# Sleep and Dreams > Beyond Dreaming >  >  Why it's hard to get to the Moon

## Baron Samedi

Wormholes

Wormholes are tunnels, warp holes in the fabric of space and time, with a "2D" portal on each end.





Whenever you do instant traveling you go through a wormhole (and possibly when you teleport, but not sure.)

*The War of the Wyrms*

Eons ago, the god of This World, Nevergawn, The Puppetmaster of Puppetmasters, The One Who Loves Control, decided he would take control over all the wormholes leaving This World, Urth. His archenemy, the One Who Loves Freedom, Gawn had, in the mind of Nevergawn, abandoned Urth to create a Dream Warrior Planet. 

Nevergawn believed if he could control the wormholes, he could keep dreamers from leaving Urth, thus keeping them here and stealing their energy, and keeping them ignorant of other worlds.

Each wormhole was guarded by a great Wyrm, a cold drake, fierce and powerful with skin like a man, and eyes burning with a dark fire. Nevergawn and his army of demons declared war on the Wormhole Wyrms. The demons killed the wyrms over and over, but being immortal, the wyrms always came back to life.  Finally, the demons ripped the Wyrms into tiny pieces to delay them from reforming. 

The Wyrms will eventually put themselves back together, but it will take eons. 

Other entities may enter the wormholes and heal the Wyrms, thus healing the wormholes, but most dreamers of Urth don't even perceive wormholes as they fly through them, just as they do not perceive the darkness of their blinks.  When a Wyrm reforms, he will attack the parasites, and create an ecosystem in the wormhole, which keeps it free of parasites.

The wormholes are infested with all manner of energy parasites which stick to a dreamer's dream body, and sap their energy.  Oftentimes, a dreamer won't make it through a wormhole, because energy parasites sap all their strength before they make it through.  But, you don't perceive it, just as you would not perceive yourself only blinking halfway.

Don't take my word for it.

Try these tasks:

1) Get to the Moon. 

(It's a Task of the Year, but very few have done it.)

2) Perceive a wormhole.

(Hard to do because you go through them so quickly.)

Advanced:

1) Go to Mars.

2) Explore a wormhole.

You will find these are very hard to do. For someone like Walms, it is not hard to do, because he automatically battles anything that attacks him in a wormhole, even if he doesn't remember.  

In a shared dream that he does not remember, but Raven and I do very well, he and I battled one-on-one. I lost 0-5. He is very good at dream battling. People who do a lot of dream battling will find it easier to travel to the moon.

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## The Cusp

Where do you get this stuff?

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## spockman

Don't get me wrong, Waking Nomad, it is all very interesting to read. But I am going to be blunt here and say that is sounds like the works of a fantasy/science fiction author or else of a bizarre religion. I second Cusps motion for you to tell us why you believe that this is true.

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## Trickster

I thought guides could get you clear past into the worm holes when they take you in & through it?
I know I just wouldn't step into one, without following some kind of guide.

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## mowglycdb

> Don't get me wrong, Waking Nomad, it is all very interesting to read. But I am going to be blunt here and say that is sounds like the works of a fantasy/science fiction author or else of a bizarre religion. I second Cusps motion for you to tell us why you believe that this is true.



Only self experience, extracted from his own dreams, this is true in the form he percieves it and it may be some what close to what it really is, but everyone that is not "him" will have to adapt it to their own beliefs or extract a little portion of it.

Nomad is right about that wormholes are sentient I just didn't come up with a thought like that. I wonder what I could do with them, but my recall isn't that good xp.

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## The Cusp

> Only self experience, extracted from his own dreams, this is true in the form he percieves it and it may be some what close to what it really is, but everyone that is not "him" will have to adapt it to their own beliefs or extract a little portion of it.



You can't be wrong about what you experience, you can only be wrong about the conclusions you draw from those experiences.  When you just present your conclusions without relating the experiences they were based on, it doesn't do anyone any good.

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## juroara

When I created a portal to go to the  moon, a small portal flew down from the sky and I entered it. It was only after waking up from the worst nightmare of my life, did I realize that first portal looked just like a CC scout. A white small orb.

But just before I flew into the portal/scout - I saw another portal behind it, much larger, one that actually looked like a wormhole or vortex. I think my dream would have been much nicer had I gone through that one.

When it comes to portals and wormholes, my warning is, do you know what it is you're entering? Do you know about CC scouts? Do you know the telltale signs of what they look like, what they do?

Stick to teleporting, or using other dream techniques to teleport, such as a door

PS. I don't think anyone should take anything in their dreams as the literal objective truth, Nomad. And who ever these gods are that you've met, they first and foremost represent you.

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## Man of Shred

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is pure energy condensed to a slow vibration, That we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such as death, life is only a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves..." - Bill Hicks.

 "I told Nomad that I was just a projection of Carlos Castaneda's waking dream and drug trips, and yet I am real! What makes you think that your fellow men aren't merely the same thing?" Don Juan from my dream last night.

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## spockman

I do not get at all why you would need to use wormholes in dreamspace. If it is a teleportation thing, and you would need wormholes to teleport, perhaps this could have some validity in reality. But I can use a raygun as my weapon of choice in the dreamscape. Rayguns in real life- they would use up alot of energy. Do I have to find an in dream energy crystal and fight the parasites living off of the crystals to get it? I doubt it. I am not being sarcastic and not trying to be belligerent at all, man, I am just opposing the concept that we would need to travel through astral wormholes to get to a place not constructed in the material world but constructed purely by the mind, (even the minds of many people combined.)

Even if, let's say, the shared dreaming plane has it's own laws regarding space, and space is not just relative like it is in a normal dream, screw it, I won't teleport to the moon. I will just fly there. Problem solved.

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## Baron Samedi

_ I got the info from dreams._  From dreams! 

Please don't take my word for it. Do the research yourself.

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## spockman

> _ I got the info from dreams._  From dreams! 
> 
> Please don't take my word for it. Do the research yourself.



Oh, okay, well, that's fine for you. Of course I cannot believe it without something objective or else personal experience and it seems you don't expect me to. I still wonder how your logic works concerning why we need wormholes to travel in dreams.

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## Und3rP4rr

I too, have experienced trouble going to the moon.  Once I even lucid dreamed  of trying to get to the moon, and I ended up on a falling platform. Then I tried to get there again, and I was on the moon, but there was no biodome and such.  But I did percieve Waking Nomad.  I don't think it was the "real" dream moon though.

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## Snowboy

I tried to get to the moon, but it took forever to get outside. When I got outside I was already waking up, so I couldn't quite get there. I didn't see the moon, either.

I have two questions I hope you will answer. First off, you said IN NEVERGAWN'S MIND that Gawn had gone to create a Dream Warrior Planet. So what did he do that Nevergawn didn't know about?

Second, how do you put together the Wyrms again? Where are the pieces?

I'm trying to get to the moon right now, having a hard time with it though because I always forget to remember my dream goals (?). I got to Mars once, but I was barely lucid and couldn't think clearly. Must be the fuckin energy parasites that caused it.  :Mad:  Of course, that is under the assumption that all of this is true.

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## Baron Samedi

@spockman: Of course you cannot believe something without personal experience or something objective. Dreams are 100% subjective. My dreams are based on my perception. This is exactly why I ask you to do the research yourself, so you can have the personal experience.

@underpar: there is no one "real" dream moon.  They are all real.

@Snowboy: Nevergawn thought that Gawn had abandoned Urth when he left. What Nevergawn did not realize was that Gawn was building an army of Dream Warriors.

You put the Wyrms back together with healing. The pieces are floating around in wormholes.

That is awesome that you went to Mars in a dream! That is my second favorite celestial body to hang out at in dreams. Usually I am just fighting there, or fighting from there.

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## Ferret

Can you elaborate on Gawn and his dream warriors. Are they people like us or are they created in the dream plane?

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## Ametam

getting to the moon was harder then expected.......
I had a lucid on saturday night, and after flying around abit i decided to take up your challange of getting to the moon, i looked up at the sky and saw the moon, i started flying towards it, but it changed into a billbord just off the road, i found another moon in the sky but it also changed. damm things.......

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## Baron Samedi

@ Ferret. Gawn has a very long history that goes beyond recorded time. The Dream Warriors are people from many different dimensions and worlds. We band together to battle enemies who seek to control others. 

@AustralianFire AWESOME!!! 

I must tell you, I have not seen a single DJ entry of anyone flying to the moon. They always teleport, open a portal or door, or go in a spaceship.

Flying is the hardest way.

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## Snowboy

> Flying is the hardest way.



I learned that the hard way...

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## juroara

> I will just fly there. Problem solved.



I'll believe it when you do it, lol. I agree with the above posters. Flying to the moon is pretty damn hard.

I spent three nights in a row focusing on flying to the moon. On the third night I got so close. The dream moon was full, and I was flying fast towards it. _Without asking, or without wanting,_ a vortex encloses in on me. Now that I was inside a swirling vortex, I wasn't flying to the moon, I was zooming towards it at a really incredible speed! 

The vortex and the g-forces took me by surprise, and I ended up plopping right out of the vortex, falling to the ground where I started.

Even in the dream I asked myself why did a vortex suddenly appear when I tried to fly to the moon? The only answer that I could think of is because I KNOW SUBCONSCIOUSLY that logically flying to the moon actually takes months. The moon, she's not just right up there. She's 200,000 miles away. (the Earth's equator by comparison is only like 25,000)

Usually distance isn't an issue in dreams. So I don't know why the moons distance would be an issue in dreams, but it just seems to be! Maybe the stories of astronauts living in closed quarters for months is imprinted in our memories, making flying to the moon subconsciously impractical. Although, another argument would be that flying out of the earth's atmosphere is hard in dreams. I don't know why, but it does seem to be true. Most fliers get stuck in the upper atmosphere, and most have needed a spaceship of some kind to get past the atmosphere issue. Well which ever it is....

The vortex that surrounded me was there to speed things up - so yeah - technically it was a wormhole.

Wormholes aren't necessary to get the moon though. Any teleportation technique should work.

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## spockman

I will simply change my expectations. Yes, in a vivid real world environment flying to the moon at anything less than a ridiculous speed would take months. BUT if I change my dream world into an anime, or a video game, or any other type of world where my preconcieved expectations are not grounded in the laws of physics, I should be able to fly at nearly the speed of light on my own ability. Or else the moon will just appear faster since games and anime always speed things up. This technique has worked for me in the past. When I get to to the moon I just change it back. No need to teleport through a wormhole or fly through one.

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## Alsroge

I would like to pose knowledge and creativity as the answer. I come into this discussion never having been to the moon, so I can't say that your words aren't true about it being much harder than expected, but the answers seems pretty clear to me. The atmosphere/space are one of the most misunderstood subjects to almost _everybody_. I hardly bet anybody could tell me the layers of the atmosphere or what REALLY to expect after leaving each one and entering space. Distance isn't usually an issue in dreams, so it shouldn't be with the moon. With knowledge comes power, though; I believe the problem with flying to the moon is that one gets so confused when they get to the atmosphere/space. Few people will be able to manage this completely foreign territory, and his or her attention might be stuck on it, causing some problems for the subconscious with getting 'stuck' there. I would suggest a moon-flying-hopeful to prepare beforehand by learning a bit about the atmosphere.

1. Read about atmosphere, space, moon to get understanding, and plan how you are going to fly to the moon.
2. Begin lucidity, put on your extra awesome moon shoes ( the ones that have the super rocket boosters that turn into moon springs to help you bounce.  :wink2:  hehe ). 
3. Fly to the moon. Encounter obstacles that are easy to overcome. You should have the moon in sight on your flight. It should start out small, but don't lose track of it from your vision. In order to speed there, I would activate your moon shoes (rocket boosters GO!), and keep the moon's quickly expanding front in the direction you're headed. Seeing the moon start to widen is the equivalent of getting closer (duh). I would add a motion blur to the space around to make myself believe I'm speeding much more, also. 
4. Arrive at moon. Bounce to heart's desire/put something there/etc.

That's how I would take care of it. Teleporting is obviously easier, but I would want to try flying there one day. That would be fun. As spockman said though, changing expectations and reality are essentially what I'm proposing also.  :tongue2:

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## saltyseedog

I went through a portal and it was like a vortex with matrix looking green code on the sides. I had the intention of going into someone elses dream. But, the text access denied popped up in front of me, and I got spit back out.
Also my brother told me when ever he trys to fly to space he cannot get past the atomosphere

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## Snowboy

You know, isn't funny how it's hard to get to the moon in the waking world as well as the dream plane? Irony can be pretty interesting sometimes!

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## The Cusp

The problem with flying to the moon has to do with perspective ratios.  In order to have movement, you have to be moving relative to something else.  Once you get far enough away from the earth, you have nothing to gauge your movement against.  It's not like there are trees and lamp posts along the side of the road or anything.  Without these markers you lose all sense of movement which screws with your flight.

That's what makes flying directly to the moon difficult, and flying at the speed of light impossible.

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## Snowboy

> The problem with flying to the moon has to do with perspective ratios.  In order to have movement, you have to be moving relative to something else.  Once you get far enough away from the earth, you have nothing to gauge your movement against.  It's not like there are trees and lamp posts along the side of the road or anything.  Without these markers you lose all sense of movement which screws with your flight.
> 
> That's what makes flying directly to the moon difficult, and flying at the speed of light impossible.



True; that was some clever thinking.

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## spockman

> The problem with flying to the moon has to do with perspective ratios.  In order to have movement, you have to be moving relative to something else.  Once you get far enough away from the earth, you have nothing to gauge your movement against.  It's not like there are trees and lamp posts along the side of the road or anything.  Without these markers you lose all sense of movement which screws with your flight.
> 
> That's what makes flying directly to the moon difficult, and flying at the speed of light impossible.



That is an interesting point, but I think I can get around it.Point a flashlight at the moon. Turn it on. Try and race the light ray to the moon. Use the ray of light as your reference, hopefully you will be matching it's speed and be able to see the end of the ray of light. Also, use the moon as a point of reference to some degree. Use the fact that it is getting larger and larger as you edge up on it as a way to gauge distance from your target. If I had already transformed the world into an anime/video game to make my expectations for the fantastic, this should be doable.

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## The Cusp

> That is an interesting point, but I think I can get around it.Point a flashlight at the moon. Turn it on. Try and race the light ray to the moon. Use the ray of light as your reference, hopefully you will be matching it's speed and be able to see the end of the ray of light. Also, use the moon as a point of reference to some degree. Use the fact that it is getting larger and larger as you edge up on it as a way to gauge distance from your target. If I had already transformed the world into an anime/video game to make my expectations for the fantastic, this should be doable.



Sure, you could do that...  But that would be like wanting a steak for dinner, but going about preparing it by first genetically engineering a cow.  The more unnecessary steps you create, the farther you are from your goal.  You need to remain fluid in dreams and be able to abandon something that isn't working for you.

Second rule of dream control:  The more attention you give something, the more related detail it creates.  When you method reaches the point where you need to start adding things for it to succeed, then it's become an unnecessary distraction.  The method you're trying to use is an obstacle to attaining your goal.

I can't really give a specific method to get to the moon without giving another unnecessary distraction to hook your attention.  But it doesn't have to be a difficult thing to accomplish.  Just keep your eye on the prize and ignore anything that isn't helpful to reaching your goals.

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## ThePreserver

> I will simply change my expectations. Yes, in a vivid real world environment flying to the moon at anything less than a _ridiculous speed_ would take months.



Yes, we're gunna have to go right to LUDICROUS SPEED!

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## Snowboy

You know, I wonder what would happen if we downed ten cups of coffee then tried spockman's idea?  ::hrm::

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## Ferret

Nomad do you think because we have read that its hard do you think itl make it harder than if we didnt know? Or even if we didnt know would it still be hard as fuck?

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## Baron Samedi

> Nomad do you think because we have read that its hard do you think itl make it harder than if we didnt know? Or even if we didnt know would it still be hard as fuck?



I thought I might make it harder by saying that it is, so I didn't tell people for a long time. When it was made a Task of the Year, it seemed my theory was universal. I decided to tell people because I realized I wouldn't make it harder by talking about it.

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## terezrucker

just fly up there duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

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## Ferret

> I thought I might make it harder by saying that it is, so I didn't tell people for a long time. When it was made a Task of the Year, it seemed my theory was universal. I decided to tell people because I realized I wouldn't make it harder by talking about it.



Ahh interesting, I thought something like that would be the case. My plan to get to the moon isnt as high a goal for me now, iv wasted so many lucids trying to get there and im really bad at flying. I need to start practicing teleporting or something.

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## 44CalibreSunlight

I attempted this once; I think I only failed because it was near the end of a long dream involving skidoo chases and a confrontation with an old rival. Lucidity prompted me to try and fly up there, it was a beautiful night and just after this Troy guy called me out for shooting his father in the head I told him we were dreaming, looked up at the huuuge moon and took off. I flew really fast at first but then one sliver of doubt crossed my mind and as though gravity increased I was pulled to the ground and woke up.

Besides the fact that my doubt caused me to fail, I think with enough confidence simply flying there should be no problem. When I did it I crouched down and shot upward with a huge burst of will to do so. I'd say all it'd take is concentration and confidence, which is really the basis of all dream control.

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## Hukif

I wonder, why people don't try to use a spaceship with super speed and just enjoy the ride? I did that today <.<





> Back to sleep.
> 
> I was sitting on a really comfy seat, assumed I was going to school on the bus, so just leaned a bit and tried to fall back asleep. That is when I saw a star in the distance, wondered just how dark it was on the street, well that got my attention and I woke up a little more, enough to do a RC and then become lucid.
> 
> Tried to jump out of my seat, but was unable to as there was no gravity at all! When I looked out saw we were already outside of earth, and were heading towards the moon now, still far from it but at least out. I started working harder on modifying my body.
> 
> At some point, they said we would be entering into super-speed mode so the travel would take less time, then they said to get a firm grip of the seats and try to not faint or die... I got a bit scared by that, but had already finished transforming my body and now there was no problem with going into space anymore, wake up while we were landing on the place.

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## mikeac

Here's my opinion.  In order to get to the moon, you cannot use any unnecessary energy.  This is why wormholes are the best option, as it allows for superluminal travel.  If you were to connect two wormhole mouths together light years away from each other, light would travel faster in the wormhole than outside the wormhole. "Wormholes allow superluminal (faster-than-light) travel by ensuring that the speed of light is not exceeded locally at any time."  

If you don't get that, let's say this.  Imagine a mountain with a tunnel (a wormhole) going through it.  One person is traveling at a high speed around the mountain, and another is traveling at a much slower speed through the tunnel.  Depending on the circumference (the distance traveling somewhere without a wormhole), and the diameter (the distance traveling through the wormhole to a destination), usually the tunnel person would travel faster.  This isn't a perfect analogy, because sometimes it would be faster to travel around the mountain then through it.  BUT even if you did travel around the mountain, it would take more gas to travel around the mountain and get there first (aka trying to fly to the moon at top speed and wasting your energy, ending the dream) than to go through the tunnel (traveling through a wormhole shortcut using minimal energy and succeeding).

I don't have a great explanation but this will do.

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## Snowboy

> than to go through the tunnel (traveling through a wormhole shortcut using minimal energy and succeeding).



Did you forget that energy parasites suck your energy in the wormhole?  ::|:

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## The Cusp

I just thought of something that might simplify flying to the moon.  Use the moon's gravitational pull.  If you can get a feel for the gravity of the moon pulling you, that should make it much easier to fly there directly

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## Snowboy

> I just thought of something that might simplify flying to the moon.  Use the moon's gravitational pull.  If you can get a feel for the gravity of the moon pulling you, that should make it much easier to fly there directly



Ha ha, yeah, you can imagine the gravity as a hand pulling you really fast towards the moon.  ::lol::

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## mikeac

> Did you forget that energy parasites suck your energy in the wormhole?



Yes, but I mean when the wyrms have created a clean ecosystem.  Otherwise, both ways are just about the same amount of failure.  And also, the moon's gravity the The Cusp mentioned sounds neat.

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## Snowboy

> Yes, but I mean when the wyrms have created a clean ecosystem.



Well, that isn't happening in this lifetime... without interference!!  ::D: 

I want to try the ten cups of coffee then race a beam of light to the moon. That sounds awesome!

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## Butcher

i didnt read any thing the last time i sow this threat ,, i just sow the pic .
in a dream i tried to make this hole , i did ,, it was just a black and white and really wiered .
i said to my self ,, this will teleport me to the girls planet .
i jumped in it ( i made it on the ground ) .
and when i arrived i found my self in the middle of the sea . sea around me every where ,, and a big fish was coming to eat me !
i cant remember exactly how i get out of there . but that was interesting  ::D:  .

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## Snowboy

> i didnt read any thing the last time i sow this threat ,, i just sow the pic .
> in a dream i tried to make this hole , i did ,, it was just a black and white and really wiered .
> i said to my self ,, this will teleport me to the _girls planet_ .
> i jumped in it ( i made it on the ground ) .
> and when i arrived i found my self in the middle of the sea . sea around me every where ,, and a _big fish was coming to eat me_ !
> i cant remember exactly how i get out of there . but that was interesting  .



Nice girls, huh?  ::lol::

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## Ketsuyume

I've never been "on" the moon in my dreams. For as long as I can remember (back to being 4 or 5... 20 years ago), the moon has been a hostile entity with a face and a malicious personality in my dreams... much like the moon on Zelda: Majora's Mask. It used to come down out of the sky and attack me; (It's size ranging from the size of a large human, to the size of the moon in Majora's Mask.) I'd have repeating nightmares where even though the setting was different, the Moon was always the enemy after me. (The goal was often to not get caught in the moonlight, otherwise it would come after me.) This happened so often growing up that I was afraid of the moon in real life for a long time as a child. In my early teenage years I started really fighting back (we'd have battles of sorts), and I got to the point where to moon doesn't frighten me any longer.

Because I overcame this fear/repeating nightmare, I don't dream of the moon as often as I used to, but when I DO have a dream where the moon is in the sky, it STILL... always... has a face, and I can still feel it's hostility toward me... even if all it does nowadays is stare at me unless I OFFER it a challenge. Simply staring at the moon in my dreams and thinking about battling it causes it to come out of the sky and fight me... though I never lose now, I'm not afraid, and it can't attack me unless I give it permission.

So yeah... I've had weird experiences with the moon... I've never actually been able to "get" there because it's always been something entirely different in my dreams for as long as I can remember. 

Anyone else ever experience anything like this with the moon or am I unique? I don't know how it's possible for me to "go" to the moon, as whenever it appears in my dreams, this is the form it always takes.

Cheers.

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## Snowboy

> I've never been "on" the moon in my dreams. For as long as I can remember (back to being 4 or 5... 20 years ago), the moon has been a hostile entity with a face and a malicious personality in my dreams... much like the moon on Zelda: Majora's Mask. It used to come down out of the sky and attack me; (It's size ranging from the size of a large human, to the size of the moon in Majora's Mask.) I'd have repeating nightmares where even though the setting was different, the Moon was always the enemy after me. (The goal was often to not get caught in the moonlight, otherwise it would come after me.) This happened so often growing up that I was afraid of the moon in real life for a long time as a child. In my early teenage years I started really fighting back (we'd have battles of sorts), and I got to the point where to moon doesn't frighten me any longer.
> 
> Because I overcame this fear/repeating nightmare, I don't dream of the moon as often as I used to, but when I DO have a dream where the moon is in the sky, it STILL... always... has a face, and I can still feel it's hostility toward me... even if all it does nowadays is stare at me unless I OFFER it a challenge. Simply staring at the moon in my dreams and thinking about battling it causes it to come out of the sky and fight me... though I never lose now, I'm not afraid, and it can't attack me unless I give it permission.
> 
> So yeah... I've had weird experiences with the moon... I've never actually been able to "get" there because it's always been something entirely different in my dreams for as long as I can remember. 
> 
> Anyone else ever experience anything like this with the moon or am I unique? I don't know how it's possible for me to "go" to the moon, as whenever it appears in my dreams, this is the form it always takes.
> 
> Cheers.



Wow, that's weird. You should try to get on it then challenge it to a fight to see what happens.  :Cheeky: 

ZERO-GRAVITY FIGHT!!!  ::D:

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## Ketsuyume

Well, naturally I don't think I'm dealing with the *actual* celestial body in my dream... my problem is my brain has been hardwired this way as a child, so whenever I think, "moon" in my dreams, it's very difficult to get beyond this image/idea. 

Heh, I've had a few Zero Gravity fights. Nowadays one punch is all it takes to end things... but I haven't fought it in a while cuz I don't see the point anymore. :/

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## Snowboy

You can learn martial arts and try it out on him. ^.^

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## Mzzkc

> The problem with flying to the moon has to do with perspective ratios.  In order to have movement, you have to be moving relative to something else.  Once you get far enough away from the earth, you have nothing to gauge your movement against.  It's not like there are trees and lamp posts along the side of the road or anything.  Without these markers you lose all sense of movement which screws with your flight.
> 
> That's what makes flying directly to the moon difficult, and flying at the speed of light impossible.



In my successful flights to the Moon and Mars, I fixed the issue by looking down at Earth and "zooming out" in a Google-Earth-like fashion. Though, the hard part about doing that proved to be slowing down and resuming normal movement and flight; landing was a bitch, let me tell you.





