# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity >  >  Lucid dreaming without methods of induction. Instant?

## atkins513

The discussion I want to bring up here is the discovery that a dream state was triggered by light rapidly flashing onto the closed eyelids of a man (Brion Gysin) while on a train. Sunlight supposedly flashed through the window as he passed tree's, buildings, and other objects, and while he was fully awake, he had a full 3d vivid experience. The man then created a lamp and shade system that recreated flashing lights at a certain frequency and was said that this triggered the vivid life experience, that we today know of as Lucid Dreaming. 

"He built the Dreamachine in 1961. Described as "the first art object to be seen with the eyes closed",[12] the flicker device uses alpha waves in the 8-16 Hz range to produce a change of consciousness in receptive viewers."

------
Watch information about it here.











The news story above shows a very fast flashing light imitating this and the news anchor seems to have some incredible experience from it. This is not an advertisement for the link in the video as I have heard the company involved may be unreliable.

What is this? Is this something anyone has experimented with or used? Is it the same as a real life wild or even something worth experimenting further with?

A search in these forums for Brion Gysin turned up nothing of signifigance so I thought this may be worth our discussion here. 

There is a free version of this machine via website to be used with a laptop or computer. Using it I get weird visualizations, but have never tried it more than a minute or two.. also.. I read that the lights have to be very bright and that a computer probably cannot re-create the effect so I don't count on this as a test but more as a light example.

THE ONLINE DREAM MACHINE

After reading all the information above, what do you think?
*Anyone have any experience with this?*

----------


## mcwillis

Interesting.  Im going to try the online version in a minute  :smiley:

----------


## atkins513

> Interesting.  Im going to try the online version in a minute



When you do in pitch blackness it has an interesting sensation to it.. 
You can almost see how if it was much brighter you might actually get something from it.

----------


## mcwillis

> When you do in pitch blackness it has an interesting sensation to it.. 
> You can almost see how if it was much brighter you might actually get something from it.



The brightness isn't strong and it's a shame that it stops and starts at times outside of its supposed operating frequency.  I didn't experience anything unusual.

----------


## atkins513

yea, when i did it at night, in pitch blackness, using my 54 inch big screen tv as my monitor sitting close to it.. the sensation was wierd and it felt much like i was having Hypnogogic Imagery.. So I wonder if this is something that can induce wild using very bright light source or led.

----------


## mcwillis

Hyper Bright Light Emitting Diodes and a simple oscillating timer might do the trick.

----------


## mcwillis

Have you found any research on frequencies yet?

----------


## atkins513

Yes, if you search brion gyson, the guy who invented this supposed machine, he supposedly figured out the best frequencies, although I have read the dreaming frequency is 8mhz or something.. further research needs to be done.. but the flashing running at the accurate frequency supposedly puts your brain into dreaming state very fast, inducting a wild. I dunno, its all hypothesis so far...

----------


## mcwillis

His website is sparse to say the least.  Others must have played about with this but as its not mainstream it may only work for a few rare individuals like it would induce epilepsy in a tiny amount of people.  I'm going to have a hunt and I am pricing up the components right now to make a circuit board that will fit in my old rem dreamer mask but using standard LED's and a simple '555' IC timer.

----------


## atkins513

Well doesn't one of the new Dream style masks have the option to do exactly what we are talking about? pulsing lights continuously at a frequency set by you?

----------


## faceonmars

Anything is possible but my feeling is that it would do nothing but irritate me. It might be akin to those glasses 'they' sell that produces flashing red lights when you fall asleep (and enter REM) to remind the dreamer they are in a dream.  :Shades wink:

----------


## atkins513

Well, yes and no. Those "glasses" masks you are talking about are supposed to flash after you have fallen asleep.. What I am discussing is said to put you into dream state with no prior work. Just put on the masks and the high speed strobe timed to the brains sleep frequency puts you into lucid dreamland. Now this is all hypothetical hence why we are discussing it  :smiley:

----------


## mcwillis

> Well doesn't one of the new Dream style masks have the option to do exactly what we are talking about? pulsing lights continuously at a frequency set by you?



I looked for the nova dreamer pro as mentioned in the film and I can't find one.  The one in that vid may just be a regular LD'ing mask.

----------


## atkins513

Im still looking for information on this.. are we going to have to build one of the generic ones using a lamp to test the effect lol

----------


## mcwillis

Ive spent an hour looking around and a few reports of visuals but no lucid dreams yet.

I can make a mask device for a few pounds.  I would like to experience the visuals if nothing else.

----------


## atkins513

probably.. i have seen many howtos on the internet for do it yourself lucid dreaming masks that use leds, and they are all no more than 5$us 

we have to test this theory until we have an answer...

----------


## mcwillis

Ive read that the visuals are quite amazing and can take up to fifteen minutes to fully develop and at a frequency that is suitable to one's brain.  I have read elsewhere of someone using alpha frequencies using auditory brainwave entrainment and had the same effect but it took over an hour.

----------


## changed

I have seen this before.  I don't know much about it, but I know it is supposed to cause visuals.  I will keep my eye on this thread...

----------


## atkins513

This is definitely something we need to look more into, for instance, what if when used with wbtb it has close to 100 percent success rate after only a few minutes.. or when used in the early morning without going back to sleep.. so many options.. and this is something i have wanted to explore for a while...

----------


## mcwillis

Lets say for example it can be used to develop fantastic visuals in fifteen minutes and the mask automatically turns off and see if the visuals can be worked with to induce a WILD as you say Atkins with a WBTB?

----------


## atkins513

Possibly, there are lots of options if this is genuine. Wonder how come no one else is paying any attention to this post at all? lol

----------


## mcwillis

Dunno, Ive always liked gadgets.  I made my first lucid dream machine in 1986.  Just grabs my attention, that's why I'm here.  I don't expect this to work but one of Gysin's friends played around with this for years and his results were displayed in a journal in the 60's I think.  Im going to get some veroboard and put a simple oscillating timer on it with a couple of white LED's.  I'll have a switch for frquencies from 8 to 13 Hz and a dimmer for the LED's to get the right brightness.  Then I'll stick the board in the pouch that is on my lucid dreaming mask that is in my drawer.  Looks like it's going to get some use after all !!!

----------


## atkins513

lol.. let me know how it works out. How long will it take you to make it?

----------


## mcwillis

Ive been looking up on it and my gadget would create square wave pulses, not good as that can cause seizures, but I don't think Im susceptible but to be on the safeside It might be wise for me to make a sine wave generator.  That may take me a little research but hopefully by the weekend I reckon  :smiley:

----------


## atkins513

ok cool... let me know, meanwhile ill keep researching this and some other things

----------


## Raspberry

This is an interesting thread! I'd love to help, but unfortunatly I know nothing about dream masks, LEDs, pulses, waves, all the stuff you guys are discussing... But good job so far!  :smiley:

----------


## mcwillis

:smiley:  Ive designed my cirucit board and off to get the components tomorrow.  I love gadgets and looking forward to play with it.  People say that the visuals are awesome.

----------


## mcwillis

*Strobe Light and Dream Machine Tidbits:*

Department of transport guidelines say that trees planted alongside motorways must not be of uniform distance apart as drowsiness, nausea and 'motorway madness' ensue.

A security agency has tested strobe lights as part of crowd control and can cause epilieptic  fits in approximately 1 in 4 people.

February 15th 1960 Ian Sommerville had a lucid dream with a homemade dream machine.

