have a raging fever and you cycle between overwhelming and surreal dreams and a state near ISP. I went in with doubts but the feel of it was totally unlike ordinary dreams.
> 
> ...



I love this thread.  :Bliss:  I'm glad you had a powerful experience for your first time so you could see what it's like! Too bad it was so dark though, unless that's your thing! But now at least you've got a good idea of what we're dealing with.

And that salvia giggling is weird right!? Like... unnatural. Made me feel like I was being forced to be insane.... It disappears with tolerance though, very quickly.





> On an unrelated note, can I suggest that rather than quantify things like lucidity and recall (which vary according to individual differences between dreamers), we carry out more of a 'content analysis', looking for the things that characterise menthol dreams; sex, surrealism, intensity, nightmarishness, etc.?



We're far enough into the experiment that we've got a good amount of detail about how it effects lucidity and vividness now, so I wouldn't be opposed to it.... We should take a vote, though.

Anyone have any objections? Or any ideas on how specifically to reformat it?





> Has anyone experimented with Ginkgo Biloba? (Alyzarin?)



For dreams? No, but I have taken it for memory purposes before. Both just by itself and to combat the effects of an anticholinergic deliriant, which produce a simulated non-lucidity. I actually did keep myself grounded more easily through it, but it's hard to say how much it actually contributed for sure.





> Thanks for the info. Should I leave similar spaces between b5, choline, valerian root, st. John's wort, for them to leave the system? Can you become desensitised to the effect of choline, for instance?



Yes, acetylcholine receptors will gain tolerance anything else. You'll actually become desensitized to just about everything, even vitamins (aside from for health reasons).





> My choline tablets are half and half choline and inositol. I've done some reading and inositol is used for treatment of panic attacks, and my dreams were much less nightmarish this time. Perhaps it acts on the amygdala? I think Alyzarin may have speculated on menthol being synergistic with inositol? Perhaps inositol curbs some of the darkness that comes with menthol? Hopefully I'll get a clearer picture when I can experiment without insomnia.



Actually, it was that inositol trisphosphate was a player in the downstream effects of kappa-opioid receptor activation. How inositol supplementation might effect that, I'm not sure.... I wouldn't doubt that they could go together well, though. Inositol positively regulates serotonin and dopamine receptors, so it could add some happiness like you said and possibly enhance the sexual and maybe vividness-related effects of the menthol.

----------


## Ctharlhie

> Thanks, Ctharlhie!  I'm actually just a college sophomore with no set major though lol. I've never had a job in my life, though I'm planning to get one hopefully in the summer and maybe through next semester too instead of taking classes just so I can build up some experience....
> 
> Honestly, I just have too much free time to look this stuff up.



It's pretty cool, I did psychology A Level but I'm nowhere near as clued up as you, then again I'm doing English at uni now  :tongue2: 





> I love this thread.  I'm glad you had a powerful experience for your first time so you could see what it's like! Too bad it was so dark though, unless that's your thing! But now at least you've got a good idea of what we're dealing with.
> 
> And that salvia giggling is weird right!? Like... unnatural. Made me feel like I was being forced to be insane.... It disappears with tolerance though, very quickly.



Yeah it was pretty awesome, I had no idea it was possible to influence your dreams to such an extent, let alone with mint of all things! Yay for menthol  :Bliss: 
The nightmare element didn't bother me too much, at least it was a pretty clear indication that the menthol had made an impact! I like to take on whatever my unconscious can throw at me,  ::evil::  I've had enough nightmares/waking sleep paralysis episodes to be slightly distanced from it. If anything now I see nightmares as being like horror movies/video games you've made yourself that you don't have to pay for!

But yeah, it was interesting, I wasn't expecting such a distinct change in tone, I'll be looking to see whether the inositol really does mitigate the grimdark element to menthol. I also want to determine the cause of the insomnia, some sources point at B5, though it may merely be the size of the peppermint dose, I'm going to try combining valerian in the mix to bring back the shleeps  ::zzz:: 

Salvia was mad, more extreme than marijuana for certain, (and I've smoke very strong weed a couple of times and the salvia was only the x5 variety) I was trying to talk to this guy and all that was coming out was belly laughs.





> We're far enough into the experiment that we've got a good amount of detail about how it effects lucidity and vividness now, so I wouldn't be opposed to it.... We should take a vote, though.
> 
> Anyone have any objections? Or any ideas on how specifically to reformat it?



I wasn't trying to hijack or anything, it just seems to me that menthol has a very qualitative effect rather than just 'lucidity and vividness 1-10' which always vary per dreamer. To be honest it's the way it affects dream content more than as a way to get lucid (which I suspect is a counter-intuitive attitude towards supplements anyway).





> For dreams? No, but I have taken it for memory purposes before. Both just by itself and to combat the effects of an anticholinergic deliriant, which produce a simulated non-lucidity. I actually did keep myself grounded more easily through it, but it's hard to say how much it actually contributed for sure.
> 
> Yes, acetylcholine receptors will gain tolerance anything else. You'll actually become desensitized to just about everything, even vitamins (aside from for health reasons).
> 
> Actually, it was that inositol trisphosphate was a player in the downstream effects of kappa-opioid receptor activation. How inositol supplementation might effect that, I'm not sure.... I wouldn't doubt that they could go together well, though. Inositol positively regulates serotonin and dopamine receptors, so it could add some happiness like you said and possibly enhance the sexual and maybe vividness-related effects of the menthol.



I'll probably leave ginkgo and hold on to get galantamine. I'll keep experimenting with menthol and inositol and see what happens  :smiley:

----------


## dutchraptor

I suppose we could do a simple pole here now and in the end sum up all our figures. What if we take all those categories and give them between 1-10 in terms of each of our experience. I think we should gather a bit more information at first, I'll be buying the tablets this week and I get get a better idea of how it feels again. From what I remember I had very similar dreams to Ctharlhie, very dark and surreal, often with themes of isolation or alternate dimensions popping up, an underlying sexual tone in many cases and throughout every dream an astounding sense of storyline no matter how disjointed it may seem at times.

----------


## Ctharlhie

I've only been part of this for a couple of days but for the effects of menthol have been the sexual content (erotic and romantic), violence, increased tangibility and colour saturation, violence, nightmares, surrealism, isolated sleep paralysis, increased hypnagogia...
Looking at all that you could mistake it as the description of calea or some deliriant. 0_o




> From what I remember I had very similar dreams to Ctharlhie, very dark and surreal, often with themes of isolation or alternate dimensions popping up, an underlying sexual tone in many cases and throughout every dream an astounding sense of storyline no matter how disjointed it may seem at times.



I know what you mean, my first experiment felt like the menthol had strung a load of different dreams together to have the same storyline no matter how random or illogical the links were. Very strange.

----------


## Highlander

Personally I think a change/addition would be a good idea. As Dutch points out, some sort of poll, or scale might help with summing up, etc. 

I'm going to try and look over my DJ for the last year to see if there are any clues or pointers that I might have overlooked? A sort of 'going back to basics' if you like.

----------


## NyxCC

Sorry for the late reply everyone. Update: managed to get some peppermint oil so will begin experimenting soon!  ::D:

----------


## CanisLucidus

> I got the valerian root caps as Canis seemed to be having such positive results using it in combination with menthol.



I've not been doing as much with the valerian lately because it worked a little _too_ well at getting me back to sleep.  I suspected it (probably unfairly) of making lucidity more challenging.  I had some cool dreams with it, though.  Thanks for reminding me of it... I'll have to give it another pass at some point.

If I had to come up with typical menthol-ish dream characteristics that are typical, it'd be
Imaginativeness
Sexiness
Violence
Dark-themed(ness?)

Note that some of these may make crappy category names.  Just what I've observed.   :smiley:   An additional characteristic of menthol night is there just seems to be... _more dreaming_, I guess.  Perhaps it's just more awareness.  I don't know for sure.  But the end result is me writing more stuff down, it seems.

Oddly, my early menthol dreams with lighter doses tended to be very whimsical and light-hearted.  Comical, even.  On the whole I don't find menthol dreams overly dark, and I can't think of many at all that were actually unpleasant.

----------


## PeterF

^^ So, menthol can enhance these things? damn, 70% of my dreams usually contain some dark themes  ::shock:: , anyways i got some menthol today guess i'll be updating here sometime over the next week.

----------


## Ctharlhie

> I've not been doing as much with the valerian lately because it worked a little _too_ well at getting me back to sleep.  I suspected it (probably unfairly) of making lucidity more challenging.  I had some cool dreams with it, though.  Thanks for reminding me of it... I'll have to give it another pass at some point.
> 
> If I had to come up with typical menthol-ish dream characteristics that are typical, it'd be
> Imaginativeness
> Sexiness
> Violence
> Dark-themed(ness?)
> 
> Note that some of these may make crappy category names.  Just what I've observed.    An additional characteristic of menthol night is there just seems to be... _more dreaming_, I guess.  Perhaps it's just more awareness.  I don't know for sure.  But the end result is me writing more stuff down, it seems.
> ...



I'm interested in using valerian in tandem with B5/choline as I've read that B5 has the tendency to induce insomnia as well as exacerbate the effects of choline. I suppose it could be a good herb to counteract dopaminergic supplements tendency to cause sleeplessness (apart from any oneirogenic qualities it has in of itself). 

I agree with your assessment of the characteristics of menthol.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> I'm interested in using valerian in tandem with B5/choline as I've read that B5 has the tendency to induce insomnia as well as exacerbate the effects of choline. I suppose it could be a good herb to counteract dopaminergic supplements tendency to cause sleeplessness (apart from any oneirogenic qualities it has in of itself). 
> 
> I agree with your assessment of the characteristics of menthol.



Another good supplement for helping you settle yourself down during WBTB is L-Theanine.  It's got a nice, subtle effect, which I'd describe as easing your mind and simply turning the volume down on your inner dialogue.  When insomnia arrives, the inner tends to sort of take over, particularly for folks like me who are only clumsily skilled in the art of meditation.  L-Theanine is good at dampening this process without knocking out the mindfulness that I find helps so much with WILD.

L-Theanine is also a dopaminergic, which gives it a nice role in all sorts of cocktails.   :Nod yes:   BTW, when you mentioned dopaminergics, did you have any substances in mind apart from menthol's D2 activity?  Just curious, because I've just recently acquired a few nifty dopaminergics (L-DOPA, EGCg, N-acetyl Tyrosine, etc.) that I'll slowly be incorporating.  (I take this stuff pretty slow when starting out with a new supp.)

----------


## PeterF

I agree, i tried L-Theanine & it help a lot, perfect for everything while on it i got some major near lucid like dreams, although i haven't tried it since like 09 i'll def. recommend it to all of you guys  ::D:

----------


## Alyzarin

*Once again: the red part is important!*





> It's pretty cool, I did psychology A Level but I'm nowhere near as clued up as you, then again I'm doing English at uni now



Well thanks again!  :smiley:  Hehe, well at least you've got more of a plan than I do. Now just reach my level of obsession and you'll be good to go!  ::chuckle:: 





> Yeah it was pretty awesome, I had no idea it was possible to influence your dreams to such an extent, let alone with mint of all things! Yay for menthol 
> The nightmare element didn't bother me too much, at least it was a pretty clear indication that the menthol had made an impact! I like to take on whatever my unconscious can throw at me,  I've had enough nightmares/waking sleep paralysis episodes to be slightly distanced from it. If anything now I see nightmares as being like horror movies/video games you've made yourself that you don't have to pay for!
> 
> But yeah, it was interesting, I wasn't expecting such a distinct change in tone, I'll be looking to see whether the inositol really does mitigate the grimdark element to menthol. I also want to determine the cause of the insomnia, some sources point at B5, though it may merely be the size of the peppermint dose, I'm going to try combining valerian in the mix to bring back the shleeps



We are kindred spirits, my friend!  ::cheers::  I used to use deliriants, heavy doses of cannabinoids, and salvia for the sake of taking on those intensely nightmarish experiences. I've also become desensitized to sleep paralysis, I actually think it's pretty neat when there's a demon standing at the end of my bed.  ::content:: 

About the insomnia, yeah, you may just want to try experimenting with your dose a bit. It sounds like you're sensitive enough to get good effects from the menthol, so it may be releasing enough dopamine and glutamate to keep you up. I would just try back down a little bit and see what happens.





> Salvia was mad, *more extreme than marijuana for certain*, (and I've smoke very strong weed a couple of times and the salvia was only the x5 variety) I was trying to talk to this guy and all that was coming out was belly laughs.



Wow, if that's not the understatement of the year. XD Marijuana is a potent mental and physical psychedelic, but when it comes to hallucinations it mostly just opens you up to more easily achieve things like astral projection. Salvia is one of the most powerful hallucinogens known to exist. It can take you to worlds and states of perception that you can spend the rest of your life trying to understand but never will, without even taking you out of your body, though it can _easily_ do that too if it wants.

Keep trying it. It gets crazier.  :tongue2: 

(Quite literally. It has reverse tolerance.)





> I wasn't trying to hijack or anything, it just seems to me that menthol has a very qualitative effect rather than just 'lucidity and vividness 1-10' which always vary per dreamer. To be honest it's the way it affects dream content more than as a way to get lucid (which I suspect is a counter-intuitive attitude towards supplements anyway).



Oh, no worries at all! This experiment has been going on long enough that it's time for a shift in gears. See, I honestly started the thread to see how it would effect dreams, not to try to get lucid with it, but when it was helping people get lucid and changing lucidity it only seemed natural to try to gather information about it. Now we have that information, so it's time to start getting more in-depth.  :smiley: 





> I'll probably leave ginkgo and hold on to get galantamine. I'll keep experimenting with menthol and inositol and see what happens



Cool, good luck with that then! I just read something neat about ginkgo yesterday too, if you're interested. It's a GABA(A) antagonist. You're probably not going to find many of those around that you can easily use.... It might be worth looking into if you are trying to make a memory stack or something! It could bring something to the table that other supplements just won't. I'm even starting to consider using it for a time dilation stack now.

-----

*New format info starts here:*

I'm up for this whole poll idea, you guys together have done a lot more field research than I have so feel free to do it however you want.  :smiley: 





> If I had to come up with typical menthol-ish dream characteristics that are typical, it'd be
> Imaginativeness
> Sexiness
> Violence
> Dark-themed(ness?)



I have no problem with this, personally.... This is the kind of idea that comes to mind for me, based on that.

*Example*, with Notes, for reference.

*Dose:* 3503.5 mg Menthol (385 Honey Lemon Halls cough drops). The dose you took.
*Side Effects:* Stomach cramps, insomnia, vomiting, seizures, toxic psychosis, reconnecting with dead relatives, acceptance of the impermanence of life, and transient phases of amnesia leading up to a coma-like state wherein lucid dreams occurred. The side effects you experienced.
*Sleep Duration:* Just under 64 hours in a hospital bed. How long you were asleep for.
*Cognitive:* My mind was flooded with visions of a sadomasochistic hell which permeated the dreamscape, tinted by an almost intangible and overpowering presence of indifference to the human struggle which latched on to me and redefined how I view myself as a living entity. If it made you more imaginative, more impulsive, more delusional, or just changed your state of mind overall, put it here.
*Sexual:* Repeatedly I was restrained by a wide variety of demonic humanoids, grotesque, multi-headed monsters, and Lovecraftian horrors which held a persistent theme of having eyes and moving tattoos covering their bodies and forced to endure what seemed like an endless sensual agony as I was molested, twisted, torn apart, and rebirthed in ways unfathomable in any sort of sane reality. If there were sexual themes in your dreams, put it here.
*Atmosphere:* In every dream there was a sense of having to face a judgment sent down from a higher power for the sins I had committed in my waking life. At the time I knew that I must face these for the rest of eternity as it was my own fault for living a life of greed and corruption, and thus I was forced to watch as the other doomed souls who suffered around me were mutilated and disintegrated before my eyes, feeling endless despair and knowing that it was only so long before I would fall to the same fate as them. Describe the overall mood of your dream here, like if it was happy, sad, violent, or whatever.
*Other Comments:* Overall, it was a unique experience. It was qualitatively more intense than most other dreams I've had, but I was a little disappointed at the lack of control despite it being a lucid. This was a constant theme throughout the nights, and I think I would probably want to the lower the dose a little bit next time to avoid this. In the end though, it was interesting. It's not something I could do all the time, but I might make it part of a rotation for every other week. If you have anything else you want to add, or you want to talk more about the dream(s) specifically, do it here.

Alright, that's just the very first thing that comes to mind.... What do you guys think? Good? Needs tweaking? And of course, this is all still preliminary too, just trying to think ahead!

----------


## Ctharlhie

> Another good supplement for helping you settle yourself down during WBTB is L-Theanine. It's got a nice, subtle effect, which I'd describe as easing your mind and simply turning the volume down on your inner dialogue. When insomnia arrives, the inner tends to sort of take over, particularly for folks like me who are only clumsily skilled in the art of meditation. L-Theanine is good at dampening this process without knocking out the mindfulness that I find helps so much with WILD.
> 
> L-Theanine is also a dopaminergic, which gives it a nice role in all sorts of cocktails.   BTW, when you mentioned dopaminergics, did you have any substances in mind apart from menthol's D2 activity? Just curious, because I've just recently acquired a few nifty dopaminergics (L-DOPA, EGCg, N-acetyl Tyrosine, etc.) that I'll slowly be incorporating. (I take this stuff pretty slow when starting out with a new supp.)



L-Theanine sounds like it would be great for catalysing WILDs if used in conjunction with menthol. I was looking into dopamine precursors after reading Yuschak's Advanced Lucid Dreaming (I now have much clearer idea of the functioning of supplements thanks to that), I was initially interested in phenylalamine as an L-Dopa precursor but L-Theanine looks interesting from what you said. What are your experiences of WILDing like having taken it?





> Well thanks again!  Hehe, well at least you've got more of a plan than I do. Now just reach my level of obsession and you'll be good to go!



I suspect I do have your level of obsession, just for literature and literary theory  :smiley: 





> We are kindred spirits, my friend!  I used to use deliriants, heavy doses of cannabinoids, and salvia for the sake of taking on those intensely nightmarish experiences. I've also become desensitized to sleep paralysis, I actually think it's pretty neat when there's a demon standing at the end of my bed.







> Wow, if that's not the understatement of the year. XD Marijuana is a potent mental and physical psychedelic, but when it comes to hallucinations it mostly just opens you up to more easily achieve things like astral projection. Salvia is one of the most powerful hallucinogens known to exist. It can take you to worlds and states of perception that you can spend the rest of your life trying to understand but never will, without even taking you out of your body, though it can _easily_ do that too if it wants.
> 
> Keep trying it. It gets crazier. 
> 
> (Quite literally. It has reverse tolerance.)



You seem to have a paradoxically healthy approach to drug use, it's quite refreshing  ::lol:: 

I think it's amazing that there's this whole world of experience outside of more destructive drug use that people never tap into because of the public discourse construction of substance use as criminal/lower class/immoral/whathaveyou.

Yeah I've read about the increasing intensity of salvia. A friend said he knows someone who took it and hallucinated that they were a rock for a thousand years.





> Cool, good luck with that then! I just read something neat about ginkgo yesterday too, if you're interested. It's a GABA(A) antagonist. You're probably not going to find many of those around that you can easily use.... It might be worth looking into if you are trying to make a memory stack or something! It could bring something to the table that other supplements just won't. I'm even starting to consider using it for a time dilation stack now.



What's the action of GABA antagonists again? Also, tell me more about 'stacks'.  :smiley: 





> *Example*, with Notes, for reference.
> 
> *Dose:* 3503.5 mg Menthol (385 Honey Lemon Halls cough drops). The dose you took.
> *Side Effects:* Stomach cramps, insomnia, vomiting, seizures, toxic psychosis, reconnecting with dead relatives, acceptance of the impermanence of life, and transient phases of amnesia leading up to a coma-like state wherein lucid dreams occurred. The side effects you experienced.
> *Sleep Duration:* Just under 64 hours in a hospital bed. How long you were asleep for.
> *Cognitive:* My mind was flooded with visions of a sadomasochistic hell which permeated the dreamscape, tinted by an almost intangible and overpowering presence of indifference to the human struggle which latched on to me and redefined how I view myself as a living entity. If it made you more imaginative, more impulsive, more delusional, or just changed your state of mind overall, put it here.
> *Sexual:* Repeatedly I was restrained by a wide variety of demonic humanoids, grotesque, multi-headed monsters, and Lovecraftian horrors which held a persistent theme of having eyes and moving tattoos covering their bodies and forced to endure what seemed like an endless sensual agony as I was molested, twisted, torn apart, and rebirthed in ways unfathomable in any sort of sane reality. If there were sexual themes in your dreams, put it here.
> *Atmosphere:* In every dream there was a sense of having to face a judgment sent down from a higher power for the sins I had committed in my waking life. At the time I knew that I must face these for the rest of eternity as it was my own fault for living a life of greed and corruption, and thus I was forced to watch as the other doomed souls who suffered around me were mutilated and disintegrated before my eyes, feeling endless despair and knowing that it was only so long before I would fall to the same fate as them. Describe the overall mood of your dream here, like if it was happy, sad, violent, or whatever.
> *Other Comments:* Overall, it was a unique experience. It was qualitatively more intense than most other dreams I've had, but I was a little disappointed at the lack of control despite it being a lucid. This was a constant theme throughout the nights, and I think I would probably want to the lower the dose a little bit next time to avoid this. In the end though, it was interesting. It's not something I could do all the time, but I might make it part of a rotation for every other week. If you have anything else you want to add, or you want to talk more about the dream(s) specifically, do it here.
> ...



I really laughed out loud at all that. It looks like a good basis. It can be tweaked through usage I suppose and as a group we'll settle on the most representative format, but that already looks good as it is.  :smiley:

----------


## CanisLucidus

> *Dose:* 3503.5 mg Menthol (385 Honey Lemon Halls cough drops). The dose you took.
> *Side Effects:* Stomach cramps, insomnia, vomiting, seizures, toxic psychosis, reconnecting with dead relatives, acceptance of the impermanence of life, and transient phases of amnesia leading up to a coma-like state wherein lucid dreams occurred. The side effects you experienced.
> ...
> *Atmosphere:* In every dream there was a sense of having to face a judgment sent down from a higher power for the sins I had committed in my waking life. At the time I knew that I must face these for the rest of eternity as it was my own fault for living a life of greed and corruption, and thus I was forced to watch as the other doomed souls who suffered around me were mutilated and disintegrated before my eyes, feeling endless despair and knowing that it was only so long before I would fall to the same fate as them. Describe the overall mood of your dream here, like if it was happy, sad, violent, or whatever.



 :Big laugh:   This whole thing is great...





> L-Theanine sounds like it would be great for catalysing WILDs if used in conjunction with menthol. I was looking into dopamine precursors after reading Yuschak's Advanced Lucid Dreaming (I now have much clearer idea of the functioning of supplements thanks to that), I was initially interested in phenylalamine as an L-Dopa precursor but L-Theanine looks interesting from what you said. What are your experiences of WILDing like having taken it?



Ah yes, the Yuschak book's great!  I primarily used L-theanine to help beat insomnia when I was having trouble falling back asleep after I'd taken galantamine + choline.  I have grown less dependent on L-theanine for an effective G+C WILD now but in general it does a wonderful job of quieting the mind.  When I first started using galantamine, I tried to mostly hit DILDs with it since I wasn't yet comfortable with WILD, and L-theanine worked well there as well.  (Now I WILD the great majority of the time if I'm using G.)

In general, L-theanine is great for helping stabilize you and lower the danger that you'll suffer from insomnia.  There's no magic bullet for that, but it tilts the odds more in your favor without eroding your awareness.

The dopaminergic effects are more subtle, although I did have one LD where I emerged with this overwhelming sense of euphoria, took to the sky, and shrieked "L-DOPA!!" like a huge dork.   ::chuckle::   A confounding factor there is that I tend to do ridiculous things in my LDs, so unfortunately it's hard to draw any far-reaching conclusions.

----------


## Ctharlhie

> In general, L-theanine is great for helping stabilize you and lower the danger that you'll suffer from insomnia.  There's no magic bullet for that, but it tilts the odds more in your favor without eroding your awareness.
> 
> The dopaminergic effects are more subtle, although I did have one LD where I emerged with this overwhelming sense of euphoria, took to the sky, and shrieked "L-DOPA!!" like a huge dork.    A confounding factor there is that I tend to do ridiculous things in my LDs, so unfortunately it's hard to draw any far-reaching conclusions.



I remember reading that entry actually.  :smiley:  Do you think the dopamine possibly resulted in a less reflective level of lucidity?

I want to have a few combinations of supplements to reduce likelihood of tolerance as Yuschak discusses.

I'll take this opportunity to recount my experience from last night, but won't use the new format as menthol was (largely) uninvolved (not strictly true, I had a peppermint tea at lunch but I hardly think that constitute a potent enough dose to influence my dreams. I got quite drunk last night (didn't have dinner) and went to bed with the room spinning. Result, massive REM rebound. I woke up recalling 8 dreams including possibly the most vividly sexual dream of my life. (Things have a tendency to just go wrong in my sex dreams, things won't work as they should or just turn dark or bizarre, resulting in dream content that would make Dr Freud spit out his cigar. But this one was completely realistic). Which reminded me of DutchRaptor's experience of St. John's Wort and menthol used in tandem. SJW is a mild serotonin reuptake blocker, which results in less REM in the intially sleep stages, and a rebound in the second half of the night. I wonder whether there is a link between seratonergic supplements and sexual dreams?

One more thing: is the elimination half life of menthol short enough to be able to use it on a daily basis without desensitisation?

