# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity > Wake Initiated Lucid Dreams (WILD) >  >  Why WILD is uncertain method

## Nfri

This picutre should show you why wild is uncertain method.

why no wild.jpg

*note:

WAKE = waking state
HI = hypnagogic imagery ( thief of consciousness, *it is necessary prior* to LS, DS or REM)
LS = light sleep
DS = deep sleep








possibilities are:

1)wake->hi->ls->ds->ls->rem                               = no wild

2)wake->hi->ls->rem                                       = no wild

3)wake->hi->rem                                           = no wild

4)wake->any wild technique->hi->rem              = wild

What I want to say is that WILD is not mainly do the technique correctly but to know how to control or predict this body phases and aim only for wake-any wild technique-hi rem. This is most important in WILD.

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## Goldenspark

Hey Nfri, I have a theory that it's not as simple as that.
My WILDs (mostly supplement assisted, but a few naturally) occur I think by waiting until the brain's chemistry is suited to REM, simply by staying awake.
I tend to wake up at the end of each REM period. All my WILDs have then happened about an hour to 1.5 hours later, simply by waiting until the next REM period comes round.
It suggests that if you just go to sleep and don't intervene, then yes, your diagrams are correct, but you can force yourself to stay awake through the LS and DS periods.
At least that's what it feels liek to me.

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## Nfri

Hi Goldenspark!  :smiley: 




> Hey Nfri, I have a theory that it's not as simple as that.



Sure it's not that simple, I just wanted to simply show my idea why I think wild is not easy.




> I think by waiting until the brain's chemistry is suited to REM, simply by staying awake.
> 
> but you can force yourself to stay awake through the LS and DS periods.



So do you think that lenght of WBTB influence sleep pattern? I don't think that if your body has light sleep on schedule you can wait awake instead of light or deep sleep and then continue REM.

My wilds occur when I wake up from REM and then, after I fall asleep again, my body continues the same phase - REM. This is what is essential for wilding.

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## yaya

That picture actually showed the most important reason why many techniques like WILD, FILD, DEILD and also SSILD fail. In fact , we attempt them maybe at a wrong time which our brain wave is not suitable to have LD. Maybe that's why people who are master in DILD , have always success in LD. Because practicing DILD is not depended on which sleeping state we are while falling sleep.

Thanks!

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## Nfri

> That picture actually showed the most important reason why many techniques like WILD, FILD, DEILD and also SSILD fail. In fact , we attempt them maybe at a wrong time which our brain wave is not suitable to have LD. Maybe that's why people who are master in DILD , have always success in LD. Because practicing DILD is not depended on which sleeping state we are while falling sleep.
> 
> Thanks!



I thank you yaya, you nicely summarized my point  :smiley:

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## Goldenspark

I guess people are all different, but as I understand it, the various sleep states are dominated by hormone balance, where a shift in hormones causes a shift in state, e.g. the drift from nREM into REM.

I find I quite often wake at the end of REM, and my memory of how vivid the dream is is stronger just as I wake. I've not been able to DEILD from this state (I've tried quite a lot). It seems like the REM period is over and I can't get back to it.

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## Nfri

> I find I quite often wake at the end of REM, and my memory of how vivid the dream is is stronger just as I wake. I've not been able to DEILD from this state (I've tried quite a lot). It seems like the REM period is over and I can't get back to it.



Yes, I usually wake up at the end of REM and I'm unable to wild as well. But if I'm accidentally (flatmate, girlfriend or outside noises) woken up in the midle of REM, then it's easy to DEILD or VILD for me.





> the various sleep states are dominated by hormone balance, where a shift in hormones causes a shift in state, e.g. the drift from nREM into REM.



I guess I need to learn more about this stuff.

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## mimihigurashi

*sigh* So ideally, we need to wake up after a dream (REM), and go directly into another REM period? And doesn't deep sleep cease to happen after roughly 4.5 hours of sleep, as shown in charts like this one? If so, what we would need to do is wake up naturally after 4-5 or more hours of sleep, after a dream (in REM), do a WILD technique and pray that REM sleep comes next instead of light sleep, lol. 
Or of course, aim for a REM period and try to wake up right during it. But has this been proven effective? How many people figured the hour they need to wake up at and had a successful WILD? Because I've always only heard minimal discussion of the importance of waking up at the right time, and if it really boosted the chances considerably, I imagine people would talk about it more. Most people only talk about the WILD techniques themselves.

Also, would it be okay to try WILD twice in the same morning, by waking up in one REM period (after 5 hours of sleep), and then if that fails, try the next one (after 6.5 hours)? Would that disturb the body's sleep pattern, or would it ignore the fact that you woke up and continue its usual schedule?

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## Nfri

> And doesn't deep sleep cease to happen after roughly 4.5 hours of sleep, as shown in [URL="http://www.luciddreamexplorers.com/dreamscience/sleep_cycle_REM_8_hour_graph.jpg"]charts like this one[/UR



Hey mimihigurashi, good remarks.

First about those sleep charts - Everyone has different sleep pattern every night. Factors that affect it are for example food, drink, lenght of sleep previous nights, depression, emotion, illness, number of awakening last night, age and so on. If you are healthy and avoiding all substances that affect sleep (caffeine, alcohol...) and you have solid sleep routine, then your sleep patterns are similar, not the same, but similar. I'm in deep sleep phase only in the first 3 hours of sleep usually.

This is why it's complicated to know, when your REM is and when is ideal to wake up for wild and how long to be awake. I don't have recipe for this so far.





> Or of course, aim for a REM period and try to wake up right during it. But has this been proven effective?



I think this is the best way because I had wilds only in this case, so I've got it proven on myself.





> Because I've always only heard minimal discussion of the importance of waking up at the right time, and if it really boosted the chances considerably, I imagine people would talk about it more. Most people only talk about the WILD techniques themselves.



I think that this is why so many people failing at wilds so often. Everybody talks about how you should move your finger or ass or whatever, what you should think and how you should lie and other *crap*. I don't care about this, wild is easy for me under the right conditions - rem-wake-hi-rem. If I'm lucky to have this ''brain chemistry'' I usualy use basic visualization to enter a lucid dream. It's really easy. But if I'm not lucky in the condition, I will never have WILD. If there is light or deep sleep after, I sometimes have DILD but that depends on light sleep a deep sleep phases lenght ahead of REM.






> Also, would it be okay to try WILD twice in the same morning, by waking up in one REM period (after 5 hours of sleep), and then if that fails, try the next one (after 6.5 hours)? Would that disturb the body's sleep pattern, or would it ignore the fact that you woke up and continue its usual schedule?



I wouldn't agree. Yes it would change your sleep pattern, but not disturb. (if you aren't using alarm and wake up naturally)

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## mimihigurashi

> If you are healthy and avoiding all substances that affect sleep (caffeine, alcohol...) and you have solid sleep routine, then your sleep patterns are similar, not the same, but similar. I'm in deep sleep phase only in the first 3 hours of sleep usually.



