# Lucid Dreaming > Dream Control >  >  Dream Control Mastery Tutorial

## Mylynes

*UNDER CONSTRUCTION*
I am going to work on this as a part 2 to the old vision control tutorial I wrote: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...-tutorial.html

The old thread got kind of long, so I would like to start into this and go into how to incorporate that system into dream control. Will go into how I developed my own dream control abilities, and how others could develop the same or similar abilities.


I use something I will call Omnitech for a huge chunk of my dream control. It is a combination of personal experience, the http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...-tutorial.html , and psionics tweaked for dream control use. It allows me to directly manipulate anything I can sense, through manipulation of my senses to create a sort of blueprint or thoughtform, which then is fleshed out with psi to manifest my will.

I can create nearly anything I can imagine with ease. I have over 100 worlds created which I tend to visit during my very long (time dilation) trips into the dream plane. Most of them have vastly different rules which has an effect on the lifeforms there. My dreams are very stable, something doesn't vanish simply because I turn my back on it for a while. I enjoy splitting my awareness and using it to fill out various crazy forms. I love being able to see out of their eyes, hear what they hear, feel what they feel, even if it is a giant tentacle beast covered in eyeballs, or a small fly/dragon hybrid.

Will also work on collecting some links for references.
This is how I maintain 100% lucidity (all my dreams are lucid): http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...0%25-time.html
Discussion on dream control limitations: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...mitations.html



Coming Soon

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## clearthoughter

Can you elaborate on time dilation too?

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## Mylynes

> Can you elaborate on time dilation too?



Sure.

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## Baron Samedi

> *UNDER CONSTRUCTION* I enjoy splitting my awareness and using it to fill out various crazy forms. I love being able to see out of their eyes, hear what they hear, feel what they feel, even if it is a giant tentacle beast covered in eyeballs, or a small fly/dragon hybrid.
> 
> Coming Soon



Haha. Reminds me of the time when I first got into lucid dreaming, and I battled you in Outer Space. You turned into a big room surrounding me, every wall, ceiling floor covered in all kinds of eyeballs staring at me, you freak! I was really creeped out. lol I didn't know how to fight you, so I think I teleported away. 

Maybe you can do a dream control class in the DV Academy, or if you want, you can run a class in my sub-forum, Dreamwalkers. People keep joining it, but no one posts anything. Maybe you can get some life back into it with your creepy creative vibe. Any time you want to start a Dream Control class in my sub-forum, the invitation is open. Songi Klara!

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## Mylynes

> Haha. Reminds me of the time when I first got into lucid dreaming, and I battled you in Outer Space. You turned into a big room surrounding me, every wall, ceiling floor covered in all kinds of eyeballs staring at me, you freak! I was really creeped out. lol I didn't know how to fight you, so I think I teleported away. 
> 
> Maybe you can do a dream control class in the DV Academy, or if you want, you can run a class in my sub-forum, Dreamwalkers. People keep joining it, but no one posts anything. Maybe you can get some life back into it with your creepy creative vibe. Any time you want to start a Dream Control class in my sub-forum, the invitation is open. Songi Klara!



I remember that one lol. Not sure about doing a class right now because I don't think I'm active enough. Maybe later. Need to work some more on this thread sometime soon, plan to go into dream combat, TD, + other stuff. Would check out dreamwalkers but it says it requires a password. Could pm it to me sometime if you want. Been hanging out at the IOSDP area some too.

Blessed be.

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## Validus

Hey, looking forward to reading this once completed. I am quite avid in the fields of Vision Control, which, is how i found this site; researching WILD techniques that would allow me to use my Vision Control skills to induce WILD's. However, all I found was this Advanced Vision Control Tutorial . It provided some new ideas and techniques on Vision Control, but not much linking back to Lucidity. So, I've been running experiments since then on LDing and Lucidity, might i add that I've hauled in some nice results! Anyways, Again, Look forward to the completion of this tutorial, as I hope I can gain some knowledge on a couple things.

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## Mylynes

Having trouble editing my own tutorials, which kind of makes things more difficult then they should be. Mod said he could do edits for me, but would be a pain to ask a mod to edit my posts every time I needed to update something. There are broken links that need to be taken out, typos that need fixing, additional info and links I would like to add, ect. I can understand the vision control tutorial being old enough to not let me edit now but I also can't edit the OP in this thread saying that it is too old.

Asking a mod and posted in help section on this, so maybe something can be figured out.

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## Baron Samedi

> Having trouble editing my own tutorials, which kind of makes things more difficult then they should be. Mod said he could do edits for me, but would be a pain to ask a mod to edit my posts every time I needed to update something. There are broken links that need to be taken out, typos that need fixing, additional info and links I would like to add, ect. I can understand the vision control tutorial being old enough to not let me edit now but I also can't edit the OP in this thread saying that it is too old.
> 
> Asking a mod and posted in help section on this, so maybe something can be figured out.



I think I can give you permissions to edit whatever of your posts you want in Dreamwalkers sub-forum, but not sure.

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## Mylynes

Ok so yea, I think I will just move everything to either the IOSDP or Dreamwalkers, though I am leaning towards IOSDP just because it is public and isn't password protected.

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## StephL

Why not ask - like Nomad with his experiments - to not post in here any more - but open a discussion thread on this thread and have a mod move over the posts from others - maybe delete some of your´s - one time - you get rid of what you don´t want here.
Then go post after post.

I also felt very restricted on DV with my editing - being used to do that regardless of when I put my mind to it on another forum.
Naja - I think it is three days limit.

I have posted on a thread on this topic a while ago - maybe one could take the topic up once more.
I tend to open threads with a lot of text, links and pictures and also really tend to them - at least sometimes for a short while - but longer than three days - and I had surely at least 20 impulses to edit, which I couldn´t follow.
Ask a mod is ridiculous for anything else than really relevant matters.
Not concerns of style and wording - wanting a certain smiley, in a silly mood* - most posts of some length I edit at least once anyway - so why not some more..?

Anyways - since I suppose to find very interesting things in here -  I would really beg you to stay in Dream Control - since that is what it is about.
Do not obscure access for those, who are interested in what you got to say - but wont ever enter the password-area(s) or take note of the IOSDP!

*prettyplease.gif

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## Mylynes

> Why not ask - like Nomad with his experiments - to not post in here any more - but open a discussion thread on this thread and have a mod move over the posts from others - maybe delete some of your´s - one time - you get rid of what you don´t want here.
> Then go post after post.
> 
> I also felt very restricted on DV with my editing - being used to do that regardless of when I put my mind to it on another forum.
> Naja - I think it is three days limit.
> 
> I have posted on a thread on this topic a while ago - maybe one could take the topic up once more.
> I tend to open threads with a lot of text, links and pictures and also really tend to them - at least sometimes for a short while - but longer than three days - and I had surely at least 20 impulses to edit, which I couldn´t follow.
> Ask a mod is ridiculous for anything else than really relevant matters.
> ...



I could move to IOSDP, this thread would get moved or deleted(since it never made it out of early construction and went off topic anyways), the vision control thread could stay, but I could post a sort of hub here in dream control in which I could have all my links compiled to my stuff in the IOSDP.

Edit:
Also, I doubt it will lead to any changes but was curious to hear other ppls opinion so I just made this poll: http://www.dreamviews.com/lounge/148...dit-limit.html

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## Baron Samedi

gab has probably given you Admin permission in Dreamwalkers sub-forum. She said it should go through. Feel free to re-post or do whatever there. You can copy old posts and put them in Dreamwalkers, but still leave the original copies in the main forums, if you wish.

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## Mylynes

For those interested in time dilation: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...echniques.html

I was going to make a separate thread on dream combat and link to it here, but then things started getting screwy. Anyways, I'll go into that some here, particularly I'm in the mood to write about defense and why combat became boring for me because of becoming like a more complicated game of tictactoe in which neither side can win if both players know how to play.

*The ultimate defense for dream and astral combat:*
This is what i personally use for defense, though i won't reveal everything for my own sake, good to hold onto some secrets here just in case lol. I usually use a combination of techs depending on my mood, though my seeds are always ready if needed.

1. Shielding - Shielding comes in many forms, from simple bubble shields and body armor to more complex shielding such as spatial manipulation shields (throw a punch and when your fist gets too close to me it vanishes and reappears elsewhere), energy shields which rotate at high speeds or are programmed to reflect or counterattack, ect

2. Phasing - Like a no clipping mode cheat, stuff goes right through you as if you were a ghost.

3. Disconnection from self - You don't actually have a physical body, so you can turn pain off and physical attacks will become useless if your body is more of a thoughtform. Especially at first it may help if you view your dream body in third person. Your body can be mutilated beyond recognition with you laughing because you can choose to feel nothing and regenerate at will.

4. Dodging - If they can't touch you, it's hard for them to harm you with physical attacks. You can try to make yourself faster up to a certain point, but if you use TD creatively then speed, from your own perspective becomes irrelevant. If you can manipulate your perceived flow of time from only your own perspective, then no matter how fast your opponent is, to you they can appear slower than yourself and you can take your time in deciding how to respond to their attacks. It is unclear to me what would happen if 2 ppl skilled at this TD tech were have a battle of speed vs speed. I suppose it would depend on how far they can push the TD.

5. Consciousness Seeds - The real ultimate defense. Everything else is just for fun really. This is also pretty advanced and difficult to learn how to do and maintain properly. Similar to Naraku from Inuyasha, or really more similar to Voldemort in Harry Potter. You create thoughtforms which contain a tiny piece of your consciousness and the blueprint required to fully restore your mind if needed. Kind of like saving a backup of your mind on a harddrive in case you need to restore later. These come in many flavors with various programs designed to keep them hidden and let them know when to activate without giving an attacker any way to trace a link between you and the seeds in order to wipe you out completely. Many seeds i do keep linked up, if not directly to me than through each other in a sort of web keeping them all connected. Others i keep completely severed from both myself and the web. Most of these severed seeds are set to send out a "ping" at various intervals and then wait for a ping back from the seed network to make sure everything is ok and they don't need to activate. Some of these self-replicate and hide duplicates of themselves which do the same. Other types of seeds i will keep secret and not talk about. These seeds are hidden far and wide. Some deep within my own mind, some in other beings, some in random pocket dimensions, some which constantly teleport around to random places, and again some hiding places i will keep secret lol.

*Some offensive stuff i like to use:*
I use way too many offensive and defensive techs to list them all, but I'll get into some of my more fun/useful ones i like to use.
1. Black hole bombs - Nuff said lol, but just incase, these are thoughtforms similar to small energy balls which are designed to create supermassive black holes when detonated. Might want to shield yourself from gravity somehow while using these.

2. Sensory Overload - This is more useful against other real people from the waking world or tougher opponents. It's designed to overwhelm all or as many as possible of their senses simultaneously. Blinding light as bright as you can make it for their vision, the loudest psychic scream you can create for their hearing, imagine the worste possible pain you can then amplify and transmit it to them to overwhelm their sense of touch, ect. I know the whole 5 senses thing is bs but you can still run with this and get creative too. For example extreme darkness can also be blinding/disorienting but it's easier to counter and lacks the pain that super bright light can cause.

3. Caging/Trapping - One off my favorite cages involves placing them inside a room or Labryth which is cut off from the outside world, extremely hard to escape, and uses extreme TD to where they could wander around lost for many years. Is more effective when you also attack their lucidity, for obvious reasons.

That's all i have the time for now writing stuff of the top of my head but I would like to add much more later.

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## StephL

Not having your belief system and doubting the real life dimensions, of what you got to say - I am very fascinated by your reports and tips anyway.
Impressive what you can do in your LDs!

And thank you for sharing it in dream control, where people - esp. also those of the un-beyonder persuasion - can gain a real profit from your experiences!

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## Mylynes

I'll be leaving tomorrow, and likely won't be returning. Moving on to a better place. Sry guys.

And though i head into the afterlife, no I'm not suicidal and don't plan on killing myself. Just going to attempt to dream the eternal dream. Peace out DV.

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## Baron Samedi

> I'll be leaving tomorrow, and likely won't be returning. Moving on to a better place. Sry guys.
> 
> And though i head into the afterlife, no I'm not suicidal and don't plan on killing myself. Just going to attempt to dream the eternal dream. Peace out DV.



Where will your physical body go?

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## Mylynes

> Where will your physical body go?



