# Off-Topic Discussion > Extended Discussion >  >  Pornography: Who here has been a victim of it.

## IZ

No this is not a joke, but a serious topic.

Pornography is everywhere and it destroys character. And maybe you are some person who sees it as no big deal. But it does effect the way we live our lives and make our choices or even can make us feel ashamed by believing that you have broken a religious rule. Now I cant say that I myself am innocent. And I do not deny that I have never seen it or even enjoyed it. But we are humans with emotions that can become confused in this world and do foolish things. But one must conquer is mind and become stronger in mind.

What are your views on pornography. Dont be shy.  :Oops:

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## Gwendolyn

Pornography is in the top ten of lowest forms of entertainment. Besides the fact that it is utterly demeaning and stupid, it just isn't ethical. It's also illegal. I'm not a religious person and morality has nothing to do with it, in my opinion. It's just a parade  of low character.

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## O'nus

I am an animal.  I am human.  I try to give my primal nature more purpose with delusions of fate and life with culture, but, quintessentially, we are all still dependant on sex in order to survive.

It's natural, and I think it is just plain stubborn to think low of anyone who likes sex.  

Yes, I have pornography, and there's nothing wrong with that.. sheesh.

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## KalmaH

> _Originally posted by O'nus_
> *I am an animal. *I am human.*



Exactly what I would have said. As long as you don't become obsessed or a rapist or something like that I see nothing wrong with it.

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## Dracco2.5

I can say without a doubt in my mind that as far as porn goes.... well there's more bad than good.   ::wink::  






 ::cry::  


I'm not for it. I'm just sickend by it.

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## O'nus

> _Originally posted by Dracco2.5_
> *I'm not for it. I'm just sickend by it.*



I am curious; if you find sex or pornography disgusting, what about children?  Having children?  Since sex is the key to survival, these questions arise then if you find the perpetuation of our species to be "immoral".

It's no wonder so many neurotical hysteria is sexually related; we are cultured animals, we have the same instincts as any animals: eat, shit, pay taxes, fuck, and die.

What is sick about finding the opposite gender attractive?  Is it not "cute enough"?  You can't seriously say that you have *never* had any sexual fanatsies, because you know that is not true.  You also can't seriously say that you have *never* been attracted to someone.

What is disgusting about pornography?  Is it immediately associated with hardcore, disrespectful, or masochistic and pedophile thoughts?  Why immediately associate so many ill-thoughts to such a good thing?  People who are in love have sex all the time.

Maybe I need to get laid.. *Shrugs*

~

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## Alric

I am sure everyone has heard this before but its true so I will repeat it. Anyone who says they never looked at pornography before is lieing. That goes for girls too and it goes double for people who have the internet.

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## Gwendolyn

I do not think that sex is disgusting and I am not challenging your worth as a person, O'nus. Please do not think that. I merely think that the kind of Porn on the net is a giant exploitation of sex. We all have our own opinions. Your opinion O'nus is just as valid as any, and I commend you for having an opinion

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## Taosaur

Porn creates jobs, therefor porn is good for America  ::D:  

More seriously, I'm pro naked people, pro physical intimacy, and anti-porn.  Some of it seems innocent enough--some college girl clicking her own mouse on a webcam doesn't hurt anybody, I guess.  But most of it is pretty sadistic, and has very little to do with healthy sex.  I mean, the facial?  This is the standard finale in any contemporary porn movie, and it is all about humiliating the woman.  I'm all for opening up in loving intimacy or simple mutual gratification, but internet porn is all about being closed, being calloused, being hard.  It's one big, sick, revenge fantasy aimed at all the ex-girlfriends of the world.  It would be great if people were making more movies integrating positive sexuality with other aspects of human life, but to zero in on just sex, then break that down into all these ritualized fetish acts?  It cheapens our culture.  

I won't even go into what it does to people caught up in the industry.

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## McGoo

I agree with O'nus 110%, pornography is a natural extension of our human need for sex. I can understand perhaps ignoring normal sexual desire because of religious beliefs but that's all it is, ignoring what should be natural. Allthough that is commonplace in many major religions. Saying porn isn't ethical/is disgusting is an opinion, saying porn is "violent" is a generalization, and saying porn is illegal is just a fallacy.[/quote]

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## LewisM

I am pro-porn.

I know of the arguments that pornographers and porn companies are exploiting what our society deems sick fantasies, or are degrading to women, and I think these are valid points. However that does not deter me. 

There are a lot of things in this world that are dangerous, but I don't think it is worth abolishing something as pleasing to the eye such as porn, to save the few that become perverted or addicted (Id like to add that I am not pro-everything. For example, I believe smoking, at least in public or cigarettes in general should be illegal).

Then there is the matter of pornography that is directly aimed at exploiting sick fantasies... aggressive stuff... snuff. I don't really know what to say here, but know that I don't like this stuff, however I don't care what other people do with it. 

Another question to raise is whether or not young ones (such as myself) should be exposed to porn, like I am.

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## Neil

I have quite strong views on this.

There is nothing wrong with porn.

As has already been said, we are humans. We need to eat, we need to urinate, we need to sleep, and we need to ejaculate.

It is cretinous to attach morality to masturbation.

Having said that, it is much better to be in a loving relationship and to share intimacy with your partner. But realistically, many of us are single and need to fulfill this urge with the help of a magazine.

I do understand the issues people have with it. Some people become addicted to sex, just as some people are addicted to food or money. It is unhealthy to dedicate your life to any of these base impulses. I have some friends who spend all their money buying clothes and working out and trying to have sex. I see sex as merely a distraction from our real goals in life.

Just to reiterate: *It is cretinous to attach morality to masturbation*

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## Gwendolyn

What about child pornography? Come on....One reason I am against porn altogether is because of this. Children who were used for some sick pervert's amusement? How could anyone agree with this. That is not what I would call a _natural_ thing. Intimacy, sex, masturbation is all healthy, but the exploitation of women and  _children_ is certainly not, in my opinion. That is not to say I am going to judge anyone's character by this, but I just don't believe it it a good thing.

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## Neil

Hang on, I think you are confused. Child pornography is not normal pornography. Any children involved are obviously being abused. Adults who choose to get their breasts out in a magazine for lots of money are not being abused.

I get aggrivated when people confuse issues like this.

This topic was supposed to be about pornography, not the *culture of pornography*.

I drink coca cola. I like the taste. If a certain percentage of retailers has bad managers who treats its employees badly, I will not stop buying coca cola. At the most, I would buy coca cola from a reputable company who treats its workers well. The product of pornography itself is not evil, but the way it is made can be. So to say that pornography in principle is bad due to exploited workers is fallacious and silly, as it is nonsensical.

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## Death-Wuad

Why is it that everybody always assumes its the women who are demeened? Why not say- men are being viewed as sex toys on t.v's! When I call some girl a babe, I get slapped. When some girl calls me a stud, am I supposed to take that as a compliment?

Seriously though, I really don't think porn is immoral or anything, but when you have 12 year kids, then it's just plain wrong. There is a reason why nambla (north american man boy love association) doesn't get what it wants- kids know hardly anything about about love and sex. To exploit them is completely immoral and you should be castrated if you do.

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## IZ

Sex is natural, yes, but porn is a man-made fantasy. Pornography depicts wemon as sexual objects. Yes, its a beautifull thing, ( A womans body) But to the extent of herself being used to the amusement of men is not right. And Porn also makes people believe that all wemon just want to have sex all the time and thats all they are good for in this world. But the point I want to make is that Sex is a passion that lovers have, but porn just converts Sex into a fun and pleasurable thing thats changes our way of thinking that this is the way sex should be.

And I'm with Taosaur with the humiliating woman, with facials and what not. Making them smile for the camera, Seems as if they were only thinking of the money that they would get paid with.

Oh and Child Pornography, its just out of my time right now. But this is what happens when you take a step into the porn world. A pervert is created.

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## Neil

Your opinion that pornography is immoral has no actual weight to it does it? Why have such baseless opinions?   :tongue2:   ::roll::  

Pornography may degrade women but it is their choice to take this job. While it is true that some women stoop to this profession because they are very poor, there are labour laws that ensure that people are treated fairly in all types of employment.   ::shock::  

Thats like saying in the 18th Century, "I hate coal because miners get dirty and sometimes get carbon minoxide poisoning." They may well do, but *you can't criticise an object itself based on the way the object is obtained.*

Also, we are talking about the practise of viewing pornography, not the rights and wrongs of of filming it.

If you disagree with me, please reply with a logical explanation as to why I am wrong. Its all very nice to state one's opinions but is very worrying when people have opinions with such little actual reasoning behind them. This is the philosophy forum.  8)

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## Gwendolyn

> _Originally posted by Neil_
> *I have quite strong views on this.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with porn.
> 
> As has already been said, we are humans. We need to eat, we need to urinate, we need to sleep, and we need to ejaculate.
> 
> It is cretinous to attach morality to masturbation.
> 
> ...



Yes, but child pornography is a part of pornography altogether, and of course they are being abused, but it is still pornography.

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## Death-Wuad

2 aliens come to planet earth. One of them eats Human babies, and the other Helps human babies. Does this mean that all aliens are inherintly evil?

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## simisu

i think we're better off with porn then without it!
if somehow all porn would magically disappear and no one would make any more... and there will be no whores to service the men... well... you'd have a massive rape wave all over the world!
it's pretty extream but i do think that porn serve's a purpose...

now...
on the other hand i wouldn't like my future kids to be exposed to it (untill their old enough...) and i think that parents today should be aware of this problame! it's all about good education!


i've watched enough porn in my life to the point that i no longer enojy it at all... all i see is how fake it is and it makes me sick...
but it has a right to exist...

there's some good in it and alot of bad you just got to know how to approach it and treat it (that's why kids are better off without it ti'll they know what's what!)

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## KalmaH

> _Originally posted by Gwendolyn_
> *
> Yes, but child pornography is a part of pornography altogether, and of course they are being abused, but it is still pornography.*



Child pornography is not pornography at all. In normal porn, as it's been said by other people in this forum, everyone (including women) *CHOOSE* to be in these films. They know the consequences of their actions or at least they should. In any case they get paid a ton of money so there is *NO* expliotation.

Child pornography *IS* exploitation. It's sick! The children involved in this have no idea what is happening, and I doubt they see a single penny. In any case it might be the parents that see the money and if this is the case the parents should be hanged... with a powerline so they are being electocuted while they are hanged... all inside a gas chamber. Same goes to any adult that has anything to do with child porn.

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## CT

> _Originally posted by Gwendolyn+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Gwendolyn)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				<!--QuoteBegin-Neil
> 			
> 		
> ...



Thats like saying snuff movies are a part of movies alltogether.

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## Alric

Yea porn degrades men just as much as it degrades woman. Or do you think men chose to be in porn while woman are forced into it for them money? Now that is degrading statement

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## Lowercase Society

Just so everyone can hear...er...read my opinion on porno:


*THE STORY LINES SUCK, they are so freaking cheesy. * 
Wouldn't you all agree.

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## IZ

I'm sorry if I offend anyone in any way, you can even ban me or even cause my name to look bad. But if you think that porn is a good thing than you are a corrupted soul.

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## ffx-dreamz

Haha, Im 13....Im expected to be corrupted.  :tongue2:

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## CT

Whats up with this weird old fashioned prejuidice that porn, and sex and intimacy are evil, and shouldnt be seen? 
Why the hell do you care anyways? Dont like it, dont watch it. 
But just because you dont like it, it doesnt seem to be ethical IN YOUR OPINION, just ignore it or something, dont go making a fuss about it! Why cant people just allow other people to do what the hell they want, if guys want to watch porn let them, they're not hurting anyone, if women want to do it as a job, let them. Shield your kids from it, but dont act like its an immoral thing to do and that it should be illegal. Its not your right to judge that.

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## Taosaur

A lively discussion!  The pros are putting up a better argument than the cons, I think.  My problem with 98% of the porn out there is that it *upholds* the idea that sex is dirty.  It doesn't speak to the varieties of natural sexuality, but instead repeats a series of lame fetish images over and over.  I think this taboo/fetish dichotomy in our culture leads to bad sex.  

As for the industry:     





> Neil wrote: *you can't criticise an object itself based on the way the object is obtained.[/b]



Yes, you can.  When you buy a product, you are funding the continuation of the process that created it.  If that process involved misery, coercion, and desperation, then you are funding a more miserable, coercive, and desparate future.  It's simple cause and effect.

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## simisu

who the hell buys porn?
you can download it   ::D:  

and i totally agree with CT!
as long as no one gets hurt they can make all the porn they want!

and if anyone has a problame with it they should take a look at them selves and see what it is and not blame anyone alse for it! 

it's kinda like: guns dont kill people - people kill people!
and its the same with drugs
and with porn
and with prostetution
and gambling
and religion

so basically what i'm saying is.... once you abuse something it's wrong... and as long as it's in good taste and no one get's hurt... LET IT BE !
(and you know what they say about taste... can't argue about that   ::D:  )

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## Lowercase Society

*Sex.  Sex is something sacred.  To be shared with two people.  

These two people who are commiting the act of sexual intercourse have something between them that no other being should see. It is sacred. It is holy, above all else.

Sex is meant for 2 people's eyes, and their eyes only.

Sex is not meaningless...it is the only physical act that involves NOT only the body, but the SOUL too...no matter how much you argue, if you have had sex you will realize that it is deeper than just an orgasm, or pleasure, it involves deeper commitment, and should never be abused, such as with a stranger, or for an audience.

*

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## simisu

so.............
you think we should outlaw porn? censure TV? make everyone wear decent cloths?
ristrict and bind our minds? marry younger?
just to keep the act of sex pure?

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## Neil

For heaven's sake, why is sex sacred ? WHY ?

IZ, I feel sorry for you that you believe that those who like porn are corrupted because you don't even realise that these "morals" have been plucked out of the air.

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## Lomebririon

> _Originally posted by Lowercase Society+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lowercase Society)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sex. *Sex is something sacred. *To be shared with two people. *
> 
> These two people who are commiting the act of sexual intercourse have something between them that no other being should see. It is sacred. It is holy, above all else.
> 
> ...



 
Brilliant! He has a very valid point. These morals and viewpoints come from an era where people actively thought with every fibre of their being that they were going to burn in purgatory for all of eternity if they strayed from the churches teachings. 


This topic itself may have been a result of hormones. Perhaps a result of that \"disgusted with self\" feeling after the act. That is not the result of your morality kicking in. The copious amounts of hormones that compelled you to \"do the deed\" have just taken a sharp nosedive, leaving you with nothing but pornography and your ding dong in your hand. A natural reaction would be to blame the subject of your lust. However you must look to the cellular level to see the true cause. 

Pornography is only truly a problem when it begins to interfere with aspects of your social life. 
e.g. Not going out with friends so you can stay home and masturbate. 

This may be the thought of many, that everyone who owns pornography is like this. However this is not true, like many other aspects of society; some take it to extremes, consciously or subconsciously.

I suppose this arguement will go the way of politics and religion. Oh well, we can't please everyone.





> _Originally posted by simisu_
> *who the hell buys porn? *
> you can download it *

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## evangel

> _Originally posted by Lowercase Society_
> *Sex. *Sex is something sacred. *To be shared with two people. *
> ...
> Sex is meant for 2 people's eyes, and their eyes only.
> 
> Sex is not meaningless...it is the only physical act that involves NOT only the body, but the SOUL too...
> *



  ::goodjob2::  Couldn't agree more. (...Actually I could since I believe that even further sex is created for a man and a woman - who are married - but that's 'nother can o'worms)

Porn is *twisted* and destructive. Nearly all sex criminals have been connected to a porn-based lifestyle or at least a connection to porn. That should say something...

The porn industry (including those who consume porn) seem hell-bent on proving that sex is not sacred. I don't think the word is in their vocabulary. Many make the claim that we are simply animals or without souls/spirits or "eternal consequence." If we're animals, then why don't we behave like them without any moral convictions? In other words, we are moral beings and everyone has a conscience (though some people choose to sear thir own consciences) So the "amoral" approach or argument carries no weight. If you at least say that porn is not immoral, it is the same as saying porn IS moral (good). Yet with all the negative fruit, how can anyone say that porn is good for anyone?

It seems some (CT, Neil, Lome, and maybe some others) are making the argument that morality is subjective or "each is to his own" as far as moral judgments go. If that is true, then we have no grounds for judging the pedophile, necrophile, or any other perverted wanker ('scuse my English) out there. If morality is subjective, there is no authoritative standard. But someone must be the one to make the final judgment on where the line is crossed from moral to immoral in regards to porn. How would you choose this person or authority. There's a double standard there, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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## Alric

> _Originally posted by evangel_
> *
> Porn is twisted and destructive. Nearly all sex criminals have been connected to a porn-based lifestyle or at least a connection to porn. That should say something...
> *



That doesn't make sense at all. What if I said nearly all sex criminals ate a donut once in their life, I guess we should outlaw donuts because they cause people to become sex criminals.

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## Alric

By the way there are animals who mate for life and with only one mate. So  having sex with a ton of different people isn't something I would call natural.

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## evangel

> What if I said nearly all sex criminals ate a donut once in their life, I guess we should outlaw donuts because they cause people to become sex criminals.[/b]



What YOU are saying makes non sense because it is fallacious reasoning, but what I was obviously IMPLYING is that porn usually has some sort of contribution in a sex criminal's view of what is right and wrong in regards to sexual behavior. 

Porn has been linked to ALL kinds of violent and sexual criminal behavior by valid sociological and psychological studies. The following example is exerpted from an article following Ted Bundy's (a serial rapist, child molester, and murderer) execution.





> \"My experience with pornography ... is once you become addicted to it, (and I look at this as a kind of addiction like other kinds of addiction), I would keep looking for more potent, more explicit, more graphic kinds of material. Like an addiction, you keep craving something that is harder, something which gives you a greater sense of excitement. Until you reach a point where the pornography only goes so far, you reach that jumping off point where you begin to wonder if maybe actually doing it would give you that which is beyond just reading or looking at it.\"
> 
> Within a few years, those latent desires fueled by pornography were expressed through his first murder. Although Bundy said he did not blame pornography, he explained that pornographic materials shaped and molded his behavior. He also warned the nation that \"the most damaging kinds of pornography ... are those that involve violence and sexual violence. Because the wedding of those two forces, as I know only too well, brings out the hatred that is just, just too terrible to describe.\" [/b]




Here's the rest: http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0332..._Ted_Bundy.html

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## Alric

Ok donuts is bad but only because I was trying to show why it doesn't make sense. Something closer would saying something like, most criminals own a gun so guns should be outlawed since they cause crime. Its just as true as with the donuts but people still argue that and same goes for porn.

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## Death-Wuad

There was a male gerbal at a pet shot somewhere in the united states, it broke out of it's cage and got into another cage filled with 23 female gerbals. It had sex with every gerbal in that cage in a single night (lucky bastard). So I guess that's grounds for argument that sex with dozens of different partners is natural. 

How do you always know which is the cause, and which is the effect? You can take anything to an extreme and have it turn into a bad thing (Looking for extreme sports thrills, drinking, smoking, television)

Some people are under the assumption that listening to violent music, watching violent television, and playing violent video games makes you a violent person. That's incrediblly ignorant considering that fact that they have the same stuff (it's even more popular I heard) in other countries, yet they don't have nearly as much youth-violence as we do (I'm reffering to the United states when I say we). But I'm not saying that it can't lead to violence, I'm just saying it's highly unlikely.

EDIT: Whoops, I posted this a little late, I wasn't referring to Ted Bundy (If you read my post before I edited it)

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## Alric

> _Originally posted by Death&#045;Wuad_
> *
> Evangel, how do you know porn caused him to be a sex criminal? Rather than being a sexual deviant causing him to watch porn?
> *



Yea that was pretty much my point.

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## evangel

I never made such a claim...

This is what I said:





> porn usually has some sort of contribution in a sex criminal's view of what is right and wrong in regards to sexual behavior. [/b]



If you don't think that argument is strong enough in pointing out the insidious nature of porn, there are several studies that support the claim that *no good comes from porn*... Bundy's (and other sex and porn fiends') own testimonies are, to me, much more powerful than any scientific evidence or proof that as you asserted that may support the argument that "porn causes sex crimes.."

If you read the entire interview with Bundy, he testifies explicitly that his perversion began "innocently" by reading and viewing soft core porn, which eventually progressed to more twisted porn... leading to addiction and then perverted and criminal behavior. Pretty convincing testimony if you ask me.

I am a victim of porn also... I used to view it a lot, which led to me even going to a few strip clubs. The visual impact of pornography is so powerfully engraved, that I probably will not be able to enjoy sex in its rightful context (with the woman I will marry and love):
that is with intimacy, exclusivity, and emotional connection. I will still experience these things, but not without the memories of the images that I have poisoned my mind with - and not with the intensity and purity that I would like, now having learned my lesson.

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## Death-Wuad

> If you read the entire interview with Bundy, he testifies explicitly that his perversion began \"innocently\" by reading and viewing soft core porn, which eventually progressed to more twisted porn... leading to addiction and then perverted and criminal behavior. Pretty convincing testimony if you ask me.[/b]



Well how do you know he wasn't going to turn into a sexual deviant without porn? He could just have naturally been a very sex craving loon. But even if it does manage to turn people into complete psychpaths, that doesn't mean the rest of the community needs to have their porn-privileges lost. It's like achohol, some people turn it into their only agenda, but that doesn't necessarily mean that alcohol is evil.

And maybe he turned out like that because he was exposed to it at such a young age? A child suddenly being immersed into anything they aren't familiar with is going to exhibit different reactions than somebody who learns about this stuff more maturely and much slower.

EDIT: There is a reason for the viewing of pornography being illegal until you are old enough to handle it.

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## evangel

Still... I've heard of no good tat comes of it. Therefore, arguments FOR porn hold no weight in my book. I never said, nor am I implying that porn causes psychosis or directly causes crime. I'm saying only that it is often linked (and obviously changes one's view of what sex is, how it should be "peformed" etc.), and that in my own experience, it is mental and spiritual POISON.

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## Seeker

Great topic guys!  Interesting and intelligent discussion going on  ::goodjob::

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## Lowercase Society

> _Originally posted by evangel_
> *If morality is subjective, there is no authoritative standard. But someone must be the one to make the final judgment on where the line is crossed from moral to immoral in regards to porn. How would you choose this person or authority. There's a double standard there, I think.*



 ::goodjob2::  Exactly.

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## wendysleeps

~i agree w/ evangel & lowercase on many things they've said...it's hard to dictate/try to control morality in a society so i don't really know if trying to "outlaw" pornography is such a good plan...i mean, people should be given the chioce to do the right thing or do the wrong thing...someone said something earlier about how if porn was suddenly removed from the world that there would be a huge wave of rapes throughout the world...i disagree & here's why: rape is less about sex and more about control and hate etc (correct me if i'm wrong)...i'd have to say that there was probably less porn 60years ago(taking an educated leap of a guess;p)and i'd venture to say that there were also less sexual crimes...it seems to me that there may be a connection between the 2(pornography and sex crimes)...i'm not saying that porn is the only thing to blame but i feel it plays a part....
 ~you all have a great day;p

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## OpheliaBlue

no exploitations!!!

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## CT

> _Originally posted by evangel_
> *If morality is subjective, there is no authoritative standard. But someone must be the one to make the final judgment on where the line is crossed from moral to immoral in regards to porn. How would you choose this person or authority. There's a double standard there, I think.*



NO!!! Nobody should make the final judgement!!! Who is worthy, to command what other people can and cant do, if they're not causing harm? Do as you please, but your freedom ends, where the freedom of another starts. If it causes no harm, even though in your opinion it is disgusting, you should impose that opinion on other people, you have no right to make that descision for other people. Proving that porn causes harm however, is a whole other discussion. But, as you said so any argument FOR porn holds no value in your opinion, and your general dislike towards porn will make impossible to justify it for you, and most other people. 
Before the people who have different opinions that me are going to quote me line by line i\'d like to say that i\'m not that good with words, I usually have difficulty accurately portraying my opinions on several matters, which is why I hardly post in this section. Add the fact that english is not my 1st language. So instead of picking my post apart, taking it litterally and magnifying the possibly contradictions try to see the message i\'m trying to get across... I\'m not good at it, I know.... but I hate when in order to \'win\' the argument people are gonna take it apart and out of context and ramble about a moot point... which i\'ve seen alot in this forum. I cant hold my own in such debates, so dont get me in one please...

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## OpheliaBlue

::lol::   "teensy-text"!!

Anyway, CT's got a point. Let's all make sure we debate issues and not semantics. Unless you're just messing around to be messing around. Then I say knock yourselves out, woohooo!

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## Howie

I actually came up with my own phrase with concern over not just pornography but sin in general.
* temtation lies wait for everyone, left enchecked could be their demise.*

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## Neil

> _Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Sex is not meaningless...it is the only physical act that involves NOT only the body, but the SOUL too...
> 
> Porn is twisted and destructive. Nearly all sex criminals have been connected to a porn-based lifestyle or at least a connection to porn. That should say something...[/b]
> ...



Because we have opposible thumbs.

The concept of morality was created by humans so that they would stop killing each other, as a fairly natural instinct not to get killed. Morals were created because it is easier to blame the world's problems on bad people than to accept responsibility for our own decisions. It is easier to wage wars when you believe your enemy is evil. But it is also wrong.

Co-operation allows us to lead our own lives without stepping on each other's toes. Hence, we mammals tend to help each other out when it suits us by forming societies. Just as the gorilla who kills the journalist for stealing its baby, humans send criminals to jail. Tit for tat. Morality. Its old and its not sacred, just useful in certain circumstances.





> _Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				 If you at least say that porn is not immoral, it is the same as saying porn IS moral (good). Yet with all the negative fruit, how can anyone say that porn is good for anyone?[/b]
> 			
> 		
> ...



We should not judge others. Everything a person does in his or her life is completely consitent with that person's personal morals and ethics (both being codes that the individual has developed her/himself or has been programmed with from various sources). 

The reason developed countries lock up murderers is not (or at least should not) be to PUNISH THEM FOR THEIR SINS because they are BAD BOOGY MEN. The reason is because murderers get in the way of other people who are trying to live their lives. This is about pluralism.

\"Each to their own\" - Exactly! People should be free to do whatever they wish so long as it doesn't harm anybody else. This, in my opinion, SACRED principle (yes I do know of the word), is the most important code of conduct for anyone to live by. As the Bible says, we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us. This is right not because it is the word of the Bible, but because it is the most sensible. Thats as simple as it gets. It abhors me that people don't respect this.





> _Originally posted by evangel_
> *If morality is subjective, there is no authoritative standard. *But someone must be the one to make the final judgment on where the line is crossed from moral to immoral in regards to porn. How would you choose this person or authority. There's a double standard there, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.*



You are wrong, because this isn't about morality, it is about respecting other people's right to do whatever they want balanced with people's right not to be harmed. Both principles are essential, and not based on morality but rather pragmatism and common-sense.   ::?:  

You would have to be pretty silly to NOT realise the difference between consentual activity of adults  as an act of free will and non-consentual ABUSE of children.   :Exclaim:   ::cry::

----------


## Awaken

> _Originally posted by Neil_
> *Hang on, I think you are confused. Child pornography is not normal pornography. Any children involved are obviously being abused. Adults who choose to get their breasts out in a magazine for lots of money are not being abused.
> 
> I get aggrivated when people confuse issues like this.*



Are you saying maturity is derived from some moralistic ideal? Maturity comes from experience. Experience comes from curiosity. It's not like the second someone turns 18 they suddenly spring into a mature, rational-thinking person...There are 8yo's who are more mature than those in their 20's!
Come on now, Brooke Burns used to be a CP star! Ever heard of Pretty Baby? Was she abused?

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## Awaken

Oh yeah - porn kicks ass  ::-P:  No one will ever get rid of it as long as there's a voice like this one. And who the hell equates it with rape? We could ban everything to stop any kind of bad influence and then we'd all look pretty stupid.

----------


## IZ

This is how porn changed the world:

People lost the respect for women. When a man sees a great looking women down the street. Does a man imagen her with him together loving each other OR does he see in is mind himself imitating a sexaul position with her that he saw on a porn movie? Do good looking women with intellegents even get noticed by their mind or by their body.

People when they are watching porn, they reach a point of tollerance. Once this point is reached, what else will excite them? The actual performance? Which may lead to rape or even worse, a close relashion to ones self.

And these days, there have been very early age pregnancies. What would make two very young kids have sex? How would they now how to do it? Did watching porn at an early age educate them? (And dont tell me that its a human instinct to know how to have sex and crap)

How about you, do you care even if your own sister or even daughter is raped or gets sexualy active and maybe pregnent early. Would you say: "Oh its just nature taking its way" BULL!!! We are a civilized species. Dont tell me that its normal to violate someones body or even virginity just for the pleasure of it.

And why do you compare other products and items with sex? Who are you trying to confuse? All you care about is making your point heard, but will you listen to what the opposite has to say? Or will you try to twist his words into your own views?

And be honest, How many of you, even right now have another window open on a porn site as you read these very words?

Nuff Said.

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## ffx-dreamz

> Dont tell me that its normal to violate someones body or even virginity just for the pleasure of it. [/b]



That has nothing to do with the original subject.You have no proof that porn makes a person go out and rape someone... I'm not gonna make a huge drawn out post over this, Im just gonna state a fact, we got out opinion, and you have yours, nothing you say is gonna change my view on it, and I think it would be better to just drop it.NOTHING is gonna come out of this debate besides....debate  :tongue2: .And, just for the hell of it, I opened a porn window!What now, did I just hurt someone?I don't think so..its a harmless practice, get the hell over it..

*prepares to get brutally attacked.*

----------


## IZ

Aha! thats one tally on yes.  ::lol::  

And I know its a debate. I have my views and you have yours, we chose to live the way we want. Listen or not, I tried to sound the warning trumpet.

----------


## imported_Berserk_Exodus

Pornography is simply another form of consumer junk food in our Hedonistic culture.

Sex is now pre-packed, plastic, and tastier than ever!

Why would I want to look a piece of paper and pass out on my toilet if I could be out there _actually with a woman._  And no one better say "Women look at it too, dur-dur."  It's almost an entirely male creation.

We are a male domination society, we've been since the dawn of our species.  Think of the comparisons between the two.

1.Man - Woman
2.Male - Female

Both contain the element "man", but in the first example it just plainly seems to be a blow to the femme itself, "Woe-man".  Never got that until recently.

Now, No. 2, both still contain the element "male", but -fe appears to be a subtraction of male as if the X was a lesser version of Y.  In fact we know from genetics this is simply not the case.  

Back to the point, only complete idiots look at porn and I would like to give them a swift kick in the balls.  Sure, you could say it's the natural human sex drive, BUT MASTURBATION DOES NOT = SEX.  Read from top all the way down, repeat as necessary.

BTW, I voted for it until I realized that I was thinking like a complete f(cking idiot and kicked myself in the balls.

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## IZ

I just hope this thread doesn't create a division in the forum between the morals and imorals. I mean the poll is 50 - 50.

Anyways, I had enough, I'm off to bed. tomorrow is another day. Work is always waiting.

Anyways, yall have a friendly goodnight.

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## imported_Berserk_Exodus

I don't take it from a moral standpoint, I take it from a logical one.

----------


## ffx-dreamz

> _Originally posted by IZ_
> *I just hope this thread doesn't create a division in the forum between the morals and imorals. I mean the poll is 50 - 50.
> 
> Anyways, I had enough, I'm off to bed. tomorrow is another day. Work is always waiting.
> 
> Anyways, yall have a friendly goodnight.*



Not now, I had forgotten to vote. 

later  :tongue2:

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## Lomebririon

You guys make some interesting arguements. Not convincing, but interesting.





> _Originally posted by evangel_
> *If you read the entire interview with Bundy, he testifies explicitly that his perversion began \"innocently\" by reading and viewing soft core porn, which eventually progressed to more twisted porn... leading to addiction and then perverted and criminal behavior. Pretty convincing testimony if you ask me.*



Well, that is one way to look at it. However, once again we are talking about the principle of excess. Anything used in excess is potentially harmful.

A cause-and-effect relationship is drawn between men viewing pornography and men attacking women, especially in the form of rape. But studies and experts disagree as to whether any relationship exists between pornography and violence, between images and behavior. Even a report called the pro-censorship Meese Commission Report admitted that the data connecting pornography to violence was unreliable. 

Other studies like the one done by feminist Thelma McCormick in 1983 for the Metropolitan Toronto Task Force on Violence Against Women, find no pattern to connect porn and sex crimes. 

You know what happend then? The Task Force suppressed the study and reassigned the project to a supporter of censorship, who returned the "correct" results. Their study was published the one published. 

"These findings are all well and good in theory, but what about real life?" you say? In Japan, where pornography depicting graphic and brutal violence is widely available, rape is much lower per capita than in the United States, where violence in porn is severely restricted. Explain that.

Pornography is free speech applied to the sexual realm. Freedom of speech is the ally of those who seek change: it is the enemy of those who seek to maintain control. Pornography, along with all other forms of sexual heresy, such as homosexuality, should have the same legal protection as political heresy. Viewing pornography may well have a calming effect on men who have violent urges toward women. If this is true, restricting pornography removes a protective barrier between women and abuse. 

Pornography gives a panoramic view of the world's sexual possibilities. This is true even of basic sexual information such as masturbation. It is not uncommon for women to reach adulthood without knowing how to give themselves pleasure. It allows women to "safely" experience sexual alternatives and satisfy a healthy sexual curiosity. The world is a dangerous place. By contrast, pornography can be a source of solitary enlightenment. It also offers the emotional information that comes only from experiencing something either directly or vicariously. It provides us with a sense how it would "feel" to do something. Pornography allows people to enjoy scenes and situations that would be anathema to them in real life. Take, for example, one of the most common fantasies reported by women - the fantasy of "being taken." The first thing to understand is that a rape fantasy does not represent a desire for the real thing. Why would a healthy woman daydream about being raped? Perhaps by losing control, she also sheds all sense of responsibility for and guilt over sex. Perhaps it is the exact opposite of the polite, gentle sex she has now. Perhaps it is flattering to imagine a particular man being so overwhelmed by her that he must have her. Perhaps she is curious. Perhaps she has some masochistic feelings that are vented through the fantasy. Is it better to bottle them up? 

Pornography breaks cultural and political stereotypes, so that each woman can interpret sex for herself. Some people such as Anti-feminists and puritans tell people to be ashamed of their appetites and urges. Pornography tells them to accept and enjoy them. Pornography can be good therapy. Pornography provides a sexual outlet for those who - for whatever reason - have no sexual partner. Perhaps they are away from home, recently widowed, isolated because of infirmity. Perhaps they simply choose to be alone. Couples also use pornography to enhance their relationship. Sometimes they do so on their own, watching videos and exploring their reactions together. Sometimes, the couples go to a sex therapist who advises them to use pornography as a way of opening up communication on sex. By sharing pornography, the couples are able to experience variety in their sex lives without having to commit adultery. 

I believe that there is a copius amount of bias in some of your arguements. Some of you are letting your religious or social backgrounds prevent you from seeing both sides of the arguement - and without seeing both sides, you argue your point blindly and closed-minded, without listening to the other side making this debate essentially useless. This debate is old whine in new battles. The issue at stake in the morality of pornography debate is nothing less than the age-old conflict between individual freedom and social control.

----------


## CT

> And these days, there have been very early age pregnancies. What would make two very young kids have sex? How would they now how to do it? Did watching porn at an early age educate them? (And dont tell me that its a human instinct to know how to have sex and crap) [/b]



Thats just bullcrap. Girls used to get married and get kids at the age of 13. Woman have emancipated, you know? I'd say woman who work in porn are more emancipated then most women. 
By the way, since we live in the age of mass-media now, and a more efficient police (usually), we know of ALOT more violent crimes. But, such crime has decreased over the years, just because it is reported and discussed more, people think it happens more. It is a bigger risk to let your kid play in a playground by itself in the 70's, then it is now. People are just more paranoid now. 






> The issue at stake in the morality of pornography debate is nothing less than the age-old conflict between individual freedom and social control.[/b]



 ::thumbup::

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## Neil

> _Originally posted by Awaken_
> *Are you saying maturity is derived from some moralistic ideal? Maturity comes from experience. Experience comes from curiosity. It's not like the second someone turns 18 they suddenly spring into a mature, rational-thinking person...There are 8yo's who are more mature than those in their 20's!*



*sigh* generally an 18 year old is able to make more rational decisions about whether they should or should not be in a porno than a 4 year old. Until they reach that age we make the choice for them that they should NOT be in a porno. 

CT, I fully agree with you.

----------


## Awaken

> _Originally posted by IZ+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IZ)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				This is how porn changed the world:
> 
> People lost the respect for women. When a man sees a great looking women down the street. Does a man imagen her with him together loving each other OR does he see in is mind himself imitating a sexaul position with her that he saw on a porn movie? Do good looking women with intellegents even get noticed by their mind or by their body.
> ...



Nope. Can't get a boner and type about getting a boner at the same time.

----------


## Awaken

> _Originally posted by Neil_
> *
> *sigh* generally an 18 year old is able to make more rational decisions about whether they should or should not be in a porno than a 4 year old. Until they reach that age we make the choice for them that they should NOT be in a porno. 
> 
> CT, I fully agree with you.*



If a kid wants to prance around (and yes, some do) in front of a camera nekkie, who should tell them they can't? Luring is bad, but kids say (and do) the darndest things. They're smarter these days... I'm definitely not talking about any sexual contact or adults in the picture...In fact what I'm talking about really doesn't even qualify as porn   ::-P: 

Morals have their place these days, but they gotta change, people are miserable because of em.

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## Lomebririon

> _Originally posted by Awaken+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Awaken)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				<!--QuoteBegin-IZ
> 			
> 		
> ...



  ::chuckle::

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## Lowercase Society

Me and a good friend were talking about this yesterday...

In life i like to keep a balance, i use a saying:

EVERYTHING IN MODERATION.

That means everything from reading the bible, down to watching pornography...i'm not saying that i have never seen it, BUT i don't want to watch it too much, and get hooked onto it.  Once every now and then to get the blood pumping is ok...but if your addicted to it (and if you are you will probably deny it!)...it is not 'healthy behaviour'.

In life there needs to be boundary lines...every person should set their own boudary lines to an extent, but it is obvious if a person is crossing boundary lines that should not be crossed.  Everything in moderation, that means porno too...

I am trying to live life like this...and it is a good approach, i presume.

Cheers!

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## OpheliaBlue

> _Originally posted by Lowercase Society_
> *EVERYTHING IN MODERATION.*



Well said man.

I have to admit, I voted "no", but ut probably has a bit to do with having a kid. It's odd, the hypocrisy of parents. While I've_ (moderately  )_ indulged in a few sins from time to time, I vote against porn because I imagine how it will affect my son more than myself or anyone else.

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## simisu

i didn't think i had anything alse to say but i have to coment on this!






> _Originally posted by Awaken+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Awaken)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				<!--QuoteBegin-Neil
> 			
> 		
> ...




what you might or might not consider as porn i dont know... BUT kiddie porn (when made as such!) is abusive to the child (not neccerely phisycal!)!
no matter if he actualy has intercours or not... NO child should WANT to be watched as a sexual being (maybe some 12-17 year old's might appriciate the attention BUT you must agree that the law is there for a REASON becouse it's much easier to take advantage of kids then an 18 year old... and yeah some 18's dont really know what their doing but much less then the kids that would REALLY WANT to be looked at in a sexual way! and maybe even some of those would look back and be ashamed of what they did when they were small...) 

almost always there are exceptions to laws... but the law is there for a reason (and usualy it's a good one!) i'd hate to think what would happen to this world if kids were ALWAYS treated as adults (in the law!)

anyway... please dont try and justefy kiddie porn! (and i mean porn when made as such...) becouse most kids are not so aware (and i bet you wouldn't let your kid make a porn movie even if he said it's ok with him and your sure he knows what he's doing!)

this reminds me of that person who chose to be eaten by this cannibal... you'd have to prove this person is sane befor you'd let him do it right?
BUT if suddenly lots of people started eating other people would you make a law saying that people who want to get eaten by other people (that is comit suicide for another person) should first be checked for sanety or would you simply forbid it? (personally i think that people should be free to make such decisions for them selves as long as they're proved to be capeble of making such a decision... but such things are TOO hard to prove (be it a child that wants to do porn or a man that want's to get eaten by another man) and so its simpler to just outlaw them... and i dont see how some one can justefy kidde porn (or beign eaten/eat) as a whole... MAYBE as case per case but... not as a whole

and PLEASE lets not get into the athics of suicide or moralety of kiddie porn... that's NOT the point... and i couldn't have said it batter then Lomebririon....





> believe that there is a copius amount of bias in some of your arguements. Some of you are letting your religious or social backgrounds prevent you from seeing both sides of the arguement - and without seeing both sides, you argue your point blindly and closed-minded, without listening to the other side making this debate essentially useless. This debate is old whine in new battles. The issue at stake in the morality of pornography debate is nothing less than the age-old conflict between individual freedom and social control.[/b]



it's a matter of taste... and debating it is pretty useless when you dont undersand another's POV!

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## Alric

I think people just like blaiming stuff. I have looked at porn, has it hurt me? No, infact I believe in waiting untill your married before having sex. I play video games where peoples heads get blown off and stuff, does it make me crazy? No, I wouldn't even hurt an animal. I don't steal, I have never tried any drug. I don't smoke, I don't even drink though I am now old enough to do so legally.

Its like the person who cuts off someones arm because they saw it on tv. Is it TV's fault? No, its because the person is a total moron. Did bundy do that stuff because of porn? No he did it because he is crazy. If he never saw porn he would of killed someone another way. Maybe he gets in an arguement then goes and kill them.

The absolute worse thing porn does, is it gives you the idea that having sex might be fun. If that idea never came to mind before seeing it though, well  you have other problems.

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## Lowercase Society

If we are talking about sex, we might as well talk about killing (as entertainment, of course)

Different people get effected by different forms of 'entertainment'.  I can say that i love a good war flick or medieval flick.  But i must say that too much of them gives me a sadistic pleasure in death...it needs to be kept in moderation...let's just say TRUE STORIES...history is great, if you don't know your past, you don't know who you truely are...anyway...it is sick the way that 'entertainment' has taken a turn for today. *twItCH*

>Nobody can deny the fact that what we indulge in can become part of our behaviour, or how we react in a situation.  We become socially dependent on our entertainment...we depend too much on it i think.  
If we watch too much porn, our behaviour gets effected by the indulgement in that form of entertainment, and the same with war movies, and even religious ones...keep everything in moderation. 
(soft disclaimer: i know i am a broken record about the 'everything in moderation', but it is important)

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## evangel

Again, no one said there is any *direct correlation* or *effect*. The reason I brought up Bundy and HIS OWN TESTIMONY is that it supports the argument that porn, especially violent extreme porn is AT LEAST not good. 

Lome, your arguments are great from a critical thinking/neutral standpoint... I never claimed *not* to have a bias. In fact, I hope my bias IS evident.  In regards to porn, I would not even consider it "in moderation" since, to me, it is like saying as long as you pump your veins with poison in moderation, you'll be okay.

I think we all agree that censorship is NECESSARY. Otherwise you would have people posting pedophilia, etc. online etc. etc.

The double standard that those who claim to be against censorship and "for freedom of expression" maintain (I still think) is ridiculous. They often claim subjective morality in regards to stuff like porn, yet turn around and say there should be lines drawn (which is objectivism, hence the double-standard). WHO gets to draw the line? Government. Why? Because it must be drawn somewhere because some people's idea of beauty and "art" maybe someone else's idea of obscenity.

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## Alric

If there is no direct effect then it doesn't mean anything.

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## Awaken

Thanks simisu, that was really well-laid out. I agree that the law is there to protect those that may be in real danger. I WANT people who abuse children in jail...But the point is that it's a really complicated issue and many decent people DO go to jail because of some stupid technicality  :Sad:  It's that they need to fix it, much like drug laws.

And uh, believe it or not some kids do like to be looked at sexually. I didn't make the rule, nature did   ::|:

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## Neil

> _Originally posted by evangel_
> *The double standard that those who claim to be against censorship and \"for freedom of expression\" maintain (I still think) is ridiculous. They often claim subjective morality in regards to stuff like porn, yet turn around and say there should be lines drawn (which is objectivism, hence the double-standard). WHO gets to draw the line? Government. Why? Because it must be drawn somewhere because some people's idea of beauty and \"art\" maybe someone else's idea of obscenity.*



But those in favour of freedom of expression agree in subjective morality, while accepting that there is more than one person in their soceity, who has a different subjective morality to their own, so concessions are made so that we can express ourselves up until the point that it harms someone else in some way. This is not morality. It is pluralism, pragmatism and democracy.

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## Lomebririon

> _Originally posted by evangel+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(evangel)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Again, no one said there is any direct correlation or effect. The reason I brought up Bundy and HIS OWN TESTIMONY is that it supports the argument that porn, especially violent extreme porn is AT LEAST not good. 
> [/b]
> 			
> ...



That's a rather extreme example isn't it? Even for this subject. It's like you're subtly saying since we've watched it we're going to some place really hot for all eternity. If that's the case, see you there.  :smiley:

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## Lowercase Society

> _Originally posted by Lomebririon+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lomebririon)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				<!--QuoteBegin-evangel
> 			
> 		
> ...




Yeah...but porn, in his thoughts is infectuous...and therefore deadly to the mind and behaviour...and i think i mostly agree.

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## loose id

I think pornography is good, which is why I think its bad.

Think about it in a psychological sense. You have men and women who are recieving a mindfull of oxytocin every time they masturbate to some picture they see on the net.  Now, in the operant condition mode, they become reliant not only on the stimulus of nekked women pictures, but of the modality in which they are given this stimulus. How many of y'all are kinda stuck with your fingers on the keyboard even when you aren't checkin' out all black background pictures? We don't build real relationships with people, we got a bunch of these binary ones.

Sweet ass, huh?

Now, for something completely different:
 ::muffin::

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## Aphius

> _Originally posted by loose id_
> *Think about it in a psychological sense. You have men and women who are recieving a mindfull of oxytocin every time they masturbate to some picture they see on the net.*



Oxytocin is only at the levels you've outlined (a mind-full) with the use of _Chronic Masturbation_.

Meaning that only addicts would become dependant on such stimulus, which of course is why they are addicts. But like others have argued _EVERYTHING IN MODERATION_.