Is that so? Well, lucky me then, I fit those criteria. So the more routine and normal your life is, the more likely you are to have a normal sleep cycle, makes sense. I did go through my dream journal out of curiousity, I wish I had marked the fall asleep and awake time of more successful WILDs I had in the past, but from the few that I found with time details written, they all coincided with the patterns indicated in the sleep charts, the WILDs were successful roughly after 5 and 6.5 hours of sleep, during the 3rd and 4th REM period. I'm going to start experimenting with this from tomorrow morning on.





> I think that this is why so many people failing at wilds so often. Everybody talks about how you should move your finger or ass or whatever, what you should think and how you should lie and other crap. I don't care about this, wild is easy for me under the right conditions - rem-wake-hi-rem. If I'm lucky to have this ''brain chemistry'' I usualy use basic visualization to enter a lucid dream. It's really easy. But if I'm not lucky in the condition, I will never have WILD. If there is light or deep sleep after, I sometimes have DILD but that depends on light sleep a deep sleep phases lenght ahead of REM.



Amen to that. I'm definitely no expert but I think it makes a lot of sense that the time at which you attempt WILD is the most important, the technique is secondary. There's a thread that's been going on for a while now called "Testing SSILD for a month" or something, and now I wonder how many of those people are actually waking up at the right time. It's possible that a large chunk is waking up in light sleep, attempts SSILD, it fails because REM is not next on the list, and blame the failure on something else, even SSILD itself.

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## ThreeCat

I wonder what some of our proficient WILDers would think about this (sivason, Sageous, anotherdreamer--if I left you out, no offense).  "Waiting around" for another REM period seems suspect to me, though Daniel Love recommends this in his book.  I am guessing it is really a matter of attention.  If you are sble to maintain focus throughout yhe transition, shouldn't be a big deal.  Also, isnt the NREM barrier super thin in the morning?  Almost all of my WILDs have occurred early/late morning, with an almost automatic drop into REM.

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## Nfri

one does not simply rem.jpg

Hello fellow milder ThreeCat!





> Also, isnt the NREM barrier super thin in the morning?



My morning NREM barriers (like the name btw) after WBTB are usually light sleep phases for ~20 minutes. This isn't thin for WILDing.





> Almost all of my WILDs have occurred early/late morning, with an almost automatic drop into REM.



Yes, that's what I'm talking about - these are the ''lucky cases'' of (REM)->AWAKE->HH->REM

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## mimihigurashi

Gonna use one of those Android apps to try to pinpoint my REM periods. And maybe have an auto-dismiss alarm go off during the 3rd or 4th. Hope it's gonna work..

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## ThreeCat

> one does not simply rem.jpg
> 
> Hello fellow milder ThreeCat!
> 
> 
> 
> My morning NREM barriers (like the name btw) after WBTB are usually light sleep phases for ~20 minutes. This isn't thin for WILDing.
> 
> 
> ...



For whatever reason, my barrier is almost non-existent.  I usually begin experiencing very vivid dreamlets upon falling asleep, that then solidify into dreams.  How do you know your barrier is 20 minutes, btw?

Also, please tell me you made that meme.  If not . . . ::wtf::

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## Sageous

I think you might be making this problem far more complicated than it really is, Nfri

First:  Your "wake->any wild technique->hi->rem = wild" formula sounds a lot like a DEILD, which in my opinion also is the best, and easiest, form of WILD -- as long as you are able to recognize your exit from the last dream and dive back in before you wake up, of course.  In a sense, doing a DEILD is the solution to your entire problem, so you could have left it there... But DEILD's can be tricky, are often serendipitous, and work best when exiting a LD, so "classic" WILD might be necessary, so: 

Yes, WILD's tend to most likely occur at fairly specific periods during your sleep cycle, but it is not all that hard to find your personal sweet spot for when to do WBTB, and how long that WBTB ought to last, both to easily catch that next REM period and to be sure your head is still in a dreamy state when you lie down to WILD.  A little trial-and-error experimentation will probably get you to your specific best time to WILD reasonably soon -- and I would highly recommend starting that experimentation after a minimum of 5 hours of sleep when, all charts aside, _most_ people's REM periods tend to be very close together, with minimal NREM "barrier" time.  

And yes, Nfri, some of us do say things about timing:  If you look at my DVA WILD class, you'll see that its second session is dedicated to timing.  I -- and a few others, I've noticed -- have also been mentioning the importance of timing, and finding your own optimum timing, whenever it fits into a conversation.  So some of us do understand the importance of timing, and are making an effort to avoid the "lie down and hold still" crap, and some of us do understand that a WILD transition is more about getting your head in the right place at the right time than it is about wiggling your finger or whatever other techniques are being invented these days. So I understand where you're coming from, but I hope that you understand that there are people who understand and try to share the importance of timing; you are not alone in this.  

Speaking of crap:  As a sort of side note, I'm not quite sure why you are including HI in your formula.  Yes, HI can happen, but it also doesn't need to be there for a WILD to succeed. HI is not necessary and certainly not crucial to succeeding at a WILD dive.  Looking for or, worse, waiting for HI that might not come can be a real distraction for some, and might not be the best thing to include in your plan.  Be prepared for HI (preferably prepared to ignore it), but I suggest you do not make it too important.

*tl;dr:* Yes, timing matters in WILD, but you can find your WILD sweet spot and optimal WBTB time with a little experimentation. Yes, though sleep cycles can vary, _most_ people seem to be amenable to WILD after about 5 hours of sleep, so that is where your quest for perfect timing should begin.  So yes, timing is an important facet to successful WILDing, maybe the most important, but your personal sleep schedule can be learned fairly quickly, if you are willing to fail at a few WILD attempts while you look for your best moment to dive.

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## Goldenspark

> I wonder what some of our proficient WILDers would think about this (sivason, Sageous, anotherdreamer--if I left you out, no offense).  "Waiting around" for another REM period seems suspect to me, though Daniel Love recommends this in his book.  I am guessing it is really a matter of attention.  If you are sble to maintain focus throughout yhe transition, shouldn't be a big deal.  Also, isnt the NREM barrier super thin in the morning?  Almost all of my WILDs have occurred early/late morning, with an almost automatic drop into REM.



Hi ThreeCat, the waiting around thing may just be me. It's possible that I am just not accomplished enough to drop back into REM after an awakening at the end of, or during, a REM episode.
I have been trying to lie still on waking to go back in, but I find that really hard!

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## ThreeCat

Check out Sageous's class.  I think many if us, after we've fully awakened from REM, are SOL concerning WILD.  Better (like Sageous says above) to find that moment if awareness _directly_ after awakening, when we're still in hypnopompic, and DEILD from there.

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## Nfri

> I think you might be making this problem far more complicated than it really is, Nfri
> If you look at my DVA WILD class, you'll see that its second session is dedicated to timing.



Hi Sageous, thanks for your remarks and I'm glad that you (as one of the few) highlights the importance of timing in your DVA WILD class second session.

