# Off-Topic Discussion > The Lounge > Ask/Tell Me About >  >  Tell me about Pentecostal, and why people fall over in church!

## magical mike

Ok, so I am not sure how to spell it but... Pentecostal..
Anyways, I went to this youth explosion thing for teens only, and I was there with my twin sister. and I dint know anyone, but we were all parying for like 15 hours a day non stop, except for to eat..
But anyways, on the last day, I was parying, and I started to fell like I was WILDing..
I was like Oh sweet I am WILDing weird lol...
But then I thought oh its like an OBE..
Then I felt like I was floating in the air!
My eyes were closed, and I felt like a 20 hands on my back, and I seen an angel (I thought I was dreaming but I wasent)
Then it felt like I went back down to the ground, and my leggs felt like jello, and I kept shaking and laughing, then I fell face forward and slammed my face on the stairs, and it dint hurt, and I just laid there all shaking around laughing, and I couldent stop shaking for like 2 hours after wards..
I have no idea or anything about pentecostal or what it is, or why. or how people fall over.
But I see it on TV all the time, I asked a guy there, and he said I was slain in the power of the lord, or something, i told my mom when I got back, and she acted like she dint care..
Was this just hypnosis or what?  I wasent faking it BTW I swear!

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## Jeff777

> Ok, so I am not sure how to spell it but... Pentecostal..
> Anyways, I went to this youth explosion thing for teens only, and I was there with my twin sister. and I dint know anyone, but we were all parying for like 15 hours a day non stop, except for to eat..
> But anyways, on the last day, I was parying, and I started to fell like I was WILDing..
> I was like Oh sweet I am WILDing weird lol...
> But then I thought oh its like an OBE..
> Then I felt like I was floating in the air!
> My eyes were closed, and I felt like a 20 hands on my back, and I seen an angel (I thought I was dreaming but I wasent)
> Then it felt like I went back down to the ground, and my leggs felt like jello, and I kept shaking and laughing, then I fell face forward and slammed my face on the stairs, and it dint hurt, and I just laid there all shaking around laughing, and I couldent stop shaking for like 2 hours after wards..
> I have no idea or anything about pentecostal or what it is, or why. or how people fall over.
> ...



I used to go to a pentecostal church for over a year.  They run through the pews, through the aisles, do back flips, holy ghost dances, and speak in an unknown tongue they believe to be a heavenly language.

What's the difference between a mental institution and a pentecostal church?  The church lets their people leave after 3 pm.

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## magical mike

Seriously? I mean it felt so real!
It was like a dream!

And I was saying things as I was parying that just slipped of my tounge, and I dint know what thay were.
It was something like
Ae, shanono it was weird...
I hope no one thinks I am a freak..

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## Bearsy

It's just an emotional/psychological/chemical response to external stimuli(i.e. the hundreds of people around you doing the same thing).

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## magical mike

oh, ok well that was still cool, its like a drug!

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## juroara

its so easy for everyone and their mother to make fun of pentawhatever

of course its easy for the non believer to say "hallucination". but lets not forget that altered states of mind are the back bone of all spiritual beliefs and mysticism, including christianity. its why christians meditate, its why you fast, sometimes for days, sometimes for weeks. its all about clearing the mind and being able to easily fall into an altered state where its believed you can be closer to the divine

and this belief in the trance is practically universal across culture and religions. the yogis are doing it so why not?

its not practiced so much in mainstream christianity, but hey, lets face it, mainstream christianity is boring. you can go to church your entire life and experience nothing spiritual!! what was the point of that?

lets all trance!!

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## magical mike

ok, I agree with you.
It was really great.
Sometimes I fell the same way I felt at the church after I awake from a lucid dream.
Its weird.
Thanks for your insight!

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## Scatterbrain

Is this it?



HOLY GHOST! ROFL!

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## DeathCell

> its so easy for everyone and their mother to make fun of pentawhatever
> 
> of course its easy for the non believer to say "hallucination". but lets not forget that altered states of mind are the back bone of all spiritual beliefs and mysticism, including christianity. its why christians meditate, its why you fast, sometimes for days, sometimes for weeks. its all about clearing the mind and being able to easily fall into an altered state where its believed you can be closer to the divine
> 
> and this belief in the trance is practically universal across culture and religions. the yogis are doing it so why not?
> 
> its not practiced so much in mainstream christianity, but hey, lets face it, mainstream christianity is boring. you can go to church your entire life and experience nothing spiritual!! what was the point of that?
> 
> lets all trance!!




Thank you for saving me the trouble of typing.

+1

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## magical mike

Yeah thats it, Its weird... Except the one I went to was called, Youth something, and it was like a rave, and with no old people.

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## Moar Pens

Wow. I'm PENECOSTAL and I take offence to half of the stuff here. Yes, we play with snakes. Yes, we speak in tongues. And yes, we are pretty psycho. But that does not give you the right to insult us.

As for the OP..

_"All Bible-believing Christians who study the Word of God are in agreement that the gift of tongues is present in the inspired Scriptures. In the New Testament two lists of gifts appear in which the gift of tongues is included. In 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 kinds of tongues and the interpretation of tongues are said to be sovereignly bestowed gifts of the Holy Spirit. In 1 Corinthians 12:28-30 tongues appears in the list of gifts. We call them spiritual gifts from the Greek word charisma, suggesting that the gift is a bestowment of Gods grace. It is not a natural ability that one might develop, but rather a special gift as those appearing in the above mentioned passages in First Corinthians.

The Holy Spirit is sovereign in the distribution of these gifts. Following the listing of the gifts, Paul adds, But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will (1 Corinthians 12:11). No one person has all the gifts, nor are we to seek the gifts. We must be careful that we do not confuse the Spirit as a gift to the believer with the gifts the Spirit gives to believers. Every believer has received the gift of the Spirit, but not every believer has received the gifts which the Spirit bestows." 1_

What all that bibletalk means is that God will bestow upon you the language of the tongue, or the understanding of the tongue. Never both. Usually one will speak out, and if anyone that has the understanding of the tongue, they will translate what was spoken in tongues to a language that everyone can understand (i.e. English).

And that basically sums all of that up. One of the reasons you could've possibly fallen out is because you were filled with the holy spirit. The only other thing I can think of, which is completely hypothetical, is that your twin somehow shared her emotions and feeling through you telepathically. 

Which suits your fancy?

1.Lehman Strauss, Litt.D., F.R.G.S. (http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=393)

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## magical mike

WOW So cool!
I can speak in tounges!
I wonder what it means!
I should have asked someone!
I still remember what I said, but will it still work? Or is it an ever changing language?

And I dont remember my sister falling over or anything.
so I dont think the telepathy thing is right, I am sure I was filled with the lord or what ever

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## Scatterbrain

> Wow. I'm PENECOSTAL and I take offence to half of the stuff here. Yes, we play with snakes. Yes, we speak in tongues. And yes, we are pretty psycho. But that does not give you the right to insult us.
> 
> As for the OP..
> 
> _"All Bible-believing Christians who study the Word of God are in agreement that the gift of tongues is present in the inspired Scriptures. In the New Testament two lists of gifts appear in which the gift of tongues is included. In 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 kinds of tongues and the interpretation of tongues are said to be sovereignly bestowed gifts of the Holy Spirit. In 1 Corinthians 12:28-30 tongues appears in the list of gifts. We call them spiritual gifts from the Greek word charisma, suggesting that the gift is a bestowment of Gods grace. It is not a natural ability that one might develop, but rather a special gift as those appearing in the above mentioned passages in First Corinthians.
> 
> The Holy Spirit is sovereign in the distribution of these gifts. Following the listing of the gifts, Paul adds, But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will (1 Corinthians 12:11). No one person has all the gifts, nor are we to seek the gifts. We must be careful that we do not confuse the Spirit as a gift to the believer with the gifts the Spirit gives to believers. Every believer has received the gift of the Spirit, but not every believer has received the gifts which the Spirit bestows." 1_
> 
> What all that bibletalk means is that God will bestow upon you the language of the tongue, or the understanding of the tongue. Never both. Usually one will speak out, and if anyone that has the understanding of the tongue, they will translate what was spoken in tongues to a language that everyone can understand (i.e. English).
> ...



Not all Christians subscribe to that, I was raised Catholic and at least 75% of the people in my the local church (counting even the old and less educated ones) would laugh their asses off if they saw anyone speaking in "tongues" or doing anything of that sort.  ::lol:: 


Of this I have no doubt: Jesus (if he actually existed) would much rather have you helping those in suffering instead of wasting time doing a silly dance and speaking gibberish.

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## juroara

> Not all Christians subscribe to that, I was raised Catholic and at least 75% of the people in my the local church (counting even the old and less educated ones) would laugh their asses off if they saw anyone speaking in "tongues" or doing anything of that sort.



I was grown up catholic too

and why I can't stand catholicism anymore

catholics are so...materialistic in their world view compared to other religious groups

You can't talk to other catholics about mystical, supernatural or spiritual experiences in your life. Not really. The conversation gets awkward. Catholicism leaves no room to openly talk about spirituality in a serious manner. 

in another religious culture, you can talk about ghosts. You can talk about the spirits of deceased loved ones and your experiences with them. You can talk about dreams. But the average catholic, theres no telling how serious they would take such a delicate conversation. Roll their eyes and do the coocoo sign behind your back

or maybe I'm completely wrong

maybe its just that so many catholics these days are so westernized into a materialistic life and world view that separates heaven from earth

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## juroara

_"All Bible-believing Christians who study the Word of God_ [/quote]

this is the first problem

most christians who study the so called Word of God, haven't. Here is what they have done - they read the bible, they didn't understand the translation. because one, its usually old English - two the original isn't in english and makes many time based cultural references

and three - they are usually CHILDREN when they start 'studying' the bible

so the poor dear child gets to a sentence, a passage, a word they don't quite understand "what does this mean?" and in this case "what does it mean to speak in tongues?"

and the adult, usually the parent answers - what they were told by their parents - who were told by their parents - who were told by their parents

"it sounds like gibberish"

the child then trusts their parents, who were told by their parents, who were told by their parents, who were told by their parents - that this explanation of speaking in tongues must be true - that it sounds like gibberish. 

how many christians question the INTERPRETATION of their holy text? how many christians are asking Jesus himself to give them the understanding of a passage through the holy spirit in them? how many instead rely on other people, OTHER PEOPLE to tell them what 'this' 'means'


don't trust what your pastor, what your father, or who ever told you how to interpret the bible - do the research yourself. especially with the internet, there is loads of new information that the average christian didn't have access to before

and if you do the research - there are other interpretations of speaking in tongues. to hang onto one understanding of speaking in tongues and refusing to learn the others, is willful ignorance

and one of them says, it means that the person will speak all tongues at once. they will speak a language that is not a human language - but a language that is simply understood because it is purest language. so it wouldn't matter what language you speak - you will understand the person speaking in tongues. imagine an angel speaking to you and at the same time someone in the same room who doesn't speak english. what language did the angel speak? 

it would make no sense for someone to speak GIBBERISH, and then we need an interpreter to tell us what this gibberish means. when Jesus teaches you NO ONE stands between you and Christ. Wouldn't it be contradictory then to hang on the words of one person? To rely on this person to tell you what Christ has to say?

yet that is what christians constantly do. they go to ANOTHER PERSON to tell them what Christ is saying

that is the difference between a true spiritual christian, and a christian sheep - and the sheep goes...BAAAAA

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## Moar Pens

> _"All Bible-believing Christians who study the Word of God_ 
> 
> this is the first problem
> 
> most christians who study the so called Word of God, haven't. Here is what they have done - they read the bible, they didn't understand the translation. because one, its usually old English - two the original isn't in english and makes many time based cultural references
> 
> and three - they are usually CHILDREN when they start 'studying' the bible
> 
> so the poor dear child gets to a sentence, a passage, a word they don't quite understand "what does this mean?" and in this case "what does it mean to speak in tongues?"
> ...



