# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity > Wake Initiated Lucid Dreams (WILD) >  >  Sleep Paralysis Demystified

## Mzzkc

*De-Orientaton*
If you’re like most DVers, you’ve probably read about a little condition called “SP.” You know: that thing that has something to do with flashing lights, crazy hallucinations, and not being able to move.

You probably know it happens to people every night as they're falling asleep and ten-odd other factoids.

Well, for the remainder of this guide, I need you to forget everything you think you _know_ about “SP.”

Why? 

Because most of that “knowledge” is either wrong or misconstrued. Harsh, but the truth hurts sometimes.

Most everything you’ve read is rhetoric passed down from LDer to LDer in a nice long game of telephone. And just like any game of telephone, things got muddled up along the way. Lucky for you, I’m here to help you wade through all the muck and make you understand what these sensations are all about.

So. . . with all that in mind, let’s start fresh.
__________________________________________________
*Sleep Paralysis*


_What is sleep paralysis?_
The term sleep paralysis is used to describe *a condition wherein a person is conscious during REM atonia.*

Typical symptoms include *full body paralysis, a sense of dread/fear, and flashing lights.*

About *a quarter of the world’s population has experienced sleep paralysis* at least once in their lives. A much *smaller percent suffers from chronic episodes*.

_When does sleep paralysis occur?_
Barring abnormalities, *sleep paralysis occurs only during the REM phase of sleep.*

As such, *during a normal WILD attempt, you will not experience sleep paralysis.* This is because *REM atonia*--a fancy way of referring to full-body paralysis during REM--*only triggers after REM has begun.* By that point, *a dream will have already formed* and you’ll have lost consciousness.

_Why does sleep paralysis occur?_
As the REM stage begins, a certain set of neurotransmitters stop being released. As a result, *the motor neurons cease passing along messages and you end up with full-body paralysis.* This is pretty handy from an evolutionary standpoint, as it *prevents you from acting out your dreams and potentially killing yourself.*

That explains the REM atonia aspect. Unfortunately, I’m not entirely up to speed on causes for the flashing lights and sense of danger. If I had to hypothesize, I’d guess it has something to do with the reactivation or reduced function of certain areas of the brain. Particularly those responsible for base emotions like fear and 'higher' functions like vision.

The amygdala, for instance, shows decreased activity during sleep (according to various studies).

In contrast, the occipital lobes reveal drastically increased activity during REM.

Or you could throw all that science out the window and explain it with witchcraft or demonic possession like they did in the good ol' days. I won’t judge.
__________________________________________________
*NREM Sleep ~ a.k.a. Lifting the Fog*


_If sleep paralysis doesn’t occur when WILDing, how do you account for all the strange experiences people report during WILD attempts?_
I wrote up a decent *breakdown of a typical WILD progression.* It’s a brief reference that details the stages of sleep and associates each with specific sensations.

*Read over it to get a better understanding of how a WILD works* and what conscious experiences you can expect.

_If that’s the case, what’s a good replacement for the commonly used (and inherently confusing) term “SP”?_
Notice *every sensation* (HH, vibrations, sensory deprivation, etc.) except full-body paralysis *occurs during NREM sleep.*

As such, when you see folks “trying to reach SP”--and they make a big deal out of seeing HH or vibrations--it’s more accurate to say they are “trying to reach [or pass through] NREM.”

Therefore, *“NREM” is an excellent alternative to the commonly used term “SP.”* And I implore you to *use it and spread the word to those still holing onto the old terminology.*
__________________________________________________
*Conclusion*

It can be confusing trying to wrap your head around these ideas. If you’re already ingrained in the incorrect way of thinking about sleep paralysis and NREM, that makes it even harder. 

Hopefully this guide has helped clear away the fog for you, but If you have any outstanding questions please don't hesitate to ask!

Cheers.

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## Sandyman

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

This might be a bit off-topic, but do you also know anything about NREM-dreams?

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## Lichi

It's nice to have this concept clarified. I sensed some things weird about this in many explanations people said. For example: a guy said that in order to achieve WILD we had to pass the NREM stage being conscious. In order to do that you have to lower your consciousness to the minimum and be totally relaxed and you will feel sleep paralysis. However in another site I read that during NREM stage people may experience sleepwalk since the body is doesn't paralyses, and if you think for a moment that is completely truth. Therefore that guy is wrong, which I realized and made my head to puzzle. But now you came with that explanation and clarified all. Thanks  :smiley:

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## Ctharlhie

Thank you so much for trying to clear up the misconceptions surrounding WILD, this should be stickied at the very least.

For myself, I have never experienced 'SP' during WILD attempts, and I experience other symptoms that most DVers would associate with 'SP' very early on, things like illogical thoughts and dream imagery, while I rarely experience hypnagogic phosphenes and have never felt vibrations. People need to realise that everyone is different and there's no right way to WILD.

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## Mzzkc

Thanks for the support guys. Glad you could appreciate the piece.





> Ah, thanks for the clarification.
> 
> This might be a bit off-topic, but do you also know anything about NREM-dreams?



No worries.

Dreams can happen during any stage of sleep, but I'm not sure on the actual distribution. NREM dreams tend to be less vivid than REM dreams, tending more toward the abstract.

They can pop up during WILDs and have the propensity for transitioning into REM dreams, so you might not even realize you've had one. 

I haven't done a ton of research on NREM dreams outside of what's commonly known, so I'm not the best person to ask about those. But hopefully that helped a bit.

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## OneiroMoon

> Barring abnormalities, *sleep paralysis occurs only during the REM phase of sleep.*
> 
> As such, *during a normal WILD attempt, you will not experience sleep paralysis.* This is because *REM atonia*--a fancy way of referring to full-body paralysis during REM--*only triggers after REM has begun.* By that point, *a dream will have already formed* and youll have lost consciousness.



Maybe I am an abnormality, but according to my experiences with SP and WILDing, this is not true. I am *definitely* experiencing sleep paralysis right before I transition into WILDs. At first, I start to feel minor vibrations, without paralysis. These vibrations quickly intensify and become very strong, and at this point I am *completely unable to move*. This is without doubt SP, as I am aware during REM atonia. It then takes a few seconds for a dream to form, and I do not lose consciousness while in REM sleep until this happens.

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## Robot_Butler

> during a normal WILD attempt, you will not experience sleep paralysis. This is because REM atonia--a fancy way of referring to full-body paralysis during REM--only triggers after REM has begun. By that point, a dream will have already formed and you’ll have lost consciousness.



I think you are overlooking something crucial.  When we WILD, we are intentionally maintaining awareness.  In normal sleep, you will have lost consciousness by the time REM atonia happens.  During WILD, you maintain awareness and consciousness through all stages of sleep, until a dream occurs.  In cases where the dream starts in REM, you will experience sleep paralysis.  It is abnormal, but that is the whole point of WILD.  Since most vivid dreams happen during REM sleep, it makes sense that many people report experiencing sleep paralysis during the last stages of WILD.  

REM and dreaming are not always synched up exactly.  When REM hits before a dream begins, you may experience sleep paralysis.  When you become overly aware of your body while already in a dream, you may bounce out into sleep paralysis.

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## Sageous

> Maybe I am an abnormality, but according to my experiences with SP and WILDing, this is not true. I am *definitely* experiencing sleep paralysis right before I transition into WILDs. At first, I start to feel minor vibrations, without paralysis. These vibrations quickly intensify and become very strong, and at this point I am *completely unable to move*. This is without doubt SP, as I am aware during REM atonia. It then takes a few seconds for a dream to form, and I do not lose consciousness while in REM sleep until this happens.



Except that you're not "transitioning into WILDs."  WILD is the action of initiating a LD.  It is the entire thing you're doing, and has transitions within it, and not the other way around. If done correctly, you likely began your WILD long before you lay down, and certainly not long after. Semantics, maybe, but I think that might clarify why you're witnessing SP as your body physically succumbs to sleep.  Also, as you progress through the stages you'll feel changes, but once in REM you're dreaming, and you should not notice REM atonia -- in REM your consciousness is no longer paying attention to the state of your physical body.

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## Ctharlhie

> Except that you're not "transitioning into WILDs."  WILD is the action of initiating a LD.  It is the entire thing you're doing, and has transitions within it, and not the other way around. If done correctly, you likely began your WILD long before you lay down, and certainly not long after. Semantics, maybe, but I think that might clarify why you're witnessing SP as your body physically succumbs to sleep.  Also, as you progress through the stages you'll feel changes, but once in REM you're dreaming, and you should not notice REM atonia -- in REM your consciousness is no longer paying attention to the state of your physical body.



I would even venture to guess that you begin dissociating from your body a while before REM. It's weird, I can lie down for an afternoon nap, lay drifting for say 20 minutes and experience all sort of hypnagogic sensations, including phosphene imagery, mind eye imagery, dream imagery, dissociation from my body and shutting off of external stimuli, and yet get up and feel basically awake.
I don't even know where I am with WILD anymore.

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## OneiroMoon

> Except that you're not "transitioning into WILDs."  WILD is the action of initiating a LD.  It is the entire thing you're doing, and has transitions within it, and not the other way around. If done correctly, you likely began your WILD long before you lay down, and certainly not long after. Semantics, maybe, but I think that might clarify why you're witnessing SP as your body physically succumbs to sleep.



By "WILDs", I was referring to Wake Induced Lucid Dreams, i.e a type of lucid dreams. You can transition into a (Wake Induced) Lucid Dream. If you read my post carefully, you can see that I am describing the process of having a WILD as "WILDing".





> Also, as you progress through the stages you'll feel changes, but once in REM you're dreaming, and you should not notice REM atonia -- in REM your consciousness is no longer paying attention to the state of your physical body.



Read Robot_Butler's post. He too states that you can be in REM without immediately starting to dream, and that is the explanation to why I am experiencing sleep paralysis when I WILD. 

I can certainly be paying attention to my body when I am in REM sleep/REM atonia, but it will stop me from transitioning. Therefore, it is entirely my own decision to redirect my attention away from my physical body.

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## Sageous

> By "WILDs", I was referring to Wake Induced Lucid Dreams, i.e a type of lucid dreams. You can transition into a (Wake Induced) Lucid Dream. If you read my post carefully, you can see that I am describing the process of having a WILD as "WILDing".



Actually, the term is Wake _Initiated_ Lucid Dreams, as coined by LaBerge, which is a technique for _becoming_ lucid, and not the LD itself (though dreams resulting from WILD can differ from dreams resulting from, say DILD) . I too was talking about WILDing. And yes, I read your post as carefully as I could.  If you are WILDing into an LD, it should be occupying all of your time, and is not a thing to which you transition.






> Read Robot_Butler's post. He too states that you can be in REM without immediately starting to dream, and that is the explanation to why I am experiencing sleep paralysis when I WILD. 
> 
> I can certainly be paying attention to my body when I am in REM sleep/REM atonia, but it will stop me from transitioning. Therefore, it is entirely my own decision to redirect my attention away from my physical body.



Well, if Robot_Butler said it, it must be true!  Seriously, though, keep in mind that REM stands for Rapid Eye Movement, and that movement is caused by your eyes' following the action of a dream.  If you're experiencing REM before your dream, why are your eyes moving?  And if you can pay attention to your body during REM state, then you are a unique individual indeed!  Aside from "dreaming" of bathrooms when you have to pee or something similar, the connection between you and your sleeping body is nonexistant...normally.

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## Robot_Butler

> in REM your consciousness is no longer paying attention to the state of your physical body.



Hopefully.... but not always.  I can often still feel my body, even in vivid lucid dreams.  When I take galantamine/choline, it is especially aggravating. From what I've heard from countless other people, this seems to be fairly common.  





> If you're experiencing REM before your dream, why are your eyes moving?



Good example  :smiley:   Tons of beginners report problems during the final stages of WILD because their eyes start moving as they enter REM.  There must be two posts a week asking how to keep your eyes closed during WILD.

I agree that if you do everything correctly, your consciousness should be completely removed from your body by the time you hit REM.  I'm just pointing out that it is not always the case.  Most beginners do not do everything correctly.  I don't like guides that encourage; "Don't move, and wait for sleep paralysis," either.  I think sleep paralysis is a red herring.  Worse, I think it makes WILD more difficult.  We should be doing everything we can to avoid it.  The smoothest transitions are those where we never notice any of the physical changes in our bodies.  

It has always been a difficult subject.  We want to give good advice (Don't focus on your body), but we also have to troubleshoot individuals who are confused by the symptoms of sleep paralysis.  Too many squeaky wheels  :smiley: 

While the "correct" way to WILD is to direct your attention away from your body, it is not the only way.  Sleep paralysis is a commonly reported problem during WILD, and it would be silly to ignore it, or pretend it does not exist.

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## Mzzkc

@OneiroMoon & RobotButler:

You guys are right in your assertion that it's possible to experience sleep paralysis before a dream forms (there's a small number of reported cases). It's not the norm/average (hence the qualifier in the OP), but it _can_ happen. 

However, for the purposes of this guide, I wanted to make the differences between sleep paralysis and NREM experiences as distinct as possible. You're probably both well aware that most of the DV population lumps vibrations, hypnic jerks, and N1 stage HH into the "SP" terminology. They then wrongly postulate that fully body paralysis is the norm when WILDing.

What follows is hours of wasted effort trying to hit that elusive state of "SP" with its hundreds [sic] of crazy side-effects, when really they should be focusing on passing through multiple states of consciousness, i.e. NREM sleep.

These are dreams and wetware we're dealing with, so admittedly things aren't cut and dry. But we shouldn't force ambiguity on people who are trying to learn a subject for practical purposes.

I do appreciate the deeper discussion going on here, and I hope to address some specific points soon, but this was intended as a simple, clear guide for beginners and people who are unaware that intense fear, paralysis, and alien probing aren't the norm when WILDing.

_______


As an aside: I'm not convinced that reports of eye movements and having difficulty shutting the eyes can be linked to REM states. I've had those issues before and they don't tend to pop up anywhere near the REM state. What's more, I can usually trace them back to something self induced.

_______






> Sleep paralysis is a commonly reported problem during WILD, and it would be silly to ignore it, or pretend it does not exist.



Not really. In all the years I've been here, and the hundreds of "SP threads" I've looked into, only a handful of them dealt with sleep paralysis. The large majority were people confused about why they could move, that they felt numbness and tingling,  and a myriad of other issues that had absolutely nothing to do with sleep paralysis.

I constantly find myself trying to teach people the difference between "HOLY SHIT I CANNOT MOVE AND THERE ARE STROBE DEMONS EATING MY FEET!" and "Suddenly my body is vibrating all crazy-like and my senses are going super fuzzy. Oh look! Dream imagery!"

Hence why I put this thread together. 

I don't write guides just for the sake of it; I write them to address common misconceptions or to teach something new that there isn't much/any reference material for.

A good friend of mine suffers from sleep paralysis regularly, and I've had a bought of it myself. It's a terrifying, intense experience, even if you know what's going on. Once you have first hand experience with full-blown sleep paralysis, it's trivial to pick out the difference between that and the common WILD experience.

_______






> Hopefully.... but not always. I can often still feel my body, even in vivid lucid dreams. When I take galantamine/choline, it is especially aggravating. From what I've heard from countless other people, this seems to be fairly common.



I actually wanted to touch on this in the OP, but felt it might be somewhat extraneous. There are tons of reports out there of people being unable to move after they complete the transition and having difficulty breaking out of that. Those experiences alone are excellent examples of being intrinsically aware of the body's state while dreaming. 

Plus they tie into the whole REM atonia discussion, and the fine-line between the onset of paralysis and dream formation.

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## Despierto

> As such, during a normal WILD attempt, you will not experience sleep paralysis. This is because REM atonia--a fancy way of referring to full-body paralysis during REM--only triggers after REM has begun. By that point, a dream will have already formed and you’ll have lost consciousness.



The times I've tried to wild on a nap I've been fully concious when the sp has hitten me and I didn't enter a dream.. Which means I did enter rem from reality-conciousness. My eyes started to move around like crazy and I felt, yea all these other SP characteristic feelings(though without any HH,HI)
But as soon as my eyes started to move around uncontrollably I ofc snapped out of the state.

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## Linkzelda

Bookmarked this, now I have more stuff to telephone in the Newbies thread when I'm bored and want to help  :tongue2: .

Thanks for the effort you put into this, Mzzkc.