> How many of y'all are kinda stuck with your fingers on the keyboard even when you aren't checkin' out all black background pictures? We don't build real relationships with people, we got a bunch of these binary ones. [/b]



What the heck are you talkin' about?  ::|:

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## evangel

> _Originally posted by Lomebririon_
> *
> Since a convicted felon said to you that porno made him do it, it's suddenly universally true? Do you have any other testimonies from criminals to support this theory as well? Or is it just that one? If that is the only one, it cannot really be considered a valid proof.
> ...
> That's a rather extreme example isn't it? Even for this subject. It's like you're subtly saying since we've watched it we're going to some place really hot for all eternity. If that's the case, see you there.*



Who said anything about universal truth? I was just giving my perspective, which according to a subjectivist is completely cool since everyones' opinions are valid, no? Testimony is not the same thing as proof. 

If you want to read personal judgment into my posts, I'll clarify a bit to say that yes I do have "extreme" views about porn because of my own experiences with it and the addiction factor (marriages are devastated and people enslave themselves to porn and to extreme lifestyles surrounding porn because they are unable to practice self-control - it's a dark, insidious, and common thing...). And no, Bundy's is not the only testimony. He just happens to be one high profile and his interview transcripts are readily available on the net.

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## Alric

Anything can be addictive. I would say food is more addictive than porn. There are very few people who go out and rape people and stuff but over half the people in the US are fat. I never seen anyone say "don't eat because its harmful" though. Ok maybe a better example is "Don't eat sweats". Its pretty excepted that you can eat it every once in awhile just don't stuff your face with it. Well same goes for porn.

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## evangel

Because my view on the value of porn is different than yours, I would not compare it with food. I might, however, compare it with something like say... crap (albeit addictive crap).





> those in favour of freedom of expression agree in subjective morality, while accepting that there is more than one person in their soceity, who has a different subjective morality to their own, so concessions are made so that we can express ourselves up until the point that it harms someone else in some way. [/b]



I'm all for freedom of expression... But even you agree with me that lines need to be drawn. Problem is, we may disagree on where those lines should be drawn... What I view as harmful may be very different from what you would view as harmful.

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## IZ

So much Beauty and yet so much filth that blinds it.

So many followers but not enough leaders and dreamers.

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## Awaken

> _Originally posted by IZ_
> *So much Beauty and yet so much filth that blinds it.
> 
> So many followers but not enough leaders and dreamers.*



We need not followers and we need not leaders. We need philosophy. The stories of the cosmos are what hold us together as we were meant to be.

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## Neil

> _Originally posted by evangel_
> *I'm all for freedom of expression... But even you agree with me that lines need to be drawn. Problem is, we may disagree on where those lines should be drawn... What I view as harmful may be very different from what you would view as harmful.*



I agree. That's where we have to make compromises and concessions and agree to disagree.

I just hate censorship because I hate it when people don't respect my chocies, especially when those choices only affect my intimate personal sphere and nobody else's.

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## Awaken

> _Originally posted by Neil_
> *
> I just hate censorship because I hate it when people don't respect my chocies, especially when those choices only affect my intimate personal sphere and nobody else's.*



I feel ya...The 'outsiders' always seem to think they know what's best for everyone. If I were to die at 25 (5 years) in the state I'm in now, I would be eternally happier than if I were to die at 70 living the 'proper' life...

Parents are always riding me about smoking pot..."But the health effects! Oh and the horrible mental effects!" They think they're God's incarnation of the perfect human beings and that I'm just some stupid clouded antisocial pothead. Wow, how little they actually know about me. My mom actually considered that she knows me better than I do... 'nuf said...

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## Alric

If you where my kid I would yell at you for doing drugs too heh. Any one else however, they can smoke as much as they want, I don't care. They just better not drive while they are high, if they do that, well then I hope they go to jail because they could kill someone.

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## evangel

> _Originally posted by Awaken_
> *
> Parents are always riding me about smoking pot...\"But the health effects! Oh and the horrible mental effects!\" They think they're God's incarnation of the perfect human beings ... 'nuf said...*




Nah. They just love you and don't want to see you end up a pot-head. I was one of them for a short while. For what it's worth, I learned that among the many who would shoot you, rip you off, or "friends" with weed who say they're friends "indeed" but really just would not give a rat's ... about you when it came down to it, pot just ain't worth the hassle ...or all the lung cookies.  ::cookiemonster::

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## Awaken

> _Originally posted by evangel_
> *
> Nah. They just love you and don't want to see you end up a pot-head. I was one of them for a short while. For what it's worth, I learned that among the many who would shoot you, rip you off, or \"friends\" with weed who say they're friends \"indeed\" but really just would not give a rat's ... about you when it came down to it, pot just ain't worth the hassle ...or all the lung cookies.*



Yeah, their intentions are good and all, but they are really disrespectful about it sometimes. They bring up judgmental things like 'You're gonna end up doing heroin!' or when I try to use someone else's advice or argument, they ask 'Well is the person a USER??' as if smoking pot = stupid people. They also consider my judgment 'clouded' because of it.

They just see it as a big black hole leading nowhere (and yeah, they've said that too...)

As for the hassle with people who don't actually care about you...Where I'm from, pot creates one heck of an awesome community. I've met many great people through it. Yeah a few aren't really friends and I don't associate with them, but the vast majority are great folks to know. To be honest, I feel more comfortable hanging around people who smoke it, or are at least open about it, than people who are against it.

Lung cookies? hehe  :smiley: 
I'd still be happier if I smoked pot and died at 50 than if I didn't, and died at 80...It's just my path...Not to mention that I really don't trust much of the medical info. I can't help but think there's too much money to be made from anti-drug studies  ::|:

----------


## Awaken

> _Originally posted by Alric_
> *If you where my kid I would yell at you for doing drugs too heh. Any one else however, they can smoke as much as they want, I don't care. They just better not drive while they are high, if they do that, well then I hope they go to jail because they could kill someone.*



I don't care if they are concerned, but they act as if they're the government just because I'm living at home. It creates a lot of tension at times.

As for driving, I've been doing it since I started weed 4 years ago, and haven't even had a small slip-up...I was even skeptical at first, but it's really nothing. Some people are better at it than others, and I find I can concentrate really well. It's been observed by friends as well as family...on many many occasions. I hotly contest that it slows reaction time, negatively affects motor coordination, or impacts speed perception - in myself anyway. All my friends smoke and drive and also have no problems. Medical pot patients also do it.

----------


## Alric

Well I am sure its like drinking, a little won't do much and some can also drive fine while drunk. I would still suggest not doing it, even if you think your good at driving while high. You can't judge your own reaction time, it might seem the same and not really be so. And if the people telling you, your doing good, if they are high they wont notice the difference either.

Some people drink and drive for years and never have a problem. The thing is, it only takes one accident to kill someone.

----------


## Jin

For it, or against it . . .? Hmmm . . . for it? . . . Or against it?  ::|:

----------


## Awaken

> _Originally posted by Alric_
> *Well I am sure its like drinking, a little won't do much and some can also drive fine while drunk. I would still suggest not doing it, even if you think your good at driving while high. You can't judge your own reaction time, it might seem the same and not really be so. And if the people telling you, your doing good, if they are high they wont notice the difference either.
> 
> Some people drink and drive for years and never have a problem. The thing is, it only takes one accident to kill someone.*



I've done reaction time tests on the internet while high and while not high. No difference  :smiley: 
And the other people with me are not always high. Sometimes but definitely not always.
I certainly would not advocate driving high. I was very skeptical myself the first few times I did it. It's not for everyone. But personally, I am very attentive and comfortable, yet aware, in that zone. My mind does less wandering and analyzing, and more linear concentration on the decidedly-subconscious act of driving.
There was some study here, lower mainland BC, saying that 1 in 3 drivers on the road are under the influence of MJ. If the number is even anywhere close to this, wow  :smiley: 

Crap this is going waaay off on a tangent  ::-P:

----------


## Jin

. . . for it or against it . . .?  ::|:

----------


## WerBurN

porno is bad, masturbation/fantisizing is not....

so long as you arent addicted to masturbation (it happens), then its just natural, cause our bodies are meant to live a shorter lifespan than our society is making us live...we are meant to have sex, as far as our bodies are concerned, right after puberty...which is around high-school for our society...we also are meant to die around 30, but due to medical advances we dont...this elonging of our lifetimes, and soceity's pressure to not have sex when we are most meant to (physically) makes masturbation necessary...however, pornography is bad, inasmuch that, in the 50's, a woman could show a guy her ankle, and he would get a stiffy...nowadays, ive known both men and women that have grown disinterested in the human body...they've seen it enough times that it is no longer interesting to them...

----------


## Jin

. . . Masturbation or fantasizing . . .? Masturbation or fantasizing . . .?

. . . Hmmmmm . . .  ::|:

----------


## Awaken

> _Originally posted by Jin_
> *. . . Masturbation or fantasizing . . .? Masturbation or fantasizing . . .?
> 
> . . . Hmmmmm . . .*



Are you indecisive by nature?

----------


## Jin

. . . Hmmmm . . . indecisive by nature . . . hmmmmm . . . indecisive . . . by nature . . .?  ::|:

----------


## Awaken

Wow, didn't see THAT one coming...  :smiley:

----------


## Jin

. . . . . .   ::|:  . . . . . .  ::|:  . . . . . .

----------


## simisu

awaken... i've had same kinda problame with my parents!
talk to them about it!
explain.. reassure them that you're doing it for all the right reasons and not the wrong ones!
and try to teach them about it... tell them that all they THINK they know about it is bullshit (and stick facts in their face till they can't argue anymore) it'll help!
and evantually they might even want to try it (if i got MY dad to want to try... anyone can  ::o: ) 

but make sure you know what you're talking about first!


and Jin...





> For it, or against it . . .? Hmmm . . . for it? . . . Or against it? [/b]



we DON'T care !!!
please dont be wasting anyone's time if you're not going to SAY anything...
and if any of the ADMINS see this... why not deleat it please?

----------


## Awaken

> _Originally posted by simisu_
> *awaken... i've had same kinda problame with my parents!
> talk to them about it!
> explain.. reassure them that you're doing it for all the right reasons and not the wrong ones!
> and try to teach them about it... tell them that all they THINK they know about it is bullshit (and stick facts in their face till they can't argue anymore) it'll help!
> and evantually they might even want to try it (if i got MY dad to want to try... anyone can ) 
> 
> but make sure you know what you're talking about first!
> *



Yeah, to be honest I have made some progress in the last little while. When we started our occasional debates, it felt like Me vs. Dubya on the issue (legalization vs. complete outlaw/demonization). When I started getting my facts in order some more, I came up with some great points. There have been points that I've stuck out there that they can't say anything to because they know I'm right!

They now see that the drug policy is inefficient and whatnot, I've made that quite clear. They also know that drugs don't equal bad people, necessarily - though they seem to want to stress that my judgment isn't clear simply because of drugs.

The thing is that every time I try to push a little more, into the area of acceptance, it goes straight back to the health/mental effects. They're just so intent on listening to the media and government instead of me (they think authority is all-knowing and wants to help people find the 'right' path. AAGH)  ::-P: 

All they want is for me to be completely safe - but then I think, what's the point of forcing myself away from something I enjoy if it doesn't hurt anyone else? I could get hit by a truck on my way to work today (knock wood  :smiley:  ) and then how happy would I have been to give up the drugs?

They just don't see happiness from a chemically-induced/freedom-of-choice perspective. They see it from the law-abiding, take-care-of-your-physical-self side. Two completely different ideologies I guess...Ah well, I'm just grateful that they aren't being completely irrational about it. I guess time will need to be their teacher, and maybe mine - I don't know if I'm gonna smoke pot all my life, I just want the ability to make my own personal decisions. That, to me, is what feeling alive is all about, and I wish they could see that, and be happy about it.

----------


## Death-Wuad

I would have to say I have a natural resentment towards drugs because of the following:

-My mom smoked (cigarettes) during her first 3 pregnancies. They were all girl and they were all miscarriages. It took me a long time to truely understand that I have 3 dead sisters, but when I did, it hit me hard.

-My cousin died a few years ago from, what I think, was heroine


But back to pornography; I agree with the choice to do what you want.

----------


## evangel

> _Originally posted by WerBurN_
> *porno is bad, masturbation/fantisizing is not....
> ...however, pornography is bad, inasmuch that, in the 50's, a woman could show a guy her ankle, and he would get a stiffy...nowadays, ive known both men and women that have grown disinterested in the human body...they've seen it enough times that it is no longer interesting to them...*



...Don't fantasizing and masturbation go hand in hand? I thought you couldn't have one without the other. Ergo, whether you're using your imagination or photographs in a magazine, the principle of lust/sexual fantasy is still the same...

As far as the analogy with the 50s goes, I totally agree. It's sad that it is difficult to be turned on by your own wife because every day you see girls/women in skin-tight tops while flaunting g-string underwear (or the lack thereof) and several inches of skin below the naval... Little is left to the imagination these days it seems - Not to mention what is essentially soft-core porn shown on mainstream TV...

----------


## Seeker

Evangel, my friend, I think you have summarized one of the main dangers of porn, Densitivation.

Sex can be like a drug, kinkier and kinkier acts required to stimulate your interest.  When it comes to the point that someone must fantasize about porn acts or those porn goddesses in order to have relations with his wife, then there is a major problem.

----------


## Alric

It doesn't seem to have that effect on me. A lot of people look better wearing some what normal stuff than walking around half naked. Kind of depends on the person though

----------


## evangel

Believe me, if you looked at enough Hustler magazines, and then looked at a Playboy from the 1950s, you'll get very little or no response from looking at the Playboy. It's just the way the brain is wired. Happens to everybody. It's the same principle as eating every sweet dessert that you like each day after dinner for a month, then switching to sodium-free saltine crackers and water only instead. The crackers just will not compare. 

I can't speak for women 'cause they're wired a little differently, but I'm assuming it's a similar experience.

----------


## Alric

Thats a little extreme. Its more like eating ice cream every day then moving to cake. Might not be AS good but its still good.

----------


## evangel

I like cake (and cookies) better than ice cream.

 ::cookiemonster::  

That's why I used the extreme - to make a point, not a comparison. Anyway, you get what I mean. Desensitization is one definite result of porn in my book.

----------


## Alric

Yea but that could take years of looking at porn like 5 times a day. Realistically you could look at porn every day of your life and it will never lose its effect.

Its like dreaming. You really think you will get tired of dreaming? Even though you dream every night, multiple times a night. What about lucid dreaming? Some people been doing it for a long time, they still have fun doing the same old thing. Can't count how many people say they think flying is the greating thing even though they done it 50+ times.

----------


## evangel

There is something about dreaming, Lucid Dreaming in particular that is incomparable. When I am lucid, my state of mind is such that each experience is new. Being lucid is like being in a constant state of renewal that is indescribably dynamic.

I say that not to continue a bantering argument with you, but simply to say that LDing is a wonderful thing that is not comparible...

As much as my "primal sinful lustful nature" likes to look at beautiful naked women (which is true of most guys, I think) and pictures of them, I still believe that the best way to enjoy sex to its fullest extent is to engage in it in its rightful context (in marriage) without the hindrance of images or memories of images of other women clouding the brain or staining the intimacy that should rightfully and exclusively belong to that one woman that I love (and in my case, WILL love).

----------


## Alric

Then when your 30(not that old) and you get married, your wife could be the first nake woman you ever seen. A long time to wait, and then you have no idea what your doing, its all new to you.

----------


## evangel

::roll::  
I'll put it this way... My future wife will not be dissappointed or unsatisfied regardless of my experience level. Just because someone isn't promiscuous doesn't make them a candidate for "unfulfilling" or "poor" sex. That's a myth generally used by those who are promiscuous in order to portray themselves in a positive light - as "sexually experienced" -as if that were a compliment.  Many times it IS a compliment THESE days, but only because of the liberal and non-sacred view of sex we as a society have grown to embrace (in the U.S. - coastal states in particular) over the last few decades.

Besides that, this is some of what makes the marriage bed interesting... the prospect and challenge of making (and keeping) the experience of sexual intimacy exciting, sacred, and intimate all at the same time. If you have learned everything about sex (through experience) before getting married, there is less of the shared intimacy that comes from experiencing things together for the first time and more of that stuff which strengthens and builds the relationship, preparing them emotionally and maturing them.

----------


## Alric

I am not talking about being "sexually experienced". Talking about your wife gets undressed and your like "Umm whats that?".

----------


## evangel

Ummm... yeah. I think we're talking on a different wavelength. nevermind.

----------


## Alric

If you never seen a naked woman before even if it was just in a picture, you wouldn't know a thing would you?

----------


## Alric

Just to make it clear though, I am not for having sex with just anyone. I personlly believe in waiting untill your married before having sex. Not only to keep it special but if you sleep with a lot of people you have a high chance of getting STDs or Aids, and I don't think anyone wants to get that stuff.

I also don't think not having "experince" is a problem either. Everyone is different anyway and I am sure if you listen to the person your with its easy enough to find out what your doing.

----------


## evangel

Instead of double-posting you can edit your previous posts... (FYI)





> _Originally posted by Alric_
> *If you never seen a naked woman before even if it was just in a picture, you wouldn't know a thing would you?*



One would have to be seriously depraved for that to be possible...
Maybe like living in a cave with lttle or no social interaction...? Seriously, who has not seen such things or at least been told about such things these days?

Porn, albeit soft-core exists on daytime television, not to mention cable, advertising, "non-pornographic based" magazines and other media, and there are many publications (educational, cultural, etc.) that make the act of sex pretty well known even to virgins and young kids. I remember sex-ed classes pretty well from as early as 4th and 5th grade.
Still... good conversation.

----------


## Alric

Yea I know pretty much everyone seen something, which was kind of my point. Can't really say its evil and stuff when everyone has looked at it at some point. Like you said, you would have to live in a cave to avoid it all.

Which was everyone elses point. Seeing a little isn't going to kill you.

----------


## Neil

I accept the argument that porn leads to de-sensitisation but it could be counter-argued by the point that many men find a lady with class and who doesn't show her skin-off too much to be even more attractive.

I think females who dress "tarty" actually de-value themselves and make themselves less attractive. I'd far rather go for someone who had a little bit more self-respect and who didn't make available their boobies for everyone to see.
  8)

----------


## Awaken

> _Originally posted by Death&#045;Wuad_
> *I would have to say I have a natural resentment towards drugs because of the following:
> 
> -My mom smoked (cigarettes) during her first 3 pregnancies. They were all girl and they were all miscarriages. It took me a long time to truely understand that I have 3 dead sisters, but when I did, it hit me hard.
> 
> -My cousin died a few years ago from, what I think, was heroine
> 
> 
> But back to pornography; I agree with the choice to do what you want.*



You're right, this should be in another thread...But it seems other people are ignoring it well enough  :smiley: 



Your mom deliberately chose a self-destructive path, knowing full-well it would affect her offspring. She put her own happiness before the lives of her children, and I think that's sickening  :Sad: 

As for your cousin, it's frightening to be in a place where no one can hear you - and I'm sure that's what (s)he was feeling. I could never bring myself to do heroin - not to mention blow, pcp, meth, crack, whatever. Excessive use is a state where the physical self no longer has a purpose. The numbness of the body is the only satisfying thing left in the world. I can't see why anyone wouldn't resent drugs for this reason...

Pot and mushrooms are good enough for me...They are mild on the physically-destructive side, unlike most other 'harder' drugs, and they're not physically addictive.

Responsible drug use is what I'm trying to get at.

My condolences though...I can't imagine the feelings you're going through about this issue. I am absolutely not in favour of drug abuse, whether it's coffee or morphine. Any drug use which directly affects others, or damages the self to a very noticeable extent is sad  :Sad:  Any situation where the fix takes precedence over everything else is a sad situation indeed.

----------


## IZ

HOLY CRAP!! I'm just dont log in for a couple of days and this thread just grew!!! I dont have time to read all these responds.

But it seems that whatever I respond to, it will only get bashed by anothers point of view.

----------


## Awaken

> _Originally posted by IZ_
> *HOLY CRAP!! I'm just dont log in for a couple of days and this thread just grew!!! I dont have time to read all these responds.
> 
> But it seems that whatever I respond to, it will only get bashed by anothers point of view.*




Try me.

----------


## CT

> _Originally posted by IZ_
> *But it seems that whatever I respond to, it will only get bashed by anothers point of view.*



hey, whats goin on, you seem to be pissed about a couple of things on the boards here? Seen a couple of posts by you where you drop a subtle hint that you dont feel appreciated here.

----------


## Awaken

...and then won't talk about it if asked  ::|:  

We wanna help, IZ, please don't tell us something's wrong and then keep it to yourself. Makes you sound like nothing's really wrong and you just want attention  :smiley:

----------


## Ev

Pornography is just a way of satisfying human desire for sex.

As long as you know that the things you see on the screen are not 

completely real, it is ok.


For that reason, why do I see dreams of sex? I dont really want to see 

them, yet my mind constantly reminds me of it :/

----------


## Lomebririon

HOLY FUCKING SACRED MOTHER OF GOD! I didn't even thik this thread was still being used! I stopped visiting it ages ago.   ::shock::  






> _Originally posted by Ev_
> *Pornography is just a way of satisfying human desire for sex.
> 
> As long as you know that the things you see on the screen are not *
> 
> completely real, it is ok.
> 
> 
> For that reason, why do I see dreams of sex? I dont really want to see *
> ...



Oh yeah. Preach! Our minds constantly remind us of our genetics. There's not really anything religious about it.

----------


## CT

was listening to this song, thought they would fit here. 





> _Originally posted by NOFX_
> *
> \"Vanilla Sex\"
> 
> Don't ever take away from me my pornography
> We obviously don't agree on what's obscene
> I have the right to choose what I
> Want to see and read
> 
> ...

----------


## Awaken

> _Originally posted by Lomebririon_
> *HOLY FUCKING SACRED MOTHER OF GOD! I didn't even thik this thread was still being used! I stopped visiting it ages ago. * *
> *



Amazing, the addiction of pornography, even talking about it draws months worth of attention to one thread  :wink2:

----------


## IZ

Dont you understand? No one can help me. If you cant even help yourself, how do you think you will help me?

----------


## Awaken

> _Originally posted by IZ_
> *Dont you understand? No one can help me. If you cant even help yourself, how do you think you will help me?*



Like I said - TRY ME...

I've been cast aside by society as well, yet I've managed to find my niche, and my understanding. Until you quit assuming everyone's out to get you, and start opening up to people, you will be eternally in a bottomless pit. Please PM me. NO ONE is hopeless.

----------


## IZ

Isn't there a MOD in this place with good morals?

Does anyone here see me as the "Bad Guy"?

----------


## CT

> _Originally posted by IZ_
> *Isn't there a MOD in this place with good morals?
> 
> Does anyone here see me as the \"Bad Guy\"?*



No I dont think you're a bad guy, why should I? 
You have voiced your opinion on this matter and others have respected that, and discussed the things you said. Other then that the last couple of posts seem kind of like you're wallowing around in your own misery, and remind me of annoying gothic people trying to sap attention by acting all sad like noone can understand them. Which is kind of annoying. But i'm sure you got valid problems to deal with so i'm not judging you here.

----------


## IZ

Huh... all that come to mind is "Thank you"

But I am no goth, and please ignore my whinning. I am just someone who has issues like everyone else. Though I think my unskilled social methods may come out like I'm crying out. Just ignore me.  ::help::   ::sniper::

----------


## CT

> _Originally posted by IZ_
> *Huh... all that come to mind is \"Thank you\"
> 
> But I am no goth, and please ignore my whinning. I am just someone who has issues like everyone else. Though I think my unskilled social methods may come out like I'm crying out. Just ignore me. *



its ok. I think I can relate. I'm introverted and a social retard. I know. 
You can PM me if you feel like talking.

----------


## imported_Berserk_Exodus

Yes, a lot more people than you think that are not complete nerds in fact are complete social retards as said above.

No reason to be, don't know why, perhaps it's a neurological disorder or something.  Although it doesn't bother me in the long run, once I'm out of high school I'll actually be able to depend on myself unlike some people.

----------


## gameover

I find pornography funny. It's all so incredibly fake, and lacks any basic sense of love. Now Im not goign to for a second tell anyone else what they should do, but I think porn is completely ridiculolous. A sexual relationship that is meaningfull, where there is love involved, is SO much more satisfying. And to look at porn is to look at loveless sex with crappy actors and actresses. I just don't find it appealing. Porn is something I was really into when I was 12-14, which is quite natural, and quite common. But now, It's only good for laughs.

----------


## lord soth

::shock::  ......  ::shock::

----------


## Awaken

I like that, gameover, there's something not-so-arousing about a woman moaning while getting her shoe sucked, or a bunch of guys filling every orifice they can find just for the sake of the moneyshot  ::roll::

----------


## Death-Wuad

What about the fat people? They often can't find somebody.

no fat chicks

----------


## Human

There is several bad things about pornography.
Pornography makes a wrong picture of what love and sex really is.

I don't watch pornography, but however, I am not shocked some of my friends do. They are 'normal', but I am not.   ::-P:  

I think phornographic paintings is more moral than pictures of real people.
You can think what you want about a painting, but morally not about a person with feelings.

Instead of watching pornography, it's much better to read erotic novels who is *fantasy*.

It's a built-in property in the body and brain, often called nocturnal emissions or wet dreams.
If a person doesn't get a ejaculate for a while, he is more likely to get a wet dream.
Wet dreams does propably happen to stimulate people who don't get ejaculations/are abstaining from anything sexual.
You may find it strange that I mention wet dreams, but I think wet dreams is the way our subconscious handle a lack of sex fantasies, etc.
If you care, why not take a short Google search on wet dreams? You sure will find out that wet dreams are potecially *much* more satisfactory as pornography and that sort of things.  ::lol::  

I have searched for wet dreams in Google some days ago myself, and you can be sure I am convinced some people is enjoying wet dreams more than porn.   ::rolllaugh::  

If you disagree with me,- it's okay. I have propably different viewpoints than the majority, and I'm used to people in real life who thinks I am odd. 
I propably am, but I see no reason to be 'normal', but what I am.   ::goodjob2:: 

Sorry if some of the text was off topic,- but I found it necessary to do a long post about this.

----------


## CT

> _Originally posted by Human_
> *There is several bad things about pornography.
> Pornography makes a wrong picture of what love and sex really is.
> 
> I don't watch pornography, but however, I am not shocked some of my friends do. They are 'normal', but I am not.   
> 
> I think phornographic paintings is more moral than pictures of real people.
> You can think what you want about a painting, but morally not about a person with feelings.
> 
> ...



dude, you know we're on a LD forum right, and you know what all the guys do in their LD's right?  :tongue2:

----------


## Human

> _Originally posted by CT+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CT)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				<!--QuoteBegin-Human
> 			
> 		
> ...



Sex dreams and wet dreams is a taboo, I know.
But that wasn't excatly my point...

----------


## Sassinator

Pornography be it in its litterary form or on VHS or DVD or div format in my mind entertains men its true but its fun for women too and it can be an accessory to couples be they straight or not. As long as all parties concerned in the videos/movies are consenting adults I am okay with it. Though erotic litterature is very entertaining as well. We are all sexual beings and there is nothing wrong with being sexual and enjoying sex and the different media that explores that topic. 

Now if you are talking kiddy porn, beastiality, teen porn, or anything involving real pain (ie. S&M taken to the point were flesh is ripped and blood spews forth) is not cool in my mind. For those first three things I listed the non-adult involved is being taken advantage of and in no way shape or form should they be victimized or otherwise be portrayed as objects of someones desire as they (children, animals, teens) are not of consenting age or of the right species. And I am making a judgement call on behalf of the animals its true but are animals able to communicate with the person that decides that they are to be their sex toy I don't think so, so in which way is it the right of a human to impose themselves sexually on an animal...in my mind its not right at all! 

So basically porn = good as long as ppl aren't abusing it or being abused/attacked in it. So use porn safely and appropriately and nobody will get hurt (as long as the adult entertainment industry maintains its standards with hygiene/health).

----------


## Awaken

Funny how <18 are denied any choice in a personal matter, humm.
Didn't know animals felt shame.
Some people are fucked up and get off on self-mutilation.
Anything emotionally-scarring is bad and that's about it.

 ::?:   ::shock::

----------


## Sassinator

Those who are under 18 maybe should have some choice, but at which age can a person know and understand what there is to know about sex. Legally there is an age at which a persons ability to decide whether or not they want to have sex or not of their own free will....the age differs from province to province, state to state and country to country. 

Awaken > Are you saying an 8 year old can tell a 45 year old that he/she does or doesn't want to do something sexual? There are certain concepts that people just don't grasp at young ages and/or some things certain but not all people can't handle when they are under 18. Though I am sure that there are some people that may be fully ready at 15 or 17.5 or whenever. 

Furthermore, I don't recall saying anything about animals feeling shame. I couldn't say one way or the other what an animal is feeling, aside of course when my cat purrs when I carry it around the apt. 

The issue I have with beastiality is that the animal has no real choice in the matter....as far as I know. That is where the lack of consent kicks in, how the heck is an animal going to consent to sex???? 

Some people jump off bridges, some people self mutilate.....it doesn't mean that I have to like either thing or think its okay. But I am certainly not going to dictate what someone can and can't do...ie. I don't think there should be a law against the acts which involve self mutilation or anything like that. As long of course that it is being done to themselves, and that they are not attacking or mutilating others against their will. Doms are cool, if people want to lick or kiss some ladies' boots and get their tush whipped...go nuts! I don't understand it but I'm not about to condemn someone who does and who enjoys it.

----------


## Awaken

I really didn't want to consider that an 8yo is able to fully understand a decision about sex, though I'm sure there are some who are...It just depends how emotionally-developed the person is. I've heard plenty of no-regrets stories, so I don't look at the issue as good vs bad. I just think that the AOC laws today are ridiculous, because it binds emotion with technicalities, and if one person is technically 'underage', the other person goes to jail, regardless of emotional circumstances. Right now, the law wins, regardless of how much harm it causes. It shouldn't be up to authority to govern what we feel inside. It should be an honest, mutual decision between people, not a commanding black and white answer. Not everyone is out to take advantage of technically-underage people, believe it or not  ::?: 

As for animals, yeah, they have no say in the situation, and yeah, it's REALLY fuckin weird and gross, but I just don't see how spending taxpayers money to jail people for it really does any good. If they're literally abusing the animal, fine, it's animal abuse...But going to jail for porking a dog? I dunno, seems pointless  :smiley:

----------


## wer

I think porno is fine. Some. There IS some sick stuff out there. Old people. Animals. Childeren. But most men look at the normal stuff. I meen, as long as you understand that this is'nt true sex, with to happy couples, and it dos'nt turn you into a complete ass-hole, it's fine.

----------


## pubbles

I personally have no problem with pornography in and of itself, but I must say I'm tired of all the shit on the internet (spam, pop-ups, malicious scripts, etc) that no one can help encountering on occasion that advertises some porn site or whatever. Especially the ones that corrut your computer.

I really don't understand that stuff. If someone's looking for porn, they'll find it. It's not gonna want to make anyone sign up for some site when they get a pop-up about "Teen Amatuers Having A Go At It In Public" while writing a summary report of last year's finances in front of their boss
or something.

----------


## AirRick101

Just in my experience, it's little use to try to either fight porn or to defend it...because I've done both.  And I have little interest in settling a compromise, because I find that there are still tugging values under making a pretend agreement.

I've been a victim of porn...but largely in the sense of feeling guilty about it.  I don't advocate or support the maintaing of pornographic materials, but the external action of stopping porn is not nearly as important as having a true change of heart on things.  I've never made a promise to never look at porn again, but I find that having no attachment to it is good in every case.

----------


## IZ

For once, I feel the same way as someone else in here.

----------


## Neil

It is just a bit of fun. I wish people would stop feeling guilty about being human.

----------


## gameover

I dont feel guilty, I jsut think pornography's ridiculous. It's so fake and is nowhere near a decent substitute for real love. I've got better things to direct my energy towards than that garbage.

----------


## Human

> _Originally posted by Neil_
> *I wish people would stop feeling guilty about being human.*



In my opinion, nobody has a _need_ for pornography or sexual satisfaction; it's a privilegium.
Just think about all those people who never look at pornography, they are fine with it, although the abstinence-reason is propably most often morally or religious.

Of course many people may find it difficult to abstain from pornography, but it's totally possible, if they really want.

The non-lucid dreams has a tendence to be more sexual if you abstain from pornography, wich propably is a extra well-being function from the brain, but not necessary.

----------


## gameover

Sex in dreams is 100 times more satisfying than porn too.

----------


## Human

> _Originally posted by gameover_
> *Sex in dreams is 100 times more satisfying than porn too.*



I think that's very true. It's more realistic.

Interesting that it isn't only me here who don't watch pornography. I feel more normal.    ::thumbup::

----------


## gameover

And it feels better too.

----------


## IZ

Sorry but I prefer the real thing. Though I'm against premarital sex. I just hate anything that isn't real, Like AC air, I hate it because its not real air to me. And alot of other stuff I hate too, like burgers, you thing the meat is real but its not. So I would not like to dream of making love but the real and actual performance of it is what I would prefer. Pornography is just not my thing, TV screen isn't so great. But I would rather wait for the real deal.

----------


## Awaken

I guess it all depends on how 'real' you accept the nonphysical world to be. Some people can get just as much (or nearly as much) enjoyment out of a dream as an event in rational physical life.

----------


## AirRick101

Hehe...I rarely hear of somebody saying they prefer real sex to dream sex, cuz most ppl prefer dream sex, if not liking it just as much.

I can hardly remember lucid dream sex in my experience, but I've definately had some sexual themes in my dreams.  Plus, I've had plenty of other things happen in my dreams that surpass my experience in real life, like experiencing a certain euphoria.  Well, maybe it's because I'm so ignorant of my internal feelings while in waking life, that's why I prize dream content so much.  Of course, it's totally subjective.  It's unlikely to fully understand what each is feeling, so we can't impose what we think we understand about another...

----------


## AirRick101

Oh yeah, I wasn't even talking consistently with the thread topic, lol.

I'd like to clarify one thing in case some people have been thinking the same thing.  

Maybe the sex in porn is impersonal (usually is), and thus is considered to be abused, but I think that all too often, people discard sexuality as a whole when they decide to hate porn, and thus by mistake, disregard sex (and the spice of it) in itself. (this could be unhealthy)  Fidelity is the bigger issue here.  

But, I only know that this is how I was thinking recently.  There were times I was so anti-porn, and I turned out to actually have lowered my respect for sex.  

Just a thought.  ::wink::

----------


## IZ

...............desire............craving..........  .....beauty............fantasy................ADDI  CTION............porn?

----------


## Taosaur

STILL having trouble IZ?  Maybe you need an inhibitor, like the ones the Victorians used, with the spikes.

----------


## OpheliaBlue

I bumped it because I missed it.

Mmmmmmh, poooooorn.

----------


## Haz

I'm for it.......  ::roll::

----------


## imported_Berserk_Exodus

Meh, porn really starts to lose it's luster after awhile really.  I stopped looking at it a long time ago.

----------


## Universal Mind

I have not read all of this thread, but I am confused about what it is about pornography that is supposedly bad for people.  I think it is great that it exists.  Like lucid dreaming, it allows people to explore crazy fantasies.  By watching porn, one can explore really wild sexual stimulation without getting anybody pregnant, without catching an STD, and without cheating on anybody (Well, that ball park issue is being debated in another thread.).  A lot of people really, really get off with porn instead of going out and trying crazy stuff with strangers and groups of strangers.  It's a very good thing. 

On the other hand, I'm not personally into it.  I don't really get anything out of watching other people have sex.  I only like watching women have it with me.  I might get into porn more if the films weren't so poorly made.  Every one I ever saw seemed like it was casted with random people found walking around at the state fair, the scenarios were pathetic because the acting was awful and so was the writing, and at least one of the characters always had some really disgusting action to throw in at some point.  The ones I have seen turned my stomach upside down. 

However, if you are talking about Playboy magazines, I have a different opinion of the quality.  They are a gift from nature.  I really like the articles.   ::wink::

----------


## Soilent Green

Think about it this way... if I don't watch porn, then I'm going to be thinking of _something_ when I'm playing with the one-eyed monk. Personally, I'd prefer it to be somebody impersonal (like porn) than a friend/accomplice..so most likely I'll be thinking of a total stranger... AND THAT COULD BE YOU ANTI-PORN FANATICS!! 

  If I were a woman I'd rather walk the streets knowing that all of the random men I'd run into in public were later going to be jerking it to porn, rather than fantasizing about me... Remember Ladies, I'm fat and ugly...and I'm looking at YOU!!  :OK Bye now:

----------


## OpheliaBlue

> _Originally posted by Soilent Green_
> *Think about it this way... if I don't watch porn, then I'm going to be thinking of something when I'm playing with the one-eyed monk. Personally, I'd prefer it to be somebody impersonal (like porn) than a friend/accomplice..so most likely I'll be thinking of a total stranger... AND THAT COULD BE YOU ANTI-PORN FANATICS!! 
> 
>   If I were a woman I'd rather walk the streets knowing that all of the random men I'd run into in public were later going to be jerking it to porn, rather than fantasizing about me... Remember Ladies, I'm fat and ugly...and I'm looking at YOU!!*



  ::shock::  

That's the best rationalization for porn I've ever heard.

----------


## pyrhho

well.. yeah.. i think soilent green said it best..

but i'm gonna voice my two cents.  The bible specifically says that your body is a temple.  I'm just checking the plumbing, to make sure it's still in working order.  Porn = Draino
If keeping the temple in order is fun, hey, why not.  it's like getting a haircut.  but more fun.

----------


## Universal Mind

It often takes pornographic thoughts for masturbation to be a successful project.  If men don't masturbate or have partnered sex (which is naughtier than just thinking about sex), they will have orgasms while they dream pornographic visualizations.  Thus, if you are a man, unless you are dead, in a coma, or lack sexual organs, you will inevitably have pornographic mental experiences.  They might as well come from screens or pictures.

----------


## Belisarius

The bible passage from the old testament that is used to justify the immoralization of masturbation IMO doesn't have anything to say on the matter(search out the catechism to find the passage I'm talking about.  In it God tells this guy to have a kid, and the way I read it it sounded like he was doing his wife and then pulled out and "spilt his seed on the ground" instead of making her pregnant, so God killed him.  The word instead, or something like it, was definitely in that verse, and because people don't masturbate instead of having kids with their wife, I think it's safe to say he wasn't masturbating.

----------


## pyrhho

i beleive it was like his dead brother's wife, or something...  cause there was a law like that back then or something.

i dunno, i just kinda made that up. but i think it might be right.

----------


## Soilent Green

> _Originally posted by Belisarius_
> *The bible passage from the old testament that is used to justify the immoralization of masturbation IMO doesn't have anything to say on the matter(search out the catechism to find the passage I'm talking about. *In it God tells this guy to have a kid, and the way I read it it sounded like he was doing his wife and then pulled out and \"spilt his seed on the ground\" instead of making her pregnant, so God killed him. *The word instead, or something like it, was definitely in that verse, and because people don't masturbate instead of having kids with their wife, I think it's safe to say he wasn't masturbating.*



It was Onan. Here's an article about the passage (not too poorly written considering the source is "jackinworld.com"  ::lol::  )

http://www.jackinworld.com/library/articles/onan.html

Pyrhho, you're right.

----------


## pyrhho

booya! spewing BS with no back-up triumphs again!

----------


## Howie

> Temtation lies wait for every man. Left unchecked could be their demise.[/b]




We are better than Pornography. 
Don't you have to ask why we have some of these primal intinsts? 

If there is not a God then has our minds evolved and with that evolution comes the distortion of some of our basic instincts.

----------


## IZ

This thing is still alive? Damn it!

I would post a reply about this topic, But I might as well be a Hypocrite.

........Dont ask.

----------


## Soilent Green

> _Originally posted by IZ_
> *This thing is still alive? Damn it!
> 
> I would post a reply about this topic, But I might as well be a Hypocrite.
> 
> ........Dont ask.*




so why did you bump it?

----------


## IZ

Its had its moments and there is still many comments and opinions that haven't been discused.

Plus, I'd hate to see it die, I mean I did create it.

----------


## AirRick101

Everybody's got a different tolerance lv of porn, sum ppl get desensitized more than others.  Like anything, overindulgence in something reduces its enjoyable aspects.

I am personally very disturbed by some of the people associated with making porn, like the directors, and doesn't seem like an ideal job to me.  I get freaked by a lot of their intentions.   I guess, trying to be diplomatic and dealing with porn is risky business.  Have any of you watched "8MM"?

One of the reasons I am somewhat against porn is the idea of any loved one, or relative, being objectified for other's sexual desires.  It disturbs me much.  And I realize the damage it does when I found out what it's like to have your own partner get sexually associated with somebody else.  The anger and jealously is almost unbearable.

----------


## imported_Berserk_Exodus

Only thing I got against it is it greatly debases female worth and creates ideals for sexual conduct and certain female attributes and can result in perversion.

----------


## Soilent Green

Yes. 


porn is a touchy-feely subject...



..It sure is for me, at least. ::goodjob2::

----------


## IZ

Well, I got my porn problem solved. Yep thats right.

I got myself a girlfriend, and then some, and some more, actualy some every night.
So I got to be faithfull to my girl and I just dont feel like wanting to see it anymore either.

I guess thats the power of love.  ::D:

----------


## Soilent Green

> _Originally posted by IZ_
> *
> I guess thats the power of love.*



*flashback to "Back to the Future"*

----------


## Barbizzle

The other day i was tlakign to my brother .

we were talkign about porn and how it messes up the computer 

i told him nto to look at it cuz it messes up the computer, thats whey the old computer is messed up is beacse I used ot llok at porn

he asked " you dont look at it anymore, why?"

I said "I'm a lucid dreamer" 

he thought it was so funy, cuz he knows i lucid dream but he never thoguth that i experinced a form of sexual encounter in them.

----------


## wasup

How old is your brother?

----------


## Barbizzle

he's 14

----------


## Potential

no

----------


## AirRick101

What a post.  Pretty fair of one, I have to say.

It can be a trap, no doubt.  It's risky business, yo!  Depends on how you want to utilize it, indeed.

----------


## spoon

> The destruction of over indulgence in sensual preasure wreaks havoc on the entire Central Nervous System, makes vision weaker. [/b]



That's actually quite funny.  

Masturbating makes you go blind!

boogity boogity boogity

DON'T TOUCH YOURSELF

-spoon

----------


## Soilent Green

> _Originally posted by spoon_
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				The destruction of over indulgence in sensual preasure wreaks havoc on the entire Central Nervous System, makes vision weaker.
> 			
> ...



  ::mrgreen::

----------


## Fallen.Rain

I see that the main arguement against it is that it is demeaning to women. Well, I have to say that I, personally, am not demeaned by it. I tend to think that one can only be demeaned by one's self. If you do something contrary to your conscience or morals then you have demeaned yourself. I feel you can't really demean someone else since you can't decrease their worth as a person. They can do that to themselves tho but that is still their choice. They will deal with it.

----------


## LucidStunna

I watch it daily, its the coco to my pebbles, the yin to my yang, etc.... pRon OWNS m3!!!

----------


## Yume

> _Originally posted by Fallen.Rain_
> *I see that the main arguement against it is that it is demeaning to women. Well, I have to say that I, personally, am not demeaned by it. I tend to think that one can only be demeaned by one's self. If you do something contrary to your conscience or morals then you have demeaned yourself. I feel you can't really demean someone else since you can't decrease their worth as a person. They can do that to themselves tho but that is still their choice. They will deal with it.*



 Male porn stars have no value?

----------


## PSmolik90

"Why would anyone do anything that's degrading to themselves? Would you strip down in front of a crowd of people? Probably not. But would you do it if they were paying you $250 per hour? Or if they paid you $1000 per hour? Maybe then. It doesn't seem so degrading when there's a huge incentive for you to do it. So why do some feminist extremists think pornography is degrading to women? Obviously the women in pornography don't think it's degrading, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Their dignity has a price, and they were willing to sell it. They don't represent all women in general, but only the few who chose to go into that business, just as women who choose not to go into pornography don't represent the women who do. So the phrase "pornography is degrading to women" doesn't make sense. "
-Maddox

Thoughts expressed by said party negate previous argument of pornography is degrading to women.

----------


## OpheliaBlue

> _Originally posted by PSmolik90_
> *\"Why would anyone do anything that's degrading to themselves? Would you strip down in front of a crowd of people? Probably not. But would you do it if they were paying you $250 per hour? Or if they paid you $1000 per hour? Maybe then. It doesn't seem so degrading when there's a huge incentive for you to do it. So why do some feminist extremists think pornography is degrading to women? Obviously the women in pornography don't think it's degrading, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Their dignity has a price, and they were willing to sell it. They don't represent all women in general, but only the few who chose to go into that business, just as women who choose not to go into pornography don't represent the women who do. So the phrase \"pornography is degrading to women\" doesn't make sense. \"
> -Maddox
> 
> Thoughts expressed by said party negate previous argument of pornography is degrading to women.*



I forgot about that Maddox post.

Good point PSmolik90.

----------


## Tron

I am a red-blooded male so typically... I love porn ! 

Ron Jeremy and John Holmes Pwnz0r!!!

----------


## Yume

> _Originally posted by OpheliaBlue+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(OpheliaBlue)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				<!--QuoteBegin-PSmolik90
> 			
> 		
> ...



So infact could we say that people that are trying to make pornography illegal are degrading to mankind because they want to take away free choice towards pornography?

----------


## IZ

Hey I'm back. Porn is.....

----------


## Rakkantekimusouka

I don't know if I already posted in this topic, but I'm too lazy to look through the whole thing right now...

I LOVE YAOI!

Yaoi is gay hentai. Hentai is anime porn. Any questions?  ::tongue:: 

 ::D:   ::goodjob::

----------


## dreamtamer007

Everyone is responsible for there own actions. But it should be restricted from children till there old enough to make mature divisions. I think there is a logical reason why athletes are restricted during a training session and the same abstinence might be of an advantage to lucid dreaming.

P.S. I notice there is more hits to this thread then others.

----------


## IZ

Porn has such a bad name.....

.....and does it look wrong before you recognize it or after?

Its the flesh that attracts, but its the person is the one you hate.

----------


## Belisarius

> _Originally posted by dreamtamer007_
> *Everyone is responsible for there own actions. But it should be restricted from children till there old enough to make mature divisions. I think there is a logical reason why athletes are restricted during a training session and the same abstinence might be of an advantage to lucid dreaming.
> 
> P.S. I notice there is more hits to this thread then others.*



But where do you draw the line?  Many adults aren't capable of making "mature decisions"(which is pretty much impossible to define anyway).  Ineptitude in decision making is no excuse for making regrettable decisions.

