# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity > Lucid Aids >  >  Melatonin + L-Theanine + Galantamine + Choline

## Nihao

Although I posted similar message as an answer I am curious if anybody has tried this combo before. 

Last night I ingested 3mg Melatonin and 200mg L-Theanine 1h before bed. I found very easy to go deeper in relaxation and almost instantly had some visual patterns in front of me. That ease never had happen to me. Really recommended for people who have problems with going deeper. That time I took very lazy approach and soon fell asleep.
After 4.5h I took 4mg Galantamine + 200mg Choline ( Lucid Dreamer ). My task was to check how easy I would get back to sleep this time. Every time I took Lucid Dreamer I had problems with it and often ended in restless night. To my suprise it took me ablout 5 min! Later I had a rollercoaster of different vivid dreams. At the end awaken by some noise I was in half asleep state and thinking about some things made them almost real but surely it wasn't LD.
I think that with a bit mental training - motivation to do WILD more seriously with this combo there is a great chance to success. I will say again - people like me whom Galantamine makes to excited may find Melatonin(+L-Theanine) very helpful.
Although I did not have LD from my experience in contrary to what some say Melatonin does not have an impact on vividness. I am not sure about LD itself.

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## c low

200 mg of choline isnt enough i would go with at least 400 mg of choline

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## Silence Dogood

Where do you get Galantamine?  Isn't it really expensive?

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## c low

http://www.dreamamins.com/?gclid=CN2...FQOaFQodo1W8Cw

its the Lucid dreamer one

get this is contain 4 mg of galantamine and 200mg of choline but i suggest searching for 200mg pills of choline too to take it with the Lucid dreamer pill so it would = 4mg of galantamine and 200mg of choline

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## Nihao

> http://www.dreamamins.com/?gclid=CN2...FQOaFQodo1W8Cw
> so it would = 4mg of galantamine and 200mg of choline



Perhaps you meant 400mg of choline at the end :wink2: 

Some people just take 2 LD pills but I found it too strong for me with sleepless night after.

Generally there is a vgood topic about any Galantamine + Choline aspects:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...tamine+choline
What I would like to discuss here is M+LT+G+Ch combo or other methods allowing better getting asleep (or WILD) after taking G+Ch which often leaves some people (like me) with nothig but insomniac experience.

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## Silence Dogood

I bought Choline, Melatonin, and Theanine at the Vitamine Shoppe yesterday.  I'm waiting for the Galantamine to come in the mail.  I'll let you know how it works when I try it  :smiley:

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## Nihao

> I bought Choline, Melatonin, and Theanine at the Vitamine Shoppe yesterday.  I'm waiting for the Galantamine to come in the mail.  I'll let you know how it works when I try it



If you are new at using supplements - the first time try to take only G+Ch after 4-5h of sleep (I recommend reading post that I mentioned earlier). Just to check if you can do without M+LTh. If you can't get asleep easily next time (after 2 days) take it at the same time with M+LTh before bed. 
Good LD's!

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## Wattage

I'm thinking take the melatonin before bed. Then taking L-theanine, choline, and galantamine at the 4-5 hr mark. L-theanine will help you fall asleep faster.

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## Nihao

> I'm thinking take the melatonin before bed. Then taking L-theanine, choline, and galantamine at the 4-5 hr mark. L-theanine will help you fall asleep faster.



Good idea. I found that L-Theanine peaks after 30 - 40 min with a couple of hours of half-life. I'll adjust my schedule.
By the way - good L(D)uck

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## Nihao

Well, I took L-Theanine later as mentioned with addition of Alpha GPC later.

In details: 
-before bed - 3mg Melatonin
-after 4.5 hours of sleep - 200mg L-Theanine + (4mg Galantamine + 200mg Choline - Lucid Dreamer) + 300mg Alpha GPC.
Worked really well for me. I could keep easily the state in between where I was able to see some pictures, visions sliding in front of me. With some effort I could keep some of them and stabilise. At a certain moment I found myself orbiting in a kinda space and noticed my TV and table. I grabbed them to stabilise and this is when my basic LD started. I was dark and blurry though and I had no full control on me. Nevertheless this coctail I have found the best so far.

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## Wattage

Thanks. That seems to be one of the better combinations for me. L-theanine is wonderful even for just relaxation.

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## Nihao

> Thanks. That seems to be one of the better combinations for me. L-theanine is wonderful even for just relaxation.



Could you write more details about how this coctail affect your LD techniques and what you experience after intake. I'd like to compare with myself and maybe find some space for improvement. The main problem I have now is blurry, dark LD's and not much control. I am not very much experienced though - had 3 LD's so far. Maybe I need some more practice. Do you have similar issues?

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## Ajna

Hey guys, I posted a supplement combination in my last post with the experience that followed. I do intend dropping the Galantamine down from 12mg to 8mg as I didn't sleep for around 1:50mins after I took the supplements but I list it all in the post. I usually combine with 2000mg (1 tablet) of Valerian which is a natural root extract to help me get to sleep but I think I just used more Galantamine than necessary this time. The dose of Choline is probably on the high side too... I'm definitely going to get my hands on this L-theanine too...

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=71183

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## Nihao

> Hey guys, I posted a supplement combination in my last post with the experience that followed. I do intend dropping the Galantamine down from 12mg to 8mg as I didn't sleep for around 1:50mins after I took the supplements but I list it all in the post. I usually combine with 2000mg (1 tablet) of Valerian which is a natural root extract to help me get to sleep but I think I just used more Galantamine than necessary this time. The dose of Choline is probably on the high side too... I'm definitely going to get my hands on this L-theanine too...
> 
> http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=71183



I've read your fabulous post ( with your experience you can set up your Dream Journal here ). Man, it looks like you ate a dinner at night! I assume you did no need any breakfast today. But seriously...
I think I will try more galantamine (but not 12mg!) and Choline next time. The only problem is whether increased dose of Melatonin / L-Theanine will tackle it. Maybe I will try Valerian?