I completely agree with most of what you say. Most of which is what you said in the first two paragraphs. You seem to think most of us Christians are unable to think for ourselves. I was not raised to be a Christian. I was never taught the bible, no one in my family ever prayed, and we certainly didn't go to church. So, as time grew on, I adopted Atheism.

Of course, we all know how skeptic Atheists are. My thought process was very logical. I found the whole concept of a benevolent being impossible. I started dating a girl who was Christian, and after going to church with her for a party I ended up just TRYING to pray, and suddenly all the doubt was gone. Everything was lifted off of my shoulders and I knew that I had found what I was looking for.

As I had found God that way, without much earlier knowledge of Christianity itself, I started to study the bible. Without anyone else's opinions on the meaning of the scripture clouding my mind, I was able to take in each passage. And you say no one asks for a true understanding of the bible? You are wrong. I studied, and as I did I prayed more about that than anything else. It was only after I found the first church I've ever gone to, the one I still go to now, when I discovered most Christians do ask for an understanding of His Word.

And to be honest, I'm not entirely booked on the idea of speaking in tongues, either, but there seems less fault in it than anything else I can come up with. I've also prayed on it, and from what I can tell, I was right. Who knows? Maybe the true meaning of scripture is subjective to all of us.

And also, the Gifts that the Spirit give us will not keep us from God or His Son. People may never experience either of those things, and neither is necessary to grow in Christ and join Him in the afterlife. You didn't see me saying "If you don't speak in tongues, or understand it, you're going to hell." Because that isn't true. As materialistic and as far from God as Catholics may be, if they have faith and have the sin cleansed from their heart, they will go to Heaven. The same is true with any single other Christian denomination.

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## Scatterbrain

> I was grown up catholic too
> 
> and why I can't stand catholicism anymore
> 
> catholics are so...materialistic in their world view compared to other religious groups
> 
> You can't talk to other catholics about mystical, supernatural or spiritual experiences in your life. Not really. The conversation gets awkward. Catholicism leaves no room to openly talk about spirituality in a serious manner. 
> 
> in another religious culture, you can talk about ghosts. You can talk about the spirits of deceased loved ones and your experiences with them. You can talk about dreams. But the average catholic, theres no telling how serious they would take such a delicate conversation. Roll their eyes and do the coocoo sign behind your back
> ...




I disagree completely.

But keep in mind when I say Catholics I don't mean Catholics from the US, I'm talking about the Catholics I meet in my daily life, as here in Portugal most of the population is Religious and Catholic, at least to some degree. However, when I say non-Catholics I'm referring to those from the US that I'm always meeting on the Internet, saw on TV, etc. (I've never met one outside those mediums)

Comparing those two, I'd say Catholics are much more sane than the rest. I've never seen a Catholic promoting Creationism. If a parent complained that it should be taught in science classes, the teachers would just roll on the floor laughing. Many people actually think I'm joking when I first tell them there are creationist movements and "controversy" surrounding evolution in America. (the only time I've even saw someone rejecting evolution it was a Jehovah's witness, or orthodox church, or something)

Catholics don't have that witchcraft paranoia either (calling many things, like new age practices, demoniac, the devil's work, satanic, etc).

But then again, it might just be that fanaticism is innate to America and not non-Catholics. It's probably unfair to compare Catholic Christians outside the US with non-Catholic Christians from the US.

Either way, Christianity is bullshit regardless of the sect you happen to subscribe to.

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## magical mike

I just dont wana go to hell...
Seriously.
I Guess all I need is to let god know I know I am sinner..
right? hope so.
I mean I never know if I am going to heaven or hell..

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## DeathCell

> I just dont wana go to hell...
> Seriously.
> I Guess all I need is to let god know I know I am sinner..
> right? hope so.
> I mean I never know if I am going to heaven or hell..



Hell is an illusion.


Life is where you are tested.

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## Scatterbrain

> I just dont wana go to hell...
> Seriously.
> I Guess all I need is to let god know I know I am sinner..
> right? hope so.
> I mean I never know if I am going to heaven or hell..



How do you know hell and heaven are real?

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## hellohihello

That's awesome did people give you weird looks? Did they help you up? Maybe it was a dream. Having an obe in a church would be insane.

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## lily

You say you spent the whole week praying. How much sleep did you get? Sounds at least possible that it could have been an effect of sleep deprivation.

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## Jeff777

C'mon guys...seriously...speaking in tongues?  It's not even an interpretable language!  Jesus's life is a complete plagiarism of the Egyptian God Horus's life.  Our leaders are crazy for believing in it...don't tell me the lot of you do as well. Mike, I'm happy for you if you're happy...however, I emplore you to look into how the Christian faith originated and the truths behind it.  Research material from objective sources.  This means do NOT go up to your pastor and ask him to tell you about the bible's origins.  Chances are he doesn't know himself, so he will probably spoon feed you regurgitated mess that he once heard someone say during seminary class or saw on TBN.

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## Jeff777

_




The story of Horus was around over 1,000 years before even the old testament (first books of the bible) were written, let alone the new testament.  Please read all of the below information.



_

_[Research all of the below for yourself, and you'll find out.  Christianity, however teaches you "not to wander outside of the bible (or Jesus) for questions.  Hmm...I wonder why?  Perhaps because they didn't want you to know the below information? ]_

-Horus's earthly title? KRST meaning the anointed one
-Jesus's earthly title?  Christ meaning the anointed one

-Horus was conceived by a virgin
-Jesus was conceived by a virgin

-Horus was Osiris's only begotten son
-Jesus was God's only begotten son

-Horus was the sun god
-Jesus was the "son" of god

-Horus's mothers name was Meri
-Jesus's mothers name was Miriam, which translates into Mary

-Horus had a foster father named Seb
-Jesus had a foster father named Joseph

-Horus's annunciation was by an angel to Isis
-Jesus's annunciation was by an angel to Miriam, his mother

-Horus's birth was heralded by the sirius morning star
-Jesus' birth was heralded by an unidentified "star in the east"

-Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (typically DEC-21)
-Incidentally enough, Jesus's birth date is celebrated on Dec. 25.  The ORIGINAL date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus, and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable sun)

-"HERUT" tried to have Horus murdered as a baby
-"HEROD" tried to have Jesus murdered as a baby

-Break in life history?  Horus's life went from age 12 to 30
-Jesus's life went from age 12 to 30

-Horus was baptized at age 30 in the Erdinaus river by Anup
-Jesus was baptized at age 30 in the Jordan river by John

-Both baptizers in both stories were beheaded

-Temptation?  Horus was taken from the desert of Amenta by "Sut" to a high mountain where his arch rival "Sut" aka (Set) tempted him
-Jesus was taken from the desert in palestine to a high mountain by his arch rival Satan and was tempted by him as well

-Horus Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind, and "stilled the sea by his power"
-Jesus walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind and ordered the sea to calm by saying "Peace be still"

-How was Horus killed?  By crucifixion
-How was Jesus killed? By crucifixion

-What'd Horus do after death? He descended into Hell and ressurected after 3 days
-What'd Jesus do after death?  He descended into hell and ressurected after 3 days

-Horus's ressurection was announced by women
-Jesus's ressurection was announced by women

-Future prophecy about Horus: Will reign for 1,000 years in the millenium
-Future prophecy about Jesus: Will reign for 1,000 years

-Horus is commonly portrayed as an infant being held by his virgin mother Isis
-Jesus is commonly portrayed as an infant being held by his virgin mother Mary





> THIS is an Egyptian Ankh, the gods were frequently seen holding it.  It is often mistaken for the cross which is associated with Jesus.  Thing is, this Ankh was around a millenia before Jesus's time as well.
> 
> 
> THIS is the cross we all know so well today.  I'm not sure if the cross was plagiarized from the ankh (I haven't read any comparisons between the two) but I wouldn't doubt it.



*So please...tell me...(since the story of Horus was around over 1,000 years before the story of Christ) why any rational man or woman would blindly follow such a plagiarized religion.  Thomas Jefferson (one of america's forefather's) hated religion so much, he created another bible (taken from the christian new testament) except the took out everything about Jesus proclaiming himself divine and how you can get to heaven through him.  He called the bible "The faith and moral teachings of Jesus of Nazareth".  Aside from all the divinity, heaven and burn in hell talk...the bible is not a great book to read.*

Everyone (yes, everyone...even you atheists) have an inner desire to know where we came from and meet our maker.  Religion, exploits this need and makes billions of (tax exempt) dollars each year by doing so.  I don't perceive to _know_ who or what "The Creator" (if you believe in that sort of thing, perhaps the multi-verse theory is your preference) may or may not be...I do know that I don't like ignorance nor do I like people who exploit those who have a burning desire to know what "God" is.

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## magical mike

@Scatterbrain  



> How do you know hell and heaven are real?



Just incase right?

@hellohihello  	



> That's awesome did people give you weird looks? Did they help you up? Maybe it was a dream. Having an obe in a church would be insane.



No no one gave me weird looks, there was alot of others doing it.
No, no one helped me up, I just laid there for a while lol.
And no it was not a dream, I remember what I was doing hours before, and hours after. In fact I have a T-shirt thay gave us for going.
I dont think there are OBEs but just Lucid Dreams.

@lily  	




> what happened?
> You say you spent the whole week praying. How much sleep did you get? Sounds at least possible that it could have been an effect of sleep deprivation.



No I dont think I said week, if I did I meant 2 days lol.
We got there at 8am, then took brakes for lunch, dinner, and a few other brakes..
And left after like 14 hours (a long time) I think it might have been midnight.
Then we went back the next day and did the same thing (Happened to me on the second day)
So It might have been SD.
but IDK

@Jeff777
What if all those facts, are just tests to test our faith? I sound like a hypocrite talking about OBEs being just LDs.
But I dont know, I really dont wana go to hell.
Its not a big deal if I believe in it anyways right? I mean, theres nothing else that could go wrong if what I believe in is real when its not.
But yeah. I totaly understand what your saying though.
But what if you like die one day, and you go to hell? That would suck right?
Just because you dont believe in it dose'nt mean it might not be real?
IDK, I dont wana start any arguments  ::D:

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## Jeff777

> @Jeff777
> What if all those facts, are just tests to test our faith? I sound like a hypocrite talking about OBEs being just LDs.
> But I dont know, I really dont wana go to hell.
> Its not a big deal if I believe in it anyways right? I mean, theres nothing else that could go wrong if what I believe in is real when its not.
> But yeah. I totaly understand what your saying though.
> But what if you like die one day, and you go to hell? That would suck right?
> Just because you dont believe in it dose'nt mean it might not be real?
> IDK, I dont wana start any arguments



So you choose to believe in something out of fear of what could be possible.  That's scare tactics.  Have fun bro...whatever makes you happy I suppose.

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## magical mike

well, Kinda but not really..
Its just the way all this was forced upon me.
But IDK.
Ill reasearch it some more.
 ::D:

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## Scatterbrain

> But I dont know, I really dont wana go to hell.
> Its not a big deal if I believe in it anyways right? I mean, theres nothing else that could go wrong if what I believe in is real when its not.



The thing is there are as many religions as there are people. For example: what if the Muslim god exists? He'll send you to hell for worshiping the false Christian god.

