# Lucid Dreaming > General Lucid Discussion >  >  if LDing is real then what about. . .

## Needcatscan

So while reading another person's thread, I found he said something that I have been thinking about for a while.  If it wasn't for the fact that I've had LDs before learning about them and what they were, I would have put it up there with all the other things that were not real, IE telekinesis, ghosts, OOBEs, psychics, bigfoot, and so on.  My main reasons for not believing in these things is that IF they were in fact real, then wouldn't there be a lot of science behind it and scientists researching it?  I mean really, if a person really could read another's mind or if someone really could move objects by will alone, wouldn't that be some big news?  Like Phenomenon with John Travolta, he really could do this and there was all kinds of scientists wanting his brain.  But unlike Phenomenon, there is no credible evidence for any of these things.  

That's where LDing comes in:  "waking up in your dream?   That's called being awake!" would have been something close to a typical response when telling someone about LDing.  How can we be AWAKE while ASLEEP?  It's a contradiction, yet most of you who are reading this can accomplish just that, as well as myself (kind of makes you feel like a superhero doesn't it?).  YET, there is very little research on it, just LaBerge and his team of whatever-nauts, which I'm sure have little standing in the world of scientists.   You tell people about your LDs and they look at you like you told them you were abducted by aliens and anal-probed.

Point being, if Lucid dreaming is really possible, then what about all the other sketchy things that have little to no research or scientific backing?  I've seen youtube videos of people supposedly moving objects with their minds, we've all probably seen bigfoot videos, and hell, there are a crap load of psychics who claim they can tell the future.  

I've always been a straight up realist, if I can't touch it or experience it then it's BS, so LDing has really got me rethinking things (except religion, I will eternally be agnostic).

What do you guys think?

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## Chaos Theory

About Bigfoot? They disproved it.
Telekinesis? I'm guessing  your talking about the video on youtube about the " Psiwheel " To tell you the truth, I don't even think the Psi-wheel works half the time. Psychic ability from mind reading to Psi-control HAS been indeed tested. It was big news, back then. Ever heard of Uri Gellar? Think of it this way: Paris hilton going to prison is huge " Depressing " news. 

Do more Research on Psychic development, Like Telekinesis and mind reading and what not. Eventually I bet you will find what your looking for.

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## Marvo

Lucid-dreaming is not to be awake when you sleep, but to be aware when you dream.

The difference? I can say, that I'm always aware when I dream, I'm in complete control of my dream-body, I just rarely realise that I'm in a dream. Point being, if you can think you are awake in a dream (which we do most of them time), then can't you also think that you're dreaming?

Unlike stuff like telekenisis and all that other stuff, the science and explenations behind lucid dreaming makes perfect sense.

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## naikou

Yes, it's quite fascinating, isn't it? If the general public doesn't know about Lucid Dreaming, what other phenomena could they be missing out on?

Like you, I consider myself a realist. Like you, I would have never accepted Lucid Dreaming if I had not personally experienced it. However, learning about Lucid Dreaming has increased my respect for those "fringe groups" who believe in ESP, ghosts, aliens, etc. By no account do I believe them, and I still think that at least 90&#37; of them are completely nonsensical (Murphy's Law), but I don't immediately reject far out views, as I would have before learning about Lucid Dreaming.

Then again, perhaps it's a true sign of intellectual maturity to be able to know that supernatural things aren't real, and still wish that they were. With that mindset, you eventually get rewarded with something as interesting as Lucid Dreaming.

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## Needcatscan

Nice reply Naikou.  I agree that I also don't look at other groups as being completely crazy anymore (just regular crazy) and that is the conclusion that I have mostly come to with doing the little bit of research I've done on other phenomenas.  So I agree that LDing is the gem among the bullshit  :smiley: 

And I KNOW bigfoot isn't real, thanks, it was an example to press a point

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## 0bs3n3

Great post needcatscan. In fact before I even had my first LD (they didn't come naturally to me) I even thought that maybe it was a huge elaborate hoax.

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## Needcatscan

Sadly I think there are other people that feel that way that frequent this board and are still yet to have an LD, I know that's what I would be thinking, which if course shoots the confidence which is a huge part of obtaining lucidity.  

I remember watching those vids of people moving psi wheels and so I tried it out myself and I just thought, "This is really f***ing stupid, all these people are just lying."  That was the main motivation for the post:  since we're not full of crap, are they not either?

Congrats on your first lucid, hope it was all we've cracked it up to be  :smiley:

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## Chaos Theory

> Sadly I think there are other people that feel that way that frequent this board and are still yet to have an LD, I know that's what I would be thinking, which if course shoots the confidence which is a huge part of obtaining lucidity. 
> 
> I remember watching those vids of people moving psi wheels and so I tried it out myself and I just thought, "This is really f***ing stupid, all these people are just lying." That was the main motivation for the post: since we're not full of crap, are they not either?
> 
> Congrats on your first lucid, hope it was all we've cracked it up to be



That's something I can agree with is the Psi-wheel. I used to know quite alot of people that thought the psi-wheel could help them in Telekinesis. 
By the way, have you looked up the expression " Chi " Yet perhaps? Just curious.

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## Leumas13

I agree to a point, i have certainly felt the difficulty of trying to explain lucid dreaming to others while not sounding like a complete idiot. 

but on the contrary, there has been research into this. we understand sleep, the stages of it why and what happens how it affects brain functions.  we have a greater understanding of the topic of sleep itself than we do say, a 6th sense.  lucid dreaming has been tested by more than just  LaBerge.  in fact studies on false awakenings and sleep paralysis had been examined even before LaBerge. 

I think that one of the main aspects of Lucidity that make it more of a scientific fact rather than a psychic type phenomenon is that it presents testability and repeatability.  LaBerge is well known for what i mean by "tests".  As for repeatability, lucidity is something that can be repeated by anyone, with smiler results. sure, everyone reaches it in different ways, but we all experience similer feelings while doing things such as WILDing, HI and the general experience of LDing.  telekinesis, telepathy and such are described differently form person to person, with great amounts of variation.  

So yea...thats my take on the subject  :wink2:

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## blahaha

Comparing lucid dreaming to stuff like telekinesis is like comparing apples to oranges. Dreaming is just an illusion created by your mind... that makes a lot more sense than something like telekinesis or precognition. I didn't believe in TK before and I still don't. Until I can do it or they can show me some proof I'll stay that way.

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## ninja9578

Unlike some of those other things that you mentioned, lucid dreaming actually does have some research and scientific backing behind it.  Lucid dreaming is legitimately accepted among psychologists and is even used in therapy.  I had a professor who told me so.  She's a Ph.D (or M.D, which is a psychologist?)

An unlike some other things like telekinesis and ESP, it isn't all that difficult to imagine LDing.  The dream is within your own mind and you mind creates awareness.  Why couldn't they cross?

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## naikou

I think you guys are missing the point. Sure, there's scientific evidence _now_, but what about 30 years ago?

If you guys had lived back then, you wouldn't have accepted lucid dreaming because the scientific community said it was impossible and because there was no sold proof. And you would have missed out on something wonderful. So would have I.

So, the question Needcatscan is proposing is: Could we be missing out on other equally wonderful things because of prejudices in the scientific community and society as a whole?

At least, that's my take on it.

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## Leumas13

well naikou, that is a valid point...but

during those times, "science" isn't always nessisarally scientific.  the sun orbited the earth..but we didn't have any proof.  atoms were indivisible because that theory had been around for as long as people could remember. today's scientific community is a more experiment driven community than it was before.

so although i understand your point, we are more analytical now. it's not so much prejudice from the scientific community because it doesn't fit in with everything else, so much as is that testing has been done and found little to no evidence.

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## Blµb

Hmm, I never thought about LDing the way I thought about telekinesis etc....
But hey, maybe somewhere out there, there's a forum about telekinesis, with a thread similar to this one?  :smiley: 





> I didn't believe in TK before and I still don't. Until I can do it or they can show me some proof I'll stay that way.



Today... it's easy to set those things up, so, what would a proof look like for you?
You can only prove it to individuals by coming into their houses moving things around...
But, really, who'd care about it THAT much?

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## Marvo

> I think you guys are missing the point. Sure, there's scientific evidence _now_, but what about 30 years ago?
> 
> If you guys had lived back then, you wouldn't have accepted lucid dreaming because the scientific community said it was impossible and because there was no sold proof. And you would have missed out on something wonderful. So would have I.
> 
> So, the question Needcatscan is proposing is: Could we be missing out on other equally wonderful things because of prejudices in the scientific community and society as a whole?
> 
> At least, that's my take on it.



Incorrect.

I've had several spontanious lucid dreams throughout my life, and they came before I was even aware of lucid dreaming. That's more than enough proof to me.

Lucid dreaming makes perfect sense to me, however, telekenisis and all powerfull devine beings do not.

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## Hazel

> Incorrect.
> 
> I've had several spontanious lucid dreams throughout my life, and they came before I was even aware of lucid dreaming. That's more than enough proof to me.
> 
> Lucid dreaming makes perfect sense to me, however, telekenisis and all powerfull devine beings do not.



Same here. I've had lucid dreams before I even knew what they were, so I would have accepted it.

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## naikou

> during those times, "science" isn't always nessisarally scientific.  the sun orbited the earth..but we didn't have any proof.  atoms were indivisible because that theory had been around for as long as people could remember. today's scientific community is a more experiment driven community than it was before.



I'm talking about the 1960's and 70's. Not only had we discovered that the earth orbited the sun, but we had traveled to the moon. Not only did we know that atoms were divisible, but we had created nuclear weapons. And yet, Lucid Dreaming was still rejected.

@ Marvo and weelilhazel: Yeah, I know, I mentioned that in my first post. But obviously, there are millions/billions of people who have never experienced LD'ing (or don't remember doing so), and because of that they refuse to believe in Lucid Dreaming, even _with_ concrete scientific evidence. 

So yeah, people like us are the lucky ones, in that regard. But it's possible that we have not experienced some other phenomena, and I think it would be unwise to completely reject all phenomena that we haven't experienced. I'm not saying that I believe in ESP, aliens, time travelers, and so forth; I'm just suggesting that there could be things science has passed by - like lucid dreaming was - and is waiting to be discovered.

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## pippo90

I dont understand what you mean by NOT real??? How is lucid dreaming NOT real if there are thousands of people doing it? Of course its all in your mind but thats exactly what it is. We artn saying its actually happning in real life (i dont think at least) so I guess you could say its not real in the physical sense. But it is REAL since you have to train your body.

How does this sound if someone were to come up and tell you it.

"O ya BOB I just had a really nice lucid dream last night! But Gooly g wiz those lucid dreams arnt real. But I just had one, let me tell you it was great. But not real of course"

But ya, maybe im just confused on what you mean?

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## Marvo

> Many words...



I don't think lucid dreaming ever was rejected. Too few just knew about it. None of my friends, or people I've been talking to have rejected it, or said that I'm making up all the stuff. They just don't find it interesting, since "it's just dreams".

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## Needcatscan

> I don't think lucid dreaming ever was rejected. Too few just knew about it. None of my friends, or people I've been talking to have rejected it, or said that I'm making up all the stuff. They just don't find it interesting, since "it's just dreams".



If they only knew. . .

I tried telling one of my coworkers yesterday. . .
"Have you ever woken up in a dream before?  Become completely aware that you were dreaming and it feeling almost like reality?"
Lee: "Oh yeah!  Like a couple months ago I dreamed Connie (our boss) was really mad at me and I thought it was so real that I asked her if she was upset with me when I came into work"
That's where I just shook my head and gave up. 


And I agree with scientists knowing a lot about sleep and the REM stage and so on, so I guess LDing isn't quite on the same level as the other paranormal things.  
I still wish I could move things with my mind though.

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## Chaos Theory

> I still wish I could move things with my mind though.



There is  a site that lists alot of useful techniques, just not that Damn Psi-wheel. These guys have been open since 2000. 
http://psipog.net/home.html

They also have a media section. Psychokinesis Varies on the person though, it's like Lucid dreaming. Some people can do it the first time they try, others it takes a while.  ::D:

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## Needcatscan

I've been there, do you really think they are for real though?
Wouldn't it be some kind of breakthrough to actually be able to move things with your mind?  That's what has me unbelieving. 

Penn & Teller have a show called Bullsh!t where they did a whole show on this stuff and there is a guy who will pay the first person to show that they can do telekinesis a million bucks.  So far no takers.

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## horsebucket

> My main reasons for not believing in these things is that IF they were in fact real, then wouldn't there be a lot of science behind it and scientists researching it?



Thats always the first thing that comes to mind but what if science isn't ready to get into non locality because it will turn half of modern science upside down. Just like the physicists back in the day couldn't accept the world was round because they would have had to change all their scientific theories.

Maybe the people who can do these tricks take advantage of the fact that the worlds ignorant and uses it to their advantage. For example lets nobody believed that people could hack into computers because the computer manufacturers said it was impossible. 

If you were a hacker would you go around telling people that you were able to do it or would you take advantage of peoples ignorant and keep on hacking without having to worry about being detected because most people don't even believe it's possible?

I think alot of this psychic shit really is happening all the time only it's way too subtle for the average person to notice. I think hackings a good example because you could have somebody hacking your computer your whole life and never realize until you learn about hacking and computer security yourself. Real hackers wont leave any trace and do their best to go unnoticed. Of course theres the people just doing it for the fun and fuck around with your computer so you will notice. If psychic abilities were real you'd think thered be some people fucking around with them for the fun too.

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## naikou

Marvo... either you have some really open minded people where you live, or you're really good at communicating. The few people I've attempted to tell about lucid dreaming have thought I was totally insane.

Or maybe it's just that Europe > U.S.?

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## mini0991

To be honest, I never really saw what was so unbelievable about lucid dreaming. I just did it and it worked.

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## magicdood

Why is it so hard to believe that a large community like psipog might have been for real. They had what, over 2000 members. Many of which claimed to be able to do telekinesis. Me being one of them. It's no different from lucid dreaming...it's just another ability. And I'll be damned if you're going to tell me that I didn't slide that can, and roll that straw and other things, hehe.  ::D:

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## Marvo

> Marvo... either you have some really open minded people where you live, or you're really good at communicating. The few people I've attempted to tell about lucid dreaming have thought I was totally insane.
> 
> Or maybe it's just that Europe > U.S.?



It might have something to do, with my friends knowing, that I have a lot of knowledge. I wouldn't start cooking up false stuff, they know that :p

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## The Wig

Lucid dreaming is based on science and confirmed by it. It's all in your head. I never experienced lucid dreaming before I read about it, and I believed it in right away because it has a sound basis. Some big monster running through the mountains that manages to show up every few years yet no one has ever really caught or studied? Yeah right.

You can read my mind? No. You can move objects with your mind? No. Why do I not believe in these because I've learned of LDing? Because it has no basis in science and can never have a basis in science because it violates laws that govern ourselves. 

Long story short, I'm not going to believe in something that makes no sense. LD did make sense. Telekinesis? Not so much.

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## The Wig

> Why is it so hard to believe that a large community like psipog might have been for real. They had what, over 2000 members. Many of which claimed to be able to do telekinesis. Me being one of them. It's no different from lucid dreaming...it's just another ability. And I'll be damned if you're going to tell me that I didn't slide that can, and roll that straw and other things, hehe.



If you can move things around with your mind, you're a candidate for one million dollars! Courtesy of James Randi! Why not go accept your prize? Surely this is a remarkable ability!

I'm calling you a liar in case you didn't pick up on it.

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## 27

Lucid Dreaming has been proven. There's not even a debate when it comes to wether or not lucid dreaming exists. Everyone dreams every night. What is so strange about being able to controle it? We learned about Lucid Dreaming in my psychology class last year, something we'd never do with the psychic stuff you mentioned. There is nothing para-normal about Lucid Dreaming. It is accepted by science.

The Wig, Randi will never part with his million dollars. The whole thing is made so that you can never really prove anything and even if you do the prize money is in bonds and potentialy worthless.

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## JCDenton

Think about it this way. Many things that couldn't be understood in the past, have been proven through through science. The old hag syndrome associated with SP was thought to be caused by demons pressing down on your chest. I could give many other examples. But the point is: Species evolve, understanding evolves, science evolves.

The only specific thing I can comment on is OBE\Astral Projection. The mystical view on this is that your mind\soul can leave your body and reach a higher dimension or travel freely through our everyday world. Skeptics say that you feel like that, but it doesn't really happen - it's sort of like a more realistic dream-like world. THROUGH SCIENCE: There have been researches about this and claims that people closed in a room could leave their bodies and reach another room in which a computer would generate a random image. Later those people would describe what they saw and, while in some cases the description only matched a portion of reality, some could accurately say what they saw and the results would match... I don't know if these studies are real. I only read about this on wikipedia and some public domain websites. Sometime from now I may try some of the techniques to have an OBE and give it a look. And even if it's just a dream-like experience most claim that it's very cool  ::D: . I also had thought of joining the IAC (International Academy of Conscientology) where one takes classes about the states of the mind and are taught inductory techniques.
http://www.iacworld.org/

This may seem awkward to those having a first look into it but since I began to enter the world of dreams and having a look at the states of conscience I achieved a more open-minded state. Although I don't believe in god, now I always make a statement like "I don't believe in god BUT HE MAY EXIST" when talking about these matters. So, since I understand the possibility of something existing even if I don't believe in it, I've been more open minded to certain things. It's a cool state of mind. You seem to think things clearer...

great topic btw, although it's not directly related to lucid dreaming  :wink2:

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## Chaos Theory

> If you can move things around with your mind, you're a candidate for one million dollars! Courtesy of James Randi! Why not go accept your prize? Surely this is a remarkable ability!
> 
> I'm calling you a liar in case you didn't pick up on it.



That James Randi challenge has some flaws in it. I wish I still had that site that proved it though. 

Science has somewhat studied Psionic abilities. Come to think of it they created an entire LIST of abilities that some people in the Paranormal group haven't even heard of. 

And yes Jc, the Studies do exist. They had a program on it once on I think it was the Discovery channel or Discover Science Channel.

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## JCDenton

> Lucid dreaming is based on science and confirmed by it. It's all in your head. I never experienced lucid dreaming before I read about it, and I believed it in right away because it has a sound basis. Some big monster running through the mountains that manages to show up every few years yet no one has ever really caught or studied? Yeah right.
> 
> You can read my mind? No. You can move objects with your mind? No. Why do I not believe in these because I've learned of LDing? Because it has no basis in science and can never have a basis in science because it violates laws that govern ourselves. 
> 
> Long story short, I'm not going to believe in something that makes no sense. LD did make sense. Telekinesis? Not so much.



Yes... although true laws can't be broken, many laws that were believed to be true in the past were proved wrong... most proven to be pathetic comparing to our modern knowledge. 
It is believe that a different energy from the physical one flows through our body. Upon breaking the doors that keeps it locked inside, they can be manifested physically. Remember that through our lives we only use 15% off our true capacities. I'm not saying that I believe in this, I'm just saying that it's possibly true.
Also if everything follows (known physical) laws then it's impossible for god to exist. Again, I myself don't believe in god (I don't feel like I have reasons to believe) but acknowledge that it is possible for him to exist.

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## Mocari

> Thats always the first thing that comes to mind but what if science isn't ready to get into non locality because it will turn half of modern science upside down. Just like the physicists back in the day couldn't accept the world was round because they would have had to change all their scientific theories.
> 
> Maybe the people who can do these tricks take advantage of the fact that the worlds ignorant and uses it to their advantage. For example lets nobody believed that people could hack into computers because the computer manufacturers said it was impossible. 
> 
> If you were a hacker would you go around telling people that you were able to do it or would you take advantage of peoples ignorant and keep on hacking without having to worry about being detected because most people don't even believe it's possible?
> 
> I think alot of this psychic shit really is happening all the time only it's way too subtle for the average person to notice. I think hackings a good example because you could have somebody hacking your computer your whole life and never realize until you learn about hacking and computer security yourself. Real hackers wont leave any trace and do their best to go unnoticed. Of course theres the people just doing it for the fun and fuck around with your computer so you will notice. If psychic abilities were real you'd think thered be some people fucking around with them for the fun too.



That is one explanation. Though i like to stick a bit closer to insanity. I think a movie version of Alice in Wonderland depicted our nature nicely.
It went like this:

The jack of hearts was accused of stealing a tart and was facing trial. 
At some point during the trial Alice gets called forth as a witness. She points out that all the tarts are still there, on a shiny plate right under their noses. 
There couldn't have been any theft to begin with. 
The crowd is shocked at her response, and the white rabbit asks her: "Alice, don't You care about what they think?"...
And she says: "No... I don't... Not if i'm right."...

I believe people only see what they know to be true. If anything doesn't live up to that image they simply don't see it. 
But the same thing would go for You and me. Perhaps those scientists never found evidence of some wonderful phenomenon simply because You don't believe they did. 
But that doesn't mean it isn't there.

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## The Wig

> The Wig, Randi will never part with his million dollars. The whole thing is made so that you can never really prove anything and even if you do the prize money is in bonds and potentialy worthless.



That's not true, both parties have to agree on the terms beforehand. It's very clear. All you have to do is demonstrate psychic ability. You should be able to do that in an empty room with none of your "people" with you. How hard is that if you can _truly_ move things with your mind? Not hard at all. That thing about "stress" and whatnot is bullshit. If you can do it, you can at least show signs you're doing it, right?

There's a reason people claim to have psychic power and it turns out to be false, or all these underground forum people (like the previous guy I quoted) never "release" their psychic power. The reason is: because they can't do it. It's impossible. And if you say so fool hardy that it is not impossible, provide evidence because saying "I can do it!" is worthless.

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## magicdood

Randi's Challenge is very flawed. http://psipog.net/art-beware-pseudo-skepticism.html

I don't mind you not believing. Science has held back the human race for a long time. If you could open your mind for a second, you would realize it.

The reason I don't care? I've done telekinesis. So in my mind, it is even crazier to hear someone tell me I'm lying. In fact, it's quite funny! I laugh, because I've done it, yet you tell me that it's not real!

But that's fine...it's your choice to believe what you want.  However, I think that you call me a liar is just stupid. 

And what do you know about stress inhibit your ability to do telekinesis as you have never done it?! For your info, you most likely have to have 100&#37; of your mind clear to perform PK, and having other people like that in the room can make you nervous and cloud your mind. so yes, it does have an affect.
Brandon

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## The Wig

> Randi's Challenge is very flawed. http://psipog.net/art-beware-pseudo-skepticism.html
> 
> I don't mind you not believing. Science has held back the human race for a long time. If you could open your mind for a second, you would realize it.
> 
> The reason I don't care? I've done telekinesis. So in my mind, it is even crazier to hear someone tell me I'm lying. In fact, it's quite funny! I laugh, because I've done it, yet you tell me that it's not real!
> 
> But that's fine...it's your choice to believe what you want.  However, I think that you call me a liar is just stupid. 
> 
> And what do you know about stress inhibit your ability to do telekinesis as you have never done it?! For your info, you most likely have to have 100% of your mind clear to perform PK, and having other people like that in the room can make you nervous and cloud your mind. so yes, it does have an affect.
> Brandon



You just linked me to a source that is biased saying why James Randi's challenge is flawed. You'd need to link me to a neutral party for this to even register in my mind as evidence of it being flawed. Nevertheless, I went ahead and gave you the benefit of the doubt and went ahead and read your link. 

All it debated was that the money isn't immediately available as one million dollars. But it can be immediately transferred into cash. Either way, if someone were to win, they'd stand to make a substantial amount of cash. 

Now, if you're so upset with Randi, why not go to another person who can substantiate your claims? Surely if you have this wonderful power it'd be useful for good, right? It could be studied and bring a whole new age to civilization? Right?

Science has done nothing but advance the human race. I'm not sure how you'd enjoy all the comforts you now enjoy in this age without science, but perhaps it has to do with your telekinesis? If you want to be taken seriously, post some evidence of your powers. Read _my_ mind. Do something. 

As for it taking 100% of your mind power to perform "psi" or whatever it is, I don't believe it for a second. The brain is incredibly powerful and via it's memory can be trained to perform even the most difficult tasks at an incredible speed. There's a reason Uri Geller never stood up to scrutiny - he wasn't a real psychic. And for that matter, no one who ever claimed they were, was. 

I know this is a small forum on a very specialized subject, but you sitting around lying to people here isn't cool at all. For all I know you could be sitting around laughing at the people who DO believe you, or maybe you really think you have read someone's mind (and they were messing with you). Either way, you're either incredibly mistaken or a bad liar.

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## magicdood

Hehe, I'm loving this!

First off, I see where you are coming about the article on psipog, fair enough.

However, there have been numerous people who could do telekinesis that have tried to setup a meeting with Randi and been denied.

In fact, http://psistudies.net/forums/index.php?topic=541.0

Anyways, not everyone here is in this for the money. I am on the path of self-realization and Enlightenment, and money to me, means very little. I can't say that about everyone, but that takes a way me at least.

Furthermore, I don't need you calling me a liar. I mean, this argument is going to get nowhere. I've done Pk in real life, you are very close minded...and that's it. 

How can you call me a liar when you have never seen me perform Pk. How? 

Brandon

Oh and a quick addition about brain power and such. An empty mind does help in telekinesis. You've never tried so why are you arguing that?

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## Needcatscan

Okay, I'm extremely skeptical about PK but I certainly don't think it's impossible (hence me starting this thread).  And I found it very interesting how in P&N Bullsh!t that they show a quick clip of the famous Russian woman (Nina Kulagina) back years and years ago who had hundreds of controlled tests done on film and she proved she could move things with her mind over and over again, and yet Penn and Teller didn't talk about her AT ALL.  Curious.  And I've seen every Bullshit episode and I think Randi was an awesome guy.  After reading those emails and board posts I think he's a first rate ass.  

Getting on with my original post, I'm not calling you a liar because you say you can perform PK, I'm calling you a liar because you say money means very little.  This is a major sign of someone who is completely full of shit.

Also, most comps have webcams by this point, post a video that makes it plainly obvious you are performing PK, put a non-magnetic object under a clear bowl and move it around or something.  Don't pull a Jesus and just say we should have faith in you.

----------


## crash

Personaly, I dont know untill I try it.

----------


## luv2dream

> How can we be AWAKE while ASLEEP? It's a contradiction, what do you guys think?



I think you're getting the words AWAKE and AWARE mixed up. You're not actually awake in your dream, that's more of an analogy.

----------


## luv2dream

> If the general public doesn't know about Lucid Dreaming, what other phenomena could they be missing out on?



I would agree with the fact that lucid dreaming is i guess a phenomena, but do you all really place lucid dreaming that high up there with telekenisis and mind reading and all that stuff? (or would if those things were real) I guess I'm just "good" at accepting things that are more out of the ordinary, so lucid dreaming is one of those things where it's really cool and interesting, but it only gets to be a phenomena when I REALLY think about it. I think the reason behind me thinking this is just that everyone can do it if they really try. If it was just some gift that a select few people had then it would be a bit more strange

----------


## magicdood

Why would you call me a liar for thinking that money isn't important. Did you not remember me saying that I am on the path of self-realization. When you do this, you start to lose your attachments to the physical world. So, therefore I am not attached to money. If it helps me help others, then I might care, but in this case, I am not here for fame or money. I'll admit, I haven't quite lost the attachment, but I'm not going to do this just for the money. That would be a huge waste. 

Pull a Jesus? Haha. Nope, I don't mind you not believing in me! That's absolutely fine. I can understand you not believing in me. It doesn't bother me. Go right ahead.

----------


## skysaw

With all the thousands of people out there with supposed "psi" abilities, you'd think at least _one_ of them would have proven it to a respectable scientist. Or at least _one_ of them to be in it "for the money." Or for there to be at least _one_ peer-reviewed article in a scientific journal that explained logically how it works.

People have been claiming for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years to have these abilities, and not one of them has done much in the way of proof, aside from set-up demonstrations, the workings of which could be explained by any common street magician. Houdini made it his personal mission to debunk fake seances and embarrassed many "spiritualists" in the process. But for some reason, people are still buying into the notion that seances are real.

I will say that I have an extremely open mind to possibilities that haven't been discovered yet. I recognize the possibility of anything paranormal (ghosts, alien abduction, mind-reading, etc), but the accent here is on _possibility_. So far, I've seen nothing that leads me to believe it is even remotely _probable_. And until someone steps up and shows the world, I'm going to have to go on assuming that it's all built on false dreams and snake-oil salesmen.

----------


## magicdood

Good for you. At least you are believing in what you want, and keeping in open mind. That's what is called a good skeptic. But the best proof, is the one you show yourself. I didn't quite, totally believe in this till I did it. Videos? psh...they didn't convince me.

But, I tried it out, and violah! I got it working, and now I believe in it fully. It's just a matter of having an open enough mind to try it out. ANYONE and EVERYONE can do these things. All it takes is some belief, some dedication, and the time to practice. And I guarantee you will see success. So don't look for someone else to find proof, don't be lazy! Just show yourself that it is real!

----------


## luv2dream

> Good for you. At least you are believing in what you want, and keeping in open mind. That's what is called a good skeptic. But the best proof, is the one you show yourself. I didn't quite, totally believe in this till I did it. Videos? psh...they didn't convince me.
> 
> But, I tried it out, and violah! I got it working, and now I believe in it fully. It's just a matter of having an open enough mind to try it out. ANYONE and EVERYONE can do these things. All it takes is some belief, some dedication, and the time to practice. And I guarantee you will see success. So don't look for someone else to find proof, don't be lazy! Just show yourself that it is real!



you keep saying for people to prove that it's real by trying it themselves, but how are we supposed to do that? just point our fingers at something and think really hard and it will magically lift into the air? i dont think so. I am very skeptical about it but if you had any evidence such as showing people exactly how you even learned to do it (and not just saying time and dedication, but the actual things you did) then i might believe it. I'll do what you keep asking everyone to do and keep an open mind, but still this seems unbelievably unlikely.

