# Sleep and Dreams > Sleep and Health >  >  Strange sleep occurence (Melatonin + Valerian)

## DarkestDarkness

Note, my sleep is naturally poor either because of my health condition or as an effect of it. This is the main reason I take sleep supplements, not because of dreaming, the dreaming part is improved by better sleep in my case, so it's mostly a happy coincidence that I can receive both effects.

For background, I have taken Melatonin 1mg for a long time (I used to take 2mg but I can't source it reliably enough to last me long enough) and when I haven't been able to source Melatonin, I simply had Valerian supplements instead (530mg) or a sleep time tea instead. Currently I am pretty much just taking Melatonin again, but recently made the mistake of having some sleep time tea that has Valerian in it, and other things, which I should probably list too; oat flowering tops, licorice root, chamomile flower, lavender flower, limeflower and tulsi leaf. I have never taken any of these other ingredients of the tea separately/on their own so I am not familiar with their individual effects (if any) on my sleep.


Now, what did I mean by the mistake bit? Well, the thing is, whenever I'm on a regular Melatonin dosage, if or when I have Valerian on the same night, I have super strange sleep for that night. I continuously wake up through the night feeling somewhat heavy, angry and horny (including the side effects of that); on the first awakening it's not so bad, but as it keeps happening through the night I start to feel more and more aggravated and the waking periods seem to last longer.

Another side-effect is that my sleep becomes literally... dreamless. It's not that I don't remember my dreaming, it's that it doesn't happen. And I know I'm not dreaming either because I do check when this happens. One of the very first things I tend to do with these waking periods because it's such a bizarre experience. 

All of this makes me feel like when I should be in REM phases, I am just waking up feeling as  previously described. It really screws up my sleep. The following  morning I always feel that I have slept horribly. 

From all I know, taking these two things together shouldn't really be screwing with my sleep so much, especially since I don't take as much Melatonin as I used to ages ago and I've known people to take way more than 1mg, but it does happen and I don't really know what's going on exactly... I obviously avoid the combination but sometimes still make this occasional mistake involving the tea.


Have you ever had this happen to you, or heard about it happening? Either with this combination of supplements or another.

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## michael79

I'm in the same boat as you, a lot of insomnia and anxiety. In my better days I was also taking melatonin, but I found that 1mg is too weak and 3mg fast release is too strong but holds only 4 hours, so I recommend you 3mg long release melatonin together with 10-25mg B6, but don't mix them with valerian. Valerian and melatonin have some contradiction with each other, so you took melatonin OR valerian with B6. Other things I have tried are Lemon Balm and L-Theanine. If you want super vivid dreams take Valerian, Lemon Balm and Peppermint tea together with 25mg b6.

These days I take benzo with antihistamines with melatonin just to stay asleep, which of course hurt my lucidity ten folds.

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## DarkestDarkness

Benzo? Not sure which you are referring to since it's a prefix for a few things. L-Theanine does nothing at all for me, don't know why; I tried it for some time as a substitute for Melatonin when I couldn't get any and it didn't help either with sleep nor dreaming.

And thank you for your reply, it's good to hear that it is a known thing, as I haven't found reference to it before on other posts or from other sources (but maybe I searched with poor keywords). Also appreciate the vivid dreams combo suggestion, I will look into it in the future I think, as I don't think I have ever tried B6 or Lemon Balm; also been seeing people mention Mugwort but I need to read up on some of these things again in the meantime.

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## Hilary

> Benzo? Not sure which you are referring to since it's a prefix for a few things. L-Theanine does nothing at all for me, don't know why; I tried it for some time as a substitute for Melatonin when I couldn't get any and it didn't help either with sleep nor dreaming.
> 
> And thank you for your reply, it's good to hear that it is a known thing, as I haven't found reference to it before on other posts or from other sources (but maybe I searched with poor keywords). Also appreciate the vivid dreams combo suggestion, I will look into it in the future I think, as I don't think I have ever tried B6 or Lemon Balm; also been seeing people mention Mugwort but I need to read up on some of these things again in the meantime.



I can attest to mugwort being great for dream recall. It will increase vividness. It has the same chemical component in absinthe (thujone), however, in much smaller amounts. It is a cousin to Wormwood, which they make absinthe from. So it's not hocus pocus, it really does work. Try a WBTB with 2 cups of mugwort tea...


I love valerian root, but have not noticed an effect on dreams. But oh my gosh.. does that stuff stink!

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## DarkestDarkness

After quite a bit of a long read on the subject of mugwort and thujone, I am not certain that it's something I could take currently anyway.

I take pregabalin and cyclobenzaprine besides the melatonin. Pregabalin and cyclobenzaprine are not even recommended pairs (because the former is a CNS depressant and the latter shouldn't be combined with those because of co-potentiating effect as I understand) but I take them by my doctor's orders and I'm not sure the two would further combine well with thujone, which sounds like it acts (generally speaking) in the opposing direction, especially in regards to pregabalin; while my understanding is that none of these act on the exact same receptors, the net effects all seem like they're closely related to one another to me and I'm otherwise unfamiliar with mugwort, so I'm not sure how safe this would be for me to try currently.

