# Off-Topic Discussion > The Lounge > Ask/Tell Me About >  >  Ask me about vegetarianism

## undeadjellybean

:smiley:

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## Caradon

How much protein does a person generally need each day. 

I've been trying to stay on a mostly vegetarian diet lately and want to make sure I get the required amount. I must be doing ok so far but it would be nice to know how much is needed.

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## Xox

Do you take any supplements?

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## mindwanderer

Why are you a vegetarian?

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## undeadjellybean

good questions  :smiley: 
I'm sorry, I've got to run, but I'll answer when I come back.

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## Gabriel S

An average persons needs about 50-60g of protein per day. Since you don´t eat meat t´s alot harder to obtain protein, but if you eat food such as soybeans, eggs, milk, nuts, beans it´s actually not that difficult. How ever,  If you´r trying to build muscle, a protein supplement is very helpfull since you´ll need alot more protein.

Remember to eat with good variety. Most vegetable food needs to bee combined with something else in order for your body to be able to use the protein. For example peas and beans should be combined with some type of grain.

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## Caradon

> An average persons needs about 50-60g of protein per day. Since you don´t eat meat t´s alot harder to obtain protein, but if you eat food such as soybeans, eggs, milk, nuts, beans it´s actually not that difficult. How ever,  If you´r trying to build muscle, a protein supplement is very helpfull since you´ll need alot more protein.
> 
> Remember to eat with good variety. Most vegetable food needs to bee combined with something else in order for your body to be able to use the protein. For example peas and beans should be combined with some type of grain.



Ok thanks, that helps. That sounds like a lot though, makes me wonder if I've been getting enough. I do eat the things you say, along with peanut butter sandwiches. I slack on the  variety though, I tend to eat the same things a lot, out of convenience.  I'll try to start eating more whole grain bread. Just got some today, actually.

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## undeadjellybean

> How much protein does a person generally need each day. 
> 
> I've been trying to stay on a mostly vegetarian diet lately and want to make sure I get the required amount. I must be doing ok so far but it would be nice to know how much is needed.






```
According to Western nutritional information, we should consume 1/3 of our body weight or .36 grams of protein per lb of body weight. That doesnt hold up on close examination. Theoretically, a 62 250 lb man would need 80 grams of protein a day  unless hes overweight and sedentary. An active rapidly growing seven year old could need more protein than a full size sedentary adult. And contrary to what weve been told, athletes dont need a lot more protein than regular people. They do need more complex carbohydrates for energy to support all that physical activity.
```


There are lots of myths regarding vegetarianism, especially with the protein thing. I get my protein from leafy greens, which I consume in green smoothies. Green smoothies are drinks made of fruit and leafy greens: they taste good and are packed with nutrients. (I sound like a TV ad)
I consume dairy and eggs only occasionally. And I went to a trip to the doctor and had a blood test: the doctor was impressed of my results.  ::banana:: 

So, drink a green smoothie daily and you'll be really healthy and radiant  :smiley:

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## undeadjellybean

> Do you take any supplements?



Only probiotics.

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## undeadjellybean

> Why are you a vegetarian?



First I made that choice because I was made aware of the slaughter and torture of animals. I couldn't take that, so I decided to be a vegetarian. I could never be happier with any other decision.
Then I chose to go vegan for my health.

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## dajo

> First I made that choice because I was made aware of the slaughter and torture of animals. I couldn't take that, so I decided to be a vegetarian. I could never be happier with any other decision.
> Then I chose to go vegan for my health.



 ::banana:: 

congrats. I did too and couldn't have been happier with it. 

How long have you been vegetarian/vegan? 


To just very lightly outline my reasons: 

1. The horrors of animal slaughter that have been increasingly getting 
worse after the meat production has become five times as high over the 
last 50 years and since it is more important to produce meat cheaply. 
2. The ecological implications - most of what has been cleared of the 
rainforest was either directly or indirectly caused by meat production. 
3. Wasting of ressources, food and water, the amount of valuable nutritions 
are being fed by the thousands to millions of hungry cows. What is wasted 
here could feed twice the population we have now, instead of letting 
1 billion starve. The amount of water that is wasted in the process is 
mindblowing as well. _Per 1 Kilogram (2.2lbs)_ there are 16 kg of crop needed 
and 10.000 liters (2600gallons) of water. 
4. Health. It is not neccessary to eat meat, or drink milk. There is no 
good reason for all this consumption, especially not in the amount that 
it is being done (fast food, etc) - adding to this, meat consumption had 
been linked with various form of cardiac diseases and cancers.
5. The concept of meat doesn't really fit in my general philosophy of life. 

After I had been reading a lot about it, it just made too much sense to me.

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## Caradon

> So, drink a green smoothie daily and you'll be really healthy and radiant



Do you have a recipe for that?

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## mindwanderer

> The horrors of animal slaughter that have been increasingly getting 
> worse after the meat production has become five times as high over the 
> last 50 years and since it is more important to produce meat cheaply.



Think of all the terribly painful long drawn-out deaths that millions of animals go through everyday... thanks to the food chain. Think of wolves ripping the living s**t out of a live moose. 





> There is no good reason for all this consumption, especially not in the amount that it is being done (fast food, etc)



I agree the amount some people eat today is way off... but it's a myth that there is no need. Some people are thick skulled enough to say we aren't even meant to eat meat. Evolution isn't wrong, pain and death is inevitable... part of life even. 





> adding to this, meat consumption had been linked with various form of cardiac diseases and cancers.



We won't cure hunger by extending lives. We aren't meant to live long, but thanks to medicine we're over-populating the earth an catalyzing our own complete destruction. Figure out how much longer you'll live not eating meat, and then consider the amount of fuel used (both fossil and food) as well as what waste you'll emit (including fuel emissions). 

IMO a lot of vegetarians' motives expose their backwardness. Not to say any of you (on this forum) specifically. But really... you aren't considering everything.

p.s. These are my observations, and this tread doesn't *have* to turn into an argument over this.

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## dajo

I'll keep it short





> Think of all the terribly painful long drawn-out deaths that millions of animals go through everyday... thanks to the food chain. Think of wolves ripping the living s**t out of a live moose.



Just two different things. 





> I agree the amount some people eat today is way off... but it's a myth that there is no need. Some people are thick skulled enough to say we aren't even meant to eat meat. Evolution isn't wrong, pain and death is inevitable... part of life even.



a myth? It's a myth that we need meat. 





> We won't cure hunger by extending lives. We aren't meant to live long, but thanks to medicine we're over-populating the earth an catalyzing our own complete destruction. Figure out how much longer you'll live not eating meat, and then consider the amount of fuel used (both fossil and food) as well as what waste you'll emit (including fuel emissions).



That's kind of funny. Should I kill myself? 

Also - We could cure hunger. It's just a question of distribution. 





> IMO a lot of vegetarians' motives expose their backwardness. Not to say any of you (on this forum) specifically. But really... you aren't considering everything.



backwards, where? your arguments are a little weak...

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## mindwanderer

> a myth? It's a myth that we need meat.



Wow, your argument is about as good as mine. I'd say prove it, but I'll start. We have enzymes in our stomachs specific to proteins in meat, we have canines, we've been eating meat for as long as we've been here. We're omnivores... that is to say, we eat meat. A proper diet can have meat and not kill you at a young age. You ignore other variables to make it seem like meat consumption causes these diseases. You don't consider that people that eat lots of meat likely have a less active life style... there may be a cause and effect... but you fail to outline the 'why'. I'm not against vegetarians, as long as they do their studying and don't sound like fools. 





> That's kind of funny. Should I kill myself?



Wow, great counter-point.  ::roll::  You know I'm right and as such try to out me by putting words in my mouth. You could be a politician with the way you carry yourself in arguments. Unfortunately that's not a good thing. 





> Also - We could cure hunger. It's *just* a question of distribution.



Notice the bolded "just". You make it seems like all it takes is distribution. If it were that simple we would've done it by now. And you can't without being a goddamn liar say that the longer an individual in western society lives, the worst off the entire planet is. Even if you're a high and mighty vegan hybrid driving tree hugger. Some vegetarians act like they're the cure to everything wrong in the world. There's waaaay more to it than that... and if people took the time to understand it then I wouldn't have a problem. 





> backwards, where? your arguments are a little weak...



Clearly you have subpar reading comprehension. 

Since you aren't taking the times to flesh out your responses and have a legitimate argument I won't either.

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## ArcanumNoctis

How much does a vegan diet typically cost you a month?

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## ArcanumNoctis

> We won't cure hunger by extending lives. We aren't meant to live long, but thanks to medicine we're over-populating the earth an catalyzing our own complete destruction. Figure out how much longer you'll live not eating meat, and then consider the amount of fuel used (both fossil and food) as well as what waste you'll emit (including fuel emissions). 
> 
> IMO a lot of vegetarians' motives expose their backwardness. Not to say any of you (on this forum) specifically. But really... you aren't considering everything.



Actually, you aren't considering everything. How much production output is wasted on taking care of people who become disabled from strokes, heart attacks, and various diseases/illnesses? A shit load. 

A healthy population is a productive population.

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## mindwanderer

> How much production output is wasted on taking care of people who become disabled from strokes, heart attacks, and various diseases/illnesses? A shit load.



It's fair for me to assume you aren't a specialist in this area, and that you've done research. Could you please show me the research you've done? Tell me how much energy a single person uses in 10 years, and then how much energy a person being 'kept alive' spends in the same ten years. What's that? You can't? You're just making bold assumptions? My half brother's father lived with a stroke for 15 years before dying of colon cancer, and all he had was a single machine monitering him during the night... which uses about as much electricity as a cellular phone. A lot of machines used in hospitals use very little electricity, as they're used largely for monitering and observe, as opposed to moving loads or anything. Just some lights and speakers. 