If the timing wouln't be so complicated for me then I believe I would have WILD every night.





> First: Your "wake->any wild technique->hi->rem = wild" formula sounds a lot like a DEILD



I'm not talking about DEILD. (I like deild, I tend to use it after each ld and agree that it's the easiest method if you have some rem juice left). What I meant is classic WILD, in my case VILD induction.





> but it is not all that hard to find your personal sweet spot for when to do WBTB, and how long that WBTB ought to last, both to easily catch that next REM period and to be sure your head is still in a dreamy state when you lie down to WILD.



This is it!!! I think this is the most important step in wilding. For me it's really hard to find my personal sweet dreamy state. I think this spot is every night in another time as I said above. The inducion itself is the easy part for me, but to find this spot is really difficult. And I think for most people as well and makes WILDing so unrealiable.






> Speaking of crap: As a sort of side note, I'm not quite sure why you are including HI in your formula. Yes, HI can happen, but it also doesn't need to be there for a WILD to succeed. HI is not necessary and certainly not crucial to succeeding at a WILD dive.



I claim that Hypnagogic Imagination (not some color halucinations, but this not controlled spontaneous imagination which tries to steal your consiousnes) is need every time prior light,deep or rem sleep. If it there is no HI, there is simply no sleep. Without this phase you just couldn't fall asleep. It doesn't matter if you remember it or not. It's always there. Many wild techniques are based how to control this imagination or observe or simply ignore it, whatever works.





> and think dreamy thoughts for a while before going back to bed and starting up a WILD. There’s really no more to it.



Do you think that dreamy thoughts could summon REM phase? What works for me is caffeine for example. It destroys NREM bariers effectively. But there is a chance that you won't fall asleep if you have bad timing.

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## Sageous

> Do you think that dreamy thoughts could summon REM phase? What works for me is caffeine for example. It destroys NREM bariers effectively. But there is a chance that you won't fall asleep if you have bad timing.



No, dreamy thoughts only keep you in the right state of mind during WBTB.  I'm not sure anything can "summon" REM; your REM periods will come as scheduled according to your sleep cycle that night (which is why it is best to do WILD after several hours of sleep, so you don't have to worry so much about catching -- or summoning -- the next REM period).  

I've never heard of caffiene inducing REM, but if that works for you, then keep it up!  

That said,  I must admit that I am not very concerned about this REM barrier, aka NREM or Delta sleep. I find lucid time in NREM very relaxing and, at worst, it amounts to little more than a brief, quiet pause while waiting for the dream to begin.  So a moment or two of NREM during a WILD dive doesn't seem to be that much of a barrier to me.

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## Sivason

Exploring nREM can be a good hobby in and of itself.

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## Nfri

> That said,  I must admit that I am not very concerned about this REM barrier, aka NREM or Delta sleep. I find lucid time in NREM very relaxing and, at worst, it amounts to little more than a brief, quiet pause while waiting for the dream to begin.  So a moment or two of NREM during a WILD dive doesn't seem to be that much of a barrier to me.







> Exploring nREM can be a good hobby in and of itself.



I'm glad that you said this guys. Do you see the catch? Some people like you have the ability to stay aware during NREM barriers - light sleep mostly. For wild expert like you, there isn't much a problem to be lucid in NREM barriers. For wild noobs like me it is almost impossible to stay awake during this phase. I fall asleep (lose awareness) or stay awake.

So basicaly I'm saying that if you not an expert in wild, or budhist monk or profound meditator or I don't know what else, staying lucid during NREM barriers is not attainable for lucid dreamers like myself.

These are levels of WILD according to difficulty from the easiest (not full list):

1. remLUCID-AWAKEorNOT-DEILD-remLUCID

2. AWAKE-anyWILDtechnique-REM = this is what I'm capable of and I think there is lots of oneironauts who rarely hit this lucky condition and succeed in WILD

3. AWAKE-anyWILDtechnique-LUCIDlightsleep-LUCIDrem = this is like to want from someone to draw beautiful picture when he's can't draw a circle for example

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## Sageous

Okay, Nfri.  This is your thread and, even though I make a real effort to pay attention to the difficulties of novices, and certainly still remember the ones I endured, I suppose I could be underestimating or simply choosing to ignore this REM barrier.  So, aside from one last point (in a sec), I'll concede, and step back so you can build this thread as you see fit. The only functional recommendation I can add is what I've already said: do your WILD after 5 hours of sleep, and experiment until you find your personal sweet-spot of closely-spaced REM periods, and this barrier will not be a problem. The only other disagreement I will offer is that I have seen _many_ novices become lucid through that REM barrier without issue or real problem; I really do not think that you must have guru-level skills in order to negotiate a few minutes of darkness waiting for the dream to form. But I suppose I could be wrong, and those novices were just lucky.

That said, I have but one warning:  What you are doing here is arguing for a limitation.  You are saying that there is a barrier that is not only difficult to overcome, but perhaps _impossible_ for a novice LD'er to get through.  I've never found this to be a good idea.  Sure, there is a REM barrier if that's what you want to call NREM, but it is _very easily_ overcome if you are mentally prepared and positive, _regardless of your experience_:  if you are unable to hold your focus through NREM and fall asleep, but you are mentally prepared to LD, you will very likely find yourself in a DILD, or perhaps a recognizable false awakening. But you will _only_ emerge into a DILD if you go to sleep with a positive, confident attitude; fall asleep sure that there is something that will stop you, and you will _surely_ be stopped.  Remember that a _successful LD_ ought to be the goal, and how you get there ought to be secondary; there is nothing wrong or inferior with becoming lucid through DILD, so if that barrier is too much for a novice, perhaps she should consider DILD until she is more experienced.

Successful LD'ing is in itself breaking a very powerful barrier, namely the one that says you are not supposed to be awake while you are asleep.  To add even more barriers to that very large one is not a good idea, in my opinion.

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## NyxCC

Nfri

For the most part I agree with what has been said by Sageous, and my personal experience when trying to ld is that the NREM barrier is much shorter and lighter after a few hours of sleep. In addition, I want to remind you about another benefit of wbtb that hasn't been mentioned so far in the discussion, which is that a wbtb may result in significant REM rebound, so this can lead to NREM of perhaps just couple of seconds which is perceived as immediate REM on our part and is quite convenient for wilding.

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## MisakaMikoto

> I'm glad that you said this guys. Do you see the catch? Some people like you have the ability to stay aware during NREM barriers - light sleep mostly. For wild expert like you, there isn't much a problem to be lucid in NREM barriers. For wild noobs like me it is almost impossible to stay awake during this phase. I fall asleep (lose awareness) or stay awake.
> 
> So basicaly I'm saying that if you not an expert in wild, or budhist monk or profound meditator or I don't know what else, staying lucid during NREM barriers is not attainable for lucid dreamers like myself.
> 
> These are levels of WILD according to difficulty from the easiest (not full list):
> 
> 1. remLUCID-AWAKEorNOT-DEILD-remLUCID
> 
> 2. AWAKE-anyWILDtechnique-REM = this is what I'm capable of and I think there is lots of oneironauts who rarely hit this lucky condition and succeed in WILD
> ...



