# Lucid Dreaming > Dream Control >  >  Dream Morality...

## Greg

All right... I've been looking around the forums for the past couple days and keep hearing about lucid dream morality and whatnot.  I hear about people asking their dream characters to have sex with them and stuff like that because they feel it would be against their will if they just went ahead and did it... at least, that's what I got from the explanations.

My question is to anyone who carries their real-world morality over into the dream world...

Has a dream character ever turned you down for sex?  I mean, have you ever asked someone and they were like, "No."  and you were like, "Damn... even in my dreams the chicks hate me."

I mean, I understand the intention and everything but aren't lucid dreams still, at least in some way, controlled by you.  I mean, I've heard of friends finding cookies in their pockets because they want there to be.  So, wouldn't it make sense that no matter how you ask the person or what you do, they'll say yes?

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by Gerg_
> *My question is to anyone who carries their real-world morality over into the dream world...
> *



My answer is an infatic *YES*  :Exclaim:  
When I am Lucid, I am completley concious. And in my dreams I have tried a number of times (not that that is good) to do immoral acts but my concious will not allow it.
I can have cookis appear in my pocket or I can fly to the heavens but I can't make my mind do somthing in a lucid dream that I do not feel is morally incorrect in my waking life. It sucks actually. At times I would like to release my anger or sexual phantasies.

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## nightowl

i didn't before, but now i do. Especially my treatment towards the other dream characters.

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by nightowl_
> *i didn't before, but now i do. Especially my treatment towards the other dream characters.*



Did you go into it with a different train of thought/ How did you achieve somthing your subconcious did not want?

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## nightowl

> _Originally posted by Howetzer+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Howetzer)</div>
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i meant that before i didnt have morals in my dreams, but now i do. Before i treated my dream characters like crap, fought them, and sometimes killed them. I would later regret it because something usually bad happened afterwards

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## Alex D

I'm usually alone (or with CLARiTY) in my dreams, so I can't really do anything bad. I wouldn't dream of doing anything bad to CLARiTY mind, she rocks, even though she doesn't really exist.

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## Mystical_Journey

I wrote somthing ages ago  about about dream morality in relation to killing a dream character... if you guys want to read it and tell me what you think?


"In dreams we can do whatever we want, we dont suffer any apparent consequence in the dream world but in my opinion it opens up new windows to this reality, what if you end up killing people in your dreams and really enjoy the act and then act on that violence in this reality? (Im sure its possible, the same subconscious feeling of enjoyment enters your waking life which u are unable to control.

I love the book Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, we all have it in us to commit our deepest fantasies. Killing one of your co-workers (lol) im not saying killing is unethical (thats for the individual to decide) Im sure there is a better way to deal with a situation though (tom and jerry are evil, teaching kids that violence is good-lol).

If you hate someone so much try to sort it out in this reality, ask them what their problem is etc or ask them in a dream. I remember one of my dreams in which I repeatedly slashed a women on the wrist with a knife who was trying to harm me, I didnt slash her to enjoy it I slashed her because I believed I was in danger and needed to protect myself. I didnt take pleasure in the act but thought to myself why the hell am I dreaming of this? 

In overcoming your own fears we must confront them but dealing in massacre in any respect only perpetuates fear by increasing it, fighting fire with fire. I hate to sound preachy but there are many alternatives to dealing with our frustrations on a subconscious level. We all have the feeling or emotion to kill someone but in order to fulfil that feeling we have to see it through in terms of action (like smashing a mirror in the subconscious it opens a door into a new feeling) which differentiates people who think about murder and people who go through with the action. Once the mirror is broken its hard to put it together again".

What are peoples opinion on killing a dream character?

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## Alex D

Killing a dream character is fine, as long as the dream character doesn't rock, I guess.