You're never "safe" from eternal damnation, there'll always be thousands of beliefs saying you'll get hell.






> Everyone (yes, everyone...even you atheists) have an inner desire to know where we came from and meet our maker.



What's the big revelation here? With Atheists being those that don't settle for faith and are usually people of science, it's expected for them to be very curious about the Universe.

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## Jeff777

> The thing is there are as many religions as there are people. For example: what if the Muslim god exists? He'll send you to hell for worshiping the false Christian god.
> 
> You're never "safe" from eternal damnation, there'll always be thousands of beliefs saying you'll get hell.



Agreed.





> What's the big revelation here? With Atheists being those that don't settle for faith and are usually people of science, it's expected for them to be very curious about the Universe.



As we all are, religion exploits this inner desire to "know" and atheists (imo) believe there is no creator so they'll invent theories as to how the universe came into existence.  As long as their research doesn't lead them to find the tiniest bit of evidence for a creator, they'll accept it.  ie Multi-verse theory.  There's no evidence of it whatsoever but for fear of admitting the annoying "we told you so" creationists right...they came up with that theory and it's now being accepted among scientists...without any proof of its existence...what...so...ever.  In essence, they created a theory and chose to accept it without any evidence of it.  Religion works on the same premise.  And that's science bubba.  If you are an atheist, that makes atheism your new religion, and a religion it is.

Take the cosmological constant for example, it's too finely tuned for even scientists and cosmologists alike to write off as _accidental_.  *No* force in the history of cosmology has ever been discovered to be _that_ finely tuned.  The cosmological constant needs to be set to one part in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion...otherwise the universe would be so drastically different, it'd be impossible for us to evolve.  Random chance of this occurring is out of the question.  Physicists didn't like that this cosmological constant points to an intelligent creator (which it does)...therefore they thought up the multi-verse theory  :smiley: 

Look, I don't believe the religious zealots are right...as I said earlier, I think that there MIGHT be an intelligent creator, I haven't ruled that out yet.  However, I seriously doubt (as I mentioned earlier) organized religion "figured it out" as they claim to have.  Perhaps the god theory is correct in saying the universe (pre-big bang) was comprised of infinite potential that needed to express itself through infinite experience therefore it chose to experience itself through life forms.  I preach the gospel of I don't know and when I say I don't know...that means I don't know WHAT there is and I don't know what there isn't.  Atheism preaches the gospel of "I know what isn't...but I'm still working on what is."

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## Scatterbrain

> As we all are, religion exploits this inner desire to "know" and atheists (imo) believe there is no creator so they'll invent theories as to how the universe came into existence.  As long as their research doesn't lead them to find the tiniest bit of evidence for a creator, they'll accept it.  ie Multi-verse theory.  There's no evidence of it whatsoever but for fear of admitting the annoying "we told you so" creationists right...they came up with that theory and it's now being accepted among scientists...without any proof of its existence...what...so...ever.  In essence, they created a theory and chose to accept it without any evidence of it.  Religion works on the same premise.  And that's science bubba.  So welcome to the church of Atheism.
> 
> Take the cosmological constant for example, it's too finely tuned for even scientists and cosmologists alike to write off as _accidental_.  *No* force in the history of cosmology has ever been discovered to be _that_ finely tuned.  The cosmological constant needs to be set to one part in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion...otherwise the universe would be so drastically different, it'd be impossible for us to evolve.  Random chance of this occurring is out of the question.  Physicists didn't want to entertain the idea that this cosmological constant points to an intelligent creator (which it does)...therefore you have the multi-verse theory 
> 
> Look, I don't believe the religious zealots are right...as I said earlier, I think that there MIGHT be an intelligent creator, I haven't ruled that out yet.  However, I seriously doubt (as I said above) organized religion "figured it out" as they claim to have.  Perhaps the god theory is correct in saying the universe (pre-big bang) was infinite potential that needed to express itself through infinite experience therefore it chose to encapsulate itself into life.  I preach the gospel of I don't know and when I say I don't know...that means I don't know WHAT there is and I don't know what there isn't.  Atheism preaches the gospel of "I know what isn't...but I'm still working on what is".




That's not quite what Atheism is. I can't speak for all Atheists, but at least for me and every one I've met, Atheism is usually a rejection of the belief in god(s), but that doesn't mean there's a desire for the rejection. The belief in gods is not entertained because there's no trace of evidence to back it up, some gods are just plain silly and declared as non-existent right away (Christian god for example).

While god or anything of the sort hasn't been observed or even properly described, an idea like the multiverse is a smaller stretch because we already know at least 1 universe exists. Anyway, the existence of a multiverse isn't currently accepted by scientists, it's regarded as just an hypothesis. Beyond the Big Bang and our Universe we don't what there is.


I don't like the fine-tuning argument because not only it assumes the Universe could have been another way but it also assumes what may and what may not vary in the Universe.  ::?: 

The fact is we don't know why the Universe has the constants it has and the why of their magnitude. For what we know, assuming that current constants could have had different values is as valid as assuming that there could have been completely new constants, the possibilities are endless. For every imaginable Universe that doesn't support life there's another one that does.

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## Lucid Lobster

What if there was proof? To settle it all?  Like for example, there's proof (thanks to Newton) that if you walk off a 60 story building GRAVITY will have a final say so as to whether you walk into school or work the next day. F = GMm/R&#178;

Remember, all this stuff (matter/energy) came from somewhere and that argument

"it was just a quantum flucuation 15 billion years ago creating something from nothing, BANG" 

seems kind of unacceptable in many camps here in 2009. Of course there are also those that say, "stuff's ALWAYS been here" but then .. 

the mind boggles.

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## magical mike

Gosh, why cant there be just one FACT THAT EXPLAINS IT ALL!
No freaking guessing..

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## Lucid Lobster

> Gosh, why cant there be just one FACT THAT EXPLAINS IT ALL!
> No freaking guessing..



Great point. It's a big universe and a big thing called life so I guess that's just the way it is. I'd not however base your beliefs and the rest of your life (and possibly beyond) upon something someone in a forum, me or anybody types. It's up to you to discover. Some will believe in the bible others the Koran others nothing because there seems to be arguments to support all sides on the surface.  

From what I've learned though is if you really want the truth it'll find you. As far as Pentecost, according to the biblical book of Acts miraculous events occurred that day. If you believe there's the slightest chance that any of that "bible stuff" might be true you might want to study the topic a bit further.
If not then no need.

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## magical mike

Studing..
I hope I will find the truth one day.

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## Zhaylin

No offence to the believers...

I had no religious guidance when I was growing up, but I was always drawn to God.  The only church goer in my clan was my grandmother, who took me to church with her, but I only saw her during the summer.
I searched for God all my life and studied with more denominations than I can now recall.  I became disgusted with Christianity after awhile and turned to Paganism, Spiritism etc.  but I couldn't bring myself to worship other gods, so I returned and kept looking.
When I was about 18 I studied with the Pentecostals and I went to Church with them a couple times.  I always studied the Bible on my own and realized that when people spoke in tongues, there was always someone else who understood them- an interpreter.  But at this Church, there were no interpreters, just chaos.
As I studied more, I realized that tongues were a temporary gift.  It was supposed to be used to help spread the word of God of foreign Countries. Now-a-day, there's no need for tongues.
Just because some may prophecy or do powerful works, doesn't mean the power is from God.
Matthew 7:21-23 says:
"Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22*Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name? 23*And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness."

So people should search out the Scriptures, for themselves and not rely on the teachings of others alone.

There is no reason to fear hell.  It doesn't exist.
Psalm 37:28,29
"...But as for the offspring of the wicked ones, they will indeed be cut off.
29*The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it."

When hell is spoken of in the New Testament, it's neing used as hyperbole.  Hell simply means the common grave of mankind.  When the wicked are distroyed, they will be completely and eternally destroyed.
Let me know if I can help [email protected]

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## magical mike

Thanks!
I will continue to search for answers and study this.
I think I will always be a christian, I just fell right with it.
I dont know.
But yeah. I still wouldent want to live for ever on the earth.
But yeah.
thanks again  ::D:

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## Zhaylin

No problem.. any time  :smiley: 
You sound like my children.  They say it would bore them to death.  I tell them:  Imagine what life would be like in a perfect world... all the things you can learn and do.  How the food would taste when it grows like it should in a perfect environment.  I tell them to imagine the ways people can invent clean technology and how the deepest parts of the ocean may be able to be explored and how we may even be able to migrate to other planets (if no one dies, the world would get very overpopulated unless 1- God stops procreation 2- other options become available).
So try to have an open mind.  Forever doesn't necessarily equal boredom  :smiley: 
Much success to you on your spiritual journey.

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## Lucid Lobster

> Thanks!
> I will continue to search for answers and study this.
> I think I will always be a christian, I just fell right with it.
> I dont know.
> But yeah. I still wouldent want to live for ever on the earth.
> But yeah.
> thanks again



Great points made by everyone. Once again, don't take what any of us give to you as fact. 
There are indeed multiple views and interpretations of "is hell real or not?".  None of us especially me can tell you emphatically that here's a fact, believe it, believe that

"Hell exists" 

or conversely,

"Hell does NOT exist".

I can however tell you what I believe and the reasons why but I can't give you a 100% iron clad fact that you should believe something simply because I say it's so. By my beliefs it only takes a micro-second in time to stop all your worries forever and you'll never have to worry about it again but then again, that's my belief .. not everyone's.
Keep your mind open, listen to everyone and study it all a bit on your own.

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## Jeff777

> Studing..
> I hope I will find the truth one day.



Scatterbrain had a good point.  Saying that you want to believe in Jesus just to be safe is ridiculous because of the thousands of other religions out there who tell possible suckers believers the same thing.  Except they swap out the name Jesus for their god.

Churches are tax exempt (Churches are not required by the government to pay any taxes...what...so...ever.)

Therefore when your pastor talks to you about offering 10&#37; of your money to God...he really means himself, possibly other officials there at the church, and a church bank account.

Look at this for a bit, let's do some math...I was bored one day and decided to do this.  My friends mom is a Christian woman and she believes in the power of tithing money.  She always gives 10% of her monthly income to "God".  She makes roughly $10,000.00 a month so she gives 1,000 a month to her church.  That's $12,000.00 a year.  She's been doing this every month, every year for 25 years.  The bible says (and this is my paraphrased version) that if you give 10% of your income, God will multiply it 100 fold.  Okay, by this rationalization...God is saying your church is a stock that always goes up and your return will be 100 fold every single time.  Now let's see how much this "100 fold stock" God was talking about in the bible was supposed to net my friend's mom after 25 years of investing $1,000.00 per month into her church...

$1,000.00 /month x 12 months = $12,000

$12,000 x 100 = 1,200,000

1,200,000 x 25 years = $30,000,000.00

Thirty million dollars...yes that's correct.  Does she have this money? Hell no.  This "100 fold stock" is full of hot air.  Yet 25 years later she still heavily believes that tithing is worth it.  I believe giving to charities is worth it, using your money to buy wells in Africa where they have none is worth it, buying a meal for a homeless person is worth it.  Giving up 10% of your income each month to a church who offers you nothing back but messages of hope from a plagiarized fictitious god that came out of the irrational bronze era is NOT worth it.  

I'm not telling you what to believe mike, society and religion serve that purpose.  Sooner or later you have to make up your own damn mind.  I'm just trying to get you to _think_ and ask questions without fear.  I know what it's like.  I too was a Christian...hardcore Christian.  Speaking in tongues, dances...the whole 9 yards.  It bothers me that we have schizophrenics locked in mental institutions when half the world thinks they're hearing a spirit speak to them from the clouds.  Learn how to think and ask the right questions in spite of fear of what others might think of you...that's where courage comes in.  We're no different, you and I.  I want to know the truth, just like you.

