# Sleep and Dreams > Research >  >  Published in Nature Neuroscience: 77% induction rate with electrodes on the scalp at 40 Hertz

## IAmCoder

This was published in Nature Neuroscience today: lucid dreams were induced 77% of the time when electrodes placed on the scalp stimulate the frontal cortex at 40 Hertz two minutes after entering a dream.

Check out the latest research at the J.W. Goethe-University Frankfurt: Brain Zaps Can Trigger Lucid Dreams | LiveScience!

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## NyxCC

Thanks for sharing! It's quite interesting that lucid dreaming is associated with an increase in gamma brain waves - the very same brainwaves that experienced meditators tend to produce in abundance during meditation as well as Non-rem sleep.  :smiley:

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## Voldmer

This is _very_ interesting! There was an earlier research effort, that proved 40 Hz showed up in lucid dreams but not in ordinary dreams, and not in deep sleep. But this is actually constructive. A 40 Hz signal can be generated via loudspeakers, and would then - upon hitting the eardrums - generate an electrical 40 Hz signal in the brain.

40 Hz is a very low frequency, as far as sound is concerned, but it is not beyond reach; most HiFi-loudspeakers can easily generate that frequency. Many headphones can too.

Very, very interesting ...

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## Nfri

Holy sh!. How can I conduct this experiment home?

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## FryingMan

We're going to get there in my lifetime, I know it.    Dreams-R-Us.     Can't wait.  It will be the end of civilization, however.     Land of the Lotus Eaters.   Larry Niven predicted something similar to this in his sci-fi novels, there they had "wireheads," people addicted to a trickle of current directly connected to the pleasure center of the brain.

Gimme!

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## dutchraptor

> This is _very_ interesting! There was an earlier research effort, that proved 40 Hz showed up in lucid dreams but not in ordinary dreams, and not in deep sleep. But this is actually constructive. A 40 Hz signal can be generated via loudspeakers, and would then - upon hitting the eardrums - generate an electrical 40 Hz signal in the brain.
> 
> 40 Hz is a very low frequency, as far as sound is concerned, but it is not beyond reach; most HiFi-loudspeakers can easily generate that frequency. Many headphones can too.
> 
> Very, very interesting ...



Unfortunately though, sound frequency is unrelated to a brain frequency. Unless the sound vibration could actively cause electrical impulses of the same hertz through the scalp into the frontal lobe (which is highly unlikely) or that binaural beats actually work (still no evidence to back them up). 
In this experiment they use a tcds device which delivers impulses throughout the brain identical to those their during lucid dreaming, but more importantly stimulates the frontal cortex. There is no evidence that the electrical impulses of converted sounds would cause a similar reaction.





> Holy sh!. How can I conduct this experiment home?



Make a tcds device along with the eeg device you were planning on obtaining.

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## Bobblehat

> It will be the end of civilization, however.



Good.

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## Voldmer

> Unfortunately though, sound frequency is unrelated to a brain frequency. Unless the sound vibration could actively cause electrical impulses of the same hertz through the scalp into the frontal lobe (which is highly unlikely) or that binaural beats actually work (still no evidence to back them up).



Binaural beats I very much doubt, since the physics doesn't really seem to support it. But sound and electricity are completely related. A loudspeaker takes an electrical signal (for example 40 Hz) and changes it into mechanical vibration. An ear takes a mechanical vibration, and changes it into an electrical signal. Although I do not know the exact process through which the ear functions, it seems to me that it would be highly unlikely if the 40 Hz mechanical vibration is not reproduced as an 40 Hz electrical signal but instead as another frequency.






> In this experiment they use a tcds device which delivers impulses throughout the brain identical to those their during lucid dreaming, but more importantly stimulates the frontal cortex. There is no evidence that the electrical impulses of converted sounds would cause a similar reaction.



That's true, and that's why it is an obvious idea for research.  :smiley:

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## dutchraptor

> Binaural beats I very much doubt, since the physics doesn't really seem to support it. But sound and electricity are completely related. A loudspeaker takes an electrical signal (for example 40 Hz) and changes it into mechanical vibration. An ear takes a mechanical vibration, and changes it into an electrical signal. Although I do not know the exact process through which the ear functions, it seems to me that it would be highly unlikely if the 40 Hz mechanical vibration is not reproduced as an 40 Hz electrical signal but instead as another frequency.
> 
> That's true, and that's why it is an obvious idea for research.



But the point is that when we talk about the electrical impulses running through the brain, we focus on how the impulse propagates throughout the entire brain, while hearing something will send it down a specific pathway reserved for analyzing sounds. 

I don't doubt that there is potential there, but what you propose is like sending the information down a hallway and hoping it will reach the right room , while a tcds device is closer akin to throwing it straight through the window you want it to be in. 

Though speculation will probably get us no where. I'd say time to try it out and experiment :smiley:

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## Voldmer

> But the point is that when we talk about the electrical impulses running through the brain, we focus on how the impulse propagates throughout the entire brain, while hearing something will send it down a specific pathway reserved for analyzing sounds. 
> 
> I don't doubt that there is potential there, but what you propose is like sending the information down a hallway and hoping it will reach the right room , while a tcds device is closer akin to throwing it straight through the window you want it to be in.



That may well be; I certainly don't know enough about the way electrical impulses travel across the brain to say much of value about that. It just seems to me, that EEG measurements can be taken anywhere on the scalp whilst still maintaining their general characteristics, and maybe a signal generated near the ears will travel enough to resonate in the right place. But this is of course speculation on my part.

But it raises another interesting possibility  ::idea:: ; a 40Hz signal generated in a HIFI-system could be taken out - in electrical form, before it reaches the loudspeakers - and applied to the scalp directly ...






> Though speculation will probably get us no where. I'd say time to try it out and experiment



Yup!  :smiley:

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## StephL

Ha!!
Phantastisch!!
And Frankfurt is not far away for me, even!
Land of the Lotus Eaters - been thinking this as well of course - even made a thread a while back on addictive potential etc. 
Another thing - what happens when you do that to an awake person??
Extremely fascinating!
This very much looks like a break-through especially for science - the activities to "decipher LDing" are boiling around here anyway - but now the test-subject scarcity might come to an end finally!
That's what holds them all back from doing their work.

 ::yddd:: 

Edit: It's a nice idea, Voldmer - but unfortuntaly it won't work.
When soundwaves enter the ear, they get first of all amplified over the membranes and bones, and then they follow the ear-snail along, till they end at the point, where exactly this frequency of sound gets detected.
Fascinating, because that is the geometric purpose of that snail (cochlea) - the further a soundwave can travel up it - the higher it's frequency is.
Once it gets detected - what happens is that a _normal nerve impulse_ gets triggered exactly there, devoid of the actual frequency, and only holding the information, _from where_ the excitation came, which corresponds to the frequency, but is not it. This impulse is then running up the auditory nerve to chime into the concert.

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## MisakaMikoto

Hopefully somebody will make in future tutorial for creating home-made lucid dreaming machine  ::chuckle:: 


Edit:

Oh wait
People might actualy start to design and sell lucid dreaming helmets like remee but they might actualy be slightly high success rate and effortless aswell
1. Wake up after 6 hours of sleep
2. Put on helmet
3. Set it to activate for 30 sec in 5 mins
4. Fall quickly asleep
5. Lucid?

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## VagalTone

This is a huge lift for EILD believers, to whom i belong !  :smiley: 
I've always thought that only through physiology interventions ( not purely mental exercises ) will humanity have access to LDing on a regular basis. 
I am not denying the importance of psychology interventions - but that job is mostly for the motivated people. Of course, EILD can lower the treshold and put more people actively believing and pursuing LDing.

Let's wait and see !

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## Bobblehat

It's very early doors, but can anyone start to give me an idea of how I might (affordably) create and experiment with a device similar to the ones used in the research without, y'know, frazzling my brain?

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## StephL

Since I know, how it is with people clicking and reading - or rather not doing that - I'll put the text from the OP's link on over:





> *Brain Zaps Can Trigger Lucid Dreams*
> 
> Lucid dreams, in which people are aware of and can control their dreams, are rare. But now scientists have found they can induce this weird state of mind in people by zapping their brains with a specific frequency of electricity.
> 
> "I never thought this would work," said study researcher Dr. John Allan Hobson, a psychiatrist and longtime sleep researcher at Harvard University. "But it looks like it does."
> 
> *The results showed that when the inexperienced dreamers were zapped with a current of 40 Hertz, 77 percent of the time these participants reported having what were described as lucid dreams.*
> 
> "They were really excited," said study researcher Ursula Voss, of J.W. Goethe-University Frankfurt, who designed the experiments. "The dream reports were short, but long enough for them to report, 'Wow, all of the sudden I knew this was a dream, while I was dreaming.'" 
> ...



A link from the above article to the paper's abstract and *several diagrams*: 
Induction of self awareness in dreams through frontal low current stimulation of gamma activity : Nature Neuroscience : Nature Publishing Group

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## Dthoughts

Thanks for posting, Steph. It's Always nice to receive your input.

Bla bla bla the consciousness talk though. I dont' care about their speculations  :tongue2: 
(especially that last line ruffled me the wrong way, in no way does this indicate Gamma causing consciousness. )
They just edited that in to make the article appeal more interesting. Thus spreading unfounded rumors. ::nono:: 
But the relationship is interesting. 

I think if we can somehow reach the frontal cortex with another medium. Eye-flashes perhaps. Brief resonance of 40hz might be achieved

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## dutchraptor

> It's very early doors, but can anyone start to give me an idea of how I might (affordably) create and experiment with a device similar to the ones used in the research without, y'know, frazzling my brain?



The project would run into the hundreds of euro's/dollars. 

A TCDS device and EEG device would be required, and you would have to link them and make them co-operate, which probably means getting an extension to the EEG device 
The TCDS device would probably cost around 80-200 dollars depending on where you get it, and the quality of the components. I believe there is a nice self development kit flying around but it would have to modified to get this to work. 
The eeg will cost a similar amount depending on whether you make it or not. 

Making an EEG device is pretty easy when you look into it, there sites like these Building an EEG at home

Go to the /r/TCDS subreddit to learn about making a TCDS device, those guys know a fair deal about it. 

And then you would need to have a software (or hardware, but this would again run up the costs. Perhaps by using arduino) interface between the eeg and TCDS so that the tcds device is pulsed a few times each time you enter a dream after perhaps three hours of sleep. So you would need to know/learn a programming language, or get a redditor etc to write it for you. 

All in all not a very easy project, you need to acquire a good understanding of electronics, the programming language at play, what part of the brain you are trying to activate (DLPFC, or just the frontal cortex in general etc) and you need the money to buy high quality equipment you know will not fail. 

A single milliamp over 1.5-2.0 millamps, and you are putting yourself at risk for brain damage. The main risk lies in that you will be asleep, you can't actively change anything on the device or check it's status. 

Just to be sure, you'd want multiple redundancy checks, and a competent program running.

*EDIT: Actually it seems that allan hobson and his crew used a tACS device (alternating current, not direct current TCDS). So you will probably run into difficulties there, if I understand correctly they use this device because it can modulate brain frequencies in the frontal lobes better than a tcds device. I'm not sure about this but a tcds device might require that brain region is already lit up, while a tACS or TMS device can light up a region regardless.

As demonstrated, my knowledge on the subject is actually quite shallow. That's surprising considering how long I've been following it, it takes a very significant amount of time and interest to get anywhere.
*

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## Bobblehat

Thanks for your detailed response, dutchraptor. Would I be able to get it off the ground? Probably not, but I'll make a fun project of researching the terms you speak of and go from there.

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## dutchraptor

> Thanks for your detailed response, dutchraptor. Would I be able to get it off the ground? Probably not, but I'll make a fun project of researching the terms you speak of and go from there.



You would, if you have the time. 
Mot of the redditors over at /r/tcds built there own device, or are using one of the few commercially available ones, they learned from the ground up (though most of them seem not to bothered with safety) 

It's a brilliant project to work up to over a year or two, and if you got it working the pay off would be unreal. 

Besides that, both EEG devices and TCDS devices are massively interesting anyways on their own. So it's always a cool investment.

Good luck  :smiley:

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## Xanous

This is great stuff. Id love to see a device worth a damn on the market. I'm always looking for easier ways to get lucid!

Future conversation:
"Kids when I was your age we didn't have all these fancy dreaming devices to get lucid. We had to actually work hard for it."

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## BatteryCharged

> But it raises another interesting possibility ; a 40Hz signal generated in a HIFI-system could be taken out - in electrical form, before it reaches the loudspeakers - and applied to the scalp directly ...



Not sure it would be that easy either. I'm assuming the volts/amps are quite different. Not sure you'd want to zap yourself while dreaming. =O

Also, you'd have to set up some contraption to automatically shock you when sleeping or have someone hover over you. It says they waited until the person was dreaming.

I'd love to participate in this experiment.

Imagine an XBox with an attachment that induces lucidity like a WII!  Along with packaged dreams!

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## Matt1

Already LDing headbands are on the market that can detect REM sleep. All that needs to be done is replace the mechanism for flashing lights with on that applies the 40 Hz directly to stimulate the critical thinking part of the brain. If someone were to find a way to mass produce such a device, and come up with a good way to market it to the masses and not just current LDers, I think that person could make an incredible amount of money. Also such a device would make all current inconsistent and unreliable LD techniques obsolete. An immersive virtual reality world/playground for hours a night every night! Who wouldn't pay good money for that? Someone develop this and use Kickstarter or something to get it funded.

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## Voldmer

> Not sure it would be that easy either. I'm assuming the volts/amps are quite different. Not sure you'd want to zap yourself while dreaming. =O



The voltage from HIFI-equipment is very low, and bodily resistance is extremely high, so you couldn't "zap" yourself for the life of it. Probably the voltage is too low to work for our purposes, but then the voltage of the headphone-outlet can be varied to some extent.

We need to know the exact voltage used in the experiment ...

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## Voldmer

> It's a nice idea, Voldmer - but unfortuntaly it won't work.
> When soundwaves enter the ear, they get first of all amplified over the membranes and bones, and then they follow the ear-snail along, till they end at the point, where exactly this frequency of sound gets detected.
> Fascinating, because that is the geometric purpose of that snail (cochlea) - the further a soundwave can travel up it - the higher it's frequency is.
> Once it gets detected - what happens is that a _normal nerve impulse_ gets triggered exactly there, devoid of the actual frequency, and only holding the information, _from where_ the excitation came, which corresponds to the frequency, but is not it. This impulse is then running up the auditory nerve to chime into the concert.



As mentioned I don't know the exact details of how electrical signals move across the brain, but if a nerve carries an electrical signal, then this signal has a frequency. If that frequency, in a nerve connected to hearing, actually differs from the frequency of the vibration, then this implies a transducing metod of greater complexity than needed (a loudspeaker is really very simple). Maybe the human body is actually like that (this would mean that we humans have actually beaten evolution at something  :smiley:  ), but do we really know what the frequency-spectrum of the signals in the acoustic nerves are like?

However, if brainwave entrainment is a reality, then there must be some way to translate the acoustic signal to an electrical one. The Monroe Institute has been preaching for thirty years that this is indeed possible.

Anyone with an EEG-device should be able to test this easily. Put a 40Hz signal on the stereo, and measure then EEG at the same time. If the 40Hz signal shows up in the EEG, then it would be a strong indication that entrainment took place. Next, try with other frequencies.

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## Bobblehat

Okay, I'm thinking potential short cuts, and I'll admit the full extent of my knowledge on the subject only goes as far as  "It needs to produce 40hz". I looked up this article on TENS and spotted the parts ">50 hz" and "<10hz" and wonder to myself if a TENS unit could be a little tweaking away from being able to produce "the magic figure" 40hz?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcu...ve_stimulation

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## dutchraptor

> Okay, I'm thinking potential short cuts, and I'll admit the full extent of my knowledge on the subject only goes as far as  "It needs to produce 40hz". I looked up this article on TENS and spotted the parts ">50 hz" and "<10hz" and wonder to myself if a TENS unit could be a little tweaking away from being able to produce "the magic figure" 40hz?
> 
> Transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Nope, unfortunately you should never use a TENS unit near the head. They aren't meant for the brain and would never be used there, it's a frequent question though.





> The voltage from HIFI-equipment is very low, and bodily resistance is extremely high, so you couldn't "zap" yourself for the life of it. Probably the voltage is too low to work for our purposes, but then the voltage of the headphone-outlet can be varied to some extent.
> 
> We need to know the exact voltage used in the experiment ...



The voltage that I've seen used so far is roughly between a 5v line to 9v battery, The amperage is less than 2 milliamps and the actual sponges, electrodes are 83microamps/cm^2. The combined ohms of both electrodes in this experiment were kept under 5. 

The problem with a HIFI system is that it will require too many modifications. The input is 240/120v which is far too dangerous, the voltage is lowered, but amperage increased to drive the speaker cone. On it's own the amp in he speaker would probably have a line rate at well over a single amp, which is already a factor of 1000 bigger than what we need. 
It will also not have any redundancy checks, nor is it capable of modulating the pulse, or activating when you hit rem. 

The work involved makes it far less economical than you would think, you're better building from the ground up will components you know will work.

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## Voldmer

> The voltage that I've seen used so far is roughly between a 5v line to 9v battery, The amperage is less than 2 milliamps and the actual sponges, electrodes are 83microamps/cm^2. The combined ohms of both electrodes in this experiment were kept under 5. 
> 
> The problem with a HIFI system is that it will require too many modifications. The input is 240/120v which is far too dangerous, the voltage is lowered, but amperage increased to drive the speaker cone. On it's own the amp in he speaker would probably have a line rate at well over a single amp, which is already a factor of 1000 bigger than what we need. 
> It will also not have any redundancy checks, nor is it capable of modulating the pulse, or activating when you hit rem. 
> 
> The work involved makes it far less economical than you would think, you're better building from the ground up will components you know will work.



I agree that more is needed than the HIFI-amplifier on its own; you also need a signal source to generate the 40 Hz signal. If you want to trigger it at REM-time, then you need equipment to register this too.

But the issue of danger due to the amplifier-input being 240 V is not really relevant, unless your equipment is seriously malfunctioning. Also, the current is not relevant because it refers to loudspeakers of very low electrical resistance (typically only 4-8 Ohm). The human body has gigantic electrical resistance compared to this (dry skin lies between 1000 and 100,000 Ohm), so the current through the human body would be insignificant with such low voltage.

Try plugging a cable into a signal line output (e.g. output to tape-recorder/monitor/equalizer/whatever) from an ordinary amplifier, and then short circuit the signal at the other end with your fingers. It will most likely be so subtle as to not register at all. Same result if you short circuit loudspeaker cables.

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## dutchraptor

> I agree that more is needed than the HIFI-amplifier on its own; you also need a signal source to generate the 40 Hz signal. If you want to trigger it at REM-time, then you need equipment to register this too.
> 
> But the issue of danger due to the amplifier-input being 240 V is not really relevant, unless your equipment is seriously malfunctioning. Also, the current is not relevant because it refers to loudspeakers of very low electrical resistance (typically only 4-8 Ohm). The human body has gigantic electrical resistance compared to this (dry skin lies between 1000 and 100,000 Ohm), so the current through the human body would be insignificant with such low voltage.
> 
> Try plugging a cable into a signal line output (e.g. output to tape-recorder/monitor/equalizer/whatever) from an ordinary amplifier, and then short circuit the signal at the other end with your fingers. It will most likely be so subtle as to not register at all. Same result if you short circuit loudspeaker cables.



The danger is entirely relevant, unless you feel like running the risk of killing yourself. It's just idiotic to use a 240v line if you could use a 9v battery. It's likely nothing will happen, but if it does you are 99% a goner. 

Next important point is that electrodes in tcds are never, absolutely never used dry. The impedance of skin is much lower when wet or gelled, we need to use a saline solution or gel for he reason that we want to lower he impedance (which is closer to 300-1000 ohm).

I see absolutely no reason why you would take this path, it's much easier to use a lower amperage system with gel electrodes, than trying to modify the existing method and electronics of some HIFI system.

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## Voldmer

> The danger is entirely relevant, unless you feel like running the risk of killing yourself. It's just idiotic to use a 240v line if you could use a 9v battery. It's likely nothing will happen, but if it does you are 99% a goner. 
> 
> Next important point is that electrodes in tcds are never, absolutely never used dry. The impedance of skin is much lower when wet or gelled, we need to use a saline solution or gel for he reason that we want to lower he impedance (which is closer to 300-1000 ohm).



I think you are being overly cautious; there is a rectifier in the amplifier, and this downscales the voltage by two orders of magnitude. Normally these things work just fine. If they didn't, the equipment would be fried rapidly. But okay, being cautious is certainly a virtue.

If the skin must be moist, then this implies the need to actually lower the resistance for enough current to be generated. This makes perfect sense, because it allows using a low voltage. Not a problem, except for the inconvenience of having to apply some gel to the skin (another possibility would be to increase the voltage, so that the large resistance of the dry skin could be overcome).






> I see absolutely no reason why you would take this path, it's much easier to use a lower amperage system with gel electrodes, than trying to modify the existing method and electronics of some HIFI system.



I would probably not take that path either; I'm still interested in sound-induced brain-entrainment.

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## StephL

Ha - found it!!
Took a while, since the title of this thread didn't exactly help - but there are loads of information in it around TCDS:
http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-sign...am-recall.html

Our thread's study here didn't use the classical TCDS configuration, though, but something with alternating currents - "tACS". 
Don't know, if you can find something about specifically that in the above linked thread, too - here a quote:






> Did I recommend anything? I merely stated my own observations and if anyone wants to try it it is his own choice.
> 
> Scientists raising concerns, but of course they will. Some will be genuine concerns about people and some will be also genuine concerns but for other reasons like charging lots of money for the sessions at the clinic. By the way you can find a lot about doctors already using it. There was recently a paper issued asking government for taking control of the matter. Anyway you can find out scientific papers what is required and how to build it and there is no magic or any special knowledge required to do it. This is the whole reason why it is not in the spotlight, big medical companies can not make enough money from it. It is just to simple and cheap to make and does not cost much to use it just the price of the batteries.
> 
> But if you so believe in their good will and honesty about their concerns, what does it tell you when decades ago first time was proposed to use amalgam fillings for teeth and at first it was by many of them regarded as an absurd, after all it contains a lot of mercury, the most poisonous substance to human body. But never the less it was introduced and used on us for many years and still is. This is just one example.
> 
> *You want some information here it is, first some articles:*
> The Crimson White | Direct stimulation may increase cognitive performance
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/ma....html?hpw&_r=0
> ...




Aand - then there is this thread: http://www.dreamviews.com/research/1...rem-sleep.html with loads of wisdom - incl. IAmCoder's.
I guess, he is the best candidate for building the first gamma-voodoo* machine among us forumites!



*reference to a song ..

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## Highlander

Re: Binaural beats.

Binaural beats - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wikipedia refers to the 'cocktail effect' in beat frequencies generally anything over 30 Hz. However in the same article there is reference to a 40 Hz binaural beat frequency.





> Perceived human hearing is limited to the range of frequencies from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz, but the frequencies of human brain waves are below about 40 Hz. To account for this lack of perception, binaural beat frequencies are used. *Beat frequencies of 40 Hz have been produced in the brain with binaural sound* and measured experimentally.[28]



Schwarz DW, Taylor P (2005). "Human auditory steady state responses to binaural and monaural beats". Clinical Neurophysiology 116 (3): 65868. 

Elsevier

Ryan Hurd also refers to this in his dreamstudies portal back in early 2011.
Lucid dreaming Brain Entrainment with Binaural Beats | dream studies portal

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## jonesn

Very interesting study indeed. However, I wouldn't expect to see a commercial device for tACS-induced lucid dreaming any time soon.

You can't purchase a tACS, tDCS, or TMS system now as a consumer, at least not here in the states, without being a licensed health professional. The applications and results researchers are finding now with TMS are outstanding but it really should be stressed that many of the same researchers are very weary of testing TMS on humans to extreme limits.

I personally would never trust the average person not to go overboard with a TMS (tACS or tDCS) system and zap themselves all day long with no clear idea what they were doing. In order for researchers to test the extreme limits (using TMS for hours each day) they will have to progressively make studies more ambitious and carefully review each new work so that the boundaries of ethics are not crossed.

This specific study by Voss & Hobson used tACS because it's more accurate to target specific lobes of the PFC plus they found tDCS to be too loud during sleep and it produces a tactile sensation on the skin when used (especially up near Gamma, 25-40 HZ). Their stimuli consisted of only a 1-epoch (30 second) zap to the front lobes and they still had to get approval from an ethics board to conduct this study.

If someone in the LD community wants to try this, please be very cautious and do yourself a favor by following the exact same protocols done in this study.

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## StephL

Thank you for that post, jonesn - great explanations for one - and I should have put out a warning as well - the above thread I linked up also has a discussion on the dangers - thanks Highlander et al for that! 

*So please - don't fry your most precious possession!!*   ::wink:: 

there is plenty evidence for binaural beats having effects in the sense of sound frequency derived brain-wave entrainment!
And that is exactly what we are after.
The assorted health and benefit claims are not quite that well demonstrated, though.

Many lucid dreaming experiments have - wrongly it looks like - used 10 Hz alpha wave entrainment instead of 40 Hz.
So maybe the potential is not yet really explored!





> Some have attempted to use them to induce lucid dreaming, but the role of alpha-wave activity in lucid dreaming is subject to ongoing research.[35][36][37]



It's not the actual external sound frequency, that gets entrained - the brain produces it.
It works by giving one ear a frequency of say 400 Hz and the other one a frequency of 410 Hz, and then the _difference_ in frequencies, only in a small range, becomes entrained and EEG will show a tendency to 10 Hz. It follows a mechanism for sound location - and it seems to work for 40 Hz gamma waves, too:





> Beat frequencies of 40 Hz have been produced in the brain with binaural sound and measured experimentally.[28]



Despite something called disco-effect kicking in at 30 Hz, making it* problematic*:





> The brain produces a phenomenon resulting in low-frequency pulsations in the amplitude and sound localization of a perceived sound when two tones at slightly different frequencies are presented separately, one to each of a subject's ears, using stereo headphones. A beating tone will be perceived, as if the two tones mixed naturally, out of the brain. The frequencies of the tones must be below 1,000 hertz for the beating to be noticeable.[3] *The difference between the two frequencies must be small (less than or equal to 30 Hz) for the effect to occur*; otherwise, the two tones will be heard separately, and no beat will be perceived.







> For frequency differences between the ear *signals of above 30 Hz, the cocktail party effect begins to work*, and the auditory system is able to analyze the presented ear signals in terms of two different sound sources at two different locations, and two distinct signals are perceived.



But anyway - very interesting, actually - definitively worth a try. My husband has experimented with binaural beats, but stopped doing it - got to ask him for details. 
But I doubt, that you can achieve enough of an effect in the frontal lobes to cause a comparably strong response as by doing it directly with electrodes. Esp. since binaural beats work best between 10 and 30 Hz - and with it comes the problem of having to hear beats, while supposed to keep sleeping. 
But who knows? The OP's scientists also said, that they didn't expect their thing to actually work.
Maybe one can get them gammas even less complicatedly and completely safe! 

I'll copy most of the Wikipedia article on over, for who might be interested:


*Spoiler* for _binaural beats from Wikipedia_: 




*Binaural Beats*

Binaural beats, or binaural tones, are auditory processing artifacts, or apparent sounds, caused by specific physical stimuli. This effect was discovered in 1839 by Heinrich Wilhelm Dove and earned greater public awareness in the late 20th century based on claims coming from the alternative medicine community that binaural beats could help induce relaxation, meditation, creativity and other desirable mental states. The effect on the brainwaves depends on the difference in frequencies of each tone: for example, if 300 Hz was played in one ear and 310 in the other, then the binaural beat would have a frequency of 10 Hz.[1][2]

The brain produces a phenomenon resulting in low-frequency pulsations in the amplitude and sound localization of a perceived sound when two tones at slightly different frequencies are presented separately, one to each of a subject's ears, using stereo headphones. A beating tone will be perceived, as if the two tones mixed naturally, out of the brain. The frequencies of the tones must be below 1,000 hertz for the beating to be noticeable.[3] The difference between the two frequencies must be small (less than or equal to 30 Hz) for the effect to occur; otherwise, the two tones will be heard separately, and no beat will be perceived.

Binaural beats are of interest to neurophysiologists investigating the sense of hearing.[4][5][6][7]

Binaural beats reportedly influence the brain in more subtle ways through the entrainment of brainwaves[3][8][9] and provide other health benefits such as control over pain.[10][11]

*Acoustical background*

For sound localization, the human auditory system analyses interaural time differences between both ears inside small frequency ranges, called critical bands. For frequencies below 1000 to 1500 Hz interaural time differences are evaluated from interaural phase differences between both ear signals.[12] The perceived sound is also evaluated from the analysis of both ear signals.

If different pure tones (sinusoidal signals with different frequencies) are presented to each ear, there will be time-dependent phase and time differences between both ears (see figure). The perceived sound depends on the frequency difference between both ear signals:

If the frequency difference between the ear signals is lower than a few hertz, the auditory system can follow the changes in the interaural time differences. As a result, an auditory event is perceived, which is moving through the head. The perceived direction corresponds to the instantaneous interaural time difference.
For slightly bigger frequency differences between the ear signals (more than 10 Hz), the auditory system can no longer follow the changes in the interaural parameters. A diffuse auditory event appears. The sound corresponds to an overlay of both ear signals, which means amplitude and loudness are changing rapidly (see figure in the chapter above).
For frequency differences between the ear signals of above 30 Hz, the cocktail party effect begins to work, and the auditory system is able to analyze the presented ear signals in terms of two different sound sources at two different locations, and two distinct signals are perceived.
Binaural beats can also be experienced without headphones; they appear when playing two different pure tones through loudspeakers. The sound perceived is quite similar: with auditory events that move through the room, at low-frequency differences, and diffuse sound at slightly bigger frequency differences. At bigger frequency differences, apparent localized sound sources appear.[13] However, it is more effective to use headphones than loudspeakers.

*Unverified claims*

There have been a number of claims regarding binaural beats, among them that they may simulate the effect of recreational drugs, help people memorize and learn, stop smoking, help dieting, tackle erectile dysfunction and improve athletic performance.