----------


## Chaos Theory

> you keep saying for people to prove that it's real by trying it themselves, but how are we supposed to do that? just point our fingers at something and think really hard and it will magically lift into the air? i dont think so. I am very skeptical about it but if you had any evidence such as showing people exactly how you even learned to do it (and not just saying time and dedication, but the actual things you did) then i might believe it. I'll do what you keep asking everyone to do and keep an open mind, but still this seems unbelievably unlikely.



Why don't you experiment then? hm? Find a website with techniques and try them? What harm could it do except maybe waste an hour of your life you can't get back?

Seriously if every skeptic would shut their mouth for a few minutes and try it you might get results.

----------


## skysaw

> Why don't you experiment then? hm? Find a website with techniques and try them? What harm could it do except maybe waste an hour of your life you can't get back?
> 
> Seriously if every skeptic would shut their mouth for a few minutes and try it you might get results.



Ok, I'll bite. I will give this serious attention and do my very best. Can you recommend a site that shows some beginner exercises that you think would be best for me?

----------


## Bonsay

> Ok, I'll bite. I will give this serious attention and do my very best. Can you recommend a site that shows some beginner exercises that you think would be best for me?



Yeah I want to try too. Want to be my training psi-partner?  ::content:: 
But yeah, I'd be really happy and suprised if I could make something move just a bit.

----------


## 27

PsiPog is a great place to start.

----------


## Needcatscan

> Why would you call me a liar for thinking that money isn't important. Did you not remember me saying that I am on the path of self-realization. When you do this, you start to lose your attachments to the physical world. So, therefore I am not attached to money. If it helps me help others, then I might care, but in this case, I am not here for fame or money. I'll admit, I haven't quite lost the attachment, but I'm not going to do this just for the money. That would be a huge waste. 
> 
> Pull a Jesus? Haha. Nope, I don't mind you not believing in me! That's absolutely fine. I can understand you not believing in me. It doesn't bother me. Go right ahead.




On a path of self-realization. . .  Sounds like a long boring trip :p  j/k

I respect your stance on the matter even though I personally would like to see proof, but we don't get everything we want.

I've been researching (okay, really I've just been youtube searching) and have come to the almost 100% conclusion that it is all either trickery, coincidence or self-deception, mainly with this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfMsZwr8rc

And as far as "try it yourself", been there done that.
Also notice that in ALL the psipog vids NEVER shows the person's face, body, etc, only the object and their hands.  Which means blowing could have been used in every one of them and probably was.  I'm even willing to believe that some people do it unintentionably and honestly believe they are doing it with their mind.

I'm still researching the Russian girl Nina.

----------


## magicdood

Hehe, I couldn't agree with you guys more about videos! At least we agree on something! A lot of videos are fake...definitely a big fact!

However, that doesn't mean that telekinesis is fake, does it? I mean, skeptics will point out that a psi wheel can be moved by heat, yet does that mean that it cannot be moved in any other way? Of course not!

And for trying it out yourself, do some research. There is not just one method. What I do/did, might not work for you. Also, belief in the ability helps, so if you have 0 belief that it will work, then chances are it won't simply because of the mental block that it creates.

I'm glad that some people are finally delving into this. And by all means, I'm not saying to have blind faith in me or anyone else. I could very well be lying. I'm not, but how do you guys know that? So like I said, doing it yourself is the best proof.

I would suggest, for starters, going to psipog.net (archived, but the articles are great), psistudies.net or psilinks.org to find more great sites, or psionicsonline.net

Furthermore, don't get caught up in videos. It's just too hard to tell what is real and what is not. It's not even worth arguing about the validity of certain videos. Just trust me on that one, haha.  ::D: 

Good luck,
Brandon

P.s. If you guys have any questions, wanna learn more, or just have any comments, I'm always going to be checking the private messages, so feel free to contact me that way!

----------


## The Wig

> Hehe, I'm loving this!
> 
> First off, I see where you are coming about the article on psipog, fair enough.
> 
> However, there have been numerous people who could do telekinesis that have tried to setup a meeting with Randi and been denied.
> 
> In fact, http://psistudies.net/forums/index.php?topic=541.0
> 
> Anyways, not everyone here is in this for the money. I am on the path of self-realization and Enlightenment, and money to me, means very little. I can't say that about everyone, but that takes a way me at least.
> ...



I can call you a liar because you're not even willing to TRY to prove to us your wild claim of telekinesis. 

And for the record, I have tried it in my younger days (read: 4-5 years ago). I believed in that crap 100% and tried to do witchcraft, tried to make these stupid psi-balls, spent a good time doing it. Wanna know why I failed? Because a) it doesn't exist and b) I wasn't about to try and trick myself into seeing a ball. Also, I've never heard ESP and the like connected with enlightenment. Try Buddhism? As for Buddhist, I just think they're able to clear their minds so much they don't give a crap for anything and take it while it goes. If you really think you can do telekinesis, why not use it to save the goddam world? 

If it turns out you and your ESP buddies are real, you're all incredibly selfish.  But that won't happen because you're not selfish; you're delusional. 






> Okay, I'm extremely skeptical about PK but I certainly don't think it's impossible (hence me starting this thread). And I found it very interesting how in P&N Bullsh!t that they show a quick clip of the famous Russian woman (Nina Kulagina) back years and years ago who had hundreds of controlled tests done on film and she proved she could move things with her mind over and over again, and yet Penn and Teller didn't talk about her AT ALL. Curious. And I've seen every Bullshit episode and I think Randi was an awesome guy. After reading those emails and board posts I think he's a first rate ass.







> Many skeptical individuals and organizations, such as the James Randi Educational Foundation and the Italian Committee for the Investigation of Claims on the Paranormal(CICAP) express strong skepticism regarding the truth of these claims. It is noted that the long preparation times and uncontrolled environments (such as hotel rooms) in which the experiments took place left much potential for trickery.[1] Skeptics have argued that many of Kulagina's feats could easily be performed by one practiced in sleight of hand, through means such as cleverly concealed or disguised threads, small pieces of magnetic metal, or mirrors.[2] They further point to the fact that no sleight of hand experts appear to have ever been present during experiments, and that the Cold War-era Soviet Union had an obvious motive for falsifying or exaggerating results in the potential propaganda value in appearing to win a "Psi Race" analogous to the concurrent Space Race or arms race.



Let's not trust the USSR, mmkay? 





> Getting on with my original post, I'm not calling you a liar because you say you can perform PK, I'm calling you a liar because you say money means very little. This is a major sign of someone who is completely full of shit.
> 
> Also, most comps have webcams by this point, post a video that makes it plainly obvious you are performing PK, put a non-magnetic object under a clear bowl and move it around or something. Don't pull a Jesus and just say we should have faith in you.



As for money, I can understand people who say money isn't important to them. As long as they lead a comfortable life (which doesn't mean rich), then who cares? Money destroys people all too often. (But a million dollars won't  :wink2: ). Either way, this guy is lying.





> Why would you call me a liar for thinking that money isn't important. Did you not remember me saying that I am on the path of self-realization. When you do this, you start to lose your attachments to the physical world. So, therefore I am not attached to money. If it helps me help others, then I might care, but in this case, I am not here for fame or money. I'll admit, I haven't quite lost the attachment, but I'm not going to do this just for the money. That would be a huge waste.
> 
> Pull a Jesus? Haha. Nope, I don't mind you not believing in me! That's absolutely fine. I can understand you not believing in me. It doesn't bother me. Go right ahead.



We will go ahead. You're not impressing us.

----------


## magicdood

Hehe, I'm still loving how you are calling me delusional. It just shows your ignorance. I mean, you are telling me that I cannot do Pk, when I have rolled a can, slid foil, and other things via telekinesis. Yet you are telling me that I'm delusional? 

I don't have any reason to attempt to prove it to you. Why should I? All that will happen is you will find a way to call me a liar in more ways. You my friend are very very ignorant. The comment about Buddhist, I've never heard anything like it. It's so astounding how ignorant you are. 

How am I selfish? I'm trying to spread the word of things that will help elevate us as a people, and  you are trying to stop it...yet I'm selfish? I don't think so.

Furthurmore, your lack of knowledge about enlightenment shows your lack of ability to do any research, and your lack of ability to have an open mind. Not everything that you believe is true. And until you understand that, you will not ever understand the far greater potential of our lives.

Brandon

----------


## Gumby123psi

Alright people. I promise I wont lie in any of this, but of course anybody can say that. I assure you I'm not though. I have experience in both LDing AND psionics. Theyre both real. There IS evedence of psionics too, and scientists ARE all over it. And also, somebody beat Randi's challenge. I've shown Magicdood my Psychokinesis live over a webcam. You can even ask him. He could be lying for me, but dont you think that seems a bit stupid? "Hey, will you help me fake PK to these people?". Yeah.. Do you think thered be so many websites all about psionics with thousands of members each claiming to do PK? PsiPog, PsiOnline, UPC, and MUCH more. I've convinced skeptics too just by doing some live PK and maybe sending them a psiball. Whats the point of PSI Tech (http://www.psitech.net/) if theres no such thing as psi? Psi is even used to help out in the military. Theres even gov't documents on Remote Viewing. Now try to explain every one of these I have here. And if your looking for the government documents: http://www.theblackvault.com/modules...=true&pageID=9      You can even ask for these documents yourself.The only reason why people dont beleive in psionics is because they were brought up thinking its fake. People told you that your entire life. Eat it.

----------


## Lunalight

When I try and tell people about LDing, I get all kinds of responses.  I might get, "Yeah I've done that, isn't flying fun?" from one person, and then, "You're such a liar," from the next.  I sort of halfway think telekinesis exists.  Kind of like if aliens don't visit earth how do you know they don't exist?  If you don't see you neighbor floating his mail to his hand using his mind how do you know he can't?  Hmm... interesting topic.

----------


## magicdood

Hey look! A man with an open mind. Nice to see one around here every once in a while!  ::D: 

I agree with pretty much everything you said, however, you always make me jealous by having a webcam...damn I wish I did hehe.

----------


## Silvanus350

Isn't that kind of like "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" though?  In other words, because we don't know a person _can't_ wield psionics must mean the possibility exists, right?

Don't really have an opinion here, I'm just saying that some people think along different lines.

----------


## The Wig

> Hehe, I'm still loving how you are calling me delusional. It just shows your ignorance. I mean, you are telling me that I cannot do Pk, when I have rolled a can, slid foil, and other things via telekinesis. Yet you are telling me that I'm delusional? 
> 
> I don't have any reason to attempt to prove it to you. Why should I? All that will happen is you will find a way to call me a liar in more ways. You my friend are very very ignorant. The comment about Buddhist, I've never heard anything like it. It's so astounding how ignorant you are. 
> 
> How am I selfish? I'm trying to spread the word of things that will help elevate us as a people, and  you are trying to stop it...yet I'm selfish? I don't think so.
> 
> Furthurmore, your lack of knowledge about enlightenment shows your lack of ability to do any research, and your lack of ability to have an open mind. Not everything that you believe is true. And until you understand that, you will not ever understand the far greater potential of our lives.
> 
> Brandon



You're selfish because you're obviously not trying to spread it. You're basically saying "neener neener, I can do this, but hey, I DON'T HAVE TO PROVE IT I DON'T CARE IF YOU BELIEVE ME NEENER NEENER". 

Listen, there's zero proof what you claim to do is real. ZERO. Can you understand that? And you're not providing any evidence to it either. You're just saying you can do it. That's not evidence. 

My lack of knowledge about enlightment...who the hell cares? It has nothing to do with your wildly outrageously claims of the impossible. You're like Uri Geller. You can do a few cool stunts for friends, but when someone challenges you all of a sudden you're stressed and can't perform. Why is that? Because they put in safeguards so you can't cheat.

You remind me of Steorn. They're a company that said they can produce free-energy. Now, in case you don't know, this violates the laws of thermodynamics (which just isn't going to happen). They were supposed to show their Orbo (or whatever they're calling it) machine today and prove free-energy can occur. Guess what? Technical difficulties in the cams and no show from Steorn. That's you.

A liar, or at least a very delusional person. Provide evidence that any of what you says exists or can even happen, or shut the hell up. I, and other people are not interested in your false claims.

----------


## The Wig

> When I try and tell people about LDing, I get all kinds of responses.  I might get, "Yeah I've done that, isn't flying fun?" from one person, and then, "You're such a liar," from the next.  I sort of halfway think telekinesis exists.  Kind of like if aliens don't visit earth how do you know they don't exist?  If you don't see you neighbor floating his mail to his hand using his mind how do you know he can't?  Hmm... interesting topic.



Aliens are far more likely to be real than ESP and telekinesis. They're not even comparable. The universe and it's laws account for other life forms. Not for ESP.

----------


## 27

Oh, shut up dude. If he believes in something you think is fake, why don't you just leave him to it? Do you think you're convincing anyone here?

----------


## The Wig

> Oh, shut up dude. If he believes in something you think is fake, why don't you just leave him to it? Do you think you're convincing anyone here?



What if he was spouting off some unreasonable crap about how LDing ruins your life, isn't useful at all, etc upon etc. How would you feel? He's spreading crap that has no basis in science OR reality. How then?

----------


## Silvanus350

Exactly what could you do about it over an anonymous message board?  Let him say what he likes, the people he tells it to can think for themselves like you and I.

----------


## The Wig

> Exactly what could you do about it over an anonymous message board?  Let him say what he likes, the people he tells it to can think for themselves like you and I.



The point is if some anonymous guy is posting crap someone might believe it, and then they would have a false belief. It's always good to have two sides of every view, not just this lopsided crap. 

And if we "let everyone think for themselves" then this message board wouldn't even exist for discussion, so you're point is irrelevant.

----------


## magicdood

Haha, I'm getting stressed out?! That's a good one!

Anyways, I agree, it is good to have 2 sides of every story...very good, no debate there. However, I'm actually debating, you are just calling me a liar and yelling at me. Pretty much, I'm stating my side, and you are calling me stupid. So where is your side? Being a close-minded ass? Who wants to join that side? Not me!

I'm not trying to convince anyone, just merely trying to open your minds. And your idea about me being selfish is very non-existence. I am not mocking you and saying I can do something and you can't. In fact, I have stated clearly that ANYONE can do it, and have even given sites that teach it. Now how's that for selfish? Not at all.

There are a few people so far interested, who are going to start experimenting with the greater potential of the mind that have posted so far, and probably other lurkers reading the topic. So, i'm pretty sure that others care. The problem with you, is that you think you are the center of the universe and that everything revolves around what you believe and think. It's sicking to be honest. Never have I said that it's not good to be skeptical, but it is good to be open minded. I have not tried to convert anyone, merely open their minds.

So if all you are going to do is bash and be mean to me, please stop. You are really just annoying everyone. I'll stop now to, cause i see that there is no way to get you to open your mind.

Brandon

----------


## The Wig

> Haha, I'm getting stressed out?! That's a good one!
> 
> Anyways, I agree, it is good to have 2 sides of every story...very good, no debate there. However, I'm actually debating, you are just calling me a liar and yelling at me. Pretty much, I'm stating my side, and you are calling me stupid. So where is your side? Being a close-minded ass? Who wants to join that side? Not me!
> 
> I'm not trying to convince anyone, just merely trying to open your minds. And your idea about me being selfish is very non-existence. I am not mocking you and saying I can do something and you can't. In fact, I have stated clearly that ANYONE can do it, and have even given sites that teach it. Now how's that for selfish? Not at all.
> 
> There are a few people so far interested, who are going to start experimenting with the greater potential of the mind that have posted so far, and probably other lurkers reading the topic. So, i'm pretty sure that others care. The problem with you, is that you think you are the center of the universe and that everything revolves around what you believe and think. It's sicking to be honest. Never have I said that it's not good to be skeptical, but it is good to be open minded. I have not tried to convert anyone, merely open their minds.
> 
> So if all you are going to do is bash and be mean to me, please stop. You are really just annoying everyone. I'll stop now to, cause i see that there is no way to get you to open your mind.
> ...



Yeah, I think I'm the center of the universe...wait, no I don't. There's no debating from your part. You're saying "I HAVE PSYCHIC POWERS!" and when I say provide evidence, you say "Open your mind! lolz!" Provide evidence, or shut up. The burden of proof is not upon me, it's upon you, so stop claiming things you can't prove. I'd readily apologize to you if you truly have shown you have psychic powers, but of course you won't because you don't. 

Go on television with your claims and spread your "word" to a larger audience - that you have psychic powers and everyone else can too! If you really want to help people, do that. I mean, what do you have to lose since you're 100&#37; right?

Btw, I didn't mean you in particular were being stressed out, I just meant that's how it always goes when someone disproves a psychic. They can't perform under "stressful" conditions. Bullshit, in other words.

----------


## magicdood

Ah, I see, my bad on the mis-interpretation.  Except, it's not bullshit. you've never experienced it...Pk requires a clear mind. On t.v. or in front of people, your mind can't concentrate as well. It's takes more skill, more practice. So stop saying it's bullshit when you have no idea!

I understand your argument. I really do. 

And I know you won't like my response, but that's fine. I'm not going on television cause 1. I'm too young. 2. No money. 3. parents. 4. I don't really care for the "fame" (hehe fame)

And no, that wouldn't be helping anyone out. First off, people would find ways to say I'm fake. Secondly, it would just cause conflict cause some might believe and others wouldn't. It would do more harm than good. And that is easily understandable, even for you. :p

How do you want me to provide evidence? With a video? Then you'll find ways to say that's fake...go to television? We've been over that. I showed a link showing why I can't go to Randi. Go to you? No, can't do that either. 

And yes, there have been people to show telekinesis to scientist. Yet, you don't see it publicly. I guarantee you that there are scientist studying this. 

And I'm not parading around saying how great I am, am I? I don't think so. I've never acted like I'm better than you or anyone...

Brandon

----------


## Gumby123psi

The Wig, so far you havent payed attention to ANYTHING I've said. I gave you LOTS of evidence and you havent even replied to it. And I think I heard you say earlier you tried it. Now you dont beleive it just because you couldnt get it to work? Just because you cant get it working doesnt mean its fake.

----------


## The Wig

> The Wig, so far you havent payed attention to ANYTHING I've said. I gave you LOTS of evidence and you havent even replied to it.



I probably skipped over your posts. And no, I don't believe it because science says it doesn't exist. I don't believe it because it's counterintuitive. I don't believe it because humanity has existed for hundreds of thousands of years and there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE FOR IT. Here:





> Alright people. I promise I wont lie in any of this, but of course anybody can say that. I assure you I'm not though. I have experience in both LDing AND psionics. Theyre both real. There IS evedence of psionics too, and scientists ARE all over it. And also, somebody beat Randi's challenge. I've shown Magicdood my Psychokinesis live over a webcam. You can even ask him. He could be lying for me, but dont you think that seems a bit stupid? "Hey, will you help me fake PK to these people?". Yeah.. Do you think thered be so many websites all about a PsiOnline, UPC, and MUCH more. I've convinced skeptics too just by doing some live PK and maybe sending them a psiball. Whats the point of PSI Tech (http://www.psitech.net/) if theres no such thing as psi? Psi is even used to help out in the military. Theres even gov't documents on Remote Viewing. Now try to explain every one of these I have here. And if your looking for the government documents: http://www.theblackvault.com/modules...=true&pageID=9 You can even ask for these documents yourself.The only reason why people dont beleive in psionics is because they were brought up thinking its fake. People told you that your entire life. Eat it.



Oh you promise? Well screw it then, YOU'RE RIGHT!

In reality, no you're not. I don't know where this "evidence" is, but all you linked me to were biased sources. There was also a project that did time travel "hidden" by the government! OMGOMGOMGOMG! Wait, it was fake. Also, WHO beat Radni's challenge? And if you have a webcam, show me your evidence. Read my mind, remote view me. Believe me, I'd _love_ for this kind of thing to be real. It'd be awesome. But, I just can't believe in something that makes no sense at all and has no scientific backing. Don't link to biased sources (even magicdood conceded that it doesn't help).

Get in contact with me if you can really show me you can do some shit. I used to know a guy who said he could remote view and astral project and what not, so I told him to do it to me. He said he couldn't. Maybe you can...but I doubt it.

----------


## Needcatscan

The wig - give it up, not going anywhere, although I do 99&#37; agree with you.

magicdood - I am seriously seeking out answers to whether there is any validity to your claims and others.  So if you "guarantee that there are scientists studying it" then do you have links or some place to read about it?  I would appreciate it.

Frankly, if one of the most famous (in the last 20 or 30 years) PKers can be made a complete fool of on national TV and proven to be BS, then why should we believe others?  (referring to my earlier link)  

And anyone who thinks that John Edward and other "psychics" are real, watch James Randi tear them a new asshole on youtube.  Especially the chick who said the two missing children were dead and both turned up earlier this year.  Really, really sad.

----------


## The Wig

> Ah, I see, my bad on the mis-interpretation.  Except, it's not bullshit. you've never experienced it...Pk requires a clear mind. On t.v. or in front of people, your mind can't concentrate as well. It's takes more skill, more practice. So stop saying it's bullshit when you have no idea!
> 
> I understand your argument. I really do. 
> 
> And I know you won't like my response, but that's fine. I'm not going on television cause 1. I'm too young. 2. No money. 3. parents. 4. I don't really care for the "fame" (hehe fame)
> 
> And no, that wouldn't be helping anyone out. First off, people would find ways to say I'm fake. Secondly, it would just cause conflict cause some might believe and others wouldn't. It would do more harm than good. And that is easily understandable, even for you. :p
> 
> How do you want me to provide evidence? With a video? Then you'll find ways to say that's fake...go to television? We've been over that. I showed a link showing why I can't go to Randi. Go to you? No, can't do that either. 
> ...



God damn it dude, if you're so great with psychic powers you can fucking cure the world. The effects of something like that are so far reaching it's ridiculous. You can't do it, stop pretending.

Seriously, you're only argument for you having these powers is "Well, I don't have to prove it to anyone, I can do it and that's that". If you don't have anything else to add, stop responding.

----------


## magicdood

Yes I did. I know I wouldn't want biased sources being used against me. But, the black vault isn't a biased source. It is simply a person using the freedom of information act or something to get Government documents. They are actually Declassified Gov. Documents so at least that site isn't biased.  :smiley: 

Promises now a days don't mean anything. I know they do for me, but for most people it's just another thing to say and not follow through with. It's a shame. Ruins a reputation, hehe.

I can understand how you don't believe in this. I do...but it's just like there is nothing I can do to convince you, and believe me, you won't convince me that I can't do it, since I've already done it, hah! So, let's stop arguing, kiss, make up and be bestest friends. Aside from the kissing...and stuff..how about you teach me to lucid dream cause I suck at it! haha

The point is, this argument is going nowhere. No, I'm not taking a cop-out, but there is nothing more for either of us to do/say. 

Brandon

----------


## The Wig

> The wig - give it up, not going anywhere, although I do 99% agree with you.
> 
> magicdood - I am seriously seeking out answers to whether there is any validity to your claims and others.  So if you "guarantee that there are scientists studying it" then do you have links or some place to read about it?  I would appreciate it.
> 
> Frankly, if one of the most famous (in the last 20 or 30 years) PKers can be made a complete fool of on national TV and proven to be BS, then why should we believe others?  (referring to my earlier link)  
> 
> And anyone who thinks that John Edward and other "psychics" are real, watch James Randi tear them a new asshole on youtube.  Especially the chick who said the two missing children were dead and both turned up earlier this year.  Really, really sad.



And Sylvia Brown saying some lady's husband drowned to death...as a firefighter at 9/11.

----------


## The Wig

> Yes I did. I know I wouldn't want biased sources being used against me. But, the black vault isn't a biased source. It is simply a person using the freedom of information act or something to get Government documents. They are actually Declassified Gov. Documents so at least that site isn't biased. 
> 
> Promises now a days don't mean anything. I know they do for me, but for most people it's just another thing to say and not follow through with. It's a shame. Ruins a reputation, hehe.
> 
> I can understand how you don't believe in this. I do...but it's just like there is nothing I can do to convince you, and believe me, you won't convince me that I can't do it, since I've already done it, hah! So, let's stop arguing, kiss, make up and be bestest friends. Aside from the kissing...and stuff..how about you teach me to lucid dream cause I suck at it! haha
> 
> The point is, this argument is going nowhere. No, I'm not taking a cop-out, but there is nothing more for either of us to do/say. 
> 
> Brandon



I'm actually reading the black vault thing right now just because I find a lot of this stuff extremely interesting. I hold back beliefs in almost all of it, but for the most part it makes for an very interested read. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's unbiased (if it's one person, he might just happen to believe in all of this) but it's certainly better than a site dedicated to psi.

----------


## magicdood

Well, they are government documents that are unedited..soo....no biased there. And yes, it's a great site! I love it!

Anyways, you can't just say one person is false because of the actions of others. So what, a few famous people were fakers. But guess what. It seems there is a connection. All the FAMOUS ones are fake. The real ones prefer to sit, practice, and help others. Just a theory right there, hehe. 


As to the Scientist, there is a Scientist that has had numerous results with Psionics, including pk and energy manipulation currently attempting to prove psi with science. Although, personally I believe psionics occur on a different realm then the physical, so I don't believe it will be provable. However, that has no bearing on the subject at hand! If you go to Upconline.net, his name is ErikJDurwood2...he is very interesting to talk to!

Anyways, good luck,
Brandon

----------


## Gumby123psi

http://www.crypto.com/blog/psychic_cryptanalysis/ Those are the people that beat Randi.

----------


## The Wig

> Well, they are government documents that are unedited..soo....no biased there. And yes, it's a great site! I love it!
> 
> Anyways, you can't just say one person is false because of the actions of others. So what, a few famous people were fakers. But guess what. It seems there is a connection. All the FAMOUS ones are fake. The real ones prefer to sit, practice, and help others. Just a theory right there, hehe. 
> 
> 
> As to the Scientist, there is a Scientist that has had numerous results with Psionics, including pk and energy manipulation currently attempting to prove psi with science. Although, personally I believe psionics occur on a different realm then the physical, so I don't believe it will be provable. However, that has no bearing on the subject at hand! If you go to Upconline.net, his name is ErikJDurwood2...he is very interesting to talk to!
> 
> Anyways, good luck,
> Brandon




Well, I read one of the things on remote viewing and the conclusion was - no, isn't real. I'd read the others but they're on the order of 30 - 150 pages. 

Gonna watch some of these videos on UPC.

----------


## luv2dream

> Why don't you experiment then? hm? Find a website with techniques and try them? What harm could it do except maybe waste an hour of your life you can't get back?
> 
> Seriously if every skeptic would shut their mouth for a few minutes and try it you might get results.



true, i'm only 15 and it's summer vacation so it's not like I have anything else to do. I guess I will try it if people actually claim it to be possible, but I'm not expecting any results, unless magicdood has a technique for me!

----------


## magicdood

Ok, yes, I haven't gotten through very much either cause of the length, hehe. 

Don't get carried away in the videos. Take them for what they are. Meant to be an inspiration to practitioners...not to convince anyone! I hope however, that they do impress you, hehe  :Cool: 

Oh, hello Luv2Dream. I'm glad you are taking the plunge and opening up your mind. You can try psipog.net, psistudies.net and upconline.net for some great methods! If you have any questions, just let me know in a pm! 

Good luck and I know you'll succeed!

----------


## The Wig

> http://www.crypto.com/blog/psychic_cryptanalysis/ Those are the people that beat Randi.



They "beat" the challenge by decrypting the code Randi happened to release, not by any psychic power. The contest is for demonstration of psychic powers, not for decrypting a code. I read this a while back, and either you didn't read the whole thing or you're hoping I won't. Either way, you lose.

----------


## magicdood

Haha, He loses! Oh well...Well anyways, did you read the link about how Randi is only accepting famous people with educational training or a scientific backround?  Wonder why? Maybe he was refusing to many credible sources? :p

Anyways, how did the videos hold up against your all knowing power?!  :Cool:

----------


## The Wig

> Haha, He loses! Oh well...Well anyways, did you read the link about how Randi is only accepting famous people with educational training or a scientific backround?  Wonder why? Maybe he was refusing to many credible sources? :p
> 
> Anyways, how did the videos hold up against your all knowing power?!



They won't load.

----------


## skysaw

> They "beat" the challenge by decrypting the code Randi happened to release, not by any psychic power. The contest is for demonstration of psychic powers, not for decrypting a code. I read this a while back, and either you didn't read the whole thing or you're hoping I won't. Either way, you lose.



Was just going to post the exact same thing. The author was ragging on Randi for having a non-secure protection of the secret, not claiming to have used ESP to find it. This is why he adds tongue-in-cheek at the end "I suppose I'll graciously decline his million dollars. This time."

----------


## 27

The question you have to ask yourself is, would a guy like randi, who has dedicated his whole life to disproving psychics, really ever give someone who's demonstrated psychic abilities one million dollars? It would be great if it were a non-biased challenge but unfortunatly randi always has an out. The whole thing is desined so that he never has to pay out a dime if he dosn't want to.

----------


## magicdood

I completely agree. It is very much setup that way. Also for the videos, try right clicking and saving as if you haven't already. And they work fine for me...as long as you save them.

Also, you might wanna check the videos at ppsociet.com. I don't personally frequent the site that much, but I like the videos.

----------


## The Wig

> The question you have to ask yourself is, would a guy like randi, who has dedicated his whole life to disproving psychics, really ever give someone who's demonstrated psychic abilities one million dollars? It would be great if it were a non-biased challenge but unfortunatly randi always has an out. The whole thing is desined so that he never has to pay out a dime if he dosn't want to.



it is non-biased, BOTH parties have to agree on the terms. If both parties agree, it's kind of hard to claim "No, it didn't work". Randi has already claimed he would give out the million if someone 100% proved because it would be "wonderful".

----------


## magicdood

Again, did you read the link I gave. He won't accept anyone with a good educational backround in science or a scientist. The two least likely people to believe in telekinesis. Wow, isn't that odd?

