# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity > Wake Initiated Lucid Dreams (WILD) >  >  Need a way to get inward focus during WILD

## bigCHEESE77

When I try to WILD (my last try being as of 35 minutes ago), I am too aware of my body. The aches and stiffness of my body seem to scream in my head until I just can't help but quit the WILD. I need a way to get my focus off of these things. I've tried V-WILD, but I just can't get the hang of it. So I want to know what works best for the people who WILD to get their attention off their body. For me, counting, visualizing, and focus on breathing just don't work. It might be that I will just have get over the things that just don't work and use them anyway, hoping that eventually they will work. I'm willing to accept that, but before I do, I want to see if anyone else has the same problem as me and/or a solution for it.

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## starry eyes

I pay attention to a visual spot which tends to form between my eyes, through which I can see tiny things. While I am doing that, I just let my body go numb from lack of movement. I know I am there when my vision becomes crystallized into facets, sort of like how an insect might see things.

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## SonatArctica

i use the HIT
works for me the best

 ::banana::

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## bigCHEESE77

is HIT hypnagogic imagery? And if it is, how long does it take you to get the the HI?
In otherwords, can you elaborate?

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## debussy

Have you tried the "stop, drop and roll"-way? It worked for me by accident the first time I tried WILD when I had just given up and thought I'd failed.

First lie with your arms over your head for maybe 10 minutes, this is more comfortable then having your arms down, try to relax. This also causes your muscles to actually build up tension so that when you put them down you'll get more relaxed. 
So after 10 minutes you put your arms down on your sides and build up the roll-signal untill it becomes real uncomfortable. 
Then eventually when you just can't handle it anymore and it's completely unbarable, turn on your side and lie in foetusposition (not to crawled up). Stretch your body, you'll probably feel very good, sort of like your whole body yawns. Then focus on dreaming, eventually you'll hear sounds and get HI.

Since you seem to get real uncomfortable already this could work, it makes your body "take the chance" and fall asleep quickly enough for you to notice the hypnagogic state.

Still, during all this you should follow this pattern  "1, (breath in slow, breath out quicker), I'm dreaming, 2..." etc.

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## SonatArctica

@debussy

huu  ::shock:: 
i noticed the same effect tonite...what a coincidence you mention this - maybe a connection through dreams?
ok, i´ll stop before i get arrested by Shift and Co  ::D: ´



@bigCHEESEy77

yes, HIT = hypnagogic imagery
it varies how long it takes me to see the first signs of HH but the more relaxed you are the quicker you will enter hypnogogia 
try to combine this with debussy´s teq - i´ll do it 2nite


thx debussy for mentioning!  ::banana::

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## Robot_Butler

Instead of trying to build a visualization from scratch, try using a memory.  Just recall a vivid memory and relive it in your mind over and over again.  Make it something tactile that engages your body and your attention.  

If you can't come up with a good vivid memory, take some time in the next few days to create one.  Go do something out of the ordinary and memorable.  Be sure to stay aware during the whole activity, memorizing what it feels and looks like.  Really engage the experience and file it away for later.

You could even do something really obvious or unimaginative.  Lie in your bed, then get up, run out of the house, and jog around the block.  Then, just replay that memory in your head while you WILD.

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## bigCHEESE77

sounds good. I might do that tonight with WBTB (If I can build up the will power to). How long should I stay up for the WBTB?

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## debussy

Stay up for about 30 minutes. Drink some water, goto the bathroom etc. I'd recommend reading about LD during this time, go on this website. Then back to bed.

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## bigCHEESE77

30 minutes?! wow. That's a lot more than the five minutes that I usually do (might I add the the 5 minutes never works). I guess I'll try it. So, here is the WILD technique I will use tonight.

1. Wake up around 3:30. 

2. Stay up for 30 minutes. Get a drink of water, use the restroom, stretch.

3. Lie down on back with arms above head for 10 minutes. Try to relax as much as possible using breathe in white light, breathe out all tension.

4. Bring arms down. (what should I do here?)

5. Roll to side. Breathe in, "1", breathe out, "I'm dreaming". Focus entirely on the number and the words. (this probably won't get my mind off my body, so should I do memory visualization instead? Or should I wait for HH and focus on them?)