----------


## Yume

> _Originally posted by Belisarius_
> *
> 
> But where do you draw the line? *Many adults aren't capable of making \"mature decisions\"(which is pretty much impossible to define anyway). *Ineptitude in decision making is no excuse for making regrettable decisions.*



Age vs. maturity is a hard thing to debate. People just don't want to take the time to see if every individual is mature enough to look at porn so they set an age for it. It's just skipping a job society doesn't want to do. It's like with every other decision like driving. 13 year olds could drive better than some 30 year olds out there. I'm just glad there is a driving test. To deny someone porn who is underage is sort of ridiculous. It just shows that society has no respect for the individuals choices.

----------


## AirRick101

I also am suspicious of trying to draw the line of maturity.  Everyone's different.  Whether you're under or over 18, you don't have different reactions to porn.  I believe in decisions and accountability, but who are we to say when we are or aren't?  There is something more important besides and behind the surface choices we make.

Porn is debatable, and will always stay that way, as well as being controversial.  But is there such thing as a noble motive in being for it?  It may be that the women are doing it for money, but it doesn't dampen the lack of morality that is involved.

Maddox is hella funny, but I think Maddox's opinion on this is sick, especially when admitting that the women do indeed sell their dignity, yet indulges and supports the material...

----------


## OpheliaBlue

I love that we live in a time where porn is fairly easy to acquire.

Hey you know that they say romance novels are the housewives' porn?

Think about it....discuss........

----------


## Lamminated Buddha

> _Originally posted by OpheliaBlue_
> *I love that we live in a time where porn is fairly easy to acquire.
> 
> Think about it....discuss........*



Yeah.  There's like a hundred websites for every perversion or fetish known to man (or woman).  It's just the emotion of lust, gone way out of control.  Economics states where there is a means, there will be ample supply.  And we are loving every bit of it.

----------


## FoolofJoy

I wonder how things would change if each person would make even a small effort (well, at least a bit more than my effort) to be as mindful as the Lamminated Buddha. 
What If....
each of us would choose to observe the effect of just a few of our actions on the world around us, or if I may rephrase, the world that IS us? (i.e. we do not live if plants and animals do not give their lives so that we may selfishly extend our own lives. The cool thing is, as long as we are grateful and aware of this simple observation and observations like it, it's okay to be selfish, it's in our nature as humans) 
What if.... I would reflect upon these totally solid evidential OBSERVATIONS I SO OFTEN IGNORE, yet which are there every moment if I would choose to take a few mindful breaths and allow them to become evident? 
I guess rather than a blanket rule to cover all of mankind, I feel I should start with me as an individual and how I can be more aware of my true nature, my Buddha nature. That's all I can really do. Of course I Should also observe the effect of TELLING other people to indulge in or abstain from porn as well. This is part of what I've just said as well.

 :Question:

----------


## FoolofJoy

Disclaimer: I am influenced by certain ways of thought. This does not mean I go by blind faith. Observing truth and finding faith in solid observations is different than faith found on "what the monk says". I don't take credit for these words in these recent posts, as I reflect, what I observe as best I can, as truth.

10. "Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by 
repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what 
is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon 
specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been 
pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the 
consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you 
yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not 
blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and 
observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and 
abide in them. 

-Kalamata Sutra (the historical Buddha, who by the way WAS not a god, superhuman or anything other than a human that "became lucid" to life. It's kinda like our "aha" experience in our first lucid dream, only related to the topic of life, existence, and that stuff)
Someone make me stop. I've had too much caffeine!

----------


## Lamminated Buddha

amida buddha may not be the most approipiate diety to look forth to for guidence in this area.  many consider Buddhism to be an untrue religion since it just blaket avoids the subject of sexualism altogether.

It does, like most moral codes see lust as an indulgence though.





> or if I may rephrase, the world that IS us? (i.e. we do not live if plants and animals do not give their lives so that we may selfishly extend our own lives.  The cool thing is, as long as we are grateful and aware of this simple observation and observations like it, it's okay to be selfish, it's in our nature as humans[/b]



I am kind of confused what you are saying here?  You mean, if we express gratuide for our indulgences it redeems us from our depravity to it?  I am unsure how you would do this or i it is even possible in the practice of saluting the one eyed wand (and it gets off topic from here) but you should look up the taoists understanding of coharmony within the natural way of existence and rythem of life.  Rather then viewing the consumption of plants and matter as a predatory action this is part of the tao cycle.  In order to expirence the tao (which is a regulatory processes that nourishes balance in the Universe) certain transitions may be made which contirbute futher to the "natural state".  Since it is impossible to abstain from these practices in the first place, I would rather take the view that it is the flow of nature, rather then being bonded into redemption just by enacting the processes of living.

----------


## Yume

> _Originally posted by AirRick101_
> *Maddox is hella funny, but I think Maddox's opinion on this is sick, especially when admitting that the women do indeed sell their dignity, yet indulges and supports the material...*



You sell your dignity ro regain it. Would you rather be stubborn and not have an oppurtunity to make money or pay your bills each month and have a nice life. People use the money for real things. Porn helps the economy and the individuals in the economy because the poor are getting money for stripping down. If I needed to get some money to pay the mortgage so my family could live I would consider porn a last option, but an option at that because it gives me the ability to pay and I can regain my dignity.

----------


## AirRick101

Damn, why do you keep changing your gender??  I never know!

The necessity of working in porn for getting money is not that likely, at least as far I think.  It's kind of like becoming an assassin, your work will depend on your conscience about it.

Part of the reason why I have the opinion I have is because there's a girl in my life I get extremely protective of, she runs into trouble from time to time.  To think of her getting persuaded into doing porn or being taken advantage of breaks my heart immensely.  Sexual predators have approached her before, and it's hard for me to handle.

BTW, I'm a guy, and I hear they don't get too much money in porn anyway.  ::shock::

----------


## bh26

This is an interesting disscussion.  I can't say that I've never had a problem with pornography, but I wish I hadn't.  

I think that anything that takes one's own self-control and ability to choose freely what they do on a daily basis should be avoided.  Now, before you start thinking that I'm pro-porn, let me say that pornography is addicting.  It's addicting like any other drug.  Therefore it impedes your ability to live freely.  

I used to not think it was such a huge deal (I've always thought it was wrong though), until I learned that a lot of people who participate in the creating of pornography (women especially and some men), are pushed or even forced into it.  Others use drugs to lower their inhibitions so they're comfortable doing what they do in front of the camera.  

I don't believe that we're just "animals".  I guess it all depends on your personal beliefs though, which is fine.

Anyway, people should be able to express themselves as they wish, and we live in a free country.  But, I think that we as human beings we really have to change some things.  A kid, 12 years of age, shouldn't have the chance to view pornography, just as they shouldn't be able to smoke, do drugs, or anything else of that nature.

----------


## AirRick101

Well, in my experience as well, it was harder to relate with society while having addiction episodes with porn in the past.  The first taste of it always gives the urge for more....  I don't mean to preach absolute morals or anything, but the fact that it's a habit that compels itself to stay secret and thus requires a level of shame to contain (at least in my case), it makes life harder...  ::?:   I couldn't imagine being totally pro-porn and disregarding everybody else's opinion or reaction.  No, I'm not like that.

The body, mind, soul/spirit, are all interconnected, and each affect one another.  Pornography, although tempting, "satiates" a sexual need, but really digs a deeper hole.  The abundance of lustful images may and usually interrupt exclusivity in future relationships.  Lust cannot be satisfied for long, but it can be reduced.  Oh gosh, I'm becoming preachy, but whatever!

----------


## FoolofJoy

> _Originally posted by Lamminated Buddha_
> *amida buddha may not be the most approipiate diety to look forth to for guidence in this area.  many consider Buddhism to be an untrue religion since it just blaket avoids the subject of sexualism altogether.
> 
> It does, like most moral codes see lust as an indulgence though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's unfortunate that so much information exists proclaiming Amida Buddha to be a deity, Amida is actually Tao. Here's a little bit of info from my Fellowship's website at http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/pureland_s...angha/id21.html

"Amida Buddha is the heart of Shin Buddhist faith and praxis. First revealed by the historical Buddha over 2,500 years ago, the name Amida is derived from the ancient Sanskrit language, Amitabha or Amitayus, which means Immeasurable Life and Light or Oneness. The word Amida is a personification for the supra-transcendent reality which is unborn, uncreated and formless known as Dharmakaya, Nirvana, Emptiness, the One Mind, Boundless Life, the Life Force and Buddha Nature. As the manifestation of this universal truth, Amida is the active caring force that surrounds and permeates us, ceaselessly working to awaken us to reality as it is, Nirvana. She is considered the Great Parent offering unconditional love and universal compassion that assures spiritual liberation for all. With Amida, no one is left behind."

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## FoolofJoy

> _Originally posted by Lamminated Buddha_
> *amida buddha may not be the most approipiate diety to look forth to for guidence in this area.  many consider Buddhism to be an untrue religion since it just blaket avoids the subject of sexualism altogether.
> 
> It does, like most moral codes see lust as an indulgence though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi again  :smiley:    I wanted to adress the common misconception that Buddhism does not adress sexualism.  There may be lack of absolutes in the scriptures of buddhism, however the basic teachings contain the are guidlines for observing the working of  the Tao, and thus allowing us to attempt to blend with these truths of nature. There is really nothing in life Buddhism can't deal with because it is simply the study of truth. As an example, another quote from our site:

"Let go of grasping and suffering stops. I once got attached to an idea about which way the toilet paper roll "should" be put in the holder. Every time it was in "wrong", I would get myself all irritable and surly. The roll of paper had never caused me trouble before I knew how it "ought" to be, so obviously I was causing myself all those problems. By contemplating this, I got over attachment to the idea, and now when the roll is in "wrong" I just turn it around. I no longer make myself and my family miserable about it. Next time you're sitting in the john, look at the roll of ticker tape and think of the people who say "Buddhism isn't concerned with everyday life". If that ain't everyday life, you tell me what is! "  

I agree entirely with your view and was unclear in my post which lead you you believe otherwise. I guess I still feel that "predatory action" as you call it, is what it is. Predatory action is part of the Tao and that is not a bad thing. It is simply important to acknowledge the Tao/Amida Buddha as that Infinite Light and Compassion of the Universe. We should acknowledge that there is something greater than our self-centered ego selves. 

 My observation is that the majority of pornography that I have seen would have a negative effect on those who encounter it. There are some educationally oriented sources which depict loving, caring couples and whos creation was motivated by the desire to help other loving couples. These can be beneficial. Porn is really like anything else, like a computer for example. You can use a computer for looking up child porno, or the wisdom of Lao Tzu. Our motivation for doing something is more important than what we do, as long as our motivation is in accord with the Tao.

I noticed you referred to the teachings of Buddha as "moral codes that see lust as indulgence".  I won't say that's wrong, but I will say I see the teachings of buddha and Lao Tzu to be "guidlines" for living through attaining realization of truth rather than a "literal absolute" to be adhered to in all circumstances such as may may view the Bible scriptures.
I hope that helps, my wording is confusing,
Elkie

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## Lamminated Buddha

hi jc


Thanks for correcting my misconceptions.  simple misuse or incorrect application of wording in all its subtlety can leave great room for misintrepretation.  the sage remains indifferent to the hectic flow of life, instead outwarly observing it, and later inwardly contemplating the true meaning. Seemingly, the foundations of sprituality are decoded using tools of Interlect and allegorical obscurity.  Because there is no true answer for correct or natural sexual behaviour (as opposed to say, the presrciptive virtues of fundementalist christianity), it is up to the sage to dertimine his own mind what is true in liason with the tao.

I hope this is a more correct understanding of buddhaism?   I am neither buddhaist nor taoist though I am now looking outward to get a greater perspective.  My mothers side were buddhists before migrating then converted in what was a little confusing for me.  One day we were eating at a vegetarian restaurant, the next all the buddhaist statues in the house were being smashed as false idols.

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## AirRick101

I also enjoy how Buddhism can be applied to everything, even if it's imaginary..  While a some major religions just leave you in the dark on taboo and endlessly debatable topics, like Catholicism.

I agree that the motive behind doing what you're doing means more than what you're actually doing.  I rarely hear cases of people being convinced through debate and argument.  (it's unlikely a debate won't involve emotions)

Buddhism's more of an applied philosophy than it is religion, everybody has the same potential.  (no, not like Scientology, which is a money milking organization, which works to some extent, but is wayy overrated)

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## FoolofJoy

Those are very good observations my friends. Laminated Buddha, It saddens me to hear stories where the statue of a Buddha is seen as an idol. No statues have any kind of magical power in themselves, however the statue of a Buddha can help to remind us of the Calm, tranquil, peaceful, happy, compassionate seed of love that lies within each and every human, and what the result of that seed coming to fruition as it did in the Historical Buddha Sakyamuni as well as countless other everyday people. A statue of Buddha is not unlike the statue of Mary for the Catholics. Idolatry can take place in any religion unfortunately as a result of ignorance. Another example of correct perception is the candle on the altar, which is not lit to "worship" the Buddha as a god (he was not), but rather to bring our awareness of the LIGHT of TRUTH into the present moment, to help us realize the potential within each and every one of us. The buddha is not separate from us, it is that seed of goodness within us. "Buddha" can just be a personification of this concept. Now tying this into pornography victims will be tricky and perhaps ill-attempted, however I think it is safe to say that anyone can be a victim of pornography.  Even the monk who leads a retreat and speaks with the woman who is suffering from abuse connected to a husband influenced by hurtful porno will feel the pain of the woman. Everything is interconnected. Our actions DO effect others.

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## IZ

I agree with jcbrooks...

          ............ Many families and especialy wifes are being effected by the addiction of pornography in their spouses life. Porn can shatter a family and ruin a bond of love towards the poeple that are special to you. And the worst thing is that you wouldn't even notice porn being the problem, but would blame others for your misfortune, and still keep a close connection with porn.

Well its been nice coming back to respond a bit. I'm off again.  ::cactus::   be back soon.

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## jill1978

It's an interesting topic, and we all like to give our 2 cents me included. I look at porn, alone and with my husband.( not child porn or anything involving people against their will). People have the choice to be in Pornography, and get paid money. We all sell something of ourselves in some way to make a living. Dont feel pitty for porn stars, enjoy the beauty of their bodies without shame. I do.

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## IZ

Ok, I just like to point out that if my girlfriend catches me watching porn, she would kill me!! and I love her for that  ::D:

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## Vampyre

I find porn to be really demeaning, on the half of the people in it. Seeing/watching it I don't find is a big deal at all. But there's certain times that there's women (and maybe men, but I don't know) who are really really good looking, and all you think of when you see them is "Holy crap" he/she "is so damn hot." or something similar. And then you generally just like seeing them. Then after seeing them naked, they become tainted and you no longer crave their looks. You look at them and go "Yeah she's hot. So is a lot of other people."

I suppose I see posing for porn as destroying any sense of innocence you have and becoming part of a huge pool of people who are generally looked down upon.

Just general posing (non-pornagraphic) can be perfectly fine. Even if the person isn't wearing clothes, if they're covered up, then they can sustain their innocence and still be looked at as more of a person. Like a girl who has photo shoots in which she is naked, but the photos don't actually show her breasts or otherwise, that girl who keep that innocence. If she put down her arms or whatever was covering her, then the innocnece is gone and she is regarded as a sex figure, nothing else.

I dunno, there has just been times when I've noticed somebody seeing someone good looking crave to see them naked. But for me, there's times when someone is SO good looking that I don't want to see them naked, and never look at them in any sort of sexual way.

Damn that took longer to explain than I expected.

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## AirRick101

Not sure what to say anymore...

But the motivation behind the porn industry and consumership is enough to express the corruption and "unnecessity of it."  To get the girls to do that shit is enough proof of disrespect for their bodies.  Fuck that, even if it's for money.  Sometimes (no, usually) values are worth more than material goods.  It's kinda like if someone would give me money to kill a man, no amount of money could bribe me.

I myself hate it when a guy only wants to do a hot girl and make sexual innuendos out loud about it, I look at them with pity.  They have no concept of real love.

I can sort of feel Vampyre's post about seeing someone so good looking we don't want to see them naked, or to exploit their physical beauty for our selfish desires.  They are too valuable to us to just use like that.

And IZ, I envy you!    :Mad:  I was worried when my gf said she didn't care if I looked at porn, or even *cheated* on her.  I want somebody possessive!!!

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## Lobe

While I dislike the porn industry immensly, I'm not completely anti-porn.  Looking at a bit of erotic nudity can be useful if you're single.  Tasteful, normal stuff I've got no problem with, I guess the pr0n industry doesn't have a great deal of it though.  I don't think that porn promotes sexual deviance (though unfortunately sexual deviance seems to promote a lot of porn).  It's such an incredibly broad term that it makes it difficult to form a solid stance on.

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## Belisarius

As a matter of policy I would say that the porn industry should be allowed to flourish because people want pornography, and people our willing to provide it.  As long as there's no coercion involved in it I think it should be allowed(in other words, unless there's coercion coercion shouldn't be used to stop it).  The success of the porn industry is a testimony to the fact that it makes people happy, and the money made by the stars themsleves shows that, at least at the time, they feel it is in their best interests.

I think the only real question in this issue is that of policy.

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## AirRick101

Makes people happy???  Porn consumers are caught in the desire to have more, and although the desire gets fulfilled, it was increased and exploited by the porn industry itself.  I understand the educational viewpoint of defending it...but I just sometimes find it hard to ignore the real life indoings of the industry.  If we are talking about the sex movie type, women are destroying their sexual exclusivity for their ideal partner when they do it onscreen with many men (unless they have no feelings about it) and it's just a disturbing thought to me.  I guess it's kinda along the lines of arguing having foreign kids build our Nike shoes for 6 cents an hour...it's unethical, yeah...and sure, we like the shoes, but we don't really need those nike's, the real benefit goes to the manufacturers' desire for financial flourishing.

But I don't mean to sound extremist, because I can't really honestly say I'm perfect, considering my past.  

haha, I know what you mean by tasteful, normal stuff....I've had my fair share of porn absorption, a lot of the stuff out there that's wild, raunchy, and considered "hot" is a big turn off to me because it displays a desperate attempt to milk every last pleasure out of sex....

But yes, it's hard to make a stance on this, I agree.  but I still feel like leaning to one side more than the other.

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## Belisarius

I have to reply to your comment on shoe making in third world countries.  I would much rather working for 6 cents an hour under terrible conditions in a third world country than starving along with my family which is the option here.  Cheap labor is usually crappy labor, capital is often much more expensive in third world countries as well.  In order for this kind of labor to be economical at all, they have to pay them little, or fire them.  It's not like the children(or at least their parents) don't choose to work at these places.

Child labor is perfectly ethical.

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## ElijahJones

This topic is hot, its only a week old and has 200 posts.  Anyway my view on pornography is that in the hands of children it is very detrimental.  Even for adult males I think it causes them to look at things differently, like women for instance.  

Whether someone who is a legal adult should be able to make it and view it if they so choose, I think yes as long as the result is not an infringement on the right of others not to make it or view it.  The fact is our culture bombards us with images everyday that many of us do not want to see, graphic news depictions of death and ever more provocative television and magaizine ads and shows.

The internet solves this in one way because a person with a high quality browser never really needs to see anything other than a web page title and brief description.  I heard that they are about to come out with a .xxx domain. Most porn sites will want to get it because it is advertising and it will allow browsers to better keep children away from their sites which is something that the respectful industry wants to distance itself from especially after the Tracy Lords scandal.

Sometimes the statistics behind things reveal the real areas of concern and with the porn industry I think that a study of how many of the women have come from sexually abusive homes would be very enlightening.  People rarely choose to do anything they think is a step down unless they have a nagging low self-esteem.  In fact for alot of the women who do it it seems like an opportunity, they get paid for doing it and they get to choose when it happens.  The young men have similar stories but there is not such a stigma attached to male porn stars, in fact most porn watchers and distributers are men.  

If one were to visit the very depths of the porn addiction in America, make no doubt you would reveal connections to organized crime (domestic and international), drugs, rape, child molestation and other aspects of human nature so ugly that one would have to hope that this beast does not survive.  

That many humans can rarely do anything in moderation is one reason to regulate porn.  In some ways social tabboos about porn are a protection.  But pornography is an issue that will not go away as long as human beings are alive on this earth.

Personally I try not to view porn because I like it way too much to stop at just one.  A wise old man once said ," All things are mine to choose but I will not be made the slave of anything."

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## Je33ica

> _Originally posted by ElijahJones_
> *This topic is hot, its only a week old and has 200 posts.*



lol, check the year my friend.



nonetheless, it is a hot topic

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## ElijahJones

LOL, totally missed that.  On the for it or against it part I could not vote.  I am for it in the right place and time and for the right people and against it in the wrong place and time and with the wrong people.

BTW Your graphic at that size is making the thread harder to read even at 1024X768

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## Je33ica

> _Originally posted by ElijahJones_
> *BTW Your graphic at that size is making the thread harder to read even at 1024X768*



fixed, sorry for being suck a Nazi    ::happy::

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## InTheMoment

> *je33ica wrote:*
> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE







> suck a Nazi   [/b]



[/b][/quote]

/me breaks out his Nazi uniform.

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## OpheliaBlue

> _Originally posted by InTheMoment_
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> je33ica wrote:
> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
> 			
> ...



[/b][/quote]

/me breaks out his Nazi uniform.[/b][/quote]
lmao I saw that too

Je33's suck nazi joke has been immortalized in DV quotes

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## InTheMoment

> *Ophelia wrote:*
> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE







> Je33's suck nazi joke has been immortalized in DV quotes[/b]



[/b][/quote]

lol...nice...I love those Freudian slips.   :wink2:  ~

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## Placebo

Hmm, don't tell me this thread is finally winding down into senselessness?

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## Je33ica

LMAO!!  how did that happen??  perhaps it was a Freudian slip, i'm so demented!   ::biggrin::

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## Kaniaz

I posted here before but my opinon has probably changed (it was some year ago I think). It goes like this. "Porno all the way." The end.  ::mrgreen::

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## Fetish

no one seems to want to argue the "child Labor " debate a few post up ...interseting   ::|:

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## IZ

"Child Labor"? Concerning childporn or abusement of children in the work field?

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## Oneironaut Zero

Hmm. Ok.
Pornography: For it.

Pornography, in itself, is not a negative thing. The desire to view sex, when it comes right down to it, is instinctually as natural as the desire to participate. Morals placed upon you while growing, whether rational or over the top, distort your  viewpoint either in a positive or negative direction as you get older, overshooting that first, intial truth. No matter whether you are comfortable watching it, or not, are both understandable perspectives, as long as you keep in mind that pornography (Natural acts of pornography) is not wrong.
It is the application of pornography that can take a very natural thing and twist it into a negative, even literally Destructive thing. The internet provides proof of an Infinite number of immoral (By any competent *sp* human standard) sexual exploits. However these are soulless, irresponsible toxins that serve no use, to me, but to degenerize and desensitize society with the parallel agenda of making a quick Buck. 
...with this in mind, I have no arguement that pornography can be Used to do wrong.
But....this is the way of all things. 
A butterknife can be a deadly instrument of carnage when used in the proper fashion.  This does not mean that butterknives should be taken off of the market.
It is in the hands of producers (whether they are 'producing' porn, a sitcom, or a blockbuster action flick.) to take into account the moral influences their work might place on society. If any free-thinking adult wants to watch a program depicting one of the most natural inherant (sp) acts being performed on a screen, who is authorized to call this person Immoral, or just strictly wrong?
You would also have to (breifly, as this should be common sense to adults) bring in the subject of children. As with anything rated Above the obvious safety barrier for a Minor viewing audience, it is up to the Parent to watch over what their children are viewing. It is also up to the adults to recognize (which they have) that children being Used in porn is one of the most horrible acts imaginable, and should be properly dealt with. However these, again, are negatives that stem from a naturally neutral, if not positive form of entertainment.
You can find a rated R movie at blockbuster, filled with violence and/or sex. But it is up to the adults to make sure the minors don't get their hands on them. Some of them may, (or unfortunately alot through the internet) but to condemn the Concept of regular porn, would be to condemn Any viewing material not fit for the eyes of a child. 
Again, at least the way I see it, it is the unfortunate side-effect that some people are willing to cross that moral gray-area and either allow porn itself to get to their children, or others' children (the internet could regulate itself ALOT better than it currently does) and those who promote violence, degradation, pedophilia and other common-sense 'don't-fuckin-do-thats,' that is the destructive force, not porn itself.

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## Technodreamer

I am for porn. I think that the people who are in the porn have chosen to be there, and it's their choice.

I also think that people say they dislike porn because they are insecure. It is natrual to be stimulated by porn.





> It destroys character[/b]



Prove it. I could just as easily say that it builds character.





> What is sick about finding the opposite gender attractive?[/b]



Or the same gender, depending on the person's sexuality.

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## IZ

Its been a while since this topic has died but I felt as an up-to-date status on how the members on this site are doing on this topic, I chose to revive it.

I dont even know if it even belongs here anymore or in the spiritual section now. Unless you feel it effects your spiritual relation, if not then this is just the home for it.

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## Dangeruss

pornography, i think, is a double-edged sword. Let us recall 1984.

The proliteriat received government-issued porn to keep them complacent and under control. This effect is true, I know personally if it weren't for porn I would have gone crazy by now and either ended up a hopeless pervert or an ambitious ladies-man.

The party members were denied any kind of sexual satisfaction, especially porn. Then their sexual frustration was channeled into love of big brother and hatred for Goldstein.

i think it causes a degree of complacency which reduces frustration, but at the same time makes us a bit _too_ complacent. I don't think porn-free is necessarily the way to be, because personally I'd be a much angrier, pushy, and unreasonable person without the minimal satisfaction it provides, but at the same time overindulgence is just as dangerous. Moderation in all things  8)

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## Leo Volont

Well, when it comes to being susceptable and thus victimized by one's own sexuality, one hardly has very many alternatives.  One cannot take one's self to the Animal Hospital and have one's self neutered as one would a tom cat.  I haven't heard of any over the counter medications one can take to deflect the sex urge, that is without other troubling side effects.  Though I suppose one could substitute a great hunger for the sexual appetite and fast to such an extent that one is too weak from starvation to have any resources left to fuel the libido. 

So, given our choices, we can consult a convenient piece of explicit literature once in awhile, or we can go out chasing the Real Thing.  Hmmmmm.  where are the liabilities and risks the greatest?  

It reminds me of what I once told some ignorant Priest when I had gone to Confession, that form required me to confess something, but that what I was confessing should hardly be counted as a sin at all, when it is considered what the alternative could have been.  There can be no comparison at all between entirely hallow and insubstantial fantacies on the one side, and the actual commission of sexual acts on the other... not to mention the trouble and expense that would be involved.  Particularly if one is driven into dating.  then one must match wits with some female, god only knows what her agenda might be.  with all of the emotional manipulations that that could entail, who is to say it could not end in some disasterous marriage.  One could lose one's house and all of one's savings, and for what?  For sex!?  A silly reason when such provocative pornography is so universally available.

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## Slight

I have always been for porn. Nice to watch and see, for both man and woman. Since porn is nothing more than humiliation of women, I stay away from it - if I get to see it anyway, it disgusts me. It almost makes me lose my erection as I masturbate. 
With a girl I would only watch passionate movies going towards this category.

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## Leo Volont

> _Originally posted by Slight_
> *I have always been for porn. Nice to watch and see, for both man and woman. Since porn is nothing more than humiliation of women, I stay away from it - if I get to see it anyway, it disgusts me. It almost makes me lose my erection as I masturbate. *
> With a girl I would only watch passionate movies going towards this category.*



It is mere propaganda that pornography 'humiliates' women.  One only need interview some of the most popular of the Porn Stars and ask them if they feel very humiliated. 

I was once dragged off to an Exotic Dance Club where I witnessed an interesting phenomena... a young woman, one of the Stars, came out in her robe between shows and said to five or six tables of men, "Hi boys, I bet I can make you all say 'sure'". 

Guess what happened.

Simultaneously, like a chant, every man at every table all at once said "Sure". 

What power that young lady held sway over every man in the room.

How does that possibly describe 'humiliation' to any rational person. 

These pornographic young women are perhaps rather empowered by this Pornography.

heck, at least they are making more than they could flipping burgers.

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## Slight

I see what you are saying.
And I also think, that those porn stars acutally can't feel humiliated, otherwise they could just stop doing it - it is not like in a lot of eastern european countries, where young girls are often led to pornography by a more powerful person. 
Still, I see porn movies on the internet, where girls almost puke when getting a facial ... how poor are these girls that keep on doing it? They are not professionals, I know, but by now there are more unprofessional porn movies to see, than professional ones. That is my impression .. 
And I don't think it is enough to see the money when comparing to flipping burgers. 
I don't know what happens to their mental condition if they do stuff they don't necessary like (puking when facial...), because I haven't been a pornstar, but it must leave mental marks in the long run...

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## InTheMoment

My choice of porn is much like my driving...violent, illegal and all over the place.

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## OpheliaBlue

My choice of porn is much like my coffee...hot, black, and with a shot of cream.

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## Ardent Lost

Well i'm not about to read this entire thread, so what i post may have already been said, but i'm going to contribute anyway.

I think that pornography, *like anything in life*, _can_ act as a catalyst to the distortion, be it big or small, of a person's psyche. Just as music can, just as television can etc. However, in order for anything but a superficial change to take place (superficial change being perhaps a small increase in desire to watch/experience sex), i believe a person needs to already be in a slighty warped place to begin with. I mean, the porn industry can be very lucrative. Millions of people buy and watch pornography, but i challenge anybody to suggest every one of those people are sickos or that they all have any desire to go out and start humiliating women. 

I myself enjoy watching porn. I am not, however, crazy or demented or anything like that. And contrary to what many believe, i do not think any less of women than i ever have. In fact, i have tremendous respect and admiration for much of the female spirit.

I think it's also silly for people to deny themselves, or feel embarrassed about one of our most natural traits - lust. Fair enough if you feel no need to view pornography, fair enough if you do not need pornography to satisfy your lust, but some people do. Pornography can be a fantastic release for some people, and can also be quite grounding.

In short, i'm for porn  ::-P:

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## Oneironaut Zero

> _Originally posted by OpheliaBlue_
> *My choice of porn is much like my coffee...hot, black, and with a shot of cream.*



Hey, the girl's got taste!  ::goodjob2:: 

 ::hump:: 
Mwuaha!

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## wombing

my choice of porn is much like the rug in my living room....old, oriental, and soiled with dog feces..

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## InTheMoment

> _Originally posted by wombing_
> *my choice of porn is much like the rug in my living room....old, oriental, and soiled with dog feces..*



LOL...boy do I have some pics for you then!  :wink2: ~

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## OpheliaBlue

oh jesus christ

 ::laughtillhurts::

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## Placebo

While I have a strong liking for pornography myself, I do have an issue with it.
My issue is simply that the women enticed into that world tend to also be dragged into a world of drugs and violence.

Now that isn't to say that it's the rule. But if this is the tendency, then by supporting porn you're encouraging the industry and these women to revel in it further.

Thoughts?

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## InTheMoment

> _Originally posted by Placebo_
> *While I have a strong liking for pornography myself, I do have an issue with it.
> My issue is simply that the women enticed into that world tend to also be dragged into a world of drugs and violence.
> 
> Now that isn't to say that it's the rule. But if this is the tendency, then by supporting porn you're encouraging the industry and these women to revel in it further.
> 
> Thoughts?*



It's like eating meat. Most consumers do not put much thought on the process by which Bessie the Cow becomes Value Meal #1. 

We (and by "we" I mean myself and everyone else that eats meat) are conditioned to accept convenient gratification without much thought on what the animal has to experience/endure. We either don't care enough to research how slaughter facilites operate or we block out the images of animals being slaughtered so as to not feel guilty about eating   ::dancingcow::  .

Basically, human desire can (and in some cases does) encourage illicit procedures in order to provide a service/commodity to the public.

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## AirRick101

Man, resurrected this old thing again?

Pornography is definately not an ideal.  There are pros and cons with it, and too often the cons outweight the pros.  I have friends who are ignorant about it, enjoying their pleasure from their side of the screen whilst not considering the painful drama that happens behind camera.  But this is not an outright claim that it's bad bad bad (at least in a religious tone)  I only come from an analytical point of view.

I get enticed by porn, I'm male, and heterosexual (thankfully), but I try not to.  I don't really want to grow up with a secret of storing a bunch of porno media somewhere where someone may or may not find it.  Them not finding it is not really the point, what matters is what I think of myself when I look at it.  When I relapse, it's usually temporary, I never keep the material, I don't really have a use for it after being "satisfied" ;P and to keep it in the long term only affirms to my mind that I want to sustain this dependency.  

But sex is a natural desire, and should be fulfilled.  Just spose to be done off da screen.

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## sephiroth clock

Porn is basically an outlet of our extremely screwed up society, that has major problems involving sexuality, and healthy and accepted sexuality. The biggest outlet for teens probably, since it is so discouraged and unacceptable for teens at this age.

The problems with porn, is that a lot of it can be bad, sending of a lot of unhealthy sexual vibes, from messed up people, who are not sexually healthy.

On the upside, a lot of it is fun and natural, and thats you should stick with, the other stuff is like a major turn off for me, I hate to watch it.

Basically I have no problem expressing myself sexually through porn, as I'm a teen, and in cavemen days I would be screwing like crazy, but thats not ok in society right now. and that is my major problem obviously.

Yes I agree with airrick above, a lot of porn can just be bad, and be hurtful for those filming and in industry. I can almost immediately when a porn video is not "healthy" and sending off bad vibes. I really hate to watch that stuff and discourage greatly, but healthy sex and fun porn, now that cool.

I'm going to go take a cold shower  ::mrgreen::   later

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## Dangeruss

> _Originally posted by InTheMoment_
> *
> It's like eating meat. Most consumers do not put much thought on the process by which Bessie the Cow becomes Value Meal #1. 
> 
> We (and by "we" I mean myself and everyone else that eats meat) are conditioned to accept convenient gratification without much thought on what the animal has to experience/endure. We either don't care enough to research how slaughter facilites operate or we block out the images of animals being slaughtered so as to not feel guilty about eating   .
> 
> Basically, human desire can (and in some cases does) encourage illicit procedures in order to provide a service/commodity to the public.*



very well said, ITM.

As Kurt Cobain once said, Yes I eat cow, no I'm not proud. I don't think anyone feels proud about wanking to porn, but it's certainly normal human behavior. Dehumanizing or not, it can't be dismissed as barbaric if literally almost everyone (by everyone here I mean everyone who is male and has a computer) is doing it. I don't think I'm comfortable with the phrase 'victim of pornography' because I don't see it as being any more dangerous than any other dispicable normal human behavior. In fact, I'd rather be an avid porn fan than a regular watcher of American Idol or television in general.

That being said, I like my porn like I like my women: free and young   ::D:

----------


## IZ

I'm right there with AirRick 101.

----------


## evilknny9

Well really, i'm for it and it's great stuff, and all this stuff about it being degrading etc., this may be hard to explain but, that's all it's supposed to be.  Porn is there when you want something "other than the ordinary," so you watch it, and then, your *done*.  If porn movies became more "involved" etc. and focused on other aspects of a relationship, it wouldn't be the same, it simply wouldn't have the same effect, and it's not like anyone in their right minds would be turned into a rapist etc. just from watching porn.  You simply enjoy it as it is, and there's no need to go into deep thought about all that goes on behind the camera.  That's why it's so wonderful, most of the perks of sex, but nothing bad can happen from it (to you).  
[Basically, it's like an outlet since you can't go have sex every time you want, but it's not meant to affect/control your life, if it has, then you need help ::D: ]
Eh idunno if that made sense, maybe maybe not but either way, it's a "good" thing to some extent.

(minus the people who have an addiction to it, and can't live without it)

----------


## jacobo

i didn't vote.

sex is natural.

the pursuit of sex is natural.

the exploitation of sex is not natural.

----------


## xcrissxcrossx

> _Originally posted by Gwendolyn_
> *Pornography is in the top ten of lowest forms of entertainment. Besides the fact that it is utterly demeaning and stupid, it just isn't ethical. It's also illegal. I'm not a religious person and morality has nothing to do with it, in my opinion. It's just a parade *of low character.*



It isnt illegal. at least i thought it wasnt.

----------


## AirRick101

Yeah, I think she was specifically referring to child porn or something as wrong as that.  

I suppose in an ideally "Christian" nation as America supposedly is, pornography would be illegal, but the personality of a free country begs to differ, and the results are obvious.

----------


## Lutch

What about strippers? they get paid to do what they do, and if you go Europe i forget thec ountry, but the government actualy supports the strippers they see them as doing services for the community and get paid. 

Im not against porn except the sick wierd shit like Kink for example but if exploited properly theres nothing wrong with it.

----------


## darklordofall

I don't like it in my view anymore, because I lost all intrest in that sort of thing, yet I did come under its allure once, its somethign that happens to most, but as I grew I just shook off the idea, most people have looked at it I'm sure, and it isn't a bad thing in the way some people go on, it is a form of entertainment, and like all if you dont like it its your chocie but it doesnt mean its bad for others, their isn't anything morally wrong with it as it isnt exploitive usually or in a major way, I just believe your views on it come from your experiances of life

----------


## ignatz

I've been perusing the topic as posted and a recurring theme seems to be, "How can it be demeaning if people keep doing it?  Why would someone do something demeaning?"

I say consider yourself lucky if you've never been in the position to have to choose between paying for food/shelter and doing something demeaning.  

Good god, look at all the people who work at Wal-Mart!!

Porn isn't the only way to demean yourself.

----------


## APM

> _Originally posted by ignatz_
> *I've been perusing the topic as posted and a recurring theme seems to be, "How can it be demeaning if people keep doing it? *Why would someone do something demeaning?"
> 
> I say consider yourself lucky if you've never been in the position to have to choose between paying for food/shelter and doing something demeaning. *
> 
> Good god, look at all the people who work at Wal-Mart!!
> 
> Porn isn't the only way to demean yourself.*



What exactly do you mean?

----------


## ignatz

What I mean is people have to get by, pay rent, pay for food, pay for medicine. . . 

There are a lot of ways to make money.  If you're one of the lucky few in the world, you can make a living doing something which you enjoy, something which brings you fulfilment.

Then there's a larger group of people who make a living doing something which they find to be boring or uninteresting, certainly unfulfilling, but where people treat them decently and they make a living wage.

There's an even larger group of people, mostly invisible to middle class people, who do the scut work. . . work that is bad for their health, work that doesn't even pay a living wage, work where the bosses and policies are demeaning.  Now, that could be working as a migrant laborer, forced to take your children out of school to help with the back breaking work of picking crops for almost no money, forced to live in shacks, threatened by unscrupulous employers. . .  It could be working on your back as a prostitute for some pimp who'll beat the shit out of you if you don't come through, it could be working for Wal-Mart, where you don't ever get enough hours to qualify for the all-too-paltry medical benefits and you don't even make enough money to buy any of the cheap-ass junk they sell there. . . It could be working in the porno industry, stripping in a club, getting cum all over your face on film, . . .

Of course, the vast majority of people in the world don't even have THAT option, there are no jobs to be had, even the most demeaning, no food, no shelter. . . But in places where you can afford a computer and time to chat on forums, you can pretty easily ignore the plight of most of humanity.

That's all I meant.

----------


## IZ

ignatz makes a good point.

Also I want to point out that the rest of the world is so different than the US. The Government has worked really hard to shelter us from it and put a nice big blanket on all of our media (even though its reaching the edge of the blanket) there are too many differences that may make you go WHAT! You might say what we got here is all there is and I'm fine with it but thats because you dont know whats out there yet. And pretty much the government doesn't want you to know it. Only if you've travels out of the US you would know what I'm talking about.

----------


## .jared.

I have not read this topic at all. It is way too long. Just thought i would quickly voice my opinion. 

I am against porn. And while i have looked at it (sadly). I think that it corrupts true beauty. 

When we look at porn. We fail to see who those people are and just view them as objects to be used for completely selfish gain. It teaches us to view people irl like that.

----------


## InTheMoment

> _Originally posted by .jared._
> *
> When we look at porn. We fail to see who those people are and just view them as objects to be used for completely selfish gain. It teaches us to view people irl like that.*



You make that sound like it's a bad thing.

----------


## .jared.

> _Originally posted by InTheMoment_
> *
> You make that sound like it's a bad thing.*



It is a bad thing.    ::roll::

----------


## spoon

> _Originally posted by .jared._
> *When we look at porn. We fail to see who those people are and just view them as objects to be used for completely selfish gain. It teaches us to view people irl like that.*



 You know, they do get paid to have sex on camera.  They *are* objects to be used for selfish gain, and not because we're bad people for watching it - because they took money in return for doing something designed to objectify them.  You don't need to see who they really are, because that doesnt matter.  They're naked and having sex on the screen!

And as for viewing people in real life like that, thats a personal problem not one inherent in porn.  If someone cant seperate fantasy from reality they're gonna have a lot bigger troubles than objectifying people.

----------


## auron5500

i too have not read all of this topic as it is far too long...but to voice my opinion i think that pornography is far from a bad thing

masturbation, in the past, was considered immoral and obscene (im assuming many people here have heard that it "makes you go blind" and "you grow hairs on your hands")...masturbation is in not many ways different from pornography...it's personal gratification deriving from sex.
masturbation can, for some at least, increase endurance during sex, and pornograpy can provide information about how some sexual acts are done.

as for pronography being immoral and obscene by degrading the women depicted in it, im gay and i watch porn with blokes gettign facials, and then enjoying it, does that make that man degraded, because i don't think it does.

Also, i have a very intelligent friend who knows more than i do about most things i think, yet he is into acts of bondage on pornography. Does that make him some kind of derranged sexual predator?

That's just "my two cents" on the matter

----------


## OpheliaBlue

> _Originally posted by auron5500_
> *as for pronography being immoral and obscene by degrading the women depicted in it, im gay and i watch porn with blokes gettign facials, and then enjoying it, does that make that man degraded, because i don't think it does.*



youuuuuuuuuuuuu just brought up a very fine point my friend

it's not that it's degrading to be in a porn video...it's only degrading for WOMEN to be in a porn video, because in this day and age, women are still not 'allowed' to be promiscuous, whereas it's ok for men to be.

I hear people talk about the women in these porn videos and how they are soooo objectified....but what about the men in the very same videos...are they not being objectified too? No.....it's a double standard. Gotta clear that up first before we can really go much further into justifying whether or not porn is inherently good or bad.

----------


## .jared.

> _Originally posted by spoon+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(spoon)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				 You know, they do get paid to have sex on camera. *They are objects to be used for selfish gain, and not because we're bad people for watching it - because they took money in return for doing something designed to objectify them. *You don't need to see who they really are, because that doesnt matter. *They're naked and having sex on the screen!
> 
> And as for viewing people in real life like that, thats a personal problem not one inherent in porn. *If someone cant seperate fantasy from reality they're gonna have a lot bigger troubles than objectifying people.[/b]
> ...



It does the same thing to guys. It prevents us from seeing what a man really is. Causes us to see only the image of a person. To only see a sex object rather then a full real person. 

It isnt just degrading to women. Its degrading to men as well imo.





> Also, i have a very intelligent friend who knows more than i do about most things i think, yet he is into acts of bondage on pornography. Does that make him some kind of derranged sexual predator?[/b]



No it makes him human.

----------


## spoon

> _Originally posted by .jared._
> *I'm not saying that its bad for them. A lot of times it is how you said. Im talking about a personal thing. Its not hurting them, its blinding us to what real beauty is. *We see people having sex on screen and we don't see real beauty and real love. We see fake imitations. The more we watch it the further we are pushed from authentic romance.*



 Lets just pretend that I accept that there is no beauty in porn.  When we watch people having sex on screen, you're right, we don't see real beauty - it's not there.  It's not blinding us from some objective ideal, its just absent.  If you don't think porn has any real beauty in it - how can it blind us to what "beauty" really is?

But I think you're saying that people believe it is beautiful, so it pushes them away from a "true definition" of beauty.  Which raises two questions: Why is the beauty that they see not real?  Can you provide some sort of objective definition of beauty that excludes that seen in porn?

Now I avoided mentioning love because, well, who expects to see love in porn?  Sex does not equal love.  Love is not *in* porn, so we're not being tainted by an imitation.  

That idea that we can be tainted by an imitation, or "pushed from authentic romance", where does that come from?  Can I be "pushed from authentic music" like classical by listening to pop music?  Of course not.  Thanks to this nifty brain I'm capable of evaluating different sensory input on different levels.  No-one pretends that pop music is even approaching classical in terms of composition, complexity, etc - yet tons of people have no problem seeing worth, or the _beauty_, in both. 





> Its like the frame of a painting and being told its the whole thing. Authentic beauty and authentic romance is much more then just an image. So the more we see this stuff the less we see the real side of people. The true beauty is lost.[/b]



  Bad analogy - because noone ever tells you that porn is a substitute for real life.  Noone sits you dont and says "look here johnny, this here is *love* and *beauty* conveniently encoded on digital medium for your viewing pleasure".  It seems that you're holding up porn to be this big ideal, that people having sex on screen should be the embodiment of love and beauty.  Porn is just naked people performing sexual acts on screen for money.  Nothing more or less.





> Its just training our minds to think lustfully[/b]



 Well, ITM said it already but - you say that like its a bad thing.  People are mature enough to differentiate between fantasy and reality.  So what, porn trains you to think lustfully - when you're watching porn (or are in front of a naked person).  So does our basic animal nature.  That by no means stops you from appreciating real beauty, or feeling real love.

----------


## Bjango

Sorry if this post offends, but reading all these pro-porn posts has unleashed my agressive, argumentative energy. Although I haven't read this entire thread, I'm going to try and explain my viewpoint the best I can, although I'm sure I'm going to leave holes in my arguments. I'm also going to try and make it as long and obnoxious as I can manage... just for shits and giggles.

Before I start, I'd like to state for the record that I have no religious affiliations and have nothing against people who are religious, but please don't mark me off as "one of those Christians." I am not religious and I never have been.

First off, Porn is degrading. It degrades the people who pose for it, and it degrades the people who look at it. It degrades sex and it degrades intimacy. In this day and age, sex has become a performance. Sex is no longer something special or truly meaningful, it's become a form of entertainment. It's obvious that this degeneration of sex is pretty much due to porn and its influence. 

