# Lucid Dreaming > Dream Control >  >  How to Dilate Time

## Mini Man56

I've seen threads on "What is it," "Is it possible," "Share your experiences," and whatnot, but it still remains unclear to me HOW to use time dilation in a dream. If anyone who is experienced with this can give an explanation on how it's done, it would be greatly appreciated.

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## Lucid Lobster

I can't answer your question but your sig gave me an idea for a movie.
What if your dream characters really do have self awareness? 
If so, their entire world would be constructed by you and they'd have 
no idea. Until you told them 

"I'm about to wake up now and you folks will no longer exist. Sorry" 

then .. POOF. That would make a great movie - a movie about people who live in a virtual world and only exist for a moment in other people's lucid dreams. 

Now I return you to your original question  .. which I don't know the foggiest answer to.

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## MadHatter17

> I can't answer your question but your sig gave me an idea for a movie.
> What if your dream characters really do have self awareness? 
> If so, their entire world would be constructed by you and they'd have 
> no idea. Until you told them 
> 
> "I'm about to wake up now and you folks will no longer exist. Sorry" 
> 
> then .. POOF. That would make a great movie - a movie about people who live in a virtual world and only exist for a moment in other people's lucid dreams. 
> 
> Now I return you to your original question  .. which I don't know the foggiest answer to.



Its called Vanilla Sky.

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## Inside This Fantasy

When you say time dilation, do you mean making a minute feel like an hour?

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## Desert Claw

> When you say time dilation, do you mean making a minute feel like an hour?



yeah thats what hes on about. my opinion - its just a chain of dreams that go on throughout the night. that leads to another thing, have you ever noticed that you don't usually get out of the car, or walk to your nextdoor neighbours house? think about it

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## Applejaxz

I have had it happen to me, but I'd guess using and controling it is a completely different thing. it is probably nearly impossible to intentionally induce for the purpose of prolonging a dream. you would have to be a yogalucid god

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## KingCarnie

Actually, research has found that in most cases time in a lucid dream corresponds to actual time, and non-lucid dreams usually have no connection to actual time. So what seems like 15 minutes in a lucid dream is usually about 15 minutes. However, there is evidence that sometimes lucid dreams have alternate times, just like non-lucid dreams. So time dilation is probably possible.

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## Richnfg

> When you say time dilation, do you mean making a minute feel like an hour?



It's like this morning when I had a non-lucid dream. I was only asleep for about 20 minutes or something, but I had a dream that felt like it lasted for hours. It's a great feeling! haha. If there was only a way to control it? Maybe create a time dilation machine?  :tongue2:

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## juroara

its only happened to me in vivid but no necessarily lucid dreams. and from what I gather, its really a matter of perception 

the last time I tried to extend my dream, while lucid, I simply stayed in the dream longer in real time. in other words, I woke up 30 minutes late for work  :tongue2:

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## Hukif

I has done it in 2 different ways, putting extreme attention on time passing and just willing it to slow down or making matter around me move faster and my perception slower without heat, that makes time slower for me, doesn't work that well... but at least it works for me <.<

And I know, my ideas sound silly.

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## arby

Conscious time dilation could only be accomplished through the use of doublethink. (ie. holding the mutually contradictory knowledge that you are slowing down time and the belief that time is flowing as normal)

If you realize you are using time dilation while you are using it, it doesn't work. If you are aware of what real time is, (and your body has a pretty good approximation of it) then you stick to it.

Using doublethink requires the use of doublethink. Have fun with that ;P

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## Richnfg

> Conscious time dilation could only be accomplished through the use of doublethink. (ie. holding the mutually contradictory knowledge that you are slowing down time and the belief that time is flowing as normal)
> 
> If you realize you are using time dilation while you are using it, it doesn't work. If you are aware of what real time is, (and your body has a pretty good approximation of it) then you stick to it.
> 
> Using doublethink requires the use of doublethink. Have fun with that ;P



Haha, woah, I think my brain just fell apart. I see what you're saying, but wouldn't slowing down time for yourself alone escape this predicament? You'd then be stuck trying to interact with things that are moving at say a tenth of the speed, though! Time is a nasty subject.

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## arby

> Haha, woah, I think my brain just fell apart. I see what you're saying, but wouldn't slowing down time for yourself alone escape this predicament? You'd then be stuck trying to interact with things that are moving at say a tenth of the speed, though! Time is a nasty subject.



Yeah, the problem with being aware that you cannot get time to be different and seem normal at the same time.You can slow down time or you can make it so that all you are doing is perceiving everything as going faster then it should be. You will notice everything happening more quickly and you will not be able to absorb it. It's like hitting a fast forward button.

Time dilation really is tricky. If I were you, I'd just drop it altogether. People more accomplished then me have tried to tackle it (I failed when I tried, and it was a concentrated, informed effort) and as far as I've heard, they never succeeded. save your lucids for better things.

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## detroitLions1970

> Yeah, the problem with being aware that you cannot get time to be different and seem normal at the same time.You can slow down time or you can make it so that all you are doing is perceiving everything as going faster then it should be. You will notice everything happening more quickly and you will not be able to absorb it. It's like hitting a fast forward button.
> 
> Time dilation really is tricky. If I were you, I'd just drop it altogether. People more accomplished then me have tried to tackle it (I failed when I tried, and it was a concentrated, informed effort) and as far as I've heard, they never succeeded. save your lucids for better things.



I only have one thing to say. Einstein's theory of relativity, guys!

I would seriously like to see this looked at a little closer. Einstein says that under certain conditions, time is modified. Maybe this will work on the dreaming plane? Have fun  :smiley: .

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## Ryuinfinity

I once managed to dilate time slightly by meditating in a dream. I was only asleep for about 30 seconds before I woke up, but it felt like at least a minute.  :tongue2:

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## Widowmaker

> I only have one thing to say. Einstein's theory of relativity, guys!
> 
> I would seriously like to see this looked at a little closer. Einstein says that under certain conditions, time is modified. Maybe this will work on the dreaming plane? Have fun .



Time is relative...hence relativity, but unfortunately, our brain cannot create either condition required for true time dilation to exist (dramatic increase in velocity or gravity). Even if we could experience true time dilation (by, perhaps, riding on a spacecraft that could travel at a significant percentage of C), time would still seem to pass normally for us. That is, our dreams will still only last an hour or so (at max). Why? Because, despite the fact that time would have seemed to have slowed down (or, more appropriately, time for everybody else would have seemed to have sped up), our frame of reference wouldn't have changed. An hour is still an hour for us, despite the fact that one of our hours might correspond to one hundred hours for a stationary observer. Put more practically, if you were to live on a spaceship (that was traveling at a significant percentage of C) for a year, you would still only be a year older, while the rest of the universe could be thousands of years older than when you boarded the space ship.

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## moonshine

> have you ever noticed that you don't usually get out of the car, or walk to your nextdoor neighbours house? think about it



This is an incredibly important point. 
If you can grasp the meaning it will be clear how much BS the "time dilation"
idea really is.

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## yuriythebest

> This is an incredibly important point. 
> If you can grasp the meaning it will be clear how much BS the "time dilation"
> idea really is.



I read a similar analogy that LD's are like movies- they skip over the boring parts. If a person in a movie goes to sleep at night and a few seconds later we see the scene change to a sunrise and a morning landscape we "assume" that 6-7 hours went by while we just saw it happen in several seconds on the screen.

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## zezu

time dilation in the mind sence has nothing to do with reletivity as we would be in the time frame that is slowing down on the out side causing no effect so throw that idea out please

right perseption of time can be changed wile awake , asleep , well that covers it realy

i have experience in changing the perseption of time whilst awake and find it easy to go into it asleep throw whatever you want at that comment im not realy bothered

now the perseption of time is changed by the brains speed in prossesing information , the speed is increased dramitcaly causing you to think everything else is moving slowly (a car doing 70 over taking a car doing 40 in the perspective of the 70mph car the 40 one is reeeeealy slow)

increasing brain speed while asleep may wake you up or devaluate the purpose of being asleep (to rest)

so just imagine a slow-mo routine this wont lengthen the dream time because things will just be hapening slower (watch a film at half speed , if normaly ita an hour long youl only get half way through if watched for the same amount of time)

hope this clears any problems up

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## Mini Man56

Thanks for all the input, guys.

From all this, I gather that time dilation wouldn't work if you do it on purpose, for that would require you to be thinking in two timeframes at once... which is impossible.

Increasing the speed of the brain is the only logical option, but like zezu said, it would probably rob the brain of restful sleep.

So really, I guess it's not really learnable after all...

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## Speesh

I've always thought that time dilation has to do with how much one is stimulating their mind. Two personal experiences: my first day of working at a coffee shop. I had no idea what I was doing and was put in front of customers after about 10 minutes of half-assed training. That shift felt about twice as long as it actually was. After working there for two weeks however, everything was pretty much down to a science. All those tasks that were difficult on my first day became unconscious habit. Shifts felt half as long as they actually were. 

Also, the first few weeks I spent at University were the longest of my life. Finding classes, living in a dorm, all drastically new experiences. Once I started to make sense of it all the weeks started to go by like days. Everything became routine not too dissimilar from my summer job. 

The way I see it there's two interrelated ways you can make it happen. One is to create novel experiences, something like my examples that forces the mind to be stimulated. The other is to train awareness in waking life through mindfulness techniques, to remove that unconscious routine that dominates us throughout the average day. If you can get that control over awareness in waking life, you can probably push it much farther in a sleep state, as your mind is working at a much higher potential, and regular rules of time don't necessarily exist in that reality.

But this is all speculation, I don't have enough experience with dreams yet to know if this is true. Someday...