I spoke to my beloved cousin (whom I view as a brother) awhile ago.  He's much younger than me, about 17 years of age.  He'll be going to college in a few months.  He had been a christian all his life because (like so many others) that's how he was raised.  When I revealed a bunch of information to him and introduced him to a series of movies he told me he felt so empty inside...like I just snatched something he believed in...away from him.  He said he felt lost knowing about all these Gods who carried the bio of Jesus before Jesus was born.  He told me he didn't know what to turn to.  It took him awhile but he's learning to stand on his own without feeling he needs to believe in the heaven and hell ideologies to make it in this world.  And...he's happy.

If you're the type of person who still thinks it's best to be "safe than sorry" by believing in Jesus for fear of damnation, then I've wasted my time and continuing this now or in the future is futile.  However, if you're the type that's not afraid to ask questions, stand on his own two feet and do some heavy research then this post has not been in vain.  You seem like a good kid and I think you'll do just fine in life...whatever path you choose to follow.  Just make sure it's *you* whose made the decision to follow what path that may be.  Learn to _think for yourself_ Mike, just learn to think.

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## Zhaylin

Not all Christian denominations have a paid clergy class.  Jehovah's Witnesses are such that do not.  We have no tray passed around, there are boxes for donations near the door and we give whatever we want.  At the begining of every month, the secretary goes over the donations and how they were applied:  local expenses; what was given to the head quarters in NY for expenses (making books, magazines etc); what was given to the head quarters to be used to make other Kingdom Halls (which is what we call our church).  Yearly, we receive a report from NY which tells us where the money went to.  Even the head quarters are staffed by volunteers.  
We know exactly how the money is used and no one is sent to the poor house because they had to give more than they could afford  :smiley: 

Again... do research.  Blanket statements are not always true.

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## Jeff777

> Not all Christian denominations have a paid clergy class.  Jehovah's Witnesses are such that do not.  We have no tray passed around, there are boxes for donations near the door and we give whatever we want.  At the begining of every month, the secretary goes over the donations and how they were applied:  local expenses; what was given to the head quarters in NY for expenses (making books, magazines etc); what was given to the head quarters to be used to make other Kingdom Halls (which is what we call our church).  Yearly, we receive a report from NY which tells us where the money went to.  Even the head quarters are staffed by volunteers.  
> We know exactly how the money is used and no one is sent to the poor house because they had to give more than they could afford 
> 
> Again... do research.  Blanket statements are not always true.



Thank you for that.  I was not aware of how Jehovah Witnesses handled their money, so thank you.  However, be that as it may, the issue of church finances (which you attacked) does not compensate for the idiocy that is Christianity and religion itself.  Attack my main argument above and not something fickle such as where the money goes.  How do you feel knowing your Jesus has an uncanny plagiarized biography stolen from many gods before his "alleged" time here on earth?

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## Zhaylin

No problem  :smiley: 
I singled that out because it was a subject I knew the most about.
That there are similarities between Paganism and Christianity (etc) is a moot point to me because I believe in Satan and the demons and I wouldn't put it past him to create such to lead people away from Bible understanding.
For me:  God Created the earth, animals, Adam and Eve etc.  Adam and Eve had children and verbally passed on their knowledge to them.  Cain set out on a course of his own and the stories evolved from there.  After the flood and the branching out of the families, the stories likewise evolved.
To say that Paganism (etc) originated before Christianity is absolutely true (inasmuch as Christianity wasn't established until after the death of Christ).  But the beliefs of God (Jehovah) were first (upon which Christianity was built).
So, with me, it's truly a circular argument if I'm speaking with someone who devoutly believes that Christianity was built upon myths because I devoutly believe it is Paganism which is a perversion [for lack of a better word] of Christianity.

As a Christian, my beliefs encompass not only the New Testament, but the Old as well.  And Jesus was prophesied about as early as Genesis 3:15 which predates all other beliefs.

Great points though, and great topic!

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## Jeff777

> I believe in Satan and the demons and I wouldn't put it past him to create such to lead people away from Bible understanding.



My uncle said this too when I asked him about it.  You do realize you just created that belief on the spot to circumvent the blatant truth that the other ancient religions and gods pre-dated Jesus and therefore it was Jesus's life that was plagiarized...not the other way around.  This is almost as ridiculous as when I heard a christian tell me that God put the dinosaur bones throughout the earth to test our faith.





> For me:  God Created the earth, animals, Adam and Eve etc.  Adam and Eve had children and verbally passed on their knowledge to them.



You do also realize that it's impossible for one woman and one man to populate the entire planet right...the creation story is no different (in terms of rationalism) and no more asinine than Joseph Smith's creation story.  After all, in both cases men sat down to write something up they both said "God told them to write".  Furthermore, science came thousands of years after the bible was written.  In biblical times they believed sea monsters were a definite sea hazard...they believed constellations were really conscious celestial gods and they also believed the Earth was flat (if I'm not mistaking the time periods).  From the SAME time period...these are the same minds who wrote a bible built on rational _truth_ and end-all knowledge?  Seriously...come on...





> After the flood and the branching out of the families, the stories likewise evolved.



There was no great flood.  At least not one that covered the entire earth.  Had there of been one, there would be sedimentary evidence for this "world-wide flood" everywhere...yet there isn't.  Scientists have already deemed this great flood to by merely a myth.  However, seeing as more than one culture wrote about this flood (the mesapotamian's did as well) that may give SOME ounce of credibility to this.  Seeing as minds back then were very primitive and exaggerations and superstitions ruled the minds of man...I believe the flood may have been an isolated case (like new orleans for example) and their minds might have exaggerated their location to be inclusive of the entire earth.  Also if Noah had of gathered 2 by 2 of every animal...it would have taken hundreds of thousands of years for him to finish.  Yet people blindly accept this crap and everyone has their own story and set of beliefs...thus more blood is shed over religious dogmas than anything else.  Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and John Adams were right in their beliefs that religion was poisonous to man.





> So, with me, it's truly a circular argument if I'm speaking with someone who devoutly believes that Christianity was built upon myths because I devoutly believe it is Paganism which is a perversion [for lack of a better word] of Christianity.



Let me get this straight...dionysus, mithra, Krishna, Attis, Horus and tens more...came BEFORE Christianity...(pre-Jesus's alleged birth) and yet YOU call THOSE religions and god's a perversion?  Lady, everything is the same in your book that is in their books, the only difference is that the names changed.  Horus was called KRST the anointed one and Jesus was called Christ the anointed one...Horus walked on water and was dead for three days and so was Jesus.  Christianity doesn't get more perverted than that.   ::?:   The difference is, kind woman, you are being made aware of these things yet you choose to blindly submit to a dogmatic religion that serves no other purpose than helping you sleep soundly at night because you believe you will probably be one of the 144,000 to be with Christ in heaven and reign.  All...evidence points to Christianity as being plagiarized bullshit.  Wake up and smell the fecal matter.





> As a Christian, my beliefs encompass not only the New Testament, but the Old as well.  And Jesus was prophesied about as early as Genesis 3:15 which predates all other beliefs.







> Genesis 3:15 (King James Version)
> 
> And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
> 
> Taken from - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...:15&version=9;



...are you kidding me.   ::wtf::   There's no mention of Jesus in that scripture nor is it relevant to the subject matter at all.  I don't even feel like addressing this even further because your credibility with that just got shot out the window.





> Great points though, and great topic!



I don't get why you people (religious people) just can't be satisfied in NOT trying claim you know the way to eternal life.  Religion is irrational, illogical, science came thousands of years after most religions were brought forth, men created these religions out of their heads and wrote them down, christianity is plagiarized, there was no world-wide flood and yes...the earth is much older than 5 - 10,000 years.  I'm not atheist...but I sure do understand why people are flocking to atheism in huge numbers.  If there is an intelligent creator behind all of this (which I think is true) you guys (religious people) are sure giving "it" a bad reputation.   ::?:

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## The Cusp

> Gosh, why cant there be just one FACT THAT EXPLAINS IT ALL!
> No freaking guessing..



There is, it's called DEATH!  Just be patient.

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## Lucid Lobster

> There is, it's called DEATH!  Just be patient.



 :smiley:  Good one. AND, that's when we'll finally know if side A is right or side B.  Unfortunately at that point we won't be able to log in to this board to tell everybody. That would be spooky.

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## Scatterbrain

> It bothers me that we have schizophrenics locked in mental institutions when half the world thinks they're hearing a spirit speak to them from the clouds.



My thoughts exactly.



Zhaylin, what if I told you that Set planted the bible to turn us away from Horus?

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## Zhaylin

Very good arguments.  But, dear sir, part of the meaning of Genesis 3:15 is the "sacred secret" which is spoken of in the New Testament.  Yet unbelievers will never understand it even if evidence is presented before them (Mr 4:11,&#160;12)
Jesus IS the seed spoken of.
For a very detailed explaination, ask one of Jehovah's Witnesses for the book "Revelation- It's Grand Climax at Hand".  We accept donations which go toward the making of such books, but everything we offer is free.  Or you could go to http://www.watchtower.org/e/archives/index.htm#animals which is an index on a great variety of topics.  Or, specifically, http://www.watchtower.org/e/200606b/article_01.htm which explains what the original sin was and briefly explains Jesus' role.

As for there being a world-wide flood... it didn't have to be global.  There's no way that mankind spread to every corner of the now known planet.  It's possible that the flood only covered the entirety of the THEN known world.

As for believing unscientific things (as in the world being flat), the Bible rejected such beliefs.  Two examples:
"Isa. 40:22: “There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth.” In ancient times the general opinion was that the earth was flat. It was not until over 200 years after this Bible text had been written that a school of Greek philosophers reasoned that the earth likely was spherical, and in about another 300 years a Greek astronomer calculated the approximate radius of the earth. But the idea of a spherical earth was not the general view even then. Only in the 20th century has it been possible for humans to travel by airplane, and later into outer space and even to the moon, thus giving them a clear view of “the circle” of earth’s horizon.

Animal Life: Lev. 11:6: “The hare . . . is a chewer of the cud.” Though this was long attacked by some critics, the rabbit’s cud chewing was finally observed by Englishman William Cowper in the 18th century. The unusual way in which it is done was described in 1940 in Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London, Vol. 110, Series A, pp. 159-163."


As for the world being populated first by Adam and Eve and later by Noah, Shem, Ham, and Jepeth (sp) and their wives... Look at how long people lived back then.  If I alone became pregnant as early as 15 and had a healthy child every year until- say, the age of 40, how many children would I have had?  About 25.  And say, half of my children were female and started reproducing at the age of 15 and each of them had 25 children.
Those numbers add up very quickly!!  Back then they didn't have heriditory diseases as we do today.  Just as animal breeders sometimes inbreed their stock to bring out disirable qualities and traits.
And in Noah's day, the animals didn't have the fear of man that they have today.  People didn't eat meat until after the flood (proof, to me, that they were getting further from perfection and didn't need it until after then).  It's also possible that God made the animals more peaceful for the process.  As for there only being 2 of each, the account states that in some instances, 7 were brought.