A friend of Brion described a journey to another planet complete with aliens.

Electronics giant Philips sniffed around for patent posibilities but rejected the dream machine as they were only interested if it made people go to sleep.

----------


## mcwillis

From Gysin's plans I have calculated that Gysin & Sommerville's dream machine had a strobe frequency of 10.4 Hz

This would explain why the online version default is 10 Hz

----------


## atkins513

Great work Mcwillis... I wish I could help you with this but the only help I've been able to bring was re-livening the concept lol... Let me know how its working out..

----------


## Moto

It may be something as simple as brain entrainment, but, via more systems than just visual.  It would also activate sensory neurons of skin tuned for photon reception.  I bet that natural sunlight was the best for all around sensory input, and thus brain entrainment.  Def need to research this a bit more.  I'll see if I can make some sort of box to put over my face, and then make some sort of device to flicker the sun light.  I'll also make some sort of led machine to( I got a little time on my hand) and I know a lil about brain entrainment too, so I'll see what I can do( give me a couple weeks).

----------


## atkins513

Ok cool, between Moto and Mcwillis we should be getting some testing on the way  :smiley:

----------


## mcwillis

> It may be something as simple as brain entrainment, but, via more systems than just visual.  It would also activate sensory neurons of skin tuned for photon reception.  I bet that natural sunlight was the best for all around sensory input, and thus brain entrainment.  Def need to research this a bit more.  I'll see if I can make some sort of box to put over my face, and then make some sort of device to flicker the sun light.  I'll also make some sort of led machine to( I got a little time on my hand) and I know a lil about brain entrainment too, so I'll see what I can do( give me a couple weeks).



Ive looked into auditory entrainment in the past and its nowhere near as fast and effective as visual from what I have researched recently into the visual side.  Shamans have been known to use their fingers against the sun to create the strobe effect.  Look forward to comparing results  :smiley:

----------


## atkins513

This thread is really developing fast. I can't wait to see some results.

----------


## mcwillis

From what I have researched so far I will probably only experience hypnogogic imagery.  Now some people say that they see faces after the geometric patterns.  I am initially going to let it run for 15 minutes before it switches itself off.  I am hoping it will provide me with enough stable imagery to be able to use Nick Newport's guaranteed 'containment and spinning' method from lucidology 102 to suck me into a lucid dream.

----------


## atkins513

yes that would rock.. keep me posted and where do yo live? Maybe after you test it thoroughly you can send it to me so i can try it and send it back. It may or may not work for everyone so it would be good to have 2 people test it. If we did this, there is a way i could give you a deposit or something if you wanted... let me know how it works..

----------


## mcwillis

If it works I won't let it out of my sight for a little while  :Bliss: 

If it does work well with Nick's method with the visuals I can make you a circuit board and then you would have to make a sleep mask to house it.

----------


## atkins513

Awesome, that works for me as well  :smiley:  I can't wait til we see how this goes.. personally I think the flashing at the brains naturally frequency of sleep may work wonderful for Wilding and with Vilding, and probably even Filding as well... I cant wait to see more...

----------


## dark_grimmjow

This all sounds interesting and promising. If this flashing led face mask works really well, wouldn't it be even better if we could get auditory entrainment synced with the flashing so that both are at the same frequency. I think that would speed up the development of the imagery and maybe intensify the effect. I hope the led light mask proves successful!

----------


## mcwillis

I did find a resource page about using different coloured light and white seems the best for this.  I have looked into a combo and I don't see adding it would make a significant difference.

----------


## atkins513

> I did find a resource page about using different coloured light and white seems the best for this.  I have looked into a combo and I don't see adding it would make a significant difference.



that seems to fall in line with what I have read as well... light on the eyes is supposed to be much more effective than sound.

----------


## mcwillis

Atkins,

I have had to send away for a couple of components.  I need ones that have a high tolerance of accuracy as I don't have an oscilloscope to test the frequency of my circuit board.  There isn't much point buying a capacitor with a possible +/- 20% tolerance so I have had to send away for a capacitor with a much higher accurate capacitance.  So when it is made I will PM you a cost of parts and then if you send me the money via paypal I will make the circuit board and ship it to you  :smiley:   Im also going to leave a tutorial here on how to make one for any budding soldering iron ninja's !!

----------


## mcwillis

> This is an interesting thread! I'd love to help, but unfortunatly I know nothing about dream masks, LEDs, pulses, waves, all the stuff you guys are discussing... But good job so far!



Ive had an idea of housing the flashing lights in a pair of goggles.  If you like I can make you a circuit board and put it into goggles for you if you pay for the parts.  That way you can help by telling your experiences.  Obviously I will only make a few if people are interested.

----------


## atkins513

Yea. let me know cost of parts and we'll go from there.

----------


## atkins513

> Atkins,
> 
> I have had to send away for a couple of components.  I need ones that have a high tolerance of accuracy as I don't have an oscilloscope to test the frequency of my circuit board.  There isn't much point buying a capacitor with a possible +/- 20% tolerance so I have had to send away for a capacitor with a much higher accurate capacitance.  So when it is made I will PM you a cost of parts and then if you send me the money via paypal I will make the circuit board and ship it to you   Im also going to leave a tutorial here on how to make one for any budding soldering iron ninja's !!




LoL thanks, but I think we should figure out if this gives any worthwhile effects before making a tutorial lol... I really do have great hope for this but we will see  :smiley: 

One other thing. Have you ever heard of the god helmet? lol

----------


## mcwillis

> LoL thanks, but I think we should figure out if this gives any worthwhile effects before making a tutorial lol... I really do have great hope for this but we will see



Good point.  It would help if it did work!!





> One other thing. Have you ever heard of the god helmet? lol



I think I saw someone talk about it here but under a different name and it didn't do much for them.

----------


## atkins513

eh its interesting but its where a guy made a helmet with electrodes that stimulate a particular part of the head/brain, and these subjects are in a pitch dark room. He stimulates this part of the brain for about 3-5 minutes very lightly and they have vivid visions. Usually visions of talking to god or a past on loved one.. I just thought it was interesting when i saw it, because it seems to me he is sparking lucidity but that isnt anything I want to be playing around with.. im fine with lights in the eyes, but electrical current on the brain is another beast im not willing to tackle lol

----------


## mcwillis

P290111_22.34.jpg

Built my dream machine and it works well.  The frequency should be about 10 Hz.  The white LED's are in the bottom corners.  Sorry for the quality of the photo.  My phone has a poor camera which I rarely use.  I have tried it for two minutes.  Started seeing multicoloured globules of various colours of the rainbow.  Definately has an effect.  I need to house it in the mask properly and make sure I don't have any possible electrical shorts in the mask as the LED's started to exhibit glitches and it was fine again after I removed it from the mask.  I will give it a proper whirl before going to sleep  tonight.  Joy...

----------


## mcwillis

Found out the reason for the glitches.  The NE555 timer chip is over heating inside the mask.  I will have to make a heatsink for it.  Damn, now I know why prototypes are called prototypes !!

----------


## BlueWalls

Hey guys, watch this guy speak about his experiences with the Nova Dreamer dream-mask. Quite interesting...