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## moonshine

> I've always thought that time dilation has to do with how much one is stimulating their mind. Two personal experiences: my first day of working at a coffee shop. I had no idea what I was doing and was put in front of customers after about 10 minutes of half-assed training. That shift felt about twice as long as it actually was. After working there for two weeks however, everything was pretty much down to a science. All those tasks that were difficult on my first day became unconscious habit. Shifts felt half as long as they actually were. 
> 
> Also, the first few weeks I spent at University were the longest of my life. Finding classes, living in a dorm, all drastically new experiences. Once I started to make sense of it all the weeks started to go by like days. Everything became routine not too dissimilar from my summer job. 
> 
> The way I see it there's two interrelated ways you can make it happen. One is to create novel experiences, something like my examples that forces the mind to be stimulated. The other is to train awareness in waking life through mindfulness techniques, to remove that unconscious routine that dominates us throughout the average day. If you can get that control over awareness in waking life, you can probably push it much farther in a sleep state, as your mind is working at a much higher potential, and regular rules of time don't necessarily exist in that reality.
> 
> But this is all speculation, I don't have enough experience with dreams yet to know if this is true. Someday...




Thats interesting. 
Its theorised that the reason the days during childhood seemed to last forever was because every moment brought new experiences and your brain worked over time to file them away. 

As an adult, most of your memory engrams are "burned" already.
So experiences seem to go faster.

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## moonshine

> I would seriously like to see this looked at a little closer. Einstein says that under certain conditions, time is modified. Maybe this will work on the dreaming plane? Have fun .




Theres no such thing as the dreaming plane...if your trying to infer another level of existence. 

"Maybe this will work in the dreaming brain" is much more accurate.

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## ClouD

I have not wilfully succeeded in dilating time to any great extent, though have experienced a few overly long dreams for time periods that do not match even remotely (some quite recently).

I agree with the importance that many non-significant actions are skipped in dreams, though my personal experiences have been different enough in lengths of feeling that when realising, it has always been a great surprise.

I've had quite a few dreams now that seem to carry on for periods that feel much longer than when I find out how long it has been. The greatest one (and most recent) I remember felt as if it lasted a few hours, and was relatively high in clarity -- remembering the array of events with the senses I could recall, clearly didn't fit with the apparent <20 minute time slot.

The feeling of time changes constantly for everyone (I assume), and when it does to this extent I think the entirely subjective nature of perception becomes apparent.

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## AngelZlayer

The brain is very much capable of creating hallucinations and other illusions, so why wouldn't it be possible that the brain might be able to create the illusion that a lucid dream is longer than it really is?
Who knows, maybe the brain can speed up a dream, but put the mind/consciousness so that we experience the dream as going at normal speed (in 1 real-life minute we experience 1 dream-hour/1 hour of lucid dreaming, for example).

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## moonshine

> The brain is very much capable of creating hallucinations and other illusions, so why wouldn't it be possible that the brain might be able to create the illusion that a lucid dream is longer than it really is?
> Who knows, maybe the brain can speed up a dream, but put the mind/consciousness so that we experience the dream as going at normal speed (in 1 real-life minute we experience 1 dream-hour/1 hour of lucid dreaming, for example).



Probably not, no. 

In my experience Lucids always last just as long as they take in real life. 
I always check the clock before going under and after waking up. 

Lets not forget that the longer a dream lasts the harder it is to remember anything. Anyone who says they can make a dream last hours is bullshitting.

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## AngelZlayer

> Probably not, no. 
> 
> In my experience Lucids always last just as long as they take in real life. 
> I always check the clock before going under and after waking up.



I'm still hoping there is a possibility though. That would be awesome  ::D: 





> Lets not forget that the longer a dream lasts the harder it is to remember anything. Anyone who says they can make a dream last hours is bullshitting.



But in a lucid dream you are fully concious, so shouldn't it be easier to remember than in an ordinary dream?

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## moonshine

> But in a lucid dream you are fully concious, so shouldn't it be easier to remember than in an ordinary dream?



In my experience, it can be a wee bit easier, but its by no means a sure thing. For longer lucids I do find I have to think things through and work backwords from the end, much as I do when trying to recall normal dreams. 

Thats why so many people advise that if you've had a very interesting lucid, you should wake yourself up to ensure you remember.

It think this is especially an issue when Chaining dreams.

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## Mini Man56

Hmm... Speaking of chaining dreams, do you think it's possible that some people who have had dreams that last for hours had actually chained dreams together, but then forgot about actually waking up and chaining them?

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## detroitLions1970

> Hmm... Speaking of chaining dreams, do you think it's possible that some people who have had dreams that last for hours had actually chained dreams together, but then forgot about actually waking up and chaining them?



Certainly. Sometimes people wake in the night, go to he bathroom, and go back to bed - and because they're mind is still in "sleep memory" (yes, your memory is recorded differently when dreaming), they lose recollection of it, and forget it even happened.

This is why remembering dreams is so hard, and why you should try to record them / move them to long term memory as quickly as possible.

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## ClouD

> Lets not forget that the longer a dream lasts the harder it is to remember anything. Anyone who says they can make a dream last hours is bullshitting.



So certain from inexperience?

Have you not dreamt for hours? You are asleep for about 8 hours, dreaming for a few hours shouldn't seem so impossible?

Just being a little more detached/aware (not so difficult if you make it habitual) gets you that much more conscious, not that you have to be so alert to remember *hours* of dreams.

You don't have to be lucid to remember dreams (as you know), and wouldn't level of recall be different with each person regardless?

Just really that calling 'bullshit' on something due to your lack of experiencing to that certain extent, is ignorant.

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## Speesh

> Probably not, no. 
> 
> In my experience Lucids always last just as long as they take in real life. 
> I always check the clock before going under and after waking up. 
> 
> Lets not forget that the longer a dream lasts the harder it is to remember anything. Anyone who says they can make a dream last hours is bullshitting.



I take it you don't believe time is subjective then? Hehe just realized my avatar's getting increasingly relevant to the topic.

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## moonshine

> I take it you don't believe time is subjective then? Hehe just realized my avatar's getting increasingly relevant to the topic.



Of course its subjective. 
But imagining myself changing from a child to an old man in a dream that last 3 seconds is not the same as having a dream that lasts 60 years.

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## moonshine

> So certain from inexperience?
> 
> Have you not dreamt for hours? You are asleep for about 8 hours, dreaming for a few hours shouldn't seem so impossible?
> 
> Just being a little more detached/aware (not so difficult if you make it habitual) gets you that much more conscious, not that you have to be so alert to remember *hours* of dreams.
> 
> You don't have to be lucid to remember dreams (as you know), and wouldn't level of recall be different with each person regardless?
> 
> Just really that calling 'bullshit' on something due to your lack of experiencing to that certain extent, is ignorant.



Actually it is my experience which allows me to make this determination, as well as the experience of numerous others.

"Dreaming for a few hours". Funny you should mention that, as humans generally have about 90minutes to 2 hours of REM sleep in total in any one night. It is highly improbable that someone can remember the events of every single REM period without waking up after each period to memorise and record. 

As most experiences lucid dreamers know, the longest REM periods are at the end of the night, where you might be lucky enough to have up to an hour. If you do have a dream, lucid or otherwise, which lasts an hour, it is going to be very difficult to recall everything from the start. 

I myself have experienced Lucids 30 to 45 minutes, though this may just be a matter of perception. 

None of this has anything to do with the concept  of "Dream Time Dilation", which I rightly claim to be bullshit.

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## ClouD

> Actually it is my experience which allows me to make this determination, as well as the experience of numerous others.
> 
> "Dreaming for a few hours". Funny you should mention that, as humans generally have about 90minutes to 2 hours of REM sleep in total in any one night. It is highly improbable that someone can remember the events of every single REM period without waking up after each period to memorise and record. 
> 
> As most experiences lucid dreamers know, the longest REM periods are at the end of the night, where you might be lucky enough to have up to an hour. If you do have a dream, lucid or otherwise, which lasts an hour, it is going to be very difficult to recall everything from the start. 
> 
> I myself have experienced Lucids 30 to 45 minutes, though this may just be a matter of perception. 
> 
> None of this has anything to do with the concept  of "Dream Time Dilation", which I rightly claim to be bullshit.



Your lack of experience with dreaming for extended periods of time _and consciously remembering_, along with the 'numerous others', is not _experience_ at all, it is inexperience.

I have heard you can dream, and lucid dream, outside of REM periods, not that I understand nor really care for technicalities.

Probability has only to do with statistics, some people train recall, some people already have good recall, some people have shit recall. 'Highly improbable' sounds like you're speaking for all lucid dreamers.

Recall is more difficult than just remembering. If you are conscious enough during the dreaming, then there's no need to strain to recall, I find it comes as easy as normal memories depending on the engaged senses.

I'm speaking of my own experience, I don't know the science behind it, but cynicism redundantly gives way to reality.

I don't know about REM periods, but I do know _from experience_ that 'time' is relative, right now is all there is and that is the essence of lucidity, not whether I think that I've logically had dreams that last hours, or whether you outright call bullshit on everything outside of your box, without the consideration that it is relative to interpretation.

Time dilation, time being subjective and dilation being the expansion of that subjective interpretation. I don't see how you can call 'bullshit' on that, unless you believe that time is entirely objective, which you've expressed you don't -- it looks contradicting.

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## Speesh

> Time dilation, time being subjective and dilation being the expansion of that subjective interpretation. I don't see how you can call 'bullshit' on that, unless you believe that time is entirely objective, which you've expressed you don't -- it looks contradicting.



Gotta agree with this. I've once heard that time is an illusion created by memory, and recently I'm starting to believe this to be true. Objectively we as a species (or more precisely, culture) call something an hour or a minute. We assign very specific meanings to a very abstract, subjective concept. But each person experiences an hour differently from everyone else, based on differences in perception. Dilation is, as you realize, not something one can manipulate by sheer force of will. It is only a more elaborate illusion of the memory, formed from an altered perception. 

Perception's a tricky thing to change, but it can be done. Those who detail experiences on psychedelic drugs often refer to time seeming longer. Same goes for those who have lots of meditation experience under their belts. Dreaming is a weird state of consciousness and perception not too dissimilar from either of those states. 

Obviously there are limits, 60 years in 3 seconds is a very farfetched notion. I figure even if it was possible it would overload the human brain thousands of times over. But I have heard of single REM cycles feeling like they last for 8 hours. If you really believe time is subjective, its certainly possible to think that the illusion of 90 minutes can be interpreted by one's memory as a few hours, or even a few minutes. In my case it is usually the latter, I generally have a pretty weak mind in waking life and thusly dreams usually feel much shorter than they actually are.