Not sure, but i wrote a will and some notes to my family/friends just in case. I could maybe die, or end up in a coma. Or maybe i could eventually find a way to send something back in my place. So maybe my body could somehow wake up without me in it. I don't know though, just guessing. Perhaps i could split my consciousness in a way that allows most of me to remain dreaming while simultaneously a very small and separated part of me returns to control my body.

Perhaps i could find a way for an external being to possess my body. Or maybe even a DC or thoughtform.

Look for me on the other side. 1 of me will always be in the deathstarlike space ship which acts as the hub for my multiverse. There should be a portal to the ship on top of a pyramid on the green moon.

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## EbbTide000

Mylynes

Bosnak says we are not a single (unified) personally but a collection of dissociative states.  

That interest me because I'm on a disability pension for Dissociative Disorder. 

Maybe because all humans are just a collection of dissociative states is why you can do what you can do.

If folk would just do WakingNomad's 50 week rv dream game, folk would get used to being a collection of dissociative states and stop living in the delusion that they are One single and limited personality. 





> Saturday 28 February 2009
>  1:00PM
> 
> Jungian psychoanalyst and psychotherapist *Robert Bosnak is a dream worker*. To him dreams are an ecosystem of imaginingspowerful bodily experiences populated by characters with their own intelligences.
> 
> * When you encounter the images of your dreaming mind do you find one Self, or many?**



Listen to this 30 minute interview and/or read the transcript. I think you will like it Mylynes

***

Dreams: the body alive! (Part 1 of 2) - All In The Mind - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

***





> Not sure, but i wrote a will and some notes to my family/friends just in case. I could maybe die, or end up in a coma. Or maybe i could eventually find a way to send something back in my place. So maybe my body could somehow wake up without me in it. I don't know though, just guessing. Perhaps i could split my consciousness in a way that allows most of me to remain dreaming while simultaneously a very small and separated part of me returns to control my body.
> 
> Perhaps i could find a way for an external being to possess my body. Or maybe even a DC or thoughtform.
> 
> Look for me on the other side. 1 of me will always be in the deathstarlike space ship which acts as the hub for my multiverse. There should be a portal to the ship on top of a pyramid on the green moon.

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## Intrepidity

> And though i head into the afterlife, no I'm not suicidal and don't plan on killing myself. Just going to attempt to dream the eternal dream. Peace out DV.



If you are able to return to the physical world will you have the wisdom and knowledge of someone who has lived hundreds of thousands of years?

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## HanZartaC

> If you are able to return to the physical world will you have the wisdom and knowledge of someone who has lived hundreds of thousands of years?



If he does wake up eventually, my theory is that he won't know where he is or where he's been and all that, he will have faint memory (or none at all) of his waking life. The reason to this is because the brain's memory is about 2.5 petabytes, which is equal to letting a DVR record TV for 300 years straight. "Eternity" is a lot more than that. And to dream forever would mean to sleep forever, so he will eventually die or wake up. But we don't know what's going to happen after death though. This is my theory.

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## Intrepidity

> And to dream forever would mean to sleep forever, so he will eventually die or wake up. But we don't know what's going to happen after death though. This is my theory.



I was of the belief that his entire dream would take place within a single night using time dilation techniques. For the dream to be infinite real time would have to stand completely still in relation to dream time otherwise the dream would end eventually. I myself am rather skeptical that a dream could really last forever even if in our minds it may feel like forever. 





> If he does wake up eventually, my theory is that he won't know where he is or where he's been and all that, he will have faint memory (or none at all) of his waking life



This was similar to what I had in mind originally, but despite the initial confusion of being thrust back into reality he would in theory still retain some of the knowledge along with many of the instinctive behaviours and habits he learned while dreaming.

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## Baron Samedi

Well, WTF... I think Mylynes will probably sleep about 30 or 40 hours, then wake up. But, who knows?

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## Electrode

I dont mean to be an ass or anything but all of his posts seem to me like written by a 13 year old who just watched too much Naruto/DBZ or something.

Like seriously?

If this was all meant as a joke or something then I guess I'm a retard.

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## Baron Samedi

> I dont mean to be an ass or anything but all of his posts seem to me like written by a 13 year old who just watched too much Naruto/DBZ or something.
> 
> Like seriously?
> 
> If this was all meant as a joke or something then I guess I'm a retard.



Don't try these techniques.

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## Electrode

> Don't try these techniques.



What techniques? These aren't techniques its just pointless rambling that has nothing to do with lucid dreaming. I looked into his posts/threads a bit more and its all utter nonsense. 

Lemme just show you some things which are plain lies/made up :

1)




> I can create nearly anything I can imagine with ease. I have over 100 worlds created which I tend to visit during my very long (time dilation) trips into the dream plane. Most of them have vastly different rules which has an effect on the lifeforms there. My dreams are very stable, something doesn't vanish simply because I turn my back on it for a while. I enjoy splitting my awareness and using it to fill out various crazy forms. I love being able to see out of their eyes, hear what they hear, feel what they feel, even if it is a giant tentacle beast covered in eyeballs, or a small fly/dragon hybrid.



Like what is this? Is this supposed to be serious because judging from this guys posts and threads it looks very much so. He created 100s of persistant worlds and can inhibit the insides of any beast he wants.
This is plain impossible. Dreams are a reflection of ourselves and are governed by our subconcience, how is it possible to experience a sense in a Dream which you never experienced in real life. Some of the stuff hes saying is possible to some degree by highly skilled people and even then its an exaggeration. Like splitting personalities? How exactly does that work? Its unrealistic and fake.

2)





> I suppose my dream worlds must be more stable than for other people. If I turn my back on something, it doesn't simply vanish. I read and write pretty regularly in my dreams, mostly through a sort of computer system that can store/withdraw information (I supposed from my subconscious) which I usually access through a sort of HUD. I regularly log my adventures or jot down notes to help me remember things and then access them at a later date. My dream worlds are usually very stable unless I intentionally make them otherwise, or allow my subconscious to be more random. Sometimes I will post signs up in my dream worlds and the text never changes unless I want it to. These dreamworlds are consistent with the way they were designed to be, and I have visited many of them many many times since their creation. So they do not change much from dream to dream unless I want them to be evolving while I am away.
> 
> Anyways, definitely not impossible as I have done these things, and I think that perhaps even newbies to LDs/dream control could still (at least some of the time) be able to read text in their dreams and write in their dreams. Even if the text is not stable and changes on them, words could still be perceived before they change.
> 
> I also tend to use a good bit of math in my dreams, though usually not the more advanced math. Mostly I use this for programming constructs and thoughtforms.



So now this is beginning to look seem more and more sci-fi. I mean using maths and accessing your files trough a HUD stored by a brain computer? He uses all of these terms as the dream world is anything similar to waking life. It is extremely different, covered with emotions and volatile but he somehow has neat organized folders and solves math in them. Aight..

3)





> Mostly though I use 2 main techniques in order to extend my dreams.
> The first is fairly simple, and anyone with enough dream control and control over their senses should be able to do with practice. Basically you split yourself into 2 separate dream bodies, separate awareness. Not mere clones but bodies with which you can perceive the world through separately. Both bodies have completely separate vision, hearing, touch, ect. If you can do this, then you can effectively split into 2 and have 2 completely separate dreams simultaneously. In short, you can have 2 full and separate dreams in the same time frame as you would normally only have 1 dream. You can then continue splitting your awareness to increase the amount of content that can be perceived in the same amount of time.
> The other main tech I use, is I have 1 of my bodies meditate in the hyperbolic time chamber from dbz. This is much harder to explain but is based mostly on visualization (using HUD clocks) and feeling which I doubt I can explain better than the ear muscle explanation. This body attempts to slow down (or speed up depending on perspective) perceived time for all of my dream bodies simultaneously.
> Using these 2 main techs in combination with many minor techs has allowed me to perceive many years of dream content in a mere 2 hours of sleep. I have also had times in which I have slept for over 24 hours and dreamed for what felt like hundreds of years, to the point where I had forgotten many things from irl. I felt as if I could remain their indefinitely (or near indefinitely) but I always choose to come back for some reason or other. These days, since I tend to spend much more time in my dreams than the waking world, instead of keeping a dream journal I  keep a sort of thisworld journal which I use to keep from forgetting important things irl. I write before bed and read upon waking to reintegrate myself into this world.



So this one is my favorite. He claims to split into hundreds of clones each doing its own thing while he puts 1 clone of himself into a time chamber from DBZ? Can it get more ridiculous and obvious than this? Do I need to say anything?

4)





> For those interested in time dilation: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...echniques.html
> 
> I was going to make a separate thread on dream combat and link to it here, but then things started getting screwy. Anyways, I'll go into that some here, particularly I'm in the mood to write about defense and why combat became boring for me because of becoming like a more complicated game of tictactoe in which neither side can win if both players know how to play.
> 
> *The ultimate defense for dream and astral combat:*
> This is what i personally use for defense, though i won't reveal everything for my own sake, good to hold onto some secrets here just in case lol. I usually use a combination of techs depending on my mood, though my seeds are always ready if needed.
> 
> 1. Shielding - Shielding comes in many forms, from simple bubble shields and body armor to more complex shielding such as spatial manipulation shields (throw a punch and when your fist gets too close to me it vanishes and reappears elsewhere), energy shields which rotate at high speeds or are programmed to reflect or counterattack, ect
> 
> ...



Even tho I'm pretty much repeating myself here, why does a master of lucid dreaming need combat moves except that it looks cool, oh yeah I forgot you gotta fight and protect yourself from the real people trying to hijack your dreams -.-''

I don't like calling out people and being a dick but there is nothing more I hate than liars over-exaggerating this stuff to a ludicrous degree.. Don't be that guy.

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## Sageous

^^ Mylynes was _serious?_ 

I had assumed he was just kidding...like a sort of blog-rapper, he was just writing, on this and other threads, all the fantasies young dreamers have about what they'd do with their lucid powers, should they ever have them.

Silly me.

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## Baron Samedi

> What techniques? 
> 
> *The ones.*
> 
> These aren't techniques its just pointless rambling that has nothing to do with lucid dreaming. I looked into his posts/threads a bit more and its all utter nonsense.
> 
> *yes* 
> 
> Lemme just show you some things which are plain lies/made up :
> ...



Oh.

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## Electrode

> Oh.



Is this supposed to be a coherent response?

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## LouaiB

> What techniques? These aren't techniques its just pointless rambling that has nothing to do with lucid dreaming. I looked into his posts/threads a bit more and its all utter nonsense. 
> 
> Lemme just show you some things which are plain lies/made up :
> 
> 1)
> 
> 
> Like what is this? Is this supposed to be serious because judging from this guys posts and threads it looks very much so. He created 100s of persistant worlds and can inhibit the insides of any beast he wants.
> 
> ...



Answers in quote

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## PKJacker

> So this one is my favorite. He claims to split into hundreds of clones each doing its own thing while he puts 1 clone of himself into a time chamber from DBZ? Can it get more ridiculous and obvious than this? Do I need to say anything?
> 
> Having multiple awareness? I doubt that



Yea I just want to defend the sleeping guy and say that I've actually had dreams where I've split my awareness between two people, I wouldn't scoff at the idea that you can control more than just two awareness'. 

It didn't really feel like it was a strain to do so either, it just happened.

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## Baron Samedi

> Is this supposed to be a coherent response?



Maybe. 





> Yea I just want to defend the sleeping guy and say that I've actually had dreams where I've split my awareness between two people, I wouldn't scoff at the idea that you can control more than just two awareness'. 
> 
> It didn't really feel like it was a strain to do so either, it just happened.



Yes. I've had five dreams simultaneously. That feels bizarre. I think my most favorite of the five was dreaming I was in a hoverboard graffitti gang in future Tokyo.

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## PKJacker

> Yes. I've had five dreams simultaneously. That feels bizarre. I think my most favorite of the five was dreaming I was in a hoverboard graffitti gang in future Tokyo.



For me I was a bug monster fighting a guy who I also saw through as well, but I couldn't control either. It was weird, bug monster won by eating the head of the other guy, which was even more weird since I was eating the head I was seeing through.

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## Electrode

Look, dreams are indeed weird. Alot of stuff is possible and I am all up for exploring the dream world but it is quite pointless when you have people making stuff up to make them feel/look better. Its not helping anyone, especially since there is no way anyone can confirm any of it.

I called the guy out for being blatantly outrageous and decieving. I have been Lucid Dreaming for 5 years now and had a little over 100 of them, I was also a part of the Lucipedia forum for years before it kinda died out and I never heard anything similar to this nonsense.

