# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity > Dream Signs and Recall >  >  Subconscious theory

## Rainbow Werewolf

I have noticed that the subconscious likes to do things to frustrate me, like give me dreams where I am at work and can't get anything done, or lose something expensive, or even make my nose and face itch when trying a WILD.

I have a theory that the subconscious likes to frustrate.  What if I went to bed with the intention that "I do NOT want to lucid dream tonight." and really mean it.  Would the subconscious revolt and try to force me to have one?

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## Bosco

I have used that method before and it worked...i called it RPILD reverse phycology****** induced lucid dream and it worked for me but only once..i thin k after the first time its harder to do because u expect it to work

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## memeticverb

yeah ive noticed this too.  and most people ive talked about dreams say their most memorable dreams are ones where their efforts are thwarted repeatedly.  my favorite example is a friend who told me that in his dream he had to pee really bad, and so we was outside and he didnt think he would make it anywhere in time so he went to pee behind a bush, but just then a car drove by and so he had to keep walking.   after the car passed he tried again, but then a buch of kids came out of nowhere, and then he tried again, but a ball bouncing along, and so on.  what he took from it was that the subconscious wanted to thwart him from doing something he would regret, (wetting the bed).  so maybe in dreams when our everyday efforts are frustrated the subconscious is actually trying to induce us to wake up and pay attention to our surroundings and ask more questions?

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by Rainbow Werewolf_
> *I have noticed that the subconscious likes to do things to frustrate me, like give me dreams where I am at work and can't get anything done, or lose something expensive, or even make my nose and face itch when trying a WILD.
> 
> I have a theory that the subconscious likes to frustrate.  What if I went to bed with the intention that "I do NOT want to lucid dream tonight." and really mean it.  Would the subconscious revolt and try to force me to have one?*



*[moved to dream sign & recall]*

I am not sure if the subconscious is by any means our enemy. Or that it works against us. Not on it's own accord anyway. It just has an entirely different obscure and abstract view that our waking conscious brain does usually not tap into. 
The more you learn about how the subconscious works and you dabble with lucid dreaming and the like, the more readily your two hemispheres and or conscious and subconscious can work in concert with one another.

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## memeticverb

[quote]

*[moved to dream sign & recall]*

I am not sure if the subconscious is by any means our enemy. Or that it works against us. Not on it's own accord anyway. It just has an entirely different obscure and abstract view that our waking conscious brain does usually not tap into. 
The more you learn about how the subconscious works and you dabble with lucid dreaming and the like, the more readily your two hemispheres and or conscious and subconscious can work in concert with one another.

what do you mean by abstract?  it seems like the subconscious and dreams are ruled by imagistic and affective states of cognition.  but in philosophy or psychology  we wouldnt usually  think of images, metaphors, emotions, etc as abstract.  i dunno though, maybe you are talking about the way they are organized?

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## Rainbow Werewolf

True, the view of the subconscious can't be too abstract or obscure, or else it would not be compatible with the conscious. Some how they have to talk to one another.

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by Rainbow Werewolf+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rainbow Werewolf)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				True, the view of the subconscious can't be too abstract or obscure, or else it would not be compatible with the conscious. Some how they have to talk to one another.[/b]
> 			
> 		
> ...



Abstract. Most definitely. And when you review your dreams or state and levels that are considered to be the subconscious (which is subjective to even exist) are derived from  very complex, hypothetical, non concrete, philosophical and  theoretical visions and thought patterns.

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## Distant Clone

> _Originally posted by Rainbow Werewolf_
> *I have noticed that the subconscious likes to do things to frustrate me, like give me dreams where I am at work and can't get anything done, or lose something expensive, or even make my nose and face itch when trying a WILD.
> 
> I have a theory that the subconscious likes to frustrate.  What if I went to bed with the intention that "I do NOT want to lucid dream tonight." and really mean it.  Would the subconscious revolt and try to force me to have one?*



My dream mind and I get along just fine, it is possible. Of course I have a lot of respect for it. Perhaps your subconscious mind is telling you you are headed in the wrong direction and it's pulling on you to get your attention. You are in a tug-of-war for control.

