# Off-Topic Discussion > Extended Discussion >  >  Anyone want to leave society?

## tommo

I've been thinking seriously about building a little house in the woods/bush, or doing something like these guys A Low Impact Woodland Home  They've started building a self-sustaining community, with permission from the council.  Not sure how hard that would be to get.

But even just building one without permission and living out of society would be awesome.  In ground is good because it's pretty much undetectable out in the wild, planes/helicopters won't see it and the chances of someone stumbling upon it are slim.

Does anyone want to do this?  Not saying with me.  By yourself or with others.

The way 90% of society is going makes me sick.

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## nina

I always wanted to live on a deserted island, but really I'm more drawn to the woods, so yeah, someday I'd love to have a little hobbit home. Hermeticism ftw.

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## Alric

If I could get high speed internet out there, then I would consider doing it.

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## StonedApe

I would like to do this, not because I dislike society but because I think it'd be a really good experience.

WOW they actually are hobbit holes.

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## HeavySleeper

Grizzly Adams had the right idea.

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## Arra

For a long time I've wanted to live in a forest on my own for a week or so just to prove I could survive, for  the experience. I'd need contacts or glasses though...

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## DuB

No.

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## Spartiate

I go out in the woods several times per year for hunting or fishing or other outdoorsy stuff, either in tents or rustic cabins (no electricity, sometimes no water, propane lighting).  I enjoy it but after a week or so I start getting really bored and restless.  The bugs in the woods here in Canada are completely unbearable at certain times of the year as well.

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## Sornaensis

I've done this.

Twice. It's always loads of fun for the first 3 years, and then the novelty wears off. Then you go back to society, will all of its fancy knowledge and technology, and it's great for the first three years, and then the novelty wears off, and then...

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## chess92

Just go into deep levels of dreams like in Inception and create your own world ... wouldn't that be nice

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## DeeryTheDeer

I don't know how much of the world left is deserted AND able to live in, but that would be fun, if only it wasn't incredibly lonely. I would love to live in a humble place in a fairly secluded part of Hawaii.

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## tommo

> I always wanted to live on a deserted island, but really I'm more drawn to the woods, so yeah, someday I'd love to have a little hobbit home.



Yeah apparently most islands are already owned, unless they're too small or void of plants to live on.




> Hermeticism ftw.



haha +1





> If I could get high speed internet out there, then I would consider doing it.



That would be alright.  I suppose you'd need to have satellite or something.
It would also be good so that you could research plants to eat and stuff like that.





> I would like to do this, not because I dislike society but because I think it'd be a really good experience.
> 
> WOW they actually are hobbit holes.



Yeah it would be good.  I don't dislike society really.  Some aspects I really do though.
Mostly governments and large greedy corporations people.  Some other people are okay though and technology is cool.





> For a long time I've wanted to live in a forest on my own for a week or so just to prove I could survive, for  the experience. I'd need contacts or glasses though...



Glasses would be good because they could double as fire starters.  If you have the right type.  I think near-sighted ones don't work well.





> I go out in the woods several times per year for hunting or fishing or other outdoorsy stuff, either in tents or rustic cabins (no electricity, sometimes no water, propane lighting).  I enjoy it but after a week or so I start getting really bored and restless.  The bugs in the woods here in Canada are completely unbearable at certain times of the year as well.



That's cool.  I can understand getting bored after a while.  Maybe you'd need to move occasionally.  Or go with other people.  Bug shit me too.  There's some plants that are useful as insect repellent, plus nets etc. for a house.





> I've done this.
> 
> Twice. It's always loads of fun for the first 3 years, and then the novelty wears off. Then you go back to society, will all of its fancy knowledge and technology, and it's great for the first three years, and then the novelty wears off, and then...



3 years!?  Where did you do this?
Technology is amazing.  It would be awesome to come back after 10-20 years though and just see how far things have advanced lol  Or turned to shit possibly haha
Also did you build a house like this?  Or just camp in a tent?





> Just go into deep levels of dreams like in Inception and create your own world ... wouldn't that be nice



Haha, yeah that would be awesome.  And a total mindfuck when you wake up.





> I don't know how much of the world left is deserted AND able to live in, but that would be fun, if only it wasn't incredibly lonely. I would love to live in a humble place in a fairly secluded part of Hawaii.



There's a fair bit left.  Probably have to research a bit to find some good places.

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## shitmymonksays

I want to escape being human, with all its insanity - false conceptions, ego, greed, emotional associations, trapped by my own 'personality' etc. In very low days, I wish I was dead, but since I believe in reincarnation, this won't buy me much except <49d in bardo.

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## Maria92



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## tommo

> I want to escape being human, with all its insanity - false conceptions, ego, greed, emotional associations, trapped by my own 'personality' etc. In very low days, I wish I was dead, but since I believe in reincarnation, this won't buy me much except <49d in bardo.



 Destroying the ego would be a major reason for me to go in to the woods alone.  Apparently some people decide to do this when practicing Buddhism because it since you aren't talking to anyone, the inner voice finally shuts up by itself, making it easier to see clearly.

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## Invader

It's an aircraft hangar stuffed into the side of a mountain for me. Mmmm spacious.
Always wanted a subterranean home.

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## Ham or Turkey?

Absolutely. Society makes me feel sick sometimes. All the lies, the institutional injustice, the corruption, the crazy consumerism and the fanaticism makes me sick. I have very often thought about leaving society in different ways. I've been through periods where I considered suicide. Now I mostly just think about buying a place somewhere far from civilization and living there by myself, without caring about the rest of the world. The main problem is the loneliness, I guess. I wouldn't want to be completely alone. I have talked to a very close friend about it, and we kind of figured that we could buy a place together when we are older, and then we would live there together without caring about the rest of the world. 

Some kind of self-sustaining community wouldn't be enough for me, I'm afraid that would mean society coming after me.

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No thank you. I love McDonald and wiping my ass with a nice clean toilet paper. You can have your leaves.

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## Marvo

> I've been thinking seriously about building a little house in the woods/bush, or doing something like these guys A Low Impact Woodland Home  They've started building a self-sustaining community, with permission from the council.  Not sure how hard that would be to get.
> 
> But even just building one without permission and living out of society would be awesome.  In ground is good because it's pretty much undetectable out in the wild, planes/helicopters won't see it and the chances of someone stumbling upon it are slim.
> 
> Does anyone want to do this?  Not saying with me.  By yourself or with others.
> 
> The way 90% of society is going makes me sick.



YouTube - JMEMantzel's Channel

This guy is living more or less off the grid. He owns a property on a mountain somewhere and basically has built his own little base there. Currently he's working on a lot of stuff, including a giant spider robot, completely built out of scrap metal. The guy is an engineering genius (not really, but he's pretty smart still) and is basically extremely cool.

These days he doesn't live up in the mountains though, because it's kind of cold there and he has a little family.

Check out his first Giant Robot Project video, to get the gist of it. It's a lot of fun and very interesting too.

YouTube - Giant Robot Project, Part 1

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## Philosopher8659

Well, you contradict yourself from the start. Leave society to build a community? Hello? I think the cabins are empty now.

There is sense to what you say, if you look behind the words. A society is more than a heap of people. Have you ever asked what makes a society? Other than a heap of people? You should have learned it in Elementary Set Theory-- but if you did, you did not understand its application to all thought and human action.

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## ty4TheAdventure

I've actually thought about going to the other end of the spectrum and visiting as many different societies as I possibly can and learn about the world that way. At the same time, I actually think that solitude can give you an opportunity to learn about yourself and to sort out your things.

Generally, every experience you go through teaches you something. If I left society, it would be temporary, until I completed what I felt needed to be done, or learned what I wanted to learn.

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## Sornaensis

> Well, you contradict yourself from the start. Leave society to build a community? Hello? I think the cabins are empty now.
> 
> There is sense to what you say, if you look behind the words. A society is more than a heap of people. Have you ever asked what makes a society? Other than a heap of people? You should have learned it in Elementary Set Theory-- but if you did, you did not understand its application to all thought and human action.



Yes, it's real ridiculous to feel fed up with something and want to create your own version of it.

What the fuck is with your and your inane posts, btw?

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## tommo

He likes nitpicking people's grammar.

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## ooflendoodle

You would just get bored with it after the first week.

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## Raphael

Not really, no. I like the city life.

But for a vacation it's nice to be out in the country for some peace and quiet; couldn't live my whole life out there though  :tongue2:

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## Zhaylin

If I'm still around after my kids grow up and leave the nest and if my hubby dies before me, it is something I would definitely do.
I hate neither society nor people- it all just exhausts me.
I'd have to have some sort of generator though and a very large hard drive of some sort.  When I'm alone with no people or technology, I write stories, poems and songs.  I can't write music though, so the only way for me to preserve them is to record them.  So having that and heaps of paper (or the knowledge how to make more) as well as pens/pencils would be my only requirements.

**EDIT**
When I was a kid of about 14 years, I ran away from home and lived in a little patch of woods for almost 2 weeks.  I wasn't bored one second of any of those days.  There's too much to do:  build a shelter, build a fire pit, repair shelter, gather fuel, scavenge for food and water, admire the beauty and peacefulness.  I loved my entire time out there and wouldn't take it back for anything, even though it irreparably damaged my relationship with my parents.

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## Philosopher8659

> Yes, it's real ridiculous to feel fed up with something and want to create your own version of it.
> 
> What the fuck is with your and your inane posts, btw?



Evolution, I believe.

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## Emecom

I would love to do this. While I do dislike a lot of things about our society, it would mostly be for meditation and self improvement. I think it would be awesome to grow a little garden and just live off the land. Plus you could grow some herb and maybe some magic mushrooms. To make it even more enjoyable!

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## saltyseedog

I always used to fantasize about this pretty much my whole childhood. I always felt really connected to nature my whole life, and was kind of disgusted by people being so disconnected from nature. I felt so bad for all the plants and animal that lived here, being killed off by development.

Ideas I had were: Be homeless and live in the woods and live off fish, Buy a sailboat and travel the whole west coast and live off fish, be homeless and live by a lake.
Meh I had a bunch other fantasies but I can't remember them now. Oh wait Move to mexico and live on the beach, Live in a van and just travel around.

It always seemed no one else was like me, but then I saw that movie into the wild and I was like holy shit thats me!!!

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## Emecom

> I always used to fantasize about this pretty much my whole childhood. I always felt really connected to nature my whole life, and was kind of disgusted by people being so disconnected from nature. I felt so bad for all the plants and animal that lived here, being killed off by development.
> 
> Ideas I had were: Be homeless and live in the woods and live off fish, Buy a sailboat and travel the whole west coast and live off fish, be homeless and live by a lake.
> Meh I had a bunch other fantasies but I can't remember them now. Oh wait Move to mexico and live on the beach, Live in a van and just travel around.
> 
> It always seemed no one else was like me, but then I saw that movie into the wild and I was like holy shit thats me!!!



Ha ha yeah that's how I use to always feel too! I definitely want to get a sail boat and just travel around.

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## Taosaur

Just don't pull an "Into the Wild."

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## tommo

Yeah living off fish would be the best option.  There's some places I think in Japan where the people just eat fish their entire lives and live for around 100 years regularly.

That is, if we don't fish the whole ocean with commercial operations.

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## LucidFlanders

No. I like walking around town in the summertime seeing girls all over the place with next to nothing on. Getting away would be just for taking a vacation every now and then. I also like the nightlife the city has. But i also like quiet places but far away from society? not worth it.

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## LucidFlanders

> Yeah living off fish would be the best option.  There's some places I think in Japan where the people just eat fish their entire lives and live for around 100 years regularly.
> 
> That is, if we don't fish the whole ocean with commercial operations.



