# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity > Wake Initiated Lucid Dreams (WILD) >  >  How to have an Instant WILD

## mcwillis

Hello to all forum members,

It sounds too good to be true doesn't it to be able to have an instant WILD?  Another forum member has posted a thread about how to do this but unfortunately what worked for them won't work for most people.  Hence why there are so many disappointing replys.  There is a method that will work for everyone and I thought I would kickstart this again with a brand new thread.

On my third day at attempting an instant WILD I had one.  Well to be completely honest it took fifteen seconds to enter a full blown lucid dream from waking awareness.  Now before I tell you what I did to have an instant WILD you may be asking whilst reading it, "What on Earth is he talking about?  Straining the brain, phantom wiggling, that just doesn't make any sense?"  I will explain everything afterwards.  By the way this is not DEILD as I have reproduced positive results in N-REM sleep using an alarm.

I woke up and immediately applied "Phantom Wiggling" on my left arm for five seconds and my dream-arm was moving freely.  I could at this point have had an OBE but I wanted a lucid dream.  After five seconds of "Phantom Wiggling" I switched to five seconds of "Listening In".  After about two seconds of listening in to the high pitched natural sound inside my head it started to increase in volume.  After five seconds I still hadn't entered a dream so I switched to five seconds of "Observing Images".  I didn't see anything so I switched to "Straining the Brain".  Immediately the high pitched sound in my head became very loud so I immediately switched to "Listening In" again.  I saw a purple pool of water and thought the clarity of that is very clear and then I found myself fully immersed in a lucid dream.  I was in a deep, beautiful valley with lambs frolicking about.  I looked around and marvelled at the ability to be able to have a lucid dream in a matter of seconds.  I enjoyed my lucid dream...

What is the process of what I described above?  I'm going to give you a phenomenal statistic.  75% of people have an instantaneous lucid dream or an OBE within one week of using the method that I have described above.  If you were to follow exactly what I did above you might not succeed.  To be able to have an instant WILD then you must read this FREE 227 page downloadable e-book called, 'School of Out of Body Travel - A Practical Guidebook' by Michael Raduga.

Michael Raduga has been teaching this method in seminars in Russia for many years and he will tell you exactly what to do to have instant WILD's with his 227 page manual.  FREE download of the book is available from his website.

This book is nothing short of phenomenal.

Enjoy...

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## PercyLucid

Guys guys guys... this is getting out of its way.

Let's not start a fight or I will need to start to deliver infractions.

- First of all.  The user mcwillis joined on January 2010... if he would be a spammer, he would have just joined.
- The material he is advertising is free, so there is no profit for him or the author of the book through this thread.
- There is a lot of literature out there, it is true that 220 pages is a lot for just one technique, however, the technique is in there and I am sure the other pages are worth its reading for some reason.  I have not had the chance of reading it yet, but I am sure it will not be a waste.
- Maybe I am wrong and the material is not good (I have not checked it) If this ends up being some sort of scam, mcwillis will be punished to the full extend of our forum rules, but it is unlikely that after 11 months of being a member of our community, he will blow up his membership.
- I do not want to hear more complains about this, please.  Discuss about the book itself.  If you do not want to read it, move on to the next thread, but I want to remind that flaming leads to a severe punishment, so stop it.





> Advertising
> 
> You must contact the administrators and get permission before you attempt to post solicitations or advertising. Anything that appears to be advertising or solicitation will be removed immediately. This does not apply to LEGITIMATE news, user guides, or free lucid dreaming resources.



Thanks for reading.  If the material is worth it might be a nice tool for us all, so lets enjoy it.





> This e-book is FREE, so feel free to distribute it!
> Send it to all your friends!
> Post it on your sites and blogs!



Material and this thread is legit.

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## mcwillis

> Guys guys guys... this is getting out of its way.
> 
> Let's not start a fight or I will need to start to deliver infractions.
> 
> - First of all.  The user mcwillis joined on January 2010... if he would be a spammer, he would have just joined.
> - The material he is advertising is free, so there is no profit for him or the author of the book through this thread.
> - There is a lot of literature out there, it is true that 220 pages is a lot for just one technique, however, the technique is in there and I am sure the other pages are worth its reading for some reason.  I have not had the chance of reading it yet, but I am sure it will not be a waste.
> - Maybe I am wrong and the material is not good (I have not checked it) If this ends up being some sort of scan, mcwillis will be punished to the full extend of our forum rules, but it is unlikely that after 11 months of being a member of our community, he will blow up his membership.
> - I do not want to hear more complains about this, please.  Discuss about the book itself.  If you do not want to read it, move on to the next thread, but I want to remind that flaming leads to a severe punishment, so stop it.
> ...



Thank you PercyLucid,

At last someone who wants to have a serious discussion about this method.  I guarantee you if you read the whole book you will be impressed.  I consider it nothing short of phenomenal in my twenty one years of being an active student of lucid dreaming.  I bought my first DILD book twenty one years ago and my passion is such that I will be reading books on the subject for a long time to come.

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## PercyLucid

There is a lot of literature out there which is great to add to knowledge.  

To be honest, it sounds too good to be true.  I am very experienced in this topic and the only fast methods are DEILD which requires mantras and hard work, and my own made method L-DEILD which is very close to what you posted, but requires to be completed from a lucid dreaming.

It is very hard to believe, but the humans mind power is enormous, so it might be possible. Actually, I say it is possible, but I am sure it will require several days or weeks for most to master.

I will sure take a read to the juiciest parts, but I am working solely on Astral Projection right now, so I will not read it entirely... it is a long book.

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## mcwillis

> To be honest, it sounds too good to be true.  I am very experienced in this topic and the only fast methods are DEILD which requires mantras and hard work, and my own made method L-DEILD which is very close to what you posted, but requires to be completed from a lucid dreaming.
> 
> It is very hard to believe, but the humans mind power is enormous, so it might be possible.



As I said in the start of this thread Mr. Raduga's statistics from his seminars are that in their first week 75% of students have a WILD or an OBE within a minute of waking up from sleep.  I have personally reproduced this through my own practice.

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## rynkrt3

I have skimmed over this book, all the things he talks about are basically different forms of DEILD's.  Nothing special here.

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## PercyLucid

> As I said in the start of this thread Mr. Raduga's statistics from his seminars are that in their first week 75% of students have a WILD or an OBE within a minute of waking up from sleep.  I have personally reproduced this through my own practice.



That makes a huge difference.





> There is a lot of literature out there which is great to add to knowledge.  
> 
> To be honest, it sounds too good to be true.  I am very experienced in this topic and the only fast methods are DEILD which requires mantras and hard work, and my own made method L-DEILD which is very close to what you posted, but requires to be completed from a lucid dreaming.



So, I was right then.





> I have skimmed over this book, all the things he talks about are basically different forms of DEILD's.  Nothing special here.



Yes.  That is what I though from the very beginning. I will stick to my L-DEILD technique then.  However, for some people it might be worth to take a look over the book.  All free and authentic LD material is welcomed.

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## mcwillis

> I have skimmed over this book, all the things he talks about are basically different forms of DEILD's.  Nothing special here.



This method has nothing to do with DREAM EXIT as I have had good results during N-REM sleep using an alarm.  Read the book!

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## Fitz

This sounds very interesting. I'm not a very skilled lucid dreamer, nor a well-read one, but "phantom wiggling" sounds like something I have tried a bunch of times. Is it about tuning out the stimuli coming from your actual limbs and imagining your arms and legs to be a in different position? Or perhaps imagining you have an extra apendage, like a tail? Aaanyway, I'm intrigued and I'll be sure to check the book out later - when I'm not as sleepy as I am right now  :wink2:

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## mcwillis

> This sounds very interesting. I'm not a very skilled lucid dreamer, nor a well-read one, but "phantom wiggling" sounds like something I have tried a bunch of times. Is it about tuning out the stimuli coming from your actual limbs and imagining your arms and legs to be a in different position? Or perhaps imagining you have an extra apendage, like a tail? Aaanyway, I'm intrigued and I'll be sure to check the book out later - when I'm not as sleepy as I am right now



I will give you an example of this.  I woke up from sleep due to a disturbance.  I was lying on my left side so I immediately tried to wiggle my right leg as it was my uppermost leg.  I expected to be able to wiggle it up and down perhaps a few inches but instead it had a range of effortless movement of about two feet.  I wiggled my leg for five seconds.  As I didn't enter a lucid within the stated five second period I had to move onto another PRIMARY INDIRECT TECHNIQUE to have a WILD.  I chose 'Listening In' as my next indirect primary technique but as I had been in N-REM sleep in the early hours of sleep I lost consciousness and went back to sleep.

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## marwanin

nice methode,

can you give me the BEST PRIMARY technics to follow in ORDER 1st .  2nd ...??.

can I use these techniques DIRECTLY ( in waking life )

I want to use them for OBE not LD  :smiley:   ::banana::

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## Katsuno

Well I don't think you need to read the whole book...  This is a short guide to the technique and in my opinion it is enough. I did my past 2 lucid dreams with this technique even I didn't knew about it at the time (I  found out on myself to"listen in"  after waking up when I tried DEILD) The easiest way for achieving lucid dreaming or out-of-body experience | Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)

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## marwanin

*Can someone tell me how to wake up without moving ???

actually I woke up after moving and moving after waking up !!
*

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## ClearView

Marwanin, i know its not my place to say this, but you should make a thread on this instead of hijaking this thread.
However to answer your question, you have to learn to calmly fall asleep and wake up calmly. If you can have a relaxing night rest like 10 hrs, then you should be able to wake up rested, relaxed, and not moving out of sleep.

You have to almost hold your body in place.

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## lschievenin

Ok i understand..
i will give it a shot.

i just dont understand why you cant move after wake up, even to turn of your alarm, if it is not a DEILD.

You really cant move?

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## mcwillis

> nice methode,
> 
> can you give me the BEST PRIMARY technics to follow in ORDER 1st .  2nd ...??.
> 
> can I use these techniques DIRECTLY ( in waking life )
> 
> I want to use them for OBE not LD



The best indirect primary techniques for you individually can only be found out by you through practcing them after having read *how* to use them from the book.  You can boost your repertoire of techniques by adding secondary indirect techniques.  Indirect techniques are to be practiced immediately upon waking.  

Direct techniques are the same as indirect techniques but vastly different in *how* they are performed and can be used at any time thus meaning that this is not a DEILD method.  Mr. Raduga states emphatically one must have a certain level of skill and experise at practicing indirect techniques before proceeding to direct techniques.  His research has shown that ignoring this will be detrimental to your success.

You need the book!

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## mcwillis

> *Can someone tell me how to wake up without moving ???
> 
> actually I woke up after moving and moving after waking up !!
> *



This is all in the book.  Sleep researchers have found that often we wake up thinking about whatever we were thinking about before going to sleep.  Initially I thought it wold be next to impossible to wake up without immediately moving.  I would repeat gently before going to sleep that as soon as I wake I will remain completely motionless and practice the method.  Within a few days I was startled to find I would wake up and remain perfectly still allowing me to use the primary indirect techniques.

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## mcwillis

> Ok i understand..
> i will give it a shot.
> 
> i just dont understand why you cant move after wake up, even to turn of your alarm, if it is not a DEILD.
> 
> You really cant move?



Ok lets say you are good at using another WILD method and you know from experience that you always enter sleep paralysis say between 30 and 45 minutes after making the decision to keep your body perfectly still.  Now when you get to 25 minutes and you moved your body you will have wrecked your chance of entering sleep paralysis 5 minutes later and you would have to start all over again.  It's the same kind of principle.

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## mcwillis

> Marwanin, i know its not my place to say this, but you should make a thread on this instead of hijaking this thread.



Its a good question.  Again it's all in the book.

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## mcwillis

> I have skimmed over this book, all the things he talks about are basically different forms of DEILD's.  Nothing special here.



I see you didn't skim over the section on Direct Techniques that can be performed at any time of the day without having to practice them after waking from sleep.  One never learns from skimming, only reading.

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## mcwillis

> Well I don't think you need to read the whole book...  This is a short guide to the technique and in my opinion it is enough. I did my past 2 lucid dreams with this technique even I didn't knew about it at the time (I  found out on myself to"listen in"  after waking up when I tried DEILD) The easiest way for achieving lucid dreaming or out-of-body experience | Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)



Yes but you would make a lot of mistakes and have very limited success.  Remember the author has been teaching this publicly for a long time and his experience has shown him that if you don't follow his instructions you will most likely fail.  I have had to re-read the book several times as I made a lot of mistakes after reading it the first time.

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## Robot_Butler

This sounds like a cool idea.  I will have to read the book more carefully, tonight.  My initial worry is that the dream will be short and unstable, like most DEILDs.  I'm assuming the book addresses this.  I'll check out the section on direct techniques that you mentioned.

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## mcwillis

> This sounds like a cool idea.  I will have to read the book more carefully, tonight.  My initial worry is that the dream will be short and unstable, like most DEILDs.  I'm assuming the book addresses this.  I'll check out the section on direct techniques that you mentioned.



The chapters on deepening and maintaining are most comprehensive.

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## rynkrt3

> I see you didn't skim over the section on Direct Techniques that can be performed at any time of the day without having to practice them after waking from sleep.  One never learns from skimming, only reading.



Actually, I dare you to try these techniques during the day... There will be no instant Wild's EVER unless your close to passing out...

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## mcwillis

> Actually, I dare you to try these techniques during the day... There will be no instant Wild's EVER unless your close to passing out...



If you perform Indirect Techniques you can have instant WILD's like I did.  Where have I said that if you use the Direct Techniques during the day that you will have an instant WILD?  As you incorrectly posted that the method of Indirect Techniques is a DEILD I replied to marwanin's post that the same techniques can be applied at any time of the day, the important difference being *how* to apply them.  This proves that this isn't a DEILD method.  From your post it is clear that you still haven't read the book.

*School of Lucid Dreaming - Mr. Raduga & Students in Action!!!*

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## rynkrt3

> If you perform Indirect Techniques you can have instant WILD's like I did.  Where have I said that if you use the Direct Techniques during the day that you will have an instant WILD?  As you incorrectly posted that the method of Indirect Techniques is a DEILD I replied to marwanin's post that the same techniques can be applied at any time of the day, the important difference being *how* to apply them.  This proves that this isn't a DEILD method.  From your post it is clear that you still haven't read the book.
> 
> *School of Lucid Dreaming - Mr. Raduga & Students in Action!!!*




My post may be incorrect but, after looking at every one of the indirect techniques it says, immediately after waking from sleep, do not move, do not open your eyes, etc.  That basically is a DEILD.

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## mcwillis

> immediately after waking from sleep, do not move, do not open your eyes, etc.  That basically is a DEILD.



Ok so firstly we are going to have to mull over the semantics of a DEILD.  

_Quoting the Dream Guide Team of this forum on their description of DEILD's:_

_"However, if you are at the end of a REM phase you won't be able to DEILD."_

Where in the book does it say you must practice as soon as you awaken from a dream?  Mr. Raduga is referring to when you awaken at the end of a REM phase.

_Quoting the Dream Guide Team of this forum on their description of DEILD's:_
_
"In order to DEILD you have to have good dream recall. Not only so you won't forget your DEILD adventures, but also because you need to be aware enough of your dreams that you know when one has just ended. It is suggested that you have your dream recall at 10 or more dreams remembered per week before you attempt to DEILD."_

Where does Mr. Raduga mention in the book that one must cultivate dream recall for Indirect Techniques to be successful?  He doesn't because he is referring to when you awaken at the end of a REM cycle.  50% of students have a lucid dream or an obe over the course of a three day seminar like in the photo above.  Do you think they all have great dream recall?  The forum member moongrass nearly succeeded today on his first attempt because he has read the book and put it into practice.  I like discussion but your arguement is without foundation because your folly was to initially pass judgement on a book you hadn't read.

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## rynkrt3

> Ok so firstly we are going to have to mull over the semantics of a DEILD.  
> 
> _Quoting the Dream Guide Team of this forum on their description of DEILD's:_
> 
> _"However, if you are at the end of a REM phase you won't be able to DEILD."_
> 
> Where in the book does it say you must practice as soon as you awaken from a dream?  Mr. Raduga is referring to when you awaken at the end of a REM phase.
> 
> _Quoting the Dream Guide Team of this forum on their description of DEILD's:_
> ...



I have read about half of the book now.  I do see now that all of my post were based on assumption's and false knowledge.  Sorry for that mcwillis.

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## mcwillis

> I have read about half of the book now.  I do see now that all of my post were based on assumption's and false knowledge.  Sorry for that mcwillis.



You have no need to apologise to me my friend.  I have in the past made the same mistake that you have.  Peace  :smiley:

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## rynkrt3

> You have no need to apologise to me my friend.  I have in the past made the same mistake that you have.  Peace



One quick question.  If I wake up in the middle of the night and move a little, like open my eyes for just a second or maybe roll over, will the indirect techniques not work?

-Thanks  :smiley:

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## mcwillis

> One quick question.  If I wake up in the middle of the night and move a little, like open my eyes for just a second or maybe roll over, will the indirect techniques not work?
> 
> -Thanks



Mr. Raduga says if you roll over you can still seize the opportunity of using the "Forced Falling Asleep" Indirect Technique to start off a cycle of Indirect Techniques.  This can produce a result.  I find this one hard as I usually fall back to sleep.  I too am practicing  ::lol::

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## elucid

Great post Mcwillis, I just downloaded the book. Here is a website for anyone wanting to download it from:

School of Out-of-Body Travel - 1. A Practical Guidebook

Just scroll down and you should see the "Download Ebook" button.

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## mcwillis

> Great post Mcwillis, I just downloaded the book. Here is a website for anyone wanting to download it from:
> 
> School of Out-of-Body Travel - 1. A Practical Guidebook
> 
> Just scroll down and you should see the "Download Ebook" button.



Thank you for your kind words elucid.  The above link isn't to Mr. Raduga's website.  The link to his website where you can get the open source textbook and workbook is below.  And in case anyone has a problem with me putting this link here please look at the second post on this thread by an administrator of this forum board which says, "You must contact the administrators and get permission before you attempt to post solicitations or advertising. Anything that appears to be advertising or solicitation will be removed immediately. This does not apply to *LEGITIMATE* news, user guides, or *free lucid dreaming resources.*"

WEBSITE LINK

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## moongrass

Last night was 2nd time trying to use this method, I payed attention to sound than sights and all the sudden I saw a door. I focused on it and details slowly increased, I than tried to get closer to it and moved IRL. I think I forgot I was almost in a dream and thought I was having a LD about what was happening. IDK, I think I just need to remind myself what I'm doing and focus more. Still awesome for a method that is completely new to me and on the second night.

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## mcwillis

> Last night was 2nd time trying to use this method, I payed attention to sound than sights and all the sudden I saw a door. I focused on it and details slowly increased, I than tried to get closer to it and moved IRL. I think I forgot I was almost in a dream and thought I was having a LD about what was happening. IDK, I think I just need to remind myself what I'm doing and focus more. Still awesome for a method that is completely new to me and on the second night.



Awesome!

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## Snowboy

I think I can get WILDs pretty quickly, although not that quickly. I will check out the book as soon as I can.  :wink2: 





> Last night was 2nd time trying to use this method, I payed attention to sound than sights and all the sudden I saw a door. I focused on it and details slowly increased, I than tried to get closer to it and moved IRL. I think I forgot I was almost in a dream and thought I was having a LD about what was happening. IDK, I think I just need to remind myself what I'm doing and focus more. Still awesome for a method that is completely new to me and on the second night.



Oh, I hate those. You have to move with your mind, which is really weird, especially if you don't see anything. Just wait for the dream to come in a bit more.

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## moongrass

yup, thanks. I'm gonna try again tonight.

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## 44CalibreSunlight

Reading this right now; will definitely post with opinions/experiences in time. Thanks mcwillis!

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## mrfries

²
Hopefully this will help me achieve my first lucid dream.

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## MasterMind

i just read on a non lucid dream forum and a guy said that he had heard weird sounds, zzz and mm sounds right BEFORE he fall sleep and continued to listen to the sounds, but they got to loud and he wanted to get up but he could not move a muscle and he asked what had happend to him. He did listening in to sleep paralysis!  ::o:

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## mcwillis

> i just read on a non lucid dream forum and a guy said that he had heard weird sounds, zzz and mm sounds right BEFORE he fall sleep and continued to listen to the sounds, but they got to loud and he wanted to get up but he could not move a muscle and he asked what had happend to him. He did listening in to sleep paralysis!



If this naturally happened before sleep at night rather than WBTB then he is fortunate as the vast majority of us can't attain sleep paralysis at night, only in the morning.  Having said that Mr. Raduga has said that when one masters Indirect Techniaues one can then move onto the much harder practice of Direct Techniques which can be used before bed and WILD's at night can become possible but this can take time to achieve.  Whereas practicing Indirect Techniques AFTER sleep brings results quickly and easily.

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## mcwillis

> Reading this right now; will definitely post with opinions/experiences in time. Thanks mcwillis!



You are Welocme!  If you follow the books instructions to the letter and not make the common mistakes most of us will at this method you should have experiences to report back with.

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## mcwillis

> ²
> Hopefully this will help me achieve my first lucid dream.



If you follow the books instructions then Mr. Raduga virtually guarantees you success!

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## whitemagician91

Hi,  :smiley:  I read this book yesterday and practiced it. However, I don't know how not to move as soon as I wake up. And do you need to practice indirect techniques independently before doing WILD? can you share a scheldule to practice them and may be some few tips to succeed with this method?

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## Ketsuyume

This may sound strange but I actually really like the fact that the E-book is free but the hard copies are "overpriced."  That way, anyone who has the money and feels like they want to support this guy can buy the book down the road and add it to their collection. He most definitely deserves it, for offering all the words in his book free of charge.

I'm just DLed this and I'm going to begin reading it today. Much thanks for sharing this resource with us.

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## mcwillis

> Hi,  I read this book yesterday and practiced it. However, I don't know how not to move as soon as I wake up. And do you need to practice indirect techniques independently before doing WILD? can you share a scheldule to practice them and may be some few tips to succeed with this method?



Quoting Mr. Raduga from the textbook:

"Alongside remembering the phase immediately upon waking, another important requirement is awakening without moving, which is difficult since many people wake up and move.  Upon awakening, scratching, stretching, opening the eyes, and listening to real sounds should be avoided. Any real movement or perception will very quickly disintegrate the intermediate state and introduce reality, the activation of the mind and its connection to the sensory organs. At first, awakening without moving seems difficult or even impossible. However, it has been proven that this is remedied for through active attempts and the desire to achieve set goals. People often claim that they cannot awaken without moving, that it’s an impossible experience. However, after several attempts, it will happen, and it will occur more and more frequently with practice.  Thus, if there is difficulty in awakening without movement, do not despair, just keep trying. Sooner or later, the body will yield to the practice, and everything will happen smoothly."

I found it works by saying before going to sleep that I will remain perfectly still when I wake up.  As soon as you wake up and you haven't moved run through a cycle of 2-5 primary and secondary Indirect Techniques for 3-5 seconds each.  If nothing occurs do another cycle.  He suggests that if after four cycles you don't succeed to go back to sleep and try again later.

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## mcwillis

> This may sound strange but I actually really like the fact that the E-book is free but the hard copies are "overpriced."  That way, anyone who has the money and feels like they want to support this guy can buy the book down the road and add it to their collection. He most definitely deserves it, for offering all the words in his book free of charge.
> 
> I'm just DLed this and I'm going to begin reading it today. Much thanks for sharing this resource with us.



Yes it shows that Mr. Raduga is a good man by giving us free of charge the fruits of all of his hard work.

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## Mzzkc

Read through the pertinent stuff, but didn't learn anything new. He's essentially teaching people DEILD while providing a general use WILD tool-kit most people have to develop on their own. Not a bad resource, but nothing particularly groundbreaking. 

And before anyone argues the point that these aren't DEILDs: put plainly and simply, DEILDs are WILDs that one does immediately upon waking; where one is in any given cycle doesn't particularly matter.

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## MasterMind

When I first saw this I immediately  thought it was scam, but then I read it because it was free and that could not hurt anyone. When I read it I thought it was just a DEILD and it is, but much better explained than anywhere else and with techniques and much more detail to each step of the first 10 seconds after awakening. I was really concerned of the conscious awakening part and thought it was impossible, but I succeded the FIRST night and when I woke up I heard some ringing in my ears and listened to that then outside noicies disturbed me so I went to  unconscious sleep. But the NEXT night I did the same but without getting disturbed and I got a lucid dream! Sorry I doubted you mcwillis and thank you for informing me this book!

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## Munstaan

for the dudes who sorta don't know what he's talking about he's talking about like sorta twitching when ur going into WILD. so basically a FILD but renamed. am i not correct?

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## mcwillis

> Read through the pertinent stuff, but didn't learn anything new.  And before anyone argues the point that these aren't DEILDs: put plainly and simply, DEILDs are WILDs that one does immediately upon waking; where one is in any given cycle doesn't particularly matter.



Yet again we are going to have to mull over the semantics of a DEILD because it seems that people don't understand the basics.  One doesn't learn from skimming books, only reading them.

Quoting the Dream Guide Team of this forum on their description of DEILD's:

"However, if you are at the end of a REM phase you won't be able to DEILD."

Where in the book does it say you must practice as soon as you awaken from a dream? Mr. Raduga is referring to when you awaken at the end of a REM phase.

Quoting the Dream Guide Team of this forum on their description of DEILD's:

"In order to DEILD you have to have good dream recall. Not only so you won't forget your DEILD adventures, but also because you need to be aware enough of your dreams that you know when one has just ended. It is suggested that you have your dream recall at 10 or more dreams remembered per week before you attempt to DEILD."

Where does Mr. Raduga mention in the book that one must cultivate dream recall for Indirect Techniques to be successful? He doesn't because he is referring to when you awaken at the end of a REM cycle. 50% of students have a lucid dream or an obe over the course of a three day seminar like in the photo above. Do you think they all have great dream recall? Statistically most of them would have a very low level of dream recall.





> Read through the pertinent stuff, but didn't learn anything new. He's essentially teaching people DEILD while providing a general use WILD tool-kit most people have to develop on their own. Not a bad resource, but nothing particularly groundbreaking.



I'm sure we would be interested to know your techniques for having WILD's in less than a minute.

----------


## mcwillis

> for the dudes who sorta don't know what he's talking about he's talking about like sorta twitching when ur going into WILD. so basically a FILD but renamed. am i not correct?



You also don't know what your talking about as you haven't read either the textbook or the workbook.  This isn't remotely anything like FILD, find a dictionary and look up the word phantom.  This is open source information that you can have in seconds.  What ever happened to good old fashioned inquisitiveness and learning.

----------


## mcwillis

> When I first saw this I immediately  thought it was scam, but then I read it because it was free and that could not hurt anyone. When I read it I thought it was just a DEILD and it is, but much better explained than anywhere else and with techniques and much more detail to each step of the first 10 seconds after awakening. I was really concerned of the conscious awakening part and thought it was impossible, but I succeded the FIRST night and when I woke up I heard some ringing in my ears and listened to that then outside noicies disturbed me so I went to  unconscious sleep. But the NEXT night I did the same but without getting disturbed and I got a lucid dream! Sorry I doubted you mcwillis and thank you for informing me this book!



*Congratulations!*  You put in the effort of reading the book, set a goal with defined actions and had a lucid dream.

Yet again we are going to have to mull over the semantics of a DEILD because it seems that people don't understand the basics.

Quoting the Dream Guide Team of this forum on their description of DEILD's:

"However, if you are at the end of a REM phase you won't be able to DEILD."

Where in the book does it say you must practice as soon as you awaken from a dream? Mr. Raduga is referring to when you awaken at the end of a REM phase.

Quoting the Dream Guide Team of this forum on their description of DEILD's:

"In order to DEILD you have to have good dream recall. Not only so you won't forget your DEILD adventures, but also because you need to be aware enough of your dreams that you know when one has just ended. It is suggested that you have your dream recall at 10 or more dreams remembered per week before you attempt to DEILD."

Where does Mr. Raduga mention in the book that one must cultivate dream recall for Indirect Techniques to be successful? He doesn't because he is referring to when you awaken at the end of a REM cycle. 50% of students have a lucid dream or an obe over the course of a three day seminar like in the photo above. Do you think they all have great dream recall? Statistically most of them would have a very low level of dream recall.

----------


## Katsuno

I read the book once  and I'm reading again to do the tasks now, too.I just have to say: It's AMAZING! I thought I already knew almost everything about conscious entering a dream because I read almost anything related to it. But after the first chapters I realized how much I've been missing (Forum tutorials are WAY to short so you really can understand them). For Example I always tried Wild in the evening because I thought I could never wake up conscious. I'm now trying the tasks and already got 2 short lucids from the indirect techniques (AND 1 Dild because I thought of the book in my dream  :tongue2: ). Thank you very much for sharing the information about the book!

----------


## Mzzkc

> Yet again we are going to have to mull over the semantics of a DEILD because it seems that people don't understand the basics.  One doesn't learn from skimming books, only reading them.
> 
> Quoting the Dream Guide Team of this forum on their description of DEILD's:
> 
> "However, if you are at the end of a REM phase you won't be able to DEILD."
> 
> Where in the book does it say you must practice as soon as you awaken from a dream? Mr. Raduga is referring to when you awaken at the end of a REM phase.
> 
> Quoting the Dream Guide Team of this forum on their description of DEILD's:
> ...



Derp. 

I already read that post, and strongly disagreed with it on the premise that the DGT is _not_ the end-all-be-all decider of technique definitions. One, I've had DEILDs at the end of REM, so that invalidates the first point by counter-example. And two, I've found recall isn't terribly necessary for lucid dreaming as a whole. It's incredibly easy to recall lucids compared to normal dreams, and as long as the intent is there productive things can happen. _Including_ recognizing end-of-cycle wake-ups. I know that's true because I always remember my wake-ups each night even if I don't recall any dreams.

Don't be so quick to make decisions and judgments based on the insights of others.

And _please_ don't post the shame shitty argument again. You're taking up valuable internets.





> I'm sure we would be interested to know your techniques for having WILD's in less than a minute.



Sure, it's called a DEILD, which is what this guy is teaching. The fact that there's been so many results is a testament to how he presents it more than anything else.

I for one know the stuff he's teaching will work, because I've successfully utilized most of the transitioning techniques in there myself. Again, it's a good resource, but to call this something other than DEILD is silly.

----------


## MasterMind

I don't know if it is a DEILD or not, but it doesn't matter it's a lucid dream induction technique that works for me that is all that matters. 

I am going to try this tonight again  :wink2:  

Sweet dreams!

But I only have one question. Mr Raduga is mainly talking about how to induce a phase like an OBE and not lucid dreams, he does mention lucid dream once though.
But what phase is a lucid dream then?

----------


## mcwillis

> But I only have one question. Mr Raduga is mainly talking about how to induce a phase like an OBE and not lucid dreams, he does mention lucid dream once though.
> But what phase is a lucid dream then?



Mr. Raduga mentions lucid dreams many times.  He uses the term 'The Phase' to encompass the phenomenon of Astral Projection, Out of Body Experience and Lucid Dreaming.

I'm going to be doing it again tomorrow morning.  Once again congratulations on having a lucid dream on your 2nd day of practice  :smiley:

----------


## mcwillis

> I already read that post, and strongly disagreed with it on the premise that the DGT is _not_ the end-all-be-all decider of technique definitions. One, I've had DEILDs at the end of REM, so that invalidates the first point by counter-example.



I have posted that I have had success with this in non REM sleep which means that it cannot be a DEILD method.  Indirect Techniques are exactly the same as Direct techniques.  If Direct Techniques can be used at any time of the day then this illustrates that this isn't  a DEILD method.  If you can post a link for a DEILD method from this forum that can be used at any time of the day without the need to exit sleep then I will apolgise to you.





> And two, I've found recall isn't terribly necessary for lucid dreaming as a whole.