----------


## The Wig

> Again, did you read the link I gave. He won't accept anyone with a good educational backround in science or a scientist. The two least likely people to believe in telekinesis. Wow, isn't that odd?



Link again, missed it or you forgot to link it.

----------


## magicdood

It was A LONG while back but I did link it! Oh well, not a big deal.

http://psistudies.net/forums/index.php?topic=541.0

Yes this is a psionics site, but the actual thing is just a quote from Randis site or some other Affiliate so it IS un-biased. 

Enjoy,
Brandon

----------


## The Wig

> It was A LONG while back but I did link it! Oh well, not a big deal.
> 
> http://psistudies.net/forums/index.php?topic=541.0
> 
> Yes this is a psionics site, but the actual thing is just a quote from Randis site or some other Affiliate so it IS un-biased. 
> 
> Enjoy,
> Brandon



There is a reason for this. It's simple. Do you know how many people propistion this guy for the million with stupid as tricks? If he had to do every person he wouldn't have a life and he's be doing tons of these things that ultimately fail. It isn't hard to get media attention if you're a psychic, people eat that shit up. And if you get that, someone can recommend you (there ARE professors in parapsychology and shit). So it's not a bad thing.

----------


## 27

Oh, and I wanted to ask, whats wrong with believeing in psychic stuff? If, like you said, someone reading this became convinced that TK exists, where's the harm in that, even if TK dosn't exist?

----------


## magicdood

I most certainly understand. But he cannot punish those who can do it for real, just because of some other immature people. And thus, his test is invalid.

----------


## The Wig

> I most certainly understand. But he cannot punish those who can do it for real, just because of some other immature people. And thus, his test is invalid.



That doesn't make it invalid. It's easy enough to get fame and a recommendation. If you're serious and can do it, it's not hard at all to do the challenge.

----------


## 27

You're serious? It's not hard to get fame? Maybe if you want to dedicate your whole life to proving what an amazing psychic you are. Most practitioners of TK arn't that vain.

----------


## magicdood

Very true. I know for myself personally, I don't want the fame AT ALL. And I know of many other practitioners who feel the same way. It's not all that odd that these people who do not want the fame are the ones who progress, since they are in it to expand their mind. Yet those that would show it on t.v. and want fame, do not progress as they are not in it for the right reasons. 

And by invalid, I just mean the average joe like me cannot get a spot to attempt to show telekinesis, so it is in a way invalid. It is VERY hard to get famous, and I don't plan on spending too much money or time on it. So...that statement was not very true, in my opinion.

----------


## The Wig

> You're serious? It's not hard to get fame? Maybe if you want to dedicate your whole life to proving what an amazing psychic you are. Most practitioners of TK arn't that vain.



It's hard to get fame if you're trying to be a movie star or some kick ass guitarist. Psychics can get fame practically instantly because people WANT to believe. Same way all these free-energy quacks get noticed all the time, because people WANT to believe in it.

----------


## magicdood

What am I supposed to do. Being my age, just walk up to Larry King and do telekinesis? Not happening. :p

----------


## The Wig

> What am I supposed to do. Being my age, just walk up to Larry King and do telekinesis? Not happening. :p



...yeah? Basically pretty much if you want to be that extreme. Or start locally, move to state wide, and go national. All you have to do is be assertive and show off your "ability". And considering no one else is competing for the market that much, it's not hard to get noticed.

----------


## 27

In case you didn't read that closly enough, now _Randi_ will challenge _you_. That means he can pick and chose who he wants to test. If theres someone who has a certain amount of fame and apears to have real abilitys, randi dosn't have to challege them. On anouther note, who desides if you're famose enough to be tested?

----------


## magicdood

Ah, Randi..and if you just might have the ability, will he challenge you, of course not! 

Also, I've said enough, I don't want the fame. I don't. So I'm not going to do that haha.

----------


## The Wig

> In case you didn't read that closly enough, now _Randi_ will challenge _you_. That means he can pick and chose who he wants to test. If theres someone who has a certain amount of fame and apears to have real abilitys, randi dosn't have to challege them. On anouther note, who desides if you're famose enough to be tested?



Eh, guess I didn't catch that. Point still stands. They can't test everyone. Either way, there's other people to verify. He's not the only damn person.

----------


## magicdood

hehe, yup. You could do it to! :p

----------


## 27

For most, It's enough to be able to prove it to themselfs. They don't have to run around doing "tricks" for anyone who will watch. It's one thing to have a few people on a forum calling you a liar. Having a few thousand people calling you a liar in the real world is another.

----------


## magicdood

I agree completely. In fact, Wig, your argument has been brought up on numerous occasions. The same answer is always given. We don't want the fame, and we don't want to be called liars! It's just not worth it.

----------


## The Wig

> I agree completely. In fact, Wig, your argument has been brought up on numerous occasions. The same answer is always given. We don't want the fame, and we don't want to be called liars! It's just not worth it.



My argument that what you claim to do can't be done comes up many times? I don't doubt it at all. My point is, don't claim it since you cannot do it. Just don't claim it or bring it up if you "don't want fame" because here you're getting some kind of attention for it, no matter how small, you're still liking it. Why bother bringing it up on a public forum? You could have just given links to places that they could look at themselves or talked to people via PM or IM. Bringing it up on a public forum is just you vying for some form of attention for your "ability".

----------


## Mocari

So.. nobody even considered my point of view?
I keep hearing people ask for proof, or tell them there is proof but not showing much.
What if it is up to You, personally, whether there is proof that can be shown?
Myself i find that to explain a lot, a very clear way of looking at the world.

----------


## The Wig

> So.. nobody even considered my point of view?
> I keep hearing people ask for proof, or tell them there is proof but not showing much.
> What if it is up to You, personally, whether there is proof that can be shown?
> Myself i find that to explain a lot, a very clear way of looking at the world.



Point taken, but the point is: there is no evidence to even look at. So I can't exactly look at it (or anyone else) because true "psychics" are all secretive and stuff and don't want their MAGICAL POWERS out in society where people can know and learn and become ENLIGHTENED!

----------


## magicdood

God you are annoying. Like really really annoying, hehe. But yes, I can see where you got the attention thing. More like helping people expand their minds. I don't want attention nor fame. I want to help people. Please understand that.

----------


## Mocari

> Point taken, but the point is: there is no evidence to even look at. So I can't exactly look at it (or anyone else) because true "psychics" are all secretive and stuff and don't want their MAGICAL POWERS out in society where people can know and learn and become ENLIGHTENED!



That answer seems to be very much alike the way things are, and very much alike the way You believe things to be, right?

I didn't mean that You might not see proof that is there. 
What i meant to say is that there may not be proof at all, because You don't believe there to be proof.

----------


## 27

I agree, this is getting annoying. The Wig ignored one of my posts, whats the worst that could come from believeing in TK. Really, whats wrong with it?

----------


## magicdood

Absolutely nothing. I mean, at the worst, it's fake. Which it's not haha. But at the best, you can train your mind to perform an amazing ability! 

Let us believe in what we want, Wig. Just cause you are close-minded, you don't have to take it out on others hehe. 

And 27, do you believe in PK?  :Confused:   :wink2:

----------


## Needcatscan

Okay, I gotta get this out of my system...
Shut the Fuck Up!!!!
Okay, I'm better.  Really.  All smiles now  :smiley: 

"I don't want the fame!"  "Money means very little to me."  "I don't have to prove it to you."  "I'm an attention seeking 12-year-old pussy!"  

This same old bullshit is being peddled and regurgitated over and over again!  No wonder Randi gets so pissed dealing with you people!  Either prove it or fuck off!

You have a world where telekinesis DOES NOT exist.  Period.  And yet, you're claming that you can do it. . . and you just want to keep it to yourself!????  Like Randi said:  If someone can actually prove psychic ability then it is a scientific breakthrough, and (end paraphrase, begin personal opinion) probably the next step in the evolution of man.  Isn't that a big deal?  Isn't that a good reason to prove you can really do these things instead of hiding away and doing it just for fun?  That would be like Isaac Newton only messing around with Calculus and Physics (things that the most of the world could only look at and scratch their heads) for fun and not never show them to the real world.  How much sense does that make?

So you can really move things with your mind?  Tell someone!  Show your damn parents!  If they believe you show more people until your the talk of the town and until eventually you become known as the first person to discover Psi and usure in the next stage of human evolution.  

Bastard.


By the way, Lucid dreaming rocks!

----------


## magicdood

Haha, your ignorance is astounding! I actually feel bad for you, in a way. I'm so much younger than you, physically, yet much more mature! Imagine that!

I have a world where telekinesis doesn't exist? I do? Well that doesn't explain my ability to do telekinesis now does it? Hmm, I better rewrite the definition of my world. Cause I most certainly can do it.

Also, if you were not so lost in the ignorance of your egoistical mind, you would realize my reasons for not wanting fame. However, your mind cannot possibly understand it, so I know why you are frustrated. 

How can you say that telekinesis doesn't exist? I mean really..your ignorance makes you look stupid. Hahahha! I'm laughing..guess why..cause i've done telekinesis! God this is great! I'm loving it!

Also, why would this make me a bastard...do you think it is cool to be mean and call others names? wow.

----------


## Needcatscan

> Haha, your ignorance is astounding! I actually feel bad for you, in a way. I'm so much younger than you, physically, yet much more mature! Imagine that!
> 
> I have a world where telekinesis doesn't exist? I do? Well that doesn't explain my ability to do telekinesis now does it? Hmm, I better rewrite the definition of my world. Cause I most certainly can do it.
> 
> Also, if you were not so lost in the ignorance of your egoistical mind, you would realize my reasons for not wanting fame. However, your mind cannot possibly understand it, so I know why you are frustrated. 
> 
> How can you say that telekinesis doesn't exist? I mean really..your ignorance makes you look stupid. Hahahha! I'm laughing..guess why..cause i've done telekinesis! God this is great! I'm loving it!
> 
> Also, why would this make me a bastard...do you think it is cool to be mean and call others names? wow.




ROFL!!!!! :smiley:

----------


## Silvanus350

> ...do you think it is cool to be mean and call others names? wow.



Do you?  You've been at it ever since this mockery started.  I've lost count of the no. of times you've called people close-minded and ignorant.

Just sayin'.

----------


## Mocari

Could we stop attacking each other and start listening to each other?
Lets put it this way then. 
If i'm right, and 
what You perceive as true = all that is true to You, "in Your experience",
then the reason for there not being any proof on psi, is Your view of the world.

----------


## 27

No one wants that kind of fame man. This is to much for people to accept. You'd just be making yourself into a target of redicule. Look at lucid dreaming. Your own personal unverce in which you can do anything you want to every night. Sounds preety good right? And it's scientifically accepted. Even better. Yet who knows about it? It's a very small community when you consider that the information is free to anyone. Even if you managed to prove TK, what then? Whats the use? 

And for the love of G-d, what's wrong with believeing in it?

----------


## The Wig

> Absolutely nothing. I mean, at the worst, it's fake. Which it's not haha. But at the best, you can train your mind to perform an amazing ability! 
> 
> Let us believe in what we want, Wig. Just cause you are close-minded, you don't have to take it out on others hehe. 
> 
> And 27, do you believe in PK?



How is it close minded to not believe in things that don't exist? How about this...I believe in unicorns at the bottom of my coffee. They are also invisible so you can't prove they exist. You don't believe in them do you? WELL FUCK OFF BECAUSE I DO.

See how stupid that is? If you make some huge, unsubstantiated claim, I will call it for what it is - false. 

Also, 27, sorry I can't respond to all your posts, my life isn't dedicated to this topic or this forum. I can't be expected to catch every post and respond to it now can I?

----------


## magicdood

> Do you?  You've been at it ever since this mockery started.  I've lost count of the no. of times you've called people close-minded and ignorant.
> 
> Just sayin'.



I see where you are coming from. But it is not an insult, but more a truthful statement. And yes, I should not be judging people, and that is correct, but I am quite sure that in those situations  they were truthfully being ignorant or close-minded, right? I've never called anyone names, cusses or anything of the sort though.  :Cool: 

Haha, how do you know telekinesis is false. Because people have been exploited as fake? Does that mean that EVERYONE is fake? No. So how do you know?

And as for Needcatscan, I don't really know what was so funny but at least you didn't insult me so I'll take that as a good thing, hah. And I don't really know why I start talking about consciousness, things obviously above your heads.

----------


## Chaos Theory

Haha I just remembered something that I read on the internet. I bet few of you have heard of a Show called Dragonball z? Why not look up Rad ki on the internet and then tell me about " Insanity. "

----------


## Needcatscan

> No one wants that kind of fame man. This is to much for people to accept. You'd just be making yourself into a target of redicule. Look at lucid dreaming. Your own personal unverce in which you can do anything you want to every night. Sounds preety good right? And it's scientifically accepted. Even better. Yet who knows about it? It's a very small community when you consider that the information is free to anyone. Even if you managed to prove TK, what then? Whats the use? 
> 
> And for the love of G-d, what's wrong with believeing in it?




I guess it's better than believing in religion, but that's another argument. . .
How about we drop PK and agree that lucid dreaming rocks?

----------


## Silvanus350

Sweet merciful Lord don't turn this into a religous topic.  And yes, it does.  ::D:

----------


## magicdood

Well, I've never experienced it, but I'll take your word for it! (pk is better. :p)

Haha, ok, i'm gonna have a lucid dream tonight!

----------


## Needcatscan

> Sweet merciful Lord don't turn this into a religous topic.  And yes, it does.



LOL.  I thought it would help turn this in a different direction.

Magicdood - I just find it funny that some kid is telling a University graduate that things are above his head.  Haven't you heard?  College students know everything. :p (yes, said in jest)

----------


## 27

Ok, Wig, how about answering it now for the forth time; What is wrong with believing in PK? What harm can come of it.

----------


## Needcatscan

> Well, I've never experienced it, but I'll take your word for it! (pk is better. :p)
> 
> Haha, ok, i'm gonna have a lucid dream tonight!



All of our battling put aside, good luck, it's an awesome experience.

----------


## magicdood

Haha, Thanks! it seems we are over it! Gosh, finally. Let's stick with talking about lucid dreaming, something we both beleive in!

Ok, so I'm going to have my first one tonight! But should I try Wild, vild, fild or Mild haha. I'm leaning towards fild. and yes, I've done research... ::D:

----------


## Gumby123psi

> Okay, I gotta get this out of my system...
> Shut the Fuck Up!!!!
> Okay, I'm better.  Really.  All smiles now 
> 
> "I don't want the fame!"  "Money means very little to me."  "I don't have to prove it to you."  "I'm an attention seeking 12-year-old pussy!"  
> 
> This same old bullshit is being peddled and regurgitated over and over again!  No wonder Randi gets so pissed dealing with you people!  Either prove it or fuck off!
> 
> "You have a world where telekinesis DOES NOT exist.  Period.  And yet, you're claming that you can do it. . . and you just want to keep it to yourself!????  Like Randi said:  If someone can actually prove psychic ability then it is a scientific breakthrough, and (end paraphrase, begin personal opinion) probably the next step in the evolution of man.  Isn't that a big deal?  Isn't that a good reason to prove you can really do these things instead of hiding away and doing it just for fun?  That would be like Isaac Newton only messing around with Calculus and Physics (things that the most of the world could only look at and scratch their heads) for fun and not never show them to the real world.  How much sense does that make?
> ...



Ok..I have no way of getting to Randi, and nor do most other psychics like me and Magicdood. We have no way of getting fame either. I showed most of my class. Everybody just got impressed and life went on. No news reporter showed up, nothing. Even if I did want the fame..What would I do to get it? Would I go show a news reporter? No..Those things have been on the news already, and I cant even get to anything like that. If I show a few people, they all talk about it, and we go on. I show somebody else and they just get impressed but it doesnt speread through the whole town and end up on the fucking news. And the wig:

"How is it close minded to not believe in things that don't exist? How about this...I believe in unicorns at the bottom of my coffee. They are also invisible so you can't prove they exist. You don't believe in them do you? WELL FUCK OFF BECAUSE I DO.

See how stupid that is? If you make some huge, unsubstantiated claim, I will call it for what it is - false. 

Also, 27, sorry I can't respond to all your posts, my life isn't dedicated to this topic or this forum. I can't be expected to catch every post and respond to it now can I?"

Nobody does that. We never said to fuck off because you dont beleive and we do, we argued with you. Theres nothing wrong with that. You try to convince us by telling us something, we say thats not true and back it up, then we say something and you usually ignore it or say its stupid or unreliable or try to say somehing about it proving it wrong. The last one is ok.

I have seen it happen with my own eyes. I have proved it to myself.

Btw I bet I've had more LD's than all of you.

----------


## metalforever

Randi is an ass and a fraud.
http://psipog.net/art-beware-pseudo-skepticism.html

More than one of us have tried winning this "million dollar challenge".  It is impossible, and you would have know that provided you had done your research.


Instead of me telling you if Psychokinesis does or does not exist, i challenge you to make a true effort to learn it, and then come back and say that it is fake with a straight face.  

Showing you videos, however, is pointless, due to the fact that you will just find some way to disprove them anyway, even if the reason isn't justified.  If you'd like to see some videos anyway, they can be viewed in Psipog.net's media section and UpcOnline.net's media section.  Surely the 19,000 + members that joined Psipog before its archiving can't possibly be wrong?

----------


## magicdood

Well, how's that for Back up. :p

But yes, Wig, now that I think about it, that was highly uncalled for. I mean, why do that? Why tell me to fuck off? Cause you can't have a mature debate? Jeez.  :Cool: 

Back to lucid dreaming quick before we get in another argument! :p

----------


## Needcatscan

guys, I don't know if you got the memo, but we're not talking about PK anymore

----------


## magicdood

My back up was late bud! Hehe...

Righto. So again, having a lucid tonight and feeling confident. I'll relate my experiences in the morning.  ::D:  I expect everyone to do the same. haha. Even wig!! :p

----------


## Needcatscan

> Haha, Thanks! it seems we are over it! Gosh, finally. Let's stick with talking about lucid dreaming, something we both beleive in!
> 
> Ok, so I'm going to have my first one tonight! But should I try Wild, vild, fild or Mild haha. I'm leaning towards fild. and yes, I've done research...



FILD never really did it for me, honestly WBTB and DILDs are the way to go.  Also the DEILD method works wonders for when you come out of an LD and want to launch straight back into it.  I can get four or five in a row with this method, but only after getting the first with a DILD with/without WBTB.

----------


## Chaos Theory

I'm trying WBTB/WILD. I first time I did it I was very close but the second, third ECT, failed. Fell asleep.  :Bang head:  I might try MILD though if I can wake up after a dream.

----------


## magicdood

I don't understand how to do DIld with WBTB. What do you do to have one? Ya know what I'm asking. How do you have one on purpose, or train or whatever...you know what I mean, hehe.

Also, fild got great results so that was why I was thinking of trying it.

----------


## The Wig

> Ok, Wig, how about answering it now for the forth time; What is wrong with believing in PK? What harm can come of it.



Nothing in itself. But what is wrong is putting it forth as fact without an evidence for it. That's what's fundamentally wrong with it.

----------


## TheUncanny

The problem with TK is that it's observable, which means it can be studied sufficiently to, at the very least, _suggest_ the existence of TK. In reality, there is no good reason why there is *still* a lack of scientific evidence supporting that phenomenon. None at all. It just seems odd that when the sceintific method is applied to TK, the skill seems to vanish.

To reiterate, TK *is not* one of those phenomena that can't be studied or examined by sceince.  Believeing such a thing is completely untrue.  If someone can move something with their mind, sceintists can setup a controlled situation to study it, and to amount evidence in favor for it if its legitimate TK.  Evidence that actually holds up...

And never mind Randi, he is only one person and cannot be blamed for single-handedly keeping TK from being sceintifically legit. What about the other millions of sceintists who would KILL to make that breakthrough, and the hundreds of thousand of TKers worldwide who claim to have the ability?  Youd think that at least a handfull of these people would be able to produce some LEGIT evidence that could be DEMONSTRATED under scientific conditions.

I mean, why do you have to do it yourself in order to have proof?  Why can't it just be observed under scientific conditions??  If tk is real, and sooo many people can do it, why can't someone somwhere just do it...if only to shut skeptics up?  

God knows many of these TKer will argue to no end with skeptics. Why spend time and energy doing that, but not actually proving it?  

I dont think its entirely impossible, but at the moment I dont think its real. The whole PSI community is suspect if you ask me.  Their goal should be to "enlighten" the sceintific community, not merely to ridicule it for sticking by the sceintific method.

----------


## magicdood

Hmm, should I go post in the "psi abilities, i think not topic?" I mean, it will only get in an argument, so I won't, ahha! Damn, I'll just let out my frustration here :p

----------


## 27

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by 27  
> Ok, Wig, how about answering it now for the forth time; What is wrong with believing in PK? What harm can come of it. 
> 
> Nothing in itself. But what is wrong is putting it forth as fact without an evidence for it. That's what's fundamentally wrong with it.



Again, so what? What if we are"putting it forth as fact without an evidence for it". Whats the problem? Whats the worst that can happen?

----------


## The Wig

> Again, so what? What if we are"putting it forth as fact without an evidence for it". Whats the problem? Whats the worst that can happen?



Well back in the day they called it the Inquisition. And the Holocaust.

Extreme examples, but the point is claims without fact are always bad.

----------


## TheUncanny

well, the worst that can happen is that you arent taken seriously. And unless im mistaken, thats the one thing that all supposed TKers seem to be bothered by.  They all complain non-stop about how ignorant and closed-minded people are, especially the sceintific community, yet doesn't it seem strange that NO ONE tries to do anything about it?  How much sense does that make?  They all want to be taken seriously, yet at the same time NONE take serious measures.  That doesnt say much for the 19,000 psipog members if you ask me.  Either they can't actually pull it off, or all 19,000 are cowards.  Oh wait, I mean "too humble and/or wise"  :tongue2:

----------


## 27

Soooooooo, people believeing in PK will bring about a second Holocaust?

*edit* Ethen, so you think the 19,000 psipog members are all playing make believe and lieing about being able to use PK?

----------


## TheUncanny

probably not, but it does open the door for people to be taken advantage of because of misinformation.

----------


## The Wig

> Soooooooo, people believeing in PK will bring about a second Holocaust?
> 
> *edit* Ethen, so you think the 19,000 psipog members are all playing make believe and lieing about being able to use PK?



I don't believe I ever said that. I said those are examples (and extreme ones). I'm just saying false information IS NEVER GOOD. Why can you not understand that?

----------


## 27

Because I still don't have an answer from you about what can happen if one believes in PK. Really, is it worth arguing if you think it's not true?

----------


## TheUncanny

> *edit* Ethen, so you think the 19,000 psipog members are all playing make believe and lieing about being able to use PK?




Numbers are irrelevent when evidence is absent.  Like the saying goes "just because thousands believe doesnt make it true."  Tell me, of all of these people, why is there still no evidence?  WHY?  answer that one question before moving onto another.

----------


## 27

There is pleanty of evidence, dude. Look through this whole thread, you'll find links.

----------


## magicdood

DAMNIT. Why are you we the subject ok PK again?! I thought we were over this haha.

----------


## TheUncanny

> Because I still don't have an answer from you about what can happen if one believes in PK.



I did say this just a second ago.





> it does open the door for people to be taken advantage of




and im not talking about videos or testimonials, im talking about credible evidence, scientific evidence. In fact, given the sheer number of videos, youd think someone could repeat their performance in a lab...why hasnt it happened?

----------


## The Wig

> Because I still don't have an answer from you about what can happen if one believes in PK. Really, is it worth arguing if you think it's not true?



Well, I'd imagine the worst is that they'd waste a lot of time doing something that doesn't exist and makes them look like complete retards to others. You want that for your kids? If no, then there's your answer.

----------


## Mocari

..

----------


## 27

Sorry magicdood, but as long as they argue their side, I'll argue mine.

Ethen, care to be specific? Say I choose to believe in this stuff, go to psipog, read the articals, and practice them. Whatever the outcome, I don't believe I'm being taken advantage of.

----------


## 27

> Well, I'd imagine the worst is that they'd waste a lot of time doing something that doesn't exist and makes them look like complete retards to others. You want that for your kids? If no, then there's your answer.



Kid's becoming intrested in something? Oh No! Kids being looked at as strange or "retarded", why, that would never happen without a belief in PK! Thank goodness we have you here to save us from our own stupidity!

----------


## TheUncanny

The thing is that I have practiced this stuff, so that argument doesn't apply here. And I know you are no doubt going to say "even though you couldn't do it doesnt mean it cant be done" and you are correct, but that is percisely the problem with the whole "do it yourself if you want evidence" argument.  There is no actual substance, no empricial data. Its just:
"do it yourself then" 
"I tried, it didnt work" 
"Then you didnt do it right" 
"how convient...got any other proof then"
"..."

And as you must know, ASmattman and his "The best psi wheel video" is proof enough that video's of TK, though entertaining, are far from being anything close to evidence.

----------


## The Wig

> Kid's becoming intrested in something? Oh No! Kids being looked at as strange or "retarded", why, that would never happen without a belief in PK! Thank goodness we have you here to save us from our own stupidity!



Yeah, I'm here to save you and your kids. The point is, kids have enough problems they don't need to be thinking they can be a witch or warlock or anything. This is reality here. People need to come live in it.

----------


## 27

I was asking you to be more specific about how one could be taken advantage of.





> Ethen, care to be specific? Say I choose to believe in this stuff, go to psipog, read the articals, and practice them. Whatever the outcome, I don't believe I'm being taken advantage of.

----------


## 27

> Yeah, I'm here to save you and your kids. The point is, kids have enough problems they don't need to be thinking they can be a witch or warlock or anything. This is reality here. People need to come live in it.



I reject your reality and substitute my own.

----------


## TheUncanny

well, there is always the person who is trying to make money. So book deals, seminars, running free website's but collecting mega add money on the side.  Perhaps for fame.  Perhaps to just feel important or special.  Perhaps just to screw with people for fun/ because they can. Im sure there are more reasons i havent thought of, but you get the point.

----------


## The Wig

> I was asking you to be more specific about how one could be taken advantage of.



I believe I said it? Ridicule. False beliefs in reality. Those are far more than enough.

----------


## 27

Again with my example, how am I being taken advantage of? I'm not giving anyone any money. I'm not buying any books, attending any seminars, I highly doubt he's making "mega add money" with the few small ads I saw. I know the creater of the site only by screen names. If it didn't work he'd really have to reason to feel speacial would he? Just to screw with me? Wow, thats a preety bad prank. Taking a few minutes out of my time to try his exersizes, I bet that never got old.

----------


## 27

Sorry Wig, I ment that reply to be to ethen.

----------


## The Wig

> Again with my example, how am I being taken advantage of? I'm not giving anyone any money. I'm not buying any books, attending any seminars, I highly doubt he's making "mega add money" with the few small ads I saw. I know the creater of the site only by screen names. If it didn't work he'd really have to reason to feel speacial would he? Just to screw with me? Wow, thats a preety bad prank. Taking a few minutes out of my time to try his exersizes, I bet that never got old.



You do realize those infomercials and psychics make money off unsuspecting people right? People are stupid. Peter Popoff made millions with a radio in his ear. Just because you're not being fooled and taken advantage of, doesn't mean others aren't. And the fact of the matter is they are.

----------


## Mocari

Bang bang. I like this video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0MXTeLBKN8 ) a bit, it's interesting.
I'll stop posting in this thread now  :tongue2: 
BB

----------


## TheUncanny

or maybe people just want to believe that there is more to this world than what can be explained.


I dunno.


The point is, regardless of if you are or arent part of some guys evil scheme, why is there the mysterious lack of credible evidence?  Its a very important question that deserves an answer.  Stop dodging it.

----------


## 27

I didn't dodge it man, look at a previouse post of mine. These is evidence. people have been posting links throughout this thread. I'm not going to do the legwork for you, go look for it yourself.

----------


## The Wig

> I didn't dodge it man, look at a previouse post of mine. These is evidence. people have been posting links throughout this thread. I'm not going to do the legwork for you, go look for it yourself.



Burden of proof isn't on us. Either way, all those links are biased.

----------


## 27

Everyone is biased! Sorry, can't get around it. Any articals about the existence of PK are going to either be writen by those who strongly believe it or those who strongly apose it.

----------


## TheUncanny

none of your evidence is recognized by the scientific community. Why?

----------


## The Wig

> God you idiot, everyone is biased! Sorry, can't get around it. Any articals about the existence of PK are going to either be writen by those who strongly believe it or those who strongly apose it.



Those are _extremely_ biased, excuse me. If there's so many psychics out there, it's not hard to prove it. All will prove to be false because they're faking and lying. This isn't hard to understand. Someone would have come forth by now.

----------


## Chaos Theory

> none of your evidence is recognized by the scientific community. Why?



 

Fundamental Dynamic Psi is a course aimed to clear up the misconceptions about dynamic psi, and present information to learn to perform it.

Lesson 1
http://forums.vsociety.net/topic/9683.0

Lesson 2
http://forums.vsociety.net/topic/9836.0

Lesson 3
http://forums.vsociety.net/topic/9907.0

Lesson 4
http://forums.vsociety.net/topic/9995.0

Lesson 5
http://forums.vsociety.net/topic/10067.0

Lesson 6
http://forums.vsociety.net/topic/10154.0

I've actually began to noitice that Psi and Lucid are very relevant to each other. Both require time, effort and a good attitude. Also a well focused mind and varies from person to person regarding how long or fast it will take to learn the subject.

----------


## 27

Dude there are scientists that believe in PK. There is evidence. Quantum physics is going along way toward proving PK. Someday PK will be as accepted as lucid dreaming is now. For now, it's late, and I want to go to sleep. I'll try to be back on tomarrow.

----------


## The Wig

> Dude there are scientists that believe in PK. There is evidence. Someday PK will be as accepted as lucid dreaming is now. For now, it's late, and I want to go to sleep. I'll try to be back on tomarrow.