Porn makes us sexually numb. (Intellectually, not physically.)  It seems that it takes more and more now to get turned on. In certain cultures it used to be that someone could get an honest turn on by just brushing by the person they had feelings for, or just being close to them in their presence. We now live in a culture where we look at/watch porn with our partners so we can "get in the mood". What's wrong with this picture?

And what's this about comparing ourselves to animals? Yes, I guess you could say that we are all technically "animals", but  if we are animals, why do we elevate ourselves above the animal kingdom by creating laws and civilized culture? People say humans are animals when it suits them to say so, but if we are all really animals, why aren't we peeing on fire hydrants and smelling each other's butts?

In response to this argument: "Looking at porn satisfies our primal urges, which is good and healthy..." ...What are we, cave men? We are in no way obligated to constantly satisfy our primal desires! You don't always have to do what "weenie" tells you to do! Personally, I find it very admirable when person refuses to be governed by their "primal urges". To me, it reflects integrity and a @#$%ing backbone. 

Now many will say: "Fine, if you have such a big problem with porn, don't look at it." But unfortunately, we live in a pornographic world, and there's nothing anyone can do to change this. What some people don't understand is porn is _unavoidable._ It's everywhere you look. (Not hardcore porn, mind you.) It's in our TV shows, it's on our billboards and it's in our magazines. Personally, I'm not really into watching a TV commercial with some woman in a bikini seductively washing a car and shaking her soapy ass in my face. Many may disagree, but this in essence is pornographic. ...and I'm not even going to get into the patheticness of advertisements that take advantage of people's lust in order to sell a product. How sad. ...the lowest of the low. 

But leaving that be, porn in essence is everywhere. When it's not in your face in some form, it's manifested in the people you meet. Maybe it's in your boyfriend who wants to tape you guys having sex so he can watch it when he's by himself, or in your girlfriend who wants to do the Britney-Madonna thing with her friend in front of you because she wants to turn you on. Doesn't any of this sound sick and depraved to you guys? Regardless of whether you do these things or not, porn still changes you psychologically. It shapes your ideas, opinions and expectations of sex while promoting shallowness in your character and relationships (for the most part). If I may take the liberty to say this, it shapes you for the worst.  

And just as a side note (a little late, I know)... I'm not attacking Lomebririon, but when he says: 




> These findings are all well and good in theory, but what about real life?" you say? In Japan, where pornography depicting graphic and brutal violence is widely available, rape is much lower per capita than in the United States, where violence in porn is severely restricted. Explain that.[/b]



...Couldn't you explain that by saying that America has a larger population than Japan?

Well, there it all is. My epic post is now complete. Feel free to flame me and my opinions all you want and... have a nice day.  ::wink::

----------


## .jared.

> Lets just pretend that I accept that there is no beauty in porn. When we watch people having sex on screen, you're right, we don't see real beauty - it's not there. It's not blinding us from some objective ideal, its just absent. If you don't think porn has any real beauty in it - how can it blind us to what "beauty" really is? *
> 
> But I think you're saying that people believe it is beautiful, so it pushes them away from a "true definition" of beauty. Which raises two questions: Why is the beauty that they see not real? Can you provide some sort of objective definition of beauty that excludes that seen in porn? *
> 
> Now I avoided mentioning love because, well, who expects to see love in porn? Sex does not equal love. Love is not in porn, so we're not being tainted by an imitation. *
> 
> That idea that we can be tainted by an imitation, or "pushed from authentic romance", where does that come from? Can I be "pushed from authentic music" like classical by listening to pop music? Of course not. Thanks to this nifty brain I'm capable of evaluating different sensory input on different levels. No-one pretends that pop music is even approaching classical in terms of composition, complexity, etc - yet tons of people have no problem seeing worth, or the beauty, in both. [/b]



Porn, contains beauty and love. I never said it didnt. It just doesnt contain all that love is. It just contains the physical representation of love. Like a relationship with a spouse. You see them as physically beautiful and you want them for sex. BUT you also see them as a person. You are not only in love with their body you are in love with their personality, their very existance. You love everything about them. You love who they are. You are missing that in porn. And it is a fake version of what is real.





> Bad analogy - because noone ever tells you that porn is a substitute for real life. Noone sits you dont and says "look here johnny, this here is love and beauty conveniently encoded on digital medium for your viewing pleasure". It seems that you're holding up porn to be this big ideal, that people having sex on screen should be the embodiment of love and beauty. Porn is just naked people performing sexual acts on screen for money. Nothing more or less. [/b]



Then why do you watch it. If its not a substitute for real life? Are you seriously telling me that porn doesn't substitute real sex? So what do you want to do when watching porn. Sex! You are filling your lack of sexual activity (no offence intended) with a fake representation of what you really want. And when you finally get it you will have a distorted view of what love really is because you get a fake physical view of love. It is lacking what you really crave when watching porn. People watch porn because they crave relationship. You are not getting what you crave, instead distorting what you really want and replacing it with a cheap remake. You give nothing. You learn nothing. IN a real relationship you have to give to your partner. IN porn you learn nothing at all of how to give and how to live in a love relationship. Its a waste of time, and its pathetic. 





> Well, ITM said it already but - you say that like its a bad thing. People are mature enough to differentiate between fantasy and reality. So what, porn trains you to think lustfully - when you're watching porn (or are in front of a naked person). So does our basic animal nature. That by no means stops you from appreciating real beauty, or feeling real love.[/b]



I pity you if you think you feel real love from watching porn. That is sad. Porn gives you nothing but release. 

What are you going to do when you have been trained to think lustfully? Watch more porn? walk around with a woody? you get nothing from doing that except stress. Unless you are in a real relationship where you are fulfilled by your partner and your partner is fulfilled by you.

----------


## spoon

> Porn, contains beauty and love. I never said it didnt. It just doesnt contain all that love is. It just contains the physical representation of love. [/b]



 I think you missed it.  Porn does not contain love.  Porn contains sex.  Sex does not equal love.  People in love have sex, but that doesn't mean sex equals love.  





> Like a relationship with a spouse. You see them as physically beautiful and you want them for sex. BUT you also see them as a person. You are not only in love with their body you are in love with their personality, their very existance. You love everything about them. You love who they are. You are missing that in porn. And it is a fake version of what is real. [/b]



It's great you have this nice ideal of love, but again it has nothing to do with porn.  No love in porn.

But lets just ignore that for a second.  This idea that a "fake version of what is real" is somehow damaging, could you please explain this to me?  I fail to see how someone, who is mature enough to be watching porn, can't differentiate between fantasy and reality.  Porn is fantasy, the love you share with someone is a reality.  Even if you think there is love in porn, a _fiction_, - how is this damaging your _real_ idea of love?  





> Spoon:
> ...noone ever tells you that porn is a substitute for real life...
> 
> .jared.:
> Then why do you watch it. If its not a substitute for real life? Are you seriously telling me that porn doesn't substitute real sex? So what do you want to do when watching porn. Sex! You are filling your lack of sexual activity (no offence intended) with a fake representation of what you really want. [/b]



I watch it because it is enjoyable.  It is no more a substitution of real sex than masturbation is, as it is only an aid to masturbation.   Married people masturbate, single people masturbate - everyone (except, it seems, my mormon friends  :smiley: ) masturbates.  Now, do you have a problem with masturbation as well?   Does it ruin the pure ideal of love? 





> And when you finally get it you will have a distorted view of what love really is because you get a fake physical view of love. [/b]



Again. Sex does not equal love.  Sex is sex.  You will probably get a distorted view of sex from porn but that's solved the first time you have it and realise that, even if you and your partner _are_ extremely fit olympic gymnasts, a lot of porn is for show and isn't good technique.





> It is lacking what you really crave when watching porn. People watch porn because they crave relationship. You are not getting what you crave, instead distorting what you really want and replacing it with a cheap remake. You give nothing. You learn nothing. IN a real relationship you have to give to your partner. IN porn you learn nothing at all of how to give and how to live in a love relationship. Its a waste of time, and its pathetic. [/b]



 I really don't know what sort of porn you watch to get this idea.  Porn is not a substitute for a relationship.  People don't watch porn for the complexity of human emotion, people watch it because _people are having sex on screen_.  You aren't "replacing [a relationship] with a cheap remake" -  you're masturbating, something you'd be doing anyway (even if you were in a relationship), with the aid of people having sex.  





> I pity you if you think you feel real love from watching porn. That is sad. Porn gives you nothing but release.[/b]



 I'm repeating myself here cause you didn't notice the last times I mentioned it - porn does not equal love.  You don't get real love from watching porn.  You can get real beauty cause, if you think something is beautiful it is.  My point was that if you think porn does contain beauty, you can still see beauty everywhere else.





> What are you going to do when you have been trained to think lustfully? Watch more porn? walk around with a woody? you get nothing from doing that except stress. Unless you are in a real relationship where you are fulfilled by your partner and your partner is fulfilled by you. [/b]



  That's great.  Really.  Being in a fulfilling relationship really improves your quality of life. However, people still masturbate in fulfilling relationships - and people sure as hell watch porn.  

And as for what you're going to do when you're trained to think lustfully - probably have more sex and masturbate.  Just like normal people with normal hormones do.  People, I might add, who are single or married (or somewhere in between).

----------


## Sekhmet

> _Originally posted by Bjango_
> *Sorry if this post offends, but reading all these pro-porn posts has unleashed my agressive, argumentative energy. Although I haven't read this entire thread, I'm going to try and explain my viewpoint the best I can, although I'm sure I'm going to leave holes in my arguments. I'm also going to try and make it as long and obnoxious as I can manage... just for shits and giggles.
> 
> Before I start, I'd like to state for the record that I have no religious affiliations and have nothing against people who are religious, but please don't mark me off as "one of those Christians." I am not religious and I never have been.
> 
> First off, Porn is degrading. It degrades the people who pose for it, and it degrades the people who look at it. It degrades sex and it degrades intimacy. In this day and age, sex has become a performance. Sex is no longer something special or truly meaningful, it's become a form of entertainment. It's obvious that this degeneration of sex is pretty much due to porn and its influence. 
> 
> Porn makes us sexually numb. (Intellectually, not physically.)  It seems that it takes more and more now to get turned on. In certain cultures it used to be that someone could get an honest turn on by just brushing by the person they had feelings for, or just being close to them in their presence. We now live in a culture where we look at/watch porn with our partners so we can "get in the mood". What's wrong with this picture?
> 
> ...



...Couldn't you explain that by saying that America has a larger population than Japan?

Well, there it all is. My epic post is now complete. Feel free to flame me and my opinions all you want and... have a nice day.  ::wink:: [/b][/quote]

I totally agree with a lot of the points you have made, as this topic makes my blood boil in so many ways. I must thank you because you have vented frustration for both of us!


We live in a porn-saturated world and I am not surprised at all that most of the men on this board have no problem with porn. Porn is generally made for male consumption and most men are not effected by the degredation and objectification that patriarchal reinforced pornography depicts.

I am a feminist and I used to watch porn because I was all "liberal" and open and stuff, but I stopped because I am just so disgusted by the levels of misogyny found in porn - and I am talking about "mainstream" stuff; the "normal" porn per say.

----------


## Leo Volont

Victim?

Of what?  Self abuse?

when the Banking Authorities of every Advanced Nation has now decided that their version of a Perfect Society requries a real 20% Unemployment, then we could see the Pornography Industry as offering jobs that the Established Society is refusing to provide. 

So, it is an odd victim who is grateful for any opportunity to make a living. 

Besides, I am probably not mistakenly too far off when I guess that many women see the exercise of their sexual influence as self empowering.  By exerting so much influence over men, and on their own terms, they hardly feel like victims. 

And would we consider the purchasers of such pornographic materials as victims?  Well, while pornography is not cheap, it is far less expensive then dating, or contracting with escort services, message therapists, or call girls.   And it saves so much time.  Just think of how much time a man wastes going out on a date.  Sitting through dinner.  Sitting through a show.  And even then the chances for sex still depend a lot upon "luck".  Pornography is a sure thing, and it is readily available.  It one;s fingertips, so to speak. 

victim?  I think not.  The real victims are those who get caught up in dating and marriage.  They are the damaged ones for the most part.    What jerkoff was ever ordered by a Judge to give his house over to a woman he hates?

----------


## .jared.

> _Originally posted by spoon_
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Porn, contains beauty and love. I never said it didnt. It just doesnt contain all that love is. It just contains the physical representation of love.
> 			
> ...



thank-you for pointing out what i was trying to say. porn does not equal love. You obviously don't see what i am trying to say. And honestly I really don't care about continuing this. 

 ::-P:  Oh well.

----------


## Zonalcoil

we have all been a victim of porn from the calvin klein to coke a cola ads sex sells in a predonimant capitalistic society in the United States of America.  yes in other cultures that have a more relaxed view of human sexuallity and rightly know the difference of what porn is used for .  than there are other cultures that view porn as a huge no no and a sin.  where a woman can  not even show her face nor any part of her skin while in public.
so depending on how one is raised the perception that one has on porn can vary greatly.   

just looking at the word literally :

pornography: (n)  writings, pictures, etc. intended primarily to arouse sexual desires  

whatever piquies your sexual desire would it be considered porn?

----------


## Introspectre

Pornography is degarding but everyone in it chooses to do so. Also, being a victim of pornography is impossible, porn doesn't jump out of the bushes and grab you.

----------


## Placebo

Not true... I was victimized by it 5 minutes ago. I'm very very traumatized!   ::cry::  
Porn is one of those things that is quite addictive, even if you would rather not play around with it.

----------


## Leo Volont

> _Originally posted by Placebo_
> *Not true... I was victimized by it 5 minutes ago. I'm very very traumatized! * *
> Porn is one of those things that is quite addictive, even if you would rather not play around with it.*



Oh yes, you're feeling quite shaken.

----------


## OpheliaBlue

::wtf2::

----------


## Original Poster

I would just like the mention right now the poll is at:

For it: 69%

Heh, heh.

----------


## Zonalcoil

thats just right down pornagraphic in of itself   ::lol::

----------


## Placebo

> _Originally posted by Leo Volont_
> *Oh yes, you're feeling quite shaken.*



Actually I have bouts of guilt at times.
But the stuff really does become addictive if you're not careful. Perhaps because I have a strong desire to collect things.

----------


## Leo Volont

> _Originally posted by Placebo_
> *
> Actually I have bouts of guilt at times.
> But the stuff really does become addictive if you're not careful. Perhaps because I have a strong desire to collect things.*



If it really bother you, there are two possibilities I could suggest.  The more traditional route is to fast... to suspend eating for long periods.  It cuts down on the libido. 

Also, many of the Anti-depressant Drugs also attack the libido.  But be careful there as the Anti-depressants are extremely addictive... when you go to cut back on them you can get debilitating episodes of vertigo... full down dizzy vertigo.  And even when the Vertigo does not make you fall down, there are little Milli-second bursts of ringing of total disorientation.  It is an odd phenomena.  For just a fraction of a second you lose all sense of up-down orientation.  It is not long enough for you to even to begin to fall down, but it is long enough to panic you into an adrenaline release.   That tends to make people jumpier then they need to be. 

Anyway, it seems to be a complicated procedure, avoiding masturbation.  And yet, how much trouble is it really?  If it ever takes more than a few minutes, then you might have waited.  Also, one does not need the most expensive of materials.  If one's libido is at the high tide of its appetite, then a drawing of a stick figure with long hair and a short dress ought to be enough.  And if it is not, then it could wait. 

But there are people out there who I find it impossible to understand.  That is those people who take aphrodisiacs and pills for erectile dysfunctions.  What for?  if you are not bothered by your Libido then you shouldn't have a problem.  One should let sleeping dogs lie.   If you don't feel like having sex, then why go through the efforts required to stir up something? 

Perhaps people are expecting to deliver to themselves a certain level or frequency of sexuality and sexual experience.   Or pressured by partners.  I can imagine some poor old men who are hounded by their fat and wrinkled little wives into taking hardon medicine.  How demoralizing is that?   So much for getting old with dignity. 

Anyway, if you find yourself spending too much time and money on sexual materials, then maybe you are pushing yourself for more frequency then you should.  The way to gage this is, as I've said before, if it takes you longer then 3 to 5 minutes to do your business, then you are 'playing with yourself' for the sake of playing with yourself.   If your Libido is really at its high tide, then it should not take much more than a flick of the wrist and any page of the Sears catalogue that is not in the automotive or appliance section... unless you have a thing for power tools.

----------


## Daphnes

I approve of pornography, because it gives a form of satisfation to possibly the strongest urge I can imagine. It gives us a way to release some of the tension. There are people out there who are willing to show themselves, and there are people willing to watch.

I think looking at pornography can be an interesting pastime when you have no one to hold.

----------


## Josh_Mac

I don&#39;t think you can say it greatly affect&#39;s lives, you say it&#39;s everywhere but it&#39;s kinda not... really. I see where you&#39;re coming from saying this but if you don&#39;t want to break religious rules it&#39;s pretty clear what to steer away from. also on the poll you can&#39;t lump peoples opinions into two catagories(Donnie Darko anyone) and what do you define as pornography? a women with her boobs out or proper hardcore stuff?

----------


## phoenelai

I feel guilty about it..I really do. Okay, I&#39;m gonna go spank it now.

----------


## acheron

Im surprised that this even came up. Stating religion as a basis for making a point against porn is moronic. There are many religions with many taboos but you dont see people getting worked up about seafood restaurants. People simply have a bias based on personal preference and religion is a quick fix for self justification.
Try this; your religion is against it, so it should be banned, even though my religion has no problems with it? To all those holding a bible of some kind above their head and pointing their self righteus finger at the sex industry... No point in finishing that one.

Personally I approve of porn, because I see nothing objectively wrong with it. Can you?

----------


## Jalexxi

Wait a moment here. There&#39;s nothing inherently wrong with pornography. Pictures, movies, or anything featuring naked people or people engaged in sexual acts are not unethical in itself. Now I&#39;ve skimmed over the thread only a little, but people seem to quote external reasons for condemning porn. Religion, for example, is like acheron said, not a basis for a point. I&#39;ve also seen people citing exploitation as a reason, but it&#39;s important to note that porn does not equal exploitation. The majority just agrees to being filmed or photographed. And then, the addiction. I don&#39;t know about being addicted to porn. I don&#39;t consider myself addicted, though I probably won&#39;t stop watching it unless I had a girlfriend, and I would come back to it if I lost her. But really, where&#39;s the harm here? I can understand objecting to drugs being addictive, because they&#39;re harmful. Porn is not harmful to your mind or your body.

I&#39;ll have more time to read the thread more thouroughly later.

----------


## IZ

Yes its a good point. When searching on the internet for porn now you see more and more "younger" girls rather than the regular age wemon used in porn. (And on some a little too young). The audience for porn is asking for younger beautifull or even cute&#39;r girls to see in the intimate and hardcore fantasy world of porn. Also the result in child rapes.

But also I can see that the younger generation of girls are pushing it too. I remember when I was in High School, and how provocating girls would dress,It would drive any guy wild. Its a while now And as I go visit my old High School, my jaw would litterly drop on how these younger girls have gone from provocative enviroment to Pornographic scene. And some even had the words "F**k Me" on there shorts&#33; Or maybe this is just happening where I live.

----------


## Jess

> And some even had the words "F**k Me" on there shorts&#33; Or maybe this is just happening where I live.[/b]



 ::lol::  That reminds me...I love that scene in Austin Powers when he meets the Japanese identical twins: Fuku-mi and Fuku-yu&#33;&#33; So funny...

----------


## King and God

I think pornography is good myself, and I watch it a couple of days/week. I fail to see how some people think it is immoral to watch it.

----------


## Limitz

Here&#39;s a good theory from Maddox... lol.
"Tugging one&#39;s python, as rudimentary as it may seem, is a skill that is a crucial prerequisite to intercourse. Like all skills, if you don&#39;t use it enough, you become rusty at it. If you become rusty at it, then you won&#39;t be able to procreate, and without procreation, the human race will cease to exist. Therefore, pornography is essential to the survival of mankind."

Okay, this is why porn has a bad name.

"Between all the extreme fisting, foot jobs, bukkake, chubby chick clamp torture, gag sex, bizarre wax torture slaves, circus freaks, balloon animal phallus, piss fetish, spit swapping, strange insertions, femdom mistresses, face sitting, and barf cocks, there&#39;s not much room for the type of porn most of us grew up on - the plain old-fashioned kind where it was just a guy and some chick, or just a chick and some chicks." - Maddox

XD

So that&#39;s a good example of how much sick shit there is on the internet. Masturbation is normal, yes? So what&#39;s wrong with using tools that will help you get to the good part? I don&#39;t think there&#39;s anything wrong with pornography, unless of course you become obsessed and become a rapist like KalmaH said.

----------


## Wolfie

I&#39;m against porn purely for the fact that some people are tricked, abused, raped or even shipped miles to foreign countries all for lust. *That&#39;s* what&#39;s sick. If I was assured that there would be none of that in any porn, I&#39;d be fine with it. Why not use hentai? It&#39;s the same idea.

----------


## Jalexxi

> _Originally posted by Wolfie_
> *I&#39;m against porn purely for the fact that some people are tricked, abused, raped or even shipped miles to foreign countries all for lust. That&#39;s what&#39;s sick.*



Sorry for being a nitpicker, but you shouldn&#39;t be against porn because some people are tricked, abused, raped or shipped. You should be against trickery, abuse, rape and the smuggling of humans. There&#39;s a lot of clean porn around (well, provided you can call porn clean  :tongue2:  ), so being against porn in general is too broad. You&#39;re right about hentai eliminating the possibility of there being abuse (although the US government seems to be concerned about people, especially children, modelling for hentai, but I think they&#39;re being paranoid), but hentai has it&#39;s own downfalls. As the only limit is human imagination, it can get a bit extreme. I don&#39;t think there&#39;s anything really wrong with that, but if normal porn is &#39;degrading of character&#39; according to some, then some of the more extreme hentai would be what? A one-way ticket to complete perversion?

----------


## Wolfie

> Sorry for being a nitpicker, but you shouldn&#39;t be against porn because some people are tricked, abused, raped or shipped. You should be against trickery, abuse, rape and the smuggling of humans. There&#39;s a lot of clean porn around (well, provided you can call porn clean  ), so being against porn in general is too broad. You&#39;re right about hentai eliminating the possibility of there being abuse (although the US government seems to be concerned about people, especially children, modelling for hentai, but I think they&#39;re being paranoid), but hentai has it&#39;s own downfalls. As the only limit is human imagination, it can get a bit extreme. I don&#39;t think there&#39;s anything really wrong with that, but if normal porn is &#39;degrading of character&#39; according to some, then some of the more extreme hentai would be what? A one-way ticket to complete perversion?
> [/b]



I understand that there is &#39;&#39;clean&#39;&#39; porn. I have nothing against it. If you choose to show yourself to the world like that, and give people a good time then why should I stop you? I should have made myself clear with the first post. I don&#39;t think porn degrades character either, only if you get obsessed with it. But then again, obsession over anything is rarely good for you. Also, extreme hentai is better than extreme things being done to real people (unless they want it).

----------


## acheron

Of course they want it. Otherwise they wouldnt be doing it. The porn industry isnt all about exploitation and rape as some people seem to think. 

Apropo, you being against porn because some get tricked into it etc you should also be against money because if there wasnt money there wouldnt be a market for porn. You should be against drinking coffee in the morning because some are allergic to it. Its a complete fallacy.

Porn like _everything_ else has a bad side to it, the side thats corrupted. Condemning it without taking the whole picture into account  equals condemning all forms of international transport because some use it to smuggle drugs.

----------


## AirRick101

I was in the middle of typing up another critical thought as well as my opinion of this issue, but I figured it only would end up pulling in many different directions and induce mixed and confusing responses.  

Porn is basically just made and used for the wrong reasons much of the time, and that&#39;s what makes people see it as wrong.  It&#39;s only when people confuse porno themes with real life situations that it causes problems.  Some people love the stuff, and some people are made uncomfortable with it.  I think to each his own, you can&#39;t really change someone&#39;s mind about this merely by debate.  Porn is basically an outlet for people who want to enjoy a new medium of sexuality, but from there on only controversy sparked.

Hentai is intriguing, it&#39;s true that it doesn&#39;t risk as much human harm and exploitation, but does that mean an ideal world would have hentai as the only kind of porno? lol.  What a thought...

----------


## Limitz

> I&#39;m against porn purely for the fact that some people are tricked, abused, raped or even shipped miles to foreign countries all for lust. *That&#39;s* what&#39;s sick. If I was assured that there would be none of that in any porn, I&#39;d be fine with it. Why not use hentai? It&#39;s the same idea.
> [/b]




Yatta yatta ya... piss and moan... You&#39;re pretty good at it.

Grow up, sissy.

No, really though... Do you honestly expect someone to masturbate to japanese drawings?

Get real...

----------


## Wolfie

> Yatta yatta ya... piss and moan... You&#39;re pretty good at it.
> 
> Grow up, sissy.
> 
> No, really though... Do you honestly expect someone to masturbate to japanese drawings?
> 
> Get real...
> [/b]



Can&#39;t you get a *real* partner? Or do you just prefer to get off over loose strangers?

----------


## OpheliaBlue

I know several people who masturbate to hentai, along with those anthros drawings and those transexual furry things...and in "hell for porno-addicts", the sentence is shorter if you were addicted to drawings vs. real-epople porn

I know, I checked

----------


## SKA

> No this is not a joke, but a serious topic.
> Pornography is everywhere and it destroys character. And maybe you are some person who sees it as no big deal. But it does effect the way we live our lives and make our choices or even can make us feel ashamed by believing that you have broken a religious rule. Now I cant say that I myself am innocent. And I do not deny that I have never seen it or even enjoyed it. But we are humans with emotions that can become confused in this world and do foolish things. But one must conquer is mind and become stronger in mind.
> What are your views on pornography. Dont be shy. 
> [/b]



I find the Sub-name of this Topic already debatable: You cannot be a victim of Internet-Porn: You choose to watch it or choose Not to yourself don&#39;t you?

Pornography is Simply a Human way of Answering and Relieving Natural feelings of Lust.
There is no Love or Passion involved so Porno is usually very Dull and serves as no more than either amusement or to potentiate sexual desire.

I find Porn pretty lame actually. YEAH I&#39;m no ignorant fool, I&#39;ve seen porn of course. 
But allthough I see it as passionless and mindless( I see Passion as Infinitely more Precious than mere Lust )
I don&#39;t see how it can negatively affect me the way you say.

Sex with my Girlfriend or Masturbation (Don&#39;t we all? If you don&#39;t, go seek help...seriously) never makes me feel &#39;&#39;Guilty&#39;&#39; or &#39;&#39;Dirty&#39;&#39;...Just Naturally Human.
I know that &#39;&#39;Dirty&#39;&#39; and &#39;&#39;Bad&#39;&#39; Feeling for sure: But that is what I have only experienced while I was younger and not yet COMFORTABLE and kind of Unknown with Sexuality.

I&#39;m 20 now, and in that sense I have matured enough to be perfectly free, open and shameless about sexuality. What&#39;s so bad about it anyways? I have found nothing but Joy in it. If you DON&#39;T just follow all Lustfull feelings, but Appreciate LOVE over that and think about such things deeply alot, it can not do you any Harm.


Sexuality is a Subconcious Desire/emotion, as is Love, Hatred, Hope...etc  NON of these should lead you to Suffering or ANY discomfort if you ACT from your WISDOM, not from your Spontanious Desires.
As long as you think of your action&#39;s Concequences, instead of just Being carried away by One Desire after the Other, it should never be able to lead you astray.

I noticed that many of my Friends are just being LEAD by these Suboncious Emotions and Desires and it has shown me that when people do that, even Good Things such as Love can actually become a Real Pain and nightmare, as opposed to the Exctatic Dreamy feeling it can bring. This way they act uppon Desire and tyhen Later regretfully think &#39;&#39;What the F*ck have I done&#33;&#39;&#39;. They only become concious and aware of What they&#39;ve done AFTER they&#39;ve done it. I like to do that thinking part Before hand: It keeps me out of alot of trouble and Suffering  ::content::  


This goes for porno, but for many things in life that serve Subconcious Desires: It won&#39;t do any Harm if you dont let these Desires lead you. Instead be in Control of your Desires with your THOUGHTS: Reason, THINK, use WISDOM, and non of these desires can lead you to suffering.

So: PORNOGRAPHY ISN&#39;T WRONG OR IMMORAL...(unless it includes Animals, Children or is born from horrible SexSlavery: that&#39;s just called SICK)

Only a Lack of Active Concious Wisdom can make it possible for a person to be lead into suffering by Lust, Love, Hatred, hope...etc

----------


## mountain

> Maybe I need to get laid.. *Shrugs*
> ~
> [/b]



definitely.

----------


## blade5x

I have seen, and enjoyed it. I _was_ a victim, I almost got addicted.

I have been staying it from it though for a while now (since last semester ended atleast). I felt pretty guilty after watching some as It&#39;s just.. not good. Being 18 at the time (now 19), I couldn&#39;t help but to just "peek" at something so openly available (I have a program at college where I can download anything at amazing speeds, its not a torrent). If I didn&#39;t masturbate after watching porn (I don&#39;t care what any of you think, like 90% of the human population does), I couldn&#39;t get it off my mind for the rest of the day.

----------


## Jalexxi

> I felt pretty guilty after watching some as It&#39;s just.. not good. [/b]



It&#39;s common in about 20% of the people to feel guilty about masturbation... That&#39;s a little gift from society, imparted to you through sexual repression. I&#39;ve had the same feelings some time ago, but they faded.
Anyway, there&#39;s nothing wrong with porn. Sure, stuff can be wrong with porn, like people being exploited, but there&#39;s nothing in porn that makes it inherently wrong. It&#39;s just like driving a car. There&#39;s nothing wrong with that. However, if you drive without a driver&#39;s license, that&#39;s wrong. As is drunk driving. But that&#39;s not a reason to call the entire activity of driving wrong, as it can be done right. It&#39;s the same with porn.

----------


## TweaK

@Topic title: Oh yes, I&#39;ve been so victimized by pornography, it&#39;s been driving me crazy. It nearly made me want to commit-- yeah. You get the point. </sarcasm>

I am pro-porn actually. I will not include arguments as they are already given in this topic.

----------


## DreamDudeDave

Pornography is LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION&#33; 

My Uncle LEFT HIS FAMILY FOR THE PORN INDUSTRY&#33; He had been living double lives...and just this year he left his Wife and Kids and moved to Las Vegas to continue his life in the porn industry. Ever since I learned this..actually I just learned this not 2 weeks ago, I&#39;ve been trying to break my addiction to pornography. I&#39;ve been "trying" to quit for years&#33;&#33;&#33; Just like, (if you&#39;ve ever smoked and been addicted to cigs), you say "I&#39;ll quit".."I&#39;ll quit".."Last Drag"..."Last Pack"..."Last Cig".. You can never quit that way&#33; I&#39;ve quit so many drugs and alcohol and cigs and habits to know that&#33; 

IF YOU READ ANYTHING READ THIS: PORNOGRAPHY HAS BEEN HARDER TO QUIT THAN CRACK AND CIGARRETES COMBINED&#33; 

Yes I smoked Crack..I wasn&#39;t full blown addict yet..but I was with cigs...I even SOLD MY PS2 TO BE GO BUY SOME CRACK&#33;&#33;&#33; YET I QUIT THAT SHIT A GOOD YEAR AGO&#33; AND I WON&#39;T GO BACK. I QUIT WEED, CRACK, CIGS, EXTASY, PILLS, YET PORNOGRAPHY HAS PROVEN TO BE THE HARDEST TO QUIT&#33;

I read an article interview with Eva Angelina (A famous pornstar) and she told her story about how her boyfriend KILLED HIMSELF because she wouldn&#39;t quit the porn business&#33;&#33;&#33; And she still is doing it&#33;&#33;&#33;

LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION.

----------


## mountain

and just on a side note here, how can u be a victim of pornagrophy? did it steal ur purse? i say purse because u must be female to start a thread like this. if pornography is such a big deal, just dont look at it. just mind ya buisness.its not playing on broadcast tv. its not as if ur having it shoved in ur face. if uve been "victimized" by pornography it was only because u were looking for it.





> Pornography is LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION&#33; 
> 
> I read an article interview with Eva Angelina (A famous pornstar) and she told her story about how her boyfriend KILLED HIMSELF because she wouldn&#39;t quit the porn business&#33;&#33;&#33; And she still is doing it&#33;&#33;&#33;
> 
> LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION.
> [/b]



RIGHT ON BROTHER&#33; LEGALIZE PROSTITUTION&#33;

----------


## DreamDudeDave

Dummy it already is.

Both Legal and shoved in our faces.

----------


## mountain

> Dummy it already is.
> 
> Both Legal and shoved in our faces.
> [/b]



first off i was making a joke... why cant anyone just be like when they see a joke first off realize its a joke. then second do one of three things - laugh and post a reply, laugh and dont post a reply, or shake ur head at the stupidity of the person, say to yourself, "that was just idiotic, and then most importantly, _dont post a reply_. nobody needs to be told why there joke is not factually correct.
(ex.) _Mountain: boy would i like to own a monkey&#33; AnonymousMonkeyexpert: no u wouldnt mountain and let me tell u a few reasons why: first off they make faces that are innappropriate for civilized company. also they will shit in their hand and fling there monkey turds around in a festive manner. also they demand much attention..._  and so on. its like people... im not going to the store now to buy a monkey. just laugh and say a pet monkey, thats ludacris&#33; or dont laugh and say thats idiotic, but either way, *move on.*

----------


## Jalexxi

> Pornography is LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION&#33; 
> 
> My Uncle LEFT HIS FAMILY FOR THE PORN INDUSTRY&#33;[/b]



People leave people for all sorts of whacky reasons. Religion, politics, careers. That&#39;s to blame on the people themselves.





> _Originally posted by DreamDudeDave+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DreamDudeDave)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				IF YOU READ ANYTHING READ THIS: PORNOGRAPHY HAS BEEN HARDER TO QUIT THAN CRACK AND CIGARRETES COMBINED&#33;[/b]
> 			
> 		
> ...



I don&#39;t really get your point here. Some guy overreacted and killed himself, and a girl then decided she shouldn&#39;t let him or his ghost run her life? The suicide&#39;s a sad fact, but it happens all the time. Kudos to Eva, though, for not letting it rule her life.

----------


## TweaK

> and just on a side note here, how can u be a victim of pornagrophy? did it steal ur purse? i say purse because u must be female to start a thread like this. if pornography is such a big deal, just dont look at it. just mind ya buisness.its not playing on broadcast tv. its not as if ur having it shoved in ur face. if uve been "victimized" by pornography it was only because u were looking for it.
> RIGHT ON BROTHER&#33; LEGALIZE PROSTITUTION&#33;
> [/b]



Dude, his point is that porn is bad, and he&#39;s not saying to legalize prostitution, he is saying porn IS legalized prostitution, and if you read his post, he&#39;s not for porn at all.





> Porn gives you... nothing. Your health, mental or physical, does not decline from watching porn. Try to stop breathing air. Can&#39;t do it? OMG you are addicted. Except that it doesn&#39;t matter.[/b]



Masturbation has even been proven to be HEALTHY.

----------


## mountain

> Dude, his point is that porn is bad, and he&#39;s not saying to legalize prostitution, he is saying porn IS legalized prostitution, and if you read his post, he&#39;s not for porn at all.
> 
> [/b]



check out that thing i said two posts above urs, about what to do when people are joking. yeeeeessss i realized what he was saying, taht porn is legalized prostitution. yeeeeeessssss.

----------


## DreamDudeDave

*smiles*

Wine is healthy. Masterbation is healty. Water is Healthy. duh. duh. duh.

Abuse is unhealthy. duh.

I don&#39;t believe its natural or morally right for women to sell themselves. I can&#39;t debate that you believe it is morally ok. Cool. Believe and think how you believe and think. I just simply put up some facts and watch the reactions. I&#39;m not going to debate your opinions, because you are entitled to them. It is your right.

Anyways, Mountain, I was completely serious with my post, and your post came right after mine, so I took it as serious too.

----------


## Jalexxi

> I don&#39;t believe its natural or morally right for women to sell themselves. I can&#39;t debate that you believe it is morally ok. Cool. Believe and think how you believe and think. I just simply put up some facts and watch the reactions. I&#39;m not going to debate your opinions, because you are entitled to them. It is your right.[/b]



Well... This is philosophy. If you want to post beliefs, go to the religious section. Here, you&#39;re expected to be able to back up what you say. I was looking for those reasons behind your statement, so I could debate them. But if there are none... Then, ehm... Well, your point is moot. Sorry.

----------


## mountain

> *smiles*
> 
> Wine is healthy. Masterbation is healty. Water is Healthy. duh. duh. duh.
> 
> Abuse is unhealthy. duh.
> 
> I don&#39;t believe its natural or morally right for women to sell themselves. I can&#39;t debate that you believe it is morally ok. Cool. Believe and think how you believe and think. I just simply put up some facts and watch the reactions. I&#39;m not going to debate your opinions, because you are entitled to them. It is your right.
> 
> Anyways, Mountain, I was completely serious with my post, and your post came right after mine, so I took it as serious too.
> [/b]



yeah but i was being retarded. ur post said pron is legalized prostitution, and i as a joke, made it seem as if i had took ur post to mean that u wanted to legalize prostitution, when it was clear that u do not.

----------


## DreamDudeDave

> People leave people for all sorts of whacky reasons. Religion, politics, careers. That&#39;s to blame on the people themselves.[/b]



You seem to be justifying pornography and it&#39;s affect on those involved in it by showing that "it happens elsewhere"...You can do that if you can show that in any of those cases its right to leave your family in those circumstances.





> Cigarettes give you lung cancer. Crack gives you increased chance of heart attack, possible brain damage, and all that goodness. Porn gives you... nothing. Your health, mental or physical, does not decline from watching porn. Try to stop breathing air. Can&#39;t do it? OMG you are addicted. Except that it doesn&#39;t matter.[/b]



If you are identifying women in pornography as objects then you will have a hard time looking at women as anything else but that. That is a mental decline. Seeing pornography in your sleep. That is a decline. When you surf a porn site and come across some pornography image that is unpleasent or even horrifying to see, such as several men peeing on a woman&#39;s face, or a woman having sex with a horse, or any thing else. That can be a cause for mental decline. Pornography is morally degrading in a number of cases. Children can acess porn any time, in fact if you are a kid living in las vegas you can pick up porn for free right out of the curbs or the yellow/white advertising stands. What messages are the Children of Society learning from pornography? 

Breathing oxygenated air, if that can be called an addiction, is a positive one, if I stop, I die. 

And you said there is nothing that porn gives you? Is that true really? Shall we make a list of the Positive and Negative Gains of Pornography? The most positive gain: You ejaculate cum onto a paper towel, the floor, the toilet, a trash can, etc. The most negative gain: Well I&#39;ll let you decide for yourself what the most negative effect is, for there are so many to choose from.





> To continue, of course pornography is hard to quit. It&#39;s natural for the human body to want sex, to want to reproduce. It&#39;s not natural for the human body to be addicted to crack. You&#39;ve got _instincts_ that cause you to be drawn to sex, that&#39;s not the case with crack. Overriding your instincts, while it is possible for humans, is very difficult. That&#39;s the source of the addiction. Not the porn. It&#39;s human nature. It&#39;s like the breathing thing. Stop breathing, and instinct takes over and forces you to breathe. While it&#39;s not that extreme with porn, it&#39;s similar. And again, there&#39;s not really anything wrong with that. What&#39;s the problem with looking at naked girls? In fact, sexual release has been shown to have many health benefits.[/b]



Pornography is hardly reproduction. The abuse of the &#39;human natural faculty to reproduce the human seed&#39; to ejaculate that seed onto a woman&#39;s face is not likely what nature intended. Is it really an insinct to cum in a toilet? I don&#39;t think so. I think its an abuse of the natural process of sex.





> I don&#39;t really get your point here. Some guy overreacted and killed himself, and a girl then decided she shouldn&#39;t let him or his ghost run her life? The suicide&#39;s a sad fact, but it happens all the time. Kudos to Eva, though, for not letting it rule her life.[/b]



Well yeah, kudos for Eva because she doesn&#39;t let something like that get in the way of her dream. She also was raped repeatedly in the ass by her first boyfriend who was considerably older then her when she was about 13-15. My point is that Eva&#39;s ex boyfriend isn&#39;t the only ugly side of pornography. There are millions of other stories I&#39;m sure. At what cost does cum come?





> yeah but i was being retarded. ur post said pron is legalized prostitution, and i as a joke, made it seem as if i had took ur post to mean that u wanted to legalize prostitution, when it was clear that u do not.
> [/b]



I knew what you were doing.

----------


## Jalexxi

> You seem to be justifying pornography and it&#39;s affect on those involved in it by showing that "it happens elsewhere"...You can do that if you can show that in any of those cases its right to leave your family in those circumstances.[/b]



I am saying that you can&#39;t say porn is bad based purely on the fact that one person has left their family because of it. I bet you there were other factors involved as well. It&#39;s not right to leave your family because of porn, of course. But where lies the problem here? Solely with porn? Or with the person who left his family? Or with the family&#39;s stance towards porn? I don&#39;t see being in the porn industry and being in a family as mutually exclusive.





> _Originally posted by DreamDudeDave+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DreamDudeDave)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				If you are identifying women in pornography as objects then you will have a hard time looking at women as anything else but that. That is a mental decline. Seeing pornography in your sleep. That is a decline. When you surf a porn site and come across some pornography image that is unpleasent or even horrifying to see, such as several men peeing on a woman&#39;s face, or a woman having sex with a horse, or any thing else. That can be a cause for mental decline. Pornography is morally degrading in a number of cases. Children can acess porn any time, in fact if you are a kid living in las vegas you can pick up porn for free right out of the curbs or the yellow/white advertising stands. What messages are the Children of Society learning from pornography? [/b]
> 			
> 		
> ...



Again, just because SOME of the porn is wrong, doesn&#39;t mean ALL of porn is wrong. There&#39;s dark sides to riding a bike too, you might get hit by a car&#33; Or hit a pedestrian&#33; Let&#39;s ban riding bikes&#33;

----------


## DreamDudeDave

You know what? I suddenly completely agree with you.

----------


## Jalexxi

That&#39;s good. ^_^

----------


## DreamDudeDave

LOL...You are kidding again right?

----------


## Jalexxi

I believe that a serious mountain may just be a contradiction. A recent study has shown that twelve out of pi times, mountain was kidding.

----------


## mountain

> I believe that a serious mountain may just be a contradiction. A recent study has shown that twelve out of pi times, mountain was kidding.
> [/b]



im always serious in the topics related to lucid dreaming... but once i start going off on a tangent in a topic already on a tngent... its safe to assume im not going to be contributing anything significant to the conversation.

----------


## SeventhGeneration

porn is good if used and produced responsibley.
it keeps lots of insanel horny violent men from attacking inocent women.

----------


## SKA

> Pornography is LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION&#33; 
> 
> My Uncle LEFT HIS FAMILY FOR THE PORN INDUSTRY&#33; He had been living double lives...and just this year he left his Wife and Kids and moved to Las Vegas to continue his life in the porn industry. Ever since I learned this..actually I just learned this not 2 weeks ago, I&#39;ve been trying to break my addiction to pornography. I&#39;ve been "trying" to quit for years&#33;&#33;&#33; Just like, (if you&#39;ve ever smoked and been addicted to cigs), you say "I&#39;ll quit".."I&#39;ll quit".."Last Drag"..."Last Pack"..."Last Cig".. You can never quit that way&#33; I&#39;ve quit so many drugs and alcohol and cigs and habits to know that&#33; 
> 
> IF YOU READ ANYTHING READ THIS: PORNOGRAPHY HAS BEEN HARDER TO QUIT THAN CRACK AND CIGARRETES COMBINED&#33; 
> 
> Yes I smoked Crack..I wasn&#39;t full blown addict yet..but I was with cigs...I even SOLD MY PS2 TO BE GO BUY SOME CRACK&#33;&#33;&#33; YET I QUIT THAT SHIT A GOOD YEAR AGO&#33; AND I WON&#39;T GO BACK. I QUIT WEED, CRACK, CIGS, EXTASY, PILLS, YET PORNOGRAPHY HAS PROVEN TO BE THE HARDEST TO QUIT&#33;
> 
> I read an article interview with Eva Angelina (A famous pornstar) and she told her story about how her boyfriend KILLED HIMSELF because she wouldn&#39;t quit the porn business&#33;&#33;&#33; And she still is doing it&#33;&#33;&#33;
> ...



It wasn&#39;t PORN that Victimised you. It wasn&#39;t Porn that made you a Slave to it. I see you simply have More chance of getting addicted to things as some people simply have. Not even per sé a specific drug: But you were addicted to The &#39;&#39;High&#39;&#39; in general, To cigarettes, weed.

Your Uncle is no barbarian for being in the Porn industry, because there&#39;s nothing wrong with pornography and open shameless Sexuality: The only thing I could blame him if he were my uncle was leaving my aunt like that.

Some people drink coffee on their work: and become Caffeïne addicted: they NEED it or they&#39;ll get tired really fast. The more they drink it the more dependant they become on Coffee for wakefullness. Same with Cigarettes  ALLTHOUGH I must admit Nicotine is HEAVILY addictive indeed. More so than Cocaine probably and much more than Alcohol too.

My point is Some people are much more susceptible to addiction. Of any kind. Usually because they don&#39;t think MINDFULLY about the Concequences of Drugs, Cigarettes, Porn, Weed, Caffeïne...etc. They feel the URGE to do drugs, watch porn, drink coffee or smoke weed...and without really thinking about it they Just give in to this Urge very easily. 

I have done Extacy and enjoyed it, I smoke weed and still enjoy it today, I&#39;ve did Mushrooms and Enjoyed it, I&#39;ve did LSA and Enjoyed it, I&#39;ve watched porn and enjoyed it, I&#39;ve drank Alcohol and ejoyed it:

I did al these things Mindfully. and yeah Then after such aa Good experience there&#39;s no DOUBT that you will have the urge to do it again very soon. Especially with the HEAVENLY great feeling Extacy gives... When you feel like &#39;&#39;Hmm I would really like to space HARD on XTC tonight&#39;&#39; you can Mindfully decide NOT to, because too much of anything can make you an Addict. Some people are strong enough to Resist these impulses and perhaps even Conciously decide to do it once again, but then at least a year later. While other&#39;s struggle and are very weak and just give in to the Impulse that tells you to do it again.