> A healthy population is a productive population.



Yet a productive population is a destructive population. Think to what extent we've damaged this earth since the industrial revolution. Since the age of efficiency (last 100 years).

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## dajo

@mindwanderer: 

I didn't plan to make a big argument out of it. As I've stated, I wanted to keep it short
and light from the beginning. It's not my thread, also... I don't want to hijack.

It's really late here, I'll come back to it tomorrow, with more explaining. 
I did not realize your passion about the topic.

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## dajo

Ok, lets see... 

You first posted this: 





> I agree the amount some people eat today is way off... but it's a myth that there is no need. Some people are thick skulled enough to say we aren't even meant to eat meat. Evolution isn't wrong, pain and death is inevitable... part of life even.



I assume you agree with me that the amount of produced and consumed 
meat is off, but you think it is a myth that people don't need meat for a 
healthy life, am I correct? That's what you're trying to say, right? 

Lets just start with the biggest and most official study ever conducted 
about vegetarianism and veganism by the American Dietic Association. 





> The American Dietetic Association (ADA) is the United States' largest organization of food and nutrition  professionals, with nearly 67,000 members. Approximately 75 % of ADA's members are registered dietitians and about 4 % are dietetic technicians, registered. The remainder of ADA's members include researchers, educators, students, clinical and community dietetics professionals, consultants and food service managers.



American Dietetic Association Endorses Vegetarian Diets





> July 6, 2009 — Vegetarian diets, if well-planned, are healthful and nutritious for all age groups and can help prevent and treat chronic diseases, according to an updated position paper released by the American Dietetic Association. The revised recommendations are published in the July issue of the Journal of the American Dietetic Association. The position was adopted by the House of Delegates Leadership Team in 1987 and was reaffirmed in 1992, 1996, 2000, and 2006; the updated position paper is to remain in effect until December 31, 2013.







> A well-planned vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all vital nutrients, including protein, omega-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. However, use of supplements or fortified foods may be helpful to boost intake of important nutrients in certain cases.







> The American Dietetic Association contends that carefully planned vegetarian diets, including vegan diets, are healthful and nutritionally sufficient for individuals of all ages, including pregnant or lactating women, infants, children, adolescents, and athletes. During pregnancy, adherence to a nutritionally adequate vegetarian diet can lead to positive health outcomes for both the mother and infant.



full article

And an excerpt of another article that also features where you can get 
the nutritional values your body needs from plant based products: 





> Who says that a vegetarian diet cannot be as nutritious as a non-veg diet? As long as you eat a healthy and well-balanced meal, your body would definitely receive the right amount of nutrition. Moreover, being low on calorie, the vegetarian diet won’t make you fat; if anything, it would help you maintain a slim and flat stomach throughout your entire life.



full article

Then here is another article: 

Beyond Milk and Honey: The Vegan Controversy

This article outlines the benefits and what you have to watch out for, too: 
http://www.americanheart.org/present...dentifier=4777

Excerpts: 





> Are vegetarian diets healthful?
> 
> Most vegetarian diets are low in or devoid of animal products. They’re also usually lower than nonvegetarian diets in total fat, saturated fat and cholesterol. Many studies have shown that vegetarians seem to have a lower risk of obesity, coronary heart disease (which causes heart attack), high blood pressure, diabetes mellitus and some forms of cancer.







> Vegetarian diets can be healthful and nutritionally sound if they’re carefully planned to include essential nutrients. However, a vegetarian diet can be unhealthy if it contains too many calories and/or saturated fat and not enough important nutrients.



full article 

also:

Vegetarian dietary practices and endurance performance





> DC Nieman
> Department of Nutrition, School of Health, Loma Linda University, CA 92350.
> 
> Confounding influences of varying fat, protein, and carbohydrate (CHO) levels, training habits, and lifestyle patterns make the interpretation of specific influences of the diet on endurance performance unclear. In general, exhaustion during prolonged, hard endurance exercise is tied to low muscle glycogen stores. Athletes in heavy training are urged to consume 70% of calories as CHO to maximize body CHO stores. A deemphasis in animal products with an emphasis in high-CHO plant foods would facilitate athletes in conforming to nutritional recommendations. Some female athletes may increase their risk of iron deficiency and/or amenorrhea if a restrictive vegetarian diet is adopted. In general, the high-CHO nature of the vegetarian diet can help the endurance athlete in heavy training maximize body glycogen stores and thus the ability to perform. The balanced vegetarian diet provides the athlete with added reduction in coronary risk factors while meeting all known nutritional needs.



Another one:

U.S. Physicians Say Meat Not Necessary, Actually Harmful

==============================================





> Wow, your argument is about as good as mine. I'd say prove it, but I'll start. We have enzymes in our stomachs specific to proteins in meat, we have canines, we've been eating meat for as long as we've been here. We're omnivores... that is to say, we eat meat. A proper diet can have meat and not kill you at a young age. You ignore other variables to make it seem like meat consumption causes these diseases. You don't consider that people that eat lots of meat likely have a less active life style... there may be a cause and effect... but you fail to outline the 'why'. I'm not against vegetarians, as long as they do their studying and don't sound like fools



If you would have asked me for a source, I would have provided. 

We _are_ omnivores, which means our bodies can substract nutrition 
from animal-products and plants. It turns out that all the nutrition we need 
to be healthy can be found in vegetarian products as well. 

I have never said that if you ate meat as a child, you will die. Obviously 
there is enough living proof to counter this argument, on the other hand 
there is plenty of living proof of healthy vegetarians/vegans. I could be 
considered one for both cases. Also note that I have never said that it is 
impossible to be healthy and eat meat. 

As for the connection to cancer and heart diseases, it is not I, who said 
this, but there are plenty of studies I can back my claim up with. You 
decide if they have been conducted to your satisfaction, all I can do is 
provide you with scientific studies. I have stated this to be a reason for 
me to be a vegan, wether you believe it or not is up to you. 

Scientific Papers: 

Meat consumption and fatal ischemic heart disease. 





> Abstract: The relationship between meat consumption and ischemic heart disease (IHD) mortality was measured in a group of over 25,000 Seventh Day Adventists, beginning in 1960 and continuing through 1980. A postive association was found between meat consumption and IHD mortality for both men and women, and was strongest in younger men. The data indicated that meat-eating men of ages 45-64 had a 3-fold higher IHD mortality risk than non-meat-eating men. This association did not appear to be influenced by marital status, dairy product consumption, or the traditional risk factors of egg consumption, cigarette smoking, or obesity.



Prospective study of major dietary patterns and risk of coronary heart disease in men





> During 8 y of follow-up, we documented 1089 cases of CHD (nonfatal myocardial infarction and fatal CHD). Using factor analysis, we identified 2 major dietary patterns using dietary data collected through a 131-item FFQ. The first factor, which we labeled the "prudent pattern," was characterized by higher intake of vegetables, fruit, legumes, whole grains, fish, and poultry, whereas the second factor, the "Western pattern," was characterized by higher intake of red meat, processed meat, refined grains, sweets and dessert, French fries, and high-fat dairy products. After adjustment for age and CHD risk factors, the relative risks from the lowest to highest quintiles of the prudent pattern score were 1.0, 0.87, 0.79, 0.75, and 0.70 (95% CI: 0.56, 0.86; P for trend = 0.0009). In contrast, the relative  risks across increasing quintiles of the Western pattern score  were 1.0, 1.21, 1.36, 1.40, and 1.64 (95% CI: 1.24, 2.17; P  for trend < 0.0001). These associations persisted in subgroup  analyses according to cigarette smoking, body mass index, and  parental history of myocardial infarction.







> Conclusions: These data suggest that major dietary patterns derived from the FFQ predict risk of CHD, independent of other lifestyle variables.



DIET, OBESITY, AND RISK OF FATAL PROSTATE CANCER





> Findings described in this report are for 6,763 white male Seventh-day  Adventists who completed a dietary questionnaire in 1960. Between  1960 and 1980 mortality data were collected on cohort members.  Overweight men had a significantly higher risk of fatal prostate  cancer than men near their desirable weight. The predicted relative risk of fatal prostate cancer was 2.5 for overweight men. Suggestive positive associations were also seen between fatal prostate cancer and the consumption of milk, cheese, eggs, and meat. There was an orderly dose-response between each of the four animal products and risk. The predicted relative risk of fatal prostate cancer was 3.6 for those who heavily consumed all four animal products. The results of this study and others suggest that animal product consumption and obesity may be risk factors for fatal prostate cancer.



Prevalence of obesity is low in people who do not eat meat.

download the full study here

Diet and Cancer





> The large differences in cancer rates among countries, striking  changes in these rates among migrating populations, and rapid  changes over time within countries indicate that some aspect  of lifestyle or environment is largely responsible for the common  cancers in Western countries. Dietary fat has been hypothesized  to be the key factor because national consumption is correlated  with the international differences. However, detailed analyses  in large prospective studies have not supported an important  role of dietary fat. Instead, positive energy balance, reflected  in early age at menarche and weight gain as an adult, is an important determinant of breast and colon cancers, consistent with numerous studies in animals. As a contributor to positive energy balance, and possibly by other mechanisms, physical inactivity has also been shown to be a risk factor for these diseases and in part accounts for the international differences. Although the percentage of calories from fat in the diet does not appear related to risk of colon cancer, greater risks have been seen with higher consumption of red meat, suggesting that factors other than fat per se are important.







> In many case-control studies, a high consumption of fruits and  vegetables has been associated with reduced risks of numerous  cancers, but recent prospective studies suggest these associations may have been overstated. Among the factors in fruits and vegetables that have been examined in relation to cancer risk, present data most strongly support a benefit of higher folic acid consumption in reducing risks of colon and breast cancers. These findings have been bolstered by an association between incidence of colon cancer and a polymorphism in the gene for methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase, an enzyme involved in folic acid metabolism. The benefits of folic acid appear strongest among persons who regularly consume alcohol, which itself is associated with risk of these cancers. Numerous other aspects of diet are hypothesized to influence the risks of cancers in Western countries, but for the moment the evidence is unclear.



