# Lucid Dreaming > Dream Control >  >  A Unifying Theory of Dream Control

## Mzzkc

Pretty pompous title for a thread, I know. But hear me out, the idea isn't as far-fetched as you might think.

To start things off, I want you to have a decent foundation of knowledge concerning dream control so I can try to pull it all together for you. Below are some resources I'm expecting you to have read through before continuing. Yeah, it's a lot, but hopefully it'll help ground your understanding of the relevant topics. When reading, I particularly want you to focus on understanding how dreams are formed and maintained, as all dream control is obtained by manipulating that process.

To be read in order:http://www.dreamviews.com/f14/master...-dreams-48095/http://www.dreamviews.com/f14/infini...reaming-46571/http://www.dreamviews.com/f14/nature...control-57283/http://www.dreamviews.com/f14/stabil...entals-116673/http://www.dreamviews.com/f14/archet...t-tool-104409/
After going through all of those myself, I'm surprised I didn't come to the conclusion I'm about to share with you sooner. But one thing in particular was holding me back, a rather large oversight on my part that a friend pointed out during a lively discussion. See, for the longest time, I was convinced that control through archetype and schema manipulation operated separately from expectation. Silly, considering schema are, by definition, preconceived expectations that shape how we view our world, both real and imagined.

Until that moment, I adamantly rejected the idea that all there is to dream control is expectation, to the point where I scoffed at those claims. For what was archetype control if not a form of attention manipulation? And indeed, it is, but here I was thinking that was all there was to that particular technique. My suddenly understanding of the underlying expectation behind it radically changed my viewpoint and helped me see the simple idea that has been staring us all in the face for so long.

So, I think I've been beating around the bush long enough. The theory I'm going to share was developed by pulling ideas from numerous resources and years of personal experience spanning hundreds of lucids. Keep in mind, it's just a theory, a well-tested one, yes, but it could be proven incomplete or even incorrect as our scientific understanding of dreams progresses.

I'm going to try to put it simply: *Dream control is achieved through the manipulation of expectation via shifts in attention.*

Yes, expectation is key, but that expectation, no matter how absolute, is worthless without the proper focus.

For instance, you can know, with all your being, that flight is a piece of cake, but if your focus is on the ground, on the constant pull of gravity, it becomes that much harder to fly. The same is true if you're focusing on all the right things, but can't help doubting your ability to lift off the ground, to shoot upwards, into the cosmos.

However, if your expectation and focus are in sync, suddenly, everything becomes simple. The only trick is recognizing how to use the two in conjunction with one another. Basic archetype control is a great example of these two processes working together to achieve a powerful effect. After all, archetype control is nothing more than simple, calculated focus combined with automatic expectation.

So. . . that's basically all I wanted to share with this thread. Please, don't think of this as full guide so much as a accompanying piece to all the resources I shared above. The main purpose of this thread was to call to light a few fundamental principles behind every aspect of dream control and offer a simple model for their interaction. Yes, even the effects of emotions, visualization, and willpower fit into this theory, so I feel it's rather complete in that regard. Still, feel free to try and contest/disprove it.

Also, I understand this wasn't a very comprehensive introduction to the theory, but if you've read through all the threads I provided you'll see a lot of ground has already been covered, albeit in pieces. I'm willing to put together a more complete guide, but only if people care enough and still can't grasp the theory's implications after studying it properly.

----------


## Mzzkc

Soooo, are you guys understanding this, or are implications this theory has on _all_ dream control not getting through?

Or is it all just tl;dr and no one cares enough about the subject to actually learn something about it?

Feedback would be appreciated so I can decide whether or not I want to put something more comprehensive together.

----------


## Zelkova

I not going to lie as I see no point in it, I kinda TL;DR it  but I did read a bit here and there to get the basic thought that you were trying to give. I didn't even click the links honestly. =/ Feeling lazy today.

I not sure if you just naturally that smart or just using long words to sound very smart. =P But it may help with the TL;DR issue if you dumb it down a little.

I may just be an idiot but let see if I got this right, The very basic of it is simply expectation + focus (on the right things of course) = Dream control?

The expectation part if true of course as I go all suicidal kickass in my dreams and if I know it will happen then of course it will happen. Only once this ever fail me during a dream but oddly enough this dream let me have dream control though I wasn't lucid. Ever watch a horror flim where you tell a woman to look behind her? I basically did that with a dream but on a higher scale...Transforming the main character into a badass assassin. He have the powers that I knew he should have but only once his power failed to work.

----------


## Avalanche

Yeah, same here, I couldn't really be bothered going through 5 other links just to understand one idea. Sorry.

Is your basic idea that if you want to fly, don't think of what you can't do and why you can't do it, but to expect things that are impossible to work and the desired action to happen?
As in don't think of gravity and how your body sucks at flight, but think of how it would feel to be flying?

----------


## ooflendoodle

I understand what your getting at as this is how I control my dreams and this is how I've done it for a while, but thanks for putting this all together for people who didn't know this.

----------


## Puffin

This type of control really works wonders. Thanks for sharing.  ::thumbup::

----------


## Mzzkc

> I not going to lie as I see no point in it, I kinda TL;DR it  but I did read a bit here and there to get the basic thought that you were trying to give. I didn't even click the links honestly. =/ Feeling lazy today.
> 
> I not sure if you just naturally that smart or just using long words to sound very smart. =P But it may help with the TL;DR issue if you dumb it down a little.



That's just how I write. XP





> I may just be an idiot but let see if I got this right, The very basic of it is simply expectation + focus (on the right things of course) = Dream control.



Yes, that's the high level conclusion you'd come to if you read through all the links and fully understood how dreams are formed. Expectation alone doesn't account for everything. It's only when you add focus, in conjunction with expectation, that a complete solution for dream control emerges.





> Yeah, same here, I couldn't really be bothered going through 5 other links just to understand one idea. Sorry.



No worries, it's your loss, not mine. The links are actually the best pieces written on dream control I've seen to date, but I can't make you want to learn.