Hi,

I belive i might have in past accidently stayed conscious in NREM due to 'Prospective Memory' or unintentional MILD Practice.

I guess it happend due to long falling asleep mixed with repetitive counting. Counting for more than thirty-minutes resulted in solidifying my intention to keep on counting.
And after that long time i had moments when i suddenly lose consciousness and due to that stopped to count. After few seconds or maybe even minutes i've regained consciousness by suddenly getting some kind of reminder from brain? That i stopped counting and i need to start counting again.

My theory might be correct or it might be just coincidence.
I belive it might be correct since i had same sensation with MILD Tech some time ago
I had intention set to reality check every 15 minutes and i've repeated words 'I'il remember to do reality check every 15 minutes' and then i fell asleep.
As the time of around 15 minutes passed in dream world i've gotten that sudden shock reminder about reality checking and so i decided to do rc in dream and yet it failed due to me thinking that i can breathe thru nose due to having some wound  ::-P: 

Maybe Prospective Memory/MILD could do a job as an anchor in WILDs finely on it's own?
It's just a little theory of mine tho  ::tongue:: 

*Edit:*

This article is also interesting about 'Prospective Memory':
http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.c...ve-memory.html

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## FryingMan

> Successful LD'ing is in itself breaking a very powerful barrier, namely the one that says you are not supposed to be awake while you are asleep. To add even more barriers to that very large one is not a good idea, in my opinion.



This!   
Lucid dreaming requires that multiple things coincide: sleep, sleep cycle phase, intent, memory, self-awareness, attitude, being sufficiently rested.   That's quite enough of a barrier.   Lucid dreaming is uncertain under any circumstances because getting all these things to align on any sort of a regular basis takes monumental effort, determination, patience, and practice.   I don't see a need to make a special case for WILD.

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## cmind

> I wonder what some of our proficient WILDers would think about this (sivason, Sageous, anotherdreamer--if I left you out, no offense).  "Waiting around" for another REM period seems suspect to me, though Daniel Love recommends this in his book.  I am guessing it is really a matter of attention.  If you are sble to maintain focus throughout yhe transition, shouldn't be a big deal.  Also, isnt the NREM barrier super thin in the morning?  Almost all of my WILDs have occurred early/late morning, with an almost automatic drop into REM.



Whatever problems someone might have getting past the NREM barrier in WILD are miniscule in comparison to the problems inherent to DILD.

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## ThreeCat

> Whatever problems someone might have getting past the NREM barrier in WILD are miniscule in comparison to the problems inherent to DILD.



Then why are DILDs more common?

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## cmind

> Then why are DILDs more common?



I doubt _successful_ DILDs are more common. But why do more people try to DILD than WILD? A few reasons:

1) The way lucid dreaming is usually described in common parlance is actually a DILD. "Realize that you're dreaming while you're in a dream". This is precisely what a DILD is, and most people aren't even aware that there's this whole other set of techniques called WILD that operate on a fundamentally different principle.

2) For those who know about WILD, it sounds scarier. It's true, the transition between wake and sleep can be compared to a very intense drug experience. However, it's usually very short and it's not scary while you're actually doing it. Furthermore, people may associate WILD with sleep paralysis, which is a common myth but is incorrect. 

3) People who are interested in lucid dreaming might find the whole "all day awareness" thing with DILD to be more aesthetically pleasing. It's more "spiritual" or some bullshit.

Now, why is WILD superior?

1) You're starting from a position of strength; of full awareness. DILD requires you to start from a position of weakness, when you're totally non-lucid, and then somehow become lucid. This is exactly akin to a schizophrenic person curing themselves of their delusions without any outside help. It's a big feat, but not attainable by most people.

2) WILD does not require any daytime activities. None of this "reality checking" silliness that DILD people like to make themselves do.

3) If you want to chain lucid dreams, you're going to have to WILD anyway. So might as well just WILD to begin with.

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## ThreeCat

Whoa.  I disagree on multiple levels.  Most if the proficient dreamers on here practice daytime awareness techniques, WILDers or not.  Also, how the hell is ADA spiritual?  But I think in general the reality does not support your argument: most lucid dreamers have more DILDs than WILDs.  If I am wrong about this, then I will say I am always willing to learn more.

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## FryingMan

You're obviously very opinionated about this, cmind, and write from the perspective of "having it all figured out," but keep in mind that just because you've come up with a mindset or explanation that makes sense to you, doesn't mean that it's "truth," or that it applies to everybody (or anybody).   I think you have acquired a number of misconceptions along the way.

One could very well state that DILD is approaching LDing from a position of strength compared to WILD, considering *you're already asleep and dreaming* when you DILD, and that WILDs  (traditional full WILDs, not DEILDs) are "weak" because you're missing the element of sleep  and dreams entirely.

That would not be an entirely accurate statement, either, though.   Because lucidity requires that multiple things all come together, namely, sleep and self-awareness.   Whether one starts from dreaming sleep and leverages awareness into a DILD, or whether one starts from self-aware waking consciousness and attempts to add the element of sleep and dreaming, you always, unavoidably, must incorporate the other (along with all the secondary but important points like intention, expectation, etc.).

Now before you say "it's clearly superior to start from waking self-awareness and add sleep and dreaming" to reach a LD, remember that you can only ever speak about yourself.   Some people seem to have a knack for (full) WILDs, and some have more success with DILDs.

I think it's interesting to note that even experienced LDers (anecdotally, I have not done a formal study) do in fact seem able to DILD at much higher frequency than they WILD.

Point by point:





> 1) The way lucid dreaming is usually described in common parlance is actually a DILD. "Realize that you're dreaming while you're in a dream". This is precisely what a DILD is, and most people aren't even aware that there's this whole other set of techniques called WILD that operate on a fundamentally different principle.



I knew about both from the beginning.   I think most who seriously study LDing, who search out and discover quality resources know about both from the start.  In fact, I would say that more casual LD attempters know more about WILD because they hear about this "miraculous" way to have "LDs on demand," and they think the term "WILD" is "cool."   Just look at all the beginners (wasting their time IMO) on reddit trying to get FILD to work and get upset that it doesn't work within 1 or 2 days.  (I don't think their wasting their time because "FILD sucks" or anything, but because they have not done enough research into LD practice and are missing the fundamentals).





> 2) For those who know about WILD, it sounds scarier. It's true, the transition between wake and sleep can be compared to a very intense drug experience. However, it's usually very short and it's not scary while you're actually doing it. Furthermore, people may associate WILD with sleep paralysis, which is a common myth but is incorrect.



I did serious background reading and never once held this point of view (that it's scary).