> but I haven't fought it in a while cuz I don't see the point anymore. :/



QFT

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## DarkoMarco

> When I created a portal to go to the  moon, a small portal flew down from the sky and I entered it. It was only after waking up from the worst nightmare of my life, did I realize that first portal looked just like a CC scout. A white small orb.
> 
> But just before I flew into the portal/scout - I saw another portal behind it, much larger, one that actually looked like a wormhole or vortex. I think my dream would have been much nicer had I gone through that one.
> 
> 
> When it comes to portals and wormholes, my warning is, do you know what it is you're entering? Do you know about CC scouts? Do you know the telltale signs of what they look like, what they do?
> 
> Stick to teleporting, or using other dream techniques to teleport, such as a door
> 
> PS. I don't think anyone should take anything in their dreams as the literal objective truth, Nomad. And who ever these gods are that you've met, they first and foremost represent you.



Pretty cool when you were talking about tunnels being alive. Made me think of this


By the way,,,,what is a CC scout???
Sounds intriguing.
Now I'm thinking of the tool/alex grey video,,,,,,if you have never seen it I highly suggest you take a second and watch it.

----------


## Ketsuyume

Hahah, DarkoMarco when I saw that pic you posted, I instantly thought of Tool and  then I scrolled down to see the rest of your message and BAM. There was one of their songs.  ::D:

----------


## Mayatara

My first going to the moon, on the 22nd Dec 2010. What I saw there doesn't quite fit into WakingNomad descriptions, but I guess the moon is big and maybe there's more unexplored landscapes and cityscapes still waiting to be described. Or maybe I just imagined it all  :smiley: 





> I recall going through some arched narrow hallway when I became lucid. I had fallen asleep thinking I wanted to finally go to the moon, so I thought about doing it. Found a door and wanted to do the portal to the other side trick by opening the door, but instead I went inside this room and decided for a more original approach. This room looked exactly like a pod and I imagined it to be like that pod that hit the moon in the eye on that classic French film “Trip to the Moon”. It was very steampunk inspired. It had one round window which I shuttered and the pod became dark. I touched the wall looking for an imaginary button which I found and used to fire the imaginary engines. The lift off felt extremely realistic, with blasting sound and all. I didn’t want this to go forever, so I pictured it ending after a few seconds and it did. I felt it landing. I almost woke up, but managed to stay on the dream when I slowly opened the shutters to check the outside.
> At first I felt I had failed. There was a girl outside looking through the window. Very pretty with curly ginger hair. She smiled at me as I exited the pod. I had landed in the middle of some busy street of some normal looking town. There was something odd about it but then I noticed it was the 50’s retro look of the place and people’s clothes and hairstyles. I had doubts this was the moon. I was about to ask her but I was scared to death by some ocean rising on my left, exactly like the streets of Paris rose above people’s heads on the Inception movie when Ariadne is playing with the dream. I could see a wall of water by my side and the fishes swimming but it never really engulfed me. Before that happened, it receded in a flash and on its place blossomed a mushroom of flat and round transformable screens, showing all kinds of images. I had the clear feeling I had seen this before and I turned to the girl to mention it. But she had already started walking and I went after her. We walked out of the town and passed by some high plateau with view over a giant canyon. At the bottom of it I could see cities sprawling to where the eyes could see. On the top of the plateau there was a giant lake and I almost fell on the water at some point of a narrow passage we walked in. Then we arrived at her tiny tiny car. Two girls were there waiting for us.
> I finally got to ask them if this was the moon. They said “why, of course. Look up!” Then I looked up to the sky. It was perfect blue with some tattered white clouds and there it was: the Earth in the sky! Wow, pretty cool! But then I also noticed 2 other crescent moons. I got confused. I ask them about it but they just said, yeah, the moon has two moons. “And how come we don’t know that on Earth?” They didn’t reply.
> They got in the car and I wondered how in the world I could fit in too. In the front there was only the driver’s seat and on the back only two extra seats. The girl closer to the door looked at me with very little will to make space for me. I asked her why the sky was so blue and if this place was under a protective dome or if they had terraformed the moon. She looked at me with a condescendent look and replied "Both!" as if it was damn obvious.
> She finally squeezed in and I did to. It was an awful feeling and I almost woke up with the claustrophobic sensation and the pain in my legs when I closed the door and got so crammed inside. But I thought “It’s just a dream, the pain is just an illusion, there’s no lack of air either...”, so I manage to cope. It wasn’t long until we arrived at some facilities. On the left of the road was a long white ground level building which was some research lab of some kind. On the right side of the road there were greenhouses. The girls went to the building on the left but I felt attracted to the greenhouses. I entered the first one and there was a guy sitting on a chair in front of some table looking on a microscope or something like that. He just turned his head to see me. Looked surprise but didn’t ask any questions. I smiled at him and kept going inside looking around at all the plants. There were also some ponds, I guess for the aquatic plants. They all looked so alien. I observed one in more detail, which had a white pompon like flower sticking from the middle of an orange like structure sitting on a crown of thick leaves. The white pompon was retractable, like some ocean tubeworms. I see many plants I suspect may be poisonous or have some secret tentacles coming out if I get too close, so I try to keep a safe distance from them. Then I find the red hair girl again on the second greenhouse (they are all connected through passages), talking to some guy at a counter. He is showing her the latest animal they’ve created. It looks like some twisted twig with dozens of fractal like branches spreading from its main torso and it looks and moves like a ramified worm would. She picks it up in her hands and the animal escapes up her arm and up her neck and hides in her lushy ginger hair. It gives me the creeps but she is loving it. The guy then says the best part is this creature eats dust! Its favourite food is dustballs! They laugh at the perfect pet they just got! “Imagine having a few of these around in your house! No more dusting necessary!” I recognize it would be useful, but no way I would like to have those creepy creatures around.
> Then i didn’t explore more of this world, because I woke up.

----------


## Eonnn

Its not hard for me to get to the moon. I just fly up high into the sky, go into space, then fly straight to the moon.

----------


## saltyseedog

I had a lucid a week ago where I was staring at the moon, and then I got sucked up super fast and was on the surface of the moon looking at the earth. Then I got ripped off the surface through space. It was pretty intense.

----------


## Chimpertainment

so ive never been to the moon but i have been in space many times. Its been a while so my memory is hazy but from what i recall it was somewhat like swimming. There is no easy way to propel because you no longer have gravity to use as a "rebound power". I never thought to go to the moon but when i get back into lucidity i will definitely try that. anyways, if anyone is trying right now perhaps using a different propelling energy in your mind might work. 
btw, flying around the sun is fucking amazing. i remember doing that a few times, i cant wait to go back.  :smiley:

----------


## Serenity

> I must tell you, I have not seen a single DJ entry of anyone flying to the moon. They always teleport, open a portal or door, or go in a spaceship.
> 
> Flying is the hardest way.



Let me bring that up for you!  :smiley: 





> April 16, 2010 (the original post is currently in my old dream journal, which now resides in my Waking Journal forum)
> 
> *I Made it to the Moon!* (MILD)
> I don't know if this dream was actually shared, or not. There is actually more to this dream then I can recall. I only have a clear memory of the lucid bits 
> 
> I was at home, upstairs, looking out one of the back windows to my yard. I saw something (can't recall what) out there that made me think I should go down there.
> 
> As I approached the backyard, I see a black dog running excitedly towards me. "Buttons!" I think. As the dog approaches, I can see her eyes. I recognize my dog in those eyes, and something in the back of my head twinges. I then notice that Buttons is attached to her leash (we kept a leash post in our backyard, because we have no fence, but that's all since been removed when she passed away). I wondered to myself, _"I went back in time or something?"_ and the twinge got stronger. I tossed a frisbee for Buttons, who ran after it, and I heard something behind me. I turned around, and saw another Buttons running after the frisbee! _"Two Buttonses?!! Ohhh, I get it, it's a dream."_
> 
> ...



This dream is old enough that I still used my old forum name, before I got them to change it to Serenity  ::D:

----------


## Baron Samedi

> Pretty cool when you were talking about tunnels being alive. Made me think of this
> 
> 
> By the way,,,,what is a CC scout???
> Sounds intriguing.
> Now I'm thinking of the tool/alex grey video,,,,,,if you have never seen it I highly suggest you take a second and watch it.



I love Tool. I love Alex Grey. CC Scout: In a Carlos Casteneda book, The Art of Dreaming, don Juan talks about a finding a Scout in dreams.





> My first going to the moon, on the 22nd Dec 2010. What I saw there doesn't quite fit into WakingNomad descriptions, but I guess the moon is big and maybe there's more unexplored landscapes and cityscapes still waiting to be described. Or maybe I just imagined it all



Awesome. Raven, Q, and I recently terraformed the Moon! In the City of Nowhere, there is a man, Jose, who grows strange sentient plants! He was in one of my first dreams of that city.





> Its not hard for me to get to the moon. I just fly up high into the sky, go into space, then fly straight to the moon.



Awesome! Is it in your DJ? Come to the Tower and the Biodome.





> I had a lucid a week ago where I was staring at the moon, and then I got sucked up super fast and was on the surface of the moon looking at the earth. Then I got ripped off the surface through space. It was pretty intense.



Nice. Is it in your DJ?





> so ive never been to the moon but i have been in space many times. Its been a while so my memory is hazy but from what i recall it was somewhat like swimming. There is no easy way to propel because you no longer have gravity to use as a "rebound power". I never thought to go to the moon but when i get back into lucidity i will definitely try that. anyways, if anyone is trying right now perhaps using a different propelling energy in your mind might work. 
> btw, flying around the sun is fucking amazing. i remember doing that a few times, i cant wait to go back.



That is cool! The way I fly is also through repelling gravity! Fascinating.





> Let me bring that up for you! 
> 
> This dream is old enough that I still used my old forum name, before I got them to change it to Serenity



I remember this dream. Thanks for posting it here!

----------


## Eonnn

> Awesome! Is it in your DJ? Come to the Tower and the Biodome.



No, I only include dreams in my DJ that seem paranormal or transcendental in nature and my dreams about the moon haven't passed this test. I'm not too fussed about going to the moon, theres nothing up there.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> No, I only include dreams in my DJ that seem paranormal or transcendental in nature and my dreams about the moon haven't passed this test. I'm not too fussed about going to the moon, theres nothing up there.



There is a whole lot of Nothing on the Moon. I love Nothing, because Nothing is free.

----------


## Mayatara

> Awesome. Raven, Q, and I recently terraformed the Moon! In the City of Nowhere, there is a man, Jose, who grows strange sentient plants! He was in one of my first dreams of that city.



Well, I didn't know that. Now the dream makes a lot more sense to me  :smiley:

----------


## Baron Samedi

> Well, I didn't know that. Now the dream makes a lot more sense to me



There is the City of Nowhere in the Land of Nod, on the Dark Side of the Moon.

There is a city in the Biodome also. 

There are probably many dream cities on the moon.

----------


## spockman

> There is the City of Nowhere in the Land of Nod, on the Dark Side of the Moon.
> 
> There is a city in the Biodome also. 
> 
> There are probably many dream cities on the moon.



What, Nod like, Hebrew pre-historic Nod?

----------


## Baron Samedi

> What, Nod like, Hebrew pre-historic Nod?



Yes. Or the land of dreams. or both.

----------


## Snowboy

I might have passed through a wormhole two nights ago. I wasn't able to move around or see my body, but it was still pretty cool. It was just a multitude of colors, some blending into each other. I was just flying through it for a bit before seeing some exits to my right side, and eventually I took one of them. I landed in some 1500's place or something like that. There was just a lot of grass and stone towers, so I'm just assuming that. It's not in my DJ.

----------


## kidcrow

Nomad, I don't know about the wormholes but I can tell you I have reached the moon. Honestly, I hated it there. It was dark yet bright at the same time, and there were people there. They didn't want me there so they threw me to earth, and I landed in some unknown neighborhood. When I tried to get back, I was unable to...I completely lost my ability to control my dream even though I was still aware I was dreaming. I haven't been to the moon since then or even seen a moon.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> Nomad, I don't know about the wormholes but I can tell you I have reached the moon. Honestly, I hated it there. It was dark yet bright at the same time, and there were people there. They didn't want me there so they threw me to earth, and I landed in some unknown neighborhood. When I tried to get back, I was unable to...I completely lost my ability to control my dream even though I was still aware I was dreaming. I haven't been to the moon since then or even seen a moon.



Fuck those guys. Come to the City of Nowhere on the Dark side of the Moon. It's a great walled city made of sandstone.

----------


## kidcrow

I don't know how to get back. I never see the moon, and even while lucid I'm unable to fly there. I would gladly join but I guess my lucidity abilities aren't up to par.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> I don't know how to get back. I never see the moon, and even while lucid I'm unable to fly there. I would gladly join but I guess my lucidity abilities aren't up to par.



I am unable to fly there also. That's part of the discussion here. Flying seems to be the hardest way. Try another method.

----------


## kidcrow

Aight I will and I'll report back to you but when I get there, should I try to make peace? Last time they threw me off...

----------


## roswell

As I was reading don Juan for the first time, I fell asleep with the book still open in my hands. I dreamed that I was in my bed and I saw something moving under the blanket from my feet towards my head. I was pretty freaked out and whatever it was kept coming.

I grabbed it as feathers began to appear on my blanket and the whole thing turned neon green. I found myself holding on to the back/wings of a huge glowing green hawk. I began to accept whatever fate awaited me because the hawk was powerful beyond imagining.

The hawk flew out my bedroom window with me clinging to its back. We soared up into space and through the universe. My fear turned into exhiliration as we passed through star systems at the speed of light. We slowed down as we approached a dual star which I somehow knew was Sirius. 

We flew around Sirius a few times and then the great bird flew me back home to my bed.

----------


## Man of Shred

that's an awesome dream Roswell!

----------


## saltyseedog

The one time I remember going through a wormhole when I went through a portal it looked like this but it was green

----------


## spockman

> The one time I remember going through a wormhole when I went through a portal it looked like this but it was green



Was it that matrixy?

----------


## saltyseedog

> Was it that matrixy?



lol yes. I went in the portal with the intention of going into someone elses dream after a couple seconds The text access denied popped up in front of me and I was shot back out in the direction I came from, landed in the room (where the portal was) and woke up.

----------


## mikeac

> lol yes. I went in the portal with the intention of going into someone elses dream after a couple seconds The text access denied popped up in front of me and I was shot back out in the direction I came from, landed in the room (where the portal was) and woke up.



That's so awesome.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> Aight I will and I'll report back to you but when I get there, should I try to make peace? Last time they threw me off...




Hug them, or kick their ass.





> As I was reading don Juan for the first time, I fell asleep with the book still open in my hands. I dreamed that I was in my bed and I saw something moving under the blanket from my feet towards my head. I was pretty freaked out and whatever it was kept coming.
> 
> I grabbed it as feathers began to appear on my blanket and the whole thing turned neon green. I found myself holding on to the back/wings of a huge glowing green hawk. I began to accept whatever fate awaited me because the hawk was powerful beyond imagining.
> 
> The hawk flew out my bedroom window with me clinging to its back. We soared up into space and through the universe. My fear turned into exhiliration as we passed through star systems at the speed of light. We slowed down as we approached a dual star which I somehow knew was Sirius. 
> 
> We flew around Sirius a few times and then the great bird flew me back home to my bed.



Ah, Sirius, the dog star. 





> The one time I remember going through a wormhole when I went through a portal it looked like this but it was green



YESH!

----------


## Moto

I'm goin to make this one of my dream goals again.  TO THE CITY OF NOWHERE I GO.

----------


## Snowboy

Working on prolonging dreams and staying in dreams. Should hit moon sometime in several months.

----------


## Mayatara

Here's my second dream on the moon. 





> *Cyborg attack to a moon dome*
> I go into blackness and I wake up in a cottage. I recognize many of my stuff in there, but I do not recognize the house itself. It had green doors and a tiled kitchen. I did a RC but it was not easy to conclude whether or not I was dreaming. I finally decided that I was. At this moment I almost woke up. Everything was black and I felt my body in bed, but I made the effort to come back and I found myself back in that house. I recalled again I wanted to go to the biodome in the moon. I used a door as a portal, but instead of opening it, I crossed it  - silly, could have crossed any wall for the same effect.
> I found myself again in the darkness, but I made an effort to feel the ground beneath my feet, to stabilize the sleep. I felt a metal floor and then I stick my left leg to try to feel what was around there. I felt my foot sinking in water. Then slowly an image formed. I was on some sort of entrance hall, with a metal ramp with broad steps. Some of the steps had small round ponds on the left side. 
> I went down the steps and to my left the wall became a large glass wall. Outside there was green grass and maybe 5 meters away were vertical white buildings aligned perpendicularly to this hall and forming corridors between them. By now I was in doubt this was the biodome, but because I still wanted it to be, I found two koi fish in the last larger pond, on the last larger step of the hall. One of the fish was enormous and transparent and had many other koi fish inside it. The fish rose in the air and it was hovering in front of my face. I had an unpleasant feeling about this and I was sure this was about to degenerate into a nightmare, but I rejected it and sent the fish back to the pond. The nightmare dissipated and in front of me I then saw the entrance to this world.
> On my right side there was a wall covered in ivy and branches of a lemon tree pending. I set my foot on the ground, which was covered with green grass. I felt I was in Paradise. There was a beautiful flowered valley, gentle green hills with lavish fruit trees and a bright blue sky. I saw people in the distance but they were very discrete. I looked up to try to understand if this was inside a dome or not and I saw the comb-like structure of a dome, very well disguised by the blue sky and the white clouds. I did not know if the blue sky was outside or merely an image projected on the dome, but it looked projected. The dome wasnt big, because I could see its limits in the nearby horizon.
> I walked down to the valley, admiring the wonderful orchards and I decided to call my Dream Guide. I have never called it before and it was a good occasion as nay other. But before anyone replied to my call, I saw a pink spot spreading from one of the limits of the dome, like in a defect on a LCD screen. Then I saw another and another and another. I realized it was some kind of attack to the dome and in seconds I saw an army of cyborgs coming in from those holes in the dome. I could see their robotic structure under some kind of bionic transparent cover they wore. They were firing plasma guns all over. Then I saw all the people I had seen at distance before, running from every direction into the white buildings. I thought I should probably do the same, but the cyborgs were already everywhere! There were plasma explosions all around me. I was really in doubt about what to do. Then some guy, whose face I never saw, comes running from behind me and grabs my left arm and pushes me up a tree in the orchard. He hands me something and throws me into the tree trunk. Before I knew it, I had been ejected at high speed through a hatch in the dome and was hovering in outer space, in the starry night sky. It was all so fast. 
> 
> 28 Jan: Cyborg attack to a moon dome

----------


## Captain Frapo

My friend across the street has an inkling that the moon is hollow. We have a longstanding goal to meet in the middle of the road, fly to the moon together, and break into it.

----------


## Snowboy

I... almost... made... it.  :Bang head: 

I tried flying to the moon at some point in the past week, but I landed on a small, obviously fake moon! When I woke up I was so pissed...  :Pissed:

----------


## saltyseedog

> I... almost... made... it. 
> 
> I tried flying to the moon at some point in the past week, but I landed on a small, obviously fake moon! When I woke up I was so pissed...



No way in one of my first lucids I created a portal with the intention of going to the moon and I ended up on something that looked like a moon made out of paper mache. And I was controling this little guy who was jumping around the moon. It resembled something from that game little big planet, which I had never played at the time, and recently I played a demo of that game on my brothers ps3 and was tripping out on how similar my dream was to the game.

----------


## Snowboy

Yep... very frustrating, indeed.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> Here's my second dream on the moon.



That is so awesome! Cyborgs, eh? Please come again! On the other side is the City of Nowhere.





> I... almost... made... it. 
> 
> I tried flying to the moon at some point in the past week, but I landed on a small, obviously fake moon! When I woke up I was so pissed...







> No way in one of my first lucids I created a portal with the intention of going to the moon and I ended up on something that looked like a moon made out of paper mache. And I was controling this little guy who was jumping around the moon. It resembled something from that game little big planet, which I had never played at the time, and recently I played a demo of that game on my brothers ps3 and was tripping out on how similar my dream was to the game.







> Yep... very frustrating, indeed.



Something like this happened to me. I couldn't portal to the Moon, and when I tried flying, the Green Moon was on fire. I saw another light in the corner of my eye. It was another Moon. But, it also became engulfed in flames. I freaked out, and woke up. Imagine seeing your house on fire in a lucid dream.

----------


## Snowboy

> Something like this happened to me. I couldn't portal to the Moon, and when I tried flying, the Green Moon was on fire. I saw another light in the corner of my eye. *It was another Moon*. But, it also became engulfed in flames. I freaked out, and woke up. Imagine seeing your house on fire in a lucid dream.

----------


## Caden

I had a LD years ago of being on Mars during a rain shower.  I didn't know where I was at first but I know what Mars looked like but everything was a bit off.  The rain felt like the drops where very very small and the red sand felt like a thick dust made into a paste by the water and it was very cold.  Mars should be a lot colder and totally dry.  I searched in my senses for anyone, nothing.  Then I searched for anything alive and I felt a shocking vacancy of life which I have never felt before or since, total 100% sterility.  Then I realized this was Mars!  I could see some puddles and the water was oddly a little gray.  It couldn't get over how this was supposed to be Mars and yet it wasn't by any measure that _I_ had.  This weired me out and I started to lose my connection with it all and woke up.

I think it is hard for most people to go to the moon is because they don't feel it as a real place.  Sure you know its real but do you FEEL its realness like it is as real as the corner on your street?  Read and study pictures about the place you want to go as much as you can stand and then bring it up in a LD.  You have to really believe it.  If you can't believe it you can't achieve it.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> I had a LD years ago of being on Mars during a rain shower.  I didn't know where I was at first but I know what Mars looked like but everything was a bit off.  The rain felt like the drops where very very small and the red sand felt like a thick dust made into a paste by the water and it was very cold.  Mars should be a lot colder and totally dry.  I searched in my senses for anyone, nothing.  Then I searched for anything alive and I felt a shocking vacancy of life which I have never felt before or since, total 100% sterility.  Then I realized this was Mars!  I could see some puddles and the water was oddly a little gray.  It couldn't get over how this was supposed to be Mars and yet it wasn't by any measure that _I_ had.  This weired me out and I started to lose my connection with it all and woke up.
> 
> I think it is hard for most people to go to the moon is because they don't feel it as a real place.  Sure you know its real but do you FEEL its realness like it is as real as the corner on your street?  Read and study pictures about the place you want to go as much as you can stand and then bring it up in a LD.  You have to really believe it.  If you can't believe it you can't achieve it.



Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

----------


## Blacklight

A long time ago I had a lucid where I was flying completely effortlessly. I tried to fly to the moon but hit a giant barrier of dense dark clouds. It started to rain and as I made it through the clouds I found myself on the surface of an endless ocean but the moon was nowhere to be seen.

----------


## Captain Frapo

The times that I've flown to the moon I manage to break through the event horizon in space but always seem to black out at this point before I actually reach the moon.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> A long time ago I had a lucid where I was flying completely effortlessly. I tried to fly to the moon but hit a giant barrier of dense dark clouds. It started to rain and as I made it through the clouds I found myself on the surface of an endless ocean but the moon was nowhere to be seen.







> The times that I've flown to the moon I manage to break through the event horizon in space but always seem to black out at this point before I actually reach the moon.



There is a pattern here.

----------


## goonsdoom

Maybe because we have never experienced anything like the moon, sure we have seen it. but actually experienced it ourselves? no. The thought of a place where there is no law, no gravity, no life, both in lucid and real life, is to complex for our mind to understand. look up " schemeta " shows how dreams are formed, if we have no starting point for the moon we cannot force ourselves to make a moon universe

----------


## Ferret

I duno about that, people have experienced things in dreams before waking life and they end up being very similar if not the same, such as drugs and sex

----------


## Caden

I've had several about being on Mars.

----------


## Erii

I didn't even use worm holes when I went, I just started flying into the sky

----------


## Polarity

> Maybe because we have never experienced anything like the moon, sure we have seen it. but actually experienced it ourselves? no. The thought of a place where there is no law, no gravity, no life, both in lucid and real life, is to complex for our mind to understand. look up " schemeta " shows how dreams are formed, if we have no starting point for the moon we cannot force ourselves to make a moon universe



I personally think that it is us to put limit to our dreams. We can't do something because we are born within the waking life and thus we've grown following its laws.
On the dream plane, we must leave all of the waking life laws and embrace freedom.

----------


## saltyseedog

I think its because we think about everything we experience and get caught up in expectations. Habitual behaviors lead to unawareness.

----------


## Philosopher8659

Okay, if your writing fiction, however, one cannot predicate of a first principle, which makes the whole thing fiction.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> I didn't even use worm holes when I went, I just started flying into the sky



Please write the dream and put it in your DJ.

----------


## Osmodin

Cool something els to try to do. Haveing tea on the moon with the moon people.

----------


## italianmonkey

> I just thought of something that might simplify flying to the moon.  Use the moon's gravitational pull.  If you can get a feel for the gravity of the moon pulling you, that should make it much easier to fly there directly



 



> I had a lucid a week ago where I was staring  at the moon, and then I got sucked up super fast and was on the surface  of the moon looking at the earth. Then I got ripped off the surface  through space. It was pretty intense.



