# Lucid Dreaming > DV Academy > Current Courses > WILD >  >  WILD According to Sageous Q & A

## Sageous

Please use this thread to post any questions you have about the WILD According to Sageous Sessions, WILD, self-awareness, or any other related topic. I'll answer what I can, and maybe lively discussions will also ensue -- from which we all always learn!

Best of Dreams,

Sageous

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## RareCola

Was just wondering whether we are to create workbooks to track our progress. Haven't seen you mention them anywhere yet?

I completely agree with you on the ADA. For the most part, I believe I have always practiced hyper-awareness in my life. It does definitely eventually become more like routine, as with the mouse and fish example. I'd never heard of this ADSA until now though, can't wait to start trying it out. Definitely seems like a better method than ADA.

EDIT: Also, will you ever be doing live Q&A in the #DVA chatroom on IRC, similar to how Ophelia and fOrceez do for the intro class?

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## Sageous

> Was just wondering whether we are to create workbooks to track our progress. Haven't seen you mention them anywhere yet?



I did mention earlier that I didn't see much need for notebooks.  Here's what I said:





> That's up to you, but from my perspective that shouldn't be necessary. The beautiful/annoying thing about WILD is that it's one of those "You're either there or you're not" things, so incremental progress is both difficult to judge and recognize -- for me and for you. I think we are almost better off not looking for and possibly mis-identifying mileposts.
> 
> What I will do as we move along is create a dedicated thread wherin you can describe the WILD attempts that you make, and we'll be able to determine from that whether or not you're "there"... I guess that's sort of like a workbook, isn't it?



... I think this route will work for us here... 






> I completely agree with you on the ADA. For the most part, I believe I have always practiced hyper-awareness in my life. It does definitely eventually become more like routine, as with the mouse and fish example. I'd never heard of this ADSA until now though, can't wait to start trying it out. Definitely seems like a better method than ADA.



Be sure to let us know how it works for you!





> Also, will you ever be doing live Q&A in the #DVA chatroom on IRC, similar to how Ophelia and fOrceez do for the intro class?



 I didn't know I could...I'm one of those old guys you hear about who don't know much about the stuff you guys do every day (my phone, for instance, still plugs into the wall, and has only 12 buttons), so I'm sort of learning as I'm going.  I'll have to look into that; it may come in very handy later on.  Thanks!

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## Taffy

The lesson was very informative. I never knew self awareness had an effect on lucid dreaming, especially not WILD. I tend to just breeze through days without being very aware, so I'll have to practice this.

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## littlezoe

Interesting read in the new thread  :smiley: 

Personally i started using ADA like 3 days ago, interesting that you just talked about it  :tongue2:  Personally when doing ADA, i focus on myself more than my surroundings, so it seems i do it similar to what you explained... Hopefully it can help with both DILD and WILD ^^

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## Sageous

> Interesting read in the new thread 
> 
> Personally i started using ADA like 3 days ago, interesting that you just talked about it  Personally when doing ADA, i focus on myself more than my surroundings, so it seems i do it similar to what you explained... Hopefully it can help with both DILD and WILD ^^



... So you're already ahead of the game; very nice!  And yes, if what you are doing is similar to the reverse RC I described above, it will likely help with both DILD and WILD.   

A quick note, though:  be sure you don't focus on yourself as much as your "self" as it effects and is effected by reality...interaction is key here.

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## Linkzelda

Like littlezoe said, I've been practicing ADA along with Dream Yoga from Sivason's course as well, and I've noticed some subtle augmentation in awareness in my dreams and in waking life.

It's starting to get more fun now instead of a chore, because it helps a lot with using the free time I have to just question my reality, and even though I've done it before, I've always done it in a half-hearted manner. Really glad to take this course and dream yoga simultaneously, hope I'll become a way better person than I was before when I could only remember mostly non-lucids.

And with the CANWILD technique, which skips the relaxation phase (since you use an alarm to wake you up while your body is still), it'll be good to practice the relaxation phase with WBTBs if my CANDWILD attempts fail.

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## Sageous

> Like littlezoe said, I've been practicing ADA along with Dream Yoga from Sivason's course as well, and I've noticed some subtle augmentation in awareness in my dreams and in waking life.
> 
> It's starting to get more fun now instead of a chore, because it helps a lot with using the free time I have to just question my reality, and even though I've done it before, I've always done it in a half-hearted manner. Really glad to take this course and dream yoga simultaneously, hope I'll become a way better person than I was before when I could only remember mostly non-lucids.
> 
> And with the CANWILD technique, which skips the relaxation phase (since you use an alarm to wake you up while your body is still), it'll be good to practice the relaxation phase with WBTBs if my CANDWILD attempts fail.



Yeah, I just looked and saw that there are a few people taking both Sivason and my course.  That is definitely a good thing, because I think our courses are complementary. 

That's excellent that it's getting more fun now, both because that helps your focus, and in the end isn't fun really what it's all about?

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## RareCola

> I didn't know I could...I'm one of those old guys you hear about who don't know much about the stuff you guys do every day (my phone, for instance, still plugs into the wall, and has only 12 buttons), so I'm sort of learning as I'm going.  I'll have to look into that; it may come in very handy later on.  Thanks!



I told Opheliablue and she said that she'll help you out if you wanted to do it. She'd like to sit on the IRC Q&A sessions too  :smiley:

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## enak101

So about your reverse reality check. Is it meant to be a quick thing? I was trying to think about my impact on the universe and where I was before etc. Seemed like after a short bit I had nothing else to do. Is that normal?

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## Sageous

> So about your reverse reality check. Is it meant to be a quick thing? I was trying to think about my impact on the universe and where I was before etc. Seemed like after a short bit I had nothing else to do. Is that normal?



I'd say so.  I've been doing this for years, and my "pauses" never last much more than 20 seconds.  Short time-spans for this (and regular RC's) is probably a good thing, because if you spend too much time considering this stuff you may begin to intellectualize and attach meaning and explanations that sound good but simply never existed, which for this exercise -- and life in general -- would be a bad thing.  Oh, and standing still talking to yourself for too long is often not seen as very encouraging behavior by the folks around you...

The questions you ask in these Reverse RC's don't require answers; they need only be asked, and quietly considered for a few seconds.  It's the _wonder_ about your presence in reality that's important here, and that need only last a few seconds.  So short time on this is fine, as long as you're getting something out of it and not simply repeating rote phrases. And don't be surprised that, with practice, you'll find that "wonder" lingering long after that few seconds of pause occurred.

I hope that made sense; let me know if it did not.

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## hermine_hesse

> if you spend too much time considering this stuff you may begin to intellectualize and attach meaning and explanations that sound good but simply never existed, which for this exercise -- and life in general -- would be a bad thing.  Oh, and standing still talking to yourself for too long is often not seen as very encouraging behavior by the folks around you...



I think this is the hardest part for me.  I am quite prone to over intellectualizing things of this nature.  I think you have mentioned this techniques in other threads and I have been trying to accomplish this for some time, but always end up philosophizing about my effect on the environment rather than _wondering_ about it. The part you mentioned in the lesson about the atoms in your feet interacting with the atoms in the floor really helped me understand how this "reverse RC" works.  Yesterday, instead of asking myself questions and _thinking_ about my effect on the environment, I visualized bits of atoms coming and going from my body to the air around me.  Suddenly, I had an "Aha!" that is hard to describe.  I think I actually felt the wonder and sense of everything everything whirling about me that you describe for the first time.  In way it felt very much like lucidity hitting me in a DILD.  Now as I do the reverse RC, I try to visualize and feel my effect on the environment, rather than thinking about it and encouraging my inner monologue.

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## RareCola

> I think this is the hardest part for me.  I am quite prone to over intellectualizing things of this nature.  I think you have mentioned this techniques in other threads and I have been trying to accomplish this for some time, but always end up philosophizing about my effect on the environment rather than _wondering_ about it. The part you mentioned in the lesson about the atoms in your feet interacting with the atoms in the floor really helped me understand how this "reverse RC" works.  Yesterday, instead of asking myself questions and _thinking_ about my effect on the environment, I visualized bits of atoms coming and going from my body to the air around me.  Suddenly, I had an "Aha!" that is hard to describe.  I think I actually felt the wonder and sense of everything everything whirling about me that you describe for the first time.  In way it felt very much like lucidity hitting me in a DILD.  Now as I do the reverse RC, I try to visualize and feel my effect on the environment, rather than thinking about it and encouraging my inner monologue.



I had a similar "Aha!" moment when attempting this reverse reality check today. Kind of just stopping and thinking how present you are in the world and how everything you do is having significance to the environment. It's a pretty weird sensation to consider.

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## Sageous

Hermine_Hesse and RareCola:

That "Aha" sensation is at the core of this exercise.  It ought to feel a bit weird, even transcendental. And if you can summon that sensation during a dream, you'll not only be lucid but suddenly the "weird" bit will all make sense, because you're having it in the context of the dream -- aka your own personal reality, where everything is you and you are everything.  So it would be most helpful to have this attitude of wonder without explanation as a part of you in a dream, if only to "naturally" prevent you from intellectualizing yourself out of lucidity... It doesn't hurt in waking life, either.

In terms of WILD, this level of self-awareness should carry you through the distracting phases of sleep with ease, and enable you to create a dream once you're "in."  We'll be talking about all that later.

Nice work guys, keep it up!

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## Ctharlhie

When I did the reverse RCs today I put a MILD spin on it, I visualised myself in the place I was just in, and in the place I would next be, realising I was dreaming, stabilising, and carrying out a dream goal. Does that seem like a good idea? It's certainly been a far more memorable variant of RC than any other I've tried, I had no problem remembering to do it at least every hour and often 2-3 times in an hour.

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## enak101

Alright thanks, that helps!

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## Sageous

> When I did the reverse RCs today I put a MILD spin on it, I visualised myself in the place I was just in, and in the place I would next be, realising I was dreaming, stabilising, and carrying out a dream goal. Does that seem like a good idea? It's certainly been a far more memorable variant of RC than any other I've tried, I had no problem remembering to do it at least every hour and often 2-3 times in an hour.



In the context of what I'm teaching here, I'd say no, your MILD variant does not seem like a good idea.  I'm more interested here in getting you to understand, thoroughly, your indelible interaction with reality _as it is_-- to understand that "duality" is an intellectual term that has no real meaning, if you will. Especially in dreams.  Attaching MILD visualizations is an arguably intellectual departure from the original goal of the reverse RC. Visualizing a place where you can not be in five minutes, like a dream, is truly a departure.

But is it a _bad_ departure?  Of that I can't be sure.  If you are able to perform successful visualizations on the same schedule as a reverse RC regimen, then you're likely doing a thing that will come in very handy during your dreams.  It shows some advanced skills that you should value, and definitely not ignore.  But then again you might be trading in some self-awareness growth in the name of programming your mind for specific dreams, which could lead to false Lucids or very short LD's because yes, your dreaming mind was prepared but your waking mind (the one that matters here, especially when attempting WILDs) was not... Which BTW is a problem I've always had with MILD.

So I don't know, I guess. You're clearly doing a very clever thing, but I have to suggest that you try to stick with the simple "wondering" reverse RC exercise.  Maybe you could do both, and tell us how it worked when we actually attempt the WILDs in a couple of weeks?

Glad to know the RC variant is working regardless, though!

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## Sydney

I'm still kind of confused about the Reverse RC. So I have to sort of think about why I'm here, and how I'm impacting the world at this very moment?

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## Sageous

> I'm still kind of confused about the Reverse RC. So I have to sort of think about why I'm here, and how I'm impacting the world at this very moment?



Yup, and also about how the world is impacting you.  Don't forget that you also want to remember wher you just were, and where you will be shortly.  And don't think too hard, or try to come up with explanations; it's more about the act of wondering than it is about getting answers.

Thanks for joining the class, Sydney, and good luck! Oh, and be sure to ask again if something I said wasn't clear...

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## RareCola

> I'm still kind of confused about the Reverse RC. So I have to sort of think about why I'm here, and how I'm impacting the world at this very moment?



From what I've been doing today, I've found it's best not to really "question" anything, as you would with other methods. Questioning implies an answer, which from what Sageous has said, isn't the goal. I've just been letting my mind wander thinking about my existence in this moment and previous/future moments, then stopping myself before I start breaking down into questions and answers.

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## Sageous

^^ I couldn't have said it better myself, RareCola!

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## enak101

I like your sig picture Rarecola.

Nice explanation too.

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## Ctharlhie

> In the context of what I'm teaching here, I'd say no, your MILD variant does not seem like a good idea.  I'm more interested here in getting you to understand, thoroughly, your indelible interaction with reality _as it is_-- to understand that "duality" is an intellectual term that has no real meaning, if you will. Especially in dreams.  Attaching MILD visualizations is an arguably intellectual departure from the original goal of the reverse RC. Visualizing a place where you can not be in five minutes, like a dream, is truly a departure.
> 
> But is it a _bad_ departure?  Of that I can't be sure.  If you are able to perform successful visualizations on the same schedule as a reverse RC regimen, then you're likely doing a thing that will come in very handy during your dreams.  It shows some advanced skills that you should value, and definitely not ignore.  But then again you might be trading in some self-awareness growth in the name of programming your mind for specific dreams, which could lead to false Lucids or very short LD's because yes, your dreaming mind was prepared but your waking mind (the one that matters here, especially when attempting WILDs) was not... Which BTW is a problem I've always had with MILD.
> 
> So I don't know, I guess. You're clearly doing a very clever thing, but I have to suggest that you try to stick with the simple "wondering" reverse RC exercise.  Maybe you could do both, and tell us how it worked when we actually attempt the WILDs in a couple of weeks?
> 
> Glad to know the RC variant is working regardless, though!



Yeah I think your point about the difference in awareness is quite important, interesting what you said about it possibly inducing false lucid dreams.
Well I'll continue with reverse RCs as you described and keep up MILD on the side  :smiley:

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## Linkzelda

Pardon my ignorance, but do we post our experiences here?

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## Sageous

> Pardon my ignorance, but do we post our experiences here?



Sure, for now.   I'll be setting up a thread for posting, and discussing, experiences in a while, but I was holding off on doing so until after I reached the point where I specifically ask you guys to attempt a WILD (still a few weeks off).  I'd really like the discussion to be focused -- or at least distantly based -- on my suggestions.  

In the meantime sure, post your experiences here; seems like a good spot!  Also, as already discussed, notebooks aren't necessary for this class.

Sorry if this is confusing -- I'm apparently doing things a bit differently than normally here.  I hope that's okay.

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## RareCola

> Sure, for now.   I'll be setting up a thread for posting, and discussing, experiences in a while, but I was holding off on doing so until after I reached the point where I specifically ask you guys to attempt a WILD (still a few weeks off).  I'd really like the discussion to be focused -- or at least distantly based -- on my suggestions.  
> 
> In the meantime sure, post your experiences here; seems like a good spot!  Also, as already discussed, notebooks aren't necessary for this class.
> 
> Sorry if this is confusing -- I'm apparently doing things a bit differently than normally here.  I hope that's okay.



You're doing a great job, learning a lot already  :smiley:  Can't wait until we get into some of the deeper stuff.

I did have a question though. Now we're a few days in i'm noticing that when I do the "reverse reality check" I'm finding it hard to find new things to see how I'm impacting them and how they're impacting me. Particularly when i'm doing a similar thing to what I was when I previously done a reverse reality check. Things i've already processed begin to lose their wonder. I've remedied this in some circumstances by looking at the situation differently than before, but I see it becoming an issue further down the line in a week, two weeks, etc. What do you suggest to help with this?

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## Linkzelda

> Sure, for now.   I'll be setting up a thread for posting, and discussing, experiences in a while, but I was holding off on doing so until after I reached the point where I specifically ask you guys to attempt a WILD (still a few weeks off).  I'd really like the discussion to be focused -- or at least distantly based -- on my suggestions.  
> 
> In the meantime sure, post your experiences here; seems like a good spot!  Also, as already discussed, notebooks aren't necessary for this class.
> 
> Sorry if this is confusing -- I'm apparently doing things a bit differently than normally here.  I hope that's okay.



Oh no, it's no problem at all! I just didn't want to post in the wrong thread or anything, thank you!  :smiley:

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## Sivason

Sageous, it looks great so far. I enjoyed the read on 'reverse reality check.' I am not sure I have heard of this before. I will be adding it into my day for awhile. 






> I did have a question though. Now we're a few days in i'm noticing that when I do the "reverse reality check" I'm finding it hard to find new things to see how I'm impacting them and how they're impacting me. Particularly when i'm doing a similar thing to what I was when I previously done a reverse reality check. Things i've already processed begin to lose their wonder. I've remedied this in some circumstances by looking at the situation differently than before, but I see it becoming an issue further down the line in a week, two weeks, etc.



If you think about things in a big picture way it may help. Sageous mentions things swirling around. That describes things in the biggest (and smallest) nature. Think about how every heart beat is going on and causing the blood to swirl, how the universe is moving, and so on. I am not implying Sageous ment only things that swirl around, but those things are amazing and should hold your awe. Maybe try altering the scale or scope of how you do the 'reverse reality check' so that even if you are in the same place, doing the same thing you wonder about your existence on different level. Like at the moment my own stomach is rumbling, so it may form the core of what I may wonder at. Tomorrow maybe it would be my place as a human, and the day after my relation to some scientific thought. I really just took a paragraph to say nothing. Oh well. You had already mentioned looking at it different.
 Sageous, if I am off base I don't mind any corrections; I am unfamiliar with the technique. Thanks for teaching!

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## Sageous

^^ Sivason:

Thanks for the advice, but I'm afraid you were a bit off-base.  I'm not looking for awe with this exercise, as awe tends to belittle the self, and therefore can potentially diminish the self-awareness I'm looking to build.  Awe and wonder sound closely related, but there is a significant difference.

The wonder I'm talking about is indeed big picture, and that image of comparing your blood moving through your system to the "swirling" of the universe is a fine one, as it will cause you to wonder.  But I'm really just looking for wonder in terms of considering that _there's something real here, and you are a part of it._  Period. To me it is very important, once in the dream, to include your _self_ in awareness, since in the dream it's all you. 

Also, I should have been more clear about one thing: that swirling reality is the reality _directly around you_; for this exercise you really don't need to look much further than your own environs -- there's enough going on in them as it is, I think. Plus keep in mind that in a dream the entire universe is simply your immediate environs -- start thinking there's more during the dream and, without practice, you run the risk of losing lucidity. With practice, of course, expanding your universe with a creative thought during an LD is most excellent!  (Of course that has nothing to do with WILD)

So I'd recommend not holding too much awe in the universe (_in this exercise_ -- that stance is certainly important elsewhere, as you know), as it could cause you to hold too much awe in a dream, and thus threaten lucidity, as well as making the late phases of WILD more difficult.  Right now only the level of interaction between your self and the world and people around you is what matters.

Also, it is very important _not to intellectualize_, to give too much thought to any of this, as that might welcome answers that both are not there and that might cloud the purity of the moment.

I did like your suggestion of using things like stomach rumblings as a source for "looking around" if you're standing still; that's an interesting "change up"! But keep in mind that even if you are in the same place you can perform at least one of the tasks I noted above (know that everything you’re doing right now has an effect on everything and everyone around you, and everything and everyone around you has an effect on you ) without feeling silly, and have a genuine experience of wonder every time, even with repetition.  This is all about simply understanding that you exist, and your existence has impact -- to think too much about it, i_n this case_, might have the wrong effect.

That said, everyone be assured that Sivason's advice is very good, and should generally be heeded.  I'm just presenting something a little different that I hope will ease your way through WILD and elevate your lucid experience.  I hope you'll continue to give it a chance.

As usual, if anything I said here is unclear just ask -- I'm better at explaining what I said than I am at saying it in the first place, I think!

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## Strit

Two small questions.

I think I understand what you want us to do with the reverse RC, but i don't understand why you call it reverse RC. How is it reversed?

I find that the absolutely most difficult thing about this is to actually remember to do it. Any good ideas on this?

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## Sageous

^^ There are no small questions, Strit.





> I think I understand what you want us to do with the reverse RC, but i don't understand why you call it reverse RC. How is it reversed?



I think because a state test (RC) specifically asks the question, "is this a dream?" and the answer is based on tests like checking clocks, etc, to confirm that the world around you is or is not a dream, and it is ultimately meant to be done in the dream.  The exercise I offer basically asks, "Am I a part of this reality, and is it part of me?" regardless of whether the "reality" is a dream or waking reality, and is ultimately meant to be done in waking life.  This to me is a different enough stance to describe it as "reverse," relative to the standard RC.  

More mechanically, the _beginning_ of the pause you are taking could well be the RC itself (asking if this is a dream), and the rest is sort of confirming that this is reality and bringing you back to it in a "real" way.  That is indeed how I do them myself these days.

I suppose you could call it something like an "RC Extension," or "Derivative RC,"  but I think "Reverse" fits best, if only because it drops a slightly clearer hint into your mind when you remember to do one that you are doing something different than an RC.  Speaking of that:





> I find that the absolutely most difficult thing about this is to actually remember to do it. Any good ideas on this?



Me too.  My short-term memory is incredibly bad, especially with things like this, so I've tried many different methods over the years, from elastic bands on my wrist up to LaBerge's Personal Electronic State Tester (P.E.S.T. -- which worked very well until it broke for good a year ago).  Currently I carry a small wood fetish in my pocket at all times, and remember to do a state test + Reverse RC whenever I happen to feel it.

So there are many ways to remind yourself.  I think they have watches and iPhone apps available on line that give random alarms, if you want to buy a machine.  Asking a friend to remind you or text you now and then can work (it's an odd thing, but when given the responsibility of the task, your friend might be more reliable than you in remembering to remind you).  Setting aside a cue that recurs during your waking life is also effective, like pausing every time you hear a truck pass by, or a dog bark, or a neighbor yell at her kids, or maybe just whenever you're passing through a specific doorway in your home.  These are just a few suggestions;  there are many tricks to remind you to do what you were supposed to remember; you might just keep browsing them until you find one that works for you...oh, and be prepared to change reminders every few weeks, because you will get used to them quickly and learn to ignore their significance.

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## Sydney

I'm sorry Sageous, but the Reverse RC is still kind of confusing to me. I'm not really sure how that helps to be thinking about how yourself is a part of this world.
Sorry if I worded that weirdly; haha I'm just kinda confused.

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## RareCola

> I'm sorry Sageous, but the Reverse RC is still kind of confusing to me. I'm not really sure how that helps to be thinking about how yourself is a part of this world.
> Sorry if I worded that weirdly; haha I'm just kinda confused.



He did say you're not supposed to know how it helps! Trust him, I'm sure it'll all come together in later lessons  :smiley:

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## Sageous

> I'm sorry Sageous, but the Reverse RC is still kind of confusing to me. I'm not really sure how that helps to be thinking about how yourself is a part of this world. Sorry if I worded that weirdly; haha I'm just kinda confused.



It's okay to be confused, Sydney, especially because that means at least you're doing the checks!  In fact, confusion is not far from wonder, so that is not a very bad thing at all.

I hope you'll take RareCola's excellent advice and bear with me on this by just continuing the exercise.  It really does matter, because it helps build your self-awareness, which to me is the most important part of LD'ing.  I could be wrong, I suppose, but I don't think so. 

See, if you have strong self-awareness and really _know_, almost instinctively, that everything you do has an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an an effect on you, then when in the dreaming lucidity will be much easier to attain and to sustain, because you'll _instinctively_ know that everything in your dream is effected by you because it _all comes from you_ -- which is the very core of lucid dreaming (whew! Long sentence!  Sorry!).  

Also, the tough parts of WILD, like hypnagogic imagery or "SP," will be much easier to navigate because, if fully self-aware, you'll literally be unable to fear them because you'll _know,_ without having to think about it, that they are simply things generated by you, and not some scary outside force. 

I hope that made sense.  If not, I hope you'll trust me and give it a chance...

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## RareCola

> It's okay to be confused, Sydney, especially because that means at least you're doing the checks!  In fact, confusion is not far from wonder, so that is not a very bad thing at all.
> 
> I hope you'll take RareCola's excellent advice and bear with me on this by just continuing the exercise.  It really does matter, because it helps build your self-awareness, which to me is the most important part of LD'ing.  I could be wrong, I suppose, but I don't think so. 
> 
> See, if you have strong self-awareness and really _know_, almost instinctively, that everything you do has an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an an effect on you, then when in the dreaming lucidity will be much easier to attain and to sustain, because you'll _instinctively_ know that everything in your dream is effected by you because it _all comes from you_ -- which is the very core of lucid dreaming (whew! Long sentence!  Sorry!).  
> 
> Also, the tough parts of WILD, like hypnagogic imagery or "SP," will be much easier to navigate because, if fully self-aware, you'll literally be unable to fear them because you'll _know,_ without having to think about it, that they are simply things generated by you, and not some scary outside force. 
> 
> I hope that made sense.  If not, I hope you'll trust me and give it a chance...



I think this will definitely help me a lot. In my lucid dreams I always tend to "slip out" of the lucidity because I seemingly forget that it's a dream and get carried away in myself. Knowing instinctively that it's all a dream definitely seems like a great idea.

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## Sydney

Thanks Sageous.  :smiley:  Yeah, I think I'm thinking about this too much! I'll stick with, I guess, my confusion. Maybe it'll click in a few days.  :smiley:

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## Sageous

> Thanks Sageous.  Yeah, I think I'm thinking about this too much! I'll stick with, I guess, my confusion. Maybe it'll click in a few days.



That's nice to hear, Sydney.  Hang in there, and let it click when it does!  I won't tell you how long it took me...

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## Sivason

> ^^ So I'd recommend not holding too much awe in the universe (_in this exercise_ -- that stance is certainly important elsewhere, as you know), as it could cause you to hold too much awe in a dream, and thus threaten lucidity, as well as making the late phases of WILD more difficult.  Right now only the level of interaction between your self and the world and people around you is what matters.
> 
> Also, it is very important _not to intellectualize_, to give too much thought to any of this, as that might welcome answers that both are not there and that might cloud the purity of the moment.




Excellent! Thanks for the clarificationns. It makes a lot of sense. I had started off with a little misunderstanding, and that clarifies it. Thanks. 

Awe in the dream? Wow. Good point, one I never really concidered yet. New ideas! Great!


...Oh, and I will give a heart felt second to Sageous' comment "It really does matter, because it helps build your self-awareness, which to me is the most important part of LD'ing." Self awareness is step one and should not be under explored.

----------


## enak101

Is a good way to do it, to visualize it as something simple like everything and everyone being made of dust or little particles and they all flow around freely through everything, that way you can know what you're affecting and what is affecting you or is it more of a general questioning of what is going on with you and existence? I think I have the basic premise down and I just have to remember to do it more.

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## Sageous

Yes, you clearly have the basic premise down (and yes indeedy try to remember to do it more!), and your dust metaphor seems like it might work nicely, but can I suggest adding another dimension to it?  As you imagine those little particles, maybe also imagine the "little" thoughts or actions made by you and those around you, and think about what they have to do with each other. That way you won't fall into an existential trap of eventually assuming that we're all just a bunch of particles being blown about by forces (like the Wind) completely outside of you and beyond your control.  The little thoughts bit adds import to your "swirling," I think, without really messing up your image.  I hope that helped!

And yes, your dust image is probably more to my point than not, because you really want to avoid "general questioning of what is going on with you and existence," as that implies a vastness that will dwarf your sense of self come dreamtime, and that is exactly what you do not want to happen if you want to be lucid. I want you to try to think more locally than universally -- and your dust image does that nicely!

----------


## Sageous

While I was answering enak101's question I had the following thought.  It had nothing really to do with his question, but I thought it might be worth sharing:

I know I keep harping on this, and will continue to do so, but it is a central theme both to my class and my view of WILD:  Try to think of this Reverse RC (can I call it RRC yet? are we ready for another acronym?) as a flexing of your _sentience_ muscles, or perhaps as refining your sense of position in your little corner of the world.  It's as simple and local as that. Yes, it's a wholistic attitude, but there's no need to include the whole universe in your RRC's up to three times an hour, as things can get very crowded.

...just a thought.

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## DinoSawr

Hi Sageous!

I had a lucid dream this morning that lasted a few minutes, and I definitely think that self-awareness is the key like you said. The dream was most vivid when I felt my body with my hands to get a sense of myself, but the dream got fuzzy when I tried to rush ahead and subsequently lost focus of myself. Thanks for all the information you have shared so far, as I think it is making a difference.

I do have a question for you though: After you establish your sense of location and sense within the dream, do you ever have to remind yourself of your place in the dream, or is it easy to go on without losing this sense?

Thanks

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## Linkzelda

I was doing my daily attempts with the CANWILD technique, and I woke up to the alarm I had set up to use as an anchor to prepare for a WILD. Everything was perfect, kept my eyes closed, remained still, but the challenge for me was that I was a bit too tired to become conscious for too long.

Actually, I take that back, I was conscious the whole time, but I had some difficulty just trying to think about some basic thoughts. I tried telling to myself, "I'm awake! I'm awake! I'm awake!" but I couldn't find myself to be concentrated long enough before thinking that I would have to wake up early anyway.

I guess I have to work on the visualization more, or at least do an autosuggestion where I remind myself to imagine a dream scene when I wake up from the alarm.

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## Sageous

> Hi Sageous!
> 
> I had a lucid dream this morning that lasted a few minutes, and I definitely think that self-awareness is the key like you said. The dream was most vivid when I felt my body with my hands to get a sense of myself, but the dream got fuzzy when I tried to rush ahead and subsequently lost focus of myself. Thanks for all the information you have shared so far, as I think it is making a difference.



That's good news, glad to hear it!





> I do have a question for you though: After you establish your sense of location and sense within the dream, do you ever have to remind yourself of your place in the dream, or is it easy to go on without losing this sense?
> Thanks



Good question. Yes, if your self-awareness is strong in a dream, the struggle to maintain waking awareness is minimized -- It is still there, but not much of a problem.  As a matter of (anecdotal) fact, after you make self- awareness an integral part of waking life, you may find that it is present in most if not all of your dreams: in other words you will know _innately_ that this place you are in is a dream, and waking awareness is always just a decison away. In a sense, you'll potentially have a very low-level of lucidity going on all the time.  Don't expect that right away, mind you, such a state might only come after years of practice! 

Also, keep in mind that you are not reminding yourself of your place in the dream as much as you are reminding yourself that the dream is your place...it is you.  There'll be more on that later, when we talk about the final stage of WILD.

----------


## Sageous

> I was doing my daily attempts with the CANWILD technique, and I woke up to the alarm I had set up to use as an anchor to prepare for a WILD. Everything was perfect, kept my eyes closed, remained still, but the challenge for me was that I was a bit too tired to become conscious for too long.
> 
> Actually, I take that back, I was conscious the whole time, but I had some difficulty just trying to think about some basic thoughts. I tried telling to myself, "I'm awake! I'm awake! I'm awake!" but I couldn't find myself to be concentrated long enough before thinking that I would have to wake up early anyway.



It is a very good idea to be sure you have enough time available for complete dreaming sessions, to prevent this sort of thing from happening -- that'll be noted in this Tuesday's session, as a matter of fact.





> I guess I have to work on the visualization more, or at least do an autosuggestion where I remind myself to imagine a dream scene when I wake up from the alarm.



Later, we'll be talking about mantras and visualization-related mental prep meant to help you assemble a dream during WILD; I think you might find those sessions helpful.

----------


## Sivason

Any ideas on why only a few WILD attempts work, even when everything seems to go right? Just a general question, it may not be time to ask general questions, but if so, let the question simmer for awhile and I will ask again another time. Last night I did WBTB. Every state evolved correctly and I fell asleep in a few minutes. I chanted mantras in my sleep, I examined my sensory awareness in my sleep, I enjoyed fantastic and interesting HIs. I had to shift a bit as I WILD on my back so I snuck enough awareness to peak at the clock. Thirty minutes, then next time 1.5 hours. I finally gave in and moved to a side position and lost awareness. 
I do not expect an answer, but just if you shared your opinion it may help. Everything was in place, but 1.5 hours and no REM even though I waited for an interrupted REM cycle to begin.
I must confess that prior to bed I had 2 glasses of wine, do you have any opinion on how much the wine may have messed this up?

----------


## Ctharlhie

> Any ideas on why only a few WILD attempts work, even when everything seems to go right? Just a general question, it may not be time to ask general questions, but if so, let the question simmer for awhile and I will ask again another time. Last night I did WBTB. Every state evolved correctly and I fell asleep in a few minutes. I chanted mantras in my sleep, I examined my sensory awareness in my sleep, I enjoyed fantastic and interesting HIs. I had to shift a bit as I WILD on my back so I snuck enough awareness to peak at the clock. Thirty minutes, then next time 1.5 hours. I finally gave in and moved to a side position and lost awareness. 
> I do not expect an answer, but just if you shared your opinion it may help. Everything was in place, but 1.5 hours and no REM even though I waited for an interrupted REM cycle to begin.
> I must confess that prior to bed I had 2 glasses of wine, do you have any opinion on how much the wine may have messed this up?



Well alcohol inhibits REM sleep for a start  :smiley:

----------


## Sydney

Hey Sageous, I have a couple of questions.  :tongue2: 
This was taken from a post I did a couple of minutes ago in the WILD forum of DV:





> Hi all. Last night I tried to WILD, after a long time; about 2 months or so. I got up (naturally) for WBTB I think a little too late (about 7 hours). I then went to the bathroom and got back in bed. I layed on my back with my arms at my sides. I then just focused on not letting my mind wander too much. After a minute or so, I started to focus on the sound of my fan blowing. I did this until I got really uncomfortable (about 5-7 minutes in), but tried to bear with it. Eventually I don't know what happened. I think I fell asleep, but I woke up for the day in the same position. I was really stiff, so I hadn't moved. Just thought I would add that bit in.
> 
> I guess I need help with being focused. Any tips?
> Oh and also, how long does it usually take you to transition? I've never gone through the transition, actually only once. But it was so hazy.
> 
> Oh and, any tips on how I can form my WILDing technique into something more helpful? (ie, something that'll boost the success of my WILD)
> 
> Thanks!



I'm confused on how it didn't work - but I think the late WBTB is what caused it. Do you know what could have happened?
Sorry.... I'm just desperate for some answers. I'm ready to get WILDing  :smiley:

----------


## Sageous

Sivason and Sydney:

Okay, here's the thing:  

I assume that you are attending this class because you either do not know how to do a WILD, or think you know but can't seem to get them to work.  If you are already proficient at WILD'ing, then I imagine you would not be here.  So I have to ask: why are you attempting WILD's when we've only completed one brief session, and haven't even started talking about WILD's themselves yet, much less how to do them? 

That to me doesn't make sense.  I highly recommend that you give my course a chance, be patient, and let me try to lay out for you a route to successful WILD'ing.... that's why I'm doing this.  I even more highly recommend that you do not do any WILD's_ at all_ until we get to the point in the class where it makes sense to do so.  We will reach that point soon enough, and when we do I'll set up a separate thread dedicated to discussion and examination of your attempts.  Attempting WILD at this point is like a flight student stealing the plane and attempting to solo before he's even been instructed on taxiing; that is never a good thing.  Please be patient, guys;  by the time we get to actual WILD attempts you'll likely be able to answer all the questions you asked today yourselves.  That, I thought, was the point of the course.

So for now, if anyone must attempt WILD's before we've reached that point in the course, please don't tell me you tried, or ask for advice on them here.  There are about 19 gazillion threads on this site alone offering advice on failed WILD's to people who have not learned how to do them.  Go there.  My goal here is to teach you how to do WILD, and I really must do so one step at a time, and not by answering questions relating to things I haven't even told you yet.  I hope you understand.

That said...

*Sivason:*  The simple answer to your question is that WILD's are not easy.  There are many factors that must go right for them to work, and one or two factors are regularly missed -- even by experts.  I spotted three in your post offhand: Timing, attention, and physical prep.  We're talking about timing on Tuesday, so you'll likely get an answer about that bit then; yes, that simple glance at the clock may have been enough to totally screw you up because any lapse in attention could blow the whole session -- and the lapse was not the _glance_ at the clock, but the _thought_ that generated the glance; finally, yes, alcohol can effect REM, so it's not a great idea to imbibe the night before a session.  

*Sydney:*  I highly recommend that you try to be patient and follow the course. It will answer all of your questions in due time, and tell you things you hadn't thought to ask; please give it a chance.  For instance, WILD's can take a very long time to finish -- sometimes I'm "still" for well over an hour before I get in or give up.  An important detail like that will definitely be talked about, along with tips on how to stay focused if things go long.  I understand that you're excited and want to get at it, but this is a very difficult technique, especially when done incorrectly.  Again, please be patient. 


*Bottom line/tl;dr:* I really want to address everything in an order that works best for all of us, and it is simply not time to advise on your WILD attempts yet. When WILD time comes, and it will, I'll address all I can, with interest.  I hope you understand.  I also hope you are able to be patient and put off any attempts -- even if you are sure you know how to WILD -- until we get to the "attempt" part.  You likely will not regret it.

Thanks for your patience!

----------


## RareCola

> Sivason and Sydney:
> 
> Okay, here's the thing:  
> 
> I assume that you are attending this class because you either do not know how to do a WILD, or think you know but can't seem to get them to work.  If you are already proficient at WILD'ing, then I imagine you would not be here.  So I have to ask: why are you attempting WILD's when we've only completed one brief session, and haven't even started talking about WILD's themselves yet, much less how to do them? 
> 
> That to me doesn't make sense.  I highly recommend that you give my course a chance, be patient, and let me try to lay out a route to successful WILD'ing.... that's why I'm doing this.  I even more highly recommend that you do not do any WILD's_ at all_ until we get to the point in the class where it makes sense to do so.  We will reach that point soon enough, and when we do I'll set up a separate thread dedicated to discussion and examination of your attempts.  Attempting WILD at this point is like a flight student stealing the plane and attempting to solo before he's even been instructed on taxiing; that is never a good thing.  Please be patient, guys;  by the time we get to actual WILD attempts you'll likely be able to answer all the questions you asked today yourselves.  That, I thought, was the point of the course.
> 
> So for now, if anyone must attempt WILD's before we've reached that point in the course, please don't tell me you tried, or ask for advice on them here.  There are about 19 gazillion threads on this site alone offering advice on failed WILD's to people who have not learned how to do them.  Go there.  My goal here is to teach you how to do WILD, and I really must do so one step at a time, and not by answering questions relating to things I haven't even told you yet.
> ...



I'm glad you brought this up and I particularly like your "flight student stealing the plane and attempting to solo before he's even been instructed on taxiing" analogy. Sometimes I fear people forget that lucid dreaming is a skill, and like any skill getting ahead of yourself before learning the basics is silly and not going to get you anywhere!

Back on topic though. Today I've noticed that, since getting into the habit of performing the RRC every hour, I'm starting to naturally have moments where I get this same "awe" feeling in my surroundings. Just a short while ago I was slicing an apple and even something as simple as that I was habitually observing it that I was bending the world around me as I split apart the atoms making up the apple. Interesting how your perspective changes.

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## Sageous

> Today I've noticed that, since getting into the habit of performing the RRC every hour, I'm starting to naturally have moments where I get this same "awe" feeling in my surroundings. Just a short while ago I was slicing an apple and even something as simple as that I was habitually observing it that I was bending the world around me as I split apart the atoms making up the apple. Interesting how your perspective changes.



It is interesting, isn't it?  Nice to see that the RRC is working well for you, and indeed seems to be putting your self-awareness into a very good place. Just be sure you keep doing the RRC's anyway, as things tend to fade, or, worse, become ignored habit...

Also... for our purposes here, be sure you're careful not to get caught up in the "awe" part -- you must always remember that your involvement in your neighborhood of reality is just as awesome as any other part of it.  As you noted, it's the interaction that matters, not the complexity!  It doesn't seem that you are having that problem yourself, but I still felt it needed to be mentioned.

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## RareCola

> It is interesting, isn't it?  Nice to see that the RRC is working well for you, and indeed seems to be putting your self-awareness into a very good place. Just be sure you keep doing the RRC's anyway, as things tend to fade, or, worse, become ignored habit...



Oh, of course. I read your advice earlier in the thread about attaching the RRC onto your normal RCs. It's a nice extension to "solidify" your place in reality after initially questioning your reality. I'd assume this would help in dreams too, once reality checking in a dream and becoming lucid, then reverse reality checking to truly understand what it means to be in a dream.

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## Sageous

> Oh, of course. I read your advice earlier in the thread about attaching the RRC onto your normal RCs. It's a nice extension to "solidify" your place in reality after initially questioning your reality. I'd assume this would help in dreams too, once reality checking in a dream and becoming lucid, then reverse reality checking to truly understand what it means to be in a dream.



You assumed right; nice observation as well, thanks!

----------


## Sydney

> *Sydney:*  I highly recommend that you try to be patient and follow the course. It will answer all of your questions in due time, and tell you things you hadn't thought to ask; please give it a chance.  For instance, WILD's can take a very long time to finish -- sometimes I'm "still" for well over an hour before I get in or give up.  An important detail like that will definitely be talked about, along with tips on how to stay focused if things go long.  I understand that you're excited and want to get at it, but this is a very difficult technique, especially when done incorrectly.  Again, please be patient. 
> 
> *Bottom line/tl;dr:* I really want to address everything in an order that works best for all of us, and it is simply not time to advise on your WILD attempts yet. When WILD time comes, and it will, I'll address all I can, with interest.  I hope you understand.  I also hope you are able to be patient and put off any attempts -- even if you are sure you know how to WILD -- until we get to the "attempt" part.  You likely will not regret it.
> 
> Thanks for your patience!



I'm sorry Sageous. I shouldn't have gotten ahead of myself - I should have been patient. Thanks for that post - it give me a "reality check" that I should be learning the basics before getting into the actual attempt. Thanks again, and I can't wait for the rest of the course!  :smiley:

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## Ctharlhie

On my recent experiences and meditation,
My awareness seems more supple, that is, plastic, something I can mold based on the situation, it seems like it is more my own choice how I react to situations that occur in my day-to-day life. When I am overcome by a particular motion, there still remains some element that is external, observant and aware.
This seems to arise from my efforts to remain aware not just from sensory inputs, but importantly from remaining awareness of the fact that my experience creates the world I perceive (or rather, vice versa).

The practice of reverse RC has though revealed just why you are not a fan of meditation. I have found that the rigours and dogma of meditation have taken precedent, not just over the induction of lucidity, but even over effective meditative practise. It's not that meditation and the concomitant benefits aren't desirable (I greatly admire the buddhist lifestyle), it's just that the buddhist practice takes priority over all other concerns and is not directly fostering of lucidity in dreams. Steadily my practices have become 'all about technique again', induction rate, and even recall, has plummeted.
So through my own blunders I have arrived at the conclusion you were telling me all along.  ::lol::

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## Taffy

Not sure if I'm using the RRC correctly. I think about my place in the world and how I affect others as well as how others affect me, but I never get that "aha!" moment others in this thread say they have. Maybe it just comes with time?

----------


## Ctharlhie

> Not sure if I'm using the RRC correctly. I think about my place in the world and how I affect others as well as how others affect me, but I never get that "aha!" moment others in this thread say they have. Maybe it just comes with time?



Definitely comes with time. I've been practising day time awareness and dream yoga for months and only relatively recently have I 'got it'. And getting it is just the starting point, when you get it you realise exactly what you're aiming for, you also realise it's some distance off from where you are right now.
Then again I wasn't following a Sageous led class in all those prior months.

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## RareCola

> Not sure if I'm using the RRC correctly. I think about my place in the world and how I affect others as well as how others affect me, but I never get that "aha!" moment others in this thread say they have. Maybe it just comes with time?



Personally, I got it when thinking about how prominent I am in the world. Just by "being" you're doing so many things. The air around you is flowing with your movement, you're breathing and exhaling it. I imagine the air as atoms and envision it flowing as I move and how it affects me and how I affect it. You're blocking light and creating shadows with your body. And there are so many more things you can look at. Of course, though, I'm not a master at this by any stretch so it may be best to wait until Sageous replies before taking my word for it.

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## TheGrimRose

> Personally, I got it when thinking about how prominent I am in the world. Just by "being" you're doing so many things. The air around you is flowing with your movement, you're breathing and exhaling it. I imagine the air as atoms and envision it flowing as I move and how it affects me and how I affect it. You're blocking light and creating shadows with your body. And there are so many more things you can look at. Of course, though, I'm not a master at this by any stretch so it may be best to wait until Sageous replies before taking my word for it.



It's weird because literally right before I went onto my computer to check the forums and Q and A, I performed a reverse reality check. I thought of how I affect everything around me and literally thought of the same thing you just stated, without reading it or hearing anything of the sort ever. I thought of all the air coming in and out as i breathe. I also put my hand up to the window creating a shadow i saw and thought about how that shadow changes the environment around me and I have never even realized it before. This really is crazy how I thought of the same exact thing you stated without ever reading about it or seeing it before.

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## Sageous

> Not sure if I'm using the RRC correctly. I think about my place in the world and how I affect others as well as how others affect me, but I never get that "aha!" moment others in this thread say they have. Maybe it just comes with time?



Don't be concerned about "aha" moments, Taffy; nothing singularly important or enlightening need happen to you during RRC's.  If "aha" moments _do_ happen, that's most excellent, but the RRC is meant as a simple tool to help build your self-awareness to better prepare you for WILD and LD'ing in general.

So keep them up, and simply try to periodically consider where you just were, where you're going to be soon, and where you are right now taking special care throughout to wonder about that effect you have on everything, and it on you.  Don't expect anything big to happen -- that is a possible side-effect, and not the purpose of this exercise.

----------


## Sageous

> Personally, I got it when thinking about how prominent I am in the world. Just by "being" you're doing so many things. The air around you is flowing with your movement, you're breathing and exhaling it. I imagine the air as atoms and envision it flowing as I move and how it affects me and how I affect it. You're blocking light and creating shadows with your body. And there are so many more things you can look at. Of course, though, I'm not a master at this by any stretch so it may be best to wait until Sageous replies before taking my word for it.



A quick warning, RareCola (and any others here who share his results):

You seem to be advancing nicely in this technique,* but you must be careful not to put too much importance on the "nature" portion of the RRC pause*.  

Sure, the nature portion of the RRC matters, especially in the early phases of your WILD's, and should be included -- it also sets the mood in a concrete way for further wonder. But if you put too much emphasis on your physical body's participation in the world around you, you run the risk of creating expectations of physical conditions within your LD _which do not exist._

I'm concerned that I might have led a few of you a bit off the path.  The RRC pause is essentially a moment for you to remember _your_ interaction with reality, and that "_your_" includes your consciousness, your spirit, your _sentience_ -- the very important bits of _you_ that have little to do with nature.  Indeed, the "self" in self-awareness is just that, and it is _not_ your physical body. That's why I asked you to also wonder about your interactions with other _people_ as well as other _stuff_.  

Remember that there is no physical body in dreams, so there is little need to elevate its import in the RRC.  Sure, it matters, and its the thing that's carrying your self from place to place and person to person, but in this context it is _what your mind is telling it to do_ that matters more than what nature is doing to it.  

Once more: to elevate the natural stuff going on around you above the activities of the conscious stuff that is going on within you could cause a real problem when you LD, simply because you might find yourself elevating the environs of the dream into something "real" over which you have no control, which could cause you to forget that that dream world _is you,_ and in no way a product of nature... which would in turn put a real damper on your lucidity.  So when you do RRC's (or RC's in general), try to find a balance that favors your mental and spiritual self over your physical body.

So what you're doing isn't wrong -- indeed, from a meditation standpoint I would imagine you're doing great!  But for our purposes I hope you'll try to understand and try to get your entire self caught up in your RRC's.

I hope that made sense.  If not, please ask again -- this is important.

----------


## RareCola

> A quick warning, RareCola (and any others here who share his results):
> 
> You seem to be advancing nicely in this technique,* but you must be careful not to put too much importance on the "nature" portion of the RRC pause*.  
> 
> Sure, the nature portion of the RRC matters, especially in the early phases of your WILD's, and should be included -- it also sets the mood in a concrete way for further wonder. But if you put too much emphasis on your physical body's participation in the world around you, you run the risk of creating expectations of physical conditions within your LD _which do not exist._
> 
> I'm concerned that I might have led a few of you a bit off the path.  The RRC pause is essentially a moment for you to remember _your_ interaction with reality, and that "_your_" includes your consciousness, your spirit, your _sentience_ -- the very important bits of _you_ that have little to do with nature.  Indeed, the "self" in self-awareness is just that, and it is _not_ your physical body. That's why I asked you to also wonder about your interactions with other _people_ as well as other _stuff_.  
> 
> Remember that there is no physical body in dreams, so there is little need to elevate its import in the RRC.  Sure, it matters, and its the thing that's carrying your self from place to place and person to person, but in this context it is _what your mind is telling it to do_ that matters more than what nature is doing to it.  
> ...



Thanks for the advice! I understand what you're saying, only could you give some examples of what you do just to be sure?

----------


## Sageous

> Thanks for the advice! I understand what you're saying, only could you give some examples of what you do just to be sure?



Of course...in fact, I was just about to edit my last post with this thought, so I'll throw it in here first:

The RRC is not about drawing conclusions, or imagining the import of what is going on around you -- it is all about simply acknowledging that something is going on around you, at all times, and you (meaning _all_ of your body, mind, and spirit) are involved.  At all times.

Now...

What do _I_ do?  Pretty much exactly as the RRC is described in the session.  But here, let me try to give you an example of what _happens_ with me when I do a RRC:

As often as I can remember to do so (I have no set schedule, but it seems to be about once an hour, sometimes more), I simply stop whatever I'm doing and ask a version of those three questions.  I don't use the words any more, but instead very quickly remind myself where I just was, where I'll be soon, and what I'm doing right now. 

*Then I simply wonder*: I wonder about the impact all this has on me, my world immediately around me, including anyone I might be with.  And vise-versa. How? I guess I try to pry open the gates of my mind, just for a few seconds, and let the world I'm living in wander freely through it, forming a reminder that I am a part of it, and it of me.  

_I only open the gates_, though; I offer myself no explanation for what I feel or remember, and try not to imagine things that I know are not there -- this is not a state test for the _power_ of self; it is a state test for the _presence_ of self; it is extremely important not to add concepts or intellectualizations to the moment of the test.  

Finally I gather myself and move on.  These days the entire pause lasts just a few seconds, unless I'm involved in an argument with someone, or perhaps working on a trying art project or a particularly difficult bit of writing -- then I let the moment linger, perhaps for inspiration, or for the calming sensation it offers, or just so I don't have to go back to arguing or work for just a moment more.

What does all this look like physically, from someone else's point of view?  Pretty much nothing at all -- I rarely even stand still during an RRC pause anymore, and only my wife really notices when I'm in the middle of one.  So all I "do" is hold mentally still for a moment, eyes open or closed, standing, walking, lying down, or sitting, and just _wonder_.

I know it doesn't sound like much to describe but you know what? In the end an RRC shouldn't be much...that may be its whole point!


P.S.  Keep in mind that this is only how I do an RRC... it does not need to be the way you do it.  All that really matters is asking the questions, remembering your self, and wondering about it all...

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## RareCola

> Of course...in fact, I was just about to edit my last post with this thought, so I'll throw it in here first:
> 
> The RRC is not about drawing conclusions, or imagining the import of what is going on around you -- it is all about simply acknowledging that something is going on around you, at all times, and you (meaning _all_ of your body, mind, and spirit) are involved.  At all times.
> 
> Now...
> 
> What do _I_ do?  Pretty much exactly as the RRC is described in the session.  But here, let me try to give you an example of what _happens_ with me when I do a RRC:
> 
> As often as I can remember to do so (I have no set schedule, but it seems to be about once an hour, sometimes more), I simply stop whatever I'm doing and ask a version of those three questions.  I don't use the words any more, but instead very quickly remind myself where I just was, where I'll be soon, and what I'm doing right now. 
> ...



Alright I think I've pretty much got it down, I especially liked the "this is not a state test for the power of self; it is a state test for the presence of self". I need to remember that. The only thing I think I'm having problems with is how my presence affects other people and how they affect me, i'll need to work on that one.

Thanks for taking your time to elaborate! Much appreciated.

----------


## Sageous

> Alright I think I've pretty much got it down, I especially liked the "this is not a state test for the power of self; it is a state test for the presence of self". I need to remember that. The only thing I think I'm having problems with is how my presence affects other people and how they affect me, i'll need to work on that one.
> 
> Thanks for taking your time to elaborate! Much appreciated.



That's great, and happy to help!

*And for all of you:* rest assured that I'm doing this for a reason, and it'll all be clear later.  Thanks for keeping up the effort!

----------


## Highlander

Hi Sageous & good luck with the class.

Hope you don't mind me lurking about here. I would participate only I have had to put the practicing of LD onto the back burner for the short forseeable future due to stress and bereavement issues.  :Sad: 

Regards Robstar.

----------


## Sageous

> Hi Sageous & good luck with the class.
> 
> Hope you don't mind me lurking about here. I would participate only I have had to put the practicing of LD onto the back burner for the short forseeable future due to stress and bereavement issues. 
> 
> Regards Robstar.



Lurk away, Robstar, and thanks for paying what attention you can during your difficult time.

----------


## TheGrimRose

Okay so basically to clear things up for me, nature should be somewhat part of a RCC but not be the main focus. It should be more about how there is an equal impact of the presence of your own triangle of life (mind, body, and spirit) that impacts everything around you and how you, yourself, is present in it. Am I right? And that is why you wonder about your impact on everything else and how the different parts of your triangle of life effect all that surrounds you. I may be wording this weird but just trying to wrap my head around this concept hahah. Hope I am not a bother to you and take up too much time. 

And for my RRC, I made a phrase: I was there, will be there, and am here now (i dont actually say 'there' but replace it with the thoughts of where I was and where i'll be). I then try to open my mind up to everything that is around me and wonder about how the world is a part of me as much as I am a part of the world.

Would this be an effective RCC in your eyes. Any critiquing would be greatly appreciated. Thanks soo much once again  ::D:

----------


## Sageous

> Okay so basically to clear things up for me, nature should be somewhat part of a RCC but not be the main focus.



Yup.





> It should be more about how there is an equal impact of the presence of your own triangle of life (mind, body, and spirit) that impacts everything around you and how you, yourself, is present in it. Am I right?



Yes, you are!





> And that is why you wonder about your impact on everything else and how the different parts of your triangle of life effect all that surrounds you. I may be wording this weird but just trying to wrap my head around this concept.



 Yup again.  Careful about that word, "wonder," though: don't attach too much credence to the word itself.  It should mean no more than a simple open-minded consideration of your presence in your world... literally "wonder."  I know I know: _now_ I mention that!





> And for my RRC, I made a phrase: I was there, will be there, and am here now (i dont actually say 'there' but replace it with the thoughts of where I was and where i'll be). I then try to open my mind up to everything that is around me and wonder about how the world is a part of me as much as I am a part of the world.
> 
> Would this be an effective RCC in your eyes. Any critiquing would be greatly appreciated. Thanks soo much once again



 That seems like a good RRC, as long as you are sure to consider all three phases (past/future, now) clearly.  The rest is excellent!

----------


## Taffy

> Don't be concerned about "aha" moments, Taffy; nothing singularly important or enlightening need happen to you during RRC's.  If "aha" moments _do_ happen, that's most excellent, but the RRC is meant as a simple tool to help build your self-awareness to better prepare you for WILD and LD'ing in general.
> 
> So keep them up, and simply try to periodically consider where you just were, where you're going to be soon, and where you are right now taking special care throughout to wonder about that effect you have on everything, and it on you.  Don't expect anything big to happen -- that is a possible side-effect, and not the purpose of this exercise.



Great, I'll keep practicing.  :smiley:

----------


## Sageous

Just letting you all know that Session #2 - Timing, has been posted.

Before you know it, we'll actually be doing WILD's!

----------


## Taffy

I always stayed up for a really short time before attempting WILD, maybe I needed to stay up longer. I'll work on waking up naturally for now, though.

----------


## paigeyemps

I just finished reading Session #2!

Wow, thank you so much for emphasizing the importance of timing. I knew that it was important, but I never really thought much about it before, especially the technical side of it. I've been doing WBTB (+MILD) ever since, and I've always relied on an alarm to wake me up in the middle of the night since I am a very heavy sleeper. I'm fairly used to it already, however since I'm trying to learn more about WILD, I will try to change it up a bit. 

And waddya know! My classes just ended today! Which means more time for practice!  ::D:  I will get rid of my alarms for now, keep studying my sleeping patterns, and try my best to determine the ideal time for me to wake up naturally in the middle of the night. I've also been practicing the RRC, and I find it very easy to remember to do them since I've sorta been doing ADA -- the only thing I need to learn now is the self-awareness part of it which I'm starting to understand and carry out  :smiley:

----------


## RareCola

Yay for session 2!

I've too been using an alarm to wake me up for my WBTB, I've already been thinking about cutting it out because of how much it shocks me awake though. This basically just confirmed that for me. From what I've already discovered I think a good time for my WBTB is roughly between 5hrs and 5hrs30m after going to sleep, but I really need to figure that out. Sometimes I wake up and I'm way too tired.

As for what to do during the WBTB. I tend to get up, use the bathroom, grab a drink of water and then either chill out in bed visualising or reading a book (though not one about dreaming). Would it matter to read a book other than one that's about dreaming? I always read at bed time anyway so it's not exactly a "day time activity" for me.

Also, how about checking DreamViews, for example? It ticks the dreaming mindset by reading it, but I fear looking at a screen may be detrimental.

What about minimum time to stay up? I noticed you mentioned maximum time, but I didn't see a minimum.

----------


## Ctharlhie

I know exactly what you mean about alarm clocks 'shocking' you awake. Hell, my alarm shocks me awake in the morning, let alone during WBTB.

However, I've been unsuccessful in convincing myself to recognise my brief awakenings in the past and when I have been successful I woke constantly through the night, leading to poor sleep. I'm a very heavy sleeper.

----------


## RareCola

> I know exactly what you mean about alarm clocks 'shocking' you awake. Hell, my alarm shocks me awake in the morning, let alone during WBTB.
> 
> However, I've been unsuccessful in convincing myself to recognise my brief awakenings in the past and when I have been successful I woke constantly through the night, leading to poor sleep. I'm a very heavy sleeper.



I had this issue for ages, I eventually found a "I wake up after each of my dreams" mantra to help a lot. I even extended it to "I wake up after each of my dreams and recall them perfectly". Maybe try something like that out?

----------


## Sageous

> As for what to do during the WBTB. I tend to get up, use the bathroom, grab a drink of water and then either chill out in bed visualising or reading a book (though not one about dreaming). Would it matter to read a book other than one that's about dreaming? I always read at bed time anyway so it's not exactly a "day time activity" for me.



Sure, reading something else is fine...but you might want to make sure it isn't something that works your mind too much. If it's not a dream-related book, I would stick to something like simple fiction.





> Also, how about checking DreamViews, for example? It ticks the dreaming mindset by reading it, but I fear looking at a screen may be detrimental.



 All apologies to the DV guys, but going on the site, _or any site_, might not be a good idea.  This is for a couple of reasons, the primary one being just what you said: turning on that computer/pad/phone alone starts firing neurons meant for waking life, and you might not be able to shut them off.  In other words, yeah, just looking at that screen might be enough to shelf your dreaming mind for the day.  Also, reading DV itself could cause some problems in the form of distraction -- you might, for instance, start reading someone else's DJ and lose complete track of the dreams you were just having, or, worse, you might get involved in a thread about, say, the problems with WILD, and hand yourself those problems by the sheer strength of suggestion.  There are more reasons, but I think you get the idea -- the internet is a mental engine on its own, and connecting to it might interrupt the performance of your own mental engine in terms of dreaming.





> What about minimum time to stay up? I noticed you mentioned maximum time, but I didn't see a minimum.



I don't think there is a minimum, as long as you rouse yourself enough to step out of bed, if only for a quick trip to the bathroom.  The important thing is to wake up for a bit, just to gather your waking consciousness for your upcoming trip into WILDland.  If you can gather it quickly, that's just fine!  

Stepping out of bed is important though, because it can be very easy to sleepily say, "No problem, I'm awake; I'll just stay right here where it's warm," only to fall right back to sleep before having a chance to start WILD.  (As I mentioned in the session, there is an exception to this, in the form of DEILD, which we'll talk about should we get to it).

----------


## Sageous

> I know exactly what you mean about alarm clocks 'shocking' you awake. Hell, my alarm shocks me awake in the morning, let alone during WBTB.
> 
> However, I've been unsuccessful in convincing myself to recognise my brief awakenings in the past and when I have been successful I woke constantly through the night, leading to poor sleep. I'm a very heavy sleeper.



That is a problem.  I can think of a few solutions off-hand, which  I'm guessing you have already considered:

First, they do make "gentle" alarm clocks designed to wake deep sleepers gradually... I guess if you have to be woken up by a machine, at least you can have it happen as gently as possible.  

If there is someone else in your house who is a lighter sleep than you, you might convince them to waken you at a time you think best...this doesn't always end well, though, and could get expensive.

Finally, and most likely your best solution: you might consider simply doing your WBTB _after_ you wake up naturally in the morning.  If you're a good sleeper you'll likely be able to get back to sleep, and the late application could lead to some extended REM activity.

----------


## Ctharlhie

> That is a problem.  I can think of a few solutions off-hand, which  I'm guessing you have already considered:
> 
> First, they do make "gentle" alarm clocks designed to wake deep sleepers gradually... I guess if you have to be woken up by a machine, at least you can have it happen as gently as possible.  
> 
> If there is someone else in your house who is a lighter sleep than you, you might convince them to waken you at a time you think best...this doesn't always end well, though, and could get expensive.
> 
> Finally, and most likely your best solution: you might consider simply doing your WBTB _after_ you wake up naturally in the morning.  If you're a good sleeper you'll likely be able to get back to sleep, and the late application could lead to some extended REM activity.



Yes I think the last solution is best. I seem to be getting very vivid dream imagery when I wake up in the morning and just snooze. I suppose I could experiment with cycle adjustment? 
I'll try the auto-suggestion Rarecola suggested, the only reason I'm resistant is that it may interfere with my regular MILD practice. Then again, if it's successful it will help my MILD practice out a bunch.

Oh and by the way I think this topic was definitely worthy of its own lesson  :smiley: 

Also, I'm really looking forward to the next lesson, 'physical sensations', it's such an area of mystery and (in my humble opinion) where most people get it wrong: "Oh look my left big toe is somewhat numb, I'M GOING INTO SLEEP PARALYSIS"*

*How my first 10 or so WILD attempts went.

----------


## Bakuryu

I always had it easy with waking up for WBTBs, never used alarms. I just use auto-suggestion and it works great, in fact, it is something that I have been using for a very long time ago before I even became interested in dreams, just as a way to wake up early in the mornings with no alarm.
Anyway, I still have a lot RRC to do O: , just hope I'm doing it right.  I just think of my existence and how things around me are being affected simply because I'm there.  And I also think of where I was, where I'll be and where I am. Problem (or non-problem? :p) is that most of the time I'm in front of the computer, since I study, work and do everything here, haha, I get up every hour or so to stretch and sometimes meditate though, and other bodily functions of course :p

----------


## Sydney

Thanks for that lesson, Sageous!  :smiley:  That makes me think more about timing and how it is so important for the building of a WILD.

I do have a question though. How would I know where to start in finding the right time to wake up for WBTB? And can you give an example?
I'm sorry if that has already been mentioned here and I missed it. :/

----------


## Sageous

> Yes I think the last solution is best. I seem to be getting very vivid dream imagery when I wake up in the morning and just snooze. I suppose I could experiment with cycle adjustment?



If you mean by "cycle adjustment" something like going to bed earlier to buy yourself more post-sleep dream time in the morning then yes, that might be a good idea.  It would likely help your MILD's to, by changing things up a bit on the other end.  If you meant something else and I misunderstood, let me know.





> I'll try the auto-suggestion Rarecola suggested, the only reason I'm resistant is that it may interfere with my regular MILD practice. Then again, if it's successful it will help my MILD practice out a bunch.



Good idea, and I don't think it would hurt -- you might even be able to build a "wake up" suggestion right into your MILD prep, if that makes any sense.  And yes, such an addition would likely help, or at worst complement your MILD's with additional focus.