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## Mzzkc

> The times I've tried to wild on a nap I've been fully concious when the sp has hitten me and I didn't enter a dream.. Which means I did enter rem from reality-conciousness. My eyes started to move around like crazy and I felt, yea all these other SP characteristic feelings(though without any HH,HI)
> But as soon as my eyes started to move around uncontrollably I ofc snapped out of the state.



Was it the most, or one of the most, terrifying experiences of your life?

'Cause if not, then it probably wasn't sleep paralysis. Especially if there was a lack of open-eyed HH/HI.

People need to keep in mind, when sleep paralysis hits, there isn't any snapping out of it. Your motor neurons aren't sending messages and you will not be able to move anything except your eyes. Diagnosing your experience as SP when it didn't involve extreme fear and intense hallucinations is really stretching it, since that's part of the broader definition.

This rapid eye movement thing is also a bit of a misnomer, as studies done on sleep paralysis show victims have full control of their eyes and eyelids. Really, the only way you can say for sure you were in a REM state is if you're hooked up to an EEG when those "involuntary" eye movements start to happen.

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## OneiroMoon

Mzzkc, I now understand what you mean. I thought that most people experience SP when WILDing, but it seems to be the other way around. From now on, I will tell people not to think about SP, as it is not always needed in order to WILD.

---------------------------------------------

Sageous, this is my last reply to our discussion.





> Actually, the term is Wake Initiated Lucid Dreams, as coined by LaBerge, which is a technique for becoming lucid, and not the LD itself (though dreams resulting from WILD can differ from dreams resulting from, say DILD) . I too was talking about WILDing. And yes, I read your post as carefully as I could. If you are WILDing into an LD, it should be occupying all of your time, and is not a thing to which you transition.



Sorry, I have seen both  "Induced" and  "Initiated" being used, so I assumed that both were correct. Though, I will continue to use "WILD" as a noun when I decide it is needed.  





> Well, if Robot_Butler said it, it must be true! Seriously, though, keep in mind that REM stands for Rapid Eye Movement, and that movement is caused by your eyes' following the action of a dream. If you're experiencing REM before your dream, why are your eyes moving? And if you can pay attention to your body during REM state, then you are a unique individual indeed! Aside from "dreaming" of bathrooms when you have to pee or something similar, the connection between you and your sleeping body is nonexistant...normally.



I referred to his post, because he described what I meant much better than I did. Again, you can be in REM sleep without being dreaming.  You are aware while in REM atonia, and this state is called sleep paralysis (which is hard not paying attention to). I already know what REM stands for, and why the eyes move during dreams. The _REM sleep phase_ may be named after the eye movements that occur when dreaming, but that does not mean that you _must_ be dreaming in order to be in REM sleep.

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## Despierto

> Was it the most, or one of the most, terrifying experiences of your life?
> 
> 'Cause if not, then it probably wasn't sleep paralysis. Especially if there was a lack of open-eyed HH/HI.
> 
> People need to keep in mind, when sleep paralysis hits, there isn't any snapping out of it. Your motor neurons aren't sending messages and you will not be able to move anything except your eyes. Diagnosing your experience as SP when it didn't involve extreme fear and intense hallucinations is really stretching it, since that's part of the broader definition.
> 
> This rapid eye movement thing is also a bit of a misnomer, as studies done on sleep paralysis show victims have full control of their eyes and eyelids. Really, the only way you can say for sure you were in a REM state is if you're hooked up to an EEG when those "involuntary" eye movements start to happen.



Yea, ok I guess.
No it wasn't so scary at all actually. Also I have been in real SP(waking up inside it) but it was before I knew anything about lucid dreaming or sleep paralysis. It was indeed the scariest thing that ever happened to me, I will not forget that night  :tongue2:  And what I explained to you that I got was not like it at all. But it's weird that I get these "involuntary" eye movements. It's like entering REM without sleep paralysis  :tongue2:  But I guess thats not possible. So I really don't know whats causing the vibrations+...Rapid eye movements.

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## Sageous

> Sageous, this is my last reply to our discussion.



Sorry I annoyed you, Oneiromoon; it was not intended.  I guess I was being a bit snarky, and that wasn't fair. Or nice.  I'll be more careful next time, should I find you in a different conversation I hope you'll be willing to discuss other things with me in the future. 

 I'm done with this thread anyway, as Mzzkc has a much better handle on this stuff than I do.

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## nina

I feel like there is a lot of misinformation in this thread and I flat out disagree with some of the things being proclaimed here, but I'm too tired at the moment to attempt to clear any of it up. I'll try to come back later.

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## Mzzkc

> I feel like there is a lot of misinformation in this thread and I flat out disagree with some of the things being proclaimed here, but I'm too tired at the moment to attempt to clear any of it up. I'll try to come back later.




I'd be happy to address your concerns and point you to references if you'd like.

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## hermine_hesse

> Was it the most, or one of the most, terrifying experiences of your life?
> 
> 'Cause if not, then it probably wasn't sleep paralysis. Especially if there was a lack of open-eyed HH/HI.
> 
> People need to keep in mind, when sleep paralysis hits, there isn't any snapping out of it. Your motor neurons aren't sending messages and you will not be able to move anything except your eyes. Diagnosing your experience as SP when it didn't involve extreme fear and intense hallucinations is really stretching it, since that's part of the broader definition.



I suffered from chronic episodes of sleep paralysis for about ten years.  When it first started, I would suddenly wake up in the middle of the night.  Without reason, I would instantly be overcome with an overwhelming and visceral terror.  I wanted to scream or jump out of bed, but would be completely unable make a sound or move anything but my eyes no matter how hard I tried.  I would then look to my bedroom doorway and see a figure made of black shadows with red eyes standing at the doorway.  Eventually, as the episodes became more frequent, the shadow figure would float above me and I would feel an intense pressure on my chest.

Although I believe lucid dreaming and sleep paralysis may be linked in the sense that sufferers of chronic episodes of sleep paralysis may be more likely to be lucid dreamers also, only once in my ten years of experiencing sleep paralysis did I have it link to a lucid dream.  WILDs always occur at the onset of sleep, while SP (for me at least) would happen in the middle of a sleep period.  It has always bothered me how people lump these two distinct phenomena into one term.  I think when WILDing, what people are calling SP is body dissociation.  Not being able to move because you can't feel your body is completely different from feeling your body and not being able to move.

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## dms111

Sleep paralysis is not a perfect term to use, but it is not incorrect when used on this forum. If anyone is incorrect it's the people who think sleep paralysis must be accompanied by a sense of terror. Sleep paralysis as described by the people on the typical sleep/health forums is incorrect. Sleep paralysis as a *medical term* is incorrect. How many sleep health doctors have actually learned to induce sleep paralysis on purpose to study it first hand? Not very many. They rely on the descriptions given by patients who are even more ignorant than they are.

If what you say is true then every time I WILD I pass through a few seconds of NREM sleep. Even if I've already slept for nine hours? NREM should be completely finished by that point. After that much sleep I pass from waking straight into REM sleep. And I can still get all the sensations that you're describing as NREM. As well as the total paralysis that you say doesn't occur during NREM.

I too want to demystify sleep paralysis. But replacing a commonly used and misunderstood term with another commonly used and possibly misunderstood term does not seem like a step in the right direction. I'd rather teach people what sleep paralysis really is.

When we perform a WILD our brain is asleep, yet we are still aware of ourselves. That's what it's all about. And that's exactly what happens to a person when they experience sleep paralysis the old fashioned way. Their awareness of themselves is awake while the rest of their brain is still asleep. Just like a WILD. But the average person doesn't know what's happening and panics. They aren't aware that a little mental discipline can allow them to control the sensations or to simply return to sleep.

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## Ctharlhie

> If what you say is true then every time I WILD I pass through a few seconds of NREM sleep. Even if I've already slept for nine hours? NREM should be completely finished by that point. After that much sleep I pass from waking straight into REM sleep. And I can still get all the sensations that you're describing as NREM. As well as the total paralysis that you say doesn't occur during NREM.



Sorry but this is just false. Every time you go to sleep you go through NREM, that goes for after brief nighttime awakenings, too. As Mzzkc outlines in the OP, much of the phenomena associated with 'REM transitions' occurs in stage 1. It's a misnomer that by WILDing during WBTB you've 'gotten NREM out of the way' as NonREM occurs throughout the night, only stage 3 ceases after several sleep cycles.

the course of a sleep cycle could be seen as Wakefulness->stage 1->stage 2->stage 3->stage 2->REM->brief awakening->Stage 1... etc. etc.

I think probably a lot of Oneironauts _do_ experience REM when they WILD, but most unsuccessful newbies trying to WILD are seeking to induce what amounts to a fiction created through an elaborate game of chinese whispers.

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## dms111

> Sorry but this is just false. Every time you go to sleep you go through NREM, that goes for after brief nighttime awakenings, too. As Mzzkc outlines in the OP, much of the phenomena associated with 'REM transitions' occurs in stage 1. It's a misnomer that by WILDing during WBTB you've 'gotten NREM out of the way' as NonREM occurs throughout the night, only stage 3 ceases after several sleep cycles.



I wasn't talking about a WBTB. I was talking about sleeping for _nine hours_, waking and immediately returning to sleep. I can feel SP take hold, I am very much paralyzed, and a dream begins to form immediately and after a few seconds I'm totally immersed in a dream. So where is the NREM?

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## Sageous

^^ NREM can occur during _any_ transition back to sleep, even if you're doing WBTB after 19 hours, much less nine. It might be short, but can happen.

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## Mzzkc

> I wasn't talking about a WBTB. I was talking about sleeping for _nine hours_, waking and immediately returning to sleep. I can feel SP take hold, I am very much paralyzed, and a dream begins to form immediately and after a few seconds I'm totally immersed in a dream. So where is the NREM?



Right where it should be. See for yourself.



You're still going to hit N1 and N2 sleep, no matter how far into things you are. Objectively, that's just how things work.





> Sleep paralysis is not a perfect term to use, but it is not incorrect when used on this forum. If anyone is incorrect it's the people who think sleep paralysis must be accompanied by a sense of terror. Sleep paralysis as described by the people on the typical sleep/health forums is incorrect. Sleep paralysis as a *medical term* is incorrect. How many sleep health doctors have actually learned to induce sleep paralysis on purpose to study it first hand? Not very many. They rely on the descriptions given by patients who are even more ignorant than they are.



Are you a "sleep health doctor" by chance? If so, I'd love to see where you acquired this information.

I'll admit, most everything I wrote about above comes from common knowledge, researching a few scientific sources, basic Psychology, and testimonials from knowledgeable people with the chronic condition. If you've got some peer reviewed work that blows all that out of the water, feel free to cite it.





> I too want to demystify sleep paralysis. But replacing a commonly used and misunderstood term with another commonly used and possibly misunderstood term does not seem like a step in the right direction. I'd rather teach people what sleep paralysis really is.



Sleep paralysis is full body paralysis caused by REM atonia. I've listed common symptoms above.

Sleep paralysis _isn't_ characterized by the sensations that occur in NREM sleep. 

Therefore, to call NREM sensations sleep paralysis is wholly incorrect and inaccurate. Hence my call for a change in terminology.

Pretty damn logical, if you ask me.





> When we perform a WILD our brain is asleep, yet we are still aware of ourselves. That's what it's all about. And that's exactly what happens to a person when they experience sleep paralysis the old fashioned way. Their awareness of themselves is awake while the rest of their brain is still asleep. Just like a WILD. But the average person doesn't know what's happening and panics. They aren't aware that a little mental discipline can allow them to control the sensations or to simply return to sleep.



This is all sorts of false, but that would be attacking a strawman.

What this _does_ tell me is that you don't seem to understand or have a basic grasp of what happens in the brain during sleep and lucidity.

If you'd like to prove me wrong, a brief quiz I came up with in about two seconds:

What frequency (in regards to brain activity) has been recently associated with lucidity?

Name two cognitive processes that don't occur during normal sleep, but do during a lucid dream. 

Name the parts of the brain responsible for the processes you listed above.

What is the function of the amygdala? The occipital lobes?

What about the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex?

If you know your stuff, this shouldn't take you long to fill in. I even put a few gimmes in there for you.

----------


## hermine_hesse

> Sleep paralysis as a *medical term* is incorrect.



I'm going to have to disagree with this also.  I've read plenty of neuroscience journals that use this term, though it is often lengthened to _Isolated_ Sleep Paralysis.  As I stated earlier, I suffered from this condition for many years.  I did see a psychologist briefly in regards to this and he used the term "Sleep Paralysis" as well.

----------


## melanieb

Is the test really necessary? A healthy disagreement is allowed...

Sleep paralysis does seem to manifest in different ways for different people. So many factors in the human body, so many variables, it's impossible to make hard rules about physiological conditions.

Working to make a comprehensive list/guide of all the *possible experiences* would be more useful to the forum.

----------


## Mzzkc

> Is the test really necessary? A healthy disagreement is allowed...



I believe it is.

All of my guides are written with some fundamental, scientifically backed basics in mind. The questions in the quiz are trivial, and even if someone doesn't know the answers off the top of their head, they should be able to figure them out in no time at all.

A baseline is all I'm looking for. We could go back and forth on that stuff all day, but anyone who can't answer all the questions in that quiz really has nothing to go on except hearsay and their own experience. Which is fine until you're trying to make arguments against easily verifiable points.





> Sleep paralysis does seem to manifest in different ways for different people.



Not true. Sleep paralysis (using the widely accepted definition, as defined in my posts above) is well studied and the symptoms are pretty typical across the board.





> So many factors in the human body, so many variables, it's impossible to make hard rules about physiological conditions.



I truly hope you can see the flaws in your argument here, as I have the utmost respect for your ability to see reason, but I'll bring them to light anyways.

Consider, for a moment, that your assertion is true. Given this assumption, we say it is impossible to determine the workings of the human body. 

As such, we as humans can never determine how the human eyes work and thus can never accurately and precisely adjust for imperfections in vision.

Of course, this is a contradiction of the years of research and successful progress made towards vision correction techniques.

Feel free to replace the vision example with whatever other physiological condition you see fit, and you'll see the results are the same. The fact of the matter is, we _can_ figure this stuff out, and in the case of sleep paralysis the symptoms are well established, if not necessarily the causes. 

In the OP, I presented a few theories that are worth looking into, given related research.





> Working to make a comprehensive list/guide of all the *possible experiences* would be more useful to the forum.



Oh hey, looks like I did something useful then.

If you had read through the guide and all accompanying links, you'd see that I touch on just about every experience in both sleep paralysis and NREM sleep. I then make a distinction between the two, because that's where most newbies get tripped up the most, since ~90% of the forum doesn't understand the difference and thus offer misleading information instead of correcting flaws in the newbie's foundational knowledge.

Don't worry, though. I don't plan to write any more guides for this forum; I've given up trying to fix things here. It's just not a good environment for learning things well.

Unfortunately, it took me three years to realize that. Ah well, looks like that's another thing BillyBob and I now have in common. . .

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## dms111

Well I totally botched what I was trying to say I guess. Go ahead and slam me.

So what you guys are saying is that it's impossible to fall straight into REM from a state of wakefulness?






> Are you a "sleep health doctor" by chance? If so, I'd love to see where you acquired this information.



When I say the medical term for sleep paralysis is incorrect I'm referring to the fear aspect. I understand that sleep paralysis is a real condition that people have. What  I'm saying is incorrect is the idea that it has to be accompanied by a sense of fear or dread like you said here 




> Was it the most, or one of the most, terrifying experiences of your life?
> 
> 'Cause if not, then it probably wasn't sleep paralysis. Especially if there was a lack of open-eyed HH/HI.



Sleep paralysis does not have to be accompanied by fear. I experienced sleep paralysis twice before I knew what lucid dreaming was. I felt the fear. Later I learned about lucid dreaming. Later I learned how to WILD by inducing sleep paralysis. Since I knew what was happening there was no fear. With no panic there is no fear. I was to busy anticipating the upcoming dream. These days I pass through sleep paralysis every time I WILD and there's still no fear. I refuse to believe that I am somehow special and immune to the fear. If I can go through sleep paralysis without fear than anyone can.





> Sleep paralysis is full body paralysis caused by REM atonia. I've listed common symptoms above.
> 
> Sleep paralysis isn't characterized by the sensations that occur in NREM sleep.
> 
> Therefore, to call NREM sensations sleep paralysis is wholly incorrect and inaccurate. Hence my call for a change in terminology.



