# Lucid Dreaming > Dream Control >  >  Stabilization Fundamentals

## Mzzkc

*Foreword:*Greetings fellow oneironauts. I'd like to thank you for taking the time to read through this guide to dream stabilization; it's been a work in progress for a few months now, but I think it's finally done. Before we begin, however,  I would like to add a disclaimer that the conclusions and premises of the guide (namely concerning the formation of dreams) assume that the dreamer incurs no outside interference and are based primarily on my personal experiences and observations. Thanks again. . .

*Introduction*Stabilization remains a big topic in dream control, for, without stabilization, it'd be difficult to get anything done whilst lucid. This being the case, the field is, admittedly, well-traversed; the numerous methods, developed over the years, to help achieve this feat are proof of that. Still, what's been sorely missing is a plunge into the theory dwelling beneath the turbulent waters of these seemingly random techniques. That's not to say this guide won't have practical applications (I assure you, it will), but to master stabilization it helps to have a strong grasp on how it works, and why.

*The Underlying Mechanic*To understand stabilization, you must first understand how dreams are formed.

Associations are the key to unlocking this mystery.

Specifically, dreams form around the schematic associations we attribute to whatever has our attention. 

Or, put simply, your dream is like a tree. Rooted by the events that occur throughout your waking life, it grows, takes shape, continuously branching out at new junctures. In the context of a dream, those junctures, branches from the trunk, symbolize the paths your dream could follow based on where you're focused. The focus is what lets the branches and offshoots come about, but it's _what_ you're focused on that determines the shape each of them will take.

Put really simply: What you focus on will determine the path your dream takes.

The crucial thing is that you recognize the importance your attention has when it comes to forming dreams. Which brings us to our next section.

*What is Dream Stabilization?*Seems pretty straightforward, right? Well, then it shouldn't be too hard for you to come up with a solid definition (that doesn't use the word “stabilize”) right here, right now, yeah?

Go ahead.

I'll wait. . .



Not as easy as it sound, is it? 

The only DV tutorial on the subject defines Dream Stabilization as “attempting to stabilize the lucid dream.” 

But what use is that, to define something with its inherent meaning? The definition above is exactly the same as saying Internet Trolling is “attempting to troll on the Internet.” It tells us nothing we didn't already know, and, so, we cannot learn from it. 

We need to go deeper.

Dream: “a series of mental images and emotions occurring during sleep”Stabilization: “the act of stabilizing something or making it more stable”Stabilize: “become stable or more stable”Stable: “maintaining equilibrium”Equilibrium: “balance: equality of distribution”
I think we've got something workable here.

Stabilization then, I propose, is the act of becoming balanced or maintaining balance.

But how does this relate to dreams? What could possibly require balancing in “a series of mental images and emotions occurring during sleep”? 

The easy answer is: “Everything.” The conventional way of thinking about dreams leads most to believe that Dream Stabilization means facilitating those mental images and keeping those pesky emotions in check. But the true answer is more subtle than that.

Focus and attention, foundations on which dreams, those “mental images and emotions,” are formed, constantly shifting, constantly deciding the flow, the stability, of a dream.

So, what is Dream Stabilization, really?

My proposition: Dream Stabilization is the act of balancing attention within a dream.

The astute among you will ask, “Balancing attention? Between what? You've only given me one side: the dream, images and emotions.” And you're right, there is another side. But it's one that appears almost exclusively during lucid dreams.

*The Other Side*On one side we have the dream, that's a given, but what's on the other end that's shifting our attention away from the dream?

First, let me ask you another related question: why is it that normal dreams rarely, if ever, require stabilization? 

To answer this, think about the differences between a lucid dream and a non-lucid one. Realize, in a lucid dream, one is aware the environment around them is a dream, that one is in bed, fast asleep, while in a non-lucid one is not aware of these things.

The difference between the two, then, is this profound realization and everything that comes with it. And what accompanies it, you ask? The ability to reason, to think logically, internal processes that require a fair bit of attention.

And there's your answer. Thoughts, rational ideas outside the scope of your current surroundings, all shift the balance of your focus.

*Bringing it all Together*To stabilize a lucid dream, you must create a proper balance between the dream and your conscious, thinking, self. If you pour too much of yourself into the dream, you'll lose your consciousness, your lucidity. Not enough, and the dream will fade entirely, leaving you with nothing but your thoughts as everything fades to black.

Luckily, striking that balance is a path well-worn by the onieronauts before us.

*Common Stabilization Methods*All Stabilization methods have one thing in common: they work to place attention on the dream world. Obviously, like all things concerning LDing, you'll be keen to experiment to see what well works for you, as some methods achieve this balancing feat better than others

A brief list of the very basics:

Hand Rubbing – Good for a quick burst of tactile sensation, puts focus on the dream body.Spinning – Brings your attention not only to the spinning world around you as it blurs about, but to your dream body as well.Shouting for Clarity – Works on multiple levels, from hearing the sound of your own voice, to looking toward your surroundings for a change in vividness.
And that's just start of it.

From there comes sensory stimulation, proven time and again to be a reliable, powerful tool in redirecting attention toward the dreamworld.

Sight – Studying the detail in an ornate archway, the colorful shops and stalls in the marketplace, or each distinct grain of sand.Sound – Noticing the wind as it blows past your ears mid-flight, the chattering of nearby DCs, or even your own voice.Touch – Focusing on the texture of a nearby wall, the cool grass beneath your bare feet, or the wet water pouring from a fountain.Smell – Taking in the scent of fresh baked bread or cookies, the fresh morning air, or even burning rubber.Taste – Fill your mouth with amazing sensations from anything you can find, be it tasty desserts or a cheap sandal.
All of these are sure to help placate your thoughts and turn your attentions to the dreamworld. The more of them you can engage, the better. Personally, I like taking big bites out of trees, as eating a tree evokes so many different senses at once. From the rough, intricate, crunchy bark, to the wet, leafy taste, and fresh smell, it all assaults the senses, making it impossible to ignore the dreamworld.

*Uncommon Stabilization Methods*Beyond the conventional lies the unconventional, or methods that don't follow the standard sensory formula. Most prominent among these are raw shifts of awareness to your surroundings. *There are many ways to go about doing this, but it's something that simply needs to be experienced to be understood at all. 

Those who practice lucid living and all day awareness are more likely to be familiar with pouring attention into their surroundings. In fact, it's likely these people do this automatically whilst lucid, making traditional stabilization almost unnecessary for them. Still, there are ways to actively force focus on your surroundings. Everyone's method will be different depending on their experience with attention shifting, but I'll explain my method below so you'll have something to work with, at the very least.

I came up with this method in particular after reading a bit of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. The idea comes from the battle/meditation technique the main character is taught early on: to create a flame in his mind's eye and focus on it completely, deflecting all outside thoughts. 

I start by taking in the world around me, but not just what I can see; I use everything I can sense, making it my proverbial flame, making it all important, pouring my focus into it so that everything around me is complete and free from my conscious thoughts. 

And just like that, the dream becomes stable, whilst I retain my lucidity. What's amazing is that this process doesn't take more than a moment and can be used at almost any time; I've lost count of the number of lucids this little trick has kept me from losing.

*Conclusion*I hope this guide to stabilization fundamentals proved at the very least, interesting to you. If it was helpful, that's even better. =)

If you have any questions, comments, concerns, or flames, I'll be more than happy to address them.

Cheers!

-(T)zzkc

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## Dark_Merlin

I think the way you've put a definition to 'dream stabilization' is excellent, very helpful  :smiley: 

I like the idea of taking a bite of a tree, I've never thought of that!

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## albatr0n

Nice post

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## Mewantmorpie

Very Very helpful, i plan on putting all of these stabilization techniques to good use tonight.  :tongue2:  Because I'm gonna have a lucid dream.  ::D:

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## Aeolar

Wow. Excellent work there! I'm proud to call myself a dreamer. ^.^

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## Reclypso

Exactly what I was looking for at the perfect time thanks!

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## angie746

Thanks great post, having troubles with stabilising at the moment so will give these a try and neither would i have thought of eating a tree lol ill message you if i still have probs,  :smiley:

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## Cethulsus

REALLY helpful, and interesting. I also greatly approve of your taste in books.
R.I.P Robert Jordan

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## zhineTech

> I came up with this method in particular after reading a bit of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. The idea comes from the battle/meditation technique the main character is taught early on: to create a flame in his mind's eye and focus on it completely, deflecting all outside thoughts. 
> 
> I start by taking in the world around me, but not just what I can see; I use everything I can sense, making it my proverbial flame, making it all important, pouring my focus into it so that everything around me is complete and free from my conscious thoughts. 
> 
> And just like that, the dream becomes stable, whilst I retain my lucidity. What's amazing is that this process doesn't take more than a moment and can be used at almost any time; I've lost count of the number of lucids this little trick has kept me from losing.[/indent]



The Void!

Love me some WOT...

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## Ctharlhie

Excellent tutorial. The idea of 'balance' in the dream really appeals to me.

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## Keris

Agreed, your definition of dream stabilization as a balance between rational thoughts and the dream itself makes a lot of sense.  I recently saved a lucid dream from fading off by using the spinning technique, but after the dream stabilized, I lost lucidity (though on the bright side, I gained a fedora for some reason).  So maybe I put _to much_ attention into the dream.