----------


## Sageous

> I still have a lot RRC to do O: , just hope I'm doing it right.  I just think of my existence and how things around me are being affected simply because I'm there.  And I also think of where I was, where I'll be and where I am. Problem (or non-problem? :p) is that most of the time I'm in front of the computer, since I study, work and do everything here, haha, I get up every hour or so to stretch and sometimes meditate though, and other bodily functions of course :p



Seems like you have a good enough understanding of the RRC  You might think more about your presence in reality, rather than your existence; thinking about things like "existence" tends to prompt "deep" thoughts that might lead your mind on to intellectual adventures that could threaten the simple sense of wonder about your presence in reality -- self-awareness --  that the RRC should inspire.

Your time before the computer is only a problem for RRC's if you let become one.  After all, your _body_ may not have moved, but your mind was certainly somewhere five minutes earlier, and will be somewhere else five minutes later.  In a sense, we potentially travel through -- and manufacture -- far more "reality" when working at a computer than when standing in a room.  You might have an advantage, RRC-wise!

And on a practical note, be careful of inadvertently doing your RRC's_ only_ during "bodily function" moments.  Since those "quiet" times seem to welcome actions like RRC's, you might find yourself checking on reality whenever you're indisposed, and that could lead to some curious day residue in your dreams!   :wink2:

----------


## Sageous

> I do have a question though. How would I know where to start in finding the right time to wake up for WBTB? And can you give an example?



The best way to find the right time, I think, is by looking at your sleep schedule during days off, when nothing is planned for that day (otherwise known as days you can wake up without an alarm, and have no obligations to interfere with dreams that might run long).  

Think about when you go to bed and when you normally wake up on those days.  For instance, if you normally go to bed by midnight on a Friday and get out of bed at 9am on a Saturday, you may find yourself naturally rousing from REM sleep now and then after about 6am -- we all do it; but tend to ignore it.  So, consider catching the first arousal you notice after 6am to do WBTB; that way you'll have had 6 hours of regular sleep behind you, and the REM cycles are probably getting close enough together. 

Or you might know that on Saturdays you always seem to wake up at dawn, and usually roll over and go back to sleep.  If that's the case, don't roll over; do WBTB instead.

Keep in mind that you'll need to tailor this to your own habits --for instance, if you always _get up_ at dawn on Saturdays, you'll need to start WBTB much earlier.

I just thought of this, too:  you could also figure out (perhaps by checking your dream journal) when your dreams are most lucid, vivid, or both (that's late morning for me), and do your WBTB just before that time.  Just a thought...

----------


## Ctharlhie

I find I always seem to wake from lucid  dreams at 4:30. On the dot.

should I aim to wbtb around then? (I go to bed from 10-11pm)

----------


## Sageous

> I find I always seem to wake from lucid  dreams at 4:30. On the dot.
> 
> should I aim to wbtb around then? (I go to bed from 10-11pm)



That sounds like a good plan:  Not only are you getting a needed 5+ hours of sleep, but you're also going to be doing WBTB at right around the time your REM cycles and awareness tend to be in natural sync.  So yes, to be finishing WBTB and starting WILD at just after 4am seems like the time for you.

Now you just need a way to comfortably wake up at around 4am.  But then again who knows? Maybe just the planning and expectation of the event will help you to wake up at that time naturally...

----------


## RareCola

Another question I forgot to ask. At the moment in my life I'm on a pretty backwards schedule. I'm a freelance graphic designer and doing a lot of work for people living in the US, so to accommodate my sleep schedule usually revolves around going to bed about 3-4am. This obviously means that, by the time I do my WBTB it's already light outside and sadly I don't have completely blackout curtains. I think I remember reading somewhere that having daylight can be detrimental to the WBTB and becoming lucid. Is there any truth in this, does it matter?

----------


## Sageous

> Another question I forgot to ask. At the moment in my life I'm on a pretty backwards schedule. I'm a freelance graphic designer and doing a lot of work for people living in the US, so to accommodate my sleep schedule usually revolves around going to bed about 3-4am. This obviously means that, by the time I do my WBTB it's already light outside and sadly I don't have completely blackout curtains. I think I remember reading somewhere that having daylight can be detrimental to the WBTB and becoming lucid. Is there any truth in this, does it matter?



Light is indeed the enemy of sleep, and a genuine distraction in LD'ing, given the dreamer's proximity to physical consciousness ('scuse me: actual wakefulness).

How about investing in a decent sleep mask?  That's what I do, given that my best time for LD'ing is usually late morning...I do have blackout curtains, but they're awful.  Another consideration, if possible, would be to take a couple of days off and schedule your WILD attempt on the 2nd day, but I know that might be remarkably impractical.

If you get a sleep mask, you might wear it for a couple of nights to get used to it so you don't spend your whole WILD attempt thinking about it.

----------


## Sivason

> I assume that you are attending this class because you either do not know how to do a WILD, or think you know but can't seem to get them to work.  If you are already proficient at WILD'ing, then I imagine you would not be here.



Ok, sorry, you of course know I already know how to. I did not mean any offense. I have been praticipating, as a form of comradary and to be supportive. That said, my question was blatently out of place and I can not imagine what I was thinking posting it here. I should have PMd you. You are the only other person I know with a similar amount of experience, so I figured I would get your opinion, but I must have still been half asleep to post it here instead of in a PM. Sorry  for my poor behavior and I will leave you to teach these fine students. Every one seems to be enthusiastic.

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## Sageous

^^ No worries, Sivason...I should have been more receptive to your good support, especially considering how abysmal my support of your class has been (I have been lurking, for what that's worth).  Don't worry also about offending...I've got a fairly thick skin, and wasn't bothered on a personal level at all. Besides, it turns out your question was most helpful because you gave me a good opportunity to say a few words about not jumping the gun and bearing with the pace of my class, which I had wanted to do anyway. So indeed your timing was most helpful, thank you! 

At least you got my opinion about your question, snarky as its tone may have been! 

 ::cheers::

----------


## RareCola

So, first night taking the advice for the WBTB, done it completely naturally and I achieved a DILD!

It wasn't just the WBTB though, I believe I have thanks to give to the RRC and general awareness too, because initially my reality check failed and I was beginning to assume it was real life but general awareness lead me to believe otherwise, after forcing my mind to think about RRC and keeping a high state of awareness, I realised it was a dream and finally a noseplug reality check succeeded.

It wasn't the best of lucid dreams, I was still somewhat sceptical I was dreaming after so many failed reality checks so I couldn't really will myself to do anything in fear that it may actually be real life, despite knowing that it must be a dream. After this I quickly lost the dream when I was testing the boundaries of my world. The point is though, it seems the WBTB worked well, as well as the RRC and awareness!

EDIT: Just made a dream journal entry about it with more detail here.

----------


## Sageous

^^ That's good news, RareCola!  Not giant steps, maybe, but at least you could see the potential of self-awareness and the RRC... Now you can remind yourself that_next time_ it'll be even better!

----------


## hermine_hesse

I just read Lesson 2 and have a few questions, Sageous:

1. I have had a few WILDs in my life and all have occurred by accident at the onset of sleep.  Do you think it is harmful to attempt a WILD at the onset of sleep in addition to the WBTB WILD?  

2. For the WBTB, for a while I was doing a WBTB after every sleep cycle (about every two hours), by waking, writing down my dreams, then attempting an LD.  This would usually mean 2-3 of waking every night.  Are multiple WBTBs ok, or is it better to stick with just one?

3. You mentioned selecting a specific day to WILD, would it be ok to attempt a WILD every night?  

4. Right now I am in the middle of a big life change involving moving to another state.  Days where I can sleep in and have nothing to do are almost nonexistent right now, plus my sleep schedule is all over the place.  Not surprisingly, my LD count has gone from 1-2 a week to nothing.  Is it even possible for me to work new routines into my chaotic sleep schedule, or will WILDing success have to wait until I am sufficiently settled into a new routine?

----------


## TheGrimRose

Weird because last night i had three dreams (pretty good for me) and the last of the three was my very first lucid dream!

I have to thank Sageous though because of the RCC's and new found awareness i have gotten from this class is what made me become lucid. It all started because i wanted to figure out my perfect timing to WILD. I set my alarm at 3 45 and went to bed at like 10. I find that my most vivid dreams are after about 5 and a half hours of sleep. But instead of using the alarm clock to wake me up, i was focusing on waking up before my alarm clock and use it as a failsafe just in case i don't wake up. I repeated "I am going to wake up before my alarm and remember a dream quite vividly." (i've also been working on DR). I repeated it in my mind before i fell asleep and at one point i told myself to wake up at 3 30 instead of 3 45. What do ya know, I woke up at exactly 3 34 before my alarm clock! Amazing how my mind did that just from me telling myself i can. I remembered the dream i was dreaming quite well and fell back asleep afterwards. i then woke up after a second dream and remembered that dream quite vividly also! I recorded that dream in my DJ once again and fell back asleep shortly after. 

This next dream though was different. . . it was my very first lucid dream! The first half was a normal non-lucid dream until i am at some shopping center with a girl DC. I notice a car driving by that instead of having wheels, it had the sort of stone wheel things from the Flintstones! I immediately realized it because of the new found awareness i have learned from Sageous and the RCC's have helped also. Once i realized i may just be in a dream and not in waking life, i count my fingers and count 7. I now officially knew i was lucid! But i maintained my emotions and did not let it destabilize. I then looked at my left wrist which usually has a wrist watch on it. It wasn't on it so i shut my eyes and thought about the feelings of it being there and imagined looking at it on my wrist. I then opened my eyes and there it was! My first ever summoning of an object in my first ever lucid dream. I then wanted to extend what powers i may be able to do in this lucid dream. I ditch the girl DC that i was with and three good looking DC walk by. I say hi, but they all give me the cold shoulder. Huh, my own sub-conscious giving me the cold shoulder hahahha. I then will one of them to turn around and start talking to me and the best looking one turns around and starts talking to me. There ya go, my first ever DC manipulation in the first lucid dream. I then did a few other things which are irrelevant and woke up after about what i thought was 5 minutes. I woke up and was excited from the get go!   ::banana::   ::banana::   ::banana:: 


I know none of this is a question, but i just wanted to share my first ever lucid experience and how this class has helped me achieve the DILD. So thanks Sageous!  ::D:

----------


## Strit

Thanks for your answer on my last question. It really helps to have a little thingy i my pocket all the time. Even when I don't "find it" I still sometimes remember that it's there and that it means that I should be doing a RRC. Funny that it's easier for me to remember that I have something in my pocket that to simply remember to do the check.

So for lesson 2: Is it really necessary to get out of bed, or would it suffice to sit up for some time? I already wake up naturally (at least whenever I remember to tell myself to) but normally I do nothing but grab a pen and write in my dream journal. My main reason for not wanting to actually get out of bed is my light-sleeper-boyfriend who has trouble falling back to sleep if I wake him up. For the same reason I am very happy that you do not advise us to use alarms 'course I would not be able to  :smiley: 

You are doing a wonderful job. I'm honored to be able to call you my teacher  :smiley:

----------


## RareCola

> Weird because last night i had three dreams (pretty good for me) and the last of the three was my very first lucid dream!
> 
> I have to thank Sageous though because of the RCC's and new found awareness i have gotten from this class is what made me become lucid. It all started because i wanted to figure out my perfect timing to WILD. I set my alarm at 3 45 and went to bed at like 10. I find that my most vivid dreams are after about 5 and a half hours of sleep. But instead of using the alarm clock to wake me up, i was focusing on waking up before my alarm clock and use it as a failsafe just in case i don't wake up. I repeated "I am going to wake up before my alarm and remember a dream quite vividly." (i've also been working on DR). I repeated it in my mind before i fell asleep and at one point i told myself to wake up at 3 30 instead of 3 45. What do ya know, I woke up at exactly 3 34 before my alarm clock! Amazing how my mind did that just from me telling myself i can. I remembered the dream i was dreaming quite well and fell back asleep afterwards. i then woke up after a second dream and remembered that dream quite vividly also! I recorded that dream in my DJ once again and fell back asleep shortly after. 
> 
> This next dream though was different. . . it was my very first lucid dream! The first half was a normal non-lucid dream until i am at some shopping center with a girl DC. I notice a car driving by that instead of having wheels, it had the sort of stone wheel things from the Flintstones! I immediately realized it because of the new found awareness i have learned from Sageous and the RCC's have helped also. Once i realized i may just be in a dream and not in waking life, i count my fingers and count 7. I now officially knew i was lucid! But i maintained my emotions and did not let it destabilize. I then looked at my left wrist which usually has a wrist watch on it. It wasn't on it so i shut my eyes and thought about the feelings of it being there and imagined looking at it on my wrist. I then opened my eyes and there it was! My first ever summoning of an object in my first ever lucid dream. I then wanted to extend what powers i may be able to do in this lucid dream. I ditch the girl DC that i was with and three good looking DC walk by. I say hi, but they all give me the cold shoulder. Huh, my own sub-conscious giving me the cold shoulder hahahha. I then will one of them to turn around and start talking to me and the best looking one turns around and starts talking to me. There ya go, my first ever DC manipulation in the first lucid dream. I then did a few other things which are irrelevant and woke up after about what i thought was 5 minutes. I woke up and was excited from the get go!    
> 
> 
> I know none of this is a question, but i just wanted to share my first ever lucid experience and how this class has helped me achieve the DILD. So thanks Sageous!



It's great how this class is helping with every aspect of lucid dreaming and not just WILDs! Congratulations on your first lucid dream  :smiley:

----------


## Sageous

> I just read Lesson 2 and have a few questions, Sageous:
> 
> 1. I have had a few WILDs in my life and all have occurred by accident at the onset of sleep.  Do you think it is harmful to attempt a WILD at the onset of sleep in addition to the WBTB WILD?



Not at all.  If you have the unusual ability (usually a result of narcolepsy) to go straight to REM upon sleeping at night, then sure, do WILD's then as well. And sure, I can't see any harm or confusion resulting from doing both.  In fact, I tend to do just that myself: though my bedtime WILD attempts are more related to sleep yoga than LD'ing, the activity is similar, and I'm still reasonably sane. 





> 2. For the WBTB, for a while I was doing a WBTB after every sleep cycle (about every two hours), by waking, writing down my dreams, then attempting an LD.  This would usually mean 2-3 of waking every night.  Are multiple WBTBs ok, or is it better to stick with just one?



For mental prep reasons (about which we'll talk later), it is probably better to have just one WBTB session a night, preferably at the time your dreams and/or lucidity are usually most profound. That way you can focus your conscious efforts on one, hopefully most likely, target.  But again, if you can apply all the mental prep you did the day(s) before into every WBTB, with _equal focus for each_ then sure, go for it.  I do recommend concentrating on one cycle, though.





> 3. You mentioned selecting a specific day to WILD, would it be ok to attempt a WILD every night?



Of course..practice makes perfect! Maybe though, if you find that some days are better than others, you can ramp your efforts up a bit for that day, maybe with special goals or more time allotted.





> 4. Right now I am in the middle of a big life change involving moving to another state.  Days where I can sleep in and have nothing to do are almost nonexistent right now, plus my sleep schedule is all over the place.  Not surprisingly, my LD count has gone from 1-2 a week to nothing.  Is it even possible for me to work new routines into my chaotic sleep schedule, or will WILDing success have to wait until I am sufficiently settled into a new routine?



It sounds like you're definitely going to have trouble finding the right WBTB "quality" time for successful WILD's right now.  Simply because your schedule right now seems to imply that there is no place for routines, you might have to put off WBTB, as I described it, for a while.  That doesn't mean you can't do the rest of the stuff, though, because things like RRC and upcoming sessions on physical effects and more mental prep will hopefully still be with you after you settle down and learn your new schedules. Assuming of course you have time to read the sessions... 

Oh, and since you have had bedtime WILD's, Hermine, there's no reason why you can't just try the WILD technique (that I promise I will one day get to  :wink2: ) at night when you go to bed...you might find it a nice break from your hectic days.

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## Sageous

> This next dream though was different. . . it was my very first lucid dream! 
> 
> I know none of this is a question, but i just wanted to share my first ever lucid experience and how this class has helped me achieve the DILD. So thanks Sageous!



That's great news,TheGrimRose!  Thanks for sharing!

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## Sageous

> So for lesson 2: Is it really necessary to get out of bed, or would it suffice to sit up for some time? I already wake up naturally (at least whenever I remember to tell myself to) but normally I do nothing but grab a pen and write in my dream journal. My main reason for not wanting to actually get out of bed is my light-sleeper-boyfriend who has trouble falling back to sleep if I wake him up.



I do think it is necessary to get up, in order to reinforce your waking consciousness and avoid accidentally falling back to sleep.  But since I understand your boyfriend's plight (I'm an incredibly light sleeper, much to the chagrin of my deep-sleeping and fairly active wife), I suppose there must be an exception to the rule if you are unable to to sneak out of bed:

So, for the sake of your boyfriend's rest: If you are sitting up and writing down your dreams, and that takes a few minutes, then maybe if you stay sitting for a few minutes after you finish jotting in your journal, and just think about the dreams -- or your next WILD attempt, you might be able to get WBTB to work for you...And you can remind your boyfriend a few times that you're making an extra effort just for him!

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## enak101

That was good. I have been doing a little too short a period of time lately I think. Should we attempt each time of sleeping for one night. How do you tell if it is 'good' or not?

I was going to try out DEILD before and on one night I do remember waking up several times. So, I'll try and focus on that again and see if I can realise when I awake during the night.

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## hermine_hesse

Thanks, Sageous!  The instruction I'm getting both from your and Sivason's classes is really invaluable.  Up until now, I feel like I've been stumbling forward in the dark...





> Not at all.  If you have the unusual ability (usually a result of narcolepsy) to go straight to REM upon sleeping at night, then sure, do WILD's then as well. And sure, I can't see any harm or confusion resulting from doing both.  In fact, I tend to do just that myself: though my bedtime WILD attempts are more related to sleep yoga than LD'ing, the activity is similar, and I'm still reasonably sane.



Well, I definitely don't have narcolepsy.  I am a natural LDer (though only a few times a year without any effort) and had extreme cases of Isolated Sleep Paralysis (the disorder, not regular sleep paralysis) in the past, so maybe that makes me a bit unusual with REM cycles.  





> It sounds like you're definitely going to have trouble finding the right WBTB "quality" time for successful WILD's right now.  Simply because your schedule right now seems to imply that there is no place for routines, you might have to put off WBTB, as I described it, for a while.  That doesn't mean you can't do the rest of the stuff, though, because things like RRC and upcoming sessions on physical effects and more mental prep will hopefully still be with you after you settle down and learn your new schedules. Assuming of course you have time to read the sessions... 
> 
> Oh, and since you have had bedtime WILD's, Hermine, there's no reason why you can't just try the WILD technique (that I promise I will one day get to ) at night when you go to bed...you might find it a nice break from your hectic days.



I do have time for DV, since I use this as my relaxation/downtime.  So, I will keep following the sessions and continuing with the practices as best I can, but will just keep in mind not to feel discouraged if I don't have results until after I'm settled.  I have been continuing with the RRC's.  It has definitely been interesting practicing RRCs during things like an nine hour drive!  I actually think this practice is helping to keep me grounded in calm rather than feeling unsettled.

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## Sydney

For some reason I never woke up last night  :tongue2:  I'm wondering if I should use mantras or just rely on my own body to wake me up at the best times for WBTB?

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## Sageous

> That was good. I have been doing a little too short a period of time lately I think. Should we attempt each time of sleeping for one night. How do you tell if it is 'good' or not?



I'm not sure I understand, but I think you don't need to go as far as testing time periods or time spans. For our purposes here, you need not look deeper than thinking about what time of night/day seems to you to be best for being aware of dreaming, and then try to have an extra hour or two before and after that time, as a sort of cushion...I hope that made sense!





> I was going to try out DEILD before and on one night I do remember waking up several times. So, I'll try and focus on that again and see if I can realise when I awake during the night.



 That sounds like a good plan, because DEILD gives you a good sense of when you are at peak consciousness/dreaming moment.

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## Sageous

> For some reason I never woke up last night  I'm wondering if I should use mantras or just rely on my own body to wake me up at the best times for WBTB?



If you're looking for the best times for WBTB, which in this case you are, then yes, just rely on your body to cut you some slack and "wake" you. Try again for a couple more nights.

Setting up and using mantras (which we will be discussing shortly) has its purpose, but in this case doing so could create an "artificial" wake time that won't come in too handy come dream time.  So for now just do your best for a couple more nights to see if and when you tend to wake up at night.

If that turns out to be impossible -- there are certainly people who "sleep right through," meaning that their reticular systems and memories completely ignored those brief moments of waking during sleep -- then you might need to settle for noting the times you tend to first wake ip in the morning, and hope that you can get back to sleep after then...

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## Sydney

> If you're looking for the best times for WBTB, which in this case you are, then yes, just rely on your body to cut you some slack and "wake" you. Try again for a couple more nights.
> 
> Setting up and using mantras (which we will be discussing shortly) has its purpose, but in this case doing so could create an "artificial" wake time that won't come in too handy come dream time.  So for now just do your best for a couple more nights to see if and when you tend to wake up at night.
> 
> If that turns out to be impossible -- there are certainly people who "sleep right through," meaning that their reticular systems and memories completely ignored those brief moments of waking during sleep -- then you might need to settle for noting the times you tend to first wake ip in the morning, and hope that you can get back to sleep after then...



Ah, okay. What if my body wakes me up to use the restroom? Could that be counted as when I "wake up naturally" during the night? Like do you think that could be one of the reliable times for WBTB?
Or is it just totally random?

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## Sageous

> Ah, okay. What if my body wakes me up to use the restroom? Could that be counted as when I "wake up naturally" during the night? Like do you think that could be one of the reliable times for WBTB?
> Or is it just totally random?



Not _totally_ random...

If your body wakes you up for any reason, you could count that as natural.  So yeah, an alert for a trip to the restroom would work fine.  In fact, it works a little finer than you might think, as those kinds of wakings, unless there's a real emergency unfolding, tend to occur just after REM cycles anyway, which is optimal for WBTB.  Also, as nature tends to "call" later in the night (if you're still young and healthy, of course), that recent REM might be a late cycle, after those few needed hours of sleep, which is also good.

So, since it's not so totally random if you look at it just right, waking to use the restroom is a doable time for WBTB.

You should still keep an eye out for other times, perhaps later in the morning, when you wake up naturally.  They're there, if tough to notice!

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## Ctharlhie

I've become lucid on the last 3 consecutive nights and I can't help but think it has something to do with the RRCs  :smiley:  I seem to take to them better than other ways of state testing.

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## Sydney

Well, last night I remember waking up about 4 hours after I fell asleep, and then again after about 5 hours and 30 minutes.. and then I think again after 6 hours and 30 minutes.
So should I just keep trying and see which awakening comes most naturally? (I mean like, the one I wake up most for)

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## Ctharlhie

I think you should let it happen naturally and see which one yields the most vivid dream recall and also lets you return to sleep easily.
Now it's approaching summer, 4 o'clock is starting to get quite light and the dawn chorus is pretty loud. I almost felt like going for a walk when I woke for WBTB last night  ::lol:: .

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## enak101

Well, I woke up once last night after about 6 or 7 hours of sleep. I ended up just going back to sleep but I'm either going to WBTB or DEILD. Not sure yet.

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## hermine_hesse

I had another interesting experience with RRC last night.  I did a RRC while laying in bed immediately before falling asleep (though I'm not sure why it had never occurred to me to RRC at this time before).  I lightly considered where I was 5mins ago, where I am, and where I will be in 5min.  I realized in 5min, _I would be in a dream._  I suddenly got the sense of being fully aware of...well, my _being_ and also that I was stationary and my realities where swirling and forming around me.  

Today as I did my RRCs, I attempted to conjure the same feeling I experienced last night.  I did this once while walking briskly and felt for a moment that I was not moving forward, but that everything was moving past me.  It felt disorienting and much like when you are sitting in a stationary train, another train going the opposite way next to starts to move and for a moment you are not sure if the train you are on is the one that's moving (not sure if that makes sense...).  I've seen someone mention the way they travel in LDs is to roll the landscape past them, rather than walking.  So, I can see how my experience can lend itself directly to an LD skill.

As for Lesson 2, in the past when I did WBTB's, I always used an alarm and thought it would be very difficult without one.  Last night, I actually woke up without and alarm what seemed like every sleep cycle!  I woke up 2hrs after first falling asleep, 1hour after that, then again 1.5 hours after that.

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## Sageous

> I had another interesting experience with RRC last night.  I did a RRC while laying in bed immediately before falling asleep (though I'm not sure why it had never occurred to me to RRC at this time before).  I lightly considered where I was 5mins ago, where I am, and where I will be in 5min.  I realized in 5min, _I would be in a dream._  I suddenly got the sense of being fully aware of...well, my _being_ and also that I was stationary and my realities where swirling and forming around me.  
> 
> Today as I did my RRCs, I attempted to conjure the same feeling I experienced last night.  I did this once while walking briskly and felt for a moment that I was not moving forward, but that everything was moving past me.  It felt disorienting and much like when you are sitting in a stationary train, another train going the opposite way next to starts to move and for a moment you are not sure if the train you are on is the one that's moving (not sure if that makes sense...).  I've seen someone mention the way they travel in LDs is to roll the landscape past them, rather than walking.  So, I can see how my experience can lend itself directly to an LD skill.



... And that, in a nutshell, is what the RRC is all about; nice work, Hermine!





> As for Lesson 2, in the past when I did WBTB's, I always used an alarm and thought it would be very difficult without one.  Last night, I actually woke up without and alarm what seemed like every sleep cycle!  I woke up 2hrs after first falling asleep, 1hour after that, then again 1.5 hours after that.



See?  Just put your mind to it, or at least get your mind interested in it, and some things just work!

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## Ctharlhie

That's funny, I did nearly the same thing as Hermine Hesse, except as I lay in bed ready to fall asleep, I tried to go through as many moments of the day as I could remember and imagined them all as a dream. I had the fourth LD in four nights.  ::D:  Really, this RRC business has invigorated my dreaming practice alone, I can't wait to get to actual WILD  ::lol::

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## littlezoe

I'm sure others said this already, but i want to thank you Sageous for this Reverse RC  :smiley: 

Since i'm doing it (and ADSA) i got lucid more easier in my dreams. Even while it only helped with DILD so far, that's also a really good thing ^^
My awareness is higher than it was before, that's for sure  :smiley:

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## Sageous

> I can't wait to get to actual WILD



It's coming, it's coming!  

Funny thing though, is that you're doing the real work right now...get all this stuff down and the actual WILD will be little more than lying down and waiting...

But more on that later.  :Cheeky:

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## Sydney

I keep forgetting to do the RRC  :Sad: 
I guess I just need to discipline myself!





> I can't wait to get to actual WILD



I can't either!  ::D:

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## Sageous

Actual WILD's are coming soon, Sydney...just remember all this stuff were slogging through now will make them easier to do, and more likely to work!   :smiley:

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## Taffy

> I keep forgetting to do the RRC 
> I guess I just need to discipline myself!



Me too. :/

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## Sageous

^^ Discipline, or just some simple reminder, like a rubber band on your wrist or maybe an object in your pocket... Every time you feel the object, do your RRC... Just a thought...

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## RareCola

I don't know whether it's the new WBTB schedule or the RRCs or something else all together, but recently I've been going to bed and waking up maybe an hour or two later and remembering dreams even then. Pretty big milestone for me as a few weeks ago I couldn't remember any dreams until after my alarmed WBTB. My dreams overall also seem a lot more "detailed", in the sense that I'm feeling a lot more physical sensations like exhaustion, inability to breathe underwater, smell, etc.

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## Sageous

> I don't know whether it's the new WBTB schedule or the RRCs or something else all together, but recently I've been going to bed and waking up maybe an hour or two later and remembering dreams even then. Pretty big milestone for me as a few weeks ago I couldn't remember any dreams until after my alarmed WBTB. My dreams overall also seem a lot more "detailed", in the sense that I'm feeling a lot more physical sensations like exhaustion, inability to breathe underwater, smell, etc.



Maybe it_ is_ the RRC's, _and_ the WBTB schedule, _and_, above all, your focused _attention_ on all this.  Ultimately successful LD'ing is a result of nothing more than simply paying attention -- and all the things we're doing here, even though they seem to have nothing to do with WILD, are driving us toward doing just that.  

But it does go away quickly, so be sure to keep up the RRC's and, if possible, the overall curiosity, expectation, attention, that you're currently paying to your dreams and your self-awareness.

Nice work, RareCola!

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## littlezoe

Well, i took the time to read the Timing thread finally  :smiley:  I agree with all points in it, WILD seems to work best for me after WBTB as well... 

Althrough i wanted to mention that i succeeded with WILD twice immediately after going to sleep for the first time during the night. Althrough the dreams during this time were white-black and really blurry, they also had no sounds... They felt somewhat like the "prototype" of lucid dreams.... 
All i want to say with this is that it's really not worth it to try WILD during these times, i can back that up with these experiences :S

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## Sageous

> Well, i took the time to read the Timing thread finally  I agree with all points in it, WILD seems to work best for me after WBTB as well... 
> 
> Althrough i wanted to mention that i succeeded with WILD twice immediately after going to sleep for the first time during the night. Althrough the dreams during this time were white-black and really blurry, they also had no sounds... They felt somewhat like the "prototype" of lucid dreams.... 
> All i want to say with this is that it's really not worth it to try WILD during these times, i can back that up with these experiences :S



It could be, Littlezoe, that you didn't totally succeed at WILD during those two attempts -- what you described sounds to me like hypnagogic imagery, which is basically unformed dreamlets that occur as you are drifting between wake and sleep (I'll actually be mentioning this on Tuesday, so your timing is good), and in your state of heightened awareness you were able to take deeper note of them.  I guess, also, that hypnagogic imagery could easily be defined as prototype lucids, if you're carrying some waking awareness with you -- and you were.  Of course I could be wrong, so if you're sure they were LD's then just ignore me... you, after all, were there!

Thanks for sharing -- I think it's important, timing-wise, to not bother with WILDs at bedtime; and I also like it very much when someone other than me notes just that!  :smiley:

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## littlezoe

> It could be, Littlezoe, that you didn't totally succeed at WILD during those two attempts -- what you described sounds to me like hypnagogic imagery, which is basically unformed dreamlets that occur as you are drifting between wake and sleep (I'll actually be mentioning this on Tuesday, so your timing is good), and in your state of heightened awareness you were able to take deeper note of them.  I guess, also, that hypnagogic imagery could easily be defined as prototype lucids, if you're carrying some waking awareness with you -- and you were.  Of course I could be wrong, so if you're sure they were LD's then just ignore me... you, after all, were there!
> 
> Thanks for sharing -- I think it's important, timing-wise, to not bother with WILDs at bedtime; and I also like it very much when someone other than me notes just that!



I'm certainly sure that they were dreams, i know the difference between them and hypnagogic imagery  :smiley:  
I could move around freely and even fly a little, but it was just soo depressive and lifeless... not like the LDs that i usually have and it didn't even last long either times. At first i thought that maybe i got into a NREM dream and that's why it was so dull... but i'm not sure if that's possible with WILD  :smiley:

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## Sageous

^^ Okay, then!   As I said, you were there, so you would know better than me!

I guess I jumped to the hypnagogic imagery conclusion because it tied in nicely with Tuesday's session; selfish of me to presume, sorry! 

Now that you mention it, what you describe _was_ likely an NREM experience.  Which is not a bad thing, BTW:  NREM (aka delta sleep, for when I forget later and call it that) dreams are definitely accessible via a version of WILD, and in my opinion well worth exploring...in fact, the Tibetan sleep yogis believe that the deepest truths are found in NREM, and not REM.

So if you master WILD, it'll work just as well for you in NREM...and _then_ it'll make sense to WILD at bedtime!  But for our "standard" LD'ing purposes now I think you're correct in saying bedtime is not the right time for WILD.

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## TheGrimRose

Hi sageous! I know RRC are very important to WILDing, but i am having a hard time remembering to do them. When i began this class, RRC's were part of my daily routine, but as time passes by, i seem like i am drifting farther and farther away from remembering to do it. Idk if i am getting lazy or what. My question is though, do you have tips or anything like that you use to remember to do them? It would really be a great help. Thanks Sageous

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## RareCola

> Hi sageous! I know RRC are very important to WILDing, but i am having a hard time remembering to do them. When i began this class, RRC's were part of my daily routine, but as time passes by, i seem like i am drifting farther and farther away from remembering to do it. Idk if i am getting lazy or what. My question is though, do you have tips or anything like that you use to remember to do them? It would really be a great help. Thanks Sageous



I just try to attach them onto either my normal RCs or my SAT, seems to work quite well. Although I have been having similar forgetful issues with RRCs, I think it's just because it's harder to get into the mindset for the RRC because it's such an obscure thing.

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## Sageous

TheGrimRose:

I've been doing RRC's for years now, and to this day I have trouble with remembering to do them, and keeping them important! As RareCola said, it can be difficult to keep a thing like this on the front burner, especially without an external reminder.  As I said earlier, the way I'm currently reminding myself is with a small wooden fetish that I carry in my pocket at all times.  Whenever I feel it, I do an RRC.

There are many things you can do, from something as simple as wearing a rubber band on your wrist, or doing an RRC very time you walk through a door (handy regular RC cue as well, BTW), to something as complex as a random alarm app for your phone or an actual machine that will sound an alarm at random intervals, like the Personal Electronic State Tester (P.E.S.T.) that the Lucidity Institute sold years ago.

  In other words, there are a lot of options... The key is finding a reminder that works for you, but is not _too_ convenient.  Also, you might need to change reminders occasionally, because you might find yourself getting used to, and thus ignoring, even the best reminder after a couple of weeks.

I hope that helped; let me know if it didn't...

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## Ctharlhie

What I find useful for motivation is to not force it in any way. It's fine to have off-days, if I struggle remembering to reality check or do dream incubation then I don't worry about it and 'have that day off'. The best way to commit to a routine of RCs is to affirm very strongly in the morning after you've recorded your dreams in you dream journal that you're going to carry them out through the day.

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## Sydney

Sageous, you did say that RRC's take only a couple of seconds to do, right?
I seem to be making the RRC a lot harder and longer than it seems. First when I remember to do it, I think of where I just was, then where I am now, and then where I will be in the future. And then I wonder how I am affecting everyone and how they're affecting me (is that right?). But on the last part I struggle with it and it drags out for at least 15-20 more seconds as I am trying to get in that right "mindset".

Am I thinking about it too hard?

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## Ctharlhie

I think of it as how my perception affects both my, and those of everyone else around me, experience. Think, if you weren't in that location at that time, your experience would be entirely different, as would everyone else at the location and time, because _you_ as an agent and observer wouldn't be there to experience it and be experienced by others. 

That sounded better in my head.

But for each scene in waking life, as in dream scenes, you briefly create that perception of the world that wouldn't exist was your sense of self not there to perceive it.

It's a bit of a mindscrew to put it in writing like that, but really it's an abstract concept, such concepts can be thought without the need for labelling or even an internal monologue, as such it can be thought and acknowledged in an instant. I may be off the mark here, but it's almost like the intellectual puzzles called Koans that Zen meditators contemplate in the course of meditative practice.

EDIT: tdlr; yeah, in the moment of the RRC you're probably overthinking althought in a more philosophical scope it's almost impossible to over think this kind of thing.

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## Sageous

> Sageous, you did say that RRC's take only a couple of seconds to do, right?
> I seem to be making the RRC a lot harder and longer than it seems. First when I remember to do it, I think of where I just was, then where I am now, and then where I will be in the future. And then I wonder how I am affecting everyone and how they're affecting me (is that right?). But on the last part I struggle with it and it drags out for at least 15-20 more seconds as I am trying to get in that right "mindset".
> 
> Am I thinking about it too hard?




Sydney, it sounds to me like you're thinking about it just right.  I said that, _with practice,_ you should be able to reduce an RRC time to just a few seconds.  But you have to get there, and in the beginning it will seem like a long -- and often annoying -- thing to do, what with asking all those questions and having always to wonder and all.

So take your time, be more concerned about that right mindset than about whether you're doing the RRC right, and, ironically, you _will_ do it right... I think you're already on the "right" path anyway, just by asking the question!

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## hermine_hesse

> Sageous, you did say that RRC's take only a couple of seconds to do, right?
> I seem to be making the RRC a lot harder and longer than it seems. First when I remember to do it, I think of where I just was, then where I am now, and then where I will be in the future. And then I wonder how I am affecting everyone and how they're affecting me (is that right?). But on the last part I struggle with it and it drags out for at least 15-20 more seconds as I am trying to get in that right "mindset".
> 
> Am I thinking about it too hard?



Just during the past week, I've found I am able to reduce the time it takes to do the RRCs.  At first, it felt like it was taking me a few minutes to do the RRC and I felt very awkward doing it in public.  (My girlfriend actually started to wonder why I kept getting these weird, spaced out looks all the time.)  I think this is like anything in that the more you repeat it, the faster your brain gets at doing it.

I also found for me that it helped if I used visualization instead of asking actual questions.  Though I imagine this is different for everyone, I know I am prone to over intellectualization and can better avoid it if I work in pictures and energy rather than thought words.

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## Taffy

I was doing the RRC yesterday while playing a game of horse with my brother at the park. I realized that life had an infinite number of branching paths. For example, if I had missed the shot and gotten another letter, I'd have lost, but since I got it in, I kind of "switched paths," to say. Not really an amazing discovery, but it's the first thing I'd realized or felt while doing an RRC.

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## Sageous

> ...At first, it felt like it was taking me a few minutes to do the RRC and I felt very awkward doing it in public.  (My girlfriend actually started to wonder why I kept getting these weird, spaced out looks all the time.)



Tell me about it.  I've emerged from an RRC more than once with my wife looking at me like it was time to take me to the hospital.  Or funny farm.





> I also found for me that it helped if I used visualization instead of asking actual questions. Though I imagine this is different for everyone, I know I am prone to over intellectualization and can better avoid it if I work in pictures and energy rather than thought words.



Actually, if that works for you, it's a much better (read: efficient) way to do an RRC -- as long as you're always able to_ wonder._

Nice work, Hermine!

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## Sageous

> I was doing the RRC yesterday while playing a game of horse with my brother at the park. I realized that life had an infinite number of branching paths. For example, if I had missed the shot and gotten another letter, I'd have lost, but since I got it in, I kind of "switched paths," to say. Not really an amazing discovery, but it's the first thing I'd realized or felt while doing an RRC.



Very nice, Taffy, both because you kept the "wonder" simple -- as it must be, and because, well, you remembered to do an RRC in the first place!

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## littlezoe

I'm also doing the RCC in a visual way. It's just much easier like that to me, instead of asking questions. I usually don't even ask anything even in my mind, but wonder about things without words  :smiley:

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## Sydney

Okay, thank you Sageous! it makes much more sense to me now  :tongue2: 

Oh and Ctharlie, I definetly understood what you were trying to say, thank you  :smiley: 





> So take your time, be more concerned about that right mindset than about whether you're doing the RRC right, and, ironically, you _will_ do it right... I think you're already on the "right" path anyway, just by asking the question!



That's exactly what I was worrying about! Thank you for explaining.  ::D:

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## Ametam

Ok I'v Been trying these RRC through out the last 2 tweeks or so. Iv been doing what you say, feel how I am effecting the environment, where I am, where I am going, where I have been, but I don't get the sense of "wonder." Is the point of the exercise to "wonder" or is it just to realize I am in that situation?

----------


## Sageous

> Ok I'v Been trying these RRC through out the last 2 tweeks or so. Iv been doing what you say, feel how I am effecting the environment, where I am, where I am going, where I have been, but I don't get the sense of "wonder." Is the point of the exercise to "wonder" or is it just to realize I am in that situation?



Yes.

It's both, or either.  The point of the exercise is to pause regularly and remind yourself that your "self" is always a part of everything.  Remember that the "wonder" part is less about "awe" and more about a simple wordless openness to your constant exchange with your local reality.  Remember also to include consideration of your effect on other people, and them on you, in your pause (even if no one is around).

Even if you fail to really _wonder_ in your RRC's, doing them regularly should still be of some help to your WILD'ing, because the habit of pausing and asking those questions ought to follow you into your dreams, where it will be very useful is maintaining awareness.

So, yes!

----------


## hermine_hesse

Last night I had a huge jump in my recall - I was able to remember three full dreams plus five fragments.  In each dream I kept having what I call "almost lucids".  I would see something strange, then stop and wonder about it.  Each time, I got distracted before I became lucid.  The RRCs are definitely causing the "almost lucids".  I feel that lucidity and WILDs are just around the corner!

----------


## Sageous

^^ That's great, Hermine.  though I don't associate RRC's with recall (they're a 'hear and now' sort of thing), I can see your overall immersion in all this stuff bumping up recall a bit. Nice to see the RRC's doing their job, too.

And yeah, hold onto that kind of interest and focus, and sure enough, the LD's will come!

----------


## fuzzion

Hello I'm pretty new to WILD and have never attempted to do it before I'm just wondering how to overcome the fear of it. I just don't like what I heard about SP, I know it's just my head doing funny things but it still feels kinda creepy.

Second question, I usualy play music when I'm out walking can I do the RRC with music on, or is it to much of a distraction?

----------


## Sageous

*Session Three: Notes about the Noise is now posted.* 

Enjoy!

----------


## Sageous

> Hello I'm pretty new to WILD and have never attempted to do it before I'm just wondering how to overcome the fear of it. I just don't like what I heard about SP, I know it's just my head doing funny things but it still feels kinda creepy.



Your timing is excellent, fuzzion.  I just posted this week's session, and if you read it you might find that there is absolutely nothing to fear about WILD, or SP -- all that stuff they talk about is just so much noise!





> Second question, I usually play music when I'm out walking can I do the RRC with music on, or is it too much of a distraction?



Music is by its nature a distraction, but if you can incorporate it into your RRC (like wondering why the music is playing, or why you like it), it shouldn't be a problem.  If you can't incorporate it, and you find yourself listening to the music during your RRC, then yes, it might be a good idea to shut it off for a minute.

----------


## RareCola

Another great session this week, Sageous. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

I completely agree that people get too caught up on "the noise", as you termed it. For me personally, taking this class is definitely about being able to become lucid at will. That said, I still would love to experience sleep paralysis, but I think that's something that would be best just left to _happen_, rather than striving to induce it.

I definitely learned a lot from reading this session and it helped me more accurately define my experiences with WILD to date. My most vivid lucid dreams by far have been ones where I've accidentally done a DEILD, but I've only been able to do it directly after waking from a DILD beforehand. I can't wait to learn more about inducing DEILDs at will. Thanks again!

Also just an update on the natural WBTB: I've had 2 lucids in 2 days and I definitely think naturally WBTBing is a factor in that.  ::D:

----------


## Ctharlhie

Very interesting lesson this week, Sageous, and one that's well worth addressing due to the sheer amount of baggage attached to the somatic sensations associated with WILD. No matter how many times I think I've got it figured that sleep paralysis is not the goal I still seem to find myself excited at the slightest physical sensation.

I can only lay claim to one valid WILD and that indeed didn't involve sleep paralysis, I fell asleep and regained awareness in time to witness the dream formation occur around me. I've had a few DEILDs and most of the time if I'm successful I never become aware enough of my body to experience sleep paralysis, and even when I have experienced it I wonder whether it might just have been a construct of the dream based on my unconscious expectations of an SP experience.

Once again I can't wait for the next lesson  :smiley:

----------


## Ctharlhie

Also this lesson does outline just how flawed the progress arc of a WILD touted on internet guides is: lay down -> hold still -> SP -> HI -> HH -> Dream.
Personally I start to experience HI almost immediately after I lay down if I'm sleepy, and full HH not soon after without any hint of a dream or SP. Often I don't need to worry too much about laying still.

Sometimes I experience stuff like ringing ears and 'shocks' in my right hemisphere, these are just distractions?

----------


## RareCola

> Also this lesson does outline just how flawed the progress arc of a WILD touted on internet guides is: lay down -> hold still -> SP -> HI -> HH -> Dream.
> Personally I start to experience HI almost immediately after I lay down if I'm sleepy, and full HH not soon after without any hint of a dream or SP. Often I don't need to worry too much about laying still.
> 
> Sometimes I experience stuff like ringing ears and 'shocks' in my right hemisphere, these are just distractions?



I agree, I don't think any WILD guide (that I've read so far) is particularly that good for how it truly works. They focus too much on the scientific nature of it and generally get it all wrong anyway.

I also get HI pretty soon after laying down, particularly with a nap. I've never experienced SP before it.

----------


## Sageous

> Sometimes I experience stuff like ringing ears and 'shocks' in my right hemisphere, these are just distractions?



Yup; and reminding yourself that that's all they are when they occur will only make the WILD easier...

----------


## enak101

Yeah, I'd agree that the main reason is lucid dreams at command but I think SP and HH and HI and all that could be fun to experience. That depends on if I'm going to DEILD or not, been trying DEILD but keep moving after waking up. Thanks for the lesson, predominant reason is to still get lucids not HH etc.

----------


## Sydney

I'm almost done reading today's session.  :smiley:  But I just wanted to ask this:

Some people around the forum say that WILD attempts take at least one hour to an hour and 30 minutes to actually enter the dream from the waking state.
Is this true?

----------


## RareCola

> I'm almost done reading today's session.  But I just wanted to ask this:
> 
> Some people around the forum say that WILD attempts take at least one hour to an hour and 30 minutes to actually enter the dream from the waking state.
> Is this true?



I believe, if it's taking you that long to WILD, you're doing something wrong.

----------


## Sydney

> I believe, if it's taking you that long to WILD, you're doing something wrong.



Yeah, I don't know. I remember Naiya or Mzzkc saying something about if it takes longer than 45 minutes, give up.
Because really, I wouldn't want to wait that long anyway. But I don't know, I guess it depends on the person.

----------


## Sageous

> I'm almost done reading today's session.  But I just wanted to ask this:
> 
> Some people around the forum say that WILD attempts take at least one hour to an hour and 30 minutes to actually enter the dream from the waking state.
> Is this true?



That's a curious question, Sydney!

No, it is not true. WILD attempts take as long as they take (meaning the time spent WILDing depends entirely on the person, and the condition of that person, doing the WILDing).  There is no assigned length.  

I've had WILD attempts that lasted just a few minutes -- indeed, DEILD's can last as little as a second or two, but that might not count here -- or they could take an hour or more... It all depends on focus, physics, and timing.  But if someone's telling you there is a minimum time required to properly WILD, that someone is mistaken.  Try not to take such pronouncements seriously... Which I suppose is what this week's session is all about.  So I guess your question makes sense after all!

----------


## Sageous

> I believe, if it's taking you that long to WILD, you're doing something wrong.



Not necessarily.  If your timing was off, or if you're a bit pokey in collecting your self for the WILD, or if you're amazingly slow at relaxing and falling asleep,  then you could find yourself lying there in wait for well over an hour.  It happens.

Now, though I may be the type to give up on my WILD attempt after 90 minutes or so, I can also confirm from experience (mine and other's) that WiLD's can be encountered _after_ a couple of hours of waiting.  There is no "official" time limit for WILD, and if a person's psyche is tuned, for instance, to waiting for the next REM cycle for WILD to occur, then they might not be doing anything wrong if they have to wait an hour or two.  

I think Session Three's theme fits here as well, in that it is not a great idea to assume something about WILD (or anything) must be true because you read it on a website... That of course goes for anything I say, too!

----------


## Sageous

> Yeah, I don't know. I remember Naiya or Mzzkc saying something about if it takes longer than 45 minutes, give up.
> Because really, I wouldn't want to wait that long anyway. But I don't know, I guess it depends on the person.



Sydney, only give up when _you_ think it's time to give up, and not when someone tells you to do so!  

As a matter of fact, you shouldn't even have this thought in your head:  What if your mind "scheduled" you to take two hours to complete a WILD, and after one hour you start remembering that knowledgable folks on the WEB told you it shouldn't take this long?  Wouldn't that possibly cause you to give up, or at least cloud your mind with enough doubt that you can't go on?  Think about it...

Trust me, Sydney, with practice you'll know when it's time to "give up," and that time will vary from WILD to WILD.  Try not to attach limits to the process, because then the process will have limits.

----------


## Sydney

Okay, thank you Sageous.  :smiley: 

I just remembered a question I wanted to ask earlier but was too afraid to ask it  :tongue2:  Lol I guess I'll ask it now:

When waking up for WBTB directly after a REM cycle, wouldn't you have to wait (whether it be during the WBTB or whilst doing a WILD attempt) until the next REM cycle happens, and then you'll enter a dream?

If that didn't make sense, here's an example:

Say I wake up right after a REM cycle to use the restroom. If I stay up for about 5 minutes after that and then get back in bed and try to WILD, won't it take more than an hour to reach the dream state, since I wasn't in REM at the time?

----------


## Taffy

Wow, what a wakeup call. Every time I tried WILD in the past I was waiting for "the noise." I'm glad you made the point that the hallucinations and noise shouldn't be the goal, the lucid dream itself is. I'm also curious about Sydney's question, too.

----------


## Sageous

> Okay, thank you Sageous. 
> 
> I just remembered a question I wanted to ask earlier but was too afraid to ask it  Lol I guess I'll ask it now:
> 
> When waking up for WBTB directly after a REM cycle, wouldn't you have to wait (whether it be during the WBTB or whilst doing a WILD attempt) until the next REM cycle happens, and then you'll enter a dream?



Yes.  

 But not all that long, if you're doing WBTB well into (5 hours or more) your night's/morning's sleep:





> If that didn't make sense, here's an example:
> 
> Say I wake up right after a REM cycle to use the restroom. If I stay up for about 5 minutes after that and then get back in bed and try to WILD, won't it take more than an hour to reach the dream state, since I wasn't in REM at the time?



The reason it is a good idea to do WILD very late in your sleep cycle is because by then your REM cycles will be very close together -- even jammed together with very little NREM time between them, if you've already slept for many hours.

So yes, you do have to wait for your next REM cycle, but no, you will not have to wait for an hour if you are well along in your sleep cycles.  Indeed, because REM cycles are closer and closer together as your night's/morning's sleep lingers on, you'll likely have a very short wait for the next cycle.  As a matter of fact, I suggest that WBTB should never last more than 45 minutes in the morning, because you want to _avoid_ being up for longer than it takes to get to your next REM cycle...which could very well be scheduled to start right after that restroom break!

This of course is why WBTB is done late in your sleep cycle, instead of when you go to bed.

Good question, Sydney -- no need to have been afraid to ask!

----------


## Ctharlhie

On the subject of SP vs Non-REM phenomenon, do you think those infamous 'waves' of energy/numbness/whathaveyou are in fact the process of dissociating from sensory input and resultant sensory deprivation as the body and mind fall into Non-REM sleep? In sleep (not dream) yoga the state aimed for is 'absence of vision' (that is, total sensory deprivation). 
When I was falling asleep normally last night I felt those waves, I'd already had some HI and it occurred to me that what I was experiencing wasn't the onset of SP but conscious transition into delta sleep. However, I lost consciousness soon after.

----------


## Sydney

> The reason it is a good idea to do WILD very late in your sleep cycle is because by then your REM cycles will be very close together -- even jammed together with very little NREM time between them, if you've already slept for many hours.
> 
> So yes, you do have to wait for your next REM cycle, but no, you will not have to wait for an hour if you are well along in your sleep cycles.  Indeed, because REM cycles are closer and closer together as your night's/morning's sleep lingers on, you'll likely have a very short wait for the next cycle.  As a matter of fact, I suggest that WBTB should never last more than 45 minutes in the morning, because you want to _avoid_ being up for longer than it takes to get to your next REM cycle...which could very well be scheduled to start right after that restroom break!
> 
> This of course is why WBTB is done late in your sleep cycle, instead of when you go to bed.
> 
> Good question, Sydney -- no need to have been afraid to ask!



Thanks again, Sageous.  ::D:  I understand better how WBTB works now, hahaha.
Oh and yesterday's session was quite excellent ^^ I used to be looking for the "noise" whenever I did WILD attempts, but then you said it was merely a distraction. Makes sense.
It would be kinda cool to experience it though.  :smiley:  I've never really experienced it before except for these weird whale noises I heard. I thought that someone was watching a whale movie or something downstairs lol.

----------


## paigeyemps

Oh wow I had 2 back to back lucids this morning. I had to get up for about 30 minutes to prepare food for my sick mom, and when I went back to bed, I got lucid. It turned out to be a WBTB! 

Also, in both of those lucids, out of nowhere I just got the urge to RRC, and bam! These were the first lucids I got since RRCing, and I don't know if it's related to vividity, but I noticed that they were both extremely vivid (most vivid ones I've had so far). So realistic, in fact, that I had to do physical RCs a lot just to really make sure. 

All throughout the dreams, I had this constant feeling of being truly myself (awareness?), which made me even more lucid, if that makes any sense. Anyway, RRC's are definitely helpful indeed! =)

----------


## Sageous

> On the subject of SP vs Non-REM phenomenon, do you think those infamous 'waves' of energy/numbness/whathaveyou are in fact the process of dissociating from sensory input and resultant sensory deprivation as the body and mind fall into Non-REM sleep? In sleep (not dream) yoga the state aimed for is 'absence of vision' (that is, total sensory deprivation).



Yes, I believe those things are likely just more "noise" that you're noticing during that process of dissociation -- and the sleep yogis will be the first to tell you that even after the 'absence of vision' is in place, there is still the threat of still more intrusion of noise (ne reason there are very few Sleep Yogis in successful practice!). Definitely not SP, and, I believe, nothing supernatural.  That's not too deep and meaningful, I suppose, but much more_ likely_, and, given that even that delta noise is not helpful to the tasks at hand for sleep yoga, still very much a distraction. 





> When I was falling asleep normally last night I felt those waves, I'd already had some HI and it occurred to me that what I was experiencing wasn't the onset of SP but conscious transition into delta sleep. However, I lost consciousness soon after.



I think you were right.  After you perfect your WILD skills, you should be able to stay conscious through delta sleep.  Of course, "perfect your WILD skills" is a helluva statement!   :wink2:

----------


## Sageous

> Thanks again, Sageous.  I understand better how WBTB works now, hahaha.
> Oh and yesterday's session was quite excellent ^^ I used to be looking for the "noise" whenever I did WILD attempts, but then you said it was merely a distraction. Makes sense.
> It would be kinda cool to experience it though.  I've never really experienced it before except for these weird whale noises I heard. I thought that someone was watching a whale movie or something downstairs lol.



There's nothing wrong with_ noticing_ the noise, Sydney -- just as long as you do not make it too important or, worse, the real priority of your dive. In fact, it would be best to notice it after you wake up, if that makes sense.  

... And, of course, don't let the "rush" that can accompany the noise erase your WILD!

----------


## Sageous

> Oh wow I had 2 back to back lucids this morning. I had to get up for about 30 minutes to prepare food for my sick mom, and when I went back to bed, I got lucid. It turned out to be a WBTB! 
> 
> Also, in both of those lucids, out of nowhere I just got the urge to RRC, and bam! These were the first lucids I got since RRCing, and I don't know if it's related to vividity, but I noticed that they were both extremely vivid (most vivid ones I've had so far). So realistic, in fact, that I had to do physical RCs a lot just to really make sure. 
> 
> All throughout the dreams, I had this constant feeling of being truly myself (awareness?), which made me even more lucid, if that makes any sense. Anyway, RRC's are definitely helpful indeed! =)



That's good news, paigeyemps!  I hadn't thought about RRC's increasing vividness too, but I suppose that's possible.  It's great that they're helping with your self-awareness -- don't let this success relax your habit of doing them. though!

----------


## Strit

Just to understand this _noise_ a bit better: Sometimes, just before I fall asleep, my thoughts become "wird". I'll be thinking about something quite sane and then suddenly realize that I'm falling asleep and am now thinking about purple cats in my fridge (or something similar). If I happen to be talking to my boyfriend while it happens I'll start talking about the purple cats as well. It also happens sometimes when I try to meditate (and I'm not very good at it, so I might be falling asleep there as well).
So if dreams don't start till much later, what is it then? Is it HI?

----------


## Sageous

> Just to understand this _noise_ a bit better: Sometimes, just before I fall asleep, my thoughts become "weird". I'll be thinking about something quite sane and then suddenly realize that I'm falling asleep and am now thinking about purple cats in my fridge (or something similar). If I happen to be talking to my boyfriend while it happens I'll start talking about the purple cats as well. It also happens sometimes when I try to meditate (and I'm not very good at it, so I might be falling asleep there as well).
> So if dreams don't start till much later, what is it then? Is it HI?



That, Strit, is a different kind of noise altogether, one with which I'm sadly all too familiar!  

The noise I'm talking about is the natural stuff that accompanies everyone's normal regression into sleep (and ought to be treated that way).  I think what you're talking about are mental distractions -- annoying moments when your thoughts wander and, at times of meditation or WILD, seem to become forces unto themselves.  I suppose it could be a form of HI, if you're also seeing the cats, or feeling their presence, but I think it's just a case of wandering thoughts, especially if they're even crowding into your conversations with your boyfriend.

This happens to me all the time (I'm a very bad at meditating, and find my mind ticking off unplanned thoughts (usually things like plans for my next art project, or rehashes of things I said wrong that day, or a rundown of tomorrows chores -- no purple cats  :wink2: ) within a few minutes.

The good news is that that kind of noise can be dealt with, because thoughts, no matter how unruly, come _from you_ and can be stopped, or at least ignored, by you with some effort.  The bad news is that if you're anything like me that effort is enormous -- I've tried every kind of meditation, from guided to machines, and almost nothing works (I really get annoyed when some guru says, "just let the thoughts flow by you like a pleasant stream -- yeah, right!).  About the only thing that does work for me is white noise -- I use a fan and a special machine, and together they seem to fill my head with enough empty static that at least a couple of thoughts are drowned out!  Beyond that, the best you can do is try to remember to go back to your primary thoughts when things like purple cats interfere, and struggle to maintain their priority (the primary thoughts -- not the purple cats).

Now, in the case that I'm wrong and the cats _are_ HI, our next session will include a bit about how to use HI as foundations for forming dreams. Hopefully what I have to say then will help. So, in the end, the purple cats might not be a bad thing at all. 

Also, in a later session we'll be talking about DEILD, where you can circumvent unruly thoughts altogether by never really waking up; that might help as well, though the purple cats will have been left behind...

I hope that made sense ... let me know if it didn't.

----------


## Strit

I guess I_ am_ like you when it comes to unruly thoughts. It sounds like you are describing _me_ when _I_ try to meditate. 
I certainly don't_ see_ the cats (or whatever it is) so it must be just stray thoughts, but they are not like anything I would ever think of while fully awake, so somehow they are related to falling asleep.

I feel like I have a lot of work ahead of me.

----------


## Sageous

> I guess I_ am_ like you when it comes to unruly thoughts. It sounds like you are describing _me_ when _I_ try to meditate. I certainly don't_ see_ the cats (or whatever it is) so it must be just stray thoughts, but they are not like anything I would ever think of while fully awake, so somehow they are related to falling asleep.



It could be related to falling asleep, but why not just _make it_ related regardless?  Just as you might recognize the "normal" noise as milestones, maybe you can incorporate the stray thoughts, rather than just be distracted by them -- "see" them as they occur as just more steps toward dreaming, places you visit on the way to your dream.  Ironically, the process of recognizing them might be enough to diminish their impact.  I'm not sure that will work, and it sounds suspiciously like the jamoke who once told me to regard my stray thoughts as a passing stream, but who knows? 

And again, Tuesday's session has some ideas for forming dreams from HI; you ought to be able to use the same template for these thoughts.





> I feel like I have a lot of work ahead of me.



But it can be fun work...and the rewards are excellent!

----------


## littlezoe

So i just read the 3rd post, about noise  :smiley: 

What i have to add to this is that i was always focusing on getting to SP in my WILD attempts so far... Now i see how wrong it is... as even just focusing too much on what sensations i will experience tend to distract me and ruin the WILD attempt :/
I try to imagine something, the dream environment for example where i want to find myself, but i always get distracted by those sensations and i unintentionally focus on them  :Sad: 
But maybe you'll post something related to the imagining part later on  :smiley: 

Oh and another thing: I tend to have SPs often when i wake up from a dream, which is great for DEILD and thanks to this i know the feeling of SP well.
Now the thing is that sometimes when doing WILD, i tend to feel similar vibrations like in SP, but in a weaker form. The problem with this is that i only feel it on my bottom half. I mean it moves up from my toes to my waist, then it just stops... Do you have any idea why is this? I suspected for a while that SP is about to begin, but i'm not so sure anymore, since it just suddenly stops when it gets to my waist... and SP vibrations are stronger as well...

----------


## Sageous

> ...
> I try to imagine something, the dream environment for example where i want to find myself, but i always get distracted by those sensations and i unintentionally focus on them  But maybe you'll post something related to the imagining part later on



As a matter of fact, Tuesday's session talks about forming the dream and touches on imagination; though I hope there'll be more talk that later.  





> Oh and another thing: I tend to have SPs often when i wake up from a dream, which is great for DEILD and thanks to this i know the feeling of SP well. Now the thing is that sometimes when doing WILD, i tend to feel similar vibrations like in SP, but in a weaker form. The problem with this is that i only feel it on my bottom half. I mean it moves up from my toes to my waist, then it just stops... Do you have any idea why is this? I suspected for a while that SP is about to begin, but i'm not so sure anymore, since it just suddenly stops when it gets to my waist... and SP vibrations are stronger as well...



Nope, I haven't a clue why this might happen, except maybe that you've simply "discovered" yourself halfway through the process, with SP still half on (or off, I suppose).  But, like the rest of the noise, you needn't do more than simply notice it and move on to your WILD.

----------


## Ctharlhie

> As a matter of fact, Tuesday's session talks about forming the dream and touches on imagination; though I hope there'll be more talk that later.



This is the lesson I've been looking forward to most as I'm interested in V-WILD  :smiley:

----------


## littlezoe

> Nope, I haven't a clue why this might happen, except maybe that you've simply "discovered" yourself halfway through the process, with SP still half on (or off, I suppose).  But, like the rest of the noise, you needn't do more than simply notice it and move on to your WILD.



Well, when this happens i'm constantly conscious, aware of everything around me... i don't lose consciousness at times like this... Kinda weird.. maybe it's just some meaningless sensation and i shouldn't care about it, just as you said  :smiley:

----------


## Sageous

> Maybe it's just some meaningless sensation and i shouldn't care about it, just as you said



I think so...especially if the act of caring about it gets in the way of decent dreaming.

----------


## Sageous

*WILD Session 4: Mental Prep Part 2 -- Forming Your Dreams* is posted.

Enjoy!

----------


## RareCola

Just read Session 4, and I have to take a time out to say sometimes I feel like this class is greatly under-appreciated. You are doing a mind-blowingly awesome job of describing everything in the most easy to understand yet in-depth ways and I truly appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us.

Anyway, back on topic. I'm really glad you posted a session about forming your dreams, in my DEILDs (all 2 of them, haha) I've started in my room and simply explored the normal world around me. While these are still great experiences, particularly as I'm new to lucid dreaming, I can't wait to start using some of these forming techniques you described in this session.

I particularly enjoyed the "blob moulding" method you brought up. I'm an artist, and the idea of this just fascinates me and really focuses on one my greatest goals for lucid dreaming, which is to use my lucid dreams for artistic inspiration.

Besides light though, could you give any more examples of random shapes in the real world, i'm having issues discovering things that schemas wouldn't automatically just associate with what the object actually is. Clouds seem like a great one, any others?

----------


## Sageous

Thanks for your kind words, RareCola; they are appreciated. Thanks also for continuing to pay attention.

Now:




> Besides light though, could you give any more examples of random shapes in the real world, i'm having issues discovering things that schemas wouldn't automatically just associate with what the object actually is. Clouds seem like a great one, any others?



Actually, feel free to notice objects that your mind can identify quickly; as you noticed it cannot be helped. 

The root of the exercise is to catch your mind establishing schemas, or at least being aware of the action occurring.  For instance, you might see a small oval object in the corner of your eye.  Without looking too closely at it, imagine what it might be -- maybe a rock, or a football, or a bush, or even a Volkswagon.  Then look at the object, notice its context, and imagine all the schemas your mind may have scanned before reaching the conclusion that the object was a sleeping dog.  