6. get past sleep paralysis and let a dream scene form then use Malac's fast grab

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## debussy

Almost correct. But there is usually no SP this way. This is how I do it:

1. Correct

2. Correct

3. Ineed your arms up. But you start the counting/breathing here after lying still for a while and getting used to lying in the bed, get comfortable. I only count to 100 then I start over ("too much thinking" when you're up to like 437 etc.). Now don't look at any watch, just lie stil, relax, then start counting to 100 over and over again. But when you think about 10 minutes has passed you continue to the next step.

4. Bring your arms down (on each side of your body). Make sure your neck is comfortable also (it can get a little uncomfy when taking your arms down). Then you continue counting/breathing. This is the big exausting step when you build up the rollover-signal/feeling for about 15 minutes. You might experience vibrations/numbness during this step. You can even fall into SP.

5. When this feeling is too painfull you roll over on your side. Now on this step I stop counting. I only breath and focus on dreaming. But not too hard. Just think about dreaming, and notice the HI (dosen't have to be vivid pictures on your mindscreen, it can just be light and coulours). You can try to control the colours and shapes of the patterns that appear. Eventually you most likely will hear a white noise and as you hear this you'll feel yourself entering the dream.

6. You might enter complete blackness. Now you can easily think about a scenery or use the spin-technique.

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## bigCHEESE77

sounds good. I will do that tonight and post my results. I'm excited, because I've never even made it fully to SP before.

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## bigCHEESE77

dissapointment...... :Sad: . My alarm clock didnt wake me up for a WBTB, and I slept undisturbed till morning. I'll try again tonight, and make sure to turn the volume in my alarm off.

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## khh

> dissapointment....... My alarm clock didnt wake me up for a WBTB, and I slept undisturbed till morning. I'll try again tonight, and make sure to turn the volume in my alarm off.



I know that feeling. More than half of the times I try WBTB I'll turn off my alarm clock without waking up  :Sad:

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## bigCHEESE77

ok. I did the WILD last night after a little more than an hour WBTB. I don't really know what happened.
I did the arms up position and tried to count my breaths, but counting screws up my breathing, and I end us gasping for air or hyperventillating. So instead, I just played back an episode of MASH that I had watched earlier that day. It was pretty effective, and I got very relaxed. I then brought my arms down, and again didn't count breaths because of the problems it presented. Instead, I tried visualizing. I think that worked, because eventually images and short events started happening in my mind's eye (I don't get any HI on my eyelids). They were pretty vivid, and I'm not sure if these were dreamscenes forming or HH. They didn't last very long and none of them turned into dreams except for one, but because I didn't correctly transition into it, I lost lucidity. Overall, I was trying to WILD for.....umm....well....I don't know. My guess is a little less than an hour.

So, the new problem. How to tell if the dreamscenes are solid enough to transition into and how to transition into them. 

(SP never happened. I had numbness for a little bit, but I did not have any SP signs. I didn't try to move until I woke up from the dream, so I don't know if I am a signless SP person. Also, I stayed in the second position, on my back, because the roll over signal never built up, so I assumed I might have already been in SP.

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## debussy

Counting can indeed mess with your breathing and can be very boring.

If you find it difficult to count, breath and "hypnotize" yourself I suggest reading this article by adraw: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=61525

Sort of what you actually did, rather then counting, it's about "forgetting your body" and constructing a dream-film in your internal world out of memories. It works effectively since you don't put energy into supressing your whole thinkingprocess rather just focusing its direction imagining tactile sensations and such.

This morning when I did WILD I followed some of adraws advice. I didn't count anything and I didn't even have to turn on my side like I usually have to, I was just suddenly thrown into the dreamworld (and no SP). (OT: However I lost control and was thrown out, but then I turned on my side and went back again and had chained DEILD:s for about an hour).

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## Something Else

I think if you are having problems with our attention being stuck on your body, I am guessing that your problem might be that your body has too much tension and is not relaxed enough.  I haven't heard of the "stop, drop, and roll" technique before mentioned by debussy, but it seems like it could be very helpful.  On many occasions I have been laying on my back for over an hour trying to WILD, only to give up and roll over into fetal position and shortly there after find myself LDing.  I would also like to emphasize stretching.  It is really that important.  It helps for the body to become deeply relaxed.  Often times when I do WBTB (successfully) I will have stayed up for around thirty minutes, not five, and have spent at least ten of those minutes stretching.  Actually ten minutes of stretching is not even really that much, but can usually help the body achieve the minimum amount of relaxation needed for a good LD.  