Low body mass index in non-meat eaters: the possible roles of animal fat, dietary fibre and alcohol.





> but you fail to outline the 'why'. I'm not against vegetarians, as 
> long as they do their studying and don't sound like fools



I have stated the reasons why I chose to be vegetarian and then vegan. 
I am not trying to convert and I didn't want to start a big discussion in 
a thread someone else wanted to use, to get asked questions about her 
diet. Also I don't agree with you that I haven't outlined the 'why'. I did, 
lightly (as I have said), but I did. If you want more detail, just ask. 

Would you be this agressive if we were talking about belief? What many 
people don't realize is that in contrast to missionary vegetarians that I 
know exist and find annoying, a vegetarian in the western society has to 
constantly justify himself, as if we were a dangerous crowd. Believe it or 
not, it is getting tiresome over the years to constantly repeat yourself. 





> We won't cure hunger by extending lives. We aren't meant to live long, but thanks to medicine we're over-populating the earth an catalyzing our own complete destruction. Figure out how much longer you'll live not eating meat, and then consider the amount of fuel used (both fossil and food) as well as what waste you'll emit (including fuel emissions).







> Wow, great counter-point.  You know I'm right and as such try to out me by putting words in my mouth. You could be a politician with the way you carry yourself in arguments. Unfortunately that's not a good thing.



You have to pick a stand here. 

Either you think a vegetarian diet being healthy is a myth or you don't. 
If you think that it is and that we are actually living unhealthy, then the 
argument stops there, because I am going to die sooner and I am helping 
the environment in my time alive. 

Many people underestimate the positive effect and the incredible amount 
of water and energy saved through a plant-based diet. Before you get all 
pissy again, just tell me if you want evidence for this, I can provide as well. 
But I must tell you now, it would again be a pretty long post. 

I am not going to live twice as long for sure, but I am saving already a 
high amount of fuel, water, food, energy, far more than I would if I would 
just live a 'normal', but shorter life. I really don't think your math will work 
out. If you decide to call me on it, I hope you are prepared to sit down and 
research as well.

Furthermore, it doesn't stop there, in my opinion. Also included are buying 
only products that are locally available during the season, buying fair trade 
and supporting local trades. Veganism is an entire life style, beyond diet. 

Can you really not see, where the argument that a vegetarian diet is 
unethical, because as a positive side effect it prolongs ones life, is flawed? 
Are you going to use western medicine once you get really sick? Do you 
think doing sport is unethical? Are people, who eat healthy to blame for 
overpopulation, even though the highest concentration of people often 
times occur in populaces with lack of proper nutritional diversity? 

I am not going to prolong my life through chemical or mechanical means, 
I will gladly die when my time comes. But even if I live a longer life than I 
would have, I am not going to feel guilty for it, just by _avoiding_ unhealthy 
products. This is my opinion, you are free to have yours, although I would 
find it hard to believe that you will not expose your own hypocrisy, if you'd 
actually say that in the face of death, you'd waive medicinal care. 





> Notice the bolded "just". You make it seems like all it takes is distribution. If it were that simple we would've done it by now. And you can't without being a goddamn liar say that the longer an individual in western society lives, the worst off the entire planet is. Even if you're a high and mighty vegan hybrid driving tree hugger. Some vegetarians act like they're the cure to everything wrong in the world. There's waaaay more to it than that... and if people took the time to understand it then I wouldn't have a problem.



There is enough food, if it were distributed fairly, hypothetically speaking, 
there is no need for hunger. 





> The world produces enough food to feed everyone. World agriculture produces 17 percent more calories per person today than it did 30 years ago, despite a 70 percent population increase. This is enough to provide everyone in the world with at least 2,720 kilocalories (kcal) per person per day (FAO 2002, p.9).  The principal problem is that many people in the world do not have sufficient land to grow, or income to purchase, enough food.



http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/...cts%202002.htm

I know how complicated these issues are, I know some stuff about economy. 
I did not say that it would be that simple, but there are many reasons that 
could be at cause here, I mean, why do we not erase the debt of Third World 
countries? Right, we benefit off of cheap labor, cheap land and cheap ressources. 
(This is an entirely and huge debate in itself, start a new thread if you want 
to pick me up on this, please)





> Clearly you have subpar reading comprehension. 
> 
> Since you aren't taking the times to flesh out your responses and have a legitimate argument I won't either.



Right back at ya  :wink2: 

===============================================





> How much does a vegan diet typically cost you a month?



It depends. I try to buy ecological as much as I can, which is a little more 
expensive. But you only pay marginally more for soy-,rice- and oat-milk, 
if you buy tofu and soy products unprepared, you will pay less, if you buy 
them already done (there is so much nice stuff already) you sometimes 
pay for a 'steak' 6-7$, for tofu-sausages (5pcs) 5$ and so on. 

You have to know where to get what, though, because you can easily spend 
a small fortune on healthy food. At the beginning your food budget probably 
goes up, but after a while it would adjust to a normal level of costs. 

I am not paying much more for food than before, also because I don't eat 
out as much anymore (for obvious reasons). I can't say exactly, but 200 €, 
which would be 270$ a month for food and drinks altogether sounds about 
right. But this is Europe, the US is more expensive, as far as I remember. 

@undeadjellybean: Sorry, really not trying to take over your thread.

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## mindwanderer

Sorry, I don't have time to read your whole post... but I skimmed over it. It seems this all stems from misunderstanding... that is, you putting words in my mouth.




> I assume you agree with me that the amount of produced and consumed meat is off, but you think it is a myth that people don't need meat for a healthy life, am I correct? That's what you're trying to say, right?



Here's what I'm saying:
Meat in diet =/= unhealthy

I said it's a myth that meat is unhealthy. I never said you can't be vegan and healthy. You made is sound like meat is the worst thing you can do for your body. I agreed that nowadays people go way over board and it shows in their health. You said straight out that meat is not necessary... and I simply said our body is made to eat almsot anything the world throws at us. 

I never said vegan or a omnivore diet is healthy or unhealthy. My grandmother is a lifelong vegan, and she is well into her 70's and perfectly healthy. But many other people in my family, and friends, have eaten a pound of meat or more a week since they were old enough to chew and they're old but still healthy. 

Don't go trough all this trouble just 'cause you were putting words in my mouth. Now you made a big ol' post all for nothing.

edit: As you can now see, this all stems from your misunderstandings. Not by any deficit of mine, like lack of reading comprehension.  :wink2:

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## dajo

/edit: 

nevermind.. it's alright. 

I did cover other points in my post as well.

I, too, have provided evidence for indication of meat being not so healthy. 

btw, I disagree that I have been putting words in your mouth. I have tried to 
analyse your posts and answer as best and as thoroughly as I could and really 
tried to cover everything that you have (or might have) implied. 

If you read (the beginning of) my post in regards of what else you have posted, 
you would see that it was not only appropriate to provide sources for my claim 
that meat is not needed in a diet, but that you actually have requested me to do so.  

I disagree with your last statements as well. I can _not_ now see that all stems
from my misunderstandings. And you have misread me, right at the start, as well. 

But this would be too much nitpicking. No fun, no use.

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## ArcanumNoctis

How much does a vegan diet typically cost you a month?





> It depends. I try to buy ecological as much as I can, which is a little more 
> expensive. But you only pay marginally more for soy-,rice- and oat-milk, 
> if you buy tofu and soy products unprepared, you will pay less, if you buy 
> them already done (there is so much nice stuff already) you sometimes 
> pay for a 'steak' 6-7$, for tofu-sausages (5pcs) 5$ and so on. 
> 
> You have to know where to get what, though, because you can easily spend 
> a small fortune on healthy food. At the beginning your food budget probably 
> goes up, but after a while it would adjust to a normal level of costs. 
> ...



I'm thinking just in terms of raw ingredients. Should be cheaper in that case, especially if things like rice/beans etc. are bought in bulk. Thanks!

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## Caradon

Can I have the smoothie recipe?

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## Spartiate

Do any vegetarians enjoy the taste of meat?

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## undeadjellybean

> Do you have a recipe for that?



You can put about anything that comes to your mind you think will taste good. But I'll show you some recipes. My favourite one is with spinach & frozen strawberries or blueberries.
Look, this page really helps: http://www.greensmoothie.com/blend/green.html
This are some of the recipes: 2-3 cups any greens of your choice, 2 cups papaya, 2 oranges, 3 dates

1 handful lettuce leaves, 1 handful mint, 4 bananas, 1/2 cup water

Winter Smoothie - 1 cup organic frozen berries (any kind), 2 cups fresh spinach, 1/4 inch fresh ginger, water

Spring Smoothie - fresh orange juice, ripe bananas, frozen mangoes, and several large leaves of kale 
(extra frozen mango gives lovely thick consistency you eat with a bowl + spoon)

1/2 bunch romaine lettuce, 1 cup strawberries, 2 bananas, water

4-5 kale leaves, 4 apples, 1/2 lemon juiced, water

2 big handfuls mixed baby greens, 2 pears, 2 mangoes, 1 cup fresh or frozen blueberries

Choc-mint  2 cups spinach, 10-12 mint leaves, 3 bananas, 2 Tbs. carob powder, 1 cup water

1 handful of spinach, 2 stalks of celery, 2 bananas, 2 pears, 1 apple, 1 cup water

1 small handful of spinach, 2 cups arugula, 2-3 mangoes, 1 cup water

1/2 head romaine lettuce, 1 small pineapple, 1 large mango, 1-inch fresh ginger

1 handful wild greens (e.g. dandelion), 1 small handful mint leaves, 3 cups honeydew melon

3-4 stalks celery, 2 ripe persimmons, 1 banana

1 handful chard leaves, 5-6 kale leaves, 3 large bananas, 1 cup water

1 handful parsley, 3 cups of peeled papaya

& this one: http://www.greensmoothiechallenge.com/ is a good one too. They send you an e-mail daily with a green smoothie recipe & motivation.