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## RedfishBluefish

It may be possible to experience an hour or something in a minute or whatever,  supposing the experience of time is indeed subjective. However. There is a finite amount of processing the brain can do in any amount of time. So if one managed to make a dream last longer by time dilation, they would either have to take adrenelin or something to drastically increase their "brain power", or just pay the price of being a little "slow on the uptake" during the dream  :tongue2: .

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## Icarus22

How long are you actually dreaming then?

Because I've had dreams that are easily one or two hours long in the dream, but I'm not sure if that was in real time or all in my head, because I'll sleep for about 6 hours.

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## moonshine

> Gotta agree with this. I've once heard that time is an illusion created by memory, and recently I'm starting to believe this to be true. Objectively we as a species (or more precisely, culture) call something an hour or a minute. We assign very specific meanings to a very abstract, subjective concept. But each person experiences an hour differently from everyone else, based on differences in perception. Dilation is, as you realize, not something one can manipulate by sheer force of will. It is only a more elaborate illusion of the memory, formed from an altered perception. 
> 
> Perception's a tricky thing to change, but it can be done. Those who detail experiences on psychedelic drugs often refer to time seeming longer. Same goes for those who have lots of meditation experience under their belts. Dreaming is a weird state of consciousness and perception not too dissimilar from either of those states. 
> 
> Obviously there are limits, 60 years in 3 seconds is a very farfetched notion. I figure even if it was possible it would overload the human brain thousands of times over. But I have heard of single REM cycles feeling like they last for 8 hours. If you really believe time is subjective, its certainly possible to think that the illusion of 90 minutes can be interpreted by one's memory as a few hours, or even a few minutes. In my case it is usually the latter, I generally have a pretty weak mind in waking life and thusly dreams usually feel much shorter than they actually are.




I think your missing the point. 
I'm talking about the way dreams have a tendency to skip the boring bits. 
My analogy, though extreme, served the purpose. 
You may beleive you have lived 60 years in a very short time.
But you absolutely have not.

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## ChaybaChayba

To dilate time, simply slow down your rythm. Slowing down your breath for example will make time go slower. Also works irl.

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## moonshine

> Your lack of experience with dreaming for extended periods of time _and consciously remembering_, along with the 'numerous others', is not _experience_ at all, it is inexperience.
> 
> I have heard you can dream, and lucid dream, outside of REM periods, not that I understand nor really care for technicalities.
> 
> Probability has only to do with statistics, some people train recall, some people already have good recall, some people have shit recall. 'Highly improbable' sounds like you're speaking for all lucid dreamers.
> 
> Recall is more difficult than just remembering. If you are conscious enough during the dreaming, then there's no need to strain to recall, I find it comes as easy as normal memories depending on the engaged senses.
> 
> I'm speaking of my own experience, I don't know the science behind it, but cynicism redundantly gives way to reality.
> ...




Have to say, your Zen Master posturing is tedious in the extreme. 

NREM dreams are very different from REM dreams - so hardly a technicality. 

Why is it whenever I read TIME DILATION on the board, it is always described by some self proclaimed lucid guru with mastery of dream time and space. Apparently. 

It is very much not sold as being a matter of perception, but as being able to make a 30 minute dream actually last 2 hours using only the power of their giant minds!  ::D:  And it is this - clearly - which I am calling Bullshit.

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## moonshine

http://amos.indiana.edu/library/scripts/dreamtime.html




> any people believe that hours' worth of events and activities can be dreamed about in a matter seconds. Despite this common belief about how we dream, time in dreams actually is not compressed. If you dream of an activity that would take five minutes in waking life, you probably dream about it for a full five minutes.  
> 
> Dream and sleep researcher William Dement conducted two studies that demonstrated that dream time was similar to real time. Because dreamers' eyes move under their eyelids very rapidly while they are dreaming, Dement was able to monitor sleepers and record the length of their dreams by observing their rapid eye movement. 
> 
> After recording this information, Dement would wake dreamers and have them write down a description of their most recent dream. He assumed that longer dreams would take more words to describe than shorter ones. When he compared the number of words in each dream report with the number of minutes the dream had occurred, he found that the longer the dream, the more words the dreamer used to describe it. 
> 
> In another related experiment, Dement woke sleepers while they were dreaming and asked them how long they perceived their most recent dream had taken. Eighty-three percent of the time they perceived correctly whether their dreams had been going on for a long time or for a short time. With these experiments, Dement concluded that time in dreams is nearly identical to time in waking life. 
> 
> So the next time in your dreams you slay a dragon or fly from your house to your workplace, the amount of time it seemed to take is probably just about how long it actually took to dream it.

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## moonshine

http://www.here-be-dreams.com/lucid/time-distort.html




> Time in Dreams
> A Broken Arrow
> Many people worry that they might become "stuck" in a lucid dream. This fear is probably fuelled by the number of stories and TV shows that have used this device. In fact it's far more likely that the shock of becoming lucid will wake you too early.
> Experiments have shown that time in dreams seems to flow at the same rate as time in the "real" world. If that's so then how come some of our dreams seem to last hours, days or even longer?
> 
> The answer seems to be that dreams are "cinematic".
> 
> 
> Dream Cinema
> ...

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## ChaybaChayba

Despite all your "proof" that it is impossible to dilate dream time, many important intellectual minds like Albert Einstein, Nikola Tesla, Aldoux Huxley, etc used this technique as an advanced way of thinking. Here is an example of someone using his daydreams to slow down time and by doing that, being able to calculate faster than a calculator. http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/a...athemagic.html.

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## Cn

I can't wait until someone makes a post on how they just woke up from a 10 year dream, or something. I just can't wait...

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## moonshine

> Despite all your "proof" that it is impossible to dilate dream time, many important intellectual minds like Albert Einstein, Nikola Tesla, Aldoux Huxley, etc used this technique as an advanced way of thinking. Here is an example of someone using his daydreams to slow down time and by doing that, being able to calculate faster than a calculator. http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/a...athemagic.html.



Wouldn't call it my proof.
The research was by sleep scientists.

Not sure of the relevance of your link. Rain man could count very quickly, and was apparently a very good driver. 
But I am fairly certain he couldn't stretch time like toffee.

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## The Cusp

There was a lame joke on last night's episode of Fringe about time dialation.


A man asks his doctor "If I give up women, booze and song, will I live longer?"

The doctor replies "No, but it will feel longer."

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## Costello

> I can't answer your question but your sig gave me an idea for a movie.



They made it already, it's called The Matrix.  :tongue2:

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## moonshine

> There was a lame joke on last night's episode of Fringe about time dialation.
> 
> 
> A man asks his doctor "If I give up women, booze and song, will I live longer?"
> 
> The doctor replies "No, but it will feel longer."




 ::lol:: Which actually sums up the reality quite nicely!

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## Speesh

> It is very much not sold as being a matter of perception, but as being able to make a 30 minute dream actually last 2 hours using only the power of their giant minds!  And it is this - clearly - which I am calling Bullshit.



I see what you're getting at, and I think we're on different pages here. Its not making a 30 minute dream actually longer, its about making it seem longer. Farfetched concept I know but I chase it nonetheless just for the possibility. 

Either way I don't think I can contribute anymore here. To the OP, I suggest you check out mindfulness meditation and similar techniques if you want to look into this stuff more. Its all about honing perception/awareness into the physical world more.

----------


## Icarus22

I realize you can't make 30 minutes into 2 hours, but you can make it *feel*  like two hours can't you?

I've had multiple hour dreams before that seemed to last so freaking long.

----------


## ClouD

> Have to say, your Zen Master posturing is tedious in the extreme. 
> 
> NREM dreams are very different from REM dreams - so hardly a technicality. 
> 
> Why is it whenever I read TIME DILATION on the board, it is always described by some self proclaimed lucid guru with mastery of dream time and space. Apparently. 
> 
> It is very much not sold as being a matter of perception, but as being able to make a 30 minute dream actually last 2 hours using only the power of their giant minds!  And it is this - clearly - which I am calling Bullshit.



Mhm.
1. Zen is for fools. A master fool means nothing to me. Zen discussion is a moot point, and entirely *unrelated* to the conversation.

2. 'Apparently', you've not been following correctly. I said I have not wilfully dilated time within a dream successfully, but on a few occasions have been strangely surprised by what seems to not fit -- as I said, I think the subjectivity becomes apparent.

3. Cut the 'giant minds' so that egotism isn't a factor, and suddenly calling 'clearly bullshit' on describing an already discussed (and apparently ignored by you) determination of the subjectivity of time dilation, looks even more ignorant of contradiction than the first time you typed 'bullshit' against it.

-

Icarus22 and Speesh, the 'feeling' is the interpretation. There is no objectivity involved whatsoever. Even a clock abides by your interpretation.

----------


## moonshine

Copernicus says: 



> Mhm.
> 1. Zen is for fools. A master fool means nothing to me.



 FYI This would be some of that tedious posturing. 





> 2. 'Apparently', you've not been following correctly. I said I have not wilfully dilated time within a dream successfully, but on a few occasions have been strangely surprised by what seems to not fit



Actually what you said was that you hadn't been succesful in "Dilating time to any great extent". Which is not the same as saying you haven't at all.





> 3. Cut the 'giant minds' so that egotism isn't a factor, and suddenly calling 'clearly bullshit' on describing an already discussed (and apparently ignored by you) determination of the subjectivity of time dilation, looks even more ignorant of contradiction than the first time you typed 'bullshit' against it.



 I suspect if Egotism wasn't a factor you wouldn't constructing rather oblique arguments like the above. 

For the record, I don't believe there is any particular rule with regards to expressing an opinion on a the subject under discussion...whether I agree with the consensus or not. 

I stand by my initial statement. The term Dilation does mean the Literal stretching of time. Anybody who claims they can literally dilate dream time is absolutely bullshitting  :smiley: .

You may now be contradicting yourself. 
Your earlier posts seem to infer that actual time dilation is achievable via transcendental levels of awareness. 

