# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity > Lucid Aids >  >  Exciting new EILD device: Oneirics!

## FryingMan

This project is FryingMan-approved: I've been in contact with the inventor for a few months now, I've given the inventor a few suggestions which he's incorporated but mostly I've helped with English copy for the kickstarter project, his web page, etc. He's a really good guy and is a lucid dreamer himself. He's really serious about this and has been working on this a long time (3+ years). This is the most exciting EILD project I've seen so far. Check it out, I know I can't wait for mine!   Google for kickstarter and oneirics (dreamviews disallows direct links) to find the project.

There are so many cool things about this project:

Training wristband that reminds you during the day to RC and signals you while dreaming that you're dreaming (more than just an alarm, because the same signal you get during the day to RC is what you can get while you're sleeping!)AI self-adjusting dream detection and notification algorithmtwo-way communication: signal that you're dreaming via pre-programmed eye movements and the app will post to social networking that you're currently having a lucid dreamrich set of configurable notification sources: mask lights, mask buzzer, smartphone sound, wrist buzzer

I tried to get dreamer to dreamer communication included in the first product but that would be too much work. Maybe version 2!

Oh he has a stretch goal to work on a tACS device!

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## MisakaMikoto

tACS Device
Oh yeah  ::yeah:: 

This sounds like an amazing and effortless future for lucid dreaming
From experiments tACS 40 Hz seem to give around 70% success rate, increased vivideness of dreams and nearly 100% dream recall
Combined with Rem Phase Detection it will be quite quite Awesome (Assuming that we won't be already masters of lucid dreaming by day of Oneirics tACS Device release  :Cheeky:  )

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## DoubleHelix

I really like the concept and would purchase such a device, especially if there is positive results/feedback w/r/t efficacy.  Not totally crazy about the buckle on the mask, though.  Hard metal pressed into my skin by the weight of my melon-head does NOT sound appealing nor conducive to a good night's sleep.    ::chuckle:: 

DH

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## FryingMan

> I really like the concept and would purchase such a device, especially if there is positive results/feedback w/r/t efficacy.  Not totally crazy about the buckle on the mask, though.  Hard metal pressed into my skin by the weight of my melon-head does NOT sound appealing nor conducive to a good night's sleep.   
> 
> DH



I've reviewed the campaign site again and the buckle is clearly only associated with the wristband.   skip to 2:50 in the video where the woman takes off the mask with one hand: clearly a velcro based band.

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## Verre

Thanks for posting this! I like to back projects along these lines in the hope that enough funding and encouragement will keep the improving the available technology. 

I haven't found a technological solution that has worked for me yet, but I maintain high hopes that one of the newer ones in development might hit the mark. I've never liked wearing a sleep mask, but I should probably learn to get used to it...  ::eh::

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## FryingMan

Yes I've been sleeping with a sleep mask over a year, and can't now do without it  :smiley: .  It's like a security blanket.    Even remee which I found uncomfortable at first is now my preferred sleep mask because it blocks light better than my regular cheapo mask.   Maybe you would like Aurora iWinks since it is not a mask at all, but a band that sits up on the forehead.  For that reason I do not hold a lot of hope for iWinks myself since if shines light down into your eyes and if you wear a mask the light would be blocked.    But I'm going to get it in any case since I think dream tech is cool, and it's supposed to ship soon (October, November 2014 hopefully) and I want more lucids of course!    And iWinks has EEG-based REM detection, after remee I will only purchase further dream tech with REM detection.    I knew remee didn't have it and thought I could still work with it but so far it's a big bust.   I still have some combinations and timing  tweaks to try out, and it's decent as a non-audible alarm to (sometimes) wake you up for a WBTB but that wasn't the hope.

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## Tlaloc

Thanks for posting this FryingMan - I checked out the site briefly yesterday. I've had some experience with EILD's both with light with a novadreamer (result=0) and using a vibrating alarm which got me quite a few lucids through direct incorporation into the dream. So I think - as you mentioned - this looks very promising. The key difference between a light and vibrating cue is that the light cue most often gets *indirectly* incorporated into the dream - its morphed into something different and vague and hard to recognize or train for (where every light source could potentially be a cue), whereas I found the majority of the vibration cues simply got *directly* incorporated as that - a vibration - especially as the daytime practice was identical (I wore the vibrating alarm on my ankle during the day and night). It pays to have the vibration occurring in an area where this would be unlikely to confused by the brain as something else. For example when on my ankle it mostly got directly incorporated as a the device vibrating on my ankle in the dream (as there are few other sensations in life which would cause my ankle to vibrate). However when I switched it to the ball of my foot, it got incorporated indirectly as my foot shivering in cold water - and I missed the cue and didn't get lucid - so placement of the vibration is important.

The thing I thought was alittle odd was that they were incorporating the vibration into the mask as well as the wrist band. In my experience (and I'm not a light sleeper I'd say I'm medium) the noise of the vibration would sometimes wake me up even with an airplug in and even with it on my ankle. Its difficult to make a vibrating device without some sort of noise, but I'd presume you could switch this off from the mask and just use the wrist band if you found this to be an issue.

In my experience you still need a degree of awareness to get the vibe incorporated into the dream as well - so I tended to use it only after a short (5min) wbtb early in the morning (around 4-5am). When I set the vibrating alarm off from the start of the night I'd just end up sleeping through it. But perhaps this device would allow a sort of ramping up in intensity of the cue - if you are in a deeper sleep its likely you'll need a stronger cue to get it incorporated into the dream than when you're in a lighter sleep. 

The final hurdle is habituation to the signal - I think this is less likely if (outside of waking practice) it is only being presented during REM sleep. My problem using a vibrating alarm on a timer was that it got presented a lot during NREM and whilst it was effective for around 8 wks giving me regular lucids after that I seemed to become frustrating habituated to tuning the signal out. I've since worked out a way around this - but its interesting to think how prolonged use of these devices isn't often explored by their makers - most of the data comes from short term trials - excluding (or avoiding) the potential for habituation.

Anyway - beyond these thougths -  I am really pleased to see someone is making a vibrating cue device with REM detection (the only previous one was the ill-fated PEST with the novadreamer), my feeling and experience is that a lot of people will have success good with this pretty easily - at least initially, as long as it is customisable.

cheers - T

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## DoubleHelix

> I've reviewed the campaign site again and the buckle is clearly only associated with the wristband.   skip to 2:50 in the video where the woman takes off the mask with one hand: clearly a velcro based band.