----------


## Alyzarin

> You seem to have a paradoxically healthy approach to drug use, it's quite refreshing 
> 
> I think it's amazing that there's this whole world of experience outside of more destructive drug use that people never tap into because of the public discourse construction of substance use as criminal/lower class/immoral/whathaveyou.
> 
> Yeah I've read about the increasing intensity of salvia. A friend said he knows someone who took it and hallucinated that they were a rock for a thousand years.



Hehe, well you have to be smart about it if you want to do it right! I'm not just interested in getting high, I'm looking for the ultimate mind orgasm, and that requires some finesse.  ::D:  And menthol has been a very helpful step in this process! It really is a shame that people view drugs so badly, because things like this just amaze me. It is a wonderful underground world though.  :smiley: 

Wow, a thousand years as a rock.... That sounds awful. X) Peaceful though.... Yeah, salvia is nuts. The time dilation is especially intense on it because it's often mixed with a heavy delirium. Ego death is common, I would say maybe even more so than with DMT. Every time I overdo it I have the exact same trip, too. I'm still not sure how to describe it yet, but I remember a little more of it each time. There's a zipper, like on a jacket, that's zipping down if you look at the image as a whole but zipping up if you stare at the individual zipper, without it ever actually changing direction... and the rest of it has something to do with putting a box of Trix cereal back in the cupboard, but I have to wait my turn.... I also remember seeing rows of tiny clones of my parents holding their hands together and in the air, but if you "flip" your vision like you could if you were looking at a drawing of a tilted cube so you seen the opposite form without the picture changing, it's more like a hexagonal grid of demented faces that I can't really make out....

It's weird stuff. o.O The last time I smoked it I was just chilling in my room at night and the whole thing started spinning in all directions and my mom would burst into the room with the door slamming, yelling at me about something, and then burst into flames and melt into the spinning background right in front of my bed, and then immediately afterward my dad would come in and do exactly the same, and then it would start with my mom again, and it just repeated over and over.... I kept getting closer trying to get a better look because I couldn't figure out if it was real or not. >_> Though right after I came down from that I smoked it again and I saw what I would call my mental self-image superimposed on reality and multiplied in a spinning wheel all around me, and they became gigantic and overcame me while I had a telepathic conversation with some kind of goddess or feminine entity about the merits of smoking salvia. That was pretty nifty.... Unfortunately I can't remember anything that was said lol. (Or thought, if you will.)





> What's the action of GABA antagonists again? Also, tell me more about 'stacks'.



Well, first of all, if you have any sort of anxiety or paranoia then a GABA antagonist may not be for you, but other than it's probably worth considering. Essentially what it is is.... GABA is the main inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain. It lowers the levels and blocks the actions of other neurotransmitters and their receptors. That's why GABA agonists and GABA positive allosteric modulators, such as alcohol and valerian root, cause a loss of inhibitions, some memory disruption, sedation, and so on. They're basically shutting down the brain. So, what a GABA antagonist does is stop GABA and GABAergic drugs from working. The reason you would want to avoid it if you have anxiety is because, just like alcohol can calm your nerves, a GABA antagonist can rattle them if you're already predisposed to it. However, most people don't have a problem with this, especially at the therapeutic dose of something like ginkgo biloba. But that is a reason you wouldn't want to take more than the recommended dosage. Though ginkgo is pretty safe in this respect, most GABA antagonists can also cause seizures if you take too much, because they're allowing every part of the brain to operate at full capacity, which is bad. However, in safe doses, all this does is enhance your brain's activity. Movements become more fluid and you get more energy, you're kept a little bit more lucid, and your memory storage actually increases. That's one of the main factors in how ginkgo gets its effect.

That's also why it gets put in stacks a lot, I guess. A stack is basically just what people in the nootropic, mental wellness, and physical fitness drug communities call your set of supplements that you take on some kind of rotation, whether it's every day, twice a day, every other day, or what have you.... For example, my current stack is:

x1 Mega B-Complex Vitamin
x1 1400 mg Fish Oil
x1 20 mg Noopept
x2 1200 mg Lecithin

Pretty basic, I know.... Some peoples' lists stretch on for miles, but I'm just not getting back into it. I used to take a ton of pills every day, and I've still got some piracetam lying around to add on to this stack in another week or two.  ::rolleyes::  So, when it comes down to something like a memory stack, you would of course want to use the perfect safe combination of supplements to increase your ability to store and recall memories, thus where the ginkgo could come in. However, for my time dilation stack, that's a whole other thing....

I apologize in advance, but I'm about to spew my views all over you. This is why I think it works the way it does. I don't know if you're too familiar with the different sections of the brain, but one of my favorite parts is the hippocampus. This is a major player in memory - like many things in the brain there are two of them with just slightly varying function, and without just one you'll be fine, but without having either properly functioning you'll never be able to form another memory again. I personally believe that this is because the hippocampi are where "we" are. That is because I believe that our entire perception as we live it, the entire sensory interface of the world we know, is simply the process of our minds recording all our current perceptions into memory. I don't believe in free will. I've read, seen, and experienced enough to believe that we simply justify our actions to ourselves as a way of promoting our concept of individualism which we evolved with over time to help our species grow, but that those justifications are just another result of the chemical reaction that caused whatever it is that we did. And the reason I believe this is because this conscious awareness of our actions is clearly not required for functioning. Both GABAergics like alcohol and alprazolam as well as anticholinergics like diphenhydramine and datura can cause states of complete "blackout" where you simply skip forward in time with no experience whatsoever while your body continues to function on its own. And both of these classes of drugs do it by powerful inhibiting activity of the hippocampus, and they're not the only ones. And that's why I feel that without our hippocampus, without our memories being recorded, we're more like high-functioning zombies.... Or plants, if you want to be a little less gruesome about it. Things that are alive, but not really "living".

Why is all of this important, though? What it comes down to is that I see the hippocampus as sort of a hub, which I think it demonstrably is. For your perceptions to all be recorded into memory through the hippocampus, they must all first feed into it to be compiled. It's interesting to note that the hippocampus and its outer layer, the parahippocampal gyrus, have cells specifically reserved for understanding where you are and how you're oriented in your environment. There are also parts which determine how focused you are, or how into your own mind you are. It also has a dopamine system which is used for recognizing sounds like words and complex images, among many other things. Normally these all just get input from the sensory parts of the brain which pick up external inputs, but that's not really what I'm interested in. What really gets me is the part of the brain involved in creating certain types of memory, and most specifically to me, the amygdala. Again, technically amygdalae, because there are two of them - they're each situated right next to one of the hippocampi. The amygdala is primal, subconscious mind. It's plays a core role in sexual stimulation, fear/aversion/aggression, the effects of drugs, and dreams. It works several times faster than the "conscious" mind and in fact shuts down the prefrontal cortex, where are logical decisions are made, in times of crisis such as during an extreme adrenaline rush to make sure that it can act as quickly as possible. This cutting out of logical processing is also what is generally responsible for making sex-related decisions you later regret, making stupid or dangerous decisions on drugs, and non-lucidity in dreams.

It took me a while to think about all this, but finally it seemed to make sense to me. Stimulating the amygdala also stimulates the hippocampus, which is easy since they're right next to each other. Stimulating the hippocampus is known to cause hallucinations, and the amygdala is what writes different instinctive emotions into memories, such as with reward and aversion, so you know whether or not to go back to something or avoid it next time. This is how both learning and addiction work. And that's when it occurred to me that it's all just a hallucination... those good and bad feelings are just internal inputs to change the way your memories are recorded in a way that helps you survive better. That made me come to the conclusion that well-structured hallucinations, which are known to correlate with intense amygdala activity, are the simply the result of this "memory altering" process being activated so strongly that the widespread disinhibition of the hippocampus begins to dramatically alter the variables by which our entire world perception is written.

The way I see it is this. The hippocampus stores everything that makes up our consciousness - where we are, how we feel, etc. - in this one big map and sends projections to the parahippocampal gyrus, which is involved in memory retrieval, to help us figure out what our next action should be based on whatever it is we're currently experiencing. It may seem odd to think that because clearly we're not constantly thinking back to full memories every time we make choices, but that's not actually how memories work. Whenever you remember a scene, you actually reconstruct it from scratch - every single time. This is why memory can be so fickle. What you're actually doing is sending a set of data, like recalling the way you felt at the time, to your memory retrieval system, which stores all the schema you've ever recorded - "the sky is blue", "cheerleaders are ditzy", "you can't walk through walls", etc., just constructs that your brain uses to remember how the world works - and telling it "This is what I've got, see what you can make of it." It will then do it's best to rebuild the memory based on using those same data inputs again. What's interesting is that this process is not influenced only be the sensory or external inputs to the hippocampus but by the internal ones as well, since it's all just the same thing. Your amygdala is always running to a degree, and I personally feel that this is where imagination comes from. Disinhibited dopamine in the hippocampus begins to find those sounds and images in places where they aren't, and because the amygdala is not running strongly enough to inhibit the prefrontal cortex, these "hallucinations" are within our lucid control and make up our inner monologue and visual imagination, respectively. This raw information gets sent to the parahippocampal gyrus as well, which creates a full sound/image out of it by using schemata and then projects it back to the external input areas of the brain so that it can be added to our sensory recording. I believe that's why the more you try to visualize something, the better you can actually "see" it. However, this level of activity is still clearly very weak and that's why our imaginations, unless you're just awesome at visualization practice, generally don't actually overlap into what we really see.

Where it _really_ becomes interesting is how the amygdala becomes hyperactive during dreams. Since the external input systems are blocked out when you're sleeping, normally you'd just be faced with nothingness, but with the amygdala working so heavily it's pumping all kinds of junk data into the hippocampus, which will then begin to recognize sensory patterns in all kinds of places where they don't exist, and send them to the parahippocampal gyrus for figuring out. When this process is adequately active there becomes enough junk data to program an entire environment into the place cells ,and the signals relaying to the sensory areas of the brain become so strong that they begin to activate those brain areas as significantly as external input would. This, I believe, is how the dream world, and other out-of-body experiences, are formed.

Now this is all fine and good... but what the hell does it all have to do with time dilation? Well, as you're obviously aware, many hallucinogens can cause time dilation. The dopamine system has also been implicated in time dilation, and I believe that the way it works is that the more information your memory is recording all at once, the slower time seems to be passing for you. That would be why an incredibly intense adrenaline rush, which makes it so that you can process things extremely quickly to make life-or-death decisions, slows down your perception of time. And since those adrenaline rushes directly activate the amygdala, it just fuels my thought that the more active the hippocampus us the more data you'll be dealing with and the slower time will be. Now, it's interesting that lucid dreams work at about the same pace as waking life on a regular basis, but I started thinking about this. Hallucinogens, whether you put yourself in sensory deprivation or not, activate more focus-oriented parts of the brain than dreaming and they cause the hippocampus to be above normal activation, which is why the hallucinations can become so bizarre and intense. On the other hand, a dream isn't supposed to be doing anything other than mimicking waking life levels of activation. So wouldn't it make sense that, if it's doing its job right, time would flow at about the same rate for each? However, there is a cool catch to this. Internal inputs from the brain are going to be much easier to make much more complex than external inputs. That is to say, those external inputs are already generated when they're coming into the brain, but the internal inputs are being made by the brain itself, which means the more strongly you force the brain to become active the more intense those inputs will become. This is very easy to see when it comes to augmenting the effects of hallucinogens with other drugs and supplements.

And that ties us back into the start. The way the amygdala works, at the heart of all of this, is that all of these different emotion-based neurotransmitters project there and then block GABA activity, which lowers the inhibitory signals in the brain and allows the hippocampus to become more active. What it basically comes down to is that most things we could take to cause this action downstream - dopamine and norepinephrine precursors and cannabinoids - also have a REM-lowering effect when taken exogenously, which is clearly something we want to avoid. But, blocking GABA has actually been known to increase REM, or at the very least not effect it negatively (unless the dose is too large). In addition, blocking GABA would also effectively increase memory storage more than the other types of supplements, which would aid in recall as well. That's why the ginkgo biloba interests me so much. I actually found people talking about it having a slight time dilation effect when used in a memory stack, and that just makes me think that the same could be true in dreams. And if it increases our minds ability to generate dreams in the first place, there should be an additive effect in that increases the structure of the dream world, forces us to take in more information at once, and increases our ability to do so. The end goal would be increasing the amount of time we perceived ourselves as experiencing in the dream world. And of course, with wanting it to be a part of a stack, I would find other supplements to mix with it that could potentially synergize with it and enhance this activity without hurting the integrity of the dream.

Does that all make sense? I tried to make sure I brought it all back together in the end, but tell me if I missed something!





> I really laughed out loud at all that. It looks like a good basis. It can be tweaked through usage I suppose and as a group we'll settle on the most representative format, but that already looks good as it is.



Awesome, that sounds good to me! I'm glad you liked it.  ::content::  And I'm glad it gave you a good laugh.  :Cheeky: 





> This whole thing is great...



Thanks, I try.  :tongue2:  I honestly just made that example off the top of my head lol. I was just trying to imagine what a massively toxic dose of menthol might actually be like.





> One more thing: is the elimination half life of menthol short enough to be able to use it on a daily basis without desensitisation?



I wouldn't personally risk it, there does seem to be some sort of tolerance. But there's only one way to know for sure!

----------


## CanisLucidus

> I remember reading that entry actually.  Do you think the dopamine possibly resulted in a less reflective level of lucidity?



Oh you read that one?  Ha!

By less reflective, do you mean that my mood was more "get out and play" versus "sit and reflect and fret about all the ways your dream control can fail"?  If so, this seems like a fair conclusion to draw.  It's hard for me to say how strong L-Theanine's dopaminergic properties are since I haven't studied up on the literature much.  When I start playing with stuff like L-DOPA that'll give me a better basis of comparison, but right now I'd tend to say that the effect is usually pretty subtle.





> I apologize in advance, but I'm about to spew my views all over you.



This is just a great post.  When I say that Benadryl makes me feel like a zombie, I had no idea how literal I was being.   :smiley: 

I still fail to understand how you keep all of this straight without notes.  I have a hard time keeping more than 4 or 5 facts rattling around my brain at any one time.

I'm right there with you on being fascinated with the hippocampus.  Did you ever hear about the study where they found that the hippocampus of a London cab driver was significantly larger than that of an everyday person?  The size of the hippocampus actually corresponded with how long the person had been a London cabbie.  I find that very cool: Navigation-related structural change in the hippocampi of taxi drivers

----------


## Ctharlhie

@Alyzarin; That whole post was just amazing. The stuff about the hippocampus is just fascinating in the context of the philosophy I've been reading recently. I may have to be careful over Ginkgo as I have struggled with OCD in the past.

@Canis; you could try mucuna pruriens, that contains L-Dopa rather than a precursor, though I'd imagine you'd have to go easy on the dose to prevent sleeplessness.

Also, that cabbie study is amazing, unfortunately that phenomena is probably going to be increasingly rare now with satnavs...

In Advanced Lucid Dreaming, Yuschak mentions liquorice as being seratonergic by blocking reuptake, could it be used as a more mild St. John's Wort substitute?

----------


## CanisLucidus

> @Canis; you could try mucuna pruriens, that contains L-Dopa rather than a precursor, though I'd imagine you'd have to go easy on the dose to prevent sleeplessness.



Thanks -- I actually own the very bottle of L-DOPA that you hyperlinked!   ::goodjob2::   I also have L-tyrosine and N-acetyl tyrosine to help round out my catecholamine precursors.  (No phenylalanine, though.)  I'm looking to roll through these one at a time and seeing what the effects are (with small doses initially, of course.)  I space my supps out a bit, so I'm a few days from trying them.  Should be interesting though!





> Also, that cabbie study is amazing, unfortunately that phenomena is probably going to be increasingly rare now with satnavs...
> 
> In Advanced Lucid Dreaming, Yuschak mentions liquorice as being seratonergic by blocking reuptake, could it be used as a more mild St. John's Wort substitute?



Huh, I hadn't thought of the satnav systems!  No doubt that _does_ ease the burden on the hippocampus.  Yet another argument that the "cybernetic future" is already kinda-sorta here.

Hmm, you're right about the liquorice root!  No idea as to dosage... I find liquorice sort of nasty, but I'd be interested to see how this goes if you try it!  Inhibition of serotonin re-uptake by licorice... [J Mol Neurosci. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

----------


## Highlander

> Does that all make sense? I tried to make sure I brought it all back together in the end, but tell me if I missed something!



Can you draw me a picture?  :Shades wink: 

@Alyzarin - Good work on the table BTW.
It might be a help to put the specific time you took a supplement, whether it was before bed, or at WBTB; plus if you used a combo, etc. Maybe the data could be added in with the 'Sleep Duration' heading?

I know CanisLucidus keeps a very good record on the current template which clearly highlights quite easily when these supplements were taken which helps fellow experimenters on the thread, plus with overall data and record keeping for the future.  :smiley: 

@Ctharlie - I went down to the sweet shop health food shop today as there is one near where my Bro. lives, namely Holland and Barrett.
I got hold of some 200 mg Oil of Peppermint capsules, plus some Clary Sage aromatherapy oil.  :wink2: 

P.S: Regarding the Menthol (intake), I would give about 48 hrs at least as a general rule of thumb.

----------


## Ctharlhie

@Canis; Be sure to let us know how you get on! Also, I got the liquorice in capsule form, no need to chow down on allsorts before bed  :smiley:  I read about lowering testosterone levels but that 1.6g everyday for several weeks!

@Highlander; have fun with those peppermint capsules.  ::D: 

------------------

I also got a mix of skullcap (Ryan Hurd of Dreamstudies says very good things of it), hops (I'm a dedicated ale drinker so anything with hops must be good), valerian and vervain; 60 capsules of a very interesting blend of dreaming herbs for £5!

I am however very concerned by all the money I've spent at Holland and Barret (and I haven't been able to start taking any of it due to exams this week >_<), mind you nothing compared to what I spent in cafes last term, I've banned myself from coffees. All in all I think I have enough supplements to keep me going for about a year's worth of experimentation.

----------


## Ctharlhie

@Highlander; As for the report template, I agree that the way Canis shows when he took the supplements is useful. Even details such as length of WBTB and at what point in the WBTB supplements were taken would be useful.

----------


## Alyzarin

I apologize, I meant to comment on this before.... Let me just be the first to step out and say that this search for more serotonergic supplements is a bad idea. Serotonin is a red herring. It has detrimental effects on dreaming, and sexual performance. It's actually more likely to suppress sexual dreams than anything.

Every idea about serotonin enhancing dreaming is from information that was wrong or word of mouth that was misleading. Serotonin is part of the body's system regulating sleep, pushing towards deep sleep. It is the opposite of acetylcholine in this system, and if you know anything at all about dreaming, you should know that that's bad. The reason that 5-HTP is a good supplement is because of REM rebound, and nothing else. What happens is that serotonin is formed from the 5-HTP and REM is inhibited, and then it's removed from the synapse and metabolized and REM is allowed to occur, and it happens more heavily due to the build-up that occurred when it was inhibited. 5-HTP is the _only_ supplement that will work in this exact way. Every other serotonergic drug in existence, like serotonin reuptake inhibitors, works specifically be increasing the amount of time serotonin spends in the synapse, and they all have half-lives that can easily prove destructive to dreaming because this process won't end until after you would have already missed lots of dreams, i.e. the REM rebound will take too long to occur and you won't benefit from it.

People think that SSRIs are good at making dreams more vivid, but this is again wrong. Nearly every, if not every, pharmaceutical SSRI in use inhibits the activity of both acetylcholinesterase and butylcholinesterase, meaning that they stop the metabolism of acetylcholine even more effectively than galantamine. Because the ratio of acetylcholine and serotonin rises together, vivid dreams can still occur. It is unlikely that the serotonin adds much more to the dream other than the anxious or violent themes often attributed to them, as one of the only natural states where serotonin is known to exist in normal amounts during REM sleep is in people who are clinically depressed. And when it comes to St. John's wort, you're probably better off just not trying to compare it to anything else. Seriously, just spare yourself the heartache lol. There are no other known drugs even remotely similar to St. John's wort, and its effects on serotonin are so minor compared to its overall pharmacological effects, which include inhibiting the reuptake of dopamine, norepinephrine, GABA, glutamate, choline, and glycine, increasing the release of acetylcholine, blocking the activity of NMDA receptors, inhibiting the metabolism of dopamine, and many other wonderful and terrible things, almost all of which are much more likely players in its dream-related effects than its effects on serotonin.

I also feel the need to mention that serotonin is not something you should play with nearly as easily as other brain and body chemicals (as if you should play easily with any of them). Too much serotonin can go wrong very fast, and for this reason even just the idea of stacking any serotonin-based supplements together or with 5-HTP could end _very_ badly. Believe me, serotonin syndrome is an awful, awful way to leave this world.

I'm going to go out in a limb here and say that the search for replacement or even additive serotonin supplements is a dead end. 5-HTP is already the best of the best of the best.

I'm going to end this post here because I wanted to get it out before going to my next class, but I'm not going to have time to respond to other things before then. I'll get them when I get back, though!

----------


## Ctharlhie

Wow, consider me warned. I was aware of the possibility of serotonin syndrome and had read to be careful even of 5-htp, but if there's no point in pursuing serotonergics I'll take your word for it. I hadn't realised St. John's Wort had so much going on, I guess that means it shouldn't be stacked with anything (I haven't experimented with it yet).

----------


## Alyzarin

> This is just a great post.  When I say that Benadryl makes me feel like a zombie, I had no idea how literal I was being.  
> 
> I still fail to understand how you keep all of this straight without notes.  I have a hard time keeping more than 4 or 5 facts rattling around my brain at any one time.
> 
> I'm right there with you on being fascinated with the hippocampus.  Did you ever hear about the study where they found that the hippocampus of a London cab driver was significantly larger than that of an everyday person?  The size of the hippocampus actually corresponded with how long the person had been a London cabbie.  I find that very cool: Navigation-related structural change in the hippocampi of taxi drivers



Thank you.  :smiley:  Oh, and you have no idea how right you are! Have you ever heard of (dun dun dun...) scopolamine? They call it the zombie drug, and it contains a major natural anticholinergic skeleton that drugs like diphenhydramine mimic. It's the most psychoactive chemical in datura, one of the most beautiful tantalizing seductive potentially dangerous drugs there is, at least in "recreational" doses. It very much proves my point though, in more than one way. It causes you to justify every bizarre thing you do with delirious nonsense, and it does basically turn you into a zombie for up to several days, with possible aftereffects lasting an incredibly long time. It's one of those drugs that even druggies usually don't do....

I honestly don't know either though, I really should start writing all of this down before I come to regret slacking off one day lol.

But that study... is... awesome.  ::holyshit::  It makes perfect sense, too.... Just like... holy shit... their brains must keep track of so much space around them... imagine the fucking *vast* landscapes their vivid dreams could contain.... Or what a hallucinogen could create.... Oh my god....

Guys, I think I found my passion. I'm going to move to London and become a cab driver.  ::smitten:: 





> @Alyzarin; That whole post was just amazing. The stuff about the hippocampus is just fascinating in the context of the philosophy I've been reading recently. I may have to be careful over Ginkgo as I have struggled with OCD in the past.



Thanks.  ::content::  I'm glad you found it interesting. Care to share a bit about the philosophy you've been reading? I'm interested in that as well.  :smiley: 

I totally understand about the OCD, and can relate. If you do decide to try the ginkgo, what I would recommend is either having valerian root around to take and neutralize the effect, or, preferably, just a shot or two of hard liquor to get it into your system quickly. Both are GABAergic and should cancel it out. Though, for the record, if you can smoke weed and get pretty high without having to deal with anxiety, you'll probably be fine. There are some other pharmacological differences, particularly in those involving memory and perception, but one of the major mechanisms of action of cannabinoids is to lower GABA release throughout the brain. That's where the stereotypical stoner paranoia and panic attacks come from. It's unlikely that a supplement dose of ginkgo would lower activity more strongly than a decent dose of weed.





> Can you draw me a picture? 
> 
> @Alyzarin - Good work on the table BTW.
> It might be a help to put the specific time you took a supplement, whether it was before bed, or at WBTB; plus if you used a combo, etc. Maybe the data could be added in with the 'Sleep Duration' heading?
> 
> I know CanisLucidus keeps a very good record on the current template which clearly highlights quite easily when these supplements were taken which helps fellow experimenters on the thread, plus with overall data and record keeping for the future.



Will you accept an illustrated emotional response? I'm better with abstract stuff.  ::D: 

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking, keep doing it the way Canis has. I think that'll take care of it pretty well. And thanks!  :smiley: 





> Wow, consider me warned. I was aware of the possibility of serotonin syndrome and had read to be careful even of 5-htp, but if there's no point in pursuing serotonergics I'll take your word for it. I hadn't realised St. John's Wort had so much going on, I guess that means it shouldn't be stacked with anything (I haven't experimented with it yet).



Yeah, I would definitely be a careful mixing St. John's wort with things. I wouldn't totally count it out though, either. The first night I tried it as a dream enhancer I used it along with smoked damiana and I had some of the most psychedelic dreams of my life. With so many things it does, it's no wonder it can have such a crazy effect.... I tried taking a high dose of it with menthol once too but it caused really heavy insomnia and stomach cramps that had me in the bathroom for a while. Knowing what I know now, it was probably from too much dopamine and glutamate floating around.... It was interesting though, I actually had a mild dissociative effect from it. Definitely wasn't expecting that, but it is a NMDA antagonist after all. The fact that it blocks dopamine metabolism specifically really interests me too....

