# Lucid Dreaming > Dream Control >  >  Fighting in dreams

## ruff23

Often i get into fights in my LD's with random people/monsters (lol) and i find i have the ability to choke, hit them against things or kick, but i cant punch with my full force, i always feel like im throwing realy weak punches and there no force behind them.

Anyone else have the problem with realy weak punches that feel they have no force behind them?

How could i fix this?

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## Oneironaut Zero

The most effective way that I got around this problem (It used to happen to me _all_ the time) is to eliminate the thought of throwing the punch and having it travel through the air. Simply imagine your punch leaving your side and suddenly connecting with the target. Don't really think about your _body_ throwing the punch. Just _visualize_ the punch slamming into your opponent's face. Same thing goes with dodging at superhuman speeds, too.  ::cooler::  Just forget that your body is there, and visualize yourself _automatically_ ducking and weaving around whatever's being thrown at you.

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## Luminous

> The most effective way that I got around this problem (It used to happen to me _all_ the time) is to eliminate the thought of throwing the punch and having it travel through the air. Simply imagine your punch leaving your side and suddenly connecting with the target. Don't really think about your _body_ throwing the punch. Just _visualize_ the punch slamming into your opponent's face. Same thing goes with dodging at superhuman speeds, too.  Just forget that your body is there, and visualize yourself _automatically_ ducking and weaving around whatever's being thrown at you.



This is good advice.  ::D:  It also helps to have combat skills from your waking life, when I punch in a dream, I use the "weight" of my whole dream body, it works like a charm.  :smiley:

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## ruff23

will defiently try the instant punch tech lol  ::D:

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## ChrissyMaria

Aw man i got the same issue, i always feel like when i fight in dreams im powerless

like i can toss people, push people, but punches don't work, ill try what you said

ever feel like you can't keep your eyes open in a dream? like you feel, sleepy, in your dream?

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## Barns

> ever feel like you can't keep your eyes open in a dream? like you feel, sleepy, in your dream?



Hmmn, that sounds strange. I've never had that before.

Maybe you are tired in real life.

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## ChrissyMaria

> Hmmn, that sounds strange. I've never had that before.
> 
> Maybe you are tired in real life.



I am alot of the time, i feel tired for no reason most of the time

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## arne saknussemm

You shouldn't be fighting them. Don't touch them at all.

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## Barns

> You shouldn't be fighting them. Don't touch them at all.



Any reason?

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## ImageAll

I've sometimes had this fighting problem... As guerilla has, I also often experience foggy vision in dreams. It's annoying. >_>

Never really had it in lucid dreams though, or at least not _nearly_ as bad as non-lucid dreams.

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## phonix

Man punching is sooo old school!  :tongue2:  

Use magic or other stuff like swords, its super cool and very effective.Well it is effective with me.

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## ChrissyMaria

> I've sometimes had this fighting problem... As guerilla has, I also often experience foggy vision in dreams. It's annoying. >_>
> 
> Never really had it in lucid dreams though, or at least not _nearly_ as bad as non-lucid dreams.



do you ever get that feeling of your eyelids getting heavy while dreaming? thats my main problem of not being lucid

I FALL ASLEEP IN MY F***ING DREAMS LOL

how can i go lucid if my dream self is always so sleepy and groggy?  ::D:

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## arne saknussemm

First, why in the world would you want to?

And second, you should ask one of them sometime if you benefit from fighting with it.

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## Barns

> First, why in the world would you want to?
> 
> And second, you should ask one of them sometime if you benefit from fighting with it.



What about if it is an unavoidable situation?

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## Oneironaut Zero

> First, why in the world would you want to?
> 
> And second, you should ask one of them sometime if you benefit from fighting with it.



First: because fictional action is entertaining.

Second: which one should I ask, the one that's trying to shoot me, or the one that's trying to eat me alive?

Third: why would you believe a DC is going to give you an _objective_ answer?

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## ruff23

Hehe i know punching is old school but i dont always remeber i can shoot electricty outa my hands.
Some DC's are realy annoying and do deserve abit of a choke and punch in the face  :tongue2:  Or some are so evil that after you have been running away form them for so long its easier just to turn back and take them on.

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## Elwood

> The most effective way that I got around this problem (It used to happen to me _all_ the time) is to eliminate the thought of throwing the punch and having it travel through the air. Simply imagine your punch leaving your side and suddenly connecting with the target. Don't really think about your _body_ throwing the punch. Just _visualize_ the punch slamming into your opponent's face. Same thing goes with dodging at superhuman speeds, too.  Just forget that your body is there, and visualize yourself _automatically_ ducking and weaving around whatever's being thrown at you.



DBZ STYLE!!!! WHOO-HOO!!!!

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## Elwood

> First, why in the world would you want to?
> 
> And second, you should ask one of them sometime if you benefit from fighting with it.



!? Dont even go there girlfriend.  

Lucid dreams are a great way to relieve stress

Muscle memory from lucid dreams is very real and can improve your real time fighting skills

I like to beat the hell out of people that get in the way of my objectives

SIMPLE

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## arne saknussemm

>>What about if it is an unavoidable situation?<<

If one of them grabs you, and IF YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN'T AVOID THE SITUATION, then wrestle with it until it goes inert.  Don't throw punches.  Just wrestle it.  Then when it's exausted, ask it its name.

Then e-mail me, and I'll tell you what to do next.

And to the person who said that it's "just a fictional situation" -- even if that's true, which I don't acknowledge, then you're an ass for wanting to hurt something.  Why do you want to do that?

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## Oneironaut Zero

> And to the person who said that it's "just a fictional situation" -- even if that's true, which I don't acknowledge, then you're an ass for wanting to hurt something.  Why do you want to do that?



The whole point of it being a _fictional_ situation, is that I'm not "hurting something."

For stomping on the heads of athropomorphic mushrooms, to advance in Super Mario world...does that make me a sadist?