My views are not as far off from yours as they appear to be. Newbies frequently mistake hypnagogic hallucinations for sleep paralysis. I know these sensations can occur before sleep paralysis and are not always tied to it. But I have never tied them to NREM before. I always thought it was just a state of deep relaxation. Maybe this deep relaxation I'm thinking of is actually stage one of NREM. I was unaware that stage one of NREM actually occurs when you are still awake.  So you are probably right in that what many people think is sleep paralysis is actually NREM. But the sensations that you describe as happening during NREM can also occur during sleep paralysis.





> This is all sorts of false, but that would be attacking a strawman.
> 
> What this does tell me is that you don't seem to understand or have a basic grasp of what happens in the brain during sleep and lucidity.



Well I'm going to ask you to attack it. I don't know what happens to the brain during 
sleep. I experience sleep paralysis frequently now that I've learned how to WILD. I feel I've woken during the night and I can not move. I feel like my body has disconnected from my mind. I know it's there but it feels like dead weight. I often feel a presence in the room and hear voices. When this happens I know exactly what it is so I simply relax and surrender to it and in no time at all I'm immersed in a lucid dream. But this has occurred so many times now that as soon as I realize I'm in sleep paralysis I turn my mind towards the upcoming dream and these hallucinations become part of the dream.

Do you think people can't experience sleep paralysis as their entering sleep? That it only occurs as they're waking up?

----------


## Mzzkc

> Well I totally botched what I was trying to say I guess. Go ahead and slam me.
> 
> So what you guys are saying is that it's impossible to fall straight into REM from a state of wakefulness?



Technically speaking, yes.





> When I say the medical term for sleep paralysis is incorrect I'm referring to the fear aspect. I understand that sleep paralysis is a real condition that people have. What  I'm saying is incorrect is the idea that it has to be accompanied by a sense of fear or dread like you said here



Right, that's just a commonly reported symptom and the source of many a newbie's unfounded fear. Like I pointed out in the OP, it probably has a lot to do with how the amygdala functions differently during sleep and wakefulness. Sudden shifts between these states, specifically to and from REM, can cause quite an experiential stir if the person is conscious for them.





> Sleep paralysis does not have to be accompanied by fear. I experienced sleep paralysis twice before I knew what lucid dreaming was. I felt the fear. Later I learned about lucid dreaming. Later I learned how to WILD by inducing sleep paralysis. Since I knew what was happening there was no fear. With no panic there is no fear. I was to busy anticipating the upcoming dream. These days I pass through sleep paralysis every time I WILD and there's still no fear. I refuse to believe that I am somehow special and immune to the fear. If I can go through sleep paralysis without fear than anyone can.



Yes, sleep paralysis can be traversed without fear, but for both first timers and those who understand what's happening, it takes a conscious effort to calm down and not freak out. The reasoning for this is simple: the malevolent presence triggers the flight or fight response, but since neither is possible fear kicks in. If the problem isn't dealt with or worked through logically, that fear will persist.

All that said, it is unusual to experience sleep paralysis during a WILD attempt. Sure most people might experience vibrations, HH, and the like, but objectively speaking a dream should have formed by then.





> My views are not as far off from yours as they appear to be. Newbies frequently mistake hypnagogic hallucinations for sleep paralysis. I know these sensations can occur before sleep paralysis and are not always tied to it. But I have never tied them to NREM before. I always thought it was just a state of deep relaxation. Maybe this deep relaxation I'm thinking of is actually stage one of NREM. I was unaware that stage one of NREM actually occurs when you are still awake.  So you are probably right in that what many people think is sleep paralysis is actually NREM. But the sensations that you describe as happening during NREM can also occur during sleep paralysis.



Well, REM itself has a whole slew of sensations attributed to it that have nothing to do with sleep paralysis.

RobotButler provided a really cool article in one of the threads I linked to here that explains how spinning or falling sensations could potentially come about**: http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/some-i...2/#post1872367





> Well I'm going to ask you to attack it. I don't know what happens to the brain during 
> sleep.



You should do some simple research into those questions, then. You might be surprised what you find. ^.^





> I experience sleep paralysis frequently now that I've learned how to WILD. I feel I've woken during the night and I can not move. I feel like my body has disconnected from my mind. I know it's there but it feels like dead weight. I often feel a presence in the room and hear voices. When this happens I know exactly what it is so I simply relax and surrender to it and in no time at all I'm immersed in a lucid dream. But this has occurred so many times now that as soon as I realize I'm in sleep paralysis I turn my mind towards the upcoming dream and these hallucinations become part of the dream.



Yep, all that is entirely valid, and your experience with sleep paralysis speaks volumes. With competency, knowledge, and experience, the fear can easily be overcome. Sadly, newbies often have none of those things. Which is why I tired to be clear cut with this guide.

Sleep paralysis: full body paralysis that happens every night during REM sleep; very uncommon to experience consciously, even when WILDing; source of the common fear/terror stories; not the goal of WILD.

NREM: stages before REM that always occur, even after a WBTB; common to experience effects of each stage during WILD; source of stories around audio and visual hallucinations, vibrations, etc.; dream should form somewhere here, as one passes into REM;





> Do you think people can't experience sleep paralysis as their entering sleep? That it only occurs as they're waking up?



No, both are possible, but the latter is more commonly reported. Of course, neither are the norm, so they shouldn't be taught as such.

----------


## hermine_hesse

> So what you guys are saying is that it's impossible to fall straight into REM from a state of wakefulness?



It is actually possible, but usually only associated with narcolepsy.

----------


## melanieb

I have a post to make in reply but I am going to hold off in order to collect more information. I expect you can appreciate my desire to make the best reply possible.    :smiley:

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## Sageous

^^ Just be sure to note that Hermine was right.  Because she was.  :smiley:

----------


## cmind

Another excellent thread by mzzkc! You're one of maybe 2 or 3 posters here on DV that I trust to not say something totally stupid when talking about WILD. 

I must admit, this issue of what happens in the time between being fully awake and being in HH confuses even me. For me there always seems to be a momentary lapse of consciousness followed by a regaining of consciousness accompanied by full HH and vibrations. Now, I've always assumed that the lapse of consciousness *was* the NREM stage, and the HH and vibrations were more associated with the REM stage that comes after. Is this incorrect?

----------


## Ctharlhie

> It is actually possible, but usually only associated with narcolepsy.



^This, some people who WILD really do experience REM through a REM intrusion.

Would someone with Narcolepsy WILD more easily? Could random REM intrusion account for some successful WILDs? Or even explain why some people have a predisposition towards successful WILD?

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## djv

Nearly all of my WILD's involve me focusing on my body and sensing the moment (and it is a specific moment) when I can no longer physically move it.  I am asleep and I am paralyzed - it's why my brain can say roll out of bed and my dream body does, but my physical body does not.  In getting to this state I often must pass through moments that would be scary to the inexperienced - the same experiences cited by sleep paralysis (in the "traditional" sense) sufferers.  

Sleep paralysis to the non LD'ing sufferer or scientist studying it seems to be defined as the a moment when the mind awakens in a paralyzed state of REM sleep.  Why can we not call it sleep paralysis when our minds stay awake as we enter the paralyzed state of REM sleep?    

From Laberge/ Levitan article on OBE's (which they seem to believe are dreams, but don't come straight out and say it)...





> Sleep paralysis occurs sometimes when a person 
> is waking from *or falling into* REM sleep, the state in which most 
> vivid dreams occur. During REM sleep, the muscles of the body, 
> excluding the eye muscles and those responsible for circulation 
> and respiration, are immobilized by orders from a nerve center in 
> the lower brain. This prevents us from acting out our dreams. 
> Occasionally, this paralysis turns on or remains active while the 
> person's mind is fully awake and aware of the world.



From Laberge/ De Gracia...





> Sound may be experienced during WILDs, in the transition from waking to sleep, in the form of cracking, hissing, twinkling, or similar sounds, sometimes reported as “haunted house” sounds. These are auditory forms of hypnagogia. Lucid dreamers have reported hearing songs during lucid dreams, as if a radio was playing, when in fact, there was no other source of the perception of music using other modalities. Subjects experiencing sleep paralysis have reported hearing voices, sometimes of a threatening or terrifying nature, reminiscent of the auditory hallucinations of schizophrenics. Lucid dreamers also frequently experience playing music:



They don't seem to have any problem to say that sleep paralysis can be a part of the WILD experience.

I consider what I experience sleep paralysis, but agree it is not necessary to feel the experience in order to WILD.

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## Ctharlhie

Then you may well experience sleep paralysis. But then you can WILD successfully, so it doesn't matter either way. Many people don't experience SP when they try to WILD, and then they fixate on SP, and then they don't WILD, because of a misconception that isn't really their fault.

That's the point Mzzkc's OP.

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## Ctharlhie

Also bear in mind that Laberge is basically appropriating the medical term sleep paralysis (as we know, to any observer it appears that's what's happening) because it seems to fit. Laberge's PHD was awarded on the merit of his MILD technique and the eye signals sent from a lucid dream he recorded. He's a pioneer of lucid dreaming science, but he might not be the best neuroscientist out there.

Scientists will use the accepted paradigm until research reveals a new paradigm to replace it, in a sense, what we're humbly trying to do in this thread.

----------


## Mzzkc

> Another excellent thread by mzzkc! You're one of maybe 2 or 3 posters here on DV that I trust to not say something totally stupid when talking about WILD. 
> 
> I must admit, this issue of what happens in the time between being fully awake and being in HH confuses even me. For me there always seems to be a momentary lapse of consciousness followed by a regaining of consciousness accompanied by full HH and vibrations. Now, I've always assumed that the lapse of consciousness *was* the NREM stage, and the HH and vibrations were more associated with the REM stage that comes after. Is this incorrect?



I'm of the opinion that lapse typically occurs as a result of N3 sleep, the deep stuff that consciousness doesn't play well with. HH is known to happen during NREM, but can occur at the onset of REM as well. Vibrations are trickier to pin down (have seen/read no research in that regard), but the patterns I've observed through anecdote and personal experience suggest N2 sleep plays a big role.

The WILD Progression article I put together covers all this, and even has some great accompanying research courtesy RobotButler.






> Sleep paralysis to the non LD'ing sufferer or scientist studying it seems to be defined as the a moment when the mind awakens in a paralyzed state of REM sleep.  Why can we not call it sleep paralysis when our minds stay awake as we enter the paralyzed state of REM sleep?



We can, because sleep paralysis is defined as such. The period before the paralysis, however, is a completely separate experience with different characteristics none of which involve paralysis. Hence, when someone refers to NREM as sleep paralysis, they're suggesting that paralysis is typical of NREM.

It isn't, but that's what newbies pick up on. As Ctharlhie pointed out, the purpose of the OP was to address this issue and get newbies to clearly see that paralysis isn't something they should be actively seeking. By definition, sleep paralysis is abnormal. I'm of the opinion it should be taught as such, since that tends to be how most university curriculum handles such matters.





> From Laberge/ Levitan article on OBE's (which they seem to believe are dreams, but don't come straight out and say it)...
> 
> From Laberge/ De Gracia...
> 
> They don't seem to have any problem to say that sleep paralysis can be a part of the WILD experience.



I'm in agreement with Ctharlhie here. LaBerge is simply pointing out similarities between the observations he has made regarding OBE/WILD and observations others have made about those who suffer from sleep paralysis. It's a good way of saying, "Hey, these things look like they're related, can I have monies to do moar research plox?"

When those articles were written, LaBerge was still pioneering this stuff. Of course, even from your examples one can note some key differences between the experiences, and more recent studies have pointed to why that could be (NREM vs Sleep Paralysis).

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## Sageous

For What it's worth:

I just finished presenting a WILD class on the DVA forum, and hands-down the most difficult task was getting the students to unlearn all the crap they had previously picked up about the "noise," particularly "SP."  I don't think it went too well, because right to the end students were still trying to "get to SP," and then getting thoroughly lost whenever they thought they had "reached it."

I never gave much of a crap about SP myself, and have no idea how it gained such popularity, but defeating its status in the LD community -- especially novices -- might be quite the windmill indeed. Mzzkc!

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## cmind

> I'm of the opinion that lapse typically occurs as a result of N3 sleep, the deep stuff that consciousness doesn't play well with. HH is known to happen during NREM, but can occur at the onset of REM as well. Vibrations are trickier to pin down (have seen/read no research in that regard), but the patterns I've observed through anecdote and personal experience suggest N2 sleep plays a big role.



It sounds like the correct interpretation then is to say that all (or most of) the "lead up" sensations to the lucid dream are part of NREM, and REM doesn't "officially" begin until I enter the dream proper.

On the topic of REM atonia, I've experienced the real paralysis hundreds of times (I mean after waking up from REM), but oddly enough I've never personally experienced the sense of dread. And I am prone to anxiety in my waking life. Go figure.

----------


## djv

> Then you may well experience sleep paralysis. But then you can WILD successfully, so it doesn't matter either way. Many people don't experience SP when they try to WILD, and then they fixate on SP, and then they don't WILD, because of a misconception that isn't really their fault.
> 
> That's the point Mzzkc's OP.



I did acknowledge that it's not necessary to experience SP to WILD.  I'm not on here enough to notice if people consider HH and vibrations to be SP - do they?  I have no problem to make a distinction between these NREM events and SP.  I feel SP is probably more common in WILD's than Mzzkc suggests though.

When I first started WILDing it took a few weeks - each night I progressed a bit further into the NREM experiences mentioned above.  After a couple of nights of vibrations, then next night a moment after vibrations stopped I felt my body distort - I was paralyzed.  I sunk my body into the bed and voila - I was in an LD.  I almost exclusively WILD that way now.  After vibrations I usually feel my mouth turn to a frown, then it feels like my body sinks into the bed an inch or so - at that moment I know to roll out of bed and start my LD.    

It's been forever since I read EWLD, where I learned to WILD.  I thought one method Laberge taught was to get to that point of feeling your body distort and then rolling out of bed (or floating or sinking), but maybe that was my own idea.  I guess if it's so unusual (and I'm not sure that it is), then yeah - discourage the fixation on it.  But if one can notice this paralysis before a dream scene forms, then it is a great way to WILD.

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## Ekyu

I always was intrested in WILD, even though it's not my main lucid dream technique. Just putting a post here to see if i got it all right? Just correct me if im wrong, i wanna know as mutch as i can.

So basicly it's close to impossible to reach SP while doing a WILD attemp, cause u should be in a dream at that point? And the HH and vibrations that we experience in a WILD attemp are actually from NREM? 


I had 2 experiences where i got into SP, this happend when i woke up from a lucid dream. And i must say, it feels a lot more intense. On my "first" SP, i had a man pushing my face against my pillow. But i must say, there was no fear cause i knew what was happening and i could in a way control it. I even spoke to that "person" in my mind, and he even talked gently back. So i agree on the no fear part (if u know what it is all about), but i imagine if your new to this it would be very scary.

What i notice when i do a WILD (a good one) is that i feel like my body is getting very numb, but i always have a feeling that i can move it, if i really try. While when i wake up from a lucid dream and go straight into SP, it feels like i can't do anything. Would u say this numbness is the preparation for the real SP? If so it would make sense, cause when this extreme numbness and heavy vibrations and so on kick in, ur basicly really close to the rem state i would say. And if this all is true, then i think that people mistake that feeling with the real SP. 

Although i think WILD is still a good way to induce a lucid dream, if u practice it enough. Hope this post makes a little bit sense!

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## Despierto

> I did acknowledge that it's not necessary to experience SP to WILD.  I'm not on here enough to notice if people consider HH and vibrations to be SP - do they? .



I think that the WILDs you do without entering a stage of "sp" is a wild when you loose conciousness early in the process and regain it when the dream either is about to form or has already formed(easily attained through deild)
But from a wakeful state, if you're performing a wild, dont you most likely enter a stage when you're unable to move, feel uncomfortable, hard to breathe, sort of claustrophobic feeling? HH and stuff? isnt that sp? afterall you are paralyzed.

----------


## Mzzkc

> I think that the WILDs you do without entering a stage of "sp" is a wild when you loose conciousness early in the process and regain it when the dream either is about to form or has already formed(easily attained through deild)
> But from a wakeful state, if you're performing a wild, dont you most likely enter a stage when you're unable to move, feel uncomfortable, hard to breathe, sort of claustrophobic feeling? HH and stuff? isnt that sp? afterall you are paralyzed.



*repeats everything previously stated above*





> I did acknowledge that it's not necessary to experience SP to WILD.  I'm not on here enough to notice if people consider HH and vibrations to be SP - do they?