As to L-Theanine - from my impression Melatonin plays here the main part and L-Theanine only boosts slightly the effect. Taking much of Melatonin does not necceserily increase drowsiness. Idid not find much difference after 3 and 6mg of Melatonin. Unfortunately because it would be a nice way to knock you out...

Regarding your LD - I like the part about resisting to some good looking pleasures. I know from my experience I would not get anywhere further :wink2:

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## Wattage

> Could you write more details about how this coctail affect your LD techniques and what you experience after intake. I'd like to compare with myself and maybe find some space for improvement. The main problem I have now is blurry, dark LD's and not much control. I am not very much experienced though - had 3 LD's so far. Maybe I need some more practice. Do you have similar issues?



Well, if you are having dark LD's, then maybe you just need more practice with controlling your dream itself. Remember that most of what happens in your dream is created by your subconscious. Try thinking good things when you become lucid. Maybe think of light and positive things. Whatever makes you happy, think about it. It's like the dreamworld is a thought created environment. I am honestly not that experienced in the lucid dreaming part, because I tend to get excited and wake myself up, or have false awakenings. Lately I've been having some breakthroughs in dealing with that. Just get some experience with it under your belt, and don't be afraid. If you fall for that dark trap you described, it will keep happening.

 I would not use this combination all the time.  This combination logically makes sense, but I don't use it that often, because more than not, I can't fall back asleep. I've always had a problem falling back to sleep, but L-theanine definitely helps me out a lot. I don't really have any techniques, other than thinking about lucid dreaming before bed, and knowing that it is easy to become lucid, and being hopeful that it actually happens. I hope this helps.

Try lucid dreaming with natural means. Using a dream journal always helps. If you are lazy, like me, I just lay in bed thinking about all the details in my dreams that night for a good 10 min or so. Ponder about those things all day long, and how they tangle in with your waking life. If I confused you at all, or didn't answer something fully, let me know. I will do my best. Good Luck!!! Remember the power of thought!

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## Nihao

Firstly saying "dark" I meant the light, colours not the atmosphere. I am not afraid just insanely curious. For a long long time I had no nightmares in my ND's nor in LD's and hopefully will not :smiley: 


Thanx for response. It casts some light at my dark uncertainty but still some questions left:

- could you say more what you see and sense while WILD and entering a dream. Do you drift from your body, hear some strange sound while transition moment, have a blackout and how usually your LD starts. 

- do you find any LD difference in quality, depth etc. between when you take supplements and not? 

You are right - I need to spend some time for positive affirmations before WILDing.

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## Ajna

As with what Wattage said, I don't really think taking supplements is for beginners. You don't need them to achieve LD's and its best to begin using the natural techniques. I may have given you the impression that taking supplements is the only way to have LD's as long as 1.5hrs but I've had a 2hr one in the past without using supplements (although I did have a crystal layout on me) and a few other longish 1hr - 1.5hr ones too. This was actually my first long LD using supplements.

I think that too much melatonin is detrimental to your REM cycle, especially anything over 3mg! From what I know under 1mg is the best to help you fall asleep. Maybe a 1mg tablet broken into 3 pieces for around 0.33mg a dose... I think melatonin is best used just before bed to create a REM rebound effect later on, as it does supress REM at higher dosages (I personally use 5-HTP normalled 200mg before bed to achieve a REM rebound, I think it has a more favourable elimination half-life). For getting to sleep I think Valerian is much better as it doesn't interfere with neurotransmitter precursors etc. Or even using L-Theanine from the sounds of it (I haven't used it yet but its in the mail)

This is the dosage I'm going to try for my next attempt in a few days.

Before Bed
200mg 5-HTP (2 tablets)
2000mg Valerian (1 tablet)

After 5-6 Hours of sleep
8mg Galantamine, 400mg Choline Citrate (2 combined tablets)
500mg Choline Bitartrate (1 tablet)
200mg Mucuna Pruriens (1 tablet of 15&#37; concentration)
2000mg Valerian (1 tablet)

I'll report how this works...

I used to have many OBE where I initially could not see anything or I'd just see flashes of colour as I felt the seperation occur. You need to strongly affirm your vision by willing it with intention or even saying out loud "vision now!". As someone said in another thread saying things out loud usually have the desired effect, and I also find the strength of the projection will affect the volume of your speech which is interesting (its not physical speech), the longer you can maintain your energy body the more chance you have of your vision manifesting, just try and stay OUT of your physical body as long as possible, try spinning, or drifting somewhere, or walking, if you do this the vision slowly sharpens. 

Also I have had success with reciting mantras through the exit, in particular I muster up the most powerful "OM" I can (eg "Ommmmmmm") and it usually results in a tunnel of light above me and the sound of chanting monks or even the "hari Krishna, hari Krishna" mantra song, this is one of my favoured experiences in the initial exit. Better than listening to threshold beings/guardians rustling about trying to scare you back into your body darn'd things lol. 

and as for the girls in the LD... I always used to go after them until a Dream Guide came to me once... well three of them actually... and said "You need to start making better choices if you want to stay here longer". So I gave it alot of thought and intention that I would do some more productive things with my LD experiences. It is a very private personal hurdle to be sharing here but I think it is very common particularly among males so I am sharing it with you... You need to train it out of you in the same way you train all the other areas of dream control... John Magnus in his book "Astral Projection and the Nature of Reality" went through the same thing too and he was very open and honest about it.

Ok this post is long enough now...

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## Nihao

Ajna,

Thanx for help. 




> I think that too much melatonin is detrimental to your REM cycle, especially anything over 3mg!