Yep.  You are 100% correct.  I plunked down my money and hope with all my heart others will do the same. There are features of this device that set it head and shoulders (pun intended) above all the others.  This, I feel, is the "real deal" - a device that will do what it claims.

* Disclaimer:  I have absolutely no connection or association with this project or any of the individuals involved in the research and development of this product.
*
DH

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## Verre

> And iWinks has EEG-based REM detection, after remee I will only purchase further dream tech with REM detection.    I knew remee didn't have it and thought I could still work with it but so far it's a big bust.   I still have some combinations and timing  tweaks to try out, and it's decent as a non-audible alarm to (sometimes) wake you up for a WBTB but that wasn't the hope.



I backed the iWinks KS as well and I'm looking forward to it -- I'm hoping that since it is a headband and _not_ a mask, I might find it more comfortable to sleep in than the bulky Remee. I also agree that REM detection is really important. The timer on Remee involves enough guesswork to be a real obstacle. 

The vibration function of the Oneirics device seems promising too! As for habituation, though, Tlaloc raises some good points... I've had more than one promising technique go down the drain once my mind catches on and goes, "Yeah, whatever, I see what you did there."

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## Nfri

The world needs realiable working EILD device. I believe that someday it will be done and it will start revolution in mass human thinking. That is what I stand for! The sooner the better...

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## FryingMan

So while I can't ask for support for the KS campaign (DV rules), let me say that it would be such a terrible shame if this product never saw the light of day.   It would set back EILD for the public for years I think.   They still have a ways to go to make the goals.

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## Bharmo

Checked it yesterday and looks good.
I found interesting how, in the age of EEG, they said "hey, we found out that traditional eye motion detection is more effective than the cheap EEGs out there everyone is using, so we are sticking with it"
To me that means "We want this to really work"
But I agree that all EILD based on giving the dreamer a cue is subject to a certain degree of habituation risk. I have no experience with EILD, so Tlaloc, you said you worked your way around habituation, could you share your experience on that?

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## Sageous

In reading this thread, I can't help but feel a bit bad for LaBerge, or perhaps pity his woeful lack of business acumen.

I have one of LaBerge's DreamLights, which I bought over 20 (gasp!) years ago, and, aside from obvious technology updates like bluetooth and that "AI" system in the mask, this device does pretty much exactly what my DreamLight did.  Moreso, from what I know about the ever-unfinished NovaDreamer 2, there likely will be no difference between the two. Even the trainer is merely an update of LaBerge's P.E.S.T. (though I plan on buying one of these, as my P.E.S.T. finally died after a decade of use, and I would like another -- this type of device is probably the single most valuable mechanical/electronic tool for LD'ing I've seen). And yes, the DreamLight communicated with the P.E.S.T., and, though I'm not sure this "AI" technology existed then, the DreamLight did at least track your REM cycles and offer other feedback... it probably would not have been a problem to communicate from your dream as well, though I don't think LaBerge went there.

I often wonder why LaBerge never filed patents for his stuff, or why he couldn't bring himself to put systems he designed years ago on the market first, opening doors to letting devices like Oneirics look new and revolutionary.  I guess he likes to share.  

I am impressed as well at the creator's cojones in actually _citing_ LaBerge in his copy. Wait! ... Do I have this all wrong?  FryingMan, do you know if your friend is simply putting LaBerge's forever-promised-never-delivered NovaDreamer 2 on the market _for_ him, because LaBerge has proven completely inept at doing so himself?  That would be very cool if it were the case!

Also, I feel obliged to add my usual sentence here saying that even this excellent device will not _make_ you lucid.  It will only tell you that it is time to become lucid.  You still must do the work preparing your mind for lucidity and, of course, preparing your mind to notice the mask's signals and remember what that signal means. Contrary to the copy in the Oneirics sales material, this machine will not make you lucid simply by turning it on. If it works as advertized, Oneirics will be a great help in gaining lucidity, but it won't do the work for you.  And no, a REM device will not control your dreams, period.  

Also, given that the DreamLight, NovaDreamer, and assorted knockoffs have been around for decades with no revolution in becoming lucid, a pause must be taken to wonder why we don't all have one now as a matter of course... You'd think, if REM devices just _made_ you lucid, that someone like Sony would have mass produced it by now -- Playstation Zz, perhaps -- and lucidity would have become commonplace by now (the perfect VR of LD'ing seems a pretty easy sell to me, once you've licked how to turn on the machine).

That said:

FryingMan, this post is not meant to disparage this device at all.  I actually like it.  I will definitely buy that trainer, should it come on market, and might even be tempted to replace my long-dead DreamLight with the mask as well.  This is good stuff, and could be an excellent aid to lucidity.  I guess I just noticed that it really isn't revolutionary, or even new, I remembered my annoyance at LaBerge (who loves making money, BTW) for never producing his inventions, I woke up a little ornery, and all that mixed together this morning, spurring me to put up the only (sort of) contrary post on this thread.  I honestly hope that it does go to market and sells quite well, because any aid to lucidity will help the cause. I hope you will forgive my curmudgeonry!

 ::cheers::

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## FryingMan

Sageous, I agree with everything you've said.   The fundamental feature set is that of the early LaBerge devices (although I didn't know that the REM detection in the LaBerge mask signaled the P.E.S.T. to do it's buzzing thing).  

What's "new" is just creating it and offering it for sale *now*, in a modern package (low power bluetooth, smartphone configuration, etc.).

Everyone in the known lucid dreaming universe the slightest bit interested in EILD would RUN to buy the ND2.   LaBerge is *really* missing the boat.    Anyone who has spent any time in business knows the fundamental rule is: ship *now*, own the market, improve iteratively over time.     He was (and perhaps still is before these and other devices like it will flood the market) in a unique position to totally dominate this market.

And yes, the hard work of getting lucid is up to you.   I continue to be a bit doubtful of the claims of "take a LD newbie to LDing every night in just a few days."  I wish he hadn't made that claim, as he would be held up to it.    But he has a desire to be successful, and making perhaps exaggerated claims is rather commonplace in any market.

What has me really confused is: why there's aren't *more* REM detecting, multi-device solutions like Oneirics in the works or already on the market.   Maybe the answer is that it's not all that easy to do, or that the results don't match the expectation?    

