# Lucid Dreaming > DV Academy > Current Courses > DILD >  >  Zach's workbook

## Zachlew

*Background:*
I am 29. I had a couple lucid dreams when I was a kid which let me know they are possible. Before 5 years ago, I had no clue how to intentionally have lucid dreams. Until I stumbled on to a website with how-tos for lucid dreaming. I instantly had a huge interest in all things dreaming. I spent about a year reading about dreaming, practising different techniques, and had about 12 lucid dreams(I would get the exact number but I threw away all my dream journals). About 4 years ago, I stopped dreaming due to smoking ruining my dream recall. I have since quit smoking but I have been focused on other activities. Over the past 3 months, I have had 6 unintentional lucid dreams, 1 fake lucid dream, and some very useful non-lucid dreams. I don't have any issues any more with dream recall. I normally remember 2-3 dreams a night without a dream journal but I don't like dreams occupying my mind. So, I have decided to start up recording dreams in a journal again. This is so I can get them on paper and out of my mind. I don't keep my new dream journal by my bed as making noise at night/morning annoys my spouse. I just write down whatever is still in my head sometime in the morning. I know this is not the most optimal way to accurately record my dreams but it is what it is. Lucid dreaming is an extra in my life and not my main focus. I really enjoy dreaming and find it at times very useful. But if it starts to consume too much time, I am going to dial it back. For now, I'm going to more intentionally try to lucid dream for a couple of reasons: to notice mind trends, to peak into my subconscious, for useful insights, and because it's pretty fun. I'm completely open to any advice from others if someone notices something I could change to help with my lucid dreaming practice.  

*Current Practice:*
Daytime State Check- I work from my computer so I created a simple script to randomly(between 20-60mins) make a sound. When I hear the sound I check to see if I am dreaming or not. I verify this by checking text to see if it changes and checking my hands to see if they are normal or not. I also check to see if I am dreaming when something odd happens(ie. switch doesn't work, light flickers, something stops working, car driving in the wrong lane, etc.)  

Night/Morning- Before bed, I normally drink some water and eat a banana. Drinking water helps wake me up after dreams and the banana somehow helps with dreaming(I'm not sure why but it does). Then sometime in the morning I write down my dreams.

Extra- I normally do 1-2 hours of meditation a day depending on how long my kids will let me. And much longer meditations on the weekends. (I know some people don't think meditation helps with lucid dreaming but I would say they are not mediating correctly. Meditation improves concentration, memory and awareness just like exercise improves strength, endurance, and flexibility. If that doesn't help lucid dreaming I don't know what would.)

*Aspirations:*
Continuous practice without being too frustrated by not getting desired results

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## FryingMan

Welcome, Zachlew!

Sorry for the delay in getting back to your first post!    It sounds like you know what your goals are and have a good practice to go about it.   

I generally also do not record now in the middle of the night, but what I do is keep a mental running list of dream key words/images that I try to maintain all the way to the final waking of the day.   With every new waking and more recall, I add to the list and run through it a few times before heading back to sleep.   I find that more often than not, a lot of the dreams survive until morning this way, and I think it's a really great workout for dream recall as well.

If you're doing *one* to *two* *hours* of meditation a day, you're at the front of the pack day-work wise.  I don't think you'll find anybody here on DV who thinks meditation doesn't help with LDing.    Many in fact promote it as *the* primary waking practice for all the reasons you mentioned.

What sort of meditation do you do, out of curiosity?

Most of the day work you mention shouldn't take up much time.   Neither does setting intention at night time to notice the dream state when dreaming.    On nights where you're feeling well-rested and you can sleep in, you might try setting intention to notice the wakings in the night and to re-set intention to get lucid, and/or perform DILD/WILD.

Feel free to your your workbook here to track your progress, set goals, and of course to ask any questions you may have!

Good luck!

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## Zachlew

Thanks FryingMan!

Good to know other members promote mediation. I must have read a few uncommon threads. I would spend much more time doing it if I had the time. Meditation is a holiday for the heart, it can be very enjoyable. My main meditation object would be mindfulness with breathing. I have a few others I cycle through if my main object starts getting dry or I am just spinning my wheels though.

Do you have any links to threads about the intentions you are talking about? I don't really do anything with intentions right now.

I'll try to update here as I go. I feel it may keep me going until I'm settled into a useful practice for me.

Here's a first quick update:
Only have the last 3 days in my new journal right now but I noticed 2 very common dream signs. At least they are things that have happened in a lot of dreams I can remember. Something about writing things down seems to help me notice obvious things I've been missing. First is driving in a car. I seem to do this a lot in my dreams. Second would be when other people are rushing me. I seem to have very pushy dream characters.

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## FryingMan

I can't point to any threads about intentions, but it's pretty simple: you just repeat a phrase to yourself to try to "set" in in your mind as something you want to do during the night.  Sort of like autosuggestion.   LaBerge talks about this in Exploring The World of Lucid Dreams.   He recommends the following ones, which I've more or less used during my entire practice every night:

+ "I have interesting and meaningful dreams" [modifications: particular kinds of dreams I want that night]

+ "I remember my dreams" [modifications: vivid dreams, long dreams, remember dreams completely, etc.]

+ "I notice wakings during the night, remain still, and recall my dreams" [this is my variant, the original one says "I wake up after every dream" but it can lead to actually fully waking up, and as I have issues from time to time with insomnia, I use my variant now].  I don't always do this one as it can be exhausting if done a lot, but it can lead to really great recall, since the best time to recall a dream is immediately after waking from it.