Strange but when month ago I took 6mg of Melatonin I remember well I had at least 2 ND within first 3-4 hours of sleep. On the other hand 2 days ago I measured my REM cycle (with REM Dreamer + comp) and I had no REM till 5th hour. I did not take anything on that occasion. Maybe that device caused it. Dunno...

Do you have any side effects after Valerian? You seem to take quite a chunk and twice a night... I am going to try it.
As to L-theanine I would take 200mg from start. 100mg you may find too weak. On the other hand if smth works in smaller dose then it's better.




> You need to strongly affirm your vision by willing it with intention or even saying out loud "vision now!".



In one of my last LD i tried it and it did not work. Perhaps I wasn't sure about it unconsciously. From now on it should be better though firstly I have to get to LD... Not easy for me and firstly I have to get more acquaintanced with LD before even thinking about working on some personal issues.

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## Ajna

> Strange but when month ago I took 6mg of Melatonin I remember well I had at least 2 ND within first 3-4 hours of sleep. On the other hand 2 days ago I measured my REM cycle (with REM Dreamer + comp) and I had no REM till 5th hour. I did not take anything on that occasion. Maybe that device caused it. Dunno...



That is strange, I would have thought it the other way around. No REM until the 5th hour is definitely not a natural sleep cycle, that is classic REM rebound. What is this REM Dreamer thing you mentioned?





> Do you have any side effects after Valerian?



None whatsoever, In fact it must be pretty weak because it doesn't always work. It just takes the edge off an alert state of mind/body so its useful for us because its not too strong and doesn't knock you out immediately. I think using L-Theanine may be better or Melatonin. I have yet to try either though. I'll order the Melatonin soon I think (L-Theanine already on its way). Also I have read that your body may start adpating if your using the same supplement combo regularly and the success rate starts to fall, so you have to change it up with different supplements, different doages or taking a break from it for a little while. So we all need to eventually develop a personal 'matrix' of supplement combos and alternate around them to keep the brain guessing. (like body builders keep their muscles guessing with varying work outs) sounds like fun to me though! The journey never ends :-)






> In one of my last LD i tried it and it did not work. Perhaps I wasn't sure about it unconsciously. From now on it should be better though firstly I have to get to LD... Not easy for me and firstly I have to get more acquaintanced with LD before even thinking about working on some personal issues.



Try rubbing your hands together and looking at your hands, feel your hands, feel the warmth between them building, hear the sound of your hands. This may be enough stimulation to your dream body to manifest some clearer vision. I've only used this once but it worked well. Spinning usually does the trick for me...

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## Nihao

Wow! I had LD/OOBE last night!
Looks like this combination really works - read - almost every time! I am really happy. It means for me that when I want LD I will get it :wink2: 
Shortly:
After 4h sleep I took:
Melatonin 3mg
L-Theanine 200mg
Galantamine 8mg
Choline 400mg  
Alpha GPC 300mg

I couldn't sleep for 2.5 hours laying on sides. I was relaxed and one step to SP but couldn't get deeper. Then I turned to position in between back and side. Shortly I had a short blackout and realised that my body is drifting up. I picked up the motion and ended somewhere in space, rocketing with hyper light speed. Later I found myself hovering at night under the ceiling of a church converted into family house. Yeah flying is my speciality :smiley:  Whole experience lasted 50min.
The downside was a vision and control. Looks like it is a serious issue and I really need to focus on it.
As for supplements, I thing that these first 2 were a bit too weak to balance last 3 hence this 2.5h struggle.

Ajna,
It's funny because I bought Valerian today and I am going to see how it works alone and with M+LTh against last 3 supplements. Looking forward to your report later on. Anyway this way we will be double sure abut results :wink2: 

As to REM Dreamer. Here is their web:
http://www.remdreamer.com/
This device is suppose to give you light or sound signal while REM that you are dreaming. For some it works for some not. I am in the second group. Nevertheless I find it useful and use it for measuring my REM cycles. The example I gave (first 5h with no REM) was an extreme. From my research I can see that my REM cycles differ widely and I need to carry it longer to come to any conclusion. 
I have constructed also kinda of rig where REM-D uses my verbal communicate to let me know that I am dreaming playing it on my comp through in-ear phones while REM. The down side is that the mess that I have on my head (phones + REM-D) together with comp noise doesn't allow me to sleep sound. This requires more attempts. I treat it as interesting curiosity - What happens if...?

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## Ajna

> I couldn't sleep for 2.5 hours laying on sides. I was relaxed and one step to SP but couldn't get deeper. Then I turned to position in between back and side. Shortly I had a short blackout and realised that my body is drifting up.
> As for supplements, I thing that these first 2 were a bit too weak to balance last 3 hence this 2.5h struggle.



Thats great stuff Nihao! I think if you wouldn't sleep for 2.5hrs you should try dropping the Galantamine to 4mg since that worked for you last time and maybe drop the GPC for the moment, I think for balancing supplements less is always more if you know what I mean  :;-): . Definitely don't increase the amount of melatonin, but whatever works I guess too...

The body drifting up thing is how all my WILD's start, to clarify I think that if you can feel your mind separate from your body its an OBE but if your vision is lacking as mine often is as well you seem to "fall" into a WILD. I also experience drifting down past my feel and out, or through my head (crown chakra) or rolling out and then off my bed or sometimes I just literally fall through my bed and through the floor, through the house, but this is so startling (and quite funny) that it usually ends up in a WILD because I don't have time to develop vision in the astral plane near the physical.

I'll check out this REM Dreamer thing, sounds very scientific  ::D: 

I haven't had a chance to take more supplements. I've had some great vivid dreams and remember all my phases of dreaming in fact (not the entire dreams but I know I've had 3-4 seperate bouts of REM/Dreaming) and I've recorded key messages from my subconcious. RC's are going well, doing 10-12 a day minimum.