It's not about randomness, it is about considering how your mind can _eliminate_ the randomness by observing the object, its context and condition, and then choosing the best schema to define the object (not to mention the many schemas it also chose to establish the context). 

That said, random shapes exist all over the place in nature -- clouds, flowing streams, moving traffic, crowds of people, drifting snow, spilled milk, etc, etc.  The thing is, though, that your mind will find and attach a schema to define _any_ shape it sees, even clouds, so that randomness is not long-lived.

As usual I hope that made sense;  if it did not, please ask again...this stuff is important.

----------


## RareCola

> Thanks for your kind words, RareCola; they are appreciated. Thanks also for continuing to pay attention.
> 
> Now:
> 
> 
> Actually, feel free to notice objects that your mind can identify quickly; as you noticed it cannot be helped. 
> 
> The root of the exercise is to catch your mind establishing schemas, or at least being aware of the action occurring.  For instance, you might see a small oval object in the corner of your eye.  Without looking too closely at it, imagine what it might be -- maybe a rock, or a football, or a bush, or even a Volkswagon.  Then look at the object, notice its context, and imagine all the schemas your mind may have scanned before reaching the conclusion that the object was a sleeping dog.  
> 
> ...



Alright, I understand. I think the issue I was having before was I was initially focusing too much on the object, the idea of catching something in the corner of my eye seems perfect!

----------


## Taffy

I think I look forward to the lessons more and more with each coming week.  :wink2:  I really like the way you explained playing with the HI, pretty much every other tutorial I've read doesn't go into all that much detail about it.

I should really do more RRCs, too, I have been forgetting lately because I'm busy thinking about projects I have to do, finals that are coming up, etc.

----------


## RareCola

> I should really do more RRCs, too, I have been forgetting lately because I'm busy thinking about projects I have to do, finals that are coming up, etc.



I've been having similar forgetful issues because my last week has been full of spontaneous work and stress. Currently going a dry spell because of it too so RRCs are easy to forget amongst everything. Thinking about buying a bracelet or something then doing RRCs and such every time I feel it, as per Sageous' suggestion.

----------


## Taffy

> I've been having similar forgetful issues because my last week has been full of spontaneous work and stress. Currently going a dry spell because of it too so RRCs are easy to forget amongst everything. Thinking about buying a bracelet or something then doing RRCs and such every time I feel it, as per Sageous' suggestion.



That sounds like a good idea, I may try that too.

----------


## littlezoe

Just read mental prep 2. The lessons are getting more and more interesting, even while i use these "expectations" and "schemas" since long in my dreams  :smiley:  For me, this is the easiest way to change scenes or make something appear in a dream. 
Althrough i didn't really think about using them intentionally during WILD, so that's a good idea you gave me Sageous  :smiley: 

I'm also doing the RRCs less often these days than before :/ But that's just probably because i'm more busy than usual  :Sad:

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## RareCola

Starting to remember to do RRCs more often, getting more into the "imagery" sense of RRCs now, rather than worded questions. I find it's easier to remember to do also.

I've been doing the schema thing quite a lot, actually, but I had another question. When looking at something and you know what it is, is it still worth examining it for a few seconds to see how your mind associates the shape with other things? For example, I was looking at a flower today and while I knew it was a flower I was examining how it also looked like a firework or maybe a ferris wheel.

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## Sageous

> Starting to remember to do RRCs more often, getting more into the "imagery" sense of RRCs now, rather than worded questions. I find it's easier to remember to do also.
> 
> I've been doing the schema thing quite a lot, actually, but I had another question. When looking at something and you know what it is, is it still worth examining it for a few seconds to see how your mind associates the shape with other things? For example, I was looking at a flower today and while I knew it was a flower I was examining how it also looked like a firework or maybe a ferris wheel.



Yes, things you already identified are well worth examining, just for the reason you state:  If you take a moment and imagine how many other potential things that flower might have been before your mind set on the "flower" schema, you can also imagine how much is involved in correctly establishing even the simplest of schemas.  With that in mind, you might now be able to do some extra mental prep for the variations you might encounter should you attempt to build your own dream schemas during WILD...

----------


## Taffy

I have a quick question, can locations be used as schema? I was in school while doing the schema practice, and a textbook caught my eye. I thought about it, and just the fact that it was located in a school (as well as it being rectangular in shape) was enough to give away that it was a textbook.

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## Ctharlhie

locations certainly have schemata attached to them, if that textbook appeared in your HI you mind may form a schoolroom scene around it based on your schemata for school.

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## Sageous

^^ What he said!

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## Taffy

Okay, thanks.

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## Ametam

Ok, I've tried doing this schemata thing wrong. Say I'm on a bus and looking out the window and I see a tree. Am I ment to think, Trees, Ground, Dirt, Birds, bark, things that are associated with trees? Or am I ment to look at the leaves and think what else could those leaves be?

I'v been trying the latter but i'm not sure if I should be doing tha or the first optiont?

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## Sageous

> Ok, I've tried doing this schemata thing wrong. Say I'm on a bus and looking out the window and I see a tree. Am I meant to think, Trees, Ground, Dirt, Birds, bark, things that are associated with trees? Or am I meant to look at the leaves and think what else could those leaves be? I've been trying the latter but I'm not sure if I should be doing that or the first option?



You were right to be trying the latter, and thinking about what else the leaves could be is a fine idea; this is not an association exercise, and you don't need to decide what was _with_ the tree, you need to think about how the image of "tree" became the schema correctly chosen by your mind...that's why I said to spot an object and imagine, just at a glance, all the things that object could be -- for instance earlier I think suggested that RareCola  glimpse an oval shape in the corner of his eye, and, without looking too closely at it, imagine what it might be -- maybe a rock, or a football, or a bush, or even a Volkswagon. Then look at the object, notice its context, and imagine all the schemas your mind may have scanned before reaching the conclusion that the object was a sleeping dog.  It's not about observing the dog and its environment, it's about understanding all the other things your mind may have cataloged the dog as before it came to the conclusion that that oval shape was a dog.

So, yes, you were correct to imagine what else those leaves could be, but you should also try to work from the beginning -- spot a shape without really looking at it, and think of all the things it could be -- then look at the shape directly, and admire how quickly your mind solves the mystery.  This will be more helpful in your WILD, because you can "give" your mind shapes to attach schemas to (remember that Swiss chalet from the session) by associating the shapes directly with the intention and expectation you also should have brought along.

Let me know if that was unclear...

----------


## Frobthebuilder

When I do an RRC, I get this subtle sensation within myself, sort of a "lift". It's like I'm suddenly slightly lighter. Does anybody else get this?

----------


## Strit

> I should really do more RRCs, too, I have been forgetting lately (...)



Ditto





> Currently going a dry spell because of it too so RRCs are easy to forget amongst everything.



Ditto





> I'm also doing the RRCs less often these days than before :/



And ditto.

Glad to see I'm not the only one  :wink2: . It's so hard to keep during it. I tried having a little thing in my pocket to remind me and it worked for about a week and then I forgot about it again. The best ever reminder is to read the lesson here every week and get back on track. So, Sageous, even though I'm not always posting or asking question, I'm still here reading. And I'm sure I'm not the only one!






> When I do an RRC, I get this subtle sensation within myself, sort of a "lift". It's like I'm suddenly slightly lighter. Does anybody else get this?



I think I know what you mean, but it's so very very subtle  :smiley:

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## Sageous

> ). It's so hard to keep during it. I tried having a little thing in my pocket to remind me and it worked for about a week and then I forgot about it again. The best ever reminder is to read the lesson here every week and get back on track. So, Sageous, even though I'm not always posting or asking question, I'm still here reading. And I'm sure I'm not the only one!



Glad to know you're still with us, Strit -- and remember, the best stuff is never easy!  

One quick note about the reminder object in your pocket:  it is a good idea to change it regularly, just for the reason you stated.  We all seem programmed to get used to things, no matter how odd, so it is important to maintain novelty to stave off complacence.

Thanks for hanging in there, everyone...the home stretch is just around the corner!

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## Sageous

*WILD Session 5: Mantras and Why They Matter* is now up.

    Enjoy!

----------


## Ctharlhie

Again, I have to say both how much I am enjoying this course and also what a great piece of work it is as a study of the mechanics of WILDing, these threads should be archived and preserved for prosperity. I like the academic and analytical approach of this week's lesson, the course has gone further and deeper into the subject of WILD than I could have hoped/expected.  :smiley: 

As for my mantra, I'm going with 'maya'. When I read Robert Waggoner's 'Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self', the phrase maya struck a definite and profound chord with me. For anyone unfamiliar it's a sanskrit term meaning 'illusion', 'creative power' and 'reality creation' and the implication of it in wider Hindu and Buddhist teaching is that we create the phenomenological world around us. A concept, I'm sure you'll agree, that is directly applicable to lucid dreaming.

It's meaningful on a few levels. Reading 'GttIS' had a massive effect on my lucid dreaming practices, the phrase has the 'weight' of possibly thousands of years of philosophical thinking on dreams and reality, and the word has a nice cadence and overall sound to it. Also, using a phrase that tells me to consider my surroundings as an illusion I have created should lead to lucidity.

----------


## Sageous

> As for my mantra, I'm going with 'maya'. When I read Robert Waggoner's 'Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self', the phrase maya struck a definite and profound chord with me. For anyone unfamiliar it's a sanskrit term meaning 'illusion', 'creative power' and 'reality creation' and the implication of it in wider Hindu and Buddhist teaching is that we create the phenomenological world around us. A concept, I'm sure you'll agree, that is directly applicable to lucid dreaming.
> 
> It's meaningful on a few levels. Reading 'GttIS' had a massive effect on my lucid dreaming practices, the phrase has the 'weight' of possibly thousands of years of philosophical thinking on dreams and reality, and the word has a nice cadence and overall sound to it. Also, using a phrase that tells me to consider my surroundings as an illusion I have created should lead to lucidity.



So you've chosen to accept a mantra as provided you by a guru... 

That's fine in your case, Chtarlhie, because from what I've read in your many posts is that you are heavily involved in this stuff, and that the word "maya" already has deep meaning to you, so its repetition will likely help you. 

One caveat for you, though:  maya, thanks to its age, multiple meanings, and level of importance in the Hindu and Buddhist traditions, carries quite a bit of mythological baggage that, ironically, could interfere with your WILD dives.  In a sense, you run the risk of attaching "someone else's" meaning to your dream, and not your own, or, worse, its meaning will eclipse the importance of your own self-awareness in the dream, and lucidity might be sacrificed for a (albeit likely excellent) maya-based non-lucid...I don't believe this will happen to you, but the possibility is there...try to remember that as you recite maya during your WILD.

*Another small warning for the rest of you:*  Though Ctharlhie likely chose his mantra well because his life is focused in the direction of a mantra like "maya," keep in mind that it is still an off-the-shelf mantra provided by a guru.  If no meaning other than "this word is important because important people said it" can be attached to it.  Be very careful about using someone else's mantra instead of choosing one of your own, because you might not get what you need out of it.  In the end your mantra should be a reflection of you, your intentions, and, yes, your dreams; don't allow it to be a reflection of someone else, not matter how awesome that someone else might be...

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## RareCola

Another great session! Now to actually find a mantra unique and meaningful to myself. I'm terrible with these kind of things because I tend to end up being influenced by things I've previously read and such. I'll take some meditation time and try and come up with something tonight though.

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## Frobthebuilder

I gotta say, I'm really liking this class. Thanks for that.

Ha, I thought of a good mantra. "I see the light." It _is_ a little symbolic, but not too much. "Light" in this case has two meanings. Either "dream", or something a little more encompassing, "success".

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## CJC

I can't help but be distracted by the mantra while i WILD. It is just too much the main focus of my mind, and if I focus on it too much, then after a while I forget to keep repeating it. How do I keep it going without focusing on it?

also, on  scale of 1-10, how symbolic does it need to be?

thanks

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## Sageous

> Ha, I thought of a good mantra. "I see the light." It _is_ a little symbolic, but not too much. "Light" in this case has two meanings. Either "dream", or something a little more encompassing, "success".



That's a good one.  Just be careful that if you do see light in hypnagogic or nascent dream form that you don't attach too much significance.  Of course, I suppose you can do the opposite, and actually use your mantra to help illuminate the dream, but once again be very careful about letting the mantra define the dream (the "deeper" ones can do that) and cause you to lose lucidity.

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## Sageous

> I can't help but be distracted by the mantra while i WILD. It is just too much the main focus of my mind, and if I focus on it too much, then after a while I forget to keep repeating it. How do I keep it going without focusing on it?
> 
> also, on  scale of 1-10, how symbolic does it need to be?



Distraction is definitely a bad thing, but your mantra must have _some_ presence, or else it just won't work.  A balance is certainly needed!

I think your question about how symbolic the mantra needs to be indicates that you might be taking the mantra itself too seriously.  Your mantra can score a "1" on that scale and still work just fine.  For WILD, your mantra is not about symbolism, or the stand-alone significance of the mantra itself (that's why I suggested staying away from guru-provided or off-the-shelf mantras, because they often represent something other than your interests, and that something is often important -- and potentially distracting).  If you can keep focused simply by repeating a common word, then do so.  For instance, you could repeat "string" as a mantra if you also happen to be wearing a string around your finger to remind you to RRC.  The word on its own doesn't mean much, but it carries enough meaning to you to keep you focused.

So don't worry about the symbolism or significance of the word or words that comprise your mantra; be concerned instead about whether your mantra means something to you, and your dreams.

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## hermine_hesse

I chose "Be Here, Be Aware"  as my mantra.  I find my biggest obstacle with WILDs is that I fall asleep too quickly.  Within a few minuets of lying down, I am asleep.  I loose lucidity and am in a dream before I know what happened.  My mantra reminds me to be present in the moment and retain awareness as I enter the dreamworld, but is also reflective of my waking life goals.

I have used mantras much in the past, but all were either "off the shelf" mantras or geared toward a future intention.  I had never thought of using a present tense mantra.  I will definitely be using this mantra both when falling asleep, in RRCs and meditation.

Last night I tried out my mantra and had a DILD!

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## Sageous

Excellent choice, Hermine, for all the right reasons.

Nice to see (but not a surprise) that it's already begun to work for you!

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## RareCola

The only thing that's come to mind for a mantra so far has been "Remain Constant." -- I tend to have issues with constantly keeping enough focus to repeat a mantra while still allowing myself to fall asleep, I usually tip on one end of the scale too much. Would this be a good mantra?

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## Sageous

> The only thing that's come to mind for a mantra so far has been "Remain Constant." -- I tend to have issues with constantly keeping enough focus to repeat a mantra while still allowing myself to fall asleep, I usually tip on one end of the scale too much. Would this be a good mantra?



It's a good start, because it carries a remedy that certainly means something to you.  

I would hesitate though on the phrase itself -- this may sound odd, but is "remain constant" something you want to be repeating to yourself, over and over, for an hour or more?  If it is, that's great, but it seems a bit clinical to me; coldly commanding...I also fear it might start making me thinking of taking a potty break, but that's just me!

So if you're comfortable with the phrase, you've made a good choice.  If not, then keep thinking about other words that offer similar meaning, like "stay here," or "keep to the path," or perhaps just "I am here."

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## RareCola

> It's a good start, because it carries a remedy that certainly means something to you.  
> 
> I would hesitate though on the phrase itself -- this may sound odd, but is "remain constant" something you want to be repeating to yourself, over and over, for an hour or more?  If it is, that's great, but it seems a bit clinical to me; coldly commanding...I also fear it might start making me thinking of taking a potty break, but that's just me!
> 
> So if you're comfortable with the phrase, you've made a good choice.  If not, then keep thinking about other words that offer similar meaning, like "stay here," or "keep to the path," or perhaps just "I am here."



I see your point, I think I'll give "remain constant" a go and see how it feels in practice when we actually get to WILDing. Otherwise I'll use something like "stay on track".

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## TheGrimRose

I think I found a mantra I may be wanting to be using. It is "flow with the wind." I chose it because I feel like sometimes I am focusing too hard on something to happen such as a ld, but instead I should be flowing with the wind letting it take me where ever it wants to. Hows that mantra sound?

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## Taffy

Having a hard time coming up with one myself. :/

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## Sageous

> I think I found a mantra I may be wanting to be using. It is "flow with the wind." I chose it because I feel like sometimes I am focusing too hard on something to happen such as a ld, but instead I should be flowing with the wind letting it take me where ever it wants to. Hows that mantra sound?



Sounds good!  You might consider simplifying it to something like "flowing wind," or "With the wind," or maybe just "Wind." That might make it easier to repeat without losing any meaning.  And of course that meaning shouldn't be lost with the consolidation because you've picked a mantra that you'll understand at the slightest mention -- and that's the part that matters.

Nice work!

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## Sageous

> Having a hard time coming up with one myself. :/



Uh Oh!

What you might do then is think about some aspect of LD'ing that is important to you, like "freedom," or "adventure," or "exploration," or something else altogether; but just ask yourself why LD'ing matters, and then whittle your answer down to an easily repeated word or phrase.

Remember that the mantra itself doesn't need to be "deep and meaningful" on its face; it only needs to carry some meaning to you and be easy to repeat.  If you still can't come up with one within a day or two let me know and we'll try something else.

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## CJC

> Distraction is definitely a bad thing, but your mantra must have _some_ presence, or else it just won't work.  A balance is certainly needed!
> 
> I think your question about how symbolic the mantra needs to be indicates that you might be taking the mantra itself too seriously.  Your mantra can score a "1" on that scale and still work just fine.  For WILD, your mantra is not about symbolism, or the stand-alone significance of the mantra itself (that's why I suggested staying away from guru-provided or off-the-shelf mantras, because they often represent something other than your interests, and that something is often important -- and potentially distracting).  If you can keep focused simply by repeating a common word, then do so.  For instance, you could repeat "string" as a mantra if you also happen to be wearing a string around your finger to remind you to RRC.  The word on its own doesn't mean much, but it carries enough meaning to you to keep you focused.
> 
> So don't worry about the symbolism or significance of the word or words that comprise your mantra; be concerned instead about whether your mantra means something to you, and your dreams.



Thankyou for ther advice. I understand more about the purpose of mantras now and i will come up with a good one. Ill post it ASAP

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## littlezoe

You know, Sageous... I really like your way of doing these courses.

I feel like this is a much better way than creating a personal "workbook"  :smiley:  It brings people together more and if something is not clear, that can be answered here in this thread, where the others who might have the same problem can read it too... unlike a workbook where mostly just the tutors and the owner of it check in.

I'm gonna try and think out a mantra soon  :smiley:

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## Taffy

> Uh Oh!
> 
> What you might do then is think about some aspect of LD'ing that is important to you, like "freedom," or "adventure," or "exploration," or something else altogether; but just ask yourself why LD'ing matters, and then whittle your answer down to an easily repeated word or phrase.
> 
> Remember that the mantra itself doesn't need to be "deep and meaningful" on its face; it only needs to carry some meaning to you and be easy to repeat.  If you still can't come up with one within a day or two let me know and we'll try something else.



How about something like "I am unlocking lucidity?" Or is that not good?

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## Sageous

> How about something like "I am unlocking lucidity?" Or is that not good?



That's a pretty good one -- you could even shorten it to "Unlock lucidity," just for repetition's sake.  

You should be careful, though, because this still might be too general; make sure you don't let "lucidity" just become another word...also, be sure to leave yourself open to anther mantra, should it wander your way!

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## Strit

I've chosen "Jeg er på vej" which is Danish and in normal conversations would translate to "I'm on my way", but it could also mean something more like "I'm on the right path" or "I'm going in the right direction".  I chose it because I consider my dive into lucid dreaming to be a lifelong travel that I'm embarking on and I feel like I need to assure my self of this choice. But I also chose it because I fall asleep very quickly and have problems keeping aware. So when I'm doing WILD it would tell me that I'm on my way into a dream.

Good/no good?

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## littlezoe

Today in the morning i didn't really mean to WILD, but i kept thinking of what words might mean something to me, and use those as a mantra. My most important goal in life right now is to get on the right track, to find that happiness i'm looking for... to succeed...

So as the mantra i wanted something simple, short, but meaningful... i choosen "Sikerülni fog", which translates to "It'll succeed". I'm not sure yet if this is the right mantra... maybe i should be more specific... but i'm not sure  :smiley:

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## Sageous

> I've chosen "Jeg er på vej" which is Danish and in normal conversations would translate to "I'm on my way", but it could also mean something more like "I'm on the right path" or "I'm going in the right direction".  I chose it because I consider my dive into lucid dreaming to be a lifelong travel that I'm embarking on and I feel like I need to assure my self of this choice. But I also chose it because I fall asleep very quickly and have problems keeping aware. So when I'm doing WILD it would tell me that I'm on my way into a dream.
> 
> Good/no good?



Excellent choice, Strit!  Your mantra means something to you, is lyrical, _and_ practical.

Nice work!

----------


## Sageous

> Today in the morning i didn't really mean to WILD, but i kept thinking of what words might mean something to me, and use those as a mantra. My most important goal in life right now is to get on the right track, to find that happiness i'm looking for... to succeed...
> 
> So as the mantra i wanted something simple, short, but meaningful... i choosen "Sikerülni fog", which translates to "It'll succeed". I'm not sure yet if this is the right mantra... maybe i should be more specific... but i'm not sure



That might not be too terribly specific, but I really like the way it came to you. Later, after you've gleaned your "right track," something more specific might come along, and be sure to welcome it should it arrive.  But for now I think this should work for you.

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## Sydney

I just got around to reading the Mantras thread today, and it really changed my view about mantras! I was just repeating them and not really focusing on the meaning behind them, just saying the word over and over and not really thinking about what I was saying. So thanks, Sageous!  ::D: 

But now I'm freaking out because I only have a day to think of a mantra..
Well, not really, but I would like to get it done before you post your next lesson.  :tongue2: 

What about, "I will be dreaming soon" ? It kind of came to me as I was thinking about it. I would think it would give me enough "motivation" to keep going.
Or what about just "Soon."?

Or should I think up something else?  :tongue2:

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## Sageous

> What about, "I will be dreaming soon" ? It kind of came to me as I was thinking about it. I would think it would give me enough "motivation" to keep going.
> 
> Or what about just "Soon."?
> 
> Or should I think up something else?




This may sound odd, but I kind of like "Soon."  It has a subtle meaning to it, is easy to repeat and "soon" is one of those words that carries with it a very positive, even archetypical, message of hope that your unconscious might soak up in a very good way.

That said, it wouldn't hurt to keep thinking about a mantra, because another, even better one might come along -- and you don't want to let it slip past you!

----------


## Frobthebuilder

I'm actually considering changing my mantra to "Still here". I think that one has a little more meaning in the context of WILD. What do you think?

----------


## Sageous

> I'm actually considering changing my mantra to "Still here". I think that one has a little more meaning in the context of WILD. What do you think?



I think that might be a better choice for two reasons:

First, because it carries a bit less metaphysical (and possibly distracting) import than "light," and second, because _you_ seem to find more contextual meaning to it -- and that's the bit that really matters here.   Plus you have opportunity to say "Still" on you in-breaths, and "Here" on your out-breaths, which might help you stay focused.

This might be a good one for you!

----------


## enak101

Not related to last lesson really, I'm working on that over the next few days but I've been attempting WILD's over the last few nights and keep falling asleep after I wake up  :Sad: 

Any tips to wake myself up a bit after WBTB?

----------


## Sageous

> Not related to last lesson really, I'm working on that over the next few days but I've been attempting WILD's over the last few nights and keep falling asleep after I wake up 
> 
> Any tips to wake myself up a bit after WBTB?



Just one that I can think of: get up and walk around.  That sounds stupid simple, I know, but it could be all you need to do.  Your body is extremely interested in going back to sleep during those groggy initial arousals (and it usually does), so you need to take some (mild) physical action to stave off that grogginess. If you lie in bed "planning" to get up for too long a stretch, you'll likely just drift off again.

So get right up, stroll around a bit, and think about what you were dreaming and what you will be dreaming shortly.

I hope that helped; if I misunderstood your question please ask again!

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## enak101

Thanks, that helps. I'll do that.

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## Ctharlhie

I had this thought the other day that you could make use of this -Mammalian diving reflex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - to both wake you and relax you for WILD during WBTB. Obviously cold water on your face is going to wake you up, but it also slows your breathing and heart rate. Thoughts?

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## paigeyemps

For my mantra, I use the word "matá". It is a word in my local dialect which means "wake up". I've been using this ever since I started LDing with WBTB+MILD. I think it works so well for me because it is very short, and I personally tend to quickly lose my train of thought when I'm doing my mantra; anything more than 3 words and I forget it on the 3rd repitition. Also, "matá" reminds me to "wake up" without actually opening my eyes so I usually end up waking in the dream world. Lastly, saying mantras in my own dialect makes it more meaningful for me, and most of the time in my non-lucids I recite the mantra out of nowhere and I quickly get lucid because my dreams are usually in English, and the sudden and odd change in language makes it easy for me to "snap" into lucidity. If that makes any sense.  :smiley: 

Also, I don't use this mantra _every_ time, though I use it often; sometimes I change it up depending on how I feel that night or what feels meaningful to me at the moment. Would that be alright/helpful? Or would I have to really focus on something that I should use every time?

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## Sageous

> I had this thought the other day that you could make use of this -Mammalian diving reflex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - to both wake you and relax you for WILD during WBTB. Obviously cold water on your face is going to wake you up, but it also slows your breathing and heart rate. Thoughts?



Interesting solution!  But enak must be careful not to wake up _too much_. A splash of water might take him a bit too far from the sleep cycles he's looking only to forestall (preferably without breaking the close-together REM cycles, or losing track of earlier dreams).  It might be calming, but a splash of cold water could also trigger the reticular system as effectively as a harsh alarm clock.  It might be better (it certainly is for me) to stay a bit groggy during WBTB.  

... of course I could be wrong!  Let us know how it worked if you tried it, enak!

----------


## Sageous

> For my mantra, I use the word "matá". It is a word in my local dialect which means "wake up". I've been using this ever since I started LDing with WBTB+MILD. I think it works so well for me because it is very short, and I personally tend to quickly lose my train of thought when I'm doing my mantra; anything more than 3 words and I forget it on the 3rd repitition. Also, "matá" reminds me to "wake up" without actually opening my eyes so I usually end up waking in the dream world. Lastly, saying mantras in my own dialect makes it more meaningful for me, and most of the time in my non-lucids I recite the mantra out of nowhere and I quickly get lucid because my dreams are usually in English, and the sudden and odd change in language makes it easy for me to "snap" into lucidity. If that makes any sense. 
> 
> Also, I don't use this mantra _every_ time, though I use it often; sometimes I change it up depending on how I feel that night or what feels meaningful to me at the moment. Would that be alright/helpful? Or would I have to really focus on something that I should use every time?



Your "mata" sounds very much like my "Here & Now" mantra, which has been my standard, or rather fall-back, for decades, and for many of the same reasons.  I too do not use "Here & Now" every time, and to me that is a good idea, because it allows me to use _specific_ mantras based on current work.  But I have found myself going back to "Here & Now" mid-WILD, so it doesn't hurt to have it on a back burner. 

 So in other words, it seems to me that you've made good choices, both in "mata," and in using different mantras to suit your wishes.  No need to shift your setup at all, I think!

----------


## Sageous

*WILD Session 6: Doing the Dive is posted.*

Enjoy!

----------


## RareCola

Awesome  ::D:  I never realised until now but after all this practice it looks like I have all the basic skills necessary, now it's just a matter of going through with the actual thing. Going to make my first attempt tomorrow!

----------


## Taffy

Phew, so this is it, huh? The actual WILDing begins.  :smiley:  I've been really lazy lately with lucidity related things, so I'm kind of out of synch. Haven't been very active around here, either. But nonetheless, I'm going to set aside a night this week and do a WILD. Summer break starts soon, which can either be a plus or it could be negative; I could be very focused on WILD or I could slack off. Hopefully it will be more of the firmer than the latter.

----------


## CJC

I suppose that after your first successful WILD, the motivation part can be ignored because of the newly renewed confidence

----------


## dreamsauce

Sageous,
this is a very helpful tutorial you have here. I know you said that the lying still and waiting part is not that important but it seems to be my main problem. Ive been attempting WILD for about a month now with absolutely no success. Ive tried several methods: variations of alarms, various waking times, breathing methods, meditation methods, mantras, several binaural beat/brain entertainment methods, the list goes on... I haven't had any success. I can't even get to the point where i see HI. I can't even seem to find a method that suits me best. Any advice?
Dreamsauce

----------


## Taffy

^ You see? That's just it. You're too worried about getting into HI.

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## Sageous

> I suppose that after your first successful WILD, the motivation part can be ignored because of the newly renewed confidence



Not ignored; _refined_!

----------


## Sageous

> Sageous,
> this is a very helpful tutorial you have here. I know you said that the lying still and waiting part is not that important but it seems to be my main problem. Ive been attempting WILD for about a month now with absolutely no success. Ive tried several methods: variations of alarms, various waking times, breathing methods, meditation methods, mantras, several binaural beat/brain entertainment methods, the list goes on... I haven't had any success. I can't even get to the point where i see HI. I can't even seem to find a method that suits me best. Any advice?
> Dreamsauce



Taffy may have already covered this, but I'll throw in my two cents: 

Remember that when you WILD (or LD using _any_ technique, or none), things like HI are simply mileposts, with your only real target being the dream. If the "noise" becomes important, you stand an excellent chance of being distracted. If I misunderstood, and you you were just listing HI as the milepost it is, then how about this:

 Remember that WILD is just a technique -- you might consider checking out DILD or MILD, in case those might work better for you. What really matters are the fundamentals -- self-awareness and memory, so technique is a matter of choice or convenience, and not a requirement. 

Aside from that, and closer to your request, I recommend patience, and continued exploration.  Regarding the "front end," you might want reconsider the basics, like the "61 Points" relaxation method LaBerge outlines in EWOLD, or perhaps forgetting all the tutorials and simply lie still on your back or _left_ side and think dreamy thoughts.  Sometimes doing less is more.

  If that wasn't enough, let me know and I'll try again...

----------


## RareCola

> or perhaps forgetting all the tutorials and simply lie still on your back or _left_ side and think dreamy thoughts.  Sometimes doing less is more.



I'm curious as to why you specified the left side? I thought it was just coincidence or that I just particularly liked laying on my left side, but I've been noticing a lot lately that most of my lucidity and best dream recall has occurred while laying on my left side. I've even been discovering I can fall asleep a lot faster on my left side... is there something scientific to actually explain this?

----------


## dreamsauce

> ^ You see? That's just it. You're too worried about getting into HI.



Im not saying that having HI is my main goal, i just thought it was a natural process. Im seeing no HI which may be implying that i am doing something wrong? I dont know. Do some people experience little to no HI?

----------


## Sageous

> I'm curious as to why you specified the left side? I thought it was just coincidence or that I just particularly liked laying on my left side, but I've been noticing a lot lately that most of my lucidity and best dream recall has occurred while laying on my left side. I've even been discovering I can fall asleep a lot faster on my left side... is there something scientific to actually explain this?



I wondered if anyone might notice that...

Nothing scientific that I know of has been found, though LaBerge _was_ doing a study on sleep posture a few years back. 

I guess I let some dream yoga slip into my post: The dream yogis have determined that men dream best on their right sides, while women dream best on their left sides...something about positive wisdom prana (prana = vital "wind" energy) releasing more properly through appropriate nostrils, I think.  Also, simply being careful about your sleep posture helps maintain your awareness during sleep. If you're curious, I believe there is information about it in _The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep_,  or maybe Sivason could explain it more clearly (and/or_ correctly_), as he is better versed in the specifics of dream yoga than I am.

So, according to the dream yogis, you would do better to sleep on your right side...maybe you should try it?  I've always found that true for me, though I really never took much stock in the whole prana thing; I'm just more comfortable.  Oh, and my wife noticed, after I mentioned this very post to her, that she tends to have her best dreams on her left side.  Could be _something_ to it, I suppose!

----------


## Sageous

> Im not saying that having HI is my main goal, i just thought it was a natural process. Im seeing no HI which may be implying that i am doing something wrong? I dont know. Do some people experience little to no HI?



Yes, it is possible to get to sleep without experiencing, or perhaps noticing, HI.  It happens to me all the time.  So the only thing you might be doing wrong might be looking for an event that is simply not terribly _eventful_ for you.  

What could also be happening is that you are simply falling asleep before you get a chance to see HI, so, when you finally find the "“lie down, hold still, and wait” method that works for you, you might also find yourself staying "awake" long enough to notice HI, SP, and the rest of the "noise."  When you do, don't forget to pay them little heed!

And of course if you should choose to switch techniques and go with DILD or MILD, things like HI won't matter anymore...

----------


## dreamsauce

> Yes, it is possible to get to sleep without experiencing, or perhaps noticing, HI.  It happens to me all the time.  So the only thing you might be doing wrong might be looking for an event that is simply not terribly _eventful_ for you.  
> 
> What could also be happening is that you are simply falling asleep before you get a chance to see HI, so, when you finally find the "“lie down, hold still, and wait” method that works for you, you might also find yourself staying "awake" long enough to notice HI, SP, and the rest of the "noise."  When you do, don't forget to pay them little heed!
> 
> And of course if you should choose to switch techniques and go with DILD or MILD, things like HI won't matter anymore...



Thank you. I shall find the method that finally works.... eventually

----------


## RareCola

> I wondered if anyone might notice that...
> 
> Nothing scientific that I know of has been found, though LaBerge _was_ doing a study on sleep posture a few years back. 
> 
> I guess I let some dream yoga slip into my post: The dream yogis have determined that men dream best on their right sides, while women dream best on their left sides...something about positive wisdom prana (prana = vital "wind" energy) releasing more properly through appropriate nostrils, I think.  Also, simply being careful about your sleep posture helps maintain your awareness during sleep. If you're curious, I believe there is information about it in _The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep_,  or maybe Sivason could explain it more clearly (and/or_ correctly_), as he is better versed in the specifics of dream yoga than I am.
> 
> So, according to the dream yogis, you would do better to sleep on your right side...maybe you should try it?  I've always found that true for me, though I really never took much stock in the whole prana thing; I'm just more comfortable.  Oh, and my wife noticed, after I mentioned this very post to her, that she tends to have her best dreams on her left side.  Could be _something_ to it, I suppose!



Heh, that's strange then. I can sleep alright on my right side, but I tend to find I sleep a lot more comfortably on my left. Though with further thought I guess it could be because when I'm laying on my right side I'm actually facing the window and with my awkward sleep schedule the small amount of light is enough to be a distraction, whereas I'm facing a dark wall on my left side.

----------


## Sageous

> Heh, that's strange then. I can sleep alright on my right side, but I tend to find I sleep a lot more comfortably on my left. Though with further thought I guess it could be because when I'm laying on my right side I'm actually facing the window and with my awkward sleep schedule the small amount of light is enough to be a distraction, whereas I'm facing a dark wall on my left side.



Well, you could try an experiment and move your pillow to the other end of the bed...

----------


## RareCola

> Well, you could try an experiment and move your pillow to the other end of the bed...



Haha I could try that, not sure if it would be a fair test because it would feel so foreign anyway though.

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## Ctharlhie

Do it for a week then  :wink2:

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## hermine_hesse

Sageous, I have a question regarding the "hold still and wait" part.  I may be the only one here who hasn't read all the WILD tutorials on this site.  (The focus on SP always drove me crazy, so I have just avoided them.)  

I have a relaxation technique I developed for myself over the years and wondering if it could be helpful in WILDing.  I visualize myself lying on a beach.  I am at the edge of the shore and the waves begin to gently wash over me.  The waves, which are in synch with my breath, start at my toes and slowly go up my body.  As the tide recedes, all stress and tension leave and I am completely relaxed.  Usually, I also add in a mantra to the timing of the waves.  I have been doing this for years, so I can also produce the relaxation effect now, without the visualization part.

If I used the "blank" version and added in my new mantra, would this work for "hold still and wait"?

----------


## Ctharlhie

> Sageous, I have a question regarding the "hold still and wait" part.  I may be the only one here who hasn't read all the WILD tutorials on this site.  (The focus on SP always drove me crazy, so I have just avoided them.)  
> 
> I have a relaxation technique I developed for myself over the years and wondering if it could be helpful in WILDing.  I visualize myself lying on a beach.  I am at the edge of the shore and the waves begin to gently wash over me.  The waves, which are in synch with my breath, start at my toes and slowly go up my body.  As the tide recedes, all stress and tension leave and I am completely relaxed.  Usually, I also add in a mantra to the timing of the waves.  I have been doing this for years, so I can also produce the relaxation effect now, without the visualization part.
> 
> If I used the "blank" version and added in my new mantra, would this work for "hold still and wait"?



I'm going to chip in and say I think this is really cool. The beach setting taps into strong associations of relaxation through the 'holiday' schema, the strong visualisation element forms a dream ready made to enter and the tide visualisation can be timed with breath and mantra. I may try this as I've been trying to find a form of V-WILD that does not require active maintenance of the scene.  :smiley: 

Reminds me of this Surfer Technique for Lucid Dreaming | dream studies portal, I think yours is better, the surfing visualisation is more difficult to maintain and not as conducive to relaxation and returning to sleep.

----------


## TheGrimRose

> I have a relaxation technique I developed for myself over the years and wondering if it could be helpful in WILDing.  I visualize myself lying on a beach.  I am at the edge of the shore and the waves begin to gently wash over me.  The waves, which are in synch with my breath, start at my toes and slowly go up my body.  As the tide recedes, all stress and tension leave and I am completely relaxed.  Usually, I also add in a mantra to the timing of the waves.  I have been doing this for years, so I can also produce the relaxation effect now, without the visualization part.?



Wow this is weird...I guess i am not the only person who uses the beach and waves to relax. Ever since I started to try and lucid dream, I have been using the waves to relax and pace my breathing. I like it  ::happy::

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## RareCola

Seems waves are pretty common for visualisation in here! I use beach settings too, or even floating on a raft feeling the motion of the waves.

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## Sageous

> Sageous, I have a question regarding the "hold still and wait" part.  I may be the only one here who hasn't read all the WILD tutorials on this site.  (The focus on SP always drove me crazy, so I have just avoided them.)  
> 
> I have a relaxation technique I developed for myself over the years and wondering if it could be helpful in WILDing.  I visualize myself lying on a beach.  I am at the edge of the shore and the waves begin to gently wash over me.  The waves, which are in synch with my breath, start at my toes and slowly go up my body.  As the tide recedes, all stress and tension leave and I am completely relaxed.  Usually, I also add in a mantra to the timing of the waves.  I have been doing this for years, so I can also produce the relaxation effect now, without the visualization part.
> 
> If I used the "blank" version and added in my new mantra, would this work for "hold still and wait"?



Wow, Hermine, I became relaxed and very peaceful just reading your post!

I think that relaxation method should work very well, especially if you can do it without the visualization part (which would be a distraction, I think).  Just be careful you don't get_ too_ relaxed, and slip into regular sleep .. though I think repetition of the mantra (and with it retaining your self-awareness and intention) will likely keep that from happening.

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## Sageous

> Seems waves are pretty common for visualisation in here! I use beach settings too, or even floating on a raft feeling the motion of the waves.



As I just mentioned on the other thread:  Water, particularly the ocean, is an archetype for the unconscious, so it doesn't surprise me that it turns up in many a dreamer's relaxation/visualization pattern.

And, just to make it all totally deep, in visualizing a beach -- especially in the manner Hermine does -- you are visualizing a place where the land, water, and air all meet.  Now, consider the land your body, the water your mind, and the air your spirit, your stepping into some serious archetyping indeed!

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## Ctharlhie

Sageous, what is _your_ procedure for WILD? I feel like I've read so many guides with differing advice that I almost want a definitive 'Sageous WILD' for the class.

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## Sageous

> Sageous, what is _your_ procedure for WILD? I feel like I've read so many guides with differing advice that I almost want a definitive 'Sageous WILD' for the class.




My procedure?  Well, first an apology:  I avoided listing my version of LDHSW because in all honesty I don't care much about techniques, and didn't want to make what I do more important than the other 15 bazillion WILD techniques.  To offer my own technique might make it look like the LDHSW matters to me  -- which it does not. 

Okay, with the intellectual excuse/disclaimer behind me, let me tell you what I do.  I think I may already have done so, indirectly, in the weave of the sessions, so all apologies for any repetition.  Anyway, here is my general procedure for classic WILD:

1.  First, I usually stay up until about 2am (or 3 am when I find myself sitting here typing posts), then go to bed, with as many dreamy thoughts as possible.  

2. I wake my wife up for work at about 6am, then lie quietly until 8 am, when it's time to see her off.  Then I return to bed.

3. I then set my white noise machine (everyone should have one!), and lie down and wait.

4. I have a bit of a wandering mind (I likely would've had ADD as a kid, had they invented it yet), so I usually let it wander for a half hour or so before starting, just to give those pesky random thoughts a chance to swim by before I start, rather than during.

5. I then do a version of the "61 points" relaxation method, finishing with a single deep breath and long exhale that marks the first uttering of my mantra.

6. I recite my mantra silently, timing it with my breath.  Since my mantra varies from WILD to WILD, I will say the one-syllable mantras on the in-breath, and nothing on the out breath, or else divide multi-syllabic mantras evenly between in and out breaths.  It is important to do this, I think, because it syncs my mantra with the motion of my body (physical and spiritual, for the mystics out there) and both elevates the significance of the mantra and helps me relax.

7.  Relaxed, with mantra and breathing steady, and most stray thoughts drifting quietly on the sideline, I begin my wait.  During the wait I try to think of nothing at all, save that I am here and everything going on around me is a product of my own mind and body.  BTW, this is one reason my mantra is important:  because I usually use a mantra that reflects my goals for dreaming that day, it can carry my expectations and intentions for me without my needing to remember them during this quiet time.

8. The "noise" comes and goes.  I ignore it completely.  I always did, and have no idea why.

9. During the brief NREM "break" I tend to get between the noise and dreams, I pause -- hell, I _bask_ -- in nothingness for a moment, then start to visualize my dream by remembering all the things today's mantra refers to, and summoning simple versions of appropriate schema (ie, if I'm going to a favorite dream mansion I like to visit, I start with a white stone or blob, and let my mantra and expectations form the blob into the castle eventually -- so now is the time for the blob).

10.  REM, and the dream begins, usually in very rudimentary form.  The rest is up to how much self-awareness, memory, and expectation came along with me.

So that's it.  Though it looks like a lot, basically I do almost nothing at all during the LDHSW section -- so not much technique to share, I guess.

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## Ctharlhie

There's no need to apologise, I just expected a more didactic approach, I thought you'd lay out your favoured LDHSW. I possibly get too hung up with technique in all my previous attempts anyway. 
Thanks for sharing, but yep, I was worried you were going to say something along those lines :/ 
For my part I find that I can't simply do nothing and remain 'present' as I drift into sleep. Your set up is ideal for WILD, you have the luxury of staying up for 2 hours with free time to attempt WILD and with enough of a sleep deficit to give a quick return to REM. I think that's why your WILD is very 'pure', all you do is literally fall asleep retaining awareness, the very definition of a wake initiated  lucid dream. Maybe it has something to do with you indirectly practising dream yoga for so long?

I'll run this by you. The 'noise' I get tends to be progressively more illogical and dream-like thought patterns, at first these are like 'impressions', almost memories of thoughts. These thoughts progress to intangible mind's eye imagery, and then actual hypnagogic imagery I see with my actual eyes. On occasion I've been lucid enough to manipulate this imagery and almost enter a dream. One thing I found in some of my experiments with the hypnagogic state is that if I maintain a visualisation of a simple geometric shape such as a sphere or prism, hypnagogia will come and go, sometimes interacting with my visualisation, but as the images progress and dissipate the shape I am imagining remains constant. Is this a kind of LDHSW technique you would recommend?

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## Sageous

> There's no need to apologise, I just expected a more didactic approach, I thought you'd lay out your favoured LDHSW. I possibly get too hung up with technique in all my previous attempts anyway. 
> Thanks for sharing, but yep, I was worried you were going to say something along those lines :/



Sorry! I can only say it like it is -- I'm not a fan of techniques, especially the ones that don't matter in the big picture of dreaming, like LDHSW, where all you're really supposed to do is Lie Down, Hold Still, and Wait... hard to have a fovored technique when I can't see, much less value, a technique in the first place.





> For my part I find that I can't simply do nothing and remain 'present' as I drift into sleep. Your set up is ideal for WILD, you have the luxury of staying up for 2 hours with free time to attempt WILD and with enough of a sleep deficit to give a quick return to REM. I think that's why your WILD is very 'pure', all you do is literally fall asleep retaining awareness, the very definition of a wake initiated  lucid dream.



Timing in WILD is, indeed, everything. Is there no way you can finagle one night/morning every week or two from which you can extract your "perfect timing?" If not, you might need to switch to my favorite form of WILD, DEILD, which is much more flexible, time-wise;  more on that this Tuesday.





> Maybe it has something to do with you indirectly practising dream yoga for so long?



 I've never thought about it, but sure, I suppose it is. I'm not sure that matters, though, except that getting to the "pure" WILD might take a while, and require some serious practice... but that doesn't mean you can't have not-so-pure or genuinely sloppy WILD and still manage to get to the LD without losing awareness!





> I'll run this by you. The 'noise' I get tends to be progressively more illogical and dream-like thought patterns, at first these are like 'impressions', almost memories of thoughts. These thoughts progress to intangible mind's eye imagery, and then actual hypnagogic imagery I see with my actual eyes. On occasion I've been lucid enough to manipulate this imagery and almost enter a dream. One thing I found in some of my experiments with the hypnagogic state is that if I maintain a visualisation of a simple geometric shape such as a sphere or prism, hypnagogia will come and go, sometimes interacting with my visualisation, but as the images progress and dissipate the shape I am imagining remains constant. Is this a kind of LDHSW technique you would recommend?



 That is an excellent technique, almost a mandala method I would say.  It's awfully close to a distracting form of meditation, but I think, in your case, you'll be able to avoid the distraction and continue to the dream.  You could even "keep" the geometric shape with you in the dream, as a sort of memory cue to help you maintain high awareness and perhaps with control.  Pretty cool!

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## Sydney

Just wondering, but Sageous, how long did it take you to figure out your perfect WBTB time?
I'm still having trouble figuring out mine, and I don't know where to start.
I know it's probably somewhere in between the 5 - 6 hour range. The first WILD I ever had I slept for about 6 hours with an alarm, but for some reason that's backfiring on me now. :/

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## Sageous

> Just wondering, but Sageous, how long did it take you to figure out your perfect WBTB time?
> I'm still having trouble figuring out mine, and I don't know where to start.
> I know it's probably somewhere in between the 5 - 6 hour range. The first WILD I ever had I slept for about 6 hours with an alarm, but for some reason that's backfiring on me now. :/



My perfect WBTB time has evolved over the years as I aged, lived in different places, and my daily routines shifted, so it's hard to say.  I guess it took a week or two to find my latest perfect time.

You might start to find yours by figuring you just got lucky with that 6 hr sleep time, but use it as a benchmark:  consider that your max time, and work backward from there.  For instance, if you can wake up after 5 1/2 hrs without an alarm, and make that your time.  And, if you wake up after 5 hrs, or 5 3/4 hrs, just go with it. Then try again, getting as close to 5 hrs as you can get.  

I guess what I'm basically saying is don't be too concerned about timing; make an effort to get close to a good time (if you think 5-6 hrs, is right, then it probably is), stay confident, self-aware, and casual, and these details will work themselves out.

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## RareCola

Was the WILD attempts thread supposed to be closed, or did you close it by accident?

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## Sageous

I guess I closed it by accident... Seems odd, because it's a pretty difficult thing to not do on purpose!  But I wouldn't put it past my fumble fingers!

Either that, or someone doesn't like what we're posting... I hope that isn't the case.

But whatever that case might be, the thread is open again (as far as I know)... Hopefully it'll stay that way.

Thanks for the heads-up, RareCola!

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## Sydney

Okay, thanks  ::D:  It seems now though that I can't really wake up naturally around those times anymore. The times I usually wake up naturally are about 4 hours after sleeping (rarely though) or after about 7 hours.
I guess that means that I'll have to use a mantra, or drink some water. Not sure about the latter though, because it's kind of a random chance, don't you think?

I guess what I'm saying is.. do you think there is a way I could just naturally on my own wake up at those times, almost guaranteed, without any preparation like mantras? I guess that would be the easy way out though.. lol.

Or do you think if I keep saying mantras for around that time every night, I'll eventually just wake up naturally at those times?

Sorry if that whole thing was confusing. x)

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## Sageous

^^ Yep, that was confusing!  The mantra is supposed to come into play after you lay back down following WBTB; it isn't needed at bedtime the night before, and, as far as I know, will not help much with waking you up.  it is your guide through the actual WILD, nothing more.

That said, I think there are ways you can use autosuggestion to help get your body interested in waking up at a certain time...sadly I don't know them myself, but I'd bet a search will find you something about it on this site.

Bottom line: Try not to worry too much about this, Sydney;  you'll likely wake up sometime near that five-hour minimum anyway, and you could set an alarm as a safeguard, just in case you don't.  It's good to have a perfect WBTB time, bit you can still WILD without it...oh, and mantras aren't for bedtime in this exercise!

I hope I understood what you meant; let ke know if I got it wrong.

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## Sydney

Thanks!  ::D:  I'm sorry, I should have actually said what I meant.  :tongue2:  By mantras I meant autosuggestion - I get those two confused!

Okay, I'll try not to worry too much about it. Here's to a successful WILD tonight.  :tongue2:

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## CJC

Is it possible to forget a successful WILD?

----------


## Sageous

> Is it possible to forget a successful WILD?



It's possible, but very unlikely.  Since it's both an intense waking-life consciousness event, and also likely a significant event for you, the chances of your brain opting not to store the memory in at least your short-term memory (meaning you'll remember it clearly upon waking) are slim to non-existent.

In other words, you'll remember it.

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## Sageous

*Bad News, Folks:  The Next  Session is Running Late!*

Session #7: the Other WILD, was supposed to go up today, but real life interfered and I was not able to put it all together in time.  I'll try to have it done by Thursday or Friday.

In the meantime, I'll still be checking in, so be sure to continue posting your WILD attempts.

All apologies!

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## Sageous

*WILD Session 7: The Other WILD* is finally posted.

Enjoy!

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## RareCola

Can't believe it's been 7 weeks already! I feel like I've learnt so much and even felt like I've reached a point where lucid dreaming has just "clicked" -- it's hard to explain, just a sense that I'm much more in control of my lucidity now. I think a lot of this has to be down to your excellent guidance!  :smiley: 

Thank you a million times over for this class, and I look forward to many WILDs and DEILDs in the future using your advice.

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## paigeyemps

Awesome! Just finished reading it  :smiley: 

I was wondering though, I have had a few DEILDs since I started -- most of which happen early in the morning where I don't wanna wake up just yet -- and I was curious about the laying still part. I've noticed that when I start to wake up, I always roll over to the other side of my body, but yet I get lucid. I have experimented before with laying still when that waking moment comes, but for some reason, I become lucid more frequently when I roll over. Any thoughts on this?

And thank you so much for taking the time to teach all of us! We all learned so much from this, indeed!  ::D:

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## Sageous

> I was wondering though, I have had a few DEILDs since I started -- most of which happen early in the morning where I don't wanna wake up just yet -- and I was curious about the laying still part. I've noticed that when I start to wake up, I always roll over to the other side of my body, but yet I get lucid. I have experimented before with laying still when that waking moment comes, but for some reason, I become lucid more frequently when I roll over. Any thoughts on this?



I think, then, that you should roll over.  There are exceptions to every rule, Paigeyemps, especially the "rules" for LD'ing, which have as yet only begun to be written...

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## Sydney

So, is there any specific technique for remembering to stay still upon waking? Or is it all about intent? Would mantras work?

And thank you so much for this class, I understand so much more about WILD's now!

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## Sageous

> So, is there any specific technique for remembering to stay still upon waking? Or is it all about intent? Would mantras work?



The key, I think, is in simply remembering.  If you can _remember,_ when you begin to wake up, that you were dreaming and are still mostly asleep, then the rest is relatively easy.  So I guess it is indeed all about intent, or at least mental prep/strong self-awareness -- if you are _ready_ to notice that you are waking up, then you will notice! A mantra should not be necessary this time.

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## enak101

I just wanted to thank you for your brilliant course you just finished. It was amazing. I stopped LD'ing for a while but I did attempt a WILD last night, only problem was that I went to bed at 12 AM and then woke up at 6 AM, there was far too much noise for me to try WILD. I usually go to bed a bit earlier but even still I can wake up at 5 or 5:30 which should be better.

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## CJC

Two questions regarding the DEILD.

1. Can you train yourself to wake up after each dream?

2a. What is the most movement you could accidentally do and still succeed?

2b. Does eye movement count. Obviously it's rapid eye movement stage, but you're awake so
I just wanted to put that out there. How about eyelids?

And yes, thank you very much for the detailed course. So sad it's over. I liked learning the new things and having new Things to practice. :Sad:

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## Sageous

> Two questions regarding the DEILD.
> 
> 1. Can you train yourself to wake up after each dream?



You can't so much _train_ yourself to wake up (because you're already doing that naturally), but you can develop in your psyche an _expectation,_ based on previously set intentions, to be aware of when you are exiting a dream.  It's really not a situation where some technique will be able to come into play as much as it is a moment to test and/or be rewarded for the mental prep that you've already done. In other words, if you've built up your self-awareness and have a real intention to be _ready_ for the moment when you are approaching waking life from a dream, then "being present" at the opening moments of DEILD likely will not be a problem.  





> 2a. What is the most movement you could accidentally do and still succeed?



That's hard to say.  Ideally no movement is best, but if you are strongly self-aware and really "ready" to dive back in, a little movement might be okay.  You might even God help us, be able to roll over before re-entering your dream. But keep in mind that _any_ movement alters the game board a bit, so if you do choose to open your eyes, roll over, or even scratch your nose, then you'd best have already erected a tall tower of self-awareness, or else you'll be waking up for real shortly! 





> 2b. Does eye movement count. Obviously it's rapid eye movement stage, but you're awake so I just wanted to put that out there. How about eyelids?



Try to keep those eyes closed!  A great number of the gears used in initiating and ending sleep cycles are turned by the physical state of your eyes -- and the position of their lids.  In other words, if you should open your eyes during those few seconds where you realize waking life is approaching, you'll wake up for sure.  As far as just moving your eyes goes, that likely will have little effect on anything -- as long as your physical eyes don't actually see anything.

.

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## Sydney

Sometimes I just don't wake up during the night. It's random when it happens. I will WBTB, but I want to DEILD too.
Is there any way to wake up naturally, possibly before a WBTB? I know water works, but for me it wakes me up in the later stages of sleep, usually 5 or so hours after I first go to bed.

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## CJC

Holy shit holy shit I think I found my technique holy shit sageous u are the man. 

So, I awoke about four times last night. On one of them I fully remembered to stay still and I visualized the dream I was to enter, and what do ya know? First, I enter sleep paralysis for the first time On purpose, which felt cool, and I had two seconds of my first DIELD. The only thing that woke my up was my brother decided to fall down the stairs and break his upper arm. Wtfwtfwtf

The transition to SP was like nothing I have ever felt before. It felt like my whole body was spinning right into my head and the vibrations were sweet. Crazy stuff. I think if I can mastering this, I will be able to have a lucid or more every night. God damn I'm happy.

If I get good at DEILD, will it help me with WILD?

Thank you so fucking much you are my favorite person on the forum and sorry for the extreme flattery.

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## CJC

> Sometimes I just don't wake up during the night. It's random when it happens. I will WBTB, but I want to DEILD too.
> Is there any way to wake up naturally, possibly before a WBTB? I know water works, but for me it wakes me up in the later stages of sleep, usually 5 or so hours after I first go to bed.




What work for me is two things. I think you'll find one more appealing...

1. Sleep uncomfortably or in an unfamiliar place.

2. Genuinely expect that you WILL wake up because you always do.

I hope one of the works for you. :smiley:

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## Sageous

Conrgats ThAtaInTmE; nice work!





> If I get good at DEILD, will it help me with WILD?



If you get good at DEILD, you _are_ good at WILD, because DEILD is just another form of WILD.  That said, you might still have some trouble with classic, LDHSW WILD, because that involves more effort in getting to sleep without losing awareness ... but if you gain the self-awareness and attitude necessary to consistently DEILD, I'm guessing that your WILD attempts will likely go more smoothly.

Good luck!

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## Sageous

> Sometimes I just don't wake up during the night. It's random when it happens. I will WBTB, but I want to DEILD too.
> Is there any way to wake up naturally, possibly before a WBTB? I know water works, but for me it wakes me up in the later stages of sleep, usually 5 or so hours after I first go to bed.



Though ThAtaInTmE offeers a couple of decent suggestions, let me offer another one: don't try to wake up during the night (or, rather, notice that you woke up, because everybody wakes up several times during the night, but doesn't realize it). That's right; just sleep those five hours, and do your dream work, WBTB, WILD, _and_ DEILD, _after_ that.

Why?  A few reasons:

First, because the earlier hours of sleep aren't the best for doing WILD's anyway, given the spacing of REM cycles and whatnot.  

Next, if you get that five hours of "uninterrupted" sleep, then you'll be more rested in general and maybe be in a better mood to attempt your WILD, and that's important.  

Finally, and most importantly, I've found that DEILD works best _after_ a WILD attempt -- even if the WILD attempt failed.  This is because you've already put all the pieces in place, (self-awareness, intent, expectation, etc), and all that stuff will still be with you when you start to emerge from the dream that followed your WILD attempt, be it lucid or not.  Mix that readiness with the closeness of REM cycles at that point, and you'll have a much better chance of doing a DEILD very late in your night's/morning's sleep  than you would if you woke up earlier in the night.

I hope that made sense, and, now that I think about it, that I understood your question; let me know if I need to clarify...

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## Sydney

> I hope that made sense, and, now that I think about it, that I understood your question; let me know if I need to clarify...




No, that's perfect. Thank you!  ::D:

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## Sageous

*PDF of WILD According to Sageous is available.*

I don't know if any of you might be interested, but Xanous has made a PDF of the entire course, and is willing to share if asked.  So, if you want the course in PDF, just PM him, and he'll tell you how to get it.

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## paigeyemps

> *PDF of WILD According to Sageous is available.*
> 
> I don't know if any of you might be interested, but Xanous has made a PDF of the entire course, and is willing to share if asked.  So, if you want the course in PDF, just PM him, and he'll tell you how to get it.



AWESOME! Totally getting it.  :smiley:

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## Xanous

So, I am still going through a lot of the Q&A stuff. I am trying to get clarification on this and it helped to see others peoples questions but I have been wanting to ask in my own way. I am thinking a lot about RRCs and self-awareness. I dont seem to have trouble remembering I just don't know if I am doing it right. Or if I really get it. Or if I am over thinking.

What I usually do is, first of all just remember self and notice my surroundings. I tend to realize at that moment that my mind was a million miles away. When I come to myself it feels almost exactly like becoming lucid and trying to hold on to it. Then from there I think about how my presence and every little action and breath alters events and my environment. I do always think local. Then I ask myself where was I, what am I going to do next, and why. I try to keep it simple and not use a lot of internal dialog. Mostly pictures in my mind. It feels as if the intention is to practice becoming lucid.

I don't know if I explained myself well enough but do I have it right?

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## Sageous

^^ You got it right, Xanous, no doubt!

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## fOrceez

Planning to read this entire sub-forum again when I get home. Thanks again for all your hard work, Sageous!

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## RareCola

> Planning to read this entire sub-forum again when I get home. Thanks again for all your hard work, Sageous!



I should probably do this, need to remind myself of all the amazing information. I want to have a successful WILD already!

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## Xanous

On self-awareness. I am getting to the point that when I go the RRC I get straight into it like its a state of mind, or a thought, or an emotion. It is the same feeling as when I suddenly become lucid and my mind opens up to the dream. I feel like I can sometimes turn it on like a switch.  So, I try to keep that switch on as long as possible. I challenge myself to go about my daily activities with my self-awareness tucked in my mind but allow my normal thoughts to proceed like usual. I am not sure I am explaining myself correctly. But anyway, is this a good idea? Or should it just be a few seconds and then let it go for awhile? I would think that being able to hold it would be helpful in a WILD as your mind wonders into HI and then a dream. Or do I have this wrong? In any event, I must be doing _something_ right because my lucidity rate has never been this frequent in the past.

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## Sageous

> On self-awareness. I am getting to the point that when I go the RRC I get straight into it like its a state of mind, or a thought, or an emotion. It is the same feeling as when I suddenly become lucid and my mind opens up to the dream. I feel like I can sometimes turn it on like a switch.  So, I try to keep that switch on as long as possible. I challenge myself to go about my daily activities with my self-awareness tucked in my mind but allow my normal thoughts to proceed like usual. I am not sure I am explaining myself correctly. But anyway, is this a good idea? Or should it just be a few seconds and then let it go for awhile? I would think that being able to hold it would be helpful in a WILD as your mind wonders into HI and then a dream. Or do I have this wrong? In any event, I must be doing _something_ right because my lucidity rate has never been this frequent in the past.



I _think_ this is a good idea, if I understood you right.  Indeed, it's pretty special, if you ask me! I also think, or might even know, that the ultimate goal of a practice like RRC (and self-awareness, and dream yoga, for that matter) is to develop self-awareness until it becomes second nature, and is switched "on" to some degree all the time.

So yeah, if you can maintain a level of true self-awareness -- even one of a partial variety -- there's no harm in leaving it switched on all the time.  The main reason I kept the RRC brief was because this is a very difficult condition to nurture, and doing so wasn't necessary for successful WILD.

But it definitely helps!  I can certainly understand why your LD rate has improved, because in the end they are nothing more than self-awareness!

Let me know if I misunderstood.  Otherwise: kudos to you indeed!

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## Xanous

> I _think_ this is a good idea, if I understood you right.  Indeed, it's pretty special, if you ask me! I also think, or might even know, that the ultimate goal of a practice like RRC (and self-awareness, and dream yoga, for that matter) is to develop self-awareness until it becomes second nature, and is switched "on" to some degree all the time.
> 
> So yeah, if you can maintain a level of true self-awareness -- even one of a partial variety -- there's no harm in leaving it switched on all the time.  The main reason I kept the RRC brief was because this is a very difficult condition to nurture, and doing so wasn't necessary for successful WILD.
> 
> But it definitely helps!  I can certainly understand why your LD rate has improved, because in the end they are nothing more than self-awareness!
> 
> Let me know if I misunderstood.  Otherwise: kudos to you indeed!



Yes that answers my question very well. Thanks. Ill keep doing what I'm doing. This weekend I will have my first true WILD!

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## RareCola

So I've been reading Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming lately and came to the portion about WILDs and wanted to get your opinion on the methods in the book. I've found ETWoLD to be pretty solid for technique advice and such thus far, but I never saw you mention any of this style in your methods.

I wrote out one of the techniques in the spoiler:


*Spoiler* for _Technique_: 




*WHITE DOT TECHNIQUE*
*1. Before bed*
*A.*	Firmly resolve to recognize when you are dreaming.
*B.*	Visualize in your throat (Point 2 in the 61-point relaxation exercise) the syllable ah, red in color and vividly radiant.
*C.*	Mentally concentrate on the radiance of the ah. Imagine that the radiance illuminates and makes visible all things of the world showing them to be essentially unreal and of the nature of a dream.
*2. At dawn*
*A.* Practice pot-shaped breathing seven times
*B.* Resolve eleven times to comprehend the nature of the dream state.
*C.* Concentrate your mind upon a dot, colored bony white, situated between your eyebrows (Point 1 in the 61-point relaxation exercise).
*D.* Continue to focus on the dot until you find that you are dreaming.

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## Xanous

I think he did touch on it briefly. A few references at least. I think he left that stuff up to us. Just sayn'.  ::D:

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## Sageous

^^  Yup, RareCola, what Xanous said!

The techniques that LaBerge mentions are fine, I'm sure, and if you want to use them, go for it.  As I said in the course, it really doesn't matter how you choose to Lie Down, Hold Still, & Wait as long as you pick a method that allows you to maintain your self-awareness throughout the dive.

And again, the techniques LaBerge highlights are certainly good ones, most of them tried-and-true for a very long time.