Cusp: tried about an year ago. the pull felt kinda like in saltyseedog's dream, but i got distracted at mid-suck ( ::lol:: )  and the moon became more like a map than an actual planet. when i hit the groudn, i just "pierced" the dream and ended in new, empty, gray dream, which soon ended.

----------


## ThePreserver

> I personally think that it is us to put limit to our dreams. We can't do something because we are born within the waking life and thus we've grown following its laws.
> On the dream plane, we must leave all of the waking life laws and embrace freedom.



Tell me about it.  I've had a couple recent lucid dreams after a huge dry spell in which I could only fly about 10 feet in the air... and then I fell back to the earth.  I also tried summoning my friend, or even a DC of my friend, to where I was... and it was a DIFFERENT friend both times.  And I couldn't shoot fireballs out of my hands without making sound effects with my mouth when I was trying to kill the monks that were swarming my home.  My biggest goal now is dream control.  I keep taking things for granted.

----------


## Chimpertainment

> I've had several about being on Mars.



The atmosphere you describe fits what Mars would have been millions of years ago before the water froze into ice. There is high iron content in the soil there hence the red and water would probably turn the soil into a clay like substance. 
There is definitely an ability to access unknown knowledge on the dream plane. Its just a matter of opening ones expectations to embrace anything that comes through the information line. Once you end up on the real moon its gonna be EPIC because it will feel real!

----------


## Caden

Tell me people why does anyone _want_ to go to the moon?  Once you've seen one crater you've seen them all.

Hey that car is still there!

----------


## Baron Samedi

> Tell me people why does anyone _want_ to go to the moon?  Once you've seen one crater you've seen them all.
> 
> Hey that car is still there!



no stars

----------


## Caden

> no stars



Yes this is a common photographic problem of contrasting very bright to very dim light.  The example here shows how the building is black out by the brightness of the clouds above.  We all know the building is there even though we can't see it.  The light of stars is very dim that's why you have to get out of the city if you want to see more than maybe 3 of the brightest of them.  And remember the light on the moon is insainly bright, there is no atmosphere to lessen it.  Facing into the sun temperatures could easily go beyond 300 degrees Fahrenheit, just imagine how bright that is!  Then realize how white everything on the moon is and you can see those dim little star lights never had a chance.




Here's another example.

----------


## Osmodin

Tonight i am gonna try to go to the moon. I will do it if i get lucid i dont think porting is all that hard.

----------


## Caden

> Tonight i am gonna try to go to the moon. I will do it if i get lucid i dont think porting is all that hard.



Best of luck and tell us what you saw!

----------


## WhatIsX

LOL, wyrms, urth (cause spelling it differently makes it mystical), gawn and nevergawn? This site is about lucid dreaming, a reasonably well documented, factual process. If you want to write sci-fi, then do so, but don't act like it's real.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> LOL, wyrms, urth (cause spelling it differently makes it mystical), gawn and nevergawn? This site is about lucid dreaming, a reasonably well documented, factual process. If you want to write sci-fi, then do so, but don't act like it's real.



Of course it's not real! It's about dreams. HAHA

----------


## Waterknight

Are you saying that your ideas are not real for everyone only you? If that is the case then i no longer think of you as crazy. If you claim that it is true for everyone then youre either insane or God.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> Are you saying that your ideas are not real for everyone only you? If that is the case then i no longer think of you as crazy. If you claim that it is true for everyone then youre either insane or God.



Whether I am sane or not is irrelevant. Is it hard to get to the Moon?  If yes, I could be right. If no, then go there yourself and prove it. This is the topic of this thread.

----------


## stprue

> Are you saying that your ideas are not real for everyone only you? If that is the case then i no longer think of you as crazy. If you claim that it is true for everyone then youre either insane or God.



Everyone of us has a different perspective, life experiences, situations, culture, etc. What is real and true for you or him is or may not be real or true for anyone else.  In an altered state of consciousness there are many things that can be far fetched, partial, half, fully real.  WN is not insane he is on a quest of self discovery as all of us should be.   What he is doing (successfully)  is documenting his experiences and helping others.  Remember, one must keep an open mind to develop spiritually.

 :smiley:

----------


## Waterknight

> Everyone of us has a different perspective, life experiences, situations, culture, etc. What is real and true for you or him is or may not be real or true for anyone else.  In an altered state of consciousness there are many things that can be far fetched, partial, half, fully real.  WN is not insane he is on a quest of self discovery as all of us should be.   What he is doing (successfully)  is documenting his experiences and helping others.  Remember, one must keep an open mind to develop spiritually.



Which is really what I meant by he would be crazy if he called these Ideas true for everyone. Dont get me wrong I have a lot of respect for Nomad its just that when I read some of his stuff he seems to put out radical ideas and states them as facts that are universally true. My dreams include an entirely different mythology that I hold true for myself but not for anyone else. 

What I am saying is that I BELIEVE that there is no universal laws when it comes to dreaming. What is true for him is not always true for me or for you.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> Which is really what I meant by he would be crazy if he called these Ideas true for everyone. Dont get me wrong I have a lot of respect for Nomad its just that when I read some of his stuff he seems to put out radical ideas and states them as facts that are universally true. My dreams include an entirely different mythology that I hold true for myself but not for anyone else. 
> 
> What I am saying is that I BELIEVE that there is no universal laws when it comes to dreaming. What is true for him is not always true for me or for you.



There are definitely universal laws for dreaming. If not, then none of the tutorials on this site would work.

----------


## Waterknight

point taken.

----------


## charlieboy24

why not make the moon come to you? :smiley:

----------


## Marm

I've explored a wormhole once. I went through a tunnel burrowed through by a giant earthworm.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> why not make the moon come to you?



Go for it!





> I've explored a wormhole once. I went through a tunnel burrowed through by a giant earthworm.



Tell us more.

----------


## Marm

> Tell us more.



I walked into a network of "wormholes" in the ground burrowed by this enormous earthworm; I'd say it was the size of a whale. When I got into the central chamber of the entire network it was like a re-enactment of the Basilisk scene in Harry Potter Chamber of Secrets. Simply replace the Basilisk with this worm and Harry Potter and me. I'll let you figure the rest out.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> I walked into a network of "wormholes" in the ground burrowed by this enormous earthworm; I'd say it was the size of a whale. When I got into the central chamber of the entire network it was like a re-enactment of the Basilisk scene in Harry Potter Chamber of Secrets. Simply replace the Basilisk with this worm and Harry Potter and me. I'll let you figure the rest out.



That's cool! I have never seen that movie. 

But, I have been in an underground network of tunnels between here and Hollow Earth called The Labyrinthe.

----------


## Caden

I think one reason no one is going to the moon is because there are no attractive reasons to go there.  Basic exploration doesn't seem to thrill peoples subconscious at all.  The moon or any place is only really attractive to us unless there is something happening there.  endless expanses of white dust doesn't attract the subconscious especially when compared to situations with people.  It's like a having a TV show, you can't show 30 minutes of wondering around white dust, it's mindbogglingly mind numbing.  Just a simple conversation is tons more interesting.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> I think one reason no one is going to the moon is because there are no attractive reasons to go there.  Basic exploration doesn't seem to thrill peoples subconscious at all.  The moon or any place is only really attractive to us unless there is something happening there.  endless expanses of white dust doesn't attract the subconscious especially when compared to situations with people.  It's like a having a TV show, you can't show 30 minutes of wondering around white dust, it's mindbogglingly mind numbing.  Just a simple conversation is tons more interesting.



People are going to the moon. This thread is about why it's hard to get to the Moon in spite of people trying hard to get there.

----------


## Caden

> People are going to the moon. This thread is about why it's hard to get to the Moon in spite of people trying hard to get there.



I meant the rhetorical "no one", sure people are getting there.

----------


## Baron Samedi

I went to the Moon last night with Raven and Keiko. it was epic.

----------


## Atras

The first time I tried to get to the moon, I succeeded.

----------


## Waterknight

Ive been to the moon several times in the past but I still havent been to your moon. When I have gone there is only this one small scinetific base that isnt even permanently inhabited. From what I understand of your visits to the moon it has become an entire civilization (am I wrong on that?) Do you think maybe I have been to the same moon just in a different time???

----------


## Baron Samedi

> Ive been to the moon several times in the past but I still havent been to your moon. When I have gone there is only this one small scinetific base that isnt even permanently inhabited. From what I understand of your visits to the moon it has become an entire civilization (am I wrong on that?) Do you think maybe I have been to the same moon just in a different time???



What was your goal when you went to the Moon?

----------


## Waterknight

the first time it was just to go to the moon. All the times afterwards was for solitude.

----------


## Reamous

It's funny that the night after reading this, I dream I am on the moon. 

My dad bought a top secret company somehow, and they exposed secrets to the moon. Apparently the moon has an atmosphere, trees, and natural life on it. Who knew? My dad and I took a spaceship and flew to the moon (though it happened quickly, like a five minute trip) and landed on its surface. We needed no helmets, because the moon had Oxygen. After getting out onto the moon, some trees moved ahead. Suddenly a green dinosaur emerged, looking like the Rhino thing on Avatar. It charged toward us so we got in a moon-car and held on. We flew through the sky and drifted back down.

I was never lucid.  :Sad:  But technically I flew to the moon.  ::D:

----------


## Baron Samedi

> the first time it was just to go to the moon. All the times afterwards was for solitude.



That's cool. When we first started building on the Moon, it was just one tower. But, you may have been to another part of the moon. 





> It's funny that the night after reading this, I dream I am on the moon. 
> 
> My dad bought a top secret company somehow, and they exposed secrets to the moon. Apparently the moon has an atmosphere, trees, and natural life on it. Who knew? My dad and I took a spaceship and flew to the moon (though it happened quickly, like a five minute trip) and landed on its surface. We needed no helmets, because the moon had Oxygen. After getting out onto the moon, some trees moved ahead. Suddenly a green dinosaur emerged, looking like the Rhino thing on Avatar. It charged toward us so we got in a moon-car and held on. We flew through the sky and drifted back down.
> 
> I was never lucid.  But technically I flew to the moon.



Wow, that's awesome! You went to the Green Moon which we terraformed, in other words covered with plants, and bursting with life. We have had many dreams of this Green Moon. Amazing!

----------


## Waterknight

Well When i have been it wasnt so much as a tower on the moon. It did go up a few stories but the majority of the lab was underground. I havent been in a while I should try to check up on it if I remember in my next lucid. My last lucid dream I had very little control and I wasnt able to fly and didnt even try teleporting.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> It's funny that the night after reading this, I dream I am on the moon. 
> 
> My dad bought a top secret company somehow, and they exposed secrets to the moon. Apparently the moon has an atmosphere, trees, and natural life on it. Who knew? My dad and I took a spaceship and flew to the moon (though it happened quickly, like a five minute trip) and landed on its surface. We needed no helmets, because the moon had Oxygen. After getting out onto the moon, some trees moved ahead. Suddenly a green dinosaur emerged, looking like the Rhino thing on Avatar. It charged toward us so we got in a moon-car and held on. We flew through the sky and drifted back down.
> 
> I was never lucid.  But technically I flew to the moon.







> Well When i have been it wasnt so much as a tower on the moon. It did go up a few stories but the majority of the lab was underground. I havent been in a while I should try to check up on it if I remember in my next lucid. My last lucid dream I had very little control and I wasnt able to fly and didnt even try teleporting.



Please write the dreams in your DJ.

----------


## Rybread34

You're a loony bird.

 ::D:

----------


## Baron Samedi

> You're a loony bird.



Luna is the name of the Moon.

----------


## Waterknight

I think he knows that and was making a pun. I had a dream this morning where I didnt go to the moon but I have the vaguest memory of it being moon related. I cant remember the dream at all though because I was woken up to the sound of my sister talking so Ilost the dream as I woke up due to her loud mouth. Though I think the way it was moon related was the moon gives special power to people..... I cant remember it though.

----------


## avatar0

I actually think I managed to fly to the moon on one of my first lucid dream experiences. I had this dream nearly an year ago, yet I still remember a lot of the details. I was in my appartment on the seventh floor and I jumped out of the balcony to fly (it was probably my first or second time flying).

The moon turned out to be huge, and very near me. It was behind the apartment, and it took me maybe 15 seconds to fly there. It was emitting a lot of light and didn't look very realistic, it was like a huge ball with craters and only 2-3 shades of colour.

Since then, I've had two more dreams of flying in space (the second one being today). The first time, I tried to fly to the moon again, but I couldn't reach it - I kept flying and flying towards it but it was too far away. 

Today, I tried to fly to Venus (I think I read something about the planet on this forum yesterday). Instead of my usual slow speed flying, I was going towards space at supersonic speed, and it was quite scary. For a second I stopped to look around, and I saw many stars around me. They were all burning red, and I got scared that I will burn to death if I continue flying there, so I flew back down.

----------


## Arch

I wonder if it's harder to travel to the moon lucid. Maybe something to do with stability.

----------


## tP97

I was wondering , if anyone reaches the sun, will he burn down his dream body? If the sun destroys the body , will it regen in later dreams? or the person... dies?

Also , are there dream artefacts and stuff in this world?

----------


## shadowofwind

Its only a matter of time before a mod asks you not to respond to old threads and closes some of them, if it hasn't happened already.

----------


## Psionik

Hot, cold... not a problem in LD, AP and similar. The problem is your mind. Your mind will make everything happen... Or your subconscious mind. Remember, your body is somewhere else. Your spirit or soul is indestructible.

----------


## StephL

> Its only a matter of time before a mod asks you not to respond to old threads and closes some of them, if it hasn't happened already.



I wonder - why is that?
Even if the original poster is no longer active - if somebody brings it up - it either gets buried again, when there is nobody else interested - or - it comes back alive - and then - what´s the point of not letting it live on?
Just asking..

----------


## shadowofwind

> I wonder - why is that?



1.  This way it doesn't look like we keep discovering and debating the same things over and over again, like one of those sci-fi stories where every morning you wake up and its the same day again.
2.  Mods need to control stuff, that's a major reason people become mods.  (Sorry but its true!)
3.  Threads can get very long, requiring people to click on the last page to view the most recent post.  Depending on how this is implemented, maybe it could increase the demands on the hosting server.
4.  Despite the repetitive nature of our discussions, things do change.  The culture here was different three years ago.  Some things about that culture were unhealthy in my opinion.  Mental and moral hygiene requires self-doubt, but doubt also interferes with intuition and strong expression of psychic power.  Also, when doing things like dream sharing, its possible for unhealthily manipulative and controlling dynamics to develop.  Maybe sometimes its better to let the past fade.

That's my opinion anyway.

By the way, though this is only somewhat related....The search capability of the site works in only a very haphazard way.  Sometimes it will turn up stuff, sometimes it won't, even if you look for keywords that were used in relatively recent posts.  This must be a problem with the implementation.

----------


## floatinghead

I agree with pretty much everything you've said above shadowofwind, just the fact that there exists a thread dedicated to reasons why it is difficult to get to the moon would, in my opinion, create barriers and doubt within the dreaming and actually contribute in creating difficulty travelling to the moon.

However, past and present experiences have let me seen the subject differently now. For example, when I originally tried to travel to the (Nomad's) moon - I flew up into the sky and was stopped by another earth floating right above this earth.

The second time I tried I wanted to travel to 'a' moon in order to meet my daughter - we both reported going to a moon, but both of our moon descriptions were vastly different - so we came to the conclusion that we were travelling to different places.

Recently I have been reading to my daughter Raven and Nomad's shared dreaming diary and she decided that she wanted to go to the moon. So without any preconceptions of any difficulty involved in getting to the moon (via this thread and others reports) , and keeping in mind that she is an experienced lucid dreamer and does not have any trouble going wherever she wants - she flew up to the (Nomad's) moon and found herself being shot back down to our dream base.

So it seems that there is a real barrier here

----------


## Psionik

> I agree with pretty much everything you've said above shadowofwind, just the fact that there exists a thread dedicated to reasons why it is difficult to get to the moon would, in my opinion, create barriers and doubt within the dreaming and actually contribute in creating difficulty travelling to the moon.
> 
> However, past and present experiences have let me seen the subject differently now. For example, when I originally tried to travel to the (Nomad's) moon - I flew up into the sky and was stopped by another earth floating right above this earth.
> 
> The second time I tried I wanted to travel to 'a' moon in order to meet my daughter - we both reported going to a moon, but both of our moon descriptions were vastly different - so we came to the conclusion that we were travelling to different places.
> 
> Recently I have been reading to my daughter Raven and Nomad's shared dreaming diary and she decided that she wanted to go to the moon. So without any preconceptions of any difficulty involved in getting to the moon (via this thread and others reports) , and keeping in mind that she is an experienced lucid dreamer and does not have any trouble going wherever she wants - she flew up to the (Nomad's) moon and found herself being shot back down to our dream base.
> 
> So it seems that there is a real barrier here



I recommend to take picture or short film of some Apollo landing site and you both concentrate on it. Then you go and dream yourself there. Maybe the same surrounding could provoke the same experience. 
I was on moon by astral projection once. It wasn't so interesting for me, rocks and dust... nobody there. Stillness. 
I looked on moon second time as I flew somewhere very far in our galaxy, other habitable planet(but not inhabitated). Moon was barren again- no sign of Raven or Nomad or Q... 
I went once extragalactic... to go as far as possible... with short stop on barren Mars.  But that was an astral projection, not LD.

----------


## floatinghead

Thanks buddy!

I think you missed my point though  :smiley: 

Both me and my daughter were able to go onto A moon, when not focusing on nomad's moon. Where I suspect we were going on these instances is our own personal moons (if you follow the line of thinking that we each have a personal space within us before reaching out into a broader dreaming) The problem only arose when we used NOMAD'S moon as the target. It is his SPECIFIC moon that is difficult to get to! (which would explain why you could not perceive his moon base as you were accessing your own version of the moon - which is the same symbolically and location wise just within a different subset dimension)

----------


## StephL

> 1.  This way it doesn't look like we keep discovering and debating the same things over and over again, like one of those sci-fi stories where every morning you wake up and its the same day again.
> 2.  Mods need to control stuff, that's a major reason people become mods.  (Sorry but its true!)
> 3.  Threads can get very long, requiring people to click on the last page to view the most recent post.  Depending on how this is implemented, maybe it could increase the demands on the hosting server.
> 4.  Despite the repetitive nature of our discussions, things do change.  The culture here was different three years ago.  Some things about that culture were unhealthy in my opinion.  Mental and moral hygiene requires self-doubt, but doubt also interferes with intuition and strong expression of psychic power.  Also, when doing things like dream sharing, its possible for unhealthily manipulative and controlling dynamics to develop.  Maybe sometimes its better to let the past fade.
> 
> That's my opinion anyway.
> 
> By the way, though this is only somewhat related....The search capability of the site works in only a very haphazard way.  Sometimes it will turn up stuff, sometimes it won't, even if you look for keywords that were used in relatively recent posts.  This must be a problem with the implementation.



Right - thank you! 
I thought - concerning point 1 - it would be better to keep the marmot reappearing in the same place - so all is bundled - but - point 4 makes lots of sense in this context to me - I got a bit shocked by some older things..
And - concerning the search function - I am taking part in a darts-forum and they use the very same forum software - but less well implemented than on here.
The optics made me feel at home quite instantly - but their search function sucks noo end as well - and it´s a much younger place..
Somebody said - to make this better, you had to install something additional - not possible on the basis there is.

Oh yeah - there it makes sense to have the marmot reappearing in the same place - like better have one thread where people explain, how great or crap they find a certain type of dart - so somebody looking for the info will not have to read through 20 threads on the same piece of Tungsten..
Doesn´t work of course.. 20 is almost good..
This here is vastly different!

----------


## Psionik

> Thanks buddy!
> 
> I think you missed my point though 
> 
> Both me and my daughter were able to go onto A moon, when not focusing on nomad's moon. Where I suspect we were going on these instances is our own personal moons (if you follow the line of thinking that we each have a personal space within us before reaching out into a broader dreaming) The problem only arose when we used NOMAD'S moon as the target. It is his SPECIFIC moon that is difficult to get to! (which would explain why you could not perceive his moon base as you were accessing your own version of the moon - which is the same symbolically and location wise just within a different subset dimension)



Ok, maybe I missed it.  :smiley:  I thought, I should be at least find something unusual on the moon. Nomad and coll. created something on the moon, some thought construction. I should be able to detect it from astral... Nothing. Either I'm noob traveler(and I have that feeling even after nearly 30 years of experience) or their construct is too weak... Or I simply can't detect something like that from astral dimension... I need to try to LD to the moon. Priorities  :smiley:  My priority lies elsewhere.
Do you thing they created whole new moon? They should see two moons then (on the orbit of earth).

----------


## floatinghead

If you were able to access the real moon, like literally travel while in an OBE state onto the moon I believe that you would perceive the moon pretty much how it really is (with a sprinkle of of your own thought forms as that is something we always carry around with us) 

But I believe you went to the astral/dream version of the moon, which I think would be your OWN moon. 

Imagine like this: we are all playing this video game, each of us has the same basic structure in our individual video game which would consist of earth, sun, ground, sea, capital cities, moon and stars etc. However, that is pretty much where the similarities end, as this is just the basic package of the game - in each of our games we have customized it so that it is filled with mostly our own stuff, our own (dream) cities,  characters and scenarios. You go to your moon (which you haven't done anything to yet) and it is blank - makes sense. 

This computer game has the potential to connect to the 'internet' as a massive online muliplayer (shared consciousness) but most of us do not realize this and keep the 'internet' switched off. Only until we understand that we need to go to visit another persons computer game world do we really go anywhere else. (like in the minecraft game) Sometimes it takes a while to form a solid 'connection' with another user, but over time, if persistent, the connection should get stronger.

 Next time you project aim to visit Nomad's world, HIS moon, then I think you will see something different!

----------


## Sageous

*Floatinghead:*





> Both me and my daughter were able to go onto A moon, when not focusing on nomad's moon. Where I suspect we were going on these instances is our own personal moons (if you follow the line of thinking that we each have a personal space within us before reaching out into a broader dreaming) The problem only arose when we used NOMAD'S moon as the target. It is his SPECIFIC moon that is difficult to get to! (which would explain why you could not perceive his moon base as you were accessing your own version of the moon - which is the same symbolically and location wise just within a different subset dimension)



Excellent point... would that WakingNomad were still around to address it (or at least read it; he didn't address much when he _was_ here).





> Imagine like this: we are all playing this video game, each of us has the same basic structure in our individual video game which would consist of earth, sun, ground, sea, capital cities, moon and stars etc. However, that is pretty much where the similarities end, as this is just the basic package of the game - in each of our games we have customized it so that it is filled with mostly our own stuff, our own (dream) cities, characters and scenarios. You go to your moon (which you haven't done anything to yet) and it is blank - makes sense.
> 
> This computer game has the potential to connect to the 'internet' as a massive online muliplayer (shared consciousness) but most of us do not realize this and keep the 'internet' switched off. Only until we understand that we need to go to visit another persons computer game world do we really go anywhere else. (like in the minecraft game) Sometimes it takes a while to form a solid 'connection' with another user, but over time, if persistent, the connection should get stronger.



More good stuff here, but you may have left out one bit:  Not only is only the basic structure shared (and keep in mind that individual perceptions of basic structures -- even something as iconic as the moon -- can vary wildly), but that astral internet you mention lacks an interface.

In other words, yes, our thoughts might all be swimming around in the same aetheric ocean, but they are all doing different strokes. As individuals, we each form our thoughts independently and in a unique fashion, using a "program code" unlike any other, if I might do a little metaphor-mixing. So if someone senses those thoughts, there's an excellent chance that they'll be unable to translate the code of the thought form they perceived.  As you note, it would be helpful to share dreams with someone you love, or better yet, someone you love and to whom you are related, as this might dramatically improve the chances of recognition thanks to a greater possibility of similar code.

On top of that, and to continue the metaphor, the astral internet also lacks _routers_:  Okay, I'll concede that we can project our dreams in thought-form packets, but how do those packets find their targets?  

Is it that we are projecting our dreams to everyone at once (like a radio broadcast) and only people who care pick up the signal?  Maybe.  But that would make the astral internet an almost overwhelmingly busy, noisy, place, I think. Just as the earthly internet must have a system to organize, filter, sort, and direct the billions of bits of information that otherwise would be just randomly thrown out there, never to be seen again, I think there must be some sort of router system for a dream-sharing internet. And if there is, how do I get an Astral IP address?

On that note, I think WakingNomad's several threads like this were his attempt to define routers -- that moon of his might have been necessary, because he was seeking to define a thought-form node, or beacon, to which dreamers could navigate in their dream-sharing attempts.  So, in light of this thread, *Psionlink's* concern seems valid, if not right on the mark.

----------


## tP97

> On top of that, and to continue the metaphor, the astral internet also lacks routers: Okay, I'll concede that we can project our dreams in thought-form packets, but how do those packets find their targets? 
> 
> Is it that we are projecting our dreams to everyone at once (like a radio broadcast) and only people who care pick up the signal? Maybe. But that would make the astral internet an almost overwhelmingly busy, noisy, place, I think. Just as the earthly internet must have a system to organize, filter, sort, and direct the billions of bits of information that otherwise would be just randomly thrown out there, never to be seen again, I think there must be some sort of router system for a dream-sharing internet. And if there is, how do I get an Astral IP address?
> 
> On that note, I think WakingNomad's several threads like this were his attempt to define routers -- that moon of his might have been necessary, because he was seeking to define a thought-form node, or beacon, to which dreamers could navigate in their dream-sharing attempts. So, in light of this thread, Psionlink's concern seems valid, if not right on the mark.