You can only suffer from your own Un-Mindfull behaviour. If you were to think Mindfully about Drugs, Porn..etc you would know that Putting a needle in your Arm and Injecting Heroin is NOT a joke you can afford to make EVEN once in this life: You will be addicted probably instantly. And watching porn all day and never going out is gunna make you a 50 year old man Who has never gotten layed because he doesn&#39;t know how Sexuality works in REAL life. It&#39;s why I wouldn&#39;t want my children to be raised by TV-sex and porn: I would want to tell them all about it myself once they come with &#39;&#39;Questions&#39;&#39; about it.

Porn, or ANYTHING, can only do you harm if you don&#39;t practise it Mindfully.  As for harddrugs such as MDMA: great Experience, but it just Remains very unhealthy stuff. If you are strong enough you can avoid suffering by THINKING about concequences before you just Respond instantly to such Impulses you could enjoy MDMA once or 2ce a year, Or only once in a lifetime. 

Fuck, even somthing as profoundly good as love can HURT you like hell if you don&#39;t &#39;Practise&#39;&#39; it Mindfully.
goes for basically everything Life trhows at you.   You might wanna try Meditation.

----------


## Man of Shred

> If you are identifying women in pornography as objects then you will have a hard time looking at women as anything else but that.[/b]



 LLLOOOOOOLLLL. hey man LOOOOOL. get this: a female fetuses finger themselves in the Womb. in other words: they like the cock&#33;

 and quite frankly. i really wish women would stop looking at me like a sex object  ::roll::   they stare at me all the time and i just know they are undressing me with their eyes. i mean come on&#33; I&#39;m a person i have feelings too&#33;  ::roll::

----------


## IZ

When I say victim, I mean influenced by it. It changes the way you see things. Not out in the open where it shows but in your self conscious decisions in life. And also becoming its slave of addiction. Just like alcoholics are victims of there uncontrolable drinking or like drug addicts are to their drugs. So is porn an addiction to a victim of it. But the 70% of this sites members have followed to the patterns of this world won&#39;t admit that they&#39;re victims of this filth, but can only see from the inside out because of the poison that there minds have accepted as normal. But the 30% who haven&#39;t been victimized see from the outside in...

...and thats where I want to be.  &#33;&#33;&#33;FREE&#33;&#33;&#33;

----------


## Neruo

Oh man I watch porn like every day. Like at of porn. Actually I have another screen on with porn on it  :smiley: 

It doesn&#39;t destroy character. I think generally my morals are better then other peoples, and I have my respect for the older folks, am not a racist and respect woman (as long as they arn&#39;t bitchy).

You are clearly a close minded texas brainwashed christian person, that is probably more likely to rape anyone then I am becouse of your sexual frustation that you now use to start a useless debate against porn. 

Becouse you try to make it so taboo, it is america that has turned the internet into 90% porn. But I have no problem with that 8)

quick edit: Porn isn&#39;t addictive. When I am on holiday for instance, or with my grandparents for a few days, I don&#39;t even Think about porn. I allso don&#39;t show any symtoms that would occur when I would be eighter physically or mentally addicted.

----------


## The Blue Meanie

im a pornstar

----------


## theyearthreethousand

I don&#39;t really enjoy much hardcore but softcore is pretty much the bomb.

----------


## Neruo

> I don&#39;t really enjoy much hardcore but softcore is pretty much the bomb.
> [/b]



I kind of agree. Well actually I both love soft porno, just some hot girls, no penises andI love hard porn... however again, I rather not see penises in my porn ^___^

But I think a woman alone is more pretty than some woman being penetrated by some idiot guy.

-

And there was this guy totally getting emo about how bad porn was. You are an idoit. As long as people use is responsably, like one should use food and ciggarettes responsably, porno is totally harmless, and fun.

And I see nothing wrong with prostitution as long as it isn&#39;t forced. There Are woman that actually like being prostitutes. Actually, girls earn just as much or more money without getting aids and such if they sell themselves on the internet instead of in real life. It&#39;s a win-win situation.

----------


## Symbiotic Entity

> It doesn&#39;t destroy character. I think generally my morals are better then other peoples, and I have my respect for the older folks, am not a racist and respect woman (as long as they arn&#39;t bitchy).
> 
> You are clearly a close minded texas brainwashed christian person, that is probably more likely to rape anyone then I am becouse of your sexual frustation that you now use to start a useless debate against porn. [/b]



Don&#39;t even try and pretend that you haven&#39;t noticed a negative change in your life since you have been watching pornography. More than likely you ignored this change in favor of getting more and more pornography. You think you&#39;ve got it all figured out, that you can just watch it in secret and no one will know, while you still have a pretty good life. I promise you that if you continue that lifestyle your morals will fall out from under you, you will be caught at the worst time watching pornography by your parents or grandparents, and then you&#39;ll find out how addicted to it you really are. 






> It wasn&#39;t PORN that Victimised you. It wasn&#39;t Porn that made you a Slave to it.
> 
> *No, it wasn&#39;t, but it was pornography that started the process.*
> 
> Your Uncle is no barbarian for being in the Porn industry, because there&#39;s nothing wrong with pornography and open shameless Sexuality: The only thing I could blame him if he were my uncle was leaving my aunt like that.
> 
> *You&#39;re turning around the logic here, the uncle left his wife because he was in the porn industry. BECAUSE of porn. Simple as that. Would the makers of children&#39;s cartoons, a completely innocent form of entertainment, leave their wives to travel to Hollywood to continue their career? Don&#39;t even try to claim that pornography isn&#39;t evil.*
> 
> Some people drink coffee on their work: and become Caffeïne addicted: they NEED it or they&#39;ll get tired really fast. The more they drink it the more dependant they become on Coffee for wakefullness. Same with Cigarettes ALLTHOUGH I must admit Nicotine is HEAVILY addictive indeed. More so than Cocaine probably and much more than Alcohol too.
> ...

----------


## Neruo

> Don&#39;t even try and pretend that you haven&#39;t noticed a negative change in your life since you have been watching pornography. More than likely you ignored this change in favor of getting more and more pornography. You think you&#39;ve got it all figured out, that you can just watch it in secret and no one will know, while you still have a pretty good life. I promise you that if you continue that lifestyle your morals will fall out from under you, you will be caught at the worst time watching pornography by your parents or grandparents, and then you&#39;ll find out how addicted to it you really are.
> [/b]



roffle-arious XD

Where again did you find all this facts about porn? Did you do any studies on large scales, did you read any medical journals about it? No you didn&#39;t. You are just frustated becouse your uncle left your familiy or something. I can&#39;t blame your uncle, he just wanted to get a way from you close-minded sick environment.

And getting caught fapping to porn doesn&#39;t make it any worse then it is supposed to be. You clearly lack any form or logic in your reasoning about right and wrong, becouse you seem to find the fact wether people know about it or not a factor. 

Allso, I have been looking at porn for like half my life. There is nothing wrong with it. It doesn&#39;t influence anyones morals. Unlike some retards I do see the difference between porn on tv and love in real life.

And how am I addicted in ANY way if I can just stop looking at porn for months, without ANY synthoms of withdrawl? If I was really addicted I could bring along a porno magazine with the Greatest easy on all my holidays. 

And I think my dad knows I look at porn. I think there are few young males that do not. I think it&#39;s healthy as long as one does not forget it&#39;s fiction.

Allso, are you against mastrubation? In that case, what is the difference between woman you fantasise about and woman in porn. And if you are against mastrubation, why does god give people that do not mastrubate an increased risk of prostate cancer?

Please do explain, sexually frustated sir.

----------


## theyearthreethousand

> But I think a woman alone is more pretty than some woman being penetrated by some idiot guy.
> 
> -
> [/b]



Yeah, sometimes I feel sorry for the females involved when it starts getting nasty. It&#39;s not really a turn on for me seeing a female crying for help during sexual intercourse.

----------


## IZ

Now she left me because of it. She was the only one I ever loved. I&#39;m in hell right now because of it. Even though I&#39;ve been here before, its still the worst pain ever.

I love you Melissa and I&#39;m sorry.   ::damnit::

----------


## Neruo

> Now she left me because of it. She was the only one I ever loved. I&#39;m in hell right now because of it. Even though I&#39;ve been here before, its still the worst pain ever.
> 
> I love you Melissa and I&#39;m sorry.  
> [/b]



Let me get this straight, your girlfriend broke up with you becouse... you looked at porno? That is why I make of your post in regard to the main topic.  Well your girlfriend is kind of silly not to be able to see the difference between phisucal lust and mental lust. If I look at a nice painting, I can find that beautifull. That doens&#39;t mean I do not find my girlfriend any less beatifull. If I look at porn I can find that beautifull. That allso doesn&#39;t mean I find my girlfriend less beautifull, nor does it mean I have any actual feeling for porn that I have for my girlfriend.

Porn is just like a painting, I look at the woman purely superficial. I mean there is no personality to love or like, so there is no love, just phisical lust. Allso that doens&#39;t mean I do not respect the woman in porno, like a nice painting I wouldn&#39;t rape them and piss on them.

But probably your girlfriend&#39;s mind isn&#39;t going to get changed, becouse &#39;Oh no&#33; Porn = satanism&#33;&#33;&#33;11&#39;

----------


## fieldwhy

For some reason people keep on connecting porn with masterbation. I don&#39;t think that either is moraly wrong, because i&#39;m not much into morals. 

I have viewed porn and don&#39;t really enjoy it. I do however masterbate. I know from personal experience it is possible to masterbate without porn and without even visualizing porn. I know that masterbation is a natural process, but i don&#39;t see the argument for porn being natural. Maybe because it isn&#39;t natural for me. 

For me sexual gratification is all pretty cheep and rather boaring. But that&#39;s just me.
Much more exciting is intimacy and compassion and the sort.

----------


## TheNocturnalGent

Ive been a victim of porn. This one time at a party, there was a stripper named savannah james, who also happened to be a pornstar. She almost suphocated me with her chest when she was giving me my lapdance. Itsa dangerous bussiness.
 ::takethatfoo::

----------


## Thai Boxer

I believe moral opposition to pornography usually goes hand in hand with Religious views. Before I get into this, let me say that I am an atheist.

 Ok, pornography is a tool for masturbation. Some people may argue that the two do not go hand in hand, but this is a farce. I believe strongly in the positive effects of masturbation on society as a whole. Right now, we deal with unwanted children, abortion, and the adoption system that is only well established in a handful of countries. The government sees this as an important issue to face, so they set up companies that preach Abstinence, and eat up 1 billion tax dollars a year. These people teach something called &#39;abstinence only&#39; which means that teens are not being properly educated about contraceptive options, and are more likely to have unprotected and unsafe sexual habits. 88% of kids who pledge abstinence, break it within the first year. You can&#39;t stop it, because it shouldn&#39;t be stopped.

 So what is a teen to do? Hormones raging, and a government telling them that they will get all sorts of horrific diseases if they have sex. Seems awful, no? Well there&#39;s a solution. That&#39;s right folks, and we all know it well. Masturbation. It not only relieves pent up sexual energy, but helps to balance out hormones, keeps the prostate healthy and functioning, is the equivalent of 30 minutes on intense cardio exercise. It&#39;s like a miracle drug in the palm of your hand (no pun intended)

 Now, on the issue of porn being demeaning to the women in it. WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING? I know porn stars. They&#39;re happy as can be that they can do what they love for a living. It&#39;s their choice, they&#39;re not forced into it by any means. That, and it&#39;s damn good money for little work. Just because YOU wouldn&#39;t like doing it does not make it bad. If they didn&#39;t want to do it, they wouldn&#39;t.

Some may say that porn is bad because people get addicted to it, and if you&#39;re one of these people, you haven&#39;t thought it through much. People can get addicted to anything. Television, weight lifting, yoga, alcohol. You name it. Now, the difference in say, alcohol and pornography, is that one is bad for you, and is almost impossible to break, and the other is good for you all around. I&#39;m not condoning any addiction here, as no addiction is good, but I am saying that to compare something like porn usage to cocaine is deeply insulting to anyone who has to deal with the nightmares of true addiction.

 On a final note, IZ, If a girl just up and left you for a reason like porn, without talking to you and asking you to stop, she&#39;s not worth your time. You may have loved her, but if she didn&#39;t even try to work things out, you&#39;re far better off without her.

Nothing wrong with a little porn.  ::content::

----------


## mountain

> I am saying that to compare something like porn usage to cocaine is deeply insulting to anyone who has to deal with the nightmares of true addiction.
> [/b]



this summarizes the entire topic, and is the only correct answer to a pornography "addiction". i could nto have said it better. i reccommend this topic be closed now.

----------


## *Dark*

> I believe moral opposition to pornography usually goes hand in hand with Religious views. Before I get into this, let me say that I am an atheist.
> 
>  Ok, pornography is a tool for masturbation. Some people may argue that the two do not go hand in hand, but this is a farce. I believe strongly in the positive effects of masturbation on society as a whole. Right now, we deal with unwanted children, abortion, and the adoption system that is only well established in a handful of countries. The government sees this as an important issue to face, so they set up companies that preach Abstinence, and eat up 1 billion tax dollars a year. These people teach something called &#39;abstinence only&#39; which means that teens are not being properly educated about contraceptive options, and are more likely to have unprotected and unsafe sexual habits. 88% of kids who pledge abstinence, break it within the first year. You can&#39;t stop it, because it shouldn&#39;t be stopped.
> 
>  So what is a teen to do? Hormones raging, and a government telling them that they will get all sorts of horrific diseases if they have sex. Seems awful, no? Well there&#39;s a solution. That&#39;s right folks, and we all know it well. Masturbation. It not only relieves pent up sexual energy, but helps to balance out hormones, keeps the prostate healthy and functioning, is the equivalent of 30 minutes on intense cardio exercise. It&#39;s like a miracle drug in the palm of your hand (no pun intended)
> 
>  Now, on the issue of porn being demeaning to the women in it. WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING? I know porn stars. They&#39;re happy as can be that they can do what they love for a living. It&#39;s their choice, they&#39;re not forced into it by any means. That, and it&#39;s damn good money for little work. Just because YOU wouldn&#39;t like doing it does not make it bad. If they didn&#39;t want to do it, they wouldn&#39;t.
> 
> Some may say that porn is bad because people get addicted to it, and if you&#39;re one of these people, you haven&#39;t thought it through much. People can get addicted to anything. Television, weight lifting, yoga, alcohol. You name it. Now, the difference in say, alcohol and pornography, is that one is bad for you, and is almost impossible to break, and the other is good for you all around. I&#39;m not condoning any addiction here, as no addiction is good, but I am saying that to compare something like porn usage to cocaine is deeply insulting to anyone who has to deal with the nightmares of true addiction.
> ...



[color=#FF0000][b]I DID I BEGED HIM TO STOP CRYING IN HIS FUCKING FACE GIVING HIS SO MANY OPORTUNITIES TO CHANGE AND HE CHOSE HIS PORN, AND WITHOUT ME HE&#39;LL BE DOING MORE STUPID STUFF AND WILL FEEL MORE GUILTY, HE KNOWS WHAT I&#39;M TALKING ABOUT.  AND IZ DON&#39;T MAKE IT SEEM LIKE I LEFT YOU WITHOUT A REASON.  ::shakehead::

----------


## Ne-yo

> [color=#FF0000]*I DID I BEGED HIM TO STOP CRYING IN HIS FUCKING FACE GIVING HIS SO MANY OPORTUNITIES TO CHANGE AND HE CHOSE HIS PORN, AND WITHOUT ME HE&#39;LL BE DOING MORE STUPID STUFF AND WILL FEEL MORE GUILTY, HE KNOWS WHAT I&#39;M TALKING ABOUT.  AND IZ DON&#39;T MAKE IT SEEM LIKE I LEFT YOU WITHOUT A REASON. 
> *



Well It seems like all is good because you two were at Starbucks yesterday sharing a Latte&#39; right?..lol I&#39;m just joking around...

----------


## The Blue Meanie

I&#39;d just like to emphasise again, for the record, that as a pornstar, all this moralising against pornography really makes me upset.  Without people wayching pornography, us pornstars would be out of a job, on the streets, doing god knows what to make ends meet.

So, next time, before you stop your boyfriend from watching porn:

THINK OF THE PORNSTARS, PEOPLE&#33;

Same thing about littering.  Next time, when you go to put a piece of rubbish in the bin on the sidewalk, just stop and think: if nobody littered, janitors and streeetcleaners would be out of their jobs.  Your littering HELPS put food on people&#39;s tables.

----------


## jacobo

i find it immoral... but i also find a bunch of the shit i do immoral.

que sara sara

----------


## IZ

Question: Do you view porn frequently? If so, what is your single status and sexual relationship with your partner(s)?

----------


## *Dark*

> Question: Do you view porn frequently? If so, what is your single status and sexual relationship with your partner(s)?
> [/b]



ask that to yourself&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; and be a man





> Now she left me because of it. She was the only one I ever loved. I&#39;m in hell right now because of it. Even though I&#39;ve been here before, its still the worst pain ever.
> 
> I love you Melissa and I&#39;m sorry.  
> [/b]



whatever israel you are not sorry at all and you know it.

----------


## Gez

I dont MIND porno,  i just hate the whole sleazy industry and what they subject women to, but i guess they put it on themselves :S

----------


## spoon

> I dont MIND porno,  i just hate the whole sleazy industry and what they subject women to, but i guess they put it on themselves :S
> [/b]



You know, outside of porn that&#39;s trying to be exploititative (max hardcore etc) there&#39;s not that much bad in it for women.  They are frequently paid more then male porn stars.  I&#39;ll let you in on a little secret.... porn stars actually like having sex in front of the camera =D.  It&#39;s not degrading.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("IZ")</div>



> Question: Do you view porn frequently? If so, what is your single status and sexual relationship with your partner(s)?[/b]



Yes, partner ~2 years, great =D.  Why would porn impact on a sexual relationship anyway?  It&#39;s not like I watch porn _instead_ of having sex.  It&#39;s not like moving pictures on the screen can evoke any sort of emotional bond to replace the one I have with my girlfriend.

But I guess the question is, if I was asked to stop completely (like you)... would I?  I guess I would if she showed me some sort of valid reasoning.  It&#39;s the &#39;valid&#39; part im guessing would be hard.

----------


## Neruo

> blabla, porno explpoids people, blabla
> [/b]



I do agree that people exploids people (especially women). There should be like a &#39;biological correct&#39; stamp on porn dvd&#39;s that make porn and not exploid their actors. It&#39;s like the coffee that gives the cuban coffee-growers an equal share, and like the meat that has it&#39;s cows running around happy in wide open green fields.

Actually, I think that would really be good. I think Alot of people rather buy porn knowing that no-one is exploited by making it. So you don&#39;t feel sorry about _the bitches_  :smiley:

----------


## Placebo

> porn is good if used and *produced responsibley*.
> it keeps lots of insanel horny violent men from attacking inocent women.
> [/b]



Bold is mine - &#39; *produced responsibley*.&#39; And it summarises why I don&#39;t condone porn, even though I have difficulty not keeping some of my own.
The industry does NOT produce responsibly, and by-and-large the girls that end up in this industry get their lives screwed up by drugs, pimps and prostitution.
This isn&#39;t always the case of course, but enough so to worry me.

Oh, and while we&#39;re on the subject, who has heard Bloodhound Gang - New Vagina ?  ::D:

----------


## The Blue Meanie

Amen to Placebo.  Though I&#39;m not against porn from a moral perspective _a priori_, I&#39;m against it for the reasons outlined by Placebo.

I think there ARE a few exceptions.  I&#39;m not against porn which is more like artistic erotica - for instance, tasteful nudes but nothing more, but, anything more carries with it a very definite risk of exploitative treatment of the women and girls involved.

----------


## Neruo

A propper remark to this entire thread would be, in my eyes:

fapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfap.

----------


## spoon

> in my eyes:
> 
> fapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfap.[/b]



Wouldn&#39;t that sting?

----------


## Neruo

> Wouldn&#39;t that sting?
> [/b]



lolololol.

That is why I allways wear goggles.

Point is: porno is way cool &#39;aight.

----------


## Bu5hman404

The only porn I like is furreh.

----------


## 13redfan

Okay, well from the point of view of "Those in the industry have it bad" then yah, porn is the devil.

But then again, you aren&#39;t forced into it, hell the only porn I like is the porn where they&#39;re both enjoying it. Time and time again she lets him blow his load all up on her grill. She likes it up the nought, and loves it when his wife pilots her poephol with a strap on.

So I&#39;m all for it. Porn is good. I&#39;ve even made some of my own.

----------


## mooltootie

> Bold is mine - &#39; *produced responsibley*.&#39; And it summarises why I don&#39;t condone porn, even though I have difficulty not keeping some of my own.
> The industry does NOT produce responsibly, and by-and-large the girls that end up in this industry get their lives screwed up by drugs, pimps and prostitution.
> This isn&#39;t always the case of course, but enough so to worry me.
> 
> [/b]



I totally agree with this.  I think the arguments are very similar regarding prostitution, in that although a prostitute may be "consenting" to that particular act, I don&#39;t think many women (or men) would be prostitute if they had a viable alternative, or if their particular cirumstances weren&#39;t so tough.   We never hear of rich people indulging in a little voluntary prostitution, or being in porno (unless they have become rich the prono way, and of these are there relatively few).  These are things that we would not want our children to do.  

I am not saying that porn is inherently bad, or that there is something wrong in being aroused by it, I am saying is that we should keep in mind the social circumstances that have resulted it.  I think it is irresponsible to "reap the benefits" without thinking of what was involved in it&#39;s prodcution.  In a similar way (though a little different i think) you might be worried about the conditions of the factory workers in Indonesia who made your Nikes, or the conditions that animals are housed in before they are killed for consumption.  You can&#39;t be a consumer and at the same time absolve yourself of responsibilty regarding the produciton of the product.... Anyway, these are my unformed thoughts...

----------


## Alban

From Society&#39;s point of view, no doubt, hands down, I think its more bad than good.

I&#39;m saying this because based on the arguments presented here, (I&#39;m excluding those who claim it&#39;s "dirty", "evil", "the devil&#39;s pictures" etc as well as those who can do no better than "it&#39;s cool") it harms a lot more individuals than it heals.

From the point of view of an individual it&#39;s just silly and pointless. 

But unfortunately it&#39;s that very combination of raw, afronting power and absolute meaninglessness that makes it so darn hard to stop looking at, thinking about, indulging in.

It&#39;s a mind switcher-offer when life is too scary and/or boring to think about. Like drugs.

What I would really like to see is a thread about how it affects dreaming/lucid-dreams, coz I&#39;m pretty sure it does but I&#39;m not sure how.

----------


## Neruo

That the industry is a bad system might suck, but it doens&#39;t change the fact that there is nothing wrong at looking at a picture of a naked woman isn&#39;t bad at all. 

The internet is for porn  :smiley:

----------


## Vespertine

Strip clubs exist. Do I have a problem if a group of my bf&#39;s friends come down and wanna go as a group? No, it&#39;s never his idea anyways. Would I be upset if he went there every weekend alone? Yeah, that&#39;s kinda depressing and would make me mad.

Porn is bad? Eh, I find it more comical. Don&#39;t lie, you know some of that shit is like, "Uhm, no, that&#39;s just way wrong" but then again I laugh at everything and make fun of everything so it&#39;s really easy for me to stumble across one on accident and laugh. Some of that stuff is just way too out there not to laugh.

I worked with a girl who quit recently to become a stripper. She came back to visit us and I asked her how moneyw as going. That girl made &#036;124 on three songs&#33; I said, "I made &#036;70 tonight in five hours&#33;" (I&#39;m a waitress). She said, "Come work where I work&#33;"

I couldn&#39;t do it. I&#39;m a really shy person and the price to see me naked would have to be mch, much higher than what a stripper gets because I&#39;m THAT shy. I don&#39;t act it, but me being naked is torture, I hate my yearly womanly exams, lol. Hoenstly though, if I had the location and money you think I wouldn&#39;t open my own strip club? I would. It&#39;s not my body people are viewing ^^





> From Society&#39;s point of view, no doubt, hands down, I think its more bad than good.
> 
> I&#39;m saying this because based on the arguments presented here, (I&#39;m excluding those who claim it&#39;s "dirty", "evil", "the devil&#39;s pictures" etc as well as those who can do no better than "it&#39;s cool") it harms a lot more individuals than it heals.
> 
> From the point of view of an individual it&#39;s just silly and pointless. 
> 
> But unfortunately it&#39;s that very combination of raw, afronting power and absolute meaninglessness that makes it so darn hard to stop looking at, thinking about, indulging in.
> 
> It&#39;s a mind switcher-offer when life is too scary and/or boring to think about. Like drugs.
> ...



I think it only harms those that are DEPENDANT on porn and won&#39;t go find a real girlfriend or boyfriend (people forget, women can like porn too). That&#39;s when it becomes a problem because they lack some survival instinct. Human beings are social creatures and often seek companionship and if they become too reliant on something that&#39;s not real, a problem is produced.

Then you have the couple who watch it together every once in a while for fun. Is that bad? I&#39;ve never personally tried it, but if porn is so wrong, is it so bad when a married couple, or dating couple enjoy it together?

----------


## IZ

I wonder if everybody stopped watching porn, would people stop making it. 
Example: Just like how if you don&#39;t waste paper, you&#39;ll stop from killing trees.

Now I never found logic in this tree killing thing because companies tear down trees no matter what, even if paper is in demand or not, but if people stopped using paper does that mean that companies wont tear down any more trees. In my opinion, no. But Porn in the other hand is produced to sell. But if for some reason appeal for porn became bad and no one would buy it, causing a zero profit in making it. Would there be as much as there is today? Would there even be a difference in human civilization from the change?

What happens when we run out of trees. What happens when we run out of an appeal for sex. How long until it gets tired. We aren&#39;t far from the limit of our hormone driven imaginations. Soon it will be everywhere that it wouldn&#39;t even be called porn but just a tv show. For paper, there&#39;s electronic writing and reading. But for sex, whats the alternative?

Bottom line, sex isn&#39;t sacred anymore.

----------


## Alban

I think there are a number of people who are bored of it already.
Hell, I&#39;m bored of it but it doesn&#39;t mean I treat it with the disdain that I&#39;d like to.
It&#39;s been said that the most stupid things a man does in his life are usually sex-driven. (I don&#39;t believe the same goes for women.)
Hence men, in general, and a few women, will always look at pornography, even though some of us would like to rise above it. It&#39;s not within anyone&#39;s power to eradicate it.

But it is within the power of western governments to discourage and control the industry more than they are.
I doubt they will though coz its a multi-billion dollar industry and even thousands of exploited individuals are not going to be worth destroying a huge industry like that in the governments&#39; eyes.

And, yeah, I think its one of the many things coroding our civilization from the inside but like most of the things coroding our civilization its probably too ingrained to do anything about except perhaps... stop looking at porn&#33;

----------


## flight

If humans want this product porn, don&#39;t you think it is better that it&#39;s available to them like it is right now rather than going out and exercising there desires in a criminal manner?
Eg. In 1969 Denmark lifted all restrictions on pornography, and sex crimes declined. For example, between 1965 and 1982 sex crimes against children went from 30 per 100,000 to about 5 per 100,000. Similar evidence was found for rape rates. Think about that.
Also Thanks to video and the internet, the porn industry in the US is estimated to be worth &#036;10bn a year. Porn revenues are bigger than Hollywood&#39;s domestic box-office receipts.
Yes we are all humans theres good and bad in most things in life and those that disagree with porn are usually being pressurized by there religious beliefs. Simple if I don&#39;t like that type of porn I don&#39;t download it, hire it or watch it and wow it&#39;s gone, well at least to me it can feel that way.  :tongue2:

----------


## Unicorn

All i know is i&#39;d rather see these thousand of women being protected inside an industry (even by syndicats in Europe) that pays rather well, than seeing them abused in the streets. Of course, there&#39;s also abuse in the porn industry, but they get a lot of guarentees as well.

----------


## Alban

I agree that an exploited individual in an area over which a government has some influence (a legitimate porn industry) is better than an exploited individual in an area over which it has little or none (illegal prostitution or private abuse) but I dont believe that qualifies as a justification for the bloated porn industry as it stands.

Having structures in place to protect sex-workers, which, lets face it, have always been around and will always be as long as people are prepared to pay for their services, is a different thing from allowing free-reign for the mass-production and marketing of sex as if its fast-food.
Ive had the chance to live in both the eastern and western halves of the globe and I have to say that, while in the East its there if you want it, in the West its practically shoved down youre throat. 

No one can eradicate erotic imagery from society, nor should they necessarily try to, but that doesnt mean society has to be deluged with sexually-charged visuals. Theres more to existence than that.

Nor do I believe that people disapproving of porn for religious reasons is necessarily a negative thing.
If its out of sexual repression, then, sure. Repression of any kind is usually bad and often results in criminal and anti-social behaviour.

But only a relative few religions still try to repress sex itself.
Sex is natural and universal but for many people its an experience that still touches on the divine.
Why shouldnt it be kept sacred?
Or, rather, why shouldnt some people at least have the option of keeping it sacred for themselves without having to withdraw from a society obsessed with easy-access to do that?
Why shouldnt sex be somewhat elusive and difficult to find?

I think if it was, wed appreciate it more.

----------


## Xanous

Not a good thing for me. I think as a married man it can allow the wrong type of "energy" into a marriage; call it bad karma if you wish. 

It can get out of hand but I as long as a person keeps it in moderation I suppose it is up to the individual.

----------


## IZ

In moderation, true. But behind closed doors or out in the open of a good marraige. Its how you can have the possible ways of viewing, its how you can practice this safe moderation.

----------


## Nyx

I&#39;ve read most of the replies in this topic, and everyones views on the subject are very interesting.  My personal beliefs on the issue is that, porn is simply sex.  It&#39;s natural, and is a basic instinct.  Some people have made the statement that it&#39;s degrading to both men and women.  I will say that this may be the case to an extent.  People who go around looking at the opposite sex(or same sex) as just an object that they would only like to have sex with, and treat them that way, are no better than an animal.  Being able to rise above our basic instincs is what makes us human.  I&#39;m not saying that I have never watched porn or had sexual thoughts about a women, but there is a point that you need to look beyond all that and realize that it is only a fantasy, and nothing more.

----------


## Never

Completely against it. From blatant porno to sex ads on billboards and magazines I am tired of it. I cannot leave the house without seeing an ad or hearing a conversation about sex. Meh, I will not rant like I usually do because this is a topic that literally makes me so angry that I cannot converse long about it. People hold sex up higher than their own souls and it&#39;s very sad to say the least.

----------


## Placebo

On that point, I agree with you. People are sex mad.
But as long as porn isn&#39;t shoved in people&#39;s faces, that doesn&#39;t mean I&#39;m immediately against porn for the same reason.

However, as discussed before, I&#39;m against porn simply because the industry is usually unhealthy. For the stars at least.

----------


## Graeme

i personally enjoy pornography what a truly fantastic form of art if i am looking at a magazine i would call everything but porn filth.

sex is one of the least intelectual thing you can do and that is why it is good





> i personally enjoy pornography what a truly fantastic form of art if i am looking at a magazine i would call everything but porn filth.
> 
> sex is one of the least intelectual thing you can do and that is why it is good
> [/b]

----------


## *Dark*

Porn is stupid&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; and wrong at the same time&#33; It can mess up your mind and the way you think about others. Plus is just a fantasy for most people who watch it because they wish they had that type of sex or girl/guy and truly they never will.  ::roll:: 





> Completely against it. From blatant porno to sex ads on billboards and magazines I am tired of it. I cannot leave the house without seeing an ad or hearing a conversation about sex. Meh, I will not rant like I usually do because this is a topic that literally makes me so angry that I cannot converse long about it. People hold sex up higher than their own souls and it&#39;s very sad to say the least.
> [/b]



I think the same way as you, sometimes I even get a little depressed about it because I really don&#39;t want the world to be this way but I just have to learn how to live in it I guess, It&#39;s hard but I have no other choice you know.

----------


## Flinte

I personally think it is just funny that some of the people here believe people are idiots for watching and enjoying porn. Apparently if the Pope, Steven Hawking, or the President watch porn, that makes them idiots as well? Come on... Why is is so bad? If you think that it is bad because it causes people to become perverted or because it causes rape, then you must think that any type of violence on TV or in video games is bad as well. It is the same concept, just a different factor. It is not the porn that causes people to do those things, it is the people. If you truly think porn is bad, I have nothing against you, but once you start judging other people for watching it, that is when you need to back off.

Everyone here who is against porn, come on.... be a man.

----------


## sloth

It&#39;s funny that this subject makes people like Never so angry. It makes me just as angry, and I&#39;m on the opposite side.
I can always see the judgemental people in these threads. 

When you say bad things about people who watch porn, you&#39;re saying them about me.
Believe it or not, there&#39;s nothing wrong with me. I&#39;m not disgusting or gross. I&#39;d appreciate if people wouldn&#39;t say that I am.

If you don&#39;t enjoy the idea of sex, that&#39;s okay with me.
But don&#39;t call me names because I do.
I haven&#39;t called you guys names.

----------


## Never

It was never my intention to do such things. I made a general statement in this thread referring to "people". I don&#39;t see why you put yourself in that group unless you feel I am speaking about you.

In the other thread you thought I called you scum, when in fact I was not referring to people who "watch" porn. It must be my mistake though, because whenever I give my opinion of this in real life or on a forum, the same thing always happens. I piss everyone off.

Anyhow forget I said anything. I do not want bad relations over something so stupid. I need to lighten up anyway, that I admit. I take everything seriously.

----------


## sloth

Well, I didn&#39;t mean to pick on you specifically. 
Many people throw insults at those who watch porn. If I were smarter, I would avoid these threads, but I would still know that they exist; Page after page of people expressing not only dislike, but disgust for people that watch pornography. . . That&#39;s me&#33; 
Also, it was actually my full intention to POINT OUT that when &#39;people&#39; are mentioned, it&#39;s not completely impersonal. I really DON&#39;t think that I am targeted intentionally. I don&#39;t think some realize what they say, and the way it sounds. But when one speaks of a person who watches porn, he IS speaking about me. I likes me porn. LOL&#33; 
Lastly, I know you didn&#39;t really call me/us scum. I just used that as ammo. lol 

No.. I would not have bad relations with someone over this. Shoot. Burns expressed that she didn&#39;t like porn, and she rawks.  :smiley:  One is certainly entitled to their opinion, and I can certainly see why one would be insulted by porn. It&#39;s not like I&#39;m PROUD that I watch it. I don&#39;t feel guilty either though. I have no lover. I&#39;m too picky. lol 

I have no beef with you guys. Just keep in mind that &#39;people&#39; do read your opinions.

I&#39;m tired. lol

-sloth  :smiley:

----------


## Never

> Lastly, I know you didn&#39;t really call me/us scum. I just used that as ammo. lol 
> [/b]



 ::chuckle:: 

But yeah, sometimes I state myself so strongly that I get in my own way.

----------


## cd27

I&#39;ll tell ya up strait right now, pornography is wrong. It is degrading in the fact that it causes people to look at other people as objects of lust, instead of as people who have feelings and are not just tools for your imagination. Yea, i&#39;m "one of those Christians", and let me get one thing strait right here and now, I didn&#39;t grow up a Christian, i never went into a church, it was my own past experience with abuse, mental abuse, physical abuse, suicide, and much more that led me to the ONLY place that really gave a crap about me.

I&#39;ve been dealing with this problem, yes-it&#39;s a PROBLEM-, for years, and battle it constantly. why? take a look here. You don&#39;t think God&#39;s word is reliable, take a look at this, this, this, and this.

You can&#39;t look at the entire Christian nation as "those Christians" and as if they are different people from you...we are all human, we are all people, and we have the same problems you do&#33; we came from the same place, we know one anothe, so don&#39;t you dare look down on us as being completely different people as if we exist in a completely different society. We exist in one and the same, we have a different belief than you, and for those who are true Christians like myself and do proclaim God&#39;s word and morality, WE DO IT BECAUSE WE CHOOSE TO, not because God forces us, of makes us fear Him, He NEVER tells us to fear Him, in fact, the most commonly use for the word "Fear" in the Bible is meaning awe, inspiration, glory, not outright FEAR&#33;

I hate it when people downgrade the Christian religion based on a few hypocrytes&#39; testimony, and then everyone looks at the entire Christian religion without even looking at what the Bible actually says. how can you call me, "one of those Christians" and not even know what a Christian is or what the Christian faith is about? So what if some guy told you what it is, READ IT FOR YOURSELF&#33;&#33;&#33; don&#39;t just take someone&#39;s word for it&#33;

Pornography is WRONG, both degrading to our world we live in, is addictive, and is a way to manipulate other people. Money, greed, lust, adultery of the body and heart, if porn were not here, if all aspects of porn did not exist, this world would be a VERY much better place, and you all know it.

CD

----------


## Pluto

I don&#39;t have any serious problem with porn, as long as it is decent and not extreme. That cuts out about 95% of the porn...   ::?:  anyways.


As for this being shoved down my throat...





> <snip>
> Money, greed, lust, adultery of the body and heart, if porn were not here, if all aspects of porn did not exist, this world would be a VERY much better place, and you all know it.
> 
> CD
> [/b]




lets just say if it wasn&#39;t for "GOD" and extreme religion, and the associated warfare and death, this world would probably be a much better place&#33;

----------


## Howie

> I am an animal.  I am human.  I try to give my primal nature more purpose with delusions of fate and life with culture, but, quintessentially, we are all still dependant on sex in order to survive.
> It&#39;s natural, and I think it is just plain stubborn to think low of anyone who likes sex.  
> Yes, I have pornography, and there&#39;s nothing wrong with that.. sheesh.[/b]



This quote by O&#39;nus has stuck in my head.
There is a lot to what he has said.
He hit it right on... how I feel. "I try to give my primal nature more purpose with delusions of fate and life with culture. As If were better than sex. 
However I realize what he says is true. We all, for the most part, have sexual urges and needs. There is nothing shameful about this.
In somewhat contradictory ideals, on one hand you have our sentience to provide us with fulfillment of culture, yet at the same time I think that it is our own developed mind that makes sex warped in some manners and in some instances.
Sex is natural. Most porn I don&#39;t feel to be natural. It is  derived from the act of sex but taken to further extremes with fetishes and the like. Violence, dominance, perversion.

----------


## cd27

What are you talking about shoving things down your throat? Did i force you to do anything? No, i did not. Did i tell you what you MUST believe, absolutely NOT. That&#39;s another thing i can&#39;t stand, is when i say ANYTHING about God, people immediately become offensive and say, "stop shoving this down my throat&#33;". If that&#39;s the case, then everything in this site is shoved down my throat, right? You know, since i have to actually open my eyes and choose to read it and all, and you know, also the fact that it was an oppinion and i don&#39;t have a gun pointed to your head, yea, i&#39;m totally shoving this down your throat.

You show me ONE TRUE CHRISTIAN that has hurt this world morally or physically or philosophically, and maybe i&#39;ll consider your comment as true, but if you cannot, if you can&#39;t find me one single person who is honestly living like the Bible says he/she should live, someone who truly trusts and believes in God, and you can show how they have harmed this world in any way, then okay, you won the fight, if you can&#39;t, then you have lost.

I can&#39;t find any of them. alot of people try to use the catholics back in the day when they used religion to gain power, or how about the crusades? How about the old testament wars? in the old testament God Himself told the jews to kill every man, woman, and child of some of the cities they conquered. lot of people use this to say that God is a saved and evil being, when He is not. In that time, Jesus had not redemed (spl?) the Gentiles, and everyone who was NOT a Jew was considered less or equal to dogs, they were only in the way. after Jesus redeemed them, all mankind was equal. What about the Catholics and their power control back then? The Bible doesn&#39;t say that is right, in fact, no one in that time BUT the catholics knew the Bible and anything went when they said it, including the false teaching of excommunication. The Crusades were not Christian, they only held the title of a Christian power, when they were absolute HYPOCRYTES. They were not Christians, and if they God to Heaven, it certainly wouldn&#39;t be for their deeds and good actions. we are saved only through the grace of God and Jesus Christ&#39;s testimony and sacrifice.

If this is being shoved down your throat, then maybe i should go and get the courts to take down all religious symbols in governmnet places and schools except those that are not Christian, perhaps i should take a radical muslim stance and cut your head off, or maybe i should go to africa and kill people and take their land just because they&#39;re a different color from my muslim race. You show me one Christian who follows God&#39;s word, who loves God with all his heart, mind, and strength, and loves his neighbor as himself. i highly doubt you&#39;re going to find anyone, not a single person, but i sure can find some buddists who follow their god&#39;s word and are ruining this world with horrible acts, or some muslims who are chopping off people&#39;s heads and being justified by a ji-had (spl?), or some jews who crucified the Christ and are currently waging a battle over land with people when they&#39;ve already made an agreement with them. i can go on and on. you won&#39;t find a dedicated genuine Christian that&#39;s doing ANY of this stuff, why? Because a true Christian is not a hypocryte, because God&#39;s word IS true, and because we can prove it by historical evidence, prophecy, geological evidence, and thousands of corroberating witnesses.

Alot of people state that the Bible is written over too much, or that it is too old and does not apply anymore. Well, the buddhist, muslim, and other religions were ALL written HUNDREDS of years after the events, when the Bible was written within only a few decades while many of the witnesses were still alive to validate it. The New Testament holds up the Old Testament through prophecy and quotations and evidence. I can almost guarontee (spl?) you that if you watch a history channel show, they will use the Bible as a way of dating events...why? Because the old Testament IS A HISTORIC DOCUMENT THAT CAN BE TRUSTED AND HAS BEEN PROVEN CORRECT. There&#39;s overwhelming evidence supporting the Bible.

That, however, is not the point, the point is that pornography is wrong. why? Because the Bible said so? No, because God said so, He created this universe, this world, and each and every one of you. Did God really say something about it? Absolutely. Moses didn&#39;t write the Ten Commandments, GOD DID. But how does pornography deal with adultery? Jesus said that if we lust after a woman we have committed adultery already with her in our heart (this goes for man and woman). How can we trust Jesus&#39; word AND God&#39;s? Because Jesus is God. Take a look at the shroud of Turin which proves his ressurection, how about the thousands of CORROBERATING *EYE WITNESSESS*, the new testament, prophecy in the old testament.

Pornography is down right WRONG, and there is nothing more to say about it, it&#39;s wrong. God says it, the destructive nature of it says it, rape says it, peeping-toms show it, murder shows it, and children say it. It&#39;s not right.

CD

----------


## Unicorn

> You show me ONE TRUE CHRISTIAN that has hurt this world morally or physically or philosophically, and maybe i&#39;ll consider your comment as true, but if you cannot, if you can&#39;t find me one single person who is honestly living like the Bible says he/she should live, someone who truly trusts and believes in God, and you can show how they have harmed this world in any way, then okay, you won the fight, if you can&#39;t, then you have lost.[/b]



Well, i got plenty of examples. But the thing is, each time i&#39;d bring up a name, you&#39;d probably say he isn&#39;t a _true_ christian.

It&#39;s becoming a total cliché to bring up president Bush, but come on&#33; Don&#39;t you think he did enough harm in in this world (including the US)? Only someone totally naive and blinded by his ideology would disagree...

----------


## Howie

"It&#39;s becoming a total cliché " Yes. It is.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("cd27")</div>



> You show me ONE TRUE CHRISTIAN that has hurt this world morally or physically or philosophically, and maybe i&#39;ll consider your comment as true, but if you cannot, if you can&#39;t find me one single person who is honestly living like the Bible says he/she should live, someone who truly trusts and believes in God, and you can show how they have harmed this world in any way, then okay, you won the fight, if you can&#39;t, then you have lost.[/b]



As you can see from my post above yours that I agree that pornography is wrong....morally.

But this attempt to compare us "sinners" to living a life like Jesus is absurd.
So let&#39;s instead take a good hearted christian I know. He raised his family to the best of his indoctrinated beliefs. Guidance from the Bible. A very good man.
His children are in the dark. They can&#39;t function in the world. They don&#39;t see the truth. They see a fairy tale to which you call a "IS A HISTORIC DOCUMENT THAT CAN BE TRUSTED AND HAS BEEN PROVEN CORRECT."
Does god have a copy right for his fables? 
Bible ©

----------


## Pluto

> What are you talking about shoving things down your throat? Did i force you to do anything? No, i did not. Did i tell you what you MUST believe, absolutely NOT. That&#39;s another thing i can&#39;t stand, is when i say ANYTHING about God, people immediately become offensive and say, "stop shoving this down my throat&#33;". If that&#39;s the case, then everything in this site is shoved down my throat, right? You know, since i have to actually open my eyes and choose to read it and all, and you know, also the fact that it was an oppinion and i don&#39;t have a gun pointed to your head, yea, i&#39;m totally shoving this down your throat.
> <snipped>
> <snipped>
> <snipped>
> <snipped>
> [/b]



geez, what a load of off-topic drivel &#33;    ::shock::  


coming back on topic...
I believe that suppression or repression of man/womans *natural sexual instinct
* will eventually lead to a set of often hidden psychological problems. In the case of a single person, if porn (of a "decent" standard) plays a healthy role in relieving this sexual (and psychological)  tension then I am all for it. 

If however porn leads to increased sexual deviancy then I am against it and would advise the viewer to "tone down" to a healthier form of sexual release - less "hardcore" porn and preferably, loving sex.

----------


## Entonis

I admit, back at 14, I was pretty addicted to pornography. It just wasn&#39;t a good day unless I looked up some on my computer. I imagine this is just a stage that everyone goes through, and pornography is the easiest way to satisfy a growing human.

I personally hate pornography, I find it degrading, meaningless, and I wouldn&#39;t care if it vanished off the face of the Earth. But I wouldn&#39;t really consider it &#39;horrible&#39; to look at certain images, as it proves your a natural growing person, and it&#39;s only natural to have the lust for sex. No one is perfect, and we need to get passed these things.

There IS a problem when you look at the over-the-top kind, such as Rape pornography. Those do leave a bad imprint. The thing that generally sucks about porn is, you remember for a long time.

----------


## metcalfracing

I hate say this, I&#39;m gonna get flamed for sure. Even I am pro porn. Double standard with the rest of my beliefs, I know. The thing is, porn is really the only conduit that growing men and women have to learn about sex. this stems from cuts to sexual education in schools and a growing lack of parental guidance on the subject. I don&#39;t watch it personally, but I could understand why people do.

