# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity > Wake Initiated Lucid Dreams (WILD) >  >  My Extreme WILD method - 90% success

## evildoctor

Hi,

I have now been practicing LD'ing for a year. I have learned a great deal from this site and from the books of Laberge and others.

During the last year I have refined my technique and have a found a way to WILD with almost perfect results. The WILDS are very long and vivid and I normall get a bonus DILD or EDILD also.

I tend to take whatever I turn my mind to very seriously - going to extremes if necessary. As such you will see from my method that I take ALOT of supplements. For those who worry about taking too many supplements then I suggest you read no further.

I recently had a few weeks where I did not have to go into work much. Here is my record:

Morning of Mon 19th October : 2 WILDS
Oct 20 thru 22nd - No attempt (short night due to work)
Oct 23rd : WILD plus DEILD
Oct 24th : No Attempt
Oct 25th : 2 WILDs
OCT 26 : Very Vivid dreams with a few breif lucid moments
OCT 27 : WILD + EDILD
OCT 28 thru 30 - no attempt - short night due to work
OCT 31 : 2 long vivid WILDS
NOV 1 : 2 long vivid WILDS
NOV 2 : long vivid dreams no lucidity
Nov 3 thru 6th
NOV 7 : 1 long WILD plus 2 DEILD

Here is my method:

GENERAL
Everything this site and the books say about the importance of a dream journal, training the prospective memory and reality checks IS TRUE. Keeping a DJ until you can remember several dreams in detail a night is key. 

I found the best reality check is looking at my hands, and training my prospective memory by "programming" my memory to make me look at my hands whenever I see a hot girl, get in my car, see anything "odd", etc.

SUPPLEMENTATION

Before Bed I take:

750mg Niacin
1500mg Pantothenic Acid (B5)
5mg Melotonin OR 300mg 5-HTP OR 1500mg L-Tryptophan
260mg DMAE
2000mg L-Tyrosine
900mg N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine
Taken with fruit juice - normally cranberry.

I sometimes also use Calea OR Wormword OR Mugwort. Over a year I have reached the conclusion that these may help vividness but do not help directly with lucidity. I also found that Valerian negatively affects my recall so I dont use it.

After 4-5 hours of sleep:

8mg Galantamine OR 600mcg Huperzine A
900mg Alpha GPC
800mg Theanine
500mg Pantothenic Acid
250mg Niacin
1 Nicotine patch - 14mg works fine as does 21mg.
Taken with water.

Heres why the above works for WILD. The nicotine patch combined with the Galantamine OR Huperzine and A-GPC gives you ONE HELL OF A BUZZ. This comes on very strongly within a few minutes. It peaks after 30 minutes and then gently subsides. THEREFORE I DONT NEED TO WBTB. The buzz is so strong that you cant sleep. Therefore I dont turn on the lights, dont get up. I keep it dark when the alarm goes off. I put on the patch, take the supplements with a drink, and lie back down. 

WILD ATTEMPT
AS the buzz is so trong it takes at least an hour to start WILDING. I think this is the key to the success of this method. I found that experimenting with WBTB times led to very random results. I would end up wondering if I failed because I was awake for too long/short or too much light or too much movement. As the buzz is so strong you dont have to worry about falling alseep without lucidity. I use the first 30 minutes to use relaxation methods to make sure im comfortable. I use meditation techniques to slow my breathing to a sleeping rate (called the 4 fold breath - you breath in for 4 seconds, hold for 4 seconds, breathe out for 4 seconds, hold for 4 seconds, repeat).

At about 30 mins in I start with affirmations - "I will recognize I am dreaming, I will stay lucid by looking at my hands frequently" etc.

At about 45mins as the buzz is becoming less I start using auto suggestion to tell my self I am getting sleepy.

At about the hour I start getting HH's and dreamletts. These seem to come in waves. Sooner or later a minin dream becomes vivid enougth that all I need to do is focus on one small thing in the dream (last night it was the pattern on the carpet in the mini dream) - the dream then sort of "solidifies" - everything becomes increasingly vivid - I can then walk, run fly, anything I want.

As usual its important to keep reminding yourself to stay lucid.