There's actually an interesting sort of connection between it and menthol, though. You know how capsaicin activates TRPV1 and menthol activates TRPM8? These stand for transient receptor potential cation channel subfamily V member 1 and transient receptor potential cation channel subfamily M member 8, and they're the hot and cold receptors, respectively. Well, hyperforin, one of the big main chemicals in St. John's wort, activates transient receptor potential cation channel subfamily C member 6, or TRPC6. That's supposedly how it gets its ridiculously widespread reuptake inhibition effects. It's interesting stuff....

----------


## Highlander

> Will you accept an illustrated emotional response? I'm better with abstract stuff. 
> 
> Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking, keep doing it the way Canis has. I think that'll take care of it pretty well. And thanks!



Yeah that would be cool. No problem BTW.  :smiley: 


Wed May 8th 2013

*Dose:* Menthodex cough drops (x5) = 74 mg (approx) taken during WBTB
*Side Effects:*  Gripey stomach
*Sleep Duration:*  Before = 5.75  6.5 hrs (WBTB 55 min) After = 3.5 hrs (approx) Total = 9.25  10 hrs 
*Cognitive:*  My overall recall seemed better? I experienced HI/a dream quite easily whilst resting, post WBTB.
*Sexual:*  Yes, a bare-chested (Ex) GF in a bedroom scene.
*Atmosphere:*  A general mixture of themes. A couple of famous people featured also. Nothing really emotional, etc. 
*Other Comments:*  The sexual type dream seems a recurrent one where I experience some delay or interruption, or lack of privacy. It is not exclusive to Menthol usage.
There was a varied storyline to the (non-lucid) dreams in general where they seemed to blend together, although nothing really stood out as such.
Before taking the Menthol, pre-WBTB, It was a bit of a warm evening, inc. in bed initially which may have influenced my sleeping pattern.
I have had better results when taking a much lower dose of Menthol, especially when coupled with a low dose of Vitamin B6 (10 mg) which I often combine during WBTB.

T.O.T.P. The radio. CPR demo, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## NyxCC

All right, my first menthol experiment got a bit scrambled.  :Sad:  I planned to do a WBTB and then take the p.oil tablets, but I took melatonin pre bed and got lucid before the WBTB alarm then woke up. Took the peppermint oil nevertheless but had a hard time falling asleep. Anyways here is the report:

*Date*: 7th of May
*Dose*: 2x200mg peppermint oil tablets
*Side Effects*: mild heartburn
*Sleep Duration*: 7 hrs
*Cognitive*: I had some sense of urgency during the dream which incorporated in the scenario where we were looking for a space conference. Overall vivid, had some trouble navigating the flying machine.
*Sexual*: I did not feel sexual attraction to Justin Bieber! But maybe the alarm clock interfered before any menthol thoughts managed to kick in? :Cheeky: 
*Atmosphere*: Dynamic, transitioned to happy
*Other Comments*: Here is the entry from yesterday, dream3 is after taking the peppermint oil tablets. 

Cheetah, flying DILD, Justin Bieber

----------


## PeterF

Damn Alyzarin, you'r the doc of the thread  :smiley: 
well i got my update: 
btw i'm taking Temazepam (major insomniac) so who knows how it's affecting my sleep

5-8-13
*Dose:* Halls menthol drops (x4) = 21.6mg right before bed (no method as i passed out right away classes,work, etc...)
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* Right about 7 1/2 hours, woke up a few times each less than 2 min. 
*Cognitive:* Overall everything was calm but my recall stayed the same
*Sexual:* In my main dream i was at the movie theater with a sex buddy of mine & we were getting it on  :wink2:  
                            (I became near lucid when i figured out that she'll never do anything like that in public lol)
* Atmosphere:* Pretty general, everybody was enjoying themselves
*Other Comments:* I had a chain of FA (3) don't really remember them but just 2:
1.I was in the middle of a dream when i began to notice all my teeth were falling off & blood everywhere, when i found my self not giving a F i said to my self i'm dreaming then immediately i wake up twice in some random places before i really wake up...
2. when i finally wake up i'm in sleep paralysis i use it as my chance to try & become lucid but while doing this i find the boogieman from Gorillaz  ::D:  trying to pull apart my dream body? (i'm pretty desensitized from SP also) i become semi-lucid & end up in my childhood home in my bed still paralyzed with the boogie man still there.

Anyways this was the first time using menthol so hopefully i'll better experiences in a few more days!

----------


## Alyzarin

*Unexpected Development: A Connection Between Acetylcholine, Menthol, and St. John's Wort?*

Here's something for you guys to mull over in the old noggins.

As I mentioned at the end of my last post, St. John's wort gets a lot of its diverse pharmacological effects from action of TRPC6, which is related to the receptors that capsaicin and menthol activate to cause sensations of hot and cold, respectively. I've known about this for some time now, but I had learned of it back before I was really _that_ interested in this set of receptors, since before I started researching them for menthol purposes. Since the recent discussion here had St. John's wort on my mind again, I decided to look more into it and see if I could apply some of my newer knowledge to it.

So, you guys remember that enzyme phospholipase C which is involved in the biosynthesis of endocannabinoids and is activated by both kappa-opioid and muscarinic acetylcholine receptors? It was the basis for me theorizing that there could be a synergy between menthol and cholinergic supplements. Well, as I mentioned... somewhere not too ago in this thread... the way the enzyme works directly is by cleaving phosphatidylinositol 4,5-bisphosphate into inositol 1,4,5-trisphosphate and diacylglycerol. I've looked into some interesting stuff about inositol 1,4,5-trisphosphate before, but I never really knew all that much about diacylglycerol. Today I learned something just oh so nifty. In addition to some other related receptors, diacylglycerol activates TRPC6. So let me reiterate what exactly this means. Acetylcholine enhances imagination and hallucinations, which are a product of dopaminergic activity in the hippocampus. Up until now I didn't really have any ideas about how this worked, at least not directly. But the muscarinic acetylcholine receptors which are known to have these effects activate phospholipase C. Diacylglycerol is released as an end product, and potentially it should activate TRPC6 receptors which are present in the hippocampus. These receptors inhibit the reuptake of dopamine. Ergo, dopaminergic neurotransmission is increased and visualizations/hallucinations/dreams are enhanced. In addition to this, TRPC6 enhances the release of endocannabinoids as well and negatively modulates NMDA receptors, each of which could understandably add to the bizarreness of a dream and increase it's psychedelic-like qualities, while also making the environment more vivid and solid and accounting for the dramatic increase in hypnagogia.

Kappa-opioid receptors are known to lower dopamine levels in high doses, but obviously at the doses we're taking menthol and possibly due to its other mechanisms of action, this effect doesn't come into play. It would be obvious if it were too, because a dysphoric effect would be experienced. As a result, the activation of phospholipase C by menthol could theoretically lead to this exact same enhancement of dopaminergic neurotransmission seen with acetylcholine. This is all just a theory of course, but it seems very logical to me. The tie-in with St. John's wort also becomes very clear at this point. If phospholipase C activation is responsible for even just some of the dream-enhancing effects of menthol and cholinergic supplements, then St. John's wort would actually be working through this exact same pathway, just in a more direct way that's further downstream. Maybe that's part of how it can be such an interesting dream enhancer as well? It would also support the idea of a further synergy between these supplements.

The brain is so fascinating.  ::content:: 

-----





> Yeah that would be cool. No problem BTW. 
> 
> 
> Wed May 8th 2013
> 
> *Dose:* Menthodex cough drops (x5) = 74 mg (approx) taken during WBTB
> *Side Effects:*  Gripey stomach
> *Sleep Duration:*  Before = 5.75  6.5 hrs (WBTB 55 min) After = 3.5 hrs (approx) Total = 9.25  10 hrs 
> *Cognitive:*  My overall recall seemed better? I experienced HI/a dream quite easily whilst resting, post WBTB.
> ...



Hooray, the new format!  ::D:  I think it looks good enough for now.  :tongue2: 

Since you mentioned it, and especially since we know about menthol and menthone directly stimulating dopamine release now, taking a lower dose and combining it with B6, which is used in dopamine biosynthesis, makes sense that it would provide better results. Keep in mind that there's probably a dosage curve where when the kappa-opioid receptor activity gets too strong the dopamine levels will probably start to drop back down, so now that we know more about it it's probably best to really start figuring out the perfect dose to go with!





> All right, my first menthol experiment got a bit scrambled.  I planned to do a WBTB and then take the p.oil tablets, but I took melatonin pre bed and got lucid before the WBTB alarm then woke up. Took the peppermint oil nevertheless but had a hard time falling asleep. Anyways here is the report:
> 
> *Date*: 7th of May
> *Dose*: 2x200mg peppermint oil tablets
> *Side Effects*: mild heartburn
> *Sleep Duration*: 7 hrs
> *Cognitive*: I had some sense of urgency during the dream which incorporated in the scenario where we were looking for a space conference. Overall vivid, had some trouble navigating the flying machine.
> *Sexual*: I did not feel sexual attraction to Justin Bieber! But maybe the alarm clock interfered before any menthol thoughts managed to kick in?
> *Atmosphere*: Dynamic, transitioned to happy
> ...



Oh my, a menthol dream with Justin Bieber in it? It would have been interesting to see what happened if you _did_ get the libido effect.  ::chuckle:: 

If you try again and you still have trouble sleeping, you may want to think about mixing it with another supplement like L-theanine to combat insomnia. It should help boost dopamine levels, too!





> Damn Alyzarin, you'r the doc of the thread 
> well i got my update: 
> btw i'm taking Temazepam (major insomniac) so who knows how it's affecting my sleep
> 
> 5-8-13
> *Dose:* Halls menthol drops (x4) = 21.6mg right before bed (no method as i passed out right away classes,work, etc...)
> *Side Effects:* None
> *Sleep Duration:* Right about 7 1/2 hours, woke up a few times each less than 2 min. 
> *Cognitive:* Overall everything was calm but my recall stayed the same
> ...



Hehe, well I have to look after my baby, I can't just start it and then drop the whole thing.  :tongue2: 

That sleep paralysis experience sounds awesome.  ::lol::  It's a good first go, but I would definitely recommend going with a WBTB next time if you can. I got the menthol effects from taking it at bed myself, but WBTB really does seem to be the better way to go if that's your thing. Just a thought!

-----

Also, I don't think I said this formally, so welcome to the experiment, you two.  :smiley:  I look forward to seeing more of your results!

----------


## Highlander

I wanted to use something else apart from Menthol this morning, as I didn't want to use it two days on the trot. Hopefully I can use the Peppermint oil capsules with a shorter WBTB at the weekend, or next week provided I'm in a good mood with not much to do, etc.

However, I nearly missed the boat this morning by snoozing through my WBTB time. I took a natural WBTB nearly an hour later, scurried about in the Kitchen where it was a toss up between either a banana, B6, and the LAST Green Tea bag. (A case of "Snooze, Choose, or Lose?'")

Yes the Green Tea and the B6 tablet won. I had some interesting results post WBTB!  ::shock:: 
(Hopefully it's not a fluke - plus I might still have residual Menthol in my system from yesteday?)

P.S: I've still got that used teabag lying about, so I will re-steep it until I drain every bit of theanine out of it!

----------


## NyxCC

> Unexpected Development: A Connection Between Acetylcholine, Menthol, and St. John's Wort?



That's a great post and opens up the field for some more experimentation. Great thing I have so many supplements around so that I can combine them without too much emphasis on a single one, so hopefully I can avoid desensitizing.  :wink2: 





> If you try again and you still have trouble sleeping, you may want to think about mixing it with another supplement like L-theanine to combat insomnia. It should help boost dopamine levels, too!



That's a great idea, I think my WBTB approach needs some refinement (in terms of behavior and timing) and sipping a cup of relaxing green tea may make an excellent addition! 





> Oh my, a menthol dream with Justin Bieber in it? It would have been interesting to see what happened if you did get the libido effect.



I think we will have plenty opportunity to read about libido dreams in the future. (I hope not too much though *shy*). But I have to admit I have rarely encountered cute _and_ horny DCs. Remind me of this next time JB is around.  ::D:  





> Also, I don't think I said this formally, so welcome to the experiment, you two.  I look forward to seeing more of your results!



Thanks for the warm welcome Aly and others!  :smiley:  I am also looking forward to experimenting and reading about your experiences as well.  ::banana::  Dream on!

----------


## CanisLucidus

> That's a great idea, I think my WBTB approach needs some refinement (in terms of behavior and timing) and sipping a cup of relaxing green tea may make an excellent addition!



I'm not sure whether your green tea is decaf, but keep that in mind if you're trying to get back to sleep.

Speaking of caffeinated green tea, I sometimes use just a _little_ caffeine (1-2 bags of regular green tea) in order to help make WILD come a little more readily.  The idea is that a very, very small dose of caffeine suppresses deep sleep without making it _too_ hard to go back to sleep or getting you too wired.  Of course, that's walking a fine line!  We play with this in Xanous' "Caffeine" research thread.

----------


## Ctharlhie

@Aly; keep up the good work  ::D:  I can't wait to start experimenting with the SJW/menthol combo after exams.

@Canis, any amount of caffeine at night seems plain wrong to me :S

----------


## CanisLucidus

> @Aly; keep up the good work  I can't wait to start experimenting with the SJW/menthol combo after exams.



Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing this as well!  Did I mention that I love this thread?  I do.  It's true, you know.





> @Canis, any amount of caffeine at night seems plain wrong to me :S



I know exactly what you mean.  It _does_ feel a little nuts to ingest caffeine at WBTB.  The trick, it seems, is to keep dosages very, very low.  In the 25-40 mg range, caffeine seems to help hold off deep sleep, _hopefully_ without giving you raging insomnia.

It seems to mostly play a supporting role, and after Xanous started his research into caffeine, we learned that Yuschak had been looking at the same thing.  Here's a paper where he was studying it: http://lucidconsciousness.com/wp-con...cid-Dreams.pdf  (Edit: Although I should mention that Xanous went through a phase where he used caffeine as a primary trigger with some success.)

Sorry for the caffeine crossover into the menthol thread.  I guess it's only appropriate since I'm planning on combining the two tonight.   ::D:

----------


## NyxCC

> I'm not sure whether your green tea is decaf, but keep that in mind if you're trying to get back to sleep.
> 
> Speaking of caffeinated green tea, I sometimes use just a _little_ caffeine (1-2 bags of regular green tea) in order to help make WILD come a little more readily.  The idea is that a very, very small dose of caffeine suppresses deep sleep without making it _too_ hard to go back to sleep or getting you too wired.  Of course, that's walking a fine line!  We play with this in Xanous' "Caffeine" research thread.



Well, I guess I would be doing two experiments in one then! Two-in-one? What?  ::D: 

I find that starting up my internal dialogue is a bigger problem that the small amount of green tea during WBTB. I must conduct a number of trials to see how it goes. 

Umm, just to make sure - here’s no requirement to do only menthol in this thread, right? Obviously for sake of valid results, I will try not to add too many things otherwise we won’t be able to ascertain what caused what. 

I don't want to double post if its just the methol-tea combo, so feel free to reference my results if you find them useful.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> Well, I guess I would be doing two experiments in one then! Two-in-one? What? 
> 
> I find that starting up my internal dialogue is a bigger problem that the small amount of green tea during WBTB. I must conduct a number of trials to see how it goes. 
> 
> Umm, just to make sure - here’s no requirement to do only menthol in this thread, right? Obviously for sake of valid results, I will try not to add too many things otherwise we won’t be able to ascertain what caused what.



I sure hope there's no requirement to only use menthol, because I very often combine.  Menthol is an awesome support supp because it has huge effects on dream quality and length but doesn't (for me) make as much difference on lucidity.  I wolfed down quite an assortment of aids the night of the "Weredog" dream.  Here's my post for that cocktail: http://www.dreamviews.com/research/1...ml#post2014094  (Note: I tried all of these things in isolation and worked my way methodically up to this -- I don't endorse swallowing everything in sight!   :tongue2: )

Caught your Task of the Month reference.   ::D:

----------


## Ctharlhie

Quick question. I can't find piracetam capsules anywhere, will noopept do the trick at clearing the galantamine from my system? (I'm so new at LD supplements  :Oh noes: )

EDIT: nope, there's only nootropic _powders_ on amazon, no capsules, which is a pain in the ass.

----------


## NyxCC

> Menthol is an awesome support supp because it has huge effects on dream quality and length but doesn't (for me) make as much difference on lucidity.



I am looking forward to enhanced dream quality because of menthol. But I also believe that we _may_ be able to capitalize on it and use it to become lucid indirectly. If there really are more or less persistent dream characteristics associated with menthol, then we just have to learn to identify those while dreaming. For example, “I am kissing JB, maybe this is a dream?”





> (Note: I tried all of these things in isolation and worked my way methodically up to this -- I don't endorse swallowing everything in sight!  )



Got it CL! No worries about that! I am sure outsiders may think we are supplement junkies but we are not, are we?  ::D: 

By the way, I tried fish oil and it only makes me to go into very deep, unmemorable sleep, so I won't be adding it to any cocktails unless they include salmon and some salad.  :wink2:

----------


## PeterF

> I am looking forward to enhanced dream quality because of menthol. But I also believe that we _may_ be able to capitalize on it and use it to become lucid indirectly. If there really are more or less persistent dream characteristics associated with menthol, then we just have to learn to identify those while dreaming. For example, “I am kissing JB, maybe this is a dream?”



Ny, don't know why but i think you might like JB???  ::D: 
So has anybody had any updates with green tea added?

----------


## NyxCC

> Ny, don't know why but i think you might like JB??? 
> So has anybody had any updates with green tea added?



Shhhh, quiet!  :Oops: 

Oops, I totally messed up today. For one thing, I am starting to remind myself that if there is some erotic scene, I will be lucid. Not quite there though. The plan for today was have some green tea and possibly p. oil tablets after WBTB. Was very sleepy so totally ignored my plan, had sexual contents dream, did not get lucid. Dreams were vivid because of brain multivitamin I took...My experiments are really messed up. Oh, well...next time hopefully some better results and discipline in and out of dreams.  ::D:

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Fri May 10th 2013
*Dose:* Oil of Peppermint (x1) = 200 mg (@WBTB)
*Side Effects:* Generally ok
*Sleep Duration:* Before = 5 hrs (WBTB 12 min) After = 4 hrs. Total = 9 hrs 
*Cognitive:* Normal. Auditory/H.I. Incubation
*Sexual:* No
*Atmosphere:* Normal, general family themes. Nothing (apparently) out of the ordinary noted.
*Other Comments:* A ‘normal’ morning of (NL) dreams and fragments. A hint of incubation in one of the (later) dreams.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> Quick question. I can't find piracetam capsules anywhere, will noopept do the trick at clearing the galantamine from my system? (I'm so new at LD supplements )
> 
> EDIT: nope, there's only nootropic _powders_ on amazon, no capsules, which is a pain in the ass.



Good question, Ctharlhie.  As my supply of Piracetam slowly dwindles, this is a question that I'll also need to figure out an answer for.  It seems reasonable to me that the other racetams would work, but I simply don't know whether this has been studied.

There's a 1988 study that specifically Piracetam elevates muscarinic chol... [Psychopharmacology (Berl). 1988] - PubMed - NCBI addresses piracetam's ability to increase muscarinic receptor density in "aged mice".  I'm not sure whether any similar studies have been done for the other racetams, but it's on my list of things to look into.  As fewer and fewer caps rattle around in my bottle of piracetam, this has been on my mind more and more.   :smiley: 





> I am looking forward to enhanced dream quality because of menthol. But I also believe that we _may_ be able to capitalize on it and use it to become lucid indirectly. If there really are more or less persistent dream characteristics associated with menthol, then we just have to learn to identify those while dreaming. For example, “I am kissing JB, maybe this is a dream?”



That's a very good point!  Getting to know the shape of menthol dreams and then going to bed with menthol on the brain does sound like a great way to give your brain the chance to connect the dots to lucidity.

Although, if a side effect of menthol that I have to look forward to is 106-degree Bieber Fever, _I'm out_.   ::lol:: 





> Got it CL! No worries about that! I am sure outsiders may think we are supplement junkies but we are not, are we? 
> 
> By the way, I tried fish oil and it only makes me to go into very deep, unmemorable sleep, so I won't be adding it to any cocktails unless they include salmon and some salad.



Ahh, interesting!  I have not been able to find very consistent differences in sleep quality with fish oil, but I take a good amount of the stuff anyway (for health and fitness reasons) so I've been pushing a bunch of it before bed to see what benefits it might bestow.  Haven't noticed huge differences one way or the other yet.





> Ny, don't know why but i think you might like JB??? 
> So has anybody had any updates with green tea added?



Well, I've combined menthol w/ green tea in this post/trip report: http://www.dreamviews.com/research/1...ml#post2014094.  I used galantamine and choline, too, so the green tea was specifically there to help make WILD easier to achieve.

I also used menthol and green tea last night.  I've got a DJ entry to write up on that, then I'll post my trip report in this thread later.   :smiley:

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* Pre-bed: 100mg 5-HTP, 5g fish oil;  WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 300mg Alpha-GPC, 3 bags peppermint tea, 1 bag green tea
*Side Effects:*  Many shallow, strange lucid dreams
*Sleep Duration:*  6.5 hours
*Cognitive:*  Imaginative and quite gullible.  Somewhat forgetful.
*Sexual:*  Moderate.  One mini-makeout with a DC and one extended check-out of attractive DCs.
*Atmosphere:*  Bizarre, slightly confused, with a tendency toward the dark.  One fright moment.
*Lucid:* Yes, many shallow ones.  (2 WILD, 4 DEILD.  Counted as one single, confusing LD.)

This was a repeat of the last combo that I tried, and again it was successful in getting me lucid (many many times!), but nowhere near as deeply.  Every dream that I entered felt like it was always moments from slipping away.  Dream content itself was uniformly bizarre and occasionally a little dark.  There was one DC that was trying to give me a good scare, but I managed to ignore her.

It had been a week since the last time that I tried menthol, and I wonder if I became re-sensitized during this time.  Dream bizarreness was pretty high and the slightly sexy side effects were beginning to creep their way in as well, even at this relatively low dose.

One of our dogs flipped out and started screaming in the middle of the night and I had to race down the stairs to calm her down.  So I went into this set of dreams after elevating my heart rate and getting slightly pissed off.   :tongue2:   That might be why I got lucid so readily but so tenuously.

The full DJ entry: DEILDs and Demigods - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## NyxCC

*Date*: 11 May
*Dose*: pre bed 3mg mel, WBTB1 - 2xpeppermint oil tablets, WBTB2 - 1/2 cup green tea
*Side effects*: very mild heartburn, insomnia after WBTB2
*Duration*: 3.5 hrs + wbtb1 (5mins) + 1.5 hrs = 5 hrs
*Cognitive*: extremely vivid
*Sexual*: none
*Atmosphere*: task oriented, explorative, positive, some astonishment
*Other comments*: I am happy with the vividness results and frustrated with my insomnia (nothing new), but I think I am starting to understand the problem. Took melatonin and had a natural wake about 3.5 hrs after falling asleep, decided to use this opportunity to take the p.oil capsules then. Good idea. The beginning  rebound plus the menthol resulted in what I felt was fantastic vividness. Dream contents was about lucid dreaming where I was analyzing the effects of menthol and trying to go to bed. Also got some other realistic details.  ::D: 

Lucid status menthol dream

WBTB 2: set alarm the night before because I wanted to have tea to increase my chances of being lucid. Was a bit overexcited and too much analytical so internal dialogue turned on, plus outside noise, could not fall asleep. 

Analysis: I should have noted by now that melatonin increases the chances of insomnia for me and my rather restless mind. 
Suggestions for future experiments: Combo1: early WBTB with p. oil and tea
Combo2: pre bed: mel3, micro- WBTB early on with p. oil ( no tea, and not during weekends - too noisy!)
Combo3: pre bed: other supplement ( SJW/ginko/multivit) + p. oil ?
WBTB: I am keeping a close eye on the timings, and will experiment to find the optimal spot for different supps. :Thinking:

----------


## Alyzarin

*Research Update....*

This is interesting.... It's annoying that this little abstract doesn't specifically say that (-)-menthol (the stereoisomer that natural sources generally contain) enhances glycine currents, but it does say it for just "menthol" and then it specifies (+)-menthol for "pronounced effects"... so I don't know, but the title just says menthol as well. So it's hard to say exactly, but interesting stuff nonetheless.

Modulation of human GABAA and glycine recept... [Eur J Pharmacol. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI




> *Abstract*
> 
> Effects of common monoterpenoid alcohols and ketones were investigated on recombinant human gamma-aminobutyric acid A (GABAA; alpha1beta2gamma2s) and glycine (alpha1 homomers) receptors expressed in Xenopus oocytes. GABA currents were enhanced by coapplications of 10-300 microM: (+)-menthol>(-)-menthol>(-)-borneol>>(-)-menthone=camphor enantiomers>carvone enantiomers, with menthol acting stereoselectively. By contrast, thujone diastereomers inhibited GABAA receptor currents while glycine currents were only markedly potentiated by menthol. Positive modulation by (+)-menthol was explored given its pronounced effects (e.g., at 100 microM, GABA and glycine EC20 responses increased by 496+/-113% and 135+/-56%, respectively). (+)-Menthol, 100 microM, reduced EC50 values for GABA and glycine from 82.8+/-9.9 to 25.0+/-1.8 microM, and from 98.7+/-8.6 to 75.7+/-9.4 microM respectively, with negligible effects on maximal currents. This study reveals a novel neuroactive role for menthol as a stereoselective modulator of inhibitory ligand-gated channels.



What's interesting about this is that glycine receptors cause analgesia and inhibitory action throughout the brain including extrasynaptic areas of the hippocampus, giving them depressant effects... and this positive enhancement of glycine activity is also shared by...