That's because they aren't polluted with crap like mcdonalds, wendys, and crappy stuff at grocery stores. If it tastes good it is bad for you, although some good things are good for you aswell.

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## dajo

You probably want to read Henry David Thoreau's "Walden" then.

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## saltyseedog

> That's because they aren't polluted with crap like mcdonalds, wendys, and crappy stuff at grocery stores. If it tastes good it is bad for you, although some good things are good for you aswell.



Actually you would be surprised. Most freshwater fish is full of toxins from crap in water. And even fish close to shore in the ocean have toxins in them from pollution. offshore fish like tuna are cleanist.

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## Zhaylin

I would love to live somewhere with an abundance of fish.  I could live off of Saba (Mackerel).
That's the one bad thing about living in the center in West Virginia- no fresh ocean fish.

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## Raphael

I eat fish oil twice a week, it's good for hair and nails.

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## tommo

> That's because they aren't polluted with crap like mcdonalds, wendys, and crappy stuff at grocery stores. If it tastes good it is bad for you, although some good things are good for you aswell.



That's a great philosophy of life flanders - "It is always like this, but sometimes.... it isn't".
 ::lol:: 





> You probably want to read Henry David Thoreau's "Walden" then.



Dow.... uh, I bought it a while ago, haven't got around to reading it yet.





> Actually you would be surprised. Most freshwater fish is full of toxins from crap in water. And even fish close to shore in the ocean have toxins in them from pollution. offshore fish like tuna are cleanist.



In some places.  But tuna also contain apparently high levels of mercury.  Meh....





> I eat fish oil twice a week, it's been proven by really, really shitty studies to be good for hair and nails.
> But, subsequent scientific double blind controlled trials have proven it doesn't really do anything.
> (You get enough Omega's from eating veggies and the recommended amount of fish each week)



Fixed.

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## tommo

> Yaaaaaaa tuna is on the verge of extinction but who gives a fuck it tastes good right?



+1
Why did you delete that post?

It's also another reason not to buy fish oil.  The fish is wasted just to get oil out.  I honestly can't believe they are doing that when we already know the fish populations are dwindling on extinction.

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## blade5x

LOST... that's all I need right about now (maybe forever) with the amount of school and stress that I've been feeling lately.

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## stormcrow

I figured it was kind of a dickish condescending thing to say even though it was true

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## Philosopher8659

The awareness that something is wrong with society today is a first step. However one must know exactly what is wrong and how it can be repaired. 
Society is not the dirt under our feet, or the trees we may wish to take shade from. It is not the removal of responsibility nor the number of people we share it with. 

A wise man once said, before you can remove the mote from someone's eye, one must first remove the beam from their own. What is the source of all human action? How can we improve it?

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## greenhavoc

i think about this all the time, but then i get laid and wonder why in the hell i was thinking about _this_

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## Xox

What's everyones reasoning for wanting to leave society? (those that do)

I also recommend Walden. 

and no I don't

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## sloth

I once lived in the forest, with no human interaction, for an entire year. I brought a fishing pole, and a lighter. 
A full written account of it was written years ago, on here, and is entitled "Sloth goes insane"

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## tommo

> I once lived in the forest, with no human interaction, for an entire year. I brought a fishing pole, and a lighter. 
> A full written account of it was written years ago, on here, and is entitled "Sloth goes insane"



 



> What is the meaning of life?
> When I was 20 years old, I suffered a breakup that devistated me. I had  lived with a woman for three years when she left. There is merit to the  idea that one only questions the meaning of things when something  interrupts his daily cycle. I wondered why I did the things that I did. I  thought, Even if I live forever, theres still nothing I can do that  really matters. Theres nothing that anyone else has done or ever will  do that really makes or breaks anything. Even our very existence as a  species has no true reason, and no great wisdom lying behind it. Is  there more to life than just pleasure or no pleasure and wealth or no  wealth? Whatever your goal may be, why are you wishing so hard to  achieve it, and if you do, so what? 
> A breakup made these thoughts worse, of course. I found myself unable to  take pleasure in everyday tasks, because pleasure was meaningless. I  found I was thinking about this question more and more, for without the  answer to this question, there was no reason to think or do anything  else



Hoooollllly crap.  That is exactly how I've been feeling and what I've been thinking about recently.  More so than previously in my life.
I'm going to read the rest of your post after I figure this out myself.

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## Philosopher8659

I have never desired to leave society, frankly I have never joined it. i simply want to avoid certain people--of which there seems to be way too many--so much so that one can never get away from them. 

The only true method of escaping them is to educate them. This will not happen in our life-time.

At one point I thought the best method would be to out breed them. This path is an old standby of even geneticists. However, finding a woman of that quality is very very difficult as they are very very rare.

Even high IQ people are prone to sell out the future for the pleasures of today.

The only way to truly leave this society is to change it. One starts with the self, then with family. I just never found a capable woman. Finding another odd ball like me has been impossible. As one starts from first principles, so too in life. And, as reasoning is more than a heap of words, society is more than a heap of people. The society we have today is only a reflection of the confused mind of man.

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## saltyseedog

I did shrooms yesterday and I felt unconditionally loved by the plants and the earth. People need to be more loving. Also concrete kind of blocks your connection to the loving energy of earth. Society seems miserable.

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## Philosopher8659

I microwaved my hair dry and I dont remember the rest of the day.

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## tommo

> I did shrooms yesterday and I felt unconditionally loved by the plants and the earth. People need to be more loving. Also concrete kind of blocks your connection to the loving energy of earth. Society seems miserable.



Walk on the grass.  :smiley:

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## Abra

I will never own a car. I will never buy a house. I will never have children.

The possibilities are _endless_.

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## greenhavoc

> I did shrooms yesterday and I felt unconditionally loved by the plants and the earth. People need to be more loving. Also concrete kind of blocks your connection to the loving energy of earth. Society seems miserable.



season is almost here for us, too.
I was about to say something pleasent to you but I then read:




> *unconditionally loved by the plants*



and deduced you are indeed the common variety hippie

If you would have said:




> *unconditionally loved by the planets*



I would have been all Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!! Sup spaceghost?!!

but you didn't, you damn dirty hippie

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## stormcrow

There are authors like Derek Jensen and Daniel Quinn that write about "post-civilization" basically leaving industrial civilization and going back to a hunter-gatherer society. I was all about this Anarcho-primitivism idea about a year ago but now I see this as a utopian fantasy. We cant really step outside of history and just "start over" there are certain aspects of our current society that would be beneficial to hold on to, starting over from scratch seems escapist and unrealistic. I think we should take the civilization that we will inherit and improve it for the better. 

Most days yes I wish I could go out into the woods and build a log cabin and kick it with bears and shit but Ill get there one day. Its kinda been my dream for the past few years to pull a "walden" and live in the woods for a while.

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## Philosopher8659

I actually bought 17 acres in the UP but the lawyers got it all. It had a stream that started there, came right up out of the ground. I wanted to build me a place to write from and garden, work out, and dream.

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## tommo

> I actually bought 17 acres in the UP but the lawyers got it all. It had a stream that started there, came right up out of the ground. I wanted to build me a place to write from and garden, work out, and dream.



 How did the lawyers get it?  That is shit!

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## Philosopher8659

I don't pre-judge people. I married a woman who had been born with a handicap--because we both wanted the same thing--family. Well, it turned out she was too damaged to have children, so I stayed because I gave my word, then she left and took everything--and a great deal more. 

Now many would blame her, and do, but she is just simple, mean and afraid, it is the legal system in this country, making lawyers rich, and giving kickbacks to judges. I will never, for the rest of my life, be able to actually own anything. They actually took the rest of my life. 

But thats how things go in America.

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## tommo

jeez.  That really fucking sucks.  It's ridiculous that people can get away with that.  Not even get away with it, but to actually be _told_ to take all of someone's belongings.  I just assumed 50% was the only amount someone could get.

America is so fucked up, just reading about a girl who was almost due to give birth and she was depressed and tried to kill herself.  Her friends saved her but the baby died so she is being charged for murder, or foeticide.  :Picard face palm:

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## Philosopher8659

In the end, you cannot blame people for being what they are, all you can do is try to contribute to changing it. One was is providing things in the environment. The other is to piss them off on occassion, etc. One does have to learn to live under a great deal of stress. I actuallly triggered a form of . . .  I forgot what it is called, but I have to wash with special shampoo so that it goes unnoticed. All one must concentrate on is trying to figure it all out.

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## tommo

> In the end, you cannot blame people for being what they are, all you can do is try to contribute to changing it. One was is providing things in the environment. The other is to piss them off on occassion, etc. One does have to learn to live under a great deal of stress. I actuallly triggered a form of . . .  I forgot what it is called, but I have to wash with special shampoo so that it goes unnoticed. All one must concentrate on is trying to figure it all out.



Eczema?

I don't think you should learn to deal with stress.  I've been doing that for the past few years.  It hasn't worked well at all.  It's better to try and look at things in a different way, of which certain ways make the stress fade away.
Or just remove the source of your stress, even if it's only in your mind.  Just stop thinking about it.

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## NikolaTesla

Anyone where seen the movie The Village? It's quite interesting, I'd say, and if given the opportunity, I'd likely join someone on something like that. 

If you don't know what it's about, *SPOILER*it's basically people who had a friend or brother/sister die because of sad things that happen everyday in society. One of them is quite rich, so he purchases a large sum of land and establish a village similar to that of a late 1800's one. He then hires a few guards to patrol the area, saying it is a wildlife preservation so that no one may come in, and they can continue to live in the village, away from society.*END SPOILER*

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## dajo

There are many real life communes that I would find far more appealing than the amish version of this really crappy movie. One quite large one was actually recently shut down in Copenhagen. Anyway, something I would really like to do for some years at some point in the future. But it would have to wait a little at the moment.

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## Taosaur

I didn't know they shut down Christiana  :Sad:  One of my co-workers in my pro-activist days was determined to move there one day. Wonder if he made it before the hammer fell?

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## Photolysis

> I don't pre-judge people. I married a woman who had been born with a handicap--because we both wanted the same thing--family. Well, it turned out she was too damaged to have children, so I stayed because I gave my word, then she left and took everything--and a great deal more. 
> 
> Now many would blame her, and do, but she is just simple, mean and afraid, it is the legal system in this country, making lawyers rich, and giving kickbacks to judges. I will never, for the rest of my life, be able to actually own anything. They actually took the rest of my life. 
> 
> But thats how things go in America.



Stories like these really piss me off, and are one of the reason why I refuse to ever marry.

What's really strange is I know a situation in the UK where someone cheated on his wife. She got a pretty crappy deal out of the divorce; her lawyers must have been utterly shite.

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## Philosopher8659

An environmental acquisition system of a living organism must acquire something from the environment, process that which it has acquired for a product that maintains and promotes the life of that organism. 

One of those sysetems is the procreative system. We don't do things because it goes well, or ill, brings pleasure or pain, we do it to have life. There is no other judgment that can be had, no other thing to strive for. This is why I would still get married again. 

Relation to self is inadmissible, so it is not the bad things that happen in life that makes us want to die, it is a failure in us. I failed to see that there are two fundamental psychologies in the world. It was my failure to try and think underneath all people were good.

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## stormcrow

> There are many real life communes that I would find far more appealing than the amish version of this really crappy movie. One quite large one was actually recently shut down in Copenhagen. Anyway, something I would really like to do for some years at some point in the future. But it would have to wait a little at the moment.



True. The problem with communes (in America at least) is that alot of kids from Cali/Oregon/Washington wanna start communes but the land is way too expensive in the northwest so they come to Texas/New Mexico/Oklahoma to buy land and end up getting run off by the locals and pigs.