Links to these legit scientists please.

----------


## TheUncanny

I don't see how that answers my question Chaos, and in case you try the ol' of "your ignorant because you wont even try it, thus nothing you say has any merit" fallacy, remember that I have actually tried this (not those six lessons, mind you) and even if i hadn't, my points are still valid. I actually got it to move a few times. But as soon as the glass went over the setup, nada, even after much practice.  And since videos of covered psi wheel can and are faked on a regular basis, such examples are moot.  And thats my TK experience in a nut shell


Now here's the problem in a nutshell, seeing as its rather difficult to stress this point:

-Thousands of people claim they can perform telekinsis at will.
-Many dedicate their time to promoting and defending TK.
-Of these people, most are bothered by the fact that TK is not recognized as a legitimate phenomenon, especially in the eyes of sceince.
-Thousands of sceintists are willing to test telekinesis under sceintific conditions.
-This situation has been going on for decades
-Though there have been experiments, not one case of TK has ever been validated (or recognized by the sceintific community as being legit).

Its not unreasonable to consider this and be suspicious of TK, and it doesnt help that, even though such a phenomenon is so widespread nowadays, there is still no actual substantiation or validation of TK.  Those big numbers aren't helping your case, they are hurting it.  As more and more people claim to be able to do TK, the less likely the lack of scientifically sound evidence is due to "oversight".





> Dude there are scientists that believe in PK. There is evidence. Quantum physics is going along way toward proving PK. Someday PK will be as accepted as lucid dreaming is now. For now, it's late, and I want to go to sleep. I'll try to be back on tomarrow.



Im not saying its impossible. At one time, germs weren't recognised by sceince either. But only time can tell.  And please don't cite "what the bleep", thats movie made a mad-libz out of sceince.

----------


## skysaw

> Dude there are scientists that believe in PK. There is evidence.



Source, please.





> Quantum physics is going along way toward proving PK.



Spoken like someone who does not really understand the concept of Quantum Physics. I am moderately well-versed on the subject and can tell you that this is a misconception.

----------


## TaNK

Honestly, I never understood how people could find Lucid Dreaming even the least bit unbelievable or put it with telekinesis and whatnot. I mean, I immediately understood and accepted LDing as fact becuase it made sense to me.

My thought process goes something like this.
1. I have had "accidental" [not induced] LDs, so it IS possible.
2. Reality Checking allows one to determine what is real and what isn't.
3. Therefore, by using RCs, you can determine when you are dreaming, and thus gain lucidity.

I simply thought that and believed it without a second thought. I think the majority of people have had some experience with Lucidity, most likely accidental. I don't tend to believe in Psi and whatnot simply because I've had no experience with it. Then again, I've never tried.

----------


## skysaw

> Honestly, I never understood how people could find Lucid Dreaming even the least bit unbelievable or put it with telekinesis and whatnot. I mean, I immediately understood and accepted LDing as fact becuase it made sense to me.



I agree. When I first heard of it, it instantly made sense. Your dream is just your imagination, and your imagination potentialy has no limit.

Of course in this sense, LD is exactly like telekinesis... both are products of the imagination.

----------


## magicdood

So wait, you practiced Pk. And how long? With what method?

Also, how does wind or heat have to do with sliding foil or rolling a can...with no hands up. Explain that to me..

Furthermore, this is ridiculously. I know that this has already been posted, but can I please re-post it. Nina Kuglagina. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...lagina&spell=1

She worked under strict scientific surroundings, and had body measurements showedsomething was going on. The scientist found no illegitimate workings.

 "Thousands of sceintists are willing to test telekinesis under sceintific conditions." Really, gimme a link to some that are. And don't let it be Randi. Gimme some sources.

Also, I'm sick of you guys using this damn argument. Most of us don't want fame. We don't want any conflict. It would just leave some believing and some not believing and it wouldn't be good. Furthermore, it's usually the people that don't want fame that progress, cause they are patient and are doing this for a better reason than fame. 

And how about this. Maybe, just maybe, pk is an ability performed on another dimension. But, what happens there happens here, it just looks like nothing happened. So, therefore science would not be able to test it cause it isn't on the physical dimension. So...lack of scientific evidence? Of course, it might be untestable. And also, I believe fully in what Mocari said. We see what we believe we should see.

So I might levitate a pencil in front of you, but you would just see it laying on the ground cause you can't comprehend that possibility. Sounds pretty reasonable of a theory to me.

Also, why are we still arguing? I just rolled a can not to long ago...no hands up. So, I mean, what exactly are you trying to tell me? That pk isn't real? Well that's fine, you can tell me till pigs fly cause it's not affecting me any. So for you to tell me it's not real is hilarious..However I know that you won't believe that but it's fine. 19,000 people claiming to do it should be enough. 

Who would spend the time creating these sites and methods and stuff, for nothing? Why?

----------


## magicdood

> I agree. When I first heard of it, it instantly made sense. Your dream is just your imagination, and your imagination potentialy has no limit.
> 
> Of course in this sense, LD is exactly like telekinesis... both are products of the imagination.



Products of your imagination? Hehe. Ok...well I've showed telekinesis to friends and parents, and they both saw it move exactly like me and the other spectators so try again.

----------


## skysaw

> Products of your imagination? Hehe. Ok...well I've showed telekinesis to friends and parents, and they both saw it move exactly like me and the other spectators so try again.



I can move things too. I studied magic as a child, and still remember lots of tricks.

----------


## magicdood

Gosh Darn that is funny. Obviously I mean Pk though. And yes, I did refute your imagination claim, so try again.

----------


## skysaw

Hardly a refutation... you are aware of the meaning of the word?

What you are experiencing is not "PK," it is commonly referred to as "Static Electricity." Here is the explaination and repeat experiments duplicating your moving *foil* or *cans* (hello.... red flag!)

http://www.cicap.org/new/articolo.php?id=101003

If that's too much to read, you can skip down to the last couple of paragraphs and get the gist.

----------


## magicdood

Hehe, did you not read where I did it with no hands. Don't you think I'd be more careful than that? Jeez, I take my scientific measures as well, heh. So yes, no hands, face a few feet away and covered by shirt.

----------


## skysaw

> Hehe, did you not read where I did it with no hands. Don't you think I'd be more careful than that? Jeez, I take my scientific measures as well, heh. So yes, no hands, face a few feet away and covered by shirt.



Yes. Are you aware that I have four arms and my house is made out of Nutella? Are you aware that people can type whatever they want and make whatever claims they want? 

But more seriously... Are you aware that magicians can duplicate that feet without psi abilities (and probably a lot more convincingly)? Are you aware that no one has ever done what you claim and been recorded under _strictly controlled_ conditions?

----------


## magicdood

Nina Kuglagina has. And yes, I'm very aware. I could just as easily be lying.

But are you dumb. Just cause a magician can do it 1 way, does it mean that it cannot be done another way? I don't think so.

----------


## skysaw

> Nina Kuglagina has. And yes, I'm very aware. I could just as easily be lying.
> 
> But are you dumb. Just cause a magician can do it 1 way, does it mean that it cannot be done another way? I don't think so.



And the insults start; the first sign that someone's arguments are not strong enough by themselves to make the case.

The very point I was making was that it _could_ be done another way. I wasn't attempting to prove a specific method was used, rather that your specific method ("psi") was not the only explaination. This to counter your claim that there was any proof at all. Unless you can discount slight of hand, you have proven nothing.

----------


## magicdood

Well, I do magic as well, hence the name, and I'm well aware of the ways it could be done in magic. I've even thought about including pk in my act, hehe. 

But that still means that the option of Psi is still open. But I still don't know why I'm sitting here debating with you. I understand why you might not believe this..I really do. However, I just did pk a little while ago, after I had gotten up, so it's hard for me not to be frustrated, hehe. .

----------


## TheUncanny

Nina is your hard evidence? She uses a trick table, which is why she only went as far as using a plexiglass box over the objects, and not a glass table (refer to youtube videos). Its quite obvious if you watch the videos. Thats no more "strict conditions" than ASmattman's videos. In fact, his were better done than Ninas. The fact is that no video is a sutiable surrigate for evidence, nor is any testimony.  There needs to be actual testing in actual labs by real and reliable sceintists, and it needs to be reviewed and repeated by other people as well.  

And about quantum physics, you seem to be forgetting something here. You act as if there are already dozens of examples of sceintists not being able to explain what seems to be telekinetic movement, and all sceince is waiting for is an explnation of an already recognized phenomenon.  Thats not true at all. The case is that no one has done TK under strict conditions yet, not that no one can _explain_ TK.   We are still waiting on someone to actually do TK under lab conditions.  Until that happens, there is no need to study quantum physics for a phenomenon that has yet to be observed in lab conditions.

----------


## Gumby123psi

I've done it infront of people. And Nina didnt use a trick table, because its STRICT TESTING CONDITIONS. They examine everything.

----------


## The Wig

> Nina Kuglagina has. And yes, I'm very aware. I could just as easily be lying.
> 
> But are you dumb. Just cause a magician can do it 1 way, does it mean that it cannot be done another way? I don't think so.



Seriously, stop spouting off that Nina girl. I already posted a quoted of her criticism. The experiments were done by the USSR who had a vested interested in at least _pretending_ like they had developed psychic powers.

I think what's important to remember is that saying "Psi will one day be accepted as fact just like LD was told it didn't exist and became science!" Just because it happened to LD doesn't mean it will to Psi, so get over it and stop using that argument. It's logically flawed. Just because you can _think_ up something that would be cool to exist, doesn't mean it ever can exist. Think: free-energy, cold fusion, fairies, unicorns, etc. It goes all over. I'm honestly really surprised someone hasn't shouted "conspiracy!" yet, so at least some of you have some common sense. 

The point is, all these websites claim so many members and yet none of them ever come forward to at least help the world. So that's why I call you guys selfish if you really _can_ do what you claim. Which you can't, but besides the point.

It also seems to me that psychic ability in the way a lot of people are claiming is incredibly useless were it to be real. A psi-wheel that is real small - use? No one ever seems to do anything bigger than handsize. So what you can move foil and a soda can. So can I - by picking it up. I'm probably faster too simple because you have to "warm-up". I was talking to some guy last night how he "played a game with numbers" and sent his friend numbers between 1 and 10 to his other telepathic friend and he was able to get 3 out of 6 right. That's a little bit above the random chance (28% I think?) but it's such a small set and people can develop patterns in their friend. Impress me and do 1 in a 100. Another useless tool since it's hardly accurate.

Stepping away from the hypothetical, we all still must ask: if psi really exists, why are all of you so hard-up in not using it to help people? I'm sure some kid in Nebraska needs his can moved over a few inches.

----------


## skysaw

> I'm sure some kid in Nebraska needs his can moved over a few inches.



LOL! That sounds like some kind of naughty euphemism.  ::lolxtreme::

----------


## magicdood

It helps you focus your mind, well lose you your mind and aids in self-realization. Now, I'm not saying that everyone uses for that, in fact most people don't, but that is what I am learning it for.

Also, jeez, I didn't think it up. I researched, practiced, and am succeeding. Is it that hard of a concept to understand? I did tk a few hours ago. Don't tell me it's not real...it's just funny.

----------


## The Wig

> It helps you focus your mind, well lose you your mind and aids in self-realization. Now, I'm not saying that everyone uses for that, in fact most people don't, but that is what I am learning it for.
> 
> Also, jeez, I didn't think it up. I researched, practiced, and am succeeding. Is it that hard of a concept to understand? I did tk a few hours ago. Don't tell me it's not real...it's just funny.



Okay, we've all been saying this: you saying that you can do TK doesn't make it real. Since you have been so far unwilling to to even attempt to prove to us in a somewhat tangible way, why do you bother trying to prove it to us by simply saying you can?

Almost forgot, TO ALL YOU TELEPATHISTS: post what I'm going to do today. There's one "major" event I'll be doing, so my day isn't cluttered up. I live in Northern California if it helps. If the power isn't capable of doing something easy like that, it's really kind of useless and shouldn't even be bothered with. If you want peace of mind and self-realization study Buddhism.

----------


## magicdood

I don't care if you believe me or not. Fine, I'll stop saying that. In what way do you want proof? A video...why...you would just find ways to call me a liar. So what do you want me to do?

----------


## The Wig

> I don't care if you believe me or not. Fine, I'll stop saying that. In what way do you want proof? A video...why...you would just find ways to call me a liar. So what do you want me to do?



Read my mind.

----------


## Gumby123psi

You guys are right about one thing. There arent many uses. That I can deal with, I dont care if its useless. I just like it.  ::-P:  Some of it is usefull though. Telepathy can be usefull, the military uses RV too.. And I communicate with my subconcious all the time and get usefull information. With energy manipulation I can use it to cool down, or heat up if I'm cold. TPS to get people to do what I want, though I never really learned TPS. See? Its not all that useless. The only useless one in my opinion is PK. Its still my favorite though. It helps with focus and concentration though, and patience. Meditation does wonders for you too. And btw Magicdood never learned scanning.

----------


## TheUniversalOne

> So while reading another person's thread, I found he said something that I have been thinking about for a while.  If it wasn't for the fact that I've had LDs before learning about them and what they were, I would have put it up there with all the other things that were not real, IE telekinesis, ghosts, OOBEs, psychics, bigfoot, and so on.  My main reasons for not believing in these things is that IF they were in fact real, then wouldn't there be a lot of science behind it and scientists researching it?  I mean really, if a person really could read another's mind or if someone really could move objects by will alone, wouldn't that be some big news?  Like Phenomenon with John Travolta, he really could do this and there was all kinds of scientists wanting his brain.  But unlike Phenomenon, there is no credible evidence for any of these things.  
> 
> That's where LDing comes in:  "waking up in your dream?   That's called being awake!" would have been something close to a typical response when telling someone about LDing.  How can we be AWAKE while ASLEEP?  It's a contradiction, yet most of you who are reading this can accomplish just that, as well as myself (kind of makes you feel like a superhero doesn't it?).  YET, there is very little research on it, just LaBerge and his team of whatever-nauts, which I'm sure have little standing in the world of scientists.   You tell people about your LDs and they look at you like you told them you were abducted by aliens and anal-probed.
> 
> Point being, if Lucid dreaming is really possible, then what about all the other sketchy things that have little to no research or scientific backing?  I've seen youtube videos of people supposedly moving objects with their minds, we've all probably seen bigfoot videos, and hell, there are a crap load of psychics who claim they can tell the future.  
> 
> I've always been a straight up realist, if I can't touch it or experience it then it's BS, so LDing has really got me rethinking things (except religion, I will eternally be agnostic).
> 
> What do you guys think?




It can't have any "scientific" backing because it can only be "backed" by experience, which in scientific terms is null and void. Even if you were an open-minded scientist and I told you I could project to your house and tell you the sweater you were wearing and so we decided to "experiment" with the idea, it's not something that could be published. There's no substance to it. People would just think I already knew or whatever. The scientists who probably are trying to research this, I know there must be some...I've read at least one book about astral projection where the author was one of the most skeptical scientists until experiencing AP.

I don't know how people can't believe in LDing because I've spoken to several people about it and almost all of them have informed me they have done it at least once, they just never knew what it was called. It's not really something to "believe" exists anyway, because everyone dreams it's just a different type of dream. Obviously, for someone who doesn't know what a LD is you can't say it's "waking up while dreaming" that's poor word choice. I describe it as being able to realize you are dreaming and then control your dream. You have to be a pretty boring, highly skeptical person to think that's not possible. I'd hate to live like that. 

As far as having to touch, experience to believe I think most of my experiences are from my willingness to investigate everything I hear about with an open mind. If I had laughed when my aunt told me she could project I wouldn't be here. I think anything is possible especially when you realize we're about as "real" as our thoughts.


Ps- I don't understand why it's hard to believe in telekinesis especially if you've taken physics. It's just the ablity to move energy. We are all energy bodies, why is it so impossible to be able to direct that energy at another object? On top of that "energy can't be destroyed" so what happens to us after we die? That energy doesn't just evaporate into space. It travels somewhere, and then taking into account that essentially all things are living...*mumbles into a never-ending rant*

Peace

 ::banana::

----------


## Marvo

Magicdood, record a video of it, that is more than 200x200 in size, it's not black/white crappy quality, it's not super close-up and unfocused, you have to do the act on a glass table/transparent something, glass box if possible, you have to get any kind of static-electricity out of your body, and we have to be able to see both of your hands.

You may never clip in the film, and only you may be nearby, during the filming.

----------


## magicdood

If you think I'm going to do that just to please you guys, you are out of your minds. I DON'T care what you guys think of me or believe in. It makes no difference to be honest.

Also, TheUniversalOne brought up a great point. Think of the universe as a full ocean, and you are just 1 drop of water in that ocean...except the ocean is energy. So how do you tell who is who? You cannot. We are all one, all one energy field, my energy can affect your energy since it's the same. So to move in object, my energy affects the objects energy field. And for that matter, you do telekinesis when you move a pencil with your finger. Your atoms, MADE OF ENERGY in your hand, moves the atoms MADE OF ENERGY of the pencil. Just with telekinesis, you do this without the physical touch. But you are still using your mind to move energy, just like using your mind to move your arm and finger. Credit To NI for those examples.

So, I hope that clears a few things up!

----------


## Gumby123psi

> Magicdood, record a video of it, that is more than 200x200 in size, it's not black/white crappy quality, it's not super close-up and unfocused, you have to do the act on a glass table/transparent something, glass box if possible, you have to get any kind of static-electricity out of your body, and we have to be able to see both of your hands.
> 
> You may never clip in the film, and only you may be nearby, during the filming.



Maybe we dont have cameras that good. Ever think of that? And there HAVE been videos like that. My camera can go for like 30 seconds and you have to hold the button all the time and its super dark. And even if we did make a video like that. There is no way to prove it through a video. Theres a million ways to fake it. There is NO WAY to possibly convince you guys. You just have to experience it for yourselfves, theres no other way IMO. And you might wanna read this from NI's Training Manual found here: http://psipog.net/art-nis-tk-training-manual.html

"Let's start with the most simple. I don't think it's a big secret and probably every physics teacher will confirm that we all are made of the same stuff: atoms. And all atoms are made of energy. They only differ from each other in size. So basically everything around us and we ourselves are pure energy. You can imagine the whole universe as a lake of energy and yourself as a drop of water in it. But how can you distinguish where that drop starts and where it ends? You are right. You can't. Separation is just an illusion. The computer in front of you is a part of your own energy field as well as you are a part of its energy field. You don't end at your skin. And this leads us to the conclusion that you are one with all the things around you (Screams of horror ).

Separation is a useful illusion. Mankind would never progress if we thought that one being is a part of another being and we all are one. That would be a paradox for the competition between the human beings and therefore a break for the whole evolution.

In many cases it's very useful to think about objects as separate things. In other cases, like in telekinesis, it's necessary to keep in mind that the psiwheel in front of you lies in your own energy field and therefore it can be affected by your energy. You don't believe it? Now touch that psiwheel with your finger. Did it move? Of course it did, because you used your energy in form of atoms of your finger to accelerate the molecules of the paper. Clever, huh?

But even if you don't use your finger, it's possible through some mental processes to alter the state of your energy field and therefore to influence the paper on pin that lies inside of this field. It's possible to make objects move without direct physical contact. But at the end of the day it's still being affected by physical forces. They are just not present as the physical matter, atoms. These forces are based only on the energy. Atoms, the matter, are just a state of the energy, according to my school's technical library. Now that only means that energy doesn't have to be "visible" or "touchable" and it means that it's not only inside of yourself, but also lies around yourself.

Did you ever think why gravitation exists? Nobody can explain why two objects attract each other. Think about it. According to astrophysics, even an object that lies thousands of light years away from you influences you in a very small way with its gravitational field. A gravitational field is an example of an energy field that never fades. It gets weaker but it never disappears completely. And that's another important principle: The Chaos Theory. The world is based on causes and consequences.

You can find a math book about the Chaos Theory. The Chaos Theory says that no matter how small the cause may be, it will affect the whole system, the whole universe. Imagine a butterfly flying somewhere over India. The theory says that even this small movement may and does influence in a very small way the weather in United States. No matter what you do and how small and unimportant your actual actions are, they do change the whole universe. No matter how small the mental process in your head might seem, it does alter, in one way or another, the paper on pin in front of you.

The stronger that mental process is the more effect you'll see.

So how can a simple mental process, twitches of the nervous system, be strong enough to move an object outside the physical body?

I can't answer that question. But if you think for example about the following situation it might show you a possible answer.

Imagine yourself meditating and suddenly something explodes in front of your window. In the same moment your meditation is over. You get up and run away to see what's going on. It happened because the energy provided by the explosion was stronger than the energy invested in your meditation.

Now imagine yourself meditating very deeply. Someone outside calls your name, but you don't realize it. Your body still hears it physically, but you don't realize it and keep meditating. This time the energy invested in your meditation was stronger than the energy used to call your name.

Maybe it's just a crappy theory, but I'm 100&#37; sure it's true. Energy flows where attention goes. Just think of playing pool / billiards. You shoot one of those balls and you miss. Now if you pay your whole attention and even visualize it happening you are most likely to succeed.

The more attention and concentration you put forth, the more energy is provided to move the object in front of you.
"

Now, theres no arguing with that. If all thats true, wich it is, then its technically possible. Science says so. SCIENCE says that no matter how small the mental process, it affects the entire system in some way. When we do Telekinesis, we have to think some mental process and it affects objects. You cant argue with that.

----------


## magicdood

Yes, I do have a video! It's pretty good, but there are of course ways to fake any video. I'm not just gonna make a video so it can be ridiculed by you guys!

And btw Gumby, I love that part of the article!

----------


## Identity X

I don't quite see how you relate bullshit like telekinesis, bigfoot and ESP with lucid dreaming. The thinks you mention pertain to the environment around us - or "exotic" was of communicating with other individuals. Lucid dreaming is a strictly internal, neurological thing. There's no outward "claim" related to lucid dreaming - whereas telekinesis would require "extra" physics or "superpowers" if it were to exist, lucid dreaming does not require this.

----------


## Gumby123psi

And you ignore all that I said. If we're gonna argue, please. Get to everything I say and prove it wrong. I do it to the things you say, you do it back. And I never related PK to LDing. I love to argue by the way, I'm having fun.

----------


## magicdood

I think he was talking about the first post? But maybe not. Anyways, Telekinesis isn't bullshit, but I know that won't get through your thick skull.  ::o:  :p

----------


## Identity X

> I think he was talking about the first post? But maybe not. Anyways, Telekinesis isn't bullshit, but I know that won't get through your thick skull.  :p



Yes it was a misapplication of "Quick reply" (which does the opposite of what you'd expect) coupled with the newness to Opera.

No comment on the latter portion of the post. Oh go on, just one: *bullshit* :p.

My skull is adequately thick. After all, I needn't worry about some telekinetic super hero exploding my head, because, you know that isn't possible. Did you know that?

----------


## TheUniversalOne

Still on TK are we? This might as be a whether god exists or not thread...

 ::banana::

----------


## Identity X

> So I might levitate a pencil in front of you, but you would just see it laying on the ground cause you can't comprehend that possibility. Sounds pretty reasonable of a theory to me.



Apologies magicdood for being lazy again, but here's my breakdown on this matter:

Propose there is one universe A in which sane person S picks up a pencil with his hand, which reasonable person R sees. He observes this event, because he can comprehend this possibility. The event is added to the universe, and since all observers S and R of the event see the same outcome, there is no contradiction. It is an objective event.

Now suppose telekinetic person T lifts the pencil with their mind, with R and S watching. The pencil is lifted in Ts universe. But in R and Ss universe, the pencil sits there, as it should, and T looks like a wally.

Now do we have two universes? Two seperate observations? Now suppose the pencil accidently stabs R in the eye, causing death. But S cannot see this, because he cannot comprehend that possibility, and the pencil is still on the table. Is R dead? Is he alive, because like S he could not comprehend the possibility of the pencil stabbing him in the eye? The two observations have become unresolvable. Aren't these worrying possibilities?

Occam would have a hissy fit. Out of interest, have you ever shown your great power to someone who has believed you - been able to comprehend this reality (which as above, shall become completely irrelevant - inaccessable even - to any outside observer, for fear of pencil-death). Did they see the object move. Or have everyone seen nothing because they "can't comprehend that possibility"?

Seems like your definition of telekinesis is too close to hallucination for your own comfort.

----------


## Gumby123psi

No, theres no seperate realities or anything. If it moves, it moves. None of that shit. And you ignored my entire post earlier.

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## magicdood

Hehe, definitely a good break down there Identity X. You've got me thinking. However, I have done this to others and they all saw it move. Two friends, at 1 time, and a parent at a latter time.

I don't know, you make me wonder about that theory..however, it has no bearing on my views of telekinesis. 

So in answer, yes, I've shown it to people who didn't originally believe...so I guess that theory is null and void?

Also, can a quick reply reply right after someone's post? or is there any way to do that? I'm pretty sure there isn't, but it would be cool, hehe.

----------


## The Wig

> Ps- I don't understand why it's hard to believe in telekinesis especially if you've taken physics. It's just the ablity to move energy. We are all energy bodies, why is it so impossible to be able to direct that energy at another object? On top of that "energy can't be destroyed" so what happens to us after we die? That energy doesn't just evaporate into space. It travels somewhere, and then taking into account that essentially all things are living...*mumbles into a never-ending rant*
> 
> Peace



No, we're matter bodies, not energy bodies initially. When we die what's left is matter, not energy so all the atoms break apart and float...and stuff. 

Once again, matter is not energy. We are made up of matter, not energy although at some times we produce energy. 





> I think he was talking about the first post? But maybe not. Anyways, Telekinesis isn't bullshit, but I know that won't get through your thick skull.  :p



Stop going from trying to talk sense into us into insulting us. 





> No, theres no seperate realities or anything. If it moves, it moves. None of that shit. And you ignored my entire post earlier.



I love how you believe in Psi and that crap but don't believe in alternate universes...WHICH HAS A BASIS IN SCIENCE! Repeat with me: quantum mechanics.



Does any other psychic have stuff to add or is it all just "I believe in psychics 'cause I can do it and I don't care who believes me!"?

----------


## Umbrella

I won't pretend to have read this entire thread, but after reading the first page (took me long enough), I noticed how some of the people were saying they don't understand why lucid dreaming would be comparable to things like telepathy and future telling, while many others thought it made perfect sense to compare them.

I, personally, am one of the people who never once considered comparing lucid dreams to these so called psychic phenomena, and among all the people I've told about lucid dreaming, I'm pretty sure there was no one who didn't believe what I was telling them, was possible.
However, hardly any of these people were so enthusiastic about it that they were actually willing to keep a dream journal or something. This also depends on how much I explain to someone. Generally, people become more interested, the more I talk about it.

Now my cousin, who's just as much into lucid dreaming as I am, told some people too, nearly everyone he told about lucid dreaming reacted - you might have seen it coming - at least a little bit like he was crazy. This got to a point where he didn't want to tell people about it anymore.

This example, along with the different views in this thread, indicate that it greatly differs from person to person. The question is: is this because of the person who's giving the information or because of the one who's receiving it? In other words: did I just explain things differently than my cousin did, making it easier for people to believe what they were hearing? Or are the people he told relatively closed minded or something.

I think it's mostly about the way you explain the whole concept to someone. Given the fact that We've both been getting the same kind of reaction over and over with no (or in my cousin's case maybe a few) exceptions. Plus, I've talked about it to a lot of different people that I know from a lot of different perspectives (i.e. friends, family, neighbours, people I met on vacation, people online, etc.). It's hard to believe that they're all the same kind of people.

Now then, my claim here is this: 
Those oneironauts (I could just say "lucid dreamers" but it's such a cool word. It deserves to be used) who would compare lucid dreams to psychic phenomena (even when they believe in the former and not in the latter) are the ones who can't get the people around them to believe their lucid dreaming tales, because they talk about it as if it were something otherworldly. 
I would imagine someone like this answering the question "what is a lucid dream" by saying something like: a dream where you can control everything and fly through the sky and blow people up and have sex with your favorite celebrity.

The ones who don't see the logic in this comparison, however would give an answer to that same question, which is closer to the exact definition: a dream in which you know that you are dreaming. Think about it for a second. Doesn't that sound much easier to believe? Doesn't sound like a psychic phenomenon at all, right?

There you have it. My personal explanation on why the existence of lucid dreaming is in no way connected to whether or not future telling is real. Of course, I probably could've written it down in a post of two paragraphs, but It's not like I have anything better to do. Besides, long posts make you look smart. I'd just like to apologize to those who read the whole thing.  :wink2:

----------


## The Wig

> I won't pretend to have read this entire thread, but after reading the first page (took me long enough), I noticed how some of the people were saying they don't understand why lucid dreaming would be comparable to things like telepathy and future telling, while many others thought it made perfect sense to compare them.
> 
> I, personally, am one of the people who never once considered comparing lucid dreams to these so called psychic phenomena, and among all the people I've told about lucid dreaming, I'm pretty sure there was no one who didn't believe what I was telling them, was possible.
> However, hardly any of these people were so enthusiastic about it that they were actually willing to keep a dream journal or something. This also depends on how much I explain to someone. Generally, people become more interested, the more I talk about it.
> 
> Now my cousin, who's just as much into lucid dreaming as I am, told some people too, nearly everyone he told about lucid dreaming reacted - you might have seen it coming - at least a little bit like he was crazy. This got to a point where he didn't want to tell people about it anymore.
> 
> This example, along with the different views in this thread, indicate that it greatly differs from person to person. The question is: is this because of the person who's giving the information or because of the one who's receiving it? In other words: did I just explain things differently than my cousin did, making it easier for people to believe what they were hearing? Or are the people he told relatively closed minded or something.
> 
> ...



No apologies needed, nice post. I agree completely. It's all in the presentation. I tend to just use "a dream where you know you're dreaming" at first and expand later on.

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## magicdood

No, we're matter bodies, not energy bodies initially. When we die what's left is matter, not energy so all the atoms break apart and float...and stuff. 