They do. *gestures upward* 

That's the whole point of this guide. To draw a fine line between sleep paralysis and NREM sensations and then shout at it until everyone knows where it is. The line was drawn by hand, so it isn't perfect, but it was never meant to be. It's a practical tool for newbies and those trying to teach newbies the differences between the sensations on either side of the line.

If you want to read more advanced material, you can check out some of my other stuff. I intentionally left out unnecessary details here because that sort of knowledge comes with experience, and even I do a shit job of explaining some of the intricacies.

@Ekyu: Yes, you understand the difference. This sort of thinking will give your first dozen WILD attempts a better chance at success.

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## dutchraptor

It's amazing how SP has gained this reputation over time. I personally never even feel any form of heavy vibrations nor do I hear or see hallucinations when I Deild. Is it possible to transition around the n1 stage and go straight to rem sleep?

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## hermine_hesse

> After a couple of nights of vibrations, then next night a moment after vibrations stopped I felt my body distort - I was paralyzed.  I sunk my body into the bed and voila - I was in an LD.  I almost exclusively WILD that way now.  After vibrations I usually feel my mouth turn to a frown, then it feels like my body sinks into the bed an inch or so - at that moment I know to roll out of bed and start my LD.



I would say what is happening here (and what most people refer to as SP in a WILD) is body _dissociation_.  Your body is not actually paralyzed; you are transferring your awareness from your physical body to your dream body.  I imagine when this happens you are trying to lie still, not trying to move.  If you actually tried to move your physical body, you would ruin the WILD, right?

In contrast, when you experience Sleep Paralysis you are completely aware of your physical body, but completely unable to move it.  You wake up into your physical body, but cannot move no matter how hard you try.

----------


## djv

> I would say what is happening here (and what most people refer to as SP in a WILD) is body _dissociation_.  Your body is not actually paralyzed; you are transferring your awareness from your physical body to your dream body.  I imagine when this happens you are trying to lie still, not trying to move.  If you actually tried to move your physical body, you would ruin the WILD, right?
> 
> In contrast, when you experience Sleep Paralysis you are completely aware of your physical body, but completely unable to move it.  You wake up into your physical body, but cannot move no matter how hard you try.



No.  I am not trying to lie still at this point.  I try to roll out of bed, but only my dream body does.  I have remained consciuos to the point of sleep paralysis in REM sleep.  I am aware of my body.  It is my technique to focus on my body.  I recognize exactly the point where I can try to get out of bed, knowing that I physically can't.

 If I have a dream body - then I am paralyzed.  That is a normal occurance that prevents you from acting out your dreams.  

I do not ruin my WILD, because my WILD attempts are successful when I have noticed the point where my body is paralyzed and I simply roll out of bed.  Dream scenes rarely (maybe 1 times in 20) appear before my eyes for me to enter.  Most of my WILD's start as pitch black dreams in my bedroom.  I have to use different techniques to achieve vision within these LD's.

----------


## djv

> They do. *gestures upward* 
> 
> That's the whole point of this guide. To draw a fine line between sleep paralysis and NREM sensations and then shout at it until everyone knows where it is. The line was drawn by hand, so it isn't perfect, but it was never meant to be. It's a practical tool for newbies and those trying to teach newbies the differences between the sensations on either side of the line.
> 
> If you want to read more advanced material, you can check out some of my other stuff. I intentionally left out unnecessary details here because that sort of knowledge comes with experience, and even I do a shit job of explaining some of the intricacies.



I will try to check some of your other stuff.  I don't have a problem with your distinctions.      

I dusted off my copy of EWLD to see if it was Laberge's techniques I was remembering or something I came up with.  Everything was in his book in the section under the WILD technique titled "Attention to Body or Self."  In it he suggests vibrations, strange sensations, and body distortions are harbingers of REM sleep paralysis and that these sensations will rapidly develop into REM sleep paralysis, at which point you can "step out of bed."  

So, he seems to make a distinction as well - there is a line between the sensations and REM sleep paralysis.  But you can sense the REM sleep paralysis.

For me it has been a great technique.  I know exactly when that sleep paralysis has hit and I can "step out of bed."  I feel the sensations as SL described just before I recognize the SP.  I'm not sure if I'm that rare, considering a significant portion of the WILD section of EWLD is spent on the technique of focusing on your body and recognizing the moment your body is truly paralyzed.  That said, I don't disagree that newbies shouldn't focus on getting to that point.  I already had many LD's before I ever did WILD.

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## djv

> I think that the WILDs you do without entering a stage of "sp" is a wild when you loose conciousness early in the process and regain it when the dream either is about to form or has already formed(easily attained through deild)
> But from a wakeful state, if you're performing a wild, dont you most likely enter a stage when you're unable to move, feel uncomfortable, hard to breathe, sort of claustrophobic feeling? HH and stuff? isnt that sp? afterall you are paralyzed.



If you have lost consciousness while trying to WILD and then regained it when a dream has formed you have had a failed WILD and a DILD.  

I am not paralyzed during HH.  I have had WILD's where dream scenes appeared before me and I entered them, without ever experiencing the sensation of SP.

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## dms111

> For me it has been a great technique.  I know exactly when that sleep paralysis has hit and I can "step out of bed."  I feel the sensations as SL described just before I recognize the SP.  I'm not sure if I'm that rare, considering a significant portion of the WILD section of EWLD is spent on the technique of focusing on your body and recognizing the moment your body is truly paralyzed.



You're not rare. The main issue here is how hard it is to explain to a person what sleep paralysis is like if they have never experienced it. New people always seem to mistake simple relaxation and mild hallucinations for SP. Or like the OP says they are mistaking feelings that occur in NREM sleep for SP. It might be best not to mention SP to a beginner unless they have already have some experience with SP and know what it's like.

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## Mzzkc

> If you have lost consciousness while trying to WILD and then regained it when a dream has formed you have had a failed WILD and a DILD.



No such thing as failure if you get a lucid out of the deal, methinks.

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## hermine_hesse

> No.  I am not trying to lie still at this point.  I try to roll out of bed, but only my dream body does.  I have remained consciuos to the point of sleep paralysis in REM sleep.  I am aware of my body.  It is my technique to focus on my body.  I recognize exactly the point where I can try to get out of bed, knowing that I physically can't.
> 
>  If I have a dream body - then I am paralyzed.  That is a normal occurance that prevents you from acting out your dreams.  
> 
> I do not ruin my WILD, because my WILD attempts are successful when I have noticed the point where my body is paralyzed and I simply roll out of bed.  Dream scenes rarely (maybe 1 times in 20) appear before my eyes for me to enter.  Most of my WILD's start as pitch black dreams in my bedroom.  I have to use different techniques to achieve vision within these LD's.



I apologize for my misunderstanding.   It seems you do have a grasp on NREM and are experiencing sleep paralysis.  Admittedly, I have little experience in WILD and the ones I did have were nothing like this.  I never felt my body become paralyzed, or transition from a physical to dream body.  I do start to feel as if I am floating, then in a void, then a dream scene would spontaneously form around me.  I imagine WILDs can be very different for each person who experiences it.

----------


## Sageous

> I imagine WILDs can be very different for each person who experiences it.



You imagined well, because they are!

That may be the real value of this thread (and Mzzkc's contribution in general), in that one of the real problems with the great variety of talk and techniques is that it almost establishes a "norm," or an expectation of a specific group of events that newbies are convinced _must happen_ before they can LD. SP, of course, is by far the most popular of these events.  I will never know why.

WILDs, and the achieving of LD's in general, is a different experience for everyone, and attachments like expecting "to achieve SP" can really muddle your own natural progression.

And yeah, I'll say it:  All that really  matters are the *fundamental*s -- self-awareness, memory, and expectation/intention.  If those are well developed, technique doesn't matter, and natural noise like SP can simply be ignored.

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## djv

> No such thing as failure if you get a lucid out of the deal, methinks.



Sure, but the WILD still failed as consciousness wasn't maintained from waking to dreaming.  I've had many DILD's that probably were the result of the efforts I made in trying, but failing, to WILD.

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## Sageous

^^ Again: Is that a bad thing?

----------


## djv

> You're not rare. The main issue here is how hard it is to explain to a person what sleep paralysis is like if they have never experienced it. New people always seem to mistake simple relaxation and mild hallucinations for SP. Or like the OP says they are mistaking feelings that occur in NREM sleep for SP. It might be best not to mention SP to a beginner unless they have already have some experience with SP and know what it's like.



Mzzkc has suggested it's rare...





> All that said, it is unusual to experience sleep paralysis during a WILD attempt.



That said, I understand Mzzkc's point.  I don't see a problem to mention SP to a beginner, but as Mzzkc suggests it's a good idea to distinguish it from the NREM events, and it should be made clear that experiencing the sensation of SP is not necessary to successfully WILD.

----------


## Mzzkc

> Mzzkc has suggested it's rare...



Using the clinical definition, defined by the symptoms newbies get scared by the most.

That stuff doesn't happen frequently, as far as I know. If it did, I don't think WILDing would be quite as popular a technique.





> That said, I understand Mzzkc's point.  I don't see a problem to mention SP to a beginner, but as Mzzkc suggests it's a good idea to distinguish it from the NREM events, and it should be made clear that experiencing the sensation of SP is not necessary to successfully WILD.



This.

This approach to teaching/learning is all I wanted people to take away from this guide. Indeed, you sir, have pointed out the entirety of my thesis.

Discussion accomplished? Hmm, this might be an Internet first. I have no idea how to proceed.

----------


## Sageous

> Using the clinical definition, defined by the symptoms newbies get scared by the most.
> 
> That stuff doesn't happen frequently, as far as I know. If it did, I don't think WILDing would be quite as popular a technique.
> This approach to teaching/learning is all I wanted people to take away from this guide. Indeed, you sir, have pointed out the entirety of my thesis.
> 
> Discussion accomplished? Hmm, this might be an Internet first. I have no idea how to proceed.



How about proceeding with a caveat?  WILD may not be so much a popular technique as much as a popularly _desired_ technique. 

"SP," or some imagined experience of SP, might be more integral to the common failure of WILD attempts than, um, nature, or our rational concepts, ought to allow.

I'm not sure if that's important, but it seems to matter in this context.

----------


## Mzzkc

> How about proceeding with a caveat?  WILD may not be so much a popular technique as much as a popularly _desired_ technique. 
> 
> "SP," or some imagined experience of SP, might be more integral to the common failure of WILD attempts than, um, nature, or our rational concepts, ought to allow.
> 
> I'm not sure if that's important, but it seems to matter in this context.



Yes. This.

Is late. Prose hard to form.

Sageous write the good words I agree with.

Edit:

I would like to thank everyone for participating in this discussion. Y'all are cool.

Please stay that way.

-(T)zzkc

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## cmind

Why 99% of people trying to WILD fail and give up: At this moment, mzzkc's "SP" thread has just over 1000 views, and at the very top of the page there's a thread by Jeff777 with over 100,000 views talking about trying to get into "SP".

----------


## Sageous

^^  Mzzkc's battle is most certainly an uphill one.  Better him than me, I suppose.

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## Zoth

> *De-Orientaton*
> The amygdala, for instance, shows decreased activity during sleep (according to various studies).
> [/FONT][/INDENT]



Interesting. I've seen a documentary (which I will try to find) presenting that in sleep paralysis occurences there was an over-estimulation of the amygdala, which was the main cause for intense fear feelings. I can't lean any way though, because I consider myself ignorant about these processes, especially when we're discussing them based on what you called "mostly experiences from DV members". I personally never felt this so called "terror feeling" in any of my WILDS, and I actually sense that it's easier to ignore all the hallucinations/sensory interferences because they vary greatly every single WILD, so they don't really provide (at least to me) any "sign" that (dream) land is right ahead.

Very nice discussion, we need more like this even if we have a lot of different views. After all, no one has all the pieces of the puzzle ^^

----------


## Mzzkc

> Very nice discussion, we need more like this even if we have a lot of different views. After all, no one has all the pieces of the puzzle ^^



Yeah, man. I'm still trying to find some of those blasted edge pieces.

They aren't in the box, they aren't in the pile. I even checked the vacuum cleaner. . .

No luck.

----------


## hermine_hesse

> Interesting. I've seen a documentary (which I will try to find) presenting that in sleep paralysis occurences there was an over-estimulation of the amygdala, which was the main cause for intense fear feelings. I can't lean any way though, because I consider myself ignorant about these processes, especially when we're discussing them based on what you called "mostly experiences from DV members". I personally never felt this so called "terror feeling" in any of my WILDS, and I actually sense that it's easier to ignore all the hallucinations/sensory interferences because they vary greatly every single WILD, so they don't really provide (at least to me) any "sign" that (dream) land is right ahead.
> 
> Very nice discussion, we need more like this even if we have a lot of different views. After all, no one has all the pieces of the puzzle ^^



I don't think the terror feelings happen during WILD SP, its more in the medical condition SP, when you are waking from sleep not entering it.  (WILD experts, please correct me if I am wrong here.)  The terror (with the latter version) usually is accompanied or brought on by a seemingly malicious or evil presence.  Sometimes it can be ecstatic feelings, too, but those can actually be more disturbing. 

I think this is part of the problem.  WILD newbies who have never experienced either SP mesh the two together, and are worried that they will experience terror or evil beings while trying to WILD.  *sigh*  I wish we could adopt two separate terms for these two very different experiences, but I'm not even going to attempt that uphill battle.

----------


## djv

> I don't think the terror feelings happen during WILD SP, its more in the medical condition SP, when you are waking from sleep not entering it.  (WILD experts, please correct me if I am wrong here.)  The terror (with the latter version) usually is accompanied or brought on by a seemingly malicious or evil presence.  Sometimes it can be ecstatic feelings, too, but those can actually be more disturbing. 
> 
> I think this is part of the problem.  WILD newbies who have never experienced either SP mesh the two together, and are worried that they will experience terror or evil beings while trying to WILD.  *sigh*  I wish we could adopt two separate terms for these two very different experiences, but I'm not even going to attempt that uphill battle.



I imagine the medical SP as we're calling it would be quite terrifying, especially as most who experience it probably have no real knowledge of it, like us here on DV.

I often experience auditory hallucinations while trying to WILD and occasionally they are scary - I can usually ignore them, but sometimes I have to end my WILD attempt despite knowing it is probably not real (e.g. when I hear breaking glass I don't want to lie there in bed saying it's nothing while someone is actually breaking into my house).  On a couple of occasions I've heard people "in my room" saying they are going to kill me.  While scary I can ignore that because it's obviously a hallucination.  

Mzzkc has given the two separate terms, and after looking around this part of the forum for a bit (I usually don't frequent it) I understand why.  Good luck Mzzkc - you're going to need it.

----------


## Zoth

> I don't think the terror feelings happen during WILD SP, its more in the medical condition SP, when you are waking from sleep not entering it.  (WILD experts, please correct me if I am wrong here.)  The terror (with the latter version) usually is accompanied or brought on by a seemingly malicious or evil presence.  Sometimes it can be ecstatic feelings, too, but those can actually be more disturbing. 
> 
> I think this is part of the problem.  WILD newbies who have never experienced either SP mesh the two together, and are worried that they will experience terror or evil beings while trying to WILD.  *sigh*  I wish we could adopt two separate terms for these two very different experiences, but I'm not even going to attempt that uphill battle.



People with reocurrent sleep paralysis report them in the middle of the night. It becomes a bit hard to claim that they happen post REM stage, especially because sleep paralysis can happen other than when REM stage is ending (or disturbed, in the case of narcoleptic people I'd assume). The seeming malicious or evil presence is part of this terror, but what you probably want to refer is that sleep paralysis can obey to certain degrees, both depending on the condition of the person experiencing it.

I've refered this (I also didn't know before I saw this topic and did some research to see and comprove several things said by Mzzkc, like HH) on other forums/places and people still seem to think that those physical disturbances when you're falling asleep are a sign that you're in SP and "about" to enter REM. Wish people would actually research that a dream forming and hypnagogic hallucinations can be different things, and that sleep paralysis isn't a transition, but actually a part of a sleep stage.