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## Zerk

I remember when I looked up what trolling was and all it said was to troll on the internet. Good job breaking to down to the basics, appreciate the logic in all of this.  ::D:

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## labyrint

Nice tutorial thnx. Helpfull to me, not only for dreams and dreaming but also for ada and meditations.





> Focus and attention, foundations on which dreams, those “mental images and emotions,” are formed, constantly shifting, constantly deciding the flow, the stability, of a dream.



Let me ask your opinion about next thing: if dreams are formed by mental images and emotions, what could be method of equilibrious dreamsift that doesn't make you loose your sense of dreaming (I'm not talking about complete lucidity, that may go away)? How to slightly undo stability of given dream without getting sucked into reflections of wants and subconscious needs? I have some insight about this, but would like to hear some other views. I've heard about portal techniques and focus on the door before opening it or even opening it many times till it grants you a way to another dream. For me, these kind of sifting techniques hadn't work that well. Dreams had collapsed and sense of dreaming had been lost. Sometimes I've woken up (which isn't that bad thing, cause if I woke up after going through a door I'll have ada from the beginning of the morning). I'm pretty sure that I'll find those dreams that can handlle portals but so far I haven't been able to remember them,
Is there allready good guide to dreamsifting that doesn't focus so much on magical techniques? Many dreams I have doesn't allow certain impossibilities. Or then again, maybe they just aren't stable enough





> I start by taking in the world around me, but not just what I can see; I use everything I can sense, making it my proverbial flame, making it all important, pouring my focus into it so that everything around me is complete and free from my conscious thoughts.



I've practiced same thing with yantra-meditation though nowdays it doesn't resemble the yantra I begin with

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## Ctharlhie

Don't take this as an attack on the great work you've done here, Mzzkc, I just want to delve deeper into the issue of stabilising dreams.  :smiley: 

You talk about establishing an equilibrium, a balance of attention. But then you do not really state what you are balancing your attention between, you describe focusing on the dream environment but not the other thing that you need to balance your attention on, one side of the coin.

I think to have a successful dream you need to balance your attention between the dream scene and your cognition. The two ways that people waste a lucid dream is through losing touch with the dream scene (resulting in awakening) or through having low cognition (leading to a loss in lucidity). Any dreamer who does not invest enough attention in the dream risks detaching from the dream entirely while on the flipside, not giving attention to cognition may lead to becoming to engrossed in the content of the dream and losing awareness.

The majority of literature on stability mentions only engaging the dream environment (spinning and hand rubbing being the staples), while cognition is sorely neglected. How many lucid dreams have you had that resulted in a semi-conscious mess because you didn't think clearly enough to remember some sort of dream goal and instead rushed at the first mundane thing that caught your attention?

I've found doing simple mental maths is a very effective way of raising cognitive awareness.

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## Mzzkc

> Nice tutorial thnx. Helpfull to me, not only for dreams and dreaming but also for ada and meditations.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me ask your opinion about next thing: if dreams are formed by mental images and emotions, what could be method of equilibrious dreamsift that doesn't make you loose your sense of dreaming (I'm not talking about complete lucidity, that may go away)? How to slightly undo stability of given dream without getting sucked into reflections of wants and subconscious needs? I have some insight about this, but would like to hear some other views. I've heard about portal techniques and focus on the door before opening it or even opening it many times till it grants you a way to another dream. For me, these kind of sifting techniques hadn't work that well. Dreams had collapsed and sense of dreaming had been lost. Sometimes I've woken up (which isn't that bad thing, cause if I woke up after going through a door I'll have ada from the beginning of the morning). I'm pretty sure that I'll find those dreams that can handlle portals but so far I haven't been able to remember them,
> Is there allready good guide to dreamsifting that doesn't focus so much on magical techniques? Many dreams I have doesn't allow certain impossibilities. Or then again, maybe they just aren't stable enough
> 
> 
> 
> I've practiced same thing with yantra-meditation though nowdays it doesn't resemble the yantra I begin with



Check out my guide on Archetype Control. It makes use of how the brain forms dreams naturally to give you the results you want.





> Don't take this as an attack on the great work you've done here, Mzzkc, I just want to delve deeper into the issue of stabilising dreams. 
> 
> You talk about establishing an equilibrium, a balance of attention. But then you do not really state what you are balancing your attention between, you describe focusing on the dream environment but not the other thing that you need to balance your attention on, one side of the coin.
> 
> I think to have a successful dream you need to balance your attention between the dream scene and your cognition. The two ways that people waste a lucid dream is through losing touch with the dream scene (resulting in awakening) or through having low cognition (leading to a loss in lucidity). Any dreamer who does not invest enough attention in the dream risks detaching from the dream entirely while on the flipside, not giving attention to cognition may lead to becoming to engrossed in the content of the dream and losing awareness.
> 
> The majority of literature on stability mentions only engaging the dream environment (spinning and hand rubbing being the staples), while cognition is sorely neglected. How many lucid dreams have you had that resulted in a semi-conscious mess because you didn't think clearly enough to remember some sort of dream goal and instead rushed at the first mundane thing that caught your attention?
> 
> I've found doing simple mental maths is a very effective way of raising cognitive awareness.



I think you should re-read the sections entitled "The Other Side" and "Bringing It All Together".

You'll see our conclusions are the same. In this guide, I focused more on putting attention on the dreamscape, because the most common issue newbies have once becoming lucid is throwing _way_ too much focus onto their inner thoughts, what they're going to do, how they're going to do it, etc. Which usually ends with a nice awakening.

But yes, to retain lucidity consciousness/cognition is the thing you're balancing against the attention you give to the dreamscape, as I explained in those sections.

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## Ctharlhie

Ah, seems I jumped the gun there  :smiley:

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## Mzzkc

No, it's good you came to that conclusion on your own. ^.^

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## MarineRecon

This is a very helpful post/tut. It really cleared up alot of things for me. My next LD is going to be crystal clear!  :smiley:

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## AndresLD

Thank you, just this morning I lost my Lucid Dream in just a couple of seconds due to lack of stability. It was a dry-spell breaker though, so at least I got that.
I will keep this in mind for my next lucid.

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## The Cusp

I was to write a thread about stabilization tonight since I'm sick on newyears, but now I see there's no need!

Since dream stabilization is so strongly tied to first becoming lucid, it's safe to assume it's good for everyone to use a stable 3D environment.  It's a how we interact with the real world all day every day, so the rules are very stable and take care of themselves.  

*Reference points.*
To create a 3D game environment, you would need at least 4 major reference points.  The player, and the X,Y,Z axis.  Dream stabilization should involve setting anchor points in the dream for your attention that emulate the PlayerXYZ model.  Hand rubbing takes care of the player or dreamer variable, but does nothing for the XYZ anchor points.  Moving briskly will force you to interact with the ground will force an X and Y axis, and further interacting with an increasingly 3D environment will eventually bring in the Z axis.

A dream body isn't strictly necessary, just a point of perspective, again much like different views in 3D game.  1st person, 3rd person, disembodied observer.  But a body offers super stability, and does come in handy, so that's probably a good thing to start with if you're looking for stability.

Great thread.  Occupy the Lucid!

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## Astrosomnia

I literally loled when I read the tree biting suggestion. That's a brilliant, elegant and hilarious solution that I'm definitely going to utilise. I'd love to know the thought process that lead to you biting your first tree...

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## Mzzkc

It was a spur of the moment kind of thing. The lucid was destabilizing quite quickly, and nothing I did seemed to help, so in an act of desperation I ran over to a nearby tree--the only 'edible' thing in the area besides grass and my own dream-flesh--and took a big bite out of it. Immediately my senses were bombarded with the taste of the bark, the moistness of the viscous sap, and so many other sensations. Just like that, I had extended my dream-time by a good couple minutes. Some upkeep was required afterwards, but it saved me from waking where everything else had failed me.

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## fOrceez

How likely is putting yourself too much in the dream going to not only make you lose lucidity but the whole dream collapse? The past 10 or so lucid dreams have collapse on themselves despite my attempts to stabilise. My attempts included rubbing hands while looking at them and summoning a flower to smell (in the last attempt, both of these were tried).

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## Ctharlhie

If you pay too much attention to one little element in the dream then you may lose track of the scene as a whole. Sometimes I find the 'focus on tiny sensory details' can be unhelpful as it's almost like ignoring the dream in favour of some random object you've found lying around. Again as Mzzkc has said, dream control seems to work through careful manipulation of attention.

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## Mzzkc

> How likely is putting yourself too much in the dream going to not only make you lose lucidity but the whole dream collapse? The past 10 or so lucid dreams have collapse on themselves despite my attempts to stabilise. My attempts included rubbing hands while looking at them and summoning a flower to smell (in the last attempt, both of these were tried).



It's not likely both will happen.

In this cases you described there's really nothing extraordinary about losing the dream after using those techniques, since both are fairly ineffectual to begin with. As Ctharlhie mentioned, small bits of sensory input here and there aren't going to do you much good. In the end, you need to be spreading around your attention as evenly as possible.

Yes, huge bursts of sensory input are often useful for prolonging the dream a bit longer, but small things, like handrubbing, aren't going to help you much unless you're simultaneously distributing attention elsewhere.