For imagining opponents in my mind, while doing a kata exercise, for a karate class...does that make me a violent person who _wants_ to hurt people?

Think, before you call me an ass. Thanks.

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## arne saknussemm

Well it's OK if you just FANTASIZE about hurting things, right?

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## Oneironaut Zero

Objectively? Yes.

I still choose not to attack DC's for no reason. All of my fighting (at least 99&#37 :wink2:  is self-defense, _however_ I realize that this is nothing but personal preference, and that the only reason to denounce someone who enjoys fictional violence is if they begin to let that "fantasy" blur the line between reality and fiction - someone mentally unstable enough to actually act, in waking life, upon those fantasies.

Are the creators of shows like _Heroes_ and _Smallville_ bad people, because they have to imagine their characters hurting other people, to create the story?

Are martial artists bad people because they have to imagine themselves hurting others, to train, and enjoy the _sport_ of fighting with other people who are _willing_ to do so? (even if they are perfect gentlemen, on the street)

There is a difference between "Fantasizing about hurting someone" because you subconsciously wish you could go out and hurt someone, and "enjoying fictional violence" because you _know it's fiction_ and there is no chance, ever, of someone actually getting hurt.

The difference is called "common sense."

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## arne saknussemm

I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer had fantasies of hurting things beefore he actually started doing it.

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## Oneironaut Zero

> I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer had fantasies of hurting things beefore he actually started doing it.



I'm sure Stan Lee had fantasies of super-heroes and villains causing universal destruction and casualties, during the countless battles that his own mind created. I'm sure he visualized Apocalypse and Magneto committing multiple homicides on the unsuspecting citizens of his fictional cities. I'm sure he's gotten some sort of personal joy by creating fictional characters that are some of the meanest, most sadistic badasses to ever grace a comic book page...

..and, as far as we know, he's a very nice and charming man who has never hurt a soul in his life.


....What's Your Point?  ::wtf::

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## ImageAll

> I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer had fantasies of hurting things beefore he actually started doing it.



Jeffrey Dahmer obviously also had the intention and desire to cause harm, due to the probability that his heart was full of malice, discontent and hate. People like Jeffrey become what they become because of what they already are and how they grow on that, not because their form of fantasies form them. It's all about what's in one's heart and how it's dealt with.

The same kind of principles apply to knowledge, as that is what is brought by exercise. People who watch CSI don't become criminals because they know more on how to avoid being caught, or because they are shown the ideas and methods of murder of these fictional criminals. It's all about how you use that knowledge, and that will be determined by what your heart and mind focus on. In the case of those such as Jeffrey, this is hate.

Martial artists don't turn bad because they know how to handle a fight. They don't go mugging raping and killing people because they know how to do it. They don't do those things because they practice what are _potentially_ harmful and dangerous techniques on mannequins (which are meant to represent real people). There can be bad people who have an understanding and a liking to practice martial arts, but the understanding and liking to practice aren't the reasons they are bad.

IMO it would take an unexperienced and quite judgmental person to believe knowledge and practices of _potentially_ harmful things dictate the behavior and course of life of _any_ individual.

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## AspirationRealized

What a ridiculous conversation. This isn't a pacifism forum.

Sometimes the world's not perfect. You can't wrestle your way out when your assailant has a knife.

And don't pull the "its just a dream" card. Because if you feel that way, why should we be pacifists in our dreams?

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## AspirationRealized

> Jeffrey Dahmer obviously also had the intention and desire to cause harm, due to the probability that his heart was full of malice, discontent and hate. People like Jeffrey become what they become because of what they already are and how they grow on that, not because their form of fantasies form them. It's all about what's in one's heart and how it's dealt with.
> 
> The same kind of principles apply to knowledge, as that is what is brought by exercise. People who watch CSI don't become criminals because they know more on how to avoid being caught, or because they are shown the ideas and methods of murder of these fictional criminals. It's all about how you use that knowledge, and that will be determined by what your heart and mind focus on. In the case of those such as Jeffrey, this is hate.
> 
> Martial artists don't turn bad because they know how to handle a fight. They don't go mugging raping and killing people because they know how to do it. They don't do those things because they practice what are _potentially_ harmful and dangerous techniques on mannequins (which are meant to represent real people). There can be bad people who have an understanding and a liking to practice martial arts, but the understanding and liking to practice aren't the reasons they are bad.
> 
> IMO it would take an unexperienced and quite judgmental person to believe knowledge and practices of _potentially_ harmful things dictate the behavior and course of life of _any_ individual.



Very true. I'd like to add, potentially stupid person to the list of that last statement.

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## Caradon

And remember everyone. Oh my god, don't touch any trees! ::rolllaugh::

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## Elwood

Dont even look at them f*ckers!

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## slaughtermania

that has happened to me a lot, often underwater... no idea how to solve that

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## hootman

> >>What about if it is an unavoidable situation?<<
> 
> If one of them grabs you, and IF YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN'T AVOID THE SITUATION, then wrestle with it until it goes inert.  Don't throw punches.  Just wrestle it.  Then when it's exausted, ask it its name.
> 
> Then e-mail me, and I'll tell you what to do next.
> 
> And to the person who said that it's "just a fictional situation" -- even if that's true, which I don't acknowledge, then you're an ass for wanting to hurt something.  Why do you want to do that?



Hippie.  ::sniper::

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## phonix

> You shouldn't be fighting them. Don't touch them at all.



WTF its a dream for goodness sake so wat!!!




> First, why in the world would you want to?
> 
> 
> And second, you should ask one of them sometime if you benefit from fighting with it.



They are DCs and talk rubbish half the time, fighting or hurting is the only way sometimes of getting a good message.