The WILDs are very long with this attempt. As stated I found that when they do end and I "wake up" I can EDILD back in. Or become lucid again in another dream DILD style.

I think this approach prevents you from falling asleep too quickly without keeping hold of your conciousness AND keeps you in the sweet spot - the wake/sleep boundary for much longer.

I also do not worry or bother with keeping perfectly still or swallowing etc. I just lie in my normal sleeping position (my side) and maybe roll over gently every 30 mins or so if I start getting too uncomfortable. I think worrying and over fixating on "moving", "swallowing" etc used to screw up many of my previous attempts.


I did not start by taking these many supplements - I have experimented with different combinations and increased dosages until I have the results I do now. For your reference I am 210 pounds and a 40 year old male. I read somewhere that choline production reduces with age - I also have a fast metabolism - this may be why I need more.

AFFIRMATIONS
This is another area where I go a little extreme. It is a good practice to repeat to yourself suring the day "I will dream to night and recognise I am dreaing and become aware" etc such as the books suggest.

I have found my results were also boosted by doing these a little more dramatically before bed. Therefore about 30 minutes before bed on the night of an attempt. The details are not important - but the basic approach is to work yourself up into a passion/frenzy then repeatedly shout and scream your intention to get lucid and recognize you are dreaming. I know it sounds odd but it works better for me. 


FINALLY

DOnt go nuts on supplements straight off the bat - work up from small dosages until you get results. 

Nicotine is addictive. If you dont smoke but want to try the patches then only use them once or twice a week and start with the losest does or you will just feel sick.

If this helps anyone then cool.

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## beachgirl

thanks, evildoctor...
and congratulations on your successes.

a few questions...
are there any risks to taking that much tyrosine?
why both forms of it?

i assume the dmae is for memory?

i am interested to see you found success with the huperzine.

this is the first i have heard of b5 playing an important role. what is its function?

can you ever mix some melatonin with a smaller dose of 5htp or trypophan?

thanks again,
beachgiri

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## TheWeirdnessSymposium

Good reading. Wow! What a lot of supplements! True dedication.

Interesting how you talk about a "buzz". I've also heard of people saying you can achieve a kind of buzz by having sex but without orgasm. (Though that may be another kind of buzz entirely.)

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## evildoctor

> thanks, evildoctor...
> and congratulations on your successes.
> 
> a few questions...
> are there any risks to taking that much tyrosine?
> why both forms of it?
> 
> i assume the dmae is for memory?
> 
> ...




Good question about the tyrosine. According to Wikipedia it can be used successfully to treat withdrawal from nicotine, cocaine, caffine etc at a daily dossage of 500-1500mg. It goes on to say that it is not recommended to exceed 12000mg daily - my doseage is way below that.

I also dont want to take too much of only the N-acetly L-tyrosine, the brand I but (source naturals) contain ALOT of B12. Per 25mg they contain 1250% of the daily dose. We know that exceeding 10000% can lead to non permanent nerve damage - hence I keep the dose below that threshold. The N-Acetyl helps with the processing of the L-tyrosine.

I use both in combo for a reason. Many focus on the importance of Serotin and Acetly choline for Lucid dreaming. Whereas research has shown that boosting Dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine also leads to good results (and N-A L-T are precusors for these).

As to DMAE - I found out about this from Dreamviews. It is for memory function yes - and since I started using it found it does greatly improve recall with continued use. Oddly I think it is also a Choline precursor - which would suggest that before bed is not the best time to take it - but doing so seems to work for me.

you can read about B3 and B5 in the supplements repository sticky in the Induction aids forim. One Is for Vividness the other assists choline synthesis and memory.

Huperzine does seem to work. I use it to prevent getting tolerant to Galantamine - therefore at the weekend if I want to LD a few nights in a row I will swap between the two.

AS to combining Melo with 5-HTP and Tryp - I did do this in the early days but dont think its necessary. I think Melo is the best followed by 5-HTP. I use all three to change it up and prevent any tollerance issues.

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## Leonix

Oh -- Damn, that's a huge load of supplements.

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## mrdeano

Way to many supplements for it to be worth a go.