I am here to learn and take tips from people that are more experienced in order to expand my knowledge on the subject and get better at it but thats only going to be possible if everyone is honest about it and shares actual advice rather than made up stories. Its an online forum, nobody knows you here, no need to pretend and make stuff up.





> Yea I just want to defend the sleeping guy and say that I've actually had dreams where I've split my awareness between two people, I wouldn't scoff at the idea that you can control more than just two awareness'. 
> 
> It didn't really feel like it was a strain to do so either, it just happened.



Splitting awareness and having a bizzare dream is much different than someone clamining he has 100s of worlds saved, having hundrends of clones of himself doing random stuff, a clone sitting in a DBZ chamber as well as playing a MMO vs other Lucid Dreamers that are out to get his secrets.

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## Dthoughts

If we take Mylenes serious, his history explains his insane dream control. Apparently when lucid at will you can become very creative. What he says in this thread doesn't seem impossible to me?

I would be skeptic like you if i didn't know better. The things you say are impossible are things that other people can relate to. Like split awareness, for me i was an alien insect flying from outer space to earth in order to learn more about human beings and split my awareness on the way and landed into multiple free-roaming points on earth.

It is a dream for god's sake, and a lucid one at that! I don't see why you woulden't create 100's of standalone worlds. Memory can keep those worlds alive. I don't see how that is impossible. I'm sure that's all Mylenes means. I mean.. U are calling him a liar but you are reading things from his post which i don't!

Looks to me like you are saying things he says which he actually doesn't  :tongue2:  That is the core issue at hand here. Although i agree with you and i would not appreciate being lied to about dream skills either.

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## Electrode

> If we take Mylenes serious, his history explains his insane dream control. Apparently when lucid at will you can become very creative. What he says in this thread doesn't seem impossible to me?
> 
> I would be skeptic like you if i didn't know better. The things you say are impossible are things that other people can relate to. Like split awareness, for me i was an alien insect flying from outer space to earth in order to learn more about human beings and split my awareness on the way and landed into multiple free-roaming points on earth.
> 
> It is a dream for god's sake, and a lucid one at that! I don't see why you woulden't create 100's of standalone worlds. Memory can keep those worlds alive. I don't see how that is impossible. I'm sure that's all Mylenes means. I mean.. U are calling him a liar but you are reading things from his post which i don't!
> 
> Looks to me like you are saying things he says which he actually doesn't  That is the core issue at hand here. Although i agree with you and i would not appreciate being lied to about dream skills either.



How am I saying things he said which he actually didn't. I took the time to quote everything he said and placed my thoughts there. And yes as I said dreams are still a big unknown to us and these things theoretically could be possible but the way he says it and the things he says are flat out obviously not true. Saying he was in dreams for years and keeping notes for real life so he can remember stuff is complete and utter bull****. Combined with rest of the stuff hes saying gives him 0 credibility in any sense.

I don't know much about what is truly possible when LD-ing and I wanna hear about peoples awesome and weird experiences like the one you described but its is nearly impossible if most of it is lies. I mean come on? Split awareness/complete dream control/shared dreaming (pretty common it seems since he has all of these strategies)/100s of saved worlds that never change/staying in a dream for years -> I mean can this really be debated or taken seriously in a least bit?

Its one thing saying I had a dream about split awareness or It felt as it was a strange dream or I had this experience where I was a lion opposed to saying I am master of everything and can do everything I want in a dream almost perfectly. Its flat out ridiculous.

----------


## Dthoughts

I see no reason why you can't have godlike control. But i see that is not what you mean. And yea, i also wary claims of time dilation. It just seems too overpowered an ability. I can think of ways to prove time dilation happens though, but it requires some complex methods and really 100% lucidity.

----------


## Sageous

So, I guess Mylynes _was_ serious, or at least has clearly been perceived as such by his readers, fans, and compatriots. 

As sort of an aside, here's a question about splitting your self into just a couple of other selves:  

If you have split yourself into multiple, independent entities, how do you _know_ it is happening?  

After all, if your "entire" awareness is in your current DC (as it would have to be to fit the descriptions provided above), how do you _know_ that there are a bunch of other DC's which also, simultaneously, contain your entire awareness?  Do they come and tell you?  Is there some sort of split-screen thing going on in your head? Is it just an overall feeling that you are doing things elsewhere?  Do you hop back and forth among them?

If it is the latter (hopping among them), then how do you know you're not simply shifting among DC's one at a time, with your awareness encased in only one DC at a time?  And, if your answer is "I just knew it," that really doesn't fly for me, and probably shouldn't for you.

[Also, I just realized: if it is like a split screen event, where you are seeing all your selves go about their business at once, then who is watching the screens? There is a difference, I think, between _watching_ multiple DC's doing their things, each as you, and actually _being_ those multiple DC's.]

I'm more than willing to accept that someone split his identity among several DC's in a dream, but I think there are a lot of things that can happen in a dream that can give you the _impression_ that you are having multiple dreams at once, or have become several different DC's at once, while throughout it all you are simply one entity filling his dreamworld with a particularly complex schema.  

And yes, I do not think it is possible, psychologically or philosophically, to divide your self into 100 different, independent entities, all of whom are truly you.  Two, three, or even five could be feasible, I suppose, but 100 is just silly, eclipses even insanity, and smacks a bit too much of the Naruto anime.  It seems that Electrode's "calling out" of Mylynes might be necessary, because it might give us a chance tho think about the idea that much of what we read on these forums arrives in the form of a tall tale.   Aside over...

I could go on about the flaws I noticed in Mylynes stories on his assorted threads (i.e., why would someone who's been LD'ing "naturally" since he was 4 even know what a technique is, much less need them or start threads about them?), but I won't, because, if he was serious and actually believes this stuff, well, that is something that must be left to him to inspect.  Which got me thinking:

Lucid dreaming is an incredibly liberating conscious activity, and it can certainly feel like anything is possible in them -- the infinite seems to be at your very fingertips.  And I know that it certainly can be dreaming-forum heresy to suggest that there may be limits to what a dreamer can do in his own head ... Indeed, I personally feel that LD'ing is only the first rung of a ladder that can carry a willing consciousness to incredible heights (and out of the dream realm altogether), but I do so with the knowledge that -- if I want to maintain my own identity and self-awareness, and while my brain is still in charge of projecting the dreams -- there are things that simply cannot be done in a dream.  

Heresy maybe, but I've been doing this stuff for a very long time, and have found that the one true limit -- and true threat -- to LD'ing is to succumb to the fantasies, to lie to yourself about what just happened, and then to believe and defend that lie as truth. Sharing that lie with others as if it were true is only collateral damage.

----------


## AnotherDreamer

I really like what you said Sageous, but I also feel as though there are benefits to people lying about amazing things they can do in dreams. Even if Mylynes couldn't actually do half of the incredible things he talked about, it inspired me to try to do them.

Back in the day, I played this game called Gunz. There was one guy that played who called himself Monk and he caused some controversy. The vast majority hated the guy because he claimed that he could do a special move without outside programs and they simply thought that was impossible and called him a liar. There was also a minority that believed him and they formed a kind of gaming cult around this guy in which he was their dictator (I was part of that cult). I tried and tried and eventually I was able to do this special move. I found out later that Monk and his top followers never actually could do it and that they all used a macro designed by him just to trawl the community. But even though he was lying, it inspired me to try to break past the believed limitations and I became one of the very first people that could legitimately do these 'impossible moves'. 

Mylynes similarly inspired me to try to break past my own limitations of what I thought was possible in dreams, even if they may seem ridiculous like splitting consciousness into 100 different points of awareness or playing more than 30 games of chess at once while remembering where each piece was. People like Mylynes help me to keep climbing this ladder of consciousness to find out for myself whether the limitations or real or imagined.

SPIRAL.jpg

----------


## Sageous

^^ That's an interesting, constructive way to look at this, Anotherdreamer.  However, you would need a pretty healthy attitude about all this stuff, so that when you come to the point where you realize the wonders Mylynes describes are likely exaggerations and can't be done, you know to simply shrug and move on to something else, rather than throw in the towel on LD'ing altogether because you just could never come close to dividing your self into, say, 3 (much less 100) unique individuals like Mylynes said he could do.   

Now, by what I've read from you, including that last post, you do seem to have that healthy attitude, and the fantastic claims of folks like Mylynes could effect you positively.  That's a good thing, sure, but what about the many who can't find that attitude, and instead start thinking that claims like this are what LD'ing is supposed to be?  Or, worse, what about medium-to-advanced LD'ers who waste so much of their precious time in lucidity trying and inevitably failing to do this stuff, while at the same time not doing the exploring, growing, and having fun that they could have been doing?

I think if all posts were based on truth, these forums would be a much better and more useful place.  After all, there are plenty of people who share with us some amazing things which they have _actually done_ in their dreams, and with their lucidity, from which we can draw some inspiration, right?

I think I might have helped veer us a bit off-topic here, so I'll leave it at that.

----------


## Electrode

> I really like what you said Sageous, but I also feel as though there are benefits to people lying about amazing things they can do in dreams. Even if Mylynes couldn't actually do half of the incredible things he talked about, it inspired me to try to do them.
> 
> Back in the day, I played this game called Gunz. There was one guy that played who called himself Monk and he caused some controversy. The vast majority hated the guy because he claimed that he could do a special move without outside programs and they simply thought that was impossible and called him a liar. There was also a minority that believed him and they formed a kind of gaming cult around this guy in which he was their dictator (I was part of that cult). I tried and tried and eventually I was able to do this special move. I found out later that Monk and his top followers never actually could do it and that they all used a macro designed by him just to trawl the community. But even though he was lying, it inspired me to try to break past the believed limitations and I became one of the very first people that could legitimately do these 'impossible moves'. 
> 
> Mylynes similarly inspired me to try to break past my own limitations of what I thought was possible in dreams, even if they may seem ridiculous like splitting consciousness into 100 different points of awareness or playing more than 30 games of chess at once while remembering where each piece was. People like Mylynes help me to keep climbing this ladder of consciousness to find out for myself whether the limitations or real or imagined.
> 
> SPIRAL.jpg



Yes some of the posts may seem a bit challenging making you feel like you need to dig deeper to try to get to that level inspiring you to do better etc.. but imagine how counterproductive it seems to anyone trying to really get into it, I mean you see people here struggling for weeks/months to just have one LD and there are people claiming to have such abilities which are clearly unrealistic to say the least.

It actually insulted me and I feel alot of others who actually spend time thinking about this, trying to get better at is and master it. Like my achivement of being able to maintain a dream for more than 3 minutes after years of being able to stay in a LD for 30 seconds/1 minute tops, was a big step that took me years to be able to achieve. I can compare it to WoW. Its like you spend weeks trying to take down a boss in WoW with your guild (I dont actually play it but for sake of comparison), and then some guy comes along saying he soloed it. Its just utter nonsense,clearly impossible and helps no one.

I find genuine threads of people explaining things and their ACTUAL TRUE experiences that make me want to be better. Posts about people actually finding unique things to do. I remember someone on Lucipedia posted that he asked a DC to write some kind of a advice on a piece of paper and asked others about doing the same. It led to some nice discussions and various findings/responses. Things like that make Lucid Dreaming so inspiring and make me want to master it not some random outrageous claims of supreme control.

----------


## gab

Feel free, anybody, to doubt and to express your doubt. But please do it in a nice and respectful manner. Without calling others liars. Thank you.

----------


## Baron Samedi

I've been practicing Time Dilation in dreams. I had a ten year dream, and a three hundred year dream. 

What this means is that I perceived dreaming ten years in one dream. It's like reading a book that takes you a total of ten hours, and in the book ten years went by, and after you get done with the book, you feel like you lived ten years in that other world. 

Why I "believe" Mylynes is because I've tried out his techniques, and learned a lot from him. For example, creating an HUD, Time Dilation, Self-Induced Waking Hallucinations, et cetera. This is going off into the BD zone a little, and I don't want to get this thread moved, but I did battle him on the Dream Plane about three years ago, and he basically won, so I knew that at the time he was a more powerful Dreamer than I was. His Omnilucidity technique has helped extend my lucid time also.

----------


## Sageous

> Feel free, anybody, to doubt and to express your doubt. But please do it in a nice and respectful manner. Without calling others liars. Thank you.



I didn't see it that way at the time, but I guess that is what we're doing, isn't it?  I (at least) meant no harm, and was trying to be generally cautionary, but I see your point.  All apologies!

