# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity >  >  What Every Lucid Dreamer Should Know About Sleep Paralysis

## Thor

What Every Lucid Dreamer Should Know About Sleep Paralysis

Version 0.2

Many lucid dreamers who are trying to WILD are as part of that process trying to achieve something they call "sleep paralysis". What exactly is it? Why would they want it? And how important is it? I'll try to answer these three questions in this article.

By the way, if you think this article looks too long to read, just scroll down to "Conclusions".

What is Sleep Paralysis?

Unfortunately the term sleep paralysis can mean several different things to different people. I'll go through the main interpretations here. Some people would label this discussion as just semantics. I agree, except for the word "just". If a particular terminology creates confusion instead of enabling unambiguous communication, it has failed miserably.

*Sense 1: Sleep Paralysis as REM Atonia*

One interpretation of the term sleep paralysis is as a natural phenomenon that is more properly called REM atonia.[1] When you fall asleep you first go into non-REM sleep stages. In these sleep stages the tone (tension) of your skeletal muscles is reduced, that is, you become physically relaxed. You can still move, even though movements may be sluggish. For example, you can turn around in your sleep.

When you enter the REM stage, the skeletal muscles (except for the eye muscles and the diaphragm) become paralyzed. Since there is practically no muscle tone at all, this is called REM atonia. When you exit the REM stage, the muscles go back to the reduced muscle tone of non-REM sleep.

There are two ways that REM atonia could go wrong: it could be activated outside of REM sleep, or it could fail to be activated during REM sleep. The former type of failure results in a sleep disorder that I'll discuss in the next section. The latter type of failure is a more serious type of disorder called REM sleep behavior disorder (RBD) that causes people to act out their dreams during REM sleep.[2]

*Sense 2: Sleep Paralysis as a Sleep Disorder*

In the scientific and medical communities sleep paralysis usually refers to a sleep disorder.[3] The main symptom is that the subject is awake but unable to move or speak. This paralysis is usually accompanied by fear. The prevalent hypothesis is that sleep paralysis is REM atonia that has somehow been activated outside of REM sleep.[4]

When sleep paralysis occurs it is most often a brief episode when waking up and rarely when falling asleep. In rare cases the paralysis may last for as much as seven or eight minutes and be accompanied by nightmare like hallucinations.[5] This is also known as the "Old Hag" syndrome.

Sleep paralysis affects a minority of the population, and those who are affected experience it infrequently.[6]

*Sense 3: Sleep Paralysis as Hypnagogic Hallucinations*

There is not much justification for the use of the term "sleep paralysis" in the sense "hypnagogic hallucinations". However, LaBerge speaks of hypnagogic hallucinations as "the harbingers of REM sleep paralysis", so it's not unlikely that some people may have assumed they had to be the same phenomenon.

Hypnagogic states occur in the transition from wakefulness to sleep. By definition they are related to sleep stage 1, but they have also been known in some cases to occur in periods of reduced wakefulness before sleep. With respect to EEG, hypnagogic states are associated with a dropoff in alpha activity. Hypnic jerks (also known as sleep starts) occur in the hypnagogic states.[7]

There are also similar states in the transition from sleep to wakefulness called hypnopompic states. However, it's more difficult to tell hypnopompic states from dreams. Sometimes, for simplicity, hypnopompic states are also called hypnagogic.

In hypnagogic states people may experience hallucinations. Hallucinations, including hypnagogic ones, are experienced as if you had actually perceived them through your senses, and they may involve any and all of your senses.[7] The most common ones are:
 *Visual HH*, also known as hypnagogic imagery (HI), are typically faces, landscapes, geometric shapes. *Auditory HH* are typically roaring sounds, explosions, people shouting. *Kinesthetic, vestibular, tactile HH* are typically vibrations, the feeling of being electrocuted (sans the pain), a sense of extreme acceleration.

*Sense 4: Sleep Paralysis as an Umbrella Term*

This interpretation includes a hodgepodge of any or all of the preceding interpretations.

Why Would Lucid Dreamers Want Sleep Paralysis?

In order to discuss this the distinctions made in the previous section are crucial. So let's go through them one by one.

*Sense 1: Why Would LDers Want Sleep Paralysis as in REM Atonia?*

Every normal person will get REM atonia during REM sleep, and only during REM sleep. They will also be oblivious to the fact that they are in REM atonia.

In wakefulness your sensory perceptions are externally generated from your sensory organs, and you control your physical body through your voluntary muscles. In REM sleep the exact opposite is the case: your sensory perceptions are internally generated, and you control your dream body. [8] For this reason you won't be aware that your body is paralyzed.

So wanting sleep paralysis as REM atonia is pointless. If you have a normal physiology you are guaranteed to get REM atonia in REM sleep, but you won't be aware of this since your entire experience will be internally generated during that entire period of time.

*Sense 2: Why Would LDers Want Sleep Paralysis as in the Sleep Disorder?*

People who suffer from sleep paralysis generally do not want it because it's usually very frightening. A minority of the population will get sleep paralysis sometimes. The proportion of the population that experience sleep paralysis regularly is very small.

Those who suffer from sleep paralysis may exploit it to launch into WILDs when they get it. Those who don't have this disorder will likely not get it by wishing for it. You won't be able to "will" yourself into changing your sleep physiology so that you get REM atonia outside of REM sleep. At least I'm not aware of any kind of research that could confirm such an effect.

So wanting sleep paralysis as a disorder is also pointless. If you have it you can use it to your advantage, and if you don't have it you won't get it by thinking hard about it.

*Sense 3: Why Would LDers Want Sleep Paralysis as in Hypnagogic Hallucinations?*

Whenever we fall asleep we pass through hypnagogic states. We are not usually aware of this, or at least we don't remember it. But LDers who want to WILD need to maintain awareness all the way into sleep, so it's highly likely that if they get any HH they will recall it because they were aware at the time.

Thus, wanting HH may make some sense for LDers. It's not that HH will buy them anything in itself (unless they like the HH for their own sake), but if they get HH it's a symptom that they have managed to keep themselves "awake" beyond the point where most people lose awareness. And that's a good sign, because it means that they may not be far away from entering a dream.

On the other hand this may cause problems too, because not everyone gets any significant HH, at least not every time they fall asleep. So if you think you should get these HH and then you don't maybe that will stop you in your efforts and discourage you from trying again.

The conclusion is that if you get HH it's an indication that you're on the right track, but if you don't get them it's _not_ an indication that you're on the wrong track. HH are a potential side effect of WILDing and absence of HH doesn't mean anything. BillyBob, author of several WILD guides on DV, explicitly recommends that you don't focus on HH, because that focus may actually prevent you from entering the dream.[9]

*Sense 4: Why Would LDers Want Sleep Paralysis as in the Umbrella Term?*

This is harder to answer. Since sleep paralysis in this sense is a hodgepodge of different things whose content may vary a lot between individuals, it's not at all clear what it is they want.

Many LDers seem to conflate hypnagogic hallucinations and REM atonia. Hypnagogic hallucinations belong exclusively to sleep stage 1 (or in rare cases wakefulness)[7]. And REM atonia belongs exclusively to the REM stage.[14] Since sleep stages 1 and REM are distinct, these two phenomena do not normally occur simultaneously, except in the case of sleep paralysis as a disorder.

So is it possible that REM could follow shortly after falling asleep? Yes, after a brief awakening (like a few tens of seconds) from REM sleep you can expect to fall right back into REM sleep.[13] After a longer awakening (one and a half hours) it usually takes at least fifteen minutes to reach REM.[10] I don't have any hard data for a WBTB awakening (30 to 60 minutes), but it would be reasonable to expect the time needed to reach REM to be closer to the latter interval than the former.

Many people who WILD and enter a dream after falling asleep consciously, conclude that they must be in REM sleep. However, this does not follow, because it's possible to dream in any sleep stage. Generally the most vivid dreams occur in REM sleep, but it's possible to dream in any sleep stage. Especially dreams in stages 1 and 2 can be indistinguishable from REM dreams.[11] Even lucid dreams have been verified in sleep stages 1 and 2.[12] So a dream, even a vivid or lucid one, does not necessarily mean that you're in REM sleep.

Now if REM atonia is required to keep us from acting out our dreams and we can dream in any sleep stage, then why don't we need atonia in _all_ sleep stages? I'm not sure anyone knows the complete answer, but at least it's a fact that the brain is in a very different state in REM sleep compared to non-REM sleep.[8] Also, in the cases of sleepwalking and sleep terrors, which both occur in deep sleep (stages 3 and 4), people _do_ move around in their sleep.

Conclusions

Before you decide that sleep paralysis is something you desperately need, take a moment to consider the following facts. Of the 333 pages of _Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming_, LaBerge devotes only about four pages in total to sleep paralysis (either as REM atonia or the disorder). He describes eight different techniques to induce WILDs, but only two of them even mention sleep paralysis. And BillyBob, a seasoned lucid dreamer on DV and author of several WILD guides, explicitly recommends not to focus on sleep paralysis.

If you are one of the few people who get sleep paralysis as a disorder, you can know that although it may be scary, it's not in any way dangerous. And you can even turn it into an advantage by initiating WILDs from this state.

If you belong to the majority who don't get sleep paralysis as a disorder, don't sweat it. You will get REM atonia for sure, but by that time your experience is entirely internally generated and you won't have any awareness of your physical body. You _may_ get hypnagogic hallucinations, and if you get them you'll know that you're on the right path to a WILD. If you don't get them, don't worry; you'll be able to WILD just fine anyway, as thousands of people have done before you.

Acknowledgements

Thanks to those who challenged my posts on this subject and made me do more research, and to those who commented on version 0.1. Special thanks to Shift who dug up facts and references and prodded me to write this article.


* * *

Notes and References

*1*

"*REM atonia abbrev.* An inhibition of skeletal muscles (but not extra-ocular muscles) during REM sleep, manifested as complete atonia, that is governed by a small inhibitory centre in the pons called the subcoerulear nucleus and by the magnocellular nucleus in the medulla oblongata to which it is connected, and that prevents spinal nerves from activating skeletal muscles and thereby stops dreams from being acted out by the sleeper. The only observable bodily movements in a person in REM sleep, apart from breathing and rapid eye movements, are occasional twitches of the extremities, except in people with REM behaviour disorder."
Excerpt from A Dictionary of Psychology 2001, originally published by Oxford University Press 2001.

Stephen LaBerge, researcher and author of the classical work _Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming_, is one notable expert who uses the term "sleep paralysis" in the sense of "REM atonia".

*2*

"*REM behaviour disorder abbrev.* A condition is which REM atonia does not function during episodes of dreaming. People with this disorder thrash violently about, leap out of bed, and sometimes attack bed-partners during REM sleep. It is assumed to be due to a lesion in the subcoerulear nucleus or the magnocellular nucleus."
Excerpt from A Dictionary of Psychology 2001, originally published by Oxford University Press 2001.

For more information, see REM Sleep Behavior Disorder at SleepEducation.com.

*3*

"*sleep paralysis n.* A condition in which REM atonia is experienced in the waking state. Such episodes typically occur immediately after waking or shortly before falling asleep. They are often frightening and may be accompanied by out-of-body experiences."
Excerpt from A Dictionary of Psychology 2001, originally published by Oxford University Press 2001.

Some people who use the term "sleep paralysis" to mean REM atonia use the term "isolated sleep paralysis" to refer to the disorder, in order to distinguish the two concepts. LaBerge, in _Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming_, uses "sleep paralysis" to refer to both the disorder and REM atonia.

For more information, see Sleep Paralysis at SleepEducation.com.

*4*

Physiology of REM sleep, cataplexy, and sleep paralysis. Hishikawa Y, Shimizu T.

*5*

There are two major types of sleep paralysis.
 Common sleep paralysis (CSP), also known as typical sleep paralysis. CSP is short lasting, and it usually occurs when waking up and rarely when falling asleep. Hallucinatory sleep paralysis (HSP), also known as hypnagogic sleep paralysis. HSP is accompanied by nightmare like hallucinations. HSP can last as long as seven or eight minutes. HSP is rare and seems to be geographically episodic.
For more information, see Sleep Paralysis at Night Terrors Resource Center.

*6*

Scientific studies say that the risk of getting sleep paralysis is small:

"Isolated Sleep Paralysis (SP) occurs at least once in a lifetime in 40-50&#37; of normal subjects, while as a chronic complaint it is an uncommon and scarcely known disorder."
Buzzi G, Cirignotta F. Isolated sleep paralysis: a web survey. Sleep Res Online 2000;3(2):61-6.

"To further examine the incidence of sleep paralysis, the responses of 80 first-year medical students, 16.25% had experienced predormital, postdormital, or both types of sleep paralysis. These episodes occurred infrequently-- only once or twice for most of these students."
Penn NE, Kripke DF, Scharff J. Sleep paralysis among medical students. J Psychol 1981 Mar;107 pt 2:247-52.

*7*

"Hypnagogic states are transient states of decreased wakefulness characterized by short episodes of dreamlike sensory experience. These phenomena were first described by J. M&#252;ller (1826/1967) as "fantastic visual phenomena" (p. 20ff) occurring usually, but not exclusively, at sleep onset. Maury (1848) coined for them the term hypnagogic, from Greek hypnos (sleep) and agogo (I bring). Schacter (1976) described them as "dreamlets." Subjects usually report short visual percepts like faces, landscapes, and natural or social scenes that may or may not be related to previous daytime experience. These percepts may be of pseudohallucinatory (i.e., with preserved insight of unreality) or truly hallucinatory (i.e., experienced as if real) character. In contrast to dreams, hypnagogic experiences are usually rather static, without narrative content, and the subject is not involved as an actor (cf. Sleep and Dreaming section)."
"Similar phenomena occurring at the transition from sleep to wakefulness are called hypnopompic (Myers, 1904); here, however, it is difficult to differentiate hypnagogic imagery from remnants of dream imagery. Hypnagogic-like phenomena may also occur in daytime periods of reduced wakefulness and possibly superimposed over adequate sensory perceptions of the environment (cf. Mavromatis, 1987; Schacter, 1976; Sherwood, 2002). Subjective experience in hypnagogic states comprises vivid, mostly very brief episodes of usually visual (86%) and acoustical (8%) imagery with other sensory modalities occurring less frequently and with an average recall rate of 35%. There is more awareness of the real situation in hypnagogic states than in dreaming (Hori et al., 1994). The prevalence for frequent hypnagogic states is estimated at 37% (Ohayon, Priest, Caulet, & Guilleminault, 1996). Behavioral correlates are sparse, for example, leg or arm jerks ("sleep starts") associated with illusionary body movements (American Sleep Disorders Association, 1990; Sherwood, 2002). As for physiological correlates, an association between short flashes of dreamlike imagery and drop-offs in alpha EEG activity was first noticed by Davis et al. (1937). By definition, hypnagogic states are related to sleep onset, that is, Sleep Stage 1 according to Rechtschaffen and Kales (1968), but may occur even with presleep alpha EEG (Foulkes & Schmidt, 1983; Foulkes & Vogel, 1965). Kuhlo and Lehmann (1964) studied hypnagogic states and their EEG correlates during drowsiness and sleep onset: Spontaneous, transient, fragmentary nonemotional visual and auditory impressions of varying complexity were reported that were mostly experienced as unreal and were associated with flattened or decelerated alpha and/or slow theta EEG activity; the authors postulated a gradual progression from hypnagogic hallucinations to fragmentary dreams (cf. Lehmann et al., 1995)."
Dieter Vaitl et al. Psychobiology of Altered States of Consciousness. Psychological Bulletin 2005, Vol. 131, No. 1.

*8*

REM sleep is in many ways the polar opposite of wakefulness, with non-REM sleep falling somewhere in the middle. In particular, in REM sleep the sensory experience and body control are maximally internal

Awake state:
 Brain chemistry is modulated by norepinephrine and serotonin You perceive the world through your senses and control your physical body
REM sleep:
 Brain chemistry is modulated by choline Perceptions are internally generated and you control your dream body. Sensory input is by no means impossible in REM sleep, but the threshold is higher than in the other states.
You may think of the states of sleep falling along a line like this:

Wakefulness --------------- non-REM ----------------- REM
The notorious exception to this is the activation level of the brain. If you look at the brain waves on an EEG machine, REM sleep EEG looks very similar to EEG of wakefulness (high frequency, low amplitude), whereas the EEG of non-REM sleep is very different from both of the others (low frequency, high amplitude). So with respect to EEG, the states of sleep look something like this:

Wakefulness, REM ----------------------------------- non-REM
Source: Hobson, J. Allan, Pace-Schott, E. and Stickgold, R., Dreaming and the Brain: Toward a Cognitive Neuroscience of Conscious States, Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 23 (6), 2000.

*9*

DV member BillyBob is the author of several WILD guides. Here are some excerpts:

"When learning to WILD, the majority of people learn about these crAzY things like "Hypnogogic Imagery, Sleep Paralysis, Auditory Hallucinations, etc." and are then told that these things "lead up to" dreams. What happens when they lay down to WILD? They subconsciously tell themselves "watch out for hypnogogia/paralysis/voices as these things mean you are closer to lucidity!" This is the exact equivalent of what the prehistoric human thought. This is the exact thing the system watches for to keep you from falling into your dreams!"
BillyBob. WILD.

"For starters, you absolutely should NOT be waiting for HI or any other thing that people say they see, I myself rarely feel SP or see HI, I don't "see" anything because I'm so focused on my breathing."
BillyBob. WILD - The Guide To End All Guides

*10*

REM latency is the time span between the start of sleeping and the start of REM sleep. This is normally 90 minutes. In a multiple sleep latency test (MSLT) the subject tries to take five daytime naps at two hour intervals after having first slept for at least six hours during the night. The first nap trial begins between 1.5 and three hours after waking up.

Source: MSLT at SleepEducation.com.

"In an MSLT, REM sleep during the first 15 minutes of sleep is called sleep onset REM (SOREM). The occurrence of SOREM is indicative of severe sleep deprivation or narcolepsy and is almost exclusive to these conditions."
Source: Narcolepsy at Sleepchannel.

Unfortunately the REM latency test or the MSLT do not exactly duplicate the typical situation for lucid dreaming attempts, which normally employ the wake back to bed (WBTB) technique.