YouTube - Lucid Dreaming #11 - Lucid Dream Induction Devices

----------


## atkins513

> Hey guys, watch this guy speak about his experiences with the Nova Dreamer dream-mask. Quite interesting...
> 
> YouTube - Lucid Dreaming #11 - Lucid Dream Induction Devices



I'm gonna check out the video... and Mcwillis tell us about your experience so far  :smiley:

----------


## anderj101

> Found out the reason for the glitches.  The NE555 timer chip is over heating inside the mask.  I will have to make a heatsink for it.  Damn, now I know why prototypes are called prototypes !!



Use a couple of small FETs to drive the LEDs instead of driving them directly from the 555.  With the FETs you can parallel a couple of LEDs for increased light output also, and the current sink will be greatly reduced on the 555.

----------


## atkins513

results results results lol.. tell us why you've been enjoying it so much  :smiley:

----------


## Shadow27

This is quite intriguing I'll definitely have to play around with this.
How long did he say it should take? 15 minutes?

----------


## atkins513

> This is quite intriguing I'll definitely have to play around with this.
> How long did he say it should take? 15 minutes?



I actually don't know, maybe faster, hopefully...
btw, your signature is pretty cool shadow.. especially the "are you dreaming"

----------


## mcwillis

> Use a couple of small FETs to drive the LEDs instead of driving them directly from the 555.  With the FETs you can parallel a couple of LEDs for increased light output also, and the current sink will be greatly reduced on the 555.



Of course, thanks.  Each LED is drawing 30 mA and they are in series as it is better to do it that way from what I have read so I'll run the clock signal from the chip into  a suitable NPN transistor to drive the LED's

----------


## atkins513

> Of course, thanks.  Each LED is drawing 30 mA and they are in series as it is better to do it that way from what I have read so I'll run the clock signal from the chip into  a suitable NPN transistor to drive the LED's



Great  :smiley:  So when this thing is working, what kind of results are you seeing? if any yet

----------


## mcwillis

> results results results lol.. tell us why you've been enjoying it so much



I found that if I moved the LED's slightly off my line of sight I had better results.  I started seeing lots of very thin, short lines of light in all directions and lots of different colours.  I think this is the start of the geometric patterns people talk about.  I sometimes see these lines of light as natural hypnogogic visuals.  I need to add a transistor to my circuit as it was too much of a nuisance holding the circuit board as it was overheating too much in the sleep mask.  Once I have added the transistor the overheating issue will be resolved and I can do a proper experiment using the mask.

----------


## Shadow27

> I actually don't know, maybe faster, hopefully...
> btw, your signature is pretty cool shadow.. especially the "are you dreaming"



 ::D: 

I'd just like to say I did see some stuff after trying that online dreammachine thing.
I saw some shapes and such, nothing special. Really just kinda like the stuff you see
after those youtube videos of hypnosis wheels. Just thought I'd report it anyway.

btw the original machine in that video reminds me of a zoetrope  :tongue2:

----------


## atkins513

> I found that if I moved the LED's slightly off my line of sight I had better results.  I started seeing lots of very thin, short lines of light in all directions and lots of different colours.  I think this is the start of the geometric patterns people talk about.  I sometimes see these lines of light as natural hypnogogic visuals.  I need to add a transistor to my circuit as it was too much of a nuisance holding the circuit board as it was overheating too much in the sleep mask.  Once I have added the transistor the overheating issue will be resolved and I can do a proper experiment using the mask.



Great, how long before you have a working prototype? today?

----------


## mcwillis

> Great, how long before you have a working prototype? today?



Tomorrow.  I also felt odd brain sensations that I have never experienced before.

----------


## atkins513

> Tomorrow.  I also felt odd brain sensations that I have never experienced before.



thats interesting.. I think we are gonna get good results with this

----------


## imj

I have experimented with light through closed eyelids but not with that speed. I think it would either disturb sleep or you just fall into sleep and dream normally and when you awaken your dream recall would be adversely affected because leaving the flickering light on like that would surely disturb stage 2 sleep or maybe even wake you up before REM because stage 2 is very sensitive to light or sound so any change would cause awakening. And if it did work the REM dreamer would not be made it would be easier to use the above idea.

IMJ

----------


## mcwillis

> I have experimented with light through closed eyelids but not with that speed. I think it would either disturb sleep or you just fall into sleep and dream normally and when you awaken your dream recall would be adversely affected because leaving the flickering light on like that would surely disturb stage 2 sleep or maybe even wake you up before REM because stage 2 is very sensitive to light or sound so any change would cause awakening. And if it did work the REM dreamer would not be made it would be easier to use the above idea.
> 
> IMJ



The Gysin dream machine is designed to induce WILD's.

----------


## imj

> I found that if I moved the LED's slightly off my line of sight I had better results.  I started seeing lots of very thin, short lines of light in all directions and lots of different colours.  I think this is the start of the geometric patterns people talk about.  I sometimes see these lines of light as natural hypnogogic visuals.  I need to add a transistor to my circuit as it was too much of a nuisance holding the circuit board as it was overheating too much in the sleep mask.  Once I have added the transistor the overheating issue will be resolved and I can do a proper experiment using the mask.



Great light show...but makes me think will it get far enough to REM stage? I think we are forgetting stages 2, 3 and 4. My feeling tells me you will loose everything by the time your mind hits stage 2 that's because at stage 2 your mind registers nothing visual nor will it respond to anything except wake up when it detects disturbance. So you could be oscillating between going back to sleep and waking up at stage 2...sounds like alot of dreamless sleep to me. Even for morning WILD's there's at least stage 2. If you WILD on your own it's less likely you will awaken at stage 2.

IMJ

----------


## atkins513

well what we are thinking is with WBTB it could be perfect.

----------


## mcwillis

> Great light show...but makes me think will it get far enough to REM stage? I think we are forgetting stages 2, 3 and 4. My feeling tells me you will loose everything by the time your mind hits stage 2 that's because at stage 2 your mind registers nothing visual nor will it respond to anything except wake up when it detects disturbance. So you could be oscillating between going back to sleep and waking up at stage 2...sounds like alot of dreamless sleep to me. Even for morning WILD's there's at least stage 2. If you WILD on your own it's less likely you will awaken at stage 2.
> 
> IMJ



I see what you are saying now.  People have reported having WILD's with this.  I am hoping to obtain visuals of actual objects and then using the 'containmnent and spinning method' from Lucidology 102 to suck me into a lucid dream.

----------


## imj

> The Gysin dream machine is designed to induce WILD's.



But it would still affect dream recall because the light is still on unless a timer is installed to cut the light off after you gone pass the HI stage and start dreaming. Artificial light sources can be quite damaging to dream recall and sleep...do it over a 6 month period and you get a disrupted dream pattern/frequency and poor sleep cycles.

IMJ

----------


## mcwillis

I will use a timer to shut it off after I can gauge time scales.

----------


## imj

> I see what you are saying now.  People have reported having WILD's with this.  I am hoping to obtain visuals of actual objects and then using the 'containmnent and spinning method' from Lucidology 102 to suck me into a lucid dream.



I can fix it up with no problem but I am apprehensive about it because using light has cost me my sleep and dream frequency.. :Sad: . I may try it after I seen you guy's results....or effects of it.

IMJ

----------


## mcwillis

> I can fix it up with no problem but I am apprehensive about it because using light has cost me my sleep and dream frequency...
> 
> IMJ



Can you elaborate please?  What experiments have you done precisely?