This may be the case for you but for the vast majority of people it is absolutely crucial to develop dream recall.  Because of this fact DEILD requires training to succeed.  Explain to me why 50% of Mr. Raduga's students have an OBE or lucid within three days of practice without any prior dream training?





> Don't be so quick to make decisions and judgments based on the insights of others.



I don't as I have been researching this subject for twenty one years by experts in this field.





> And _please_ don't post the shame shitty argument again. You're taking up valuable internets.



I will when you clearly haven't read this thread properly or the books.  Your vulgar language only serves to illustrate your immaturity and lack of knowledge concerning the subject.





> I for one know the stuff he's teaching will work, because I've successfully utilized most of the transitioning techniques in there myself. Again, it's a good resource, but to call this something other than DEILD is silly.



Then explain to me how I was able to have success during non REM sleep?

----------


## zhineTech

i had read this book a while ago. i think its great and find it irritating that so many people are posting what amounts to "Yeah its the same ole crap, i've seen it before, why bother?" Jaded lucid dreamers, who would have thought it?

Most of it is basically a detailed course on getting OBEs with a slew of techniques that are different from every other OBE book I have read. The way he lays it out and breaks it down makes it pretty clear and easy to follow.

as mentioned most of the techniques are based upon staying still while awakening from sleep. he calls them 'indirect techniques.' one would not have to be dreaming and for most of them one doesn't have to do any sort of dream re-entry or visualizations. they are very 'mental-physical' techniques aimed at body separation and inducing OBE's, which are also useful for lucid dreaming.

i consider it different from your standard DEILD in that the DREAM EXIT part is not necessary, though it is wasteful to split hairs over this, and one could conceivably simply call them variations. I also consider many of the techniques he talks about to be variations of FILD's, basically the perceived tiny motion of body parts until separation.

my greatest issue with these techniques is that i could never really wake up without moving, though i tried to practice it and condition myself. i plan on re-reading and re-trying some of these in the near future however.

----------


## Ketsuyume

It's very amusing watch people with a common goal get caught up in a silly semantics argument.

----------


## mcwillis

> It's very amusing watch people with a common goal get caught up in a silly semantics argument.



I sometimes find it amusing too.  I consider lucid dreaming an art that requires strict attention to detail and must be approached with a scientific attitude.  Ignoring these principles is the reason why there are so many threads and posts on this forum concerning failure.  It is clear that a lot of new members fail on their first few attempts because of a lack of knowledge of the dry, hard scientific facts for achieving lucidity whilst dreaming.  However, forum fighting is counterproductive when two individuals won't back down!

----------


## Mzzkc

> I have posted that I have had success with this in non REM sleep which means that it cannot be a DEILD method.  Indirect Techniques are exactly the same as Direct techniques.  If Direct Techniques can be used at any time of the day then this illustrates that this isn't  a DEILD method.  If you can post a link for a DEILD method from this forum that can be used at any time of the day without the need to exit sleep then I will apolgise to you.



As I've said before, the phase of sleep doesn't particularly matter, nor does reentry, or the state consciousness before waking. I'll refer you to the first post I made on this thread for my main case, which you've only served to validate. 

But since there's a chance you'll have trouble connecting two and two, the definition I gave applies to everything the author recommends beginners start with. Hence he's teaching DEILD.

The transitional techniques taught are the proverbial WILD tool-kit, which can be applied in any WILD attempt.

I mean, I'm surprised this isn't blatantly obvious.

Edit: Also, boom. I use that for DEILD, but it works equally well for your standard WILD. Or, if you thinks that's too conceited of me: this also works for DEILDs.





> This may be the case for you but for the vast majority of people it is absolutely crucial to develop dream recall.  Because of this fact DEILD requires training to succeed.  Explain to me why 50% of Mr. Raduga's students have an OBE or lucid within three days of practice without any prior dream training?



Because lucids are easy to remember, DEILD is a simple and effective technique for beginners (especially with a tool-kit), and he teaches it well?

Again, the pattern is pretty clear.





> I don't as I have been researching this subject for twenty one years by experts in this field.



You've just proven the point I was making.





> I will when you clearly haven't read this thread properly or the books.



The hypocrisy here is actually kinda funny.





> Your vulgar language only serves to illustrate your immaturity and lack of knowledge concerning the subject.



I hoped it'd serve to point our how ridiculous it is to consecutively copy/paste the same poorly formed argument three times while simultaneously failing to acknowledge and address any points made.





> Then explain to me how I was able to have success during non REM sleep?



I've addressed this. No need to repeat myself, right?





> It's very amusing watch people with a common goal get caught up in a silly semantics argument.



Seriously, this is hilarious. ^.^

----------


## mcwillis

> As I've said before, the phase of sleep doesn't particularly matter.



You can't have a DEILD in non REM sleep.  You clearly don't understand that you can only dream in REM sleep.





> Because lucids are easy to remember.



How can you have lucid dreams if you can't remember your dreams in the first place.  Naturally occuring lucid dreams without any prior training or desire to have them is rare.  Another fact that you are unaware of.  To prove my point ask ten elderly people how many lucid dreams they have had in their lives.  Many will ask you this question, "What's a lucid dream?"





> Actually, it serves to point our how ridiculous it is to consecutively copy/paste the same poorly formed argument three times while simultaneously failing to acknowledge and address any points made.



I have acknowledged all of your points and addressed them with facts, not assumption or hearsay.





> Edit: Also, boom. I use that for DEILD, but it works equally well for your standard WILD. Or, if you thinks that's too conceited of me: this also works for DEILDs.



Your BOOM thread title is:  Mzzkc's Comprehensive WILD Guide.  And Billybob's tutorial is for WILD's too and not DEILD's.





> Seriously, this is hilarious.



The hilarity is always pointing at the one who is making a fool of himself.  You clearly can't construct valid arguments without backing them up so I am not saying anymore on the matter.

----------


## mikeac

> You can't have a DEILD in non REM sleep.  You clearly don't understand that you can only dream in REM sleep.
> 
> *When you DEILD, you are awake.   You don't need to be in REM to dream.  You said yourself that this technique worked in NREM sleep while using an alarm which is basically CAN-WILDing, an alternative to DEILD.
> 
> "A dream is a succession of images, sounds or emotions that the mind experiences during sleep."*
> 
> How can you have lucid dreams if you can't remember your dreams in the first place.  Naturally occuring lucid dreams without any prior training or desire to have them is rare.  Another fact that you are unaware of.  To prove my point ask ten elderly people how many lucid dreams they have had in their lives.  Many will ask you this question, "What's a lucid dream?"
> 
> *Lucid dreams are, in fact, much easier to remember.  Since you are actually in control of the dream and you are aware that you are dreaming, it is easier to remember, regardless of whether or not you regularly remember your non-lucid dreams.  If you cannot remember your dreams, you should work on that before lucid dreaming anyways.*



DEILD is essentially a WILD after ending a dream.  I'll take Mzzkc's definition of WILDing and add one word to it.

"To fall BACK asleep, into a dream state, while retaining consciousness."

I think the book is pretty good though.  He's just basically teaching WILD with an alternative form of DEILD.  Didn't read all of it though. 

EDIT 2:
Look up CrazyInsane's WILD tutorial (CAN-WILD).  He even says it uses the same idea of DEILD, but it isn't Dream Exit.

----------


## mcwillis

> DEILD is essentially a WILD after ending a dream.  I'll take Mzzkc's definition of WILDing and add one word to it.
> 
> "To fall BACK asleep, into a dream state, while retaining consciousness."
> 
> I think the book is pretty good though.  He's just basically teaching WILD with an alternative form of DEILD.  Didn't read all of it though. 
> 
> EDIT:
> Oh yeah, forgot to say.  DEILD isn't particularly hard to learn.  It doesn't require 226 pages of reading.



Yes when one has a DEILD or WILD it is not done in sleep, REM sleep or N-REM sleep.  By it's very definition sleep is a natural periodic suspension of consciousness.  By me saying it worked in N-REM sleep I should have said it worked during two intervals of N-REM so thankyou for pointing out to me that I must be far more mindful of my use of language and not to be so hasty when someone enrages me.  I have also learnt today that research at universities in recent years have discovered that we do definately dream in N-REM sleep.  I am now the wiser for that and has opened a wider channel for study.  My point right from the start, and still is, that this method is not about dream exit initiated lucid dreams, it is about pure WILD's, which they are as it is not necessary at all to have exited a dream to succeed.  By its very definition a DEILD is saying that one has a lucid dream after immediately exiting a dream. 

Lucid dreams are not always easy to remember.  I can recall several instances where I have remembered having a lucid dream several days after having that lucid dream.  This made me realise that I had to take my dream recall training far more seriously.  The average person has very poor dream recall which is why for the average person they must cultivate dream recall to be successful with DEILD's.  The average person couldn't have a DEILD in a few days as they won't remember having a dream that they have just exited from.  If you ask the average person how many dreams they usually have every night they will say none.  Mr. Raduga's method does not require any dream recall training at all as it is a method of having WILD's.

I think the book is far, far better than pretty good.  Two have us have said that we have had a WILD in a matter of seconds within three days and someone else very close to achieving one.  As I said from the start, that is phenomenal.

----------


## Mzzkc

> You can't have a DEILD in non REM sleep.  You clearly don't understand that you can only dream in REM sleep.



I'm glad you already caught yourself on this one.





> How can you have lucid dreams if you can't remember your dreams in the first place.  Naturally occuring lucid dreams without any prior training or desire to have them is rare.  Another fact that you are unaware of.  To prove my point ask ten elderly people how many lucid dreams they have had in their lives.  Many will ask you this question, "What's a lucid dream?"



Lucids dreams are exponentially easy to remember compared to normal dreams. I don't know the exact science behind it (still trying to find someone who does), but the activation of the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex probably has a lot to do with it. Since it _does_ play a large role in enabling working memory. 

And I don't know how we got on the topic of "naturally occurring lucid dreams" being rare. I thought we were talking about groups of students who deeply desired LDs and were given three days of training.






> I have acknowledged all of your points and addressed them with facts, not assumption or hearsay.



You haven't addressed my main point yet (and you've skimmed over most of the others I've made). Which you've already agreed with, but refuse to admit. Namely, that the basic WILD method he teaches is as close to DEILD as it gets and the tool-kit of techniques he offers can be applied to any WILD. Fundamentally, that's what the book offers as far as WILDs go.





> Your BOOM thread title is:  Mzzkc's Comprehensive WILD Guide.  And Billybob's tutorial is for WILD's too and not DEILD's.



Given that only two sets of LDs exist, DILDs and WILDs.

DEILDs can only be WILDs.
Therefore, if a technique can be applied to WILD, then the same technique can be applied to DEILD.

"How to WILD" is a technique that can be applied to WILD.
Therefore, "How to WILD" is a a technique that can be applied to DEILD.
QED





> The hilarity is always pointing at the one who is making a fool of himself.  You clearly can't construct valid arguments without backing them up so I am not saying anymore on the matter.



Ouch, your personal attacks have cut me pretty deep, bro. I clearly have no choice but to bow before your superior argumentative abilities.

----------


## whitemagician91

hehe, let's not waste time for arguing about this any more. Why don't you, experiened lucid dreamers, give it a try and see if it works, then come back to evaluate your point? 

personally, I found it's hard to "conscious awakening" without alarm, or not open my eyes upon awakening. Guest I should practice more.

----------


## Mzzkc

Oh, they work just fine. I had 3 WILDs earlier today, during an afternoon nap, two of which used methods presented in the book (I would classify both as DEILDs). I don't think this has really been an argument on whether or not the techniques taught in the book work (they do), it's more of a semantic disagreement, which I feel is important to get out in the open so that proper associations can be made and progress can occur.

Edit: I realize that last sentence was poorly written, as it does not convey my meaning. To rephrase, I feel that placing techniques and methods in their proper sets allows for greater expansion of those tools. Not only do they gain a firm identity and basis for understanding, but they also benefit from every insight learned and all previous work accomplished in that branch of study. Pinning down fundamentals isn't harmful to progress, in fact, it's necessary to prevent needless traversals of a well worn evolutionary path.

----------


## mcwillis

> personally, I found it's hard to "conscious awakening" without alarm, or not open my eyes upon awakening. Guest I should practice more.



From his experience of teaching this to others Mr. Raduga says that using an alarm reduces your chance of success by 50-75%.  As he says, if you have a strong intent before going to sleep and practice you will wake up without movement.  The reason for this is that too much external stimuli such as the noise from an alarm alters our state of mind too drastically upon awakening.  When I first started out I did use a custom made alarm with a duration of ten seconds and a voice recording saying, 'Dont move'.  It worked perfectly for waking without moving but the shock was too much so I trained myself to awaken without moving.

----------


## Mzzkc

> From his experience of teaching this to others Mr. Raduga says that using an alarm reduces your chance of success by 50-75%.  As he says, if you have a strong intent before going to sleep and practice you will wake up without movement.  The reason for this is that too much external stimuli such as the noise from an alarm alters our state of mind too drastically upon awakening.  When I first started out I did use a custom made alarm with a duration of ten seconds and a voive recording saying, 'Dont move'.  It worked perfectly for waking without moving but the shock was too much so I trained myself to wake without moving.



I can reciprocate this from my own experiences. Strong intent before sleeping was how I first trained myself to recognize nightly awakenings, and I've successfully used that for a variety of other things including waking without moving. Furthermore, I've personally never had success using any sort of alarm (for the reason mcwillis has pointed out), so I'm inclined to agree natural awakenings are the way to go.

----------


## MasterMind

Ok I did not have a lucid dream on my third attempt =(
But this night I just fell asleep without using affirmations just to see if I still would wake up during the night, but I didn't. The next night I am going to start using affirmations again and hopefully I wake up this time.

----------


## moongrass

no, you do not physically move at all, you just "try" to move something with your mind. like you arm. FILD you have to actually move.

----------


## DukeDreamWalker

I have read two of Raduga's books and found them to be enlightening.  In fact I continue to use some of his "indirect techniques" and find success most of the time I use them.

This DREAM VIEWS forum provides a wonderful opportunity for those who seek to gain greater understanding and insight in developing their lucid dream skills.  I have always firmly believed the idiom: "search all things, hold fast to that which is good".  And that's why we are here - to learn and grow to advance and progress and to develop our abilities by discovering that which is useful.

Unfortunately there are those that would spend their time splitting hairs over what they feel to be ill defined terminology.  Now, perhaps we can move on and build up and contribute rather than tear down and destroy...

----------


## Mzzkc

> Unfortunately there are those that would spend their time splitting hairs over what they feel to be ill defined terminology.  Now, perhaps we can move on and build up and contribute rather than tear down and destroy...



Yeah! 

Frak those guys!

Them and their destruction.

----------


## BridgetJones09

I like the techniques suggested on the book, but Mr. Raduga focuses too much on OBE, which I am not interested in, and doesn't say how to, after applying some tecnique/s succesfuly, skip OBE and directly LD instead. Can someone give me a hint???

I'll post one indirect technique as an example:





> PHANTOM WIGGLING (MOVEMENT)
> *Testing Individual Effectiveness*
> 
> Immediately after waking from sleep, remain motionless,
> eyes closed. Try to wiggle a part of the body for 3 to 5 seconds,
> but without using any muscles. If nothing moves during the
> attempt, try a different technique. If a sensation of wiggling
> occurs, even in the slightest, continue to employ the technique,
> striving to increase the range of movement as much as possible.
> ...



Good. Now I have this problem. _As soon as_ I awake, I open my eyes and start moving in bed, to change positions and not get stiff. How I prevent myself from doing this? I doing unconscously. When I remember I shouldn't have moved or opened my eyes it is too late.  :Bang head:  Some idea?

Sorry for the long winded post. :Oops: 

Thanks!

----------


## mcwillis

> I like the techniques suggested on the book, but Mr. Raduga focuses too much on OBE, which I am not interested in, and doesn't say how to, after applying some tecnique/s succesfuly, skip OBE and directly LD instead. Can someone give me a hint???



Im not interested in OBE's either.  My lucid dreams just happen as described in my experience at the start of this thread.  The phantom wiggling technique that you cppied into your post says, "one momentarily finds oneself somehow in the phase".  That means that you may find yourself in a lucid dream or an OBE.





> Good. Now I have this problem. _As soon as_ I awake, I open my eyes and start moving in bed, to change positions and not get stiff. How I prevent myself from doing this? Some idea?



I may be wrong about this but it seems from what you have said that you haven't read up to page 40 as that is where the instructions for not moving upon awakening are.  If you haven't read the textbook yet I would strongly suggest not skipping through the book to page 40 as you will miss vital information that will save you from making mistakes that will arrest your progress.

----------


## Sarge_Maximus2

> Im not interested in OBE's either.  My lucid dreams just happen as described in my experience at the start of this thread.  The phantom wiggling technique that you cppied into your post says, "one momentarily finds oneself somehow in the phase".  That means that you may find yourself in a lucid dream or an OBE.
> 
> 
> 
> I may be wrong about this but it seems from what you have said that you haven't read up to page 40 as that is where the instructions for not moving upon awakening are.  If you haven't read the textbook yet I would strongly suggest not skipping through the book to page 40 as you will miss vital information that will save you from making mistakes that will arrest your progress.



First of all let me thank you for opening a thread about this. After seeing your post in "CrazyInsane's WILD Tutorial" I immediately downloaded the guide and began reading. I've been practicing and have come across an interesting fact: my most common form of 'phasing' is the movement one. I feel like I'm spinning or (as was the case last-night) swinging in a hammock. I've had this seemingly random phenomenon affect me variously throughout my life, mostly when I am about to go to sleep.
My question, however, is this: how do you keep from losing consciousness? In the instance last night, where I was swinging in an imaginary hammock, I was able to make it swing farther and farther out, but woke up later when my alarm went off. Is there a section of the book that explains this? (I do not wish to read ahead if I don't have to, as I'm only in the part about the different indirect techniques.) 
Anyhow, you can imagine my excitement but it seems too tricky and I am simply of the belief that I don't understand it fully, so any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

----------


## mcwillis

It seems from your description that you have achieved the 'free floating state of mind' Mr. Raduga describes that is necessary for the more difficult Direct Techniques.  As he vehemently opposes anyone practicing Direct Techniques until one has mastered Indirect Techniques I would suggest doing what he advises.  However, you may not have to start with Indirect Techniques as it seems that you can enter the 'free floating state of mind' easily.  If you want my opinion I would say it would be far better to follow his advice and try Indirect Techniques for a while, especially if you haven't had any lucids or full OBE's yet whilst experiencing the phenomena you have described.  The reason why you are falling asleep is because you are experiencing this phenomena too passively.

Thanks for the thanks!

----------


## mcwillis

I am reading the workbook for the fourth time as I have been making mistakes and am analysing my actions to see where I am going wrong; and finding the answers!  Please note it is the workbook and not the textbook.  I am going to paste below an extract from the chapter entitled 'Extremely Important Advice'.

Quoting Mr. Raduga:

"If you veer off the path I have shown you, you'll be either completely depriving yourself of a rewarding experience, or at least making such an experience a very rare event. I often have to fight with one very strange aspect of human psychology: the desire to do things in one's own way in a field that one knows nothing about. I've done nearly everything I can: I've tested and described everything exactly, you can be quite sure that it will work. But then I'll go to talk with another practitioner, and it suddenly turns out that nothing is working for him. At least, that's what he says.
But once he starts to tell you what he did and how he did it, you immediately hear that he did exactly what you've told him dozens of times not to do. It turns out that he's done everything backwards. And if steps were taken in the right direction, then everything was done half-way, the wrong way, or no way, and the most fundamental elements were given no more than a passing try. Of course, it doesn't always turn out like that. It only does when someone is having problems with his practice. If there are no problems, that means that he's doing everything just as he was told.
And so, friend, I beg you to follow all of the instructions exactly. You're guaranteed to get a result. The more correctly you perform the techniques, the quicker the results will come. Some people get results during their first attempts.
But let's take a look at the most common mistake. I've already mentioned more than once here that one's practice should start only from the indirect techniques, that is techniques performed upon awakening. I've taught this phenomenon to thousands of people personally, and to a countless number through my books. I'm not saying that that's where you need to start just to have something to say. Indirect techniques are simply the easiest and most effective ones. For some reason, every second student will get some irresistible urge to buck my arguments and start from the hardest techniques: the direct ones, which are performed without accompanying sleep.
They usually tell me that direct techniques deliver more controllability. Yes, they do. And therein lies the problem. That's exactly why novices are unsuccessful with them, because beginners try to control them. In the section on direct techniques, you'll learn how they need to be performed in the opposite way - it is necessary to deliberately give up control over them and your conscious awareness for a certain period of time. And this is much more difficult than awakening and then entering the phase within a few moments.
Based on outward appearances, direct techniques seem preferable, which in and of itself draws people to them. However, indirect techniques need to be mastered first before trying anything else. Friend, such a desire will surely arise within you as well. But keep one thing in mind: indirect techniques work for everyone, while direct techniques are fraught with difficulty, even for those with much experience, let alone for a novice who has yet to learn the phenomenon from the inside out.
Starting from direct techniques is the same as walking into a weight-room for the first time in your life and trying to bench-press 500 pounds. No sane person would even think about doing that. It's simply unrealistic. It's first necessary to train for a certain period of time, which requires starting out from light weights. If the bench-press is a clear analogy, then direct techniques are a very near equivalent to those 400 pounds - lifting them would obviously be possible only after spending months working out, and require an incredible amount of strength. Yet the phase can be yours in literally a couple of days... 
Yes, some people do have a predisposition for direct techniques, especially women. But whenever I talk about such predisposition, almost everyone thinks that I'm talking about them. You can forget about it. First learn what kind of phenomenon this is by performing specific actions upon awakening, and then - and only then - start experiments with direct techniques.
What's more, a lot of people may think that if they try both direct and indirect techniques simultaneously, then they will get, for example, guaranteed practice upon awakening, and sure practice with direct techniques before falling asleep. I'm afraid I'll have to disappoint you, and even warn you. You are not a bottomless well of energy and strength. If you've been exhausting yourself with direct techniques all evening, then you'll have no energy or strength left to do anything correctly or effectively upon awakening. Based on my substantial observational data, I can categorically state that such an approach decreases the probability of having a successful experience by 50 to 80 percent.
The situation is even more ridiculous when a person attempting direct techniques has already suffered a fiasco with indirect techniques due to making mistakes, after having worked on them for say several weeks. I would like to emphasize that such a fiasco is possible only in the face of major mistakes and misunderstandings. And so, having tripped up over what is easiest, the unfortunate practitioner decides to move on to direct techniques - the hardest ones. Where's the logic? Being unable to do the easiest things, do you think that you will suddenly be able to do the hardest things? Now really? It's just the other way around! If you are still unable to take your conscious awareness out of your body upon awakening, then the one thing you have left to consider is becoming conscious while dreaming - but don't even think about direct techniques.
And so don't fiddle around, put all of your effort from the beginning into actions performed upon awakening - into the universal indirect techniques.
(Sadly, even after this being emphasized so much, a significant proportion of readers will nevertheless throw these warnings out the window and begin to torture themselves with direct techniques...)

Another widespread problem is incomplete performance of the techniques. No less than 75% of practitioners who are learning using my techniques suffer from this. It's interesting to note that 75% of them do so deliberately. Friend, you'll see later on that you need not perform superhuman feats in order to achieve the phase state. As far as the indirect techniques are concerned, you just need perform a simple algorithm of actions upon awakening. Just complete everything that you are required to do in full. And perform everything just as it is described.
Let's observe a few examples of incomplete performance of the techniques. We'll start with cycles of indirect techniques - the one universal phase entrance technique-based technology. It entails the completion, upon awakening, of no less than 4 cycles of techniques for a total of 9-15 seconds each, until a technique works. For some reason, many think that the proscribed minimum of 4 cycles does not apply to them. And so they do 1 or 2 cycles.... Like the time at one of my seminars when two men of about the same age sat next to each-other, both in the neighborhood of 45 years old. This was the second session, and they spoke about what they had been doing, and how things were going for them. The first man said that he had started by doing 2 cycles during one attempt, but then seeing as nothing was working, he decided to stop right there, even though I had said the previous afternoon to do 4 cycles. I had repeated it again and again... The second gentleman had also started by doing two cycles and nothing worked for him either. But he then started to do a third cycle, just like I had said to do. Then, one of the techniques worked like a charm during the fourth cycle, and he was able to leave his body. However, if he had done everything like his neighbor in the classroom, then nothing would have happened for him either... I have introduced this example only because I remember it quite well, as two people sitting next to one another sharply contrasted in their approach to what they were told to do.
People also very often forget when performing indirect techniques to first try to separate, and only then do cycles. With direct techniques, people also tend to forget about the free-floating state of mind, though without it there's no point in expecting anything, as I always point out early on.
Sometimes incomplete performance of techniques happens not because of a person's psychology, but out of an inability to complete a task. For example, with indirect techniques, it's very important to awaken without moving. Many are simply unable to keep themselves from moving. However, achieving this only requires practice. Not only that, but many also forget that if they wake up to their body moving, then they should nevertheless still make an attempt at separation. Sure, their odds are lower than usual, but are still quite high.
By and far, we could go on forever about the different ways in which people fail to fully perform techniques. I only wanted to tell you, friend, to try to fully implement all of the techniques. Each sentence and every word in the sections on techniques has been vetted by years of classroom instruction and has much more weight than a cursory glance would imply.
You see, in taking this book into your hands, you may mistakenly assume it be yet another work on some-odd occult or esoteric practice, in which everything is vaguely described and the majority of details are literally left up to the reader. Do not take such an approach to this book under any circumstances. Everything here is already well known, there's no reason to shroud this practice in a cloud of secrecy. You have clear instructions right here in front of you. Just follow them."

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## Sarge_Maximus2

Thanks again for the help. I am sure that I am doing things 'my way' as you've said, but it's only because I feel there is a lack of explanation in some areas. For example, I've been reading about indirect techniques, so I plan to set my alarm for 6 hours of sleep, and then keep trying each time I wake up naturally, trying different techniques and trying to 'seperate'. I think what I'm having most trouble with is, in fact, the fact that it is an unknown path, and so I don't know what to do. For example, I've reached points in my experiments where I lose sound from the outside world, and then recoil because I feel I have to be aware, which just brings me out of where I was going. Are the indirect techniques going to just put me where I need to go? or is something more required? Finally, you mentioned I was being passive. What else am I supposed to do to make my efforts aggressive? I'm afraid that as of this moment, that is the most vague thing I'm trying to figure out. Again, I'm aware I've been doing things my own way on occasion, but I need some sort of map if you know what I mean. I guess I need to know what to expect so I can know if I'm doing it right or if I need to change some aspect, and what that may be.

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## mcwillis

The best thing to do would be to read the books as that is the road map that you need.  I will say though that by being passive I really mean that you need to be more aggresive.  When you experience the sensations of your 'other' body swinging or rotating 'will' yourself to stay conscious.

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## DukeDreamWalker

> For example, I've reached points in my experiments where I lose sound from the outside world, and then recoil because I feel I have to be aware, which just brings me out of where I was going. Are the indirect techniques going to just put me where I need to go? or is something more required?



One thing that has greatly enhanced my efforts is ear plugs.  That way no external sounds destroy my focus and in your case the lack of "sound from the outside world".

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## mcwillis

> One thing that has greatly enhanced my efforts is ear plugs.



Enhanced in what way please?

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## DukeDreamWalker

> Enhanced in what way please?



That way no external sounds destroy my focus and in your case the lack of "sound from the outside world".

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## mcwillis

> That way no external sounds destroy my focus.



I understand  :smiley: 





> and in your case the lack of "sound from the outside world".



Ah, that was Sarge_Maximus2 that said that.

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## Sarge_Maximus2

Yeah thanks. It all makes sense to me, but maybe I'm just frustrated having had previously good results with CrazyInsane's technique, and now another. Anyhow, I will follow the book as you suggested, but as a final question, does this sound like a good strategy? I plan to sleep for 6 hours before my alarm goes off (trying the seperating and then cycling techniques any time that I wake up spontaneously, whilst mastering my 'staying still upon awakening'.) then I will get up for a drink or watnot, and go back to bed, practicing indirect techniques as I will also do before I fall asleep as soon as I go to bed. That is for the weekdays, while in my weekends I plan to do the same thing, but after the 6 hour alarm, I will just keep 'sleeping in' to keep trying to have a successful session, while practicing. So I guess I'll treat it as a perfecting session, and if I achieve it great, but if not i'll keep trying to perfect it, sound good? Or is there an even better way to approach each night's trial? Sorry for all these questions lol. I know i should be reading the book (which I am) but it's good to get some not-so-technical help from people who've experienced it, besides the author. Hope that doesn't undermine my approach to the book.

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## moongrass

yeah it is hard just keep telling your self you will consciously wake up and stay still, it will happen, I'm getting better at it.

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## SKA

Excellent information. Excellent E-book. Free and available for the masses.
Very very inspiring.

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## mcwillis

> It all makes sense to me, but maybe I'm just frustrated having had previously good results with CrazyInsane's technique, and now another.



It isn't simply another technique.  I had no success with CrazyInsane's method because it won't work for most people.  Remember Mr. Raduga has personally taught this method to thousands of people in classrooms.  He knows what works and what doesn't.  He knows all of the pitfalls and mistakes that people make.





> I will follow the book as you suggested, but as a final question, does this sound like a good strategy?



The best strategy is to follow the instructions of the textbook exactly as described.





> I plan to sleep for 6 hours before my alarm goes off (trying the seperating and then cycling techniques any time that I wake up spontaneously, whilst mastering my 'staying still upon awakening') then I will get up for a drink or watnot, and go back to bed, practicing indirect techniques as I will also do before I fall asleep as soon as I go to bed.



As I said in my earlier post Mr. Raduga vehemently opposes practicing Direct Techniques before bed until one has mastered Indirect Techniques after six hours sleep.  I would follow his advice.  Though it is ok to _practice_ Indirect Techniques before sleep - there are important differences between this and Direct Techniques.  Once again reading the textbook is necessary to understand these differences.





> I know i should be reading the book (which I am) but it's good to get some not-so-technical help from people who've experienced it.



Yes reading, and more importantly, studying the books will prevent you from making dire mistakes.  As he says the textbook is like a physics textbook.  Read and study the workbook instead for ease of reading and then go back to the textbook for deeper clarification  :smiley:

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## mcwillis

> it will happen



Yes!  Confidence and motivation.  Ingredients for success!

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## mcwillis

> Excellent information. Excellent E-book. Free and available for the masses.
> Very very inspiring.



My sentiments exactly  :smiley:

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## MasterMind

Hmm I am not noticing my awakenings during the night anymore  ::?: 
I guess I have to learn to do that before anything else.

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## mcwillis

> Hmm I am not noticing my awakenings during the night anymore 
> I guess I have to learn to do that before anything else.



As Mr. Raduga says the natural awakenings we have at night are excellent moments of opportunity but only when Indirect Techniques have been mastered with WBTB.  His research has shown that this is what to do before anything else.  If you are accustomed to having WILD's or DEILD's during the night then learning this method properly will skyrocket your previous workings.

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## MasterMind

So are you saying that I should pracctise WBTB with an alarm clock and then use indirect techniques ?and when that is "mastered" I should focus on my natural awakenings? but how am I supposed to do the indirect techniques with an alarm clock, then I have to move.

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## mcwillis

This is all in the book!!!  Set your alarm to ring after six hours of sleep.  Stay up for a time appropriate for you depending on your personal level of sleep resistance.  Go back to sleep saying to yourself that when you next wake up naturally without any kind of alarm you will remain motionless and immediately practice Indirect Techniques.  Once you are very good at having lucid dreams with Indorect Techniques then start to work on your natural awakenings throughout the night.  In fact I have found them to be an excellent time to do them but due to my lack of experience with Indirect Techniques I kept going back to sleep and failing.  Mr. Raduga is an expert, I am now doing exactly what he says.  You will have the best results possible by doing the same, but you are only going to achieve that by reading and studying the books very carefully  :smiley:

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## BridgetJones09

> I may be wrong about this but it seems from what you have said that you haven't read up to page 40 as that is where the instructions for not moving upon awakening are.  If you haven't read the textbook yet I would strongly suggest not skipping through the book to page 40 as you will miss vital information that will save you from making mistakes that will arrest your progress.