> Is your basic idea that if you want to fly, don't think of what you can't do and why you can't do it, but to expect things that are impossible to work and the desired action to happen?
> As in don't think of gravity and how your body sucks at flight, but think of how it would feel to be flying?



Yes and no. The idea I'm trying to convey is that by harnessing how dreams seem to be formed, you can consciously control that formation. All my observation, and the observation of others (including Stephen LaBerge), have pointed to dream formation through schematic focus and association. Abstractly, the way to take advantage of this effect is bolded in the OP: namely, as Zelkova put it, expectation + proper focus = dream control. This idea accounts for all instances of successful and unsuccessful dream control that I've ever experienced or read about, including those instances where people truly expected something to happen, but didn't get the results they wanted, a phenomena that has yet gone unexplained by proponents of expectation.





> I understand what your getting at as this is how I control my dreams and this is how I've done it for a while, but thanks for putting this all together for people who didn't know this.



Well, if you want to get technical, theoretically, this is how everyone has been controlling their dreams, whether they know it consciously or not. XP

The difference is in the level people are working with these tools, whether it be at the highest level (ritualistic archetype-esque control with no knowledge of the finer workings) or the the lowest (raw manipulation of focus and expectation).

----------


## Avalanche

I think I see. If you can focus on that feeling of confidence you get when you are experienced? Like say you are great at basketball. If someone gave you a b-ball and told you to shoot a hoop, you would call on your experience and would know just how to shoot it in, no worries, no real thinking about it.

Are you saying if we can just jump and fly and be nonchalant about it enough, with the idea that we have flown hundreds of times before, this is no big deal, then it will come easier?

And I didn't read the whole thing because it was too long and too complicated. If you want people to read it and learn, you dont write it like everyone already knows what you're talking about.

----------


## Mzzkc

> I think I see. If you can focus on that feeling of confidence you get when you are experienced? Like say you are great at basketball. If someone gave you a b-ball and told you to shoot a hoop, you would call on your experience and would know just how to shoot it in, no worries, no real thinking about it.
> 
> Are you saying if we can just jump and fly and be nonchalant about it enough, with the idea that we have flown hundreds of times before, this is no big deal, then it will come easier?



No, I don't think this is quite what I'm saying. Largely, what you are talking about here is simply one piece of the puzzle, expectation. 

To build from your example:

That confidence is the basketball player's expectation at work, but without focusing on his actions, focusing on the hoop, on the coming swish of the net as the ball passes through, he could still mess up.

For flight, it doesn't matter if you've flown hundreds of times before, all it could take is a brief bit of improper focus on something counterproductive to flight to keep you on the ground. Yes your confidence, your expectation, is helpful, but it isn't the deciding factor on whether or not you'll be able to lift off the ground.





> And I didn't read the whole thing because it was too long and too complicated. If you want people to read it and learn, you dont write it like everyone already knows what you're talking about.



That's why I provided the links. Those links teach all the concepts I've been talking about throughout this thread. To reteach them all here would be, quite honestly, a waste of my time, as they've already been taught and explained in other places.

----------


## Avalanche

I see now, it's much more complex than what I originally imagined.

However, I don't want to read this. Any idea of the whole process of control being difficult is what hampers people most.

If we could somehow get a control group of newbie who have never heard of lucid dreaming being hard at all, I would expect all of the to be incredibly successful in their efforts. I think that the odd problem discussed here or the little whisper of difficulty there (such as this thread) would plant a seed in their minds, like everyone here, which opens up thoughts to allow doubt to come in.

If you could enter a dream and you "knew" that nothing could stop you from flying, you mostly likely would fly. But since everyone knows that if they don't focus like this or they don't concentrate, it can fail, and in dreams it usually does.

----------


## Mzzkc

> I see now, it's much more complex than what I originally imagined.
> 
> However, I don't want to read this. Any idea of the whole process of control being difficult is what hampers people most.
> 
> If we could somehow get a control group of newbie who have never heard of lucid dreaming being hard at all, I would expect all of the to be incredibly successful in their efforts. I think that the odd problem discussed here or the little whisper of difficulty there (such as this thread) would plant a seed in their minds, like everyone here, which opens up thoughts to allow doubt to come in.
> 
> If you could enter a dream and you "knew" that nothing could stop you from flying, you mostly likely would fly. But since everyone knows that if they don't focus like this or they don't concentrate, it can fail, and in dreams it usually does.



I see your point, and acknowledge the dangers of understanding the bigger picture, but I've always been of the opinion that knowing is better than not knowing. Sure, ignorance in this case could lead to bliss, but if you fully understand the concepts I've presented in this thread, understand your personal schematta, and have excellent control over your attention, it opens the door to infinite possibilities (even with the stray bit of doubt here and there). As odd as it may sound, since I figured this out, I've found that my control abilities have vastly improved from what they once were, and I was arguably very good to begin with.

Also, even if you don't want to read this piece, I think you might be interested in browsing through BillyBob's http://www.dreamviews.com/f14/master...-dreams-48095/ as that guide touches on a lot of the topics you just mentioned. Honestly, I think if newbies were to read that guide first, before going through any other dream control tutorials, I think people would be better off in general. Mostly because right now there are a lot of misconceptions floating about, and not a lot is being done to address them.

As it is, I can only hope that, one day, you'll want to delve deeper. =)

----------


## Avalanche

I am delving deeper than most of the newbies here, I can safely say.
I already read that fine read by Billybob, very good stuff, it should be a sticky or some kind of mandatory read of some kind.
Ignorance isn't usually bliss, but in the cases in which it does apply, it always is. It's a fine balance with lucid dreaming. Not knowing of some mistakes you can make can save you a lot of aggro. However knowing of these mistakes and enduring any time lost can ultimately be better for you, as you can learn and adapt to fully immunize yourself, rather than just hoping not to meet it.

----------


## Supernova

> The idea I'm trying to convey is that by harnessing how dreams seem to be formed, you can consciously control that formation. All my observation, and the observation of others (including Stephen LaBerge), have pointed to dream formation through schematic focus and association.