I view a dream as a story, something with a moral, something to take away from it. I do my best to recall dreams, usually at least one a night. I also analyze the dream, the amount depends on how unsettling it is. Also, my dream mind tends to incubate things for me, so I thank it when those things come to be. I can even ask for vivid dreams, control, or the opportunity to do the lucid task. 

If I do recognize I am dreaming, I immediately forget it since I know I struggle with dream control as I often go in search of women. One time, I made my dream mind quite angry when levitating several times instead of fighting through a dark thorny maze with creatures. Now, if I want to do levitate, I get permission first.

On another occasion, I saw a dark black cloud in the sky, that was a band, going diagonally SE from the NW. I asked exactly what it was supposed to mean, and the cloud quickly spread apart into the shape of several ghosts. It made the meaning much clearer. Sometimes, one will have multiple dreams in the same night in order to give two contexts to also help understand.

All in all, I really like the analogy of each dream as a story, and your dream mind as a story teller. I am sure your storyteller would be more than happy if you request a certain type of story, or if you get involved and ask questions to make the story clearer. Working on remembering the stories in their entirety, as well as actually learning from them go over well. 

How does lucidity fit into this? Not well. When you realize you are dreaming and want to usurp control over the dream, it's like interrupting the story teller by saying "You are full of shit, I don't appreciate your story, I am going to tell my own story". It is brute force, and I am sure some here are worse about it than others.

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## memeticverb

[quote]

Abstract. Most definitely. And when you review your dreams or state and levels that are considered to be the subconscious (which is subjective to even exist) are derived from  very complex, hypothetical, non concrete, philosophical and  theoretical visions and thought patterns. 


ah i see.  your right, i just have too many ways of slicing the abstract/concrete distinction bouncing around in my head..  so when i hear someone use it  i want to hear how they define it.  

so the definition of abstract you are  using means "hypothetical" as being a construal of possible states of affairs, and a denial of concrete descriptions (which im guessing are having to do with sensory input?)  so the question is - how are these concrete sensory objects and processes related to the abstract ones?

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by memeticverb_
> *
> 
> ah i see.  your right, i just have too many ways of slicing the abstract/concrete distinction bouncing around in my head..  so when i hear someone use it  i want to hear how they define it.  
> 
> so the definition of abstract you are  using means "hypothetical" as being a construal of possible states of affairs, and a denial of concrete descriptions (which im guessing are having to do with sensory input?)  so the question is - how are these concrete sensory objects and processes related to the abstract ones?*



That is a good question. And any answer I have would just be based mostly on opinion.
But IMO..   ::lol::   I think that the dream is not concrete sensory input. If we are talking about dream content. The abstract I speak of usually puts a unique spin on the what we call "normal sensory input" Which is derived from our conscious and cognizant waking thought process.

But we may be putting the entire _sensory input_ topic into two different ideas.
Let's start over   :tongue2:

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## memeticverb

good call.  a whole new can of worms is opened when we start talking about sensory "input," since in dreams the only input is from internal structures and processes.  and your right, these internal sources are giving direction to the dream world as recreated from our waking experience.  this is one of the biggest puzzles about dreams to me, how does our mind/brain recreate so perfectly the sensory world with no input from the sensory world?  Evidently we are engaging in much more than the simple processing of information in normal sensory perception.  And we know from neurophysioligical studies that the brain encodes spatial proportions, um, proportionally.  So its like we have mini maps of the sensory field read y to be applied or filled with new information.

Maybe in addition to abstract vs. concrete forms of subconscious/unconscious activity, we could draw out a distinction based on structure vs. process.  When you say that abstract thought puts a spin on our sensory experience, we could take this to mean that the hypothetical forms of thought are imbuing the concrete dream world with their own language of meaning.  Our concrete dream world gets infused with the metaphors and puns that have emotionally imbedded significance to us.  

what do you think?