 :Oops: You're not wrong. :Oops:  I have an excuse though. I have the ebook, and reading on the computer is tiresome for me. So I tend to skip parts or not read in order. (In case you're wondering, my printer is broken ::|: )

But this is news!!! Last night, after practicing the phantom wiggling during the day, I awoke, and by chance, I didn't move for once!. Then I thought: 'This is my opportunity!' I tried Phantom Wiggling and my index finger moved up and down!!! :woohoo:  Then I did the Listening in, and I heard an increasing *beeeeeeeeeeep* quite bothersome. Next I got so enthusiastic that I awoke. I'll give it another go tonight.

What I hadn't understand was that you were going to give each technique 3 to 5 seconds and try the next. I thought you were going to chose the one that you thought more suitable to you and stick to it. My mistake. I realized when I read your first post in this thread.

One more question. One thing I don't understand. I quote:





> *The phantom wiggling technique* is not meant to produce
> an imagined movement by a phantom body. The point of the
> technique is_ to attempt the movement of a physical body part
> without using muscular action._ That is, the focus should rest upon
> an internal intention of movement _without physical action._ When
> the sensation occurs, it differs little from its real counterpart and
> is often accompanied by heaviness and resistance. Generally,
> there is very little range of movement at first, but with
> concentrated effort the range of movement noticeably increases.



I've underlined the parts I didn't understand. My finger:_ did or didn't (physically) moved_??? Was it only a very real 'feeling'? Or it was _real real_?

Thanks for your help!!! ::kiss::

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## mcwillis

> You're not wrong. I have an excuse though. I have the ebook, and reading on the computer is tiresome for me. So I tend to skip parts or not read in order. (In case you're wondering, my printer is broken)



I understand about reading is tiresome for you.  I saw a friend of mine today who woke up blind one morning.  We are extremely fortunate to be able to read at all.  Your best option is to read the book slowly so that you understand what *not* to do.  You will be richly rewarded if you are patient now and not make mistakes that will hinder your progress later.





> But this is news!!! Last night, after practicing the phantom wiggling during the day, I awoke, and by chance, I didn't move for once!. Then I thought: 'This is my opportunity!' I tried Phantom Wiggling and my index finger moved up and down!!! Then I did the Listening in, and I heard an increasing *beeeeeeeeeeep* quite bothersome. Next I got so enthusiastic that I awoke. I'll give it another go tonight.



Woohoo!





> What I hadn't understand was that you were going to give each technique 3 to 5 seconds and try the next. I thought you were going to chose the one that you thought more suitable to you and stick to it. My mistake. I realized when I read your first post in this thread.



Yes, Mr. Raduga says that switching between Indirect Techniques is important to success.  A technique that may not work in initial training might work very well later on so the practice of techniques should be fluid.





> One more question. One thing I don't understand. I quote:
> 
> I've underlined the parts I didn't understand. My finger:_ did or didn't (physically) moved_??? Was it only a very real 'feeling'? Or it was _real real_?
> 
> Thanks for your help!!!



You have what is called an etheric body.  It is an exact duplicate of your physical body.  It is usually fixed firmly in place with our physical bodies unless one loosens it which is what you did with your finger.  Your etheric finger had loosened from your physical finger and that is why you could feel movement even though your physical finger was perfectly still  :smiley:

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## moongrass

Trying not to get off topic but what I do that is great is put this ebook on my kindle. I would suggest it, great device!

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## Sarge_Maximus2

I've tried phantom wiggling and along with that, listening in and straining the brain I plan to cycle. However, I have a question about the wiggling as well (and I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for your generous efforts to bare with us strugglers) but my question is this: When I try phantom wiggling, my hand seems to clench up ever so slightly. I can feel my muscles get tense as I try to move the perciev ed hand, and cannot seem to shake this sensation. I am not trying to move my ohysical one, just my percieved hand, but I can feel a slight physical change. Is this normal or do you have another way to remain detached? Thanks.

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## moongrass

Thankyou for asking, I have the same question. Sometimes it feels like I actually twitch my arm or something. IDK how to tell if I am really moving it or not.

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## mcwillis

> I've tried phantom wiggling and along with that, listening in and straining the brain I plan to cycle. However, I have a question about the wiggling as well (and I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for your generous efforts to bare with us strugglers) but my question is this: When I try phantom wiggling, my hand seems to clench up ever so slightly. I can feel my muscles get tense as I try to move the perciev ed hand, and cannot seem to shake this sensation. I am not trying to move my ohysical one, just my percieved hand, but I can feel a slight physical change. Is this normal or do you have another way to remain detached? Thanks.



I was a struggler too until I read both books several times.  I must admit I was getting annoyed in the past because people weren't reading the book and expecting to be spoon fed but I have calmed down now.  Ok, hold your arm out straight and move it up and down a few inches.  You can feel your muscles extending and contracting, you can feel your arm working to defy the force of gravity.  When I do the phantom wiggling I just imagine these feelings as if I am moving my physical arm.  Often my physical arm will be perfectly still and my 'other' arm is moving freely as it has seperated from my physical arm.

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## mcwillis

> Thankyou for asking, I have the same question. Sometimes it feels like I actually twitch my arm or something. IDK how to tell if I am really moving it or not.



When it happens you will know!

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## BridgetJones09

> I was a struggler too until I read both books several times. I must admit I was getting annoyed in the past because people weren't reading the book and expecting to be spoon fed but I have calmed down now. Ok, hold your arm out straight and move it up and down a few inches. You can feel your muscles extending and contracting, you can feel your arm working to defy the force of gravity. When I do the phantom wiggling I just imagine these feelings as if I am moving my physical arm. Often my physical arm will be perfectly still and my 'other' arm is moving freely as it has seperated from my physical arm.



Firstly, I perfectly undertand you. I like reading a lot (Hard copies) and also got annoyed when someone wanted to take advantage of that without the fuss of reading the book themselves.

In this case, however, as we're all strugglers and you seem to be an expert, it's very nice of you to take the trouble of explaining parts of the book, than, even when reading it, we fail to understand.

So I am bothering you again with some questions. One that I am most concerned about. Are you reading the ebook that can be downloaded from obe4u or the hard copy? Mine doesn't have this part:





> I am reading the workbook for the fourth time as I have been making mistakes and am analysing my actions to see where I am going wrong; and finding the answers!  Please note it is *the workbook* and not *the textbook*.  I am going to paste below an extract from the chapter entitled *'Extremely Important Advice'.*
> 
> Quoting Mr. Raduga:
> 
> "If you veer off the path I have shown you, you'll be either completely depriving yourself of a rewarding experience, or at least making such an experience a very rare event. I often have to fight with one very strange aspect of human psychology: the desire to do things in one's own way in a field that one knows nothing about..........."



I've tried the 'search' button on the pdf but I lack the part I've underlined and coloured. And, what do you call *the workbook* and what *the textbook?*

There's something amiss here... ::?: 

Next issue (sorry this is sooo long winded,,,!)

This is what my Index looks like:




> Part 1.................................................  .............................................5
> Entering the Phase State.............................................  ....................5
> Chapter 1  General Background........................................  ......5
> Chapter 2  Indirect Techniques........................................  .....17
> Chapter 3  Direct Techniques........................................  ........54
> Chapter 4  Becoming Conscious While Dreaming...............69
> Chapter 5  Non-autonomous Methods...................................79
> Part II................................................  ............................................91
> Managing the Out-of-Body Experience.......................................9  1
> ...



That's why I hadn't notice the tip on page 40 as you told me.

Then, Training *PHANTOM WIGGLING*




> *Training*
> To train the technique of phantom wiggling, relax a hand
> for several minutes while lying down, eyes closed. Then,
> aggressively envision the following hand movements, without
> moving any muscles, for two to three minutes each: rotating, updown,
> left-right, extending the fingers and drawing the fingers
> together, clenching and unclenching a fist. No sensations will
> occur at first. Gradually, the sensation of muscular action will
> become so apparent that the perceived movement will be
> ...



I told you about the success I had moving one finger when I woke up without moving, and also succesfull on Listening In.
In the Training, though, am I to feel the same? The ethereal body moving and feeling as if I was really moving??? 'Cause during training in waking hours,_ nothing moves, ever._ If I did it being half-conscious, where I am failing at while fully conscious? (I keep my eyes closed all the time). :Uhm: 

I'll read the book consciously from beginning to end, I promise. I am only concerned at this not being complete...

Thanks for your help! :For Xox:

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## vmenge

> In the Training, though, am I to feel the same? The ethereal body moving and feeling as if I was really moving??? 'Cause during training in waking hours,_ nothing moves, ever._ If I did it being half-conscious, where I am failing at while fully conscious? (I keep my eyes closed all the time).



Well, I haven't finished reading the book, but training the Phantom Wiggling technique (what a silly name  :tongue2: ) after a while of trying to move my imaginary finger I felt as though my finger just touched the palm of my hand, except I wasn't moving it  :tongue2: 
This is something that happens to me a LOT when I'm really sleepy and imagining things in my mind. Once I imagined I was wearing glasses and I felt something behind my ear, which made me open my eyes and stand up real abruptly  :tongue2:

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## mcwillis

> In this case, however, as we're all strugglers and you seem to be an expert, it's very nice of you to take the trouble of explaining parts of the book, than, even when reading it, we fail to understand.



I'm not an expert!  Mr. Raduga is an expert.  I have only come to understand through study and practice.





> I've tried the 'search' button on the pdf but I lack the part I've underlined and coloured. And, what do you call *the workbook* and what *the textbook?*



This is the download link which has a folder of both books 

The textbook is 'School of ...'
The workbook is 'Ultimate yoga ...'

Thanks for the flower!  :For Xox:

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## mcwillis

> Well, I haven't finished reading the book, but training the Phantom Wiggling technique (what a silly name ) after a while of trying to move my imaginary finger I felt as though my finger just touched the palm of my hand, except I wasn't moving it 
> This is something that happens to me a LOT when I'm really sleepy and imagining things in my mind. Once I imagined I was wearing glasses and I felt something behind my ear, which made me open my eyes and stand up real abruptly



The strangest thing I've experienced so far is something hitting me on the head!

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## Sarge_Maximus2

> I'm not an expert!  Mr. Raduga is an expert.  I have only come to understand through study and practice.



I think we understand that, it's just, for my part, some things aren't in the book like when I asked you if you were supposed to feel your hand physically tense up. Anyhow, I'm going pretty good now, I'm going to (hopefully) have a REAL night of attempts tonight, and I'll post my results here with no questions unless I've first looked them up in the book I promise  :smiley:

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## vmenge

> The strangest thing I've experienced so far is something hitting me on the head!



I tend to doze off a LOT when thinking about stuff right before sleep, and have sorts of mini-dreams (unfortunately whenever I want to do this consciously to have a VILD it never works  :tongue2: ), so lots of strange stuff like this happens.
More than once I woke up with a jump after dozing off  thinking about walking somewhere and then falling  :tongue2: 
Visualization is something I won't be trying with other indirect techniques  :smiley:

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## BridgetJones09

> Originally Posted by *vmenge*
> Well, I haven't finished reading the book, but training the Phantom Wiggling technique (what a silly name ) after a while of trying to move my imaginary finger I felt as though my finger just touched the palm of my hand, except I wasn't moving it
> This is something that happens to me a LOT when I'm really sleepy and imagining things in my mind. Once I imagined I was wearing glasses and I felt something behind my ear, which made me open my eyes and stand up real abruptly



It only happens when you're sleepy or also when you're training _fully conscious?_





> The strangest thing I've experienced so far is something hitting me on the head!



Spooky, right?  :Eek: 

But hey, guys. Nothing is happening to me during the training of the technique...some 'pins and needles' sensation, and nothing else. Should I go on? I usually get distracted after trying for a while and not getting anywhere.  ::shakehead2:: 

After my first attempt successupon awakening! What a shame! :Bang head: 

*mcwillis:*Thanks for the info. I didn't have 'The Ultimate Yoga...' Was just being dumb  :tongue2:

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## mcwillis

> Spooky, right?



I didn't experience it as being spooky as I knew it was just a hynogogic/hynopompic phenomena. 





> But hey, guys. Nothing is happening to me during the training of the technique...some 'pins and needles' sensation, and nothing else. Should I go on? I usually get distracted after trying for a while and not getting anywhere.



Don't expect any experience whilst practicing Indirect Techniques.  All you are doing is just that, practicing, ready for when you use them upon awakening.  You need to know what you are going to do when you awaken with a clear cut plan.  That is all.

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## vmenge

> It only happens when you're sleepy or also when you're training _fully conscious?_



Sleepy I guess... but I'm sleepy during 90% of my day so I guess it counts as sort of conscious?  ::lol::

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## mcwillis

> Visualization is something I won't be trying with other indirect techniques



Visualisation is one of the Secondary Indirect Techniques, page 26 of the textbook.  Mr. Raduga suggests not to dismiss certain techniques as they don't work for you.  In time they may later be of immense value to you  :smiley:

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## bellatrix18

Just thought I'd message in to say *thank you thank you thank you* for posting this thread mcwillis  :smiley: 

I read the book thoroughly a couple of days ago (especially the indirect technique bit) and last night I finally succeeded in waking up without moving. I immediately tried to 'roll out' but felt like I'd moved in RL so was worried it wouldn't work... but I figured the book said there's still hope if you've only moved a little bit so I attempted  'forced falling asleep' but couldn't quite figure out how to do it.

So... I remembered the 'mobile phone' technique where you imagine holding a phone. As soon as I became aware of my hand I felt a strange plastic feeling ring in my hand. It felt 100% real to the point where I questioned whether I'd actually picked something up in my sleep and was now holding it. I could easily move it around in my hand and feel every detail.

So I sat up in bed, looked around the room and thought that it hadn't worked because my room looked so real and I felt awake so I lay back down and went to sleep.

Now upon wakening I realised that it had worked. Last night during my 'dream' my room was tidy and it was sunny outside (even though it was night and my room's actually quite a mess  :Oops:  ) I hadn't been prepared for such an *easy* realistic transition. I couldn't tell the difference between reality and the dream world and felt no wierd vibrations or HI. I felt so awake and conscious and everything was so clear and vivid, totally different from DILDs I've had in the past  ::D: 

Thanks so much again for this! I've been unsuccessfully trying to LD again for almost 5 months now and have been in a dry spell for two years so this progress is making me feel on top of the world.
I really can't wait til tonight- I'll be prepared for the realism and hopefully succeed.

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## mcwillis

> Just thought I'd message in to say *thank you thank you thank you* for posting this thread mcwillis 
> 
> I read the book thoroughly a couple of days ago (especially the indirect technique bit) and last night I finally succeeded in waking up without moving. I immediately tried to 'roll out' but felt like I'd moved in RL so was worried it wouldn't work... but I figured the book said there's still hope if you've only moved a little bit so I attempted  'forced falling asleep' but couldn't quite figure out how to do it.
> 
> So... I remembered the 'mobile phone' technique where you imagine holding a phone. As soon as I became aware of my hand I felt a strange plastic feeling ring in my hand. It felt 100% real to the point where I questioned whether I'd actually picked something up in my sleep and was now holding it. I could easily move it around in my hand and feel every detail.
> 
> So I sat up in bed, looked around the room and thought that it hadn't worked because my room looked so real and I felt awake so I lay back down and went to sleep.
> 
> Now upon wakening I realised that it had worked. Last night during my 'dream' my room was tidy and it was sunny outside (even though it was night and my room's actually quite a mess  ) I hadn't been prepared for such an *easy* realistic transition. I couldn't tell the difference between reality and the dream world and felt no wierd vibrations or HI. I felt so awake and conscious and everything was so clear and vivid, totally different from DILDs I've had in the past 
> ...



 :woohoo:   :woohoo:   :woohoo: 

I didn't call this thread how to have an Instant WILD for nothing!

----------


## dakotahnok

*





 Originally Posted by PercyLucid


There is a lot of literature out there which is great to add to knowledge.  

 DEILD which requires mantras and hard work, and my own made method L-DEILD which is very close to what you posted, but requires to be completed from a lucid dreaming.




I wouldnt say that its your own technique because DEILD is known as Dream chaining. Which is one lucid after another. "L-DEILD"

You just call it something differient*

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## Sarge_Maximus2

Well I for one have still had no success >< I have no time to try this on weekdays, and last weekend I had to take my mom to the airport at 5:30 a.m. so was tired to the point of exhaustion all day. I tried to go to bed early, but all I did was have various times I woke up and just rolled over to sleep-in. I need some advice on how to proceed with my situation, or should I just continue as I'm doing now? Thanks.

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## mcwillis

> Well I for one have still had no success >< I have no time to try this on weekdays, and last weekend I had to take my mom to the airport at 5:30 a.m. so was tired to the point of exhaustion all day. I tried to go to bed early, but all I did was have various times I woke up and just rolled over to sleep-in. I need some advice on how to proceed with my situation, or should I just continue as I'm doing now? Thanks.



Some of us don't have the luxury of being able to do this during the week so weekends are your best chance.  How are you training yourself to awaken without moving?  How much sleep are you getting before waking up in the morning?  How long are you staying awake before going back to bed to use the Indirect Techniques?  How many Indirect Techniques have you chosen for a cycle to be used when you wake up?  How many cycles of Indirect Techniques do you do even though you roll over?

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## mcguinnessdr

Four days ago I had a really cool experience. I woke up and rolled over to check the emails on my ipod, part of the email was coherent, but most was jibberish. I rolled back over to sleep some more, then realized that I hadn't moved. By the time i realized this I was too awake and moved my actual body. It was really cool though, and felt so real and clear, like belatrix18 said.

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## Sarge_Maximus2

> Some of us don't have the luxury of being able to do this during the week so weekends are your best chance.  How are you training yourself to awaken without moving?  How much sleep are you getting before waking up in the morning?  How long are you staying awake before going back to bed to use the Indirect Techniques?  How many Indirect Techniques have you chosen for a cycle to be used when you wake up?  How many cycles of Indirect Techniques do you do even though you roll over?



 I know what you mean. But to answer your questions:
I havn't been training myself, I've just been trying to keep it in mind, which seemed to work for me when I was using Crazyinsane's method. I am getting 6 hours of sleep before hand. I am staying awake on average of 0.50 - 10 minutes. I have 3 techniques to cycle: Straining the brain, phantom wiggling, and internal listening. I usually can do two but I've done all three and even looped the process a couple of times. Thanks again.  :smiley:

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## vmenge

Well, after 6 nights trying to wake up without moving, I got as close as I could today. I had a terrible traumatizing nightmare, and woke up without moving. Then as I felt relief I don't remember it quite, but I thought I either opened my eyes or moved, and instantly reminded myself I shouldn't have. Oh well...
But then I closed my eyes and tried to get my body to move along the Rotation indirect technique. Weirdly enough I felt it work even though the sensation I felt was that I was rocking my body back and forth (go figure). After 3 seconds I tried changing to the Listening In indirect technique, but then I heard my computer fan and that ruined it for me completely. So close  :Sad: 
_
edit: corrected terrible grammar wow_  ::shock::

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## mcwillis

> Four days ago I had a really cool experience. I woke up and rolled over to check the emails on my ipod, part of the email was coherent, but most was jibberish. I rolled back over to sleep some more, then realized that I hadn't moved. By the time i realized this I was too awake and moved my actual body. It was really cool though, and felt so real and clear, like belatrix18 said.



Yes this can be quite common.

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## mcwillis

> I know what you mean. But to answer your questions:
> I havn't been training myself, I've just been trying to keep it in mind, which seemed to work for me when I was using Crazyinsane's method. I am getting 6 hours of sleep before hand. I am staying awake on average of 0.50 - 10 minutes. I have 3 techniques to cycle: Straining the brain, phantom wiggling, and internal listening. I usually can do two but I've done all three and even looped the process a couple of times. Thanks again.



I can see immediately that when you say that you *even* looped the process a couple of times you are saying that it was an accomplishment.  The cyling of the three techniques you have chosen is vital.  A minimum of four cycles is needed.  If after five you cycles you don't succeed go back to sleep and go through the process again at your next natural awakening.  Also experiment with the other Indirect Techniques as they may be very valuable for you.

----------


## mcwillis

> Well, after 6 nights trying to wake up without moving, I got as close as I could today. I had a terrible traumatizing nightmare, and woke up without moving. Then as I felt relief I don't remember it quite, but I thought I either opened my eyes or moved, and instantly reminded myself I shouldn't have. Oh well...
> But then I closed my eyes and trying to get my body to move along the Rotation indirect technique. Weirdly enough I felt it work even though the sensation I felt was that I was rocking my body back and forth (go figure). After 3 seconds I tried changing to the Listening In indirect technique, but then I heard my computer fan and that ruined it for me completely. So close



A little movement doesn't necessarily mean failure, it just greatly reduces your chance of success.  If you felt phantom movement you are nearly there.  Did you awakwen naturally or did you use an alarm?  I ask this as you say your computer was on and I used my laptop as an alarm system but I found out that using an alarm is highly detrimental.  Mr. Raduga says using an alarm reduces your chance of success by 50-75%.

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## vmenge

> A little movement doesn't necessarily mean failure, it just greatly reduces your chance of success.  If you felt phantom movement you are nearly there.  Did you awakwen naturally or did you use an alarm?  I ask this as you say your computer was on and I used my laptop as an alarm system but I found out that using an alarm is highly detrimental.  Mr. Raduga says using an alarm reduces your chance of success by 50-75%.



Every attempt I made at trying to wake up and not moving was done without any alarm of sorts, I've read about what Raduga said about using an alarm in a post of yours before I started trying his methods (well, I'm pretty sure it was a post of yours, but I may be wrong)  :tongue2: 
Well, hopefully I'll have better luck tonight  ::D:

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## Sarge_Maximus2

> I can see immediately that when you say that you *even* looped the process a couple of times you are saying that it was an accomplishment.  The cyling of the three techniques you have chosen is vital.  A minimum of four cycles is needed.  If after five you cycles you don't succeed go back to sleep and go through the process again at your next natural awakening.  Also experiment with the other Indirect Techniques as they may be very valuable for you.



Alright, thanks. Also, (and just let me know if this is in the book) but how do you lucid dream instead of OBE using these techniques?

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## mcwillis

> Alright, thanks. Also, (and just let me know if this is in the book) but how do you lucid dream instead of OBE using these techniques?



Just to recap the info is below.  With regards to lucids its down to lady luck until you gather plenty of experience.  Mr. Raduga says you can have them often.

*Page 44 from the workbook, 'The Ultmiate Yoga...'*

"Another widespread problem is incomplete performance of the techniques. No less than 75% of practitioners who are learning using my techniques suffer from this. It's interesting to note that 75% of them do so deliberately. Friend, you'll see later on that you need not perform superhuman feats in order to achieve the phase state. As far as the indirect techniques are concerned, you just need perform a simple algorithm of actions upon awakening. Just complete everything that you are required to do in full. And perform everything just as it is described.
Let's observe a few examples of incomplete performance of the techniques. We'll start with cycles of indirect techniques - the one universal phase entrance technique-based technology. It entails the completion, upon awakening, of no less than 4 cycles of techniques for a total of 9-15 seconds each, until a technique works. For some reason, many think that the proscribed minimum of 4 cycles does not apply to them. And so they do 1 or 2 cycles.... Like the time at one of my seminars when two men of about the same age sat next to each-other, both in the neighborhood of 45 years old. This was the second session, and they spoke about what they had been doing, and how things were going for them. The first man said that he had started by doing 2 cycles during one attempt, but then seeing as nothing was working, he decided to stop right there, even though I had said the previous afternoon to do 4 cycles. I had repeated it again and again... The second gentleman had also started by doing two cycles and nothing worked for him either. But he then started to do a third cycle, just like I had said to do. Then, one of the techniques worked like a charm during the fourth cycle, and he was able to leave his body. However, if he had done everything like his neighbor in the classroom, then nothing would have happened for him either... I have introduced this example only because I remember it quite well, as two people sitting next to one another sharply contrasted in their approach to what they were told to do.
People also very often forget when performing indirect techniques to first try to separate, and only then do cycles. With direct techniques, people also tend to forget about the free-floating state of mind, though without it there's no point in expecting anything, as I always point out early on.
Sometimes incomplete performance of techniques happens not because of a person's psychology, but out of an inability to complete a task. For example, with indirect techniques, it's very important to awaken without moving. Many are simply unable to keep themselves from moving. However, achieving this only requires practice. Not only that, but many also forget that if they wake up to their body moving, then they should nevertheless still make an attempt at separation. Sure, their odds are lower than usual, but are still quite high.
By and far, we could go on forever about the different ways in which people fail to fully perform techniques. I only wanted to tell you, friend, to try to fully implement all of the techniques. Each sentence and every word in the sections on techniques has been vetted by years of classroom instruction and has much more weight than a cursory glance would imply.
You see, in taking this book into your hands, you may mistakenly assume it be yet another work on some-odd occult or esoteric practice, in which everything is vaguely described and the majority of details are literally left up to the reader. Do not take such an approach to this book under any circumstances. Everything here is already well known, there's no reason to shroud this practice in a cloud of secrecy. You have clear instructions right here in front of you. Just follow them."

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## Sarge_Maximus2

Well thank you. It's not that I'm not trying to though, it's that I fall asleep mid-way. Anyhow, I can only assume it's because I'm, tired from work and should therefore try it on the weekend, which is now. I'll do as it says and let you know what happens.

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## mcwillis

> Well thank you. It's not that I'm not trying to though, it's that I fall asleep mid-way. Anyhow, I can only assume it's because I'm, tired from work and should therefore try it on the weekend, which is now. I'll do as it says and let you know what happens.



I intend to improve so that I can have several lucids each week in the morning and also at the end or REM periods at night too.  I had the same problem when I started as I fell asleep before completing one cycle of four or five techniques.  I had to force myself to be more aggresive and overcome the sneaky desire to go back to sleep again.

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## Sarge_Maximus2

> I intend to improve so that I can have several lucids each week in the morning and also at the end or REM periods at night too.  I had the same problem when I started as I fell asleep before completing one cycle of four or five techniques.  I had to force myself to be more aggresive and overcome the sneaky desire to go back to sleep again.



A wise policy lol, and good idea, your goals and mine are quite similar, I also want to explore OBE's to see if they are real and how real they are as well.

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## Raspberry

subbed

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## mcwillis

> subbed



What does that mean please?

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## Raspberry

Oh, I just making a post to subscribe to the thread  :smiley:  To stick it in my control panel.

I got the ebook, but it seems to have disappeared from my files so I'm getting it again. I haven't read it all, or understood all that I've read, but as you said: I'll need to study it more.  ::D:

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## Sarge_Maximus2

So no luck this morning, but I stayed up late again. I had non-stop dreams though and they wouldn't stop even when I was groggily awake. I gave up after falling alseep and waking up again three times within 30 minutes. I must have been disturbed with something because that was an odd bit of lousy sleep. Will try again tonight.

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## vmenge

Unfortunately I'm having some serious troubles getting myself to wake up without moving. By the time I remember myself I wasn't suppose to move, I've already screwed up considerably.
I usually go to sleep telling myself to not move once I wake up, should I be doing this during the day to? Any tips?

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## mcwillis

> Unfortunately I'm having some serious troubles getting myself to wake up without moving. By the time I remember myself I wasn't suppose to move, I've already screwed up considerably.
> I usually go to sleep telling myself to not move once I wake up, should I be doing this during the day to? Any tips?



Keep at it, it will work.  I find it very easy when napping in the day but a little harder after WBTB.  My auto-suggestion is this, "When I wake up I will remain perfectly still and practice Indirect Techniques"

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## mcwillis

> Unfortunately I'm having some serious troubles getting myself to wake up without moving. By the time I remember myself I wasn't suppose to move, I've already screwed up considerably.
> I usually go to sleep telling myself to not move once I wake up, should I be doing this during the day to? Any tips?



Keep at it, it will work.  I find it very easy when napping in the day but a little harder after WBTB.  My auto-suggestion is this, "When I wake up I will remain perfectly still and practice Indirect Techniques"

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## Phantasos

Ok, I will comment something about Michael Raduga's "School of Out-of-Body Travel. A Practical Guidebook". It must be said that the author is well-known in Russian LD scene. The book is indeed very good because it is very oriented on practical results. It contains very good systematization of known methods and algoritmization of how to have LD (mainly WILDs). The key part is "Indirect techs" which tells how to have easy (W/DE)ILD immediately after awakening or within few minutes time frame. The idea is that there is an algorithm which make it possible to have LDs much more frequently. I will not say it is a Holy Grail but imo it is the best textbook on the subject. 

The minor downside is that the author invented new terms though it has some background reasons.

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## LawPaw

I feel like Raduga's method is the best method.  I think I would have much better success if I had just stuck with his method instead of pursuing other methods on this site.

So far I've only had one "Phase" or LD that has lasted more than a few seconds.  It was using Raduga's method after returning to it after doing some other things.

My biggest problem seems to be getting out of my body fully.  I have never had any problem waking without moving and can fairly easily transition into a tingly SP with a good volume of internal sound from "listening in."  I never get significant images when trying to observe images.

Anyway, when I get to a very tingly SP with volume from listening in, at times I can move an arm or leg, but have problems separating completely.  Once when phantom wiggling my fingers down at waist level I felt them on my face.  I had phantom moved my arm down, but my real fingers were moving with my phantom fingers on my face.  The freaky thing was that I had absolutely no feeling of my real arm, so it felt like someone else touching my face until I freaked out enough to fully wake up.

I can roll around to the point where I feel like my body is upside down or upright, but can't seem to get out of my body.  

In my one long LD, I didn't even really get out.  I was just suddenly at the foot of my bed completely blind and numb after listening in intensely.  It took a great deal of rubbing my hands together to get any feeling in my body then vision.  After that I was so shocked by the realism that I just sort of walked around and stared until my lack of activity made me fall asleep.

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## MikeMk

> Unfortunately I'm having some serious troubles getting myself to wake up without moving. By the time I remember myself I wasn't suppose to move, I've already screwed up considerably.
> I usually go to sleep telling myself to not move once I wake up, should I be doing this during the day to? Any tips?



Raduga says it is not a problem:





> However, if an awakening is conscious, but with movement, that does not mean that the practitioner cannot immediately make an attempt to fall into the phase. Such attempts, although they will be about 5 times less effective than usual, should nevertheless be made Any opportunity to practice while waking should not be wasted. It must only be kept in mind that one must first neutralize the effects of the movement in order to once again fall into an intermediate state. In the case of movement, it is extremely helpful to begin practice with forced falling asleep. Listening in also works well, as does observing images and phantom wiggling, each performed passively for 5-15 seconds, instead of the standard duration of 3 to 5 seconds. After performing these, cycling may begin.

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## iFatal

I am reading the book and it's pretty interesting but could you please explain what and OBE is? I know it stands for "Out of body experience" but I don't see how and OBE is any different from a False Awakening.

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## moongrass

It is like lucid dream but without a dream body, not really like a FA at all.

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## LawPaw

It is a lucid dream.  He believes the lucid dreams, OBE's, ect. are all a "Phase State."

He uses the term OBE so often because his method typically involves getting "out of your body" from an awake state (entering a lucid dream from an awake state or WILD).  Some of his methods will put you into a lucid dream in a location other than where you perceive you body (observing images), but most involve separating from you body.  It is easy to perceive this as an OBE.