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## sensi

Ive always had the same type of morals in my lucid dreams as I do have in my real life. Its just the way I am. Killing people in real life doesnt interest me so why would it in a dream? I guess my morals are so ingrained im my personality and the more I lucid dream the firmer they are in that realm too. Maybe when I first started to lucid dream I would not have been so solid but I am now depending on the level of lucidity. Some dream situations have sometimes come up where I guess my morals have been tested but I always seem to stay true to myself now no matter how tempted I may be. I can only think of one dream where fighting was involved and most of the time I would just do dive rolls out of the way, shit like that. Ha ha this is funny, I don't get into lucid sex either and a while ago I had like 50 or so hot guys basically saying pick me. They were all working out with their tops off. I checked a few out but when I got to even taking it seriously I would flag. It just dose not interest me. I'd rather do things I can not do in real life like walk through walls, or fly or talk to dream characters and learn from what they have to say. 

Peace Sensi.

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## David Aames

I use my dreams as a chance to drop my morality, which I guess is a contradiction for having them in the first place if my true intent is to have other thoughts.  I just do what's natural kinda, that tends to defy morals in societies standards.  ::|:

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## Funki10is

A lucid dream is whatever you want it to be.  If you want to do ANYTHING its simple, DO IT!  Who cares if its immoral or bad.  It doesnt matter.  If you kill a dream character its not like you'll never see them again you can make anyone come back to life/ or die.  Its your world, your the King/Queen.  Do whatever you want!   ::lol::

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## Scruffy

In my dreams, my guiding ethic is to do nothing that distresses a dream character.  I have a fair amount of empathy for others, so seeing someone in distress bothers me.  I prefer to work with my surroundings, not against them.  It just flows better.

Since that is about the only thing that guides my actions in dreams, morally speaking, my morals are slightly relaxed from my waking morals.  For example, if there's a car sitting on the street, and I need to get somewhere, or need a car for some reason, I won't hesitate to drive off in it in my dreams, because nobody suffers unless I want it that way.  The car belongs to nobody.

In general, though, I find it most interesting to do things that dont even push my real-life morals.  Epic adventures, incredible vistas, or special powers are generally the most fun for me.  I have no reason to fight, save for practice for self defense, in which case I would always invite a DC to spar.

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## AirRick101

Morals have a basis in that whatever you don't like being done to you, you usually wouldn't want the same to happen to others.  (unless you are a psycho)  Our reality is a reflection of our minds, remember.

Condoning immoral behavior constantly isn't exactly the best idea.  The progressive effect of hurting others may make bad habits that make life harder to deal with.

Personally, I'm not one who likes to kill anything for the sake of empathy, perhaps.  But I like to dream about action packed crap like counter-strike rounds or starship troopers...

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## Seeker

Conciousness is conciousness.  It doesn't matter to me if it is waking conciouness or lucid dreaming conciousness, they are one and the same.  
My ethos forces me to behave in the same manner no matter which conciousness I am currently experiencing  ::sunflower:: 
I will harm none, period.

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by Seeker_
> *Conciousness is conciousness. *It doesn't matter to me if it is waking conciouness or lucid dreaming conciousness, they are one and the same. *
> My ethos forces me to behave in the same manner no matter which conciousness I am currently experiencing 
> I will harm none, period.*



Seeker. I think you & I have responded to these posts in a similar manner 100 times. So for the sake of a discussion, I will change things up.
Although our beliefs are morally sound. Lets say you condition your mind to say it is free to have a sexual encounter with another partner for the sake of fantasy & release. I think it is fare to say that fantasies are healhty,  when you are morally sound you know when to draw the line.
 So I guess it once again it boils down to asking yourself, are lucid dream acts immoral? If so then you could argue that any fantasy is too immoral for you are concious. But LDs are just far more enhanced.

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## Yogi Bare

I don't personally think morals come into it when dealing with any kind of fantasy or artistic expression. Specifically regarding lucids, I dont feel qualified to comment, although I do generally believe that what you push out is what you get back on many different levels. 

I think it could be entertaining and even enjoyable to have an occasional horror dream but I'm sure if you spent every dream slashing and terrorising, or being a victim of some kind of slasher type character, it would likely have some kind of negative effect on your psyche (sp?). 

As a side note, apparently the plot of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde came from a dream.