But regardless, I really want this!

And I'd think the trainer itself would be much much much more useful together with the REM-detection.   Otherwise isn't it just a remee (a simple timer) all over again?    Maybe as noted above, vibration on the wrist/ankle is much more resistant to habituation/incorporating into a dream scene than are lights(?)

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## Sageous

> What has me really confused is: why there's aren't *more* REM detecting, multi-device solutions like Oneirics in the works or already on the market.   Maybe the answer is that it's not all that easy to do, or that the results don't match the expectation?



I think it's a little of both those things.  I also think it might be something far more simple:  the people who invent these things are generally not the same people who lucid dream.  

LD'ing is still a fairly rarely practiced art, so perhaps it has just been odds that have prevented these devices from coming to market:  It took a while for someone like your friend to come along with the relevant interest combined with the needed skills and resources to create a good product.  





> But regardless, I really want this!



 I don't blame you.  I dropped $1,200 that I really did not have on that DreamLight without hesitation; I hoped it would solve a major problem I was having, in that waking-life career activity had stifled my daytime work and nighttime focus.  Funny thing -- and perhaps a cautionary tale -- though I used it steadily for a couple of years, and it worked as advertized, the DreamLight very rarely made me lucid -- I can't tell you how many times I saw its signal manifest in a dream only to, say, admire a brilliant sunset or watch a firetruck drive by; or, already lucid, said, "oh yeah, there's the DreamLight."

But yes, this can be an excellent tool.  





> And I'd think the trainer itself would be much much much more useful together with the REM-detection.   Otherwise isn't it just a remee (a simple timer) all over again?    Maybe as noted above, vibration on the wrist/ankle is much more resistant to habituation/incorporating into a dream scene than are lights(?)



Well, I see the trainer as an excellent reminder device for doing RC's, or just keeping your thoughts about LD'ing on a front burner all day.  I assume it will have a timer that can be set to "random," so that you can be reminded to RC without having to schedule them, or fall into a rote habit doing them.  I know there are other devices that do this, but there's something about using a distinctly LD'ing-oriented device that makes it simply work better.

I think LaBerge tested all sorts of stimuli (including vibrations) and ultimately found that light works best. That said, it wouldn't hurt to include a vibration in the signal, as that might help avoid misinterpreting it during the dream.

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## FryingMan

In terms of light being the best signal, I find that I very very rarely notice the remee lights in dreams, to my knowledge at least.  I have it set to what I call the "nuclear" option: full brightness, going off every 5 minutes once the initial delay is hit, and I've seen it in dreams no more than 3 times in many months of use, every time fully consuming my vision (not being incorporated into subtle lights in the dream).   I have not been entirely consistent, but I thought that I would be seeing the signal in dreams much much more frequently.   Perhaps the brightest setting is too bright and I need to keep experimenting.   I do recall thinking about/looking at one funny red light on the roof of a helicopter once in a dream so may be that was the remee -- very very subtle.

As noted by an earlier poster, the theoretical benefit of vibration is that it is rarely interpreted as anything else but what it is, at least on particular spots on the body.

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## Bharmo

I think until we get something that just makes you lucid easily (like maybe tACS) the general public wont be interested in spending their money AND having to do a lot of work in order to experience something that they consider "is not real" anyway.
BTW, something that makes myself suspicious about EILD devices is, why they never say X people have tried it and Y of them are having regular lucid dreams?
Anyways, IMHO it is a very good idea to combine the mask (which as said won't make you lucid) with the trainer (that helps a lot with day work)

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## Sageous

> In terms of light being the best signal, I find that I very very rarely notice the remee lights in dreams, to my knowledge at least.  I have it set to what I call the "nuclear" option: full brightness, going off every 5 minutes once the initial delay is hit, and I've seen it in dreams no more than 3 times in many months of use, every time fully consuming my vision (not being incorporated into subtle lights in the dream).   I have not been entirely consistent, but I thought that I would be seeing the signal in dreams much much more frequently.   Perhaps the brightest setting is too bright and I need to keep experimenting.   I do recall thinking about/looking at one funny red light on the roof of a helicopter once in a dream so may be that was the remee -- very very subtle.



I'm assuming that the remee does not have REM detection built into it?  That feature is critical in these devices, I think.





> As noted by an earlier poster, the theoretical benefit of vibration is that it is rarely interpreted as anything else but what it is, at least on particular spots on the body.



Might be true; I'm just repeating what LaBerge learned in his experimenting.  Keep in mind that our eyes are much more connected to the physical world than are our tactile senses, so there might be a chance that the vibration is not detected at all. Also, never underestimate your dreaming mind's ability to reinterpret even the most unique signals. That vibration could easily become an earthquake, your ankle being eaten by bugs, a dog humping your leg, or almost anything else -- we are very creative beings, especially when not lucid.

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## FryingMan

> I think until we get something that just makes you lucid easily (like maybe tACS) the general public wont be interested in spending their money AND having to do a lot of work in order to experience something that they consider "is not real" anyway.
> BTW, something that makes myself suspicious about EILD devices is, why they never say X people have tried it and Y of them are having regular lucid dreams?
> Anyways, IMHO it is a very good idea to combine the mask (which as said won't make you lucid) with the trainer (that helps a lot with day work)



I'm hoping the mask WILL make me lucid when the signals are all concentrated throughout your REM instead of throwing a dart in the dark with a pre-set timer.   And the Oneirics mask also has a buzzer, and also can communicate with your smartphone to play sounds, and will vary the notifications (the "AI" algorithm) until one is found that works, and will vary the notifications to prevent habituation (claimed at least).

Sageous: correct, remee (what a name they chose!   Bordering on fraud.) does not detect REM: it operates only on an initial delay timer, and only has 2 preset delays, selecting a new time (say you feel fairly awake and want a slightly longer delay than what you already have selected) involves reprogramming the device by opening it, holding it up to your  computer screen,  and changing the settings on the remee web site.    Pretty much useless for hitting dream times from bedtime, but hopeful as a alarm-DEILD device but I haven't really made a serious effort to use it as such.  Alarm-DEILD generally is not for me because once I'm in my key dreaming time, if I wake up I'm usually up for the day.