I stayed at a commune that my friend Aaron lives at near Taos, New Mexico and it was pretty rad (for a couple of days). It was less a hippie commune and more of a squatter crust punk kinda crowd. They didn't grow their own food, they hitchhiked into town and spanged and busked to get alcohol money and food.

I got kicked out because I got in a fight with some kid I saw hitting his dog. Its cool to be a wannabe anarchist scumfuck and hit your dog but its not cool for outsiders to start fights with residents.

Anyway I have too many irreconcilable differences with people to live in a big commune. 
Also why did the one in Copenhagen get shut down? Were they squatting?

Edit: Fuck nevermind I read the link, thats horrible. They are really cracking down on the anarchist/autonomous communities in Europe these days. Probably from the riots in Greece awhile ago and the Tarnac Nine incident in France.

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## kidjordan

> Relation to self is inadmissible, so it is not the bad things that happen in life that makes us want to die, it is a failure in us. I failed to see that there are two fundamental psychologies in the world. It was my failure to try and think underneath all people were good.



I'm assuming you mean to survive and reproduce?

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## Philosopher8659

> I'm assuming you mean to survive and reproduce?



In the universal, every environmenal acquisition system of a living organism is to maintain and promote the life of that organism.

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## kidjordan

> In the universal, every environmenal acquisition system of a living organism is to maintain and promote the life of that organism.



While that may be a good way to explain the actions of all animals, it fails to explain why people would commit suicide if they wanted to "maintain and promote" their life.

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## Philosopher8659

> While that may be a good way to explain the actions of all animals, it fails to explain why people would commit suicide if they wanted to "maintain and promote" their life.



We fail or succeed in relation to our definition. Obviously, one cannot do both--that is a primitive of logic.

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## Dannon Oneironaut

I have lived outside or on the fringe of society most of my life. I lived for five years in a hollowed out redwood tree in Northern California a three day hike to the nearest road. I lived in a tent in Southern Oregon for ten years. Right now I live in a tent again in Colorado. Sometimes I get bored or tired of it and rent a house but I get sick of that real quick. I lived in a house in North Carolina. I lived outside in Hawaii and lived off the land and the sea. I have learned many survival skills and have made wild food about 50% of my diet, the other 50% being simple things like rice and beans and tea. I have lived in caves, etc.. Most of the time I didn't even have a tent and lived under fir trees or built my own shelters. I am not allergic to poison ivy or poison oak so I would build my camp in a field of poison oak so nobody would mess with my camps. This was if I was close to town. Usually I lived at least a two day hike out, except in Hawaii. In Hawaii I was too social to be a hermit. So many beautiful women to hang out with. 

I am planning the best way to leave society or at least be independent from it right now. I want the best of both worlds, I want to be free to do what I want, and I want to have fun with friends. My plan is to get (or build) a 80 foot sailboat (or a fleet of them) and sail the world. There are many many many uninhabited islands that are great for living on. The coast of British Columbia in Canada comes to mind and one could spend a lifetime exploring all those islands. Plus the climate is very pretty temperate there and there are lots of wilderness to live off of, not to mention fish. Then, with a sailboat or a fleet of them, I am free to travel for free anywhere the ocean goes. I know of great places in Central America where many ex-pats live in sailboats and dock for the winter. It is its own society in a way, the sailors. 

I know of many uninhabited tropical islands in Indonesia and Thailand and the Philipines, but some of these areas are dangerous because of pirates and of course the mandatory death penalty for even possessing a joint. But I know that in British Columbia I could grow all the weed I could want on those islands!!! 

The only problem is that the boat I want is expensive, I want a schooner. But that won't stop me. I used to live like a hermit in the woods with the animals (I have a bunch of great stories) but now I want to sail. That is freedom. Not hiding out in the woods but traveling with the wind energy eating coconuts, pineapples and fish and pickled food. Hanging out at the helm at night holding on to the wheel with my pipe of weed looking at the trillions of stars that are visible out there. 

I wouldn't even mind dying out there, maybe in a crazy storm. It is a great way to die. Of course, experienced sailors do not die in storms often. I know one women who sailed through a hurricane in the Bermuda Triangle and she thought that she was going to die, but she made it. 

I want to dock at port towns and throw great parties on the boat. Maybe charge admission to non-crew. Then set sail to the next destination. 

Anybody want to join my crew? PM me. Special consideration goes to people with sailing experience, chill people, and people I could trust my life with in a pinch, and people who want adventure and laid back lifestyle. Also, there will be opportunity to make money. I have a friend who brought many many pounds of Vanilla from Madagascar to France and made some great money. Also, he takes out rich tourists for a week and makes good money doing that.

----------


## saltyseedog

> am planning the best way to leave society or at least be independent from it right now. I want the best of both worlds, I want to be free to do what I want, and I want to have fun with friends. My plan is to get (or build) a 80 foot sailboat (or a fleet of them) and sail the world. There are many many many uninhabited islands that are great for living on. The coast of British Columbia in Canada comes to mind and one could spend a lifetime exploring all those islands. Plus the climate is very pretty temperate there and there are lots of wilderness to live off of, not to mention fish. Then, with a sailboat or a fleet of them, I am free to travel for free anywhere the ocean goes.



Dude this is exactly what I fantasied about doing!!!!!!!!!!!!! I dreamed of just living off fish and the land and scoring epic surf in lonely places in British Columbia, just living on a sail boat. 
From the time I was maybe 8 to 15 I wanted to be a deckhand on a fishing boat. I just wanted to be on the ocean all the time. I was in love with the ocean. I had a strong connection with it. But now I'm kind of different, I still love the ocean but this is not what I want anymore.
I would love to go with you but I am only 17 and this not where my life takes me. I know I would love it though and would be very happy.

----------


## tommo

> I have lived outside or on the fringe of society most of my life. I lived for five years in a hollowed out redwood tree in Northern California a three day hike to the nearest road. I lived in a tent in Southern Oregon for ten years. Right now I live in a tent again in Colorado. Sometimes I get bored or tired of it and rent a house but I get sick of that real quick. I lived in a house in North Carolina. I lived outside in Hawaii and lived off the land and the sea. I have learned many survival skills and have made wild food about 50% of my diet, the other 50% being simple things like rice and beans and tea. I have lived in caves, etc.. Most of the time I didn't even have a tent and lived under fir trees or built my own shelters. I am not allergic to poison ivy or poison oak so I would build my camp in a field of poison oak so nobody would mess with my camps. This was if I was close to town. Usually I lived at least a two day hike out, except in Hawaii. In Hawaii I was too social to be a hermit. So many beautiful women to hang out with. 
> 
> I am planning the best way to leave society or at least be independent from it right now. I want the best of both worlds, I want to be free to do what I want, and I want to have fun with friends. My plan is to get (or build) a 80 foot sailboat (or a fleet of them) and sail the world. There are many many many uninhabited islands that are great for living on. The coast of British Columbia in Canada comes to mind and one could spend a lifetime exploring all those islands. Plus the climate is very pretty temperate there and there are lots of wilderness to live off of, not to mention fish. Then, with a sailboat or a fleet of them, I am free to travel for free anywhere the ocean goes. I know of great places in Central America where many ex-pats live in sailboats and dock for the winter. It is its own society in a way, the sailors. 
> 
> I know of many uninhabited tropical islands in Indonesia and Thailand and the Philipines, but some of these areas are dangerous because of pirates and of course the mandatory death penalty for even possessing a joint. But I know that in British Columbia I could grow all the weed I could want on those islands!!! 
> 
> The only problem is that the boat I want is expensive, I want a schooner. But that won't stop me. I used to live like a hermit in the woods with the animals (I have a bunch of great stories) but now I want to sail. That is freedom. Not hiding out in the woods but traveling with the wind energy eating coconuts, pineapples and fish and pickled food. Hanging out at the helm at night holding on to the wheel with my pipe of weed looking at the trillions of stars that are visible out there. 
> 
> I wouldn't even mind dying out there, maybe in a crazy storm. It is a great way to die. Of course, experienced sailors do not die in storms often. I know one women who sailed through a hurricane in the Bermuda Triangle and she thought that she was going to die, but she made it. 
> ...



YES!  This is interesting.  Even more so because I had a dream last night where I was looking for something, I can't remember what, and I looked down at this list I had and your name was on it!  Curiously it also had something about Sarah Palin lol but I'll ignore that.

Hm.... PM on it's way.

----------


## Emecom

> I have lived outside or on the fringe of society most of my life. I lived for five years in a hollowed out redwood tree in Northern California a three day hike to the nearest road. I lived in a tent in Southern Oregon for ten years. Right now I live in a tent again in Colorado. Sometimes I get bored or tired of it and rent a house but I get sick of that real quick. I lived in a house in North Carolina. I lived outside in Hawaii and lived off the land and the sea. I have learned many survival skills and have made wild food about 50% of my diet, the other 50% being simple things like rice and beans and tea. I have lived in caves, etc.. Most of the time I didn't even have a tent and lived under fir trees or built my own shelters. I am not allergic to poison ivy or poison oak so I would build my camp in a field of poison oak so nobody would mess with my camps. This was if I was close to town. Usually I lived at least a two day hike out, except in Hawaii. In Hawaii I was too social to be a hermit. So many beautiful women to hang out with. 
> 
> I am planning the best way to leave society or at least be independent from it right now. I want the best of both worlds, I want to be free to do what I want, and I want to have fun with friends. My plan is to get (or build) a 80 foot sailboat (or a fleet of them) and sail the world. There are many many many uninhabited islands that are great for living on. The coast of British Columbia in Canada comes to mind and one could spend a lifetime exploring all those islands. Plus the climate is very pretty temperate there and there are lots of wilderness to live off of, not to mention fish. Then, with a sailboat or a fleet of them, I am free to travel for free anywhere the ocean goes. I know of great places in Central America where many ex-pats live in sailboats and dock for the winter. It is its own society in a way, the sailors. 
> 
> I know of many uninhabited tropical islands in Indonesia and Thailand and the Philipines, but some of these areas are dangerous because of pirates and of course the mandatory death penalty for even possessing a joint. But I know that in British Columbia I could grow all the weed I could want on those islands!!! 
> 
> The only problem is that the boat I want is expensive, I want a schooner. But that won't stop me. I used to live like a hermit in the woods with the animals (I have a bunch of great stories) but now I want to sail. That is freedom. Not hiding out in the woods but traveling with the wind energy eating coconuts, pineapples and fish and pickled food. Hanging out at the helm at night holding on to the wheel with my pipe of weed looking at the trillions of stars that are visible out there. 
> 
> I wouldn't even mind dying out there, maybe in a crazy storm. It is a great way to die. Of course, experienced sailors do not die in storms often. I know one women who sailed through a hurricane in the Bermuda Triangle and she thought that she was going to die, but she made it. 
> ...



Yeah this is way awesome. This has been a dream of mine for a few years now. I'm not in a good place to join you at the moment, But in a few years if your still planning it I would love to join you. Maybe not on the same boat because I would like to have my own small sailboat and trail along some times or go other places at other times.

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## kidjordan

Check this out if you want to live out on the water. 

Seasteading Institute

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## tommo

Looks like bullshit tbh.  They are still going to have a democracy and banking system etc.  It is inevitable that it will turn out like every other western, land society has.
Plus the point is to get away from society.  Be alone for a while, or a long while.