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## halfer

I thought this is complete b******* and just a poor commercial but it seems I was wrong. Even if it is, it works. 
   I read somewhat around 30 pages and found out about phantom wiggling. I went to bed *WITHOUT* sleeping before and tried to do it lying on my back. Then I got into sleep paralysis (well, not really). I felt what I usually feel. Vibration in all body, loud noises in my head (I actually heard my dad watching a movie through 2 big rooms) and heard a loud woman's voice whispering something about "coming with her" (yea, that's weird  ::lol:: ). But I think I could move (though I didn't try to)
   But the thing is, i got tired of lying still and just went to sleep. I woke up 2.5 hours after that (3:30 am) and THEN I had a Lucid Dream. It was the best of 4 I have already had (I even ate a flying pill but that didn't work  :Sad: ). I woke up at 7:40 am and the wake itself was pretty unique. It's like I didn't sleep at all, just daydreamed the whole thing.
  Anyway, thanks for creating this thread, the book is totally worth a read (though I'm reading the original, Russian version)

*EDIT*: Wow, I have just thought about one thing. When I got to sleep, breaking the SP i woke up after 2.5 hours, but the thing is, I don't remember looking at the time. Maybe that was false awakening?

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## halfer

I've got a question *mcwillis*. You said you almost immediately got into the dream after wiggling. After getting there did you understand that you're dreaming? Or you had to do a reality check?

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## mcwillis

> I thought this is complete b******* and just a poor commercial but it seems I was wrong. Even if it is, it works. 
>    I read somewhat around 30 pages and found out about phantom wiggling. I went to bed *WITHOUT* sleeping before and tried to do it lying on my back. Then I got into sleep paralysis (well, not really). I felt what I usually feel. Vibration in all body, loud noises in my head (I actually heard my dad watching a movie through 2 big rooms) and heard a loud woman's voice whispering something about "coming with her" (yea, that's weird ). But I think I could move (though I didn't try to)
>    But the thing is, i got tired of lying still and just went to sleep. I woke up 2.5 hours after that (3:30 am) and THEN I had a Lucid Dream. It was the best of 4 I have already had (I even ate a flying pill but that didn't work ). I woke up at 7:40 am and the wake itself was pretty unique. It's like I didn't sleep at all, just daydreamed the whole thing.
>   Anyway, thanks for creating this thread, the book is totally worth a read (though I'm reading the original, Russian version)
> 
> *EDIT*: Wow, I have just thought about one thing. When I got to sleep, breaking the SP i woke up after 2.5 hours, but the thing is, I don't remember looking at the time. Maybe that was false awakening?



 :woohoo:   :woohoo:   :woohoo:

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## mcwillis

> I've got a question *mcwillis*. You said you almost immediately got into the dream after wiggling. After getting there did you understand that you're dreaming? Or you had to do a reality check?



I was laying there going through the Indirect Techniques that I had chosen and after about fifteen seconds, as described in the first post, I saw a pool of purplish water in the darkness of my closed eyelids and I thought that is a particularly clear, vivid memory impression.  Then suddenly I was fully immersed in the lucid dream.

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## mcwillis

> It is like lucid dream but without a dream body, not really like a FA at all.



The only problem with an OBE sometimes is that you don't have the omnipotent powers that you can have in a lucid, which is why I favour having lucids.

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## Sarge_Maximus2

Ok, I have a question again. It seems some are having success, and others, like me, still struggle, so I hope you don't mind my blunt inquiries. However, the last weekend I successfully cycled through four complete indirect technique cycles (three indirect techniques per cycle). I, however, had no results whatsoever. I feel that counting for the 15 seconds (because I move constantly whenever I try to practice these techniques, in anticipation I can only guess) kept me distracted from the matter at hand. Also, I had the strongest results with the "listening in" technique, as the sound became quite loud, but then plateaued and went no further. I don't understand what went wrong. I had the 6 hours of sleep before-hand and I cycled the 3 techniques 4 times. 
Also, once I fell back asleep and re-awoke, I tried a regular WILD attempt and began to feel "drugged" and "out of my mind" when I saw what I perceived to be a Hypnogognic Hallucination, so I drifted toward it and focused on it intently, but it was actually the wall, and my eyes were actually open, which brought me full-circle back to an awakened state ( I know it was not a dream because I did several reality checks). I'm now reading the book for further directions on how exactly to separate and what is to be done if a particular technique is working, or seeming to, but what I ask is what I did wrong in that latest attempt according to your opinion. Thanks.

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## mcwillis

> Ok, I have a question again. It seems some are having success, and others, like me, still struggle, so I hope you don't mind my blunt inquiries. However, the last weekend I successfully cycled through four complete indirect technique cycles (three indirect techniques per cycle). I, however, had no results whatsoever.



Sometimes I don't either.  Thats why he suggests we do it up to five times in a four jour period of sleep after WBTB. 





> I feel that counting for the 15 seconds (because I move constantly whenever I try to practice these techniques, in anticipation I can only guess) kept me distracted from the matter at hand. Also, I had the strongest results with the "listening in" technique, as the sound became quite loud, but then plateaued and went no further. I don't understand what went wrong.



It is possible to succeed even though we have moved but our chances are greatly reduced.  Keep at it.

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## LawPaw

> I feel that counting for the 15 seconds (because I move constantly whenever I try to practice these techniques, in anticipation I can only guess) kept me distracted from the matter at hand.



In my experience, the exact timing shouldn't become important to the point of being distracting.  When you go to sleep just focus on waking without moving after a few hours with the immediate intention of leaving your body and the secondary intent of doing 3-5 indirect methods if getting out of your body doesn't work after a little while.

I don't count.  I just wake and try to exit my body.  If that doesn't work I start doing indirect methods.  I just do something as long as it keeps progressing and then if nothing happens or I get to a stand still for a few seconds I move on.  No counting, as little thought into the "science" behind the movements as possible.

If I focuse too much on the strategy, it diminishes my results.

I have problems fully seperating.  This morning I was partially separating really well, but kept getting forcefully sucked back into my body.

I wish the books had more written on seperation techniques.

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## mcwillis

> I wish the books had more written on seperation techniques.



Here is an excellent video tutorial on exit techniques

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## Sarge_Maximus2

Ok thanks. Also, I read that with ,listening in, one should note the dynamics of the sound. So, it doesn't have to get very loud, you just have to keep listening to it? if so, when do you attempt to seperate after you've been listening to it. Finally, what kind of things with listening in indicates that it should be pursued to a full separation attempt?

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## Flyer62

Thanks for that.

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## vmenge

I have to say that I have finally been able to wake up without moving (yay!). I don't know if it's coincidence or not, but after watching this video before going to sleep last night I managed to dream a dream and wake up exactly when it ended, lay still and try to have a WILD. Problem was, I only tried Phantom Wiggling and the one where you rotate your body. I felt my dream arm lifting, it was weird, it felt as if one of my fingers was stuck in the edge of a surface while the rest of my hand was trying to pull up and away form it, even though my hand was just laying there and resting on a completely flat surface (and nowhere near the edge of it). Weird thing is, the one where you rotate your body didn't work for me, and I could only perform the Phantom Wigggling in my left arm. After a while I moved my legs and did the pinch nose RC to see if I was dreaming and I wasn't  :Sad: 
I was having too much trouble pulling my (dream) arm up, it was REALLY heavy, and the rotation thingy didn't work (even though it did once before). Then I tried again even though I moved and the same thing happened, and for a second I was able to imagine a scenery but it faded as soon I noticed I was imagining it. Then I tried imagining an object, an apple (rotating between t ying to imagine an object, Phantom Wiggling and the one where you rotate your body). Phantom Wiggling was still hard, my arm was frickin' heavy and after a while I was able to start moving my right arm in the same manner too, couldn't get both of them past a specific height though. I then managed to see a really faint blurry apple in my mind but I heard some sounds in the background and it dissipated. After trying Phantom Wiggling again (body rotation one still not working) I accidentally tried too hard and moved both my arms up for real  :tongue2: 
Then I gave up and went back to sleep +_+
Weird thing is I never felt any sign of SP. What's up with that?

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## mcwillis

> I have to say that I have finally been able to wake up without moving (yay!). I don't know if it's coincidence or not, but after watching this video before going to sleep last night I managed to dream a dream and wake up exactly when it ended, lay still and try to have a WILD. Problem was, I only tried Phantom Wiggling and the one where you rotate your body.



Two Indirect Techniques is the bare minimum, more gives you better chances for success





> I felt my dream arm lifting, it was weird, it felt as if one of my fingers was stuck in the edge of a surface while the rest of my hand was trying to pull up and away form it, even though my hand was just laying there and resting on a completely flat surface (and nowhere near the edge of it). Weird thing is, the one where you rotate your body didn't work for me, and I could only perform the Phantom Wigggling in my left arm.



This happens to me too.  If after five seconds I don't experience any evidence of an approaching lucid I switch to another Indirect Technique.





> After a while I moved my legs and did the pinch nose RC to see if I was dreaming and I wasn't



If you are after an OBE then try using movement free RC's, that way you won't ruin the trance that you're in.





> I was having too much trouble pulling my (dream) arm up, it was REALLY heavy, and the rotation thingy didn't work (even though it did once before). Then I tried again even though I moved and the same thing happened, and for a second I was able to imagine a scenery but it faded as soon I noticed I was imagining it. Then I tried imagining an object, an apple (rotating between t ying to imagine an object, Phantom Wiggling and the one where you rotate your body). Phantom Wiggling was still hard, my arm was frickin' heavy and after a while I was able to start moving my right arm in the same manner too, couldn't get both of them past a specific height though. I then managed to see a really faint blurry apple in my mind but I heard some sounds in the background and it dissipated. After trying Phantom Wiggling again (body rotation one still not working) I accidentally tried too hard and moved both my arms up for real



Seeing a blurry apple is an excellent sign as that is a dream beginning to form  :smiley: 





> Then I gave up and went back to sleep +_+



Keep at it, you are experiencing great phenomena, you are nearly there  :smiley: 





> Weird thing is I never felt any sign of SP. What's up with that?



I rarely experience sleep paralysis, so don't worry about it.

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## halfer

So I continue on reading the book. I'm about half through and got to the OBE section. But I'm reading it in Russian so I have understood what is OBE *JUST NOW*. At first I did not understand what is this "holding up to the objects to get out of body" about. Now I have some questions. 
1.) Does phase=Sleep Paralysis?
2.) What is the main difference between LD induction and OBE induction? 
From what I understood, you can't get OBE if you haven't got into SP, as you can in LD. You can do reality checks in real life so it will carry on to your dreams and you will get an LD even if you haven't got there through SP (I guess it happened to me before as I replied in this thread)
3.) Does OBE mean that you will ALWAYS see yourself in YOUR bedroom?
3.) Can you create your environment in OBE? For example, you see yourself in bed, open the door and you're not in your house anymore

Thanks for the support, this is super exciting

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## LawPaw

> Here is an excellent video tutorial on exit techniques



Thanks.  I've actually had a couple of LD's this week using what is probably something like the "Limb Creation" section of this video.

I usually don't have any problem getting my arms free through Phantom Wiggling.  So what I've been doing when the rest of me is stuck is to focus on my phantom arms and essentially tell myself that I am in an LD.  Then I begin rubbing my hands together just like Raduga's Deepening technique.  This morning I also started rubbing my face, which seems to work even better.

Eventually (and pretty quickly) I find myself in an LD.  It is exactly like what Raduga says to do if you roll out of your body without vision, only I do it before I've fully gotten out.  I think it only works because I tell myself I am in an LD.  It's probably just a form of "teleportation."

I feel hesitant to recommend since Raduga warns against deepening before exiting in his books.  I feel like it would be better to separate first.

It is kind of like "limb creation" except that I pretty much create my whole body from my arms.

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## Sahashara

Please correct me if I´m wrong... by reading the book I understood that to use indirect techniques effectively you have to sleep for at least 6 hours and then wake up with a timer, then, after that, you´ll have to go back to sleep and then wake up at will after each dream or REM cycle... but how are we going to wake up at will after a REM cycle? This is not clear to me...

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## Mzzkc

> Please correct me if I´m wrong... by reading the book I understood that to use indirect techniques effectively you have to sleep for at least 6 hours and then wake up with a timer, then, after that, you´ll have to go back to sleep and then wake up at will after each dream or REM cycle... but how are we going to wake up at will after a REM cycle? This is not clear to me...



You already naturally wake up at the end of each REM cycle. The trick is recognizing those awakenings. Mantras before sleep tend to help.

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## mcwillis

> Please correct me if I´m wrong... by reading the book I understood that to use indirect techniques effectively you have to sleep for at least 6 hours and then wake up with a timer, then, after that, you´ll have to go back to sleep and then wake up at will after each dream or REM cycle... but how are we going to wake up at will after a REM cycle? This is not clear to me...



Mzzkc is quite correct.  However, Mr. Raduga suggests not to do this though in early training until you have some experience of success with using Indirect Techniques with WBTB after six hurs sleep.  I have started using them at the end of REM cycles during the night and having great success but only because I have a working experience of using the techniques during WBTB after a night's sleep.

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## Sahashara

So, during my first atempts I may use the indirect techniques using a timer (wbtb, because I´ll have to move my body)

My point is how to train to perceive I´m awake after every REM cycle. Mzzkc told about mantras, as an example, to help. What are Mr Raduga suggestions about this subject?

I admit I never thought this could even be possible. It´s the same as autosuggestion, like, for example: "I will wake up after 6 hours of sleep, I will wake up after 6 hours of sleep, I will...." something like this?

I´m really sorry. I know this sounds extremely newbie question but, at least in this moment, Mr Raduga approach to lucid dreams looks so difficult in practise (comparing with all other techniques in dreamviews - mild, fild, thousands of different wilds, dild, etc).

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## LawPaw

Actually Mr. Raduga's approach is best because it is so easy.  At least if you want to be able to consistently have results at will.

I think you'll be surprised just how powerful intention is with sleep.  If you focus on waking up at the end of sleep cycles as you fall asleep you will probably naturally just do it.

My biggest problem at first is that I would wake up 90 minutes after falling asleep every time, then find it difficult to fall back asleep.  I was trying to WILD since I hadn't moved and didn't know it had only been 90 minutes.

Find an alarm that automatically shuts off after several seconds and you won't have to worry about ruining a good awakening without moving.  

What I do is to set an MP3 7 second alarm for about 6 hours after I fall asleep.  When it goes off I try to WILD.  If I don't get into the Phase after 4 or 5 cycles of 4 or 5 techniques I get up for several minutes then fall back asleep with the same 7 second alarm going off every half an hour until I need to get up for work.

It's probably better to wake up naturally, but during the week that is just too difficult.

I think I am going to start using the ramp alarm cycle form lucidology 101 for a while though.

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## mcwillis

> So, during my first atempts I may use the indirect techniques using a timer (wbtb, because I´ll have to move my body)



No don't use a timer, it will ruin your chances by 50-75%





> My point is how to train to perceive I´m awake after every REM cycle. Mzzkc told about mantras, as an example, to help. What are Mr Raduga suggestions about this subject?
> I admit I never thought this could even be possible. It´s the same as autosuggestion, like, for example: "I will wake up after 6 hours of sleep, I will wake up after 6 hours of sleep, I will...." something like this?



Yes use auto suggestion.






> I´m really sorry. I know this sounds extremely newbie question but, at least in this moment, Mr Raduga approach to lucid dreams looks so difficult in practise (comparing with all other techniques in dreamviews - mild, fild, thousands of different wilds, dild, etc).



This is the easiest method there is.  50% of people have success within 3 days.

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## mcwillis

> I think I am going to start using the ramp alarm cycle form lucidology 101 for a while though.



I had a pure DILD the very first time I used the four minute ramp timer, though if others reading this are confused this is a completely different method.

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## Sahashara

Thanks for all the information. Now that you helped me to understand better, I feel I have the basics to start right away. Anyway, the good point using this approach is that I don´t see any contradiction about using mild (the technique I´m applying right now). So, I´ll practise to the point that if I don´t remember that I´m dreaming inside the dream, I´ll have another chance as soon as the rem cycle ends and I wake up.

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## LawPaw

> 1.) Does phase=Sleep Paralysis?



No.  The Phase is the authors term for lucid dreams.  He invented a new term because he felt that all the other terms tend to be surrounded by mysticism and can cloud people perception about what he is talking about.




> 2.) What is the main difference between LD induction and OBE induction?



The main difference is that an OBE is specifically entered into from a waking state.  It is a WILD (wake initiated lucid dream).  Usually you have a sense of leaving your body and enter the phase (LD) in a dream simulated version of where your physical body is. 

This isn't always true since "observing images" can put you in the phase somewhere else or you may "teleport" directly out of your body to another location.




> From what I understood, you can't get OBE if you haven't got into SP, as you can in LD. You can do reality checks in real life so it will carry on to your dreams and you will get an LD even if you haven't got there through SP (I guess it happened to me before as I replied in this thread)



That could be technically true (in the sense that the body is in SP for all lucid dreams), but you certainly can get an OBE without fully sensing a full SP.  Don't focus too much on SP.  





> 3.) Does OBE mean that you will ALWAYS see yourself in YOUR bedroom?



No.  I haven't seen myself in my OBE's.




> 3.) Can you create your environment in OBE? For example, you see yourself in bed, open the door and you're not in your house anymore



Keep reading.  He'll get to that better than we can.

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## mcwillis

> 1.) Does phase=Sleep Paralysis?



No.  As LawPaw has said 'The Phase' is a generic term encompassing lucid dreams and the phenomena of one's consciousness exiting the body





> 2.) What is the main difference between LD induction and OBE induction?



That depends on what type of OBE you want, I would suggest researching astral and etheric projection as they are different.





> 3.) Does OBE mean that you will ALWAYS see yourself in YOUR bedroom?



When I have an etheric projection, yes I do see my physical body in bed.  Not with an astral projection.





> 3.) Can you create your environment in OBE? For example, you see yourself in bed, open the door and you're not in your house anymore



 In an etheric projection you can only observe your surroundings.  In an astral projection you have an astral body that you can use.

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## halfer

*mcwillis*, I'm having problems. It's been a week and a half since I started reading this book and I had no success whatsoever. I had only one dream and even that one wasn't a WILD. I realized myself in a dream somehow. I'm not reading the book further at the moment because I'm afraid I will forget everything I have read by the time I will get a real WILD. 
   I'm trying almost every night. Yes, night. WBTB is not suitable for me because I don't have an alarm that will stop ringing after a minute, which means *I WILL* have to move.
   Can you give me some advice?

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## Irken

I just found a website containing the entire book without the need to download it.

School of Out-of-Body Travel. A Practical Guidebook | by Michael Raduga

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## moongrass

I have not been very committed to this method  because I was torn between methods but after last night I think I am only going to focus on this method. 

Just as planned I woke up without moving I tried to wiggle my arms and it seemed to work a little but then I tried to spin and did like 360 in my bed so I rolled out of bed used deepening techniques and had a long successful LD!

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## mcwillis

> I have not been very committed to this method  because I was torn between methods but after last night I think I am only going to focus on this method. 
> 
> Just as planned I woke up without moving I tried to wiggle my arms and it seemed to work a little but then I tried to spin and did like 360 in my bed so I rolled out of bed used deepening techniques and had a long successful LD!



 :woohoo:   :woohoo:   :woohoo:

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## moongrass

yes, thanks I was so excited. I knew it would work because so many people swear by it, but it was so easy and it was a very good quality LD!

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## mcwillis

> yes, thanks I was so excited. I knew it would work because so many people swear by it, but it was so easy and it was a very good quality LD!



I hope that you give this thread a good vote then!!!

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## moongrass

what do you mean give it a good vote?

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## mcwillis

> what do you mean give it a good vote?



At the top of this page, just above the first post, on the right hand side it says 'Rate This Thread'.  Click on it and click on whatever radio button you choose and then click on the 'Vote Now' button.

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## Sarge_Maximus2

> *mcwillis*, I'm having problems. It's been a week and a half since I started reading this book and I had no success whatsoever. I had only one dream and even that one wasn't a WILD. I realized myself in a dream somehow. I'm not reading the book further at the moment because I'm afraid I will forget everything I have read by the time I will get a real WILD. 
>    I'm trying almost every night. Yes, night. WBTB is not suitable for me because I don't have an alarm that will stop ringing after a minute, which means *I WILL* have to move.
>    Can you give me some advice?



 I have the same situation except for the realized dream part. Mostly just a lot of wierd dreams and agitated movements when I'm awake. It seems to be bothering me that I'm not being successful, and the more I read the book, the more questions I have, especially when I try and have such resounding failure.

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## Flyer62

I'm not sure that anyone even got my last reply but I am hoping. My thing is I think that I have had "almost WILDS" a lot but never really knew they had a name until someone turned me on to this website. Now after hearing that people are trying to think of time and things before they get into that faze might be a mistake. It's easy to lose the naturalness of it all. If you are thinking of structure when you are falling asleep couldn't that be detrimental to the initial purpose?

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## mcwillis

> *mcwillis*, I'm having problems. It's been a week and a half since I started reading this book and I had no success whatsoever. I had only one dream and even that one wasn't a WILD. I realized myself in a dream somehow. I'm not reading the book further at the moment because I'm afraid I will forget everything I have read by the time I will get a real WILD. 
>    I'm trying almost every night. Yes, night. WBTB is not suitable for me because I don't have an alarm that will stop ringing after a minute, which means *I WILL* have to move.
>    Can you give me some advice?



The lucid you had was a DILD.  I don't understand why you have stopped reading the book.  It is crucial to read and re-read the book as you will most likely make mistakes and hamper your progress.  Can I ask why you can't do WBTB?  What are you trying at night?  If it is Indirect Techniques then don't do them at night, it is extremely unlikely that they will work and you will just be arresting any progress.

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## mcwillis

> and the more I read the book, the more questions I have, especially when I try and have such resounding failure.



Quote me if I am wrong but I believe I asked you to post exactly what you are doing from start to finish so that I can see exactly what you are doing and pinpoint any blatant mistakes you are making.  The above statement you have made does not make any sense, on the contrary it should answer your questions.  Have you read the workbook yet as it is easier to digest than the textbook?

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## mcwillis

> I'm not sure that anyone even got my last reply but I am hoping. My thing is I think that I have had "almost WILDS" a lot but never really knew they had a name until someone turned me on to this website. Now after hearing that people are trying to think of time and things before they get into that faze might be a mistake. It's easy to lose the naturalness of it all. If you are thinking of structure when you are falling asleep couldn't that be detrimental to the initial purpose?



From what you have just said I can clearly see that you haven't studied the textbook or the workbook.  You are not to do this whilst falling asleep, if you do you will set yourself up for failure.  Moongrass had another attempt at this and had immediate success because he is clearly studying the source material.  When you say 'time and things' what do you mean as there is something of fundamental importance that you don't understand?  Describe exactly what you are doing and I will see what mistakes you are making guaranteeing your failure.

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## army0193

This thread is LEGIT it will work you just have to read the book. Last night I applied the same methods but sadly I forget to separated myself from my body to have an OBE so it did nothing and I fell back asleep. But it will work that was only my first night and I just read 25 pages the 20minutes before I fell asleep. This is very simple to learn and it come with great rewards.  :wink2:  Its also free  :smiley:

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## Sarge_Maximus2

> Quote me if I am wrong but I believe I asked you to post exactly what you are doing from start to finish so that I can see exactly what you are doing and pinpoint any blatant mistakes you are making.  The above statement you have made does not make any sense, on the contrary it should answer your questions.  Have you read the workbook yet as it is easier to digest than the textbook?



 Yeah you did, and I replied my technique. I'm sorry for the outburst, it was late and I'm really getting annoyed at how little time I have to practice this thing and when I do have time I'm so obsessed to the point of agitation with getting it to work, that I fail. I'll be getting an alarm clock so that I can set my phone to one that does not keep ringing, that way I won't risk missing work but can have a set time to dedicate to practicing every morning.

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## mcwillis

> Yeah you did, and I replied my technique. I'm sorry for the outburst, it was late and I'm really getting annoyed at how little time I have to practice this thing and when I do have time I'm so obsessed to the point of agitation with getting it to work, that I fail. I'll be getting an alarm clock so that I can set my phone to one that does not keep ringing, that way I won't risk missing work but can have a set time to dedicate to practicing every morning.



Being agitated is going to be detrimental.  I was like that a couple of years ago and it was really counterproductive.  I used an alarm for the first few weeks of this method and I failed miserably.  I ignored Mr. Raduga's words and decided that I couldn't awaken without moving so I made a custom alarm clock that worked well in waking me and I was able to stay still but the sound stimulus ruined the state of mind necessary for success and I failed.  It was only until I decided to be patient and do everything by the book that the method started to work.

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## moongrass

> At the top of this page, just above the first post, on the right hand side it says 'Rate This Thread'.  Click on it and click on whatever radio button you choose and then click on the 'Vote Now' button.



wow, never knew that was there, haha!

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## Sarge_Maximus2

> Being agitated is going to be detrimental.  I was like that a couple of years ago and it was really counterproductive.  I used an alarm for the first few weeks of this method and I failed miserably.  I ignored Mr. Raduga's words and decided that I couldn't awaken without moving so I made a custom alarm clock that worked well in waking me and I was able to stay still but the sound stimulus ruined the state of mind necessary for success and I failed.  It was only until I decided to be patient and do everything by the book that the method started to work.



Yeah I know what you mean. I'm only going to have my continuous alarm for my work wake up time, but I'm gonna have a one-ring alarm like in crazyinsane's technique to wake me up after 6 hours. While following the other instructions in the book of course.  :tongue2:

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## mcwillis

> Yeah I know what you mean. I'm only going to have my continuous alarm for my work wake up time, but I'm gonna have a one-ring alarm like in crazyinsane's technique to wake me up after 6 hours. While following the other instructions in the book of course.



Well he says you can still succeed but with diminished chances of success.  I take it that you are unable to go to bed a few hours early the night before so that you can have plenty of time to do it by the book the next morning?

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## Sarge_Maximus2

> Well he says you can still succeed but with diminished chances of success.  I take it that you are unable to go to bed a few hours early the night before so that you can have plenty of time to do it by the book the next morning?



Well not really, I enjoy my free time. You're saying that even a single-shot alarm will be bad for my chances? I can't very well start sleeping my life away just to try for a WILD can I?

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## mcwillis

> Well not really, I enjoy my free time. You're saying that even a single-shot alarm will be bad for my chances? I can't very well start sleeping my life away just to try for a WILD can I?



Well do you want to have free time the night before or do you want to go to bed a few hours earlier so that you can have lucid dreams before work?  I'm not being pedantic, just trying to gauge how much you really want to do this.

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## LawPaw

> Well he says you can still succeed but with diminished chances of success.



An alarm won't diminish your chances of success as long as you don't try to WILD when it goes off.  In otherwords, I believe it is acceptable and even recommended to set an alarm for 6 hours after you fall to sleep, get up completely (go to the bathroom, ect.), then go back to sleep with the intention of waking up without moving.

I would just avoid wasting energy trying to WILD after an alarm wake up.

What I try to do is to set an alarm for 6 hours (which rings for 15 seconds).  I then wake up without moving and try to immediately separate.  If I can't, then I just get up and go to the bathroom or get a drink of water.  Then I go back to bed with my alarm set for a time necessary to get to work at a decent hour (my work schedule is flexible).

You will certainly be better off waking up based purely on intention because the body knows best when to wake up.  I wouldn't waste too much effort WILD'ing after an alarm wake up, but it takes little effort to attempt a separation and you are most likely going to separate in the first few seconds anyway.

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## LawPaw

Yes and no.  In my experience focusing on the structure won't work, but you need the structure to be successful.  The key is getting enough practice so that you structure your attempts with absolutely no thought about the structure itself.  It becomes second nature.  That is the key to success. 

The structure is means to an end, not the end itself.  Like Raduga says, about 25% of the successful times you won't even need it.  You can just seperate immediately after waking up without moving.

I always wake up without moving now, even when I'm not trying to WILD.  It's just part of my routine now.  

P.S. It was very helpful yesterday.  I had the stomach flu, so I spent most of the day in bed.  I didn't try to WILD at all, but waking up without moving kept me in a state of SP sufficient that I couldn't feel any of the sickness in my gut.  I could lie there for over 10 minutes before I even got a hint of how sick my body was.  Most of the time I fell back asleep in this time period.  It helped me get more rest than normal, which I think helped me get better faster.

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## SKA

I think I should print this book out, page by page and bind it into a little book or put it into a map.
Reading, especially about Lucid Dream Techniques, I prefer to do with a book in bed.

I need to learn more about "the phase" and how to achieve it, before I can start practicing it.

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## mcwillis

> An alarm won't diminish your chances of success as long as you don't try to WILD when it goes off.  In otherwords, I believe it is acceptable and even recommended to set an alarm for 6 hours after you fall to sleep, get up completely (go to the bathroom, ect.), then go back to sleep with the intention of waking up without moving.



I think you misunderstand me.  Yes, use an alarm to wake up after 6 hours.  Then stay up for a while.  How long depends on your level of sleep resistance and ability to fall back to sleep again.  Then Mr. Raduga says go back to bed and implement Indirect Techniques when you awaken naturally, without any alarm, over the next two to four hours.

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## Sarge_Maximus2

> Well do you want to have free time the night before or do you want to go to bed a few hours earlier so that you can have lucid dreams before work?  I'm not being pedantic, just trying to gauge how much you really want to do this.



It's got more to do with spending time with my family. I do want to do this, but because my only successes with WILD's were with crazyinsane's methods, I tend to think it might work for me again, that's all, that and I wake up to early to spend any time with my family at all as it is.

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## mcwillis

I see.  Yes of course family must come first.  In that case make the best of your situation.  Good luck  :smiley:

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## LawPaw

Do you have any days off where you can go to bed earlier or get up earlier?  Even if you can only practice this method once or twice a week it would be beneficial.

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## Sarge_Maximus2

> Do you have any days off where you can go to bed earlier or get up earlier?  Even if you can only practice this method once or twice a week it would be beneficial.



Yeah I've got the weekends. I'll be doing it the way suggested at those times, but I kinda hoped I could do it throughout the week as well. Oh well.

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## mcwillis

> Yeah I've got the weekends. I'll be doing it the way suggested at those times, but I kinda hoped I could do it throughout the week as well. Oh well.



Once you have gained success at the weekends then you could progress to doing it at the end of REM cycles during the night throughout the week.  I find these excellent times.

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## army0193

> Once you have gained success at the weekends then you could progress to doing it at the end of REM cycles during the night throughout the week.  I find these excellent times.



Yeah those are the times I try to practice. They work the best for me but latly (well this is only my 2nd night) I haven't been able to wake up to be still so I guess I have to work on that. The first night I did it I imeditly did Phantom Wrigling for 5 seconds and freed my left leg. Then I made a rookie mistake. I was going for and OBE but I forgot to to the separation technique  ::shock::  From there on out I have been having a hard time waking up without moving. I think part of it is because my mantra is to long "I will wake up after every one of my dreams with my eyes closed and I will not move a muscle" What mantras did you use (if any) to not move when you woke up? Thanks this is a great technique. My goal is to wake up without moving by the end of the week.

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## mcwillis

> What mantras did you use (if any) to not move when you woke up? Thanks this is a great technique. My goal is to wake up without moving by the end of the week.



My mantra is, 'When I wake up I will keep my body perfectly still.'  Obviously we have to make an affirmation that is comfortable to us.  Yes ideally it is best to keep it short and to the point.  Thank Mr. Raduga!!!

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## army0193

Yes Thanks Mr Raduga!! And thank you for posting this technique on DV :smiley:

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## LawPaw

> "I will wake up after every one of my dreams with my eyes closed and I will not move a muscle"



Careful with this one.  I had a similar intention when I started (similar to mantra) and woke up every day after exactly 90 minutes of sleep.  I was never sure if it had been 6 hours so I would try indirect techniques.  I had some bad insomnia that first two weeks.

