# Lucid Dreaming > Lucid Experiences >  >  Is It Right To Kill Dc

## becomingagodo

Now reading the last post it got me thinking about moral rights in dream and is their any in reason. Well let deal with violance now if you kill or beat a DC is this ok. To me it like playing a video game if you kill a person on a video game he doesnt feel pain and is not alive so wouldnt that logic transfer into dreams as well. 
Their is a point where it can get unreasonable like just doing lucid dreams to kill DC. To date i have only killed fiften DC and these were ninja and i had a sword e.t.c. You could argue like violent video that violance in lucid dream make you more violate but then their no evidence to support the video claim. I cant see anything bad coming from killing DC character. Thoughts anyone

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## Marvo

Killing a DC is like killing a video-game-character. They are both just electric impulses, and can both be revived at command. Killing a DC is somewhat more real though, and it might hurt your feelings, to kill a DC, since it&#39;s so real. It also depends how you kill the DC. If you go to a particular DC, bring a knife, and start to stab him/her, the horrified face of the suffering DC will probably stay in your face for a while, but if you blow up 1000 DCs with a nuclear-bomb, it&#39;s just comedy-gold&#33;

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## legbuh

I killed about 6 last night with an automatic gun.  I gained lucidity late in the dream and it&#39;s the only thing I could think of doing.. lol..  and a few of the DCs were good friends... LOL&#33;  Woops&#33;

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## JPotter

> Now reading the last post it got me thinking about moral rights in dream and is their any in reason. Well let deal with violance now if you kill or beat a DC is this ok. To me it like playing a video game if you kill a person on a video game he doesnt feel pain and is not alive so wouldnt that logic transfer into dreams as well. 
> Their is a point where it can get unreasonable like just doing lucid dreams to kill DC. To date i have only killed fiften DC and these were ninja and i had a sword e.t.c. You could argue like violent video that violance in lucid dream make you more violate but then their no evidence to support the video claim. I cant see anything bad coming from killing DC character. Thoughts anyone
> [/b]



I think I read the post you were talking about.  I don&#39;t see a problem with it - the video game reference is perfect.  You know it isn&#39;t real.

If fact, having to fight was how I became lucid.  I always had terrible nightmares as a kid.  Eventually I stopped running and began turning and fighting.  Then one day, I was able to shoot lighting from my fingers, make weapons appear in my hands, or whatever by will.  I remember thinking "holy sh*t, I&#39;m dreaming." 

Some of my favorite LDs are nightmares that turn lucid.  I realize I can&#39;t be hurt and start kicking some a&#036;&#036;   ::evil::  

My favorite new trick the ability to fight like Neo from the Matrix movies.  I&#39;m moving as fast as him, flying around, kicking anybodies a&#036;&#036;.  Its awesome.

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## ♥Mark

To determine if killing a DC is morally incorrect, we must examine what it means to kill. Seems an obvious question, I know, but think about it for a moment. To kill someone is to rob them of their lives. Now we must ask ourselves, what makes a DC different from a real person?

Simple. A DC exists only as perceptions. I tend to think that real people are something more than the light that I see and sound that I hear. They have thoughts, feelings, hopes and families. When a DC is killed, nothing is lost.

However, I do understand why some chose not to kill. Dreams are the perfect proving grounds to test one&#39;s moral integrity. After all, if you can resist an impulse despite any conceivable repercussions, then you have demonstrated considerable self control. And if you screw up, hey, no harm done.

But to say that killing a DC is immoral just doesn&#39;t make sense.

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## DarkMind

> Now reading the last post it got me thinking about moral rights in dream and is their any in reason. Well let deal with violance now if you kill or beat a DC is this ok. To me it like playing a video game if you kill a person on a video game he doesnt feel pain and is not alive so wouldnt that logic transfer into dreams as well. 
> Their is a point where it can get unreasonable like just doing lucid dreams to kill DC. To date i have only killed fiften DC and these were ninja and i had a sword e.t.c. You could argue like violent video that violance in lucid dream make you more violate but then their no evidence to support the video claim. I cant see anything bad coming from killing DC character. Thoughts anyone
> [/b]




What I think is that, if one wants to live a spiritual life, one should not kill Dream Characters if possible. The short answer I can give you is : Karma (Cause and Effect).

Another way of looking at it is: dreams come from your subconscious/unconscious. If you perpetuate unskillful acts (or acts which are not good) in dreams, you are influencing your subconscious/unconscious in an undesirable direction.

In the long run, this won&#39;t be good for you. According to Tibetan Book of Dead, there is the Bardo or Intermediate State after death, when one has the ability to go to a better or worse rebirth (or even to become Enlightened). If your subconscious/unconscious is heavy with Karmic debts (or wrong-doings), it is more difficult to get a desirable outcome in the Bardo state.

One can take rebirth in a heavenly realm (god realm), human realm, Asura realm (jealous demi-god or titan realm), animal realm, hungry ghost realm or hell realm. (from Tibetan Buddhist wheel of life and death)

It has been said that concerning good and bad deeds, it is not so much about reward and punishment, but rather Cause and Effect. 

All this is just what I think. I hope it helps.

Karuna (Compassion)

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## Poison Apple

Hmm... I think it is ok, you are not hurting anyone. But  I see your point of dreams feeling real and effecting your emotions. Videogames can be just... videogames. I belive they can make people more violent. I think that in dreams it is your motive for killing someone that counts... and will effect your emotions. If you are uncomfortable with killing you don&#39;t have to do it&#33;

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## Scar

What is a DC??? I am new

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## Scar

WHAT IS DC

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## Artelis

quick&#33;  Idiot is getting mad&#33;

Perhaps learning to be more self-sufficient would be a better approach.

DC is a dream character.

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## Scar

HEHEHE&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; 

JUST WANTED TO KNOW

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## dsr

Don&#39;t worry, Scar. The list of acronyms has only been mentioned 2999 times. Now it&#39;s an even 3000&#33;

I have never killed a DC in an LD (and probably never in a normal dream), but I don&#39;t see anything immoral about it if you treat your LDs like video games. However, some people might have religious/spiritual objections (as DarkMind points out), and that&#39;s perfectly understandable.

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## Keeper

you can never be 100% sure you arn&#39;t hurting somone in WRL by killing a DC.

I think the only justifiable reason to kill a DC is because they wanted to kill you, and then, as your are the dreamer, you could find another way to overcome them other then killing.

I tend to avoid killing people in games if there is another way around it. that is why I like thief so much: you dont have to kill someone in most cases

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## Serinanth

I treat those I meet within the dream with the same respect to those I meet here. I cannot treat them as if they are nothing.  

My take on the dream world is that it is as real as this place, its not something I can question either at this point. Because from my perspective of reality I have to question; is this real? What if I am just some ones Dream Char.

I had a dream character asks me. "Whats going to happen to me when you wake up?" 
I&#39;ve looked in their eyes and have seen there is something there an intelligence a consiousness I dont know... Whether it be a part of myself or perhaps something else I dont know. 
But through my experiences I tend to be trying to help those I meet. I just cannot go on a wanton rampage gta style, its against who I am.

However, I have been in some crazy battles and yes I have killed but it was more a fight to survive than mowing down some random pedestrians. 

But this is my take on the dreaming, do as you wish I just hope our paths do not cross in that place during one of your rampages  :wink2: 

I gotta agree with dark mind here. 
Try to look at the world whether it be this one the dream one with Compassion.

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## ♥Mark

> you can never be 100% sure you arn&#39;t hurting somone in WRL by killing a DC.
> [/b]



Hey, thanks for the heads up, Keeper. I think it&#39;s also worth noting that you can never be 100% sure that a kitten doesn&#39;t die every time you post. 

Please, Keeper, next time you go to post...

Think of the kittens. :&#39;(

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## King and God

Only oneself can determine whether one&#39;s actions are right or wrong. If feeling good mentally after having commited an action, it was a good action, even if it was murder. If feeling bad mentally after having commited an action, it was a bad action, even if it was saving a baby.

I have killed in both lucids and non-lucids. I never kill people I care for, but the rest I kill with a pleasure. They have little to no worth to me anyway.

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## Keeper

I take it you dont believe in shared dreaming then, Mark?

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## ♥Mark

No. I don&#39;t believe that dreams affect the real world in any direct way any more than you believe that your posts will cause direct harm to kittens.

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## flight

Are "really" posting and the harm to a kitten related or linked in some way whatsoever? Because I know dreams and RL are linked a hell of a lot more, also dreams not being entirely understood over our understanding of kittens and forum posts, so doesn&#39;t that rise the odds a little... lol. 
But I think dreams are a form of virtual reality (effecting something without actually being that something.), just like a video game, it&#39;s really not that feasible to say that killing someone from within a virtual world would hurt anyone else in RL other than maybe yourself in some psychological way. It&#39;s just like the saying- "If you die in a dream you die in RL".
Maybe someone could try it out, bring someone you know into your dream kill them and see if you ever see them alive in RL again lol. I know what side I would put my money on and probably 100% of the population would also, excluding some retards of course. :yumdumdoodledum:

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## Amzie

> Now reading the last post it got me thinking about moral rights in dream and is their any in reason. Well let deal with violance now if you kill or beat a DC is this ok. To me it like playing a video game if you kill a person on a video game he doesnt feel pain and is not alive so wouldnt that logic transfer into dreams as well. 
> Their is a point where it can get unreasonable like just doing lucid dreams to kill DC. To date i have only killed fiften DC and these were ninja and i had a sword e.t.c. You could argue like violent video that violance in lucid dream make you more violate but then their no evidence to support the video claim. I cant see anything bad coming from killing DC character. Thoughts anyone
> [/b]



Yes it is. O.o Dreams aren&#39;t reality. I don&#39;t get why people keep trying to drag their morals into their dream worlds. I never would&#33; I do whatever I want to in my dreams&#33;  ::D:

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## Keeper

well, in your dreams you can act without morals, but when I dream and I know I am me, and not some one else, I will choose to act within what I consider exeptable behavier.

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## ExoByte

You asked Mark if he believed in Shared Dreaming. So Im assuming by that you were saying that by killing a DC, you may be killing someone else? 

Heres the think Keeps, its a dream. Have you ever died in your dreams? You wake up fine. Hell, you can even come back to life if you want. 

Remember, in order to have a shared dream... both people must be dreaming. So if you kill a person&#39;s dream body, what harm comes to them?

That is of course if some DCs are other people. Wether they are, or not, I dont see anything wrong with killing a DC. If a DC is a real person, your only killing their dream self which they will harmlessly awake from. If they arent, well, they arent. Either way, your not taking a life nor hurting anyone.

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## Keeper

if you keep dreaming some nut job comes up to you and kills you all the time, you probably are going to end up with issues

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## ExoByte

Well yeah, but its not like we&#39;re always going to Lucid Dream about killing, or have Shared Dreams with the same people all the time.

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## ShYne123

I have yet to have a controled LD, pittifull i know, but idc lol one main thing i want to do in a LD is kill/torture, its just like a game, but i want to know what it is like to take a life, really, who gets the chance? Only a select few, (btw i have a awsome social life and im not depressed, i just watched a few too many movies at a young age most likily), only way i can explain my violent mind.
Is it wrong? Physicly no, morally? hmm....Maybe but it only matters if you care.

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## Unicorn

I don&#39;t agree with the video game references. Of course, both DCs and video characters are fictitious, and killing them won&#39;t ensue any legal/physical consequences.