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## xpin2winx

so sageous why do you recommend attempting WILD's on your back?

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## Sageous

> so sageous why do you recommend attempting WILD's on your back?



Primarily from experience -- the vast majority of my successful WILD's occurred while on my back, with on my right side coming in a distant second.  Aside from that anecdotal evidence (which ought to be enough, I think, given the  overall subjective nature of my course), I believe the sleep yoga folks recommend sleeping on your back if possible, and I've also noticed most reports I've gotten from other accomplished LD'ers over the years included sleeping on their back.

So my suggestion may be based on anecdotal evidence, but who knows?  There may be some consciousness-related brain chemistry that occurs only when you sleep on your back.  Whatever it might be, going to sleep on your back seems to work best.

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## Xanous

I've been thinking... _should_ I try to pick a method or tutorial? Or is strong self-awareness, visualization, and timing all I need to focus on? I have been failing my WILD's by falling asleep but I will often wake from a dream and remember to hold still and just think DEILD and I will hit straight to SP. Then its just relaxing, ignoring the noise, visualizing and keeping false awakenings in mind. (FAs fool me almost every time!) It really shouldn't be complicated should it? I am just trying to simplify somethings here.

And how is DEILD any different than WILD as far as the point where you enter the dream? It seems like weather you WILD or DEILD you still come to the same point where you enter a dream while conscious. Your still doing the same thing just in slightly different ways. Right? If the point of transition _is_ the same then, it helps that I know exactly what that feels like from my DEILDs.

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## Sageous

Xanous:

At the risk of breaking some DVA instructor parameter:

If your self-awareness is strong, and your memory in great shape, you need never _pick_ a method or tutorial! 

If you read them carefully, you'll find that these tutorials are bandages -- patchworks, if you will -- attempts to create a dreaming "mood" that might gloss over or accidentally manufacture the self-awareness and memory which should already have been in place to induce a LD.  Though I did my best to counter this "easy out," even my class offers up "techniques" over pure self-awareness. 

Plus:

There is no complication ... I was doing this stuff decades before any of the techniques were invented, and yet still I managed to do it -- simply by _wanting_ to do so.  In the end, _all you do_ is “lie down, hold still, and wait (LDHSW).”  No more, no less -- if your self-awareness and memory are set, this process will work every time.  It is that simple.

Finally:

Yes, DEILD is the same as WILD.  Indeed, DEILD is just a form of WILD, with its only distinctions from classic WILD being that you do it when you are emerging from a dream and thus avoid most of the noise, falling back to sleep is easier, and you may already have a dream formed for your conscious return to the dreaming.  Strong distinctions, perhaps, but still only distinctions:  DEILD is still WILD.

Bottom line, Xanous: master the fundamentals, and the rest is gravy!

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## Xanous

Clarification! That helps. I over-think things too much. I'll focus on the fundamentals and do it the way I do it. And now I've made the DEILD WILD connection I know what to expect when I get my first true WILD.

Thanks Sageous! Just you explaining or.... err....re-explaining helps me keep it all straight.

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## RareCola

> Clarification! That helps. I over-think things too much. I'll focus on the fundamentals and do it the way I do it. And now I've made the DEILD WILD connection I know what to expect when I get my first true WILD.
> 
> Thanks Sageous! Just you explaining or.... err....re-explaining helps me keep it all straight.



I've been making similar realisations lately. I think the over-thinking just makes for bad schemas, and simply thinking that WILDs are some immensely confusing, hard-to-achieve feat makes it not possible to do them.

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## Xanous

> I've been making similar realisations lately. I think the over-thinking just makes for bad schemas, and simply thinking that WILDs are some immensely confusing, hard-to-achieve feat makes it not possible to do them.



Right on dude. It should come natural. Its just dreaming. We do it every night.  ::D:

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## michalginter

> I had this issue for ages, I eventually found a "I wake up after each of my dreams" mantra to help a lot. I even extended it to "I wake up after each of my dreams and recall them perfectly". Maybe try something like that out?



I've started using "I am going to wake up from a dream in six hours, and recall the dream perfectly." It seems to work. I'm sure I wake up briefly after most of my REM cycles but I don't remember the other awakenings. I probably just roll over and go back to sleep.

Also, I've read in the literature that came with my sleep-monitoring device that natural brief awakenings from REM sleep don't impact the quality of your sleep. In other words, if you wake up, and remain awake for only a few minutes, your body benefits from your sleep as if it were uninterrupted. The obvious exception being, of course, sleep apnoea, but that's another story.

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## Xanous

Sageous, I have noticed my DEILD/WILD transitions are begining to change completely. This morning, I didn't know it at the time, but I was for sure in a SP like state with no physical sensations whatsoever. I "rubbed" my hands together because I was trying to stabilize a lucid dream but It felt and *sounded* so totally *REAL* that I thought I was awake. I could hear the fan vividly and I partially felt my body in the bed. Then, I heard my wife tell me to "punch em in the face." So I thought maybe I was in a SP/Dream state but I dismissed it as her talking in her sleep. I believed this because there were no vibrations or tingles that I am used to having in this in-between stage. I later found out that she was actually sitting up awake with the baby while this was going on an she told me she said nothing. So it was definitely hallucination.

Now I said all that to ask this: Have you experienced a change in how you transition or lucid dream in general? I guess this is why you say over and over that SP is just noise! So I feel like I am relearning WILD now. Maybe I need to re read your class but how do I adjust to this? What are your thoughts? I have talked to another very experienced DV member and she said these changes happen to her as well. So I guess I have to find my own answer here but I was hoping for some guidance.  ::?:

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## Sageous

^^  Ah, Xanous, how you task me!   :wink2: 

First, to answer your question, I think: 

Yes, over the years I noticed a change in how I transition to a LD, and certainly in the nature of the LD as well.  Originally I too allowed the "noise" to hold too much sway, but, having the advantage of terms like SP, HI, or even WILD never crossing my horizon (SP as it's -- incorrectly -- known now wasn't even invented yet), I learned to at first work around the noise and finally to ignore it.  Now my WILD's are downright placid, and noise is nonexistent in my DEILDs.  My LD's have improved as well over the years, and, though I think that comes mostly from practice and hard work on the fundamentals, I think the added focus gained from ignoring meaningless noise has given me an additional awareness toehold once in the dream state.

Now to the other answer that you won't so much want to hear, I think:

I'll start by stealing a quote from the noise session of my WILD class:





> SP is also not a goal in WILD. Let me repeat that: _SP is not a goal in WILD_. One more time for the back rows: _SP is not a goal in WILD!_ You should never, ever, be trying to achieve SP if your ultimate goal is lucid dreaming. To do so is to elevate a normal condition of sleep to a point where it is all you pay attention to, and then, invariably, your chances of LDing will fade behind the empty excitement of SP.



I think your main problem, Xanous, is that you're still dedicating too much of your attention and conscious energy to the noise.  You've simply got to learn to push aside all that noise -- including not only SP and vibrations, but also HI in your case, as it too might prove a real distraction for you.  It may feel innocent at the time, but the very acts of _thinking_ about SP (in any way), deciding what something you might have heard means, or even checking your hands before you're reasonably confident you're in a dream will prove to be nothing more than distractions from your true goal of carrying your self-awareness into a dream.   

Get past this Xanous, and you'll be golden, given your proven skills and powerful expectations and desires.  And, as usual, you may have given yourself the best advice in that this is an answer you made need to work through yourself.  In truth there are no changes; you're just_ seeing more_ as you progress -- how you personally deal with what you see will determine your success, I think.

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## Xanous

> Ah, Xanous, how you task me!  
> 
> First, to answer your question, I think: 
> 
> Yes, over the years I noticed a change in how I transition to a LD, and certainly in the nature of the LD as well. Originally I too allowed the "noise" to hold too much sway, but, having the advantage of terms like SP, HI, or even WILD never crossing my horizon (SP as it's -- incorrectly -- known now wasn't even invented yet), I learned to at first work around the noise and finally to ignore it. Now my WILD's are downright placid, and noise is nonexistent in my DEILDs. My LD's have improved as well over the years, and, though I think that comes mostly from practice and hard work on the fundamentals, I think the added focus gained from ignoring meaningless noise has given me an additional awareness toehold once in the dream state.



That's good to know this is "normal".





> SP is also not a goal in WILD. Let me repeat that: SP is not a goal in WILD. One more time for the back rows: SP is not a goal in WILD! You should never, ever, be trying to achieve SP if your ultimate goal is lucid dreaming. To do so is to elevate a normal condition of sleep to a point where it is all you pay attention to, and then, invariably, your chances of LDing will fade behind the empty excitement of SP.



I always enjoy your sense of humor. I get why you stress that, It's just I have come to rely on certain noise as a signal to know that its time to enter the dream. How else can I know its time? Any examples? Or is that just for me to work out because we are all different?





> I think your main problem, Xanous, is that you're still dedicating too much of your attention and conscious energy to the noise.



Ah your are so spot on! Truth is I have come to enjoy those sensations almost as much as lucidity. But if its a stumbling block I can let that go.





> but also HI in your case, as it too might prove a real distraction for you.



I thought HI was good toward building the dream?





> It may feel innocent at the time, but the very acts of thinking about SP (in any way), deciding what something you might have heard means, or even checking your hands before you're reasonably confident you're in a dream will prove to be nothing more than distractions from your true goal of carrying your self-awareness into a dream.



You just made me realize how much I do this! 





> Get past this Xanous, and you'll be golden, given your proven skills and powerful expectations and desires. And, as usual, you may have given yourself the best advice in that this is an answer you made need to work through yourself. In truth there are no changes; you're just seeing more as you progress -- how you personally deal with what you see will determine your success, I think.



Thanks for the complement. I think I have a better understanding but I am not sure how to deal with it. I am going to go back over the class when I get a chance and see what I forgot or missed. And thanks for the help. It is always so much appreciated!

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## Sageous

> I always enjoy your sense of humor. I get why you stress that, It's just I have come to rely on certain noise as a signal to know that its time to enter the dream. How else can I know its time? Any examples? Or is that just for me to work out because we are all different?



Well, we're not all _that_ different ... I have a feeling that, with the mental prep you seem capable of, you will _know_ when you've reached your dream -- either that or all the images gathering about you will be a dead giveaway!  In other words, all the talk around here about SP etc has clouded the real issue of WILD:  It's not about techniques, or reaching plateaus, or whatever other gobbledygook they're incessantly cooking up on these forums.  No, WILD is all about maintaining your self-awareness while your body naturally falls asleep around you, with your efforts being rewarded by a lucid dream.  Period.  There is no need to rely on the noise -- even if you believe that is the case, I still recommend you ignore it; sorry about that!

Examples?  I got nothing, at least nothing that won't sound plain silly.  Suffice it to say that if you maintain your self-awareness and focus until REM, examples of your own creation will readily appear; it can't be avoided.





> Truth is I have come to enjoy those sensations almost as much as lucidity. But if its a stumbling block I can let that go.



Now that is a different story.  If you enjoy the sensations, and find value in their exploration, then that might be just thing for you -- I can offer no argument against soaking up the crazy stuff your body and mind have to offer.  But if you want to tap the stuff of your spirit, the really crazy stuff, then you must go to the dreamworld, self-awareness (and memory, if possible) intact.  And, yes, if you want to do that consistently through WILD, you'll likely have to let the noise go, at least now and then.





> I thought HI was good toward building the dream?



Normally that is definitely the case. _ Normally._ I waxed counter to my "textbook" in your case because I think the distraction of HI might outweigh its use in forming your dream.  I'm pretty sure I described it as an option in the class anyway, and not a necessity, and if I had my wits about me I might even have warned about taking HI too seriously.  I think you can successfully form a dream without using HI, either by building your own schemas or simply waiting until you find yourself in a dream, and work from there.  Bottom line, there is a chance using HI might not work for you, specifically. 





> I think I have a better understanding but I am not sure how to deal with it. I am going to go back over the class when I get a chance and see what I forgot or missed.



That's a good idea, if I do say so.   I hope it helps ... if not, well, you know where to find me!

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## Xanous

well you've given me a lot to think about. I will definitely be working on this. Thanks again!

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## Sydney

So I've been practicing DEILDing a lot lately.  :Cheeky:  It seems like whenever I actually stay still and don't close my eyes upon awakening, I just lay there in darkness. I'm only aware for a couple of seconds, but before I know it I wake up a couple of hours later.
Is there a reason for why this is? Do I need more awareness? It's like when I wake up totally still I'm in some sort of half-asleep state. Like I'm really drowsy even though my eyes are closed.. so I don't really know what's going on and slip back into sleep.

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## Sageous

^^ It sounds, Sydney, like you're not quite waking up _enough_, odd as that may sound: more awareness would indeed help you, as would memory. 

Why? Because DEILD isn't just a function of almost waking up and then going back to sleep.  You need to both have possession of waking awareness and a real sense of either the dream you were just in or your previously set intentions for the next dream to be lucid.

In other words, DEILD is a transition just like WILD, except without the wait or annoying distractions.  So you still need mental prep for DEILD, and your self-awareness and memory -- those pesky fundamentals-- must be participating.  DEILD doesn't work on its own.  

I suggest Sydney that you do a quick review of Session7 of my class, where I go into a little more detail about DEILD.

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## CJC

Does WILD feel the same toward the end as DIELD does? I know what a DEILD feels like but not a WILD, and i just cant seem to understand it. I think if it was possible to describe exactly what the state of mind  feels like, the tutorial parts would even be needed.

For myself, could you tell me if im on the right track. Sometimes, ill hear voices. Only for a short time, as in one words length. I heard my mom shout "Chris!" to me once. HI probably. If i can keep going in that direction, is that good? What is the cue for you that lets you know you're almost done? Come on, there must be something.

I'm asking this because confidence is a major weakness of mine.

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## Xanous

Hey Sageous, have you ever WILD in a non-lucid dream? I had a dream where I was trying and I hit SP but I got embarrassed because I had family members in the room and I thought they could see me twitching. Does that even make sense or is it an oxymoron?

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## xpin2winx

i managed to have a DEILD the other night and a DILD tonight. Pretty awesome for me to start getting lucids more frequently.

The thing is, I feel like when I DEILD sometimes, i never actually wake up. It seems like there is a brief pause imbetween dreams where my awareness suddenly kicks in and my mind starts battling with itself because it cant dinstinguish the dream from reality so right when i get into the dream, I look at my hands and I either have more or less fingers than normal or something funky is going on with my hands. Its kind of hard to explain but i believe im getting better at this but i still have my doubts. I still have alot of work to do.

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## Taffy

What should I do if I get bored and feel like giving up? I was 20 minutes in last night and felt some vibrations, but they would come and go (I tried not to pay attention to them).

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## Sageous

Sorry for the delay; I've been away...





> Does WILD feel the same toward the end as DIELD does? I know what a DEILD feels like but not a WILD, and i just cant seem to understand it. I think if it was possible to describe exactly what the state of mind  feels like, the tutorial parts would even be needed.



DEILD is a form of WILD, so yes, WILD will feel the same toward the end as DEILD; that could actually be a nice bit of info to hold onto as you progress through your WILD.





> For myself, could you tell me if im on the right track. Sometimes, ill hear voices. Only for a short time, as in one words length. I heard my mom shout "Chris!" to me once. HI probably. If i can keep going in that direction, is that good? What is the cue for you that lets you know you're almost done? Come on, there must be something.



As a matter of fact, when I was first starting all this, and long before I even knew there were terms like HI, I used what I called "my little voices" as a roadmark toward the dream.  I would hear conversations spoken audibly but just quiet enough to be unintelligible, and that would encourage me to renew my focus and remember my intentions.  And yes, I tried more than once to understand what these voices were saying, but when I noticed those efforts were ending my chances of being awake in a dream, I stopped.  

What is the cue for me now?  In truth, it's different every time, dependent on variables like my mood, level of tiredness, focus, and even what I ate that day. I think the only consistent cue for me is the beginning of the dream forming -- when things start appearing that are not HI, but images "trying to be real," I know the dream is seconds away.  I know that wasn't much help, and may not have made sense at all, but it is true:  if your self-awareness is strong enough, you will not need cues; only patience.

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## Sageous

> Hey Sageous, have you ever WILD in a non-lucid dream? I had a dream where I was trying and I hit SP but I got embarrassed because I had family members in the room and I thought they could see me twitching. Does that even make sense or is it an oxymoron?



Many times.  False lucids -- even WILD's, are a regular event with me!

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## CJC

> Sorry for the delay; I've been away...



No prob




> DEILD is a form of WILD, so yes, WILD will feel the same toward the end as DEILD; that could actually be a nice bit of info to hold onto as you progress through your WILD.



Yes, and act as a confidence booster ::D:  





> What is the cue for me now? I think the only consistent cue for me is the beginning of the dream forming -- when things start appearing that are not HI, but images "trying to be real," I know the dream is seconds away.



Hmm, so kind of like the time i posted a while ago about my vivid schema-type HI. Ok this will help! I'll have an even better idea of what its like

Im taking melatonin as a sleep aid now, but interestingly enough it does the opposite; I wake up 2+ times a night now, buuuut, feel alot more tired than i would any other time when i wake up, good for WILD.

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## Sageous

> What should I do if I get bored and feel like giving up? I was 20 minutes in last night and felt some vibrations, but they would come and go (I tried not to pay attention to them).



If you get bored after 20 minutes, which BTW is not a long time in WILDland, before giving up try setting your mantra etc aside, and spend some time imagining just the kind of dream you'd like to be in.  Be as creative as you can -- really get into it.

Doing this might not help your WILD, but it might get you a DILD, or at worst will give you some entertainment to offset the boredom, and the potential of a cool dream might just shift your interest to continue your efforts.

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## Taffy

> If you get bored after 20 minutes, which BTW is not a long time in WILDland, before giving up try setting your mantra etc aside, and spend some time imagining just the kind of dream you'd like to be in.  Be as creative as you can -- really get into it.
> 
> Doing this might not help your WILD, but it might get you a DILD, or at worst will give you some entertainment to offset the boredom, and the potential of a cool dream might just shift your interest to continue your efforts.



Ah, that's a good idea. I'll try that.

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## Athylus

Hey Sageous, I've been reading up a lot about your RRC and it's confusing me a bit. Throughout the day when I do these checks I ask myself the questions you stated, and to give it more feeling I point my eyes upwards (that's what your eyes do if you think of something when you're a visual thinker, which I am) and try to make expressions you use when you're looking for something, an answer. Pretty much thinking about a question that isn't really there. Is that about right?

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## Sageous

^^ You might be getting a bit too abstract in your efforts, Athylus.

An RRC is as simple as it sounds: just think about where you just were, where you are right now, and where you will be in a few minutes, and then about how you are effecting your local reality at that moment, and vise-versa.  You're literally considering your actual moment; there's no need to think about questions that aren't there.  As far as I know, facial expressions won't help in this exercise, but if they help you increase your focus, then go for it.

Bottom line:  you're actually thinking about a question that _is_ there.  Try not to put too much importance on the question itself (you can ask other things), and more on the act of _wondering_ about where you are right now, and what impact your presence is having on reality (and it on you).

I hope that made sense; if it didn't, or I misunderstood you, let me know and I'll try again.

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## Santoryu

Sageous, I've been reading about the self-awareness techniques you posted, and I'm sorry if this question has been asked many times, but what exactly do you mean when you say "think about how you are effecting your local reality at that moment, and vise-versa"?

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## Sageous

^^ I'm happy to answer this again, of course!

What I meant was exactly what I wrote, no more, no less:  everything that you do, say, touch, and extend your shadow over has some effect on your local reality.  _Think_ about the things you just said, or did, and what those words or actions might do to those around you.  _Wonder_ about your very presence in the air around you, and that you are displacing a part of your world simply by moving through it (albeit a small part, but still a part).  And, conversely, think about what effects the world around you might have just had on you... what people said/what you heard, what the weather was like, what the TV or computer might have told you.  The list of things that you effect and will effect, and what effects you and will effect you, is almost limitless, and really _wondering_ about it, and about your place in what's going on around you, will help build your self-awareness and provide you with an excellent tool for recognizing and controlling your dreams, when the time comes.

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## Santoryu

Thanks for that, I think I get it now. Is it like saying, because I'm currently here, existing, I'm effecting everything around me, such as the sofa I'm sitting on reclines a bit when I sit on it and goes back to normal because of my actions. 

Could you think of it as "if I wasn't here, at this moment, I wouldn't be effecting ....."?

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## Sageous

^^ Yes, you got it!

You could Think of it in negative terms ("if I wasn't here at this moment...") during a RRC, and that would help your self-awareness for certain, but keep in mind that the final goal of this exercise is to not just self-awareness, but self-awareness in the context of successfully navigating WILD's.  The difference is important, because in a dream there is no "reality" at all once you're subtracted from it.  I suppose that might be philosophically intriguing duringba high-level LD, and might even inspire some cool nihilistic control, but overall it might only serve to confuse, or, worse, encourage non-lucidity to fill in the voids you're imagining.

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## Buckey

I'm trying to go for a DILD. Is your self-awareness technique better suited for that compared to ADA?

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## Sageous

> I'm trying to go for a DILD. Is your self-awareness technique better suited for that compared to ADA?



In a word:  Yes.

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## Buckey

> In a word:  Yes.



(still a bit new to this, so please don't get too annoyed by my questions)

Is it O.K to make this awareness check followed by a reality check, my main method of trying to get a DILD? Should I be trying anything else along with it?

Do you recommend one or tow RRCs per hour?

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## Sageous

> Is it O.K to make this awareness check followed by a reality check, my main method of trying to get a DILD? Should I be trying anything else along with it?
> 
> Do you recommend one or two RRCs per hour?



Including a RC within a RRC seems a fine idea, as it is a good fit, context-wise.  I don't think I'd add anything else, though; that could lead to complication and confusion, which runs anathema to successful LD'ing.  

Yes, one or two RRC's per hour sounds fine.  :wink2: . Seriously, frequency doesn't matter that much, as long as the RRC's remain significant each time...

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## PitchBlack

is more than that when you get to the really understand it, you pay attention to every detail every move every decision you make, and that will have a major positive influence on your future and those around you . Sweet Dreams  :smiley:

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## Buckey

I'm really starting to question if this is worth it. I do a quick 1-2 minute session every hour; however, it feels like I've not increased my awareness. I guess it's possible I'm just slowly increasing it and I don't notice the change, but I'm not too sure how this is suppose to help me with the DILD technique. I've been doing it for about a week now, so I guess I should keep doing it to get better and better.

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## Sageous

^^ Yup, you should keep at it, Buckey.  A week is not a very long time, when you are doing an exercise meant to adjust your natural, hard-wired, experience of reality itself. This is not a small thing, and can take quite a while. For what it's worth, I've been doing this exercise for years and still am far away from where I want to be, result-wise.  

I suggest that you be patient, give the RRC's a chance to take hold (they will, if you're doing them sincerely each time), and look forward to what _might happen_ rather than assume it isn't working -- negative thoughts about stuff like this can pretty much permanently cancel out your effort.  

Look at it this way:  think in terms of an RRC being a singular experience rather than a thing that's supposed to work.

And yes, RRC's aren't going to help you much with DILD; it's meant for WILD/DEILD.  They'll help, of course, but only _after_ you're already aware that you're dreaming...they're not meant to help you become aware.  For that (becoming aware) regular RC's work much better.  

I hope that helped, and that you hang in there!

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## cuzero

Sorry to bother you Sageous, but I've having a hard time with WILD for a couple of months now. I read through your whole guide and many others, I do everything by the books but nothing ever happens. Most of the times I manage to stay there motionless, and just sleep like normal or I don't sleep at all for a good time during and after the attempt. 
I usually have a hard time sleeping, be it bedtime or night time. Maybe my body is not sleeping at all, maybe I'm focusing too hard on the process, I don't know.

I just created a thread under the WILD section explaining in more detail my experiences and questions about how I'm doing it. I'm not going to spam/paste it here but if you have the time to read it and give me your valuable advice as a experienced lucid dreamer, I'd love to read your opinion. thank you!

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## Sageous

^^ No bother at all, Cuzero!

Based on a quick read of what you wrote, I might be inclined to suggest that you back off WILD for a time, maybe work with DILD or MILD, because those routes to LD's aren't effected by a hard time sleeping, and they work _better_ if you're excited or over-interested, so that extra focus tends to work in your favor.

That said, I'll be sure to check out your thread.  We've got some pretty solid experts and Dream Guides here, so I wouldn't be surprised if I don't need to post -- but I will post there if needed.

Good luck!

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## cuzero

Thanks man. If you have the time to read it I'd be very grateful.

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## LittleStar

I just wanted to post to say that this method really has worked for me. I started about, maybe just over a week ago, and the logic behind it makes sense to me, what use is it to discover you're dreaming, if you don't know that you can affect or change it, and that is what I gleaned from just a read through of the original posts. 

I have been only semi regularly checking my awareness, and honestly have felt very little change outwardly. I don't have epiphany moments, I don't feel any different, but. What I do realise is that in very physical ways I do affect the world, my car would drive if I didn't steer or press the pedals, that sort of thing. For me it doesn't have to be all about dreaming, and I don't think it should be, self awareness needs to be implanted in everything one does. 

As with everyone else, if I'm saying anything wrong here Sageous, I apologise and will gladly be corrected :smiley: 

As for it working for me, I have been trying hard for several months to get lucid, prior to that it was a pass time more than anything, but until I started this course, and I am taking them as they were originally meant, I had little luck with anything. Until last night, maybe it wasn't a direct result of these lessons, but I'm certain they helped, and here's why. I was in a dream, ordinary enough, until I started getting chased, then my awareness kind of slipped away from the dream into a third person aspect, which is kind of my normal state of dreaming rather than third person. I this state i began to commentate on what was happening, 'and then we ran upstairs, or grabbed the bat' that kind of stuff. After a few minutes of this i felt myself shift again, i felt my sleeping body unusually on my back and with my stiff neck twisted to one side, i slipped back into my body, while maintaining the dream in the background. Soon I realised I had begun using my other senses (my eyes were still firmly closed) to see the room around me. I could hear my fish tank, and feel the bed beneath me. I felt the blankets moved when my partner rolled over, I felt my heart beating slowly and listened to my breathing. I could genuinly see my room as though I looked at it through a black veil or dark mist. Once I had realised this, in a split second it took me, I knew I was lucid, and the dream was still playing in the background, so I slipped back into it, taking the role of commentator again. I was coy with doing anything drastic, as I know from brief previous expirences that my stabilisation is woeful, so I just kind of listened and watched to everything unfold before, until I said, 'and then we were lucid' when I woke up with the sound of a rush of air and a feeling of intense excitement or happiness.

Without the awareness of self built up through the practices in this lesson, I would have never realised anything my body was doing, I wouldn't have known when or even what I was feeling. But because I had started to know how I affected the world, it made sense and was closer to relaxing to anything I have ever done before. 
One thing I have discover is, that in my dreams at least, unless from a random RC, or a noticing something wasn't how it was a second before, lucidity comes from intense feeling, in my case twice from being scared. I believe that this intense feeling is something that self awareness can only aid and increase. Without knowing how your body responds to the stimuli around and even within then how can your unconscious mind hope to.

I for one am excited to see what happens tonight and know a large part is because of this course, so thanks, Sageous.

----------


## Phased

What would you think to be the best WILD Technique for a complete beginner?

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## Sageous

For the complete beginner?  I'd probably recommend DILD, or better yet MILD.

However, at the risk of appearing arrogant, I guess I would have to recommend my own class. Why?  Because WILD isn't actually a technique at all, it's a state of mind, where maintaining your frame of reference is more important than any technique or trick, and I think my class does a decent job pointing that out and helping you learn to achieve and maintain that state of mind (that's why I wrote it in the first place).  

I also recommend, for the complete beginner, to sample DILD, MILD, and WILD, because each has something to offer, and each works better or worse with different people.  I also suggest you get and read a copy of LaBerge's _Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming_, if you haven't already.

Good luck with whichever route you choose!

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## Phased

Thanks! - the reason that WILD Stodd out to me is because I tried it once before, I got to some HI and really enjoyed it, which was cool as I was reading how everyone said that it is scary and not to bother. But I liked it and found it interesting, which is why I have always enjoyed it. It just seems so different and amazing that my mind can conjure all these things, dunno.

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## chris1255

Just so I know what to expect, being rapid eye movement, can you actually feel your eyes rapidly moving as you drift into dreamland, or is that a separate sensation altogether?

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## Sageous

^^ You really can't feel them move; there's really no sensation of REM at all, except maybe the sensation of "seeing" the images that are beginning to form in your dream.

Though some say that REM happens whether you're dreaming or not, think of it as the result of your eyes following the action of the dream -- it's that action that matters, BTW, and not so much what your eyes are doing.

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## chris1255

That's very helpful, thanks. I wasn't really expecting an LD, being so early on, but I figured it was worth a shot, and it seems I was doing something physically wrong, then. It might have been closing my eyes too tightly to try to focus more on anything appearing in my vision instead of the light. Being completely relaxed and taking each thought one at a time has always been hard for me. Hopefully this whole pursuit helps in that regard if nothing else.

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## Sageous

I hope it all works for you, chris1255 ... and remember, it's best to always expect a lucid dream, even early on, and even if it takes a while to get there!

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## Yezan

I have been trying to WILD for a couple days. Yes I'm a noob haha, but I went to a park with a waterfall today and it helped me come up with a mantra. "Flow". It will cause my dream to start at a waterfall and help me flow into the dream. So I have a question. I can keep awareness like a pro but I never get into a dream. I hear light noises, twitch, see colors, and feel like I'm spinning and I just can't form the dream. Tips besides WBTB? Ill try that soon enough and I use flex-freeze and counting breath and then mantra on exhale.

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## Sageous

Welcome, Yezan!

First, you should expect to give your WILD attempts more than a couple of days to start working, though it seems you're on the right path.

From what you've written, it seems your problem could be simply one of timing.  You're doing everything right, but you're not catching a REM cycle to easily enter a dream.  In other words, if a REM cycle isn't due for a while, even the best "lie still and wait" process might need to go on for quite some time.  So if you haven't refined your timing yet, now might be the time.

If you think you've got your timing down, you might just be having a problem forming your dream.  This is a bit more complex, but not so bad, because with practice you should be able to use your imagination to work with your sleeping body to bring the dream to you.  You might want to check out the  Forming the Dream session of my WILD class, if you haven't already.

Beyond that, be patient and keep at it ... if you've already got a handle on self-awareness, you're halfway to success!

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## Kamskun

Hey Sageous,  
                   My Reverse RC Routine basically follows like this, at random times, I stop whatever I am doing and remain still for the moment, as the realization of being "aware" of the present sets in, I inspect what was the current thought and the corresponding emotion I had with it, I recall where I was and what I was doing 5 minutes ago and what will I most probably will be doing 5 minutes from now, I also become aware in the sense that I remember that I am actually here right now, and that everything around me has an influence on me as I have on them, how I visualize it is, for instance, If I were near my pet, I am altering it's course of actions with my presence and whatever actions I do, in a way, changing the upcoming reality itself, for instance, If I were to call his name at that moment, then the reality of the next moment is that he will respond to me, and if I were to say, instead of call his name, Ignore his presence and go somewhere else, then the reality of the next moment is him not noticing me and thereby different, so this is how I visualize it, although I do not think into such depth as interaction with other atoms and such, It is somewhat hard to explain, but hope you get the idea. so I want to ask, Am I going about this the right way? As it is now, I think I might be a little confused in understanding what  Reverse RC is, in its entirety. can you please give me some advice?

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## Sageous

^^ I don't know, Kamskun.  By your post I think you understand exactly what a RRC is, in its entirely.  Indeed, your pet example succinctly describes the RRC's ultimate value of clarifying your place in a dream during the dream.  You are indeed going about it the right way; nicely done!

So, for better or worse, I got nothing to add.

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## Kamskun

Thanks for your feedback.  :smiley:

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## TheSilverWolf

Alright, here's my question--to anyone who is experienced in successful WILDing.

When I get to a certain point in my WILD attempts, I get really vivid hallucinations--ones that are far different from your standard lights and shapes and stuff that are often the reference of the term Hypnagogic Imagery. I'm not sure *what* they are; the start of dreams, perhaps? Just really vivid HH? Anyway, take this one for example: I'm relaxed and trying to transition from a waking state to a dream state. After the usual HH such as lights and maybe a sound or two (my body is usually sort of numb and tingly at this state), I was sitting at my kitchen table, telling my mother about my WILD attempt. However, the very second I took notice that this wasn't real, the illusion vanished; just POOF, and it was gone. I'm back to staring at the back of my eyelids, waiting for something to happen. This process will usually repeat itself several times, and this is the point I usually fall asleep during my attempts: after 3 or 4 of these...whatever they are.

Am I close to completing a WILD? Note that they aren't disappearing because I'm excited; I'm usually calm when I notice this. It's almost like the act of realizing that it's not real makes the illusion evaporate. So what are these? Are they hypnagagic hallucinations? Are they little mini dreams? If I successfully make it through these aware, will I be in that state where I can transition into a dream? Or, should I be able to somehow use those TO transition? If so, how am I supposed to do it, when the second I realize they aren't real, they vanish?

Hoping someone can clear this up for me :s

~SilverWolf~

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## Sageous

I just noticed this thread... rather than start a new thread here, you might do well to either post directly in one of the existing Q & A threads in this forum, or else go to the regular WILD forum and post there, as no one will see it here (even me!).

That said:  yes, those were dreamlets, in my opinion. They tend to occur when you're drifting in that place between sleep and wake, where your state allows dreams to begin, but you're still not fully "in" yet.  That's why the dreamlets vaporised when you noticed them.

Yes, you were indeed close to completing your WILD! That drifting between states moment means that the actual dream is just around the corner.  If this happens again -- and it might just -- I suggest that you let the dreamlets pass and consider yourself close to the dream state.  Don't be concerned about them, or their disappearance, as they are very difficult to hold onto.  You could use their schemata to help you in forming your dream, but they'll likely be gone before the actual dream arrives.

I hope that helped; let me know if it didn't...

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## fogelbise

Wasn't sure if I should continue on this thread...I had similar...from my DJ:

attempted wild nap  
by fogelbise  , 08-16-2013 at 05:42 PM
Thought I would note this because it was unusual for me. I was planning on just doing a regular late afternoon cat nap but noticed the dreamlets starting to pop up and decided to try to wild but every time a new dreamlet would pop up I would seem to wake myself too much by paying attention to them. The interesting thing was that I had something like 12 to 14 different dreamlets or mini dreams in maybe a 20 minute span. Each one was very distinct and not the sort of things that would pop into my mind daydreaming... very dream like in their unusual subject matter. They weren't just images but scenarios with action and some with dialogue.

PS..since I needed to get up after 20 minutes I didn't continue. I assume being aware of mini dreams or dreamlets are not LDs, but do we call that awareness anything?

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## Sageous

Yeah, the WILD Q & A thread would have worked fine, but here we are...

Since you're aware of the dreamlets, I guess you can call them "lucid dreamlets" when you're consciously aware of them.   :wink2: 

Seriously, I'm pretty sure they don't have an official name.  I don't think they really need one, since, because of their extremely ephemeral nature, they really don't amount to any more than the rest of the "noise" you experience on the way to your dream.  So try not to take them too seriously; just let them slide on by, or, at the most, try to use them to form your actual dream (this is harder than you might think, because you're still a bit to close to wakefulness, and risk waking up if you attempt to prolong or control a dreamlet).

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## Sivason

> I don't think they really need one, since, because of their extremely ephemeral nature, they really don't amount to any more than the rest of the "noise" you experience on the way to your dream.  So try not to take them too seriously; just let them slide on by, or, at the most, try to use them to form your actual dream (this is harder than you might think, because you're still a bit to close to wakefulness, and risk waking up if you attempt to prolong or control a dreamlet).



This is great advice. I often joke that H.H and H.I. hate to be looked at directly. You are still too close to awake, and the very act of paying direct attention can move you towards the awake side of things. It is a bit of an art to learn to let them slide past as Sageous says,,, but it is an art worth developing. The stuff that happens too early may seem neat, but in order to observe it, and not harm your chance at an LD it is going to take a subtle frame of mind. The stuff is there,,, you are there,,, that is witnessing in a way, but to focus is a mistake.

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## OpheliaBlue

> I often joke that H.H and H.I. hate to be looked at directly.



Haha! It's funny because it's so true. I'll sometimes get little chains of dreamlets like this as well. And I agree, it's all just part of the transition process. I rarely if ever even record them in my journal (bad, I know, I should).. but it's for the simple reason that it is just part of transitioning.

I tend to agree with fogelbise, that there is a modicum of awareness going on there. Again, all signs pointing the way for a lucid dream. The trick to these dreamlets (or any other transitional element), is NOT to treat them as things that you have to grab and forcefully form into a lucid dream, but rather, treat them as phases and let them slide on by. Later on, when you attempt WILD again, you'll be able to note these mini aware dreams as milestones, which will guide you on to lucidity.

All that said, yoh @ *Sageous*! Do you want me to merge this thread into the WILD Q&A thread?

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## JoannaB

That's an interesting question. I had been up until now assuming that those little vivid images of vivid movies that I get at times as I fall asleep are HH because I believe myself not to be asleep yet. However, perhaps I am mistaken in that. Perhaps they are dreamlets after all. One of my favorites the other night was this busy looking woman who looked like she was on staff in a doctor's office with a clipboard, and she bussled up to me, and said in an accusing voice "What are _you_ doing here?" Like I do not belong. And I thought at her "Falling asleep" and I think she then hustled off, but alas I did not fall asleep, but woke up instead, probably because I had focused on her too much.

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## Sageous

> All that said, yoh @ *Sageous*! Do you want me to merge this thread into the WILD Q&A thread?



Yes please!  I would've done it myself, but I don't have a clue...

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## OpheliaBlue

> Yes please!  I would've done it myself, but I don't have a clue...



Ok fixed.

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## TheSilverWolf

The problem is, I'm not even aware of them until I suddenly realize "hey, I'm hallucinating" and then I don't get the chance to let them go by, because they are gone by this time. A tease, really  :Sad:

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## Sageous

^^ That seems a nice way to look at the dreamlets (and HI, for that matter): as teases.  Just like movie trailers.

If instead of thinking, "Hey, I'm hallucinating," why not think something more timely (in this case) like, "There goes an hallucination; the dream itself must be right around the corner," and then let the memory of the dreamlet help carry you into the dream.  If you can't avoid them, you might as well put them to work for you.

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## TheSilverWolf

That's the thing though--is I lose awareness for a short time, and when I become aware it's like a sudden jolt--like, there's this little dreamlet right? And suddenly, I'm aware again. But it's like the shock of suddenly becoming aware again shatters the dreamlet. Kinda hard to explain. I suppose some form of MILD might help this, suggesting to myself I will ease into awareness instead of it being so sudden.

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## Sageous

^^ Yup.  Some sort of MILD or other mental prep will definitely help; indeed, the very act of writing these posts and thinking about the problem is likely helping!  If your mind is prepared for the sudden snap of awareness, or, better, if you manage to learn to avoid losing awareness in the first place, that shock will diminish or at least become just more noise that you're effectively dealing with on the way to the dream.

So, I suggest some additional mental prep, either with MILD (i.e., telling yourself before the dream that you will not be effected by the shock), by building a set of expectations that includes dealing with the shock, or by simply learning to hold onto your awareness throughout the dive.

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## FryingMan

Every once in a rare while in WL, I'll  get these "waking up" moments where I just stop and feel like all life has been a dream, my vision is a sort of "screen" that I'm watching, and I wonder at the nature of existence, etc.   Is that  the sort of thing you're looking for in this RRC or is is a different sort of "AHA" moment?

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## Sageous

That experience, though interesting and something you should value, seems different from a RRC.  In a RRC, you would be _on_ that screen you're watching: its general purpose is to help you realize that you are an integral part of your immediate reality, and that your interaction with it has effects. To watch reality from a removed position (outside that screen) and, oddly, to see it as a dream, tends to separate you from that feeling of interaction, and does not do much to prepare you for sensing that interaction in a dream.

So, though it is an interesting moment, and you should pay attention to it for a variety of other existential reasons (like, that sort of moment gives you a chance to view the world from angles or perspectives not usually available, which we all should do), this moment is not really like an RRC -- however, _following_ the moment with an RRC might be most helpful, because your mind is already in the right place!

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## Sageous

*Some Due Diligence:*

FryingMan just PM'ed me with a question about my apparent shift on the choices of Mantra's on the What Happened? thread in this forum, and it seemed like something that ought to be shared.  So here it is:





> Hi Sageous,
>   Rather than spam the "what happend" thread, I'll PM -- I just reread the mantra session and came away again with the notion that the mantra is a general awareness thing, not related to the specific dream you're interested in.   You do mention "relevant to goals" but it's not clear that goals are general (go to sleep aware) vs. specific to the dream (I'm at a party in a park).   Just my probably overly detail-focused opinion .   It does seem that the recommendation is to come up with a generic mantra that is "meaningful" to you.   Maybe some more guidance as to what the meaning should be about would be helpful.   Thanks again for all your help.



Huh.  I just reread my mantra session (which I haven't done in, like, a year), and sure enough you are correct.  Know what else?  I like what I said then much better than what I just said on the What Happened? thread.  

Both are correct, I think, and though my opinion of building a mantra that matches your goals is still my current favorite, if I really had to weight the two options, having one or two "generic" mantras that mean something globally to you, regardless of your current dream goals, is probably the better way to go.  

It's funny how the mind evolves; a year ago I never would have said to relate a mantra directly to your dream plans, and now it's almost all I do... with no regard to my own original instruction.  Go figure.  Whatever the case, in terms of building a proper "mindfulness baseline," a general mantra is a much better choice. Sorry to confuse!

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## FryingMan

Sageous,
   Carrying on from our PM discussion: yes,  clarification on just what you're talking about with visualization WRT WILDing would be appreciated  :smiley: .

OK on the subject of visualization: I'm still not clear on just what your suggestion is.   One can visualize a desired WILD dream during the day, like in MILD and reflection/intention, I get that.   But what I'm not sure about and what I'd like to understand is how much / what kind of visualization to do, if at all, *during the dive*, while one is LDHSW + mantra.   And what do you mean by layering visualization over the mantra?

If I can get away without any visualization during the dive I suspect this will help me get to sleep faster.   But I'd like to know if this increases the risk of arriving in the dream state with nothing to see but the back of one's eyelids.   Heck arriving even in my room would be fine, at least I could get up and move and try flying out the window or something, but getting lucid with absolutely no dream there (if that's what happened to me) is...well, pointless?   You mentioned that could have been a timing thing for me (no useful REM left).     I don't see visualization part of other WILD tutorials, other than specifically VWILD.

So I think a discussion of: 1) just what you're suggesting to students, and 2) what you personally do yourself would be very enlightening!

thanks!

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## StephL

Ah - here we are once more - FryingMan - you have indeed the same questions, I feel - but I need some more time to distil them from this and the other thread of Sageous and my and your and his and more earlier posts - and my head, too!

I´ve also been checking out the mantra lesson once more.
Pointless post, this - sort of - but a reminder for me to try and be concise about it all later on!

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## Sageous

> OK on the subject of visualization: I'm still not clear on just what your suggestion is.   One can visualize a desired WILD dream during the day, like in MILD and reflection/intention, I get that.   But what I'm not sure about and what I'd like to understand is how much / what kind of visualization to do, if at all, *during the dive*, while one is LDHSW + mantra.



I really can't tell you that, FryngMan.  How you visualize, what you visualize, and even when you visualize is totally up to you depending on your skills, your desires, and where ultimately this visualization takes you.  You'll need to do a little experimenting on your own, to see what works for you (something this personal will work differently for each person). I know that's not what you want to hear, but I believe it is the case.  This is one reason that I don't talk much about visualization (other than that I'm really bad at it myself and can offer zero anecdotal "wisdom").





> And what do you mean by layering visualization over the mantra?



I'm sorry, I thought it was you I was discussing this with; must have been someone else!  What I mean by this is quite simple.  If you are visualizing a dream place or goal, try to hold that visualization in your mind as you recite your mantra and allow yourself to fall asleep.  In other words, let the visualization be a quiet blanket of imagination or dimension over your otherwise unchanged mantra/LDHSW routine.





> If I can get away without any visualization during the dive I suspect this will help me get to sleep faster.   But I'd like to know if this increases the risk of arriving in the dream state with nothing to see but the back of one's eyelids.   Heck arriving even in my room would be fine, at least I could get up and move and try flying out the window or something, but getting lucid with absolutely no dream there (if that's what happened to me) is...well, pointless?    I don't see visualization part of other WILD tutorials, other than specifically VWILD.



Speaking as someone who has enjoyed thousands of WILDs without an ounce of visualization, I can safely confirm that yes, you can do without it and still arrive at an actual dream.  

So yes, you can leave out visualization, as it is not fundamentally a part of WILD anyway.  If it doesn't serve to help you, especially if it keeps you from falling asleep, then set visualization aside for a while.  

For what it's worth, one of my long-term practices/goals in LDing is _specifically_ to "get lucid with absolutely no dream there," so you might not want to sell such an experience short.  Being self-aware during NREM/delta sleep can be an amazing experience; I even started a thread  on the subject once upon a time called Exploring Delta Sleep. However, you likely wouldn't "see" the backs of your eyelids during delta:

As you note I said somewhere else, that seeing-the-backs-of-your-eyelids moment very likely had more to do with your physical state (i.e. your body's sleep cycle was already concluded, and more dreaming -- or sleep -- might not have been in the pipeline) than it did a failure of your WILD attempt.  Indeed, from what I read, I think I drew the conclusion that your attempt actually succeeded, and there was simply no dream waiting for you.  That will not happen every time (though it could be _likely_ to happen again if you continue to harbor expectations that it will!  :wink2: ). 





> So I think a discussion of: 1) just what you're suggesting to students, and 2) what you personally do yourself would be very enlightening!



That would be great, especially if there are some successful creative visualizers out there who can chime in with info or advice that can modify my lame first response in this post!

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## FryingMan

> I really can't tell you that, FryngMan.  How you visualize, what you visualize, and even when you visualize is totally up to you depending on your skills, your desires, and where ultimately this visualization takes you.  You'll need to do a little experimenting on your own, to see what works for you (something this personal will work differently for each person). I know that's not what you want to hear, but I believe it is the case.  This is one reason that I don't talk much about visualization (other than that I'm really bad at it myself and can offer zero anecdotal "wisdom").



That's fine, but I don't recall reading that from you before, in the sessions, Q&A, etc.   So thus my confusion when you were asking me about my visualization or mentioning the visualisation.   "What visualization is he talking about, I don't recall anything about any visualization during LDHSW from Sageous?" was my response.   And thus my follow up questions and so we got to this point.

So I think it would really help clear things up if you have something in the session that specifically mentions this optional layered visualization, what it's good for, etc.

And if I may ask a follow-up, just what *is* the point of the layered visualization?   To make sure one arrives in that particular scene?   If the only reason is to help stay awake, I can safely ignore it at this point since that is so not my issue with WILDs right now  :smiley: .

As always thanks for your thoughtful and patient replies!

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## Sageous

^^ I could be wrong, but I believe I was talking about visualization in response to a question from _you_ (or perhaps someone else). I was not pulling a suggestion that you visualize from my own imagination or whim. If you'd share with me where I brought up visualization on my own, I'd appreciate it.  Aside from using it to help form your dreams from HI, I really have no use for visualization in WILD, so I'm just not seeing myself asking after it in other people.

So, since visualization is not included in any real way in my WILD class, my suggestion of layering your visualization over your mantra is certainly not going to be there... nor will it be, because I made that suggestion in response to your reports and requests, thinking that it might help you.  I have no interest in adding visualization to my WILD class -- mostly because it doesn't need to be there. Regarding being more specific about it, I'm not sure I can add more to what I already said.  And it's point?  Well, that too was up to you and your use of it, but I guess that suggesting layering your visualization over your WILD attempt was so that it would be included in your WILD attempt, and perhaps enhance it.  Nothing more.  This is not some new technique meant to do some specific thing, you could certainly ignore it if your feel like it.

I am more than willing to adopt new ideas and look for new routes toward making WILD's work for individuals, FryingMan, and I'm willing to admit that my own perception of WILD and LD'ing in general is in a constant state of flux, but those adoptions are in addition to the basic WILD method I've outlined (repeat: outlined) on this forum. This is not a comprehensive text by any measure, so  I hope you won't mind if I don't feel compelled to go back and edit (or defend) the original course as we all work together to find ways -- even novel ways -- to become lucid through WILD. The WILD class, I feel, is a good foundation for the process, but it isn't everything -- and I have neither time nor inclination to include _everything_ in the class.

If any of this is unclear, to anyone, please ask. This I think is important.

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## FryingMan

Hi Sageous,
    Post #680 in What Happened? thread:




> Yes. we're supposed to keep some visualization and/or some aspect of the desired dream in our minds throughout the dive.



I think it's a case of ballooning misinterpretations on my part.   Yes, I brought visualizations up first.  I was asking, "should I be doing this? [during the dive]"   I thought it may be disadvantageous to do this, too simulating perhaps.   I'm simply trying to figure out how to do WILD "right," per your recommendations.   It's probably my fault in reading too much into various responses.

Your answer quoted above, "yes, we're supposed to..."    My confusion: "Hmm, we're 'supposed to', but I don't see it mentioned in the class sessions."

Probably not worth spending any more time on it.

The earlier answer of "visualizations not required" cleared everything up.

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## Sageous

^^  Well that makes sense, I guess.  In hindsight I do wish you had noticed the "and/or" sentence in that post initially, as it would have made my position pretty clear and would have saved us both some trouble.  Oh well, by-gones, as they say.

Moving on...

 ::cheers::

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## AnotherDreamer

I found your thread and I've been trying the method that you outline. The problem that I'm encountering is that I'm really stressed right now. So when I try to let the dream form itself first, and then I mold it second, it ends up being me watching memories and actions repeated over and over. That's the first place that it goes. 

Usually I try to WILD by involving all of my senses in it until I am there (smelling the air, feeling the earth beneath my feet, seeing the location, hearing the surroundings). So there isn't a step where I don't have complete control. Last night, I tried the WBTB WILD method again, after about 6 hours of sleep. Then I sat there watching the previous day's memories being repeated over and over and over for about 2 hours, hoping it would eventually turn into a REM dream, until I had finally had enough and I woke myself up. 

Do you know if this is normal under times of stress? Is there a way that I can get past it, I must be doing something wrong right? Or should I just wait until I'm no longer this stressed to try it again?

Sorry for all of the questions, I appreciate any help that you can give me.

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## Sageous

^^ I don't know if these things are normal during stressful times, but I'm not surprised.  WILD is all about being relaxed and keeping your mind as still as you can, so if you are suffering from stress that prevents relaxation, WILD would be very difficult.

In a sense you literally are doing something wrong by trying WILD when your mind is being besieged by stress.  I suggest that you work on the relieving the stress, and hold off on attempting any WILD dives until you can relax witout interruption.  It's always a good idea to keep up the mental-prep daytime work, though!

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## Sivason

> I found your thread and I've been trying the method that you outline. The problem that I'm encountering is that I'm really stressed right now. So when I try to let the dream form itself first, and then I mold it second, it ends up being me watching memories and actions repeated over and over. That's the first place that it goes. 
> 
> Usually I try to WILD by involving all of my senses in it until I am there (smelling the air, feeling the earth beneath my feet, seeing the location, hearing the surroundings). So there isn't a step where I don't have complete control. Last night, I tried the WBTB WILD method again, after about 6 hours of sleep. Then I sat there watching the previous day's memories being repeated over and over and over for about 2 hours, hoping it would eventually turn into a REM dream, until I had finally had enough and I woke myself up. 
> 
> Do you know if this is normal under times of stress? Is there a way that I can get past it, I must be doing something wrong right? Or should I just wait until I'm no longer this stressed to try it again?
> 
> Sorry for all of the questions, I appreciate any help that you can give me.




This still was an interesting nREM experience and should not be counted as a failure. That type of sequence is very hard to work with, but you were aware during sleep,,, so ::thumbup::

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## bluremi

_[This post, and the one below, were copied from the What Happened? thread - S.]_

Sageous:

What do you think about "Forced Falling Asleep", which is a technique where you try to quickly fall asleep and let go of consciousness, with the intention of immediately taking it back after about 10 seconds have passed? It's used to make yourself fall asleep faster.

I find during WILD attempts that I often reach a stage of clarity and acute awareness where sleep seems very far off. The awareness seems unshakable, like in the middle of a meditation session. I start interrupting my mantra with quick bouts of FFA in order to try to induce sleep, which tends to bring on the "noise."

I feel like maintaining awareness is not a problem for me, but it seems to coincide with staying firmly awake.

Do you have any opinions on this?

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## Sageous

^^ I suppose I could summon an opinion about this, Bluremi!  :wink2: 

In my opinion, I think that FFA's (I didn't know it had become an acronym-worthy term, BTW) are pretty much only possible with the help of powerful anesthesia or perhaps a good crack with a lead pipe -- neither of which I'd recommend you ever do to yourself.  We are simply not wired to force ourselves to fall asleep.  

I suppose an adept at meditation, or perhaps someone with incredibly strong willpower might be able to force an unnaturally speefy drop into sleep, but we mere mortals must live with at least a short wait as our minds and bodies work their ways into sleep mode. Narcoleptics might have success at FFA as well, though it would stem more from timing than technique, and I wouldn't wish narcolepsy on anyone (it is not a fair trade). Also, doing something extreme like keeping yourself awake for more than a day or two won't help either, because that kind of exhaustion is not terribly conducive to LD'ing.  Indeed, I would see attempts to force yourself to fall asleep backfiring regularly, if only because you will be using _more_ consciousness (focus) in order to force yourself to let go of consciousness.   

So, in my opinion, you should  probably question the sense or value of this technique.

_But wait, there's more:_

Let's say, however, that I'm totally wrong, and there is a way for us to let our consciousnesses go and force ourselves to sleep quickly and at will -- or perhaps I misunderstood you, and you were talking about some other sort of release of consciousness.  Let's say FFA's are not a problem: _Then what?_ 

If we have allowed a full release of our self-awareness in the name of falling asleep, doesn't that mean we're _asleep_, period?  Once you've started your sleep cycle, there is no internal way that I know of to bring consciousness back, barring a DILD later in the night -- which seems more than possible, given the mental prep you would have to put into this exercise.  Once you're out, you're out; there is no mechanism I know of to return your self-awareness to a sleeping mind 10 seconds later, regardless of intention. This is especially true if you do a FFA right before an NREM period, where mundane concepts like "10 seconds" simply do not exist.  I personally know of no way back.

And yes, I can see how trying a FFA in the middle of a WILD might bring on the noise, as you confuse your settling mind with new stimulus and focus that run at odds with what you've been doing so far (which is already at odds with the normal falling to sleep routine). After all wouldn't you would be trying to fall asleep while you are trying to stay awake while you are falling asleep? It's confusing just to write it down!

I suggest, Bluremi, that you take this technique with a grain of salt.  It doesn't hurt to try it, of course, since we learn something from all these things.  But at the same time you might try putting a little more focus on combining your strong awareness skills with some patience, and perhaps discover a way to get that awareness to coincide with your dreams as well.

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## Eamo24

Sageous,

I was just wondering, should your chosen mantra be carried all the way into the lucid dream, or only until you get to the HI, from which you can start to form a dream?

Thanks

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## Sageous

^^ I've never seen any reason to hold the mantra straight into the dream, though I suppose something could be said in favor of doing so (i.e., it will help hold your focus fast in the dream as well, and might be a good tool for remembering your goals).  Generally, for me, a mantra is a powerful tool for getting you to and through the critical transition from wake to sleep.  Once you are asleep, and a dream is on tap, I don't think it is necessary anymore.  

Also, keep in mind that HI is merely noise that you may or may not encounter at some point during a WILD; HI is by no means a thing you want to "get to," and if you abandon your focus because you encountered some HI, you likely will also be abandoning your WILD.  Try to consider HI a handy milepost, should you encounter it, and, unless you have a plan for using its imagery to help you form your dream, try to ignore it.

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## Eamo24

Thanks, usually on my WILD attempts though, I experience a lot of ‘noise’, usually in the form of sensations like Sleep paralysis or vibrations etc. and I find ignoring it to be extremely difficult. I tried some things like combining the mantra with visualizations or a dream scene to try and ignore it, but for some reason, I can’t seem to fully steer my mind away from it (even though I know it’s only a milepost), and the WILD attempt usually starts to fade or end very quickly. Is there anything you would recommend for making ignoring the noise a bit easier? Thanks a lot.

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## Sageous

^^ Well, using that mantra straight to the dream might be a good idea in your case, because it will give you a handle to which to cling while weathering HI.  

There's not much else you can do, beyond trying to remember that, "noisy" as it may get around you, this stuff is nothing special and just needs to pass on by.  You could also do something to occupy your mind, like thinking about the coming dream, to offset the distractions of HI... It sounds like you're already trying to do all these things, though, so you likely are on the right path -- you might only need some time to finally get used to the noise, and let it exist beside you as you head for your dream.

Also, if you can never learn to ignore the noise, there is always DILD and DEILD!

Sorry these weren't answers you wanted to hear, but dealing with the noise really is subject to experience and practice, and not a handy trick or two.

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## Eamo24

Yes I think the noise is my only main difficulty, however, I’m sure continued practice will help to overcome that eventually. Thanks again for your advice!

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## Eamo24

Sageous,

Sorry to bother you again.

As WILD still isn’t going so well I have decided to try doing ‘The Other WILD’ (DEILD). I used autosuggestion to remember to stay still upon awakening and have managed to do this on a few occasions. Upon awakening, I would imagine being back in the dream I’ve just come from, or would try to create a new one, however, I can never seem to get back into the dream and have waited sometimes up to 30 minutes without anything happening. Usually I would just get tired of waiting before eventually just changing sleeping position and going back to sleep normally. Sometimes it feels as if I’m trying to do a regular WILD. Is there something I’m not doing right about DEILD?

Also, if a REM period ends and you awaken from a dream, does that mean you have to wait a while in NREM sleep until another REM period comes along so you can enter a dream again?

Thanks for your time.

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## Sageous

> As WILD still isnt going so well I have decided to try doing The Other WILD (DEILD). I used autosuggestion to remember to stay still upon awakening and have managed to do this on a few occasions. Upon awakening, I would imagine being back in the dream Ive just come from, or would try to create a new one, however, I can never seem to get back into the dream and have waited sometimes up to 30 minutes without anything happening. Usually I would just get tired of waiting before eventually just changing sleeping position and going back to sleep normally. Sometimes it feels as if Im trying to do a regular WILD. Is there something Im not doing right about DEILD?



It's hard to say what you're doing wrong, mostly because you might be doing _nothing_ wrong, and just need to try it a few times, but here are a couple of thoughts:

First, you might be trying too hard.  DEILD for me is very much an intuitive process.  In other words, it's based more on your mindset -- your expectations, intentions you set the night before, and, of course, a hearty portion of self-awareness -- than it is on any particular technique.  What a shock, right? So, you may perhaps be trying too hard to get back into a dream.  Also, if you're trying for 30 minutes, you're actually back to doing a classic WILD, and have left the DEILD attempt behind.  When you awaken, instead of getting immediately to "work," just lie there quietly, _mentally_ quietly, and let yourself hold onto the dream you were just in.  You don't have to try to reproduce it, or really to force anything at all.  Just stay dreamy, and stay asleep.  Which brings me to my next thought:

I suggest that you rethink using autosuggestion to wake yourself up.  Sometimes autosuggestion works too well, and your obliging unconscious will see that you are fully awake immediately.  This is not as far-fetched as it sounds, because the triggers to ignite your reticular system (the bit of your brain in charge of waking you up) are easily pulled.  So autosuggesting yourself awake might work too well; as in alarm-clock-well, and you don't want that.  

Also, DEILD seems to work best when you capitalize on those brief moments of near-waking that we all do all night -- even during REM periods later on in the sleep cycle (more in a sec) -- so, instead of programming yourself to waken, I suggest you work on preparing yourself to be ready to notice those brief near-waking moments, and attempt your DEILD then.  This is not as hard as it sounds, and with a little practice you'll be catching yourself on the bridge between wake and sleep regularly.

*Bottom line:* don't try too hard, and auto-suggesting yourself awake might not be the best idea. 





> Also, if a REM period ends and you awaken from a dream, does that mean you have to wait a while in NREM sleep until another REM period comes along so you can enter a dream again?



Yes, it does, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.  If you know you are in NREM, and are lucid, you can enjoy a few peaceful moments of stimulus-free consciousness while your next dream spools up.  Also, as NREM has its own value, you can capitalize on being there and doing a little exploring! 

If however, you are attempting DEILD's after several hours of sleep (as you should be doing), REM periods are close enough together that your dreamworld will never be too far off.  And, as I said above, if you "almost" wake naturally, instead of forcing yourself fully awake, you will likely be even closer to a REM period.

I'm not sure this all made sense, so be sure to ask again if anything is confusing, or if I managed to once again fully contradict something I said in the session...

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## Eamo24

Thanks, that’s some very helpful advice! About the brief ‘near-waking’ moments you mentioned, how should I go about preparing myself to notice when they happen? Is there a difference in this compared to the autosuggestion I was trying before?

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## Sageous

^^ That's a good question. I think the best way to prepare yourself is to develop your self-awareness during the day (through things like RRC's introspection, building expectation -- you know the drill!).  If you can come to a mental place where you are always remembering your presence in reality, then recognizing the state of that reality (in this case, a dream exit), should be fairly easy.  Unfortunately, there is no rote technique that you can just do to observe those near-waking moments -- not one that I know of, anyway.  But if your mind is prepared and open to recognize changes in its own state (the polar opposite of its "ignore all changes" default state), DEILD's won't be a problem.

And, of course, if you are already successfully DILDing, DEILD's from LD's are very easy, since you are already in a lucid state and able to recognize that near-waking state as it happens.

I think this action of noticing the near-waking state before DEILD is much different that auto-suggesting yourself to induce an actual waking state.  If you can do it, autosuggestion is a good thing, and can help you with MILD's, especially.  But it is something of a blunt tool, so it will tend to make things happen to you, rather than allow you to observe changes occurring within you.  Now I could be wrong, and if you can auto-suggest yourself to be "ready to notice" a subtle change in your environment that means you are close to waking consciousness, then go for it.  

Bottom line, I guess, is that the best way to learn to consistently recognize and work with that near-waking state is through practice, practice, practice.  There is no real trick to it, but eventually you won't need one. It would also help to have some successful DILD's that occur just before waking.

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## FryingMan

Just wrote a long response that my browser ate.  Hope it was tasty, Safari!




> When you awaken, instead of getting immediately to "work," just lie there quietly, mentally quietly, and let yourself hold onto the dream you were just in. You don't have to try to reproduce it, or really to force anything at all. Just stay dreamy, and stay asleep. Which brings me to my next thought:



Yes, this!




> It would also help to have some successful DILD's that occur just before waking.



and this!

I for the first time reentered a dream after waking from a lucid dream last night.   The lucid moment was super short at the end of a longer dream, just a brief moment of lucidity while waking up.   Because the lucidity was so short I was not very awake/aware, and not feeling compelled to record it in my journal, I just lay there not moving, very lightly considering the dream, and being tired, just fell back asleep...

... and I re-entered the dream!   It felt like a false awakening (which I did not catch).  Alas, non-lucidly, and in a room to the side.   I eventually explored and found the room where I had become lucid while waking earlier.

In retrospect, I followed all the advice of how to DEILD without actually intending to DEILD: remained still, quietly thought of the dream, and just drifted back to sleep.

It was a real eye-opener, and I really feel now the difference between this successful dream re-entry, and my failures at DEILD attempts at waking up from all my other LDs.

With my other DEILD attempts from longer LDs, I think more intensely about the LD, my mindset is not  sleepy & calm, usually I'm excited or a bit frustrated at waking from the dream, I'm trying to thoroughly recall all the dream details in order to journal the dream in detail, running over and over the dream details in my mind.    Now, I have felt what it's like to fall back into the dream, I have a better idea of the mindset it takes to successfully DEILD.   As Sageous said, *mental quiet* is the key.

I'd like to practice DEILD when waking from normal dreams, too, as my ND waking mindset is compatible with DEILD, but I'm typically never aware of the waking process from normal dreams, and I typically do not recall dreams without explicitly calling for recall, e.g., "What was I just dreaming about?".