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## army0193

> Careful with this one.  I had a similar intention when I started (similar to mantra) and woke up every day after exactly 90 minutes of sleep.  I was never sure if it had been 6 hours so I would try indirect techniques.  I had some bad insomnia that first two weeks.



Oh ok thanks for the warning. I think im going to use a new mantra now.

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## halfer

> The lucid you had was a DILD.  I don't understand why you have stopped reading the book.  It is crucial to read and re-read the book as you will most likely make mistakes and hamper your progress.  Can I ask why you can't do WBTB?  What are you trying at night?  If it is Indirect Techniques then don't do them at night, it is extremely unlikely that they will work and you will just be arresting any progress.



I will move after waking up if I will use the alarm. I'm trying some direct techniques at night, no success. So it's better to use indirect techniques in an afternoon nap?

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## LawPaw

> I will move after waking up if I will use the alarm. I'm trying some direct techniques at night, no success. So it's better to use indirect techniques in an afternoon nap?



I would not try direct techniques unless you have alot of experience.  Even then, never try them at night.  The beginning of the night is a terrible time to try to have LD's for a variety of reasons.

I would try waking up with your alarm after 6 hours (or 4.5 hours if you are really crunched for time) then setting the alarm for two hour later.  Or whenever you NEED to get up for the day.  Go back to sleep for the 2 hours with the strong intention of waking up without moving several times within those two hours.  People usually are able to wake up naturally based on strong intentions.

If that absolutely won't work after trying for a few weeks, find a way to have an alarm ring for about 15 seconds every 20 minutes or so AFTER you've slept for as close to 6 hours as possible.  For example, have a 15 second alarm go off after 6 hours on your phone or computer placed in your bedroom.  You can also use a stereo.  I have used 15 second alarm MP3s that are spaced between hour and 20 minute dead noise intervals (on my ipod playlist).

It is much better to wake up without an alarm because an alarm will almost certainly take you far enough out of sleep to require a good deal of indirect techniques.  If you wake naturally you are much more likely to be able to seperate immediately or after little effort.

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## mcwillis

> I will move after waking up if I will use the alarm. I'm trying some direct techniques at night, no success. So it's better to use indirect techniques in an afternoon nap?



Using an alarm will ruin your chances by 50-75%.  Natural awakening after WBTB is the ideal.  Mr. Raduga says very emphatically don't practice Direct Techniques under any circumstances until you have plenty of experience of Indirect Techniques combined with WBTB.  In his experience this will seriously arrest your progress.  If you want maximum success in a short period of training time you really need to study the books.

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## LawPaw

> Mr. Raduga says very emphatically don't practice Direct Techniques under any circumstances until you have plenty of experience of Indirect Techniques combined with WBTB.  In his experience this will seriously arrest your progress.



Mr. Raduga and all the other experts, particularly at night before bed.  I wouldn't try it then even with plenty of experience.

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## mcwillis

> Mr. Raduga and all the other experts, particularly at night before bed.  I wouldn't try it then even with plenty of experience.



Indeed, at night before bed is the worst time to WILD.  I nearly did manage to once.  It is very hard.

----------


## moongrass

I try just about every night and have never fully succeeded. I like to try just for practice and it also usually helps me to get DILDs.

----------


## mcwillis

> I try just about every night and have never fully succeeded. I like to try just for practice and it also usually helps me to get DILDs.



Even for pratctice he vehemently opposes this.  I don't see how praticing Direct Techniques can induce DILD's at all dude.

----------


## moongrass

> Even for pratctice he vehemently opposes this.  I don't see how praticing Direct Techniques can induce DILD's at all dude.



I didn't realize that he said not to at all? Also, very often after trying to WILD I will later dream about trying to WILD and then become lucid.

----------


## mcwillis

> I didn't realize that he said not to at all?



Yes he said even practicing Direct Techniques prior to gaining experience of Indirect Techniques is unadvisable.





> Also, very often after trying to WILD I will later dream about trying to WILD and then become lucid.



Sorry moongrass.  I understand now  :smiley:

----------


## LawPaw

> I didn't realize that he said not to at all? Also, very often after trying to WILD I will later dream about trying to WILD and then become lucid.



Mr. Raduga strongly advises against this because it can zap your energy for attempts that have a good chance.

Just set an alarm for 4.5 hours or 6 hours after you fall asleep and then try to WILD if you feel like you need to try it as a direct technique.

Doing it as you fall asleep is also a good way to get major insomnia.

----------


## moongrass

> Just set an alarm for 4.5 hours or 6 hours after you fall asleep and then try to WILD if you feel like you need to try it as a direct technique.



I usually wake up on my own after several hours of sleep, so I will not need an alarm. Than if I move should I try to use a direct technique from there or should I get up and move around first? I usually just fall back asleep.

----------


## mcwillis

> I usually wake up on my own after several hours of sleep, so I will not need an alarm. Than if I move should I try to use a direct technique from there or should I get up and move around first? I usually just fall back asleep.



Mr. Raduga says the best way for beginners is to use the deferred method as he puts it, i.e. wake back to bed.

----------


## Sahashara

To begin, I´m really sorry for my weak english.

I still can´t go to phase, but I think I´m close...

When I first read about waking up after each rem cycle, at first I felt extremely skeptical about the subject. I didn´t even know that we wake up after each dream and, think about using this to trigger LD´s was even less possible for me. 

But I read the book, post some doubts here and motivated myself to try. So, I´m using the techniques for about one week. I´m not luck as Raduga´s students but I started to see some improvements. At first I began, every night, as soon as I went to bed, to think my affirmations to wake up after every REM cycle/dream and stay still. To my surprise, I began to wake up at least two times during the night. Then I have to start made some adjustments to my own process, because I was trying to stay still without opening my eyes, but I one of those people that is (as) used to made movements and open the eyes his all life and I was forgetting to do that as soon as I was awakening. But I insisted.

I perceived that to have a positive attitude towards this subject is beneficial even during the day. I now affirm to myself during the day, many times, my mantra (that I will wake up after each dream/rem cycle, not move, not open my eyes and I will go into phase etc).

Then I continued to wake one or two times during the night, but usually forgetting what to do or where to began. Then in my fourth day, after my usual affirmation/mantra I slept and woke up during the night but for a fraction of second I remembered to not move or open my eyes. For the first time in my life (lol). It not seem very much of improvement, but for me it is, since I was used to did the opposite during all my life and until some days I never thought it was possible to change this. Well, after waking up I immediately tried to levitate and roll over (the first 5 seconds). Nothing happened. Then I started the cycles but I ended sleeping in the middle of the first one...

In the last days I´m still using myself to the new situation of waking during the night and not move. Sometimes I forget, but I´m improving. And finally, last night, I woke up without moving or opening the eyes, tried to roll over and without sucess I started to look at images... and then I saw flashes of intense light moving, faces of people and some landscapes forming in front of me.... not so vivid, more like a clouded scene... then I slept! lol

Well I think I´m near, but I see I´m having results each day. In my opinion true intent and true motivation are what help me. I suggest people to take a special look over this.

----------


## mcwillis

Well done Sahashara.  You don't have to apologise about your English.  In fact it is very good.  You have clearly studied the book.  If you can sleep for six hours, get up for a while and then go back to sleep and do everything you have done as described above.  You are falling asleep because you are doing this during the night rather than after a night's sleep which Mr. Raduga doesn't recommend for beginners as your body needs to be fully rested.  I had this trouble in the morning and his instructions are that we must be more aggresive with our cycles of Indirect Techniques so that we don't fall asleep.  You are close to success  :smiley:

----------


## Sahashara

hi  mcwillis,

In fact I also understand the importance of the deferred method but during week because of a full-time job I can´t do it so I only may give it a try during weekends...

Now I would like to ask you something I didn´t understand very well and maybe in your practices you have faced it... Raduga says one of the best moments to  try a phase is after a full night sleep, but I don´t understand how can anyone goes into phase in this situation because after a good night sleep we are supposed to be fully refreshed...  so how can is possible to leave the body when our physical body wants to leave the bed ?  lol

----------


## mcwillis

> hi  mcwillis,
> 
> In fact I also understand the importance of the deferred method but during week because of a full-time job I can´t do it so I only may give it a try during weekends...
> 
> Now I would like to ask you something I didn´t understand very well and maybe in your practices you have faced it... Raduga says one of the best moments to  try a phase is after a full night sleep, but I don´t understand how can anyone goes into phase in this situation because after a good night sleep we are supposed to be fully refreshed...  so how can is possible to leave the body when our physical body wants to leave the bed ?  lol



I think I understand your question.  That is why we have to train ourselves to awaken without moving, even opening our eyes lol.  It is a great opportunity as well as using the deferred method shortly afterwards.  The only problem with this is that most people need an alarm to awaken hence why he stresses we use the deferred method, i.e. wake back to bed as alarms can ruin our chances of success with Indirect Techniques.  It is refreshing to see someone who has clearly studied the book rather than just reading it or skimming through it.

----------


## Sahashara

mcwillis

Actually, what I was trying to understand is  the possibility to enter the phase state even after 8 hours of full sleep, because after so much time sleeping I think its going to be very difficult to enter an altered state os consciousness because our mind is totaly awake... otherwise we could stay in bed for even more cycles of sleep and pass the day just doing that.. but there is a natural ending for those cycles (the 8 hours for the majority of population). So what can we attain doing the technique at this very moment?

----------


## Motumz

I'll go ahead and check it out, thanks.

----------


## halfer

*army0193* that worked  :smiley: . The problem is, I didn't remember to begin indirect techniques and just went to sleep  :tongue2:

----------


## army0193

Aww that stinks. I still didn't use it yet because I'm working on WBTB/WILD because I heard that you can't dream share with OBE's.

----------


## LawPaw

> I still didn't use it yet because I'm working on WBTB/WILD because I heard that you can't dream share with OBE's.



Where did you hear this?  There is no reason that this would be true since a WILD is essentially a OBE.

Also, this method works just as well for WILDing as OBE's.  I haven't had a true OBE from this method (as in perceiving my physical body in the phase, my bed has always been empty).  Observing images will put you into an LD without exiting your body (or perceiving an exit).

----------


## army0193

> Where did you hear this?  There is no reason that this would be true since a WILD is essentially a OBE.
> 
> Also, this method works just as well for WILDing as OBE's.  I haven't had a true OBE from this method (as in perceiving my physical body in the phase, my bed has always been empty).  Observing images will put you into an LD without exiting your body (or perceiving an exit).



It will! Thanks I will definitely go back to the method because it is such a good one. You wanted to know where I heard that. Surprisingly  heard it all over the internet  :Oh noes:  .

----------


## LawPaw

I had my first perceived separation from this technique this morning "rolling out" immediately after waking without moving.  No indirect techniques or even forced falling asleep.  I just woke up and rolled out.  Unfortunately I couldn't gain sight after standing there for several seconds performing deepening techniques (mostly rubbing my hands, face and body).  I suppose I should have tried diving down, but that seems difficult without sight (I have done so with sight a couple of times).

I ended up just falling asleep for another attempt.  It's weird that I had a sense of the visuals of my room, but not vision.  I guess it would be how you would feel immediately after closing your eyes in a room you knew well, then trying to walk around.

It's the first time deepening techniques didn't quickly give me vision.  I know I made mistakes in not trying other deepening techniques like feeling the room itself or diving down.

I've had many phases, but all of them have been more like regular WILD LD's in that I didn't perceive separation but simply came into a scene.

----------


## moongrass

> I ended up just falling asleep for another attempt.  It's weird that I had a sense of the visuals of my room, but not vision.  I guess it would be how you would feel immediately after closing your eyes in a room you knew well, then trying to walk around.



I have done that in a LD. It is weird how you cannot see but you still can perceive where you are like some other sense is at work.

----------


## halfer

Almost had a WILD this morning. It was 11:30 AM and I got the visuals and vibrations. But after some time I was carried away because I tried to force my brain to create the dream I want. The thing is, i don't remember myself lying in bed before it. Indirect technique almost worked, though not consciously...

----------


## Jay12341235

I don't remember how, but after I attempted this technique a few vague times this morning, I found myself in a DILD. Coincidence or not, I'll keep trying for a WILD or whatever the term would be for this

----------


## Sahashara

Finally, this last night I had 2 very interesting LD´s using this technique. It´s been a very long time since I had my last LD´s... I´ll stay with this technique, it´s working wonders for me, I´m even getting a lot of sleep paralysis, something I couldn´t with other techniques.

----------


## mcwillis

:woohoo:   :woohoo:   :woohoo:

----------


## Sahashara

Thanks Mcwillis  :smiley: 

Tell me, do you think it´s possible to phase after a full night rest (8 - 10 hours of sleep), when we feel completely refreshed? Raduga says it´s possible to phase in this condition but I didn´t have the chance to try by myself yet.

----------


## cuckoo

I find the style of this book painful, but it's very, very useful, and I see daily progress in my WILDing attempts. Thank you, mcwillis.

----------


## mcwillis

> I find the style of this book painful, but it's very, very useful, and I see daily progress in my WILDing attempts. Thank you, mcwillis.



You could read the workbook instead as it is easier to read than the textbook, and then go back to the textbook for further clarification  :smiley:

----------


## mcwillis

> Thanks Mcwillis 
> 
> Tell me, do you think it´s possible to phase after a full night rest (8 - 10 hours of sleep), when we feel completely refreshed? Raduga says it´s possible to phase in this condition but I didn´t have the chance to try by myself yet.



You could, but after that much sleep you might not be able to go back to sleep again when you do WBTB  :smiley:

----------


## Clairvoyance

I will try to read this book after I finish reading my current one, which is "Exploring the world of Lucid Dreaming".

Speaking of which, has anyone tried out the book I'm reading? Any thoughs on it? I'm about halfway through and I've learned some valuable info. Still no LDs from it though.

----------


## moongrass

> I will try to read this book after I finish reading my current one, which is "Exploring the world of Lucid Dreaming".
> 
> Speaking of which, has anyone tried out the book I'm reading? Any thoughts on it? I'm about halfway through and I've learned some valuable info. Still no LDs from it though.



I personally really enjoy that book. I think it is the standard for lucid dreaming.

----------


## SkinnyBill

Funny Enough, I did the exact thing coincidentally a few days before reading the book.

I woke up in the middle of the nigh, and then considered getting up. I felt a bit lazy so I diddn't. Then I heard the high pitched noise, and thought "hmm, I have had this before in SP attempts, stay still"(in the book, it is called Listening In). They got quite intense, and it felt as if the sound engulfed my body  :tongue2: 

Next thing I know, I'm in exactly the same place, but its broad daylight. I diddn't know what to do so i just spent the whole time walking through walls and things xD

----------


## Spyguy

Thanks for the tip dude ! I've downloaded it and it is a VERY good book. It doesn't only feature indirect techniques (DEILD), but also direct techniques, dream conciousness etc. I really advice it to everyone reading this      

Again, thanks for the tip  ::D:

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## r2d2651

Will try and post results this weekend...

----------


## mcwillis

> Thanks for the tip dude ! I've downloaded it and it is a VERY good book. It doesn't only feature indirect techniques (DEILD), but also direct techniques, dream conciousness etc. I really advice it to everyone reading this      
> 
> Again, thanks for the tip



Well the books represent ten years of working with thousands of people to give us precise instructions for practical results.

----------


## mcwillis

Statistics from the 3 day seminars conducted in London, England:

Average results for a 3-day seminar: 40-70% of participants enter the phase(OBE, lucid) from 1 to 6 times.  For centuries, it was believed that this practice required many years of training — now only a couple of days are needed!  Awesome!!!

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## army0193

I'm going to fry and go back to this technique. It worked for me but for some reason I stopped. This worked onnce for me but I think I should start this again.  :smiley:

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## Marsupilama

hey mcwillis, 

I have a question..I downloaded the ebook from his website, but I got two files. You always refer to a 'workbook' and a 'textbook'. Which is which? I only have School_of_Out-of-Body_Travel and Ultimate_Yoga_The_Technology_of_the_2012_Transform  ation. Then I have another question...I tried it today, and even remembered not to move upon waking up. But I woke up in a position where I had difficulties breathing, and so I couldn't quiet concentrate on the techniques, do you know if I could do anything about that, besides telling my body to wake up in the right position?

----------


## HeritageDreamer

Thank you for the reference. This is amazing reading material.  :smiley:

----------


## mcwillis

> hey mcwillis, 
> 
> I have a question..I downloaded the ebook from his website, but I got two files. You always refer to a 'workbook' and a 'textbook'. Which is which? I only have School_of_Out-of-Body_Travel and Ultimate_Yoga_The_Technology_of_the_2012_Transform  ation. Then I have another question...I tried it today, and even remembered not to move upon waking up. But I woke up in a position where I had difficulties breathing, and so I couldn't quiet concentrate on the techniques, do you know if I could do anything about that, besides telling my body to wake up in the right position?



School_of_Out-of-Body_Travel - Textbook

Ultimate_Yoga - Workbook

Ive had that problem before.  If you are very uncomfortable move into a better position.  Your chances are greatly reduced but you can start with 5-10 seconds of forced falling asleep.  Then do 15 seconds phantom wiggling, then 15 seconds listening in, then 15 seconds observing images.  If nothing happens then do 4 cycles of 3-5 Indirect Techniques of 3-5 seconds duration as normal for each Indirect technique.

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## LSDreamer

Very good material in these books for sure.  Just need to be more strict with doing it, is my problem. None the less, the reading is well worth it, just to get another idea/approach.  More tools for the belt.

----------


## Marsupilama

mcwillis, thanks for your answer, and thanks for bringing this technique to my attention!

I wanted to finish the whole book by the end of this week, to get started on the technique next week. But I figured waking up without movement is crucial, so I decided to start practicing that already. I have an app that wakes me up and goes into snooze after 5 seconds. It worked like 2 or 3 times but I wasn't able to enter the phase. Then, the day before yesterday, I woke up from the alarm and was still really tired. But I thought hey, you might as well just go for it. I tried seperation first, which didn't work. Then phantom wiggling, which didn't work either. Then I tried imagining a sensation and all of the sudden, my body started to vibrate and I was like whow, wtf, nice! I knew seperation was not possible yet, but then I heard a hypnagogic sound and I immediatelly switched techniques to listening in and tried to amplify the sound. But instead the vibrating just got stronger and somehow I had a feeling, that seperation was possible now. I told myself well, all or nothing now, and tried to seperate by lifting my upper body up (I was laying on my chest). And it worked! I wasn't seperated all the way yet, but I knew, when I open my eyes now, I will see myself lying in bed in front of me. So I opened my eyes and there I was lying in front of me  ::D:  ::D: 

I got up and had a very crisp lucid dream (first one within 2 years, second one total), that lasted 15-20 dream minutes (7 minutes in WL, I checkt alarm clock after waking up) in which I was able to recall some goals and tried to accomplish them! Even though I didn't use any of the deepening techniques (I didn't know that at the time). 

yesterday I woke up without movement around 9 but I couldn't enter the phase since I heard ppl running around and it was pretty bright. And today I had another shot, but for some reason it didn't work. I remembered the dream I just awoke from and the last thing I did in the dream was using a remote. And after waking up I still felt this sensation in my hand...for some reason tho I wasn't able to move my hand. I think I could've done more cycles but I was too lazy so I only did two  ::roll:: 

Still, I'm gonna study all of the techniques more intensly, to have a bigger arsenal!

----------


## mcwillis

> But I figured waking up without movement is crucial, so I decided to start practicing that already. I have an app that wakes me up and goes into snooze after 5 seconds. It worked like 2 or 3 times but I wasn't able to enter the phase. Then, the day before yesterday, I woke up from the alarm and was still really tired. But I thought hey, you might as well just go for it. I tried seperation first, which didn't work. Then phantom wiggling, which didn't work either. Then I tried imagining a sensation and all of the sudden, my body started to vibrate and I was like whow, wtf, nice! I knew seperation was not possible yet, but then I heard a hypnagogic sound and I immediatelly switched techniques to listening in and tried to amplify the sound. But instead the vibrating just got stronger and somehow I had a feeling, that seperation was possible now. I told myself well, all or nothing now, and tried to seperate by lifting my upper body up (I was laying on my chest). And it worked! I wasn't seperated all the way yet, but I knew, when I open my eyes now, I will see myself lying in bed in front of me. So I opened my eyes and there I was lying in front of me Still, I'm gonna study all of the techniques more intensly, to have a bigger arsenal!  I got up and had a very crisp lucid dream (first one within 2 years, second one total), that lasted 15-20 dream minutes (7 minutes in WL, I checkt alarm clock after waking up) in which I was able to recall some goals and tried to accomplish them! Even though I didn't use any of the deepening techniques (I didn't know that at the time).



 :woohoo:   By the way an alarm reduces your chance of success by 50-75 %





> I think I could've done more cycles but I was too lazy so I only did two



Four cycles is the minimum.  Nothing may happen for the first three and then bam! an Indirect Technique will work on the fourth cycle.





> Still, I'm gonna study all of the techniques more intensly, to have a bigger arsenal!



Yes intense study will yield the best practical results.

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## Marsupilama

> By the way an alarm reduces your chance of success by 50-75 %



Is there a chapter or a specific part in the book where he describes why ? I mean, since this techinique doesn't require REM, I don't see why I should let my body wake me up at the proper time all by itself?! Plus, if I WBTB after 5-6h of sleep and use an alarm clock for I-WILD, I can generate 4 wake-up situations...so even if there is a loss of 50-75%, that should cover for it.

----------


## Immortaleagle

Thank you mcwillis! After only a couple of days training i woke up this morning without moving and immediatly started phantom wiggling. I then did rotation and last listening in. I started to hear things and tried to make it louder but that did'nt work and then BAM, a picture appered before my eyes and i was standing in my room.
 I had the longest lucid dream of my life which lasted for like 5-10 minutes. It was so real that i did multiple nose rcs, and was thinking that this can't be a dream because it looks like reality! What finally convinced me was when i decided to try to press my finger through my hand. I got the change to eat my first dream burger which tasted really fresh and good. I grounded myself in the dream by looking at my hands and putting my head outside my window to feel the cold air outside.

 Even that i did not got the chance to go somewhere it was still a big step on the way. Now i just need to find myself a good teqnique to teleport myself. Going through a wall have not worked for me yet, i just end up in blackness. I think the next time i will try to close my eyes and run, it have worked for me before.

----------


## mcwillis

> Thank you mcwillis! After only a couple of days training i woke up this morning without moving and immediatly started phantom wiggling. I then did rotation and last listening in. I started to hear things and tried to make it louder but that did'nt work and then BAM, a picture appered before my eyes and i was standing in my room.
>  I had the longest lucid dream of my life which lasted for like 5-10 minutes. It was so real that i did multiple nose rcs, and was thinking that this can't be a dream because it looks like reality! What finally convinced me was when i decided to try to press my finger through my hand. I got the change to eat my first dream burger which tasted really fresh and good. I grounded myself in the dream by looking at my hands and putting my head outside my window to feel the cold air outside.
> 
>  Even that i did not got the chance to go somewhere it was still a big step on the way. Now i just need to find myself a good teqnique to teleport myself. Going through a wall have not worked for me yet, i just end up in blackness. I think the next time i will try to close my eyes and run, it have worked for me before.



 :woohoo:   :woohoo:   :woohoo:  

Awesome, two days practice and a WILD in a matter of seconds.

----------


## DREAMER242000

I read this thread yesterday and decided to give it a go last night. 
I had little faith in it working though, so anyway I woke up after about 3 hours sleep and decided to give it a go.
Much to my amazement within 5 minutes of trying I found myself standing up in my bedroom I noticed some items
of my furniture and clothing were in different locations than IRL.
I then left my room by pushing myself through a wall and flew some short distance before unfortunately 
waking up.
This was only the second Wild I have ever had the first one being quite some time back.
I felt no vibrations and heard no sounds during last nights event.
Thanks for posting this technique, I will be trying to repeat my success during the coming nights. :smiley:

----------


## mattbrox

I'm definitely going to be trying this the next few weeks. That you _so_ much for sharing this, mcwillis!

----------


## whiterain

hey mcwillis you legend. re reading this thread is making it so much easier for me to enter straight back into a lucid when i wake up. ive tried the phantom wiggling a long while back, but always been too lazy to give it a proper go with a wbtb. the idea of just cycling through a few different techs is invaluable for me as it helps so much to keep focus. it led to an amazing long lucid for me this morning so cheers bud. sweet dreams. journal entry here textys, lexys, smoking and a healing whistle - Dream Journals - Dreamviews Lucid Dreaming Community & Resource

now to finally get down to reading the whole books

----------


## mcwillis

> I read this thread yesterday and decided to give it a go last night. 
> I had little faith in it working though, so anyway I woke up after about 3 hours sleep and decided to give it a go.
> Much to my amazement within 5 minutes of trying I found myself standing up in my bedroom I noticed some items
> of my furniture and clothing were in different locations than IRL.
> I then left my room by pushing myself through a wall and flew some short distance before unfortunately 
> waking up.
> This was only the second Wild I have ever had the first one being quite some time back.
> I felt no vibrations and heard no sounds during last nights event.
> Thanks for posting this technique, I will be trying to repeat my success during the coming nights.



 :woohoo:   :woohoo:   :woohoo: 

5 Minutes of practice is too much.  Better to do one minute and fail, then go back to sleep to try again on a later awakening.  You will have better long term results if you follow this rule.

----------


## mcwillis

> hey mcwillis you legend. re reading this thread is making it so much easier for me to enter straight back into a lucid when i wake up. ive tried the phantom wiggling a long while back, but always been too lazy to give it a proper go with a wbtb. the idea of just cycling through a few different techs is invaluable for me as it helps so much to keep focus. it led to an amazing long lucid for me this morning so cheers bud. sweet dreams. journal entry here textys, lexys, smoking and a healing whistle - Dream Journals - Dreamviews Lucid Dreaming Community & Resource
> 
> now to finally get down to reading the whole books



 :woohoo:   :woohoo:   :woohoo: 

I am not a legend.  I have just followed Mr. Raduga's precise instructions, that is all.

----------


## mcwillis

> I'm definitely going to be trying this the next few weeks. That you _so_ much for sharing this, mcwillis!



 :smiley:  There are lots of woohoo's on this page.  These techniques work faster and more easily than any other method.

----------


## Raspberry

Woohoo's tehe (I play too much sims)  :Cheeky: 

Anyway, I'm going to try reading the ebooks again (saved onto my laptop). They kinda confused me last time I tried to read them because of all the OBE talk and such. But, this is try no. 2 because I do see a lot of potential with this technique, especially if you get it to become habit/second nature. I'm gonna take it slowly and really understand each part before I move on, or at least try to. 

On average, how many lucids do you think you've had with this technique Mcwillis?

----------


## mcwillis

> Woohoo's tehe (I play too much sims) 
> 
> Anyway, I'm going to try reading the ebooks again (saved onto my laptop). They kinda confused me last time I tried to read them because of all the OBE talk and such. But, this is try no. 2 because I do see a lot of potential with this technique, especially if you get it to become habit/second nature. I'm gonna take it slowly and really understand each part before I move on, or at least try to. 
> 
> On average, how many lucids do you think you've had with this technique Mcwillis?



The Workbook, 'Ultimate Yoga...' is a much lighter read than the textbook.  I have never kept a count of my lucid dreams and I will explain why.  Why do professional football players keep a count of their goals.  Why do snooker players keep a count of a 147 point maximum break?  Because these accomplishments are hard to achieve.  Why don't we keep a count of how may times we tie our shoelaces as a simple example?  Because it is easy to achieve.  I knew a fair deal about the subconscious mind a long time before I started lucid dreaming and decided that if I keep a count of my lucids I am basically saying to my subconscious mind that lucid dreaming is hard to achieve which can then become a sel-fulfilling prophecy.  I have had plenty with these books.  The techniques work when applied correctly according to Mr. Raduga's precise instructions.

----------


## riverboy

This sounds like a interesting idea, not fully convinced about either way but I'll read the book at some point tonight and give it a shot!

----------


## riverboy

I just read the section on indirect techniques and I've found it quite interesting. It seems that about 80% of the techniques are about recreating the sensations normally felt during a WILD, so that a WILD naturally accompanies it. I love behaviourism!

----------


## mcwillis

> This sounds like a interesting idea, not fully convinced about either way but I'll read the book at some point tonight and give it a shot!



General statistics from seminars are

1-3 days     50% of people have success
2-7 days     80% of people have success
3-14 days   90% of people have success

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## Jay12341235

I cannot for the life of me wake up after my dreams and stay still. Hell, I can hardly wake up. I can remember vaguely waking up 1 time last night to try this technique and I had rolled over before I became aware of what I was supposed to do. I've tried this technique multiple times

I tried the 'autosuggestion' and mantras as well. Any tips?

----------


## mcwillis

At night is the worst time because you are too sleepy, hence why you don't even remember what you are supposed to be doing and you don't yet have any practical experience of having success as well to go by.  Follow the books instructions and use WBTB.  As you are falling asleep after WBTB you must have the intense desire to awaken without moving.  If the intent is there and you use auto-suggestion you will succeed.  You can use Indirect Techniques after moving but your chances are greatly reduced.  Don't waste the opportunity for practice though at these moments.  If nothing happens after four or five cycles of several Indirect Techniques just go back to sleep and try again at your next awakening  :smiley:

----------


## Jay12341235

I did wake back to bed, hence the waking up. I had followed the instructions, and it says to do it at night, or right after sleep. Do you mean later in the morning? 

How often do you actually use this technique?

----------


## mcwillis

Sleep six hours first.  He says do it at night when you have experience of success with using Indirect Techniques combined with WBTB.  I try to use it most days.

----------


## whiterain

ill just add that although not moving will surely be a great tech for most people, for me i always fall back to sleep unless i get up for a minute just to wake myself up a bit. it might hinder my ability to do the more advanced things (obe etc) but it works great for going back into a lucid for me. will have another go at a non mover tonight. on current progress i may have a full on wild with no gap, or even a full obe in the next few weeks.... :smiley:

----------


## MasterMind

I had a dry spell because of the stress from school, read through the workbook to page 76 and tried to understand more of the book than I've done before. I went to bed after I had studied for two tests that I was going to have the next day. 
Set my alarm to wake me up 6 hours later, and when it did I fell asleep remembering to notice my next awakening with closed eyes, and when I woke up that time I heard a ringing noise and it got more intense and then I was standing in my school lucid! 
when that dream ended I just observerved the images that was infront of my eyes and I was back in the dream. Two lucids with indirect techniques, woah! 

But I stil wonder how Raduga mean a separation and a phantom wiggle should be done. Am I supposed to really try to move my arm, but hopefully I don't use my muscles or imagine that I am moving my arm and it will feel so realistic. I have read it in the book, but I just don't understand. Thanks  :smiley:

----------


## DREAMER242000

Success again last night. :smiley: 
I had a much longer and more vivid dream than on my first night using this method, thats two nights out
of three.
I found myself again standing in my bedroom, I then left my room and went on to enjoy a Lucid dream that
seemed to last at least 10 minutes.
The best part of my dream involved me flying behind five Spitfire aircraft  that were flying in formation,
 I tried to get amongst them  but was just not fast enough.
I love this method thanks mcwillis for starting this thread and bringing this method to my attention.  :smiley:  :smiley:  :smiley:

----------


## riverboy

> General statistics from seminars are
> 
> 1-3 days     50% of people have success
> 2-7 days     80% of people have success
> 3-14 days   90% of people have success



The statistics are pretty impressive, however I'm a huge skeptic of just about everything in life. I think the techniques look pretty sound, but I'll be fully convinced when I see for myself.

----------


## Phantasos

> But I stil wonder how Raduga mean a separation and a phantom wiggle should be done. Am I supposed to really try to move my arm, but hopefully I don't use my muscles or imagine that I am moving my arm and it will feel so realistic. I have read it in the book, but I just don't understand. Thanks



Separation is not necessary. It may be useful to be sure you are entering LD but Raduga himsef admits it was not the best term to use as everyone tries to separate while it is not really necessary. 