----------


## imj

I used a timer that could be reset at anytime by pressing a small switch held in the hand while falling asleep. I had the cue enter the dream but the problem was recognizing it. So I later resorted to using it to induce WILD or in hopes to add some conscious awareness into dreams. I got some success with the latter. During one of the test pattern of light which was having the light remain on and then off for 2 s and then turn back on like a beacon I was able to see the light in the dream and because it was a waking up dream where I was already awake but still dreaming I was able to dream not lucidly but with waking memory of what I wanted from the dream and it manifested in the dream. It did not last long because the light was negating the continuing formation of the dream. I did it on two nights but further testing proved that it was affecting dreaming and sleep so I had to stop.

IMJ

----------


## imj

After watching the video link..maybe it might work...I really don't know. But it seems the user is not dreaming anything just HI or visualizations. The machine looks like it is not designed for sleeping but more for meditative state where the user sits in front of the rotating  light and there's no mention of dream control or awareness that the user is dreaming maybe I am missing something? Another point is that in the video the machine uses an incandescent light bulb which emits no blue light mainly red which if it did would upset the light to dark sleep rhythm of the mind...maybe you may want to use orange or red LEDs. White LEDs in particular have alot of blue light so I think I would avoid those.. :smiley: .

IMJ

----------


## mcwillis

> I used a timer that could be reset at anytime by pressing a small switch held in the hand while falling asleep. I had the cue enter the dream but the problem was recognizing it. So I later resorted to using it to induce WILD or in hopes to add some conscious awareness into dreams. I got some success with the latter. During one of the test pattern of light which was having the light remain on and then off for 2 s and then turn back on like a beacon I was able to see the light in the dream and because it was a waking up dream where I was already awake but still dreaming I was able to dream not lucidly but with waking memory of what I wanted from the dream and it manifested in the dream. It did not last long because the light was negating the continuing formation of the dream. I did it on two nights but further testing proved that it was affecting dreaming and sleep so I had to stop.
> 
> IMJ



Thanks for the reply.  It maybe something to bear in mind.

----------


## oneironeer

Okay, jumping RIGHT into the middle of a conversation here, but the comment about the lights being similar to a zoetrope started me having strange, random associations. Dream palaces, as movie theaters were called, flicker lights/images at various frames per second. Anyone think it's possible to have a looped zoetrope style series of images that might help trigger lucid dreams?

I've created my own binaural beats and isochronic beats, and I have a vague understanding of how they work (especially the binaural beats, the iso I have plugins for, so I'm cheating). But exactly how would one rate the "frames per second" to get to the alpha wave?

Anyhoo, just a random somewhat related thought to toss into the mix.

----------


## Dreambird

i shit you now.. That virtual dream machine just made me shit brix.. after a few mins of it i startet to be able to see.. with my eyes closed? the fuck?

----------


## mcwillis

> i shit you now.. That virtual dream machine just made me shit brix.. after a few mins of it i startet to be able to see.. with my eyes closed? the fuck?



Do you mean the online version?

----------


## mcwillis

I solved the overheating issue by adding a BC547 NPN transistor to the output of the NE555 timer chip and also added a 250 ohm variable resistor to alter the brightness of the flashing LED's.  A full experiment begins tonight  :smiley:

----------


## Monster99d

Wow, thats neat.  Maybe if it works after you try it Mcwill you can send me the blueprints to make one?

----------


## mcwillis

Yes I can sort out a blueprint if you want one.  Mine gets its first proper test run in less than an hour.

----------


## atkins513

How where your results. let us know sir

----------


## imj

> i shit you now.. That virtual dream machine just made me shit brix.. after a few mins of it i startet to be able to see.. with my eyes closed? the fuck?



You mean you had an FA?...Be more specific! What about the feeling you had after it...did it tire you out? Did you even have a proper night's sleep for that matter. If it's gonna screw up sleep I wouldn't use it even if it worked.

IMJ

----------


## anderj101

> I solved the overheating issue by adding a BC547 NPN transistor to the output of the NE555 timer chip and also added a 250 ohm variable resistor to alter the brightness of the flashing LED's.  A full experiment begins tonight



Sweet!  Please keep us posted.

----------


## mcwillis

> Sweet!  Please keep us posted.



Yea thanks for the tip.  I was overlooking the obvious !!!

----------


## mcwillis

Tried my dream machine last night and I saw a lot of short thin lines of light.  I also started to see movements of colour begin to form in the centre of my eyelid space vision.  After about five minutes I started to feel strong vibrational currents throughout my body just like when listening to audio brainwave entrainment but more pronounced.  I then felt mild pain in the extreme left and right of the back of my brain so I stopped there and then.  I was tired and it had been a long day.  I'm going to leave it 48 hours and use again in the afternoon or early evening instead.  No abnormal after effects.

----------


## atkins513

Sounds promising, like you were starting towards wild ld

----------


## mcwillis

Yes it was an interesting experience and I could feel my consciousness change profoundly at times.  The brain pain does concern me though.

----------


## atkins513

i dont think the brain pain is anything to worry about, after all, its just light lol.. I think it may have been your brains way of signaling you that something was different than normal.. like possibly your brain was trying to switch to rem mode with low melatonin or something, but this is theory

----------


## mcwillis

Hmmm.  It's a shame there isn't much experimental experince to find on the internet.  Mr.  Sommerville used his for many years.  Aquanina is deeply interested in the brain, she may know why that part of my brain experienced pain.

----------


## dakotahnok

*I just did the online on. 
I started getting visuals. There might be something to this.*

----------


## mcwillis

How long did you watch for?

Were the flashes of light inconsistent as they were for me?

What did you see  :smiley:

----------


## aLucidSkater

The visuals look like HI kinda.
I started seeing red blobs twisting and spinning and then turned into what looked like a flag.

----------


## atkins513

I have experienced some visuals with the online one for well, when using it with my big screen tv, the brightness full, and with no other visible light. I did see some result but it was still dim by comparison of leds and I think ineffective overall result because of not being bright enough.

----------


## WanderingMind

I had an idea for myself. What I plan to do tonight is when the lights go out (Since I have roommates whilst I'm deployed), I'm going to put the machine on, and listen to an isochronic tone for lucid dreaming for 30 minutes with it flickering. Then I'm going to watch the subliminal lucid video from world of lucid dreaming. After that I might listen to one more aid while I actually try to get to sleep.

----------


## Different

sounds very interesting but I'd rather stick to MILD/DILD/DEILD before moving onto more complex things. Best master the basics and get lucid the 'old fashioned way' for now, but good luck to you more experienced LD'ers  ::D:

----------


## WanderingMind

Ok I think I screwed myself, but I felt some effects.

I guess with this new sleep schedule since I am overseas, I need more sleep to successfully WBTB. I did a five hour in, and then I stayed up for 30 getting breakfast, and headed back to bed. I was going to do the same drill again, but just tried to get more sleep. At one point I felt myself about to go under into deep sleep, but I was sore (A), and I was paranoid about waking up too late. So I woke myself up. :/ I do this occasionally sadly.

Having said that.  A few hours into the whole thing I did not become completely lucid, but my crappy dream recall increased a good bit with details and moments. So I will try again tonight to see how things continue. I did the machine for 32 minutes last night with the lucid dream isochronic from unexplainable.net

----------


## imj

I'm getting inspired by your testing...I have started 'resusing' my light..but I'm using it as MILD for now... :smiley: . It's been a long time since someone posted some device to an otherwise dead idea of using light cues.