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## Eamo24

Sageous,

I like the idea of increasing self-awareness, and the RRC concept really helps. I’m still, though, a little confused about some things:

Do you mean that to succeed at DEILD requires boosting your self-awareness to such an extent that you can naturally realize changes as subtle as a dream-exit? You also said that it would be better to avoid using autosuggestion, however, you mentioned that DEILD also requires the building of expectation/intention the night before. I was thinking that wouldn’t this be similar to autosuggestion? I’m still just slightly confused as to how it all comes together, and what the ‘practice’ would consist of when working towards noticing the near-waking state. Thank you again for your answer, hopefully I won’t have too many more questions  :smiley: !

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## Sageous

> Do you mean that to succeed at DEILD requires boosting your self-awareness to such an extent that you can naturally realize changes as subtle as a dream-exit?



No.  

First:  Yes, if your self-awareness is at a level where you can consistently notice subtle changes in your state, then doing DEILD's (and classic WILD's, and DILD's) will be a snap.  I really think that self-awareness is the key to all of this, so excellent self-awareness skills would indeed be a great foundation for triggering LD's and accessing memory to make those LD's well worth the trip.

But that is not the whole story.  Yes, awesome self-awareness would solve all your problems, but it is not the only solution or requirement.  Though you will always need some self-awareness to successfully DEILD (and LD in general), you can augment it with things like timing (i.e., do those DEILD's late in the sleep cycle), expectation/intention (i.e. plan regularly on doing DEILD's; add an intention to remember to do a DEILD when the dream ends), and simply repetitively practicing DEILD's.  I think if you get in a routine of regularly attempting DEILD's, especially after LD's, you'll find yourself successful more and more often.  Indeed, I don't even think about DEILD's anymore; I just reach for them as a tool when I find the dream I'm in to be one worth returning to after my body finishes its required "wake-up" period... and I'm not boasting; just confirming that DEILD's can become quite easy, once you've gotten your mind and body used to doing them (as opposed to classic WILD's, which I still find difficult, even after countless successful dives).

So yes, perfect self-awareness would certainly solve your DEILD problems, and many others.  But, given that that perfect self-awareness is pretty much unobtainable by we mere mortals, there are other bits to DEILD that help support spotty or minimal self-awareness.





> You also said that it would be better to avoid using autosuggestion, however, you mentioned that DEILD also requires the building of expectation/intention the night before. I was thinking that wouldnt this be similar to autosuggestion?



Though it is arguable, I don't think setting intention and autosuggestion are the same thing, and I'm sure that autosuggestion has nothing to do with expectation. 

I see setting intention as more of a mental gearshift than the precise instruction to my unconscious that would be autosuggestion. On paper the difference seems like semantics, but in practice, I think setting intention -- simply putting your mind in the right place before a dream, perhaps by assuring yourself that you will lucid dream tonight, or that you will meet your dream guide -- is far different than specifically hypnotizing yourself to respond to certain stimuli in the dream (which is a fine thing to do, BTW; don't get me wrong!). 

For instance, though setting an intention to, say, "go to DEILD just before waking," might work for you (and then would be much like autosuggestion), I haven't seen much success for setting intention so precisely, especially when you consider it must work after a _full night_ of dreams (and several other, earlier, wake-up moments when a DEILD attempt is not as good an idea).  I suppose that, since I don't practice autosuggestion (I'm useless at such things), I could have it all wrong and autosuggestion can be the same as setting intention.    

Expectation, though I usually list with intention, is a much more global affair, and really doesn't equate to autosuggestion at all.





> Im still just slightly confused as to how it all comes together, and what the practice would consist of when working towards noticing the near-waking state.



For what it's worth, when you finally do have your successful DEILD -- and you will -- I think you will find yourself mildly surprised at how simple it turned out to be.  For now, just keep trying it, preferably beginning at the end of an LD and avoiding fully waking up at all, and in time you will see it all come together -- all with minimal intellectual or technical input from you.

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## LouaiB

Hello Sageous.

I got a handle of every thing in your lessons, I think, but there are these last 2 questions that haunt me:

1- When I RRC, I like to wonder about my existence, like you said, but also in a way that I am temporary in this world, and I have a start and eventually an end. Pretty much considering that I will die someday. This seems to give me a transcendence moment and increase the wonder drastically, but is it actually good? Or can it backfire in some way?

2-I know I shouldn't practice MILD visualizations while RRCing, because it may hinder the process of self-awareness, but is it better if I stop the whole process of the MILD visualization? Since I will become always(well, to an extent) self-aware in waking life, then practicing MILD visualization will surely meet my self-awareness and effect it? The question is, will it effect it negatively?

Thank you in advance for any help you may give, and I wish you a happy new year^^!!!

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## FryingMan

> ...
> For what it's worth, when you finally do have your successful DEILD -- and you will -- I think you will find yourself mildly surprised at how simple it turned out to be.  For now, just keep trying it, preferably beginning at the end of an LD and avoiding fully waking up at all, and in time you will see it all come together -- *all with minimal intellectual or technical input from you.*



As always, Sageous hits it right on the mark!

Just woke from my first DEILD!:

First day of 2014, first DEILD! - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

and the cool thing was that it was not a waking from a LD, just a ND!   Same as my previous dream re-entry: lying quietly, lightly considering the dreams I woke from, happy I had any recall at all, decided to try DEILD, and just drifted off with the notion of the dreams still in my head (not trying to vigorously replay or recall)....and the next thing I knew, I'm in the dream (the rest is in the DJ).  I was probably about 1/2 lucid right at the start, curious about this starting image/scene and where it came from, and got the full lucid rush once I stepped into the dream.

The key really is "minimal input" -- as Sageous wrote, stay quiet, stay asleep, think *lightly* of the dream, and drift off...

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## Sageous

> 1- When I RRC, I like to wonder about my existence, like you said, but also in a way that I am temporary in this world, and I have a start and eventually an end. Pretty much considering that I will die someday. This seems to give me a transcendence moment and increase the wonder drastically, but is it actually good? Or can it backfire in some way?



Though reverie of this type is a good thing in general, and we would live in a different world if that transcendental moment you mention were to be had by everyone now and then, I don't think this is helpful to LD'ing; and it can indeed backfire in a big way.

Why?  Because the point of an RRC, as I see it, is to note, to encounter, your interaction with your _local_ reality, with local being the operative word here.  What you're looking to do is develop a sense that you're directly involved with your reality, and that you have a real hand in its events.  You're looking to do this so that, come dreamtime, you'll not only have that feeling of involvement, but you'll also k_now_ that, because the entire local reality in a dream is your own, your interaction with that reality is actually an interaction with yourself.  With that kind of mindset, lucidity, in a sense, can't be avoided.  

However, if you are in a dream and start thinking about your ephemeral existence in this world, your insignificance in the Grand Scheme of Things, you might go in the opposite direction and apply too much credence to your dream world, making it more "real," and more imposing, than it was before.  Doing so is effectively limiting your self-awareness and your importance to your dream world, and thus reducing your chances of understanding where your really are, and lucidity.





> 2-I know I shouldn't practice MILD visualizations while RRCing, because it may hinder the process of self-awareness, but is it better if I stop the whole process of the MILD visualization? Since I will become always(well, to an extent) self-aware in waking life, then practicing MILD visualization will surely meet my self-awareness and effect it? The question is, will it effect it negatively?



Yes, doing MILD visualizations during RRC's is not a good idea, but there is no need to stop doing those  visualizations in general, as they are very helpful to LD'ing in general, especially in the memory and expectations department.  

So, your MILD work (when done separately from RRC's) will indeed meet and effect your self-awareness work, but it will do so in a complementary fashion, definitely not negatively. In effect what you'll be doing is nurturing all three legs of the LD'ing fundamentals stool (Self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intention) by keeping up both practices... not so negative at all, I think!

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## Eamo24

Hi Sageous,

I’ve had a few WILD attempts recently, and I think I might be getting closer to achieving it. I’ve found it very helpful to wait until I experience some HI to hold on to, and then use it as a guide towards the dream.

I would try to stay relaxed and watch the HI turn into some sort of miniature dream or ‘narrative’. I approach it as if I’m interested in seeing what my subconscious can produce. On many occasions, I’ve gotten to the stage where I felt like I was actually watching a dream take place with dialogue, and imagery that was extremely detailed and examinable. I still, though, felt ‘awake’ and in reality and didn’t feel like I was actually participating in the dream, but merely watching it. Usually at this point, it gets very difficult to maintain awareness, and even consciousness.

So do you think I was close to WILDing on these occasions? Would this be a good way to go about a WILD attempt? It’s just I’ve done this a few times and can usually get very far when holding onto HI, but have yet to actually ‘enter’ the dream.

Thanks.

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## Sageous

^^ You likely were close to completing a WILD, Eamo24, but you might find it difficult finishing your dive while paying such attention to HI.

By elevating the importance of HI, or possibly dreamlets, without a focus on the upcoming dream itself, you are reducing the importance of that actual dream.  Plus, by remaining a distant spectator, you are reducing the importance of your own presence in the transition of wake to sleep.  Given that, I imagine that self-awareness would be difficult to maintain!

Instead of just watching the imagery form itself, why not use the imagery to help you form your actual dream?  As you begin to see it happen, try to incorporate it into your upcoming dream plans.  If you can't do this, at least try to stay focused on your WILD dive, perhaps by continuing to recite your mantra.

Bottom line: though what you describe sounds like a fascinating experience, I'm not sure it represents a good route to completing a WILD.  Let me know if you prove me wrong!  :wink2:

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## Eddydpyl

Hi Sageous! Just a quick question about a matter that keeps bothering me: I've been practicing WILD for some time now but I can't seem to be able to get into the dream easily enough. For example, I'm in my bedroom taking a nap, I get to the point I hallucinate vividly (normally seeing the place with my eyes shut) and... I wake up. I can't stop it from happening, as soon as the thing gets real enough I get like a "mini shock" and intermediately everything fades.

I think I once wrote here, in this topic, about this same thing and you answered that maybe I gave too much attention to the HI. Since then I treat it as nothing more than noise, as you suggest. I think my problem now might not be so much about getting to the point I'm dreaming, but actually getting the dream to absorb me (if that makes any sense). I would say the real trouble is the "mini shock" I just wrote about. Hope you help me get around this, regards.

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## Sageous

Hmm.

I think you might still have an attention problem, Eddydpyl, but this time it's a case of your unconscious or physical body paying attention to _you_! 

What could be happening is that, when you reach a point where the dream should start, and your body should be asleep, your brain registers that you are still aware and reacts to this by deciding that maybe the _rest_ of you ought to be awake as well.  So it dutifully triggers your brain's reticular system and voila!, you snap awake. In a sense, it's not that you're not getting to your dream -- or it's not finding you -- but rather that your brain is blocking your path to the dream by accidentally waking you up due to a simple misunderstanding. This is not an uncommon problem, BTW.

This might sound like an insurmountable obstacle, but there are a few things you could try to get past it:

* First, and best, is to simply keep making WILD attempts and get your body used to your conscious presence at a time when it is not supposed to be.  Eventually the rest of you will likely start working with you.  

* You could try remaining still after that snap, and attempting to go back to sleep; sort of reacting to the snap with a bit of a DEILD. 

* You can try working on forming the dream itself, perhaps from the HI that you are experiencing; maybe if there is more of a dream present before the snap, your brain will assume you're actually sleeping (also, the reticular wake-up will be a little easier to ignore if there's a show going on).  

* Last, but definitely not least: don't think about the snap before it happens or when it happens (i.e., don't start listening for it when you're experiencing HI), as that will only make it worse.

I guess the *tl;dr* version of this is the standard: keep at it, stay calm, and give yourself time to work through this.  If you're as far as you are, then this is just another step on the way.

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## Eddydpyl

Thanks for the reply. I do practice much of what you suggested but for the "forming the dream" part, which I have always avoided as I find it pretty difficult to get past the point of simply imagining stuff and starting to hallucinate (HI). Its normally easier for me to leave my brain do the scene creating work (though I do, when succeeded, start the dream in a dull place such as my bedroom). 

Now that I think about it, it is pretty clear to me that the problem is about attention: When I start to vividly hallucinate I'm in a state of passive awareness which rapidly collapses as soon as I realize I'm progressing. My attention drifts rapidly to the scene and I try to pay attention to the details of it, all of this involuntarily of course. Not sure if this piece of info helps localize my problem, if it needs to.

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## Sageous

^^  Oh!  Well then we're back to my original advice: _stop paying attention to the noise_!

Though it seems involuntary, this attention you are paying to details is something you can control, simply by keeping your mind on the dream, or on your dream goals.  This might be difficult for you (it sure is for me!), but it is worth the effort -- and repeated failed WILD attempts inherent in the task -- to learn to keep your mind on your dream and its goals, rather than let it wander on its own. Letting go of your goals will lead to things like FA's waking up, just plain NLD's, and general missed lucidity.  Also, holding onto your goals might sidestep, or at least minimize, that time in dull places like your room.  

Here's another thought about HI, which I think, but can't remember, is in the forming your dreams session of my WILD class:  If your HI imagery starts to get fairly complex, or begins to occupy all your senses, you might be able to use it to construct a dream.  In other words, if you can't get past the the imagery of HI, then stay with it, and let that imagery become your dream.  You _must_ do this with your dream or dream goals in mind, though, or else the HI will not form into anything, and you'll likely just wake up or eventually lose self-awareness and dream non-lucidly. ...Wait... did I just suggest that you pay attention to HI? Heresy perhaps, but sometimes you gotta break some rules to move ahead.

I guess the bottom line here is that, whether you're responding unconsciously to it or not, reacting to the noise seems to be what's holding you up.  As you get better at ignoring it (or working with it, as it were), you should find that your unconscious will get better at ignoring it right along with you.  And you get better at it by focusing not on what your unconscious wants you to focus on (the details during HI or early dream), but on what _you_ want to focus on: the dream itself.

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## Eddydpyl

Ok, I think I've got it. Thanks for your time!  :smiley:

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## Shabby

How do ADA and your Self-Awareness exercise stack up? I have been practicing them simultaneously, but I was wondering:
Does the all-day awareness of your body and your surroundings help - or disturb/hinder the self-awareness exercise? I really want to learn WILD but I've noticed significant progress with ADA so I don't want to give that up.

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## Sageous

ADA and self-awareness are two very different things.  Because of this, they can certainly be practiced simultaneously, or at least in rapid succession.

I personally do not see much sense in ramping up your natural awareness, which is what ADA does.  Constant registration of your surroundings with no regard for the presence of your Self in it all could lead to distraction, or perhaps a little bit too much respect for the reality of those surroundings (not helpful in a dream).  For instance, a mouse is a master at ADA, but I doubt it has many lucid dreams.  

_However_, if you can combine the attention involved in ADA with a strong sense of self, then ADA could prove a valuable tool... so if you're already heavily involved in an ADA regimen, I would suggest you keep it up, and even use it to complement your RRC's and any other self-awareness work.

This was a very brief response, but if you're interested in my more expanded (and hopefully not contradictory) opinion of ADA, you might want to check out a thread I started last year, ADA:Right or Wrong for Lucidity?; just try to ignore the petty squabble I got into with King Yoshi, the term's protective inventor!  Also, if you manage to read it through to its end, I think you will see that even Yoshi agrees that ADA will not bring about lucidity by itself, that some sense of Self must be included in the process.

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## Shabby

I see. Sorry for the late response.
I will use the focused mind that I apply through ADA to build self-awareness, focusing less on details around me and more on the me.
Therefore I have changed my signature to just 'awareness'. Thanks!

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## DreamHighlander

I have some questions about WILD.
I've been having a WILD every saturday morning. But my WILDs are different now. Before, when lying in bed, i began to feel my body heavier, then vibrating, hearing the buzz sound and images gradually began to appear (mostly a cartoon character). This whole experience lasted for 2-3 minutes. Then a whole scenary began to form in front of me (a house, a planet, space, a garden...) and i popped into that scenary.
A couple of months it has been different. When lying in bed, i don't hear the buzz sound, the vibrations last for just 5-10 seconds and right away i start to see my room as it is. But i know that i have my physical eyes closed, so, i'm in a dream. Slowly i begin to move my dream arms and legs and get out of my bed. My dream room is exactly as the real one, sometimes with some differences.

As you see it, before, my WILDs had a lasting "pre-dream" experience and then i entered in a new dream. Now, the "pre-dream" experience is very short and the dream begins always in my bed, in the position where i went to sleep.
Why is that happening? Is this another kind of WILD? Is this what people call OBE?

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## Sageous

^^ I think what may be happening is that your WILD skills are maturing and are outpacing your established WILD habit.  You may have originally needed (or rather _felt_ a need) to use the noise as a step toward your dream.  Now, as you've grown more experienced, you step right past the noise and into the dream.  

That's a good thing, of course, but there might be a small problem:  It seems you were using HI images (that scenery into which you were popping) to step into your dream.  Now you're bypassing that scenery -- which, believe it or not, I think is a good thing -- and you have no imagery on hand for the beginning of your dream. "Waking" up in your own room is the most readily available image your dreaming mind could grab, and it is an image that tends to appear when your dreaming mind was not prepared with a new dream.  This is a fairly common occurrence in late-cycle WILDs), and I believe is often confused with OBE's.  It's also fairly easy to get through. Since you're definitely dreaming at this point (in your "room"), you have a couple of options:  

First, I suggest you just get up and leave the room: walk through a door with a solid idea of where you want to be once you leave your room.  The process of moving through the dream and remembering places you'd like to go or see ought to be enough to fuel your dreaming mind into action, and you'll quickly be in your dream.

You could also just close your dream eyes and imagine being somewhere else, being careful to keep your eyes closed for a few seconds so your dreaming mind has time to do its conjuring.

Or, you could sidestep the bedroom problem altogether by doing a better job forming your dream before and during your WILD dive.  With your mind in the right place from the get-go, especially from an expectations/intentions standpoint, you will likely not even have a "bedroom" problem!  

Oh, and one more note of confidence:  I have a feeling that, once you solve this room problem, you will likely find your LD's to be richer, perhaps longer, and more open to your input. This has nothing to do with solving the problem, but with the fact that the problem exists, thanks to your developing self-awareness and LD'ing skills; not a bad deal, I think!

*tl;dr:* The bedroom problem may have arisen because you had grown dependent on using the noise, rather than on your own conscious input, to get to your dream.  Now that your self-awareness has grown stronger and the need for clinging to the noise has faded, you might need to "grow" your overall approach to the WILD task, so that your entry process is caught up with your advancing skills.

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## Eamo24

Hi Sageous,

I just had some questions about mantras:

I know you said that ignoring the noise and keeping your mind on the dream will make the transition easier, however, I usually try to use a mantra to maintain consciousness, and I’m not sure where to put my focus. If I try to concentrate on the mantra, it feels like I’m not focusing on the dream goal. Sometimes I try to concentrate on both at the same time, but it just makes things very muddled. Is there anything you would recommend?

Also, if you’re using a mantra, how do you know when to end the mantra, or know when it’s time to enter the dream? Thanks.

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## Sageous

^^ Why not have your mantra relate directly to your dream goal?  For instance, if your goal is to fly to the moon, your mantra could be "Fly me to the moon."  That way you don't have to concern yourself with splitting your attention, and you might find the mantra easier to maintain.

I suggest that you do not give much thought to when to stop the mantra, because you _will_ leave it behind as soon as your dream starts without any consideration.  For similar reasons, there is no real need to concern yourself about when it's time to enter the dream, because when the dream forms you will already be in it, with no need to enter.  Thinking about things like when to end a mantra or when to enter the dream tend to be distractions, especially if you make them important during your dive.  Try to just _know_ that you'll stop your mantra when you're dreaming, and that you will have no problem recognizing the dream, once you're there.

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## DreamHighlander

Thanks, Sageous. You helped me a lot. I have some notes on your answer.

Since i started WILD i was not expecting noises, vibrations or HI imagery, because i had WILDs unintentionally. I was originally performing MILD in the morning and then those things happened. After browsing through the forum, then i knew it was WILD. The WILD i have been doing, i just lie on my bed expecting something. I don't look for noises, vibrations or images (but those are cool  :smiley:  ). Whatever happens, happens.





> First, I suggest you just get up and leave the room: walk through a door with a solid idea of where you want to be once you leave your room.



Yes. I've taken advantage of starting my dreams in my bedroom. I've explored my house, my building and, the thing i do most is jump out of my window and explore the outside world. It has been vividly beautiful and exciting. And always different.

For me it's not a problem starting my dream in my bedroom. I was just curious on why is that. And, to my excitement, i loved to know that, as you said, maybe because my WILD skills are maturing.
And i will take your suggestion on forming a dream to see if i can go back to pop into a different scenery right at the beginning.

Thanks.

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## Eamo24

Sageous,

I might be having some problems with implementing mantras. After a few minutes of using the mantra, the words become lost and it begins to turn into music and random noises. It’s as if the mantra takes on a mind of its own. I can maintain my awareness through it, but the words quickly become lost or transform altogether. Am I doing something wrong? Thanks.

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## Sageous

^^ It sounds to me like your mantra doesn't mean enough to you, Eamo.  Either that, or actually using the mantra doesn't mean enough to you.  The use of a mantra is meant to focus your attention, but it doesn't just do it because you're saying it; if you don't _know_ that repeating the mantra will hold your focus, it will quickly just become just another bit of noise.  

You seem to have a couple of options here:

First, reread my session on mantras, and then try to select a mantra that both holds some meaning for you and is simple to repeat (so it won't break down on you).  After you've chosen it, give the mantra some thought during the day: consider why you chose it, maybe repeat it in your head a few times, just to give your mind a cance to get used to it.  In short, make your mantra consciously important.

Next, you say you are maintaining awareness without the mantra.  [Now, normally I would argue that that might not be the case because if you were fully aware you would not have forgotten the mantra or found yourself unable to repeat it fully, but instead I'll assume that you are maintaining self-awareness (you're there, after all; you ought to know!).]  If you are holding onto your self-awareness straight through the falling asleep process -- and into your dream -- without using a mantra, then using a mantra might not be necessary for you.  Mantras are not required for WILD, they're just a handy tool for focusing attention.  If you can stay focused without a mantra, then don't use it! Using a mantra when it isn't needed would make it another distraction rather than an aid, and there are already enough of those!

*tl;dr:* Make your mantras more important or they won't work, but if you are able to WILD without a mantra, don't feel obliged to use one.

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## Eamo24

^^ This makes sense actually. I would usually only use a mantra if it’s earlier in the sleep cycle, as it’s more difficult to stay conscious, or maintain self-awareness. However, on my better attempts (usually in the later stage of sleep cycle), I would get close to WILDing without the need of a mantra. I would normally just watch or manipulate HI with full self-awareness.

I think trying to occupy your mind during the process is the main difficulty. I had a close WILD attempt the other night where I started to see my dream room. For a second or two it felt compellingly real, however, my thinking about it and focusing too much on what to do caused it to fade. On that attempt, though, it didn’t even occur to me to use a mantra….

So from this I mean, when you’re fully self-aware, and have the intention of entering a lucid dream in mind, it can be hard to know what to _do_ with your mind until you get there. If you don’t use a mantra, is there anything else you could actively do to stay ‘focused’ during the process, purely for something to use as a distraction from things like the need to try and ‘control’ the process? Thanks.

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## Sageous

> ...So from this I mean, when youre fully self-aware, and have the intention of entering a lucid dream in mind, it can be hard to know what to _do_ with your mind until you get there. If you dont use a mantra, is there anything else you could actively do to stay focused during the process, purely for something to use as a distraction from things like the need to try and control the process? Thanks.



First, if you are fully self-aware during a WILD dive, you can be as distracted, bored, listless, or even excited about the process as you'd like, because, since you are _fully_ self-aware, you _will_ be lucid... that is the power of self-awareness.

That said, and assuming that self-awareness is rarely fully achieved for any amount of time, there are some other non-mantra things you can do to stay occupied; here are a few that I use:

* Think about your dream goals.  This has always worked best for me.  If you are good at visualizing, those "must stay focused" moments are a fine time to do some.  Imagine your upcoming dream, think about where you will be, what you will be doing.  There is a chance that you might get carried away and lapse into a daydream, but that's okay, because the daydream will likely form the foundation for your actual dream, so you will have set up your dream (and even if that daydream causes you to lose self-awareness, the familiarity of a dream that directly represents your goals will likely restore it).  This is what I do most often, by the way.

* Practice "process avoidance" during waking life.  Whenever you find yourself thinking about all the stuff they talk about in these forums, just make a conscious effort to change the subject in your head. If you can learn to automatically shove away useless thoughts in waking life, you ought to find yourself doing the same during a WILD dive.

* Create a pleasant metaphor for those distracting thoughts.  For instance, imagine extra thoughts, misgivings, urges to control the process, etc, are just so much water flowing past you as you relax.  Sure, they are there, but they are just passing by, and you regard them as much as you would regard an individual drop of water in a flowing river. 

* Do something physical.  The meditation crowd has found great success in using breath to maintain focus.  You could simply listen to your breath as it flows in and out (don't try to change its natural rhythm), letting its sound (and the effort to keep hearing it) fill your mind and push out distraction.

You can also do all these things simultaneously -- on my particularly distracting dives, I find myself visualizing the dream with a stream of thoughts flowing by (sometimes that stream is a roaring torrent in my case!), all while listening to my breath... and yes, there is a mantra being repeated as well.  And trust me, if you develop a knack for juggling all these mental balls and still relaxing enough to get back to sleep, distractions like excitement about the process or the noise will become distant, frustrated gnats!

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## Sivason

> First, if you are fully self-aware during a WILD dive, you can be as distracted, bored, listless, or even excited about the process as you'd like, because, since you are _fully_ self-aware, you _will_ be lucid... that is the power of self-awareness.
> 
> That said, and assuming that self-awareness is rarely fully achieved for any amount of time, there are some other non-mantra things you can do to stay occupied; here are a few that I use:
> 
> * Think about your dream goals.  This has always worked best for me.  If you are good at visualizing, those "must stay focused" moments are a fine time to do some.  Imagine your upcoming dream, think about where you will be, what you will be doing.  There is a chance that you might get carried away and lapse into a daydream, but that's okay, because the daydream will likely form the foundation for your actual dream, so you will have set up your dream (and even if that daydream causes you to lose self-awareness, the familiarity of a dream that directly represents your goals will likely restore it).  This is what I do most often, by the way.
> 
> * Practice "process avoidance" during waking life.  Whenever you find yourself thinking about all the stuff they talk about in these forums, just make a conscious effort to change the subject in your head. If you can learn to automatically shove away useless thoughts in waking life, you ought to find yourself doing the same during a WILD dive.
> 
> * Create a pleasant metaphor for those distracting thoughts.  For instance, imagine extra thoughts, misgivings, urges to control the process, etc, are just so much water flowing past you as you relax.  Sure, they are there, but they are just passing by, and you regard them as much as you would regard an individual drop of water in a flowing river. 
> ...



What an amazing amount of time you put into teaching here. I wish I was half as helpful lately. This entire post is golden; it is clear and every word is well used. Thank you.

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## Sageous

^^ Thanks Sivason; I do appreciate that!

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## Eamo24

Sageous,

I’m just wondering about something:

When maintaining self-awareness through a WILD attempt, sometimes tiredness is a major hindrance. For example, earlier in the night it’s very difficult to maintain self-awareness, however, in the late morning (after about 7 hours sleep) tiredness isn’t a major issue, so it's a lot easier, but the WILD attempt usually takes a lot longer. So I was wondering:

Would it be right to say that if you’re very tired, you will fall asleep much faster, but it will be a lot more difficult to maintain self-awareness, and the less tired you are, the longer it will take to fall asleep, but is much easier to hold self-awareness?

I’m not sure if this is a sleep related question or anything, but I’ve often found this to be the case. Thanks.

----------


## Sageous

^^ Yes, you are right, Eamo, and yes, this is indeed a sleep related question.

If your body is extremely tired, and poised irreversibly toward falling asleep, then it would be quite difficult to maintain self-awareness through the process; the physiology is almost always too powerful. Notice I said "almost always" there, because it may be difficult to maintain self-awareness when very tired, but it is not impossible (i.e., mastering the art of doing just this is a goal of sleep yoga). Still, it may be better to DILD if you're very tired, and sure that you wouldn't be able to hold it together during a WILD attempt -- and, also because of long NREM periods early in the sleep cycle, it is usually better to hold off WILD attempts until later on.

And yes, it is an annoying irony of WILD that the most effective time to try it is when your body is least interested in going back to sleep (causing those long waits during late-morning WILD dives), but that is indeed the best time to attempt a WILD, not only because REM periods are close together, but also, I think, because it is much easier to maintain self-awareness when your body is more awake.  

So I guess you answered your own question, but you do raise an interesting and often overlooked point: physiology -- in this case the need for sleep, or tiredness -- is a major player in WILD attempts, and ought to be integrated into your plans, or at least respected.  In other words, if you are too tired to attempt a WILD, then don't bother.

----------


## Sageous

Lucidmatz asked me a question through s PM today that I thought worth sharing here.  So, with his permission of course, here it is:





> _Originally PM'ed by lucidmats:_
> ... I have another question now regarding your self-awareness training : You say "know that everything around me has an effect on me and the other way around" I think i kinda know what to do and it certainly feels right, i guess. Just to clarify, do you mean by effect, that when i sit on the couch i´ll make it sink in and the couch will keep me away from the ground (just an example) ?
> Hope i´m doing the right thing




Did I really say to_ know_ that you are interacting with your local reality, or did I say to _wonder_ about it? I guess I might have said "know" once or twice; I get that way. I also guess it wouldn't hurt to assume you must know the interaction, because that might help you wonder more!

Regardless:  Yes, I do mean in effect that when you sit on the couch you acknowledge the dent you made, that you are squeezing some foam and springs, and that, yes, the couch is suspending you above the ground, as is the floor below it.  Also:

*You can wonder that a moment ago the couch was just so much material occupying space in front of you, but now, with your sitting upon it, it has a true purpose and is serving it.

*You can notice how the couch has changed your perspective on the room; perhaps it has even changed your personal attitude; especially if you were tired and really needed to sit down.

*You can wonder if anyone noticed you plopping down on the couch, and how they might feel about your recent surrender to standing.

*You can look around the room, and see what sitting on the couch means: does it mean impending rest? Conversation? Reading? TV? Video games?

*You can also wonder about how your sitting is wearing the couch out a bit, and that tiny bits of you are rubbing off onto the couch (eew).

See? Even just sitting on a couch can be swarming with things to wonder about (or know). But clearly you already get the idea!

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## FryingMan

^^ My RRCs have tended to be more about wondering at "here I am, I realize I'm here, a sentient being" and examining memories of recent interactions or actions and their effects, I guess I should work in more local object interaction thoughts.

p.s. it's nice to see a concrete example, it really helps.

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## Ctharlhie

I know this thread has already had a mention here, but it may be worth a bump in relation to Sageous example of an RRC: http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...rspective.html

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## LouaiB

> ^^ My RRCs have tended to be more about wondering at "here I am, I realize I'm here, a sentient being" and examining memories of recent interactions or actions and their effects, I guess I should work in more local object interaction thoughts.
> 
> p.s. it's nice to see a concrete example, it really helps.



Lol I am doing the same thing too!

Sageous, can this expand to more features, like how my neighbor's music is entertaining/annoying me now? How things around me make me feel and change my mood? Also like what I just did and how it benefited me and effected others/environment?

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## SammyTheSnake

I'd just like to share that I had a (brief) LD the other night that I can confidently ascribe to techniques I've been using inspired by this tutorial.

I've been using a phone app called Prospector that picks four random triggers each day (from an editable list) which you can use to trigger RCs / RRCs and practice prospective memory by trying to spot those triggers. I've been seeding my list of triggers with dreamsigns, and increasingly spotting those dreamsigns even when they're not on today's list. One of my dreamsigns is that outdoors locations are usually very brightly lit, with an early in the morning in the summer type feel.

This is the DJ entry, but the key moment was when I noticed it was very sunny and thought to do an RC/RRC type thing (I just thought about my context and the events immediately preceding) and became lucid when I spotted several dream signs!

I'm really pleased that I can actually (for the first time in a couple of months of practicing) see a clear link between the disciplines I've been working on, and my actual LD life!  ::-P: 

SammyTheSnake

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## Quilly

> Lucidmatz asked me a question through s PM today that I thought worth sharing here.  So, with his permission of course, here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did I really say to_ know_ that you are interacting with your local reality, or did I say to _wonder_ about it? I guess I might have said "know" once or twice; I get that way. I also guess it wouldn't hurt to assume you must know the interaction, because that might help you wonder more!
> 
> Regardless:  Yes, I do mean in effect that when you sit on the couch you acknowledge the dent you made, that you are squeezing some foam and springs, and that, yes, the couch is suspending you above the ground, as is the floor below it.  Also:
> 
> ...



This. I'm finding it really difficult to get into this mindset, and it's putting me off even trying to do RCCs. :/

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## Sageous

^^ Well, then don't do RRC's!  :wink2: 

Seriously, if you find yourself unable to do RRC's properly, or perhaps just not interested in them, you do not need to do them and still be able to LD.  There are other ways to build self-awareness, and other ways to prepare yourself for making sense of the dream when you are in it, and certainly other ways to successfully WILD.  This is just a method I've found that works well, and also helps with other things, like focus and imagination, which are important in LD'ing.  

So if it's too difficult, just move on.  If it is _just_ difficult, and you want to be able to do RRC's, then I suggest that you keep trying them, even if they feel useless or like you're not doing them correctly at first.  You might get the hang of them eventually, and the process of attempting them might still help.

If I misunderstood you, and you had something specific that you did not get, let me know.

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## Quilly

> ^^ Well, then don't do RRC's! 
> 
> Seriously, if you find yourself unable to do RRC's properly, or perhaps just not interested in them, you do not need to do them and still be able to LD.  There are other ways to build self-awareness, and other ways to prepare yourself for making sense of the dream when you are in it, and certainly other ways to successfully WILD.  This is just a method I've found that works well, and also helps with other things, like focus and imagination, which are important in LD'ing.  
> 
> So if it's too difficult, just move on.  If it is _just_ difficult, and you want to be able to do RRC's, then I suggest that you keep trying them, even if they feel useless or like you're not doing them correctly at first.  You might get the hang of them eventually, and the process of attempting them might still help.
> 
> If I misunderstood you, and you had something specific that you did not get, let me know.



I DO want to be able to do them, I'm just struggling to come up with good questions like the ones regarding the couch. I suppose I'll just keep at it.

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## Sageous

^^ That's good, because if you really want to be able to do them, then the effort to get there only mnakes successful RRC's more rewarding.

Here's a thought, though:  don't worry about the significance of the questions.  They don't have to be good, or even terribly relevant. They just have to help you wonder about your place, and your interaction with, your local reality.  But yes, if you keep at it with some experience you will gain comfort in the moment, find the questions easier to form, and the wondering easier to do.

Good luck, and let us know here if you're still having trouble after spending more time attempting RRC's as best you can.

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## Eamo24

Sageous,

I’ve had a few WILD attempts recently, but not without some difficulty…

My main difficulty at the moment (I think) is being able to use the right amount of awareness when navigating the difficult path to the LD -- a path which could certainly do with a little de-cluttering!  :wink2: 

I find that if I try to focus on the WILD, I can’t fall asleep easily, even though I may still be very tired after the WBTB. The attempts usually start off ok, and I think: “great, I’ve got a steady mantra, I’m focused etc. and can fall back to sleep”, so I try to just wait until sleep sets in. But during the wait, I feel like I’m concentrating quite well but getting nowhere*, only to completely lose consciousness about 15 minutes later. I also get the feeling a lot of people talk about, where they feel like giving up on the WILD and going to sleep normally. But you must go to sleep in order to WILD; It’s a bit of a tricky situation!  ::lol:: 

I’m not sure why this keeps happening but maybe I’m being _too_ aware, and it’s too tiring to maintain so I just black out later and forget the whole thing. I try not to pay too much attention to things like HI, but I do observe it now and then, and sometimes I talk myself through the process or make some mental notes about what’s happening.

*Sometimes if I find that I’m not falling asleep or nothing’s happening, I try to just ‘go to sleep’ as I would normally but then try to pick up a little bit of awareness again in few seconds. I’m not really sure how to use a small amount of awareness but still be aware enough to be conscious of the process. Hope this doesn’t sound like a repetitive question but would you happen to have any advice on what to do?

Thanks.  :smiley:

----------


## Sageous

> Ive had a few WILD attempts recently, but not without some difficulty
> 
> My main difficulty at the moment (I think) is being able to use the right amount of awareness when navigating the difficult path to the LD -- a path which could certainly do with a little de-cluttering!



 I hear you, but keep in mind that there is no "right amount" of self-awareness in this formula -- only as much self-awareness as you can muster.  That said:





> I find that if I try to focus on the WILD, I cant fall asleep easily, even though I may still be very tired after the WBTB. The attempts usually start off ok, and I think: great, Ive got a steady mantra, Im focused etc. and can fall back to sleep, so I try to just wait until sleep sets in. But during the wait, I feel like Im concentrating quite well but getting nowhere, only to completely lose consciousness about 15 minutes later. I also get the feeling a lot of people talk about, where they feel like giving up on the WILD and going to sleep normally. But you must go to sleep in order to WILD; Its a bit of a tricky situation!



It is a tricky situation indeed, but one with a fairly easy solution: wait out your body.  

When you lie down to WILD, you should allot yourself about two hours of "effort time."  Odds are excellent that you will likely fall asleep in less than an hour, but if you make it to two without falling asleep then odds are you'll never fall asleep that day.  So give it the full two hours, no matter how bored you are or how sure you are that you won't fall asleep after any amount of time less than that two hours.  I think that about 90% of WILD's fail simply because people give up too soon.  Regarding your body's _interest_ in falling asleep:





> Im not sure why this keeps happening but maybe Im being _too_ aware, and its too tiring to maintain so I just black out later and forget the whole thing. I try not to pay too much attention to things like HI, but I do observe it now and then, and sometimes I talk myself through the process or make some mental notes about whats happening.



  I personally do not think that you can be "too aware," but your conscious input _can_ have an influence on how long it takes you to fall asleep.  This input, however, tends to go straight to your reticular system (aka: you desire to be awake, so your body obliges and keeps you, _all of you_, awake).   Also, if you spend too much time rationalizing the HI and other events you stumble across during a WILD, you will likely turn your mind away from the nature of the event, and cause your body to become less interested in simply falling asleep -- as was its original plan.  

So yeah, awareness is involved in keeping you awake, but it isn't really a case of being too aware as it is a case of letting your awareness wander.  When you are attempting a WILD, try to hold onto your mantra and your dream goals, and don't let thoughts of things like "am I asleep yet?" or the HI to eclipse your mindset as you WILD.

So muster all the self-awareness you can -- just be sure to meter that self-awareness in a manner that keeps you self-aware, and not one that allows you to fall prey to the distractions inherent in WILD -- the greatest of those being the urge to roll over and go to sleep.

*tldr:* When you get tired of doing your WILD attempt, and are sure you cannot fall asleep (or can't help _just_ falling asleep), just give it a few more minutes.  And when that few minutes passes, give it a few more, until at least two hours have elapsed.

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## 420Lucidity

Hello sageous,
Ive gotten my technique and such down i just have a question on rem cycles, if i take a nap say 6pm or so and wake up and do my wbtb am i sure to have a wild (if i succeed in the transition of course. Im mainly wanting to know more about the rem cycles, when will it take ten mins to enter a dream and when are the dreams sure to not happen and you find yourself looking into blackness for half an hour

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## Sageous

*420Lucidity:*





> Ive gotten my technique and such down i just have a question on rem cycles, if i take a nap say 6pm or so and wake up and do my wbtb am i sure to have a wild (if i succeed in the transition of course. Im mainly wanting to know more about the rem cycles, when will it take ten mins to enter a dream and when are the dreams sure to not happen and you find yourself looking into blackness for half an hour



^^ 6 _pm_?

If you are taking a nap in the middle of the day, then you really are not entering a sleep cycle at all, and therefore have no real opportunity to catch a standard REM period or, for that matter, no real chance of getting stuck in a NREM period (that blackness).  Did I misunderstand you?  

A nap at such a late time of day followed by a WBTB and WILD attempt can lead to a LD, simply because such off-hour naps are removed enough from your nightly sleep are often accompanied by REM from start to finish, you will likely not experience any blackness at all.   But keep in mind that, since there is no sleep cycle to sidestep, there is no need to do WBTB... just do your WILD at naptime.

So I guess I'm missing your question altogether.  If it was about REM periods after late afternoon naps, then I have no answer, because there really is no sleep cycle at that point, and therefore no REM period.  If it was about whether REM periods matter during off-sleep cycle naps, then I would say no, they don't.  

Not sure if any of that made sense.  Ask again if it didn't, but try to be more specific!

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## 420Lucidity

Thanks for the response i undrstand i asked the question with lack of detail but i researched more on EM cycles and found what i needed. 

I have a situation that leads to a question.
So funny as it is after almost a year of trying wild, i achieved my first one yesterday morning. Now, all i remember from it is a 4 second period of me flying. Then i woke up did a wbtb went back to sleep and had another dream only this one i consciouly fell asleep for but i was able to attain lucidity in the middle of a dream. I was looking at a woman, an ugly woman, thats where i achieved lucidity and as cliche as it was i made an attempt to transform the ugly woman DC into a hot sexy babe. So she started morphing and sh turned into Monica from the sitcom friends (No clue why this would happen i mean shes okay ya know). Anyways the dream cut out after she transformed. So i had two ld's in one night but only remembered 4 second clips.

So here's my question, living in Colorado, im a daily pot smoker and i need to know if as long as i smoke, achieving full LDs will not happen.

But you hear about newbies having trouble with dream controlling and i was able to fly and transfom a DC no problem! Also the dream i had of me flying was very vivid and like an action movie (the 4 seconds i was able to remember of it)...

Hope this question is more detailed thanks for answering

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## Ctharlhie

Kingyoshi maintained that he was able to achieve regular recall and LDs while being a stoner. But generally speaking weed inhibits REM sleep. Your mileage may vary.

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## Sivason

It certainly messes up recall, which may be why you barely remember those LDs.

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## Ramin2097

man.by seeing how many sessions and their length I scared!
I read most of them and hell I'm confused...Seriously?!why the hell is having lucid dreams are just so hard?man I'm about to give up.
I'm not so much interested in DILD.I really don't like the whole RC thing.I don't believe in it.I know it works.but I don't like and don't believe it they way I should do for it to work.From all the methods I just like the WILD.but I need to develop self-awareness and that kind of things.which I don't have any idea how to!(yes I read your article,also and object oriented one,etc...)
I try to think the the pressure I have on the ground,the...whatever I think about just seems to stupid.
It really seems stupid and doesn't give me any feeling...
so...maybe I should just forget it.I'm too disappointed.

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## Ramin2097

BTW I know this may be irrelevant but I need to ask it.
1-is self-hypnosis helpful?are there some reliable guide or books about it?
2-everywhere I read meditation is very helpful and even crucial for LDing.but as a beginner I don't have any idea how should I do it.
I googled "meditation for beginners" but didn't get what exactly looking for.however I found something which can help but still....
3-also if you know any good book or guide again for programming subconscious and mastering it tell me please.
sorry.I know I'm more asking about resources than asking something relevant to the subject.but I'm just new to all this stuff(subconscious mind,LD,delf hypnosis etc)and don't know where to start mastering these things.I believe mastering these is the way to master the whole life...
Thanks and sorry!

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## Sageous

> man.by seeing how many sessions and their length I scared!
> I read most of them and hell I'm confused...Seriously?!why the hell is having lucid dreams are just so hard?man I'm about to give up.
> I'm not so much interested in DILD.I really don't like the whole RC thing.I don't believe in it.I know it works.but I don't like and don't believe it they way I should do for it to work.From all the methods I just like the WILD.but I need to develop self-awareness and that kind of things.which I don't have any idea how to!(yes I read your article,also and object oriented one,etc...)
> I try to think the the pressure I have on the ground,the...whatever I think about just seems to stupid.
> It really seems stupid and doesn't give me any feeling...
> so...maybe I should just forget it.I'm too disappointed.



Well, Ramin, maybe it _isn't_ time yet for you to do these things.  Successful lucid dreaming does require a solid, sometimes very substantial commitment of time, energy, and patience.  If you haven't any of those available right now, then maybe its time to look for some other pursuit.  This is because there really are no shortcuts; to enjoy LD'ing, you must put in time and effort.  That said:

I know my class has seven sessions, but taken one at a time I think they are fairly simple, I think -- and the homework isn't that difficult.  It was set up to do one session per week; you might want to try that out. If that is still too much, DV has a good introduction to WILD that is much shorter than mine; you might want to check it out if you haven't already. 

Regarding the other stuff: you might want to hunker down and really try to do RC's.  They're more important than you might think, and also a nice step toward working on your self-awareness.  Also, you didn't mention it at all, but you also might consider keeping a dream journal (a simple pad and pen near your bed works best).  And yes, these things take time and effort, but they are worth it.  

As long as I'm here:





> BTW I know this may be irrelevant but I need to ask it.
> 1-is self-hypnosis helpful?are there some reliable guide or books about it?
> 2-everywhere I read meditation is very helpful and even crucial for LDing.but as a beginner I don't have any idea how should I do it.
> I googled "meditation for beginners" but didn't get what exactly looking for.however I found something which can help but still....
> 3-also if you know any good book or guide again for programming subconscious and mastering it tell me please.
> sorry.I know I'm more asking about resources than asking something relevant to the subject.but I'm just new to all this stuff(subconscious mind,LD,delf hypnosis etc)and don't know where to start mastering these things.I believe mastering these is the way to master the whole life...
> Thanks and sorry!



1. Self hypnosis can be helpful, but really only works, I believe, as a supplement to MILD, and not on its own.  So you still have to do the other things anyway.  It also, of course, takes time and effort to learn self-hypnosis (those recordings you can buy are only the first step).  So yes, self-hypnosis can work, but not alone and it is not a shortcut; Sorry!

2. Meditation is important, and for that matter WILD, if looked at sideways, is little more than just the result of meditation.  Meditation comes in many forms, with many levels of difficulty, and many different applications.  In my mind there is no single "meditation for beginners" that would fit all applications, including LD'ing.  That said: 

In a nutshell, I believe that mediation is ultimately an act of clearing of your mind and opening it in the process to new input, flexibility, and introspection. If you can simply sit down and quietly clear your mind for a period of time, perhaps relaxing in the process, you have begun to meditate.    

Also: meditation is already built in to most decent WILD tutorials, including mine, though the word might not have been used. So if you learn to WILD, you very likely are also learning to meditate!

Oh, and yes, like everything else it takes time to learn to meditate properly...

3. I cannot offer a source for programming your unconscious because I do not believe there is one, nor will there be probably for a very long time (if ever).  The unconscious is an incredibly complex place, driven by a supercomputer (the brain) about which science has barely learned to understand the basics, much less reprogram it.  So, regardless of the claims you might read in some of those breathless device ads, nothing will reprogram your unconscious... Noting except, of course, _you_, through the long-term efforts you make doing day-work like RC's, RRC's dream-journaling, setting expectation/intentions, etc.

There is nothing wrong with asking for sources, Ramin, and carefully reading as much valid information as you can absorb (I recommend, for instance, that you read LaBerge's _Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming_, if you haven't already) as you learn to master these things.  But keep in mind that mastery of everything you listed requires an enormous amount of time, effort, and dedication -- and even then you might never master them.  But you know what?  You can LD just fine without _mastering_ any of those things, including LD'ing!  There are levels to everything, and sometimes you can get a lot out of just taking the first few steps toward lucdity.

*tl;dr (both posts):*  Like it or not, Ramin, lucid dreaming requires some time and effort; there may be aids for your journey, are no shortcuts.  If you're not ready yet to do the work, it might be a good idea to set it all aside for some other time.

Best of luck to you, regardless!

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## Ramin2097

First of all I really appreciate your help.Thank you very much.
well yesterday I suddenly just felt bad and lost my hope but managed to calm and motivate myself
about the RC thing I'll give it a try.however don't know how to remember doing it.maybe I get myself a watch so it remembers me each hour.according to that I may forget doing it without something to remember is it better to have the watch and each hour (or 2 hour) do RCs or randomly whenever I remember it then do RC?
I guess I heard if every hour look at the watch and do RC then make it do that at night too while asleep by hearing the voice you become lucid if your dreaming.is it true?
1-No I don't want it just for LD.what records do you mean?
2-lol.didn't notice that.
3-well I agree I should do it and there isn't someone or something do it magically.what I'm looking for is how to do that.so what I need is a reliable source(book,site anything)which tell me how should I do it.
well of course they take time.but as you said it's worth it.
again Thank You very much!
and sorry for my English! ::D:

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## Sageous

> First of all I really appreciate your help.Thank you very much.
> well yesterday I suddenly just felt bad and lost my hope but managed to calm and motivate myself
> about the RC thing I'll give it a try.



That's good; successful LD'ing is far more a result of your state of mind than it is the result of any technique or lucid aid, I think. So keeping your confidence and expectations at as high a level as you can ought to be a priority.





> however don't know how to remember doing it.maybe I get myself a watch so it remembers me each hour.according to that I may forget doing it without something to remember is it better to have the watch and each hour (or 2 hour) do RCs or randomly whenever I remember it then do RC?
> I guess I heard if every hour look at the watch and do RC then make it do that at night too while asleep by hearing the voice you become lucid if your dreaming.is it true?



I've been doing RC's for decades now, and I _still_ don't know how to consistently remember to do them! My house is decorated (or littered) with little reminders placed everywhere I go -- when I see a reminder, I do a RC.  A watch with an alarm -- especially one whose alarm you can program to go off randomly -- is an excellent idea as well.   

I guess the really important thing to do with RC's is to acknowledge to yourself that remembering to do them will be a challenge, and then try to meet that challenge.  Assume that you will always remember to do RC's, and you will probably stop doing them at all very soon.





> 1-No I don't want it just for LD.what records do you mean?



 I honestly can't help with this.  The recordings I sampled have probably been out of circulation for years, but they were called "Ultra Meditation" if you want to search for them.  Regarding self-hypnosis aids, that sounds like a good request to make on a new thread -- there's got to be a few DV members who've tried this stuff recently, I think.





> 3-well I agree I should do it and there isn't someone or something do it magically.what I'm looking for is how to do that.so what I need is a reliable source(book,site anything)which tell me how should I do it.
> well of course they take time.but as you said it's worth it.



 Again, I suggest that you get a copy of LaBerge's _Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming_, as it really is a great summary of how to approach successful LD'ing....And of course you could always read through my own Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals thread!





> and sorry for my English!



Your English is just fine, very nice, in fact!

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## Ramin2097

First of all I want to say thank you a lot again!lol.for your guides,motivations and also confident about my English! ::D: 
So these days I'm trying to improve my awareness and these are things I do:
1-When I have the time I start to think the effects I had that day on my friends,family... and vice-versa.
Today I thought about that I asked my friend to come with me somewhere and because of that we made it late to the class.So teacher didn't let us in...(LOL.forgot the point)I thought how this act of me changed the time we were supposed to get home at normal times,the lunch time etc.Also thought about the effects he had on me.
2-I also try to get as much data I can from where I am.I mostly focus on sounds but also focus on the texture of my bag in my hand for example.the surface I'm walking on.The feel I have in my clothes and their weight etc.I try to get them all at the same time.
3-Where "I" am.
The first time I tried to do this I didn't have any idea.The second time I did it(don't remember I had the plan or came up naturally!)I wanted something so bad and it was making me do something crazy.I examined my self.Dammit!An hour
(the previous time I did it) I felt normally and this thing I want it so bad wasn't thinking about at all!when I calmed myself again thought about it.1st time-didn't have and idea what I'm supposed to do.2nd time-wanting something so bad driving me crazy.3rd time-Hell Yep.I managed to control myself and feel good.
Even the next time it occured to me to want that thing again thinking about the 3 last positions of me helped me prevent that feeling!
4-What was I doing?I try to reverse my day.I don't what was I doing 15 minutes age.Just think about the last thing I was on.
Now I'm typing this reply!Before this I was studying Physics!Before that watching TV etc
5-RC.Maybe I'm not doing it the way I should.Anyway I do a simple nose-plug(what was it exactly?! ::D: ) and except to be able to breath.
So...I guess that's it.When I do this things they don't even take more than 5 minutes.But what I wonder is that Am I doing it right?Am I feeling the way I should?Am I doing it with enough attention?etc
Also wonder if I'm doing it enough?I usually do a combination of them at them at the same time.
Once I did 1-3-4.once just 4.once all of the above!

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## Ramin2097

BTW two nights ago I tried SSILD.That night as it was mentioned that it may happen I couldn't sleep very well.I woke up naturally on 3 I guess.went to bathroom.then back to bed.tried it.Then I let it go and tried to sleep.I guess at last it was about 4:30 I managed to sleep!A riot started in my mind!every thought about every thing was attacking me!I moved a lot in my bed with an unfocused mind.It was out of my control.I had a very short dream between this 1:30 hour which I woke up between.
when I woke up on 5:30 I remembered my dreams without even trying to recall.

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## Sageous

Looks like you're off to a good start, Ramin.  Here are some thoughts:





> 1-When I have the time I start to think the effects I had that day on my friends,family... and vice-versa.
> Today I thought about that I asked my friend to come with me somewhere and because of that we made it late to the class.So teacher didn't let us in...(LOL.forgot the point)I thought how this act of me changed the time we were supposed to get home at normal times,the lunch time etc.Also thought about the effects he had on me.



  That's very good.





> 2-I also try to get as much data I can from where I am.I mostly focus on sounds but also focus on the texture of my bag in my hand for example.the surface I'm walking on.The feel I have in my clothes and their weight etc.I try to get them all at the same time.



 Be careful that you don't gather too much data with this step; don't get caught up in details; notice them, sure, but remember that an RRC is an exercise meant to heighten your own presence among these these things (and your local reality), and not to heighten the presence of objects around you. So collect some data, but as it relates to you... for instance, instead of feeling the texture of that bag, think about why you are holding it, about the stuff inside it, and so on.  Gathering data like that is not a bad idea, though, if, say, you include it in your RC. 





> 3-Where "I" am.
> The first time I tried to do this I didn't have any idea.The second time I did it(don't remember I had the plan or came up naturally!)I wanted something so bad and it was making me do something crazy.I examined my self.Dammit!An hour
> (the previous time I did it) I felt normally and this thing I want it so bad wasn't thinking about at all!when I calmed myself again thought about it.1st time-didn't have and idea what I'm supposed to do.2nd time-wanting something so bad driving me crazy.3rd time-Hell Yep.I managed to control myself and feel good. Even the next time it occured to me to want that thing again thinking about the 3 last positions of me helped me prevent that feeling!



  I'm not sure I understand your words here, but in case I do:  When you ask yourself where you are, you should leave it at that:  just see where you are, period; if you're standing on a stairway in your house, for instance, just acknowledge that and leave it there.  In questioning where you are right now you are more establishing your position -- a baseline for the rest of the RRC -- and there's no real need to add more to the wondering here.  Oh, and if you do not know where you are when you ask that question, then take a moment and make sure you're not actually dreaming!





> 4-What was I doing?I try to reverse my day.I don't what was I doing 15 minutes age.Just think about the last thing I was on.
> Now I'm typing this reply!Before this I was studying Physics!Before that watching TV etc



That's good.





> 5-RC.Maybe I'm not doing it the way I should.Anyway I do a simple nose-plug(what was it exactly?!) and except to be able to breath.



 That's fine too -- and a good time to RC.





> So...I guess that's it. When I do this things they don't even take more than 5 minutes.But what I wonder is that Am I doing it right?Am I feeling the way I should?Am I doing it with enough attention?etc Also wonder if I'm doing it enough?I usually do a combination of them at them at the same time. Once I did 1-3-4.once just 4.once all of the above!



  Five minutes seems a good time to spend on a RRC, though less is okay (much more than that, though, and you might be getting carried away).  If you are feeling like a person who is wondering about his interaction with his local reality, and it with him, then you are feeling the way you should.  Whether you are doing it with enough attention is up to you in the end (that is hard to tell from a report anyway).  I highly recommend that you find a way or the time to ask, answer, and wonder about all the questions in the same time frame.  Splitting them up tends to turn them into something else, and the value of the RRC may be lost... asking the three basic questions (where am I? Where was I? Where will I be?) establishes you in a specific position in your reality, a position from which you can comfortably wonder about your place in it; leave out one or two qustions, and suddenly that position loses definition, and your RRC loses its impact.

Nice work overall Ramin; keep it up!

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## Ramin2097

> Be careful that you don't gather too much data with this step; don't get caught up in details; notice them, sure, but remember that an RRC is an exercise meant to heighten your own presence among these these things (and your local reality), and not to heighten the presence of objects around you. So collect some data, but as it relates to you... for instance, instead of feeling the texture of that bag, think about why you are holding it, about the stuff inside it, and so on. Gathering data like that is not a bad idea, though, if, say, you include it in your RC.



OOPS!Thanks I was doing it wrong.




> I'm not sure I understand your words here, but in case I do: When you ask yourself where you are, you should leave it at that: just see where you are, period; if you're standing on a stairway in your house, for instance, just acknowledge that and leave it there. In questioning where you are right now you are more establishing your position -- a baseline for the rest of the RRC -- and there's no real need to add more to the wondering here. Oh, and if you do not know where you are when you ask that question, then take a moment and make sure you're not actually dreaming!



So you mean I should mind my physical location at this time?
I meant that I think about my mental and emotional position;If I'm happy now how was I feeling the last time?was I happy then too or sad?why was I sad?How do I feel about the thing I was sad of.Still important for me that affecting me or not...
If I'm relaxed now how was I feeling last time?If not relaxed then why...




> I highly recommend that you find a way or the time to ask, answer, and wonder about all the questions in the same time frame. Splitting them up tends to turn them into something else, and the value of the RRC may be lost... asking the three basic questions (where am I? Where was I? Where will I be?) establishes you in a specific position in your reality, a position from which you can comfortably wonder about your place in it; leave out one or two questions, and suddenly that position loses definition, and your RRC loses its impact.



So:
1-I ask myself where am I(mental,physical or both?) wonder and think about it.
2-Where was I.(if should mind mental position too then is it good to analyze the reasons?Why I was sad,is the reason still affecting me...)also what about physical location?Does it matter which time I think of?
3-Where will I be.Just wonder it...
4-Collect some data.What am I carrying,Why?
Why I'm walking?going somewhere or just bored and walking around?etc
5-Try to remember my day by reversing it.
What was my location before?If I'm in the bus now then before that I was waiting at the bus station?.
If now that I'm in bus don't have anything to do before this I was talking to my friend while waiting for the bus then separated..etc
6-My effects on others and vice-versa
7-RC.
The first three as you said are basics and shouldn't be separated.what about the others?
Thanks ::D:

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## Sageous

^^ I suggest, Ramin, that you read the first session of my WILD class, where the RRC is introduced. Hopefully you will see that it is a very simple exercise that only has you remembering where you were/what you were doing a few minutes ago, foreseeing where you will be/what you will be doing in a few minutes, noticing where you are/what you are doing right now, and honestly wondering about your interaction with your local reality throughout all that... and nothing more.  There is no need to explore your feelings, reverse the day, collect data, think about your mental condition, or anything else.  The RRC was meant to be a very simple device to remind you that you are always interacting with your local reality, and it with you, while simultaneously helping you to remember that you were somewhere else earleir, and will be somewhere else later.  It is really not going to work if you try to build so many things into it.

In other words: Ultimately, the RRC is meant to give you a moment of simple self-awareness and memory, one that you can repeat in a dream, and will help you to better establish in the dream that everything is You.  It is not meant to handle feelings, examine details, or other complicated things.  The only real thought you should put into one is just wondering about your interaction with reality, and it with you.

More specifically:





> So you mean I should mind my physical location at this time?



 If by "mind" you mean acknowledge its presence, and your presence in it, then yes.





> I meant that I think about my mental and emotional position;If I'm happy now how was I feeling the last time?was I happy then too or sad?why was I sad?How do I feel about the thing I was sad of.Still important for me that affecting me or not...
> If I'm relaxed now how was I feeling last time?If not relaxed then why...



 You do not need to do any of that.  This is not a time for exploring feelings, Ramin.  I'm not sure where you got that from; if it was from me, then I am sorry I confused you.





> 1-I ask myself where am I(mental,physical or both?) wonder and think about it.



 Just physical is fine, and keep it simple.





> 2-Where was I.(if should mind mental position too then is it good to analyze the reasons?Why I was sad,is the reason still affecting me...)also what about physical location?Does it matter which time I think of?



 Again, your mental position does not matter.  Just remember where you were and what you were doing.





> 3-Where will I be.Just wonder it...



 It's okay to know it -- most people have some idea where they will be in a few minutes -- when they are not dreaming.





> 4-Collect some data.What am I carrying,Why? Why I'm walking?going somewhere or just bored and walking around?etc



 Don't get too involved with data collecting, Ramin; if you start filling your head with extra information, you will lose the point of the RRC.  Also, there is no need to examine why you are walking somewhere, just notice that you are.





> 5-Try to remember my day by reversing it. 
> What was my location before?If I'm in the bus now then before that I was waiting at the bus station?.
> If now that I'm in bus don't have anything to do before this I was talking to my friend while waiting for the bus then separated..etc



 Just remember where you were a few minutes ago; there is no need to reverse anything.  Your bus example is a good one.





> 6-My effects on others and vice-versa



  Yes.





> 7-RC.



 Sure.





> The first three as you said are basics and shouldn't be separated.what about the others?
> Thanks



  The first three are all you have to do, Ramin.  Feel free to toss out the rest, except the RC, which is fine to do before or after the RRC.

I hope you understand this now Ramin, and that you understand that adding complication to a simple exercise like a RRC will not help, but hinder its effect.

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## Ramin2097

Hmmm....My bad.got it.
BTW if I stay for a long time at home in my room wouldn't it be ineffective to wonder over and over that :"I was in my room,I am in my room..."I mean as you mentioned it shouldn't lose the wonder.This way I guess it loses it wonder...
And maybe I'm not prepared but gonna give it a try and do WILD!of course if I wake up normally.Cause some nights I wake up naturally.Most nights in fact.Then after staying up a bit I'll try it.Wish me luck!

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## Sageous

^^ If you are in your room for a long time it might not be a good idea to do RRC's "over and over," I would think.  However, keep in mind that if you are also on your computer when in your room, there are likely many bits of reality with which you are interacting, thanks to the internet.  

Good luck with the WILD class!

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## 2Jupes

Sorry if you've covered this already in this thread, but I'm basically stuck at transition, moving in and out of vivid dreamlets like all sorts of people are I suppose, and I'm pretty sure I've got my timing right for REM because I've been doing this every night for a month, and I'm bound to have hit the right cycle at some point.   I'm also getting some pretty crazy audio and visual hypnogogic stuff going on routinely, building to full-on dreamlets.

I just cannot "roll out of my body" or "step into the dream" or "say I will be at that place in the dream" as I have sometimes heard suggested.  I've suddenly realized I was walking in a dream, even heard crunching leaves, heard my physical body snoring, saw my dream arms raised at my sides, once touched a computer screen, heard a beep and saw words appear, and even heard the explosion of a cash register and saw brilliant numbers scrolling down my visio.  But I have never managed to make the transition into a dream, and I have basically abandoned my attempts around the 45 minute mark because of the feeling of futility.   I have never, during any of those attempts, experienced a tacticle sensation.  Every one of my WILD attempts has strickly involved audio or visual experiences, so I've never sensed truly "being inside the dream" as a willful entity.

So my questions, I guess, are how long should I keep waiting for transition to occur?  Can I expect a switch to flip and this rush of lucidity to happen on its own, or it this entirely dependent on a subtle act of willpower on my part?  And is there some way to make that switch to tactile feeling happen?  I think if I FELT something in a dream scene, I'd be "in" the dream.  Anything less feels like random daydreaming.