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by memeticverb_
> *good call.  a whole new can of worms is opened when we start talking about sensory "input," since in dreams the only input is from internal structures and processes.  and your right, these internal sources are giving direction to the dream world as recreated from our waking experience.  this is one of the biggest puzzles about dreams to me, how does our mind/brain recreate so perfectly the sensory world with no input from the sensory world?  Evidently we are engaging in much more than the simple processing of information in normal sensory perception.  And we know from neurophysioligical studies that the brain encodes spatial proportions, um, proportionally.  So its like we have mini maps of the sensory field read y to be applied or filled with new information.*



Cognition and our consciousness interacting  with the _real_ and what is not _real_ relies only of what is perceived. I know that during a dream your brain believes that what is occurring is actually occurring. This gives rise to question the relevance of concrete vs. non concrete thought patterns and its relevance to the brain itself. To our thinking mind it is of coarse a puzzle. But to the mind, it is as if it is just one linear and constant stream of input.





> _Originally posted by memeticverb_
> *Maybe in addition to abstract vs. concrete forms of subconscious/unconscious activity, we could draw out a distinction based on structure vs. process.  When you say that abstract thought puts a spin on our sensory experience, we could take this to mean that the hypothetical forms of thought are imbuing the concrete dream world with their own language of meaning.  Our concrete dream world gets infused with the metaphors and puns that have emotionally imbedded significance to us.  
> 
> what do you think?*



By hypothetical forms of thought do you mean thought form our dreams? I maybe not following you correctly.
If so these thoughts are that of the subconscious and each person having his /hers own unique interactions with the process. Much like the conditioned process of our concrete thoughts?
Imbedded significance. Could you elaborate on that?   :smiley:

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## memeticverb

[quote]
By hypothetical forms of thought do you mean thought form our dreams? I maybe not following you correctly.
If so these thoughts are that of the subconscious and each person having his /hers own unique interactions with the process. Much like the conditioned process of our concrete thoughts?
Imbedded significance. Could you elaborate on that? 

Ok, right on.  The relevance of concrete vs non-concrete is in question, probably because there is some sort of inverse relation between them.  I dont believe most people operate by directing themselves toward the world and then upon reflection representing it to themselves.  It seems rather that people are operating within extensive cognitive webs of the cultural symbols that have been broadcast to them as true representations, not just of the world, but of themselves as the world.  They then project these received paradigms onto what they perceive.  This is true of both waking and dream forms of consciousness. 

So, in this view, in our normal perceptions we attach affective states (mostly what we are conditioned by cultural propaganda if you will) with the purpose of making sense (literally) of what we are experiencing.  But the significance is imbedded and encoded much deeper than what ever reaches waking conscious thought  so this is all unconscious so far: both the processing of sensory information and the archetypal cultural symbols and emotioanl states they invoke.  This is where dream thought comes in, to rearrange this waking thought-dynamic so that its real effects are felt as they operate on a deeper level.  

do you think this is accurate?  does this kind of view help explain why, as Lacan and others have noted, our dreams exploit the puns and metaphors of language, as well as deeply imbedded symbols of power (religion, myth, etc)?

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by memeticverb_
> *
> 
> Ok, right on. *The relevance of concrete vs non-concrete is in question, probably because there is some sort of inverse relation between them. *I dont believe most people operate by directing themselves toward the world and then upon reflection representing it to themselves. *It seems rather that people are operating within extensive cognitive webs of the cultural symbols that have been broadcast to them as true representations, not just of the world, but of themselves as the world. *They then project these received paradigms onto what they perceive. *This is true of both waking and dream forms of consciousness. *
> 
> So, in this view, in our normal perceptions we attach affective states (mostly what we are conditioned by cultural propaganda if you will) with the purpose of making sense (literally) of what we are experiencing. *But the significance is imbedded and encoded much deeper than what ever reaches waking conscious thought  so this is all unconscious so far: both the processing of sensory information and the archetypal cultural symbols and emotioanl states they invoke. *This is where dream thought comes in, to rearrange this waking thought-dynamic so that its real effects are felt as they operate on a deeper level. *
> 
> do you think this is accurate? *does this kind of view help explain why, as Lacan and others have noted, our dreams exploit the puns and metaphors of language, as well as deeply imbedded symbols of power (religion, myth, etc)?*



Yes. That does make a lot of sense. A very good in depth explanation.