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## Seeker

OK, I promised myself I wouldn't jump into this discussion again, but Howetzer just had to poke me, didn't you?  ::sunflower:: 






> _Originally posted by Howetzer_
> *Good morning Seeker.
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> I had never associated this with day dreaming?.?
> *




Daydreams, a quote comes to mind:  "For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."  Some of you may recognize who said this.

That said, if your daydreams are filled with fantasies about sex and violence, what does that say about the condition of your heart?

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## TygrHawk

> _Originally posted by Seeker_
> *That said, if your daydreams are filled with fantasies about sex and violence, what does that say about the condition of your heart?*



I don't see why sex and violence should be linked together like this.  Doing violence to people is generally bad.  Having sex with people is generally good.  Again, just my opinion, but I don't understand the connection.

And don't say that you meant rape.  Rape is not sex.  Rape is violence.

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by TygrHawk+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TygrHawk)</div>
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I am quite sure we are talking under the ussumtion that you are involved with a partner. Therefore rendering it immoral. That is the connection.

Seeker That is a good point. But to no degree is there an emotional outlet in concern to this topic?

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## Seeker

> _Originally posted by TygrHawk_
> * ...And don't say that you meant rape. *Rape is not sex. *Rape is violence.*



I totally agree with you on that.  Concentual sex with a dream character is OK in my book as long as you are not breaking a vow you took to another human being.  I've discussed the sex thing with my wife.  She agreed that my intentionally having dream sex with a DC during a lucid dream would be the same as cheating as far as she was concerned.

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## TygrHawk

> _Originally posted by Seeker_
> *Concentual sex with a dream character is OK in my book as long as you are not breaking a vow you took to another human being. I've discussed the sex thing with my wife. She agreed that my intentionally having dream sex with a DC during a lucid dream would be the same as cheating as far as she was concerned.*



I never took a vow that had anything to do with what happens in my dreams.  At least, I'm of the opinion that "forsaking all others" only refers to real-life people.  I don't see sex with DCs as being the same at all -- they are imaginary, they don't react like real people would (at least in my dreams), and sometimes they spontaneously turn into werewolves.    ::o:  

Heck, I'm pretty sure that my wife would get upset if I told her about _non-lucid_ dreams that involved sex with others.  But what are you gonna do?  Does having dreams like that make me a cheater?  I certainly don't think so.

Having said all that, I can see your point of view as well.  I guess I just look for my dreams to be a place to escape the bonds of reality, whether they be physical, legal, or moral.

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## Funki10is

Dreams are Dreams.  We know we cant get hurt... so why would we care about doing immoral acts in the first place in them?  I think when you analyze everything too much this is what you get...have morals in dreams which is rediculous...sheesh

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## Anima

Its FAR better to release your tension in dreams.  If you do things immoral IRL, well there are consequences.

Your mind is your haven, enjoy it.

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## shel

arent dreams a reflection of your own subconscious and unconscious mind?  i know that being lucid is bringing it up to conscious level, but if you dont LD every night wouldnt your subconscious react, or rather act accordingly.  lets say that you commit an immoral act in a LD. if you dont feel the guilt of the action your subconscious wont register it as immoral, it would register it as amoral(neutral). hence no consequence.  but if you commit acts and feel that "its wrong, but since its a dream its okay", your subconscious will register it as a conscious immoral choice.  im curious to know if anyone has had any repercussions in non-LDs because some of these responses sound like "if i dont get caught, then i didnt do anything wrong".  

do what you like, but no man(or woman) can run from causality

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## Yogi Bare

Howetzer said 



> I am quite sure we are talking under the ussumtion that you are involved with a partner. Therefore rendering it immoral.
> [/b]



I discussed this idea with my girlfriend and she said that she had no problem with anything that happens in my dreams. I don't really intend to dream about anything I think anyone would consider immoral, but if I did and she doesn't mind, is it still immoral?

What about taking drugs in an LD? The reasons for not taking drugs IRL are obvious, and the implications of certain potential problems certainly brings in a moral argument, but what could be immoral about taking drugs in a dream?

Taking the general idea of the morality of dreams/fantasy/whatever further; some say it isn't ok to even think about an immoral act, even though to asses whether something is immoral or not you have to imagine a scenario and then think about your feelings towards it. 