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## Bharmo

> I'm hoping the mask WILL make me lucid when the signals are all concentrated throughout your REM instead of throwing a dart in the dark with a pre-set timer.



Sorry, I meant ATM no EILD device will literally make you lucid, but just give you a cue, and you make yourself lucid when you recognize the cue. And that's why the trainer is a good addition, so that one trains easier to recognize the cue.
Anyway, I believe the clever think to do is expect a mild increase in the odds to get lucid (I think LaBerge said 10% with his masks?) and not expect a magic solution (which of course I know you don't expect, FM)

(Hate posting from my phone!)

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## Tlaloc

Apologies if this reply is a bit warped - just returned from my kids school disco! (If you're a parent you'll know these things are often loaded with subsidised drink from the adults!).

Thought I'd jam another 2cents in the slot as its an interesting thread. Regarding incorporation of stimuli into dreams - again theres been a reasonable amount of research into this - both inside and outside of lucid dreaming, infact if you go outside of lucid dreaming research theres a lot more information. Anyway Hearne (who invented the 'original' dream machine) did quite a lot of research on this, and some of its really interesting. He was trying to get people lucid through incorporation of stimuli. Anyway he tried various stimuli - small  samples (his Liverpool uni Phd) so maybe not that scientific but still of value - he tried smells, and light and tape recordings and tactile stimulation. He found that a water spray to the body gave the greatest INCORPORATION into the dream scene when applied in REM sleep - but resulted in zero lucidity. The reason being the spray got indirectly incorporated - people had dreams of people spitting on them, raining on them, urine - all sorts of odd incorporations of water but never direct enough to make the dreamer lucid. He settled on electro-tactile stimulation of the wrist in a series of pulses as a better stimulus - less total incorporation but when it was incorporated it was much more likely that the dreamer recognized the stimuli and became lucid.

that seems to me to be the key thing - just getting the stimuli incorporated isn't enough. Its as much, or more, about how directly the cue is incorporated into the dream.

As to my own experience with the vibrating alarm, and also harkening back to Herne and La Berges experiences with vibration - 2 days training is more than enough in daytime practice. After that - you're set, it really is that straight forward. From using the vibration on my ankle the only confusions I really had was once or twice I felt the vibration in a dream and mistoke it for a vibrating cell, or I dreamt I was programming the clock and it was vibrating (a sort of FA). But 80% of the time it was (and is) directly incorporated. Well - to qualify - sometimes the brain changes the vibration length or adds sound - so occasionally you can become lucid just by noticing a difference in the type of vibration. La Berge had good success with vibration induced lucid dreamer but didn't go further due to 'technical issues' at the time. Herne developed his machine but it never went commercial.

I think this group look like they've on to a good thing. So perhaps the time for a vibrating cue really has come. Regarding the habituation issue.....



> Tlaloc, you said you worked your way around habituation, could you share your experience on that?



 hopefully it might not be an issue with a REM detecting based device. I am happy to discuss this if you are interested dreambh - you could pm me. In short in my experience (a sample of one I'm afraid!) you need to perform some sort of activity whenever you encounter the signal - awake or asleep - as Sageous alluded to - using an EILD is not a passive experience, become passive and you will lose the ability to become lucid once the novelty of the stimulus wears off.

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## Bharmo

There was some interesting discussion in the comments section of KS on whether the company is legit. And they also mention the results o their tests, I think 85% of subjects got first LD ever in 2 weeks, and 80% of LDers doubled their rate.
Looks promising!

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## FryingMan

I believe it's completely legit.   There's another update coming with more pictures from production.   Of course, one can't really know until the product is sitting in your hands.

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## Sageous

> There was some interesting discussion in the comments section of KS on whether the company is legit. And they also mention the results o their tests, I think 85% of subjects got first LD ever in 2 weeks, and 85% of LDers doubled their rate.
> Looks promising!



Promising yes, but not really telling.  I wouldn't mind seeing the stats on the subjects' _second and third LD's_. A powerful placebo effect can accompany tests of devices like this.  How the machine works after the effect wears off would be a good piece of information to share, especially if the LD rates remain high.

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## Bharmo

> Promising yes, but not really telling.  I wouldn't mind seeing the stats on the subjects' _second and third LD's_. A powerful placebo effect can accompany tests of devices like this.  How the machine works after the effect wears off would be a good piece of information to share, especially if the LD rates remain high.



Yes, you're right we would need to know about more than the first LD to know the it really woks on "novices", I myself got my first LD a couple of days after reading about LaBerge's work, so I know determining the cause of a single LD is, well, impossible?
Still, knowing that it has doubled the rate of most of most LDers that tested it say a lot about its efficacy.

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## DoubleHelix

> Promising yes, but not really telling.  I wouldn't mind seeing the stats on the subjects' _second and third LD's_. A powerful placebo effect can accompany tests of devices like this.  How the machine works after the effect wears off would be a good piece of information to share, especially if the LD rates remain high.



There is no doubt that more and further information would be beneficial, but I look at it this way:  The device is a training tool.  I use all manner of training tools for activities that are difficult to master.  Ever try hovering a radio controlled helicopter "nose in" where left is right, right is left and front and back are also reversed?  For training (to avoid thousands of dollars worth of repairs and rebuilding delays, R/C helicopter and airplane pilots such as myself use computer simulator programs.  They work WONDERS.  I put this Oneierics device in the same category.  It'll help teach me the requisite skills of daytime awareness, and clue me during REM...giving me the best chance to attain lucidity - arguably supplementing my own motivation and desire to succeed - just like the flying simulators.  You acquire the requisite skills in less time.  For me (being 61 years old with a lot of catching up to do) this device would be a godsend.

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## FryingMan

^^ Well said DH.   The backing rate is looking depressingly slow for Oneirics, I really hope they make it.   Otherwise, like I said, I guess it's time to dust off the soldering iron and microcontroller programming manuals and make one of these things for myself, dangit.       And I bet I can finish it before ND2 comes out!!!! (Such a project would take me years.... haha...joke on ND2 lateness).

Another device came out recently on kickstarter : Guidy.   Doesn't look nearly as well-thought out developed as Oneirics, lucid dreaming was sort of a tack-on rather than a ground-up purpose.    But it has rem detection and lights (manual settings) for notification.    I think Oneiric's AI notification (always varying notification signal) is really important to avoid habituation.