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## Sageous

Welcome, 2Jupes!  You seem to have things pretty well in hand, and you might not be so much stuck as you simply haven't reached transition yet, but here are a couple of responses:





> I'm basically stuck at transition, moving in and out of vivid dreamlets like all sorts of people are I suppose, and I'm pretty sure I've got my timing right for REM because I've been doing this every night for a month, and I'm bound to have hit the right cycle at some point.   I'm also getting some pretty crazy audio and visual hypnogogic stuff going on routinely, building to full-on dreamlets.



 First and foremost, a month is not necessarily that long a time to be seeking a successful WILD.  If you're consistently experiencing hypnagogia and dreamlets, you may be closer than you think... indeed, if you are experiencing "full-on dreamlets," you might _already be there_, but simply haven't fully recognized the state.  A full-on dreamlet, after all, especially as you've described them above, could actually be a dream.  

It might not hurt, and may be easier than you think, to take a shot at working yourself into those dreamlets and forming them into full-on dreams. Also, as there is no sign that pops up to announce you are lucid and dreaming properly, sometimes you do need to recognize the state on your own, and create your own "ah-ha! moment.  This is especially true in WILD, where there are so many distractions (including the sometimes nagging awareness that wakefulness is literally an eye-blink away, as represented by hearing your body snoring), and the constant presence of your self-awareness can sometimes cause a mental anomaly akin to forgetting that you are self-ware.





> I just cannot "roll out of my body" or "step into the dream" or "say I will be at that place in the dream" as I have sometimes heard suggested.



Then don't.  We are not all wired the same way, and some of these popular techniques and suggestions simply don't work (i.e., I'm pretty sure I've never rolled out of my body, and have never felt at a loss for not doing so).  The real priority in WILD (and LD'ing in general) is including your self-awareness in the dream, and with it on hand you will have little trouble, with practice, developing your own method for "knowing" you are dreaming, and for getting things moving.  Sometimes doing specific things that other people tell you to do simply gets in the way. 

I see you have some successful DILDs listed in your profile.  I would suggest looking more to your feelings and knowledge you were dreaming during those as a source for spotting the dream in a WILD than in producing a transition as prescribed by someone else, even me.





> *... and I have basically abandoned my attempts around the 45 minute mark because of the feeling of futility.*



This, 2Jupes, may be your primary obstacle: you simply did not give your WILD dives enough time.  45 minutes is not a long time for a WILD attempt; in fact, it is more a median.  I would suggest that you continue your attempt for as long as possible, without considering giving up until at least 90 minutes have passed.  Sometimes these things take a while longer than you might expect, and, from your reporting, it sounds like you just needed a few more minutes.  Try to be patient, hold that feeling of futility at bay a bit longer (or better yet eliminate it completely), and stay positive, aware, and attentive for a while longer -- it might be worth the effort!  On a personal note, I've waited as long as two hours for sleep and dreams to come quite a few times, and a full hour from WBTB to sleep is common for me.  





> I have never, during any of those attempts, experienced a tactile sensation.   Every one of my WILD attempts has strickly involved audio or visual experiences, so I've never sensed truly "being inside the dream" as a willful entity.



 So?  

There are no rules for this, and audio and visual can be more than enough sensation during the WILD dive.  And, given that most dreams tend to be mostly centered around sight and sound, with touch and smell occurring but often secondary, I'm not sure that you need to qualify something as a dream only if tactile sensation is possible.  Again, you might simply be _choosing_ not to sense being inside the dream as a willful entity, try giving yourself the opportunity to do so, even if everything isn't perfect or completely like what you would normally term a dream.


Now, I think I already answered all your questions, but it makes for a good *tl;dr*, so here you go again:





> So my questions, I guess, are how long should I keep waiting for transition to occur?



 Try for a minimum of 90 minutes if you can; both because this way you give your body every chance to get back to sleep before your next REM period, and also because more than 90 minutes of being awake tends to separate you from your sleep cycle, and you might simply be awake for the day. 





> Can I expect a switch to flip and this rush of lucidity to happen on its own, or it this entirely dependent on a subtle act of willpower on my part?



 There are no switches that I know of; this really is an act of willpower/self-awareness on your part.  Also, try not to expect too much of a "rush of lucidity," as happens in DILD, because you are literally lucid throughout your WILD, so, since it's already with you, there may be no feeling of its arrival.





> And is there some way to make that switch to tactile feeling happen?  I think if I FELT something in a dream scene, I'd be "in" the dream.  Anything less feels like random daydreaming.



 Not that I know of, nor do I see any reason for the presence of a tactile feeling in a dream to define the dream.  But that's me. Still, it might be better to set aside the need to touch as a parameter for dreaming... If you must have tactile sensations, look for them _after_ you have decided that you are indeed dreaming, and have begun to explore.   This need to touch may be another block to success, in that you are simply not accepting that you are in a dream when perhaps you are. Oh, and if they are all full of sound and visuals, then I sort of envy you your random daydreams! 

I hope this made sense, and that I did not contradict myself too often (I do that a lot).  If anything was not clear, let me know and I'll try again.

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## 2Jupes

Hah awesome, thanks. That was all super helpful. I'll create a gift basket in my first WILD and send it your way  :wink2: 

Nate

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## Sharpshoey

So I read the WILD Session 2 on Monday, but I have a question. The goal was to find the right time to WBTB...but HOW do we do that? I never really notice myself wake up in the night is there a trick to doing that? 

Is DJing and just working on the RRC technique during the day sufficient daytime work? I do an RC right after the RRC too. That is all I've been doing and I'm wondering if I should add any other practices into the day.

Also, this part could probably go into the LD fundamentals thread, but making another post doesn't make much since to me. i've always been curious how you came up with the RRC technique. There are so many small details you have to get right with the RRC, how did you come up with it, and how did you know how to do it the right way? Sorry if that question was already asked...I'm just really curious and couldn't wait for an answer any longer  :tongue2:

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## Sageous

> So I read the WILD Session 2 on Monday, but I have a question. The goal was to find the right time to WBTB...but HOW do we do that? I never really notice myself wake up in the night is there a trick to doing that?



How do you find the "sweet spot," as in when to wake up, how long to WBTB?  One word: Practice.  

Do some experimentation: get up at different times, change the length of your WBTB, then mix and match, and you will eventually fall upon the time and WBTB length that works best for you.  

You do not really need to notice yourself waking up, so much as_ make a priority_ of actually getting up after 5 or more hours of sleep.  That might sound silly, but it isn't.  You already have a natural tendency to wake up for a few seconds after each REM period, and, with a little prospective memory attached, you will likely wake up with the thought that it is time to do a WBTB -- and yes, that prospective memory will be set with your intentions and a little practice, and yes, all that stuff together will  eventually have you actually getting out of bed when you wake up after several hours' sleep.  That said: I don't recommend this, but if prospective memory fails morning after morning and you continue to refuse to wake up late in the sleep cycle, you can always set an alarm clock (if you can get your hands on one of those gentle zen alarm clocks, that might help).  

So:  there is no trick. Simply do some trial and error, and you will work out your own optimum WBTB time and length.  And yes, when the ill is there, you will notice when you are naturally waking up -- but if not, then settle for an alarm.





> Is DJing and just working on the RRC technique during the day sufficient daytime work? I do an RC right after the RRC too. That is all I've been doing and I'm wondering if I should add any other practices into the day.



I doubt there is ever "sufficient" daytime work, but DJ'ing, RRC's, and RC's is a substantial start.  

You should also be giving lots of thought to your next planned LD, and try to think about dreaming as often as you can, to build up some expectation.  Plus, it doesn't hurt to do some reading about ld'ing, talking about it (posting here is always a good thing), and just having it on our mind, to maybe cause a bit of dreamy day residue, and help get your head in a good, dream-oriented place.  Beyond that there is surely more, like meditation or mnemonic exercises; the limits are up to you.

Remember also that this is a WILD course, and not a general LD'ing course.  For the sake of brevity and concision I might have left things out that are not directly related to completing your WILD.

So: DJ'ing, RRC's, and RC's are certainly a strong start, but there is always more you could be doing.





> ...I've always been curious how you came up with the RRC technique. There are so many small details you have to get right with the RRC, how did you come up with it, and how did you know how to do it the right way?



I think it came up with me.  The RRC simply reflects a thing I found myself doing a few years ago as atool to augment my ever-troublesome memory, and give myself a self-awareness reminder on a frequent basis.  The details were assembled by just sitting quietly and thinking about what I was asking myself so many times a day.

How did I know how to do it the right way?  Well, because the way I was doing it _worked,_ I guess!

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## Sharpshoey

OK so I've been trying to pay attention to the times I wake up in the night. I have noticed waking up at exactly 3:45 and just last night I woke up around 3:25 (it was somewhere in the 3:20's) So do you think I should wake up around 3:30 then? I go to bed at 10 every night so that would be over 5 hours of sleep. It would be great to hear your thoughts on this though.

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## Sageous

^^ I'm not sure why you are asking me this.  When you wake up is up to you, based on your own experimentation and comfort. I can certainly not tell you, apparently to the minute, when you should wake up, nor would I want to.  Try to use your own judgment.  Also, keep in mind that this is not a measure of minutes; try to work your trial and error across a good amount of time -- i.e, try waking up after 4 hrs, 5 hrs, 6 hrs, and just find the time that works best for you.

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## Sharpshoey

Ya I don't really know hwy I just asked that question. I certainly don't want anyone else to dictate how I sleep!  :tongue2:  I think I may have just been over thinking the WBTB time or something like that. (not really thinking clearly right now) Thanks for the reply regardless.

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## livingthedream

From what I have gleaned from this thread, the RRC seems to be a mental practice in recognizing your local interaction with reality - the things you do, why you do them, how you do them, etc. All because of the nature of our consciousness do we have this so called "self-awareness" that is really just us living our lives through our own eyes - and it seems that this is what the practice of self awareness deals with.

Hopefully im on the right track because it made sense when i was typing. Sageous thanks for making this thread - it will for sure help push me on my path, though Im not sure I agree with everything youve written here (not that you would want me too, of course), I for sure have found a lot of value in the time and effort you invested in putting this thread together. On behalf of the community, thank you.

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## Djaxup

Hello Sageous,

I never (or very rarely) get - or notice - HI or noise. What I have gathered from my WILD attempts so far: 

- nothing happens. After quite some time I either decide to get up or just sleep already. Sometimes I get some slight "movement" sensations. Nothing spectacular usually.
- I sleep too fast. This is funnily my best LD source so far. WBTB (short), then lying still and relaxed and some mantra reciting and I am asleep again. If one happens (rarely), the LD either has me start lucid in a bed, or I know something is off from the start and gain lucidity very early in the dream.
- a bombardment of short and usually fast paced dreamlets. I close my eyes and the movie on acid starts. This usually happens when I am totally smashed/tired from a WBTB, where I barely find the way to the toilet and back...  :wink2:  still, the dreamlets either are so vivid and action packed that I jolt up from them, only to instantly get to the next, or I drift into a regular dream.

Right now, apart from the LD spawned from WILD attempts, my rare DILDs where I randomly get lucid inside a regular dream due to a random RC or a helpful DC are still my most numerous LDs. I wish I could ramp up that rate though. Right now, I have about 1-2 LD per month. Sometimes I don't have any for 2 months.

Do you have any tips for me? 
I've never entered sleep atonia in a wakeful state (I know it's not important either) but I know that feeling very well. Just about every LD I have left so far had me witnessing the waking up part completely. I feel the atonia fading from my body. I still can never DEILD, even if I don't move a bit. It never worked... I guess for most ppl the tricky part is the conditioning and noticing the right time. I think I am very aware of what is happening, and still I just slowly wake up more and more. 
I have witnessed the "falling asleep" part once, in my very first LD. Never again after that. I don't understand why.

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## Sageous

^^ My primary tip, Djaxup, is to suggest that you consider this thought:  

It is okay to WILD without _any_ noise.

WILD is all about falling asleep without losing waking-life self-awareness, or staying awake while your body falls asleep. It is not about not about experiencing HI, or REM atonia, or dreamlets, or movement, or vibrations, or whatever else is discussed on these forums.  

I for one very rarely feel any of the stuff listed above, and yet I have had thousands of WILDs.  The noise really isn't important at all; try not to look for it, and definitely try not to judge the success or quality of your WILD attempt on whether you experienced HI or vibrations/movement, etc.  Yes, those things can and will happen, but they are merely milestones on your way to the dream, they are not integral to your WILD dive, and certainly aren't required. 

If you are falling asleep fast, that is a _good_ thing -- as long as you maintain self-awareness throughout that fall.

Next, there is nothing wrong with falling asleep and waking up in a dream.  Yes, that would turn your WILD attempt into a DILD, but who cares?  A lucid dream is a lucid dream; how you got there does not matter, as long as you did.

Finally, there is more to DEILD than just holding still.  It is very helpful to realize you are beginning to wake up, and start your DEILD before your body finishes the wake-up process.  Also, you should be focusing on returning to the dream you just left (or perhaps into a planned new dream), and do so with strong self-awareness.  I go into this in slightly more detail in the DEILD session of the WILD class to which this thread is attached, if you're interested.

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## TDHXIII

I don't know how i can fall asleep while being aware. This is the only obstacle i have during all of my attempts.. 
My only successful WILD was accidental and my anchor was being worried, that anchor is not reproduceable though. Please, how do i sleep while being aware? What anchor is good?

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## Sageous

^^ Well, given that the very definition of WILD is falling asleep without losing your waking-life self-awareness, I guess the best answer is to suggest that you take the DVA WILD class to which this thread is attached.  It might cover what you need.  There is even a class on mantras (aka, anchors) that might help.

This was probably not the answer that you were looking for, but some questions have no short answer.  

Good luck!

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## Djaxup

Thanks, good info as usual. After reading the DEILD post I have a feeling I know what I have to do to make it work. I will report back.

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## TDHXIII

> ^^ Well, given that the very definition of WILD is falling asleep without losing your waking-life self-awareness, I guess the best answer is to suggest that you take the DVA WILD class to which this thread is attached.  It might cover what you need.  There is even a class on mantras (aka, anchors) that might help.
> 
> This was probably not the answer that you were looking for, but some questions have no short answer.  
> 
> Good luck!



Alright, i'll see what i can do.
After posting the question i tried going for a nap WILD, which basically ended in me falling asleep before i saw anything interesting. 
Note that i started using the counting anchor then threw it away and starting thinking randomly.

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## Sageous

^^ Though I still suggest you check out the course, even before you try to WILD again, here are a couple more thoughts:

First, there is nothing interesting to see except the dream.  Try not to look for things to happen during your WILD, and just stay focused on getting to the dream.

Also, try to maintain your anchor/mantra.  Throwing away your anchor is about equal to throwing away your WILD, from a focus point of view.

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## quassom

Hey Sageous,

So in the very first lesson you stress the importance of self awareness. I also have a friend who is really good at DILD. He has never visited this forum or this tutorial and on a whim how his self awareness was what allowed him to become lucid so consistently. When I read the section on self awareness I had a hard time really understanding exactly what it feels like to be aware. Maybe I'm overthinking this but I can't seem to understand the idea of being self aware. Do you have any other insights on this? 

Thanks!

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## Sageous

^^ Hmm.  I've been asked hundreds of questions on this forum, with many repeats, but I think this is the first time I've been asked what it feels like to be self-aware... not that there's anything wrong with that!

For me the feeling of self-awareness probably covers a few different sensations:

First, the feeling of self-awareness is a bit counter-intuitive:  when you are self-aware, you feel a stronger connection with your local reality. You feel your own presence in your environment, in social situations, etc., and you know that you are a participant significantly interacting with reality itself.  In a sense, you feel involved, and that involvement feels important. This is the primary feeling for WILD and LD'ing, BTW, because when in a dream you are able to feel that involvement and can also understand that that involvement is not with physical reality, but with a world of your own making, a world that in total is _You_.

Next, the obvious feeling of self-awareness is the classic sensation of "I am."  Much of our lives (waking and dreaming) are spent in a sort of zombie mode, where we go through the motions of daily life without giving them much attention or thought.  When self-aware, you realize that _You_ are present, that you exist, and that feeling can be quite exhilarating. 

Finally, the presence of self-awareness makes you much more conscious of what you are saying or doing.  For instance, you might be ion an argument with someone, and you would choose to bite your lip before saying something that might hurt your opponent's feelings; something you wouldn't do while in zombie-mode.

I guess all three of these feelings are about the same, and are only aspects of the same thing: the feeling of self-awareness is one of knowing you exist, and that you are deeply connected with your local reality.

One other point:  yes, you are very likely over-thinking this.   There really is no need to wonder what it feels like to be self-aware, because that is secondary to the actual condition of self-awareness.  When you are able to tap it on purpose, you will know that you are self-aware, and whatever you happen to feel at the time is secondary.  In other words, work on your self-awareness to the point of achieving it, and you will not need to know how it feels.

Another tip is to practice RRC's regularly and sincerely, as it is a simple exercise meant to ignite self-awareness, whether you know how it feels or not.

That's all I have on the spur of the moment; I hope it helps.

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## RelaxAndDream

Hello now posting here  :smiley: 
i´ve posted this in my workbook to i hope its okay? Or should i next time just link it?
however:

Tonight i´ve had a short LD after SSILD WILD. This time i would say it was a real WILD... This time it was pretty exhausting because i didn´t want to fall asleep unconscious right away so i stayed up a bit longer ( about 40min, unintentionally, i wrote down a dream which seem to be a bit longer...) and than did again my SSILD voodoo followed by WILD. This time i count from 100 down and visualized the nummers (which worked pretty well) i noticed here and there i was distracted but because of the visualization it was easier to find back where i stoped counting. after each number i thought "i am dreaming" dont know if it is necessary next  time i may try to just count. But now like i thought it would be i was more conscious and anxious not to fall asleep unconscious and so i managed after all to hit 1... and dumb thing i think i kind of got excited because what do you do if you hit zero xD... suddenly it got to warm under my blanket and i needed to put out my arm. i noticed more and more often i was somewhere in between and i saw for example my browser with a tap open dreamview or even heard a distand voice for a short period of time. but everytime i get an visual i "twich" and was a little more awake than before... i then tried counting again but always the same effect. i was to focused on realizing  the moment i enter the dreamworld... i´ve then tried to imagine while counting to swing forth and back in my bed and i think i moved my eyes left and right which kind of worked too but again to focused when pictures or thoughts come up. i´ve tried to see through my closed eyes and to levitate in my bed but everything was to forced... i´ve tried it because i´ve read somewhere you need to see a dream where you can enter...
i then decided to just try to fall asleep again so i turned on my other side and did one or two more SSILD cycles. after some time wanting to sleep but still not giving up for 100% i was somehow really awake so i thought maby to do an RC and somewhat i finaly was in my LD....FINALLY^^ 
 I got up and did some RC´s. and thought i would take my blanked and try to feel it intensly so my dream got stable. i then decided to jump out of my window and start exploring but everytime i want to jump i get scared "What if i´m not dreaming and really jump out of the fukin window?" so i did some more RC and looked around for proof. i tried btw thumb through palm for the first time. it was funny because i didnt trained it before so i had no expectation how it should look like. i pushed and pushed and somhow my skin everted on the other side and it was pretty obvious but i still catched me thinkin hm is this enough or is it still normal xD but enough of the RC´s i then was sure enough and jumped out of the window
i tried to jump on a bus but i didnt work so i run to the busstop but the thing started to ride away i run alongside and opened the door and jumped in. the busdriver was kind of complaning but i ignored him. (he should have just wait for a sec  :smiley: ) i then decided to talk to an DC (indended it before because i wanted to see what happen and i wanted to ask if she/he has something for me). i run thru the bus which now is a traffic streetcar and i want to decide to whom to talk. some faces dont look nice some look out of the window so i dont see them. after some steps everyone is turning their face away from me so i snap with my finger so they look. and it even worked  :smiley: . i see three girls, two of them don´t look friendly but one seems nice and i think i saw her before. i sit next to her and i start with: Hi. and she replies with a hi and how are you. i say fine bla bla.
after some time the image gets dark an i catch myself thinkin about my real body and i think i hear my  roomate so this is the reason i wake up... in fact my roommate stil wasn´t up so i just tried to explain myself why i loose control instead doing something against it... i did one attempt by asking here if she has something for me. the visual gets clear again for like 3 seconds and then i hear her just saying something and i have a false awake. i kind of know but i have gum in my mouth what really irritates me so i loose my lucidity i then wake up for real and move imidiatly because i has the irresistable urge to strech... damn no DEILD this time  :smiley: 
but still i am happy and stand up right away 
i started my attempt at 7 am and woke up at 8:45 --> LD was max some minutes so damn i was way to long awake trying...

any suggestions how to get faster in transition to Dreamworld without loosing consciousness? and maby i was already long time dreaming (i dont think so but...) how to find it out faster? i mean doing everytime right away a RC would throw me back if i am not dreaming yet...
and i think its time to read some more about dreamstability and control... third lucid in a row not that vivid and long like i would like to...

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## Sageous

^^ Just so you don't think I'm ignoring you (or any other posters), I'm away from my machines for most of the next few days, so please be patient and I'll respond when I can.

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## Sageous

> any suggestions how to get faster in transition to Dreamworld without loosing consciousness?



 Actually, your transition to the dreamworld seemed pretty speedy; it seemed that it was your body falling asleep that took a while. You might try relaxing a bit and not try so many things as the dream approaches (i.e., if your experience some HI, like that DV Browser or the voices, just let them slide by peacefully instead of feeling a need to do something). Just think about your dream, hang onto your anchor/mantra, and let your body fall asleep.   





> was your and maby i was already long time dreaming (i dont think so but...) how to find it out faster? i mean doing everytime right away a RC would throw me back if i am not dreaming yet...



If you are doing a WILD successfully, you _will know_ when you begin dreaming, so there is no need to find out faster; you probably won't even need to do a RC to confirm.  I suggest that perhaps you hold off doing RC's _at all_, and don't make "finding out" you are in a LD a priority of your WILD dive.  Again, you will know when you are dreaming; be patient and just let it happen.  And if you think you might not be dreaming while standing at your window, leave through a door; wondering if you are in waking life during a dream is a sure way to lose lucidity. 





> and i think its time to read some more about dreamstability and control... third lucid in a row not that vivid and long like i would like to...



 Perhaps, and I understand what you are saying, but keep in mind that lucidity does not equal vividness.  You can be highly lucid in the dullest of dreams.  I would suggest that you hold off concern about this stuff until after you've gained some more experience and are more familiar with the experience itself.  It might not be time yet to add stability and control techniques to the pile of things you are already doing.  That said, you might be able to make your LD's more interesting by setting specific goals about what you wish to do when lucid.

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## RelaxAndDream

Hello Sageous, thanks for answering. 




> it seemed that it was your body falling asleep that took a while



How can you tell? i´ve always had the feeling my body is relaxed pretty fast/good... and i thought HI and so on can only start after my body is away already? i had the feeling my mind is to awake but i think the real obstacle was indeed like you said the noticing the HI and thinking i now need to do something so the dream starts. this time i was a little more chillaxed i think  :smiley: 

Yesterday i did a new dive like you call it and i kind of was successful again. I did some DEILDS and woke up alot so i can´t tell exactly the chronology of events... But i will try:

i again did SSILD first then started my WILD.

[i tried the day before yesterday with just a mantra: do remember (that you lie in bed and dream) i started with the whole mantra and after a while shorted it to just do remember because i thought i know the deeper meaning so i dont need to repeat the whole sentence. i did not count. my WILD failed because i just fall asleep after some time and dont even had a DILD. but at this night i got at 3am to bed and was tired so maby just a wrong day to concentrate on something new.  (even though i did my WBTB after 6h of sleep)]

so this time i swapped again to my old method with counting and "i dream" after each number. this time i started again at 1 and not at 100. I think i was a little bit more relaxed than the last times. I often lost focus of counting but i noticed it quite quick (i think)
After some time i saw someone ring a doorbell in a dream and i opened and it was my dad (it was one of my goals to meet him and talk to him in my dream) so i think this might be a successful WILD. But after opening the door and seeing him i woke up... doh... nevermind i lay still and kept on trying. interestingly next thing i remember same apartment but i lay on the ground and try to fall asleep in another room. my roommate tells me to lay down on the bed, i do and tell him the blanket is not big enough for the two of us... --> lost my lucidity... I think i got it back after a short time because i was more concious. (here not sure about the chronology) i then stood up i think and got into the kitchen to eat something to stabilize --> dumb thing is i didnt thought of what i wanted to eat so in the frigde was nothing usefull and i wanted to eat... i remember that my other roommate enter the kitchen and i did a backflip just because i wanted to show him i can.... woke up/dream got unstable after i did it... i felt a little unsecure because i nearly hit the ceiling light :/
same apartment again: i wake up in my "room" (looked different because the whole apartment kind of was not mine at all) do a RC and am lucid again. this time i run through the hallway and want to look through the window (another goal of mine was to see a nice sky) window was too small to see up so i opend and saw funny people on the ground with animalcostumes. nevermind  :wink2:  so i go into the kitchen and want to burn something (and again a goal of mine was burn something of me that matters to me). It kind of hit the goal because it was nothing of my possession but i still managed to find a lighter and burn some folder. they didnt burn that well though so i throw a dishtowel on it so it might burn better...lets say it could be a nicer fire but still it burned. i did everything on the ceramic glass cooktop (so nothing else burn up i think...) someone came in and now we want to leave the flat. while they or me put on there shoes i remembered another goal to let something float. i first did it with my hand then i remembered i shouldnt use telekinese so i put my hand down and did it again. it worked without problems. we then go down the stairs and are outside i see a parking lot and i want to drive (i had a goal that i want to drive a car and crash into everything openminded). i wanted to take the bike and not the car but i needed to turn it around because it was in the wrong direction. i needed some attempts because there was not much space to turn... i think i got nervous and again the dream faded... this time i woke up for real and was to awake to dive in again. 

now interesting things that happened too: 
-i must have had a false awakening because i dreamed that i felt that i have dental braces on (like the last time i had a gum in my mouth dont know what this is all about) but i can´t tell when this happend
-i know that i turned after some of my DEILDS on my other side and just started counting again for another WILD because i thought why not  :wink2:  and i think it worked. maby it was the one i woke up in my bed and was instant lucid but i can´t tell anymore... but nice one i can turn and keep on going my WILD/DEILD as long as i dont strech or think too much!?
- my goals btw where from here: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...ilization.html i´ve read it before you answered. 

so overall i am happy because even if i wake up alot and loose it had enough time to do some things i intended. maby you can tell me what you see but i think:

-i have not really problems in remembering my goals (what is this called then? Prospective memory?)
-kind of get the hang not to pay to much attention to falling asleep (but needs more tries to tell for sure). the first dive was catchier then the rest everytime i woke up then and i started counting again it was way faster and i had less problems with the noise
-still think in schemes and bounded to RL experiences because i did the fire on the cooker and not on the table for example or didnt turn the bike by my mind or think of another way to turn it but get insecure about it (for a brief moment i even thought if the machine might be to heavy for me because it was huge and i dont even have a licence for that but this thought i could manage and it was kind of no problem to move the machine)
-i at some point was in SP i wanted to move my arms and it felt like i did but nothing happend. no problem i thought one thing less to care about, closed my eyes and DEILD.... dont know again if it just was a dream but i dont think about SP at all before so i think i had no intention so no reason to dream about it
- i remember trying spinning for stabilization two times maby this dream. once it more or less worked once i woke up from it again (or had a FA dont know)
-i think i need to think way more about my goals and have a more precise expectation what i want to dream and what i want to do because i think everytime i just don´t know exactly what to do i get nervous and the dream gets unstable but it goes hand in hand with beeing pretty fast insecure in general in my LD (i think like having sex for the first time xD). i thought about it a day before and come to the conclusion that i dont really have THE reason why i try to LD... i just find it interesting and want to use it maby to find a dreammentor or to learn more about me (and intigrate my egos) and to see what is all possible but i think this reasons are to unspecific so when i get lucid i just dont know what to do. the time i had my goals in my mind it seemed pretty funny and stable. also with the WILD dive itself seemed to work better because i wanted to see my dad somehow and so i saw right away i was there and not maby dreaming about beeing in my room still laying in my bed and trying to WILD (like i thought the post before)!?
-my goals i worked on where form this thread: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...ilization.html i think of work on them after one another. or do you think this is not that a good idea? 


do you have a hint how to handle my immature insecurity and nervousness? i thought about another goal i want to achieve is to tell myself what my actual status is in a LD: in my bed, dreaming and creator of this reality i am in. does something like this work or does it wake me up because again i think about my body? like your mind explodes because you see the real matrix xD
i also thought about meditating in a dream but again i dont know if it would work just like that when i sit down and close my eyes? doesnt closing eyes or focusing on something to long makes the dream unstable?
or do you say it is just a matter of practice to have the hang of it? but even if what would be a good practice to firm my dreamworld willpower?


dumb thing is i will start my diplomawork tomorrow... so no more practicing WILD during the week. only on weekends and hopefully not partying to much because then again i will even lose a day more :/

so maby i will look for some good MILD techniques... but even then without WBTB it will be a dryspell? or should i just be optimistic?  :tongue2: 

Edit: last one and i think this is a "stupid" one but: while WILDING i _should_ think about a dream/visualize where i want to go not just wait for a picture to come up? kind of visualize a goal and how i do it? but not right away from the beginning but when i see that i start to get here and there short HI so i can kick of the dream?


again a lot of questions... sorry for this  :smiley:

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## Patience108

Thank you Sageoues - I see yes,I should reply here on this thread,sorry about that!
Also will look into the tutorial on mantra that you pointed out to me, cheers. 
All Your input is sincerely  :smiley:  appreciated as always
Am doing my best to play around with wbtb times I order to get more experience   ::wink::   it's tricky to find sweet spot when most days I have to get up at the same time of around 6.45 am - but I am able to be shifting wbtb time of execution around as some nights I can get to bed as early as 9pm - any suggestions with this?

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## Sageous

*RelaxAndDream:*

I know I'm not addressing everything in your post, but here are a few thoughts:





> it seemed that it was your body falling asleep that took a while
> 			
> 		
> 
> 
> How can you tell? i´ve always had the feeling my body is relaxed pretty fast/good... and i thought HI and so on can only start after my body is away already? i had the feeling my mind is to awake but i think the real obstacle was indeed like you said the noticing the HI and thinking i now need to do something so the dream starts. this time i was a little more chillaxed i think



Actually, things like HI, dreamlets, and odd physical sensations are occurring while your body is balancing on the fence between wake and sleep; you are not fully asleep when you experience HI.  

In my opinion, your mind can never be too awake to LD (lucidity is, after all, defined by the wakefulness of your mind), so don't be concerned about that -- however, don't let your wakeful mind interfere with your body as it falls asleep:  make your it is your mind that is awake, and not your physical brain.

Also, you do not need to do anything for the dream to start; it will do so just fine on its own.  I'm not sure what i said, but that was not what I meant.  Try not to ever feel like you _have to do something_ during a WILD, as this sort of thinking will only amplify the insecurity you mentioned, especially if you either can't remember what you are "supposed to do."  





> i again did SSILD first then started my WILD.



SSILD is actually a form of WILD, and because of this successfully completing a SSILD should have landed you in a LD.  I'm just mentioning this because you might want to double-check your SSILD technique, as it does not seem to be something that needs to be done before a WILD (since it is a WILD doing so seems a bit redundant).





> -i know that i turned after some of my DEILDS on my other side and just started counting again for another WILD because i thought why not  and i think it worked. maby it was the one i woke up in my bed and was instant lucid but i can´t tell anymore... but nice one i can turn and keep on going my WILD/DEILD as long as i dont strech or think too much!?



Sure.  Though it is best to hold still as you emerge from your last dream so that you can DEILD back into it, it is possible to move a bit, and even open your eyes fro a moment.  It is a very good idea to avoid wake-up activities like stretching and thinking too much (if by that you mean thinking about waking-life problems or activities).





> -i have not really problems in remembering my goals (what is this called then? Prospective memory?)



  Prospective memory is essentially remembering to remember so yes, I suppose this is prospective memory.





> -still think in schemes and bounded to RL experiences because i did the fire on the cooker and not on the table for example or didnt turn the bike by my mind or think of another way to turn it but get insecure about it (for a brief moment i even thought if the machine might be to heavy for me because it was huge and i dont even have a licence for that but this thought i could manage and it was kind of no problem to move the machine)



Your recognizing that you are thinking this way in dreams is a very good thing, because it is a sign that you are stepping further way from the "default" non-lucid condition of believing the dreamworld must work exactly as the waking-world works --perhaps you are already showing signs of lucid maturity?

I would suggest that you give things like this some thought during waking-life dreamwork.  Perhaps you can set some goals for dreams that completely defy the physical laws of waking life, like breathing underwater or a dream scene with no gravity; this way it might be easier to assure yourself that it doesn't matter how big the bike is, or where the fire can be set.





> -i at some point was in SP i wanted to move my arms and it felt like i did but nothing happened. no problem i thought one thing less to care about, closed my eyes and DEILD.... dont know again if it just was a dream but i dont think about SP at all before so i think i had no intention so no reason to dream about it



That is an excellent attitude!  Try not to lose it!





> -i think i need to think way more about my goals and have a more precise expectation what i want to dream and what i want to do because i think everytime i just don´t know exactly what to do i get nervous and the dream gets unstable but it goes hand in hand with beeing pretty fast insecure in general in my LD (i think like having sex for the first time xD). i thought about it a day before and come to the conclusion that i dont really have THE reason why i try to LD... i just find it interesting and want to use it maby to find a dreammentor or to learn more about me (and intigrate my egos) and to see what is all possible but i think this reasons are to unspecific so when i get lucid i just dont know what to do. the time i had my goals in my mind it seemed pretty funny and stable. also with the WILD dive itself seemed to work better because i wanted to see my dad somehow and so i saw right away i was there and not maby dreaming about beeing in my room still laying in my bed and trying to WILD (like i thought the post before)!?



Yes, goals are extremely important, especially early in your LD practice, and pretty much for the reasons you already said.  A little specificity is almost an anchor during a WILD:  If you know where you want to be come dreamtime, and can focus on that thought throughout the WILD, you have a better chance of lucidly winding up there.





> do you have a hint how to handle my immature insecurity and nervousness?



Just one hint: _practice, practice, practice_.   The more WILDs you attempt, whether successful or not, the more secure you become in your skills, your techniques, and above all your own mind.  Just keep practicing, and do so with a positive, "next time I will do better" attitude, and you will find eventually that insecurity and nervousness are no longer problems (indeed, you likely won't even remember that they _were_ problems!).





> i thought about another goal i want to achieve is to tell myself what my actual status is in a LD: in my bed, dreaming and creator of this reality i am in. does something like this work or does it wake me up because again i think about my body? like your mind explodes because you see the real matrix xD



I don't think that setting a goal of telling yourself your actual physical status during a LD is really necessary; you need only remember that your physical body is somewhere else than your dream body, peacefully asleep in bed.  The same goes for remembering that this dreamworld is all your creation, indeed it is _all You_, but setting a goal to do this might simply lead to a NLD _about_ doing this.  Instead, learn to just_ remember_ these things during the dream; make them a standard component of your dreaming posture rather than something you think about during your WILD.  RRC's, BTW are a very handy tool for developing this component!

Oh, and fear not: your mind will not explode and there is no real matrix; just you.  Thinking about your sleeping body during a dream is actually an excellent tool for self-awareness and stability, and not the other way around (no matter what you read on these forums).





> i also thought about meditating in a dream but again i dont know if it would work just like that when i sit down and close my eyes? doesnt closing eyes or focusing on something to long makes the dream unstable?



Meditation in a dream can be very interesting, but you might consider waiting until you have accumulated some more LD'ing experience before you go there, because it requires some extra stability skills, along with the confident knowledge that no, closing your dreambody eyes or focusing on something for a long time will only make the dream unstable if you allow them to do so (just like remembering your sleeping body, BTW). 





> or do you say it is just a matter of practice to have the hang of it?



Again, yes.





> but even if what would be a good practice to firm my dreamworld willpower?



  That will be up to you.  Ultimately, though, your experience will define your willpower and confidence in the dreams, so the best practice is simply_ practice_: Do your daytime dreamwork (i.e., RC, RRC's, set and think about goals, and develop your fundamentals), positively attempt WILDs whether the last one (or ten) was successful or not, develop your MILD skills (handy for DILD and WILD/DIELD), and always know that you will be lucid tonight.  Stick to all this, and eventually your dreamworkd willpower will be a given.





> dumb thing is i will start my diplomawork tomorrow... so no more practicing WILD during the week. only on weekends and hopefully not partying to much because then again i will even lose a day more :/
> so maby i will look for some good MILD techniques... but even then without WBTB it will be a dryspell? or should i just be optimistic?



  This may actually be a good thing, so be optimistic.  I have found that WILD attempts work much better when you schedule them.  If you have a specific day and time (like a weekend morning) to plan for and anticipate your WILD, your chances of having one should increase.  

Also, if looking into MILD results from your schedule change, then that is good too:  The techniques that make up MILD (like managing prospective memory) are very useful for DILD and WILD, so it will be helpful to know them.





> Edit: last one and i think this is a "stupid" one but: while WILDING i _should_ think about a dream/visualize where i want to go not just wait for a picture to come up? kind of visualize a goal and how i do it? but not right away from the beginning but when i see that i start to get here and there short HI so i can kick of the dream?



Not so stupid, I think: While WILDing, you can feel free to think about a dream and visualize it _any_ time:  during the dive, before any HI shows up, during WBTB, as you fall asleep the night before, during the day of the the night before, etc (I think you get my point!). There is no need to wait for anything, and there is certainly no need to wait for HI for _any_ reason, including starting to visualize.





> again a lot of questions... sorry for this



It sure was!  i must off a bit of a warning, though, in that I really don't have time to properly address these long posts, so I hope you'll forgive if my responses are shorter next time...

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## Sageous

> Am doing my best to play around with wbtb times I order to get more experience    it's tricky to find sweet spot when most days I have to get up at the same time of around 6.45 am - but I am able to be shifting wbtb time of execution around as some nights I can get to bed as early as 9pm - any *suggestions* with this?



Just one, and one I think I may have mentioned above: consider setting aside a specific time and day to attempt your WILD, and make it a time and day in which you are not constrained by your waking-life schedule and obligations.  

WILD's work best when you have an open schedule for sleep, have nowhere specific to be, nothing specific to do in waking-life immediately after your attempt, and are not obliged to be roused by an alarm.  Even if this means attempting a dive just once a week or less, it might ultimately bring you more success than you may have had trying every night.  This is not only the case because that "sweet spot" will be much more identifiable, but because you can spend much more waking-life time preparing for your dive.

That said, it still doesn't hurt to practice your WILD dive every night, perhaps even with WBTB's (preferably after a minmum of 5 hrs' sleep), but save the real effort for when you can be fully dedicated to it.

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## Patience108

That sounds like excellent advise and helps me to stay relaxed about my attempts but keep focus :;-): 

Do you have what you would call an actual routine or practice you do each evening befor bed or at other times - I am aware there are times in the day to bring intention very clear,and evening is one of those times ... If you have an actual amount of time you sit down for and or if you could go threw the process of what you do would be great, cheers  ::thanks::  if you don't do this but know of others who do please let me know so I can ask them more about this sort of prep practice for LD  ::cheers::

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## Sageous

^^ My actual routine is generally this*:  First, I leave every Wednesday free to do WILD's (I can do that because I am retired).  I spend much of Tuesday evening thinking about my plans for the next day's session.  I stay up a bit later than usual, to about 2am, still thinking dreamy thoughts, maybe even watching a "dreamy" movie.  I go to sleep thinking about and attempting to visualize where I want to be the next morning (I say "attempting" because I am lousy at visualization).  I then wake up at around 8:00.  I do a WBTB for at least 30 minutes, then settle down to my WILD.

This routine is of course on top of regular day work, which includes RC's, RRC's, much active thought about LD'ing in general, and review of my specific plans for Wednesday.  

Also, the Wednesday routine is in addition to doing WILD's during weekend naps, and laying down every night with the full intention to LD, just in case there is a DILD in my stars. 



* Note: should you find something about my routine in the hundreds of posts I've made on these threads that doesn't match this, that's fine: my routine is quite fluid, always adjusting slightly to changes in attitude, schedules, and my own physical state... yours should be as well.

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## Patience108

::sunflower:: That's pretty late you go to bed  :smiley:  did you have to look hard for this late thing to find it was your sweet spot? Or do you always go to bed realy late anyway so in that way finding it quite easily? 

On my day off I am wondering wether to try to stay up realy late to give something like that a try - but I don't usualy go to bed late... I could get a tv put in my sleeping room and watch a late movie... Or do you think it's better at first just to go with my usual sleep times?

When you say dreamy thoughts you mean keeping your mind on LD dream topic + visualisation intention etc?

When you say spending much of the evening befor planning, do you mean sitting back seeing your plan come to life ... Maybe doing small sessions of visualisation and RRC etc?  what is most of the evening ; a few hours on and off?

or do you write down exacts for your plan and then vis? How do you create your plan... For example my plans are simple like executing a wild and when Lucid Finding a tree to climb to see a view.. Should I sit down and plan this from the very start , if so how - I.e beginning from when I get relaxed into bed?

Dreamy Moovies are like Matrix or oh I don't know many ::alien::  - which others would you watch?

I just realised its Wednesday  :smiley:  hope you had a good one!

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## Sageous

> That's pretty late you go to bed  did you have to look hard for this late thing to find it was your sweet spot? Or do you always go to bed realy late anyway so in that way finding it quite easily?



I had to look a little bit, but that looking was more of a whittling-down of the 12-14 hrs of sleep I used to require for LD's (35 yrs ago) to a fairly fine-tuned "WBTB after 5-6hrs' sleep with the LD's happening during morning hours," because I've found that, for me, my LD's work best in the morning, after my night's sleep has been completed (more in a sec).  Also, I do tend to go to bed late, but usually around midnight to 1am, so I didn't have to look very hard anyway. 





> On my day off I am wondering wether to try to stay up realy late to give something like that a try - but I don't usualy go to bed late... I could get a tv put in my sleeping room and watch a late movie... Or do you think it's better at first just to go with my usual sleep times?



  I think you shouldn't mess too much with your natural sleep cycle; in other words, if you go to bed early, don't force yourself to stay up really late. 

I think the real target here is to have your WBTB occur after you've taken care of your general sleep requirements, which in my mind is sometime after around 5 to 6 hrs' sleep.  What you do not want to do is cut your "required" sleep cycle into pieces (i.e. doing a WBTB after 3-4 hrs' sleep, or long before your normal wake-up time in the morning). If you can do this without staying up terribly late, that's just fine.  By the same token, though, if you are able to _add_ hours of sleep to your nights' sleep, and can do a WBTB in the morning, that is even better.  I guess the bottom line here is that you try not to disrupt your regular sleep schedule too much (if at all) by attaching your WBTB and WILD attempt to its very end...if you can go to bed at 9pm, then awaken at, say, 5 or 6am, and still manage to go back to sleep, then you can have a good night's sleep on your normal schedule and still have room in your sleep cycle for WILD simply by adding to it (of course, that means scheduling a day when you can sleep those extra hours). 





> When you say dreamy thoughts you mean keeping your mind on LD dream topic + visualisation intention etc?



Yes, as long as part of that "etc." is remembering the dreams from which I just awoke, as this seems to keep me attached to my dreamworld while awake.





> When you say spending much of the evening befor planning, do you mean sitting back seeing your plan come to life ... Maybe doing small sessions of visualisation and RRC etc?  what is most of the evening ; a few hours on and off?



Pretty much, though not as much visualization as I would like (because, again, I'm bad at it).  I think it could be called a sort of loose construction project in my head, where I review my goals and work out what I anticipate doing to achieve them.  This is not as dry as it sounds, because much of that construction is very exciting, and helps build expectation.  Funny thing, though:  what happens in the LD itself rarely resembles what I planned, because I invariably find a different way to approach my goals during the dream!  And yet I still plan, contemplate, and get excited about those goals for most of the night before dream day.  

All that thought is generally back-burner stuff, though, done while going through my usual Tuesday night routines, watching TV, reading, etc, though things intensify quite a bit at bedtime during the hour or so it takes me to fall asleep.  "Most of the Night" varies from week to week, I think in general I'm giving my lucid plans attention for at least several hours, with that attention growing as bedtime nears.





> or do you write down exacts for your plan and then vis?



 Nope. Never.  Dreaming is not an exact science, and writing down plans can lead to a sort of documentation of exactly what _must_ happen, which will lead to disappointment later.  Better to stay fluid and let your imagination wander among your goals, giving your dreaming mind ample fuel for the dreams.  





> How do you create your plan... For example my plans are simple like executing a wild and when Lucid Finding a tree to climb to see a view.. Should I sit down and plan this from the very start , if so how - I.e beginning from when I get relaxed into bed?



My plans these days are sort of an evolution of past goals and their resultant dreams; generally very long-term stuff that probably doesn't matter much here.  Essentially the goals you set can be whatever you want them to be, and the relevant planning can go on all night for even the simplest of goals.  For instance, let's say your goal is to climb a tree and simply look around:  you can spend hours imagining  that tree and its placement in your dream scene, and how you will go about finding it (or forming it), and even more time imagining what you might see from that tree or (better yet) wondering what surprises you will discover from your perch.  In the end your planning is not about specifically designing your dreams or your goals, but about building up anticipation for the manifestation of your goals, and that anticipation need not be too specific.

Also, I recommend that you do not include executing a WILD in those plans, lest you offer incentive to your dreaming mind to provide you with an NLD _about_ executing a WILD.  Just assume that your WILD will go just fine, and keep your goals related to the dream itself.





> Dreamy Movies are like Matrix or oh I don't know many - which others would you watch?



  Hmm.  There are so few, and yet I have such a hard time remembering them!  I think there are a couple of threads on DV that list them, if you are willing to suffer a search, but here's an off-the-cuff list of some that I remember, in order of preference:

What Dreams May Come
Avatar
Paprika
Vanilla Sky
The Matrix
A Nightmare on Elm Street
The Science of Sleep
Stay
The Last Wave
Waking Life
Dreamscape
eXistenz
The Black Swan

...Notice I left off _Inception_, because the misinformation it fosters tends to outweigh the cool dream scenery.  Also, _A Nightmare on Elm Street_ is a great dreaming movie, but maybe not the best thing to watch just before dreamtime :wink2: 






> I just realised its Wednesday  hope you had a good one!



  Pretty good, thanks!

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## Patience108

Thanks That's realy helpful - I am not much good at Visualisation so I am focusing more on the "Seeing it and experiencing it through my minds eye" I think it worked to get me a couple of Totm. ..But they lacked clarity and the space felt very small - I think this is why climbing the tree and seeing a view is proving challenging for me - I had no idea one had to literally create the "scene " in order to LD - it's a huge learning experience  :;-):  hope I make it through to the big time LD's one day!

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## Sageous

^^ There's no need to literally create the scene in your LD's; if I implied that myself, I didn't mean to.

Though you can do plenty of creating when lucid, you can certainly still rely on your dreaming mind to do the creative heavy lifting for you.  Above all, creating the scene in order to LD is absolutely not necessary; you can be fully lucid in a dream without creating a thing.  This BTW is why expectation/intention is so important in LD'ing: by building expectation throughout the day you are fueling your unconscious/dreaming mind with the things you would like to dream about so that it will create them come dreamtime for you to both recognize and enjoy.

Sorry if it was me who misled you about this, and if it wasn't me, be sure to tell whoever told you that you "must literally create the scene in order to be lucid" that they are wrong.

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## Patience108

Thanks, no body told me this its just what I started "picking up" probably my own mind complicating things a little,  no big problem just me getting to grips with the nessecities  ::alien:: 

Because things were a bit cramped in my first lds where I acompliched tasks - I started assuming one has to incubate everything about the scene in order to experience it...Silly really
I think I understand that's not how it works and that ones mind ( memory, self awareness etc) can and does actualy kick in showing you that you are totaly able to experience and create anything you like or not in LD's - I just need experience now - thanks for putting this straight tho - its alot todo with me getting to grips with the Power of my own mind _ susspect_ 

so is it like this :
It's the intention and expectation that fuels the LD and any kind of visualisation or incubation that one does it is clear that its through intention and expectation,those 2,that helps drive one towards the LD - in creating expectation and driving intention the LD is " going to happen!" ...  that's the point your making right? 

Not forgetting the Fundementals and getting them clear is what this is about for me here I think! ie - the visualisation and incubation is a part of the intention and expectation part not " creating a scene"- that happens once lucidity is there as one has full self awareness so can do or not do, create or not create as one wishes!

Sorry what's btw it's not on the ak list?

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## Sageous

> so is it like this :
> It's the intention and expectation that fuels the LD and any kind of visualisation or incubation that one does it is clear that its through intention and expectation,those 2,that helps drive one towards the LD - in creating expectation and driving intention the LD is " going to happen!" ...  *that's the point your making right*?



  Right!





> Sorry what's btw it's not on the ak list?



  BTW = By The Way...it figures that the only acronym I use is obsolete!

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## Nove13

Hi sageous,
Im using DILD as my induction method right now. But i just had several very short LDs these months. When i realized that i was dreaming , usually i rub my hands, but very often i wake up after that or went back to normal dream. I tried SAT for increase my awareness, but SAT needs times, i meant i shd stop and need more than 3 minutes to check everything.

So, after i read about your Reverse RC, im thinking to change my awareness exercise to Reverse RC, is it okay? 

sorry for my english, its not my daily language, thx btw

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## Sageous

^^ I think it would certainoy be okay.

RRC's can work just fine, whether you are attempting DILD's or WILD's, and RRC's can be handy, and potentially quick, tools for confirming and expanding your lucidity in a dream.  

Just be sure to do them regularly during waking hours, so that you can become comfortible enough with them to do them quickly but still sincerely during the dream.

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## Nove13

Thx for your reply. Another question, when i do rv rc, i usually imagine i see myself and everything arrounds me, it hard to explain it in english hahaha. For example, when i imagine im sitting on my chair 5 minutes ago, shd i imagine i sitting on that chair too or i see my self sitting from another view ? Thx, hope you understand my english

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## Sageous

^^ That is actually and interesting question, Nove13.

My first response is that you should try to remember yourself sitting in that chair just as you perceived yourself doing it 5 minutes ago.  You are, after all, trying to simply remember where you were and what you were doing; it is best to keep the memory as accurate as possible.  But then I got to thinking:

The point of the RRC is about considering your interaction with your local reality, past, present and future.  The actual details of that consideration are in the end not very important; what truly matters is the thought you give the answers to your three questions -- how deeply you_ wonder_ about those answers.  So, using a different perspective to remember how you were sitting should make no difference, because it is not the perspective you are wondering about, but the sitting itself.  In fact, remembering from another perspective might even help a bit, because it sort of loosens up the memory, leaving you to wonder more about the interaction that the actual specifics of the moment.

I hope that made sense to you, and I also hope I understood the question!  :wink2:

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## Nove13

Nice reply. Thx very much. Really help. N last question, may i set timer for this rc? Coz in dream we have no timer to remind our to do rc. Thx btw

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## Patience108

Yes that is interesting to ponder the rrc from different angles as i think it does give extra substance to the "wonder" of ones connection to ones local enviroment .. Sageouse, could you give some examples of your being present enough in your dream to do the rrc? Ta  :smiley:

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## Sageous

> ... last question, may i set timer for this rc? Coz in dream we have no timer to remind our to do rc. Thx btw



 Sure, set a timer (I always did).  

I personally think RC's and RRC's are far more important to do during the day than they are at night, because they help build the self-awareness you need to become lucid when dreaming.  By the same token: though I'm sure they occasionally do so, I do not have much faith in RC's (or RRC's) actually making you lucid during a NLD. You must already be a little lucid in a dream in order to do a RC that works; if you are not lucid at all, then you will simply _dream_ you are RC'ing (or RRC'ing), and the results will likely match your waking-life experience (i.e., a RC will fail, "proving" that you are not dreaming).  I for one have never in all my thousands of LD's used a RC to become lucid, though I have used them often to confirm lucidity.

So I guess the answer here is that a timer would be fine, because it s more important to do the RC's in waking-life.  Here's a thought: if you use a timer with, say, a vibration alarm, you can also use it when you sleep, in the hopes that when the timer goes off you will feel it in your dream and do a RC.






> ... Sageous, could you give some examples of your being present enough in your dream to do the rrc?



Not really.  I guess if the level of my lucidity is high enough to do a RRC in a LD, I can and might do one.  I know that sounds silly, but there really has never been a series of events in a dream that "caused" me to do a RRC, so to me specific examples just don't make sense.  It is more a tool for establishing my mindset in the dream, increasing self-awareness/lucidity, and maybe clarifying my perspective in case the dreamworld I'm in threatens to outshine my lucidity. But like any tool, I can use it when needed, and generally I am "present enough" when my lucidity is at a moderate to high level (meaning: self-awareness and access to memory are at waking-life levels).

That said, I can give you a generic example:  I would be in a dream, lucid, usually at a point where I just left my given dream scene (I do that a lot) and am drifting in an in-between place (usually dark or misty nothingness) looking forward to my next adventure.  One aspect of that looking can be doing a RRC, where I remember back past the last dream scene to being awake in bed, I examine where I am now, in this dark or misty place that I half-created by removing the "reality" of my previous dream, and then I look forward to the place I expect to be; I spend some time wondering about my participation in each phase, especially the "next few minutes" phase, and am empowered by the firm realization that the transactions between me and these dream places are completely my doing, and completely enfolded in nothing more than my own being.

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## Patience108

Wow, I realy thank you for that reply -  it makes me sure glad tobe learning the art of LDing - your answer is very inspiring and one to be pondered!

I see, the clear and unquestioned understanding of all having enfolded from yourself, your own being ,must be truly empowering, yes - can I ask when you involve in RRC in waking life does it reward you with "such" understanding a lot? Could you give a WL example too please?

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## Nove13

About RC, i almost never do RC in my lucid dream, i realize im dreaming suddenly, no weird thing or do RC, i just know im dreaming with no reason. So i thought it bcoz i train my awareness during waking life, thats why i asked about RRC.

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## Sageous

> I see, the clear and unquestioned understanding of all having enfolded from yourself, your own being ,must be truly empowering, yes - can I ask when you involve in RRC in waking life does it reward you with "such" understanding a lot? Could you give a WL example too please?



An RRC in waking-life is much different, because it allows me to consider that I am transacting with a reality that is _not_ me.  So the understanding it invokes, though important for self-awareness, is somewhat less profound or personally empowering than that of a RRC in the dream.  However, it can still be very interesting, because it allows you a moment to realize that you are present in reality, and involved in it... and yes, done correctly, waking-life RRC's will reward you with such an understanding pretty much every time, even when done at times that nothing seems to be happening.

A waking-life example?  Hmm.  I'm not sure if what I share will seem as significant to you as it does to me (RRC's are truly "you gotta be there" moments), but here is a recent one that I remember, when I took a pause standing at my front door, recently returned from the local market:  

 - I think about where I am right now, cold metal key in the door's lock, and wonder about my presence at the entrance to my house.  I feel the key, listen to the deadbolt click loudly as I turn it, and think about that sound as something newly created that will last far longer than the short time it spends with me.  I think of my feet crushing the welcome mat, and wonder if I'm disturbing the lives of any bugs making a home under it.  I feel a gentle puff of a breeze, and think about how it's only gotten to me after passing through a nearby tree that is still moving, and how its very shape has been changed by my blocking its passage.

- I remember my recent visit to the market, where I needed to pick up a few things like milk and eggs, and think about how those simple things are what keep me alive.  I remember a moment with the cashier that I barely noticed at time: she had given me back too much change, and I quickly let her know and handed back the extra cash.  She seemed pleased, and the next customer in line sort of sighed, though I'm not sure what that meant.  I wonder for a moment whether I made the cashier's day a little easier, because her register draw won't come up short, and she won't get into trouble, and wonder if I had some positive effect on that next customer, perhaps letting him know that other people do the right thing, rather than keep the free money.  I finally wonder that I barely noticed any of that at the time, given that my mind and body were in autopilot, just waiting quietly for the marketing chore to end.

- I think about where I will be in a few minutes.  After I put away my purchases, I will grab the coffee I bought at the market and park myself in front of the computer, presumably to do some writing, but knowing that I will likely spend time on DV writing posts and answering questions.  I think about my impact there, spreading my thoughts into the ether of the Web, possibly impacting other minds, possibly having my own mind changed by real live people I will likely never meet.





> About RC, i almost never do RC in my lucid dream, i realize im dreaming suddenly, no weird thing or do RC, i just know im dreaming with no reason. So i thought it bcoz i train my awareness during waking life, thats why i asked about RRC.



Sorry; I didn't notice the little "rv" in front of "RC" in your post, and thought you were talking about RC's.  But that doesn't really matter, because you can certainly replace "RC" with "RRC" in the post above; in fact, I think I tried to point out that I was talking about both RC's and RRC's, so my response would have been the same had I noticed the "rv."  Regardless, though, sorry for the confusion. 

All that aside:  Yes, you very likely might be becoming suddenly lucid in your dreams because of your daywork, which includes RRC's.  RRC's are far more valuable for developing your self-awareness during waking-life than they are for triggering lucidity during a LD; if you can bring some of that self-awareness with you into the dream, then you will indeed find yourself suddenly lucid thanks to RRC's you did during the day.

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## Nove13

Thx to you for shared it too. I will learn WILD after i have at least 1 LD in one week. I think WILD is higher lvl then DILD coz need more awareness to do. I will continue work with my awareness, n hope i can learn WILD soon.

Lil problem with RRC is, i stay on my chair in my store almost 12 hours a day. I just go out for lunch. So sometimes i think , where am i view minutes ago? i still here, in my chair. LOL. But its cool, i still try to think what did i do and whats interaction has happened between me and things n workers arround me.

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## Buckey

This may have been asked before but I'm not entirely sure if I would like to sift through hundreds of posts to see if it has ... so I apologize in advance.

What if the majority of my waking day is spent in the same environment, at a computer? How do I make each self-awareness session that I do every hour meaningful, when I'll probably be asking my self the same questions and providing the same routine answers as before in my ever unchanging environment?

Edit: I also wanted to ask you, what exactly do you mean by focusing on _local_ things? Would local be considered the mailman arriving and dropping of mail when I go to check hours later?

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## Sageous

^^ Yes, this has been asked a few times, but I'm happy to answer it again! 

When you are sitting at your computer, especially (but not only) if you are on the internet, you may well be having more interactions with your local reality than you might think.  If you are working, then your local reality is changing constantly due to your influence... even the exact same space has different things happening to it all the time, because you are there; you need only notice them.

Include in your considerations not just where you were or where you will be physically (especially if it isn't changing), but what you were doing, who you were talking to, perhaps the significance of the work you just did on those who will use it, etc -- these things are variables that are always in flux, and will alter even the most stable of environments.  RRC's are ultimately about asserting your presence in your local reality, and that presence is never exactly the same as it was an hour earlier...and if you think it is, then you might need to do a bit more digging. 

By local reality I mean that it is not a good idea to imagine grandiose things like your place in the entire universe, as that tends to diminish your presence.  Keep your survey to your immediate reality (i.e., if you're doing a RRC while sitting on your couch in front of the TV, think about things like the dent you are making in the couch right now, and how you might be warming a spot that the next person might notice later when they sit in it, and maybe about the influence the TV show is having on you -- or how you can change the TV's very nature just by flipping a channel).  And yes, I would consider that mailman example a good one.

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## d3nd3

Would it be better to practise self awareness during the day with the mindset of staying self-aware for as long as possible and not straying away from it at all. I imagine this idea as being, 'self-aware without resistance'.

Or contrary would it be better to dive in and out of self-awareness, doing things which I know will zone me out, (lose myself) as a form of resistance training? To lose self awareness, so only to bring myself back into self awareness??

Im thinking the later method might be more valuable to lucid dreaming since whilst i am dreaming(nld), i am totally not-self aware, so would need the strength similar to that pulling me out of when im zoned out rather than being self aware because i already was.

I hope i make enough sense.



Also : 

When performing the WILD, when you are lieing down still, should you have your mind in a self-aware mindset? Like how it feels after performing a RRC? Is that required? or only the mantra required?

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## Sageous

> Would it be better to practise self awareness during the day with the mindset of staying self-aware for as long as possible and not straying away from it at all. I imagine this idea as being, 'self-aware without resistance'.
> 
> Or contrary would it be better to dive in and out of self-awareness, doing things which I know will zone me out, (lose myself) as a form of resistance training? To lose self awareness, so only to bring myself back into self awareness??
> 
> Im thinking the later method might be more valuable to lucid dreaming since whilst i am dreaming(nld), i am totally not-self aware, so would need the strength similar to that pulling me out of when im zoned out rather than being self aware because i already was.



It sounds like you already answered your question, which makes it one of my favorite variety!  

Yes, the latter is probably the best choice, primarily for the reason you suggest, but also because it is much easier to summon self-awareness when needed or desired than it is to try to maintain it constantly... in a sense, constant self-awareness might be a path of _greater_ resistance in practice (if not on paper) in the long run, because you would be swimming upstream against the strong natural currents to avoid self-awareness for a very long time while developing the ability to maintain that "resistance-free" self-awareness.  Developing an ability to occasionally summon self-awareness is much easier, and is really all that is required to successfully LD... and I do like the idea that this ability would be most helpful when facing the presence of extreme auto-pilot in a NLD.  

So, though it would be a great thing to achieve self-awareness and then not stray from it at all, indefinitely, reaching that level of achievement would ultimately require more effort than would summoning self-awareness when you desire it. And, as you correctly guessed, that ability to summon does come in very handy during a dream. 

All that said, let me make something else clear:  if you've _already done_ the upstream swim, and are capable of being self-aware all the time, then forget everything I said.  If you are fully self-aware all day, then you will very likely be fully (or at least somewhat) self-aware in your dreams as well.  In other words, if self-awareness is your default state of consciousness, then lucidity will probably be a given, rather than a goal.

*tl;dr:*  The second choice is correct, for the reason you state ... though if you are able to maintain self-awareness constantly, WILD's will be a snap.





> Also : 
> When performing the WILD, when you are lieing down still, should you have your mind in a self-aware mindset? Like how it feels after performing a RRC? Is that required? or only the mantra required?



I've never really thought about this, to tell you the truth; you may be pointing out something I've always taken for granted.  

I think that, during a successful WILD, you will, like it or not, _always_ have your self-awareness on hand, because that self-awareness sort of defines or dictates your state of mind while attempting a WILD.  In other words, you _must be self-aware_ in order to maintain waking-life self-awareness throughout a WILD dive; if you lack self-awareness and allow auto-pilot to switch on, then you will exit your WILD and fall asleep normally.  

The feeling doesn't need to be just like that provided by a RRC, though that would certainly help; all you need is a grasp, even a tenuous one, on your sense of self during a WILD -- just enough to be able to remember that everything going on is _your_ passage into _your_ dream, and that the things going on around you (as well as the dream you enter) are all a part of you.  The mantra, I think, is a requirement, because it can provide the necessary handhold you need to maintain that sense of self throughout the WILD dive. 

All is not totally lost if you lose self-awareness during a WILD, though, because your focus (and that mantra) can help you retrieve it when the dream begins, and you can enjoy a DILD instead.  I personally think this may happen more often than WILD's do, BTW, as so many accounts of WILDs include a moment of "blankness" followed by the sudden appearance of the dream.

*tl;dr:* Yes. Not necessarily, but it would be nice. No. Yes.

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## d3nd3

Okay thanks for that elaborate answer, just what i needed.

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## d3nd3

Sageous, if self awareness == lucidity doesnt that mean that practising/increasing self awareness leads to difficulty going to sleep?  And if so, how does one temporarily decrease self awareness?

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## Sageous

^^ No, I don't think that the presence of self-awareness would impede falling asleep at all. Self-awareness may equal lucidity, but it does not equal being physically awake.

I know that sounds odd, but it is true; it actually _must_ be true in our context, or else WILD's would likely be virtually impossible.  

Self-awareness is merely the awareness of your presence in the moment and of your interaction with your local reality.  If the moment you happen to be in is one where your physical body is falling asleep, and "You" are present in it, your physical body will still fall asleep just as it normally would -- except of course that you are there to consciously witness the transition from wake to sleep.  In a sense, your physical state (awake/asleep, in this case) is operating as it always would, but when your conscious state includes self-awareness, you are able to transcend the normal mental functions that accompany falling asleep, allowing you to be present throughout the transition to sleep while your brain and body do their things.