----------


## undeadjellybean

> Wow, your argument is about as good as mine. I'd say prove it, but I'll start. We have enzymes in our stomachs specific to proteins in meat, we have canines, we've been eating meat for as long as we've been here. We're omnivores... that is to say, we eat meat. A proper diet can have meat and not kill you at a young age. You ignore other variables to make it seem like meat consumption causes these diseases. You don't consider that people that eat lots of meat likely have a less active life style... there may be a cause and effect... but you fail to outline the 'why'. I'm not against vegetarians, as long as they do their studying and don't sound like fools. 
> 
> 
> Wow, great counter-point.  You know I'm right and as such try to out me by putting words in my mouth. You could be a politician with the way you carry yourself in arguments. Unfortunately that's not a good thing. 
> 
> 
> Notice the bolded "just". You make it seems like all it takes is distribution. If it were that simple we would've done it by now. And you can't without being a goddamn liar say that the longer an individual in western society lives, the worst off the entire planet is. Even if you're a high and mighty vegan hybrid driving tree hugger. Some vegetarians act like they're the cure to everything wrong in the world. There's waaaay more to it than that... and if people took the time to understand it then I wouldn't have a problem. 
> 
> 
> ...



Here you are, mindwanderer: http://www.celestialhealing.net/physicalveg3.htm
it's how humans are not physically created to eat meat. I'd really appreciate though that this thread is used for questions and not an argument.

----------


## undeadjellybean

> Do any vegetarians enjoy the taste of meat?



You mean enjoyed?
I did. I really loved meat, especially bacon. But it's all worth it when you remember why you're doing it  :smiley:

----------


## mindwanderer

You can't really expect me to take this crap as being anything of than complete garbage can you? First of all that's from a website called celestial healing dot net, and second of all it contains childish logic. 





> Meat-eaters: have claws
> 
> Herbivores: no claws 
> 
> Humans: no claws



Thus:
Saddam Hussein: has facial hair
Stalin: has facial hair
Obama: no facial hair

So facial hair equals evil? Just something to think about as far as that logic.

And secondly... this site gives no mention of omnivores in the comparisons. It says meat eater, herbivore, and human. That's the type of ignorant garbage that twists peoples mind. This site is CLEARLY biased. As well, it states that raw bloody meats disgusts humans... well that's an effect of society and culture, not evolution. I practiced a raw beef diet for several weeks, and grew to like the taste. This person also goes about reasoning in a non-scientific method. 

My highschool bio prof had 30 years experience in human biology, and one thing he loved to argue about was the misconception that meat is bad for humans. We have canines, we have the enzymes for digesting complex proteins... our digestive system is perfectly at home digesting meat. Though I should be clear, cooked meat is the problem. People who practice a raw meat diet are way better off, since the enzymes and proteins aren't denatured through cooking. 

None the less, you'll have to do better than a site 

Again, I aknowledge that a diet high in meat can be unhealthy depending on how lean the meat is and what lifestyle you have. But it is not true that meat is inherently bad for humans and that we aren't meant to eat it.

----------


## undeadjellybean

> You can't really expect me to take this crap as being anything of than complete garbage can you? First of all that's from a website called celestial healing dot net, and second of all it contains childish logic. 
> 
> 
> Thus:
> Saddam Hussein: has facial hair
> Stalin: has facial hair
> Obama: no facial hair
> 
> So facial hair equals evil? Just something to think about as far as that logic.
> ...



You're right. Again, let's not use this thread to argue. This thread is for people to *ask.* Not argue/debate. We can do that through PMs or other threads.

----------


## mindwanderer

Sorry, I've been a dick...

----------


## undeadjellybean

Don't worry. You haven't, you just got very passionate about your arguments, it happens to all of us, I think  :tongue2:

----------


## Caradon

Cool, thanks for the recipe and links. I missed that earlier. I'm going to try that for sure.

----------


## Spartiate

> You mean enjoyed?
> I did. I really loved meat, especially bacon. But it's all worth it when you remember why you're doing it



I could potentially see why someone would go vegetarian due to the conditions in which animals are raised/killed.  Arguments that humans aren't made to eat meat or that eating meat in general is specifically unhealthy are nonsense though.

So that withstanding, if you enjoy the taste of meat, why not just buy meat advertised as being organic or "ethically raised".  There is a market for that.

----------


## Xox

> I could potentially see why someone would go vegetarian due to the conditions in which animals are raised/killed.  Arguments that humans aren't made to eat meat or that eating meat in general is specifically unhealthy are nonsense though.
> 
> So that withstanding, if you enjoy the taste of meat, why not just buy meat advertised as being organic or "ethically raised".  There is a market for that.



CBA

----------


## Siиdяed

> CBA



There should be a minimum letter count for posts or something.

----------


## Spartiate

> CBA



I was asking people who enjoy the taste of meat (e.g. bacon).

----------


## dajo

What's CBA? 

Edit: If it's Cost-Benefit Analysis, then there would probably be no better way, 
to explain, why I'm vegetarian. Many different factors play a role and when it 
comes down to it, comparing the arguments is what makes it easy for me to 
decide.  :smiley:   :wink2: 

But I have a feeling that is not what you meant  :tongue2: 





> Do any vegetarians enjoy the taste of meat?



Most of the taste lies in the use of spices anyway. I did enjoy the taste 
of meat, before I was a vegetarian for sure and I could probably now, if 
I didn't automatically associate the process of it all. 

While I did enjoy the taste a lot, I have never missed it ever since I stopped eating. 





> I could potentially see why someone would go vegetarian due to the conditions in which animals are raised/killed.  Arguments that humans aren't made to eat meat or that eating meat in general is specifically unhealthy are nonsense though.
> 
> So that withstanding, if you enjoy the taste of meat, why not just buy meat advertised as being organic or "ethically raised".  There is a market for that.



While you can say that eating meat in general being unhealthy is nonsense, 
it is not that a vegetarian diet _generally_ is more healthy. I have provided a 
number of (also scientific papers and) sources to support that stance. You 
can of course disagree, but it is a reason for me and neccessary for me to 
mention, in order for you to understand my reasoning. 

Second paragraph: 
I don't eat meat, because I don't see an inherent reason in the first place. 
Furthermore, it had been shown that 'ecological' meat is generally not really 
more environment friendly, the 'ethical market' is not always as ethically 
correct as advertised. Marketing isn't always telling the turth and as a 
matter of fact, on a globalized market, you can never really know unless 
you have observed it yourself. That is true for probably all products. 
(I'm not making this up, I would love for them to be these farms that we 
would like them to be, but that 'ethical' market has gotten pretty big itself) 

Even if animals weren't to suffer as much, wasting of ressources, water 
and a pretty big impact on environemnt still prevail. (I could look for some 
sources if you'd like, but I have read it quite a few times) 

Although I would support people buying ecological meat, I wouldn't do it 
myself, because I don't think it is right to raise animals for slaughter (without 
the inherent reason, other than tradition, imo) in the first place. Also I just 
have to ask myself - if all people were to buy there, than it would just be 
a transfer of the circumstances without much change. 

Like I said, just trying to explain my POV.

----------


## Spartiate

> What's CBA?



Can't be arsed...


Anyways, meat specifically isn't unhealthy.  It's the type of meat, the method of preparation and the proportions that make the difference.  I don't really consider fast-food "meat", and deep frying in general is pretty bad for your health.  Fatty meats like bacon would be bad for you if you ate a ton every day, but having a couple slices every now and then will probably make me live longer because of the moral boost alone  :tongue2: .  I know some people that only eat the meat of wild animals they've hunted/caught.  That meat is extremely lean and healthy, free of most of the crap that is pumped into livestock.  I'm sure there are many vegetarians leading unhealthy diets because they don't properly compensate for the lack of protein and minerals that they are no longer taking in.

Also I don't have an inherent need to drink beer either, but I enjoy it so why not?  Do you eat egg or dairy products?  Because if you're going the ethical route (or resources route), egg-laying chickens and milk cows don't exactly have it better.

----------


## dajo

> I know some people that only eat the meat of wild animals they've hunted/caught.  That meat is extremely lean and healthy, free of most of the crap that is pumped into livestock.



This to me is like the difference between night and day. 





> I'm sure there are many vegetarians leading unhealthy diets because they don't properly compensate for the lack of protein and minerals that they are no longer taking in.



Basically it comes down to that in order to eat healthy, you need basic nutritions. 
Of course, vegetarians can be unhealthy. But lack of protein is not as big of an 
issue as most people believe. 





> Also I don't have an inherent need to drink beer either, but I enjoy it so why not?  Do you eat egg or dairy products?  Because if you're going the ethical route (or resources route), egg-laying chickens and milk cows don't exactly have it better.



Well, if you'd bring up a good case to show I am hurting others and the environment, 
I would consider not drinking it anymore, regardless if I enjoy it. I'm not going down 
any particular road, I picked up on 'ethical' from your post and as to why I wouldn't 
buy any meat in these kind of outlets either. Also I am not sure how this branch 
of industry is called in English exactly. In Germany it's 'Bio'. 

It would have to be reasonable, and in my eyes it's reasonable to pass on meat. 
(that's responding to the beer thing, it's good to do things one enjoys, I just really 
try to find those that involve as little suffering or waste as possible, which is not easy)

But ressources and ethical reasons are driving forces, and reasons, why I 
wouldn't cut myself any slack. And while I was researching it, I came 
to the conclusion that there is in actuality no big difference between meat, 
dairy products and eggs and that is why I don't consume these either. So, 
to answer your question, no I don't.