I find I can practically sleep all night long with REMee on highest brightness signaling for 15 seconds every 5 minutes these days, which is not a good sign.  It will wake me up if I'm in very light sleep or already awake or very close to being awake, but that's all.   I should probably stop using the notification so that any habituation wears off  in time for a real REM detecting mask.

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## Bharmo

> Another device came out recently on kickstarter : Guidy.   Doesn't look nearly as well-thought out developed as Oneirics, lucid dreaming was sort of a tack-on rather than a ground-up purpose.    But it has rem detection and lights (manual settings) for notification.    I think Oneiric's AI notification (always varying notification signal) is really important to avoid habituation.



Thanks for letting us know FM!
Obviously Oneirics is much more advanced, having the AI and trainer. But on the other hand Guidy might be what we all expected Remee to be, an affordable REM detecting LDing mask.

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## FryingMan

Yes good point.   I wouldn't mind a REM-detecting remee!

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## DoubleHelix

Yeah, I'm a bit upset at the sluggish funding rate.  IMHO not only do I WANT one of these, I really think I may NEED the kind of assistance and training this device would provide.  My life is so packed with obligations and so fast-paced and stress-filled, it is hard to find time and sometimes even REMEMBER to do my daytime awareness, reality checks, and other exercises that would enhance my chance to have more lucid dreams.  By the time I get home after battling traffic, I'm often upset with myself that I've done none of the prerequisites to have a lucid dream....AGAIN.   :Crying:  

 If I plunked down my hard-earned cash, you KNOW I'd use the Oneierics device!  Frankly, I've managed to convince myself it would be helpful.  I sure hope the community comes together and helps turn this device into a reality.

DH

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## FryingMan

Well it's not going great on KS but the creator mentions that he will get alternative funding and make a small production run and have some of the backers review the device in order to prepare for another try later on, check out the latest comments for the details.

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## Shaman1982

I've went through this threat and still don't know what device you guys talk about, what is KS?

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## FryingMan

KS is the crowd-funding site kickstarter.    Google for "kickstarter oneirics" and the #1 link should be the right one.

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## Shaman1982

Oh OK thanks, the campaign doesn't look like it's going to succeed. Did you hear about luciding? That is suppose to be another LD aid. It will be head wristband with REM detection and 40Hz stimulation.

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## FryingMan

Yeah I've seen luciding before, but anything that is not standalone (you must subscribe to their service apparently for the device to work?) is a no-go for me.  Additionally, I don't think I'm going to be an early adopter of the first round of brain-zapping devices, let alone a brain-zapping device controlled by a 3rd party over the internet.

They need to publish a whole lot more information about the particulars of their devices.   How do they detect REM, for instance?  Also, I think you meant "headband".

"Give the device away [at cost, allegedly] and charge for service" is a great marketing approach to try, but I wonder if it will work in this market.

As always, we want to see studies of long-term effectiveness.    The reality of the new devices though is that we don't have this information yet.

Here's the contemporary market so far:

ND2: beta test in Spring, 2014 @ the LaBerge Hawaii retreat, silence from the lucidity institute ever since

Aurora: supposed to ship this month, October 2014, they're slipping and have not said by how much

Oneirics: probably not going to make the kickstarter campaign, but at least will do a beta test of a small production run in the next couple of months hopefully

Remee: still waiting for my first lucid from it after 5 months.    My sleep schedule is too irregular for a non-rem-detecting device to have any hope of working I think.   I've noticed the signals about 3-ish times in dreams, every time waking me up instantly.    The tweaking of iniitial delay and notification just seems to take forever.

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## Verre

> Yeah I've seen luciding before, but anything that is not standalone (you must subscribe to their service apparently for the device to work?) is a no-go for me.



Ugh, a subscription? I was wondering how long it would take for the vultures to start circling around our hobby, now that it's getting better known. But trying to launch a subscription service at this point seems doomed to failure. News about the 40-Hz brain zapping technique only came out earlier this year... this is still edgetech, not a method streamlined and reliable enough to turn into a subscription-based service.

That said, I'm excited about this tech and can't wait to zap my own brain! Electricity! Woo! But I'm definitely going to hold out for a stand-alone device.

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## Sageous

^^ The upside of the vulture culture though, is that, in the end, LD'ing is the one hobby that we can pursue for free -- all this stuff is only gravy, and not required equipment...

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## Bharmo

Wow, never heard of Luciding before, but I've check a slideshare and... What can I say... Maybe is best to quote their claims: 




> We give the device for as low as 2 months subscription. $75
> This includes:
> - 150 dreams
> - unlimited selectable dreams
> - thematic dreams
> - group dreams



Etc etc
How can they advertise this at all?
 :Oh noes:

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## FryingMan

For $75 I'm almost tempted to try it except I don't want to subject myself to electroshock therapy.   Just had two awesome LDs this morning au natural though, so maybe I really don't need this.

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## Sageous

I would probably save the $75 -- Dreambh makes a good point; these particular guys seem to have just gone to a LD'ing forum, picked every common goal, and then promised they would happen... that seems a bit specious to me, I think.  Also, as Verre mentioned, it would take years to develop a program to actually influence the content of dreams from the outside; to say that you can do it just months after someone noticed the potential to do it is, well, downright suspicious.

That said, you probably needn't worry about electro-shock treatment, FryingMan, as it is not the torturous process that it once was.  It turns out that electro-shock therapy was always a good idea -- and it works -- but the doctors who used it back in the bad old days of the therapy didn't know how _much_ shock to administer; so they administered in terms of amps rather than milliamps.  Still, where specifically to send those milliamps is still very much in the air in general, so I highly doubt that anyone has advanced this technique enough to consistently trigger, much less organize and program, lucid dreams.

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## FryingMan

Oh, I absolutely do not believe in the dream content control.  Only hoping (again) for REM detection and lucidity aid.

But you are right.  This is one beast I think that does not deserve to be fed.  Better to assist real honest-to-goodness inventors like (I'm hoping) Oneirics is.