By preventing people from thinking about the morality of something you force them to accept the status quo - religions have used this one for centuries to maintain power and control. Would anyone say that we are committing an immoral act by discussing this? So, where do you draw the line?

shel said



> do what you like, but no man(or woman) can run from causality[/b]



I cant disagree with that.

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by Funki10is+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Funki10is)</div>
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> 				Dreams are Dreams. *We know we cant get hurt... so why would we care about doing immoral acts in the first place in them? *I think when you analyze everything too much this is what you get...have morals in dreams which is rediculous...sheesh[/b]
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This obviously changes with each persons partner's perspective. I would venture to say your partner would be in the minority. I am not saying that is good or bad, but from a general perspective I feel most partners would feel somewhat betrayed had they known you activly had a sexual relationship with a dream character other than them.

Sometimes I wonder if my LDs are like others?! We are talking concious correct. Meaning you are the one activly in control of your actions??

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## Yogi Bare

Howetzer Said




> This obviously changes with each persons partner's perspective. I would venture to say your partner would be in the minority. I am not saying that is good or bad, but from a general perspective I feel most partners would feel somewhat betrayed had they known you activly had a sexual relationship with a dream character other than them. [/b]



It's difficult to say what would be a more common perspective, I'm sure there are plenty of people that would subscribe to both views and that's fair enough, but that's not what I am saying. From your post I took it to mean that you feel some dream actions are simply immoral, no ifs or buts, which is what I'm trying to address really. 

It might be insensitive towards someones feelings in some instances, which could well make it immoral from a respect point of view in those instances, but that doesn't make the act itself implicitly immoral. What would you say about low level lucids, where you are aware you are dreaming and are in control but don't remember all the details of waking life?

Howetzer Said



> Sometimes I wonder if my LDs are like others?! We are talking concious correct. Meaning you are the one activly in control of your actions??[/b]



lol, I've not got enough LD experience to talk anything other than hypothetically, but yes that is what I was talking about. That said, I've found myself doing some pretty crazy things in dreams that seemed completely normal and justified at the time, so I would have to take the same stance on the whole issue. 

What someone does in their dreams may have mental or spiritual implications and it may reflect problems with their outlook on life, but I can't see that any kind of fantasy can be implicitly linked with any code of ethics.

BTW - How do I get 'Howetzer Said' to appear above the quote box?

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by Yogi Bare_
> *What someone does in their dreams may have mental or spiritual implications and it may reflect problems with their outlook on life, but I can't see that any kind of fantasy can be implicitly linked with any code of ethics.*



I guess this would be hard to prove. But because it is a concious act it is like acting out a fantasy. I am beginning to agree with the outlet idea and that being benificial. I guess it is just how far you take it. And that too will change with each persons ideas of morals.
But I definatly get where you are coming from.

Act out a fantasy (consciously act out a phantasy in real life - immoral. 

Kind of one in the same.

[quote]

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## Funki10is

Why would anyone care about killing dream characters I see it as a pointless conversation...its a dream!  I wouldnt worry about killing people!  :Eek:

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## sensi

Just a question - What if that dream character is actually part of yourself, meaning a part of your own personality, then you would be beating up/killing yourself could that not be bad in some way. I know if i beat myself up psychologically in real life it has negative effects. Or what if when you dream you go to a different realm, then that poses even more question......

Peace Sensi.

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by sensi_
> *Just a question - What if that dream character is actually part of yourself, meaning a part of your own personality, then you would be beating up/killing yourself could that not be bad in some way. I know if i beat myself up psychologically in real life it has negative effects. Or what if when you dream you go to a different realm, then that poses even more question......
> Peace Sensi.*







> I know if i beat myself up psychologically in real life it has negative effects.[/b]



It would seem that if you practiced immoral acts often enough it could impact your waking life. Because like you pointed out it works the otherway around.
Now if you are talking a different realm or an astral plain then we are opening up a whole new can of worms.
Good points Sensi

 Peace Howetzer 

 ::D:

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## jediflight

I'm going to go on a limb here and take a firm stance on the subject of dream morality.  I have never ever in my life heard of such a notion.  Now if U know yourself and feel guilty about something that you purposely do in your dreams, then simply don't do it.  If doing something in your dreams is going to maybe contribute to making it easier for you to do something you believe is immoral in real life, again, don't do it.  Otherwise I think... well does anyone really care what I think.  Dream on dream on dream on and remember it is just a dream.