While I do drink tea regularly which is a CNS stimulant (contains theine, aka caffeine) I already know this to not have any adverse interaction with my medications. Oddly enough, instant coffee can make me subjectively feel as though it can improve my sleep/dreaming but by the normal workings of things it probably shouldn't.  ::undecided:: 


In any case, I have been unable to find even anecdotal evidence online of anyone who's taken both of these medications (plus melatonin on top) together with mugwort/thujone and I don't personally know anyone who can attest to it either, so it's just a huge question mark for me, especially given how potent some people make it sound like mugwort tea can be on its own.  In my mind it's possible that it's not even the thujone in mugwort that has this effect, since it has other chemicals of the same class or related class present in it, and thujone is otherwise found in other herbs such as oregano and common sage which I already use heavily in seasoning. I suppose I don't know the relevant concentrations, but still.

This has already taken quite a turn from what I initially had in mind. Honestly, sometimes I wish I was just filthy rich and had the money to pay a bunch of researchers to look into these things for me.  ::deal::   :Sad:  Or just use such money to have the equipment to do the research myself.  :Cheeky: 

One can only dream...  ::chuckle::

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## Hilary

Yeah I wouldn't touch it if I had medications like that. It's a shame you have to take those. Those sound like things for something quite serious. Hope you're feeling better.

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## monsa199a

> I can attest to mugwort being great for dream recall. It will increase vividness. It has the same chemical component in absinthe (thujone), however, in much smaller amounts. It is a cousin to Wormwood, which they make absinthe from. So it's not hocus pocus, it really does work. Try a WBTB with 2 cups of mugwort tea...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love valerian root, but have not noticed an effect on dreams. But oh my gosh.. does that stuff stink!




...that's why in Spanish we say: "ooof que valeriana!" referring to the feet odor...pee yew! ::chuckle:: 
...and yes I'm doing an extra charged mugwort since I harvested..
Lemon grass is best in flavor, for relaxation, and dream vividness!

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## michael79

> After quite a bit of a long read on the subject of mugwort and thujone, I am not certain that it's something I could take currently anyway.
> 
> I take pregabalin and cyclobenzaprine besides the melatonin. Pregabalin and cyclobenzaprine are not even recommended pairs (because the former is a CNS depressant and the latter shouldn't be combined with those because of co-potentiating effect as I understand) but I take them by my doctor's orders and I'm not sure the two would further combine well with thujone, which sounds like it acts (generally speaking) in the opposing direction, especially in regards to pregabalin; while my understanding is that none of these act on the exact same receptors, the net effects all seem like they're closely related to one another to me and I'm otherwise unfamiliar with mugwort, so I'm not sure how safe this would be for me to try currently.
> 
> While I do drink tea regularly which is a CNS stimulant (contains theine, aka caffeine) I already know this to not have any adverse interaction with my medications. Oddly enough, instant coffee can make me subjectively feel as though it can improve my sleep/dreaming but by the normal workings of things it probably shouldn't.



You take those two and still have insomnia ::shock::  You must suffer from a lot of musculoskeletal pain. Once I made the mistake to take pregabalin with klonopin(benzo) and had straight 16 hours of dreamless sleep it was very scary, it was like I lost consciousness.

Caffeine increase vividness and awareness,  b6 increase vividness too, in my country for pain they always prescribe b1+b6+b12 combination for pain, so you can ask your doctor for that, this was the first time I felt the potential of b6 for lucidity.

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## DarkestDarkness

> You take those two and still have insomnia You must suffer from a lot of musculoskeletal pain. Once I made the mistake to take pregabalin with klonopin(benzo) and had straight 16 hours of dreamless sleep it was very scary, it was like I lost consciousness.
> 
> Caffeine increase vividness and awareness,  b6 increase vividness too, in my country for pain they always prescribe b1+b6+b12 combination for pain, so you can ask your doctor for that, this was the first time I felt the potential of b6 for lucidity.



Dreamless sleep is very weird yeah and that's interesting about all the B's, thanks for that info. It's never been a suggested course for me before, so I'll look into it.

I had to look up insomnia again when I read your reply, because I'd kind of not realised that a lot of my issues actually fall into its technical definition.  :Picard face palm:  In my mind insomnia was just when you literally couldn't sleep at all through an entire night but I see now that is a bit more general than that.

But yes to clarify a bit further, I do have a lot of musculoskeletal pain indeed and my sleep is not naturally restorative; the cyclobenzaprine and the melatonin help just enough with that part to improve my mood considerably and therefore my overall pain tolerance too.

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## DarkestDarkness

> (...) and that's interesting about all the B's, thanks for that info. It's never been a suggested course for me before, so I'll look into it.







> Caffeine increase vividness and awareness,  b6 increase vividness too, in my country for pain they always prescribe b1+b6+b12 combination for pain, so you can ask your doctor for that, this was the first time I felt the potential of b6 for lucidity.



Small update on my part here. I did get some multi-vitamin B complex thing after having read up on the B's for a while and this past night felt the effects of the vividness increase from taking it for the first time. They were just much more vivid and overall detailed than I expected (DJ link), though my dreams seemed a lot more changeable too, though I don't know if that's just because I recalled a lot more anyway.

I'll have to see as time goes by whether or not it helps with my other issues but the dream experience was generally quite enjoyable and I'd almost say I had recall of too many dreams.  :tongue2:

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## michael79

B-complex in small dosage can help you about vividness and only the b-complex in large dosage can help for your other issues, but the large dosage drug can only be prescribed by a doctor to you, in my country one of the variations of the drug is called "Milgamma N".

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