...alcohol:

Differential Effects of Ethanol on GABAA and Glycine Receptor-Mediated Synaptic Currents in Brain Stem Motoneurons




> *Abstract*
> 
> Ethanol potentiates glycinergic synaptic transmission to hypoglossal motoneurons (HMs). This effect on glycinergic transmission changes with postnatal development in that juvenile HMs (P913) are more sensitive to ethanol than neonate HMs (P13). We have now extended our previous study to investigate ethanol modulation of synaptic GABAA receptors (GABAARs), because both GABA and glycine mediate inhibitory synaptic transmission to brain stem motoneurons. We tested the effects of ethanol on GABAergic and glycinergic miniature inhibitory postsynaptic currents (mIPSCs) recorded from neonate and juvenile rat HMs in an in vitro slice preparation. Bath application of 30 mM ethanol had no significant effect on the GABAergic mIPSC amplitude or frequency recorded at either age. At 100 mM, ethanol significantly decreased the GABAergic mIPSC amplitude recorded from neonate (6 ± 3%, P < 0.05) and juvenile (16 ± 3%, P < 0.01) HMs. The same concentration of ethanol increased the GABAergic mIPSC frequency recorded from neonate (64 ± 17%, P < 0.05) and juvenile (40 ± 15%, n.s.) HMs. In contrast, 100 mM ethanol robustly potentiated glycinergic mIPSC amplitude in neonate (31 ± 3%, P < 0.0001) and juvenile (41 ± 7%, P < 0.001) HMs. These results suggest that glycine receptors are more sensitive to modulation by ethanol than GABAA receptors and that 100 mM ethanol has the opposite effect on GABAAR-mediated currents in juvenile HMs, that is, inhibition rather than enhancement. Further, comparing ethanol's effects on GABAergic mIPSC amplitude and frequency, ethanol modulates GABAergic synaptic transmission to HMs differentially. Presynaptically, ethanol enhances mIPSC frequency while postsynaptically it decreases mIPSC amplitude.



...and THC:

Cannabinoid potentiation of glycine receptors ... [Nat Chem Biol. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI




> *Abstract*
> 
> Cannabinoids enhance the function of glycine receptors (GlyRs). However, little is known about the mechanisms and behavioral implication of cannabinoid-GlyR interaction. Using mutagenesis and NMR analysis, we have identified a serine at 296 in the GlyR protein critical for the potentiation of I(Gly) by Δ(9)-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), a major psychoactive component of marijuana. The polarity of the amino acid residue at 296 and the hydroxyl groups of THC are critical for THC potentiation. Removal of the hydroxyl groups of THC results in a compound that does not affect I(Gly) when applied alone but selectively antagonizes cannabinoid-induced potentiating effect on I(Gly) and analgesic effect in a tail-flick test in mice. The cannabinoid-induced analgesia is absent in mice lacking α3GlyRs but not in those lacking CB1 and CB2 receptors. These findings reveal a new mechanism underlying cannabinoid potentiation of GlyRs, which could contribute to some of the cannabis-induced analgesic and therapeutic effects.



What these two studies are essentially implying is that glycine receptors play a role in the behavioral effects of both alcohol and weed consumption. This would mean that it's possible that menthol could share some of these effects, particularly related to relaxation and mood lift and potentially resulting effects like lowered inhibitions. Since menthol also effects GABA this means that it would actually have an even larger chance to cause alcohol-like changes in behavior, in addition to its kappa-opioid overlap with CB1 receptors' dynorphin release....

I just thought this was a cool little note. Maybe there's even more than we already thought to menthol's "recreational" dream mood effects?

-----





> That's a great post and opens up the field for some more experimentation. Great thing I have so many supplements around so that I can combine them without too much emphasis on a single one, so hopefully I can avoid desensitizing.



Thanks! And that's good, you can definitely get the most out of them that way.  :smiley: 





> Thanks for the warm welcome Aly and others!  I am also looking forward to experimenting and reading about your experiences as well.  Dream on!



You're very welcome!  ::content:: 





> @Aly; keep up the good work  I can't wait to start experimenting with the SJW/menthol combo after exams.



Thanks, I look forward to seeing your results with the combo!  :smiley: 





> Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing this as well!  Did I mention that I love this thread?  I do.  It's true, you know.



This thread loves you too, Canis.  :Clairity's Hug: 





> Quick question. I can't find piracetam capsules anywhere, will noopept do the trick at clearing the galantamine from my system? (I'm so new at LD supplements )
> 
> EDIT: nope, there's only nootropic _powders_ on amazon, no capsules, which is a pain in the ass.



I have a source where you can still get piracetam, if you need it. They also have noopept, and aniracetam. And sometimes they have pramiracetam, but I'm not sure about right now.... Anyway, what do you mean by clearing the galantamine? Upregulating acetylcholine receptors? If that's the case, noopept can do that. It increases the expression of BDNF, which upregulates them.





> *Date*: 11 May
> *Dose*: pre bed 3mg mel, WBTB1 - 2xpeppermint oil tablets, WBTB2 - 1/2 cup green tea
> *Side effects*: very mild heartburn, insomnia after WBTB2
> *Duration*: 3.5 hrs + wbtb1 (5mins) + 1.5 hrs = 5 hrs
> *Cognitive*: extremely vivid
> *Sexual*: none
> *Atmosphere*: task oriented, explorative, positive, some astonishment
> *Other comments*: I am happy with the vividness results and frustrated with my insomnia (nothing new), but I think I am starting to understand the problem. Took melatonin and had a natural wake about 3.5 hrs after falling asleep, decided to use this opportunity to take the p.oil capsules then. Good idea. The beginning  rebound plus the menthol resulted in what I felt was fantastic vividness. Dream contents was about lucid dreaming where I was analyzing the effects of menthol and trying to go to bed. Also got some other realistic details. 
> 
> ...



Congrats on the vividness!  :smiley:  That menthol dream is pretty hilarious, you were so close!  ::lol::

----------


## Alyzarin

*Another Update!*

This is not so much something new about menthol but about something more it potentially does....

This is more a paper than a study but I found it mentioned in several places and this pretty much sums it up: Rem Sleep Paralysis and RBD - Cristina Badino e Chiara Barberis.

So basically, what it says is.... simultaneous activation of GABA(B) and GABA(A)/glycine receptors in the pons is responsible for REM atonia, aka, sleep paralysis. _And if the last study I posted is right, menthol hits two out of the three._ In fact, because of the way alcohol's GABA effects work, it may do it even more effectively than that....

Maybe that's why it's so great for WILDing?

----------


## dutchraptor

Well I bought 60 200mg capsules and have taken them twice now and both times I got absolutely nothing. If there was a difference in my dream it was completely unnoticeable. 
Weird how one or two cups of fresh fragrant peppermint tea could have such an impact upon my dreams, and a huge 200mg of peppermint oil could do nothing...

----------


## Ctharlhie

@Aly; your research is so inspiring. I can't believe no one caught on to menthol as a dream enhancer before.

@dutch; bah, don't go saying that  :Sad:  still I'm trying my peppermint capsules tonight, with b5 and choline/inositol. Should I imbibe alcohol before bed as well? (Before bed of course)

----------


## Alyzarin

> Well I bought 60 200mg capsules and have taken them twice now and both times I got absolutely nothing. If there was a difference in my dream it was completely unnoticeable. 
> Weird how one or two cups of fresh fragrant peppermint tea could have such an impact upon my dreams, and a huge 200mg of peppermint oil could do nothing...



You may want to try a higher dose? Remember that the peppermint tea also has things like vitamins in it. I'd guess that the purer source you get the higher dose you might need.





> @Aly; your research is so inspiring. I can't believe no one caught on to menthol as a dream enhancer before.



Thanks, Ctharlhie.  :smiley:  It was just a lucky find anyway though, I had no idea it had all these different receptor affinities or anything. I'm sure people have noticed something from peppermint tea before, especially since it used to be used as an aphrodisiac. I guess it just never caught on as much as others though, but I'm sure there are plenty of other unknown dream enhancers too!

----------


## Ctharlhie

Has anyone used this brand for galantamine before? Will be trustworthy/good quality. My other option is to import from the states, which is a bit expensive. Alternatively there's always the Huperzine A route... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Source-Natur...hu-rd_add_1_dp, which does seem much better value, G is pretty expensive. 

@Xanous, you had success with Huperzine?

Also, on the subject of amino acids, was it decided that l-glutamine is the best for lucid dreaming?

----------


## Xanous

> @Xanous, you had success with Huperzine?



Yes it's almost a good as galantamine.  400mcg works best for me.  I bought the puritan's pride brand.  I don't think I've combined it with menthol yet though...  Just DMAE and choline.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> Has anyone used this brand for galantamine before? Will be trustworthy/good quality.



Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with this brand.  I've used Galantamind as my source for G.





> @Xanous, you had success with Huperzine?



I'm starting to rotate huperzine-A, and actually had a lucid dream with it this morning.  200 mcg didn't work as well for me as 400 mcg seemed to, but there are few downsides to starting with small doses first and seeing what works for you.  I'd also recommend keeping huperzine-A spaced out just like you would G.  Yuschak's guideline of putting 4 days in between doses is probably a good rough guideline to follow.





> Also, on the subject of amino acids, was it decided that l-glutamine is the best for lucid dreaming?



It's certainly the most accessible!  Yuschak said that he'd become lucid w/ just L-glutamine and L-theanine but that it worked significantly better when he included L-aspartic acid.  Unfortunately, L-aspartic acid is a bit more annoying to acquire.  (I'm assuming you're talking about Yuschak's amino acid blend here.)  I'm experimenting w/ cutting out the L-theanine myself and probably throwing in a little caffeine.  Work in progress.   :smiley:

----------


## Alyzarin

> Also, on the subject of amino acids, was it decided that l-glutamine is the best for lucid dreaming?



I think that'd be pretty hard to settle on, but L-glutamine can definitely have positive effects. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't starting to get interested in a choline/L-glutamine/L-glycine/GABA (or maybe picamilon for better brain penetration) mix....





> It's certainly the most accessible!  Yuschak said that he'd become lucid w/ just L-glutamine and L-theanine but that it worked significantly better when he included L-aspartic acid.  Unfortunately, L-aspartic acid is a bit more annoying to acquire.



L-Aspartic Acid Pure Powder 500g (1.1 lb, 17.6 oz), Food Grade for Energy. - Amazon

Source Naturals L-Aspartic Acid Powder 100Gm - DrVita

Looking for this?  :smiley:

----------


## gab

> Quick question. I can't find piracetam capsules anywhere, will noopept do the trick at clearing the galantamine from my system? (I'm so new at LD supplements )
> 
> EDIT: nope, there's only nootropic _powders_ on amazon, no capsules, which is a pain in the ass.



I had trouble finding it too, but here is a web that also sells it. NuTriVene 
This is the brand I used. It says, it will be discontinued after june.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> I think that'd be pretty hard to settle on, but L-glutamine can definitely have positive effects. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't starting to get interested in a choline/L-glutamine/L-glycine/GABA (or maybe picamilon for better brain penetration) mix....



Ooh, you have my attention... keep us updated if you do/think anything in this area.   :smiley:   The GABA/picamilon is an interesting twist.  How's that fit into the overall effect you're going for?





> L-Aspartic Acid Pure Powder 500g (1.1 lb, 17.6 oz), Food Grade for Energy. - Amazon
> 
> Source Naturals L-Aspartic Acid Powder 100Gm - DrVita
> 
> Looking for this?



Sweeeet...   :smiley:   I wound up using the Source Naturals one off of iHerb, but the price Aly found is actually even a little bit lower than what I paid.  L-glutamine is nice because you can just waltz into GNC or any nutritional store where you find enormous men w/ no necks congregating.   ::chuckle:: 





> I had trouble finding it too, but here is a web that also sells it. NuTriVene 
> This is the brand I used. It says, it will be discontinued after june.



Thanks for the link, gab!  That's also the brand that I used, except I bought it off Amazon before they quit selling piracetam.  Just this morning I stared at my bottle and made a mental note to visit their website in the hopes they sold directly.  It's disappointing to hear that they're discontinuing after June.   :Sad:

----------


## Ctharlhie

So many trigger combinations, so little funds... :Oh noes:

----------


## Alyzarin

> Ooh, you have my attention... keep us updated if you do/think anything in this area.    The GABA/picamilon is an interesting twist.  How's that fit into the overall effect you're going for?



Will do! Well, I would prefer picamilon over GABA since GABA alone has really low blood-brain barrier penetration, and picamilon is just a prodrug that passes into the brain first made by mixing GABA with niacin. That means that in addition to activating central GABA receptors it also increases blood flow to the brain, which has a nootropic effect. I've often used niacin to clear anxiety attacks because it gets rid of my brain fog. So with those in place, by taking L-glycine you would logically be activating GABA(B) and GABA(A)/glycine receptors in the brain stem, potentiating the natural REM atonia mechanism. The L-glutamine would also lead to enhanced glutamate that would activate the kainate receptors and induce REM, just like the choline with muscarinic receptors. I'd probably add more into it too, but that would just be the basic idea....





> Sweeeet...    I wound up using the Source Naturals one off of iHerb, but the price Aly found is actually even a little bit lower than what I paid.  L-glutamine is nice because you can just waltz into GNC or any nutritional store where you find enormous men w/ no necks congregating.



Ah yes, those are some of my favorite places.  ::D:  Speaking of which, I may need to stop by the GNC right by my house soon....





> So many trigger combinations, so little funds...



And they'll keep coming out with more and more from now until the end of time.  :Bliss:

----------


## CanisLucidus

> Will do! Well, I would prefer picamilon over GABA since GABA alone has really low blood-brain barrier penetration, and picamilon is just a prodrug that passes into the brain first made by mixing GABA with niacin. That means that in addition to activating central GABA receptors it also increases blood flow to the brain, which has a nootropic effect. I've often used niacin to clear anxiety attacks because it gets rid of my brain fog. So with those in place, by taking L-glycine you would logically be activating GABA(B) and GABA(A)/glycine receptors in the brain stem, potentiating the natural REM atonia mechanism. The L-glutamine would also lead to enhanced glutamate that would activate the kainate receptors and induce REM, just like the choline with muscarinic receptors. I'd probably add more into it too, but that would just be the basic idea....



Ah cool!  I had never been sure whether niacin increased cerebral blood flow or not.  I'd heard that it did but then got caught up in conflicting and kind of ambiguous information when I briefly tried to look into it.  I always thought that sounded like it could make niacin useful for combining with virtually _any_ lucid aid.  Played with it once but hadn't gotten around to it again.

Anyway, great plan.  I'm embarrassed that I didn't think to connect the picamilon idea with your earlier research update on the connection between the GABA receptors and REM atonia!  Duh...

This stuff gets me crazy excited.

----------


## Alyzarin

> Ah cool!  I had never been sure whether niacin increased cerebral blood flow or not.  I'd heard that it did but then got caught up in conflicting and kind of ambiguous information when I briefly tried to look into it.  I always thought that sounded like it could make niacin useful for combining with virtually _any_ lucid aid.  Played with it once but hadn't gotten around to it again.
> 
> Anyway, great plan.  I'm embarrassed that I didn't think to connect the picamilon idea with your earlier research update on the connection between the GABA receptors and REM atonia!  Duh...
> 
> This stuff gets me crazy excited.



Oh yeah, being a vasodilator is like it's main benefit. I always have it around just in case experiments go wrong too, because in the drug world (note: distinct from the supplement world) more often than not experiments are done with things that cause vasoconstriction. It's good to be prepared for unexpected circumstances....

I wouldn't be shocked if niacin went with just about anything. It is a vitamin, after all, and those are good for you.  :smiley:  I'm actually working on a vitamin and mineral routine setup right now. Don't be surprised if I go a little crazy for a while because all of my brain functions are hypersaturated. >.> With any luck my brain will start melting from too many feel good chemicals floating around all the time.  ::content:: 

I know what you mean, too. Supplements are fun.  ::smitten::

----------


## Ctharlhie

*Date*: 14th May
*Dose*: a pint in the evening, WBTB: 500mg choline, 500mg inositol, 500mg B5, 400mg menthol
*Side Effects*: heartburn, insomnia, minty fresh breath.
*Sleep Duration*: 8hrs WBTB at 5am, 20 mins
*Cognitive*: fanciful associations, surrealism
*Sexual*: fell in love with a DC who had a troubled childhood, menthol darkness meant she was also a bit of a psychopath.
*Atmosphere*: colourful, detailed, feelings of uncertainty, intimacy that was uncomfortable rather than pleasant
*Other Comments*: as I was falling asleep I felt that menthol inertia again, I can seriously see that menthol might have some impact on REM, it felt like I was only seconds from REM sleep when I lost awareness. I need to sort out the pesky insomnia, whether its the B5, the menthol or my WBTB timing.

----------


## Alyzarin

> *Dose*: a pint in the evening, WBTB: 500mg choline, 500mg inositol, 500mg B5, *400mg menthol*



I'm guessing you mean peppermint oil right? Otherwise, I have many more questions.  ::lol:: 





> *Sexual*: fell in love with a DC who had a troubled childhood, menthol darkness meant she was also a bit of a psychopath.
> *Atmosphere*: colourful, detailed, feelings of uncertainty, intimacy that was uncomfortable rather than pleasant



Sounds tasty.... What about it was uncomfortable? Lol.

----------


## Ctharlhie

Yes 400mg of peppermint oil xP

I dunno, she was really into me, in a restraining order sort of way. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't hot all the same. ^_^;

Oh and something I forgot to mention, my sense of smell was really active in the dream, which is almost never the case.

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Wed May 15th 2013
*Dose:* (Bed) Oil of Peppermint capsule (x1) = 200 mg. (WBTB) Oil of Peppermint capsule (x1) = 200 mg. (Total = 400 mg)
All taken with water.
*Side Effects:* Ok.
*Sleep Duration:* (4.75)-5.75 hrs before (WBTB 15 min) 3.5 hrs after. Total = (8.25)-9.25 hrs
*Cognitive:* Very good recall. Regression effect. Brief lucidity (DILD) plus semi-lucidty. Memorable. Lots of H.I. V-WILD attempted due to state of mind/Hypnagogia. (Post-WBTB)
*Sexual:* Yes 
*Atmosphere:* Highly vivid, highly emotional, sinister and nightmarish at one point. Colourful and bright. (Post-WBTB)
*Other Comments:* Lots of fragments and short dreams were recorded which were mainly pre-WBTB.
I still feel the (emotional) effects of the Lucid dream!
(N.B: Results may possibly be skewed by the fact that there was still a residue of Clary Sage aromatherapy oil on my pillow from yesterday evening’s relaxation/meditation, plus I held the Quartz crystal in my left hand, post-WBTB as a form of Totem.) 

I don’t think that one swallow makes a summer, due to certain variables for example, like the change in my sleep amount(s,) R.E.M. times, and timings, etc. but who knows?

http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/high...tc-dild-46443/

----------


## Ctharlhie

Interesting idea there taking menthol before bed and during WBTB, do you think there was a difference?

----------


## Highlander

I seemed to sleep ok with no heartburn where it appears that I remembered general fragments only, whereas post-wbtb is where all the 'fun' started happening - I use that term loosely!
Therefore it could have possibly boosted/affected the latter stages?

Compare this with last weeks entry http://www.dreamviews.com/research/1...ml#post2016525 entry #740

I may have got a slight rem rebound from the start of the week. (Mon?) I could not get back to sleep properly after a WBTB?

----------


## Alyzarin

> Yes 400mg of peppermint oil xP
> 
> I dunno, she was really into me, in a restraining order sort of way. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't hot all the same. ^_^;
> 
> Oh and something I forgot to mention, my sense of smell was really active in the dream, which is almost never the case.



Ah, I see.  ::chuckle::  Well that's cool.  :tongue2:  That is interesting, too.... Did you have some reason to pay attention to what you were smelling?

----------


## Ctharlhie

> Ah, I see.  Well that's cool.  That is interesting, too.... Did you have some reason to pay attention to what you were smelling?



The dream was generally... Sensual.

----------


## Alyzarin

> The dream was generally... Sensual.



Gotcha, gotcha. Well that could have just been why then.  :tongue2:  The more you focus on it, you know?

----------


## Ctharlhie

I was looking through results with valerian in the thread and came across this: 



> *Dose:*  Pre-bed: 2g fish oil  WBTB: 23.2mg menthol (6 cough drops), 250mg DMAE, 900mg Valerian Root, 4g fish oil
> *Side Effects:* None
> *Sleep Duration:* 6.5 hours
> *WBTB:* Yes (20 minutes)
> *Lucid:* No
> *Vividness:* Completely lifelike (!)
> *Stability:* n/a
> *Dream Comments:* One of the most vivid NLDs of my life.
> 
> ...



I got some omega 3 capsules today (which just seems like a great supplement for dreams overall anyway) and I'm going to replicate this combo tonight, pretty excited about what the results might be.  ::D:

----------


## CanisLucidus

> I was looking through results with valerian in the thread and came across this: 
> I got some omega 3 capsules today (which just seems like a great supplement for dreams overall anyway) and I'm going to replicate this combo tonight, pretty excited about what the results might be.



Wow, Ctharlhie, I remember that one well!  I still get this wistful little twinge just thinking about it.  Alyzarin has talked about NLDs that are actually _better_ when you're non-lucid because you allow yourself to be fooled into believing the illusion is real.  This was one of those.

Good luck with the combo!  You've got the DMAE, too?  Looking forward to hearing how it goes for you!

----------


## Ctharlhie

Choline rather than DMAE, but DMAE is basically a choline precursor, right?

I'm looking forward to it, hoping for a WILD, failing that the NLDs should be worth it alone.

Should I start with small doses of fish oil and valerian?

----------


## CanisLucidus

> Choline rather than DMAE, but DMAE is basically a choline precursor, right?
> 
> I'm looking forward to it, hoping for a WILD, failing that the NLDs should be worth it alone.
> 
> Should I start with small doses of fish oil and valerian?



To be completely frank, I still don't understand everything that's going on with DMAE.  I know that DMAE is converted to choline in the liver, but that won't cross the blood-brain barrier to the brain.  This study makes me a bit skeptical that it gets converted to ACh in the brain: Is 2-dimethylaminoethanol (deanol) inde... [J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1977] - PubMed - NCBI  I'm not sure, but I feel like there's more going on there.

Aly found some references a while back that seemed to indicate that DMAE had some sort of direct interaction with nicotinic ACh receptors.  Since DMAE easily penetrates the BBB, this could be where the magic comes from.

_Something_ is going on with DMAE, that much I believe.  I got some very good lucids using DMAE as a trigger, particularly when I backed it with menthol.  Anecdotal, yes, but one's own anecdotes always seem so powerful.   ::D:   I was a bit annoyed that DMAE worked as well as it did since my understanding of its method of action is so poor.   :Cheeky: 

Sure, you may want to try starting small with the Valerian.  I'm not especially cautious about the fish oil since I've taken it in 6-9 gram quantities daily for many years.  (Health and fitness reasons.)

Good luck!

----------


## Xanous

Wait. Did we change format? No matter. 

*Dose*: Pre-bed: 400mcg Huperzine, 200mg DMAE, 4g fish oil; WBTB:400mcg Huperzine, 200mg DMAE, 1/4 cup peppermint leaves
*Side Effects*: Nausea, Fatigue, slight insomnia
*Sleep Duration*: 10ish hours total
*Cognitive*:Forgetful. Couldn't remember tasks well. Aimless wondering. 
*Sexual*: Brief. Make out session. wanted more but DC refused. Lost interest.
*Atmosphere*: Big darkness battle. Couldn't look up. Dream control challenging. Easy DEILDs. Hard SP

I don't need to be told that I over did it with huperzine. I paid for it this morning.  ::embarrassed::  I'm really down about that. On the bright side I had 4 LD's and it seems the addition of menthol increased lucidity. Not too shabby. Next time (from now on) I'll go with a more reasonable 400mcg at WBTB and see how menthol effects me then.

The Clothing Store - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Allons-y? - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
The Joyride - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
You Can't Say That - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## dutchraptor

*Dose*: WBTB 200mg peppermint oil.
*Side Effects*: None
*Sleep Duration*: 6.5hr
*Cognitive* :tongue2: retty much useless
*Sexual*: None at all
*Atmosphere*: Awesome casual atmosphere. There was an epic cartoony but apocalyptic style to everything without feeling depressing or childish. 

Despite the lack of lucidity my dreams were AWESOME. Finally I got those familiar menthol dreams, It wasn't dark or surreal but I had no problems, felt really good and the story was always smooth and flowing. I had a lot more powers than in usual dreams and they weren't about everyday life either  ::D:

----------


## Shadow12ogue

I know of a few nootropic companies that sell capsuled piracetam and other various noots. Smart Drugs for Thought has been a fairly reliable source for those ordering internationally and they also have pretty fast shipping. JLNootropics also sells capsuled noots but I don't have much experience with them.

----------


## Ctharlhie

*Dose:*Pre-bed; 3g fish oil, 500mg B5, 200mg peppermint oil, WBTB; 500mg choline bitartrate, 500mg inositol, 200mg peppermint oil, 674mg valerian root
*Side-effects:* None.
*Sleep duration:* ~8hrs
*Cognitive:* reasoning took a back seat, I RCd a few times but just tried to wake up.
*Sexual:*Nope.
*Atmosphere:*Fucking mindscarring, timebending multidimensional portal-hopping pursued by a nameless fear... My kind of dream.
*Other comments:* Phew, that was probably the most intense night of dreaming since I first experimented with menthol. Definitely qualified as nightmarish, multiple FA chains again. I seemed be dreaming constantly from when I returned to bed to when I got up in the morning, there was so much dreaming that seemed totally real at the time but I now can't remember because there was just too much to recall.