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## FreeOne

congrats on your success evil doctor. I would try your technique, but all those supplements would kill me i think. haha

are you sure you havent noticed any negative effects from all of those?  That seems like alot for the body to handle.

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## Tushix

How much would that cost a night o.O

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## evildoctor

> congrats on your success evil doctor. I would try your technique, but all those supplements would kill me i think. haha
> 
> are you sure you havent noticed any negative effects from all of those?  That seems like alot for the body to handle.




I have grown a third leg. But can run faster now so its all good  ::shock::  ::D:

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## Leonix

> How much would that cost a night o.O



I've calculated a bill of around $1400 dollars per night.
 :wink2:

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## evildoctor

> I've calculated a bill of around $1400 dollars per night.



Like I said im 40. The downside is that I have a very busy carear which means I only get 4-5 hours sleep work nights, and like I said research suggests natural Choline levels start dropping once you start getting older.

The upside is that I earn enough $$$ to not have to budget or worry about money - therefore I just buy what I need when I need it.

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## Leonix

> Like I said im 40. The downside is that I have a very busy carear which means I only get 4-5 hours sleep work nights, and like I said research suggests natural Choline levels start dropping once you start getting older.
> 
> The upside is that I earn enough $$$ to not have to budget or worry about money - therefore I just buy what I need when I need it.



I wish I could, I just don't have that kind of money.

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## beachgirl

evildoctor,
thanks for your reply.
what do you take during the week for maintainance - or do you?
is there any dropoff effect by just stopping these dosages. i am guessing you have to have some maintaince levels.
and, do you attempt to ld other than on the weekend?
thanks,
bg

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## Dream scientist

Fostering a niccotine addiction is NOT the way to have lucid dreams. Newbies, shield your eyes!  :smiley: 


Well, you did say extreme WILD technique.

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## evildoctor

Sorry BEach girl, I missed your reply.

I dont think maintenance levels are required. In fact I like a few nights off mid week to let everthing flush out so I dont get tollerance issues.

Mid week I would love to LD. The sad thing is I have a busy job in downtown Chi Town and have to get up at 4:30am - and I dont get to bed until 11:00pm or later. I am determined to crack mid week lucids - but its tough with only 5-6 hours sleep.

Mid week I have an REM dreamer mask - I am hoping to use this to eventually get a lucid before my alarm goes off at 4:30. 4:30 is the time I set my alarm for at the weekend to take my supplements - I then dream like a mad man (after the hour or so it takes to enter WILD) until 9:00am when I get up.

Update = LAst night I had my busiest night ever. I had 4 WILDS and 1 DILD.

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## Noogah

Really interesting stuff evildoctor, and I might just try it.

There is only one article of concern to me.





> 750mg Niacin
> 1500mg Pantothenic Acid (B5)
> 5mg Melotonin OR 300mg 5-HTP OR 1500mg L-Tryptophan
> 260mg DMAE
> 2000mg L-Tyrosine
> 900mg N-Acetyl L-Tyrosine
> Taken with fruit juice - normally cranberry.







> 8mg Galantamine OR 600mcg Huperzine A
> 900mg Alpha GPC
> 800mg Theanine
> 500mg Pantothenic Acid
> 250mg Niacin
> 1 Nicotine patch - 14mg works fine as does 21mg.
> Taken with water.



Would this...like...kill you?

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## evildoctor

LOL.

Hey Noogah - hows things. Sorry about your membership level changing, you drive me nuts but I actually miss your posts and the R/S forum is much quiter with out you.

No - doesnt kill you - im still alive and kicking, thriving indeed.

Nothing I take is above the maximum dose recommended. And I take nights off to let my system recover.

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## Noogah

> Sorry about your membership level changing, you drive me nuts but I actually miss your posts and the R/S forum is much quiter with out you.



Lol. Thanks. I miss posting. Mayhaps we can dual via pm sometime?





> Nothing I take is above the maximum dose recommended.



And what is the maximum dose? It will be different for me than it is for you, you being older. Is there some website that talks about this?





> And I take nights off to let my system recover.



That's a good precaution.