Yerp.

2 or 3 of those links I haven't read, so I guess I'll go take a look when I have the time.  I think you're really zeroing in on the bullseye, though.

----------


## Sageous

Mzzkc:

Great theory, but can I attempt to add a corollary to it?

You left out two key factors to dream control:  self-awareness and memory.

Personally I believe self-awareness is vastly more important to dream control than, well, _anything_.  During a dream, to be aware of who _you really are_, that this is a dream of your creation, and that this body you are occupying is simply another dream character created by you  is all you need to have complete control over the dream.  I don’t just mean small DC manipulations like flying, I mean the big stuff like changing the dream environment completely, exploring new worlds that might counter anything you thought about in the waking world, and actually contradicting any expectations you might have had coming in to the dream.  There, I feel, is where dream control really lies.  Attention is a critical tool, of course, but it is only a facet of self-awareness.

And memory?  Memory is another very important tool often overlooked -- mostly because it is often “shut off” during the dream.  If you can remember in a dream that this body you are in is just an avatar, and your real body is sleeping in its bed somewhere, you already halfway to self-awareness. 

I personally have never put much credence in expectation during my LD’s; and yet I’ve had more than a few LD’s packed with enormous control.  Indeed, expectation can lead a dreamer down a very bad path:  If you set your expectation too well, your dreaming mind might just comply and supply you with a dream that seems to be a lucid dream, but you are merely _dreaming_ that you are lucid.  More on that later, if I can find the time (or the audience -- I doubt false lucids would be a hot topic on this site).

Don’t know if any of this made sense, as, believe it or not, I was trying to be brief, but I hope I said enough to fuel some thought…

----------


## Avalanche

I personally don't think there is much difference between things you can do in lucids. Like how you said changing the dream environment is more challenging than simply flying. I don't think that's the case. I think the line that separates easy and difficult is the line that separates normal from impossible.

We cannot fly, and we cannot change the landscape. We can move and walk and speak to people. Now in dreams, we can fly, etc, and we can still talk to people and walk. So surely flying and landscape changing (amoung other things that are impossible) would be harder to do and imagine then just walking and talking?

I think doing the impossible stuff, all of it, is in it's own section of toughness. Flying has so many senstations, and landscape changing is little more than visual and some tactile. Impossible things are all unique, but all difficult. It's the simple things like walking through the dreamscape which are the simpler things.

TL;DR All impossible things are hard to pull off, there are no easy to do impossible things, from making an apple appear to accidentally-ing the moon.

----------


## Sageous

Nicely said, Origami; and I agree with you on many levels!

But maybe the real question is: does LD'ing allow us to stretch the "impossible" to the point where we step beyond it? Meaning that the impossible in waking life is much different than the impossible in dreaming.   If that's the case, then there is where self-awareness truly comes into play.

Make sense?  Not sure myself...

----------


## Mzzkc

Finally have a chance to reply.





> Mzzkc:
> 
> Great theory, but can I attempt to add a corollary to it?
> 
> You left out two key factors to dream control:  self-awareness and memory.



Hmm, I'm not sure that I did (as I'll explain to you shortly), for self-awareness and memory seem to me ways to do the manipulation and shifts that I mentioned.





> Personally I believe self-awareness is vastly more important to dream control than, well, _anything_.  During a dream, to be aware of who _you really are_, that this is a dream of your creation, and that this body you are occupying is simply another dream character created by you  is all you need to have complete control over the dream.



I agree to a point. You cannot deny that the self-awareness you're talking about comes with its own set of schematic associations, namely "anything is possible and everything is simple." These underlying, realized expectations put you in a very high seat of power and control over your lucids due to their inherent nature.





> I don’t just mean small DC manipulations like flying, I mean the big stuff like changing the dream environment completely, exploring new worlds that might counter anything you thought about in the waking world, and actually contradicting any expectations you might have had coming in to the dream.



That's right. Due to the strength and absoluteness of the expectations that come with your self-awareness, things tend to be a lot simpler, as all you need to do is apply focus to achieve your goals.  





> There, I feel, is where dream control really lies.  Attention is a critical tool, of course, but it is only a facet of self-awareness.



I wouldn't be so bold to say that attention is a facet of anything. Really, it's a beast all its own, as attention can shift, flow, or change with a thought. 

Speaking of thoughts. . . 





> And memory?  Memory is another very important tool often overlooked -- mostly because it is often “shut off” during the dream.  If you can remember in a dream that this body you are in is just an avatar, and your real body is sleeping in its bed somewhere, you already halfway to self-awareness.



Memory, simple recall, is a longstanding tool used to direct attention and focus. It's an important tool, yes; one that's key to performing those shifts in attention I referred to in the OP. Archetype control, for instance, provides an excellent example of how to use memory to direct focus. But what might hit closer to home is your own statement: "If you can remember in a dream that this body you are in is just an avatar, and your real body is sleeping in its bed somewhere, you already halfway to self-awareness." What you're doing here, at a base level, is using memory to activate a certain set of expectations, the ones that come with self-awareness.





> I personally have never put much credence in expectation during my LD’s; and yet I’ve had more than a few LD’s packed with enormous control.



Ah, but you have. When you're self-aware, you expect and believe that anything is possible, and so all things are possible when you simply focus on what you want to do.





> Indeed, expectation can lead a dreamer down a very bad path:  If you set your expectation too well, your dreaming mind might just comply and supply you with a dream that seems to be a lucid dream, but you are merely _dreaming_ that you are lucid.  More on that later, if I can find the time (or the audience -- I doubt false lucids would be a hot topic on this site).



I find what you're saying here interesting. I can't say I necessarily agree with the premise, as of yet, but I'm more than open to hearing more of your thoughts on it.





> Don’t know if any of this made sense, as, believe it or not, I was trying to be brief, but I hope I said enough to fuel some thought…



You did, but most of it isn't anything I didn't consider when I put together the theory. As I've been saying, expectation and attention are the key components in determining dream formation. Understanding how dreams are formed let's you understand how to consciously form them, i.e. what all dream control is. 