 I love that menthol gives me these Lovecraftian horror dreams.  ::D:

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Fri May 17th 2013
*Dose:* (Bed) Oil of Peppermint capsule (x1) = 200 mg. (WBTB) Oil of Peppermint capsule (x1) = 200 mg. (Total = 400 mg)
All taken with water.
*Side Effects:* Ok.
*Sleep Duration:* Approx 5 hrs before (WBTB 13 min) 4 hrs after. Total = 9 hrs (approx)
*Cognitive:* Very good recall. Hallucination(s) (FA type.) Brief lucidity (DILD.) HI. Lots of dreams and fragments recorded. Good sleep (mainly pre-WBTB.)
*Sexual:* No
*Atmosphere:* Very vivid (visuals and audio) noted with night scenes. Threats at one stage in the latter dream, otherwise subjects seem relatively normal.
*Other Comments:* Quite promising results so far.
(N.B: I held the Quartz crystal in my left hand, post-WBTB as a form of Totem.) 

http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/high...tc-dild-46504/

----------


## NyxCC

*Date*: 17 May
*Dose*: WBTB 2x200mg p.oil tablets, green tea; pre bed: 120 mg gingko
*Side effects*: tablets are really strong, but it was ok this time
*Sleep duration*: appx. 8:30 (including WBTB 10 mins, and being woken up)
*Cognitive*: extremely vivid, strong emotions, mostly on the positive side
*Sexual*: No
*Atmosphere*: some creepy moments but not that scary, lots of positivity and bizarre occurrences (animals and a strange smart kid), talking about dreams, felt close to lucid!
*Other Comments*: I was very happy with the gingko-menthol-tea combo. While odds were against me (woken up 5 times by different things), which made me lose some dream memories, I managed to remember few of them, and only lost like half an hour of sleep for 5 wakes. The main point: really vivid and positive emotions, left me with a good mood when I woke up. I look forward to trying this combo again.

Creepy stairs, smart kid, panda-like creature/

----------


## Highlander

Attachment 4840

Peppermint Pig!

----------


## Alyzarin

Am I the only one depressed by the fact that damn near every nootropic company in the existence sells all the exact same supplements? ._.;;

I'm loving the results, congrats everyone.  ::content:: 





> *Dose:*Pre-bed; 3g fish oil, 500mg B5, 200mg peppermint oil, WBTB; 500mg choline bitartrate, 500mg inositol, 200mg peppermint oil, 674mg valerian root
> *Side-effects:* None.
> *Sleep duration:* ~8hrs
> *Cognitive:* reasoning took a back seat, I RCd a few times but just tried to wake up.
> *Sexual:*Nope.
> *Atmosphere:*Fucking mindscarring, timebending multidimensional portal-hopping pursued by a nameless fear... My kind of dream.
> *Other comments:* Phew, that was probably the most intense night of dreaming since I first experimented with menthol. Definitely qualified as nightmarish, multiple FA chains again. I seemed be dreaming constantly from when I returned to bed to when I got up in the morning, there was so much dreaming that seemed totally real at the time but I now can't remember because there was just too much to recall.
> 
>  I love that menthol gives me these Lovecraftian horror dreams.



I love ittttt.  :armflap:  Betcha thought I was kidding with that example overdose huh? I know my stuff.  ::movingmrgreen::

----------


## Ctharlhie

Basically what I got involved in this thread for  ::D:  I don't think anyone questions that you know your stuff  ::roll::

----------


## NyxCC

Speaking of dosages has anyone tried 3 peppermint tablets?  :tongue2:

----------


## Alyzarin

Well you guys, I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow and I'm not going to have a computer with me so I'm going to be gone for at least the next 10-12 days. Until then I'll be totally unreachable but after that you can still talk to me by PM, I'm just planning to also go on a break for a little bit after getting back. I'll miss you guys, I hope you all keep getting good results and have good luck getting lucid.  :smiley: 

Have a good end of the month, I'll see you all later.  :Hug it out:

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Mon May 20th 2013
*Dose:* (Bed) Oil of Peppermint capsule (x1) = 200 mg. (WBTB) Oil of Peppermint capsule (x1) = 200 mg. (Total = 400 mg)
All taken with water.
*Side Effects:* Ok.
*Sleep Duration:* Approx (5.25)-6 hrs before (WBTB 27 min) 3 hrs after. Total = (8.25)-9 hrs approx.
*Cognitive:* Average recall, general, NLD, etc.
*Sexual:* Yes – one dream had a sexual overtone to it.
*Atmosphere:* Generally normal, although one of the dreams was rather sinister.
*Other Comments:* Some mainly work-related dreams and fragments recorded.

----------


## Ctharlhie

*Dose:*Pre-sleep; 500mg B5, 3g fish oil, 200mg peppermint oil; WBTB; 500mg choline, 500mg inositol, 200mg peppermint oil
*Side-effects:*
*Sleep duration:* ~8hrs, 10mins WBTB after 4hrs sleep
*Cognitive:* semi-lucid control, believed myself to be dream sharing with some friends
*Sexual:* No
*Atmosphere:* macabre/gothic towards the end of the dream, sleepy hollow overtones.
*Comments:* first experiment with SSILD

Next time i'll probably gonna try valerian again, upping the dose from last time, or St. John's Wort.

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Wed May 22nd 2013
*Dose:* (Bed) Honey and Lemon Lockets (x5) = 48.5 mg (WBTB) Honey and Lemon Lockets (x5) = 48.5 mg.  (Menthol total = 97 mg)
*Side Effects:* Slight gripey stomach/wind. (See note)
*Sleep Duration:* 5.5 hrs before (WBTB 40 min) 3.75 hrs after. Total = 9.25 hrs
*Cognitive:* Average recall. HI and visuals. 
*Sexual:* No
*Atmosphere:* Trippy and colourful at one point (pre-WBTB.) Interesting storyline in main dream (post-WBTB.)
*Other Comments:* I did experience a slight panic attack just after the first (probable) REM stage in the early to middle of the night after recording the first dream. (A couple or so ‘cold-waves’/mental thoughts induced it after dwelling on my dream.)
My recall is a bit flat/down this week which would have affected my result possibly, in a negative way.
FA/DEILD-themed (NL) dream noted. (Pre-WBTB)

Carter U.S.M. The party, etc. - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* Pre-bed: 100mg 5-HTP, 5g fish oil;  WBTB: 4 bags peppermint tea, 800mg mucuna pruriens
*Side Effects:* Moderate insomnia.  Dream friskiness.
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
*Cognitive:* Recall was average.  Vividness very high during LD.  Overall dream quantity slightly below average.  (Surprising -- could be due to slight insomnia.)
*Sexual:* Very very!  The lucid dream was almost 100% me pursuing (and then having) sex with my wife.   ::chuckle::   Early NLD was non-sexual.
*Atmosphere:* Sexy.
*Lucid:* Yes

Menthol + mucuna pruriens = ultra frisky mode!   ::o:   So am I the first one to combine menthol with one of the other dopaminergics?  The result in my case was a very one-dimensional but very fun lucid dream.

Here's the LD: Menthol and Marriage - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Note on Mucuna Pruriens: Mucuna pruriens contains L-DOPA, a precursor to dopamine.  Even though there aren't any known problems with mucuna in the recommended dosages for healthy people, you'd want to be careful to keep dosages low and probably avoid entirely if you have a family history of mental illness.

----------


## Ctharlhie

I like how you try to come on to your wife in a dream when she's physically lying next to you. Dream logic.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> I like how you try to come on to your wife in a dream when she's physically lying next to you. Dream logic.



LOL.  That's true!  Then again, when it's 3 AM on a work morning and the kids have been waking up throughout the night, sometimes you awaken your spouse at your own peril.   ::lol::

----------


## Ctharlhie

> LOL.  That's true!  Then again, when it's 3 AM on a work morning and the kids have been waking up throughout the night, sometimes you awaken your spouse at your own peril.



Point taken.

When you have sex with your wife in a dream is it monogamy, adultery, or masturbation?

----------


## Xanous

> WBTB: 4 bags peppermint tea, 120mg L-DOPA



Nice use of L-Dopa. I may have to dig my bottle out and use it for something other than a morning boost. ::goodjob::

----------


## CanisLucidus

> When you have sex with your wife in a dream is it monogamy, adultery, or masturbation?



Ha!  That's probably one for the philosophers.  But I'd say that it depends on who you ask.

According to CanisLucidus: "Beautiful, romantic monogamy, and an expression in the dream world of our love and attraction."
According to Wife: "Eww.   ::shakehead2::  _Boys._"

 ::chuckle:: 





> Nice use of L-Dopa. I may have to dig my bottle out and use it for something other than a morning boost.



I remember that you had insane levels of dream control when you stacked mucuna pruriens with G+C!  Wasn't that how you ripped through the "Europe" Task of the Year?  I also recall that you found the dreams a bit rushed and less vivid, perhaps...?

If you try it, I'll be curious to see whether you deal with any insomnia.  I was a little alarmed by how awake I felt by the end of WBTB.

----------


## Xanous

I think it was how short the dreams were that bothered me and though it was a full lucid dream it felt sort of movie like. More visual and auditory than physical.

----------


## NyxCC

*Date*: 21 May
*Dose*: pre bed 120mg gingko, WBTB: 2x200mg p.oil capsules
*Side Effects*: good mood
*Sleep duration*: appx. 8 hrs
*Cognitive*: dreams were not very interesting, but extremely vivid. Unfortunately my recall was quite poor.
*Sexual*: no
*Atmosphere*: normal to positive, a rehash of old memories and people, also one short chase with some dark-gray creature that looked like a mix between a dog and hulk.
*Other comments*: This is the second time I am trying this combo (gingko-p.oil tablets) and I have woken up very recharged and had ultra positive mood that lasted up to an hour after wake. 

Not much to read but here's the entry anyways. DJ Entry 21 May

----------


## Xanous

*Dose:* Pre-bed: 1mg melatonin, 3g fish oil; WBTB: 1/4 cup peppermint leaves, 1 bag green tea, 800mg mucuna pruriens (120mg L-Dopa)
*Side Effects:* slight difficulty getting back to sleep. (Ideal)
*Sleep Duration:* 8 hours
*Cognitive*: Low recall. Failed vibration stage twice. Picked up random DILD. Control was excellent. Vividness high. 
*Sexual*: slight sexual overtone after lucid. Disturbing.
*Atmosphere:* Stable and bright.
*Lucid:* Was very short but I was able to pull of the fire TOTM. I may increase caffeine next time.

http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/xanous/burn-46675/

----------


## NyxCC

*Date*: 24 May
*Dose*: pre bed SJW 450 mg, 100 mg B6, WBTB: 2x200mg p.oil capsules
*Side effects*: what is going on?  ::shock:: 
*Sleep duration*: 7 hrs
*Cognitive*: so vivid, we have to come up with another word for vividness, lucid moments on and off, two more decent lucids
*Sexual*: no
*Atmosphere*: hard to describe, a bit of everything, but I think that menthol has managed to neutralize the typical for me B6 aggression, and I got really deep feelings, some happiness, some sadness, a little bit of chase that was not that scary because I became lucid, although continued running
*Other*: I don't know what to say. A fantastic night.  ::smitten::  I think somebody else should take a few days off supps and then try this combo (SJW, B6, peppermint oil) to see if they get something similar. 

Lucid Menthol Night

----------


## CanisLucidus

Congratulations, Nyx, sounds like an amazing night!  I'm trying to remember whether the drug store down the street had SJW.  It sounds like it's pretty commonly available stuff.  Hmmm...  :smiley:

----------


## Xanous

St.  John's wort?

----------


## CanisLucidus

> St.  John's wort?



Yep!  St. John's wort should inhibit the reuptake of serotonin, so it could help dreaming similarly to how 5-HTP (a serotonin precursor) does.  (Note that I wouldn't combine these two, since serotonin overload can be dangerous.)

----------


## NyxCC

Yes, Xanous, you got that right. 

Well, I really think it was the combo. B6 and menthol increased emotions and vividness a lot. Not sure about SJW's contribution because it is the first time I try it. If you try it, be sure to take a good amount of menthol like those capsules are 2x200 mg= 400 mg, I feel it contributed a lot. Tried menthol capsules five nights, and no sexual contents so far, but I found it better in combination with Gingko and SJW than with my 3 mg melatonin, which influences the mood in a slightly different way. 

@ CL. Oh that makes sense then! Good point!  ::D:

----------


## Xanous

That's way cheaper than 5-HTP. I'm on it!

----------


## Ctharlhie

Still been meaning to do the SJW/menthol combo since DutchRaptor had the sexiest dream in history using them.

Yeah SJW is much cheaper than 5-htp. I seem to remember Aly saying a lot of its effects come from it being a glutamate as seratonergic, it looks like complex herb. _definitely_ don't want to mix with 5-htp.

So I meant to the last night, but completely failed to WBTB...

----------


## dutchraptor

> Still been meaning to do the SJW/menthol combo since DutchRaptor had the sexiest dream in history using them.
> 
> Yeah SJW is much cheaper than 5-htp. I seem to remember Aly saying a lot of its effects come from it being a glutamate as seratonergic, it looks like complex herb. _definitely_ don't want to mix with 5-htp.
> 
> So I meant to the last night, but completely failed to WBTB...



Lol  :tongue2:  I recommend it  ::D: 

Btw, if you live near the country side you should be able to just pick it up outside, it grows literally everywhere. I have like three plants growing natively in my garden and I do all kind of stuff with it.

----------


## Ctharlhie

> Lol  I recommend it 
> 
> Btw, if you live near the country side you should be able to just pick it up outside, it grows literally everywhere. I have like three plants growing natively in my garden and I do all kind of stuff with it.



I'll have to root around.

Has anyone had any experience with using passion flower as a supplement?

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* Pre-bed: 5g fish oil;  WBTB: 4 bags peppermint tea, 1000mg L-tyrosine
*Side Effects:* Mild nausea late morning, ~7 hours after ingestion.  Most likely unrelated.  I have some kind of raging stomach bug that caused these symptoms.  Which got much worse.   :tongue2: 
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
*Cognitive:* Recalled a lot of dreams but several of the dreams were short and choppy.  Missed two obvious dreamsigns (deja vu due to repeated dream and changing text.)
*Sexual:* Only mildly.  A couple of crude references.
*Atmosphere:* Large number of dreams with a good mix between action, exploration, weirdness, and semi-magical devices/items.  Dreams had many missing pieces.
*Lucid:* No

I'll have to give this one another try some time, perhaps with a slight bump in L-tyrosine.  A couple of close calls on lucidity that were disappointing to miss in retrospect.  The worst one was when I was reading text on an airplane and noticed that it kept changing (and also contained rather dumb, somewhat sexy content.)  I blamed the whole thing on "turbulence"!   ::roll::

----------


## Ctharlhie

^ If I was going to get started with aminos would you recommend l-tyrosine, is it safer than l-dopa (in the form of mucuna) as it's a precursor further away from dopamine?

----------


## NyxCC

Yeah, dream logic can be stronger than supps. I was looking at some weird veggies tonight, and I told myself this is normal because they were from China.  :tongue2:

----------


## CanisLucidus

> ^ If I was going to get started with aminos would you recommend l-tyrosine, is it safer than l-dopa (in the form of mucuna) as it's a precursor further away from dopamine?



L-tyrosine could be a good place for the cautious to begin, since the rate at which L-tyrosine is converted into L-DOPA will be governed by the tyrosine hydoxylase enzyme that's present in your body.  I can't yet make a sound recommendation as to which is the more effective dream supplement, though.  In the few experiments I've done, mucuna pruriens has on the whole been quite a bit more impressive, but there's still lots of testing to do.  (I space these out a lot, so it takes a while!)

Also, a little update -- the "mild nausea" I mentioned turned into lots of this:  ::barf::   Some kind of stomach bug.  Still working my way through that.  Not too fun, but definitely unrelated to L-tyrosine.   :smiley:

----------


## NyxCC

Well, I hope you get to feel better soon, CL!  :smiley:

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Tue May 28th 2013
*Dose:* (Bed) Oil of Peppermint capsule (x1) = 200 mg. Cough syrup (Mentholated) = 5 ml. Menthodex cough drops (x3) = 0.36% w/w (each.) (WBTB) Oil of Peppermint capsule (x1) = 200 mg. Cough syrup (Mentholated) = 10 ml. Menthodex cough drops (x3) = 0.36 w/w (each.) Total = *See note. (All taken with water.)
*Side Effects:* Gripey stomach
*Sleep Duration:* (5)-5.5 hrs before (WBTB 40 min) 3 hrs approx after. Total = (8)-8.5 hrs
*Cognitive:* Average to good recall. 2 DILD’s recorded, one of which was a very long 1st REM period dream. HI/Hypnagogia above normal levels. Higher awareness. High stability.
*Sexual:* See notes.
*Atmosphere:* Exhibited ‘superpowers.’ Generally I didn’t seem to worry or fear any consequences regarding the outcome(s) 
*Other Comments:* Malleable hypnagogic patterns/colours. Easily slipped in and out of ‘dreams’ whilst half-asleep whilst resting, post-WBTB.
Note: I don’t consider the naked part of my dream as a sexual event, however the erection in the dream that followed probably most definitely is!
(N.B: I held the Quartz crystal in my left hand, post-WBTB as a form of Totem.) 
*Final total unknown due to confusing labelling/amount shown on cough syrup bottle. (Shown as 1 ml of Menthol, with Peppermint Oil shown as a SEPARATE ingredient, inc. Sugars and even ALCOHOL!)

Menthol combo – 2 DILD’s, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Broke my mini-dry spell, now it's time for a Detox!  ::rolleyes::

----------


## Alyzarin

Hey everyone! I'm not back from vacation yet but I have computer access at the moment and I've been checking the thread every now and then on my phone so I wanted to drop in and say something about this one thing really quick. I'll comment on more later, but for now congrats on the progress!





> Has anyone had any experience with using passion flower as a supplement?



If you try this, be very careful. I haven't personally used it, but I know it has been used for vivid dreams. But what you need to watch out for is the fact that passionflower contains multiple MAO inhibitors. That means that if you use a good amount of it it could make for some potentially very dangerous combinations. For one, NEVER use it with anything serotonergic - I see supplement combos sold that have both it and 5-HTP in it and it makes me cringe. Believe me, just don't do it. In fact, you probably should just not really combine it with anything if you try it. If you do, at least bring it like here or somewhere else where someone knowledgeable can tell you that you should be good to go with any given combo, and don't go ahead with it until you've been completely reassured. MAOIs can be dangerous if not given the proper care.

That being said... passionflower does have an interesting blend of chemicals in it. The two I think deserve the most mention are the harmala alkaloids and scopoletin. The harmala alkaloids are the MAOIs in Ayahuasca that orally activate DMT. Not everyone seems to realize it either, but they're actually psychedelic on their own too. They don't just make the DMT work orally, they actually provide a lot of the flavor of the trip. They're also known to create vivid dreams and have a wide range of pharmacological effects in addition to MAO inhibition, such as acetylcholinesterase inhibition, dopamine release, GABA(A) benzodiazepine site inverse agonism, NMDA antagonism, possible serotonin receptor agonism, and so on. But I do feel its worth noting that some of their dream-altering effects probably come from their hallucinogenic effects simply being stacked on top of the dreams, and it's possible that they actually make lucid dreams less likely in the process, I couldn't say for sure. However, scopoletin is much more interesting. It also has weak MAOI properties, but that's not the big part about it. It's an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor and nicotinic acetylcholine receptor agonist, or maybe a positive allosteric modulator, just like galantamine. There have even been scientific studies showing that the two are quite comparable. I'm guessing that if you do get some dream-enhancing effect from passionflower, that's more than likely where at least a lot of it will come from.

Just remember to stay safe though.  :smiley:

----------


## Xanous

*Dose*: Pre-bed: 300mg SJW, 100MG B6; WBTB: 1/4 cup peppermint leaves, 800mg mucuna pruriens, 200MG DMAE
*Side Effects*: Moderate insomnia. Emotional nightmares.
*Sleep Duration*: 7.5 hours
*Cognitive*: Average recall. Vividness average. Physical sensations Vivid.
*Sexual*: passive yet vivid and disturbing.
*Atmosphere*: Normal
*Lucid*: No.

I only recall two dreams. 

In the first one my teeth were falling out in great chunks of enamel while I was at work. Most of the dream was me messing with lose teeth in my mouth completely horrified and shocked at what was happening.

In the second one hardcore porn popped up on my laptop. The webpage title read "The Bible Says Sex Is Bad!" I was trying to make sense of it and I believe I was on the verge of getting lucid but I realized both my daughters were on either side of me. The begin to freak out but my dad gets in my face yelling and preaching to me like some crazy mad man. I tried to explain that none of this was my fault but he would not let me talk. I became angry and told him that if he doesn't shut up I was going to break his glasses. He wouldn't so I did. I noticed how odd it was that the glass bent like plastic but I felt so horrified at my rage that I didn't give it much thought. He was devastated that I reached violently towards him and started crying. I looked over at my mom who was staring at me with disdain. 

The negative emotions in both dreams were intense and disturbing. I'm not sure I like this combo!

----------


## NyxCC

Sorry you had such a bad night.  :Sad:  I sometimes get similar types of dreams just by taking B6, no idea why is that. I was planning on repeating the combo SJW-B6-menthol, but since I know how sensitive I am, and after reading your entry I got worried about getting nightmares.  ::shock::  Now, I am thinking of switching B6 for multivitamins with lower B6 dosage?

I also wonder if the situation could have been turned around if you did manage to get lucid.  :Thinking: 





> Another female DC comes in and starts behaving aggressively. She demands all the attention, looks me in the eye with hatred and begins complaining to one of the women in the room. I have the feeling that they will start a fight with each other, so get out of there fast...I find myself on the stairs of a building with lots of aggressive gangster type boys. One is particularly evil, feels dangerous. I become lucid on a distracted level, realizing this is a dream, but unable to do anything about the guy. I am trying to move away but it is really crowded on the stairs, I think somebody pushed me, and I end up in a niche on the wall. The wall is not really wall but something liquid that sucks me in. As I move forward in this thing, I achieve a better clarity of mind and am fully lucid and in control.There is a single task that I feel the urge to do now, go to Angel Falls...



Valerian and B6 entry The lotus pond

----------


## Xanous

> Sorry you had such a bad night.  I sometimes get similar types of dreams just by taking B6, no idea why is that. I was planning on repeating the combo SJW-B6-menthol, but since I know how sensitive I am, and after reading your entry I got worried about getting nightmares.  Now, I am thinking of switching B6 for multivitamins with lower B6 dosage?
> 
> I also wonder if the situation could have been turned around if you did manage to get lucid. 
> 
> 
> 
> Valerian and B6 entry The lotus pond



That's not typical for me with B6. Perhaps it's something with this particular combo or maybe it was just one of those nights? I totally would have turned this around if I had got lucid. I usually handle lucid nightmares pretty well and can almost always take charge of DC's and tame the situation. I did throw in some extras with L-Dopa and DMAE. I suspect higher dopamine levels could have played a role here as well. Maybe next time I will leave those two out.

----------


## NyxCC

@ Xanous. Hmmm, I guess I am just very sensitive to B6 (like you once said) and perhaps other supps?  :Thinking: 

*Date*: 31 May
*Dose*: pre bed 2 drops p.oil, strong multivits (included 60 mg gingko, and 50 mg ginseng), SJW, WBTB 1 p.oil capsule (200mg)
*Side Effects*: heavy insomnia, slightly faster heart rate (was also dehydrated unrelated to supps?)  :Insomnia: 
*Duration*: about 9 hrs (2.5 hrs total insomnia, 6.5 sleep)
*Cognitive*: wakefulness, vivid dreams, good dream control
*Sexual*: no
*Atmosphere*: normal city during night, high awareness interaction with a bold energetic entity, enhanced spacial perception, mostly normal mood with slight touches of lucid satisfaction, but more action oriented
*Lucid*: WILD + 2 DILDs in the very early stages of sleep
*Other*: After our discussion yesterday, decided to use multivits instead of 100 mg B6, but I got too much energy before bed time, and my heart rate was faster, which made it hard to fall asleep. I guess I unconsciously used it as an anchor and ended up with a WILD, which was the longest lasting no prior sleep ld that I can remember. Then got two DILDs, followed by insomnia, then unmemorable sleep. While I find it cool to have 3 lds so early on, I wouldn't take these multivitamins with this combo again, because of the insomnia. Another thing I did differently this time was to take two drops of p.oil pre bed, so I guess this also played a role.

Midnight lucidity

*Possible future combos*: pre bed: SJW, menthol, WBTB: menthol or pre bed: SJW, WBTB: menthol, lecithin/ B complex (a smaller %), may substitute SJW for Gingko

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Tue June 4th 2013
*Dose:* (Bed) Oil of Peppermint capsule (x1) = 200 mg. Cough syrup (Mentholated) = 15 ml. 
*Side Effects:* Ok
*Sleep Duration:* Total = 9.75 - 10.25 hrs
*Cognitive:* Average recall. Odd bit of HI/dreamlet. Interesting NLD with slight awareness at one point noted.
*Atmosphere:* A floating theme. It felt good, along with an ‘energy/feeling.’
*Other Comments:* No supplements taken post-toilet break due to missing the earlier WBTB time. Therefore no ‘proper’ WBTB was taken.
I don’t recall/remember really anything from the first half of the night (when the Menthol would have been at peak plasma, etc.) as I slept through.
(N.B: Crystal totem was in my pyjama pocket.)