> >>What about if it is an unavoidable situation?<<
> 
> If one of them grabs you, and IF YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN'T AVOID THE SITUATION, then wrestle with it until it goes inert.  Don't throw punches.  Just wrestle it.  Then when it's exausted, ask it its name.
> 
> Then e-mail me, and I'll tell you what to do next.
> 
> And to the person who said that it's "just a fictional situation" -- even if that's true, which I don't acknowledge, then you're an ass for wanting to hurt something.  Why do you want to do that?



WTF they are not REAL, they don't feel PAIN punch the heck outta them, lighten up and have fun.





> Hippie.



100% agree :tongue2:

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## Funnel

I tried that punching technique last night and it worked very well!  Thanks for the tip.

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## Oros

i got the same problem. all kind of aggresive stuff i do is lame, or almost all stuff. i was going to shoot a ninja with my muzzleloadder when i missed and then attacked with my ninjasword. i lost all my strengh. it was like when waking up in the morning and try to do something that requires strength. it was real lame. i felt like a girl fighting with wrong hand.

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## Oneironaut Zero

> I tried that punching technique last night and it worked very well!  Thanks for the tip.



Nice! Glad I could help ya out.  ::cooler::

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## Photolysis

> I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer had fantasies of hurting things beefore he actually started doing it.



Are you religious by any chance? Seriously, just wondering.



And if you can't distinguish between fiction and reality that's your problem. If you 'hurt' a figment of your imagination in your dream, no-one is hurt. Nothing is hurt. The object does not exist in reality therefore the concept of pain is nonsensical.

I enjoy video games that feature violence. Does that mean I would want to go around shooting people because it's fun? Not in the slightest.

I have to seriously question how healthy it would be for someone of your intellect to lucid dream, given that you don't appear to understand fundamental differences between reality and fantasy.

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## AfterHours

At first, my head almost exploded from reading Arne's posts.  

Afterwards though, it got really creepy, the way he's so seriously associating the dreamworld and DC's with the social rules and emotions of real life.

The poster above said, "if you can't distinguish between fiction and reality that's your problem."  That's basically what it comes down to, that's what separates psychopaths from normal people.





> to the person who said that it's "just a fictional situation" -- even if that's true, *which I don't acknowledge*



Arne, seriously man...watch out for yourself.

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## Elite

> The most effective way that I got around this problem (It used to happen to me _all_ the time) is to eliminate the thought of throwing the punch and having it travel through the air. Simply imagine your punch leaving your side and suddenly connecting with the target. Don't really think about your _body_ throwing the punch. Just _visualize_ the punch slamming into your opponent's face. Same thing goes with dodging at superhuman speeds, too.  Just forget that your body is there, and visualize yourself _automatically_ ducking and weaving around whatever's being thrown at you.



That's exactly what I do  all the time =]

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## arne saknussemm

All of you are cordially invited to join my dreaming group and demonstrate what you can do, besides engaging in torture fantasies.

Let me tell you though that all who have joined it full of swaggering and abusive talk have fallen silent very quickly.

Let's see if any of you aspiring waterboarders will be any different.

If you want to interpret that as my calling you out -- yes, that's what I'm doing.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/luciddreamingtasks/

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## Oneironaut Zero

Had it not been in the forum of an insult (and a completely melodramatic one, at that, as i don't think any of us were talking about torturing people), I might have given it some thought.

But since you want to continue to play holier-than-thou, just because of a difference of opinion, I can already tell that it's not going to be an environment I'll want to waste my time in attending.

In other words: "what I can do" is plastered all over this site. You wanna see it? Find it for yourself.  :tongue2:

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## arne saknussemm

>>Had it not been in the forum of an insult (and a completely
 melodramatic one, at that, as i don't think any of us were talking about torturing
 people), I might have given it some thought.<<

I'm sure.

More than a few people people have said that they have lucid dreams all the time, but when they've join my group, that ability has mysteriously disappeared.

The ability to do it is a lot more rare than most people would suspect.

And there's no defense for engaging in torture fantasies, so everyone should stop trying to defend it.

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## Oneironaut Zero

> I'm sure.



I didn't ask.





> More than a few people people have said that they have lucid dreams all the time, but when they've join my group, that ability has mysteriously disappeared.



Ah, so I suppose we should just put a disclaimer on the door of this website saying: "This site is for entertainment purposes only. One cannot truly believe that anyone else on this site can actually lucid dream until they've joined arne's group."

Seriously, how fucking pompous can you be? You should start up a thread telling everyone here at DV how full of shit they are, simultaneously. You know, get it all out at once.





> The ability to do it is a lot more rare than most people would suspect.



Who's suspecting what? You lost me. I don't think anyone here is accounting for any "suspicions" of anyone else but themselves. What does "how rare lucid dreams are" have anything to do with my own experiences?

Also, where did you get this oh-so-certain statistic? I'd like to know.





> And there's no defense for engaging in torture fantasies, so everyone should stop trying to defend it.



You're unbelievably misguided. If you think the words "fighting" and "torture" are interchangeable, you need to slip back into grade school, cause there are obviously a few pieces of the educational puzzle that managed to slip right passed you.

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## arne saknussemm

Now really, how can anyone have a discussion with someone who fights on behalf of torture fantasies?

And furthermore, who walks away shouting back profanely and abusively after he's been called out?

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## HonerableMoUsE

I've had the same experience; its like punching underwater.
I have no problem with fighting in dreams, but maybe this inability to punch is directly reflected from real life experience. In other words, with me, I have never thrown a punch into someone's face in real life; I have no idea what that would feel both emotionally and physically. That could translate into not being able to punch in an LD. . .cause' you can't comprehend an action like that.

So perhaps if you want to train for being an 'LD fighter' try punching a punching bag in real life; get your body, muscles and hands to feel it in real life. Then try it in an LD!

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## Oneironaut Zero

> If you think the words "fighting" and "torture" are interchangeable, you need to slip back into grade school, cause there are obviously a few pieces of the educational puzzle that managed to slip right passed you.







> Now really, how can anyone have a discussion with someone who fights on behalf of torture fantasies?