Edit: 
Just to make it absolutely clear: 
I am not thinking of myself of being on some moral highground. 
This often happens when people start to talk about ethics. I'm really not.

Edit2: 

When I say ecological, I usually am talking more about rain forest, waste, ressources and this stuff.

----------


## IndigoGhost

*I raise your Vegitarian'ism and see you Vegan'ism*

*I have been a vegan for ages now, its truely a great way to live!* 

*I do it because i really believe that not eating any animal product leads to a clear mind and lets me be able to get to a higher level of meditation, and so far this is truth.*

----------


## ArcanumNoctis

> *I raise your Vegitarian'ism and see you Vegan'ism*
> 
> *I have been a vegan for ages now, its truely a great way to live!* 
> 
> *I do it because i really believe that not eating any animal product leads to a clear mind and lets me be able to get to a higher level of meditation, and so far this is truth.*



Realistically, the meats and processed foods we eat in this day and age have all sorts of added chemicals. Antibiotics, growth hormones, ammonia, etc.. The only time you would find your food toyed with when it comes to vegetables is through it being processed or if it is genetically modified. Both are avoidable, though GM is probably the most difficult to avoid.

What you said is pretty much factual.

----------


## dajo

> *I raise your Vegitarian'ism and see you Vegan'ism*



call.  :smiley: 

I was wondering, if there were any vegans on DV for a while. 
So now I count three so far. That's nice to know.

----------


## ArcanumNoctis

> call. 
> 
> I was wondering, if there were any vegans on DV for a while. 
> So now I count three so far. That's nice to know.



Yeah, its nice. I'm going Vegan in about four to five weeks. It is why I was curious as to the monthly costs. I'm going on leave to visit family, which while I'm there, I'm going to get hooked up with a bunch of good Vegan recipes.

Mostly doing it to be healthy, to guarantee controllable longevity. If it helps meditation and the induction of dreams, that would be a nice bonus.

----------


## hellohihello

What are your thoughts when you see someone eat a hamburger.

----------


## ArcanumNoctis

> What are your thoughts when you see someone eat a hamburger.



Someone for animal rights and someone that is vegan are two completely different things. It is stereotyping to think that someone vegan is also aggressive for animal rights like PETA.

----------


## IndigoGhost

> What are your thoughts when you see someone eat a hamburger.




_"Have fun eating your favorite dead thing."~_ 

*For the most part though i don't care because 80% of people will do what makes them happy and not what is right, so why force them to change, if they want to they will change themselves. I just hope they don't get it anywhere near me* 

*The annoying thing i have noticed though is for some reason non Vegan/Vegetarian people will ignore you or even get mad at you for not eating meat and wont leave you alone about it, its really annoying* 

*Probably a primal thing.*

----------


## dajo

> Yeah, its nice. I'm going Vegan in about four to five weeks. It is why I was curious as to the monthly costs. I'm going on leave to visit family, which while I'm there, I'm going to get hooked up with a bunch of good Vegan recipes.
> 
> Mostly doing it to be healthy, to guarantee controllable longevity. If it helps meditation and the induction of dreams, that would be a nice bonus.



 ::banana:: 





> What are your thoughts when you see someone eat a hamburger.



For the most part, I don't mind, because I can vividly remember how it is 
to not consider any of the arguments and more often not know about them. 

Depending on the mood, I sometimes feel a little bit helpless and sad, because 
it can be overwhelming, if you take a look around and not really see any way 
that things could change in the near future. But that feeling could be applied 
to different things, many of you probably know it. 

Most of the time, though, it doesn't affect me much. It's a little as if this 
food just doesn't exist for me anymore. :-)

----------


## hellohihello

Okay I was just wondering, because now when I see people with alligator skin handbags/shoes I get grossed out.

----------


## undeadjellybean

> Yeah, its nice. I'm going Vegan in about four to five weeks. It is why I was curious as to the monthly costs. I'm going on leave to visit family, which while I'm there, I'm going to get hooked up with a bunch of good Vegan recipes.
> 
> Mostly doing it to be healthy, to guarantee controllable longevity. If it helps meditation and the induction of dreams, that would be a nice bonus.



It's pretty cool to meet fellow vegetarians  :smiley: 
Well, good luck, it's pretty awesome! Your skin changes, & yeah supposedly it helps meditation.
I want to go raw, but like you, I want to get to know the food before I go completely raw  :smiley:

----------


## undeadjellybean

> What are your thoughts when you see someone eat a hamburger.



Wonder if I can have a veggie burger nearby or something.

----------


## undeadjellybean

> Okay I was just wondering, because now when I see people with alligator skin handbags/shoes I get grossed out.



Well, that's a BIT different for me. Many people are taught that eating meat is healthy & everything. Now, wearing fur just for the sake of wearing fur - that does anger me.

----------


## dajo

> Okay I was just wondering, because now when I see people with alligator skin handbags/shoes I get grossed out.



In the beginning it was different. But it would gets tiresome after a while, 
because meat really is everywhere around us. This would just have made 
me bitter in the long run - and that's really not the kind of person I am...

But I suppose that occasionaly, I still get grossed out, yeah. 

For example, usually my roomate is a vegetarian, also. But now I am on 
a 6 weeks short-semester in a different town with 3 guys that eat quite a 
lot of meat. Having to make the dishes grosses me out and I always ask 
them to at least clean off all the chunks, before I start.

If I let myself think about it, I would probably get grossed out more often.

----------


## defygravity

I've been considering becoming vegetarian/vegan for quite sometime. As far as being vegan...I love milk and eggs.....I like soymilk, but I much prefer regular milk....what are the health benefits of becoming vegetarian as opposed to those of being vegan?

what are some sites/ tips you'd give me on beginning to become a vegetarian?!

----------


## IndigoGhost

> I've been considering becoming vegetarian/vegan for quite sometime. As far as being vegan...I love milk and eggs.....I like soymilk, but I much prefer regular milk....what are the health benefits of becoming vegetarian as opposed to those of being vegan?
> 
> what are some sites/ tips you'd give me on beginning to become a vegetarian?!



*Vegetarian = Health*
*Vegan = Spiritual or Beliefs*

*This is the way i see it, there is not a huge jump up in health benefits from Vegetarian to Vegan, if you wish to be either of them then the things you have to watch for are B12,Iron and Protein, they are more tricky if your interested in being a Vegan though, my suggestion, do as i did. * 

*Pesco-vegetarianism -> Ovo-lacto-vegetarian -> Lacto-vegetarian -> Vegan*

_I did this over 2 years, but you can do it faster or slower as you wish, i just find this a very easy way to cut things out, because it gives you a time to adjust so you don't fall back. 
_

----------


## XeL

Personally, I get really disgusted by the thought of eating something so closely related to a human being. 

And I agree with dajo, becoming a vegetarian was one of the best decisions I've ever made.

----------


## dajo

> *This is the way i see it, there is not a huge jump up in health benefits from Vegetarian to Vegan, if you wish to be either of them then the things you have to watch for are B12,Iron and Protein, they are more tricky if your interested in being a Vegan though, my suggestion, do as i did. *



Yeah, I think you are mainly right, many people go vegan for reasons 
other than health and for most the leap is quite small. Although there 
are also quite a few people with a lactose intolerance that just don't do 
well with milk products.  I know some that went vegan only for health. 





> I've been considering becoming vegetarian/vegan for quite sometime. As far as being vegan...I love milk and eggs.....I like soymilk, but I much prefer regular milk....what are the health benefits of becoming vegetarian as opposed to those of being vegan?



Health is pretty dependent on the individual. The thing is, you can live 
very healthy either way, you just have to provide your body whith what 
it needs. General guidelines help, but you also have to listen to yourself. 
Your body reacts according to what is good for it and what is not. 





> what are some sites/ tips you'd give me on beginning to become a vegetarian?!



There is a lot on the net if you just google 'vegetarianism'. On the previous 
page I had one reply with many links, some of them were about how it is 
healthy and what you'd need to watch out for in order to be so. If I come 
across any good ones with general tips, I'll put them in here. 





> And I agree with dajo, becoming a vegetarian was one of the best decisions I've ever made.



 ::banana:: 

I like this thread  :smiley:

----------


## undeadjellybean

> *Vegetarian = Health*
> *Vegan = Spiritual or Beliefs*
> 
> *This is the way i see it, there is not a huge jump up in health benefits from Vegetarian to Vegan, if you wish to be either of them then the things you have to watch for are B12,Iron and Protein, they are more tricky if your interested in being a Vegan though, my suggestion, do as i did. * 
> 
> *Pesco-vegetarianism -> Ovo-lacto-vegetarian -> Lacto-vegetarian -> Vegan*
> 
> _I did this over 2 years, but you can do it faster or slower as you wish, i just find this a very easy way to cut things out, because it gives you a time to adjust so you don't fall back. 
> _



Well, in my opinion there IS a big difference. Dairy has mucous properties, and they go to your stomach. I noticed a huge difference when I minimized dairy.
But I do see it like you 
Ovo-lacto-vegetarian > vegan > raw

----------


## undeadjellybean

> I've been considering becoming vegetarian/vegan for quite sometime. As far as being vegan...I love milk and eggs.....I like soymilk, but I much prefer regular milk....what are the health benefits of becoming vegetarian as opposed to those of being vegan?
> 
> what are some sites/ tips you'd give me on beginning to become a vegetarian?!



Although some people hate peta they are really supporting, anyways here you can order a free vegetarian kit http://www.goveg.com/order.asp

----------


## defygravity

thanks! also, I know some vegetarians who eat fish, what's your thoughts on this? do you eat fish?