IMJ

----------


## WanderingMind

I forgot one thing: I actually recalled two vivid dreams. One I nearly forgot, but recovered the details through the day. So I'm going to start trying to use this as a tool as often as I can.

----------


## WanderingMind

Ok so I tried my little thing again. I did it for about 37 minutes this time. I was laying down though. I was very tired because I had to deprive myself of sleep to be ready to work the next day (And thusly get a full night; So one "Morning" I slept for four hours and I just slept for eight at a normal hour).

I listened to the lucid dream isochronic from unexplainable.net (Which I do recommend) and brain sync's lucid dreaming mp3 which is basically theta waves with subliminal messages thrown in. 

I did end up falling asleep through it, but then I woke up and I put Hemi Sync on. The lucid dreaming tapes 2A-2B which is a total of about 90 minutes. I got really relaxed from being put into focus 10, and after I was put to down into deep sleep I had some very crazy and erratic lucid dreams. I had probably around 15, but they didn't start to calm down until about dream 8.  

Hemi sync products tend to do this to me. I have dreams while I am in the middle of listening to a lot of them. But they are generally very controlled and fairly calm lucids, and not nuts like last night. 

I had six dreams that weren't so bad. Three of them were prototype dreams. I haven't played the game in a few days (I have it on PC), but I know I was Alex for some moments. I did the claw underground move, ran extremely fast, and flipped around on walls. I had three romantic dreams as well before that. I was trying to focus on the latter as the thing to "Jog my imagination" but was pretty unsuccessful at making it specifically that subject.

I had what felt to be Two OOBEs as well, but I think it was just a dream this time. I did what some people call "Pulling the cord" (I simply thought about it), and while some of the scenery was exactly that of where I am now, a few things changed. Mainly the time of day as it was day in my dream/oobe? but it was night at the time I had it.

Unfortunately through a lot of them my site was not very vivid. It seemed like everything was in black and white and very dark, but that's the setting I was on. All the more for me to maybe connect those dots.

I really feel that the dream machine had an effect this time. I had a large increase in dreams/LDs, and I would think the fact that they were erratic and the color in most of them had something to do with the speed of the flash.

My only issue is that it seems I need hemi sync to assist me, and when it does I can't seem to be able to just do it on my own without in the same period of sleep. Who knows though? I'm about to nap a little again in a few minutes. Maybe something else will pop up.


I thank the OP for the info.

----------


## joggerman

Although this sounds promising, a word of warning -
Flashing lights at certain frequencies have been proven to trigger epilepsy, even in some who have never had it before.

----------


## atkins513

This is a well known fact. We are warned lol.

2 things this post adds.

1. Flashing lights at various frequencies can have very powerful affects on the brain. This is good.
2. Epileptic episodes would be less likely to be triggered using this, than a typical flashing light, if you keep your eyes closed. The light still gets through but from what I read if there is no focal point, such as looking directly at a light, it has much less of an effect in epileptic concern.

----------


## whiterain

> This is a well known fact. We are warned lol.
> 
> 2 things this post adds.
> 
> 1. Flashing lights at various frequencies can have very powerful affects on the brain. This is good.
> 2. Epileptic episodes would be less likely to be triggered using this, than a typical flashing light, if you keep your eyes closed. The light still gets through but from what I read if there is no focal point, such as looking directly at a light, it has much less of an effect in epileptic concern.



yes personally i wouldnt try and use this for long periods in order to force a WILD. the more intense methods are always the most risky, and their certainly seems to be some power in simple flashing lights. i tried it last night before bed, and after just a minute or so i could really feel it pulsing in my minds eye. i was able to really focus on the imagery behind my eyelids which was kind of similar to what you get from just pressing your eyelids with your fingers. while lying in bed i could relax my eyes while meditating and similar fuzzy imagery was sort of overlaid onto reality. i had a much better meditation than normal and ended it with a wild attempt. i just wanted to visualise doing something really relaxing so i imagined being a turtle floating along. this was great and although i didnt get fully into the dream, it was still a pretty strong visualisation.

anyway in the morning i hit a couple of snooze periods on my alarm and had the longest chain of lucids ive ever had. and that is after a bit of a dry spell, although the dreams have still been more vivid and memorable. it ended with the longest and most stable lucid ive ever had. perhaps about half an hour or so. i was scuba diving along this canal and to stabilise it i was dragging myself along the bottom, trying to feel as much of my surroundings as i could. this worked great and i knew i was going to be in it for a while. i even managed to be so alert that i thought it would be worth having a go at healing myself in the dream. ive had a slight abdominal thing going on lately so i healed that area and it actually feels a lot better today.

i have had long lucid periods before up to about 15 mins probably, but the odd thing about this long one was that i didnt have as much control as usual. my usual reality check of pushing my hand through an object would have been no good because the dream was so stable that i tried pushing my hand through a wall and it just would not go. also i was with a girl trying to find a room in this house, but the house kept shrinking and changing. not in a scary, walls closing in kind of way but it kept happening so i just moved on to a different part of the dream. i ended up with a couple of mates who seemed out of their heads, so i just hung around watching things to restabilise. i was looking at a panel of wood and the grain was so intricate and seemed to glow along its lines. anyway i kept waking up and just willing myself back into a dream. ive done this a lot recently, but never into a guaranteed series of lucids like this morning. cheers folks there is something to this, but i wouldnt over do it

----------


## imj

I think the lucid surge may be due to some subliminal state that was induced by this light...possible? You had the intention of wanting to be lucid surely then this light made that idea 'burn-in' as you fell asleep. I had the similar thing happen to me when I used  a spot light to shine at my eyes via pressing a switch and whenever I did I think of lucid dreaming and I got a lucid dream after that.

IMJ

----------


## whiterain

sure it could just be something like that, but i do think it plays some kind of effect on the connection between your eyes and mind that is beneficial for dreaming. i did an open eye meditation last night after using this for a minute or 2, and after a while i fell asleep straight into a lucid for the first time. as my eyes were open, i could see why people call this remote viewing, because i was aware of my surroundings, but more aware of flying down the road in a car. this is a common dream and i dont drive much these days which helped to recognise it as a dream. i tried to drive it down to london but it felt quite tough to maintain so it lasted a couple of minutes then faded into an unconscious dream

----------


## WanderingMind

I'm having this affect me with WBTBs/WILDs. 

last night I did my normal ritual of listening to it with the two mp3s. I had trouble sleeping because of some unrelated matters, but just doing it tired me a bit. I slept about six hours, and I woke up to watch something in the morning. I was able to sleep for an hour before I had to go to work and I did. I felt that I was going to have a lucid, and I did in the middle of my nap. It was pretty vivid, and I noticed at the end that I sort of phased out of the dream with flashing black and white light, and that to me said everything. One of the mp3s is subliminal messages. Maybe the combination is working.