----------


## Brizzl

@Electrode:
Look dude, I don't really see what your problem is. Mylynes went out of his way to try and help other people who were attempting to become as skilled at lucid dreaming as he is. Is there really anything to dispute about? If you don't want to try his techniques, so be it. But unless you actually experiment with anything that Mylynes wrote about with a good hearted attitude then please don't say anything negative or unjust. It is simply not your place.

----------


## gab

> I didn't see it that way at the time, but I guess that is what we're doing, isn't it?  I (at least) meant no harm, and was trying to be generally cautionary, but I see your point.  All apologies!



Thank you Sageous, classy guy as always.

Didn't wanna name names, still don't, but you were not the one that prompted me to make my plea.

----------


## LouaiB

Ok. Time dilation and split awareness seem to be understood wrong.

Time dilation: Either what WakingNomad said(the book example), or you can actually count to a billion in a dream.

Split Awareness: Either what Sageous said(screens), or you can play 100 matches of chess simultaneously(nice example AnotherDreamer).

Shared dreaming: That is something a little different(a lot of controversy about it)

----------


## Dthoughts

Please don't move this thread to Beyond Dreaming. Credibility is so hard to find in that subforum it is viewed as a playground for silly ideas. Besides, there's so much traffic on this forum. I see that as fresh meat ready to be trained into lucid dreaming pros. I'm tired of being muffled away at the BD!  :tongue2: 

Cut the crap, stop bickering and just try these techniques if you are being skeptical.

Lets raise the standard guys, 

I want to set up an experiment we can all do together.

Here's a hypothesis about splitting awareness; Splitting consciousness is a form of energy manipulation. You can only split your consciousness as many times as that energy allows you to (we'll call it energy in this experiment, we do not know what energy actually consists of, atleast not yet).

I suspect splitting consciousness actually will feel like you are cutting into an organic body. In my experience which was brief and wasn't very lucid, having multiple awareness is like playing a video in split-screen but weirder because there is no actual screen. And no players.. that is the weirdest thing. Who is doing all the playing?

I advice you to try this for yourself and notice how incredibly difficult it is to accurately translate these sensations in words.. It is astounding, no wonder Mylenes is not taken seriously. It is not that he is lying. It is just that words fail to accurately convey the truth.

To test this hypothesis of mine we could simply have different lucid dreamers of this forum perform the task of splitting consciousness into as much sides as they can and report to us any sensations and detail for further analysis.

^ It is that easy.

WN: How exactly do you begin dilating time in a lucid dream? ]

Like i said, i can think of ways to prove time dilation in a scientific fashion. Just takes a little creativity, what we need now is lucidity. Together we can move mountains in terms of lucid dreaming research. I really hope someone besides me is going to try splitting awareness in a lucid dream ;

----------


## LouaiB

> I believe it might be so. I suspect splitting consciousness actually will feel like you are cutting into an organic self. IME, which was brief and i wasn't very lucid. Having multiple awareness is like playing a video in split-screen but weirder because there is no actual screen. And no players.. that is the weirdest thing. Who is doing all the playing?



It can feel weird, but splitting awareness wouldn't be defined like that. This is close, but not it,sorry. If you try it, then you can play multiple chess games simultaneously. A match for every consciousness.

----------


## Dthoughts

> It can feel weird, but splitting awareness wouldn't be defined like that. This is close, but not it,sorry. If you try it, then you can play multiple chess games simultaneously. A match for every consciousness.



IME means "In my Experience" .. I actually am trying to convey a memory of an actual experience here i'm not sure if you are aware of that  :tongue2: 

Otherwise, what do you mean ? Have you tried splitting awareness yet?

PS: Note how important it is to differ the words Consciousness and Awareness here. Both have different implications that reach pretty far out.

----------


## LouaiB

> IME means "In my Experience" .. I actually am trying to convey a memory of an actual experience here i'm not sure if you are aware of that 
> 
> Otherwise, what do you mean ?



Splitting awareness is impossible psychologically. Period.

----------


## EbbTide000

> Splitting awareness is impossible psychologically. Period.







> Splitting awareness is impossible psychologically. Period.





Hey

*Bosnak* says we are *not* a single (unified) personally but a collection of dissociative states.*

And

Our dreams are populated with ... let me copy anf past s bit from the half hour interview:


***

Interviewer: Natasha Mitchell: 

You know, Sigmund Freud and Karl Jung certainly conceived of dreams as sort of *sub-personalities*. In Freud's case I guess a whole bunch of repressed sub-personalities. Instead you describe dreams as forms of intelligence, and even alien intelligences, and I wonder if you're taking us into the realms of gnomes and flying saucers here.

*Robert Bosnak:* 

Absolutely not. 

They are alien to what I call the habitual self, what we habitually think about ourselves, so when I have certain feelings, certain responses, then I say that is my response. 

Now in dreaming you see that there is not only an intelligent *I,* the one that walks around, for instance, down the street, but when you see in dreams there are other people walking also on the street that display intelligence.

 And what I'm going from is, as Corbin did, from a radical form of phenomenology, I'm just trying to look at the phenomena. As I look at the phenomena the person who comes towards me in the street appears to be a carrier of a certain kind of consciousness. It's not the consciousness that I'm identified with, *it's another kind of consciousness*. 

And what I'm trying to do in my work is to see if we can partake of that consciousness and learn something about non-ego, non-habitual forms of consciousness.

Interviewer: Natasha Mitchell: 

Now this really challenges our *core sense* that we are a singular self, a single identity contained within a singular skin.

*Robert Bosnak:* 

Yes it does *completely*. 

Actually it is becoming more or less recognised within many sides and fields and schools of psychoanalysis that we are a very dissociable collection of states. 

This used to be seen as abnormal psychology 

but 

we begin to see more and more that that is more or less the norm. 

If it becomes extreme then you get people with what used to be called *multiple-personality*. So then the states are completely disassociated, they have no contact with each other. 

In the normal way the states are relatively *independent* and *autonomous* and there is contact between them,

 but

 it is not that I am a single self that over/during my life fractures. 

No, 

*I am* as far as I can see it, 

*a multiplicity of states* that is in a constant state of interaction.

***

Listen to the interview or read the transcript. ..here:

***

Dreams: the body alive! (Part 1 of 2) - All In The Mind - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

***

----------


## LouaiB

I love it!
I defend that concept too. For example, a DC is a part of our brain neurons, so it is conscious and intelligent. I talk about it a lot.
But, this may not be the same thing as *splitting attention between DCs*. We simply can't have that attention on those intelegent DCs at the same time. Our brain simply cannot do it! That is what I meant by impossible psychologically.

tl;dr: Having multiple intelligent consciousness doesn't mean having the ability to split attention between them at the same instant.

----------


## EbbTide000

Yes

I heard on the radio that ... we all know that statement

"You dirty old man. You've got a *one track mind* you have"

The Dr on the radio said EVERYONE only has a one track mind. Apparently the mind can switch between "tracks" very quickly. But it is only on one track in any given moment.

So yes

Splitting awareness is *impossible psychologically*. Period.


But But But

When I had my Enlightenment experience (1975) I went (physicality) smaller and smaller and smaller.  My body felt like it was shrinking,  fast and very smoothly.  I was 15 then 14 then 13 year old, down, down, down to Zero. Then I lost awareness. Like I didn't have a usable container (brain) to contain awareness,  (maybe) 

Other stuff happened. 

But when I was up and moving again. ...

Well, it was brought to my attention that I was merged with all life for about a 2 kilometer sphere.

I was (intimately) every birdy, fishy, grub, lizard, person, plant.

It was extremely subtle.

Nothing like you or I could imagine. 

One expects such an experience would drive one crazy. Like the deafening inner sound of all those noises and the inner visual overload of seeing what all those multitudes are seeing.

And I could

But it was gentle and subtle. Totally unobtrusive. 

Mun sent me to do some shopping. I never looked at the note (shopping list) she gave me.  I just reached up again and again taking products of the shelf.

When I got home she called me out of my room and asked me why did I buy this and this. I said that I just knew to. 

She looked at me blank for a few moments and said "no" tell me why you got these items because I realised that I didn't put them on the list. And (jokingly) I tried telepathically asking you to get them. 

Then I said to mum...."I just "realised (guru maragi's) knowledge, mum. I'm one with you and everyone.  It is fading now but it was very strong after meditation. 

(End of history story)

So

I know that one can bee many living creature's at once. It is a place of no-thought. No independent self (ego). 

And it feels more * ordinary*  than normal consciousness. And you don't need to think cos everything is subtly known. Everything flows.





> I love it!
> I defend that concept too. For example, a DC is a part of our brain neurons, so it is conscious and intelligent. I talk about it a lot.
> But, this may not be the same thing as *splitting attention between DCs*. We simply can't have that attention on those intelegent DCs at the same time. Our brain simply cannot do it! That is what I meant by impossible psychologically.
> 
> tl;dr: Having multiple intelligent consciousness doesn't mean having the ability to split attention between them at the same instant.

----------


## LouaiB

Havago:
Can we do that on demand in LDs?

----------


## EbbTide000

> Havago:
> Can we do that on demand in LDs?




I am not a Lucid Dreamer. When this happens spontaneously I don't like it.

I think there are many species of dreamer. The same way that there are many species of animal (aquatic fish, land elephants,  sky birds, underground rabits and blind moles) and so on.

I'm a hipnagoger (hahaha)

----------


## Baron Samedi

> Please don't move this thread to Beyond Dreaming. Credibility is so hard to find in that subforum it is viewed as a playground for silly ideas. Besides, there's so much traffic on this forum. I see that as fresh meat ready to be trained into lucid dreaming pros. I'm tired of being muffled away at the BD! 
> 
> Cut the crap, stop bickering and just try these techniques if you are being skeptical.
> 
> Lets raise the standard guys, 
> 
> I want to set up an experiment we can all do together.
> 
> Here's a hypothesis about splitting awareness; Splitting consciousness is a form of energy manipulation. You can only split your consciousness as many times as that energy allows you to (we'll call it energy in this experiment, we do not know what energy actually consists of, atleast not yet).
> ...



We cannot scientifically prove that anything can or cannot be done in a dream, because there is only anecdotal evidence, or in other words, it's all hearsay. In my opinion, trying to prove whether something can or cannot be done in a dream is pointless. 

*The one who says, "It cannot be done," should not interrupt the one doing it.*  -ancient proverb

----------


## Electrode

> Thank you Sageous, classy guy as always.
> 
> Didn't wanna name names, still don't, but you were not the one that prompted me to make my plea.



Obviously it is aimed at me I suppose but I feel some ideas and claims must be criticized to create a healthy environment to discuss things. I am not here to flame I am trying to be as reasonable as I can but I feel its necessary that someone calls out people when they're clearly over-exaggerating to say the least.

----------


## Dthoughts

A student obviously has to develop a level of trust in the teacher that what the teacher is telling the student is in fact the truth. Otherwise, there would be no point in listening to the teacher.

I see the main issue at hand here is the Shared dreaming aspect of it all. Let me just point out that (AFAIK) Mylenes didn't always believe in shared dreaming and was still claiming to apply some of these techniques. You can simply have subconscious processes that seem sentient to the dreamer. Just like Havago's quote from the interview. That is just another way to look at it. I know Carl Jung recognized entities that are not his normal self. There is no reason to belief these non-selves Carl Jung is talking about are not capable of attacking the dreamer.

Electrode, perhaps more lucidity and more control comes with more challenge from the dream itself? There is no logical reason to suppose more control means all fighting in dreams seizes to exist?

----------


## Sageous

Okay, *Dthoughts,* let's skip the crap, and look into this ourselves!  One big "but" must be mentioned, though, which I think separates your experiment from Mylynes' themes:





> Here's a hypothesis about splitting awareness; Splitting consciousness is a form of energy manipulation. You can only split your consciousness as many times as that energy allows you to (we'll call it energy in this experiment, we do not know what energy actually consists of, atleast not yet).
> 
> I suspect splitting consciousness actually will feel like you are cutting into an organic body. In my experience which was brief and wasn't very lucid, having multiple awareness is like playing a video in split-screen but weirder because there is no actual screen. And no players.. that is the weirdest thing. *Who is doing all the playing?*



I think what you're saying here is that you can split your consciousness multiple times, into smaller and smaller pieces, but by asking "Who is doing all the playing?" you are conceding that all the while there is still a singular _self_-awareness doing the splitting, and then viewing and maintaining all those consciousnesses.  