An uncontrolled pilot study of eight individuals indicated that binaural beats may have a relaxing effect. In absence of positive evidence for a specific effect, claimed effects may be attributed to the power of suggestion (the placebo effect).[15]

In a blind study (eight participants) of binaural beats' effects on meditation, 7 Hz frequencies were found to enhance meditative focus while 15 Hz frequencies harmed it.[16]

A further study conducted at Goldsmiths, University of London found that there was no main effect for the use of binaural beats in order to alleviate cold pain. Musicians, however, demonstrated themselves to be better at coping with the pain, suggesting that it may be the sound itself which is a distracting factor as opposed to any brainwave influence.[11]

*Physiology*

The sensation of binaural beats is believed to originate in the superior olivary nucleus, a part of the brain stem. They appear to be related to the brain's ability to locate the sources of sounds in three dimensions and to track moving sounds, which also involves inferior colliculus (IC) neurons.[17] Regarding entrainment, the study of rhythmicity provides insights into the understanding of temporal information processing in the human brain. Auditory rhythms rapidly entrain motor responses into stable steady synchronization states below and above conscious perception thresholds. Activated regions include primary sensorimotor and cingulate areas, bilateral opercular premotor areas, bilateral SII, ventral prefrontal cortex, and, subcortically, anterior insula, putamen, and thalamus. Within the cerebellum, vermal regions and anterior hemispheres ipsilateral to the movement became significantly activated. Tracking temporal modulations additionally activated predominantly right prefrontal, anterior cingulate, and intraparietal regions as well as posterior cerebellar hemispheres.[18] A study of aphasic subjects who had a severe stroke versus normal subjects showed that the aphasic subject could not hear the binaural beats, whereas the normal subjects could.[19]

*Hypothetical effects on brain function*

Overview
Binaural beats may influence functions of the brain in ways besides those related to hearing. This phenomenon is called "frequency following response". The concept is that if one receives a stimulus with a frequency in the range of brain waves, the predominant brainwave frequency is said to be likely to move towards the frequency of the stimulus (a process called entrainment).[20] In addition, binaural beats have been credibly documented to relate to both spatial perception and stereo auditory recognition, and, according to the frequency following response, activation of various sites in the brain.[21][22][23][24][25]

The stimulus does not have to be aural; it can also be visual[26] or a combination of aural and visual[27] (one such example would be Dreamachine).

Perceived human hearing is limited to the range of frequencies from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz, but the frequencies of human brain waves are below about 40 Hz. To account for this lack of perception, binaural beat frequencies are used. Beat frequencies of 40 Hz have been produced in the brain with binaural sound and measured experimentally.[28]

When the perceived beat frequency corresponds to the delta, theta, alpha, beta, or gamma range of brainwave frequencies, the brainwaves entrain to or move towards the beat frequency.[29] For example, if a 315 Hz sine wave is played into the right ear and a 325 Hz one into the left ear, the brain is entrained towards the beat frequency 10 Hz, in the alpha range. Since alpha range is associated with relaxation, this has a relaxing effect, or if in the theta range, more alertness. An experiment with binaural sound stimulation using beat frequencies in the beta range on some participants and the delta/theta range on other participants found better vigilance performance and mood in those on the awake alert state of beta-range stimulation.[30][31]

Binaural beat stimulation has been used fairly extensively in attempts to induce a variety of states of consciousness, and there has been some work done in regards to the effects of these stimuli on relaxation, focus, attention, and states of consciousness.[8] Studies have shown that with repeated training to distinguish close frequency sounds that a plastic reorganization of the brain occurs for the trained frequencies[32] and is capable of asymmetric hemispheric balancing.[33]

*Brain waves*

Frequency range	Name	Usually associated with:
> 40 Hz	Gamma waves	Higher mental activity, including perception, problem solving, fear, and consciousness
13–39 Hz	Beta waves	Active, busy or anxious thinking and active concentration, arousal, cognition, and or paranoia
7–13 Hz	Alpha waves	Relaxation (while awake), pre-sleep and pre-wake drowsiness, REM sleep, Dreams
8–12 Hz	Mu waves	Mu rhythm, Sensorimotor rhythm
4–7 Hz	Theta waves	Deep meditation/relaxation, NREM sleep
< 4 Hz	Delta waves	Deep dreamless sleep, loss of body awareness
(The precise boundaries between ranges vary among definitions, and there is no universally accepted standard.)

The dominant frequency determines one's current state. For example, if in someone's brain, alpha waves are dominating, they are in the alpha state (this happens when one is relaxed but awake). However, other frequencies will also be present, albeit with smaller amplitudes.

The brain entraining is more effective if the entraining frequency is close to the user's starting dominant frequency. Therefore, it is suggested to start with a frequency near to one's current dominant frequency (likely to be about 20 Hz or less for a waking person) and then slowly decrease or increase it towards the desired frequency.

Some people find pure sine waves unpleasant, so a pink noise or another background (e.g., natural sounds such as river noises) can also be mixed with them. In addition to that, as long as the beat is audible, increasing the volume should not necessarily improve the effectiveness; therefore, using a low volume is usually suggested. One theory is to reduce the volume so low that the beating should not even be clearly audible, but this does not seem to be the case.

*Other uses*

In addition to lowering the brain frequency to relax the listener, there are other controversial, alleged effects of binaural beats. For example, that by using specific frequencies, an individual can stimulate certain glands to produce desired hormones. Beta-endorphin has been modulated in studies using alpha-theta brain wave training,[34] and dopamine with binaural beats.[1] Some have attempted to use them to induce lucid dreaming, but the role of alpha-wave activity in lucid dreaming is subject to ongoing research.[35][36][37]

Alpha-theta brainwave training has also been used successfully for the treatment of addictions.[34][38][39]

It has been used for the recovery of repressed memories, but as with other techniques, this can lead to false memories.[40]

An uncontrolled pilot study of delta binaural beat technology over 60 days has shown positive effects on self-reported psychologic measures, especially anxiety. However only 15 people participated in this study, therefore, providing insignificant results. Of the few people that participated, there was reported a significant decrease in trait anxiety, an increase in quality of life, and a decrease in insulin-like growth factor-1 and dopamine,[1] and it has been shown to decrease mild anxiety.[41] Further research is warranted to explore the effects on anxiety using a larger, randomized and controlled trial. A randomised, controlled study concluded that binaural beat audio could lessen hospital acute pre-operative anxiety.[42]

Another claimed effect for sound-induced brain synchronization is enhanced learning ability. It was proposed in the 1970s that induced alpha brain waves enabled students to assimilate more information with greater long-term retention.[43] In more recent times has come more understanding of the role of theta brain waves in behavioural learning.[44] The presence of theta patterns in the brain has been associated with increased receptivity for learning and decreased filtering by the left hemisphere.[43][45][46] Based on the association between theta activity (4–7 Hz) and working memory performance, biofeedback training suggests that normal healthy individuals can learn to increase a specific component of their EEG activity, and that such enhanced activity may facilitate a working memory task and to a lesser extent focused attention.[47]

A small media controversy was spawned in 2010 by an Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics official comparing binaural beats to illegal narcotics and warning that interest in websites offering binaural beats could lead to drug use.

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## Matt1

I just don't see with binaural beats how such a signal would get from the part of the brain that processes hearing over to the prefrontal cortex. Using the tACS seems much more direct and likely to work.

Also it may not have to be firing the signal all the time. Perhaps just for 30 seconds a couple minutes after entering REM like in the experiment, if you want to play it safe. Ideally though it would fire more so that lucidity stays high.

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## StephL

Yeah - huge post, and my fazit is that I don't think, binaural beats would work comparatively.

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## BatteryCharged

I don't know how you could use sound to duplicate electrical signals. It would be like trying to change the signal on your cable line using vibrations of the cable. Sure the ear is a transducer, but it's like scratching your toe to sooth your stomach. 

As for speaker wires being safe to stick to your head, you're talking several watts of power.  That could be very unpleasant.

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## Voldmer

> I don't know how you could use sound to duplicate electrical signals. It would be like trying to change the signal on your cable line using vibrations of the cable. Sure the ear is a transducer, but it's like scratching your toe to sooth your stomach.



This is a bit unfair; if you bat an eye, it generates a magnetic field that can induce electrical currents several feet away. Vibrating an eardrum would have a similar effect (although smaller, because an eardrum is smaller than an eyelid). And who knows how well the brain picks up on such magnetic fields? It is certainly not obvious that the brain would not register it at all.






> As for speaker wires being safe to stick to your head, you're talking several watts of power.  That could be very unpleasant.



This isn't really meaningful; the power depends on the electrical resistance, and the number you are qouting refers to loudspeakers of very low resistance. The human body has much higher resistance, so the power would be much smaller (Power equals voltage squared, divided by resistance).

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## StephL

Don't forget you need to lower the body's resistance to get effects with electrodes - they are all applied with contact gel, esp. for that purpose.
Anyway - probably it is the easiest way to first test binaural beats, if you have a REM detector and somebody/some mechanism to start them off after 2 min. REM.
And if it doesn't produce enough of an effect - like I suspect - build a tACS - shouldn't be beyond you, Voldmer to do it from scratch.
I'd really keep my fingers of your hifi equipment, if I were you - just listen to some beautiful dreamy music with it instead!  ::wink::

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## Voldmer

> Don't forget you need to lower the body's resistance to get effects with electrodes - they are all applied with contact gel, esp. for that purpose.
> Anyway - probably it is the easiest way to first test binaural beats, if you have a REM detector and somebody/some mechanism to start them off after 2 min. REM.
> And if it doesn't produce enough of an effect - like I suspect - build a tACS - shouldn't be beyond you, Voldmer to do it from scratch.



Thanks for the vote of confidence!  :smiley:  But I'm probably not the best person for constructing such a system, being much more of an algorithm-designer than a hands-on electrical engineer.






> I'd really keep my fingers of your hifi equipment, if I were you - just listen to some beautiful dreamy music with it instead!



That is of course always a good way to use it.  :smiley: 

Incidentally, I should probably mention the binaural beat albums of Dr. Jeffrey Thompson. Nice music with various binaural tracks layered onto them.

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## Bobblehat

This is interesting. Relevant?

BBC News - Depression treatment technique uses new helmet therapy

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## StephL

Very interesting!!
It means, the scientific community goes about extended experiments with these techniques - can only be a good thing!

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## Zthread

> This was published in Nature Neuroscience today: lucid dreams were induced 77% of the time when electrodes placed on the scalp stimulate the frontal cortex at 40 Hertz two minutes after entering a dream.
> 
> Check out the latest research at the J.W. Goethe-University Frankfurt: Brain Zaps Can Trigger Lucid Dreams | LiveScience!



This paper is the biggest LD news in many years! At least assuming other researchers will be able to reproduce the results. It's fun to think of what this would look like as an LD induction product. It would be best if it was a comfortable, self-contained unit you'd wear on your head. Wouldn't want to mess around with wires or cables of any kind. Would be nice to have a Bluetooth connection, so you could program it with a computer or smartphone app. It would have electrodes to monitor your sleep state and electrodes to administer the tACS signal to your scalp at the appropriate time/duration following detection of REM sleep. You'd probably be able to select the frequency and amplitude of the tACS signal. Or maybe have multiple frequencies. OTOH, just having 40 Hz should be fine. You might also be able to vary other parameters, such as the delay after detecting REM sleep, duration of the scalp stimulation, etc. Might also be interesting to have a mode where it stimulates your scalp during NREM sleep. Wonder if that could stimulate REM and/or lucidity.

One thing I was wondering about, though, is how the electrodes would connect to the scalp. Would you have to use some kind of gel to ensure a good electrical contact is made? Also, would your scalp have to be shaved? Would probably cut down on sales, if people had to shave their heads to use the device. Wouldn't stop me from buying one, though.  ::chuckle:: 

Also, it might be an uphill battle to get such a product approved for non-medical uses. Not sure what the regulations are in that regard.

Another thought: There's probably no good reason why the electrodes for monitoring sleep state couldn't double as the electrodes for administering the electrical stimulation. That would reduce the number of electrodes required and might make the product cheaper and easier to use.

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## StephL

Soo - I have come across an article in WIRED on this study, and it is quite sobering to see the background of how they measured lucidity. 
Nobody in this study experienced a lucid dream at all, if I understand this correctly.
Here we go:


*Spoiler* for _the beginning of the article - stuff we already know_: 









> My dreams are often like a bad TV night – full of repeats that I’ve slept through many times before. Other people are luckier. Their dreams are more like a movie experience, but one where they not only get to choose the film, they can also take directorial control and influence the course of events. This is known as “lucid dreaming” and considered a half-way house between sleep and wakefulness.
> 
> In a study out this week, a team of psychologists led by Ursula Voss at the J.W. Goethe University in Frankfurt, claim to have given non lucid-dreamers the power of lucid dreaming by applying weak electrical current to the surface of their scalps and into their brains.
> 
> The rationale behind the study is simple. Past research has associated lucid dreaming with electrical brain activity in the low gamma range – around 40Hz. Voss and colleagues therefore used transcranial alternating current stimulation (tACS) to promote gamma activity in frontal and temporal regions of their participants’ brains, in the hope that this would provoke lucid dreaming (tACS is similar tDCS, which I’ve written about on this blog before).
> 
> I have to admit this reasoning tickled my BS-detector a little. Neurobunk research conducted in the 1960s made the mistake of assuming that because experienced meditators exhibit brain activity in the alpha range (around 10Hz), then teaching people to express alpha brainwaves would give them a shortcut to the peace and enlightenment associated with years of meditative practice. It was an elementary case of confusing correlation for causality and results were disappointing.
> 
> Despite my initial skepticism, it turns out that, aside from a small sample, this new dream research is well conducted. Voss and her team tested 27 healthy volunteers (15 women, 12 men, none of whom usually have lucid dreams) on four successive nights. Each night, the participants were zapped with electricity in a different frequency range or – and it’s important they included this condition – with no electricity at all (known as a “sham” treatment). The stimulation was delivered after between two and three minutes of uninterrupted REM sleep. Shortly afterwards the participants were woken and they answered questions about the dream they’d just had.
> ...










> Despite the robust methodology, I think these headlines are getting carried away. Here’s why. Lucid dreaming was defined by higher scores in participants’ feelings of insight (knowing that they were dreaming); dissociation (taking a third person perspective); and control (being able to shape events). I looked up the paper where the researchers first described their scale for measuring these factors. If I understand correctly, the participants rated their experience of these three factors on a scale of 0 (strongly disagree that I had such an experience) to 5 (strongly agree). Now if we look to see the scores they gave for how much dream insight, dissociation and control they had, we find that the averages for the gamma stimulation condition are around 0.6, 1.3, and 0.5 respectively.
> 
> Yes, these scores are significantly higher compared with stimulation at other frequencies and with sham treatment, but they are nonetheless incredibly low. A real life creation of the dream control depicted in the movie Inception, this is not! I suppose this study is a proof of principle, so let’s wait and see what comes from future research.
> 
> But actually one more thing – these kind of studies that examine the impact of brain stimulation seem so crude. Do the researchers really know what neural effect the stimulation is having and why? I don’t think they do – the explanation in this paper is typically sketchy. “We assume that lower gamma activity is mediated by activation of fast-spiking interneurons that are known to generate gamma oscillations in cortical networks … These networks have been proposed to gate sensory processing, which might also enable lucid dreaming in a temporarily specific manner.” Got that? No, me neither.



There is a discrepancy, though, with what is written in the livescience article linked up in the OP:





> The results showed that when the inexperienced dreamers were zapped with a current of 40 Hertz, 77 percent of the time these participants reported having* what were described as lucid dreams*.
> 
> "They were really excited," said study researcher Ursula Voss, of J.W. Goethe-University Frankfurt, who designed the experiments. "The dream reports were short, but long enough for them to report, 'Wow, all of the sudden I knew this was a dream, while I was dreaming.'



The wording I fattened is suspicious - but the below quote?

I have linked up to diagrams of the original paper only - there is no more - and I don't think, they can resolve this.
One needed to get at the complete paper.


By the way - another 2 interesting WIRED articles around the topic: 
The Unfinished Science Behind the New Wave of Electrical Brain Stimulation | Science | WIRED
Inside the Strange New World of DIY Brain Stimulation | Magazine | WIRED

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## Zthread

> If I understand correctly, the participants rated their experience of these three factors on a scale of 0 (strongly disagree that I had such an experience) to 5 (strongly agree). Now if we look to see the scores they gave for how much dream insight, dissociation and control they had, we find that the averages for the gamma stimulation condition are around 0.6, 1.3, and 0.5 respectively.







> The wording I fattened is suspicious - but the below quote?



Great points you've made here, StephL. I didn't realize the lucidity scores were based on a 5-point scale. So it sounds like many of the dreams influenced by the 25 & 40 Hz stimulation may not have actually been what most of us would consider to be lucid.





> One needed to get at the complete paper.



I actually bought the paper and read the whole thing. But the paper itself doesn't mention the 5-point scale. It does reference another paper that probably discussed the 5-point scale. I wish the paper had given a lot more examples of LDs described by the experimental subjects. It only gives one:





> Example of lucid dream report following 40-Hz stimulation. I was dreaming about lemon cake. It looked translucent, but then again, it didn’t. It was a bit like in an animated movie, like the Simpsons. And then I started falling and the scenery changed and I was talking to Matthias Schweighöfer (a German actor) and 2 foreign exchange students. And I was wondering about the actor and they told me “yes, you met him before,” so then I realized “oops, you are dreaming.” I mean, while I was dreaming! So strange!



I'd definitely call that a true LD. But there's no way of knowing from the paper how common actual LDs were for subjects stimulated at 25 and 40 Hz. Would be great to ask the authors about this.

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## nina

I was actually privileged enough to have taken part in an unofficial study regarding this very thing a few years back from someone over at mortal mist. They sent me a cranial stimulation device and I would place the electrodes on my head and tune to a specific frequency (that I'm not allowed to divulge due to confidentiality waiver) and use the device when I WBTB or WILD. First of all I nearly became addicted to this device because you could tune it to just about any frequency and I enjoyed experimenting with it so much...the effects it had ranged from sedative (at lower frequencies) to hallucinogenic to anxiousness and everything in between. There was one setting I'd use that literally made me think I was swinging back in forth in an enormous hammock and it was so damn relaxing. Anyways getting to the point, yes it made me lucid...yes it was hard to give the device back to its owner so other people could test it out as well  :smiley:  I looked into buying a CES device myself but they were several hundred dollars (at least a few years ago, I have no idea what the market is like these days). The key is having the freedom to set it to any frequency you want, a lot of cheaper devices only give you a few settings like alpha, beta, delta, gamma waves etc. which wouldn't cut it for something specific like lucid dreaming.

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## Zthread

> I was actually privileged enough to have taken part in an unofficial study regarding this very thing a few years back from someone over at mortal mist. They sent me a cranial stimulation device and I would place the electrodes on my head and tune to a specific frequency (that I'm not allowed to divulge due to confidentiality waiver) and use the device when I WBTB or WILD. First of all I nearly became addicted to this device because you could tune it to just about any frequency and I enjoyed experimenting with it so much...the effects it had ranged from sedative (at lower frequencies) to hallucinogenic to anxiousness and everything in between. There was one setting I'd use that literally made me think I was swinging back in forth in an enormous hammock and it was so damn relaxing. Anyways getting to the point, yes it made me lucid...yes it was hard to give the device back to its owner so other people could test it out as well  I looked into buying a CES device myself but they were several hundred dollars (at least a few years ago, I have no idea what the market is like these days). The key is having the freedom to set it to any frequency you want, a lot of cheaper devices only give you a few settings like alpha, beta, delta, gamma waves etc. which wouldn't cut it for something specific like lucid dreaming.



I also participated in that Mortal Mist study. I tried it a lot, with various frequencies, including the recommended one. Unfortunately, it didn't do much of anything for me, at least for inducing LDs. I guess nothing works for everyone. Or I might have been doing something wrong.

How often did you get lucid with CES? Was it anywhere close to the 77% success rate reported in the Nature paper? Also, are you someone who gets lucid fairly easily?

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## jonesn

> Soo - I have come across an article in WIRED on this study, and it is quite sobering to see the background of how they measured lucidity. 
> Nobody in this study experienced a lucid dream at all, if I understand this correctly.
> Here we go:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler* for _the beginning of the article - stuff we already know_: 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Steph,

I think you're right to an extent about this WIRED article but it also illustrates a fine point about the term "lucid dreaming".

Lucidity can't really be viewed as a PASS/FAIL result because the complexities that determine this state of consciousness are so numerous and often independent of each other. What I mean is, there's a difference between being "lucid" in a dream versus being truly "cognizant" in a dream, with the latter being a state of pure consciousness wherein you have gained not just basic engagement but also volition/control and the ability to carry on that state for longer than a brief moment.

It's possible the goal of lucidity in the Voss/Hobson study was achieved when they simply made a user less _dissociative_ (1.3 of 5.0 being a good score), which could arguably apply to lower-level lucidity. To me the measurements of insight and control apply more to a higher-level "cognizant" dreaming state, though they were not necessary to claim success of simple lower-level lucidity.

I've always believed that to become truly lucid in a dream it needs to be a product of your own volition so that it can be maintained for longer than a brief moment. In this study the gamma-zap to the frontal lobes brought a brief and fleeting surge of awareness in the same way that a defibrillator brings a jolt to the heart. Draw your own conclusions on that metaphor  :smiley:

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## Zthread

> Lucidity can't really be viewed as a PASS/FAIL result because the complexities that determine this state of consciousness are so numerous and often independent of each other. What I mean is, there's a difference between being "lucid" in a dream versus being truly "cognizant" in a dream, with the latter being a state of pure consciousness wherein you have gained not just basic engagement but also volition/control and the ability to carry on that state for longer than a brief moment.



That's a good point. I sometimes have difficulty deciding whether a particular dream I've had was lucid or not.





> It's possible the goal of lucidity in the Voss/Hobson study was achieved when they simply made a user less _dissociative_ (1.3 of 5.0 being a good score), which could arguably apply to lower-level lucidity. To me the measurements of insight and control apply more to a higher-level "cognizant" dreaming state, though they were not necessary to claim success of simple lower-level lucidity.
> 
> I've always believed that to become truly lucid in a dream it needs to be a product of your own volition so that it can be maintained for longer than a brief moment. In this study the gamma-zap to the frontal lobes brought a brief and fleeting surge of awareness in the same way that a defibrillator brings a jolt to the heart. Draw your own conclusions on that metaphor



The question is whether that brief surge of awareness could transform a regular dream into a true LD. It did so in at least one case in the Nature paper:





> Example of lucid dream report following 40-Hz stimulation. I was dreaming about lemon cake. It looked translucent, but then again, it didn’t. It was a bit like in an animated movie, like the Simpsons. And then I started falling and the scenery changed and I was talking to Matthias Schweighöfer (a German actor) and 2 foreign exchange students. And I was wondering about the actor and they told me “yes, you met him before,” so then I realized “oops, you are dreaming.” I mean, while I was dreaming! So strange!



Sounds like they woke the subjects up before they had a chance to experience much lucidity. The tACS stimulation was applied for 30 seconds. Then 10 seconds later, the subjects were woken up. As a follow-up experiment, it would be interesting to see how long the lucidity could be maintained once it has been induced.

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## nina

> I also participated in that Mortal Mist study. I tried it a lot, with various frequencies, including the recommended one. Unfortunately, it didn't do much of anything for me, at least for inducing LDs. I guess nothing works for everyone. Or I might have been doing something wrong.
> 
> How often did you get lucid with CES? Was it anywhere close to the 77% success rate reported in the Nature paper? Also, are you someone who gets lucid fairly easily?



I don't have the details about exactly how often I got lucid, but I can say that I am a natural lucid dreamer and typically have 1-3 lucids a week without any induction methods. I definitely go through dry spells too where I won't LD at all for a month or so, but then they randomly come back for whatever reason. The CES for me definitely qualifies as an induction method so it's only natural that my LD frequency would increase a bit just from experimenting with the device and being in the mind set to get lucid, regardless of the device's actual effectiveness. The correlations I was able to make were more indirect...in that I was lucid in general more often during the times when I was experimenting with the device, rather than becoming lucid directly as a result of having the device on during a REM period if that makes any sense.

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## Zthread

> I don't have the details about exactly how often I got lucid, but I can say that I am a natural lucid dreamer and typically have 1-3 lucids a week without any induction methods. I definitely go through dry spells too where I won't LD at all for a month or so, but then they randomly come back for whatever reason. The CES for me definitely qualifies as an induction method so it's only natural that my LD frequency would increase a bit just from experimenting with the device and being in the mind set to get lucid, regardless of the device's actual effectiveness. The correlations I was able to make were more indirect...in that I was lucid in general more often during the times when I was experimenting with the device, rather than becoming lucid directly as a result of having the device on during a REM period if that makes any sense.



So it may have been at least partially the placebo effect, in your case. Must be nice to be a natural lucid dreamer!

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## Zoth

> A link from the above article to the paper's abstract and *several diagrams*: 
> Induction of self awareness in dreams through frontal low current stimulation of gamma activity : Nature Neuroscience : Nature Publishing Group



In case someone is still looking for the article. Great discussion btw ^^

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## StephL

Great - thanks Zoth!
Will work myself through it and see, what it is all about with the 77% and lucidity indicators vs. actual lucid dreams.
Not instantly obvious from a glance over it.

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## Zoth

> Great - thanks Zoth!
> Will work myself through it and see, what it is all about with the 77% and lucidity indicators vs. actual lucid dreams.
> Not instantly obvious from a glance over it.



Considering Voss was one of the authors, you can probably get some more insight by reviewing her "Lucidity Scale". I won't be surprised if it keeps showing in future studies of this nature. Here's the article.

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## StephL

Thanks again - I was just about to edit in, that I found nothing else whatsoever on the measuring method in the paper than an attached reference number, which is really not in order for something absolutely central and crucial, actually.
And strangely - the references in your link start with number 20.
Now I'll check the other paper.
Did you find out how many actual lucid moments were triggered by this? Per how many test runs?
I very much doubt, it was 77% and I very much dislike obscurantism in scientific papers.
I read quite a lot of them things in original - and I got to say - the OP's one is very hard to digest - how can it be, that they don't make it clear, what their actual results were?
On the other hand - it made it into Nature ..?

Well - got to read them both completely.
What they did in that second paper, seems to be comparing reports of lucid and non-lucid dreams for in the end 8 criteria, two of which wouldn't be really useful, since not significantly different, namely realism and negative emotions. Below they forget to say that memory is also significantly better, but they do in the text. Hence - 6 factors:





> The goal of this study was to identify the phenomenological correlates of primary and secondary consciousness in dreams
> and to introduce the LuCiD scale as a reliable means for the measurement of lucidity and consciousness in dreams. According
> to our ﬁndings, dream consciousness can best be described through the factors (1) INSIGHT, (2) CONTROL, (3) THOUGHT, (4)
> REALISM, (5) *MEMORY*, (6) DISSOCIATION, (7) NEGATIVE EMOTION, and (8) POSITIVE EMOTION. Whereas normal REM sleep
> dreams lack those factors requiring secondary consciousness, lucid dreams are deﬁned through those, namely *insight*,
> *thought, control*, and *dissociation*. In addition, lucid dreaming seems to be accompanied by *positive emotion*, suggesting that secondary consciousness adds cognitive functions and positive emotionality onto primary consciousness.



They found out, that in these 6 factors on a scale from 0-5, lucid dream report reap significantly higher values.
I guess, it's really like the WIRED article suspects - they woke people up and inquired about the (only 3) criteria, and analysed the values.
If they were significantly higher under stimulation, than without, where LDs have higher values - then that constituted a degree of lucidity. 
And if the absolute mean values were as low as WIRED cited (can't easily find them) - that's pretty disappointing for all practical purposes let alone justifying diy experiments.
Proof of principle only.

I hope, I'm wrong..
Correct me, if so - I'm going to have to read both properly, before coming to a serious conclusion.
And I'm so disappointed, I am too lazy.
Don't get me wrong - if it's "just that" - it's fascinating anyway - but the media hype around it takes the fun out of it for me.

----------


## Zthread

> And if the absolute mean values were as low as WIRED cited (can't easily find them) - that's pretty disappointing for all practical purposes let alone justifying diy experiments.



The numbers mentioned by Wired are shown graphically in Figure 3 of the Nature paper.





> I hope, I'm wrong..
> Correct me, if so - I'm going to have to read both properly, before coming to a serious conclusion.



Might be worth a try to email a question or two to the principal author. Her email address is provided in the paper at the bottom of page 1. She might just mark such an email as spam. But maybe not.

----------


## StephL

Thank you Zthread!
I might just do that!
If I will - of course I will report!

----------


## StephL

Well well - here a nice graphic, which the authors did not provide so concisely - it stems from converting diagrams of theirs, so the data can be interpreted easily - from here: The Neurocritic: Does Gamma tACS Really Induce Lucid Dreaming?
Cheers, Zoth!



_Mean scores for LuCiD scales for non-lucid vs. lucid dream reports - NOTE: each scale goes from 0: strongly disagree to 5: strongly agree. 
The yellow bars indicate means after 25 or 40 Hz tACS.
_

Blue is normal dreams - red is real lucids - and yellow is where the people ended up after stimulation.
The mean insight level reached with stimulation is below 1!! So they _very much disagree_ with the notion that they were aware of the fact, they were dreaming.
While they did find something, I am aware of that -  the LDing community is again confronted with a huge disappointment in my eyes, which could have been avoided by less sensationalist presentation - especially in the secondary sources, of course.

----------


## Zthread

> The mean insight level reached with stimulation is below 1!! So they _very much disagree_ with the notion that they were aware of the fact, they were dreaming. While they did find something, I am aware of that - the LDing community is again confronted with a huge disappointment in my eyes, which could have been avoided by less sensationalist presentation - especially in the secondary sources, of course.



On the positive side, though, it's still pretty encouraging that they were able to induce statistically significant increases in proven indicators of lucidity in subjects who were not LD enthusiasts, using weak electrical stimulation (0.25 mA peak-to-peak) for a duration of only 30 seconds. In addition, at least one of the participants had an actual LD:





> *Example of lucid dream report following 40-Hz stimulation.* I was dreaming about lemon cake. It looked translucent, but then again, it didnt. It was a bit like in an animated movie, like the Simpsons. And then I started falling and the scenery changed and I was talking to Matthias Schweighöfer (a German actor) and 2 foreign exchange students. And I was wondering about the actor and they told me "yes, you met him before," so then I realized "oops, you are dreaming." I mean, while I was dreaming! So strange!



So it's possible that by optimizing the tACS amplitude, frequency, duration, and time of application during the sleep cycle, a high probability of inducing actual LDs could be achieved.

I just sent the following email to the principal author of the paper:





> Dear Dr. Voss,
> 
> As someone who is interested in lucid dreaming, I very much enjoyed your recent Nature paper on induction of self awareness in dreams using electrical stimulation of the scalp. Your finding that the LuCiD factors of insight, dissociation and control can be increased through tACS scalp stimulation is extremely interesting and potentially valuable in clinical applications. However, it wasn't completely clear to me what percentage of the dream reports following 25 Hz and 40 Hz stimulation indicated that the subject actually had a lucid dream. Your paper states that: "Regarding subjective ratings of lucidity, lucid dreams were most prominent during stimulation with 25 (58%) and 40 Hz (77%) suggesting that the rate and/or periodicity of oscillatory activity in the brain is causally relevant for higher cognitive functioning[13,14] and that lower gamma-band activity may indeed be a necessary condition for the elicitation of secondary consciousness in dreams, perhaps even in waking." Does this mean that in the case of the 40 Hz stimulation, for example, 77% of the subjects actually had lucid dreams? Or does it mean that 77% of those subjects had statistically significant increases in LuCiD factors, but that they didn't all have what would normally be considered to be a lucid dream? If the latter is the case, what percentage of the subjects had dreams that would normally be considered to be lucid, for both 25 Hz and 77 Hz stimulation? Thank you for doing this valuable work. I hope you have continued success in your future research projects.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> [Zthread]

----------


## StephL

Fantastic Zthread - thanks - we should really do that - take up direct contact to scientists - also wonderfully put!
Looking forward to find out, how they will react - and of course to finding out the number of actual lucid dreams having been elicited.
The lemon cake citation must mean - they elicited at least one. How many, though?