I can't stress enough how important that concept is to this whole theory. Really, more than anything, this is a applicable theory on how dreams are formed. It's not a form of dream control, it _is_ dream control at its atomic level.

Of course, you'd be right if you said memory played a part in that process, but it does so at a higher level than attention and expectation, as it's a nothing more than a tool used to manipulate the two and typically manifests itself through schematic associations. As such I didn't mention it explicitly, but lumped it in with ways to manipulate expectation and shift attention. 

Self-awareness, on the other hand, doesn't fit into the dream formation criteria in any way that I can see. After all, I'm sure we can both agree that self-awareness isn't required for one to dream.

----------


## Dark_Merlin

This is quite an interesting concept, I haven't read the links but I did read BillyBob's tutorial - I've read it before and it's possibly my favourite control tutorial on here. 

So basically everything that creates an archetype, creates an expectation, which directs your focus? I'm struggling a little to wrap my head around it all  :tongue2:

----------


## Avalanche

Well little kids have wild imaginations. The monster is still in the closet, if you try hard enough you can make things move with your mind, and you can create fantastic drawings all day.

When we grow up, we gain experience, and learn that certain things don't work, can't happen, aren't possible. That's what hinders us I think. Though we learn in LDs that we can do that stuff, so it does get easier.

----------


## Sageous

> You cannot deny that the self-awareness you're talking about comes with its own set of schematic associations, namely "anything is possible and everything is simple." These underlying, realized expectations put you in a very high seat of power and control over your lucids due to their inherent nature.



Yes I can, and will. 

Mzzkc, I think you may have completely missed what I was saying about self-awareness, so I’ll try one more time, and then I will give up:

Self-awareness has _nothing_ to do with expectation.  Let me repeat that: self-awareness has _nothing_ to do with expectation.  You may wish it to do so, to keep your unifying theory to one line, but you cannot.  You may try to belittle it by calling it a simple result of your schematic associations, but it is not.  By any measure.

I did not once, ever, say that self-awareness “comes with its own set of schematic associations, namely ‘anything is possible and everything is simple,’" I’m not sure where you got that from my post.  Self-awareness certainly opens the door for you to intellectually, during the dream, remember that anything is possible, because you know through self-awareness that what you are in it is all a dream of your creation, but that is _not_ due to a set of schematic associations or pre-programmed expectations or any other important-sounding terms.  We are not pocket calculators, Mzzkc, we are sentient beings, and it is self-awareness, not expectations or schema, that make us that way.  Don’t confuse the tools we use to understand our big picture with the big picture itself.  

Self-awareness is, simply, awareness that you exist in your world and, because of that existence, have an influence on your world.  No more, no less.  It is not a product of anything, and it in no shape or form is a result or cause of expectation.  It is simply awareness that You, with an upper-case “Y,” exist -- there is an “I” in the room, and, even in waking reality, that “I” has something to do with the room.  And that “I” is not the solution to a group of equations, functions, or whatever; it simply is.  No more.  Now, if you are willing to work with that, try rereading my post with that in mind and see if you can understand what I meant by self-awareness.  If you can’t, then I give up.  If you assure me you can, and then you come back with the same attempt to install it into, or dismiss as not a part of, your formula, then I promise I will also give up.





> As I've been saying, expectation and attention are the key components in determining dream formation. Understanding how dreams are formed let's you understand how to consciously form them, i.e. what all dream control is.



Maybe here is where our misunderstanding lies: In all honesty, I  don’t give a crap about dream formation. Never did.  For me LD’ing is a state of consciousness, and the dream itself is secondary -- the dream is sort of the runway from which the LD flight takes off.  Dream formation is a thing that my dreaming mind takes care of for me, and is often the thing I rebel hardest against.  On that note, you may have misunderstood my statements about memory as well, though everything you wrote about it is completely true on its own.  I am am not talking about using memory to manipulate archetypes or what have you. I am talking about maintaining your conscious memory in a dream to remember who you are and what it is you want to do in this current conscious state.  Period.  Please don’t attach another explanation to that statement -- trust me when I assure you I have read all about archetypes, expectation, schema etc, too, and yes, they are very important to normal dreaming.  They are _not_, however, fundamental to advanced lucid dreaming.  They are important, sure, because they comprised the initial dream environment,  but to me they represent not laws but hurdles to the higher consciousness that LD’ing promises.  To make them,_ and nothing else_, the law is to reduce LD’ing to a biological function that cannot be improved upon.  For me, that is not true, and certainly not very appealing.

Notice I've said nothing about attention.  That's because you got that right on the money.  Attention is indeed fundamental to LD'ing, in every way you said, and shifts in attention are indeed the way to change your dream.  I tend to wander from your theory a bit when I consider attention more a quality than a function; in other words, you need to maintain attention to your state of consciousness and to, yes, your self-awareness, in order to have any ability to manipulate (or completely step away from) your dream.  But that could just be semantics.  

So that's my defense of my corollary.  I doubt you'll like it, but I hope that you'll give it some thought before you set about trying to fit everything I said into your existing theory.  After all, isn't it more important to revise things like this than it is to stand by them, no matter what?

Enough words.  Time for a nap...

----------


## Mzzkc

*sigh* You seem to have misunderstood me and appear to be doing exactly what you've accused me of doing. I'm going to try to explain myself in as plain a way possible, so that my position may be better understood.

I never claimed self-awareness was anything except self-awareness. I claimed self-awareness brought about its own set of expectations. It would not be the result of these expectations; it would be the cause of them.

But you claim: 



> [Self-awareness] is not a product of anything, and it in no shape or form is a result or cause of expectation. It is simply awareness that You, with an upper-case “Y,” exist -- there is an “I” in the room, and, even in waking reality, that “I” has something to do with the room. And that “I” is not the solution to a group of equations, functions, or whatever; it simply is.