----------


## Geves

I&#39;m for it, I use it, I love it.

I&#39;m not fond of donkey sex though.

How can it be considered bad? sure there&#39;s lots of weird stuff out there. But just because you don&#39;t approve of it, doesn&#39;t mean it&#39;s wrong. Donkies and clowns need love too.

EDIT: Oh and i&#39;m not reading 26 pages to stay with the conversation. Long live pRon.  :yumdumdoodledum: 

Bible thumpers and feminists are the only people agianst it... but seriously who cares what either group has to say about anything.

----------


## cd27

> _Originally posted by Pluto+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pluto)</div>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 			
> 				Well, i got plenty of examples. But the thing is, each time i&#39;d bring up a name, you&#39;d probably say he isn&#39;t a true christian.
> 
> It&#39;s becoming a total cliché to bring up president Bush, but come on&#33; Don&#39;t you think he did enough harm in in this world (including the US)? Only someone totally naive and blinded by his ideology would disagree...[/b]
> ...



If his children are not knowing of the world and are grown in the dark and only know just the Bible and not what they&#39;ll have to deal with in the world, then yes, this man has not lived according to the word. everyone makes mistakes, but when it is habitual and constant, it becomes more than a mistake. God says that if we spare the rod, we spoil the child, and He also says that if we do not teach them according to God&#39;s word, then we have faild, and that we are to teach our children as a loving father is supposed to. This includes teaching his children about the world and how to defend against it. Teaching scripture is one thing, teaching how to use it in EVERYDAY LIFE is something completely different.

As for the copywrite, that&#39;s so that no one can misquote the Bible and then sue them saying that it was wrongly translated, not for money. what are you talking about &#39;us sinners&#39; as if i&#39;ve taken myself and the rest of the Christian community out of the picture? we are ALL sinners, and &#39;not one is perfect, no, not one&#39;. To sin is to disobey, and if you can follow God&#39;s word perfectly then you would be just like Jesus, but you can&#39;t, and you won&#39;t, so you can&#39;t be just like Jesus. Why not compare it to Jesus&#39; life? We aren&#39;t comparing it to Jesus. We are comparing it to GOD&#39;S COMMANDMENTS and then using JESUS&#39; TESTIMONY AND *EXAMPLE* to show how a perfect life SHOULD be lived. We will always stray from that line, but when we blatantly say that it is wrong, even in the fact of pure fact and evidence, we are being both ignorant and arrogant, calling God a liar when He is not.

1st John says that if any man claims he does not sin, he is a liar, and if any man says that God does not live, that Jesus was not the Son of God, and that He did not die for our sins, then HE IS A LIAR. No man/woman/child has an excuse, it&#39;s all right here, right here in the Bible, and yes, it is fact, it has been proven, it has been tested and tried, it has THOUSANDS OF TIMES [B]MORE[&#092;b] evidence and proof than all of the religions in the world, yet it is the only one being attacked and persecuted. We don&#39;t foce things down peope&#39;s throats, we don&#39;t force anything, and if anyone does, then they need to read Proverbs 15:1 and several other verses in the Bible pertaining to this.

To say that Porn is okay, that it doesn&#39;t do anything wrong, it&#39;s a lie, it&#39;s detestible, and it&#39;s addictive manipulation. this is know from my OWN past experience.

CD27/Eric Wright

----------


## Howie

> As for the copywrite, that&#39;s so that no one can misquote the Bible and then sue them saying that it was wrongly translated, not for money. what are you talking about &#39;us sinners&#39; as if i&#39;ve taken myself and the rest of the Christian community out of the picture? we are ALL sinners, and &#39;not one is perfect, no, not one&#39;. To sin is to disobey, and if you can follow God&#39;s word perfectly then you would be just like Jesus, but you can&#39;t, and you won&#39;t, so you can&#39;t be just like Jesus. Why not compare it to Jesus&#39; life? We aren&#39;t comparing it to Jesus. We are comparing it to GOD&#39;S COMMANDMENTS and then using JESUS&#39; TESTIMONY AND *EXAMPLE* to show how a perfect life SHOULD be lived. We will always stray from that line, but when we blatantly say that it is wrong, even in the fact of pure fact and evidence, we are being both ignorant and arrogant, calling God a liar when He is not.[/b]



Maybe I misunderstand your question:
"You show me ONE TRUE CHRISTIAN that has hurt this world morally or physically or philosophically, and maybe i&#39;ll consider your comment as true, but if you cannot, if you can&#39;t find me one single person who is honestly living like the Bible says he/she should live, someone who truly trusts and believes in God, and you can show how they have harmed this world in any way, then okay, you won the fight, if you can&#39;t, then you have lost."
Would you not be seeking Jesus to ask this of anybody?

----------


## Neruo

Wow, what a sick, sick mind. I am talking about CD27 of course. 

What about the Spanish inquisition, that are Christians. Or the wars between Christians and Muslims, that are Christians. However, the millions of Christians that do horrible things, oooh &#39;But THAT aren&#39;t Christians". Really weak to turn such a blind eye to the horrors of your sick religion.

However, what about people that stone homosexuals because the bible tell them to, that is perfectly fine according to you?

Also, Porn is fine. Fapfapfap.

----------


## metcalfracing

You totally miss the point, Neruo. We can&#39;t take responsiblity for other people, that we don&#39;t know. We only have to be responsible for ourselves. Just like everyone else. 

... besides that, I have never, in my life, seen a person stone a gay guy... but that&#39;s just me.

----------


## bro

Why the f*ck not?&#33; We all need our orgasms and so what if you watch porn, it doesn&#39;t mean you condone the activities involved. Whether you choose to watch porn or not is your call, but I don&#39;t beleive there are "victims" of porn.

----------


## Neruo

> You totally miss the point, Neruo. We can&#39;t take responsiblity for other people, that we don&#39;t know. We only have to be responsible for ourselves. Just like everyone else. 
> 
> ... besides that, I have never, in my life, seen a person stone a gay guy... but that&#39;s just me.
> [/b]



Watch the news a bit more perhaps. Or read some history books.

----------


## metcalfracing

> Watch the news a bit more perhaps. Or read some history books.
> [/b]



Would you listen to what I&#39;m trying to say? Its not MY fault that people are being idiots. I can&#39;t help it, one way or the other. All that I can do is give sympathy.

----------


## Howie

The Topic --&#62;  Pornography: Who here has been a victim of it. = ?
And the Poll  - For it against it are a bit misleading IMO.

----------


## Placebo

> I hate say this, I&#39;m gonna get flamed for sure. Even I am pro porn. Double standard with the rest of my beliefs, I know. The thing is, porn is really the only conduit that growing men and women have to learn about sex. this stems from cuts to sexual education in schools and a growing lack of parental guidance on the subject. I don&#39;t watch it personally, but I could understand why people do.
> [/b]



Actually, you have a point here.. I got started as a kid BECAUSE I wanted to know more about what woman .. have..
The rest just expanded from there.

And this isn&#39;t self-denial, for those getting ready for that bullet - because my first &#39;porn&#39; was an encyclopedia. That&#39;s &#39;nuff said, IMO.

----------


## mkauf84

You know a 100 years ago you could marry a 12 year old.

I was 16 and learned how to masterbate from a book. That I found with my older brother&#39;s stuff.

Porn doesn&#39;t make sexual preditors that connection is invalid since the majority of the population watches or has seen porn.

Sex is addictive.

Porn has always been.

----------


## Pluto

> Wow, what a sick, sick mind. I am talking about CD27 of course. 
> 
> What about the Spanish inquisition, that are Christians. Or the wars between Christians and Muslims, that are Christians. However, the millions of Christians that do horrible things, oooh &#39;But THAT aren&#39;t Christians". Really weak to turn such a blind eye to the horrors of your sick religion.
> 
> However, what about people that stone homosexuals because the bible tell them to, that is perfectly fine according to you?
> 
> Also, Porn is fine. Fapfapfap.[/b]



i tend to agree with your sentiments.
its absolutely hypocritical... and indeed this fanatical attitude is a sign of weakness if you ask me.

----------


## guitargod6t9

i think most porn is funny.......

i mean the words they use and the phrases are just rediculous.......

like its supposed ot get someone off or something...

lol.

----------


## pyroguy305

> Pornography is in the top ten of lowest forms of entertainment. Besides the fact that it is utterly demeaning and stupid, it just isn&#39;t ethical. It&#39;s also illegal. I&#39;m not a religious person and morality has nothing to do with it, in my opinion. It&#39;s just a parade  of low character.[/b]



Pornography is not illegal.  It may be illegal for underaged people to view it or to have minors in pornography but in itself it is not illegal.

----------


## Howie

> Pornography is not illegal.  It may be illegal for underaged people to view it or to have minors in pornography but in itself it is not illegal.[/b]



True. But because it is legal does not mean that Gwen does not have a point.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Gwendolyn")</div>



> Pornography is in the top ten of lowest forms of entertainment. Besides the fact that it is utterly demeaning and stupid, it just isn&#39;t ethical. It&#39;s also illegal. I&#39;m not a religious person and morality has nothing to do with it, in my opinion. It&#39;s just a parade of low character.[/b]



Very well said I think.

----------


## spoon

What could possibly be demeaning or unethical about two adults consenting to be filmed perfoming sexual acts they consented to?

----------


## Neruo

> Pornography is in the top ten of lowest forms of entertainment. Besides the fact that it is utterly demeaning and stupid, it just isn&#39;t ethical. It&#39;s also illegal. I&#39;m not a religious person and morality has nothing to do with it, in my opinion. It&#39;s just a parade of low character.[/b]



This really is one of the weakest arguments I ever heard. It is low? Why? What is demeaning about porn in general? Sure, some, maybe even a lot of porn is demeaning to women. That doesn&#39;t make ALL porn demeaning. And what is stupid about sex? Also, what is unethical at looking at sex? How on earth is it illegal? I didn&#39;t know you lived in Iran. Even if it would be, laws aren&#39;t a golden set of rules that are always correct. And then you say it is of low character. Why? You gave NO arguments _What So Ever._

I don&#39;t see why (most) women have such a hard time understanding that (most if not all) men just like to watch  nude women. It is in our genes, in our instinct to love to see nude women, on tv, paper or for real, it doesn&#39;t matter. To claim such an instinct is unethical makes no sense. (assuming one is watching proper porn, not rape-porn or something like that.)

----------


## Howie

Some have higher moral standards for themselves
Sexual acts are suppose to between you and your partner IMO. As sensual experience. Our enhanced emotions can make this more than procreation. It can also make it as a tool for perversion.

A good parallel - This would make a good Far Side comic. A bunch of cows standing around looking at a porn movies 
We are better than animals in this respect.

----------


## spoon

> Some have higher moral standards for themselves[/b]



Some have _different_ moral standards.  What makes yours higher than mine?





> Sexual acts are suppose to between you and your partner IMO. As sensual experience. Our enhanced emotions can make this more than procreation. It can also make it as a tool for perversion.[/b]



It&#39;s fine that you think like that, but it doesn&#39;t make porn any more unethical.  It would be unethical for you to be in porn, due to your beliefs, but how does this make porn, as a whole, unethical?

----------


## Man of Shred

I deleted my porn collection... When you get laid every weekend, porn tends to lose it&#39;s apeal. In my experience anyway.

----------


## Neruo

> Some have higher moral standards for themselves[/b]



I agree with spoon where: Who says what is &#39;high&#39; and what is &#39;low&#39;? Really a case of bigotry if you think You can determine what is high and low.





> Sexual acts are suppose to between you and your partner IMO. As sensual experience. Our enhanced emotions can make this more than procreation. It can also make it as a tool for perversion.[/b]



What is more perverse about &#39;perverse&#39; sex then about normal sex? Also, our nature already made it more then recreation, or actually is is the means that make us recreate: It Is Fun.





> A good parallel - This would make a good Far Side comic. A bunch of cows standing around looking at a porn movies 
> We are better than animals in this respect.[/color][/b]



I don&#39;t get it, how is it a good parallel? Monkeys jack off all day long. Masturbation increases with intelligence in the animal kingdom. I can assure you that the animals that are smart enough to understand pictures would love pictures of other animals of the other sex.

-

Try giving a REAL objection to porn/erotica.

----------


## Manifold_Time

> i think most porn is funny.......
> 
> i mean the words they use and the phrases are just rediculous.......
> 
> like its supposed ot get someone off or something...
> 
> lol.[/b]



I lol&#39;d.

----------


## Howie

> Some have _different_ moral standards.  What makes yours higher than mine?[/b]




My perspective of myself. One that I am entitled to.





> It&#39;s fine that you think like that, but it doesn&#39;t make porn any more unethical.  It would be unethical for you to be in porn, due to your beliefs, but how does this make porn, as a whole, unethical?[/b]



That is to say robbing people as a whole is not unethical, but if I rob somebody then it is unethical. 
So if I find pornography unethical as I do robbing somebody, well there ya have it.





> I agree with spoon where: Who says what is &#39;high&#39; and what is &#39;low&#39;? Really a case of bigotry if you think You can determine what is high and low.[/b]



So one cannot set a standard of living they feel suitable? That is what you are pretty much saying. I don&#39;t have a choice if I find something unethical to denounce it and not participate because then I would be a bigot.
So be it.

----------


## spoon

> Some have different moral standards. What makes yours higher than mine?[/b]
> 			
> 		
> 
> 
> 
> My perspective of myself. One that I am entitled to.[/b]



Of course everyone is entitled to their own perspective.  Yet you can&#39;t just call yours higher than mine without reason.  So, in your moral code, what makes the stance than porn is good &#39;lower&#39; than the stance is porn is bad?





> That is to say robbing people as a whole is not unethical, but if I rob somebody then it is unethical. 
> So if I find pornography unethical as I do robbing somebody, well there ya have it.[/b]



See, I would say that, in my moral code, robbing is &#39;lower&#39; than not-robbing (but, of course, there are exceptions to every rule.).  Because I have based my moral code, in a large part, on the effect actions have on others.  So for me robbing has nothing at all to do with making porn, because someone making porn is not harming anyone by doing so.

So what, in your moral code, makes you say that porn is as unethical as robbing someone?  From my perspective, this seems like a very odd statement; I can&#39;t find a single thing that connects them.

----------


## Neruo

> My perspective of myself. One that I am entitled to.[/b]



I think talking down to people without any logical objective reason is silly. You just dodged the question. Watching erotica/porn is completely normal, natural. You can disagree with it, but to call it &#39;weak&#39; or something is ridiculous bigotry, just like all the people that want to force all their bullshit on people, like forbidding abortions, forbidding gay marriage, forbidding drugs for no good reason. You are doing the exact same. You have the right to dislike porn, to dislike drugs, to dislike abortion. But to say people have &#39;weak&#39; personalities is extremely silyl and something I did not expect of you, it is what a fundamentalist Muslim/Christian or Nazis would do, in a way.





> That is to say robbing people as a whole is not unethical, but if I rob somebody then it is unethical. 
> So if I find pornography unethical as I do robbing somebody, well there ya have it.[/b]



Lame example howitzer. Who does one rob or harm if one watches pornography? At the very least one could say that one &#39;robs&#39; oneself of dignity or whatever you want to call it. So? Can&#39;t those people have the choice? Victimless crime. No one ever gets &#39;hurt&#39; that did not know what he/she was doing.

-

Anyhow, you still haven&#39;t given any argumentation Why porn is illogical. What is different for you saying porn is unethical then for Muslims to say men seeing a womens ankle in public is unethical, or for people to say Marijuana is unethical? They all have no logic ground to stand on.  I never expected you to be like this. You may dislike porn all you want, but at least give an explanation for it, and don&#39;t talk down on people that do like porn, what happens to be the majority of people including intellectual people, with no reasonable &#39;explanation&#39; beside &#39;oh, I have the right to say that Weh-weh-weh-weh".

Like I said, please *Explain* why porn is unethical. Personally I like to see people only believe in things with a reason, with having thought about it. Otherwise they are nothing but followers, hollow vessels of other people&#39;s bullshit. You seem to fail.

----------


## The Cusp

THe biggest thread in the philosophy section is about porn.

That&#39;s deep, man...

----------


## Neruo

> Nicely put&#33;  :bravo:[/b]



Thank ye a great deal. ^__^





> THe biggest thread in the philosophy section is about porn.
> 
> That&#39;s deep, man...[/b]



Yeah, actually, the topic should be in Extended Discussion, or _lounge_ even, there is nothing philosophical about it.

----------


## Howie

I find it amusing that you say I am talking down to people because of a perspective.  Is it Perhaps you that views  it that way? Possibly because you know what I say has reason behind it?





> I think talking down to people without any logical objective reason is silly. You just dodged the question. Watching erotica/porn is completely normal, natural. You can disagree with it, but to call it &#39;weak&#39; or something is ridiculous bigotry, just like all the people that want to force all their bullshit on people, like forbidding abortions, forbidding gay marriage, forbidding drugs for no good reason. You are doing the exact same.[/b]



Listen to what you are saying. 
For me to view it as immoral and having an aspect of weak has nothing to do with pushing any beliefs. Don&#39;t attach your bullshit to the discussion to make me look bad. 

It is you that fails to recognize the blatant fact that having morals comes with attributes such as conducting yourself in a  way that you see fit. To have some virtuous and integrity in yourself. Feeling honorable. Acting morally.

You don&#39;t see viewing Porn in that manner. That is fine. As you agreed, it is your choice and my choice. I may set my
standards for myself, how I see fit. 




> Like I said, please *Explain* why porn is unethical. Personally I like to see people only believe in things with a reason, with having thought about it. Otherwise they are nothing but followers, hollow vessels of other people&#39;s bullshit. You seem to fail.[/b]



For me to have to explain this for what you would call an "explanation" I am sorry but I must go down the road that chooses to label. I feel that you must be a dolt. Then you go further to write such a hypocritical statement below --&#62;
"Otherwise they are nothing but followers, hollow vessels of other people&#39;s bullshit. You seem to fail."

Who is the hollow vessel that fails to recognize the nature of psychology. Have you asked yourself any of these questions or do you just get defensive because you like to watch porn? Who is the follower?
Our level of sentience when examined, can effect our  daily conscience decisions. Which ultimately results in effecting our conscious perspective.
*How has it come to be that capitalizing on and watching our own species engaging in sex something that you would call, "completely normal, natural."* 
The act of sex is completely normal, natural. 

It is ignorance of your own human instincts and psychological behaviors that you have failed to recognize. 
It is right in front of your face.

----------


## Neruo

> I find it amusing that you say I am talking down to people because of a perspective.  Is it Perhaps you that views  it that way? Possibly because you know what I say has reason behind it?[/b]



Like I said, I would like to see any reason at all before making claims as:





> Some have higher moral standards for themselves[/b]



Basically saying not watching porn is &#39;higher&#39; then watching porn.

-

Or am I totally wrong. If I am, please use your great knowledge of objectiveness to tell me why porn is unethical and for people with &#39;low&#39; moral standards. 









> Listen to what you are saying. 
> For me to view it as immoral and having an aspect of weak has nothing to do with pushing any beliefs. Don&#39;t attach your bullshit to the discussion to make me look bad. 
> 
> It is you that fails to recognize the blatant fact that having morals comes with attributes such as conducting yourself in a  way that you see fit. To have some virtuous and integrity in yourself. Feeling honorable. Acting morally.
> 
> You don&#39;t see viewing Porn in that manner. That is fine. As you agreed, it is your choice and my choice. I may set my
> standards for myself, how I see fit.[/b]



Yea, still no rational explination, maybe in the next paragraph? Meanwhile, wording at all nicely really doesn&#39;t allow you to say (basically) &#39;people that watch porn have low moral standards&#39; without being an asshole. I am sorry, that is my opinion. 





> For me to have to explain this for what you would call an "explanation" I am sorry but I must go down the road that chooses to label. I feel that you must be a dolt. Then you go further to write such a hypocritical statement below --&#62;
> "Otherwise they are nothing but followers, hollow vessels of other people&#39;s bullshit. You seem to fail."[/b]



Yes, it seems you are just saying porn is &#39;unethical&#39; and a case of &#39;low morals&#39;, without any argumentation. STILL. What does that make you? I really wouldn&#39;t know. Somewhat religious, blind faith in &#39;porn is unethical&#39;?





> Who is the hollow vessel that fails to recognize the nature of psychology.[/b]



You? It appears you even surpass psychology, and can draw almost metaphysical, above-human conclusions like &#39;porn is of low moral standards&#39;. _Psychologically_, there is nothing at all _illogical_ or unnatural about watching porno. You can not disagree with that, our you would have to say that psychologically people do not naturally like to watch at photos of nude men/woman (having sex). Everyone likes to watch porn, by nature. There isn&#39;t a human being, that without some sort of self-restriction, thus a &#39;black&#39;, &#39;pure&#39; human being that does not has a positive reaction to watching erotica. 

Have you asked yourself any of these questions or do you just get defensive because you like to watch porn? Who is the follower?
Our level of sentience when examined, can effect our  daily conscience decisions. Which ultimately results in effecting our conscious perspective.





> *How has it come to be that capitalizing on and watching our own species engaging in sex something that you would call, "completely normal, natural."* [/b]



It feels good? Like some philosopher said "Good is, what feels good". That doesn&#39;t work in all cases, but still: Through evolution we are given a brain that likes to see our own species engaging in sex. It it was unnatural, we wouldn&#39;t like it. If sex was unnatural, we wouldn&#39;t like it. If heterosexuality was natural, we wouldn&#39;t do it, we wouldn&#39;t like it.





> The act of sex is completely normal, natural.[/b]



Why is the act natural, and looking at porno not? If you say because porno serves no actual goal (evolutionary), and sex does, are you also saying that eating cupcakes is unethical and of low standards? We enjoy eating cupcakes also because evolution made us like food. However in the 21th century, we really have no evolutionary use at all for cupcakes, it might even harm our ability to survive.





> It is ignorance of your own human instincts and psychological behaviors that you have failed to recognize. 
> It is right in front of your face.[/b]



"Ignorance"? Seriously, if you might actually use some argumentation behind your statements, *what you have still not done,* I might respect you as a partner in discussion a bit more. 

-

It seemed you didn&#39;t understand the questions, once again: 

How is porn unethical?
How is porn of low moral value? 
How is porn even again human nature? Nature in the sense of the psychological effect evolution had on us(, I don&#39;t see you using your better male eye-sight for hunting too.)

Really, I would like to see any for of an answer besides &#39;you are to ignorant&#39;, it reminds me of the R/S forum somewhat.

----------


## Howie

This is to no surprise that you do not understand my explanation, for if you had understood the physiological implications, you may have viewed that as my reasoning. Not an argument as you propose it to be. It is merely a point at which someone, an individual chooses what is or isn&#39;t.  As a general statement.
However, I will go further into detail.

I could not have said it better myself.   ::thumbup::  




> It feels good? Like some philosopher said "Good is, what feels good". That doesn&#39;t work in all cases, but still: Through evolution we are given a brain that likes to see our own species engaging in sex. It it was unnatural, we 
> wouldn&#39;t like it. If sex was unnatural, we wouldn&#39;t like it. If heterosexuality was natural, we wouldn&#39;t do it, we wouldn&#39;t like it.[/b]



"That doesn&#39;t work in all cases, but still:" ----&#62; This is laughable. (nothing like giving your self a way out) A simpleton&#39;s version of our discussion. ME like/ ME do___ uuug&#33;
FYI. All animals climax, giving them cause to want to procreate  - Hence _liking_ it. 
Again.. we have a much more complex process thought pattern and intellect, with that, not all good things come.I like violence. I would like to punch many people in the coarse of a day.I like watching oral sex videosI like certain drugs and drinkingI could go on. But any one of those three could be chosen by any given individual to have  no implicit reason to call it wrong or immoral. That stated, I can or cannot decide to participate in any of the following.






> "Ignorance"? Seriously, if you might actually use some argumentation behind your statements, what you have still not done, I might respect you as a partner in discussion a bit more.[/b]



I am not looking for your respect.
You have the majority no doubt on your side. The irony is because you have let society digress into a position that has deemed pornography as normal. So Again I ask, who is the follower? You are the one conditioned to believe it is normal IMO.

Please see this post http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/inde...howtopic=44549
Actually I see you have. 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Neruo")</div>



> Oh yeah, just about everything we do is a result of an extremely warped instinct or traits. Why do people collect stamps or something? Because we like to hog stuff like food or something, in nature. And with evolved, did you mean evolved since mankind has lived in society? I don&#39;t think people from now differ that much from people before society.[/b]



Almost as if you understand my point.   ::hrm::

----------


## kaliRu

> Porn creates jobs, therefor porn is good for America  
> More seriously, I&#39;m pro naked people, pro physical intimacy, and anti-porn.  Some of it seems innocent enough--some college girl clicking her own mouse on a webcam doesn&#39;t hurt anybody, I guess.  But most of it is pretty sadistic, and has very little to do with healthy sex.  I mean, the facial?  This is the standard finale in any contemporary porn movie, and it is all about humiliating the woman.  I&#39;m all for opening up in loving intimacy or simple mutual gratification, but internet porn is all about being closed, being calloused, being hard.  It&#39;s one big, sick, revenge fantasy aimed at all the ex-girlfriends of the world.  It would be great if people were making more movies integrating positive sexuality with other aspects of human life, but to zero in on just sex, then break that down into all these ritualized fetish acts?  It cheapens our culture.  
> I won&#39;t even go into what it does to people caught up in the industry.[/b]



That&#39;s the realest shit I&#39;ve ever heard. Personally, I collect porn cause I practice tantric sex, but you&#39;re absolutely right about the fetish thing. But see--that&#39;s what happens when you force a nation to suffer perpetual blueballs.

----------


## spoon

> I am not looking for your respect.
> You have the majority no doubt on your side. The irony is because you have let society digress into a position that has deemed pornography as normal. So Again I ask, who is the follower? You are the one conditioned to believe it is normal IMO.[/b]



How is it not normal?  You can call it unethical all you want, but I still don&#39;t see the connection to violence or robbery.  Making porn does not hurt anyone, and neither does watching it.  Do you have a basis for deciding porn is unethical, and that your moral stance is &#39;higher&#39; than mine?  Or are you just arbitrarily assigning a value to it with no justification?

----------


## Never

> How is it not normal? You can call it unethical all you want, but I still don&#39;t see the connection to violence or robbery.[/b]



This is the problem, and why no one will understand people like Howietzer&#39;s viewpoints.

We (or at least I) believe I see a connection with porn (and many other self-indulgent habits let out of control) and an almost unlivable decadent society.

The problem with these arguments is that whenever we state this viewpoint, immediate offense is taken. One must understand that this is a collective problem, and no fingers are being pointed at any one person; just like how industry tramples everything that gets in it&#39;s way. No one person is to blame. Again though, unless one can see a connection between one thing and the other, argument is fruitless. Some people actually think this world is currently at it&#39;s best, which further complicates the argument.

Finally, hanging on words is a waste of time. Remember that "higher" is just a word after all, and I guess that you probably know what was actually meant by it. We make choices in life, whether our choice is "higher" or "preferred" it merely means that it was to us the best choice at the time.

----------


## Neruo

> This is to no surprise that you do not understand my explanation, for if you had understood the physiological implications, you may have viewed that as my reasoning. Not an argument as you propose it to be. It is merely a point at which someone, an individual chooses what is or isn&#39;t.  As a general statement.
> However, I will go further into detail.[/b]



I can&#39;t remember you normally talked like this. 






> "That doesn&#39;t work in all cases, but still:" ----&#62; [color=#2F4F4F]This is laughable. (nothing like giving your self a way out) A simpleton&#39;s version of our discussion. ME like/ ME do___ uuug&#33;[/b]



Could you try to be an asshole a bit more, you don&#39;t really get your point across. Also, I will explain why it does not (ethically) work in all cases. 





> FYI. All animals climax, giving them cause to want to procreate  - Hence _liking_ it.[/b]



Wow you are so smart, I totally did not know that, at all. FWI: Sarcasm.






> I like violence. I would like to punch many people in the coarse of a day.[/b]



An action that has a victim, unless if you punch a boxing ball on a stick, what often gives the same kind of relief. 





> I like watching oral sex videos[/b]



An action that has no victim in any way.





> I like certain drugs and drinking.[/b]



An action that has no victim, unless if you drive and drink perhaps. 





> I could go on.[/b]



Yes do. I don&#39;t see the problem with the list. 





> But any one of those three could be chosen by any given individual to have  no implicit reason to call it wrong or immoral. That stated, I can or cannot decide to participate in any of the following.[/b]



Still a very hollow kind of reasoning. You have yet to give a good argumentation of why porn is bad and unethical. Besides this post, could you write a small article that, totally unconnected from this topic execpt for it&#39;s subject, explains why porn is unethical and such.





> I am not looking for your respect.[/b]



I am looking for a reasonable discussion without someone that tries to take the moral high ground so hard, he even changes his style of speaking. 





> You have the majority no doubt on your side. The irony is because you have let society digress into a position that has deemed pornography as normal. So Again I ask, who is the follower? You are the one conditioned to believe it is normal IMO.[/b]



Excuse me, when have I ever used the argument "society says porn is fine, so it is."? I never gave such argumentation, that would be pretty weak argumentation. All the reasons I gave were based on human psychology, regardless of society.





> http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/inde...howtopic=44549
> Actually I see you have.[/b]







> Almost as if you understand my point.  [/b]



Ah yes, I do acknowledge that things like collecting stamps or porn derives from some other evolutionary-given trait. Still, it does not make it unethical, or even unnatural. It is nature at practice in a different environment. One that allows us to watch pornography and collect stamps. In nature that are examples too of animals that, because of some other evolutionary-given trait, do things that have no evolutionary purpose.  

Also, in the topic you linked me to, you started off talking about &#39;good&#39; and &#39;evil&#39;. If anything is more relative and man-made it are those words. However I am sure you are willing to call (watching) porn &#39;bad&#39;. I would like to know the reason behind that. If you think it is unnatural, thus bad, that would mean you disagree with keeping handicapped people alive. This might seem somewhat off-topic, but it really is about the absolutist labeling you practice that I just can not agree with, I do not even find absolutist labeling possible.
-

Don&#39;t forget that small article I mentioned, I would really like to know where you are going from with your &#39;it is unethical and of weak morals&#39;, since you have failed to made that clear to me as of now.  

Ohhhh I am starting to talk all fancy too  ::wink::

----------


## Howie

> This is the problem, and why no one will understand people like Howietzer&#39;s viewpoints.
> 
> We (or at least I) believe I see a connection with porn (and many other self-indulgent habits let out of control) and an almost unlivable decadent society.
> 
> The problem with these arguments is that whenever we state this viewpoint, immediate offense is taken. One must understand that this is a collective problem, and no fingers are being pointed at any one person; just like how industry tramples everything that gets in it&#39;s way. No one person is to blame. Again though, unless one can see a connection between one thing and the other, argument is fruitless. Some people actually think this world is currently at it&#39;s best, which further complicates the argument.
> 
> Finally, hanging on words is a waste of time. Remember that "higher" is just a word after all, and I guess that you probably know what was actually meant by it. We make choices in life, whether our choice is "higher" or "preferred" it merely means that it was to us the best choice at the time.[/b]



Thank you very much Never.
That was very well said. 
As you see here, you have given a very good response.  Due to the fact that offense is taken, as you pointed out, your post had been over looked for the simple reason they could go on to attack my response.
But I do not feel, if they deep down do not understand (not to be mistaken with, having to agree with ) a rather simple vantage point as I have argued, that they will never understand.

----------


## Neruo

> This is the problem, and why no one will understand people like Howietzer&#39;s viewpoints.
> 
> We (or at least I) believe I see a connection with porn (and many other self-indulgent habits let out of control) and an almost unlivable decadent society.
> 
> The problem with these arguments is that whenever we state this viewpoint, immediate offense is taken. One must understand that this is a collective problem, and no fingers are being pointed at any one person; just like how industry tramples everything that gets in it&#39;s way. No one person is to blame. Again though, unless one can see a connection between one thing and the other, argument is fruitless. Some people actually think this world is currently at it&#39;s best, which further complicates the argument.
> 
> Finally, hanging on words is a waste of time. Remember that "higher" is just a word after all, and I guess that you probably know what was actually meant by it. We make choices in life, whether our choice is "higher" or "preferred" it merely means that it was to us the best choice at the time.[/b]



Why do you listen to lame death metal? I sure totally respect you, but I think I am of higher moral values for listening to proper music. What you do is unethical, but oh wait, it isn&#39;t your fault, so it is okay for me to call your actions immoral with no argumentation. Also, I am not going to post any argumentation on why your lame death metal is of low moral values, you just don&#39;t understand the intellectually complex psychological implications.

That is about what you guys are saying? 

Ok. Meanwhile, the world loves porn. Even in Muslim-extremist Pakistan they are said to watch some hot porn on the Internet  quite often, that shows how porn is totally something I was indoctrinated with. If it shows anything, it shows that you are a select few, that just rebel against an overly sexual orientated western society, and your prudentially overshot normal, basic human values and psychology by miles.

Fap fap fap fap, my dearest sirs that still lack proper explanation of (the psychology of) why porno is bad.

-

Extremely big EDIT: Has anyone seen the *enormous* irony in Howitzers signature yet?  :smiley:  Dang that stroke me as funny.

----------


## Howie

> Extremely big EDIT: Has anyone seen the enormous irony in Howitzers signature yet? a_happygolucky.gif Dang that stroke me as funny[/b]



Bikini porn. That is a HUGE irony Neuro. Why do you keep grasping for something to make me look less credible. All you are doing is trying to defend yourself and make you look more credible
We both know porn promotes loving efectionate love making and cuddling.   ::roll::  






> Why do you listen to lame death metal? I sure totally respect you, but I think I am of higher moral values for listening to proper music. What you do is unethical, but oh wait, it isn&#39;t your fault, so it is okay for me to call your actions immoral with no argumentation. Also, I am not going to post any argumentation on why your lame death metal is of low moral values, you just don&#39;t understand the intellectually complex psychological implications.[/b]



That is about what you guys are saying?

Death metal Could  very well send an extreme violent message to our youths
This genre of music&#39;s topics are generally very negetive.
~ I myself listen to death metal, I realize the immplications it can or could have on me children and society.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Neruo")</div>



> Ok. Meanwhile, the world loves porn. Even in Muslim-extremist Pakistan they are said to watch some hot porn on the Internet  quite often, that shows how porn is totally something I was indoctrinated with. If it shows anything, it shows that you are a select few, that just rebel against an overly sexual orientated western society, and your prudentially overshot normal, basic human values and psychology by miles.[/b]



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Neruo")</div>



> Excuse me, when have I ever used the argument "society says porn is fine, so it is."? I never gave such argumentation, that would be pretty weak argumentation. All the reasons I gave were based on human psychology, regardless of society.[/b]








> Fap fap fap fap, my dearest sirs that still lack proper explanation of (the psychology of) why porno is bad.[/b]




So you would like for  me to detail something in the order like I did with the short example of death metal?
Will you say in all honesty, that you cannot for the life of you come to some conclusions for yourself why porn may be unethical? 
If sadly this is the case, then yes. I can outline it for you.

----------


## Never

I wasn&#39;t attempting to explain why porno is "bad". Anyhow, there are obvious problems with big industry that do not need explaining, or shouldn&#39;t anyway, aside from my personal dislike of porn.

lol, I am not about to get into a rant about the music industry now; but it&#39;s tempting. I understand your point, but to me they are not at all the same. Besides, the musicians I listen to usually record out of their basements. If you want to pick on something, make it MTV.

I tend to dislike anything that goes far away from intellect. Sure, some things are fun and not always serious, but we all have our limits. My boundaries just happen to be very close.

----------


## Howie

> I wasn&#39;t attempting to explain why porno is "bad". Anyhow, there are obvious problems with big industry that do not need explaining, or shouldn&#39;t anyway, aside from my personal dislike of porn.[/b]



Again Never. Such a valid point.
This is where I must have went wrong. 
After 29 pages of posts,  I thought we were far deeper into intellectual discussion than the basics.
By attempting to go into psychology and the like, is provinggthis so.

----------


## Never

Unfortunately, it is very difficult sometimes to explain how you feel without making the other person think you are somehow looking down on them. After much time, I cannot figure out how to do it on this particular subject, so I don&#39;t bother anymore lol. Angering people just makes a stalemate. Misunderstandings are perhaps the biggest obstacles in such a debate.

----------


## Neruo

> Bikini porn. That is a HUGE irony Neuro. Why do you keep grasping for something to make me look less credible. All you are doing is trying to defend yourself and make you look more credible
> We both know porn promotes loving efectionate love making and cuddling.  [/b]



Yes, it are totally different things... no? It is the same. It is erotica, it is an attrackive female body. If not for evolutionary-useless eroctic entertainment, then why do you have that avatar? Seriously, everyone can the the irony. You have that avatar because you like it, you like a butt, of a women you probably never met, never will meet. What is the difference between that and porn? Does that picture Promote respect for women, *a*ffectionate love making and cuddling? 






> That is about what you guys are saying?
> 
> Death metal Could  very well send an extreme violent message to our youths
> This genre of music&#39;s topics are generally very negetive.
> ~ I myself listen to death metal, I realize the immplications it can or could have on me children and society.[/b]



lol. Then you have low moral standards, is it not? The "Some people just have higher Moral standards then others." does not apply to you? I couldn&#39;t agree more.





> So you would like for  me to detail something in the order like I did with the short example of death metal?
> Will you say in all honesty, that you cannot for the life of you come to some conclusions for yourself why porn may be unethical? 
> If sadly this is the case, then yes. I can outline it for you.[/b]



You still fail. Also, I didn&#39;t know I lived in Pakistan. That is about the opposite of MY society. 

Seriously Howziter, just type that article, right now, I see you as a fundamentalist Christian talking nonsense, only more of an unkind asshole to be honest, and you pose less counter arguments, if any.

-

Also, you ignored half my post. I will just ask 2 things of you for the sake of the discussion.

A) Finally give a proper explanation of why porn is unethical. Why did I have to ask 5 times for this? Just write a reply as if you were telling it to my 11-year-old sister (that doesn&#39;t exist). Please do this.

B) Don&#39;t you think you and never are just extremely rebellious of the increasingly sexual western society? You overshot normal human value, and try to take some sort of non-existent higher moral ground on the subject of erotica. Certainly Never, I heard him say some weeks back he was annoyed everything he saw excessive erotica material on TV or such. 

-

If you again fail to answer such simple questions, then really you aren&#39;t in a debate, then you are practicing verbal masturbation, then you are having a monologue with the occasional insult.

----------


## Never

> Don&#39;t you think you and never are just extremely rebellious of the increasingly sexual western society?[/b]



Indeed I am.





> You overshot normal human value, and try to take some sort of non-existent higher moral ground on the subject of erotica.[/b]



However you want to look at it is fine.





> Certainly Never, I heard him say some weeks back he was annoyed everything he saw excessive erotica material on TV or such.[/b]



Indeed I did.   ::wink::   In fact I came on quite strong and pissed everyone off. I learned from that episode. I am quite extreme about such matters; hell, I haven&#39;t watched television in years because even commercials I cannot tolerate. Only recently have I let my anger go about such matters, but my opinion remains the same.

----------


## Neruo

Yes, I can see why Howitzer agrees so much with you, Never.

----------


## Howie

> Yes, it are totally different things... no? It is the same. It is erotica, it is an attrackive female body. If not for evolutionary-useless eroctic entertainment, then why do you have that avatar? Seriously, everyone can the the irony. You have that avatar because you like it, you like a butt, of a women you probably never met, never will meet. What is the difference between that and porn? Does that picture Promote respect for women, *a*ffectionate love making and cuddling?[/b]



What is the difference between that and porn?  ::tongue::  
I love the human figure. More so woman than men because I am heterosexual. But as a natural instinct, the human figure is marvelous. Male and Female.
I don&#39;t think cave men had this, "evolutionary-useless erotic entertainment." to arouse themselves to procreate.
Honestly Neruo, You wonder why I write such statements as (Me feel good Me DO) Take a look at what I am responding to. What do you want me to do?





> Seriously Howziter, just type that article, right now, I see you as a fundamentalist Christian talking nonsense, only more of an unkind asshole to be honest, and you pose less counter arguments, if any.[/b]



This has nothing to do with religion. I do not claim a religion. I argue what I feel to be natural and unnatural. Very similar to an argument in the homosexual Poll - post.

I am sincerely apologetic if you see me as unkind. I do realize why you feel that way. like Never said, 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Never")</div>



> Unfortunately, it is very difficult sometimes to explain how you feel without making the other person think you are somehow looking down on them. After much time, I cannot figure out how to do it on this particular subject, so I don&#39;t bother anymore lol. Angering people just makes a stalemate. Misunderstandings are perhaps the biggest obstacles in such a debate.[/b]



If I am stating my principles for myself and you judge them to be different, in your case better, then the outcome will not be pretty. 






> lol. Then you have low moral standards, is it not? The "Some people just have higher Moral standards then others." does not apply to you? I couldn&#39;t agree more.
> You still fail. Also, I didn&#39;t know I lived in Pakistan. That is about the opposite of MY society.[/b]




This is worded so poorly that I make little sense of it.
If you are saying that my standards are lower than people that do NOT listen to death metal, then yes. I agree for the  reasons I had previously mentioned.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("neruo")</div>



> A) Finally give a proper explanation of why porn is unethical. Why did I have to ask 5 times for this? Just write a reply as if you were telling it to my 11-year-old sister (that doesn&#39;t exist). Please do this.
> 
> B) Don&#39;t you think you and never are just extremely rebellious of the increasingly sexual western society? You overshot normal human value, and try to take some sort of non-existent higher moral ground on the subject of erotica. Certainly Never, I heard him say some weeks back he was annoyed everything he saw excessive erotica material on TV or such.[/b]



A)We have discussed in detail that a character value is and can be established by each individual, correct?
Porn as I see it is a fragment of something natural (sex) a twisted into a perversion. It is an individual choice. I feel the choice to partake in pornography is a dishonorable act. 
I try and often fail to be a person with  scruples.  A respectable conscientious human.





> I tend to dislike anything that goes far away from intellect. Sure, some things are fun and not always serious, but we all have our limits.[/b]



I have gone into great emphasize on our human psyche. 
*Those are MY moral principles that make it unethical to ME.

My vantage point towards society.
You will argue that the woman are old enough and have a choice. They do. Take a look into their past and see what kind of life they most likely have led for them to go down this path.

Most often it does not depict "normal sex" Do you need me to go into detail? 
This is what often leads to the degrading analogies.

What kind of family values would a person in this industry have?
Would you like to be with someone form the porn business?

This leads me to the next point. The Porn business  using explicit sexual entertainment for profit. 

This as it becomes more mainstream has a trickle down effect. That is evident on television and magazines. It is lowering our over all standard as a society. A society that could reestablish family values. 

_This is something that i had cam up with about four years ago on one of my hiking journeys.
temptation lies wait for every man. Left unchecked could be their demise._  JC

That sums it up Neruo. Everything in moderation. To me what is natural and *nature are clear to me. But this is just my perspective. Yours differs.
I don&#39;t know what else to say.

----------


## Neruo

> What is the difference between that and porn? [/b]



Most of the time girls in little clothes are more hot then woman with no clothes on. The only purpose of that picture is erotica. Gosh Dang I didn&#39;t know you were such a hypocrite. To me, and probably to more people, that picture can be as erotic as full frontal ass-rape.





> I love the human figure. More so woman than men because I am heterosexual. But as a natural instinct, the human figure is marvelous. Male and Female.
> I don&#39;t think cave men had this, "evolutionary-useless erotic entertainment." to arouse themselves to procreate.
> Honestly Neruo, You wonder why I write such statements as (Me feel good Me DO) Take a look at what I am responding to. What do you want me to do?[/b]



No, cave-men didn&#39;t have pictures of women in bikinis that hey used as their signature because they liked them (and more then male bodies). Does that make having a picture of a hot woman&#39;s bottom in a bikini more or less unethical or unnatural then porno, that cavemen also did not have? No.  It are exactly the same things, one just more obvious then the other.





> This has nothing to do with religion. I do not claim a religion. I argue what I feel to be natural and unnatural. Very similar to an argument in the homosexual Poll - post.[/b]



You have the same mind process on this subject as a fundamentalist Christian on religion, that was what I was saying.





> I am sincerely apologetic if you see me as unkind. I do realize why you feel that way. like Never said, 
> 
> If I am stating my principles for myself and you judge them to be different, in your case better, then the outcome will not be pretty.[/b]



No howitzer, you aren&#39;t stating your principles, you are stating your principles as being better then other people. Instead of saying "some people have higher moral values" you should have said "some people have different moral values".






> This is worded so poorly that I make little sense of it.
> If you are saying that my standards are lower than people that do NOT listen to death metal, then yes. I agree for the  reasons I had previously mentioned.[/b]



How consistent. =) I do find it interesting that I have gotten you to say you are of low moral values on that subject. I don&#39;t agree with you however, I don&#39;t think listening to death metal is unethical, of low morals or even un-natural. Death metal has a certain power, a certain edge to it that humans like, in the same way we like building a sandcastle and then stomping on it. 





> A)We have discussed in detail that a character value is and can be established by each individual, correct?
> Porn as I see it is a fragment of something natural (sex) a twisted into a perversion. It is an individual choice. I feel the choice to partake in pornography is a dishonorable act.[/b]



Yes I knew this. You still havened said however, by _What_ exactly you are measuring &#39;dishonor&#39;. Just personal feeling? Is feeling a good basis to judge something? Perhaps. But you can&#39;t convince anyone if all you use is personal feeling. Just because something isn&#39;t natural as it was done in nature doesn&#39;t mean it is bad. _Art_ too is derived from twisted natural instincts and traits.





> I try and often fail to be a person with  scruples.  A respectable conscientious human.[/b]



Well, I wonder what you would do if you were in control of a country, would you ban porn? 





> I have gone into great emphasize on our human psyche. 
> *Those are MY moral principles that make it unethical to ME.[/b]



Never stop to think _why_ you have the moral principles you have? On what basis are they build? They did come from somewhere.





> My vantage point towards society.
> You will argue that the woman are old enough and have a choice. They do. Take a look into their past and see what kind of life they most likely have led for them to go down this path.[/b]



I am not talking about the porn industry, that often sucks. I am talking about the pure concept of erotica and pornography. I am sure there are quite some women rather much forced into porn. Same with prostitution. 