Maybe I'll try an astral projection tonight...

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## Nihao

> Thats great stuff Nihao! I think if you wouldn't sleep for 2.5hrs you should try dropping the Galantamine to 4mg since that worked for you last time and maybe drop the GPC for the moment, I think for balancing supplements less is always more if you know what I mean .



I am trying different propotions to see which option works the best. Any success back then was due to Alpha GPC that peaks later, after 3h. I take it in order to extend the time of possibility of getting Lucid.

I took last nigh 2x500mg Valerian herbal complex alone. Each capsule: 
Root Powder 300mg, Root Extract 4:1 150mg (0.8&#37; Valerenic Acid), Some antioxidants
Diificult to compare with Melatonin / L-Theanine. While awaken it seems to be weaker (at that dosage) from the latter but somehow while trying to WILD I fell asleep:\ Today I am going to take more and be more motivated/alerted.

As for OOBE - do you think that the light in the room has any impact on your vision while the first moment of OOBE? My room is usually pitch black at night.

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## Ajna

I use Valerian just as a relaxer to help me sleep, especially when my circadian rhythms are out or if I've taken AcH agonisers like Galantamine. I don't think it will cause any REM rebound or any other advantages for LD'ing other than help you to refine your sleep wake cycle, it has no effect on neurotransmitters. I'll have to have a look at the concentration of the Valerian I use though because I think it might be stronger than yours, and each tablet has 2000mg of the stuff :-)

I used to light a candle a few years ago to help vision during OBE and it did help. During the day when having a nap at the post perenial dip around 3pm is also a good time to attempt WILD's I think. Read on a couch or in bed to get nice and drowsy first.

Last night I took 100mg of B6 at dinner 7:30pm just to have it in my system. Then 200mg of 5-HTP and 2000mg of Valerian at 11:00pm, read for half an hour, then layed back and started some energy work, the I decided to give that WILD technique we have been discussing a go (5000 year old etc) just to see what would happen. After 20 mins it was working and the energy body was loosening, had my arms and head out, until the cat jumped onto the window ledge and crashed into the blinds and brought me out of it lol! So I gave up on that, turned onto my side and went to sleep soon after. 

First period of REM it was a typical chase dream and at night, I was running along a city street and then turned left through some city gardens - with friends, running away from the law or something like that. I looked back as I was running and became lucid when I recognised the motion as being similar to Lucidipedias learning lucid dreaming video part 9 or 10 example of a "typical chase dream" in his words (weird process there). So I looked forward and saw I was running out of the gardens towards a main city street and I thought it would be awesome to get into the city because the level of detail was amazing. There was a police man just at the corner who was watching me run and I looked at his face and the expression was so funny it made me wake up (or it could have been the conclusion of the REM cycle), it was like a "what the ?" expression. Given that it was the first stage of REM I think the B6 definitely had something to do with it but why no REM rebound from the 5-HTP???. 

Then later on in the night maybe the 3rd REM cycle I became lucid in a dream after feeling a vertigo like projection reflex sensation and came out of the dream immediately and had an OBE, managed to turn around at the foot of the bed and see my girlfriend and I there in bed! but then it faded quickly and I woke up again. So I think I was achieving lucidity just at the finale of the REM cycle which was unfortunate. 

Then when I went back to sleep again I slept right through until the morning with regular dreaming and missed the opportunity to take some supplements and WILD. I think the B6 is encouraging but it shouldn't be taken at the same time as our usual supplements as there can be reactions.

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## Nihao

2nd attempt with Valerian 1500mg ended with same result - I fell asleep. Very strange as for me. My impression is that Melatonin + L-Theanine works better - deeper but I can't have a full certainty after just 2 attempts and wait for your experience with the latter.
BTW I found out that more than ~0.5mg Melatonin after worn off causes insomniac effect - contrary to its purpose. That is why I had to wait 2.5h at my last WILD. Dozes less than that don't suppress REM. That means I have to cut my 3mg tiny tablets from now on:\




> Then later on in the night maybe the 3rd REM cycle I became lucid in a dream after feeling a vertigo like projection reflex sensation and came out of the dream immediately and had an OBE



I had similar vertigo kind experience with some unknown (to me) American 70's folkrock in the backround. That was probably due to Alpha GPC.

I going to order some Mucuna P. What's the make of yours? 
Looks like I will end up with the same dinner at night as yours :wink2:  On the other hand I'm pissed off about my dependency on supplements and am woking on WILDing clear. No succes so far but I won't give up...

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## Firewalker

I suggest you try taking less Valerian if you are falling asleep, try 500mg.  
I've never had much luck with Valerian for lucid dreams, it usually knocks me out but I believe it could be good for WILDs if you are to wired.  Perhaps it would help with Galantamine or GPC, which I haven't tried with Valerian.  I take Valerian occasionally before bed to help me sleep, 500mg is usually enough and if I take 1000mg I sleep very well, but very deeply.

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## Ajna

I wouldn't worry about dependancy. Thomas Yuschak has taken some very large 'dinners' (  :smiley:  ) of supplements for a very long time and he claims he was never dependant, it actually increased his natural abilities as he is practiced with the process of becoming lucid and WILDing. The only thing which may happen is the supplements such as Galantamine may start losing their effecitveness if you don't allow it to be purged from your system between uses. 

Melatonin arrived so I'm going to try 3mg for REM rebounding and also a smaller maybe 0.5mg to help get to sleep after the AcH agonists. I'm having great success with B6 for LD vividness and stability too! I've read B5 also helps...

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## Nihao

I didn't mean addiction. I want to be able to have LD without any supplements. So far they are only fails in this area:\

Thanx, I'll have look on B5 but...
- What is the brand of your Mucuna Pruriens?