> 3) People who are interested in lucid dreaming might find the whole "all day awareness" thing with DILD to be more aesthetically pleasing. It's more "spiritual" or some bullshit.



This is a rather condescending and immature attitude.  You don't "get it" personally so you think it's BS.





> 1) You're starting from a position of strength; of full awareness. DILD requires you to start from a position of weakness, when you're totally non-lucid, and then somehow become lucid. This is exactly akin to a schizophrenic person curing themselves of their delusions without any outside help. It's a big feat, but not attainable by most people.



I've already addressed the the "position of strength" fallacy.  Your schizophrenia analogy also does not hold water.  Lucidity results from the combination of conditions (sleep, sleep cycle phase, being well-rested) and personal qualities (self-awareness, memory, intention, expectation) and having good/great dream recall.   Being conscious and aware in a dream regardless of initiation method in itself is an unnatural act, which is why for the majority of non-naturals (either DILD or WILD practitioners) it takes determined effort and time to develop these qualities and to learn to take advantage of timing.   The fact is that the truly expert LD practitioner uses *all* tools at his/her disposal, and learns to adapt the method to the conditions of the moment to maximize LD possibility.





> 2) WILD does not require any daytime activities. None of this "reality checking" silliness that DILD people like to make themselves do.



That's not true.  Successful WILDs benefit from strong self-awareness, intention and expectation, which you work on during the day.  I'm quoting Sageous on this and given his background I think I'll side with him on this one.    And saying "RCs" are "silly" and unnecessary makes you just sound sort of crazy on this forum.





> 3) If you want to chain lucid dreams, you're going to have to WILD anyway. So might as well just WILD to begin with.



DEILD is quite a different beast from full WILD.   And don't forget the easiest way to DEiLD is to exit from a lucid dream, regardless of how you started the LD.  So, you could just as well write "might as well learn to DILD in order to chain lucid dreams."

In summary, it's pretty inaccurate to claim one approach is the only way to the exclusion of all others.   Each approach has their advantages and disadvantages, and the expert LD practitioner learns them all and understands when to apply them.

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## ThreeCat

Just adding that most people, without daytime practices, are not going to be able to pull off a WILD due to lack of a tamed mind.

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## fogelbise

Some great responses to cmind while I was preparing mine...





> I doubt _successful_ DILDs are more common.



cmind, I have read other posts by you in the past that I agree with (Correction: I was thinking of a different DV member) but I can't agree here, though I doubt either of us have any statistics to back up our viewpoint. Just browsing these forums and the DJ's seem to point to successful DILDs being more common. I have used both but definitely have more DILDs, with the DEILD variety of WILDs being my next most common, then straight WILDs last. When I was focused on DEILDs I could chain them together fairly frequently, but then comes the question of whether that was really multiple DEILDs or simply in-dream transitions.





> But why do more people try to DILD than WILD? A few reasons:
> 
> 1) The way lucid dreaming is usually described in common parlance is actually a DILD. "Realize that you're dreaming while you're in a dream". This is precisely what a DILD is, and most people aren't even aware that there's this whole other set of techniques called WILD that operate on a fundamentally different principle.



I think most anyone on DV that is motivated enough to read even a little through these forms has heard of WILDs. Those that are quickly passing through are hardly part of the significant sampling of lucid dreaming reports I have read about on here.





> 2) For those who know about WILD, it sounds scarier. It's true, the transition between wake and sleep can be compared to a very intense drug experience. However, it's usually very short and it's not scary while you're actually doing it. Furthermore, people may associate WILD with sleep paralysis, which is a common myth but is incorrect.



I agree...this is an unfortunate misconception for some, though you may get more scary experiences if that is what you are watching out for or worried about.





> 3) People who are interested in lucid dreaming might find the whole "all day awareness" thing with DILD to be more aesthetically pleasing. It's more "spiritual" or some bullshit.



This "bullsh*t" label is what convinced me to reply. Though I do not practice "all day awareness" I do feel that there is much value to being more aware throughout the day. Do you think the average person finds it more pleasing to be on autopilot? Through daytime practices and lucid dream experiences, I find more enjoyment in the little things that I used to look past. Not necessarily "spiritual" but none-the-less valuable to me.

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## Nfri

Guys, stay to the topic please! The topic is : *Wild is difficult induction technique for wild beginners due to REM barriers (NREM phases - mostly light sleep) after WBTB.*

Sageous and Sivason said they are able to stay ''lucid'' during these REM barriers. I'm not able to... Few times, I manage to stay lucid during light sleep after ending of lucid dream. Like you Sageous said: just wait in the dark for another dream. I experienced that, but only after a lucid dream. I was in the dark, no images and no feeling of your real body at all, just pure lucidity of consciousness. Few minutes later a new dream emerged and I deilded.

This lucid state during light sleep is really great stuff and I would like to learn that, so my question is: *How can I stay lucid during REM barriers?* Is there any solid recipe? If my goal is just to learn stay lucid during light sleep phases after wbtb or just at the beginning of the night? With no regards to lucid dreaming in the rem stage... Are you capable of this someone? This ability would prove my progress immensely.

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## NyxCC

You might have missed my comment that wbtb, especially a longer one might lead to greater REM rebound, that means that the NREM phase will be shorter.

Other than that, I am not sure what your way of wilding is, but this is how it goes for me. Wbtb, mantras, then decide it's time to sleep. I begin to focus on relaxing. My anchor is mostly my body, I start relaxing my body and generally feel my body, not too harsh of a concentration. I don't think about wilding (but know I want have an ld), just focus on how great and nice it feels to be falling asleep or just to be relaxing. This is especially effective for me, since it deals with all sorts of negative stuff, like "nothing is happening, I can't fall asleep, etc.". After a while there are usually two possibilities - one: if my rem is near and with strong rebound, then I am literally overcome with a super bright strong dream scene that emerges in front of me. Since I have been relaxing, I may or may not feel my body, it may be that what I feel now is my dream body immediately appearing in the dream. That's the perfect case, which I wish could happen more often and to all, but it it doesn't always. 

Case two - I am in the darkness and just keep relaxing, i.e. focused on my bodily anchor, so it doesn't matter if the dream is here or not, I'm just waiting for it. After a bit, the scene may begin to build around me so I find myself in the dream. (Stating there are only two cases is a bit of simplification, as all the transitions are kind of unique, sometimes I have used just looking at the darkness as an anchor, other times my breath or even pulse, also see below)

I have to say, my method is much more passive most of the time, but there are variations, where you can try to call the dream. You can try looking in the darkess and start to distinguish that the dots or lines are actually part of objects and then focus on those. You can try visualizing a place or focusing on a feeling of movement, you running, swimming, etc. That way, you can also keep your mind active so you won't lose lucidity and black out.