What would we be with out  these conditioned responses? 
It is inevitable that these cultural aspects are integrated into our phycie via our upbringing  regardless of what culture. But when faced with these embodied and encoded perceptions, can we change the way we do perceive, as to be liberated from  conditioned thought patterns?
Do you feel that you can gain a more concrete foothold through the access of the subconscious (or whatever title you care to give) view. By that  what I mean is, through a more intrinsic view from our dreams, we can extract and give light to the less theoretical perspective of our lives. Which in part does take on the role of  an operation  directed by ones self  toward the world and then upon reflection, representing it to themselves. 
Crazy. You need a precognitive thought process to reflect  in this case.

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## Asclepius

> _Originally posted by Distant Clone_
> *My dream mind and I get along just fine, it is possible. Of course I have a lot of respect for it. *
> 
>  Also, my dream mind tends to incubate things for me, so I thank it when those things come to be.
> 
> How does lucidity fit into this? Not well. When you realize you are dreaming and want to usurp control over the dream, it's like interrupting the story teller by saying "You are full of shit, I don't appreciate your story, I am going to tell my own story". It is brute force, and I am sure some here are worse about it than others.*



I just wanted to thank you Distant Clone for this perspective.  I was looking back at my LDs.  At one time I had a DS that almost always made me lucid, but I haven't had in over month.  I thanked my subconscious for that DS and that night I had that DS and became lucid.  ::D:  
I even had the DS again the next night, but was too tired to notice it.  But I was impressed enough that I've decided to take the month off from forcing control and just go with exploring my dreams as presented by my SC.  I do think a positive attitude towards the dream mind is helpful.

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## memeticverb

[quote]

Yes. That does make a lot of sense. A very good in depth explanation.

What would we be with out  these conditioned responses? 
It is inevitable that these cultural aspects are integrated into our phycie via our upbringing  regardless of what culture. But when faced with these embodied and encoded perceptions, can we change the way we do perceive, as to be liberated from  conditioned thought patterns?
Do you feel that you can gain a more concrete foothold through the access of the subconscious (or whatever title you care to give) view. By that  what I mean is, through a more intrinsic view from our dreams, we can extract and give light to the less theoretical perspective of our lives. Which in part does take on the role of  an operation  directed by ones self  toward the world and then upon reflection, representing it to themselves. 
Crazy. You need a precognitive thought process to reflect  in this case.

yeah it seems we can change the way we perceive, and dreams seem to be a major factor in doing this deconstructive work for us.   for most people dreams simply let them experience a fuller picture of reality.  and indeed, precognitive, non-conceptual processes are the difficult things to be sorted out here.  so much significance takes place in them, and explains why people are able to be fooled so often about the nature of reality.  but, regardless of ones states of conscious reflection, dreams act unconsciously to alter our representations 

 for example, all my life ive had this reoccurring dream where I am in a car that is fixed on a conveyer belt.  Its on a slope heading upwards into the maw of a giant factory contraption the size of a city.  There are other people in the car but I cant get through to them or get them to stop the car.  The more I think about this dream the more I realize thats its probably about the imprint left by my childhood memories of seeing the city skyline of a big city on family vacations.  my subconscious recognized this experience as something sinister: uncontrollable industrialization and the assembly line-fashion humans are treated in our society.

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## Distant Clone

> _Originally posted by In a dream sharing thread+ Nikolaa--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(In a dream sharing thread &#064;  Nikolaa)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				it CAN take place in some ones head and in astral realm,what do u mean when u master dreams,what do u mean,do u have a plan about dream shareing?
> i need a few LDs and i'm gonna do this sharing dreams[/b]
> 			
> ...



Speaking of helpful, I think I just put another piece of the puzzle together.

From Loveline, I know that when one undergoes a (bad) sexual experience early in life, the individual will separate into a good self and a bad self. The bad self is the sexual side of someone. The healthy thing to do is to cure the bad self, make it good again and with the two good halves, integrate or unite them as a whole.

Upon speculating why one would separate, I came to a fairly solid conclusion that the bad self is diseased, or poisoned in a sense. The good self abandons the bad self in order to protect itself. If the individual wants to have sex, they need to feel like a bad person to do that. Only until one can recognize and overcome this bad self, can the unify and function wholly as one person.