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## sensi

Hey Howetzer,

I could go quite deep on both of the scenarios but don't have time right now but....Whats your thoughts on the whole other realm thing?

Great Day in NZ today i was hanging for a game of b ball, can't wait for a game, shame you can't play via the computer, haha.

Peace Sensi.   :smiley:

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## Mystical_Journey

Well consider a situation, a person is really pissing you off in your waking reality, their duty is to make fun of you, to laugh at you, to make comments about you for no reason at all. Wouldnt you like to vent your fustrations through dreams? because acting in reality, only makes things worse, acting in dreams, you can confront that person without fear or without the consequences of reality.

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by sensi_
> *Hey Howetzer,
> 
> I could go quite deep on both of the scenarios but don't have time right now but....Whats your thoughts on the whole other realm thing?
> 
> Great Day in NZ today i was hanging for a game of b ball, can't wait for a game, shame you can't play via the computer, haha.
> 
> Peace Sensi. **



All we do is go round & round on these topics. Now to add another realm.  ::shock::  

Maybe we should begin a new thread - Morals on a differant plain of existence.

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## sensi

"Morals on a differant plain of existence", na, I think i'll save myself the stress, ha ha.   :wink2:  

Peace Sensi.

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## Daytime

> you can confront that person without fear or without the consequences of reality.[/b]



But what if it was a shared dream. Oh that would be so cool. You would have the lucid dreaming skills to really teach them a lesson. Hey, you can turn the sky into fire in the dream, all they can do is "duh... oo look at that pretty purple cat. Hmmm. lol. Imagine if this was a dream..."

So you could like make a trial and then summon them there, and put them on trial, and then we they wake up and goto kick your ass, you just tell them that you don't know what they are talking about and your just dreaming it (witch of course they were).

hahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by sensi_
> *\"Morals on a differant plain of existence\", na, I think i'll save myself the stress, ha ha.   
> 
> Peace Sensi.*



I'am with you on this one sensi   :wink2:  

However, as Guidosoft posted above. _Dreamsharing & Morals_  :Question:   ::idea::  
I would like to see the argument about that one!!!!

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## jediflight

O.K, just one more thing before I go out and completely away from this thread.  I do think that when we take control of are dreams we have a great oppurtunity here.  Now if someone were to do something in their dream that made them feal guilty or bad in anyway, common sense would say just don't do it again.  Think about this folks.  All you LDers out there have a chance to do all the things in your dreams that can make you feal really good about yourself.  Do those things and you will most likely wake up fealling great.  Peace out and yeh adios.

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## sensi

Hey Howetzer, 

Yeah I too think that dream sharing and morals is a good topic. I've thought about that one in regards to lucid sex and if I talked about it with the person in waking life then had a shared dream then I would have no problem with having lucid sex at all. My problem with dream sex is the possibility of it being with other unconscious dreamers. Yes I know we said not to bring up the other realm thing but, oopps, I just did   :smiley:  . Do I think the other realm thing is real....well who knows, it can not be proven at this stage so I am just careful. Thats all Ill say about the other realm thing, like I said too much stress and nothing can be proven anyway.....  :smiley:  

As for dream sharing though I would have just as strong morals as I do anyway. I have not had a shared dream so I do not know what that would feel like, it would pretty cool I would expect.

Hey Jediflight - I hear you on that one, I do agree and thats what I try. I've only had one dream where violence was involved, it was just a recent dream too, and it freaked me, i am not a violent person at all. I was bloody good at fighting tho. So I do understand if people feel in real life that they can not express themselves freely for what ever reason so they choose to do it in their dreams. Human nature sometimes has a side that wants to push things and have different experiences that maybe immoral or illegal in real life. If people do what they like and it dose not have a negative effect on their subconscious or conscious then, sweet, they can do what they want. I am however not one of those people.