Hmm...This seemed a lot simpler in my head; let me try a different tack:  

I often say that the paradox of lucid dreaming is that you are awake while you are asleep, and I wonder now if that is a wise thing to say.  This is because in a physical sense you are definitely not awake when lucid; you are enjoying the presence of your waking-life self-awareness in the dream.  Your mind and body really are asleep by every definition, except that "You" have stepped above the rules of sleep by being self-aware in the dream -- by_ knowing_ you are dreaming, and that the entire dream is "You."  So being awake while you are asleep is more of a metaphor than a description, I guess.  Also, including "waking-life" in the phrase "waking-life self-awareness" denotes that you are the same "You," consciously speaking, that you are during waking-life, and shouldn't imply that you are awake... maybe I'll need to dump the "waking-life" bit in the future as well, because it might be more confusing than useful.  

So there is no need to worry about decreasing your self-awareness in order to fall asleep...in fact, I highly recommend that you do everything you can to maintain as high a level of waking-life self-awareness as possible throughout your WILD dive, because the process of falling asleep has a tendency to decrease your self-awareness for you, given that your natural state, especially when falling asleep, is one that does not include self-awareness. 

That didn't work either; how about a "tl;dr:" then:

*tl;dr:*The presence of your waking-life self-awareness during a WILD should not interfere with falling asleep, because it does not interact with the regular process of falling asleep -- it _witnesses_ it.  So there is no need to worry about decreasing your self-awareness in order to fall asleep.



*All that said:*  I can see how you might have come to the conclusion that you reached, and I have a feeling it might represent a real problem for many WILDers.  It has become common to assume that possessing waking-life self-awareness is the same thing as being awake; but it is not.  After all, we can spend our days wide awake but never self-aware, right?  In fact, the default setting for waking-life consciousness is one of auto-pilot, without a hint of self-awareness.  But because we make that assumption, we try as hard as we can to stay awake during a WILD dive, rather than simply letting our bodies fall asleep naturally while we remain self-aware/lucid throughout the transition.  Ironically, this struggle to stay awake tempts/leads us to abandon self-awareness and either fall asleep normally or wake up fully, depending on how hard we tried to stay awake (or how tired we were). This assumption also explains why I find myself so often telling dreamers that they must fall asleep in order to WILD (or lucid dream at all), because, by assuming they must be awake, dreamers leave out the most important component of dreaming: sleep.

Okay, I'm more rambling and thinking aloud than I am answering your question at this point, so I'll leave it at that.  The entire answer to your question, I think, rests in the "tl;dr:" sentences above; the rest, I suppose, is fluff.

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## d3nd3

I get ya.  What i really meant with my question though , is, :
Does self-awareness make it more difficult to experience 'normal sleep' ( the sleep without being an observer ).  Because although yes, later in the night when we are practising our WBTB, WILDS we certainly do not mind being an observer, in the first few hours of the night it can be a dim, dull experience often with aches, pains, itches, heat sweats etc and to be honest with you, i never know if i am really asleep or not during that time.

I dont know if i am asleep-with-awareness or awake-with-awareness.  I actually did this for well over an hour last night, because i was in a crazy mood thinking i could observe the entire night just for the fun of it.  Ah yes, another major reason i was doing this is because i wanted to learn to sleep on my back, since i've been having lower back pain from sleeping on my front.  Yet as i thought would happen, i wasn't able to get to 'normal-sleep' on my back, and entered this 'dont know if im asleep state'. And btw my stamina didnt last as long as i thought it would, at 1.5 hour i simply rolled over went to sleep, my mind thought sleeping on back was impossible and a bad idea and wanted the 'quick fix'.  But I kinda wish i might had persevered, surely its possible i can sleep on my back?

Yea so i hope you understand the real context of my question now, that I dont think everyone always wants to be lucid at any given moment of sleep?(eg. the first few hours) And would practising self-awareness interfere with being able to do this 'normal sleep'?

EDIT: and a further question about your RRC's.. Do you apply the 'how do i effect world , and world effects me' question to each point in time? or only the present? the 5 mins ago and 5 mins in future can be easier questions?

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## d3nd3

I have another idea for increasing self awareness, looking in a mirror.  If i do that often enough through-out the day, do you think it might benefit my lucidity rate?

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## Sageous

> I get ya.  What i really meant with my question though , is, :
> Does self-awareness make it more difficult to experience 'normal sleep' ( the sleep without being an observer ).  Because although yes, later in the night when we are practising our WBTB, WILDS we certainly do not mind being an observer, in the first few hours of the night it can be a dim, dull experience often with aches, pains, itches, heat sweats etc and to be honest with you, i never know if i am really asleep or not during that time.
> 
> I dont know if i am asleep-with-awareness or awake-with-awareness.  I actually did this for well over an hour last night, because i was in a crazy mood thinking i could observe the entire night just for the fun of it.  Ah yes, another major reason i was doing this is because i wanted to learn to sleep on my back, since i've been having lower back pain from sleeping on my front.  Yet as i thought would happen, i wasn't able to get to 'normal-sleep' on my back, and entered this 'dont know if im asleep state'. And btw my stamina didnt last as long as i thought it would, at 1.5 hour i simply rolled over went to sleep, my mind thought sleeping on back was impossible and a bad idea and wanted the 'quick fix'.  But I kinda wish i might had persevered, surely its possible i can sleep on my back?
> 
> Yea so i hope you understand the real context of my question now, that I dont think everyone always wants to be lucid at any given moment of sleep?(eg. the first few hours) And would practising self-awareness interfere with being able to do this 'normal sleep'?



In spite of the new context (which, yes, it would have been nice to know about in the first place, because I would have been able to say a lot less), my answer is pretty much the same: self-awareness will not interfere with the sleep process, at _any time_ during the night.  Self-awareness still doesn't equal wakefulness, even during the early stages of sleep. So pretty much everything I said above still stands, still applies, and I hope you don't mind if I don't bother repeating it.  

If you wish to maintain your self-awareness throughout a night's sleep, be advised that it is not that easy, is something that could take years to properly achieve, and is very likely not going to happen if you try it on a whim, or with some other goal (like sleeping on your back) in mind.  If you are truly interested in doing this, you might start by looking into Sivason's DVA Dream Yoga class, which is the first step toward the world of sleep yoga, which is the best system I know of for staying self-aware all night available.  I personally find sleep yoga practice an outstanding goal, so I hope you stay interested, and are willing to be patient.

Though it sounds like the early stages of your night's sleep are very busy, what with all those "aches, pains, itches, heat sweats etc," you shouldn't have had much difficulty telling the difference between being awake or asleep -- once you're in, it is pretty obvious.  Also, once you are asleep, all those physical issues are left behind, and you wouldn't notice them. So I have a feeling you were never quite asleep throughout your effort.

Yes, you can certainly learn to sleep on your back... but I would recommend doing so on nights when you are not also trying to maintain self-awareness.  Get your body accustomed to the new processes involved with sleeping on your back _before_ you try other things at the same time.  In other words, hold off on the self-awareness practice until after you are able to fall asleep on your back without difficulty.





> EDIT: and a further question about your RRC's.. Do you apply the 'how do i effect world , and world effects me' question to each point in time? or only the present? the 5 mins ago and 5 mins in future can be easier questions?



Yes, it's best to ask at each point in time.  Also, I've since revised that "5 minutes" to a "short time," or maybe 15 minutes.  Look back and forward far enough that there is a reasonable difference between where you were, where you are, and where you will be.





> I have another idea for increasing self awareness, looking in a mirror.  If i do that often enough through-out the day, do you think it might benefit my lucidity rate?



I doubt it.  

Perhaps paradoxically, self-awareness has very little to do with things like your physical appearance.  When you look in a mirror, all you see is a reflection of your face, and not "You."  You can -- and probably do, all the time -- look into a mirror without any self-awareness present or generated.  In fact, I would guess that looking into a mirror might distract you from becoming self-aware, because your reflection heightens the priority of the things from which you are trying to step away.  I suppose you could use looking in the mirror as a reality check, but I don't think that is what you were asking.

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## d3nd3

I thought that if I'm pracitising increasing my self-awareness during the day then my self-awareness is 'higher' whether I like it or not? Do you think this is true or not? 

If its true then even if I don't try to maintain awareness, it will still be high.  Am I looking at the self-awareness incorrectly?  Is it not possible to raise it up that much and will the default state always be low awareness so that you can easily go to sleep without being aware?  

Maybe I'm wanting to know if having strong self-awareness at any given time requires intention?  And so then void of intention would equal normal self-awareness(or none).  I'm worried that I can't turn it off if i practise too hard... sorry if im dragging this on too much.

EDIT:
Sageous i'm just really interested and eager to know more about what self-awareness is.  For so long i have been lost as to what could be the cause of lucidity, without knowing a cause i could not hone in anything in order to increase the liklyhood.  Then i found your guide and the task of achieving lucidity feels completely different, I feel like i know what im chasing, abit.  Thats why i want to know more about the self-awareness because then i know more about what i am chasing.

Is there a feeling to knowing if you are self-aware enough to be lucid whilst going to sleep, albeit an indescribable one?

How does practise of self-awareness pay off?  I sound really obsessed with self-awareness and I think its because i like to be in control... only with this chasing self-awareness thing it feels still like the thing i'm chasing is invisible.  Its real, but invisible.. so I'm having trouble giving myself feedback on my progress, you know what I mean?  How do i stay committed whilst knowing so little about how self-awareness practise is affecting me and my chances of lucidity?





> Yea so i hope you understand the real context of my question now, that I dont think everyone always wants to be lucid at any given moment of sleep?(eg. the first few hours) And would practising self-awareness interfere with being able to do this 'normal sleep'?



I think this remains unanswered btw, when i type normal sleep, I actually meant 'sleep without enough self-awareness'.  So i rephrase the question now : Would practising self-awareness during the day affect your chances of being able to fall off to sleep at night time in a non-aware fashion? (My prediction is that it might, depending on if practising of self-awareness builds up an inner strength which is always on, or whether self-awareness always requires intent/thought and can be controlled easily at will)

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## Sageous

^^ Though I admire your enthusiasm, d3nd3, I think you might be looking for too much in all this.  

Self-awareness is a state of mind, and not a magic bullet.  Though, at least in my opinion, self-awareness is equal to lucidity, it is not a commodity that you can get or have that fuels lucid dreams.  Nor is it an energy of some sort that you can have with you to induce lucidity.  It is simply a sense of your presence in the moment, with an understanding that you have an effect on everything around you, and everything around you has an effect on you. Developing that sense can take years; developing that sense to a point that it stays on constantly can take a lifetime.  Please try not to look at it as a shortcut, or a cause of lucidity that can be harnessed.  And, again, please don't look at self-awareness as an impediment to sleep, because it isn't.

That said, I'll go around one more time with this, though I hope you'll understand if my responses pretty much match what I've already said:





> I thought that if I'm pracitising increasing my self-awareness during the day then my self-awareness is 'higher' whether I like it or not? Do you think this is true or not?



No, this is not true.  Self-awareness will tend to be a state of mind that you must always summon, unless you manage to change your permanent state of consciousness to one of constant self-awareness.  The funny thing is that, if after years of practice you reach that state, there will not be a "like it or not" situation, ever, because the permanent presence of your self-awareness will be a good thing, a transcendental improvement, and not something you will not want to have around. 





> If its true then even if I don't try to maintain awareness, it will still be high.  Am I looking at the self-awareness incorrectly?  Is it not possible to raise it up that much and will the default state always be low awareness so that you can easily go to sleep without being aware?



Yes, I believe you are looking at the self-awareness incorrectly.  Let me try one more time by repeating what I've already said at least twice:  *Self-awareness does not equal being awake.* It also does not equal being alert, or even aware, in the natural sense (i.e., being aware of your surroundings).  Even if you one day manage to achieve a high, consistent level of self-awareness, this state will not effect your body's ability to fall asleep.  Sleep and self-awareness have nothing to do with each other, and you will be able to go to sleep will self-awareness active.  This of course counts for any residual or weak self-awareness you might have from practicing it during the day.





> Maybe I'm wanting to know if having strong self-awareness at any given time requires intention?  And so then void of intention would equal normal self-awareness(or none).  I'm worried that I can't turn it off if i practise too hard... sorry if im dragging this on too much.



For now, and probably for a pretty long time ahead, yes, strong (or weak, for that matter) self-awareness will require intention -- and attention, and focus.  If you must worry, and you shouldn't, you should be more concerned about maintaining self-awareness than about whether you can turn it off.  And yes, if you lose self-awareness you will return to your normal state.





> EDIT:
> Sageous i'm just really interested and eager to know more about what self-awareness is.  For so long i have been lost as to what could be the cause of lucidity, without knowing a cause i could not hone in anything in order to increase the liklyhood.  Then i found your guide and the task of achieving lucidity feels completely different, I feel like i know what im chasing, abit.  Thats why i want to know more about the self-awareness because then i know more about what i am chasing.



That's all fine, but instead of chasing a cause, why not seek a goal?  If you can come to understand that self-awareness is lucidity, and also come to understand that self-awareness is a state of mind, and not some sort of lucidity trigger or technique, you might be better able to set a goal of being able to gather your self-awareness as easily as you can.  

I urge you to try not to look too deeply into this stuff.  Knowing specifically how lucidity works would be a great thing, but spending your time spinning your wheels chasing its absolute cause will only clog your mind.  Instead, simply understand that a strong sense of self, an ability to summon self-awareness, is instrumental to successful LD'ing.  There really is no more to it.  Stop chasing, and do.





> Is there a feeling to knowing if you are self-aware enough to be lucid whilst going to sleep, albeit an indescribable one?



None that I've ever been aware of.

But it doesn't matter, because if you are self-aware enough to be lucid while going to sleep, then you will likely be lucid in your dream.  





> How does practise of self-awareness pay off?



The payoff, again, is that self-awareness equals lucidity.  Period.





> I sound really obsessed with self-awareness and I think its because i like to be in control... only with this chasing self-awareness thing it feels still like the thing i'm chasing is invisible.  Its real, but invisible.. so I'm having trouble giving myself feedback on my progress, you know what I mean?  How do i stay committed whilst knowing so little about how self-awareness practise is affecting me and my chances of lucidity?



You probably already know everything you need to know about self-awareness,  d3nd3, but want there to be something more.  There is no self-awareness "thing," invisible or not, and no reward (like tangible feedback) for your progress.  You are fully capable of being self-aware right now; the only feedback you will need are the moments of "presence" that you allow yourself to have, and your commitment should be focused on achieving your goals (i.e., becoming lucid in your dreams), and not  on knowing about the bits along the way to those goals.





> I think this remains unanswered btw, when i type normal sleep, I actually meant 'sleep without enough self-awareness'.  So i rephrase the question now : Would practising self-awareness during the day affect your chances of being able to fall off to sleep at night time in a non-aware fashion? (My prediction is that it might, depending on if practising of self-awareness builds up an inner strength which is always on, or whether self-awareness always requires intent/thought and can be controlled easily at will)



You can rephrase this question as many times as you like,  d3nd3, and my answer will still be the same: No.  

Self-awareness is not the same as being awake, and has nothing to do with the falling asleep process.  You can be fully self-aware and totally sleepy at the same time... if you couldn't then WILD would not work, and you would wake up every time you become lucid.  This is true whether you've summoned self-awareness or have managed to maintain it constantly.  I hope that you'll take a moment to try to understand this.

I hope all this made sense to you, this time.  I'm not sure if I can explain it all any other way.

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## d3nd3

Alrite Sageous. I will humbly go and "do".
Btw, do you know anything about how DILD's work, i'm a bit confused about them... Like if memory is turned off in dream, how can you do critical thinking to realise something is odd? And I don't think i ever do reality checks in dreams, even if i practise them in waking, I'm just a different person in my dreams, a person of my past most often, reliving old situations, old friends with my old mindset.
Cheers again Sageous, i really appreciate the amount of time you are giving me!

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## Sageous

^^  If you want a thorough explanation of how DILD works, you might read (or re-read, as it were) LaBerge's _Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming,_ as much of that book covers the theory and mechanics of DILD, including extensive discussion of MILD, which is the technique that makes DILD work.  That said, here are a couple of my thoughts on this that might stray a bit from LaBerge's work:

First, I do not believe that you _can_ realize that something is odd in a NLD.  As you already noted, nothing in a dream can be odd, because during a NLD you cannot remember that some things cannot exist in the reality of your dream.  For instance, you might dream that you are driving your car underwater, and have no problem with it: driving on the seabed seems just fine to you, because doing so has been presented as fact by your dreaming mind, and that fact is backed up, if necessary, by a fictitious history and false memories that confirm the sense in underwater driving.   The only ways that you can spot the odd is by already being slightly lucid, perhaps slightly suspicious, of the "reality" of the dream, or by responding to a prospective memory (remembering to remember) thanks to your MILD practice.  

The same goes for RC's:  I don't believe that RC's can _make_ you lucid.  Instead, when they work properly in a dream, they are doing so as tools for _confirming_ that you are dreaming, meaning that you _already had_ a notion that you were dreaming, that you were _already slightly lucid_.  On the other hand, doing a RC when you are not already slightly lucid will result in either a negative result that implies that you are not dreaming, or in a positive result that leads you into a false lucid dream, wherein you dream about being lucid without ever being self-aware at all.  

In all honesty, I think that the myth that RC's "make" you lucid has done some real damage to the efforts of beginning LD'ers.  It has become almost a given that if you do a RC in a dream you will become lucid, so people just do RC's, usually by rote, during the day assuming that's all they have to do to have DILDs.  What they're missing is the mindset necessary to be lucid enough already to question whether they are dreaming.  That mindset -- that ability to do a little accurate critical thinking in a dream -- is brought about by doing things like buiding expectation, setting intention, and generating prospective memory in the dream, all of which require more day work than just doing RC's or observing the odd. [On a side note, we do critical thinking all the time in dreams when we're not lucid; the trouble is, that thinking is clouded by the fraudulent information generated by our dreaming mind, a lack of access to memory, and a generally pure here&now perspective in the dream.]

Dreamsigns fall into this category as well, BTW.  If you are not at all lucid in a dream, you will not recognize dreamsigns.  You must already be suspicious that you are dreaming before you can be suspicious of a dreamsign.

*tl;dr:* So I guess the bottom line here is that your questions about DILD are valid; RC's and spotting the odd can only work _after_ you are slightly lucid.  So the trick with DILD is to have a lucid mindset in place when you go to sleep, and the only truly effective technique for DILD is MILD, because it involves planting prospective memories in your dream that will help you to remember to remember.    That mindset and MILD technique are both established by daywork that involves more than just doing RC's or questioning the odd.

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## Marzyciel

Hey Sageous, thanks for all the elaborate input you been giving! I have a few fairly technical questions regarding WILD attempts: I can relax, focus on my intent, put my body to sleep, but I've only gotten to REM stage a couple of times (I feel my eyes moving rapidly and a vibratory sensation in my body). The thing is, when I'm attempting WILDs, I keep waiting for this transition to happen, and it demoralizes me quite a bit when I don't get it. Is it truly necessary for me to 'feel' in my body these sensations of REM in order to have a WILD?

Another quick question: sometimes, I start to have dreams/fragments of dreams in 'the back of my mind' so to speak, but never in my first person vision. I try to connect both, but it seems I can only choose to stare at empty darkness, or get lost in these imagethoughts without it trully become a dream. I feel that there are two reasons for that: 1) I do not feel disconected enough from my body, it always seems as if I'm having a more profound daydream and 2) To see images in my eyes from a WILD attempt seems like something I cannot mentally trespass, like a block or sticking point (a perfect analogy would be the four-minute mile: until 1954 nobody could run 1 mile in 4 minutes, but when Roger Bannister managed to do it, suddenly EVERYBODY could do it). Any comments on that? 

Thanks in advance!

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## Sageous

^^ First, Marzyciel, I highly recommend that you take a look at the DVA WILD class to which this thread is attached, if you haven't already.  I think you might find it helpful.  Now:





> ...I can relax, focus on my intent, put my body to sleep, but I've only gotten to REM stage a couple of times (I feel my eyes moving rapidly and a vibratory sensation in my body). The thing is, when I'm attempting WILDs, I keep waiting for this transition to happen, and it demoralizes me quite a bit when I don't get it. Is it truly necessary for me to 'feel' in my body these sensations of REM in order to have a WILD?



There is no need, ever, to concern yourself about "getting" to REM, much less feel sensations of REM.  For that matter, I'm not even sure there _are_ sensations of REM, so looking for them might be not just a distraction from your WILD dive, but a trip down a path that leads away from rather than toward your dream.  

REM is called REM because rapid eye movement can be objectively observed (by other people) during it.  Rapid eye movement, as far as I know, occurs not on its own but as a result of your dream:  During REM your eyes move because they are following the action of a dream -- in other words, if you are experiencing REM, then you are also dreaming.  As a sort of extension to that, it would be very unlikely that you will feel your eyes moving during a dream/REM, because your eyes are naturally following imagery and action in your dream, so no unusual movement would gain your attention.  

So I'm not sure what is happening when your eyes move as you describe, but it might have nothing at all to do with REM.  That movement, like the vibratory sensation you mentioned, are probably just some of the noise that can be experienced during a WILD, and you can, and should, ignore them.  I'm not sure where you heard that it is truly necessary to experience body sensations like moving eyes and vibrations in order to complete a WILD transition, but in my opinion whoever said that is mistaken, and their advice best forgotten.

The bottom line on this is no, it is not necessary _at all_, much less truly necessary, to feel these sensations in order to WILD.  There is also no need to concern yourself about "getting" to REM, because REM comes with the dream... concern yourself only with getting to the dream, and your WILD will pass much more smoothly. 





> Another quick question: sometimes, I start to have dreams/fragments of dreams in 'the back of my mind' so to speak, but never in my first person vision. I try to connect both, but it seems I can only choose to stare at empty darkness, or get lost in these imagethoughts without it trully become a dream. I feel that there are two reasons for that: 1) I do not feel disconected enough from my body, it always seems as if I'm having a more profound daydream and 2) To see images in my eyes from a WILD attempt seems like something I cannot mentally trespass, like a block or sticking point (a perfect analogy would be the four-minute mile: until 1954 nobody could run 1 mile in 4 minutes, but when Roger Bannister managed to do it, suddenly EVERYBODY could do it). Any comments on that?



These "dreams/fragments" are very likely dreamlets, which are sort of random snippets of dream imagery that come and go as you straddle the fence between wake and sleep.  They aren't really dreams, and, unless you have learned to use them to help you form your dream, it is probably best to ignore them, or at most give them a passing nod as mileposts on your way to the actual dream.  In general, paying attention to dreamlets, or trying to connect to them, could prove to be an unnecessary distraction at least, and, because they occur before you have fallen asleep, they might lead you to either waking up fully or falling asleep non-lucidly,  So leaving them be might be best, for now. 

As long as I'm here, here are a couple of quick thoughts about the  two reasons you list:

1) There is no need to feel disconnected from your body during a WILD, just as there is no need to feel connected to your body during a WILD.  The only connection you should concern yourself with during a WILD is the one you're going to make with your dream; the rest of the stuff simply does not matter.  Also, as long as you maintain your focus on the upcoming dream, there is nothing wrong with feeling like you're in a profound daydream along the way.  

2) If you can learn to _not care about_ seeing images in your eyes (or anywhere) during your WILD's, I think that block you describe will quickly fade away.  To use your analogy: Roger Bannister was first to do something that was inevitable; he didn't so much break open a barrier for others as he just happened to be the first guy on a path that mile runners were bound to travel. Also, he was probably always running just as fast as he could, and didn't give much thought to the 4 minute barrier; something to think about there, I think.

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## Marzyciel

Interesting, I was thinking LD is a place you go inside your mind, kinda like a road to some far away place. But your take on LD seems to be that it is in and of itself a state of mind, although a very distinct  one from our daily lives. If that is so, all those aspects in your WILD classes (intent, mantras, RRCs) are not just intruments to maintain one aware of dreaming, or create willpower to dream, but also direct instruments to fine tune your mind to that mental frequency...in that case, focusing on noises, vibrations, dreamlets and such are extremely counterproductive to dreaming, because they take you away from that mind state. Am I correct? In any case, thanks for the input, in my next WILD sessions I'll let those distractions simply dissipate instead of trying to read too much into them.

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## Sageous

^^ Are you correct in your assessment?  Sure.

Though I'd probably take issue with some of what you described (i.e. since lucidity equals the presence of your waking-life self-awareness in a dream, I would say that the state of mind necessary for LD'ing is the same as the self-aware state of mind in waking-life), it seems that you've nicely nailed my point of view on all this, as well as what I'm trying to teach in the class.

Thanks!

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## oneironautics

Hi Just a newbie in Lding, Recently read through the whole wild sessions, and found the really helpful, my sleeping schedule is a bit of a mess at the moment because of baby, but it was super helpful anyway and one day i will have the chance to properly try them out, i have started wondering alot about how memory works maybe there are some good articles about them somebody could recommend? 
Have been working on some reality, or maybe memory checks.  
For example going to coffee shop with a friend and glancing around to see what other people in the shop might look like ,  or when i go for a walk taking notice of people there clothes and hair and tatoos and shoes etc etc etc. quite interesting what i found when i really started looking (green socks and pink shoes, what?) ,, and then after we leave will try and remember all the little details, and then a few hours later might try again.
 It has made me wonder about peoples memory,  right now living in the city center about 300000 people live here, everyday when i leave the kids for school we will meet at least 300 people on the way, looking at all these people,  will probably take alot of memory space or will my mind just block them out as useless information? Also theres more traffic and information all over the place always alot of information to take in, if my brain was taking all this in, will i be more forgetfull or lacking in other areas? 
 so on the other hand my sister is living out on the country side no traffic and only flowers or houses to look at, going too the store she might meet 30 people, will she have a better memory then me later in life, because she is not filling her mind with all this information everyday?  Or maybe my mind will be more trained? 
anyway thought it was interesting probably some studies about somewhere. 
also have been reading a text somewhere and after 5 min trying to visualize the word , and again after an hour see if i remember colour and everything.
Thanks for your time.

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## Sageous

> ... i have started wondering alot about how memory works maybe there are some good articles about them somebody could recommend?



 Unfortunately I don't.  Most of my knowledge in this department comes from the pre-internet era, via things like my education, experience, and many conversations with a couple of experts over the years.  Sorry!





> Have been working on some reality, or maybe memory checks. 
> For example going to coffee shop with a friend and glancing around to see what other people in the shop might look like ,  or when i go for a walk taking notice of people there clothes and hair and tatoos and shoes etc etc etc. quite interesting what i found when i really started looking (green socks and pink shoes, what?) ,, and then after we leave will try and remember all the little details, and then a few hours later might try again.



That is an excellent exercise. It's not necessarily a reality check, but it does seem an interesting way to remind yourself about how many details your brain disregards as you wander through your waking-life reality.  Such a reminder can be very helpful in developing your ability to pay attention to your local surroundings, including your surroundings during a dream.  Such a reminder can also help with your self-awareness practice, if you are able to notice your Self among all those details (given that the Self seems to be the most commonly missed detail in waking life!  :wink2: ) Plus, of course, with enough effort you might just be able to do a little rewiring that enables your brain to notice and retain more information than it currently does, which will be helpful to your overall awareness, and perhaps even your general learning and recall processes.





> It has made me wonder about peoples memory,  right now living in the city center about 300000 people live here, everyday when i leave the kids for school we will meet at least 300 people on the way, looking at all these people,  will probably take alot of memory space or will my mind just block them out as useless information? Also theres more traffic and information all over the place always alot of information to take in, if my brain was taking all this in, will i be more forgetfull or lacking in other areas?
> so on the other hand my sister is living out on the country side no traffic and only flowers or houses to look at, going too the store she might meet 30 people, will she have a better memory then me later in life, because she is not filling her mind with all this information everyday?  Or maybe my mind will be more trained?



Here's how I see this process working:

As you move through your local reality, your senses absorb far more information than is really necessary for you to successfully navigate that movement, including making sense of what it is you're navigating. So, instead of flooding your perception with all the information received and ultimately confusing you or, worse, allowing you to pay attention to things that should not be a priority (i.e., stopping in the street to focus on the words stamped on a manhole cover rather than notice a bus hurtling toward you), your brain discards most of the things you see, hear, smell, etc, leaving just those things that matter the most... meaning, yes, that your brain does indeed discard a whole lot of what it deems useless information so that you can stay focused on what matters.   

Ultimately, you will be supplied as much information as you can consciously handle or need, regardless of the amount of stimulus around you; and so too would your country-living sister:  Believe it or not, you are probably retaining about the same amount of useful information that your sister does as she moves through the countryside.  In other words, you might, say, pass 300 people on your city street, but you will likely only retain a memory of a couple of them, if any, and the complex activity around you will quickly become a blur of generality. Also, believe or not as well, there is just as much stuff going on in the country as in the city, if not occasionally more; it's just different stuff.  A single tree or a field of flowers probably has far more individual points of stimulus than even the busiest of streets, not to mention that your sister probably knows many of the people she is passing, so her brain might be retaining _more_ information than yours does as it passes anonymous pedestrians that won't expect you to remember that you saw them that day. 

So, no, I wouldn't expect that your mind would be better trained than your sister's because you live in a city, nor would her brain have more available space for future memory.  Our brains do an outstanding job of filtering useless information and retaining just what we need (or what its programmed to assume we need, anyway), and more stimulus simply means more filtering.

That said, if you train yourself to retain far more information than is deemed necessary by your memory's default settings, I think you might ultimately find yourself able to remember more later in life, rather than less.  This is because you are not only teaching yourself to remember more, but also expanding your brain's capacity for memory retention (this is why we study, BTW)... and don't worry about filling it with too much information: as far as I know the brain's limits for memory have yet to be challenged, much less exceeded.





> ...also have been reading a text somewhere and after 5 min trying to visualize the word , and again after an hour see if i remember colour and everything.



 This is another excellent exercise, for a couple of reasons, but mostly because it will help you develop not only memory skills but visualization skills... very cool!

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## oneironautics

Thanks for the help, that all makes so much sense, who needs books with all the clever DVA staff   :;-):    don't really read books but i like skimming articles and experiments .  

So i have been trying to focus on my DC's which is why taking notice to everybody around me but maybe should start thinking something like,   The girl sitting opposite me is taller then me , and has bigger shoes then mine, and more tattoos then mine, so i remember myself.  

Makes sense about sister i guess we would be recieving about the same amount of information, but choosing what is most important,  I remember one time she said something to me that stuck for years but i just didn't know what to do with that information,   she said 'this type of tree has a sickness that blows in from denmark so alot of the trees in south sweden has it....  so i guess that is what she is more focused on :-) 

 Thanks for the Super Job you do, and HAVE a GREAT WEEKEND

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## namit2saxena

I've read your Session 2 : Timing. I am trying the water trick to wake my self naturally. I drink half glass water and sleep with the urge to drink more, So I always wake up after some hours of sleep(Mostly after a dream). How do I check that the specific WBTB time is best for me?

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## Sageous

> How do I check that the specific WBTB time is best for me?



It's easy to confirm an optimum WBTB time, because that optimum time will be helpful to having successful WILD's... In other words, when you've found the WBTB time that works best for you, you will know it!  Unfortunately, you can only determine that optimum time by looking for it; I can't give it to you from here. Experiment with different amounts of WBTB times until you find the one that fits your specific needs.

Also, I don't remember recommending that "water trick" you mentioned, and would generally advise against it.  Tricks like that tend to become distractions that do more to interfere with an easy, calm processing of your WILD than they do to help with, say timing.  With practice, you will learn to recognize the wake-ups that happen every night during your sleep cycle and be able to do a WBTB without any distracting tricks.  Patience and attention trumps tricks every time, I think.

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## Patjunfa

Hiya
Maybe already covered but do you have anything to say about incredibly itchy nose when getting close to WILD? I get it the odd time. Needs more than just a bit of willpower and non-reactivity to get through without moving. If I do move of course the thing is to not make a big deal of it and stay settled but it can certainly prolong the journey

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## Sageous

^^  I have indeed already covered this, and the answer then is the same as the answer now: if your nose itches, then fergodssake, scratch it!

Holding still is important in WILD, yes, but doing so at all costs can be counter-productive.  For instance, the effort made to ignore or work past that itchy nose can be far more distracting than just scratching it and being done with it.  

The whole "holding still" concept has become almost a religious tenet on the forums these days, possibly to the detriment of WILD itself.  Your WILD will still work just fine if you take a second to calmly scratch your nose; feel free to ignore the rule that you must hold still, no matter what the "rules" say!

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## Patjunfa

I get that that's the thing to do if the impulse is strong and persistent rather than creating a battle with a movement urge. It can just sometimes occur when v close to WILD and moving slows the journey. Yet at other parts of the night if not aiming at lucidity I can turn over and move without it having much of an effect on my journey into sleep. On one hand it feels as though I need to draw my attention inwards and away from the sensory world, yet maybe it's possible to move a bit and not make much of it, thereby not connecting much attention to the senses...also I'm just curious about it as sometimes it's, "wow, there's a suddenly intensely itch nose, what's going on..."as I think of it I have had this sometimes in meditation on sits where I choose not to move. Tnks for feedback

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## Nefets

How do I calm my mind when doing WILD? 
I have a problem with a lotsa thoughts coming and making me distracted from entering the dream , or relaxing at all. 
Also , do you know some good relaxing techniques? 
I had air thirst last morning, what do about that?

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## Sageous

^^ How to stay calm?  That's a fairly vast question, given the number of answers available... but I'll give it a shot, of course!

First, the part no one wants to hear: calming your mind, or staying focused on your dream rather than the myriad thoughts that scream for attention whenever the room gets dark and quiet is more the result of a _decision_ than any particular technique.  You must decide to stay focused on your dream, to ignore stray thoughts or noise like HI or vibrations, before any techniques can work.  Once you choose to ignore distractions, paying attention to your WILD dive gets a lot easier.  I know, I know, you've obviously already made that choice, right?  Perhaps, but maybe there are parts of you that weren't listening, so it's time to make the choice a little more deeply.  Once you've done so, here are a couple of things you might try:

*  Try creating a little metaphor to redirect those stray thoughts.  Instead of allowing those thoughts to shower over you, imagine them flowing right past you in a softly bubbling stream. This will allow the thoughts to continue, but rather than distract they will merely pass by in a peaceful stream... this might sound hokey, but it can work!

* Increase the strength of your mantra, either by making it more important to you and your goals for your dive, or perhaps just on the words you are repeating themselves.  In other words, let the mantra fill in the spaces that stray thoughts tend to fill.

* Pay attention to your breathing.  Don't _change_ your breathing, but simply _notice_ it as it gently passing in and out of your body.  If you combine this with your mantra (i.e., when I breathe in I say, "Here," and when I breathe out I say, "Now"), you might find yourself able to focus enough of your attention on something other than stray thoughts throughout your dive.

* If all else fails, then just let the thoughts happen.  Allow the thoughts to wander through your mind, but don't dwell on any of them.  Threat them like any other sort of noise you might encounter, and let them pop in and pop out without paying any attention to them.  This is probably what you are already trying to do, but this time you'll have the power of that decision to stay focused and not pay attention to random thoughts in place, so it should be much easier.  :wink2: 

Also:

The best relaxation technique I know of is the 61-point relaxation technique.  It's a little complex, but in your case that complexity might serve to occupy your mind enough to help ignore stray thoughts, so you kill two birds with one stone.

I'm not quite sure what "air thirst" might be, though I'll assume it's something like shortness of breath or some other thing that makes your breathing feel uncomfortable.  I would say that the thing to do here is to take a few deep breaths, and holding them for a second before slowly letting them out. Also, remind yourself that there is nothing wrong with you, and that your breathing is not becoming abnormal -- Aside perhaps from breathing becoming more relaxed, there is nothing about a WILD transition that should effect your breathing (your breathing is exactly as it would be if you were not doing the WILD, unless you consciously add something to it).

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## FryingMan

> First, the part no one wants to hear: *calming your mind, or staying focused on your dream rather than the myriad thoughts that scream for attention whenever the room gets dark and quiet is more the result of a decision than any particular technique*.  You must decide to stay focused on your dream, to ignore stray thoughts or noise like HI or vibrations, before any techniques can work.  Once you choose to ignore distractions, paying attention to your WILD dive gets a lot easier.  I know, I know, you've obviously already made that choice, right?  Perhaps, but maybe there are parts of you that weren't listening, so it's time to make the choice a little more deeply.



YES!   This is the core truth.   How many times have I been there myself, trying to decide: should I just give up and get up and start my day?   Or dig deep and find that will to relax (don't let anybody fool you, relaxation is _hard work_ and requires an iron will!), let go the inner chatter, get back to sleep, and go for my desired lucid dream.    I tell myself, "this moment, this decision, right here, *this* is the practice.   *This* is what it takes.  Either gather the will to stop following thought chains and distracting fantasies and get down to the business of dreaming, or don't."   Those times I have made the decision to get back to dreaming and implemented the required relaxation (and keep doing it, and keep doing it, and on and on until sleep and dream), I'm usually rewarded with memorable dreaming experiences.

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## Nefets

Great advices, thank you guys. 
Honestly I indeed tried to make the thoughts pass through me, or make em happen , so they end quickly, just for me to get back to relaxing and waiting for the dream. 
But I cant relax, and tbh i had problems with relaxation and concentrating on the dream. I often end up being more awake than before ,and then i cannot even fall back to sleep. How do I find the golden headway for sustaining lucidity but also the ability to fall asleep ?

Is it really does the job if I just keep having the dream the main priority?

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## Sageous

> How do I find the golden headway for sustaining lucidity but also the ability to fall asleep ?



Unfortunately, there's only one way: Practice, Practice, Practice!  

Eventually you will find a balance -- based on experimenting with timing, WBTB length, mantras, focus, etc -- that leads to your being able to consistently fall asleep with reasonable ease without losing touch with your self-awareness (aka, enjoy WILD transitions).  But you will only get there with time, effort, and accumulated personal experience... there really are no shortcuts.





> Is it really does the job if I just keep having the dream the main priority?



Yup!

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## Nefets

And damn, I indeed had a lucid dream this morning, I think it was a successfull wild but I dont know for sure. I concentrated, did mantras ,and eventually i got in lucid.  
I forgot most of the dreams details though, like always.
I have a really low lucidity , how do I fix that? I think the problem may be that my lucidity goes to a very low level by the time i reach the transition.
I dont know if I can  fall asleep with wake life lucidity, is it possible?

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## Sageous

> And damn, I indeed had a lucid dream this morning, I think it was a successfull wild but I dont know for sure. I concentrated, did mantras ,and eventually i got in lucid.



  That's a good sign!  

Don't worry about whether you got lucid through WILD or not; what maters is that you got lucid, period... Many of my WILD attempts end in DILD's and I am quite content with that; perhaps you should, too!





> I forgot most of the dreams details though, like always.



 Well, _that's_ not a great thing...  Do you keep a dream journal?  If not, you should think about doing so, because good recall is extremely helpful to successful LD'ing (and a DJ is the best first step toward good recall).





> I have a really low lucidity , how do I fix that? I think the problem may be that my lucidity goes to a very low level by the time i reach the transition.



 Unfortunately, there's only one way: Practice, Practice, Practice!  :wink2: 

I know it seems like I'm repeating myself, here, because I am. But I do believe that, after you get a substantial amount of LD's under your belt, and you've had time to develop your ability to gather self-awareness and memory during your LD's, you will find your yourself achieving higher levels of lucidity with relative ease.  So, even if you still lose some self-awareness during your WILD transition (and most of us do, BTW), recovering it -- and, perhaps more importantly, remembering to recover it -- won't seem like such a problem.

So, again, there are no shortcuts;  these things take time.  The best things in life -- and LD'ing for me is near the top of that list -- are never gained without time, effort, and, above all, patience.  So: practice, practice, practice, and don't ever be concerned about your limited results now, instead look forward to the future big successes for which these little ones are preparing you. 





> I dont know if I can  fall asleep with wake life lucidity, is it possible?



Since that is basically the definition of a WILD, I must say that of course it's possible -- and something to look forward to!

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## Nefets

It often happens in a dream that I turn into my sleeping position while standing and cant move properly, and then I wake up.
What do do against it?

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## Sageous

^^  I'm not sure I fully understand your question, but it seems that what you experienced was a connection to your waking-life body.

Lucid dreams often happen when you are very close, physically, to a waking state.  So there you were, enjoying your LD, when suddenly that waking-life presence needed to make itself feel known, in the form of forcing your dream body into the posture that you remember you were using when you went to sleep.  That recognition, by your dreaming self, led inexorably to your waking up because, well, you were basically completing the connection to your waking-life body.

I don't think there is any need to do anything "against" this when it happens, because, unfortunately, this sort of situation indicates that you are likely too close to waking to do anything to keep it --and the end of your dream --  at bay.  But you can still try, at least in the name of setting yourself up for a DEILD when the inevitable wake-up happens.

Should this sort of thing happen again, I suggest that you relax and remind yourself that your dream body itself is not real, and any impression you might be receiving (like, that you're mimicking the posture of your waking-life sleeping body), is an illusion.  If you can manage this, then you might be able to settle your mind back into your dream and avoid the wake-up that was otherwise inevitable.   Plus, even if the wake-up must occur, you will be prepared to do a DEILD and return to the dream after it occurs.

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## Nefets

So I started to try WILD today this morning, I remembered this thread and your advice about determination to dream. 
So thats what I did, I had a mantra which I forgot now eh, and it really did help me diving deeper in relaxation,had some minimal hypnanogic's.
Then at a point my whole body became tense, like if my whole body was placed under pressure ,or a heavy amount of energy was in my limbs. It was not SP I could move well and all that btw. 
So this is how far I got ,I wonder if you know what was that, was I in the right way to a successfull LD? 

Tomorrow I'll try to go as far as I can with staying still and concentrating, unfortunately I wont be able to try in the weekend so tomorrow is the last chance before weekend.

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## Sageous

^^ Thanks for sharing, Nefets!  Here are a couple of thoughts:





> So I started to try WILD today this morning, I remembered this thread and your advice about determination to dream. 
> So thats what I did, I had a mantra which I forgot now eh, and it really did help me diving deeper in relaxation,had some minimal hypnanogic's.



I think maybe that if you cannot remember the mantra you used during your WILD attempt, it might not have been quite meaningful enough.  Your mantra ought to be important enough to both hold your attention and help you better focus on your LD'ing goals (even if the goal is only to stay aware throughout the WILD).  That said, whatever you were repeating did seem to help; nice work!





> Then at a point my whole body became tense, like if my whole body was placed under pressure ,or a heavy amount of energy was in my limbs. It was not SP I could move well and all that btw. 
> So this is how far I got ,I wonder if you know what was that, was I in the right way to a successfull LD?



I don't know what that was, though it does sound like you might have been feeling your body becoming fully relaxed for sleep, and its strangeness might have just felt _like_ tension, rather than actually _being_ tension, if that makes any sense. In any case, the best choice to make, I think, would have been to ignore that tension as just so much noise, assume it will pass shortly, and above all take it as a sign that you are very close to sleep, and, finally, your dream (which you likely were!).

So, yes, I would say that you were indeed well along to a successful WILD; just be sure next time to let stuff like that tension come and go without paying too much attention...





> Tomorrow I'll try to go as far as I can with staying still and concentrating, unfortunately I wont be able to try in the weekend so tomorrow is the last chance before weekend.



Good luck!  Also, don't worry about rushing things; it's better to take your time preparing for just the right time to WILD than it is to get in as many attempts as possible regardless of preparation.

You probably have already, but if not, I hope you might set aside some time to take the WILD class to which this thread is attached; you might find it helpful.

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## ahmedoy

my problem is i cant even enter the dream , i have always done the schemas method by nature thats why it would cause me so vivid but less lucid visions or dreamlets . You also mentioned a period after HI ends . how do you get to that  ? Dont you just get hi and when its stable you try imagining the sensation of touching it and BOOM you are there

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## Sageous

^^ It sounds to me, Ahmedboy, that you might be leaning a bit too far toward technique, and in the process forgetting that a main goal of WILD is to fall asleep.

I think you might not be entering the dream because, simply, you are not giving yourself time to fall asleep. The things I suggested in the WILD session 4: Forming Your Dreams thread are mostly meant to be done _after_ you have fallen asleep, but find yourself with little or nothing in your dream content.  With the exception of messing with HI (more in a sec) there was an understanding throughout that you are asleep and dreaming when the time comes to  form your dreams... I guess I wasn't clear enough about that in the post.

So, instead of concerning yourself with "getting to HI" and doing the schema method, you might instead stay focused on relaxing and getting to sleep without losing your waking-life self-awareness.  You will likely have no problem recognizing the time to try forming your dream because, well, you'll be asleep and dreaming with nothing much going on.   

That quiet period after HI that I mentioned, BTW, is simply a few moments of NREM sleep where you are asleep but your dream hasn't formed yet; if you find yourself there, just wait patiently for a dream to form or try the things I mention in the session... but don't _look_ for that quiet period or get frustrated if it doesn't happen; because it might never happen.  You can -- and likely occasionally will -- get to sleep and dream without ever experiencing HI or any noise at all, so waiting for it (or any other noise) can be a distraction that actually prevents your dream from forming, and might even keep you from falling asleep. 

All that said, I just reread session 4 and realized that, were I writing it now, I probably would have left out the part about converting HI imagery to dream imagery.  Though this technique can work nicely -- and gives you something dreamy to do during the wait for sleep -- it really might serve as a distraction from your path to being asleep and able to properly dream.  If you haven't already developed a mindset that is familiar with the process of falling asleep during a WILD dive (which you will develop, as you get some successful WILD's behind you) then playing with HI imagery might tend to wake you up fully, regardless of how good your visualization skills may be.  In other words, I suggest, now, that you hold off on playing with HI and save the schema work for when you know you are asleep but are not dreaming the sort of dream you were hoping to dream.  

*tl;dr:*  Half of WILD is about falling asleep, Ahmedboy; try to be patient during your WILD dive and let that sleep come.  _After_ that, should you feel a need to form your dream, go for it.

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## ahmedoy

Oh sure ! But how would I know if I am in NREM if there are no dreams , I mean do you know it from its queitnes or from the relaxation .

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## Sageous

> Oh sure ! But how would I know if I am in NREM if there are no dreams , I mean do you know it from its queitnes or from the relaxation .



The general answer to that is that you _will know._  But, since that answer seems never to satisfy, how about this?

You will know you are asleep and in NREM more by what is missing than by what is there: you will no longer have the sensation of your physical body -- your weight upon the bed, the weight of your sheets upon you, the pressure of your eyelids, etc-- but you also will know if you try a RC and it fails (you'll know even more clearly when you find yourself, say, conjuring hands with which to do the RC, a nose to pinch, or light with which to see what you're doing, or have difficulty doing so).  Or you might know because you're in a place of true nothingness that does not exist in waking-life -- a place folks around here like to call the void.  Finally, you will know because you've been sleeping/dreaming all your life and you might instinctively understand that the place you are in is one of sleep and dreams, and not of waking-life.

But none of that matters, because you know what the best part is?  Even if you_ don't know_ it doesn't matter!  That's because, regardless of where you think you are, how you define it, or even if you get your definition wrong (i.e., you think you're still awake), all you have to do his be patient, stay focused on your dream and your awarenesss, and in a short time a dream will form no matter what you think of it!

Remember also that if you are attempting your WILD after several hours' sleep, which you should be doing, this period of NREM will be very short, if it occurs at all.  So it is possible to give it no heed either, treating it as little more than another signpost on your road to a lucid dream.  And, of course, what you should _not do_ is look for this period of nothingness, or assume that it must happen, because that will only lead you toward more WILD-defeating distraction.

*tl;dr:* You will likely know you are in this moment of NREM, but whether you know it or not, just stay calm and patient and your dream will form shortly.

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## ahmedoy

Awesome explanation !! WOW literaly WOW you have very good writing skills !   Any way i will try tommorow once i wake up to go to the toilet or wake up from a dream  ::D:

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## ahmedoy

So what i did yesterday is the following : i woke up after 3 hours , stayed awake for 5 minutes , after that i returned to bed , slept on my side and stayed aware .
The urge to let go was powerful but somehow i held my mantra firmly in my head and just meditated on it . I did not let any thoughts invade my mind , and i was firmly repeating in my head "I will stay AWARE and CONSCIOUS  AWARE and CONSCIOUS .... "  Suddenly sleep paralysis hits me and i know i am already in the dream i roll out of my body and have a dream with very little lucidity . Now i did everything i could to avoid sleep paralysis because it always makes me enter lucid dreams without much lucidity , i did everything instructed and i relaxed . How can i alter the effect and avoid entering using sleep paralysis ? I want to watch the dream form around me and then enter it   ::whyme::

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## Sageous

^^ I just answered this post on the "What Happened" thread, where you left the same message.  Please don't double-post, Ahmedoy, as the DV's admins don't like it, and it just confuses me!  :wink2:

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## ahmedoy

Sure !!

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## StarSeeker

> Please use this thread to post any questions you have about the WILD According to Sageous Sessions, WILD, self-awareness, or any other related topic. I'll answer what I can, and maybe lively discussions will also ensue -- from which we all always learn!
> 
> Best of Dreams,
> 
> Sageous



Hi,

I have read all the WILD classes and tried WILD for two weeks, but I have hard time falling asleep, maybe I'm trying too hard. I just lie there for like 30 minutes, trying not to move stiff as a board. At some time my muscles starting to ache and can't proceed any further. I tried counting forward/backward but most of the time nothing happen and I just lose sleep. Some time I get the HI as random imagery and voices, but maybe I'm focusing too hard on them and cycles there. Just yesterday I succeed by incident, again was too aware of my body, at some point I started tell to myself "sensory input come on shut down". The light behind my eyelids started to fade away(i have direct sunlight in my room) like somebody switched off the lamp and started to hear humming sounds instead of outside dog barking, maybe I switched from external to internal stimuli. My eyelids were heavy and I felt if I open them, I will open them in real world, so I stand up with eyes shut, but somehow I still can see the room with some sort of xray vision. I move around and I remember my dream goal(to access dreamviews.com from my bedroom pc), but what ever I type on the keyboard come as jibberish on the screen. I got angry of trying and everything fall apart around me. It seems normal steps: 
1. Lie down.
2. Close your eyes.
3. Hold still. Really; don’t move!
4. Wait.
5. Enjoy the lucid dream.
Don't work very well for light sleeper like me. Any ideas?

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## Sageous

Hmm.

Right off the bat, StarSeeker, I'm thinking that maybe you should take my WILD class again.  I'm a little surprised that, after taking it, you still see the WILD process as lie down/hold still/wait, because the class is all about the fact that WILD requires much more than that.  Also, I think if you browse the Q&A's (Both the WILD Q&A and Lucid Dreaming Fundamentals Q&A), you will likely find much discussion about the things that you've asked about -- for instance, I'm a light sleeper myself, so that subject comes up a few times.  

That said, a couple of thoughts:

First, if your muscles ache during a WILD attempt, you may be attempting to stay _too still_.  Remember that WILD is all about actually falling asleep; if you make the struggle to stay still too active, (like, for instance, clenching your muscles to keep from moving) your body might respond by keeping you awake so you can better maintain the effort.  I would suggest that you consider "keeping still" a bit less literally: yes, try not to move too much but let your body relax and settle naturally into sleep mode. You might consider trying a relaxation technique, like the 60-points meditation, to help you to settle into sleep mode more calmly.

As I mentioned, I too am a light sleeper, so I am pretty familiar with the challenges the come with it (and advantages, like always being slightly closer to a waking state than deep sleepers, and, given that LD'ing is a waking-state, always closer to being lucid!).  The biggest challenge is actually getting to sleep: I generally take over an hour to get to sleep during WILD's, sometimes more.  I don't tend to give up the effort until I've held still for at least 90 minutes.  So, my recommendation here is that you give yourself more than 30 minutes before you give up -- and, if you are relaxing rather than tightening those muscles while you hold still, a longer wait might not be such a problem.

I also recommend that you use a sleep mask, or blackout curtains during your WILD attempts (I use both, BTW).  Light is the enemy of sleep, and if your room has direct sunlight pouring in, getting to sleep is all that much harder.  I'd also suggest using some sort of white noise, like a fan, to dampen exterior sounds like barking dogs.  Though you seem to have found a use for both these things (the light and the barking) in your efforts, I think you might be better off if they weren't factors in your WILD process.

Finally:





> The light behind my eyelids started to fade away(i have direct sunlight in my room) like somebody switched off the lamp and started to hear humming sounds instead of outside dog barking, maybe I switched from external to internal stimuli. My eyelids were heavy and I felt if I open them, I will open them in real world, so I stand up with eyes shut, but somehow I still can see the room with some sort of xray vision. I move around and I remember my dream goal(to access dreamviews.com from my bedroom pc), but what ever I type on the keyboard come as jibberish on the screen. I got angry of trying and everything fall apart around me.



That sounds to me like a successful WILD!  The LD may have been uneventful, but it seems you went through he transition from wake to sleep to dream successfully; no need to see that as a fail, I think.

*tl;dr:* there is more to WILD than just "1. Lie down; 2. Close your eyes; 3. Hold still; 4. Wait."  I hope you will find the time to revisit my class and explore the other stuff, primarily mental prep and the fundamentals.


Good luck!

----------


## GordanFreeman

> Please use this thread to post any questions you have about the WILD According to Sageous Sessions, WILD, self-awareness, or any other related topic. I'll answer what I can, and maybe lively discussions will also ensue -- from which we all always learn!
> 
> Best of Dreams,
> 
> Sageous



Hello,

I just noticed this handy thread and noticed you are actually a Dream Guide, because I really need an experienced opinion for an important question of mine.

I'm in the middle of a nasty long dry spell, so I go back in time and reviewed my dream journal to see what I'm missing. After some calculation of the successful induced LDs, I averaged my chance of pure DILD to just 10% of all LDs, WILD,VILD,DEILD to 25% and FAW->DILD to 65%. So do I to continue trying to induce WILD or to just stick to a technique that produce more FAW for more quantity, less quality?

One more question, are these events are also variation of FAW or they are something else?
-Opening my eyes in front of the mirror in my bathroom
-Opening my eyes while sitting on the couch in living room
-Opening my eyes standing next to the window in my kitchen(they all start of opening my eyes)
They all start in my house, but not in the bed. In most of them I don't even need to do RC, I just know I'm dreaming.

----------


## Sageous

^^ Actually no, I'm not a Dream Guide here at DV; I'm just a guy who volunteered to write a DVA course on WILD.  But that doesn't mean I can't offer a response of some sort:





> I'm in the middle of a nasty long dry spell, so I go back in time and reviewed my dream journal to see what I'm missing. After some calculation of the successful induced LDs, I averaged my chance of pure DILD to just 10% of all LDs, WILD,VILD,DEILD to 25% and FAW->DILD to 65%. So do I to continue trying to induce WILD or to just stick to a technique that produce more FAW for more quantity, less quality?



I would suggest that you continue to work toward inducing WILD's, because the mindset such work produces might just be the thing that's causing those false awakenings (which, I assume, is what FAW stands for) in the first place.  Besides, there's no sense stopping a practice that produces a quarter of your lucid moments!  Also, in my opinion, quality _always_ outweighs quantity.





> One more question, are these events are also variation of FAW or they are something else?
> -Opening my eyes in front of the mirror in my bathroom
> -Opening my eyes while sitting on the couch in living room
> -Opening my eyes standing next to the window in my kitchen(they all start of opening my eyes)
> They all start in my house, but not in the bed. In most of them I don't even need to do RC, I just know I'm dreaming.



I think I would put them more in a "something else" category, like simple dream imagery produced at times when your dreaming mind can't produce something more complex.  For instance, sometimes you might be dreaming very late in the sleep cycle (say, after 6 hrs' sleep) and the only reason you are is, perhaps, because of your intentions to LD; indeed the only reason you might be asleep at that point is due to an attempt to LD, and your consciousness might be way closer to a waking-life attitude than it is to the state that produces full-on dreams.  

So your dreaming mind has little left to offer regarding dream content (and often little inclination, because its work is effectively done for the night), and a limited ability to summon imagery that will seem to your near-wakeful perception as real.  What it does in that case is simply throw up whatever imagery is most readily available, and you find yourself opening your eyes in very familiar/recent settings.  

The reason I don't see this as a FA is that FA's occur when you are still more deeply asleep and are specifically dreams -- actual dreams -- _about_ waking up, and often are accompanied by a solid non-lucid sense of reality that leads you to believe that they are truly awakenings.  Now, FA's do tend to occur under similar circumstances as do the moments you listed -- late in the sleep cycle your dreaming mind has a limited capacity for imagery, so it grabs what it can -- but I think FA's are still more definable as dreams. It may be subtle, but the difference here is that during FA's your mind is a little further away from lucidity than it is during those moments your dreaming mind conjures simple imagery to accommodate your near-waking interest in continuing your dream.  ... not that there's anything wrong with that simple imagery: if finding yourself "opening" your eyes in those familiar situations also finds yourself lucid, all the better, whether FA's or not!

This all sounded a lot better in my head, but hopefully I've been clear enough.

----------


## GordanFreeman

Your answers are always vast, thanks. :Nod yes:  Are u participating on other LD forums?





> I would suggest that you continue to work toward inducing WILD's, because the mindset such work produces might just be the thing that's causing those false awakenings (which, I assume, is what FAW stands for) in the first place.  Besides, there's no sense stopping a practice that produces a quarter of your lucid moments!  Also, in my opinion, quality _always_ outweighs quantity.



You are right about quality vs quantity, but in my current health condition they are very hard and unreliable way of inducing the so desired LDs. Also I already mastered the stabilization part(30 minutes and more with no time dilatations and more than 24 hours with them), so I just need a chance to become lucid. In my curent health condition I only have two choices: Die or Evolve. And I'm so close to the Sun, only little further remains, it's within my grasp I can taste it.






> I think I would put them more in a "something else" category, like simple dream imagery produced at times when your dreaming mind can't produce something more complex.  For instance, sometimes you might be dreaming very late in the sleep cycle (say, after 6 hrs' sleep) and the only reason you are is, perhaps, because of your intentions to LD; indeed the only reason you might be asleep at that point is due to an attempt to LD, and your consciousness might be way closer to a waking-life attitude than it is to the state that produces full-on dreams.  
> 
> So your dreaming mind has little left to offer regarding dream content (and often little inclination, because its work is effectively done for the night), and a limited ability to summon imagery that will seem to your near-wakeful perception as real.  What it does in that case is simply throw up whatever imagery is most readily available, and you find yourself opening your eyes in very familiar/recent settings.  
> 
> The reason I don't see this as a FA is that FA's occur when you are still more deeply asleep and are specifically dreams -- actual dreams -- _about_ waking up, and often are accompanied by a solid non-lucid sense of reality that leads you to believe that they are truly awakenings.  Now, FA's do tend to occur under similar circumstances as do the moments you listed -- late in the sleep cycle your dreaming mind has a limited capacity for imagery, so it grabs what it can -- but I think FA's are still more definable as dreams. It may be subtle, but the difference here is that during FA's your mind is a little further away from lucidity than it is during those moments your dreaming mind conjures simple imagery to accommodate your near-waking interest in continuing your dream.  ... not that there's anything wrong with that simple imagery: if finding yourself "opening" your eyes in those familiar situations also finds yourself lucid, all the better, whether FA's or not!
> 
> This all sounded a lot better in my head, but hopefully I've been clear enough.



So maybe I can just use my house as standing point to Lucidity, I just need to find the right approach. You see my 95% of dreams are literally crazy, they are very vivid and detailed and my recall is very good(at least 3 dreams per night), but only in other 5% normal dreams I can become lucid. I'm a natural Lucid dreamer and when I remembered all of them(in childhood) were produced from FAW, so maybe I just need to go back to my roots. Do you know some expert of FAW on this forum, maybe he can give me some hint to producing them.

Ah and another question, I tried RC in the past, but they didn't work very well. Now I stopped myself to just one. When noticing something strange I just say "Where the hell am I" and "Am I dreaming right now" and observing my surroundings for surreal, but I always finish with "No I'm awake now maybe next time". Do I make it wrong?

----------


## Sageous

> So maybe I can just use my house as standing point to Lucidity, I just need to find the right approach. You see my 95% of dreams are literally crazy, they are very vivid and detailed and my recall is very good(at least 3 dreams per night), but only in other 5% normal dreams I can become lucid. I'm a natural Lucid dreamer and when I remembered all of them(in childhood) were produced from FAW, so maybe I just need to go back to my roots. *Do you know some expert of FAW on this forum, maybe he can give me some hint to producing them.*



Nope; I can't think of anyone who's focused on producing/capitalizing on FA's.  Who knows? When you're done, _you_ might be the expert in this category!





> Ah and another question, I tried RC in the past, but they didn't work very well. Now I stopped myself to just one. When noticing something strange I just say "Where the hell am I" and "Am I dreaming right now" and observing my surroundings for surreal, but I always finish with "No I'm awake now maybe next time". Do I make it wrong?



Here's my standard response to RC questions:  

"There is a dirty little secret about RC's that the gurus refuse to tell you: _RC's don't make you lucid. Period._  The only time RC's work is _after_ you've become aware that you're dreaming, as confirmation that you are indeed dreaming.  Otherwise, you're just as likely to have a NLD _about_ doing a RC that fails as you are one that doesn't fail."

That said, I think I could guess that yes, indeed, you did "make it wrong."  That's because you didn't have enough lucidity on hand to counter the "artificial reality" of the surreal stuff you noticed, to remember that the stuff you were seeing could not be real.  But making it wrong was not your fault, inasmuch as it really wasn't' "You" making it wrong, but your "DC you" who remained consistent with NLD consciousness by failing to remember that the strange things you saw should have meant it was a dream.  As I said above, though, there's nothing you can do about this, because, well, RC's simply don't work if you are not already present in the dream.

----------


## GordanFreeman

> Nope; I can't think of anyone who's focused on producing/capitalizing on FA's.  Who knows? When you're done, _you_ might be the expert in this category!



Shame, oh well then I'm just gonna use some SSILD combined with "expectation and intention".





> Here's my standard response to RC questions:  
> 
> "There is a dirty little secret about RC's that the gurus refuse to tell you: _RC's don't make you lucid. Period._  The only time RC's work is _after_ you've become aware that you're dreaming, as confirmation that you are indeed dreaming.  Otherwise, you're just as likely to have a NLD _about_ doing a RC that fails as you are one that doesn't fail."
> 
> That said, I think I could guess that yes, indeed, you did "make it wrong."  That's because you didn't have enough lucidity on hand to counter the "artificial reality" of the surreal stuff you noticed, to remember that the stuff you were seeing could not be real.  But making it wrong was not your fault, inasmuch as it really wasn't' "You" making it wrong, but your "DC you" who remained consistent with NLD consciousness by failing to remember that the strange things you saw should have meant it was a dream.  As I said above, though, there's nothing you can do about this, because, well, RC's simply don't work if you are not already present in the dream.



Sorry maybe I confused you, I'm using this RC through waking life several times a day, but maybe I'm finishing it wrongly with "no I'm not dreaming right now". Maybe this transfer into my dreams and give me the opposite effect. And yes I never did any RC inside the dreams, I'm just getting this sudden "doh I'm dreaming" effect.

I read several pages of your fundamental thread and noticed you are natural dreamer like me, of course you are much older than me. I feel we are on the same boat that sways in the waves of the endless sea called Lucid Dreaming. But men, you must have more faith and discarding less the stuff you can't prove to yourself.

Sorry, today I'm little in hyperarousal state, because I made a major breakthrough. I re-discovered a way of OBE at will and shout "Eureka" so loud that maybe someone heard me away from two houses of mine ::rolllaugh::  I have done OBE many times before, but it was unintentional and unconsciously. I just had some various leads of what I had done before gonne to bed. I must focus on the solution now and rethink every step I have done.

p.s. I just noticed you are writer and love art, I'm not sure that you are into games, but you must definitely try "Alan Wake", this game is piece of art. It mixing a good story with dreaming scenario and ah the main protagonist is a writer. My favorite moment is when his wife shout in his ear _"Wake up, Alan"_
One more PC trailer
The PC trailer

----------


## Sageous

> Sorry maybe I confused you, I'm using this RC through waking life several times a day, but maybe I'm finishing it wrongly with "no I'm not dreaming right now". Maybe this transfer into my dreams and give me the opposite effect. And yes I never did any RC inside the dreams, I'm just getting this sudden "doh I'm dreaming" effect.