I&#39;ve bitch-slapped so many DCs it ain&#39;t funny, but i would NEVER dare to kill one of them, i&#39;d be totally afraid just like i would in waking life. I guess it would mean that i&#39;m killing parts of myself?

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## haimmortal

> Some of my favorite LDs are nightmares that turn lucid.  I realize I can&#39;t be hurt and start kicking some a&#036;&#036;   
> [/b]



Wow. I did something very similar. In a dream I was walking to my car in a parking lot and a craft in the sky was shinning a spotlight on me. I thought "Oh shit, I better get in my car and get out of here." Of course I couldn&#39;t find my car, but then I realized that I was dreaming. When the craft came down there were like 5 guys that came after me but I beat the shit out of them.

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## Eminence~

I would never be able to kill a DC. Unless they were trying to hurt me or another DC who I knew or something. I tend to see them as entirely too real to be able to kill or even hurt for no reason.

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## ShYne123

Hmmm, i would love to kill :-/

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## Rory

Well in answer to the topic title, it&#39;s not right to kill a DC, but I don&#39;t think it&#39;s wrong either.

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## Vex Kitten

How can killing something that&#39;s imaginary be wrong? In reality... killing something that&#39;s imaginary isn&#39;t killing anything at all. 


I think that &#39;killing&#39; DCs is the minds way of ridding itself of excess mental baggage... just so happens that the extra crap takes the form of a DC. That&#39;s my take on it anyway.

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## Marcus Wong

It saddens me to see some spiritually ignorant people on this board. This so-called real world is also a big dream. It&#39;s woven by our collective consciousness. What seems solid and real is also our mind&#39;s perception. But is it alright to kill in this world? I don&#39;t think so, at least not without some good reasons.

For those of you who think a dream is only a dream, think again. You can never be sure where in the universe you have projected your consciousness and you can never tell if the people you see in your dreams are just your creations or something else. There are dimensions out there inter-woven with our dream worlds and many of those characters have their own consciousness, even though it might not be the same as ours. Treating these characters with respect is the same as showing respect to our own people and the universe. And you know what, WE are imaginary figures created by a much bigger MIND too. And do we have feelings? Yes, we do.

Start reading some books by Jane Roberts (The Seth Series). Broaden your mental horizon and start practicing a little compassion for ALL.

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## Vex Kitten

Spiritually ignorant?

Pffft.

Who made you the supreme high justice of deeming who is and who is not spiritual or ignorant? Just because someone doesn&#39;t share your viewpoint doesn&#39;t make them ignorant. 

I happen to believe that dreams are a gateway to something more. Perhaps the doorway to the real final frontier. I plan on exploring that frontier in my own way... not have it dictated to me by someone who tries to shove books in my face and say &#39;HEre... read this... this is how it&#39;s _supposed_ to be done.&#39; 

These are MY dreams that I&#39;m exploring and I&#39;ll do whatever I damned well please in them. I&#39;m just starting out and I want to have some fun... not be bogged down by rules and regulations preached to me by people I don&#39;t know and could care less about. 

Perhaps one day I&#39;ll discover the door that leads me to some sort of spiritual dreaming experience. When that night comes I&#39;m sure I&#39;ll recognise it. But until then I&#39;m going to keep killing any dream character who pisses me off. If anyone comes into my dream and fucks with me... they&#39;re going to die a slow and torturous death. Don&#39;t wanna be killed... stay out of my dreams. That&#39;s all there is to it. 

Hell if some inter dimensional presence is sneaking into dreams uninvited then it&#39;s *they* who should be getting the lecture in respect... not us. An invasion such as intruding, uninvited, into the private thoughts, hopes and dreams of an individual is monstrously disrespectful if you ask me. 

I&#39;m not respecting anything that doesn&#39;t respect my privacy.

Oh, and fyi... I read a few Seth stories. It broadened my horizon by proving to me that there are people out there who are willing to make up anything just to make a buck.   ::wink::  

Believe what you want... and I&#39;ll believe what I want. At this point in my dreaming experiences I believe that there is NOTHING wrong with killing DCs. Nothing you can say or do will make me believe otherwise. So go be sad for those of us who are allegedly spiritually ignorant. We won&#39;t care. We&#39;re too busy enjoying our dreams instead of being afraid and hesitant to experience them for all they&#39;re worth.

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## King and God

@ Wong

What makes it unspiritual if I may ask?

Besides, you cannot know whether "we" are imaginary figures. The only thing you can know for sure is your existance and what you are thinking. You can believe it is that way, but you cannot know.

And those who do kill do it because of a good reason: satisfaction. Everyone strive for satisfaction, whether it is through Love, Power, unleashing Hate and/or Anger, Joy, etc.

You have to face that morality is subjective, meaning what you think is right and wrong may not apply to everyone else.

A few examples:

If you love someone, you do it because you reach satisfaction through Love.
If you have sex with someone, you do it because you reach satisfaction through Love and/or Lust
If you do something fun you enjoy, you do it because you reach satisfaction through Joy.

If X kill someone, he/she/it do it because he/she/it reach satisfaction through Power, Hate and/or Anger
If X rape someone, he/she/it do it because he/she/it reach satisfaction through Power and/or Lust

Satisfaction is Good, while Dissatisfaction is Bad.

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## ExoByte

Well, I don&#39;t believe satisfaction is a good reason to kill someone. But I agree with Vex Kitten. I can see where Marcus is comming from, but don&#39;t agree with him calling others ignorant for not sharing his viewpoint.

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## King and God

Why not?

You have to see it from a neutral standpoint, not just based from your own moral values.

If you were only able to achieve Satisfaction through feeling Power by killing someone, you would do it if given the chance.

Everyone base their decisions on what they think will bring Satisfaction to them.

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## ExoByte

Okay, if it wasnt absolutely wrong, yeah sure. But it is wrong, and it isnt a good reason. Taking a life because you want to, because you can.

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## Vex Kitten

Oh right, killing a DC is a very satisfying experience. It does feel good to finally kill off something that&#39;s been relentlessly nagging at one in a dream. 

For anyone who hasn&#39;t killed a DC, I highly recommened it. But don&#39;t just kill off any DC, wait until it&#39;s someone or something that really deserves it and you&#39;ll see how great it feels to overcome that particular character. Like I said in my first post, I think DC killing is mainly a way for your mind to clean out the crud that&#39;s accumulating in it.

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## King and God

It is a good reason if it makes one achieve Satisfaction.

It is just as good as if feeling good from saving a baby.

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## Marcus Wong

Ok, I apologize if I sounded offensive. I recommend Jane&#39;s books because they are a good start into the subject matter. Not that they are the supreme truth though. Just take what works for you and leave the rest. I wouldn&#39;t say everything said in these books is truth, but they are a fine reference. Actually, her books present you many practical exercises and concepts to improve your ability to lucid dream, and even O.O.B.E. I benefit a lot from them. If one ditches her books without really reading them, they have no idea what they are missing.

You don&#39;t have to believe me. But let&#39;s look at it this way. I believe those who like to kill in their dreams to vent their anger or stress should really look at their current lives seriously and see what&#39;s wrong. What really irritate you are not these DCs, but something else. And sometimes the more violent you get, the more unsatisfied and unhappier you are. I know sometimes we feel so powerless in our own lives that being able to do whatever we want to do in our dreams is very tempting. But then, it&#39;s not the solution to the real problem inside.

Why can&#39;t we go for more loving experiences in our dreams? Maybe next time when you want to kill another DC in your dream, try asking yourself, "Why can&#39;t I love them? Can I accept them? Why not?" See what happens next. I guarantee it would be an even more satisfactory experience than killing. Why not give it a try.

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## EVIL JOE

How do know that people in the real world are actual people? We have no actual proof that people in the real world aren&#39;t figments of our imagination. Yet we are nice to them and don&#39;t kill them because they act like we do. They feel, breath, speak, and act a lot like us. Dream characters are the same way, although, they are a bit more dumb/random. Maybe that&#39;s because we believe they aren&#39;t real and we allow them to act that way, unlike real people, who we believe are real, so our minds make them do normal things.


Regardless of what I just typed, I would love to kill DCs in lucid dreams, although, I would make their deaths comical, because I wouldn&#39;t want to see them suffer even if they don&#39;t exist.


Here&#39;s an idea. What if we conjure up DCs that represent our fears and then kill them? If you have a fear of heights you could throw your fear-of-heights DC off a cliff (or just karate chop him in half). Then when you wake up maybe you wouldn&#39;t have that fear anymore. I don&#39;t know. I&#39;m tired.

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## Vex Kitten

Apology accepted.   ::wink::  

I&#39;ve read tons of books about dreaming. The Seth scriptures are not something I want to rely upon to further dream mastery. I could type off a list of books I recommend but I won&#39;t. I&#39;d feel like door to door salesman trying to push a product on someone. 

I totally get what you&#39;re saying though about the killing... it&#39;s the whole &#39;make love not war&#39; type thing. And granted, in a lucid dream if one has the control they could simply will the dream character or the dream itself into something more loving. But then, not everyone has that much control in dreams. 

Some people are passive. Some are agressive. Some, like me, fit somewhere in between. I don&#39;t run around in dreams killing for the hell of it. I usually only kill or hurt someone if they&#39;ve pissed me off. And even if I did have enough control to make the offending DC submit to me or change the dream all together... I wouldn&#39;t do it. I&#39;d deal with that character in whatever manner I saw fit... which would probably be something good and gory if I had the time and control. That&#39;s just me. At this point in my dreaming career I don&#39;t want lovey dovey, hippy type, happily ever after dreams. I had those when I was a kid and I"ve moved past the want for such dreams. 

But why kill a DC? It feels great. It does something amazing for the mind. I wake up from these dreams feeling strong and refreshed. In my case it does clean out my cluttered emotional closet. I went to coucilling for years and never once in all that time did I feel as strong or as clear minded as i do after waking from a dream in which I kill a deserving DC. I don&#39;t need prozak or zoloft or whatever &#39;smiley pill&#39; is in fashion this year. The occasional dream kill probably works better than any medication the doctors could ever hope to cram down a patient&#39;s throat. 

I&#39;m not telling people to throw away their medication and lucid dream instead. I&#39;m saying that killing DC&#39;s is good in it&#39;s own way as far as I&#39;m concerned. And I&#39;m aware that the DC is simply a real life problem masquerading about in dream. If I can kill off a problem symbolically... i&#39;m going to kill it off to the best of my ability. Will the problem still be there when I wake up? Most likely, but I know I&#39;ll feel a lot more confident, empowered and ready to deal with that problem when I&#39;m faced with it in real life without the use of shrinks or drugs. 

I think certain DCs are conjoured up specifically to be tackled and overcome as a way to help some assert something important within themselves. And... on the flip side I believe there are DC&#39;s that are conjored to help some explore or enrich the compassionate side. I&#39;ll deal with these characters however I please. A year from now I might hold a completely different opinion in regards to the killing, perhaps I&#39;ll have evolved or de-evolved to the point where I don&#39;t need to kill. Who knows? Until then I&#39;ll keep doing what I&#39;m doing and I don&#39;t care who tells me it&#39;s wrong.

I say experience your dreams to the fullest. Don&#39;t be afraid to do things in dreams that you wouldn&#39;t do in real life. In dreams a person can truly be him or herself or even be a god if they so choose. Leave morals and rules and commandments for the drudgery of waking life. In dreams... be free.

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## Marcus Wong

Here are some very nice suggestions I found from another LD site for conquering nightmares and defeating enemies in dreams. I really like her little story at the end. Enjoy.