*11*

"It is generally accepted that NREM mentation which is indistinguishable from REM dreaming does indeed occur. Monroe et al's (1965) widely cited study suggests that approximately 10-30% of NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams (Rechtschaffen 1973). Even Hobson accepts that 5-10% of NREM dream reports are `indistinguishable by any criterion from those obtained from post-REM awakenings' (Hobson 1988, p. 143). If we adjust this conservative figure to account for the fact that NREM sleep occupies approximately 75% of total sleep time, this implies that roughly one quarter of all REM-like dreams occur outside of REM sleep."
This is an example of a non-REM dream report:

"I was with my mother in a public library. I wanted her to steal something for me. I've got to try and remember what it was, because it was something extraordinary, something like a buffalo head that was in this museum. I had told my mother previously that I wanted this head and she said, all right, you know, we'll see what we can do about it. And she met me in the library, part of which was a museum. And I remember telling my mother to please lower her voice and she insisted on talking even more loudly. And I said, if you don't, of course, you'll never be able to take the buffalo head. Everyone will turn around and look at you. Well, when we got to the place where the buffalo head was, it was surrounded by other strange things. There was a little sort of smock that little boys used to wear at the beginning of the century. And one of the women who worked at the library came up to me and said, dear, I haven't been able to sell this smock. And I remember saying to her, well, why don't you wear it then? For some reason or other I had to leave my mother alone, and she had to continue with the buffalo head project all by herself. Then I left the library and went outside, and there were groups of people just sitting on the grass listening to music."
Solms, Mark. Dreaming and REM Sleep Are Controlled by Different Brain Mechanisms, Behavioral and Brain Sciences 23 (6), 2000.

"Sleep Onset (SO). Perhaps the most vivid NREM mentation reports have been collected from SO stages. These include images from the Rechtschaffen and Kales stages 1 and 2 of sleep (Cicogna et al. 1991; Foulkes et al. 1966; Foulkes & Vogel 1965; Vogel 1991; Lehmann et al. 1995) as well as from the stages of a more detailed SO scoring grid (Hori et al. 1994; Nielsen et al. 1995). SO mentation is remarkable because it can equal or surpass in frequency and length mentation from REM sleep (Foulkes et al. 1966; Vogel et al. 1966; Foulkes & Vogel 1965; Vogel 1978; Foulkes 1982). Moreover, much SO mentation (from 31-76% depending upon EEG features) is clearly hallucinatory dreaming as opposed to isolated scenes, flashes or nonhallucinated images (Vogel 1978)."
Nielsen, Tore A. Mentation in REM and NREM Sleep: A review and possible reconciliation of two models, Behavioral and Brain Sciences 23 (6), 2000.

*12*

"After being instructed in the method of lucid dream induction (MILD) described by LaBerge (1980b) the subjects were recorded from 2 to 20 nights each. In the course of the 34 nights of the study, 35 lucid dreams were reported subsequent to spontaneous awakening from various stages of sleep as follows: REM sleep 32 times, NREM Stage-1, twice, and during the transition from NREM Stage-2 to REM, once."
Stephen LaBerge, Ph.D. Lucid Dreaming: Psychophysiological Studies of Consciousness during REM Sleep. In Bootzen, R. R., Kihlstrom, J.F. & Schacter, D.L., (Eds.) Sleep and Cognition. Washington, D.C.: American Psychological Association, 1990 (pp. 109-126).

*13*

"As was mentioned earlier, momentary intrusions of wakefulness occur very commonly during the normal course of REM sleep and it had been proposed by Schwartz and Lefebvre (1973) that lucid dreaming occurs during these micro-awakenings. However, LaBerge et al.'s (1981,1986) data indicates that while lucid dreams do not take place during interludes of wakefulness within REM periods, a minority of lucid dreams (WILDs) are initiated from these moments of transitory arousal, with the WILDs continuing in subsequent undisturbed REM sleep."
*14*

"The activity of the mental and hyoid muscles, and the H-reflex were examined during nocturnal sleep and daytime naps of narcoleptic and normal subjects.

The continuous, tonic EMG discharges, which were observed in all subjects in the awake state, decreased in parallel with deepening of sleep but disappeared only during the rapid eye movements (REM) period, which occurred at the sleep onset in narcoleptics and late in nocturnal sleep in normal and narcoleptic subjects. During the REM period, only transient, phasic EMG discharges of low voltage were occasionally observed.

The H-reflex also decreased in amplitude when the subjects fell asleep. The degree of its decrement was slight in the drowsy stage and was greater in light and deep sleep. During the REM period which occurred at the sleep onset in narcoleptics and late in nocturnal sleep in normal and narcoleptic subjects, the decrement was most prominent and consistent and the H-reflex would completely disappear."
Yasuo Hishikawa M.D., Noboru Sumitsuji M.D., Kazuo Matsumoto M.D. and Ziro Kaneko M.D. H-reflex and EMG of the mental and hyoid muscles during sleep, with special reference to narcolepsy. Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology, 18 (5), April 1965, pp. 487-492.


*Spoiler* for _Version 0.1_: 



What Every Lucid Dreamer Should Know About Sleep Paralysis

Version 0.1

Many lucid dreamers who are trying to WILD are in the same process trying to achieve something they call "sleep paralysis". What exactly is it? And why would they want it? I'll try to answer these two questions in this article.

What is Sleep Paralysis?

Unfortunately the term sleep paralysis can mean several different things to different people. I'll go through the main interpretations here. Some people would label this discussion as just semantics. I agree, except for the word "just". If a particular terminology creates confusion instead of enabling unambiguous communication, it has failed miserably.

*Sense 1: Sleep Paralysis as REM Atonia*

One interpretation of the term sleep paralysis is as a natural phenomenon that is more properly called REM atonia.[1] When you fall asleep you first go into non-REM sleep stages. In these sleep stages the tone (tension) of your skeletal muscles is reduced, that is, you become physically relaxed. You can still move, even though movements may be sluggish. For example, you can turn around in your sleep. When you enter the REM stage, the skeletal muscles (except for the eye muscles) become paralyzed. This paralysis is not total; whereas you won't be able to move any large muscle groups you can still wiggle your fingers. Since there is practically no muscle tone at all, this is called REM atonia. When you exit the REM stage, the muscles go back to the reduced muscle tone of non-REM sleep.

There are two ways that REM atonia could go wrong: it could be activated outside of REM sleep, or it could fail to be activated during REM sleep. The former type of failure results in a sleep disorder that I'll discuss in the next section. The latter type of failure is a more serious type of disorder called REM sleep behavior disorder (RBD) that causes people to act out their dreams during REM sleep.[2]

*Sense 2: Sleep Paralysis as a Sleep Disorder*

In the scientific and medical communities sleep paralysis usually refers to a sleep disorder.[3] The main symptom is that the subject is awake but unable to move or speak. This paralysis is usually accompanied by fear. The prevalent hypothesis is that sleep paralysis is REM atonia that has somehow been activated outside of REM sleep.[4]

When sleep paralysis occurs it is most often a brief episode when waking up and rarely when falling asleep. In rare cases the paralysis may last for as much as seven or eight minutes and be accompanied by nightmare like hallucinations.[5] This is also known as the "Old Hag" syndrome.

Sleep paralysis affects a minority of the population, and those who are affected experience it infrequently.[6]

*Sense 3: Sleep Paralysis as Hypnagogic Hallucinations*

Hypnagogic states occur in the transition from wakefulness to sleep. By definition they are related to sleep stage 1, but they have also been known in some cases to occur in periods of reduced wakefulness before sleep. With respect to EEG, hypnagogic states are associated with a dropoff in alpha activity. Hypnic jerks (also known as sleep starts) occur in the hypnagogic states.[7]

There are also similar states in the transition from sleep to wakefulness called hypnopompic states. However, it's more difficult to tell hypnopompic states from dreams. Sometimes, for simplicity, hypnopompic states are also called hypnagogic.

In hypnagogic states people may experience hallucinations. Hallucinations, including hypnagogic ones, are experienced as if you had actually perceived them through your senses. If you fully believe it to be real it is a true hallucination, whereas if you have some insight that it's not real it's a pseudohallucination. Hypnagogic hallucinations may involve any and all of your senses.[7]

Visual HH are often called hypnagogic imagery (HI). They are typically faces, landscapes, geometric shapes.

Auditory HH are typically roaring sounds, explosions, people shouting.

Kinesthetic, vestibular, tactile HH are typically vibrations, the feeling of being electrocuted (sans the pain), a sense of extreme acceleration.

*Sense 4: Sleep Paralysis as an Umbrella Term*

This interpretation includes a hodgepodge of any or all of the preceding interpretations.

Why Would LDers Want Sleep Paralysis?

In order to discuss this, the distinctions made in the previous section are crucial. So let's go through them in order.

*Sense 1: Why Would LDers Want Sleep Paralysis as in REM Atonia?*

Every normal person will get REM atonia during REM sleep, and only during REM sleep. They will also be oblivious to this fact. In order to understand why, we need to look a bit closer at the physiology of sleep.

REM sleep is, with one exception, the polar opposite of wakefulness, with non-REM sleep falling somewhere in the middle. This is especially true with respect to your sensory experience. In wakefulness your sensory perceptions are externally generated from your sensory organs, and you control your physical body through your voluntary muscles. Conversely, in REM sleep your sensory perceptions are internally generated, and you control your dream body.[8] For this reason you won't be aware that your body is paralyzed.

So wanting sleep paralysis as REM atonia is pointless. If you have a normal physiology you are guaranteed to get REM atonia in REM sleep, but you won't be aware of this since your entire experience will be internally generated during that entire period of time.

*Sense 2: Why Would LDers Want Sleep Paralysis as in a Sleep Disorder?*

People who suffer from sleep paralysis generally do not want it because it's usually very frightening. A minority of the population will get sleep paralysis sometimes. The proportion of the population that experience sleep paralysis regularly is very small.

Those who suffer from sleep paralysis may exploit it to launch into WILDs when they get it. Those who don't have this disorder will likely not get it by wishing for it. You won't be able to "will" yourself into changing your sleep physiology so that you get REM atonia outside of REM sleep. At least I'm not aware of any kind of research that could confirm such an effect.

So wanting sleep paralysis as a disorder is also pointless. If you have it you can use it to your advantage, and if you don't have it you won't get it by thinking hard about it.

*Sense 3: Why Would LDers Want Sleep Paralysis as in Hypnagogic Hallucinations?*

Whenever we fall asleep we pass through hypnagogic states. We are not usually aware of this, or at least we don't remember it. But LDers who want to WILD need to maintain awareness all the way into sleep. In other words they need to stay "awake" even though their body falls asleep. Thus, it is highly likely that if they get any HH, they will recall it because they were aware at the time.

Thus, wanting HH may make some sense for LDers. It's not that HH will buy them anything in itself (unless they like the HH for their own sake), but if they get HH it's a symptom that they have managed to keep themselves "awake" beyond the point where most people lose awareness. And that's a good sign, because it means that they may not be far away from entering a dream.

On the other hand this may cause problems too, because not everyone gets any significant HH, at least not every time they fall asleep. So if you think you should get these HH and you don't maybe that will stop you in your efforts and discourage you from trying again.

The conclusion is that if you get HH it's an indication that you're on the right track, but if you don't get them it's _not_ an indication that you're on the wrong track. HH are a potential side effect of WILDing and the absence of HH doesn't mean anything. BillyBob, author of several WILD guides on DV, explicitly recommends that you don't focus on HH, because that focus may actually prevent you from entering the dream.[9]

*Sense 4: Why Would LDers Want Sleep Paralysis as in the Umbrella Term?*

This is harder to answer. Since sleep paralysis in this sense is a hodgepodge of different things whose content may vary a lot between individuals, it is not at all clear what they want.

Many LDers and people who write WILD guides seem to conflate REM atonia and hypnagogic hallucinations. But hypnagogic hallucinations and REM atonia do not occur at the same time, because hypnagogic hallucinations belong exclusively to sleep stage 1 (or in rare cases wakefulness), whereas REM atonia belongs exclusively to the REM stage. Since sleep stages 1 and REM are distinct, these two phenomena do not normally occur simultaneously. The exception is people who are suffering from sleep paralysis as a disorder.

So is it possible that REM could follow shortly after sleep stage 1? Maybe after a very brief awakening it could. However REM is usually entered via sleep stage 2, and REM latency tests suggest that when normal people fall asleep after having been awake for hours, they do not enter REM sleep immediately; it usually takes at least fifteen minutes.[10]

Many people who WILD and enter a dream after falling asleep consciously, conclude that they must be in REM sleep. However, this does not follow, because it's possible to dream in any sleep stage. Generally the most vivid dreams occur in REM sleep, but dreams in other sleep stages, especially stages 1 and 2, can be indistinguishable from REM dreams.[11] Even lucid dreams have been verified in sleep stages 1 and 2.[12] So a dream, even a vivid or lucid one, does not necessarily mean that you're in REM sleep.

Conclusions

If you are one of the few people who get sleep paralysis as a disorder, you can know that even though it may be scary, it's not in any way dangerous. And you can even turn it into an advantage by initiating WILDs from this state.

If you belong to the majority who don't have sleep paralysis as a disorder, don't sweat it. You will get REM atonia for sure, but by that time your experience is entirely internally generated and you won't have any awareness of your physical body. You _may_ get hypnagogic hallucinations, and if you get them you'll know that you're on the right path to a WILD. If you don't get them, don't worry; you'll be able to WILD just fine anyway, as thousands of people have done before you.

Acknowledgements

Thanks to those who challenged my posts on this subject and made me do more research. Special thanks to Shift who dug up facts and references and prodded me to write this article.

Notes and References

*1*

_"REM atonia abbrev. An inhibition of skeletal muscles (but not extra-ocular muscles) during REM sleep, manifested as complete atonia, that is governed by a small inhibitory centre in the pons called the subcoerulear nucleus and by the magnocellular nucleus in the medulla oblongata to which it is connected, and that prevents spinal nerves from activating skeletal muscles and thereby stops dreams from being acted out by the sleeper. The only observable bodily movements in a person in REM sleep, apart from breathing and rapid eye movements, are occasional twitches of the extremities, except in people with REM behaviour disorder."_
Excerpt from A Dictionary of Psychology 2001, originally published by Oxford University Press 2001.

Stephen LaBerge, researcher and author of the classical work Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, is one notable expert who uses the term "sleep paralysis" in the sense of "REM atonia".

*2*

_"REM behaviour disorder abbrev. A condition is which REM atonia does not function during episodes of dreaming. People with this disorder thrash violently about, leap out of bed, and sometimes attack bed-partners during REM sleep. It is assumed to be due to a lesion in the subcoerulear nucleus or the magnocellular nucleus."_
Excerpt from A Dictionary of Psychology 2001, originally published by Oxford University Press 2001.

For more information, see REM Sleep Behavior Disorder at SleepEducation.com.

*3*

_"sleep paralysis n. A condition in which REM atonia is experienced in the waking state. Such episodes typically occur immediately after waking or shortly before falling asleep. They are often frightening and may be accompanied by out-of-body experiences."_
Excerpt from A Dictionary of Psychology 2001, originally published by Oxford University Press 2001.

Some people who use the term "sleep paralysis" to mean REM atonia use the term "isolated sleep paralysis" to refer to the disorder, in order to distinguish the two concepts.

For more information, see Sleep Paralysis at SleepEducation.com.

*4*

Physiology of REM sleep, cataplexy, and sleep paralysis. Hishikawa Y, Shimizu T.

*5*

There are two major types of sleep paralysis.
 Common sleep paralysis (CSP), also known as typical sleep paralysis. CSP is short lasting, and it usually occurs when waking up and rarely when falling asleep. Hallucinatory sleep paralysis (HSP), also known as hypnagogic sleep paralysis. HSP is accompanied by nightmare like hallucinations. HSP can last as long as seven or eight minutes. HSP is rare and seems to be geographically episodic.
For more information, see Sleep Paralysis at Night Terrors Resource Center.

*6*

Scientific studies say that the risk of getting sleep paralysis is small:

_"Isolated Sleep Paralysis (SP) occurs at least once in a lifetime in 40-50% of normal subjects, while as a chronic complaint it is an uncommon and scarcely known disorder."_
Buzzi G, Cirignotta F. Isolated sleep paralysis: a web survey. Sleep Res Online 2000;3(2):61-6.

_"To further examine the incidence of sleep paralysis, the responses of 80 first-year medical students, 16.25% had experienced predormital, postdormital, or both types of sleep paralysis. These episodes occurred infrequently-- only once or twice for most of these students."_
Penn NE, Kripke DF, Scharff J. Sleep paralysis among medical students. J Psychol 1981 Mar;107 pt 2:247-52.

*7*

_"Hypnagogic states are transient states of decreased wakefulness characterized by short episodes of dreamlike sensory experience. These phenomena were first described by J. M&#252;ller (1826/1967) as "fantastic visual phenomena" (p. 20ff) occurring usually, but not exclusively, at sleep onset. Maury (1848) coined for them the term hypnagogic, from Greek hypnos (sleep) and agogo (I bring). Schacter (1976) described them as "dreamlets." Subjects usually report short visual percepts like faces, landscapes, and natural or social scenes that may or may not be related to previous daytime experience. These percepts may be of pseudohallucinatory (i.e., with preserved insight of unreality) or truly hallucinatory (i.e., experienced as if real) character. In contrast to dreams, hypnagogic experiences are usually rather static, without narrative content, and the subject is not involved as an actor (cf. Sleep and Dreaming section)."_
_"Similar phenomena occurring at the transition from sleep to wakefulness are called hypnopompic (Myers, 1904); here, however, it is difficult to differentiate hypnagogic imagery from remnants of dream imagery. Hypnagogic-like phenomena may also occur in daytime periods of reduced wakefulness and possibly superimposed over adequate sensory perceptions of the environment (cf. Mavromatis, 1987; Schacter, 1976; Sherwood, 2002). Subjective experience in hypnagogic states comprises vivid, mostly very brief episodes of usually visual (86%) and acoustical (8%) imagery with other sensory modalities occurring less frequently and with an average recall rate of 35%. There is more awareness of the real situation in hypnagogic states than in dreaming (Hori et al., 1994). The prevalence for frequent hypnagogic states is estimated at 37% (Ohayon, Priest, Caulet, & Guilleminault, 1996). Behavioral correlates are sparse, for example, leg or arm jerks ("sleep starts") associated with illusionary body movements (American Sleep Disorders Association, 1990; Sherwood, 2002). As for physiological correlates, an association between short flashes of dreamlike imagery and drop-offs in alpha EEG activity was first noticed by Davis et al. (1937). By definition, hypnagogic states are related to sleep onset, that is, Sleep Stage 1 according to Rechtschaffen and Kales (1968), but may occur even with presleep alpha EEG (Foulkes & Schmidt, 1983; Foulkes & Vogel, 1965). Kuhlo and Lehmann (1964) studied hypnagogic states and their EEG correlates during drowsiness and sleep onset: Spontaneous, transient, fragmentary nonemotional visual and auditory impressions of varying complexity were reported that were mostly experienced as unreal and were associated with flattened or decelerated alpha and/or slow theta EEG activity; the authors postulated a gradual progression from hypnagogic hallucinations to fragmentary dreams (cf. Lehmann et al., 1995)."_
Dieter Vaitl et al. Psychobiology of Altered States of Consciousness. Psychological Bulletin 2005, Vol. 131, No. 1.