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## Silence Dogood

I tried Mel+Theanine Gal+Chol last night, to no avail  :Sad: 

Used Mel+The before bed, fell asleep aprox 1:30.  I was in bed around 12:45, so it was ineffective at relaxing me to sleep. Woke up on my own power at 6:15 and popped Gal+Chol and still couldn't find sleep for about 30 mins.

I did not have any deep sleep at all for the entire night.  Gal+Chol did not give me vivid dreams.  I remember it pretty well, but it did not aid in induction.

I don't think that this speaks to the quality of the combo though.  If my mind was relaxed and I could fall asleep easier, I may have had more success.  the fact that I was trying to fall asleep for a total of two hours last night shows that my mind wasn't in position to try it.  My thoughts were racing, probably because I had been watching Hannity's America and getting fired up earlier that day.

I will try this combo again in a couple days, but to my knowledge, the Mel+The isn't a very effective relaxant, and I've tried it about 3 times already.

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## Ajna

The window period you used to take Gal+Chol was good, probably at the conclusion of your 2nd or 3rd REM cycle is when you woke up. But the aim after taking Gal+Chol IS to stay awake at least 30-45min to allow the stuff to approach peak plasma in your blood stream. Have you read Thomas Yuschaks book? He has experimented with a range of dosages and described their effects. So he gives you a range of doses and you have to find the sweet spot which can be different for everyone. Its not a long book and really is a must read if your experimenting with the supplements, if your doing it based on what your reading on the forum only your success is likely to be lower - you need the background info on the reasons for taking this stuff. 

Also maybe its worth concentrating more on RC's, and all the other strategies which help you induce DILD's before attempting WILD's with supplements. It won't happen by itself just by taking the supplements.

The brand of Mucuna I take is by Advanced Physician Formulas but I'm sure there are better brands out there. Try to get one which is 10-15&#37; concentration, the book tells you why.

The Melatonin arrived and 3mg did a good job of knocking me out at the start of the night :-) Just using Melatonin for REM rebound and Vitamin B6 200mg at the start of the night (100mg with dinner and 100mg at bedtime) I've been experimenting with walking into the hypnogogic imagery, or falling into it. It does well integrating your mind into your dream body I'm finding but its not lasting as long as my WILD's associated with OBE's and spontaneous DILDS... The stuff in the current thread 10sec LD induction or whatever it is called is good stuff but I don't try and move until I'm sure I'm in the dream body.

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## Robot_Butler

> the aim after taking Gal+Chol IS to stay awake at least 30-45min to allow the stuff to approach peak plasma in your blood stream.



I was just going to say this same thing.  Be sure you stay awake for a bit after taking galantamine/choline.  At Thomas and Scott's advice, I take mine dissolved in a glass of water so it hits my system faster.  Then, I stay awake for about 30 minutes or so before returning to bed.  For some reason, if I just pop the pill and go back to bed, I can not return to sleep for an hour or more.

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## Ajna

> I take mine dissolved in a glass of water so it hits my system faster.



How does it taste dissolved in water? I never considered this... where did you learn about it?

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## Robot_Butler

The stuff I have doesn't taste bad, at all.  A little lemony, but pleasant.

I can't remember where I first heard about it.  It came up in a galantamine discussion a while back.  It was either Thomas Yuschak or Scott Stride who suggested it.  I don't argue with those guys  :tongue2:   They are hardcore about their supplements.

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## Nihao

> I tried Mel+Theanine Gal+Chol last night, to no avail 
> Used Mel+The before bed, fell asleep aprox 1:30.  I was in bed around 12:45, so it was ineffective at relaxing me to sleep. Woke up on my own power at 6:15 and popped Gal+Chol and still couldn't find sleep for about 30 mins.



Apparently your timing schedule referres to the start of this thread. It wasn't perfect I must say...
I would correct it as follows: For REM rebound at the later stage take 3mg Melatonin 1hour before bed. It peaks about that time so it should work nicely next time. While WBTB take:
- Melatonin 0.5mg (doesn't suppress REM then)
- L-Theanine 200mg
- Galantamine + Choline at dosage that suits you (8mg+ of Galantamine for some might be to strong to come back to sleep)
You can stay some time awaken but expect the whole stuff be fully working (peaking) after 1h. 
As to your attempt clearly while WBTB Melatonin at that time was worn off and L-Theanine was too weak after 5.5 hours to combat the power of Galantamine :wink2:  

Ajna,
Thanx for Mucuna. I'll have more time now to focus on energetizing and paralelly on non suppl. WILDs

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## Ajna

Hey guys, an excert from my log out of interest;

*14/1/09	After watching The Matrix, Melatonin insomnia*
*1900* 
100mg B6 (with dinner)

*2300* 
200mg 5-HTP 
2000mg Valerian
Meditation

*2330	* 
3mg Melatonin

*~0000*	Sleep
*~0130*	Wake (read for 30 mins from 0430)
*~0530*	Sleep
*~1040*	Wake	
*Total	*	~6.5hrs sleep  :Sad: 

Comments: Whilst I went to sleep quickly after being relaxed through meditation and recalled no dreaming (REM rebound in effect), once awoken early morning I did feel agitated and alert with a slightly elevated heart rate, this could have been an effect of the Melatonin having worn off. Once finally asleep dreams long and vivid but not lucid.  