Now, everyone consider their subconscious mind as their good half, and their conscious mind as the bad self. Assume we are all diseased, quite possibly with negative intentions. What happens when we dream and become lucid? Consciousness comes into the subconscious realm. Many people go to have sex, be violent, etc. We do terrible things, which threaten the happy existence of the subconscious mind. Then, magically, we fight to hang on for control, lucidity, and experience false awakenings in the dream. Such outbursts may even lead to lack of dream recall. 

I believe all these troubles with lucidity to be defense mechanisms of the subconscious mind, to keep itself from getting poisoned like the conscious mind. By occasionally introducing you back to the good self, i.e. dreaming, the goal is to have the good self to teach the bad self to be good, and unify back as one. I postulate at this point, one will have "mastered dreaming" but more in terms of symptoms, near 100% control and freedom with vivid if not lucid quality dreams. Even if you are not conscious, your subconscious will function in exactly the same manner, and you will not even need lucidity to do what one wants.

That really backs up my point of dreams being lessons to learn, and when we do learn them, we are rewarded. We are coming closer to integrating. That is why it is important to pay attention to dreams with the journal, interpret the dream and look for common themes, see where your faults are in the dream, then make better choices while dreaming. It is a process of refinement. 

Case in point, scary turned violent turned almost peaceful dreams.

*Scary*
Initially I had many dreams in which I would find myself running away from things, because I was scared of them. Upon waking, I would realize how silly this is. 

*Violent*
After a conscious effort not to run from scary situations, I had almost the exact opposite problem. Instead of running away, I would wail away and significantly attack the DC threatening me. Upon waking, I noticed how violent I was becoming, all "my" solutions relied on me attacking others.

*In waking life*
Again I worked on this, neither running away nor attacking. This time it was more focused on waking life. I have a twin brother, and when we were about eight years old, he decided he was always going to get the last hit in. After less and less return volleys, I am to the point now where he freely takes four or more hit combos all while I stand still and do not defend myself. I stay entirely calm.

*Not Quite Peaceful*
In dreams now, when something attacks me, I usually remain calm and go into an observation mode. My subconscious mind will take over control of my dream body. I gracefully dance just out of the way of several punches, and usually easily grab and throw my opponent several times. At this point I realize "I don't mean to be hurting them" and retake control over the dream ending the fight.

I still think I have more progress to make, but I think I am on my way. Ideally, I will not fight at all, be calm and enable the other dream character to calm, and maybe help the dream character however I may.

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## Abstract Fire

Mine is completely the opposite. I find that I ALWAYS get my own way in my dreams, because I expect it to happen.

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## Distant Clone

> _Originally posted by Abstract Fire_
> *Mine is completely the opposite. I find that I ALWAYS get my own way in my dreams, because I expect it to happen.*



Maybe I was not clear. I USUALLY get my own way, but that's because I rarely do "negative things". What I am saying, is if you force your way into doing bad things, then yeah you will have trouble. My subconscious and I have a good relationship, and generally it permits me to do what I want. You may actually be about the same instead of completely opposite...

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by Distant Clone_
> *Maybe I was not clear. I USUALLY get my own way, but that's because I rarely do "negative things". What I am saying, is if you force your way into doing bad things, then yeah you will have trouble. My subconscious and I have a good relationship, and generally it permits me to do what I want. You may actually be about the same instead of completely opposite...*



I do so agree with your train of thought on this DC. But I do think that it is each individuals conscience that rules the roost in our dreams as far as what we can and can not do.
For example. I myself have struggled as you have to try and force things to happen. Most often sexual or violent. My subconscious puts up one road block after another. Which is a good thing from my perspective.
Now on the opposite end many members LDs as well as my best friend require NO hurdles to overcome in order to perform any self loathing task they wish. With seemingly no repercussions. It is what you DEEP down (or in) truly feel about a moral stance on a particular issue.