*8*

REM sleep is in many ways the polar opposite of wakefulness, with non-REM sleep falling somewhere in the middle. In particular, in REM sleep the sensory experience and body control are maximally internal

Awake state:
 Brain chemistry is modulated by norepinephrine and serotonin You perceive the world through your senses and control your physical body
REM sleep:
 Brain chemistry is modulated by choline Perceptions are internally generated and you control your dream body. Sensory input is by no means impossible in REM sleep, but the threshold is higher than in the other states.
You may think of the states of sleep falling along a line like this:

Wakefulness --------------- non-REM ----------------- REM

The notorious exception to this is the activation level of the brain. If you look at the brain waves on an EEG machine, REM sleep EEG looks very similar to EEG of wakefulness (high frequency, low amplitude), whereas the EEG of non-REM sleep is very different from both of the others (low frequency, high amplitude). So with respect to EEG, the states of sleep look something like this:

Wakfulness, REM ----------------------------------- non-REM

Source: Hobson, J. Allan, Pace-Schott, E. and Stickgold, R., Dreaming and the Brain: Toward a Cognitive Neuroscience of Conscious States, Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 23 (6), 2000.

*9*

DV member BillyBob is the author of several WILD guides. Here are some excerpts:

_"When learning to WILD, the majority of people learn about these crAzY things like "Hypnogogic Imagery, Sleep Paralysis, Auditory Hallucinations, etc." and are then told that these things "lead up to" dreams. What happens when they lay down to WILD? They subconsciously tell themselves "watch out for hypnogogia/paralysis/voices as these things mean you are closer to lucidity!" This is the exact equivalent of what the prehistoric human thought. This is the exact thing the system watches for to keep you from falling into your dreams!"_
BillyBob. WILD.

_"For starters, you absolutely should NOT be waiting for HI or any other thing that people say they see, I myself rarely feel SP or see HI, I don't "see" anything because I'm so focused on my breathing."_
BillyBob. WILD - The Guide To End All Guides

*10*

REM latency is the time span between the start of sleeping and the start of REM sleep. This is normally 90 minutes. In a multiple sleep latency test (MSLT) the subject tries to take five daytime naps at two hour intervals after having first slept for at least six hours during the night. The first nap trial begins between 1.5 and three hours after waking up.

Source: MSLT at SleepEducation.com.

_"In an MSLT, REM sleep during the first 15 minutes of sleep is called sleep onset REM (SOREM). The occurrence of SOREM is indicative of severe sleep deprivation or narcolepsy and is almost exclusive to these conditions."_
Soruce: Narcolepsy at Sleepchannel.

Unfortunately the REM latency test or the MSLT do not exactly duplicate the typical situation for lucid dreaming attempts, which normally employ the wake back to bed (WBTB) technique.

*11*

_"It is generally accepted that NREM mentation which is indistinguishable from REM dreaming does indeed occur. Monroe et al's (1965) widely cited study suggests that approximately 10-30% of NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams (Rechtschaffen 1973). Even Hobson accepts that 5-10% of NREM dream reports are `indistinguishable by any criterion from those obtained from post-REM awakenings' (Hobson 1988, p. 143). If we adjust this conservative figure to account for the fact that NREM sleep occupies approximately 75% of total sleep time, this implies that roughly one quarter of all REM-like dreams occur outside of REM sleep."_
This is an example of a non-REM dream:

_"I was with my mother in a public library. I wanted her to steal something for me. I've got to try and remember what it was, because it was something extraordinary, something like a buffalo head that was in this museum. I had told my mother previously that I wanted this head and she said, all right, you know, we'll see what we can do about it. And she met me in the library, part of which was a museum. And I remember telling my mother to please lower her voice and she insisted on talking even more loudly. And I said, if you don't, of course, you'll never be able to take the buffalo head. Everyone will turn around and look at you. Well, when we got to the place where the buffalo head was, it was surrounded by other strange things. There was a little sort of smock that little boys used to wear at the beginning of the century. And one of the women who worked at the library came up to me and said, dear, I haven't been able to sell this smock. And I remember saying to her, well, why don't you wear it then? For some reason or other I had to leave my mother alone, and she had to continue with the buffalo head project all by herself. Then I left the library and went outside, and there were groups of people just sitting on the grass listening to music."_
Solms, Mark. Dreaming and REM Sleep Are Controlled by Different Brain Mechanisms, Behavioral and Brain Sciences 23 (6), 2000.

_"Sleep Onset (SO). Perhaps the most vivid NREM mentation reports have been collected from SO stages. These include images from the Rechtschaffen and Kales stages 1 and 2 of sleep (Cicogna et al. 1991; Foulkes et al. 1966; Foulkes & Vogel 1965; Vogel 1991; Lehmann et al. 1995) as well as from the stages of a more detailed SO scoring grid (Hori et al. 1994; Nielsen et al. 1995). SO mentation is remarkable because it can equal or surpass in frequency and length mentation from REM sleep (Foulkes et al. 1966; Vogel et al. 1966; Foulkes & Vogel 1965; Vogel 1978; Foulkes 1982). Moreover, much SO mentation (from 31-76% depending upon EEG features) is clearly hallucinatory dreaming as opposed to isolated scenes, flashes or nonhallucinated images (Vogel 1978)."_
Nielsen, Tore A. Mentation in REM and NREM Sleep: A review and possible reconciliation of two models, Behavioral and Brain Sciences 23 (6), 2000.

*12*

_"After being instructed in the method of lucid dream induction (MILD) described by LaBerge (1980b) the subjects were recorded from 2 to 20 nights each. In the course of the 34 nights of the study, 35 lucid dreams were reported subsequent to spontaneous awakening from various stages of sleep as follows: REM sleep 32 times, NREM Stage-1, twice, and during the transition from NREM Stage-2 to REM, once."_
Stephen LaBerge, Ph.D. Lucid Dreaming: Psychophysiological Studies of Consciousness during REM Sleep. In Bootzen, R. R., Kihlstrom, J.F. & Schacter, D.L., (Eds.) Sleep and Cognition. Washington, D.C.: American Psychological Association, 1990 (pp. 109-126).

----------


## Thor

Well, now version 0.1 is posted. Please do a peer review.

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## Shift

:bravo::bravo::bravo: Bravo, bravo!!! Very well done, great sources, and well presented, it states the facts nicely  :smiley: 

Hmm, peer review... presentation-wise, it looks like a huge block of text. I was totally motivated to read it, but my normal response to things like this is " ::shock::  omg do I really have to read all that?" Maybe add some color, differentiate between the headings, that could make it a bit more digestible.

Also, I don't see a lot of noobs reading this in depth, especially not the younger ones or those who aren't used to the sciences or any other instances where they are reading things like this often. Maybe make a dup copy of it, the sort of 'dumbed down' version if you will.

I think pictures could help. Maybe a diagram of a sleep cycle, showing where you should be expecting these things to occur. In fact if you'd like, I could help work on something like this. I am not exactly ace with sleep cycles, but as far as coming up with little image and presenting it, that I would definitely love to do.


and  ::content::  thank _you_ for the acknowledgment! Both here and in general. Most of the time my ideas and suggestions go unheeded, so it is refreshing to see that someone took one to heart and did such a *fantastic* job!!!  :boogie:  ::banana::  :boogie:  ::banana::  :boogie:

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## PSPSoldier534

It looks pretty good. Not any major flaws to iron out.

(P.S. My HH are fully animated and in motion.)

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## Thor

> :bravo::bravo::bravo: Bravo, bravo!!! Very well done, great sources, and well presented, it states the facts nicely



Thanks a lot, Shift!





> Hmm, peer review... presentation-wise, it looks like a huge block of text. I was totally motivated to read it, but my normal response to things like this is " omg do I really have to read all that?" Maybe add some color, differentiate between the headings, that could make it a bit more digestible.
> 
> Also, I don't see a lot of noobs reading this in depth, especially not the younger ones or those who aren't used to the sciences or any other instances where they are reading things like this often. Maybe make a dup copy of it, the sort of 'dumbed down' version if you will.



I totally see your point, and I was kind of worried about this when I wrote it. This is why I tried to separate the text into two levels consisting of the main article and the notes and references, in the hope that most people would at least read the first part. Maybe I could try to make the main text more compact and move more stuff into the notes and references section.





> I think pictures could help. Maybe a diagram of a sleep cycle, showing where you should be expecting these things to occur. In fact if you'd like, I could help work on something like this. I am not exactly ace with sleep cycles, but as far as coming up with little image and presenting it, that I would definitely love to do.



Sounds good to me, if you want to do it.

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## adraw

As "Sleep paralysis" is one of the terms, which are often misused, we could somehow propagate knowledge about it in noob section and also in attaining lucidity section. It could be wise to make this one  temporary sticky topic here in attaining lucidity section, so the people here get used to all modalities of this term more easily. 

If that happens, i am prepared to raise term Sleep paralysis from *Misused words* category into *possibly confusing category* in this list:

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67851

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## Shift

> As "Sleep paralysis" is one of the terms, which are often misused, we could somehow propagate knowledge about it in noob section and also in attaining lucidity section. It could be wise to make this one  temporary sticky topic here in attaining lucidity section, so the people here get used to all modalities of this term more easily. 
> 
> If that happens, i am prepared to raise term Sleep paralysis from *Misused words* category into *possibly confusing category* in this list:
> 
> http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67851



 :mwahaha:  mwahahahaha, everything is going perfectly to plan!!!
No seriously I think that's a great idea  :smiley:

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## Fiddler's Green

Excellent post, Thor.  I learned quite a bit.

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## John11

Well organized, easily readable, and very informative.  Nicely done.  

I just have one question that's been bothering me.  If we can dream and LD in stages 1 and 2, wouldn't we act out our movements in real life during those stages since we aren't in REM atonia at the time?  Or am I missing something?

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## moonshine

An very interesting and informative read. Thanks for taking the time.





> Some people would label this discussion as just semantics



You got me pegged!

Yet I still don't see the issue with laymen calling Rem Atonia Sleep Paralysis. I also suspect that its not something which is going to change. As you noted yourself, some people distinguish between SP and "the hag" condition by using the phrase "isolated sleep paralysis" for the scary kind. So its not just the dream views community.





> Sense 1: Why Would LDers Want Sleep Paralysis as in REM Atonia?



 Because its seen as a route to Lucid Dreaming?




> The prevalent hypothesis is that sleep paralysis is REM atonia that has somehow been activated outside of REM sleep



Having your body fall asleep whilst your mind is awake?
Isn't that laberges exact definition of Sleep Paralysis?
Isn't that what causes the Condition "Isolated Sleep Paralysis."
Does this not suggest that it is indeed quite possible to be in SP and 
be awake?

I think distinction between HH and SP is a good one though.

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## Thor

> Well organized, easily readable, and very informative.  Nicely done.  
> 
> I just have one question that's been bothering me.  If we can dream and LD in stages 1 and 2, wouldn't we act out our movements in real life during those stages since we aren't in REM atonia at the time?  Or am I missing something?



I can see why people would believe that. If atonia is needed to keep ourselves from acting out our dreams in REM sleep, then why wouldn't it be needed in non-REM sleep? The answer is that's just the way it is. But keep in mind that the brain in REM sleep is very different from in non-REM sleep (cf. note 8). Anyway it's a legitimate question, so I'll try to answer it in the next version.

----------


## Shift

> I can see why people would believe that. If atonia is needed to keep ourselves from acting out our dreams in REM sleep, then why wouldn't it be needed in non-REM sleep? The answer is that's just the way it is. But keep in mind that the brain in REM sleep is very different from in non-REM sleep (cf. note 8). Anyway it's a legitimate question, so I'll try to answer it in the next version.



I can add that I have read that sleepwalking/talking typically occurs during those stages. So we DO sometimes act them out  ::tongue::  But yes, why it's not more common? Or why some people sleepwalk more than others? I have not read enough on it  :Sad: 

Thor, I have been trying to find something that I can't, and I don't want to make a broad incorrect statement. Every source seems to agree that sleep paralysis (in its true definition) most commonly occurs upon waking from sleep (except for CSP, which occurs at Stage 1). Do you know if it only happens at the end of REM, or if it can happen at any point of waking up? I'm pretty sure, but I don't want to say anything unless I can find a legit source. Do you remember reading anything about it?

And if CSP only occurs during Stage 1... is it feasible to try to attain true sleep paralysis after a brief awakening or WBTB? At which point do the cycles reset? I think I may be confusing myself, but ahhhhh why don't _any_ sources agree on what/when sleep paralysis is?  :Sad:  Just something I think we ought to look into!  :wink2:

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## moonshine

> You got me pegged!



Hehe. Well, that remark wasn't directed _only_ at you.





> Because its seen as a route to Lucid Dreaming?



Yes, by many people, apparently. But I think people are making too much of it. BillyBob is obviously a very experienced lucid dreamer, and his advice is to forget about it.





> Having your body fall asleep whilst your mind is awake?
> Isn't that laberges exact definition of Sleep Paralysis?



I think that should be construed mostly as a metaphor. This is mostly about the brain and not the body. When you fall asleep, certain parts of the brain are deactivated. It may be the case that lucid dreaming occurs when a particular part of the brain (in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex) is somehow activated when the rest of the brain is in its usual sleeping state.

I could try to write more about this, but I would need to look more closely into it.





> Isn't that what causes the Condition "Isolated Sleep Paralysis."
> Does this not suggest that it is indeed quite possible to be in SP and 
> be awake?



Indeed it is. However this condition is rather unusual, and I haven't seen anything evidence to suggest that you could get it only by wishing for it or concentrating hard.





> I can add that I have read that sleepwalking/talking typically occurs during those stages. So we DO sometimes act them out  But yes, why it's not more common? Or why some people sleepwalk more than others? I have not read enough on it



Good point. Sleepwalking occurs in deep sleep, which is associated with the least vivid dreams, so this is a little strange.





> Thor, I have been trying to find something that I can't, and I don't want to make a broad incorrect statement. Every source seems to agree that sleep paralysis (in its true definition) most commonly occurs upon waking from sleep (except for CSP, which occurs at Stage 1). Do you know if it only happens at the end of REM, or if it can happen at any point of waking up? I'm pretty sure, but I don't want to say anything unless I can find a legit source. Do you remember reading anything about it?



I can't say I remember, but it sounds reasonable that it would only occur when waking up from REM sleep and atona failed to be deactivated. It also seems logical to me that it would happen most often when waking up, because when you're falling asleep it takes 90 minutes before you reach REM sleep, unless you have narcolepsy or something.

Strange that you would claim I said you "need" SP to have an OBE/Lucid Dream.
Given that I didn't.

As to the lead blankey feeling, the saltcube video describes this as "partial sleep paralysis". Given that this is a common experience, this no doubt explaining why its commonly reported on Dreamviews. Maybe those reporting the same should be given encouragement instead of being dismissed with an "LOL thats no SP. You will know when its SP".

For the record, I've experienced the wave myself, and the lead blanket.

erm, guys........I think you've got the wrong end of the stick.

Every definition I've read for REM Atonia states that it commonly takes place during Rem sleep to stop you moving whilst dreaming (As you might expect). 

Sleep paralysis is therefore Rem Atonia, except the person is awake whilst the body is asleep. This can be frightening, especially if unexpected. But not neccesarily so to experienced lucid dreamers.

Heres what the dictionary of Psychology says about it.

sleep paralysis





> A Dictionary of Psychology 
> sleep paralysis n. A condition in which REM atonia is experienced in the waking state. Such episodes typically occur immediately after waking or shortly before falling asleep. They are often frightening and may be accompanied by out-of-body experiences. See also narcolepsy. Compare REM behaviour disorder.



Thats pretty clear. SP=Where REM Atonia takes place in the waking state. 
Where this is associated with the sleep dissorder, this is generally further categorised as "isolated sleep paralysis".

On that basis, it seems conclusive that Sleep Paralysis is exactly the right term to use to describe the stage which can be reached during a WILD. Which is good, as this tallys up with both laberges terminology, and the terminology in common use in this forum.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O87-REMatonia.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O87...paralysis.html





> I never said _you_ claimed that, but the video you referred to pretty much implied it.



Err, yeah you did....





> Strange that they would claim that you need SP to have an OBE



See.  :smiley: 





> There ain't no such thing as "partial sleep paralysis", neither in the sense of the disorder or REM atonia, because that would be self-contradictory; if you can move you are in no way paralyzed. As I wrote in my article this is simply reduced muscle tone, and it happens naturally when you fall asleep.



Err...partially paralysed? See? Meaning difficult to move, not impossible.
This is a very common phenomenon (even experienced by yourself also it seems). Certainly seems to be a common interim stage on the way to full Sleep Paralysis. 

Semantic squabbling can't change that.





> So far so good.



So you now agree that Sleep Paralysis can legitimately be used to describe Rem Atonia whilst the mind is awake.
Phew!