----------


## Zthread

> Looking forward to find out, how they will react - and of course to finding out the number of actual lucid dreams having been elicited.



She might just delete it without replying. We'll see.





> The lemon cake citation must mean - they elicited at least one. How many, though?



Right. Definitely one. Whether or not there were more depends on what they really meant by this statement:

"Regarding subjective ratings of lucidity, lucid dreams were most prominent during stimulation with 25 (58%) and 40 Hz (77%) suggesting that..."

----------


## IAmCoder

One of my users is trying to reproduce the findings. You can see the effect of the tACS on the raw EEG reading:



And this is what he has found so far:





> I am beginning to realize that zapping the brain synchronizes it to the desired stimulated frequency (alpha, beta , delta etc.) much more powerfully than any sound and lights.

----------


## Zthread

> One of my users is trying to reproduce the findings. You can see the effect of the tACS on the raw EEG reading:
> 
> And this is what he has found so far:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not sure I understand this. The horizontal scale must be seconds. What is the vertical scale? Is the gray trace the tACS stimulation? And the blue and green curves show that the brain state was changed and REM was induced? Is the NeuroSky device capable of doing the tACS? Doesn't look like it, based on their website. So was another device used to produce the tACS stimulation?

----------


## IAmCoder

Yes, the horizontal scale is in seconds, so the printout shows one minute. The vertical scale shows the raw EEG signal from the NeuroSky device. You can read more about it here: Brain Wave Signal (EEG) of NeuroSky and use this formula to convert the raw values to voltages: (rawValue * (1.8/4096)) / 2000. This is due to a 2000x gain, 4096 value range, and 1.8V input voltage.

The blue channel is just a slowed down and averaged out version of the raw data. The raw channel is sampled at 512 Hz, but the blue channel only runs at 10 Hz. The green channel is a count of eye movements, which is normally used to trigger audio tracks and now tACS devices. The subject was awake during this test (at 18:39) and manually turned on the tACS device - the block of gray shows the effect of the tACS on the raw EEG. But the latest version now does that automatically after counting six consecutive eye movements. 

And yes, the NeuroSky device is not doing the tACS. This device was used: g.Estim - g.tec's programmable electrical current stimulator - it is now connected to an Arduino board which forwards the signal from the app after it detects the eye movements, but that can also be done with USB relays. This one should work too: JACE Systems Electrotherapy TriStim. And this is the one that was used in the study: neuroConn - DC-STIMULATOR PLUS for tDCS and tACS.

----------


## Zthread

> Yes, the horizontal scale is in seconds, so the printout shows one minute. The vertical scale shows the raw EEG signal from the NeuroSky device. You can read more about it here: Brain Wave Signal (EEG) of NeuroSky and use this formula to convert the raw values to voltages: (rawValue * (1.8/4096)) / 2000. This is due to a 2000x gain, 4096 value range, and 1.8V input voltage.
> 
> The blue channel is just a slowed down and averaged out version of the raw data. The raw channel is sampled at 512 Hz, but the blue channel only runs at 10 Hz. The green channel is a count of eye movements, which is normally used to trigger audio tracks and now tACS devices. The subject was awake during this test (at 18:39) and manually turned on the tACS device - the block of gray shows the effect of the tACS on the raw EEG. But the latest version now does that automatically after counting six consecutive eye movements. 
> 
> And yes, the NeuroSky device is not doing the tACS. This device was used: g.Estim - g.tec's programmable electrical current stimulator - it is now connected to an Arduino board which forwards the signal from the app after it detects the eye movements, but that can also be done with USB relays. This one should work too: JACE Systems Electrotherapy TriStim. And this is the one that was used in the study: neuroConn - DC-STIMULATOR PLUS for tDCS and tACS.



So the main significance of the chart you posted is to show that the tACS has an effect on the brain state? How do we know that it's not just the tACS current that's being directly detected, rather than brain state? It looks like the brain state goes right back to normal after the tACS is shut off. Or am I misunderstanding it?

Thanks for providing the links to the tACS devices. How difficult is it for someone who's not a medical professional to buy one? And how expensive are they?

----------


## IAmCoder

It is the tACS current that is being directly detected. And the brain state does go back to normal, so all we have to go on for now is the subjective statement. It would be interesting to see a longer recording with the power bands turned on.

Not sure what they cost or how to get one as a mortal, will see if I can find out.

----------


## Zthread

The following blog from July 18, 2012 mentions prices for a couple of tDCS devices. Prices for tACS devices are probably similar.

Device | DIY tDCS - Part 2





> There are presently only two stand-alone devices that produce tDCS. They are: the Eldith DC Stimulator by Neuro Conn, of Germany, which sells for €3000 (about $4,000US) and the CESta, by Mind Alive Inc., of Canada, which sells for $350US. [now $450. + accessories]



Wouldn't buy one for $4000, but maybe for $450.

----------


## StephL

Hm - so it isn't even sure, that the brain state adapted to the current, because the current directly would overshadow it anyway?
Are we sure, that they took care of that problem in the original paper?
No e-mail yet, Zthread?

----------


## jeffg

In the original study they applied a notch band filter at 40Hz to take care of the problemstudy.jpg

This is the setup I used from the lucidcode website

setup.jpg

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## StephL

Thank you jeff!
Making your pictures big:

----------


## jeffg

This setup seems to work only in the early morning between 4-5am by entrainiment of 40 Hz gamma waves. This makes the frontal and occipital regions artificially active during the REM sleep stage and viola. Part of the brain is asleep and part is wide awake

LucidREM.jpg

----------


## IAmCoder

Elite. Was wondering if we couldn't also filter out the 40 Hz at some point.

When you play the 40 Hz while awake, do you feel more aware?

Can you record a minute while awake and relaxed with the EEG power bands on, followed by the tACS and then another minute directly after the tACS. Was wondering if any of the channels change afterwards...

----------


## gururise

Was thinking about using my Zeo Bedside +Serial cable to detect REM and then have my computer trigger flashing LED's + 40Hz tACs for 30-45 seconds during the beginning of REM stage.  Still waiting on some of the parts to arrive and I'm looking for a cheap 3.3v Arduino + BLE.  According to the data in the paper, it seems tACs stimulation (as applied in the experiment) would not be enough to achieve what would be considered a lucid dream state by many members of this site.  I believe they only applied tACs for 30 seconds or something like that.  Perhaps adjusting duration or other parameters would be enough to achieve better lucidity.

----------


## jeffg

> Elite. Was wondering if we couldn't also filter out the 40 Hz at some point.
> 
> When you play the 40 Hz while awake, do you feel more aware?
> 
> Can you record a minute while awake and relaxed with the EEG power bands on, followed by the tACS and then another minute directly after the tACS. Was wondering if any of the channels change afterwards...



The setup works well now using the Zeoscope , modified to trigger the arduino Lucid.jpg(tACs) play along with the music track and only arm the tACs after 5am
During lucid gamma goes up from 0.08 to 0.2 , while during the wake stage is usually 0.3
Attached is the actual capture of the lucid dream,  the REM sleep before 5:am only triggers audio and after 5:am the waveform gets erratic coz of tACS interference

----------


## Ctharlhie

How long until we see a LDing tACS kickstarter, I wonder?

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> How long until we see a LDing tACS kickstarter, I wonder?



It would be great if tACS kickstarters would have aswell optional options of flashing lights or beeping sound  :Cheeky: 

I think 40 Hertz are just slightly boosting our awareness which allows us to figure out easily that it's a dream
With those optional features it would be quite hard to not notice that it's dream  ::D:

----------


## jeffg

> How long until we see a LDing tACS kickstarter, I wonder?



I don't think the FDA will easily approve the use of tACs for widespread public use, but there is hope
Attached a clearer image
imgur: the simple image sharer

I am guessing some muse with cefaly type combo will be the future of LDing for the masses
_*Links removed*_Muse: the brain sensing headband
_*Links removed*_ Cefaly

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> I am guessing some muse with cefaly type combo will be the future of LDing for the masses *_links removed_*



It does not needs to be tACS right?
People would just need to create machine that could apply 2mA of 40 Hz on our brain, make it comfortable and sell it. Right?

----------


## Box77

^^ I didn't read the whole thread in detail yet, but I think it must also detect when the REM stage has started and when it ends to turn it on and off.

I was wondering if was not just "the itchy on the head" what was actually causing people to slightly wake up inside their dreams enough to realize it's a dream? How does it feel those signals through the electrodes while awake? What about if trying other ways to "stimulate" brain activity after entering the REM stage, say by placing the electrodes in the fingers and inducing different values of current flow?

----------


## Ctharlhie

> It does not needs to be tACS right?
> People would just need to create machine that could apply 2mA of 40 Hz on our brain, make it comfortable and sell it. Right?



_And safe._

----------


## jeffg

> ^^ I didn't read the whole thread in detail yet, but I think it must also detect when the REM stage has started and when it ends to turn it on and off.
> 
> I was wondering if was not just "the itchy on the head" what was actually causing people to slightly wake up inside their dreams enough to realize it's a dream? How does it feel those signals through the electrodes while awake? What about if trying other ways to "stimulate" brain activity after entering the REM stage, say by placing the electrodes in the fingers and inducing different values of current flow?



Dear Box77m,

You've raised a valid point: does a mere interruption of REM sleep simply trigger lucid dream awareness?

Unfortunately not,according to scientific scrutiny, that is deserving of a publication in Nature, it would seem....

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/...l/nn.3719.html

Lucid Dreaming: A State of Consciousness with Features of Both Waking and Non-Lucid Dreaming

----------


## StephL

> This setup seems to work only in the early morning between 4-5am by entrainiment of 40 Hz gamma waves. This makes the frontal and occipital regions artificially active during the REM sleep stage and viola. Part of the brain is asleep and part is wide awake



I just like making pictures a bit bigger!  ::wink:: 






> Was thinking about using my Zeo Bedside +Serial cable to detect REM and then have my computer trigger flashing LED's + 40Hz tACs for 30-45 seconds during the beginning of REM stage.  Still waiting on some of the parts to arrive and I'm looking for a cheap 3.3v Arduino + BLE.  According to the data in the paper, it seems tACs stimulation (as applied in the experiment) would not be enough to achieve what would be considered a lucid dream state by many members of this site.  I believe they only applied tACs for 30 seconds or something like that.  Perhaps adjusting duration or other parameters would be enough to achieve better lucidity.



I googled Zeo and came across this:

Exclusive: Sleep coach company Zeo is shutting down | mobihealthnews

While on first glance this might remind some of us of LUCI and the kickstarter scam, people, incl. forum-members, have found out about and cleared up -
but not so!
This article is actually full of praise - and it looks from their view as if they just hadn't been able to financially make it and arrange themselves with the FDA fast enough. By my impression from that article - this device should be able to detect and record your brain-states - incl. of course REM - properly and accurately.
A project conceived by a group of Brown University students initially.
Am I mistaken?






> I don't think the FDA will easily approve the use of tACs for widespread public use, but there is hope
> Attached a clearer image
> imgur: the simple image sharer
> 
> I am guessing some muse with cefaly type combo will be the future of LDing for the masses
> Muse: the brain sensing headband
> Cefaly Shop | Cefaly



I guess you are right with the FDA - but there are some fascinating articles about the "self-zapping scene" - not sure now if I have already linked up in here. 
Two of them were from Wired Magazine.
Looking Cefaly up I found that even this appliance is only available with a medical prescription for migraine.






> It does not needs to be tACS right?
> People would just need to create machine that could apply 2mA of 40 Hz on our brain, make it comfortable and sell it. Right?



Do you mean, that it doesn't necessarily need to be alternating currents? 






> *How does it feel those signals through the electrodes while awake?*



Very good question!
Does one get a sensation? Would it be possible to blind a study with awake people not against another stimulation, but against no stimulation at all? 
I guess not. And would people notice other than surface phenomena in a statistically relevant manner, double-blindly studied, if possible? 
Upgrade to Persinger's failed god-helmet one might even wonder...?






> Dear Box77m,
> 
> You've raised a valid point: does a mere interruption of REM sleep simply trigger lucid dream awareness?
> 
> Unfortunately not,according to scientific scrutiny, that is deserving of a publication in Nature, it would seem....
> 
> http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/...l/nn.3719.html
> 
> Lucid Dreaming: A State of Consciousness with Features of Both Waking and Non-Lucid Dreaming



Thank you for your links - I will have to read up on those yet - but this here is very enjoyable I have to say!

----------


## jeffg

The TACS setup (thanks for the big help from Michael/Lucidscribe)works well for me now and have a success rate of almost 70%,and it triggers very vivid dreams and an almost 100% dream recall.Modified the setup completely, since the headbands were getting in the way and now use the stick-on EEG electrodes that are non intrusive and give a goodnite's sleep. The same electrodes monitor for REM and deliver the current as well. 
Attached is a clearer picture. 
http://i.imgur.com/BF4R9Zc.jpg

and the waveform...

http://i.imgur.com/fIlcPIw.jpg

----------


## SonatArctica

> Re: Binaural beats.
> 
> Binaural beats - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Wikipedia refers to the 'cocktail effect' in beat frequencies generally anything over 30 Hz. However in the same article there is reference to a 40 Hz binaural beat frequency.
> 
> 
> 
> Schwarz DW, Taylor P (2005). "Human auditory steady state responses to binaural and monaural beats". Clinical Neurophysiology 116 (3): 65868. 
> 
> ...



i came across this article some days ago:
Gamma-Frequenzen lassen jetzt luzide träumen!

In this blog, Jonathan Dilas (the author) claims he made a MP3 causing gamma waves (based on the above research of course) in the brain leading to lucid dreams. some of his customers says, that they had indeed lucid and vivid dreams. 
what to think of this?

some one else who had/have success with gamma sounds?

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> i came across this article some days ago:
> Gamma-Frequenzen lassen jetzt luzide träumen!
> 
> In this blog, Jonathan Dilas (the author) claims he made a MP3 causing gamma waves (based on the above research of course) in the brain leading to lucid dreams. some of his customers says, that they had indeed lucid and vivid dreams. 
> what to think of this?
> 
> some one else who had/have success with gamma sounds?



I'm not an expert yet i belive even if sound was 40 Hz frequency then during travel through earlobe it will become more and more distorted.
Every single person has small yet still differences inside earlobe 
So the sound for one person might de-stabilzie and result in 71 Hz from 40 Hz, while for other person it might result in 50 Hz
That's my tiny theory  ::-P:

----------


## SearcherTMR

> i came across this article some days ago:
> Gamma-Frequenzen lassen jetzt luzide träumen!
> 
> In this blog, Jonathan Dilas (the author) claims he made a MP3 causing gamma waves (based on the above research of course) in the brain leading to lucid dreams. some of his customers says, that they had indeed lucid and vivid dreams. 
> what to think of this?
> 
> some one else who had/have success with gamma sounds?



Hi,
I have tried gamma recordings with no success so far. What I did was this: I made an 8 min, 40 hz simple sine recording using acoustica and and used the iphone app DreamZ that detects REM sleep to deliver the recording. I also tried looping the recording along with 40 min silence for the whole night. Neither method (for several nights) led to any results for me. To make the picture clear, I used to lucid dream a lot but I have many months to try. Hoped for quick results but unfortunately... No success....

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> Hi,
> I have tried gamma recordings with no success so far. What I did was this: I made an 8 min, 40 hz simple sine recording using acoustica and and used the iphone app DreamZ that detects REM sleep to deliver the recording. I also tried looping the recording along with 40 min silence for the whole night. Neither method (for several nights) led to any results for me. To make the picture clear, I used to lucid dream a lot but I have many months to try. Hoped for quick results but unfortunately... No success....



I guess there's a slight difference between directly applied 40 hz electricity dose compared to soundwave at frequency of 40 hz
Since the soundwave will more than likely distort itself on the way through your ear canal?

----------


## SearcherTMR

> I guess there's a slight difference between directly applied 40 hz electricity dose compared to soundwave at frequency of 40 hz
> Since the soundwave will more than likely distort itself on the way through your ear canal?



I don't think there is a difference in the perceived frequency. The problem may have to do with brain entrainment. It might be easier to sync the brain waves to a particular frequency using tACS than audio. But again, the original report in Nature Neuroscience that started it all, proved to be -under close investigation- a semi fraud. It did result in statisticaly significant differences in scores but NOT in significant increases in Lucid Dreaming frequency (the 77% was calculated using the completely misleading assumption that anything above mean scores equals a lucid dream...).
So, if the original study did not achieve a significant increase in lucid dream frequency, why should a 40hz audio do that? 
So why did I try? Just in case....





> The TACS setup (thanks for the big help from Michael/Lucidscribe)works well for me now and have a success rate of almost 70%,and it triggers very vivid dreams and an almost 100% dream recall.Modified the setup completely, since the headbands were getting in the way and now use the stick-on EEG electrodes that are non intrusive and give a goodnite's sleep. The same electrodes monitor for REM and deliver the current as well. 
> Attached is a clearer picture. 
> http://i.imgur.com/BF4R9Zc.jpg
> 
> and the waveform...
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/fIlcPIw.jpg



Hi Jeffg.
Can I ask you what exactly do you mean with 70% success rate? 
A lucid dream every 7 out of 10 nights/trials? 
I mean a real lucid dream at almost every trial - or a "statistically significant change in dream content"....or something...
What was your success rate prior to this setup? Is 70% attributed to the setup or part of it would be your normal accomplishment?
I am just trying to figure out if the cost and the time in developing such a system is justifiable.
If it proves to be, I will most likely build one like yours!
Thanks!

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> Hi Jeffg.
> Can I ask you what exactly do you mean with 70% success rate? 
> A lucid dream every 7 out of 10 nights/trials? 
> I mean a real lucid dream at almost every trial - or a "statistically significant change in dream content"....or something...
> What was your success rate prior to this setup? Is 70% attributed to the setup or part of it would be your normal accomplishment?
> I am just trying to figure out if the cost and the time in developing such a system is justifiable.
> If it proves to be, I will most likely build one like yours!
> Thanks!



I'm not him but i think i know what he means
Sometimes in my failed wild attempts i fell asleep and if i were close enough to dream entrance then i didn't know that i'm dreaming yet i had increased slightly awareness and dreams were slight quality. It was easy as heck always to figure out it's a dream during such lucky fails. 
Something like that i guess  ::yeah::

----------


## SearcherTMR

> I'm not him



Hi Misaka,
Thanks for the reply, I know what you mean, I have had this kind of pre-lucid awareness after failed WILD attempts but if I did not become actually Lucid, I classify the dream as semi-lucid (definitely not the same as a real Lucid...)
Anyway, I still would like to hear from Jeffg, as I want a more quantitative presentation of his results if I am to build his setup...

----------


## jeffg

Hi SearcherTMR
The setup works great now and I have been fine tuning the lucid dream triggering down to almost 100% strike rate using the WBTB method ( by 70% I meant 7 out of 10 times). Just set the alarm to 4:00 am stick on the electrodes, turn on the stim and go back to sleep and the Lucidscribe triggers during REM and viola! you can do anything you like.... . In fact I am confident that as time goes by, the mind gets better and better trained and you do not need an external stimulus anymore. The 40Hz electric stimulation is just like a scaffold, a temporary building block to help you get started and once you get the hang of it, I am certain that Lucid dreams can eventually be triggered at will. 







> Hi Misaka,
> Thanks for the reply, I know what you mean, I have had this kind of pre-lucid awareness after failed WILD attempts but if I did not become actually Lucid, I classify the dream as semi-lucid (definitely not the same as a real Lucid...)
> Anyway, I still would like to hear from Jeffg, as I want a more quantitative presentation of his results if I am to build his setup...

----------


## MisakaMikoto

Hi jeffg,

Congrats on your research successes  ::yeah:: 
I'm wondering about one thingy
Are you maybe planning in future releasing something like kickstarter or just a possiblity to purchase such device
If no then maybe you might in future plan to create a guide how to make one like that 

- Cheers  :Cheeky:

----------


## jeffg

Hi Misaka,

Michael is trying to replicate the same experiment
Equipment Donation | lucidcode
Attached is a simple wiring diagram of his setup
http://i.imgur.com/UDbjiI7.jpg

I am now using the upixie instead of the Jace and it outputs the sound waveform of 40HZ as an electric current and far easier to use with Lucidscribe

*_Link removed_* uPixie

----------


## SearcherTMR

> Hi SearcherTMR
> The setup works great now and I have been fine tuning the lucid dream triggering down to almost 100% strike rate using the WBTB method ( by 70% I meant 7 out of 10 times). Just set the alarm to 4:00 am stick on the electrodes, turn on the stim and go back to sleep and the Lucidscribe triggers during REM and viola! you can do anything you like.... . In fact I am confident that as time goes by, the mind gets better and better trained and you do not need an external stimulus anymore. The 40Hz electric stimulation is just like a scaffold, a temporary building block to help you get started and once you get the hang of it, I am certain that Lucid dreams can eventually be triggered at will.



Hi Jeffg
Thanks a lot for your answer!
WOW! Seems that the article that started it all was not made-up after all...
With some modification you can really have on-demand lucid dreams!
 I'm sure a Kickstarter product will soon be on the way for those who cannot build one.
 As for me, if you had replied 6 days ago, I would have resumed my efforts on building a similar device. But since then, I have tried a method that -for me - proved magical with unparalleled results- and it is easy and costs nothing. It is the SSILD method and gave me 2 lucids (1st, 2nd) in three trials, so I will keep up with that for now. 
Nevertheless, If on the long run it proves to be less effective, I will resume building a gamma device! Thanks again!

Btw Jeffg, you have posted links to great products - ideas for those that want to experiment!

----------


## SearcherTMR

Hi everyone!
I had hoped that this thread would gain popularity again after jeff's succesfull attempts on replicating the results of the study, or that another similar thread would carry on the discussion about the most promissing induction method ever....
This is obviusly not happening  ::sad2:: 
Nevertheless I want to post some relative news to keep the thread active...
Dr. Ursula Voss had not replied to zthread's mail - nor to the similar one that I sent her some days later - but she did reply to lucidSages mails, finally answering (although not very clearly) our questions...
Interview with Dr. Ursula Voss, PhD - Lucid Dreaming
Also, the kickstarter campain "Oneirics" has as a stretch goal the development of a comercial product based on Dr. Ursula Voss research.
If anyone else has any updates on the subject, please, post here!

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> I don't think the FDA will easily approve the use of tACs for widespread public use, but there is hope
> Attached a clearer image
> imgur: the simple image sharer
> 
> I am guessing some muse with cefaly type combo will be the future of LDing for the masses
> _*Links removed*_Muse: the brain sensing headband
> _*Links removed*_ Cefaly



It seems to be becoming commercial tbh:
FOC.US - transcranial direct current stimulation for gamers - take charge
Using tDCS for playing games is serously big joke  ::-P: 
So why not use this for something more amazing like lucid dreaming  ::yeah:: 

*Edit:*

OHHHHH MANNN WAIT WAIT WAIT
It allows currency  from 0.8 to 2.0mA
And time from 5min to 40 mins with app
All that it needs now is 40 Hz
I guess somebody as smart as Jeffg should email them about lucid dreaming. I belive their mail is ([email protected])
If we will give them enough information and enough prove that it will be userful and consumers will buy it then we might be able to convince them to add option for modfiying hz or for switching from x hz to 40 hz for lucid dreaming

SOMEBODY SHOULD ALERT JEFF OR MICHEAL FROM LUCIDCODE
IF FOC.US GUYS GET CONVINCED FOR SWITCH FOR 40 HZ WE GET 179€ WORTH tDCS LDS
OH MAN IM TOO HYPED LOOOO

----------


## LucidSage

From her responses to me it seemed that she is not only very busy with research but had to attend to other matters and was unable to reply often, let alone quickly. 

I will talk about it more in one of the next podcast episodes but in general, despite her (and her research team) looking at it from a different point of view than we do, I felt that my concerns were mostly put to rest. 

There are many people working on devices in the same vain (myself included) and a consumer version is not far one way or another.

----------


## thewolf16

Hey,

thats very awesome what jeffg archieved. Did "michael" already tried it out and has an experience report? A consumer version will come in some days:

*_As per DV rules, commercial link to product discussed removed*_

Ive ordered one and im very excited after jeffs report. One thing i dont really like is the subsription model. But if it really works then its the best thing since sliced bread. You can read on the website that you just could order the beta-prototype till the 15th october. But because some Paypal-problem they´ve prolonged the pre-order period.

This is how i understand dr. voss´s statement: The low LuCiD scale just has something to do with the technique. It seems that you aren´t so lucid with the DILD technique at the beginning as with the techniques WILD and MILD. The 40hz-stimulated LD´s are simular with the DILD lucid dreams, so you can compare in this case DILD with WILD or MILD. While youre fully lucid at the beginning of a WILD or MILD LD, on a DILD LD you have to get a awareness with dreamsigns and have to intensify it with some techniques like reality checks and whatnot. But in this study they´ve used subjects who didnt had any clue about lucid dreaming. They´ve didn´t known the techniques and so didn´t got very lucid although they´ve got a idea for a very short time that they could be dreaming. Would they had known these techniques like RC´s then they´ve had used it and made it a real lucid dream. So the LuCiD scale would be much higher (on the amount of a normal lucid dream). This is how ive understand dr. voss´s statement. I hope i was able to explain it properly. Sorry for my poor english, i´m from germany.  :smiley:

----------


## Highlander

Read this: 
https://luciddreamart.wordpress.com/...-p-n-junction/





> A consumer version will come in some days:



Seriously... ?





> Ive ordered one and im very excited after jeffs report. One thing i dont really like is the subsription model. But if it really works then its the best thing since sliced bread. You can read on the website that you just could order the beta-prototype till the 15th october. But because some Paypal-problem they´ve prolonged the pre-order period.



Q: Can any product achieve 99% lucidity?
A: No.

Seems like a pipe dream to me. A total sham.





> This is how i understand dr. voss´s statement: The low LuCiD scale just has something to do with the technique. It seems that you aren´t so lucid with the DILD technique at the beginning as with the techniques WILD and MILD. The 40hz-stimulated LD´s are simular with the DILD lucid dreams, so you can compare in this case DILD with WILD or MILD. While youre fully lucid at the beginning of a WILD or MILD LD, on a DILD LD you have to get a awareness with dreamsigns and have to intensify it with some techniques like reality checks and whatnot. But in this study they´ve used subjects who didnt had any clue about lucid dreaming. They´ve didn´t known the techniques and so didn´t got very lucid although they´ve got a idea for a very short time that they could be dreaming. Would they had known these techniques like RC´s then they´ve had used it and made it a real lucid dream. So the LuCiD scale would be much higher (on the amount of a normal lucid dream). This is how ive understand dr. voss´s statement. I hope i was able to explain it properly. Sorry for my poor english, i´m from germany.



Lucid scale or not, Voss got data under laboratory conditions which is more than I can say for luciding.

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> Hey,
> 
> thats very awesome what jeffg archieved. Did "michael" already tried it out and has an experience report? A consumer version will come in some days:
> 
> _*As per DV rules, commercial link to product discussed removed*_
> 
> Ive ordered one and im very excited after jeffs report. One thing i dont really like is the subsription model. But if it really works then its the best thing since sliced bread. You can read on the website that you just could order the beta-prototype till the 15th october. But because some Paypal-problem they´ve prolonged the pre-order period.
> 
> This is how i understand dr. voss´s statement: The low LuCiD scale just has something to do with the technique. It seems that you aren´t so lucid with the DILD technique at the beginning as with the techniques WILD and MILD. The 40hz-stimulated LD´s are simular with the DILD lucid dreams, so you can compare in this case DILD with WILD or MILD. While youre fully lucid at the beginning of a WILD or MILD LD, on a DILD LD you have to get a awareness with dreamsigns and have to intensify it with some techniques like reality checks and whatnot. But in this study they´ve used subjects who didnt had any clue about lucid dreaming. They´ve didn´t known the techniques and so didn´t got very lucid although they´ve got a idea for a very short time that they could be dreaming. Would they had known these techniques like RC´s then they´ve had used it and made it a real lucid dream. So the LuCiD scale would be much higher (on the amount of a normal lucid dream). This is how ive understand dr. voss´s statement. I hope i was able to explain it properly. Sorry for my poor english, i´m from germany.



I don't like their subscription system...
Hopefully somebody else is going to do tDCS Machine yet without subscriptions   ::-P: 
(Knowing the world there will be some software modifications downloadable like they did with iphone jailbreak?)

----------


## thewolf16

It has to be tacs. Tdcs uses direct current and tacs alternating current. Direct current doesn´t have a frequency (so it has 0Hz) so it cant apply a frequency to the brain.

----------


## SearcherTMR

Wow! I was offline for a few days and the thread got alive again! 
So, to sum things up a bit, appart from jeffg and Michael (and possibly many others) trying solo experimets, we have LucidSage working on a comercial device (working on safety issues at the moment), the oneirics team promising similar work in the future and the Luciding team having the decive ready and shipping in a few days...or are they???
Well, the whole thing is very-very suspicius in my view and similar in some ways to the Luci fraud, as Highlander suggested in his link..
Take jeffg for example. He posted clear photos of his assembled device as well as the Lucidscribe recordins.
The Luciding team makes BIG claims while posting nothing convincing...
The "devices" on their heads, are different sizes on different photos (!), worn differently, and seem like empty-foam models to me... the very few making-of photos seem rather fake..
The CGI poster-images are unrealistic, to say the least, regarding both size and design and when someone asked where are the sensors, they replied: hidden in the head band....  as for evidence of their claims or details on their method...nothing...
The subscription model (pay every month to have dreams... ) is obviusly also a bad idea - their reasoning is that price would be much higher for a single purchase and subcriptions will provide them guaranteed feedback to get ready for their Kickstarter campain. 
On top of that, there is their paypal issue - i guess paypal can spot frauds easily...
On the other hand, they did have a stand at the IDCEE exhibition and they give away their names and details, sth a fraud company usually does not do... I quess we will have to wait a few more days for their customers feedback - thewolf16, please post some photos if you actually receive a device!!




> Q: Can any product achieve 99% lucidity?
> A: No.



Well I  personally want to believe that yes... I just dont know if the time has come yet for that. There is jeffg that claimed almost 100% success rate, and I pesonally believed him more than the Luiciding team and their claims, as he has posted more convincing evidence than they have... he has buid a working device for start!

P.s. Michael has just posted photos of his setup.

----------


## thewolf16

I will post pictures and a review as soon as i will receive my Luciding Headband.  :smiley:

----------


## thewolf16

You can see new pictures of the prototypes on facebook now.  :smiley:

----------


## SearcherTMR

> You can see new pictures of the prototypes on facebook now.



Hi, I have just seen the photos, they are way better than their previous ones. Seems they have made real devices after all. Good for you!

----------


## Highlander

> You can see new pictures of the prototypes on facebook now.



I'm a bit baffled by the electrode positioning in relation to the standard 10-20 montage. It looks like some vain attempt at Fp1 and Fp2 (?) although the reference(s) are wrong.