> for example, all my life ive had this reoccurring dream where I am in a car that is fixed on a conveyer belt. Its on a slope heading upwards into the maw of a giant factory contraption the size of a city. There are other people in the car but I cant get through to them or get them to stop the car. The more I think about this dream the more I realize thats its probably about the imprint left by my childhood memories of seeing the city skyline of a big city on family vacations. my subconscious recognized this experience as something sinister: uncontrollable industrialization and the assembly line-fashion humans are treated in our society.[/b]



> That happens to be my opinion of the city too!   ::wink::  
It seems widely accepted that your brain is stamped with these first impressions very heavily. I am not so sure they believe that it is our dream content and everything there in that is imprinted. I think maybe it should be more recognized.
If it were, maybe  more people would use lucid dreaming as a positive tool rather than just a conscious experience.
I guess since many people go through their waking life asleep then it should be no surprise that they do the same when they are >?<  :tongue2:

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## Rainbow Werewolf

I feel lost  ::|: . Everyone on here understands way more than I do about dreams and abstract/concrete stuff. I am confused at the distinction between the subconscious and the conscious.

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by Rainbow Werewolf_
> *I feel lost . Everyone on here understands way more than I do about dreams and abstract/concrete stuff. I am confused at the distinction between the subconscious and the conscious.*



Don't feel too lost Rainbow Werewolf!
These are all theories anyway. 
To my knowledge, we only guess at what consciousness really is... let alone where it actually resides. Then the subconscious possibly being more illusive. Possibly not even being a separate entity from the conscious. 
There seems to be such a difference in patterns of consciousness that something had to be named to reference it. Which we call the subconscious. Just a division of the absolute consciousness.
I think we are all lost and searching for answers ourselves. Just speculating on possibilities.   :smiley:  
And any of your questions may bring about questions that have not arisen yet.   ::idea::

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## Flubly

Yeah it  can be fun and somewhat beneficial to study the subconcious.  But for everyone that does it you always have to do a reality check and realize that you will probably never figure out the whole thing.  I mean how is it possible to completely figure out 100% of something that you use only 10% of.

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by Flubly_
> *Yeah it  can be fun and somewhat beneficial to study the subconcious.  But for everyone that does it you always have to do a reality check and realize that you will probably never figure out the whole thing.  I mean how is it possible to completely figure out 100% of something that you use only 10% of.*




The 10% *mythe*!   ::shakehead2::  
I use 3%  :wink:

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## memeticverb

> _Originally posted by Rainbow Werewolf_
> *I feel lost . Everyone on here understands way more than I do about dreams and abstract/concrete stuff. I am confused at the distinction between the subconscious and the conscious.*



yeah, like howetzer said, there doesnt seem to be a clear cut division between conscious and subconscous mental content.   consciousness is usually taken to mean what is present to reflective awareness " I am eating a bagel" or "This flower smells wonderful", while the subconscious is generally what remians hidden but instrumental to cognition, like a repressed memory or something that explains why you behave a certain way without knowing why.  

concrete is often used in reference to consciousness to mean that part of the conscious or subconsious mind that interacts with the senses, and abstract usually to refer to the categories and sytheses applied to these concrete mental objects.  these are helpful distinctions when explaining mental processes, but by no means absolute   ::wink::

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## Asclepius

> _Originally posted by memeticverb_
> *
> yeah, like howetzer said, there doesnt seem to be a clear cut division between conscious and subconscous mental content. * consciousness is usually taken to mean what is present to reflective awareness " I am eating a bagel" or "This flower smells wonderful", while the subconscious is generally what remians hidden but instrumental to cognition, like a repressed memory or something that explains why you behave a certain way without knowing why.*



I'd agree with Howetzer and Memeticverb that there is fluidity between conscious and subconscious.  In some views the subconscious is the receptacle of what has once been conscious.  But there are also studies on perception and information processing that shows much of what we perceive is filtered subconsciously and does not reach conscious.  There can also be confusion about what we are conscious of.    Years ago I played the shareware version of Wolfenstein 3D for hours and hours.  Subconsciously I memorized the maps of each level and could navigate through in 30 seconds or less.  But consciously I could not draw the maps and say when to turn left or right.  :smiley:  