Oh yeah, and, if you don't mind, how much DOES this cost a night?  ::shock::

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## beachgirl

Hi Evildoctor,
I really enjoy your sharing your experiments - many thanks
curious
why the juice? i know many talk of apple juice... i'm senstive to apples so i've ruled that out... but why juice?
also i'd love to hear once you get your REM dreamer going!
warmly.beachgirl

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## evildoctor

Beachgirl,

I dont think the juice is essential. I like ocean spray light cranberry - they also do cranberry and grape or raspberry or apple. Its got some vitamin C in it (not that I think its important for LDing) and its just a nice drink to was the supplements down with before going to bed.

I usually keep the juice around as I also experiment with calea/wormwood/mugwort.

Now Mugwort as a tea is actually rather pleasant. But Calea and Wormwood are disgustingly bitter. 

If you buy calea extract then 15 drops in a glass of cranberry/raspberry is very bearable.

Wormwood is even worse - I make some tea with it and let it cool - then mix the cold tea in with at least the same quantity of cranberry/rspberry and a spoonful of sugar or sweetener.

I have had the REM Dreamer since the summer. It works very well and I am trying to use it to crack my short night issues midweek. I dont need it at the weekend as I can WILD.

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## evildoctor

[QUOTE=Noogah;1221320]Lol. Thanks. I miss posting. Mayhaps we can dual via pm sometime?[/QUOTE)

Sure we can. :smiley: 






> And what is the maximum dose? It will be different for me than it is for you, you being older. Is there some website that talks about this?



I normally do a little research on each supplement to find its safe levels. Wikipeida is not a bad source and often gives the maximum dose. I also might google a supplement with keywords such as "L-Tyrosine risks" etc.

In terms of the galantamine, Choline & Theanine I am not taking any more than recommended by Yurchak in his book.

Now I weigh 200 pounds. If for example you weigh a lot less than this then I would divide my dosages by the same proportion. Therefore if you were say 150 pounds you would take only 3 theanine versus my 4, 2 alpha GPC versus my 3.

I am sure that the BUZZ is the important thing - it might work equally as well to replace the nicotine patch with green tea extract, a caffine pill or yohimbe. Nicotine I think makes DMT in the brain and so gives your dreaming an extra kick







> Oh yeah, and, if you don't mind, how much DOES this cost a night?



Lol - never really thought of it in terms of cost per night. Lets see.

The nicotine patches are the most expensive item. I buy in bulk from amazon - I think a 14 patch kit costs about 30 bucks. SO that would be 2$ an attempt.

Galantamine is not cheap either - you can shop around on line and find it for about 40$ for 90 caps. I need 2 per attempt but you would probably only need 1 - so thats 40 cents per.

Huperzine A works also for me - and is alot cheaper - about 17$ for 120 caps (15 cents per)

The N-acetly L-Tyrosine is 15$ for 120caps (12 cents per). The L-tyrosine is 19$ for 300 (6 cents per)

Theanine is abot 30$ for 120 - 25 cents each.

DMAE and the B vitamines are very cheap. I buy the huge bulk bottles from The Vitamine Shoppe - eg a huge bottle of 500 Niacin caps is 30$ but they last forever,

Roughly adding up the above I would guestimate about 5$ per night. Which is about the same as a movie ticket.

If you repleace the nictotine patch with green tea or some caffine plus use Huperzine A instead of Galantamine - and use a reduced dose then you could probably do it for about 2$.

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## bewareofit1505

> why the juice? i know many talk of apple juice... i'm senstive to apples so i've ruled that out... but why juice?



what do u mean ur sensitive to apples?

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## ImALucidDreamer

Evildoctor,

What is the most important supplement for those who might want to start testing supplements?





> ...but the basic approach is to work yourself up into a passion/frenzy then repeatedly shout and scream your intention to get lucid and recognize you are dreaming. I know it sounds odd but it works better for me.



Can you elaborate on this?  How do you work yourself up into a passion?  How long?  Does your family think you are crazy?

Thanks for posting your successes.  I'm a 41 yr old with a job and kids and stress and it seems when I've been at work all day my recall and dream quality goes down.  The only two lucid moments I've had have been on the weekend.