Right after you say: 



> Self-awareness is, simply, awareness that you exist in your world and, *because of that existence, have an influence on your world.*



This an expectation _you_ have about self-awareness. It's there, whether you consciously admit it or not. You can't help it, no person can help it, as that's just the way the brain deals with information. Schema, expectation, is a constant throughout life, and it exists within all thoughts and ideas. In essence, it defines our subjective reality.

Yes, I'm 'reducing' everything to a biological function, because really, that's all I can accurately work with. This theory was never meant to include any spiritual phenomena, it is simply what it is: a theory on how to control dreams based on observed scientific information and personal experiences and testing. You can feel free to disregard it if it doesn't fit in with your belief system, but the scientific research backing it up is real enough.

And memory? That too I can 'reduce' to a biological function that aids in lucid dreaming. As it so happens, the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, responsible for working memory (the stuff that makes remembering goals and consciously directing attention possible), and one of the few areas of the brain observed to be deactivated during REM, is thought to become active during lucid dreaming. This seems to imply that conscious control of lucid dreams is, indeed, a biological function. Hence, my theory builds from a biological premise.

I understand if you don't like this, but it's not supposed to be limiting, as the intent was to enable everything conceivable as a possibility. If that's not enough for someone, then I'm sorry, but that's all I can empirically offer.

But if it's worth anything to you, I do try to push beyond biological limits. Unfortunately, everything I've experienced so far can still be explained by something biological. Still, I try not to have beliefs of any kind, as something I've learned over time is that nothing, _nothing_, can be known. The best anyone can do is guess and suppose. That's what I've presented here: a guess. Don't believe it, but don't discount it either.

----------


## Sageous

> *sigh* You seem to have misunderstood me and appear to be doing exactly what you've accused me of doing. I'm going to try to explain myself in as plain a way possible, so that my position may be better understood.



Okay Mzzkc, as promised, I give up.

I will. though, say one more time that self-awareness is a condition of consciousness, and sentient life itself; I have never considered it a belief. Nobody should. That you’ve decided that I consider self-awareness a belief tells me quite a bit, and tells me there’s no point right now in even trying.  That you are depending on science for your theory, given how unbelievably little science has done with dreams, only compounds things.  So I seriously give.

Just one more quick nit to pick, in the name of furthering this actually very interesting thread:  





> This an expectation _you_ have about self-awareness. It's there, whether you consciously admit it or not. You can't help it, no person can help it, as that's just the way the brain deals with information. Schema, expectation, is a constant throughout life, and it exists within all thoughts and ideas. In essence, it defines our subjective reality.



Doesn’t that define metaphor?  I would think that we need metaphor to define realty -- in other words, schema is what we plan, our expectations, but metaphor is what we draw from to describe what we saw (and indeed what we planned in those schema in the first place).  Don’t know if that matters, but it was niggling at me while I was dropping all those words on self-awareness, so I figured I would mention it. Metaphor is what we use to understand our dreaming experience, so shouldn't it be included in the whole dream control scenario?

Can I leave you with one caveat?  As I said it before, if your expectations are the things that drive your dreaming, then you create for yourself a very good chance that your dreaming mind will supply you with non-lucid dreams _about_ being lucid in dreams.  Stick too heavily to this mechanical and remarkably vague science, and you will end up with mechanical dreams that, after you wake up, you’ll consider lucid.  And you’ll have missed the whole show.

So good luck with your unified theory. At its core it is most excellent.  I have a feeling that, should it bring you to advanced LD’ing, you’ll learn on your own the importance of self-awareness -- whether the scientists have a gauge for it or not. Also, if you master LD’ing, you’ll eventually get it, whether you like it now or not. I have a feeling you will…

p.s. Plenty can be known.  When you learn to open yourself to that fact, your world will change.  I promise.

----------


## Mzzkc

=/

Please read what I write, not what you think I wrote.

Never did I call self-awareness a belief. I do understand what it is at a conceptual level, even if you don't think I do.

What I said was:




> You can feel free to disregard it if it doesn't fit in with your belief system, but the scientific research backing it up is real enough.



Belief system, defined simply: "A set of beliefs about how the world works, and/or how it ought to work."

In context, my statement was most closely a reference to this:




> Personally I believe self-awareness is vastly more important to dream control than, well, _anything_.  During a dream, to be aware of who _you really are_, that this is a dream of your creation, and that this body you are occupying is simply another dream character created by you  is all you need to have complete control over the dream.




As for this:




> That you are depending on science for your theory, given how unbelievably little science has done with dreams, only compounds things.



I'm not relying on "science" so much as I am on competent, verifiable, and oftentimes peer-reviewed observations. Pooling together information from reliable sources of information is a much better option than simply stabbing at the dark with my own resources and taking everything I perceive as fact. I'm not saying this is what you suggest I do; I'm simply making the point that to limit yourself to your own observation is a less than ideal approach to seeking understanding.






> Can I leave you with one caveat?  As I said it before, if your expectations are the things that drive your dreaming, then you create for yourself a very good chance that your dreaming mind will supply you with non-lucid dreams _about_ being lucid in dreams.  Stick too heavily to this mechanical and remarkably vague science, and you will end up with mechanical dreams that, after you wake up, you’ll consider lucid.  And you’ll have missed the whole show.



Hmm, I think I understand your point here. And I'll work immediately to address the issue, but probably not in a way you'd approve of. XP






> p.s. Plenty can be known.  When you learn to open yourself to that fact, your world will change.  I promise.



Ah, I see it now.

Subjectively, yes. Objectively, no.

But since all reality is perceived subjectively. . . well, you get the rest.


I'm going to go ahead and thank you for this discussion, even with the misunderstandings. Believe it or not, I am considering everything you said and will be working with the ideas you've presented in my own way. More than that, I've taken more from this talk than I do most.

However, I do have some questions for you that I'd like answered before I move forward:

After you achieve self-awareness in your dream-state, do you, or do you not, believe/know that all things are possible?