*Conquer your nightmares*
If you have nightmares you can overcome them through lucid dreaming. If you realise you are dreaming, you know you have nothing to fear. 

*Confront your enemy*
The best thing to do is to confront your enemy. If something is chasing you, turn around and look at it. Sometimes this is enough and the scary thing turns out to be nothing to be afraid of at all. 

When the enemy is still hostile, ask him what he thinks is doing in your dream and defeat it. Feel the power of the knowledge that he is part of your imagination, that you are in control and that it should listen to you.

*Demand a gift*
If the enemy is defeated, demand a gift. The purpose of the gift is to transform the negative into something positive. You will always get a gift. These gifts are really amazing and give you a very powerful feeling. Once I got a gift of really beautiful music, and I could still hear it when I woke up... 

If you use this technique in a nightmare it won&#39;t haunt you again.

*Give a big hug*
Another approach is to hug your enemy. Essentially, all parts in your nightmare are parts of you you are afraid to see. If you hug your enemy in your dream you will transform your fear into love and thus dissolve it. 

*A dream of mine:*
Once, I had a dream in which a German soldier from WWII was coming after me to make me prisoner or something. I ran down a bridge and hid myself in a corner. Then I realized I was dreaming.

"I want to know who that is that is after me, and why he’s doing it" I said to myself.
I yelled: "Here I am&#33; Come and catch me&#33;".
There he came. But the mean-looking soldier had transformed in a small childlike woman.
I asked: "Who are you?"
She replied: "I’m your fear for the unknown." 
This was a very emotional moment in the dream and crying, I hugged her.

I realized that my "fear for the unknown" had made me "run away" in real life situations.

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## theyearthreethousand

PERSONALLY I don&#39;t think I&#39;ve ever killed a dream-character, even in self defence. Yes, I have had a vicious knife battle and had other fights.. but none that resulted in death. I am always emotional in my dreams, whether I like it or not.. even If I&#39;m telling myself this is just a dream. Yes, I once thought about how cool it would be to have the skills of Neo in my dreamworld, but this was before I actually had my first LD; I soon realised that my LD&#39;s can be much more beneficial: and help me understand myself as a human being and develop myself as a person. We all developed our lucid skills for a reason, and I respect everyone&#39;s.. but this is just my view on why I am continuing to do it.

In one LD I controlled I saved a beautiful girl.. When I woke up I felt alive and smiled all day. Personally, I don&#39;t think I would gain anything by going on killing rampages in my dreams.. IMO it would be wasteful, and just not right.

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## 3FLryan

I recently had a WILD where I woke up and was trying to stabalize, then this DC came in my room and was trying to make me lose my concentration, tempting me with sex so I&#39;d get excited and wake up, etc.  I told her to please go away, this was my dream and I would do what I want, and I wanted to leave my room.  She wouldn&#39;t let me. She grabbed on to me and starting chanting scary weird crap and changed into a monster and started gouging my eyes.  I told it that I realized it was just trying to wake me up, and it wasn&#39;t going to work because this was my dream. I remained calm and unaggressive the whole time.  She finally woke me up.

Next LD I have, I&#39;m summoning that bitch DC for the sole purpose of exploding her into thousands of pieces with trillions upon trillions of volts of lightning.  Then I will laugh and fly away, and all will be good and right.

After reading this thread, maybe I&#39;ll give her a chance to apologize.  But it had better be one damn good apology.

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## Vex Kitten

> Here are some very nice suggestions I found from another LD site for conquering nightmares and defeating enemies in dreams. I really like her little story at the end. Enjoy.
> 
> [color=#6600CC]*Conquer your nightmares*
> If you have nightmares you can overcome them through lucid dreaming. If you realise you are dreaming, you know you have nothing to fear. 
> 
> *Confront your enemy*
> The best thing to do is to confront your enemy. If something is chasing you, turn around and look at it. Sometimes this is enough and the scary thing turns out to be nothing to be afraid of at all. 
> 
> When the enemy is still hostile, ask him what he thinks is doing in your dream and defeat it. Feel the power of the knowledge that he is part of your imagination, that you are in control and that it should listen to you.
> ...



And what happens if none of these work? Lucidity doesn&#39;t automatically mean one has the control to make any of those suggestions work. Some dream characters put up a good fight. What then? Is one to just submit and let this manifestation of negativity conquer the dream?

----------


## Marcus Wong

> And what happens if none of these work? Lucidity doesn&#39;t automatically mean one has the control to make any of those suggestions work. Some dream characters put up a good fight. What then? Is one to just submit and let this manifestation of negativity conquer the dream?
> [/b]



Let&#39;s put it this way. Many of these inner demons come from YOU. You breed them. The more you want to fight against them, the more they want to fight against you. It&#39;s a vicious cycle. They are just the mirror of your dark side. Negative reactions don&#39;t make them go away. They will always come back in different forms because you keep feeding them the negative energy they like so much.

Take quiting smoking as an example. Sometimes the more you want to quit smoking, the more your want to smoke. Because you are always giving smoking attention. Your mind just can&#39;t quit the idea of smoking, because you keep thinking about it. The only effective way to quit smoking is to cultivate your love for fresh air. When your love for fresh air keeps expanding, your desire to smoke lessens. When you successfully convince your subconscious that you LOVE fresh air MORE than smoking, you automatically quit it.

So, if we want the war to end, we need to focus on peace. Fighting against it only makes it stronger. Because what we focus on, expands. So when you focus on fighting, you get more fighting experience. Not that it&#39;s wrong though, you may enjoy it a lot. But if your goal is to end it for all, fighting against it just doesn&#39;t do it. But when you start loving your DCs, they WILL change. Because they are a part of you. Loving them means acknowledging your own weaknesses, and accepting yourself for what you are. Nothing is more powerful than total self-acceptance.

----------


## Vex Kitten

Hey, I know the bad guys come from me. All the more reason for me to kill the monsters off. 

And for your info... I quit smoking and drinking at the drop of a hat. So I know I have the strenth to overcome. However, certain dream characters won&#39;t be as easily ignored as a tube of tobacco or a bottle of liquor. 

You tell us to approach a violent dream character and try to win it over with love. I&#39;m guessing that that won&#39;t work unless someone is pretty close to 100% sane or has absolutely nothing to hide. OR... unless that demon is ready to be assimilated into your loving and peaceful embrace. I&#39;m going to bet that if, in a dream, someone comes face to face with a serious and masked issue... it won&#39;t want to sit down and have a friendly cup of tea with you and discuss the weather. 

And like I said repeatedly... it all comes back to control in the dream. Lucidity DOES NOT automatically mean absolute control. If one had that kind of control in a dream then a hostile character would never have made it into the dream in the first place. 

I&#39;ve had instances where I&#39;ve told a DC in a lucid dream that they were in MY dream and nothing more than a figment of my imagination. That DC in turn told me that I was the figment of his imagination... or he told me that I was in his dream. I&#39;ve fought and conquered some DC&#39;s without killing them. I&#39;m certain that there is no way in hell that one of those nasty bastards would have surrendered to something peaceful. And that all goes to prove that, yes, I do have many issues that need dealing with. Most of us do. Did you hear me claiming absolute sanity? No. So I&#39;m going to have to kick and probably killl the occasional DC&#39;s ass. And I&#39;m going to go out on a limb and say most of us (meaning those of us who are apparently not as mentally balanced and sinless as you) will eventually experience DC&#39;s that will scoff in the face of peaceful intentions. What do you do when peace doesn&#39;t work? I&#39;d say show the demon who is boss by beating it down and killing it if possible. Assert yourself and take back the power in the dream. Even if you don&#39;t win it&#39;s a step closer to defeating that particular demon.

Remember, not all DC&#39;s will react the same way. They are as complex as the mind that is creating them. Not all will succumb to peace. Not all will need to be killed. Don&#39;t act as if all DC&#39;s are mindless drones. They are not. The human mind is intricate, full of a lifetimes worth of possibilities and characters to fill those possibilities. IF the peaceful route works.. take it. If it doesn&#39;t... take back the dream by whatever means nessesary. Kill if need be. I&#39;m telling you... it&#39;s an amazing feeling to defeat demons in dreams.

----------


## Marcus Wong

> I&#39;m certain that there is no way in hell that one of those nasty bastards would have surrendered to something peaceful. [/b]



This is the core issue. Listen to what you say, "I&#39;m CERTAIN that there is..."

You have a very strong belief that they are very nasty bastards that can&#39;t be changed without using any violent means. And so they are. You belief gave them the power.

I can assure you that achieving complete serenity in such situations is not an easy task, but it&#39;s the most powerful way to conquer them. You know why they are so powerful and nasty? Because you keep reacting. You don&#39;t have the real inner peace. You lose your patience easily. And that way they can really get to you.

I rarely have bad dreams. But I once have a lucid dream where there are many Japanese Ninjas holding knives running towards me trying to chop me into pieces. Since I knew it&#39;s all a dream, I just sat down and watched them. When their knives touched me and I refused to move, I could see they were in awe. Their knives just went through my body and I didn&#39;t feel anything. They then seemed to lose the interest and dropped their knives before me, then left. I conquered them without moving a finger. I didn&#39;t run away, and I didn&#39;t fight back. I just kept observing everything around me with detachment, and things go my way.

As I said, if you enjoy your fighting experience, keep doing it. We all know that rollercoaster is fun, and sometimes we enjoy watching movies like the SAW series. We all like excitement, and sometimes we like to scare ourselves. What I&#39;m really suggesting is that true inner peace is really worth pursuing, and is the most powerful.

----------


## becomingagodo

> As I said, if you enjoy your fighting experience, keep doing it. We all know that rollercoaster is fun, and sometimes we enjoy watching movies like the SAW series. We all like excitement, and sometimes we like to scare ourselves. What I&#39;m really suggesting is that true inner peace is really worth pursuing, and is the most powerful[/b]



This reminds me of a japanses movie the director was the person who made audition. Well basically the detective was chasing a criminal i think drug dealer slash assasin, well the gist of it was that the detective being morally and peacefull was dead while the assasin was alive. 




> You have a very strong belief that they are very nasty bastards that can&#39;t be changed without using any violent means. And so they are. You belief gave them the power.
> 
> I can assure you that achieving complete serenity in such situations is not an easy task, but it&#39;s the most powerful way to conquer them. You know why they are so powerful and nasty? Because you keep reacting. You don&#39;t have the real inner peace. You lose your patience easily. And that way they can really get to you.[/b]



Well for both of you trying to appear superior to the other i claim your both not. Well were not dead so bhuddism philosophy should be chucked out because essentially it just as primitive as violance. The point is we have to use reason to get rid of fear as suggested by boris sidis, put it this way without reason were just primitive human or homosamien to be more correct. Well the greatness of being a homosepian is the abillity to reason and that how you get rid of primitive thoughts. Then again imagining a blade and slicing the enermy does sound like a good alternative.




> What I&#39;m really suggesting is that true inner peace is really worth pursuing, and is the most powerful.[/b]



I disagree chaos and intelligence is more powerful.

----------


## LUCIDITY NOW!

Ah.... everybody thinking that they are right... in reality, it doesn&#39;t matter as long as it works for you... if it does, you really shouldn&#39;t give a flying shit.

----------


## Vex Kitten

Dude... give it up already. I never claimed to possess inner peace and I don&#39;t want inner peace so quit trying to sell it to me. If Iwant to hear about love and compassion and the such I&#39;ll go to church. 

And I already told you i know that DC&#39;s are reflections of me. Who knows me better than me? Already knowing this, I know my DCs would never surrender to something as stupid as a hug. They&#39;d probably kick the crap out of me for being such a weenie. 