I'm not awesome like whiterain and having them in the beginning of the night though. lol

----------


## whiterain

> I'm having this affect me with WBTBs/WILDs. 
> 
> last night I did my normal ritual of listening to it with the two mp3s. I had trouble sleeping because of some unrelated matters, but just doing it tired me a bit. I slept about six hours, and I woke up to watch something in the morning. I was able to sleep for an hour before I had to go to work and I did. I felt that I was going to have a lucid, and I did in the middle of my nap. It was pretty vivid, and I noticed at the end that I sort of phased out of the dream with flashing black and white light, and that to me said everything. One of the mp3s is subliminal messages. Maybe the combination is working.
> 
> I'm not awesome like whiterain and having them in the beginning of the night though. lol



nah its one lucky shot in years of trying really mate. as your eyes flicker in rem, perhaps the flashing lights just replicate that effect

----------


## Cethulsus

> Dunno, Ive always liked gadgets.  I made my first lucid dream machine in 1986.  Just grabs my attention, that's why I'm here.  I don't expect this to work but one of Gysin's friends played around with this for years and his results were displayed in a journal in the 60's I think.  Im going to get some veroboard and put a simple oscillating timer on it with a couple of white LED's.  I'll have a switch for frquencies from 8 to 13 Hz and a dimmer for the LED's to get the right brightness.  Then I'll stick the board in the pouch that is on my lucid dreaming mask that is in my drawer.  Looks like it's going to get some use after all !!!



jeez, man, you made one? How did you make it? Just wondering...

----------


## oneironeer

Took a stab at this myself...





With the lights out, expanded to full view, and with the Isochronic Tones aiding, my friend said he started seeing dream images in just the brief time of this video. I'd like to create something that ramps down from 13Hz down to 4Hz, and slowly back up to 7Hz. But for now, this is a Theta rhythm. Oh, and yeah, if you suffer from epilepsy, don't watch this. The research I've done says 1 out of 10,000 may suffer a seizure. ::shrugg:: To be used with caution.

~oneironeer

----------


## Blacklight

I find it slightly odd that oneironauts seem to find more advanced methods in reverse-engineering old and forgotten research and ancient philosophies then they do with developing new techniques.
And I'm definitely following this thread.

----------


## mcwillis

Hopefully I can get some help from some guys I know online to let me know why I felt pain in both sides of the rear of my brain.  I am hesitant to use my dream machine again until I feel that it is safe for me to do so.

----------


## mcwillis

> jeez, man, you made one? How did you make it? Just wondering...



Basically it is a small electronic circuit that makes two light emitting diodes flash 10 times every second (like the power lights on your pc or laptop but larger and emitting white light)

Took a couple of hours to solder all the components onto a circuit board and presto I had made myself a dream machine !

----------


## Blacklight

> I am hesitant to use my dream machine again until I feel that it is safe for me to do so.



I'm thinking that saying "take one for the team" wouldn't have much effect on you.

----------


## mcwillis

> I'm thinking that saying "take one for the team" wouldn't have much effect on you.



 :smiley:  My first experiment did go well.  A lot of unusual visual phenomena.  But the pain was localised and concerned me.  I did report that there weren't any after side effects.

----------


## atkins513

Alright, I'll do it, let me know the cost...  :smiley:

----------


## zebrah

I am very hesitant to use this anymore because my eyes felt super trippy. At least I have a strobe light now  :smiley:

----------


## anderj101

I tried the online version last night and started seeing some strange things.  I don't think my monitor is bright enough, so I'm hitting the workbench tonight to exercise the soldering iron.

mcwillis: I'm assuming the LEDs are set to flash simultaneously, not alternating.  Can you confirm?

----------


## mcwillis

Indeed, simultaneously.

----------


## atkins513

you having any further luck with this  mcwillis

----------


## Rybread34

Holy crap, I turned that thing on for like a second in a well lit room and thought I was going to have a seizure...(I don't have a history of epileptic seizures)

----------


## atkins513

> Holy crap, I turned that thing on for like a second in a well lit room and thought I was going to have a seizure...(I don't have a history of epileptic seizures)



lol

----------


## riverboy

Just did a quick search on my Uni database of journals and found an article on the history of flicker induced hallucinations. I don't have time right now but if anybody's interested I'm willing to summarise and post on here in the morning.

----------


## anderj101

I foresee interesting results from the bench prototype.  Looking at the LEDs through closed eyelids yields some very interesting visuals, and they vary greatly with the frequency and pulse length applied.



I'm cheating a little by using my $10 trainer box with adjustable oscillator.  I intend to mount the LEDs into this old pair of comfy, but scratched sunglasses.  If I like it, I'll build a small box with a 555 and the support components to drive the glasses.

----------


## atkins513

thats a pretty cool looking setup actually.. id love to hear how some of these work out

----------


## Blacklight

The waiting is killing me.

----------


## anderj101

OK, finally got it all together and the glue has dried.



The 4-12Hz range seems to produce the most interesting visuals with a 50% pulse width.  Now, all I need is a timer and we'll see what it does to a dream!

----------


## dark_grimmjow

Wow! That looks friggin' awesome! They look like they would be comfortable to wear and not something unnatural. I think the only issue may be keeping them on your head while you sleep. If you are like me, i tend to toss and turn alot. Anyway, I can't wait to see how timer results turn out.

----------


## atkins513

Yea, that looks pretty cool.. i cant wait to see some results with this...

----------


## whiterain

i took a couple of days off using this and still had great dreams but nothing to write home about. tried it again last night and although i had no real immediate effects i had a fckin hefty lucid in the morning. its the only thing i can think of that really was different to the other days so going to keep trying it.

heres the journal entry

11/02/11

i went to a series of lessons, mostly on US obesity in a classroom at the top of a scyscraper in london. heights are a big dreamsign for me so i slowly caught on and started to do my usual disruption of the class while explaining that its only a dream to people. no one else seemed to catch on, but on the way out i explained to friends that i was now going to float around all the time just so people could no longer deny it was a dream  :wink2:  often in lucids i fade out of lucidity easily, but floating was a great way of having a constant reminder that it was a dream. i exited the building and one mate agreed it was a dream which is rare and he was floating a bit too. 

i came to a dead end school quad like building and my mate russ came out of the door looking really pleased to see me. i spoke to him clear as day and said "so is this just a normal dream, or are you astrally projecting or something". he is about the only mate i have that openly knows about this stuff and just said something like "well its more of a kind of dream within a dream kind of thing". i really need to listen to other people better... anyway he left and i floated up the building and noticed that inside the school each class wa being led by a foxman/man in a fox suit.

there were balconies all over the building like my old uni halls. i floated up them and started chatting to 2 girls and a boy i thought i recognised but cant place. i said something like "when someone floats past you thats usually a good sign that you are dreaming". the boy questioned me, something like "well if this is a dream what day is it"? i found it quite hard to access my real memory so said "hmm ive lost track, its about thursday i think". we thought about it and came to the conclusion that it was now friday wihch seemed right. i explained to them that since i had become lucid i was just trying to interact with people in that state and see how they reacted when i told them it is a dream. one girl said "dont do that its scary" and i said "what is scary about sitting up on a balcony drinking with a couple of mates in a dream?" she kind of agreed that it wasnt realy scary but still looked a little apprehensive

----------


## KristaNicole07

I tried using the online version of this last night, and my eyes didn't want to stay closed while the light was flashing. Weird.

----------


## Rimnii

Wow I just watched that for like 15 minutes. Had some real trippy imagery.

I can see it being useful for inducing HI, but if you tried to use this during a WBTB induction would it be too stimulating or would it be beneficial to see those shapes?

----------


## anderj101

> I think the only issue may be keeping them on your head while you sleep.



I sleep like a fallen log, so these glasses and my big Realistic Nova 44 headphones mostly stay put throughout the night.






> I tried using the online version of this last night, and my eyes didn't want to stay closed while the light was flashing. Weird.



 Same here, but only when laying down. I had to rest my fingers lightly on my eyelids to keep them from opening.