Or is it more basic than that? Meaning, that you simply believe/know that you are capable of influencing the state you are in according to your will?

I would very much like a 'yes' or 'no' response to each of those. Please feel free to explain in more detail, however.

----------


## Sageous

Mzzck:

This conversation has been most enjoyable, and worthwhile -- thanks for your patience!

Now for some quick answers to your two questions…





> =/
> After you achieve self-awareness in your dream-state, do you, or do you not, believe/know that all things are possible?



 Once fully self-aware in a dream I believe that all things are possible_ within the realm of my dreaming mind_. In other words, I am confident that whatever my dreaming mind can produce is certainly within my creative grasp; and, like most people’s, a dreaming mind can produce a lot.  So sure, if I want to take a quick trip to one of Saturn’s moons (very cool, BTW), I know without a doubt that my dreaming mind will oblige.  However, I know of course that I am not actually taking a trip anywhere, save through my own imagination.  Also, to take it one step further, very strong self-awareness (_and_ memory, _and_ attention) in a dream allows me to “know” that I can attempt, as is my current wont, to try to peek beyond the edges of my dreaming mind’s capabilities, to look for things that defy metaphor (_and_ expectation, _and_ schema), and, who knows, maybe defy reality itself (aka: transcendence; but that is a topic for some other time & thread).  To date that’s been an incredibly hard task, but I’m still trying.  So I suppose the answer is “yes,” I know that all things relative to my dreaming mind are possible.





> Or is it more basic than that? Meaning, that you simply believe/know that you are capable of influencing the state you are in according to your will?



Not sure I understand the question, and I have a feeling I may have already answered it above, but I guess I would have to say that no, it’s not more basic than that, but yes, with strong awareness comes the knowledge, or at least confidence, that I (aka the self-aware “I”) have the capability to influence my current state of consciousness. Keep in mind that holding this kind of "belief" too tightly during waking life runs the risk of my dreaming mind obliging me with an utterly non-lucid dream filled with my dream character "me" influencing my "state" (this actually has happened to me a few times).  Again, as in the waking world, confidence in and actual ability to do something can be two separate things altogether.  

I hope those two answers helped, or at least made some sense.  Good luck in your explorations.

Sageous

----------


## Mzzkc

Thanks.

That's all I needed to know. =)

----------


## Maria92

> Soooo, are you guys understanding this, or are implications this theory has on _all_ dream control not getting through?
> 
> Or is it all just tl;dr and no one cares enough about the subject to actually learn something about it?
> 
> Feedback would be appreciated so I can decide whether or not I want to put something more comprehensive together.



 :drool: 

The light! I see it! Oh my god the sense. It's making sense everywhere!

----------


## Mzzkc

Sageous, and anyone else who might care, I think you'd be interested to know I worked with some ideas you helped inspire recently and managed to put together and successfully test a method for achieving total control in every LD a few nights ago. I'm gonna leave out the details of the method since I doubt there's anyone here besides maybe Mario who'd understand the process, and fewer still who'd even benefit from that knowledge.

Just wanted to say thanks, is all.





> The light! I see it! Oh my god the sense. It's making sense everywhere!



XP

We should really continuing working on that other project. Do you know when Wolven is typically on?

----------


## Maria92

> We should really continuing working on that other project. Do you know when Wolven is typically on?



He's usually in chat around early morning sort of time.

----------


## MadMonkey

OMG All the puzzle peices just fell into place for me. I had already read your tutorial on archetypal control and some of the linked threads so I already understood how it all works but after rereading it all together and think about it it all makes sense now. The last puzzle peice was what you said about attention. Expectation alone wont always do it. Its not until you focus your attention on the expectation and none of the other crap thats holding you back does it become beleif. Then you are in control. 
 ::banana::

----------


## NightSpy2

Hmm. I read this a while back. But I'm wondering. Would this work well for dream incubation?
To make sure my dream is focused on one thing? Thoughts? If it could, could you explain how please? I really need to know haha.

----------


## Sageous

> Sageous, and anyone else who might care, I think you'd be interested to know I worked with some ideas you helped inspire recently and managed to put together and successfully test a method for achieving total control in every LD a few nights ago. I'm gonna leave out the details of the method since I doubt there's anyone here besides maybe Mario who'd understand the process, and fewer still who'd even benefit from that knowledge.



That's great news, Mzzkc, nice to know I helped.  Sad to hear though that your new method is beyond my comprehension or use; not quite sure how/why you believe that.  Maybe you could post it anyway, and let us decide for ourselves whether it is simply too far above our tiny minds to understand?

----------


## SuddenGun007

Just read through all of the links (which are a fantastic must read source of food for thought), and the discussion of self-awareness vs expectation (Schema). You have inspired me, thank you! Keep up the good reads guys, people do read it!

----------


## Mzzkc

> That's great news, Mzzkc, nice to know I helped.  Sad to hear though that your new method is beyond my comprehension or use; not quite sure how/why you believe that.  Maybe you could post it anyway, and let us decide for ourselves whether it is simply too far above our tiny minds to understand?



The method itself is theoretically usable by anyone, but actually knowing how it works won't be beneficial to them unless they're already extremely good at manipulating schema. I'll get around to posting it one of these days, but you're already well acquainted with the high level concept, even if you don't want to accept the mechanics of it. PM me if you'd like to have a further discussion on the matter or want to know exactly how the method works. But if our previous conversation is any indicator, I'm not sure you'll like what I have to say.






> Hmm. I read this a while back. But I'm wondering. Would this work well for dream incubation?
> To make sure my dream is focused on one thing? Thoughts? If it could, could you explain how please? I really need to know haha.



Hard to say. A good tool I've found for general purpose dream incubation is strong intent, which itself is a way of focusing attention and expectation, so I guess you could say it has some bearing on that, but that might be stretching things a bit beyond the scope of this thread.