And don&#39;t tell me I don&#39;t have patience. If I didn&#39;t have patience I&#39;d have told you to take your hippy shit and shove it where the sun don&#39;t shine the first time I replied to you. The fact that Im here now responding, yet again, though you seem to not be listening to me proves beyond all doubt that I posess patience. 

Bad dreams? I rarely have them. They seemed to have withered and died after I started seriously attempting to lucid dream. I have odd and uncomfortable dreams but nothing that really frightens me. In this past year Ive claimed back more of my sanity than ever I have in all the years of counilling I endured. My way works for me. I&#39;ll stick with it. 

What you seem to consider as a peaceful approach towards dealing with negativity sounds like submission. I&#39;m not submitting to any DC if I can help it. Sorry if I don&#39;t subscribe to your wimpy ways of dealing with things. If you have that  much calm and control in dreams... yay for you. Most of us don&#39;t have that and will have to face our demons in other ways. I&#39;m not not you. I do not handle situations the way you do. I don&#39;t want to handle dreams the way you do. I don&#39;t want to be you. Take your peace and love and sell it to people who buy that stuff.

And just for your information... I WILL KEEP KILLING. But not because you told me to. I&#39;ll do it because I want to, because I like it and because it&#39;s a nessesary part of my dreaming experience at this point in my life. I stand firm that killing DC&#39;s isn&#39;t wrong. Stop trying to drag morals and rules into a world where such things are made to be broken. If you live your dreams as though they were waking life... i pity you. You&#39;re  missing out on some truly great and indescribable experiences.

Why do people feel it&#39;s nessesary to ruin something amazing like LDing by trying to chain us down with rules? Don&#39;t oppress me&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;   ::bigteeth:: 

*EDIT*

Hey. I AM right.

However I deal with my dreams and DC&#39;s is right for me. I&#39;m speaking for myself and my personal situation. And that&#39;s what I&#39;ve been trying to say all along. HIs ways are as wrong for me as my ways are wrong for him. 

My dreams. My solutions work best for me. That&#39;s all there is to it.

And I&#39;m not trying to be better than him. 
Don&#39;t havet to try.
I already know I am.
heh heh  :wink2:

----------


## Keeper

I choose to have my morals. They are one thing that only humans have, and someone without morals cant truly know what it is like to be human

"Within rules, there is FREEDOM&#33;"

I will _always_ be me, and I will _always_ act in the manner I deem right. Murder for not reason is not just, and I will have no part of it.
As long as I am Me, I will do what is right

----------


## hainsaw3

I think killing innocent DC&#39;s is wrong, but demons, evil spirits, and human DC&#39;s who wrong me or others are fair game to be destroyed. 

   I don&#39;t do anything wrong in the real world. but even I get stress, I need to vent my anger on something, and I don&#39;t plan on doing it to anything real anytime soon.   

   I just had a dream (normal) where I was fighting, I don&#39;t even know who it was...
....but damn it was exhilarating&#33;

----------


## becomingagodo

> Why do people feel it&#39;s nessesary to ruin something amazing like LDing by trying to chain us down with rules? Don&#39;t oppress me&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;[/b]



I choose freedom too




> "Within rules, there is FREEDOM&#33;"[/b]



But your not truly free because your following rules i.e. somebody who is following rules cant be free because he cant go against the rule he is following.

----------


## ShYne123

True, its just like a game, if i  kill somone i know in real life (in a LD) its the same thing as thinking about it, no worse. No Rules are what i want to LD for, no consequences to our actions.

----------


## really

I don&#39;t think we can compare (as discussed earlier) the dreamworld with the waking world, to say that the dream world is real or related to the real world. For many reasons:

• We do not learn morals in the dreamworld, because there they can be warped and changed.
• We cannot bring morals from the waking life into the dreamworld because the dreamworld is different. For a few things, killing a DC may have a different perspective because you can revive them, heal them and turn them into a mouse if you want.  ::D:  
• Death also can have different perspectives, for example: In the waking life people die, and we never see or hear from them again, and so we can do nothing about it. But in the dreamworld, it is more by will. We can simply ignore a DC and they will disappear, or "die". But we can bring them back if we want.
• If we do believe morals should be brought into dreams, then should we believe that the laws of physics and nature should be too? Is it wrong to flatten someone paper thin?
• Has anyone had a DC tell them that killing was bad? Actually not many DC&#39;s really know how to communicate well, so there&#39;s probably nothing important enough to tell.  ::D: 
• Most of the time we dream about our own personal situations. So I don&#39;t believe these can be part of anyone else in the real world (that&#39;s why I don&#39;t understand Shared dreaming).
• Also, most points in this post are related with lucid dreams. But what&#39;s if we killed in a normal dream? Who will blame someone who is unaware and unconscious every night of their lives? It is only us who will be affected, and we can&#39;t help knowing otherwise.

I don&#39;t believe it is right or wrong to kill a DC, because there is no loss really, it&#39;s just a dream choice. It seems nothing in a dream follows a set of rules. It is only how it affects us, because that&#39;s all it is part of. If you think killing is good (in a dream) then do it, if you then find it is bad, reverse the situation - you have control in dreams (if you&#39;re lucid of course)&#33;

And we have morals in the real world, because it is real - we don&#39;t know what happens when someones time is up (However, we do in a dream  :smiley:  ), so we wouldn&#39;t want to end it, all we know is that they never return. 

I think we should ask ourselves, "Why do we find satisfaction through killing?"

----------


## Marcus Wong

> Dude... give it up already. I never claimed to possess inner peace and I don&#39;t want inner peace so quit trying to sell it to me. If Iwant to hear about love and compassion and the such I&#39;ll go to church. 
> 
> And I already told you i know that DC&#39;s are reflections of me. Who knows me better than me? Already knowing this, I know my DCs would never surrender to something as stupid as a hug. They&#39;d probably kick the crap out of me for being such a weenie. 
> 
> And don&#39;t tell me I don&#39;t have patience. If I didn&#39;t have patience I&#39;d have told you to take your hippy shit and shove it where the sun don&#39;t shine the first time I replied to you. The fact that Im here now responding, yet again, though you seem to not be listening to me proves beyond all doubt that I posess patience. 
> 
> Bad dreams? I rarely have them. They seemed to have withered and died after I started seriously attempting to lucid dream. I have odd and uncomfortable dreams but nothing that really frightens me. In this past year Ive claimed back more of my sanity than ever I have in all the years of counilling I endured. My way works for me. I&#39;ll stick with it. 
> 
> What you seem to consider as a peaceful approach towards dealing with negativity sounds like submission. I&#39;m not submitting to any DC if I can help it. Sorry if I don&#39;t subscribe to your wimpy ways of dealing with things. If you have that  much calm and control in dreams... yay for you. Most of us don&#39;t have that and will have to face our demons in other ways. I&#39;m not not you. I do not handle situations the way you do. I don&#39;t want to handle dreams the way you do. I don&#39;t want to be you. Take your peace and love and sell it to people who buy that stuff.
> ...



Whew, a very big ego here.  :smiley: 

I&#39;m just making suggestions. I&#39;m just trying to tell you something you have never considered. It&#39;s not a contest here. 

But I totally disagree with you on one thing. Being peaceful and serene is not the same as being wimpy. Instead, it takes the most courage to be calm in dire situations. And there&#39;s a difference between calmness and cowardice. I guess you don&#39;t quite get it. And when you are calm enough, you can actually come up with very creative solutions for many problems in life.

And I don&#39;t think I am actually bound by some kind of rules in my dream though. Instead, I have an immense feeling of freedom when I&#39;m roaming in my dreams. I actually have the most control of my dream when I stay calm and peaceful. And it&#39;s the same for every lucid dreamer. Being calm and detached is the way to total control of our lucid dreams. It&#39;s NOT only a matter of morality. But it seems to me you never would consider alternatives. And this way, you always get the same experience over and over again. That to me is more boring.

Anyway, I respect your choice and your opinions. But somehow you&#39;re also not listening.

----------


## Vex Kitten

Haha. 
I don&#39;t have a big ego. It&#39;s a healthy sized ego. BUt I bet you&#39;d disagree with that opinion of mine too.

I consider alternatives. All those rambling posts I wrote were simply me just trying to be as drop dead serious as you about dreaming. And just basically being an ass because it&#39;s one of the things I do best.

I do stand by my opinion though. Killing DC&#39;s isn&#39;t wrong at all. You&#39;re waaaaay to serious man. Loosen up and live a little. Stop trying to be the Jesus Christ of Lucid Dreaming... Im already here.   ::wink::  

Anyway, welcome to DV&#39;s, since I never said it in the first place.
 ::bigteeth::

----------


## Marcus Wong

Thanks for welcoming me. It&#39;s nice to find an online community of lucid dreaming.

I believe any form of destruction (or killing or death or whatsoever) is not right or wrong in itself. And this is the tao of this universe. No destruction, no rebirth. And the truth is, those who don&#39;t mind killing (or even enjoy doing so) are usually the winners or leaders on this planet. Morality breeds losers. I know it all too well.

It&#39;s all a matter of choice, and I believe there&#39;s no such thing as a superior choice. Both who kill and who let live have very different kinds of satisfactions in what they do. I just happen to be the one who finds the most satisfaction when I see everyone around me is intact and well. Not that I can speak for all though. But I&#39;d like to spread the message of kindness. I don&#39;t intend to change everyone, such is a childish and naive thought.

There&#39;s a Chinese saying I like so much, which goes literally in English "Embrace the differences". It&#39;s kinda difficult but I&#39;m still learning. Cheers.

BTW, I&#39;m not trying to be Jesus. I&#39;m not a fan of him.  :smiley:

----------


## Marcus Wong

> This reminds me of a japanses movie the director was the person who made audition. Well basically the detective was chasing a criminal i think drug dealer slash assasin, well the gist of it was that the detective being morally and peacefull was dead while the assasin was alive. [/b]



I&#39;d say the detective died simply because he was less intelligent than the assassin, it&#39;s nothing to do with his morality. One could be both peaceful and smart. These are not contradictory qualities. And an assassin could also be very tranquil inside. You know why those good guys are always outsmarted by the bad guys? Because they are less calm than the bad ones.





> I disagree chaos and intelligence is more powerful.[/b]



One couldn&#39;t be really intelligent if their minds are not peaceful and tranquil. Inner turmoils simply cloud judgments. And when one attains true inner peace their mind opens up to all possibilities. So, to me inner peace and intelligence go hand in hand.

----------


## becomingagodo

> One couldn&#39;t be really intelligent if their minds are not peaceful and tranquil. Inner turmoils simply cloud judgments. And when one attains true inner peace their mind opens up to all possibilities. So, to me inner peace and intelligence go hand in hand.[/b]



I disagree well a good example would be van gogh who new that if it wasnt for his mental illness then he wouldnt be half the artist he ended up being. Or Nietzsche when he said 




> One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [/b]



Even your quote embrace the differences should mean you should embrace chaos or you should embrace it as much as traquility.  
Your assuming intelligence is judgement i could proberly find about 35 people that have superior intelligence but have not got a decent thread of judgement in their body. One other point i thought bhuddish is to know yourself what the quote to know something is knowledge to know yourself is enlightenment, well how do you know your not chaotic yourself because what i see is your surpressing all your emotion or just throwing it away by relaxing yourself at the end of the day your only a animal. This remind me of the film fight club in a scene one of the person get their hand burned by lye so to get rid of pain he did mediation, well the other person who at the end was a hallucination stoped him meditating by pulling him back and said this is your pain. The problem and the main reason i gave bhuddism up is because it neglect reality for inner peace and traquillity, what that saying ignorance is bliss enlightenment is hell.  