This, alone, proves you to be nothing but a troll.  :smiley: 





> And furthermore, who walks away shouting back profanely and abusively after he's been called out?



Who is obligated to _prove himself_ (on a completely unrelated issue, mind you) to a troll who _entered_ the discussion hissing unwarranted insults? 

Hmmm... ::hrm::

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## G0MPgomp

> Often i get into fights in my LD's with random people/monsters (lol) and i find i have the ability to choke, hit them against things or kick, but i cant punch with my full force, i always feel like im throwing realy weak punches and there no force behind them.
> 
> Anyone else have the problem with realy weak punches that feel they have no force behind them?
> 
> How could i fix this?



Yes. And stop fighting as you wake up... 

Give up and be killed, and wake up! :p

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## Oneironaut Zero

> I've had the same experience; its like punching underwater.
> I have no problem with fighting in dreams, but maybe this inability to punch is directly reflected from real life experience. In other words, with me, I have never thrown a punch into someone's face in real life; I have no idea what that would feel both emotionally and physically. That could translate into not being able to punch in an LD. . .cause' you can't comprehend an action like that.
> 
> So perhaps if you want to train for being an 'LD fighter' try punching a punching bag in real life; get your body, muscles and hands to feel it in real life. Then try it in an LD!



I think you're correct. When we don't know what to expect from something, it's most likely that, in dreams, we will be met with some kind of resistance. Even if you do try punching a bag, it will feel a bit different when putting it into action, in a dream, so you may or may not still meet some resistance. But, I'm sure it could help a bit.  :smiley:

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## tyrantt23

Wow, this is somewhat unrelated to the topic... but after seeing the statements made by *arne saknussemm*, I got a bit curious. I looked through some of his other posts *arne saknussemm*  and came to the conclusion that he's pretty much like a dumbed down version of *Leo Volont*.  ::roll:: 

Just as arrogant, with the "I know the essence of dreams - you don't" belief, but without being anywhere near as articulate or insightful as Leo.

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## Oneiro

> Just as arrogant, with the "I know the essence of dreams - you don't" belief, but without being anywhere near as articulate or insightful as Leo.



To be fair to "arne", what he's saying is "I know the essence of _lucid_ dreaming, and you probably don't.." because he draws on his experience of running a dreaming group. Fair enough, I say. He's entitled to his opinion.

And anyway.. is this thread about fighting in _lucid_ dreaming, or just about fighting in normal dreaming? Because I don't see much written about lucidity, and I can't for the life of me understand any enjoyment in deliberately fighting for fun in a proper LD..

Just my opinion.

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## HonerableMoUsE

> I think you're correct. When we don't know what to expect from something, it's most likely that, in dreams, we will be met with some kind of resistance. Even if you do try punching a bag, it will feel a bit different when putting it into action, in a dream, so you may or may not still meet some resistance. But, I'm sure it could help a bit.



interesting theory. . .thanks!

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## Oneironaut Zero

> To be fair to "arne", what he's saying is "I know the essence of _lucid_ dreaming, and you probably don't.." because he draws on his experience of running a dreaming group. Fair enough, I say. He's entitled to his opinion.



Actually, "Arne" seems to think he knows, objectively, the essence of dreaming, in general. In looking at more of his earlier posts (yeah, I found that interesting too, tyrant) he has a stead-fast "dreams are metaphysical, and the characters within - even the trees - are separate entities, and you're a retard if you don't understand this" style of post. He's entitled to his opinion, sure, but when he presents that opinion in the form of condescending BS, and refuses to answer basic, logical questions (which he's been doing for more than a year now, judging from his spat with others, including Seeker, some time ago, it's much harder to see him as nothing but either a deluded individual or a troll. 





> And anyway.. is this thread about fighting in _lucid_ dreaming, or just about fighting in normal dreaming? Because I don't see much written about lucidity, and I can't for the life of me understand any enjoyment in deliberately fighting for fun in a proper LD..
> 
>  Just my opinion.



Well, there is no true distinction made, but I would have to say this has to do more with lucidity than anything else. If this was about non-lucid dreams, one wouldn't ask what we could do to make punching easier, because we can't really control our non-lucid dreams, to that degree. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm thinking LDs.

Now, going further, I'm curious, Oneiro; could you not understand any enjoyment in playing a fighting video game, such as Tekken, Dead or Alive, or Virtua Fighter? If not, why not, if so, what makes you feel a distinction between enjoying a game such as that and fighting in a proper LD?

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## Caradon

> All of you are cordially invited to join my dreaming group and demonstrate what you can do, besides engaging in torture fantasies.
> 
> Let me tell you though that all who have joined it full of swaggering and abusive talk have fallen silent very quickly.
> 
> Let's see if any of you aspiring waterboarders will be any different.
> 
> If you want to interpret that as my calling you out -- yes, that's what I'm doing.
> 
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/luciddreamingtasks/



 ::chuckle::  Why would I care?

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## tyrantt23

> Now, going further, I'm curious, Oneiro; could you not understand any enjoyment in playing a fighting video game, such as Tekken, Dead or Alive, or Virtua Fighter? If not, why not, if so, what makes you feel a distinction between enjoying a game such as that and fighting in a proper LD?



Very good point.

For me at least, it's not the fact that I'm hurting someone that makes it fun. It's the fact that I'm in an extremely realistic action setting, and I'm just acting it out.

For example, I remember my first lucid dream (ah... don't we all remember our first lucid dreams). Shortly after I became lucid, I was in this setting similar to a tekken fighting ring with pillars around the ring. 2 or 3 ninjas/fighters with swords and quarter-staffs jumped towards me and started to attack me... now, being lucid I could probably have tried to make them disappear, or ran away.

Instead, I chose to fight back for the simple action/adventurous  thrill of it.  I ended up slowing down time a couple of times which made the fight that more exciting.