> So far so good.
> No, that does not make much sense, because then you would have to be saying that WILDs are taking place in the awake state.



LOL. No. Read my statement. 



> to describe the stage which can be reached during a WILD.



A stage. The sleep paralysis stage. When you both paralysed and awake. Not the final stage, when your both dreaming and paralysed, which I guess you really can call REM Atonia.  :boogie: 

C'mon Thor. You know I'm right.

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## Shift

> I can't say I remember, but it sounds reasonable that it would only occur when waking up from REM sleep and atona failed to be deactivated. It also seems logical to me that it would happen most often when waking up, because when you're falling asleep it takes 90 minutes before you reach REM sleep, unless you have narcolepsy or something.



Yea, but if CSP is most common at stage 1, WAY before REM, and it's a physiological problem, it seems like it wouldn't be limited to setting in early while you're awake... it could also set in while you are asleep in other stages and be experienced upon waking from NREM stages too? In addition to persisting past REM stage sleep. I'm guessing that's most common, because it most commonly occurs upon waking from dreams, and the most dreams occur during REM, but I can't find anything that involved people hooked up to EEGs and if they experienced SP and when.  ::?:  DV needs to invest in some equipment  ::tongue::

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## Ezey

That was really informative, and it was interesting and easy to read once I got into it.

I'd also like to second the notion that there be some color added, or something put in there to spice it up a bit. I originally read the first paragraph, scrolled down, saw the rest of the post, and was immediately discouraged. I did end up reading it, though, and it was great, it seemed really well thought out, and you put it into words in a way that I could understand.

But, yeah, you should really consider spicing it up a little, because if I hadn't read how much everyone else liked it, I probably wouldn't have gone back and read it at all.

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## PSPSoldier534

In media, "attention regrabbing" is important. You have to be able to hold people's attention to the end. Like in the lucidipedia videos, it is just one long lecture. I usually space out when watching it. Maybe some loud noises or a little bit more action. The only time he brought me out of my boredom trance is when the little pink tip box comes out. Every thing he says, no matter how hard I try, just passes right through me. I have to play it again about 5 times to catch what he says.

As for the article, as my last post said, I couldn't add or remove anything except for attention regrabbers.

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## Robot_Butler

Great guide, Thor.  It really came together nicely.  Hopefully this will help people better understand the differences between HH and SP.

I like your conclusions:




> The conclusion is that if you get HH it's an indication that you're on the right track, but if you don't get them it's not an indication that you're on the wrong track.



The only part I would give more attention to is this section:




> Many LDers and people who write WILD guides seem to conflate REM atonia and hypnagogic hallucinations. But hypnagogic hallucinations and REM atonia do not occur at the same time, because hypnagogic hallucinations belong exclusively to sleep stage 1 (or in rare cases wakefulness), whereas REM atonia belongs exclusively to the REM stage. Since sleep stages 1 and REM are distinct, these two phenomena do not normally occur simultaneously. The exception is people who are suffering from sleep paralysis as a disorder.
> 
> So is it possible that REM could follow shortly after sleep stage 1? Maybe after a very brief awakening it could. However REM is usually entered via sleep stage 2, and REM latency tests suggest that when normal people fall asleep after having been awake for hours, they do not enter REM sleep immediately; it usually takes at least fifteen minutes.[10]
> 
> Many people who WILD and enter a dream after falling asleep consciously, conclude that they must be in REM sleep. However, this does not follow, because it's possible to dream in any sleep stage. Generally the most vivid dreams occur in REM sleep, but dreams in other sleep stages, especially stages 1 and 2, can be indistinguishable from REM dreams.[11] Even lucid dreams have been verified in sleep stages 1 and 2.[12] So a dream, even a vivid or lucid one, does not necessarily mean that you're in REM sleep.



It is not only possible to WILD into REM, it is, in fact, the main goal of WILD.  I don't know how it taking fifteen minutes is a problem.  Most experienced WILDers can maintain consciousness for at least 45 minutes or an hour waiting for REM, if not indefinitely.

I am also curious to learn more about dreams during phase 1 and 2 sleep, and whether there is such a thing as "phase 2 atonia".  It would make sense to me that the same mechanisms that paralyze you during REM sleep would kick in for the rare times you have vivid dreams in the other phases of sleep.  If this is the case, the term sleep paralysis would need to be extended to cover peoples' experiences in this as well.

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## Thor

> The only part I would give more attention to is this section:



I'll look into it.





> It is not only possible to WILD into REM, it is, in fact, the main goal of WILD.



Are you aware of any research where this has been shown experimentally, i.e., with the subject hooked up to EEG and signaling out of a WILD?

The study I cited in note 12 shows that at least it's _possible_ to have lucid dreams in stage 1 or 2. In this particular study the percentage of cases where this occurred was rather low. On the other hand the researchers were studying DILDs, not WILDs.





> I don't know how it taking fifteen minutes is a problem. Most experienced WILDers can maintain consciousness for at least 45 minutes or an hour waiting for REM, if not indefinitely.



You mean you actually fall asleep consciously, and then you don't dream at all for up to an hour? That's pretty impressive.

Does anyone know how I can edit my original post? I wanted to post version 0.2 of the article, but there's no "Edit" button there.

Edit: but I _can_ edit this post. Is there a time limit on editing?

PS: Shift, if you're reading this, have you checked your PM lately?

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## Shift

Yes, there is a time limit for editing your posts. If you'd like you can just post the new edition here at the bottom, or if you PM it to me I can update the original for you  :smiley: 

Yea... gotta get around to those PMs... I've been meaning to respond for the past two days  ::shock::  I'm such a procrastinator  :Sad:

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## Thor

*Spoiler* for _Version 0.2_: 



What Every Lucid Dreamer Should Know About Sleep Paralysis

Version 0.2

Many lucid dreamers who are trying to WILD are as part of that process trying to achieve something they call "sleep paralysis". What exactly is it? Why would they want it? And how important is it? I'll try to answer these three questions in this article.

By the way, if you think this article looks too long to read, just scroll down to "Conclusions".

What is Sleep Paralysis?

Unfortunately the term sleep paralysis can mean several different things to different people. I'll go through the main interpretations here. Some people would label this discussion as just semantics. I agree, except for the word "just". If a particular terminology creates confusion instead of enabling unambiguous communication, it has failed miserably.

*Sense 1: Sleep Paralysis as REM Atonia*

One interpretation of the term sleep paralysis is as a natural phenomenon that is more properly called REM atonia.[1] When you fall asleep you first go into non-REM sleep stages. In these sleep stages the tone (tension) of your skeletal muscles is reduced, that is, you become physically relaxed. You can still move, even though movements may be sluggish. For example, you can turn around in your sleep.

When you enter the REM stage, the skeletal muscles (except for the eye muscles and the diaphragm) become paralyzed. Since there is practically no muscle tone at all, this is called REM atonia. When you exit the REM stage, the muscles go back to the reduced muscle tone of non-REM sleep.

There are two ways that REM atonia could go wrong: it could be activated outside of REM sleep, or it could fail to be activated during REM sleep. The former type of failure results in a sleep disorder that I'll discuss in the next section. The latter type of failure is a more serious type of disorder called REM sleep behavior disorder (RBD) that causes people to act out their dreams during REM sleep.[2]

*Sense 2: Sleep Paralysis as a Sleep Disorder*

In the scientific and medical communities sleep paralysis usually refers to a sleep disorder.[3] The main symptom is that the subject is awake but unable to move or speak. This paralysis is usually accompanied by fear. The prevalent hypothesis is that sleep paralysis is REM atonia that has somehow been activated outside of REM sleep.[4]

When sleep paralysis occurs it is most often a brief episode when waking up and rarely when falling asleep. In rare cases the paralysis may last for as much as seven or eight minutes and be accompanied by nightmare like hallucinations.[5] This is also known as the "Old Hag" syndrome.

Sleep paralysis affects a minority of the population, and those who are affected experience it infrequently.[6]

*Sense 3: Sleep Paralysis as Hypnagogic Hallucinations*

There is not much justification for the use of the term "sleep paralysis" in the sense "hypnagogic hallucinations". However, LaBerge speaks of hypnagogic hallucinations as "the harbingers of REM sleep paralysis", so it's not unlikely that some people may have assumed they had to be the same phenomenon.

Hypnagogic states occur in the transition from wakefulness to sleep. By definition they are related to sleep stage 1, but they have also been known in some cases to occur in periods of reduced wakefulness before sleep. With respect to EEG, hypnagogic states are associated with a dropoff in alpha activity. Hypnic jerks (also known as sleep starts) occur in the hypnagogic states.[7]

There are also similar states in the transition from sleep to wakefulness called hypnopompic states. However, it's more difficult to tell hypnopompic states from dreams. Sometimes, for simplicity, hypnopompic states are also called hypnagogic.

In hypnagogic states people may experience hallucinations. Hallucinations, including hypnagogic ones, are experienced as if you had actually perceived them through your senses, and they may involve any and all of your senses.[7] The most common ones are:
 *Visual HH*, also known as hypnagogic imagery (HI), are typically faces, landscapes, geometric shapes. *Auditory HH* are typically roaring sounds, explosions, people shouting. *Kinesthetic, vestibular, tactile HH* are typically vibrations, the feeling of being electrocuted (sans the pain), a sense of extreme acceleration.

*Sense 4: Sleep Paralysis as an Umbrella Term*

This interpretation includes a hodgepodge of any or all of the preceding interpretations.

Why Would Lucid Dreamers Want Sleep Paralysis?

In order to discuss this the distinctions made in the previous section are crucial. So let's go through them one by one.

*Sense 1: Why Would LDers Want Sleep Paralysis as in REM Atonia?*

Every normal person will get REM atonia during REM sleep, and only during REM sleep. They will also be oblivious to the fact that they are in REM atonia.

In wakefulness your sensory perceptions are externally generated from your sensory organs, and you control your physical body through your voluntary muscles. In REM sleep the exact opposite is the case: your sensory perceptions are internally generated, and you control your dream body. [8] For this reason you won't be aware that your body is paralyzed.

So wanting sleep paralysis as REM atonia is pointless. If you have a normal physiology you are guaranteed to get REM atonia in REM sleep, but you won't be aware of this since your entire experience will be internally generated during that entire period of time.

*Sense 2: Why Would LDers Want Sleep Paralysis as in the Sleep Disorder?*

People who suffer from sleep paralysis generally do not want it because it's usually very frightening. A minority of the population will get sleep paralysis sometimes. The proportion of the population that experience sleep paralysis regularly is very small.

Those who suffer from sleep paralysis may exploit it to launch into WILDs when they get it. Those who don't have this disorder will likely not get it by wishing for it. You won't be able to "will" yourself into changing your sleep physiology so that you get REM atonia outside of REM sleep. At least I'm not aware of any kind of research that could confirm such an effect.

So wanting sleep paralysis as a disorder is also pointless. If you have it you can use it to your advantage, and if you don't have it you won't get it by thinking hard about it.

*Sense 3: Why Would LDers Want Sleep Paralysis as in Hypnagogic Hallucinations?*

Whenever we fall asleep we pass through hypnagogic states. We are not usually aware of this, or at least we don't remember it. But LDers who want to WILD need to maintain awareness all the way into sleep, so it's highly likely that if they get any HH they will recall it because they were aware at the time.

Thus, wanting HH may make some sense for LDers. It's not that HH will buy them anything in itself (unless they like the HH for their own sake), but if they get HH it's a symptom that they have managed to keep themselves "awake" beyond the point where most people lose awareness. And that's a good sign, because it means that they may not be far away from entering a dream.

On the other hand this may cause problems too, because not everyone gets any significant HH, at least not every time they fall asleep. So if you think you should get these HH and then you don't maybe that will stop you in your efforts and discourage you from trying again.

The conclusion is that if you get HH it's an indication that you're on the right track, but if you don't get them it's _not_ an indication that you're on the wrong track. HH are a potential side effect of WILDing and absence of HH doesn't mean anything. BillyBob, author of several WILD guides on DV, explicitly recommends that you don't focus on HH, because that focus may actually prevent you from entering the dream.[9]

*Sense 4: Why Would LDers Want Sleep Paralysis as in the Umbrella Term?*

This is harder to answer. Since sleep paralysis in this sense is a hodgepodge of different things whose content may vary a lot between individuals, it's not at all clear what it is they want.

Many LDers seem to conflate hypnagogic hallucinations and REM atonia. Hypnagogic hallucinations belong exclusively to sleep stage 1 (or in rare cases wakefulness)[7]. And REM atonia belongs exclusively to the REM stage.[14] Since sleep stages 1 and REM are distinct, these two phenomena do not normally occur simultaneously, except in the case of sleep paralysis as a disorder.

So is it possible that REM could follow shortly after falling asleep? Yes, after a brief awakening (like a few tens of seconds) from REM sleep you can expect to fall right back into REM sleep.[13] After a longer awakening (one and a half hours) it usually takes at least fifteen minutes to reach REM.[10] I don't have any hard data for a WBTB awakening (30 to 60 minutes), but it would be reasonable to expect the time needed to reach REM to be closer to the latter interval than the former.

Many people who WILD and enter a dream after falling asleep consciously, conclude that they must be in REM sleep. However, this does not follow, because it's possible to dream in any sleep stage. Generally the most vivid dreams occur in REM sleep, but it's possible to dream in any sleep stage. Especially dreams in stages 1 and 2 can be indistinguishable from REM dreams.[11] Even lucid dreams have been verified in sleep stages 1 and 2.[12] So a dream, even a vivid or lucid one, does not necessarily mean that you're in REM sleep.

Now if REM atonia is required to keep us from acting out our dreams and we can dream in any sleep stage, then why don't we need atonia in _all_ sleep stages? I'm not sure anyone knows the complete answer, but at least it's a fact that the brain is in a very different state in REM sleep compared to non-REM sleep.[8] Also, in the cases of sleepwalking and sleep terrors, which both occur in deep sleep (stages 3 and 4), people _do_ move around in their sleep.

Conclusions

Before you decide that sleep paralysis is something you desperately need, take a moment to consider the following facts. Of the 333 pages of _Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming_, LaBerge devotes only about four pages in total to sleep paralysis (either as REM atonia or the disorder). He describes eight different techniques to induce WILDs, but only two of them even mention sleep paralysis. And BillyBob, a seasoned lucid dreamer on DV and author of several WILD guides, explicitly recommends not to focus on sleep paralysis.

If you are one of the few people who get sleep paralysis as a disorder, you can know that although it may be scary, it's not in any way dangerous. And you can even turn it into an advantage by initiating WILDs from this state.

If you belong to the majority who don't get sleep paralysis as a disorder, don't sweat it. You will get REM atonia for sure, but by that time your experience is entirely internally generated and you won't have any awareness of your physical body. You _may_ get hypnagogic hallucinations, and if you get them you'll know that you're on the right path to a WILD. If you don't get them, don't worry; you'll be able to WILD just fine anyway, as thousands of people have done before you.

Acknowledgements

Thanks to those who challenged my posts on this subject and made me do more research, and to those who commented on version 0.1. Special thanks to Shift who dug up facts and references and prodded me to write this article.


* * *

Notes and References

*1*

"*REM atonia abbrev.* An inhibition of skeletal muscles (but not extra-ocular muscles) during REM sleep, manifested as complete atonia, that is governed by a small inhibitory centre in the pons called the subcoerulear nucleus and by the magnocellular nucleus in the medulla oblongata to which it is connected, and that prevents spinal nerves from activating skeletal muscles and thereby stops dreams from being acted out by the sleeper. The only observable bodily movements in a person in REM sleep, apart from breathing and rapid eye movements, are occasional twitches of the extremities, except in people with REM behaviour disorder."
Excerpt from A Dictionary of Psychology 2001, originally published by Oxford University Press 2001.

Stephen LaBerge, researcher and author of the classical work _Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming_, is one notable expert who uses the term "sleep paralysis" in the sense of "REM atonia".

*2*

"*REM behaviour disorder abbrev.* A condition is which REM atonia does not function during episodes of dreaming. People with this disorder thrash violently about, leap out of bed, and sometimes attack bed-partners during REM sleep. It is assumed to be due to a lesion in the subcoerulear nucleus or the magnocellular nucleus."
Excerpt from A Dictionary of Psychology 2001, originally published by Oxford University Press 2001.

For more information, see REM Sleep Behavior Disorder at SleepEducation.com.

*3*

"*sleep paralysis n.* A condition in which REM atonia is experienced in the waking state. Such episodes typically occur immediately after waking or shortly before falling asleep. They are often frightening and may be accompanied by out-of-body experiences."
Excerpt from A Dictionary of Psychology 2001, originally published by Oxford University Press 2001.

Some people who use the term "sleep paralysis" to mean REM atonia use the term "isolated sleep paralysis" to refer to the disorder, in order to distinguish the two concepts. LaBerge, in _Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming_, uses "sleep paralysis" to refer to both the disorder and REM atonia.

For more information, see Sleep Paralysis at SleepEducation.com.

*4*

Physiology of REM sleep, cataplexy, and sleep paralysis. Hishikawa Y, Shimizu T.

*5*

There are two major types of sleep paralysis.
 Common sleep paralysis (CSP), also known as typical sleep paralysis. CSP is short lasting, and it usually occurs when waking up and rarely when falling asleep. Hallucinatory sleep paralysis (HSP), also known as hypnagogic sleep paralysis. HSP is accompanied by nightmare like hallucinations. HSP can last as long as seven or eight minutes. HSP is rare and seems to be geographically episodic.
For more information, see Sleep Paralysis at Night Terrors Resource Center.

*6*

Scientific studies say that the risk of getting sleep paralysis is small:

"Isolated Sleep Paralysis (SP) occurs at least once in a lifetime in 40-50&#37; of normal subjects, while as a chronic complaint it is an uncommon and scarcely known disorder."
Buzzi G, Cirignotta F. Isolated sleep paralysis: a web survey. Sleep Res Online 2000;3(2):61-6.

"To further examine the incidence of sleep paralysis, the responses of 80 first-year medical students, 16.25% had experienced predormital, postdormital, or both types of sleep paralysis. These episodes occurred infrequently-- only once or twice for most of these students."
Penn NE, Kripke DF, Scharff J. Sleep paralysis among medical students. J Psychol 1981 Mar;107 pt 2:247-52.