----------


## LucidFlanders

> I have lived outside or on the fringe of society most of my life. I lived for five years in a hollowed out redwood tree in Northern California a three day hike to the nearest road. I lived in a tent in Southern Oregon for ten years. Right now I live in a tent again in Colorado. Sometimes I get bored or tired of it and rent a house but I get sick of that real quick. I lived in a house in North Carolina. I lived outside in Hawaii and lived off the land and the sea. I have learned many survival skills and have made wild food about 50% of my diet, the other 50% being simple things like rice and beans and tea. I have lived in caves, etc.. Most of the time I didn't even have a tent and lived under fir trees or built my own shelters. I am not allergic to poison ivy or poison oak so I would build my camp in a field of poison oak so nobody would mess with my camps. This was if I was close to town. Usually I lived at least a two day hike out, except in Hawaii. In Hawaii I was too social to be a hermit. So many beautiful women to hang out with. 
> 
> I am planning the best way to leave society or at least be independent from it right now. I want the best of both worlds, I want to be free to do what I want, and I want to have fun with friends. My plan is to get (or build) a 80 foot sailboat (or a fleet of them) and sail the world. There are many many many uninhabited islands that are great for living on. The coast of British Columbia in Canada comes to mind and one could spend a lifetime exploring all those islands. Plus the climate is very pretty temperate there and there are lots of wilderness to live off of, not to mention fish. Then, with a sailboat or a fleet of them, I am free to travel for free anywhere the ocean goes. I know of great places in Central America where many ex-pats live in sailboats and dock for the winter. It is its own society in a way, the sailors. 
> 
> I know of many uninhabited tropical islands in Indonesia and Thailand and the Philipines, but some of these areas are dangerous because of pirates and of course the mandatory death penalty for even possessing a joint. But I know that in British Columbia I could grow all the weed I could want on those islands!!! 
> 
> The only problem is that the boat I want is expensive, I want a schooner. But that won't stop me. I used to live like a hermit in the woods with the animals (I have a bunch of great stories) but now I want to sail. That is freedom. Not hiding out in the woods but traveling with the wind energy eating coconuts, pineapples and fish and pickled food. Hanging out at the helm at night holding on to the wheel with my pipe of weed looking at the trillions of stars that are visible out there. 
> 
> I wouldn't even mind dying out there, maybe in a crazy storm. It is a great way to die. Of course, experienced sailors do not die in storms often. I know one women who sailed through a hurricane in the Bermuda Triangle and she thought that she was going to die, but she made it. 
> ...



Yep BC is pretty good, i should know, i live in BC.

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## Loaf

Uggh, I hope you aren't that same guy that announced he would live in the wild with nothing but a knife for the rest of his life, last year. 

Personally I think blaming society for anything is a lazy answer. If you want to go live alone in the bush out of, what, disgust with the world? Go ahead, society doesn't care lol.

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## tommo

Why would someone who does that care whether society cares or not?

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## Emecom

For me its not necessarily that I hate society, its more for adventure and self improvement.

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## tommo

Yeah, that too.

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## Loaf

Yeah, I hear alienating yourself from society is a really healthy choice and a great improvement.

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## tommo

On the other hand, society would be ecstatic if you left.

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## Loaf

> On the other hand, society would be ecstatic if you left.



I think you forgot the part about society not caring.

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## Tsukiomi

I have considered being self sufficent as of late. You need to know exactly what you are doing though. Living independently from society while growing all your own food, having clean/pure water (not with the stuff thats in tap water) and having much time for self study and introspection is really good for the mind and soul. Unfortuenately the system is such that you need to have quite a deal of money (or be an experienced architect with friends and a lot of free time to pull off making a house and buying land, etc. I salute the brave individuals who do this

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## Emecom

No actually Tsukiomi my Grandfather did it all by himself. He was an electrician so all the electrical things he already knew. But everything else he learned by talking to people and reading books. Now he has built an entire house into an Anasazi ruin in southern Utah. He has his own well, his own sun panels for power, he grows his food in an orchard and has a few pigs. So you don't need to be rich or an experienced architect, just a lot of time and diligence!

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## Loaf

> But everything else he learned by talking to people and reading books.



Relying on society to leave society. Win.

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## tommo

No, no that was if one of us left.

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## Loaf

> No, no that was if one of us left.



And you aren't? Isn't that what this topic is about.

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## tommo

Yes, it is.

----------


## Loaf

Err...

... you're right, you are entirely mad. Have your breakdown, go into woods, then realize how stupid the idea was hurp.

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## tommo

Thankyou.

What is stupid about wanting to be independent?
It's what everyone aims to be.  It's just that not many people
take it all the way.

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## LucidFlanders

> Err...
> 
> ... you're right, you are entirely mad. Have your breakdown, go into woods, then realize how stupid the idea was hurp.



It's not stupid. I'd never do it, i need human interaction. But just realize, not everyone wants to be part of society and they have their freedom to stay on the outside of it.

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## Loaf

> What is stupid about wanting to be independent?



Living alone in the forest does not make you independent. If you think living in society means you aren't self sufficient and everything is done for you, you don't know society much then do you.
Maybe hundreds of years a go building your own house out of logs alone in the middle of nowhere was a feat. Now its just weird. Enjoy social damage and general inconvenience so you could self-fulfil some kind of additional layer to your ego. Bohoo I hate society I'm running away forever. Just weird man, just weird.

----------


## tommo

> It's not stupid. I'd never do it, i need human interaction. But just realize, not everyone wants to be part of society and they have their freedom to stay on the outside of it.



Maybe you need to do it too then.  To realise that you don't _need_ other people.  You are correct though, and I'm not saying your choice is stupid either.





> Living alone in the forest does not make you independent. If you think living in society means you aren't self sufficient and everything is done for you, you don't know society much then do you.
> Maybe hundreds of years a go building your own house out of logs alone in the middle of nowhere was a feat. Now its just weird. Enjoy social damage and general inconvenience so you could self-fulfil some kind of additional layer to your ego. Bohoo I hate society I'm running away forever. Just weird man, just weird.



Kool man.  I like how you make a massive assumption about what I'm thinking.  It's basically the opposite of "adding a layer" to my ego.
It really just shows how dependent you are on society that you have to call other people stupid and weird for not conforming to it.

----------


## Emecom

> Living alone in the forest does not make you independent. If you think living in society means you aren't self sufficient and everything is done for you, you don't know society much then do you.
> Maybe hundreds of years a go building your own house out of logs alone in the middle of nowhere was a feat. Now its just weird. Enjoy social damage and general inconvenience so you could self-fulfil some kind of additional layer to your ego. Bohoo I hate society I'm running away forever. Just weird man, just weird.



I don't really understand your contempt for people wanting to live away from people. Everybody is different and I think they should follow what they want to do. If that means building a house in the woods and living on their own then, I think they should totally do it. On the other hand, if it means moving to a city, making tons of friends, and getting a job at a big corporation, then more power to them. There is no point in belittling someone for wanting to do something their way.

----------


## Loaf

> Kool man.  I like how you make a massive assumption about what I'm thinking.



Oh yeah, nothing to do with this entire topic and all the fluff you have been posting.





> I don't really understand your contempt for people wanting to live away from people. Everybody is different and I think they should follow what they want to do.



We have a guy who has decided that society is so terrible he wants to isolate himself in the woods and rely on nothing but his own skills; most of which he doesn't have. This isn't the architectural dream of a clever individual who seeks refuge in natures wonder, its some guy running away from people thinking he can build a stick house and life will be perfect forever. That's what I have gathered with what I've been reading. The icing on the cake is he speaks down to people who choose to live in society like they are being the idiots. Hilarious. 

He doesn't want to buy a house in the country, he wants to live with nothing the clothes on his back and whatever he can make. 

If your friend turned around and said they were leaving society to go live in the woods, would you encourage them? You shouldn't. Its unsafe and foolhardy.

----------


## tommo

> We have a guy who has decided that society is so terrible he wants to isolate himself in the woods and rely on nothing but his own skills; most of which he doesn't have**another massive assumption**. This isn't the architectural dream of a clever individual who seeks refuge in natures wonder **actually, it is.  Besides the architecture part**, its some guy running away from people thinking he can build a stick house and life will be perfect forever. That's what I have gathered with what I've been reading. The icing on the cake is he speaks down to people who choose to live in society like they are being the idiots. **Except that I haven't spoken down to anyone**Hilarious. 
> 
> He doesn't want to buy a house in the country, he wants to live with nothing the clothes on his back and whatever he can make.



God, what a horrible thing to dream of  ::shock:: 





> If your friend turned around and said they were leaving society to go live in the woods, would you encourage them? You shouldn't. Its unsafe and foolhardy.



The safety our society has created is an illusion.  The only thing we have which makes it safer is medicine, everything else just creates the illusion of safety.  Besides, I think it's well established that the more safety you have, the less free you are.

----------


## Loaf

You are absolutely mental. Why you posted this topic, I don't know. You wanted someone to tell you this idea isn't mad? It is.
Obviously there is no telling you otherwise. Go have fun fucking your life up now. <3

----------


## Dannon Oneironaut

There is nothing crazy about having survival skills. There is nothing crazy about practicing going into the woods with just a knife and thriving. There are thousands of people who do this. There is nothing crazy about not trusting this society to support us. However.... people do need companionship or else they go crazy. You need to have someone else around, even if he or she is a jerk or a bitch. Or else your best friend will end up being a basketball, or a rock. Hermits are either crazy or very spiritually advanced. The normal person needs people, or at least a dog or a cat. 

So, a group of like-minded people can support each other and create their own society that is more harmonious to their spirit than this current psychotic society. There is nothing wrong or crazy about rejecting this society if you have a better idea. And going back to nature is always a better idea. Being independent is hard and lonely. We are social creatures, we are inter-dependent. But what are you dependent on right now? What are you inter-dependent on? We are dependent on gas and oil, corporations and banks, etc... They need our labor and time in order to give them power and we need them to survive. What if this is not what fulfills you? What if you would rather be inter-dependent on your tribe, your family and friends, and nature? 

I have many friends here in Colorado who practice and teach survival skills. They can go into the woods with just a knife and their shoelaces and thrive. I used to do this, but it was lonely. I don't really need much, but I do need a circle of great stand-up people to be with. The Indians all work together to survive, and they had a great society. America's founding fathers learned more about democracy from the Indians than they did the Greeks. But now look at our democracy! They are trying to hold onto their ways, the Indians are. 

It is fine to leave society if you have a better idea. I have lived on many communes and visited hundreds, but I always left because the people may have had a good life, but they were not my family/friends. They were mostly old hippies and were very boring. I also have spent lots of time with anarchist/ squatter/ gutter-punks and although sometimes it was fun, mostly it was unhealthy and still dependent on society. 

So I have arrived at sailing. Sailing I will be intimately related to the elements, I will be self-sufficient, and I will have friends to spend time with on the open ocean and at port towns. I will not be confined to a nook of the forest, I can go into town and party all over the world. If society collapses my friends and I will be OK. Most of the time it will be easy lounging on deck with a steering wheel, and sometimes it will be an adrenaline filled battle with a storm. There is a society that left society and still can enjoy culture and that is the sailors.

----------


## Loaf

> There is nothing crazy about having survival skills. There is nothing crazy about practicing going into the woods with just a knife and thriving.



Clearly Tommo wants to take this far more seriously than survival skills and practice. What he is posting makes it sound long term.

----------


## tommo

And?

If I don't particularly enjoy anything this current western society has to offer me, why shouldn't I seek something else?

----------


## Loaf

> If I don't particularly enjoy anything this current western society has to offer me, why shouldn't I seek something else?



Oh, no no. Please do feel free to live in a quiet place. Just don't be a psycho about it and think you can build your own house out of logs and hunt your own food and survive with nothing. That is just mad.

You aren't abandoning society. You are abandoning innovation and technology because you think old times were so great. Which they weren't.

----------


## Dannon Oneironaut

Nothing wrong with that. There are people who do that and it is fun. In fact, people have always been doing that as long as there were people. This society is only a modern thing. It is really sad that animals have more rights than people sometimes. An animal is allowed to go live in the woods. A human is not allowed to unless he owns the land, and pays taxes. If he doesn't own the land then he is trespassing. Even homeless people don't have equal rights. While they cannot pass laws making it illegal to be homeless, they make laws around the homeless people making it impossible for homeless people to not break the law. People are more prejudiced against homeless people than any other minority. It is so widespread that it isn't even questioned. For example: in most places it is illegal to sleep anywhere accept in a house, or hotel, etc.... Even in your van or motor-home it is illegal to sleep. But they only enforce these laws on the people who are leaving society.