Just like I enjoy watching fight sequences in movies, or as Oneironaut mentioned - play fighting video games, I also enjoy that same thrill in the vivid and realistic detail that only lucid dreams can provide. But once again, to clarify, I don't do it because I get a thrill of hurting other people... I do it for the thrill of the action sequence.  ::D:

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## Oneiro

> Now, going further, I'm curious, Oneiro; could you not understand any enjoyment in playing a fighting video game, such as Tekken, Dead or Alive, or Virtua Fighter? If not, why not ?



No, I don't really understand the enjoyment that some people get from playing such video games. They do absolutely nothing for me, don't "turn me on" at all. 30 years ago I quite liked playing a popular arcade game of the time called "Galaxian", but I soon got bored, and have had no interest in any video game since that time.

As for "Arne", I don't think it is what he says that is the problem, it's the way he says it that gets people's backs up, IMO.

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## Oneironaut Zero

> Very good point.
> 
> For me at least, it's not the fact that I'm hurting someone that makes it fun. It's the fact that I'm in an extremely realistic action setting, and I'm just acting it out.
> 
> For example, I remember my first lucid dream (ah... don't we all remember our first lucid dreams). Shortly after I became lucid, I was in this setting similar to a tekken fighting ring with pillars around the ring. 2 or 3 ninjas/fighters with swords and quarter-staffs jumped towards me and started to attack me... now, being lucid I could probably have tried to make them disappear, or ran away.
> 
> Instead, I chose to fight back for the simple action/adventurous thrill of it. I ended up slowing down time a couple of times which made the fight that more exciting.
> 
> Just like I enjoy watching fight sequences in movies, or as Oneironaut mentioned - play fighting video games, I also enjoy that same thrill in the vivid and realistic detail that only lucid dreams can provide. But once again, to clarify, I don't do it because I get a thrill of hurting other people... I do it for the thrill of the action sequence.



That's _exactly_ my stance on the whole thing.  :smiley: 





> No, I don't really understand the enjoyment that some people get from playing such video games. They do absolutely nothing for me, don't "turn me on" at all. 30 years ago I quite liked playing a popular arcade game of the time called "Galaxian", but I soon got bored, and have had no interest in any video game since that time.
> 
> As for "Arne", I don't think it is what he says that is the problem, it's the way he says it that gets people's backs up, IMO.



So are you completely against action movies? Comic books? Tom and Jerry cartoons? Mighty Morphin Power Rangers? Even Galaxian is a game about killing space aliens. It does have a violent premise. Do you dislike the game because you got bored, or because of it's violent nature? If the former (which I believe is what you said), how does that differ from fantasy violence in a lucid dream?

And I disagree about Arne. In everything from his telling people that their dream characters "don't like them" to telling them that we shouldn't touch DCs or interact with trees, I think he's completely off his rocker. But, yes, that's just my opinion.

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## Oneiro

> So are you completely against action movies? Comic books? Tom and Jerry cartoons? Mighty Morphin Power Rangers?



No of course not. Where did I ever say I was against them? I just said that I didn't relate to such things anymore. I don't "get" it anymore. Maybe it's an age thing.





> Even Galaxian is a game about killing space aliens. It does have a violent premise. Do you dislike the game because you got bored, or because of it's violent nature? If the former (which I believe is what you said), how does that differ from fantasy violence in a lucid dream?



Like I wrote, I just got bored with it. As far as comparing the "violence" of Galaxian with the "violence" that some use in LDing, I don't see the comparison at all. Your remark goes way over my head.





> And I disagree about Arne. In everything from his telling people that their dream characters "don't like them" to telling them that we shouldn't touch DCs or interact with trees, I think he's completely off his rocker. But, yes, that's just my opinion.



Well.. have you ever asked any DCs about such things? If "touching" them is dangerous or not for the dreamer? Why they actually interact with dreamers? Maybe you have.. but if you haven't, you should.

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## Oneironaut Zero

> No of course not. Where did I ever say I was against them? I just said that I didn't relate to such things anymore. I don't "get" it anymore. Maybe it's an age thing.



That was a misunderstanding on my part. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I thought your saying that there was nothing wrong with Arne's stance was your being in agreement with his stance.





> Like I wrote, I just got bored with it. As far as comparing the "violence" of Galaxian with the "violence" that some use in LDing, I don't see the comparison at all. Your remark goes way over my head.



The comparison is that it's the same premise. It is the idea of killing fictional characters that is the same. Arne is making no distinction between those who simply punch a DC, and those who torture DCs. So, in thinking that you were on his side of the debate because of your saying that you "don't think it's what he says that is the problem," I illustrated how the two concepts could be linked.





> Well.. have you ever asked any DCs about such things? If "touching" them is dangerous or not for the dreamer? Why they actually interact with dreamers? Maybe you have.. but if you haven't, you should.



I do not believe that DCs are separate entities existing outside of my own mind. What would asking them that question do for me, if I believe that the answer originated in my brain?

Is that what you believe?

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## Oneiro

> I do not believe that DCs are separate entities existing outside of my own mind. What would asking them that question do for me, if I believe that the answer originated in my brain?



Now, you surprise me. Is this from the same man who yesterday wrote: "I do not deny him because I understand that there are many things I've witnessed personally that say "Hey...you know...there might be something to this..." ?

I'm surprised if in your LDing you haven't already witnessed certain things that make you doubt your presuppositions..

So.. what if you asked those questions and received answers that you weren't expecting? That completely contradicted your personal credo? What would you think then? That they still came from your subconscious?





> Is that what you believe?



This is a public forum. All I will say here is that I sit on the fence.

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## Oneironaut Zero

> Now, you surprise me. Is this from the same man who yesterday wrote: "I do not deny him because I understand that there are many things I've witnessed personally that say "Hey...you know...there might be something to this..." ?
> 
> I'm surprised if in your LDing you haven't already witnessed certain things that make you doubt your presuppositions..