Now your saying that its simply a matter of perception. Can't see how that adds up. If your vast levels of experience do bring you such a crystal clear awareness of your dreams, how come you still don't realise that your dream is jumping around and your imagining time passing which actually hasn't?

Just sayin'

----------


## moonshine

> I realize you can't make 30 minutes into 2 hours, but you can make it *feel*  like two hours can't you?



Maybe if you dream you're standing in a que watching some old woman counting out small change. I'd bet that would seem like forever!  ::D:

----------


## ClouD

> Copernicus says:  FYI This would be some of that tedious posturing.



Inside joke, deal with it.




> Actually what you said was that you hadn't been succesful in "Dilating time to any great extent". Which is not the same as saying you haven't at all.



I implied that the only way that time dilation could be seen was through a great extent. How would you even suspect there was time dilation otherwise?  ::doh:: 




> I suspect if Egotism wasn't a factor you wouldn't constructing rather oblique arguments like the above.



Don't get what you're implying other than I'm egotistic?  ::cry:: 




> For the record, I don't believe there is any particular rule with regards to expressing an opinion on a the subject under discussion...whether I agree with the consensus or not.



Note the contradictions instead of ignoring them and repeating your opinion blindly.




> I stand by my initial statement. The term Dilation does mean the Literal stretching of time. Anybody who claims they can literally dilate dream time is absolutely bullshitting .



Semantics to restate your opinion within *possible* validity, but no, time is subjective, there is no literal stretching of time other than subjectively so.

Also, your 'initial statement' in this thread about your defining of the term doesn't exist.




> You may now be contradicting yourself. 
> Your earlier posts seem to infer that actual time dilation is achievable via transcendental levels of awareness.



'May' 'seem to infer', more semantics?
Even if I have, I can't remember, and I must've been as stupid as I am. Regardless...even in the possible context you've displayed, contradiction to the previous shows change.
That you blindly flail in ignorance to contradiction, shows nothing but disinformation tactics to not swallow pride.




> Now you're saying that its simply a matter of perception. Can't see how that adds up. If your vast levels of experience do bring you such a crystal clear awareness of your dreams, how come you still don't realise that your dream is jumping around and you're imagining time passing which actually hasn't?
> 
> Just sayin'



Time is perception, it is imaginary.
Again, you've continued the idea that time is objective, while holding onto that you don't believe it is - which is the exact contradiction I'm talking about.

----------


## moonshine

> Inside joke, deal with it.



Seems your the only one on the inside, doesn't it. 







> I implied that the only way that time dilation could be seen was through a great extent. How would you even suspect there was time dilation otherwise?



 ::lol::  No. What you actually said is a matter of record. 






> Don't get what you're implying other than I'm egotistic?



Well done Daniel-san. Can I add pretentious to the mix? 





> Note the contradictions instead of ignoring them and repeating your opinion blindly.



Don't think I will thanks. I think that what I will do is offer my own opinions without feeling the need to reference each and every previous post specifically. You know, in much the same way as everyone else does.

I will also repeat my opinions if it is relevant to ongoing discussions. 






> Semantics to restate your opinion within *possible* validity, but no, time is subjective, there is no literal stretching of time other than subjectively so.



Seems to me that you're the one hiding behind sematics. I've been fairly clear as to my take on it. 





> Also, your 'initial statement' in this thread about your defining of the term doesn't exist.



Do you think so? I can only hope the subsequent posts cleared things up.  ::roll:: 





> 'May' 'seem to infer', more semantics?



You tell me champ. What would you call saying one thing then saying the opposite? 





> Even if I have, I can't remember, and I must've been as stupid as I am. Regardless...even in the possible context you've displayed, contradiction to the previous shows change.
> That you blindly flail in ignorance to contradiction, shows nothing but disinformation tactics to not swallow pride.



 ::D: Is this a haiku? You're a charmer though aren't you ClouD?
To be honest, It seems you're the one who's pride is hurt. 
Layering on reams of indecipherable baseless criticism would be more akin to the blind flailing you describe. 





> Time is perception, it is imaginary.
> Again, you've continued the idea that time is objective, while holding onto that you don't believe it is - which is the exact contradiction I'm talking about.



No. Time is time. Unless your rocketing around the universe at the speed of light, theres no changing that.

I've been pretty clear on this. Maybe you should read some of my posts.


By the way, you didn't answer my question.

----------


## moonshine

Interesting post from another thread. Defines Time Dilation as DV members commonly understand it. 





> Your experiences of your subjective sense of waking time slowing down, while certainly interesting, ultimately have little to do with the topic of time dilation as it pertains to dreaming. So far the only poster who has actually described an experience that could be rightfully labeled 'time dilation' is juroara, with the comment, "...I have this incredible amazing lucid dream, in the span of a minute or less." In dreaming, time dilation refers to the phenomenon of experiencing a great amount of dream time in a small amount of waking time. For example, someone may take a brief 20-minute nap and then wake up reporting that they went on a 3-hour long adventure in their dream. In extreme cases, people have even claimed to have experienced literal years of dream time in a single night.
> 
> Some people may say that I am nitpicking, but I think it's important that we at least keep our terms straight.




Heres an old thread on the subject. No idea why it wasn't dropped into beyond dreaming. 

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...=time+dilation

----------


## ClouD

Moonshine, you're being ignorant. Enough with insults and tell me why I'm wrong and you're right.





> Lets not forget that the longer a dream lasts the harder it is to remember anything. Anyone who says they can make a dream last hours is bullshitting.



1. Let 'us', being you only speaking on behalf of your opinions, you are not speaking objectively.
2. 'Harder'. Level of difficulty is subjective, and the level of recall is also different for every person -- I've pointed this out.
3. You've stated with certainty that 'anyone who says they can make a dream last hours is bullshitting'. This is not certain, because time is not objective, it is subjective and relative, hence this is a FALSE STATEMENT.

Tell me why what I've said is wrong, and that what you've said is right and is a true and certain statement, as it was presented.





> I myself have experienced Lucids 30 to 45 minutes, though this may just be a matter of perception. 
> 
> None of this has anything to do with the concept  of "Dream Time Dilation", which I rightly claim to be bullshit.



1. It _is_ a matter of perception, I never said it wasn't. In fact I pointed out that perception of time is subjective.
2. 'Dream Time Dilation' has _everything_ to do with the falsity of the first statement which I pointed out. If time is subjectively perceived, then there can be no certainty of whether everyone is 'bullshitting', which becomes obsolete anyway since it is up to interpretation, which makes the statement false and ignorant. This means that 'Dream Time Dilation' is entirely subjective, as it would be dilation of a SOLELY relative and subjectively experienced perception of time.
3. You can 'rightly' claim whatever you like, that does not mean that it is fact.

*Time dilation, time being perceived subjectively and dilation being the expansion of that subjective interpretation. I don't see how you can call 'bullshit' on that, unless you believe that time is entirely objective, which you've expressed you don't -- it looks contradicting.* vv SEE BELOW vv





> I take it you don't believe time is subjective then?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by moonshine
> 
> 
> Of course its subjective.



If you believe that time is subjective, as you have said, then your statements are false, and ignorant of the obvious contradiction. They are blindly calling 'bullshit' on things that cannot even be analysed or verified objectively, and have no validity at all.

Not hard to grasp.

If you can refute then I eagerly await, but if you want to just call bullshit and claim validity without acknowledging any contradictions or flaws, then I'll have no part of the retarded disinformation run-around.

----------


## moonshine

Wow. Your really throwing everything at the wall with this one.
I can see why you're called ClouD. I think smoke-screen would me more accurate though...  

I think I see your problem.





> _Time dilation, time being perceived subjectively and dilation being the expansion of that subjective interpretation. I don't see how you can call 'bullshit' on that, unless you believe that time is entirely objective, which you've expressed you don't -- it looks contradicting. vv SEE BELOW vv_



No. Your trying to manufacture a fallacious argument.
The above is your definition, not mine. I don't really care what you've decided the term means. 

Time Dilation, to me, and I would suggest to most, describes the actual stretching of time. For example, literally having two minutes worth of experience in 1 minute of real time.  

"oh the dream seemed longer than the time it actually took" is a subjective opinion. I have no problem with anyone making such a statement. But it is, for obvious reasons, essentially meaningless. 

"The dream actually was longer than the time it actually took" is bullshit.

You're the one desperately trying to mix up subjectivity and actuallity. I never have. 

Some salient points:


1) We get 2 hours of REM Sleep, in total, in any one night. Time Dilation aside, anyone claiming to have had 8 hours of dream in any one night is Bullshitting. 

2)  The Scientific research demonstrated that dream time passes the same as real time. 

3)  Dreams are difficult to recall in full. They are also disjointed. It is all to obvious how an accurate assesment of time can be flawed. 
This does not however = time dilation. 

4) Lucid dreams of course have additional clarity. Science has show that lucid dreamers assesment of time passing does concur with reality. 

4) Anyone who claims to have experienced 10 years in one night of dreaming is bullshitting. Any variation on the same is bullshit.

----------


## Tricky

Me and a friend talked about this to some extent. I havent tried it, but he told me some techniques he uses and the results. 

This technique is simple. Basically just go into a portal, and expect when you come out on the other side youll be there for (insert amount of time) 

He says he was there for about 6 years. Not literally, but the 30 minutes or so he was there, his mind made it seem like 6 years to him.

This can be useful. (This will sound emo) But if you really dont like your life, you want to escape for a LONG time..Do this. You can get away for a virtual 6 years (wich is really 30 minutes) and be God the entire time.  :smiley: 

No, I havent tried this. So I dont know if it works. Anybody feels like trying it, tell me how it works out for you.

----------


## RedfishBluefish

> Time Dilation, to me, and I would suggest to most, describes the actual stretching of time. For example, literally having two minutes worth of experience in 1 minute of real time.



"Actual stretching of time"? You mean such that if there were some  brainwave recorder which could make a movie of someone's dream, it would occur at 2x speed or whatever, including the dreamer's actions, while the dreamer would report everything occurring at normal speed, yes?

