# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity > Wake Initiated Lucid Dreams (WILD) >  >  Phosphenes and Wild

## Loquence

Hi! It's been a long long time since i last posted. 


My boyfriend said that he's been using phosphenes as a method to induce wild since he was a child.:

he said that he always got phosphenes whenever he closed eyes

and with concentration, he can manipulate the dots and blops and weird patterns he sees with eyes closed and turns them into shape and eventually a scene, and kind of enter into it and thats how his lucid dream starts... 

and i think this is different from hypnogagic hallucination because HH is not something you get from controling dots

anyway i've become very very interested but as for me, i hardly get phosphenes😥


is there anyone here who does this?

and is there some way i can get phosphenes easily ?


i'm not a english speaker so pls bear with me if i sound awkward T_T

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## snoop

Man, I can't not get phosphenes, I get them with my eyes open if it's completely dark half the time. Maybe reading up on the Ganzfeld Effect and the Ganzfeld Experiment could help you develop ways of getting them to show up for you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganzfeld_effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganzfeld_experiment

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## Loquence

That's an interesting experiment! I'll try it and see what happens. Have you tried it?

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## TravisE

It seems to vary by individual. I have an ever-present, light layer of noise or grainy snow that always overlays my visual field; I usually don't pay attention to it but can always see it when I look for it (it's most visible when I close my eyes or look at a plain, solid-colored surface). If I close my eyes and stare at a particular point in the noise for a while, I'll occasionally get a small, faint greenish pattern of small hexagons that lasts a couple of fleeting seconds before vanishing. I used to play with this a lot when I was very little; apparently it used to be much brighter and more vivid back then. Nowadays it seems very faint and subtle when it happens.

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## snoop

Sorry, I forgot about this thread. No, I can't say I've ever tried the experiment itself. I do know that I've applied some of the relevant knowledge concerning how the effect is achieved to visualization and LDing though. If you sufficiently deprive your eyes of stimulation (a normal room that's completely dark at night and you have your eyes closed the whole time is good enough), the neurons responsible for interpreting sight decouple completely after 15 minutes, which allows your brain's own internal signals it naturally produces to no longer be constrained by the external visual signals it receives while awake and in conditions where sufficient light hits the retinas (closing your eyes while outside, for example, still allows you to see a bright red color and some light from the outside). This allows you to use expectation, autosuggestion, and your imagination to influence the formation and interpretation of the images you see.

These signals usually start off as something like phosphenes and can evolve into full scenes over time depending on your state of consciousness and personal ability in visualization. Typically the level of control someone like your friend has isn't something people can normally do or expect to be able to do (edit: without lots of practice). Usually full on dream scenes like that are something I get occasionally if I wake up and conditions are just right, and I happen to see the scene playing out in my field of vision like a dream without me actually in it, and I can usually "step in" to it to get a lucid. I can control my phosphenes a little bit but usually they form vague outlines of things and rarely actually become detailed images. Visualizing usually takes place more in my mind's eye rather than right in front of my eyes themselves like that. Then again, I'm not all that skilled at visualizing.

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## Threeofeight

A reddish style of colours I often see when I have a good day. It's different than fantasy images in my mind's eye which are seemingly distant and in the back of the head. The reddish images tend to show themselves and come from beneath my when I close my eyes. "*Beneath my neck*" might instill that this is coming from a lower part of the body (it seems to come from inside a deeper part of my body). My current thoughts on this particular matter is that Chakra activation is 100% responsible for giving the energy that faintly reveals itself in cev. This is partly different from phosphones dots but the style of coloring is partly similar. I also theory Nitrous oxide and sunlight aids the supply of phosphones wherever they are physically located.

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## snoop

Typically the phosphenes I get are always the same color(s) (a bright key lime green and a purple that usually forms as an afterimage but occasionally are actually purple phosphenes themselves). I've experienced a deep crimson red and blue once but the circumstances we'll say were uh... atypical. Threeofeight I understand what you mean about the images from your mind's eye feeling distant and like the images are being seen/generated from within the head rather than seen by the eyes themselves when lying with your eyes closed, but I'm kind of confused about the whole reddish images concept though. Would you mind going into more detail?