As for when dream scenes being solid enough to transition into, well, you will know and just be able to do it.  When the visions typically start off, they might be very small and not very detailed.  But if you are going deeper and deeper into trance, then later waves of visions should get larger, last longer, and be more detailed.  Eventually when you have a dream scene that takes up your whole field of vision and is lasting for a little while you can just think yourself into it, just like you can think things into experience in a lucid dream.  Think of entering the dream scene as your first lucid act of the LD.  You just kind of do it, just like you do anything else in a LD.  It won't be difficult and it will feel like you kind of get sucked into the scene.  For me that is the shift from 2D to 3D.  I often enter the dream scene just by walking into it.  I often find that I am just able to move my head or something to look around the dream scene and I know I can just walk into it, because I have already moved my head.  If you have tried to enter the dream scene and it didn’t work, you just weren’t deep enough in trance.  If you are patient and can go deeper in trance then in a later wave of visualization you should be able to enter with more ease.  

Good luck.  :-)

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## Awhislyle

This post is wierd because Billybob(the LDer I respect the most) actual wrote a thread suggested using a dull ache or pain as the reference point to remind you of your own body(or whatever it was for). And that it could be very useful in that manner, try looking at his wild thread to see if you can use this to your advantage.

Edit* here it is
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=62282

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## Something Else

I read Billy Bob's informative tuturial.  He is right about what he says and his tuturial is simple and staight forward.  His thread in the link is a "general" all purpose tuturial and this thread, which is not a tuturial but answering specific points seems to me to compliment Billy Bob's tuturial very well.  Billy Bob's thread was introducing using pain as an anchor, but not "THE" anchor.  And this thread is discussing other types of anchors.  Billy Bob mentions the importance of the being relaxed, and this thread is giving bigcheese77 suggestions on how to relax his body.  How do you think they are conflicting with each other?

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## adraw

> This post is wierd because Billybob(the LDer I respect the most) actual wrote a thread suggested using a dull ache or pain as the reference point to remind you of your own body(or whatever it was for). And that it could be very useful in that manner, try looking at his wild thread to see if you can use this to your advantage.
> 
> Edit* here it is
> http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=62282



Billybob really nicely stated, that the expectations ruin the WILD attempt. But what happens, if the consciousness is not occupied anyhow? Simply it eighter passes out, or it finds something to DO. The correct way is somewhere in the middle. The key is to let the consciousness be as passive as possible by transposing it from manipulative to observative stance and later to passive stance, the stance of simple being without performing any action to prove it. Conscious participation in transition processes is unwanted and causes only disbalance. 

Therefore you have to retain its coherency using some kind of *stable* anchor. (Example of which is the pain). It has to be subtle to avoid interference with transition, and also unrelated to transition itself for the same reason. Thats why some of the people prefer to subtly observe some external source (It simply doesnt need much consciouss effort). Visualisations need conscious effort.... Thats true, but if you take into consideration, that consciouss effort is needed only at the beginning stages of visualisation and later on, creative inertia kicks in, you may make consciouss attempt more and more subtle and you may get the same result.

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## bigCHEESE77

I WILDed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEEEEEESSSSS!!!!!! I am so happy, and so hopeful. I thought I would never be able to WILD, and I had almost given up on the whole LD thing because I was having a killer dry spell. Well, dry spell over (sort of).

I would write out what happened again, but I am lazy, so I will just post the thread where I wrote about it. thanks for all the help!!!

*http://dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=79162*

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## Robot_Butler

Congratulations  :boogie:   It should get easier with practice.  At least now, you know what you're supposed to be practicing.

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## OfficerFlake

HA! Lucky Guy!

Congrats cheeze. Been fun reading and learning from this thread. We share much the same symptoms, so if you can post your exact technique, I would much appreciate it!  ::dancingcow::

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## bigCHEESE77

thanks OfficerFlake. And I'm still working on my technique. I have been using it a lot to see if it has flaws. It does. 

