# Off-Topic Discussion > The Lounge > Tech Talk >  >  UK Schools advised "Avoid Vista & Office '07 - Consider Linux & OpenOffice"

## Ynot

UK Schools advised "Avoid Vista & Office '07 - Consider Linux & OpenOffice"

Becta (the British Educational Communications and Technology Agency) has issued a report advising schools nationwide to avoid Microsoft Vista and Office 2007
and to seriously consider migration to Linux and OpenOffice

Write up from Information Week
http://www.informationweek.com/news/...leID=205602879

Becta Report (PDF)
http://learningandskills.becta.org.u...fm?resID=35275

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## Xox

While the schools I attend are trying their best to get it.  ::roll::  Yes, I live in America.

Jeezus - I want to get rid of my own Vista.  :Pissed:

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## Ynot

While this isn't the first time Linux has been suggested for UK Schools
(both as a learning aid in IT classrooms, and as serious workstations for staff)
it's the first high profile, national body to make the recommendation

earlier suggestions have been from lone schools, and organizations independent from the government
One round of free licenses from Microsoft has, to date. been enough to stop serious discussions from going ahead

I really hope this is a genuine drive for progress

but I'm a cynical man
so, we'll see

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## Daeva

I really hate office '07. The UI is so horrible and I didn't realize it at first, but it saves files as .docx, so I have to manually change it so it saves as .doc. Not difficult, but annoying none the less. Still, though, freaking hate that UI...

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## Grod

> I really hate office '07. The UI is so horrible and I didn't realize it at first, but it saves files as .docx, so I have to manually change it so it saves as .doc. Not difficult, but annoying none the less. Still, though, freaking hate that UI...



Why? ::?:

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## Daeva

Because it's no where near as simple as the former UI? Because it's clunky?

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## Grod

> Because it's no where near as simple as the former UI? Because it's clunky?



I find it's actually much simpler, and not "clunky", but meh.

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## Mes Tarrant

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Grod, in support of all the things the rest of us hate.  ::lol:: 

In all seriousness Grod, could you tell us why you love Vista?

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## Grod

> Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Grod, in support of all the things the rest of us hate. 
> 
> In all seriousness Grod, could you tell us why you love Vista?



It's the bestest thing, *evar*, evar.

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## Daeva

> It's the bestest thing, *evar*, evar.



I disagree.


My reasoning is as flawless as yours. ^_^

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## Pyrofan1

> It's the bestest thing, *evar*, evar.



it's obvious that vista's spell checker has failed again.

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## Jdeadevil

I'll admit installing XP would probably be better but my parants have this thing about deals so I'm kind of stuck with Vista now. But I'm not going to die, it's only a tiny bit worse so it's not going to kill me. :undecided

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## Mes Tarrant

> I'll admit installing XP would probably be better but my parants have this thing about deals



What do you mean?

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## Grod

> it's obvious that vista's spell checker has failed again.



Right now I'm using XP. ::roll::

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## Jdeadevil

> What do you mean?



Something about, if my dad pays £7.00 a month for a year or two, we get technical support. Which I kind of needed when I downloaded a bad file. I was foolish, I tried downloading a crack for CNC3. So I had to format my computer (Vista doesn't need a disk). This guy told me how to do it, so I find technical support a bit usefull for idiots like me.

But after I formatted after I typed in Jdeadevil as my username and all that stuff, I lost my CNC3 files and lost the disk. Looks like this cloud's lining was black making it rain even harder.

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## ~Erin~

> I really hate office '07. The UI is so horrible and I didn't realize it at first, but it saves files as .docx, so I have to manually change it so it saves as .doc. Not difficult, but annoying none the less. Still, though, freaking hate that UI...



ugh..I hate that too how they changed the save file name to .docx so no one with a lower version can open it. I think their idea was that everyone would buy the upgrade. Though, like you said it's not a big problem because you can change it.. if you remember too. Anway, still annoying

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## Mes Tarrant

> ugh..I hate that too how they changed the save file name to .docx so no one with a lower version can open it. I think their idea was that everyone would buy the upgrade. Though, like you said it's not a big problem because you can change it.. if you remember too. Anway, still annoying



It is SO annoying! I've spent so much time downloading upgrades on different computers so they would open my damn file.