If your dream signs are particularly reliable, spending some time before bed (or throughout the day as you have time) reviewing dream signs and doing "daytime MILD" on those signs can be beneficial.   Basically, bring up the dream scene in your mind's eye, and see yourself noticing the dream sign and getting lucid.  Tell yourself "<XYZ> is a dream sign, it means I'm dreaming, if <XYZ> happens, I may be dreaming, …" etc.  Or simply visualize the dream sign and tell yourself "I'm dreaming!    I'm dreaming!   I'm dreaming!….".

I had good luck with doing this when I went through a very regular phase (practically every night) of appearing in my childhood home.  It can also set up a sort of feedback loop of incubating the sign to make it happen more, which would allow you to get lucid more as you get better at recognizing it.

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## Zachlew

I give that a try this week and see if it helps any. Thanks!

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## Zachlew

I figure I should try to do the long updates once a week since this will probably take a while. I'm guessing it's going to take a couple months before I start seeing noticeable changes.

Here's some tweaks to my practice:
-For state/reality checks I ask myself 'Am I dreaming or am I awake?' and then I try to prove it. It is basically the same as before but with a subtle difference in wording and action. This seems to work a little better for me.
-Before sleep I am taking a b-6 100mg vitamin when I run out of bananas. It seems to have the same effect.
-I added in the recommended intention method before falling asleep. I make sure I'm good and relaxed and then say to myself 'I will do a reality check and remember I am dreaming'. I say that about 3 to 5 times until it feels genuine and I also visualize myself doing a reality check in a dream from the day before. Then go to sleep.
-I also have tried 4 WBTB/WILDs.
-I also started to leave the room when I do a WBTB and record any dream recalls. It kills some time.

Progress:
My dream recall has already increased from recording dreams in a dream journal. I have been remembering 2 to 5 dreams a night depending on what your definition of a dream would be. Because I would say I have 3 good dreaming periods a night which I seem to have multiple different dream scenes or dreams in one dreaming period. 

I've been consistently waking up twice during the night(not really trying to do this...it just seems to happen after dreaming periods). Once at about 1.5-2hrs in which I normally remember a short dream. I will just remember my dream then repeat the intention method as before but this time adding in the visual of the recalled dream. Then I wake up again at about 5.5-6hrs in which I have been remembering very long dreams(normally multiple dreams inside one big dream). Since this was happening consistently I started trying a WBTB/WILD. The first 2 times I wasn't up that long (less than 5mins). Those 2 WILDs I would lay in bed for 1hr perfectly still but no luck. I tried extending the WBTB time from less than 5mins to about 15-20mins which was about the time it takes for me to record a long dream/dreams. Trying the other 2 WILDs after the longer periods seemed to help and I was starting to enter a dream but then fell asleep. I'm going to need a lot more work on WILDs but I don't think I'm going to be trying WILDs every night. Maybe WBTBs but probably not WILDs. 

I did have a lucid dream last night though! This seemed to work a lot faster than I thought it would(I'm guessing newbie luck). We'll see how things progress in the future.

Here's my short lucid dream from my dream journal (I kind of just ramble when I record my dreams so just bear with me):
I was going somewhere on a bike with a friend and it was pretty late at night and then I noticed the sky was getting brighter and it kind of looked like a drawing and I thought that wasn't right and then I knew I was dreaming and I jumped off my bike and started flying. My friend asked what I was doing and I said it was a dream. Then I flew up and there were some floating words which I flew though. Maybe this dream was a book?. The words were kind of like floating stacks of paper which slowed my down when trying to fly though them but then I got though and flew in between a telephone line and landed back on the ground. I looked up and there seemed to be too much stuff in the sky to fly but the sky did look really amazing so I started walking but wanted to go faster so I tried to zoom forward which I have never done before which was kind of like teleporting but I felt more like I was pulling the area in front of me to me. When I did this I took a deep breath and tried to zoom forward and when I did this I made a loud breath noise which startled my spouse and she woke me up thinking I was having a nightmare  :Sad:

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## FryingMan

Sounds great, keep up the good work!   Sticking with it without quitting is really important as all the effects of the daytime and nighttime work accumulates slowly over time.

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## Zachlew

Thanks FryingMan! I'll still working at it. Just doing 10+ state checks a day, a little intention before sleep/after awakings, and recording my dream recalls in my journal(about 2-3 a night). No new lucid dreams but did have a few useful non lucid ones.

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## Zachlew

Update:
Since my last update, I've been consistently recalling and recording 2-4 dreams a night. I have had 5 dreams where I noticed something was odd but ended up justifying the oddity with some reason (ie. saying my hand looked weird because it was injured). If only I did a reality check instead up justifying those I could of had few more lucid dreams but I guess hindsight is 20/20. I did have one dream where I did start to become lucid but it ended as soon as I noticed it was a dream. I'm slowly inching my way along though. I have noticed that the intentions do make a difference.

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## fogelbise

Hi Zachew. You seem to be on the right track. The only things I can think to add are in regards to your reality checks and setting intentions. On the reality checks gab recommends not flat out answering yourself "yeah…I'm awake" as it is more likely to also happen when you RC in a dream and just go on non-lucidly in your dream. I think she suggests when setting out to do RC's throughout the day, after RCs that indicate that you are awake, simply saying 'hmmm…the next time I am dreaming I RC and realize I am dreaming' or some variant.

On the intention setting, some feel it is important to remove "will" from your statement so that you mind doesn't consider it as 'I will do it at some point' versus something that you always do. Instead of 'I will do a reality check and remember I am dreaming' use instead 'I do reality checks and remember I am dreaming.'

Keep up the good practices!