Dose it make me a better person, No, just different.

Peace Sensi.

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## Gigaah

I thought about this extensivly. In free dreaming I've often been in situations where I was about ready to get it on but after I got married I always stop short because even while free dreaming I know its wrong without being lucid.

BUT as I weight it I feel that lucid sex isn't any worse than flogging the dolphin while looking a a smut magazine or watching a porn or just haveing some fantasy. If your morality says this is wrong then your answer is right there IMO.

In my experience its not too hard to get most all guys to fess up to viewing porn at least here and there..even if not that its a pretty well now fact that nearly "Everbodys doing it". According to the discovery channel 89% of women and 95% of men masturbate(or have masturbated) and most contiune through out their adulthood(married).

So based on what I've gathered for me its a viable outlet for sexual fantasy. I do think that if it became compuslive or if you take it as far as having a specific  reoccuring "dream mistress" then things get a back into the grey area for me again as I've not really sorted this out.

I'll call it the "Hands free" approach to masturbation and sexual fantasy.

I too will seperate the sex and the violence.

As far as killing people I've never had the urge to kill people. On occasion I've been in fights and beat someone up decently, I don't see a big problem with beating someone up..and outlet for such agression.
I'm pretty sure if I killed someone in a dream I'd feel bad. For me its a no. Morally. I think there is too much grey area..why are you killing the person..etc and I'm not ready to chime in on the subject because I think its much more comlicated and I've not really examined it at length. I think it may come down to a lot of..if this..if that...sure...if the other thing and that one thing..no

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by Gigaah_
> *BUT as I weight it I feel that lucid sex isn't any worse than flogging the dolphin while looking a a smut magazine or watching a porn or just haveing some fantasy. If your morality says this is wrong then your answer is right there IMO.
> *



Good point.
Not very often is one questioned about their daydreaming practices.
My freinds thoughts about this topic;
\"Morally speaking, Why would acting out somthing in a LD be any worse than day dreaming about it?\" All of us day dream from time to time.




> _Originally posted by Gigaah_
> *So based on what I've gathered for me its a viable outlet for sexual fantasy. I do think that if it became compuslive or if you take it as far as having a specific reoccuring \"dream mistress\" then things get a back into the grey area for me again as I've not really sorted this out. 
> *



It is all on a personal basis where one draws the line & what is moral and what is not. Therefore you can go around & around. But I think your point about it becoming compulsive is important. That is probably the case for when people go _postal_. In their head they have done, whatever it is they are obsessing about, over and over again.





> _Originally posted by sensi_
> *Hey Howetzer, 
> 
> Yeah I too think that dream sharing and morals is a good topic. I've thought about that one in regards to lucid sex and if I talked about it with the person in waking life then had a shared dream then I would have no problem with having lucid sex at all. My problem with dream sex is the possibility of it being with other unconscious dreamers. Yes I know we said not to bring up the other realm thing but, oopps, I just did   . Do I think the other realm thing is real....well who knows, it can not be proven at this stage so I am just careful. Thats all Ill say about the other realm thing, like I said too much stress and nothing can be proven anyway.....  
> 
> As for dream sharing though I would have just as strong morals as I do anyway. I have not had a shared dream so I do not know what that would feel like, it would pretty cool I would expect.
> 
> Peace Sensi.*



I alway looked at dream sharing as just that. Sharing. meaning that the other person is willingly active in in the same acts as you. I never thought of it from a standpoint of the other person being unconciously involved.
*That is weird to even think about.* Would they even know it anyway then?
It is getting to sound like nightmare on elmstreet.   ::shock::

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## sensi

Sorry I should have defined it more clearly, yes if it is consensual like a shared dream then yes I do not have a problem. If it is just a lucid dream then I worry that if it was in a different realm with other dreamers that are not lucid/not conscious then I worry that I could take advantage of them. This only being the case if the other realm thing exists or if other dreamers are actually involved in your dreams, it not being just a construct of your own mind. Like I said nothing can be proven anyway so it dose not matter.

I'm over it.

Peace Sensi.    :smiley:

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