Okay, that  sounds fine, and quite doable. I've encountered dreams from several locations at once, or different dreams simultaneously, and I have a feeling that it might happen accidentally in anyone's NLD's on occasion and in mentally unhealthy people quite often, simply due to occasionally "crossed wires" that pile schemata on top of each other. So by that measure your experiment seems sound, and well worth attempting.  _But_:

It also sounds like you're leaving intact the one part that Mylynes implies he splits, and actually _must_ split in order to dilate time (which I think was where this was being used): self-awareness.  As you may have said somewhere above, though it is quite similar to natural awareness, consciousness is different from self-awareness, and I agree.  But in order to dilate time, wouldn't you need to split your self-awareness multiple times _as well_ as consciousness, essentially creating a whole bunch of fully independent "you's?"  

Of course, doing so would only make time move at its normal pace for a whole bunch of unique people, with no cumulative "slowing," because there can be no overriding "You" to appreciate all your little "you's" experiences.  There can't be, because if you retain your self-awareness, then you _did not_ split it out multiple times. There can be only one "You," no matter how many DC "sensors" you've got working for you, in no matter how many dreams.  Why?  Because all that stuff is being driven by one mind, one brain, and that mind in its totality is you -- self-awareness is the acknowledgment of that totality. 

So, in order to split self-awareness, you would need to create separate entities, all of whom believe whole-heartedy that they are the unique individual occupying this particular mind and brain, that the entire dreamscape they purvey is theirs alone (and yes, this has reportedly happened in advanced cases of split-personality schizophrenia -- but I assume neither you nor Mylynes suggest we go there!).  

I'm not sure that made sense, but let me quote Louai, because he hit it right on the head in six words:





> Splitting awareness is impossible psychologically. Period.



... and splitting self-awareness, I think, is what Mylynes was talking about -- just like Naruto does it in the cartoon.

*So I recommend that everyone try Dthoughts' experiment* -- and please report in your results!  It's well worth doing, and can only help you in your dream control skills.  I like the carving the energy image as a nice working metaphor for getting started, but just imagining yourself in more than one place at once is a fine place to start as well.  

And again, though splitting your consciousness is an interesting experience, it is by no means splitting your self-awareness, and will have no significant impact on your perception of time.  





> I advice you to try this for yourself and notice how incredibly difficult it is to accurately translate these sensations in words.. It is astounding, no wonder Mylenes is not taken seriously. It is not that he is lying. It is just that words fail to accurately convey the truth.



I'm sorry, I'm not buying the "he's just too advanced and mystical  for words" argument. Mylynes is offering this as a tutorial, not a memoir. If he couldn't find the words, then he shouldn't have announced he was going to do a tutorial.  And for what it's worth, the "too advanced for words" mystical excuse is usually used when mystics say _nothing_ about their experiences (because they literally can't), and not when they present clear narratives of them.

Also, _any_ advanced process or exploration in LD'ing is incredibly difficult, though if you are simply talking about splitting your consciousness, or in a sense multiplying your points for perception, I can think of several things that are a whole lot harder 





> To test this hypothesis of mine we could simply have different lucid dreamers of this forum perform the task of splitting consciousness into as much sides as they can and report to us any sensations and detail for further analysis.
> 
> ^ It is that easy.
> 
> WN: How exactly do you begin dilating time in a lucid dream? ]
> 
> Like i said, i can think of ways to prove time dilation in a scientific fashion. Just takes a little creativity, what we need now is lucidity. Together we can move mountains in terms of lucid dreaming research. I really hope someone besides me is going to try splitting *awareness* in a lucid dream ;



Sounds good; let's see what happens!

----------


## Dthoughts

> I think what you're saying here is that you can split your consciousness multiple times, into smaller and smaller pieces, but by asking "Who is doing all the playing?" you are conceding that all the while there is still a singular _self_-awareness doing the splitting, and then viewing and maintaining all those consciousnesses.



I am not denying a self doing the splitting. I do suggest the self-awareness doing the splitting might not be able to maintain control of conscious behaviour on all the clones. Idk, but I guess it is the same reason you and Louia say psychologically impossible?





> Of course, doing so would only make time move at its normal pace for a whole bunch of unique people, with no cumulative "slowing," because there can be no overriding "You" to appreciate all your little "you's" experiences.  There can't be, because if you retain your self-awareness, then you _did not_ split it out multiple times. There can be only one "You," no matter how many DC "sensors" you've got working for you, in no matter how many dreams.  Why?  Because all that stuff is being driven by one mind, one brain, and that mind in its totality is you -- self-awareness is the acknowledgment of that totality.



Please, bare with me on what i think is happening in this situation; You split your dream to include two dreams.. Have one dream of riding a flying unicorn while the other surfs on a rainbow for two hours. In this fashion you have just split time itself. You now have the experience of 2 hours riding a unicorn and 2 hours of surfing a rainbow seperately. More importantly, the original time used is extented in relationship to the original scenario of one single lucid dream.

Trick here for me is trying to imagine the cognitive power to process all the tasks in different dreams.
It is for this reason that I believe that if you succeed in this, all the copies perform tasks without conscious control from the oberserver. 
The focus/awareness/experience stays in the viewpoint from the total-self. It just now includes a sense of awareness in all the clones it originally created.

I include a sense of smell/taste/vision etc. on all those clones but it lacks a conscious thought it just simply going about its 'spooky' business. 

It is an esoteric belief that god actually created the world in a similar fasion. This raises doubts and adds to the philosophy that our free will is more of an illusion. But I think that from our conscious viewpoint it might give us more perspective about who is doing the playing"and who created the console.  ::lol:: 





> So, in order to split self-awareness, you would need to create separate entities, all of whom believe whole-heartedy that they are the unique individual occupying this particular mind and brain, that the entire dreamscape they purvey is theirs alone (and yes, this has reportedly happened in advanced cases of split-personality schizophrenia -- but I assume neither you nor Mylynes suggest we go there!).



:\ that split-personality case is rather extreme. I think actually, the scizophrenic person experiencing this is lacking the lucidity to realize he is creating the sensation for himself. As well-informed lucid dreamers i suppose we won't have to worry about that here!





> I'm sorry, I'm not buying the "he's just too advanced and mystical  for words" argument. Mylynes is offering this as a tutorial, not a memoir. If he couldn't find the words, then he shouldn't have announced he was going to do a tutorial.  And for what it's worth, the "too advanced for words" mystical excuse is usually used when mystics say _nothing_ about their experiences (because they literally can't), and not when they present clear narratives of them.



Maybe not, but atleast Mylenes is trying to convey his most-likely not completely made up experiences. I guess i'll just keep pointing out that words often make it difficult to convey true experience, and such is especially so for topics such as in this thread. 





> Also, _any_ advanced process or exploration in LD'ing is incredibly difficult, though if you are simply talking about splitting your consciousness, or in a sense multiplying your points for perception, I can think of several things that are a whole lot harder



Wow, i thought splitting perception is an incredibly hard thing to do. all the more reason for others to try it i guess  :wink2:  It actually is hard to me, I tried to just now and I think that this might be a lot easier in dream-state. I suppose it helps practicing now, to perform the dream control when i actually find myself in a dream later. I'm curious though, and just to get this thread back on-topic which says from the thread title it is about dream control in it's totality, could you please name a few skills that are harder to master than just splitting perception?  ::D:

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## Sageous

> I am not denying a self doing the splitting. I do suggest the self-awareness doing the splitting might not be able to maintain control of conscious behaviour on all the clones. Idk, but I guess it is the same reason you and Louia say psychologically impossible?



Yes.





> Please, bare with me on what i think is happening in this situation; You split your dream to include two dreams.. Have one dream of riding a flying unicorn while the other surfs on a rainbow for two hours. In this fashion you have just split time itself. You now have the experience of 2 hours riding a unicorn and 2 hours of surfing a rainbow seperately. More importantly, the original time used is extented in relationship to the original scenario of one single lucid dream.



Okay, with that example I think I get it... maybe.  What you're saying, _I think_, is that if you have multiple dreams going on, the time spent in them,_ upon remembering them later_, is cumulative.   Now that is something I hadn't considered, but it does make sense on paper anyway.  Given that in the end all our experiences are memories, if we remember two (or more) separate events going on in a single night -- even if during that night you were only able to be present, self-awareness-wise, in one dream at a time -- and combine that with memory's tendency to "fill in the blanks," you will indeed have created an extra couple hours of life that otherwise would not exist in your memory.  Interesting!  The only problem with it, though, is that you are still not "living" that extra time when it is happening, because your self-awareness (aka "You") will still have an overall sense of time, no matter how much is going on. Excellent concept though; I only hope I properly understand it!





> Trick here for me is trying to imagine the cognitive power to process all the tasks in different dreams.
> It is for this reason that I believe that if you succeed in this, all the copies perform tasks without conscious control from the observer. 
> The focus/awareness/experience stays in the viewpoint from the total-self. It just now includes a sense of awareness in all the clones it originally created.



Here's where it is time, I think, to have some faith in your unconscious, your dreaming mind.  

Provide it with firm enough schemata to work with, DC's that mean something to you, and then let it run the show while you're away at the other dreams.  It's not as hard as it sounds, especially if you consider it is likely going on all the time in NLD's and in waking life.   

Your unconscious has always got several things on the burners, waiting for you to consciously access.  For instance, in waking life you could be working on a particular problem or suffering through some social issue, while at the same time having a chat with an old friend on the phone but you're also driving your car.  Odds are you're focused on your conversation, but the problem and issues are still in memory, waiting, while you drive the car without a thought.  Suddenly someone pulls out in front of you, and all your attention is instantly on driving.  Yet your conversation with your friend is still in cue, as is everything else... your unconscious is simply idling the various schemata you're processing while your consciousness juggles their respective priority, calling them up as needed.

That was probably a clumsy example, but suffice it to say your brain is already wired to handle a bunch of scenarios at once; asking it to do so in dreams as well is probably not too tall an order.





> I include a sense of smell/taste/vision etc. on all those clones but it lacks a conscious thought it just simply going about its 'spooky' business.



A much better example than the one I just offered, I think!





> It is an esoteric belief that god actually created the world in a similar fashion. This raises doubts and adds to the philosophy that our free will is more of an illusion. But I think that from our conscious viewpoint it might give us more perspective about who is doing the playing"and who created the console.



Agreed... and advanced LD'ing is an excellent tool for discovering that console, finding out who is manning it (i.e., us or Him), and maybe learning how to work it at will ... 

_However,_ I believe the rest of that esoteric belief wraps around the concept that, once God installed sentience into our beings, He lost the ability to control us, to directly oversee us as though we were a part of Him (as He does the angels).  In other words: yes, God divided Himself up into multiple bits, but even He could not include His own self-awareness in us when we became sentient -- our self-awareness trumped His.  I wonder if He was really annoyed, or really excited by that?





> Wow, i thought splitting perception is an incredibly hard thing to do. all the more reason for others to try it i guess  It actually is hard to me, I tried to just now and I think that this might be a lot easier in dream-state. I suppose it helps practicing now, to perform the dream control when i actually find myself in a dream later.



Definitely easier in the dream state, where cooperation with your unconscious is much more direct -- but it is also a good idea to practice splitting your consciousness (or at least lay down a solid plan to do so) during waking life.  Nothing like a little solid expectation to give your dreaming mind a kick-start!





> I'm curious though, and just to get this thread back on-topic which says from the thread title it is about dream control in it's totality, could you please name a few skills that are harder to master than just splitting perception?



I was afraid you'd ask that!  Not because I didn't have any examples, but because I fear that many of them have a "you had to be there" aspect to them, where words are difficult to find to fully explain what they're really like, or why they're really more difficult.  I will try to avoid too much hypocrisy in this short list from the top of my head, in order of difficulty I've had doing them from "easiest" to hardest:

*  Find an old friend, and have a conversation with her.  Don't just conjure a DC, but actually go on a physical search, remembering where that friend once lived, and going there. Then find her as she would naturally appear in these environs, as she would appear today, and not when you last saw her.   It's harder than it sounds, at least for me!

*  Move your perspective, entirely, from DC to DC, and make sure your perspective shifts relative to whoever you are "in," so that what you see, touch, feel, even think is in line with the character of the person you are occupying, and not your own character.

*  Erase everything from your dream, including any trace of your own DC dream body and its tools for perception.  Then consider where you are.

* Build, from the dirt of your dream, a human being.  Don't just summon a DC, but _form_ a body, minding every detail, and then try to give it (or allow it) its own personality -- a unique one that is not yours.

* Maintain self-awareness throughout an entire night's sleep... does that count?