*7*

"Hypnagogic states are transient states of decreased wakefulness characterized by short episodes of dreamlike sensory experience. These phenomena were first described by J. M&#252;ller (1826/1967) as "fantastic visual phenomena" (p. 20ff) occurring usually, but not exclusively, at sleep onset. Maury (1848) coined for them the term hypnagogic, from Greek hypnos (sleep) and agogo (I bring). Schacter (1976) described them as "dreamlets." Subjects usually report short visual percepts like faces, landscapes, and natural or social scenes that may or may not be related to previous daytime experience. These percepts may be of pseudohallucinatory (i.e., with preserved insight of unreality) or truly hallucinatory (i.e., experienced as if real) character. In contrast to dreams, hypnagogic experiences are usually rather static, without narrative content, and the subject is not involved as an actor (cf. Sleep and Dreaming section)."
"Similar phenomena occurring at the transition from sleep to wakefulness are called hypnopompic (Myers, 1904); here, however, it is difficult to differentiate hypnagogic imagery from remnants of dream imagery. Hypnagogic-like phenomena may also occur in daytime periods of reduced wakefulness and possibly superimposed over adequate sensory perceptions of the environment (cf. Mavromatis, 1987; Schacter, 1976; Sherwood, 2002). Subjective experience in hypnagogic states comprises vivid, mostly very brief episodes of usually visual (86%) and acoustical (8%) imagery with other sensory modalities occurring less frequently and with an average recall rate of 35%. There is more awareness of the real situation in hypnagogic states than in dreaming (Hori et al., 1994). The prevalence for frequent hypnagogic states is estimated at 37% (Ohayon, Priest, Caulet, & Guilleminault, 1996). Behavioral correlates are sparse, for example, leg or arm jerks ("sleep starts") associated with illusionary body movements (American Sleep Disorders Association, 1990; Sherwood, 2002). As for physiological correlates, an association between short flashes of dreamlike imagery and drop-offs in alpha EEG activity was first noticed by Davis et al. (1937). By definition, hypnagogic states are related to sleep onset, that is, Sleep Stage 1 according to Rechtschaffen and Kales (1968), but may occur even with presleep alpha EEG (Foulkes & Schmidt, 1983; Foulkes & Vogel, 1965). Kuhlo and Lehmann (1964) studied hypnagogic states and their EEG correlates during drowsiness and sleep onset: Spontaneous, transient, fragmentary nonemotional visual and auditory impressions of varying complexity were reported that were mostly experienced as unreal and were associated with flattened or decelerated alpha and/or slow theta EEG activity; the authors postulated a gradual progression from hypnagogic hallucinations to fragmentary dreams (cf. Lehmann et al., 1995)."
Dieter Vaitl et al. Psychobiology of Altered States of Consciousness. Psychological Bulletin 2005, Vol. 131, No. 1.

*8*

REM sleep is in many ways the polar opposite of wakefulness, with non-REM sleep falling somewhere in the middle. In particular, in REM sleep the sensory experience and body control are maximally internal

Awake state:
 Brain chemistry is modulated by norepinephrine and serotonin You perceive the world through your senses and control your physical body
REM sleep:
 Brain chemistry is modulated by choline Perceptions are internally generated and you control your dream body. Sensory input is by no means impossible in REM sleep, but the threshold is higher than in the other states.
You may think of the states of sleep falling along a line like this:

Wakefulness --------------- non-REM ----------------- REM
The notorious exception to this is the activation level of the brain. If you look at the brain waves on an EEG machine, REM sleep EEG looks very similar to EEG of wakefulness (high frequency, low amplitude), whereas the EEG of non-REM sleep is very different from both of the others (low frequency, high amplitude). So with respect to EEG, the states of sleep look something like this:

Wakefulness, REM ----------------------------------- non-REM
Source: Hobson, J. Allan, Pace-Schott, E. and Stickgold, R., Dreaming and the Brain: Toward a Cognitive Neuroscience of Conscious States, Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 23 (6), 2000.

*9*

DV member BillyBob is the author of several WILD guides. Here are some excerpts:

"When learning to WILD, the majority of people learn about these crAzY things like "Hypnogogic Imagery, Sleep Paralysis, Auditory Hallucinations, etc." and are then told that these things "lead up to" dreams. What happens when they lay down to WILD? They subconsciously tell themselves "watch out for hypnogogia/paralysis/voices as these things mean you are closer to lucidity!" This is the exact equivalent of what the prehistoric human thought. This is the exact thing the system watches for to keep you from falling into your dreams!"
BillyBob. WILD.

"For starters, you absolutely should NOT be waiting for HI or any other thing that people say they see, I myself rarely feel SP or see HI, I don't "see" anything because I'm so focused on my breathing."
BillyBob. WILD - The Guide To End All Guides

*10*

REM latency is the time span between the start of sleeping and the start of REM sleep. This is normally 90 minutes. In a multiple sleep latency test (MSLT) the subject tries to take five daytime naps at two hour intervals after having first slept for at least six hours during the night. The first nap trial begins between 1.5 and three hours after waking up.

Source: MSLT at SleepEducation.com.

"In an MSLT, REM sleep during the first 15 minutes of sleep is called sleep onset REM (SOREM). The occurrence of SOREM is indicative of severe sleep deprivation or narcolepsy and is almost exclusive to these conditions."
Source: Narcolepsy at Sleepchannel.

Unfortunately the REM latency test or the MSLT do not exactly duplicate the typical situation for lucid dreaming attempts, which normally employ the wake back to bed (WBTB) technique.

*11*

"It is generally accepted that NREM mentation which is indistinguishable from REM dreaming does indeed occur. Monroe et al's (1965) widely cited study suggests that approximately 10-30% of NREM dreams are indistinguishable from REM dreams (Rechtschaffen 1973). Even Hobson accepts that 5-10% of NREM dream reports are `indistinguishable by any criterion from those obtained from post-REM awakenings' (Hobson 1988, p. 143). If we adjust this conservative figure to account for the fact that NREM sleep occupies approximately 75% of total sleep time, this implies that roughly one quarter of all REM-like dreams occur outside of REM sleep."
This is an example of a non-REM dream report:

"I was with my mother in a public library. I wanted her to steal something for me. I've got to try and remember what it was, because it was something extraordinary, something like a buffalo head that was in this museum. I had told my mother previously that I wanted this head and she said, all right, you know, we'll see what we can do about it. And she met me in the library, part of which was a museum. And I remember telling my mother to please lower her voice and she insisted on talking even more loudly. And I said, if you don't, of course, you'll never be able to take the buffalo head. Everyone will turn around and look at you. Well, when we got to the place where the buffalo head was, it was surrounded by other strange things. There was a little sort of smock that little boys used to wear at the beginning of the century. And one of the women who worked at the library came up to me and said, dear, I haven't been able to sell this smock. And I remember saying to her, well, why don't you wear it then? For some reason or other I had to leave my mother alone, and she had to continue with the buffalo head project all by herself. Then I left the library and went outside, and there were groups of people just sitting on the grass listening to music."
Solms, Mark. Dreaming and REM Sleep Are Controlled by Different Brain Mechanisms, Behavioral and Brain Sciences 23 (6), 2000.

"Sleep Onset (SO). Perhaps the most vivid NREM mentation reports have been collected from SO stages. These include images from the Rechtschaffen and Kales stages 1 and 2 of sleep (Cicogna et al. 1991; Foulkes et al. 1966; Foulkes & Vogel 1965; Vogel 1991; Lehmann et al. 1995) as well as from the stages of a more detailed SO scoring grid (Hori et al. 1994; Nielsen et al. 1995). SO mentation is remarkable because it can equal or surpass in frequency and length mentation from REM sleep (Foulkes et al. 1966; Vogel et al. 1966; Foulkes & Vogel 1965; Vogel 1978; Foulkes 1982). Moreover, much SO mentation (from 31-76% depending upon EEG features) is clearly hallucinatory dreaming as opposed to isolated scenes, flashes or nonhallucinated images (Vogel 1978)."
Nielsen, Tore A. Mentation in REM and NREM Sleep: A review and possible reconciliation of two models, Behavioral and Brain Sciences 23 (6), 2000.

*12*

"After being instructed in the method of lucid dream induction (MILD) described by LaBerge (1980b) the subjects were recorded from 2 to 20 nights each. In the course of the 34 nights of the study, 35 lucid dreams were reported subsequent to spontaneous awakening from various stages of sleep as follows: REM sleep 32 times, NREM Stage-1, twice, and during the transition from NREM Stage-2 to REM, once."
Stephen LaBerge, Ph.D. Lucid Dreaming: Psychophysiological Studies of Consciousness during REM Sleep. In Bootzen, R. R., Kihlstrom, J.F. & Schacter, D.L., (Eds.) Sleep and Cognition. Washington, D.C.: American Psychological Association, 1990 (pp. 109-126).

*13*

"As was mentioned earlier, momentary intrusions of wakefulness occur very commonly during the normal course of REM sleep and it had been proposed by Schwartz and Lefebvre (1973) that lucid dreaming occurs during these micro-awakenings. However, LaBerge et al.'s (1981,1986) data indicates that while lucid dreams do not take place during interludes of wakefulness within REM periods, a minority of lucid dreams (WILDs) are initiated from these moments of transitory arousal, with the WILDs continuing in subsequent undisturbed REM sleep."
*14*

"The activity of the mental and hyoid muscles, and the H-reflex were examined during nocturnal sleep and daytime naps of narcoleptic and normal subjects.

The continuous, tonic EMG discharges, which were observed in all subjects in the awake state, decreased in parallel with deepening of sleep but disappeared only during the rapid eye movements (REM) period, which occurred at the sleep onset in narcoleptics and late in nocturnal sleep in normal and narcoleptic subjects. During the REM period, only transient, phasic EMG discharges of low voltage were occasionally observed.

The H-reflex also decreased in amplitude when the subjects fell asleep. The degree of its decrement was slight in the drowsy stage and was greater in light and deep sleep. During the REM period which occurred at the sleep onset in narcoleptics and late in nocturnal sleep in normal and narcoleptic subjects, the decrement was most prominent and consistent and the H-reflex would completely disappear."
Yasuo Hishikawa M.D., Noboru Sumitsuji M.D., Kazuo Matsumoto M.D. and Ziro Kaneko M.D. H-reflex and EMG of the mental and hyoid muscles during sleep, with special reference to narcolepsy. Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology, 18 (5), April 1965, pp. 487-492.

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## Shift

Looks great! I was going to say that you should write something about sleepwalking, but then you went and did it. Two thumbs up  ::goodjob:: 





> Looks great! I was going to say that you should write something about sleepwalking, but then you went and did it. Two thumbs up



Hmm I'm thinking, newbies to this post probably aren't going to scroll down for the updated one. Would you like me to post a little note and a link to the updated part?

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## Thor

> Hmm I'm thinking, newbies to this post probably aren't going to scroll down for the updated one. Would you like me to post a little note and a link to the updated part?



Yes, if you think that would be helpful. But if you are one of those people with special, magical powers here on DV, the best thing would be to actually replace the original article with the updated version (as I intended to do via editing).

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## Shift

> Yes, if you think that would be helpful. But if you are one of those people with special, magical powers here on DV, the best thing would be to actually replace the original article with the updated version (as I intended to do via editing).



Ah, I assumed that since you just posted it you didn't want me to do that  ::tongue::

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## Thor

> Ah, I assumed that since you just posted it you didn't want me to do that



Well, I first tried to PM it to you, but the length exceeded a 25000 character limit, so my only option was to post it.

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## moonshine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqlhkPkpNMM

Link to extract form SALTCUBE video on Sleep Paralysis.

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## Sanquis

So, what you're trying to say is that most of the members are lieing!
 :Eek:

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## Shift

> So, what you're trying to say is that most of the members are lieing!



Not lying, just misinformed. There is a sleep disorder, then there are some common hallucinations that most people experience while falling asleep. 

It's like calling schizophrenia artistic inspiration. You may get inspired by the hallucinations and paranoia you get from the disorder, and you may just get inspiration all on your own, but being inspired in and of itself doesn't give you schizophrenia. Not just that, but its stupid for people to wander around claiming to have a disorder when all they can do is paint canvasses. It gets much more complicated because, say, you can only be inspired at 3 in the morning while you tend to experience schizophrenic 'attacks' of hallucinations at 7 in the morning that may or may not inspire you.

I don't know that's a bad analogy. I was going somewhere with it and then I got bored  :Sad:

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## Thor

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqlhkPkpNMM
> 
> Link to extract form SALTCUBE video on Sleep Paralysis.



Strange that they would claim that you need SP to have an OBE, because a study based on 400 cases of OBE found that this was only rarely the case:

"Most of Green's cases occurred to people whose physical body was lying down at the time (75%). A further 18% were sitting and the rest were walking, standing or were 'indeterminate.' In fact it seemed that muscular relaxation was an essential part of many people's experience. Just a few found that their body was paralyzed. A feeling of paralysis was found to be only rarely a prelude to an OBE."
Out of Body Experience FAQ discussing
Green, C., Out-of-the-body Experiences, London: Hamish Hamilton, 1968.

PS: I've had that "lead blanket" feeling many times, but always when I try to move I find that I'm able to, so this does not mean that you're paralyzed.





> Strange that you would claim I said you "need" SP to have an OBE/Lucid Dream.
> Given that I didn't.



I never said _you_ claimed that, but the video you referred to pretty much implied it.





> As to the lead blankey feeling, the saltcube video describes this as "partial sleep paralysis".



There ain't no such thing as "partial sleep paralysis", neither in the sense of the disorder or REM atonia, because that would be self-contradictory; if you can move you are in no way paralyzed. As I wrote in my article this is simply reduced muscle tone, and it happens naturally when you fall asleep.





> Thats pretty clear. SP=Where REM Atonia takes place in the waking state.



So far so good.





> On that basis, I'm going we have to conclude that Sleep Paralysis is exactly the right term to use to describe the stage which can be reached during a WILD.



No, that does not make much sense, because then you would have to be saying that WILDs are taking place in the awake state.





> See.



Moonshine, when I'm talking to you I don't address you in the third person plural. The word "they" clearly refers to the people who made the Saltcube video.





> This is a very common phenomenon (even experienced by yourself also it seems).



But I've never had any problems moving when I get the lead blanket feeling.





> So you now agree that Sleep Paralysis can legitimately be used to describe Rem Atonia whilst the mind is awake.
> Phew!



I _now agree_? Isn't this _exactly_ what it says in note 3 in the article I wrote?





> LOL. No. Read my statement.



Ok, let's look at it again: "On that basis, it seems conclusive that Sleep Paralysis is exactly the right term to use to describe the stage which can be reached during a WILD."

So your own statements say:
 SP is REM atonia experienced while awake SP describes a stage reached during a WILD
From these statements I draw the conclusion that you you think it's possible to be awake during a WILD.

----------


## moonshine

> Moonshine, when I'm talking to you I don't address you in the third person plural. The word "they" clearly refers to the people who made the Saltcube video.



Fair nuff. My bad. 





> But I've never had any problems moving when I get the lead blanket feeling.



Hence, the "partial" no?





> I _now agree_? Isn't this _exactly_ what it says in note 3 in the article I wrote?



Ah right. Sorry about the misunderstanding, given some of the other comments I thought we were still discussing whether or not
Sleep Paralysis was acceptable terminology. Something which you originally disputed. 

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=67632

Again my bad. Glad we're singing from the same hymn sheet. 
You might want to bring Shift up to speed though.






> I _now agree_? Isn't this _exactly_ 
> Ok, let's look at it again: "On that basis, it seems conclusive that Sleep Paralysis is exactly the right term to use to describe the stage which can be reached during a WILD."
> 
> So your own statements say:
>  SP is REM atonia experienced while awake SP describes a stage reached during a WILD
> From these statements I draw the conclusion that you you think it's possible to be awake during a WILD.



How about we call it a wild attempt then?  ::roll::

----------


## Thor

> Hence, the "partial" no?



No. After the lead blanket feeling sets in, when I try to move I can do it just as easily as when I'm fully awake. Apparently this was also the experience of xxstimpzxx in this thread that you may recall. He says: "a few times ive felt as if i was coverd by a metal blanket, and thought i had made it but when i tried to move my arm it instantly felt normal". That's exactly what it's like.





> How about we call it a wild attempt then?



Ok, but then you're back to things that I already wrote about in my article. I already said that you can use SP (the disorder) to initiate WILDs.

----------


## moonshine

> Ok, but then you're back to things that I already wrote about in my article. I already said that you can use SP (the disorder) to initiate WILDs.



SP doesn't have to be a disorder though.

I realise I'm arguing over nothing here.
But when in rome.  :tongue2: 





> No. After the lead blanket feeling sets in, when I try to move I can do it just as easily as when I'm fully awake. Apparently this was also the experience of xxstimpzxx in this thread that you may recall. He says: "a few times ive felt as if i was coverd by a metal blanket, and thought i had made it but when i tried to move my arm it instantly felt normal". That's exactly what it's like.



Well I guess this isn't the same as my experience, or that described by the salt cube video, where you can move but its hard work and sluggish.

----------


## Robot_Butler

I think the problem with your write up is you are referring to sleep paralysis as it occurs in the general population.  It is abnormal, and therefore considered a sleep disorder.  It is experienced differently when you are actively seeking it in a WILD attempt.

I just don't see how this all applies to lucid dreaming.  Seeking sleep paralysis is possible, and obviously helpful when learning to WILD.  Why would you even try to argue otherwise?

----------


## Thor

> I think the problem with your write up is you are referring to sleep paralysis as it occurs in the general population.  It is abnormal, and therefore considered a sleep disorder.  It is experienced differently when you are actively seeking it in a WILD attempt.



How do you know that what people are experiencing in a WILD attempt is actually REM atonia occuring outside of REM? It could be some other sensation that people interpret as "sleep paralysis" because they have been told that they would get it. First year medical students are often convinced that they have all the symptoms they read about in textbooks.





> I just don't see how this all applies to lucid dreaming.  Seeking sleep paralysis is possible, and obviously helpful when learning to WILD.  Why would you even try to argue otherwise?