> Something about, if my dad pays £7.00 a month for a year or two, we get technical support. Which I kind of needed when I downloaded a bad file. I was foolish, I tried downloading a crack for CNC3. So I had to format my computer (Vista doesn't need a disk). This guy told me how to do it, so I find technical support a bit usefull for idiots like me.
> 
> But after I formatted after I typed in Jdeadevil as my username and all that stuff, I lost my CNC3 files and lost the disk. Looks like this cloud's lining was black making it rain even harder.



What would you have to pay per month for technical support for XP? Also, have you played games yet on your computer, and if so, have you had any issues?

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## Daeva

> It is SO annoying! I've spent so much time downloading upgrades on different computers so they would open my damn file.



You downloaded upgrades for it? :S

I just save them all as .doc so that not only can I open them, but so can everyone else. I was pretty pissed when I found out others couldn't open it. Damn you MS!  :Sad:

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## Mes Tarrant

> You downloaded upgrades for it? :S
> 
> I just save them all as .doc so that not only can I open them, but so can everyone else. I was pretty pissed when I found out others couldn't open it. Damn you MS!



You know, like the thing you have to download off of their website if the computer you're using has an older version of office.

I actually didn't realize you could just manually save them as .doc.  :Oops:  Oh well, now I know.

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## Daeva

> You know, like the thing you have to download off of their website if the computer you're using has an older version of office.
> 
> I actually didn't realize you could just manually save them as .doc.  Oh well, now I know.



Yeah, when you manually save it as a .doc it calls it "Compatibility mode" They should have made .docx compatible!

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## Jdeadevil

> What would you have to pay per month for technical support for XP? Also, have you played games yet on your computer, and if so, have you had any issues?



Yeah, normal games that I _know_ will work on the computer work better than expected, yet my keyboard doesn't work with StepMania/FFR (idiot machinary makers).

Yet on CNC3, the volume seems to screach a tiny bit after it exeeds a limit.

And I don't know about technical support for XP.

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## ~Erin~

> It is SO annoying! I've spent so much time downloading upgrades on different computers so they would open my damn file.



Aw, I had to do the same thing. It's a bitch.  Though, that was before I knew about the changing of the file name within the program *twitches*

Though, I do remember reading somewhere online that beacuse of all the complaints and such they had this file thing that you could download which would open the file for the other person? wait.. maybe that was with the power point .docx file? ugh.. well something like that.

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## Ynot

changing the file formats is the only reason most upgrade at all

If the file formats stayed the same
everybody would still be using Office '97

There really is not ONE justifiable reason for upgrading a word processor
There have been no new features (useful, non-gimmicky ones) in any word processor from any software company for 10 years or more

Ok, I'll give you online collaboration
but that's about it

A letter is a letter
it was a letter in 1997 and will be a letter in 2017

It's called the "Upgrade Treadmill"
One upgrades, so the rest have to upgrade to stay compatible
and it's MS's main source of revenue

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## Grod

> changing the file formats is the only reason most upgrade at all
> 
> If the file formats stayed the same
> everybody would still be using Office '97
> 
> There really is not ONE justifiable reason for upgrading a word processor
> There have been no new features (useful, non-gimmicky ones) in any word processor from any software company for 10 years or more
> 
> Ok, I'll give you online collaboration
> ...



Exactly why I love Microsoft

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## Daeva

So while on the topic of Office '07, who here can tell me how to get it to change the default setting of double spacing? I've been trying to figure it out since I got it o_O

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## Mes Tarrant

> So while on the topic of Office '07, who here can tell me how to get it to change the default setting of double spacing? I've been trying to figure it out since I got it o_O



I had that same problem. Wait one second...