Also, are you guys experiencing (or expecting) actual images to form when you're trying to induce/manipulate phosphenes? Other than in hypnagogia or with my consciousness otherwise altered do I actually see actual images form with phosphenes. Normally it's just clouds of color that I can exercise a small amount of influence over to make them dissipate and form how I want. However, actually manipulating how the phosphenes form or spread in a premeditated way is rather difficult. I'm only able to influence them on a moment-to-moment basis, modifying what's already been generated by my mind.

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## Threeofeight

Details details. What I am talking about is not exactly phosphenes but I do not know what phosphenes actually are. When you look at the sun and look away what you are left with is a fading image that is reddish/yellowish. Looking away from my computer screen right now I'd say is more purplish. It's very feint though. 

The thing I talked about and I enjoy having is structured spatial geometry that pops up when I close my eyes. The similarity with phosphenes is that they look as though I am looking into my closed eyelids except they are experienced coming from below my normal visual field. Very brilliant but very dark toned. Very psychedelic. If normally you see blackness behind the eyes you feel like you are looking at your eyelids. That's where phosphenes are typically experienced.  What I talk about would be seen to be coming more from the area of the mouth and actually the inside of my neck and maybe even jaw and back of my skull as these structures typically represent a 360 cone. It doesn't have to be coming from this side either. I haven't eaten chocolate and had a well let's say peculiar diet for the last months. And ate a little piece of dark chocolate/cacao. And saw a whirlpool spiraling from what would be the brow area just above normal eyesight. With eyes closed. With a ton of different tones of shining colors. Silvery and purple-ish very organic. And it would be accompanied with a feeling like my skull would be opening/breaking a tiny hole. It's a very releasing as if something that has been stuck like a gas suddenly found it's way out. lol. I'm not sure if that's what you like to hear but that's what I am reminded of when we talk about phosphenes.

It's interesting that you can move them. No I can only analyze phosphenes and maybe zoom in. For instance after looking at the sun I focused on the redness and one particle and saw myself becoming smaller and simultaneously the particle becoming bigger until I ended up looking at a vastly rotating yellow ball of light.

Oh yes and dream images. Fully formed dream scenes. Fully in motion. With usually very solidified human colors and content. Those are usually experienced from very far in the back of the skull.. Not entirely in eyesight at all. Please say it's the same for you or not? Not that it matters but it would be interesting to see if we can find a consensus. The very very far back of the head maybe even outside my head. This is where I usually see a dream in motion and what I connected with during WILD.  IIRC. It could very well have started outside and dragged more inside during WILD. But I never experienced wild from the 'phosphene phenomenon' that I described earlier. aa  ::tongue::

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## snoop

Thanks for responding, some of what you've said is very interesting. I think I can help in understanding what phosphenes are (and aren't).

The definition of phosphene on Wikipedia is " a phenomenon characterized by the experience of seeing light without light actually entering the eye". What you describe by looking at the sun or a computer monitor is specifically an afterimage that can be created from anything you look at provided you close your eyes and see the same image with inverted colors or even in your open visual field if the light coming from whatever you saw was bright enough. Sometimes this accounts for the auras people claim to see around people and can usually be achieved by almost staring past or behind the thing you are looking at and playing with how your eyes focus. Afterimages don't count as phosphenes because they are a direct result of neurons from the eyes having been stimulated by light. Phosphenes, according to that same article, can be induced by applying pressure to the eyes or by stimulating the retina or visual cortex with electricity or certain forms of magnetic manipulation. Seeing stars as a result of being hit by something or being lightheaded also count, but usually phosphenes are not such quickly moving points of white light, but more blobby and somewhat slower moving colors. Pressing on your eyes is a pretty well known way of producing phosphenes but they don't typically last very long.