Embrace the difference or as picasso would say




> Every act of creation is first an act of destruction. [/b]

----------


## Marcus Wong

> I disagree well a good example would be van gogh who new that if it wasnt for his mental illness then he wouldnt be half the artist he ended up being. Or Nietzsche when he said... [/b]



Hmm...I thought we were talking about intelligence, not artistic talent. Van Gogh is definitely not intelligent in my book. I&#39;d say he&#39;s artistically creative. But so sad he killed himself. Pardon me if I say he&#39;s a loser. Yeah, he is forever remembered as one of the greatest artists of all time, but the whole thing still seems pathetic to me. He couldn&#39;t even live long enough to enjoy his fame. 

As for Nietzsche, I have a great deal of respect for him and he is no doubt one of the greatest philosophers. I admire his courage to speak against religions. I can see the beauty in his thoughts. But at the end of the day it&#39;s a matter of what you want to achieve ultimately. His path is just not mine.





> Even your quote embrace the differences should mean you should embrace chaos or you should embrace it as much as traquility.  
> Your assuming intelligence is judgement i could proberly find about 35 people that have superior intelligence but have not got a decent thread of judgement in their body. One other point i thought bhuddish is to know yourself what the quote to know something is knowledge to know yourself is enlightenment, well how do you know your not chaotic yourself because what i see is your surpressing all your emotion or just throwing it away by relaxing yourself at the end of the day your only a animal. This remind me of the film fight club in a scene one of the person get their hand burned by lye so to get rid of pain he did mediation, well the other person who at the end was a hallucination stoped him meditating by pulling him back and said this is your pain. The problem and the main reason i gave bhuddism up is because it neglect reality for inner peace and traquillity, what that saying ignorance is bliss enlightenment is hell.  
> 
> Embrace the difference or as picasso would say
> [/b]



Well, I didn&#39;t say I wouldn&#39;t embrace chaos. One could observe and appreciate chaos and be very tranquil. Again, these are not contradictory qualities. The opposite of chaos is order. I&#39;ve never said I am pro-order. What I meant was that I do my best to just observe and be detached whenever whatever is happening to me so that I can have a better grasp of the situation. And take brainstorming and creative problem solving as examples, these are very chaotic processes and yet I can remain tranquil and sane, why not? Inner turmoils are what I&#39;m against, not chaos. Chaos could be constructive whereas inner turmoils are negative inner struggles.

Granted, chaos and intelligence are powerful. But on top of them there is a pilot called inner peace or tranquility. Without that quality of tranquility being installed in the first place, we end up becoming another Van Gogh -- insane and suicidal.

And to tell you honestly, I NEVER suppress my emotions. Suppressing emotions is very unhealthy. I have actually learned to observe my emotions when they come up and watch them leave. They are not suppressed, but acknowledged and released. I never trap them inside. Yes, emotions could be released in a very quiet and healthy manner. I could also choose to do something really silly or violent to vent my negative emotions, but it is simply unwise and most importantly, INEFFECTIVE. I hope I am now explaining things more clearly to you.

To your surprise, I am not a buddhist. And I&#39;ve never claimed to be one. My beliefs may cross paths with buddhism but I don&#39;t dig everything of it. Buddhism is very passive and laidback and tells people to accept what is, and not to change a thing. My view is to observe what is as detached as possible SO THAT I could change it the way I really want it to with minimum effort. That is the difference  between buddhism and what I believe in. To put it in better words, my philosophy is closer to that of Tai Chi.

----------


## becomingagodo

> Hmm...I thought we were talking about intelligence, not artistic talent. Van Gogh is definitely not intelligent in my book. I&#39;d say he&#39;s artistically creative. But so sad he killed himself. Pardon me if I say he&#39;s a loser. Yeah, he is forever remembered as one of the greatest artists of all time, but the whole thing still seems pathetic to me. He couldn&#39;t even live long enough to enjoy his fame. [/b]



Okay what about godel he died of a mental illness also he a mathematician so now he highly intelligent or Nash how also is a mathematician but he not dead.




> Well, I didn&#39;t say I wouldn&#39;t embrace chaos. One could observe and appreciate chaos and be very tranquil. Again, these are not contradictory qualities. The opposite of chaos is order. I&#39;ve never said I am pro-order. What I meant was that I do my best to just observe and be detached whenever whatever is happening to me so that I can have a better grasp of the situation. And take brainstorming and creative problem solving as examples, these are very chaotic processes and yet I can remain tranquil and sane, why not? [/b]



I give you that but if you have to surpless the stupid ideas so your really just getting rid of chaos.




> To your surprise, I am not a buddhist. And I&#39;ve never claimed to be one. My beliefs may cross paths with buddhism but I don&#39;t dig everything of it. Buddhism is very passive and laidback and tells people to accept what is, and not to change a thing. My view is to observe what is as detached as possible SO THAT I could change it the way I really want it to with minimum effort. That is the difference between buddhism and what I believe in. To put it in better words, my philosophy is closer to that of Tai Chi.[/b]



To observe but then your just a rock. The best counter for this would be Heraclitus who that change is fundamental it stabillity that is the illusion which then he came up with his idea of flux




> He is famous for (allegedly) expressing the notion that no man can cross the same river twice:
> 
> "Ποταμοῖς τοῖς αὐτοῖς ἐμβαίνομέν τε καὶ οὐκ ἐμβαίνομεν, εἶμέν τε καὶ οὐκ εἶμεν."
> "We both step and do not step in the same rivers. We are and are not."
> 
> The idea of the logos is also credited to him, as he proclaims that everything originates out of the logos. Further, Heraclitus said "I am as I am not", and "He who hears not me but the logos will say: All is one." Heraclitus held that an explanation of change was foundational to any theory of nature. This view was strongly opposed by Parmenides, who said that reality was permanent and unchanging. According to Lavine, Parmenides asked, "How can a thing change into something else? How can it be and not be?" According to Parmenides, change is merely an illusion.[3]
> 
> His promotion of change also led Heraclitus to believe that conflict (e.g., ἀγών agon in Greek) is necessary for change to occur and to argue against Homer: "War is the father of all and the king of all" and "Every animal is driven to pasture with a blow."
> 
> His view on the random chance inherent in the universe is famously the direct opposite of Einstein&#39;s (in which he stated "God does not play dice with the universe"): "Time is a child moving counters in a game; the kingly power is a child&#39;s."[/b]



See by staying the same your not truly working with the universe. Well you do seem really smart i could even say your the smartest person who knows philosophy i have talked to, which is kind of depressing. However if you dont see your flaw i will talk about quantum mechainics and how your truly observing nothing.

----------


## King and God

> Instead, it takes the most courage to be calm in dire situations. And there&#39;s a difference between calmness and cowardice. I guess you don&#39;t quite get it. And when you are calm enough, you can actually come up with very creative solutions for many problems in life.[/b]



I have to agree with that. I have had two dreams (non-LD and LD) where I remained calm and allowed the DC&#39;s to attack me. 

In the non-LD, I was lying on the ground, allowing a DC to cut through my flesh with a large knife for quite a time, and after a while I took a hold of his neck, crushed him with my hand and threw his corpse away.

In the LD I was in a fight with some dream characters. One of them threw a molotov cocktail towards me but missed, and I stepped into the fire that came from the molotov completely naked to prove my strenght, and afterwards I finished them off, of course.

----------


## Keeper

I think you missed the point

----------


## King and God

I agreed that being calm does not equal to cowardice. Edited my post to clarify.

----------


## Marcus Wong

> Okay what about godel he died of a mental illness also he a mathematician so now he highly intelligent or Nash how also is a mathematician but he not dead.[/b]



And the point is? OK, these people are highly intelligent and their minds are really "chaotic" at some points in their lives. They may not have the peace of mind but still they have achieved a great deal, is that what you&#39;re trying to say? But let me ask you a question. How would you know that they wouldn&#39;t have achieved EVEN MORE if they had been more serene and detached in their researches? How would you know that they wouldn&#39;t be more successful if they had practiced a little "let go and let God"? We never know.

You have not proven to me that having a chaotically intelligent mind is superior to having a tranquil mind. I can also quote Ghandi as an example to show that a tranquil mind can achieve the great. Who dare say that Ghandi&#39;s achievements are less worthy than Nash&#39;s? 





> To observe but then your just a rock. The best counter for this would be Heraclitus who that change is fundamental it stabillity that is the illusion which then he came up with his idea of flux[/b]



Check my words:
My view is to observe what is as detached as possible SO THAT I could change it the way I really want it to *with minimum effort.*

I&#39;ve never said I wouldn&#39;t take action. I only meant that I&#39;d take the most efficient action, keeping my effort minimal. I am just against wasting excessive energy. To observe doesn&#39;t mean sitting still like a rock, who gave you this idea? When one can observe the whole picture calmly, one knows WHEN and HOW to take the MOST APPROPRIATE and EFFECTIVE action. I&#39;m just against the idea of chopping the door open when I can just open it with a tiny key.





> See by staying the same your not truly working with the universe. Well you do seem really smart i could even say your the smartest person who knows philosophy i have talked to, which is kind of depressing. However if you dont see your flaw i will talk about quantum mechainics and how your truly observing nothing.
> [/b]



My attitude remains the same, but my reactions are not. I may treat every situation with the same attitude (that I&#39;m detached and try not to get emotionally involved), but that doesn&#39;t mean that I always take the same action. For example, my attitude towards my friends and family remain the same (I love them all), but that doesn&#39;t mean I treat everyone the same way. I do whatever I see fit for anyone and everyone. And I can do so very well because I have done my KEEN OBSERVATIONS.

You don&#39;t need to throw everything you know in my face to show your profound knowledge in philosophy. I know where you&#39;re coming from and I&#39;m just not your kind of people. I dislike philosophical discussions, and I have never been an avid philosophy student. I don&#39;t claim to understand Aristotle and Plato. I am simply sharing my views which are apparently very different from quite a few people here. Well, it&#39;s nice to stretch our minds once in a while though.

And why are you trying to "make me see my flaws"? Of course there are flaws. I don&#39;t think anyone can come up with any theory that is so flawless that no one can challenge. If there&#39;s such a thing as a "flawless theory" then philosophy is meaningless. Everything can be argued and doubted. What you said have flaws too. I don&#39;t claim that I am flawless in what I say. I am just sharing my belief, and there is no such thing as "a flaw in a belief". We believe what we want to believe, flawed or flawless. We share our beliefs with others because we have benefit from our beliefs and we want to share it with others. And even a so-called "flawed belief" could serve some positive purpose. Simple as that. Again, you don&#39;t need to agree with me.

----------


## becomingagodo

> You don&#39;t need to throw everything you know in my face to show your profound knowledge in philosophy. I know where you&#39;re coming from and I&#39;m just not your kind of people. I dislike philosophical discussions, and I have never been an avid philosophy student. I don&#39;t claim to understand Aristotle and Plato. I am simply sharing my views which are apparently very different from quite a few people here. Well, it&#39;s nice to stretch our minds once in a while though.[/b]



Well you misinterprete me i meant that you think and can reason good.