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## Verre

Exactly. The fact that the Luciding guys have the temerity to promise "group dreams" when shared dreaming is a phenomenon about which we do not yet understand the extent to which it exists, IF it exists, suggests that their business practices are irresponsible if not out-and-out fraudulent. Grrrr!  :Pissed:

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## digitalvygr

> Apologies if this reply is a bit warped - just returned from my kids school disco! (If you're a parent you'll know these things are often loaded with subsidised drink from the adults!).
> 
> Thought I'd jam another 2cents in the slot as its an interesting thread. Regarding incorporation of stimuli into dreams - again theres been a reasonable amount of research into this - both inside and outside of lucid dreaming, infact if you go outside of lucid dreaming research theres a lot more information. Anyway Hearne (who invented the 'original' dream machine) did quite a lot of research on this, and some of its really interesting. He was trying to get people lucid through incorporation of stimuli. Anyway he tried various stimuli - small  samples (his Liverpool uni Phd) so maybe not that scientific but still of value - he tried smells, and light and tape recordings and tactile stimulation. He found that a water spray to the body gave the greatest INCORPORATION into the dream scene when applied in REM sleep - but resulted in zero lucidity. The reason being the spray got indirectly incorporated - people had dreams of people spitting on them, raining on them, urine - all sorts of odd incorporations of water but never direct enough to make the dreamer lucid. He settled on electro-tactile stimulation of the wrist in a series of pulses as a better stimulus - less total incorporation but when it was incorporated it was much more likely that the dreamer recognized the stimuli and became lucid.
> 
> that seems to me to be the key thing - just getting the stimuli incorporated isn't enough. Its as much, or more, about how directly the cue is incorporated into the dream.
> 
> As to my own experience with the vibrating alarm, and also harkening back to Herne and La Berges experiences with vibration - 2 days training is more than enough in daytime practice. After that - you're set, it really is that straight forward. From using the vibration on my ankle the only confusions I really had was once or twice I felt the vibration in a dream and mistoke it for a vibrating cell, or I dreamt I was programming the clock and it was vibrating (a sort of FA). But 80% of the time it was (and is) directly incorporated. Well - to qualify - sometimes the brain changes the vibration length or adds sound - so occasionally you can become lucid just by noticing a difference in the type of vibration. La Berge had good success with vibration induced lucid dreamer but didn't go further due to 'technical issues' at the time. Herne developed his machine but it never went commercial.
> 
> I think this group look like they've on to a good thing. So perhaps the time for a vibrating cue really has come. Regarding the habituation issue..... hopefully it might not be an issue with a REM detecting based device. I am happy to discuss this if you are interested dreambh - you could pm me. In short in my experience (a sample of one I'm afraid!) you need to perform some sort of activity whenever you encounter the signal - awake or asleep - as Sageous alluded to - using an EILD is not a passive experience, become passive and you will lose the ability to become lucid once the novelty of the stimulus wears off.



I will likely be PMing you Tlaloc.  The other night I tried an actigraphy based REM detecting app that allowed vibration of my iPhone which I had strapped to my wrist, and I had and AWESOME OBE/WILD experience.  So I became a believer in the whole vibration as a trigger thing and went out and bought a Fitbit Charge.  Problem there is it vibrates a bit too long so wakes me too much.  

Would definitely be interested in your thoughts and what you used for vibration around your ankle, etc.

As for the Oneirics project that failed, they failed because they blew the marketing angle of this thing.  It appeals only to us hardcore geeks who already KNOW how awesome Lucid Dreaming is.  I have analyzed a bunch of these failed campaigns, and have helped a buddy script his own KS campaign that got funded, the failure is not the idea, it is getting people jazzed about it.

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## FryingMan

> I will likely be PMing you Tlaloc.  The other night I tried an actigraphy based REM detecting app that allowed vibration of my iPhone which I had strapped to my wrist, and I had and AWESOME OBE/WILD experience.  So I became a believer in the whole vibration as a trigger thing and went out and bought a Fitbit Charge.  Problem there is it vibrates a bit too long so wakes me too much.  
> 
> Would definitely be interested in your thoughts and what you used for vibration around your ankle, etc.
> 
> As for the Oneirics project that failed, they failed because they blew the marketing angle of this thing.  It appeals only to us hardcore geeks who already KNOW how awesome Lucid Dreaming is.  I have analyzed a bunch of these failed campaigns, and have helped a buddy script his own KS campaign that got funded, the failure is not the idea, it is getting people jazzed about it.



Oneirics went out on KS without having already built a large series of endorsements / awards from external organizations.  The timing was also unfortunate in that several failed/fraudulent LD projects came just before it so people are very leery of any LD projects.  And yes it is comparatively a very niche market to begin with.   So yeah I basically agree that Oneirics was a marketing failure.   But it's not dead, keep your eyes peeled for it returning in the future after a beta run with users.

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## Ctharlhie

Now that Onierics seems to be on hold for the moment, do any of you guys know anything about NeuroOn? Seems it has built in EKG/EEG, looks interesting.

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## FryingMan

Just what I've read on the KS.   Last time I checked LDing didn't seem to really be seriously on their radar.   If they can detect REM reliably then you'd think they could have a LD function.    I think our current best bet is Aurora.   Hopefully devices like NeuroOn will have public SDKs where REM detection could be used to transform it into a LD device.

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## Ctharlhie

> Just what I've read on the KS.   Last time I checked LDing didn't seem to really be seriously on their radar.   If they can detect REM reliably then you'd think they could have a LD function.    I think our current best bet is Aurora.   Hopefully devices like NeuroOn will have public SDKs where REM detection could be used to transform it into a LD device.



Any idea whether NeuroOn will be opening up to third party app developers? perhaps other devs would more tap into the lding potential?

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## FryingMan

> Any idea whether NeuroOn will be opening up to third party app developers? perhaps other devs would more tap into the lding potential?



That's what I meant with SDK (= software development kit, for 3rd party developers).  So, I hope!    Oneirics was definitely going to have an SDK, another reason why it rules (ruled?) the current crop of devices, at least comparing specs.

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## DoubleHelix

Sure wish we were getting more frequent updates / status reports from the Oneirics folks...   ::disconcerted:: 

I'm definitely committed to plunking down my $$$ for this device.

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## TheUncanny

I pre-ordered the Aurora (has EEG-grade REM detection), but it's going to be another few months until I'll see anything.  In the meantime, I was considering getting a Zband or other wearable vibrating alarm to assist with my WBTB/Rhythmic Napping approach to LDing.  Not really finding one that had everything I wanted (and not wanting to spend a lot of money) I ended up downloading the "Alarm Clock Xtreme" app instead.  Got two LDs the first night I used it, one WILD from the initial alarm and followed that up with a DEILD.