Once again, matter is not energy. We are made up of matter, not energy although at some times we produce energy. 
*
We are energy. Matter is made up of and is energy. That is believed by scientist. WE ARE ENERGY. Proven scientifically.* 


Stop going from trying to talk sense into us into insulting us.

*Obviously it was a joke. Identity X caught it...jeez lighten up. You are too serious.
*

And also, WIG, just for the Record, everyone can do these things. And also, I'm being 100&#37; honest when I say I don't mind that you do not believe me. Do you see me freaking out here? I'm not. It doesn't bother me. The fact is, I've proved it to myself. You telling me that it is not real does nothing.

----------


## The Wig

> No, we're matter bodies, not energy bodies initially. When we die what's left is matter, not energy so all the atoms break apart and float...and stuff. 
> 
> Once again, matter is not energy. We are made up of matter, not energy although at some times we produce energy. 
> *
> We are energy. Matter is made up of and is energy. That is believed by scientist. WE ARE ENERGY. Proven scientifically.* 
> 
> 
> Stop going from trying to talk sense into us into insulting us.
> 
> ...




MATTER IS NOT ENERGY. If matter was energy, why would there have been a huge fuss when it was found out a matter -> energy conversion is possible?  Here:

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~acarpi/NSC/2-matter.htm

MATTER IS NOT ENERGY once again. Don't even go there, because this is physics and you obviously know nothing of it. 

As for "it not bothering you", a few posts back you were 100% ready to prove to me you are psychic and even asked what you could do to prove it...so don't pull that.

----------


## magicdood

I wasn't asking in the sense of OMG I WANNA PROVE THIS TO YOU!!!!111ONE

But more like, Gosh, nothing is gonna prove this to him. I wonder what would even do it.

See the difference?

----------


## TheUniversalOne

> No, we're matter bodies, not energy bodies initially. When we die what's left is matter, not energy so all the atoms break apart and float...and stuff. 
> 
> Once again, matter is not energy. We are made up of matter, not energy although at some times we produce energy. 
> 
> 
> 
> Stop going from trying to talk sense into us into insulting us. 
> 
> 
> ...




We're definitely energy bodies.

*And I refuse to prove it as all the information in the world is avaliable at google.com

----------


## magicdood

BAM- Couldn't agree more! We are most definitely made of energy, just like everything else.

----------


## The Wig

> We're definitely energy bodies.
> 
> *And I refuse to prove it as all the information in the world is avaliable at google.com



Refusing to prove something is practically equivalent to it not being true. You can't just make claims and not attempt to back it up. So prove it.

As for magicdood, don't know what you're "BAM"ing about - you just claimed matter was the same exact thing as energy. o_O

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## magicdood

They are made up of the same things so therefore we are energy. 

And no, refusing to back something up is not the same as it being false. It's the same as being fucking annoyed at people who can't do some simple research. If you did, you would understand that what THEuniversalone said is true.

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## The Wig

> They are made up of the same things so therefore we are energy. 
> 
> And no, refusing to back something up is not the same as it being false. It's the same as being fucking annoyed at people who can't do some simple research. If you did, you would understand that what THEuniversalone said is true.



Wait, what? You just sent my brain through a twist. Matter and energy are not the same damn thing. Did you even read my link or are you just blindly grasping for words? 

And yes, it pretty much is. Why would anyone believe anyone otherwise?

----------


## skysaw

> And also, I'm being 100% honest when I say I don't mind that you do not believe me. Do you see me freaking out here? I'm not. It doesn't bother me. The fact is, I've proved it to myself. You telling me that it is not real does nothing.







> And no, refusing to back something up is not the same as it being false. It's the same as being fucking annoyed at people who can't do some simple research.



Well that didn't last long.  ::hrm::

----------


## magicdood

Because there is plenty of valid information that a little research could produce. 

And also, no I didn't read that link, and yep, pretty much blindly grasping for words. Congrats on the analysis.

----------


## The Wig

> Because there is plenty of valid information that a little research could produce. 
> 
> And also, no I didn't read that link, and yep, pretty much blindly grasping for words. Congrats on the analysis.



If you read the link you'd see that matter is not energy. This isn't hard to grasp, but for some...I guess it is.

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## magicdood

Hehe, and telekinesis isn't hard to grasp, but for some, I guess it is.

----------


## The Wig

> Hehe, and telekinesis isn't hard to grasp, but for some, I guess it is.



The thing is, the fact that matter is not energy is proven. Telekinesis isn't and it would take many years of study and corroboration to do so. I'm perfectly justified in not believing in something that is not proven. You are not justified in disbelieving in a proven thing.

----------


## magicdood

Good point TheWig. 

The point remains, however, that we are made up of energy. Matter is made up of energy.

----------


## Gumby123psi

EVERYTHING is made of energy. Even our thoughts. Our thoughts take up electricity from our brain.

----------


## The Wig

> Good point TheWig. 
> 
> The point remains, however, that we are made up of energy. Matter is made up of energy.



Matter isn't made up of energy.

----------


## Mocari

All we see is that matter is made up of an incredible amount of nothing. It's basically nonexistent as far as we know.

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## magicdood

Oh yes it is. Matter is most certainly made up of energy. Atoms are energy...well space..and energy to clarify. Yes, we are energy. Do some research there bud.

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## The Wig

> Oh yes it is. Matter is most certainly made up of energy. Atoms are energy...well space..and energy to clarify. Yes, we are energy. Do some research there bud.



Support your claim or don't bother posting it. I've supported mine yet you are steadfast in just either in posting  (thusfar) unsubstantiated claims.

----------


## Oneironaught

Holy crap, 230 posts in two days? and counting? I'll confess right up front that I did not read anything but the first two posts. I'll comment on them.





> That's where LDing comes in: "waking up in your dream? That's called being awake!"
> 
> What do you guys think?



While "awake in one's dreams" makes an attractive marketing slogan, it's somewhat of a misnomer. Lucid dreaming is being conscious of the reality that one is dreaming during the dream state. Being awake means to not be asleep.

As most people are aware, you can be wide awake yet not be conscious of what's going on around you. So "conscious" and "awake" are not the same thing and shouldn't be confused with each other. They often go hand and hand but they are different.





> Lucid-dreaming is not to be awake when you sleep, but to be aware when you dream.
> 
> The difference? I can say, that I'm always aware when I dream, I'm in complete control of my dream-body, I just rarely realise that I'm in a dream. Point being, if you can think you are awake in a dream (which we do most of them time), then can't you also think that you're dreaming?
> 
> Unlike stuff like telekenisis and all that other stuff, the science and explenations behind lucid dreaming makes perfect sense.



Just a nod of agreement. Dreaming is another state of awareness, that's all. Awareness is a higher form of consciousness.

----------


## Chaos Theory

Actually both Japanese and Chinese beliefs state that " The human body has an energy known as " Chi, Qi, or Ki ". 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi

If you go down further you will also see some martial arts it is used in.

----------


## magicdood

Yep...martial arts use Chi and make energy balls all the time. It's an easy practice, used a lot of the time as is just considered normal.

----------


## skysaw

It's all making sense to me now. I didn't realize we were talking about anime.

----------


## The Wig

> Actually both Japanese and Chinese beliefs state that " The human body has an energy known as " Chi, Qi, or Ki ". 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
> 
> If you go down further you will also see some martial arts it is used in.



There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to begin.

----------


## magicdood

Haha Skysaw. Pretty clever..

----------


## Needcatscan

> Holy crap, 230 posts in two days? and counting? I'll confess right up front that I did not read anything but the first two posts. I'll comment on them.
> 
> 
> While "awake in one's dreams" makes an attractive marketing slogan, it's somewhat of a misnomer. Lucid dreaming is being conscious of the reality that one is dreaming during the dream state. Being awake means to not be asleep.
> 
> As most people are aware, you can be wide awake yet not be conscious of what's going on around you. So "conscious" and "awake" are not the same thing and shouldn't be confused with each other. They often go hand and hand but they are different.
> 
> 
> Just a nod of agreement. Dreaming is another state of awareness, that's all. Awareness is a higher form of consciousness.




Okay, getting tired of people saying "you don't wake up in your dream, you're just aware your dreaming".  Yeah, thanks guys, I do know what LDing is.  My point is when you explain it to other people, in my case, most of them don't understand just "you are aware you're dreaming."  You have to be more extreme before they really grasp what LDing is, hence why I put it that way.

And as far as the the rest of it goes, The Wig and MagicDood, you guys wanna get a room and duke it out?

Almost 250 posts in two days, dude, I rule!  ::D:  ::D:  ::D:

----------


## Oneironaught

> Okay, getting tired of people saying "you don't wake up in your dream, you're just aware your dreaming". Yeah, thanks guys, I do know what LDing is.



Well ok then  ::rolleyes::

----------


## TheUniversalOne

Ugh matter is just a term. Energy goes deeper then that. 


"Subatomic particles are simply energy packets. You are a cluster of energy, so is everything else. A cluster of energy is always in motion, moving and changing to form new configuration at every moment. The table that is in your dining room is not as solid as it appears to be. On a highly magnified level, you would realize that it is in constant flux, “losing” and “gaining” billions of energy packets, but intelligently maintaining the overall “look” of a table. There is a consciousness that keeps the energy in that particular form."

I'm sorry if the schools you have been to have only discussed matter in terms of what makes a body.

----------


## Chaos Theory

> I don't see how that answers my question Chaos, and in case you try the ol' of "your ignorant because you wont even try it, thus nothing you say has any merit" fallacy, remember that I have actually tried this (not those six lessons, mind you) and even if i hadn't, my points are still valid. I actually got it to move a few times. But as soon as the glass went over the setup, nada, even after much practice. And since videos of covered psi wheel can and are faked on a regular basis, such examples are moot. And thats my TK experience in a nut shell
> 
> 
> Now here's the problem in a nutshell, seeing as its rather difficult to stress this point:
> 
> -Thousands of people claim they can perform telekinsis at will.
> -Many dedicate their time to promoting and defending TK.
> -Of these people, most are bothered by the fact that TK is not recognized as a legitimate phenomenon, especially in the eyes of sceince.
> -Thousands of sceintists are willing to test telekinesis under sceintific conditions.
> ...



 
I've never stated that you were ignorant nor do I call anyone by that even if they do not try it. I simply say say believe what you want. To tell you the truth I had a hard time learning Psi myself. In fact I used to practice it a few years ago. I began to gain interest as I became more skilled with it but to my dismay from a short week break I lost everythat that I had done so just quit.

And the Wig what is the matter with that? 

Actually the Energy ball is part of  traditional Ki excercise and usually not used in martial arts. 

And to the oblivious one who stated something about Anime, I suggest looking up the term as I have said in previous posts, Rad ki. That is the Anime form of the Traditional Chi excercises ( Which of course you probably know nothing about considering you brought up anime. )

----------


## The Wig

> Ugh matter is just a term. Energy goes deeper then that. 
> 
> 
> "Subatomic particles are simply energy packets. You are a cluster of energy, so is everything else. A cluster of energy is always in motion, moving and changing to form new configuration at every moment. The table that is in your dining room is not as solid as it appears to be. On a highly magnified level, you would realize that it is in constant flux, losing and gaining billions of energy packets, but intelligently maintaining the overall look of a table. There is a consciousness that keeps the energy in that particular form."
> 
> I'm sorry if the schools you have been to have only discussed matter in terms of what makes a body.



Energy is just a term if you wanna go that far.

There is no consciousness in energy. That's foolish. Molecules are stuck together and the "energy" as you put it (matter) is confined to the space where it is placed.

----------


## TheUniversalOne

> Energy is just a term if you wanna go that far.
> 
> There is no consciousness in energy. That's foolish. Molecules are stuck together and the "energy" as you put it (matter) is confined to the space where it is placed.



 ::rolleyes:: 

Lol I'm done.

Goodnight.

----------


## The Wig

> Lol I'm done.
> 
> Goodnight.



Trust me, I know what you're saying. I know exactly what you mean and I know it's true. What I'm saying it's it's not random chance those atoms are staying together in the form of a table in the exact same position as always. Furthermore, I'm saying while the atoms and matter may have energy, they are not one and the same.

----------


## trigotron

Ok, from what i've read this topic mainly centers around the "oogy boogy" aspect of lucid dreaming and i suggest it should be moved to the beyond dreaming forum.  Anyway, as far as psychic stuff you see on the internet, it is completely fake, there is no conclusive proof of any human potential for telekinesis or any other extracerebral activity.  The US government conducted a lot of tests on this stuff, one of the most well known of these originated in nazi germany where (now i'm getting into speculative stuff) it is rumored a number of scientists were conducting research on reading people's thoughts (obviously they didn't turn any results).  The US recovered a few of these scientists in "operation paperclip" and it is rumored they continued research covertly with a few of these scientists on the "stargate project" (also didn't yield any results, you can look both of these up on wikipedia as they are both documented).  I'm not going to say that there can never be extracerebral activity possible under any circumstance, however, I don't think this world has seen any of it yet, we don't use 10&#37; of our brains, we only use 10% at any given instant, we use 100% of our total brain mass in a given week, genetically we were not designed for telekinesis, our brains are the exact size we use and nothing more, there is also no standard scientific explanation for psychic stuff (eg. electromagnetics/electromagnetic waves... etc), that's why it's very hard to prove and it gets into the "oogy boogy" range.

EDIT: I see people talking about "energy doing stuff".  This is complete academic BS, "energy" does not exist, there is no such thing as generic energy, there is kinetic energy and potential energy, period.  Electrical energy is just a derivitave of potential energy, even the strings in string theory are still a derivative of electrical energy, there is conservation of energy.  The average human body contains aproximatly 1.2 volts in (indirect) electrical charge through ion interactions at any given time, during a seisure (where all nerves release energy) this can jump to over 10 volts, however for this energy to do anything to the world around it, there would need to exist a sort of biological electrical transformer, the existance of such in the human body is inconclusive, 10 volts is not enough to send a form of directed energy, period.  Even though the body contains a remarkable amount of energy in storage (14 Megajoules per pound of fat) and is remarkably efficient at converting food to energy, 10 volts, even if it was concentrated on one point couldn't even pierce the skin, let alone create a field large enough to reach across the earth (remote viewing) or lift objects (telekinesis), or any other remarkable stuff... humans simply aren't built for it.  The closest thing we have on this planet to "telepathy" is the electric eel.





> All we see is that matter is made up of an incredible amount of nothing. It's basically nonexistent as far as we know.



EDIT 2: For the record, everything is made of energy (according to string theory), however matter (at least solid matter) is not as much "empty space" as one might think, the electrons outside of a nucleus occupy space, because of the continuous charge contour they create.

----------


## The Wig

> Ok, from what i've read this topic mainly centers around the "oogy boogy" aspect of lucid dreaming and i suggest it should be moved to the beyond dreaming forum.  Anyway, as far as psychic stuff you see on the internet, it is completely fake, there is no conclusive proof of any human potential for telekinesis or any other extracerebral activity.  The US government conducted a lot of tests on this stuff, one of the most well known of these originated in nazi germany where (now i'm getting into speculative stuff) it is rumored a number of scientists were conducting research on reading people's thoughts (obviously they didn't turn any results).  The US recovered a few of these scientists in "operation paperclip" and it is rumored they continued research covertly with a few of these scientists on the "stargate project" (also didn't yield any results, you can look both of these up on wikipedia as they are both documented).  I'm not going to say that there can never be extracerebral activity possible under any circumstance, however, I don't think this world has seen any of it yet, we don't use 10% of our brains, we only use 10% at any given instant, we use 100% of our total brain mass in a given week, genetically we were not designed for telekinesis, our brains are the exact size we use and nothing more, there is also no standard scientific explanation for psychic stuff (eg. electromagnetics/electromagnetic waves... etc), that's why it's very hard to prove and it gets into the "oogy boogy" range.
> 
> EDIT: I see people talking about "energy doing stuff".  This is complete academic BS, "energy" does not exist, there is no such thing as generic energy, there is kinetic energy and potential energy, period.  Electrical energy is just a derivitave of potential energy, even the strings in string theory are still a derivative of electrical energy, there is conservation of energy.  The average human body contains aproximatly 1.2 volts in (indirect) electrical charge through ion interactions at any given time, during a seisure (where all nerves release energy) this can jump to over 10 volts, however for this energy to do anything to the world around it, there would need to exist a sort of biological electrical transformer, the existance of such in the human body is inconclusive, 10 volts is not enough to send a form of directed energy, period.  Even though the body contains a remarkable amount of energy in storage (14 Megajoules per pound of fat) and is remarkably efficient at converting food to energy, 10 volts, even if it was concentrated on one point couldn't even pierce the skin, let alone create a field large enough to reach across the earth (remote viewing) or lift objects (telekinesis), or any other remarkable stuff... humans simply aren't built for it.  The closest thing we have on this planet to "telepathy" is the electric eel.
> 
> 
> EDIT 2: For the record, everything is made of energy (according to string theory), however matter (at least solid matter) is not as much "empty space" as one might think, the electrons outside of a nucleus occupy space, because of the continuous charge contour they create.



Continuing on the brain thing - apparently, if you ever used 100% of your brain power at a time you'd have a seizure an die. The neurons can't fire all at once or you're going to have a seizure. Hence, epileptics.

----------


## Identity X

> Oh yes it is. Matter is most certainly made up of energy. Atoms are energy...well space..and energy to clarify. Yes, we are energy. Do some research there bud.



Maybe a late reply but:

Scientists around the world just WISH that that were true. But it isn't. The fact that matter _ISN'T_ energy is one of the hardest problems in physics, once which facilitates exotic theories such as the idea of the massive Higgs boson in order to explain _mass_.

Matter and energy are indeed convertable both ways, but this doesn't mean they are _the same_. Easy mistake to make, I don't think you're stupid for it. But it is a mistake nonetheless.

----------


## Lucidor

I really don't see how this got into a discussion whether mass and energy are interchangeable and what not.. All things are made up from strings that vibrate. And there is a TOE!!

----------


## skysaw

> And to the oblivious one who stated something about Anime, I suggest looking up the term as I have said in previous posts, Rad ki. That is the Anime form of the Traditional Chi excercises ( Which of course you probably know nothing about considering you brought up anime. )



The word "oblivious" might also be applied to the person who was so focused on his own little world that he missed that the anime reference was nothing more than a humorous jab. Even a subsequent post saying "Haha... pretty clever" didn't clue this person in.  :Boggle:

----------


## magicdood

Trigoton- There is most certainly generic energy, whatever you may call it. Chi, qi, ki....or even psi.

It is used in Martial Arts around would.

----------


## Identity X

> Trigoton- There is most certainly generic energy, whatever you may call it. Chi, qi, ki....or even psi.
> 
> It is used in Martial Arts around would.



By _used_ what do you mean? Martial arts are just trained movements, meditation, and fighting moves, it is of my opinion that _ki_ is just a method of disciplining the student. There is no objective observable _ki_ in the physical world; believe what you will in your tai chi class or whatever, but such ideas have no support in the real world.

Trigotron was speaking of well-known, observable forces and phenomena. Ki does not "most certainly" exist; I'm not saying it doesn't, but _it is not observed_.

----------


## magicdood

I was talking about how martial arts classes make "Chi Balls" and it is a normal practice.

Yes, you are correct that it is not supported in "the real world" but it does happen.

----------


## Oneironaught

> I was talking about how martial arts classes make "Chi Balls" and it is a normal practice.
> 
> Yes, you are correct that it is not supported in "the real world" but it does happen.



I think you're confusing energy with intentional mental focus. Those energy balls you speak of aren't "energy". They are a mental exercise in concentration and focus of attention. The practitioners of such things do indeed visualise it as being an actual force but - in that aspect - it's not much different from hypnosis. It's merely a visualization technique.

----------


## magicdood

No, it is most definitely a ball of energy. There can be two different forms of practice occurring, but I am quite positive of the one I am talking about, however, I can assume that what you are talking about happens as well.

----------


## Marvo

> We are energy. Matter is made up of and is energy. That is believed by scientist. WE ARE ENERGY. Proven scientifically. [/B]




You got it wrong.


An atom, is a construction of 2 different particles, neutrons and protons. They stick together in the core. Around the atom, electrons are flying, at enourmous speed.

Now, if we break down an atom, we get neutrons, protons and electrons. These truly are energy, but if we go deeper, we find Hadrons, they are made of Quarks and Gluons. There is also Lepton, they form the electrons. 

Leptons and Quarks are the basic elementar particles of the universe. They are what everything is made of, supported by the 4 main forces, Electromagnetism, Weak Interaction, Strong Interaction and Gravity.


This is what the universe consists of. All and everything is made of Quarks, Leptons and gluones (to keep stuff together).

And these are not energy, they are raw matter.

----------


## Phydeaux_3

I compare LDing to Magic Eye art. Either you've seen it for yourself and you _know_ it's real or you haven't and you secretly suspect that everyone is just trying to pull a fast one on you, or pretending to see the image. Like the kid in school who "got high" when you smoked him the tea leaves.



I've got a heart on for you.

----------


## Chaos Theory

> The word "oblivious" might also be applied to the person who was so focused on his own little world that he missed that the anime reference was nothing more than a humorous jab. Even a subsequent post saying "Haha... pretty clever" didn't clue this person in.



Well I did not know that was a humorous Jab, I apologize, just I've gotten remarks like that for a few years now and after a while you don't consider it a joke anymore  ::?: .

----------


## The Wig

> Maybe a late reply but:
> 
> Scientists around the world just WISH that that were true. But it isn't. The fact that matter _ISN'T_ energy is one of the hardest problems in physics, once which facilitates exotic theories such as the idea of the massive Higgs boson in order to explain _mass_.
> 
> Matter and energy are indeed convertable both ways, but this doesn't mean they are _the same_. Easy mistake to make, I don't think you're stupid for it. But it is a mistake nonetheless.



I've been saying this since he brought it up, he's not going to get it. His psychic powers are getting in the way  ::rolleyes:: 

Also, I'm glad some other people came in here with some scientific backing for why matter is not energy. Maybe it _will_ help.

----------


## Identity X

> You got it wrong.
> 
> 
> An atom, is a construction of 2 different particles, neutrons and protons. They stick together in the core. Around the atom, electrons are flying, at enourmous speed.
> 
> Now, if we break down an atom, we get neutrons, protons and electrons. These truly are energy, but if we go deeper, we find Hadrons, they are made of Quarks and Gluons. There is also Lepton, they form the electrons. 
> 
> Leptons and Quarks are the basic elementar particles of the universe. They are what everything is made of, supported by the 4 main forces, Electromagnetism, Weak Interaction, Strong Interaction and Gravity.
> 
> ...



You are incorrect, but you mean well. Your definition is the gluon is "layman's" at its best - gravity and electromagnetism of course "keep stuff together" as well. And you forgot the other gauge bosons (*photons* being the most obvious of course!). We don't really need a re-iteration of the Standard Model anyway, but hey! I linked it anyway.

And there is energy in the universe? How can there not be.

And I still hold firm to the idea of ki as a disciplinary and visualisation exercise only. We don't see martial artists flinging fireballs around, at least outide of _Street Fighter_.

_Hadoken!_

----------


## Marvo

Yeah, I forgot about the photons, that's true.

----------


## magicdood

> I compare LDing to Magic Eye art. Either you've seen it for yourself and you _know_ it's real or you haven't and you secretly suspect that everyone is just trying to pull a fast one on you, or pretending to see the image. Like the kid in school who "got high" when you smoked him the tea leaves.
> 
> 
> 
> I've got a heart on for you.



I suspect it's kind of like that with Pk. Just everyone is more skeptical!  :wink2:

----------


## Oneironaught

> I suspect it's kind of like that with Pk. Just everyone is more skeptical!



But at least the 3D images can be _proven_ to anyone. With the right viewer, even those who can't "get it" can be made to easily see what's there.

Without proof you only have theory as far as anyone else is concerned.

----------


## trigotron

Ah, identity X, my hero.  Thank you for fielding some of this stuff, you clearly have more knowledge about particle physics than i do.  





> Trigoton- There is most certainly generic energy, whatever you may call it. Chi, qi, ki....or even psi.
> 
> It is used in Martial Arts around would.



Ok, i'm not exactly sure what you're talking about with qi, chi, etc. here.  Do you envision putting all your energy into a ball as a form of mental/spiritual/physical focus or are you reffering to something similar to "kamayamaya!!!!!" and shooting a ball lightning out of your hands at an enemy such as buu or freeza?  The way people are referring to this qi/chi stuff, it sounds as if they're actual physical energy, and if this is truely what you're intending it to mean, then i must assure you that i've never ever heard of this happening outside of dragonball Z.





> Scientists around the world just WISH that that were true. But it isn't. The fact that matter ISN'T energy is one of the hardest problems in physics, once which facilitates exotic theories such as the idea of the massive Higgs boson in order to explain mass.



wow, i just read up on this.  This is news to me, correct me if i'm wrong but is this stuff saying that unless they find higgs bosons in the LHC then string theory has to be revised or scrapped???  I thought string theory was the up and coming new standard model =(

----------


## magicdood

Sigh, No it's nothing like Dragon Ball Z...I wish it were! :p

It's invisible to most people, however, it is easily felt in the hands. No, you don't shoot it out like lighting, again, I wish that was the case! haha.

----------


## Chaos Theory

> Sigh, No it's nothing like Dragon Ball Z...I wish it were! :p
> 
> It's invisible to most people, however, it is easily felt in the hands. No, you don't shoot it out like lighting, again, I wish that was the case! haha.



An old friend of mine had a few useful techniques when you trained in Energy arts but sadly I no longer have his website.
Nah, Chi/Ki/Qi isn't really like DBZ. DBZ is just a more exaggerated form of it. You can't hurt anything physical with it.

----------


## trigotron

> You can't hurt anything physical with it.



I see.... so then it has no physical presence, if i read that right.





> It's invisible to most people, however, it is easily felt in the hands.



I think identity was hinting at this, if it's invisible to most people then it's "oogy boogy".

Herein i will state the difference between energy and what you guys are talking about.  Physical energy is a scientific concept, by scientific i mean that everyone, and i mean EVERYONE with no exceptions, can see its effects.  If i take a flourescant light and hold it near a tesla coil, everyone in the room is going to see that flourescant light light up.  However, if you use your qi energy to light up that flourescent light, and only two people in a room of 100 people see it, it's not energy, because it's not repeatable.  And if it's not repeatable, it's not scientific, and if it's not scientific it's not a physical force but a mental apparition/exercise.

EDIT: oh, so it's a visualization process, you're not claiming to be able to do anything extraordinary with it.  In that case, that's cool and is a legitimate technique.

----------


## Chaos Theory

> I see.... so then it has no physical presence, if i read that right.
> 
> 
> 
> I think identity was hinting at this, if it's invisible to most people then it's "oogy boogy".



Actually when I've done Chi which has been about 2-3 years now I feel a different sensation within my body and hands the before I start the visulization process.

Physical Prescence? No, you mis understood what I meant. I mean you can't blow buildings up with it like " b1g bang " or something of  the sort. Many people mistake it for that.

----------


## Mocari

Perhaps manifestation through visualization is self hypnosis. How is life different from self hypnosis?

How often are people going to make up new "particles" something consists of, when we keep finding the particles consist of 99% nothingness?
Matter can be seen as a form of energy, and energy as a form of matter. Just like horses can be forms of animals, and animals kinds of horses. It depends on what's most convenient. Like Bob said, reality seems to be what You can get away with.

And those 3d images are fake. There is no image to be seen in it. I can't see it. There are people who tell me how i can. I tried it but i can't. I don't believe You.

----------


## Lseadragon

Ok, a thought.

This arguing isn't going anywhere. A couple of people have suggested doing a video, but there would probably be something invalidating it.

So may I suggest that the anti-PK people make a comprehensive list of conditions, to eliminate as much fakery as possible. Then if someone can make a video showing PK under these conditions, or everybody refuses to, then we have somewhere to go with this, and a side that might be winning. And since it's going to be your side that wins, since the other side is obviously wrong, you should have no problems with this.

Other things:
Make sure the list is comprehensive. If you make one, and then call them on something obvious that you did not list, and might be missed - well, that's  just not fair, and makes more work.Surely someone can at least borrow a decent camera if they don't have one.Psi wheels apparently are very easy to disturb, so it might be better to avoid them.And the swallows dance above the sun, the swallows dance above the sun yeah.

----------


## fajam00m00

American Heritage Abbreviations Dictionary 3rd Edition

*psi* (n.) - pounds per square inch 

The American Heritage&#174; Abbreviations Dictionary, Third Edition
Copyright &#169; 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In that form, it exists.

----------


## Gumby123psi

You guys will just have to experience it.

----------


## trigotron

> American Heritage Abbreviations Dictionary 3rd Edition
> 
> *psi* (n.) - pounds per square inch 
> 
> The American Heritage® Abbreviations Dictionary, Third Edition
> Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
> Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.



lmao!

----------


## The Wig

> Ok, a thought.
> 
> This arguing isn't going anywhere. A couple of people have suggested doing a video, but there would probably be something invalidating it.
> 
> So may I suggest that the anti-PK people make a comprehensive list of conditions, to eliminate as much fakery as possible. Then if someone can make a video showing PK under these conditions, or everybody refuses to, then we have somewhere to go with this, and a side that might be winning. And since it's going to be your side that wins, since the other side is obviously wrong, you should have no problems with this.
> 
> Other things:Make sure the list is comprehensive. If you make one, and then call them on something obvious that you did not list, and might be missed - well, that's  just not fair, and makes more work.Surely someone can at least borrow a decent camera if they don't have one.Psi wheels apparently are very easy to disturb, so it might be better to avoid them.And the swallows dance above the sun, the swallows dance above the sun yeah.



Video is simply not good evidence. I can come up with a great video out of nowhere with my MacBook. Or someone can jack a previous existing video. All kinds of things.

I'd be comfortable with someone reading my mind or remote viewing my location and describing in detail what's around me.