Well, certainly people could _desire_ SP (even though it would be pointless), but I don't see how that in itself would increase the likelihood of it actually happening. I haven't come across any documentation that could support this. And since you are making this particular claim, it is up to you to find that documentation. But even the existence of a "sleep paralysis induced by wishing for it" effect wouldn't mean that this route to a WILD would be more efficient than any other route.

----------


## Robot_Butler

> How do you know that what people are experiencing in a WILD attempt is actually REM atonia occuring outside of REM? It could be some other sensation that people interpret as "sleep paralysis" because they have been told that they would get it.



Why would you assume it is not?  It feels like SP to the person experiencing it, happens at the same time SP happens, and has all the symptoms of SP.  I can tell you from experience, it is sleep paralysis.  It is so obvious, I can't see why you would hypothesize it is not.





> Well, certainly people could _desire_ SP (even though it would be pointless), but I don't see how that in itself would increase the likelihood of it actually happening. I haven't come across any documentation that could support this. And since you are making this particular claim, it is up to you to find that documentation. But even the existence of a "sleep paralysis induced by wishing for it" effect wouldn't mean that this route to a WILD would be more efficient than any other route.



How can you say there is not documentation of people consciously inducing sleep paralysis?  Are you discounting every WILD and OOBE experience that has ever included SP?  You are pretty much calling everyone who posts on this forum about their SP experiences liars.  That is just ridiculous.

----------


## moonshine

I have to agree with RB. 
Thors thesis is that it can't be "paralysis" of you can move. This is a rather constrained semantic argument. Almost a word game. 

I don't see any reason why your body can't be in sleep paralysis when you're not moving, and can come out of sleep paralysis when you decide you consciously want to move. After all sleep paralysis is designed to occur when you are asleep not wake. When your body/brain twigs your actually awake, the right thing for it to do would be to shut SP down no?

Heres my proof. I felt the "wave" during wild attempts. 
I've also felt it when waking up. I can only assume that this was SP switching off as I wake. This is after all what is supposed to happen.





> Well, certainly people could _desire_ SP (even though it would be pointless), but I don't see how that in itself would increase the likelihood of it actually happening. I haven't come across any documentation that could support this. And since you are making this particular claim, it is up to you to find that documentation.



How about**: Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming. Dr Stephen Laberge. PhD. 1st edition 1990. Chapter 4: Falling Asleep Consciously. Page 108. Attention on body or self.

Though really Thor, as your the one going railing against the common understanding and masses of anecdotal experiences, the onus does seem to be on you to prove the same before you start posting threads telling everyone else they are wrong. 






> But even the existence of a "sleep paralysis induced by wishing for it" effect wouldn't mean that this route to a WILD would be more efficient than any other route.



And?.....This is an argument no one is actually having with you.
Oh, and generally, you don't get SP by wishing for it. "Passive" is the key word here.

----------


## Shift

> I have to agree with RB. 
> Thors thesis is that it can't be "paralysis" of you can move. This is a rather constrained semantic argument. Almost a word game. 
> 
> I don't see any reason why your body can't be in sleep paralysis when you're not moving, and can come out of sleep paralysis when you decide you consciously want to move. After all sleep paralysis is designed to occur when you are asleep not wake. When your body/brain twigs your actually awake, the right thing for it to do would be to shut SP down no?
> 
> Heres my proof. I felt the "wave" during wild attempts. 
> I've also felt it when waking up. I can only assume that this was SP switching off as I wake. This is after all what is supposed to happen.



You are so badly confusing the natural REM atonia and the disorder Sleep Paralysis, no wonder we're having this discussion. Semantics indeed. That's like calling cancer a stubbed toe and dreaming schizophrenia.

----------


## moonshine

> You are so badly confusing the natural REM atonia and the disorder Sleep Paralysis, no wonder we're having this discussion. Semantics indeed. That's like calling cancer a stubbed toe and dreaming schizophrenia.



Not really. 

REM Atonia = Paralysis whilst in REM sleep.
Sleep Paralysis = REM Atonia whilst conscious.

The sleeping disorder is differentiated with the tag "isolated" sleep paralysis.

I'm not sure it can be any clearer.

----------


## Shift

> Nor really. 
> 
> REM Atonia = Paralysis whilst in REM sleep.
> Sleep Paralysis = REM Atonia whilst conscious.
> 
> The sleeping disorder is differentiated with the tag "isolated" sleep paralysis.
> 
> I'm not sure it can be any clearer.



I finally see what you are saying about sleep paralysis as the disorder. But if that was the case, then we wouldn't even know about it. So then no one should be running around talking about sleep paralysis because most of them wouldn't even be aware that it's happening. Since most of us lack an EEG and all of that, then the only times we can know we are in sleep paralysis is when we have attempted to move and found that we were paralyzed. I have to admit that I have pretty much stopped reading the responses to this though. So if I'm a bit off that's why, I'm getting kind of bored with the discussion. Sleep paralysis is a disorder. Lucid dreamers are crazy. REM atonia happens during REM stages. Hypnagogia happens early in the sleep cycle. My eyes hurt because I'm so tired.

So when I'm in a lucid dream during a REM stage, and I'm conscious, and my body is paralyzed, I'm in sleep paralysis?... how did we go from debating hypnagogia to also debating the use of 'sleep paralysis' to mean 'paralysis during sleep' (ie synonymous to REM atonia) anyway?
Lucid dreamers blur the boundaries between conscious and unconscious, awake and asleep. That's part of the problem, I think. We are conscious when we shouldn't be. We can hallucinate and experience things that aren't happening. We can try to break out of something we are experiencing because we were conscious enough to do so.

_Anyway_ my main qualm is the use of 'sleep paralysis' to refer to hypnagogia. I think it is misleading and confusing for people who are trying to learn lucid dreaming. If we can all be responsible and realize that the terms are misused and leading a lot of people astray in ignorance, then maybe we as a whole community of lucid dreamers can progress. Maybe not. I don't really care. It just annoys me when, as a DG, I have to continuously correct people. I mean noobs are excited to be "in SP" which means they've made it to REM stages, but that's not the case if all they're experiencing is hypnagogia... the tip of the iceberg when it comes to falling asleep.

And I still think the name for the disorder was stupid to begin with and should be something more clear like "Persistent REM atonia" or something along those lines. "Abnormal Atonia or NREM atonia" probably since it can be experienced prior to REM sleep as well as after.  ::doh::  bahhhhhhh

----------


## Robot_Butler

> Lucid dreamers blur the boundaries between conscious and unconscious, awake and asleep. That's part of the problem, I think. We are conscious when we shouldn't be. We can hallucinate and experience things that aren't happening. We can try to break out of something we are experiencing because we were conscious enough to do so.



I think you've hit it on the head here, Shift.  There really are no hard boundaries when it comes to consciousness and the onset of sleep.  It is easy to classify different "stages" as a limited model to describe the typical experience, but it is dangerous to give too much importance to this model.  That is why semantics are dangerous in a situation like this.  They begin to limit our understanding of something instead of expanding it.

----------


## moonshine

> I mean noobs are excited to be "in SP" which means they've made it to REM stages, but that's not the case if all they're experiencing is hypnagogia... the tip of the iceberg when it comes to falling asleep.



But, as discussed its quite possible to be in SP with out being in REM sleep.
SP is indeed part of Hypnagogia. 

Don't see why noobs shouldn't get excited. Its a big step in the right direction.

----------


## Shift

> But, as discussed its quite possible to be in SP with out being in REM sleep.
> SP is indeed part of Hypnagogia. 
> 
> Don't see why noobs shouldn't get excited. Its a big step in the right direction.



Obviously, since by definition sleep paralysis is REM atonia outside of REM sleep...

SP _is not_ hypnagogia. It _can_ be experienced at the same times but the majority of the time all you are getting are tactile hallucinations. Just because you are hallucinating doesn't mean that you are paralyzed. Just because you are paralyzed doesn't mean you will hallucinate. This is _exactly_ what the problem is.

----------


## Thor

> Why would you assume it is not?  It feels like SP to the person experiencing it, happens at the same time SP happens, and has all the symptoms of SP.  I can tell you from experience, it is sleep paralysis.  It is so obvious, I can't see why you would hypothesize it is not.



I never said no one gets sleep paralysis; some people do. The problem is when some of those people generalize their experience, and say that this is what WILDing _should_ be like and tell newbies that this is how you induce WILDs. It is simply not the case: a feeling of being paralyzed is unnecessary for WILDing.

A study based on 400 cases of OBE found that a feeling of being paralyzed was rare:

"Most of Green's cases occurred to people whose physical body was lying down at the time (75%). A further 18% were sitting and the rest were walking, standing or were 'indeterminate.' In fact it seemed that muscular relaxation was an essential part of many people's experience. Just a few found that their body was paralyzed. A feeling of paralysis was found to be only rarely a prelude to an OBE."
Out of Body Experience FAQ  discussing
Green, C., Out-of-the-body Experiences, London: Hamish Hamilton, 1968.





> How can you say there is not documentation of people consciously inducing sleep paralysis?  Are you discounting every WILD and OOBE experience that has ever included SP?  You are pretty much calling everyone who posts on this forum about their SP experiences liars.  That is just ridiculous.



I have never dismissed anyone's personal experience, but based on the available evidence I'd say that it is highly likely that many of those who have reported sleep paralysis are misinterpreting other sensations as sleep paralysis because they have heard that this is what they should expect. I've seen lots of people say that they have induced sleep paralysis, but I have never seen the evidence to support it.

----------


## moonshine

> Obviously, since by definition sleep paralysis is REM atonia outside of REM sleep...



Can't be that obvious, since at the top of this page you stated: 




> You are so badly confusing the natural REM atonia and the disorder Sleep Paralysis, no wonder we're having this discussion. Semantics indeed. That's like calling cancer a stubbed toe and dreaming schizophrenia.







> SP _is not_ hypnagogia. It _can_ be experienced at the same times but the majority of the time all you are getting are tactile hallucinations. Just because you are hallucinating doesn't mean that you are paralyzed. Just because you are paralyzed doesn't mean you will hallucinate. This is _exactly_ what the problem is.



Aren't you mixing Hypnagogia with hypnogogic imagery/hallucinations?
Hypnagogia as a general term used to describe physiological processes of falling asleep. 
SP is indeed one of those general processes.

----------


## Thor

> I have to agree with RB. 
> Thors thesis is that it can't be "paralysis" of you can move. This is a rather constrained semantic argument. Almost a word game. 
> 
> I don't see any reason why your body can't be in sleep paralysis when you're not moving, and can come out of sleep paralysis when you decide you consciously want to move. After all sleep paralysis is designed to occur when you are asleep not wake. When your body/brain twigs your actually awake, the right thing for it to do would be to shut SP down no?



It's not a word game. Atonia is produced by mechanisms in the pons and medulla oblongata that gate the motor neural signals from the cortex. So how would these mechanisms distinguish between signals generated by dreamed versus non-dreamed motor behavior in the cortex? In other words, if atonia was turned on in wakefulness as you are assuming, then why would it be turned off just because you wanted it to? And how could it happen instantly the very moment you decide to move?

When people find themselves in sleep paralysis (the real thing), they are not able to come out of it instantly, despite desperately wanting to. Otherwise sleep paralysis could not have been detected, and hence would not have been a disorder.

----------


## moonshine

> I never said no one gets sleep paralysis; some people do. The problem is when some of those people generalize their experience, and say that this is what WILDing _should_ be like and tell newbies that this is how you induce WILDs. It is simply not the case: a feeling of being paralyzed is unnecessary for WILDing.



I think everyone has agreed with this already though Thor.
That there are multiple ways of WILD is pretty clear.
All you need to do is check out the tutorial section.






> I have never dismissed anyone's personal experience, but based on the available evidence I'd say that it is highly likely that many of those who have reported sleep paralysis are misinterpreting other sensations as sleep paralysis because they have heard that this is what they should expect. I've seen lots of people say that they have induced sleep paralysis, but I have never seen the evidence to support it.



You were pretty dismissive when you stated that there is no such thing as partial sleep paralysis. And when you stated that if you can move its not paralysis. I've already made my point on these issues so won't reitterate. 

As you don't appear think anecdotal evidence counts, then I guess you will never "see" any "real" evidence. 

However, in my book, as Sleep paralysis does indeed occour outside of REM Sleep, can be induced with practice, is described in several key texts, and supported by a significant amount of anecdotal evidence to suggest common experiences I'm inclinded to accept it.

----------


## Thor

> How about**: Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming. Dr Stephen Laberge. PhD. 1st edition 1990. Chapter 4: Falling Asleep Consciously. Page 108. Attention on body or self.



It is abundantly clear from the discussion on pages 108-109 that he's talking about sleep paralysis as a disorder, and how you can turn it into an advantage by initiating WILDs from it. I already covered this in my article.





> Though really Thor, as your the one going railing against the common understanding and masses of anecdotal experiences, the onus does seem to be on you to prove the same before you start posting threads telling everyone else they are wrong.



No, the burden of proof is always on the person making the positive claim. Thus, if you say that people who do not suffer from sleep paralysis may be able to induce atonia in wakefulness, it is up to you to provide the evidence to support this.

----------


## moonshine

> It's not a word game. Atonia is produced by mechanisms in the pons and medulla oblongata that gate the motor neural signals from the cortex. So how would these mechanisms distinguish between signals generated by dreamed versus non-dreamed motor behavior in the cortex? In other words, if atonia was turned on in wakefulness as you are assuming, then why would it be turned off just because you wanted it to? And how could it happen instantly the very moment you decide to move?
> 
> When people find themselves in sleep paralysis (the real thing), they are not able to come out of it instantly, despite desperately wanting to. Otherwise sleep paralysis could not have been detected, and hence would not have been a disorder.



I'm really not sure what your getting at, as you appear to be condradicting points you have already accepted. 

REM attonia can and does occour outside of Rem Sleep. Hence "Sleep Paralysis". The disorder Sleep paralysis is very scary for people, but generally only lasts a minute or so. And they do break out of it. It just seems like a long time. But this is a disorder. It seems to me that it takes longer to break out of because of the state of mind. Whats to say that it can't be easier for a non-distressed mind hmmm? And who's to say its a on/off switch. Might it not be a progressive thing?

By the way, why shouldn't it turn off just because you want it too. Doesn't that just mean its doing its job as its supposed to?

I do however agree with one point, in that some may mistake partial sleep paralysis (which you do not accept) for full sleep paralysis. It is then up to others to advise them accordingly. But simply dismissing their very real physiological experiences isn't very helpful. Not saying this is you, but its something I've seen time and time again on threads.





> It is abundantly clear from the discussion on pages 108-109 that he's talking about sleep paralysis as a disorder, and how you can turn it into an advantage by initiating WILDs from it. I already covered this in my article.



Of He's talking about Sleep Paralysis (whether its the disorder or not). This isn't a surprise.  You asked for the evidence that SP is a legitimate way of inducing a WILD. This chapter clearly shows that it is. 

Are we not just going over old ground here?





> No, the burden of proof is always on the person making the positive claim. Thus, if you say that people who do not suffer from sleep paralysis may be able to induce atonia in wakefulness, it is up to you to provide the evidence to support this.



I'd simply refer you to the same chapter. Which describes the induction of Sleep Paralysis whilst conscious (Sleep Paralysis being REM atonia in wakefulness). You are therefore the one contradicting the evidence. 

Its certainly not an on/off switch with which you can consciously will SP to happen. But then no one has ever claimed as much.

----------


## Thor

> You were pretty dismissive when you stated that there is no such thing as partial sleep paralysis. And when you stated that if you can move its not paralysis. I've already made my point on these issues so won't reitterate.



It is crucial to distinguish between experience and interpretation. Suppose you said: "I've got a runny nose. It must be the flu." The first sentence is your _experience_, the second is your _interpretation_ of that experience. Those are two very different things. And if your doctor says: "No, I think it's most likely an allergy," it does _not_ mean he's calling you a liar.





> As you don't appear think anecdotal evidence counts, then I guess you will never "see" any "real" evidence.



I don't think it would be very hard to investigate this. Let a large number of subjects WILD under EEG and H-reflex monitoring. Then correlate self-reports of "sleep paralysis" with registered atonia and REM sleep. I'm sure the results would be interesting.

----------


## Shift

> Can't be that obvious, since at the top of this page you stated: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't you mixing Hypnagogia with hypnogogic imagery/hallucinations?
> Hypnagogia as a general term used to describe physiological processes of falling asleep. 
> SP is indeed one of those general processes.



Ah you're right, I did misread that as hypnagogic hallucinations.

And you know that's another thing I'm going to get anal about. Because yea, people use "hypnagogia" to refer to HH. Dammit. Ughhh who started all this confusion in the first place?!  ::?:

----------


## Robot_Butler

It seems that we are arguing the same points over and over.  I don't really see this going anywhere. 

Just to reiterate, since thor seems to keep ignoring the fact that:

1) You can experience sleep paralysis outside of REM sleep
2) You can remain conscious during REM sleep
3) You can actively seek sleep paralysis.

What, exactly do you think WILD is, thor?  It is maintaining consciousness through all hypnagogia, into a dream.  This makes moot all studies that try to pin down when sleep paralysis does and not happen.  You can make it happen.  If you focus on your body during a WILD, you will be aware of the changes in your body.  If you move your focus away from your body during WILD, you can avoid being aware of these changes.  

Maybe you should sum up your write-up by saying people can chose to use SP as a tool during WILD if they find it helpful, or can chose to avoid it if they find it unpleasant.

----------


## Shift

> It seems that we are arguing the same points over and over.  I don't really see this going anywhere. 
> 
> Just to reiterate, since thor seems to keep ignoring the fact that:
> 
> 1) You can experience sleep paralysis outside of REM sleep
> 2) You can remain conscious during REM sleep
> 3) You can actively seek sleep paralysis.
> 
> What, exactly do you think WILD is, thor?  It is maintaining consciousness through all hypnagogia, into a dream.  This makes moot all studies that try to pin down when sleep paralysis does and not happen.  You can make it happen.  If you focus on your body during a WILD, you will be aware of the changes in your body.  If you move your focus away from your body during WILD, you can avoid being aware of these changes.  
> ...