There have been reports from people in explosions, etc., where they were under the influence of large amounts of adrenalin, that everything appeared to happen "like in a dream, at glacial speed". This would appear to correspond to what you call literal time dilation, so I would not be so fast to say it is impossible in dreams, only improbable.

_The Scientific research demonstrated that dream time passes the same as real time._ 
Only in normal conditions, not while attempting time dilation. It certainly does not show that time dilation is impossible, only that it did not occur.

_Anyone who claims to have experienced 10 years in one night of dreaming is bullshitting. Any variation on the same is bullshit._
I agree. But only because it is physically impossible to think ~3.7 thousand times faster than normal (even with the help of adrenalin) without killing yourself.

----------


## moonshine

> There have been reports from people in explosions, etc., where they were under the influence of large amounts of adrenalin, that everything appeared to happen "like in a dream, at glacial speed". This would appear to correspond to what you call literal time dilation, so I would not be so fast to say it is impossible in dreams, only improbable.




There are two stress scenarios:

1) Short sharp shocks. 
http://www.livescience.com/health/071211-time-slow.html

You brain focuses and lays down denser memory information, making you feel that time was longer.

2) Extended Crisis. 
A little adrenaline is good for memory. But once this goes beyond a certain level it has detrimental impacts. 

What happens during times of stress is that certain parts of your brain go dormant and all of your attention is focused on those attributes are most likely to save you - memory not being one of them. 
You're memories of events can be utterly flawed. Survivors have been found to have  fabricated memories. Scientist suggest that this is because we unconsciously try to fill in the gaps and create a coherent narrative. 


In both cases time doesn't actually increase. All that happens is recollections are flawed.

----------


## ChaybaChayba

Before Einstein's analogy of the bending of spacetime, showing that time is relative, time was a complete mystery to science. To this day still nobody fully understands time. Except for moonshine, he already has it all figured out apperently.  "Time can't stretch! It's not a toffee". This guy is brilliant, someone give him the Nobel prize already!

----------


## Reality

I've experimented with this concept before. It's very possible to perceive an extention of time. If you have the intent it's likely to occur. I've tested this using an affirmation based technique in which I repeat "Tonight, my dreams will appear longer upon awakening and recallization". You can certainly trick the mind's perception into believing what's not true. If you're fluent with self hypnosis you may know you can inject false memories in manors such as this. Basically one way of going about this would be using this technique. It may also craft the dream's flow to result differently. You may frequently change scenarios so it seems as if more has happened.

----------


## ClouD

> Wow. Your really throwing everything at the wall with this one.
> I can see why you're called ClouD. I think smoke-screen would me more accurate though...  
> 
> I think I see your problem.
> 
> 
> 
> No. Your trying to manufacture a fallacious argument.
> The above is your definition, not mine. I don't really care what you've decided the term means. 
> ...



Time is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE. Dreams are ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE. One minute cannot be two minutes, simply they are both subjective, sometimes 'one minute' feels longer than a supposed 'one minute', but stretching something subjective is inclusive of the term subjective.

Experience is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE. You just don't get it do you.

_"The dream actually was longer than the time it actually took" is bullshit._
I agree, that's impossible, because time is subjective.
_"oh the dream seemed longer than the time it actually took" is a subjective opinion. I have no problem with anyone making such a statement. But it is, for obvious reasons, essentially meaningless._
Meaningless? Since time is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE, as well as experience is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE, then the subjective opinion is the only thing that can be taken for any evidence. You cannot objectively analyse whether the opinion is true, nor can you analyse whether someone has 'dilated time' within their dream, because it is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE.

Time is ONLY ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE and ENTIRELY RELATIVE. There is nothing else to it, there is no objectivity that can ever be known. That is actuality.

1. I'm not arguing with you on your cynicism, solely because you can only disbelieve or believe with the inexperience. You cannot say for certain yes or no without stupidity, because it is not certain and can never be unless you end up experiencing. You can only truthfully say you don't know.

2. Time is relative, they can't prove shit all. No-one can. I don't give a fuck what some stupid scientist thinks he has proven, when time is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE.

3. Difficulty is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE. Some people find it hard to remember where they left their keys, some people don't. What you are saying is not fact, at the most it is a stupid belief or disbelief. Time dilation cannot be measured, because it is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE.

4. Not all lucid dreams have greater clarity in comparison to normal dreams, there are hundreds on this website that can attest to that. A lucid dreamer's assessment of time is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE. Science can only determine possibility in this regard, and 'supporting evidence' at best, is completely stupid because and individual's assessment is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE.

5. I don't know. I'm not stupid enough to say it's bullshit because since time and experience is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE, then it is impossible to know without the personal experience.

You're right, I'm talking to a wall. You're an imbecile or a troll, I'm not going to continue this *discussion* since you are acting or are actually so ignorant.

----------


## RedfishBluefish

That was a bit aggressive, ClouD...

Sure, you can't actually measure "how long a second feels like" by itself and get a meaningful result, all you are doing is defining some subjective experience of time passing as "one second". But you can define one second in subjective time, then measure again and see if it changes under some conditions. This won't be able to prove that time dilation is impossible, but it will show if it _is_ possible.

----------


## moonshine

> Before Einstein's analogy of the bending of spacetime, showing that time is relative, time was a complete mystery to science. To this day still nobody fully understands time. Except for moonshine, he already has it all figured out apperently.  "Time can't stretch! It's not a toffee". This guy is brilliant, someone give him the Nobel prize already!



The theory of relativity does not apply to an immobile earthbound object. 

No need for a nobel prize. A basic understanding of popular science lets me know that much.

----------


## moonshine

> Time is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE. Dreams are ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE. One minute cannot be two minutes, simply they are both subjective, sometimes 'one minute' feels longer than a supposed 'one minute', but stretching something subjective is inclusive of the term subjective.
> 
> Experience is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE. You just don't get it do you.
> 
> _"The dream actually was longer than the time it actually took" is bullshit._
> I agree, that's impossible, because time is subjective.
> _"oh the dream seemed longer than the time it actually took" is a subjective opinion. I have no problem with anyone making such a statement. But it is, for obvious reasons, essentially meaningless._
> Meaningless? Since time is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE, as well as experience is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE, then the subjective opinion is the only thing that can be taken for any evidence. You cannot objectively analyse whether the opinion is true, nor can you analyse whether someone has 'dilated time' within their dream, because it is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE.
> 
> ...



You can keep stating your theory in as many different ways as you want. 
It doesn't lend it any more credibility. Even using CAPS won't change that.  ::lol:: 

Perception of time can be subjective.
Time itself is measured in discrete quantified common units. Time itself is simply not subjective. 

You may not "give a fuck about what some stupid scientist thinks he's proven," but most rational individuals will accept the credibility of conclusions drawn for laboratory based experiments. 

Certainly, most will accept the same over the ramblings of a seething apoplectic poster who brands another an  "imbecile" a "troll" or "ignorant" simply because they do not agree.

----------


## The Cusp

> 1) We get 2 hours of REM Sleep, in total, in any one night. Time Dilation aside, anyone claiming to have had 8 hours of dream in any one night is Bullshitting.



Dreaming is NOT limited to the REM phase.  That's just an outdated myth.  You dream from the moment you fall asleep to the moment you wake.

----------


## Tricky

Cusp: I always noticed that, actually. I always read you can only dream while in REM. But almost every time I fall asleep in school, I dream. That explains it.

----------


## Sora

I've already though about what time is and I've come with the conclusion that this is all about how about how fast you're able to register informations. I noticed that when I was Drunk or High (yeah I WAS smoking drugs).

When I was Drunk time was passing WAAAAAAY faster than my normal being. That's probably why people forget about their night if they are too much drunk, their brains are off the track and no more informations are able to be stored. But when I was high a minute seemed to be like 10, my brain work at very high speed these time. The only example which come to my mind is when I was listening music, I was closing my eyes and letting the music "control" my mind and a single song could last forever in my mind. And while High I've noticed a thing that really amazed me, I could analyze each images that my eyes were taking, it was like a First person shooter which has a very low Frame Rate.

Maybe I'm crazy.

----------


## Techno

> You may not "give a fuck about what some stupid scientist thinks he's proven," but most rational individuals will accept the credibility of conclusions drawn for laboratory based experiments.



How could one even experiment with the natural force of time in a laboratory?  :tongue2: 

EDIT: Oops, nevermind.

----------


## ClouD

> That was a bit aggressive, ClouD...
> 
> Sure, you can't actually measure "how long a second feels like" by itself and get a meaningful result, all you are doing is defining some subjective experience of time passing as "one second". But you can define one second in subjective time, then measure again and see if it changes under some conditions. This won't be able to prove that time dilation is impossible, but it will show if it _is_ possible.



I agree, I am actually _that_ pissed off at the stupidity though.
The complete ignorance and pseudo knowledge of something not possibly certain.

I'm not bothering any more, anyone with any intelligence wouldn't be so retarded. I wouldn't have minded a discussion on the definition of time dilation or the possibility of objectivity in some regard to actually include subjectivity, but the insulting and arrogant way he has continued gives way to T3H RAEG.

So that's it, I'm out, and conclude that time dilation seems silly, dilation of time would rely only on subjective interpretation of the individual within the dream so 'dilation' (subjectively) is constantly flux. And the way moonshine has defined time dilation is entirely fallacious, time dilation cannot be objective, two =/= one.

----------


## RedfishBluefish

Ok, ClouD, fair enough  :tongue2: .

moonshine: is there any difference between events outside the brain occurring at 1/2x speed, and events inside the brain occurring at 2x speed? Would either qualify as practically useful "time dilation"?

----------


## ChaybaChayba

> The theory of relativity does not apply to an immobile earthbound object. 
> 
> No need for a nobel prize. A basic understanding of popular science lets me know that much.