----------


## magicdood

Wig, I agree with you for once. A video simply is not good evidence and I will simply not waste my time making a video for it to be bashed and talked about how it is fake. I mean, even "The best psi wheel video ever" got bashed. If you haven't seen that video, go to youtube.com and search for "The best psi wheel video ever"

Also, it is physical, it's just not visible to most people wihtout training. You can affect physical things, just not as exaggerated as DBZ..unfortunetely. :p

----------


## Oneironaught

> Actually when I've done Chi which has been about 2-3 years now I feel a different sensation within my body and hands the before I start the visulization process.



Yes, you can feel it. But, guess what? I can create that feeling throughout my entire body AT WILL. And that's not a joke, nor is it exaggeration. It's simply a relaxation/mental focus exercise. Nothing more - nothing less.






> Physical Prescence? No, you mis understood what I meant. I mean you can't blow buildings up with it like " b1g bang " or something of the sort. Many people mistake it for that.



It's only an internal sensation created by the purposeful focus of attention.





> So may I suggest that the anti-PK people make a comprehensive list of conditions, to eliminate as much fakery as possible.



What we are against is the mislabeling of phenomena. I don't think people are doubting the ability to "feel the energy". What's up for debate is exactly what that "energy" is. It's merely an internal sensation, not a created energy or manifestation of anything out of the ordinary.

It's like trying to claim the goosebumps are the effect of creating some sort of mystical electrostatic field of energy around ourselves. It clearly is not.

*EDIT:*





> And those 3d images are fake. There is no image to be seen in it. I can't see it. There are people who tell me how i can. I tried it but i can't. I don't believe You.



Clever as you think you are, the fact is that special viewers can be built to MAKE you see what's there. Can you do that with this magical, mystical ball of energy in your hands? I submit the concrete answer to be *no*.

----------


## Identity X

> Ah, identity X, my hero.  Thank you for fielding some of this stuff, you clearly have more knowledge about particle physics than i do.



Only what an A level in Physics can tell me. And I know nothing of string theory if you're wondering, it wasn't exactly on the curriculum.

As to gumby123psi's _"you'll just have to experience it"_, I would honestly enjoy it. I'm not trying to be a killjoy here. I'm not a dour skeptic or anything, just a part-time optimistic one.

I would like to think that we are all living on some plane of the material and the mundane, and some bright souls have punctured through its surface and reached some higher level of experience; that we need not be locked inside our own heads. But I see no evidence for it. Perhaps if we are living in some sort of subsumption architecture of layers - but only stuck at the bottom of the pile, the higher layers cannot influence our layer. But if that was true, the whole problem would be practically irrelevent, because it would never have any influence on me or my actions. Just as anything that exists out of spacetime we can disregard in observable physics, at least in my knowledge of it, I may be wrong. 

Thats the only explanation I can give for its absence the average life. Other than that it simply doesn't exist, of course. I'm tempted to (mis?)apply Occam's razor to it again.

----------


## magicdood

Guys, we never had evidence of anything till we created/found it. The first people had no evidence of anything. Yet they went out on a limb, tried it out, and found out that thing existed.

Psionics is relatively new. We are the "pioneers" so to speak. The evidence is being created, ya know?

----------


## Oneironaught

> Guys, we never had evidence of anything till we created/found it. The first people had no evidence of anything. Yet they went out on a limb, tried it out, and found out that thing existed.
> 
> Psionics is relatively new. We are the "pioneers" so to speak. The evidence is being created, ya know?



That's all well and good except for the fact that people have claimed various flavors of "psychic powers" for eons and yet, no one has EVER shown even the _slightest_ bit of credible proof. NOT ONE BIT.

This isn't like lucid dreaming, where science was forced to wait until a reliable test could be formulated. Psi powers are supposed to be able to affect things which are external to the bearer of such powers. So - I ask again - where the hell is the proof? There is none. Psi powers are non-existent in the face of reason: until proven otherwise.

----------


## magicdood

Fair enough. How can I argue with that? I won't.

To you, they are non-existent as you have seen NO proof. Fine. Fair argument, perfect reasoning.

To me, psi exists because I have seen proof. The proof I have showed myself, let's me believe in its existence. When I moved that can, I proved to myself that psi exists. So, yes, agreeing with your post, I can still believe in this.

And of course word means little to nothing on a forum board. I of course know that! But there is nothing more for me to do. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it...or not.  :wink2:

----------


## Chaos Theory

> Yes, you can feel it. But, guess what? I can create that feeling throughout my entire body AT WILL. And that's not a joke, nor is it exaggeration. It's simply a relaxation/mental focus exercise. Nothing more - nothing less.
> 
> 
> It's only an internal sensation created by the purposeful focus of attention.
> 
> 
> What we are against is the mislabeling of phenomena. I don't think people are doubting the ability to "feel the energy". What's up for debate is exactly what that "energy" is. It's merely an internal sensation, not a created energy or manifestation of anything out of the ordinary.
> 
> It's like trying to claim the goosebumps are the effect of creating some sort of mystical electrostatic field of energy around ourselves. It clearly is not.
> ...



I didn't state that I feel goosebumps. I stated that I felt a different sensation. I said I could never see, nor feel the energy. Just a *different* sensation. It's a very relaxing sensation indeed. I already know it's used as a visulization excercise. I've always wondered myself if it was really " Chi " or just a sensation my mind is forcing me to feel. Please if you feel that I am wrong, correct me. I do not want to give people the wrong impression of Energy arts, and not the false impression it is sometimes known for.

----------


## The Wig

> Fair enough. How can I argue with that? I won't.
> 
> To you, they are non-existent as you have seen NO proof. Fine. Fair argument, perfect reasoning.
> 
> To me, psi exists because I have seen proof. The proof I have showed myself, let's me believe in its existence. When I moved that can, I proved to myself that psi exists. So, yes, agreeing with your post, I can still believe in this.
> 
> And of course word means little to nothing on a forum board. I of course know that! But there is nothing more for me to do. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it...or not.



No one's going to take your word for it. To me, you're practically claiming fairies exit and live in my little toe.

----------


## magicdood

Alright, and I'm fine with that.

----------


## Torcher

I tend to leave all the doors open. Why not? Just make sure you don't seem crazy.

----------


## Oneironaught

> I didn't state that I feel goosebumps.



I never said you did. I was giving an example to illustrate a point about bodily feelings and the way that they can be mistaken for externally detectable phenomena.

----------


## trigotron

> Fair enough. How can I argue with that? I won't.
> 
> To you, they are non-existent as you have seen NO proof. Fine. Fair argument, perfect reasoning.
> 
> To me, psi exists because I have seen proof. The proof I have showed myself, let's me believe in its existence. When I moved that can, I proved to myself that psi exists. So, yes, agreeing with your post, I can still believe in this.
> 
> And of course word means little to nothing on a forum board. I of course know that! But there is nothing more for me to do. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it...or not.



Believe me, i would love to make a logical arguement for both sides of this debate, but unfortunately there is no logical arguement for psi powers.  We cannot deny that you've seen something that appeared to be "psi", we can only suggest scientific alternatives for the phenomenon you have seen.  Sombody (i can't remember who) posted that 




> Psionics is relatively new. We are the "pioneers" so to speak. The evidence is being created, ya know?



unfortunately, the thing about pioneers is they are almost always accurate in what they saw but almost never accurate in their explanation.  You reference "pioneers", pioneers include ptolemy who saw the heavens accurately but incorrectly proposed that they must be the result of the earth being the center of the universe.  This theory was later corrected by copernicus and galileo who figured out the real reason for the previously observed phenomenon.  It is not the evidence that is being created, it is an incorrect theory about the observations that is being created, unfortunately since no other person observed this phenomenon there is no possible way that measures can be taken to correct your incorrect "psi" theory, you saw what you saw, then like so many "pioneers" before you conceived a theory relating the unexplainable to god/magic/psychic powers, this is the normal human reaction and there is nothing wrong with it, except for the fact that all of the above assumptions are wrong in the sense that they cannot be proven.  What you percieve as psi may seem to a physicist as something else, a medieval cleric would percieve a rainbow as the work of god, but to a modern man it is simply a work of atmospheric light diffraction.  

My point is: like so many before you, you assume that the unknown is god/magic/psi, and like every single one of these pioneers who claimed to have seen the work of god/magic/psi, you will be proven wrong, in time.  This is because theories based on concepts that can NEVER be proved correct will eventually, given enough time, be replaced by even the most unlikely theories that CAN be tested and proved.

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## magicdood

Hehe, Ok...we'll see about that. I can just sit here and laugh until that time. Do you know why? Because I've seen myself perform Psychokinesis. So I can just sit around until It's proven that it isn't real? Fine...we'll see how long that takes. Oh right, it won't happen.

So, while I have no argument that you can believe, you are simply not swaying my position. I don't mind saying that I will gladly kiss your feet when I am sure that telekinesis doesn't exist. But the fact is, I've done it.

I didn't see what I saw...I worked at it. I just followed a site, but before that, I had NO idea nor any experience with psi. I simply followed a site, believed in the possibility, and had success. I didn't create a theory around that. Start doing some reading and research before you start spewing out meaningless words please. 

Thanks,
Brandon

----------


## Gumby123psi

Sometimes I actually lagh at you people.. You tell me I cant do it, but I know I can because I've seen myself do it! XD You dont seem to understand theres no possible way to prove it to you though. *Practice, and prove it to yourself.*

----------


## magicdood

I couldn't agree more gumby! It's  hilarious when I hear someone tell me that telekinesis isn't real and that I can't do it.

It's funny, because I've done it myself...but again, I agree that they will just have to prove it to themselves.

----------


## skysaw

I can shoot bendy straws out of my ears at will. No, I really can! If you think I can't, prove me wrong!  ::wizard::

----------


## magicdood

Yes skysaw, I understand that you can't trust all of what you read on the internet. I don't mind you not believing in me. Can you understand that? I do not care that you do not believe me. Now stop acting like I do. Thank you.

----------


## skysaw

> Yes skysaw, I understand that you can't trust all of what you read on the internet. I don't mind you not believing in me. Can you understand that? I do not care that you do not believe me. Now stop acting like I do. Thank you.



I will stop. Just for the record though, it's not just that I don't believe you have Psi powers, I also do not believe that you don't care I don't believe. Why else would you keep posting that you have them?

By the way, you have to admit that the bendy straw power would RULE!

----------


## magicdood

Heh, yes that power would rule.

Also, I'm trying to get other people to practice and see the potential of their minds. Just because you are close-minded, doesn't mean you have to spoil the true abilities of our minds for others.

And I don't mind that you don't believe that I don't mind that you don't believe me. :p No really, I don't. Hehe

----------


## trigotron

> *I just followed a site*, but before that, I had NO idea nor any experience with psi. I simply followed a site, believed in the possibility, and had success. I didn't create a theory around that. Start doing some reading and research before you start spewing out meaningless words please. 
> 
> Thanks,
> Brandon



Ok, you want me to do some research, however there is no scientific records of this ever being done... except this site you mention.  What is the site?

EDIT: oh yes and i did watch the "best psi wheel video ever".  It turns out that the guy that made it publicly admitted to faking it as a social experiment, he claimed that the skeptics were more fanatical in their belief that psi didn't exist than the believers, he also critized the skeptics for claiming they KNEW how the video was faked when they were all wrong.  Personally when i watched the video, i thought "this looks good, he's taking extra precautions... however, the front two legs of the table, the guy's face, half the guy's body and his left hand are outside the picture, a real psychic would have no problem showing his entire body to show he wasn't cheating".  I said to myself "i know this can't be real, and this guy must have figured out a smart way to do it, but it's a lot easier to say this video is wrong than to claim every other concept of physics in the world is wrong."  He claims anyone who participated in the debate on youtube was a fanatic.  However, i would much rather error on the side of physics, and i would rather be half right than not right at all, like the believers.

----------


## Oneironaught

> Hehe, Ok...we'll see about that. I can just sit here and laugh until that time. Do you know why? Because I've seen myself perform Psychokinesis.



[meaning]*psychokinesis:* used to distort or move an object[/meaning]

So, what exactly did you move with your mind now? Moving or distorting something with the mind would surely be something that could be demonstrated and - by virtue of demonstration - be observable by (and provable to) others.

----------


## magicdood

Psychokinesis means "Mind Movement" or at least, that was the definition I was referring to. I personally, have rolled cans, slid cans, spun foil balanced on it's center, and things like that. And yes, I know that those things can be replicated with things like static electricity however, I took necessary precautions to assure that it was me.

Now, that's just my word. I highly doubt you will believe it. In fact I'm sure you won't. But what's the difference.

----------


## The Wig

> Yes skysaw, I understand that you can't trust all of what you read on the internet. I don't mind you not believing in me. Can you understand that? I do not care that you do not believe me. Now stop acting like I do. Thank you.



We're not acting like you do. You do CARE if we believe in you or else you wouldn't keep professing that you can do it, and even two pages ago you asked us what you could do to prove it to us. You obviously care, so stop saying you don't.

----------


## magicdood

Again, since you obviously cannot read very well, or do not take the the time to read every post, I explained that I said "What can I do to prove it to you", meaning, you guys just ridicule everything, so there is nothing I can do in order to prove it to you. I already stated that, but there it is again cause you obviously can't be bothered to take a little time and read it all.

Also, I've explained numerous times why I've posted what I have, and I see no reason to say it again. Just go and read my recent posts. And stop being so lazy.

Thanks,
Brandon

----------


## The Wig

> Again, since you obviously cannot read very well, or do not take the the time to read every post, I explained that I said "What can I do to prove it to you", meaning, you guys just ridicule everything, so there is nothing I can do in order to prove it to you. I already stated that, but there it is again cause you obviously can't be bothered to take a little time and read it all.
> 
> Also, I've explained numerous times why I've posted what I have, and I see no reason to say it again. Just go and read my recent posts. And stop being so lazy.
> 
> Thanks,
> Brandon



I've read all your posts and everyone says the same thing: I believe in Psi because I can do it and I don't care if you believe me, but I'll keep posting about how I can do Psi and you can't anyway.

----------


## magicdood

When have I ever said you can't? In fact, if you had read my post, I clearly stated that you of course are very capable of doing these things. Again, a sign that you didn't read my posts.

In fact, I'd be very happy for you, if you learned how do to these things and open your mind. It would sincerely make me very happy.

----------


## The Wig

> When have I ever said you can't? In fact, if you had read my post, I clearly stated that you of course are very capable of doing these things. Again, a sign that you didn't read my posts.
> 
> In fact, I'd be very happy for you, if you learned how do to these things and open your mind. It would sincerely make me very happy.



I've read your damn posts, I meant "you can't" in a mocking tone that you seem to use whenever you claim to do the impossible.

----------


## magicdood

I do, do I? Well then, I'm sorry. It was not my intention to have a mocking tone. It was more so to say that I thought it was funny that someone would tell me that these skills are not real when I have done them. There was no mocking tone towards the statement that "You can't." So i don't really know where you go that from.

----------


## Kromoh

> Just like the physicists back in the day couldn't accept the world was round because they would have had to change all their scientific theories.



They didn't have to change their scientific theories. They had to change their _religious_ theories. It would bring religious theories down, not scientific. That's completely different.


Some people tend to talk abotu science like it was a tool made by ignorant people. Well, or your information, 1 + 1 = 2 and that is science. Math is a science, so to say

----------


## Gumby123psi

You people dont seem to get it. There is no way we can prove it to you!! You just have to practice and get results yourself. That is your proof. We cannot convince you. By the way I'm better at Lucid Dreaming than any of you ever will be.

----------


## Kromoh

> You people dont seem to get it. There is no way we can prove it to you!! You just have to practice and get results yourself. That is your proof. We cannot convince you.



no proof, no trying

I can just tell you that there is a pink elephant above your head, and say I can't prove it: you have to see it for yourself

no go ahead and try to see the pink elephant.... post your report on the experiment xD





> By the way I'm better at Lucid Dreaming than any of you ever will be.



why should I believe you? again your words lack proof  ::D:

----------


## trigotron

Shit, i'm tired of this philosophical bullshit.  This can be easily tested.  Sombody give me the link to the site you guys learned from.  I will attempt to practice this and get as good as i possibly can with a completely open mind.  I want to find that this works, i would love to find something change my mind, so allow me, by giving me the site link to test this psi stuff for myself.  You all saw my previous posts, so you know what my stance on it was before.  I will post again with my results, i will treat it as a scientific experiment and i guarantee, i will give both sides something conclusive that will put this discussion to rest once and for all.

----------


## The Wig

> You people dont seem to get it. There is no way we can prove it to you!! You just have to practice and get results yourself. That is your proof. We cannot convince you. By the way I'm better at Lucid Dreaming than any of you ever will be.



Telepathy is part of psi, someone read my goddam mind or remote view my house and tell me what kind of laptop I have, or TV brand, or something and describe with relative accuracy and I'll believe it.

If psychics are real and can't even do THAT, it's worthless in practice. 

Anyway, yeah, read my mind instead of rolling around a goddam ball on a table.

Also, who gives a crap if you can LD better than us? As far as I'm concerned, that's another unsubstantiated claim, and we're not contesting how has the biggest balls or who can do it better than anyone else. Now you're just being immature.

----------


## Oneironaught

> You people dont seem to get it. There is no way we can prove it to you!! You just have to practice and get results yourself. That is your proof. We cannot convince you. By the way I'm better at Lucid Dreaming than any of you ever will be.



When people claim to move things with their mind yet refuse to let anyone else see it happen then you pretty much have to take it to be bullsh!t because that's almost certainly what it is.

----------


## The Wig

> When people claim to move things with their mind yet refuse to let anyone else see it happen then you pretty much have to take it to be bullsh!t because that's almost certainly what it is.



foolish mortal, he doesn't care what you think or if you believe in his superpowers. he knows he can do it 'cause he PROVE IT TO HIMSELF.S

----------


## fajam00m00

> By the way I'm better at Lucid Dreaming than any of you ever will be.



Excuse me. I'm going to have to intervene here. THAT^^^ is just childish. You can not say something like that without sounding like a 4-year old. Now, if we take into account how completely cocky, ignorant, and immature that sounds, and that you believe in psi, we begin to paint a mental image of the kind of people that believe in this stuff:

Delusional, immature, arrogant pricks.

If you want us to take you seriously, you should not make a complete fool of yourself like that.

----------


## Astral__Explorer

It's all about having an open mind

If you have doubts about it then learn it and practice it consistently. Things like these I'd probably practice for six months constantly until I get results.

A lot of people are too close minded and don't believe nothing unless "Society" states its true.

For instance many people I've told about Astral Projection swear that it's impossible. Even Lucid dreaming they swear is impossible to do. I remember looking into remote viewing and watching a video where the guys classroom of RVers basically predicted something that happened. Many people wouldn't believe nothing that has to do with the mind.

If they can't use there 5 senses and it's not in the actualy physical world then they won't believe it.

The believe there is nothing at the bottom of the sea, when they've never been there. They claim certain mental things aren't possible but they have no clue what dreams or, nor deja vu, nor intuition.

It's funny because since I was young, I never really blew a statement or belief off until I got enough sources and results to come up with my own feedback. 

Up to this day I never knew how I could pin point that I'd get something or something would happen a few minutes later. (I think this is similar to what they talk about in "The secret")

Up to this day I can't understand how my mind could tell me to do something RIGHT now and save my life. I once almost go hit by a truck because I looked and then was about to cross but my mind and body told me to look agian and sure enough a truck passed a few inches from me. (This type of stuff happened countless times)

Up to this day I can't understand why when I actually want something or try to force to get something I never get it. But when I force it and realize I'm doing that, I'd instead deny the possiblity of me getting it or that happening and then I happen to get it?


spirituality, psychics and psychology are probably the 3 most unknown things to the average person. There is alot to learn in these areas. These are the 3 things I tend to focus on the most in my life. Why? because there is alot to discover in these areas.

The average person doesn't even know how much energy is in there body. 
-  To find out just do a good energy technique, raise the energy and realize all the parts of you're body that may not have a decent energy flow going through, due to you never doing this before. Better yet realize how it almost hurts and you start aching)

----------


## BeSomebody

Hardly a contradiction, Lucid Dreaming is to be conciously aware while your body is still asleep.

----------


## The Wig

> It's all about having an open mind
> 
> If you have doubts about it then learn it and practice it consistently. Things like these I'd probably practice for six months constantly until I get results.
> 
> A lot of people are too close minded and don't believe nothing unless "Society" states its true.
> 
> For instance many people I've told about Astral Projection swear that it's impossible. Even Lucid dreaming they swear is impossible to do. I remember looking into remote viewing and watching a video where the guys classroom of RVers basically predicted something that happened. Many people wouldn't believe nothing that has to do with the mind.
> 
> If they can't use there 5 senses and it's not in the actualy physical world then they won't believe it.
> ...




You can also fly if you practice really, really hard. It just takes mind power, you know?

----------


## TheUncanny

> You people dont seem to get it. There is no way we can prove it to you!!




Actually there is, its just that out of the thousands and thousands of people who claim they can do TK, no one has been able to *actually do it* yet.  Now, maybe you confused the idea of _you_ not being able to prove it to us, and the idea of it not being able to be proven.  The truth is that science can be applied to TK, and relatively simply at that.  It doesnt take much, just a person who claims they have telekinetic abilities and a closely monitored room with controlled conditions.  That's it. You don't need state of the art equipment, millions of dollars, or the brightest minds on the face of the planet to be able to tell if someone can actually move something without the use of their muscles.  All it takes is a willing participant and sufficient conditions.

There is no good excuse for the lack of scientific evidence, which is why it isn't all that unreasonable for people to look at TK and be somewhat suspicious. 





> You just have to practice and get results yourself. That is your proof.



You want to know what the problem is with this argument?  It has no actual substance to it. Let me explain. You see, I have tried this, and it stopped working as soon as I put a glass over the psi wheel. Those *are* my results, and they don't seem to compliment your cause. But you see, the catch 22 with the "do it yourself" argument is that if someone actually does try it, but doesnt get positive results, there is the convenient backdoor retreat of "well then you need to try harder". 

I could say the exact same thing about anything that is otherwise impossible...like turning air into 100 dollar bills. All I need to do is say that I have done it myself, and if you want proof to do it yourself too. And when you fail (because it's impossible) all I need to say is "Well I know it can be done, because I have done it, so just because you can't do it doesnt mean it can't be done...".  

But as you can see, like the air-to-cash example, there is no reason whatsoever that we would have to settle for "do-it-yourself proof" of telekinesis when such a phenomenon can be done in front of, and examined by, professionals. Right? 

So what do you have to say about that? Explain to me why, when it comes to TK, people seem to think they are exempt from scientific analysis...

----------


## Suby

All I want to say is: In my honest opinion, I think the astral projection/let's-meet -up-in-our-dreams/bullsh!t part of this forum BRINGS IT DOWN and puts off many people... Lets kick them off the site! It's not real science! Lucid dreaming IS. It has been researched and CAN be proved! Astral Projection my fat A$$.

----------


## TheUncanny

Im not sure I'd go that far, but I can definitely relate with what your feeling.  I too have my doubts about astral projection and dream linking, but on the other hand I have personally experienced things that have suggested the possible existence of "supernatural" abilities, which I feel is a misleading word because I dont actually think such abilities are "supernatural", just unrecognized.


I have even done experiments to test some of my results when it came to Ethereal Projections, which can be found in my journal if anyone is interested (or I can copy paste my results if preferred).  And though I dont think OBE's or projections are literally the "spirit" leaving the body, nor do I believe in spirit guides or things of that sort, I do think that there is a possibility that extra sensory perception, in some form, could exist. This of course is based off of my own results, which I admit are lacking. But I am doing a second experiment however.

The point is that I try to keep a neutral stance on things, yet at the same time I actively try to discover the truth in my experiences. Its not just me having a projection and saying "well, based on my experience I can make my soul leave my body" because it takes more than the personal experience to find truth.  If I hadnt tested my "psi" abilities by putting a glass over the psi wheel, then I too might be thinking "well Ive done it myself, so I know its possible" because after all, the psi wheel *did* spin.  It just turns out it wasnt because of telekinesis. But that could have only been determined by testing my abilities.  

Without doing that, none of these claims have any merit at all...even those that have been experienced first hand. Shit, I have spin a psi wheel too. Ive even done it in front of people.  But what I was doing wasnt telekinesis, though at the time I thought it was, or at least could be. The only reason I now know better is because I didnt just stop at the personal expereince, I applied science.

----------


## magicdood

Finally back from hockey and a vacation! It was nice to get a break from everything, but here I am ready to argue? Nah..

See, I agree with Astral Explorer, although he never truly stated his belief as to psionics. Humans simply will not believe anything unless society and/or science says it's true. 

What is the problem with the argument of "Practice and see your own results as proof?" Nothing.

Just because you saw no results, does not mean it isn't true. Can you run a 3 minute mile, 4 minute, 5 minute? No (it's just an example, so if you can, shh. :p) Does  that mean it's not possible? No. And yes, I know that it has been proven to be possible, but that isn't the point. The point is, just because you can't do something, doesn't mean it isn't true.

The Wig- Yep, I can...getting there too.  :smiley: 

Anyways, obviously there is no point in me stating my position on this argument. You guys are simply to close-minded to listen to what I have to say. Also, I understand and have stated that I really haven't given you any reason to fully believe me, and I know that there are many crazy people claiming incredible things that seem impossible. However, the point was simply to open a few people's minds, and maybe help them to understand some of the abilities that we as conscious beings have. And, I know that I have opened a few people's minds, and that makes me very happy and I'm glad for those people.

However, I don't need to argue any more about this....it is done. There is simply no reason to keep this going as neither side is having an effect on the other!  ::o:   :wink2:

----------


## TheUncanny

In reagrds to the "do it yourself" argument:





> You want to know what the problem is with this argument?  It has no actual substance to it. Let me explain. You see, I have tried this, and it stopped working as soon as I put a glass over the psi wheel. Those *are* my results, and they don't seem to compliment your cause. But you see, the catch 22 with the "do it yourself" argument is that if someone actually does try it, but doesn’t get positive results, *there is the convenient backdoor retreat of "well then you need to try harder"*. 
> 
> I could say the exact same thing about anything that is otherwise impossible...like turning air into 100 dollar bills. All I need to do is say that I have done it myself, and if you want proof to do it yourself too. And when you fail (because it's impossible) all I need to say is "Well I know it can be done, because I have done it, so just because you can't do it doesnt mean it can't be done...".  
> 
> But as you can see, like the air-to-cash example, there is no reason whatsoever that we would have to settle for "do-it-yourself proof" of telekinesis when such a phenomenon can be done in front of, and examined by, professionals. Right? 
> 
> So what do you have to say about that? Explain to me why, when it comes to TK, people seem to think they are exempt from scientific analysis...



read this please.

----------


## magicdood

Done. I don't get it. What are you trying to say? I find it humorous that you are telling me that something I have done does not exist. Can't you see how I would find that funny?

Yep, that argument has flaws like almost if not all other arguments...however, it's the truthful one...that's all there is to it.

----------


## TheUncanny

You don't get it? Let me explain it to you.  The "do it yourself" argument is moot, and there is no reason why TK can't be performed in front of scientists in a lab, which means there is no good reason to have to settle for "do it yourself" proof, now is there?  

Catching on?

Your word is worthless as evidence, which makes the come back "whats funny is you telling me I can't do something I have done" worthless as a result. If you want to know why, look at my air-to-cash example.  The fallacy is that this sort of argument relies wholly on the subjective experience, which means the negative results apparently mean nothing, and the positive results are objectively unsubstantiated, which is a fancy way of saying "hear-say'.  The thing though is that you assume that is the only type of evidence you can get when it comes to TK...which is utter bullshit. 

Whats funny is the way you seem to have no comprehension of the importance of objective, empirical evidence. or the way you think you can undercut the suspicious absence of scientific evidence with your testimony. Thats whats funny.  





> Yep, that argument has flaws like almost if not all other arguments...however, it's the truthful one...that's all there is to it.



and what say you about why there is no other type of evidence besides the subjective experience? Did you read how I have made a psi wheel spin, and how that personal expereince, when unverified, means absolutely nothing?





> The point is that I try to keep a neutral stance on things, yet at the same time I actively try to discover the truth in my experiences. Its not just me having a projection and saying "well, based on my experience I can make my soul leave my body" because it takes more than the personal experience to find truth. If I hadnt tested my "psi" abilities by putting a glass over the psi wheel, then I too might be thinking "well Ive done it myself, so I know its possible" because after all, the psi wheel *did* spin. It just turns out it wasnt because of telekinesis. But that could have only been determined by testing my abilities. 
> 
> Without doing that, none of these claims have any merit at all...even those that have been experienced first hand. Shit, I have spin a psi wheel too. Ive even done it in front of people. But what I was doing wasnt telekinesis, though at the time I thought it was, or at least could be. The only reason I now know better is because I didnt just stop at the personal expereince, I applied science.



The point being there is nothing you can say that will justify why the scientific community has yet to substantiate telekinesis, and that is very fucking suspicious if you ask me.

----------


## LucidDreamGod

yeah, it makes perfect sense to me that lucid dreaming is real I mean in your dream if you think your not dreaming it makes equal sense that you wil beable to think that you are dreaming.

Scentists don't study lucid dreaming because there is no use for it really (at least no really practicle use for it, plus theres not much to study), and there are a very small number that do study it.

----------


## magicdood

Well, all very true what you said, ethen. But the fact is, I understand that my word cannot easily just be trusted. I mean, I have as  much reason to believe that you can turn air into cash as you have to believe me. Unfortunetely, I have +19,000 claiming the same thing, while you are only yourself. 

Of course, I understand that 19,000 people have nothing better to do than claim to do this, and spend +1 year(s) on the internet writing more than 500 posts each on a forum about these kinds of things...

And also, I am not going to go to a scientist. I don't want the publicity, I don't wanna "force" anyone to believe in this, and I don't wanna be ridiculed by people who will call me a fake....or more people than already, hehe.