I guess the real question is if, while WILDing, you lucid dream during REM sleep or not. It seems easier to say no, that you are experiencing a WILD during an NREM dream. But if you do enter REM atonia because you are in REM sleep, and because you are still conscious, you are in REM atonia versus SP. Is that what people mean when they say they achieved sleep paralysis? Or did paralysis kick in out of REM, and it really was sleep paralysis?
I dunno didn't LaBerge research this? Everyone is always debating the ease with which you can dream during NREM stages. Blah blah blah I don't know what I'm talking about.

----------


## Thor

> Just to reiterate, since thor seems to keep ignoring the fact that:
> 
> 1) You can experience sleep paralysis outside of REM sleep



It is implied by the very definition of sleep paralysis that it occurs outside of REM sleep (ref. note 3), so I can't see how I can be ignoring it.





> 2) You can remain conscious during REM sleep



Obviously. What makes you think I'm ignoring it.





> 3) You can actively seek sleep paralysis.



This depends a lot on how you define "seek" and "sleep paralysis". If you define sleep paralysis as REM atonia, there is no point in seeking it because you'll get it unless there is something seriously wrong with you. If you define sleep paralysis as the disorder where REM atonia is activated when you are awake, there is no evidence to suggest that seeking it can affect the chances of actually getting it. The incidence of people that frequently experience sleep paralysis is rather low. For lucid dreamers that incidence is likely to be only marginally higher (since some people discover lucid dreaming because of sleep paralysis). Obviously these people will be just as likely to experience sleep paralysis in a WILD attempt as when going to sleep normally. The unsupported claim is that the majority of people who do not suffer from sleep paralysis would somehow be able to induce it just because they are trying to WILD.





> What, exactly do you think WILD is, thor?  It is maintaining consciousness through all hypnagogia, into a dream.



Exactly. And if you have a normal physiology your sensory input is suppressed concomitantly with REM atonia, so there is no experience of paralysis. Your kinesthetic sense is switched from your real body to your dream body.





> You can make it happen.



No, if you don't ususally get sleep paralysis when going to sleep, you won't get it just by WILDing. At least I haven't seen any evidence that could support this. And besides you don't need it.





> Maybe you should sum up your write-up by saying people can chose to use SP as a tool during WILD if they find it helpful, or can chose to avoid it if they find it unpleasant.



Well, I actually did say that if you get sleep paralysis you can use it as a tool to initiate WILDs from.

So my position on this subject can be summed up as follows:
Sleep paralysis is neither necessary nor sufficient for WILDing.The chances of getting sleep paralysis are determined by your natural predisposition to get it.The chances of getting sleep paralysis are not affected by WILDing.
But I'd be willing to be convinced otherwise if someone could come up with credible evidence to support it.

----------


## moonshine

Oh you'd be willing to consider it would you  :smiley: 
Big of you.

No one is arguing with you on point 1. 
Points 2 and 3 are your opinion basically. 

The whole point of using SP to LD is by deliberately inducing it.  You suggest this is unsupported - although you have decided that tons on anecdotal evidence, common experiences, as well as Laberges guidance itself, doesn't count. 

At the moment your argument is simply that you don't believe it. Which, when you get down to it, is no argument at all.

BTW The trick to inducing SP is not to "seek" it. This is common in all of the tutorials.

----------


## Shift

> Oh you'd be willing to consider it would you 
> Big of you.



argumentum ad hominem

I agree with everything Thor just said. He talks so pretty, I don't think I'm gonna waste my time babbling when he can put the same things so eloquently  ::shock::

----------


## moonshine

> argumentum ad hominem



Its not a personal attack, though it is tounge in cheek.
Thor would be "willing to consider it" if he is provided evidence. 
Although thor has already discounted the considerable evidence which already exists. I don't feel his explanation for doing so is convincing.

----------


## Robot_Butler

> So my position on this subject can be summed up as follows:Sleep paralysis is neither necessary nor sufficient for WILDing.The chances of getting sleep paralysis are determined by your natural predisposition to get it.The chances of getting sleep paralysis are not affected by WILDing.



1. Sleep paralysis can be a helpful tool when learning to WILD.
2. The chances of experiencing sleep paralysis are influenced by your sleeping behavior, which can be altered at will.
3. You can learn to achieve sleep paralysis at will through any of the techniques frequently discussed on this forum and others like it.

I don't know why you are even arguing these points.  They are well accepted and easily experienced first hand.  There is no need to hypothesize or theorize about something that is so easily experienced. You are really just pulling this bizarre disbelief straight out of your ass.

----------


## Thor

> I agree with everything Thor just said. He talks so pretty, I don't think I'm gonna waste my time babbling when he can put the same things so eloquently



Thanks a lot, Shift! That's a very big compliment.

----------


## moonshine

> [/LIST]
> I don't know why you are even arguing these points.  They are well accepted and easily experienced first hand.  There is no need to hypothesize or theorize about something that is so easily experienced. You are really just pulling this bizarre disbelief straight out of your ass.



Don't forget RB, the burden of proof is on us rather than Thor. Apparently.  :tongue2:

----------


## Shift

> Thanks a lot, Shift! That's a very big compliment.



Honestly, I can't say something without writing 10 pages of nonsense during which I get ridiculously off topic, forget my points, and create analogies that don't make sense to anyone but me  ::shock::  Suffice it to say you do a much better job  ::tongue::  And are worthy of any such compliments  ::D:

----------


## Thor

> Thor would be "willing to consider it" if he is provided evidence.



No, I didn't write that. I wrote "willing to be convinced otherwise". To be willing to be convinced otherwise is a scientific, skeptical attitude. But it means the evidence would have to be more than just pseudoscientific myths.

For example, everyone knows that the left brain hemisphere is logical and the right hemisphere is creative. Countless books and articles will tell you this. Yet it is all nonsense. It is a pseudoscientific myth that has been repeated so many times that people believe it to be true.





> 2. The chances of experiencing sleep paralysis are influenced by your sleeping behavior, which can be altered at will.



That's partially correct. _If_ you are predisposed to sleep paralysis it can be aggravated by sleep deprivation. But remember that the majority of people never experience sleep paralysis.





> 3. You can learn to achieve sleep paralysis at will through any of the techniques frequently discussed on this forum and others like it.



No, this is a pseudoscientific myth. And all those techniques you are talking about could be improved a lot simply by deleting the word "paralysis". For example, "...and then you will enter sleep paralysis" would become "...and then you will enter sleep", which is far more correct.

----------


## moonshine

> That's partially correct. _If_ you are predisposed to sleep paralysis it can be aggravated by sleep deprivation. But remember that the majority of people never experience sleep paralysis.



The majority of people do not attempt to deliberately initiate SP. Lucid dreamers do.
You simply refuse to deal with the distinction between Sleep Paralysis and "Isolated" Sleep Paralysis.
Yet psychologists and scientists appear happy to do so. 






> No, this is a pseudoscientific myth.



Aside from simply disregarding (with little justification) the evidence put before you, you have not made any case to support that statement.
Which renders it nothing more than your opinion. 





> And all those techniques you are talking about could be improved a lot simply by deleting the word "paralysis". For example, "...and then you will enter sleep paralysis" would become "...and then you will enter sleep", which is far more correct.



As to what we call the techniques, deleting the word paralysis or not changes nothing. It is, once again, a semantic squabble.

----------


## Robot_Butler

I had another great WILD this weekend where I consciously induced Sleep Paralysis.  I was consciously in and out of SP several times before, during, and after the dream.  That proves it right there.

If you maintain awareness through the hypnagogia, into SWS, and then into  REM, you will stay aware enough to actively experience REM atonia, and therefore induce sleep paralysis.

----------


## moonshine

> I had another great WILD this weekend where I consciously induced Sleep Paralysis.  I was consciously in and out of SP several times before, during, and after the dream.  That proves it right there.
> .



You and numerous others, including Laberge himself. 
Yet I note that Thor is still showing up on SP threads and roundly dismissing the notion.

----------


## ink_stained

noobie here.
i read thor's essay and appreciate your explanations.  i think i'm classified under 'sleep paralysis as a disorder'.  i've never thought about using the paralysis or HH to WILD, but it seems improbable with the level of intensity. I've gotten into a WILD before, but when the SP comes, it completly smashes everything else away.  
any suggestions? links or other forums?

----------


## Shift

> Hey, just found an interesting study.  Turns out its completely possible to have muscle atonia during non-rem sleep, and actually in some cycles its quite common (close to 40% of the time you are in NREM you are actually in atonia in some cases)
> 
> * Selective REM sleep deprivation during daytime
> II. Muscle atonia in non-REM sleep * 
> 
> *  Esther  Werth, Peter  Achermann, and Alexander A.  Borbély *   Institute of Pharmacology and Toxicology, University of Zürich, 8057 Zürich, Switzerland 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 :smiley:

----------


## Robot_Butler

That makes a lot of sense, Shift.  I would especially like to read more about**:




> REM sleep equivalent and that it may be a marker of homeostatic and circadian REM sleep regulating processes. MAN episodes may contribute to the compensation of an REM sleep deficit.



I'll check out the article.  Another piece of the puzzle that can help us understand what regulates our body's dream cycles, and hopefully pin down good times to WILD.

----------


## Mortalis

> That makes a lot of sense, Shift.  I would especially like to read more about**:
> 
> 
> I'll check out the article.  Another piece of the puzzle that can help us understand what regulates our body's dream cycles, and hopefully pin down good times to WILD.



Yeah, that was an interesting part of the paper... However, I think that in their findings recovery sleep actually had a lower percentage of MAN (muscle atonia in NREM) than daytime sleep...either way its a really cool step towards understanding the mechanisms that control the neurotransmitters of sleep.

----------


## Thor

> http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/co...ull/283/2/R527



The methodolgy used in this study is not sufficient to measure REM atonia. Measuring REM atonia is done by monitoring the H-reflex of the soleus muscle (cf. note 14 in my original article). In the cited study they simply measured the submental EMG of the test subject, which showed low muscle tone near REM episodes. Low muscle tone in NREM is nothing new, and it does not imply atonia.

----------


## Mortalis

> The methodolgy used in this study is not sufficient to measure REM atonia. Measuring REM atonia is done by monitoring the H-reflex of the soleus muscle (cf. note 14 in my original article). In the cited study they simply measured the submental EMG of the test subject, which showed low muscle tone near REM episodes. Low muscle tone in NREM is nothing new, and it does not imply atonia.




Well that confirms my theory, you are clearly more knowledgeable about this science than the actual scientists who study it.  In fact I'm sure when they said "atonia" they meant "low muscle tone" Or maybe it isn't sufficient because it contradicts your thoughts on the matter...

I vote TROLL.

----------


## Robot_Butler

> I vote TROLL.



 :Sad:  I don't think so. I appreciate the research and attention Thor is putting into this.  I certainly have learned a lot from reading his cited articles.  I think, like most debates, it comes down to fundamental differences in how we are all viewing the problem.  

Not to put words into anyone's mouth, but It seems like we are all trying to figure out how far the term Sleep Paralysis should extend.  Does it only apply to REM-atonia?  Does it apply to NREM-atonia (if such a thing exists)?  Does it apply to paralysis due to low muscle tone (NREM-lowtonia LOL).  I think it applies to any situation where a person near sleep experiences paralysis, regardless of the biological reasons.  I think it describes the experience.

More fundamentally, I think we need to look to science to help understand our experiences.  Especially when it comes to something as subjective as consciousness.  These definitions are models to describe what is happening to our body.  We can't afford to lose track of reality and  get trapped in our own definitions as some set of imaginary rules.

----------


## Mortalis

What I find frustrating is the so called requirement to provide proof of positive claims, and when it is provided, its never quite good enough.  If the study wasn't done in the same way as his cited study, its wrong.  If the study calls something atonia he says its actually low muscle tone..I don't think scientists often write atonia if they don't mean atonia...Just my thoughts on his antagonism

----------


## moonshine

To be honest, given the number of threads on SP on the board, Thors opinions don't seem to matter. 

I'm content with the definition of SP defined by Laberge, and the definition in common use amongst the Dream Views community. A common definition which lets us communicate readily and offer advice. Semantic quabbles about the correct use are pointless. 

Thor, I appreciate the texts you unearthed. 
But I'm afraid I can't support assertions which simply ignore the experiences of the community or rely on your "positive claim" boondoggle. 

I'm sure you have a lot of valuable insight to share about Lucid dreaming etc and I look forward to seeing you around. But I will take you SP advice with a pinch of salt.

----------


## moonshine

> What I find frustrating is the so called requirement to provide proof of positive claims, and when it is provided, its never quite good enough.  If the study wasn't done in the same way as his cited study, its wrong.  If the study calls something atonia he says its actually low muscle tone..I don't think scientists often write atonia if they don't mean atonia...Just my thoughts on his antagonism



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance




> Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, and also the awareness of one's behavior. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors.[1] Cognitive dissonance theory is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology.
> 
> Dissonance normally occurs when a person perceives a logical inconsistency among his or her cognitions. This happens when one idea implies the opposite of another. For example, a belief in animal rights could be interpreted as inconsistent with eating meat or wearing fur. Noticing the contradiction would lead to dissonance, which could be experienced as anxiety, guilt, shame, anger, embarrassment, stress, and other negative emotional states. When people's ideas are consistent with each other, they are in a state of harmony or consonance. If cognitions are unrelated, they are categorized as irrelevant to each other and do not lead to dissonance.
> 
> A powerful cause of dissonance is when an idea conflicts with a fundamental element of the self-concept, such as "I am a good person" or "I made the right decision." This can lead to rationalization when a person is presented with evidence of a bad choice. It can also lead to confirmation bias, the denial of disconfirming evidence, and other ego defense mechanisms.

----------


## Thor

> Well that confirms my theory, you are clearly more knowledgeable about this science than the actual scientists who study it.  In fact I'm sure when they said "atonia" they meant "low muscle tone" Or maybe it isn't sufficient because it contradicts your thoughts on the matter...



You are correct: when they said "atonia" they simply meant "low muscle tone". It's never enough to just look at the words; you actually have to figure out the meaning of the words. Unfortunately there is probably no scientific field where every researcher agrees on the definition of every term.

However when atonia is used in the phrase "REM atonia" it has a more restricted meaning, namely that the nerve signals to skeletal muscles are blocked by hyperpolarization of motoneurons. To detect that this blockade is occurring researchers trigger the so-called H-reflex in the soleus muscle in the calf. In REM atonia this reflex disappears completely because the motoneurons are hyperpolarized. In NREM sleep it is lower than in wakefulness but still present, i.e., you get low muscle tone.

In the article you cited, the researchers measured the muscle tone under the chin, and they defined muscle tone below a certain threshold as atonia. This is not the same thing as REM atonia, although REM atonia certianly would imply low muscle tone.

----------


## Thor

> I don't think so. I appreciate the research and attention Thor is putting into this.  I certainly have learned a lot from reading his cited articles.  I think, like most debates, it comes down to fundamental differences in how we are all viewing the problem.



Thanks for saying so even though we disagree on several points.





> Not to put words into anyone's mouth, but It seems like we are all trying to figure out how far the term Sleep Paralysis should extend.  Does it only apply to REM-atonia?  Does it apply to NREM-atonia (if such a thing exists)?  Does it apply to paralysis due to low muscle tone (NREM-lowtonia LOL).  I think it applies to any situation where a person near sleep experiences paralysis, regardless of the biological reasons.  I think it describes the experience.



I think this is exactly where we disagree. In my view every person is the expert on their own experience, and they may describe that experience to other people who may compare it to their own.

However, when people start talking about things like "REM sleep", "sleep paralysis", and "REM atonia", they are referring to objective physiological states that have a precisely defined meaning in science, and that they cannot detect with certainty unless they actually sleep in a sleep lab. Thus, when they use these terms in describing their experiences, they create a huge potential for misunderstandings. This is evidenced by the regular influx of people on Dream Views who are wondering if they "were in sleep paralysis". If the term "sleep paralysis" had been clear and unambiguous, this wouldn't happen that often. That's why I think people should only use the term sleep paralysis in the sense of as a disorder.





> More fundamentally, I think we need to look to science to help understand our experiences.  Especially when it comes to something as subjective as consciousness.  These definitions are models to describe what is happening to our body.  We can't afford to lose track of reality and  get trapped in our own definitions as some set of imaginary rules.



I mostly agree. The big problem here is that the available science either describes neurophysiological processes or cognitive processes, and there isn't much science to connect these.

----------


## Shift

> However, when people start talking about things like "REM sleep", "sleep paralysis", and "REM atonia", they are referring to objective physiological states that have a precisely defined meaning in science, and that they cannot detect with certainty unless they actually sleep in a sleep lab. Thus, when they use these terms in describing their experiences, they create a huge potential for misunderstandings. This is evidenced by the regular influx of people on Dream Views who are wondering if they "were in sleep paralysis". If the term "sleep paralysis" had been clear and unambiguous, this wouldn't happen that often. That's why I think people should only use the term sleep paralysis in the sense of as a disorder.



EXACTLY!

----------


## moonshine

> That's why I think people should only use the term sleep paralysis in the sense of as a disorder.



Well good luck with that!  :smiley:

----------


## Shift

> Well good luck with that!



Yes, with people like you misinforming newbies as to what Sleep Paralysis is, we'll never be able to inform those who are being initiated into lucid dreaming and we'll never be able to make any progress.  :Sad:

----------


## moonshine

> Yes, with people like you misinforming newbies as to what Sleep Paralysis is, we'll never be able to inform those who are being initiated into lucid dreaming and we'll never be able to make any progress.



People like me!  ::D:  Given that my knowledge and understanding is based primarily on the dream view tutorials and Laberge's book, seems to me that you're attempting to patronise a pretty significant proportion of the forums membership.

I'd also point out that a lot of people have managed to make significant progress without Thors recent "guidance".

----------


## Mortalis

> People like me!  Given that my knowledge and understanding is based primarily on the dream view tutorials and Laberge's book, seems to me that you're attempting to patronise a pretty significant proportion of the forums membership.
> 
> I'd also point out that a lot of people have managed to make significant progress without Thors recent "guidance".