Pants - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

My dream recall is a bit pants - lol.  ::?:

----------


## Ctharlhie

*Date:*
*Dose:*(Bedtime) 3g fish oil, (WBTB) 400mg peppermint oil
*Side-effects:* light sleep, anxiety, slightly delirious
*Cognitive:*Aforementioned delirium, anxiety dreams
*Atmosphere:* Uneasiness, colourful dream characters, tigers and panthers
*Other comments:*More or less complete failure, the menthol seemed to land me in a paralytic state of swinging between not-quite-complete wakefulness and troubled dreams, slept through two further WBTB alarms. To anyone using peppermint oil capsules, if you want to take a higher dose spread it out between bedtime and WBTB like Highlander does as that seems to alleviate side-effects.

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* Pre-bed: 100mg B6;  WBTB: 4 bags peppermint tea, 800mg mucuna pruriens
*Side Effects:* Mild insomnia.  Ultra-focused and productive this morning at work.  Really in the zone!   ::goodjob2:: 
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
*Cognitive:* Some dream choppiness.  Missed some obvious dreamsigns (magical powers, weird stuff happening on DV, etc.)
*Sexual:* Not at all.
*Atmosphere:* Mostly happy and adventurous.  Dreams had many missing pieces, though.
*Lucid:* No

Nice dreams this morning, although I was sad not to have become lucid.  Menthol and mucuna seem to help create good dreams but as far as I can tell, they're not making my dreaming brain any smarter / clued in.   ::D:   That part's still completely up to me.

One dream was extremely positive.  I found a dead frog, brought him back to life, and named him "Mr. Froggo" before releasing him back into the great outdoors.   ::chuckle::   As silly as this dream plot is, I felt incredible joy by the end of it!   ::content::

----------


## NyxCC

@ Ctharlhie - definitely not a failure, those are menthol dream signs. Not sure about the mood of the dream, but one could potentially learn to recognize those colorful entities/DCs, especially when dreams are vivid. I have been trying to get lucid when encountering animals, but I am usually so fascinated I always end up simply watching/interacting with them. Tigers and panthers ::hug:: 

@ CL; good to hear that these supps have positive spillover effects in waking life too. It seems like a good combination of supps. And I totally adore the "Mr.Froggo dream".  ::smitten::

----------


## NyxCC

*Date*: 7 May
*Dose*: pre bed SJW, 100mg B6 WBTB: 2x200 mg p.oil capsule
*Side effects*: none
*Duration*: 9 hours (5+1 wbtb on/off sleep +3)
*Cognitive*: dreams were vivid, paid attention to a fascinating piano performance
*Sexual*: yes
*Atmosphere*: normal with some sexy elements
*Lucid*: yes, short DILD 
*Other*: If I am not mistaken this is the sixth time I use menthol, and the second this combo. For menthol - first time having sexy dreams, classmate kissing me, two dreams with hookers and sexy time with bf. Apart for the distractions, I started with a brief DILD post WBTB. I was interrupted after my WBTB practice so in the end I spent more time trying to fall asleep than thinking about lucidity. Today, I did not get the ultra positive mood I usually associate with menthol, mood was just normal. SJW plus menthol combo has coincided with a lucid 3/3 times so far, but today my awareness was not as high. I hope I am not becoming desensitized (only once a week?)  ::huh2:: 

Too much indecisiveness

----------


## Ctharlhie

*Date:* 8th June
*Dose:* 3g fish oil, 200mg peppermint oil
*Side effects:* none
*Sleep duration:* 9hrs
*Cognitive:* illogical dreams
*Sexual:* Kinda, more romantic
*Atmosphere:* Anxiety, romance, threat, fantasy
*Lucid:* Brief semi-lucid on the cusp of lucid proper

Slept through my WBTB alarm, I was gonna take loads of valerian  :Sad:

----------


## Xanous

> *Date*: 7 May
> *Dose*: pre bed SJW, 100mg B6 WBTB: 2x200 mg p.oil capsule
> *Side effects*: none
> *Duration*: 9 hours (5+1 wbtb on/off sleep +3)
> *Cognitive*: dreams were vivid, paid attention to a fascinating piano performance
> *Sexual*: yes
> *Atmosphere*: normal with some sexy elements
> *Lucid*: yes, short DILD 
> *Other*: If I am not mistaken this is the sixth time I use menthol, and the second this combo. For menthol - first time having sexy dreams, classmate kissing me, two dreams with hookers and sexy time with bf. Apart for the distractions, I started with a brief DILD post WBTB. I was interrupted after my WBTB practice so in the end I spent more time trying to fall asleep than thinking about lucidity. Today, I did not get the ultra positive mood I usually associate with menthol, mood was just normal. SJW plus menthol combo has coincided with a lucid 3/3 times so far, but today my awareness was not as high. I hope I am not becoming desensitized (only once a week?) 
> ...



That SJW is great stuff. I've gotten lucid from taking it prebed nothing else WBTB. I notice when I missed a WBTB and just did a quick induction during a brief awakening. If I don't get lucid I notice a huge boost in REM rebound. For me it seems waaaay more effective than 5-HTP!

----------


## Ctharlhie

> That SJW is great stuff. I've gotten lucid from taking it prebed nothing else WBTB. I notice when I missed a WBTB and just did a quick induction during a brief awakening. If I don't get lucid I notice a huge boost in REM rebound. For me it seems waaaay more effective than 5-HTP!



I think Aly mentioned at one point that SJW is also a glutamate. May account for its increased effectiveness.

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Sat June 8th 2013
*Dose:* (Bed) Honey and Lemon Menthol cough drops (x5) = 48.5 mg  (WBTB) A cereal breakfast with milk. A cup of tea (0.5 pt)
*Side Effects:* Generally ok.
*Sleep Duration:* 5.75 hrs approx before (WBTB 40 min) 3 hrs after. Total = 8.75 hrs
*Cognitive:* Excellent recall (post-WBTB.) A highly stable, quite vivid DILD which was quite long and exceptionally late in the morning (by my standards) was noted. Memorable.
*Sexual:* No.
*Atmosphere:* Set at night where it was a bit dark. Family themes. (See notes also.)
*Other Comments:* There may be other variables which could have influenced things, namely:
(i) L-Arginine (1 g) taken yesterday, quite early in the evening. 
(ii) Consumption of (x3) Chocolate coated digestive biscuits about ¾ hr before bed.
(iii) Extra tiredness  I dont need to mention why! (Ho hum)
(iv) The breakfast  as in the vitamins, plus the Caffeine in the tea.

The dialogue content of the DILD has made me think somewhat, even to the point where I have felt like giving up?  ::whyme::  

Imposter (DILD) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Mon June 10th 2013
*Dose:* (Bed) Oil of Peppermint capsule (x1) = 200 mg, Teaspoon (x3) Mentholated cough syrup (15 ml), H and L Menthol cough drops (x2) = 19.4 mg  (WBTB) L-Arginine (x1) = 500 mg, H and L Menthol cough drops (x3) = 29.1 mg  
*Side Effects:* Insomnia (post-WBTB)
*Sleep Duration:* 5 hrs approx before (WBTB 40 min) 3.75 hrs approx after. Total = 8.75 hrs
*Cognitive:* Very good recall (post-WBTB.) High awareness coupled split-second lucidity in main dream noted.
*Sexual:* Yes – scenes of nudity
*Atmosphere:* Realistic and vivid. Danger situation.
*Other Comments:* Above normal HI/thoughts and general dreamlets late on in the morning. Ex work colleagues, etc. featured as a common theme. Dreamsign recorded. RC checks failed.
It was generally a warm night which may have exacerbated the post-WBTB insomnia. Totem (LH.)

Menthol and L-Arginine - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* Pre-bed: 3mg melatonin;  WBTB: 4 bags peppermint tea
*Side Effects:* None.
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
*Cognitive:* Slightly dumb and self-conscious in NLDs.  Brain worked okay in lucid portions.  Prospective memory only so-so.  (Couldn't remember more than my primary goal.)
*Sexual:* For the most part, no.  Did appear in just my boxers in one NLD.   ::whyme:: 
*Atmosphere:* Confused and self-conscious in NLDs.  Vaguely worried about trivial matters, but not excessively.  Carefree in lucid portion.
*Lucid:* Yes!

Apart from showing up pantsless at the beginning of one dream, last night's dreams didn't seem exceedingly menthol-y.   :tongue2:   Reasonably imaginative, but not off the charts like some dreams have been in the past.  Got lucid, didn't get insomnia, so all in all thumbs up!   ::goodjob2:: 

The lucid dream:
Morgan Freeman - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

I'm glad to see all of these recent successes you guys are posting!  Great stuff.

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* Pre-bed: 100mg 5-htp;  WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, 400mg choline citrate, B5), 600mg Alpha-GPC, 3 bags peppermint tea, 1 bag green tea
*Side Effects:* Mild insomnia followed by a crapton of lucid dreaming.
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
*Cognitive:* Fairly sharp and confident.  Became lucid very, very easily.
*Sexual:* Yes
*Atmosphere:* Generally adventurous and sexy
*Lucid:* Yes!!  *(5 lucid dreams!)*  ::happy:: 

Really amazing night here.  This was by far the most lucid dreams I've ever experienced in a single night.  This particular combo seems to be dynamite for me!  This is a lot like the one that's worked so well for me in the past but with just a little more Alpha-GPC.

This level of menthol seems to lead to a nice increase in dream content and makes dreams "sexier" without that taking over absolutely everything.  And when you pair that increase in dreaming with the increased likelihood of lucidity that comes with the galantamine + choline stacked with caffeine, it really seems to work well.

This was awesome, to say the least!

The lucids:
http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/cani...-locker-47555/
http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/cani...-sequel-47557/
http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/cani...torrent-47562/
http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/cani...metroid-47563/
http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/cani...stitute-47564/

----------


## Highlander

Hi Canis Lucidus,

It does sound a rather epic night after reading your reports. I'm presuming that the LD's are all post-WBTB rather than any being pre, due to the actions of 5-HTP.
Can you remember how many hours into sleep that you took the WBTB? (I'm assuming about 4-5 hours in?)

Whatever, it must have been quite memorable!  :tongue2:

----------


## CanisLucidus

> Hi Canis Lucidus,
> 
> It does sound a rather epic night after reading your reports. I'm presuming that the LD's are all post-WBTB rather than any being pre, due to the actions of 5-HTP.
> Can you remember how many hours into sleep that you took the WBTB? (I'm assuming about 4-5 hours in?)
> 
> Whatever, it must have been quite memorable!



Thanks, Highlander, and yes, you're exactly right.  I woke up at around 3 AM, so after not quite 4 hours of sleep.  (Hmm, less sleep than I'd imagined.)  My WBTBs are natural so I don't get to schedule them too precisely.

When I woke up for WBTB, I recalled no dreams.  I took the supplements immediately and laid back down after about 30 minutes of being awake.  I was a bit buzzed and excited so I wasn't sure I'd get back to sleep very easily.  Did my SSILD cycles, then rolled onto my side and began the WILD attempt.

----------


## Highlander

Thanks CL.

I did just notice your actual WBTB timing in the Caffeine thread, but you replied before I could edit it.  :tongue2: 

After the positive results you guys are reporting in there I'm a bit tempted to try some form of Caffeine myself.  :wink2:

----------


## CanisLucidus

> Thanks CL.
> 
> I did just notice your actual WBTB timing in the Caffeine thread, but you replied before I could edit it. 
> 
> After the positive results you guys are reporting in there I'm a bit tempted to try some form of Caffeine myself.



Yeah the Menthol and Caffeine threads have sort of become sister research projects.   :smiley:   I've had my best luck with the lower doses of caffeine but NyxCC seems to work wonders with frappuccinos and drinks with enough caffeine that they have warnings on the label.   ::chuckle::

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Wed June 19th 2013
*Dose:* (WBTB) Peppermint tea (x1 bag) infused in 0.5 pt of warm water, duration over 5+ minutes
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* < 6 hrs approx before (WBTB 20 min) < 3 hrs approx after. Total = 8.75 - 9 hrs
*Cognitive:*  Average to good recall. Above average vividness in general. 
*Sexual:* See notes 
*Atmosphere:* Mixture of work and general themes, etc.
*Other Comments:* Basic SSI(LD) exercise performed post-WBTB. Slight awareness/dream theme noted. Virtually naked in one scene. (NLD)

Work. Hotel rooms. Dream references, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## NyxCC

I postponed doing my fav menthol SJW combo as things were really distracting at home. I just couldnt wait anymore so decided it was time to try again on the 17th. This time instead of B6, added my treasured latte. Dreams were vivid but missed to become lucid.

*Date*: 17 June
*Dose*: pre bed SJW, WBTB 2x200mg p.oil capsules, ½ latte 
*Side Effects*: none
*Sleep Duration*: 9 hrs
*Cognitive*: dreams were vivid, one was especially long (or resumed after micro-wake)
*Sexual*: not really
*Atmosphere*: normal, but my tiredness translated into me thinking I was drunk during the dream?
*Other Comments*: I am slightly disappointed that I did not become lucid with this nice combo. I was quite sleepy and couldnt become alert enough. 

Apart for that the combo did a good job of enhancing dream quality and vividness. I met an old friend during the dream, he behaved and looked so real, I couldnt tell the difference from rl. Mood was towards the positive although the overwhelming effects of previous trials with menthol were not as strong. 

16-19 June Summary

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Sat June 22nd 2013
*Dose:* (Bed) Menthodex cough drops (x4) = Menthol @ 0.36% w/w  (WBTB) Menthodex cough drops (x3) = Menthol @ 0.36% w/w. Vitamin B6 (x1) = 10 mg
*Side Effects:* Slight gripey stomach  (post-WBTB)
*Sleep Duration:* <6 hrs approx before (WBTB = 33 min) <4 hrs approx after. Total = 9.5 - 10 hrs approx
*Cognitive:* Above average recall with little erasure. Good awareness.
*Sexual:* No. 
*Atmosphere:* Realistic and vivid. Other senses noted. Anxiety pre-WBTB in one dream.
*Other Comments:* Quite a morning’s worth of dreams recorded which included a transition-type dream and a long memorable lucid dream.
I did have pre-anxiety (IWL) issues from the day beforehand, etc.
Totem (LH.) SSILD cycle(s) during post-WBTB.

Menthol  Vibrations and a long DILD - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

(N.B: I did edit the pre-WBTB anxiety dream from the above entry.)

----------


## CanisLucidus

Note: This is from morning of 6/20/2013

*Dose:* Pre-bed: 100mg 5-htp;  WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, 400mg choline citrate, B5), 600mg Alpha-GPC, 3 bags peppermint tea, 1 bag green tea
*Side Effects:* Mild insomnia.
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
*Cognitive:* Reasonably sharp.  Very vain.
*Sexual:* Sexual hypnagogia but no sexual dream content.
*Atmosphere:* Mildly adventurous.  Self-conscious.
*Lucid:* Yes!  One lucid dream and one micro-lucid.

The lucid dream:
Vanity at The Doppelganger Water Park - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

There was also an adventure-themed micro-lucid.  (I had a sword and everything!)

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Tue June 25th 2013
*Dose:* (Bed) 0.5 pt Apple Juice; (WBTB) L-Arginine (x2) = 1000 mg, Menthodex cough drops (x2) = 0.36 % w/w
*Side Effects:* ERECTION
*Sleep Duration:* 5.75 hrs before (WBTB 38 min) 3.25 hrs approx after. Total = 9.00 hrs approx
*Cognitive:* Very good recall and awareness. Very good stability and overall clarity in main DILD especially.
*Sexual:* Taboo subjects  :Oops: 
*Atmosphere:* Family theme. The need to convey a message/shared dreaming type test.
*Other Comments:* Occasional dreamlets/hypnagogia noted late morning whilst resting.
SSILD cycles performed post-WBTB. Memorable.

My Family, etc - DILD - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## dutchraptor

The peppermint pills just aren't cutting it for me. Theoretically they should do much better but in practicality they seem to make a negligible difference to my dreams. Sometimes drinking even one cup could sned me down a wacky or sexual dream, unlike the pills which seem to produce more normal dreams than crazy cool ones  :Sad: 

I still have like 35 left though so I might try take three tonight, and see what happens.

----------


## Alyzarin

> *Sexual:* Taboo subjects 
> *Atmosphere:* Family theme.



 ::wtf2:: 

I will be reading this entry shortly lol.





> The peppermint pills just aren't cutting it for me. Theoretically they should do much better but in practicality they seem to make a negligible difference to my dreams. Sometimes drinking even one cup could sned me down a wacky or sexual dream, unlike the pills which seem to produce more normal dreams than crazy cool ones 
> 
> I still have like 35 left though so I might try take three tonight, and see what happens.



Well, when it comes to the pills vs the peppermint tea it may be worth considering that there's a... I guess a good example would be a cannabis-like situation going on. By that I mean, a combination of chemical effects. Menthol does seem to have some unique effects, but it could be that those effects are brought out much better when combined with other supplements in the mix, including those naturally found in peppermint tea. The comparison with cannabis centers around THC. THC by itself is usually rated as underwhelming, often anxious or panicky, and not really a drug you would just use. However, when mixed with the vast number of other cannabinoids in the plant, as well as things like terpenes and terpenoids in the trichomes, its effects are subtly altered and enhanced to create the glowing, euphoric, psychedelic, and versatile high that weed smokers are familiar with. Similarly, it could be, for instance, that menthol increases dopamine release in the brain in a way that causes sexual stimulation but that in some people it may not be enough to be incredibly noticeable until it's combined with things like the B vitamins in the tea which allow for more efficient dopamine production, and therefore a stronger effect in this particular area.

I don't know how that would explain why the cough drops can work for people though.  ::wtf::  Unless it did just differ that much from person to person.

----------


## dutchraptor

I was thinking that myself, I remember you had already told me something similar earlier.
I think I will actually try both at the same time. If I both have the peppermint tea and the capsules I might be able to get some strong effects out of it. 
I'll report in tomorrow to say how it went.

----------


## Alyzarin

> I was thinking that myself, I remember you had already told me something similar earlier.
> I think I will actually try both at the same time. If I both have the peppermint tea and the capsules I might be able to get some strong effects out of it. 
> I'll report in tomorrow to say how it went.



That's an idea.  ::huh::  I look forward to seeing your results, then!

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Wed June 26th 2013
*Dose:* (WBTB) Banana (x1) along with 1 cup (0.5 pt) of Peppermint tea – (warm water steeped with 1 bag for 5 min)
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* >6 hrs approx before (WBTB 25 min) >3 hrs approx after. Total = 9.00 hrs approx
*Cognitive:* Average to reasonable recall.  Slight awareness/semi-lucidity near the end of main dream.
*Sexual:* No, although I did use profanity!
*Atmosphere:* Confrontational/driving theme(s)
*Other Comments:* SSILD cycles performed post-WBTB. Crystal totem held in right hand post-WBTB.

Road rage, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## dutchraptor

*Date:* Wed June 26th 2013
*Dose:* WBTB I cup of peppermint tea, 400mg of peppermint oil
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* around 9 hours. WBTB 2 hours into sleep
*Cognitive:* Average, good recall and mostly vivid dreams. Huge lack of any logical thought though.
*Sexual:* A bit for about 10 minutes of dream. Very sexual references which amounted to nothing and never appeared again for every following dream.
*Atmosphere:* Slightly less normal than most dreams. A bit urgent but not stressful or annoying.
*Other Comments:* Nothing particularly noticeable from other dreams I've had. I don't count this as a success. I will try ingest a higher dose of tea today.

----------


## NyxCC

*Date*: 25 June
*Dose*: Pre bed: SJW, 2 drops p.oil, WBTB 1 capsule 200mg p.oil, some latte (around 60 mg caffeine)
*Side Effects*: None
*Sleep Duration*: 8 hrs
*Cognitive*: vivid dreams non-ld & ld. Ld somewhat unstable but I guess because it started from scratch.
*Sexual*: No (with the exception of having a brief sexy thought after creatively going for TOTM at the very end)
*Atmosphere*: non-lds about classmates, I liked the atmosphere, ld on top of building/store/station. 
*Other Comments*: My favourite combo so far, but without B6, that I guess I should have added to increase awareness. This time the combo + caffeine yielded a lucid at the very end of sleep (3 hrs post WBTB)

Obsessed with TOTM

----------


## Oster

So i haven't really been fallowing this thread but i thought it would be kinda interesting to try and it does look like it is working so my question is since i dont want to read all the 34 pages. How are you taking this cough drop etc?

----------


## Xanous

> So i haven't really been fallowing this thread but i thought it would be kinda interesting to try and it does look like it is working so my question is since i dont want to read all the 34 pages. How are you taking this cough drop etc?



I think enemas have been the most effective so far.

No wait wrong thread sorry. I think all I've seen and or tired so far is peppermint tea, cough drops, peppermint oil, and I think someone said something about a York peppermint patty a while back. Did I miss anything?

----------


## Highlander

Some of the guys (me included) also have combined Menthol (as you say either in the form of an ingested cough drop, a Peppermint tea infusion, or a Peppermint Oil capsule, etc.) with one of their favourite other supplements, either at bedtime or usually in my case WBTB, or indeed both.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> So i haven't really been fallowing this thread but i thought it would be kinda interesting to try and it does look like it is working so my question is since i dont want to read all the 34 pages. How are you taking this cough drop etc?



I've used cough drops in the past but generally focus on peppermint tea these days.  (This is me, though -- lots of people do great with cough drops/oil/caps,etc.)  I personally like to drink the tea at WBTB.  I make it before bed then it's room temperature by WBTB time.

This probably makes me seem like a weenie, but I drink the tea through a straw in order to alleviate any possible teeth-staining effects.   ::bigteeth:: 





> Some of the guys (me included) also have combined Menthol (as you say either in the form of an ingested cough drop, a Peppermint tea infusion, or a Peppermint Oil capsule, etc.) with one of their favourite other supplements, either at bedtime or usually in my case WBTB, or indeed both.



That's right!  Cholinergic supplements seem to be particularly effective since the mechanism of action is so different.  Menthol does a lot for dream quality/quantity while the cholinergics make lucidity more likely.

Having said that, I always recommend trying any dream aid by itself first to assess its effects.  Always start with low doses and keep careful records.  It's the safest, most effective way because it allows you to be able to look back and remember what worked for you and what didn't.

If you do think about striking out on your own with some new, untested combo, it may be a good idea to run it by the folks in this thread so that we can point out any contraindications.  Menthol has interesting, slightly exotic mechanisms of action so it's good to build your combos with care and always with conservative doses.

----------


## Highlander

> This probably makes me seem like a weenie, but I drink the tea through a straw in order to alleviate any possible teeth-staining effects.



To the contrary really, a useful tip seeing a trip to your dentist costs money in these day's of austerity.  ::goodjob2:: 
Another thing is (and I don't wish to repeat myself too often) that if your taking cough drops on a _regular_ basis then CLEAN YOUR TEETH immediately afterwards! 
There is a lot of sugar per cough drop which is often overlooked.  ::bigteeth:: 

The other thing to add following on from Canis's wise post regarding combo's is that I forgot to mention you can use your favourite technique too; whether it is MILD, WILD, DEILD, etc.

Currently I'm trying SSI(LD) during WBTB.  :smiley:

----------


## dutchraptor

> This probably makes me seem like a weenie, but I drink the tea through a straw in order to alleviate any possible teeth-staining effects.



Definitely not, I drink like 5 cups of tea per day excluding the peppermint tea and it's really bad. I think I might actually resort to using a straw now  :tongue2:

----------


## works

New to the forum and LD as a whole but I thought I could take a shot at this.

*Date:* Fri June 28th 2013
*Dose:* Four 7mg Cough drops (28mg totall)
*Side Effects:* Slight insomnia and chest pain.
*Sleep Duration:* 12 Hours
*Cognitive:* Average recall and vividness
*Sexual:* No
*Atmosphere:* Violent and angry.
*Other Comments:* It was two different dreams. The first was very jumpy and hard to follow or understand what I was doing but the second was normally vivid and very violent.

----------


## Ctharlhie

*Date:* 28th June
*Dose:* 3g fish oil, 400mg peppermint oil, 644mg valerian root extract
*side-effects:* none
*sleep-duration:* 8 hrs
*lucid:* yes
*Cognitive* no noticeable effect
*Sexual:* extremely
*Atmosphere:* fantasy elements
*Other comments:* last night saw me break a dry spell of more than a week, also notable for being possibly the most vividly sexual dream of my life. 

I'm happy to prove that lucidity is possible under the influence of valerian :p I love the fantasy overtones it gives my dreams.

----------


## Xanous

*Date*: Sat June 29th 2013 5AM
*Dose*: Ten 9.1mg Cough drops, 120mg Mucuna Pruriens, 100mg B6 (also had vodka prebed)
*Side Effects*: Sour stomach
*Sleep Duration*: 7.5 Hours
*Cognitive*: Very vivid, good recall
*Sexual*: Not at all
*Atmosphere*: Shifty and rushed
*Other Comments*: I was really glad to get lucid on this one. I've been going back to basics and really hammering hard on prospective memory and MILD. Though I was trying to have a lucid dream, I took this combo solely for dream enhancement and not as a LDS. That seems to be a better attitude for me lately  ::D: 

The Disappointing Theme Park - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## NyxCC

*Date*: 02 July
*Dose*: pre bed SJW, 100mg B6, WBTB 200mg p.oil capsule, some latte (60mg caffeine)
*Side Effects*: too sleepy from SJW
*Sleep Duration*: 8 hrs
*Cognitive*: sleepy and confused
*Sexual*: no
*Atmosphere*: classmates/school, had to hurry, positive moments, nonsense
*Other Comments*: My favourite combo has been less effective for LDs (although I did get some ld moments) and more effective for making me have a good night’s sleep. I am partially to blame because I didn’t do a proper WBTB and feel like I have wasted some good supps. Next time will switch SJW for Gingko. 

Sleepy

----------


## Alyzarin

*Thread Update!!*

(Well just sort of, but so what, it's my thread lol.)