> _Originally posted by Distant Clone_
> *
> Now, everyone consider their subconscious mind as their good half, and their conscious mind as the bad self. Assume we are all diseased, quite possibly with negative intentions. What happens when we dream and become lucid? Consciousness comes into the subconscious realm. Many people go to have sex, be violent, etc. We do terrible things, which threaten the happy existence of the subconscious mind. Then, magically, we fight to hang on for control, lucidity, and experience false awakenings in the dream. Such outbursts may even lead to lack of dream recall.
> 
> I believe all these troubles with lucidity to be defense mechanisms of the subconscious mind, to keep itself from getting poisoned like the conscious mind. By occasionally introducing you back to the good self, i.e. dreaming, the goal is to have the good self to teach the bad self to be good, and unify back as one. I postulate at this point, one will have "mastered dreaming" but more in terms of symptoms, near 100% control and freedom with vivid if not lucid quality dreams. Even if you are not conscious, your subconscious will function in exactly the same manner, and you will not even need lucidity to do what one wants.
> 
> That really backs up my point of dreams being lessons to learn, and when we do learn them, we are rewarded. We are coming closer to integrating. That is why it is important to pay attention to dreams with the journal, interpret the dream and look for common themes, see where your faults are in the dream, then make better choices while dreaming. It is a process of refinement.*



I do believe that some dreams reflect our mental lives, and that interpretation and working with the dreams can lead to better mental health, happiness, and new modes of behaviour.

However some elements in my subconscious are not good.  Some are not good or bad, they are more instinctual.

Other dreams seem to be about fun.  Some dreams seem directly to relate to physical states (e.g. hunger).  So I think we need to be open to different types of dreams and different expressions of the subconscious or dreaming mind.

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## Wolffe

I think it's getting a bit over-complicated.. I reckon it's mostly just a case of dont-think-of-a-pink-elephant syndrome! In my dreams at any case.

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## memeticverb

> I'd agree with Howetzer and Memeticverb that there is fluidity between conscious and subconscious. In some views the subconscious is the receptacle of what has once been conscious. But there are also studies on perception and information processing that shows much of what we perceive is filtered subconsciously and does not reach conscious. There can also be confusion about what we are conscious of. Years ago I played the shareware version of Wolfenstein 3D for hours and hours. Subconsciously I memorized the maps of each level and could navigate through in 30 seconds or less. But consciously I could not draw the maps and say when to turn left or right..



hmm, it seems like  there are two threads that could be joinded together  maybe?.   :smiley:  

A Phenomenoloy of Skill Acquisition as the basis for a Merleau-Pontian Non-representationalist Cognitive Science 

anyway, if anyone's interested this article  is trying to explain how we can learn intricate things without explicitly knowing _how_ we've done so, or even knowing _that_ we've done so away from the context of where the learning took place.

yeah, it seems like the subconscious sometimes filters, organizes, and in some cases creates expereince - perceptual or otherwise.  
[/quote][/u][/i]

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## Asclepius

> _Originally posted by memeticverb_
> *
> A Phenomenoloy of Skill Acquisition as the basis for a Merleau-Pontian Non-representationalist Cognitive Science
> anyway, if anyone's interested this article is trying to explain how we can learn intricate things without explicitly knowing how we've done so, or even knowing that we've done so away from the context of where the learning took place. 
> *



The title of that article is quite mind boggling  ::o:  
However it had some interesting ideas on nature of learning and progression of skill.
I now classify myself as only an advanced beginner in lucid dreaming  :Sad:  

I'm reading a novel called Lucid Dreaming by Gerge Parrish, a former electrical engineer with a strong interests in the science of dreaming.  His theory on the purpose of dreaming relates to the idea of learning and information processing.





> The purpose of dreaming is the creation and  maintenance of each dreamer's own personal virtual reality, each dreamer's own internal model of the self, the external world, and the relationship between self and world.  Dreaming is our method of assimiilating the new by either discarding it or integrating it into our world model.  During dreaming we eliminate errors from and make modification to our internal private virtual reality, our world model.[/b]



I think there are some good points to this theory.  But it lacks a appreciation for the active subconsious, is closed to transpersonal events, and does not accord much value to lucidity.

Also last night I had a superb lucid dream that was initiated by a DC making me (my dream ego) lucid.  So I encourage taking a positive view towards the subconscious.