> *Gravitational Time Dilation*
> 
> Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity predicted that time does not flow at a fixed rate: moving clocks appear to tick more slowly relative to their stationary counterparts. But this effect only becomes really significant at very high velocities that app roach the speed of light.
> 
> When "generalized" to include gravitation, the equations of relativity predict that gravity, or the curvature of spacetime by matter, not only stretches or shrinks distances (depending on their direction with respect to the gravitational field) but also w ill appear to slow down or "dilate" the flow of time.
> 
> In most circumstances in the universe, such time dilation is miniscule, but it can become very significant when spacetime is curved by a massive object such as a black hole. For example, an observer far from a black hole would observe time passing extremely slowly for an astronaut falling through the hole's boundary. In fact, the distant observer would never see the hapless victim actually fall in. His or her time, as measured by the observer, would appear to stand still. The slowing of time near a very simple black hole has been simulated on supercomputers at NCSA and visualized in a computer-generated animation.



So tell me moonshine, why are you so stubbornly spreading misinformation? Time dilation is a well known fact, what's next, you're going to claim the earth is actually flat?  ::lol::

----------


## moonshine

> Dreaming is NOT limited to the REM phase.  That's just an outdated myth.  You dream from the moment you fall asleep to the moment you wake.



True and false. 

It is now understood that people do "dream" during NREM. The jurys still out on whether this is 100&#37; of the time and in all sleep stages. 

But NREM dreams are understood to be very different from REM dreams. 
They are more like our thoughts during the day. We can think or visualise.(ever felt like you've been awake all night wrestling with a problem?)
But they are quite different from REM dreams where we actually inhabit the dreams in a 3D virtual world. This is why REM ATONIA (sleep paralysis) only kicks in during REM. During NREM you're not wandering around.





> So tell me moonshine, why are you so stubbornly spreading misinformation? Time dilation is a well known fact, what's next, you're going to claim the earth is actually flat?



 ::lol::  Funny man. But hardly relevant. 

1) Einsteins dilation kicks in when you're zipping around the universe at near light speeds. I don't remember ClouD telling me about his space ship.  :wink2: 

2) To some one having a nap in a space ship travelling at light speed, the time within the ship and the time in their brains (which is in the space ship) are constant. Making it a moot point.





> I agree, I am actually _that_ pissed off at the stupidity though.
> The complete ignorance and pseudo knowledge of something not possibly certain.
> 
> I'm not bothering any more, anyone with any intelligence wouldn't be so retarded. I wouldn't have minded a discussion on the definition of time dilation or the possibility of objectivity in some regard to actually include subjectivity, but the insulting and arrogant way he has continued gives way to T3H RAEG.



All criticisms which could (and really should) be directed at your good self Cloud.





> So that's it, I'm out, and conclude that time dilation seems silly, dilation of time would rely only on subjective interpretation of the individual within the dream so 'dilation' (subjectively) is constantly flux. And the way moonshine has defined time dilation is entirely fallacious, time dilation cannot be objective, two =/= one.



No. My definition is accurate, logical, and post importantly supported by scientific evidence (which conveniently you apparently "don't give a fuck about") some of which I have been good enough to post.





> How could one even experiment with the natural force of time in a laboratory? 
> 
> EDIT: Oops, nevermind.



 ::lol::  You were thinking "clock" weren't you.

----------


## The Cusp

> It is now understood that people do "dream" during NREM. The jurys still out on whether this is 100% of the time and in all sleep stages.



Look, I've studied my dreams and other people's dreams for over 15 years now.  My knowledge of dreaming far exceed the current understand of dreams by science.  Science may do a study of other people for a couple of months and then call it quits.  I have 15 years of non-stop first hand experience.

Keep a dream journal for a few years and you can verify what I'm saying for yourself.





> But NREM dreams are understood to be very different from REM dreams. 
> They are more like our thoughts during the day. We can think or visualise.(ever felt like you've been awake all night wrestling with a problem?)
> But they are quite different from REM dreams where we actually inhabit the dreams in a 3D virtual world. This is why REM ATONIA (sleep paralysis) only kicks in during REM. During NREM you're not wandering around.



Can you provide a link that backs that up?  Because everything I'm finding online suggests that NREM dreams are full fledged dreams where you do in fact walk around in a real environment.

----------


## moonshine

http://learnmem.cshlp.org/content/11/6/671.full





> By simply changing the question asked of awakened subjects from Did you dream? to Did you experience any mental content?, Foulkes was able to show a far higher percentage of dream reports from NREM stages than original studies had suggested. These dream reports after NREM awakenings led Foulkes and others to conclude that the stream of consciousness never ceases during sleep and that the brain engages in cognitive activity of some sort during all sleep stages (Antrobus 1990).



That said, the argument on Time Dilation hardly hinges on the REM point. 


If someone genuinely believes in Time Dilation, then feel free to start up a thread in Beyond Dreaming.

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## RedfishBluefish

> moonshine: is there any difference between events outside the brain occurring at 1/2x speed, and events inside the brain occurring at 2x speed? Would either qualify as practically useful "time dilation"?



Ooh, ooh, ooh, answer to me!
By the way the answers are "probably no" and "yes". "Probably no" thanks to Einstein's theory that time is relative. The implication is that all you have to do is speed up your thinking a bit to make that happen  :tongue2: .

Brain exploding realization: doesn't *inverse* time dilation happen all the time, in the "spaces between dreams"?

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## moonshine

> Brain exploding realization: doesn't *inverse* time dilation happen all the time, in the "spaces between dreams"?



More likely they should be found in a space in "beyond dreaming." :tongue2:

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## marcher22

> Me and a friend talked about this to some extent. I havent tried it, but he told me some techniques he uses and the results. 
> 
> This technique is simple. Basically just go into a portal, and expect when you come out on the other side youll be there for (insert amount of time) 
> 
> He says he was there for about 6 years. Not literally, but the 30 minutes or so he was there, his mind made it seem like 6 years to him.
> 
> This can be useful. (This will sound emo) But if you really dont like your life, you want to escape for a LONG time..Do this. You can get away for a virtual 6 years (wich is really 30 minutes) and be God the entire time. 
> 
> No, I havent tried this. So I dont know if it works. Anybody feels like trying it, tell me how it works out for you.



I will try this out but ill maybe make time feel like 1 month has gone by as i'm not much of an experienced LDer. 

Can you clarify a bit more?

Do i just like summon some sort of portal ( maybe like a door i walk through). Then say "when i walk in, 30 minutes will feel like 1 month?"  and then walk through the door? And just do everything like a would " normally " do in a lucid dream ( i.e many of my dream goals listed below). So basically i'll have more time to finish all the tasks?

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## RedfishBluefish

> More likely they should be found in a space in "beyond dreaming."



Bah! Beyond dreaming is for fools, and tinfoil hat wearers.

Seriously is it that much to believe that people won't always experience time in a linear manner? When we are unconscious I wouldn't expect us to actually experience X hours of unconsciousness in X hours. No, it just skips over...

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## oniman7

> Actually, research has found that in most cases time in a lucid dream corresponds to actual time, and non-lucid dreams usually have no connection to actual time. So what seems like 15 minutes in a lucid dream is usually about 15 minutes. However, there is evidence that sometimes lucid dreams have alternate times, just like non-lucid dreams. So time dilation is probably possible.



This is not always true. I read somewhere (maybe even on this website) of some extreme lucid dreams. Extreme to the point that months would pass by in the dream, while they were asleep for only 8-10 hours. It is possibly to consciously dilate time, even while awake. However, it is nowhere near the effect that people desire. For instance, riding in a car you can pick out individual trees and focus on them (here in Florida, almost every road is surrounded either by trees, or by the taller grass you get near the beach. I see more trees). Also, try watching a leaky faucet. Though it drips at a semi-regular speed, you can make the water seem as though it is dripping more often or less often. If you can do it in real life, you can do it in a dream. It's all a matter of practice. Being that I'm younger than most people on the forum, I think I may have a slight advantage here. While you're younger (I'd actually wager until your 20's, even) you're more open to different viewpoints. This also does wonderful things for your perception.

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## moonshine

> This is not always true. I read somewhere (maybe even on this website) of some extreme lucid dreams. Extreme to the point that months would pass by in the dream, while they were asleep for only 8-10 hours.




On this website you can also read about astral travelling, dreamwalkers, spirit guides, encounters with dream demons, elf and pixies. 

Just sayin'

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## oniman7

That's true, but you have to take everything that's said on this website with a grain of salt. For example, I've had 18 lucids in about 4 months. Nobody has any way of knowing if I have, if this person really had SP, if they really had been in a dream for what felt like weeks or months. You just have to look at the evidence and think for yourself.

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## moonshine

Of course. But by the same token you should take account of all evidence, be it personal experience, anecdotal, scientific, experimental, theoretical etc.

Its precisely the same which leads me to conclude the time dilation, especially dreams that last weeks to months, are BS.

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## ChaybaChayba

> Of course. But by the same token you should take account of all evidence, be it personal experience, anecdotal, scientific, experimental, theoretical etc.
> 
> Its precisely the same which leads me to conclude the time dilation, especially dreams that last weeks to months, are BS.



Time dilation is a skill. You are simply a lucid dreaming noob. Get a clue already and get over yourself. "I can't do it, so nobody can".. please.. not everybody is a lying cunt like you. How many lucids do you have a night? Can you go into a lucid anytime you want? Until then, don't talk like you're the master.

Nikola Tesla, Aldous Huxley, Albert Einstein, etc, they were the lucid dreaming masters, they have put lucid dreaming and time dilation to a good use! Look at the world, look at their works! How can you still deny to potential and claim it's a lie after all the wonders they have brought to humankind?

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## oniman7

That was quite a bit uncalled for. It's people like you who get threads locked. Anyways, I agree with what ChabyaChabya is trying to say. But just because Tesla, Einstein, and all the others were geniuses doesn't mean they were lucid dream masters.... or did I miss something here?  ::?:

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## ChaybaChayba

Yeah you did, I forgot to mention that if you would read their autobiography you would see they used lucid dreaming for their inventions. They all claimed that is the secret behind their genius. This guy moonshine is claiming that it us bullshit however..  who do you believe, these geniuses or moonshine?

What most people don't understand is that monkeyboys like moonshine simply talk out of their ass. Moonshine has never attempted time dilation, yet he is spamming this entire thread with his disbelief. What is the point arguing if you refuse to try it out yourself first?