QFT..there used to be a point on these forums where every small semantic discussion wasn't given pages and pages of argument and "scientific" proofs, when in fact there was originally a general consensus of the term as established by tutorials, members' experiences, ect.  This consensus served for all intensive purposes, and, in my mind HELPED newbies enter into a forum where they were confronted not with a scientific lecture on the difference between almost full muscle tone loss and full muscle tone loss, and how what they've called sleep paralysis is actually low muscle tone, but instead with a simple term that they could easily relate to their experiences.

----------


## Shift

Patronize everyone? The only reason I feel superior in the slightest is because I've read all the awesome information that Thor has provided and I am willing to admit my mistakes. Personally, I feel that recognizing one has made a mistake and seeking to overcome it is an admirable thing to do, rather than spreading false information all over the damn place.

They are misusing a medical term. It's like calling alcoholism narcolepsy. I'm a dream guide. It's my responsibility on this site, and then my responsibility as a scientist and as an intelligent human being, to try to teach people when they are doing something completely wrong. 

Yes, using sleep paralysis to mean any and all hypnagogia was wrong. Maybe, if we all realize this and try to change our behavior and teach the newbies, we'll overcome it. Or, we could sit in endless debate about how semantics don't matter while simultaneously teaching all newbies that instead of just "Fun buzzing hypnagogia" they are going to be paralyzed (*cue scream*) and see hags and demons. In fact let's confuse them all by blowing this thing out of proportion, and giving them the notion that they should be able to trick their bodies into a physiological disorder, or to stay up for hours attempting to remain conscious while they fall asleep, when they don't really need to do that anyway. We can all run around claiming to to be in REM sleep or sleep paralysis or whatever without any actual evidence. Or, we can hold ourselves and the members of the site to a higher, legitimate, and accurate standard of not being morons.

Moonshine, I'm curious- have you had any scientific training?

----------


## Mortalis

You are right on at least one point shift, it is stupid to have this semantic discussion.  I'm finished with it, and, as a budding scientist (biology major), I will agree to disagree with you guys.  However, even though I'm leaving this discussion I'm not going to alter what I say.  I, and several others on these forums, believe that Sleep Paralysis can be rightly used to describe the NREM atonia (EXTREMELY low muscle tone), REM atonia, and the sleep disorder.  If you look closely, I've never made a post advocating getting to SP _in order_ to LD, though I know that some scientists believe that there is overlap between REM and Wakefulness which includes

"A. Cataplexy, hypnagogic hallucinations, sleep paralysis
B. REM sleep behavior disorder
C. Lucid dreaming (out of body experiences)
D. Delerium (hallucinations- drug induced, peduncular"

From Overlapping states of being Handbook of Behavioral State Control with reference to Mahowald, M.W and Schenck, C.H.  _Neurology_, 42, 44-52. 1992

as well as there being evidence (my previously cited material) to having very low muscle tone, if not all out atonia (though thor stated they didn't have the right reflex test there is not proof that the subjects were not atonic)

With that, I part ways for this thread, and others that use semantic discussion and science that is still being investigated to put down others' rightly justified opinions on sleep paralysis.

Thanks for the discussion,

Mortalis

----------


## Robot_Butler

> They are misusing a medical term. It's like calling alcoholism narcolepsy. I'm a dream guide. It's my responsibility on this site, and then my responsibility as a scientist and as an intelligent human being, to try to teach people when they are doing something completely wrong. 
> 
> Yes, using sleep paralysis to mean any and all hypnagogia was wrong. Maybe, if we all realize this and try to change our behavior and teach the newbies, we'll overcome it.



Lets not blow this out of proportion.  Nobody (except maybe for a few newbs) is using the term 'sleep paralysis' inappropriately.  Especially not to the point of it being considered misinformation.

When I see somebody post a thread like "OMFG!!! Evil Spirits paralyzed me and sucked my electric body energy last night!!!", I am not going to try and explain the differences between total atonia and extremely low muscle tone, or REM vs. non-REM dreams.  I am going to tell them to read about Sleep Paralysis, and direct them to a place where their questions can be easily answered. 

I also think that it is worthwhile to warn people ahead of time that they may experience crazy hallucinations, body distortions, and paralysis when they WILD.  Obviously, this is a common enough experience during WILDs that it would be unfair to just tell them to "Relax, and you will slip into a dream."  Obviously no two WILDs are alike, but some can be very intense and frightening.  Lets be sure to tell people that this is normal, safe, and common, and assure them that their body is not going to explode like Ted Sprague.

Let me stress again that you can learn to bring about sleep paralysis through WILD meditations.  I don't know how anyone is even arguing this.  You do not force the physiological response to occur at an impossible time.  You only maintain your awareness long enough to experience it, where normally you would not.  And, of course, this can be an extremely useful tool for learning to lucid dream at will.

----------


## moonshine

> Moonshine, I'm curious- have you had any scientific training?



Have you? Has thor? I admit his his cut and paste skills are strong.
But theres not much Scientific about his "proving a positive" claim, or his simple dismissal of significant anecdotal evidence. A big part of science is after all observation.  





> Yes, using sleep paralysis to mean any and all hypnagogia was wrong.



 ::shock::  Which absolutely no one has disagreed with.





> Or, we could sit in endless debate about how semantics don't matter while simultaneously teaching all newbies that instead of just "Fun buzzing hypnagogia" they are going to be paralyzed (*cue scream*) and see hags and demons.



And thats an accurate representation of this ongoing discusion is it?  ::roll:: 





> In fact let's confuse them all by blowing this thing out of proportion, and giving them the notion that they should be able to trick their bodies into a physiological disorder, or to stay up for hours attempting to remain conscious while they fall asleep, when they don't really need to do that anyway. We can all run around claiming to to be in REM sleep or sleep paralysis or whatever without any actual evidence. Or, we can hold ourselves and the members of the site to a higher, legitimate, and accurate standard of not being morons.



Are you therefore 100% behind Thors assertions that the following don't exist?





> [LIST][*]Myth 1: That it's possible to willfully induce REM atonia outside of REM sleep and that a large proportion of people who WILD regularly do this.[*]Myth 2: That it's normal to experience REM atonia in REM sleep.[*]Myth 3: That sensations like the lead blanket feeling, numbness, tingling, vibrations, etc. are symptoms of REM atonia occurring outside of REM sleep.



And by REM atonia, Thor means what everyone else has, does, and will always call Sleep Paralysis. As does Dr Stehen Laberge Ph.D. 

Personally I would not expect a "Dream Guide" to so casually dismiss such a substantial section of Lucid Dreaming knowledge. 

That said, both you and Thor are entitled to your opinions. 

Given the number of threads on the boards discussing sleep paralysis, the community can make its own minds up.

----------


## moonshine

> Let me stress again that you can learn to bring about sleep paralysis through WILD meditations.  I don't know how anyone is even arguing this.  You do not force the physiological response to occur at an impossible time.  You only maintain your awareness long enough to experience it, where normally you would not.  And, of course, this can be an extremely useful tool for learning to lucid dream at will.



Which truly is the crux of this debate. Thor does not at all agree with the above. And neither, apparently, does Shift. 

Yet there is significant common experience which suggests that WILD is indeed possible, as well as Scientific research completed by Laberge (in proper laboratories and everything) which supports the same. 

Chapter 4 of ETWOLD (pages 94 to 116) entitled "Falling Asleep Consciously" kinda gives the game away.

----------


## Shift

> Have you?



I have. Not as much as I want, though I plan on continuing. Three intensive years of scientific training and analysis in biology, psychology, and chemistry. Which is enough to at _least_ train me to think about such things scientifically. I can't speak for Thor, but he's done an excellent job of reviewing the literature and drawing logical conclusions and supporting those conclusions with significant evidence.





> Moonshine, I'm curious- have you had any scientific training?



????





> Are you therefore 100&#37; behind Thors assertions that the following don't exist?



Are you intentionally misinterpreting what I write? No wonder this conversation isn't getting anywhere. I never said that I agreed to that, and nor do I. Lucid dreamers blur the lines between sleep and wakefullness. I think it's absolutely possible that we can train ourselves to remain conscious enough to experience the onset of paralysis.






> And by REM atonia, Thor means what everyone else has, does, and will always call Sleep Paralysis. As does Dr Stehen Laberge Ph.D.



That's exactly right, and we ought to do something to fix that.





> Personally I would not expect a "Dream Guide" to so casually dismiss such a substantial section of Lucid Dreaming knowledge.



Knowledge implies understanding. There is a blatant absence of understanding going on. Dismissing? Hell no. I'm seeking to clarify this confusion and to teach people _what_ these things are and to use proper terminology and analysis. Not to muddle things up as so many have done.





> That said, both you and Thor are entitled to your opinions.



Of course we are entitled to our respective opinions. Kind of you to say so.





> Given the number of threads on the boards discussing sleep paralysis, the community can make its own minds up.



It certainly can. Thank god every time we each add a post, this shoots back up to the top and maybe more people will read it.

----------


## moonshine

> I never said that I agreed to that, and nor do I. Lucid dreamers blur the lines between sleep and wakefullness. I think it's absolutely possible that we can train ourselves to remain conscious enough to experience the onset of paralysis.



But that's exactly the case that THOR is making. That WILDing with SP (or whatever he wants to call it) is a complete myth. Thats what Robot Butler, Myself and a few others are strongly objecting to. You would seem to be agreeing with us. So why are we arguing?!  



BTW I'm not a Scientist, I'm an Engineer. Like I said, my knowledge and understanding is based primarily on the dream view tutorials and Laberge's book. And my own experiences.





> Of course we are entitled to our respective opinions. Kind of you to say so.



Not kind. Simply being polite. A little of the social lubrication which oils the wheels of heated debate.

----------


## Shift

> But that's exactly the case that THOR is making. That WILDing with SP (or whatever he wants to call it) is a complete myth. Thats what Robot Butler, Myself and a few others are strongly objecting to. You would seem to be agreeing with us. So why are we arguing?!



Excellent question, you're the one who keeps misinterpreting my posts and seemingly trying to form Shift-Thor and Moonshine-RB alliances  ::shock:: 







> BTW I'm not a Scientist, I'm an Engineer. Like I said, my knowledge and understanding is based primarily on the dream view tutorials and Laberge's book. And my own experiences.



Ah, k. That does explain quite a bit then. Personal experience means nil when you aren't measuring your muscles, your sleep patterns, and when you have a personal invested benefit as you do. LaBerge's book is "the bible" but it's written for the laymen and open to false interpretation by the laymen. This thread is an excellent lit review on SP and I think should definitely be read over the things relating to SP in EWOLD. And just so you know... DV has it's flaws. In fact it has quite a few, and I for one think strongly dislike the official SP tutorial. It ignores a lot of the science of REM atonia and sleep paralysis, misuses terms left and right, and makes a lot of broad statements as fact without any evidence. If that is what you are basing your knowledge off of, reread Thor's intro to this thread carefully and analytically. That's all I can suggest you do.

----------


## GestaltAlteration

Ah, lovely, these heated arguments are worse than in R/S.  :tongue2: 

Great job on the tutorial, Thor. It's absolutely wonderful.

----------


## Snowy Egypt

> Ah, lovely, these heated arguments are worse than in R/S.




Ditto.

There are things I could say about this thread, but I won't, because people are sensitive.

----------


## moonshine

> Excellent question, you're the one who keeps misinterpreting my posts and seemingly trying to form Shift-Thor and Moonshine-RB alliances



Well to be fair Shift that is how it seems to be coming across. You defend Thor then you directly contradict his core assertions. The same core assertions which RB and myself are disagreeing with.

Can you therefore please clarify the points you're looking to make.






> Ah, k. That does explain quite a bit then.



Ah well. Engineers are well know for their dizzy kooky ways and lack of logical analysis ::roll:: 






> Personal experience means nil when you aren't measuring your muscles, your sleep patterns, and when you have a personal invested benefit as you do. LaBerge's book is "the bible" but it's written for the laymen and open to false interpretation by the laymen. This thread is an excellent lit review on SP and I think should definitely be read over the things relating to SP in EWOLD. And just so you know... DV has it's flaws. In fact it has quite a few, and I for one think strongly dislike the official SP tutorial. It ignores a lot of the science of REM atonia and sleep paralysis, misuses terms left and right, and makes a lot of broad statements as fact without any evidence. If that is what you are basing your knowledge off of, reread Thor's intro to this thread carefully and analytically. That's all I can suggest you do.



Yet my personal experience, the experience of other contributors, and the experience listed in EWOLD all do seem to correlate to a useful whole. 

I doubt there are many who would like to take a psychology degree to be able to lucid dream. Nor do they need to. 

Thor may well have completed a good search of scientific literature on Sleep Paralysis. But in my view his conclusion that inducing SP to WILD is a myth is fundamentally flawed.

----------


## moonshine

Well all science is based on peer review, so with reference to THORS original thesis, here we go.... 






> [SIZE="5"]
> One interpretation of the term sleep paralysis is as a natural phenomenon that is more properly called REM atonia.



A quick google of Sleep Paralysis and REM atonia indicates that Sleep Paralysis is, very specifically, the term used to describe REM atonia outside of REM Sleep, i.e. when the individual is awake. Which would indicate that this is absolutely the correct term to use with reference to WILD techniques. 





> [SIZE="5"]
> In the scientific and medical communities sleep paralysis usually refers to a sleep disorder.



A sleep disorder involving REM atonia outside of REM Sleep i.e. whilst the individual is awake. This may be a bad or scary experience for some, but it is a welcome experience for lucid dreamers. 





> [SIZE="5"]
> Sleep paralysis affects a minority of the population, and those who are affected experience it infrequently



In the context above we're talking about involuntary sleep paralysis. In the lucid dreamer community it would be logical to expect the proportion and frequency to be higher, as lucid dreamers use techniques designed to deliberately induce sleep paralysis. 





> [SIZE="5"]
> There is not much justification for the use of the term "sleep paralysis" in the sense "hypnagogic hallucinations".



Which no one has ever disputed. 





> [SIZE="5"]
> Sense 4: Sleep Paralysis as an Umbrella Term
> This interpretation includes a hodgepodge of any or all of the preceding interpretations.



A very rare occurence and one which is readily corrected by members of the dream view community.





> [SIZE="5"]
> So wanting sleep paralysis as REM atonia is pointless.



Unless of course you wish to use it as a gateway to lucid dreaming. 





> [SIZE="5"]
> People who suffer from sleep paralysis generally do not want it because it's usually very frightening.



True. But, as we know, lucid dreamers feel differently. 






> [SIZE="5"]
> Those who don't have this disorder will likely not get it by wishing for it. You won't be able to "will" yourself into changing your sleep physiology so that you get REM atonia outside of REM sleep. At least I'm not aware of any kind of research that could confirm such an effect.



Patently False. Laberge's research did just that. 
A significant amount of anecdotal evidence based on common personal experiences on this very forum corroborates Laberge's research and conclusions. 





> [SIZE="5"]
> Many LDers seem to conflate hypnagogic hallucinations and REM atonia. Hypnagogic hallucinations belong exclusively to sleep stage 1 (or in rare cases wakefulness)[7]. And REM atonia belongs exclusively to the REM stage.[14] Since sleep stages 1 and REM are distinct, these two phenomena do not normally occur simultaneously, except in the case of sleep paralysis as a disorder.



Or for example in the case where sleep paralysis is deliberately induced by a WILD attempt.

----------


## Thor

> Have you? Has thor? I admit his his cut and paste skills are strong.



For what it's worth I have a PhD.





> But theres not much Scientific about his "proving a positive" claim, or his simple dismissal of significant anecdotal evidence.



The thing about "proving a positive claim" is so elementary it's probably included in almost any "Philosophy of Science 101" course. Actually, it's a common logic fallacy (Fallacy: Burden of Proof ).

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## moonshine

> For what it's worth I have a PhD.



Not a PhD in Lucid Dreaming though, right?  :smiley: 





> The thing about "proving a positive claim" is so elementary it's probably included in almost any "Philosophy of Science 101" course. Actually, it's a common logic fallacy (Fallacy: Burden of Proof ).



Maybe. Maybe not. A google search doesn't uncover much...as I guess you've already found. 


There is significant evidence, anecdotal and otherwise, that deliberately inducing SP to WILD works. You are therefore working working against the majority consensus of your DV peers. In this case I'd say the burden of proof was on you. Simply dismissing that evidence does not prove your case.
In that context, invoking "proving a positive" as a defence, remains a smokescreen.

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## blue_space87

Great post, although I haven't read it all, it appears to be very imformative and literate.  Also, there are various negatives that may occur throughout ones life that can increase the odds of sleeping paralysis, not that any of them are wishful enough; for any of them to be valuable enough to be induced in order to achieve sleeping paralysis and then a lucid dream, depression can influence it effectively.  Sleeping paralysis still occurs a lot to me, not most recently, but throughout this year, it has occurred a lot of times in contrast to previous years; sleeping paralysis had started back in February 2006 for myself.  My initial speculation over the experience was to be the fact that it was something of which was spiritual, perhaps a ghost hauting me or something as such.  However, my perception changed when I understood more of sleep psychology.  Also, I've noticed for one thing to occur whilst in a sleeping paralysis, or mostly upon, is the lack of memory - more recently, I would find it difficult to remember the sleep paralysis, as well as the lack of lucidity.  Although I'd know it wasn't real, I still wouldn't be able to eliminate any auditory, sensory or visual hallucinations.

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## blue_space87

> For what it's worth I have a PhD.



Regardless as to what PhD you may hold, there will inevitably be others of who are more knowledgeable or more sophisticated to yourself.  Even if someone may know more of a given subject, any individual can still hold a key commitment towards that area of advancement in humanity.

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## moonshine

http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/re...466.2001v1.pdf

An interesting paper. 

Clearly indicates that Muscle Atonia in NREM is the same as Muscle Atonia in REM.
In effect the physiological paralysis frequently refered to as REM atonia can occour outside of REM sleep.

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## IndigoGhost

The world is an amazing place to discover and talk with others about your experiences. Why read about something and get a PHD when the experience is already on your doorstep?

Please stop lecturing others and let them make up there own mind on things, If people stopped worrying about grades and test scores the world would be a better place.

Stop caring about what you think its right and start looking at whats most interesting.

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