* Build a dream during NREM/delta sleep, one that is unique to delta and its environs (you'll know them when you're there), and not just an accidental slide into REM dreaming.

* Create a dream schema that cannot have come from this world, or even your own mind (a lot harder than it sounds), and then construct a metaphor to describe it to yourself later.

* Create a metaphoric "engine" that seamlessly combines the activity of your brain, mind, and, perhaps, soul into one seamless communication all overseen by your self-awareness, giving you complete communication to everything your Self has to offer, all in a metaphor your self-awareness can handle.  I call it a trinity engine, myself.

I've explored all of these to some degree, though the last two are a real bitch, and I'll likely be working on the last for decades.

I hope some of these made sense, and at least _seem_ harder to you than splitting consciousness... they were for me!  If I can think of more, or perhaps better examples, I'll add them later. Also, I understand that these items are not so much skills as activities that imply skills, but I found it easier to convey them this way (sort of like using gaming metaphors to describe other sorts of dream control ... hypocrisy, anyone  :wink2: )

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## LouaiB

Now I understand what you mean! Multi-tasking 2 dreams. The car example was helpful, but I am skeptic that, even with the conscious and unconscious working very 'close', you would still store the 2 different memories so well. Conscious attention is different than unconscious attention. When we do a thing, we have all our attention to it, but multi-tasking splits our attention. How does the unconscious add more attention to that equation? Again, the car example is splitting conscious attention, which will store events to the memory.

tl;dr: Splitting your attention to 2 different dreams is experiencing each one with half the experience. The unconscious attention doesn't exactly add experience to the episodic memory. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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## Sageous

> ... Splitting your attention to 2 different dreams is experiencing each one with half the experience. The unconscious attention doesn't exactly add experience to the episodic memory. Correct me if I'm wrong.



Okay, you're wrong!  :wink2:   Not really, but there is one piece you left out: in the name of making better sense of reality, and to better order our past, we have a tendency to "fill in" blank spaces in our memory or experience.  Yes, experientially, when we split our attention, our time, to two separate things, we can do no better, at the time of the experience, than halve the amount of time spent in each experience.  As I noted above, when you are in the act of splitting your consciousness, your overriding self is still fully aware of the passage of time, and that no matter how many different scenarios are crammed into an hour's dream, a single hour has still passed. 

*But,* when you wake up, and, assuming you made sure that all of those split-consciousness adventures were memorable, your memory must record these events.  Here is where your unconscious kicks in and fills in the blanks:  if you have built substantial enough schemata for each split, then your unconscious will make the memories substantial as well -- you will very likely remember that you were in each "split" dreamworld for that whole hour, even though that did not happen during the dream.  So, once awake, you will remember two hours of life, even though when it happened you only lived one hour.  And, since your existence is based far more on memory than on direct experience, you _will_ have lived one extra hour of time because that's how you remember it.  Since memory dictates your reality more than we'd like to admit, I think this makes sense... and also sort of defines the reason for science's existence (something quantitative to counter creative memory).

This is I think, why so many people believe they have had dreams (almost always NLD's) that lasted for days, weeks, even years.  They really didn't, but, like LaBerge's notable movie analogy, though it was filled with gaps the plot of their dream covered long stretches of time, and subsequently their memories dutifully filled in the gaps with an assumed time passage, just to help it all make sense.

*So:* yes, "Splitting your attention to 2 different dreams is experiencing each one with half the experience. The unconscious attention doesn't exactly add experience to the episodic memory."  But no, _after waking,_ that equation quickly becomes invalid, and you will tend to remember 2 different dreams that each lasted as long as the entire dream combined.  Therefore, even though it has no effect on time at the time, splitting consciousnesses or dream schemata during a dream will make it seem, after waking, that you dilated time itself -- and it would be hard to convince yourself otherwise, once the memory has fully burned in (remember this next time you argue with someone who insists they had a dream that lasted a month).

Delusion, perhaps, but, given the weight we place on memory determining our reality, this is one delusion that can seem literally real.

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## LouaiB

ok, I am convinced! Maybe the quality of the dream decreases, but the time still seemed longer.

But I have to arfue with one thing: A human brain can only split attention to only 2 actions symoltaneously. So maybe 2 hour dream, but not a month!
But, there is another technique for making the dream feel much longer. This tech doesn't envolve splitting awareness. It is like watching a movie: A movie that has a time period of years in its plot, but lasts 2 hours. When it is done, you feel like you have spent much more time than 2 hours! Maybe it is also filling the memory gap.

Another question comes to mind: Can we split our attention to more than 2 actions happening symoltaneously? Let alone a 100?
Phycologically imposible.

Say, we can do the split attention time dilation(SATD I call dibs) in waking life too!

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## Dthoughts

> Excellent concept though; I only hope I properly understand it!



I think you got it right. I just made it up yesterday though, what can i say, I guess i'm inspired. But yea, you have created extra memories of time. Mylenes' mentioned the book example and i think it is a okay analogue but my explanation might be more to the point and truthful, lol.  :smiley:  You are indeed doing interesting things with the concept of time itself in dreams. That is interesting, don't you think? I think Mylenes is a genius for thinking this up. I just spend hours yesterday trying to understand what he means and I think I get it now.





> Agreed... and advanced LD'ing is an excellent tool for discovering that console, finding out who is manning it (i.e., us or Him), and maybe learning how to work it at will ...







> * Erase everything from your dream, including any trace of your own DC dream body and its tools for perception. Then consider where you are.



I see it now, it really is inspiring me to do more lucid dreaming. I think this example you gave here is quite a useful starting point as well. Did you do this? What conclusions did you come to? Where are you!?  :tongue2: 





> However, I believe the rest of that esoteric belief wraps around the concept that, once God installed sentience into our beings, He lost the ability to control us, to directly oversee us as though we were a part of Him (as He does the angels). In other words: yes, God divided Himself up into multiple bits, but even He could not include His own self-awareness in us when we became sentient -- our self-awareness trumped His. I wonder if He was really annoyed, or really excited by that?



Well it essentially implies that we are god. Just like in the dream example, there still is that connection to the Original lucid dreamer. But I have seen someone imply that god is actually "sorry" for his creation, speaking for all the wrong-doers and demons and suffering. It kind of spiraled out of control while god just divided up his consciousness in the first place simply because he was lonely. Now there's a whole sentient universe and some irreversable process is taking place. Neat little theory  :tongue2: 

I'll come back to that list of urs and try them out in lucid dreams. Very interesting practices you mention here Sageous, thanks a lot for sharing mate!  ::D: 





> Now I understand what you mean! Multi-tasking 2 dreams. The car example was helpful, but I am skeptic that, even with the conscious and unconscious working very 'close', you would still store the 2 different memories so well. Conscious attention is different than unconscious attention. When we do a thing, we have all our attention to it, but multi-tasking splits our attention. How does the unconscious add more attention to that equation? Again, the car example is splitting conscious attention, which will store events to the memory.
> 
> tl;dr: Splitting your attention to 2 different dreams is experiencing each one with half the experience. The unconscious attention doesn't exactly add experience to the episodic memory. Correct me if I'm wrong.



I agree with your skepticism. That is why i think we should really just try it to see what happens. And how does the unconscious add more attention to that equation? Well.. In the same way that the unconscious controls sentient-like behaviour in a DC in dreams, right? 

Try insulting a DC. It looks like it is offended or it can react with indifference. Either way, it suggest a cognitive process of "Feeling insulted, or feeling above the insult" is taking place. But in reality there is no congnitive process, you just simply see the DC react as if it was another person with his own thoughts-process outside of yourself.





> The unconscious attention doesn't exactly add experience to the episodic memory.



Or it does, maybe. When you experiencing awareness in all ur clones in a dream you are not exactly unconscious. I really think i agree that you have only half-attention but you still have a decent portion of awareness on all the clones so you do make extra memories. It is probably not that extreme a form of time extention.

PS: Take me with a grain of salt, i might say some stupid things its just that I guess i'm inspired and i don't feel like letting this go anything soon  :smiley: 
PSPS: Aah, i see i have missed a part of the conversation >_<

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## LouaiB

Yes.
My argument is that you can't remember something if you didn't pay attention to it, even if the unconscious is working on it. And we can't split our attention to more than 2 actions at a time, so time dilation would be only double, not a hundred, or even 3! And when you dilate time, the experience of each action will decrease because you have less attention on it(it's like when you play a video game and watch tv at the same time, you won't enjoy the single action as much as performing it alone(aka with your full attention).
I think this is not about consciouss, but about attention.

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## Brizzl

Ok.

Can we get a raise of hands here of those who have actually successfully dialated time? If we can get those people to speak up and compare their experience against the people hypothesizing, I think we would get more conclusive results.

No?

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## Sageous

> I think you got it right. I just made it up yesterday though, what can i say, I guess i'm inspired. But yeah, you have created extra memories of time. Mylenes' mentioned the book example and i think it is a okay analogue but my explanation might be more to the point and truthful, lol.  You are indeed doing interesting things with the concept of time itself in dreams. That is interesting, don't you think? I think Mylenes is a genius for thinking this up. I just spend hours yesterday trying to understand what he means and I think I get it now.



If Mylynes is a genius, that would make you a super-genius!  If I remember right, Mylynes actually got it wrong, because he thought time will just dilate if you clone yourself a bunch of times (with, of course, no explanation of how that cloning occurs), and that dilation would occur in some sort of arithmetic progression based on an assumption that each clone would be self-aware and be independently experiencing time's passage.  In other words, he did some fairly simplistic logic based on, well, base-less assumptions (i.e., that more versions of you = more time _literally_ created, self-awareness can be split) with which I still firmly disagree; not exactly genius, from my perspective.  Your short clarification (and, I might add, _correction_) proved much more sensible, and led me to wonder if time-dilation might be possible, if only in post-event memory.   Sorry, I seemed to have dissed Mylynes again ... that honestly was not intended, and I certainly don't want to get into another chat about Mylynes' credibility, so I'll leave it at that (I hope you will as well). 





> _* Erase everything from your dream, including any trace of your own DC dream body and its tools for perception. Then consider where you are._ 
> 
> 
> 
> I see it now, it really is inspiring me to do more lucid dreaming. I think this example you gave here is quite a useful starting point as well. Did you do this? What conclusions did you come to? Where are you!?



Yes, I've done this several times; indeed, it's one of my favorite high-lucidity actions.

I don't know if I came to any conclusions, and even if I did, I doubt those conclusions would line up much with those of someone else who did this.  But:

What I experienced was quite transcendental for me (here comes the "you had to be there" part with no clear description).  While existing in pure nothing (I used to say "floating," but Shadowofwind corrected me, saying that if nothing is there, including you, then there is no floating going on), I experienced a sense of timelessness and peace that is very difficult to describe.  The existential release of understanding that, though there is nothing here, _I am still here_, was exhilarating and left me much to think about upon waking.  One thing I thought about was that this must be what the Zen Buddhists are talking about when they suggest letting go of ego (though I still have problems with this practice, as ego = identity, and w/out identity, I never would have felt that exhilaration).  

You really must be there to appreciate what this time out of time and space feels like or means to you.  I also assure you that, even if I could describe what it is like to exist in an infinite manner, and to appreciate that this kind of existence might be more available to us than we think, I bet that what you experience might be very different -- this is, in its most perfect sense, _your_ universe; what you make of it, how you interpret it, and where you think you went is up to you.

Where was I? Nowhere. Everywhere. Both.  You had to be there (not, of course, that there even was a "there" there!)... I hope you will -- and when you do, don't forget to consider where you are _during_ the event as well as upon waking!





> I'll come back to that list of urs and try them out in lucid dreams. Very interesting practices you mention here Sageous, thanks a lot for sharing mate!



No problem; and here's hoping I don't live to regret it!  :wink2: 





> Try insulting a DC. It looks like it is offended or it can react with indifference. Either way, it suggest a cognitive process of "Feeling insulted, or feeling above the insult" is taking place. But in reality there is no congnitive process, you just simply see the DC react as if it was another person with his own thoughts-process outside of yourself.



Another excellent example!






> My argument is that you can't remember something if you didn't pay attention to it, even if the unconscious is working on it.



I'm not entirely sure of that.  As my driving analogy might have inadvertently noted, your unconscious was doing the attention-paying to the other things while you were occupied with accident avoidance.  I wouldn't underestimate both your unconscious ability to absorb detail, pay attention to multiple things (things of which you are sometimes not even aware), but to store things in memory that you never consciously noticed (i.e., much day residue is things that you might not ave consciously paid attention to when they happened, but were still stored in your memory.).