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## evildoctor

> Evildoctor,
> 
> What is the most important supplement for those who might want to start testing supplements?
> 
> 
> 
> Can you elaborate on this?  How do you work yourself up into a passion?  How long?  Does your family think you are crazy?
> 
> Thanks for posting your successes.  I'm a 41 yr old with a job and kids and stress and it seems when I've been at work all day my recall and dream quality goes down.  The only two lucid moments I've had have been on the weekend.



Hey ImaLucidDreamer!

We are very similar - I am 41 at the end of this month, also work all day and have a wife, daughter and 2 dogs. Luckily I only have to get up early to go down town chicago 4 days a week - so I get 3 nights a week when I can LD.

I used to suffer from a lot of "dry spells" midweek when I wouldnt even dream yet alone lucid dream. Try getting a bottle of N-Acetly L-Tyrosine and also a bottle of DMAE - take two of both before bed on a work night. You WILL dream. DMAE is a choline precursor and the L-Tysrosine boosts Dopamine and. norpinephrine

I am still trying to find ways to crack LDing on short work nights when I only get 5-6 hours in bed. I have had some interesting results with taking choline precursors before bed and using a Calea extract with an REM Dreamer MAsk - I am sure I am close and will post back once I find something that really works with repeatable results.


TO start with supplements then I would recommend taking a serotonin precursor before bed on a night when you have at least 8 or more hours of sleep. This will give you a nice REM rebound. Try 3-5mg of melotonin or a few tabs of L-tryphophan or 5-htp. 

The classic all popular combo is to take some galantamine with a choline precursor such as Alpha GPC AFTER 5 hours of sleep, works really well (even better) in combo with the melotonin.

I have had much success with these simple combos. Most of the other stuff I take just boosts vividness and recall or keeps you on the wake/sleep boundary longer.

Nicotine patches are excellent - but avoid unless you are a smoker - and if you are not and really want to try them then get a low dose. Put one on after 5 hours of sleep.

DOnt worry about the ritual stuff - affirmations and RC's work well for most people. I have had an interest in the occult since I was 11 and have a huge library of esoteric works. Lucid DReaming has been traditionally called Astral PRojection by the occult through the centuries - and the approaches are similar. The rituals are elaborate and involved and add a great deal of drama - so I find these a more powerful way to assert/focus my mind before bed on my requirement to become Lucid that night. Learning this stuff takes years and may offend some of your existing religious principles - as such its not for everyone.

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## beachgirl

Hey, evildoctor,

thanks for all your interesting posting on this,

let's see, from what you are saying, That makes it 
3 - 5- mg melatonin
900 mg N-A-Tyrosine
260 mg DMAE

then later on in the night, early morning,
possibly
900 agpc
600 mcg huperzine 
some theanine

i have avoided galantamine since i only tried it once but it gave me a migraine and someone told me it was a powerful vasodilator...

(would love to try it again though but am thrilled if at least huperzine is worth trying)

ps if mugwort tastes so bad can't you just buy the pill form? or do you?

question, DMAE gives me a stiff neck on amounts over 50 mg. how does one get around that? how do you build up? 

ps i bought some topical theanine (bioentopic brand) - thought it might help with absorbabilty.

i also use a b-complex from thorne b#5 with 250 mg b5-  and the b's are all the coenzyme active type...

i noticed your simple formula didn't mention the b's but i am guessing you would want some in there? 

also are these doses weight dependent at all? (i weigh in at 105 lbs). 

thanks again,
beachgirl

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## evildoctor

> Hey, evildoctor,
> 
> thanks for all your interesting posting on this,
> 
> let's see, from what you are saying, That makes it 
> 3 - 5- mg melatonin
> 900 mg N-A-Tyrosine
> 260 mg DMAE
> 
> ...




Thanks Beachgirl

I do use B vits : 500mg Pantothenic Acid 250mg Niacin - These are B5 and B3 - The N-acetly L-tyrosine contains a big dose of B12 also.

Mugwort tastes nice - its wormword that tastes nasty, you can get wormwood in a liquid extract (still nasty) - not sure about pills though.

If DMAE gives you a headache then give it a miss, the AGPC is also a choline precursor and one of the better tollerated and absorbd ones - so hoepfully that will work better for you.