----------


## Sageous

> The method itself is theoretically usable by anyone, but actually knowing how it works won't be beneficial to them unless they're already extremely good at manipulating schema. I'll get around to posting it one of these days, but you're already well acquainted with the high level concept, even if you don't want to accept the mechanics of it. PM me if you'd like to have a further discussion on the matter or want to know exactly how the method works. But if our previous conversation is any indicator, I'm not sure you'll like what I have to say.



So Mzzkc, do you believe in fate? Luck?  Me neither, but I'll tell you this:  I had just finished a long indignant post excoriating you for continuing to make unfair assumptions about my (and other readers here) intelligence and apparent prejudice toward terms like schema manipulation.  But then I accidentally deleted the whole thing, and for once I didn't release a primal scream afterward. 

Why? Because the deletion was a good thing.  Because I'm sure that when you're ready to share this new method of dream control, you will.  It's not my problem if you feel we're not ready (or willing) for it yet.  

That said, here's why I got a bit pissed before that: I am forever curious about anything new, and, after getting acquainted with your obvious knowledge -- and curiosity -- I actually hoped you might have something of value that maybe I hadn't seen before.  That's why I visit this forum.  This is not rocket science we're doing here -- it may be something far more complex, and revolutionary.  To decide for others that a new method is above them is frankly unfair, and does a lot to slow up the process of making LD's commonplace.  But in the end that's your call, not mine.  Shame on me for assuming otherwise.

 I will admit that I got a bit snide in my response above; bygones, I suppose.  However, note that I _never_ asked about the mechanics, just the method.  I only wanted to know what you had discovered, to compare it with methods I thought I had discovered as well, back during the years I still cared about things like schema manipulation. 

So maybe someday we'll see that method...

----------


## Mzzkc

> So Mzzkc, do you believe in fate? Luck?  Me neither, but I'll tell you this:  I had just finished a long indignant post excoriating you for continuing to make unfair assumptions about my (and other readers here) intelligence and apparent prejudice toward terms like schema manipulation.  But then I accidentally deleted the whole thing, and for once I didn't release a primal scream afterward.



I'm not making assumptions about people's intelligence, just their current knowledge. The only reason I thought Mario could understand it above anyone else is because I've worked with him 1-on-1 for a good bit of time now dealing with the topics and exercises that led to the conception of this "new" method. I use new loosely because really it's just an application of pre-established ideas.





> Why? Because the deletion was a good thing.  Because I'm sure that when you're ready to share this new method of dream control, you will.  It's not my problem if you feel we're not ready (or willing) for it yet.



I have every intention of sharing it, but this isn't the place to do it. It requires its own thread and its own presentation, as the material needs to be taught properly to be effective.





> That said, here's why I got a bit pissed before that: I am forever curious about anything new, and, after getting acquainted with your obvious knowledge -- and curiosity -- I actually hoped you might have something of value that maybe I hadn't seen before.  That's why I visit this forum.  This is not rocket science we're doing here -- it may be something far more complex, and revolutionary.  To decide for others that a new method is above them is frankly unfair, and does a lot to slow up the process of making LD's commonplace.  But in the end that's your call, not mine.  Shame on me for assuming otherwise.
> 
> I will admit that I got a bit snide in my response above; bygones, I suppose.  However, note that I _never_ asked about the mechanics, just the method.  I only wanted to know what you had discovered, to compare it with methods I thought I had discovered as well, back during the years I still cared about things like schema manipulation. 
> 
> So maybe someday we'll see that method...



You can rest assured, the stuff I figured out isn't likely anything that will seem new to you. In fact, you'll probably accuse me of stealing or something, especially if all you see is the thread I plan to make, since that thread won't deal with the mechanics of the technique (which are vastly more interesting in my opinion, but, again, not beneficial knowledge [seriously shoot me a PM if you want to know the method and how it works, I'm more than willing to share all that, but not in the public eye just yet]).

Edit: As an aside, I do want you to know, Sageous, that despite what the appearances may be, I do like you and find you and your ideas very interesting. Even if some of our views seem diametrically opposed, I'm sure we'll be able to learn from each other if we keep an open mind about things. Hell, you've already helped me immensely in some regards that go beyond LDing. I'm sure there're some things I could help _you_ with in that respect, but I feel I'd need a better medium than this forum to share what I've learned.

----------


## Baron Samedi

expectation and focus. Interesting.I never really thought about this concept. I may think about it for a few days before I really can respond

----------


## hermine_hesse

I've been reading all this material and letting it roll around in my brain for a couple of days, and it makes sense to me.  I haven't had a lucid that past few days, but as I look back on my non-lucids, I can see schemas and focus at work.

Example: In my dream last night I am in an airport.  I pick up a cup from off of the ground and then sit down somewhere else w/ the cup in front of me.  I am focusing on the cup and suddenly people walking by are throwing change in it.  I look up and out of nowhere from all different directions all these New Orleans gutter punks are walking towards me, then sit down next to me.  One breaks out a guitar, one starts passing a bottle of whiskey around...

Just by focusing on a cup on the ground, my subconscious built a whole "your a homeless kid in New Orleans"  scenario even though it had nothing to with my location.

----------


## The Cusp

> Hmm. I read this a while back. But I'm wondering. Would this work well for dream incubation?
> To make sure my dream is focused on one thing? Thoughts? If it could,  could you explain how please? I really need to know haha.



It certainly could.  Dream control is applicable both to dreams and  waking life, so it should also apply to the transition between the two.   ALthough making sure your dream is only focused on one thing is a bit  of a stretch.  Every archetype is connected to possibly thousands of  other archetypes, creating a humongous maze in which it's very easy and  likely to take a wrong turn.






> I have every intention of sharing it, but this isn't the place to do it. It requires its own thread and its own presentation, as the material needs to be taught properly to be effective.



Well I certainly want to hear about it.  I've got that Nature of Dream control sub forum in the user forums you're welcome to use.  I  certainly haven't done much with it yet.

----------


## Ctharlhie

> I've got that Nature of Dream control sub forum in the user forums you're welcome to use.  I  certainly haven't done much with it yet.