> I&#39;ve never said I wouldn&#39;t take action. I only meant that I&#39;d take the most efficient action, keeping my effort minimal. I am just against wasting excessive energy. To observe doesn&#39;t mean sitting still like a rock, who gave you this idea? When one can observe the whole picture calmly, one knows WHEN and HOW to take the MOST APPROPRIATE and EFFECTIVE action. I&#39;m just against the idea of chopping the door open when I can just open it with a tiny key.[/b]



I disagree. Well their a greate psychologist Boris sidis who is the farther of the smartest person who ever lived. Well he argued that the cause of all our problem is not thinking and that to truly achieve something you need to reason throught it and push against your exhaustion. See the brain cannot get tired and everytime we use it we take away neurological energy as this decreases you take energy from static or reserve energy. Well he said that if you can tap this energy you will be superior intellectually to other people well the proof is in his son who is considered a genius among geniuses. The more energy you use the more neurones you our using, well i think using more of the brain is better then using less. Althought reasoing is the most improtant factor and controlling your consciousness. 
i am doing the opposite to what you suggest well i am trying to force my consiousness to control everything and instead of using less of my brain i am using more.
Well the best example is using a laptop to do stuff when you can use a supercomputer. Yes the laptop can conserve more energy but the power source is so vast that even if you did use the supercomputer it would never run out. 
Well this gave me the idea that perfect observation means a rock 
http://www.plotinus.com/zhine_tibetan_dream_yoga.htm
When a child learns to walk he doesnt just look and them start walking he has to strain his mind to get the abillity to walk then it becomes second nature. The point is without dispencing large sums of energy you wont achieve anything worth achieveing i.e. you wont walk.




> And even a so-called "flawed belief" could serve some positive purpose. Simple as that. Again, you don&#39;t need to agree with me.[/b]



I would rather have nothing then something flawed. I got some art homework that i need doing so i would try your least energy theory with boris sidis reserve energy and see what works best.

----------


## Keeper

you would rather have nothing then something flawed?

Every house has leeks
Every Car has dents
Every life as Freeks
And not every room has vents

Every book a tear
Every shoe has wear
Not every clock stricks true
Not even the parts of you

----------


## Vex Kitten

OMG.... the things I could pick apart...   ::lol::  

Lets get this back on track before this thread gets moved to the philosophy forum.

Is it right to kill a DC?

Yes. 
Especially if it deserves it.

----------


## Keeper

okay

is it right to kill a DC?

No

why?

because murder without cause is wrong

----------


## becomingagodo

Nine more post and i would have beaten the is having sex in lucid dream considered cheating. 




> okay
> 
> is it right to kill a DC?
> 
> No
> 
> why?
> 
> because murder without cause is wrong[/b]



Yes but how can you murder something that doesnt exsist.

----------


## Keeper

You can see them, feel them, hear them and smell them. Who knows, maby you can even taste them.

Point is, to your mind and sences, they _are_ real. Everything you do to them is an act they will feel and respond to, just like a real person.

Do you see where I am going with this?

----------


## becomingagodo

> You can see them, feel them, hear them and smell them. Who knows, maby you can even taste them.
> 
> Point is, to your mind and sences, they are real. Everything you do to them is an act they will feel and respond to, just like a real person.
> 
> Do you see where I am going with this?[/b]



Yes but their not real.

----------


## Keeper

to who? What diffines "real"?

----------


## becomingagodo

> to who? What diffines "real"?[/b]



That such a stupid question i not going to anwser it. If you cant tell the difference between real and imaginary i feel sorry for you. Well you do believe in god

----------


## Keeper

once more Becoming has evaded the question

----------


## becomingagodo

> once more Becoming has evaded the question[/b]



Well just trying to get more post.

Well real is a social thing and socially dreaming is not reality so i guess dreaming or dream content is not real so DC our not meaning that we have the right to kill them.

----------


## Eminence~

> Yes but their not real.
> [/b]



Hush, you&#39;re destroying the delicate web of lies I&#39;ve built up around myself. I need my web of lies&#33;   ::wink::  

And I would have to say reality is in every way subjective. Most people would argue that dreams are not real. But we can learn things in dreams we can apply to the waking world. The line gets hazy here. So people could also say that dream characters are not real. But where do we draw the line here? I&#39;m definitely not denying that dream characters are figments of our imaginations. That&#39;s what they are. But does that make them less real? To me it does not.

----------


## BecomingCold216

Dreaming is something I "took up" because there are no rules, no right and wrong, no morals. I can do pretty much anything in my dream and not feel bad about it. No one gets hurt.

----------


## Serinanth

/rant on
(the following is a late night at work rant)

Ok so is killing a dream char ok.

We need to look into morality and what makes the dream wolrd different or akin from this one. Before I say anything else, this is just how I see things, I know my take on the dream world is different than most. But perhaps another perspective can help you to find your own answer.  What I hope to do is to make you ask questions and to question yourself, along with the world around you.  Read on knowing through my eyes the dream world is as real as this one, though it is based not based on the physical like this reality is, etherial in nature a thought holds much more power there. So that is my bias. 

I love seeing how other view the dreaming.  But again and again everyone saying how they love to needlessly kill people in their dreams with no feeling of remorse or the lack of compassion that prompted the act.  I duno, it just dosent seem right to me, it seems barbaric? Primitive? 
I grew up with video games so it isint that and its nothing like killing a video game character... your sitting in your living room with a controller in your hands in controll of a character that is not you. In a dream you are YOU&#33;... *coughs okwellmostofthetime*  You dont feel the sword in your hand, or see the light go out in their eyes in a video game.. 

I think all this is going to accomplish is me asking more questions.. *sigh*

So... reality is based on the social interaction of others?  0_o

What happens when I go on a hike, deep in the woods and there is no one to observe my actions, by this I mean sentient beings that can confirm or deny my actions and later recount what happened.

So when I step off the path in the deep woods and walk, does my reality then become a dream? Sure I could bring my camera and bring back pictures to the people here. But I could do the same in the dream world.  Just as I cannot bring proof of my actions in this world to the dreaming nor can I bring proof of the dreaming to this world.

The only thing that carries back in forth are our memories. 
What is a past memory with no physical proof of its existance?  A dream?
If my memories of dreams long past and experiences here were shown to some one else, would they be able to determine which was from this world and which was from the dreaming? Ok ok .. so the ones im flying around obviously yes, but say the more mundane dreams where nothing extraordinary occurs.

Morals.  

It was said that we learn morals in this world. While I do agree I must also say that in my experience I have learned much of morality from both realities. I grew up with lucid dreams. I didnt know what they were untill I was much older, as a child it was confusing to grow up in both realities.  My dream is akin to this world in that there are concequences.  Its just how I experience the dream world, probably because it developed into what it is now over the years and through growing up dealing with two realities.


I wish I could have that godlike controll that some of you get, but it just does not work like that for me, the more lucid I become, the more clarity I have the harder it is to bend the rules.  Everything takes effort in my dreams, telekinesis, and all that goes with the control of matter, and even flight. But I dont mind exerting the effort.

I feel more free as I fly as a dragon, the air rushing over my wings and lift they generate, the warmth of the sun on my back, the fridged cold air in my lungs and the pull of gravity on me as a whole.  Doing the superman? I duno.. its lacking.. in that I dont feel gravitys tug and its effortless...

I guess having some rules to bend in my opinion makes one feel more free than having no rules at all.

Of Rage and Tranquility

Even tranquility cannot save you from some things.  There are things out there that wont care how calm and how at  peace you are. However... with tranquility comes clarity and with clarity comes focus of mind. We all know how powerful that is in a world that is more etherial.  But even with that some things will hurt you regardless of how much control you have, things that wont care if you tell them its a dream, they will just nod smile and use that fact that none of us have total control over our minds and will leap on the smallest shadow of a doubt to your abilities. Unfortunatly im one of those lucky bastards (insert sarcasm) that feels pain in the dreaming.  We all know what pain can do to ones focus  :wink2:  Sometimes standing your ground will get you in a world of hurt, it all depends on the situation and the complexity of the being of thing you face.  Sometimes rage wont help either, when you are out classed charging into a hopeless battle might just have you waking up here feeling like crap, or it might leave you in one of those dreams you cannot wake up from =/.

Even if we met face to face you cannot prove to me you exist. A dream character can do everything you can do. Yeah even killing me, I get shot in the head or pushed off a building and I die in the dream world I wake up. Whats to say I will not wake up if you do the same to me here. None of us really know for FACT what is beyond death, not the scientists, not the religions....Hrrmmm mebby we should ask the atheists? Nahh I doubt they know for fact either. No one has come back from complete brain death and told us what happens. 

The arrogant scientists say that if somethings real then we can measure and prove it. 

While right now we can probe into the brain and see which areas are active and such there is still no way to prove that the voice in your head exists...OR how it is you are able to hear sound when there is none. Funny thing is, your repeating everything I say in your head to understand all this, you do it when some one speaks to you too. 

But but... I wake up here every day&#33; How can this not be real.

Try waking up in the dream world in the same place a couple of times, or wake up only to find that you can wake up again.. >_< I hate those nested dreams heeh. 

I suppose you can call this the real deal because you spend so much time here so thats cool with me. 

For me your all just dream characters in a really long and mundane dream where my spirit is only able to interact with this physical world via the amplification that a brain provides. 

Besides my father taught me to treat others with respect untill the prove to you otherwise that you shouldent.  After that... @#&#036;% em. (not litrally.. get your mind out of the gutter.) 

No, killing for no reason is wrong here or in the dream world.  
What if one of the people you kill turns out was your spirit guide or whatever you want to call those beneficial dream characters that seem to know way to much and have eyes too intelligent. 

I guess I will shut up for now if this was in any way contradictory or confusing or made no sense... welcome to my world.  :wink2:  

Dammit... 

I guess killing a dream character to some of you is just like rampaging on people lower level than you on a world of warcraft pvp server, that is untill the lvl 60&#39;s start camping you HAAH.  

And thats how retarded I am.  It took a mention of world of warcraft for me to figure out my stance on this topic.


So it comes down to this... 
Is killing a dream character right?

Its your choice.

Are you the coward that attacks only those that have no chance of standing up to you? If you are, just remember its your choice to be the coward.

Or do you take on a challenge and stand up to something that is going to fight back, if you are lucid enough... create an opponent you can feel proud to have defeated.


/rant off

----------


## becomingagodo

> The arrogant scientists say that if somethings real then we can measure and prove it. 
> 
> While right now we can probe into the brain and see which areas are active and such there is still no way to prove that the voice in your head exists...OR how it is you are able to hear sound when there is none. Funny thing is, your repeating everything I say in your head to understand all this, you do it when some one speaks to you too. [/b]



Well look at your arrogances. Seriously if you think the voices in your head our real then you need some help.




> So it comes down to this... 
> Is killing a dream character right?
> 
> Its your choice.
> 
> Are you the coward that attacks only those that have no chance of standing up to you? If you are, just remember its your choice to be the coward.
> 
> Or do you take on a challenge and stand up to something that is going to fight back, if you are lucid enough... create an opponent you can feel proud to have defeated.[/b]



This is really stupid. Well if you havent notice DC dont exsist for me it like arguing you should play games because the AI is really weak.




> Even if we met face to face you cannot prove to me you exist. [/b]



Their a difference between proof and evidence like their tons of evidence for you exsisting. This is stupid anyway dreams are not real and if you can tell the difference then i would give up trying to lucid dream. Their is a clear line between real and imaginary dreams are imaginary.

----------


## Keeper

Becoming, state in your own words what "Real" is. Not a dictonery deffinition, or someones quote. just plan and simple: What is real?

----------


## becomingagodo

> Becoming, state in your own words what "Real" is. Not a dictonery deffinition, or someones quote. just plan and simple: What is real?[/b]



Well something that exsist independently of me i.e. you exsist independently of me if i die your still alive but a DC doesnt because if i die the DC dies.