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## yuppie11975

Great guide!  :smiley: 
One question, has anyone ever considered stabalization is unnecessary? I'm sure we all know that what we hear, and what we expect plays a BIG part in our dreams. Being told that stabalization is neccesary to prolong dreams puts us in a sense of mind that it IS necessary. The longest lucid I had didn't have any stabalization in it. Stephen la berge's studies didn't mention a single bit of stabalization, and he is pretty much the undisputed master of lucid dreaming..

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## Ctharlhie

Laberge created the techniques of hand rubbing and spinning and carried out studies with lucid dreamers to measure their effectiveness.

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## Mzzkc

It's not necessary if your awareness is already balanced correctly, which is often the case with natural and self-taught LDers, the core participants in LaBerge's early research, if I'm not mistaken (conclusion based on knowledge of LDing's obscurity at the time, feel free to correct).

It's when people are introduced to shortcuts and attain lucidity without first building up the ideal discipline and mindset that problems like this tend to occur. Sure, some part of it is caused by the dreamer themselves when they go into a lucid with false information (regarding the causes of destabilization).

But really, if destabilization was never based in some reality to begin with, I doubt it would have been blown out of proportion this much.

Also, I don't think LaBerge is the master of lucid dreaming. A pioneer in terms of scientific research into the subject, sure, but there are folks out there way more experienced, if not necessarily as knowledgeable about some of the finer details. Also, which of his publications have you looked over (research papers included). I'm assuming all or most and not just ETWOLD, given your claim/suggestion.

I'll be honest, I haven't read any of his material (or any book on LDing for that matter), all the stuff I've been putting out there I've tried to compile and learn on my own so as to avoid bias as much as possible.

Edit: Ah, seems Ctharlhie knows more about his research than I do. XP

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## Ctharlhie

I kinda consider ETWOLD to be a modern dreaming holy text, I would say that 90% of guides posted on DV are rehashes of techniques discussed by Stephen even if the poster has never read his works (one of the things I love about LDing is how everyone seems to come to the same truths independently) :S

The study most people are familiar with is the 1975 eye response experiment in which Laberge drew the psychological establishment's attention to the existence of lucid dreaming, but he's still researching.

Most of his work is condensed into readable articles on this site: LUCID DREAMING Some of it is necessarily very basic, but then it is aimed at beginners.

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## Mzzkc

> I would say that 90% of guides posted on DV are rehashes of techniques discussed by Stephen.



So. . . LaBerge's work is filled with a bunch of misinformation? XP

But seriously, I'll read it myself before drawing any real conclusions.

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## yuppie11975

> So. . . LaBerge's work is filled with a bunch of misinformation? XP
> 
> But seriously, I'll read it myself before drawing any real conclusions.



You're such a dick.. people put alot of work into tut's.  And by the way, your tutorials don't have great positive comments on them either..

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## Linkzelda

Everyone has a way in finding the truth. It seems condescending to think everyone else that makes a guide is just a pathetic show of incompetence. Not even the most prominent guides will suit everyone. Everyone keeps saying these are rehashes or what other icon made already, but the difference in people making the guides is showing how they experienced it. It's because of associations that makes one think that they are repeats. 

If body and and spirit is important (or just the mindset if you want to be practical) in learning lucidity and stabilization rather than technique, to declare that 90% of the guides on DV are misinformation is to say that how that person experienced lucidity would be contradicting the ability to make a guide in a first place. I'm not disagreeing with anyone here, I just find it ironic that if one should focus on the mindset, and thinks the mindset of others is nonsense and repeats, then what's the point in contributing how the person felt attaining the lucidity?

Sometimes these "repeats" are a good way of learning things from a different perspective. Sometimes the answers are right in front of them, but their schemata doesn't want to accept it, so they go to other guides until one triggers it. 

I like your guides Mzzkc, honestly, because I can tell you offer a simple format for me to understand concepts of what you think is ideal in triggering your lucidity and stabilization, but it doesn't mean it will always work for others. Some people don't have the mentality that you possess to easily trigger these important mindsets, they still need more perspective before it gets drilled into their brain.

That's why there are other guides here, and it's up to the person to decide whether or not it isn't going to help them or not, but to say 90% of them are just misinformation is something that doesn't relate to your schemata. You already established yours for dreaming, and it is typical to think others are misinformation when you already found the solution that you know that you can be conservative with until something else better makes itself apparent.

You can't teach people how to think, you can only teach them techniques, you can make a good representation of a format people can follow, but people should be aware that they are taking a risk from personal development if guides start pulling in official sources.

They should already be cognizant that saying "official" is basically saying "research this on your own if you don't believe me" which is exactly what they should do. And you have done nothing wrong with your guides in my opinion. You offer your insight and the dedication you put into is going to be respected by others. But one cannot just say the others are misinformation.

Then again, you're right, it is just the internet  :tongue2:

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## Mzzkc

> You're such a dick.. people put alot of work into tut's.  And by the way, your tutorials don't have great positive comments on them either..



That's because I'm such a dick. XP

People can learn from the information I give them or not, I don't really care, since it's their choice and I'll never have a real say in that. What I do care about is misinformation being perpetuated by 'official' sources that steals time from people and hurts their personal development. I'm not going to back down from that stance, even if it makes me a few enemies in the process.

Also, spending a lot of time putting something together with the best intentions in mind doesn't excuse or shield a poor, finished product from criticism and scrutiny. I welcome that sort of thing on my threads and respond openly, as do most other tutorial writers here. It's the people who put in the time that should  be respected for that dedication, but their work should be open to criticism without a self-righteous, third-party, feel-gooder jumping in with personal attacks that do nothing to address the content of an argument.

But hey, this is the internet, so to hell with (mostly) sarcastic, intellectual jives and debate! Let's just call each other names and be done with it! =D

----Preemptive Post-Merge----

I'm glad you posted some actual content to respond to, Link. 

Thanks. ^.^





> Everyone has a way in finding the truth. It seems condescending to think everyone else that makes a guide is just a pathetic show of incompetence. Not even the most prominent guides will suit everyone. Everyone keeps saying these are rehashes or what other icon made already, but the difference in people making the guides is showing how they experienced it. It's because of associations that makes one think that they are repeats.



I don't think that at all, my comment was a light-hearted jab at a real problem this site is facing, not something to be taken very seriously (hence the "But seriously"). I'll concede ambiguous prose on this point, but I won't concede the fact that a lot of guides here, while great on the whole, pass on small, harmful bits of misinformation, for one reason or another. 

Still, a lot of the time you see rehashes of information, it's because they are exactly that: rehashes. Usually, they're done in a way that pulls together a bunch of information from a variety of sources, not all of which are entirely personal. That's one of the reasons a lot of misleading information still exists today.

Of course, none of this suggests a particular guide is bad, or the person who compiled/wrote it was evil or trying to lead the population astray, nor does this suggest this is the way most writers put together their guides. It's just something that inevitably happens and people need to watch out for.





> If body and and spirit is important (or just the mindset if you want to be practical) in learning lucidity and stabilization rather than technique, to declare that 90% of the guides on DV are misinformation is to say that how that person experienced lucidity would be contradicting the ability to make a guide in a first place. I'm not disagreeing with anyone here, I just find it ironic that if one should focus on the mindset, and thinks the mindset of others is nonsense and repeats, then what's the point in contributing how the person felt attaining the lucidity?



I'm not sure I'm following you 100% on this one, so please clarify your position if it seems like I missed the mark:

I'm not knocking anyone's experience. The only things I'd ever have a problem with are how they present and explain it. On all of my guides, I try to make sure the reader understands that they shouldn't take what I write as law, and they should do their own research and contest my views if they find them incorrect. See, I love being right, that's a given, but if someone can provide a solid argument that lets me see things their way and convinces me I'm fundamentally wrong (not hard to do if you've got your facts together), I'll ditch that old way of thinking in a heartbeat. Why? Because I don't live in the past; I can only be right in the here and now, so why hold onto flawed ideas?

I think that's a pretty healthy mindset to have, especially when it comes to LDing, where success can arise from your ability to be aware of the present. That said, I couldn't accurately tell you the mindset of 90% of guide writers. And if I could, I doubt it would be restricted to a single outlook, since these are individuals we're talking about, all of whom have lived different lives and come from varying backgrounds.

Again, please clarify yourself if it looks like I didn't address your points, because to me it looks like I missed the mark a bit.





> Sometimes these "repeats" are a good way of learning things from a different perspective. Sometimes the answers are right in front of them, but their schemata doesn't want to accept it, so they go to other guides until one triggers it.



I completely agree. That doesn't stop pieces of misinformation from falling through the cracks, however.





> I like your guides Mzzkc, honestly, because I can tell you offer a simple format for me to understand concepts of what you think is ideal in triggering your lucidity and stabilization, but it doesn't mean it will always work for others. Some people don't have the mentality that you possess to easily trigger these important mindsets, they still need more perspective before it gets drilled into their brain.



Yep. I try to keep things beginner friendly every once in awhile, but most of the stuff I put out there is meant for more experienced or knowledgeable LDers such as yourself. It's a bit of an issue, but I've come to accept that I suck at writing material that complete novices will be able to fully digest and get to work. I do hope that people that stick with things for awhile can see some value in what I've put together, but there's not much I can do about that except help out those that ask for further explanation and encourage them to look into other resources besides my own.