The app is not perfect however --  it's missing a lot of things that would've been helpful for an LDer like me.  As such, I'll be working with a coworker of mine (who also is a programmer) to develop my own app specifically for my method of LDing. If it works well enough, we might even go public with it.

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## FryingMan

^^ Yeah I have my own plans, I think every software engineer who's a LD enthusiast has plans for their own LD app  :smiley: .

With the availability of cheap, small, reasonably powerful and fairly easily programmable CPUs creating a customized vibrating device should be quite possible.  Woohoo summer project perhaps!

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## TheUncanny

Well if you ever get something going I'd love to check it out.  Unfortunately, I'm pretty dependent on my coworker to get ours up and running (I'm more of the UI/UX guy, he's the programmer). But he's already designed one piece of LD software for me, so I think he'll come through.   Speaking of which, I need to create some mockups this weekend to keep the momentum going...I hate when projects fizzle out.

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## pointofbeing

According to their kick starter the mask works by tracking eye movements, and breathing.  I'm not sure from the pictures they have on the net, how it could possibly read eye movement, they claim " four ultrasensitive tracking sensors." What they actually are is never really stated, in the worst case scenario just a standard array of Gyro sensors like a cellphone, and they are claiming that as reading eye movement. As long as it's not the worst case scenario, they sound to have cool tec here, but they got to break down just what it is they have in the mask that records the eye movement, (what kind of sensor, not just that it's ultrasensitive) and what then deciphers it? A CPU of some sort?  I'm always weary of the instant lucid products.   Especially after Iwinks. In the best case scenario If they are using infrared optical sensors like an shrunk down dual-Purkinje eye tracker, then there is massive potential for accuracy. And I will be very interested.

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## TheUncanny

> I'm always weary of the instant lucid products.   Especially after Iwinks.



What happened with iWinks?

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## FryingMan

I believe Oneirics uses infrared sensors for eye tracking and accelerometers for head movement detection.

The problem(s) with iWinks are: 1) the inventors have unbelievably poor KS communication (very sparse updates, and almost no quick comment updates, ever), 2) the product was designed and implemented and then redesigned (at least once), after the kickstarter campaign.  

Oneirics was basically ready for production (hardware-wise) at the beginning of the kickstarter campaign, it had already been in steady development for 3 years prior to the KS.

So iWinks used the KS for funding both initial development and ramping to production.

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## TheUncanny

Yeah communication is pretty poor, but I for one think the redesign was worth the extra time it took.  IMO, waiting a few extra months for a superior product is better than suffering an inferior product forever more.

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## FryingMan

The "perfection treadmill" results in vaporware.   Just look at ND2.   YEARS and no sign of it even being close.   The lucidity institute keeps putting off even an *update* of the status, and ND2 was supposed to have beta'd in March 2014 at LaBerge's retreat.  I've worked a career in the technology industry and seen time and time again this pitfall ruining otherwise awesome companies.   They key to success is to "ship early and often."  Get something workable, ship it, and immediately work on the successor.   No product is *ever* perfect or even ideal.   Look at iPhone for instance, the perfect example of ship now and iterate.  If Apple had waited until now to release iPhone1 with all the features of iPhone6, they would have missed the window and lost tremendous amounts of revenue (and people would not have had their awesome phones for years).

Ship now, *then* improve.

Of course, the trap with products that provide a subjective experience like lucid dreaming masks is that they may not work *at all* and the company never gets the chance to iterate.   That may indeed be their fear.    So in one sense I do commend them in their dedication to quality, since they've got their money and so I think the delays come from a real dedication to the product.

However, they need to learn to give better status updates, at least quick comments.

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## Ctharlhie

If I were to place my bets, would you say go with Aurora or wait for the market to develop?

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## FryingMan

Yes I think Aurora will ship, hopefully by mid-summer.   Hope it works!  Ah, really wishing the Oneirics made it, the combination of vibration, lights, and sound is probably the idea notification.   We'll see!

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## pointofbeing

"What happened with iWinks?"

They had to redesign the whole thing because the ground electrode, did not work as it was originally placed.  Would have been very inaccurate if they released it as it was.  

 Infrared eye tracking on  Oneirics should be much more accurate, as a sign to a computer ai about your current rem status.  As long as it's not completely void of decent lenses, or has issues thinking every eye movement is rem.  It looks like it would be uncombable to where to me tho, as it's basically a camera and a cellphone attached to your head.

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## cooleymd

This survey link has been on their facebook page for a few weeks now

Beta tester survey
After some delay with the updates, we are launching the survey in order to choose the Oneirics beta-testers.
If while answering these questions you feel you might not be fit to become a beta-tester, do not worry: in the next updates we will propose other ways to become a beta-tester.
We feel that all of you are part of Oneirics, we appreciate your support and we want to reward you for it.
In the next updates we will explain different ways to support us, and the winners will become beta-testers too.
You can visit the following link to access the survey:
http://survey.oneirics.com/

hopefully this thing will reach the market within a year, but looking at the bulk of their mask I think I might be time to get out a 3D printer and print our own

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## Highlander

> What happened with iWinks?



My two cents:

(1) The design keeps changing as FryingMan, et al have pointed out.
(2) The shipping date keeps getting pushed back, etc. also noted by Frying Man previously.
(3) Also the 'original' Kickstarter promo page main campaign slogan keeps being changed _after_ the original date after the funding success with all backers on board and money raised.

The pitch has gone from a plausable one to a downright misleading claim which is yet to be proved.

Eg: Jan 21st 2014 (Funded date) 
Aurora: The Dream-Enhancing Headband
by iWinks LLC

*Prohibited Link Removed*

April 2nd 2015 - The Aurora: Dream Augmenting Headband
(The Aurora headband plays lights and sounds for lucid dreaming with a smart alarm clock to help you sleep better.)

*Prohibited Link Removed*

June 16th 2015 - Aurora: The Ultimate Lucid Dreaming Tool
(Aurora is the world's most powerful sleep sensing device for dream augmentation.)

*Prohibited Link Removed*

In my eyes Kickstarter should not allow the original page header to be changed in this way after funding is secured. The original backers and anybody landing on the page now are having their hopes and expectations raised in a somewhat misleading way.