I use the stop drop and roll techniqe along with visualizations. So basically, I just start in stop position, and visualize for a while. Then I bring my hands down and visualize for a while. Then I turn over and visualize until I'm in a dream.

The flaw is this: when I visualize, I start out the picture then let it take off like a dream would. This happens when you're tired (WBTB). Because of this, I don't really use conscious thought that much. I just experience the visualizations. This makes it super easy to just fall asleep. I am basically letting my mind drift, so if a dream does form around me, I won't be lucid. I'm trying to fix that.

As for what to do for the visualizations, I use something that I really like/want to do. visualize something you are passionate about doing. I visualize myself flying. Make sure it is something that will take your mind off your body. Adraw's thread about this is helpful, but he talks about visualizing something like walking around your room and feeling things. To me, this is boring and doesn't get my mind off my body because it does not capture my attention or entertain me, so I have no inspiration to keep visualizing it. With flying visualization, I am involved and happily keeping my mind off my body. I'm sure other things than flying could work also, like having an epic war, swordfight, and umm....."other" activities.

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## OfficerFlake

Yeah I tried last night too. No lucidity just yet, but I am advancing... I have made it to the next step (ie: Inward Focus) just from being in the stop position.

It'll take me a while to fully get there, but I'm making it.

My technique, was to think of something i really enjoy as well. I thought of doing a parade as an officer on the parade ground... sword and all. My mind let thing exagerate for me... For example, Cadet Warrent Officer Adams is now Squadron Leader(AAFC) Adams.... I was a Cadet Under Officer at first... then after a little bit, I decided to spawn a jet on the runway... It worked! Although it was a Sukhoi 27 at first... so i just looked away and tried again. Eventually i got that F/A-18A... Then I swapped bodies with the pilot of the aircraft...

The person I was, Was CSGT James, Who is now CUO James. I am now Myself... But Air Cheif Marshall  :boogie: . So myself and james get the jets airbourne of that tiny parade ground... And do some aerobatics around Rutherford at first, and then move to Williamtown.

The whole time I was conciously saying to myself "Hey you're not a CUO! Oh well..." Acknowledging the dream. I was also trying to immerse all the senses, primarily the sense of touch (to ignore the body's sense of touch). It worked to the point that I decided to do an RC... But I was awake at the time... I moved my arms to the Drop position... And then things just fell apart after that. I lost focus on becoming lucid... ETC. ETC...

My SP, I've noticed, Is very light. I rarely feel waves... I rarely feel "Floaty" or "Heavy"... i just go numb from the extremities to the core eventually... This makes it very difficult to tell when I am to RC. Practice makes perfect!

Thanks for all the help, Especially Adraw, Whos technique has made this so much easier!

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## bigCHEESE77

OfficerFlake, which of Adraw's techniques did you use? Because if it helps you it should help me. It sounds like our WILD problems are very similar. It is nice to know someone shares my difficulties. Also, make sure to use WBTB. about one and a half hours before I normally wake up works best for me.

If you suddenly stumble on a technique or solution that miraculously fixes all your WILD problems, please PM me. I promise to do the same.

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## Exhalent

I have been having focus problems lately and never did a WILD other than DEILD. I am going to try a longer WBTB. Thank all of you for posting in this thread, and I will post results if any come of my attempt.

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## bigCHEESE77

Dissapointment.... This morning I just couldn't work up the will power to do a WBTB, so I just went back to sleep.  :Sad: 

Also, I had one of those "slap yourself in the face" moments. It was around the middle of the night, and I was dreaming about the last Harry Potter book (which I have never read). I realized I was dreaming, but I didn't even know to LD. My only thoughts were, "hey, I've never read this book before. I guess I will just watch this dream instead of reading it." I even chained the dream a couple of times to make it last longer, and the thought of LDing never occured to me. URGH!!!!

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## Something Else

Knowing that you are dreaming, but not taking control of it while being dissappointing is a sign you are going in the right direction.  Semi-lucid is not as good as lucid, but still better than mindless uncontrolled dreaming.  Good luck on future tries and congratulations on your recent success.

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## OfficerFlake

Cheese...

I started with the stop position, and just stayed like that, really.

Firstly, and most crucial (I've never made SP without it) is stretching and relaxing.