Here is how I do this. After waking up I imagine rubbing my hands, and when I feel it realistically enough, I just move my body starting with hands (which I know are dream hands) and stood up, then RC to be sure, and last step is creating image and stabilizing.

----------


## mcwillis

> I had a dry spell because of the stress from school, read through the workbook to page 76 and tried to understand more of the book than I've done before. I went to bed after I had studied for two tests that I was going to have the next day. 
> Set my alarm to wake me up 6 hours later, and when it did I fell asleep remembering to notice my next awakening with closed eyes, and when I woke up that time I heard a ringing noise and it got more intense and then I was standing in my school lucid! 
> when that dream ended I just observerved the images that was infront of my eyes and I was back in the dream. Two lucids with indirect techniques, woah!



 :woohoo:   :woohoo:   :woohoo: 





> But I stil wonder how Raduga mean a separation and a phantom wiggle should be done. Am I supposed to really try to move my arm, but hopefully I don't use my muscles or imagine that I am moving my arm and it will feel so realistic. I have read it in the book, but I just don't understand. Thanks



When it does work you will know it!

----------


## mcwillis

> Separation is not necessary. It may be useful to be sure you are entering LD but Raduga himsef admits it was not the best term to use as everyone tries to separate while it is not really necessary. 
> 
> Here is how I do this. After waking up I imagine rubbing my hands, and when I feel it realistically enough, I just move my body starting with hands (which I know are dream hands) and stood up, then RC to be sure, and last step is creating image and stabilizing.



This Indirect Technique is in one of his seminar videos.  But for anyone else remember that one technique is not going to work for everyone.  Cycling of a set of Indirect Techniques is necessary for everyone to achieve success.

----------


## Marsupilama

Today I got another shot at the technique, but I think I was too excited. My heart was beating faster and that sort of distracted me. I went through the 4 cycles of indirect techniques, but couldn't achieve separation. How often do you try the technique mcwillis? I find myself only having one shot at this cause I can't wake up more often without an alarm clock...

----------


## mcwillis

> Today I got another shot at the technique, but I think I was too excited. My heart was beating faster and that sort of distracted me. I went through the 4 cycles of indirect techniques, but couldn't achieve separation. How often do you try the technique mcwillis? I find myself only having one shot at this cause I can't wake up more often without an alarm clock...



Using an alarm clock reduces your chances greatly.  One set of cycles not working is common, you need to awaken several times per day to practice.

----------


## whiterain

> This Indirect Technique is in one of his seminar videos.  But for anyone else remember that one technique is not going to work for everyone.  Cycling of a set of Indirect Techniques is necessary for everyone to achieve success.



i watched his video series and despite the computer voice they are really great so ta again. i tried adding a smell and taste visualisation to the cycle last night and it was pretty effective for an attempt before sleep

----------


## mcwillis

The seminar video I was referring to he speaks in English as he does quite a few seminars in the USA.

Mr. Raduga vehemently opposes attempting to enter a lucid dream or an OBE with Indirect Techniques at night time before sleep.

----------


## whiterain

> The seminar video I was referring to he speaks in English as he does quite a few seminars in the USA.
> 
> Mr. Raduga vehemently opposes attempting to enter a lucid dream or an OBE with Indirect Techniques at night time before sleep.



and how about you? ive had some limited good experiences that way, although i agree that after sleep is just so much better its unreal

----------


## Nilabimini

Awesome Awesome!  I feel like I have just been given a priceless treasure by you sharing his book!  I was reading it this morning, then had a nap and attempted some Indirects upon waking.  I live in a town very close to the road, so I can hear cars passing by, so when I woke, I tried Phantom Wiggling, then switched to Listening In because I the sound in my head was quite loud (it stood out the most of what to do next), but then I was overcome with this rumbling/tumbling anxious jumbled feeling in my head as if everything was building and happening at once.  So I attempted to focus on breathing, because it had helped me to fall asleep, but I was too distracted by the sounds of the cars outside.  I have only ever had one "partial" LD, and it was so random or expected and have never been able to reproduce another, so I am incredibly thankful for this book....will be making many more attempts to come as I continue reading his book!

Thanks  :wink2:

----------


## EbbTide000

Hi whiterain

Are you the same Whiterain that opened 4 Dream Jounnals in November 2008 on saltcube? 

The first was on the 10th
The second was on the 11th
The third was on the 12th
The fourth was on the 13th of November 2008

This Whiterain only post these four times on Saltcube. Some this spectacular happened with his fourth and last post (for me) I am just wondering if you are the same Whiterain.

----------


## EbbTide000

Sorry for crashing this thread, Mcwillis,

Hi Whiterain

I was given the link to saltcube by Carol of PsiDreams fame on 27th of July 2008. I came to “nervously” and “secretly” join-in EyeOneBlack’s 30th Remote Viewing Dream Lab. Then about 4 months later I opened my “Allgazers Now” thread and this was my first post:

Allgazers 1 

Monday, 10 November 2008 
03:50 PM 

Hi 

I am so impatient. I wish there were more psi-experiments here on saltcube. I’ve been miserable for two days because there have been too few posts on saltcube and lucidology. 

Misery is a great catalyst for me. Finally I thought maybe I am not the only misery-guts waiting for posts on saltcube. So I thought I would make up my own activity. I want something daily, so I thought, “Do it your self” . So here is my idea for an activity. 

Every day at 6am (Adelaide time) I will look at my  “Psi-Dreaming Conference Avatar”  and imaginatively open it up and put myself in it. Then for just 10 minutes I will transmit what I am experiencing (seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting, and emotions) into my “Psi-dreaming Conference Avatar”. 

Then I will note down what happened between 6am and 6:10am. May be I will take a photo and about 4 or 5 hours later when I can get to a Internet Café I will post in this thread. 

I reckon, all YOU need do, is look at my “Psi-Dreaming Conference Avatar” for a couple of minutes then note down any ideas you get. Then check this thread to see if it correlates to what I post. You don’t need to post. You don’t need to tell anyone. This is your experiment. 

I will start 6am tomorrow. Here is my  Psi-Dreaming Conference Avatar  

First target was a road cone (witches hat) posted on 10 November 2008.
Second was the white line down the middle of the road on 11 Nov 2008
Third was a swing on 12 November 2008
Forth was The Morton Bay Fig on 13 Nov 2008

Umm, just noticed that Whiterain only did 4 posts and on my 4th target he hit big time but I think it was “UNCONSCIOUSLY” 

He posted his fourth and last post on saltcube during my 4th target.

Owlene said, “I saw a spider and a crushed soda/pop can”

So, I went back to the Morton Bay Fig to search for owlenes crushed soda pop can.

While I was climbing in-and-out of the high buttresses of the Morton Bay fig, (searching for Owlene’s can) my hiptop mobile phone called out “New Message”. I was all tangled up in spider’s webs and buttresses at the time so I decided to wait till I got out of the Morton Bay Fig’s (huge) buttresses before I look at the email. 

Once out and seated on a nearby park bench, deep in the woods behind the Adelaide Botanical Gardens, I took out my hiptop phone to check the email.

It was from saltcube. It was this new guy called Whiterain had just posted this:

*** “good sleep near lucid
13-Nov-08 01:45 PM
binaural abyss + healing sounds w hoover 
no alarm. 
vivid long connected dream (hints to see hands) 
treegazing one hour- deep fading out + hands tingle 
long deep breaths 25 hearts in/15 hearts out 

BREAKFAST UNFORCED AT TEN!” ***

Wow, as you can imagine, it knocked my socks-off, cos my phone called out “New Message” while I was definitely “TREE GAZING” (hahaha) clambering over the Morton Bay Fig’s buttresses looking for Owlene’s can.

----------


## Nilabimini

> Sorry for crashing this thread, Mcwillis,
> 
> Hi Whiterain
> 
> I was given the link to saltcube by Carol of PsiDreams fame on 27th of July 2008. I came to “nervously” and “secretly” join-in EyeOneBlack’s 30th Remote Viewing Dream Lab. Then about 4 months later I opened my “Allgazers Now” thread and this was my first post:
> 
> Allgazers 1 
> 
> Monday, 10 November 2008 
> ...



Why don't you just send him a private message?

----------


## EbbTide000

How do you do that? Send him a private message?

----------


## Nilabimini

> How do you do that? Send him a private message?



I believe you just click on there name, go to their profile and post a message for them directly instead of inside the forum for all to see.  I have never actually done it, but from what I saw under my own profile I'm pretty sure you can there.

----------


## EbbTide000

Thanx Nilabimini

I just copied both posts to a word-document. then clicked on whiterain, then on "private message" Hope it works. Thanx again Niabimini.

----------


## Nilabimini

> Thanx Nilabimini
> 
> I just copied both posts to a word-document. then clicked on whiterain, then on "private message" Hope it works. Thanx again Niabimini.



You're very welcome, glad I could help  :wink2:

----------


## Jay12341235

I woke up this morning and remembered not to move. I remember exiting an odd dream kind of scared, and heard a sound in my ear similar to the one you get while being on the receiving end of a call where the other person is driving their car with their phone out the window. I moved a second or two after hearing this, but I'm pretty confident their something to this technique

----------


## Clairvoyance

I will be a "guinea pig" for this book. I have had 0 wilds and I just downloaded this book now. I will write down my progress (if any) here in this thread for those who want to see whether or not this book can help a non-wilder.

I have no assumptions. I've given up on attempting lucid dreaming, since I only ender an LD by luck. Let's see how this turns out.

----------


## Nilabimini

> I will be a "guinea pig" for this book. I have had 0 wilds and I just downloaded this book now. I will write down my progress (if any) here in this thread for those who want to see whether or not this book can help a non-wilder.
> 
> I have no assumptions. I've given up on attempting lucid dreaming, since I only ender an LD by luck. Let's see how this turns out.



Dude, keep me posted with your progress, I am in the same boat you are.  My partial LD was by dumb luck, I'm in process of reading the book.  Today I took a nap, but upon waking moved my foot right away and it ruined everything, because even though I tried hard not to focus on that movement, it was too late.

Nothing else works for me, so I'm hoping this will be a new doorway.

----------


## mcwillis

> I will be a "guinea pig" for this book. I have had 0 wilds and I just downloaded this book now. I will write down my progress (if any) here in this thread for those who want to see whether or not this book can help a non-wilder.
> 
> I have no assumptions. I've given up on attempting lucid dreaming, since I only ender an LD by luck. Let's see how this turns out.



General statistics from seminars are

1-3 days 50% of people have success
2-7 days 80% of people have success
3-14 days 90% of people have success 

Mr.  Raduga says that if you do not have success 100% of the time with Indirect Techniques it is because you are making mistakes by not following the precise instructions in his book.

----------


## MasterMind

This time I woke up without an alarmclock, almost... 

I woke up and immediately started to phantom wiggle (which I now understand how to do) I tried to feel any sensation of moving my hand, but felt none, instead I started to observe the images that was infront of my eyes. I saw a plate with food and suddenly felt a fork and a knife in my hands and I started to move my right hand and now I heard some ringing sounds and then I just realised that I was sitting at the dinner table and was now lucid.
I walked around my house and then I heard a loud ringing and remembered that I had set my alarmclock to wake me up to eat breakfast and I woke up. Angry I snoozed the alarm and decided to try indirect techniques again and I observerved the images once again. This time I found myself in a locker room filled with girls (not a bad way to start a dream on), then I started to think about how stupid I was to set my alarm to snooze and after running around and being angry over that I woke up to the snooze... This time I turned the alarm off, but when I tried to enter the dream again I heard that my parents had woke up, and they usually wake me up, but I decided to try again and it worked but not for long because I heard sounds from the "real" world ^^ and I woke up. When my parents had gone to work I thought that I finally could have a long lucid dream, but now I couldn't enter the dream again... But now I now how to phantom wiggle and I entered the dream three times! 
Tonight I am trying to drink some water before going to bed and hopefully i wake up a little earlier. I just noticed that the sound you hear when you listen in is the sound you hear when you yawn ^^ 
And yeah thanks again mcwillis for informing me this book. Someday I will succed a direct technique I feel it! haha no, maybe well bye!

----------


## mcwillis

> This time I woke up without an alarmclock, almost... 
> 
> I woke up and immediately started to phantom wiggle (which I now understand how to do) I tried to feel any sensation of moving my hand, but felt none, instead I started to observe the images that was infront of my eyes. I saw a plate with food and suddenly felt a fork and a knife in my hands and I started to move my right hand and now I heard some ringing sounds and then I just realised that I was sitting at the dinner table and was now lucid.



 :woohoo:   :woohoo:   :woohoo:

----------


## dlucid

Can I recommend new seminar (video)... which everybody can download?  :smiley: 

I am focusing only on indirect techniques, in 4 nights I was successful 3 times.
I'm very grateful for the knowledge he share. 

I think that this is something I will be doing for the rest of my life.

And, Mcwillis thanks for the tread and support.  ::kiss::

----------


## mcwillis

> Can I recommend new seminar (video)... which everybody can download?



Yes they can, but everyone needs to sign-up to be able to download it, I had to.





> I am focusing only on indirect techniques, in 4 nights I was successful 3 times.
> I'm very grateful for the knowledge he share. 
> 
> I think that this is something I will be doing for the rest of my life.
> 
> And, Mcwillis thanks for the tread and support.



 :woohoo:   :woohoo:   :woohoo:

----------


## whiterain

masterminds experience sounds so similar to my first attempt at these techniques its great. i couldnt find the seminar video at all. all i got was a page that said to enter your email address and they would tell me when it is ready. anyone point me in the right direction?

----------


## mcwillis

Just wait for a reply with the link to download the video.  I won't post the link here as the they probably want to keep an eye on how many people want to download it as it is over a gigabyte of data and posting it on a forum like this might overload their server or exceed their bandwith usage.

----------


## Clairvoyance

Alright, 1st night in, here's the analysis:

* I have read up to page 35 before going to sleep. 

* I tried the first 3 of the trainings of the indirect methods to no success (Observing Images, Phantom Wriggling, and Listening In). The only thing that worked was Straining the brain, which gave me a very uncomfortable feel, accompanied by dizziness.

* I woke up later in the night as I usually do. I was incredibly thirsty and had to get a drink, so I decided to move instead of applying an indirect method.

* After drinking, I attempted to use Observing Images, but nothing else. I drifted to a non-lucid dream before I even got a chance to switch gears.

Night One: No Lucids. Observing Images used.

Side note: I think I'm going to be one of the 10% of the people that fail even after 14 days of practice.

----------


## Jay12341235

> Alright, 1st night in, here's the analysis:
> I was incredibly thirsty and had to get a drink, _so I decided to move instead of applying an indirect method._
> 
> Side note: I think *I'm going to be one of the 10% of the people that fail* even after 14 days of practice.



Don't set yourself up for failure then. 

The book tells you not to move at all when you wake up, and to keep your eyelids closed as well. If you don't follow the instructions then I'll probably agree with you, you will fail.

Second, don't forget to keep a good attitude. Expecting and wanting failure will result in failure  :smiley:

----------


## MikeMk

> Alright, 1st night in, here's the analysis:
> 
> * I have read up to page 35 before going to sleep. 
> 
> * I tried the first 3 of the trainings of the indirect methods to no success (Observing Images, Phantom Wriggling, and Listening In). The only thing that worked was Straining the brain, which gave me a very uncomfortable feel, accompanied by dizziness.
> 
> * I woke up later in the night as I usually do. I was incredibly thirsty and had to get a drink, so I decided to move instead of applying an indirect method.
> 
> * After drinking, I attempted to use Observing Images, but nothing else. I drifted to a non-lucid dream before I even got a chance to switch gears.
> ...



You even didn't attempt... Read carefully chapter 2 or you have no chances, because you use an OTHER method))))

----------


## Clairvoyance

Alright, here's my plan for tonight: 
1. Read Instructions again
2. Drink lots of water and go to the bathroom before sleep.
3. Don't move a muscle when waking up

As for keeping up a good attitude, I do not want to be biased in favour of any of these methods working. In a lot of threads like this, people who try the methods and fail say things like "Well, at least I had good dream recall". This, I believe, is an effect created by believing too much in the success of a method. Of course, this isn't the only thing that can go wrong with being biased towards the success of a method, either.

At the same time, I will try my best to not be biased towards the failure of this. I want to be neutral towards the chances of this working out for someone like me.

----------


## MasterMind

Haha second attempt success. But I did one misstake.. 
I took a nap during the day and that made it hard to fall asleep before going to bed and during my spontanious awakenings. if someone want to know how I did here goes:

I went to bed and just thought that the next time I notice an awakening I will remember to perform indirect techniques. and then when I woke up I moved a little, but not much, I just become aware of that I had just awakened and I started to observe the images that was infront of my eyes, there was none but they just appeared. That seemed to be enough to enter the dream, because I suddenly found myself in another room, but because of the nap my body just didn't semmed to want to be asleep and I woke up again. I then tried to enter the dream again, but my mind was to awake, when I tried to move I felt that my body was completely paralysed, but I just couldn't fall asleep... Then I got up.

NO MORE NAPS =( But still a success  :wink2: 

If you fail when you are doing the techniques described in the free ebook you are doing something wrong, because these methods works! 
instead of saying that the techniques didn't work for me during this attempt I say that they did work but the nap was my misstake.
Next night I will make my third attempt. Good luck !

----------


## whiterain

> Alright, here's my plan for tonight: 
> 1. Read Instructions again
> 2. Drink lots of water and go to the bathroom before sleep.
> 3. Don't move a muscle when waking up
> 
> As for keeping up a good attitude, I do not want to be biased in favour of any of these methods working. In a lot of threads like this, people who try the methods and fail say things like "Well, at least I had good dream recall". This, I believe, is an effect created by believing too much in the success of a method. Of course, this isn't the only thing that can go wrong with being biased towards the success of a method, either.
> 
> At the same time, I will try my best to not be biased towards the failure of this. I want to be neutral towards the chances of this working out for someone like me.



if you are not biased in favour of these methods working, then you are probably going to go into it with too much of a skeptical frame of mind to acheive anything. there is nothing wrong with convincing yourself that something will work. the placebo effect is one of the most powerful methods of inducing lucid dreams imo

don't concentrate on testing the methods, concentrate on the result  :smiley:

----------


## Jay12341235

I tried again this morning. I woke up without opening my eyes or moving. Next, I tried the 'phantom wiggling' and not much happened. Then I 'strained my brain' and got some vibrations after about 10 seconds but no lucid dream.

I am curious about the imagery technique because that seems to be the technique that most people have success with. On all of my attempts for this technique, I've never seen any imagery 'behind my eyelids'. Will it appear if I will it to be there or imagine a scene I want to be in?? Some help from people with experience with this would be nice.

----------


## MasterMind

> I tried again this morning. I woke up without opening my eyes or moving. Next, I tried the 'phantom wiggling' and not much happened. Then I 'strained my brain' and got some vibrations after about 10 seconds but no lucid dream.
> 
> I am curious about the imagery technique because that seems to be the technique that most people have success with. On all of my attempts for this technique, I've never seen any imagery 'behind my eyelids'. Will it appear if I will it to be there or imagine a scene I want to be in?? Some help from people with experience with this would be nice.



I did not see images like on a screen I just woke up and turned over in my bed, closed my eyes and stared into the black. Suddenly I just felt a swift in my consciousnes and I saw a room, it felt the same as looking through my real eyes, but then I was just standing there, the experience did not feel like the "real" world, but it felt very vivid.
But as I said I woke up too early.. maybe have had work if I stablized it I don't know.
Hope that helped =) The trick might be not to expect something extra ordinary to happen instead just trust the technique and if nothing appears during that attempt maybe it does on the next.
If nothing happens after 3 seconds, do another indirect technique.
My cycle is: Observing imagages, phantom wiggling, listening in then I do this 3 times more.

----------


## Nilabimini

Hey, I just want to add that Mr. Raduga has a facebook page.  You can go to it from the site his ebook is on.  He seems to answer or address any and all issues or questions that people post on his page.  He told me to definitely practice the techniques as much as possible for best results, but no more that 3 or 4 times, I guess just for starting out.

But he is the source.  If there is something that you are really stumped on or just can't quite get right, I highly recommend stopping by his FB page and dropping him a line!

~Steph ☼

----------


## whiterain

yep he has a forum too and replied to my questions within a day which was a nice surprise. sorry if the mods do not like other forums being mentioned..

----------


## Nilabimini

^ cool, thanks, I'll check that out too then.... I'm off to read more of the book, I keep getting wrapped up here and then no time to read... good luck all, keep trying, but not too hard.  I think eventually we have to reach a point where we just say Ef it and just let go completely, what happens...happens.  Maybe it will just come easier too us then, I know sometimes I'm trying to hard because I just want it to happen so bad, but in the end that just makes it worse.

It would really help if I could find and Android alarm app that shuts off or snoozes automatically without having to press anything after like, 1 minute or sumthin.....

----------


## MasterMind

Ok this attempt did not succed =/ but I succeded in another thing  :wink2:  
I used the Thinkrightnow program someone in this forum wrote about and I affirmed with subliminal messages that I would notice my micro awakenings and not move and have closed eyes, and it worked! I woke up and noticed that my eyes were closed and I did not move. I observed some image but nothing special appeared, then I phantom wiggled but I moved my physical muscles to much and the atttempt ended, I tried to listen in anyway and heard a different noise than I usually do but it faded away.
But now I can notice my micro awakenings!

Next night I will try the cell phone technique that is said to work 30-50 % of the time  :smiley:

----------


## astraalipaska

I'm really excited about this, because I read about 50 pages from the book yesterday and went to sleep reminding myself that when I wake up I will not move or open my eyes, and that I will remember to do indirect techniques.

The first time I woke up, I moved and opened my eyes, it was around 2:30 AM. I reminded myself not to move/open eyes when waking up. 
So the second time I woke up, I didnt move or open my eyes, I was pretty excited that It worked so fast. I then tried the "phantom wiggling" but It didnt seem to work, or I probably could have done it wrong. Then I tried the "straining the brain" technique, but I didnt concentrate on it enough, and I fell asleep.
I'm really happy that I learned to wake up without moving, so fast, I thought it would take atleast 3-4 nights to learn it.

 :smiley: 
And somehow this feels like the right thing for me, because I remember numerous busy mornings, when I have just stayed in bed and after a while I have started to put my clothes on etc. But then realised I havent left bed yet.... ::roll::

----------


## whiterain

> Ok this attempt did not succed =/ but I succeded in another thing  
> I used the Thinkrightnow program someone in this forum wrote about and I affirmed with subliminal messages that I would notice my micro awakenings and not move and have closed eyes, and it worked! I woke up and noticed that my eyes were closed and I did not move. I observed some image but nothing special appeared, then I phantom wiggled but I moved my physical muscles to much and the atttempt ended, I tried to listen in anyway and heard a different noise than I usually do but it faded away.
> But now I can notice my micro awakenings!
> Next night I will try the cell phone technique that is said to work 30-50 % of the time



yeah i still have alot of trouble with not moving when i wake up, but im getting there, and definately getting to be far more conscious of the sp vibrations when waking.its all good practice

----------


## Nilabimini

> yeah i still have alot of trouble with not moving when i wake up, but im getting there, and definately getting to be far more conscious of the sp vibrations when waking.its all good practice



Same here! At least during the work week, because of my damn alarm  :Oh noes:   If I had an automatic alarm on my phone that would shut itself off after 30 seconds - 1 minute and then snooze again in like 20 min, then I would have no problem with the moving thing.  But I have no way around this when I have to get up and go to work and need to have my alarm go off or else I don't wake up.

Good luck all, I'm still trying to read the book in between getting real sleep, working, and trying to interpret dreams.

So,

Sweet dreams, sleep tight, don't let the bed bugs bite!

----------


## MasterMind

No luck this time either :/ 
I woke up and moved a little and imagined an iphone in my hand, but I think I fell asleep unconsciously. My dream were very vivid though. 
I don't know what I am doing wrong now I just have to read and figure that out.

Edit: Sometimes I'm just so stupid...  On every attempt that I wrote that I succed I did not move at all upon awakening.
On every attempt that I failed I wrote that I moved (too much). That's the misstake ^^

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## whiterain

i was so out of it this morning while trying these. i did indirect techs in the morning, and found myself getting into a dream, yet carrying on with the techniques after i was in it.... very odd. anyone else?

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## Purebred

Ok. So i've read half of the book and I have some questions.
 I want to Lucid Dream and not to OBE and I dont really understand the difference between those two now. I got confused. Can someone explain?
And if I understood correctly, you can't enter your dream, unless you perform "Observing Images", which might not even occur. So what do you do if images are not coming? Will "Straining The brain" work? 
Author said that while trying to become LUCID you should concentrate on one technique, but "mcwillis" used few of them.

EDIT: I found my answer in author's forum. He thinks that LD/AP/OBE are the same things.

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## Nilabimini

Spending the afternoon reading the book and taking a nap... will let all know how it turns out, hopefully better since I won't have to use an alarm!!!  ::biggrin::

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## whiterain

> Ok. So i've read half of the book and I have some questions.
>  I want to Lucid Dream and not to OBE and I dont really understand the difference between those two now. I got confused. Can someone explain?
> And if I understood correctly, you can't enter your dream, unless you perform "Observing Images", which might not even occur. So what do you do if images are not coming? Will "Straining The brain" work? 
> Author said that while trying to become LUCID you should concentrate on one technique, but "mcwillis" used few of them.
> 
> EDIT: I found my answer in author's forum. He thinks that LD/AP/OBE are the same things.



i think the basic idea is to cycle through different visualisation techniques, but when you find one starting to work, focus on that until you get to a lucid. i still need to read the whole thing but i hate reading for ages on a screen

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## Nilabimini

Okay, so nap time is over.

I know that Breathing Concentration is always going to be one of my Indirects because I have done that without even thinking about it for as long as I can remember _and_ while I use Breathing Concentration, this in turn ends up producing images in the black void so once I actually take notice to them I switch to Observing Images (I think this is a useful one for me as I have always been a visual learner and I have a photographic memory), for my third I'm not consistent on this.  I'm thinking I am going to use Straining Brain  in the future if I have a conscious awakening with vibrations already present, and if not, switch to it if they arise.

I know I know, Directs are frowned upon for beginners... confession, before my nap, due to the degree of fatigue I had, I knew I would be able to reach a state of sleep quicker than prior to bed, so I wanted to give it a shot, just to see how controlled my ability would be to stay focused on popping back into a semi conscious state from a subconscious. (Hah! I was a bit sleepier than I realized) So as I was drifting, using Breathing Concentration first which then automatically brings images to me automatically after a few minutes, I started seeing a computer screen (initially when I began the switch to Observing Images I new I was still on the conscious level) and someone was teaching me how to input numbers.  I was sitting off to the side of the screen and this person typed something into the top and this is where I new I was at least in a semi conscious state because I was observing me, I actually leaned towards my right so that I could see the screen from the teacher's POV, and as my body did that in this state it felt more cloudy like my existances do in my dreams.  But, as I had shifted in that moment to see the screen, and this is why I say semi conscious, somewhere in my physical mind I was like "oooo I'm close to a dream!" and I could actually feel my body or my aura or my consciousness getting "pulled back" (thats how it felt) into a different more outward state of awareness, one that was more conscious (and was a little disappointed, because I think I may have been close).

So with that result I think the realization of what was happening in my conscious self was too aggressive of a reaction and pulled me back out of it.  I was still happy with this little result from the Direct approach, but for now I will still stick to practicing the Indirects, this was just an experiment of my control and it definitely taught me not to be so aggressive in my reactions.

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

I was also happy that I had recall on this dream from my nap, because it seemed to disappear the past 2 days, probably due in part to stress.

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## Purebred

I tried this yesterday night. I had no problem waking up becoming aware. i used "Phantom Wiggling" instantly and it kinda worked, but because of the lack of training, while using "Wiggling" I accidently strained my arm muscle, so I jumped straight to "Observing Images", but nothing happened. I strained my brain but it was over. I cycled throu my techniques 5 times more and went to sleep.

My main mistake was my lack of Techniques training. I think that next time I will have my LD. ;D

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## Kunal19

okkk ans some of my questions..........
1) i am on page 50.......so is the author going to explain direct techniques like he explained indirect ones.......or he will just talk in theories........? in rest of the book
2) someone explain me phantom wiggling coz i dont get how to wiggle without physical muscle movement.........?
3) how do you strain your brain........?
4) how the voice in your head sounds like ( listening in technique)
   does the voice sound like high pitched beep type voice.......?

----------


## Purebred

> okkk ans some of my questions..........
> 1) i am on page 50.......so is the author going to explain direct techniques like he explained indirect ones.......or he will just talk in theories........? in rest of the book
> 2) someone explain me phantom wiggling coz i dont get how to wiggle without physical muscle movement.........?
> 3) how do you strain your brain........?
> 4) how the voice in your head sounds like ( listening in technique)
>    does the voice sound like high pitched beep type voice.......?



I can try explaining wiggling. Lay down on your bed, close your eyes and start lifting your arm. don't lift it very high, just a little. Try remembering the sensation of your arm flying up into the air and coming down. Now try to have the same sensation, but with your arm lying down on your bed. Try this for about 5 minutes and your brain will deffinetely do the work for you.

----------


## MasterMind

> okkk ans some of my questions..........
> 1) i am on page 50.......so is the author going to explain direct techniques like he explained indirect ones.......or he will just talk in theories........? in rest of the book
> 2) someone explain me phantom wiggling coz i dont get how to wiggle without physical muscle movement.........?
> 3) how do you strain your brain........?
> 4) how the voice in your head sounds like ( listening in technique)
>    does the voice sound like high pitched beep type voice.......?



1) Don't try direct techniques first he will explain it, but don't try that first!
3) Imagine that your brain is like a sponge don't concentrate on the fact that straining the brain is impossible, just imagine that it happens if you then feel any vibrations or strange sensations concentrate on that spot and then move it around in the body.
4) For me listening in sounds like this: 
If I go to a quiet room and listen to any beep sounds I hear a small eco of beeps
but if I wake up during the night and all conditions is right for listening in to occur it sounds like a loud tinitus beep, like this one YouTube - LOW FREQUENCIES

Last night did now work for me either, but I think I know why. The first 2 days when I tried this techniques and I had been succesful, for some reason I changed my pillow and when I did that I didn't sleep well so I change back today and see if I notice any progress.

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## whiterain

on waking up i used these techniques 3 times to get back into an amazing party dream i was having at my old house this morning. the visuals i focussed on where simply wherever i left the dream before, and the audio was always joe cockers with a little help from my friends. its so strange though because although i now seem to be able to get back into a dream on command, i was not lucid once despite telling my mate how i keep having dreams about this house. i guess i could chalk this up as both a deid, wid and even vid but onfortunately no l to be seen  :smiley:

----------


## Kunal19

Ok what after imagining my brain as sponge...
I mean do you imagine hands or something to strain it or you just concentrate on your brain..?

----------


## MasterMind

> Ok what after imagining my brain as sponge...
> I mean do you imagine hands or something to strain it or you just concentrate on your brain..?



Just imagine what ever you find best, if it works it works and if nothing happends just change technique. I usually don't strain the brain because for me listening in, phantom wiggling, observing images and force falling asleep works better, but when I imagine I just try to feel that my brain is contracting and if nothing happens then I just listen in because the beeping sound is normally clear by that time.

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## Nilabimini

With the cell phone technique, wants the sensation or feeling arises that it is really in your hand, and you should be able to move around it like it is real, that is just imagined right?  You are not actually supposed to move your hand when you are doing this correct?  Would that be sort of like a phantom wiggling thing or forced movement?

----------


## MasterMind

> With the cell phone technique, wants the sensation or feeling arises that it is really in your hand, and you should be able to move around it like it is real, that is just imagined right?  You are not actually supposed to move your hand when you are doing this correct?  Would that be sort of like a phantom wiggling thing or forced movement?