Alright everyone, this is it. I'm officially leaving DV. I don't know when I'll be back, but it probably won't be for a long time. I'm pretty much dropping the internet as a whole, along with many other things, to focus on living my life the right way.

But before I go, I just wanted to say how awesome everyone in this thread has been ever since the very beginning. I started this thread exactly a year ago to the day, and it's gone so much further than I ever could have imagined. And it never could have been possible without everyone here who contributed, all of whom have put so much more on the field work into menthol use than I ever have. Seriously, you guys rock. I hope you all keep finding better and better supplements and combinations and pushing deeper and deeper into your lucid dreaming abilities so that you can achieve all of your goals because you deserve it.

Even with my coming absence, I would like to reiterate what CanisLucidus said on the last page. Whatever you do, stay cautious with your supplements, and if you have any questions about menthol, mixing something with menthol, or heck, just about any supplements in general, bring it here where others will be able to help guide you in the right direction, tell you if something is a safe idea, and so on. Whenever I'm not around I always worry that someone may come here with questions that I'll wish I could have answered sooner, particular if they pertain to the safety of different supplements and combos, so I've taken an extra step before I go. I have talked to Canis, who has an amazing amount of menthol experience and shares my passion for understanding the brain, about my leaving and he has graciously agreed to keep an extra eye out for anyone who posts here requesting supplement help, so seriously do not hesitate to ask if you need anything!! I'm essentially handing over the thread to him, and I assure you that you will be left in good hands.  :smiley: 

Once again, you guys seriously rule. I may have started the idea to use menthol here but it's grown much beyond that, it's not just my experiment but all of ours and I don't think it could have possibly gone better than it has. To everyone here who has participated, I give me utmost gratitude. Just spearheading this thread alone has been an incredible experience for me, and I have all of you to thank.

 :Hug it out: 

Maybe one day we'll see menthol popping up on all of the big lucid dreaming sites. But until then, good luck to everyone and all future experimenters in all of your mentholy nights to come!!  ::biggrin:: 

I'm posting a little bit more formal of a goodbye in the thread for it along with how to contact me, so in case anyone wants to know check it out here: http://www.dreamviews.com/lounge/718...ml#post2032262

Good luck with any potential questions Canis, I know you'll do great.  ::goodjob2::

----------


## Xanous

I'm going to miss you. You are an incredibly brilliant researcher and amazing lucid dreamer. I wish you well and success in all you do.

----------


## CanisLucidus

Aly, thank you for everything -- all of your amazing work on the menthol thread, your incredible neurochemistry knowledge, your advice, and your friendship.  It was just over a year ago that you started this thread.  What an amazing amount has happened over this past year.

It's a huge understatement to call this research project a success.  It's a huge accomplishment.  The only person you still owe anything to is yourself.  Now get out there and live the best life you possibly can!  Considering how much you've helped all of us, I don't think we'll begrudge you building the life that you want and deserve for yourself.   :smiley: 

Make the most of this new perspective and all of this positive momentum in your life.  You've got _great_ things ahead of you.  Now go get them.   ::content:: 

Speaking of great lucid dreams I need to thank Alyzarin for, it seems appropriate that this morning I had one more:

*Dose:* Pre-bed: 100mg 5-htp;  WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, 400mg choline citrate, B5), 600mg Alpha-GPC, 3 bags peppermint tea, 1 bag green tea
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
*Cognitive:* Lucidity didn't come easily.  Lots of dreaming, though.
*Sexual:* Barely, and only in one spot
*Atmosphere:* Adventurous
*Lucid:* Yes

As usual with this combo, I had some very long, fun, meandering dreams.

Menthol didn't sex things up too much, at least not with this dose.  I guess there was one part where a buddy and I were hanging out on a beach and everyone walking by was attractive and female.  This is always amusing -- I've only had this particular Girls Everywhere! effect happen with menthol.  I really need to make sure that I recognize it as a dreamsign.

Overall, the 3 bags of peppermint tea seems to be a nice sweet spot.  I get good dream enhancement effects at this level and the "sexy sexy" stuff is pretty minimal.  (Not that this isn't great fun, too, but can really distract from other goals.)

The lucid dream:
Woodrow the Giant - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## NyxCC

Thanks a lot for everything Aly! You have no idea how many people and dreams you have inspired with your research. Have a fantastic time following your goals and dreams. Take care!   :smiley:

----------


## Highlander

Take care Aly, wishing you all the best!
Many thanks for your hard work, help and advice.  ::bowdown:: 
I sincerely hope things work out for you, both now and in the future.  ::hug::

----------


## works

Wish I could have joined DV and followed the thread sooner. I didn't know you all to well but this whole thing looks extremely successful and I'll keep going on with trying menthol! Good luck with what you want to do and have fun!  :;-):

----------


## works

*Date*: Sun July 7th 2013
*Dose*: 14 mg (2 cough drops)
*Side Effects*: None
*Sleep Duration*: 10 hours
*Cognitive*: Not Vivid
*Sexual*: No
*Atmosphere*: Dark
*Other Comments*: I vaguely remember being with a few people and seeing a lightning storm off in the distance. It was just constant lightning hitting the ground every second but that's all. I think it also didn't have much of an effect because I didn't go to sleep until about an hour after I took the cough drops.

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* Pre-bed: 100mg 5-htp, 500mg B5;  WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, 400mg choline citrate, B5), 600mg Alpha-GPC, 200mg L-theanine, 3 bags peppermint tea, 1 bag green tea
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
*Cognitive:* Lucidity didn't come easily.  Lots of dreaming, though.
*Sexual:* Yes, but controlled
*Atmosphere:* Adventurous, slightly sexy
*Lucid:* Yes!  (Two DILDs (?) + 1 DEILD)

Very successful night!  Plenty of lucidity and jam-packed with dreaming in general (the latter part pretty typical for menthol.)  Hit my WBTB a little later, which was probably a help.

I had a moment of pretty strong "menthol" style sexy effects -- I got really distracted by a cute reporter and had a hard time getting refocused on my lucid goals.  I ended up having to flee into the void to escape my own runaway crush.   ::lol:: 

Even so, I'm interested in experimenting at some point with a few more bags of peppermint tea _or_ throwing in a very small amount of peppermint oil alongside the tea.  (Obviously, I'll be sure to keep total menthol well under control.)

The lucids:
Sandwiches for Skeptics - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Dive Bomber in Darkness - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Wed July 10th 2013
*Dose:* (Bed) Oil of Peppermint capsule (x1) = 200mg, Menthodex cough drops (x2) = Menthol @ 0.36% w/w.  (WBTB) Menthodex cough drops (x3) = Menthol @ 0.36% w/w, L-Arginine (x2) = 1000 mg
*Side Effects:* Slight gripey stomach  (post-WBTB)
*Sleep Duration:* <6 hrs approx before (WBTB = 44 min) <2.5 hrs approx after. Total = 8 – 8.5 hrs approx
*Cognitive:* Very good recall. Good to excellent awareness.
*Sexual:* No. 
*Atmosphere:* High stability. Fairly vivid. Odd and fairly bizarre themes.
*Other Comments:* A good amount of dreams recorded which included a 'void'-type (lucid) dream and a fairly memorable DILD. Unable to carry out certain actions (e.g: Phasing) although the basic TOTM was achieved.
Physical exercise during WBTB (15 min.) Post-WBTB relaxation exercise.

Wheres the Gym? - TOTM - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Matt1

So I think I may try this soon. If I use cough drops alone, what would be a good starting dose? And should I do this before bed or during WBTB?

----------


## CanisLucidus

> So I think I may try this soon. If I use cough drops alone, what would be a good starting dose? And should I do this before bed or during WBTB?



Hi Matt!  My personal preference is to use menthol during WBTB if possible.  It has a relatively short half-life, so the closer you take it to your dreaming, theoretically the better.  In practice, WBTB has worked best for me, but some have had good results with pre-bed as well.

As for dosage, I like the strategy of starting small, noting the effect on dreaming (if any) and gradually raising to the more typical dose.  A good starting dose may be something like 15-20 mg of menthol.  (Hopefully your drops give you some indication of how much menthol they contain.)  See what the effects are, and if they are mild enough, take a few days off between doses, gradually increasing.  I find 30-35 mg to be a very effective dose for dream enhancement.

The highest dose I've personally used was probably just under 40 mg of menthol, which was 6 cough drops.  This was pretty tedious to choke down!  Good luck, and let us know how you do!

----------


## Xanous

> Hi Matt!  My personal preference is to use menthol during WBTB if possible.  It has a relatively short half-life, so the closer you take it to your dreaming, theoretically the better.  In practice, WBTB has worked best for me, but some have had good results with pre-bed as well.
> 
> As for dosage, I like the strategy of starting small, noting the effect on dreaming (if any) and gradually raising to the more typical dose.  A good starting dose may be something like 15-20 mg of menthol.  (Hopefully your drops give you some indication of how much menthol they contain.)  See what the effects are, and if they are mild enough, take a few days off between doses, gradually increasing.  I find 30-35 mg to be a very effective dose for dream enhancement.
> 
> The highest dose I've personally used was probably just under 40 mg of menthol, which was 6 cough drops.  This was pretty tedious to choke down!  Good luck, and let us know how you do!



I got down 91MG menthol from cough drops. Talk about tedious! Actually cough drops don't seem to effect me that much but maybe everyone is different. I recommend peppermint tea and/or peppermint oil.

----------


## Ctharlhie

I find the difference between caps and drops is in the atmosphere and parasomnia, menthol dreams with cough drops are more prone to displaying atmospheres of violence and dread, with nightmarish undertones to content. On the flipside the content is more fanciful and 'dreamlike'. I am also more likely to experience isolated sleep paralysis on waking, with more hypnagogia and inertia. I've yet to try tea during WBTB.

Also, it's a real shame to see Aly go. I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say that her astounding knowledge and experimentation and guidance an inspiration.

----------


## Highlander

I usually have between 2 - 4 cough drops during a WBTB session. I tend to get an increase in recall and general dream enhancement, with the bonus of a DILD opportunity providing I take the menthol occasionally due to possible tolerence issues.
Combining menthol with my other favourite dream aids seems to help too.

I think it is important to factor in the length of time to ingest a cough drop relative to your WBTB.
For example, I took 10 mentholated cough drops during a WBTB one time where it took about 50 minutes to ingest them all.
A longer and later WBTB usually results in insomnia for me.  ::?:

----------


## Xanous

Has anyone thought about Altoids? I can't seem to find any information about how much menthol or peppermint oil is in it. It's got to be better than eating cough drops or peppermint oil and more convenient than peppermint tea. I saw my wife bought some this morning and got curious. She told me no but I was planning a little menthol tea tonight. I may have to snag up some Altoids to go with or if I'm too lazy try it alone.  ::chuckle::

----------


## Triickz

its a good thing i got some sheesha with menthol in it :smiley:

----------


## CanisLucidus

> Has anyone thought about Altoids? I can't seem to find any information about how much menthol or peppermint oil is in it. It's got to be better than eating cough drops or peppermint oil and more convenient than peppermint tea. I saw my wife bought some this morning and got curious. She told me no but I was planning a little menthol tea tonight. I may have to snag up some Altoids to go with or if I'm too lazy try it alone.



Ha!  That's funny.  This got me curious, so I did a quick search.  The one piece of information I found was from here: http://www.bvsde.paho.org/bvsacd/cd53/ahijevych.pdf

They said:





> In comparison with mentholated cigarettes, it has been reported that candy lozenges (Altoids, Elmsford, New York) *contain approximately 10 mg menthol*, and mint tea (Good Earth Peppermint Herb Tea) contains 9.0¡1.7 mg menthol/240 ml (Gelal et al., 1999).



The Gelal et al paper that they cite is this one: Disposition kinetics and effects of ment... [Clin Pharmacol Ther. 1999] - PubMed - NCBI

What's funny is that there are homemade Altoids recipes out there and they basically use gum paste (aka fondant) and peppermint oil with a little bit of confectioner's sugar.   :smiley:   Here's one: Homemade Altoids Recipe  The point is that seems to indicate that Altoids are just a more sugary packaging for peppermint oil.

So did I read it right that your wife warned you to stay away from her Altoids?   ::lol::

----------


## Highlander

> ^



@ CL. 
Is 'That paper' related to _'That thing!'_  ::lol:: 

Talking about that subject it seems that I got totally distracted by it.


*Date:* Mon July 22nd 2013
*Dose:* (WBTB) L-Arginine (x2) = 1000 mg, Menthodex (Menthol) cough drops (x2) = 0.36 % w/w
*Side Effects:* Very slight sickly feeling/Gripey stomach
*Sleep Duration:* 5.5 hrs  before (WBTB 30 min) 4 hrs approx after. (Total = 9.5 hrs)
*Cognitive:*  Clear thought processes noted.
*Sexual:* No – more sexy than sexual.
*Atmosphere:* Realistic, very stable and very vivid. Excellent.
*Other Comments:* Very good recall (inc. pre-WBTB which included a very brief, now rather vague lucid.) Crisp and very memorable lucid dream post-WBTB. Totem (LH.)

The Fair – (DILD) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Xanous

Thanks CL! I couldn't seem to find any info anywhere. So 10mg huh? Well I took 4 (40MG) early this morning alone with some L-DOPA with little effect and poor recall. (Not worth taking the time to post in the format) I may have been a little too sleepy. BTW way my wife likes to give me hard time especially with the dream supplements. She relented in the end!  ::chuckle::

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* July 30th 2013
*Dose:* (WBTB) L-Arginine (x2) = 1000 mg, Menthodex (Menthol) cough drops (x3) = 0.36 % w/w
*Side Effects:* A slight gripey stomach
*Sleep Duration:* 6 hrs  before, 2.75 hrs approx after. (Total = 8.75 hrs)
*Cognitive:*  Some element of control and reasoning during the LD itself.
*Sexual:* No
*Atmosphere:* A memorable meeting.
*Other Comments:* Good recall all things considered. A memorable DILD. Totem (LH) - incubated. Occasional weak HI/dreamlet noted.

Meeting my GFs deceased Dad (DILD) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* Pre-bed: 100mg 5-htp;  WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, 400mg choline citrate, B5), 500mg choline bitartrate, 600mg Alpha-GPC, 3 bags peppermint tea, 1 bag green tea
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
*Cognitive:* Prospective memory trouble.  Bold behavior.
*Sexual:* Slightly in micro-lucid
*Atmosphere:* Adventurous
*Lucid:* Yes!  One lucid + one micro-lucid

I got a nice, long lucid out of my galantamine / menthol / caffeine mixture.  There were a lot of scene changes and transitions from one environment to the next, but things held together well.   Prospective memory was a bit flaky, but control was for the most part really strong.  Very high quantity and quality of dreaming.

Love this combo!

The lucid dream:
Donkey Kong Junior - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## PeterF

I haven't logged in, in a long ass time. So what did i miss? any new supplements or herbs you guys discovered?

----------


## CanisLucidus

> I haven't logged in, in a long ass time. So what did i miss? any new supplements or herbs you guys discovered?



Welcome back, PeterF!  Speaking only for myself, a moderate dose of menthol combined with a reasonable acetylcholine-enhancing stack is still the most powerful base combo I've hit.  And if you add to that a small amount of caffeine, the odds of lucidity are raised even further and the chances for a WILD go up as well.

The only problem with the galantamine / menthol / caffeine combo is that it's preventing me from experimenting with _other_ potential combos.   :smiley:

----------


## Ctharlhie

I don't know if this has come to anyone's attention, but omega 3 supplements have been linked with prostate cancer(!)
Fish oil supplements linked to prostate cancer - Health News - NHS Choices

----------


## PeterF

> Welcome back, PeterF!  Speaking only for myself, a moderate dose of menthol combined with a reasonable acetylcholine-enhancing stack is still the most powerful base combo I've hit.  And if you add to that a small amount of caffeine, the odds of lucidity are raised even further and the chances for a WILD go up as well.
> 
> The only problem with the galantamine / menthol / caffeine combo is that it's preventing me from experimenting with _other_ potential combos.



Hey Canis, yea i stopped taking combos for the past month. hopefully some of my tolerance is down. what exactly were you taking for the acetylcholine stack? got me interested haha. For the past few months I've only remembered a handful of dreams & little to no vividness on top of that so I'll definitely be taking some acetylcholine enhancers.

----------


## PeterF

> I don't know if this has come to anyone's attention, but omega 3 supplements have been linked with prostate cancer(!)
> Fish oil supplements linked to prostate cancer - Health News - NHS Choices



lol what doesn't cause cancer these days?  :tongue2:

----------


## CanisLucidus

From the morning of 08/03/2013:

*Dose:* WBTB: 3 bags peppermint tea, Yuschak amino acid blend (4g L-glutamine, 2g L-aspartic acid, 300mg L-theanine)
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* ~7 hours
*Cognitive:* Typical non-lucid (aka not too smart)
*Sexual:* No
*Atmosphere:* Creative and surreal.  Slightly creepy in one dream.
*Lucid:* No

I've been trying to see whether I can make the Yuscahk amino acid blend work for me, and I tried combining it with menthol.  I had lots of great non-lucids from this but didn't achieve lucidity.  For all I know, the positive effects may have all been from the menthol, but we'll see what future experiments bear out.

The dreams were all really cool, though, so maybe the AAB isn't completely hopeless for me.  We'll see!  It certainly can't touch menthol + galantamine, though, at least not yet.   :smiley: 





> Hey Canis, yea i stopped taking combos for the past month. hopefully some of my tolerance is down. what exactly were you taking for the acetylcholine stack? got me interested haha. For the past few months I've only remembered a handful of dreams & little to no vividness on top of that so I'll definitely be taking some acetylcholine enhancers.



I'm very sorry for missing this, PeterF!  I'm not sure what happened.

My ACh stack is a galantamine + choline combination.  The best place to learn about galantamine is Thomas Yuschak's very thorough book "Advanced Lucid Dreaming".  If you're interested, definitely pick it up.  It's only $5 on lulu.com.

The dosages that I've worked up to: 8mg galantamine (includes 400mg choline citrate), 500mg choline bitartrate, 600mg Alpha-GPC.  (All at WBTB, of course!)  A starting dose would of course be much smaller.  The lower the dose where you can achiev an effect, the better.  Less risk of side effects and the substance clears from your system more quickly.

Again, if you're interested in galantamine, definitely check out the Yuschak book!  It's filled with great info.  Personally, I've been very pleased by how well menthol (via peppermint tea) seems to combine with a G+C stack.

----------


## Highlander

Aug 16th 2013

*Dose:* (WBTB) L-Arginine (x1) = 500 mg, Vitamin B6 (x1) = 10(Ten)mg, Menthodex cough drops (x2) = 0.36 % w/w
*Side Effects:* Gripey stomach
*Sleep Duration:* 5.5 hrs approx before, 2.25 hrs approx after. Total = 7.75 hrs approx
*WBTB:* Yes - natural (34 min)
*Lucid:* Yes DILD (x2)
*Vividness:* High (especially the last DILD.)
*Stability:* High (as above.)
*Dream Comments:* Very good to excellent recall. High awareness (post-WBTB.) Dreamsigns. Memorable. TOTM (basic)
The lower ambient light/cooler weather (rain) probably helped me drop off to sleep after my (slightly late) WBTB.
(N.B. I did recall a pre-WBTB dream in significant detail which would have helped my state of mind and given me more confidence. The WBTB itself was a bit of a 50/50, sort of a half-hearted affair initially.)

Dad and Mom. Art, etc (DILD x2) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Thurs Aug 22nd 2013
*Dose:* (Bed) 1 drop of Clary Sage Aromatherapy oil placed on the end of finger/pillow; (WBTB) 1 bag of Peppermint tea steeped in 0.5 pt cup of warm water for approx 5 min
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* 6.25 hrs approx before (WBTB 30 min) 2.5 hrs approx after. Total = 8.75 hrs
*Cognitive:* Good recall (especially pre-WBTB.) 
*Sexual:* Yes – nudity and adult/dark themes, etc.
*Atmosphere:* Varied, ranging from general to sexual and suicide.
*Other Comments:* Short fragments. Many (NL) dreams recalled. Dreamlet/HI noted. Totem (LH.) Most dreams recalled pre-WBTB however.

The Airliner, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## NyxCC

I haven't updated here for a while so here's a summary of the July trials. Hope I can copy paste the table here. No, for some reason it doesn't work, although I saw a table in one of the workbooks. Anybody know how to do that?  :Uhm: 

Anyways, here's the July summary:

*Date	Combo	Lucid/Comments*
02.July	Pre bed: SJW, 100mg B6, 1 capsule p.oil (200mg)	           2 micro-lds
06.July	Pre bed: 2 bags p.tea, 100mg B6, 200mg valerian	           2-micro-lds, woken up
12.July	Pre bed: 2 bags p.tea, multivits	                                     no, very sleepy
16.July	Pre bed: SJW, 100mg B6, WBTB: 2xp.oil capsules (400mg)           no
25.July	Pre bed: 200mg valerian, 100mg B6, 1 capsule p.oil (200mg)         2 Lds, some DC aggressive beh, possibly related to B6

Now, on to August:

*Date*: 6th of Aug
*Dose*: Pre bed Gingko 120 mg, 1 capsule p.oil (200mg)
*Side Effects*: none
*Sleep Duration*: 9 hrs
*Cognitive*: I was sleepier than usual, and a bit foggy minded during the lucid
*Sexual*: no
*Atmosphere*: there were some not so nice moments (tooth-related) and a bit of chase, plus strange biting mice, but then the lucid part was more relaxed (in the greenery)
*Other Comments*: Although a bit sleepy and skipped taking an additional planned dose of p.oil (200mg), I still managed to pull off a lucid. The dream interrupted two times, which messed my recall a bit, but it left me with the impression of being very long. It certainly made it hard for me to keep track of that I had done, plus it was really hard to tag my actions as everything was happening in the greenery.

Long Journey to the beach

*Date*: 25th of Aug
*Dose*: Pre bed Gingko 120mg, Q10 10mg, p.oil capsule (200mg)
*Side Effects*: none
*Sleep Duration*: 7 ½ hrs
*Cognitive*: vivid, enhanced positive emotions, some neg ones as well, good self-control in ld part, couldnt recall advanced TOTM, but recalled 3 other tasks later in the dream
*Sexual*: no, but romantic moments
*Atmosphere*: interesting non-ld (zoo images, Greek gods exhibition hall), very vivid ld with extremely bright colors.  
*Other Comments*: In times when I cannot use caffeine (due to sleep schedule and wake uncertainty), the combo of Gingko plus peppermint oil capsule pre bed seems to help a lot with dream recall, enhance vividness, and I am not as sleepy (compared to the also nice SJW combo), which means it is easier to ld.

Love triangles and 3steptasks

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* Pre-bed: 100mg 5-htp;  WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, 400mg choline citrate, B5), 500mg choline bitartrate, 1.2g Alpha-GPC, 4 bags peppermint tea
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
*Cognitive:* High
*Sexual:* Minimally
*Atmosphere:* Extreme vividness
*Lucid:* Yes!  Two lucid dreams.

The effect from this combo was outstanding.  I experienced a series of vivid dreams that were mostly about anxiety trying to get lucid or otherwise thinking about dreaming.  I kept waking up from these wondering when I was going to LD, but always had plenty of time.  After a while, it all came together in a pair of ultra-vivid lucids.

Vividness in these was actually higher than waking life, which is a hard thing to describe.  But it's sort of like having everything in your field of view perfectly clear, not just the one thing you're focusing on.  I performed some exercises at the beginning of each dream to try to induce this, so it's not clear how much was down to the tech and how much the supps aided.  Anyway, it was a great couple of LDs, and I got one of the Task of the Year items in the 2nd dream.

Lucid #1
Neon - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Lucid #2 (Asia Task of the Year)
The Great Wall of China - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## NyxCC

*Date*: 1 Sept
*Dose*: pre bed 120mg Gingko, 1 capsule p. oil (200mg)
*Side effects*: none
*Sleep duration*: 8 hrs
*Cognitive*: vividness was above average but recall was much lower than previous trials, possibly due to schedule deviations
*Sexual*: no
*Atmosphere*: normal, with some moments where I failed to meet people's expectations
*Comments*: I had a feeling it may not be the best night to take (waste) the supps as my sleep schedule have been moving towards by-phasic or even polyphasic sleep due to people going to bed and waking up at weird hours. Indeed, after so many nights of random insomnia, I found myself waking up naturally at unplanned times and unable to sleep, then going into deeper sleep. I don't think this has to do with the combo though. Also decided to skip WBTB and taking another 200mg of peppermint oil. Hope to be able to fix this soon.

----------


## Rashni

Menthol is an alkaloid, it increases your heart rate. Are you sure its safe for hypertense persons?

----------


## Rashni

Menthol is an alkaloid, it increases your heart rate. Are you sure its safe for hypertense persons?

----------


## Xanous

I'd say if there is any doubt, then don't do it. I don't think anyone here can give medial advice.  ::whyme::

----------


## Highlander

> Menthol is an alkaloid, it increases your heart rate.



Yes, I would say more so in the pure state.
(Caffeine and Nicotine are also Alkaloids - these have an effect on the brain/heart too, etc. although we generally take them in the form or Coffee, Tea, etc. or in the case of Nicotine, in Tobacco, Cigarettes, etc. rather than the 'pure' state.)





> ...Are you sure its safe for hypertense persons?



Do you mean hypertense as in hypertension (high blood pressure; I'm presuming you do?) or as in hyper-tense as in over-active?





> I'd say if there is any doubt, then don't do it. I don't think anyone here can give medial advice.



Allergies are another thing to consider: Hives, rash, irritation, breathing difficulties, stomach upset, etc.