If someone wants to spend the rest of their life hunting and gathering and living in a wikiup the more power to them. There are people who like homesteading and living on the frontier and rightly so. Different strokes for different folks. In the state of Alaska wild game makes up about 70% to 80% of the food consumed by the whole state. 

Tommo, learn to make fire, learn to make an atlatl and bows and arrows and traps, to preserve meat and to tan hides. Learn to stay warm and dry. Learn where to find clay and how to make pottery and fire it. Learn how to make baskets and cordage. Find some friends who also like this and go practice it. It is so much fun when you successfully make your first fire without match or lighter, when you build a warm, dry, comfortable shelter, and can produce all the food you need. It just gets lonely. Also it is much easier for a group of people to work together than for an individual to survive. You will be too busy every day unless you live in the tropics.

----------


## Loaf

> Nothing wrong with that. There are people who do that and it is fun. In fact, people have always been doing that as long as there were people. This society is only a modern thing. *It is really sad that animals have more rights than people sometimes*.



Whoops
There goes your credibility.

----------


## tommo

> Whoops
> There goes your credibility.



Nice counter-point.

Thanks Dannon, I've looked up some of those things before.  Just looking forward to putting them in to practice.
I really do want to try it on my own, at least once.  But if I find people who want to do the same, that would be great also.

----------


## LucidFlanders

> There is nothing crazy about having survival skills. There is nothing crazy about practicing going into the woods with just a knife and thriving. There are thousands of people who do this. There is nothing crazy about not trusting this society to support us. However.... people do need companionship or else they go crazy. You need to have someone else around, even if he or she is a jerk or a bitch. Or else your best friend will end up being a basketball, or a rock. Hermits are either crazy or very spiritually advanced. The normal person needs people, or at least a dog or a cat. 
> 
> So, a group of like-minded people can support each other and create their own society that is more harmonious to their spirit than this current psychotic society. There is nothing wrong or crazy about rejecting this society if you have a better idea. And going back to nature is always a better idea. Being independent is hard and lonely. We are social creatures, we are inter-dependent. But what are you dependent on right now? What are you inter-dependent on? We are dependent on gas and oil, corporations and banks, etc... They need our labor and time in order to give them power and we need them to survive. What if this is not what fulfills you? What if you would rather be inter-dependent on your tribe, your family and friends, and nature? 
> 
> I have many friends here in Colorado who practice and teach survival skills. They can go into the woods with just a knife and their shoelaces and thrive. I used to do this, but it was lonely. I don't really need much, but I do need a circle of great stand-up people to be with. The Indians all work together to survive, and they had a great society. America's founding fathers learned more about democracy from the Indians than they did the Greeks. But now look at our democracy! They are trying to hold onto their ways, the Indians are. 
> 
> It is fine to leave society if you have a better idea. I have lived on many communes and visited hundreds, but I always left because the people may have had a good life, but they were not my family/friends. They were mostly old hippies and were very boring. I also have spent lots of time with anarchist/ squatter/ gutter-punks and although sometimes it was fun, mostly it was unhealthy and still dependent on society. 
> 
> So I have arrived at sailing. Sailing I will be intimately related to the elements, I will be self-sufficient, and I will have friends to spend time with on the open ocean and at port towns. I will not be confined to a nook of the forest, I can go into town and party all over the world. If society collapses my friends and I will be OK. Most of the time it will be easy lounging on deck with a steering wheel, and sometimes it will be an adrenaline filled battle with a storm. There is a society that left society and still can enjoy culture and that is the sailors.



If you ever come to Victoria BC (port town, Navy are here) send me a PM. I'm sure you wont be for many years, though.

----------


## LucidFlanders

> Maybe you need to do it too then.  To realise that you don't _need_ other people.  You are correct though, and I'm not saying your choice is stupid either.



I love camping and i'd LOVE to learn how to track like Locke from Lost, i thought that guy was awesome! but i'm just not into living in nature long term or short term unless it's a weekend thing in the bush.

----------


## Dannon Oneironaut

> Whoops
> There goes your credibility.



I am not trying to be credible to anybody, I am just talking the truth. Your response is an ad hominem. Those who hear me recognize it. If an animal has the right to live in the forest, why not man? I am not saying that animals have more rights than people, I am just saying that this is a right that animals have that humans don't. I could probably think of other rights that animals have that people don't. Ok, an animal is allowed to rape another animal. A mountain lion is allowed to kill a deer outside of deer hunting season. An animal is allowed to catch a fish anyway they can while people have to use the difficult method of a fishing pole. There are easier ways, but illegal, to catch a fish. Of course, an animal might not also give these rights to a human. A bear might say "You aren't allowed here, this is MY land." and kill me like in Grizzley Man.

@LucidFlanders: I have been to Victoria a couple times, very beautiful. Next time I go I will PM you if I remember to.

----------


## Loaf

> If an animal has the right to live in the forest, why not man?



Because man is not just any old animal. I am not talking about rights. Like any ANIMAL we create our own society. Ants have their dirt hill nests. Bees have their hives. Humans have their towns and cities. Its natural for creatures to live in societies of their own.

----------


## Dannon Oneironaut

Yes, but that doesn't mean that our society is a natural one that encourages sanity and happiness that we deserve. Leaving THIS society doesn't necessarily mean cutting off all relationships. There is actually a loose-knit society of survivalists out there who work together, not to mention Indians who still live the old way where they can get away with it, as well as a good portion of the population of out of the way places like Alaska, the Northern Territories, Siberia, Northern Scandinavia, and many big mountain ranges as well as lots of South America. Leaving THIS society to live a more natural and fulfilling life is fine, if someone wants to do it. It is one thing if you don't see the point of it or don't prefer it, but to criticize others for wanting to do it, or just being interested in the idea is kind of strange. 

tommo is not the only one who wants to leave this society. I also do. What do you think of my sailing idea? Is that crazy? There are tons of sailors who have done just that. I have left society already many times and if it weren't for certain obligations I would not be part of it now. There are many alternative societies out there that one can be a part of. There are a few societies that don't use money but have quite a modern technology of farming, etc. Actually more modern than our society's because they are completely self-sufficient and even produce their own fuel sustainably. That one is in Colombia but you have to trek some 40 miles through guerrilla infested jungle to get there. But there are pan-continental movements going on. I recommend tropical living because it is so much easier. Except that for some reason tropical areas seem to have either lots of violence like revolutionary war, civil war, racial war, or it is overtaken by the rich. It is funny how people can't live in peace in paradise. The Hawaiians were living in Paradise but somehow they would keep fighting each other, even though they had one King and Queen. But I lived very well outside of society in Hawaii. I was on Kauai but there is much more opportunity for that on the Big Island. There are lots of Vietnam Vets who live out there outside of society on the Big Island. South Western Oregon and Northern California has a lot of fugitives of the law living outside of society. Texas and New Mexico and Arizona has a lot of people living in the desert. The southern appalachian mountains also has lots of people living out there but they are kind of dangerously weird. Have you seen the movie Deliverance? 

Anyway, the challenge is to provide yourself with enough food. You burn a lot more calories in that lifestyle trying to hunt up a little food. It is virtually impossible to be a survivalist or a homesteader outside of the tropics and be a vegetarian. I did it, but in the winter I did depend on society for some food, much like the hermits of China. That is an interesting story: during the Cultural Revolution in China the army hunted out hermits and killed them. The ones who survived were the most extreme hermits living deep in the Kunlun Mountains (Mountains of the Moon) some of the tallest mountains in the world. But even they would come into town to buy tea and rice every once in a while. They were also mostly vegetarian and lived in extreme climate conditions. But it was their mastery of Taoist energy cultivation that enabled them to thrive and in some cases documented at living as long as 140 years and remaining kung fu masters and mentally alert.

The desert is kind of easy to live in if you have a source of water because there are plenty of rodents and rabbits to live off of. You could learn falconry and your falcon could be your friend and also get jackrabbits for you. I bet javelinas are tasty. But stay away from armadillos, they carry leprosy. Also, there are quite a few tasty cacti but most are bitter. The bitter ones taste better when roasted. Also roasted grasshoppers are a delicacy and a good source of protein. Just get a nice stick and swat them while you walk through the grass. Each time you kill one impale it on your skewer like a kabob. When your skewer is full make a small fire and roast them and you have lunch! Also you got to pick a butterfly's wings off before you eat him. Slugs make a good soup broth and add some wild onions and sunchoke tubers and yum! At first a lot of your food will taste bland because you probably don't have salt to put in it. But eventually your taste adapts and it tastes good. You get all the salt you need from the food. But if you live by the ocean then you have a source for salt and iodine. Iodine is important. I don't know how all these people thrived without iodine. That is why I never went too long without some sea-salt. 

For shelter you need two things: dry and insulating. Insulation is having air space in the walls. I guess tepees aren't so insulating but back then they were covered with buffalo hides rather than canvas. In a pinch you can take a garbage bag and fill it with crumpled up newspapers to use as a sleeping bag. And you can use cardboard as a sleeping mat to insulate you from the cold ground. But that is urban survival. 

Shelters are fun to build. Especially if it is not a matter of life and death. I have built lots of shelters, most of them temporary that I took down when I left. But I built a nice A-frame cabin in Northern California once. I salvaged a wood-burning-stove from an abandoned cabin. I actually carved a cave into a sandstone cliff once. I worked on that for about two years and it ended up being a very nice spacious protected comfortable inconspicuous home. I think I already told you that I lived in a cool redwood tree-trunk. Those were the days! Wikiups are easy and fun to build. It is difficult to waterproof them but I usually had a tarp. The best way to waterproof them is to shingle them with bark and clay mixed with grass. You can use just grass if you want to thatch it but I never did have the patience for that nor was I ever successful. And to think that you have to do it again once the grass rots! I also built a hut in the canyon in Sedona Arizona out of rock and dirt with a stick and grass roof. It barely rained there. 

Ah... if I didn't have responsibilities and obligations and commitments right now I would be living that way now. Now I live in a tent and have a car and have a job and buy most of my food... But someday! Someday soon! I can see that I could be free in six years, if the world will wait for me. 

By the way, in event of societal collapse, WWIII, famine or epidemics the best place to survive in the States is Western Colorado/Eastern Utah or Northern Nevada and Eastern Oregon.

As far as sailing goes, in the tropical areas there is the risk of falling prey to pirates. Pirates in the South Pacific and in Southwestern Asia and in the Mediterranean and off the coast of Africa. That is why sailors sail together in small fleets.

----------


## Loaf

> Yes, but that doesn't mean that our society is a natural one that encourages sanity and happiness that we deserve.



Natural? Well that is NATURAL human behaviour. And who says natural is "good" anyway? Rape happens in the natural world. So does murder. You saying we should adopt that too? And since when are all animals sane and happy? That's not guaranteed in the wild, and truly we can't tell how emotionally and mentally comfortable any animal is, if at all.

You know what else isn't natural? Lucid dreaming. "Naturally" we as humans aren't suppose to constantly be aware in our dreams, and most of the human race isn't even aware of how to do this.

----------


## Dannon Oneironaut

Whatever...