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## Sivason

I was never under the impression that SP in a lucid dream discussion was intended to mean the same thing as the medical term. I am sorry but we need a term to describe a state that happens during a WILD attempt. SP is used to mean a certain state, NOT the medically defined term. So, I wonder if any one is implying the state were you must use a lot of concious mental intent to move (since your body IS asleep) does not exist? 
I mean the state where you are clearly asleep but can still vaguely feel bodily sensation. You feel as if moving is not going to happen unless you force the issue. I do not ever take the term SP onn this forum to mean the medical SP. What do you, or any one suggest I call that state? nREM does not fit. nREM is a huge range of sleep phases, not one specific bodily sensation. Why argue to change the whole terminology? And yes, I do need a term for this one bodily sensation, used as a marker for judging my sleep state. SP is the term already in place, and likely any suggestion will just be some thing some one makes up.
In medicine there is a drug called theobromine (related to caffine), turns out it has no bromine in it, but they did not ask the world medical community to rename it. It is just poorly named, and we accept it. I am all for a term to take the place of the state I refer to as SP, but then no one who has always used the term will know what I mean.

----------


## Mzzkc

> I was never under the impression that SP in a lucid dream discussion was intended to mean the same thing as the medical term. I am sorry but we need a term to describe a state that happens during a WILD attempt. SP is used to mean a certain state, NOT the medically defined term. So, I wonder if any one is implying the state were you must use a lot of concious mental intent to move (since your body IS asleep) does not exist? 
> I mean the state where you are clearly asleep but can still vaguely feel bodily sensation. You feel as if moving is not going to happen unless you force the issue. I do not ever take the term SP onn this forum to mean the medical SP. What do you, or any one suggest I call that state? nREM does not fit. nREM is a huge range of sleep phases, not one specific bodily sensation. Why argue to change the whole terminology? And yes, I do need a term for this one bodily sensation, used as a marker for judging my sleep state. SP is the term already in place, and likely any suggestion will just be some thing some one makes up.
> In medicine there is a drug called theobromine (related to caffine), turns out it has no bromine in it, but they did not ask the world medical community to rename it. It is just poorly named, and we accept it. I am all for a term to take the place of the state I refer to as SP, but then no one who has always used the term will know what I mean.



Most in this community aren't as discerning as you--let alone those in the medical field. Due to that (and several other factors), they lump the two terms together and assume inseparability.

Yes, NREM is an umbrella term that encompasses all sleep stages and sensations prior to REM sleep. I don't see how you can refute its applicability as appropriate terminology. What do you experience during WILD attempts? Vibrations? Hypnagogia? Spinning? Floating? Dampened senses? Buzzing?

All of those are characteristic of NREM sleep.

A sense of dread, full-body paralysis, and open-eyed hallucinations are characteristic of conscious sleep paralysis.

Numbness, tingling, a sense of discomfort, and difficulty of movement are characteristic of neither sleep paralysis or NREM. These _are_ however characteristic of a self-induced trance state (aka self-hypnosis) brought about by relaxation, remaining still for a long time, and the belief that you are experiencing "sleep paralysis" and thus cannot move.

Which would you say better matches your experience and definition of "SP"? Which would you say best matches the experiences and definitions of the wider LDing community?

"SP" is already widely used as a non-standardized blanket term. Unfortunately, it encompasses more than it should, which sows confusion, misunderstanding, and misinformation. As a result, newbies waste hours of their lives trying to "reach SP." Is their time so worthless that you feel it unnecessary to even _attempt_ a change in the status quo? I firmly believe everyone's time is precious and allowing newbies to throw away countless hours simply because no one was willing to take action and change the "official" curriculum is an egregious, reprehensible act.

Hence this thread.

I've done what I can. The ball's in your (inclusive) court.

----------


## Sivason

> Most in this community aren't as discerning as you--let alone those in the medical field. Due to that (and several other factors), they lump the two terms together and assume inseparability.
> 
> Yes, NREM is an umbrella term that encompasses all sleep stages and sensations prior to REM sleep. I don't see how you can refute its applicability as appropriate terminology. What do you experience during WILD attempts? Vibrations? Hypnagogia? Spinning? Floating? Dampened senses? Buzzing?
> 
> All of those are characteristic of NREM sleep.
> 
> A sense of dread, full-body paralysis, and open-eyed hallucinations are characteristic of conscious sleep paralysis.
> 
> Numbness, tingling, a sense of discomfort, and difficulty of movement are characteristic of neither sleep paralysis or NREM. These _are_ however characteristic of a self-induced trance state (aka self-hypnosis) brought about by relaxation, remaining still for a long time, and the belief that you are experiencing "sleep paralysis" and thus cannot move.
> ...



I agree with you that people are confused. i agree that they are thinkingg of the WILD experience of SP by looking at the medical experience SP. I have tried to set new members straight, here is an example of what i tell them, http://www.dreamviews.com/f12/you-ca...en-try-135753/


The noises and vibrations and such are HH or HI as you have pointed out. I am talking about the sensation that you only get in a self induced sleep while maintaining slight mental awareness (WILD attempt). You can feel the moment when your body has actually fallen asleep. Because your body is asleep, you can not move it with out serious mental intent. That is why I ask people not to test it, they are finally freaking asleep and stupidly attempt to conciously move their body! Very wasteful. I do not know how the term came in to use with LDing. However, it feels pretty much the same as actual REM atonia. After my post last night, I had about 3 DILDs and a DEILD, so I did not mind 'wasting' one on an experiment. I stopped and saught awareness of my physical body, while clearly in REM. Yes, there it was, and the ssensation was just about the same as bodily awareness in nREM. I then used concious will and intent to sit bolt upright in bed. This woke me up of course, but I was able to break true SP (REM atonia) just as easy as I break SP (LD term).
Maybe we should tell members that what they are looking for is the sensation of their body being asleep. I do not know the facts about what counts as SP from a sleep study point of view, but I experience no difference between what ever happens in the late stages of a WILD attempt, and the actual REM WILD.

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## Sageous

^^ As Mzzkc notes above, Sivason, your knowledge, experience and abilities are virtually unique here.  So too I think are your expectations.  This matters a lot with subjects like SP.

You may be able, from experience alone, to parse various "SP's," and prepare your expectations accordingly, but the vast majority of viewers here can not -- or rather choose not to do so.  Just count views on a SP thread as opposed to one that really matters like Zot00's recent post: SP threads, and all their requisite amazing (and usually incorrect) claims are viewed by an order of magnitude greater than thoughtful balanced threads like Zoth00's. The mythology of SP has eclipsed nearly every other subject on this site (and others), which says a lot about the successful hyping of  a bit of noise that successful LD'ers seem to consistently shrug off; it also throws up a serious caveat to those wishing to redefine it.  Better I think to just leave it lie.

Nuance doesn't matter here.  What you say is sensible, I think, but it doesn't help, given your audience:  Define SP more ways, and you only elevate the importance of the single greatest distraction in LD'ing among those who learn about it here.   It doesn't matter if what you say is correct -- your words will not only be taken out of context, but added to the existing SP lexicon -- and thick bibles are all the more impressive, whether they're ever opened or not.





> I've done what I can.



No, Mzzkc, you can do more. And will. Many of us are counting on that...

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## Sivason

I need to admit that when I made my first post, it was late and I was actually feeling pissy,because a member who follows Mzzkc likes toattack newbies who 'dare' say they entered SP, and call them (imply) that they know nothing. He does this dispite that they are using the term correctly for the LD version of SP. I find it sad when someone tries to make them selves feel smart by attacking raw beginners.

I have an idea. Lets agree on a term that we can use to describe the things SP is used for in LDing and try to replace SP with it. I have a random suggestion. How abou S.A. for Sleep Awareness, as in the sensations you experience that allow you to know your body has fallen into sleep? Any one know if S.A. is already being used for any LD terms? Then instead of being harse with beginners we can just steer them into thinking about Sleep Awareness instead of SP as a marker for where they are at in their WILD attempt.

It would not have to be SA if either of you have a better idea for a term, but I do feel a term for the stage of awareness when your body has reach true sleep is important, and because it has an S in it, maybe it would be an easy transition.

----------


## Sageous

I think SA is a fine term, or at least a step in the right direction ... but will it do anything to dispel the current SP mythology?

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## AURON

Oh wow...looks like I missed out on a lot here. There are a lot of great points, and misconceptions that were addressed in the OP, and I agree with a lot of them. The only thing I see missing is the fact that a lot of people in this thread have reported that they have experienced the feeling that they can't move their body when they try to WILD. I'm pretty sure the majority of them have Isolated Sleep Paralysis (Body won't move while in NREM either waking or going to sleep, and if a person tries to move it's going to take everything in that persons will to break out of it. Also, that person *DOES NOT* have any other sleep disorders) which is true SP. When this happens, HH and HI can occur, but doesn't define it, and that's where a lot of people get things mixed up.

A WILD is a very hard technique for the great majority because of the discipline involved. However, people with isolated sleep paralysis (the population who have had the feeling where they can't move at all when they're going to sleep or waking up *numerous times* in their lives without attempting a WILD)  tend to have an advantage. They know exactly how far they are in a transition because ISP acts as a good indicator to where they are in their phase, because it generally carries over and becomes REM Atonia.

When I initially started out, I would wait solely for the onset of ISP to kick in because I could feel it. Like I said...it's a great indicator of when it's go time. I would just ride it out, and when it stopped. I would get out of my bed and literally be in the dream. Unfortunately, it doesn't work all the time. Over time, I noticed some of my WILDs didn't involve ISP whatsoever. That's when I began to differentiate the two. Initially I thought "well different strokes for different folks", but now I'm leaning towards the thought that a lot of people on this board could be suffering from ISP. It could also the reason why I think a lot of people get caught up in talking about "waiting for sp". There have been many instances where I've gone through the transitional phase and sat there in darkness, because I was waiting for ISP.  What I should have been doing is getting up out of bed and RCing. 

In closing I think the "sp" stuff people normally bring up, is just a transitional phase (HI, HH bells and whistles) before the dream starts. However, some people are really experiencing ISP during that occurrence, and that needs to be addressed.

*TLDR version*
SP=Body can't move during NREM, eyes can open. Traditionally happens while waking up, but can occur while going to sleep. (rare)REM Atonia=Body can't move during REM. (every night)Transitional Phase=NREM state where HI HH occur. Can lead to NREM or REM dreaming. (varies)ISP= condition where a person chronically goes into SP throughout their lifetimes (rare)

note:HH and HI can occur with SP and ISP, but does note define it.

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## Mzzkc

> No, Mzzkc, you can do more. And will. Many of us are counting on that...



If I get the opportunity, sure.

LDing is on my back-burner right now due to life and what have you.





> I need to admit that when I made my first post, it was late and I was actually feeling pissy,because a member who follows Mzzkc likes toattack newbies who 'dare' say they entered SP, and call them (imply) that they know nothing. He does this dispite that they are using the term correctly for the LD version of SP. I find it sad when someone tries to make them selves feel smart by attacking raw beginners.



No worries; I had copious amounts of rum in me when I wrote mine.

----------


## hermine_hesse

> I need to admit that when I made my first post, it was late and I was actually feeling pissy,because a member who follows Mzzkc likes toattack newbies who 'dare' say they entered SP, and call them (imply) that they know nothing. He does this dispite that they are using the term correctly for the LD version of SP. I find it sad when someone tries to make them selves feel smart by attacking raw beginners.
> 
> I have an idea. Lets agree on a term that we can use to describe the things SP is used for in LDing and try to replace SP with it. I have a random suggestion. How abou S.A. for Sleep Awareness, as in the sensations you experience that allow you to know your body has fallen into sleep? Any one know if S.A. is already being used for any LD terms? Then instead of being harse with beginners we can just steer them into thinking about Sleep Awareness instead of SP as a marker for where they are at in their WILD attempt.
> 
> It would not have to be SA if either of you have a better idea for a term, but I do feel a term for the stage of awareness when your body has reach true sleep is important, and because it has an S in it, maybe it would be an easy transition.



I know this is a late reply, but I like this term and think it would be a great substitution.  The thing that bothers me most about using the term 'SP', is that on the (admittedly rare) occasion where a new user to the site suffers from the medical condition ISP (isolated sleep paralysis) and posts question about it, they are given a lot of misinformation due entirely to the ambiguity of the term SP.  I've recently seen instances where the person was very obviously suffering from ISP (waking into a paralyzed body and accompanied by evil presence on a regular basis), but was given responses such as "You're so lucky to naturally have SP!  You can use this to WILD!"  ISP is a terrifying experience, and certainly not something you are lucky to experience.  It very frustrating for me to see new users who are undergoing an already very confusing experience only be given misinformation and further confusion.

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## Zoth

This thread is a mess. Too many claims without source. Even tough I agree with some of the people (like the OP), we still lack sources. Not providing sources is what puts you vulnerable to people refuting your ideas without disproving your sources, and that's why Mzzkc wasted quite some time explaining the same thing over and over along the topic.

An example:

"Sleep paralysis does seem to manifest in different ways for different people. So many factors in the human body, so many variables, it's impossible to make hard rules about physiological conditions." Nope, because according to studies: "_(..)whereas
SP hallucinations are very strongly (78–98% of cases report
fear during SP) associated with fear (Cheyne 2001)."_

Another issue:
-When people refer to medical SP, it's not medical or non-medical: SP is SP, and it's a medical term. The point of the OP was to distinguish Sp from other sympthons of non-REM.

Besides, we're adding complexity to the thread without much need, and being incoherent. Example:

"_ISP= condition where a person chronically goes into SP throughout their lifetimes (rare)_[/I]" This is not ISP, it's RISP. I know that RISPS is still ISP,  but non-reocurrent ISP is just not chronic. 

Definition of *chronically*: in a habitual and longstanding manner.

Solution: just focus on what really matters, aka, removing SP from the headlights. SP is rare, ISP is rare, and RISP, as the name says, gives frequent SP/ISP.
We've concluded that majority of people performing WILD is not having RISP, otherwise they would report it way before any lucid dreaming commentaries. They don't have ISP, because ISP is totally infrequent. And they do not have SP, because the 2 forms of SP are ISP and RISP, which we concluded are not the case of most people.

So, there's no SP. That part we already know, if the OP had provided sources and a little background information in the first post, we (and especially he) would have had spent way less time on questions and misunderstandings like the ones we see along the pages  :tongue2:  The deal is, why even mention SP? Remove it altogether because if we perform a analysis over the reports of frequent WILDers, I'll bet no one will report RISP pre-lucid dreaming discovery. I thought we were all here for the main purpose of helping new people. And you certainly do not help them letting them carry on with the SP material.

Sources used

----------


## Sivason

*Zoth00, please help me out with some logic here.* If I stay aware and my body falls asleep, that is the intended goal in the first stages of a WILD attempt, correct? OK, if I stay aware and truely can observe myself sleeping and experience the sensations involved in sleep, and I experience the chemical changes that keep me from acting out my dream, what am I experiencing? I am asking, if the chemical process that prevents REM from resulting in bodily movement, is directly preceived by me (because I am fully aware and yet asleep) then what is it I am experiencing? 

Most people would say SP is what prevents REM bodily movement. If I, in full conciousness, feel the chemical change happen, what would you call it? Is that not what the term SP is being used for in lucid dream forums? If you feel that only a medical disorder can be called SP, then what if I simply stay 100% aware through all the stages of sleep? In that case, I clearly would be aware during REM atonia, and any other state of sleep. Let me know what you think about this. The fact is, I can stay fully aware through every sleep phase, and maintain the state for say 2 hours or more, so if SP is part of every nights sleep, how could any one claim it is not part of WILD? If experiencing the same chemical changes, in full awareness and full sleep, does not count as SP (because? it is not scaring me?) then what is it called?

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## Sageous

Can I interject a quick clarification that might help, Sivason?  

If I understand all this correctly (and who besides Mzzkc really does?), there truly is no such _thing_ as SP ... At least in terms of WILD among healthy practitioners.

"SP" as we seem to define it here is the waking-awareness witnessing of REM atonia, it's not a thing unto itself.  In other words, Zoth is right; there us no SP, per se, only conscious _recognition_ of a normal sleep function.  Therefore, building SP up as a significant event may be inappropriate at best and significantly, _literally,_ misleading when that event is lent the kind of importance it is given on this site.

Sorry to interrupt...

----------


## AURON

> Another issue:
> -When people refer to medical SP, it's not medical or non-medical: SP is SP, and it's a medical term. The point of the OP was to distinguish Sp from other sympthons of non-REM.
> 
> Besides, we're adding complexity to the thread without much need, and being incoherent. Example:
> 
> "_ISP= condition where a person chronically goes into SP throughout their lifetimes (rare)_[/I]" This is not ISP, it's RISP. I know that RISPS is still ISP,  but non-reocurrent ISP is just not chronic.