----------


## Keeper

thats not an answer, but I see what you are saying (though I disagree)

How do you diffine real?

----------


## becomingagodo

> Becoming, state in your own words what "Real" is. Not a dictonery deffinition, or someones quote. just plan and simple: What is real?[/b]



You ask what is real i gave you the anwser not a deffinaition.




> thats not an answer, but I see what you are saying (though I disagree)
> 
> How do you diffine real?[/b]



Now you want me to define it again i.e. give a definaition.

I didnt think it was possible but keeper getting more dumb. Well you define what real because
[quote] Their is tons of evidence for it exsisting and the something exsist independently of me i.e. you exsist independently of me if i die your still alive but a DC doesnt because if i die the DC dies.[quote]
The point is how is god real. anwser that keeper. 

P.S. well i just wanted to show keeper double standard like saying he a scientist and rejecting evolution which as i say has a much proof as Einstein theory of general relativity.

----------


## Keeper

... what?

I fear I may be acting rude right now, but what part of "in your own words, how do you define real" did you not get?

How is God real? Because of the overwhelming evidence for His existance as explained in the Bible, and the fact that Evolution has been proven to be false, thus indicating He must exist for life to have both immerged and apear in its many shapes

now, Becoming, tell me what "real" means

----------


## becomingagodo

> what?
> 
> I fear I may be acting rude right now, but what part of "in your own words, how do you define real" did you not get?
> 
> How is God real? Because of the overwhelming evidence for His existance as explained in the Bible, and the fact that Evolution has been proven to be false, thus indicating He must exist for life to have both immerged and apear in its many shapes
> 
> now, Becoming, tell me what "real" means[/b]



See you base your belife on fantasy. See your using selective attention that why i never be able to give you a defination of what is real. Last time i checked no scientific paper on Creationism has never been put into a peer science review so it hasent been disproven. Scientifically fantasy is this




> In short, psychology differs from physical sciences in this, that its facts, the facts of consciousness are not of a material nature.[/b]



See where it say it not material nature it doesnt exsist in nature, well that the opposite things that exsist in nature is real.
See i use scientific objective evidence to define what real like laws of physics, big bang e.t.c. you use your own belife the bible intelligent design. It like arguing with a child, well your confrimation biased is really funny.

----------


## Keeper

I would like to point out to everyone that once again Becoming has not answered the question for reasons that he alone knows but we all can suspect

now, Becoming, are you going to answer or continue to side step what I am asking you?

----------


## becomingagodo

> I would like to point out to everyone that once again Becoming has not answered the question for reasons that he alone knows but we all can suspect
> 
> now, Becoming, are you going to answer or continue to side step what I am asking you?[/b]



You really want the anwser. Nothing real reality itself is define by the smallest units of quanta which have something called a wavefunction and that collaspses into classical. Unlike intelligent design this view has lots of evidence like double slit test, EPR, quantum erazer test e.t.c.

----------


## Keeper

now, dose that mean that something you can touch is real, or something you cant is fake?

----------


## becomingagodo

> now, dose that mean that something you can touch is real, or something you cant is fake?[/b]



You cant touch nothing because nothing real.

----------


## Keeper

so, if you can feel something, is it real?

----------


## becomingagodo

> so, if you can feel something, is it real?[/b]



No it a hallucination

----------


## Keeper

so there is no reality?

----------


## becomingagodo

Well yes

----------


## Keeper

so, what makes killing a normal human and a DC so different?

----------


## becomingagodo

> so, what makes killing a normal human and a DC so different?[/b]



Because DC are phantasy and normal people are nothing.

----------


## Keeper

and what is the difference between faqntasy and nothing? If anything, isn&#39;t fantisy _more_ then nothing?

----------


## becomingagodo

> and what is the difference between faqntasy and nothing? If anything, isn&#39;t fantisy more then nothing?[/b]



No

----------


## Keeper

no?

----------


## Gez

Mind melt ...:/

----------


## becomingagodo

their both nothing

----------


## Keeper

so, is there any real difference between killing a DC and a person?

----------


## becomingagodo

> so, is there any real difference between killing a DC and a person?[/b]



I really dont know what your talking about.

----------


## Keeper

if people are nothing, and DC&#39;s are nothing, then is there a difference between killing one or the other

----------


## becomingagodo

> if people are nothing, and DC&#39;s are nothing, then is there a difference between killing one or the other[/b]



I really dont know what your talking about.

----------


## Keeper

the topic

----------


## O'nus

As a passionate lover of psychology and philosophy, I would say that killing a dream character could represent a few things:  (Keep in mind I am assessing this from a psychological standpoint, not spiritual, etc.)

If you killed a dream character, this most likely means one of the following:

1) You have come to emotional closure about the loss of a person in your life.  Or you have come to closure to a part of your personality which you detested (ie. the part of you that is perverted like your uncle Ned.. whom you killed in your dream).  

2) You feel that there is no possible way of negotiating with this certain person or part of your personality.  It feels that talking with, let&#39;s say Ned, is impossible and you just wish he was out of your life - so you kill him.  Or, you are conscious of your perverted ways that are similar to Ned&#39;s but you have no idea how to solve or deal with and you just wish it would go away - so you kill it.

Those two are the most likely of cases.  The following would be more abstract and rare interpretations:

3) You are a sadistic freak and have mental problems.  Chances are this is not you reading my text because if this applied to yourself, you would most likely be in jail or dead because you killed yourself or got killed by the police in a sadistic shoot-out.  A rare case which I assume is about .2% prominent in the entire Earth&#39;s population.  (No, you are not sadistic.. you probably just think it is cool to be sadistic.. which brings me to the next case..)

4) You wish you were a different person of different characteristics.  You find it difficult to deal with the people in your surroundings and tend to simply avoid or accomodate conflicts with these people.  You wish you had the courage to "just kill them&#33;"  This case can often become exaggerated and becomes the person&#39;s projected shadow.. we can see this in the case of Hitler (assuming he is not an "insane and evil person" like in case 3 but more of a hurt individual who projects his pain to the world) or you can see it manifest in emo-like teenagers who typically have difficulties adapting with their families or society.

5) This may be characteristic of a certain ritual you have read or believe in.  You may wish to attain the characterstics gained from such a ritual (killing a person).  The common characteristics would be power or manhood.  If anyone thinks this applies to them, please elaborate for me.

I think these may cover the essentials.  I hope I have been enlightening.

~

----------


## Keeper

indeed

thank you for insight

----------


## becomingagodo

Behaviorism what aload of crap. http://www.uvm.edu/~chmartin/lecter_freud.html 
fraud vs hannibal who will win.

----------


## Keeper

:Off topic:

----------


## O'nus

> Behaviorism what aload of crap. http://www.uvm.edu/~chmartin/lecter_freud.html 
> fraud vs hannibal who will win.
> [/b]



Relevance..?

I liked the page though - hillarious.   ::D: 

~

----------


## becomingagodo

> Relevance..?
> 
> I liked the page though - hillarious. [/b]



Well you cant give people motives i.e. will never trully know someone would kill a DC. Also your assuming their more then a video game character now i kill them does that give me one of the profiles.

----------


## Serinanth

W00T&#33;&#33;&#33; O&#39;nus Im glad you still hang around here&#33; Its nice to have some one add a bit of psychology to us loonies.

Well.. first. 
I ask you to please not call my views stupid.  I have not insulted you nor anyone else here, as my post said. They are my views Im just here to add my input to hopefully make you ask more questions. 
In all  honesty I could simply respond to you "Well your a doodie face" Attack my views I encourage it, but explain how and why you got to that conclusion the more input I get the more I can analyze my thoughts  :wink2: 

As for the arrogance... I think you missed the point.
Sience is the continuing persuit for knowledge, to understand the world around us a true scientist must always ask.

Is it possible?

Unfortunatly there are many that have stopped asking questions. They beleive their thories or the theories of others to be fact and they no longer question them or continue to try to prove it... If it dosen exist you have to be able to prove that it dosent.  
I made no attack in my statement only mentinoning a simple truth, if you do however beleive that we have learned all we can learn and that all of the current theories and stances on the very nature of the universe, including how it was created is FACT... Then you sir... are arrogant.  If not, =D no worries. Seriously discuss the topic dont try to antagonise me into a personal flame war ;P

The Voice.

I did not say voices... I said Voice...

You dont hear it? 
As you read, or as you think?  
Am I the only one? 
If you dont hear your own thoughts then perhaps you really are just a dream character.
As you read this you dont hear a voice saying all of the words I have written? 
When you read a friends IM you dont hear their voice in stead of your own as you read?
In order for you to be real, you have to be able to hear your thoughts.  =D  Im sure you can hear it, you just havent payed attention to it. Its there trust me, just listen as you think


You said that DC&#39;s dont exist to you.   Yet you seem to be able to go on a rampage and kill things you dont beleive exists... To kill something it must exist I think...


How can you know that a dream character dies when you do? 
It proves nothing.  If your friend dies, and you still exist then you are obviously the dreamer and he was a dream character. 
If you are a dream character and the dreamer dies, you would cease to exist as you say.  That means you wont be aware of you ever existing when it happens.  

Ok, just put yourself in these shoes, try. 

Imagine coming home from school or work, whatever it is you do that takes you away from your loved ones.
Whn you get home a person that you have been friends with for as long as you can remember is in the livingroom, and they look disturbed.  You feel it instantly deep inside when you look at them.
You ask whats wrong and they only respond with a worried look. You go to them and sit beside her/him.  

This isint some one you just met, or some one you have fuzzy memoreis of, you know them. 

They ask. "What is going to happen to me when you wake up." 

Something clenches in your gut and your mind races. This is the only reality you know, you have dreams you sleep, you wake up.

The two of you embrace one another for a long time, and you can feel how afraid that person is, not just the slight shake to their frame, or the irregularity of their breath its something you feel in your heart.

Then you wake up here... And youve never gone back to that place but its stuck in your head.

What then? 

Thats one of the things thats happened to me. So I hope that helps you understand why I think the way I do and dont just think me some stupid ass...

I dont quite understand why your brought up the double slit test, all that proved was that light currently defined as photons expresses a duality in its nature, it acts as a wave form and it also behaves like a particle.

Your knowledge of quantum behavior is comendable, but your example only give strength to my view.

Duality.

What it really does come down to though... Is that if you are slaughtering innocent people, those that would have no chance in defending themselves you really are weak.   So what you ended their lives, it meant nothing to you so what have you accomlished, you feel better bcause you have simply "killed" 

Please, seriously think about this, there is no honor in smiting those that do not deserve your wrath.

I may not be a moderator now or anything... Im just a wanderer, but I have a lucid task for you.

Create an opponent that will serve as a challenge to you and defeat it.

Or

Open your mind, lower your defenses pretend to be the vunerable whelp.  Face a nightmare, one of those faceless monsters that inhabits the dream wolrd.

Thats your Task...

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## Eminence~

Serinanth, the part where you talked about your personal experience with a DC really makes me quite sad. I&#39;ve had quite a few of these moments, so I can understand fully where you&#39;re coming from.  :Sad:

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## Serinanth

Its ok Eminence, just as long as you remember those moments, thats whats importatnt, its really all we can do for the loved ones that we loose.

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## O'nus

becomingagodo & Serinanth:

First, becomingagodo:





> "Well you cant give people motives i.e. will never trully know someone would kill a DC. Also your assuming their more then a video game character now i kill them does that give me one of the profiles."[/b]



I honestly have no idea what you are saying here.  Can you re-phrase this..?