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## Zachlew

Taking out the 'will' does make a little more sense than what I was doing. I'll give that and the added bit to the RCs a try. Thanks fogelbise!

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## Zachlew

Update: 
I tried a new method I read about on here called SSILD last night and it worked first try! And not only did it work, it worked great! All of my lucid dreams up to this point have been between 1-5mins of lucidity but this one was about 30mins (but really it felt much longer). I'm going to figure out later today how to write a dream journal entry and link it here. It's a bit long and I don't want to put it all in here. The second try of SSILD last night didn't work but I think I was way too excited from the first lucid to do it correctly. The person who wrote up the SSILD method seems to think the method will improve chances of lucidity for anyone at any level. I think I'm going to test that out and use this as my main WBTB method now. 

I had a few interesting dream characters that I kind of wanted to ask about. I don't know what is the norm...if there is even a norm in dreams lol. I'll add those a little later too and see if anyone has any thoughts.

2nd Update: 
Here's the link
http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/zach...5-lucid-65888/

So there's 3 dream characters that seemed to stand out (see the link for more details):
Dark creepy guy- He stayed in the shadows and wouldn't let me do what I was trying to do. What the heck?
My dad- He didn't say a whole lot but helped me do whatever I was trying to do. Do some DCs become side kicks? None of the others were helpful.
Glowing girl- She knew I was dreaming and could read my mind???

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## fogelbise

Congratulations Zachlew!! SSILD was what really got me started LDing in adulthood. 30 minutes is a great achievement!! I will move over to your DJ link and maybe respond more about the dream characters there but in general I am pretty much in the camp that they are just part of our subconscious. There are a number of people on here do think that they can be something more including members like sivason and PercyLucid.

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## Zachlew

Thanks fogelbise! 

My rational side says that it is mostly if not all part of my subconscious but I am open to other possibilities too. I also kind of see the mind like a wireless device where in can receive external data if tuned into it. I don't think there will be a way to prove it one way or the other so I am not going to spend a whole lot of time speculating. I would rather just experience it and see for myself!

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## Zachlew

*First month recap*
This is what I have recorded in my journal.
Dreams recalled:  71 (there were a few days where I didn't record anything)
Lucid dreams: 2 - DILD
WBTB: 21
WILD attempts: 4

*Current Practice:*
Daytime Reality Check- When I hear the sound from my random alarm I do a reality check. I genuinely check my surroundings to see if something is off. Then I check text to see if it changes, checking my hands to see if they are normal or not, and/or think about what I was doing 15mins ago. I check to see if I am dreaming when something odd happens or seems dream like. I have also been doing reality checks for no reason at all. If I see some text or a digital clock I'll test it out. (I haven't really got the hang of thinking 'hmmm…when I am dreaming I do reality checks and realize I am dreaming' but I try that too)

Night/Morning- Before bed, I normally drink some water, take a b6 vitamin, and/or eat a banana. Then right before sleep I repeat the intention 'I do reality checks and realize I am dreaming' a couple of times. I normally visualize lucid dreams where I actually did this to make it feel more genuine. Then about 5 hours in I wake up naturally after a dream. I do a WBTB then by getting up and recording any dreams(this is normally only 10-15mins). Now, I have started doing SSILD after the WBTB since it seems to work for me. Then record any other dreams sometime in morning.

Extra- 1-2 hours of meditation a day. I also do mindfulness with breathing as often as I can remember it throughout the day.

*Aspiration:*
Since this seems like a long term practice my aspiration hasn't changed.
Continuous practice without being too frustrated by not getting desired results.

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## fogelbise

Nice! I like your current practice! I recommend posting the exact steps that you used for that first SSILD session that was so successfulnot only so that you don't forget exactly what you did, but also for others to learn from! I may even want to tweak how I do it. I tweaked SSILD and have my own way of doing it but I would recommend that you try to replicate what you did since it was so successful hitting right away and with the length of your lucid. It sounded like you only did a few cycles on that occasion, which sounded like it was shorter than the standard technique as posted and that may be a key for you. There could have been some other variables though.

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## Zachlew

Good idea fogelbise! 

*My first session of WBTB + SSILD:*
I unintentionally woke up a little earlier than normal. It was about 4 hours into sleep but I normally get up at about 5 hours in. I got up and walked into the other room to record my recalled dreams (about 15mins up). I came back to bed. I calmed my body down and got into a comfortable position on my back. I then cycled through each of those three senses about 5 times (I wasn't counting so it might have been more). First cycle was about 5-10secs on each sense and by the last was 30-45secs each. For each cycle, I went slower and more relaxed. So for the eyes, I would look forward into my eye lids while feeling my eyes sinking deeper into the eye sockets each time. For the ears, they would pop a little and then I would listen to the ringing tinnitus noise which would get louder each time(side note this is actually a meditation I do sometimes called 'nada yoga' or 'sound of silence' but I didn't stay focused on it). Then for the body, I would relax all my muscles and feel my body sinking deeper into the bed each cycle. Each cycle was slower, deeper, and more relaxed than the one before. Each cycle was done really lazily and I was not really trying to notice anything. I also didn't expect this to work at all so I didn't have any thoughts about the future (ie. excited about becoming lucid, what I want to do when I become lucid, etc). Then after about 5 cycles I just rolled over, got comfortable and tried to sleep. 

I felt like I was awake for about 10-15mins and not really sleeping. So I checked my alarm clock and it was an hour (I must have fallen asleep). I did one more cycle then rolled over to try to sleep again. After what felt like 1min I checked the clock again and it was all messed up. I was then lucid and it must have been right at the beginning of my REM cycle because it lasted for about 30mins of lucidity.