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## moonshine

> Time dilation is a skill. You are simply a lucid dreaming noob. Get a clue already and get over yourself. "I can't do it, so nobody can".. please.. not everybody is a lying cunt like you. How many lucids do you have a night? Can you go into a lucid anytime you want? Until then, don't talk like you're the master.
> 
> Nikola Tesla, Aldous Huxley, Albert Einstein, etc, they were the lucid dreaming masters, they have put lucid dreaming and time dilation to a good use! Look at the world, look at their works! How can you still deny to potential and claim it's a lie after all the wonders they have brought to humankind?



Are you therefore claiming you have achieved time Dilation then CC? Have you lived weeks/months in minutes? 
Do please be clear.

Foaming rage and vague references to Einstein does not make a good counter argument.

And I'm a lying cunt am I? Whats your problem. Really? 





> Haha yeah funny and frustrating. For some reason, in todays societys, stupidity and ignorance rules. Look at this forum for the perfect example, it's called Beyond Dreaming and seen as the garbage dump of dreamviews while it should be called Advanced Dreaming. These blind admins really need to wake up already and see that they are blocking the progress of the entire community by systematically moving all advanced dreaming topics right into this forum. Good job.



Ah.  ::lol::

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## moonshine

> Look, I've studied my dreams and other people's dreams for over 15 years now.  My knowledge of dreaming far exceed the current understand of dreams by science.  Science may do a study of other people for a couple of months and then call it quits.  I have 15 years of non-stop first hand experience.
> 
> Keep a dream journal for a few years and you can verify what I'm saying for yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you provide a link that backs that up?  Because everything I'm finding online suggests that NREM dreams are full fledged dreams where you do in fact walk around in a real environment.








> Do dreams occour only in rem sleep, or might we dream all night long? The Idea that dreaming is exclusively linked to REM Sleep has been overturned. 
> A lot depends however on what is meant by "dream". We tend to associate the word with bizzare and visually rich narrative dreams of REM sleep, in contrast to the more mundane thought processes of waking consciousness. When people are woken from NREM sleep and asked if they are dreaming , they reply yes only on about 7-8&#37; for occasions. However, if instead they are asked wether they were thinking about anything, they say yes far more often. In fact people woken from NREM sleep report  some form of mental activity on 40-60% of occasions.
> 
> The "dreams" that occour during NREM sleep are different. They are generally less vivid, less surreal, less unpleasant and less "dream-like" than classic dreams. They lack bizarre story lines, the strong emotions the strong emotions and intense imagery. In fact they are more like conventional waking thoughts or fragments of ideas. NREM dreams are also shorter and less complex than REM dreams".



Counting Sheep: The Science and pleasures of Sleep and Dreams. Paul Martin. 

There's three pages of scientific references to the chapter this text quotes.

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## ChaybaChayba

> Are you therefore claiming you have achieved time Dilation then CC? Have you lived weeks/months in minutes? 
> Do please be clear.
> 
> Foaming rage and vague references to Einstein does not make a good counter argument.
> 
> And I'm a lying cunt am I? Whats your problem. Really?



What's my problem? You are. If you refuse to practise, don't come in here and spread your bullshit theories. You are all talk, pure lazyness. Why do you insist on spreading your stupidity? You're like a dog peeing everywhere to mark it's territory. This threads smells of your piss.

Anyone who has ever attempted a WILD and has looked a clock during a failed attempt has experienced mild to extreme time dilation. As you claim time dilation is bullshit, it is obvious that you are a total lucid dreaming noob and most likely never have even attempted a WILD! I don't blame you for having zero experience, I do blame you for being extremly lazy and refusing to experiment and simply see for yourself. All this discussion can be avoided by experimenting.

Am I claiming I have achieved time dilation? Yeah fucking duh. Shit, you're slow. Seems like time dilation works the other way around for you.

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## mrdeano

Putting all the arguments aside.

The dreamer can dilate time, by making the events in the dream a touch faster.
I am sure you could train your mind to work like that.

As for bending time and space. that's a load of none sense (Y)

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## moonshine

> What's my problem? You are. If you refuse to practise, don't come in here and spread your bullshit theories. You are all talk, pure lazyness. Why do you insist on spreading your stupidity? You're like a dog peeing everywhere to mark it's territory. This threads smells of your piss.
> 
> Anyone who has ever attempted a WILD and has looked a clock during a failed attempt has experienced mild to extreme time dilation. As you claim time dilation is bullshit, it is obvious that you are a total lucid dreaming noob and most likely never have even attempted a WILD! I don't blame you for having zero experience, I do blame you for being extremly lazy and refusing to experiment and simply see for yourself. All this discussion can be avoided by experimenting.
> 
> Am I claiming I have achieved time dilation? Yeah fucking duh. Shit, you're slow. Seems like time dilation works the other way around for you.



Charmed I'm sure  ::lol:: 

Its times like these when I like to ask myself "What Would Dawkins Do?". 

Little hint: Losing track of time, having flawed memories or simply being mistaken really isn't the same thing as "time dilation" is it?

As to my personal experience, maybe you should look before you leap. 
cough-sig-cough  ::D: 

Request a MOD dumps this thread to beyond dreaming and we're done. 
You can have your playpen all to yourself.

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## no-Name

Chayba, Moon, quiet down. DV is not your flamewar territory. Take it to PM, ED, or somewhere else. This thread is not going to be moved to beyond dreaming, but it might be locked if you guys keep it up.

Quiet down.

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## bcomp

Quick though here. Wouldn't it be possible that since your brain has to process less input while asleep, it might be able to perceive faster in dreams, thus making a literal amount of time seem longer? Sort of like when you're in a dangerous or emotional situation, which might only last a few seconds, but it feels like an eternity.

As far as I know, there isn't a speed limit on the human mind. Or at least on the thoughts in it.

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## ChaybaChayba

Yeah of course it's possible. It has already been proven. This guy can even dream while awake, using time dilation to do calculation faster than a calculator. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlbVsgbq3dc

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## moonshine

Rigggggggght. 

So if a guy runs 1 mile in 6 minutes, then the next day runs 1 mile in 5 minutes has he dilated time or simply ran faster?

Are the latest intel chips mini-time machines?

Sigh.

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## really

Moonshine, remember that the science of time dilation (in the way you mentioned it), is irrelevant in this forum. This is about dreams and dream control, it is not about the waking reality. As it has been said enough, time, dreams and experience are entirely subjective. One dream can be perceived as an hour, just while another is perceived as five minutes. There is no way to prove the actual "dream length", since it is intangible, and thus there are no grounds to call another's dream "bullshit."

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## ChaybaChayba

> Rigggggggght. 
> 
> So if a guy runs 1 mile in 6 minutes, then the next day runs 1 mile in 5 minutes has he dilated time or simply ran faster?
> 
> Are the latest intel chips mini-time machines?
> 
> Sigh.



Lolol. Here you are, claiming time dilation doesn't exist while you don't even understand the concept of time. Please try to explain the concept of time and make us all laugh really hard.  Go go go  ::D:

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## moonshine

> Lolol. Here you are, claiming time dilation doesn't exist while you don't even understand the concept of time. Please try to explain the concept of time and make us all laugh really hard.  Go go go



In point of fact I can claim time dilation doesn't exist precisely because I understand the concept of time.

You on the other hand seem to be struggling.





> Moonshine, remember that the science of time dilation (in the way you mentioned it), is irrelevant in this forum. This is about dreams and dream control, it is not about the waking reality. As it has been said enough, time, dreams and experience are entirely subjective. One dream can be perceived as an hour, just while another is perceived as five minutes. There is no way to prove the actual "dream length", since it is intangible, and thus there are no grounds to call another's dream "bullshit."



Not strictly true. We've got posters who interpret time dilation as being flawed memories and/or skipped dream scenes, which is fair enough.
Though arguably "Time Dilation" is an inaccurate term.  

Then you have moon-units who genuinely believe they can extend time in dreams i.e. make a 1 hour dream last 2 hours....or as some nuts claim weeks/months. Which is what I claim to be BS. 

Dream time has indeed been proven.
Lucid dreamers have counted time in their dreams by moving their eyes. 
Scientists have timed these eye movements and determined that they do correspond with reality. 

Also, and rather more simply, they have been woken and asked how long they think their dream lasted...assesments which generally correspond well to reality.

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## ChaybaChayba

> In point of fact I can claim time dilation doesn't exist precisely because I understand the concept of time.
> 
> You on the other hand seem to be struggling.



Saying you understand the concept of time does not explain the concept of time. Thanks for proving my point and making me laugh really hard.  ::lol:: 

Edit: You fail to realize, it is both possible to dream in real time, and to dilate time. You seem to be confused by experiments which show dream time is the same as real time, but there have not been any experiments where people have tried to dilate time on purpose. This is what this thread is about. Time dilation, not normal dream time. Many people among us, including me, have experimented with time dilation, and we are here to tell you that these experiments were successfull. Lucid dreaming is a new field in science, and we are the pioneers, not the scientists.

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## moonshine

http://amos.indiana.edu/library/scripts/dreamtime.html




> many people believe that hours' worth of events and activities can be dreamed about in a matter seconds. Despite this common belief about how we dream, time in dreams actually is not compressed. If you dream of an activity that would take five minutes in waking life, you probably dream about it for a full five minutes.  
> 
> Dream and sleep researcher William Dement conducted two studies that demonstrated that dream time was similar to real time. Because dreamers' eyes move under their eyelids very rapidly while they are dreaming, Dement was able to monitor sleepers and record the length of their dreams by observing their rapid eye movement. 
> 
> After recording this information, Dement would wake dreamers and have them write down a description of their most recent dream. He assumed that longer dreams would take more words to describe than shorter ones. When he compared the number of words in each dream report with the number of minutes the dream had occurred, he found that the longer the dream, the more words the dreamer used to describe it. 
> 
> In another related experiment, Dement woke sleepers while they were dreaming and asked them how long they perceived their most recent dream had taken. Eighty-three percent of the time they perceived correctly whether their dreams had been going on for a long time or for a short time. With these experiments, Dement concluded that time in dreams is nearly identical to time in waking life. 
> 
> So the next time in your dreams you slay a dragon or fly from your house to your workplace, the amount of time it seemed to take is probably just about how long it actually took to dream it.