In other words, you can and do remember things to which you were not consciously paying attention.  If not, then all those subliminal stimulation companies are in a lot of trouble!





> And we can't split our attention to more than 2 actions at a time, so time dilation would be only double, not a hundred, or even 3! And when you dilate time, the experience of each action will decrease because you have less attention on it(it's like when you play a video game and watch tv at the same time, you won't enjoy the single action as much as performing it alone(aka with your full attention).



Though I won't argue with the splitting into 2 "limit," because from a psychological standpoint that sort of makes sense; though I would argue that the _illusion_ of a greater number of splits could certainly occur, and that might be enough for later memory manufacture. And remember also that that memory manufacture includes filling in the gaps where you were not consciously paying attention -- ask the driver of that car about his near-accident, his phone conversation, and the problems he was thinking about at the time, and I imagine he will have a full description of each thing, with little regard -- or memory -- of the necessary pauses from each at the time.





> I think this is not about consciousness, but about attention.



Probably, because in the end _every_ conscious event is about attention (I'm a big fan of paying attention; even wrote a book about it once).  But attention comes in many forms, and some of those forms are snugly embedded in your unconscious as it processes your sensory data, sorting the items to which you would be most inclined to pay attention -- and alerting you if necessary, from the less important or suddenly back-burner stuff, which also is being filed in memory, at least for a short time.  Oh, and even though I'm making it sound like your unconscious is some sort of intelligence or being quite separate from you, I do not mean to do so; it's _all_ you!

So yes, it is all about attention, but don't underestimate the power of your entire mind to pay attention -- even if it is doing so after the fact by adding "missing" detail to gaps in memories.

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## LouaiB

we posses these attention abilities in waking life too. So it is like when you feel you had a long day, ir that some actions took forever to finish.

Hmmm... So in dreams, we have a stronger way to increase(or focus, or whatever) that unconscious attention? That is why it is more effective than waking life? Interesting!
But doesn't that unconscious attention direct the experience to a different memory? So it wouldn't be really that you are experiencing a hundred dreams at once, because the rest of the attention is, well, sublimenal. So, maybe a longer sense of time, wait what? I just said it would be a different memory! The sublimenal memory gives a time effect too? I think. So, your memory fills those gaps. Amazing! Time dilation by means of unconscious memory! Weird!
Where is Zoth when we need him!

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## Dthoughts

> Ok.
> 
> Can we get a raise of hands here of those who have actually successfully dialated time? If we can get those people to speak up and compare their experience against the people hypothesizing, I think we would get more conclusive results.
> 
> No?



Yes, That is exactly why i am saying we should start trying these techniques, so we can compare the results!

If you could just help out that would expand our database of results.  ::D:

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## LouaiB

So, how do we add subconscious attention exactly? By expanding the subs job?(aka bigger dreamscape or multiple dreamscapes)

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## Brizzl

This thread has created an excessive amount of controversy haha. 

Alright! Dthoughts, I accept the challenge. Everyone else who had their doubts should do their share of work to see to these method's truths.

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## Sageous

> So, how do we add subconscious attention exactly? By expanding the subs job?(aka bigger dreamscape or multiple dreamscapes)



Simply by giving it more to do, as you already noted.  Beyond that, you really need do nothing special... okay, nothing _super_ special: incorporate some serious thought and planning about whatever specific method you plan to use to do the "split," like anticipating and perhaps visualizing a multi-screen, multi-plot, ultimately multi-conscious production for your next LD'ing session.   Then let your expectations feed your unconscious so that, come dream-time, it will be ready work with you.  Ultimately, though it takes some time and effort, the set-up is the easy part in this particular game; it's the gathering of your self-awareness and remembering to do the split during the dream that's the real bitch!  Your unconscious will likely be prepared long before you've got your mind in the right place to do this thing properly.

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## Dthoughts

You could try playing an actual chess game with yourself. I think Mylenes does so at times? Mylenes, where the F_ are you, anyway?  ::roll:: 

You could use the double chess game as a starting schematic (Am i using the term right?) and then seperate ways with both players. 

You could also imagine your consciousness as having a form. Could be simply a circle or a square but I think it works best if you use what is most natural for you. It could be something way more complex. If you used the circle you could try to split that circle and imagine you have vision/senses at the poles of each now half-circle and proceed from there. Although, i think the chess thing with the schematic might be way easier, i'm not such a king in dream control i never actually achieved much besides flying.

Also, to be fair.. I think Louia's suggestion of making a bigger dreamscape could potentially have the same effect by adding more novelty thus increasing perception of time in much the same way. But that is not what we are trying to achieve here. Atleast, i'd prefer trying to split consciousness first cus' i think it is really interesting to see what dreams we will get from that. ^^

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## LouaiB

We still need to figure out if the memory of the sub's activities actually gives us a sense of time, or if it is related to the episodic memory, let alone 'combine' with it so the gaps will then appear.

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## Dthoughts

I think that in waking life, subconscious attention has little or maybe no impact at all on future episodic memory, giving weight to ur suggestion that attention is actually limited to one action or focuspoint. We could potentially increase our memory-forming capabilities by increasing focus to multiple activities at once.

I hypothese that there is a relationship between memory formation and focus at time of activity. We can test this by taking background music while performing a task. For example, doing the dishes is boring and ur inclined to pay attention to music while doing the task. Try something like that and i think you will agree that you are obviously able to remember song lyrics better than remembering which kind of dishes you did. Start including the dishes in joyful activity like dancing and you will apply focus on the objects as well. You will be able to remember the song lyrics, the dishes _and_ the dance moves but also the exact time at which part of the song you did which dance move and which cup you hold in ur hand when you direct memory to acces the dance passes you used. I can tell you how that would happen, you will instantly start to associate the dance moves with part of a song, so you will vividly recall those 2. 
This one is trickier, so the hardest part might be memorizing the dishes, you don't always pay attention to where you are looking at but images of where you are looking at while doing the dance moves contains visual data of the dishes you are washing. Training yourself to pay attention to the visual field while dancing shuld according to my 'theory' ^^ result in increased capability for memory formation in those areas, btw. Less alzheimer damage etc.

In a dream however, all this might be futile. I think there is reason to think that. Hypnotic recall of forgotten traumas is an excellent example of how that might be reasonable to assume. The imagination is utilized to present memories in. It might be utilized in this way to recall events that are normally dealt with in subconscious behaviour. Just like in the case of trauma where subconscious behaviour is so severe that it needs to be dealt with immediately. But traumatized peope often have repressed their memory so they feel and act in ways that are likely expressed by subconscious activity. Dreams represent the subconscious imagination (Including memories). Lucid dreaming is then the moving image of eternity.  :Shades wink:

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## LouaiB

Woow! This got very complicated.
Well, for dilation, association will not create gaps of memory, so association would not make me feel that more time passed. So it is still 2 max. But the sub's activity is processed in another part of the brain, and has a different part of the memory. These activities created by the sub(aka multiple dreams, field of vision analysis) only add to the other memory. Again, we can make the sub work more, and store more memories, but it stores them in its own memory. I don't think that that kind of memory works for any time dilation purpose except to fill those gaps of the episodic memory. And episodic memory requires conscious attention, so, again, time dilation is 2 max. Sub attention and activity only work on filling the gaps.
This is a suggestion. We need some real scientific brains....Hmmmm

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## Sageous

^^ In lieu of scientific brains, how 'bout a little common sense?

Why not start with a 2-way split, Loaui, without concern at first for greater numbers?  After you get that bit down, and decide you've dilated time, you could move on to sussing out ways to massage your unconscious' attention span.

Not that I want to see the theorizing come to an end, of course; Dthoughts last post was fascinating!

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## LouaiB

Easy for you to say Mr. always lucid lol.

Yes, his last post was very fascinating, and I am not skeptic about the issue of doubling time, but the issue of tripling it, because Istill doubt that subconscious attention really matters in feeling more time except for filling those memory gaps created by double-tasking. 

This can be solved. We can present the issue to a scientist and he would give us the answer right away! Who is the closest thing to a scientist we have here in DV? Zoth!

I aid time dilation, but subconscious attention doesn't add experiences to the episodic memory. And those extra experiences are what are dilating the time of the dream.
Again, only hypothesizing.

Edit: that experiment idea is great!

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## Sivason

> I think that in waking life, subconscious attention has little or maybe no impact at all on future episodic memory, giving weight to ur suggestion that attention is actually limited to one action or focuspoint. We could potentially increase our memory-forming capabilities by increasing focus to multiple activities at once.
> 
> I hypothese that there is a relationship between memory formation and focus at time of activity. We can test this by taking background music while performing a task. For example, doing the dishes is boring and ur inclined to pay attention to music while doing the task. Try something like that and i think you will agree that you are obviously able to remember song lyrics better than remembering which kind of dishes you did. Start including the dishes in joyful activity like dancing and you will apply focus on the objects as well. You will be able to remember the song lyrics, the dishes _and_ the dance moves but also the exact time at which part of the song you did which dance move and which cup you hold in ur hand when you direct memory to acces the dance passes you used. I can tell you how that would happen, you will instantly start to associate the dance moves with part of a song, so you will vividly recall those 2. 
> This one is trickier, so the hardest part might be memorizing the dishes, you don't always pay attention to where you are looking at but images of where you are looking at while doing the dance moves contains visual data of the dishes you are washing. Training yourself to pay attention to the visual field while dancing shuld according to my 'theory' ^^ result in increased capability for memory formation in those areas, btw. Less alzheimer damage etc.
> 
> In a dream however, all this might be futile. I think there is reason to think that. Hypnotic recall of forgotten traumas is an excellent example of how that might be reasonable to assume. The imagination is utilized to present memories in. It might be utilized in this way to recall events that are normally dealt with in subconscious behaviour. Just like in the case of trauma where subconscious behaviour is so severe that it needs to be dealt with immediately. But traumatized peope often have repressed their memory so they feel and act in ways that are likely expressed by subconscious activity. Dreams represent the subconscious imagination (Including memories). Lucid dreaming is then the moving image of eternity.



I have not read much of this thread, but thought maybe someone would find this relevant or helpful. It seems related.
http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-yoga...esson-1-a.html





> *Version 1: Listening to a Noisy World.*
> *Level 1)* Sit in a some what quiet setting, but not a place free of sound. At first just get comfortable and quickly with no special effort determine if any sounds are already being consciously perceived. Sit and just notice which noises you where aware of before paying attention. Now, with your eyes closed, casually explore each noise starting with the most obvious ones. You may first have been aware of the sounds of children playing, and traffic from a near by street. Listen to any of the obvious ones for a moment. Try to visualize in a casual and light manner, what each sound is. *Now, your only goal in level 1 is to move around your environment not physically, but with your sense of hearing.* You should acknowledge the sounds that were already obvious, then move your awareness of sound around. Try to pick up on the sounds you had not been fully aware of. They will be sounds that are not extremely quiet, and will be easy enough to find. You are simply trying to become aware of the fact that while the sounds were there the whole time, you did not consciously perceive them until you focused. 
> In an average attempt at this meditation I can often identify about 8 sounds my brain was choosing to ignore. Make a list in your head that tells you which noises you had clearly been aware of and any new sounds that you begin to perceive while meditating. You will find that at most times the world is full of sound we are choosing not to hear.
> *Level 2)* Repeat the level 1 meditation, but this time you will attempt to maintain aware focus on as many sounds as you can. Take the most obvious noises and pay attention to them. Think to yourself about what you are hearing, then while continuing to listen add the next most obvious noise. You may experience something strange here. This level is actually much harder! At about the time you are aware and focusing on 4 or 5 noises, and when you are scanning for more noises, your brain will attempt to ignore the first most obvious noises. Do not get frustrated; just watch the process with interest. Do not stress or become intense. This level may be practiced for years. You are learning to force your brain to acknowledge multiple sensory inputs. Try to get to where you can stay relaxed and keep a full awareness of 8 sounds at one time.
> *Level 3)* To complete this version get to a point where you can perform daily actions while maintaining the same level of awareness as level 2. Here is an easy example. While a person is walking, they will almost always blank out the sound of their own feet hitting the ground. In level 3 do something like go for a walk. While your eyes are open and your feet are moving start to go through the process involved in #2 above. You will be surprised on how foreign trying to hear your own foot steps is if you do not allow your focus to be taken off other things. It is not enough to be able to walk and hear your foot falls. You need to be able to walk casually, hear all the standard noises, and maintain awareness of the sounds of your own feet. If you get good at that add in one more item. Listen to all the normal noises, while being aware of the sound of your feet and the sound of the air moving past your ears, or some other subtle noise your body would normally ignore.