Example A
Example B

Compare this with the montage used by Ursula Voss, et al:
Montage and Stimulation Potentials : Induction of self awareness in dreams through frontal low current stimulation of gamma activity : Nature Neuroscience : Nature Publishing Group

----------


## SearcherTMR

> I'm a bit baffled by the electrode positioning



Hi, 
I agree but this is only one of the many problems with these images. 
The first models are just rubber bands with battery cases and wires... 
How can these ever be working models?
As for the electrode placement, they have it different in almost every photo.
But again Jeffg had excellent results using similar placement with the pictures and not with drVoss (he has shared a diagram with three electrodes, all in the forehead). So, I don't really know if drVoss configuration is even necessary for a Succesful setup!

----------


## thewolf16

What do you mean with FP1 and FP2? 

I think SearcherTMR is right. You just want to stimulate the "prefrontal cortex" (for the consciousness) and not the "parieto-occipital cortex" (for the intelligence) so i think Dr. Voss´s setup isn´t necessary. When Jeff´s setup is working why shouldn´t it with Luciding?

----------


## MisakaMikoto

Awww... After seeing this i want this device so badly  :armflap: 
Shame i won't probably have money for subscriptions n' stuff

Hopefully somebody will publish tACS LDs with no subscription soon soon  ::D:

----------


## SearcherTMR

> Awww... After seeing this i want this device so badly 
> Shame i won't probably have money for subscriptions n' stuff
> 
> Hopefully somebody will publish tACS LDs with no subscription soon soon



Hi Misaka. 
A few days ago, I had an idea: I think I know how to make a DIY tACS device for less than 20€ and of course without subscriptions and stuff (provided you have an iOS or Android device)! 
But first, I am going to test my idea for the next days and if results are positive, I will give the trick away! ...and I think it will be big news! Hope it will work!

----------


## Highlander

> I think SearcherTMR is right. You just want to stimulate the "prefrontal cortex" (for the consciousness) and not the "parieto-occipital cortex" (for the intelligence) so *i think Dr. Voss´s setup isn´t necessary.*



This is what the thread is about.





> When Jeff´s setup is working why shouldn´t it with Luciding?



Because Jeff is honest, upfront and has shared his results unlike luciding!

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## thewolf16

I meant with "Dr. Voss´s setup isn´t necessary" the both electrodes behind the ears. 

Luciding is honest too. Ive got an answer for every question. And in fact, Jeff didn´t shared more than Luciding. Only time will tell if it really works . I will write some review of Luciding and everyone who want can read it. I hate it when somebody badmouth something as a matter of principle. Be more open-minded. I wonder that you believe in lucid dreaming with your limited point of view.

----------


## SearcherTMR

> This is what the thread is about.



The thread is about the article and it's implications.
 This does not mean the article is the absolute truth! Beeing an Orthopaedic surgeon myself, I know that publishing in a prestigious journal does not nececcarily mean the article is honest or even correct in its conclusions. An in this thread the article and it's consequences faced enough criticism already.... why not electrode placement?





> Because Jeff is honest, upfront and has shared his results unlike luciding!



I agree that Jeff seems more honest in every way - from the devices he constructed and shared, to the EEG recordings, to his statistics and results. Luciding had shared basically nothing before the recent challenging - they did answer all questions but in a vague and general way...
Nevertheless, the last pics they shared seem to suggest that they have done their homework (in contrast the LUCI fraud creators had never build any prototypes), so I suggest it is best to wait for their customers feedback before concluding that they are fraudulent!

----------


## Highlander

> Luciding is honest too.



Just like Genosans!





> I hate it when somebody badmouth something as a matter of principle. Be more open-minded. I wonder that you believe in lucid dreaming with your limited point of view.



I also hate seeing people being given false hope and being ripped off in the process.

----------


## SearcherTMR

> Hi SearcherTMR
> The setup works great now and I have been fine tuning the lucid dream triggering down to almost 100% strike rate using the WBTB method



Hi Jeff. I have finally decided to build a similar device myself - cause I didn't have any other Lucids after my initial success with SSILD...
Since you are the only one that had documented success with tACS (Michael has not replicated your results yet), I would like to ask you a few things, if you are kind enough to answer:
1. What was your tACS electrodes placement? Did you use 2 or 4 like drVoss? Did the polarity matter?
2. How strong was the subjective feeling if you triggered tACS while awake? Was it barely noticeable, or was it quite strong and just bearable?
3. What did you change that made the 70% success rate become almost 100% ? Duration of the tACS, intensity or placement of the electrodes, or sth else?
4. Appart from the 40hz, what other setting are important? I know there are TENS and EMS modes on these devices. Is one better than the other?
5. The lucidscribe is running on a laptop PC or an android Device with USB port? If on a PC, isn't it noisy to sleep beside it?
Thank you in advance for your time!

----------


## thewolf16

@Highlander

Either it works or it doesn´t. I´m here to find it out. I don´t know it either for 100% but it sounds to plausible to be a fake. But when it´s working the sceptics will say: "He is lying." But it makes no difference to me. You will get a honest review with dream reports from me. When it´s not working i will say that too.

Why shouldn´t it working? You see on the prototype pictures a ARM-embedded Board, Neurosky EEG-Asic and electrodes. I can´t say for sure that it will work but i´m optimistic because of Jeff´s reports and Dr. Voss´s work. A healthy scepticism is good but to write something completly off is kinda ignorant.

I´ve already stated my point of view so i will give it up and my next posts will be the reviews.

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## marc119

The DIY device sounds really interesting, but the price is going to be much higher. 

An EEG is expensive, same thing about tacs. No way to finance such a device with less than 20. But keep us informed please  :smiley:

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## SearcherTMR

> The DIY device sounds really interesting, but the price is going to be much higher. 
> 
> An EEG is expensive, same thing about tacs. No way to finance such a device with less than 20€. But keep us informed please



Hi Marc.
I will not use EEG or a dedicated tACS device - I know that for less than 20€ you cannot get either. 
REM detection will be acomplished with my iphone (DreamZ app) as in the past - this was never the problem. The thing is how to convert a 40hz audio signal (that the iphone will play during REM) into electric current. Jeff used EMS devices (that are not dedicated tACS devices) with success - the upixie can even convert a 40hz audio signal to EMS but is 100€ and needs a PC to connect to. Cheap EMS devices start on Aliexpress at 8€ but their frequency is not adjustable (no 40hz). Can you connect the dots?
If I am successfull, I will share the whole setup!

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> Hi Marc.
> I will not use EEG or a dedicated tACS device - I know that for less than 20€ you cannot get either. 
> REM detection will be acomplished with my iphone (DreamZ app) as in the past - this was never the problem. The thing is how to convert a 40hz audio signal (that the iphone will play during REM) into electric current. Jeff used EMS devices (that are not dedicated tACS devices) with success - the upixie can even convert a 40hz audio signal to EMS but is 100€ and needs a PC to connect to. Cheap EMS devices start on Aliexpress at 8€ but their frequency is not adjustable (no 40hz). Can you connect the dots?
> If I am successfull, I will share the whole setup!



You don't need EEG either but that would be the case if you would use WBTB instead  ::yeah:: 
Like that:
1. Wake up after 6 - 8 hours of sleep
2. Turn on tACS and use some kind of relay to make it activate 5 - 15 minutes later
3. Fall asleep quickly
4. High chance that tACS will activate while your in Dream World...

----------


## NyxCC

Have you guys wondered or experimented what would be the effect if stimulation occurs at a random time, which is not REM? Would one become lucid then? 

Also, as Misaka mentioned you can time the stimulation (which is recommended anyways) to occur after enough sleep, at which time REM cycles are closely packed. Therefore, no REM detection would be required.

----------


## SearcherTMR

> Have you guys wondered or experimented what would be the effect if stimulation occurs at a random time, which is not REM? Would one become lucid then?



Did not get that. Why would you want a stimulation during non-REM? tACS is supposed to raise awareness and convert a normal dream to a lucid one - not start one out of non-REM sleep...
Is that even possible?





> Also, as Misaka mentioned you can time the stimulation (which is recommended anyways) to occur after enough sleep, at which time REM cycles are closely packed. Therefore, no REM detection would be required.



Ok, this is another way this can work but detecting REM and triggering only during REM gives you more reliable results -- at least that is the theory if I am not wrong. And REM detection with an app has proven quite easy and reliable in my experience! (I also have the REM-dreamer mask but it is very uncomfortable to sleep with )

----------


## NyxCC

> Did not get that. Why would you want a stimulation during non-REM? tACS is supposed to raise awareness and convert a normal dream to a lucid one - not start one out of non-REM sleep...



Sure, it's possible to be lucid during different sleep phases including NREM. Some even believe that we go through a short phase of NREM when wilding. So, since it is possible, I was wondering if someone has tried stimulation at different times. I am curious whether this would lead to lucidity as well. Most subjects in the original study had no? ld experience, but we here have some experience. If NREM stimulation results in a NREM ld, perhaps an experienced lder could wait it out or even stimulate REM, the way we wait for a new scene to form or actively participate in its creation when we are in the void...

It would expand the scope of usage and perhaps facilitate the device development? _If_ it works of course. 





> Ok, this is another way this can work but detecting REM and triggering only during REM gives you more reliable results -- at least that is the theory if I am not wrong. And REM detection with an app has proven quite easy and reliable in my experience! (I also have the REM-dreamer mask but it is very uncomfortable to sleep with )



Can you explain how this app actually tracks REM? I understand these things monitor your movement in bed if you use a phone nearby or even a hand device but they know the REM only post factum, after you have moved which means you have woken up. Or is there a different way the app measures it?

----------


## SearcherTMR

> Sure, it's possible to be lucid during different sleep phases including NREM. Some even believe that we go through a short phase of NREM when wilding. So, since it is possible, I was wondering if someone has tried stimulation at different times. I am curious whether this would lead to lucidity as well. Most subjects in the original study had no? ld experience, but we here have some experience. If NREM stimulation results in a NREM ld, perhaps an experienced lder could wait it out or even stimulate REM, the way we wait for a new scene to form or actively participate in its creation when we are in the void...



Thanks a lot NyxCC!
I didn't know all that - or maybe I once did, but I had forgotten...
So... Why not try it? This makes things even easier! The cheapest TENS device with frequency settings (that can be set to 40 Hz) that I have found starts at 15€ (TENS 3000). All you need to do is tigger it with a time delay relay (~5€)... and there you go! Wow! It is so cheap and easy to do, that I hope many others (appart from me) will try and report!  ::santa:: 






> Can you explain how this app actually tracks REM? I understand these things monitor your movement in bed if you use a phone nearby or even a hand device but they know the REM only post factum, after you have moved which means you have woken up. Or is there a different way the app measures it?



No, this is the way they track sleep stages - with the buit-in accelerometer. The process is called actigraphy and there are also dedicated devices called actigraphs or actimetry sensors. The idea is to not just monitor movement in real time and tell the sleep stage, but actually throu complex algorithms and statistics of normal sleep patterns, to GUESS at what sleep stage you are in. So, you are right, it cannot tell for sure that you are in REM (although in rem you have muscle contractions - so there might be some real-time indication when worn at wrist). It only guesses from all the sleep data - after some nights of calibration, the sleep phase you are in. Nevertheless, for me it works fine. I have been using it a lot and many times the audio cues were quite loud. Each and very time I was woken by a cue, I woke from a dream, meaning I was in REM. Anyway, if we can be lucid in Non-REM sleep, maybe we don't need all of these after all!  :Cheeky:

----------


## NyxCC

Awesome, this will help build a simple device and more experiments could be run.  :smiley:  If one sets the timer to after couple of hours sleep, it can hit a shorter than the initial NREM and if that triggers lucidity the lder would try to act from there. Or it could still hit REM which is taking a larger portion of the sleep cycle, which is perfect as well. 

Thanks for the app explanation and best of luck with your experiments.

----------


## marc119

> Hi Marc.
> I will not use EEG or a dedicated tACS device - I know that for less than 20€ you cannot get either. 
> REM detection will be acomplished with my iphone (DreamZ app) as in the past - this was never the problem. The thing is how to convert a 40hz audio signal (that the iphone will play during REM) into electric current. Jeff used EMS devices (that are not dedicated tACS devices) with success - the upixie can even convert a 40hz audio signal to EMS but is 100€ and needs a PC to connect to. Cheap EMS devices start on Aliexpress at 8€ but their frequency is not adjustable (no 40hz). Can you connect the dots?
> If I am successfull, I will share the whole setup!



Well that could work. Maybe the REM detection is not as accurate as an EEG, but this doesn't mean that it doesn't have to work, right?  :smiley: 

Keep up your good work and please post your progress ^^

btw: Any chance to use an android device instead of iOS?

----------


## thewolf16

Please, please don´t use TENS. It´s to dangerous because it´s way to strong (5-60 mA instead of 0.25 mA). Also this current isn´t controllable while you´re sleeping. 

Don´t try this anything in this way when you don´t know what you are doing. You can cook your brain.

----------


## marc119

Can you explain this in more detail, wolf?

I found this about the TENS 3000:





> Output Power 	0-80 mA



So it seems to be adjustable (?)

----------


## thewolf16

Yes it´s adjustable but in too high steps (so your smallest current is 1 mA).

----------


## SearcherTMR

> Any chance to use an android device instead of iOS?



Of course. Same thing. The android app has the uniquely original name of " lucid Dreaming App"  :smiley: 
It detects REM and can play any audio file on your device.





> Please, please don´t use TENS. It´s to dangerous because it´s way to strong (5-60 mA instead of 0.25 mA).



Ok. Let's make a few things clear: a TENS device and an EMS device is exactly the same device - actually most are both. The only difference is in the settings. In TENS settings, frequency and intensity are calibrated for nerve stimulation and pain relief. In EMS settings, all parameters are calibrated for muscle stimulation and contraction. Same device, same signal, different settings... Got that? So, devices with adjustable settings can do both. Now, usually TENS settings are the light ones and produce a mild tingling sensation (are basically absolutely safe) , while EMS are typically stronger for muscle contractures. I have a TENS device (as well as an EMS one) and let me tell you what happens: when the TENS is placed over a muscle and high intensity is selected....you get muscle contractures!  ::-P: 
When I stick the TENS electrodes on my forehead, I just get a tingling sensation - no harm for 8 mins that I tried....
So, in this post you say that TENS gives 5-60mA (and this is strong), and in your next post you say 1mA (!!) - and is strong again. Let me remind you that Jeff used 2mA and instead of burning his brain, he just got lucid! ::D: 






> Also this current isn´t controllable while you´re sleeping.



Do you really think that the Luciding current will be controllable while you sleep???? 
Actually, the device I suggested, comes with a safety amplitude cap to prevent accidental knob movement during sleep. The problem with the device that I noticed after my post is that it is difficult to set to 40 Hz - you have to guess.
image.jpg
 So, I have just ordered a more precise one (innoTENS-sd) as well as a time delay relay (Cycle Timer Module PLC).





> Don´t try this anything in this way when you don´t know what you are doing. You can cook your brain.



If you want my opinion, the ones that really don't know what they are doing, are the Luciding kids - in a recent post in their Facebook page, they showed an EOG and said it was an EEG!! Appart from that, it was so noisy you could barely see a signal...and from that they will make conclusions!
I would personally never put their device on - if they ever sent one. That, would be dangerous!
If I was you, I would ask for a refund right away and either make a device myself or wait for the next commercial device from a more reliable team.

----------


## Highlander

To be fair, Wolf is referring to the figure that Voss, et al used.

"tACS. Low-intensity sinusoidal alternating current (*250 μA peak to peak*) was applied through a battery-operated CE-certified stimulator (NeuroConn Stimulator Plus) to induce frequency-specific alterations of the EEG. Specifically, four electrodes (3.5 × 4 cm2, connected pair-wise) were attached to the scalp at positions close to F3 and F4 and over the mastoids close to TP9 and TP10 (Supplementary Fig. 2a–c), resulting in a maximum current density of
18 μA cm–2 at the scalp. Current flow therefore alternated bilaterally between frontal and temporal positions. *Current strength was chosen well below sensory and below phosphene threshold*, and smooth ramp-up/ramp-down phases were used to avoid awakening of the subject."

(Nature Neuroscience - doi:10.1038/nn.3719)

----------


## MisakaMikoto

I'm thinking of buying TENS device from polish site which has those features:
- Allow stimulation from 0 mA to 60 mA 
- Allow Hz choice of 2 - 120 
- μs which seems to be unchangable set at 250
- Four electrodes at 5cmx5cm size
- Timer option (Auto shutdown ability from 5 - 99 minutes?)
Since i have no rem detection i'm thinking of this pattern:
1. Wake up after 5 - 7 hours of sleep
2. Setup device (40 Hz || 2 mA)
3. Set time of stimulation to 10 - 20 minutes.
4. Fall asleep fast
5. Hope that stimulation will still work when i'il hit rem phase
6. Lucid?

What do you guys think?
Should i invest in it or is it missing some important stuff that i'm not seeing  ::yeah:: ?

*Edit:*

It's called also SaneoTENS...

----------


## SearcherTMR

> To be fair, Wolf is referring to the figure that Voss, et al used.
> "tACS. Low-intensity sinusoidal alternating current (*250 μA peak to peak*) was applied



That is what Voss used (0,25mA), not the safety limit! 
Jeff used 2mA and had better results.
image.jpg 
Michael from Lucidscribe has also set his device at 2mA.
Anyway, if the lower amplitude of a device seems irritating enough, the solution is simple: add a resistor (~1kΩ) in series, and choose a comfortable setting (amplitude drops this way).





> What do you guys think?



No. Not good. The device has 2 frequency ranges, 1-20 and 50-100 Hz. 40 Hz is missing!
The method you suggest for using it is not good either. You will probable not be able to sleep with the stimulation on. You have to activate it later - during REM or experimentally at a random time after WBTB. Activation during REM requires a complicated setup. The easy and cheap way is to randomly activate the stimulation with a time delay relay and hope that it hits REM - chances are that it will most of the time after WBTB.

----------


## SearcherTMR

So... I said I had an idea about how to make a DIY tACS device for less than 20. 
I tried it and it didn't work... 
Nevertheless, I will share the idea as it leads to another one that will almost certainly work, but is not that cheap and not that easy... nevertheless, it is a possible setup.
The concept was this: I already owned a TENS device with a few presets but not 40hz capability (similar devices can be purchased for 8 -15). What I would do is this: I would use my iphone app DreamZ to detect REM sleep and play a 40hz audio file (at max volume). The audio signal would be fed to a small motor (I used one from a toy RC helicopter) that would oscillate.  I would then create an oscillating relay by attaching wires to the side and the axis of the motor (they would make contact and separate 40 times/sec). All I needed to do then was connect the TENS Device (set to a seemingly continuous mode) through my home-made oscillating relay and a 40hz stimulus would be delivered during REM sleep! 

newimage1.jpg

Unfortunately, while the oscillating relay worked just fine (eg when connecting a LED light, it flashed rapidly), when the TENS device was connected, it gave out bursts of non-periodic, irregular stimulations..  ::blue:: 
I really don't know exactly why, but I suspect that the difference between the stimulation frequency and the relay frequency resulted in the perceived bursts of current.
So, is there a way to use the app and the audio signal to trigger a TENS - EMS device? Yes, there is but to do that:
1. You need a device capable of generating a 40 Hz pulse (more expensive) 
2. You need to rectify and amplify the audio signal before feeding it to a relay - and it is not that easy. However it can be done. So you hook up the EMS device to the relay that is fed with the audio signal from the app and there you go. 
There are also other ways to do the same thing, eg using the audio signal as a pulse width modulation to activate a Servo (that you modify to act as a relay). 
On the other hand, there is the easy - but not so reliable - method of just time-delaying the signal and hoping to hit REM, or perhaps (as suggested by NyxCC) raising awareness during non-REM , and actively initiating the REM state (i.e. a Lucid dream). ::wink::

----------


## Highlander

> That is what Voss used (0,25mA), not the safety limit!



I never said it was.





> The easy and cheap way is to randomly activate the stimulation with a time delay relay and hope that it hits REM - chances are that it will most of the time after WBTB.



I totally understand the idea of doing this where you use the app for REM detection and the relay as an isolating (dc) switch. But...





> Unfortunately, while the oscillating relay worked just fine (eg when connecting a LED light, it flashed rapidly), when the TENS device was connected, it gave out bursts of non-periodic, irregular stimulations.. 
> _I really don't know exactly why_, but I suspect that the difference between the stimulation frequency and the relay frequency resulted in the perceived bursts of current.



You do not need to make the relay 'oscillate'. It needs to activate and stay *'on'* (for your chosen duration.)
Refer to your question 2. which solves the problem.

This duration is the length of the audio track (provided there is no noise) played.
Any audio signal should do for your requirement provided the volume is reasonable to drive the relay circuit.





> 1. You need a device capable of generating a 40 Hz pulse (more expensive)



For a standalone device you could also use a simple 555 timer IC for your pulses with the correct resistor values for 40 hz, or something along the lines of a Wien bridge-type idea using op-amps if you wanted sine wave output.

You can make a 40 hz sine wave (or square wave if you want) mp3 file using Audacity software.
Then process that as an electrical signal in its own right via an appropriate isolation/matching/filter/limiter stage(s) using op-amps, etc. rather than relying on that slave signal to switch a tens machine on and off.

The main problem is not mainly one of expense but to have a reliable and safe design which includes your supply, electrodes, etc.

----------


## SearcherTMR

> I never said it was.



I know. Somebody else did.





> You do not need to make the relay 'oscillate'. It needs to activate and stay *'on'* (for your chosen duration.)
> Refer to your question 2. which solves the problem.



I needed the relay to oscillate, in order to get a 40hz signal out of a device that didnt have it. I would want it to stay ON if i had a gamma enabled device (I will in a few days).
When you say my question 2, you mean the answers to this question?





> For a standalone device you could also use a simple 555 timer IC for your pulses with the correct resistor values for 40 hz, or something along the lines of a Wien bridge-type idea using op-amps if you wanted sine wave output.



You mean make my own device. I am afraid that my knowledge in electronics is fairly limited. If I need sth and I find a clear and easy circuit diagram, I can assemble it. But improvise with electronics...no.





> You can make a 40 hz sine wave (or square wave if you want) mp3 file using Audacity software.
> Then process that as an electrical signal in its own right via an appropriate isolation/matching/filter/limiter stage(s) using op-amps, etc. rather than relying on that slave signal to switch a tens machine on and off.



Yep! That was the first thing in my mind! I researched for ways to accomplish this, but when i found this patent, I realized that the complexity of the project was way too high for me...





> The main problem is not mainly one of expense but to have a reliable and safe design which includes your supply, electrodes, etc.



Yes, I agree. Safety is a priority, and if you can build a reliable device, that would be great. But I was pretty sure that no harm to a healthy brain could happen with such small currents (provided one has no history of seizures of any kind). So I went for the easiest - and hopefully cheapest - conscept that I could think of.
Anyway, thanks you for your advice and ideas. I really appreciate it!

----------


## Highlander

> I needed the relay to oscillate, in order to get a 40hz signal out of a device that didnt have it. I would want it to stay ON if i had a gamma enabled device (I will in a few days).



I see now. I got confused when the TENS device was mentioned so I understand where you are coming from now.
I thought you meant switching the supply input to the device initially.

If I'm right then you basically tried to switch or 'chop' the _output_ 'continuous' mode (dc?) signal of your first original Tens device (the one you cannot get 40 hz on very well due to the control settings,) in order to get your final 40 hz pulses.

I think the motor/relay wire contacts would have a reliability issue with all the switching, plus I wonder if the actual motor rotation wire connection switching would be less than 40 hz (?) in that arrangement when you factor in the time of the slight rotations relative to contact made per second.

You might get awoken by motor/relay buzz plus you would need a small (inexpensive) flyback diode across each of the motor/relay inputs to stop voltage spikes which can cause damage.

If you ever intended to switch much higher voltages then a small suppressor capacitor might be needed to reduce RFI to other nearby electronic equipment.

It is an interesting idea however.

You could however use a transistor arrangement to switch a relay which is commonplace. I think we have already touched on this previous.
Transistor switching without a relay is reliable, but then you would definitely have to add in some form of isolation (like opto isolators) to be on the safe side.

For you, it might be better going to a local college, lab, or TV repair place and get them to 'scope the output for 40 hz whilst moving that logarithmic control dial on your original tens device between the other frequency settings.
When you are happy then simply add a mark, or better, some loctite/threadlock so the control doesn't get knocked.
You could also test for output, purity, and any frequency drift too.

Mind you you did say you ordered another one. Even so it is always wise to do calibration checks, etc.





> I would want it to stay ON if i had a gamma enabled device (I will in a few days).
> When you say my question 2, you mean the answers to this question?



Yes, _in theory_. Do a trial/test on an *old* phone which plays mp3 files at a similar level before trying on your really expensive i-'whatever' first.
Do not have a mains charging adapter connected to the phone _under any circumstances_ if you do ever decide to do a full 'live' test where you are wired up. Similarly with a laptop. Run them only on batteries to be safer.

Thanks for the patent link - it is quite interesting. I have only had a quick mull over the pdf though.





> Anyway, thanks you for your advice and ideas. I really appreciate it!



No problem. I'm tempted myself!

Be careful as cheapest isn't always the best. Even so there are some expensive gimmicks out there *cough_ing_* so beware, be safe, and good luck!

----------


## SearcherTMR

> If I'm right then you basically tried to switch or 'chop' the _output_ 'continuous' mode (dc?) signal of your first original Tens device (the one you cannot get 40 hz on very well due to the control settings,) in order to get your final 40 hz pulses.



Yes. As for the continuous mode...the device does not have a knob. Just 3 presets (one pulsating and two with constant signal - don't know the frequency).





> I think the motor/relay wire contacts would have a reliability issue with all the switching, plus I wonder if the actual motor rotation wire connection switching would be less than 40 hz (?) in that arrangement when you factor in the time of the slight rotations relative to contact made per second.



I agree that it is not a reliable system. I hadn't thought of the possibility that the frequency could actually be less than 40hz. I suppose you are right and I should have checked in some lab - didn't do that.





> You could however use a transistor arrangement to switch a relay which is commonplace. I think we have already touched on this previous.
> Transistor switching without a relay is reliable, but then you would definitely have to add in some form of isolation (like opto isolators) to be on the safe side.



I hadn't thought of that either - using a transistor as an oscilating relay (but I suppose that this setup would not deliver a 40hz current either). The interesting use of a tranzistor however, is to activate a relay that will stay ON (and trigger a 40hz enabled EMS or TENS) and basically this is the easy way for anyone that wants  to make a fully functional DIY tACS device. So the setup goes like this:
image.jpg
Similar configurations can also be made with other (and more accurate) REM detection hardware like the REM dreamer or the Aurora. 
On the other hand, there is also the kind of setup that Jeff used, utilizing a PC, an arduino board and an overall more sophisticated - and accurate - setup!
One question for Highlander (or anyone that can help): my plan for now, is to just activate the device using a time delay relay (Cycle Timer Module PLC) after some set time :
image.jpg
 Do I need to use a flyback diode to prevent a current spike at activation? If so, can you please tell me if any diode will do and how to connect it? 
Also, is there a possibility to use some kind of solid state time delay relay, so to be silent (no click)?

----------


## Highlander

> Do I need to use a flyback diode to prevent a current spike at activation? If so, can you please tell me if any diode will do and how to connect it?



Component D2 in your schematic is an example of a 'flyback' diode. It is usually only a consideration if you are building a circuit from scratch, as a modular relay board manufacturer would have already considered this along with other features normally.





> Also, is there a possibility to use some kind of solid state time delay relay, so to be silent (no click)?



The 'click'... epoch (in seconds)... 'unclick' shouldn't cause a noise issue or problem. I only mentioned it previously as I think your previous circuit caused motor and relay 'buzz' due to the fast switching which could have woken you up.

I notice from your diagrams that you are actually switching the _output_ of the TENS device which raises major safety issues: 

There is still a live AC signal (40 hz) going to the other electrode unless that is the reference?

Also relays have been known to 'stick' in some cases as they are mechanical; depending on other factors like higher voltage, current, etc.
Over time you would also get oxidization on the contacts which would cause signal noise, or at worst intermittent connection to the electrode circuit.

You would also run the batteries out quicker on your tens device as it would be powered up (on) throughout your sleep period.

I would have thought about using the relay to actually switch on/power up the tens unit itself for your chosen time length by connecting it up on the battery input.

You might want to consider some form of current limiting too.

----------


## SearcherTMR

> Component D2 in your schematic is an example of a 'flyback' diode. It is usually only a consideration if you are building a circuit from scratch, as a modular relay board manufacturer would have already considered this along with other features normally.



Thanks. 





> The 'click'... epoch (in seconds)... 'unclick' shouldn't cause a noise issue or problem. I only mentioned it previously as I think your previous circuit caused motor and relay 'buzz' due to the fast switching which could have woken you up.



I have some relays, and the clicking sound is quite noticeable - my motor-relay does also make a buzzing sound but it is not loud. Anyway, I will wait for the time delay relay and we'll see.





> I notice from your diagrams that you are actually switching the _output_ of the TENS device which raises major safety issues:



Thanks for the warnings. My current tens device does not hold the setting - if I disconnect the battery, it resets. So, I will wait for the new device. If it holds the settings and continuous the same stimulation (40hz etch), I will do it the way you suggest - it makes perfect sense. 






> There is still a live AC signal (40 hz) going to the other electrode unless that is the reference?



In my current configuration when the circuit is interrupted, the signal is cut in both electrodes - I don't know about the new device, but I hope I will be able to interrupt the battery wires, so no such concern.
Thanks again!  :;-):

----------


## MisakaMikoto

Hi People  ::yeah:: 
Luciding Electronics is sending out devices quite soon (This Tuesday-Thursday?).
We are going to be able to finally hear opinions about devices and see if 40 Hz Stimulation is worth it





And on side note i belive their device is using 1 mA of Stimulation
One of pictures they've uploaded had amperometer which displayed value of 1

*Edit:*

And to be honest they might be correct about guaranteed lucid dreams
If Dr. Voss. used 0.25mA and results were 77.7% then applying instead 1 mA could give us probably 100% lucid dream chance as long as dream occurs  :tongue2: 
Jeff himself had though not so 100% yet as he changed electrodes and their position i think he gained better results?
So they might use some tricky position of electric stimulation to attain such success rate perhaps.

----------


## FryingMan

> Hi People 
> Luciding Electronics is sending out devices quite soon (This Tuesday-Thursday?).
> We are going to be able to finally hear opinions about devices and see if 40 Hz Stimulation is worth it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And on side note i belive their device is using 1 mA of Stimulation
> ...



I'll reserve judgement until some real world results come in showing consistent (over time, months at least) results.  Everyone familiar with LDing knows and has perhaps even experienced The excitement placebo LDs from trying something new.  It's nice to see that they have real devices, though, at least.  Guaranteed lucid dreams?  As a service?  So much so questionable about that.  And with the haste with which thoses initial devices were put together, I wouldn't want those electrodes anywhere near my head.  This field is clearly in its infancy, but it's good to see the activity.

----------


## Highlander

> And on side note i belive their device is using 1 mA of Stimulation
> One of pictures they've uploaded had amperometer which displayed value of 1



1 what?

The multimeter shown in the photo is on 'continuity' mode which is for checking short circuits and diode polarity checks.