In future I will only use <0.5mg of Melatonin to aid sleep after taking ACh agonists. No induction techniques used as I felt I just needed sleep. L-Theanine has arrived. 
__________________________________________________  _______________________

Well after my rest day I'm going to try the following 'lightish' but comprehensive combo;

With dinner
200mg B6 (to have in system to aid recall/vividness)

Before bed 
100mg 5-HTP (1 tablet)
200mg L-Theanine (2 tablets)
2000mg Valerian (1 tablet)

After 4-5hrs sleep
4mg Galantamine, 200mg Choline Citrate (1 tablet)
200mg Mucuna Pruriens (15&#37; L-dopa concentration)
0.30mg Melatonin (1/10 of a tablet)
100mg L-Theanine (1 tablet)
2000mg Valerian (1 tablet)

Aiming for the conclusion of the WILD induction after 40-60mins

we'll see...

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## Nihao

> ... once awoken early morning I did feel agitated and alert with a slightly elevated heart rate, this could have been an effect of the Melatonin having worn off.



I recall similar experience after taking 3mg of Melatonin for the first time. Actually it was a series of waking and falling to sleep. That has never happened again (taken before bed) though, even with 6mg.
No worries, I had worse 2 nights ago - I slept over the full supplements intake. Just vivid dreams:\

Could you once change your formula after 4-5h of sleep and take:
- 200mg L-Theanine
- no Valerian
This is what I am aiming at (when I get Mucuna) and interested how it would work for you.

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## MedianN

I saw this posting, and I found it interesting the extreme amount of substances that you use. 

Sadly due to smoking most of my life and not being able to get a nootropic without a prescription, the effectiveness of Galantamine has exponentially decreased for me.

I was in contact with Thomas Yuschak the author of the book on chemically induced lucid dreaming via email. He has not been replying lately and his website is down? Anyway... back to the point. In our last email he shared with me his best effective combo:

Taken after 4 or 5 hours of sleep:

8 mg Galantamine 
40 mg Propranolol (Inderal) -- sadly this is only available on prescription, but it blocks Melatonin from impeding the Galantamine effectiveness. http://www.antiaging-systems.com/scr...%2facatalog%2f

His research found that Melatonin might actually work against the effectiveness of the Galantamines ability to stimulate the nicotinic receptors. 

If you cannot try the above combination, at least consider excluding melatonin from your current cocktails.

To your success on all your quests.

PS. The combo that I mentioned had amazing results for me. However, as mentioned earlier, the effectiveness of Galantamine has seem to have decreased exponentially in me.... it makes me really sad.. I was so close..... had a few lucid dreams, and now it has been taken away from me once again... Perhaps someone has an idea of why my success rate dropped so dramatically, that is not smoking related?

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## Robot_Butler

Welcome, MediaN




> I was in contact with Thomas Yuschak the author of the book on chemically induced lucid dreaming via email. He has not been replying lately and his website is down?



Yeah, he disappeared a couple months ago without much of an explanation.  I'm still hoping it is for good, positive reasons like patents for a breakthrough or silence for a new collaboration.  I hope he is not in any trouble  :smiley: 





> the effectiveness of Galantamine has seem to have decreased exponentially in me.... it makes me really sad.. I was so close..... had a few lucid dreams, and now it has been taken away from me once again... Perhaps someone has an idea of why my success rate dropped so dramatically, that is not smoking related?



I remember there was some discusison about this a while back.  People couldn't figure out why, long term, the effectiveness was lowered.  There was some talk about it possibly being due to the shelf life of galantamine.  Sadly, I don't remember how it all turned out.  Maybe you could try a fresh bottle, or borrowing some from a friend?

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## Nihao

> Taken after 4 or 5 hours of sleep:
> 
> 8 mg Galantamine 
> 40 mg Propranolol (Inderal) -- sadly this is only available on prescription, but it blocks Melatonin from impeding the Galantamine effectiveness.



I am not sure if I could fall asleep after that. People are different. You find Galantamine barely working while I need something to knock me out as it's too strong for me. I think that applies also to Melatonin. Besides I have reduced it to 1mg while WBTB. On the other hand I am open to other ways and will have a closer look at Propranolol as apparently it's available over the counter in UK.
How do you use G+P? for WILD or DILD?
Did you mean smokin' cigarettes or other stuff?

As to your issue - try to put suppls. aside for some time and use your mind/body machine instead. I've been trying it recently with no success so far but will not give up!

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## MedianN

> I am not sure if I could fall asleep after that. People are different. You find Galantamine barely working while I need something to knock me out as it's too strong for me. I think that applies also to Melatonin. Besides I have reduced it to 1mg while WBTB. On the other hand I am open to other ways and will have a closer look at Propranolol as apparently it's available over the counter in UK.
> How do you use G+P? for WILD or DILD?
> Did you mean smokin' cigarettes or other stuff?
> 
> As to your issue - try to put suppls. aside for some time and use your mind/body machine instead. I've been trying it recently with no success so far but will not give up!



I usually go for DILD because of the not falling asleep issue. I have given up the supplements for 6 months, still after using it, no effect. I will try again tonight, have not tried in months, maybe I will be lucky.

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## Firewalker

I had a lucid dream the other night after taking Melatonin before bed, waking in the middle of the night and going back to bed, WBTB, this has happened before, usually I take something else after waking like green tea supplements or Theanine, ALC etc., these work sometimes,  tried Galantamine, GPC, didn't help much in my case.  Anyway this time I didn't.  While I have had lucids before without taking anything I believe Melatonin has a bigger impact on lucid dreams than people realize.  For me Melatonin gives more vivid dreams than anything else I have tried.  Also the bodies natural Melatonin peaks at about 3A.M. around the time that I have had many lucid dreams before, also many of these combos use either Melatonin before bed or 5-HTP which converts to serotonin and some into Melatonin.  Even if much of the melatonin supplement is wearing off by the time people try WBTB the body is often peaking or is still at a high level of natural melatonin at the time of WBTB, there is also the possiblity that with high levels of Melatonin some could be converted into DMT, which could trigger lucid dreams.