----------


## whiterain

> I sleep like a fallen log, so these glasses and my big Realistic Nova 44 headphones mostly stay put throughout the night.
> 
> 
> 
>  Same here, but only when laying down. I had* to rest my fingers lightly on my eyelids to keep them from opening*.



yep i did that too. it does seem to help if you relax your eyes as much as possible. almost like you are turning you eyes off and trying to see through your mind

----------


## Wristblade56

this is kinda interesting, and i tried the computer dreamachine. i didn't really experience anything unusual. mcwilis what exactly are you doing? building a homemade nova dreamer?

----------


## mcwillis

> this is kinda interesting, and i tried the computer dreamachine. i didn't really experience anything unusual. mcwilis what exactly are you doing? building a homemade nova dreamer?



Before I answer your question I have been doing background research on the safety of this and am comfortable with doing an extended session today.  Onto your question.  With a nova dreamer you put it on and go to sleep.  When you dream you are in REM sleep which is an acronym for Rapid Eye Movement.  Your eyes move from side to side very rapidly.  The nova dreamer detects these eye movements and then flashes LED's so that you will experience an aspect of this light in your dream which will hopefully alert you to the fact that you are dreaming.  A dream machine is completely different.  It is to be used whilst fully awake.  It is a visual method of brainwave entrainment and as Brion Gysin discovered visual brainwave entrainment can induce a lucid dream whilst being fully awake.

----------


## Jac

How long do I have to wait for it to work?

----------


## mcwillis

> Why do some people always connect these ld's, obe's, sp, etc with the spiritual world or anything similar extraordinary. There are some sad people in the world.



Although there is a lot of contention regarding lucid dreams, astral travelling and spirituality there seems to be a general consensus amongst the Eastern disciplines that there are seven planes of existance.

Physical
Astral
Mental
Bhuddic
Atmic
Anupadaka
Adi

The astral worlds are far more extraordinary than the physical.  No wonder this forum has had over a thousand visitors a day.  I have travelled further than the astral plane and it hasn't instilled a feeling of sadness in me.  Instead it has filled me with jaw dropping awe and trembling humility.

----------


## anderj101

> Yea, that looks pretty cool.. i cant wait to see some results with this...



I hauled my LED glasses and the oscillator box over to my bed to incorporate them into an experiment last night. The results were quite incredible. Here is the applicable excerpt from my Full Dream Journal Entry.





> I climb into bed and put my flashing LED glasses on. I set the brightness very low and set the speed to approximately 12Hz. I slowly turn up the brightness to a comfortable level. At first, geometric patterns begin to form in a chaotic fashion. The patterns slowly move around and form into structures. They are becoming well organized, sliding around and fitting together like puzzle pieces. Once the puzzle completes the assembly of itself, the texture of the patterns melt into a solid white plane that seems to maintain sync with the flashing. As my brainwaves try to stay in sync with the flashing, small corrections cause the flashing to become very apparent for split seconds until my brain corrects the synchronization. In my experience of electronics, it seems that my brain was functioning like a PLL (Phase Locked Loop) circuit, making minor realtime corrections to maintain a frequency lock with the reference source, the LED glasses. After about 5 minutes, I remove the LED glasses while keeping my eyes closed.



All I can say is "WOW!"  They didn't give me a headache or cause any problems other than making my eyes water a little too much. Maybe I had them turned up just a little brighter than I really needed.

----------


## atkins513

Did you get any actual visualizations or any vivid scenery from this? Where you able to get lucid after taking the glasses off?

----------


## anderj101

> Did you get any actual visualizations or any vivid scenery from this? Where you able to get lucid after taking the glasses off?



I took them off, then rolled over and proceeded to WILD for the first time. This led me into the most epic series of lucids and false awakenings I have ever had. During the dream, the lightning vortex I saw in the mirror after the third FA _(5th paragraph)_ resembled some of the visuals the glasses gave me. I put together a composite image and added it to my DJ entry, in an attempt to reproduce some of what I saw. + Click here to see the full Dream Journal Entry +

I am currently trying to build a programmable timer so I can attempt to have the lights come on just as I enter REM sleep. This should make things really interesting.

----------


## atkins513

This was an interesting experiment and I think it may show exactly how this device can be used. If the device will not shift the mind into sleep mode through the frequency of flashing, then it may be possible that it can prepare the mind for sleep mode through watching a particular frequency of flashing.. then taking the glasses off and attempting to wild may be the way to go.. The Journal Entry was great.. I would like to see much more of this and it looks very promising..

----------


## mcwillis

Unfortunately for the last two days I have been swamped with outside commitments to do another test run after allaying my fears.  I also have a slight illness so until I am better I won't bother with an attempt.

Anderj101 those are extremely promising results.  Have you had success with WILD before?  I feel it is a shame that you were on a massive amount of chemical compounds as that may have heavily influenced and even caused your WILD instead of your Gysin dream machine.

----------


## anderj101

> Anderj101 those are extremely promising results.  Have you had success with WILD before?  I feel it is a shame that you were on a massive amount of chemical compounds as that may have heavily influenced and even caused your WILD instead of your Gysin dream machine.



Honestly, I just came out of a 3 month dry spell and wanted to start things off with a bang.  I'm quitting tobacco, so I smoke organic herbal cigarettes now.  It's a custom blend I developed that tastes really good.  The Galantamine was certainly responsible for the insanity of it all.  :smiley: 

That was my first successful WILD.  I never made it past 20 minutes of the body vibrations without moving one of my legs and screwing it all up.

I am awaiting a new programming cable for my PLC (Programmable Logic Controller) module so I can set it up to provide the pulses and serve the timer functions.  Once that arrives, I will give the dream machine another shot without any other aides.  It was very awkward trying to adjust the trainer box without being able to see it, not to mention that it has exposed AC connections just underneath the panel.  ::shock::   My PLC has shaped buttons on it that are very easy to locate and use without sight of them, plus I can program in unique beeps to let me know if I'm adjusting the speed, pulse width, or brightness.  Eh, what can I say?  I'm a total tech geek!  ::smartie::

----------


## Lost_prophet

So has anyone tried using the online version on a WBtB?

----------


## anderj101

I just finished writing my PLC code to control the glasses. One mode will start the flashing right away and slowly fade the brightness after 30 minutes. I'll try using this for my next WILD (without supplements). The other mode will delay for _n_ minutes, then slowly fade in the flashing, then slowly fade out after a set time. Hopefully I can get the timing so that this happens shortly after entering a dream.

As far as flashing speed, I'm considering starting with 12Hz again. I'm open to suggestions and will report any results.

The next several days will be spent adjusting the timing so that they will start flashing at exactly the right time. Wish me luck!  :smiley:

----------


## whiterain

> So has anyone tried using the online version on a WBtB?



not until tomorrow morning, cheers for the reminder, will report back

----------


## Duo

I tried the online dream machine just there: 
Sitting up
Dark room, monitor was the only light source
Close to a large monitor
About five minutes long

The result was a series of weird geometric patterns, usually in red from the light shining through my eyelids, they almost seemed to be just caused by the flashing as a trick of the light, but it was clear they were HI because I was able to rotate them and control them to a certain degree. I didn't feel any physical sensations and I doubt it could induce a WILD, but I still reckon there's something in this.

----------


## Magus2003

All of this reminds me of my experiments several years ago.
I have a mind machine light/sound, like the one shown in the initial video.
I also have a novadreamer, but have not really had much luck with that.