> That's why there are other guides here, and it's up to the person to decide whether or not it isn't going to help them or not, but to say 90% of them are just misinformation is something that doesn't relate to your schemata. You already established yours for dreaming, and it is typical to think others are misinformation when you already found the solution that you know that you can be conservative with until something else better makes itself apparent.



Again, I'm in agreement here. Other guides are necessary, but they don't have to promote certain pieces of information as absolute truth simply because it's in a prominent place on a website. Accepting things only because you've been told them by someone in authority is abhorrent, in my opinion, and I'll do what I can to bring attention to that sort of thing in the hopes it'll cause at least one person out there to seriously question what they've taken to be fact.

Edit: Blarg, so many posts made while I was writing this. I must construct additional pylons replies.

----------


## mcwillis

> Any dreamer who does not invest enough attention in the dream risks detaching from the dream entirely while on the flipside, not giving attention to cognition may lead to becoming to engrossed in the content of the dream and losing awareness.



How true.  I have to be careful sometimes not to get caught up in the 'drama' of a dream, because if I do it quickly leads to the dream collapsing.  However when confronted with this problem I use the following beautiful technique to recycle my lucids.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f12/recycl...dreams-119041/

By the way Mzzkc an excellent tutorial nonetheless.

----------


## yuppie11975

> It's the people who put in the time that should  be respected for that dedication, but their work should be open to criticism without a self-righteous, third-party, feel-gooder jumping in with personal attacks that do nothing to address the content of an argument.
> 
> But hey, this is the internet, so to hell with (mostly) sarcastic, intellectual jives and debate! Let's just call each other names and be done with it! =D



xD, but really, in what way were you contributing to the relevant subject by saying (not directly, but meaning) that 90% of people's guides are uninformative and wrong. As linkzelda said, a guide is CORRECT no matter what, if it helped the poster, or someone else. Because a guide to lucid dreaming is a way TO GET LUCID so even if they are variations of a method or "re-hashes" then if they work for the person, they're a good guide..

----------


## Mzzkc

> How true.  I have to be careful sometimes not to get caught up in the 'drama' of a dream, because if I do it quickly leads to the dream collapsing.  However when confronted with this problem I use the following beautiful technique to recycle my lucids.
> 
> http://www.dreamviews.com/f12/recycl...dreams-119041/
> 
> By the way Mzzkc an excellent tutorial nonetheless.



That's actually an incredibly awesome way to maintain stability. Essentially, it's a simple, foolproof way of interacting with an environment otherwise becoming completely devoid of sensory information. Genius, really.





> xD, but really, in what way were you contributing to the relevant subject by saying (not directly, but meaning) that 90% of people's guides are uninformative and wrong. As linkzelda said, a guide is CORRECT no matter what, if it helped the poster, or someone else. Because a guide to lucid dreaming is a way TO GET LUCID so even if they are variations of a method or "re-hashes" then if they work for the person, they're a good guide..



There's a difference between something that has misinformation in it, and something that is completely wrong and uninformative. 

Also, I don't share your view that a guide to lucid dreaming should be a way to "get lucid." I feel it's more important that a guide provide someone with the tools they need to discover their own path towards consistent lucidity. Generally, a big difference I've seen between extremely successful LDers, and those who only experience occasional lucidity, is that the former figured out their own way of doing things, while the latter are trying to emulate what the former have already done. There are no shortcuts to LDing consistently. As such, I feel guides should try to avoid those sorts of things whenever possible and instead focus on helping people understand the process behind things.

Again, just my opinion; everyone has their own end goals. I try to cater to people who want to LD almost every day and gain a deeper understanding of the dreamworld, since that was my original goal and the path I've taken since. Other people want a quick fix and don't much care about specifics. Neither goal is less admirable, but misinformation tends to hurt those who choose the former more than the latter, so I try to do my part to defend against that harm whenever possible. 

If that means taking a sarcastic, exaggerated jab at the issue, in the hopes that some attention will float its way, then so be it. XP






> You can't teach people how to think,



But I can try, dammit. =P





> you can only teach them techniques, you can make a good representation of a format people can follow, but people should be aware that they are taking a risk from personal development if guides start pulling in official sources.
> 
> They should already be cognizant that saying "official" is basically saying "research this on your own if you don't believe me" which is exactly what they should do.



They should be, but oftentimes they aren't, since they tend not to think about things that way.





> And you have done nothing wrong with your guides in my opinion. You offer your insight and the dedication you put into is going to be respected by others. But one cannot just say the others are misinformation.



I appreciate the kind words. ^.^

Still, that's not what I was saying or trying to imply. Guides themselves are not misinformation. However, guides may contain misinformation. These things are not mutually exclusive.

But I could totally say what you guys think I've said if I wanted to, or I felt it was true. At least as long as the internet remains a free place, anyways.

----------


## Linkzelda

> I'm not sure I'm following you 100% on this one, so please clarify your position if it seems like I missed the mark:
> 
> I'm not knocking anyone's experience. The only things I'd ever have a problem with are how they present and explain it. On all of my guides, I try to make sure the reader understands that they shouldn't take what I write as law, and they should do their own research and contest my views if they find them incorrect. See, I love being right, that's a given, but if someone can provide a solid argument that lets me see things their way and convinces me I'm fundamentally wrong (not hard to do if you've got your facts together), I'll ditch that old way of thinking in a heartbeat. Why? Because I don't live in the past; I can only be right in the here and now, so why hold onto flawed ideas?
> 
> I think that's a pretty healthy mindset to have, especially when it comes to LDing, where success can arise from your ability to be aware of the present. That said, I couldn't accurately tell you the mindset of 90% of guide writers. And if I could, I doubt it would be restricted to a single outlook, since these are individuals we're talking about, all of whom have lived different lives and come from varying backgrounds.
> 
> Again, please clarify yourself if it looks like I didn't address your points, because to me it looks like I missed the mark a bit.



It's not about being wrong or right, as long as you can defend your opinion or belief in an intelligent manner, that's all that is needed. But sometimes when people can do this, there are mental barriers that prevent them from at least acknowledging that the person is trying to develop a method based on how they think.

Some people's way of thinking may be weird, but it works for them.

You don't need to change your ways in a heartbeat like that, I'm just saying people try their best to offer their beliefs in a civilized manner, and even if you do reject it and challenge it by giving good solid argument that seems to be reasonable, you should at least understand what it is you're trying to reject (not saying you are, I'm just speaking in a way for others who try to put some guides to shame). You don't have to tell them what you think should be right or wrong, but it always helps to at least acknowledge it, at least in your own luxury, what they went through to achieve it. (Again, it's dedication that they want to profess to others to feel a sense of accomplishment and/or contribution).

Because when someone says something negative on something you dedicated yourself into, of course it's going to cause some conflict with egos. It's inevitable, and I'm sure you know that if you don't want to bother with it, you can easily just pass it aside. But I'm not trying to direct this to you in ANY way, it's just acknowledging what the person did with their own mind, their own eyes, their own body. Technique cannot teach you that.

And by the time they read countless guides, even all the good ones, they will have to come to the fact that they must put effort into it on their own, apply it consistently, and know that there will be success in the end. These guides are supplements for them to experiment with how they THINK before they act and give up on the technique you obviously put in a simple format.

You are right with bad information being repeated and yes, it's the person's responsibility to know they are risking development.

If the person who made the guide knows they can get lucid from how they thought was the way for them to reach that state, good for them. If they are just lying and grabbing official sources, then yes, they are wasting their time providing false hopes for other newcomers. But most of the time, especially in this type of forum where not many people pay attention to other guides rather than ones that have some background to them, it would be rare for someone to solely base their guide on official statements, because they're not realizing that it has to be subjective rather than absolute.

I hope this clarifies the confusion. I just think that it's good to have someone like you to give newcomers a basis to start from, but again, as you know, the only way to teach something is to let the person learn from it and teach themselves, they have to mold it into their schemata (which is why things are mostly just variants to those who already accomplished the experience of lucidity and dreaming overall).

But anyway, I like your guides nonetheless, you're passing what you learned from yourself, and hope that others can take it as a supplement, and not as a law. But you should acknowledge others are doing the same.

But this is before I realized you were just saying it was misinformation in a a lighthearted manner.  :Picard face palm:  Now I feel stupid. I couldn't tell your slight joking with the term >.> I just take you seriously when I read your guides because of the dedication to trying to show how you thought things should be based on what you taught yourself.

----------


## Mzzkc

> It's not about being wrong or right, as long as you can defend your opinion or belief in an intelligent manner, that's all that is needed. But sometimes when people can do this, there are mental barriers that prevent them from at least acknowledging that the person is trying to develop a method based on how they think.
> 
> Some people's way of thinking may be weird, but it works for them.
> 
> You don't need to change your ways in a heartbeat like that, I'm just saying people try their best to offer their beliefs in a civilized manner, and even if you do reject it and challenge it by giving good solid argument that seems to be reasonable, you should at least understand what it is you're trying to reject (not saying you are, I'm just speaking in a way for others who try to put some guides to shame). You don't have to tell them what you think should be right or wrong, but it always helps to at least acknowledge it, at least in your own luxury, what they went through to achieve it. (Again, it's dedication that they want to profess to others to feel a sense of accomplishment and/or contribution).
> 
> Because when someone says something negative on something you dedicated yourself into, of course it's going to cause some conflict with egos. It's inevitable, and I'm sure you know that if you don't want to bother with it, you can easily just pass it aside. But I'm not trying to direct this to you in ANY way, it's just acknowledging what the person did with their own mind, their own eyes, their own body. Technique cannot teach you that.