"Of the clean beasts and fowls, seven of each kind were to be taken. A great quantity and variety of food for all these creatures, to last for more than a year, also had to be stowed away.—Ge 6:18-21; 7:2,&#160;3.
The “kinds” of animals selected had reference to the clear-cut and unalterable boundaries or limits set by the Creator, within which boundaries creatures are capable of breeding “according to their kinds.” It has been estimated by some that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals today could be reduced to a comparatively few family “kinds”—the horse kind and the cow kind, to mention but two. The breeding boundaries according to “kind” established by Jehovah were not and could not be crossed. With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. Others have been more liberal in estimating that 72 “kinds” of quadrupeds and less than 200 bird “kinds” were all that were required. That the great variety of animal life known today could have come from inbreeding within so few “kinds” following the Flood is proved by the endless variety of humankind—short, tall, fat, thin, with countless variations in the color of hair, eyes, and skin—all of whom sprang from the one family of Noah."
Noah didn't build the ark over night.  It took him anywhere from 50 to 60 years to build a vessel that was 1,400,000 cu ft large!

Animal Life: Lev. 11:6: “The hare .&#160;.&#160;. is a chewer of the cud.” Though this was long attacked by some critics, the rabbit’s cud chewing was finally observed by Englishman William Cowper in the 18th century. The unusual way in which it is done was described in 1940 in Proceedings of the&#160;Zoological Society of London, Vol. 110, Series A, pp.&#160;159-163.

As for believing I'll be going to Heaven... first let me say it's very refreshing that someone knows something of our beliefs!!  But, the majority of all Witnesses alive today believe they will be resurrected to life on the Paradise Earth.  There's around 6 million JW's worshipping today- only about 8,000 claimed to be of the 144,000 last year.


I've been working on this reply for about an hour lol.  It's a topic I greatly love and research often.  But I missed Scatterbrain's comment, to which I reply with a respectful chuckle (for I rarely "laugh" lol)- Good point.  And such would be your right.  Which is why I say the argument is "circular".  If two people feel very passionately about something, they may never see eye to eye on a matter.  But I still respect the rights of everyone to believe as they will.  And I deeply apologize for my very poor choice of wording in my earlier post.

Now, I must eat  ::D: 

Oh yes... the quoted portions above were taken from "Insight on the Scriptures" and "Reasoning on the Scriptures"- both published by Jehovah's Witnesses.

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## magical mike

Ahh, so much info!!
But talking about the tithes, it dosent always comeback the same way you gave it.
Like uhh if I gave 10 bucks, dosent mean, I would find 100$. I could have a really happy day or something.
IDK something like that, is what I was told... Again I need to read that in the bible lol..

I fell so bad that I am not typeing up near as much as everyone else here.
Its just because I really dont have any arguments, I am just reading these all really..

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## Jeff777

Firstly, thank you for taking your time to write such an elaborate and well-thought out post.  Now let's get on with this shall we?

One of the more amazing things in our modern world is the persistence of belief in utterly ridiculous things. Religion itself I can understand, since people really, really want to believe, and all successful religions are ever-evolving and vague and all-encompassing enough that most everyone can find some aspect of it to keep believing in. But actual details of religion, especially ones that are directly contradicted by common sense and multiple schools of modern knowledge, perplex me.





> Very good arguments.  But, dear sir, part of the meaning of Genesis 3:15 is the "sacred secret" which is spoken of in the New Testament.  Yet unbelievers will never understand it even if evidence is presented before them (Mr 4:11,*12)
> Jesus IS the seed spoken of.



No Jesus is NOT the seed spoken of.  I read the word seed but it didn't say anything about  a Jesus, Yeshua, Jehovah etc. coming from a lineage of David.  Do you see how irrational this is?  Putting aside all logic for a moment, I will illustrate things a bit more.  PRE-SUPPOSING that Gen 3:15 WAS about a savior...(which it obviously isn't) anyone could have come along later and filled this position.  Hell anyone with a decent knowledge of magick tricks could have convinced the world built heavily on superstition back then that they were the one foretold about in Gen 3:15.  Again, pre-supposing Gen 3:15 was about a savior, you see how all that was necessary was for some guy experienced in parlor tricks to come along and say "Here I am! I'm the guy that the scriptures talked about!  Worship me!"  Now...seeing as Jehova's _thought up_ this _sacred secret_ thingy that "Oh! only believers will understand!" it's no wonder why this argument is hardly a moot point, merely a dead one.  We are similar, you and I...both of us are in search for truth, the difference however...is I don't claim to have found it through baseless dogmas devoid of intelligence and lacking in evidence.





> For a very detailed explaination, ask one of Jehovah's Witnesses for the book "Revelation- It's Grand Climax at Hand".



No.  Why would it make sense for me to try and gain rationalism and logic from a book created by those who are irrational and illogical?  This "buy the book" quote is no sillier than me creating a religion based on the flying spaghetti monster and unbelievers coming up to me and asking me how I can rationalize such a silly thing.  My response (similar to yours) would be "Further proof is in another book I wrote".  You see how your religion creates more books and manly interpretations to support THEIR beliefs?  It's a circle of ignorance, and lies in which you all (religious people) happily run around in...not caring they're believing in something with about as much logic as Aesop's fables (after all, in both stories...they had talking animals).





> As for there being a world-wide flood... it didn't have to be global.  There's no way that mankind spread to every corner of the now known planet.  It's possible that the flood only covered the entirety of the THEN known world.



Agreed.





> As for believing unscientific things (as in the world being flat), the Bible rejected such beliefs.  Two examples:
> "Isa. 40:22: “There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth.” In ancient times the general opinion was that the earth was flat. It was not until over 200 years after this Bible text had been written that a school of Greek philosophers reasoned that the earth likely was spherical, and in about another 300 years a Greek astronomer calculated the approximate radius of the earth. But the idea of a spherical earth was not the general view even then. Only in the 20th century has it been possible for humans to travel by airplane, and later into outer space and even to the moon, thus giving them a clear view of “the circle” of earth’s horizon.



Apparently you fundamentalist like using this argument a lot.  Hmm.  Isaiah describes the Earth as being a circle...NOT a sphere.  A circle is a flat two dimensional shape and a sphere is three dimensional.  Contrary to some assertions, Hebrew does have separate words for "Circle" and "Shere".  Isaiah 22:18 refers to throwing a ball.  Earth is NOT described as a ball.  Earth is also describes as being like the floor of a tent, with the sky spread out overhead.  Isaiah probably imagined a universe like a tent.  The Earth was the roughly circular flat floor and the sky was like a hemispherical fabric covering.





> Animal Life: Lev. 11:6: “The hare . . . is a chewer of the cud.” Though this was long attacked by some critics, the rabbit’s cud chewing was finally observed by Englishman William Cowper in the 18th century. The unusual way in which it is done was described in 1940 in Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London, Vol. 110, Series A, pp. 159-163."







> Christian Evangelist Dr. Norman Geisler confirms he does not believe in rabbits chewing a cud in the literal modern sense, rather an observational viewpoint... and short, concise answer "No, they do not", with excerpts from dictionary.com defining what cud is, scientific research on digestion/refection in rabbits, and theologians themselves speak on hares and alleged cud chewing from the book of Leviticus and Deuteronomy.
> 
> "Rabbits also produce normal droppings, which are not re-eaten."
> Rabbits, cavies and related species have a digestive system designed for coprophagia. These herbivores do not have the complicated ruminant digestive system, so instead they extract more nutrition from grass by giving their food a second pass through the gut. Soft caecal pellets of partially digested food are excreted and generally consumed immediately. They also produce normal droppings, which are not re-eaten.
> 
> Source: Encyclopedia Coprophagia



I don't think that the inerrantist attempts to try and justify the verse about rabbits being "ruminants" makes any sense. Especially since the Hebrew word means to "bring up," not poop out. More likely they simply noted the APPEARANCE that rabbits have of chewing grass for a long time, and some rabbits may have APPEARED to bring up their food again.





> As for the world being populated first by Adam and Eve and later by Noah, Shem, Ham, and Jepeth (sp) and their wives... Look at how long people lived back then.



What are you talking about...there's no recorded evidence of how long people lived back in the alleged "flood era"...(and don't you dare cite the bible as accurate historical evidence)





> If I alone became pregnant as early as 15 and had a healthy child every year until- say, the age of 40, how many children would I have had?  About 25.  And say, half of my children were female and started reproducing at the age of 15 and each of them had 25 children.



Christians believe God is an "unchanging" God.  Therefore by this logic, if you have a son Zhaylin, it's perfectly okay for to reproduce with him today seeing as God was okay with it back then.  This is the same God who apparently told Abraham to kill his son to "test his faith" oh! but I thought God knew everything?  Why was it necessary for him to test his faith if he is the alpha AND the omega (meaning he KNEW whether or not Abraham had faith in him or not)?  This is ALSO the same God who calls himself "jealous"...like an age-old eternal infinitely wise God who harps about us needing to transcend "the flesh" could harbor such petty human emotions such as jealousy and anger.  

Romans 12:19 - "Vengeance is mine saith the lord"

Definition of "Vengeance" according to dictionary.com

1. 	infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge: But have you the right to vengeance?
2. 	an act or opportunity of inflicting such trouble: to take one's vengeance.
3. 	the desire for revenge: a man full of vengeance.
4. 	Obsolete. hurt; injury.
5. 	Obsolete. curse; imprecation.

Yeah, this god sounds "enlightened" alright.

There was a woman a few years ago who called 911 crying because she killed her two sons.  When the 911 operator asked why she had done that, she said "God told her too."  That would (undoubtedly by most christians) be viewed as a crazy woman.  I wonder why people didn't think that way about Abraham?  Oh that's right...we're just going to take the bible's word for it that he was really channeling a jealous, angry, and yet loving God who told him to kill his son.






> And in Noah's day, the animals didn't have the fear of man that they have today.  People didn't eat meat until after the flood (proof, to me, that they were getting further from perfection and didn't need it until after then).



See now you're talking (and calling it proof) like the flood of "Noah" was historical accuracy.  That's where you're wrong.  Also regarding when people ate meat is not known either.  I doubt a caveman wrote down on his cave wall the first day he ate meat.





> It's also possible that God made the animals more peaceful for the process.



No it's not.  You're pre-supposing the Christian god is real and therefore guessing he did this.  You just formed a hypothesis based on historical inaccuracy.  





> It has been estimated by some that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals today could be reduced to a comparatively few family “kinds”—the horse kind and the cow kind, to mention but two. The breeding boundaries according to “kind” established by Jehovah were not and could not be crossed. With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. Others have been more liberal in estimating that 72 “kinds” of quadrupeds and less than 200 bird “kinds” were all that were required.



Okay...first of all, Noah's ark has been debunked.  Gopher wood was used to build the ark.  People have (on computers) re-constructed the size of this great ark and taking into account what we know of the strength of gopher wood...it would have been impossible to build the ark on gopher wood alone.  The damn thing would have broken apart the minute the waters hit it.

Not to mention after the flood God would have had to teleport the animals to every island and continent on earth, and also massively speed up breeding and evolution so that the few animals/humans in the ark could mutate to fill every ecological niche in just a few hundred years.  He'd also have to do this so it didn't create a fossil record of mass extinctions, somehow keep all of the saltwater fish from dying due to all of the non-salty rain, make 30,000 feet of water evaporate away almost immediately, etc.
Which is logically absurd, but if you really want to believe in it, you can do so.  Pretty much every aspect of Noah's Ark is totally debunked in numerous articles.  One here.





> But I missed Scatterbrain's comment, to which I reply with a respectful chuckle (for I rarely "laugh" lol)- Good point.  And such would be your right.  Which is why I say the argument is "circular".