Honestly, no. I wouldn't say that I've seen enough that makes me doubt. Sure, I reserve a bit of room, and I know that things happen that I wouldn't just readily try to explain away, but do I _believe_ it? No.

On the other hand, I've seen SO much more that implies that they aren't separate entities and are simply figments of my imagination - that they are no different from the characters I've created for illustrations and short stories. However, that little bit of reservation I mentioned is part of the reason why I don't haul off and go on DC killing sprees. I fight DC's that attack me. But I _enjoy_ those fights and action sequences, and my point is that, if I'm lucid and some DC walks up to me and punches me in the face, I'm not going to feel guilty about going Neo on him - not only because he deserves it, but because, fundamentally, I believe it to be fantasy.





> So.. what if you asked those questions and received answers that you weren't expecting? That completely contradicted your personal credo? What would you think then? That they still came from your subconscious?



It wouldn't surprise me. Of course I would take it into consideration, but with a huge grain of salt. We often have conscious/subconscious interaction, even in our every day lives, that conflict with the norm. Do you believe in the Id, Ego and Superego? Even if you don't, it's common knowledge that we, as humans, are sometimes in conflict with ourselves, mentally. Do you believe the different processes of the human psyche are separate entities?

Do you believe that someone with split personality disorder actually has multiple entities sharing their bodies?

I only ask because I feel it's relevant.





> This is a public forum. All I will say here is that I sit on the fence.



Fair enough.

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## phonix

I used dual swords in my lucid dream to fight, it was so cool! I had a sword fight with another DC it beats playing computers games. You can just do it in your lucid dreams!

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## Pancaka

arne (douche lol):

Like everyone else has said, it's not torture in the slightest. Also, artificial violence can be therapeutic. Would you rather have someone bottle up their anger and do something destructive in the real world, or get it out by fighting a DC (even a random one).

Now on topic: I haven't really had any fighting dreams lately. I really want to get lucid and just cause destruction on all the innocent people (THATS RIGHT ARNE!!! just not through torture. That's stupid. Raining comets and throwing cars is much more fun  ::evil:: ). I really want to start using telekinesis to fight, but as if I have the "Devil Bringer" (The guy on the left's right arm) from DMC4. A visible, telekinetic hand. That would be really cool to smash stuff with.

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## timster

oh yea, how do u do spells in dreams? i tried shooting lightning bolts outta my hand in my dream but nth happens... has it got something to do with the visualizing too?

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## Binsk

@ Timster

Never tried it personally, but with most things in LD's, you have to EXPECT it to happen. Having an image in your head of what will happen will probably help too. But if you don't expect it to happen, or have doubts that it won't work, it probably wont.

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## Oros

I'm not sure if i got a Lucid this night, beacuse i did just callad 2 dreams.
Anyway i think i was in a fight in a dream tonight, and i already knew that it was going to be hard, that's why i think i might been lucid. i got strategys for fighting beacuse i knew it ain't easy.

Anyway, I tried to expect it to be easy, but it still wasn't.
I didn't have any strenght. Guess that it's something you have to practise.

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## calh

> All of you are cordially invited to join my dreaming group and demonstrate what you can do, besides engaging in torture fantasies.
> 
> Let me tell you though that all who have joined it full of swaggering and abusive talk have fallen silent very quickly.
> 
> Let's see if any of you aspiring waterboarders will be any different.
> 
> If you want to interpret that as my calling you out -- yes, that's what I'm doing.
> 
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/luciddreamingtasks/



Sounds more like a cult to me. Follow the leader to salvation!

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## arne saknussemm

I've seen some bizarre things posted here, but that wins the prize.

It even tops the contention so adamantly expressed here that you ought to engage in torture fantasies during LDs.

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## calh

> I've seen some bizarre things posted here, but that wins the prize.
> 
> It even tops the contention so adamantly expressed here that you ought to engage in torture fantasies during LDs.



Maybe I do, who knows?

So, how's free will working out for you, sir?

Because for me - I dream about everything I wouldn't be able to do in the real world. It liberates me, gives me an extreme feeling of self-consciousness. Being able to see things from a restricted perspective (reallife) and a free perspective (dream) is something obviously haven't been able to separate, seeing as you're restricted even in your dreams.
I feel for you, I really do.

Oh, question!
Whats your stance towards violent games/movies?

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## arne saknussemm

You "feel for" me?  What are you talking about?

I don't pay any attention to such games.  

You don't know what's going on in LDs.  I don't "feel for" you because of that though.  It's just a fact.

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## Oneiro

> I dream about everything I wouldn't be able to do in the real world. It liberates me, gives me an extreme feeling of self-consciousness.



What has this got to do with lucid dreaming? Have you ever had a lucid dream?

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## arne saknussemm

>>Actually, "Arne" seems to think he knows, objectively, the essence of dreaming, in general. In looking at more of his earlier posts (yeah, I found that interesting too, tyrant) he has a stead-fast "dreams are metaphysical, and the characters within - even the trees - are separate entities,<,

That's right.

>>and you're a retard if you don't understand this" style of post.<<

That's wrong.

>>He's entitled to his opinion, sure, but when he presents that opinion in the form of condescending BS, and refuses to answer basic, logical questions <<

What questions are those? 

If you want to know what's going on, you know how to find out.

>>(which he's been doing for more than a year now, judging from his spat with others, including Seeker, some time ago,<<

HA, HA!

>>it's much harder to see him as nothing but either a deluded individual or a troll. <<

Someone who get his jollies through torture fantasies shouldn't talk that way.

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## calh

> What has this got to do with lucid dreaming? Have you ever had a lucid dream?



I'm sorry - I thought it was pretty obvious I meant dreaming as lucid dreaming, since I had the liberty to 'pick' whatever type of dream I wanted.

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## Oneironaut Zero

> That's right.



I want to know how you know this _as fact_. If you're not full of it, you can inform me without my having to cater to your desire for more participants in your user-group.