Having said this I don't beleive that it is necessary to take huge doses of Melatonin, I believe there is a balance point.  I have had success on as little as 300mcg's of Melatonin, and often take 3mg.  Last night I tried 5mg. and only vaguely remember dreaming.  With the 3mg. the night before I had vivid dreams and one lucid.  Other people may do better with 5-HTP, though for me it doesn't help for dreams.  I hope to find the right point, because I feel this is likely the key, the body produces melatonin at night, we dream at night, it is proven to increase both deep and REM sleep, and is known to produce very vivid dreams.  

Perhaps for some people substances like Galantamine help keep you awake enough to realize you are dreaming, but I feel the Melatonin is what is really doing the most.

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## RunflaCruiser

I used to do the 5htp/melatonin before bed and galantamine/400choline at 4 am and had a lucid (or a few) every single night. --about 2-3 nights a weeks.

I got used to it quickly and the effectiveness stopped after about 1 month or so.

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## ChaybaChayba

I've used choline for a while and it definatily increases dream recall and dream vividness. Choline works, thats for sure.

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## RunflaCruiser

just add some galantamine and and your results will be 100 times better than just choline by itself. -its like a 100% guaranteed lucid (or 4)

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## ChaybaChayba

Cool I will try that, I'm very curious for the results, I'll post them here. Thanks for the advice!

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## RunflaCruiser

make sure to take it at 4 am. Stay up for a little while laying in bed. After about a half hour laying in bed, then try to WILD. If you dont WILD, dont worry, you'll get most likely get lucid the other way.

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## Ajna

> I slept over the full supplements intake. Just vivid dreams:\
> 
> Could you once change your formula after 4-5h of sleep and take:
> - 200mg L-Theanine
> - no Valerian
> This is what I am aiming at (when I get Mucuna) and interested how it would work for you.



Yea, at the moment I'm actually just experimenting with different combo's of B5 & B6 prior to bed to see what gives me the best boost in regular dreaming, other commitments mean I have to stay on top of a healthy natural sleep cycle at the moment. Did have one short lucid for my efforts. B5 assists the production of Acetylcholine interestingly... dreams definitely more vivid though. I just wish I looked at my watch as much in dreams as I do in 'waking' reality  ::?: 

I'm hearing you on the relaxants. I just find sometimes after taking 8mg of Galantamine with some Choline after 45-60mins I really need help in getting to sleep if my energy work WILD attempt didn't pay off. I'll post any interesting results and see what concoction I decide to take at 5am  :smiley:

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## Nihao

> Yea, at the moment I'm actually just experimenting with different combo's of B5 & B6 prior to bed to see what gives me the best boost in regular dreaming, other commitments mean I have to stay on top of a healthy natural sleep cycle at the moment.



No problemo. Do you take B6/B5 alone or together with your usual G+Ch+M+V dinner while WBTB?
My last report:
before bed 3mg Melatonin
WBTB:Melatonin 0.5mg,L-Theanine 200mg,Galantamine 4mg, Choline 200mg, Alpha GPC 600mg
This time I took more A-GPC and also meditated ~20min. This amount of A-GPC was a bit too strong and I couldn't fell asleep for long. Finally overslept the right moment:\ Again! Somehow DILD doesn't work for me. Just vivids.
Next time I'm going to try 3x knockers: Melatonin+L-Theanine+Valerian without the rest.

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## Ajna

Maybe try a different WILD technique instead of the one your using now, don't loose confidence in yourself - if you really put your mind to it you could WILD even without supplements, they just help.

Try more reality checks, really practicing being more aware throughout the day could help. 

Yep, I'm takeing the 250mg B5 & 200mg B6 together before bed but another option is to take them after 4-5hrs sleep and try DILD. I think thats the limit for B5 but the option for slightly more B6 is there also. I'm hopeing to get a good before bed combo to boost dreaming and neurotransmitter precursors in general, so I don't need to try and rely on the REM rebound because I find those supplements are disrupting my sleep. I slept like a baby last night, good dreams though :-)

Also here is a nice short article about vitamins B5 & B6 and their possible benefits to lucid dreaming. Ignoring the typo's and the fact its not completely comprehensive there are interesting relationships between Galantamine & B5 and Valerian & B6 sighted...

http://library.rusbiz.com/article_in...t=134&id=24904

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## Ajna

Guys I just found this forum thread, the first post is basically an extract from Thomas Yuschaks book Advanced Lucid Dreaming about alot of the different supplements we are using and why we use them. Could be just the info you need Nihao  :wink2: 

http://www.saltcube.com/out-of-body/...ic.jsp?t=35427

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## RunflaCruiser

I wouldnt recommend taking any b-vitamins before bed. You'll never get to sleep. You would be forcing your body to do the opposite of what it whats to do.

Divide your idea of sleep into two parts. The first half of the night is for deep sleep (repair) and the second half of the night for dream sleep.

Don't take any drugs that push either side of the night in the wrong direction. Example: don't take b vitamins at the begin of the night. b vitamins promote dream or REM sleep but not deep sleep.

Do take supplements that help either side of the night. Example: Melatonin and 5htp promote deep sleep so take them before going to bed. These work to squeeze all the dream sleep out of your deep sleep. You'll get a more deep, pure, delta sleep to promote a REM rebound effect by morning.

Then take supps like galantamine, b vitamins, choline, nicotine, yohimbe, choline salts, GPC, after about 4-5 hours sleep. These work to squeeze out all the deep sleep and give you pure dream or REM sleep. Combined with the REM rebound you'll get with the other supplements you should be in for a treat!

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## Nihao

> Guys I just found this forum thread, the first post is basically an extract from Thomas Yuschaks book Advanced Lucid Dreaming about alot of the different supplements we are using and why we use them. Could be just the info you need Nihao



Haha! That's funny because I read it 2-3weeks ago. Have a look on that girl's posts.
That article interesting - Valerian,Melatonin and B6? I miss the latter.