Here is the link to the DV SSILD tutorial for anyone that wants to try it.

This is the updated tutorial but I couldn't find it posted on DV

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## fogelbise

That is a nice overview of SSILD with your own little flavor added for each of the senses!  I like the sinking eyes adjustment and especially the relaxing body for the tactile sense! Being able to tie in your nada yoga meditation experience for the hearing sense definitely seems like a bonus. I also find that the initial cycles can set up an easier transition after the next awakening if it doesn't produce a result in the sleep cycle you enter from the initial cycles.

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## Zachlew

Week 5 update:
I was pretty busy last week. I did continue to do RCs and record dream recalls but not much else.

DJ question:
I have a good number of dreams recorded now. Recording has definitely improved my recall and it has helped me notice my most common awakenings(1 and 3 am). Is there anything else I should use my DJ for?

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## fogelbise

They can be fun to look back at but also can help you to identify general or specific dream signs to improve your ability to catch dream signs and realize that you are dreaming more often when other elements are also in place and going your way.

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## Zachlew

How do you work with dream signs that you never see in normal day to day life?
ie. I see friends from my home town a lot in dreams but I haven't actually hung out with any of them in years.

Some of my common dream signs:
skateboarding 
driving a car
hanging out with old friends
pushy DCs or DCs trying to fight me
things multiplying (noticing one plane in the sky and then seeing 5 others things flying and then 20 others)
really weird weather  
being in a mall, hotel, school, city, arcade/casino, hometown neighborhood (rarely every here in daily life but very common locations in my dreams)
back in the army (been out for 6 years but another common theme in my dreams)
huge 20-30ft waves whenever near the ocean 
just the 'feel' of a dream (a lot of the time things just don't feel right but normally justify it with some excuse)

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## FryingMan

> How do you work with dream signs that you never see in normal day to day life?



Visualize/daytime "MILD" practice!

Picture the scene in your mind, either from a recent dream or just imagine a scenario involving your dream sign, and see yourself noticing the dreamsign and becoming lucid.   Tell yourself while you're visualizing, "I'm dreaming!   I'm dreaming!    This <the dreamsign> means it's a dream!   I'm dreaming!"

It's also beneficial to review dreamsigns before bed in this way, I know that fogelbise does this quite a bit to great effect.

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## fogelbise

^Agreed! Additionally, if you aren't doing SSILD on a particular night, you could also do what FryingMan suggested during WBTB where it seems to be very effective. That said, I also enjoy thinking (during day practices) of all the fun things I could be doing if this very moment were a dream and I will sometimes also simulate an RC showing that I am dreaming.

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## Zachlew

Thanks guys! Great tip! I've been doing MILD as my intention method before bed but I didn't even think about using my dream signs in my visualization.

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## Zachlew

Week 6 update:
Another busy week. My sleep schedule keeps getting messed up. I have noticed this kills my recall and sleeping in general. Even my RC's during the day were kind of weak so I'm not too surprised no new lucids.

I did try SSILD a few times but they only ended in FAs or very vivid dreams. I found I need the right balance of being too awake and too sleepy after the WBTB for the SSILD to be useful.   

I was looking over my DJ and I noticed when I'm able to keep a good consistent sleep schedule my recall started to improve. Both the number of dreams recalled and the detail of those dreams would increase. I also noticed that my lucids came after having consistent improved recall. I don't know yet if the lucids were caused by being able to remember more detailed dreams, having more detailed dreams gave me more chances to become lucid, combination of those, or just something unrelated. Nevertheless, I still have a good amount of confidence in the fact that I will have more lucids if I just keep going.

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## Zachlew

For about the last 3 weeks, I've been having very poor dream recall due to being busy. Before, I was recalling 3-6 dreams a night with vivid detail but lately I've been barely remembering a few short fragmented dreams if any at all. 

So, this morning I woke up and couldn't remember a single dream again. I figured it was just another poor night but the kids weren't up yet. I was still a bit tired so I just laid in bed. After about 5 minutes, I remembered a tiny dream fragment about updating some spreadsheet. That little fragment must have jogged my memory because it lead to me remembering 3 long dreams and one very vivid dream. Then I also remembered that I was lucid in 2 of those! One mildly lucid and one very lucid where I could even remember a task I wanted to do. What the heck! I  went from remembering nothing at all and was about to just shrug it off as another poor night to remembering 2 lucid dreams! 

Up until this point I was under the impression that if I had a lucid dream I would remember it because I was lucid. Now I know it is easy to forget even very lucid dreams. This also makes me think I've probably had a few lucids that I forgot due to not recalling them. Ugh I think my brain is trolling me. Time to work on dream recall again.

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## FryingMan

^^ Yes it is quite possible that recall of lucid dreams doesn't "scream out" at you every time, and you have to work to remember them as well.   This happens especially when you lose lucidity during the LD  and continue on dreaming non-lucidly before waking up, and/or go through one or more complete sleep cycles after the cycle the LD was in if you don't wake and recall immediately.

There is a large benefit to giving recall a decent amount of time in the morning before getting up -- sometimes you just have to reach and reach and associate and keep relaxing and wait for those memories to start rolling in, good job!





> Time to work on dream recall again



Always!  Never stop.    Recall requires constant work.

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## Zachlew

Yep that's what happened. In the mildly lucid dream, I lost lucidity and I just continued with a non-lucid dream. For the very lucid dream, I did wake up or it was a FA. Once I woke up I remembered I wanted to try DEILD so I did that but once I came back into the dream I wasn't lucid anymore.