Second, I adopted that stop position, arms up behind my head, laying on my back (I usually sleep on my side... so this is weird... Helps to keep the mind awake)

Thirdly, I just let my imagination run wild, but keep the main thing the main thing... IE I make sure that I relate everything to dream... kind of hard to understand that sentance so let me elaborate. In my imagination, I imagine not only a scene, but I make the scene active, I try to get all the senses involved, in this order though: Sight, Hearing, Touch, Smell, Taste. Because the strongest is the first and so on in my dreams... So for example, my mind will toss me an idea for what I am imagining... i choose to roll with it, or ignore it and say "send it again". For example, having a Sukhoi show up on the parade ground and I specificly wanted a hornet... to dismiss and idea, I just ignore it, then imagine a new one. To accept an idea, I immerse myself in it... try to make the detail out... etc.

after not too long, consistantly reminding myself that this is all a dream (although it is my imagination....) I eventually become inwards focused... then hopefully, LD. The most important thing here is to not put to much of a concious effort into the dream... but making sure that you stay focused on relating all of it to LDing.

The last two nights I had a break from LDing, because I wasn't doing enough RC's and I need the extra sleep back.  ::D: 

So yeah hope this helps... What I've discovered is there is no need to make a rocket science out of this... just let it come natural, except immerse the senses deeper, and keep you mind on staying focused first and foremost.

Cheese, what times do you start/stop sleep and when do you WBTB and how long are you awake here? I'm trying to fine tune it myself.

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## bigCHEESE77

I get to sleep around 12. I wake up at 7, do stretches, go to the bathroom, get some water, then attempt to WILD. I then usually wake up around 9.

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## OfficerFlake

> I get to sleep around 12. I wake up at 7, do stretches, go to the bathroom, get some water, then attempt to WILD. I then usually wake up around 9.



I sleep from 1200 till 0700, I get up to WBTB at 0300 recently, but it was 0500...

Tonight I will try 0400, seems like a better choice, and I will go to sleep at 2200.

Cheers.

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## bigCHEESE77

In your original sleeping time, don't you mean 2400? Because 1200 if in the middle of noon.

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## holyhammers

Im so glad i found this thread

Everything you talked about is exactly what i go through.... i cant get my mind off my body and when i become kinda close to Sp its like I cant breathe at all and it alerts my body again...

im going to try tonight even though there are so many diffrent methods to think about but im going to go with the way you did your first WILD because we have (or had) the same promblems ill post my results

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## OfficerFlake

> In your original sleeping time, don't you mean 2400? Because 1200 if in the middle of noon.



Yeah but i wasn't using 24 hour time...

Besides, that is 0000 anyway.  :tongue2: 

Also, I LD'd last night! it was a DILD but still!  :boogie: 

DJ if you want: www.tinyurl.com/officerflake

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## bigCHEESE77

good job OfficerFlake. I don't remember any dreams last night  :Sad: .  And I also haven't tried to WILD in the past 2 days  :Sad: . I'm in a dry spell caused by laziness. I'm hoping to see an improvement in my DILDs because I am working on my prospective memory. It hasn't gone too well.

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## bigCHEESE77

Yay! semi WILD success #2!!!!!!

I was really tired today, so I decided to take a nap. I slept for about and hour and a half, then woke up. I didn't want to actually get up because that would mean I would have to change the oil in the truck, but I didn't want to keep sleeping because it would screw up my sleep schedule. So I just laid there, on the verge of sleep (because I was still really tired). I think I did lose consciousness, but I went straight into a non-lucid yet very vivid dream involving camping and an old childhood friend. I remember the dream perfectly, I just don't remember much about how or what I did to get into it.

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## bigCHEESE77

I haven't tried to WILD in a while. I'm just too tired to WBTB. I wish you could WILD without it, but it's basically impossible. However, I did try to while in a dream a couple days ago. During the WILDing in the dream, I was lucid, but then I "woke up" back into the dream. 

I'm sort of afraid to resume WILDing. I don't like to fail, I don't like to lie still for an hour trying to fight sleep, and I don't like dealing with the aches, stiffness, and itches associated with WILDing. It is really frustrating. Any advice?

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## Robot_Butler

You could try something else for a while.  Try switching to MILD.  You only have to stay awake for a brief moment or two if you do Laberge's classic MILD trick.  Save WILD for special occasions when you can go to bed early and sleep in.  