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## Ynot

> Exactly why I love Microsoft



what,
because through necessity they make you buy the same program (but using a different data file format) again and again
throwing in a half-dozen "new features" that nobody ever uses anyway....

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## Daeva

> what,
> because through necessity they make you buy the same program (but using a different data file format) again and again
> throwing in a half-dozen "new features" that nobody ever uses anyway....



One thing on the '07 that I really do like is being able to right-click and select the definition of a word. That helps cut down a bit of time that I used to have to spend in online dictionaries. Also, the spell-checker is a lot better with grammar this time around which I like.

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## Mes Tarrant

Daeva, to under "paragraph" and click the "line spacing" icon. Then click (or unclick, really) "add space after paragraph." 

However, I'm not sure if it will go back to the default once you reopen word.  ::?:  Don't know how to change it permanently...

One office product I genuinely enjoy is OneNote 2007. I use it for class quite often.

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## Grod

> what,
> because through necessity they make you buy the same program (but using a different data file format) again and again
> throwing in a half-dozen "new features" that nobody ever uses anyway....



I was being sarcastic

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## Ynot

> One thing on the '07 that I really do like is being able to right-click and select the definition of a word. That helps cut down a bit of time that I used to have to spend in online dictionaries. Also, the spell-checker is a lot better with grammar this time around which I like.



Yeah, fine
but that's a feature of the user interface
not of the file format

that feature in no way impacts on the saved file
hence there's no reason for it to "break" the previous file format

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## Daeva

> Daeva, to under "paragraph" and click the "line spacing" icon. Then click (or unclick, really) "add space after paragraph." 
> 
> However, I'm not sure if it will go back to the default once you reopen word.  Don't know how to change it permanently...
> 
> One office product I genuinely enjoy is OneNote 2007. I use it for class quite often.



Thank you. It's so fantastic to have a story in a normal format.

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## Xox

> Daeva, to under "paragraph" and click the "line spacing" icon. Then click (or unclick, really) "add space after paragraph." 
> 
> However, I'm not sure if it will go back to the default once you reopen word.  Don't know how to change it permanently...
> 
> One office product I genuinely enjoy is OneNote 2007. I use it for class quite often.



Thanks a lot Mes. I've been wondering how to do that as well. >:{

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## Identity X

I liked the Office 2007 UI. And, I enjoyed using it when writing the first (and likely the next two) sections of my dissertation. Why? It's about the only word processor, ignoring plain LaTeX/BibTeX, with a decent bibliography manager. Writing a bibilography in Office 2003 or OpenOffice is just horrible. 

Other than that, Open/StarOffice is generally a comfortable choice rather than buying anything. And of course, I should really be writing my dissertation in LaTeX.

And on the subject, TeXmacs is a brilliant piece of software. It's pretty much a word processor for TeX and the output is of a similarly high quality.

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## Grod

I got two copies for free.

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## ninja9578

Wow, that's the first time I've ever seen Linux recommended for schools (other than computer science departments.)  My school tried loading Vista on four of the computers in the computer labs, but no one knew how to use it so they removed it.  Our computer science department has had a Linux and Sun lab for a long time now, but this semester are replacing both with high end Macs.  I could see Linux being difficult for the average person to figure out.

As for OpenOffice.org... uhg.  I don't like it because it's slow (it's got Java code in it) and I think the interface is just as bad as the old MS Office, it seems to emulate that UI.  I never understood this:  Why does each window in OOo have it's own menu bar?  I can't stand that, it looks way to cluttered.  For Windows they have to, but not Linux and Mac.  There are better alternatives:  Corel Word Perfect has ports to all OSs.

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## Ynot

I think it's more to do with open standards, rather than interface and general usability

For a long time, kids from poorer families have been stuck in a limbo
they can't do homework on their family computer because of incompatible software, and it's not feasible for dad to buy the latest Office package (which may or may not work with the 3-year-old family PC)
They end up having to use the school machines after hours.