Well first of all, my post was to address the people who have stated  (please read the entire thread) that they've experienced *true* SP while  trying to WILD. You can't sweep a condition under the rug and act like  it doesn't happen to anyone. And in my opinion, there really isn't a need to add "Recurrent" to the title....especially when 'RISP is still ISP". Like I said in my previous post, there are measures that can be taken to avoid it all together, and it also mentions it in the article you linked.






> Definition of *chronically*: in a habitual and longstanding manner.



You know there are more than one definitions to that word right? I hope you didn't ignore the other definitions in the medical dictionary. 







> Solution: just focus on what really matters, aka, removing SP from the headlights.
> 
> SP is rare, ISP is rare, and RISP, as the name says, gives frequent SP/ISP.
> We've concluded that majority of people performing WILD is not having RISP, otherwise they would report it way before any lucid dreaming commentaries. They don't have ISP, because ISP is totally infrequent. And they do not have SP, because the 2 forms of SP are ISP and RISP, which we concluded are not the case of most people.
> 
> 
> 
> So, there's no SP. That part we already know, if the OP had provided sources and a little background information in the first post, we (and especially he) would have had spent way less time on questions and misunderstandings like the ones we see along the pages  The deal is, why even mention SP? Remove it altogether because if we perform a analysis over the reports of frequent WILDers, I'll bet no one will report RISP pre-lucid dreaming discovery. I thought we were all here for the main purpose of helping new people. And you certainly do not help them letting them carry on with the SP material.
> 
> Sources used



 I browsed your article (control+F'd for good measure), and "reoccurrent isolated sleep paralysis" isn't mentioned in it; neither is "recurrent isolated sleep paralysis" for that matter. However, I found "Chronic SP"....how neat. And on that note.

You can call it RISP, CSP, ISP, CHiPs patrol, or whatever you like, but the bottom line is that a handful of people actually experience the inability to move while trying to WILD.  They also experience it while trying to go to sleep and wake up. If they had it happen to them chronically, they probably decided to google it and found out what SP was. I'm here to tell them that there are two types of SP: REM Atonia, and Isolated Sleep Paralysis.  Most people will have an episode of NREM SP once in their lives, and medical professionals will chalk it up to SP.  When they have it over and over without any other conditions except the possibility of narcolepsy, they call it Isolated Sleep Paralysis.

*SOURCE:*
ChokrovertyS. Sleep and its disorders. In: Bradley WG, Daroff RB, Fenichel GM, Jankovic J, eds. _Neurology in Clinical Practice_. 5th ed. Philadelphia, Pa: Butterworth-Heinemann Elsevier; 2008:chap 72.

Also, can you come up with some newer sources? Nothing in your article is newer than 2001.

----------


## Sivason

> Can I interject a quick clarification that might help, Sivason?  
> 
> If I understand all this correctly (and who besides Mzzkc really does?), there truly is no such _thing_ as SP ... At least in terms of WILD among healthy practitioners.
> 
> "SP" as we seem to define it here is the waking-awareness witnessing of REM atonia, it's not a thing unto itself.  In other words, Zoth is right; there us no SP, per se, only conscious _recognition_ of a normal sleep function.  Therefore, building SP up as a significant event may be inappropriate at best and significantly, _literally,_ misleading when that event is lent the kind of importance it is given on this site.
> 
> Sorry to interrupt...




Good Point!
Funny thing, I understand that we should find a new less, confusing way to teach WILD. However, I need Zoth or mzzyk to explain my above post.

Thanks for your thoughs.

----------


## Zoth

> [B]Zoth00, please help me out with some logic here.



First, doesn't matter if most people say it's SP what prevent REM bodily movement. The correct term is REM atonia, because, well, that's the process that happens. Secondly, you (and we all) have to be very careful in our words: if you're asking me something like "what is that I AM experiencing" are you taking into account that your situation may differ? Because even taking into account the qualia of WILD (sageous would rather say the qualia of lucid dreaming I bet ^^), chemical changes, you can't expect someone to say this and this, and you say that, and then we all agree it's different ways of describing a phenomenon. Like the OP said, the characteristics of SP are pretty much typical on the board. Now this reply is also for Auron, and hopefully you will see that even the claim that 





> You can call it RISP, CSP, ISP, CHiPs patrol, or whatever you like, but the bottom line is that a handful of people actually experience the inability to move while trying to WILD.



is very tricky. Why? Let's use logic:

- You're trying to do a WILD after around 7 hours of sleep. You're a new lucid dreamer, so you take some time to calm down. 'No problem' you think, I'm ready, I just need to not move and fall asleep.

- How can you claim a "handful" of people experiencing paralysis when they try to WILD? You mean they actually tried to move, risking the WILD? Did they encounter the typical sympthons symptoms? You see, it's obvious that a handful of people experience occasional episodes of SP when they try to WILD, but you're *just* saying that is likely? I agree. But due so many reports, I don't see the point on pointing out that a small percentage of people is experiencing SP, since that's it, a small percentage. Now, do you want information for a small percentage of people? Yes. You want to turn that information into something that applies to the rest of the sample? Nope. The fact is this was _already_ done. Now I'm not interested who says something wrong or right: I know that this is a forum, eventually someone will correct that person, and I totally agree with some complaints of how this is done (aka, the people that have pleasure in pointing out the others are wrong instead of wanting to help people/contribute for the discussion, see here's the proof I've read the whole thread auron  :Cheeky: ). The problem is the source. There's a source that is not even reliable that started spreading "SP is a part of WILD!" and it made it here (here: internet). Now, as we all may know, you can't expect people to pick a guide about WILD, read SP, and then not apply things like self-fulfilling prophecy. How about that? One person that got a WILD attempt looking like it included SP  :wink2: 

Now sivanson, what are you experiencing? Is it what the majority of people report? This is important. In another related note Auron, you claim REM atonia as a type of SP. This seems contradicting: if REM atonia happens all nights, and SP is refered as conscious perception of being paralysed, then how can REM atonia be a kind of SP? Because that would imply that SP is not always consciously perceived. But, on the other hand, if we read this title (and this is to show you why newer sources don't mean more reliable sources Auron). So, more contradicting stuff, which is bad. And this study is from 2012! Off topic: can you find the conflicting information?

-Title vs "_Now, researchers have discovered the brain chemicals that keep the body still in sleep._"
-"_The brain chemicals kick into action during rapid eye movement (REM) sleep_" this is REM atonia. What about N-REM SP?
-_"This paralysis keeps people still even as their brains are acting out fantastical scenarios"_ Once again, they can't be talking about SP as we know it.
-"it's also the reason people sometimes experience sleep paralysis, or the experience of waking up while the muscles are still frozen" okay, let's be forgiving and ignore the fact that they only refer to hypnopompic SP. But notice how they mention Sleep paralysis now (as opposed to the first paragraph, if you take into account the title), as something far more specific, coming out as a variant of REM atonia (and not the other way around). 2012 study people! 

This only hints me that we're missing something (*whoever* is right): we can't go much further as to specify exactly SP seems or doesn't seem to be, as we (correct me someone if I'm wrong) are just onironauts without a clear (or should the word be complete) understandement of the entire sleep process. Sure we can get sources and gladiate ourselves; sure we can point out illogical claims: the only thing that we seem fit (and this is why we're here I would guess): it's to attribute the majority of reports of WILD attempts to the phenomenon of Sleep paralysis as false.

Now, I'm surrounded by moderators, dream guides, and a WILD teacher. It's the perfect opportunity to ask:

- Sageous, how many true SP have you found in your student reports?

- Dream guides, how hard time do you have clearing this SP misconceptions when you're helping people, and especially, answering beginners questions?

- Moderators, although a forum is public place, let's reflect on this fact: a person walks into the website, sees a WILD guide that relies in SP (like this one). Now, people get that information, and some of them even try to WILD. Then they come to the forum with doubts, or even join DVA. Isn't this contradicting information? I don't see how it helps the work of the dream guides or sageous's work.


 Now, other aspect that sivason mentioned (and it seems important) is that some people go out and say "you are wrong that's not SP" bla bla. Now, this is no problem in a discussion topic (aslong as people respect eachothers, the more "attacks" the better if the contribute to the discussion), but even though dream guides aren't meant to be right about everything, how are *we* helping them in cases of conflicting information? If I see a moderator refering something in a super famous guide, and then a dream guide saying "don't worry, SP is not likely to occur", wouldn't that interfere with your WILD process? 

Melanieb mentioned _"Working to make a comprehensive list/guide of all the possible experiences would be more useful to the forum"_. I assume this as dream guide policy. But in case of SP, we all testify that this just makes a dream guide job (OR any person that wants to help) harder.

PS: I skipped a lot of discussion regarding Sivason and Auron in purpose. Let's "gladiate" later and focus on the main issue first  :smiley: ?

----------


## Sivason

Zoth, nice post, thank you. So, it sounds to me like you have clarified the point I was asking about. That being, that you are saying, we experience awareness of REM atonia, but that to call that the same thing as SP is problematic,at the least, and flat out wrong in general. I am fine with that. So, the short answer to my question, many WILDers may be preceiving REM atonia, and some how we have started to just accept the term SP as also meaning REM atonia (which is a poor fit). That is what I think you are getting at.
I agree that it would be great if somehow we could erase the misconceptions about SP vs REM atonia from the culture.
As a dream guide, to answer your question: I have to correct new members misconceptions about SP (REM atonia mislabeled) at least twice a week. It is the largest circulated misunderstanding I run into.

----------


## AURON

> First, doesn't matter if most people say it's SP what prevent REM bodily movement. The correct term is REM atonia, because, well, that's the process that happens. Secondly, you (and we all) have to be very careful in our words: if you're asking me something like "what is that I AM experiencing" are you taking into account that your situation may differ? Because even taking into account the qualia of WILD (sageous would rather say the qualia of lucid dreaming I bet ^^), chemical changes, you can't expect someone to say this and this, and you say that, and then we all agree it's different ways of describing a phenomenon. Like the OP said, the characteristics of SP are pretty much typical on the board.



I totally agree with all of this.






> Now this reply is also for Auron, and hopefully you will see that even the claim that is very tricky. Why? Let's use logic:
> 
> - You're trying to do a WILD after around 7 hours of sleep. You're a new lucid dreamer, so you take some time to calm down. 'No problem' you think, I'm ready, I just need to not move and fall asleep.
> 
> - How can you claim a "handful" of people experiencing paralysis when they try to WILD? You mean they actually tried to move, risking the WILD? Did they encounter the typical sympthons symptoms? You see, it's obvious that a handful of people experience occasional episodes of SP when they try to WILD, but you're *just* saying that is likely?



The following are quotes from this thread. Keep in mind that their are three people in this thread that suffer from ISP, and they spent several posts saying "Um, actually I get SP". I decided to address them, because I suffer from it myself. Which brings the total up to four.

*Spoiler* for _dem quotes_: 








> Sleep paralysis does not have to be accompanied by fear. I experienced sleep paralysis twice before I knew what lucid dreaming was. I felt the fear. Later I learned about lucid dreaming. Later I learned how to WILD by inducing sleep paralysis. 
> 
> I experience sleep paralysis frequently now that I've learned how to WILD. I feel I've woken during the night and I can not move. 
> Do you think people can't experience sleep paralysis as their entering sleep? That it only occurs as they're waking up?







> No.  I am not trying to lie still at this point.  I try to roll out of bed, but only my dream body does.  I have remained consciuos to the point of sleep paralysis in REM sleep.  I am aware of my body.  It is my technique to focus on my body.  I recognize exactly the point where I can try to get out of bed, knowing that I physically can't.
> 
>  If I have a dream body - then I am paralyzed.  That is a normal occurance that prevents you from acting out your dreams.  
> 
> I do not ruin my WILD, because my WILD attempts are successful when I have noticed the point where my body is paralyzed and I simply roll out of bed.  Dream scenes rarely (maybe 1 times in 20) appear before my eyes for me to enter.  Most of my WILD's start as pitch black dreams in my bedroom.  I have to use different techniques to achieve vision within these LD's.







> I suffered from chronic episodes of sleep paralysis for about ten years.  When it first started, I would suddenly wake up in the middle of the night.  Without reason, I would instantly be overcome with an overwhelming and visceral terror.  I wanted to scream or jump out of bed, but would be completely unable make a sound or move anything but my eyes no matter how hard I tried.








> I agree. But due so many reports, I don't see the point on pointing out that a small percentage of people is experiencing SP, since that's it, a small percentage.



By logic don't you think a dreaming site would have an increased percentage of people who suffer from different parasomnias? Because it does. How many people you know that are into lucid dreaming?  How many people are into it on this site? How many people you know that get lucid every night? How many times have you come across someone that does that on this site? And the list goes on.  You can't say it's just a small percentage, because a lot of people who come to this site have came here because of other issues regarding sleep.









> Now, do you want information for a small percentage of people? Yes. You want to turn that information into something that applies to the rest of the sample? Nope. The fact is this was _already_ done.



Were they done right? Did they even mention REM atonia or Isolated Sleep Paralysis? Did they say "hey is this is a WILD guide for people who suffer from isolated sleep paralysis?  No...most of the time they generalize that "SP" is the next step. So that part has to be taken out or rewritten. It's the very reason why this thread was created in the first place. To address false information, and have it corrected and deleted. So the misinformed people who look at things will be enlightened along with the people who haven't read a single tutorial. 






> In another related note Auron, you claim REM atonia as a type of SP. This seems contradicting: if REM atonia happens all nights, and SP is refered as conscious perception of being paralysed, then how can REM atonia be a kind of SP?




Chemically they're the same thing. Mechanically they're the same thing. They happen at different parts of sleep so they have different names. Don't try to twist my words, I'm not the person who's going to say "you have SP every night", but I understand that REM Atonia and Isolated Sleep Paralysis fall under the same category Sleep Paralysis. (for lack of a better example) The same way Respiration and Aspiration fall into the same category of breathing. But I'm not going to say 'there's only a small percentage of people who've choked on fluids, so lets exclude aspiration'.  I'm going to address the people who've actually gone through it, and make sure that what they know has happened to them wasn't something that's all in their heads. 


Now for side notes:
 I find it strange how you wanted me to come with sources, and showed me a .com link that was written by a innerfaith minister/yoga instructor that doesn't have a doctorates degree.  If you're going to challenge my sources, challenge my sources, don't use some random e-garbage as an example.

As for Jeff777's WILD tutorial....go to it, search it, and find posts made by Spaceexplorer. He lays it down in the thread, and Jeff admits to it being a copy pasta and that he didn't know much at the time when he did it.  But the weird part is that a lot of people got lucid from that guide.

The moderators can try to all limit the amount of inaccurate information out there, but, it's best that the knowledgeable people who give a damn about it stand up. It's best to have discussions about things, and challenge theories, isn't that wake makes science, Science?

----------


## cmind

> As for Jeff777's WILD tutorial....go to it, search it, and find posts made by Spaceexplorer. He lays it down in the thread, and Jeff admits to it being a copy pasta and that he didn't know much at the time when he did it.  But the weird part is that a lot of people got lucid from that guide.



Don't you mean _despite_ the guide? The only reason followers of jeff777 ever get lucid is because they fail at following his instructions. Of course, most of the time they fail anyway but sometimes doing the wrong thing the wrong way actually works out of sheer stupidity and luck.

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## Sivason

Hello to everyone who follows this thread. I have been toying with ways to teach WILD in a less confusing way, and want to share a post I made, and open it up to comment from any one with an opinion to share. It is related to my comments earlier in this thread, that we may want to agree on a way to steer this community away from being hung up on SP. I had suggested we choose some replacement term, we can all agree on to give them instead, that is useful, not a hinderance. I had offered the idea of *Sleep Awareness (SA)*

Ok, here is how I tried to use the term in my teaching. Comments and ideas are welcome.






> You will have a barely awake feeling, that presists into the first say 10 to 20 minutes of the process (actual sleep). Longer if your WILD is not developing well. Even though you still feel barely awake, you also feel new odd sensations that very from person to person. The point I would impress is that you want to be sneaking your aware brain into true sleep (so an anchor, instead of self reflextion/worries). This first stage (see above post) is how you know when you have reached true sleep and can then drop your anchor (stop doing it) and start creating a dream,,, because you know you have successfully fallen asleep. I wait and keep to my anchor, until I am only about 5% aware of my body. Then I move to make the 'transition.'
> 
> 
> *Side note:* At no point should you worry about Sleep Paralysis (SP), it will only hinder you to think of that. Think instead of Sleep Awareness (SA), which means you learn what it feels like to experience the first stages of true sleep. One of the experiences is less and less connection to your body. You may even feel the onset of REM atonia, which causes some people to have SP. For most of you it will just feel like narcotics,,, a dopy, numb, tingley sensation that feel a bit like drugs are effecting you. Similar to the way you feel, if the dentist has every given you gas, or you have huffed nitris, in the first few seconds of it.
> Note each of these stages and think of them as SA, that is just an awareness (experience varies from person to person), that you are passing through each state, so you can time the shift of mental attitude at the proper point in your sleep..