I don't understand how he ment there either, but I guess you first concentrate on the sensations in the hand then, when you really can feel it you are already there and separation is possible. So it's sort of a mix of phantom wiggling and forced movement. To understand the feeling, it's good to know what a dream really is, a dream is hallucinations that use all of the brain except the logic center which makes it hard to realise that we are dreaming, but when you enter a dream consciously you are just looking for sensations that's not physcialy there. (see the Discovery Channel documentary on the brain)

I am talking like I know all this, but I just have reading knowledge not real experience from all of the techniques. My first two attempts was succesful with phantom wiggling, observing images and listen in so I know how those feel, but everything else is just speculations of the information from the book.  :smiley:

----------


## dakotahnok

*





 Originally Posted by Mzzkc


As I've said before, the phase of sleep doesn't particularly matter, nor does reentry, or the state consciousness before waking. I'll refer you to the first post I made on this thread for my main case, which you've only served to validate. 

But since there's a chance you'll have trouble connecting two and two, the definition I gave applies to everything the author recommends beginners start with. Hence he's teaching DEILD.

The transitional techniques taught are the proverbial WILD tool-kit, which can be applied in any WILD attempt.

I mean, I'm surprised this isn't blatantly obvious.

Edit: Also, boom. I use that for DEILD, but it works equally well for your standard WILD. Or, if you thinks that's too conceited of me: this also works for DEILDs.



Because lucids are easy to remember, DEILD is a simple and effective technique for beginners (especially with a tool-kit), and he teaches it well?

Again, the pattern is pretty clear.



You've just proven the point I was making.



The hypocrisy here is actually kinda funny.



I hoped it'd serve to point our how ridiculous it is to consecutively copy/paste the same poorly formed argument three times while simultaneously failing to acknowledge and address any points made.



I've addressed this. No need to repeat myself, right?



Seriously, this is hilarious. ^.^









 Originally Posted by Mzzkc


Read through the pertinent stuff, but didn't learn anything new. He's essentially teaching people DEILD while providing a general use WILD tool-kit most people have to develop on their own. Not a bad resource, but nothing particularly groundbreaking. 

And before anyone argues the point that these aren't DEILDs: put plainly and simply, DEILDs are WILDs that one does immediately upon waking; where one is in any given cycle doesn't particularly matter.



Agreed*

----------


## dakotahnok

*





 Originally Posted by mcwillis


You can't have a DEILD in non REM sleep.  You clearly don't understand that you can only dream in REM sleep.



completely false.*

----------


## MasterMind

This night I become conscious in a dream so it was a DILD, so I do sleep better with this pillow. In the dream I asked how to get more lucid drrams anytime I want and the answer I got was ''sleep more'' then I woke up after a pretty short lucid dream and wondered what the dc (dream character ment by that) because a dc is only a projection of your subconscious you. I moved alot in bed because I was in an uncomfortable position and then I tried to fall asleep consciously with indirect techniques, but when I closed my eyes I started to hear a different sound than I usually do when I listen in and I saw images infront of my eyes and it almost felt like I was rotating, then my alarm started to ring and it was over... I had slept for 12 hours. But my theory is if I go to bed very early one night in the week my rem sleep becomes longer for that night and when I wake up it will ne easier to use indirect techniques. This technique is called CILD (Cycle-adjust induced lucid dream) I think. I will try this out tonight and see if it works  :wink2:

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## Purebred

> This night I become conscious in a dream so it was a DILD, so I do sleep better with this pillow. In the dream I asked how to get more lucid drrams anytime I want and the answer I got was ''sleep more'' then I woke up after a pretty short lucid dream and wondered what the dc (dream character ment by that) because a dc is only a projection of your subconscious you. I moved alot in bed because I was in an uncomfortable position and then I tried to fall asleep consciously with indirect techniques, but when I closed my eyes I started to hear a different sound than I usually do when I listen in and I saw images infront of my eyes and it almost felt like I was rotating, then my alarm started to ring and it was over... I had slept for 12 hours. But my theory is if I go to bed very early one night in the week my rem sleep becomes longer for that night and when I wake up it will ne easier to use indirect techniques. This technique is called CILD (Cycle-adjust induced lucid dream) I think. I will try this out tonight and see if it works



Why don't you try sleeping for like 4 - 5 hours one noght and go early the other night. I read somewhere that this increases chances of lucid dreaming. Ganna try that myself in two days too. ;D

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## whiterain

well i managed my most obe like wild this morning. i suddenly found myself in a room and instantly knew it was a dream and that i had to stabilise it right away. this was tricky because as i was on my side, i think one of my eyes was touching the pillow. this always seems to translate into my dream as my vision was really blurry. i almost faded out straight away but battled to rub my hands together and try to blink to open my eyes properly and peer around. i even tried rubbing my face and eyes and looking around for where i was. all i could make out was some kind of docs/dentists room. the vision was too much of a challenge to maintain so it only lasted maybe a minute if that. it was the most like just being able to teleport to another somewhere that ive ever experienced though so its all good practice  ::D:

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## MasterMind

> Why don't you try sleeping for like 4 - 5 hours one noght and go early the other night. I read somewhere that this increases chances of lucid dreaming. Ganna try that myself in two days too. ;D



Hmm I think I will be very tired during the day if I do that xD so for the next night I'm going to bed early because that seems to be enough, if it works the problem will not to be to have a lucid dream but when to have it because you can not go to bed early every night right? But it will still be far more less of a problem compared to induce a lucid dream anyway  :smiley:  If that is the case, it means that I can lucid dream at will!






> well i managed my most obe like wild this morning. i suddenly found myself in a room and instantly knew it was a dream and that i had to stabilise it right away. this was tricky because as i was on my side, i think one of my eyes was touching the pillow. this always seems to translate into my dream as my vision was really blurry. i almost faded out straight away but battled to rub my hands together and try to blink to open my eyes properly and peer around. i even tried rubbing my face and eyes and looking around for where i was. all i could make out was some kind of docs/dentists room. the vision was too much of a challenge to maintain so it only lasted maybe a minute if that. it was the most like just being able to teleport to another somewhere that ive ever experienced though so its all good practice



Nice !  :smiley:  I hope that the CILD mix will make me more aware and make the dream more stable too. The first lucid dream I had was a WBTB with a MILD and this dream felt as real as reality ! But like all my succesful attempt seems to end, the alarm woke me up because I had slept for too long. So I really hope that the CILD will help me with that.

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## Kunal19

I already have problem in sleep..
No matter how much i try i dont sleep before 1 o'clock..
I wanna sleep early...What can i do..?

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## Purebred

> I already have problem in sleep..
> No matter how much i try i dont sleep before 1 o'clock..
> I wanna sleep early...What can i do..?



Wake up after 5 hours of sleep and be very active on the day time. You won't even notice how you will fall on your bed at about 8 o'clock. ;D

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## Kunal19

> Wake up after 5 hours of sleep and be very active on the day time. You won't even notice how you will fall on your bed at about 8 o'clock. ;D



usually i sleep 6-7 hours.......hmmmmmm i can try this......i will wake up early

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## Purebred

> usually i sleep 6-7 hours.......hmmmmmm i can try this......i will wake up early



it may require some will power. ;D

EDIT: I can see that your sleep is not very stable, you should get 7 - 9 hours per night. That's may be the cause too.

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## Kunal19

damn but there is one problem.......
if someone will awake me or i will use alarm........than i cant use these indirect tecniques...
as i know i should wake up naturally to use these indirect tecniques...

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## Purebred

> damn but there is one problem.......
> if someone will awake me or i will use alarm........than i cant use these indirect tecniques...
> as i know i should wake up naturally to use these indirect tecniques...



Awakening and not moving is like the most easiest thing for me. just lay down on you bed before going to sleep focusing on waking up.

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## dreamspinner

I tried this. I imagined very forcefully that I was moving my fingers, didn't work. So I imagined I was eating a steak, oh that worked all right! I lost conciousness and had a dream of me eating a...steak... I truly think I can do this, just need to stay a bit more alert. Thanks!

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## Kunal19

I tried these techniques but they didnt work..
May be i know the reason....I was not in a perfect state to do it..
I mean i woke up 3-4 times last night but every time i moved..
But than last time i didnt move  but my brother kicked me while sleeping...Lol
yesterday when i woke up without moving...My mom came and started yelling..Lol
But i know i will do it for sure..Just need some practise..
But i still cant understand brain straining...
I saw some images behind but eyelid yesterday while listening theta waves but they faded away..

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## MasterMind

Ahh.. Never ever go to bed 3 hours earlier than usual.
I woke up at the time I normally go to bed and were too awake and the opposite of what I wanted happend. I did not sleep and had more rem periods I didn't slept at all! only those first 3 hours and now I am really weak x.x 
The next night I go to bed normal time and hopefuly my sleep cycle is normal again.
To have longer rem sleep the only thing that works is too sleep longer, but go to bed at normal time otherwise you can't fall asleep +.+

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## Purebred

QUESTION! Please answer it. I had 3 unsuccessful attempts using tehcniques described in the book. (I've read all of it). I am pro at waking up, not moving and not opening my eyes. But so far, I haven't even reached sp and I am wondering: why? 

So, here goes the question:

Since I don't use an alarm clock and wake up myself I noticed that time I wake up is always the same, like 3 hours after going to sleep. In all of my attempts I haven't reached even SP. May the cause of this be only 3 hours of sleep I get, before trying all of these tchniques?

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## MasterMind

> QUESTION! Please answer it. I had 3 unsuccessful attempts using tehcniques described in the book. (I've read all of it). I am pro at waking up, not moving and not opening my eyes. But so far, I haven't even reached sp and I am wondering: why? 
> 
> So, here goes the question:
> 
> Since I don't use an alarm clock and wake up myself I noticed that time I wake up is always the same, like 3 hours after going to sleep. In all of my attempts I haven't reached even SP. May the cause of this be only 3 hours of sleep I get, before trying all of these tchniques?



When you wake up, do you have any memory of dreams that you may have dreamed, because if you're not in rem sleep it's harder to succed.
And 3 hours of sleep is not that much rem sleep. Michael Raduga recommends to sleep 6 hours and even with an alarmclock it can be succesful, try an alarm like in the CAN-WILD method (an alarm that wake you up 6 hours after falling asleep and then automatically turns itself off then you fall asleep again and the alarm wake you up and you can DEILD in this case use Indirect techniques)

I am going to use an CAN-WILD alarmclock myself because these autosuggestions only make me worried over that I will not succed and gives me troublefalling asleep and so on.

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## Purebred

I dont realy like that alarm thing. I want to achieve skill of waking after my dream ends... Now that i think about it, i can't recall any dreams, so that means I am not waking up after REM. 
I can wake up whenever I want, it doesn't matter it's 3 or 6 six hours earlier. It's like the only benefit I have in Lucid Dream. xD Alright, this night i'm trying this techniques after 6 hours of sleep. Thanks MasterMind.

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## MasterMind

Well if you can wake up whenever you want that's just perfect =) 
I tried to to do so too, but when I did not managed to do it I just continued to fail so I am going to use the alarm just to make sure that I wake up at all  :smiley:

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## Purebred

This alarm would wake my whole city up. It's too loud. And I dont wanna kepp my pc on. This night will be my lucid night. I just feel it. Before going to sleep I will listen binaural beats and talk mantras and do my vizualization fo MILD. Whole day I have been wandering around my house imagining if I am dreaming and how would I react and that I will do my RC for DILD. I'm ganna wake up at around 4 hours after going to sleep and try to DEILD with techniques described here (I still call it DEILD) and then, if it doesn't work I'm ganna wake up after 6 hours of sleep and try WILD sing anchors. Wish me luck. ;D

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## MasterMind

> This alarm would wake my whole city up. It's too loud. And I dont wanna kepp my pc on. This night will be my lucid night. I just feel it. Before going to sleep I will listen binaural beats and talk mantras and do my vizualization fo MILD. Whole day I have been wandering around my house imagining if I am dreaming and how would I react and that I will do my RC for DILD. I'm ganna wake up at around 4 hours after going to sleep and try to DEILD with techniques described here (I still call it DEILD) and then, if it doesn't work I'm ganna wake up after 6 hours of sleep and try WILD sing anchors. Wish me luck. ;D



Good luck!  :smiley:  I will write down my routine too  ::D: 
I will go to bed 10.00 pm and set my alarm to wake me up to this sound: YouTube - Tron Legacy Soundtrack - End Titles (Track 21) <3 Tron xD
04.00 pm  and when I wake up I will fall asleep again and remember that the next time I wake up I will lay completely still and have closed eyes, and when  the next alarm 15 min later wakes me up and then turns itself off I use indirect techniques. (The only question here is: Can I fall asleep again?)

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## Purebred

> Good luck!  I will write down my routine too 
> I will go to bed 10.00 pm and set my alarm to wake me up to this sound: YouTube - Tron Legacy Soundtrack - End Titles (Track 21) <3 Tron xD
> 04.00 pm  and when I wake up I will fall asleep again and remember that the next time I wake up I will lay completely still and have closed eyes, and when  the next alarm 15 min later wakes me up and then turns itself off I use indirect techniques. (The only question here is: Can I fall asleep again?)



Falling asleep again is the hardest thing for me... nevermind. We will do it my friend. Good luck. lets meet in the lucid world. ;D

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## Kunal19

So you mean we have to wake up in a rem cycle to use these techniques..?

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## Purebred

haha. This night was a huge failure. I had FA when trying to WILD. My recall was VERY VERY bad, but I learned few things too. About anchors, wilding, milding and ofcouse I learned when it's the best time for me to WBTB. To sum up everything this night was a huge failure with a lot of good expeience. (Including indirect techniques)

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## MasterMind

> haha. This night was a huge failure. I had FA when trying to WILD. My recall was VERY VERY bad, but I learned few things too. About anchors, wilding, milding and ofcouse I learned when it's the best time for me to WBTB. To sum up everything this night was a huge failure with a lot of good expeience. (Including indirect techniques)




The alarm worked, but I forgot to turn off the snooze so when I lay there doing indirect techniques, the damn alarm started to ring and it woke up my parents x.x

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## whiterain

still no conscious seperations for me, but i broke a bit of a dry spell and had some intense phantom wiggling this morning. it eventually put me in a really intensely vivid fear dream, but this was good because it was easy to spot the dream. i watched this one of radugas vids before bed and used the swimming, wiggling, rotating and rubbing hands techs on awakening. getting closer all the time to not moving, in fact i made it this morning but the position i woke up in was so uncomfortable that eventually i just had to move. it just seems like i only wake up because of moving, but ill do it tomorrow  :wink2: 

good vid this

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## Kunal19

When you use swimming technique..How do you imagine it
i mean do you imagine that your room is filled with water and you are using your hands to swim..
Or you imagine yourself in a sea and swim..

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## Purebred

> When you use swimming technique..How do you imagine it
> i mean do you imagine that your room is filled with water and you are using your hands to swim..
> Or you imagine yourself in a sea and swim..



 When i practised I didn't think about details. When doing aggresively, you can't think if there are some water or no. xD Just freaking swim!!!
I don't have experience, but that's just what i did and it felt right when practising.

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## whiterain

i like to just try to swim through the air. just try to feel your hands out in front of you pulling you out of your body and into the air. if you dont feel it after a few seconds move onto another visualisation

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## Kunal19

Thanks guys...
You know why i asked this question..
Because suppose if we visualize walking...How will we do it..?
We are lying on bed...Lol...So we cant imagine walking in that position...We must think about road where we can walk...
_
btw last night i woke up around 5 times...But every time i moved...Damn it.. 
This is obvious...How can you sleep peacefully in a room where 3 people are snoring all together..

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## whiterain

i find walkind very hard. its because you have to visualise quite a few things at the same time like balance and movement. i find balance the hardest. whenever i have had a near wild by visualising walking, i suddenly find myself locally walking around, but as soon as i do, i fall on my ass and snap straight back to my body. leave the walking until you do something easier i reckon.

well ive had 3 straight wbtb lucids in a row now. they have all been really shoddy quality compared to where i was at a few weeks ago though. at least i am back to it though. its so tricky to find that balance, or the key things that are making you lucid because there are so many factors involved. i had been reading about lucid crossroads last night, so when lucid, rather than actually go there because i wasnt that conscious, i practiced writing my name on the wall so that if i ever got there i could try writing in the guestbook. it looked like a spider had scribbled 'dremviews whiterain' on the wall, then added the a later on. i really am stupid when i havent stabilised it properly....  ::D:

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## Vertebrate

Just thought I would share my first-night success story with you guys because it was crazy.

This morning I had three (THREE) lucid dream experiences back to back to back using these techniques. It was so weird. I woke up, remembered to do them, and I turned to my side and seperated by imagining I was falling off my futon. The first time I seperated I didn't have vision, only a sort of awareness of items around me. I got too excited and exited the dream. I immediately seperated again without using any techniques. This time I had vision to begin with and I touched everything in my room. It was weird, it wasn't my real room, it was much larger and there was no doorway it just went straight into the hallway.

I tested my RCs even though I knew I was lucid already, my hands were super deformed and kept being deformed every time I looked at them. Also, I was able to spread my fingers more than 180 degrees. The nose pinch felt so weird. I started looking at numbers and text and it changed very frequently.

I walked down the hallway and began to fade back to reality. I tried spinning but I was already awake, so I attempted seperation again. This time I rolled off and before I hit the ground I sort of floated upwards. When I arrived in the dreamscape I couldn't see so I began touching everything that was there. I noticed my "real body" laying on the futon, which when I started touching stood up and I had to pick it up and put it back onto the futon. By the way, there's no way I could lift myself like that, so for some reason I thought this was pretty funny. The dream was already stable so I continued to walk down the hallway and down the stairs at the end of the hallway. I met my little brother on the way, and then I ended up waking up.

At this point it was already late enough and I decided to get out of bed. These techniques are ridiculously easy. I was able to just separate 3 times in a row so I didn't have much a chance to practice the techniques. It's so weird... I just kinda fell out of my futon and into this dream world.

----------


## Purebred

> Just thought I would share my first-night success story with you guys because it was crazy.
> 
> This morning I had three (THREE) lucid dream experiences back to back to back using these techniques. It was so weird. I woke up, remembered to do them, and I turned to my side and seperated by imagining I was falling off my futon. The first time I seperated I didn't have vision, only a sort of awareness of items around me. I got too excited and exited the dream. I immediately seperated again without using any techniques. This time I had vision to begin with and I touched everything in my room. It was weird, it wasn't my real room, it was much larger and there was no doorway it just went straight into the hallway.
> 
> I tested my RCs even though I knew I was lucid already, my hands were super deformed and kept being deformed every time I looked at them. Also, I was able to spread my fingers more than 180 degrees. The nose pinch felt so weird. I started looking at numbers and text and it changed very frequently.
> 
> I walked down the hallway and began to fade back to reality. I tried spinning but I was already awake, so I attempted seperation again. This time I rolled off and before I hit the ground I sort of floated upwards. When I arrived in the dreamscape I couldn't see so I began touching everything that was there. I noticed my "real body" laying on the futon, which when I started touching stood up and I had to pick it up and put it back onto the futon. By the way, there's no way I could lift myself like that, so for some reason I thought this was pretty funny. The dream was already stable so I continued to walk down the hallway and down the stairs at the end of the hallway. I met my little brother on the way, and then I ended up waking up.
> 
> At this point it was already late enough and I decided to get out of bed. These techniques are ridiculously easy. I was able to just separate 3 times in a row so I didn't have much a chance to practice the techniques. It's so weird... I just kinda fell out of my futon and into this dream world.




Congatulations, SUCCESS. But I think it was OBE ;D. Can you tell which techniques did you use?

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## Vertebrate

> Congatulations, SUCCESS. But I think it was OBE ;D. Can you tell which techniques did you use?



Thanks! Anyway whatever you wanna call it I was going to use phantom wiggling, swimming, and rotating. I did this for about a minute after I woke up and got nothing, then I turned to my side to fall asleep again but I felt like I could fall off my futon so I felt the sensations of falling off my futon and I achieved instant separation, and then did it again twice when I came out of the experience.

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## Purebred

That was stranhe. You moved a lot. But I guess, it's possible ;D Now read how to deepen it.

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## Vertebrate

> That was stranhe. You moved a lot. But I guess, it's possible ;D Now read how to deepen it.



In one of his videos he says that while using indirect techniques if you move upon waking up you should still try, so I did.

On an off topic note, is your sig a reference to YuGiOh the abridged series?

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## Purebred

> In one of his videos he says that while using indirect techniques if you move upon waking up you should still try, so I did.
> 
> On an off topic note, is your sig a reference to YuGiOh the abridged series?




yes, I'er read his books and saw that video. Well, he says that you should stop trying, because of practise. i think ;D

Off topic note: Yeah, Abridge. ;D

----------


## Kunal19

> Just thought I would share my first-night success story with you guys because it was crazy.
> 
> This morning I had three (THREE) lucid dream experiences back to back to back using these techniques. It was so weird. I woke up, remembered to do them, and I turned to my side and seperated by imagining I was falling off my futon. The first time I seperated I didn't have vision, only a sort of awareness of items around me. I got too excited and exited the dream. I immediately seperated again without using any techniques. This time I had vision to begin with and I touched everything in my room. It was weird, it wasn't my real room, it was much larger and there was no doorway it just went straight into the hallway.
> 
> I tested my RCs even though I knew I was lucid already, my hands were super deformed and kept being deformed every time I looked at them. Also, I was able to spread my fingers more than 180 degrees. The nose pinch felt so weird. I started looking at numbers and text and it changed very frequently.
> 
> I walked down the hallway and began to fade back to reality. I tried spinning but I was already awake, so I attempted seperation again. This time I rolled off and before I hit the ground I sort of floated upwards. When I arrived in the dreamscape I couldn't see so I began touching everything that was there. I noticed my "real body" laying on the futon, which when I started touching stood up and I had to pick it up and put it back onto the futon. By the way, there's no way I could lift myself like that, so for some reason I thought this was pretty funny. The dream was already stable so I continued to walk down the hallway and down the stairs at the end of the hallway. I met my little brother on the way, and then I ended up waking up.
> 
> At this point it was already late enough and I decided to get out of bed. These techniques are ridiculously easy. I was able to just separate 3 times in a row so I didn't have much a chance to practice the techniques. It's so weird... I just kinda fell out of my futon and into this dream world.



bro are you saying that you tried to separate just after waking and without using those indirect techniques.......?
----------
guys if you have noticed
the author says to try to separate first and than use tehniques...but there is one problem suppose if i try to roll out and if i moved physically.........wont it spoil our chance to have obe/ld......?
there should be a movement free exit tec......

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## Purebred

> bro are you saying that you tried to separate just after waking and without using those indirect techniques.......?
> ----------
> guys if you have noticed
> the author says to try to separate first and than use tehniques...but there is one problem suppose if i try to roll out and if i moved physically.........wont it spoil our chance to have obe/ld......?
> there should be a movement free exit tec......



No, read more. He tried it for 1 minute. ;D

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## Vertebrate

> bro are you saying that you tried to separate just after waking and without using those indirect techniques.......?
> ----------
> guys if you have noticed
> the author says to try to separate first and than use tehniques...but there is one problem suppose if i try to roll out and if i moved physically.........wont it spoil our chance to have obe/ld......?
> there should be a movement free exit tec......



If you watch closely you will see that he says "with the indirect techniques if you move some after waking up you should immediately begin technique" I don't think moving completely ruins it, I just think that if you move like I did you are taking a chance that you will not be able to get into the phase. I got lucky I guess, and the reason I started this technique was because for the past 2 years I have been able to continue sleeping almost indefinitely and slip in and out of conciousness immediately after waking from a full nights sleep, and I always remembered dreams during this time. When I saw these techniques I thought to myself that during that time I must be very very close to the phase and using these techniques I was able to take full control of the phase.

There was a time when I was very depressed, and I would lay in bed for 3 or more hours after I woke up and eventually I started falling back asleep for 15-20 minute periods and waking with very cloudy memories and feelings from dreams, I was so depressed that I figured I was just thinking too hard about things and I should try to go back to sleep. I know of one occasion when I did this for almost 7 hours before getting my sorry ass out of bed.

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## Purebred

> If you watch closely you will see that he says "with the indirect techniques if you move some after waking up you should immediately begin technique" I don't think moving completely ruins it, I just think that if you move like I did you are taking a chance that you will not be able to get into the phase. I got lucky I guess, and the reason I started this technique was because for the past 2 years I have been able to continue sleeping almost indefinitely and slip in and out of conciousness immediately after waking from a full nights sleep, and I always remembered dreams during this time. When I saw these techniques I thought to myself that during that time I must be very very close to the phase and using these techniques I was able to take full control of the phase.
> 
> There was a time when I was very depressed, and I would lay in bed for 3 or more hours after I woke up and eventually I started falling back asleep for 15-20 minute periods and waking with very cloudy memories and feelings from dreams, I was so depressed that I figured I was just thinking too hard about things and I should try to go back to sleep. I know of one occasion when I did this for almost 7 hours before getting my sorry ass out of bed.



I want to ask. How much sleep did you have after waking up? Or did you use an alarm and then went to sleep and only then woke up (like he describes in his book).

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## Vertebrate

> I want to ask. How much sleep did you have after waking up? Or did you use an alarm and then went to sleep and only then woke up (like he describes in his book).



I went to bed at about 2:00AM and I got up at 7:30AM immediately after I did this and the whole experience lasted maybe 15 minutes. I had my alarm set for 8:00AM.

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## Kunal19

No i am saying that we should immediately try to separate after waking up...May be rolling out...

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## MasterMind

> No i am saying that we should immediately try to separate after waking up...May be rolling out...



Yeah it seems effective =) This night I had a lucid dream, but I was not that aware that I wanted to be I was still my dreamy mind that just act without thinking weird state. Next night I will try to separate immediately after awakening.

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## LucidPower

here is a link to an online readable version of '.... School of Out-of-Body Travel. A Practical Guidebook | by Michael Raduga    . I really hope that there is something of worth in this book as there are so many books which claim to have the best technique and the majority are useless such as lucidology.

----------


## Purebred

> here is a link to an online readable version of '.... School of Out-of-Body Travel. A Practical Guidebook | by Michael Raduga    . I really hope that there is something of worth in this book as there are so many books which claim to have the best technique and the majority are useless such as lucidology.



I like this book more than World Of Lucid dreaming. You must read it.

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## MasterMind

Everything works if you just believe in it enough, but these techniques works if you just try them with some motivation in a week  :smiley: 

I have a new alarm method to increase my chances further. Instead of using the CAN-WILD method that makes my phase entry almost impossible x( 
I use an alarm that wakes me up in rem (an Iphone app that registrates the movements during sleep and wakes me up in rem-sleep) then I fall asleep again with an intention to wake up consciously and if I don't (but I usually do). my chances of becoming conscious in a dream is still higher.
The name of the app is: Smart Alarm Clock: sleep cycles & noise recording, if anyone wanted to know xD

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## LucidReality93

Ok, I am a bit confused. If I separate from my body, how is the experience going to be different from lets say, observing images and consciously going into a dream scenario? By separating, am I still in a lucid dream but just starting from my room?

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## Vertebrate

> Ok, I am a bit confused. If I separate from my body, how is the experience going to be different from lets say, observing images and consciously going into a dream scenario? By separating, am I still in a lucid dream but just starting from my room?



You won't always start in the room you are actually in, but there is a fairly good chance it will at least be somewhere you've slept before. If you aren't observing any images then you can probably separate. Last time I went to bed in my room and woke up in my parents' house.

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## Kunal19

no succes yet.....even i was awake just after a dream.......
rotation is also complicated too.......i cant feel full 360 rotation.....

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## DREAMER242000

I have been successful four times so far three times using the wiggling method, the last time three nights
ago using the rollover method.
On every occasion i found myself standing in my bedroom.
Until reading this thread all of my lucids with the exception of one wild quite some time back,
had been dilds.

Luckily for me the first night i tried this method i had success with it even though i did not
expect it to work.
Good luck to everybody who tries this technique i hope you start to get results soon. :smiley:

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## Purebred

I almosth had an OBE yesterday. I could lift my arm very high using Phantom wiggling. I tried to seperat, But I guess I tried to arly and I failed.

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## MasterMind

Ok this night I used the rem alarm and I woke up in my rem sleep  :smiley:  so I am going to keep using that app. Then I fell asleep with the intention bla bla xD then I woke up aware, closed eyes and were perfectly still and I started to cycle techniques because I didn't dare to separate because I don't fully understand how to do so..
I did 2 cycles then I were angry because nothing happend (I have told myself to do 4 cycles x/ ) then I read what Michael Raduga had to say about this and he had a story about to persons who were discussing why the fail in their attempts and one of them had only done 2 cycles and the other one had also only done 2 cycles and then another person walks up to them and tell that he had done one cycle more and on the other two cycles he had not felt any sensation but on the third he got the phase! So the next night I will do 4 cycles  :smiley:

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## Kunal19

how do you rotate.........?
i mean which one is the axis......from the head to toe or from ceiling to ground.......?

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## Nilabimini

Well, I think my brain is starting to accept some of these techniques (breathing concentration is the most awesome for me!) because last night I became lucid in a dream and I did an RC for the first time ever in a dream (I counted my fingers and had 11 of them)!!  ::banana::   But after I was lucid, I think I lost it from excitement, and attempted to "roll out of my body" in the kitchen, I just flipped/rolled from my side onto the hard kitchen floor ::shock::   ....but I was so happy about doing an RC, this is a humongous step for me!

Woo Hoo!

*Also, I went to bed at 1945 and woke up at 2359 (all on my own) and I couldn't get back to sleep, so I stayed up for about 2.5 hours watching a show, then went back to sleep and that's when I had my LD.... so I guess maybe this means that I should try waking myself up after about 5 or 5.5 hours of sleep??

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## Nilabimini

REM alarm where?  Where do I find one of those at??

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## MasterMind

> REM alarm where?  Where do I find one of those at??



If you have an Iphone or Ipod there is an app called "Smart Alarm Clock" that you lay on bed and the Iphone or Ipod registrate the movements in your sleep and then it wakes you up at the time which is the easiest to get up from bed which is the rem state. it only costs 0.99 $ 

Now I understand everything perfectly and now I am only waiting to have one ONE conscious awakening, and I am ready to go! 
My Intention is not strong enough for some reason :S

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## Mrsf0011

> Hello to all forum members,
> 
> It sounds too good to be true doesn't it to be able to have an instant WILD?  Another forum member has posted a thread about how to do this but unfortunately what worked for them won't work for most people.  Hence why there are so many disappointing replys.  There is a method that will work for everyone and I thought I would kickstart this again with a brand new thread.
> 
> On my third day at attempting an instant WILD I had one.  Well to be completely honest it took fifteen seconds to enter a full blown lucid dream from waking awareness.  Now before I tell you what I did to have an instant WILD you may be asking whilst reading it, "What on Earth is he talking about?  Straining the brain, phantom wiggling, that just doesn't make any sense?"  I will explain everything afterwards.  By the way this is not DEILD as I have reproduced positive results in N-REM sleep using an alarm.
> 
> I woke up and immediately applied "Phantom Wiggling" on my left arm for five seconds and my dream-arm was moving freely.  I could at this point have had an OBE but I wanted a lucid dream.  After five seconds of "Phantom Wiggling" I switched to five seconds of "Listening In".  After about two seconds of listening in to the high pitched natural sound inside my head it started to increase in volume.  After five seconds I still hadn't entered a dream so I switched to five seconds of "Observing Images".  I didn't see anything so I switched to "Straining the Brain".  Immediately the high pitched sound in my head became very loud so I immediately switched to "Listening In" again.  I saw a purple pool of water and thought the clarity of that is very clear and then I found myself fully immersed in a lucid dream.  I was in a deep, beautiful valley with lambs frolicking about.  I looked around and marvelled at the ability to be able to have a lucid dream in a matter of seconds.  I enjoyed my lucid dream...
> 
> What is the process of what I described above?  I'm going to give you a phenomenal statistic.  75% of people have an instantaneous lucid dream or an OBE within one week of using the method that I have described above.  If you were to follow exactly what I did above you might not succeed.  To be able to have an instant WILD then you must read this FREE 227 page downloadable e-book called, 'School of Out of Body Travel - A Practical Guidebook' by Michael Raduga.
> ...



this worked forme on first attempt except i wanted a lucid dream but found my self in OBE. what do you do when your doing the wiggling and stuff with your leg and it starts viberating do you keep swiching to diffrent methods?