It's not circular.  You're being made aware of these plagiarisms and logical fallacies yet you still continue to accept them as historical truth.  That's no different than Scatterbrain telling you not to go walking on broken glass but you going and doing so because you believe it's the right thing to do...no matter how illogical, irrational and flat out retarded it may be.  This isn't circular, it's willful ignorance and naivety vs. rationalism.





> If two people feel very passionately about something, they may never see eye to eye on a matter.  But I still respect the rights of everyone to believe as they will.



As long as you're happy and religion is benefiting you, then I am happy for you as well.  However, choosing to remain ignorant and deceived is just that...a choice.  My only problem with JW's, and Mormon's is that they believe so strongly in their nonsensical religions that they feel obligated to wake others up on Saturday mornings and oppress them with their nonsense as well.

Don't misconstrue my post as me being angry with you or taking pot shots at you.  If it came off that way, I emphatically apologize.  I am angry with religion itself (not just christianity) and the smart men and women that choose to believe in such IQ dimmers.

----------


## Lucid Lobster

Great debate folks with thoughtful logical answers. I'll just add to Jeff's "Abraham killing his son" point. There are many more instances in the Bible where God seems to go

"huh?  I didn't know you were going to do that" like when Jonah appeared to change God's mind. If you're omnipotent how can you change your mind if you know how everything since the beginning of time until the end of time plays out?

The book (to those that believe the book) says however that God does not change his mind. If we pull it all out of archaic ancient biblical times and consider the possibility of some kind of being that sits outside of this space/time continuum where the logical flow of time has no meaning it's possible to envision the scenerio where God had no need to test Abraham's faith (for God's proof of concept) but rather for Abraham's benefit and the benefit of those that might read about the incident thousands of years later. 

It's like (for those that believe in all this) praying for a check today and 10 minutes later receiving a check from the mailman at the door. The only problem is, the check was written one week ago.  How could that happen? If I was God living outside of this reality where sequential time has no meaning I think I could pull a trick like that off, knowing a week ahead of time that later you would pray that particular prayer.

You're right Jeff, on the surface there are tons of things written in that book that make you go hmmm. And you're right about the fact that so many people like sheep simply follow the herd and without doing any critical analysis show up at the churches and synagogues and mosques of the world. 

Most of them for example don't even question the problem with believing the bible's chronology from Adam to Jesus when science tells us that there are galaxies flying away from us 15 billion light years away and carbon dating showing the earth to be ancient.  

Fortunately (for me at least) there are answers to most if not all of the issues you raised but it would take 15 billion years for all of us to debate all those issues when in reality nobody on any side is going to change anybody's mind on the other side. 

Good analysis you're putting forth though. You've got your thinking cap on. And, what's up with that talking snake and that sea parting and King Herod supposedly ordering all children killed in Bethlehem when history records no such incident?  Fortunately there are answers for all that and more including that foolish "Don't eat shellfish" order. Now how ridiculous was THAT?

Take all this in stride Magical Mike. Don't get pulled into a religion simply because many around you are following it. Conversely my suggestion is that you at least check it out on your own. Either those so called disciples that wrote parts of the New Testament recorded something that actually happened, were mistaken about what they THOUGHT happened or .. they're all lying. It's up to you to decide.  Those that believe will tell you, it's not so much the words that you read but the mystical communication that occurs between them and God AS they read. Kind of like Darth Vader communicating with the emperor (only without the hologram). If that's true then that the only way to communicate with God (if he exists) is to read then, the more you read the more you'll learn about God. On the flip side the more you read the more you'll discover apparent discrepancies and illogical statements which, if you desire to you can resolve.

----------


## juroara

> I disagree completely.
> 
> But keep in mind when I say Catholics I don't mean Catholics from the US, I'm talking about the Catholics I meet in my daily life, as here in Portugal most of the population is Religious and Catholic, at least to some degree. However, when I say non-Catholics I'm referring to those from the US that I'm always meeting on the Internet, saw on TV, etc. (I've never met one outside those mediums)
> 
> Comparing those two, I'd say Catholics are much more sane than the rest. I've never seen a Catholic promoting Creationism. If a parent complained that it should be taught in science classes, the teachers would just roll on the floor laughing. Many people actually think I'm joking when I first tell them there are creationist movements and "controversy" surrounding evolution in America. (the only time I've even saw someone rejecting evolution it was a Jehovah's witness, or orthodox church, or something)
> 
> Catholics don't have that witchcraft paranoia either (calling many things, like new age practices, demoniac, the devil's work, satanic, etc).
> 
> But then again, it might just be that fanaticism is innate to America and not non-Catholics. It's probably unfair to compare Catholic Christians outside the US with non-Catholic Christians from the US.
> ...



I think we have the same understanding of Catholics actually

When I said materialistic, I mean most Catholics adhere to a scientific understanding of the world

versus another Christian group where science is against the core of their being, such as creationists. 

but while its nice and all that Catholics largely do accept science, what I was trying to say was it has made it hard for Catholics to talk about mystical experiences. And to be fair, other religions have even more terminology to express those kinds of experiences

----------


## hellohihello

Out-of-body experiences

Out-of-body experiences (OBEs) have become to some extent conflated in the public mind with the concept of the near-death experience. However, the evidence suggests that the majority of out-of-body experiences do not occur near death, *but in conditions of either very high or very low arousal.
*
got this from wikipedia.

----------


## Unelias

Well although I don't know anything about pentecostal or whatever, altered states of mind have been used for millenias to reach to the spiritual world. It is quite universal thought that a human cannot ( or rarely can) perceive the mystical entities without special ritual or change of state i.e trance. Usually people who can without it are called oracles, seers, blessed, cursed, priests, elders, the definitions are many as are beliefs.

I do it with my shamanism, I see no problem with any other people do it throught their religion or whatsoever. Trance can be achieved with many means and whatever feel right and comfortable for you. After all, that should be the core meaning of faith. Make you feel comfortable. If you feel that you can be closer of your deity by doing it, it has the right core idea.

----------


## MindDaguerreotype

Probably not the same mechanism, but it would be interesting to watch and compare "Instant Conversion" by Derren Brown : Last half of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKnO6MQCw9Y , and  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzn9rX7rauA

I interpret this as hypnotism or group self-hypnotism...

----------


## magical mike

Yeah, I dont think its really anything like hypnosis, because I use hypnosis in my show, and thay dont do anything a hypnotist would do..

----------


## Jeff777

> Well although I don't know anything about pentecostal or whatever, altered states of mind have been used for millenias to reach to the spiritual world. It is quite universal thought that a human cannot ( or rarely can) perceive the mystical entities without special ritual or change of state i.e trance. Usually people who can without it are called oracles, seers, blessed, cursed, priests, elders, the definitions are many as are beliefs.
> 
> I do it with my shamanism, I see no problem with any other people do it throught their religion or whatsoever. Trance can be achieved with many means and whatever feel right and comfortable for you. After all, that should be the core meaning of faith. Make you feel comfortable. If you feel that you can be closer of your deity by doing it, it has the right core idea.



I agree with this.  Btw, how do you achieve trance through shamanistic rituals?  I have heard of some tribes who rhythmically beat drums to induce a state of altered awareness.

----------


## Unelias

> I agree with this.  Btw, how do you achieve trance through shamanistic rituals?  I have heard of some tribes who rhythmically beat drums to induce a state of altered awareness.



I believe that anything monotonic can cause trance. I usually do monotonic drumming combined with singing or dancing. There are many other ways though  :smiley:  if you are interested I can PM after I get back from my trip.

to the topic : Mass hypnosis isn't an easy feat, but then again we are such social creatures that we follow usually the lead. However, hypnosis is very much too mystical or at least that is what people seem to believe. Planting a seed or thought to someones mind is quite easy, but to make them see something they don't shouldn't be very easy.

----------


## Jeff777

> I believe that anything monotonic can cause trance. I usually do monotonic drumming combined with singing or dancing. There are many other ways though  if you are interested I can PM after I get back from my trip.
> 
> to the topic : Mass hypnosis isn't an easy feat, but then again we are such social creatures that we follow usually the lead. However, hypnosis is very much too mystical or at least that is what people seem to believe. Planting a seed or thought to someones mind is quite easy, but to make them see something they don't shouldn't be very easy.



Sure, I'd love for you to PM me the details about your trance induction upon your return  :smiley: .  Enjoy your trip  :OK Bye now:

----------


## magical mike

Well, it makes me happy to think that I seen a higher power, so I will continue being a christian..
Not one of those closed minded christians..
So yeah  ::D: 
I really aprciate all this guys, thanks  ::D:  who moved the thread again?

----------


## Jeff777

> Well, it makes me happy to think that I seen a higher power, so I will continue being a christian..



Willful naivety and ignorance with a touch of denial.  Whatever works for you and makes you happy then.

----------


## Man of Shred

the falling over and stuff is just a hypnosis technique. it's all a trick. as mind trick magician Derren brown shows us here.

Pt.1



pt.2

----------


## magical mike

lol ok then xD


oh, thanks for posting that Derren Brown video! I dint see those  ::D: 

-edit
Emeding disabled by request. Ill look it up on youtube!

----------


## Man of Shred

> lol ok then xD
> 
> 
> oh, thanks for posting that Derren Brown video! I dint see those 
> 
> -edit
> Emeding disabled by request. Ill look it up on youtube!



 
sorry bout that. search for "instant conversion"

----------


## CoLd BlooDed

I found that video on the first page HILARIOUS.

----------


## magical mike

Yeah, I seen it.
Derren is amazing at what he dose.
I have one of his lectures on DVD xD

----------


## Carôusoul

> I just dont wana go to hell...
> Seriously.
> I Guess all I need is to let god know I know I am sinner..
> right? hope so.
> I mean I never know if I am going to heaven or hell..



And this is it. This is the reason for action.

That _can't_ be right.

----------


## magical mike

maybe, or maybe its on of those fait situations

----------


## Carôusoul

> maybe, or maybe its on of those fait situations



What?

----------


## CoLd BlooDed

Maybe he meant 'fate(/fiction).'

----------


## JustSoSick

> Well, it makes me happy to _think that_ I seen a higher power, so I will continue being a christian..
> Not one of those closed minded christians..
> So yeah 
> I really aprciate all this guys, thanks  who moved the thread again?



Notice, your subconscious seem to redject the idea, but it seems you choose to ignore it, _wanting_ to believe. Willfully ignorant my friend. Hope you didn`t take offence.

----------


## magical mike

> Notice, your subconscious seem to redject the idea, but it seems you choose to ignore it, _wanting_ to believe. Willfully ignorant my friend. Hope you didn`t take offence.



I dont take offense. I know what you mean.
But I like felling like this anyways.
Gives me something to look up to.

----------


## JustSoSick

> I dont take offense. I know what you mean.
> But I like felling like this anyways.
> Gives me something to look up to.



Life and the universe is a mystery, to waste your time on such childish set of beliefs I think is an insult to our intelligence. Hopefully you will grow out of it. If it makes you feel good, go ahead try to convince yourself it`s real, but I`m asking you this: Is it better to believe in a fantasy, when reality is so amazing?

----------


## Original Poster

I think this film can provide a lot of insight on how such group hallucinations can be induced:

http://www.guba.com/watch/3000116108

----------


## Serkat

Can we make you guys atheists? I'm reading all this and I feel terrible thinking about the human potential being wasted here.

----------


## magical mike

yeah the church thing I went to. It now reminds me of a Big comedy hypnosis show. but without the comedy.
(I have gotten alot into hypnosis)..
I just dont know.

----------


## Jeff777

> Can we make you guys atheists? I'm reading all this and I feel terrible thinking about the human potential being wasted here.