There is *no* setting on the dial for alternating (AC) current, only DC which is in the 3 'o' clock position.

It is _not_ reading current, whether AC or DC.

----------


## ATA

Hi all im Petr Navratil 
Im also one of winners of luciding contest and post results of testing when device arrives.

Cheapest way how to bulit tACS is use old Pc speaker like this  and use MP3player or better smartphone witch REM detection as source of audio signal .
Changes to the spekere are easily done and donot require nay knowledge of electronics.
Open the case of speaker 
And find trensformer 
This part transform voltage usualy transform 230V to 9V so about 25x lower it.Power device connceted to head form net is dangerous so we chnge this part for 9V battery as a source.
Now find the wires to the speker ond disconct it rom speker and connect it to the wellow (thinner ones) wires of diconected tranformator , to the other side of trenaformator connect wires to stimulation electrodes (thicker red ones) Tranfromtor in the output of amylifiler is connect in rverse so it increse a voltage witch factor about 25x  max output voltage of my device is about 35V and can give max current about 1,5mA with load similar to electriodes and head resistance. 

THIS DEVICE NOT HAVE ANY SAFETY MEASURES AND CURRENT IS NOT CONSTANT its vary dou the head resitance changes

NEVER TURN ON or OFF AMPYFILER WHEN DEVICE IS CONECTED TO HEAD - capacitor on turn on/off cause current spike

TEST the current and idealy also signal  ( not use more than 3/4 of volume in amplyfiler more dstort the quality of signal )

IF needet use resistor to limit max current , with my type of electrodes is not needet  in worst case scenario is max current still safe .

Tape or hotglue the volume on amplyfiler to prevent acidently changing it .

(i cant post pictures now so i deleted it form post)

Some of my notes about tDCS   brmlab.cz/project/brain_hacking/tdcs    also usable for tACS 
some reserch pappers about LD    brmlab.cz/project/brain_hacking/ld2
add www

----------


## mariblubb

Hei there,

foc.us published their new tCDS Device for preorder a day ago.
The system consists of a headset with two tCDS-Electrodes (99$) and the device emitting the DC (199$). The electrode-headset seems to be a good choice when connected to a tACS Device just like jeff used. According to the site "DIY hackers can find information on the 2.5mm 4 pin wiring scheme in a separate faq [soon probably]". Aside from that, the tDCS device has an open API - that means, that with a proper App and enough money, you could actually buy a commercial DC-Induced Lding System (combined with one of those simple EEGs, such as the muse) already. 
Anyways: jeff, michael, how are you doing so far with your DIY tACS/EEG devices? Is there any chance, you could provide us with a detailed DIY-manual?

Regards
Marius

----------


## ATA

Is too early pick heatset because noone realy knows best electrode configuration and electrode size for LD induction its may take years of testing to find the best one. I prfer more variability allow expedimneting. Also i have bad experinece witch foc.us i when they strating developing first version i write with them about some posible problems and they ingore them.

Also with tACS is posiible use TENS type adhesive electrodes or even EKG adhesive electrodes ( only for advanced users becouse current density si much higher and it need so knowledge to setup it right)
 for haireless areas 
tDCS witch this type of electrodes cause problem becouse of elctrosisis.

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> Hei there,
> 
> foc.us published their new tCDS Device for preorder a day ago.
> The system consists of a headset with two tCDS-Electrodes (99$) and the device emitting the DC (199$). The electrode-headset seems to be a good choice when connected to a tACS Device just like jeff used. According to the site "DIY hackers can find information on the 2.5mm 4 pin wiring scheme in a separate faq [soon probably]". Aside from that, the tDCS device has an open API - that means, that with a proper App and enough money, you could actually buy a commercial DC-Induced Lding System (combined with one of those simple EEGs, such as the muse) already. 
> Anyways: jeff, michael, how are you doing so far with your DIY tACS/EEG devices? Is there any chance, you could provide us with a detailed DIY-manual?
> 
> Regards
> Marius



I'd suggest not to use foc.us devices unless you know what you are doing  ::yeah:: 
People from tDCS Reddit Community warned about foc.us tDCS due to safety issues
- The device behaves unpredictably when its connection to the head is lost
- The foc.us internal electrodes exceed the general safety guidelines for current density at all stimulation levels, a problem which may lead to skin burns
- One guy seems to report passing out due to the device




> So I was the idiot who turned the Focus on before putting it on his head instead of after (and then passing out) but at least we all got a very nice report out of it.



I myself on the other hand plan to modify Luciding device and in result unrestricting it...

----------


## ATA

In next few days i plan do some basic test of my "device" mesure max output current and voltage , test qulity of signal in osciloscope and do basic test of electrodes.
For basic plan use bilateral fronto-temporal configuration  F3-T9 ,F4-T10 (temporal position will be in front of ear below the hairline so it not exactly T9)
Stimulation will have one chnnel source so joinet F3 - F4 ,T9 - T10 wires. Problay try also only F3 - F4 fronto-frontal configuration.

goal is find phosphens treashold , skin feealing treashold , and good currentdenisty treashold for stimulatoin.
Stimulation currentdensity will be probaly  best around 60uA/cm2 but need this test. Is higher than in the study 18uA/cm2 witch seems to me to low but is hard to extrapolate to my size of electrodes they stimulate much larger area witch may be better (hrad to say before many tests).

Becouse wires are joined  it must be consideret  scenario when all current go trhoug only one of electrode so 120uA/cm2 must be safe without phosphenes and any fealing ( in tACS is posiible use even 300uA/cm2 without any problem)  

stimulatin will be 40hz sinus ( 5min + 30s logaritmic ramp up and down ) witch montoring of current changes , and subjectove fealing in and after stimulation ( is only basic during the day in test further test i plan use EEG if will be enough time)

Attachment 7846

To low current of stimulaton  donut cause brain to tune to it but higher dount nesesary meen beter it posible that to strong stimulation be forceful nad limit natural minor changes in gamma rythm and can have edverse efect even to lucidity (only hypothesis)

40 Hz AC stimulation is tot only one i have some ideas to better ones like TDCS witch 40hz pulsed peaks but main problem is i dount have a chnace to test all parametrs by myself and have good resuplt it need at least 20 people to get some good results.

electrodes will by DIY 4cm2 circle made from adhesive-Anti-Scratch-Protectors-Pads with Polyimid resistive(conductive) foil (50um , 100 Ohm/cm2 )
I use ten20 EEG conductive gel on skin clened by  70%isoporopyl acohol pads . Electrodes witch gel are enougt adhesive so i dount need a headset thys type of elctrodes can by also used in hair but is is little bit messy after  :smiley:

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## ATA

F3 finder
clinicalresearcher.org/F3/calculate.php
add www

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## SearcherTMR

Hi everyone!
I have finally received my new TENS device (with 40hz capability), I have made the simple "audio triggered relay" circuit and my whole setup is ready! Everything works fine now - the audio triggers the TENS - and I am ready to test my setup the following nights and report my results - I can't wait to see if it actually works!
This is the final schematic and actual setup - it was quite easy to build:
image.jpg
image.jpg
Fortunately the device - unlike my other TENS device - holds the presets, so the relay could be connected directly to the battery wires.





> Cheapest way how to bulit tACS is use old Pc speaker like this  and use MP3player or better smartphone witch REM detection as source of audio signal .
> Changes to the spekere are easily done and donot require nay knowledge of electronics.



Hi Petr! 
Although your English is hard to read, I was very curious if your simple and cheap setup actually produced a stimulation signal - doing what this patend is supposed to do. So, I build it - it was really easy - and yes, it actually worked!  
image.jpg
I have tested the stimulation from the device on my forearm and controlled the intensity with the phone volume. It actually felt strange - quite different from the TENS signal. It produced a tingling sensation - plus muscle contractures at high intensity. Nevertheless, it was quite painfull and not comfortable - I wouldn't put this on my head.... I believe a real TENS device is MUCH safer and well worth the price - all you have to do is just keep the intensity low!





> Hi People 
> Luciding Electronics is sending out devices quite soon (This Tuesday-Thursday?).



Luciding have already failed 4 deadlines and will probably keep failing them...
If however they send them, it will be interesting to see if they actually do anything - from a video they posted, it seems their electrodes are metallic buttons!  ::alien:: 
image.jpg

----------


## ATA

Max voltage on full volume ( on PC and on amplyfliler) *PC as source of signal only for testing 
Without load (resistor)

40hz         16,7V
1000hz      34,8V 
5000hz      40,8V
some music  20-25V

*voltage is different for various frequencis probably due to transformator characteristic 

Volume on PC 80% and about 20% on amylifiler to get on osciloscope perfect non distorted sinus signal , voltage 10,3V
This voltage 10,3V is max usable voltage without signal distortion for this 40hz signal. (every ampyfiler is diffrent so values only for orientation if enyone plan built this)
With this volume setup 1000hz give 2,75V, and 5000Hz 5V
*test without load 


TEST - 1KOhm load (40Hz signal) 
larger signal distortion max without ditortion voltage 2,5V

TEST - 2KOhm load (40Hz signal)
lower signal distortion max without distortion voltage 7V (without load 10,5V)

TEST - 4,5KOhm load (40Hz signal)
lower signal distortion max without ditortion voltage 10V (without load 11,3V)

TEST electrode resistance 
without gel about 130Ohm

Now i go test current (test on leg)
TENS act differet because of different signal , the PCspeker version can cause pain and muscle contraction in high volume but for  LD aplication the current will be much lower 
Also check if your TENS give 40Hz sinus wave not some other type of wave .

----------


## ATA

Test on leg  output set to 10V (without load) for first test

Electrode 4cm2 polyimide with ten20 eeg conductive gel
Current 1,2mA 
Current density 300uA/cm2 
Fealing slight neadeling pain ,after one min only neadeling without pain 
*position of electrode is not ideal and contact with skin is not 100% i change its position for next test

Test Lowering volume to no fealing state 
Current 0,6mA
Current density 150uA/cm2
Voltage 7,4V
Voltage without load 8,27V

----------


## SearcherTMR

> TENS act differet because of different signal , the PCspeker version can cause pain and muscle contraction in high volume but for  LD aplication the current will be much lower 
> Also check if your TENS give 40Hz sinus wave not some other type of wave .



From the booklet, it seems that it outputs square waves - I have no osciliscope to test myself.

----------


## ATA

Its look like  your TENS use byphasic asimetric rectangular waveform not sinus  with max pulse duration of 300us (0,3ms) you set 200us (0,2ms pulse size)  and 40Hz .
In 40Hz signal  one cycle last 25ms and one phase of it 12,5ms your stimulation last only about 16%(200 from 1250us) of phase and its rectangular pulse.
Your stimulation is very different but still can have some effect its need test with EEG to look to brain synchronization.

Electrodes i assume you use 25cm2 electrodes  your current density will be 40uA/cm2 its 2x more than in the study from my staint point is better .If you plan use 4 alectrodes like in study use bouth channels of TENS device.

Also setup with 1mA steps dont allow more precise setup for comfort or other aplication , elctrode size .
TENS device also not have optipn of ramping my signal use 30s ram in and in and 30s ram down this reduce skin fealing and is not "taht large schock for brainwaves (ramping is from -30db in audio signal)
PcSpeaker vesrion is very simple and is safe anought if know waht you doing main advanatage is i can easily test various types of signal by simply change audio file and i can also try  pulsed DC stimulation (add diode to one output wire) or try very complex waves even stimulation with recorded EEG signal form LD  :smiley:

----------


## SearcherTMR

> Its look like  your TENS use byphasic asimetric rectangular waveform not sinus  with max pulse duration of 300us (0,3ms) you set 200us (0,2ms pulse size)  and 40Hz .
> In 40Hz signal  one cycle last 25ms and one phase of it 12,5ms your stimulation last only about 16%(200 from 1250us) of phase and its rectangular pulse.
> Your stimulation is very different but still can have some effect its need test with EEG to look to brain synchronization.



Thank you for that! 
So, it is better to set the pulse duration to 300us (max) - I think this is what jeff used as well, and this is what I will do!
Testing starts tonight!

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## ATA

Im not sure how TENS controll current in page  they write  mA values and note about 500Ohms load so maybe there is no "online" current control .If it true the mA values on device and actual current trought brain can be VERY different . Probabably much lower .

Can you measurue it ?

----------


## Kaan

Hi guys.
Just registered to DV, I'm the one who kinda brought ATA here by contacting him on FB and showing him this thread.
My electronics memories are far away now (I had been studying electronics for 8 years but  I stoped studies and practice 20 years ago (after Engeneer school)), but I'm very interested about next generation LD devices, like Aurora or electic stimulation  based LD devices.
Thank you,  guys,  for your work, I will read your conversations about luciding, and home made devices as I plan to buy one or to make my own device.
Up to now, I'm still fighting with my 5 year old Rem-Dreamer to have LD (sometimes it work, sometimes not as you guess).
as ATA noticed it on the Luciding FB, someone did some good research about electro stimulation for LD 5 years ago.
Did you guys take a look to this: ?

Edit: 
(I am not allowed to post links for now, I suggest you to do a google research "Method and apparatus for electrically generating signal for inducing lucid dreaming"

----------


## SearcherTMR

> ... the mA values on device and actual current trought brain can be VERY different . Probabably much lower .
> Can you measurue it ?



The booklet says that the intensity is adjustable from 0-80mA at 500Ohms. 
It is adjustable with a knob, so there are no steps - you can set any value and there is no live reading. So, I could not set the device to 2mA as Jeff suggested.
I do have a multimeter however and did some live readings: the actual current is much lower...
I begin to feel the stimulation at 0,5μA (0,0005 mA) and it gets really uncomfortable at 6μA (0,006mA). So, setting the device at 2mA is unrealistic, the actual current is much lower....

----------


## ATA

How to do you mesure it 0,5uA is definitly wrong .

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> How to do you mesure it 0,5uA is definitly wrong .



Agreed, i'm not expert at that kind of stuff yet i'm sure that if it would get really bad at 6μA then actual TENS Devices would be absolute painfest rather than pain relief  :Puppy dog eyes:

----------


## ATA

Try to describe how do you measure it .

Measuring TENS currnet may be problematic and also is the problem with  peak current and effective current . I assume mutimetter mesure effective current (please someone with better knowledge of electronic to veryfi information in this post).

For sinus wave is effective current 1,44x lower than peak current.
So for my 0,6mA stimulation (effective current) will peak current(current when sine wave is on peak) 0,864mA 

For TENS with your setup (200us pulse ,40hz) will be  effective current only 16% of peak current . So of you setup 1mA on device and we assume they mean effective current the max current will be 6,25mA

This still dindt explain your measurment values is very important  how do you prepare your skin and what eletrodes are use. Important is current density. 1mA of stimulation from 25cm2 lectrode will have current desity 40uA/cm2 and will be ok but if you use neadle like electrode or wire  the current density be far more than 1mA/cm2 and cause pain like hell nad probably also skin burns .

----------


## SearcherTMR

> Try to describe how do you measure it .



My setup was this: I connected the TENS Device to my forehead with square, classic gel electrodes. I connected the multimeter in series in one of the wires and set it to alternating current-Ampere measurement.
 I was also surprised by my measurement, but think that it is correct.
 I also have a conventional amperometer - with needle - that measures 0-10mA. When connecting this in series, the measurement was zero even at the most painful setting I could try...

----------


## ATA

TEST of TENS setup

Test on fingers (thumb - index ) surface about 2cm2  waveform biphasic retangular 200ms pulse 40hz 

2cm2  0,12 mA  no fealing
2cm2  0,20 mA  muscle pulsation

so i get to 60uA/cm2 and no fealing
and to 100uA/cm2 without problem 
*voltage only 3V with load 

TEST on head F3-F4 , electrodes 4cm2
0,25mA ok
0,55mA ok but slight phosphenes , no skin fealing 

62 uA/cm2
137 uA/cm2

If it mesure effective value of current peak current will be 6,25x higher !!!
I mesure it on old analog metter on 0,3mA scale limit it work OK also on 0,6mA scale on 3mA i dont get any response.   

I get 137uA/current density without problem but you measured problemes with current denity 0,02uA/cm2  is  6850x lower than my value .
Possible explanation of different measurmet is your electrodes is very dirty and have non even contact with skin , also TENS can have volatage about 100V in my test was 3V ,another possible cause is multimetter have problems measure this type of very weak signal with this waveform

*if you make new thread please move post there

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 1:20AM
TEST head F3-F4 (40hz 5min with 30s ramp up/down) 4cm2

Max tested current 0,6mA no fealing but visible pohosphnes
Current during test 0,25mA and very slight phosphenes noticable only sometimes
Current go Up in stimulation about 0,1mA i manualy change volume to get stable 0,25mA

Current density 62uA/cm2
I pick for first test frontal stimulation becouse there is larger risk of phosphnes induction.

Subjective fealings: during stimulation normal , after stimultion little bit incerased wakfullnes and elevated endorphines (slight smile)

Info from Subconscious (puerly subjective) :
Intestity of stimulation: stimulation current to strong cuase forced tunning dont allow natural rythm changes , recommended about 38uA/cm2
Stimulation time: too long for this current level , optimal at this currnet level 20s
Electrode position: recommended insted of F4 something like FT8 in foront of ear
Frequency : recommended 37,16Hz
Waveform : no data

TEST2 same only current changed to recommended 0,15mA
small current fluctuation during stimulation 0,13-0,15mA
Current density 37,5uA/cm2

Subjective fealings: during stimulation normal , after only very slight change in wakefullnes+ (time to go sleep is 1:15AM here )

Info from Subconscious (puerly subjective) :
Intestity of stimulation: OK
Stimulation time: OK can be up to 20min
Electrode position: recommended insted of F4 something like FT8 in foront of ear
Frequency : recommended 37,167Hz
Waveform : no data

I try if electrodes stay at head after night and be usable (stable contact)

UPDATE 7:09 AM
There have been stimulatory effects my wakefulness gradually increased and i can sleep for hours.
I noticed start of increase wakefulness about 25min post stim.
So far I've slept an estimated less than 2 hours .I feel veryawake definitely much better for me than normal afterawake state or awake in middle of night.

I remeber few fragmnets of about 3 short dreams. One of them have short perod of lucidity.LD was spontaneous lucidity in dream but last only about 20s I do not remember very well how it ended nad my memory from dreams is also very fragmnetet (i not train dream memory for many months) .From this very limited data it seams that frontal stimulation have no effect on memory or only wery weak but have strang effect on increase wakefullnes.

Over the last month I had about 2 LD and not do any Ld techniqe to limit interaction with stimulation .2 month back i have about 1LD per week.

Info from Subconscious (puerly subjective) :
Chance for LD befor stimulation : 10,6%
Chance for LD after stimulation : 67 %

It is still too early to say that the stimulation can cause LD it will take more attempts in the future to peove it. It need also sham stimulation to exclude the placebo effect, measurement of EEG, EOG verfied LD ..
But this first result seems very good.

The electrodes seem to be OK after 6 hours on the head ,contact with whole surface ,tehyt do not move ..

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> UPDATE
> There have been stimulatory effects my wakefulness gradually increased and i can sleep for hours.
> I noticed start of increase wakefulness about 25min post stim.
> So far I've slept an estimated less than 2 hours .I feel veryawake definitely much better for me than normal afterawake state or awake in middle of night.
> 
> I remeber few fragmnets of about 3 short dreams. One of them have short perod of lucidity.LD was spontaneous lucidity in dream but last only about 20s I do not remember very well how it ended nad my memory from dreams is also very fragmnetet (i not train dream memory for many months) .From this very limited data it seams that frontal stimulation have no effect on memory or only wery weak but have strang effect on increase wakefullnes.
> 
> Over the last month I had about 2 LD and not do any Ld techniqe to limit interaction with stimulation .2 month back i have about 1LD per week.
> 
> ...



For lucidity you should try stimulation along with WBTB perhaps?
So, wake up after few hours of sleep like 6, turn on stimulation or put delay of 15 min on it, go back to sleep, see results?

----------


## ATA

The initial plan was to use stimulation after 6h of sleep where I use playlist witch recordings  20 minutes of silence and 5min of stimulation played in loop . But i dount  expecting so strong effects after a stimulation test.
I leave WBTB test to next try.Probably use the same electrode montage F3-F4 is not best for effect but easiest to prepare.Other montages needs more preparation i have now beard so i must shave or use more conductive gel.If F3-F4 work is be simplest for use TENS type of electrodes .

----------


## thewolf16

@SearcherTMR 





> If however they send them, it will be interesting to see if they actually do anything - from a video they posted, it seems their electrodes are metallic buttons!



These arent just normal metallic buttons but stainless steel non-contact Sensors like Neurosky uses:

http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/1...teel-round.jpg

----------


## ATA

From my stant point neurosky is toy not EEG and use stainless steel is far from ideal.I use gold electrodes with silver wire and to get hi-quality signal is also needet some skin preparation right amount of conductive gel..
But this all depend how quality of signal we want to get for EOG mesurment is seems OK use this buttons. Im worried about stimulation by them we still dount have any infomation about  stimulation current, current desity , lenght of stimulation and many other paramteres luciding planed to use.

----------


## thewolf16

@ATA

By the way: very impressive. Im looking forward for the next test.  :smiley: 

Edit: Yes, Neurosky itself is a toy because it doesnt send any raw data. But Luciding only use their Neurosky EEG-Asic board which is useable. Here another pic of the Neurosky electrodes. They look exactly like the Luciding ones:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...L._SL1151_.jpg

----------


## ATA

If luciding use this as stimulation electrode i assume diametter of button 1cm it give 0,785cm2 of surface area 

Current desities at various imput current (if device use only only 2 electrodes for stimulation)
1mA   1273uA/cm2
0,5mA   636uA/cm2
0,25mA  318uA/cm2

Stimulation current density in study was 20uA/cm2 if luciding use this current desity its output current is only 15,7uA (0,0157mA)

From my test i found  that usable current desity is max about 120uA/cm2 and ideal about 40uA/cm2 so if luciding use same range its ouput current be in range 30-95uA (0,03-0,095mA)
I use prepated skin 70% isopropyl alcohol and EEG conductiv gel metal buttons without gela nd praparation can causeadverese fealing in much lower currents.
*current form smaller electrode man same current density is in brain lower doe to various effect but skin fealing is realively the same.

----------


## thewolf16

Luciding does use 4 electrodes. Also i would guess that they have a diameter of 2 cm2 :

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...c386af71c0e337

So they could have a current of 60uA?

----------


## Kaan

I see 5 electrods wich is weird.

Edit: I used "weird" but as English is not my every day language, it is maybe too strong.
By weird I just mean It is strange, I wonder why there is 5 Electrodes, and not 4 or 6

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## MisakaMikoto

> I see 5 electrods wich is weird.



How so?

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## thewolf16

You're right, sorry. But why it's weird?

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## Kaan

sorry for my neebie question but In the pic we can see 2 head bands, and each one seams to have 5 electrodes on it.
Aren't electrodes supposed to go 2 by 2 ?
to which one the 5th is supposed to be connected?

Edit: By connected I don't mean connected, but linked as the curent goes from one to the other one through the skin

----------


## ATA

Hard to say now it possible that 3 electrodes are for EOG measurment (+,-,GND) and two are ment for stimulation .
*for me is thers electrode setup also very wierd

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> Hard to say now it possible that 3 electrodes are for EOG measurment (+,-,GND) and two are ment for stimulation .
> *for me is thers electrode setup also very wierd



I don't think we should trust that image as an actual placement of their electrodes.
It seems to be more like picture featuring not assembled parts of device...


Their electrode position perhaps might be similar to the one they used on prototype version of device:

----------


## ATA

Electrode placement in this pictures is just chaos.  :smiley: 

Headband of this wide cant get to measure  EOG in supraorbital position above eye  and a stimulate F3 (DLPFC) in same time .

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## Kaan

"It seems to be more like picture featuring not assembled parts of device..."

It's possible but if you look very close, the "maybe not assembled" electrodes are placed exactly the same relativ way on the two head bands, althoug the head bands are not in the same orientation.

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## Highlander

I hope there is enough room to cram in a 50 hz notch filter in that amazing box of electronics to suppress all those nasty radiated noise artifacts from that mains lamp near his head!  :smiley:

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## SearcherTMR

> I see 5 electrods wich is weird.



Is this the only thing that is weird about their device? I can't see anything that makes any sense...





> These arent just normal metallic buttons but stainless steel non-contact Sensors like Neurosky uses:



Sorry Wolf, but I don't think this is the case. If you look closer, you will notice that the Neurosky helmet (apart from being a toy as AKA said) uses compact, pure, flat, stainless steel electrodes. 
image.jpg
The Luciding "device" on the other hand, uses simple clothing buttons! You can clearly see that 1. The are not flat like Neurosky's - they have a stem 
image.jpg
2. They are not even - see the picture you posted: they are uneven and most likely hollow! 





> Electrode placement in this pictures is just chaos.



I totally agree... This does not make any sense. I mean seriously, what kind of company answers every simple and casual question and refuses to answer the serious ones? They have not answered any technical question and I suspect that they simply can't.... Petr continues to ask them about details but that have answered nothing, NOTHING.
I believe that their "device" is not operational and this is the reason they fail every deadline (5 by now, I think). They don't send the devices because if they will, everyone will find out... Until then, they keep selling and making money... I really hope that I am wrong, but....

Anyway, regarding my trials, first two nights, the tACS device was triggered 3 times as I found in the morning (2 + 1 ) but no lucidity. I have to start changing stuff such as intensity and electrode placement.
I wish Jeff was still around to give us details of his setup but it seems that he has left...

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> Is this the only thing that is weird about their device? I can't see anything that makes any sense...
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Wolf, but I don't think this is the case. If you look closer, you will notice that the Neurosky helmet (apart from being a toy as AKA said) uses compact, pure, flat, stainless steel electrodes. 
> image.jpg
> *The Luciding "device" on the other hand, uses simple clothing buttons!* You can clearly see that 1. The are not flat like Neurosky's - the have a stem 
> image.jpg
> 2. They are not even - see the picture you posted: they are uneven and most likely hollow! 
> ...



No, no no...
I ain't buying this stuff 
I'il just hope that LucidSage's Consumer Version is going to be released somewhere in the near future.




> From her responses to me it seemed that she is not only very busy with research but had to attend to other matters and was unable to reply often, let alone quickly. 
> 
> I will talk about it more in one of the next podcast episodes but in general, despite her (and her research team) looking at it from a different point of view than we do, I felt that my concerns were mostly put to rest. 
> 
> There are many people working on devices in the same vain (myself included) and a consumer version is not far one way or another.



Or in the worst case perhaps just spend my funds on TENS Device and do some 'Android App x TENS Device' Magic

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## SearcherTMR

> Or in the worst case perhaps just spend my funds on TENS Device and do some 'Android App x TENS Device' Magic



The most simple and cheap thing to do, is to make a PCSpeaker device, as Petr suggested. I assembled it and is super easy to do - took me 30 min.
image.jpg
 If I knew this setup 3 weeks ago, I wouldn't have bought the TENS device. 
Even now, if my setup fails, I will try Petr's setup instead because it it easy, versatile and can produce many waveforms - as easy as making a sound file!

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## thewolf16

Wow, this seems very easy to make, but dont you need any oscilator to controll the waves? And how do you controll the current intensity? At step 3: Do you need to get the signal from the speaker or the board? How do you connect the cables to the low voltage end (without soldering)? Does every power adapter works? And can i use this cable (of an non-functional cheap tens device):

IMG_20141119_105855.jpg

with these electrodes?:

*Link removed* Sanitas Electroden Set

I will build one for myself when luciding wont answer to the technical questions.

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## Kaan

As I understand, the oscilations come from the MP3 or the smartphone thanks to an audio file you can make with soundforge for exemple.
The curent controle is a good question !  all the PC speaker arent made the same way, so tests are needed to me.
The signal comes from the speaker but through the reversed transformator.
Is it a 220 V our a 110v by the way?

More details, photos, shemas , and a tutorial would be apréciated in the future for thoses who want to build their own.
But more tests and reports are needed.

----------


## ATA

Right now completed another test F3-F4 location 40HZ sinus current about 0,15mA (only fast test of it before sleep so value can oscilate during the sleep)
I have about 7 of sleep in 10min put on and setup the device and start test 8:30 today.

I have problem fall asleep because i usually roll over in bed l few times before it and i didnt want to do that beacouse of wires.
I experinced very strong sleep signal like roll over signal and ithching of the nose after some time hart to say maybe 20-30min i try change possition few times and finnaly fall asleep.
*i must better prepare wires i fixate wire in onle leg of table to prevent pull it out from device but when i roll over i was on limit of wire lenght and was comlicated by that (wire is long enought only need chnge fixation point and move table closer to bed)

To not pull wires form elctrodes whne rolling in bed  i use this method .Wires from electrodes are only about 30 cm long its better for cealing and allow better manipulation.They are conncetet it to abut 3 m long wire twoline (tough enough to not to sever by body movement). The long wire create a loop around neck bigh enought to pull head to it witch knot inforn of and behaint the neck .From the knot of back side of neck continue about 5cm of wire.Thin wires from  electrodes go from forehead to ear and bahaind it where connect to thicker wires ,joint is not soldered it be better use some connectors. There is also one reason why is not soldered if something go wrong i an very fact severe conncetion by hand witch is better otion than try to put down electrides in prosec of dicnnecting electrode from skin contact area witch if decrease nd current desity go UP so this is safer way.Joint of wires is insuleted by some tape.

used audio file was 5min of simulation adn 20 min of silence 

I slept about 2H and dont have any LD but i have about 5 false awakenings usualy witch scenario that something go wrong with stimulation .With some tenaing is can be used to acheve LD by reality check after awakening.This many false awakenings is unusual form me but is imposibble say now of they are due to stimulation or only worry/ecitemnet about testing method.

i did not feel the stimulation and could not determine h whether running or not without looking at metter.After final wake up i look to the mettr and see 0,15mA value.

Data form subconscious (purely subjective) THIS DATA ARE ONLY SOMTHING LIKE INTUITION THE CAN BE HELPFULL BUT DEFINTLY NOT BOUD BY THEM THEY MUST BY VERIFICATED BY OTHER METHOD
Dit i hit REM stage by stimulation ? : no 86% of stimulaton in NREM and 10% in wake state only 4% in REM (total stimulation time witch stimulation ON , count also witch ramping periodes 21,5min )
Chance to Ld before stimulation (in planned 2h sleep) : 4,7% 
Chance to Ld with this stimulation : 17%
Current: too low -  average 32uA/cm2 recomanded 52uA/cm2
Electrode position: miss F3 of about 0,4cm , for right side recomendet in forn of ear possition
20/5 min palalist : not ideal --) measure few hypnograms by EEG and make better if you want science data or wait to subconscious alanised data about a week

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## Highlander

I guess some form of initial ramping could be achieved by the actual recorded volume of the mp3 file used, providing the signal to noise ratio and overall quality is high, and there is no transient noise or clicks present in the recording itself.

A bandpass filter (centred @ 40 hz) would probably help reduce that problem, including the issue of 50/60 hz radiated inteference from mains house wiring and other electrical appliances.
You would have to maybe choose your transformer or adapt one to your design, as it would depend on the turns ratio and the quality of it.