Maybe it would be a better time when all the hacking fiasco is cleared up but I would really like to see that control subforum up and running  :smiley:

----------


## Burke

While I may not be a natural lucid dreamer I do find myself a sort of "natural" at dream control itself. I've never had anything I _couldn't_ do in a dream. If I wanted to do it, I simply did it. Around the 20 LD mark or so I noticed that all I did was expect something and it would happen. After reading your post I also realize that I naturally had a focus on whatever I was thinking about, which is what I would be expecting. For example, if I wanted to make a fire ball I would expect fire to appear in my hand, and at the same time I would naturally visualize what fire looks like and how it feels. 

I've always tell people to expect it and it will happen. Now I realize why many of them reported that it did not work; They were not focusing on it. I never really considered that there was more to it than just expecting it and imagining how it is perceived by the senses, but you have to focus as well. Thanks for sharing this  :smiley:

----------


## lily

Before I give my reaction to the underlying thesis in your post "Dream control is achieved through the manipulation of expectation via shifts in attention." I'd like to explain a few things about myself, first.

I'm not a very active dream views goer, I wander in from time to time and I enjoy seeing what others do. I am not consciously focused at least not recently on the ideas, the techniques, or the theories on a regular basis. I am curious about what others do, in fact, but I have developed my own technique far before I ever found dreamviews. Technically, probably before dreamviews existed. The one time in my life I consciously made the willed effort to start lucidly dream and control those dreams I was young and having nightmares.. I just had the simple wish to make those nightmares stop. I was probably ~10-12 years old. I was moderately successful.. I did not have the benefit of any guidance but managed to first shift my conscious desires into unconscious desires.. meaning my conscious desire to become aware of, and exert control over my dreams gradually become more successful as I spent time before bed focusing on that one wish. I've never really expressed or thought about 'how' the things happen. Once I gained enough control to consistently end and shift my nightmares, I stopped consciously focusing on these aspects of dreaming. My unconscious mind continued to practice and develop lucidity and dream control, though. Now, lucidity and control simply occur at night. Sometimes I remember it. I can remember various stages of dream control.. the awkward control of fighting against expectations, preventative control .. the struggle of focusing on the wish for something to NOT happen, and learning from these naive attempts that focusing on the things I am trying to avoid ultimately fails because my mind is reinforcing the bad instead of constructing something good. Now a days, and it's been many years of practice, I do not try to control something, I just do. I don't seek out lucidity or control, it happens because my unconscious mind enjoys it.

As a relative outsider that nonetheless does use dream control, what you are saying sounds very accurate to me, and although I would not have thought to express it how you have, it even seems like it should be quite obvious.

I would enjoy hearing more of your thoughts on the subject, as well. I think you are onto something and if this is not a well understood idea then it certainly deserves some more discussion.

I did not have trouble understanding your post so far, although I did not yet read the links. Could I trouble you or someone else that has read them to summarize them? I think this post would receive more attention if that were done.

----------


## Oceanboy

Brain hurts a little but im sure this bit of focused reading should help me a little.

----------


## Mzzkc

Response time. XP





> expectation and focus. Interesting.I never really thought about this concept. I may think about it for a few days before I really can respond



Looking forward to your thoughts when you get the chance to share them.





> Well I certainly want to hear about it.  I've got that Nature of Dream control sub forum in the user forums you're welcome to use.  I  certainly haven't done much with it yet.



I think I posted the thread recently.





> Before I give my reaction to the underlying thesis in your post "Dream control is achieved through the manipulation of expectation via shifts in attention." I'd like to explain a few things about myself, first.
> 
> I'm not a very active dream views goer, I wander in from time to time and I enjoy seeing what others do. I am not consciously focused at least not recently on the ideas, the techniques, or the theories on a regular basis. I am curious about what others do, in fact, but I have developed my own technique far before I ever found dreamviews. Technically, probably before dreamviews existed. The one time in my life I consciously made the willed effort to start lucidly dream and control those dreams I was young and having nightmares.. I just had the simple wish to make those nightmares stop. I was probably ~10-12 years old. I was moderately successful.. I did not have the benefit of any guidance but managed to first shift my conscious desires into unconscious desires.. meaning my conscious desire to become aware of, and exert control over my dreams gradually become more successful as I spent time before bed focusing on that one wish. I've never really expressed or thought about 'how' the things happen. Once I gained enough control to consistently end and shift my nightmares, I stopped consciously focusing on these aspects of dreaming. My unconscious mind continued to practice and develop lucidity and dream control, though. Now, lucidity and control simply occur at night. Sometimes I remember it. I can remember various stages of dream control.. the awkward control of fighting against expectations, preventative control .. the struggle of focusing on the wish for something to NOT happen, and learning from these naive attempts that focusing on the things I am trying to avoid ultimately fails because my mind is reinforcing the bad instead of constructing something good. Now a days, and it's been many years of practice, I do not try to control something, I just do. I don't seek out lucidity or control, it happens because my unconscious mind enjoys it.
> 
> As a relative outsider that nonetheless does use dream control, what you are saying sounds very accurate to me, and although I would not have thought to express it how you have, it even seems like it should be quite obvious.
> 
> I would enjoy hearing more of your thoughts on the subject, as well. I think you are onto something and if this is not a well understood idea then it certainly deserves some more discussion.
> 
> I did not have trouble understanding your post so far, although I did not yet read the links. Could I trouble you or someone else that has read them to summarize them? I think this post would receive more attention if that were done.



Thanks for taking the time to post this. It's always enlightening to hear experiences from those who are self-taught. I don't know what you'd like to hear about specifically. This little thesis, which (I agree) should be apparent to anyone with introspection skills and a good number of LDs under their belt, is just the tip of a rather large iceberg, so it's difficult for me to delve down without a known direction.

Also, I like your idea of having a synopsis for each of the links. I think I'll work on update to this guide that includes that. Thanks again.





> Brain hurts a little but im sure this bit of focused reading should help me a little.



Haha, I hope so.

----------