I would advise cutting all my doses by half - I weigh twice what you do  ::shock::  and I am sure that this is good advice. If the half doseages dont have much effect then increase them a little at a time.

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## ImALucidDreamer

evildoctor,

thanks for the reply.  your post got me really thinking about LDS.  I think I'm going to do some careful experimentation with the combo you mention below.  





> ...
> The classic all popular combo is to take some galantamine with a choline precursor such as Alpha GPC AFTER 5 hours of sleep, works really well (even better) in combo with the melotonin.
> ...



What was your LD per week (or month) rate before LDS?  After LDS?

Are you taking measures to prevent desensitization? 

I'm reading The Power of Suppliments book now.  It really lays it out nicely.

thanks,

imaLDer

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## beachgirl

EvilDR, while i have you on the line here...
there is some controvery about b6.
i take the 5-p-5 form - the standard dose (25 mg of p5p and 25 of some other p thing) )
my friend says i could take twice that amount and be fine.
so many opinions.
what do you think?
ps last night i tried something with a mix of things in it, kava, passionflower, mugwort, 
chamomile, hops, wild oats, peppermint and skullcap... only took 2/3 dose... something called "serenity"... anyway gave me a nice lucid dream... several to be exact.

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## ImALucidDreamer

beachgirl,

i just read this and it is great.  really gives a scientific explanation of evildoc's methods.  really lays it out nicely.

http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Lucid...DateDescending

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## ethan_hines

> (and N-A L-T are precusors for these)



What are N-A-L-T precusors?





> As to DMAE - I found out about this from Dreamviews. It is for memory function yes - and since I started using it found it does greatly improve recall with continued use. Oddly I think it is also a Choline precursor - which would suggest that before bed is not the best time to take it



Why would taking a choline precursor before bed be a bad idea?

Thanks For the Info
EH

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## ImALucidDreamer

> ...Why would taking a choline precursor before bed be a bad idea?



Because (from what I've read, unfortunately not yet experienced) the timing of each type of supplement is important.  The choline precursors need to be taken just before attempting to become lucid, typically just before the "back to bed" part of a wbtb.  So you go to bed at 10, wake up at 4:30, take the choline precursor, then back to bed.

The melatonin type supplements are typically taken just before bed, say at 10pm.

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## evildoctor

Sorry Beachgirl for the late reply - im on a business trip abroad and not posting as much (im in Munich typing this).

B6 is important for the synthesis of amino acids and neurotranmitters. This from Wikipedia:

*Pyridoxal phosphate-dependent enzymes play a role in the biosynthesis of four important neurotransmitters: serotonin, epinephrine, norepinephrine and gamma-aminobutyric acid*

The key ones here are of course for dreaming are serotonin, epinephrine and norepinephrine.

The upper limit for B6 per day appears to be 80-100mg a day depending on your age (these amounts are for adults - 18 and above) - less for younger teens.

I like the sound of your serenity blend. I like mugwort and find it works well. I run out recently and have a pound on order. 

I am also experimenting with calea extracts. Not so much at night but I want to see its effects during the day. I like to meditate and get HH's after about 20 minutes if Im already tired while meditating. I want to see what happens if I combine a large calea dose (maybe with mugwort also) and then meditate.

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## evildoctor

> What are N-A-L-T precusors?
> 
> 
> Why would taking a choline precursor before bed be a bad idea?
> 
> Thanks For the Info
> EH



N-A-L-T = N-acetyl L-Tyrosine. This is a supplement that boosts dopamine, epinephrine and norepinephrine. These are also important to dreaming (although most supplements focus on Serotonin and Choline).

Choline precursors should be taken at WBTB. The idea is to get deep sleep out of the way as Choline boosts REM sleep and dreaming in the later half of the night. Taking Choline before bed might be counter productive. I have found that some DMAE taken before bed on short nights when I have to work and cant WILD will at least give me some nice dreams.

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## evildoctor

> evildoctor,
> 
> thanks for the reply.  your post got me really thinking about LDS.  I think I'm going to do some careful experimentation with the combo you mention below.  
> 
> 
> 
> What was your LD per week (or month) rate before LDS?  After LDS?
> 
> Are you taking measures to prevent desensitization? 
> ...