Mmhmm, hence why you don't see me running around the site tearing down other people's guides due to a conflict of perception. The only time you'll see me bring something up I disagree with is when I respect the guide and the person behind it and want to offer some further discussion on a conflicting point of interest. Otherwise, I tend to stay out of others people's guides altogether, since arguing about what is true and what is not, is a silly thing. Like you said, debate shouldn't be about proving or disproving correctness, but helping the other person understand their point of view. 

If after that's said and done, either party wants to change their perspective, that's up to them. Personally, I try not to have any solid beliefs, as I've found it's so much easier to learn and understand if you consider everything presented to you as a possibility and research accordingly. As it were, when I'm in a debate, I tend to automatically assume my opponent is correct while reviewing their points. It's only after I've digested what they've said that I'll apply other experiences and information to their point and see what pops up. This is why a lot of my arguments you'll see on this site are based around providing a counterexample.

Also, as a surprising aside, yuppie calling me a dick amused me more than anything else. The name calling on my part was just to help prove the point that discussion like that gets you nowhere fast. I have no ill-will towards the guy. =)

Still, I'm a pretty big dick. Not a huge dick, but big enough that it's noticeable.

Why do I have the feeling the above line is going to show up in sigs somewhere? >.>

Edit: So many ninja posts going on here. XP For the sake of consistency, I added what I was replying to.





> But this is before I realized you were just saying it was misinformation in a a lighthearted manner.  Now I feel stupid. I couldn't tell your slight joking with the term >.> I just take you seriously when I read your guides because of the dedication to trying to show how you thought things should be based on what you taught yourself.



Lol, I don't take anything seriously. XD

Edit: Except censorship of information, restriction of personal freedoms, and the dissolution of privacy. That shit ain't cool.

----------


## Linkzelda



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## yuppie11975

Lol, I don't take anything seriously. XD

Edit: Except censorship of information, restriction of personal freedoms, and the dissolution of privacy. That shit ain't cool.[/QUOTE]

-cough- SOPA -cough-

Let's all hug and make up n_n
I apolagise mzzkc, I see now you weren't being serious  :smiley: 
And in no way should I have over reacted like that and called you a dick

----------


## Mzzkc

Nah, it's cool. I come off as a dick more often than not, especially when people don't know me or what I'm about. Yeah, I've got strong, often controversial opinions about things, and I don't pull punches when kidding around, but I tend to respect individuals and always consider their ideas and opinions, even if I may end up disagreeing with them.

So, I applaud you for calling it like you saw it. And I applaud you again for hearing me out and understanding my position after the fact. ^.^

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## yuppie11975

::hug::

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## DeeVee

As my biggest problem with lucid dreaming is that I wake only seconds later, this thread has been a great help. Thank you very much  :smiley:  .

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## whiterain

sorry if this has been covered in this great thread. lately i've been pretty good at stabilizing the dream so it continues, yet struggling to stay lucid for long periods in it. in the past i have tried using things like guides and tokens but i'd be interested to hear of any methods people use to constantly remind them they are dreaming. i think i will try using some really wacky visual aids like a bizzare animal guide or something that always floats in front of your face. or perhaps carrying it maybe a better idea? i guess the more senses you use the better so perhaps creating something that is appealing, offensive or just odd to all the senses could be the ultimate lucid aid.

just remembered some other things that have worked in the past have been floating or flying around very carefully so as not to lose focus . also using any weird transportation is great although you always have that trade off between excitement and focus. i wonder if anyone has tried using something like a lucid watermark in the corner of their dream 'screen' ?

also just want to remind people how useful it is to do some stabilizing/grounding techniques with your daily rc's. cheers mzzkc great guide

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## StephL

Hm - first of all - I like the idea of taking care of balancing your attention between your awakened cognition and the dream as such.
smile.gif

I had alltogether 3 lucid dreams as an adult (probable several when I was a kid) - the first was something special, since - based on silly preconceptions  - I tried to wake up as fast as I could   from it and with a vengeance - so it doesn´t count in a way - long other story..

The second was wonderful and really felt balanced in the sense you described it - that rings true, and it was going on for quite a long while.
While the third got lost with attempts at stabilization per hand-rubbing and spinning.
This seemed to be too centred on myself - the dream-scape just collapsed into nothing while I did that.

Now - I have two things, that are a bit unclear to me.
First off - I´m not sure, I understand, what you are describing with the following: 





> Those who practice lucid living and all day awareness are more likely to be familiar with *pouring attention into their surroundings*. In fact, it's likely these people do this automatically whilst lucid, making traditional stabilization almost unnecessary for them. Still, there are ways to *actively force focus on your surroundings*. Everyone's method will be different depending on their experience with attention shifting, but I'll explain my method below so you'll have something to work with, at the very least.



Okay - does this basically mean you pay attention to your surroundings or something else/more?
This aspect of pouring/forcing seems to be something different.
Do you mean to bring it to life by instilling this attention instead of just observing it and paying attention to the details?
Could you come up with an example of how you do this in more depth, please?





> I came up with this method in particular after reading a bit of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. The idea comes from the battle/meditation technique the main character is taught early on: *to create a flame in his mind's eye* and focus on it completely, deflecting all outside thoughts.



This sounds like something introspective - looking into yourself - not at the surroundings..?





> I start by taking in the world around me, but not just what I can see; *I use everything I can sense, making it my proverbial flame*, making it all important, pouring my focus into it so that everything around me is complete and free from my conscious thoughts. 
> 
> And just like that, the dream becomes stable, whilst I retain my lucidity. What's amazing is that this process doesn't take more than a moment and can be used at almost any time; I've lost count of the number of lucids this little trick has kept me from losing.



So - does this mean - hm - yeah - what does this mean?
If I were to try to interpret it - what I come up with is - try to perceive everything outside of yourself and take this perception inside your mind and set it aflame/alive inside of you?

Do you visualize a flame somewhere?
I´m afraid, I can not easily wrap my mind around it - but I sense there is something about it, I´d like to understand more clearly.



Right - that was the "important" part.
Now I wonder - I´m new to this site - but I have actually no idea what exactly it is, that you - personally, just that - see as misinformation, which is interspersed in the guides in here.
I have not read everything of course - but I am not aware to have read something that really goes against what you say.
And you yourself have not specified, with what exactly you have a problem - or I have missed this..?

Now - I am not too fond to kick off a new controversy - but I feel you have a grievance with certain points, and I´d like to know which ones exactly - no need to point to the perpetrators as such by name, I guess - just the content.
Knowing this would be your opinion of course - but I´m interested in it!

That would be great.
Especially of course the first part - if you could help me understand _you_ better!

In advance:

thank-you.gif

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## Mzzkc

Sorry. Late reply. Already doing tons of writing recently. Not much time for old threads; you understand.





> Now - I have two things, that are a bit unclear to me.
> First off - I´m not sure, I understand, what you are describing with the following: 
> 
> Okay - does this basically mean you pay attention to your surroundings or something else/more?
> This aspect of pouring/forcing seems to be something different.
> Do you mean to bring it to life by instilling this attention instead of just observing it and paying attention to the details?
> Could you come up with an example of how you do this in more depth, please?



Yes, what I describe there might be best practiced by simply paying greater attention to one's surroundings. That is certainly a good place to start. Though, when I originally authored this, I referred--here--to raw shifts in attention. Like I mentioned in the original post, attention manipulation at the lowest level is a difficult thing to functionally describe....I will try.

Think of your attention, your focus, as a sort of currency. Each person has a finite amount of that currency--their allotted budget. When you are dreaming, you may freely invest your budget into whatever stock strikes your fancy, be it an internal or external entity. The average person doesn't get too involved with this investment allocation, allowing tricks and techniques developed by other to decide their fate. But an expert is more likely to fine-tune their allocations in order to build a more diverse, stable, and profitable portfolio. This requires a more hands on investment approach which can't be mastered by simply reading about how others have done it.

Probably not too helpful, maybe someone else can explain it better?

On the language used:

Most people are more introspective, more wrapped up in their own thoughts, both IWL and in dreams. For these people, a conscious effort is required to focus on their surrounding and achieve a better "balance." Finally, for me, the word "pour" most closely describes the sensation of shifting your attention from primarily internal observation to primarily external observation. The sensation is hardly universal. I would not have used the same language, if I had written this today.





> This sounds like something introspective - looking into yourself - not at the surroundings..?
> 
> So - does this mean - hm - yeah - what does this mean?
> If I were to try to interpret it - what I come up with is - try to perceive everything outside of yourself and take this perception inside your mind and set it aflame/alive inside of you?
> 
> Do you visualize a flame somewhere?
> I´m afraid, I can not easily wrap my mind around it - but I sense there is something about it, I´d like to understand more clearly.



The surroundings are the flame, though not literally. Instead of placing all focus on the flame, like the character in the book, I place all my focus into the world around me. 