----------


## Highlander

*Date:* Tues Sept 17th 2013
*Dose:* (WBTB) Menthodex cough drops (x3)= 0.36 % w/w. Galantamine and Choline (x1) = 4/200 mg. 
*Side Effects:* Insomnia. Gripey stomach
*Sleep Duration:* (7.25) – 8.25 hrs
*WBTB:* 49 min (@ 5.15 am)
*Lucid:* Yes (A DILD, plus a micro-DILD)
*Vividness:* Very good
*Stability:* Very good/excellent
*Dream Comments:* Some Hypnagogia/dreamlets noted. Transition sensations. Very good recall with little effort. A long bright main DILD. Good control.
Ability to think about tasks whilst in dream but I did suffer from temporary bouts of (grey) blindness. I was able to ‘hold’ the dream together during these episodes.

Flying, the lake place – TOTM attempt (DILDs) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* Pre-bed: 3 cough drops (22.5mg menthol); WBTB: 3 cough drops (22.5mg menthol)
*Side Effects:* Fairly good night's sleep, reduced coughing.
*Sleep Duration:* 7 hours
*Cognitive:* Bold and daring.  Pretty good pattern recognition.
*Sexual:* No.
*Atmosphere:* Adventurous
*Lucid:* One micro-lucid

I'm recovering from being sick, so these menthol cough drops were being used for their advertised purpose *and* as a dream aid.   :smiley:   Kind of funny to think of reduced coughing as a side effect, but hey, I'm here for the dreams.

I had a nice, long non-lucid where I was participating in all kinds of action/adventure maneuvers and had the dexterity of something like an Assassin's Creed game.  Interestingly, there was little to no actual violence in these dreams, just lots of adventure.

In addition, had a micro-lucid where I wandered into a building that I recognized as being from a video game (Left4Dead) and had a flash of lucidity just before waking up.

A pretty good night, particularly for a month where dream work has been challenging at best.

----------


## Tradl3s

I wonder if it would work to dissolve 4 or 5 coughdrops (High in menthol, of course.) in some water, Pour the water in a humidifier and fall asleep with the humidifier close. Thoughts?

{Next day Edit:}
So it did work quite well, especially that i was not in my own bed. (Long story.) I had about two or three vivid dreams, but me being too lazy to dreamjournal, i do not remember them now.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> I wonder if it would work to dissolve 4 or 5 coughdrops (High in menthol, of course.) in some water, Pour the water in a humidifier and fall asleep with the humidifier close. Thoughts?



Interesting idea, but I wonder if the concentration might be much too low to have any effect...?  Hopefully it wouldn't make your walls too sticky!   :smiley:

----------


## Highlander

> I wonder if it would work to dissolve 4 or 5 coughdrops (High in menthol, of course.) in some water, Pour the water in a humidifier and fall asleep with the humidifier close. Thoughts?



Maybe you could take the idea a little further and use a small amount of the dissolved menthol drops/water (or menthol drops/alcohol) solution like a tincture for sublingual use in the mouth/under the tongue, although it might be strong/cold?

When I put a cough drop in my mouth I guess I'm relying on sublingual action as well as ingestion via the gut. I was also thinking with the amount of movement the jaw does in chewing and sucking then maybe the jaw muscles are being relaxed via repetitive movements?
A key area of relaxation is the jaw and the associated muscles.

Just my 2 cents?  :wink2:

----------


## StephL

I just had to do a RC, when I saw this thread!!
Not wanting to drink black tea in my WBTBs - I drank peppermint tea twice - and at least one of these instances gave me one of my two a bit longer LDs lately!
Peppermint tea!
I love the stuff anyway - and also drinking something warm after waking up!

----------


## StephL

> Maybe you could take the idea a little further and use a small amount of the dissolved menthol drops/water (or menthol drops/alcohol) solution like a tincture for sublingual use in the mouth/under the tongue, although it might be strong/cold?
> 
> When I put a cough drop in my mouth I guess I'm relying on sublingual action as well as ingestion via the gut. I was also thinking with the amount of movement the jaw does in chewing and sucking then maybe the jaw muscles are being relaxed via repetitive movements?
> A key area of relaxation is the jaw and the associated muscles.
> 
> Just my 2 cents?



Jaw relaxation - you are really a genius - will take this above into account as well - but my tea makes me happy already - so tonight the tea it is!

Ooh - I could take this further my own way as well - after having lived a while in Israel - I caught a long-lasting affliction for Nana mint - I took shoots of it home, and grew my own peppermint on the window-shelf for a long while.
I might just get something like this on it´s feet once more - if not with Egyptian/Israeli Nana mint - with another good one - yay!!
That is something completely different to the one in little bags - fresh mint tea - wonderful!!
I put it in my black tea, by the way - and then milk and sugar.
Or only mint and lime juice, sugar and ice..

----------


## CanisLucidus

> I just had to do a RC, when I saw this thread!!
> Not wanting to drink black tea in my WBTBs - I drank peppermint tea twice - and at least one of these instances gave me one of my two a bit longer LDs lately!
> Peppermint tea!
> I love the stuff anyway - and also drinking something warm after waking up!



Nice, Steph, an unintentional menthol success story!   ::goodjob2:: 

I'm glad you had success with that.  I really need to make time for another good peppermint tea WBTB.  It's been too long!

Let us know how your future attempts go.  This thread was always a good place for sharing experiences.

----------


## Highlander

> Jaw relaxation - you are really a genius - will take this above into account as well - but my tea makes me happy already - so tonight the tea it is!



Thanks Stephl. :blush: As the 80's t shirt slogan read - "Frankie says Relax!"





> Ooh - I could take this further my own way as well - after having lived a while in Israel - I caught a long-lasting affliction for Nana mint - I took shoots of it home, and grew my own peppermint on the window-shelf for a long while.
> I might just get something like this on it´s feet once more - if not with Egyptian/Israeli Nana mint - with another good one - yay!!
> That is something completely different to the one in little bags - fresh mint tea - wonderful!!
> I put it in my black tea, by the way - and then milk and sugar.
> Or only mint and lime juice, sugar and ice..



Good luck BTW!  :SleepMeditate2:

----------


## Tradl3s

How is this going for you guys? 
 ::flyaway::

----------


## Highlander

> How is this going for you guys?



I haven't tried Menthol (in the form of cough drops) for quite a while until last week where I combined it with WBTB which resulted in a couple of DILD's on two seperate mornings.

I managed to get some extra strong packs at better than half price as it was ex stock.  :smiley:

----------


## Xanous

I actually intended to get some caffeine pills but used some candy cane flavored green tea that my wife bought for me instead. I figured it would be nice since I haven't used menthol in forever and I was pleased with the results. I'm not sure how much of it can be attributed to menthol with all the other stuff I took and the many ingredients in the tea, but... here it is.

Dose: WBTB: 4 bags Candy Cane Lane® Holiday Herbal Teas | Celestial Seasonings, 1mg Melatonin, 100mg B6
Side Effects: sour stomach, wakeful
Sleep Duration: 7 hours
Cognitive: High. Well in control. Talkative. Battled excitement.
Sexual: No
Atmosphere: Typical OBE/WILD. Vivid
Lucid: Yes

He Loves Zebras - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Xanous

Hey btw guys. I'm really dumb. I just happened to take a closer look at the box of that candy cane green tea this morning. IT'S DECAFFEINATED!  :Big laugh:   I guess this one was *all menthol related*. I don't understand the insomnia I got after the LD though.  ::whyme::  What's funny is that I had been drinking this instead of my usual tea. I guess I don't need caffeine anymore, so that's good.  ::D:

----------


## NyxCC

I guess we could start another thread - the power of belief or something like that. We could make blind experiments, prepare a supp capsule and an empty capsule, then take one without looking. Go to bed. After you wake up check which one you took.  ::lol::

----------


## CanisLucidus

> I haven't tried Menthol (in the form of cough drops) for quite a while until last week where I combined it with WBTB which resulted in a couple of DILD's on two seperate mornings.
> 
> I managed to get some extra strong packs at better than half price as it was ex stock.



LOL, nice, the ol' "Expired Cough Drop-Induced Lucid Dream"   ::chuckle::   Combining it with WBTB is always what's worked best for me.

I haven't had as much opportunity to test it lately since it's been hard for me to predict when I'll actually have my WBTB (and therefore don't know when to prepare my peppermint tea.)  Apart from the occasional stomach discomfort, menthol has been a great way to increase dream density and generate interesting dream content.





> Hey btw guys. I'm really dumb. I just happened to take a closer look at the box of that candy cane green tea this morning. IT'S DECAFFEINATED!   I guess this one was *all menthol related*. I don't understand the insomnia I got after the LD though.  What's funny is that I had been drinking this instead of my usual tea. I guess I don't need caffeine anymore, so that's good.



Heh heh, nice... you know what though?  I sometimes had to deal with just a touch of insomnia after a peppermint tea WBTB.  I could usually work through it but it was there.  I don't know what exactly caused it, but I usually had to wait just a bit longer to fall asleep.

Whatever gets you lucid!   ::goodjob2::

----------


## Highlander

> I guess we could start another thread - the power of belief or something like that. We could make blind experiments, prepare a supp capsule and an empty capsule, then take one without looking. Go to bed. After you wake up check which one you took.




^ Funny you say that, the subject of suggestion/belief did crop up in this thread some time ago, which can be seen in these posts:





> You know, if we were *really* doing this hardcore in the name of science, Alyzarin would give half of the participants menthol tablets, and half of the participants menthol "flavored" tablets (i.e., sugar pills/placebos), but not actually tell the participants what kind they have.
> 
> I wonder how easy it's for me to take a sugar pill with *the power of suggestion,* "This pill will affect your dreams!" and have it *actually* affect my dreams.
> 
> *The power of suggestion is strong...*








> You know, this is only the beginning of the experiment.  I wasn't going to take anything as fact until a good number of people who've used menthol have also gone for a period of time without using it, then used it again, then stopped, etc.... Basically enough that the changes we're getting are definitely induced by menthol. However, I have no doubts that it does effect dreams in one way or another.
> 
> If you want to distribute *placebos*, though, be my guest. It'll sure move this along faster.



@ NyxCC.
It is a good idea. It might be hard to disguise a calea Z. capsule though. Even an l-arginine capsule has a slight taste to it (not a gelatine taste) when you pop one in your mouth.

I want to try one of those blue lozenge shaped tablets made by Pfizer.  ::D:

----------


## NyxCC

That's interesting. Maybe some researcher out there is browsing these threads and will conduct such experiments as part of a study. That'd be cool.  ::D:

----------


## Xanous

Wow! So its been a long time since I combined peppermint tea with galantamine. I forgot how much menthol adds to the experience. I ended up with 6 lucids this morning!  Ill have to post them later but holy crap the increased HI made LDs a walk in the park.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> Wow! So its been a long time since I combined peppermint tea with galantamine. I forgot how much menthol adds to the experience. I ended up with 6 lucids this morning!  Ill have to post them later but holy crap the increased HI made LDs a walk in the park.



Xanous!!  That's incredible, man, congratulations on the LDs!  I really need to do a peppermint tea WBTB again soon.  My WBTB's have become so sporadic lately that I'm never sure what night to brew one up before bed.

You may already be planning on posting a trip report in this thread, but if not I was curious how strong of a tea you made.

----------


## Xanous

No I wasnt going to do the usual post. Lol. I brewed 3 bags in one mug of water. I wanted a long wbtb so I didnt brew beforehand. I think the fresher brew was more potent that way.

----------


## NyxCC

Congrats!!! Wow, three bags that must be a very strong taste.  ::D:

----------


## Highlander

> Wow! So its been a long time since I combined peppermint tea with galantamine. I forgot how much menthol adds to the experience. I ended up with 6 lucids this morning!  Ill have to post them later but holy crap the increased HI made LDs a walk in the park.



Contratulations and wow, such enthusiasm - you make it so tempting for me to try this in the day (when awake!)






> You may already be planning on posting a _trip report_ in this thread, but if not I was curious how strong of a tea you made.



Strong enough to post in Erowid maybe?  :tongue2:

----------


## Xanous

> Congrats!!! Wow, three bags that must be a very strong taste.



A little but not too bad.





> Contratulations and wow, such enthusiasm - you make it so tempting for me to try this in the day (when awake!)



 I was pondering the same thing but then I'd be missing out on lucids.  ::lol:: 






> Strong enough to post in Erowid maybe?



You caught that too?  ::D:

----------


## StephL

Ah - I sometimes need exactly such a thing Xanous, to motivate me - a peppermint WBTB it will be tonight!
 ::yddd::

----------


## Xanous

> Ah - I sometimes need exactly such a thing Xanous, to motivate me - a peppermint WBTB it will be tonight!



Go for it! ::banana::

----------


## Highlander

All hail...  ::bowdown::  Xanous - 'The motivator!' 


http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/high...tc-dild-55473/

I did waste nearly half a packet of cough drops and some C.Z. though beforehand.  :Sad:

----------


## StephL

Yeah - definitively - even if my WBTB was postponed due to me having caught a nasty cold - but today is peppermint-overkill already - need fluids, and got lemons and indulge in the stuff at the moment. Close to a 1 l at the moment - 4 bags - and I'll keep at it - loving the stuff!

----------


## FryingMan

I don't know if the peppermint tea I have tried is too weak or has lost its potency (the minty flavor is usually not all that strong), but I don't notice any difference whatsoever between nights with peppermint tea and nights without, even at WBTB.   I do have some alcohol-based menthol extract, however, and there's no doubting its minty-strength, I could try that in some water at WBTB....what dosage do people recommend?  

For combining with galantamine, have you tried several times both with and without the menthol to establish that the menthol really makes a difference?

----------


## Alyzarin

Yessss, this thread is still active. X) Hey everyone!!!!  ::movingmrgreen:: 

It makes me so so so happy to see that you guys are still having success with this.... Aww, being back here again makes me so nostalgic.  ::dreaming:: 

I don't know how long I'll be here but for some reason or another I was possessed to stop by DV today, so I felt compelled to stop by and say hello.... So hello.  ::bow:: 

Xanous, if you write a glowing, detailed trip report for Erowid I will do my best to make sure it goes through.  ::lol::  I have some connections there now. XD Think of the publicity!!

----------


## Highlander

Welcome back Alyzarin! 

I could have done with your knowedge when I was trawling the Internet reading about glutathione, N-acetyl-cysteine, etc, etc.

Trouble is it all goes 'whey' over my head!  :wink2:

----------


## Alyzarin

I'm guessing those chemicals are in whey? XD Thanks, Rob!  ::content:: 

 ::hug:: 

Hehe, what did you want to know about those? I can look into them now if you'd like.  :tongue2:

----------


## NyxCC

Alyyy!  ::sheepishgrin:: 

We miss you with your inspiring in-depth research! 

Love the recent activity in this thread!  ::goodjob2::  I've got to spend some time reviewing past entries and good combos.

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## CanisLucidus

> I don't know if the peppermint tea I have tried is too weak or has lost its potency (the minty flavor is usually not all that strong), but I don't notice any difference whatsoever between nights with peppermint tea and nights without, even at WBTB.   I do have some alcohol-based menthol extract, however, and there's no doubting its minty-strength, I could try that in some water at WBTB....what dosage do people recommend?  
> 
> For combining with galantamine, have you tried several times both with and without the menthol to establish that the menthol really makes a difference?



If you're going with a single bag of tea, try slowly ramping it up.  It took about three of my bags to get a fairly noticeable effect and I've brewed a tea with as many as 6 bags to good effect.  But if you started small, you're doing exactly the right thing.  It's so much better to find the minimal effective dose and then work _up_ only as necessary.  Dramatically less risk of side effects or desensitization that way.

And yeah, I've certainly tried menthol without galantamine as well.  (Apart from Xanous and myself, I am not sure any others have combined menthol w/ galantamine.)  Without galantamine, menthol led to a large increase in dream content, adventurousness, and often sexiness with only a mild increase in lucidity.  With galantamine, I generally get a large increase in lucidity, so combining the two was particularly dynamite for LDing.  (IME.)





> It makes me so so so happy to see that you guys are still having success with this.... Aww, being back here again makes me so nostalgic. 
> 
> I don't know how long I'll be here but for some reason or another I was possessed to stop by DV today, so I felt compelled to stop by and say hello.... So hello.



Woohoo, good to see you back here, Aly!   ::D:   Your return _must_ be a sign that I'm meant to try a menthol WBTB this weekend.  I'm not one to stand in the way of destiny.





> Xanous, if you write a glowing, detailed trip report for Erowid I will do my best to make sure it goes through.  I have some connections there now. XD Think of the publicity!!



Erowid connections, nice!   ::chuckle::   How can there be no menthol section on there?  Well, we've got 37 pages of trailblazing happening right here.   ::goodjob2::

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## NyxCC

Short update: Tried a small amount of Gingko (30mg) and 200mg peppermint oil capsule pre bed. What was very interesting is that I woke up from a quite vivid dream around 60-90 mins after falling asleep (something about ghosts that weren't there?). This is among the ealiest vivid dreams with good recall at the time of waking.  :vicious: 

Was looking forward to more vividness alas got woken up a multitude of times, so that kind of messed up my sleep agenda.

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## Alyzarin

> Alyyy! 
> 
> We miss you with your inspiring in-depth research! 
> 
> Love the recent activity in this thread!  I've got to spend some time reviewing past entries and good combos.



Hey NyxCC!  ::D: 

Aww, thank you!  ::hug::  I've missed you guys too, I think about this thread often.  :smiley: 

I'm very happy with how things are going as well, I'm so glad to see that menthol is still working for people!





> Woohoo, good to see you back here, Aly!    Your return _must_ be a sign that I'm meant to try a menthol WBTB this weekend.  I'm not one to stand in the way of destiny.



Thanks, Canis!  ::content::  It's good to see you too!  ::hug:: 

Hehe, that's right, I am just an agent of destiny. ;D Go, menthol man, go!

Hmm, I really need to take some menthol again myself actually.... I've been remembering more and more of my dreams lately but they haven't been _quite_ sexy enough for my liking.... This needs to be rectified!





> Erowid connections, nice!    How can there be no menthol section on there?  Well, we've got 37 pages of trailblazing happening right here.



I agree, it's a travesty! We'll have to prove to them that menthol is a worthy psychonautical tool worthy of recognition! >:O Oh and yeah, that's a loooong story heh.... A lot of things have been happening in life lately. o.O

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## Xanous

> Xanous, if you write a glowing, detailed trip report for Erowid I will do my best to make sure it goes through.  I have some connections there now. XD Think of the publicity!!



ALYZARIN!!!!!  ::banana::  I don't get DV time as often as I used to but I miss seeing you on here. Thanks for popping in.  ::D:  I may actually do a post on Erowid soon.

I was wanting to do anther G/menthol WBTB but with a sick kid in the house it didn't feel like a good time for it. I didn't want to ruin a good G run since I only take it once a week. However, I did do a menthol/Mucana Pruriens WBTB. The LD was really short but I had lots of vivid dreaming.

*Dose*: 3 bags Bigelow Peppermint Tea, 1600mg Mucana Pruriens/240mg L-Dopa
*Side Effects*: none
*Sleep Duration*: 9 hours
*Cognitive*: Average
*Sexual*: No
*Atmosphere*: Typical OBE/WILD. Slightly unstable
*Lucid*: Yes

Monkey Around - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views






> For combining with galantamine, have you tried several times both with and without the menthol to establish that the menthol really makes a difference?







> If you're going with a single bag of tea, try slowly ramping it up. It took about three of my bags to get a fairly noticeable effect and I've brewed a tea with as many as 6 bags to good effect. But if you started small, you're doing exactly the right thing. It's so much better to find the minimal effective dose and then work up only as necessary. Dramatically less risk of side effects or desensitization that way.
> 
> And yeah, I've certainly tried menthol without galantamine as well. (Apart from Xanous and myself, I am not sure any others have combined menthol w/ galantamine.) Without galantamine, menthol led to a large increase in dream content, adventurousness, and often sexiness with only a mild increase in lucidity. With galantamine, I generally get a large increase in lucidity, so combining the two was particularly dynamite for LDing. (IME.)



I agree with CL's answer. Also, I notice a difference between galantamine with menthol vs. galantamine without menthol. For me, menthol in the form of peppermint tea makes a noticeable difference with increased vividness, HI and clearer LDs. In my opinion menthol makes a great additive to any LDS.

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## Voldmer

> Short update: Tried a small amount of Gingko (30mg) and 200mg peppermint oil capsule pre bed. What was very interesting is that I woke up from a quite vivid dream around 60-90 mins after falling asleep (something about ghosts that weren't there?). This is among the ealiest vivid dreams with good recall at the time of waking. 
> 
> Was looking forward to more vividness alas got woken up a multitude of times, so that kind of messed up my sleep agenda.




My experience with ginkgo is rather limited, but it rhymes with yours. For me, ginkgo taken before bedtime leads to restless sleep with many awakenings and no success at WBTB-time. Supposedly ginkgo increases the blood flow, but my guess is that it does so throughout the body - not simply through the brain - and thereby works against restful sleep by keeping the body too 'aroused' (for lack of a better word).

If this is true, then ginkgo might be better taken at WBTB-time. But my personal experience with that is not encouraging either.

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## NyxCC

Oh, I had some good results with Gingko, especially when it comes to boosting memory and dream vividness. Still,  there might be a trade off when it comes to extra awakenings - but still not the insomnia of B6 with me. I got smaller dosages now - 30 mg instead of the 120 mg per capsule, which helps take as much as needed at different times.

I was browsing through my old entries and trying to replicate a milder version of this. Also, I am currently trying to find a combo that might allow me to skip the wbtb every once in a while, hence the comeback to gingko and menthol combos.





> Date: 25th of Aug
> Dose: Pre bed Gingko 120mg, Q10 10mg, p.oil capsule (200mg)
> Side Effects: none
> Sleep Duration: 7 ½ hrs
> Cognitive: vivid, enhanced positive emotions, some neg ones as well, good self-control in ld part, couldn’t recall advanced TOTM, but recalled 3 other tasks later in the dream
> Sexual: no, but romantic moments
> Atmosphere: interesting non-ld (zoo images, Greek gods exhibition hall), very vivid ld with extremely bright colors. 
> Other Comments: In times when I cannot use caffeine (due to sleep schedule and wake uncertainty), the combo of Gingko plus peppermint oil capsule pre bed seems to help a lot with dream recall, enhance vividness, and I am not as sleepy (compared to the also nice SJW combo), which means it is easier to ld.

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## Highlander

Poor man's galantamine...
(or very expensive cough drops?)

total cost/total quantity
75/10 per pack
= 7.5 p per sweet

Session consumption
7.5 x 4 
= 30 pence  :tongue2: 


*Date:* Sun April 5th 2015
*Dose:* Approx *38.5 mg (x4) Honey and Lemon cough drops
*Side Effects:* Initial insomnia and stomach bloating/griping 
*Sleep Duration:* Approx 6 hrs / approx 2.0 hrs after (Total = 8 hrs approx excl. WBTB and sleeplessness)
*WBTB:* Yes (30 min)
*Lucid:*  Yes
*Vividness:* Fair to Good. Excellent in places
*Stability:* Good
*Dream Comments:* Initial short dreamlets. Very short micro DILD involving vibrations beforehand. Very long DILD an hour later initialised by a major dreamsign of mine.
N.B: (*The menthol quantity is not quoted on the later packs. I have therefore based this figure on my earlier entries.)

At least I didn't see 3 ft high pigeons on my garden lawn this time!

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## NyxCC

Poor man's G, I like that!  ::chuckle:: 

Congrats on the lds and no giant pigeons. 

I actually still have a few capsules left from few years ago, time to take them and restock.

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## Xanous

The menthol thread is back baby!

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## Highlander

July 15th 2015

*Dose:* Jakemans H & L menthol cough drops (x2)
*Side Effects:* None.
*Sleep Duration:* 4 hrs 54 min : 3 hrs 04 min. (Total = 7 hrs 57 min approx)
*WBTB:* Yes - 35 min (@ 5.15 am)
*Lucid:* Yes, very short Dilds (x2)
*Vividness:* Very good.
*Stability:* Average.
*Dream Comments:* A timing related project incubated from during WBTB period, inc a couple of (audible) false positives. High recall. A couple of FA’s noted. Dreamsign – met up with my dad (deceased IWL.)
I should also point out that the pre-WBTB non-menthol NLD was memorable in its own right due to the subject matter (namely ex-GF.)

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## Dthoughts

What is this link with cough and dreaming... why does the syhrupt for cough make you dream? I always questioned this

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## NyxCC

Congrats on the lds, Highlander!  :smiley:

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## Highlander

Fri Jan 6th 2017

*Dose:* 48.5 mg Honey & Lemon cough drops in total (5.30am x5)
*Side Effects:* None
*Sleep Duration:* About 5.9 hrs : 3 hrs after (Total = 8.9 hrs approx)
*WBTB:* Yes (0.5 hrs)
*Lucid:* Yes (DILD)
*Vividness:* Average to good
*Stability:* Fair to good (initially)
*Dream Comments:* Micro-awakening post-WBTB where I noticed a typical sensation associated with my sleep state/awareness and body.
Main dream become more solid upon grounding (by touching the grass).
Summersault action destabilised dream scenario, causing tunnel vision and affecting lucidity/awareness.

N.B. This is probably my fourth (and strongest) DILD of the year so far. The others were either shorter, more vaguer or a lot weaker; albeit non-supplemental/unaided.
This is all on the back of not keeping a regular or daily dream journal for well over a year due to Uni commitments, projects, etc.

(From (past) experience Ive noticed that regular journaling is the key to becoming more involved in the recall and eventual (self) awareness in dreams).

P.S. It would be nigh impossible to do a test without some form of WBTB involved however.

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