Imagine it like a minecraft world with random spawn points , infinite world space and then few mods which allow teleporting and stuff. Now plant this image to that of an infinite space with random spawn points and creation at power of thought. I havn't SD'd consciously but I think this would describe it accuratly?

----------


## floatinghead

> So if someone senses those thoughts, there's an excellent chance that they'll be unable to translate the code of the thought form they perceived. As you note, it would be helpful to share dreams with someone you love, or better yet, someone you love and to whom you are related, as this might dramatically improve the chances of recognition thanks to a greater possibility of similar code.



Good point! The way we each perceive things are completely different to one another - so viewing the same thing could amount to two very different visual descriptions of the event as often crops up within Nomad's shared dreaming diary in comparison to Raven's. I also agree that there exists something special between Raven and Nomad where by, for the majority of us, we cannot just 'connect' to a random person on the internet without first trying to connect to them in waking reality first: we need to build up somekind of relationship first.

A way around our different program codes/understanding of the visual language which I have been trying out - is to have an agreed place to meet within the dreaming. You see I made the same mistake at first when trying to share a dream and agreed to meet at 'the moon', but discovered after that me and my daughter were just visiting our own moon but not the SAME moon. So to counter this I took a real place in real life and cultivated it within our minds -a special tree which we often go to. To help define this place as the SAME place we were building within our minds we each made sure we are perceiving - emotionally, the tree and space around it in the same way. shortly before our first dream share at this tree we found a young bird who had landed outside of our house, he had been attacked by a cat. Unable to fly he died that evening. The next day we decided to bury it at our 'magic' tree and that following night we both dreamed of meeting at the tree (lucidly) and the bird (being the element which brought us together emotionally) appeared around my daughter and flew around her (which we both remembered and perceived.

So my point is, if you can agree on the ground rules on what the place is you plan to meet, and then plan the next few excursions within the dreaming to make sure you will mutually be perceiving the same thing then you can successfully line up your individual 'program codes' so that they are in sync with one another. It's like turning the dial to find an am radio station - at first the signal may be weak and you only get parts of the radio program, but the more you tune in the better you get at finding that sweet spot!





> On top of that, and to continue the metaphor, the astral internet also lacks routers: Okay, I'll concede that we can project our dreams in thought-form packets, but how do those packets find their targets?



I don't think we need a router per se. Creating a portal pretty much does the same thing as a router - but again, a portal only appears that way because of perception - as long as a persons intent is strong  enough I believe they will be able to travel to the correct destination. 





> Is it that we are projecting our dreams to everyone at once (like a radio broadcast) and only people who care pick up the signal? Maybe. But that would make the astral internet an almost overwhelmingly busy, noisy, place, I think. Just as the earthly internet must have a system to organize, filter, sort, and direct the billions of bits of information that otherwise would be just randomly thrown out there, never to be seen again, I think there must be some sort of router system for a dream-sharing internet. And if there is, how do I get an Astral IP address?



I think you are right on the ball here - I think allot of our dreams are a mixture of our own thoughts and other peoples thoughts leaking through - generally speaking though I do think we have somekind of (two way) 'firewall' in place for each of us - which allows us to both be protected from others dreams and also keeps us within our own dream space. For myself, when I first started to explore 'outside' my own dream area I came across quite a few barriers before I was able to move around unhindered. (I would be interested to hear if this is a common thing or not) 





> On that note, I think WakingNomad's several threads like this were his attempt to define routers -- that moon of his might have been necessary, because he was seeking to define a thought-form node, or beacon, to which dreamers could navigate in their dream-sharing attempts. So, in light of this thread, Psionlink's concern seems valid, if not right on the mark.



I completely agree

----------


## tP97

> Good point! The way we each perceive things are completely different to one another - so viewing the same thing could amount to two very different visual descriptions of the event as often crops up within Nomad's shared dreaming diary in comparison to Raven's. I also agree that there exists something special between Raven and Nomad where by, for the majority of us, we cannot just 'connect' to a random person on the internet without first trying to connect to them in waking reality first: we need to build up somekind of relationship first.



Well we can, we just need to look a person nearby just like we do on websites like omegle and stuff .

----------


## StephL

> Excellent point... would that WakingNomad were still around to address it (or at least read it; he didn't address much when he _was_ here).
> 
> More good stuff here, but you may have left out one bit:  Not only is only the basic structure shared (and keep in mind that individual perceptions of basic structures -- even something as iconic as the moon -- can vary wildly), but that astral internet you mention lacks an interface.
> 
> In other words, yes, our thoughts might all be swimming around in the same aetheric ocean, but they are all doing different strokes. As individuals, we each form our thoughts independently and in a unique fashion, using a "program code" unlike any other, if I might do a little metaphor-mixing. So if someone senses those thoughts, there's an excellent chance that they'll be unable to translate the code of the thought form they perceived.  As you note, it would be helpful to share dreams with someone you love, or better yet, someone you love and to whom you are related, as this might dramatically improve the chances of recognition thanks to a greater possibility of similar code.
> 
> On top of that, and to continue the metaphor, the astral internet also lacks _routers_:  Okay, I'll concede that we can project our dreams in thought-form packets, but how do those packets find their targets?  
> 
> Is it that we are projecting our dreams to everyone at once (like a radio broadcast) and only people who care pick up the signal?  Maybe.  But that would make the astral internet an almost overwhelmingly busy, noisy, place, I think. Just as the earthly internet must have a system to organize, filter, sort, and direct the billions of bits of information that otherwise would be just randomly thrown out there, never to be seen again, I think there must be some sort of router system for a dream-sharing internet. And if there is, how do I get an Astral IP address?
> ...



It is nothing new, that I personally very much doubt, dream-sharing is possible..
But Sageous - I enjoyed reading your take on it in this post - loving the internet of the minds metaphor.





> Good point! The way we each perceive things are completely different to one another - so viewing the same thing could amount to two very different visual descriptions of the event as often crops up within Nomad's shared dreaming diary in comparison to Raven's. I also agree that there exists something special between Raven and Nomad where by, for the majority of us, we cannot just 'connect' to a random person on the internet without first trying to connect to them in waking reality first: we need to build up somekind of relationship first.
> 
> A way around our different program codes/understanding of the visual language which I have been trying out - is to have an agreed place to meet within the dreaming. You see I made the same mistake at first when trying to share a dream and agreed to meet at 'the moon', but discovered after that me and my daughter were just visiting our own moon but not the SAME moon. So to counter this I took a real place in real life and cultivated it within our minds -a special tree which we often go to. To help define this place as the SAME place we were building within our minds we each made sure we are perceiving - emotionally, the tree and space around it in the same way. shortly before our first dream share at this tree we found a young bird who had landed outside of our house, he had been attacked by a cat. Unable to fly he died that evening. The next day we decided to bury it at our 'magic' tree and that following night we both dreamed of meeting at the tree (lucidly) and the bird (being the element which brought us together emotionally) appeared around my daughter and flew around her (which we both remembered and perceived.
> 
> So my point is, if you can agree on the ground rules on what the place is you plan to meet, and then plan the next few excursions within the dreaming to make sure you will mutually be perceiving the same thing then you can successfully line up your individual 'program codes' so that they are in sync with one another. It's like turning the dial to find an am radio station - at first the signal may be weak and you only get parts of the radio program, but the more you tune in the better you get at finding that sweet spot!
> 
> I don't think we need a router per se. Creating a portal pretty much does the same thing as a router - but again, a portal only appears that way because of perception - as long as a persons intent is strong  enough I believe they will be able to travel to the correct destination. 
> 
> I think you are right on the ball here - I think allot of our dreams are a mixture of our own thoughts and other peoples thoughts leaking through - generally speaking though I do think we have somekind of (two way) 'firewall' in place for each of us - which allows us to both be protected from others dreams and also keeps us within our own dream space. For myself, when I first started to explore 'outside' my own dream area I came across quite a few barriers before I was able to move around unhindered. (I would be interested to hear if this is a common thing or not) 
> ..



I admire your determination and also this sort of building of a relation to your daughter floatinghead!

What I just can´t wrap my mind around, is why you assume the much more complicated theory to understand, what is happening.
Without a compelling need to jump over Occams Razor as I interpret it.
What would make me want to jump it?

Well - something like you two meeting at your tree and both - out of nowhere - not talking about birds or death at all before - would dream of a bird dying in your both´s dream - and both burying it together - and waking up and find this out.

I still would need much more to jump - like this happening over and over - to dismiss the much more probable concept of you two being so close, that you know, how you feel and think, and what is on your minds - and psychologically tuning in to each other´s metaphors.

Which you then take with you into your dreams - synchronicity of an extent like I described above would - at least if isolated - fall into this category as a first hypothesis always for me.

Something good I find - I feel you do not have a cemented theory about it involving bending existing concepts of science or fixed religious notions to have a ready-made scheme for these assumptions.

But all the more, I can´t help to - first of all emotionally fully understand the following - I felt this myself when I was younger - can´t help to assume, the sharing aspect has some value of it´s own for you - sort of making the wonderful reality, as I see it, even more wonderful like this.
Like "I Want To Believe" -_ because it would be so nice_.

Don´t get me wrong - I really like you and reading you - just I wonder, if not somewhere hidden in the back of your mind there might be some doubt along the lines I argued this above..?

If so - do you try to - for the sake of insight and experimentation - look at it all from this psychological real-life wave-length tuning point of view sometimes - and also talk to your daughter about it? How old is she by the way?

Meaning to assume - really try to actually falsify your concept - that you might _always be individually visiting your own tree or moon alone_ - but being so tuned to each other, that they can both be made to almost look and feel the same?

Please do not feel criticised by this - oh well - as I think you are - I don´t think you will.




Good that WakingNomad is not around any more as you say Sageous - I think, I would indeed try to get at him and criticize him a lot!!!
Some of his posts I judge as right out dangerous and so very misleading, that there is no comparison to the fact that many are on the lookout to reach SP.




I really agree to what shadowofwind had as a concern under point 4 - but here we are and with a good discussion I find.
But the stuff that brought this thread up, really needs addressing, I find:
I did not comment on the post of the "thread-resurrector" at all - but here we go tP97:





> I was wondering , if anyone reaches the sun, will he burn down his dream body? *If the sun destroys the body , will it regenerate in later dreams? or the person... dies?*
> 
> Also , are there dream artefacts and stuff in this world?



No tP97 - I am more than just theorizing, when I say I am convinced, that the dream-world is in your head - it is not dangerous for your real body to burn down your dream body at all - neither it is to your dream-body - if you do not wake up from the experience, you will be able to build a new one in the same dream - but surely you will have one in the next dream!!
Please do not believe this stuff!
Rather look at this: Dream Control And Stabilization
And happy fearless and unconstrained dreaming!
smile.png

If people read stuff like the OP - I am really worried for the following to occur:

a) Them not learning to LD with real dream control and fearless
b) Them right out being scared away from it
c) Them not building up a sensible attitude towards life in general - especially when they are still kids - age-entry-baseline being 13 on here



Edit: Oh yeah - some really important afterthought - if I would not have wanted to believe so much - I would have stopped having (at least semi-lucids) as a child as I did - and that would have been it.
Like it was - I read Castaneda with true conviction - and thus came back to it.
I can actually only be very thankful for this, if I am honest.
But then - I hope one day it will be "normal" in as far, as you could get access easily from - maybe school even - or be directed to a place like this here, which has all the full spectrum to choose your world-understanding from!

----------


## floatinghead

Stephl - you put everything so eloquently that it is impossible to get offended  :smiley: 

You are 100% right about me wanting to believe (like Mulder) it does make for a wonderful world where we can share our dreams together, but I also understand needing to be reserved and not have my mind made up with any fixed belief in either religion or science. All I can do is measure my own experiences, along with other peoples testimonies  and to try and formulate a working hypothesis for what is being experienced. In my mind, I feel I am making some valuable discoveries - but of course, when it comes to dreams we can never be 100% certain what we are experiencing is real or false. What science has told us thus far, what it has proven is that it is simply a series chemicals and electric impulses which moves us - but science is always moving forward - always discovering new things - and so far with the hinted at hidden world within the string theory universe, along with relatively recent discoveries with quantum mechanics  - we only know that the universe is allot more unpredictable and strange than we first perceived. It is at this point, without having the full amount of information in front of us, that we need to make our own decision on what it is we are and experiencing. 

Science has not discovered everything (yet), and religion disagrees with itself (if religion is looked upon as a single entity like science often is) so how we perceive this (limited) information is really here nor there since none of us can really know for certain

The reason why I look into dreams for the answer is because I want to believe, but I do not let this shadow my theories and experiences - I try to judge each experience fairly and objectively. I agree with you that my experiences MAY be a product of coincidence and wishful thinking, but there are enough variables in place to keep me believing and continuing in my 'research' which will increase as I progress (I hope) 

Reading the shared journals of Nomad and Raven, and speaking to Raven extensively about her own experiences with shared dreaming has led me to believe (though not completely of course) that their experiences are beyond a doubt authentic, and simply put - if they can do it - so can we! (have you read their diary yet? What do you think of it?)

My daughter is 8 by the way  :smiley:

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## floatinghead

I wanted to also pick up on your point regarding not influencing kids at an early age. Consider this - if this stuff is real the.n . For the last few hundred years we ve betellg our kids that it is not possible, limiting there potential completly.
Also consider that we have been telling our children about a man who visits them once a year and rides around on a magical sleigh and who happens to be friends with a giant rabbit, (or giant bells if you live in France)

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## StephL

You are just as eloquent and your points are all valid!
I actually think - being an agnostic is the most sensible stance in it all.
Like I said - it could well be one day in the future I jump said razor myself!






> I wanted to also pick up on your point regarding not influencing kids at an early age. Consider this - if this stuff is real the.n . For the last few hundred years we ve betellg our kids that it is not possible, limiting there potential completly.
> Also consider that we have been telling our children about a man who visits them once a year and rides around on a magical sleigh and who happens to be friends with a giant rabbit, (or giant bells if you live in France)



No - I actually did not mean you - what I read is not at all sounding dangerous to me - and as you say - almost every kid is - even if parents are not believing it themselves - brought up to a belief system, and mostly much more harmful than this could ever be, what you are doing.
The Catholic Church with instilling the notion we are all born sinners and it´s anti-life propaganda (I know, I know - they use this the other way round when it comes to birth control - no - I mean damning sexuality like they do..) comes to mind foremost.
No - Santa is okay and so is this sort of really great bonding that seems to be going on with your daughter.

What I meant was more WN, who on several occasions seemingly hems in people in their freedom with proclaiming dreams - and actual reality too - being full of threatening beings of such a bizarre mixture - basically everything thought up ever on that account being out to get you - seems dangerous to me.
Like the post of tP97, who seemingly took this thread as a hint at being in mortal danger in his or her dreams.
This simply can´t be good.

If it´s the birth-date - that would be 16 years - not a kid any more - but in my view also not at an age, where there has been enough of a level-headed world-view stabilized in most - me definitively included - and into my early 20s neither, to be honest.

I will check out the diary - but my suspicion goes that he has a very charismatic grasp on influencing other people - to what end I have not yet an opinion.
But I came about multiple contradictions in his posts already.
If I feel like it, I might hunt them down in this thread and other posts I read.
Good question why I read them - bit of an attitude of sensation seeking to shake my head, if I am honest, and a bit of a drive to try and put up a counter-weight.

Good example is him posing, it would be difficult to fly to the moon, because of the poor wyrms and their holes being hurt by "Evil Force" and thus not passable*.
Does that not strike as trying to hold others away from gaining true dream-control - scaring people - possibly to heighten a sense of self-importance?

Right - shutting up now about him, before I really put myself into the picture - I might be doing him an injustice by suspecting malicious motives.
But I might also decide to use my time differently.


Really - you are one of the very few open-minded believers - of which here seem to be over-proportionally many - this I honestly find great!
I try to be an open-minded agnostic - but got to admit I lean towards what is termed atheistic.

*Edit: might have to read through it all once more not to misinterpret something here - but that was the gist, I got.

----------


## Psionik

I will say for myself, I'm quite skeptic about this stuff too. But that is not stopping me to try it again and again. I will be skeptic only till I will have MY conclusive positive results. And when I'm concentrating for LD or AP I erase all skeptic thought. Only being now and here and objective remains.

I read some of raven and nomad experiences... they are little hard to be understand... But my own experiences are not better written down, so it doesn't matter. Also, I don't write dream journal. I can recall dream vividly, if it has some importance for me. And lucid dreams are hard to forget. I tried a few times to start write, but I ended a few days after start again.

----------


## floatinghead

I have a feeling I am not the only one who 'wants to believe' otherwise you would not frequent the 'weird' area of DV  ::D: 

I was thinking about what you said about occam's razor - I actually think the simplest explanation also lies with what your personal belief system is (and science is still a belief system to a point) Would it really be the simplest explanation to say that two people having the same dream is merely a coincidence when the odds of this happening would be staggering?

Another interesting point is that 1 in 1000 claims to have had a shared dream at some point. That is a pretty big number! 

Anyway, regarding Nomad - I think you have him a little wrong. He LIKES to see himself as somekind of Castaneda - but in reality he is a geek with a passion (just like any other geek!) 

Here's the thing: Imagine you discover the earth is round, and you KNOW it without a shadow of a doubt - you try and tell people what you have discovered, what you have seen with your own eyes and you even had someone there with you to back this claim up - can you imagine how frustrating it would be for people just to shrug and keep walking? NOT to believe you? This is the reason why he is so determined here. Raven on the other hand, she does not feel the need to try and convince people, she knows it is true and that is good enough for her.

Nomad may come across as somekind of advanced dreamer (which he is by all accounts) but Raven has always been the more advanced dreamer, and she is easier to understand than Nomad. Nomad talks primarily in symbolism, he explains to us what HE has perceived but admits that is only his perception - the whole wyrm story IS true I am sure, but it does not mean that it happened this way, it is just the way it was explained to him. Much in the same way that all religions talk about the same thing but are just perceived through a different lens. I believe, at it's core the dreaming is made up of energy -  but the way we interpret this, to understand it is to give it somekind of form, a visual reference that we can understand.

Nomad only posted this thread up about the trouble getting to the moon AFTER he had so many people trying to tell him that they were finding it difficult to get there - and so in order to find out why this was he discovered this explanation.

Before you think I am some kind of blind follower to Nomad I'd also like to point out that I think he can be a bit of an obnoxious dick at times  :smiley: 

Anyway, you really cannot make any kind of true opinion until you have read his shared dreaming diary. It really is something extraordinary and was the very thing that made me consider dreaming in a completely different way. When I first read it I thought it was somekind of joke, then I thought it was a weird story that they created together in order to create a kind of 'fan fiction' that people would read. The more I read, the more I questioned (and hounded Raven Knight for the last few years) the more I realised that this was NOT a joke, this was real. these two people, who had previously never met were having full blown shared dreams and they were reporting the story, what they saw and the very conversations they were having in a dream diary before discussing it with one another - THIS changed everything to me.

Still, I doubted, but - I believed enough to do it myself - and above all - that is the only thing Nomad ever asks of people : to go and try it for ourselves and SEE.

Now imagine, open up your mind, open up your heart and SEE what this could mean. Don't hold back, just imagine if this was possible - are you excited yet? You should be - because, put simply - this is the most amazing thing you would ever get to experience.

----------


## StephL

What I can´t help to wonder - how can you manage to not be afraid of all this, while believing it.

Like - example - when I had my first lucid - I believed in this plane being populated by truly dangerous beings.
And since it felt so real - more than real actually - much more "realistic" - well - I thought it a very sensible decision to get the heck out of there and not ever come back.

Except when I maybe had reached something like true competence as - for lack of a better word - a witch - being able to fight, if necessary.
How can one feel this competence - while not even being sure, if it is all true?

It scared the living daylights out of me from that perspective.
How can you feel safe?

Oh yeah - like I said - I might be unfair in my assumptions indeed - do you have a link to this diary?

----------


## Sageous

*Floatinghead:*

Though I would like very much for WakingNomad and Raven Knight's experience to be true, if only for the many things it would add to the very nature of consciousness and the physical world (i.e., consciousness transcends the body, faster-than-light communication would exist, there is some sort of astral "web" that allows minds to find each other and understand each other, etc.), keep in mind that their story could very easily be faked.  The Internet allows creative people to claim the most amazing things most convincingly, especially when their audience wants to believe what they say.  I'm not saying that Nomad and Raven faked anything, or that they believe anything they've shared to be false at all... how could I know?  What I am saying is that if two people felt like empowering themselves by creating an elaborate hoax on these forums, doing so would not be difficult.

Again, I too want to believe, and have had more than my share of moments that I could and often do chalk up to shared dreaming.  But, as Nomad himself has said, to base your belief in something like this purely on what someone else tells you is a fairly risky business.  Keep in mind that one in a 1,000 people say a lot of things (like there are aliens among us, the rapture is coming, leprechauns and the Starship Enterprise are real, Elvis is alive, Justin Bieber can sing, and so much more); humans are wont to make claims, and claims make for a lousy statistical base. 

Also, for what it's worth, in my opinion there are probably more amazing things to experience than encountering another person in your dreams.  Sorry, not probably, _definitely_.  Don't sell the other stuff short. 

You don't seem the oversensitive type, Floatinghead, but just in case: I am not saying this to piss you off, or even argue with you about shared dreaming (I honestly don't care enough about it to do so -- I have to talk to enough people in waking life, I sort of like to have dream time to myself).  I'm just offering a caveat to you and others here:  If it is real, shared dreaming would _ by its nature_ be a very, very huge thing. Yet to date every ounce of its proof lies solely in what people tell you to accept on faith.  Enjoy the stories, but, until the International Directory of Shared Dreaming is published, with specific log-in instructions, you might do best to rely on your own experience, and judge even that with some skepticism.  

I just thought this needed to be said, especially given the recent revival of two WakingNomad threads. I hope you understand where I'm coming from here.

----------


## Sageous

> What I can´t help to wonder - how can you manage to not be afraid of all this, while believing it.



With two powerful tools: self-awareness, and the confidence that your home base -- your sleeping body -- is safe, sound, and accessible with a thought, no matter how scary the demons are or strange the new planes might be.  In other words, believe in your Self as strongly as the rest of the stuff, and nothing can ever hurt you.

----------


## floatinghead

> *Floatinghead:*
> 
> Though I would like very much for WakingNomad and Raven Knight's experience to be true, if only for the many things it would add to the very nature of consciousness and the physical world (i.e., consciousness transcends the body, faster-than-light communication would exist, there is some sort of astral "web" that allows minds to find each other and understand each other, etc.), keep in mind that their story could very easily be faked.  The Internet allows creative people to claim the most amazing things most convincingly, especially when their audience wants to believe what they say.  I'm not saying that Nomad and Raven faked anything, or that they believe anything they've shared to be false at all... how could I know?  What I am saying is that if two people felt like empowering themselves by creating an elaborate hoax on these forums, doing so would not be difficult.
> 
> Again, I too want to believe, and have had more than my share of moments that I could and often do chalk up to shared dreaming.  But, as Nomad himself has said, to base your belief in something like this purely on what someone else tells you is a fairly risky business.  Keep in mind that one in a 1,000 people say a lot of things (like there are aliens among us, the rapture is coming, leprechauns and the Starship Enterprise are real, Elvis is alive, Justin Bieber can sing, and so much more); humans are wont to make claims, and claims make for a lousy statistical base. 
> 
> Also, for what it's worth, in my opinion there are probably more amazing things to experience than encountering another person in your dreams.  Sorry, not probably, _definitely_.  Don't sell the other stuff short. 
> 
> You don't seem the oversensitive type, Floatinghead, but just in case: I am not saying this to piss you off, or even argue with you about shared dreaming (I honestly don't care enough about it to do so -- I have to talk to enough people in waking life, I sort of like to have dream time to myself).  I'm just offering a caveat to you and others here:  If it is real, shared dreaming would _ by its nature_ be a very, very huge thing. Yet to date every ounce of its proof lies solely in what people tell you to accept on faith.  Enjoy the stories, but, until the International Directory of Shared Dreaming is published, with specific log-in instructions, you might do best to rely on your own experience, and judge even that with some skepticism.  
> ...



I agree with you 100% - everything that you have just said. I was EXTREMELY skeptical at first, and I still am to a certain extent (none of us should believe anything 100%) but talking to these people, to Raven in particular - there are things that are said, things that are known (that are confirmed through personal experience) , you can just tell after a while. But I agree, people in general can be VERY manipulative and cunning to some crazy lengths that you cannot take someones word for it. BUT, through research and communication it was enough for me to CONSIDER this to be a possibility. It was enough for me to research and try this myself. I want to believe.

You see, what you said about 'waiting until the International Directory of Shared Dreaming is published' well that will not happen unless people actually go ahead and make this a more common occurrence.  Lucid dreaming would still be another 'belief' if it wasn't for pioneers like stephen laberge bringing it to the fore front. Now it is a proven concept (although my wife still doesn't even accept THAT as a real thing - lol) It us up to us dreamers to prove this is possible time and time again, only until there is an overwhelming surge of  shared dreaming being documented will science finally take notice and produce this 'directory of shared dreaming' . 