----------


## tommo

> Yes, but that doesn't mean that our society is a natural one that encourages sanity and happiness that we deserve. Leaving THIS society doesn't necessarily mean cutting off all relationships. There is actually a loose-knit society of survivalists out there who work together, not to mention Indians who still live the old way where they can get away with it, as well as a good portion of the population of out of the way places like Alaska, the Northern Territories, Siberia, Northern Scandinavia, and many big mountain ranges as well as lots of South America. Leaving THIS society to live a more natural and fulfilling life is fine, if someone wants to do it. It is one thing if you don't see the point of it or don't prefer it, but to criticize others for wanting to do it, or just being interested in the idea is kind of strange. 
> 
> tommo is not the only one who wants to leave this society. I also do. What do you think of my sailing idea? Is that crazy? There are tons of sailors who have done just that. I have left society already many times and if it weren't for certain obligations I would not be part of it now. There are many alternative societies out there that one can be a part of. There are a few societies that don't use money but have quite a modern technology of farming, etc. Actually more modern than our society's because they are completely self-sufficient and even produce their own fuel sustainably. That one is in Colombia but you have to trek some 40 miles through guerrilla infested jungle to get there. But there are pan-continental movements going on. I recommend tropical living because it is so much easier. Except that for some reason tropical areas seem to have either lots of violence like revolutionary war, civil war, racial war, or it is overtaken by the rich. It is funny how people can't live in peace in paradise. The Hawaiians were living in Paradise but somehow they would keep fighting each other, even though they had one King and Queen. But I lived very well outside of society in Hawaii. I was on Kauai but there is much more opportunity for that on the Big Island. There are lots of Vietnam Vets who live out there outside of society on the Big Island. South Western Oregon and Northern California has a lot of fugitives of the law living outside of society. Texas and New Mexico and Arizona has a lot of people living in the desert. The southern appalachian mountains also has lots of people living out there but they are kind of dangerously weird. Have you seen the movie Deliverance? 
> 
> Anyway, the challenge is to provide yourself with enough food. You burn a lot more calories in that lifestyle trying to hunt up a little food. It is virtually impossible to be a survivalist or a homesteader outside of the tropics and be a vegetarian. I did it, but in the winter I did depend on society for some food, much like the hermits of China. That is an interesting story: during the Cultural Revolution in China the army hunted out hermits and killed them. The ones who survived were the most extreme hermits living deep in the Kunlun Mountains (Mountains of the Moon) some of the tallest mountains in the world. But even they would come into town to buy tea and rice every once in a while. They were also mostly vegetarian and lived in extreme climate conditions. But it was their mastery of Taoist energy cultivation that enabled them to thrive and in some cases documented at living as long as 140 years and remaining kung fu masters and mentally alert.
> 
> The desert is kind of easy to live in if you have a source of water because there are plenty of rodents and rabbits to live off of. You could learn falconry and your falcon could be your friend and also get jackrabbits for you. I bet javelinas are tasty. But stay away from armadillos, they carry leprosy. Also, there are quite a few tasty cacti but most are bitter. The bitter ones taste better when roasted. Also roasted grasshoppers are a delicacy and a good source of protein. Just get a nice stick and swat them while you walk through the grass. Each time you kill one impale it on your skewer like a kabob. When your skewer is full make a small fire and roast them and you have lunch! Also you got to pick a butterfly's wings off before you eat him. Slugs make a good soup broth and add some wild onions and sunchoke tubers and yum! At first a lot of your food will taste bland because you probably don't have salt to put in it. But eventually your taste adapts and it tastes good. You get all the salt you need from the food. But if you live by the ocean then you have a source for salt and iodine. Iodine is important. I don't know how all these people thrived without iodine. That is why I never went too long without some sea-salt. 
> 
> For shelter you need two things: dry and insulating. Insulation is having air space in the walls. I guess tepees aren't so insulating but back then they were covered with buffalo hides rather than canvas. In a pinch you can take a garbage bag and fill it with crumpled up newspapers to use as a sleeping bag. And you can use cardboard as a sleeping mat to insulate you from the cold ground. But that is urban survival. 
> ...



You've truly traveled.  I'm assuming you learned all this by going to these places?
I'm quite envious, and I think I'll have to either move to Europe or America.
Out here in Australia all we have is pretty much desert or modern civilisation hehe.
Of course there's some amazing beaches that I would love to live in if I find a secluded area there.
All our rainforests etc. are watched by the state though, so I'd have to kill anything I ate with a knife or spear etc. I spose.

How do the Chinese Hermits live in the mountains on a vegetarian diet?
Unless it's the less snowy regions?  Going by google images it looks snowy for the most part.
I definitely want to visit China one day and Japan and find some Buddhist teachers.

----------


## dajo

> I'm quite envious, and I think I'll have to either move to Europe or America.



Why so western oriented?

----------


## tommo

Europe is so western isn't it?  I know most of it is, but some isn't.

For some reason when I say Europe, I've always meant the huge chunk of land that contains Europe and Asia.  Must have learned it wrong when I was a kid or something so it comes out when I don't think about it before I say it.
Nevertheless, there is still Sweden, Iceland etc. which are not really western, depending on how you define that.

The reason I said that is clearly because there are more diverse landscapes there.  I like Australia's completely unique landscape, it's beautiful, but there are different ones out there that I would like to see as well.

----------


## LucidFlanders

I would not mind trying some of that Western medicine i'm always hearing about from DV. I get migranes a lot so something natural that works will be a better way to go then living off asprin which is harmfull in the long run (go figure it does not mention this on the bottle IIRC). Perhaps even try out that chi some of the guys use that makes tin foil turn hot and steamy.

----------


## IndieAnthias

I'm just going to drop in and drop out just as quickly, for the purpose of making a reading suggestion. This should be beneficial to anyone participating in this discussion who finds the idea of living outside of mainstream society to be outlandish. The book is called Ishmael, written by Daniel Quinn. Keep an open mind and you'll get a lot out of this simple book.

Take it or leave it :p

----------


## tommo

> I would not mind trying some of that Western medicine i'm always hearing about from DV. I get migranes a lot so something natural that works will be a better way to go then living off asprin which is harmfull in the long run (go figure it does not mention this on the bottle IIRC). Perhaps even try out that chi some of the guys use that makes tin foil turn hot and steamy.



You mean Eastern?
Most of it is useless.  Besides making you feel good via placebo.
But there are medicines better, or at least as good as (depending how you measure it), Western medicine in Eastern medicine.
Especially for migraines; there are psilocybin mushrooms and DMT.
50mg of psilocybin works for most migraines and you'll probably barely even notice a change in perception.

BTW, aspirin is natural.  It comes from willow bark.

I'm not sure why you posted that in here.  There's probably something I'm missing, but I'll give you this information nonetheless.

----------


## LucidFlanders

> You mean Eastern?
> Most of it is useless.  Besides making you feel good via placebo.
> But there are medicines better, or at least as good as (depending how you measure it), Western medicine in Eastern medicine.
> Especially for migraines; there are psilocybin mushrooms and DMT.
> 50mg of psilocybin works for most migraines and you'll probably barely even notice a change in perception.
> 
> BTW, aspirin is natural.  It comes from willow bark.
> 
> I'm not sure why you posted that in here.  There's probably something I'm missing, but I'll give you this information nonetheless.



Maybe it was Eastern, i forget. I posted it because you were talking about Western.

----------


## Loaf

> You mean Eastern?
> Most of it is useless.  Besides making you feel good via placebo.



/facepalm

This sums you up.

----------


## Emecom

> You mean Eastern?
> Most of it is useless.  Besides making you feel good via placebo.
> But there are medicines better, or at least as good as (depending how you measure it), Western medicine in Eastern medicine.
> Especially for migraines; there are psilocybin mushrooms and DMT.
> 50mg of psilocybin works for most migraines and you'll probably barely even notice a change in perception.
> 
> BTW, aspirin is natural.  It comes from willow bark.
> 
> I'm not sure why you posted that in here.  There's probably something I'm missing, but I'll give you this information nonetheless.



I don't know if I would take DMT for migraines. I guess psilocybin could work. If I were you i would just make some cannibinoil and add it to food. You will get pretty stoned depending on how much you add, but it should take away your migraines easy.

----------


## dajo

> Europe is so western isn't it?  I know most of it is, but some isn't.
> 
> For some reason when I say Europe, I've always meant the huge chunk of land that contains Europe and Asia.  Must have learned it wrong when I was a kid or something so it comes out when I don't think about it before I say it.
> Nevertheless, there is still Sweden, Iceland etc. which are not really western, depending on how you define that.



Iceland is really cold most of the year. A couple of friends lived there for a few years - you need a job and a house for sure. They worked with disabled people and it wasn't actually payed that badly and a (really nice) place to stay was included. There are not many countries, where you can just start living in the wild. 

A while ago I was also getting sick of the same old (and Europe and Northern America are not really all that different) and wanted to explore more of the world. So I moved to Cambodia (that's just me, have been here for about a year now) and am loving it. (I went about it relatively smart) There are many people here doing all kinds of things: Musicians, Artists, NGOs, Cultural Managers, Teachers, Journalists, People that opened up a bar or guest house, and many more. But most of them have something interesting to tell, it's a more 'fun kind of society'. You can try out different things, meet people that have lived in alternative communities, regularly travel to india, have travelled all over the world, you can do retreats around SEAsia (meditation or whatever), recently I met a guy who basically just lives with fishing families and goes out fishing every morning - there are many more options... and of course there are a lot more countries in this area to pick. And you have a lot of options to choose from, even as an entrepreneur. 

Just a thought: Explore a little what's out there before just dropping out entirely. Just try out a few things first and see what may be right for you. You are definitely not alone with the need to get out - and many people have done it. Compare, experiment, find your way.

----------


## tommo

> I don't know if I would take DMT for migraines. I guess psilocybin could work. If I were you i would just make some cannibinoil and add it to food. You will get pretty stoned depending on how much you add, but it should take away your migraines easy.



lol DMT works.  Psilocybin is DMT anyway.  Just not N,N-DMT.
Of course you would only need a tiny dose as well.

Cannabis works too.





> Iceland is really cold most of the year. A couple of friends lived there for a few years - you need a job and a house for sure. They worked with disabled people and it wasn't actually payed that badly and a (really nice) place to stay was included. There are not many countries, where you can just start living in the wild. 
> 
> A while ago I was also getting sick of the same old (and Europe and Northern America are not really all that different) and wanted to explore more of the world. So I moved to Cambodia (that's just me, have been here for about a year now) and am loving it. (I went about it relatively smart) There are many people here doing all kinds of things: Musicians, Artists, NGOs, Cultural Managers, Teachers, Journalists, People that opened up a bar or guest house, and many more. But most of them have something interesting to tell, it's a more 'fun kind of society'. You can try out different things, meet people that have lived in alternative communities, regularly travel to india, have travelled all over the world, you can do retreats around SEAsia (meditation or whatever), recently I met a guy who basically just lives with fishing families and goes out fishing every morning - there are many more options... and of course there are a lot more countries in this area to pick. And you have a lot of options to choose from, even as an entrepreneur. 
> 
> Just a thought: Explore a little what's out there before just dropping out entirely. Just try out a few things first and see what may be right for you. You are definitely not alone with the need to get out - and many people have done it. Compare, experiment, find your way.



Thanks mate.  I am definitely going to travel a bit first.

As for the cold, I love it.  Besides my hands hurting constantly, but that's not really a big deal.
I would love to live there.  It just looks beautiful and calm.  I also hear that there are whales right off the shore.
Also Sigur Ros live there  ::lol::  haha

Thanks for the advice!  ::D:

----------


## Emecom

Oh I didn't know that about DMT. While I knew it occurred naturally in animals, I always just thought of in the ayahuasca form which is suppose to be pretty powerful. But yeah I think Iceland would be awesome as well. But for now I want somewhere tropical!

----------


## Emecom

I would post pictures of my Grandfathers home on here but I'm not really sure how ha ha. Also I thought I would mention the fact that he is a very very determined person and has very high ADD. He is 72 and is almost always outside his yard working on new projects for his place.