Yes, OOo's interface isn't superb (it's not bad, but there's certainly improvements to be done)

Developers have no design taste
it's an old joke, but is more often than not, true

hopefully, the surge in popularity for OOo will bring with it new people (artists, graphic designers, etc.) and usability can be given the focus it needs


*edit*
Oh, and Ident-X
http://bibliographic.openoffice.org/

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## ninja9578

I read once (I forget where) that Microsoft bragged that they got requests for Office all the time for features that they had already incorporated.  They said that this demonstrated just how feature rich the package was.  To us iWork people we just thought that it showed how poorly designed the interface was that these users couldn't find the features.  (Anyone using advanced features wouldn't be a Joe Shmo so it wasn't from ignorance.)





> Developers have no design taste



Agreed.  My concentration is software engineering, but all of my comp-sci electives have been graphics and design.  My software always looks and works much better than anyone elses in my classes.

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## Ynot

my stuff works well, technical wise
All inputs checked and sanitized, minimal bugs and logical modular designs for components

but they look like arse

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## Grod

Mac OSX is the best for schools. They don't need to upgrade to Vista.

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## Ynot

> Mac OSX is the best for schools. They don't need to upgrade to Vista.



give this guy 10/10 for sheer persistence
you can't fault him on that

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## Grod

> give this guy 10/10 for sheer persistence
> you can't fault him on that



I wasn't commending Vista or MS Office.... 

I think Mac's are the best for schools. It's generally the simplest. Linux or MS is not really needed.

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## Jdeadevil

My school had Macs!

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## Mes Tarrant

My university takes it upon itself to upgrade to the newest everything as soon as possible. It has the new office, but not a single computer has Vista. There are a few Linux machines, but the clear winner these days seems to be the Mac. Why exactly is Linux too difficult for the average user, or is that just simply the excuse people use?

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## ninja9578

It's just so different.  If you know how to use it it's not that bad (I use it) it's just that setting things up is difficult.  The synopsis package manager is nice, but anything not included in that has to be compiled and added with a bunch of sudo commands.  That's difficult for even technical users.  Using it is fairly easy for everything that you would use a Mac for.

My school had the new Office too and I pushed for them to leave some computers with the old Office and they eventually did.

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## Grod

> My school had Macs!



Yeah, I think every school has Macs for some reason.

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## ninja9578

Actually, I'd bet that the Macs that they are replacing the Suns with will have Vista on them.  I haven't been told that, but that seems like something my university would do.

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## Grod

> Actually, I'd bet that the Macs that they are replacing the Suns with will have Vista on them.  I haven't been told that, but that seems like something my university would do.



Ok.

I was talking about elementary - High School, I would think colleges would have a mix of OS's.

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## ninja9578

You'd think they'd have both (Mac and PC) too.  They should learn what they will need later in life.  Different professions are dominated by different types of computers.  I remember when I was in elementary school there was a Mac lab and a lab of Apple IIs.  Ah the Apple IIs, I loved Oregon Trail and Dyno Park Tycoon  :smiley:

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## Grod

> You'd think they'd have both (Mac and PC) too. They should learn what they will need later in life. Different professions are dominated by different types of computers. I remember when I was in elementary school there was a Mac lab and a lab of Apple IIs. Ah the Apple IIs, I loved Oregon Trail and Dyno Park Tycoon



Linux has died of dysentry.

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## ninja9578

::lmao::

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## arby

The microsoft office suite decided to disable itself 1 month after I bought this computer and it was probably the best thing that Vista's ever done for me.

<3 open office.

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## zazeNate

I installed Ubuntu on this laptop that I got over a year ago for school and I really like using it, except I can't get the internal wireless card to work and I also have a sound issue (it's barely audible).  So, alas, I'm still using XP and Office '03, which I know better than OpenOffice anyway, so meh, whatever.