At the moment shared dreaming , like lucid dreaming did before, lies only in the claims of people - but given enough momentum, (if real) it could be easily proven (even easier than lucid dreaming originally was!) 

Also, just so you don't think I am blindly following what others have said  :smiley:  - so far I have had 3 successful shared dreams. In the second dream we both dreamt of (both lucid) meeting at our tree, creating a portal and going to 'cowboy land' in which we both recall shooting our guns and finding that they did not work!

----------


## floatinghead

> What I can´t help to wonder - how can you manage to not be afraid of all this, while believing it.
> 
> Like - example - when I had my first lucid - I believed in this plane being populated by truly dangerous beings.
> And since it felt so real - more than real actually - much more "realistic" - well - I thought it a very sensible decision to get the heck out of there and not ever come back.
> 
> Except when I maybe had reached something like true competence as - for lack of a better word - a witch - being able to fight, if necessary.
> How can one feel this competence - while not even being sure, if it is all true?
> 
> It scared the living daylights out of me from that perspective.
> ...



whether you believe it is happening inside your own head or are facing external forces (which I think ultimately are the same thing) we all need to face our demons, to confront them - whatever they are. If you believe it is happening inside your head - then there is nothing to be afraid of, if you believe that you are facing something else - then you believe in the soul and THAT can never be harmed (only manipulated)

----------


## Sageous

You gave me a couple more thoughts, Floatinghead, that I'll try to keep as short and unobtrusive as possible, because I can already feel WakingNomad's spirit pressure closing in around me...





> You see, what you said about 'waiting until the International Directory of Shared Dreaming is published' well that will not happen unless people actually go ahead and make this a more common occurrence.  Lucid dreaming would still be another 'belief' if it wasn't for pioneers like stephen laberge bringing it to the fore front. Now it is a proven concept (although my wife still doesn't even accept THAT as a real thing - lol) It us up to us dreamers to prove this is possible time and time again, only until there is an overwhelming surge of  shared dreaming being documented will science finally take notice and produce this 'directory of shared dreaming' .



The trouble with this is that lucid dreaming and dream sharing are two very different things, for two very important reasons.  

First, LD'ing does not require new chapters to be written in the physics books.  Yes, LD'ing requires a paradoxical and arguably unnatural act of being awake while you are asleep, but it still works inside your head, and does so without requiring major changes in your physiology.  Shared-dreaming must include things like instant communication without regard for time or space, and a method for forming thoughts whose energy can be transmitted to some other specific place and then be received, downloaded, and understood by the the mind of the recipient, which challenges far more than just physiology.  Also, my quip about that directory wasn't so much to say that we needed to socially establish shared-dreaming to the level LD'ing currently enjoys, but that that directory (and routing-system) _literally must exist before_ practical shared-dreaming can ever really happen on a "common occurrence" basis, or else dream-sharers would have no way to find each other (with precious few exceptions, perhaps, like bond-sharing people such as you and your daughter).  

Second, practical LD'ing has been around for a very long time, and, since it was used as a tool for centuries by various shaman, yogis, and those Tibetan monks, it was pretty much a given in the world of dreamers long before LaBerge et al entered the scene (indeed, I for one was LD'ing steadily for years before EWOLD appeared).  Yes, the idea of shared dreaming has been around forever too, but it tended to reside more in the realms of mysticism and magic than as a usable tool, and its validity has always existed solely in the word of the dream-sharer.  

So, I think that, if dream-sharing were the same sort of tool, used regularly by as many people as LD'ing is, then we would be living in a very different world, with much thicker physics texts.

I think this stuff is significant, and worth the risk of repeating.  





> At the moment shared dreaming , like lucid dreaming did before, lies only in the claims of people - but given enough momentum, (if real) it could be easily proven (even easier than lucid dreaming originally was!)



I have always had a real problem with this.  _Why is it_ that dream-sharing has never been proven?  Since it has a built-in witness (your dream-sharing partner), you'd think it would be a snap to prove.  And yet it hasn't been.  [And yes, Shadowofwind, if you're out there, I understand that dream-sharing as you understand it would be very difficult to prove, but I'm talking here about the simple, classic, "two people go to sleep and intentionally share a dream-space together" definition.]

It is impressive that you've shared dreams with your daughter, Floatinghead, and I won't question your account of them.  But a good solid skeptic who cares to would likely be able to offer you a list of more likely phenomena you two may have encountered, from coincidence to parallel day residue to telepathy to two people recalling their dreams in the most exciting way possible to something else altogether -- but still a "something" that doesn't challenge what we know of space, time, consciousness, brain physiology, and energy physics. [and no, that was not me using passive-aggression to question your accounts  :wink2: )

Finally, remember that I have no philosophical problem with the concept of dream-sharing, I feel I've been there myself more than once, and I would welcome the revolutionary knowledge that would accompany dream-sharing's practical entry into general human experience. I'm just putting this stuff out there because it seemed the gesture needed to be made... it is far more important to me that people learn to prove stuff like this for themselves, without relying solely on what they are told than it is to prove it, say, scientifically. So a bit of information from the "other side" seemed appropriate.

Okay, I'll stop now, before Nomad spots the heresies.

----------


## Psionik

Well yes... 

StephL  I thought about population in my dreams, astral plane and so on... 
It is strange In normal dreams there is less beings than in real life. 
In my LD I have even less populated surrounding. 
AP- there is really big problem to find someone. It is easy to say, find some master, guide... But where when there is nearly nobody? I'm crying loudly as I can, and nobody. Then there is thing with my inner voice, sometimes I hear it clearly while in astral(Once I stood from my body to dark as usual, but darkness, total darkness remained. I went to turn lights on only to find they doesn't function. I saw only dim line in bulb, but otherwise was total darkness still. Then I heard my inner voice stating clearly. There is darkness. But there is LIGHT! You have to learn to see it!!! And I tried and I saw. Everything did have its inner light.). Sometimes I only feel my inner voice. Maybe that is my guide...
In Mental dimension I had seen no one till now. Only really paradise like surrounding, full of plant life... rivers... everything in pristine condition. Everything sparkling. even air. Everything reeks of life, energy and peace. Till now I didn't find there any being, any animal...
In Budhic dimension I was in grayish white space. It was grayish only because I saw a stars all around... My inner voice said through feelings that that are other people. I even saw myself as such star. Everything was submerged into feeling of unconditional LOVE. Spherical vision of surrounding... It is still strange for me that I was not confused by sensory input  :smiley: .

Sageous why do you thing that it is unnatural to know you are dreaming? I have thoughts by every dream. It is not much different to know about dreaming then. As for proofing - I'm scientist (PhD in material chemistry) so I know a little about scientific process. LD are subjective, even if there could be in cases of points of contact in possibly shared dream... How would you measure that? It will fall to beliefs of dreamers dreaming seemingly the same dream. Therefore I try to find at least my subjective proofs. It would be scientifically proved if there would be objective proofs. Therefore I can only say that I believe in possibility, and Nomad, Raven, etc. could experience something that seems to be real thing. Skepticism is good. Wrong is to not prove to yourself again and again your facts and be fanatic in belief that your facts are inviolable.

Floatinghead I read some of that dream journals... There is so much fight in them... That is what I don't understand. I have no need for fight, I needed to use force only few times. Even then it was not necessary. In dreams there is no need for fight. You can be what you want to be, in certain boundaries. I remember one LD where I was caught by some rioters or terrorists, who wanted something of government. I was confined to some school together with other people(strangers). I knew we are going to die. I was calm. Others were in great distress. I simply was there sitting and disinterestedly observed peoples emotion. Then I thought to go away... I pulled electric lines and knocked out electricity in whole city. I walked away directly between that terrorist. Or other LD where there was man who wanted to kill me. He was angry on me that I'm conscious. He shot me with pistol... many bullets. I started to die. It was tiring. Then I said to myself I don't want to feel that and I felt energy inside me. Energy strongly rose and I was again in full health. He started to cut me with knife... I was uninterested by it and went away through closest wall. He couldn't go after me. Why I have to fight? Unnecessary. My inner peace, and voice are my greatest assets. No need for violence. Even that method of yours, how to make connection (shaking or shouting on dream people) seems to me a little bit extreme, but maybe it is necessary to arise attention of other dreamer, to make him lucid enough and to comunicate.

----------


## tP97

> Like the post of tP97, who seemingly took this thread as a hint at being in mortal danger in his or her dreams.



Well, I was was just wondering about things at the time , I did not consider it a serious threat :p





> I try to be an open-minded agnostic - but got to admit I lean towards what is termed atheistic.



Well, its the same with me , I am an atheist who is a bit bent towards agnosticity since we don't know a lot things and there are things even we cant understand. I'd say the right attitude should be - Form your views but be reading to understand and analyse further. Then, it shouldn't matter wether you're a theist or an atheist at the moment





> I will say for myself, I'm quite skeptic about this stuff too. But that is not stopping me to try it again and again. I will be skeptic only till I will have MY conclusive positive results. And when I'm concentrating for LD or AP I erase all skeptic thought. Only being now and here and objective remains.



Its same with me, I feel that so many experiences that they have given cannot be forged but at the same time some of them are too silly to be true , so I would try it myself . Though I think that I have had 2 unintended shared dreams , one was about me and a friend running from an earthquake . When I told my friend about it , he said that he remembered it too. The second one is my last DJ. I am willing to try it because I have heard about this and other psychic stuff a lot , it is even said that its knowledge has been there from the egyption period. . than that also , I feel that even if these things are forged , they can give a  good inspiration  for my fantasy novel which had been based on something similar (It was about a world which a scientist created by weaving dream worlds together.)





> I have a feeling I am not the only one who 'wants to believe'



I really want to believe , in it , reincarnation , god and other psychic stuff too XD






> Here's the thing: Imagine you discover the earth is round, and you KNOW it without a shadow of a doubt - you try and tell people what you have discovered, what you have seen with your own eyes and you even had someone there with you to back this claim up - can you imagine how frustrating it would be for people just to shrug and keep walking? NOT to believe you? This is the reason why he is so determined here. Raven on the other hand, she does not feel the need to try and convince people, she knows it is true and that is good enough for her.



Thats..  a nice comparision 





> What I can´t help to wonder - how can you manage to not be afraid of all this, while believing it.
> 
> Like - example - when I had my first lucid - I believed in this plane being populated by truly dangerous beings.
> And since it felt so real - more than real actually - much more "realistic" - well - I thought it a very sensible decision to get the heck out of there and not ever come back.
> 
> Except when I maybe had reached something like true competence as - for lack of a better word - a witch - being able to fight, if necessary.
> How can one feel this competence - while not even being sure, if it is all true?
> 
> It scared the living daylights out of me from that perspective.
> ...



Afraid ? are you kidding me? Why would someone be afraid of such an awesome concept being real? I would be crying from happiness if this concept turns out to be real XD ! It would be exactly like the world  i was writing about in my novel , and believe me it will be the true form of awesomeness XD





> I have always had a real problem with this. Why is it that dream-sharing has never been proven? Since it has a built-in witness (your dream-sharing partner), you'd think it would be a snap to prove. And yet it hasn't been. [And yes, Shadowofwind, if you're out there, I understand that dream-sharing as you understand it would be very difficult to prove, but I'm talking here about the simple, classic, "two people go to sleep and intentionally share a dream-space together" definition.]



Well , nomad posted a thread on this , refer to that . The main reason can be- It is not as widely known as LD 





> Floatinghead I read some of that dream journals... There is so much fight in them... That is what I don't understand. I have no need for fight, I needed to use force only few times. Even then it was not necessary. In dreams there is no need for fight. You can be what you want to be, in certain boundaries. I remember one LD where I was caught by some rioters or terrorists, who wanted something of government. I was confined to some school together with other people(strangers). I knew we are going to die. I was calm. Others were in great distress. I simply was there sitting and disinterestedly observed peoples emotion. Then I thought to go away... I pulled electric lines and knocked out electricity in whole city. I walked away directly between that terrorist. Or other LD where there was man who wanted to kill me. He was angry on me that I'm conscious. He shot me with pistol... many bullets. I started to die. It was tiring. Then I said to myself I don't want to feel that and I felt energy inside me. Energy strongly rose and I was again in full health. He started to cut me with knife... I was uninterested by it and went away through closest wall. He couldn't go after me. Why I have to fight? Unnecessary. My inner peace, and voice are my greatest assets. No need for violence. Even that method of yours, how to make connection (shaking or shouting on dream people) seems to me a little bit extreme, but maybe it is necessary to arise attention of other dreamer, to make him lucid enough and to comunicate.



lol, we like fighting in dreams because its fun to fly , through energy waves and do all other fantasy stuff XD

----------


## tP97

Stephl,
Well I do fear one thing , that is if I am not being able to distinguish btw reality and dreaming . What I get reckless in reality? Is this possible?

----------


## floatinghead

Psionik:

put simply - we reap what we sew. Are you familiar with the theory of the law of attraction? What you wish and expect to encounter within the astral/dreaming will manifest itself. If you wish to fight the demons then that is what you will encounter, but if you prefer to encounter only peaceful entities then they will be drawn to you. I think the only reason bad forms will be attracted to you would be if you entered the dreaming/astral with negative thoughts on your mind. Enter with love and you will only attract love.

Sageous:





> The trouble with this is that lucid dreaming and dream sharing are two very different things, for two very important reasons. 
> 
> First, LD'ing does not require new chapters to be written in the physics books. Yes, LD'ing requires a paradoxical and arguably unnatural act of being awake while you are asleep, but it still works inside your head, and does so without requiring major changes in your physiology. Shared-dreaming must include things like instant communication without regard for time or space, and a method for forming thoughts whose energy can be transmitted to some other specific place and then be received, downloaded, and understood by the the mind of the recipient, which challenges far more than just physiology. Also, my quip about that directory wasn't so much to say that we needed to socially establish shared-dreaming to the level LD'ing currently enjoys, but that that directory (and routing-system) literally must exist before practical shared-dreaming can ever really happen on a "common occurrence" basis, or else dream-sharers would have no way to find each other (with precious few exceptions, perhaps, like bond-sharing people such as you and your daughter). 
> 
> Second, practical LD'ing has been around for a very long time, and, since it was used as a tool for centuries by various shaman, yogis, and those Tibetan monks, it was pretty much a given in the world of dreamers long before LaBerge et al entered the scene (indeed, I for one was LD'ing steadily for years before EWOLD appeared). Yes, the idea of shared dreaming has been around forever too, but it tended to reside more in the realms of mysticism and magic than as a usable tool, and its validity has always existed solely in the word of the dream-sharer. 
> 
> So, I think that, if dream-sharing were the same sort of tool, used regularly by as many people as LD'ing is, then we would be living in a very different world, with much thicker physics texts.
> 
> I think this stuff is significant, and worth the risk of repeating.




 You have raised some interesting points here my friend. But please, do not fall into the 'science' trap - just because science in it's current incarnation does not agree with what is currently being discovered does not necessarily nullify what is happening. Back in ancient greek when atoms were first being theorized about Democritus was famous for saying point blank that atoms were not divisible. When Quantum mechanics was first proposed many scientists simply did not accept it as a viable theory because it did not work AT ALL with Einstein's theory of General Relativity. Even today, with all we know about Quantum mechanics is proven to be true we still do not know (with any degree of certainty) that it works in hand with General Relativity. So far the two theories clash, yet - they both exist within this universe as working models. Sure, super string theory and the 'big' M theory have been theorized as a way to join these two theories in harmony - but these new 'super' theories have their own problems to deal with which leaves a whole unexplained area where shared dreaming could fall neatly into. For example, string theory suggests that there are 11 dimensions in total which could help to suggest where this 'dreaming/astral' place is (if it is a separate 'place') and in the process NOT go against any known scientific knowledge. Another possible suggestion is that the astral exists within the invisible 'dark matter' (although current experiments have not found this elusive 'matter' so far) But the bottom line is that there is still a HUGE chunk which science cannot explain but KNOWS that exists in some form. Within the tried and tested 'double slit' experiment (quantum mechanics) above all things CONSCIOUSNESS seems to be the key in explaining what is happening there (it still currently resides in being the more competent theory) 

Think about it, if what is suggested by this experiment is to be true then consciousness is the key to the universe and puts the current view of how we understand the universe with the present scientific view to be pretty wrong. 

In regards to your comment about other ways to explain shared dreaming- absolutely - I am open to understanding - we have NO idea what is happening. Recent current developments have suggested to me that at this current juncture it is more of a type of telepathy based framework (although I would prefer it to have a more dimensional aspect to it) The bottom line is that there IS something happening and THAT is worth exploring is it not? At the very least, to borrow a phrase coined for quantum mechanics; there exists 'spooky action at a distance'  :smiley:

----------


## floatinghead

I forgot to reply to this point:





> I have always had a real problem with this. Why is it that dream-sharing has never been proven? Since it has a built-in witness (your dream-sharing partner), you'd think it would be a snap to prove. And yet it hasn't been. [And yes, Shadowofwind, if you're out there, I understand that dream-sharing as you understand it would be very difficult to prove, but I'm talking here about the simple, classic, "two people go to sleep and intentionally share a dream-space together" definition.]



I think dream sharing is like an advanced version of lucid dreaming, it is difficult to do because we do not have a frame of reference to help us (unlike those who do not know how to lucid dream and have a plethora of reference material to refer to) It is my intention to help create an easy to use guide so that others will be able to access shared dreaming like they do with lucid dreaming - with a bit of practice and allot of determination.

----------


## Psionik

> Stephl,
> Well I do fear one thing , that is if I am not being able to distinguish btw reality and dreaming . What I get reckless in reality? Is this possible?



I don't know what exactly is not possible. I try to be in line with what I perceive as best path in my life. Be it in normal life, in dreams, in LD, in OBE travels. Then I couldn't do bad in my eyes. And have peace of mind. I like to learn new things (I don't know whether this is only about my psyche, or it is also about reality/different realities. I take it as possibilities.) 

floatinghead I heard about that law. It certainly does function in dreams or OBE travels. In real life it is not so simple. 

Just thought... Super-string theory works with 11 dimensions, well that is something... Maybe because in astral(and dreaming) we are moving in 5 dimensional space, therefore the time is not as relevant because it is 4th dimension. So that can be reason, two people don't need to be dreaming in the same time, they will connect by going through time to right place and time.

----------


## floatinghead

> I don't know what exactly is not possible. I try to be in line with what I perceive as best path in my life. Be it in normal life, in dreams, in LD, in OBE travels. Then I couldn't do bad in my eyes. And have peace of mind. I like to learn new things (I don't know whether this is only about my psyche, or it is also about reality/different realities. I take it as possibilities.) 
> 
> floatinghead I heard about that law. It certainly does function in dreams or OBE travels. In real life it is not so simple. 
> 
> Just thought... Super-string theory works with 11 dimensions, well that is something... Maybe because in astral(and dreaming) we are moving in 5 dimensional space, therefore the time is not as relevant because it is 4th dimension. So that can be reason, two people don't need to be dreaming in the same time, they will connect by going through time to right place and time.



Can you imagine what would be possible if we were able to access a dimension where time does not exist?

----------


## Psionik

I think there is not dimension without time... maybe lower ones... But who knows how to project to 3 dimensional space? or 2, or 1? Is that even possible? Time dimension is from our reality to higher dimensions always present.
Perception is deformed. How to tell it... In astral time seems to be not very... linear. In mental dimension(that has to be 5th too, according to some authors it is in 6th) my perception of time lacks quite a bit. In Budhic dimension time lost its meaning. There was time flow, but it seemed to hold still, and when it flowed, it was very slowly. Forward and backward.  When I tried to describe it to my friends I said that every thought seemed to last milenia. But even thought as such doesn't exist there. Thought process was transformed to something like very weak feeling. I cant describe it... I can exist in normal body with thought process similar to that needed in AP, but it is not possible to do the same thought process like in Budhic dimension. For example, I felt need to move to star(presenting my soulmate) and that needed whole eternity to reach point where I started react on that resolve and move. I didn't reach her, my concentration slipped and I was sent back into body. I need to fuse with her somehow. I don't know how, I don't know why, my inner feeling tells me it is needed. Next time I reach that dimension I will continue.  But It is something like impossible to reach needed level of focus and state of mind to go there for me. I need to train more. And I do.

----------


## Sageous

Okay, one more round, and then I throw my "contrary-man" hat into the dust-bin for a time:





> Sageous:
>  ...But please, do not fall into the 'science' trap - just because science in it's current incarnation does not agree with what is currently being discovered does not necessarily nullify what is happening.



Trust me, I'm not falling into a science trap; I am simply not wired that way.  As I think I've already said, I have plenty of faith that science has only begun its journey, and much of what we experience either eludes the scientific process for proof due to the limits of current tools/knowledge, or else, and more often, is simply ignored by the scientific community.  

As I think I also said, the proof I talk about is more about what an individual is telling himself than it is about objective lab results.  In the name of time and my own laziness: I did a whole thread on this, which I think I also already linked to, called A Treatise on Proof; you might want to check it out to see extended versions of my thoughts on this stuff, plus the crap I got for expressing those thoughts as well as the interesting arguments that ensued... that way we don't have to rehash it here, and continue sullying Nomad's thread.





> For example, string theory suggests that there are 11 dimensions in total which could help to suggest where this 'dreaming/astral' place is (if it is a separate 'place') and in the process NOT go against any known scientific knowledge.



I'm not sure that the astrophysicists' required mathematical extra dimensions quite match the perceived dimensions encountered in astral or dream "travel,"  but I don't know enough about string theory to attach a meaningful response, save that the dimensions in which we exist -- and in which our consciousnesses are bred to perceive -- generally follow the laws of physics as we know them.  Also, since our bodies exist in these four dimensions, and dream-sharing includes transmission of information from them to other bodies (or, perhaps, to some other place), "mundane" barriers like the speed of light and transmitting/receiving thought energy over vast distances seem unavoidable...unless there are more "laws" that we haven't yet encountered (which, BTW, I'm all for).





> Another possible suggestion is that the astral exists within the invisible 'dark matter' (although current experiments have not found this elusive 'matter' so far) But the bottom line is that there is still a HUGE chunk which science cannot explain but KNOWS that exists in some form.



Again, dark matter exists to explain curious observations (like that fact that some galaxies' spin rates ought to be hurling their stars into space, but they're not) and to fill in holes in the math.  Since no one has detected it yet (as far as I know), much less put it in a jar to study, it might not be time yet to attribute anything to it. Also, since dark matter is just more stuff, and not really a dimension-engine, it might not be the place to go to explain things like dream-sharing. If you want to attribute it to exotic concepts, I think the Higgs field is a much better candidate!  





> Within the tried and tested 'double slit' experiment (quantum mechanics) above all things CONSCIOUSNESS seems to be the key in explaining what is happening there (it still currently resides in being the more competent theory) 
> 
> Think about it, if what is suggested by this experiment is to be true then consciousness is the key to the universe and puts the current view of how we understand the universe with the present scientific view to be pretty wrong.



Except that consciousness is the key to our _perception_ of the universe, and not to the _nature_ of the universe. There is a difference. The universe would continue on its merry way if we did not exist -- I doubt it would even register our absence.  Yes, consciousness is what defines us, and may be the ultimate fuel for helping us transcend this universe, but I don't think it _is_ the universe.  Sure, science has only begun to fill in the pieces of the cosmic puzzle, and much that we know now will eventually be proven quite wrong and perhaps deeply misguided, but is it a good idea to jump ahead replace those incorrect pieces with _new_ incorrect pieces, whose shape is formed by even _less_ information?  Probably not.





> The bottom line is that there IS something happening and THAT is worth exploring is it not?



 Yes! 

Not only is that the core to, well, _everything_, it also is the basic theme of my life's work.  So please believe that I am not in any kind of thrall to science or the scientific process, and do not hold its current lexicon as the absolute be-all and end-all of truth in this world... I'm sorry you got that impression from me, try as I did to avoid it. My goal here was to simply point out that if shared dreaming were real it would imply that there is a whole lot more going on in our world than we currently know, physics-wise, and that a thing should not be deemed as true simply because someone told me it was. Above all, with regard to "unprovable" stuff like shared-dreaming, the proof that matters is that which I make to myself, and can accept as the truth because I checked.  No more; no less.

Given that the conversation has shifted to other interesting things at this point, this will be my last post here about this... I hope I made better sense and, if you want to continue, feel free to shoot over to my Treatise on Proof thread!

----------


## Sageous

> Can you imagine what would be possible if we were able to access a dimension where time does not exist?



*Yes!*

----------


## floatinghead

you quit and run on me! lol

No seriously, it is very courteous of you to respect the thread in this way as to not intentionally stampede on another's point of view - and I respect that! You are open minded skeptic - that is the best sort in my opinion! It is with people like YOU that we can really make any kind of progress, especially when it comes down to science. And you are right that when it comes down to it we are really relying on trust as the basis of any proof of shared dreaming at this point. 

With all this said - I would like to challenge you sir,  I challenge you to take the time and effort involved involved in having these so call perceived 'shared dreams' so that you can make up your own mind. I will help you with any information and techniques you will need.

If you are interested in this challenge pm me and we can get this show on the road!