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## FryingMan

This is why you'll see in the very experienced LDers DJs from time to time where they wake themselves up so they can journal a particularly awesome LD.     For those of us still working on getting consistent frequency/longer LDs this seems inconceivable (wake yourself up from a LD *on purpose*!?!?) but now you can see how it's possible to forget them.

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## Zachlew

I saw that mentioned in a few threads and I thought it was a bit odd. I thought they were just being cocky saying that they get so many LDs they cant remember them all. lol But I see it's actually pretty easy to forget them. It's like having a busy day and forgetting what you did in the morning.

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## Zachlew

Week 7 Update:
First time having 2 lucid dreams in one night! Too bad those are the only lucid dreams lately.

Continuing with: 
RCs throughout the day
MILD before bed and after awakings during the night (I've been using my dream signs in my MILDs here which seems to be really helpful)
On good nights I'll add in WBTB + SSILD (good nights have become rare lately)
Recording any recalls in the morning 

I'm going to work a bit extra on recalls now after the other night.

Can someone explain what an epic is or point me to a description? I see people mention these a lot on different threads and it seems very vague to me. It just seems like they have a long vivid dream. That seems pretty normal with good recall but maybe I'm just don't understand what they mean by epic.

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## fogelbise

Congrats on your first time with two lucids in one night!!  :smiley:  Count those milestones and take pride!

Everyone may have a slightly different definition, but to me an epic is one of those dreams where you wake up smiling ear to ear and it usually involves a fairly lengthy amount of dream time or is at least a very significant dream. For a non-lucid, after an epic, you would think to yourself "Wow, non-lucids can be just as awesome reliving the memories of the dream as many lucids." For a lucid epic, it's the same sort of thing, includes the above factors and it will be a dream that "sticks with you" (but so can the non lucid epics). Does that help at all? Let me know if not.

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## FryingMan

To me epic means a dream that is particularly long, vivid [both visually and awareness-wise], coherent, a real "I was there" experience with interactions, observations, reactions.   In my experience epics take both great recall and high awareness.    It does not require full lucidity, although in my experience they tend to be partially or semi-lucid.    These are the sorts of dreams you wake from saying "OMG!" in awe from the experience.

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## Zachlew

Thanks guys! Definitely a better description of epics!

Also, I had another lucid last night so I hit another milestone. First time having two nights with lucids in less than a one week!

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## FryingMan

Woohoo I love "hot weeks," congrats

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## Zachlew

Week 8 Update:

Good start to the week with a lucid using the WBTB + SSILD method. But the rest of the week has been taking care of sick kids and now I'm sick. I'm keeping up the RCs and recalls but not a whole lot of energy for anything else.

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## fogelbise

Congrats on the SSILD success! Dialing it down a little, especially when sick is not a bad thing...just remember to ramp it back up when you are feeling better...to ensure that the more lax approach doesn't become permanent.

Edit: I commented a little more on your DJ/blog. Nice LD!  :smiley:

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## Zachlew

Which one is more useful long term practice?
-Writing short one line descriptions of each dream remembered (basically just the major parts to jog the memory of the whole dream)
-Writing everything possible about ever dream remembered (sometimes multiple pages for one dream)

I'm kind of torn between both of these right now. I feel writing everything down is useful and seems to help my recall but it can also become very time consuming. Writing short one liners seems enough for me to remember the whole dream but some details I still forget. Maybe I'll just do a mix of them. Short when I'm lazy or don't have the time and long when I do have the time and energy. Any thoughts on this?

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## tblanco

I'm a hazy dude in the morning and if i have a flash of memory I need to chase it all the way down the rabbit hole. When i'm in the recall groove there's a certain amount of patience and calm to it, like I need to stay focused on what i can remember and not get nervous or freak out because the associations will come. Recall is a little bit like stabilization in that respect. You need to have the focus there but you can't be trying too hard or you'll chase the memories away. 

To counterpoint though, on a good dream with a big DJ entry, sometimes i can just look at the title and relive the sucker in my memory..

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## FryingMan

Yes you sometimes really need to stay with it and be very patient and let those associations fire.   I tend to be a bit stubborn about recall, when I *know* I have some memories right there on the edge of remembering I'll stay with it a long time.

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## Zachlew

That's typically what I've been doing. I give it about 5mins or so for a dream fragment to pop up and then I normally follow the storyline backwards. I've been running into a issue lately though where while waiting too long for a dream fragment to come up I fall back asleep. So if after about 5mins I still can't recall anything I just shrug it off as no recalls. That's probably not the most effective way to improve recall but I normally have stuff I need to do in the morning. 

This might not have been clear in that question I was asking. But it was more about how important is it to record everything you recall. I normally try to mentally recall everything I can but I'm not always up to writing it all down.

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## Zachlew

*Second month recap*
This is what I have recorded in my journal.
Dreams recalled: 78 (I'm actually surprised I recalled more this month than last considering 3 weeks this month I wasn't really trying much)
Lucid dreams: 3 - DILD

*Current Practice:*
Daytime - Throughout the day, I check my surroundings to see if I can notice something dreamlike. Then I will do 1 or 2 of my RCs: check text to see if it changes, check my hands to see if they are normal, pinch my nose and try to breath, and/or think about what I was doing 15mins ago.  

Night/Morning- Before bed, I drink some water, take a 50mg b6 vitamin and/or eat a banana. Then right before sleep and after any awaking's in the night,  I repeat the intention 'I realize when I am dreaming' and visualize myself in a dream seeing one of my dream signs and saying 'I'm dreaming!'. When I'm not too busy or tired, I will do a WBTB + SSILD during one of my natural awaking's through out the night. Then I record any other dreams sometime in morning.