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## ThreeCat

Thanks Nyx, that was super helpful.  I was actually thinking of trying to WILD more, and you put clearly into words a technique that sounds like it might work.  I'm not a mantra person  :smiley:

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## Sageous

> Sageous and Sivason said they are able to stay ''lucid'' during these REM barriers. I'm not able to... Few times, I manage to stay lucid during light sleep after ending of lucid dream. Like you Sageous said: just wait in the dark for another dream. I experienced that, but only after a lucid dream. I was in the dark, no images and no feeling of your real body at all, *just pure lucidity of consciousness. Few minutes later a new dream emerged and I deilded*.



  Wait a second... doesn't that mean that you actually _succeeded_ in "waiting for another dream?" Yes, you were coming from another LD, and not from the beginning of a WILD, but the experience is still about the same.  





> This lucid state during light sleep is really great stuff and I would like to learn that, so my question is: *How can I stay lucid during REM barriers?* Is there any solid recipe? With no regards to lucid dreaming in the rem stage... Are you capable of this someone? This ability would prove my progress immensely.



Maintaining self-awareness is just hard enough to be universally unpopular, so finding specific techniques or methods, much less that solid recipe that works for you, might be a bit of a chore.  But there are a handful of people who can do it, so hopefully you'll get some responses that are a bit less vague than mine. 

In the meantime, since this practice is essentially the same as sleep yoga, you might start by researching that, and its little brother, dream yoga.  What I've said about it mostly appears in my Exploring Delta Sleep thread, though I'm pretty sure it runs a little light on specific technique. 





> If my goal is just to learn stay lucid during light sleep phases after wbtb or just at the beginning of the night?



  I would steer clear of trying to stay lucid at the beginning of the night for a while.  Or, rather, steer clear of expecting to actually maintain self-awareness through those first very long NREM periods for a while -- it can certainly be good practice to _try_ to do so.  But yes, those very brief periods of NREM that you'll encounter attempting WILDs after several hours of sleep and a WBTB should be easily navigated after you gain some experience.

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## Nfri

> Wait a second... doesn't that mean that you actually _succeeded_ in "waiting for another dream?" Yes, you were coming from another LD, and not from the beginning of a WILD, but the experience is still about the same.



Yeah, it does. I'm lucky that I've been there few times already, so I know what is my goal and that it's real and obtainable. The thing is that I don't know how to get there at the begining of the night or after wbtb. I think the experience is still about the same as well... So I'm looking for someone who is able to be lucid during these rem barriers... And hopefully learn it from them.





> it can certainly be good practice to try to do so. But yes, those very brief periods of NREM that you'll encounter attempting WILDs after several hours of sleep and a WBTB should be easily navigated after you gain some experience.



 :Nod yes:

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## FryingMan

Well, personally, I'm in the same boat as Nfri.  I do not recall ever entering a dream from 100% awake WBTB-time with full consciousness the entire time and with no discontinuities.  DEILDs yes, full-from-WBTB WILDs with absolutely no discontinuities, no.   I assume it's just a matter of patience and practice and trying a lot.   Or maybe I'm making too much out of the discontinuities and everybody experiences them in "full WILD?"   I'm assuming my "awake awareness" is just too strong and I haven't found the balance yet.

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## Nfri

> especially a longer one might lead to greater REM rebound, that means that the NREM phase will be shorter.



I did numerous attempts with lenght of wbtb and I agree as you say Nyx, it is possible that longer wbtb = shorter REM barrier. 2 hours wbtb is effective for me and yeah it may be thanks to REM rebound... I need to try and measure this.





> I am not sure what your way of wilding is



My wilds are usually the same. While I'm falling asleep, third eye's imagination spontaneously appears and tries to steal my awareness. I try to stay aware - try to hold thought on my mind: *this is just my imagination.* If the REM is close with no barriers, it just hit and the imagination become dream and I'm in it with my thought that it's not real = I'm dreaming.





> My anchor is mostly my body



 I don't understand, please explain this...





> if my rem is near and with strong rebound, then I am literally overcome with a super bright strong dream scene that emerges in front of me.



This is what I've tried to explain in OP picture.  :smiley: 





> I assume it's just a matter of patience and practice and trying a lot.   Or maybe I'm making too much out of the discontinuities and everybody experiences them in "full WILD?"   I'm assuming my "awake awareness" is just too strong and I haven't found the balance yet.



Or it's a matter of REM barriers!  :smiley:

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## Sageous

> Well, personally, I'm in the same boat as Nfri. I do not recall ever entering a dream from 100% awake WBTB-time with full consciousness the entire time and with no discontinuities. DEILDs yes, full-from-WBTB WILDs with absolutely no discontinuities, no. I assume it's just a matter of patience and practice and trying a lot. Or maybe I'm making too much out of the discontinuities and everybody experiences them in "full WILD?" I'm assuming my "awake awareness" is just too strong and I haven't found the balance yet.



^^ I would bet,* FryingMan*, that a fairly high proportion of reported WILD's are actually DILD's, because dreamers dozed off somewhere during the process.  Just read the accounts, and note how often the process moves from actively reporting sensations to "suddenly I was in the dream," which is a telltale sign of loss of awareness.  You're just an exception, FryingMan, because you are honest with yourself about it, and notice the WILD transition never really happened.   But who cares if it wasn't a WILD?  If the WILD failed but a DILD occurred, then the prep you did for the WILD was enough to lead you to lucidity, and past that REM barrier one way or another.  Does it really matter how you get to the dream, in the end? I never thought so.

Perhaps Nfri's REM barrier is responsible for more than just difficult WILD's, but for the evolution of a modified version of DILD where you go through all the prep and process for a WILD, but fall asleep anyway, _yet still successfully become lucid_.  A semi-WILD, maybe, or para-DILD?  

Hmm. This could be a quiet new technique that has emerged unwittingly among WILDer's, one that might prove useful:  Dreamers attempting WILD's could actually build the possibility of accidental sleep into their WILD plan, but with that sleep seen as contingency, and not failure.  In other words,  keeping their minds ready for a dream whether they fall asleep or not.  That way they are ready for the DILD, probably resulting in more LD's, less wake-ups, and a whole lot fewer FA's.  And perfecting the technique might amount to little more than simply being honest with yourself, as you were, FryingMan.

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## FryingMan

^^ I agree, Sageous, it really doesn't matter what the label is.  But I *am* curious to experience the whole thing consciously!   And, the TTWBGSODDILD (Tried To WILD But Got Start-Of-Dream DILD) is not always guaranteed.   Sometimes the result is insomnia, sometimes non-lucid dreaming, and sometimes that in-between state (maybe this is the Nfri REM barrier?) where I feel like I've fallen asleep, felt the sensations, I feel "different" in my brain, sort of a "lucid" feeling, yet there is no dream there, which (always for me) ends  in full wakefulness and lost sleep and no LD (at that time).





> Hmm. This could be a quiet new technique that has emerged unwittingly among WILDer's, one that might prove useful: Dreamers attempting WILD's could actually build the possibility of accidental sleep into their WILD plan, but with that sleep seen as contingency, and not failure. In other words, keeping their minds ready for a dream whether they fall asleep or not. That way they are ready for the DILD, probably resulting in more LD's, less wake-ups, and a whole lot fewer FA's. And perfecting the technique might amount to little more than simply being honest with yourself, as you were, FryingMan.