> If you want to know what's going on, you know how to find out.



See above. ^





> What questions are those?



See below. v





> Third: why would you believe a DC is going to give you an objective answer?







> For stomping on the heads of athropomorphic mushrooms, to advance in Super Mario world...does that make me a sadist?







> Are the creators of shows like Heroes and Smallville bad people, because they have to imagine their characters hurting other people, to create the story?







> Are martial artists bad people because they have to imagine themselves hurting others, to train, and enjoy the sport of fighting with other people who are willing to do so? (even if they are perfect gentlemen, on the street)







> Originally Posted by Originally Posted by arne saknussemm
> 
> I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer had fantasies of hurting things beefore he actually started doing it.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure Stan Lee had fantasies of super-heroes and villains causing universal destruction and casualties, during the countless battles that his own mind created. I'm sure he visualized Apocalypse and Magneto committing multiple homicides on the unsuspecting citizens of his fictional cities. I'm sure he's gotten some sort of personal joy by creating fictional characters that are some of the meanest, most sadistic badasses to ever grace a comic book page...
> 
> ..and, as far as we know, he's a very nice and charming man who has never hurt a soul in his life.
> ...







> Originally Posted by Originally Posted by arne saknussemm
> 
> The ability to do it (LD) is a lot more rare than most people would suspect.
> 
> 
> 
> Who's suspecting what? You lost me. I don't think anyone here is accounting for any "suspicions" of anyone else but themselves. What does "how rare lucid dreams are" have anything to do with my own experiences?
> 
> Also, where did you get this oh-so-certain statistic? I'd like to know.



Those are a few of the questions I've asked that you've dodged. Knock yourself out. I'm waiting.




> Originally Posted by Originally Posted by O
> 
> (which he's been doing for more than a year now, judging from his spat with others, including Seeker, some time ago,
> 
> 
> 
> HA, HA!



And yet, you have nothing to say about the (quite true) accusation.





> Originally Posted by Originally Posted by O
> 
> it's much harder to see him as nothing but either a deluded individual or a troll.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone who get his jollies through torture fantasies shouldn't talk that way.



Once again, you make a response that's totally unrelated to the statement and, really, doesn't even make any sense. It's only purpose is so you can use the phrase "someone who gets his jollies through torture fantasies" which, once again, proves you to be nothing but a troll that is more interested in spreading your dogma than actually having a conversation.

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## arne saknussemm

You know, you're right.  Torture is a good thing.

People who have lucid dreams should engage in torture fantasies.
I stand corrected.

Thank you.

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## Oneironaut Zero

No no no. Thank _you_, Arne, for proving my point...yet again.  ::cheers::

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## blackberry829

> I've seen some bizarre things posted here, but that wins the prize.
> 
> It even tops the contention so adamantly expressed here that you ought to engage in torture fantasies during LDs.



Rather than being ignorant, plugging your ears and saying that you're right, why don't you actually READ some of the posts?

Regardless, 

I have no experience with fighting in lucid dreams, though it's something I've been wanting to try out for a while, so if I feel I have this problem, I'll practice some of the techniques posted here.

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## gratismat

The problems I've encountered most when doing things like fighting characters is that they allways seem to be surounded with some kind ond of magic invisible bubble of sorts wich  makes it imposible to get a good hit, like your hand slows down and you don't hit properly, this is probably because of my lack of irl-combat; hm... maby I should go out practising some stuff on real people... hah, nah just kidding but I will practise more in my dreams :smiley:

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## Mini Man56

> What about if it is an unavoidable situation?



OOPS!!!! QUOTED WRONG THING!!!
It was supposed to be, "Why would you want to?"

1)weapons and martial artsare cool/fun.
2)Pwning people is REALLY fun.
3)relieve stress
4)Unavoidable
5)RL martial arts/archery/fencing training

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## kingofclutch

Here is the best way to fix it. Think superspeed and your arms and fists will fly at superspeed, but the problem is so will the other guy's. I did this in my dream about a week ago. Read it in my DJ if you want.

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## arne saknussemm

Exactly which posts do you want me to read that defend the turning of lucid dreams into torture fantasies?

Exactly how am I "ignorant" to think that behavior is wrong and indefensible?

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## ILikeTurtles

> Exactly which posts do you want me to read that defend the turning of lucid dreams into torture fantasies?
> 
> Exactly how am I "ignorant" to think that behavior is wrong and indefensible?



You sir, are either a moron or a troll. There is simply no other explanations.

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## arne saknussemm

> You sir, are either a moron or a troll. There is simply no other explanations.



Are you saying that torturing dream characters is good?

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## kingofclutch

> Are you saying that torturing dream characters is good?



It is good because it is fun and it lets out your anger.

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## arne saknussemm

I see.  What's fun about it?

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## ILikeTurtles

> Are you saying that torturing dream characters is good?



Who has posted anything about torturing DC's? No one is talking about torturing anybody. You are just a moron and take everything way out of context, then blow it way out of proportion.

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## arne saknussemm

> Who has posted anything about torturing DC's? No one is talking about torturing anybody. You are just a moron and take everything way out of context, then blow it way out of proportion.



I was talking to this other fellow:

Today, 06:46 PM   #*82* kingofclutch 
God

 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: CA
Gender:  Posts: 236 


Quote:
Originally Posted by *arne saknussemm*  
_Are you saying that torturing dream characters is good?_

It is good because it is fun and it lets out your anger.

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## ILikeTurtles

> I was talking to this other fellow:
> 
> Today, 06:46 PM   #*82* kingofclutch 
> God
> 
>  
> 
> Join Date: Mar 2008
> Location: CA
> ...



Wow, your dense. You do realize I quoted your direct reply to _my post_ right?

Now answer my question, aside from kingofclutch, who has said they want to torture dream characters?

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## arne saknussemm

I said this:  Are you saying that torturing dream characters is good?