----------


## tommo

> I would post pictures of my Grandfathers home on here but I'm not really sure how ha ha. Also I thought I would mention the fact that he is a very very determined person and has very high ADD. He is 72 and is almost always outside his yard working on new projects for his place.



 Just click the attachment icon up the top, the little paperclip.

----------


## Emecom

CIMG0801.jpgCIMG0800.jpg

Okay sweet! The first one shows pretty much the whole front of the house. On top of the cliff is where he keeps his solar panels, then to the left of the picture he has his orchard. The second picture shows the cave that leads up to his front door. These are the only pictures I can find right now, but I will keep looking to find more.

----------


## Dannon Oneironaut

Very cool!

----------


## Emecom

Yeah its pretty sweet. I never really learned to appreciate it until the past few years, but now I love it!

----------


## juroara

> This society is only a modern thing. It is really sad that animals have more rights than people sometimes. An animal is allowed to go live in the woods. A human is not allowed to unless he owns the land, and pays taxes. If he doesn't own the land then he is trespassing.



I want to discuss Dannon's idea because hes right,_it is_ a problem, its a huge problem. And part of the problem is not enough people even question it enough to realize its a problem.

How many miles do you have to travel before you have access to a park? 

Americans are obsessed with this silly and insane idea of private ownership. So we take fertile land, divide it up into boxes and create a zillion private yards. Why is owning a yard a status symbol? Really think about it. Why is owning a tree, or grass a status symbol? Thats how much we biologically love - of all things - plant life. We have a symbiotic relationship with plants, and we desire to be with them.

We fooled ourselves into believing that by privately owning land we can ensure having access to land. *But its not working very well*. These yards are so pathetic in terms of satisfying a humans desire to be in the company of plants, that yard owning people still get in the car and drive miles to find a large green park. Lets face it, backyards are dull and boring.

Our obsession with privatizing land has made a stark class division.* Those who own yards. Those who don't.* This class division goes further. Having access to plants influences your emotional health. Cities with less trees have HIGHER CRIME RATES. Those who don't own yards are statistically under more stress. (and you wonder why desert nations are always at war)

Ah, but you can argue "Oh but we have public parks for this reason, so that those who don't own yards can enjoy some trees". But thats really missing the point. 

We have a very tiny planet. And its literally not large enough for everyone to have a private yard without having harmful effects to the eco-system. Architects realize that humans have a legitimate need to enjoy large expanses of land - and - we all desire to *live very near this large expanse of land*. Even more than live near it, *a desire to be a part of it* (the true purpose of the boring backyard). So they asked themselves, how can they design a human habitat and satisfy mans desire to enjoy and be a part of NATURE (a biodiversity)? Their solution is so simple and eloquent its mind blowing - *Get rid of the fences.*

Seriously! That's the solution. No more backyard fences. Suburbia is huge. HUUUUGE. You get rid of all those backyard fences, and what you're left with is an amazing large plot of land. A park! But its more than a park.

I live next to a park. It doesn't satisfy my need to have access to land. I want to grow a garden, I don't have the rights to grow a garden in a park. A worm in the park is more free than me, they at least get to dig.

What architects are suggesting is a simple merge of both public and private land all at the same time. Home owners can still USE a portion of the land as their own, and grow what ever they want, while leaving a very large area open for the entire neighborhood to enjoy. 

We need this ideology that land can be both public and private simultaneously everywhere. We need to ensure that every human being has access to land, and a right to USE land. Going back to Dannons example, that homeless man can't even grow a vegetable garden even if he wanted. Seriously! (growing vegetables has fed us for thousands of years, why not???) *Its against the law.* He first has to own the land or be given access to the land by someone who owns the land. And if he owned land....hes probably not homeless.

We no longer have access to USE land unless we own it, which requires signing away your soul to a bank*. I think we've given up a very fundamental human-god-universe-given-right. Every other creature uses the earth as they please. Why are the only ones who are stupid?

*
Private ownership of land is imaginary on all levels. It is! Nature doesn't give a damn that you claim to "own" this land, the ants are still going to build their nest on your perfect lawn. Lets not even get into national borders, what a joke that is. I think its poetic karma that now our imagined institutions also realize how imaginary private ownership is, and play the game against us! Take banks for example.

The banks tell you *"Why pay rent! Own a house and only pay this amount monthly"*. Well that sounds like rent to me, and you know what it is. You're not even gonna find any real difference between a family renting a house, and a family paying mortgage (because theres not!). You want to argue that home owners get more freedom with their home? No they dont. Theres all sorts of rules and regulations on the outer appearance of their home, much like the rules and regulations that come with renting. Its tragic, its sad, and its astounding that we even use the terminology _Home Owners._. 

How many home owners actually own their home? Ummmm........Not many. Id say well over 90% of homes are owned by banks, including the yards.

So............given that suburbia is a disease growing everywhere...........thats a lot of land owned by an IMAGINARY INSTITUTION THAT IS NOT LIVING! And were in DEBT to this imaginary institution?

Were insane!

This is not society. Its just insanity. There is a better way for society to use land, publicly and privately. But we will never know that better way if we don't first realize that as earthlings, and we have a birth rite to land. *A birth rite to use land that transcends money, that transcends economics, politics, culture, religion, and all imaginary property lines*. And we need to realize that our systems undermine our birth rite. We need to imagine something better, something fit for a human.

----------


## tommo

> Yeah its pretty sweet. I never really learned to appreciate it until the past few years, but now I love it!



It's insanely cool!  Did he buy that land?  Or just start building? lol
I love it.  It would be so cool (temperature wise) in the summer too.

I usually get bored of your posts after you start talking about supernatural stuff,
but that post is so right it's not funny.  Thanks juroara!
But again, unfortunately, not many people will ever share our view.

----------


## Emecom

Yeah he bought it. It would be pretty sweet if he just started building. He got an insanely good price for it though, and owns a lot of land around his house.

----------


## Unelias

Well I live in Finland so it wouldn't be a big effort to remove myself completely. Although the hand of taxman reaches even into the darkest swamps...

----------


## Morte

For me a little wood shack with a a generator, a Dog, a couple rabbits and a hunting rifle in the arse end of scottland would be enough to live on

----------


## NikolaTesla

> CIMG0801.jpgCIMG0800.jpg
> 
> Okay sweet! The first one shows pretty much the whole front of the house. On top of the cliff is where he keeps his solar panels, then to the left of the picture he has his orchard. The second picture shows the cave that leads up to his front door. These are the only pictures I can find right now, but I will keep looking to find more.



Wow. Just wow. I hope to be able to do something like that someday.

----------


## saltyseedog

> So............given that suburbia is a disease growing everywhere...........thats a lot of land owned by an IMAGINARY INSTITUTION THAT IS NOT LIVING! And were in DEBT to this imaginary institution?



My thoughts exactly my entire life. Imaginary lines. imaginary rules to live our lives by. Its stupidity.

----------


## Emecom

> Wow. Just wow. I hope to be able to do something like that someday.



Yeah thanks. It is a pretty amazing place that's for sure.





> My thoughts exactly my entire life. Imaginary lines. imaginary rules to live our lives by. Its stupidity.



Yeah I agree. What is even more stupid, is how people came to "own" the land anyway. They just came to an area, called it theirs, and built up fences to prove it was theirs.

----------


## IndieAnthias

> For example: in most places it is illegal to sleep anywhere accept in a house, or hotel, etc.... Even in your van or motor-home it is illegal to sleep. But they only enforce these laws on the people who are leaving society



the truth of that statement has been festering in my mind since I read it. Thanks, lol.

----------


## Dannon Oneironaut

It is not society that I want to leave. It is THIS society. 
I can imagine the ideal society I would like to be a part of:
A society where all land is public. A society where necessities for life are free. A society where everybody shares the labor necessary to survive and helps those who are unable. A compassionate society where everyone has the right to think and feel and say and do what they want as long as it doesn't interfere with anybody else's right to do the same. Freedom. Responsibility and respect for the Earth rather than for money and the illusory economy. I hate that excuse "It is not economically feasible." While unsustainable and exploitive practices are economically feasible? A society without fences. 

I can keep going, it is a way of life for me and I keep traveling and searching it out and meeting with like-minded people. My only hope is that someday we find what we are looking for and can share it with each other. The boat is my dream. I am thinking that I may have to build it, but I will need a big warehouse near the ocean to do that. And lots of money. See? See how this society gets in the way of doing what logically makes sense? I wonder if I am even allowed to go out into the forest and cut the timber I will need to build my boat. 

I enjoyed that article or website somebody posted about sea colonies. What a great idea! If land is not public at least the sea is! We have freedom at sea. 

But I have been really enjoying learning a lot from hanging out with the Indians. They really know a lot about good community and good society.

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## tommo

> The boat is my dream. I am thinking that I may have to build it, but I will need a big warehouse near the ocean to do that. And lots of money. See? See how this society gets in the way of doing what logically makes sense? I wonder if I am even allowed to go out into the forest and cut the timber I will need to build my boat.



Some places you probably are allowed to do that.
There are also secluded areas most likely where you can build a boat.
Maybe someone near the ocean could lend you some space to do it also, those people around fishing towns are usually pretty friendly.





> I enjoyed that article or website somebody posted about sea colonies. What a great idea! If land is not public at least the sea is! We have freedom at sea.



Some parts anyway.  Countries still "own" certain areas.  Actually I think there is only one place which isn't owned, classified under "International Laws", but it's full of pirates.

There is also the ant/arctic, but living there would be incredibly harsh.

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## Dannon Oneironaut

> Some places you probably are allowed to do that.
> There are also secluded areas most likely where you can build a boat.
> Maybe someone near the ocean could lend you some space to do it also, those people around fishing towns are usually pretty friendly.
> 
> 
> Some parts anyway.  Countries still "own" certain areas.  Actually I think there is only one place which isn't owned, classified under "International Laws", but it's full of pirates.
> 
> There is also the ant/arctic, but living there would be incredibly harsh.



Most of the ocean is international waters that are subject to international maritime laws. But those laws are very lax. The Waters a country owns only extend about 60 miles off the coast. There really aren't many pirates and pirates don't target individual sailors but big cargo ships. There are only about 25 pirate attacks a year and only about 3 deaths. Most of these are in the Indian Ocean either by Singapore or off the west coast of Africa.

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## Xaqaria

I personally do not want to "leave society" exactly. Rather I want to abandon the existing society to start a new one. I don't want to go off on my own, forsaking my fellow man, but rather I would convince as many as I could to come with me and start a new society of our own. This is what I believe our future holds; decentralized self sustaining communities that are consensually interdependent with each other.government without the interfering

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## tommo

I say all of us here start that community.   ::D: 

Would be good.

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## Xaqaria

The first question to answer is, where is the land?

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## Marvo

Let's sell DV and build a spacestation.

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## Xaqaria

Believe it or not, I might actually be making strides to do this within the next two years. The location is already somewhat secured although would remain under ownership of another person. Hopefully I will be taking a trip to check the place out at the end of the summer.

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## SergSG

> I say all of us here start that community.  
> 
> Would be good.



That would be AWESOME!!  :Oh noes:

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## kidjordan

> That would be AWESOME!!



I think we should start off small. Like have a small retreat for a few days or a week. Hopefully everyone here is near the midwest? Or west coast when I go to college.

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## SergSG

> I think we should start off small. Like have a small retreat for a few days or a week. Hopefully everyone here is near the midwest? Or west coast when I go to college.



 Well of course we would have to start off somewhere, right? But who knows maybe in the future DV will do some kind of retreat or gathering for its members. Oh and I live on the west coast.