Re: Oneirics





> Hopefully this thing will reach the market within a year, but looking at the bulk of their mask I think I might be time to get out a 3D printer and print our own.



I wouldn't bank on it personally.

BTW maybe anybody who is interested in filling out the Oneirics survey can also ask what proof and crudentials 'Tony' (aka Antonio Moreno Frias) has in regards to sleep and brain research.

He claims an impressive 15 years. 

*Prohibited Link Removed*

Try 'Google.'
(3D modelling -Yes. Dream-related forum? Sleep research? )


P.S. I have a dream journal and I lucid dream regularly - so I guess I'm a sleep/brain _researcher_!  ::chuckle::

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## FryingMan

^^ Seems to be some confusion between Aurora/iWinks and Oneirics.    Say what you will about Oneirics, but at least there were several years of prototype designs done *before* asking for funding for production on kickstarter, as opposed to iWinks which apparently funded their entire design including prototypes.

Why take Oneirics to task on sleep research, etc?   The relevant research has been done already: lucid dreaming masks are now all about engineering and production, not about sleep research.

And yes the Oneirics mask look large from the modeling pictures but it's really quite small if you look at the physical pictures.

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## cooleymd

> And yes the Oneirics mask look large from the modeling pictures but it's really quite small if you look at the physical pictures.



In an age of flexible circuit boards and custom plastic printers all of the masks in development just seem a bit stone aged

flex.jpg

I hope after Lucidity experiences some market expansion a real corporation comes along and makes a totally light weight and flexible device using modern plastics etc

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## Highlander

> ^^ Seems to be some confusion between Aurora/iWinks and Oneirics.



Nope. They are all misleading in one way or another.





> Why take Oneirics to task on sleep research, etc?   The relevant research has been done already: lucid dreaming masks are now all about engineering and production, not about sleep research.



Agreed. But by notable people such as Ceilia Green, Keith Hearne, Stephen LaBerge, etc. Why claim to have 15 years experience? 





> ...lucid dreaming masks are now all about engineering and production, not about sleep research.



Beta testing? End user input?
More like these guys are in to make a quick buck after seeing Inception.





> Say what you will about Oneirics, but at least *there were several years of prototype designs done* *before* asking for funding for production on kickstarter, as opposed to iWinks which _apparently_ funded their entire design including prototypes.



Source?

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## FryingMan

You can check the Oneirics KS page, there are photo histories of the early designs.

You can double guess all you want.  I get a solid impression of the Oneirics project, and I believe Tony is genuine.    But I'll reserve all final judgement until the working devices are in front of me.

Tony is a genuine LD enthusiast who's spent years working on this.   I have no problems at all with people who want to try to build a business from their interests.

It's the luciding group that really galls me: outrageous claims, and a "service model" plan.

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## Highlander

^^ Obviously I have to respect your opinion in regard to Oneirics even though I beg to differ. I go on gut instinct initially, then I research rather than guess.

However I'm 100% with you with the latter. I did raise my fears and concerns (publicly) about that one last year.

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## xintenseities

Hello everyone! I read this thread and found that Oneirics kickstarter campaign failed to get enough funds to produce it's LD device, but looks like it's making a come back. I watched the YouTube vids and it look's promising. In all honesty I cant say if eeg sensing masks work because Iv'e never tried one, but I have invested the money in The Aurora Dream Band. As mentioned before this isn't even a mask it sits on your forehead and it has eeg sensors as well as rapid eye movement sensors ( like Laberge's design )  as well as the ones used commonly on smart phones. Beta testing has begun, and they are in the final stages of production. I have been in contact with Danny Schoonover, and I must say his credentials are good. He worked with neurosky before starting this venture. Most people thought it was a scam, I do not believe it is, and until proven otherwise I think it's the best bet out there for helping lucid dreamers achieve lucidity. I was chosen for early testing and I will keep you all posted on my progress once I get it. Thank you for listening!

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## Highlander

Personally with all the hype and expectations I think there will be major challenges with the Aurora, delays aside. I mean for starters they have changed the case design 2-3 times. Even now the new iwinks(org) website layout next to the latest design pictures states a disclaimer 'design subject to change,' plus the new owl logo looks suspiciously like the mascot used by luciding. (An owl BTW.)

I found it a bit odd when iwinks (in KS Update #33) claimed that the test enclosures had _warped in the heat_ during transit?
Did the courier go via Death Valley perhaps?

They even had the cheek to pass the 3 terminal ZEO snap on headband idea off like it is their own.

[rant] End of rant.  :;-):  [/rant]

Maybe you could create a new thread devoted to your tests as a lot of people would be interested. In failing that there are a couple or so threads devoted to the Aurora in this category.

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## xintenseities

Thank you Highlander for your response. Yes I agree that there is a lot of hype expectations going on with the Aurora, and yes your rants are acceptable indeed! They may have ripped of some of the technology from neurosky and ZEO, but I think the mascot looks cool... :-)  They also have had a lot of design changes and complications with their device, but it's almost in mass production. I'm in! Any way I do have a question. If I'm just a lurker here can I even start a thread?

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## Highlander

I guess the iwinks team mean well in fairness. My gripe is the way these devices are marketed with the glossy surreal utube imagery storylines, like you will be a pro without any real effort. Inception or deception?

Regarding posts: I think so. I don't think you are restricted as long as the thread is in the relevant subject area.

BTW good luck with the tests. I look forward to reading them.

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## FryingMan

Oneirics is continuing its progress towards beta testing devices.   My big problem with Aurora/iwinks is that it does not sit on the eyes.  I sleep in a very light environment most of the time and I need to cover my eyes with a mask or a shirt or something, so this may be a show stopper.      

The delays with Aurora show how hard it is to bring a consumer device to market.  My beef with them is that they were not upfront about their actual stage of progress before their KS.   Oneirics already had enclosure molds finished *before* their KS campaign, with several years of design and iterations already completed.    It seems like Aurora only had very early plans before launching their campaign, in essence funding not just production, but development as well.    Their communication track record is poor as well.

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## TechHeadSteve

Posting here as the Aurora sounds fascinating but would like to read a few reviews before I purchase.
In the meantime does anyone have any links to any of these light bands that have been mentioned in this topic for me to try?

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## xintenseities

Posting links to products that are for sale is not allowed. Google the aurora lucid dreaming head band to see what its all about.

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