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## gab

_Sivason_, I agree, that SP has gotten more important status than it deserves (for LDing purposes). I don't think that SP should be even mentioned in WILD tutorials. When someone posts how he could not move either when falling asleep or waking up, that's when we can clarify what that was, without relating it to LDing.

And that state, when you feel sensations of the falling asleep process, could be called as you suggest Sleep Awareness (SA). Or Falling Asleep Awareness. But that's maybe too long. 

And after we come to conclusion about this, there should be a sticky in Attaining Lucidity and WILD forums for everybody to forget what they read about SP on other sites (I have a reason to believe that's where majority of SP craze is comming from). Just my thoughts.

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## CJC

> _Sivason_, I agree, that SP has gotten more important status than it deserves (for LDing purposes). I don't think that SP should be even mentioned in WILD tutorials. When someone posts how he could not move either when falling asleep or waking up, that's when we can clarify what that was, without relating it to LDing.
> 
> And that state, when you feel sensations of the falling asleep process, could be called as you suggest Sleep Awareness (SA). Or Falling Asleep Awareness. But that's maybe too long. 
> 
> And after we come to conclusion about this, there should be a sticky in Attaining Lucidity and WILD forums for everybody to forget what they read about SP on other sites (I have a reason to believe that's where majority of SP craze is comming from). Just my thoughts.



About the Sticky- Agreed.

----------


## Sivason

> _Sivason_, I agree, that SP has gotten more important status than it deserves (for LDing purposes). I don't think that SP should be even mentioned in WILD tutorials. When someone posts how he could not move either when falling asleep or waking up, that's when we can clarify what that was, without relating it to LDing.
> 
> And that state, when you feel sensations of the falling asleep process, could be called as you suggest Sleep Awareness (SA). Or Falling Asleep Awareness. But that's maybe too long. 
> 
> And after we come to conclusion about this, there should be a sticky in Attaining Lucidity and WILD forums for everybody to forget what they read about SP on other sites (I have a reason to believe that's where majority of SP craze is comming from). Just my thoughts.



I like the idea. I happen to be on vacation, so I would have  time to craft some sort of basic sticky , but I think I will have as much of the staff who cares agree it should be stickied before I do it. Plus, I would need the input, so it comes out saying a useful message. I don't think as staff we should slander any one who choses to try tutorials based on SP., so I would really need to get lots of input.

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## gab

> I like the idea. I happen to be on vacation, so I would have  time to craft some sort of basic sticky , but I think I will have as much of the staff who cares agree it should be stickied before I do it. Plus, I would need the input, so it comes out saying a useful message. I don't think as staff we should slander any one who choses to try tutorials based on SP., so I would really need to get lots of input.



Sure thing on all counts. We could say something like "DV chose to approach WILD without emphasis on SP". And by "we" I mean the community and staff. And of course, only if that's the route we want to take. And I don't mind, if there is a sticky or not, but many people join and their first thread is "I can't get into SP" and I think that should be addressed somehow. 

Personally, I don't mind answering posts like that, and I doubt that a sticky will stop them entirely, but it may help.

----------


## cmind

> Sure thing on all counts. We could say something like "DV chose to approach WILD without emphasis on SP". And by "we" I mean the community and staff. And of course, only if that's the route we want to take. And I don't mind, if there is a sticky or not, but many people join and their first thread is "I can't get into SP" and I think that should be addressed somehow. 
> 
> Personally, I don't mind answering posts like that, and I doubt that a sticky will stop them entirely, but it may help.



Good idea with the sticky, but there's also the huge problem of there being extremely popular guides (most notably a certain guide by a jeff777) talking specifically about "trying to achieve SP", which we can now all agree is harmful. And most importantly, since new members don't know any better, they are naturally drawn towards the guides with the highest view counts, which are invariably the worst and most harmful ones. The guides must be deleted or given a strong disclaimer in big bold lettering at the top.

----------


## gab

> Good idea with the sticky, but there's also the huge problem of there being extremely popular guides (most notably a certain guide by a jeff777) talking specifically about "trying to achieve SP", which we can now all agree is harmful. And most importantly, since new members don't know any better, they are naturally drawn towards the guides with the highest view counts, which are invariably the worst and most harmful ones. The guides must be deleted or given a strong disclaimer in big bold lettering at the top.



I think, that we don't need to take such a forcefull measure. If DV feels like we have reached a shift in the way we approach WILDing (without SP), we can mention just that. And also, that there is more than one method, and everybody is free to try any method they wish, just maybe the one without emphasis on SP is more modern? IDK 

Methods evolve, I don't see anything wrong with saying, that we used to include SP but any more.

There may be people who would like to reach SP for whatever reason, and that's perfectly fine by me.

----------


## Sageous

Sivason, this SA idea seems a very good one, but I couldn't let a couple of nitpicky thoughts drift harmlessly away from me:

First, isn't WILD _itself_ essentially sleep awareness?  That might be semantics, but I'm not sure.  After all, if SA is effectively redundant, you might run the risk of reducing the SP focus  by replacing it with another focus (SA) that runs the risk of having a disruptive life of its own.  Mind you, getting SP off its pedestal is a good thing no matter what, but this might not be the most perfect of trades.  

Also, in my WILD class, which I guess is now mostly forgotten, I had some success telling the students not to replace SP, but to truly understand that it is simply part of the "noise" a dreamer experiences during their WILD or DEILD transitions. It can be expected, noticed, and occasionally (as with DEILD) even be used as a tool, but it is not to be expected, looked for , or in any way become the target of WILD.  This seemed to have some positive effect, without a need to hold out new terms that could be elevated.

Regardless of these thoughts this is an excellent concept, Sivason, and I truly hope that you are able to make some headway in knocking down the SP wall.

----------


## Sivason

> Sivason, this SA idea seems a very good one, but I couldn't let a couple of nitpicky thoughts drift harmlessly away from me:
> 
> First, isn't WILD _itself_ essentially sleep awareness?  That might be semantics, but I'm not sure.  After all, if SA is effectively redundant, you might run the risk of reducing the SP focus  by replacing it with another focus (SA) that runs the risk of having a disruptive life of its own.  Mind you, getting SP off its pedestal is a good thing no matter what, but this might not be the most perfect of trades.  
> 
> Also, in my WILD class, which I guess is now mostly forgotten, I had some success telling the students not to replace SP, but to truly understand that it is simply part of the "noise" a dreamer experiences during their WILD or DEILD transitions. It can be expected, noticed, and occasionally (as with DEILD) even be used as a tool, but it is not to be expected, looked for , or in any way become the target of WILD.  This seemed to have some positive effect, without a need to hold out new terms that could be elevated.
> 
> Regardless of these thoughts this is an excellent concept, Sivason, and I truly hope that you are able to make some headway in knocking down the SP wall.



I was thinking maybe if I do a sticky thread, then I would want to explain, it is basically just markers that may help, and that every one needs to explore their own awareness of the sleep process for them selves. Then I was thinking I would have any DVA professors, staff members and maybe a few celeberty guests (Myzzk, jeff777, suggestions) each get a chance to add one post saying what they want to share or clarify. For, example in your post, you may state something like you just posted, describe any thing you normally use to guide you as to when to try what, and link to any threads, like your class thread that talks in more detail, about it. 

I guess it is an idea that we would all offically contribute to a sticky thread to clear up the issue. I could have each contributor  PM me with what they plan to say. I would lock the thread, untill one of us was ready to do their post, unlock it so you can add it and try to create a powerful bit of sway to dispell the SP nonsense. If it was offically endorsed by that many known members and had a post inbedded from each, then maybe it would help straighten things out a tiny bit. It won't fix the problem, but may help. The posts each person makes would not have to support the idea of a new term like SA, but should be focussed on what form of sleep awareness you think would be worth mentioning, to show that SP does not have to/ should not be part of a WILD.

See, i feel that the LD version of SP, as it is often used is a helpful marker of where you are in the sleep process, but the term is bad in genneral and confuses every one. I would for my part offer SA as serving the same role, but for your part, maybe you would take your own ideas about why the term SP is not useful/ is harmful, and go in some other direction. I am probably rambeling, as I have not thought it out in any detail.

To sumerize: A sticky thread wrote by and endorsed by say half a dozen dva/staff/well known experts that would share our thoughts on doing away with the term.

----------


## gab

_Sageous_, you may be right about new term would possibly just replace the old one without changing the mindset of a dreamer. I didn't look at it from that angle.

So, do we even need a name for that part of the process?

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## Sivason

> _Sageous_, you may be right about new term would possibly just replace the old one without changing the mindset of a dreamer. I didn't look at it from that angle.
> 
> So, do we even need a name for that part of the process?



No need to offically endorse a new term. The focus would probably be each contributor offering their offical thoughts on not teaching/ worrying about/ looking for SP in the WILD process. But stickied in the attaining lucidity portion. We all have to answer so many threads and PMs about the topic, so maybe a conspicous sticky like we are discussing would help. It would be best if we each add our own original thoughts. My part may or may not describe SA, while other contributors would have their own stuff to offer. We could all review the completed thread and then offically endorse it. We would not be endorsing a belief in every detail every contributor makes, but word it that we all offically would choose to do away with the term. Or something.

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## Sageous

> So, do we even need a name for that part of the process?



I would say no, we don't, all apologies to Sivason.

As people here might have noticed by now: I believe that terms, and to some degree techniques themselves, are anathema to the very nature of LD'ing, and ought to be avoided and diminished wherever possible.  

WILD, and LD'ing itself, is a singular expression of self-awareness, in and of itself.  To parse it into separate bits and pieces only reduces the expression, and makes the pieces matter more than a bit too much.

Full disclosure:  I was LD'ing for decades before I ever even heard of SP.  Sure, I experienced it (albeit almost never during WILD), but I really didn't care -- certainly not enough to name it or seek it out.  Yet still I had thousands of WILDs and DEILDs; how can that be?

----------


## Mzzkc

Gab:

There's already a term for that phase: NREM sleep. If you want to explain the awareness part, you can do so conversationally without the need for another acronym.

Example:


Newcomer: Some weird stuff happened to me last night as I was trying to WILD. There were swirling lights and at one point it felt like I was tripping. What's up with that?

DG/Knowledgeable Member: 

Seems like you were passing through NREM sleep; it's nothing to worry about, and it shows you were well on your way to a successful transition! Just keep practicing that awareness as you drift to sleep and you'll be set. =)
The conversational approach removes all reference to paralysis or any association with previous terms (ie SP). Plus it feels more personable and less clinical dropping unnecessary acronyms.


sivason:

I like the idea of a sticky, and wouldn't mind contributing no matter what direction you decide to take it.

Sageous:

My thoughts exactly. Haven't had the time/energy to bring them up. Glad you're on top of things. ^.^

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## Sivason

> Gab:
> 
> There's already a term for that phase: NREM sleep. If you want to explain the awareness part, you can do so conversationally without the need for another acronym.
> 
> Example:
> 
> 
> Newcomer: Some weird stuff happened to me last night as I was trying to WILD. There were swirling lights and at one point it felt like I was tripping. What's up with that?
> 
> ...



Your example sounds good. It is true that conversational teaching may be better received. I think the theme of a sticky thread would not be some thing like SA as a term, but each of us getting to put our offical stance in writing were it will be seen, and leave it up to each of us how we want to make our point. Then we could each provide any links that we wish. For example, I may or may not do a seperate thread about the idea of SA as a tool in WILD and just provide a link, as it is a related thread that I would feel could be helpful. I would encourage Mzzkc to provide a link to this thread and Sageous to an applicable WILD lesson.


My own thing with the idea of wanting to keep the premis of watching for the bodily state that SP is often used to describe, is just a matter of personal method. I get the feeling I was taught to WILD in a slightly different school of thought than either Mzzkc or Sageous, but there must be as many ways to approach it as their are people who can pull it off. It is good, for a few experts to have learned their methods from different sources; it provides the community with options and many varying but each valid opinions when they ask questions. People get a totally differant take on things from me and Sageous, because we both did our first decade or two of training, in a world that had no internet, so who knows where the knowledge each of us learned came from, but each of us learned from seperate sources. I assume, like me, sageous had to do the bulk of discovery for himself, creating a truely singular personalized skill set. I actually had always used the term Dream Trance prior to finding this web sight. I had never heard it called WILD.
 But, getting a chance for each of us to express it in their own way is what I would like to aim for. We would each stick to the central theme, of do not think about SP, it is a confusing and useless misunderstanding, here is what I (Mzzyk, Sageous, Gab, sivason, who ever) want to make clear on the subject.

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## gab

Not sure what you guys gonna say, but how about all experts cooperate on a brand-spanking new WILD tut, endorsed by everybody who cares about the issue and agrees. And that would be the sticky.

Something basic and straight forward. Detailed enough to make it usefull, but without explaining all the NREMs and REMs. 

And of course, there can be links to other WILD tutorials and classes for more in-depth explanations. 

So one person would write the draft. And everybody would be able to add something what they noticed the biggest issues are when explaining WILDing to a newbie.

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## Mzzkc

> Not sure what you guys gonna say, but how about all experts cooperate on a brand-spanking new WILD tut, endorsed by everybody who cares about the issue and agrees. And that would be the sticky.
> 
> Something basic and straight forward. Detailed enough to make it usefull, but without explaining all the NREMs and REMs. 
> 
> And of course, there can be links to other WILD tutorials and classes for more in-depth explanations. 
> 
> So one person would write the draft. And everybody would be able to add something what they noticed the biggest issues are when explaining WILDing to a newbie.



I prefer sivason's idea, as it more directly addresses the current issue.

The new "official tutorial" is already a much better starting point than previous incarnations; I don't see a need to rehash things that have already been covered extensively.

My involvement with the LDing community is also pretty minimal right now, and most of my LDing projects are on the backburner, so I don't think I could contribute much more than an independently written paragraph or three. A more involved collaboration would be...difficult.

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## Sivason

I also see a small problem that would block an offical tutorial. That is each of us have our own valid methods, and just with the three of us (Mzzck, Sageous, me) I see 3 highly varied ways of reaching the same end. It is probably good, if somewhat confusing for new members, if we each teach the method and tricks that we have practiced. Each of us have 'ways' we approach this, and it is great that they are not exactly identical.. I read Mzzck's WILD thread, and thought it was great, but I also did not recognize his WILD as exactly the same thing as my WILD. Neither of us are soley correct, we just learned different details and mind sets. 
So, anyways, YAY for diverse methods, and lets just address the smaller issue. I would like suggestions for a title. here is one: *Sleep Paralysis Confusion Cleared Up: Some Expert Opinions*

I just  grabbed that out a hat I guess. It has the words Sleep Paralysis first and may attrack all the newbies who search for the term, plus it would be stickied in plain sight.


*Ok, let me try to offically start this thing.* We can prepare our individual posts in this thread, and then when we each decide on what we want to say, I can combine them all in a new thread and sticky it. I will run the finished product by Ophilia Blue and Matte before it gets stickied.

I am more than fine with anyone just cut and pasting something they have already posted.

*So if you are willing Sageous, Gab, Mzzyk, and Sivason should each submit a post here that gets what they think is worth saying said. Lets stay short and sweet, so I like Mzzkc's idea of 1 to 3 pararaphs each. 
*
I would like two more experts to submit a post. If you meet the following criteria, you will count as an expert for this humble thread we are making. You should be either a DVA professor, have been or are DV staff, or can show you have some standing in the community. Let's say, any of these items, have at least 1000 posts with a guide thread you have started that has at least 1000 views, have over 2000 posts or have at least 3 years registered. I am just making that stuff up, so if you think you have something real good to say, but don't meet the criteria, post it anyways, and maybe it will still be used.

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## cmind

^ Does that include me?  :smiley:

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## Sageous

Okay, I'll play.  But I might be a bit...

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## Sivason

> ^ Does that include me?