You could also try some supplements, or switch to another WILD technique to get you excited again.

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## IndigoGhost

> OfficerFlake, which of Adraw's techniques did you use? Because if it helps you it should help me. It sounds like our WILD problems are very similar. It is nice to know someone shares my difficulties. Also, make sure to use WBTB. about one and a half hours before I normally wake up works best for me.
> 
> If you suddenly stumble on a technique or solution that miraculously fixes all your WILD problems, please PM me. I promise to do the same.



Ditto on the stumbleing onto a technique deal.

I have had this problem since a year ago when i started lucid dreaming, I can DILD with no difficulty after i have my dream recall up. But for the life of me cannot leave my body alone while i'm trying to WILD.

Do you guys move your eyes to kinda look at whatever body part your mind is focusing on? Like if you think feet your eyes kinda drop and sorta look toward your feet? 

Anyway i wish you luck  :smiley:

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## bigCHEESE77

I DID IT!!!!!!!!!! A SUCCESSFUL WILD!!!!!!! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!!!!!!!!!!!
I wasn't lucid very long, but I did it!!!!!!!

Ok, so I woke up this morning sort of late, so I almost didn't try. After I went to the bathroom, I figured I was still tired so I'd give it a shot. I let my mind drift and wander. Now, I don't remember all of what happened because I fell asleep for a while afterwards, but here's the basics.

I just let my mind drift. I didn't care how bad of quality all my visualizations were (ssome of them were blocky and black and white, like the first nintendo handheld games) I just kept them up. I refused to let my mind think about my body (I was having a slight headache). When my mind started to make it's own stories, I sort of created an "imaginary friend" For each trail that my mind led me on (they were sort of like dreams, just HH steped up a notch) I told the imaginary friend why each story could'nt be real. I kept this up for who knows how long, then I fell into a dream. In the dream, I was teaching woodshop to a bunch of brats, then my imaginary friend told me it was a dream. By then, the dream was fading into blackness, but I remembered something about how blackness sometimes meant you were ready. So I opened my eyes and felt what I thought were my dream eyes AND my real eyes open up. Turned out it was just my dream eyes, and I had an FA. Because I was so sure I was awake, I didn't bother to RC. *slaps self in face* The FA dream was very long and vivid. It started with me running sort of a day care, then taking one of my business partners to steal something from a sith ship. The space ship was a frisbee with a plastic wrap cover, and I was like, "hey, how can we breathe? the plastic wrap doesn't cover the whole ship. I think I sort of knew I was dreaming then, but wasn't conscious enough to do anything about it. Later, at the sith ship, they found us and started spraying us with skunks, then I had another FA that led into blackness where I realized the whole thing was a dream. Then I went straight back into the dream, but not with lucidity. 

Overall, it was very exciting. I'm glad I've made progress, and I owe much of that progress to this thread.

Please post back! I look forward to seeing how the earlier posting people of this thread are doing.

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## Robot_Butler

:boogie:  Congratulations  :boogie: 

I like how you described slipping into a brief dream, then catching yourself and waking into a FA.  That is an important part of the process to keep in mind.  At some point in a WILD, you do fall asleep and enter a dream.  You switch over to a dream where you are dreaming of lying in bed doing your WILD.  It is hard to describe, but I think you know how it feels.

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## bigCHEESE77

Yes, I finally do know how it feels. When I first moved my dream body, it felt peculiar. It isn't really something you can describe. sort of a feeling of seperation. Anyways, my problem this time was this: when I opened my eyes, I saw a dreamscene. It was a small room, definitely not my bedroom. Then I sort of opened my eyes again, and saw a small slit of my bedroom. I'm pretty sure that this was just an FA and I didn't really open my eyes, but I'm not positive. It is especially difficult to describe V-WILD expiriences because you aren't exactly conscious and if you fall back to sleep afterwards it is sometimes hard to remember. Either way, when I had the false awakening, I gave up. I was satisfied that I was able to move my dream eyes and I felt  it was enough for the day. Had I done an RC, it would have been a much better experience, but I am still satisfied with the progress I made.