... now I will tinker on down to your thread  :smiley:

----------


## tP97

> put simply - we reap what we sew. Are you familiar with the theory of the law of attraction? What you wish and expect to encounter within the astral/dreaming will manifest itself. If you wish to fight the demons then that is what you will encounter, but if you prefer to encounter only peaceful entities then they will be drawn to you. I think the only reason bad forms will be attracted to you would be if you entered the dreaming/astral with negative thoughts on your mind. Enter with love and you will only attract love.



Well i'd be delibrately drawing demons near me because Demon slaying is fun XD





> The trouble with this is that lucid dreaming and dream sharing are two very different things, for two very important reasons. 
> 
> First, LD'ing does not require new chapters to be written in the physics books. Yes, LD'ing requires a paradoxical and arguably unnatural act of being awake while you are asleep, but it still works inside your head, and does so without requiring major changes in your physiology. Shared-dreaming must include things like instant communication without regard for time or space, and a method for forming thoughts whose energy can be transmitted to some other specific place and then be received, downloaded, and understood by the the mind of the recipient, which challenges far more than just physiology. Also, my quip about that directory wasn't so much to say that we needed to socially establish shared-dreaming to the level LD'ing currently enjoys, but that that directory (and routing-system) literally must exist before practical shared-dreaming can ever really happen on a "common occurrence" basis, or else dream-sharers would have no way to find each other (with precious few exceptions, perhaps, like bond-sharing people such as you and your daughter). 
> 
> Second, practical LD'ing has been around for a very long time, and, since it was used as a tool for centuries by various shaman, yogis, and those Tibetan monks, it was pretty much a given in the world of dreamers long before LaBerge et al entered the scene (indeed, I for one was LD'ing steadily for years before EWOLD appeared). Yes, the idea of shared dreaming has been around forever too, but it tended to reside more in the realms of mysticism and magic than as a usable tool, and its validity has always existed solely in the word of the dream-sharer. 
> 
> So, I think that, if dream-sharing were the same sort of tool, used regularly by as many people as LD'ing is, then we would be living in a very different world, with much thicker physics texts.
> 
> I think this stuff is significant, and worth the risk of repeating.



Did you know that most of the science we had been studying before the last century was invalid? Quantum physics flipped away the old science , the complete old science . Right now we are not even able to connect micro and macro physics , so there is a lot we don't know , thus SD can be possiblity, one of the reasons why SD is not as known as LD is that SD requires a big community of LDyers who would investigate further . THe conditions for the discovery of SD have been available only in the last decade.  I agree with floating head on his veiws on SD.





> Just thought... Super-string theory works with 11 dimensions, well that is something... Maybe because in astral(and dreaming) we are moving in 5 dimensional space, therefore the time is not as relevant because it is 4th dimension. So that can be reason, two people don't need to be dreaming in the same time, they will connect by going through time to right place and time.



Well... or it can be that one person read someones DJ and then after some time saw a similar dream

----------


## Sageous

> With all this said - I would like to challenge you sir,  I challenge you to take the time and effort involved involved in having these so call perceived 'shared dreams' so that you can make up your own mind. I will help you with any information and techniques you will need. If you are interested in this challenge pm me and we can get this show on the road!



Okay, full disclosure time.  First, I must connect you to yet another thread I started some time ago, called Finding Yourself in Other People's Dreams.  Though the OP isn't specifically about shared-dreaming, I think you'll get the hint.  Also, though shared-dreaming is not a current goal of mine, I actually wrote a novel called _Party Line_ that was both about shared dreaming and that used share-dreaming as the narrative format.  I wrote another, somewhat more fantasy-oriented novel about LD'ing that also included shared-dreaming of a sort. Add to that the fact that pretty much all of my work is based on, if not directly drawn from, my own dreaming experience, and you'll see that shared-dreaming is not all that foreign an activity for me.  I'm just not much of a fan these days.  

Keep in mind also that the elusive proof of shared dreaming, and the implications accompanying that proof, are still important to me, especially because it helps form a benchmark from which I can avoid fooling myself (that sounded better in my head).

As I hinted in my response to you on the proof thread, I will be willing to work with you and learn from you -- but that PM has to come to me in my _sleep_, not on my computer. ... now there's a challenge! :wink2:   And I will be ready for your arrival, I always am.

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## shadowofwind

Hi floatinghead.  I haven't had time to more than skim the recent additions to this thread, but here are a couple of comments, in hopes that they clarify some issues rather than confusing them more.

When I joined the forum two and a half years ago, about three months before Sageous, people were going gangbusters with 'dream plane' exploration, which I think is great.  But for better or for worse there didn't seem to be much attempt to distinguish what is objectively and collectively real from what is personal and subjective.  You touched on this point earlier, when you mentioned that there seems to be a distinction between 'The moon' and the moon of particular dreamers and groups of dreamers.  To spin it positively, some people like WakingNomad recognized that if people try to hard to analyze this sort of thing to the end, that's interfering with their progress they're not actually out there doing it.  Or to spin it negatively, some people wanted to be adepts of The Astral Plane or The Dream World, and were intolerant of other people that brought a different perspective because it undermined that position.  Or they were proud of what they'd accomplished, and felt that it was being attacked.  Or some combination of these and other motivations.  There were a lot of people here that don't post anymore, and I've forgotten their screen names.

It has appeared to me that Sageous felt that he brought something a little bit different to the table, and that it was brushed away as wrong or irrelevant.  I think that some of this also reflects some internal frustration, that he has felt he's on the cusp of something, but can't quite put together what comes next, and correctly perceives that what other people have been advocating isn't quite the ticket for him.  To some extent I'm guessing because he posted a lot on other subforums that I don't read, but this has been my impression.  So he's not really against shared dreaming, he's just trying to make a place for what he knows and perceives to be of value, while resisting ways of thinking that he sees as hostile to that.  Principally, to whatever extent people make stuff up and believe its real, that's hostile to everything that's not included, particularly to the extent that people push their own perspective at the exclusion of other perspectives.

About three years ago I dreamed of some people who I could not see, but it felt sort of like they were pretending to be ninjas.  In regards to me, they observed 'he can not perceive space'.  Afterwards I thought maybe these were alien minds or something, and were commenting on some limitation of the way I experience reality.  So I tried to think if I could be aware of 'space', independent of the characteristics and interrelations between objects in space.  That may have been part of the meaning of the dream, but with retrospect, those 'ninjas' were a premonition of DreamViews people who were into dream plane fighting, for self defense and killing 'dream police' and whatnot, and their comment was simply that I'm mostly unaware of their visual environment when dreaming lucidly, which is true.  

I think this is another facet of the criticisms of people like myself and Sageous - this astral kung fu stuff is largely projected, and a lot of it is unhealthy.  If you can't tell what's yours from what's not yours, how can you deal effectively with what's unhealthy?  Hence the value of recognizing what is collectively inherent in our dream plane, as distinct from what we're putting there ourselves that can be changed.  I think there are valid arguments on the other side too.  Just because I don't dream of fighting people or demons doesn't mean that I don't struggle with things or that I'm not threatened by things that take a less definite form.  So I'd like to share what I can, while learning from people different than me, to form some kind of better synthesis of the different approaches.  But its difficult, because its hard to share such perspectives without people feeling disrespected.  Its pretty clear to me, for instance, that Sageous respected WakingNomad, and I respected WakingNomad also.  But since we viewed him differently than he viewed himself, and viewed ourselves differently than he viewed us, it can be difficult for that respect to stand above the apparent disrespect that's unavoidable given our different perspectives.  I guess we all have to be willing to accept a certain amount of derision also.  And I'm not too proud to say that I think I deserve some of it, if only some of it.

Usually when I try to interject myself somewhere and fix things up by 'explaining' everything it just pisses everyone off even if they weren't pissed off before.  But I guess I never stop trying, even though in a lot of ways I'm the most aggressive person on here, I also want everybody to be one big happy family.  I think the different parts of the family need each other. 

I realize that I've been talking as if people have been fighting, when in fact people haven't really been fighting.  I'm just trying to highlight some of the conflict that underlies some of these debates, for the sake of understanding it, even though its not the sole or even the most important thing that's been going on. 

Gotta go.

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## Psionik

Subjectivity coupled together with hard obtained data makes one more likely to defend his position. 
For sake of our spiritual progress there is need to be more open minded... but healthy skepticism is essential in my opinion.  Mainly because of non measurable subjective perception of this kind of activity.
Statistic is also not infallible, I would be very cautious to use statistic in this kind of investigation. One can obtain statistically sound proof and also disproof of theory- and that from the same data.

----------


## floatinghead

> Hi floatinghead.  I haven't had time to more than skim the recent additions to this thread, but here are a couple of comments, in hopes that they clarify some issues rather than confusing them more.
> 
> When I joined the forum two and a half years ago, about three months before Sageous, people were going gangbusters with 'dream plane' exploration, which I think is great.  But for better or for worse there didn't seem to be much attempt to distinguish what is objectively and collectively real from what is personal and subjective.  You touched on this point earlier, when you mentioned that there seems to be a distinction between 'The moon' and the moon of particular dreamers and groups of dreamers.  To spin it positively, some people like WakingNomad recognized that if people try to hard to analyze this sort of thing to the end, that's interfering with their progress they're not actually out there doing it.  Or to spin it negatively, some people wanted to be adepts of The Astral Plane or The Dream World, and were intolerant of other people that brought a different perspective because it undermined that position.  Or they were proud of what they'd accomplished, and felt that it was being attacked.  Or some combination of these and other motivations.  There were a lot of people here that don't post anymore, and I've forgotten their screen names.
> 
> It has appeared to me that Sageous felt that he brought something a little bit different to the table, and that it was brushed away as wrong or irrelevant.  I think that some of this also reflects some internal frustration, that he has felt he's on the cusp of something, but can't quite put together what comes next, and correctly perceives that what other people have been advocating isn't quite the ticket for him.  To some extent I'm guessing because he posted a lot on other subforums that I don't read, but this has been my impression.  So he's not really against shared dreaming, he's just trying to make a place for what he knows and perceives to be of value, while resisting ways of thinking that he sees as hostile to that.  Principally, to whatever extent people make stuff up and believe its real, that's hostile to everything that's not included, particularly to the extent that people push their own perspective at the exclusion of other perspectives.
> 
> About three years ago I dreamed of some people who I could not see, but it felt sort of like they were pretending to be ninjas.  In regards to me, they observed 'he can not perceive space'.  Afterwards I thought maybe these were alien minds or something, and were commenting on some limitation of the way I experience reality.  So I tried to think if I could be aware of 'space', independent of the characteristics and interrelations between objects in space.  That may have been part of the meaning of the dream, but with retrospect, those 'ninjas' were a premonition of DreamViews people who were into dream plane fighting, for self defense and killing 'dream police' and whatnot, and their comment was simply that I'm mostly unaware of their visual environment when dreaming lucidly, which is true.  
> 
> I think this is another facet of the criticisms of people like myself and Sageous - this astral kung fu stuff is largely projected, and a lot of it is unhealthy.  If you can't tell what's yours from what's not yours, how can you deal effectively with what's unhealthy?  Hence the value of recognizing what is collectively inherent in our dream plane, as distinct from what we're putting there ourselves that can be changed.  I think there are valid arguments on the other side too.  Just because I don't dream of fighting people or demons doesn't mean that I don't struggle with things or that I'm not threatened by things that take a less definite form.  So I'd like to share what I can, while learning from people different than me, to form some kind of better synthesis of the different approaches.  But its difficult, because its hard to share such perspectives without people feeling disrespected.  Its pretty clear to me, for instance, that Sageous respected WakingNomad, and I respected WakingNomad also.  But since we viewed him differently than he viewed himself, and viewed ourselves differently than he viewed us, it can be difficult for that respect to stand above the apparent disrespect that's unavoidable given our different perspectives.  I guess we all have to be willing to accept a certain amount of derision also.  And I'm not too proud to say that I think I deserve some of it, if only some of it.
> ...



Hi Shadow - thanks for filling me in!

I love the idea of having a kind of 'big happy family' that you referred to. Especially since, at it's core we are all talking about the same thing! I really do think it is a matter of perspective (for the majority of the time at least) . For example, rather than talk about wyrms being cut up into pieces which caused the original worm holes -  if Nomad had put it a different way, more of a scientific hypothesis which involved mathematically calculated reasons behind how when the big bang occurred this would have split and formed other elements such as black holes to form all over the universe (or some such thing) and presented it as a hypothesis he would have not only drawn in a different kind of crowd but possibly would have had more more accepting response. (perhaps, and perhaps the underlining meaning behind what he 'saw' has nothing to do with actual perceived worm holes encountered in dreams and was meant to be received more of a fable than anything else) The bottom line is that at it's core we are all talking about the same thing. Whenever ANYTHING is presented within the dreaming we can only take the information with a pinch of salt and an open mind. What we receive there is filtered through our individual translators and this is why it may come across like we are perceiving different things sometimes - but be assured they are the same  (in my opinion at least!) 

I suppose that has always been the reason why dreaming has not made more progress than it rightly should have; because we try to measure it using the same physical instruments we measure THIS reality by. By stepping back and try to see the bigger picture here (rather than get bogged down by the smaller inconsistencies) we can start to understand the real nature of this other 'reality'.

Regarding others perceived ideas that we must 'fight' our way through dreams with other more deviant forces. I agree with you, that at first I had a real problem personally with this notion: why should there be negative forces out there where by I need to 'arm' myself in order to defend myself? Isn't it silly, within this (possibly) spiritual place that we should lower ourselves to such, urm, physical primal urges? But no, if you REALLY think about it it DOES make sense. Again, look at it not in the literal sense but in a more figurative view point. Whether we like it or not the universe consists of ying and yang, bad and good, order and entropy (viewed within a scientific framework) It makes complete sense that within us and outside of us there exists both bad and good intentions. How we choose to encounter these forces however is purely up to us. Some would feel talking to malevolent forces would work, others would prefer to project love in order to dispel these negative elements while others still would consume these negative energies into themselves as a way of excepting our darker side. And some would defeat these forces using kung-foo and such like. None of these are wrong, they are just different ways of perceiving the same thing - the result is the same = order has prevailed over entropy  :smiley:  (another reason why I started seeing this 'fighting' within the dreaming differently was because, I kind of walked in on a conversation with myself and my dreamguide (who I did not know existed at the time) and she was trying to teach me how to use telekinesis within the dreaming in order for me to help protect myself (and also felt that learning how to fight and use powers was a fun way to quickly learn dream control) my daughter is also aware of her Dream guide teaching her how to fight within the dreaming and she has no notion of others doing this within the dreaming and I did not speak to her about it until she told me.

In regards to what you were saying about not knowing the difference between what is yours and not yous - what is 'real' and 'self projected' This has always been my issue while trying to navigate my way in the dreaming. But as long as you are 'fighting' (in which ever way you choose) what you perceive to be darker forces, whether it is your own or something exterior - I do not think that it would be 'unhealthy' . Humanity needs to defeat our negative side in order to evolve in a more healthy manner. 

Ultimately though I feel that we are ALL connected, and my suspicion is that whenever we dream of anyone we are actually dreaming of at least a PART of them, it is my suspicion that shared dreaming always happens on at least a very small scale, it is the degrees of connection that are relevant to us though.

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## floatinghead

> Subjectivity coupled together with hard obtained data makes one more likely to defend his position. 
> For sake of our spiritual progress there is need to be more open minded... but healthy skepticism is essential in my opinion.  Mainly because of non measurable subjective perception of this kind of activity.
> Statistic is also not infallible, I would be very cautious to use statistic in this kind of investigation. One can obtain statistically sound proof and also disproof of theory- and that from the same data.



absolutely! The only thing to be cautious of would be to how decide we would use and measure the data collected in a fair and accurate way: too relating it too this reality too much and we will be missing valuable information, while relying too much on symbolic interpretation will lead to false positives!

I would LOVE to get together with a group of you guys who are open skeptics to figure this thing out. I feel at present shared dreaming, if proven is absolutely the most important breakthrough one could hope for within this scientifically led age. If proven and adopted successfully within the main stream it would open up so many more doors to other lines of research, and would bring us one step closer into understanding the energy which makes us human (or soul if you prefer)  as a viable scientific possibility

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## StephL

What I want to recomnend all and everybody, who has put his nose in here and sees it:






*Spoiler* for _Some Text To The Video_: 



A look at the mysteries of black holes and theories about the existence of other kinds of holes, such as "mini" or microscopic black holes that exist at the atomic level; "white holes" -- the opposite of black holes where matter is eject out; and "wormholes" -- gateways in hyperspace that connect points in space and time and possibly lead to other dimensions. 

A black hole is a region of spacetime from which gravity prevents anything, including light, from escaping. The theory of general relativity predicts that a sufficiently compact mass will deform spacetime to form a black hole. Around a black hole, there is a mathematically defined surface called an event horizon that marks the point of no return. The hole is called "black" because it absorbs all the light that hits the horizon, reflecting nothing, just like a perfect black body in thermodynamics. Quantum field theory in curved spacetime predicts that event horizons emit radiation like a black body with a finite temperature. This temperature is inversely proportional to the mass of the black hole, making it difficult to observe this radiation for black holes of stellar mass or greater.

Objects whose gravity fields are too strong for light to escape were first considered in the 18th century by John Michell and Pierre-Simon Laplace. The first modern solution of general relativity that would characterize a black hole was found by Karl Schwarzschild in 1916, although its interpretation as a region of space from which nothing can escape was first published by David Finkelstein in 1958. Long considered a mathematical curiosity, it was during the 1960s that theoretical work showed black holes were a generic prediction of general relativity. The discovery of neutron stars sparked interest in gravitationally collapsed compact objects as a possible astrophysical reality.

A wormhole, also known as an Einstein-Rosen Bridge is a hypothetical topological feature of spacetime that would be, fundamentally, a "shortcut" through spacetime. For a simple visual explanation of a wormhole, consider spacetime visualized as a two-dimensional (2D) surface. If this surface is folded along a third dimension, it allows one to picture a wormhole "bridge". (Please note, though, that this is merely a visualization displayed to convey an essentially unvisualisable structure existing in 4 or more dimensions. The parts of the wormhole could be higher-dimensional analogues for the parts of the curved 2D surface; for example, instead of mouths which are circular holes in a 2D plane, a real wormhole's mouths could be spheres in 3D space.) A wormhole is, in theory, much like a tunnel with two ends each in separate points in spacetime.

There is no observational evidence for wormholes, but on a theoretical level there are valid solutions to the equations of the theory of general relativity which contain wormholes. Because of its robust theoretical strength, a wormhole is also known as one of the great physics metaphors for teaching general relativity. The first type of wormhole solution discovered was the Schwarzschild wormhole which would be present in the Schwarzschild metric describing an eternal black hole, but it was found that this type of wormhole would collapse too quickly for anything to cross from one end to the other. Wormholes which could actually be crossed in both directions, known as traversable wormholes, would only be possible if exotic matter with negative energy density could be used to stabilize them. (Many physicists such as Stephen Hawking, Kip Thorne, and others believe that the Casimir effect is evidence that negative energy densities are possible in nature.) Physicists have not found any natural process which would be predicted to form a wormhole naturally in the context of general relativity, although the quantum foam hypothesis is sometimes used to suggest that tiny wormholes might appear and disappear spontaneously at the Planck scale, and stable versions of such wormholes have been suggested as dark matter candidates. It has also been proposed that if a tiny wormhole held open by a negative-mass cosmic string had appeared around the time of the Big Bang, it could have been inflated to macroscopic size by cosmic inflation.

The American theoretical physicist John Archibald Wheeler coined the term wormhole in 1957; however, in 1921, the German mathematician Hermann Weyl already had proposed the wormhole theory, in connection with mass analysis of electromagnetic field energy.



Get wondering - and to know some more, and also to know more about _what we still don´t know_ - and enjoy the optics.. :wink2: 


They take up the point, that indeed the science fiction novel "Contact" (later also the movie..) of Carl Sagan did in the late 90s sort of spark a new interest in wormholes esp. on the theoretical physicists side of the scientific community - wow, I didn´t know that - well done Sagan!

There is a lot of background and outlooks, on what really _might_ be possible.
The laws of physics _allow for it_ - that is the magic phrase.
Travelling wormholes and instant-space and time-travel - and more.
But also that wormholes and white holes are still in the realm of only theoretical entities - "the unicorns of physics" or "one of the great physics metaphors for teaching general relativity".
We have yet to find and observe these two but so it was in the past for black holes as well!

Quite funny, when Clifford Johnson takes a bite of an apple a bit after 8 min!

Isn´t this a great time, ours, where we contemplate this sort of topic in a scientific matter with adding - not taking away from the wonder!

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## floatinghead

excellent - thank you for that! I truly believe that there is an equal place for both science and spiritualism where they both can co-exist, and this post above gives an excellent example of that. I agree, contact was a great film in the subject matter it was tackling - it bought together different elements in such a unique and new way (it makes me want to watch it again!)

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## tP97

Stephl, :3 thats my favourate science program series, have you watched the other parts too ? They're plain awesome. This series gives me a reasonable part of who I am today , my own theories are inspired from this series :3

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## StephL

> excellent - thank you for that! I truly believe that there is an equal place for both science and spiritualism where they both can co-exist, and this post above gives an excellent example of that. I agree, contact was a great film in the subject matter it was tackling - it bought together different elements in such a unique and new way (it makes me want to watch it again!)



I find it really great as well, that a piece of fiction - but a clever one - is able to influence what scientists are choosing to mull over more deeply.
I think, I will get myself the book - suspecting a much richer experience even..
smile.gif







> Stephl, :3 thats my favourate science program series, have you watched the other parts too ? They're plain awesome. This series gives me a reasonable part of who I am today , my own theories are inspired from this series :3



Niice - no I didn´t watch the other parts - but I will!
I can also say that there are really many great videos I have seen on youtube about science - and of course not only such things - which have formed my world-view and informed me, where I was interested in more detail and insight.

May I suggest to take a look in here: What We Still Don´t Know?

I came to open this thread from an inspiration, another 3 part video documentary sparked in me.
I guess, you will love these!
Enjoy!
smile.gif




*What still irks me in general with the OP are several things.*

For once - this is instilling his very personal belief system into other people´s minds - as if we wouldn´t have enough of these belief-systems already!





> Wormholes
> 
> Wormholes are tunnels, warp holes in the fabric of space and time, with a "2D" portal on each end.
> 
> *Whenever you do instant traveling you go through a wormhole* (and possibly when you teleport, but not sure.)



No - you don´t - you travel your mind.
Whenever you travel in your dreams - and where ever you take your metaphors for making it easier for you - this is your choice.

This is my take on it as a novice.
But what comes to mind here is primarily dutchraptor and what he got to say about dream-control  - what limits you are your preconceptions, that something needs a portal, energy, a certain technique: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...ilization.html


If there was even the shortest mention, that what he proposes here for the world of dreams, is nothing more than _his personal metaphor_ and does not have objective validity for other dreamers - I would say - nice - some imagination.
But it does sound pretty naive as well to me - sorry there - but note "sounds like" and "to me"..
Especially it sounds like being an unnecessary, self-inflicted reduction of possible experience.
Fine by me.
But why put this in front of others as "The Truth" and a revelation about reality of such an importance, that only now he can safely share with humankind?

Luckily - many dreamers on here do exhibit much more creativity, imagination and thinking for themselves when it comes to judging how hard it might be to get to the moon, and how to create their own means and metaphors - 100 % wyrm-free..wink.gif

Here the take of people responding in interesting and inspiring ways about how to.. see yourselves:






> Which is really what I meant by he would be crazy if he called these Ideas true for everyone. Dont get me wrong I have a lot of respect for Nomad its just that when I read some of his stuff he seems to put out radical ideas and states them as facts that are universally true. My dreams include an entirely different mythology that I hold true for myself but not for anyone else. 
> 
> *What I am saying is that I BELIEVE that there is no universal laws when it comes to dreaming. What is true for him is not always true for me or for you.*



Exactly!


Here we go - only a selection from the beginning of the thread - a great diversity of tips without having to find wormholes with sick creatures in them:





> *I do not get at all why you would need to use wormholes in dreamspace.* If it is a teleportation thing, and you would need wormholes to teleport, *perhaps this could have some validity in reality.* But I can use a raygun as my weapon of choice in the dreamscape. *Rayguns in real life- they would use up alot of energy. Do I have to find an in dream energy crystal and fight the parasites living off of the crystals to get it? I doubt it.* I am not being sarcastic and not trying to be belligerent at all, man, I am just opposing the concept that we would need to travel through astral wormholes to get to a place not constructed in the material world but constructed purely by the mind, (even the minds of many people combined.)







> *I would like to pose knowledge and creativity as the answer.* .. answers seems pretty clear to me. The atmosphere/space are one of the most misunderstood subjects to almost _everybody_. I hardly bet anybody could tell me the layers of the atmosphere or what REALLY to expect after leaving each one and entering space. Distance isn't usually an issue in dreams, so it shouldn't be with the moon. With knowledge comes power, though; I believe the problem with flying to the moon is that one gets so confused when they get to the atmosphere/space. Few people will be able to manage this completely foreign territory, and his or her attention might be stuck on it, causing some problems for the subconscious with getting 'stuck' there. I would suggest a moon-flying-hopeful to prepare beforehand by learning a bit about the atmosphere.
> ... As spockman said though, changing expectations and reality are essentially what I'm proposing also.