To each his own.  While I may not buy into the mainstream religious dogmas.  I do believe that there is something "more" out there.  That is what prevents me from being an atheist.

----------


## Carôusoul

> I do believe that there is something "more" out there.



What an odd concept.

----------


## Jeff777

> What an odd concept.



Yes...I agree.  It's quite "odd" to be open to the possibility that some kind of intelligent architect constructed the dynamic human consciousness and life itself.  How silly is that right?   ::roll::

----------


## drewmandan

Mike, for the sake of your soul, please watch these from start to finish. You will find this extremely difficult and painful, but it's always painful removing years of crap from our minds. If you persevere and watch these, you will be rewarded with the light of truth, and the comfort of knowing you've dodged the bullet of a life of shame and misery, which you would most certainly suffer otherwise.

Part 1
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhn8QKyu00I

Part 2
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=_rfBi5oyfR8

Part 3
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ReAvTGpfn3U

----------


## Carôusoul

> Yes...I agree.  It's quite "odd" to be open to the possibility that some kind of intelligent architect constructed the dynamic human consciousness and life itself.  How silly is that right?



Well what you just said isn't.



Just thinking _there is something more out there_ seems odd to me.


[If I was looking for *something more* I would explore in here, not out there]

----------


## Jeff777

> Well what you just said isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> Just thinking _there is something more out there_ seems odd to me.
> 
> 
> [If I was looking for *something more* I would explore in here, not out there]



Meaning if you were looking for something "more" you would look within (in the literal sense) as opposed to something outside of yourself?

----------


## Siиdяed

> Yes...I agree.  It's quite "odd" to be open to the possibility that some kind of intelligent architect constructed the dynamic human consciousness and life itself.  How silly is that right?



Seems pretty silly to me.

----------


## magical mike

> Mike, for the sake of your soul, please watch these from start to finish. You will find this extremely difficult and painful, but it's always painful removing years of crap from our minds. If you persevere and watch these, you will be rewarded with the light of truth, and the comfort of knowing you've dodged the bullet of a life of shame and misery, which you would most certainly suffer otherwise.
> 
> Part 1
> http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhn8QKyu00I
> 
> Part 2
> http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=_rfBi5oyfR8
> 
> Part 3
> http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ReAvTGpfn3U



Thanks guys.
I really kinda deep down hate to say this. But I am starting to see things right....
I dont know if I am right or if I am wrong.
the thing is.
If I am Christian I would not care if I am right or if I am wrong. I just would not care. I would go through life thinking (Or knowing) that I have a higher power.but if I think theres nothing else. then whats the point? (I am always depressed around my house, and thought about suicide a few times, the only thing that stopped me was the fact that I was not sure if I would go to hell or not.
So.. if I am wrong now. I am doomed to HELL for eternities getting butt raped my satan!!
so... I guess theres alot to ponder *derek Zoolander lol*...

Oh Jeff, I have a question (not trying to start anything or whatever, its a serious question). If pastors use hypnosis, do they know they are using hypnosis? If so, that would mean they are not Christians because if they were they would not have the thought to need to use hypnosis.
But if they are using it and they know it, then 
A. they are in it for the money (And are probably atheist and good actors?)
B. Are part of some super super super super secret brotherhood of priests that use hypnosis to pass of fake religions?
seriously. I dont know..

----------


## drewmandan

> Thanks guys.
> I really kinda deep down hate to say this. But I am starting to see things right....
> I dont know if I am right or if I am wrong.
> the thing is.
> If I am Christian I would not care if I am right or if I am wrong. I just would not care. I would go through life thinking (Or knowing) that I have a higher power.but if I think theres nothing else. then whats the point? (I am always depressed around my house, and thought about suicide a few times, the only thing that stopped me was the fact that I was not sure if I would go to hell or not.
> So.. if I am wrong now. I am doomed to HELL for eternities getting butt raped my satan!!
> so... I guess theres alot to ponder *derek Zoolander lol*...



Can't you see that Satan and hell are obvious lies to scare you? You are a beautiful, perfect human being. You have not, will not, and can not ever sin. Sin is a joke. Sin is meant to keep you in line and paying your church dues. 

You should feel depressed. Very depressed. That means you're starting to shed off the artificial, dishonest, crutch of religion. Given time, you will find yourself. But it takes time.

----------


## magical mike

> Can't you see that Satan and hell are obvious lies to scare you? You are a beautiful, perfect human being. You have not, will not, and can not ever sin. Sin is a joke. Sin is meant to keep you in line and paying your church dues. 
> 
> You should feel depressed. Very depressed. That means you're starting to shed off the artificial, dishonest, crutch of religion. Given time, you will find yourself. But it takes time.




hmm yeah time will come, but I just dont know.
What if you all are wrong?! then you will burn in hell.
Ad your right, it dose seem put in place to scare me.
geez this is wank. Life is wank..

----------


## drewmandan

> hmm yeah time will come, but I just dont know.
> What if you all are wrong?! then you will burn in hell.
> Ad your right, it dose seem put in place to scare me.
> geez this is wank. Life is wank..



You're invoking Pascal's Wager. What if you're wrong? What if God rewards free thinking and punishes the intellectually weak? What if you're wasting your life on religion, and there is no afterlife?

----------


## magical mike

Well then, if I go my life being a christian, i dont think I would be wasting my time, I dont seeanything I would be doing difrent. if I were athiest.
Maybe be a little more rude.
And life a little bit more care free. (Iam not that great of a christian as it is).
I am just going to have to think this over for a reaalll long time. I dont know.
Oh the things lucid dreaming takes me lol

----------


## DeathCell

One doesn't need to be an atheist to not be Christian btw.

----------


## drewmandan

> One doesn't need to be an atheist to not be Christian btw.



Indeed, this is another terror tactic used by the Church, and the evangelists in particular. They've probably taught this poor boy all his life that atheists are immoral child rapists, and that the only way to not be an immoral child rapist is to be <insert denomination here>. I happen to believe, even though I'm atheist, that if there is a god, it most certainly is NOT the villainous god of Christianity.

----------


## DeathCell

> Indeed, this is another terror tactic used by the Church, and the evangelists in particular. They've probably taught this poor boy all his life that atheists are immoral child rapists, and that the only way to not be an immoral child rapist is to be <insert denomination here>. I happen to believe, even though I'm atheist, that if there is a god, it most certainly is NOT the villainous god of Christianity.



Agreed.

Why would god send everyone to hell that doesn't believe Jesus Christ is their savior when people have so tainted the Bible.

----------


## magical mike

Geez I just dont know what to do. Its like I will never know what to do.
 ::shock:: 
I still am a Christian, I like being a Christian, I dont think my life wouylc change if I decided not to believe in god.
I just want to know the truth. 
beLIEve

----------


## Serkat

> Why would god send everyone to hell that doesn't believe Jesus Christ is their savior when people have so tainted the Bible.



Because the christian god is pretty much a giant douche who likes messing with people. You might as well ask why he would pass down 10 laws and include some dumbass shit about donkeys or something and not include rape or fucking children. Biggest prankster of all time.

----------


## JustSoSick

> Geez I just dont know what to do. Its like I will never know what to do.
> 
> I still am a Christian, I like being a Christian, I dont think my life wouylc change if I decided not to believe in god.
> I just want to know the truth. 
> beLIEve



Well, come on. Look at the bible. Look at the christian God. To really believe that`s what`s hiding and playing mindgames... you really believe that`s the truth?

And you can`t _know_ if there is the Christian God exists. Like some christians claim. 

You can only believe, and to really believe in the biblical God. You almost have to be stupid in my opinion. (not saying you are) It`s childish and an insult to our intelligence.

----------


## magical mike

well yeah but what if in some weirdish way the bible makes since?
Like we are not looking at the universe like we should be?

----------


## drewmandan

It looks like Mike has made up his mind. Another evangelist for life. Oh well, we got close this time. 

I feel sorry for the horrible life of confusion and shame you will live, Mike.

----------


## JustSoSick

> well yeah but what if in some weirdish way the bible makes since?
> Like we are not looking at the universe like we should be?



Please explain, I`m not quite getting what you are saying..?

I think you mean if you find in some 'symbolical' way it makes sense. It tells us to look at the universe diffrently?

In that case, I will say. If you look to find meaning in something, you probably will. But, so you would for any story. If you look at it as a message from God.

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## magical mike

Yeah you get it justsosick




> Another evangelist for life. Oh well, we got close this time.



Thanks for trying to help me, but I am not an evangelist, and I might not be fore life. I just fell like I believe in god, and jesus.




> I feel sorry for the horrible life of confusion and shame you will live, Mike.



Me, I am just going with the flow, I am not going to try and explain anything like this.
I dont think I will live a life of shame. Why would I?

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## drewmandan

> Me, I am just going with the flow, I am not going to try and explain anything like this.
> I dont think I will live a life of shame. Why would I?



Because your entire belief system is based on shame. 

As long as you're religious, you will ALWAYS be a pawn, you will ALWAYS see enemies wherever you go, and you will NEVER understand the world. You will be a primitive tribal ape, completely disconnected from his fellow man. 

Do you think any of the great minds in all of human history just "went with the flow"? Do you honestly think that religion is the answer? That somehow man has stumbled upon the ultimate truth, when we can't even answer the most basic questions about the rest of the universe? Why would you take anyone's word for it, when they tell you that you are a sinner and need to be saved? 

You only believe what you do because it was forced upon you when you were still in the crib and unable to think for yourself. If any of this BULLSHIT was fed to you now, you would laugh it out of the room. You believe in MAGIC for fucks sakes. 

I'm done.

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## JustSoSick

> Yeah you get it justsosick
> 
> Thanks for trying to help me, but I am not an evangelist, and I might not be fore life. I just fell like I believe in god, and jesus.
> 
> Me, I am just going with the flow, I am not going to try and explain anything like this.
> I dont think I will live a life of shame. Why would I?



You are acting like a sheep. Just like religous orgs need and pray on. People who cannot think for themselves. Who just 'goes with the flow'. I really hope you will grow out of this way of thinking. Don`t insult yourself.

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## magical mike

Guys yeah it kills me to say this but I really dont know if I belive any of this christian stuff.
I dont belive in magic, I am just a magician.
I see what you guys are talking about. Its just its been feed to me all these years. like you said, and its still all in my head. I should go to a hypnotherapist and see if they can erase the memorys

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## magical mike

I hope you guys dont think I am just saying this to get you all to leave me alone.
I am just kind of confused right now.

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## JustSoSick

> Guys yeah it kills me to say this but I really dont know if I belive any of this christian stuff.
> I dont belive in magic, I am just a magician.
> I see what you guys are talking about. Its just its been feed to me all these years. like you said, and its still all in my head. I should go to a hypnotherapist and see if they can erase the memorys



I understand it`s hard and probably looked down on in your social circumstances. (and your country) To not believe in the Christian God.

But, It`s no excuse to  follow the mindless flow. It`s a childish set of beliefes, no mather how you twist it. 

If you choose not to tell anyone that you really don`t believe in the christian God. I can understand that, as it`s almost taboo in the U.S? You guys have to tell me how it is, because I`m from Norway. Anyway, I hope you stand up for yourself, not in a stubborn way, but in a toughtful, skeptical way. Those set of beliefes are stupid, and you know it. Think about it.

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## drewmandan

> If you choose not to tell anyone that you really don`t believe in the christian God. I can understand that, as it`s almost taboo in the U.S?



Where he's from, Tennessee I think, the religious bigotry is pretty huge. In New York they couldn't care less. But in Tennessee, you can get locked in a basement for not partaking in the Jesus cool-aid.