My only complaint is the not-remembering-all-of-what-I-did thing. My memory gets a bit hazy around the time where I fall into my first dream (it may not have been my first dream that my "imaginary friend" made me lucid in). The last thing I remember is rolling into the Roll position. By that point I was already getting heavy pre-dreams* I remember shifting my legs a lot and thinking it might ruin the WILD. Then the pre-dreams took over, and that was where I lost lucidity. The pre-dreams turned into a dream, and my "imaginary friend" made me lucid. Again, I have found that my problem is trying to remain conscious in the pre-dreams.  If I retain too much consious, critical thought during my WILD attempt or even trying to sleep, I won't get any progress. I will just lay there and be awake and alert. So I have to give myself over to the pre-dreams almost completely. 


*pre-dream is what I've decided to call the visualizations that occur mid-WILD, when you don't have to consciously work at keeping the visualizations going. However, you still are awake during them and the visualizations are only as vivid as you could consciously produce them, so they are not dreams.  Sort of like HI or a random train of thought, except in story form.  I, personally, almost always experience pre-dreams when I go to sleep regularly.

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## IndigoGhost

Good job i am happy for you  ::D:

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## bigCHEESE77

ghost, about your earlier question with the eyes looking towards focused spot. With the visualizations, I don't really need to worry about being too focused on my body. The trick is being tired enough (WBTB) that your mind will automatically take the visualization and turn it into a pre-dream. You just need to let your attention be occupied with the pre-dream. However, this leads to the problem I have now, which is losing my conscious thought and lucidity. I still need to find a solution for that, because, as my earlier post says, if I'm not totally involved in the pre-dreams, I won't reach sleep or fall into a real dream. So, I sort of need help there. If anyone knows any solutions, I would appreciate a reply.

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## bigCHEESE77

sigh. This morning was a failure.  I got up around 7:45, went to the bathroom, stretched, read my dream journal, then went back to bed. I went straight to visualizations, but they never turned into pre-dreams. I kept falling asleep, then waking up and trying again, but the visualizations never got far enough. It's so frustrating!!! I need some better way to retain consciousness during the visualizations, but apparently, everyone else's way doesn't work for me. I NEED SUGGESTIONS!!!


On the bright side, I almost DEILDed last night. I was having a dream about marching band, then I woke up. I sort of liked it, so I just kept visualizing it. I noticed I was standing a parade rest diagonally, and i felt the ground (or what I thought was the ground) touching my side. I then became lucid, but the dream was not yet full or stable, so I just woke up.

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## bigCHEESE77

urgh. Another failure. At least this time it was because of a different reason. My visualizations didn't turn into pre-dreams, so my mind never went into a dream. I think it was because I did to much in my WBTB and got too awake. It could also be that I went to bed earlier. OR, it could be that I didn't watch TV yesterday.  (I know that isn't likely, but I am just listing things that I did differently than usual)

And please post back . I haven't heard from any of the people who replied in the beginning. It would be nice to know how much progress everyone is making, especially the people who had similar problems to me.

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## OfficerFlake

Great JOB Bigcheese!

I'm very happy for you. I've been experimenting with WILD/VILD recently and it helps to know we have a connection in our approach. I TRY to VILD, by imagining a scenario and immersing the senses in it. Brillient inwwards focus, until i spontaneously snap back to reality.  :Oops: 

Say, cheese, What say we setup a joint adoption type thing between us? You help me, I'll help you?  ::D: 

I just got adopted by Spockman. He was in JROTC and should provide valuable insight to VILD, so i hope it helps  ::D:

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## jimbocan

> I went straight to visualizations, but they never turned into pre-dreams.



Yea, i wonder why this happens too. Is it a controllable thing to change the visualisations into pre-dreams? It is frustrating to see the visualisations fade into darkness when you let go.

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## bigCHEESE77

> I TRY to VILD, by imagining a scenario and immersing the senses in it. Brillient inwwards focus, until i spontaneously snap back to reality.



I am exactly the same. I will get pretty far into a pre-dream then suddenly remember my body back in bed. And then, I too, SNAP back into consciousness. It really is snapping, because one minute you'll be fully in a pre-dream and the next you'll be back in your bed with full rational thought. The only solution I can think of for this is to keep at it. I remember a person on dream views talking about how WILD/VILD was a cycle, where you would go into a trance, come out, then go in again, except deeper than the last time.

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