Well this has happened some number of times.   Tried to WILD, and ended up with a start-of-dream DILD where my awareness kicks in just as the dream image is forming or just thereafter.  We could call it the FMWASODD (FryingMan's WILD attempt Start-of-dream-DILD) or something  :smiley:

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## Nfri

> Perhaps Nfri's REM barrier is responsible for more than just difficult WILD's, but for the evolution of a modified version of DILD where you go through all the prep and process for a WILD, but fall asleep anyway, _yet still successfully become lucid_.  A semi-WILD, maybe, or para-DILD?



I know what you are talking about, I had about ten of these... I call them quick DILD. The gap might be short, but it's obvious.

You know I think that REM barriers influence both wild and dild. That's why is so hard to have DILD after first or early thick REM barriers.

As you said Sageous, it doesn't matter if it was a wild or a dild but wheter you achieved lucidity. And I think REM barriers matters a lot in achieving lucidity.





> (maybe this is the Nfri REM barrier?)



No, by REM barrier I mean fall to unconscious sleep with no memories from nor dreams in this phase.

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## NyxCC

> My anchor is mostly my body







> I don't understand, please explain this...



Well, I just focus on my body. There is no strict way to do it, sometimes I like to focus on the sensation of my body touching the bed or just the way my entire body and its contours feel. I actually just wrote a mini paragraph describing how the whole process feels, but realized that it is unnecessary and irrelavant. While a change in sensations may be a clue as to where exactly one is (bed vs asleep), my approach is not to track the progress on the way, but just to _keep focusing until the dream forms around me_, flashes into my face or whatever it is that should happen during that particular attempt. 

Again, you can use pretty much anything as your anchor - your entire body, a specific part (you can try some of the chakra points as points for focus, especially the third eye point, the area below the navel, or the navel itself (not a chakra but still a good point of focus) or the one on top of your head), also the back of your head, you can focus on your breath or on your heartbeat, etc.





> My wilds are usually the same. While I'm falling asleep, third eye's imagination spontaneously appears and tries to steal my awareness. I try to stay aware - try to hold thought on my mind: this is just my imagination. If the REM is close with no barriers, it just hit and the imagination become dream and I'm in it with my thought that it's not real = I'm dreaming.



With imagination, I take it to mean more like visual scenes and perhaps you hear part of that dream's story? That's not so bad then. You can try repeating a mantra while watching the scene to keep some awareness while the scene perhaps starts to take over since you are already falling asleep, if your problem is that it steals your awareness. Or you could try to focus on a particular place in the scene, zoom in there or imagine yourself acting in it. That way you assume a certain degree of control over the dream and retain your awareness. 

At any rate, keep experimenting and sooner or later things will click. Don't forget to keep us posted.  :smiley:

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## 2Jupes

Hi guys, I've been trying to WILD every night for about a month unsuccessfully with some close calls. With respect to timing, when I began dream journaling, I discovered that I was logging some of my most vivid dreams five minutes after my first sleep. This lead me to question whether I had a sleep disorder like narcolepsy and I thought it might explain the intense hypnogogic imagery I experienced at bedtime my entire life, something I worried was some mental disorder until I learned about lucid dreaming. 

I'm reading here now that hypnogogia can occur during light sleep onset regardless of REM proximity. But the fact that I'm dreaming so early makes me suspect actual REM is happening. Am I wasting WILD attempts at this time, or have you heard of REM happening this way?

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## Nfri

> I discovered that I was logging some of my most vivid dreams five minutes after my first sleep. 
> 
> I'm reading here now that hypnogogia can occur during light sleep onset regardless of REM proximity. But the fact that I'm dreaming so early makes me suspect actual REM is happening. Am I wasting WILD attempts at this time, or have you heard of REM happening this way?



I experience this every time I'm falling asleep. It seems like actual dreams without vividness. In this thread http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...in-method.html I maybe wrongly named it Hypnagogic Imagery HI. Sageous, this explain why you said that it's irrelevant to wait for HI. I didn't mean HI but this state that you elegantly called dreamlets.  I think this is REM like state which purpose is to steal your consciousness and make you fall asleep. Last night I tried to focus and be lucid in these dreamlets but it let to wake me up few minutes later. It's exciting that I'm able to measure these dreamlets by EEG ZEO device. This is picture shows entering these dreamlets and exiting them. It's from experimentation last night on the beginning of sleep.

zeo dreamlets.png

Why are dreamlets ilustrated  as REM? I think because they are very similar to REM in the brain activity.

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## 2Jupes

That monitoring tool is amazing. I'm saving for the next one that gets good reviews now that yours is out of business. Those dreamlets you recorded are really interesting. I woke up at 3am today, was sure I had been in deep sleep, and decided to test that delay theory, waiting 45 minutes for REM to potentially come around while I read a bit, then worked on a mantra. 

I fell asleep trying to WILD with no sensations or HI, but I did manage to incubate lucid intent and had my first brief DILD after a frustrating two-week dry spell. I had discovered my wife dead after a car accident and performed a successful reality check based upon my strong emotional response but woke from the intensity of the situation almost immediately.  It at least confirmed for me that lucid intent incubation is more effective if I do it later in the night, without deep sleep intervening.  Need a device like yours to figure out my patterns properly though because I may be wrong about actually experiencing early REM.

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## MisakaMikoto

> ^^ I would bet,* FryingMan*, that a fairly high proportion of reported WILD's are actually DILD's, because dreamers dozed off somewhere during the process.  Just read the accounts, and note how often the process moves from actively reporting sensations to "suddenly I was in the dream," which is a telltale sign of loss of awareness.  You're just an exception, FryingMan, because you are honest with yourself about it, and notice the WILD transition never really happened.   But who cares if it wasn't a WILD?  If the WILD failed but a DILD occurred, then the prep you did for the WILD was enough to lead you to lucidity, and past that REM barrier one way or another.  Does it really matter how you get to the dream, in the end? I never thought so.
> 
> Perhaps Nfri's REM barrier is responsible for more than just difficult WILD's, but for the evolution of a modified version of DILD where you go through all the prep and process for a WILD, but fall asleep anyway, _yet still successfully become lucid_.  A semi-WILD, maybe, or para-DILD?  
> 
> Hmm. This could be a quiet new technique that has emerged unwittingly among WILDer's, one that might prove useful:  Dreamers attempting WILD's could actually build the possibility of accidental sleep into their WILD plan, but with that sleep seen as contingency, and not failure.  In other words,  keeping their minds ready for a dream whether they fall asleep or not.  That way they are ready for the DILD, probably resulting in more LD's, less wake-ups, and a whole lot fewer FA's.  And perfecting the technique might amount to little more than simply being honest with yourself, as you were, FryingMan.