For example, you might need to consider adding a failsafe option to your intended design if the primary/secondary wiring ever shorted out on a cheap transformer. (Rare I know but I have seen a frazzled modem after a lightning strike.)

----------


## ATA

Good testing of wavefrom on osciloscope and current on metter is higly recomended you at least need measure current.Its possible use device without current mesuring but in this cas you dount have any data about used stimulation.

For usage you need do test on  leg and on head during the day. 

Test on LEG
*setup device to lowes volume 
*start signal
*turn on device
*conncet electrodes
*slowly increase volume on aplyfiler to momnet when you feel something never use more than  80% volume on signal source or amplyfiler becuse it usualy distort the signal
*now lower volume below fealing level usualy with some reserve ,its usualy about 20% decrease 
*another info you can get form my other tests

I think it be possible use soundcard es osciloscope to test signal but need some chnges hi voltage from transformer will problay fry it. Testing signal in osciloscole for this simple sine wave it not needet but formore complex ones in future is recomenedet.

Transformator i used 230V to 9V 50hz . Its build for 50hz so work well with 40hz sinus and other in frequencies is effectivity worse.
Usage of 110V is also posible but volatge be lower it depend of electrdes and its resistance .
Also you can encounter many types of trenaformtors i use one directly form slpeaker it possible use diferent ones its best use bare tranformator not encased ones in some cased they may maybe  have some electronics  like diode bridge (not tested) . Also teh ycan be like 230V to 3V to  factor by 3x more than mine this not the problem important is current higher voltage is not problem. Output of this type can be even 100V .     

Current measurment i dont have now digital ammeter so i can test if it usable to measure very low current defitly fork good to 0,5mA but current in uA may be a problem.

If tranformer shorted out  its still not big  poroblem becouse source of amplyfiler is only 9V battery.

----------


## Highlander

> If tranformer shorted out  its still not big  poroblem becouse source of amplyfiler is only 9V battery.



If a 9v battery shorted out it could cause a fire.

I mentioned in my previous post about the cheapo transformer as a worst case scenario, for example if someone designed their bespoke system via a laptop running from an adaptor or a mains powered PC. 

Laminations on windings can also deteriorate or fail due to corrosion, faults in design or manufacture, etc. resulting in either an open or short circuit condition (depending on the cause.) 

At one place I worked we had to x-ray the modem transformers on the board to check the wiring as it was impossible to check by eye.
There were some faulty batches made which failed in the field, (as in end user.) Albeit o/c.

We don't want anybody off here winning the Darwin awards!

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## ATA

To 9V battery make a fire is possible but very uprobable it must shortcircut by some thin wire very close to battery ,shortcircut somewhere in amplyfiler is also possible but risk of fire is there much lower. 
Good idea is measure trasformator if its ok even if it shorcircut it not give more current and voltage will be low .Even worst case scenario where 9V battery is connected directly to elctrodes is safe if electrodes are OK.
Worst case scenario possble is amplyfiler to max volume and bare wires or 9V and bare fires  with contact of skin this can cause skin burns and be very paitfull but isnt enought to kill you and chnace of damage to the brain is also very minimal even in this very extreme condition.

Everything must by powered by battery no mains chance to malfunction is very very low but current from mains is enough to kill you.

from Luciding:We shall not use electrodes from past photos (we already changed them). There will be update soon describing all our materials.
We are using different electrodes for eeg and tdcs. We need 5 of them, as we tested out our methods with various quality of reading eeg and pushing signals, and that's how we optimized this processes.
We are all extremely looking forward to see all your feedback about this positions, when you will get the devices, but right now this is the best way of usage.

*they mistype tACS for tDCS  :smiley:

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## SearcherTMR

> from Luciding:We shall not use electrodes from past photos (we already changed them). There will be update soon describing all our materials.
> We are using different electrodes for eeg and tdcs. We need 5 of them, as we tested out our methods with various quality of reading eeg and pushing signals, and that's how we optimized this processes.
> We are all extremely looking forward to see all your feedback about this positions, when you will get the devices, but right now this is the best way of usage.
> 
> *they mistype tACS for tDCS



Das this sound like a technical response to you?
What I get from this is that they have no idea what they are doing.... and is it mistyping or mis-knowing?

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## ATA

I hope it is just mistype  or that it's because that  every  member of the team not have a knowdedge  on all areas but write wron mout important thing about technology  :Sad: 
They  have idea what they doing  but only idea not the needed level of knowledge and experience. Well its take time but they start preorder too early .From my stant poit they need at lest another half year to make good and well tested device.

I plan do my test every 2-3 dayes .Now i go learn  little bit more  knowledge about the tACS (search for any study about effect of varyous waveform type on brain waves synchonization)

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## SearcherTMR

> ... oscilator to controll the waves?



As Kaan has already pointed out, no oscilator is needed. That's the whole point and the good thing about Petr's design: this clever setup, converts any simple audio signal (from a phone or mp3) to an electrical stimulation signal! So, all you need, is a free program like audacity, to make a 40hz sine wave audio file (if need help on this, just say) that will be converted to stimulation by the device! You can also experiment with other audio signals - eg square waves, saw-like waves and such, and also add fade-in, fade-out to the audio, that will be converted to stimulation!





> And how do you controll the current intensity?



Either from the phone/mp3 volume (as I did) or the PCSpeaker volume. It is that easy! 
Just keep it low: After you feel sth, lower it a little bit, and you are ready,





> At step 3: Do you need to get the signal from the speaker or the board?



From the speaker. Just cut the wires before they connect to the speaker and connect them to the low voltage end of the transformer.





> How do you connect the cables to the low voltage end (without soldering)?



There are many options here. If it is an old PC speaker that you do not need anymore, you can just cut the wires of the low voltage end, and connect them with the speaker wires - but adding a little solder to any wire connection, secures the connection, it is not that hard: youtube has a lot of easy tutorials how to solder!
The other thing to do - without damaging anything-  is to use a "transformer connector block" to make the connection (search ebay for this as links are not allowed, or even better, go to a local electronics store to be sure it is a match for your transformer).
What I did, was take the connector of an old scanner that was a fit, and used it...





> Does every power adapter works?



As Petr said, almost any will do - internal better than external (as I did). 
But, because we use it in reverse, if the output is very low (say 3V), then connecting it in Reverse, will result in very high voltage. 
So, I would suggest to use a 9-12 v transformer. 
Connection to the internal transformer as well as all the other steps, are described by Petr at his post No 142.





> And can i use this cable (of an non-functional cheap tens device):
> with these electrodes?:



The image is quite dark, but I suppose you can!
It would be cheaper though, to buy a new Chinese tens machine (in Aliexpress they start from 8€ with shipping and they have wires, electrodes and connector block that you can take appart from the machine  :;-): ).





> They  have idea what they doing  but only idea not the needed level of knowledge and experience. Well its take time but they start preorder too early .From my stant poit they need at lest another half year to make good and well tested device.



That would be the best case scenario... And although I doubt that this is the case, I hope you are right!


Regarding my trials now, 4th night with no results... I have changed electrode position and used 4 electrodes in the original study's positions, held by a headstrap. No Lucidity, and no increased Dream recall.
I wonder if I am doing sth wrong, or simply the DreamZ app misses REM sleep.
I am thinking the next nights, to use my setup as a time delay relay - play a silent file for say 40 min, then the 10khz for 8min (relay activation) and loop... so I will have more changes of hitting REM than with DreamZ app...let's see what we get!

----------


## thewolf16

Thank you for your help

I think the DreamZ app misses the REM sleep. The app tracks your movements and calculate the moment you are in REM sleep. This is very inaccurate because the app can only track if youre in light sleep, deep sleep or awake. The Rem detection is just a calculation of these data and the time you are asleep. This is very inaccurate (also because the rem-sleep of every human is kinda different). The results can depend of the type of your mattress too. This is the most inexact kind of rem tracking.

----------


## ATA

Also do not do test every day leave one day pause this is beoause is stimulation couse change of sleep architecture is good have one day to recover it .Is there also chance tahat in night without stimulation can have different dream recall an LD count than normal.

Hit the REM can be porblemtic witch accelerometer detection but is there a chance that hit REM is not needet in all types of stimulaton.

Waveform i try to serch about other types of waveform used by tACS but found nothing everyone use sinus stimulation.

it may be possible to find some information by search CES (cranil electro stimulation)  they used different wave forms  but mostly they are  commercial devices and info is not aviable .Usage of ters waveforms dount usualy have any scinece backing and they use it only  to sound new and differed  from the competition. 

Usage of TENS type of waveform i didnd found any relevant scinece data yet so hard to say what it is doing .

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I try write some small article about theory of LD induction by tACS becouse no good with all needet data exist yet.There are question about stimulation that are not answered even in dr Voss artile but are very relevant for construction of device.

First of manny questiones is what functions we want to turn on and its connections to parts of brain and brainwaves.

----------


## SearcherTMR

> I think the DreamZ app misses the REM sleep. The app tracks your movements and calculate the moment you are in REM sleep.



Yes, I know. I just had some experience with the app, and it seemed that it did a good job for me. Nevertheless, these last nights it let me down... Some of the triggering happened while I was wide awake....
I do however suspect the reason... it has to be ON the whole night for accurate tracking. However I use it as a vibrating alarm for WBTB and then start the app, so it does miscalculation... I have to find another silent alarm, and have the app running all night long!






> Also do not do test every day leave one day pause this is beoause is stimulation couse change of sleep architecture is good have one day to recover it .



That is good advice, thanks!





> ...i try to search about other types of waveform used by tACS but found nothing - everyone use sinus stimulation.



Regarding type of waveform for tACS, the original study that started it all, used sine wave stimulation. Nevertheless, no Lucidity (except perhaps in one case) was achieved in this study... Only statistically significant results....
On the other hand, Jeff replicated the experiment and claimed 100% success with LUCIDITY, using two devices: The EV-806 A that produces asymmetric biphasic square pulses, and the Jace  tri-stim that produces a similar waveform (not sine wave):
image.jpg
So, this is what I tried... I hope that my failure is due to REM detection failure which I will try to fix the following nights.
We'll see!

----------


## ATA

Problematic is far more compex nobody counts with interpersonal differences for instance this can make to 100% diff in current in corex level.Size od electrode also change current in brain. few others : current path in brain , ongoing activyty , shunting effects  , lenght of stimulation . This is only basic ones thre are many more.

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## ATA

searching for full text :
Theoretical investigation of transcranial alternating current stimulation using realistic head model.


DLPFC


montage in study

3,5x4cm , 14cm2 , 250uA

This information in study is  confusing and can be almoust be considered wrong " resulting in maximum current density 18uA/cm2 at the scalp ". They use montage in picture so average current desity is not 18uA/cm2
but 9uA/cm2 . Maximum 18uA/cm2 is only in extreme case where all current go trought one of paired electrodes .

----------


## SearcherTMR

> searching for full text :
> Theoretical investigation of transcranial alternating current stimulation using realistic head model.



Two similar articles with free full text:
Transcranial alternating current stimulation (tACS). - ResearchGate
Theoretical investigation of transcranial alternating current stimulation using laminar model. - ResearchGate

----------


## ATA

Today test 
Result : no LD ,2 dreams , memory below normal

Params:
F3-F4 location
40Hz
4cm2 electrodes
5min stimulation and 20 min silence loop
after 4,5h sleep , lenght of stimultation 4,5h
Current set to 220uA but after sleep it was only 50uA ( porbably some problem with contact or low battery) 
Current density  55uA/cm2 set  ,morning 12,5uA/cm2

Data form subconscious (purely subjective) :
    Dit i hit REM stage by stimulation ? : yes 9min (18%) 
    Chance to Ld before stimulation sleep : 0,02%
    Chance to Ld with  stimulation : 0,08%  
    Current: low - average 12uA/cm2 recomanded 48uA/cm2
    *Very small %LD chance caused by interfering subconscious operations . I was repogramming some subconscious setups it take lot of resources and can block chnce to LD. Sepeed od reporgramming was 18x increased after stimulation. 

-----
SearcherTMR : tahnks for links i read first one few dayes back second one looks interesting

----------


## SearcherTMR

Two more nights with stimulation.
This time I had the DreamZ app running all night, and after WBTB just attached the electrodes.
Noticed much better dream recall than the intermediate (no stimulation nights) and my best guess is that the stimulation occured during REM sleep. No Lucids though... either Jeff wasn't honest with his results after all, or I am doing sth terribly wrong... :Confused: 
I wish he was still with us to get his feedback!

----------


## unfundable

A friend of mine and I are working on reproducing the results that jeffg and Dr. Voss had. We are building an Arduino device that will output 2mA at 40hz. But after reading this thread I am a bit worried that 2mA might be too high. It even seems like 0,25mA would be too high after reading about SearcherTMR's research. Is that the case?

----------


## SearcherTMR

> A friend of mine and I are working on reproducing the results that jeffg and Dr. Voss had. We are building an Arduino device that will output 2mA at 40hz. But after reading this thread I am a bit worried that 2mA might be too high. It even seems like 0,25mA would be too high after reading about SearcherTMR's research. Is that the case?




Hi unfundable!
First, lets make a few things clear: Dr. Voss didn't achieve 70% lucid dreams with her setup. She "defined" lucidity as: "lucid score: average + 2 standard deviations" which definitely doesn't equal Lucidity. Just a statisticaly significant effect, which is a completely different thing...
From the reports , there might have been a few LDs but certainly not even close to 70%...
Take a look at this nice explanation and also in LucidSage's interview.
Jeffg on the other hand, on this Forum, said that he achieved 70% REAL Lucidity and after some time, he made changes that led to 100% lucidity for him! 
Although 100% seems extraordinary, he appeared to be quite honest, giving many details of his setup and graphs and also made a donation to Michael from lucidscribe in order for him to replicate the results. Michael has not yet done so, and Jeff is not with us anymore to give more details on his settings and setup...
Luciding also promised 99% lucidity, but of course they proved to be quite dishonest in every way....
As for the current now, I think it is a matter of measurement and the reading on a device knob might be very different from the actual current - measured live.
Dr Voss clarified that the current was below sensory threshold, which means the subjects didn't feel anything during the stimulation. Jeff said 2mA but addressed nothing about the subjective feeling. 
So, what I did was simply adjust the amplitude to be barely noticeable - not caring about amplitude readings. My plan was to lower the amplitude to below sensory level for long term use - provided I had good results. Unfortunately that was not the case after all.
I have a few adjustment in mind for next trials, but I am not as excited anymore...

----------


## Kaan

you guys are making a great job! don't give up !
yeah, we all need to know If/How/Why jeffg's device worked with something close to 100% success, or even 70%.
And the 99% LD Luciding claim to provide with the headband are hard to believe (but I hope it will work!)
This being said, all this electricaly induced LD stuff is just at his begining, it needs lots of "try, mystakes, fails, try again..." that that's what you are doing, so don't give up!

Bye the way:
Has anyone heard about "peripheral cortex" Luciding are talking about?

----------


## ATA

About the current .
No one has the certainty  say now what current will be ideal.

Very often is there  lack of understanding about current ,there are many "types" of current: 

Current from device (without load or standart load )
Current from device in "live" conditions during stimulation
Current density on electrodes 
Current density on electrodes (edge effects)
Sensory treeshold current
Pain treeshold current
Phosphenes treeshold current
Shunting (tangental current in skin)
Current density at a cortex level 
Radial current in cortex
Tangental current in cortex

*Current level at cortex does not necessarily mean effect strength

Give information about a current from the device without other parameters is quite useless

---
Use 2mA (with load head+electrodes) can be OK if elecdrodes are big enought 5x5cm ,25cm2 ,80uA/cm2 current density .Still this answer is very simplefied for instance its largly depend of electrode type and positions for instance  if electrodes are close the tnagental current trought skin will be larger and inrease skin fealing.

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> About the current .
> No one has the certainty  say now what current will be ideal.
> 
> Very often is there  lack of understanding about current ,there are many "types" of current: 
> 
> Current from device (without load or standart load )
> Current from device in "live" conditions during stimulation
> Current density on electrodes 
> Current density on electrodes (edge effects)
> ...



We could perhaps try to contact with Jeff and ask him if he minds providing all of this data  ::yeah::

----------


## unfundable

I'll test out the 2mA on my leg and go from there. We should have a working prototype by EOD tomorrow. I'll post follow up and comments based on what I learn.

----------


## SearcherTMR

I have contacted Michael (IAm Coder - lucidscribe) and asked for details about for his setup and progress. His answers were quite interesting, so here are the main points (slightly edited):

"I have not heard back from Jeff yet. I have asked him for some guidance on the DV thread.

I had some issues where Lucid Scribe wasn’t turning off the EV 806 and the 15 minutes alarm would wake me up. And then I had some runs where the mA was too high and gave me headaches or too low and didn’t show an effect on the EEG channel. If the device is set at 2mA, my muscles start twitching. At 1.9 or 1.8, it stops, but I can definitely feel and hear a buzz. It gets uncomfortable and starts hurting after a few minutes. Anything under 1mA for a minute is OK. And the next day throughout the day I can hear a buzzing in my head if I listen closely.

I ended up cutting two of the large stick-on electrodes down to size… was running out of real-estate on my forehead.
I use 5 electrodes - 3 for the Zeo and 2 for tACS. I have one electrode above my right eyebrow, one above my left eyebrow and the ground in the center of my forehead just below my hairline. The two tACS electrodes are just above and towards the center of the left and right electrodes. I have also tried placing them to the sides of the electrodes and away from the center / at the temple.
When Jeff shipped the device, the tACS wires were combined with 2 of the Zeo cables through a splitter / merger. But as soon as I connected the tACS cables, the Zeo EEG would pick up a lot of noise, even when it was off and not plugged into the USB power relay.
A big variable in Jeff's situation was that he did it during WBTB.

I haven't had much success with my setup yet, but I haven’t had that many opportunities to try it... need to take a break between runs. And my work schedule has been pretty crazy where I couldn't afford to mess with my sleep. But hopefully this week with Thanksgiving will give me some time.
I will upload to LSDBase as soon as I get another good recording, regardless of lucidity."

----------


## ATA

Funny just today i read his post and also want to write him  :smiley: 

I found some more data about EV 806 device 
source: http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cdrh_d...f8/K082514.pdf
The data are from are from  FDA but they seem strange to me they do not make any sense.

I suppose device is controlled by voltage of 0-5V and it is multiplied 10x . So max voltage be 50V and in 500Ohm load give 100mA .If it device setup to 2mA it give output voltage only 1V not very good for planned apliacation.

Use current infomarmation from device is useless its needed to measure it with mutimetter with right range in live setup.
Also is important infomation about electrode size. 

The values in device are in peak current effective current is only 16% of it in this case (mutimettrer measure effective current)

--------------------------------------------
I look to current mesurment little bit deaper :

current measurement - What value does ammeter or voltmeter measures (RMS, Average or Peak )? - Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange
Measurements of AC magnitude : Basic Ac Theory - Electronics Textbook

My values are in average current it is 0,637 of peak current 

"Measure" current from TENS device it be possible only in oscilloscope by reading the voltage of peak anou counting current . Also its need be done in live conditions head do not act as simple resistor.
Read only value of currnet form tens device is totaly useless and mesuring with ammeter is also not very good method.

---------------------------------------



I look to original study for  stimulation params  : 
tACS. Low-intensity sinusoidal alternating current (250 μA peak to peak) was applied through a battery-operated CE-certified stimulator (NeuroConn Stimulator Plus) to induce frequency-specific alterations of the EEG. Specifically, four electrodes (3.5 × 4 cm2, connected pair-wise) were attached to the scalp at positions close to F3 and F4 and over the mastoids close to TP9 and TP10 (Supplementary Fig. 2a–c), resulting in a maximum current density of 18 μA cm–2 at the scalp.

THE DATA ARE IN PEAK TO PEAK values if i unedrstand it right it is 2x than peak value . If i compare it to vaues you mesured in normal mutimetter is 80uA .Electrodes are 3,5*4 = 14 cm2 and are connected to pairs , one pair have 28 cm 2 . The current desity on electrodes is only 9uA/cm2 peak to peak ,  4,5uA/cm2  peak , 3,12 uA/cm2 RMS , 2,86uA/cm average . Device have constant current so we dount need know resistance of elelectrodes and head.

----------


## IAmCoder

This is my _current_ setup:



You can see the two trimmed tACS electrodes sticking out of the same holes as the two EEG electrodes on the left. The original size was roughly the size of the spare electrodes that are awaiting their turn in the top-right corner. They are worn pretty much as they are placed here. The middle / ground electrode is positioned in the center of my forehead just below my hairline. The two tACS electrodes slightly lower and to the sides of it. And then the other two EEG electrodes just above my eyebrows.

@SearcherTMR, thanks for getting me back on DV! My machine died and I wasn't able to reset my password as I wasn't receiving the reset password email. I might have missed some PMs as my inbox was full... the last one was from 2014-10-07.

This is how intense it was at 2mA... it got uncomfortable after just a minute:



I have now turned it down to 1mA or just below:



I have not yet had an LD, but believe that I came close last night... the tACS was supposed to turn off after a minute, but it kept getting turned back on by the EEG because it was stuck in REM. I was subjected to two doses of 8 minutes each when the staging went from REM to Awake and back to REM:



I imagine that is what the signature of lucidity would look like, but I can't remember a thing so it doesn't mean much. After that I received a fifteen-minute-long dose of electricity which gave me a headache and woke me up. I had to turn off the EV-806 manually (it beeps when it is on for longer than 15 minutes) and then I disabled the plug-out and went back to sleep. I exported the logs to LSDBase for anyone who wants to take a closer look.

I will update the code to only run for one minute every ten minutes if I am in REM that long.

----------


## ATA

Thanks for the post 

like i wrote i previous post TENS device is not very good for plication is use biphasic rectangular pulses about 200micro seconds not the sinus wave .TENS waveform is designed to stimulate nerve endings in skin this can increase discomfort. I dount found any study that use this type of waveform for brain stimulation is hard to predict effects. Also current infomation from device is almoust useless it cam be compared only to same type of device with same type of elctrodes in same place and still be very unprecize becouse of different head and head-electrode resistance.Best way to figure out actual current is measure peak voltage in oscilloscope.

Can you write size of your electrodes ? 
Size by probably similar to my 4cm2 electrodes , if you be making new electrode in future make it circular it reduce edge effect (current spikes in corners of electrode) 
I use for similar size of elecdrodes and max 320uA (average current) it is 530uA in peak current , values in your deviceare in paek current . Still is very hard to compare your wavefrom to sinus one.In stimulation i use 55uA/cm2 , output form device 220uA (bouth values in average current) in peak value it is about 350uA.

If we try coparation by effective current my setup give  output 250uA efective end yours if you use 4cm2 electrodes and 1mA on the device 160uA effective current but to 500Ohm load in real condition will be probably lower.

Can you export RAW values from EEG ?
Use scoring by sleep stages dont give almoust any usefull data it be better look to RAW signal in Brainbay BrainBay 
*update i found CSV on your site i plan to look at it brainbay

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## IAmCoder

The size is 3.8 cm. Thanks for the tip, I might grind off the edges of these. The tENS device is all I have to work with for now.

The CSV doesn't contain the RAW EEG data. I exported to EDF and uploaded that. Let me know if it works for you - the EDF exporter is still relatively new.

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## SearcherTMR

Seventh night on stimulation yesterday. 
I tried a stronger stimulation signal this time (not barely noticeable but quite uncomfortable).  
No lucitidy again, but I was awoken by the stimulation, so I know for sure that it triggered during REM (because I was dreaming, and I remember quite clearly the dream) - confirming my observation that when the app runs the whole night it does a good job - at least for me...
image.jpg
Also, when I woke for WBTB, I was also dreaming (I remember some of that dream as well) and the app also indicated correctly that I was in REM.

Regarding Petr's reading and researching of current strength and measurements, my opinion is that the subjective feeling is more important. I would classify the intensity as sub-sensory (as in Dr Voss studies), barely noticeable, comfortable, uncomfortable and painful. I think that this would help more in getting consistency between different devices and setups - as current measurements can be quite problematic...
As for the signal type, as I have already noted (post 193), official studies like dr Vosse's used sinus waves but Jeff (whose results we are basically trying to duplicate) used TENS and EMS devices that produce square signals - and that is what we are doing. 
For me, if I continue not getting results, I will also try sine waves using Petr's easy setup.

----------


## ATA

Unfortunately use subjective fealing for device setup comparation is quite useless and is it a bad idea. If we not measure quality data we dount get in research anywhere.
Setup is best from sub-sensory to barely noticable range if it is uncomfortabale someting is wrong it can be current density, skin preparation , electrodes...
If someone use wrong electrode the fealing can be unconfortable but current  can by few hundred % different form normal uncomfortable current.

----------
I look at EEG files from IAmCoder

stimulation:
Wavefrorm is very different than i expected.
Stimulation have gap for 1s every 2,5minutes

stimulation signal from 2014-11-04 file 
first file.jpg
This is definitly not 40Hz signal i have hard time to name it
The "waveform" main cycle is 1s it has 2positive pulses and one longer negtaive one they are repeated in about 7Hz 
* signal can looks like very different in reality sampling rate of ZEO is only 123,16Hz and its ampyfiler is probably very oversaturated
* sampling rate value is strange 

second file :
sampling rate 126,6Hz is also strange and more strange is it is diffrent from first file 

second file.jpg
this signal look much better porblably becouse EEG amplifiler is not to overstaurated
but still are there are 1s cycles nad also show 7Hz modulation wthout testin signal on oscilloscope is imposible tell how really looks like  

signal have very low quality and many artefact to do some good EEG analisis

----------


## SearcherTMR

> Unfortunately use subjective fealing for device setup comparation is quite useless ... If someone use wrong electrode the fealing can be unconfortable but current  can by few hundred % different form normal uncomfortable current.



Hi, 
Technically I agree with you (what you say is correct), but for practical reasons I think that the subjective feeling is quite valuable. 
That is because :
1. It is super easy to measure and report
2. Lets you know if you are within safety limits (sup-sensory to comfortable as you said quite correctly)
3. It is consistent for the same experimenter, using the same device over time (that means if I get the same just noticeable signal, I practically get similar signal strength).
4. It can be quite consistent for different users, provided - as you noted - they have similar (gel) electrodes, so, similar feeling most likely will equal a comparable current.
Now, if we need to make a strictly scientific research or publish a paper, of course that would not be enough (although subjective feeling is noted in papers - and as Petr noticed, even Dr Vosse's paper has mistakes regarding accurate current measurements).
So, what I propose, is to use subjective feeling for between-us communication of signal strengths and respective results in a basic - but practical way. 
That, of course, is just my opinion.

----------


## ATA

From luciding :

Our device can make 6 - 80uA by programming it right now.

We have very stable current, for 6uA it's okay without gel. We are testing new electrodes, like I already told, made with carbon cloth.

We will post update soon, as our tests are going well and will be finished this week.

* current values are probably in average crurrent  (62% of peak value)

----------


## IAmCoder

The 2014-11-04 file was definitely over-saturated. The second file has 40 spikes in each second... although the first few aren't very impressive - no idea what I can do about that with the device. Also not sure about that break every 2.5 minutes.



I managed to get it to run for one minute with ten minute breaks in-between without waking myself up, and administered over a dozen doses in a new recording that I uploaded with EDF data. I had exceptionally vivid and long dreams again. The mA might have been too low this time, will turn it up a notch and maybe keep it on for two minutes at a time.

----------


## SearcherTMR

Regarding my trial, eighth night with stimulation yesterday. 
The device triggered three times but I had the amplitude quite high, so it awoke me every time, no LD again....
As a matter of fact, from my tests, 4 - 5 stimulations awoke me or happened while I was awake and from the rest, some might have missed REM. So, only 1-2 realy failed - so more are needed if I am to conclude that it is useless. Nevertheless, no more trials for now because of my upcoming exams...

----------


## IAmCoder

Good work on the trials. And good luck with the exams!

Here the Zeo classified from REM to Awake after 30 seconds of tACS, but I remained asleep the whole time:



So it looks like it can work from an EEG signature level in theory at least...

----------


## Kaan

Hi guys.
This is the question I just asked on the Luciding FB page.
Maybe you guys have some informations and Ideas about the issue it underlines 

"I have a tecnical question about EOG/EEG and Stimulation timing.
I have just learnt that there are two kinds of paradoxal sleep (REM sleep) : Phasic REM and Tonic REM
From what I understood, on Phasic REM the dream is deep, Rapid Eye Movements are noticable (EOG) but external stimulations are barely noticed bye the dreamer within the dream. it is not so easy to wake up the dreamer at this stage.
On Tonic REM, the dream is less deep, there is no Rapid Eye Movements, but external stimulations are easily noticed in the dream, and wake up is easy.
A REM stage consists of several occurrences of these two kinds of REM sleep, I don'k know exactly the sequences.
My question: does your device take these facts in account?"

Edit: I also asked it to the Iwinks staff on their FB;

----------


## ATA

*Arousal thresholds during human tonic and phasic REM sleep*
Arousal thresholds during human tonic and phasic REM sleep - ERMIS - 2010 - Journal of Sleep Research - Wiley Online Library

I suppose that stimulation in luciding will begin in  phasic-REM becouse is  based on EOG and EOG are mainly in phasic-REM. Is hard to say if luciding device can 
tell the difference between phasic and tonic REM from its low quality EEG signal but definitly it not doing it right now.

We even dount know lenght of stimulation in luciding.

tACS is not sensory stimulation so situation is very different but effect willl be problay the same risk of awakening will be grateher in tonic REM . This is simplified becouse stimulation have affter effects that can be very different from effects in stimulation in theory even reverse.

Device does not take these facts in account , it is useless now becouse we dount have enought info about tACS effects.

----------


## Kaan

thanx for the link.
What would be also interesting to know is how the Phasic and Tonic phases are sequenced within a REM sleep stage, how long they are, and how is the evolution of these changes during the whole night. 
It is not exactly the subject, but it could give understanding about WILD, DEILD and other LD technics, and also how other LD devices are supposed to work with this kind of biphasic REM structure.

----------


## poolster

inspired  by this forum i decided to build my own tACS
i use a XR 8038 functiongenerator to generate the 40Hz  square waveform
i use two pregelled Ag/AgCl electrodes ( 10mm) on position  Fpz and Fp2
i have to my surprise a  light phosphene reaction with a resistor of 180K
next time  : interfacing the tACS with my novadreamer

----------


## SearcherTMR

Nice job!




> next time  : interfacing the tACS with my novadreamer



I was also thinking about connecting my tACS setup to my REM Dreamer (for better REM detection than the DreamZ app) but I simply don't know how ( basically I have an idea, but it's quite complicated). If you come up with a simple solution that will work with REM Dreamer too, please, let us know!

----------


## ATA

Try to use larger electrodes and better electrode position.Measure current during stimulation.

----------


## poolster

for the interface with the novadreamer :
remove LED from NOVAdreamer  board and replace with a optocoupler  4N27 ( see foto's)
connections 5 and 4  from the optocoupler  go with two fine wires to module 
setting novadreamer : dial 2
if novadreamer see movement of the eye : relais close  and you get a "phosphene cue" for 10 seconds  (if C = 10uF),   
for easy datalogging :
i use a webcam in combination met a free time lapse program
place  LED 1 in front of the webcam
if novadreamer see movement of the eye : LED goes on for 60 sec and captured with the webcam 
Now  it is time to play....