(Edit: To many quote-boxes. Quoted text will be_ like this._)

_
Most often it does not depict "normal sex" Do you need me to go into detail? 
This is what often leads to the degrading analogies._


Quite often, the sex it depicts are the things I might want to do in my dreams, but never in reality. In what way is abnormal sex bad? It appears that _a lot_ of people are turned on by abnormal sex, by kinky sex, by thrilling sex. Doesn&#39;t that make it natural? I don&#39;t think that people like abnormal/kinky sex just because of society.


_What kind of family values would a person in this industry have?
Would you like to be with someone form the porn business?_

Again, I am not talking about the porn business. Also, lets say you are a woman, would you like to marry van Gogh? Probably not. He still made fine art. I am not talking about the industry, I am purely talking about the porn. Also, I am certain there is porn that is made my two people that love each other.


_This leads me to the next point. The Porn business  using explicit sexual entertainment for profit._

McDonalds is using explicit fatty foods for profit. I don&#39;t see what the problem is here.

_
This as it becomes more mainstream has a trickle down effect. That is evident on television and magazines. It is lowering our over all standard as a society. A society that could reestablish family values._ 

"lowering". I say "changing". What does family values have to do with it? You don&#39;t honestly think your extremely contemporary ideas of family value have some sort of higher value that is present all though humanity and it&#39;s history? Your family values are horrible in the eyes of a proper family in the 16th century. 


_This is something that i had cam up with about four years ago on one of my hiking journeys.
temptation lies wait for every man. Left unchecked could be their demise._  JC

Their demise in what way? In what way do people that watch porn not function? If I watch porn, I disconnect that completely from love. A woman I will love, I will see completely different as the woman in porn. It doesn&#39;t lower any of my values.


_That sums it up Neruo. Everything in moderation. To me what is natural and *nature are clear to me. But this is just my perspective. Yours differs.
I don&#39;t know what else to say._


If you take away the bad things about the industry, and the effects You think are bad on society, you don&#39;t have much left. I still don&#39;t see why you hate porno at it&#39;s very base. You hate the concept of a person enjoying watching a picture with a nude woman or man engaging in some sexual act. Why you hate that, is still a huge mystery to me. Also, your motivations to think of moderation as virtuous is a mystery to me. If I look at humanity, and to take an example the amount of overweight people in western society, moderation isn&#39;t natural. Just because animals are forced into moderation by the environment doesn&#39;t mean they will eat themselves to death if they have the chance.

----------


## Howie

> If you take away the bad things about the industry, and the effects You think are bad on society, you don&#39;t have much left.[/b]



Neruo Neruo Neruo  ::shakehead2::  

I don&#39;t need anymore. Do you see this?
It is you that seems so  defensive. Why is that?


You say I hate porn. I have not stated that. You say I insist I am better than others.
All I have offered time and time again is my opinions. 
All you have done is demand answers, get defensive and try and unravel my position on the matter.

You should reread the entire post. From beginning to end. IMO.

----------


## Neruo

> Neruo Neruo Neruo  
> 
> I don&#39;t need anymore. Do you see this?
> It is you that seems so  defensive. Why is that?[/b]



A) stop acting like a retard. I would have said this much earlier if you wasn&#39;t a moderator, but can assure you I am treating you equally with any forum member that keeps acting like a little child and doesn&#39;t augmentate but just uses lame smileys to try to demean what I say   ::shakehead2::  

Anyhow, how is it defensive? You are so full of shit Howitzer. If you knew anything about this discussion, then you know that I agree that the industry isn&#39;t perfect, but I wasn&#39;t talking about the industry, or even about the effect on society, I was talking about porno. Or do you have nothing against porno, _except_ for it&#39;s bad industry and it&#39;s effect on society? I don&#39;t think you do, but you really mis to point out that. When I asked you to explain, I thought I made it pretty clear I asked about why you dislike porno, it&#39;s concept, and with what ethical and psychological reasons. I wasn&#39;t talking about society. I was talking about what would be wrong about porn if there was one person on the world, so to say. 





> You say I hate porn. I have not stated that. You say I insist I am better than others.[/b]



Hated? I don&#39;t know, is something you find "unethical" and "of low moral standards" not something you hate? It comes down to the same thing. Also, stating people that do not watch porn are "of higher moral values" clearly shows you do think you think you are better then others. 





> All I have offered time and time again is my opinions. 
> All you have done is demand answers, get defensive and try and unravel my position on the matter.[/b]



Why the hell have you ever been in the R/S forum, if this is your viewpoint? I personally do like some answers and argumentation before people start talking nonsense and start thinking they are &#39;morally&#39; superior to others. You feel like you need not to explain, that because it is your opinion asking about it is useless. That is exactly what fundamentalist do. 





> You should reread the entire post. From beginning to end. IMO. [/b]



I might, since you ignore my (even pretty polite) asking for a properly argumentated description of why your opinion is the one it is. 

-

Also, it rarely is that the one in defense has the longest posts. You are just ignoring many arguments with some "don&#39;t be so defensive". If you might actually dare to respond to all of my points, something you fail at, for some reason I can only guess at (*cough-defensive-cough*), you might actually succeed in having a discussion, but you aren&#39;t quite the king of that.

----------


## Howie

> A) stop acting like a retard. I would have said this much earlier if you wasn&#39;t a moderator, but can assure you I am treating you equally with any forum member that keeps acting like a little child and doesn&#39;t augmentate but just uses lame smileys to try to demean what I say   
> 
> Anyhow, how is it defensive? You are so full of shit Howitzer. If you knew anything about this discussion, then you know that I agree that the industry isn&#39;t perfect, but I wasn&#39;t talking about the industry, or even about the effect on society, I was talking about porno. Or do you have nothing against porno, _except_ for it&#39;s bad industry and it&#39;s effect on society? I don&#39;t think you do, but you really mis to point out that. When I asked you to explain, I thought I made it pretty clear I asked about why you dislike porno, it&#39;s concept, and with what ethical and psychological reasons. I wasn&#39;t talking about society. I was talking about what would be wrong about porn if there was one person on the world, so to say. 
> Hated? I don&#39;t know, is something you find "unethical" and "of low moral standards" not something you hate? It comes down to the same thing. Also, stating people that do not watch porn are "of higher moral values" clearly shows you do think you think you are better then others. 
> Why the hell have you ever been in the R/S forum, if this is your viewpoint? I personally do like some answers and argumentation before people start talking nonsense and start thinking they are &#39;morally&#39; superior to others. You feel like "you need not to explain, that because it is your opinion asking about it is useless. That is exactly what fundamentalist do. 
> I might, since you ignore my (even pretty polite) asking for a properly argumentated description of why your opinion is the one it is. 
> Also, it rarely is that the one in defense has the longest posts. You are just ignoring many arguments with some "don&#39;t be so defensive". If you might actually dare to respond to all of my points, something you fail at, for some reason I can only guess at (*cough-defensive-cough*), you might actually succeed in having a discussion, but you aren&#39;t quite the king of that.[/b]




I hope to be responded to like any other member just because I am a Mod.   ::wink::   (for the record_)

You could not for see this type of question coming down to ethics? please&#33;&#33;
I am an atheist. But I believe in a high moral standard for myself, which in turn has an impact on society. Or so I would hope.
Porn is something I see negative for society.
What do you want me to address? What do you want me to add?

There are so many topics we can discuss that could make this world a better place. I fail miserably in many of those areas. 
We are discussing pornography. I have given my position on this up down, left right. 
I don&#39;t understand. The reason I suggested reading the post was to not sound like an ass but because I have, like I said put in in so many ways to try and get my perspective across. 
But you continue to want more.
What have I not address?

I suppose I can go forward and rip your above response to peace has I have been doing but that is too time consuming and has not been affective.
"In what way is abnormal sex bad?" It could be something to do with the abnormal part.


"moderation isn&#39;t natural. Just because animals are forced into moderation by the environment doesn&#39;t mean they will 
eat themselves to death if they have the chance."
That is the beauty for most humans. We can use moderation.

----------


## Neruo

> I suppose I can go forward and rip your above response to peace has I have been doing but that is too time consuming and has not been affective.[/b]



Yeah you stopped doing that pretty early. HMMM.





> "In what way is abnormal sex bad?" It could be something to do with the abnormal part.
> "moderation isn&#39;t natural. Just because animals are forced into moderation by the environment doesn&#39;t mean they will 
> eat themselves to death if they have the chance."
> That is the beauty for most humans. We can use moderation.[/b]



So? Don&#39;t wank about &#39;natural&#39; and &#39;unnatural&#39; in topics about homosexuality then. "That is the beauty for most humans. We can do different things then our nature.". Whoopy do, gay people are as much of high morals as you are, just going in against a different nature. You still put this certain &#39;thing&#39; into your discussions. Like a &#39;godly&#39; factor. I don&#39;t mean any religious god, or a deity of some kind, I mean a certain factor that surpasses humans and logic, yet you can magically tap into this source of knowledge, absolute un-subjective &#39;right and wrong&#39;,. 

Also, it is pretty ironic that you first say, basically &#39;abnormal is bad&#39; then you say &#39;The beauty is that humans can do something different then their nature&#39;. Moderation is outside our nature. - You are being irrational and inconsequential.  - You have faith in these higher moralities of you with as much foundations to stand on as religious people, people that think their country is the best in the world or people that are just totally certain they saw that alien/angel/bigfoot. That isn&#39;t being very original, that is as common as it gets.

----------


## gguru1

Victim? Pah.   ::roll::  

Nothing irks me more than when people judge my happyness/being based on their own values.

Like when hunters or fishermen tell me that I&#39;m a violent terrorist who devalues human life and thinks that animals are "better" than people the instant they find out I&#39;m a vegetarian.

----------


## Howie

> Victim? Pah.   
> 
> Nothing irks me more than when people judge my happyness/being based on their own values.
> 
> Like when hunters or fishermen tell me that I&#39;m a violent terrorist who devalues human life and thinks that animals are "better" than people the instant they find out I&#39;m a vegetarian.[/b]



I here you. I am an avid hunter but I don&#39;t see why vegetarians always get the finger pointed at them. It is their choice. I guess it goes both ways.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("neruo")</div>



> Also, it is pretty ironic that you first say, basically &#39;abnormal is bad&#39; then you say &#39;The beauty is that humans can do something different then their nature&#39;. Moderation is outside our nature. - You are being irrational and inconsequential. - You have faith in these higher moralities of you with as much foundations to stand on as religious people, people that think their country is the best in the world or people that are just totally certain they saw that alien/angel/bigfoot. That isn&#39;t being very original, that is as common as it gets.[/b]




Now we regress back to the entire part that I TRIED to explain about human physiology that you originally rebutted.
Or did not understand or what ever.  
You will simply go round and round adversely forgetting information form previous posts.
If saying that I am trying to be a more moral person by not advocating porn, makes me a _better_ person then sure. I think in most cases people would agree with that.
As far as any more intellectual dialog,  (well I don&#39;t have anything nice to say. I will just end. 

 ::cheers::   ::lipssealed::

----------


## Tallus

> *Sex.  Sex is something sacred.  To be shared with two people.  
> These two people who are commiting the act of sexual intercourse have something between them that no other being should see.*[/b]



Why?

----------


## Tallus

> ...You still put this certain &#39;thing&#39; into your discussions. Like a &#39;godly&#39; factor. I don&#39;t mean any religious god, or a deity of some kind, I mean a certain factor that surpasses humans and logic, yet you can magically tap into this source of knowledge, absolute un-subjective &#39;right and wrong&#39;.[/b]



Good point. I&#39;d like to point out that morals are simply guidelines that people use to live their lives. Why would someone choose to believe that his or her morals are better than those of someone else? People can argue all they want about certain &#39;unchangeable moral standards&#39;, but these kind of judgements are subjective and cannot be concretely proven. Many people don&#39;t even know where these morals came from&#33; Personally, I think that the reason some aspects of Western culture are so repressed dates back to the settlement of the Americas. The settlers brought Christianity with them, and they set up missions to convert the natives to that religion. They established governments and wrote laws based on the morals imposed on them by religion, and as a result, those Christian morals filtered down into later generations. Even if an individual living in one such country was not a Christian, he or she would still be influenced by the laws of that country, as well as by what is considered socially acceptable at the time. Despite our government&#39;s policy of separating religion from the State, there are still active laws that have their origins in Christianity. Monkey see, monkey do. Monkey fit in. For goodness&#39; sake, this is the kind of behavior that _teenagers_ engage in&#33;

People are taught that it is somehow wrong to think lustfully about another person or have sex with them when they aren&#39;t married. Most people don&#39;t bother to question these rules - they become a kind of black-and-white standard on which almost all other judgements are made. I&#39;m going to ask the big question: why? Why are these things wrong? They cannot be scientifically proven to be wrong, and yet we continue to believe they are. We even make things like the "corruption of a minor" illegal. Let me be blunt and say that that is one of the strangest, most backward-thinking laws I have ever heard about. There are laws banning certain sexual acts, bans on gay marraige, bans on public nudity, etc., and all because people don&#39;t bother to question the nature of morals or their origin.

People should be able to chose how they live their lives without being judged. If certain behaviors cannot be proven to be harmful, then they should not be illegal or considered taboo. If you don&#39;t want to walk around naked in public, good for you. You have the power to choose. Isn&#39;t that what this country is about?

----------


## Tallus

About moderation: People will keep taking until they feel they&#39;ve had enough. This point is set at different places for different people, and can also be situational, like rationing food amongst shipwreck survivors.

Things aren&#39;t evil, nor are animals, knowledge, or any object in general. The intent behind the actions people make can be good or evil. How you define good and evil is up to you.

Everything is natural - cars, phones, synthetic clothing, petrochemicals, smog...all of it is part of the Universe in which we live, and all of it is a product of living organisms. How can it not be natural? Most of the things that people label as unnatural are simply inorganic, or, with regards to people, not normal. Again, monkey fit in.

----------


## Rainman

Very well said, Tallus. But I must disagree with you. Not everything is natural. Every human being has natural tendancies, and nearly every human being negates his or her natural instincts in order to follow an edicate of a society, like we all do. Westernized societies themselves are unnatural simply in their existance. Why? Because by participating as a socially governed human being, we negate many, if not most of our morals that would exist prominantly in the state of nature, which would govern how we all behave in general without the presence of a standardized society.

I am neither for nor against pornography. This debate is based on individuals' ideas on what pornography is, when in reality, there are so many varients of it that it makes it much more difficult to define the immoralities of it because it is so generalized. For those of you who say you are against pornography as a general term, you are in a sense saying that you are also against girls messing around on their webcams at their own free will, or at least that it is wrong for people to self-please themselves to that form of entertainment, even thought that's what it was created for, BY the woman.

I do share the belief that much pornography is very degrading to women, and such pornography I am against. But much of it is quite neutral, such as I mentioned before - amateur webcam stripteases by random girls. I personally would not categorize that as pornography, but leaving the term pornography as a general term with no parameters is bound to create a very confused argument.

Just to switch things up a bit, one could also consider that a woman who does her own striptease on a webcam  is also degrading to women. Maybe that society (porn) has desenitized everyone affected by it to it, and so even by women it as not seen as degrading to women, even if it really is? But then again if that's the case, who is to say what is degrading and what is not? it's all perspective, and it's all opinion.

Just so everyone knows I'm not arguing for any particular side. I'm just throwing my opinions out there. I hope i don't get flamed. lol.

----------


## Ynot

porn exists cause too many women say no
they've brought it on themselves

it's like blaming a cat for killing a bird cause you forgot to feed it

----------


## Oneironaught

I'm not going to get into the morals - right or wrong - of porn because I don't care what others watch and it's not my place to judge. But, I will say that there _are_ indeed many victims of porn. Far too many families have been dismantled because of the negative impact of "doing", "producing" or watching porn. If a consenting couple desires to watch pornography together, fine. The problem comes in when one half of the couple is watching _against_ their partner's wishes. Many people consider that cheating on an emotional level.

There are also victims in those who participate in the production of porn. Far too many women have been suckered into doing it then go on to hate themselves for many years to come. It's not a positive way to enter the "work force", put it that way. Many people get themselves into a lifestyle that's very difficult to break free from, not to mention the rampant drug scene surrounding the porn production environment.

All I can say is if you choose to participate in either end of the porn industry, you'd better make sure that you're not setting yourself up for failure. If you compromise your morals it'll have a trickle-down effect that you yourself will have to live with. And if you're in a relationship, you'd better consider the feelings of your partner before you risk losing what you have.





> ...porn exists cause too many women say no...



Really? Because the opposite seems true to me. If there weren't so many loose women (and men) - just dying to screw everything in sight and to lower themselves to becoming nothing more than objects - then there'd be far less porn production going on. Don't tell me you haven't noticed the fact that there is no shortage of woman (and men) all too willing to do porn.

----------


## skysaw

Pornography = good
Child Pornography = very bad

The question regarded pornography as a whole, not specifically the more exploitive subsets thereof.

Saying that pornography is bad because "child pornography is a part of it" is like saying the human race is bad because murderers are a part of it.

----------


## B3H3M0TH4EVA

What exactly has to be in a picture for it to be considered porn?

----------


## .:Rob:.

As I see it there's nothing wrong with porn, there's just sometimes something wrong with the people who use it. Porn is bad in the same way as guns are bad. They can do a lot of damage when placed in the wrong hands.




> What exactly has to be in a picture for it to be considered porn?



That's really probably a matter of personal opinion.

----------


## Replicon

> What exactly has to be in a picture for it to be considered porn?







> Supreme Court says pornography is anything without artistic merit that causes sexual thought, that's their definition, essentially. No artistic merit, causes sexual thought. Hmm. Sounds like... every commercial on television, doesn't it? You know, when I see those two twins on that Doublemint commercial-I'm not thinking of gum.



Ah, good old Hicks... Why couldn't he live, and paris hilton die instead?

----------


## IZ

I bet the majority of people who look at porn haven't had sex in a while, a subtitution is necesary for some. But how does it effect the guys who do have a sex life. I bet you might feel like your out of gas when you have to take a though mountain trip and stop midway with bad expectation and how your partner may change and feel about how she looks at you from now and then. You sir have been victimized. But ofcourse this isn't the case for everyone.

----------


## C911

Im against it, for sure. Two of my former best friends (who are girls) where, um i dont know really what to call it, but its like "cyber rape". A person who i wont name, basicly *said* that he had one of those girls bf's and had a knife to his throat. (this was all in a online chat, and i highlighted "said" because he didnt really have the guy tied up at all). 

Basicly, he demanded these two teens, who where both 15 at the time, to show him pornographic pictures and videos of themselfs. The guy lives about 2 hours from our town, and when i heard about it i went down to check out if the guy really had the girls bf tied up, or if he was just hopin for some simple pleasure. Of course, when i got there it was too late and they had already shown him things that they really shouldnt of, but after i got there, 911 was on the way and he is now, luckily, in jail.

Just a personal experience, its really weird how some peoples minds think. If you cant get any, then go surf the web for all i care. But dont make anyone do anything like that for you. If your dimented mind wastes hours looking at this stuff, when you could be doing something alot more productive, i'd say your cracked up.

No direct offense to anyone on this forum who view the stuff. I wont deny that i havent seen some of it, or enjoyed it, just like IZ, but i am definatly against it. But hey, if a girl or guy wants to show it all for everyone in the world, i guess its really there problem.

----------


## Universal Mind

Most porn is disgusting, and the illegal/evil forms of it are out of the question.  The people in porno movies usually look like they were randomly selected at the state fair, and they usually don't show any originality or acting ability.  But when porn is good, it is *GOOD!!!*  For example, watch this supererotic hotness.  You will LOVE it...  

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6DEcRtYLkt8

----------


## C911

> Most porn is disgusting, and the illegal/evil forms of it are out of the question.  The people in porno movies usually look like they were randomly selected at the state fair, and they usually don't show any originality or acting ability.  But when porn is good, it is *GOOD!!!*



I to be honest havent seen too much porn, ive been raised the way not to really go out and scout for it. But i do agree, people who are good at what they do, i guess can make a good video. But i'd say about 99.9&#37; of all porno out there, is hicks, chicks and dudes who dont know there being filmed, and people who other people look at and go "um, she/he is ok, i wouldnt have fantasys about them, but still, there ok". 

But yes, there has to be some very good stuff out there.

EDIT: haha, i cant watch it cus my youtube account knows im under 18, i dont think this is the right place to post porn tho ><

----------


## Replicon

> I bet the majority of people who look at porn haven't had sex in a while, a subtitution is necesary for some. But how does it effect the guys who do have a sex life. I bet you might feel like your out of gas when you have to take a though mountain trip and stop midway with bad expectation and how your partner may change and feel about how she looks at you from now and then. You sir have been victimized. But ofcourse this isn't the case for everyone.



People have different sex drives, and I think it's perfectly healthy for a couple if one of the people sometimes views porn to even things out (if the difference is large enough). As long as it's not a full-on replacement, and as long as it doesn't do a better job turning the person on, it's fine.

----------


## Half/Dreaming

Man, Universal Mind, that was the hottest porn I've ever seen. You've turned my life around  :smiley:

----------


## Adam

My ex moved into modelling, and AFAIK still does it. I didn't like it at all and although the money was really good we argued so much over it, it in the end was one of the factors of us splitting up, amongst other things...

----------


## Alban

Porn makes me sad not sick, not angry sad.

I wish they would ban it.

----------


## Half/Dreaming

> Porn makes me sad not sick, not angry sad.
> 
> I wish they would ban it.



Sex is so terrible. I'm not quite sure why God made it feel good.

----------


## Replicon

> I wish they would ban it.



Why? Bambi made me sad, and I don't wish they would ban it.

----------


## Alban

> Sex is so terrible. I'm not quite sure why God made it feel good.



Porn is not sex.

----------


## Half/Dreaming

> Porn is not sex.



Yea, I'm....pretty sure it is.

----------


## Alban

> Yea, I'm....pretty sure it is.



If sex is simply a biological function like going to the bathroom, then it is.

For a few of us though, it's a bit more than that.

----------


## Universal Mind

> I wish they would ban it.



Why do you want the government to be that nosy?  If you don't like porn, don't watch it.  Why do you feel the need to interfere into how other people mind their own business in their living rooms?

----------


## Alban

> Why do you want the government to be that nosy? If you don't like porn, don't watch it. Why do you feel the need to interfere into how other people mind their own business in their living rooms?



Ok I was being a bit dramatic.

The government couldn't eradicate erotic imagery even if they wanted to and personally I don't have anything against such things for private use.

What makes me sad is the commodifying on a large, multi-billion dollar scale of something that used to be sacred- namely sex.

It's become mundane now. Not for me but for a lot of people.
I hate that.

I DO wish they would actively scale down and control the porn industry.
They're starting to control junk-food, why can't they control junk-sex?

Don't have the enough evidence that it's a health-risk I suppose.

----------


## Oneironaught

> If sex is simply a biological function like going to the bathroom, then it is.



Sex is an action.





> For a few of us though, it's a bit more than that.



You're thinking about "making love  ::smitten::  "





> ...something that used to be sacred- namely sex.



But you just said it isn't sex.





> It's become mundane now. Not for me but for a lot of people.



I agree. The true values and meanings of sex are so watered down today. Not only by the porn industry but, by advertisements, music, and products like Enzyte, Viagra, etc... Sex has become a sport and - as result - people generally don't save it for the right times and right people. It's a damn shame really. Where's all the innocence gone?

----------


## Adam

I'm Innocent  ::D:

----------


## Replicon

I kind of disagree with the notion that the popularization of "animal sex" is dragging down the more meaningful "making love" type things. I think the act of "sex" and the emotions/feelings that come out of being with someone you truly love, can (and ought to) be decoupled. That is, they aren't related by an "if and only if" rule.

For one thing, while it's great when a casual dating relationship grows into passionate love, I don't think sex absolutely needs to wait until the relationship reaches that point. You  can build up the tension and the passion without being "in love", and I don't think it's immoral to do so.

----------


## Oneironaught

> For one thing, while it's great when a casual dating relationship grows into passionate love, I don't think sex absolutely needs to wait until the relationship reaches that point. You can build up the tension and the passion without being "in love", and I don't think it's immoral to do so.



I completely agree. What I'm talking about is the fact that sex has become such a marketed thing that it's often sex for the sake of sex. Or, prostitution with or without money changing hands.

I hate all this commercialism of sex and I hate that so much of popular music turns sex into yet another sport or way to control women. I hate the fact that some many people are out only for sex. Look at half of the people that go to bars and "night clubs". Look at how many are there with the sole hopes of getting laid. I f*cking hate that; it cheapens the hell out of sex. And it cheapens the hell out of relationships because people get the idea that it's OK to go around screwing any one they damn well please. It's a bunch of BS.

----------


## Replicon

Ah ok, now I see where you're coming from. Nightclubs are a cock feeding frenzy. All the guys there are chasing women all night. It's a great place to practice your skills and get desensitized to being rejected, though  ::D: . I don't think it needs to necessarily cheapen sex. Sex is sex, and the "cheapening" is a matter of perception. If it means more to you, then that's what matters. At the same time, I think "sex for the sake of sex" also has its rightful place, and it isn't necessarily immoral either.

Men should be careful of "nice guy assumptions" about women and how they view sex. I'll leave interpretation of that last sentence to the reader.

----------


## IZ

I'm with Oneironaught, Sex has become so common that its not even appriciated any longer by the newer generations. Its now more concidered a part of dating. Also girls these days, and soon becoming wemon have lost their way of control over guys, they now have been programmed by media that sex is part of a relationship, "if you dont put out, you get put out". What happen to the days that wedding vowel and honeymoons were cool. Their long gone my friend, from your first kiss as a teenager, you would be asking each other "how much longer until we do it". Its all about sex, no more respect of the sacredness of lovemaking, if its even thought of that anymore by these newer breeds. And porn had something to do with this. Come one, and there's no disagreeing in that.

----------


## Universal Mind

Some guys idealize being devoted to a loving marriage while other guys idealize a buffet of the Girls Gone Wild girls.  I am of the latter.  Different strokes for different folks.

----------


## Replicon

> wedding vowel



 ::chuckle:: 

Vowels and consonants aside, things are not all black and white. I, for one, don't think it's the sex that's "sacred", but rather, the intimacy and love between a couple that is spending the rest of their lives together happily. Whether the members of that couple were sex maniacs before they met is irrelevant, and doesn't cheapen what matters: their connection and relationship. And hell, if all that prior sex gave them the experience to pleasure each other even better, then no harm done.

----------


## Adam

> Ah ok, now I see where you're coming from. Nightclubs are a cock feeding frenzy. All the guys there are chasing women all night.



All the guys? I often go to night clubs, I would say once a week maybe, but I do not go with the intention of 'chasing women' all night, and neither do my friends. If we meet girls there, great, but more often than not it's on a social level rather than trying to hook up with them! Unless you refer to American clubs...

I find all this rather interesting, I guess my views are slightly different from the most here. Or maybe the views of the English are slightly different? 

I think there are varying degrees of what sex can mean to people. I mean for some, particularity young people, sex is not all about loving relationships, and only doing it with the person you want to spend the rest of your life with. I mean come on, when you are young, it is all about finding yourself and growing into the person you want to be. And this includes sex. When I was younger, I knew the girlfriends I had were not the girls I was going to spend the rest of my life with, but that didn't stop me sleeping with them. 

I may be reading this all wrong, but from what you guys are talking about, you are suggesting waiting till you find the one you want to be with for the rest of your life, or never having sex with a girl unless you are in a loving and meaningful relationship? I guess if you are happy to wait that long then good on you.. I think...

Don't get me wrong, I don't sleep around, and neither have I ever had a one night stand, but I just think that there is sex, then there is love making. And for me, I am happy to have sex with a girlfriend, even if it is only on the short term, but when I do find someone special it is more loving and more about how you feel about that person, then it becomes something more, something special. I just think people put sex up on this pedestal, expecting it to be this great magical bond between people, which, when you are with someone you can give you all to, does become this special, but I think for the interim period whilst you are searching for this person, there is nothing wrong with having sex with short term girlfriends.

----------


## phoenelai

Even without Pornography (XXX)..I could survive as long as I had some sort of nudity (Playboy etc). I mean nudity can't be a bad thing right?

----------


## dodobird

I love to watch a TV channel that shows the worse porn ever, it always uses hidden cameras to show couples having sex, without asking for their permission to be on the show! It even shows sex with animals!!!

*Spoiler* for _Adults only, can click for the channel's name._: 



The Discovery Channel

----------


## Alban

> Even without Pornography (XXX)..I could survive as long as I had some sort of nudity (Playboy etc). I mean nudity can't be a bad thing right?



I have no problem with nudity. I think the human body is a beautiful thing.

I don't have any problem with arousing images either, but for me clothing can be just as, or often, even more arousing than nudity.

I hate vulgarity and exploitation and I think that's what a lot of the porn industry is.. but then again so is a lot of the music industry.

Nevertheless, I think a great deal of human life is underrun and motivated by a kind of sexual energy and I have no problem with that.

----------


## Replicon

> Unless you refer to American clubs...



Bingo!  ::D: 

When I say everyone, I hardly ever mean "litterally every person who has a penis there", but enough that women have to have their shields up, cause chances are, they will be getting hit on all night.

----------


## Oneironaught

> I may be reading this all wrong, but from what you guys are talking about, you are suggesting waiting till you find the one you want to be with for the rest of your life, or never having sex with a girl unless you are in a loving and meaningful relationship?



You are definitely reading ME wrong, that's for sure. I love sex: very, very, very much (did I also mention that I absolutely love sex? Well, I do). What I disapprove of is the constant in-your-face sex culture that's today's world. I mean, does every damn thing have to be about sex?

I hate when people "hook up" for the sole purpose of sex. To me, that cheapens sex to a ridiculous low. I hate the constant in-your-face exploitation of sex and the notion that no single product can be advertised, no single night out can take place, no single anything can occur without sex being the motive.

----------


## JulianKC52

I think porn is degrading to women so most women shouldn't do it. However, if the woman herself wants to be in that business out of her own free will (and not because of poverty or whatever) then she should have the right to be in that business.

----------


## Michael

for it. it helps the economy, helps people who are dumb but hot make money, keeps people entertained, gets people turned on(not always good i guess), probably many more good things too... nothing bad except child porn and other illegal porn.

----------


## dreamscaper22

i used to have an addiction to porn...but i cast that away and i can excercise disipline now that i dont have to deal with that....i had no self control then....but now self control has been a beneficiary in my life

----------


## phoenelai

> i used to have an addiction to porn...but i cast that away and i can excercise disipline now that i dont have to deal with that....i had no self control then....but now self control has been a beneficiary in my life



I think I have an addiction although would never admit it. Wait, what did I just say? 

I think it would be good to see if I can remove myself from that. It would be a nice cleasing. Now can I ask do you look at any sort of nudity. I think I would miss that in general.

----------


## Michael

how do you get addicted to it? it makes me more motivated to go out and get laid.

----------


## phoenelai

> how do you get addicted to it? it makes me more motivated to go out and get laid.



Good Point, heh  ::banana::

----------


## IZ

I think if you lack self-confidence, your content with a screen as your sexual arousment* and not find any reason to proceed to the real thing. (I'm not saying that anyone in here does.)

----------


## skysaw

I suppose I'm lucky that my wife enjoys it as well. It's always better to share.  :smiley:

----------


## Neruo

I love porn every now and then : )

porn porn pornnnnnn

<3

----------


## Bearsy

I love porn.

Sexy sex is very sexy.

----------


## Kal8

"There is nothing wrong with pornography, it panders to one of the most basic human instincts. the need to procreate. It is ingrained into our DNA and basic behavioural patterns. It satiates the need to procreate within those who are unlucky enough not to have a mate."

Funny, considering that 99.99999% of porn stars/amatures/whatever use contraceptives.

----------


## Replicon

> Funny, considering that 99.99999% of porn stars/amatures/whatever use contraceptives.



And they should!

----------


## Bearsy

> "There is nothing wrong with pornography, it panders to one of the most basic human instincts. the need to procreate. It is ingrained into our DNA and basic behavioural patterns. It satiates the need to procreate within those who are unlucky enough not to have a mate."
> 
> Funny, considering that 99.99999% of porn stars/amatures/whatever use contraceptives.



  ::withstupid:: 


That was talking about viewing pornography.
Not acting in it.

that'd be like me saying





> "There is nothing wrong with football, it panders to one of the most basic human instincts. the need to view violence. It is ingrained into our DNA and basic behavioural patterns. It satiates the need to fight within those who are unlucky enough not to have a enemy."
> 
> 
> Funny, considering that 99.99999% of football stars/amatures/whatever use protective equipment.




DUH!

----------


## Neruo

Shit.

I just replied with a pretty long post to something 2 years old, I didn't see.

So

EDIT:  ::banana::

----------


## IZ

I wonder if the poll will ever reach +30% in against it?

----------


## tekkendreams

> I am sure everyone has heard this before but its true so I will repeat it. Anyone who says they never looked at pornography before is lieing. That goes for girls too and it goes double for people who have the internet.




i cant describe how much i agree with ur comment 1000000000% agrred

----------


## Scatterbrain

> I wonder if the poll will ever reach +30% in against it?



Just voted _For it_.  :tongue2:

----------


## Nazzul

Im not sure if this has been posted but I have found a very interesting study s on porn. http://www.freespeechcoalition.com/w...ndallpaper.pdf

http://anthonydamato.law.northwester...files/porn.pdf

----------


## Idolfan

As far as statistics show as porn went up rape went down. As long as people don't get hurt. Or at least I got that off "Lolicon" on Wikipedia; I hope that website can be trusted now.

----------


## Rakjavik

Porn is great. It's a release. It prevents rape. Any questions? Below is the conclusion of the above posted paper by a stanford economics major.

"VII. Conclusion
The results above suggest that potential rapists perceive pornography as a
substitute for rape. With the mass market introduction of the world wide web in the late-
1990s, both pecuniary and non-pecuniary prices for pornography fell. The associated
decline in rape illustrated in the analysis here is consistent with a theory, such as that in
Posner (1994), in which pornography is a complement for masturbation or consensual
sex, which are themselves substitutes for rape, making pornography a net substitute for
rape."

----------


## IZ

Ok I'm back. Someone revived this thread and I have to reply agaisn't the issue somehow.

But I really don't want to reply to this thread anymore. My views on porn have changed since I've made this thread.

But on the point that everyone says that it prevent rape. We are all not born to be rapist or one day take actions of what a rapist would take. There are different effects for a normal person who is exposed to an envirornment of porn. Rape declining is not a reason alone to justify Pornography. Thats all I have to say.

Happy New Year Everyone! 2008.

----------


## Jdeadevil

Ok, knowing this topic was made in Nineteen Digidy two. May I just say. Pornography can be bad, specially if it's hardcore (or fat ugly people). I have never watched porn - Never will. Unless some mobile-phone-armed bastard comes up to me and goes "Hey Jonneh, look at this" and I don't even know.

 ::shock:: 

I think some people are *just* evil.

_(Specially that guy Ryan who tried showing me horse porn of his phone)_

*Funny* - Almost *double* the people are _for it_ than _against it_.

But personally I'm _against it_.

----------


## M-Cat

> I think some people are *just* evil.



Pornography has little to do with evil, and it also has to do with your definition of evil. Pornography may be evil in Christianity or what have you, but that's only a belief system and not an authority on absolute evil. In fact, there is no such thing as absolute evil.

----------


## tkdyo

personally, as some has said, it all has to do with the context of the porn.  True, most porn is the degrading kind to women, hardcore, whatever you want to call it.  But, there is also porn which is not, and it is very sensual, and enjoyabe to watch even if you are not going to do anything along with it.  I think this kind of porn is good and can actually help a couple or a lonely 40 year old virgin  :wink2:   anyways, Im for it, but not the sadistic kind.  Cause grouping all porn together is like asking "are you for cartoons or against them" (that refrence means there are a lot of kinds of cartoons)

----------


## Universal Mind

Pornography is totally bad.  I mean, what could possibly be good about Jenna Haze naked?

----------


## CoLd BlooDed

> Pornography is totally bad. I mean, what could possibly be good about Jenna Haze naked?



Er... FOR IT.

----------


## sagan-fan

I'm definitely for pornography. Sex is completely natural, and so it's completely natural to enjoy watching pornography. And even if I didn't like porn, I would still be for it. To make porn illegal would take away freedoms. it's censorship. It would be unconstitutional to make porn illegal (at least, in the United States). If someone chooses to be in pornography, or someone chooses to view pornography, it's their choice and they have a right to do that.

----------


## Mrs. Jones

it's not unethical*, and i don't think poorly of anyone who isn't unethical.

*like everyone else said- it's natural.

----------


## Kanano

I'm against it, and I'll tell you why:


I believe in soul mates. I believe everyone has a partner for this life, and the afterlife. I don't believe in making a whore out of mine, or anyone else's soul mate. It corrupts people. Most people view cheating as sex, I'm just going one step further. Who wants to think of their partner like that? Do you really want to look into your partners eyes on your wedding day and think "I hope she's been in porn". Do you want your kids growing up knowing their mom or dad were in over 75 porno films? 




I find it fascinating that most of the people who say porn is natural, and acceptable, are mostly atheists.

----------


## Photolysis

> I find it fascinating that most of the people who say porn is natural, and acceptable, are mostly atheists.



I find it amusing that you delude yourself into thinking there's an afterlife, most likely due to religious beliefs and/or a fear of death. (What's death like? Exactly before you were born. Not so bad eh?)

It's also fascinating that atheists tend to be moral for it's own sake, not because of fear of eternal punishment. And that some of the most religious countries have the highest crime rates.

Also, you can't use your personal beliefs as a justification for why everyone else shouldn't look at porn. Believe what you want, but don't start preaching to others how they should live because of your baseless beliefs.





> Do you really want to look into your partners eyes on your wedding day and think "I hope she's been in porn".



I don't. Some would. As evidenced by the fact that porn stars get married all the time.





> Do you want your kids growing up knowing their mom or dad were in over 75 porno films?



Do you want your kids to grow up in poverty? Do you want your kids to grow up in a third world country? Where do you draw the line here?

----------


## Universal Mind

> I'm against it, and I'll tell you why:
> 
> I believe in soul mates. I believe everyone has a partner for this life, and the afterlife. I don't believe in making a whore out of mine, or anyone else's soul mate. It corrupts people. Most people view cheating as sex, I'm just going one step further. Who wants to think of their partner like that? Do you really want to look into your partners eyes on your wedding day and think "I hope she's been in porn". Do you want your kids growing up knowing their mom or dad were in over 75 porno films? 
> 
> I find it fascinating that most of the people who say porn is natural, and acceptable, are mostly atheists.



Should people be able to decide for themselves whether or not they watch porn, or should you get to decide for them because you believe in magical beings like gods and soul mates?   If you believe in the latter, then you are thinking like a nonviolent version of Al Qaeda.  Unprovable assumptions about the supernatural should never be a basis for laws, especially ones that dictate what victimless activities people are not allowed to do in their bedrooms.  

The fact that it is atheists who are the ones saying porn is natural shows that opposition to pornography is all about religious imposition.  Religious imposition invoves complete disrespect for the rights of people to control their own lives.  It slaps freedom in the face.  Imagine a law being passed that bans beef because it goes against Hinduism.  Imagine a law being passed that bans sweeping with brooms because it goes against witchcraft.  It would be an injustice, wouldn't it?

----------


## Kanano

"I find it amusing that you delude yourself into thinking there's an afterlife, most likely due to religious beliefs and/or a fear of death."



Right, all beliefs of an afterlife HAVE to stem from religion or fear of death. 




"It's also fascinating that atheists tend to be moral for it's own sake, not because of fear of eternal punishment."



Just because you have morals, doesn't mean they're good. If all you have is yourself to go by, you can have excellent morals. 




"And that some of the most religious countries have the highest crime rates."



So? Just because people say they follow something, doesn't mean they do. 





"Also, you can't use your personal beliefs as a justification for why everyone else shouldn't look at porn. Believe what you want, but don't start preaching to others how they should live because of your baseless beliefs."



When did I start shoving it down people's throats? When did I say anything else except my first post? I don't care what you believe, it's your own soul you're killing. 





Quote:
"Do you really want to look into your partners eyes on your wedding day and think "I hope she's been in porn".
I don't. Some would. As evidenced by the fact that porn stars get married all the time.




Yeah, it doesn't surprise me they get married. I'm sure they have good, moral lives too. I'm not being sarcastic either, but that doesn't mean anything. 





Quote:
Do you want your kids growing up knowing their mom or dad were in over 75 porno films?
Do you want your kids to grow up in poverty? Do you want your kids to grow up in a third world country? Where do you draw the line here?



Is that supposed to be an argument against my point? Of course I don't want my kids growing up in a third world country or poverty. Who would? 




"Should people be able to decide for themselves whether or not they watch porn, or should you get to decide for them because you believe in magical beings like gods and soul mates?"



When did I start deciding anything for anybody? 




"If you believe in the latter, then you are thinking like a nonviolent version of Al Qaeda. Unprovable assumptions about the supernatural should never be a basis for laws, especially ones that dictate what victimless activities people are not allowed to do in their bedrooms."




Like I said before, I don't care what people believe. If you think it's victimless then go ahead. 





"The fact that it is atheists who are the ones saying porn is natural shows that opposition to pornography is all about religious imposition. Religious imposition invoves complete disrespect for the rights of people to control their own lives. It slaps freedom in the face."



Yes, and atheists promote moral relativism so much that there really is no set standard for good and evil. It's just how people want to live. I guess that's the point of it though, you promote the "everyone is different" thing so much you can hide your sin in it and say it's right because it's your personal way of living. 





"Imagine a law being passed that bans beef because it goes against Hinduism. Imagine a law being passed that bans sweeping with brooms because it goes against witchcraft. It would be an injustice, wouldn't it?"



Again, you're assuming I'm trying to force people to live a certain way. I responded to the question asked in the first post, and stated my opinion. 



As for certain laws. No, I don't think it's right for a group to dictate what laws their are. I'm not for people forcing other people to live their way. No matter what the controlling party believe, it only serves to make the controlled party more against it. 



Speaking of laws, I've wondered about this a lot. Since sex is mainly acceptable, and porn is fine. Why don't we allow incest too? We allow everything else besides underage, and incest would be two consenting adults wouldn't it? 


Don't give me the argument "they'll have deformed babies" People have sex now because they want to mostly, not to produce children. And saying incest is disgusting is your own personal view and shouldn't be used to make laws against it should it? 


I don't remember who said it, but someone said denying your own desires, whatever they are, is damaging to yourself. 


Check this video out:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=jQp0KowG67A



Use the argument that you used against me, and try to use it against that.

----------


## Jeff777

I really think that pornography is the smut worlds gift to society, all they're saying is "Hey...we understand, we understand people like you...it's hard to work 9-5 jobs, come home...want to relieve all that pressure...and there's no one to relieve that pressure in...we understand, and we're here...we're here for you." pornography is horrid and does put one in a state of self-victimization.

----------


## jahnauasca

I think it all boils down to where we have contractions (or in non-tantric non-newage speak, judgments). If something truly bothers you, instead of wasting a lot of your time to deplore it ask yourself why. Just be honest. Any place where you have a contraction you have and impedance to your "flow".

----------


## jahnauasca

> "I find it amusing that you delude yourself into thinking there's an afterlife, most likely due to religious beliefs and/or a fear of death."
> 
> 
> 
> Right, all beliefs of an afterlife HAVE to stem from religion or fear of death.



Not so.

 A belief in an afterlife can come from fear and be ground into you from religion. But that need not be the only sources. A fear of death only makes us focus on guilt and redemption. It also makes us horde and accumulate (which for some probably makes 'em feel more guilty  :smiley:  )  An afterlife does exist. It may be the cold hard ground or the fire of cremation with nothing more, or it could be the intangible. Either way something does happen after you die. I believe something happens, but I spend my time focusing on whats going on around me now and will worry about the "after", well, after.

----------


## IZ

> My point of view is that maybe ur right, we are all not born to be rapist but pornography does change people's minds and the way they see things also how you treat others, specially ur partner...im pretty sure we all know the difference when someone has this innocense or when the person has a perverted mind...in this case there is a lot of guys out there and maybe girls out there too that act different now all because of the way they see the world around them..the guy treats the girl like if she was some toy or something to satisfy their fantasies and that's it not as a soulmate or a beautiful girl he wants to make love to....guys can change from being romantic while making love to kinda wanting to force the girl to have sex with them, and maybe not force her a lot but what can u call it...when the girl says no and the guy is grabing her and trying to get something done...i've seen people that start from a good relationship in the bed to a kinda forcing way of having sex...and why? all because of the things they see in porn..and he wants his girl to do it just like that girl he saw in the porn website or video or also make the same sounds...what some guys don't understand is that..females like to satisfy their partners as much as they can but there is a clean way to do it and some guys don't want that..they want exactly what they have seen....Well i guess no matter how much i type, is never going to make sence to anyone here! But that's my point of view for anyone that doesn't not know it yet.



 
 :Clap:  :Clap:  :Clap: :bravo::bravo::bravo: Well said.

----------


## Universal Mind

> ""Should people be able to decide for themselves whether or not they watch porn, or should you get to decide for them because you believe in magical beings like gods and soul mates?"
> 
> When did I start deciding anything for anybody?



I didn't say you did.  I asked what you thought.  Then I said what I think about trying to make such decisions for everybody else.  I'm glad to see you don't want to do that.  I just wondered since you said you are "against" pornography.  A lot of people say that to mean they are against its existence, not just against their own personal viewing of it.

----------


## shark!

rule 34, on this thread lol

----------


## Xaqaria

I have been a victim of pornography on multiple occasions. In fact, I'll probably be a victim of pornography again after I get home from work.

----------


## Universal Mind

> I have been a victim of pornography on multiple occasions. In fact, I'll probably be a victim of pornography again after I get home from work.



:bravo:

----------


## Marvo

For me, porn is not important, though it certainly can make masturbating more efficient and give better orgasms (at least in my opinion.) It can certainly be done without though, if one wants a long wonderful sensual masturbation session.

In my opinion, porn can certainly be demeaning, but it is not. It's merely fictional "movies" with erotic content (and barely a story/good actual acting) in my opinion.

I watch porn for 3 reasons:

Need a good laugh (usually hentai)

Need a good fap (usually both kinds)

Need to waste some time (hentai/seek boobs on sites that are not supposed to have boobs(it's like treasure hunting  ::content:: ))



I hope this post wasn't too open and difficult to take seriously.