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## Sageous

^^ Thanks for sharing, Sivason!

If you can find time it would be great if you could check out more of the thread; your perspective would be most welcome!

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## EbbTide000

Wow sivason

In about 1975 ish one of my friends told me that he was with a small group of people who were (casually) talking to an old Indian Mahatma. He asked him 

"What is it like to be enlightened?"

The Manhattan quietly and innocently answered:

*"You know, when you look at a tree, how every leaf is a different shade of green? "*

The group didn't want to interupt the Mahatma by saying that* "No"* we don't see that. So they nodded, "yes".

The Mahatma continued

*"Well"

When I listen to that tree, every leaf has a different sound"*

We never even began to imagine that the *ego-free* and *thought-free* state of Enlightenment was s o o o sensuality advanced. 





> *Version 1: Listening to a Noisy World.*
> 
> *Level 1)* 
> 
> Sit in a some what quiet setting, but not a place free of sound. At first just get comfortable and quickly with no special effort determine if any sounds are already being consciously perceived. Sit and just notice which noises you where aware of before paying attention. Now, with your eyes closed, casually explore each noise starting with the most obvious ones. You may first have been aware of the sounds of children playing, and traffic from a near by street. Listen to any of the obvious ones for a moment. Try to visualize in a casual and light manner, what each sound is.
> 
> *Now, your only goal in level 1 is to move around your environment not physically, but with your sense of hearing.* 
> 
> You should acknowledge the sounds that were already obvious, then move your awareness of sound around. Try to pick up on the sounds you had not been fully aware of. They will be sounds that are not extremely quiet, and will be easy enough to find. You are simply trying to become aware of the fact that while the sounds were there the whole time, you did not consciously perceive them until you focused. 
> ...

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## EbbTide000

Wow

'Gold Stars' now earn *30* (community) hall points!

Ok

I'm seriously considering jouning this class:

***

http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-yoga...ml#post1877124

***

Where that "sound" meditation is located. I never joined a class before. 

Sorry for going off-topic, Mylynes.

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## The Cusp

> I hypothese that there is a relationship between memory formation and focus at time of activity. We can test this by taking background music while performing a task. For example, doing the dishes is boring and ur inclined to pay attention to music while doing the task.



You're describing novelty.

I've identified 3 factors that contribute to memory formation.  Repetition, Emotion Reinforcement, and Novelty.  Novelty is essentially the same a repetition, only with a heavier attention footprint.  The more attention you focus into your task, the greater the impression will be on your memory.





> Yes
> Splitting awareness is *impossible psychologically*. Period.



I'll disagree with that.  It's only impossible if you don't have enough awareness to split.  

Awareness is a limited resource, most of which is being used up by egotistical BS.  You need a minimum amount of awareness to sustain your surroundings.  Most of us only have the bare minimum to sustain one reality, never mind two.

I've bilocated in dreams a few times.  The first few times I did it, I had the main dream, and also a smaller pocket dream.  In the pocket dream I was sitting at a desk surrounded by darkness, because I didn't have enough attention to fill it out.

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## LouaiB

awareness is different than attention or self-awareness. We cannot have 2 self-awarenesses. We cannot experience more dreams than our conscious attention can handle.
Attention=focus

If we play 2 video games at the same time for an hour, do we rise up and feel we spent 2 hours?

Can we focus on 10 videos at the same time? We can train our focus to split on several events at the same time, but we can't exceed maybe 8.

Subconscious awareness/attention doesn't save at the episodic memory, so it has nothing to do with adding experiences, so we can't use it with this concept.

I still doubt splitting our attention to several dreams will make us feel more experiences when we wake up because we lived those experiences together, and they will save as a one experience that we only lived with 2 different actions. The memory doesn't split these 2 experiences anyways. It remembers them as they happened, the same time, the same experience, just more hussel, unless someone claims that we live these experiences each with a seperate part of the brain? Splitting attention means the ability to interpret more inputs at the same time.

Sorry, but I am skeptic again. I wish you would really consider what I just said, and what I said is nothing compaired to the real brain facts and studies that would challenge this concept.

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## Nfri

What if this guy Mylynes has actually created a new real universe? What if this is the natural way of creating a new universe? What if we are living in this kind of a universe?

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## LouaiB

Oh I would also like to add that recent studies show that we actually can't multitask, it's impossible.
This backs up my last post too.

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## Dthoughts

I would like to see how they did the tests. I'm always interested on methodology in these studies. Could you link them to me, LouaiB?

Still. If this is actually the case. It's still a long shot from proving that it is not possible to do so in dreams. We may be talking about apples and oranges here.

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## LouaiB

Here's the link:
Think You're Multitasking? Think Again : NPR

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## EbbTide000

You guys on this page, page 4 (Dthoughts, LouaiB, Sageous, sivason*, Cusp and Nrfi) got me remembering. 

In the early 1970's meditaters (my friends and me) would often report astonishing experiences. Mostly expansion to fill a room followed by quick pictures that turned out to be precognitive. Now, after reading what you are saying on this page, I'm geting ideas.

May be it was by habitually shrinking focus to ... umm ... much less ... that, that triggers connection with the ... ummm ... Matrix mind (???) Universal mind, god, oneness ...

And

Well

My enlightenment experience

I was united with everything for a two mile sphere that was sadly shrinking back to the skin of my body and back to the range of my normal human senses. I wasn't just aware of  every birdie, worm, fishy, dog, cat, tree, person. Nup, I was completely in each body including my own (but my own wasn't special).  Then the ego, the "me" slowely and sadly woke-up and drowned out the "cosmic consciousness" ... very sad.

Just thinking ...

There might be an inexplicable something just outside of "thinking" and personal "me" consciousness.  And the entrance to it might be habitually shrinking personal "me" awareness to ... well I don't know ... but a whole lot less than "normal",

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## Dthoughts

Thanks Havago. In essence taking the "oneness" experience, and especially the way you are describing it. We could conduct from that that the real "me" is all-expansive and ego is small in comparison. I think we could theorize that consciousness as a whole is a fragmantation of multiple me's already. The question that comes to my mind (not having had such an experience) is if you seem time distortion was a factor? And would you agree that whole consciousness consists of millions of fragmentations?

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## LouaiB

I would say otherwise. I stand by the idea that the sense of self is an illusion. Without self awareness, we wouldn't be but working machines. We already are, but with an ego, or sense of individuality (self).
So in a sense, yeah, we are like fragments of the whole consciousness. I would rephrase it " we are fragments of the whole interactive world recognizing his separate, but still a fragment, entity each"

Also I love the idea of turning the ego off for a while, would be extraordinary, and I'd say we would in fact remember it, but it might not be so cool, I don't know, it's like not having a self, something like that, I don't think it's a sort of liberation, at least I speculate. Tough topic indeed.

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## EbbTide000

Dthoughts





> Thanks Havago.
>  In essence taking the "oneness" experience, and especially the way you are describing it. 
> 
> We could conduct from that that the real "me" is all-expansive and ego is small in comparison. 
> 
> *(1-)* I think we could theorize that consciousness as a whole is a fragmantation of multiple me's already. 
> 
> The question that comes to my mind (not having had such an experience) is 
> 
> ...



I think I'm going to have to be patient and read the whole thread because I can't understand what you are asking. So I will.

But

My main belief-system is that, the "something" that is just outside the "thinking" and personal "me" is the one-and-only "big entity", 

1) - *No*, (to me) the "big entity" is not "a fragmantation of multiple me's" (or us's). 

2) - * No* I don't "see time distortion was a factor"

3) - And *no* I don't "agree that whole consciousness consists of millions of fragmentations"

*I think*

 that at the end of time, when the whole universe finally hit Absolute Zero, there was an unimaginable explosion (because at Absolute Zero matter no longer resists energy). The fusion of matter and energy begat infinate energy that became present (instantly) throughout all time and space). The vast majority of this brand new * Big Entity*  cannot fit into the time-space-continuum (from the big bang to absolute zero).

Even though it's energy bounced around within the time-space-continuum (making multiple dimensions) most of the Big Entity is beyond the space-time -continuum.

The Big Entity is "totally merged" with everything (and each of us) in the eternal -*"Now"*  moment.

But

It is not any one of us.

The Big Entity is its own person.

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## Dthoughts

I was asking about time distortion because that is what this topic is about. I just took a wild stab at fragmentention. And honestly, the way I thought about oneness was more of a brilliant gigantic energy source. I am thinking of Alex grey's painting when I say fragmentation. Excuse the big picture but I coulden't find a smaller one.  :tongue2: 



I basically thought of the godhead as the compilation of every individually divided consciousness stream submerged into one consciousness. But I see the fragmentation theory does not hold up. The reason I asked is because we are discussing dividing consciousness into fragments in order to have more experience at the same time. Thus time dilation is in essence having more fragments of consciousness to spend time in. Effectivelly splitting into different dimensions or something. ^_^

LouiaB, what you are referring to is apparently a known occurence to some people and commonly referred to as Ego death. It is supposed to normally be preceided by overwhelmingly desperate thoughts as the ego clings to it's sense of self. But eventually at the moment it "dies" a shift happens and everything is one and peaceful. Or so I heared it happens. I sure think of it as a sort of liberation.

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## LouaiB

Wow it really sounds amazing! Is this what Buddhism do when they melt everything inside the dream?? I would love to experience this sometime (bet it's much harder than it sounds lol)

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## EbbTide000

That thing has at least 103 eyes.

I wonder if it is the same thing that * Waking Nomad*  istalking about in post number 4 (???)
?
?





> I was asking about time distortion because that is what this topic is about. I just took a wild stab at fragmentention. And honestly, the way I thought about oneness was more of a brilliant gigantic energy source. I am thinking of Alex grey's painting when I say fragmentation. 
> 
> Excuse the big picture but I coulden't find a smaller one. 
> 
> 
> 
> I basically thought of the godhead as the compilation of every individually divided consciousness stream submerged into one consciousness. But I see the fragmentation theory does not hold up. The reason I asked is because we are discussing dividing consciousness into fragments in order to have more experience at the same time. Thus time dilation is in essence having more fragments of consciousness to spend time in. Effectivelly splitting into different dimensions or something. ^_^
> 
> LouiaB, what you are referring to is apparently a known occurence to some people and commonly referred to as Ego death. It is supposed to normally be preceided by overwhelmingly desperate thoughts as the ego clings to it's sense of self. But eventually at the moment it "dies" a shift happens and everything is one and peaceful. Or so I heared it happens. I sure think of it as a sort of liberation.



Here is post number 4:





> Haha. Reminds me of the time when I first got into lucid dreaming, and I battled you in Outer Space. You turned into a big room surrounding me, every wall, ceiling floor covered in all kinds of eyeballs staring at me, you freak! I was really creeped out. lol I didn't know how to fight you, so I think I teleported away. 
> 
> Maybe you can do a dream control class in the DV Academy, or if you want, you can run a class in my sub-forum, Dreamwalkers. People keep joining it, but no one posts anything. Maybe you can get some life back into it with your creepy creative vibe. Any time you want to start a Dream Control class in my sub-forum, the invitation is open. Songi Klara!



Well I think we can merge with the Big Being. And when we do we are aware of the Big Beings awareness of our individual, personal ego, (as in my "me") and also many other "real" animal, plants and human characters too but from the Big Being's perspective.

And that causes *THIS* type of * POWERFUL*  outer world * Synchronization*

★★★

http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...-reloaded.html

★★★

Checkout post number one "the sharks"

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## Dthoughts

> That thing has at least 103 eyes.



Did you count?  ::D: 

I do find it typical that WN's encounter with Mylenes depicts him as having loads of eyes. Perhaps his consciousness splitting practices have anything to do with it, which might give his astral presence this sense of having multiple eyes. He has been a master of dream control for a long time judging by his posts. If there is an astral world he must have a strong presence there. WN could not defeat him. 





> Wow it really sounds amazing! Is this what Buddhism do when they melt everything inside the dream?? I would love to experience this sometime (bet it's much harder than it sounds lol)



Albeit I think it is easier to achieve in a dream I think it is also possible to be awakened during physical experience. And/or the two might overlap.

Oh and Havago. I am in love with the light spirit you hold. Keep doing what you are doing love.

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## DoctorFoxy

Did you manage to do it?

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