Using the investment analogy, this little trick achieves a rather extreme form of attention investment, i.e., it puts everything into the environment, leaving only the barest bit of attention tied internally. 







> Right - that was the "important" part.
> Now I wonder - I´m new to this site - but I have actually no idea what exactly it is, that you - personally, just that - see as misinformation, which is interspersed in the guides in here.
> I have not read everything of course - but I am not aware to have read something that really goes against what you say.
> And you yourself have not specified, with what exactly you have a problem - or I have missed this..?
> 
> Now - I am not too fond to kick off a new controversy - but I feel you have a grievance with certain points, and I´d like to know which ones exactly - no need to point to the perpetrators as such by name, I guess - just the content.
> Knowing this would be your opinion of course - but I´m interested in it!



Things are better today than they were nearly two years ago. Many of my grievances have since been addressed, though I cannot provide a complete list of what's left  without a significant time-sink, and I've already procrastinated on my nanowrimo novel long enough. XP

----------


## StephL

Oh - this is very helpful - thank you a lot!
I did indeed misunderstand you to an extent:





> Think of your attention, your focus, as a sort of currency. Each person has a finite amount of that currency--their allotted budget. When you are dreaming, *you may freely invest your budget* into whatever stock strikes your fancy, be it an internal or external entity. The average person doesn't get too involved with this investment allocation, *allowing tricks and techniques developed by other to decide their fate. But an expert is more likely to fine-tune their allocations in order to build a more diverse, stable, and profitable portfolio.* This requires a more hands on investment approach which can't be mastered by simply reading about how others have done it.



Attention as a currency, where you decide freely, how to spread out your allotted budget makes a lot of sense to me.
Especially with the background of having gone to the effort of analysing some of the "Why Is It So Hard To Get To The Moon" thread, where so many people have invested so much mental energy - also creativity - to build themselves bridges, which ultimately are not needed or even conductive to what they wanted to achieve.
This was interesting to see.
I hope, coming a bit forward in my all too basic personal issues - namely getting there repeatedly in the first place - I will be keeping in mind this complete freedom and invest, where I want to and not where I think I have to, in order to x,y or z.


I was even more of a newbie than I am now, and didn´t take the timeline into account with the last aspect of my question.
It is anyway good to hear you confirm, what my overall impression was - namely that there is nothing glaringly misinforming in my eyes out there in the many guides, which this site puts forth under educational and guidelines for beginners.


Okay - I can fully relate to the "pouring" and "forcing upon" - I just was confused about what the flame exactly stands for, and suspected I might miss out on something there.

It is probably interesting in a way, to see how you worded these things years ago - well - even if not - I wish you to enjoy your writing and that you reach the audience, that you are having in mind for it and they enjoying it too!

smile.gif

----------


## StephL

I have re-read the OP again - and I got quite excited by an idea.
You say - balance between the dream, and the awareness that you are dreaming.
The one most realistic and absolutely fully clear lucid experience  - all senses - acutely aware of all around me in the dream - was coming about by me pondering this very fact deeply. The first one years back.

I knew in that moment actively - that the contact to my body was severed - that all I had in that moment was the dreamscape - with that intellectual realization came the extreme stability of that dream - I had a really hard time to wake myself from it too.

I feel, maybe that awareness of my body lying in my bed meanwhile, was what made it so real?
Normally nobody tries to think about their body - but maybe it is a good idea.
So that there is a 100% realization - so to speak.

Did I get you right there - or what do you think?
I felt like suddenly understanding, why this first one was so special in that regard when I re-read.
But I have not put it to the test (yet..).

Of course I do not plan on concentrating on feeling my real body in some way - but intellectually "knowing to the fullest" that it is a dream.

----------


## LouaiB

> I have re-read the OP again - and I got quite excited by an idea.
> You say - balance between the dream, and the awareness that you are dreaming.
> The one most realistic and absolutely fully clear lucid experience  - all senses - acutely aware of all around me in the dream - was coming about by me pondering this very fact deeply. The first one years back.
> 
> I knew in that moment actively - that the contact to my body was severed - that all I had in that moment was the dreamscape - with that intellectual realization came the extreme stability of that dream - I had a really hard time to wake myself from it too.
> 
> I feel, maybe that awareness of my body lying in my bed meanwhile, was what made it so real?
> Normally nobody tries to think about their body - but maybe it is a good idea.
> So that there is a 100% realization - so to speak.
> ...



Ah, self-awareness. It does make the dream more stable and the experience richer(more dream control!!)

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## N8thegr8

What an interesting topic, friend just a thought doesnt it seem weird when your not lucid dreaming the dream  once you recal it seems stabile as in the surronding and actions taking place but lucid dreams require more work  :tongue2:

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## StephL

I have made a nice discovery! Maybe I have caused my problems myself with expecting, what used to happen the ten last times or so: I become lucid and within seconds I loose my optics. But now the latest one went differently - normally I would have been mightily frustrated again, and woken myself up in the belief, my LD would have "crashed".
After reading advice from fogelbise and Ophelia - I just relaxed and accepted to be blind, and kept on dreaming in total darkness for a while.
Just walking about and talking - and tadaaa - optics reluctantly returned and got so lifelike, that I had my fingers on my nose in order to keep believing it not long afterwards.
What would have been a micro-LD, unworthy of counting again, transformed into a properly count-worthy affair - and even with TOTM! 
I so much love them wiiinkx!
This does me so good! I was extremely lazy lately, not seeing the sense of all the action only for getting another frustrating and out-blackening glimpse.

But now ..goodsigh2.gif


I believe this is pretty viable generally. Reading about people's efforts on here, I get the impression, that I am not alone, suffering from "stabilization-hectic", people running about headlessly, trying to achieve, what is recommended. Interestingly these problems didn't occur ten and twenty years ago, respectively, when I dabbled a bit in LDing - before signing up here and taking it back up last autumn.
So - I would say - steel yourself against expecting problems, just because others have had them, for once.
And secondly - don't rush about in a panic, trying to get all senses on board, and upon "failing something" loosing faith and waking yourself up.
An LD can go on for more than 10 min. after doing something, which could be misinterpreted as "crashing" - even total blindness for a minute or more.
Relax and accept your condition - you have time to work on it, if you don't fret and panic and give up!

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## AndresLD

That's awesome Steph! I haven't been lucid dreaming in a long time, and I think the main thing that discouraged me was the consistency of crashing LD's as soon as I became lucid. I will keep you experience in mind next time I find my self lucid dreaming  :smiley:

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## fogelbise

Thank you Steph! It really made me feel good to read that nice comment above and feel like I can still help in some way from time to time!  :smiley:

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## FryingMan

Sensei made a really important point, that once he stopped being concerned about dreams ending too soon (because he got getter at DEILD, etc.), he found that they lasted longer!     Expectation is everything....

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## Mzzkc

FryingMan: Expectation is not everything. "Expectation" is a rather ambiguous catch-all thrown around all too frequently. It's an attempt to explain (poorly) the deeper, subtly complex processes that govern dream formation and thus dream control. There have been many, many proof-by-counter-example arguments presented on these forums--by highly reputable sources--all of which have definitively shown, time and again, that the expectation myth is bogus at best and a harmful superstition at worst.

Steph: It seems you've stumbled back upon a wonderful little thing called confidence, and I'm glad you brought it up! ^.^

As a brief thought experiment, I want you to think about all the folks you know who excel at dream control. As many as you want, even just a couple are fine. Think about their personalities, the way they write, present themselves, their similarities... I'd be willing to bet that most, if not all of them, have one trait in common. Whether you call it confidence, arrogance, assertiveness--whatever--these people have it.

To all, I propose a question for your consideration: why are these traits so beneficial? (hint: it's not expectation)


Bonus points if you can point out which authors I've been reading lately. XP

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## FryingMan

Well for one thing they seem to be rather (overly?) self-assured.    What is confidence other than the expectation that whatever you do will work / is right?

Mzzkc, I eagerly await the links to these threads that debunk the "myth."   

So, how to you then break a dream "habit" (so as not to use the nasty "E" word)?    How do you stop now and for ever, that doing "X" in a dream always results in premature waking, even when you don't consciously think that it will in the dream?

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## Sageous

> Mzzkc, I eagerly await the links to these threads that debunk the "myth."



As do I, Mzzkc.

Expectation/intention, by whatever name*** you attach to it, is a critical aspect of successful LD'ing, and is certainly important in dream control.  It obviously isn't _everything,_ and from my perspective comes in a distant third behind self-awareness and memory, respectively, and likely is even less important in dream control than, say, a steady calm, but that does not mean it is not important (though expectation may have a hand in that steady calm).  Expectation/intention is instrumental in setting your focus, getting your entire mind on the same playing field in preparation for lucid dreaming, and this preparation will follow you into the dream, directly affecting control.  I know it should not be elevated to too much prominence, but it is not a good idea to sell something as fundamental as expectation/intention short.  

For me, successful dream control is a byproduct of successful application of the fundamentals -- if you have developed a strong sense of self-awareness, can access your memory, and have developed solid expectations/intentions, you will likely have little trouble controlling your dream when the time comes. 