EDIT:
nevermind! I saw this http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video....sons&Player=wm

I'm just blown away. I've been thinking about becoming vegetarian/vegan for quite sometime, but I've never really done the research. Now I'm starting too, and I'm just shocked.

I'm definately going to be coming vegetarian VERY soon. 

Thank you for this thread, it really brought many things to my attention.

----------


## Paraknight

I've been wondering about something for quite some time. (Sorry if you've been asked it already; I tried to look for anything related in this thread as best I could but just don't have the time to comb those blocks of text.  :tongue2: )

I read this a while back:

http://www.damninteresting.com/meat-o-matic

What do you think? Would you eat meat if it were created entirely without the involvement of an animal?

Also:

Beans, nuts, peas, lentils, and soy may have a substantial amount of protein, but animal meat still beat them in many ways. Apparently human meat is king when it comes to human nutritional needs (obviously, but _that's_ not hitting the market any time soon.  ::roll:: ) If you had an alternative, such as artificial, cultured meat, that would be identical to animal meat, would you take it?

----------


## Spartiate

> If you had an alternative, such as artificial, cultured meat, that would be identical to animal meat, would you take it?



No, that's just weird.  And I'm pretty much a carnivore.

----------


## Paraknight

> No, that's just weird.  And I'm pretty much a carnivore.



So am I for the most part. But...





> There would be a lot of benefits from cultured meat, says Matheny, who studies agricultural economics and public health. For one thing, you could control the nutrients. For example, most meats are high in the fatty acid Omega 6, which can cause high cholesterol and other health problems. With in vitro meat, you could replace that with Omega 3, which is a healthy fat.
> Cultured meat could also reduce the pollution that results from raising livestock, and you wouldnt need the drugs that are used on animals raised for meat.

----------


## Spartiate

Call me a purist, but no, my meat will come from animals  :tongue2: .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ueh3U1zwfy8

----------


## Paraknight

> Call me a purist, but no, my meat will come from animals .
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ueh3U1zwfy8



Hehe, fair enough. What about being plugged into a machine that makes you think you're eating meat while your eating a soup of nutrients then?  :Cheeky:

----------


## dajo

> I've been wondering about something for quite some time. (Sorry if you've been asked it already; I tried to look for anything related in this thread as best I could but just don't have the time to comb those blocks of text. )
> 
> I read this a while back:
> 
> http://www.damninteresting.com/meat-o-matic
> 
> What do you think? Would you eat meat if it were created entirely without the involvement of an animal?
> 
> Also:
> ...







> So am I for the most part. But...



That is an interesting question, indeed. Especially since it opens up 
the possibility for more ecological production and also lower the health 
risks. I would probably not, though, for two reasons: 

1. I don't miss meat at all.

2. The thought bothers me to switch from a diet that provides my body 
with everything that it needs and even grows naturally upon our planet 
with something artifically engineered, for no apparent reason. 

For many people it would surely be a great alternative, especially given 
the positive side effects, but since I don't eat meat in the first place, I 
just don't see the point.

----------


## Paraknight

> That is an interesting question, indeed. Especially since it opens up 
> the possibility for more ecological production and also lower the health 
> risks. I would probably not, though, for two reasons: 
> 
> 1. I don't miss meat at all.
> 
> 2. The thought bothers me to switch from a diet that provides my body 
> with everything that it needs and even grows naturally upon our planet 
> with something artifically engineered, for no apparent reason. 
> ...



Ok then what if it meant helping solve world hunger in our future extremely overpopulated world? Would that be a reason?

----------


## dajo

> Ok then what if it meant helping solve world hunger in our future extremely overpopulated world? Would that be a reason?



I highly doubt that you could only live off of the artificial meat. Variety is needed.  

But as world hunger goes, it is one of the main reasons that I don't consume animal 
products in the first place. It would be a great alternative with many positive side effects, 
for those that still want to eat "meat", but if it were up to me, we didn't need one-crop 
agriculture in the first place.

Or do you mean to go into entirely hypothetical situations, like the matrix? 
Where you eat a 'soup' get the sensation of whatever you want and nothing 
had to be produced to begin with? Or a replicator would be nice, for example. 

Well, if we'd had a way that we could consume without all the implications 
of mass production and if it were for this that our planet could provide for 
the (hypothetically existing) 30 billion people, I sure as hell wouldn't want 
to be the guy in the way.

I don't mean to dodge your question, if I misunderstood and didn't answer 
correctly, please elaborate further what you meant.

----------


## Paraknight

> I don't mean to dodge your question, if I misunderstood and didn't answer correctly, please elaborate further what you meant.



Not at all, just wondering what your opinion was.  ::thanks:: 

Btw, look at what I just noticed in the emotes:  :Dead Horse:  
 ::disconcerted::

----------


## IndigoGhost

*I would not eat the fake meat, just because theres no reason to do so.*

*Also it is like GM vegan foods, i will not touch anything that is man made.*

----------


## undeadjellybean

> thanks! also, I know some vegetarians who eat fish, what's your thoughts on this? do you eat fish?
> 
> EDIT:
> nevermind! I saw this http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video....sons&Player=wm
> 
> I'm just blown away. I've been thinking about becoming vegetarian/vegan for quite sometime, but I've never really done the research. Now I'm starting too, and I'm just shocked.
> 
> I'm definately going to be coming vegetarian VERY soon. 
> 
> Thank you for this thread, it really brought many things to my attention.



Lol, I won't click the video. Never been able to watch one, I'm fine with just the descriptions XD
Anyways, yes, those are called pescetarians. But I found fish very easy to resist, actually.

----------


## undeadjellybean

> I've been wondering about something for quite some time. (Sorry if you've been asked it already; I tried to look for anything related in this thread as best I could but just don't have the time to comb those blocks of text. )
> 
> I read this a while back:
> 
> http://www.damninteresting.com/meat-o-matic
> 
> What do you think? Would you eat meat if it were created entirely without the involvement of an animal?
> 
> Also:
> ...



RIGHT NOW I would. Because I'm not being completely healthy about my choices, heh. I'm eating chocolate and sweets and stuff, so yeah, I'd eat the artifical one occasionally. I eat soy or veggie burgers too. But if you're becoming vegetarian mostly because you're a health nut (& btw, I'm one) you'd probably wouldn't eat anything artificial.

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## undeadjellybean

> Hehe, fair enough. What about being plugged into a machine that makes you think you're eating meat while your eating a soup of nutrients then?



That would be pretty cool XD. But still, it wouldn't be natural. Ah, technology, my friend and dearest enemy  :tongue2:

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## Cacophony

*The Hunger Argument: 
Number of People worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million 
Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced meat intake by 10%: 60 million 
Human beings in America: 243 million 
Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by US livestock: 1.3 billion 
Percentage of corn grown in US eaten by people: 20% 
Percentage of corn grown in US eaten by livestock: 80% 
Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90% 
Percentage of oats grown in US eaten by livestock: 95% 
How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds 
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 20, 000 lbs 
Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 165 lbs 
Percentage of US farmland devoted to beef production: 56% 
Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce 1 pound of feedlot beef: 16 lbs. 

The Environmental Argument: 
Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect 
Primary cause of greenhouse effect: Carbon Dioxide from fossil fuels 
Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more 
Percentage of US topsoil lost to date: 75% 
Percentage of US topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85% 
Number of acres of US forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million acres 
Amount of meat US imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, and Panama: 200, 000, 000 pounds 
Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salveador, Guatemala, Honduras, and Panama: Less than eaten by average US house cat 
Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every quarter-pounder hamburger: 55 sq. ft. 
Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1, 000 species extinct per year 

The Cancer Argument: 
Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat four times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times 
Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat eggs daily vs less than once a week: 3 times 
Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat cheese and butter 3 or more times a week vs less than once a week: 3 times 
Increased risk of ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs less than once a week: 3 times 
Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who consume meat, cheese, eggs and milk daily vs sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times 

The Natural Resources Argument: 
User of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the US: Livestock production 
Amount of water to produce a pound of wheat: 25 gallons 
Amount of water to produce a pound of meat: 2, 500 gallons 
Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by US taxpayer: $35/pound 
Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: $89 
Years the world's known oil reserves will last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13 years 
Years the world's known oil reserves will last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260 years 
Barrels of oil imported into US daily: 6.8 million 
Percentage of fossil fuel energy returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5 percent 
Percentage returned as food energy from least efficient plant food: 328% 
Percentage of raw materials consumed by US to produce present meat-centered diet: 33% 

The Cholesterol Argument: 
Number of US Medical Schools: 125 
Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 
Nutrition training received by average US physician during four years in medical school: 2.5 hours 
Most common cause of death in the US: Heart attack 
How frequently a heart attack kills in the US: Every 45 seconds 
Average US man's risk of death from heart attack: 50% 
Risk for average US man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15% 
Risk for average US vegan man: 4% 
Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption of animal products by 10 percent: 9% 
Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption of animal products by 50 percent: 45% 
Amount you reduce risk by changing to a vegan diet: 90 percent 
Meat, dairy, and egg industries claim you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: "normal" 
Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is "normal": greater than 50% 

The Antibiotic Argument: 
Percentage of US antibiotics fed to livestock: 55% 
Percentage of staph infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13% 
Percentage of staph infections resistant to penicillin in 1988: 91% 
Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: Ban 
Response of US meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: Full and complete support 

The Pesticide Argument: 
Percentage of pesticide residues in the US diet supplied by grains: 1% 
Percentage of pesticide residues in the US diet supplied by fruits: 4% 
Percentage of pesticide residues in the US diet supplied by vegetables: 6% 
Percentage of pesticide residues in the US diet supplied by dairy products: 23% 
Percentage of pesticide residues in the US diet supplied by meat: 55% 
Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat eating mothers vs non-meat eating: 35 times higher 
What USDA tells us: Meat is inspected 
Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxic chemicals such as dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004% 

The Ethical Argument: 
Number of animals killed for meat per hour in US: 500, 000 
Occupation with highest turnover rate in US: Slaughterhouse Worker 
Occupation with the highest rate of on-the-job injury in US: Slaughterhouse 
Worker Cost to render animal unconscious with "captive bolt pistol": 1 cent 
Reason given by meat industry for not using "captive bolt pistol": Too expensive*

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## Spartiate

> Human beings in America: 243 million



This number is off by about 60 million.  Who's to say the rest is accurate  :tongue2: .