-




> Saying you understand the concept of time does not explain the concept of time. Thanks for proving my point and making me laugh really hard.



What point would that be? 
That asking amorphous pretentious questions can serve as a smokescreen?

Looks like you scored a toofer:-
http://www.johntreed.com/debate.html





> intellectually-dishonest debate tactics:
> Changing the subject: debater is losing so he tries to redirect the attention of the audience to another subject area where he thinks he can look better relative to the person he is debating 
> 
> Theatrical fake laughter or sighs: This is wordless but it says what you just said is so ridiculously wrong that we must laugh at it.  It is intellectually dishonest and devoid of any intelligence, facts, or logic.



How about you try and explain the "concept of time" champ, then we'll talk  ::roll::

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## ChaybaChayba

That is dream time. Not lucid dream time. Big difference. If you have control over your dream, you can dilate time easily.





> How about you try and explain the "concept of time" champ, then we'll talk



Hahaha, this is too funny. You are asking me to explain you the concept of time because you don't understand time but still you claim time dilation is bullshit?!  ::lol:: 

It's like not understanding mathematics but claiming that Einsteins formula of e=mc&#178; is bullshit. This is how ridiclous this conversation is. Keep on going tho, it's getting funnier by the minute.

edit: Btw, sorry for making fun of you, but someone has to defend the truth. Nothing personal.

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## moonshine

So you can't define it then? Interesting.

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## ChaybaChayba

Funny isn't, even with the entire knowledge of the internet and the power of google at your fingers, you still can't explain the concept of time.  ::lol::

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## really

> Not strictly true. We've got posters who interpret time dilation as being flawed memories and/or skipped dream scenes, which is fair enough.
> Though arguably "Time Dilation" is an inaccurate term.



Perhaps this is the point? Similarly, if dreams do not process every conceivable kind of possibility in the "waking reality", since it is in a different dimension altogether, then it can be easily said that there is no solid relationship between dreams and reality, hence time dilation. If you think people have been perceiving time differently than one another as to warp time-and-space (without reaching _c_) than you're just being a dork. We are speaking of dreams; what one might call "unreality".





> Then you have moon-units who genuinely believe they can extend time in dreams i.e. make a 1 hour dream last 2 hours....or as some nuts claim weeks/months. Which is what I claim to be BS. 
> 
> Dream time has indeed been proven.
> Lucid dreamers have counted time in their dreams by moving their eyes. 
> Scientists have timed these eye movements and determined that they do correspond with reality. 
> 
> Also, and rather more simply, they have been woken and asked how long they think their dream lasted...assesments which generally correspond well to reality.



We are talking about _perceived_ time; _dream time_. The perceived duration cannot be measured, and that is the point. What you have said so far doesn't sound very convincing, unless you have any links.

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## RedfishBluefish

Time is relative. Therefore... increase the speed of the brain's processing. This is equivalent to reducing the speed of everything else outside the brain, thus "time dilation".

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## moonshine

> Funny isn't, even with the entire knowledge of the internet and the power of google at your fingers, you still can't explain the concept of time.



Still unable to answer your own question CC? 
Clearly you feel you have made some earth shattering point.
Though equally clearly, you're unable to lucidly explain the same. 

Can't see the point myself, why is why I simply choose not to buy into the diversionary escapades of a disgruntled tweener. 

Maybe when you contribute something - anything - beyond foot-stamping and holding your breath this thread will get interesting again.





> Time is relative. Therefore... increase the speed of the brain's processing. This is equivalent to reducing the speed of everything else outside the brain, thus "time dilation".



Time is a constant at any one point. Time is only relative between two points, when one point is travelling at near light speeds.

I understand what you're getting at generally. Like the Matrix bullet time yeah? 

But even assuming that the brain, CPU processor metaphor is appropriate its a tenuous and unsubstantiated theory.

Even at the basic levels. How do you imagine your brain can "process" so much faster when sleeping? I would have though that the efforts involved in creating a virtual 3D would be significantly greater. 

Lets not forget that the brain is already quite busy during REM sleep, doing what ever it needs to do. Current theory is that its rewiring and filtering memories. Ever defragged your hard-drive? How does that effect your CPU speed. 

These are just simple throwaway arguments. IMO they give far to too much undeserved credence to the untested processor analogy. 

People used to imagine that time slowed during an accident. 
Though this has been proven by science to be incorrect. 

People used to to imagine that they experiences full dreams in the few seconds it took them to wake up. Which again has been proven by science to be incorrect.

Can you please stop double/triple posting, thank you.

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## RedfishBluefish

> Time is a constant at any one point. Time is only relative between two points, when one point is travelling at near light speeds.
> 
> I understand what you're getting at generally. Like the Matrix bullet time yeah? 
> 
> But even assuming that the brain, CPU processor metaphor is appropriate its a tenuous and unsubstantiated theory.
> 
> Even at the basic levels. How do you imagine your brain can "process" so much faster when sleeping? I would have though that the efforts involved in creating a virtual 3D would be significantly greater.



I _do not_ believe it is possible to process much faster when sleeping (maybe only slightly, even if), but that does not invalidate the CPU metaphor. So I think the problem with time dilation is not _a theoretical_ problem, only a _practical_ problem. Which I guess is the only point I was trying to make  :tongue2: . I think 2 hours in 10 minutes is BS also.

----------


## bcomp

> Rigggggggght. 
> 
> So if a guy runs 1 mile in 6 minutes, then the next day runs 1 mile in 5 minutes has he dilated time or simply ran faster?
> 
> Are the latest intel chips mini-time machines?
> 
> Sigh.



wait wait, there. that's different because, while the guy's running faster, his perception of time is constant.

if his mind was _thinking_ faster, and thus his perception of time was changed, then, to the guy, time would appear to be dilated. 

do though note that during time dilation (at least my understanding of it) it's only your sense of time that changes, not time itself.

----------


## bcomp

> I _do not_ believe it is possible to process much faster when sleeping (maybe only slightly, even if), but that does not invalidate the CPU metaphor. So I think the problem with time dilation is not _a theoretical_ problem, only a _practical_ problem. Which I guess is the only point I was trying to make . I think 2 hours in 10 minutes is BS also.



But what if we're not using our 'CPU' to it's full capacity on a daily basis? We do only use, on average, less than 10% of our brains at any given time.

Also, we really can only understand time by seeing other things change - like a clock ticking or the sun moving - so if those things change, then so does the way we see time. Maybe, since we're cut off from outside stimulus when we're dreaming, time can seem like anything we want, even though everything's physically taking the same amount of time.

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## moonshine

[QUOTE=bcomp;1083196]But what if we're not using our 'CPU' to it's full capacity on a daily basis? We do only use, on average, less than 10% of our brains at any given time.QUOTE]

Hiya Bcomp.

Actually, thats an old meme which has now thoroughly been discredited.
We pretty much use most of our brain most of the time. Turns out we're pretty efficient little machines. 






> Also, we really can only understand time by seeing other things change - like a clock ticking or the sun moving - so if those things change, then so does the way we see time. Maybe, since we're cut off from outside stimulus when we're dreaming, time can seem like anything we want, even though everything's physically taking the same amount of time.



I think I agree with you. Dreams are slippery beasts (especially when your not lucid) and its difficult to truly appreciate how much time has passed. 
So yeah, I'm sure they can "seem" longer, or shorter, (especially depending whether not your dream is exciting or boring) but really this boils down to whats essentially a flawed or inaccurate assesment. 

Flawed assesment would be an accurate description. 
"Time Dilation", implying as it does the literal stretching of time really has no relevance. 

Thats my take on it anyway.

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## ChaybaChayba

Ok moonshine, you are correct, time dilation doesn't exist, it's bullshit, we all agree with you. Will you shut up now?

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## moonshine

> Ok moonshine, you are correct, time dilation doesn't exist, it's bullshit, we all agree with you. Will you shut up now?



Seriously. Grow up.

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## ChaybaChayba

Seriously. Shut up.

There really is no point in saying something is bullshit 293090329 times. We got it the first time.

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## markman

i'm not a mod but i am mad becuase I thouhgt this was a tutorial on how to dialate time, not "look at moonshine discredit many theories". Stay on topic.  :Sad:

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## moonshine

> Seriously. Shut up.
> 
> There really is no point in saying something is bullshit 293090329 times. We got it the first time.



There's that "we" again.  ::roll:: 
I've told you a gazillion times that you shouldn't exaggerate.

Still, don't be mad Chabs. If everyone joined your cult, it wouldn't be a cult, would it?

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## moonshine

> i'm not a mod but i am mad becuase I thouhgt this was a tutorial on how to dialate time, not "look at moonshine discredit many theories". Stay on topic.



For tutorials on Time Dilation and various other fun times feel free to check out the beyond dreaming section.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...light=dilation
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...light=dilation
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...light=dilation

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## oniman7

[QUOTE=moonshine;1083250]



> But what if we're not using our 'CPU' to it's full capacity on a daily basis? We do only use, on average, less than 10% of our brains at any given time.QUOTE]
> 
> Hiya Bcomp.
> 
> Actually, thats an old meme which has now thoroughly been discredited.
> We pretty much use most of our brain most of the time. Turns out we're pretty efficient little machines. 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This isn't quite true. We do use most of our brains. However, we don't use it all at once. The common accepted is now 12-20% at once.


On another note, Time Dilation is all relevant. I started falling asleep in the car the other day, and had a deep though/dreaming period that lasted for about 5 seconds ( drove about 100 feet in the car ). However, it felt like almost a minute.

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## no-Name

> Seriously. Grow up.







> Seriously. Shut up.
> 
> There really is no point in saying something is bullshit 293090329 times. We got it the first time.



Rude and unneeded, thread locked, see my previous warning for why~

Time is subjective, and interpretive.

 :lock: 






> Chayba, Moon, quiet down. DV is not your flamewar territory. Take it to PM, ED, or somewhere else. This thread is not going to be moved to beyond dreaming, but it might be locked if you guys keep it up.
> 
> Quiet down.

----------