The phosphenes I see are always something I'm recognize that I'm seeing with my eyes. Your descriptions of vision coming from other places in your body is much different from how I experience it, but in a lot of ways I can still find what you're saying similar. Your afterimage of the sun being somewhat reddish/yellowish is a little bit confusing to me, it's always a mostly green slightly blue color for me. Like I said, the afterimage is often the reverse color on a color wheel.  Anyway, the way I'm able to differentiate between phosphenes I'm seeing with my eyes open and afterimages is that they behave exactly like phosphenes do when my eyes are closed. There isn't any good physical reason for me to be seeing them in terms of light, and they swirl/grow/dissipate just as phosphenes normally do. 

Your experience with phosphenes from eating chocolate seems to indeed phosphenes, but I'm not sure I can relate to where they're coming from. All of the places I get sight from involve places in my head, but even then I always see phosphenes as if I'm looking at them using my eyes. Anyway, caffeine and the theobromine found in dark chocolate (both chemically related and with extremely similar methods of action) are known to be implicated in generating more phosphenes in some people. The different colors sounds really cool and wish I could get, but as I've mentioned mine are almost _always_ the same color. I also don't know what you mean by structured spacial geometry pop up in your vision. Do you mean like the kind in the picture I've uploaded? 

I'm not sure what you mean by seeing that particle and then seeing yourself grow smaller (I'm guessing you mean internally you feel as you are shrinking) and it growing larger. Changes in perception of body shape and size are usually more of something you experience when entering a state of hypnagogia. The fully formed dream scenes are a bit iffy for me to comment on how it feels I am seeing them. It's almost like I'm seeing them with my eyes, but at the same time I know it's my mind's eye. When I normally visualize it's with my mind's eye, but there's no ambiguity in that. When it's completely dominating my vision and I'm seeing it regardless of trying to, it's harder for me to say for certain where it's my mind's eye, it almost feels like both. In any case, my mind's eye is always a spot that's about centered with my pupils in terms of height and back to just a bit in front my ears. I've uploaded a second picture marking where it would be with a cross section of a brain in the head. I marked it in green and outlined it in red to try and make it stand out a little more. Most people tend to place the mind's eye at the pineal gland even though the secondary visual cortex is essentially the mind's eye. Even mine doesn't match up, so the feeling itself is more or less randomly determined.

edit: Neither of the images want to upload to DV, let me upload them to another site real quick.

Okay here's the first image having to do with spatial geometry.

And the second about mind's eye location.

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## Threeofeight

Thank you for responding so eloquently my reponse might not be

Ye I had no idea what the consesus is on Phosphenes. I just take what I see and go from there. Other than that strange experience with the sun. I have my ideas. In my experience the colors that I experience coming from inside are very often reddish. But that seems to be a personal preference. I've seen somewhat red dots/fireflies dance all over my body. I don't know why nature has this in place but it's very funny. The first time I actually saw something was on a dose of mushrooms with friends and looked at some kind of large machine-structure pretty much right in front of eye-sight (with eyes closed)  which was again red and with the same sort of plasmic apperance. There where more objects behind and left and right but I did not care to turn. In fact I would not know how. In later occurences visuals like these sometimes project on walls. But these hallucinations tend to prefer or occur more often in places that emit light such as reflections of sunlight in water or glass and lightbulb's reflection on walls or see-through paper.  I would not throw out auras and the likes as not having some similar mechanism but heck do I know  :tongue2:   I'm guessing these are all phosphenes.

Tbh, i don't actually am prone to seeing phosphones sober. When I press into my eyeball. I need to press really hard. I'd press harder but I want to be able to see something other than phosphenes for the rest of my life. I can see a bit of a static but not so much that I can actually discern color. They definetely don't swirl.

Yes i've seen the pictures before. In fact, I thought of some similar article/pictures when I made 1st post.  ok the patterns are familiair but what I see has added 3d spatial dimensions. If you look closer into the micro-structures they might resemble something like that.. but I can only see the macro-structures. I do not actually see the images come so close that I can see the patterns very well. Once again they are experienced coming from my neck and where my eyes are experienced that has some distance. I think it's a strange thing to say but that's how it does feel.