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## XeL

What I personally don't understand is meat-eaters who simply can't accept that there might be a slight _possibility_ that their way of living isn't the healthiest. Why do they have to get so defensive about it? I drink coke because I like the taste, although I know it's not healthy. I'm still very well aware of the fact that it would be better for me to drink let's say juice.

Instead, they'll start picking on people for not eating meat. I'm actually getting really sick and tired of people criticizing me for my way of living. And when you back it up with solid arguments they'll laugh it off. I swear, I haven't had one single conversation with a meat-eater about this that has ended with them saying: "Alright, it's actually really good that you want to live healthy and that you care for the environment." It just doesn't happen for some reason.

Sigh.

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## Paraknight

> What I personally don't understand is meat-eaters who simply can't accept that there might be a slight _possibility_ that their way of living isn't the healthiest. Why do they have to get so defensive about it? I drink coke because I like the taste, although I know it's not healthy. I'm still very well aware of the fact that it would be better for me to drink let's say juice.
> 
> Instead, they'll start picking on people for not eating meat. I'm actually getting really sick and tired of people criticizing me for my way of living. And when you back it up with solid arguments they'll laugh it off. I swear, I haven't had one single conversation with a meat-eater about this that has ended with them saying: "Alright, it's actually really good that you want to live healthy and that you care for the environment." It just doesn't happen for some reason.
> 
> Sigh.



You're right, but that doesn't only apply for vegetarians or vegans. Ignorance and blind pride are very common. The same happens the other way around. For example I see absolutely no problem in eating artificial meat and I definitely would if given the chance. Nobody ever gives me reasons for not wanting to other than "It's not natural" or the like. To this day, there are a number of arguments that I know I won't get a legitimate reply to. All I _do_ know is that they simply don't want to, and who am I to tell them what to do? My morals have more of a hedonistic, stoic edge though, so I often disagree with many people. It's like this religion vs. atheism stuff; if they're happy doing something and they're not harming you, then just let them do it. That's what I think anyway.

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## lordyM

> What I personally don't understand is meat-eaters who simply can't accept that there might be a slight _possibility_ that their way of living isn't the healthiest. Why do they have to get so defensive about it? I drink coke because I like the taste, although I know it's not healthy. I'm still very well aware of the fact that it would be better for me to drink let's say juice.
> 
> Instead, they'll start picking on people for not eating meat. I'm actually getting really sick and tired of people criticizing me for my way of living. And when you back it up with solid arguments they'll laugh it off. I swear, I haven't had one single conversation with a meat-eater about this that has ended with them saying: "Alright, it's actually really good that you want to live healthy and that you care for the environment." It just doesn't happen for some reason.
> 
> Sigh.



Didn't know you were a vagitarian Axel

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## undeadjellybean

> What I personally don't understand is meat-eaters who simply can't accept that there might be a slight _possibility_ that their way of living isn't the healthiest. Why do they have to get so defensive about it? I drink coke because I like the taste, although I know it's not healthy. I'm still very well aware of the fact that it would be better for me to drink let's say juice.
> 
> Instead, they'll start picking on people for not eating meat. I'm actually getting really sick and tired of people criticizing me for my way of living. And when you back it up with solid arguments they'll laugh it off. I swear, I haven't had one single conversation with a meat-eater about this that has ended with them saying: "Alright, it's actually really good that you want to live healthy and that you care for the environment." It just doesn't happen for some reason.
> 
> Sigh.




That's so true! It tires me when I have to explain to many people why I am vegetarian, while they're just waiting for me to finish so they can lecture me about how to eat.

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## lordyM

> That's so true! It tires me when I have to explain to many people why I am vegetarian, while they're just waiting for me to finish so they can lecture me about how to eat.



"You should really eat meat! It's unhealthy not to!"

Yeah, because the human body absolutely needs meat to survive.  ::roll::  Idiots.

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## Paraknight

> "You should really eat meat! It's unhealthy not to!"
> 
> Yeah, because the human body absolutely needs meat to survive.  Idiots.



I've seen a study somewhere even on teeth. You know how grazing animals and the like have completely rounded teeth and how the hardcore predators all have sharp teeth? Apparently we're "meant" to be eating meat evolutionarily because of our sharp canines or something along the lines.  ::roll::

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## undeadjellybean

Because eating something dead makes you live longer... -.-

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## Spartiate

Unless you're eating rocks or something Korean your diet is probably composed of dead stuff too.

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## undeadjellybean

> Unless you're eating rocks or something Korean your diet is probably composed of dead stuff too.



OR maybe I'm a raw foodist

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## ArcanumNoctis

> I've seen a study somewhere even on teeth. You know how grazing animals and the like have completely rounded teeth and how the hardcore predators all have sharp teeth? Apparently we're "meant" to be eating meat evolutionarily because of our sharp canines or something along the lines.



It is because we are scavengers. There are some essential vitamins we derive from meat, but a single meat meal once a year will suffice.

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## Spartiate

> OR maybe I'm a raw foodist



Whether you cook it or not doesn't matter, if you rip a plant out of the ground it's dead.

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## undeadjellybean

> Whether you cook it or not doesn't matter, if you rip a plant out of the ground it's dead.



The raw foods diet is otherwise called "The Living Foods Diet"
The Living foods, they're still alive, even when you rip the plant out.

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## Paraknight

> The raw foods diet is otherwise called "The Living Foods Diet"
> The Living foods, they're still alive, even when you rip the plant out.



But surely whatever it is dies while being digested by stomach acid.

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## Spartiate

Is it just me that finds eating dead stuff less weird than eating living stuff  :tongue2: .  If only celery could yell...

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## Paraknight

> Is it just me that finds eating dead stuff less weird than eating living stuff .  If only celery could yell...



Reminds me of this:





An april-fools prank ThinkGeek pulled that was rather obvious.  :Cheeky:

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## XeL

> Is it just me that finds eating dead stuff less weird than eating living stuff .  If only celery could yell...



I don't want to eat something so closely related to a human being.

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## Spartiate

> I don't want to eat something so closely related to a human being.



So a chicken is closely related to a human now?

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## XeL

It has a brain, a heart and a will to live.

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## MadMonkey

I dont have anything against vegitarians. It has some practicle reasons. I dont like it when Christians are vegitarians for the reason that they feel bad for the animals. God put them here to be eatin. From a Christian perspective they dont have souls so it dosn't matter if you kill them they are just as alive as any plant. ::banana::  and is prety important for a balanced diet. plus it tastes good. ::lol::

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## Spartiate

> It has a brain, a heart and a will to live.



Would you eat jellyfish?

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## XeL

No, but for other reasons.

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## dajo

> Is it just me that finds eating dead stuff less weird than eating living stuff .  If only celery could yell...



Edit: Sorry, I just realized that this comment was in response to the raw food diet. Feel free to ignore. 

I don't think you're serious, but just for clarification, three points I'd like to make: 

1. If you cut celery off, or you make a salad, I don't think there's much photosynthesis going on anymore. 

2. Why do people act like there is no difference between alive with brain, fully developed nervous system 
and fully developed conscious abilities (animals dream for example) and plants that are alive as well, but 
lacking some of these distinguishing features.

3. Most importantly, _if_ you were to say that vegetarians are unethical, because they eat tons of plants that 
are alive as well (if only they could scream) your argument would backfire, since through a plant-based 
diet you'd actually be ending up "killing _a lot_ less of them". Letting more plants live is one of the reasons 
I'm doing this  :wink2:  (aka rainforest and waste of precious food) 

I know you weren't totally serious with you remark, but people tried to argue me on that before. 
"Yeah? Plants are living things, too, you know" Yea I know, plants are good people.

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## Serenity

> It has a brain, a heart and a will to live.



It's because of this that I tried to go veggie before. But I'd done no research on a proper diet and made myself sick...

Sorry if this was covered before, I was lightly skimming the thread before logging to finish my work reports...

Anyone currently veggie live with a partner, or generally do the majority of the cooking in their household... do you cook for meat-eaters in your life? What's your practices on cooking for two different diets? Just add meat to whatever it is you made, after you serve your own plate first?

Further to that, what about the personal ethics side of things? I'm going veggie because of many reasons, one of them being the animal cruelty... but my BF is strictly never going to see things the way I do. So whether I don't eat it or not, I still have to cook with it.

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## dajo

There are several good reasons to do the research. It's not difficult to find good information on the 
arguments for a vegetarian diet and also how to pursuit a healthy one. There are literally tons. 
And you should definitely try to be healthy as a top priority. 

Personally, I wouldn't cook with meat. So if I cook for friends and family, it's always strictly vegetarian 
and so far noone I cooked for has complained. But if you are ok with it, I don't think it would be very 
difficult to just simultaneously cook a vegetarian meal and a meat-based one. You can always just 
add the meat later or serve it on an extra plate, so everyone can just pick whatever they want to eat. 

All you probably need is an extra frying pan and some multi-tasking skills. Although there are meals, 
like if you'd want to cook lasagne or something like that, where I'd imagine it being more difficult. 

What kind of meals do you usually cook? 
Maybe we could think of good ways to alter those to be vegetarian as well, without even changing much.