----------


## poolster

more foto's ...

----------


## Highlander

@ Poolster

_Ref: DIY tACS - NOVADREAMER.PDF_

Going from your schematic I notice that the 8038 waveform generator stays on where you switch the OUTPUT of the 8038 via a SINGLE pole relay rather than a dual. 

What would happen for example if your body completed the 0v circuit in regard to the (unswitched) +pulse output at pin 9?

I'd have thought maybe a better and a safer option would be to switch the supply input to the 8038 rather than the output, plus a relay switching might put more noise in the signal.

Did you consider using or ever experiment with the sine wave output @ pin 2 as the 8038 is quite versatile.


_Ref: tACS module.jpg_

I presume that you have isolated the power supply module shown in the photo?

BTW what is your final load current via the electrodes?

----------


## ATA

I hope you dont plan use the tripple geltrode as a electrode is ment for measuring and is not good for this kind of stimulation dount use electrodes smaller than 3cm2 also so far is no good data about targeting and large electrode may be better for start you may go up to 15cm2.

----------


## poolster

Hi Highlander..
of course battery pack's are more safe than a power module... feel free to switch to battery pack's...
but battery pack's are a "pain in the xxx'... so i dislike them

if you interrupt one cable of the electrode ...you have no "cue"

i measure the Ici with a HP3457A( 20 year's old)  = 12uA  ( C=1uF  R=180K)

kind regards

----------------------------

hi ATA, i can combine the three electrode's from 1 pad to "one"... i shall try it  
kind regards

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## ATA

Its still be very small surface area , smaller electrodes need higher current density to achive same current density at cortex level . Like i write also we dount know what target pick one of possible ones are F3,F4,orbitofrntal cortex, temporal cortex,some onother areas of prefrontal cotex.Also depent of angle of current to neurones and many other factors. 

my old notes abou tDCS for tACS values will be different but basic principe is the same 
http://brmlab.cz/_media/project/brai...x_-_simple.odt

Shunting
Large part of current is shunted by skin and also by lower level by skull and CSF. The ammount of current reaching cortex is depend of current density on electrodes its sizes and placements nad also of skin a skull thickenes. Current models dount count with skull anisotropy of conductivnes becouse is very hard get data for this model by MRI (it posible use CT). * individual male scalp and skull thickness variation, which can be as high as 58% and 34% of the average, resulted in up to 76% and 20% changes of the peak brain E-field, respectively 


-----------
 Basic rules (for orintational values look to studies)

    smaller electrode have = more shunting
    electrode close together = more shunting

From one test: Electrode density in the cortex, i try to count difference of current density with this configuration nad standart 35cm2 pads (its only orientational) EKG electrode 3,14cm2 ,1mA , 318uA/cm2 ,+ on L-DLPFC and - on FT10 (left temporal below the hairline)

Role of size

    normal 8,7uA/cm2
    HD 21,5uA/cm2

Inresiting is current desity on electrode is be 11,21x higher but current density on top of the cortex only 2,47x This also means the current density is be the same like in 2,5mA with standart 35cm2 pads.

    The accuracy of these data is limited by several assumptions that were built into the model, such as the layered spherical geometry and the conductivity values used. However, since we are only calculating ratios (e.g., by what factor should the current be reduced when the electrode area is halved) as opposed to absolute values (e.g., what is the current density value at the target point), the results should not depend too strongly on those assumptions

Shunting

    only a very rude aproximation
    normal 8-9 uA/cm2 max
    HD 12-13uA/cm2 max

If we consider size and shunting effect the current density will be only 1,5 higher than in standart 1mA/35cm2 

-----------
Here some data for tACS
Theoretical investigation of transcranial alternating current stimulation using laminar model. - ResearchGate

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## Highlander

@ poolster

Referring to your recent schematic:

I would have thought that the design would be a more efficient one if you utilised the -15v rail on the 8038 to take advantage of the - part of the square wave output to be true tACS (AC) rather than the 0v (?) currently used.

Thanks for the current data BTW.

----------


## unfundable

Hey guys I just got my Arduino Due in the mail. We couldn't get a clean enough sine wave with the Arduino Uno. Next up is purchasing electrodes. There seems to be a lot of discussion here regarding electrodes. I want to buy the right thing so suggestions?

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## ATA

Adhesive TENS type circular with surface area from 4 to 16cm2 . For now is impossible to say if it be better use larger or smaller ones.

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## SearcherTMR

> for the interface with the novadreamer :
> remove LED from NOVAdreamer  board ..... 
> Now  it is time to play....



Hi poolster!
Thanks for sharing you setup and ideas.
Unfortunately, your setup is way too complicated for my knowledge - and spare time - so, I can't try building one. But it's nice to see your little device and I hope you will also post your results here for all to read!

P.s. I am currently testing a new technique (a DEILD subtype) that needs almost no preparation, little loss of sleep and had good success rate with it, up to now.

----------


## poolster

sofar , 3 experiments with  tACS 40Hz/REM sleep :
1) when : first 4 hours of sleep
what : electrode  Ag  /AgCl  gel  EMG cross section  10 mm.. position Fpz/Fp1... duration 180s ... Iac = 136 uA
result : No lucidity  .... very uncomfortable ... to much Iac

2 ) when : last 4 hours of sleep ( wbtb)
what : electrode Ag  /AgCl  gel  EMG cross section 10 mm.. position Fpz/Fp1...  duration 10s...   Iac = 40 uA
result : No lucidity....   good dream recall

3 when last 4 hours of sleep ( wbtb)
what : electrode  TMS cross section 50 mm  position Fpz /c..  duration 10s...   Iac =60 uA
result : No lucidity... good dream recall

Next time   :  WBTB  ...TMS electrode on position Fpz/d.. duration 10s...    Iac = 60uA

----------


## SearcherTMR

Hi everyone!
I guess that most people reading this thread are searching for an easy method for on-demand lucid dreams - instead of trying for weeks or months for one. That was the case for me - and  that's why I build the tACS device - but not anymore! I have found a technique - a DEILD subtype that gives me a lucid at every attempt - up to now, 4 proper attempts, 4 lucids!
So, I am off this thread for now - I will be just watching - and wish good luck to anyone trying!

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> Hi everyone!
> I guess that most people reading this thread are searching for an easy method for on-demand lucid dreams - instead of trying for weeks or months for one. That was the case for me - and  that's why I build the tACS device - but not anymore! I have found a technique - a DEILD subtype that gives me a lucid at every attempt - up to now, 4 proper attempts, 4 lucids!
> So, I am off this thread for now - I will be just watching - and wish good luck to anyone trying!



Agreed  ::yeah:: 

I've managed to have two or maybe three lucid dreams in single day when i successfully applied Phase Technique week or was it two ago.
And now that holidays start i'il have more time to practice it  ::-P:

----------


## poolster

2 experiments with tACS 40 Hz
1) when last 4 hours of sleep (wbtb)
what : electrode cross section 50 mm position Fpz/d .. duration cue 10s ...Iac = 60 uA if novadream detects REM
results : 1 poor Lucid dream duration two seconds...

2) "inverse experiment"  : continu stimulation until REM sleep  
when last 4 hours of sleep ( wbtb)
what : electrode cross section 50 mm position Fpz/d  Iac = 60 uA
results : none

----------


## thewolf16

Hey,

ive got a question: I think you know what a dream machine is: Its a stroboscope that flickers at a certain frequency. You can see this flicker through closed eyes. When you have a possibility to start the scroboscope when you are in REM sleep and it flickers at 40 Hz, could it induce a lucid dream? 

When it works i maybe have an idea for a VR-App for GearVR which induces lucid dreams.

----------


## Kaan

I have an electronic machine (protheus) with a pair of glasses and a set of Leds for each eye that flickers at different frequences.
But it can't reach the 40Htz, and if it could, I guess you wouldn't see anything because of the retinal persistense.
That's why movies are configured in 24 frames/sec .

----------


## IAmCoder

Lightened Dream has a WILD Inducer under the tools menu that flashes the screen. If you set it to 25 milliseconds, it will try to flash the screen at 40 Hz. Whether the processor and hardware can keep up and, as Kaan mentioned - whether the retina can convert it to action potentials fast enough is another issue. Definitely worth a shot during WBTB.

I could also update the Screen LED plug-out for Lucid Scribe to start flashing the monitor at 40 Hz when REM is detected if anyone is interested in running some tests.

----------


## Whatsnext

I can try setting my LD glasses to 40 Hz. It's 1 Hz now  ::lol::

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## Ctharlhie

> Lightened Dream has a WILD Inducer under the tools menu that flashes the screen. If you set it to 25 milliseconds, it will try to flash the screen at 40 Hz. Whether the processor and hardware can keep up and, as Kaan mentioned - whether the retina can convert it to action potentials fast enough is another issue. Definitely worth a shot during WBTB.
> 
> I could also update the Screen LED plug-out for Lucid Scribe to start flashing the monitor at 40 Hz when REM is detected if anyone is interested in running some tests.



Are you saying there's a possibility it will fry my laptop?  :tongue2:

----------


## IAmCoder

> I can try setting my LD glasses to 40 Hz. It's 1 Hz now



Elite. Pro tip: unhinge the frames from your shades and fit the glasses into a headband for a more comfortable fit...

That gives me an idea for a Ganzfeld generator app... that just flashes the screen with a configurable color (default red) at a configurable frequency, perhaps with some noise in the background. Then just wrap the phone in a white sock around your head to generate ein Feld!





> Are you saying there's a possibility it will fry my laptop?



No, unless you leave it on all night... that can't be good for the screen. Much more likely that it will drop a few frames and not run at 40 Hz.

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## Ctharlhie

> No, unless you leave it on all night... that can't be good for the screen. Much more likely that it will drop a few frames and not run at 40 Hz.



But it would still be effective as an anchor if the frame rate dropped?

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## jeffg

Lucid dreams and metacognition: Awareness of thinking; awareness of dreaming -- ScienceDaily
Research | Research news | 2015 | Lucid dreams and metacognition: Awareness of thinking - awareness of dreaming

some news...was out of action these few months

----------


## jeffg

I kind of stopped after getting a long run of success , the novelty wore off and got busy with other down-to-earth stuff like making a living etc. 

But glad to be back with some experiences to share...it seems like the thread got alive just after I left off

1. It helps greatly to map out the sleep patterns over a period of time and check which periods in the night you are most likely to hit REM sleep. For me it was around 4am for most nights. A good tool that helped me gain insight into sleep patterns is zeo and basis. Comparing the two results also helped pinpoint the time slot most likely success to hit REM sleep. Get to know your body sleep rhythms.

2. It was difficult to get any sleep with the electrodes on all through the night, so for me what worked was : Set the alarm for 4am and pop Vit B complex and choline before going to sleep,  wake up at 4am, pop a Galantamind (initially, although I stopped it after getting the hang of it), stick on the electrodes, turn on the device put on the eye-mask and use the WBTB method. A few minutes later uopn REM detection the arduino triggers the 40Hz to F3/F4 and a bluetooth speaker under the pillow outputs a steady 40Hz sine isochronous hum.

3.The first time I hit lucidity, in the dream it was a shopping mall with lots of people and caught my reflection in a mirror and saw I had the eyemask on and realized it must be dream since it is not possible to see through an eyemask, although all the people around seemed very real and was not walking but on an escalater of some kind...another time had shopped for something from ebay in Hongkong and in the dream was strolling down kowloon street and realised it must be dream. The key trigger seems to be to be the ability to realize that you are in a dream.

4. the tacs was set in a continuous mode, 1 min on and 2 minute off cycles with a time delay since the 40Hz signal seriously messes up the Zeo EEG signal

Thanks

----------


## FryingMan

^^ B complex and choline and galantamind….and success for lucids is attributed to the device?   Aren't there way too many variables in that mix to make any valid conclusions?    

What was the track record of the device isolated from any interfering factors, e.g., your baseline LD frequency doing everything identically (same wakings, intention, etc.), with the only difference being the presence or absence of the device?

----------


## jeffg

Yes it is true what you say about the interfering factors or is it a combination of all? Whatever works

But it is a scaffolding to help get you started, once you start becoming aware in your dreams you kind of don't need them anymore

----------


## Ctharlhie

> Yes it is true what you say about the interfering factors or is it a combination of all? Whatever works
> 
> But it is a scaffolding to help get you started, once you start becoming aware in your dreams you kind of don't need them anymore



Uh, no, there's a reason they're known as supplements. Get to know your LD baseline through working on the fundamentals. Sorry to be harsh but I won't trust any trialling of magnetic stimulation when galantamine is an extraneous variable.

----------


## jeffg

Maybe it was galantamine that triggered it, or tacs, I don't know for sure but I stopped galantamine  soon since wasn't sure about supplements use long term.
then used tacs for a while and stopped  that as well coz once you get the hang of it you don't need anything, you somehow learn to be aware during dreams without crutches, something like learning to ride a bike without the training wheels. Like one time dreamt about a community working together, poor but helped each other and it was fun interacting with them with a degree of control over who you spoke with and what you did together with them.....

----------


## SearcherTMR

Hi Jeff!
Glad we have you back in the conversation, since it was your success that motivated us all to build the devices.  ::wink:: 
Thanks for the extra info, as well as the details you pm me ( basically what you shared here, plus that the subjective intensity of the stimulation was barely noticeable and that your success was with sinus and not square waveforms).
Nevertheless, as FryingMan said, it is not clear whether your success was due to tACS or the supplements or part of it was your normal achievement. 




> 3.The first time I hit lucidity...



So, was this your first lucid ever - no lucids before using galantamine and the device?
If not, what was your previous success rate?
Also, after ceasing using the device, did you still have lucids and how often?Because what you say about learning once and then becoming natural is certainly not true for everyone...

----------


## jeffg

Thanks for kind words, SearcherTMR, it was never my intention to motivate or mislead people into building tACs devices or start a career as a tACs salesman. 40Hz symmetrical square wave is a good approximation to the sine wave, instead of the asymmetrical pulse wave, in fact I think some kind of 40Hz excitation to the pre frontal cortex during REM should work.

guess what I was trying to say is this will not happen overnight, and takes  patience (at least 2-3 months), hits and misses, practice and real desire to LD. It is important to pinpoint when you hit REM sleep and unless you know this accurately it is just trial and error. If anything it helps you become more aware of the body rythms, REM sleep patterns and give a better control of your mind.

It started off as a fun experiment for me and did try all kinds of techniques, supplements tACs, binauaral, Remy etc in my search for LD. but what worked first was tACs, so whatever combo helps improve your chances , why not? It seems like just another acquired ability like playing the guitar or learning kung-fu. Then after a while it makes you wonder what it is that achieving lucidity does? Entertainment, escape from reality...what is the purpose? I do admit it is fun though to indulge in this form of entertainment if you willing to spend the time and effort

----------


## FryingMan

No one's saying you're trying to mislead.  It's just that as far as I understand it, we can't conclude anything about the effectiveness of tACS until it's isolated from confounding factors.

----------


## Kaan

I started to use galantamine with some WILD/DEIL/Raduga's techniques.
this night was my 9th attempt and it was my 7th success (with my very first complete OBE experience).
For my last attempt I used my RemDreamer to help me coming back to the Raduga's way of doing this, but anyway.

I would go the same way than the last comments, Galantamine sound's like much more effective than tACs, but what I would like to understand is what SearcherTMR pointed out :you claimed 100% success few months ago with tACs, and you are saying , if I well understand, that it is the first time you hit lucidity.
Could you clarify this point please?

----------


## FryingMan

The problems with galantamine (or at least Galantamind) is that many people (me included) have trouble getting back to sleep on it.   *If* you can get back to sleep, the dreams G+Choline give are mind-blowing.   But that's a big "if" at least for me.   Anything that give a similar result without the downsides (having to wait 3-4 days between attempts, also) would be very welcome.

----------


## Kaan

> The problems with galantamine (or at least Galantamind) is that many people (me included) have trouble getting back to sleep on it.   *If* you can get back to sleep, the dreams G+Choline give are mind-blowing.   But that's a big "if" at least for me.   Anything that give a similar result without the downsides (having to wait 3-4 days between attempts, also) would be very welcome.



I also experiment this difficulty to fall back to sleep, but I suspect the norepinephrin produced by anticipation/ self pressure  being half of the insomnia origin .
To Avoid that, or at least to reduce the time to fall back to sleep, I imagined a protocol that I first tested this night (partially explained HERE  ) and that is derived from the Raduga's technique : After having slept about 5 hours, I WBTB and take LD pills, but I do not try to WILD after the intake of Galantamine, I just try to sleep without trying anything. the galantamine is not supposed to alter your capacity to fall asleep as soon as you take it, so if you don't put too much pressure to yourself, you won't produce the NE that prevent you from falling back to sleep. What I did is that I put my Rem-Dreamer on, and I program it to start tracking REM only when Galantamine will start to be effective, so My device will start to wake me up only about one hour after my WBTB (Galantamine takes about one hour to reach his peak plasma and to start to kick in) , and only when I will be on REM stage.
Then, I can take off the Rem-Dreamer and try to WILD, taking profit of the Pro-REM action of the Galantamine and his ability to suppress Rem Barriers.
That 's what I did this night and it worked very well.
You can do it without RemDreamer if you trust your ability to wake up about one hour after the intake of Galantamine,  in the beginning of a Rem Period, but a REM detection device increase your odds to wake up at the best moment to try a WILD;

Edit : to be able to use Galantamine without waiting 5 days between each attempt, but rather about every other day, I just started to use Piracetam just after a LD attempt.
I'll see if I can reach 2 to 3 attempts a week this way.

----------


## SearcherTMR

> ...it was never my intention to motivate or mislead people into building tACs devices ...



As FryingMan said, no one accused you - inspiring someone is not a bad thing at all. It would be better though, if you had mentioned galantamine in your first posts - so your success would not be attributed to tACS alone.
On the other hand, as Kaan said, we are still trying to figure out how exactly tACS contributed to your results. 
So, from what you said up to now, after trying various techniques, you achieved lucidity for the first time with a combo of galantamine+tACS, then went on to have about 7 lucids every 10 attempts with this combo, then discontinued galantamine and reached a 100% rate of lucidity (is that correct?) using only tACS, and then you stopped trying and never had a lucid again as you concentrated on your daily stuff. 
Is that about correct? If so, tACS might have actually been quite effective in your case...

----------


## FryingMan

I almost never try to WILD on galantamine.  I wake up (sometimes with alarm since I tried to take it earlier and earlier in the hope that I'd be more tired), pop the capsules, and immediately aim directly for sleep, hoping for a DILD, and many times it's worked out well.  But many times it hasn't.

I in general don't like the idea of supplements beyond just vitamins, so I don't want to be taking piracetam: drugs to get you "high" on LDing, then drugs to get you down….don't really like that idea.

WBTB @ 5 hours even with no supplements at all can result in insomnia for me, so that's just my special challenge I guess.   But on galantamind (which has B5 in it, supposedly which causes insomnia), I'm wired wide awake, even when trying to aim directly for sleep and DILDs.  I do hope to get some galantamine without anything else in it to give it a try and see if it's any better.

----------


## jeffg

> you achieved lucidity for the first time with a combo of galantamine+tACS, then went on to have about 7 lucids every 10 attempts with this combo, then discontinued galantamine and reached a 100% rate of lucidity (is that correct?) using only tACS, and then you stopped trying and never had a lucid again as you concentrated on your daily stuff. 
> Is that about correct? If so, tACS might have actually been quite effective in your case...



Yes, you have summarized it very well except about never had lucid again. Now when I am in REM dream I am somehow able to recognize its a dream and turn it into a lucid one. Not all the time but with intention and will...it is all about using the tACs power of association during REM and awaken the ability to recognize when you are in REM
Attached image shows a typical REM tACs activation cycleSleep pattern.jpg

----------


## SearcherTMR

^^ Ok, I am good with this info Jeff. Seems after all that you are almost a natural in LD. 
You just never seriously attempted before, then galantamine and tACS got you going, and now you are off without crutches. Good for you - although I am not sure how helpful tACS can be for the rest of us. Perhaps as you suggested, many trials are needed to get benefit from it - most likely I will give this another try in the near future using your parameters.
 Thanks anyway for the clarifications!

----------


## jeffg

> ^^ Ok, I am good with this info Jeff. !



Wish you all the best! One last thing is to have some sort of a reality check, for me it is something like look in a mirror and see yourself with the blindfold on. a sort of an Aha! moment while in REM mode.

----------


## SearcherTMR

Hi everyone!

I think it's about time I give a short update on my trials with tACS, as no-one else seems to update here, either with trials or news...
So, after having some difficulty with the Raduga technique (anxiety leading to insomnia), I resumed trying to get lucid with tACS. 
I used Jeff's settings this time (1 sec on, 2 sec off, 3 stims) and I had one successful and one unsuccessful (slept throughout the stimulation) attempt. Nevertheless, the following nights, I suffered insomnia (after WBTB) again, so I didn't have another chance to see if it works...
While trying to figure out how to deal with this, I thought of using a tACS setup to automatically put me to sleep and then bring me back to 40hz lucidity - the idea came from the binaural beat sweeps and I thought that it could be even more efficient using a tACS signal. So I build the PC-Speaker version that can play any waveform - including ones with variable frequencies. I made a sweeping recording, going from 10hz down to 3 Hz (to put me to sleep) that after 30 minutes went quickly up to 40hz (and then 1 sec on, 2 sec off) that would hopefully induce lucidity. I also had to adjust the signal intensity, as it is felt different at different frequencies - and I wanted to keep it just sub-sensory at all times. Unfortunately the idea didn't work...
I never fell asleep, even after trying different waveforms (square and saw - as sine was quite uncomfortable and difficult to balance) and was stuck to insomnia in every attempt...
So, during these last trials, I  didn't have many chances to see if Jeff's settings actually give results - the initial success might just have been because of the extended alertness and not the 40hz stimulation, I can't be sure. Anyway, I will stop these trials for now - again - and I will be off to trying other methods in order to deal with my anxiety and resulting insomnia - and most likely go for the Raduga technique again...

P.s. If anyone has any tACS related news to share - except for the Luciding fraud updates - please post here to keep this thread alive!

----------


## thewolf16

The guys from Luciding are handing them out now. One customer (someone from the german lucid dreaming forum) tested it last night and he had a lucid dream. He said that he felt a noticeable pre-lucid state which made it easy to go to the lucid state with a RC. Yes, that all could be placebo, but it sounds really cool. Lets see what time will tell us.

----------


## FryingMan

Anecdotal reports really don't mean anything without a full disclosure, and even then, it's the long-term results that are important.

----------


## SearcherTMR

^^ Hey, Wolf! I was about to post the same news but you were first!
Seems I was wrong about Luciding after all - at least in part. 
So, indeed they have started shipping the finished devices to real customers - I thought they never would... 
But if we review what they have said up to now, we can have an idea what to expect from them:
The initial promise was:
"... You will get lucid for 100% and will remember your experience after the awakening for 100%". 
In other posts they advertised "99% chance of getting lucid". 
Then they published "real test results" showing about 40% chance of lucidity - but hey, even that is more than good.
Then they promised just bright, 3D like dreams disappointing everyone - but then they said it was an advertising technique...
And now, in a few days we will have the first real customer's reports.
I am really interested to see how this goes, as we are either in front of a lot of disappointment (after perhaps some initial - expectation related - success) or a new era  in Lucid dreaming. 
Time will tell.
Btw, Lucid Sage is also reporting making progress in his device, so we can just wait and see...

----------


## FryingMan

Do you have any pointers to the LucidSage device?

----------


## SearcherTMR

^^ Not something specific unfortunately. 
The only info I have is from his *Link Removed* where he reports having hired another engineer to speed up the finishing of the device, that he now invests more time in the project, that it still is in a non-good looking prototype - but working - stage and is starting first test with the intention to launch a Kickstarter campaign. The podcast by the way is quite interesting as it discusses all the recent Ludid dreaming related Kickstarter campaigns. That's all that I know about it...

----------


## FryingMan

Ugh, podcasts...1 hour of time spent to gather maybe 2 minutes of useful information, and you have no idea where it is buried.   Thanks for the info.

----------


## MisakaMikoto

Hi Guys,

It seems like Luciding has changed their business plan and device will be one-time-purchase if i've understood them correctly  ::-P: 
yameta.jpg
Now question is whether to buy Luciding or Aurora device or perhaps both 
I wonder which one is more effective  ::huh2::

----------


## FryingMan

Maybe they decided that guaranteeing lucid dreams every night was a bad business model, generating thousands of irate customers paying but not receiving the dreams.  In any case, I'm very happy to see the "service plan" model gone.

----------


## anderj101

I envision a pop-up notification window appearing in the dream as things fade away:

----------


## SearcherTMR

^^ LoL!  ::chuckle:: 
Well, the initial plan could not practically work anyway, you could just not report your lucids and keep the subscription forever as there is no way they could know if you became lucid or not...
Basically it seems to me that the initial kid's team with the really simple and honestly terrible looking prototypes and procedures is slowly but steadily giving way to a more mature team in the post-investment period and both the new devices as well as the whole process seems more reliable and promising. I wish I could read their beautiful new web page but Google won't translate it from Russian. 
Anyway, I think they are heading the right way now and I honestly expect to see great results in the near future from them!

----------


## ikkyuzenji

Hi, 
I've been experimenting with magnetic 40 Hz stimulation (so far without success) using a PEMF (magnetic therapy) device at first, later building another one by myself. I've currently stopped experimenting because it is a bit tiring. Also, I could need some support from the forum. Such a device can be easily built and then be activated during REM by using a timer. You need a smartphone + frequency generator app; some kind of amplifier (e.g. from an old stereo set); a copper coil. You can get a coil from an old crt TV.  

The advantage of this method over the transcranial approach is that it is much more comfortable, since you don't have to wear electrodes of any kind, the magnetic field from a nearby coil easily going throught your head. So far I'm not sure about the required intensity and to what extent magnetic waves can entrain brainwaves.

----------


## FryingMan

I had a high school chemistry teacher who liked to blow things up in class.  He was pretty strange.  He told his class weird things that he did, but I just now realized that one of them is apropos my LD hobby.  He said that he slept with his head in between electromagnets in order to affect his dreams.

----------


## SearcherTMR

Hi ikky and welcome! 
I thought that PEMF devices were quite noisy to sleep nearby. 
What about your devices? Are they quiet enough?

Hi FryingMan. Do you by any chance recall this teacher reporting any lucids with his setup?

----------


## ikkyuzenji

Hi all, 

there are high power PEMF devices (such as the Americans favor) that use capacitors which make a sort of clicking sound. The low power PEMFs are mostly soundless. Mine makes a humming sound if I do a high frequency, e.g. 100 Hz, but you only hear it if you put your ear close to the pad. My device can do 25 Gauss max, compared to beyond 1000 G that some high power devices can do.

I'm sure the magnetic field affects the brain in some way, otherwise the "god helmet" wouldn't be working. In the tries I did so far I just slept through the 40 Hz. But maybe the intensity was too low.

I suggest you make youself such a device and then we can start experimenting. Besides the 3 components I already mentioned you also need a few meters of two-core cable.

----------


## NyxCC

> I had a high school chemistry teacher who liked to blow things up in class.  He was pretty strange.  He told his class weird things that he did, but I just now realized that one of them is apropos my LD hobby.  He said that he slept with his head in between electromagnets in order to affect his dreams.



Did it work?

----------


## FryingMan

> Hi ikky and welcome! 
> I thought that PEMF devices were quite noisy to sleep nearby. 
> What about your devices? Are they quiet enough?
> 
> Hi FryingMan. Do you by any chance recall this teacher reporting any lucids with his setup?



I was not into LD in high school and I generally avoided that teacher (even though one on one he was a pretty nice guy who helped me a lot).

----------


## SearcherTMR

^^ thanks Frying man, I guess we have to repeat the trials then...

@ ikky:
Your device isn't complicate at all and I might make one if others have success with it, but for now I am quite fed up with my tACS failures at 40hz (I  made more than a couple devises but I had almos no success - in multiple trials) so For now I have returned to conventional DILD and WILD trials...
Good luck with your experimentation!

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## ikkyuzenji

Hi SearcherTMR,

I can absolutely sympathize with your situation (being fed up) because I've experienced the same with all kinds of approaches during the last 20 years. I got the best results when I focused just on mindfulness, reality checks, meditation and WBTB. But the idea of easy access to lucidity by way of gadgets is just too tempting.

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## SearcherTMR

^^ I could have written this sum-up post myself!  :wink2: 
The only think I could add (for me) is the amazing success I had with Raduga's DEILD - but it soon faded away and I am back at the classic techniques for now... 
But yea, auto-lucidity with a gadget is VERY tempting...

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## MisakaMikoto

Not sure if this has been posted but appearently *Link Removed* company made 40 Hz lucid dreaming stimulation mask or something like that:
Didn't check this out myself yet since it's quite late but you might find this interesting or taking a look worthy

Type in google "*Link Removed* lucid dreams" and go to first result or *Link Removed*

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## FryingMan

The company name is "foc.us"

No REM detection, just a timer.   They claim an accelerometer is in the mask which will be used for more accurate REM detection "in a future update."  No data offered on effectiveness.

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## Highlander

For such a small device you would need a big wallet. Over $400 dollars for the kit, etc. although the developer's edition is on offer at a reduction of $100.

Personally for starters, I don't like how blasé the v2 (ld) illustration guide is shown on the webpage. It seems too simplistic. Nothing about montage positioning or measurement. I would be disappointed to say the least if you got a diagram like that with your main instructions after your purchase.

You would have to be quite dedicated to the hobby to fork out for an 'experimental' device. It will be interesting to see the reviews on its use.

It seems over-engineered to me. I'm sticking with my trusty arduino, Ic555, etc.

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## Bbutler

*P.s. If anyone has any tACS related news to share - except for the Luciding fraud updates - please post here to keep this thread alive!*


I have an Oasis pro with 40hz capability. You need to request the 40hz feature from Mindalive when you purchase it or they can send you an audio file by email, then load the 40hz program via a cord with headphone jacks on both ends. I also have it programmed to run for 3 hrs straight. I have used it during WBTB and when I randomly wake up in the middle of the night. I have had zero success. I have searched the net looking for other people who have tried the 40hz TACS method to help induce lucidity and posted their results, but I haven't found anything, especially since Foc.us came out with their TACS device. If this 40hz TACS method is so good as is claimed by Voss in her research, then why aren't more people talking about it? Why hasn't there been another study on the subject since? Why aren't we reading about all the success stories in LD forums? Its been almost two years now since Voss's report. I haven't used the Oasis Pro in a couple weeks now because I got discouraged with it but I think I will start trying it again. There is one thing I'm excited about. Foc.us has a cable pack with four cables with hydrogel pads. So I will put one pad behind each ear and one on each side of the upper forehead just like Voss did but with four pads instead of two. I just need an adapter for the Oasis Pro to the cable pack.

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## SearcherTMR

Hi Bbutler and welcome to the forum!
So, you have joined just for the 40hz tACS thread - same as I did quite a while ago... :wink2: 





> ... If this 40hz TACS method is so good as is claimed by Voss in her research, then why aren't more people talking about it? Why hasn't there been another study on the subject since? Why aren't we reading about all the success stories in LD forums? Its been almost two years now since Voss's report...