I like that you say you can manipulate them in some way. I haven't actually tried to do that yet

There's supposed to be a lense in the Pineal gland just like an eye and it's production of melatonin at night-time or periods of no light is very interesting. Perhaps we're seeing inside the pineal gland of sorts

Yes it's like growing smaller and in turn seeing the object grow larger. It's indeed a sensation that I often felt when attempting WILDs. In fact, it's a very hypnotic happening that really annoyed me at the time. I'd feel myself grow ever larger or ever smaller and see only blackness. But I would never get to see dream images or WILD. i just felt to be staring at a black sewer. Hence, when I saw these colors spiraling after eating chocolate it's like the sewer opened up and colors start escaping it. But never had that from Caffeine. Dark chocolate works every time. I suspect it's the Serotonin metabolized into Melatonin in the Pineal gland that is a better candidate?  :smiley: 

I am glad to see some color finally and haven't experienced this blackness in a while. But can we somehow use this light phenomenen to LD?

Excuse me if my replies sometimes aren't very complete or absent completely. In my situation I have a lot of brain fog due to lack of sunlight. I sit in front of a big screen TV instead of a monitor of sorts and this hurts my brain. So sorry if I don't come across very intellegible at times

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## Threeofeight

This phat image from Alex Grey is not exactly what I see but it does denote the style of structure and has some spatial dimentions to it that sort of goes 360. And notice the colors are red and fade into others.

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## naturespirit

I don't know if this is relevant, but when I relax, even with eyes open, I see green and purple phosphenes. I find they are definitely separate from my hypothesis and dreams. 

Side note: They were really strong in an MRI machine. Boredom or magnets?

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## snoop

> This phat image from Alex Grey is not exactly what I see but it does denote the style of structure and has some spatial dimentions to it that sort of goes 360. And notice the colors are red and fade into others.



I think I actually get what you mean by spatial dimensions... maybe. Sometimes how I interpret the "space" I'm looking at changes. Usually it involves the space getting closer or further away and growing infinitely large or infinitesimally small, but sometimes it forms odd folds and curves and I find that my phopshenes deform and "follow" the spatial geometry of the "space"/area of my vision.

I found a good animated gif of what phosphenes look like for me, although mine are less uniform and usually the phosphenes themselves don't take up such a large area of my vision except when they flow into the center of my vision. When I say I can "control" them, I can make the amount somewhat increase if I want and I can temporarily influence the path they take when flowing, but the change is immediate and something I have to do over and over if I want to get it to take a specific path and it gets a bit mentally exhausting. It's also destructive in a way toward the formation of further closed-eye visuals. Trying too hard to exert brute force control that way never works out well, kind of like how doing that too much in a lucid dream threatens how lucid/aware you are and can even make you lose control. It's best to do it passively and as few times as possible.

Phosphene gif:

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## Threeofeight

Some kind of magnetic link there maybe?  :smiley:  Saw ur face in the crystal/magnet pineal gland thread. lol

Reporting in
I was looking at blackness for a while and was about to give up before a yellow/red flash in the corner of my eye popped and stayed there. One on both sides. I will have to work more on this to increase the amount maybe. It helps to listen to good audiobook to keep awake while slowly drifting and focusing on the visual field. But it requires patience. Just for some starry visuals do you think it is worth it?

Brute force never works but you have to exert some intent to force a change I guess there's a certain balance to achieve. Say Tao-esque kind of control. lol. You kind of live and learn I guess.

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## TunnelVision

Please have him contact me. I have the same thing happen to me. It has overwhelmed me to the point i have lost control of my body after manipulating the shapes into a tunnel and feel as if i am being pulled through the tunnel. I do not think it is a dream state as i am awake when this happens. They overtake my vision randomly in daylight, at night, anytime they want to come or go. Usually they are most excited at night. Would you have him message me please, thank you.

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