That explains a lot of stuff  ::yeah:: 
I used to have WILDs in which my memory had gap between dream world and reality (Suddenly in Dream?)
And there were aswell those full-wilds in which i haven't had any gaps in consciousness.
I've managed it few times only tho:
- Through BillyBob's Pain Anchor (Focused on pain and waited?)
- Silence? (I kept my mind empty ouf of thoughts till dream scene formed i guess?)
- Sleep Deprievation (Mostly?)

So i guess maybe i'il give BillyBob's Guide once more a try  :;-):

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## Nfri

> With imagination, I take it to mean more like visual scenes and perhaps you hear part of that dream's story? That's not so bad then. You can try repeating a mantra while watching the scene to keep some awareness while the scene perhaps starts to take over since you are already falling asleep, if your problem is that it steals your awareness. Or you could try to focus on a particular place in the scene, zoom in there or imagine yourself acting in it. That way you assume a certain degree of control over the dream and retain your awareness.



My dreamlets on the beginning of sleep are like normal dreams, where I'm often just observer and the scenario is changing faster than normal dreams. It's spontaneous imagionation. Great advice that I should implement certain degree of control and thus retain awareness. Thanks!  :smiley: 
Only problem when I'm putting control there, is that it often leads to wakefulness.  :Sad:

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## ThreeCat

> My dreamlets on the beginning of sleep are like normal dreams, where I'm often just observer and the scenario is changing faster than normal dreams. It's spontaneous imagionation. Great advice that I should implement certain degree of control and thus retain awareness. Thanks! 
> Only problem when I'm putting control there, is that it often leads to wakefulness.



I posted this same question to Sageous a while back; here is his response:





> Next, if you find yourself in a similar position when the dreamlets (my guess about those mental images) come, then change that position. In other words, if you begin to sit on the curb, stand back up, or cross the street (it will appear for you if it's not there yet -- or something will), just do something that runs a little counter to the usual pattern -- and yeah, screaming "dream!" is not the best idea, I think... try to be more subtle. WILD is all about maintaining self-awareness, or in this case self-control, so it is best to assert that self-awareness at all times, especially when the dreamlets are threatening it with such distractions.

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## Ctharlhie

There's a lot going on this thread which I want to chip in on, but firstly my thoughts on the OP:

1. Let's break down our sleep stages: NREM 1 (you call this HI), 2 (you call this light sleep), and 3 (you call this deep sleep) and, of course, REM. Let's just assume we can disregard 3 (or deep/"delta" sleep) if we're starting after 4.5 hrs or so. So that leaves us with 1, 2 and REM

2. You pass through stage 1 everytime you fall asleep. While I'm not accusing you of this, Nfri, there's this common misunderstanding that you can somehow fall asleep straight into REM by timing your WBTB, this is false

3. Building on Mzzkc's thread (http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...ogression.html) I believe that what you label HI would be more accurately called stage 1 NREM

4. HI is actually associated more with the passage into stage 2 NREM than it is entry into REM

5. Look at a hypnogram, I'm pretty sure that any return to sleep involves some time in stage 2 NREM

Here's the kicker, the things that new WILDers most associate with WILD, (ie. what they experience in unsuccessful attempts, what they are told about in misinformed threads) occur in stage 2 NREM. While I think NREM 2 is the place where new WILDers get stuck, I think it's kinda a necessity to navigate it, but by no means an impossible feat. In fact it could be said that navigating NREM 2 is WILD itself as a great part of the population remain basically aware during NREM 1 (ie. you're in class and you start to slump in your chair, then suddenly jolt awake, even though you were physiologically entering sleep you could still pretty much hear what the teacher was saying, track your dream-like thoughts, etc.) During WILD you stay aware beyond this typical threshold of consciousness and pass through NREM in order to transition into a dream.

This is just my take based on my reading and as yet limited experience of WILD.

I definitely agree with you thesis that an understanding of the mechanics of sleep (even if this understanding is "intuitive" rather than "textbook) is by far more important than technique.

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## Nfri

> 1. Let's break down our sleep stages: NREM 1 (you call this HI), 2 (you call this light sleep), and 3 (you call this deep sleep) and, of course, REM. Let's just assume we can disregard 3 (or deep/"delta" sleep) if we're starting after 4.5 hrs or so. So that leaves us with 1, 2 and REM



I don't call the first stage NREM, on the contrary, I claim it's REM like. Let's say minor REM. So you have:

1. minor REM (or HI, HH, dreamlets...)
2. light sleep
3. deep sleep
4. REM

*So after ''4,5 hrs'' wbtb with well performed induction you have 3 possibilities:

1. minor REM -> REM = WILD
2. minor REM -> short light sleep -> REM = DILD
3. minor REM -> long light sleep or even deep sleep -> REM = NON LUCID DREAMS*






> (even if this understanding is "intuitive" rather than "textbook) is by far more important than technique.



My theory is result of long-term observation and analysis. I've bought eeg sensor so now I measure my hypothesis. I've already 4 results which 100% match my theory. But I need more experiments to be sure... and then I gonna public it here.

Sleep stages are easily distrubed by almost everything. So these texbook hypnograms mostly doesn't correspond with reality.

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## LDman

If I may ad my 2 cents to this discussion, most if not all of my WILDs that resulted in an LD were after an artificial awakening (alarm), so far if I wake up naturally I can lay still for a long time till I eventually fall asleep or stay up till morning so I stop my WILD-attempts then in favor of having a decent rest.
I also notice being woken up by alarm makes me feel more tired than when I wake up naturally.

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## Nfri

> most if not all of my WILDs that resulted in an LD were after an artificial awakening (alarm)



This is one way, because when you are woken up by alarm in the middle of REM, there is high chance to jump back continue in REM. I don't recommend this, I personally don't use any alarms and prefer to wake up on my intention whenever I want... Offensive alarm with bad timing may ruin sleep ergo your all day performance.

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## LDman

> This is one way, because when you are woken up by alarm in the middle of REM, there is high chance to jump back continue in REM. I don't recommend this, I personally don't use any alarms and prefer to wake up on my intention whenever I want... Offensive alarm with bad timing may ruin sleep ergo your all day performance.



Oh, I'm used to shattered sleeping in the early moring as everyone here has to get up at different times so I'm often woken up up to 3 times before it's my time to get out. (Usually around 08:00)

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## Nfri

Another proof that my theory NREM stages are barriers for lucidity.

Last night I raised my acethylcholine in my brain which should led to REM stages without NREM barriers and that's what exactly happened.

I laid down feeling sleepy and relax. Soon there are dreamlets/hypnagogic/unintended vizualization or whatever you like to call it. I believe that this is the phase when you losing your consciousness and when NREM hits, you have no consciousness left.

I had little awareness left in these dreamlets. I saw some trees in the forest. The dreamlets become more vivid, which indicated me that I'm in the middle of transition into REM phase and not into the NREM barrier. I focused on the visualization and then BOOOOOM, the REM hits! The forest become real and I'm in lucid dream.

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