You act like I don't understand that my word is "moot", and yet of course I realize that. But the thing is, I don't mind you not believing. Again, I was only trying to open some minds, and you are not one of them, evidently. And that's fine, it's absolutely your choice.

----------


## Gumby123psi

Ok fine..You guys win. You want proof, I'll give you it. 

(List stolen from Sean and JoeT)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapsychology
http://www.parapsychology.org/
http://www.parapsychologydegrees.com/
http://www.rhine.org/
http://perso.orange.fr/basuyaux/parapsy_eng/links/
http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/
http://www.espresearch.com/
http://www.parapsych.org/
http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0003044
http://www.ions.org/
http://www.lfr.org/LFR/csl/
http://www.dina.kvl.dk/~abraham/psy1.html
http://www.fmbr.org/
http://www.psywww.com/asc/obe/missz.html


Theres your godamn proof. Scientists and the government has been all over paraphycology for a long time. And guess what? Somebody called me childish.. I dont give a fuck! Haha!! I can be childish if I want, its got nothing to do with paraphycology and if its real or not.

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## TheUncanny

we are not talking about general parapsychology, we are talking SPECIFICALLY about telekinesis. Nice try though. Give me some reliable proof of telekinesis, and then maybe we can actually make some progress...

----------


## TheUncanny

> Well, all very true what you said, ethen. But the fact is, I understand that my word cannot easily just be trusted. I mean, I have as  much reason to believe that you can turn air into cash as you have to believe me. Unfortunetely, I have +19,000 claiming the same thing, while you are only yourself. 
> 
> Of course, I understand that 19,000 people have nothing better to do than claim to do this, and spend +1 year(s) on the internet writing more than 500 posts each on a forum about these kinds of things...
> 
> And also, I am not going to go to a scientist. I don't want the publicity, I don't wanna "force" anyone to believe in this, and I don't wanna be ridiculed by people who will call me a fake....or more people than already, hehe.
> 
> You act like I don't understand that my word is "moot", and yet of course I realize that. But the thing is, I don't mind you not believing. Again, I was only trying to open some minds, and you are not one of them, evidently. And that's fine, it's absolutely your choice.



You are so full of shit. you expect me to believe that, of those 19000 not one person is willing to go to sceince?  lmao  

Like I said earlier, that "impressive figure" of 19000 only hurts your argument because its all the more unlikely that TK is just an unrecognised phenomenon that only few have.  It make me think that, with a skill that wide spread, it must be bullshit for it to still not have any decent evidence...lol

----------


## skysaw

> Theres your godamn proof. Scientists and the government has been all over paraphycology for a long time. And guess what? Somebody called me childish.. I dont give a fuck! Haha!! I can be childish if I want, its got nothing to do with paraphycology and if its real or not.



Wow... did you read all the material on those links? Here's a section of your first link you might have missed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapsychology#Fraud

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## magicdood

No Ethen, as I have clearly stated I don't expect you to believe it.

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## Gumby123psi

No dudes..We're proving psychic abilities. If RV and telepathy and clairvoyance are real like I just proved, then I'm assuming PK is too.. Now your just being unreasonable. I finally give you the proof you asked for. And actually theres lots of PK stuff on those sites. As you said "nice try".  :;-):

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## TheUncanny

lol you can't make that assumption, they are not the same thing!  


are you joking?



Thats like saying "if lucid dreaming is real, than so is voodoo, santa claus, unicorns, and everything else thought to not be real by sceince!!1!"  The existence of one doesnt not imply the existence of the other...logic 101.

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## Oneironaught

> And also, I am not going to go to a scientist. I don't want the publicity, I don't wanna "force" anyone to believe in this, and I don't wanna be ridiculed by people who will call me a fake....or more people than already, hehe.



But don't you understand that by not "proving" it you only _make_ yourself a fake. If you were to show others this amazing skill of yours then there'd be no need at all to "force" any one to believe it because facts speak for themselves.

----------


## trigotron

> Up to this day I can't understand how my mind could tell me to do something RIGHT now and save my life. I once almost go hit by a truck because I looked and then was about to cross but my mind and body told me to look agian and sure enough a truck passed a few inches from me. (This type of stuff happened countless times)







> In 1979, a survey of more than 1,100 college professors in the United States found that only 2&#37; of psychologists expressed the belief that extra-sensory perception was an impossibility. A far greater amount, 34%, indicated that they believed ESP was either an established fact or a likely possibility. The percentage was even higher in other areas of study. 55% of natural scientists, 66% of social scientists (excluding psychologists), and 77% of academics in the arts, humanities, and education believed that ESP research was worthwhile.



Ok, as usual you all know my stance on this stuff, and you all probably have a general idea what i'm poking at with these two quotes.  However, all i hope is that i am considered "rational" by both sides of this debate, nothing more.  With that said, let me explain why these two quotes are significant.  

The first quote, by astral explorer, states his reason for believing in ESP/paranormal occurances.  However, there is a reason that the academy of science recognizes only 5 senses, that is because everything that can be conclusively and scientifically observed can be explained by those 5 senses.  I am a man of science, and by saying that i mean i am skeptical about what you might say i should be more "open minded" about.  I share a common aspect with astral explorer it seems, that is the 5th sense, that of touch, is slightly more sensitive than the majority of the population, i am suggesting of course that astral can detect slight changes in air pressure.  The brain acted quickly using this information, which caused astral to think for a second before the truck crossed where he would have been standing.  The reason astral could detect the truck before he looked at it, i hypothesize is because he sensed the overpressure in front of the truck (quite larger and more noticeable than that of a car) and therefore hesitated before stepping.  It is a known adaptation that some humans can in fact detect more minute pressure variations than others.  I, for example can predict when someone is at my door before they actually knock for this same reason, i could feel the slight rumblings of human footsteps in the house, my brain interpreted these vibrations and eventually i can predict with a good deal of certainty when someone is right next to my door.  Someone with a more "open mind" however would interpret this as "ESP".  

Secondly, i would like to discuss the second quote from the wikipedia article.  This is an unencyclopedic rationale for why parapsychology exists, it implies that because of a majority of professors in the soft sciences agrees that ESP is real, then it must be true, when in fact, this could not be farther from the truth.  I rely on the example of galileo and ptolemy, just because the world agrees that ptolemy's geocentric universe is true, does not make it such.  In fact this wikipedia article is increasingly biased by the fact that they only cite sources in the soft sciences and no physicists were cited.  In fact, they parapsychologists themselves have a majority against their own philosophy while social scientists and artists who _don't even study_ ESP are quoted for their beliefs.  

In conclusion, i would like to state once more that we have 5 senses for a reason, not 6, 5.  And just because some people (or even a majority of people) attribute some phenomenon to the paranormal, does not make those phenomenon such.

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## skysaw

> In fact this wikipedia article is increasingly biased by the fact that they only cite sources in the soft sciences and no physicists were cited.



Not to mention, it would be nice to see some numbers taken more recently than 1979! The seventies were the heyday of ESP belief. I'm sure popular opinion has swung much the other way in the past 30 years.

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## magicdood

Oneironaught- I am not trying to force anyone to believe anything and it is becoming frustrating how you keep accusing me of such.

Secondly, just because I cannot prove this stuff to you does not mean I'm a fake. It hasn't been proven NOR disproven. Provide me evidence that psionics has been disproven. 

Now, the fact that you cannot provide that evidence does not mean that psionics is real. Definitely not. But the point is, you should keep an open mind before you are 100&#37; sure that it is fake. I mean, you sit here telling me so confidently that it is not real, but what have you done to accept that theory. I mean, just hearing someone say that it sounds ridiculous to perform PK should not be enough to make you not believe. At least I have personal experience and personal proof to back up my beliefs. And sure, you might have tried to perform PK/psionics with limited to no success, but how can I be sure that you fully believed in what you were doing or actually tried your hardest using techniques that work.? I can't. I simply can't trust your word that you had no success despite your most valiant efforts.

Now, I am not forcing you to believe, nor do I mind you not believing. I hope that can be straightened up from this concise statement. 

All I am saying is that, personally, I know that these things are real. If I can help another open-minded person to realize that, then great. But like you said, I don't wanna have to force these opinions of validity on people, and I will not seek the media nor scientist to do so.

Re-cap- I don't mind you not believing in these abilities, and I am not forcing my views. I understand that you have limited reason to believe what I am saying. I am simply trying to help others realize the potential of their minds by their own accord and their own willingness to accept the "challenge" of practicing these abilities. If you do not want to believe, then that is absolutely fine. But please stop making false accusations about me saying that I am mocking anyone or trying to force my beliefs. It's quite annoying.  ::o: 

Brandon

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## Caius Jonny

i know with absolute certainty that OBE experiences are real... i have a close family member that used to have them.. he could go anywhere he wanted.. do anything... talk with people in other continents... see visions.. but hes put all that behind him b/c he felt that it wasnt something that should be messed with... as to say something that we arent supposed to be able to do.. (he had other reasons for leaving it behind)... i however am tring to LD and when will decide for myself  when i have a personal experience

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## Oneironaught

> The reason astral could detect the truck before he looked at it, i hypothesize is because he sensed the overpressure in front of the truck (quite larger and more noticeable than that of a car) and therefore hesitated before stepping.



But, couldn't it be as simple as the fact that a big truck racing towards him would make noise? He'd have to hear the sound. Secondly, couldn't it be as simple as him thinking "Oh sh!t, what am I doing walking out into the street without even looking first? Foolish me. Woah! there was a truck coming; damn good thing I remembered to look before I got myself killed."





> Not to mention, it would be nice to see some numbers taken more recently than 1979! The seventies were the heyday of ESP belief. I'm sure popular opinion has swung much the other way in the past 30 years.



Exactly, remember the great scammer, Uri Geller? He had the world fooled. Even after being exposed as a complete fraud, many people still refused to accept that he was doing magic tricks and not really using "mental powers" to perform his "amazing feats".





> Oneironaught- I am not trying to force anyone to believe anything and it is becoming frustrating how you keep accusing me of such.



Ok, what the hell are you talking about? I never said you're trying to force any one to believe anything. YOU said "I don't wanna "force" anyone to believe in this" and I responded by saying "If you were to show others this amazing skill of yours then there'd be no need at all to "force" any one to believe it because facts speak for themselves".

In other words, "forcing" has nothing to do with it. All you'd have to do is demonstrate this power and you'd have the world groveling at your feet.





> Secondly, just because I cannot prove this stuff to you does not mean I'm a fake.



No, the fact that you cannot prove it means nothing. But, given how many people throughout the ages have claimed these outstanding magical abilities - TRYING to gain fame from them - the fact that NO ONE has EVER proven them to be actual powers (and not simply deception) tells any one with a logical mind that it's complete, utter bullsh!t.

There's been a $1 million Dollar prize - to be collected by ANYONE who can prove the existence of true psi powers - up for grabs for many years now. But guess what? Not a single person has claimed the booty. And why is that, I ask? I'll tell you: because every single person who's ever claimed to have such abilities has been unable to demonstrate these powers under any kinds of real scrutiny.

Science requires things to be able to hold up under scrutiny. If things don't meet such basic requirements then one must conclude the claimer to be full of sh!t.

You can move things with your mind? Fine, prove it or shut the hell up. That's the way the real world works.





> It hasn't been proven NOR disproven. Provide me evidence that psionics has been disproven.



Oh no you don't. The burden of proof is on your shoulders, not mine. If some one tells me that they have the ability to move things with their mind yet, are unable to demonstrate this talent then they are, by default, to be considered dishonest. Why would the task of disproving be on my shoulders when you're the one making extraordinary claims?

Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. No proof? No dice.





> I mean, you sit here telling me so confidently that it is not real, but what have you done to accept that theory.



No, I'm telling you that you are claiming the very same thing that many others have claimed. And, like many before you, you refuse to prove your "abilities" because you can't. Do you really believe that the hundreds of thousands of people who've claimed these abilities all wanted to conceal their "powers" at the same time they are claiming to have such powers? That's absolutely absurd, to say the very least.

Sorry but, your claims hold no water until you show the goods.

----------


## trigotron

> But, couldn't it be as simple as the fact that a big truck racing towards him would make noise? He'd have to hear the sound. Secondly, couldn't it be as simple as him thinking "Oh sh!t, what am I doing walking out into the street without even looking first? Foolish me. Woah! there was a truck coming; damn good thing I remembered to look before I got myself killed."



Yes i considered that, however, for him to have heard it would mean that his entire story would be a complete fraud, there had to be something about the situation that made it seem extraordinary.  After all, the sound of a truck coming is no more than that of really any other car coming on a busy street corner, he could have been not paying attention, but for him to believe so strongly what he felt was ESP, i highly doubt it was based on noise... or you're right, he's lying, he stepped into the street, the truck honked at him, he recoiled and is making this whole story about him suddenly believing in an outside force up.  I like to believe what people saw, and dispute the reasons behind it, whereas your most recent quote was simply disputing what they saw.  I believe this is counterproductive, it is better to attack ignorance than to attack people for what they cannot explain.

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## Oneironaught

> Yes i considered that, however, for him to have heard it would mean that his entire story would be a complete fraud, there had to be something about the situation that made it seem extraordinary. After all, the sound of a truck coming is no more than that of really any other car coming on a busy street corner, he could have been not paying attention, but for him to believe so strongly what he felt was ESP, i highly doubt it was based on noise... or you're right, he's lying, he stepped into the street, the truck honked at him, he recoiled and is making this whole story about him suddenly believing in an outside force up. I like to believe what people saw, and dispute the reasons behind it, whereas your most recent quote was simply disputing what they saw. I believe this is counterproductive, it is better to attack ignorance than to attack people for what they cannot explain.



That's interesting. You're claiming a possible explanation to be that he subconsciously felt a pressure change and I suggest that he subconsciously heard the sound. Yet, somehow, your explanation is acceptable and mine is just trying to be argumentative? Ok, whatever.

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## iLight

..............people wake up! we cannot proof something that  cannot be seen. And yet it vibrates all around us does that mean it doesn't exist? LOL 

Seriously theres no point on arguing with closed minded people. Know your self, know the truth. Keep an eye on everything..and see the truth. 

We cannot explain something that doesn't follow our scientific calculations! never heard that? LOL math isn't perfect, such as we aint perfect that doesn't mean we are stupid right? 

Did we come to this life just to uncover psychic abilities? and use it against us as we did on Weapons and atomic bombs? gosh...
Reality is something that we will never understand..it has no shape nor even colors and yet we percieve it in full in color. 
Oobe or LD's real or not real? who cares? no one has a profit out of it so why bother explaining its existance?

 ::bowdown::

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## magicdood

Oneironaught- The fact that others have failed, still does not make me or psychokinesis a fake. It simply doesn't. All it states is that many people want to get rich, doing fake things. It does not mean that this is fake. You are acting like just because other people can't do it, it's not real. Yet that's simply not true.

Also, The randi challenge is crap now. Now, you have to be a scientist or a person with a high educational back round to even try to enter his challenge.

And guess what, there was a pretty good psion who attempted to go to the randi challenge and he wasn't allowed. So no, not ANYBODY can go. Do some research please.

Again, if you don't wanna believe in this stuff, that's fine. But it's doing you no good to tell me I'm fake and that this is fake. I'm pretty sure that I have seen myself performing PK so hearing you say that does not sway my opinion. And note, I am not trying to sway your opinion, I'm trying to open minds, so that they decide to believe in this themselves.

Born 2 kill- Good post and I understand what you are saying. However, I would really like to help others understand what their mind can do, and I love seeing another person succeed in these skills. However, there is no point in trying argue it's proof, since words will not get us anywhere.

Brandon

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## Gumby123psi

Ok people. I gave you the proof, the scientific evidence. Scientific studies prove its real. You cant argue with science, I'm sorry. You asked for the proof, we provided. And parapsycology includes PK.

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## thegnome54

"Ok people. I gave you the proof, the scientific evidence. Scientific studies prove its real. You cant argue with science, I'm sorry. You asked for the proof, we provided. And parapsycology includes PK."

Scientific studies like wikipedia and Uri Geller?

There is no scientific evidence for any of that nonsense.

The answer to the original question - if LD is real, what about the other stuff?  Is this:  Lucid Dreaming does not involve supernatural forces or souls.  Lucid dreaming is simply having a conscious portion of your brain active while your body sleeps.  To go from being aware that you're dreaming to believing in telekinesis, big foot, or esp is a BIG leap.

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## Oneironaught

> Oneironaught- The fact that others have failed, still does not make me or psychokinesis a fake. It simply doesn't. All it states is that many people want to get rich, doing fake things.



Now, with that, I agree 100%





> Is this: Lucid Dreaming does not involve supernatural forces or souls. Lucid dreaming is simply having a conscious portion of your brain active while your body sleeps. To go from being aware that you're dreaming to believing in telekinesis, big foot, or esp is a BIG leap.



Exactly my underlying point. Thank you.

----------


## Sornaensis

> Shit, i'm tired of this philosophical bullshit.  This can be easily tested.  Sombody give me the link to the site you guys learned from.  I will attempt to practice this and get as good as i possibly can with a completely open mind.  I want to find that this works, i would love to find something change my mind, so allow me, by giving me the site link to test this psi stuff for myself.  You all saw my previous posts, so you know what my stance on it was before.  I will post again with my results, i will treat it as a scientific experiment and i guarantee, i will give both sides something conclusive that will put this discussion to rest once and for all.



www.ppsociety.com www.psipog.net2 www.mytelekinesis.com1 

Miscellaneous methods you create yourself, which is mostly what i do. Just like LD'ing, there isn't exactly a "one-technique works-4-all".

*NOTE:* Results vary from person to person. Average time to become o-k with the psiwheel is 3-6 months.

*Also: Meditation is strongly suggested.

1 This site is currently being re-built.
2 Site is non-community oriented. As of January.

EDIT: I am starting a new community site HERE at http://www.mytkgroup.tk The website is mostly finished, and the forums are ready for members.  :smiley:

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## magicdood

> "Ok people. I gave you the proof, the scientific evidence. Scientific studies prove its real. You cant argue with science, I'm sorry. You asked for the proof, we provided. And parapsycology includes PK."
> 
> Scientific studies like wikipedia and Uri Geller?
> 
> There is no scientific evidence for any of that nonsense.



Gumby made an earlier post listing many scientific websites providing proof towards parapsychology. Please go read his post before you post nonsense like that.

Oneironaught- And also, that is a huge leap. I'm wondering how that was even brought up with LD'ing hehe. They are sooo different. But no matter!

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## The Wig

> The Wig- Yep, I can...getting there too.



Okay, you just admitted you can fly. All further posts by you are now irrelevant and no one should pay any attention to them.





> i know with absolute certainty that OBE experiences are real... i have a close family member that used to have them.. he could go anywhere he wanted.. do anything... talk with people in other continents... see visions.. but hes put all that behind him b/c he felt that it wasnt something that should be messed with... as to say something that we arent supposed to be able to do.. (he had other reasons for leaving it behind)... i however am tring to LD and when will decide for myself when i have a personal experience




I also know a friend of a friend of a friend who knows this guy who can shoot fireballs out of his eyes.

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## magicdood

"Getting there"...since when does that mean that I can? It doesn't. Jeez you are seeming less and less bright with every post! Maybe no one should be listening to YOU anymore. That seems the better course of action seeing as all you do is be mean, sarcastic, and have a closed mind. You don't argue, you simply ridicule. Go find something better to do.

Oh and btw, it was a half joke. I can't fly, yet....my point was, it's a goal in the future, hehe.

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## TheUncanny

> ..............people wake up! we cannot proof something that  cannot be seen




What do you mean telekinesis can't be seen? If you can move an object with your mind, then you should be able to see the movement, right? Its common sense.

And that by itself would be enough for sceince. 

All someone would have to do is telekinetically move something, and have scientists verify that they weren't using trickery or whatever (which they can do)

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## The Wig

> "Getting there"...since when does that mean that I can? It doesn't. Jeez you are seeming less and less bright with every post! Maybe no one should be listening to YOU anymore. That seems the better course of action seeing as all you do is be mean, sarcastic, and have a closed mind. You don't argue, you simply ridicule. Go find something better to do.
> 
> Oh and btw, it was a half joke. I can't fly, yet....my point was, it's a goal in the future, hehe.



Why does everyone spout off "closed mind" when someone disagrees with something they say? That seems so incredibly stupid I just can't fathom why it's used so much. If someone says they are violating the second law of thermodynamics and I refuse to believe them without proof positive, am I having a closed mind? No. That law is pretty much set in stone and extraordinary claims require some extraordinary evidence. 

I don't have a closed mind. I'm perfectly willing to try new things. But do you even understand the claim you're making and how big it is? And you don't even try and provide evidence for it and just say that we're are "closed minded"! I'm sorry if you feel I "don't argue" and "simply ridicule" but give me a break. You just claimed that a goal of yours in the future is to fly. Sorry but...

*It's not going to happen.*

As for your Psi claims, that's false as well but I'm certainly more willing to believe that than you flying, but you still provide no evidence. 


I still maintain that you and gumpy or gumby or whatever should just read one of our minds and prove it for real.

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## magicdood

You say "That's false as well" and yet you argue that you aren't close-minded? Seems a little contradictory to me. 

The fact that you are telling me that it's false allows me to think that you are close-minded. Do you know why? Because I've seen myself perform Pk. So I have every right in the world to call you close-minded.

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## Sornaensis

Dude, wig, you ARE close-minded. YOu aren't asking for proof, you are just saying "0i!? T3l3k1n3s1s IzsnT r33l!!!!!111one!!one" That's all i see. If you REALLY want to find out. Train, try to do it, and... When you do, you will feel silly :p. I have a guide HERE

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## Oneironaught

> So I have every right in the world to call you close-minded.



Not close-minded: logical and sensible. As has been said, when you claim to break the known laws of physics, YOU are the one who must provide proof - not the other way around.

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## thegnome54

> Gumby made an earlier post listing many scientific websites providing proof towards parapsychology. Please go read his post before you post nonsense like that.



I did read his post.  Did you?!

Those links are all nonsense, sites trying to sell memberships, books, tapes, random vague references to experiments which probably never occured...

The FACT IS, lucid dreaming has nothing to do with the paranormal or spiritual or supernatural, or ANY of that stuff.  Lucid dreaming is simply that - dreaming while conscious.  If you think that makes it more likely that your neuronal action potentials can somehow move objects not in physical contact with you, or that wolf prints in snow which melted and became larger were made by bigfoot, or that intense hallucinations caused by lack of blood flow and massive head trauma are really trips to the garden of eden... well, THAT'S nonsense.

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## skysaw

> I did read his post.  Did you?!



I also read his post, and commented on the big "Fraud" section of his first link. Nobody seemed on the Psi end seemed to notice that one for some reason.

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## magicdood

Oneironaught- He is not being logical and sensible. Logical and sensible would be weighing all the options. Currently he's just flaming me/us. Nothing logical about that. I don't need to provide proof. I would need to provide proof if I cared whether you believe me or not. But I don't, so no need for that!

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## der'morat'oneiro

Not true that there's no really good evidence for psi. Studies done at the Stanford Research Institute on Remote Viewing in the 70's-80's were rigorously controlled scientifically and provided undeniable evidence that RV is real. Not only that, but everyone has the latent ability to do it. The research is out there, if you're interested. It's probably personal bias that makes you think there's no proof. I also didn't believe it. I have seen it demonstrated and participated in demonstrations myself, and I have no doubts remaining about it. I recommend the book "Mind-Reach: Scientists Look at Psychic Abilities", by Russell Targ and Harold E. Puthoff.

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## Gumby123psi

Completely true. :-D And you people get mad when I present my ideas as fact, well guess what? It IS fact! Its been proven, if you dont want to take the evidence then thats too bad for you.. But the fact is, its real.

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## magicdood

Well I guess all the Science Huggers will now have to do some research, find the site, and then announce that they acknowledge that RVing is real. Too bad.  ::D:

----------


## The Wig

> Dude, wig, you ARE close-minded. YOu aren't asking for proof, you are just saying "0i!? T3l3k1n3s1s IzsnT r33l!!!!!111one!!one" That's all i see. If you REALLY want to find out. Train, try to do it, and... When you do, you will feel silly :p. I have a guide HERE



You didn't read a goddam word I said. Why should anyone believe anything that far fetched without proof? And if they don't, why are they "close minded"?

----------


## magicdood

They are certainly not close minded just cause they do not believe. Definitely not. That would be dumb. They are close minded because they will not accept the possibility of it being a fact and are not willing to try and find out more information.

----------


## augustus

check out biosupermindpowers.com.....or google Ingo Swann......I just read all the threads, this is an interesting site

----------


## magicdood

Are you sure you typed that site in right? I can't get to it.  ::shock::

----------


## The Wig

> Oneironaught- He is not being logical and sensible. Logical and sensible would be weighing all the options. Currently he's just flaming me/us. Nothing logical about that. I don't need to provide proof. I would need to provide proof if I cared whether you believe me or not. But I don't, so no need for that!



You do care. That's why you keep coming back with "Guys, I can really do it" instead of just leaving. If you don't care, why are you trying to sway our opinion?

----------


## magicdood

Sigh, you are extremely hard-headed. I'm not trying to sway your opinion. I'm trying to open your minds. And all these lasts post, I have not been saying that I can do it. The only time I have been saying that is to help explain why what you are saying does not make sense to me. Please, stop accusing me of trying to sway your opinions because I am not. You really need to get a better line then that. You've accused me of that all the time when you can't think of anything better to say.

----------


## Gumby123psi

> You didn't read a goddam word I said. Why should anyone believe anything that far fetched without proof? And if they don't, why are they "close minded"?



Without proof..We gave you the proof. And yes, I am saying I can do it.

----------


## The Wig

> Sigh, you are extremely hard-headed. I'm not trying to sway your opinion. I'm trying to open your minds. And all these lasts post, I have not been saying that I can do it. The only time I have been saying that is to help explain why what you are saying does not make sense to me. Please, stop accusing me of trying to sway your opinions because I am not. You really need to get a better line then that. You've accused me of that all the time when you can't think of anything better to say.



You have the most posts in this thread. You're obviously trying to do something other than "Hey, check this out when you get a chance, it's neat!" No one would sit at their computer and argue about the validity of Psi if they didn't care about what other people are thinking. You obviously do give a shit whether or not we believe your crazy ass ideas, so stop saying you don't. Maybe then we could move on (doubtful).

----------


## magicdood

I've explained what I am trying to do countless times. If you can't understand my reasons yet, then I feel very sorry for you. I feel no need to repeat why I'm still posting any longer. Feel free to read just about any other post by me in this thread and I'm sure you'll find what you are looking for.

----------


## thegnome54

> Well I guess all the Science Huggers will now have to do some research, find the site, and then announce that they acknowledge that RVing is real. Too bad.



Damn those rationalists!! Always raining on your unicorn parade!  If only everyone realized that science is useless, then you wouldn't have a computer to blather away with!

Listen, you claim to have proof.  Scientific proof, at that.  What you really have, at this point, is a list of extremely questionable websites with vested interests in encouraging delusional people to buy their severely overpriced, snake-oil bullshit products.

If you want to convince anyone, give us ONE good site, ONE good piece of evidence which conclusively proves, SCIENTIFICALLY, that your argument is correct.

ALL it takes is ONE.  Then we can discuss that one piece of evidence.  Quality over quantity.  OK?

----------


## The Wig

> Listen, you claim to have proof.  Scientific proof, at that.  What you really have, at this point, is a list of extremely questionable websites with vested interests in encouraging delusional people to buy their severely overpriced, snake-oil bullshit products.
> 
> If you want to convince anyone, give us ONE good site, ONE good piece of evidence which conclusively proves, SCIENTIFICALLY, that your argument is correct.
> 
> ALL it takes is ONE.  Then we can discuss that one piece of evidence.  Quality over quantity.  OK?



You fool! How dare you not take Wikipedia as a legitimate source for Psi! Either way, they won't give up a real scientific paper saying "Yes, it exists" because that paper doesn't exist.

----------


## thegnome54

> You fool! How dare you not take Wikipedia as a legitimate source for Psi! Either way, they won't give up a real scientific paper saying "Yes, it exists" because that paper doesn't exist.



That's what I'm banking on.  Moreover, they'll most likely supply us with a horrible piece of 'evidence' that we can then debunk and send them packing.

----------


## The Wig

> That's what I'm banking on.  Moreover, they'll most likely supply us with a horrible piece of 'evidence' that we can then debunk and send them packing.



These types of people can be debunked about a million times and still go on. See: Uri Geller, Sylvia Browne.

----------


## magicdood

Sigh, I still don't understand how dumb and unobservant some people can be!

I was of course talking about this post made  by der'morat'oneiro!!!

And I quote:

"Not true that there's no really good evidence for psi. Studies done at the Stanford Research Institute on Remote Viewing in the 70's-80's were rigorously controlled scientifically and provided undeniable evidence that RV is real. Not only that, but everyone has the latent ability to do it. The research is out there, if you're interested. It's probably personal bias that makes you think there's no proof. I also didn't believe it. I have seen it demonstrated and participated in demonstrations myself, and I have no doubts remaining about it. I recommend the book "Mind-Reach: Scientists Look at Psychic Abilities", by Russell Targ and Harold E. Puthoff."

There. Have at it! :p

----------


## thegnome54

> Studies done at the Stanford Research Institute on Remote Viewing in the 70's-80's were rigorously controlled scientifically and provided undeniable evidence that RV is real. Not only that, but everyone has the latent ability to do it. The research is out there, if you're interested.



I am.  Find it and gimme.  I refuse to go on a wild goose chase for this 'research', you have the burden of proof.  If you really want to convince all of us (and I'm perfectly open to evidence) then give us the actual research, not just a vague reference.