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## Howie

> The purpose of dreaming is the creation and maintenance of each dreamer's own personal virtual reality, each dreamer's own internal model of the self, the external world, and the relationship between self and world. Dreaming is our method of assimiilating the new by either discarding it or integrating it into our world model. During dreaming we eliminate errors from and make modification to our internal private virtual reality, our world model.[/b]







> I think there are some good points to this theory. But it lacks a appreciation for the active subconsious, is closed to transpersonal events, and does not accord much value to lucidity.
> 
> Also last night I had a superb lucid dream that was initiated by a DC making me (my dream ego) lucid. So I encourage taking a positive view towards the subconscious. [/b]



I would think it would account very much so to lucidity. For we  play a first hand role in manipulating (good or bad) dream content. Dream content that would have other wise gone on without further adieu. 
 From what I get out of that theory is that you can create errors just as easily as you could correct them. Based on a world that we are not all that affluent with it would seem likely we make many mistakes when taking charge of our dreams.

As you pointed out..A positive role was taken in your case. Is dream killing, promiscuity and other lucid dreaming forays a positive stance to ourselves?

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## memeticverb

[quote]



> The purpose of dreaming is the creation and maintenance of each dreamer's own personal virtual reality, each dreamer's own internal model of the self, the external world, and the relationship between self and world. Dreaming is our method of assimiilating the new by either discarding it or integrating it into our world model. During dreaming we eliminate errors from and make modification to our internal private virtual reality, our world model.







> I think there are some good points to this theory. But it lacks a appreciation for the active subconsious, is closed to transpersonal events, and does not accord much value to lucidity.
> 
> Also last night I had a superb lucid dream that was initiated by a DC making me (my dream ego) lucid. So I encourage taking a positive view towards the subconscious.



I would think it would account very much so to lucidity. For we  play a first hand role in manipulating (good or bad) dream content. Dream content that would have other wise gone on without further adieu. 
 From what I get out of that theory is that you can create errors just as easily as you could correct them. Based on a world that we are not all that affluent with it would seem likely we make many mistakes when taking charge of our dreams.

As you pointed out..A positive role was taken in your case. Is dream killing, promiscuity and other lucid dreaming forays a positive stance to ourselves? 

ok this idea that there is a distinction between the representation of the self, the world, and the relation between them is good, but it doesnt seem like a distinction that is present to the brain or mind.  this the blurring of this distinction and the recognition of exerything as a part of teh self seems like it might be a good way to explain how we get things wrong and make mistakes in waking life.  Howetzer, what do you mean by making mistakes in a dream?

Glad to hear you enjoyed the article Rainbow.   :smiley:  I have this strange feeling we are all begginers in lucidity   ::wink::

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## Howie

> _Originally posted by memeticverb_
> *
> 
> ok this idea that there is a distinction between the representation of the self, the world, and the relation between them is good, but it doesnt seem like a distinction that is present to the brain or mind.  this the blurring of this distinction and the recognition of exerything as a part of teh self seems like it might be a good way to explain how we get things wrong and make mistakes in waking life.  Howetzer, what do you mean by making mistakes in a dream?
> 
> Glad to hear you enjoyed the article Rainbow.   I have this strange feeling we are all begginers in lucidity *



Well we have pondered over the significance of our dream content and the role it plays in our daily lives. How or mind is preconditioned or stamped with certain perceptions.
I was proposing that given the ability to control dream content it would imply that we could screw things up just as we do in our waking life. Since in both cases you are cognizant and aware of choices.
Without lucidity, your brain would have an unaltered dream scenario. Not necisarilly predetermined though.

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## Rainbow Werewolf

So that's what this thread is about. Can't figure out when it was officially hijacked   :smiley:  

Anyway, yes that does make sense about the relevance of decisions and dream content. Like the moral issues. Am I immoral because I do not make a decision to stop something I know is wrong, but in a dream state don't quite have it figured out? I've done some bad things in dreams that I don't really think about until I wake up and then think "what a waste."

In addition, there is the accuracy issue with regard to dream content that was discussed many times. I would like to learn Japanese, but am not sure if I can trust what DCs may say to me as I am just starting to learn it.

[quote]
Well we have pondered over the significance of our dream content and the role it plays in our daily lives.

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## Wolffe

I've found myself saying the wrong japanese in dreams, so I wouldnt worry about what they say xD

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