^^ That's because it's not so good at all...
It's all a "lie" of shorts on Voss'es part...
She falsely claimed 70% lucidity with tACS in her paper - and had everyone going after it since - when in fact, the actual percentage was close to zero...
She had already DEFINED lucidity ratings with her own LUCID scale (in previous research papers) and she intentionally rated as "lucid" dreams that were simply normal ones, just to make an impression (fooling everyone) ... and she did...
So, the truth is that 40hz tACS stimulation in that study, led to statistically significant changes in "LUCID" scale ratings, but far from enough to make subjects truly lucid - in other words, 40hz tACS might slightly increase the chances of lucidity but by no means will make someone lucid just like that....
As for new studies, some might in fact be running - it's not a matter of months to publish new high-quality studies..
Regarding trials from individuals now, the results are always the same: zero or close to zero (including my trials that are documented in this thread). The only individual who had success with it was Jeff (results n this thread) - but he turned out to have used Galantamin as well - so far from credible tACS success..
As for the "for sale" devices, luciding's first devices are surprisingly already shipped to a few customers (including our member Wolf) but as expected, the results were not impressive at all...
Focus is an absolute joke with no REM detection, no trials and no testimonies (in fact they should give it for free to testers at this point...) and Lucid Sage's device still in design...
So, yes, not much is happening with 40hz tACS- but the issue is: should there be, or should we just realize that we were all fooled by dr Voss...

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## Bbutler

Hello SearcherTMR, thanks for the welcome.

I've spent a lot of time reading posts on this forum learning all I can. Right now I'm doing ADA with meditation before bed and SSILD when I wake up in the middle of the night. I've tried all sorts of herbs, pills and I have several sleep masks. When I read your post I had to reply, needed to vent some frustration regarding the TACS device ha. I agree with you on Voss's Paper and I believe she should of also used experienced lucid dreamers, because a first timer my have just dreamed of being lucid. She should have tested more people too. Also, her "Lucid scale" is based on a subjective answer from the test subject, a subject that has never had a lucid dream before the test. But I do not believe we should disregard Voss's paper just yet, at least until someone else has tried to replicate the results. Based on Voss's paper; Insight and Dissociation were the two values in her "factor analysis" that stood out from the rest when 40hz was applied. Insight is essentially awareness and dissociation is seeing yourself or the dream scene in a third person. Sooo, perhaps if one was to be proficient in awareness during the day(ADA, meditation?) and performed RC's involving dissociation somehow then maybe better results could be achieved? From my personal experience this 40hz TACS method is starting to seem too good to be true but I don't want to give up yet. Think I'll keep trying every once in a while, see if ADA/meditation has any effect.

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## SearcherTMR

> ... Insight and Dissociation were the two values in her "factor analysis" that stood out from the rest when 40hz was applied...



Ok, both factors were affected by the stimulation - but look more close as they say for magic tricks...
Insight and dissociation ratings were indeed increased by the stimulation - and 70% of the dreams were rated as "Lucid".
But was the increase enough to induce lucidity? Unfortunately no...
The LUCID scale was created by Voss herself and the ratings were 0-5 for each factor (strongly disagree to strongly agree) and for the single most significant factor for lucidity  (insight that one is dreaming - that actually defines LDs) non lucids averaged 1 and lucids 3:
image.jpg
So, were ratings of 3 (or above) reached with 40hz stimulation for the factor "insight"?
Nope... it remained less than 1 (!!!)... that is : strongly disagree that I now that I am dreaming....
image.jpg
Statistically significant increase with the stimulation - yes, but clinically and practically totally insignificant... I am sorry but that's the truth about it.
So, why did Voss labeled these normal dreams as "Lucids" and claimed 70% lucidity when she achieved zero?..... I guess just to make it to headlines...
I did what I did because of Jeff's success - but when I learned that he used galantamin as well.... the 40hz tACS bubble was off for good...

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## Zthread

> I guess just to make it to headlines...



That's probably true, unfortunately.

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## Bbutler

I did not realize the low ratings on the charts that you posted at first when I originally read them. But now that you pointed them out, it make Voss's claims of lucidity more speculative at the least if not fraudulent. Wonder how many other people also missed that little detail. Less than 1 one her own "lucid scale" for insight at 40hz certainly isn't good, abysmal actually. Thanks for clearing that up SearcherTMR

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## thewolf16

I think it´s very hard to interpret a study as a a non-psychologist. Yes, the scale is too low to speak from full blown lucidity. But it´s just because the test-subjects didn´t know about lucid dreaming. If they knew about the subject, the little nudge would be enough so they could improve the lucidity (and awareness) with techniques like rubbing their hands together or spinning around. Because they didn´t do the techniques, the awareness was much lower than in normal lucid dreams but much higher than in normal dreams. But the most important things are the experiences: We heard from jeffg (a trusted member in this forum) that it works. The newest experiences are really exciting: Some guy works on a tacs headband named "LdreamM". It´s not just support tacs, but also eeg recording, lucid dreaming triggering with sounds played when the headband detects REM sleep, it can wake you after REM sleep (which makes it a effective WBTB helper and helps you to wake up refreshed), you can even use it when you are awake for biofeedback etc.. At first the lucid dream triggering with tacs wasn´t too effective because the electrodes impedance was too high. Now, with the right kind of electrodes he was able to get 2 lucid dreams in the first night. But he didn´t used the tacs stimulation as usual while he was asleep, he used it while he was awake 14 hours before he went to bed. He did the same thing yesterday and was able to archive 6 (!) lucid dreams in one night. But the most exciting thing is: He don´t make this all for profit. You can read his story here: *Link removed*

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## Zthread

> He don´t make this all for profit. You can read his story here: *Link removed*



You make some interesting points. Sorry the link was removed for being "commercial." Would be curious to read it.

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## SearcherTMR

Interesting news indeed. I am the first to get excited with a truly working auto-lucidity device (that's why I build my own tACS device) but I am afraid this is not the case here as it was not in Dr Vosse's trials...




> ...We heard from jeffg (a trusted member in this forum) that it works...



Nope, it didn't. 
He admitted to use Galantamine as well, so all the success might very well be from it...





> ...Some guy works on a tacs headband named "LdreamM". ....He don´t make this all for profit. You can read his story here: *Link removed*



I have read his whole website very carefully and with much interest, but it is obviously a typical FOR profit site, and although he says he started for himself, he now sells his device for 300$... that is FOR profit for sure...





> ...At first the lucid dream triggering with tacs wasn´t too effective because the electrodes impedance was too high. Now, with the right kind of electrodes he was able to get 2 lucid dreams in the first night....



The only info available in his web site is the opposite: the first nights his sleep quality was low, he woke up multiple times (WBTB) and had many lucids. But as the convenience increased, the LDs due to tACS alone became....zero. 
image.jpg
It's actually strange he admits that: "...the number of Lucid Dreaming per night became zero using simple tACS stimuli." He says he is expecting the new electrodes but has no news about it. Was it in a blog or something you got these news? Anyway, we should keep in mind that he had similar success with the previous electrodes, but only in the beginning. When the excitement-discomfort factor was over and 40hz stimulation remained as the only factor, the success rate became consistent with every other honest tACS report: Zero...
Btw, Wolf16, you promised photos and a report as soon as you got the device from Luciding (which btw looks very much alike with this guys) but you posted nothing - apart from the brief "customer report" in Luciding FB. Did they forbid you to post here about it?

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## regulator

A couple of more optimistic points:

First, as to LdreamM, while it might be for profit, the blog posts where he reports some disappointing results at least suggest he's not a shyster. 

Second, as for Voss's results, yes, the effect she got was fairly small on the key measure, and it was misleadingly described as inducing lucidity 77% of the time. But note a few things (some of which have been pointed out above):

a. The subjects were all non-lucid dreamers. It is entirely possible that with subjects practiced in LDing, the results would be better.

b. It is plausible that several parameters could have a huge impact on effectiveness: frequency of tACS burst, length of tACS burst, power/amplitude of tACS burst. And maybe others. The only one that was explored so far has been frequency, and that exploration was successful. It found the frequencies that seem to have the best effectiveness. That's good science. For all we know, small alterations to power/amplitude or length of burst could have a huge effect. But good science proceeds one factor at a time.

c. Even if (as seems improbable), the process can't be made any more effective by optimizing other factors, keep in mind that the results were reported for subjects who had exactly 1 burst, and were awakened whether they liked it or not 2 minutes later. And with that very circumscribed intervention there was still a statistically significant result, with at least some of the subjects (remember, non-lucid dreamers) actually reporting that they knew they were dreaming. Of course a device designed to help people achieve lucidity wouldn't be limited to only one burst per night, and wouldn't wake the person up after 2 minutes. It might deliver a burst once every 3 or 5 minutes for as long as the subject is in REM. How many burst would this be, with how many chances to achieve lucidity? Even if we assume only 1 hour of REM sleep, that could be 10 to 20 chances per night to trigger lucidity.

When you step back and look at the potential here it seems to justify at least some optimism. Combining the points above, consider a device that i) was being used by experienced lucid dreamers (as opposed to non-LDers), ii) had other parameters besides just frequency tuned to optimal effectiveness, and iii) would effect its intervention dozens of times per night (as opposed to only once). Would a device like that be solidly effective? Maybe, maybe not. But the situation doesn't seem to be one that forces pessimism.

I guess one reason I want to point this out is that if people prematurely adopt an overly pessimistic attitude, that might dissuade people from doing the continued exploration that very could have resulted in some effective tech had they continued.

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## SearcherTMR

Good points.
I basically agree with what you said - and I am not trying to be pessimistic but simply objective.
My main point was that the assumption we all have about tACS stimulation was wrong: dr Voss's claims had as all believe that we could easily make a tACS device and gain instant lucidity - at least 77%. Unfortunately this was not the case (even in dr Vosse's tests) and it has been proven ineffective  by many experiments up to now - including mine and many other's, even with different settings and multiple stimulations as you suggest. Of course it may very well be possible to have good results at some point by continuing the experiments and trying different variables - one at a time - but it's not as easy and straightforward as most of us thought it was...
And as I said, I will be the first one to be excited if a successful device or protocol is finally a reality!

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## LdreamM

Hi Everybody, I have just found your forum. My name is Tibor Pajer, I am the developer of LdreamM headset. After reading all the posts in this thread, let me share with you my points about the development, the financial issues and experiments.

Let’s start with the development: You are all enthusiasts of LD and a few of you tried the tACS stimuli with zero success, except jeffg, but this is not a clear situation either. You know, somehow your attitude – on my opinion - is not good enough. You tried to use some extremely simple electronics and very basic measurements during a few nights. In most cases even the electrode replacements were not exactly as in Dr Ursula Voss’s experiment. And are you disappointed with zero results? This is not a simple 1-2 days run. Everything should be well developed, tested, redeveloped, retested and so on. You think so perhaps, that if one of you does one experiment, the other one does another and if you share the results, than you can shortcut many trials, testing, disappointments. Unfortunately this is not the case. No one of you has even developed a stable device, which could be used regularly in many-many nights. And THIS IS THE VERY BASIC of the experiments. Many of you do not measure the brain waves, either. You are just guessing about the right timing of tACS stimuli. And as I mentioned, you gave up experimenting after a few nights. 
From this perspective, do you still thinks so, that you should have had success in your endeavor? 

And know about the financial issues: If you want to do a really good testing device, than it takes a lot of time AND money!! Please, understand me right, but again, your attitude was wrong, when you wanted to do a simple electronics with a few electrodes as cheap as it just possible ($20 to $40). For the very first experiments that is an excellent idea, indeed, but you already before the very first physical action killed the whole think in your mind. You should see it clearly, that for the big things you should think big. I am not talking about the marketing and the other stuffs. I am not interested in it, as well as you. I am talking about the real persistency, the real driving forces, and the big ideas about the future of Lucid Dreaming in your life particularly. If you would have big day dreams, than you would not restricted your goals for some awkward tryings. With almost zero investments of your time, money, enthusiasm and skills you get almost zero in return!! 
Some of you mentioned, that I am for money, as well as the other companies. Than unfortunately my personality could not penetrate through your minds. This should be my error. For clarity, please take in consideration, that till now I have invested a few years, actually many-many THOUSANDS of hours of my free time and THOUSANDS of dollars for experiments from my own pocket. I do not have investors, did not sell the LdreamM headsets before reaching any successful results. How than can you compare me with other companies?? Think about that, please!! You know, as well as I know that there is not such a big market for these devices. But if you express your gratitude for my research buying a working device (I do not have it yet), than you could help my further researches, and you could benefit from that, too.
 You mentioned that I have admitted the unsuccessful tACS stimuli experiments, and that was strange for some of you. I understand that other companies just telling nice stories about theirs devices, without any actual evidences, which should be a warning for an open eyed person.
 If you are really enthusiasts of LD, than why do not contacted to me directly, as other people do? Why do not you join the LdreamM forum on FB? May be, there you could see much more experiments and measuring results, that are not yet on my website? 
So, please do not give up the hope, follow your experiments or at least do not be so pessimistic. May be, LdreamM will not be able to induce LDs, but at least I tried seriously. And if we do something seriously, than we have much higher chances to success! 

thewolf16: Thank you very much for your laudatory words!  :smiley: 

Once again: you are all welcome to the LdreamM forum on FB, if you are interested on the latest results.

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## FryingMan

^^ You're absolutely right about not giving up easily after a few trials.    I personally can't wait to see the extensive, multi-month studies with hundreds of subjects across a spectrum of prior LDing experience on your device, of course with proper study controls like placebo controls.   After all, that's what a serious product would have, right?

Show us no-BS, clear data / results, performed with good science, and the LDing community will most likely flock to your product.   Can't wait to see the data.

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## SearcherTMR

Hi Tibor,
Since you are basically referring to my comments, I guess I have to reply...





> ...You tried to use some extremely simple electronics and very basic measurements during a few nights.... This is not a simple 1-2 days run....



Of course you are right about that. That's what we (basically I) did, and yes, that's not how a proper experiment should be done. But let me remind you that it was not supposed to be an experiment: It should be a simple replication of dr Voss's amazing success (77% lucidity induction in unexperienced subjects)! Her paper had us all believe that we could simply zap our prefrontal area with 40hz tACS and gain instant lucidity. Unfortunately, as you already know, this was simply dishonest on her part, not true at all, and none of us got instant lucidity. Actually if you read the thread carefully, some people did much more complicated devices than I did, but the results were always (apart from jeffg that used galantamine) zero in the short run of the trials. Of course if you keep experimenting there is always a possibility that at some point you will have good results, but personally, I don't have the time, the money or the knowledge ... I wish you good luck with that!





> .... I am talking about the real persistency, the real driving forces, and the big ideas about the future of Lucid Dreaming in your life particularly...



This was supposed to be an easy way to induce Lucidity!  That's why we are after it. If we are to try hard, persisting for a long time, then why go for tACS? Try DEILD or SSILD. Almost every lucid dream induction technique gives excellent results if you are persistent...





> Some of you mentioned, that I am for money, as well as the other companies...



Scientists like dr Voss do not sell devices. They pay for their experiments and they also pay for the results to get published...
 Developing and selling a product, is by definition for profit. But of course that's not bad - it's just something not allowed in this forum...  You can very well sell a product and be honest and legit unlike other companies.





> ... Why do not you join the LdreamM forum on FB? May be, there you could see much more experiments and measuring results, that are not yet on my website?...



And I was wandering where did thewolf16 find your last results... Thanks for letting us know - but I wonder: 1. Why don't you have a link for the FB page in your web site so it's easy for all to find?
2. Why is it a private forum? Why should this info be kept from everyone else?





> ... May be, LdreamM will not be able to induce LDs, but at least I tried seriously...



So, even after all those experiments, you still don't have persistent, good results... but I  really do hope that at some point you will, and you will share them with us!

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## thewolf16

> Nope, it didn't. 
> He admitted to use Galantamine as well, so all the success might very well be from it...



Sorry, i didn´t know that he used Galantamine as well. So we don´t know if all the success was from the tacs device or galantamine, you are right.





> I have read his whole website very carefully and with much interest, but it is obviously a typical FOR profit site, and although he says he started for himself, he now sells his device for 300$... that is FOR profit for sure...



It depends on how you define "for profit". It´s clear that he can´t send us a device for free. You have to count in the material costs, the effort to plan it and assemble all the prototypes and all the freetime he spends on this product. And we all have to pay bills. But mainly he do it for the lucid dreaming community, that´s for sure! 

My definition of "making profit" is to make big money for a luxurious life. Tibor isn´t after that! He´s not greedy like other companys, and that´s one of his attributes why i respect him and his work.





> The only info available in his web site is the opposite: the first nights his sleep quality was low, he woke up multiple times (WBTB) and had many lucids. But as the convenience increased, the LDs due to tACS alone became....zero. 
> Published in Nature Neuroscience: 77% induction rate with electrodes on the scalp at 40 Hertz-image.jpg
> It's actually strange he admits that: "...the number of Lucid Dreaming per night became zero using simple tACS stimuli." He says he is expecting the new electrodes but has no news about it. Was it in a blog or something you got these news? Anyway, we should keep in mind that he had similar success with the previous electrodes, but only in the beginning. When the excitement-discomfort factor was over and 40hz stimulation remained as the only factor, the success rate became consistent with every other honest tACS report: Zero...



You´re right. The first lucid dreams were because of the inconvenience effect and a resulting WBTB. When the convenience increased the lucid dreams decreased so he could tell that the lucid dreams were not a effect of the tacs stimulation. But he realized that the impedance of the electrodes was to high and he ordered different electrodes. Although he didn´t used it like Dr.Voss (he used it in the day, several hours before he slept) he had success: 2 LDs in the first night and 6 LDs in the second night. I know, it´s not a proof but a sign that it could work. In his latest facebook post he said that he spoke with a russian man who was experimenting with lucid dreaming induction as well. He told him that the recommendet frequency differs from person to person because anatomical differences. (



> "the 40 Hz for all of the people is simple ridiculous."



) That´s why further investigation and experimenting is important. You can see all of his newest updates on the official facebook-page, it´s very interesting to read. (hope it won´t be removed):

*** Link Removed ***





> Btw, Wolf16, you promised photos and a report as soon as you got the device from Luciding (which btw looks very much alike with this guys) but you posted nothing - apart from the brief "customer report" in Luciding FB. Did they forbid you to post here about it?



Oh sorry, i forget that. Well, what can i say? It was very dissapointing. They send us the version 1 of the headband. Almost everyone had a lucid dream in the first night (including me), but then it suddenly stopped working for almost everyone. Now i can say it just worked because of placebo or the unconvenience effect and the resulting WBTB, something which Tibor realized with his Ldreamm prototypes too. Luciding told us at first that the firmware was faulty. The founder of Luciding in person came to us customers to update the firmware. (which is highly unusual because it´s a very long trip from siberia to germany) But after they updated the FW it still didn´t worked for everyone. Then they told us it´s because a faulty batch of accumulators. Because Luciding couldn´t update my FW because of a faulty updater, they send me a new one with the new Firmware and even with a new accumulator (which was broken for the other customer; i was not the only one who received the new batch with new accumulators). When we got the new batch of Luciding devices it did worked again for the first night for almost everyone and then it suddenly stopped. They told us it´s because of the flexible boards (they have a very weak durability) and they are working on new, not flexible (and more durable) boards. Now we customers have to play the waiting game again until the new devices are ready.

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## regulator

Thanks for the report. Based on what you're saying it does seem as though there's some reason for hope. If every time whey send a new one it works the first night, then that suggests that there is a replicable effect there, even if something is preventing continued success (like a flexible PC board that breaks after one session of use). Fingers crossed, and thanks again for the report. Interesting stuff.

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## FryingMan

The time to get excited is if/when someone's *long-term* LD frequency jumps from say 20% to 80+%.   First night results can be basically thrown away.  With the devices so fragile to start with, it's entirely likely all results were pure placebo.

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## SearcherTMR

Hi Wolf,
Thanks for your update. Regarding Tibor's "for profit" comment, I totally agree with you. He seems very honest and hard working and I believe he is not going to sell a device until he has consistent good results - unlike "Luciding" of course...
As for his last results, I am already following him.
Regarding your device:




> ...They send us the version 1 of the headband...



..actually is version 20 or something. But of course with Luciding you have to reach version 100 or something to get anything useful...
And of course I have to agree with FryingMan that a lucid on the first night is expected due to excitement - bad sleep quality. So, we need MUUUUUCH more waiting... typical Luciding...  :;-):

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## regulator

> The time to get excited is if/when someone's *long-term* LD frequency jumps from say 20% to 80+%.   First night results can be basically thrown away.  With the devices so fragile to start with, it's entirely likely all results were pure placebo.



Well, I respectfully am not in agreement with most of this. YMMV, but I think even a jump from 20% to 40% would be pretty awesome. That's 5 LDs per month up to 10 LDs per month. I'll take that any day and be pretty stoked.

And yes, first night results are outliers, but when it's a *repeatable* "first night result", then it isn't exactly a first night result. If every time they get a new unit it works, then that seems to indicate that it isn't really a "first night" result. It's like if the batteries only lasted one night, and every night you replace them it works 80% of the time. Would you pass on purchasing the device because every night it's a "first night" result with the new batteries? Of course in this case what's going off isn't the batteries. It's something else. But whatever that something else is, it seems to be fixable much like dead batteries are fixable. 

I think we're in agreement that more testing needs to be done, but if in fact every time a new unit arrives it works for almost everyone that night, then to my mind that's a repeatable effect, and that's all I care about. I wouldn't want to have to buy a new one every night, but the hope is that whatever is getting busted in the units so quickly can get fixed.

And as for placebo, you might be right. But again, who cares? If it produces a repeatable effect, then I don't really care if that effect what due to the reason the manufacturer says, or because somehow it is able to produce a reliable placebo effect -- it manages to make me believe I'll LD in such a way that I actually do, even though the device itself isn't doing anything other than triggering the placebo, or whatever. If it works, I'll take it.

I think we all agree more testing is needed. But if it is in fact, as the report suggests, a repeatable effect (every time they use a new device it works), then that's really encouraging news.

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## LdreamM

> And as for placebo, you might be right. But again, who cares? If it produces a repeatable effect, then I don't really care if that effect what due to the reason the manufacturer says, or because somehow it is able to produce a reliable placebo effect -- it manages to make me believe I'll LD in such a way that I actually do, even though the device itself isn't doing anything other than triggering the placebo, or whatever. If it works, I'll take it.



Hi regulator, I understand your point, but… The first customers had LDs very likely just because of the unusual feeling on their haed. They could not have regular sleep, had frequent awakenings, which is a typical WBTB technique. If the device would work continually, than they would notice the lessening of this effect. The final result would be zero LD. When they got the new devices, it was AGAIN an unusual feeling, plus the placebo, which caused the LDs again. Because of the technical difficulties the users could not test it att many nights, so this “getting used” effect could not be experienced. I am using LdreamM headset more than 3 months regularly, every night. On the beginning I had LDs, as well, as the first customers of Luciding. But then: nothing. A few days ago I have changed the stimuli electrodes, and they caused inconveniency, which resulted again an LD! 
So, you can not count on this effect continually! This is an important point. Testing in many nights is a must for every LD induction devices.

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## FryingMan

@regulator: Fair enough re: "80+%."   But I was being conservative with the "LUCID DREAMS EVERY NIGHT!" claim -- 80+% is still generous.    Call it instead a "dramatic, sustained increase in LD frequency."

You should care about placebo, very much, as LdreamM points out.   Results due to placebo vanish very quickly in time.    

The results should also get you much more excited about your natural ability to LD: WBTB and intention/expectation are very, very powerful in producing LDs all on their own.   That I think is the most important takeaway from this information.   Not that we didn't know that already, but it's an excellent confirmation.   Which should be taken into account when considering the Voss study as well.

Additionally, you should be very concerned with companies like Luciding, which claim 100% success right out of the gate without having produced a single unit and without doing any studies.   They, and companies like them, potentially set back the entire industry by years, because they hype up the public and let them down.    It gets to the point where legitimate producers (see Oneirics, for example) can't get funding because the fraudsters who came before turned off the investor/enthusiast community.

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## SearcherTMR

Hi everyone!
Just wanted to give an important update-warning here, for everyone trying DIY tACS stimulation (as myself) or buying commercial devices (e.g. Dream catcher or Focus):
The guy behind the LdreamM headband (Tibor, also posting here) did a lot of trials on himself and came to realize that prolonged use of tACS stimulation (the kind drVoss used in her study) might in fact be dangerous! What he noticed was that after trying different stimulation protocols for some nights, he ceased to have REM sleep altogether (just delta waves the whole night) and this lasted for a whole week afterwards!  This might potentially be quite serious as REM sleep is valuable for proper health. Besides, he experienced nausea and heart pain for this whole period.
So, here is his warning and all the relevant info. 
Read carefully and take into consideration if you decide to keep on experimenting on yourself!


P.s. Please do not remove the link as his web page does NOT have items for sale. He is not selling (and won't sale in the near future) any device due to the health risk he spotted. Thank you.

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## IAmCoder

Yeah, I started exploring completely non-invasive methods after my attempts at trying to reproduce the findings, even shying away from vanilla electrodes for EEG. My uneducated guess is that the myelin sheaths can't regenerate.

Here are some more reviews from Motherboard - We Wore Electrodes to Bed to Induce Lucid Dreaming | Motherboard:




> Unfortunately, my experience was not quite so thrilling. Though the lucid dream program on the foc.us delivers a relatively low electrical current of 1.5 milliamps, it was too high for me. The electrodes immediately started to sting my skin and I had to take them off after about three seconds. So, I enlisted my less-sensitive coworkers to test it out, but the results were just as disappointing.
> 
> Adrianne Jeffries, our managing editor, clawed the electrodes off in her sleep. No lucid dreams for her. Editor in chief Derek Mead said the device made him feel really weird.
> 
> I've tried cranial stimulation devices before, so was more concerned about trying to fall asleep with wires everywhereI'm a terrible sleeper, and a thrasher I've heardthan getting zapped, but it was a bit weirder than I anticipated, Derek said. The current made my cheap LED bed lamp have a shutter effect I didn't expect, and after the first 10 minute session I didn't notice anything so I turned it off, hoping I'd stimmed myself enough. No dreams that night either, but I have enough wild dreams on my own.
> 
> Fellow staff writer Lorenzo Franceschi-Bicchierai said he thought it worked for him, maybe, but it was difficult to tell for sure.
> 
> I felt some sort of weird pain in my head, Lorenzo said. It was like someone was squishing my brain. When I fell asleep, I think I had a lucid dream, but I think my brain just wanted to believe I had a lucid dream. I dont remember what it was about.
> ...

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## Venryx

> As mentioned I don't know the exact details of how electrical signals move across the brain, but if a nerve carries an electrical signal, then this signal has a frequency. If that frequency, in a nerve connected to hearing, actually differs from the frequency of the vibration, then this implies a transducing metod of greater complexity than needed (a loudspeaker is really very simple). Maybe the human body is actually like that (this would mean that we humans have actually beaten evolution at something  ), but do we really know what the frequency-spectrum of the signals in the acoustic nerves are like?
> 
> However, if brainwave entrainment is a reality, then there must be some way to translate the acoustic signal to an electrical one. The Monroe Institute has been preaching for thirty years that this is indeed possible.
> 
> Anyone with an EEG-device should be able to test this easily. Put a 40Hz signal on the stereo, and measure then EEG at the same time. If the 40Hz signal shows up in the EEG, then it would be a strong indication that entrainment took place. Next, try with other frequencies.



This isn't exactly what you were asking for (it's about binaural beats specifically, and is rather limited in range-tested/scope), but it's similar: Do Binaural Beats Really Affect Brainwaves?*

EDIT: Oh wow. I read the first page, and thought that was the second most-recent post. My apologies for responding to a post 12 pages back. : P   (though I'll leave it up since it's somewhat related anyway)

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## SearcherTMR

> Yeah, I started exploring completely non-invasive methods after my attempts at trying to reproduce the findings, even shying away from vanilla electrodes for EEG. My uneducated guess is that the myelin sheaths can't regenerate.



Hi Michael,
so, you didn't manage to replicate Jeff's success with tACS - if I understood correctly. That's one more with zero results, correct?
I am not sure why you guess though, that the myelin sheath can't regenerate. 
Can you expand a bit in that - what do you mean?

@Venryx: yea, the thread has gone a looooong way since then! Actually none of the original posters (including Voldmer) is active in the thread anymore. But yes, that was an interesting research. It confirmed for me my observation that binaural beats are ineffective. Thanks. 
The problem is that tACS also appears to be ineffective - and perhaps dangerous - despite the initial hope to the contrary...

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## IAmCoder

Correct. But I shouldn't have expected results in agreement with Tibor's insights.

I can't expand on the myelin sheath degradation... that is just what my brain felt like on the inside after zapping. And what I imagined would happen to electrical wiring after exposure to too much current.

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## SearcherTMR

^^ Thanks for the clarifications. 
I think you described your feeling and guess quite well, it's a plausible theory :;-): 
Let's see what we get with Mag-stim now...

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## FryingMan

> Ok, both factors were affected by the stimulation - but look more close as they say for magic tricks...
> Insight and dissociation ratings were indeed increased by the stimulation - and 70% of the dreams were rated as "Lucid".
> But was the increase enough to induce lucidity? Unfortunately no...
> The LUCID scale was created by Voss herself and the ratings were 0-5 for each factor (strongly disagree to strongly agree) and for the single most significant factor for lucidity  (insight that one is dreaming - that actually defines LDs) non lucids averaged 1 and lucids 3:
> Attachment 8808
> So, were ratings of 3 (or above) reached with 40hz stimulation for the factor "insight"?
> Nope... it remained less than 1 (!!!)... that is : strongly disagree that I now that I am dreaming....
> Attachment 8807
> Statistically significant increase with the stimulation - yes, but clinically and practically totally insignificant... I am sorry but that's the truth about it.
> ...



So let me see what I think these charts mean.   I think this part is amazing.

Completely ignoring the stimulation, only discussing the scale: 

For people who had non-lucid dreams, they rated "insight" below 1 on a scale of 0 to 5.
For people who had lucid dreams, they rated "insight" 3 and above.

Now, for the study with tACS stimulation:

People who had placebo devices reported insight close to zero for their dreams.
People who had stimulation, the highest insight score, with the 40Hz stimulation, reported insight of about 0.6, or _the insight of a non-lucid dream, according to Voss's own scale_.

And she claims "70% lucid dream induction!?!?"    I'm flabbergasted.

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## SearcherTMR

^^ Amazing indeed... also amazing to speculate how many people are fooled, how many people have start and will start making tACS devices (and related businesses) thinking its the holy grail of Lucid Dreaming...
So, how can she possibly claim 70% induction rate?
Well, she includes a (small lettering) paragraph at the end of the study, labeled: " Assumption of Lucidity" Where she defines  Lucidity (in direct contradiction with her previous studies) as " elevated ratings (>mean + 2 s.e.) on either factor (insight or dissociation).
This practically means that if a subject reported slightly higher score than the mean score, the dream was labeled "Lucid" - even if the mean score was 0,3 and this dream had scored 0,6.... amazing, and really annoying to realize, isn't it....

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