SSILD- (This is what I recorded in my journal that last time it got me lucid) WBTB (10-15mins) not drowsy before laying down again. Lay on my back. Calming breath trick while repeating my intention above with visuals (5 times). Quick cycles a couple seconds for each sense (4 times). Longer cycles keep lengthening the time each cycle to about 30-45sec a sense each cycle (5-6 times). Then roll over and get comfortable and 2 more cycles in new position. Then calming breath trick while repeating my intention above with visuals again. Less than 30mins to fall asleep. 

Extra- 1-2 hours of meditation a day. 

*Aspiration:*
Continuous practice without being too frustrated by not getting desired results

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## FryingMan

^^ Those are some great results!    And a great practice.

For managing frustration: it's good to have specific, achievable goals that are just a bit of a stretch for you.    Having dreaming goals is also highly advisable.    But avoiding "dreaming performance anxiety" is crucial: a happy, confident mindset will promote progress, while anxiety and frustration can keep you stalled or worse.   Like everything in this discipline, you must strike a balance between keeping up the energy and enthusiasm while avoiding frustration or disappointment.

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## Zachlew

I actually haven't been frustrated at all but then again it has only been 2 months. The point by that aspiration was for me to continue just enjoying this practice and letting it develop at its own pace. I don't really want to set goals. I know can be useful for some people but I don't like to use them any more. I just want to point myself in the right direction, keep going, and see what happens!

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## fogelbise

> I actually haven't been frustrated at all but then again it has only been 2 months. The point by that aspiration was for me to continue just enjoying this practice and letting it develop at its own pace. I don't really want to set goals. I know can be useful for some people but I don't like to use them any more. I just want to point myself in the right direction, keep going, and see what happens!



That is a lot like the approach I took and I especially think that the "just enjoying this practice and letting it develop at its own pace" is an especially healthy and effective mindset for lucid dreaming long term! Nice!  :smiley:  On your recall question several posts back, I see nothing wrong with your plan to mix up full and brief entries, especially if it helps with keeping this going at your own pace. I do recommend that you continue to try to recall as much as you can at least some of the time.

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## FryingMan

I entirely concur with the "work at it, see where it goes, enjoy the journey" approach.   Especially when it leads to a happy, relaxed mindset.    But just once more let me say that having some concrete tasks that you're excited about doing in a LD, and can spend some time visualizing about, can really help lucidity along via building expectation.   See for example the task of the month threads, that's a great example of what I'm talking about.

http://www.dreamviews.com/tasks-mont...ne-2015-a.html

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## Zachlew

Thanks for the input guys! I may try some of the tasks. Not necessarily as a goal that I have to accomplish but more of something fun thing to try when lucid. I like that one of summoning a house that represents myself. That sounds kind of fun.

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## tblanco

> I actually haven't been frustrated at all but then again it has only been 2 months. The point by that aspiration was for me to continue just enjoying this practice and letting it develop at its own pace. I don't really want to set goals. I know can be useful for some people but I don't like to use them any more. I just want to point myself in the right direction, keep going, and see what happens!



Love this attitude!

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## Zachlew

Week 10 Update:
I missed an update last week but there's not much to mention. I'm keeping going with RCs and recalls. I've been so busy lately this seems to be the only thing I have time for. I haven't even done one WBTB in last 2 weeks. Once things slow down at work, I'll do more with this practice. For now, I'll just keep up with what I can and then add in more later.

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## Zachlew

Week 12 Update:
I'm still doing my RC's and recalls. Life has been a bit crazy lately. I haven't been writing many recalls down in my journal and when I do it's only been a little one sentence summary. I haven't even been getting the time to do intentions before bed and I haven't done one WBTB this month! lol I just crash every night and then I'm woken up suddenly in the morning/night to get going again. It seems like every week I'm hoping things will calm down but it seems like it just gets even more chaotic than the week before. I'm still going to keep going with what I can but I don't think I'm going to be making any noticeable progress until things clam down. I did have one lucid over the weekend at least  :smiley:

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## FryingMan

Congrats on your weekend lucid!  Many people find the added relaxation of the weekend lends itself nicely to lucids.   Just keep doing RCs and being as mindful as you can during the day, and try to slip in some intention at bedtime if you can.   I find that one sentence summaries are generally good enough to recall the full dream if you want to write up a full DJ entry later for the really good ones that you want to remember in full.

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## Zachlew

*Third month recap*
This is what I have recorded in my journal.
Dreams recalled: 25 
Lucid dreams: 1 - DILD

While I haven't given up on this practice, I have had a lot of set backs this month. My practice has dwindled down to just occasional RCs throughout the day and inconsistent recalls in the morning. I'm hoping next month I can amp up my practice again!  Even though being lucid is something unbelievably amazing, I find that just recalling dreams is becoming very rewarding. This practice is pretty fun and hope I can keep it going.  ::D:

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## Zachlew

Week 13.5 Update:

I'd figure I would update before I head out of town. I just had lucids 2 nights in a row. The first one felt like about 15-20mins lucid and the second one felt like almost an hour lucid. Both were really fun and I hope to get a few more this month. Consistency really helps out. I also found a happy medium with recording recalls in my journal. Instead of writing a summary or the entire story or nothing at all, I have been writing just key phrases in the sequence they occurred. It seems to be enough to remember the huge detailed recalls without spending 30mins writing it all down. 

I had a dream earlier in the week were one of the DC's pointed out to me that something was really strange.In the middle of the dream I was getting off a train at a huge monastery. A monk came up to me and told me to look at the shoes everyone was wearing on the train. There were a couple hundred people getting off the train and they all had on the same shoes. I said wow that's a really rare coincidence. Then the monk shook his head, took one of my shoes (which was different from all of the other people on the train), and walked off. 