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## Serenity

Oh trust me, it'd be very, very easy to add meat to whatever i'd be cooking!

I'm very much a staples 3-piece meal. Meat, carb and veg. 

I really, really, really hate cooking!

Edit: Told the BF I was considering going veggie and he laughed at me. He bets I'd only last two hours before wanting meat. Nice support, eh? At least I can laugh at him once I switch. You have to _like_ meat to miss it  :tongue2:

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## Xox

> I dont have anything against vegitarians. It has some practicle reasons. I dont like it when Christians are vegitarians for the reason that they feel bad for the animals. God put them here to be eatin. From a Christian perspective they dont have souls so it dosn't matter if you kill them they are just as alive as any plant. and is prety important for a balanced diet. plus it tastes good.



Lol this is the argument my parents use every day. Maybe all Christians don't have the same "soul viewpoint" as you do. Or maybe they do it for different reasons.


Anyway, my family is huge on meat eating, in fact after a year of vegetarianism, my family still insists on offering me food or even trying to sneak in meat to meals. I'm really surrounded by meat, but I feel no desire to eat it. If your willpower/reasoning is strong enough, it'll be no problem.  :smiley: 

My only advice to people thinking about going veg is to LOOK UP THE FACTS. Don't just stop eating meat one day. That's dangerous. There's a lot of stuff you'll be lacking that you'll have to get in other ways.

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## MadMonkey

Ya I know not all Christians have the same viewpoint on weather animals have sould but I think most think they dont, and doing it for different reasons is completly different to me.  :tongue2: 

Your family trying to sneak meat into your food, thats prety mesed up!

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## Jorge

Why is it that all the greatest tasting foods aren't allowed??/

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## undeadjellybean

But it's alive when you eat it & stuff. I don't know, I have to read the books again so I can explain it to you and know what I'm saying. I'm not going to pretend I do, 'cause that bothers me  :tongue2:

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## undeadjellybean

> Is it just me that finds eating dead stuff less weird than eating living stuff .  If only celery could yell...



There was this guy at Yahoo Answers who asked why veggies talked to him. He swore he had heard lettuce screaming XD

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## undeadjellybean

> I dont have anything against vegitarians. It has some practicle reasons. I dont like it when Christians are vegitarians for the reason that they feel bad for the animals. God put them here to be eatin. From a Christian perspective they dont have souls so it dosn't matter if you kill them they are just as alive as any plant. and is prety important for a balanced diet. plus it tastes good.



Have I heard this argument before. Well, I don't like it when Christians eat meat, because from my p.o.v. animals have souls and pain and feelings. They are precious and sacred to me. I'd like to read the passages of the bible that refer to eating, might you have some of them? Just wondering. Anyways, all to their opinions, the only thing that disturbs me is that animals are being murdered every day to satisfy some people's wants.

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## undeadjellybean

> Would you eat jellyfish?



My two cents: (Actually, no. If opinions were money, politics would care more about them)
My philosophy is that I'm not eating any living thing that's not necessary. Why kill when life is so precious? Feel the heart beat of an animal or see into its eyes. I don't know how you can kill it when you feel that life.

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## undeadjellybean

> It's because of this that I tried to go veggie before. But I'd done no research on a proper diet and made myself sick...
> 
> Sorry if this was covered before, I was lightly skimming the thread before logging to finish my work reports...
> 
> Anyone currently veggie live with a partner, or generally do the majority of the cooking in their household... do you cook for meat-eaters in your life? What's your practices on cooking for two different diets? Just add meat to whatever it is you made, after you serve your own plate first?
> 
> Further to that, what about the personal ethics side of things? I'm going veggie because of many reasons, one of them being the animal cruelty... but my BF is strictly never going to see things the way I do. So whether I don't eat it or not, I still have to cook with it.



I live with me mom, and even though she sometimes claims she's vegetarian (which makes me angry a bit) she eats meat occasionally. But when my brother lived here she used to cook two meals, one for him and one for me. Yes, at first it's hard to go veggie when you live with a meat-eater, that's actually why I haven't gone raw yet. But, eventually it will be normal. Ask your bf if he can cook for himself, as a way to support you.

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## undeadjellybean

> There are several good reasons to do the research. It's not difficult to find good information on the 
> arguments for a vegetarian diet and also how to pursuit a healthy one. There are literally tons. 
> And you should definitely try to be healthy as a top priority. 
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't cook with meat. So if I cook for friends and family, it's always strictly vegetarian 
> and so far noone I cooked for has complained. But if you are ok with it, I don't think it would be very 
> difficult to just simultaneously cook a vegetarian meal and a meat-based one. You can always just 
> add the meat later or serve it on an extra plate, so everyone can just pick whatever they want to eat. 
> 
> ...




True, for me it's never an option to cook meat. Nope, my friends will have to eat vegetarian if I'm cooking, but everybody compliments my food actually  :tongue2:

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## undeadjellybean

> Lol this is the argument my parents use every day. Maybe all Christians don't have the same "soul viewpoint" as you do. Or maybe they do it for different reasons.
> 
> 
> Anyway, my family is huge on meat eating, in fact after a year of vegetarianism, my family still insists on offering me food or even trying to sneak in meat to meals. I'm really surrounded by meat, but I feel no desire to eat it. If your willpower/reasoning is strong enough, it'll be no problem. 
> 
> My only advice to people thinking about going veg is to LOOK UP THE FACTS. Don't just stop eating meat one day. That's dangerous. There's a lot of stuff you'll be lacking that you'll have to get in other ways.




Hahah, my family forgets I'm veggie. It annoyed me, but now I'm used to it.

Btw, I stopped eating meat at once and only got very low anemia. You can do that. Meat is NOT necessary. Go to an expert, yes. But no supplements needed! Lettuce has more calcium than milk. Some greens have more protein than meat. So make sure to take greens. Try green smoothies; they're very good.

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## undeadjellybean

> Why is it that all the greatest tasting foods aren't allowed??/



I beg to differ!
If you're a:
Vegetarian: you still get chocolate and cheese! YUM!
Vegan: peanut butter vegan cookies are GOOD
Raw: Fruit are HEAVENLY! Oranges, mangos, strawberries: proof that God exists!!

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## dajo

> Why is it that all the greatest tasting foods aren't allowed??/



I know what you mean, but you'd be surprised how many good things most people don't know. 

Anyone, who knew me before, would have never thought that I could go without meat and 
cheese. Well, after lots of research and looking for alternatives, I can say that the "transition" 
has been surprisingly easy. It's just become normal to me. But it depends on individual taste. 





> in fact after a year of vegetarianism, my family still insists on offering me food or even trying to sneak in meat to meals.



Uh, my parents would regret that. Thankfully they know better. 

(I heard/read about that from a number of other vegetarians, too)





> Feel the heart beat of an animal or see into its eyes.



I agree. It's a little conflicting, the way we attach ourselves to dogs and cats, yet 
attributing the same traits to a pig or a cow seem like too much of a stretch. Cute 
animals have a clear advantage.

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## Spartiate

> My two cents: (Actually, no. If opinions were money, politics would care more about them)
> My philosophy is that I'm not eating any living thing that's not necessary. Why kill when life is so precious? Feel the heart beat of an animal or see into its eyes. I don't know how you can kill it when you feel that life.



It's just a matter of exposure.  I've been exposed to nature in all its life and death since a very young age.  Why would a bear be able to eat meat but not humans, we're all in the same food chain.  I've also killed animals with my bare hands many, many times (mostly hunting, I'm not some animal torturer  :tongue2: ).  If anything I find that I have more respect and a better understanding of nature and animals than most since I often interact with them in their natural habitat.  Most vegetarians are city dwellers and never get directly involved with the local ecology.  People who spend a lot of time in the wild get used to death as a part of nature after seeing other animals rip each other to shreds so much.


P.S.  Use that button at the bottom right of a post to multi-quote instead of making an octuple post  :tongue2: ...

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## undeadjellybean

> It's just a matter of exposure.  I've been exposed to nature in all its life and death since a very young age.  Why would a bear be able to eat meat but not humans, we're all in the same food chain.  I've also killed animals with my bare hands many, many times (mostly hunting, I'm not some animal torturer ).  If anything I find that I have more respect and a better understanding of nature and animals than most since I often interact with them in their natural habitat.  Most vegetarians are city dwellers and never get directly involved with the local ecology.  People who spend a lot of time in the wild get used to death as a part of nature after seeing other animals rip each other to shreds so much.
> 
> 
> P.S.  Use that button at the bottom right of a post to multi-quote instead of making an octuple post ...



Well, bears don't have the same conscience we have. But anyways, it's different when you've hunted with your own bare hands and are close to nature. I respect your beliefs, and I don't think you're causing the suffering to animals like big corporations do.  I've seen meat-eaters saying vegetarians are "gay" (which isn't much of an insult but anyways). Well, let me just remind you: you buy your meat at the supermarket, just as I do my veggies.
I know I wouldn't be able to kill an animal, I just couldn't be able. I'm an EXTREMELY sensitive person, I must admit. 

P.S. which one?  :tongue2:

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## dajo

> It's just a matter of exposure.  I've been exposed to nature in all its life and death since a very young age.  Why would a bear be able to eat meat but not humans, we're all in the same food chain.  I've also killed animals with my bare hands many, many times (mostly hunting, I'm not some animal torturer ).  If anything I find that I have more respect and a better understanding of nature and animals than most since I often interact with them in their natural habitat.  Most vegetarians are city dwellers and never get directly involved with the local ecology.  People who spend a lot of time in the wild get used to death as a part of nature after seeing other animals rip each other to shreds so much.



I also agree that there are worlds apart between what you're doing and mass production. 

An interesting TED Talk on this matter and its urgency: 
http://www.ted.com/talks/mark_bittma...at_we_eat.html

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