> Then take supps like galantamine, b vitamins, choline, nicotine, yohimbe, choline salts, GPC, after about 4-5 hours sleep. These work to squeeze out all the deep sleep and give you pure dream or REM sleep. Combined with the REM rebound you'll get with the other supplements you should be in for a treat!



That is OK in theory but life is cruel:\

I sometimes think about getting closer to the end of Tryptophan -> DMT cycle. Something that directly inhibits MAO. Ayahuasca or common reed:
http://www.acutcmdetox.com/tryptophan2.html
http://dmt-nexus.com/doc/common%20reed.pdf
but this is a subject for another thread...

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## Ajna

I agree with everything you said RunflaCruiser and thats exactly how I think of the sleep cycle. I personally use 5-HTP to squeeze as much REM into the second 4hr chunk of sleep. The thing with taking B vitamins before bed is that particularly for B5 it takes so long to reach peak plasma so my thinking was; it would help if it was in my system in a sustained release fashion as a back up for the other supplements. However B5 is a Acetylcholine assistant and this promotes REM sleep so I think I should move that supp to after 4-5hrs sleep even if it takes that long to reach peak plasma, it could help DILD later on if the WILD doesn't work (similar to Alpha GPC).

Thanks for your thoughts  :smiley: 

Nihao; Ayahuasca and DMT are definitely intriguing... but alot can be achieved with lucid dreaming and wakeful living before that journey need begin?

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## Nihao

Melatonin 3mg + L-Theanine 200mg + Valerian 1500mg
I took them 1h before bed. I tried to WILD but this thing made me much less focused and I fell asleep. I woke after 1h40min and came back to sleep. Same result. I can recall some dreams with regular vividness. It's difficult to judge after one attempt but I have an impression that although this combo knock you out easily it blunts your focus. On the other hand recently my focus is crap and I need to work on it. Melatonin+L-Theanine has an advantage to give you more control...

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## Ajna

I've never been able to achieve a WILD just at bed time, let alone taking those kinds of supplements as well, you'd be fighting an uphill battle. I think what that combo would do is move some of your REM to later in the night, 5-HTP could work better though I think. And unless you have trouble sleeping you don't need the Valerian...

Then try and WILD after 4-5 hrs sleep. It will be 100x easier  :wink2:

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## Nihao

> I've never been able to achieve a WILD just at bed time, let alone taking those kinds of supplements as well, you'd be fighting an uphill battle.



I agree 100%. I just wanted to test that formula in more challenging circumstances. Recently my focus is so bad that while WBTB I fall asleep instantly without any relaxants. However last night was different. Without any pills firstly I managed to attempt WILD almost till SP and later after 4h of sleep was too excited/overfocused to get asleep quickly. 
My plan is to master WILD (no suppls) as often as I can so I will do it at bed time and after 4-5h. Actually I had one short WILD at bed time month ago.  I'll come back to this thread formula in some time...

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## DreamChaser

I appreciate all these combinations, 
but it seems every Jeckyl has a formula.

Everyone seems to have a different reaction to several combinations
(correction: everytime someone tries a derivative they get a diff reaction)
let alone having a stable combination to offer everyone.

Right or wrong?

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## Firewalker

> I appreciate all these combinations, 
> but it seems every Jeckyl has a formula.
> 
> Everyone seems to have a different reaction to several combinations
> (correction: everytime someone tries a derivative they get a diff reaction)
> let alone having a stable combination to offer everyone.
> 
> Right or wrong?



True. I'm going to take a break from supplements because it seems they only work a few times at best.  And I've had success before without them.  I'm starting to believe the reason they work for some people is more of a placebo effect.  If you believe they will work, then your mind will make it work sometimes.

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## Nihao

> I appreciate all these combinations, 
> but it seems every Jeckyl has a formula.



That's obvious, otherwise we would be boring clones of ourselves. Also that's the purpose of such forum to share experiences which may (or not) be helpful for others :wink2: 




> I'm starting to believe the reason they work for some people is more of a placebo effect.  If you believe they will work, then your mind will make it work sometimes.



I have entirely contrary experience but being able to do the same without suppls. would be ideal. I haven't reached that level yet:\

Back on track!
Yesterday I took 0.7mg Melatonin before bed then after 4h 4mg Galantamine + 200mg Choline + 0.7mg Melatonin + 200mg L-Theanine. In other words it was simplified version without Alpha GPC - exactly like thread's title but with different timing then at the beginning. Wow!
I went back to bed instantly but was just lying and waiting for the right time. I felt very balanced in terms of focus and consciousness. I was not too alerted like many times before. To my astonishment when I checked the time it was 1h40min after! I thought I screwed it up again and came back to get some sleep at least. Literally  a few seconds after I turned on my side I got through the threshold! It was easy like piece of cake. I heard a kind of thunder while detaching from my body. Then somehow I sensed my body in bed and this turned me back. I tried to repeat it and did so with no problem just second after. Again thunder. This time there was some light in my physical room and that must had affected positively my vision. In the back of my head I had a thought to leave the room immidietely to be far from my physical body. I managed to open my astral window and flew away...
LD lasted circa 1h. This time my vision was better and once I had it full detail. Nevertheless sometimes rubbing hands and spinning didn't help much. I still have to work on it. 
Looks like this formula and timing works the best for me. I felt very balanced and when I had a clear intention to fell sleep I did it though not expecting that it would be so easy. Have to check it more times to have more robust opinion about...

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## maloufw

Choline and melatonin. ive been taking melatonin right before bed and ive just woken up alot during the middle of the night. i have strange visions but no dreams. i have no experience in this at all so would someone try this combo. because i know they are both safe i just have no experience in this field

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