The L/S machine really does drive brainwaves and because of this, is not always suitable for inducing lucids.
I have not been able to go straight into a lucid type dream with the device and have used it many, many times at pre-programmed frequencies. Some people including myself that have used it have had at times vivid images appear to them, from faces staring back at them to finding themselves in vivid green fields. But these images are always fleeting as the driven brainwaves are so tight, that the mind cannot go into the direction it would like to see more.

However, over the years I have come to the conclusion that whilst the machine is on, you are not going to experience a lucid dream. BUT, the brain does resonate with those same frequencies for hours after a session and this can be useful.

A few years ago, I developed a series of frequencies in a program that lasted for about 40mins I believe. I still have the program on my mind machine and could check it out again. I found that when the program finished I felt very tired and would then switch the unit off and just lay back in bed and try to sleep.
On every occasion after the program was played, I consciously moved into sleep paralysis and on several occasions these went into lucid dreams/OOBE.

It can be done, but more research has to be done. Flashing lights will entrain the brain too tightly and the chances are that you will not experience lucid dreams whilst the unit is on, as the frequency driving will not allow it to happen. But it can be done after if you hit the right frequencies.

If you have heard of the book (Advanced lucid dreaming), then you may have heard of the author. He was connected to an ecg and his brain waves were monitored whilst he lucid dreamed. It was found that his brainwave frequencies peaked occasionally at 9Hz every time he went lucid, so look at this frequency or there about’s to help with this experiment , but also understand that these 9hz came in quick burst of a second or so every now again only.

Hope this helps.

Also, it is sometimes more helpful to have the led's at low light instead of bright, as the lower the brightness, the more the brain can over-ride the frequency driving and move into the direction it wants to move into itself.

----------


## Magus2003

You might find this interesting.

Mind Machine Experiments and Lucid Dreaming | Dreaming Life

----------


## Magus2003

Something else of interest...

Brainwave Entrainment for Lucid Dreams - Dreamviews Lucid Dreaming Community & Resource

----------


## Duo

Why exactly are we trying to induce Alpha waves? All my knowledge of brain waves and their relation to sleeping/waking states comes from Wikipedia, but it doesn't seem that Alpha waves have much to do with REM sleep, what Magus posted regarding using Binaural beats seemed far more useful.

----------


## Onforty

It actually affected me, but since i dont want to wake my parents, i only tried for 3 mins, its like a fractal or a huge flashy GOL i get in my eyes, i might consider building such dream device

----------


## LucidPower

I used to have the NOVA dreamer machine. I didn't really find it that useful. It gave strange colours in dreams but nothing that said 'I must be dreaming now'

----------


## Shinice

Can anyone ever lucid without methods of induction, and think & do nth at all, jus lie down as if u're sleeping, and just wait for it to take u? Are there such cases yet?

----------


## Magus2003

> Why exactly are we trying to induce Alpha waves? All my knowledge of brain waves and their relation to sleeping/waking states comes from Wikipedia, but it doesn't seem that Alpha waves have much to do with REM sleep, what Magus posted regarding using Binaural beats seemed far more useful.



Duo,

When we enter rem sleep, most of the time we are in theta brain waves. If however alpha should kick in whilst still having strong theta, then we will become more aware and conscious. We can experience alpha, that produces a relaxed but aware state, hence lucid dreams.
Theta will produce dreams, but depending how much alpha is present will depend on how much awareness we have in the dream state. If you have no alpha you will not remember your dreams at all...

----------


## Duo

Ah, I figured that out about half an hour after I posted that, thanks for clearing that up.

----------


## Duo

I don't know if it's off topic, but I'm gonna try the Binaural beats tonight, I will report back in the morning (GMT) to tell you what happened.

----------


## Duo

Well, I got shafted by technology because my phone decided it was going to switch to the next track and my left earphone fell out (I'd use headphones, but I don't own any) so not much to report there really.

----------


## Highlander

Hi all,

*WHITE LED 'BLUE LIGHT' output - IMPORTANT!*
I touch on what IMG stated on an earlier post on this thread regarding the light output from the dreammachine, etc.
"...Another point is that in the video the machine uses an incandescent light bulb which emits no blue light mainly red which if it did would upset the light to dark sleep rhythm of the mind...maybe you may want to use orange or red LEDs.* White LEDs in particular have alot of blue light so I think I would avoid those*..."

Note that I highlighed the sentence regarding the avoidance of using 'White' LED's. I would have to agree that the use of White LED's in such projects as this should be avoided where possible.
'White' LED's are reportedly up to 10 times stronger than their Red LED counterpart.
If you do a Google search on the subject of Blue Light radiation (from the LED) you will find interesting reading: 
For example: Artificial Lighting and the Blue Light Hazard

Read that article (especially about the LED) & draw your OWN conclusions.

Don't think that I'm being a killjoy. I think it would be safer to use the 'standard' Red LED at a low level.
I know some will keep the eyes closed with the LED's flashing, so you would see 'red' due to the eyelid / blood vessels, etc. anyway. 

From the posts I have read: Inc. the stuff about the Gysin 'dream-machine', that it is a device for inducing Hypnagogic type Imagery rather than any 'lucid dreamstate' by producing 'alpha waves'. Shaman's, etc. practiced this thousands of years ago after finding out that staring in front of a burning fire that the flames induced a type of 'trance' state.

...And no I don't suggest setting fire to your bed! :Eek:

----------


## whiterain

> I used to have the NOVA dreamer machine. I didn't really find it that useful. It gave strange colours in dreams but nothing that said 'I must be dreaming now'



i guess it could be helpful if you spend enough time concentrating on using seeing colours as a dreamsign. its incredible how much physical info you still take in while dreaming. i had a bit of indigestion the other night which translated into the dream as having a mouthful of food which i was trying to find a place to spit out

----------


## Iwannafly

Ik a lot of people said that it helped but my case is different. I don't get HI. Like I don't see color when I close my eyes in total darkness. I try the online dream machine and I have huge colors and shapes floating around in my vision. I was amazed. Lastly non of the other color LEDs effect me other then white so i don't care about hazards to much

----------


## sogart

I think this machine LINK seems to be working in a similar way. The blinking lights wake you up in dream. Hope it gets funded so I can try it out  :Shades wink:   :Shades wink:   ::banana::

----------


## Pegasis

> The discussion I want to bring up here is the discovery that a dream state was triggered by light rapidly flashing onto the closed eyelids of a man (Brion Gysin) while on a train. Sunlight supposedly flashed through the window as he passed tree's, buildings, and other objects, and while he was fully awake, he had a full 3d vivid experience. The man then created a lamp and shade system that recreated flashing lights at a certain frequency and was said that this triggered the vivid life experience, that we today know of as Lucid Dreaming. 
> 
> "He built the Dreamachine in 1961. Described as "the first art object to be seen with the eyes closed",[12] the flicker device uses alpha waves in the 8-16 Hz range to produce a change of consciousness in receptive viewers."
> 
> ------
> Watch information about it here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have looked at pictures and had dreams about them.

----------


## mcwillis

> I tried using the online version of this last night, and my eyes didn't want to stay closed while the light was flashing. Weird.



 ::lol::   My dream machine is quite intense and I can understand why your eyes did this.  I have downloaded an app on my phone where I can strobe the camera flash and set it to different frequencies.

----------


## Pegasis

Lucid dreaming can be induced intensionally, or variables like looking at pictures, song etc can bring it on.

----------