Nice idea  but as he says himself in the end  not needed.






> The problem with flying to the moon has to do with* perspective ratios.* *In order to have movement, you have to be moving relative to something else.* Once you get far enough away from the earth, you have nothing to gauge your movement against.  It's not like there are trees and lamp posts along the side of the road or anything.  Without these markers you lose all sense of movement which screws with your flight.
> 
> That's what makes flying directly to the moon difficult, and flying at the speed of light impossible.



This makes a lot of sense to me!






> That is an interesting point, *but I think I can get around it.Point a flashlight at the moon. Turn it on. Try and race the light ray to the moon. Use the ray of light as your reference, hopefully you will be matching it's speed and be able to see the end of the ray of light. Also, use the moon as a point of reference to some degree. Use the fact that it is getting larger and larger as you edge up on it as a way to gauge distance from your target.* If I had already transformed the world into an anime/video game to make my expectations for the fantastic, this should be doable.



Methods abound  creativity seems the key..






> Sure, you could do that...  But that would be like wanting a steak for dinner, but going about preparing it by first genetically engineering a cow.  *The more unnecessary steps you create, the farther you are from your goal. * You need to remain fluid in dreams and be able to abandon something that isn't working for you.
> 
> Second rule of dream control:  The more attention you give something, the more related detail it creates.  *When you method reaches the point where you need to start adding things for it to succeed, then it's become an unnecessary distraction.  The method you're trying to use is an obstacle to attaining your goal.
> *
> I can't really give a specific method to get to the moon without giving another unnecessary distraction to hook your attention.  But it doesn't have to be a difficult thing to accomplish.  Just keep your eye on the prize and ignore anything that isn't helpful to reaching your goals.



Loving the cow-thing! 






> I just thought of something that might simplify flying to the moon.  *Use the moon's gravitational pull.*  If you can get a feel for the gravity of the moon pulling you, that should make it much easier to fly there directly



Good advice by the read of it!






> I personally think that it is us to put limit to our dreams. We can't do something because we are born within the waking life and thus we've grown following its laws.
> On the dream plane, we must leave all of the waking life laws and embrace freedom.



This is what I personally think as well!



Here come the successful moon-flyers  only from in here - I wonder, how many more have accomplished this task of the year back then without wormholes..?





> In my successful flights to the Moon and Mars,* I fixed the issue by looking down at Earth and "zooming out" in a Google-Earth-like fashion. Though, the hard part about doing that proved to be slowing down and resuming normal movement and flight;* landing was a bitch, let me tell you. QFT







> Its not hard for me to get to the moon. I just fly up high into the sky, go into space, then fly straight to the moon.







> I had a lucid a week ago where I was staring at the moon, and then I got sucked up super fast and was on the surface of the moon looking at the earth. Then I got ripped off the surface through space. It was pretty intense.







> Here's my second dream on the moon goes on to cite







> I didn't even use worm holes when I went, I just started flying into the sky







> The first time I tried to get to the moon, I succeeded.





As the following posts go - WN actually steps back from this assertions, and accepts that there are other possibilities:





> ..
> 
> Awesome. Raven, Q, and I recently terraformed the Moon! In the City of Nowhere, there is a man, Jose, who grows strange sentient plants! He was in one of my first dreams of that city.
> 
> Awesome! Is it in your DJ? Come to the Tower and the Biodome.
> 
> Nice. Is it in your DJ?
> 
> That is cool! *The way I fly is also through repelling gravity!* Fascinating.
> ...



Check yourself, what he is answering to there - mostly _congratulating others for travelling without wormholes._
How then can it be that he has a truth to reveal of vast importance, if it does not cause him, to say that these people *must* have travelled the wormholes and now they do not remember?
That would be making sense in his system.

Even more strange, that he comes along with allegedly _using gravity all of a sudden_?
_How is it possible to remember a shared dream from long before the thread, where he simply seemed to have flown there with Raven?_
Okay - maybe they both didn´t perceive them that night.


He does behave here, as if the OP would indeed, and after all - have only been his private metaphors and not a revelation on the very fabric of the dream world.
Which as I said would have been a nice touch in the OP.



*How can you follow the following with a residue of acceptance..?*





> *The War of the Wyrms*
> 
> Eons ago, the god of This World, Nevergawn, The Puppetmaster of Puppetmasters, The One Who Loves Control, decided he would take control over all the wormholes leaving This World, Urth.
> 
> His archenemy, the One Who Loves Freedom, Gawn had, in the mind of Nevergawn, abandoned Urth to create a Dream Warrior Planet. 
> 
> *Nevergawn believed if he could control the wormholes, he could keep dreamers from leaving Urth, thus keeping them here and stealing their energy, and keeping them ignorant of other worlds.
> *
> Each wormhole was guarded by a great Wyrm, a cold drake, fierce and powerful with skin like a man, and eyes burning with a dark fire. Nevergawn and his army of demons declared war on the Wormhole Wyrms. The demons killed the wyrms over and over, but being immortal, the wyrms always came back to life.  *Finally, the demons ripped the Wyrms into tiny pieces to delay them from reforming. 
> ...



Marvellous - so - in my dreams, Nevergawn the Puppetmaster and his loyal space-demons, other diverse entities and worm-hole-parasites will sap away my very own personal energy and strength in my dreams??
 ::wtf:: 

And how practical - a built in hypothesis, why you maybe don´t instantly get infected by his views - you just do not perceive it - but of course it´s all there anyway..??






> *Don't take my word for it.
> *
> Try these tasks:
> 
> 1) Get to the Moon. 
> 
> (It's a Task of the Year, but very few have done it.)
> 
> 2) Perceive a wormhole.
> ...




Nice.
Just what we novices need..wink.gif





Rant over - it´s not I would not post this, if WN would still be around in his thread - maybe I even would have come to a better understanding of his way to interpret the world and maybe following such an exchange would have manifested something worth a bit more of a while - who knows.

The best I can imagine to come of this post of mine here would be having inspired people with the quotes.
Inspired to go flying into space in their dreams and having provided by repetition and overview once more all the wonderful tips and tricks for doing it!
Oh yeah - and this does definitively include going by wormholes and make it a game to find and help the poor ripped up wyrms - you should find some, when looking hard enough into the realm of your imagination!
smile.gif

But I am definitively not afraid of WN or anybody getting at me in which ever way in this context here ..tongue.gif
Just saying..

----------


## Sageous

^^ Interesting summary/rant, Stephl, thanks for sharing, and welcome to the curious world of WakingNomad!

If he were still here with us (and he may well be, because his last post was just a month go), I think Mr. Nomad's response would be something like:

"Wormholes are real."

Over time I've found it very difficult to argue with WakingNomad, but have never doubted his sincerity.  He consistently maintained that all this stuff (and more) is true, but, as you noticed, has been willing to accept that other truths may exist -- even if they're not as true as his!  :wink2: 

Enough apologizing for a man who I believe expects no apologies (and couldn't care less about such things)...Maybe you'll come on, WakingNomad, and clarify?

Aside from that, the even _more_ curious thing I noticed so many of the posts was a combination of assuming that travel to the moon is difficult and basing so much of this travel on the rules of the physical world. This could be because WakingNomad's OP built that complexity into the problem, I suppose, but travel to the moon is about as hard as crossing a street in a dream (hell, sometimes it's _harder_ to cross a street!).

It is exactly as hard to float one inch above a dreamscape's ground as it is to whisk yourself to the moon.  There is no light in dreams, so the speed of light does not matter; there is no space in dreams, so distance does not matter (and by extension, neither do wormholes, perspectives, etc); there is no physical energy in dreams, so propulsion doesn't matter; and so on.  All that matters is your imagination, and to keep it simple, as the Cusp said above:

"The more unnecessary steps you create, the farther you are from your goal."  Also, the more you imagine your goal is far away, the further away it will become; especially in dreams.

----------


## StephL

Yeah - fully agreed Sageous - and the below sentence leading to Cusp´s assertion is really funny!





> ..
> Sure, you could do that... But that would be like wanting a steak for dinner, but going about preparing it by first genetically engineering a cow. The more unnecessary steps you create, the farther you are from your goal. 
> ..



respect-039.gif


Edit: Important for me to know, that you believe in the sincerity behind WalkingNomad´s ideas.
This makes a huge difference.

----------


## Psionik

Concentration is all we need. With right amount of concentration in lucid dream everything becomes possible. 
That is also problem. Such concentration is hard to achieve and to hold.

Question: If I pull someone to LD, do I need to hold concentration for two peoples? I did an WILD with my wife. When we went to sleep I held her in my arms. she was asleep fast, I relaxed and visualized an simple tunnel. Or wormhole? Which lead to LD. As I took flight through that tunnel into dream I held my wife fast in embrace. She was like an anchor. It felt like very heavy load. Like she cant go with me. But I managed to bring her to large meadow. She looked lost somehow... I needed to tell her to concentrate, because I saw that she looked to be incoherent... And she was scared of surrounding. There was a castle in a forest few hundreds of meter away. There was howling of wolf in air. From forest there was flowing ground fog. It looked romantic. Somehow mystically, somehow peacefully. My wife was in fear. The castle was turned into museum. Morning I asked my wife about this, but she didn't remember anything.

----------


## shadowofwind

Hi.  Some more thoughts....

Clarifying my earlier comment about fighting in dreams:  My thought isn't that 'the spiritual world' is a safe and benevolent place.  My thought is that fighting with one's dream body against perceived dream characters and demons isn't very effective.  One sees this in the physical world also.  Macho cultures where people are obsessed with martial arts are not actually very strong relative to more scientific cultures that don't see power in that way.  And generally speaking, it doesn't work very well for individuals either.  In the united states, for instance, for most people kung fu or a gun isn't of very much use against a person's most important enemies.  Those methods are effective only against some of the weakest members of society, and even then changing one's own thinking and lifestyle usually has a bigger impact on ones own success and safety.  Likewise with the dream world.  Demons, such as I perceive them, can be extremely patient in human terms, since they're not as locked into the flow of time in quite the human way.  If such a spirit has the power and inclination to harm you, it might use drugs or disease or accidents against all your descendents 1000 years from now rather than attack you in a dream.  And they can be subtle, maybe if you know they're present at all its because their touch is already eating you.  Fighting them seems pretty much useless to me, because they infect the part of you that fights them and use it against you.  But if you are a more courageous and honest and fair person, maybe that helps.  Maybe a spirit of wrath isn't that far off from a spirit of retributive justice, and such spirits, so to speak, respect that to a degree or are constrained by the even subtler considerations of power that are real to them.  If you don't go out of your way to antagonize them, they're unlikely to trouble you.  Of course, sometimes the only right course of action puts us at war with something stronger than us, and we may suffer bad consequences, but that's the way it is.  And video-game-like lucid dream fighting still isn't going to help much in that case.

I'll try to say this another way.  I am exposed in my dreams.  Although I don't do a first-person-shooter kind of lucid dreaming very much, I'm usually aware of others in my dreams, and they affect me.  And yet, I seem to have far less trouble with demons and stalkers and whatnot than other people I've known who think of the spirit world in a more Manichean or Darwinian way.  It just doesn't look to me like their mindset is very effective, it seems to generate its own trouble.  And my lack of dream trouble doesn't appear to me to be because I'm shrinking away from conflict where I need to stand up for something.  If anything, it seems to me that the more paranoid kind of people, for lack of a better word, actually do a lot more shirking of responsibility because they're more wrapped up in their own self-generated dramas.

One other thing that I've said before that might be worth repeating:  Never assume that when you are told something in a dream that you did not read in a book or hear from anybody else that the fact it came to you psychically means that its more true or trustworthy somehow.  A dream guide or any other source of inspiration is usually half full of shit, however helpful it may be also.  It follows your lead and the thoughts of other people, so if you take it as an authority because its a spirit, then a lot of people are helping each other chase themselves around in circles.  This is maybe the biggest trap for psychically inclined people that there is.  Maybe its a blessing in disguise if it preys on character weaknesses that would otherwise expose you to even more destructive pitfalls.  But it catches everyone to varying degrees, everyone has to struggle to fight through it.

I think a lot of this is like surfing.  You are less powerful than the ocean.  You have to learn to navigate the waves, you can't overpower them.  To a large extent this seems to me to be a matter of character development, that compassion and emotional and intellectual honesty are tremendously important.  Wherever your weakness is, that's where you stumble, and force of will is only one element of what helps you regain your balance.  Force of will has to act in harmony with other virtues, its destructive on its own.  And individuals can't do it on their own either, we're part of a larger environment.  We need our spirit guides or gods, so to speak, and we need each other, and they need us.  If you look at what makes man so much more powerful than other animals, it has as at least as much to do with social organization as with the craftier part of our intelligence.  If a lion were smarter than you, the lion would still lose in a fight, because the lion would rarely get a chance to fight on its own terms that way.  Love is at least as important.  

This reminds me of another poster from a couple of years ago who said than when you seek self knowledge, you have to do it with love, or else what you get back is all twisted around and misleading.  I think that's right, and its something I need to learn better, so I thank them for putting it that way.

Gotta go, plane will board momentarily.

----------


## Eonnn

Absolutely agree with you Shadowofwind, seems like I've been drawn back to this thread for a reason and I can see why.

I'm one of the few that mentioned fighting demons on a nightly basis to 'step up my game' as it were, because at the time that's what I felt needed to be done and to be brutally honest (pardon the pun) it's not like I had much of a choice in the 'matter' (again, sorry). For one thing I am a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and I realise that's just an excuse, it's just how I have dealt with things all my life - something I'm currently learning to change in my life. 

I think a large portion of this drama is due to the western mind-set we have been brought up with, that is to fear instead of love. Why do we watch horror movies? action movies? the news? it's all negative stuff that needs to be done away with in my humble opinion. To contrast, easterners have a much different mind-set... while people like me fear the worst they hope for the best. We also learn differently on an individual level some better by visual means and others through sound or experience; which could [partially] account for why people like myself and WakingNomad failed to realise the implications of what we were posting. It seems we all hold piece's of the puzzle but I think it's important to hold onto your piece like a chessboard, but at the same time realise we're all 'in it to win it' or more accurately put: we're all in it together.

Shadowofwind... I definitely like the sound of an infinite ocean of love and I will gladly surf those waves with all of you  ::D:

----------


## floatinghead

> Hi.  Some more thoughts....
> 
> Clarifying my earlier comment about fighting in dreams:  My thought isn't that 'the spiritual world' is a safe and benevolent place.  My thought is that fighting with one's dream body against perceived dream characters and demons isn't very effective.  One sees this in the physical world also.  Macho cultures where people are obsessed with martial arts are not actually very strong relative to more scientific cultures that don't see power in that way.  And generally speaking, it doesn't work very well for individuals either.  In the united states, for instance, for most people kung fu or a gun isn't of very much use against a person's most important enemies.  Those methods are effective only against some of the weakest members of society, and even then changing one's own thinking and lifestyle usually has a bigger impact on ones own success and safety.  Likewise with the dream world.  Demons, such as I perceive them, can be extremely patient in human terms, since they're not as locked into the flow of time in quite the human way.  If such a spirit has the power and inclination to harm you, it might use drugs or disease or accidents against all your descendents 1000 years from now rather than attack you in a dream.  And they can be subtle, maybe if you know they're present at all its because their touch is already eating you.  Fighting them seems pretty much useless to me, because they infect the part of you that fights them and use it against you.  But if you are a more courageous and honest and fair person, maybe that helps.  Maybe a spirit of wrath isn't that far off from a spirit of retributive justice, and such spirits, so to speak, respect that to a degree or are constrained by the even subtler considerations of power that are real to them.  If you don't go out of your way to antagonize them, they're unlikely to trouble you.  Of course, sometimes the only right course of action puts us at war with something stronger than us, and we may suffer bad consequences, but that's the way it is.  And video-game-like lucid dream fighting still isn't going to help much in that case.
> 
> I'll try to say this another way.  I am exposed in my dreams.  Although I don't do a first-person-shooter kind of lucid dreaming very much, I'm usually aware of others in my dreams, and they affect me.  And yet, I seem to have far less trouble with demons and stalkers and whatnot than other people I've known who think of the spirit world in a more Manichean or Darwinian way.  It just doesn't look to me like their mindset is very effective, it seems to generate its own trouble.  And my lack of dream trouble doesn't appear to me to be because I'm shrinking away from conflict where I need to stand up for something.  If anything, it seems to me that the more paranoid kind of people, for lack of a better word, actually do a lot more shirking of responsibility because they're more wrapped up in their own self-generated dramas.
> 
> One other thing that I've said before that might be worth repeating:  Never assume that when you are told something in a dream that you did not read in a book or hear from anybody else that the fact it came to you psychically means that its more true or trustworthy somehow.  A dream guide or any other source of inspiration is usually half full of shit, however helpful it may be also.  It follows your lead and the thoughts of other people, so if you take it as an authority because its a spirit, then a lot of people are helping each other chase themselves around in circles.  This is maybe the biggest trap for psychically inclined people that there is.  Maybe its a blessing in disguise if it preys on character weaknesses that would otherwise expose you to even more destructive pitfalls.  But it catches everyone to varying degrees, everyone has to struggle to fight through it.
> 
> I think a lot of this is like surfing.  You are less powerful than the ocean.  You have to learn to navigate the waves, you can't overpower them.  To a large extent this seems to me to be a matter of character development, that compassion and emotional and intellectual honesty are tremendously important.  Wherever your weakness is, that's where you stumble, and force of will is only one element of what helps you regain your balance.  Force of will has to act in harmony with other virtues, its destructive on its own.  And individuals can't do it on their own either, we're part of a larger environment.  We need our spirit guides or gods, so to speak, and we need each other, and they need us.  If you look at what makes man so much more powerful than other animals, it has as at least as much to do with social organization as with the craftier part of our intelligence.  If a lion were smarter than you, the lion would still lose in a fight, because the lion would rarely get a chance to fight on its own terms that way.  Love is at least as important.  
> ...



I agree with 99% of what you are saying here mate. I have NEVER gone out of my way to find and fight 'bad guys' in any shape or form, I view the dreaming as a spiritual realm and like to encounter any being with a positive outlook

However, Saturday night I woke from a WILD to find Freddy-freaking-Kruger in my bedroom randomly attacking me! My base reaction was what anybody would do in this situation with little time to think - defend myself (physically) and I pulled him apart and destroyed the parts since I knew that he would reform. He only scared me a little, really I just wanted to move onto more important aspects of my dream (where I then went to meet my daughter) but found the rest of my dream less controlled than normal, like I was weaker in some way.

----------


## tP97

> Hi. Some more thoughts....
> 
> Clarifying my earlier comment about fighting in dreams: My thought isn't that 'the spiritual world' is a safe and benevolent place. My thought is that fighting with one's dream body against perceived dream characters and demons isn't very effective. One sees this in the physical world also. Macho cultures where people are obsessed with martial arts are not actually very strong relative to more scientific cultures that don't see power in that way. And generally speaking, it doesn't work very well for individuals either. In the united states, for instance, for most people kung fu or a gun isn't of very much use against a person's most important enemies. Those methods are effective only against some of the weakest members of society, and even then changing one's own thinking and lifestyle usually has a bigger impact on ones own success and safety. Likewise with the dream world. Demons, such as I perceive them, can be extremely patient in human terms, since they're not as locked into the flow of time in quite the human way. If such a spirit has the power and inclination to harm you, it might use drugs or disease or accidents against all your descendents 1000 years from now rather than attack you in a dream. And they can be subtle, maybe if you know they're present at all its because their touch is already eating you. Fighting them seems pretty much useless to me, because they infect the part of you that fights them and use it against you. But if you are a more courageous and honest and fair person, maybe that helps. Maybe a spirit of wrath isn't that far off from a spirit of retributive justice, and such spirits, so to speak, respect that to a degree or are constrained by the even subtler considerations of power that are real to them. If you don't go out of your way to antagonize them, they're unlikely to trouble you. Of course, sometimes the only right course of action puts us at war with something stronger than us, and we may suffer bad consequences, but that's the way it is. And video-game-like lucid dream fighting still isn't going to help much in that case.
> 
> I'll try to say this another way. I am exposed in my dreams. Although I don't do a first-person-shooter kind of lucid dreaming very much, I'm usually aware of others in my dreams, and they affect me. And yet, I seem to have far less trouble with demons and stalkers and whatnot than other people I've known who think of the spirit world in a more Manichean or Darwinian way. It just doesn't look to me like their mindset is very effective, it seems to generate its own trouble. And my lack of dream trouble doesn't appear to me to be because I'm shrinking away from conflict where I need to stand up for something. If anything, it seems to me that the more paranoid kind of people, for lack of a better word, actually do a lot more shirking of responsibility because they're more wrapped up in their own self-generated dramas.
> 
> One other thing that I've said before that might be worth repeating: Never assume that when you are told something in a dream that you did not read in a book or hear from anybody else that the fact it came to you psychically means that its more true or trustworthy somehow. A dream guide or any other source of inspiration is usually half full of shit, however helpful it may be also. It follows your lead and the thoughts of other people, so if you take it as an authority because its a spirit, then a lot of people are helping each other chase themselves around in circles. This is maybe the biggest trap for psychically inclined people that there is. Maybe its a blessing in disguise if it preys on character weaknesses that would otherwise expose you to even more destructive pitfalls. But it catches everyone to varying degrees, everyone has to struggle to fight through it.
> 
> I think a lot of this is like surfing. You are less powerful than the ocean. You have to learn to navigate the waves, you can't overpower them. To a large extent this seems to me to be a matter of character development, that compassion and emotional and intellectual honesty are tremendously important. Wherever your weakness is, that's where you stumble, and force of will is only one element of what helps you regain your balance. Force of will has to act in harmony with other virtues, its destructive on its own. And individuals can't do it on their own either, we're part of a larger environment. We need our spirit guides or gods, so to speak, and we need each other, and they need us. If you look at what makes man so much more powerful than other animals, it has as at least as much to do with social organization as with the craftier part of our intelligence. If a lion were smarter than you, the lion would still lose in a fight, because the lion would rarely get a chance to fight on its own terms that way. Love is at least as important. 
> ...



Well , it is pretty fun to fight like you're in a videogame because you can actually feel the game , though you might be right that we cannot fight off the demons but we can at least repel them? We can repel them using our energy as a sort of barrier that destroys all evil that enters in it. Well , I can pretty much relate this to magicka concept and reiki concept , we can channel our energy to form a barrier on us or on anyone else , as we can do that in  real life (considering spiritual stuff to be true) then we can easily do it in our dreams as we just need to send a shock wave , creating a barrier around us. I say that because I believe that if shared dreaming is real and the other planes do exist then , so do the real world magic arts . I found the explanation which a person gave me to be pretty logical for reiki and magicka. What do you think? I believe that If there is an astral plane or dream plane then a lot of things taught by many religions and books are also true. What do you think?

----------


## shadowofwind

> Well , it is pretty fun to fight like you're in a videogame because you can actually feel the game , though you might be right that we cannot fight off the demons but we can at least repel them? We can repel them using our energy as a sort of barrier that destroys all evil that enters in it. Well , I can pretty much relate this to magicka concept and reiki concept , we can channel our energy to form a barrier on us or on anyone else , as we can do that in  real life (considering spiritual stuff to be true) then we can easily do it in our dreams as we just need to send a shock wave , creating a barrier around us. I say that because I believe that if shared dreaming is real and the other planes do exist then , so do the real world magic arts . I found the explanation which a person gave me to be pretty logical for reiki and magicka. What do you think? I believe that If there is an astral plane or dream plane then a lot of things taught by many religions and books are also true. What do you think?



I think that its not possible to "destroy all evil that enters in" your energy while simultaneously enjoying the feel of violence.  The demon isn't outside of you, it is in you also.

I think its worth keeping in mind that the sounds and visual images in a dream are only one fairly superficial part of what's going on. 

I think that its not possible to get away with anything.  You can push some things away for a while, but every bit of who you are comes back to you eventually.

I think that mystical stuff is real, but most of what people say or write about it is still wrong.  These subjects are not understood well.  People who are temperate in their beliefs, and only claim what they know, have trouble scraping together enough compelling claims for a successful book or cult.  





> I agree with 99% of what you are saying here mate. I have NEVER gone out of my way to find and fight 'bad guys' in any shape or form, I view the dreaming as a spiritual realm and like to encounter any being with a positive outlook
> 
> However, Saturday night I woke from a WILD to find Freddy-freaking-Kruger in my bedroom randomly attacking me!



I agree that stuff like this inevitably happens to everyone in one way or another, either with violence or with sex.  My point was mainly that its connected to who we are, that its not external and objective.  This might seem obvious and indisputable, but in the past there seems to have been less consensus about this on this site than there is now.

I've never watched a horror movie or played violent video games, so I don't dream about that sort of thing.  But some of that stuff bleeds over into my awareness from other people, and I've got my own issues that connect with it.  I think its not healthy to get too far away from ourselves emotionally, so there's something to be said for expressing that stuff.  Its unavoidable.  But at the same time, doing more of it will never be the key to overcoming it.  That would be kind of like drinking for sobriety or fucking for chastity.