I mentioned that anyone can come up with a post and offer it. If the poster does not meet the criteria, maybe the rest of us will vote on what gets added and does not. So, sure, come up with one to three paragraphs that you feel are to the point and worth saying, and we will take a look at what you come up with. We need to avoid directly critisizing any ones elses work, but if you do not name someone, you can criticize an idea as bad or negetive.

***************************************************  **************


*UPDATE TO PLAN*: I have created a thread for work space for contributors, or potential contributors, here, http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/work-a...4/#post1945022

This is just a curtiousy to avoid cluttering Mzzck's existing thread.

So, if I have asked you to contribute, you meet the criteria and wish to contribute, or you feel you have something good to say despite not meeting the criteria, the linked thread can be used to submit rough drafts, ask questions, or comment on what other people draft up.


***************************************************  ********************


Ophilia Blue is on board!!! So we will have 5 so far if Gab wants to contribute. So, if Gab is in, then one more expert should do it.

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## melanieb

I replied to you. I will read and post as necessary, and check for grammar/spelling plus unusual metaphors.

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## gab

> So, if Gab is in, then one more expert should do it.



Thank you, _sivason_, I will read the thread of course and may comment, but I'll let you guys work this out.

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## Sivason

Gab and Melanieb and Ophilia Blue, Thanks. I will put together an intro and my own post. I think each person can say as littlle as there own version of this, *"SP has never been a part of WILDing for me. I plan to stop using the term when talking about WILD. It only confuse the subject. Please spend your  time learning other skills, and do not waste time worrying about SP"* Or you could say more, if you had a point to share. Just having six staff members or expert opinions warning that newbies should not even be thinking about SP unless they already suffer from it, is mostly what I am going for. If Melanieb or Ophilia Blue do have personal experience using SP, then feel free to mention anything that you feel will be useful in decreasing confusion. I do not want any of you to make statements you disagree with.

Myzzck, You could just provide a shortened version of your OP, maybe even leave out explaining anything in detail, but expressing your main point.

Sageous, You could provide a paragraph, much like the one a few posts above, just expressing that all the HI stuff, may be experienced, but should never be saught for,,, something cleverly word by you to convey your message on that.

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## Sageous

> Sageous, You could provide a paragraph, much like the one a few posts above, just expressing that all the HI stuff, may be experienced, but should never be saught for,,, something cleverly word by you to convey your message on that.



Not sure about clever, but I'll try to have something on your new thread shortly.

Glad you're making this effort, Sivason!

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## frost458

> As the REM stage begins,[...] and you end up with full-body paralysis







> except full-body paralysis occurs during NREM sleep



This is somewhat confusing....first you say it's during REM sleep then NREM.

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## Mzzkc

> This is somewhat confusing....first you say it's during REM sleep then NREM.



No, I do not.

Your quote is out of context.

Full quote:




> Notice every sensation (HH, vibrations, sensory deprivation, etc.) except full-body paralysis occurs during NREM sleep.



Full quote with parens removed:




> Notice every sensation except full-body paralysis occurs during NREM sleep.



Full quote with clarified clauses:




> Notice every sensation, except full-body paralysis, occurs during NREM sleep.



Full quote with alternative exemption:




> Notice every sensation, save full-body paralysis, occurs during NREM sleep.



I concede that it could use some editing for the sake of clarity.

I used bold typeface to compensate for lack of editing time. Seems it was ineffective.

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## frost458

If I understand right what he meant was : full body paralysis does not occurs during NREM.
Am I right?

Well I disagree.
I get Full body paralysis *both* in SP and NREM, only difference is that I can choose to not let it happen in NREM (if I move before full body paralysis).

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## Sivason

> If I understand right what he meant was : full body paralysis does not occurs during NREM.
> Am I right?
> 
> Well I disagree.
> I get Full body paralysis *both* in SP and NREM, only difference is that I can choose to not let it happen in NREM (if I move before full body paralysis).




I imagine all sorts of sleep disorders exist and full paralysis could be experienced at any stage of sleep. That does not change the issue of only a small number of people having the condition. Any tutorials using actual full body paralysis are useless to the vast majority of people.

Think about this. SP is a rare enough disorder, as is color blindness. If a puzzle book was designed for color blind people only, then it would be of no use the vast majority of people. The same is true for a WILD method that requires you have a serious sleep disorder. A color blind person may enjoy the puzzle book, and some one, like you may benifit from SP based tutorials. Most new members will not.

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## cmind

> Well I disagree.
> I get Full body paralysis *both* in SP and NREM, only difference is that I can choose to not let it happen in NREM (if I move before full body paralysis).



Sorry bub, but if you have a choice, it's not paralysis by definition. That's called "choosing not to move".

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## Zoth

I've had my head in other projects lately, but once I get the time I'll catch up on the reading on the topic, great initiative from you sivason  :smiley:

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## frost458

> Sorry bub, but if you have a choice, it's not paralysis by definition. That's called "choosing not to move".



Not really no, if it was choosing not to move it would imply that I could move whenever I want to.

According to wikipedia :




> Physiologically, sleep paralysis is closely related to REM atonia, the paralysis that occurs as a natural part of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep. S*leep paralysis occurs either when falling asleep, or when awakening*. *When it occurs upon falling asleep, the person remains aware while the body shuts down for REM sleep, and it is called hypnagogic or predormital sleep paralysis*. When it occurs upon awakening, the person becomes aware before the REM cycle is complete, and it is called hypnopompic or postdormital.[10] The paralysis can last from several seconds to several minutes



And can also be found in this medical study :
http://tinyurl.com/cf9d7fu

By any chance, does anybody has access to the full text?

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## gab

We are not trying to deny that SP exists and some people experience it, where others don't. Or to nitpick when exactly does it occur. The issue here is, that for the sake of WILDing, you don't need to wait for SP, experience it or get past it in order to successfully achieve WILD. 

If you experience SP, that's fine, if you don't, that's fine too. Either way, you are able to achieve WILD. People who do experience SP, they already know about it. But when people who don't experience it are told that the road to WILD leads through SP, they will wait for it and often cancel their attempt, because they think they are doing something wrong.

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## frost458

Oh I see my bad, might be because I'm not a native english speaker and I tend to "fly-over" some words when reading.
someone told me "SP while trying to fall asleep is called NREM"

But NREM is what people experience before *h*ypnagogic *s*leep *p*aralysis when trying to WILD. and if successful will never reach HSP.

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## gab

> Oh I see my bad, might be because I'm not a native english speaker and I tend to "fly-over" some words when reading.
> someone told me "SP while trying to fall asleep is called NREM"
> 
> But NREM is what people experience before *h*ypnagogic *s*leep *p*aralysis when trying to WILD. and if successful will never reach HSP.



No worries, no harm done ::alien::   I just don't think, that knowing the name of the event that most of the people don't even experience helps them pull off already quite complicated process of WILDing. 

During NREM, you may feel all sorts of sensations, like vibrations, hovering, sounds, but not SP. You get REM atonia, when you actually start to dream. But that doesn't mean, you are completely paralyzed, just harder to move.

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## Mzzkc

> If I understand right what he meant was : full body paralysis does not occurs during NREM.
> Am I right?



Correct.

Sleep paralysis is not at all likely to occur during N1, N2, and N3 sleep--unless you have an even rarer disorder than sleep paralysis itself.

You know what...no.

I'm not rehashing everything that's been said here...again. Read through this entirety of this thread or wait for the sticky addressing this topic.





> Well I disagree.
> I get Full body paralysis *both* in SP and NREM, only difference is that I can choose to not let it happen in NREM (if I move before full body paralysis).



Your logic is bad, and you should feel bad.

Come back with EEG readings and a detailed subjective timeline that supports your "opinion" and I'll consider it more seriously.






> Oh I see my bad, might be because I'm not a native english speaker and I tend to "fly-over" some words when reading.
> someone told me "SP while trying to fall asleep is called NREM"



NREM is NREM.

Sleep paralysis is sleep paralysis.

SP is an acronym used by the LDing community that is completely ambiguous and often lumps NREM, sleep paralysis, REM, and other nonsense together in a random order.





> But NREM is what people experience before *h*ypnagogic *s*leep *p*aralysis when trying to WILD. and if successful will never reach HSP.



WTF is HSP?

Google reveals no relevant results. Nor does Wikipedia.

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## Sageous

^^ Could HSP be "Hypnagogic Sleep Paralysis," per Frost's post and bolds?

Of course, I have no idea what that even means. Care to elaborate, Frost?

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## Sivason

I am now taking any testamonials from any one interested in contirbuting to a thread, the one mentioned above. Follow this link, http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/work-a...24/index2.html

For this part of the thread you do not need to be an expert at WILD. I want to consider two types of testimonials. State first (on that thread) if you are experienced with WILD, or suffer from true sleep paralysis. Then read the way we have each set up our response, and contribute something for consideration. So experienced in WILD with an opinion on the issue (see above posts), or anyone who can describe first hand info about true medical SP.






> Thanks for your help so far everyone. I will be putting the thread together Tuesday morning. I need to complete it and move on before I become less interested. I want to keep it simple.
> 
> I have 4 testimonials so far. If you (anyone with lots of experience in WILD) post a potential contribution on this thread, it may be included in the final product, tuesday. I will leave it unstickied for a few days, to let the other staff members decide if it would be good as a sticky.

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## Sageous

^^ You might want to doublecheck that link, Sivason; on my machine it took me to a "Sorry, no matches" prompt.  It could be me, but I figured I'd mention it.

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## melanieb

> ^^ You might want to doublecheck that link, Sivason; on my machine it took me to a "Sorry, no matches" prompt.  It could be me, but I figured I'd mention it.



The link works now. Looks like Sivason saw your post and edited.   :smiley:

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## sanctum

> SP is an acronym used by the LDing community that is completely ambiguous and often lumps NREM, sleep paralysis, REM, and other nonsense together in a random order.



The term "SP" might be vague, but in this case, I agree with what Sageous said earlier:





> WILD, and LD'ing itself, is a singular expression of self-awareness, in and of itself. To parse it into separate bits and pieces only reduces the expression.



If we compartmentalize the process of WILDing, newcomers will most likely treat WILDing as a series of steps to check off.  This defeats the entire process, which depends on a balance between self-awareness and mindlessness.  I don't think SP is all that important to mention, except to clear up misconceptions.  Besides, one should remain still during WILDs, so not being able to move shouldn't be a problem.

If we do continue to describe SP, I agree that it should be under a new name.  The term "paralysis" can be unnecessarily frightening for newcomers, or it can cause temptation to try to move during the process ("what was that feeling? Is this SP? Can I move my leg? Oh, I can. Okay, stop thinking. Relax. Relax." etc.).

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## Mzzkc

> If we compartmentalize the process of WILDing, newcomers will most likely treat WILDing as a series of steps to check off.  This defeats the entire process, which depends on a balance between self-awareness and mindlessness.  I don't think SP is all that important to mention, except to clear up misconceptions.  Besides, one should remain still during WILDs, so not being able to move shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> If we do continue to describe SP, I agree that it should be under a new name.  The term "paralysis" can be unnecessarily frightening for newcomers, or it can cause temptation to try to move during the process ("what was that feeling? Is this SP? Can I move my leg? Oh, I can. Okay, stop thinking. Relax. Relax." etc.).



While I agree with the theory, compartmentalization is necessary for effective teaching to a broad audience. In small teaching sessions (where the students are known) other, more precise (if vague) explanations can be given, since the students can more readily ask questions and receive a personalized response that addresses any gaps in the material taught.

In plainer (compartmentalized) terms:
- For big tutorials (viewed by hundreds or thousands) well-structured, easy to approach material works best for general teaching (Wikipedia uses this approach).
- In smaller, more focused groups, a discourse is ideal for teaching complicated subjects (think Graduate level classes and above).

Of course, compartmentalization isn't inherently good, as it can make anything seem credible, even if the person who put the tutorial together really had no idea what they were talking about.

You'll find that same issue in smaller group discussions as well...

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## Sageous

^^  But I think there is a difference between teaching in a compartmentalizing manner (like breaking WILD into chapters, as my "class" did) in order to disseminate the "Big Picture," or allowing the subjects of said compartmentalization to become much more than just so many puzzle pieces.  I think that's what's happened with SP and why it all needs to be undone. 

The compartments cannot be larger than their container.

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## Mzzkc

> The *compartment*s cannot be larger than their *container*.



You do realize those two words relate roughly to the same thing in that metaphor. XP

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## cmind

> You do realize those two words relate roughly to the same thing in that metaphor. XP



This is getting difficult to follow...

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## Sageous

Hopefully this won't make it harder...





> The compartments cannot be larger than their container.







> You do realize those two words relate roughly to the same thing in that metaphor. XP



Actually they don't, given that a container is a whole unto itself, and a compartment -- though it does indeed contain things -- can only be a part of a greater whole, or container.  In other words, containers can have compartments, but compartments cannot have containers (and you know what I mean; I don't want to hear about peanut butter jars in the kitchen cabinets).

That said, I think the metaphor still works either way, in terms of summing up what I was saying.


 ::cheers::

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## LucasPotter

> Yes, NREM is an umbrella term that encompasses all sleep stages and sensations prior to REM sleep. I don't see how you can refute its applicability as appropriate terminology. What do you experience during WILD attempts? Vibrations? Hypnagogia? Spinning? Floating? Dampened senses? Buzzing?
> 
> All of those are characteristic of NREM sleep.
> 
> A sense of dread, full-body paralysis, and open-eyed hallucinations are characteristic of conscious sleep paralysis.
> 
> Numbness, tingling, a sense of discomfort, and difficulty of movement are characteristic of neither sleep paralysis or NREM. These _are_ however characteristic of a self-induced trance state (aka self-hypnosis) brought about by relaxation, remaining still for a long time, and the belief that you are experiencing "sleep paralysis" and thus cannot move.



I found this whole thread very interesting! I'm not done reading it, though, but I'd like to go just a little off-topic with this post. I have one question and hopefully someone here will be able to answer me. First of all, I'm VERY ignorant, so feel free to roll your eyes as you read this.

I hear buzzing, I've heard whispering/breathing on my ear before. My body gets numb, I feel tingling. It feels like my body is heavy, but it also feels like I can't tell how my body is, as in the position, I can't tell if the palms of my hands are up or down. I _know_ that I can move if I want to, so it's definitely not paralysis, but even without the whispering/breathing on my ear, I get this irrational feeling of fear. My hearts beats very fast, there's nothing bad going on, I don't see anything (except those shiny, colourful dots you see when you close your eyes), but I still sweat a lot in fear, and it's fear of NOTHING.

So, my question is... what can I call this? Is it more than one thing? Is it even part of trying to WILD? Or is just a mix of things that happen when you try to WILD _plus_ things that I'm adding, possibly out of anxiety or something?

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## Sageous

^^ I'm sure Mzzkc will offer a clear explanation, but how about you don't call it anything, ignore it all, and move on to your lucid dream?

I'm not rolling my eyes, mind you, but I am suggesting that being ignorant to all the "definitions" that are being attached to the noise you encounter during your WILD transition might be a very good thing.  Hang onto that ignorance; keep the dream and nothing else a priority, and you will be much more successful in bringing your self-awareness to the dream.

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## LucasPotter

The whole "no definitions" thing sounds good to me, thanks.  :smiley:

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## gab

It's a shame, that all sensations we may/may not experience as falling asleep consiously were lumped together under one term - SP. I think this is a perfect summary of what is and what is not SP. 





> What do you experience during WILD attempts? Vibrations? Hypnagogia? Spinning? Floating? Dampened senses? Buzzing?
> 
> All of those are characteristic of NREM sleep.
> 
> A sense of dread, full-body paralysis, and open-eyed hallucinations are characteristic of conscious sleep paralysis.
> 
> Numbness, tingling, a sense of discomfort, and difficulty of movement are characteristic of neither sleep paralysis or NREM. These _are_ however characteristic of a self-induced trance state (aka self-hypnosis) brought about by relaxation, remaining still for a long time, and the belief that you are experiencing "sleep paralysis" and thus cannot move.

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## Scionox

Great thread, i wish more lucid dreamers would know the truth about what is SP and what is not, i really wish.  :Thinking:

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## gab

I have had SP only twice in my life. Long before heard about Lucid dreaming, or tried a WILD.

I felt nothing like WILD sensations and hallucinations I feel during WILD transition. 

So I understand, those are two entirely different events.

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## Scionox

Been practicing WILD for almost a year with success, never experienced SP ever. People really should stop relating them.  :Exclaim:

----------