----------


## gan_naire

I have no problem with porn, except when you somehow build up a collection of 57 DVDs with a really broad range of genres, what can I say, I like a variety. However I did realize that I started to have a problem, and though there are many people who joke around about being addicted to porn, if you REALLY are addicted to porn, you end up starting to feel bad just because you watch it. Dont get me wrong, I still do view porn, but I dont have a single DVD or magazine or anything in my house that is easily accessible to pornography. It wasnt for any kind of moral reason or anything that I said I should throw away all my porn and limit myself, it was that I was getting anything done durring the day.

Now I have made limits for myself, and made it harder for me to view porn, I dont belong to any paysites or anything, I simply belong to a few groups on Yahoo that deal with nothing but porn. So thats basically my porn, that way I actually have to go through a longer process to view it, and usually I just loose interest in it. I tell you what though, I had an extremely realistic dream that I had control of, but I dont know if I would consider it lucid or not, but man if I could have a dream like that every day, that would be sweet.

----------


## awoke

I didn't read this whole thread, but to the people who say sex is a passionate act between two lovers etc... honestly, when you jerk off, are you thinking of making love to your wife/girlfriend? no, you're thinking about bending over that girl you saw in the elevator earlier. porn is just that.

this is essentially the same argument against action movies, gangster rap, and everything els thats gotten a bad rep for 'destroying' peoples minds. at the end of the day, we as adults should be able to distinguish between fantasy and reality, thought and action. watching an action movie isn't going to make you go buy an uzzi and dump on a food-court. nor is porn going to make you unable to reach climax without it being on a girls face or start raping people.

----------


## Universal Mind

Who here has been a victim of Bible pornography?  

*Ezekiel 23:19-20*

----------


## RockNRoller123

A study found that 10 minutes of porn does for your heart what 35 minutes at the gym will. Therefore porn is good for you  :tongue2: 
But in all seriousness it is not important to me. I don't care much for it, but I'm certainly not against it.

----------


## Bearsy

^Watching? 
Fapping?
Talking about?

Confused.

----------


## LucidDreamGod

I don't think you can be a victim of it, inless you think it's somehow bad for you and you convince yourself that your addicted, it's kind of like being an alcoholic for some people, if you ever watch the episode of south park were stans dad trys to deal with his alcoholism you'll know what I mean.

----------


## Half/Dreaming

Porn isnt the source of any major problem on earth, but it is motherfucking addictive. My last two weeks of training at Fort Knox, the Privates with computers were allowed to use them. That last 2 weeks was full, FULL of nonstop porn of every freaky nature on the planet. The worst being "Church of Fudge". There were constant sex noises in the rooms, and the constant "HEY DUDE YOU GOTTA CHECK THIS OUT!!!!!!" 


And I went and checked it out _every single time_. Porn is addictive, end of story.

----------


## shark!

lol america's finest

----------


## Super Duck

I'm against it, mainly because it doesn't satisfy me all that much. I'd rather have LD sex, I think.

----------


## Half/Dreaming

> lol america's finest



lol as if my nationality has anything to do with this. Jackass

----------


## Carôusoul

> lol as if my nationality has anything to do with this. Jackass



I think he was referring to the phrase "america's finest" in reference to the military, and was making a jovial jab at the antics you were talking about in reference to the military being referred to as "america's finest".

----------


## Scatterbrain

OMG 333 votes for porn, that's halfway to 666.

----------


## Universal Mind

> I'm against it, mainly because it doesn't satisfy me all that much. I'd rather have LD sex, I think.



Maybe you just haven't met the right porn yet.

----------


## Super Duck

> Maybe you just haven't met the right porn yet.



Hehe  :tongue2:

----------


## AspirationRealized

> I have been a victim of pornography on multiple occasions. In fact, I'll probably be a victim of pornography again after I get home from work.



Won the thread.

Fact is, whether or not porn is detrimental depends on the person. If you know for certain porn lowers YOUR character, don't watch it. If you're addicted, see a therapist.

People can get addicted to ANYTHING. People are addicted to the internet, which you porn bashers are using right now. That doesn't mean we should ban everything in fear for those few people who might have problems with it.

Its just like everything else. I could find you a story (and if not, if I was really serious, create one with my own life in the New York Times) that would make you swear we should ban forks. Its a bit irrelevant.

However, if you wanted to make a post to comfort those who are "victims of porn" (but I think the proper phrase would be "victims of themselves") I'm all for that.

----------


## Man of Shred

well it does help to keep guys from rapine women on some level. I feel sorry for some of the porn stars. It can't be healthy to take a guys member the size of a baby's forearm for a  living.

----------


## LucidDreamGod

> well it does help to keep guys from rapine women on some level. I feel sorry for some of the porn stars. It can't be healthy to take a guys member the size of a baby's forearm for a living.



Yeah, thats why I would feel bad for them too. That turns me off anyway, I don't like a guy in porn, I don't know it's always been a thing with me. Maybe thats why I couldn't get addicted, because I'm too picky.

----------


## dragonoverlord

I've just been thinking about porn for abit and sometimes when i go watch it i feel dirty like its un-dignifying for the women and it makes me feel dirty.

sometimes I think women look better with clothes on with THEIR dignity.

 Like the chick in my avatar. she looks way hotter then she would with clothes off cause i dont know how to describe it but it leaves more to the imagination and it has dignity. Porn is degrading to the women in the picture and to be honest girls look better with some dignity...like more nobeler

what the hell....I hope u guys know what i mean by that. Im having a hard time articulating this...

Are there any guys that have the same impression as me about porn but can express this idea better???!! Im having a hard time expressing myself without looking like a doushe.

----------


## Mes Tarrant

> well it does help to keep guys from rapine women on some level. I feel sorry for some of the porn stars. It can't be healthy to take a guys member the size of a baby's forearm for a  living.



Absolutely. They have to wear diapers a few years later if they're not careful.

----------


## aceboy

ahh pornography, the main reason i dont trust my best friend anymore. never ever give your friend a porno and think he going to keep it for himself.

----------


## Sornaensis

Naturally with 10x+ the sexual drives of any female, I have nothing against pornography. 

Duh.

Society is to blame for it's creation anyway.

----------


## dragonoverlord

Well porn does prevent rape

----------


## TimeStopper

I wish I could be against it, but that would make me a hypocrite.

----------


## Universal Mind



----------


## dragonoverlord

Why do you keep on posting that pic? I saw you post it in onother thread...

----------


## Universal Mind

> Why do you keep on posting that pic? I saw you post it in onother thread...



In that other thread, it was to answer the question of who is the girl of my dreams.  In this thread, it is an expression of how much I oppose pornography.  Thank you for illustrating how she offends.

----------


## dragonoverlord

hey you dont hear me complaining...

----------


## Universal Mind

> hey you dont hear me complaining...



Then here is a video of her with a horse.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qj8O1wzvcxA&feature=related




... except without the horse.

----------


## IZ

To those who think they are of clean mind you can prove yourselfs if you can tell me what you see here:




P.S.  Even I had a hard time at first seeing something different.

----------


## Mes Tarrant

> To those who think they are of clean mind you can prove yourselfs if you can tell me what you see here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.  Even I had a hard time at first seeing something different.





Heh, that's good!  ::lol::  Though I think the picture is overwhelmingly drawn in favor of the erotic part, not sure if that's a fair way to assess people.

----------


## Oneironaut Zero

> Though I think the picture is overwhelmingly drawn in favor of the erotic part



It has to be, because I've been looking at it for like the past 3 minutes and I still can't see anything besides the erotic bit, except a disembodied head.  ::lmao::

----------


## IZ

*In realty, I would always prefer this type of girl, anytime of day:*

 



*Than this type of girl:* 
** 


*There's something like the word "WHORE" stamped on her forehead that I just don't find attractive.*

----------


## Universal Mind

> **
> 
> 
> *There's something like the word "WHORE" stamped on her forehead that I just don't find attractive.*



 ::lol::   I am exactly the opposite.  For me, "WHORE" stamped on her forehead when she looks that beautiful drives me insane, in a good way.  By the way, who is that?

----------


## IZ

> Heh, that's good!  Though I think the picture is overwhelmingly drawn in favor of the erotic part, not sure if that's a fair way to assess people.



Yeah thats true about being in favor of the erotic, but its actualy a test to tell that if you showed this to a small child, they wouldn't be able to tell what image we obeously can plainly see, because a small child doesn't have yet a single sexual memory in their minds. So they are not yet brainwashed by todys erotic media and instead of seeing a sexual moment, they see "*NINE DOLPHINS*" in the picture.

Well didn't want to leave you guessing before I go to sleep.

----------


## dragonoverlord

> I am exactly the opposite. For me, "WHORE" stamped on her forehead when she looks that beautiful drives me insane, in a good way. By the way, who is that?



shes from GIRLS GONE WILD!

----------


## IZ

> By the way, who is that?



Don't know, just googled the pics up.

And you'r probly not familiar with a dirty whore. Not the air brushed kind, or the scripted sex whore, but the real nasty kind of whore's. Looks good on the outside, Filthy on the inside, litteraly and invisible to the untrained eye filthy. Oh well, Happy Droolings.

----------


## Universal Mind

> And you'r probly not familiar with a dirty whore. Not the air brushed kind, or the scripted sex whore, but the real nasty kind of whore's. Looks good on the outside, Filthy on the inside, litteraly and invisible to the untrained eye filthy. Oh well, Happy Droolings.



I am quite familiar with every kind of whore.   :wink2:   Here's to whores!!!   ::cheers::   ::goodjob2::   :Party:  ::wino::   ::breakitdown::   ::drink::

----------


## TimeStopper

> To those who think they are of clean mind you can prove yourselfs if you can tell me what you see here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.  Even I had a hard time at first seeing something different.



dolphins.... except for under the boob, that's not quite a whole dolphin

----------


## Sornaensis

> To those who think they are of clean mind you can prove yourselfs if you can tell me what you see here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.  Even I had a hard time at first seeing something different.



I see some girl on her knees getting some from behind. That's what I see.

----------


## dragonoverlord

> I see some girl on her knees getting some from behind. That's what I see.



 
Look at taht shadow thing where her pussy is. Its in teh shape of a dolphin. Look arond their arms and bodies and you will see ....Dolphins!

----------


## Sornaensis

Yes, but who gives a shit about the dolphins?

----------


## dragonoverlord

Dolphins are awsome how could you say that!

----------


## TimeStopper

Actually I don't think even a kid would see the dolphins that easily.
"Mommy, what are they doing to each other?"

----------


## Xox

I love dolphins.

Took me a bit to see them though, I had to squint my eyes.  ::lol::

----------


## Wrathful

In the bigger picture I see making out scene and i see the dolphin too but in my opinion it's far too small for anyone to notice straight away. At first I thought the picture was going to be like illusion where you see two different things.

Anyway, I'm all for porn. Just because I watch porn it doesn't mean I look at women as sex objects.

----------


## tkdyo

lol, you cant even see the dolphin's eyes unless you know you are looking for dolphin shapes.  Im pretty sure a child would see the human shapes, but they might think dancing instead of sex.  

anyways....sex and dolphins FTW...but not at the same time of course

----------


## Sornaensis

Yes, humans look for other humans. That's how our brains work so I don't think a little kid would see the dolphins at all.

----------


## rbm

> I am exactly the opposite.  For me, "WHORE" stamped on her forehead when she looks that beautiful drives me insane, in a good way.  *By the way, who is that?*



Her name's Misa Campo.

----------


## Sornaensis

Do you have her phone number and home address as well?

----------


## Bearsy

I love Porn.


And Misa Campo is fucking gorgeous.

----------


## wasup

I agree with the others.  I think you are seriously kidding yourself if you think kids won't see humans.  That's like saying if you showed a picture of regular woman standing there, but there is something else around them, they won't see the woman (they have boobs and a vagina, which is sexual, of course).  It's a very different thing for a child to see something and not understand it than not being able to see it at all.  Basically, a child will obviously still see the adults.  "Sex" might not be the first thing to come to mind, though.

----------


## Universal Mind

> Her name's Misa Campo.



Thank you for that very important information.   ::bigteeth::

----------


## Oneironaught

Anyone is going to see the Human shapes. That's the purpose of the illusion.

----------


## IZ

THIS IS A GREAT FIND!

----------


## Sornaensis

I don't know about you, but I saw a lamp :\

----------


## Forsaken

haha it took me almost a minute to see the dirty. I guess my mind isn't dirty enough.

----------


## Original Poster

I was trying to see the lamp.

----------


## Robot_Butler

I'm on the fence.  Before voting, I will have to review the evidence  :wink2:

----------


## Reality_is_a_Dream



----------


## Jeff777

> 



Nice nice...though it's clear that's a fake.  For one thing the lady's "genitalia" is poking out...leading me to believe she's packing a cock in there.  It's a nice edit though.

----------


## Reality_is_a_Dream

I didn't make it.

----------


## Jeff777

> I didn't make it.



I know you didn't make it.  My statement remains the same though  :tongue2:

----------


## Neruo

> 



Yeah nice photoshop. I believed it for 8 seconds. But indeed, those genetalia are way too big. That, and the very clear photoshopped weird color-differences on the skin.

----------


## lagunagirl

I think it's ridiculous how people try to justify pornography. It's just stupid. You can use as many excuses as you want but, seriously, learn to control yourself. It's not the same thing at all as simply liking sex, and I think pornography is a sign of desperation.

----------


## Neruo

> I think it's ridiculous how people try to justify pornography. It's just stupid. You can use as many excuses as you want but, seriously, learn to control yourself. It's not the same thing at all as simply liking sex, and I think pornography is a sign of desperation.



Weird, I know that have girlfriends that they like, and still they are desperate, how does that work?!

Translation: What a bunch of bullshit. Unless if you had a harem of 25 women at your disposal at any time, there are times when porn is a good second best to sex, such as McDonalds is a good second to a proper restaurant when you are really hungery, and playing checkers is a good second to playing chess if you are bored and don't have a motherfucking chessboard.

----------


## Brainchild

> I am an animal.  I am human.  I try to give my primal nature more purpose with delusions of fate and life with culture, but, quintessentially, we are all still dependant on sex in order to survive.
> 
> It's natural, and I think it is just plain stubborn to think low of anyone who likes sex.  
> 
> Yes, I have pornography, and there's nothing wrong with that.. sheesh.



Ditto.

----------


## Sandform

Porn, like everything else in the world, is just depressing.

----------


## lagunagirl

> Weird, I know that have girlfriends that they like, and still they are desperate, how does that work?!
> 
> Translation: What a bunch of bullshit. Unless if you had a harem of 25 women at your disposal at any time, there are times when porn is a good second best to sex, such as McDonalds is a good second to a proper restaurant when you are really hungery, and playing checkers is a good second to playing chess if you are bored and don't have a motherfucking chessboard.



those analogies that you mentioned are not the same at all. It's the same idea but those things are not even in the same league. I'd feel emberassed for you if you actually thought they were remotely the same.  ::shakehead::  playing chekcers instead of chess isn't going to ruin relationships and lower your dignity. Those things aren't that big of a deal. People don't understand just how wrong pornography is. To take it as lightly as to think of it as the same as settling for McDonalds instead of a nicer restaurant is just sad. As for having girlfriends and still being desperate, that's their problem. People need to learn to be happy with what they have and maybe realize that there are more important things in life than sex. That maybe truly being in love with someone would bring them more happiness than just the sexual side of things. You don't need a ton of women at your disposal to be satisfied. That's just shallow and weak

----------


## Neruo

> those analogies that you mentioned are not the same at all. It's the same idea but those things are not even in the same league. I'd feel emberassed for you if you actually thought they were remotely the same.  playing chekcers instead of chess isn't going to ruin relationships and lower your dignity. Those things aren't that big of a deal. People don't understand just how wrong pornography is. To take it as lightly as to think of it as the same as settling for McDonalds instead of a nicer restaurant is just sad. As for having girlfriends and still being desperate, that's their problem. People need to learn to be happy with what they have and maybe realize that there are more important things in life than sex. That maybe truly being in love with someone would bring them more happiness than just the sexual side of things. You don't need a ton of women at your disposal to be satisfied. That's just shallow and weak







> ruin relationships and lower your dignity.



Ruin relationships? You have to be an insecure to really take offence of your boyfriend enjoying pornography when you are not around. But if not liking porn is her only bad quality, then I am sure most guys would have no problem respecting her wishes, and stop watching porn. As far as she knows. Seriously, porn doesn't ruin relationships unless one or both of the people in the relationship either are retarded or don't know what the other person likes. With those factors, porn isn't a super-special relationship ruin-er. 

Dignity? Glad to see you have somehow found out what the unchangable essence human dignity is. According to all people in the 1800s, you are a fucking slut for not wearing skirts that reach to your ankles. Have you no dignity, wearing those man-pants?!?! 





> As for having girlfriends and still being desperate, that's their problem.



I was pointing out (I tried to make it clear, for the idiots among us) that what you said was actually absurd, since I know enough people that watch porn that are by no means desperate. Let me spell it out for you: "watching pornography has little to do with being 'desperate'". Got it now? Good. Saying people are 'desperate' because they like certain things you don't is just retarded.





> That maybe truly being in love with someone would bring them more happiness than just the sexual side of things.



I have never ever met someone that said porn was better than loving (wink wink) an actual person. Sure, being in love is fun. As is porn. No reason why you couldn't have both. I personally wouldn't like it, but there are people that are fine and happy with having a bunch of one-night-stands, just for the sex. Just because you are a confused little girl doesn't mean you know what other people enjoy. 





> You don't need a ton of women at your disposal to be satisfied. That's just shallow and weak



Well, a bunch of people at least agree that 72 women at your disposal would be nice.  :smiley:  (Since probably you don't get this reference: I meant Muslim extremists that believe they will be rewarded with 72 virgins.)

But really, life isn't a unilateral thing. It would be awesome, granted there were so many women up to it, to have 72 women to 'party hardy' with. But that would just be for fun, and a short while. And actual monogamous relationship is nice in a _different_ way. It isn't an or/or choice. I mean really, why couldn't someone just enjoy sex on a basal level? Doesn't mean love is excluded, if you happen find the right person. 

Basically, you are a silly girl to say 'oh porn is just so wrong, awwww'. Since it isn't up to you to tell what other people like, enjoy and be happy with. You don't even have proper grounds to call pornography 'wrong'. Porn can be wrong, but it never is wrong because it is porn. If people want to share their love-making, or just plain fucking, and someone wants to watch that, there is nothing wrong with that. Who says it's wrong; they arn't hurting anyone, including themselves, with it. You certainly shouldn't be allowed to take away the freedom of two (or more) adult people from doing what they want, as long as they don't harm other people's freedoms. i.e. I am glad you arn't in poltics. Because with the resentement you have of pornography you would probably ban it like a nazi. What did you do, scared shitless when you googled for 'pussy' when you was 8 and intrested in cats?

Anyhow. Get over it. There is nothing wrong with adult people doing what they enjoy. If you don't like it, go to fucking pakistan.

----------


## Grod

> Weird, I know that have girlfriends that they like, and still they are desperate, how does that work?!
> 
> Translation: What a bunch of bullshit. Unless if you had a harem of 25 women at your disposal at any time, there are times when porn is a good second best to sex, such as McDonalds is a good second to a proper restaurant when you are really hungery, and playing checkers is a good second to playing chess if you are bored and don't have a motherfucking chessboard.



Checkers is played on a chessboard, dude.

But yeah, porn rocks.

----------


## Sornaensis

> I think it's ridiculous how people try to justify pornography. It's just stupid. You can use as many excuses as you want but, seriously, learn to control yourself. It's not the same thing at all as simply liking sex, and I think pornography is a sign of desperation.



So what's so bad about it?

Most (that is, normal) guys don't get obsessed with porn, i.e. delude themselves with it, they just use it as a visual aid for sexual outlet. (Masturbation)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with it for that.

And yes, liking porn is EXACTLY the same as liking sex. You have to be a complete idiot not to see that.

----------


## Grod

sup Seis

----------


## Jeff777

> And yes, liking porn is EXACTLY the same as liking sex. You have to be a complete idiot not to see that.



One is becoming intimate with your computer/magazines/pictures and the other is becoming intimate with a real person.  Big difference.

----------


## Neruo

> Checkers is played on a chessboard, dude.
> 
> But yeah, porn rocks.



Real men play checkers on 10x10 boards, not those sissy 8x8 boards. At least, that I thought. But it appears it might be more normal to play checkers on 8x8 boards too... Well, not the checkers-board I had as a kid (actually, it was an awesome 8x8 on one side 10x10 on the other awesomeness-board). 

Who cares, checker is gay. 

Yeah, Porn rocks (and chess!!1!!!).

----------


## lagunagirl

> Ruin relationships? You have to be an insecure to really take offence of your boyfriend enjoying pornography when you are not around. But if not liking porn is her only bad quality, then I am sure most guys would have no problem respecting her wishes, and stop watching porn. As far as she knows. Seriously, porn doesn't ruin relationships unless one or both of the people in the relationship either are retarded or don't know what the other person likes. With those factors, porn isn't a super-special relationship ruin-er.



You honestly don't think that most women wouldn't feel disrespected if you wanted porn because she just wasn't good enough? Even if that's not the 
reason as to why you like it, most girls would assume that was why. I know peoples whose marriages have been destroyed because of it. 





> Dignity? Glad to see you have somehow found out what the unchangable essence human dignity is. According to all people in the 1800s, you are a fucking slut for not wearing skirts that reach to your ankles. Have you no dignity, wearing those man-pants?!?!



that doesn't have to do with anything, seeing as it isn't the 1800s. That was just stupid. 





> I was pointing out (I tried to make it clear, for the idiots among us) that what you said was actually absurd, since I know enough people that watch porn that are by no means desperate. Let me spell it out for you: "watching pornography has little to do with being 'desperate'". Got it now? Good. Saying people are 'desperate' because they like certain things you don't is just retarded.



I didn't say that you as a general person had to be desperate all around. I just said that it was an act of desperation. There's a difference. Hopefully if you're trying to make things sound smarter for the "idiots among us" you can understand it. Pornography is just using an outlet because you don't feel like what you have is good enough, because you're bored, in other words because you can't be satisfied with other things. It's almost sad how you as an adult can't see the difference between using pornography as something "just for fun" and doing anything else "just for fun". 





> Just because you are a confused little girl doesn't mean you know what other people enjoy.



 ::chuckle::  wow, you're good 





> Well, a bunch of people at least agree that 72 women at your disposal would be nice.  It would be awesome, granted there were so many women up to it, to have 72 women to 'party hardy' with. But that would just be for fun, and a short while.



that's exactly why I said it was shallow. seriously, you call me the confused little girl and i can see more of the big picture than you can. I know exactly why someone would like pornography. I can understand how it could be entertaining for people and that you could enjoy it. I also know exactly why it could be wrong. You can only see why someone would like pornography. You can only see one side of it. I can see both sides, and that's how I've formed my opinion. I would rethink who the confused one is. But I suppose you're not really going to take that into consideration. I can tell that you aren't so open-minded, and you'll probably just shrug this off. oh well...






> it isn't up to you to tell what other people like, enjoy and be happy with. If people want to share their love-making, or just plain fucking, and someone wants to watch that, there is nothing wrong with that. Who says it's wrong; they arn't hurting anyone, including themselves, with it. You certainly shouldn't be allowed to take away the freedom of two (or more) adult people from doing what they want, as long as they don't harm other people's freedoms. i.e. I am glad you arn't in poltics. Because with the resentement you have of pornography you would probably ban it like a nazi.



I wasn't saying that I was going to control what other people were enjoying.  ::roll::  And I suppose that you think you know _so_ much about my political views. If I did have power to "ban it like a nazi" i wouldn't, because I don't believe that government should have anything to do with peoples' entertainment or moral issues, because that's a person thing. All I was doing was stating my opinion, which you clearly can't seem to handle. 





> What did you do, scared shitless when you googled for 'pussy' when you was 8 and intrested in cats?
> Anyhow. Get over it. There is nothing wrong with adult people doing what they enjoy. If you don't like it, go to fucking pakistan.



 ::rolllaugh::  wow you're trying so hard

----------


## Oneironaut Zero

For the anti-porn crowd:

Is there a single one of you that honestly can tell me that you don't masturbate? _Ever?_

If you do, do you imagine you are with someone else, or are you just staring at a wall or the back of your eyelids?

If you imagine you are with someone else, is that person always your significant other? 



If you answered "No, Yes, No," (Even if you don't _have_ a significant other), you have no place to judge anyone for liking porn. Doing so pretty much brands you as a hypocrite. Mental imagery and visual imagery - used for the same purpose - carry the same value. It is simply using the depiction of sex to further your own arousal. Nothing "desperate" about it.

The overwhelming majority of all people (and most creatures) masturbate. If you're some type of unique case, who keeps a completely blank mind - or doesn't use _some_ sort of visualization to help get you off - then more power to you. It doesn't, however, give you any sort of substantial argument against those people that do, no matter how much the act of other people having sex doesn't appeal to you, personally.

----------


## Neruo

> blabla and bla








Look at it. 

Porn is _fucking awesome_. But yeah, probably I wouldn't find you sexually attractive because my idea of how a woman should look has been_ terribly distorted_ by our societies rampant popularity of pornography and explicitly sexual music videos_._ Oh no, such cruel society we live in. To bad for you. Enough people are enjoying it just fine.


(edit: the site seems not to allow people to show pictures on this forum that are loaded via their site, hence the picture changed. I found this imageshack one)

----------


## Oneironaut Zero

> 



...Ok, this is one of the funniest websites I've seen in a _LONG_ time.  ::rolllaugh::

----------


## Sandform

> ...Ok, this is one of the funniest websites I've seen in a _LONG_ time.



That picture changed!  Wtf?

----------


## lagunagirl

> Porn is _fucking awesome_.



I love how you say this objectively. I already know that you think porn is awesome, as do a lot of other people. And I don't, as do a lot of other people. It's subjective. You got all worked up when I stated my opinion. Which is what it was: an _opinion_ 





> But yeah, probably I wouldn't find you sexually attractive. To bad for you.



 ::cry::  I think I'm going to go cry myself to sleep. I care so much about your opinion of how attractive you would find me, and wouldn't have thought it creepy at all for someone like you to be sexually attracted to a 16 year old over the internet  :Sad:  how can life go on?

----------


## Neruo

> I love how you say this objectively.



People use 'awesome' as a word to indicate what they find to be of objective higher value all the time, so I see why you got the impression I made an objective statement there.





> I think I'm going to go cry myself to sleep. I care so much about your opinion of how attractive you would find me, and wouldn't have thought it creepy at all for someone like you to be sexually attracted to a 16 year old over the internet  how can life go on?



YES. Mission accomplished! 

*high-fives with Dick Masterson*


Did you react like this? : 



Good.

It makes no sense to think any and every form of porn is 'morally inferior' to your knitting or whatever it is a 1950s woman does all day.

----------


## Sandform

> Good.



Lol.  I didn't hear you and I'm glad I didn't.

Lol

----------


## Sornaensis

> One is becoming intimate with your computer/magazines/pictures and the other is becoming intimate with a real person.  Big difference.



Intimate?

Hahahaha...

----------


## Reality_is_a_Dream

lol. That Roxxor!

----------


## Jeff777

> Intimate?
> 
> Hahahaha...



What are you 12?  Since when did the word intimate become a LULZY! word?

If I say cock, and vag will you erupt with laughter too?  Seismosaur tsk tsk.

----------


## Xaqaria

> For the anti-porn crowd:
> 
> Is there a single one of you that honestly can tell me that you don't masturbate? _Ever?_
> 
> If you do, do you imagine you are with someone else, or are you just staring at a wall or the back of your eyelids?
> 
> If you imagine you are with someone else, is that person always your significant other? 
> 
> 
> ...



This argument does over look the "shortcomings" (see what I did there?) of the porn industry and what happens to actually get the real images of people having sex onto your screen or in print. There are good and bad aspects of the porn industry and its hard to tell if you are watching something that exploited someone. You can be sure no one has been coerced into doing things that they aren't comfortable with when you use your imagination.

----------


## marlie

Porn made with fully consenting adults and including no minors or animals i have no problem with and admit to watching and in some cases rather enjoying. However i do agree that I wish it was better controlled on the internet. Porn is way too acessable online for even the most novice of pc users.
The thing is children are learning to use the internet at younger and younger ages, my 12 year old nephew taught me how to put child locks on my computer, hence he can obviously take them off lol. Parents need to be responsible about their childs pc use, keeping it in a communal part of the house, and if need be invade their privacey and watch over their shoulders at all times.

So i am kind of 2 sided, i like that porn is accessable to me, but i dont want children exposed to it. which is more important? obv the kids.. so i wud say... GET RID!

----------


## Oneironaut Zero

> This argument does over look the "shortcomings" (see what I did there?) of the porn industry and what happens to actually get the real images of people having sex onto your screen or in print. There are good and bad aspects of the porn industry and its hard to tell if you are watching something that exploited someone. You can be sure no one has been coerced into doing things that they aren't comfortable with when you use your imagination.



I'll give you that. I didn't necessarily address that side of the issue, though. I was simply covering the legitimate, consensual side of the porn industry - and the adversity to it. If someone has a problem with the worst aspects of porn, then that's one thing, but that is not the entire industry. There is exploitation in countless - otherwise legitimate - industries. One cannot always just blame the industry itself, though.

----------


## Idolfan

All I can tell you guys is that the moment I typed those four fucking letters into google my entire sexuality went nowhere but DOWN.

Porn has probably had a terrible effect on my personality, the way I judge women and the way I think. I'd probably be getting laid by now if it weren't for it.

That's my opinion. Porn sucks. But I love it.

----------


## Sandform

That is why I will continue to watch porn.

----------


## Grod

> Real men play checkers on 10x10 boards, not those sissy 8x8 boards. At least, that I thought. But it appears it might be more normal to play checkers on 8x8 boards too... Well, not the checkers-board I had as a kid (actually, it was an awesome 8x8 on one side 10x10 on the other awesomeness-board). 
> 
> Who cares, checker is gay. 
> 
> Yeah, Porn rocks (and chess!!1!!!).



Heck yeah.

But 'chess porn' on google says otherwise. ::shock::

----------


## mini0991

Let me be the first one to say that I masturbate regularly (i.e. every day) and have used pornography a grand total of five times this year. That's 288 days without pornography and 5 days with. I personally do not get as much satisfaction from constricted photographs as I do from a limitless imagination. 

And let me be the next one to say that I personally do not have a problem with pornography or people using it, producing it, and whatnot. 

As a sex-positive feminist, I don't particularly subscribe to the whole "demeaning" theory. Obviously, you have never seen pornography yourself. The camera tends to focus on all the beauty and expression of the woman, while the man...is just there. If anything, it degrades guys!  ::lol:: 

But you think about this and you think about it good: what's more harmful to women, disempowering them by telling them what they can and can't do with their bodies and themselves and lives, or telling them what is fact: there's nothing nobody can tell you NOT to do. 

If it's consentual on all ends, I say go for it.

----------


## Sandform

> Let me be the first one to say that I masturbate regularly (i.e. every day) and have used pornography a grand total of five times this year. That's 288 days without pornography and 5 days with. *I personally do not get as much satisfaction from constricted photographs as I do from a limitless imagination*. 
> 
> And let me be the next one to say that I personally do not have a problem with pornography or people using it, producing it, and whatnot. 
> 
> As a sex-positive feminist, I don't particularly subscribe to the whole "demeaning" theory. Obviously, you have never seen pornography yourself. The camera tends to focus on all the beauty and expression of the woman, while the man...is just there. If anything, it degrades guys! 
> 
> But you think about this and you think about it good: what's more harmful to women, disempowering them by telling them what they can and can't do with their bodies and themselves and lives, or telling them what is fact: there's nothing nobody can tell you NOT to do. 
> 
> If it's consentual on all ends, I say go for it.



You're not doing it right...


For videos, well you don't need imagination.

For photos however, it is like imagination + 1.  =)  You use the photos to help your imagination lots =).

----------


## Tamias.Squirrel

> I am an animal.  I am human.  I try to give my primal nature more purpose with delusions of fate and life with culture, but, quintessentially, we are all still dependant on sex in order to survive.
> 
> It's natural, and I think it is just plain stubborn to think low of anyone who likes sex.  
> 
> Yes, I have pornography, and there's nothing wrong with that.. sheesh.



Well, I mean, I don't look at pornography... 

But to each his own, I suppose. A long as it makes you feel good, and as long as it isn't hurting anybody, I see nothing wrong about it. I suppose in that way, it's about as ethical as sex itself... very! So I'm voting I'm "for" pornography, even though I don't enjoy it myself...

Actually, I honestly don't see the point. I've no sexual interest in naked humans.  ::roll:: 

~tamias

----------


## Xaqaria

> I'll give you that. I didn't necessarily address that side of the issue, though. I was simply covering the legitimate, consensual side of the porn industry - and the adversity to it. If someone has a problem with the worst aspects of porn, then that's one thing, but that is not the entire industry. There is exploitation in countless - otherwise legitimate - industries. One cannot always just blame the industry itself, though.



Although the same could be said for wall street, I would say that the porn industry is inherently a self gratifying system (no joke). In this environment, it becomes a lot easier to forget about the wishes and desires of others in order to satisfy one's own desires. It could be said that prostitution isn't neccessarily an industry of exploitation, but the entire process lends itself to a massive disposition towards negative practices.

----------


## heumy

Well, all I can say is that I am somewhat addicted to porn, but not because I wanted to be. I tried quitting for a long time, until I realized that it's not really that harmful at all. Much less harmful than drinking or drugs, anyway. So I continue to use it, and so do a lot of other people.

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## Original Poster

I use porn to cover up what I'm really doing.

And just to be a royal douche bag here's a list of all the people that hate porn:


A Humble Sinner, aceboy, Alban, Amethyst Star, AngelGirl, AnnaCG07, bellatrix, Bjango, C911, coxaroxa, CrimsonWolf, Daeva, Dali, Dewitback, dreamscaper22, FreeOne, heumy, IZ, Jeff777, Kanano, Kordan, Kushna Mufeed, L, lagunagirl, Lucid Seeker, megamanx21, MellC, Mes Tarrant, Oros, pj, psychology student, QwinsepiaSquared, Scarred_for_life, Sekhmet, StephenT, stonedape, Super Duck, suttsman, TempleGuard, thisismylogin, Tmer, vivedream, xdtimoxd, Xox, Zazy

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## Sandform

> I use porn to cover up what I'm really doing.
> 
> And just to be a royal douche bag here's a list of all the people that hate porn:
> 
> 
> A Humble Sinner, aceboy, Alban, Amethyst Star, AngelGirl, AnnaCG07, bellatrix, Bjango, C911, coxaroxa, CrimsonWolf, Daeva, Dali, Dewitback, dreamscaper22, FreeOne, heumy, IZ, Jeff777, Kanano, Kordan, Kushna Mufeed, L, lagunagirl, Lucid Seeker, megamanx21, MellC, Mes Tarrant, Oros, pj, psychology student, QwinsepiaSquared, Scarred_for_life, Sekhmet, StephenT, stonedape, Super Duck, suttsman, TempleGuard, thisismylogin, Tmer, vivedream, xdtimoxd, Xox, Zazy



Mes T doesn't hate porn.

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## Sandform

Also






> To those who think they are of clean mind you can prove yourselfs if you can tell me what you see here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S.  Even I had a hard time at first seeing something different.



This only shows the difference between children and adults.

Besides, all of the white creates a whole, most of the black isn't even dolphin.

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## Robot_Butler

I was a victim of Pornography this weekend.  Let me explain.

Ok, this is one of those amazingly strange experiences that makes me question the stability of the real world.  I get way too many extreme coincidences like this.  I swear on my unborn child's soul that this is a true story.

I read through this thread for the first time the other day.  There are some convincing arguements for and against porn, and I really started thinking.  The main thing that stuck with me is compassion for the people who make the porn.  The actors and acresses that get hooked on the money and the high, and absorbed into the porn-industry-world like a cult.  I know they have a choice, but I also know it is a very all consuming world, and many people end up getting in over their heads and wind up victimized by the pimp production companies.

Anyways, my girlfriend went out for a "girls night" this weekend.  Unfortunately, all my friends are girls, so I ended up being the only one not invited.  I was mad, so I decided to make the most of my night stuck at home with an immature-bachelor's night of video games, junk food, beers and porn.  I think the porn part was partly motivated by this thread.  I wanted to see what I was missing.

Now, I don't watch a lot of porn.  I have nothing against it, I just don't have a lot of free time.  My porn detective skills are a little rusty.  I was doing my best to poke around and find something worthwhile on the internet.  After several minutes, I came across a video of a girl who looked a little like someone I know.  I thought to myself, "That's kind of hot.  She looks a lot like my best friend."  Two minutes later, I see her tattoos and realize, "Oh Shit!  THAT IS MY BEST FRIEND!"  

It was pretty raunchy, and, needless to say, FREAKED ME THE HELL OUT!  

Talk about coincidence.  What are the god damn odds?  Its not like I look at hundreds of videos a day.  Its not like I knew there was a video of her out there.  I couldn't even find anything that specific if I wanted to.

What do you guys think this means?  I have to believe this is some kind of sign from the universe.  On the one hand, it certainly made me feel a connection for the objectified women.  On the other hand, I know this young woman very well, and I know she would never do anything like this unless she wanted to.  She wasn't victimized by any pimp or industry.  She just thought it would be hot to make a video and throw it out there.  

Although I'm sure she never thought her best friend would find it.

What do you guys think?  How would you respond if you found a porn of your best friend, sister, or daughter?

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## DeathCell

> Pornography is in the top ten of lowest forms of entertainment. Besides the fact that it is utterly demeaning and stupid, it just isn't ethical. It's also illegal. I'm not a religious person and morality has nothing to do with it, in my opinion. It's just a parade  of low character.



Pornography is not illegal.
At least not in the United States..

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## IZ

I like porn, but If I could do without it I would.

But guys you have to admit, we just use it as a substitute for the real thing. Why is this? Because you get tired of just being a spectator.

If one can live without sex, then he has conquered desire.

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## Sandform

> I like porn, but If I could do without it I would.
> 
> But guys you have to admit, we just use it as a substitute for the real thing. Why is this? Because you get tired of just being a spectator.
> 
> If one can live without sex, then he has conquered desire.




No, if your goal becomes to not be ruled by sex, sex already rules you, silly. The only way to not be ruled by sex is to make it your bitch.

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## IZ

::huh:: 

I'll get back to you on that one.

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## Robot_Butler

Nobody thinks my story is weird?  Is this a normal thing that happens every day among porn connoisseurs?  And I just never knew?





> But guys you have to admit, we just use it as a substitute for the real thing. Why is this? Because you get tired of just being a spectator.
> 
> If one can live without sex, then he has conquered desire.



Since when is porn a substitute for the real thing?  Lots of couples use pornography as a healthy aid to enhance their sex lives and explore fantasies in a safe environment.  

Even if you are only referring only to masturbation, that is not a substitute for sex.  It is an addition to a healthy sex life. 

And why on earth would anybody ever want to live without sex?

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## IZ

> And why on earth would anybody ever want to live without sex?



Desire for sex

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## Neruo

> I use porn to cover up what I'm really doing.
> 
> And just to be a royal douche bag here's a list of all the people that hate porn:
> 
> 
> A Humble Sinner, aceboy, Alban, Amethyst Star, AngelGirl, AnnaCG07, bellatrix, Bjango, C911, coxaroxa, CrimsonWolf, Daeva, Dali, Dewitback, dreamscaper22, FreeOne, heumy, IZ, Jeff777, Kanano, Kordan, Kushna Mufeed, L, lagunagirl, Lucid Seeker, megamanx21, MellC, Mes Tarrant, Oros, pj, psychology student, QwinsepiaSquared, Scarred_for_life, Sekhmet, StephenT, stonedape, Super Duck, suttsman, TempleGuard, thisismylogin, Tmer, vivedream, xdtimoxd, Xox, Zazy



Haha, awesome. now I know what people are a cum-guzzling whining wankers  :smiley: 





> I was a victim of Pornography this weekend.  Let me explain.



First off:  "Victim"? If you read a book your best friend had said racist things, are you a victim of that book? I think not. I don't see how another medium (the erotic film) is any different.





> I came across a video of a girl who looked a little like someone I know. I thought to myself, "That's kind of hot. She looks a lot like my best friend." Two minutes later, I see her tattoos and realize, "Oh Shit! THAT IS MY BEST FRIEND!"



Fucking hot. 





> It was pretty raunchy, and, needless to say, FREAKED ME THE HELL OUT!



Why? Not like she was your sister. Maybe you wouldn't want to watch it, but live and let live. Your grandparents had sex. Pretty raunchy, but hey, don't blame them for what they like. I also would be scared if I saw them do it, but hey, whatever they like to do, they should. 





> What do you guys think this means? I have to believe this is some kind of sign from the universe.



Why do you have to believe that? Some people win the lottery, some people win the shit-lottery. And there are a lot of shit-lotteries in life, so just about everyone wins one every now and then.





> On the one hand, it certainly made me feel a connection for the objectified women. On the other hand, I know this young woman very well, and I know she would never do anything like this unless she wanted to. She wasn't victimized by any pimp or industry. She just thought it would be hot to make a video and throw it out there.



It sounds hot. 





> What do you guys think?  How would you respond if you found a porn of your best friend, sister, or daughter?



Family: I would be disgusted, but only from watching it, not from knowing it. As long as they are happy, I salute them. 

Best friend: If it's a guy, I wouldn't really want to watch it, but I would totally high-five him.

Best friend: If it's a girl. If it was a hot girl, I would say 'giggity giggity, oh yeaaaaa'. As long as she is happy with it, that is. 

Also, even if girls get 'sucked into the porn industry'... there are like dozens and dozens and dozens of wall street brokers that are completely stressed out, and maybe live physically unhealthy, beacause of their jobs and the good pay. Heck, no-one makes a problem out of that. I don't see why porn should be any different.

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## mini0991

I also love the culture of victimhood that some are describing here. 

There are guys in porn, too. Are they being "victimized" as well?

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## Robot_Butler

> Why? Not like she was your sister. Maybe you wouldn't want to watch it, but live and let live. Your grandparents had sex. Pretty raunchy, but hey, don't blame them for what they like. I also would be scared if I saw them do it, but hey, whatever they like to do, they should.



I agree.  I was only freaked out by the eerie coincidence.  Especially because I had been trying to understand both sides of the argument, and was recently trying to understand the objectified women and what their take might be. No judgment or disgust, just surprise.  The coincidence freaked me out in a very surreal way, like when you are surprised by a failed RC in a dream.






> Also, even if girls get 'sucked into the porn industry'... there are like dozens and dozens and dozens of wall street brokers that are completely stressed out, and maybe live physically unhealthy, beacause of their jobs and the good pay. Heck, no-one makes a problem out of that. I don't see why porn should be any different.



I wish it weren't different, but in truth, it is.   I've known several people who work in the sex industry.  It is a strange world.  Comparing it to other jobs is like comparing the cult of scientology to the christian church.  There certainly are similarities, and some would claim they are both cults.  You can, however, point out marked differences that make one 'worse' than the other.  (Oh, crap, now I'm going to piss off scientologists and christians, too  :tongue2: )  

I don't think it has to be this way.  It is just the way the industry has developed.

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## Neruo

> I agree.  I was only freaked out by the eerie coincidence.  Especially because I had been trying to understand both sides of the argument, and was recently trying to understand the objectified women and what their take might be. No judgment or disgust, just surprise.  The coincidence freaked me out in a very surreal way, like when you are surprised by a failed RC in a dream.



Ah, okay, I get it. It certainly isn't something that happens every day, I'll have to say. 






> I wish it weren't different, but in truth, it is.   I've known several people who work in the sex industry.  It is a strange world.  Comparing it to other jobs is like comparing the cult of scientology to the christian church.  There certainly are similarities, and some would claim they are both cults.  You can, however, point out marked differences that make one 'worse' than the other.  (Oh, crap, now I'm going to piss of scientologists and christians, too )  
> 
> I don't think it has to be this way.  It is just the way the industry has developed.



Maybe the Christianity/Scientology analogy isn't so bad. Both beliefs can lead to very silly things. But cults like Scientology are worse in the sense that they lead to a bigger amount of dangarous (to-themselves) people. The porn industry might be 'bad' for some girls that are easially manipulated. But still, there is nothing inheretly wrong with the industry. If we only dropped the taboo we might try to better the cicumstances in the porn indrustry. If any other job, I don't know, skycraper window cleaners, was as badly regulated in relation to worker-safty as a job in the porn industry, action would been taken to make sure window cleaners don't take too much risk and wear proper safety equiptment. 

Same in porn, if people actually looked at it as a job that has down-sides like any job, maybe it could be made into a better industry. But still: nothing inherently wrong with the porn industry (I think you agree with me on this, but a lot of people don't). 

Oh, and I wanted to make a joke about that porn stars in some cases should wear a kind of 'safty equiptment' just as window-cleaners should... a rubbery kind of safty equiptment. hehehe. (Or just make sure no one has the Aids.)

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## aceofspades

> Just so everyone can hear...er...read my opinion on porno:
> 
> 
> *THE STORY LINES SUCK, they are so freaking cheesy. * 
> Wouldn't you all agree.



except for when brian makes a porno  ::D:

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## Sandform

> except for when brian makes a porno



Who?

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## Sornaensis

> What are you 12?  Since when did the word intimate become a LULZY! word?
> 
> If I say cock, and vag will you erupt with laughter too?  Seismosaur tsk tsk.



How do you go from porn to being intimate with your computer? That's retarded. I don't know about you, but I can keep myself out of fantasy land when I'm watching porn. Do you find it difficult to grasp that it is just an image, or series of images, and not a girl who's really there?

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## Universal Mind



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## Sornaensis

Hawt.

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## Matt5678

my thoughts about pornography are kinda complicated.

Yes....It is completely natural to have sexual urges

But Pornography is kinda the lowest form of these urges. Its not about emotional connection or repoduction. Most pornography is about humiliation and control.

very primative and devoid of anything emotional.

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## Placebo

Actually, control is the basis of a powerful sexual mind game that can be very emotionally bonding amongst willing partners.
Not that I'm into it, but some of my friends are

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## Sandform

> Most pornography is about humiliation and control.



The professional porn is.  A lot of amateur porn can be found of people who are actually dating and are actually just "making love," not that that is interesting to watch, but just letting you know.

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## Dreamhope11

Porn is illegal!? Oh shit. *Throws hardrive in a fire*

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