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## Dannon Oneironaut

Xaq, keep me in mind. I have experience. Also, we may be kindred spirits since we both have ridiculous mustaches and see eye to eye on many socio-economic issues. Where are you thinking? Vermont? Brrrrr....

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## JussiKala

> It is not society that I want to leave. It is THIS society. 
> I can imagine the ideal society I would like to be a part of:
> A society where all land is public. A society where necessities for life are free. A society where everybody shares the labor necessary to survive and helps those who are unable. A compassionate society where everyone has the right to think and feel and say and do what they want as long as it doesn't interfere with anybody else's right to do the same. Freedom. Responsibility and respect for the Earth rather than for money and the illusory economy. I hate that excuse "It is not economically feasible." While unsustainable and exploitive practices are economically feasible? A society without fences. 
> 
> I can keep going, it is a way of life for me and I keep traveling and searching it out and meeting with like-minded people. My only hope is that someday we find what we are looking for and can share it with each other. The boat is my dream. I am thinking that I may have to build it, but I will need a big warehouse near the ocean to do that. And lots of money. See? See how this society gets in the way of doing what logically makes sense? I wonder if I am even allowed to go out into the forest and cut the timber I will need to build my boat. 
> 
> I enjoyed that article or website somebody posted about sea colonies. What a great idea! If land is not public at least the sea is! We have freedom at sea. 
> 
> But I have been really enjoying learning a lot from hanging out with the Indians. They really know a lot about good community and good society.



These were my thoughts too. It's not society itself, it's this society. I often day dream about a better society. Too bad it's something that we most likely won't reach anytime soon

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## Xaqaria

> Xaq, keep me in mind. I have experience. Also, we may be kindred spirits since we both have ridiculous mustaches and see eye to eye on many socio-economic issues. Where are you thinking? Vermont? Brrrrr....



I will keep you in mind. From my experience on this site, you and I have nearly exactly the same idea of what would be good. The location I have in mind now is in northern california but who knows? If the planet changes the direction of rotation in 2012 and every volcano on earth erupts, the west coast and basically the entire western third of this country will become mostly uninhabitable (yellowstone national park is actually a giant volcano; watch 2012 for a pretty accurate depiction of what it's eruption would look like) so maybe... asheville NC? I know some people down there and it seems like a good enough place. Lots of open space in NC. I can't know for sure for a little while. If the economy goes tits up by the end of this summer, I will be trucking off to the woods of northern CA at first anyway. My number one goal for the next 2 years is to just keep a good potential for mobility (my bus) and highly adaptable to change.

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## Dannon Oneironaut

Yes, Northern California is great. I have been in between there and Southern Oregon for the past month and this is an area where if the economy collapses people will be fine. It is the State of Jefferson!!! It is far from any nuclear reactors and any major military targets. On the coast there is a risk of Earthquakes, but it is rural with no skyscrapers or gas lines. There is a risk of tsunami in some areas but they have sirens and alerts. There is a great underground economy out here and the peasants are prosperous. Asheville NC is great, I also have lived there. However, that area of the country is more toxic and there are many nuclear reactors near there and chemical plants. Not to mention some very old-school hillbilly rednecks out there in the woods. If shit ever goes down, they might turn on us. But Asheville is a great town. The West is the Best though.

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## Xaqaria

Awesome. If you're still up there around september october, I'll be taking a trip up that way.

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## petersonad

I've always dreamed of getting away and living in a small house in the center of Antartica, wirh my mate.

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## Emecom

Wow Antarctica would be crazy cold. I don't think I could handle it there. But if you could get past that, it would be pretty sweet. I have been thinking of going to Alaska, because among other things, you get a lot of money every year just for living there.

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## Kuhnada29

Yea I would like to leave society, just for a week or two. Go to California where the mountains are, or some mountains in Japan...and just meditate the entire 1 to 2 weeks. Meditation retreat I guess. 

It's not this society that's the problem, it's the people in it. In this society (America) People are extremely narcissistic, selfish, hypocritical, self-centered, hateful, ungrateful for what they have, just want to get away from it.......just for a little while

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## Xaqaria

What is the difference between a society and the people in it?

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## Never

I have been doing this for years now, but unless you have allies, do not expect it to be romantic. Yes, it is way better than some of the other choices that society now constrains one to, but be realistic about it.

I have been living this way out of principle mainly, as I firmly believe that one must lead by example, and that is what I have always done, though it has left me friendless my whole life. People fear what they do not understand, as most here know.

I am not completely without amenities. I still have my car, filled with all of my gear. Tons of military gear mostly. I have a -50 degree sleep system and all the winter gear I need, weapons galore (swords, guns, bows) 2000 rounds of ammo, extra food, tools, ponchos, tarps, and a TON more all in this little '86 Firebird. Anything that I owned (outside of music, this laptop, and a bag full of other technological devices) that could not be classified as "survival gear" was thrown away long ago. The car is really my lifeline, as unfortunately like everyone else of this generation, I have had to learn every skill I have on my own with no help, as virtually nobody these days knows how to do anything but what their career demands.

I live in the woods most of the time, except for more serious situations. For example in 2009 we had about 27 consecutive days of rain or something....and notwithstanding all my preparedness and endurance, 3 weeks was about as much as I was willing to endure; so I lived in the car for the last few days. Having the car allows me to be mobile obviously, and having a shiny sports car really helps to deter police from harassing me in parking lots (it makes me not look like a vagrant). I keep 1,000 dollars hidden for vehicle repairs and gear replacement while I spend most of my time, even after all of these years, training to survive without a car or other helpful gear.

I agree with Xaqaria about starting new communities. This is in fact what I really desire. Real "society" is something that has been lost in my opinion. It has become a Facebook, texting, cell phone world. I know it is different down south where people still talk to each other, but up here people don't even look you in the eye; I don't know if it is fear or whether people believe they are the only ones on earth.

The idea of leaving society for a principle is great, and I applaud all those who try it as it makes me feel as though I am not completely wasting my time. Most of my days are anything but enjoyable, but the only other option is death, as I must be free. When I tell people how I live, it is usually met with confusion and often disdain, as if I had some sort of nefarious intent. I sincerely hope that someday people will learn that what matters most is what is right, not what is comfortable; though perhaps I am crazy.

I have been to NC. In fact I was in Uwharrie national forest for a short time, but for me it was just too hot and humid. I just got back from there last week actually. Food is abundant there, but so are the bugs. The winter is great there, but the summer is not for me. I spent most of my time sitting on a log drinking water faster than I purified it.

All in all, it is well worth it. I have slept in some of the strangest places and under some very strange circumstances. I spent 4 months in parking lots once and a year on top of a mountain under some of the darkest skies in the country (breathtaking views of the cosmos that blow away anything you can see on a television).

It seems the last few times I came back to this forum there were threads about this sort of lifestyle, and it is refreshing to see. Above all else we must follow our hearts and act out our philosophies. Life is too short (or too long).

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## tommo

> The car is really my lifeline, as unfortunately like everyone else of this generation, I have had to learn every skill I have on my own with no help, as virtually nobody these days knows how to do anything but what their career demands.



Wow, that is so true.  Never thought about that specifically.  But it is definitely how it is these days.  People may give you passing platitudes on things, but nobody ever really trains you for anything.  Unless it's at school, which is a pathetic excuse for education anyway.





> I agree with Xaqaria about staring new communities. This is in fact what I really desire. Real "society" is something that has been lost in my opinion. It has become a Facebook, texting, cell phone world. I know it is different down south where people still talk to each other, but up here people don't even look you in the eye; I don't know if it is fear or whether people believe they are the only ones on earth.



Also very true.  Some places are different.
But generally, we are just a group of people living in a congregated area.  But having no contact or friendliness or caring between the people living in the area.
Unless you're forced to make friends with some of them because you go to the same building as them.





> The idea of leaving society for a principle is great, and I applaud all those who try it as it makes me feel as though I am not completely wasting my time. Most of my days are anything but enjoyable, but the only other option is death, as I must be free. When I tell people how I live, it is usually met with confusion and often disdain, as if I had some sort of nefarious intent. I sincerely hope that someday people will learn that what matters most is what is right, not what is comfortable; though perhaps I am crazy.



Yes I really hope there is always a number of people who reject our modern "society".
I'm not sure it should be based solely on principle though.
It would have to have some basis.  The life outside of society has to offer something better.
Principles are good, as long as they have a point.





> All in all, it is well worth it. I have slept in some of the strangest places and under some very strange circumstances. I spent 4 months in parking lots once and a year on top of a mountain under some of the darkest skies in the country (breathtaking views of the cosmos that blow away anything you can see on a television).



This would be the best thing.  There's way too much light pollution, even in the outer suburbs, to see the sky.  Mostly because streetlights have uneconomic (80% of the light doesn't even go downward) and cheap covers.
Whenever I'm in the country/beach, I just look at the sky for ages.





> It seems the last few times I came back to this forum there were threads about this sort of lifestyle, and it is refreshing to see. Above all else we must follow our hearts and act out our philosophies. Life is too short (or too long).



I think the main reason most people don't end up leaving is that they are waiting for other people to go with them.  But those other people are also waiting.

Not many people want to be alone for more than a day.
I personally don't think I'd mind.  I don't talk much anyway.  But, I'm not really sure either, because I've never been alone for very long.

But I think that is the main reason more people aren't doing this.
Maybe I should set up a message board or something for people that want to connect with others.  Although that might be a bit dangerous.... Going out in to the wild with strangers and all.

I dunno.

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## Never

> Yes I really hope there is always a number of people who reject our modern "society".I'm not sure it should be based solely on principle though.It would have to have some basis.  The life outside of society has to offer something better.Principles are good, as long as they have a point.



A principle without a basis is really no principle at all, so I agree.  What is offered is freedom; always in choices like these the outcome is not always the best. Sometimes in choosing freedom, the free life is not what it could be, but one understands that without freedom, all is lost, not just for oneself, but for everyone.





> This would be the best thing.  There's way too much light pollution, even in the outer suburbs, to see the sky.  Mostly because streetlights have uneconomic (80% of the light doesn't even go downward) and cheap covers. Whenever I'm in the country/beach, I just look at the sky for ages.



Indeed. I am glad that you know about these things. Guess I need to spend more time online. Usually when you talk to people about the inefficiency and waste of money caused by porch lights you see the eyes glaze over and the weight start to shift back and forth. Most people cannot even point out the constellation Cygnus, or where you are, perhaps the southern cross.

Indeed I spend most of my nights lying on a sleeping pad looking up for as long as there is darkness. I have some good binocs too....the biggest one can buy, damn things are heavy, but I must have seen just about all of the Messier Catalogue by now.






> I think the main reason most people don't end up leaving is that they are waiting for other people to go with them.  But those other people are also waiting.
> 
> Not many people want to be alone for more than a day.
> I personally don't think I'd mind.  I don't talk much anyway.  But, I'm not really sure either, because I've never been alone for very long.



This is wise thinking. I have spent ALL of my life alone, and yet, the first time I went out, I was quite surprised at how much the world can close in around you out here. Decide what it is worth to you and get out as much as you can before you make a huge decision, unless of course it becomes necessary, as it was for me.





> But I think that is the main reason more people aren't doing this.
> Maybe I should set up a message board or something for people that want to connect with others.  Although that might be a bit dangerous.... Going out in to the wild with strangers and all.



Everything is dangerous. Danger is where the excitement is....just don't be stupid about it like most people; pick wise individuals, not retards, and arm yourself if possible; you cannot get a firearm in Australia, but arm yourself nevertheless. Trust, like respect, is earned.

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## kidjordan

Excellent resource for people interested in living w/o money or trying to leave society (because money and society go pretty much hand in hand). 

Amazon.com: The Moneyless Man: A Year of Freeconomic Living (9781851687817): Mark Boyle: Books

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