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## magical mike

Yeah, but its just so hard to say that.
Again because if I do, and there really is a hell. thats were I am going.
(DAMN STUPID SCARE TACTICS!!)

EDIT




> Where he's from, Tennessee I think, the religious bigotry is pretty huge. In New York they couldn't care less. But in Tennessee, you can get locked in a basement for not partaking in the Jesus cool-aid.



Yeah my mom wears a shirt that says "God dose not belive in athiests"
I always think about how ironic that is, because "god" says in the bible that he loves everyone or something like that.
And to say that is like saying god dose not love you.
If he dose love everyone, why dont he just invite everyone to heaven? instead of sending all the "Non belivers" to hell?
Why did he even have to make a bible?
Why dint he just send all the people who kill other people to hell? and send the rest to heaven when th die.
And dang I dont know if I would even wanna live for ever lol..

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## JustSoSick

> Where he's from, Tennessee I think, the religious bigotry is pretty huge. In New York they couldn't care less. But in Tennessee, you can get locked in a basement for not partaking in the Jesus cool-aid.



Sounds pretty sick.

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## JustSoSick

> Yeah, but its just so hard to say that.
> Again because if I do, and there really is a hell. thats were I am going.
> (DAMN STUPID SCARE TACTICS!!)



Forget about hell. It`s like you say a scare tactic. If you don`t believe in the Christian God and he turns out to actually exists and be that bully he is. You would be thrown into hell anyway, because he would know you didn`t really believe him before seeing him. It`s a clever way of controling people with fear. Remove the fear and you have life.

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## JustSoSick

> Yeah, but its just so hard to say that.
> Again because if I do, and there really is a hell. thats were I am going.
> (DAMN STUPID SCARE TACTICS!!)
> 
> EDIT
> 
> Yeah my mom wears a shirt that says "God dose not belive in athiests"
> I always think about how ironic that is, because "god" says in the bible that he loves everyone or something like that.
> And to say that is like saying god dose not love you.
> ...



An even better question is, why didn`t he create us in heaven in the first place?

Why create a world that can only be worse than heaven.

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## drewmandan

> Yeah, but its just so hard to say that.
> Again because if I do, and there really is a hell. thats were I am going.
> (DAMN STUPID SCARE TACTICS!!)



THERE IS NO HELL. Holy crap, man. Some dude in a robe tells you that if you don't believe every word he says then you'll burn for all eternity. 

In ANY other situation, any other at all, if someone said that to you, you would think them full of shit. If I told you that you must worship my pet rock or your penis will fall off, would you trust that I'm telling the truth? I hope not.

There is no difference between my pet rock and Jesus and Odin and Muhammad and any other mythological creature. It's a lie backed up by threat of magical never ending torture. You should be fucking mad at these people who try to scare you, not listen to them!

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## JustSoSick

Yes, you know. Several religions use the same scare tactic. If you don`t believe in our God, Hell. You know you could be cast to the muslim hell or whatever for not believing in their God?

Think about it, why don`t you believe in Allah?
Why don`t you believe in Thor?

Then use the same skeptisism when you ask yourself: Why don`t you believe in the Christian God?

It`s based on fear, get out of it. Don`t be a sheep.

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## magical mike

> Think about it, why don`t you believe in Allah?
> Why don`t you believe in Thor?



Because I was raised in this Christian deal!
Finaly the light is shinning though.
So then what happens when we die?
It makes sence that we just die, and or mind just turns off, and nothing happens.
BUT DAMN THE FREAKING SCARE tactics.
And what happens to the adults who die far away who dont know anything about any religion at all? If god was a fair god, he would put a bible everywear.
Were did the bible even come from?

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## Carôusoul

> Were did the bible even come from?



Written by middle eastern men throughout ancient history and edited multiple times by the various church authorities.

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## JustSoSick

> Because I was raised in this Christian deal!
> Finaly the light is shinning though.
> So then what happens when we die?
> It makes sence that we just die, and or mind just turns off, and nothing happens.
> BUT DAMN THE FREAKING SCARE tactics.
> And what happens to the adults who die far away who dont know anything about any religion at all? If god was a fair god, he would put a bible everywear.
> Were did the bible even come from?



What happens when you die? Nobody knows, maybe just like before you were born. 

Man obviously wrote the bible. Good way of controling population and getting money. I`m not sure who wrote the bible, but many moderated it.

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## magical mike

Ok, I get it now.
I am not going to say I am an athiest, and I am not going to say I am a Christian. I am going to have to do alot of thinking, and researching.
I might just fade out of going to church (I dont anyways).
I dont read the bible
And I hardly pray or ask for forgiveness.
So its like I already am an athiesist. Wow saying that makes me fell weird, but whatever. its because I was raised to think so..

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## JustSoSick

> Ok, I get it now.
> I am not going to say I am an athiest, and I am not going to say I am a Christian. I am going to have to do alot of thinking, and researching.
> I might just fade out of going to church (I dont anyways).
> I dont read the bible
> And I hardly pray or ask for forgiveness.
> So its like I already am an athiesist. Wow saying that makes me fell weird, but whatever. its because I was raised to think so..



Yes, you could also call yourself an agnostic, which means 'not sure' 
I think it would be easier for you, but I would suggest (considering your mother wears a 'God does not believe in atheists' t-shirt) that you shouldn`t discuss your beliefes with your family. For relationship reasons. You never know how they will react, If you say your an atheist. If they really are fanatic about religion. She might become really upset thinking you are going to hell and constantly try to save you. So, I guess it`s best to stay undercover. I`m just giving my opinion of what I would do in your shoes. Meh, I probably wouldn`t be able to keep my mouth shut anyways :p

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## magical mike

Yeah, I am going to keep all this away from my parents, thanks for all your guys help.
I guess there is no reason to keep this thred up, I guess let it die, if anyone wants to talk to me about it, just PM me.
I fell relived.

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## Jeff777

God damnit, fucking atheists.  Don't you all have a cross burning ceremony to attend?  Oh wait...

Look mike, I'm not going to sit here and tell you there's no God and that you die and rot and that's it.  To the best of my knowledge, what happens after death has never been verified.  Research the "AWARE" studies that are being done by scientists and researchers concerning the afterlife.  Follow your own path Mike.  Following the advice and path of christians AND/OR atheists is still being a sheep.  And you're not a sheep, you're a bright individual who (like most of us) is searching for answers pertaining to our origins.  Follow what you want because it resonates with every fiber of your being as something that vibes with you - not because you were told or brought up to think or believe a certain thing.  And no I'm not talking about organized religion.  Perhaps your journey for answers will take you an entire lifetime.  I think it's better to be in a position of "I don't know" and be open to what may be than to be in a position of "I know what is and I know what isn't" which cuts you off to anything that just may possibly...be.

Bottom line: Take up your own GPS and navigate your own map of life.  You don't need anyone to program what your ending location will be.  The true joy (I find) is by trying to find that out for yourself.

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## Serkat

> Following the advice and path of christians AND/OR atheists is still being a sheep.



You also shouldn't follow the advice of people who don't believe in talking grape juice. That would make you a sheep to the dogma of non-talking-grape-juicers!

P.S. You're basically telling this guy that ignorance is a virtue. Way to go. You know, there's a difference between ignorance and independence.

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## drewmandan

Do NOT do what 'feels right'. What 'feels right' will be the indoctrination they pounded into you as a child. That's why it's called indoctrination. You need to step away from the comfortable to seek the truth. And that means temporary pain. Pain or ignorance, make your choice.

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## Jeff777

> P.S. You're basically telling this guy that ignorance is a virtue. Way to go. You know, there's a difference between ignorance and independence.



You missed my entire point.  Nowhere...within my post...did I implicitly or explicitly imply that ignorance is a virtue.  That would mean that I told him to reject everything and place a green sim-like question mark over his head for as long as he lives.  Go back and read my post.  I told him to be aware of manipulative tactics being used by religions and atheists to bash and indoctrinate their viewpoints on people.

I slugged Zhaylin pretty hard but at the end I told her that if she feels more of a person by her beliefs and that it's made her life better and has enriched the lives of those around her...then she should continue being a Jehovas Witness.  I say this because to me it's not so much about the faith/god she has but what it's done for her as a person.  I've met some really nice and sweet "do anything for you" christians and some really shitty "I know it all...you're beneath me" atheists.  Faith and beliefs aside, guess who I'd much rather invite over to dinner?  I'd rather be a happy christian (or whatever) than a depressed atheist any day of the week.  This is *not* to say every atheist is a depressed know it all...however, _most_ of my encounters with them (on and offline) have been quite comparable to that title.  Some people aren't prepared to entertain the thoughts and notions of there possibly NOT being a God.  For those that aren't...why force it?  They haven't reached a stage in their life where they can grasp such a concept...and to shove it is unnecessary bombardment.





> Do NOT do what 'feels right'. What 'feels right' will be the indoctrination they pounded into you as a child. That's why it's called indoctrination. You need to step away from the comfortable to seek the truth. And that means temporary pain. Pain or ignorance, make your choice.



Not necessarily.  I live in Mississippi...the bible belt of the America.  Christianity has always been...as you put it..."pounded" into me at an early age.  It didn't really feel right then and it doesn't feel right now.  I believe Mike is quite capable of forging his own path in life without you or anyone else trying to rip out a pre-existing map of "truth" and replacing it with your own.

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## drewmandan

> Not necessarily.  I live in Mississippi...the bible belt of the America.  Christianity has always been...as you put it..."pounded" into me at an early age.  It didn't really feel right then and it doesn't feel right now.  I believe Mike is quite capable of forging his own path in life without you or anyone else trying to rip out a pre-existing map of "truth" and replacing it with your own.



Obviously not, if he's still entertaining the notion of actually believing the religious bullshit. Remember, this isn't something he chose; it was told to him from day 1. And he still believes it on some level. How is that in any way independent thought?

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## JustSoSick

> God damnit, fucking atheists.  Don't you all have a cross burning ceremony to attend?  Oh wait...
> 
> Look mike, I'm not going to sit here and tell you there's no God and that you die and rot and that's it.  To the best of my knowledge, what happens after death has never been verified.  Research the "AWARE" studies that are being done by scientists and researchers concerning the afterlife.  Follow your own path Mike.  Following the advice and path of christians AND/OR atheists is still being a sheep.  And you're not a sheep, you're a bright individual who (like most of us) is searching for answers pertaining to our origins.  Follow what you want because it resonates with every fiber of your being as something that vibes with you - not because you were told or brought up to think or believe a certain thing.  And no I'm not talking about organized religion.  Perhaps your journey for answers will take you an entire lifetime.  I think it's better to be in a position of "I don't know" and be open to what may be than to be in a position of "I know what is and I know what isn't" which cuts you off to anything that just may possibly...be.
> 
> Bottom line: Take up your own GPS and navigate your own map of life.  You don't need anyone to program what your ending location will be.  The true joy (I find) is by trying to find that out for yourself.



Have you payed attention? I didn`t tell him that he shouldn`t believe in a deity or anything else. I told him to get out of religion. I wanted him to start thinking, that was my whole point.

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## Jeff777

> Have you payed attention? I didn`t tell him that he shouldn`t believe in a deity or anything else. I told him to get out of religion. I wanted him to start thinking, that was my whole point.



Then obviously I wasn't addressing you, now was I?

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## JustSoSick

> Then obviously I wasn't addressing you, now was I?



I don`t know, I`m asking you?

Since it was mostly me and Drew posting who else were you reffering to when you say 'atheists'?

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