It seemed like the DC was trying to make me lucid. Is that possible? Has anyone else on here had DC's that helped them become lucid?

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## FryingMan

Congrats on the long lucids and on the interesting shoes dream!   I can't say I've had "DC help" but remember that DCs are just you, so you're helping yourself to get lucid.    I think sometimes I have "dreamsign help" with my SC throwing every sign it can at me trying to get my attention.

Keyword journaling can help maintain the dreams in your head, but over time I (and others) find that the details still melt away, if you have  a particularly fun or memorable dream you want to keep for posterity, writing it out in detail is a good idea.    Also, spending those 30 minutes writing it out keeps your mind focused on dreaming and signals your SC that dreaming and recalling dreams is still really important for you, so that's a good investment in future dreaming.

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## Zachlew

*Fourth month recap*
This is what I have recorded in my journal.
Dreams recalled: 26
Lucid dreams: 3 - DILDs

Besides traveling for the past 3 weeks this has been an OK month. Definitely trying to keep this practice going even with a hectic schedule. 

I leaving again for another week and half but it should be a little less stressful then my last trip. Hopefully it will give me some time to build up my recall again. 

I've found consistent recall, WBTB, and intentions are my most useful practices that don't require much effort. SSILD works great for me too but it can end up consuming a lot of time if I can't get back to sleep.

I'm going to try Sensei's comp this month. Hopefully I can at least consistently practice for those 2 weeks.

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## fogelbise

It is great to hear that you are keeping up practices and finding your own path! We are here if you need us.  :smiley:

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## Zachlew

Thanks Fogelbise! You and FryingMan have been a lot of help. Much appreciated!

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## Zachlew

Week 17 Update:

I had 2 extremely short lucids over the last week. The WBTBs are really helpful but I'm still really confused a lot in my dreams. It's like a brain fog where something seems off and I cant really get good access to my memories. I'll keep working on heightening my awareness. It seems like the awareness and good memories comes and goes though.

I had a pretty weird experience last night trying to DEILD after a dream. I ended up in both my dream body and my waking body. I also seemed to have much more control than normal over the dream as well (I was able to fling a annoying DC into space with the wave of my hand). I was trying to use my senses to pull myself more into the dream (I'm not sure if that's the best method or not but it seems to stabilize other lucids). Would that be a DEILD since I was in the dream and could use my senses? Or is it just the threshold of a DEILD since I could still feel my body? I'm guessing this it pretty subjective but it was a new experience and wasn't sure what to do or what it would be called. 

DJ Link: http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/zach...p-day-8-69390/

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## fogelbise

> Week 17 Update:
> 
> I had 2 extremely short lucids over the last week. The WBTBs are really helpful but I'm still really confused a lot in my dreams. It's like a brain fog where something seems off and I cant really get good access to my memories. I'll keep working on heightening my awareness. It seems like the awareness and good memories comes and goes though.



Indeed, that can come and go and you thinking to keep working on heightening your awareness is exactly the solution I would have come up with. Sometimes in those situations I end up in the void and am able to regroup and move into a new scene with much better awareness. The standard rubbing your hands and reminding yourself that you are dreaming and this is all being generated by your mind should also help. Either way there will be nights where your mind is foggy and that will pass, especially with continued work.





> I had a pretty weird experience last night trying to DEILD after a dream. I ended up in both my dream body and my waking body. I also seemed to have much more control than normal over the dream as well (I was able to fling a annoying DC into space with the wave of my hand). I was trying to use my senses to pull myself more into the dream (I'm not sure if that's the best method or not but it seems to stabilize other lucids). Would that be a DEILD since I was in the dream and could use my senses? Or is it just the threshold of a DEILD since I could still feel my body? I'm guessing this it pretty subjective but it was a new experience and wasn't sure what to do or what it would be called.



One possibility is that your dreaming mind came up with the feeling of your sleeping body. Either way, since you were aware you were dreaming and additionally were taking control of your dream by flinging that DC into space suggests to me that it was an LD and not HH. It does sound like a DEILD to me.

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## Zachlew

> I end up in the void and am able to regroup



I'm still a bit confused about the void. Is that just a blank space between dreams and being awake or is it something else altogether?

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## FryingMan

> I'm still a bit confused about the void. Is that just a blank space between dreams and being awake or is it something else altogether?



Most dreamers refer to "the void" as the loss of dream visuals.  You're still fully dreaming (RCs you can do like nose pinch without visuals confirm this, this is one reason nose pinch is my #1 RC of choice), just without a visual element to the dream: usually an all-black or near-black place without lighting.   I've been in an all-white or all-gray void once or twice as well.

One should *always* assume one is still dreaming, and keep on thinking about where you just were or where you want to go.  Stay in motion, walk/run/fly (flying works great for me) forwards and much of the time the dream visuals return very soon.

Who knows what the void actually is.   It could be what we all normally experience in between dreams while our dreaming hardware is spinning up the next scene for us, or it could be a sort of a "crash" of our dreaming system unable to keep up with the demands of being lucid in the dream state.   Maybe our sudden desire for a scene shift when lucid catches the dream hardware by surprise and it's just not ready to meet the new demand, so it just shuts off the visuals.  


*Spoiler* for _possible schema infection_ : 



I don't experience the void all that often.  I know that I most often experience the void when phasing through solid objects like walls.

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## Zachlew

> Most dreamers refer to "the void" as the loss of dream visuals.