----------


## The Wig

> Sigh, I still don't understand how dumb and unobservant some people can be!
> 
> I was of course talking about this post made  by der'morat'oneiro!!!
> 
> And I quote:
> 
> "Not true that there's no really good evidence for psi. Studies done at the Stanford Research Institute on Remote Viewing in the 70's-80's were rigorously controlled scientifically and provided undeniable evidence that RV is real. Not only that, but everyone has the latent ability to do it. The research is out there, if you're interested. It's probably personal bias that makes you think there's no proof. I also didn't believe it. I have seen it demonstrated and participated in demonstrations myself, and I have no doubts remaining about it. I recommend the book "Mind-Reach: Scientists Look at Psychic Abilities", by Russell Targ and Harold E. Puthoff."
> 
> There. Have at it! :p



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Targ

Those two are also the guys who said Uri Geller was for real. Considering Uri Geller has recently (as in, a few years ago, or maybe even this year) been caught cheating on his own damn TV show, I cannot take those two idiots as proof. Sorry.

----------


## magicdood

Funny how you said nothing about the research done at Standford Research Institute. You wouldn't wanna be proven wrong now would you? 

And no, I'm not gonna go fetch you the information. I don't feel the need to prove anything to you. If you wanna find it, then go ahead, if not, that's fine as well. The choice is yours!  :wink2:

----------


## skysaw

> And no, I'm not gonna go fetch you the information. I don't feel the need to prove anything to you. If you wanna find it, then go ahead, if not, that's fine as well. The choice is yours!



Spoken like someone who knows perfectly well there is nothing to find.

----------


## magicdood

> Spoken like someone who knows perfectly well there is nothing to find.



Sounds like someone who is not willing to find the information due to the fact that they believe they will be proven wrong and that RV'ing exists. Yep, that's exactly what it sounds like to me.

----------


## The Wig

> Funny how you said nothing about the research done at Standford Research Institute. You wouldn't wanna be proven wrong now would you? 
> 
> And no, I'm not gonna go fetch you the information. I don't feel the need to prove anything to you. If you wanna find it, then go ahead, if not, that's fine as well. The choice is yours!



This is the guy that, by extension, you are saying is a real psychic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJSxsbToLeE

Now, I don't  care if you got that information from Stanford, Harvard, Duke, or any or any other school that stands in high regard to people, that fact is, those guys are unable to tell trickery from psychic ability. Excuse me if you're too dense to realize that.

----------


## magicdood

Jeez you must be dense. The standford information is separate from those two people. The person who posted it simply said that he had seen those two people perform it, not that it related to the scientific information. Glad that's been put into easier terms for you to understand though now.

I didn't post that paragraph, however, and I do not know what the information is regarding the Standford Research. I am just trying to clear up what the Guy who posted it meant.

----------


## The Wig

> Jeez you must be dense. The standford information is separate from those two people. The person who posted it simply said that he had seen those two people perform it, not that it related to the scientific information. Glad that's been put into easier terms for you to understand though now.
> 
> I didn't post that paragraph, however, and I do not know what the information is regarding the Standford Research. I am just trying to clear up what the Guy who posted it meant.



You obviously believe in the paragraph enough because it has scientists and a big 'ole university (Stanford) to endorse it though, huh? I have no idea who posted it and don't care since all it says is "Studies dont at Stanford show..." (paraphrased). Sorry if I don't take some obscure blurb as TRUE FACT.

----------


## magicdood

Neither did I....when did I endorse it? Never. All I said was that the two people who you were talking about, and the Standford Research were separate. And by the way, I'd say that scientists at a "big ole' universitity" are certainly people in the Scientific Community that you can trust. So, when you say that you want scientific proof, and then someone seemingly gives it to you, you won't even take the time to research the information?? That seems a bit weird to me. 

And also, stop accusing me of false things. It only discredits your argument. I wasn't talking about my belief in the research nor endorsing it...simply telling you that the names were separate from the College research.

----------


## The Wig

> Neither did I....when did I endorse it? Never. All I said was that the two people who you were talking about, and the Standford Research were separate.
> 
>  See, you accuse me of false things constantly, but it just discredits your arguments more and more so it's ok.



Why would you post a quote of something that "supports" your argument if you don't endorse it? 

I've since forgotten what the hell you are talking about and would like to reiterate that there has never been a post that shows a scientific source that says Psi is real.

----------


## skysaw

> And by the way, I'd say that scientists at a "big ole' universitity" are certainly people in the Scientific Community that you can trust. So, when you say that you want scientific proof, and then someone seemingly gives it to you, you won't even take the time to research the information?? That seems a bit weird to me.



No one gave out proof "seemingly" or otherwise. Showing the actual study supposedly done at Stanford would have gone a lot further to suggest there was a proof. Just claiming there had been one without showing us the study is a bit like believing scientists have proven the existence of Santa Clause just because I tell you that is so.

----------


## thegnome54

> Jeez you must be dense.



Listen buddy, in an argument, those who make outstanding claims need to supply outstanding proof.  You have as yet only suggested that proof exists, not actually shown it.  

If you refuse to back up your argument with actual information, you have no business pretending to argue, as your words are empty.

----------


## magicdood

I am not the one who posted that argument. Can you realize that? I was simply stating that you guys needed to realize that the two people you were talking about were not included in the Standford Research. I never said anything about the actual research. So please, stop acting like I did. I said you were dense because you couldn't seem to read the entire paragraph. If you had, you would have realized what you were saying. 

And no, I don't need to provide proof. Why should I? If this was a debate where I wanted to change your opinions then sure, maybe I would, but I don't. Again, it's all up to you. And I'm being 100% honest about that. You can believe what you want, but know, that when I say that I don't mind you not believing and that you can get the info yourself, I am being honest.

----------


## skysaw

> I am not the one who posted that argument. Can you realize that?



Yes, it's simple matter to see who posted what. It's equally simple to see that you believed the post was "proof." We were addressing YOU because we wanted to point out that your belief was incorrect.

----------


## magicdood

I already stated that I have not checked the information and I do not know the validity of the information. I have made that so clear it's unbelievable you still made that post skysaw. However, I'll let you know again that I posted what I did simply to help you guys understand the difference between the two different subjects of the post. I can show you again if you still don't understand?! :p

The point is, I honestly have no idea if it's proof/real or not. I'd think that you would be more inclined to believe that post simply because of the "big ole' university", but since no one has made an attempt to see if it's true, I guess not. And I for one don't care whether the information is valid or not since it doesn't change my view at all. Therefore, it would probably only be useful to the skeptics, which is why I haven't formed an opinion about it nor have I gone to find it.

----------


## skysaw

> I already stated that I have not checked the information and I do not know the validity of the information. I have made that so clear it's unbelievable you still made that post skysaw.



Yes, it's called "back-pedaling."





> Gumby made an earlier post listing many scientific websites providing *proof* towards parapsychology. Please go read his post before you post nonsense like that.







> Funny how you said nothing about the research done at Standford Research Institute. You wouldn't wanna be proven wrong now would you?



Looks to me like you were pretty convinced there was a study that supported your claims. Excuse us if we all read that wrong, but you sure seemed ready to hold up this invisible report and wave it in our faces.

----------


## magicdood

You again got confused. My post saying that I didn't know the validity of the information was directed to the post about Standford Research. 

I support the information that Gumby posted. I still don't understand how you can be screwing this all up. It's so easy to understand, and yet you still can't. 

And no, I never back peddled. It may have seemed that way because I had to keep clearing things up because you can't understand anything. You have to have everything put into "idiot terms" before you understand it. I'll try to write in less sophisticated terms so I don't seem like I'm back peddling when I'm only clarifying things so you understand them.

----------


## The Wig

> I am not the one who posted that argument. Can you realize that? I was simply stating that you guys needed to realize that the two people you were talking about were not included in the Standford Research. I never said anything about the actual research. So please, stop acting like I did. I said you were dense because you couldn't seem to read the entire paragraph. If you had, you would have realized what you were saying. 
> 
> And no, I don't need to provide proof. Why should I? If this was a debate where I wanted to change your opinions then sure, maybe I would, but I don't. Again, it's all up to you. And I'm being 100% honest about that. You can believe what you want, but know, that when I say that I don't mind you not believing and that you can get the info yourself, I am being honest.



Once again, you do care or else you wouldn't post so damn passionately about this. 





> And no, I never back peddled. It may have seemed that way because I had to keep clearing things up because you can't understand anything. You have to have everything put into "idiot terms" before you understand it. I'll try to write in less sophisticated terms so I don't seem like I'm back peddling when I'm only clarifying things so you understand them.



We can't understand what? That you are claiming that you have blown the hinges off modern science with no proof? Oh, we can understand that. What we can't understand is how you can come here time after time and post without any evidence or proof as to what you claim. That crap Gumby posted is unsubstantiated bullshit with a huge number links going to Psi sites (who have a vested interest) and some going to universities who don't conclusively prove anything.

So what the fuck do you want from us? To believe you because you told us? Sorry, it's not going to happen. Just like you flying isn't going to happen.

----------


## skysaw

I'll quote it one more time:





> Gumby made an earlier post listing many scientific websites providing *proof* towards parapsychology. Please go read his post before you post nonsense like that.



YOU said it was proof.

----------


## magicdood

I know. I said that I agree that that is proof. I was not talking about the Standford Research. I stand 100% by what I said. And wig, I'll stop talking to you cause you are obviously the least bright of the group. I've told you what I'm trying to do time and time again. The fact that you can't understand that shows that you have no place arguing something like this.

----------


## skysaw

> I know. I said that I agree that that is proof. I was not talking about the Standford Research. I stand 100% by what I said.



My apologies then... what did you agree was the proof?

----------


## magicdood

Oh, I agreed that the Post by gumby, which had those list of links was the proof. The standford Research however, I am not sure about since I have not yet read any of it nor do I plan to hehe. But I was just clearing up the guys paragraph. As to that research, I wonder if it would be pretty good cause I would assume that Standford is pretty respectable hehe.

----------


## skysaw

> Oh, I agreed that the Post by gumby, which had those list of links was the proof.



Thanks. Clear as mud. 
 ::rolleyes::

----------


## magicdood

What isn't clear haha. The post by gumby with all those links, had links that lead to proof! Hopefully that's clear as murky water now!  ::D:

----------


## skysaw

> What isn't clear haha. The post by gumby with all those links, had links that lead to proof!



Yes. Except, no... they didn't.

----------


## magicdood

Well then, you got me there. I trusted gumby's word haha. I've never even read the info from those links.  ::D:  I just guessed I didn't need to since I've already got all the proof I need.

----------


## skysaw

> Well then, you got me there. I trusted gumby's word haha. I've never even read the info from those links.  I just guessed I didn't need to since I've already got all the proof I need.



I have to thank you for owning up to this. This is all we were trying to say.

----------


## magicdood

This is all you were trying to say. I don't think the word "we" there was appropriate. But anyways, maybe that Standford research will be conclusive? Who knows. I personally have no idea where you can find scientific evidence, or if it exist since I have spent no time looking as it doesn't affect me. However, if you find some let me know.

Until then, I stick by my case saying that it's very real. :p

----------


## Oneironaught

> This is all you were trying to say. I don't think the word "we" there was appropriate.



It was more than appropriate because it's what every one has been telling you for pages on end.





> But anyways, maybe that Standford research will be conclusive? Who knows. I personally have no idea where you can find scientific evidence, or if it exist since I have spent no time looking as it doesn't affect me. However, if you find some let me know.



 :Clap:  I've got to hand it to you, that was some world-class backpedaling in the last few posts. Bravo.  :Clap: 

At least the others were able to back you into a corner and get you to admit that you have no clue. So that's good.

----------


## skysaw

> It was more than appropriate because it's what every one has been telling you for pages on end.
> 
> 
>  I've got to hand it to you, that was some world-class backpedaling in the last few posts. Bravo. 
> 
> At least the others were able to back you into a corner and get you to admit that you have no clue. So that's good.



Yes, all thoughts I had. 

And though I admit it's hard to resist piling on once he's owned up to speaking beyond his measure, perhaps we should cut him a little slack. It's rare to see someone (especially in these forums) admitting they spoke out of turn. Maybe by instead welcoming his admission, we can help further understanding and goodwill here in general.

----------


## magicdood

Sigh, you guys are still not getting it. I only back peddled as you would say, towards the information that gumby provided. Nothing else. I stick by 100&#37; to everything else I said.

And saying that I have no clue? Are you joking? I might not know about the information that was posted by another individual, I'll give you that. But I still know what I have experienced. You act like I'm backing up on everything I said. I stand by everything, just not the links posted from gumby. Jeez. Don't take everything out of context. Psi is still real haha. And of that, I'm sure. That will never change.

----------


## thegnome54

> Sigh, you guys are still not getting it. I only back peddled as you would say, towards the information that gumby provided. Nothing else. I stick by 100% to everything else I said.



If you insist... EVERYBODY IN THE PILE!!

You've said numerous times that you believe there is scientific evidence for psychic phenomena.  If you only 'backpedaled' on Gumby's list, then give us one of your _other_ pieces of evidence.

If you don't have any other evidence, or refuse to supply it to us, then what exactly are you sticking by 100%?  You haven't said anything other than claiming scientific proof.

----------


## magicdood

I am sticking to what I have said about my views about psi. I didn't give you my other piece of evidence as I don't have any. I gave what the other person posted, only to clear up what he meant. I don't have any proof for you, nor do I care to show any. Can I make it clearer? :p

I don't want to show you proof. I don't care that you don't believe. I have no proof to show you. I stick to what I have said about my opinions about psi.

----------


## skysaw

> I don't want to show you proof. I don't care that you don't believe. I have no proof to show you. I stick to what I have said about my opinions about psi.



I can live with this. There is no reason for me to question that this is indeed your opinion.

----------


## magicdood

Thank you. I am tired of people saying, "oh that's not true, you are just saying that." Finally someone who realizes that my opinions could differ from his own! Those are my truthful opinions, just so you know, and I'm glad one of you finally accepted that! 

Thank you,
Brandon

----------


## thegnome54

> Finally someone who realizes that my opinions could differ from his own! Those are my truthful opinions, just so you know, and I'm glad one of you finally accepted that!



Sure, you have a right to have blind faith.  I also have a right to question it, though you don't have to answer.

Just trying to encourage rational thought where I can.  The only rational position on this matter is that we cannot know for sure, but the lack of evidence suggests that it's wishful thinking.  You can believe whatever you want, but be aware that being entirely convinced that it's true without any good evidence is a dangerous path.

----------


## magicdood

No evidence! I have experienced it. I have sent a psi shape and color and the person identified it, correctly countless times. I have felt the affects of psi numerous times. I have moved many objects without touch of physical means. There is plenty of evidence that I have proved to my self. Not blind faith, I practiced and succeeded. I admit there was a little blind faith at the beginning before I got success, then I knew it was real. 

So I have evidence for myself. It's not wishful thinking. I have shown two friends psychokinesis in real life, and then they were able to do it. Simply not wishful thinking, but real evidence.

So yes, I do know for sure that it is real. It's now up to you to decide if you want to know for yourself or not. hehe...what an inspirational last sentence!!  ::D:

----------


## The Wig

> Thank you. I am tired of people saying, "oh that's not true, you are just saying that." Finally someone who realizes that my opinions could differ from his own! Those are my truthful opinions, just so you know, and I'm glad one of you finally accepted that! 
> 
> Thank you,
> Brandon



Tell me something Brandon, if your opinion is that the moon doesn't exist, should we take your seriously? I mean, I can accept you believe it, but that would just make you crazy.

Or to put it into something you actually believe in, you told us that you believe one day you can fly. And that is your opinion. Sorry if we don't take you as seriously as you'd like.

----------


## magicdood

That's fine, I don't mind. It doesn't bother me that you don't take me seriously. I should feel bad for you if anything, seeing as you don't get to experience what I do.  :p

No, I wouldn't take me seriously if I said the moon doesn't exist because it has been proven scientifically to exist. Of course, what I'm talking about hasn't been proven, so that means it still COULD BE REAL just hasn't been proven. Or I'm crazy. I think I already know what you believe, but my 2 normal friends saw quite differently. I have seen quite differently and I get along in life just fine! I'm actually not crazy. I just have an open mind.

----------


## thegnome54

> No evidence! I have experienced it. I have sent a psi shape and color and the person identified it, correctly countless times. I have felt the affects of psi numerous times. I have moved many objects without touch of physical means. There is plenty of evidence that I have proved to my self. Not blind faith, I practiced and succeeded.



Do you have any idea how much I want for this stuff to be real?  I ask you, if you really DO have these abilities, and you appreciate the value of the American dollar, why not take the million dollar challenge?  Hell, your friends can do it and get a million bucks, too!

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html
"At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event."


Honestly.  If you believe you have these abilities so strongly, why not go show the world, and get a million bucks while you're at it?

----------


## magicdood

Now, you have to have a scientific or good educational backround. And I have alraedy posted all this. And someone tried to get in and wasn't aloud. That challenge is flawed. And, I don't want money. Sorry. It's hard for someone like you who is attached to physical things to believe, but money isn't everything!

----------


## thegnome54

> 1) Now, you have to have a scientific or good educational backround. And I have alraedy posted all this. And someone tried to get in and wasn't aloud. That challenge is flawed. 2) And, I don't want money. Sorry. It's hard for someone like you who is attached to physical things to believe, but money isn't everything!



1) Bullshit.  You haven't tried.
2) Bullshit.  Everyone could use money.  Of course it's not everything, but if your abilities come as easy as you claim, then you can get it for free.  Why wouldn't you want free money?

Because you have no abilities and are making this up to sound interesting online.  That's what _I_ believe.

----------


## magicdood

You are free to believe that. In fact, I couldn't say that I wouldn't believe the same thing if I was in your position. You are making the "logical" belief. You are making sense. I don't blame you!

However, I know what I have experienced...simple as that. I'm cracking a smile right now. I just can't help. It's funny how you are telling me this stuff is fake. Ok sorry, I'm getting control of myself! 

Randi's challenge is flawed. You also MUST have a scientific back round or a high educational degree. That is true. It is not bullshit. Don't be ignorant.

----------


## thegnome54

> However, I know what I have experienced...simple as that. I'm cracking a smile right now. I just can't help. It's funny how you are telling me this stuff is fake. Ok sorry, I'm getting control of myself!



Anything scientifically true should be replicable.  You claim that you were able to get two of your friends to exhibit telekinesis.  Would you at least then be willing to explain to us your method of teaching them?  You should theoretically be able to get us to exhibit telekinesis as well, no?

And I'm not buying your excuse for the million dollar challenge.  Even if you don't want to do that for some strange reason, why not go on the news?  Get an article written about you in the paper?  Why not just walk into MIT one day and show off a bit?

----------


## magicdood

Cause that's not what life is all about believe it or not. All you want is fame and money. I have some morals, beliefs and goals.

----------


## thegnome54

> Cause that's not what life is all about believe it or not. All you want is fame and money. I have some morals, beliefs and goals.



Thank you for the baseless personal attack.  My passing interest in picking up a few thousand dollars and revolutionizing neuroscience as we know it is not indicative of poor moral fiber or lack of life goals.  At all.

Now teach me to move things with my mind.  ::rolleyes::

----------


## magicdood

Haha clever response. I give you that one.

----------


## The Wig

> That's fine, I don't mind. It doesn't bother me that you don't take me seriously. I should feel bad for you if anything, seeing as you don't get to experience what I do.  :p
> 
> No, I wouldn't take me seriously if I said the moon doesn't exist because it has been proven scientifically to exist. Of course, what I'm talking about hasn't been proven, so that means it still COULD BE REAL just hasn't been proven. Or I'm crazy. I think I already know what you believe, but my 2 normal friends saw quite differently. I have seen quite differently and I get along in life just fine! I'm actually not crazy. I just have an open mind.



Dear god sir, anything that hasn't been proven could be real. Having an open mind has nothing to do with believing in things, that are quite far fetched, that haven't been proven yet. Having an open mind is willingness to try different foods or music, having an open mind is willingness to accept that your scientific belief differs mine and maybe mine may be right (or yours) but the difference is those beliefs can be proven.

My inability to believe in thing that are basically scientific impossible does not mean I'm closed mind.

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## magicdood

But see, I don't have to worry about what maybe be right. I already know what is right. Don't you see. I'm 100% that I am right. And how could I not be?

What makes psi and pk far fetched. That's your view, your judgment. In reality, if you were born believing you could do pk, it wouldn't be far fetched. Society has made it that way, and you are just another follower. Sorry to be so blunt, and I don't mean to be mean, but you have been shaped. Far fetched is just a judgment that we as humans associate with something. In reality, it just is.

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## Nameless Epitaph

A man once told me there is a difference between knowledge and information. 
He said, information is just a bunch of facts, while knowledge is when someone has reinforced facts with experience. Information almost means nothing to someone if they haven't experienced it, and turned it into knowledge. 
I said to the man, "Yes, books are knowledge." He said no. Books are written by people who have experienced things. To you, that book is just useless information, to the author, that book is something he/she can believe, because he/she has experienced it. 

This discussion falls on the same field. 

Magicdood has experienced Psionics first hand, while the others, have not. Magicdood will always believe in Psionics because of what he has experienced, but those who haven't will never truly believe in what he says; what he says is just information to them. 

With all this said, this discussion is utterly pointless. You will never convince the other side with what you have to say.

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## The Wig

> A man once told me there is a difference between knowledge and information. 
> He said, information is just a bunch of facts, while knowledge is when someone has reinforced facts with experience. Information almost means nothing to someone if they haven't experienced it, and turned it into knowledge. 
> I said to the man, "Yes, books are knowledge." He said no. Books are written by people who have experienced things. To you, that book is just useless information, to the author, that book is something he/she can believe, because he/she has experienced it. 
> 
> This discussion falls on the same field. 
> 
> Magicdood has experienced Psionics first hand, while the others, have not. Magicdood will always believe in Psionics because of what he has experienced, but those who haven't will never truly believe in what he says; what he says is just information to them. 
> 
> With all this said, this discussion is utterly pointless. You will never convince the other side with what you have to say.



Welcome to the Internet. 





> But see, I don't have to worry about what maybe be right. I already know what is right. Don't you see. I'm 100% that I am right. And how could I not be?
> 
> What makes psi and pk far fetched. That's your view, your judgment. In reality, if you were born believing you could do pk, it wouldn't be far fetched. Society has made it that way, and you are just another follower. Sorry to be so blunt, and I don't mean to be mean, but you have been shaped. Far fetched is just a judgment that we as humans associate with something. In reality, it just is.



Oh god, shaped? Yeah, I've been shaped. Considering the majority of people are not even "born" from psi and the number of people that don't have psi compared to those who do is so large that if we say something is far fetched, it's far fetched. 

The fact is you made a claim that requires evidence for a reasonable person to even take serious and now you're getting all upset and saying it's real to you and you're sorry "we" can't experience it. I haven't been shaped. You're just mesmerized no one can believe in you're far fetched claims and then spout off "close minded!!!!!"

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## magicdood

This has been 17 pages of arguments, and no one has really swayed anyone. So with that in mind, I'm just going to stop responding as it is, as Nameless says, utterly pointless. No, I am not saying that I was lying, as I certainly wasn't, but I just don't think it's worth it to have a pointless debate. No one is giving an inch, and it's pointless to keep arguing.

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## Sornaensis

> Thank you for the baseless personal attack.  My passing interest in picking up a few thousand dollars and revolutionizing neuroscience as we know it is not indicative of poor moral fiber or lack of life goals.  At all.
> 
> *Now teach me to move things with my mind.*



Why don't you actually TRY? Face it, you'll never make Magidood budge. www.mytkgroup.tk  <--- If you really want to learn it, use my guide, it is my own, personal method.

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## Nameless Epitaph

> Welcome to the Internet.



Welcome to ignorance is more like it. :p

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## Sandform

I was told that if you don't believe you wont be able to do it.  Does that mean if you don't care you wont be able to do it either?  As in, I wonder if this is real, I think I'll try, but either way oh well, its not important.  Would someone be able to do it under those conditions? :p

Btw, most of the people who don't believe in psi and etc. are only this way because they were skeptical at first, then asked for proof, when no one could prove it, they assumed they were lieing.  Becuase if they weren't lieing why would they want to keep everyone else ignorant to this information?

Extra note: What all do you believe you can do?  (those of you that believe you can)

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## magicdood

Well, sandform, since I'm not arguing, I guess I'll post again, but nothing more argumentative.  ::D: 

I was skeptical at first, of course! Who woulnd't be?! It seems pretty "far fetched" from what we have been brought up to believe. I acknowladge it sounds pretty weird. However, I let myself believe in this stuff, practiced hard and saw results. And then, and only then, did my beliefs truly change for good. That's why I can understand your guy's argument. I've been there. But i've also progressed due to practice. 

I don't wanna get into what I "believe" I can do, as that will only start more fights!  :Cool: 

p.s. Were not keeping everyone ignorant. We've given plenty of information for you guys to start practicing and see results! We're not HOLDING anyone BACK. I don't understand where you come up with this stuff! :p

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## Sandform

I only meant that everyone wishes that psi and all these other things were real, but people who are logical wont believe its possible untill they see proof.  Everyone is angry at eachother becuase no one can prove it one way or the other, well that is it say, when a person disproves it, someone says something along the lines of "oh that is only because you don't believe, or you can't do it for some other reason."  Well how else is one to believe something to be true other than experiencing it?  I tried the psi wheel thing when I was younger, and it seemed like it worked.  But I think somewhere near the earlier posting of this thread someone said "do you realize how minute a disturbance around the object it takes to make a small piece of paper on a needle turn?"  It would seem if it is real it wouldn't be very hard to prove to be so, and thus logical thinking people find the idea rediculous.  (even in a seemingly empty of air chamber, even the smallest disturbance would make it spin.)

I tried to make that sound as least condescending as possible...but it is rather hard not to sound in such a way when making an arguement like the one that everyone has been making.





> p.s. Were not keeping everyone ignorant. We've given plenty of information for you guys to start practicing and see results! We're not HOLDING anyone BACK. I don't understand where you come up with this stuff



I could say the same thing about making your arm stretch to the moon.  I know it must be hard to understand for those on the psi side.  But if I wrote a guide that had a whole bunch of steps on how to stretch your arm to the moon would you take it seriously?  Even if I said, with an extreme authority that it was possible?  No, I doubt that you would...you would say prove it, or no dice.

But I concede to you the right to believe whatever you want.  I however will not change my mind untill someone proves it to me.

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## magicdood

I see what you are saying. I can understand about the arm to the moon thing. That's how I felt.  I can't stretch my arm to the moon! Then I practiced, and before I knew it, I was getting the freshest moon cheese.  :wink2: 

And by the way, I haven't just spun a psi wheel. There's been more than that, hehe. But I also know that you guys have a right to believe whatever you want, and it's fine for you to do so. So again, I ask, what is the point of this argument. No one is budging, no one is changing there opinions so I would say that was 17 pages ruined haha. :p

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## The Wig

> I see what you are saying. I can understand about the arm to the moon thing. That's how I felt.  I can't stretch my arm to the moon! Then I practiced, and before I knew it, I was getting the freshest moon cheese.



You're also going to be able to fly, David Copperfield. When is that gonna happen? That should be pretty easy to provide evidence for too.  :smiley:

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## thegnome54

> I see what you are saying. I can understand about the arm to the moon thing. That's how I felt.  I can't stretch my arm to the moon! Then I practiced, and before I knew it, I was getting the freshest moon cheese.



Hey, come on!  I'm not kidding!  You said you could teach your friends telekinesis.  Teach me.  I want to learn.  You should be able to teach me, right?  Or at least explain your methods, what it feels like, etc.?  ::bowdown::

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## magicdood

I could. Not to someone like you. But of course, I could.  :wink2: 

Glad to see the mood has at least lightened up to sarcastic jokes. That's better than arguing. Yes, an improvement. :p

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## The Wig

> I could. Not to someone like you. But of course, I could. 
> 
> Glad to see the mood has at least lightened up to sarcastic jokes. That's better than arguing. Yes, an improvement. :p



I kind of view sarcastic jokes as another form of arguing. The form of arguing where you know the other person will not listen to reason and you must resort to sarcasm. That form of arguing.

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## magicdood

It's better than what we were doing. Would you give it that much?

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## The Wig

> It's better than what we were doing. Would you give it that much?



Sure.

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## magicdood

Awesome.

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## Kromoh

Or maybe being sarcastic is just pointing out how ridiculous you think the other person is.


And 5 posts from th esame part unrelated to the main topic of the discussion is pretty much dodging arguments in my point of view.


Maybe everyone is out of arguments?

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## magicdood

Maybe after 17 pages we are sick of arguing. And oh btw, no one budged on their argument so maybe we came to our senses that it is pointless. At least, that's what I was thinking.  :wink2:

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## Kromoh

::D:  nice reply to my argument

tha tproves you are smart

doesn't prove wolves like ice cream though

/me hates ice cream

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## magicdood

Are you serious! Ice cream is awesome! Oh dang, I feel...an argument!

But wait, I am not stupid? Thank you. That is the first time I've been told that by someone who doesn't believe me. I can live with that. :p

Just for the record, I love ice cream. Discuss. lol.

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## Kromoh

Actually, you are not like those: "OMG OMg you dumb rock head science is soooo wrong OMG OMG!!!11!1oneeleven!! Science is wrong because we cannot see air!!!! OMG oMG go learn something you idiot"

You might not be right, but you are definitely not stupid.


What is the word?? ah yeah, mature  :tongue2: 

----------------------------------------

Back to topic:

EEEEW ice cream is sooo cold and tasteless and you make a holy mess when it eating it, and it melts and your hand gets piggy eew!!!1!oneeleven!!

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## magicdood

Ah, well thank you! Same to you. I believe in science. Everything they prove, is of course right! Tough to not agree with that, eh?

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## Kromoh

yeah pretty much  :vicious: 


Science depends on the hypothesis it was based on. If the hypothesis is right, the thesis is also right.

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## Gumby123psi

This is what I've been saying. If science prooves its right, its right.  :smiley:  Gnome, sure, I'll teach you. PM me.

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