I also have seen very little evidence of this term being "thrown around" these forums.  If anything, it is spoken of far too rarely (as are self-awareness and memory), eclipsed regularly by more exciting -- and far less important --  things like techniques, supplements, or devices that promise shortcuts through the necessary work -- like developing strong expectation/intentions.  Nor have I seen the term used as a catch-all; indeed, expectation/intention is fairly tight term that pretty much means what it says, and would be a very bad catch-all.  Could you cite a couple of cases of where it is a catch-all?

I don't mean to be argumentative here -- this is your thread, after all -- but for a member of your caliber and knowledge to be dismissing expectation/intention as unimportant seems odd.

All apologies, BTW, if this contradicts your tutorial; I haven't read it in years, but I believe -- or at least I had thought -- that, though your direct terms might be slightly different than mine, we are talking about the same thing.  I just felt a need to come to the defense of one of the fundamentals; normally I wouldn't have, but your opinion holds a lot of sway on DV, so a little bitchin' seemed appropriate...


***Aren't you simply renaming the basic substance of expectation/intention when you use words like "confidence, arrogance, assertiveness--whatever--" to replace it?  Aren't confidence, assertiveness, arrogance, etc merely _drivers_ of expectation/intention?

[EDIT:  I just read through this ramble and decided it needed a *tl;dr:* I personally think expectation/intention is fundamental to successful LD'ing (including control), though certainly not _everything_, and I also think that "confidence, arrogance, assertiveness--whatever--"  are terms that merely rephrase, or perhaps are couched in, expectation/intention. Perhaps dismissing it as an overused, unimportant term was a bit much?  If not, then why?]

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## StephL

thank-you.gifAndres and fogelbise!!

And first of all thanks to you Mzzkc, too!

But please explain a bit more - what did you read - how do you mean it, and which term(s) would you use instead?
To say expectation is everything is going too far, but I can't quite understand your objections as well.
In my perception, it is indeed thrown around often, and can be quite an empty thing, if you don't know, how.

Without confidence in the possibility, it is not exactly easy to expect something "properly".
It's a bit like trying to believe in something, which goes against your knowledge, in the hope of thereby gaining an advantage.
Once you know something, you can not consciously un-know it. You can only change your mind upon new evidence or finding flaws in your thinking about the old.
Expectations based on experience are a bit easier to transform - experience is not exactly knowledge and expectation is not really belief - but I hope, it's understandable, what I want to convey with this analogy.
And then there is intention-setting - what do you think on that term?

I was indeed expecting, that a "flawed state" like blindness could be dreamt through that time, because I read about others having managed that, and believed it possible. So I set the intention of remaining un-flustered and going on dreaming blindly, if it comes to it again.
And now - having done it - I have much more confidence.

When I first used "pretend-remembering" a la Sensei - I had one of the most impressive (for me) successes with summoning.
I did, rather haphazardly, try to convince myself, that I _remember_, that behind that door was a complete darting room with all and everything needed. I imagined having been there "before".
I opened the door, and was actually quite surprised to really find the room I had visualized behind it.
So - does that surprise mean, I did not really expect it?
Could calling it pretend-remembering be over-thinking it - better just do visualization and call it such as well?

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## Mzzkc

First, a handful of posts from a 30 minutes search session which do a decent job of properly framing the whole expectation myth. Obviously, there are more out there, but if you're really interested I recommend you boot up the googles and give searching a go... In the mean time, I have prepared the following for your consumption.

My own slighted dated explanation, but still relatively valid: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...ml#post1537963
Pair that with a lovely neural networking model by sisyphus: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...ml#post2073542
Add in a simple counter-example by one of the most gifted lucid dreamers to ever walk the earth: http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ml#post1884128
Sprinkle it all with the reasoning behind my apparent angst: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...ml#post1171112
Dollop on some alternative models: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...m-control.html
And mix it all together in one big pot: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...m-control.html

It's a bit of a read, so I'll quickly address some other points...

A brief explanation for Sageous: expectation occurs at the cross between memory and focus, but is itself an un-honed tool. It's far too often proclaimed as the "golden hammer" which can solve all problems, which leads to threads that take the following form... [ OP: "I had trouble doing this thing that I definitely expected to happen. What gives?" First responder: "You probably just needed to expect harder and believe more!" OP: "Uh. Thanks...I guess." ]

On confidence/arrogance: people who exhibit confidence or arrogance are skilled at shaping their own belief system without it being unduly influenced by others. Outside of dreams, this provides such people a resiliency against common misconceptions, especially when they have evidence that contradicts such notions. Within the dream itself, these personality traits provide an unrivaled focus which squashes any doubts (which may or may not reside in memory) and allows for purer, stronger control over the formation of the dream. Talking about people with confidence/arrogance is not an attempt to change terminology. 

On weird terminology: The seemingly new terms I brought up are simply personality traits that shape the way such people interact with the world, and thus their dreams. Additionally, as far as I'm concerned, the terms expectation and belief may as well be synonymous in the context of lucid dreaming. I do not propose they be called anything else.

I know I didn't hit every point directly, but hopefully that should be enough for awhile? Lol, who am I kidding...

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## Sageous

First, thanks for all the links; I'm familiar with most of them already, and it was nice to revisit them... not sure they made your point for you, though!

But that doesn't matter, because I think you might be making mountains from molehills here, Mzzkc.  Aside from FryingMan's albeit hyperbolic statement above ("expectation is everything"), with which I've already said I do not agree, and the occasional suggestion of changing expectation to solve a problem, a practice with which I don't generally agree either, I'm not seeing this "expectation myth" you want to quash.  I personally have never considered expectation a "golden hammer." Though it may perhaps get a bit too much credit on occasion (ahead of self-awareness and memory), in my time here at DV I haven't noticed a general attitude that expectation is a cure-all.  Could you possibly be overreacting?

And agreed; expectation is certainly an un-honed tool. In a sense, it is not a tool at all, but a result of the use of other tools... expectation is not a specific thing you wield, but a helpful side-effect from the wielding of other tools.

Regarding arrogance:  Arrogance is not a good trait in LD'ing (or life in general), because it allows you to mask the truth or your own errors with a false sense of superiority or righteousness.  I do not understand why you think a personality trait that allows you to lie to yourself is at all helpful.  Indeed, I've seen many an arrogant LD'er (myself included, once) suffer diminished dream control because his solution for exercising control in a dream amounted to screaming something like "This is MY dream, and I demand that everything happen MY way!" and then being confused or angry because the dream didn't cooperate. 

But you know what?  This is your thread, and your opinion should really hold sway here.  So I guess you needn't respond, and I will also choose not to continue an argument.  I just wanted to make those quick points, though...

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## StephL

Well, well, well - I am unconvinced - or rather none the wiser - and won't change my use of terminology.
And I'm quite surprised, that you treat expectation as a core concept as well - you just recommend to utilize focus:





> I'm going to try to put it simply: *Dream control is achieved through the manipulation of expectation via shifts in attention.*
> 
> Yes, expectation is key, but that expectation, no matter how absolute, is worthless without the proper focus.



This is the - also fattened in the original - punchline of your linked up Unified-Theory-Thread, isn't it?
Besides - I find the term archetype not fortunate - schema is pre-loaded enough in English for my taste - isn't "motive" or "theme" enough?

Basically you talk about what I call the classical crutches - like using the fact, that you saw something similar to what you want to accomplish, performed in fiction or games, and then model your dream-control action on it - like shooting fire-balls from your hands. You have something to visualize and pretend-convince yourself of being able to do in the same way. I would also use "Schema" in German, but it's a word free from any psychoanalytic connotations in it's original meaning.
My air-swimming belongs in that category as well - but to call it archetypical manipulation goes somewhat over the top in my perception. 
In combination with dreaming especially these terms are way too ideologically loaded for my comfort.
I would say it's make believe - pretending - using a motive/schema from another context - transposing it.
I pretend, that air behaves like water and then I do, what I know to work in water - voilà - I fly.

Meanwhile I have experimented with other flying techniques - more elegant stuff - it works, but good old swimming never fails me.
It's properly internalized - been using it in my childhood LDs.

But these manoeuvres are crutches in my view, until one is able - with enough experience and crystal clear lucidity - to *just do it*.
Without any pretend-reasoning or transposition of motives - just knowing that you can do anything and do it. Period. As  :sageous:  might add.
No?

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## Mzzkc

Sageous: The author of the _post_ (not the thread) I linked to, Hukif (formerly Walms), was to whom I referred. The dude pumps out an average 13 LDs on a _bad_ night, has crafted an entire alternate, persistent universe complete with self-imposed rules (like perma-death for instance), and that's just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. The myth still persists, I implore you to be looking out for it as you browse through each section. Admittedly, the core of active users around here is much more informed than previous generations, so this may be less of an issue now than it was in the past. That said, I couldn't leave FryingMan's assertion be, as I see the effects of such ideas harmful in a similar sense as misunderstandings regarding sleep paralysis. Believing expectation to be all there is to dream control is absolutely limiting factor, and I'd like to see everyone reach their full potential.

Hitting your point on arrogance briefly: convincingly lying to one's self is an invaluable tool with applications well beyond dreaming. So long as your are capable of tempering your arrogance, such an ability allows you direct and total control over your own beliefs, attitudes, and schema... Speaking from a personal standpoint, it's essential when performing a number of more complex techniques which shortcut the traditional association-building process. As an example, forcing an associating between lucid dreams and any given goal...like stabilization, for instance...is a great memory shortcut which will allow you to easily recall pretty much anything you'd like within a lucid dream, no matter the state of your recall levels upon becoming lucid.