Thanks! I was a bit confused about this since I haven't experienced it yet that I know of. I have noticed that right after a dream there is still a little period where my mind is still in the dreaming state. It's like I know I'm in bed and I just had a dream but I'm not awake yet. It seems that's my optimal state for recalling dreams. I wonder if that would be the void if I was lucid before hand.





> Who knows what the void actually is. It could be what we all normally experience in between dreams while our dreaming hardware is spinning up the next scene for us, or it could be a sort of a "crash" of our dreaming system unable to keep up with the demands of being lucid in the dream state. Maybe our sudden desire for a scene shift when lucid catches the dream hardware by surprise and it's just not ready to meet the new demand, so it just shuts off the visuals.



I find it pretty interesting how little is known about the dreaming even though everyone does it every night. It seems lucid dreamers know more that anyone else and it still mostly just assumptions based on experiences.  





> RCs you can do like nose pinch without visuals



This has been my #2 RC for a while now for just that reason! I would say #1 but I still do reading text for a RC more than any other.

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## FryingMan

> This has been my #2 RC for a while now for just that reason! I would say #1 but I still do reading text for a RC more than any other.



How does the reading RC work out for you?   I rarely read in dreams or notice text, compared to things like noticing people, plot, etc (there are exceptions of course).

Do you find that every single time you have the urge to RC in a dream that there is text handy ready for you to use right away, or do you have to go searching for it?

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## Zachlew

I think I've been lucky or I just don't RC that much in dreams because there always seems to be text in my dreams when I want to try that RC. I mostly end up reading license plates or digital clocks. I actually rarely do a RC when I first become lucid though. It is mostly just the feeling of 'I know I'm dreaming'.

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## fogelbise

> I'm still a bit confused about the void. Is that just a blank space between dreams and being awake or is it something else altogether?



Experiencing the void is like FM said. Mine are also usually black also, sometimes white or gray which may be something else happening. I agree with the possibilities that FM mentioned for what may be be bringing you to the void. You most likely will only notice the void when you are lucid and not expecting to wake up (we tend to get what we expect), though I have recalled some transitions of non-lucids that were void-like and I bet FM has recalled quite a few with his excellent recall rate. The more time I spend in the void, the more I feel that there is also a possibility that the void could be moments of non-REM lucidity (NREM, Delta), especially towards the end of your sleep when REM periods are close together thus making it likely to be easier to surf the gap between REM periods. I find fun ways to stay lucid through the void like moving in an unusual way, often like different animals: a dolphin or a slithering snake.

I didn't notice the void early on and I think it was because when there was even an inkling that the dream might be fading that I would immediately wake up and shorten my lucid. It was as if there was no time to spin or do anything. Once I knew about the void and even more so after Sageous mentioned "not following the normal path back to your waking body" (or similar) I began extending my LD's more and more, usually via a brief trip to the void and sometimes bringing back the same scene after the shortest of fades. So even though this may seem more advanced, I think that you can take advantage of this too. By realizing that it is possible to extend dreams, you will be able to extend at least some of your LD's.

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## Zachlew

> Experiencing the void is like FM said. Mine are also usually black also, sometimes white or gray which may be something else happening. I agree with the possibilities that FM mentioned for what may be be bringing you to the void. You most likely will only notice the void when you are lucid and not expecting to wake up (we tend to get what we expect), though I have recalled some transitions of non-lucids that were void-like and I bet FM has recalled quite a few with his excellent recall rate. The more time I spend in the void, the more I feel that there is also a possibility that the void could be moments of non-REM lucidity (NREM, Delta), especially towards the end of your sleep when REM periods are close together thus making it likely to be easier to surf the gap between REM periods. I find fun ways to stay lucid through the void like moving in an unusual way, often like different animals: a dolphin or a slithering snake.



Thanks! More good info! That's funny you try moving like different animals. I guess that would give you something to occupy your mind during that space.





> I didn't notice the void early on and I think it was because when there was even an inkling that the dream might be fading that I would immediately wake up and shorten my lucid. It was as if there was no time to spin or do anything.



This is definitely what has happened in all my LDs so far.





> Once I knew about the void and even more so after Sageous mentioned "not following the normal path back to your waking body" (or similar) I began extending my LD's more and more, usually via a brief trip to the void and sometimes bringing back the same scene after the shortest of fades. So even though this may seem more advanced, I think that you can take advantage of this too. By realizing that it is possible to extend dreams, you will be able to extend at least some of your LD's.



I hope I can give this a try. Now I just need to get lucid!

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## Zachlew

*Fifth month recap*
Dreams recalled: 36
Lucid dreams: 5 - DILDs

I did sensei's comp for the first 2 weeks of my 5th month and it was a huge motivation. I did manage to get 5 lucids in 15days which is a lot for me. I amped up my practice a lot during the comp. Which was very helpful but it is too much for me to do everyday.

Practice During Comp:
Banana, water, and B-50 vitamin complex 
Quiet undisturbed sleep (was in hotels for 12 days)
Check for FA after every awakening
DEILD attempt or dream recall every awakening 
Record every dream/fragment recalled as fully as possible in DJ
WBTB + SSILD/WILD multiple attempts a night
Sleep in late (8hrs of sleep but 10hrs total time for WBTB, WILD attempts, and recalls)

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## fogelbise

I hear you on the various practices sometimes feeling like too much. I think finding a balance is important and I think I have found a way for myself. I give myself a little breather while not stopping completely and I ramp it up both when I feel like it has been a while since I have been lucid, and also after having an invigorating lucid...I just ride that wave a bit to maintain a higher level of practice. Your balance will probably be different since everyone practices a little different and everyone is at a little different stage.

Good luck and keep it up!

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