Serinanth:

I am confused as to wether or not your post was to me.  If it is - where did I call your opinion stupid..?  I do not understand..?

~

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## Keeper

what gets me is the fact he says that both are nothing, so what makes killing one worse then killing the other?

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## Serinanth

nope not directed at you O&#39;nus, I was just glad to see your still about  :wink2:

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## flight

> You said that DC&#39;s dont exist to you.   Yet you seem to be able to go on a rampage and kill things you dont beleive exists... To kill something it must exist I think...
> [/b]



I kill people in video games, I don&#39;t believe they exist. 
Well to me only as a lot of 1&#39;s and 0&#39;s programmers, artists, and producers/designers put together, I wouldn&#39;t say they exist or have consciousness although they can look real. LDing is a fulse reality some a reflection on true reality but fake like an emulated hologram in your mind created by your mind. There is no underlining fabric no true stable laws and there for no stable rules or consequences for your actions, if you kill someone you can bring them back or that thought created by your mind that you killed, just as a cheat on a video game. Infact video games have more stable laws to it than dreams do for the average person not a programmer. Everything you dream about is really not a true reality, kill a magical talking computer will not mean you killed one in a true reality but a fulse one, yes it looks and feels very real some of the times, but that does not make it a true reality. If it was true that killing a DC was really killing someone in a true reality somewhere, then every reality you dream about is true, everything you see is true in a dream is true, everything you do in a dream is true within some reality, and wich I would say that is a fulse statement wouldn&#39;t you. Thats just my view on the things you guys are talking about.

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## Indecent Exposure

Dream Characters are nothing, merely elements of your subconcious
I wouldnt do it myslef
but if you do it, oh well
dont over analyse this simple action
its NOTHING.

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## Lord Toaster

Depends on the DC. If it&#39;s an anonymous DC with no face, or some kind of Orc or Vampire (I&#39;ve had several dreams killing armies of fantasy beings) then I think it&#39;s OK. BUT... if you enjoy killing someone you know close up and seeing their face and being really violent.... well.... then I think it&#39;s a bit wrong. I hope it doesn&#39;t carry into the real world

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## really

> Dream Characters are nothing, merely elements of your subconcious
> I wouldnt do it myslef
> but if you do it, oh well
> dont over analyse this simple action
> its NOTHING.
> [/b]



Thankyou.





> What diffines "real"?
> [/b]



Nothing defines &#39;real&#39;, that is the problem. So we have to define it ourselves (that&#39;s why there are so many different opinions on this topic) - what do you think a reality check is? 

Anyway, I&#39;m not sure, I mean science can prove dreams are only in our minds can&#39;t it?

And I think we might be confusing &#39;real&#39; with &#39;true&#39;...

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## Keeper

reality and real arn&#39;t exactly the same

dreaming is another reality, were you can touch ,taste, see,hear, feal and "sence" things, often more vividly then waking life. Can do deffine real without those words?

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## Marcus Wong

> reality and real arn&#39;t exactly the same
> 
> dreaming is another reality, were you can touch ,taste, see,hear, feal and "sense" things, often more vividly then waking life. Can do deffine real without those words?
> [/b]



I&#39;m totally with you on this. It seems to me many people wouldn&#39;t consider possibilities beyond their understandings. Many people base reality only on our physical world and cannot grasp the idea of existence without physical bodies.

I have a question for those who dismiss dream world as a reality and think that killing DCs is not killing anything at all. In our dream world, we create our dream characters, we create their looks, their expressions, their responses and so on. Who can say for certain that we haven&#39;t also created their feelings and consciousness, albeit only for a short while? In our dreamworld, our consciousness is split into multiple personalities and these are manifested as different dream characters. These characters come from ourselves, but then, they are also individuals.

It&#39;s the same idea of a mother conceiving a child. Before the child is born, it&#39;s a part of the woman&#39;s body. After  the child is born, it carries its own consciousness. The child&#39;s personalities and consciousness come from the parents, but still the child is an individual who has their own feelings.

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## really

> It seems to me many people wouldn&#39;t consider possibilities beyond their understandings. Many people base reality only on our physical world and cannot grasp the idea of existence without physical bodies.
> [/b]



Well sometimes it is not needed. To &#39;consider possibilities&#39; is a suggestion with infinite consequences. And existing without physical bodies is exactly what the dream world is (and the astral plane too).





> I have a question for those who dismiss dream world as a reality and think that killing DCs is not killing anything at all. In our dream world, we create our dream characters, we create their looks, their expressions, their responses and so on. Who can say for certain that we haven&#39;t also created their feelings and consciousness, albeit only for a short while? In our dreamworld, our consciousness is split into multiple personalities and these are manifested as different dream characters. These characters come from ourselves, but then, they are also individuals.
> [/b]



That&#39;s an interesting point. But how will we ever know the truth? In my opinion, the dream world has no logic, it&#39;s just from what your mind has experienced. Meaning that a dream character in one dream could have as much meaning and significance as a brick wall in another. So what could tell life from death in the dreamworld? 

We shouldn&#39;t dwell on such a thing.





> It&#39;s the same idea of a mother conceiving a child. Before the child is born, it&#39;s a part of the woman&#39;s body. After  the child is born, it carries its own consciousness. The child&#39;s personalities and consciousness come from the parents, but still the child is an individual who has their own feelings.
> [/b]



That&#39;s physical talk isn&#39;t it?

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## lefkos

but the only one im gonna kill is my old teacher or the so called tough guys on my school.
but  i cant kill friend or see them suffer its to painfull and maybe im gonna cry because its so realistic but if  i  see that a  dc kill one of my friends  i am gonna change in the berzerker rage status and kick his ass

but thanks to this topic i realized killing in a dream isnt fun its more fun to explore or make fun and helping people that have a  hard time.

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## flight

Just because all your senses are involved doesn&#39;t make it an existing reality somewhere, but can give you the feeling of a existing reality that is actually out there. Different realitys have different base laws that they all follow, dreams have no true laws or foundation that they really follow at all, they in a way can go in any direction. We individualize are consciousness through the filter of our nervous system, so what can be happening when dreaming does not have to be a real conscious reality that really existes somewhere other than our own personal reality. When dreaming it&#39;s just an outcome of molecular chemical processes in the brain and definitely not a existing conscious state with any true substance that actually exists other than in our mind. I don&#39;t have a bias towards this being the only reality (RL), just because it is what I experience all the time, I know there is way more to it than that, and this reality we live in. But dreaming is something we experience personally with our subconscious minds and I don&#39;t believe that, this personal reality extends beyond.
EDIT - I should add- say it was possible, I think we don&#39;t have the ability yet or maybe never to have it extend beyond.

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## Keeper

so, what is real?

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## becomingagodo

> so, what is real?[/b]



Were going round in cycles.

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## Keeper

because no-one is answering. Tell me what real is

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## Eminence~

That&#39;s the thing, Keeper- the term "real" is subjective. Nobody is going to be able to define it in a way that satisfies you because it is a different feeling to everybody.

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## becomingagodo

> That&#39;s the thing, Keeper- the term "real" is subjective. Nobody is going to be able to define it in a way that satisfies you because it is a different feeling to everybody[/b]



Postmodernism

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## really

> because no-one is answering. Tell me what real is
> [/b]



If you really want to know, just google it. Here are some of the definitions I found: 


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Answers.com &#064; Jan 15 2007, 4&#58;29 PM)</div>



> *&#39;Real&#39;* _adj._  
> 
> *1. 
> a.	Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence: real objects; a real illness. 
> b.	True and actual; not imaginary, alleged, or ideal: real people, not ghosts; a film based on real life. 
> c.	Of or founded on practical matters and concerns: a recent graduate experiencing the real world for the first time.
> 
> 2.	Genuine and authentic; not artificial or spurious: real mink; real humility. 
> 3.
> ...



I sill don&#39;t see why we have to prove dream characters are real...they&#39;re not, to anyone else but ourselves. And if that, only in a dream. Which means we should hold full responsibility of them.

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## Keeper

now, what is actuality, True, Genuine and authentic, etc.

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## Marcus Wong

I can see many people think that what&#39;s in the mind stays in the mind. I&#39;d like to share a little story of mine which shows that our thoughts might not just "stay in".

I was sitting in a vet clinic with my cat because of his eye problem. There came another man with his golden retriever.  They sat down and the dog was so quiet and gentle. I looked at the dog, suddenly it reminded me of a few very brutal pictures I saw on the web of a golden retriever being slaughtered and eaten by his own master in mainland China. The horrid scene just jumped in my mind for no reasons and it started playing there. I was quite disturbed then. Then I saw the golden retriever in the clinic start barking and twirling around and seemed very disturbed too. His master tried to calm him down but couldn&#39;t. I intuitively realized what was going on and I told myself to STOP thinking about the sad incidence. The moment I stopped the thoughts, the dog calmed down almost immediately. The conclusion? No one can draw one for certain.

I&#39;m not trying to prove anything or convince anyone of anything. I only want to bring out a few things which many people have never thought about before. We shouldn&#39;t just take everything before us without questioning. Our eyes could deceive us. Our worldly knowledge could deceive us. Science could also be deceiving.

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## Alban

In many of my dreams I have a mission to kill someone, usually female, and it usually involves me dismemebering them with the swings of a very long sharp sword.
However this has only ever been in non-lucids.
When I&#39;m lucid I have absolutely no desire to do any harm to anyone at all.

I have no solid argument for this but I do belive there is something not quite right with consciously engaging in lucids purely for the purpose of maiming and killing.
I am starting to think, though, that my subconscious must be a misogynist.

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## Spectre

Why would it _not_ be ok?  It&#39;s not like you&#39;re harming an actual person.  DCs are just figments of your imagination, something that your mind is created....they&#39;re in no way real.

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## Keeper

how do you know that?

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## really

> how do you know that?
> [/b]



How don&#39;t you know that? Why do you bother asking? You&#39;re just as sure as we are.

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## Keeper

... what?

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## really

What&#39;s the point of asking such questions? "How do you know that" "define real" "define that" Where are you going with all this?

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## Ben_

Killing in a Dream,.. It creats Karma, bad karma....
NOt as strong as killing some in real life, but it creats a mental seed.

I know is fun.. but,, no good for you.

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## h0ju

This went from opinion on one thing to semantics on many. clearly its a tossed up subject much like dream sex/cheating or dream anything for that matter. I say you should find your own answer inside  and try not to impose it upon others. I feel lucid dreams say a lot about us and our morals. If societies constraints were removed in waking life as they are in LDing what would you do?......

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## Alban

> Killing in a Dream,.. It creats Karma, bad karma....
> NOt as strong as killing some in real life, but it creats a mental seed.
> 
> I know is fun.. but,, no good for you.
> [/b]



This is pretty much where I&#39;m coming from as well.
I&#39;m not saying what&#39;s right or wrong for anyone else- that&#39;s up to each individual- or debating whether DC&#39;s are real or not, but for me, personally, consciously indulging in destructive negative behaviour is not a good thing, whether I do it in real life or in my head.

I don&#39;t want myself getting used to the feeling of killing people for fun.

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## Keeper

> What&#39;s the point of asking such questions? "How do you know that" "define real" "define that" Where are you going with all this?
> [/b]



because if dreams arn&#39;t real there are no consiquences of any (or most) natures, but if they are, what makes killing them any different from killing a normal person?

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## Eminence~

My dreams are real to me, and that&#39;s all that metters.  ::D:

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