Now, on a desktop I don't see any reason in the world to not have a dual-boot Linux/Windows machine.  Linux just runs so much easier/quicker/everything, so much easier.  Two desktops in the house with a dual boot setup (and for the record, one dual boot laptop, 2 other laptops with XP and Vista).

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## Sornaensis

Grod loves Vista because it makes everyone else mad because we all hate it and he gets a rush from it.

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## Xaqaria

From what I've seen and heard, Vista seems a lot like Windows ME. It Seems like another attempt by Microsoft to introduce new technology before it is actually ready simply to make money and appease their stock holders.

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## ninja9578

Very little in Vista is new technology.  Most of it is technology that Apple created a long time ago, MS is just having trouble emulating it.

I think Grod is Steve Balmer.

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## Sornaensis

> Very little in Vista is new technology.  Most of it is technology that Apple created a long time ago, MS is just having trouble emulating it.



Rofflecakes.

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## S4ndm4n

I'm happy with XP   ::D:

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## Grod

> Grod loves Vista because it makes everyone else mad because we all hate it and he gets a rush from it.







> I think Grod is Steve Balmer.



You all love to talk about me, don't you. :smiley:

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## WaterSquirrel

Hmm. Anyone actually going to talk about linux and oo?
I use both, and I have abiword on my USB stick for use at school. I'm writing a book with an oo user so I save the files as .odt

Oh, and WinXP takes about 2 minutes from to boot up and login, and finish loading apps, Ubuntu with Compiz takes about 20 seconds ^_^

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## ninja9578

OOo has a lot of java in it so it's fairly slow.  I much prefer iWork to OOo, but I'd much rather use OOo than word.  Remember that we are technical users though, our word processors work better, but have a steeper learning curve.  With word you can just type and it works fine.  The really complicated things that are impossible to use in Word don't get used very often.

I've recently started using LaTeX.  It's far better than any other word processor, but has a learning curve like that of C.

You can take all the useless crap off of XP and it cuts down the boot time considerably.  Even so, it's still much slower than OSX, which is slower than Linux.

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## Grod

So the main advantage in having Linux is booting fast? ::wtf::

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## ninja9578

No, that's just a perk.  The main advantage is stability, no registry, low footprint, synapsis manager, no obsolete files.

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## Grod

What does a registry actually do...?

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## ninja9578

I thought you were a technical user?   :tongue2: 

The registry is that thing where Windows stores metadata about most of it's files as well as preferences for each program.  It is only accessed by the OS itself or special programs that require you to go into *whatever the Windows equivalent to a -su is* mode.  

The problem is that Microsoft can't seem to figure out how to keep it clean.  Whenever a file is deleted, the meta data is not removed.  The longer you go without paying for a program to clean it, the slower your computer gets.  

Program files are deleted on a proper uninstall, but then it leaves gaps.  Next time a registry entry is made it's fragmented.  There is no way to defragment the registry, it has to be done at boot time and even specialized program have to.

Linux and OSX don't have a registry, they use a Keychain, which is much smaller and easy to keep clean.

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## Ne-yo

I miss tech talk.

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## Grod

I have lots of knowledge on different computer aspects, but seemingly random sections I'll be completely ignorant about. :tongue2: 

Thanks. :tongue2:

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## Ynot

> Linux and OSX don't have a registry, they use a Keychain, which is much smaller and easy to keep clean.



What?
most *nix apps use config files

Keychains (as far as I know) are just password management apps

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## ninja9578

I can't speak for Linux because I haven't studied how it works, but OSX's keychain does store passwords and security features, but also configuration data about certain aspects of the program.  It's not as in depth as the registry on Windows, most OSX configurations for programs go into the app packages themselves.

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## Replicon

The registry is also a single point of failure. It's a single file which, if it gets corrupted, can ruin every piece of software you've installed, as well as your OS in general.

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