  Yes, I did misunderstand.  

In that case, I would say that you are doing your daytime RC just fine.  What else can you say when you do a RC and it turns out positive?  If you're awake, you're awake; telling yourself something else, in my opinion, is not very helpful. So I change my response, because you were not doing anything wrong, or giving your mind anything to dampen your becoming lucid during a NLD.





> I read several pages of your fundamental thread and noticed you are natural dreamer like me, of course you are much older than me. I feel we are on the same boat that sways in the waves of the endless sea called Lucid Dreaming. But men, you must have more faith and discarding less the stuff you can't prove to yourself.



Alas, I am not a natural by any measure.  I spent many years developing what skills I have, and I still must make an effort to achieve maximum lucidity.  

I don't remember what I may have said about proof in the fundamentals thread (though I did go on about it in another thread, here), but be assured I never "discard" experiences that I  cannot explain or clearly remember.  I keep them, try to learn from them, am regularly amazed by them, but I do try to avoid potential delusion by adding to them aspects or meaning that may never have been there in the first place.  If you cloud your mind with wonderful, imagined explanations for what happened in an unusual experience, you might overlook the subtle stuff that _really_ happened, and that is never good.





> p.s. I just noticed you are writer and love art, I'm not sure that you are into games, but you must definitely try "Alan Wake", this game is piece of art. It mixing a good story with dreaming scenario and ah the main protagonist is a writer. My favorite moment is when his wife shout in his ear _"Wake up, Alan"_
> One more PC trailer
> The PC trailer



  Sorry; I am not a gamer.

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## GordanFreeman

> Sorry; I am not a gamer.



Oh well nobody is perfect  ::wink:: , but you still can watch the full gameplay walkthrough on Youtube. It's like a movie.

Maybe soon I will post a tutorial of OBE at will in Beyond Dreaming section ::alien:: 





> I don't remember what I may have said about proof in the fundamentals thread (though I did go on about it in another thread, here), but be assured I never "discard" experiences that I  cannot explain or clearly remember.  I keep them, try to learn from them, am regularly amazed by them, but I do try to avoid potential delusion by adding to them aspects or meaning that may never have been there in the first place.  If you cloud your mind with wonderful, imagined explanations for what happened in an unusual experience, you might overlook the subtle stuff that _really_ happened, and that is never good.




After I read at least the first page of that thread, some of the fundamentals thread and prologue of one of your books, I must say that I stay strong with my words - you must have more *faith*. And now I know why you didn't reach your true goal yet, because you chose to lock your "one mind" to your "one self" and ignore everything else.(Of cource I'm not trying to criticize you here on anything, that was your rightful choice to do so)

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## Sageous

Sigh.

I'm amazed that you feel you know me so well after reading just a few snippets of my written work, Gordon; I personally like to know a bit more about a person before passing judgement; but that's just me, I suppose.  Oh, and I have plenty of faith, thanks, I'm pretty sure I've never shared my "true goal" here, much less lamented not reaching it, and I'm afraid you've remarkably misunderstood something I said regarding that "one mind" bit, because what you said made no sense (f you were referencing my recommendation that dreamers pursue a non-dual perspective, you might want to read more of my work; that perspective does not require me to ignore things that seem beyond my own creation -- in fact I welcome and actively pursue  such things).

Now that you've had a chance to "not criticise" me, I think it's time to go back to WILD, which is what this thread is about; I hope you don't mind.

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## GordanFreeman

> Sigh.
> 
> I'm amazed that you feel you know me so well after reading just a few snippets of my written work, Gordon; I personally like to know a bit more about a person before passing judgement; but that's just me, I suppose.  Oh, and I have plenty of faith, thanks, I'm pretty sure I've never shared my "true goal" here, much less lamented not reaching it, and I'm afraid you've remarkably misunderstood something I said regarding that "one mind" bit, because what you said made no sense (f you were referencing my recommendation that dreamers pursue a non-dual perspective, you might want to read more of my work; that perspective does not require me to ignore things that seem beyond my own creation -- in fact I welcome and actively pursue  such things).
> 
> Now that you've had a chance to "not criticise" me, I think it's time to go back to WILD, which is what this thread is about; I hope you don't mind.



You misunderstood me, I didn't write this to start a arguing, I just did it to peace my mind. I can't possible start a arguing with you. You are a Master Dreamer(have many thousand of LD's), a writer(who can write vast and well structured and organaized posts), Elder (you got more life experience), so you are better than me. I just wanted to help, but if you feel offended, I'm sorry. And for the "one mind", I didn't read it anywhere, I just made it myself(I just try to use a metaphor here).

So peace. ::cheers::

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## StarSeeker

> ......
> Good luck!



One more question some guides say that, if you have a scratch during preparation, you must just scratch it and go back to the process, without think too much about it. Other say that you must ignore the scratches, because they are signal from your body to the brain, to check if you are still awake. So if you scratch the process reset itself. So who is more right?

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## Sageous

Scratch away, StarSeeker!

In my opinion, the struggle to ignore an itch is far more distracting and wake-inducing than is simply scratching the itch and settling back to your WILD dive.  

Yes, it is important to hold still during a WILD transition, _but that stillness is not the defining factor of your dive_ (that would be your state of mind, BTW).  If you must scratch an itch, or relax a cramp, or brush some hair out of your face, sniff, or shift your blankets, or etc., just go ahead and do it.  Do so with as little thought or attention to your action as possible, go back to your initial stillness, and let the action slide quickly into the past.

I'm not sure where this rule about remaining perfectly still at all cost came from, but rest assured I was doing successful WILDs for decades (and talking to other successful WILDer's about it), and the subject of extreme stillness itself never even came up, much less these tortuous rules for holding your position.  Oh, and you might want to ask one of those "others," who seem to think that an itch is your brain testing whether you are awake, where they got that information; I've never heard of it myself, and it truly makes no sense to me at all (why? for two reasons: first, what is an itch during the day, then, and why is that different from one at night?  Also, your brain is about the only part of you that _always_ knows whether you are awake or asleep; why would it need to enlist such an aid?).

So go ahead and scratch that itch.  It isn't the itch, or the scratching, that endangers your WILD dive, it is how you deal with that itch... focusing on it in an effort to not scratch is, in my opinion, a far greater distraction than just giving it a quick, gentle scratch without much thought, and distraction is the real enemy of  WILD, because it takes you away from minding your transition.

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## StarSeeker

So if I come with a mantra that can distract me from my body sensations like scratching and skip the sp part in the process, can I have an easier dive? Up until now I only have used counting, but maybe it isn't very effective.

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## Sageous

[hmm... we seem to be combining questions from the DILD thread  :wink2: ]

No, a mantra is not meant to distract; quite the opposite.  It's meant to keep you in focus.  Body processes like scratching are what distract you from the mantra, which is why it's best to minimize their impact.  

Wait.  You know what?  Usually about now in a conversation I come to a suggestion, and here it is:  If you haven't already, I suggest that you take the WILD Class to which this thread is attached.  I think you'll find that it answers most of your questions, and might just answer a couple that you haven't thought of yet.  There's even a session on mantras.

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## StarSeeker

> ...



Hi again,

Some time pass, had a lot of LDs, but it's not enough. I need more, maybe I'm too greedy. So I have come to ask you something of utmost importance, about the mantras you are using. In the mantra section you said that you are using  “I am at the point where the land and the water meet,” then you changed to a simple "Dive", in my learning process I understood that words are not very important, but the feeling you put behind them. You use a lot of "water, dive", maybe you like swiming or the sea. So what feeling or imagination you were putting behind these words when repeating them? Every detail can be important.

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## Sageous

^^ First, StarSeeker, I think you may have misunderstood something from that post:  The mantra I noted, I am at the point where the land and the water meet, had nothing to do with the mantra, "Dive," that I used years later; it was just an example. Also, perhaps as an aside, I used the word "dive" a lot in the class, but I wasn't (consciously, anyway) thinking of entering water, but rather that a WILD transition is very much like a dive from wake to sleep to dream, so the shorthand worked nicely.  

That said:

Terms like "water" and "dive" are meaningful to me because over the years I've formed, both accidentally and on purpose, a metaphoric vision of the unconscious as a great ocean, with our conscious selves generally limited to floating on the ocean's surface. So "dive" gives me an instant and clear image of breaking through that surface and offers an opportunity to plum the depths of the ocean of the unconscious.  Also, water has had a substantial role in my dreams throughout my life, especially in LD's (i.e., when I become lucid and choose to leave my current dream, I tend to wind up over or deep within a body of water).  So not so much about swimming or the sea (both of which I do like, BTW), but more about long-developed personal metaphor.

I think the above does make a nice example of what I'm talking about in the mantras session, in that the mantra is simple, easily repeated, and represents a lot of personal meaning. I hope it helped. 

As another aside, I'm a writer by trade, so words matter a lot to me, and I think in terms of mantras they mean even more: the words you choose should carry meaning -- as deep as possible to you personally, but they also should be simple, easy to repeat, perhaps even have a rhythm to them. Yes, it's the meaning that matters most, but be careful, if you can, to choose words that make your mantra easy to repeat and remember.

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## StarSeeker

> ^^ First, StarSeeker,



I thought we both reach the same idea, but I was wrong after all. You use the word "Dive" with meaning behind the same way one Anime use it, "Sword of Art Online"(i know you are not big fan of anime^^). They say "Full Dive" in Virtual World with special device similar to Inception.

My point is that in recent month during a hypnagogia session(my thoughts become more vivid in that state), I came up with a special type of mantra, it's different than other mantras. I called it a "motion mantra", by repeating it is tending to reproduce a predifined motion with practice, of course I'm still in process of beta testing it. If I can finish it, it will give a opportunity one to have multiple LDs in a single night. So I thought I can use some of your insight on the matter. This special technique is totally unique and it is not like the other abbreviations (FILD,VILD,MILD etc). Essentially is a "Dream hack", it's like  the mind back door. If one fall asleep while repeating her, it will tend to produce multiple FA with sudden awareness. You can test it if you want, here is the mantra: repeat "I'm getting heavy and sinking/falling." while imagine the sinking/falling sensation from WILD, you must  link the mantra with the sensation. This technique is a hybrid, producing both WILD and DILD, Its beta name is "The Lucid Kick"^^

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## Sageous

^^ That sounds like a good plan, StarSeeker. Attaching a mantra to an established hypnagogia technique (falling through your bed, or, as I think LaBerge suggested in EWOLD, rolling out of it) seems like a good idea, since it might get your mind set to better "fall" when the time comes, especially during FA's. Of course, me being me, I have just one small suggestion:

You might want to consider shortening your mantra, "I'm getting heavy and sinking/falling," to something more easy to repeat, like "I'm heavy," or maybe "My bed is a cloud," just so it stays with you longer.  If the meaning of your mantra is solid (and in your case it obviously is), then even just one word, maybe "Sink," is enough to keep the entire concept/motion at the front of your mind... Just a thought, of course, good luck with developing your Lucid Kick!


As long as I'm here:





> I thought we both reach the same idea, but I was wrong after all. You use the word "Dive" with meaning behind the same way one Anime use it, "Sword of Art Online"(i know you are not big fan of anime^^). They say "Full Dive" in Virtual World with special device similar to Inception.



Actually, I'm a longtime fan of anime, going back to _Ghost in the Shell_ and even _Starblazers_ and _Robotech_. I even saw the first season of SAO, though couldn't get interested in the rest (though I very much liked that its themes so clearly mirrored lucid dreaming).  I'm not much of a fan of _Inception_, though, because so much of it was just plain wrong.  And, finally, I think we are both working on the same surface, if not in the same spot...

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## StarSeeker

> ^^ That sounds like a good plan, StarSeeker. Attaching a mantra to an established hypnagogia technique (falling through your bed, or, as I think LaBerge suggested in EWOLD, rolling out of it) seems like a good idea, since it might get your mind set to better "fall" when the time comes, especially during FA's. Of course, me being me, I have just one small suggestion:
> 
> You might want to consider shortening your mantra, "I'm getting heavy and sinking/falling," to something more easy to repeat, like "I'm heavy," or maybe "My bed is a cloud," just so it stays with you longer.  If the meaning of your mantra is solid (and in your case it obviously is), then even just one word, maybe "Sink," is enough to keep the entire concept/motion at the front of your mind... Just a thought, of course, good luck with developing your Lucid Kick!



All your point are taken into consideration and recorded into my research book, thank you. That Sinking/falling I'm talking about are little different than a ordinary hypnagogia technique and there is a science behind it. Do you know what hypnic jerk is?





> _Hypnic jerks are phenomenon most of us have experienced at least a few times, often when very tired or exhausted. As we lay down to sleep, a part of the brain called the reticular formation sends a signal down the spine that causes muscles to relax, and we quickly fall into a deep slumber – only to be suddenly awoken with a jump and slight muscle twitch – often immediately preceded by a brief sensation of falling. They are a common and generally harmless experience, occurring in all sexes and ages to about 70% of the population._



So with that mantra attached with sensation of falling/sinking I want to recreate a fake hypnic jerk, that on theory must activate after you fall asleep, but instead of jerking you wide awake, to trigger a FA with awareness aka lucid kick.





> _What has this got to do with our relationship with trees? Well, hypnic jerks have been explained as an ancient reflex to the relaxation of muscles during the onset of sleep for tree dwelling primates – the brain essentially misinterprets the sudden relaxation as a sign that the sleeping primate is falling out of a tree and so causes the muscles to quickly react and to awaken. The hypnic jerk reflex is likely to have had selective value by having the sleeper readjust their sleeping position in a nest or on a branch, in order to assure that a fall did not occur._



So if you try the Lucid Kick technique, during the mantra repetition you can feel a slight muscle twitch, sadly I'm still in process of ajusting. The bomb must not blow up while you are planting it, does it now^^





> Actually, I'm a longtime fan of anime, going back to _Ghost in the Shell_ and even _Starblazers_ and _Robotech_. I even saw the first season of SAO, though couldn't get interested in the rest (though I very much liked that its themes so clearly mirrored lucid dreaming).  I'm not much of a fan of _Inception_, though, because so much of it was just plain wrong.  And, finally, I think we are both working on the same surface, if not in the same spot...



Honestly for the first time I'm glad to be wrong. I feel you much closer now, being an otaku myself. I already watched more than hundreds of anime. I watched Ghost in the shell long time ago, it was a little hard and dark for my taste though. I see that you like more mecha anime and for SAO next seasons were made more for fun and PvP battles. That said the last season was pretty good, exploiting the idea of recreating the human soul with help of AI, playing God again.

Inception can be wrong for most of the stuff, but at least show the general idea and had a positive outcome for these forums. If somebody can make such a machine, shared dreaming will become the next craze^^

Last I like your idea about the boat in the ocean, but instead of diving in it why don't you try to sink in the ocean, you can use a bit of visualization, if you like to float on your back in the water, letting yourself sink gently.  

I can give you a little tip that maybe you didn't think of yet. Why didn't try to reverse that metaphor of yours "Welcome to the reversed world". Instead of floating on top of the water, you can imagine that you are already in the water and floating on the reversed surface, sinking and falling through the sky into the space aka your SuperConsciousness much larger ocean than the unconsciousness. Heck you even can use a simple training technique, if you have a house. Sit outside on a chair comfortably and look up as much as you can, imagine that you are not looking up but down instead, after a while you gonna feel like your consciousness being pulled out.^_~

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## Sageous

^^ Hmm. Putting hypnic-jerk to work does seem like a new route; at least I've never heard of it.  

Corralling a body function into a mind function seems a difficult task, but if you can pull it off, I think you will indeed have lots of success... of course, _you_ will have the success; I almost never experience hypnic-jerks, so I can only watch from the sidelines as you develop your plan.

Interesting tip.  I might just give it a try; thanks!

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## StarSeeker

> ^^ Hmm. Putting hypnic-jerk to work does seem like a new route; at least I've never heard of it.  
> 
> Corralling a body function into a mind function seems a difficult task, but if you can pull it off, I think you will indeed have lots of success... of course, _you_ will have the success; I almost never experience hypnic-jerks, so I can only watch from the sidelines as you develop your plan.
> 
> Interesting tip.  I might just give it a try; thanks!



I'm gonna give my best shot^^

p.s. If I can find my old notes I can send you my own meditation technique I developed years ago. It gives the feeling you are high on LSD :wink2:

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## StarSeeker

Argh, Darn fake pens. My old notes got busted because of the humidity, I will try to recreate it by memory alone.

On other hand I have some questions related to WILD. Here is the list.

1)Did you ever tried FILD? Did it work like described or it is just an urban legend?

2)While repeating your mantra did you ever reach dream state without realizing it, I mean it happen so fast that you thought, you fail and you are about to suffer insomnia.

3)Did you ever found an object or DC(though that is not their true name) that is brighter and more colorful than the rest or even rainbow colored and can give you certain vibe while being lucid of course, unless you become lucid from meeting/finding that DC/object?

----------


## Sageous

[Huh... I thought I posted a response to this yesterday; I wonder where it went? Oh well...]





> 1)Did you ever tried FILD? Did it work like described or it is just an urban legend?



Nope. At first I thought it was a joke, that someone was making fun of all those ILD's.... I mean, seriously,_ Finger_?  But after reading about it, it does seem a viable, if very silly, technique for WILD. I never tried it, though, as I'm comfortable with what I got.





> 2)While repeating your mantra did you ever reach dream state without realizing it, I mean it happen so fast that you thought, you fail and you are about to suffer insomnia.



  Sure, but only when I've lost enough focus that I fail to notice he transition.  Mantras _help_ with focus; they don't cure a lack of it.





> 3)Did you ever found an object or DC(though that is not their true name) that is brighter and more colorful than the rest or even rainbow colored and can give you certain vibe while being lucid of course, unless you become lucid from meeting/finding that DC/object?



 I'm not sure I understand the question, but I have found several unique objects in LD's and NLD's over the years; objects that seemed to transcend the dream, defy accurate description, and were very important to me at the time. And yes, when the objects appeared during NLD's, lucidity _always_ followed.  Not so much with DC's, though: lots of inexplicable strangers, sure, and a few DC's were more important to me than others, but no "brighter or more colorful" ones that I remember. Oh, and in both cases none ever appeared rainbow-colored.

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## StarSeeker

> Sure, but only when I've lost enough focus that I fail to notice the transition.  Mantras _help_ with focus; they don't cure a lack of it.



Lol if I focus too much I can't fall asleep, in some other tip on DV a guy said "You must be prepared everything to happen and ignore it, but don't wait something to happen". So are you expecting to hit a SP?

Tonight on multiple occasions I tried WILD and get the following experience:
I was repeating my mantra synced to my breathing and suddenly was awaken by my family, we talked, do stuff and even I get out of the house for a short while. When returned I got in bed again and start to repeat my mantra again to only be awaken by loud bang noise comming from the outside, an astronaut had trown a rock at my window, I yelled at him to go catch the ship and get out of here, because he was disturbing my WILD induction. I get back in the bed and start repeating my mantra again while trying to fall asleep, next minute I woke up in my real bed while still repeating the mantra and realized what had happened.^^





> I'm not sure I understand the question, but I have found several unique objects in LD's and NLD's over the years; objects that seemed to transcend the dream, defy accurate description, and were very important to me at the time. And yes, when the objects appeared during NLD's, lucidity _always_ followed.  Not so much with DC's, though: lots of inexplicable strangers, sure, and a few DC's were more important to me than others, but no "brighter or more colorful" ones that I remember. Oh, and in both cases none ever appeared rainbow-colored.



I read your OP and just found one more similarity between us, interesting.





> By that I mean you are in a dream (even when lucid), and nothing about the dream seems to have anything at all to do with you, your life, the people you know, etc. All the dream characters are strangers, the setting is completely unusual, and the plot of the dream relates to nothing in your life, your fantasies, or even, as best you can tell, waking life residue. I do not mean that you are watching the dream like it’s a movie, as that can regularly relate directly to the dreamer.



Lol as if I had written it, you totally took the words from my mouth.




> I have experienced this countless times, and even investigated it while lucid -- for instance, while aware that I was dreaming, and who I was, I would ask dream characters who they were; also, I would carefully examine the scenery to see if there is anything at all I find familiar.



I did the same thing and got similar responces.





> Oddly, when I questioned dream characters, they often looked at me like I was *insane*, but would *not* provide an answer. Also, these strangers in my dreams often *acted as if I were an old friend*.



Lol man you are blowing my mind. And I reach to my own theories:
1)They try to contain me into the ilussion of everything being real, they don't want me to become lucid. I think that have something to do with external forces. By acted as old friends and something in my mind saying that I know them as well(like fake memories), but the moment I say I don't know them at all and this is a dream, they are trying to kill me and forcibly awaken me. *Strong minds must be contained!*





> I have found that strangers in my dreams seem to make great efforts to curb my lucidity … ie, when I am in a state of strong lucidity and seek to eliminate the dream around me in order to change it or pursue other things conscious, I often find the dream suddenly crowded with strangers clamoring for attention, and occasionally grabbing my legs should I try to fly away..



The same with all means necessary to keep me bounded. Sometimes even show me disturbing images (changes dream scenery), like my family is dying, my best friend is dead, my kitchen is in fire and I must wake up. Womans are trying to seduce me out of the blue.

But if I summon them, they are different than the rest, they are helping me. They even fight the others for me.

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## Sageous

^^ Thanks for checking out my "other people's dreams" thread.  Since it's more than off-topic for this thread, feel free to post there; it isn't a necro if I'm still here, and I mostly am!





> Lol if I focus too much I can't fall asleep, in some other tip on DV a guy said "You must be prepared everything to happen and ignore it, but don't wait something to happen".* So are you expecting to hit a SP?*



I'm never expecting SP, for two reasons.  

First, actual SP occurs when you are waking up, and not when you are falling asleep, so there is literally nothing to expect during a WILD, which occurs when you are waking up. The closest to actual SP is REM Atonia, which does occur when you're falling asleep, but, since you are able to exit REM Atonia whenever you want, it really isn't SP.  

I also have the added advantage of learning to WILD many years before the term was coined, and before the internet made SP important. It never occurred to me that anything I was experiencing before a WILD should matter so, well, it didn't.  I've had thousands of WILDS with minimal HI and no "SP" at all, so I don't bother expecting anything other than the dream.





> Tonight on multiple occasions I tried WILD and get the following experience:
> I was repeating my mantra synced to my breathing and suddenly was awaken by my family, we talked, do stuff and even I get out of the house for a short while. When returned I got in bed again and start to repeat my mantra again to only be awaken by loud bang noise comming from the outside, an astronaut had trown a rock at my window, I yelled at him to go catch the ship and get out of here, because he was disturbing my WILD induction. I get back in the bed and start repeating my mantra again while trying to fall asleep, next minute I woke up in my real bed while still repeating the mantra and realized what had happened.



Now there is a place I've been many times!  FA's ability to erase lucidity can be pretty amazing -- and frustrating, when you wake up. I love the astronaut part, BTW!

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## VagalTone

I have been doing the Reverse Reality Check, as described in another thread of the WILD course, and i have been finding it an interesting exercise, besides the increased dream vivdness i have experienced in these first days.
I think it helps me to strengthen  a sense of connection with my experience and a sense of order in terms of my actions and time. We are always interacting with the universe, and this exercise is interesting even if just for that matter. I hope to report again after some time. Thanks Sageous for the interesting exercise

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## michael79

> Please use this thread to post any questions you have about the WILD According to Sageous Sessions, WILD, self-awareness, or any other related topic. I'll answer what I can, and maybe lively discussions will also ensue -- from which we all always learn!
> 
> Best of Dreams,
> 
> Sageous



Hi,

As I don't see an active thread about VILD and WILD is the closest thing and you are best in the field around here, I want to ask a question.

Can you have Rem rebound without falling asleep during nap hours, I have some strange experiences when laying down for a nap(very tired), but didn't fall asleep, just staying with eyes closed. What I am getting I can't describe as a HI, it looks more like a dream, but it cannot be a dream, because I'm awake, hear the TV in my room, feel my body and can open my eyes any time to end it. It looks like a interactive visualization, a lucid dream with limited FOV(field of vision). If a normal lucid dream have 120°-180° FOV, then main have 70° FOV. For example tonight I lay down and closed my eyes and after a five minutes or so it started again, colors appears, then something that resembles a room, which transform into classroom, I'm sitting on a desk, I look around mentally and see other students and in front there is a teacher writing on a white board and explaining something. I can talk and I'm asking the next person to me what is this place, he make a sign that he can't talk right now and then the teacher look at me and say why I'm disturbing his class, to stop moving and start writing, if not I can get out from there. I just start wondering what is happening and accidentally loss focus and everything fall apart. I'm still awake but if I close my eyes again a different scenario play out, until I get up or fall asleep on purpose. I only found that I must have absolute focus all the time or everything just fall apart.

So what is that, a rebound Rem or something else like a interactive hallucination.(I won't bother you with paranormal stuff)
I may have other questions, but need to mentally arrange them in order first.

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## Sageous

^^ Sure, dreams -- or, more specifically, the imagery of dreams -- can certainly surface during awake times when you are still awake but are also hovering close to sleep, like waiting for a nap.  This is especially true for LD's, which generally occur when you are very close to being awake, or perhaps are actually balancing on the fence between wake and sleep. 

REM rebound (or the more exotic stuff) might have nothing to do with these phenomena.  Your dreaming mind, I feel, is almost always ready to spool up imagery, and maybe a bit of a discernible storyline, regardless of your conscious state or your current position on the sleep cycle charts.  This imagery might appear as dreamlets, like when you are working through a WILD transition, or as a full-blown dream during times when you are particularly relaxed, like mid-naptime.  This can occur while you are still awake because, thanks to your relaxed napping state, your mind is receptive to the imagery.  In fact, lately I've been wondering if we're not dreaming _all the time_, wake or not, and it just happens that during sleep or extreme relaxation the dream imagery can be perceived because the thick fog of waking-life perception has been lifted... sort of like the stars are always in the sky, but during the day the sunlight hides them.  I, for one, have regularly continued a dream after waking, sometimes for quite a while (a very handy DEILD tool, BTW), and do so by doing little more than continuing to pay attention after I know I'm awake.

So I guess the bottom line here is that yes, because dream imagery can be available at the edges of sleep, there's no reason a dream might not turn up during times when you are a bit further away from those edges -- as long as you are paying attention.

----------


## michael79

> ^^ Sure, dreams -- or, more specifically, the imagery of dreams -- can certainly surface during awake times when you are still awake but are also hovering close to sleep, like waiting for a nap.  This is especially true for LD's, which generally occur when you are very close to being awake, or perhaps are actually balancing on the fence between wake and sleep. 
> 
> REM rebound (or the more exotic stuff) might have nothing to do with these phenomena.  Your dreaming mind, I feel, is almost always ready to spool up imagery, and maybe a bit of a discernible storyline, regardless of your conscious state or your current position on the sleep cycle charts.  This imagery might appear as dreamlets, like when you are working through a WILD transition, or as a full-blown dream during times when you are particularly relaxed, like mid-naptime.  This can occur while you are still awake because, thanks to your relaxed napping state, your mind is receptive to the imagery.



Unexpectedly good answer, thank you! So in this relaxed napping state, I can still be awake while having lucid dream, which mean that maybe my theory about Alpha lucidity is correct, I read that meditational state can produce alpha waves and if I understand it correct just before we fall asleep we also produce Alpha waves, but we are not conscious about it, unless we are observing the process on purpose. That actually open an entire new box of possibilities, if I remember correctly the experiment of Dr Laberge for proving LD exist, here can be done something similar, but this time the dreamer can directly talk with him what he see and experience. Which can lead to another conclusion, the deep hypnosis session in the movies can be done for real, like memory relive. I'm sensing that bunch of new experiments are coming my way. ::chuckle:: 





> In fact, lately I've been wondering if we're not dreaming _all the time_, wake or not, and it just happens that during sleep or extreme relaxation the dream imagery can be perceived because the thick fog of waking-life perception has been lifted... sort of like the stars are always in the sky, but during the day the sunlight hides them.



I'm not sure about this, unless we cross the borderline of paranormal, but I'm an active daydreamer from young age and I can ascertain you that I can daydream with wide open eyes. I found at such times that I don't perceive the outside world, completely perceive only mentally. Of course my augmented reality daydreaming is the best, not only I can mix reality with imagery, but receive tactile responses, even emulating pain.




> I, for one, have regularly continued a dream after waking, sometimes for quite a while (a very handy DEILD tool, BTW), and do so by doing little more than continuing to pay attention after I know I'm awake.



I have done that too, when I was not happy with the dream ending, while awake but still in the dream scene trying to change the ending by my desire, but I never thought about DEILDing.




> So I guess the bottom line here is that yes, because dream imagery can be available at the edges of sleep, there's no reason a dream might not turn up during times when you are a bit further away from those edges -- as long as you are paying attention.



Excellent bottom line^^

I have one more question about VILD, I'm not sure if you ever tried it, anyway I'm not talking about VILD technique from someone named Pedro all over internet, but the classical Visually Induced WILD. Now on the question, I'm not sure whether I'm overcomplicated myself or not, while doing the entry. Frankly I still cannot understand fully what is the fine difference between Imagination and Visualization. While I'm doing the entry I'm trying to see the visualization object in front of darkness of my eyelids, but it's tricky and I'm not sure whether I'm doing it right. I can very easily imagine objects or scenery and manipulate them, but the image is not lasting and need to constantly moving it, the colors are washed. There is another form which is more complicated and hardly reproducible, but I'm not sure is it necessary for the entry to occur. The second form is everlasting, full colors and completely in a 3D, something simple like a cube, which I can manipulate freely in the space behind my eyelids, mentally can rotate him in all direction, can change his color on the fly, just like in 3ds max software(if you ever used one). I can only produce small objects like that, my favourite is a model of Ferrari, but this require immense amount of focus and relaxation, but if I produce just one stable object and grab it mentally I get directly into the dream and the object is in my hand, last time was the first time I was able produce a human being. I just hope I overcomplicated myself and there is an easy way of entry. What you think?

----------


## Sageous

> I have one more question about VILD, I'm not sure if you ever tried it, anyway I'm not talking about VILD technique from someone named Pedro all over internet, but the classical Visually Induced WILD. Now on the question, I'm not sure whether I'm overcomplicated myself or not, while doing the entry. *Frankly I still cannot understand fully what is the fine difference between Imagination and Visualization.* While I'm doing the entry I'm trying to see the visualization object in front of darkness of my eyelids, but it's tricky and I'm not sure whether I'm doing it right. I can very easily imagine objects or scenery and manipulate them, but the image is not lasting and need to constantly moving it, the colors are washed. There is another form which is more complicated and hardly reproducible, but I'm not sure is it necessary for the entry to occur. The second form is everlasting, full colors and completely in a 3D, something simple like a cube, which I can manipulate freely in the space behind my eyelids, mentally can rotate him in all direction, can change his color on the fly, just like in 3ds max software(if you ever used one). I can only produce small objects like that, my favourite is a model of Ferrari, but this require immense amount of focus and relaxation, but if I produce just one stable object and grab it mentally I get directly into the dream and the object is in my hand, last time was the first time I was able produce a human being. I just hope I overcomplicated myself and there is an easy way of entry. What you think?



I think there is a fairly substantial difference between imagination and visualization; you might look at it this way:

Imagination is a well of creativity from which you draw things like ideas, images, stories, daydreams, questions, answers.  The depth of that well is up to you, based on your own lifetime experience, mental curiosity, and maybe your interest in a point of view that isn't necessarily held right out in front of you.  Though imagination certainly draws from mental processes like memory, I like to think of it more as a process of consciousness than a function of the brain; kind of a sum of the parts being greater than the whole sort of thing, I guess.

Visualization is the physical function of giving your perception something to look at that otherwise isn't there.  That something is usually something very simple, like that cube, and/or something you remember, like a specific object (i.e., a lamp, or that model Ferrari).  Yes, you can draw from your imagination to choose that object, or maybe alter it to your preferences, and yes, I'm sure that there are folks out there who can do very complex visualizations drawn purely from their imagination, but ultimately (in terms of WILD) visualization is a singular technique that incorporates minimal imagination, if any, that is meant to focus our perception on _something_ while navigating the transition to sleep and dream... and it is in the dream where imagination can take over.  

So, where imagination has a "sum of the parts" nature, visualization is, well, just a part.



Oh, and I am absolutely awful at visualization, personally; hopefully that hasn't colored my thoughts!

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## michael79

> I, for one, have regularly continued a dream after waking, sometimes for quite a while (a very handy DEILD tool, BTW), and do so by doing little more than continuing to pay attention after I know I'm awake.



Today I tried this and when the dream end I didn't move and quickly performed a FILD(not the one described by the author but the real one which the author is doing unconsciously), I returned in the dream fully lucid and a had one hour long intense action packed dream. Frankly to this moment I didn't pay too much attention to DEILD, yes I have done it before, but that is it. After today I can say that DEILD is a very good method of becoming lucid.^^

I wonder which of the three methods yield best results for you, WILD or MILD or DEILD? Which is your prime one?

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## Sageous

^^ Well I'm glad I was of some indirect help; cool!





> I wonder which of the three methods yield best results for you, WILD or MILD or DEILD? Which is your prime one?



DEILD is by far my most-used transition, though I still welcome the occasional DILD, and do still attempt "classic" WILD's regularly (DEILD is a form of WILD transition, BTW). Though I'm not so attached to it anymore, the daytime techniques of MILD can be very helpful to gaining and maintaining a lucid mindset.

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## michael79

> ^^ Well I'm glad I was of some indirect help; cool!



Of course many thanks for the tip. ::goodjob:: 

Today I made an experiment to try to wake up after the dream end and to stay still, with the help of a simple intention mantra "I will wake up at the end of every dream without moving.". It worked like a charm, woke up three times without moving, it seems I'm already trained for this or just my prospective memory is working fine. ^^
Up until now all my lucid dreams required strong conscious effort with many hours of loss sleep, but now thanks to DEILD maybe I can take back my loss sleep. Before now I only think of DEILD as a way to extend a fall apart lucid dream, not as a WILD approach. For two years SSILD was working fine for me, now it only gives me insomnia, I have no idea where is the problem, so I am open to all possible alternatives. Who knows maybe I can start having 30+ LD per month  :wink2:  I just browse through Raduga indirect technique's and I'm good to go.





> DEILD is by far my most-used transition, though I still welcome the occasional DILD, and do still attempt "classic" WILD's regularly (DEILD is a form of WILD transition, BTW). Though I'm not so attached to it anymore, the daytime techniques of MILD can be very helpful to gaining and maintaining a lucid mindset.



If you compare your WILD to DEILD, what is difference in term of quality, are you remembering your goals, your real name or you need to make an effort to do this like in SSILD/DILD?

Of course I have a tip for you about Visualization too, it is not exactly for lucid dreaming, but maybe for a daytime creativity. Some time before I was looking for tips and needed to browse an entire forum made for Artists>.<
The user who wrote this practice strongly connect with my own experience, but I was doing it unconsciously.
Once you reach the Zone(I call it "The Zero Point") your visualization skills increase ten folds. You can use it like meditation.




> The Zone
> 
> To effectively enter the inner world of pure visualization there are many conditions that need to come together but generally all that is needed is effort, practice and basic skills.
> 
> Basic skills such as illuminating all the senses that are involved with the object.
> 
> 1: Know the objects basic level: A piece of rope, it is thick, brown, rough, stale smelling, it looks old and worn, it has a history.
> 
> Play with it: What can you do with it in an ordinary way? I see it i create a horizontal line, i turn it into a circle, i make it spin and tie a knot.
> ...

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## Sageous

> If you compare your WILD to DEILD, what is difference in term of quality, are you remembering your goals, your real name or you need to make an effort to do this like in SSILD/DILD?



It may be because I started doing this stuff long before all these terms and techniques -- and the rules and expectations that eventually accompanied them -- were invented, but I've never known much of a difference between the types of transitions in terms of quality.  For me lucidity is lucidity, no matter how I get there, and the quality depends on my presence in the moment, and little else... and that presence can be just as powerful (or weak, for that matter) whether I just finished a WILD or a DILD.  And of course my WILD and DEILD dream experience would be about the same regardless, since DEILD is essentially a WILD transition without the bells and whistles of a "classic" WILD (aka: a DEILD is a WILD).  

As an aside: I thought SSILD was a WILD technique, since you are maintaining awareness throughout the transition, right?  This reminds me that I meant to include in an earlier post an annoying little clarifier that regular readers of my stuff will surely recognize (I'm sure you already know this but I feel oddly obliged to keep up my quixotic quest to keep the terms straight, in the hope that LD'ers will have an less confusing time of things):

_Keep in mind that DILD and WILD/DEILD are not techniques, but names given to describe the two types of transitions to a lucid dream that are available (DILD = becoming lucid during the dream; WILD = maintaining lucidity through the falling asleep/dreaming process). All the rest are techniques meant to help you achieve a DILD or a WILD (i.e., MILD induces DILD's, WBTB and holding still  help induce WILD's).  This is not semantics, and coming to understand this might help LD'ers, especially novices, to more easily navigate the path to successful LD'ing._





> Of course I have a tip for you about Visualization too...



 Thanks for the tip!  Though I do appreciate it, I have tried many visualization techniques over the years (including some that were very similar to the one you provided), often with substantial time and effort, I just haven't been able to develop the skill; I guess my brain  just isn't wired for it.  Which is kind of ironic because I am a fiction writer and a sculptor and my dreams have always been visually excellent.

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## michael79

> As an aside: I thought SSILD was a WILD technique, since you are maintaining awareness throughout the transition, right?



It can be used as WILD because closely resemble the Raduga direct approach aka cycling 3 techniques/senses, but I'm using it as delayed awareness DILD, I do three cycles and must fall asleep quickly to work, it was working very good for some time, but lately it give me only insomnia.:-\





> This reminds me that I meant to include in an earlier post an annoying little clarifier that regular readers of my stuff will surely recognize (I'm sure you already know this but I feel oddly obliged to keep up my quixotic quest to keep the terms straight, in the hope that LD'ers will have an less confusing time of things):
> 
> _Keep in mind that DILD and WILD/DEILD are not techniques, but names given to describe the two types of transitions to a lucid dream that are available (DILD = becoming lucid during the dream; WILD = maintaining lucidity through the falling asleep/dreaming process). All the rest are techniques meant to help you achieve a DILD or a WILD (i.e., MILD induces DILD's, WBTB and holding still  help induce WILD's).  This is not semantics, and coming to understand this might help LD'ers, especially novices, to more easily navigate the path to successful LD'ing._



Yes, I know, I know, methods and techniques, but I'm not sure about DEILD, as you say DEILD gives WILD and DEILD actually can have second meaning Dream Entry Induced Lucid Dream  :wink2:  For me there are only WILDs and DILDs!




> Which is kind of ironic because I am a fiction writer and a sculptor and my dreams have always been visually excellent.



Maybe pure imagination is just enough for this. BTW when you enter the Zone, you start using your dream mind as a skill booster.

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## PlatoPuss

Hey Sageous,

I've gone through the WILD class and I was hoping for some help. I'm having a horribly hard time waking up in the middle of the night for WBTB. I'll either sleep through my auto snooze-alarms or get so startled by their volume that they scare the crap out of me and wake me up too much. Years ago when I first tried dreaming lucidly I started using an auto snooze alarm until eventually, I was waking up naturally each night. I'd love to get back to waking up naturally (or at all) but I'm not sure how to go about it.

I really don't know where to start, and if it would make more sense to stop everything relating to dreaming (RRCs, DJ, etc) until I can manage to wake up either by alarm or naturally, in the middle of the night. Its been about 2 months now and I'm really frustrated I can't even manage to wake up for my WBTB attempts.

A sidenote: I also seem to be being trolled with my DILD attempts. My dreams have involved me going to get my copy of EWoLD, reminding myself of which dream signs I should perform a RC when I encounter and talking to professors about Lucid dreaming and how excited I am to learn how to do it.

I'm getting pretty frustrated but I'm not giving up. I'd love to hear your thoughts/suggestions and perhaps any resources on autosuggestion. Thank you!

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## PlatoPuss

> Hey Sageous,
> 
> I've gone through the WILD class and I was hoping for some help. I'm having a horribly hard time waking up in the middle of the night for WBTB. I'll either sleep through my auto snooze-alarms or get so startled by their volume that they scare the crap out of me and wake me up too much. Years ago when I first tried dreaming lucidly I started using an auto snooze alarm until eventually, I was waking up naturally each night. I'd love to get back to waking up naturally (or at all) but I'm not sure how to go about it.
> 
> I really don't know where to start, and if it would make more sense to stop everything relating to dreaming (RRCs, DJ, etc) until I can manage to wake up either by alarm or naturally, in the middle of the night. Its been about 2 months now and I'm really frustrated I can't even manage to wake up for my WBTB attempts.
> 
> A sidenote: I also seem to be being trolled with my DILD attempts. My dreams have involved me going to get my copy of EWoLD, reminding myself of which dream signs I should perform a RC when I encounter and talking to professors about Lucid dreaming and how excited I am to learn how to do it.
> 
> I'm getting pretty frustrated but I'm not giving up. I'd love to hear your thoughts/suggestions and perhaps any resources on autosuggestion. Thank you!



Sageous' Reply:

Hi PlatoPuss:

I had two thoughts when I read your PM: First, I wondered why you didn't just go back to your auto-snooze alarm, until you again got in the habit of waking naturally? Second, and the one I'll focus on (because I don't feel any alarms are helpful to WILD, though your auto-snooze plan seems pretty good), is why do a WBTB in the middle of the night?

Instead of trying to force yourself (or, ultimately, train yourself) to wake up in the middle of the night, why not schedule your WILD attempt for a day when you can sleep later in the morning? That way you can do your WBTB when you wake naturally in the early morning, so no alarms are needed. Also, because REM periods tend to be closer together late in a sleep cycle, you should have a better chance of entering a dream during your WILD. This implies that you won't be trying WILD every night, which I think is okay -- anticipating a WILD dive that comes once or twice a week is way better than failing at one every night.

If you think you won't wake naturally, it might just be that you don't notice yourself waking up. We all briefly awaken several times during the night, and do so more often in the morning after 5 or more hours' sleep. The trick here is to learn to notice these awakenings, and then to shake off enough sleep to find the interest in getting up and doing a WBTB... it can be a real trick for some, but with practice these brief awakenings can be registered. The first step toward catching them is setting an intention at bedtime that you will notice your awakening -- thinking about doing this during the day is a good thing, too, so that your mind can become familiar with the idea. The final step is, of course, practice practice practice!

Also:

A sidenote: I also seem to be being trolled with my DILD attempts. My dreams have involved me going to get my copy of EWoLD, reminding myself of which dream signs I should perform a RC when I encounter and talking to professors about Lucid dreaming and how excited I am to learn how to do it.
Yeah, I've been there enough times! Practicing LD'ing has some side effects, I suppose, and that is definitely one of them! There's not much you can do about those dreams except shrug them off; I once tried to make them dream signs, but the, at least for me, never worked.

That's what I got; hope it helped!

Best of Dreams,

Sageous

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## PlatoPuss

Thanks a lot for the response!

As to why I've been trying to do a WBTB in the middle of night is because of my previous experience and quite possibly some misinformation I got years ago from Reddit. I first started with Lucid Dreaming doing the FILD technique, which I'm sure you know is basically CANWILD with the finger movement. It was my impression that an auto snooze alarm during a REM cycle 4.5 or 6 hours into sleep would be the proper place to attempt FILD/DEILD as I would have a strong desire to go back to bed, and if my awareness was high it would only take seconds for me to start experiencing the vibrations or 'woosh' as I used to call it. Eventually, and not with any intention to stop,  I wound up ceasing to do the finger movements, as I was experiencing the vibrations and HI without it, which is why I believe that what I was doing was really just DEILD.

Based on this logic, I thought the middle of the night (4.5 / 6 hours of sleep) would again be the right time for my attempts at WILD/DEILD or whatever you may call them. I've also tried training myself with the auto snooze alarm and haven't had any success with it. I'm honestly pretty amazed that somehow I'll either sleep through the alarm or wake up so incredibly startled.

Note: I've had close to 20 vibrations/HI sessions during my LD attempts but to this day only have had one lucid dream, lasting a minute and was the second time I ever experienced the vibrations and HI. For the longest time I would get so excited by the vibrations I would wake up with my heart beating out of my chest in anticipation, now I don't even see the road marker. I'm well aware of the importance of ignoring these vibrations et al, and my mantra 'float' is what I'm planning on using to keep my focus on my awareness, relax and wait rather than focus on the HI.

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## Sageous

^^ Though you had no questions, maybe I can try to clear up a couple of things:





> As to why I've been trying to do a WBTB in the middle of night is because of my previous experience and quite possibly some misinformation I got years ago from Reddit. I first started with Lucid Dreaming doing the FILD technique, which I'm sure you know is basically CANWILD with the finger movement. It was my impression that an auto snooze alarm during a REM cycle 4.5 or 6 hours into sleep would be the proper place to attempt FILD/DEILD as I would have a strong desire to go back to bed, and if my awareness was high it would only take seconds for me to start experiencing the vibrations or 'woosh' as I used to call it. Eventually, and not with any intention to stop,  I wound up ceasing to do the finger movements, as I was experiencing the vibrations and HI without it, which is why I believe that what I was doing was really just DEILD.



 Hmm... misinformation indeed... 

First, FILD and CANWILD are techniques for achieving a WILD, which is not a technique, but the name given to one of the (only) two types of transitions to lucidity; all those techniques are meant to induce either a WILD transition (lucidity achieved by not losing waking-life self-awareness from wake-to-sleep-to dream) or DILD transition (lucidity achieved during a non-lucid dream, after you are asleep).  In other words, WILD and DILD are the things you are trying to make happen with the techniques, and therefore cannot be technique unto themselves.  This is not semantics, or a "whatever you may call them" moment; if you can come to understand that WILD and DILD are not techniques but the_ targets_ of techniques, lucidity might be gained much more easily.

Unless I misunderstood, you may have been woefully misinformed about DEILD, which is also not a technique but a form of WILD transition.  DEILD, or Dream Exit Initiated Lucid Dream, is a transition that occurs when you are waking up from a (usually) lucid dream, and allow yourself to return to lucidity after a _very_ brief awakening without losing your waking-life self-awareness.  I'm not sure how you're equating it with FILD, a technique for inducing "classic" WILD's; also, vibrations and HI rarely accompany DEILD's, so I'm not sure why you're making the association... Maybe it's time to unlearn some of the stuff the good folks at Reddit have fed you?  :wink2:  

Again, since DEILD's do not involve WBTB, you generally cannot experience one after you get up and go back to bed (you potentially _can_ experience a DEILD if you can hold onto your last dream throughout your WBTB time, but that can be very difficult).  You were likely having a "classic" WILD in those moments and, honestly, I would love to be able to achieve one so quickly!  ... Well, okay; you were achieving _half_ of a WILD:  If you can persevere until you are able to ignore those vibrations and HI (the noise) until your body fully falls asleep, you will be rewarded with a lucid dream.  And yes, if you are able to hold onto your awareness through the noise, then FILD might not have been necessary, since your head was already in the right place. Maintaining your mantra through the noise might help here, though, to keep the noise from convincing your head to leave that place.





> Based on this logic, I thought the middle of the night (4.5 / 6 hours of sleep) would again be the right time for my attempts at WILD/DEILD or whatever you may call them. I've also tried training myself with the auto snooze alarm and haven't had any success with it. I'm honestly pretty amazed that somehow I'll either sleep through the alarm or wake up so incredibly startled.



This one I suppose is my bad, as I never thought of waking after 5 hours' sleep to be the middle of the night -- I guess I just go to bed too late to see it that way!  Oh, wait, unless you sleep 10-12 hours per night, which would make me very jealous! Anyway, yes, awakening after 4.5 - 6 hours of sleep is an excellent target for WBTB, and if that was your target you were right in the first place. Since, as I think I said already, awakenings generally tend to be more frequent by then, with some practice you ought to be able to notice them without that pesky alarm. 





> Note: I've had close to 20 vibrations/HI sessions during my LD attempts but to this day only have had one lucid dream, lasting a minute and was the second time I ever experienced the vibrations and HI. For the longest time I would get so excited by the vibrations I would wake up with my heart beating out of my chest in anticipation, now I don't even see the road marker. I'm well aware of the importance of ignoring these vibrations et al, and my mantra 'float' is what I'm planning on using to keep my focus on my awareness, relax and wait rather than focus on the HI.



I think I already responded to this so just a quick *tl;dr:* stay calm, ignore the noise, and let your body fall to sleep... oh, and be sure to maintain that mantra until you are in the dream!

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## PlatoPuss

Hey Sageous,

Currently, I've been testing out using a WBTB session of around 10 minutes while reading EWOLD before going back to bed and repeating my mantra. I was hoping you could help me understand the physiology of the timing of WILD a little more. 

Is there any inherent difference or reason why one should prolong their WBTB session? My understanding is its function is to bring a little more awareness to the conscious brain and away from the dreaming brain. I've recently started wondering how/if the length of the WBTB session relates to one's REM cycle(s).  In other words, if I have a 10 Minute WBTB session instead of a 45-minute session, am I ensuring I'll be lying in bed for an extra 35 minutes before I hit a REM cycle / can have a successful WILD? Or is it rather that some individuals need more time to get more awake/aware and for others less time.

Thanks

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## Sageous

^^ On its face your question seems straightforward, and one that I'm pretty sure LaBerge addresses somewhere in EWOLD (though its been decades since I read it, so I could be wrong); but then I got to thinking:

First, a little clarification (and this is not semantics): there is no "dreaming brain" and "conscious brain," there is just your brain, and your consciousness is present in all of it.  Try not to separate your Self into independent units, even in conversation, lest you find yourself creating battles that never had to be fought.  It's _all you_, in the end, and to know this will only help you to maintain your waking-life self-awareness as your brain goes about functions that usually don't include that sort of awareness.  I know that wasn't what you wre asking, but I figured I'd throw it in. [Full disclosure:  I often refer to the unconscious functions that deliver dream content as your "dreaming mind," but by saying this I'm not implying that there is a separate brain inside you that operates your dreaming processes; it just sounds better than "unconscious."].  Anyway:

Ten minutes is a pretty short term for a WBTB -- that barely gives you time to get out of bed! -- but if it works for you, then it is plenty of time, right? There's certainly no reason to prolong it to last longer than the minimum time you need to successfully complete your WILD... just as there is no reason to avoid extending your "up" time if 10 minutes isn't working. Practice will find the WBTB time that works for you, not stuff others tell you.   Now to the other things:

To me, WBTB does indeed serve the two purposes you basically mentioned: to rouse waking-life self-awareness as much as possible without abandoning your sleep cycle, and to help ensure that you "catch REM" when you go back to sleep, but you might be reading a bit too much into the second part, which is not a surprise to me, given the amount of attention Rapid Eye Movement -- the movements your eyes make as they are following the action in a dream -- gets in the LD'ing community.  

Over the years I've come to think less to very little of the whole "catching REM" concept, for two reasons.  First, if you do your WBTB late in your sleep cycle, your REM periods are so close together that you probably will be pretty close to your next period whenever you go back to sleep (so there should be no 35 minute waiting period after a 10 minute WBTB); also, be wary of the standards set by sleep science, as they are generally averages/standards based on a surprisingly small group of subjects who, in my mind, tend to share similar physiological traits (like being able to go to sleep in a lab while wired up to machines).  Second, and maybe more important here, is to keep in mind that REM periods aren't a thing unto themselves, but a measurable symptom of something else: _dreaming_.  

In other words, it isn't REM that causes dreams, but _dreams that cause_ REM.  You are in REM whenever you are dreaming, regardless of any proscribed schedule.  This means, in essence (and with the possible exception of Delta sleep), that you can start a REM period whenever you feel like it, assuming that you are able to successfully WILD/fall asleep, and form dreams.  There really is, in the end, no need to catch REM at all; only a need to get your next dream started.  The only physiological bit you must heed is keeping your body as close to a sleeping/dreaming state as you can during WBTB, so you can be sure to continue your sleep cycle, and just get back to sleep, when you lie back down.  [Full disclosure #2:  I wrote the DVA WILD class years ago, while I was still okay with the "catching REM" concept, so what I'm saying here might not quite match what I said there (I never edited because, well, in that context it still seems to work!).]

With regard to WBTB, physiologically speaking, I think that the real danger with timing is staying up too long, and finding yourself fully awake and unable to complete a successful transition to sleep and dream, lucid or not.  And yes, _of course_ some individuals will need more (or less) WBTB time to fully gather their waking-life self-awareness without losing touch with their sleep cycle -- and there is the reason to experiment until you find the time that works for you... so feel free to keep testing!

So I guess the *tl;dr:* here is that, physiologically speaking, try not to give too much thought to REM periods; and mind even less the sketchy science behind when they are detected; just_ know_ that you dream more often late in your sleep cycle as your mind is more actively approaching waking up to a new day, and _know_ that this will be especially likely if you intend to dream when you return to sleep.  REM isn't a thing you hit; it's just stuff your eyes do to follow the action when you are dreaming, so you will "catch" REM whenever you start dreaming, even if that happens at a moment that isn't indicated on those charts.

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## michael79

Just read something interesting that can contribute to this thread, I hope this can help people in their wild process.




> When people think, they have a tendency to talk to themselves.  Even if you are not consciously aware of this subvocalization, your body, more specifically, your tongue is.  It will tense up when you are thinking, ready for action. 
> 
> You may experience this as a general rigidness of the tongue or it may lift up off of the floor of your mouth or pull at the back of your throat or you may not feel it consciously at all. If you relax your tongue completely, it is very difficult to talk to yourself.  Go ahead, I know you have to try it.  Thus, relaxing  your tongue makes it much more difficult to think also.  This simple technique can help you stop the internal chatter and quiet your mind when meditating or when you just need a moment of peace. Just relaxing your tongue radically reduces the active thinking, beta brain waves and stills the mind.



Relaxing the tongue is such an effective practice that, in her book, *Awakening the Mind: A Guide to Harnessing the Power of Your Brainwaves*, Anna Wise, says If you take nothing else away with you from reading this book, you will have gained enormously from this one practice.

She offers the following exercises:




> -Close your eyes and allow your tongue to relax.
> 
> -No one will be looking at you, so its OK to let your mouth hang open slightly.
> 
> -Just simply let your tongue go, especially the back of your tongue.
> 
> -As you exhale, feel it let go even more.
> 
> -Exaggerate the relaxation.
> ...

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## michael79

> *
> In other words, it isn't REM that causes dreams, but dreams that cause REM.* You are in REM whenever you are dreaming, regardless of any proscribed schedule. This means, in essence (and with the possible exception of Delta sleep), that you can start a REM period whenever you feel like it, assuming that you are able to successfully WILD/fall asleep, and form dreams. There really is, in the end, no need to catch REM at all; only a need to get your next dream started. The only physiological bit you must heed is keeping your body as close to a sleeping/dreaming state as you can during WBTB, so you can be sure to continue your sleep cycle, and just get back to sleep, when you lie back down. [Full disclosure #2: I wrote the DVA WILD class years ago, while I was still okay with the "catching REM" concept, so what I'm saying here might not quite match what I said there (I never edited because, well, in that context it still seems to work!).]



That is very interesting, you reached the same conclusion as me and because of that I have ~5 hours long WILDs. :smiley:

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## michael79

> [Full disclosure #2: I wrote the DVA WILD class years ago, while I was still okay with the "catching REM" concept, so what I'm saying here might not quite match what I said there (I never edited because, well, in that context it still seems to work!).]



You are misleading people like that, you really need to change it.

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## Sageous

^^ Well, though I still think that, as I said already, in the context of this class "catching REM" is still a valid, workable term with no one being misled in any real way, I'll give your suggestion some thought.  Thanks for your input, regardless!

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## maxmin099

From some of your posts I get that: it's a bad time to attempt WILD during a night's sleep and practice is very important for WILD.
So when I go to bed at night, is it a good idea to attempt WILD just to practice? These days I am trying this and failing after some point, it's like I am trying to relax and suddenly I wake up at morning. 
Will those failed WILD attempts help me in future?

And one more question, about waking at night:
I know alarms shock me and sometimes they even make me forget my dreams just in a second, but I also know that I can't remember my wakings at night without alarm. I mean at past I've set multiple alarms for a few days, for WBTB and good dream recall, after those days I stopped setting alarms and kept waking after dreams. And after some, I gave up writing my dreams and my sleep went back to normal, I go bed at night, I wake up at morning.
So if alarms are bad, how can achieve wakings at night?

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## Sageous

Yes, Maxmin099, I think those failed attempts at bedtime will help, since they amount to practice, and successful WILDing does require practice.  Even if/though your bedtime WILDs fail, this practice will help you to become familiar with the process so that when you do finally find your WBTB timing, you might be ready with a working WILD routine as well.  Also, the mindset you have with you at bedtime during these tries might just lead to a DILD, and there's nothing wrong with that!

If your _only_ successful path to a WBTB is with an alarm, then  go ahead and use one.  They do make alarms these days that are more gentle than your average buzzer; maybe you can try out one of those in order to avoid, or at least lesson, the shock of an immediate wake-up.  From what you said, though, it seems that using the alarm for a time helps train you to become able eventually to awaken on your own, so it might not be a permanent thing anyway.   

Also, you made a good point on your own above: It might not have been the alarms that was the problem at all, but the fact that you stopped paying attention to your dreams (you gave up writing your dreams).  So maybe the next step is to go back to writing down your dreams, or at least to actually get up for a moment after a wake-up so you don't go back to sleep immediately; WBTB, after all, stands for Wake _Back_ to Bed, and not Wake _Stay_ in Bed.  This not only helps with the awakening process, but also with developing a lucid mindset:  In time -- with practice -- you might find yourself catching those moments when you wake naturally (especially after 5 or more hours' sleep) with your recent dreams still on hand and your mind interested in dreaming, and not just going back to sleep, and writing them down might not be necessary (though still a good idea!).  These things tend to make WBTB much easier, and WILD more likely. 

So, in short: Yes, any practice is better than none, so attempting a WILD at bedtime can have value, even if it fails. Go ahead and use that alarm if it's necessary, but also go back to writing down your dreams upon wake-ups, and try getting out of bed after a wake-up.

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## maxmin099

Thanks for the answer.
My self suggestion worked perfect, better than I've imagined. Even though I set an alarm, tonight I woke for 3 times without the alarm. I had to cancel the alarm.
I wrote my dreams but it was mostly like Wake Stay in Bed, I will correct this behavior like you said.
By the way, I've started applying your tutorial. I'm doing RRCs as much as I can (yes, not more than 3 in an hour). Is this thread a good place to share my experiences on that?
Edit: Ah, okay I saw it, it's the other thread.

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## Tiktaalik

Just read the above comments about catching the REM cycles and thats cleared up something Ive been pondering about for a while. I was wondering whether catching those natural awakenings was a sign my cycle had ended and thats why I was struggling with WILDs afterwards. 

I wonder if you could clear something else up for me? Im quite good now at waking naturally in the night and my first reaction when I catch these awakenings is to lay still and recall my dreams which I do for 5-10 minutes. If I dont fall back asleep (often I do!) I then get up use the toilet and then repeat a mantra as I fall back asleep. This can be quite effective for DILD but doesnt seem to be working for my WILDs/ DEILDs. 

I worry I may be putting too much emphasis on recall beforehand? When it comes to DEILDs is it advisable to catch that brief awakening and go straight back to sleep without doing any recall or waking yourself too much? Or is it better to wake the mind a bit first? I struggle getting back to sleep if I wake myself for too long so Im wondering if Im better keeping myself in that sleepier state when attempting DEILDs and WILDs. 

Thanks in advance.

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## Sivason

> so I’m wondering if I’m better keeping myself in that sleepier state when attempting DEILDs and WILDs.



Hi there, I am not the teacher and me and sageous each have styles developed independently. For the most part we have similar recommendations. I see your question has sat awhile so I will attempt to answer. If you are working on recall you should take a short time to bring the memories into waking life and record or write down key words that will help you in your attempt to recall them later. I also want to try DEILD each time so it is very important to stay mostly asleep. This is a learned skill, to be able to operate with out wakefully engaging your mind. Wake, think what just happened, record some key words, barely move during this, back to sleep. If your goal is 100% DEILD and recall is not a focus you keep your awareness at the lowest level you can and still be aware. In WILD you can get  up and pee. I find that about perfect but I do not turn on lights and I still keep myself from fully awakening. Hope any of that helps. Sageous may have more to add or things he teaches different.

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## Sageous

^^ Wow, I totally missed that one; thanks Sivason!

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## Tiktaalik

> ^^ Wow, I totally missed that one; thanks Sivason!



Thanks for the tips Sivason! Ive been lucky enough to have 2 intentional WILDs this month! 

Actually, you did reply Sageous but in another thread I started on the subject! So thank you as well for the helpful advice. I will attach your response below encase anyone is interested. 







> I have a quick and hopefully helpful observation:
> 
> Quote Originally Posted by Tiktaalik  View Post
> So far Ive had 3 successful DEILDs but all 3 were sort of spontaneous (or so they seemed!) I usually awake from a dream when it happens but not fully and remain in that sleepy in between state and manage to transition from there. 
> 
> The numerous times Ive tried to do it willingly after waking though I have failed. I struggle with getting back to sleep and probably wake myself up too much by focusing on the methods.
> 
> So I have a few questions which I was hoping to get some advice on.
> All DEILD's are literally spontaneous, because you do them immediately upon the moment you realize you are beginning to awaken; so what you're doing was actually the right thing. Also, in my opinion, the ideal DEILD conditions include not fully waking and remaining in that sleepy between state to best manage the transition back to dream. So you are clearly on the right track with DEILD. Except for one thing, I would recommend not adding anything to your DEILD routine (or anti-routine, I suppose), and just keep doing what you're doing. 
> ...

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## Sageous

^^ Thanks for posting, Tiktaalik, and for reassuring me that I did not suffer a Senior Moment after all!  :wink2:

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## michael79

> [Note: This might run counter to what I said in the timing section of my WILD class; I guess *my knowledge/opinions have evolved* over the last decade.]



 ::goodjob2::

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## JonoJono

How do you find your optimum time for WBTB, and how do you just get up without an alarm? I don't usually naturally wake up during the night, so how would I go about finding a good time for WBTB?

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## Sageous

^^ How to find the perfect WBTB time? Three words: Practice, practice, practice!

Seriously.  Since the best WBTB time -- and stay-up time-- is unique to you, the best way to find that time is through experimentation.  Try different times until you find the combination that works best for you.  It may be time consuming, but it really is that simple.

Regarding alarms:  Yes, you might need them at first, but, with time and practice you might find that you do not need them so much.  This is because we all have natural awakenings at several times during the sleep cycle, with those brief awakenings occuring more frequently very late in the sleep cycle.  The trouble is that, in your normal, sleepy, non-lucid state, you never notice them. But as you do your experimentation, you will find yourself noticing more and more of those awakenings.  As you become accustomed to noticing them, you will find that you will not need an alarm to awaken you.  In other words: in time, and with practice, you will have no trouble noticing -- and taking advantage of -- those moments of brief awakenibgs you have every night.  It's all a matter of experience, expectation, and, yes, practice.

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## JonoJono

> ^^ How to find the perfect WBTB time? Three words: Practice, practice, practice!
> 
> Seriously.  Since the best WBTB time -- and stay-up time-- is unique to you, the best way to find that time is through experimentation.  Try different times until you find the combination that works best for you.  It may be time consuming, but it really is that simple.
> 
> Regarding alarms:  Yes, you might need them at first, but, with time and practice you might find that you do not need them so much.  This is because we all have natural awakenings at several times during the sleep cycle, with those brief awakenings occuring more frequently very late in the sleep cycle.  The trouble is that, in your normal, sleepy, non-lucid state, you never notice them. But as you do your experimentation, you will find yourself noticing more and more of those awakenings.  As you become accustomed to noticing them, you will find that you will not need an alarm to awaken you.  In other words: in time, and with practice, you will have no trouble noticing -- and taking advantage of -- those moments of brief awakenibgs you have every night.  It's all a matter of experience, expectation, and, yes, practice.



Thanks, I will keep this in mind!

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