Also, this is just a thread. I know "proper etiquette" is to leave the educational threads of others alone, but discussion and debate are always a good learning tool (for all involved) when performed respectfully, which I trust all participants here to do. =)

Steph: Use whatever terminology you'd like, I don't think I've tried to make any efforts to change any terminology. On the contrary, I've stated that I currently have no interest in doing so (where dream control is concerned). As far as the crutches you've mentioned and everything else I've described go, they've enabled me to consistently take total control of dream at will ala: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...ll-things.html

Thus, I am of the opinion that crutches, as you call them, are way more versatile than one might first assume. Obviously, it takes a bit of creativity to turn a crutch, or a number of crutches, into something much grander, like time-dilation. But after a short while such manipulation becomes a simple, intuitive task (much like riding a bicycle) capable of overcoming all conceivable limitations.

But hey, what do I know? =P

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## FryingMan

Yeah, what a mountain arose over a little statement, not meant to be taken literally.   Maybe you'd prefer to see "expectation is really important," which is what I really meant.      In particular, negative expectation can kill LDs.  Positive expectation is very important but negative must be avoided at all costs.

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## Mzzkc

> Yeah, what a mountain arose over a little statement



I am nothing, if not thorough. XP

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## Sageous

> Sageous: The author of the _post_ (not the thread) I linked to, Hukif (formerly Walms), was to whom I referred...



 Yeah, I figured that out about an hour later and edited my post to reflect that I understood who you meant, and had no argument about Hukif... however, even his quote did little more than confirm that sometimes expectations don't work, especially when you do the expecting consciously;  a statement with which I fully agree, BTW.





> Hitting your point on arrogance briefly: convincingly lying to one's self is an invaluable tool with applications well beyond dreaming. So long as your are capable of tempering your arrogance, such an ability allows you direct and total control over your own beliefs, attitudes, and schema...



Now _that_ is a statement! 

I'm of a mind that lying to yourself -- and holding yourself above others -- is _never_ a constructive thing to do, no matter how well you've convinced yourself that it is.  Arrogance is not, I think, an attitude that _can_ be tempered, because once you temper it, you are no longer arrogant.  

For what it's worth, I have personally found that curbing arrogance altogether, or at least _trying_ to do so, has been one of the things that has helped me most profoundly in LD'ing and waking life.  Complete honesty with your self during a dream actually aids the building of schema because there is no doubt about the nature of where you are and who you are.  Also anecdotally, I have little to no trouble with stabilization without forcing associations, and yet I can find case after case of past LD's that collapsed due to my attempts to force things (due to arrogance) -- indeed, I really don't give stabilization or control a thought anymore, thanks to strong self-awareness in my LD's, mixed of course with memory and your other ingredients of focus and attention.  Conversely, I can also say that my false lucids -- NLD's _about_ being lucid -- were invariably couched in some sort of arrogance or assurance that I had to be lucid because I said so (all without a wit of self-awareness or memory). 

Also, you attached confidence to arrogance, but that makes no sense either, because you can be fully confident without lying to yourself or holding yourself above others... indeed, confidence comes from honest knowledge, wisdom, and experience, and not from telling yourself you have those things.  I'm not sure it was a good idea to conflate the two conditions.

I think, based on my personal experience and knowledge of the art, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you about the value of arrogance; but then you'll just tell yourself that doesn't matter, right (kidding!)? You may have had some success with arrogance personally, Mzzkc, but could that just be you? Is it really a good idea to tell your students to be assholes?  :sageous:

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## Mzzkc

I really don't think anyone should follow my example or do the stuff I do, the way I do it. I provide information and insights I've come across, maybe draw a few conclusions, but through and through (save for a few notable experiments/examples) I've always encouraged self discovery and personal research. If someone wants to become an arrogant jerk-face in the pursuit of better dream control, I think they should be allowed to follow that path. And if they find it's not for them, as you say, overcoming one's arrogance is a great way to improve too! =)

Personally, I value confidence much higher than arrogance, but they're both two sides of the same coin in terms of shaping a solid mental framework. Where confidence bends to compensate the breeze, arrogance is shaped so the breeze passes through it. Yeah, arrogance might have a few holes, and it's surely not as pretty to look at, but it'll hold up just fine methinks. =P

Edit: As a side note, the "forcing" in the technique I mentioned occurs when you are awake. In this way, no effort is required during the dream itself, as you've already set triggers for yourself before falling asleep. It's like setting up a cron job or a reminder on your smart phone, except using basic functions of thought instead of circuits and sofftware.

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## StephL

I'm also yet to come to grips with the lying to yourself aspect of it all - I certainly use it for dream-control, but I keep thinking, there might be a way to re-conceptualize it.

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## Mzzkc

Just think of it as acting, if that helps.

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## The Cusp

Or the temporary disbelief required to enjoy a work of fiction. 

Expectation sucks.

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## StephL

These are nice tips - thank you!
I esp. like the actor thing - sounds like a great crutch to try out!
You know all is there, that is needed for the scene, since you are the actor and you are "on" - I like it!

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## Mzzkc

See everyone, some good _can_ come from my occasional tirades. =P

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## Mzzkc

Not to beat a dead horse or anything, but this thread has a fun conversation on the topic (between The Cusp and a newby). Figured anyone who followed the most recent conversation might want to give it a looksie.

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## FryingMan

> Everyone is always in complete control of their dreams. I've always maintained this. The trick is to realize it, and observe how it works. The dream responds to your focused attention, and if you want to call the focus of that attention an expectation, then that is essentially correct.



Yes, as I "expected" (haha), it's basically a matter of semantics.   "Focused attention," "expectation," "tomay-to", "tomah-to".

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## StephL

You know what, The Cusp?
I think I just started out thinking in archetypal form as well:

http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ml#post2106905

Well - I'd rather say, I changed my conception of archetypal, semantically and how finegrainedly one can view it.

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## Ctharlhie

> Yes, as I "expected" (haha), it's basically a matter of semantics.   "Focused attention," "expectation," "tomay-to", "tomah-to".



I never cease to be amazed by the way people dismiss semantics as trivial compared to some posited truth 'beyond words'. * The differance between 'attention' and 'expectation' is crucial in dreaming, which is so much mediated by our schemata.

*not a personal attack on you! FryingMan

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## StephL

> I never cease to be amazed by the way people dismiss semantics as trivial compared to some posited truth 'beyond words'. * The differance between 'attention' and 'expectation' is crucial in dreaming, which is so much mediated by our schemata.
> 
> *not a personal attack on you! FryingMan



I actually completely agree with you,  Ctharlhie. So sorry Fryingman for now un-liking your post - but I felt like doing that to be consistent.  ::wink::

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## Sageous

^^ Yes, Chtharlhie was, as he is so often, spot-on correct...





> I never cease to be amazed by the way people dismiss semantics as trivial compared to some posited truth 'beyond words'. * The difference between 'attention' and 'expectation' is crucial in dreaming, which is so much mediated by our schemata.



... meaning is critical, especially in terms that are practically archetypical in the practice of lucid dreaming, and truly singular in their own meanings.

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## FryingMan

I don't think you properly understood my comment, maybe I was too brief.

What is crucial is the mindset behind the words.   The label that is applied is just that, a label, and yes, the label is not important.   The "feeling" and process of how your mind operates is what is important.   I believe the exchange above in the quote I included shows that the label applied to the  mental operation is of basically no importance, while the operation itself is what is important.

You can't say that there is a difference between "expectation" and "attention" without first painstakingly defining the mental mindset behind them, and as TheCusp showed, if the mental operation behind one person's label of "expectation" matches the mental operation HE attaches to "focused attention" then they are in fact one and the same thing.

So, yes, "just semantics" means that the label doesn't matter, it's what BEHIND the label that matters.

edit: and let me add that yes, terms ("semantics") *are* important, for without them holding a conversation is all but impossible.   But that's very difficult, isn't it, for strictly personal internal experiences, using terms that are already (over?) used.      People can get together and point at a "cat" and agree on this term for the thing (dare I say, archetypal schema?  :smiley: ) called "cat", but how do we get beyond this hurdle for dreaming experiences?   It's al but impossible to even be able to agree on a vocabulary that matches a mode of mental operation.

So the discussion shouldn't run "no you're wrong, expectation is crap, etc.", it should go: "Just what exactly do you mean by "expectation"?") (which, by the way, I do wish someone would go to the effort of defining the mental models behind just what this term means to them).

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## Mzzkc

> It's al but impossible to even be able to agree on a vocabulary that matches a mode of mental operation.



Challenge accepted.

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## toloupe

Im not yet able to lucid dream, but Im wondering if you feel like the environment in your dream is something you have created or if there are contingencies that present themselves.? I liked the eating wood comment. I dreamt that once.

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## Mzzkc

Like I've outlined here and elsewhere, dreams form in a very specific way. I've yet to encounter an exception to these hardwired rules, and would be genuinely surprised if someone could provide a valid and compelling counterexample.

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## N8thegr8

Friend, wonder guide! But I fear only half the battle is won. Now it's time for application of your methods and words so that stabilization can become like breathing. You have my thanks!!! Hablamos mad tarde mi fantastico amigo!

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