> Absolutely agree with you Shadowofwind, seems like I've been drawn back to this thread for a reason and I can see why.
> 
> I'm one of the few that mentioned fighting demons on a nightly basis to 'step up my game' as it were, because at the time that's what I felt needed to be done and to be brutally honest (pardon the pun) it's not like I had much of a choice in the 'matter' (again, sorry). For one thing I am a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and I realise that's just an excuse, it's just how I have dealt with things all my life - something I'm currently learning to change in my life. 
> 
> Shadowofwind... I definitely like the sound of an infinite ocean of love and I will gladly surf those waves with all of you



Thanks for sharing, and I wish you the best with what you've been dealing with.  I'm sure your progress helps all of us a little bit.

Although I don't have bad dreams, I have a type of bad karma, for lack of a better word.  I think its pretty much the same thing in a different form.  So although I make some observations and express some opinions about what I see, I really don't have an answer.

A difficulty with the 'ocean of love' of course is that we're prone to turn it into something sick and manipulative, such as one sees with pretty much any charismatic guru.  So we all feel isolated, yet simultaneously push people away because we're trying to protect our own integrity of identity.  I don't know if I'd be comfortable sharing dreams with my kids for instance, they need their own space to develop in.  I don't mean that as a criticism of floatinghead, he could be in a healthy place with it.  I'm just saying that for everyone there's some degree of power and intimacy where things start to go rotten on them.  I think that in our current condition, we can probably only handle a moderate amount of dream-sharing type stuff before it becomes detrimental.  But of course we've got to deal with whatever it is that we experience in life, we can't just turn it off either.

Of the people I've known who have the strongest 'psychic' experiences, at least half have mental health issues.  So the easy, skeptical response would be that its just all delusional.  But its not delusional.  Or that its all evil spirits.  But I don't think that's quite right either.  What's unhealthy is unhealthy, but the best part of ourselves is mixed up with it also, so we just have to work with it, we can't turn away from it.  This is sort of my perspective on 'demons' too, I actually don't think its possible for us to redeem ourselves without finding more constructive uses for the predatory parts of ourselves.  For instance, if you could just cut out the aggressive part of yourself, you wouldn't have courage either.  And I don't think a person could completely shut down the cruel part of themselves without diminishing their empathy also, and their strength to do what's right even when its difficult.

Best wishes.

----------


## Psionik

My LD and AP are nearly all harmonic. Also normal dreams... Even if I can look on good horror film. Or play games such as Fallout3  :smiley:  Well I couldn't play game such as Manhunt, I have repulsive feelings to it.  The key is not to have no thoughts about bad things, even I have often my bad days... the key is to be unattached to them.  To be as unattached observer of things as possible and to have as little of volition(as to wanting something), and feel as much freedom as possible. Freedom we have. The light is in US. We see darkness only if we can't see light. When we are blinding ourselves. We have only to see it. Even slave may feel free if he is strong in his mind. We can be slave of ourselves, of our bad habits. 

We all have dark side. It is not there not to battle it. It is there to observe it, to understand it and to live with it. To try to fill it up with our inner light.

He who likes to battle he would receive battle. And that is not leading to inner peace. To knowledge. To growth.

----------


## floatinghead

wow - that is allot to ingest, allot of concrete statements though. I am not sure if I entirely agree with you in regards to Demon's/negative forces being solely something which originates from within the individual dreamer; unless you are also suggesting that demon's that appear outside of ourselves are just manifestations originating from other PEOPLE rather than entities in their own right. I guess this would make some sense

You never watch horror movies or play violent video games?? WOW- lol! Your missing out  :smiley:  I think, as you pointed out Demons are part of us and so perhaps by avoiding everything negative and violent is like trying to not accept part of ourselves? While human we cannot simply take that part out of us - but I admire the line of thinking, and perhaps you are right in doing it, but we were put in these human bodies for a reason, whether to accept our animal instincts or fight against it I do not know though. I would suggest though that ignoring/avoiding and fighting head on (demons) amounts to the same thing - it still comes back and is only dispelled for a short time. You could also view 'demons' within a different context, if you think of demons encompassing everything which is entropic - then perhaps we are just putting a 'face' to disorder? or vice versa,  then they CAN exist as outside entities. 

It is interesting that you mention mental health issues with psychic experiences- it does indeed sadly seem to be the case. It is almost as if once you start to tune in to other possibilities, to let your grip off this mutually agreed physical universe then you are starting to see what lies 'behind the curtain' but in doing so start to float away from this reality. 

Any type of real Physic experiences are VERY confusing, unless you are naturally talented from birth it seems that nothing can be trusted. It reminds me of how (in x-men) anyone trying to use the cerebro who is not the professor is overloaded with information. There is just too much information out there to understand and comprehend without somekind of guide to help you along the way. It has been my experience, when going into someone else's dream space, that even though I have never been there before I can spot the odd thing around which belongs to me - meaning we are ALWAYS projecting our own thoughts wherever we go. So trying to figure out a specific outcome while subtly (not knowingly) influencing it by your preference to the outcome will give you a false result (an imagined one not an actual one) which seems to be the route of the problem for everybody.

On saturday I had another shared dream planned with my daughter, but first I met with my dream guide, he looked  different again and I asked him why this was - he started to compare himself, his experience to Jesus Christ and then all of a sudden was in a picture frame, as a pirate (black hair and beard read pirate hat and clothes) telling me he was going to hunt me down to the edges of the universe. I walked away from him and found my daughter holding my hand which she then took me to our tree house, and then showing me all of the new things she did to it.

The next day I was telling my daughter about this, about our meeting, she simply made some adjustments to the treehouse, and when she expected me to come I arrived and then she showed me around. I then told her about my dream guide acting weird (since she knows him pretty well because she gave him to me from an egg) she then went onto to tell me about a book at school she read the previous year - about a pirate in a painting who would jump out of the frame and chase after the kids - when I asked her what the pirate looked like she said he had BLACK hair and a RED coat and hat. So this is either a weirdly specific coincidence or there was some 'bleed through' from her subconscious into my dream. I have no idea - but if the later is true then it would mean that there would be so many different parts of a person which you could potentially connect to accidentally, and possibly do while we dream

----------


## Psionik

floatinghead what will happen if you ignore threat of some entity, what is the worst, what could happen? 
In my experience following: 
1.if you are too submerged into dream reality you will die. Not really mind you... Only in dream. 
2. If you are not so attached then you feel attack, but there is little harm coming to your dream body. 
3. You can be so unattached, that attack on you will meet either totally inviolable body, hard as hardest diamond(You will feel little to nothing). Or all attack will go straight through you(as through ghost and again you feel little, to nothing) 

Most often I experience third one. When there are some violent entities. But most often there are no such entities. And when there are such entities, then there is often no attack but they run away. But I want only to communicate!  :smiley:  I even tried to summon them as I supposed they would like to come... to do harm(to me). So I would have bigger possibility to find someone coherent(and not visibly demented- like sleeping)... I have no luck  :Sad:  Astral is even worse. It looks like nearly everybody coherent fears me, even if I'm not violent. I feel quite lonely sometimes in astral...

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## floatinghead

> floatinghead what will happen if you ignore threat of some entity, what is the worst, what could happen? 
> In my experience following: 
> 1.if you are too submerged into dream reality you will die. Not really mind you... Only in dream. 
> 2. If you are not so attached then you feel attack, but there is little harm coming to your dream body. 
> 3. You can be so unattached, that attack on you will meet either totally inviolable body, hard as hardest diamond(You will feel little to nothing). Or all attack will go straight through you(as through ghost and again you feel little, to nothing) 
> 
> Most often I experience third one. When there are some violent entities. But most often there are no such entities. And when there are such entities, then there is often no attack but they run away. But I want only to communicate!  I even tried to summon them as I supposed they would like to come... to do harm(to me). So I would have bigger possibility to find someone coherent(and not visibly demented- like sleeping)... I have no luck  Astral is even worse. It looks like nearly everybody coherent fears me, even if I'm not violent. I feel quite lonely sometimes in astral...



This is a VERY good question, I cannot pretend to know the answer, but I can give a guess based on accounts of others. First of all, I think it would be impossible to die from an 'attack' (like physical death) But if you ignore it it may do you harm. 

Consider this: Raven reported going to see her friend and trying to 'heal' her within the dreaming. She would travel to her bedside and do a bit of magic to sooth the body. When she got there she reported seeing a dark entity taking energy away from her friend (while the friend lay down 'asleep') - a demon if you will. 

The question here is: was this demon causing her to become ill, or was the illness being perceived as a demon? As I stated before I am very much a believer in the phrase 'as above so below' so I believe that (if this actually happened) both scenarios are true and exist in parallel, are the same thing. 

So to sum up my babbling, I actually think (basing my assumption on scenarios given like the one above) that doing nothing (which would be either not defending yourself from the demon/disease which would also mean not going to see a doctor) would indeed be harmful. I think Demons are there for a reason and they should not be ignored as they will keep on coming back stronger. 

But then... It depends on the demon I suppose. For example, if you look at practices such as CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) it would encourage you to not focus on negative thoughts or ideas - and perhaps that is where demons are born? So perhaps if they are small and weak then just ignoring the demons may be the best course of action - and then if THAT fails you need to consider taking another form of action?

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## floatinghead

If you want to seek out some 'demons' go down to the basement, get scared, keep walking down until you find them

I did this once and it was not pretty...

If you want to find other people in the astral - let yourself go; fly with the intent you will search for someone and you will find someone  :smiley: 

Also feel free to drop in in my tree house any time  :smiley:

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## Psionik

Demons shouldn't be only bad... I think, they are mirroring our thoughts... maybe. Maybe there are good ones.  Maybe there are bad angels, not only good. But I'm telling now my suppositions, I don't know from my experience.

I tried a few times to heal my body out of astral. Strange experience... I actually felt astral hands inside real body as some energy. Not quite material, but not immaterial. I'm not sure whether it helped  too. I tried also to unlock paranormal abilities this way (without any results).

I tried to shield friend's "real" body from dark cloud I saw in astral... once when I projected to her room. Successfully, because as I said, nearly everything fears me for some reason. I could well understand that maybe malevolent entities are logically afraid of me, as I would do anything to protect anybody else... I feel in astral great energy inside my astral body. 
I remember as it was once unleashed when I was bitten to neck by energy deficient girl that was turned by energetic vampires. That bite make way for my energy out of astral body. It was blinding. That girl was immediately full of energy and turned to glowing being... I was glowing too  :smiley:  and I didn't feel any lowering of my energy from that. Concentration is good for charging energy. This attack was originated from vampires who feared to attack me directly, after I destroyed their base and every one vampire in it, and liberated normally dreaming people. I mean destroyed as real thing. I literally ripped them to pieces by hands. They are out of equation for good. I felt it clearly. And on my travels, I couldn't find them again. Well, at least I didn't find any other vampires in my neighborhood. Then, I have feeling something wrong is happening some 5 km from my house. There is some dark barrier forming. I will see  :smiley:  ) I tend to think, that things I find in astral are probably real... In LD not so much. I normally allow attack on myself, as it is uninteresting for me. It can't do any harm to me. But I can't stand to see harm done to others. 

Negative entities can't become stronger from trying to fight me. I don't invest my energy to fight them needlessly... And I'm staying emotionally in balance. I don't invest energy to fear, I don't invest energy to hate. I think, that are two things they could use against me. And feed of me.

Sorry I'm talking more about astral projection. I have much greater experience from it, than from LD. But again, I think, dream is happening in astral, only our imagination shrouds our view on more real things.

Do you think I'm not trying to meet someone? Of course I'm trying.  :smiley: 

I maintain my surrounding free of negative pests  :smiley:  It is not necessary to do it consciously... It seems like I'm making surrounding less hospitable for them.

I would like to meet you  :smiley:  thank you. I don't know wheter I would be succesfull. I try to do joined astral travel with my brother. We had maybe 1 meeting experienced. That is not looking very good.

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## floatinghead

Oh I see! Sorry I mis-understood!! Sometimes when people talk about the Astral they mean lucid dreaming. And often times the two overlap so it is difficult to see a clear divide. When I talk about OBE's I am talking about what you refer to Astral projection. And I agree, I have not encountered much in the way of anything, people occasionally - but usually my OBE's (astral projections) merge into a lucid dream after a few minutes so it is difficult to tell if they are people in the astral or not. Dreaming is the best place to meet anything - but then DREAMING is confusing and is very difficult to tell the difference between a real person and a thought form (dream character). I don't know if you can access my 'tree' in the astral, I assumed it existed only in the dreaming.

But... the tree does exist in real life as well, so maybe part of it bleeds through into the astral? I don't know

When you have astral projections how do you see your surroundings? Do they appear exactly the same? Slightly different? Do you sometimes see houses or objects that are in the Astral and not in real life?

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## Psionik

Yes. OBE means out of body experience... And as such, it is possible to do it into astral, mental, budhic... and others dimensions. Lucid dreaming, while it feels more concrete than normal dream, and also has better consistency... and is much less confusing... is certainly and clearly something else than astral dimension. I know it by feeling... by kind of thought process allowed to exist in it... and also that dimensions I described have their different feelings, conditions, thought process allowed... It is complex feeling. Hard to describe. Also unnecessary, he who travels, he knows  :smiley: 

If you allow attachment, imagination, thought process to alter your perception, it could either lead to LD or to waking. My lucid dreams have got more taste of astral dimension as time and my exercises went by. But they are LD, because I let imagination free. Then again, I'm unattached explorer (or as much unattached as I can be) even in LD. I use minimum of needed imagination for things to do in LD.

I'm trying now to do LD also(mainly to try to connect with dreaming people), and I'm not very experienced in it. It needs to use imagination to do wild and I exercised to do travels, in whose I suppress imagination as much as possible. It become reflex, so I have difficulties to hold flying through imagined tunnel for example, or to imagine detailed picture. I can't do DILD, the reality check doesn't function by me for some reason. Even if there are fantastic things, for me in dream, they are real. Even if I question reality in dream I would conclude that dream is real. So WILD is for me the only way.

Real things have their counterpart in astral and some also in mental dimension. I don't know whether it is real astral thing as such. But: Astral is easily adopting imagination, and I thing even when we are in this dimension. So, things which took thought process to build start to form in astral sooner than in real world. And also last there for longer than they exist in real world. Real things appear in astral little surreal  :smiley:  As our perception of things is subjective the formed thing will be little different. Also, the more people see that thing, the more stable and real is looks like in astral. At least it seems to me so. I see things long before they exists. I saw my house(I alone projected it) before it was build. Some things looked different, some the same as I build it in real world. Sometimes a thought comes through my mind, that I have to do (and build) all things I see existing in astral so I wouldn't create some paradox. Then there is thing with parallel dimensions... maybe I see in astral things from them. 

Also what I wrote about battle in astral, I had only two such big battles in more than thousand travels. And without any problems. There were some... I would say Intimidations... Maybe. Something like skirmish without doing much of anything else... So maybe I can really clean my surrounding of harmful entities... Or maybe, as you maybe know, astral dimensions have something like levels. Lowers feels more dark, higher more idyllic... The feelings of them tells me, that they are all astral. The harmful entities could reside mainly in lower ones.

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## floatinghead

Very interesting! - thanks for sharing  :smiley: 

It is a shame you do not have a dream journal - I would love to read your journeys!

Very smart to keep yourself unattached, I think that is the key in discovering 'outside' entities and it is a much better way to see things without your own 'clutter' mixing it all up, but I also see how this can be an issue while trying to travel TO places. There are a number of different techniques you can use, though I would suggest trying to create a portal. First 'charge' yourself as you have mentioned doing, then start chanting the name of place or person you want to visit , say it over and over and feel the power surge through you - then put your hands in front of you and start to create a portal with that power, once it is formed jump through and you should arrive at your destination  :smiley:

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## tP97

Can anyone tell me this different dimensions thingy?Also how to get in them?

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## shadowofwind

> Demons shouldn't be only bad... I think, they are mirroring our thoughts... maybe. Maybe there are good ones.  Maybe there are bad angels, not only good. But I'm telling now my suppositions, I don't know from my experience.



As I have experienced them, demons aren't good or bad, they're mixed, like people, and the same demon can be either mostly bad or mostly good depending on how you think about your interaction with it:  you are part of the determination of that.  I think it works that way at least a little with experiences with other people also.

I think that the ostensibly 100% good angels are mostly ones that can't admit a shortcoming, and are connected to people who can't admit their own shortcomings, or can't stand the thought of being somewhat at the mercy of gods that aren't entirely trustworthy.  Maybe there's an eternally perfect God behind the mess somewhere, but by the time that God comes through as an intuition its distorted by who we are.  As I see it, if you hypothesize that our "higher selves" are imperfect, but some of them believe themselves to be perfect, then an awful lot of esoteric stuff makes sense that doesn't make sense otherwise.

I don't make a distinction between angels and demons.  Even the words angels and demons are only very approximately suited to what I experience, which doesn't resolve as individual 'beings' for the most part.  Since they don't have identities that are tied to individual bodies like people do, its more like expressions of a big conscious fractal.

A notable characteristic of the 'demon' I have interacted with is it never says anything more than once.  I haven't experienced it much at all in dreams or intuitions for a couple of years now, which might mean that what it said before is still applicable, or I'm learning the same things in other ways, or its miffed and is giving me the silent treatment pending my demise.

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## shadowofwind

> I am not sure if I entirely agree with you in regards to Demon's/negative forces being solely something which originates from within the individual dreamer;



I did not mean to suggest that it originates solely from within the dreamer.  That's an important part of it though.





> unless you are also suggesting that demon's that appear outside of ourselves are just manifestations originating from other PEOPLE rather than entities in their own right.



That's part of it too, as I experience it, though I would not put ourselves in a superior position to the demons.  You could also say that we are manifestations of them.





> You never watch horror movies or play violent video games?? WOW- lol! Your missing out  I think, as you pointed out Demons are part of us and so perhaps by avoiding everything negative and violent is like trying to not accept part of ourselves?



This the same as how people react when I tell them I don't drink alcohol or smoke weed, that I must be motivated by pride or suppressing something.  I don't think I am.  It appears to me that I'm already as uninhibited as most people are when they're drunk or stoned, which is part of the effect they're after, and for me I don't see that the impairment would add anything.  Similarly, over at slashdot.org people have accused me of moral pretense because I don't like child porn, and they can't imagine any other possible motivation, apparently.  I do often listen to hard music like Iron Maiden or Black Sabbath though.  I don't think that people who don't care for it are hiding from themselves.

If I wanted the experience of a horror movie, maybe I'd just kill people directly.  I realize that sounds extreme, since the movie is very much less wrong, being a more superficial thought experiment, and we imagine there are no 'real' victims.  But vicarious cruelty is an essential part of the horror experience, and there is always another side to that.  "There is nothing real that does not become manifest."  Or maybe "as above, so below", using your or Crowley's terminology.  Where does all the disease and 'natural evil' in the world like tsunami's come from?  Its not random, and though it looks inevitable based on our understanding of nature, how nature works is closely connected to who we are.  There are other dynamics it can express, even though those realities would seem very strange compared to what we're accustomed to.  In other words, I'm suggesting that what we regard as our universe is actually only a very narrow and relatively extreme sliver of a much larger multi-verse.  I'm not sure I "know" this, but a lot of what I do know seems to point strongly towards that.

There is of course the practical matter that we've both mentioned, that its counterproductive to suppress our desires too much.  So maybe its just as well that most people don't know the full consequences of who they are, and aren't equipped to contrast it to anything radically different, because they'd be paralyzed by guilt.  But it seems to me that anyone who is interested in shared dreaming should probably become interested in this issue also, because its not exclusively your own mind that you're playing in.  Your evil desire makes you dangerous, and there are limits to how well it can be quarantined.  I don't mean this as a condemnation of you, I'm the same way, and just saying how I see it.

Some aspects of human experience are not morally acceptable to me.  I recognize that I'm just one in billions of people, and their destiny counts as much as mine does, but I still have to respond to what I see.  This choice comes first, then my paranormal dream experiences follow from that, as I look towards finding a solution.  Or, as an opposite and maybe slightly more true way of looking at it, the supernatural intuition comes first, and is what forces the moral perception.  In either case, the subject of spiritual growth, and the related subjects of shared dreaming or astral projection, are inextricably connected to the moral subject for me.  Of course other people are going to have different motives, since we're all different, and that's good.  But I'm only interested in cooperating insofar as this seems to be compatible with what I'm after, that what I want has some synergy with what they want.

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## Psionik

> Very smart to keep yourself unattached, I think that is the key in discovering 'outside' entities and it is a much better way to see things without your own 'clutter' mixing it all up, but I also see how this can be an issue while trying to travel TO places. There are a number of different techniques you can use, though I would suggest trying to create a portal. First 'charge' yourself as you have mentioned doing, then start chanting the name of place or person you want to visit , say it over and over and feel the power surge through you - then put your hands in front of you and start to create a portal with that power, once it is formed jump through and you should arrive at your destination



I found it as way to be free of things that hold me back in my body, to be free of skeptic thoughts. To be unattached doesn't mean for me to believe though... It means for me to be in balance. I can try to do what you are suggesting... As long as it wouldn't disturb my concentration, balance, observer state...  Normally I travel by running or flying. Running seems to be more reliable for me, flying needs more imagination then super-fast running. By LD this wouldn't be much problem though. Well if I don't rely on reality part of my surrounding... Creating portal- I tried to think that doors in my house are leading to other places... And it lead to be often in some fantasy world. It felt like I lost connection to reality. Or astral reality... Or what  :smiley: 





> Can anyone tell me this different dimensions thingy?Also how to get in them?



I have theory that there are points of detachment running from time where separation to astral is possible, till you are at point where no separation is possible, because you lost interest to do separation(I identify this as meditation. Concentration on existence. Without any thought.

shadowofwind I believe that perfection is hard to reach. As I read somewhere, One can be saint as good human, or saint as totally evil human. But even saint doesn't mean to be perfect. It means hard work and to have better trained mind than other people. To be less attached to only material world.

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## Eonnn

> Real things have their counterpart in astral and some also in mental dimension. I don't know whether it is real astral thing as such. But: Astral is easily adopting imagination, and I thing even when we are in this dimension. So, things which took thought process to build start to form in astral sooner than in real world. And also last there for longer than they exist in real world. Real things appear in astral little surreal  As our perception of things is subjective the formed thing will be little different. Also, the more people see that thing, the more stable and real is looks like in astral. At least it seems to me so. I see things long before they exists. I saw my house(I alone projected it) before it was build. Some things looked different, some the same as I build it in real world. Sometimes a thought comes through my mind, that I have to do (and build) all things I see existing in astral so I wouldn't create some paradox. Then there is thing with parallel dimensions... maybe I see in astral things from them.





Appreciate the lengthy descriptions, in particular your view on how the current paradigm is changing in regards to solid objects appearing quicker in the astral. For me I have always considered astral and dream planes to be the same but I can see now how they are different yet intrinsically linked with this reality too.

I have a dark fear that I was bitten by a psychic vampire so I will see you tonight and perhaps you can heal me like you did the other person. Who knows maybe I can possibly point you to some more. This may just be my imagination running rampant or there may be more to it I really can't say for sure. Having said that please bare In mind I have just recovered from psychosis and still in recovery mode.

One common theme I am seeing here is that most people have vivid visualisations in their head during the day it seems? For me this doesn't happen, at least not all the time (heck it hardly happens at all) I am more of a thinker/feeler and move around in these realms based largely on vibes because I lack that visual clarity in waking life. So for you to hunt down these beings which you believed were vampires could also be hunting down regular people too. Food for thought anyway.

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## StephL

Well known I do not follow you in for a longer distance shadowofwind - but I like your way of thinking about these aspects.

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## Psionik

The vampires in astral didn't felt like normal people, normal people were there... They were felt more like something otherworldly. For some reason I know, they could be destroyed, but humans can't. Maybe they are something like semi-sentient automatons. I don't know. I try not to believe things, I try to know things. I don't want to live in delusions.

I had second encounter with vampires, but that was indirect, they used energy deficient people. They were deficient because other vampires wanted to harm me. I knew it, as turned peoples ran to me. They sent that people to me. I felt the difference. I didn't do any harm to them, only pumped them by my energy, and that people turned from their wild status to normal (well as normal as you would see demented people. Because I see normal people in astral moving like they are not perceptive fully on environment I'm/they are in). Even when I was bitten by one woman it lead to pumping her full of energy... It didn't lead to my weakening, but she turned to something angelic... She was shining with my energy. And she communicated with me fully consciously in astral. I thing it was because of how many energy she took. Real one didn't remember a thing of this encounter. What she told me later, she had problems with tiredness... so... But she cant travel... she did try exercises I told her about, but she doesn't have patience to exercise. 

I tried some 2 years later something with pumping her with energy to make her again conscious. I used my hands... I saw energy as sparks, as electrical bolts dancing in and around my hand... But I wasn't successful with energy transfer. Next time I will try Floatinghead's method of shouting on her  :smiley:  Or on someone else I know from my surrounding.

*Remember, what I know doesn't need to be true. It is changing as I'm finding more information. Even then, I can be wrong. It can be very well subjective.*

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## Eonnn

> but she turned to something angelic... She was shining with my energy. And she communicated with me fully consciously in astral.[/B]



Wow that sounds epic!





> Maybe they are something like semi-sentient automatons. I don't know.* I try not to believe things, I try to know things.* I don't want to live in delusions.



That's a good way of looking at things  ::D:

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