Then King of Clutch said thts: It is good because it is fun and it lets out your anger.

Then I said this: I see.  What's fun about it?

Is that clear now Turtles?

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## LimoZeen!

Ok I'll mediate here. The above is a flame war. It should be avoided at all costs. However, reasonable arguements are not as frowned upon.

My two bits are that dream characters are imaginary. It's the same concept as video games - doing things you CAN'T do in real life. "Hurting" or "Killing" something imaginary doesn't really hurt or kill anyone in real life.

I would fight because you can fight ANYONE, and be assured of winning! Who cares if Yao Ming is 7'+ when your packing a dream ChuckNorrisEsque roundhouse kick?

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## Oneiro

> It is good because it is fun and it lets out your anger.



Okay. <stands up and clears throat> At the risk of getting my head bitten off, I'm going to say my piece.

I think fighting in LDing is pointless, a complete waste of energy.. and to those who say "What about if it's unavoidable?", well.. if you are actually lucid, it's never unavoidable.. you can get out of any dodgy situation IF you are lucid and realise what is happening..

And as for "torturing in Dreaming" as evinced by some on this thread and also on the "Ways of killing DCs" thread, I think that such people are basically sick and that such behaviour is extremely unhealthy.. they need professional help IMO. Go tell a psychiatrist that you have dreams like that and they'll fill you full of meds and probably label you "psychotic"... and I wouldn't disagree with that diagnosis as far as some on this forum go..

I also have to say that many of these so-called "lucid" experiences of fighting and torturing that I've read seem nothing like.. I read a lot about dreaming and oh so very little about lucidity. Sounds like "normal" dreaming to me.

There you go. Now go and bite my head off if you want to.

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## Omega Weapon

Fighting as an art or sport is tremendous in LDs, but on the other hand, as a conscious effort to defend yourself or hurt someone, it seems petty and weak of you.

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## arne saknussemm

Thank you, Onerio and Omega Weapon.   It's nice to know that some people around here have some sense and some decency.

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## ILikeTurtles

> Okay. <stands up and clears throat> At the risk of getting my head bitten off, I'm going to say my piece.
> 
> I think fighting in LDing is pointless, a complete waste of energy.. and to those who say "What about if it's unavoidable?", well.. if you are actually lucid, it's never unavoidable.. you can get out of any dodgy situation IF you are lucid and realise what is happening..
> 
> And as for "torturing in Dreaming" as evinced by some on this thread and also on the "Ways of killing DCs" thread, I think that such people are basically sick and that such behaviour is extremely unhealthy.. they need professional help IMO. Go tell a psychiatrist that you have dreams like that and they'll fill you full of meds and probably label you "psychotic"... and I wouldn't disagree with that diagnosis as far as some on this forum go..
> 
> I also have to say that many of these so-called "lucid" experiences of fighting and torturing that I've read seem nothing like.. I read a lot about dreaming and oh so very little about lucidity. Sounds like "normal" dreaming to me.
> 
> There you go. Now go and bite my head off if you want to.



So I guess most of the teenage population of the world needs to be thrown into a mental institution for playing violent video games, watching violent movies, etc.? By the way, "fighting" doesn't automatically mean "torturing". Maybe if you actually performed some sort of torture, for example: locking someone in an iron maiden and laughing maniacally as they call for help. Now _that_ is sick-minded. However, fighting/killing DC's is in no way psychotic or sick-minded. Hell, I enjoy it and I'm not a violent person in real life at all.

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## Oneironaut Zero

> Thank you, Onerio and Omega Weapon.   It's nice to know that some people around here have some sense and some decency.



If you're going to act as holier-than-thou as you have been, at least be consistent. 

At first you say fighting of any kind is tantamount to torture-fantasy and you (shouldn't touch DC's), but then you commend Omega Weapon when she clearly stated that fighting as a sport in an LD is tremendous. 

Which is it?

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## LimoZeen!

I think I'm done with this topic - it's turned into a flame war.

But I think fighting in dreams is fun as a source of entertainment. It doesn't have to be bloody or torture - just fighting. Some people can bear the gore. That's why horror movies like Sweeney Todd don't completely flop at the box office. I don't care if anyone else is against imaginary fighting as long as they don't try to push it on other people.

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## Oneiro

> So I guess most of the teenage population of the world needs to be thrown into a mental institution for playing violent video games, watching violent movies, etc.? By the way, "fighting" doesn't automatically mean "torturing". Maybe if you actually performed some sort of torture, for example: locking someone in an iron maiden and laughing maniacally as they call for help. Now _that_ is sick-minded. However, fighting/killing DC's is in no way psychotic or sick-minded. Hell, I enjoy it and I'm not a violent person in real life at all.



Good grief. Did you even read my post? I wrote that IMO "fighting in-Dreaming" was pointless and a waste of energy. Nowhere did I imply that I thought that those who practice it were sick and psychotic. 

But as far as "torturing in-Dreaming" goes, that's a different matter IMO, as I previously wrote.

You should really learn to read properly before jumping to false conclusions.

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## Bloody-Mist

Just to get to know your side Arne, why do you consider it torture. No personal stake in this, just curious.

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## Stryk9

the idea of just envisioning your fist making contact instead of limiting it with your mechanical body is great, thanks.  And i completely agree with Oneironaut- obviously violent actions in dreams don't mean or in anyway relate to being violent in real life.  The whole point is that it's a limitless expanse where you can do what you want...I'm a extremely non-violent person, but i'll still drop ninjutsu (think naruto) on DC's , especially if they are the agressors.  The video game metaphor is apt, since Lucid dreaming is in many ways just the ultimate virtual reality game.

Edit: I don't see how fighting in dreams could be not fun...Your're a freaking badd ass fighter of the highest lethality imaginable(necessarily), how is that not fun?

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## arne saknussemm

Let me ask again -- do you torture and kill women and children in your dreams?  Or is it only men?

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