Hard to say really. When I first started LDing I started with supplements almost immediately. I looked up LDS on wikipedia and found that the key chemicals involved are serotonin, choline, dopamine and norepinephrine. So I then googled for supplements that contained these key substances and took it from there.

In the early days I started off with 5HTP and Trypothan before bed and then N-Acetly L-Tyrosine at WBTB. I used to have about 2-3 LDs a month with this simple combo.

Then over the last year I explored more, added supplements, change the combos and doses, until I found the "perfect" combo for me.

Also of course I have refined my reality checks, affirmations, WILD approach etc. These probably also have increased my success rate.

After the alcoholic excesses of thanksgiving I made Last Sunday night a WILD night. My combo worked with its usual success and I had 4 good LD's. One was an epic and huge LD that just went on and on for ever - I lost luciditiy occasionally during the dream - which was fun because then the 'plot' took me to new strange places - and I then became lucid again.

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## SKA

Evil Doctor, I don't think it's healthy to take such amounts of supplements.
I think it is possible that this mix may be very mentally and/or physically harming and debalancing.

You're messing around with your body's BioChemistry; an Ingenious, complicated system that you, as well as scientists, have not even begun to understand fully.
Taking 1 to 5 supplements for Lucid Dreaming wouldn't be a problem I guess, but mixing SUCH great numbers of different supplement is playing Russian Roulette to your physiological chemistry.

And even if it ever DOES contribute to Lucid Dreaming how would you be able to tell which of the 100 supplements you took was responsible? 

We're supposed to get our nutrients from food: Fish, Meat, Eggs, Nuts, Vegetables, Fruits, Grains, Oils, Herbs..etc Taking supplements is not going to be enough to replace proper nourishment. There's more nutrients in bread, meat, fish, vegetables and fruit than scientists have proven there to be.

SO just eat food rich in Nutrients desirable for Lucid Dreaming and quit the biochemical debalancing of your system. Or take one or 2 supplemets, not that long list you showed us before. Can't be healthy I tell ya.

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## evildoctor

Thanks Ska,

Im pretty sure we have had a similar conversation before on the Lucid Aids forum.

To be fair I did say my method is extreme and not for those that worry about supplementation.

In answer to your points:

No I have not noticed any side effects or imbalances. I did experiment with a Dopermine precursor that I noticed did increase agression - and stopped using it for that reason. Tyrosine raises dopermine levels without causing aggression - which is why I preffer it.

The only other "side effects" have been positive. After all DMAE, Alpha GPC and others are all so called "smart pills" that boost memory and mind function. I think Tyrosine even helps with hangovers.

Like I said to you before, I am forty, and the risks(or not) I choose to take with my body are entirely my own business. Sure science doesnt have all the answers yet, but lets be honest here theres 1000's of other ways of damaging yourself be it smoking, drinking, recreational drugs, sports, etc. I enjoy LDing - lets call it my little vice and I am OK with my approach with supplements.

Also, I did not just suddenly start taking mouthfuls of supplements. Read the thread again. I worked up, changing the combo's, doseages, time periods, etc. After a year of experimenting I know what does NOT work and WHAT DOES - for me.

I used my combo again last Saturday/Sunday night and had another 4 long and highly vivid LD's. When I only use 1 or 2 or none then my success rate goes down to one lucid every two weeks - versus multiple quality lucids when I use my combo. I also enjoy eating what I want to eat and so do not care for any kind of balanced diet regieme. I dont care for vegetables and dont much like fish. I have used vitamine supplements pretty much my whole adult life.


Again, thanks for the concern, but really you could say the same to anyone who likes riding quad bikes for a hobby, or smokes grass, or takes psychoactives, or smokes, or likes drinking beer with their pepperoni pizza............. I am an adult and will do exactly what I will with my life/body.

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## ethan_hines

Evil...would you recomend any racetams like piracetam? If so when is the best time to take it (during the day, before bed, after 4-5hrs sleep)
Thanks

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## evildoctor

Sorry Ethan - I havent tried any of the racetams. Looks like they might be promising for boosting recall, but I cant recommend them as I have not tried them out.

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