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## Purebred

> this worked forme on first attempt except i wanted a lucid dream but found my self in OBE. what do you do when your doing the wiggling and stuff with your leg and it starts viberating do you keep swiching to diffrent methods?



When vibrating starts you should immediately try seperation. ;D

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## MasterMind

Woohoo! Last night I woke up from the rem alarm and started to say out loud "I wake up with my eyes closed and I am still and aware" then I went to bed again.
When I woke up I started to observe the images that appeared, then I were in a dreamscene. I was hiding from the police with Michael Scofield and Lincoln Burrows from prison break and the house I were in was surrounded, but then I said "What ever it's my dream!" and I flew away xD But the dream police chased me and in the flight I forgot to stabilize the dream.. so the lucidity slowly faded  away, then I was cought by the FBI and the dream ended.

Seems like I need to use an intention to remember to stabilize my dream too...

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## Nilabimini

> how do you rotate.........?
> i mean which one is the axis......from the head to toe or from ceiling to ground.......?



They are both sort of the same concept.  But he means head to toe axis... as if there is a pole straight down the center of your body from head to toe and you are spinning like a doll on it.  You may also want to stand in a open space while you are awake and slowly spin around, staying in the same spot for a bit... then try it a couple of times with your eyes closed just to let your brain understand the feeling and sensation of the rotation, so that it may be able to see that perspective during the technique?

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## Vertebrate

> how do you rotate.........?
> i mean which one is the axis......from the head to toe or from ceiling to ground.......?



To add to Nilabimini's response: 




> You may also want to stand in a open space while you are awake and slowly spin around, staying in the same spot for a bit... then try it a couple of times with your eyes closed just to let your brain understand the feeling and sensation of the rotation, so that it may be able to see that perspective during the technique?



For me it really, really helps to move my eyes in the direction of rotation. Because your eyes are connected to your vestibular sense directly, doing this almost makes you feel like your head is actually rotating. From there you should start to feel the actual rotation.

The best visualization technique I have been able to come up with so far is to imagine I am laying in a hammock. I start swinging back and forth, and from there I keep swinging further and further. You need to really feel it though, it's not enough to just see it.

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## Spyguy

I've read the entire book, did everything Michael wrote. 2 weeks, no results. I'm not saying it's a bad book or anything, but I think his 'indirect techniques' dont work for everyone. Might try it again sometime. I switched back to MILD/DILD ( which he refers to as dream conciousness), and it has had the best results for me. Also gunna try to WILD soon.

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## MikeMk

> rotation is also complicated too.......i cant feel full 360 rotation.....



 As I know, it is enough to rotate even only for 90. Just try to separate from the body from this position.

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## MasterMind

I changed my routine to the better =) 
Usually when I woke up from the 6 hour alarm I get out of bed only for some seconds or I didn't get up at all. This time I forced myself to get all the way to the bathroom and then go back to bed with the intention and everything worked as it should. I woke up observed the images and found myself standing in my living room! I looked at my hands and it was blurry and I was now lucid. But something was different... This experience was very vivid, more vivid than it normally is it felt like REALITY! Once again I forgot to use deepening and maintaining the dream, but this experience last for 1 minute and then I woke up and I did not try to get back to the dream for some reason, but anyhow this experience really gave me back my motivation and now I know that the method works only if you do it CORRECTLY!

Woohoo! .. Tonight when I enter the dream I will remember to use stabilization techniques.

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## MasterMind

This night I did the same routine,I dreamed abouta golden guitar pick and then I woke up and moved a little so I used forced falling asleep then I observed images and saw nothing, changed to listening in heard nothing, tried to phantom wiggling felt nothing... I observed images again and I saw a light! Then I was standing in my kitchen holding my golden pick from my previous dream and I looked at the clock hangin on the wall but it looked different than usual it had black and golden colours but in the "real" world it is white and black so now I knew for sure that I was dreaming. I remembered to use deepning techniques and I walked outside my door and it was raining and I was freezing, here I sort of doubt that it was a dream because it felt so real. But I walked out and touche the ground and the rain and breathe in the rainy air and I walked out to the street. I saw a man with two childs my first lucid dream DCs that were strangers. Then I decided to walk around in my neighbourhood but I lost my lucidity here because I didn't remember how to do maintaining techniques, because I have not read that yet. But this lucid dream lasted for approximately 5 minutes and then I woke up too excited to chain the dream x) 

Tomorrow I will be prepared to maintain the dream too.

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## bakbaba

Hello, I made a separate thread about this but another member recommended that I post this here (I didn't know that there was a thread on Dreaviews devoted to these techniques that I just randomly picked up from websites)
So here is what happened-





> A few nights ago, I woke up in the middle of the night, just randomly. I was going to open my eyes, but then I remembered reading that it was easier to go into sleep paralysis and then an LD after waking up from sleep.... so I kept my eyes closed and decided to WILD. I decided to try out a few techniques which I had read about earlier, which I had heard can help people induce LDs and OBEs. First of all, I tried something called 'phantom wiggling', which is basically, trying to move your body parts without moving any of your muscles... to separate from your actual body. I usually have trouble with this... but when I tried it.... I moved my arm almost all the way to the torso..without using my muscles (or at least it felt that way)... and then I moved my entire body and rested it in such a position that I was surprised that I could balance it at all! The movement felt so real... maybe it WAS real... but I didnt open my eyes to check, I couldn't miss this chance..
> Next, I tried to listen to that buzzing sound that I usually get in my head when I try to WILD... it was really really loud, almost as loud as a jet plain... but my ears didnt hurt at all. Next I tried something called 'straining the brain'. In this technique... you must attempt to twitch and squeeze the brain (while forgetting that it is impossible to do so)... as soon as I did this, I immediately felt my brain compress, and just a split second later, I ears totally exploded with this strange noise... first it was like a BLOOOB and then a WOOOOOSH... all of a sudden, I felt my body lift up into the air at such a great speed... faster than a roller coaster. My body kept going up... up above... I saw streaks of purple light pass me by (which is strange because my eyes were closed) as I went higher and faster. After maybe one or two seconds, it felt as if I had ascended into a new layer... this layer was scary... there were streaks of red here... I felt evil-ness, and I 'felt' something that resembled demons or ghosts... I also think I heard screams. This was scary, but I kept my eyes shut... and soon, I was out of this layer... after which I stopped ascending.... and felt silence and calmness..no more noise.... I felt as if I was above everything... my house, me, the sky.... I thought 'WOOOOHOOOO!!!' and opened my eyes to see the view, but I found myself laying in bed. I wasnt in the position that I remember balancing either... I was back in the position I had originally fallen asleep in.
> So WHAT was this? O_o
> Have any of you had similar experiences? Was this an OBE? and LD? a false awakening?



Hmmm.... I do not know what this rolling over method is... but when I was trying out phantom wiggling I almost rolled my entire body over.. so would it be called rolling over?
I opened my eyes only when everything had settled down... but I found myself back in bed... why so? What did I do wrong (I think my opening my eyes is probably the reason this all didnt work out)?

----------


## Nilabimini

Hey, glad u found the thread...

Also, here is the link to the free ebook by Michael Raduga that I also told you about.  He talks in depth about the same techniques that you have tried.  He also has forums that you can join  :smiley:

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## bakbaba

> Hey, glad u found the thread...
> 
> Also, here is the link to the free ebook by Michael Raduga that I also told you about.  He talks in depth about the same techniques that you have tried.  He also has forums that you can join



Yup, I've already downloaded, and am reading, the e-book. Thanks.
I thought I was really lucky to have an 'experience' after just a few attempts, but after reading a little bit of his book, I found out that it is quite normal for people to have some kind of progress with these techniques.

I want to know if any of you have experienced these 'layers' in OBEs, have you?

----------


## MasterMind

No lucid dream this night =/ The 3 days I got lucid dreams I went to bed 10 pm and got up 4 am. But now in the weekend I  went to bed 12 pm and got up 5 pm o.O
Not enough sleep compared to the other days and not like the book said, so that is why I failed. I usually can't WILD in the weekends anyway, but I will try again this night. And now I am going to get up 6 hours after sleep ...

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## philauto

thanks very much for posting this, it worked rediculously well after just getting through about a third of it. ill be sure to finish reading it
heres a link to where you can read it online
School of Out-of-Body Travel. A Practical Guidebook | by Michael Raduga

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## Kunal19

something interesting happened yesterday.....
i woke up and started sttaring at the blackness behind my eyelids.....than i saw some visuals.......after some time the image started zooming and started becoming real.......but than suddenly my fear for obe overpowered me and i broke the phase state intentionally

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## MasterMind

Why do you fear an obe ? o.O

----------


## Kunal19

Yesterday night was a bit strange..
I woke up 3-4 times but always moved my body..
But around 5 am i woke up and opened my eyes...And after 1 minute i slept again..
Than around 9 am i started having consciousness but i found myself in sleep paralysis..
First i thought lets break sp but than i thought its a golden chance...Dont spoil it..
So i just relaxed and i started feeling vibrations....
After some time i tried to roll out and almost got separated but there was a strong force around my chest area...It pulled me..
Before i could do anything my mom came and started yelling...Get up..Get up...And just moved my body...Lol
this is the worst thing when you are having obe

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## whiterain

i woke up pretty still this morning and swam with my dream body while forgetting my real body and got back into the dream lucid. i think doing the movements really aggresively is the key, i was really thrashing around and it was pretty easy. in fact in the dream i think i met someone who represented mr raduga and i was talking about this to him and his mate

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## DREAMER242000

Had another lucid last night using the rollover method as on every occasion i found myself
standing by my bed, the dream lasted about five minutes and was very vivid.
What i love most about this instant wild method is the fact that your lucid right at the start
of the dream as apposed to becoming aware further into the dream because of a dild.
 :smiley:

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## MasterMind

> Had another lucid last night using the rollover method as on every occasion i found myself
> standing by my bed, the dream lasted about five minutes and was very vivid.
> What i love most about this instant wild method is the fact that your lucid right at the start
> of the dream as apposed to becoming aware further into the dream because of a dild.



Indeed  ::D:  I have had a lucid dream every time I have done this technique like he describe t should be done. Now I almsot know that I will have a lucid dream tonight, because this is no luck or skill it's just doing it and you have full control over the process.

----------


## Kunal19

Its not working for me...I am trying from so many days now..
May be i need some practise first...
I wake up almost after dream...I should try dield instead...
But dield should have worked already if it will work....Because i dont move while using these techniques..
Gosh what will happen..
__
@dreamer242000
which rollover method you are talking about..?

----------


## Purebred

> Its not working for me...I am trying from so many days now..
> May be i need some practise first...
> I wake up almost after dream...I should try dield instead...
> But dield should have worked already if it will work....Because i dont move while using these techniques..
> Gosh what will happen..
> __
> @dreamer242000
> which rollover method you are talking about..?




I know what you're doing wrong. You try after every dream, when you should wake up after about 6 hours of sleeping, than go to sleep again, than wake up and only then try.

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## Kunal19

But whats wrong in trying after dream...
It should work too..
It is natural for me...I wake up 
2-3 times during sleep and almost every time i wake up from dream...
Are you talking about deferred method..?

----------


## Purebred

> But whats wrong in trying after dream...
> It should work too..
> It is natural for me...I wake up 
> 2-3 times during sleep and almost every time i wake up from dream...
> Are you talking about deferred method..?



No. You should read book CAREFULY. ;D
1. Wake up after sleeping 6 hours using an alarm.
2. Go to sleep with huge intention to be AWARE when you wake up.
3. Wake up, don't move or open your eyes and perform induction techniqeus. 
4. Enjoy your LD. ;D

----------


## MasterMind

> No. You should read book CAREFULY. ;D
> 1. Wake up after sleeping 6 hours using an alarm.
> 2. Go to sleep with huge intention to be AWARE when you wake up.
> 3. Wake up, don't move or open your eyes and perform induction techniqeus. 
> 4. Enjoy your LD. ;D



Hihi xD works like a charm.
But to wake up to an alarm and then fall asleep again to wake up naturally is what we on this forum call WBTB, but Michael Raduga call it deffered method
and it's the best way to get successful, to wake up after a dream is good too, but the longer you sleep the more chance it is that you are in your rem sleep.
This technique works if you do exactly as it is written in the book, and if you not use the deffered method you are going to have less successful attempts than those who use the deffered method, but you are still going to be successful it only means that you have to do more attempts than others.

I use the deffered method and it have worked every time on school days, except for last night because I gave up when I were only minutes or even seconds away from the phase...
But the book have given me 7 lucid dreams in 2 weeks but I don't pracctise on weekends so 9 days =)

----------


## Purebred

> Hihi xD works like a charm.
> But to wake up to an alarm and then fall asleep again to wake up naturally is what we on this forum call WBTB, but Michael Raduga call it deffered method
> and it's the best way to get successful, to wake up after a dream is good too, but the longer you sleep the more chance it is that you are in your rem sleep.
> This technique works if you do exactly as it is written in the book, and if you not use the deffered method you are going to have less successful attempts than those who use the deffered method, but you are still going to be successful it only means that you have to do more attempts than others.
> 
> I use the deffered method and it have worked every time on school days, except for last night because I gave up when I were only minutes or even seconds away from the phase...
> But the book have given me 7 lucid dreams in 2 weeks but I don't pracctise on weekends so 9 days =)



What I would like to do is WBTB, than WILD, and if normal WILD fails I can go to sleep and try this instant WILD (I call it DEILD) method. It's like 2 techniques in one night.

----------


## DREAMER242000

> Its not working for me...I am trying from so many days now..
> May be i need some practise first...
> I wake up almost after dream...I should try dield instead...
> But dield should have worked already if it will work....Because i dont move while using these techniques..
> Gosh what will happen..
> __
> @dreamer242000
> which rollover method you are talking about..?



In answer to your question Kunal19
I like you tend to wake up two or three times during a normal nights sleep
and every time i do this i keep perfectly still with my eyes closed and first
thing i try is the phantom wiggling of my arm or fingers, if this fails then i
try to Rollover, If my body is facing left i try to imagine turning my body
to face right, i do this several times if i get no results i go back to sleep 
and repeat on my next awakening.
This is how i have been getting my results i hope this helps you and you
start having success. :smiley:

----------


## MasterMind

> What I would like to do is WBTB, than WILD, and if normal WILD fails I can go to sleep and try this instant WILD (I call it DEILD) method. It's like 2 techniques in one night.



I understand your situation, you have an annoying roommate.
Michael Raduga say that many novice pracctioner is tempted to do both direct and indirect techniques on the same day, but the pracctioner tire themself out and only get frustrated when they don't succed and that they will have more difficulties with entering the phase if they do both. But what the hell  ::D:  Proove him wrong! 
But have in my mind that he have got all his information from 300 students, but maybe you are THE ONE? x)

----------


## Purebred

> I understand your situation, you have an annoying roommate.
> Michael Raduga say that many novice pracctioner is tempted to do both direct and indirect techniques on the same day, but the pracctioner tire themself out and only get frustrated when they don't succed and that they will have more difficulties with entering the phase if they do both. But what the hell  Proove him wrong! 
> But have in my mind that he have got all his information from 300 students, but maybe you are THE ONE? x)



Every teenager thinks he is special. xD I do too. I don't know what should I do. Should I try indirect or direct? I got direct working on my first try, but it's very risky, because of my roommate..... Hmmm...
OFFTOPIC. xD

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## Kunal19

Is this deferred method good for health and sleep...?
Do you guys perform deferred method every night(i mean whenever you wanna try indirect techniques..)...?

----------


## MasterMind

> Every teenager thinks he is special. xD I do too. I don't know what should I do. Should I try indirect or direct? I got direct working on my first try, but it's very risky, because of my roommate..... Hmmm...
> OFFTOPIC. xD



Indirect techniques is the best to start out with, but if you can't do the deffered method you should try to notice your awakening during the night, it's harder, but when you can do this you are atleast a natural lucid dreamer =) I believe in you  ::D: 





> Is this deferred method good for health and sleep...?
> Do you guys perform deferred method every night(i mean whenever you wanna try indirect techniques..)...?



I used to do it every night, but Michael Raduga told me that a novice pracctioner should only do it 3-4 times per the first two years.
But when I want to use indirect, which is on every attempt, I use the deffered method yes, because it's the best and it allways gives me results.
I did an attempt without the deffered method once, but nothing seemed to happen for me, but the next attempt I did the deffered method and I heard a loud high pitched noise instantly and listened in, but I thought I was still awake, I even got out of bed, but I was dissapointed so I got back to bed, but i was actually in the phase. Deffered method is what give most people results, but notice awakening works too, but it is a little harder to find you rem periods I guess.

----------


## Kunal19

What!
3-4 times per the first two years...?

----------


## Purebred

> What!
> 3-4 times per the first two years...?



He means 3 - 4 times per weak duting your first years of practise.

----------


## MasterMind

> He man 3 - 4 times per weak duting your first years of practise.



xD Yeah of course !

3-4 days / week in the first 2-3 year of pracctise ^^

----------


## Kunal19

guys can anybody share a full obe experience which you experienced using indirect techniques ( specially deffered method)......?
i mean how did you exit and deepning and all.......was it dull at first....

----------


## MasterMind

> guys can anybody share a full obe experience which you experienced using indirect techniques ( specially deffered method)......?
> i mean how did you exit and deepning and all.......was it dull at first....



Ok I am still new pracctioner, I started to read the book 3 weeks ago and I have been pracctising the techniques for 11 days. My lucid dreams before this method was often very unstable and were often movie like and didn't felt like reality. Anyhow, one night I got to bed and set my alarm to wake me up 6 hours later (this was a schoolday so I went to bed 10 pm) When the alarm woke me up 6 hours later I struggled with getting up from bed, because I was so tired.
But I asked myself (Do I want to the phase?" "Yeah." "Then get up you lazy ba*tard xD) so I went to the bathroom. Then I went back to bed again.
I created an intention to be aware of my awakening and start using indirect techniques and then fell asleep. When I noticed my awakening I started to observe images (I don't have controll enough to separate in my bedroom so I teleported to another location to start my phase there) I was suddenly standing in my kitchen and the experience felt like I had just woke up, but this time in the phase. I started to rub my hands and everything started to be more clear and stable. I saw that it was raining outside, I wasn't sure that I wanted to go out but, it was a dream so I thought that I might not feel the cold. When I were outside I felt the cold rain dripping on my body. I was amazed how real the experience was, because it felt REAL! I started to touch the ground and my dad's car and the dream was now very real and stable. But I didn't use the deepening techniques enough, and 5 minutes later I lost my lucidity.
When I had used the deepening techniques I wanted to visit my school in the dream, just to see how alike it would be. I walked down to the street and saw DC's walking, it felt like reality. Now the deepening techniques stopped working and I started to believe that I was in the "real" world and I was now dreaming normally. This is the best and most vivid experience I have had so far.
Last night I were in the phase, but didn't realise it, but I were still in my bed so it was like a false awakening. Next time I will not make the same misstake.
But for now I have a break, because Michael Raduga suggest that phase entry only should be pracctised 3-4 days per week otherwise you risk to have a dryspell for weeks. 

I really hope that this helped you  ::D:  The phase is awesome, but the method is even more awesome, because instead of realising that you are dreaming to become lucid, you just have to notice that you have woke up and then become lucid  ::D:

----------


## Vertebrate

> The phase is awesome, but the method is even more awesome, because instead of realising that you are dreaming to become lucid, you just have to notice that you have woke up and then become lucid



That's the hardest part for me. I've been so busy lately I haven't had time to do this. And, when I finally got time (at home) it didn't help much because my family kept waking me up.  :armflap: 
The good news is that I've got a job. The bad news is that I probably won't have time on weekdays for any of this because I have a job.

----------


## MasterMind

> That's the hardest part for me. I've been so busy lately I haven't had time to do this. And, when I finally got time (at home) it didn't help much because my family kept waking me up. 
> The good news is that I've got a job. The bad news is that I probably won't have time on weekdays for any of this because I have a job.



=/ How much do you sleep? 
You don't have to use the deffered method, you can just affirm before you go to sleep that you will notice your micro awakenings.
This is a little harder, but when you start to get the hang of it you can atleast pracctise on weekdays.

----------


## MadMonkey

I havn't read the book and only read the first page of this threade but it seems like it is some good stuff. I had figured out about phantom wiggling myself while trying to WILD. I always try and imagine the sensation of moving my arm without actualy moving my physical arm. It starts out being very subtle but as it goes on I can move my arm more and more. Im still not good at WILD though so maby I will practice some of these.

----------


## whiterain

> I havn't read the book and only read the first page of this threade but it seems like it is some good stuff. I had figured out about phantom wiggling myself while trying to WILD. I always try and imagine the sensation of moving my arm without actualy moving my physical arm. It starts out being very subtle but as it goes on I can move my arm more and more. Im still not good at WILD though so maby I will practice some of these.



just remember to sleep first, try the movements as agressively as possible and then move on to another visualisation if you dont feel anything pretty soon. good luck

----------


## Jay12341235

this method works for me when I awake on my back. When I do, I can remember to lay completely still unlike when I wake on my side for some reason. When I do wake on my back and don't move, I start to vibrate quite intensely. After that I enter a dream, but it's pretty unclear and ends fast. I should probably use deepening techniques. I should also mention that I don't wake up after 6 hours of sleep and go back to bed either, would this help?

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## Kunal19

How did you teleport mastermind..?

----------


## MasterMind

> I havn't read the book and only read the first page of this threade but it seems like it is some good stuff. I had figured out about phantom wiggling myself while trying to WILD. I always try and imagine the sensation of moving my arm without actualy moving my physical arm. It starts out being very subtle but as it goes on I can move my arm more and more. Im still not good at WILD though so maby I will practice some of these.



Yeah you really should read the boo =) if you manage to phantom wiggle upon awakening it means that the technique is working and you are in the phase!
all you have to do now is to figure out a way to switch your awareness from the physical body to the phantom body. Everything is explained in the book, but some of the chapters are harder to understand without own experience.
So if you have any questions you can ask Michael on his forum, because he has the answer to everything, and you can ask me, because I have answers to some of the problem I have encountered. They are all in my signature though  ::D: 





> this method works for me when I awake on my back. When I do, I can remember to lay completely still unlike when I wake on my side for some reason. When I do wake on my back and don't move, I start to vibrate quite intensely. After that I enter a dream, but it's pretty unclear and ends fast. I should probably use deepening techniques. I should also mention that I don't wake up after 6 hours of sleep and go back to bed either, would this help?



If you wake up after 6 hours of sleep your rem period is longer, so it's easier to get into a dream. But if your experience is clear enough to use deepening techniques it should work. But I don't know because I have only done the deffered method (6 hours of sleep before an attempt) 





> How did you teleport mastermind..?



Hehe not teleport like a superpower xD 
Teleport is a word they use on Michael Raduga's forum to describe that you don't start out you phase experience in your bedroom, but "teleport" and start out the experience somewhere else. If I start out in my bedroom, I think my mind believes I have woke up, but I am in the phase and there is more control of the attempt so the experience last longer.

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## Kunal19

thanks 
but i am having false awakenings and dreams of having an obe lol
i wanna have a real obe but i end up having an dream of having obe......while trying for indirect techniques.......
and if i somehow end up in obe situation......its damn hard to separate.....the resistence is really powerfull......thats why i was asking for teleportation thing......so i dont need to separate.....
how to avoid false awakenings and dreams of having an obe......?

----------


## MasterMind

> thanks 
> but i am having false awakenings and dreams of having an obe lol
> i wanna have a real obe but i end up having an dream of having obe......while trying for indirect techniques.......
> and if i somehow end up in obe situation......its damn hard to separate.....the resistence is really powerfull......thats why i was asking for teleportation thing......so i dont need to separate.....
> how to avoid false awakenings and dreams of having an obe......?



Well here you have reached my level  ::D: 
I have been in the phase 2 times now, but not realising that it was the phase, but indirect techniques is all about control. 

So I quote Michael Radugas answer when I asked the same question. 

"It is very simple: ANY performance of ANY techniques, ANY unreal sensations upon awakenings mean the phase! I can gurantee it

When you will get it in your mind, you will use these situations every time"

So when you use the techniques, everytimw when you feel that the techniques are working, for example: you hear a loud beeping noise when you listen in.
Then You ARE IN THE PHASE! Use separation technique to be sure that you use your phantom body: Imagine, AND really try to feel real sensations, that you getting out, rolling out or sinking through the bed. When you feel the real sensations you are using your phantom body and use separate by the body in which you feel the sensations. It's hard to imagine how to do that now, but when you are doing it it is very simple. I can tell you from my ahum ... attempt last night..

I copy it from my blog:

I didn't have any intention to pracctise phase entry for more than 3-4 days. But this morning I woke up and then fell asleep again and woke up and fell asleep and so on. And suddenly I was just more aware of my dream and something odd happend and I realised that I was dreaming. Shocked of the lucidity, because I was not prepared for this, I woke up. I opened my eyes and looked at the clock, I had slept for 6 hours. I heard the tv in my house and I started to think about random stuff and I tried to fall asleep. My awareness switched from the tv to the now very vivid thought and it kept going back and forth. Then I was only in the thought and I was now in the phase! I didn't use any deepening techniques because I was not prepared for the phase this day... Next night I am only going to sleep. Like it was planned the previous night x)

On this attempt I used "teleportation" to separate, because I was not supposed to go to the phase this day. But if I had been prepared instead of imagine another location I would have imagined myself getting out of bed and sort of trick the mind that I have woke up, but I know that I am in the phase. Making the False awakening become a conscious phantom awakening and from here I am supposed to use deepening and mantaining techniques. But like I wrote before... Next night I am NOT supposed to go to the phase I NEED REST! xD

I hope that this answered your questions somehow  :smiley:  
Good luck to you, but you won't need it it is easy!
... When you understand HOW.

----------


## Lucidreaman

I want to thank to all you guys posting here in this thread and mainly to it's originator.
Finally I was able to experience WILD and it was great.

Today I woke up around 5AM, got up for a while and returned to bed. Then I tried to relax and get to sleepy state but wasn't successful for quite a time, and eventhough I felt my mind floating there and back I somehow couldn't conduct indirect techniques well. So I turned to lay on my chest and fell asleep.

Next thing I felt was rolling my body - it was such a real feeling that at first I was afraid that I will fall from my bed. But then I somehow realized that I don't need to worry about it and soon I was in lucid dream - in that time without any vision but as soon as  I started to stabilize it, vision appeared and I was in full LD.  ::D: 

Hope that I can do it again soon.  ::goodjob2::

----------


## Sarge_Maximus2

Alright so I've been doing quite a bit of research about lucid dreaming and Meditation in particular, and began experimenting with third eye meditation. I also read a few topics and the e-book mentioned in this topic and eventually I realised that the "free-floating" state of mind is something that I experience rather regularily. Mainly when I'm on break at work and I listen to my music and meditate on it, I get the sensation that I'm millions of miles in the air yet still inside my own body/floating. It's the strangest feeling but I've had it a lot over the course of my life. So I decided to perhaps pursue the direct techniques as this free-floating seems to come to me rather easily when listening to music. I guess I'm wondering if my assumptions here are correct and if not, any advice would be glorious. Thank you so much.  :smiley:

----------


## Kunal19

> I want to thank to all you guys posting here in this thread and mainly to it's originator.
> Finally I was able to experience WILD and it was great.
> 
> Today I woke up around 5AM, got up for a while and returned to bed. Then I tried to relax and get to sleepy state but wasn't successful for quite a time, and eventhough I felt my mind floating there and back I somehow couldn't conduct indirect techniques well. So I turned to lay on my chest and fell asleep.
> 
> Next thing I felt was rolling my body - it was such a real feeling that at first I was afraid that I will fall from my bed. But then I somehow realized that I don't need to worry about it and soon I was in lucid dream - in that time without any vision but as soon as  I started to stabilize it, vision appeared and I was in full LD. 
> 
> Hope that I can do it again soon.



haha you also experienced obe in a dream
obe in a dream is basically ld because we know that we were trying for phase

----------


## Kunal19

> I want to thank to all you guys posting here in this thread and mainly to it's originator.
> Finally I was able to experience WILD and it was great.
> 
> Today I woke up around 5AM, got up for a while and returned to bed. Then I tried to relax and get to sleepy state but wasn't successful for quite a time, and eventhough I felt my mind floating there and back I somehow couldn't conduct indirect techniques well. So I turned to lay on my chest and fell asleep.
> 
> Next thing I felt was rolling my body - it was such a real feeling that at first I was afraid that I will fall from my bed. But then I somehow realized that I don't need to worry about it and soon I was in lucid dream - in that time without any vision but as soon as  I started to stabilize it, vision appeared and I was in full LD. 
> 
> Hope that I can do it again soon.



haha you also experienced obe in a dream
obe in a dream is basically ld because we know that we were trying for phase

----------


## Lucidreaman

Yes, I don't consider it to be OBE - just the feeling of rolling out was unusual for LD.   :smiley:

----------


## r2d2651

I'm just getting here and I don't feel like wading through 18 pages to see... How successful has this technique been for most people? It seems pretty popular... And too good to be true?

----------


## Sarge_Maximus2

I have had no success as of yet, but to be honest I havn't given it my full attention because it doesn't appeal to me, and I've had instant success with other techniques. I'm looking for sustainability though, and the other techniques seem to be more hit and miss. And while I trust this technique, I do not seem to be geared towards it, as getting my head wrapped around some of the specifics is grueling to me at times. Mostly I need clarity from experience lol.

----------


## Vertebrate

> I'm just getting here and I don't feel like wading through 18 pages to see... How successful has this technique been for most people? It seems pretty popular... And too good to be true?



It worked for me two times in a row the first two nights I tried it. I was so excited/frightened that I was unable to deepen the "phase". It requires focus and intent to wake up aware and to instantly try to separate and rotate techniques.

I have been very distracted and busy lately, however, so I have not been able to succeed since.

----------


## Kunal19

guys which separation technique is the easiest.....i mean which technique will give less resistance in separation.....?
i tried roll out but i feel high resistance and strong pull towards chest area

----------


## MasterMind

> guys which separation technique is the easiest.....i mean which technique will give less resistance in separation.....?
> i tried roll out but i feel high resistance and strong pull towards chest area



Then you are doing it right, but I allways try to separate when I am 100 % sure that it will work. For example if I do a separation technique (imagine the sensations of getting out of bed in some way, and really try to feel it) and when I feel real sensations of me doing it, then all I have to do is to try to feel these sensations even more and suddenly I am there (I only feel those sensations).
That's how I separate, but I haven't been able to separate in my bedroom yet :/

----------


## luffy28

I needed advice on trying this technique. A couple of nights ago I woke up still, but I couldn't stay still for long cause it was making me go crazy.

Any advice ?

----------


## Kunal19

I tried deferred method today...And it was third time..
Last two times it worked but today it didnt work...
What can be the reason guys..?
Was it because i woke up during the sleep(before 6 hours) for around 5 minutes..?
Is it necessary to have straight 6 hours sleep for deferred method..?

----------


## MasterMind

> I tried deferred method today...And it was third time..
> Last two times it worked but today it didnt work...
> What can be the reason guys..?
> Was it because i woke up during the sleep(before 6 hours) for around 5 minutes..?
> Is it necessary to have straight 6 hours sleep for deferred method..?



Deffered method gives you the best result if you sleep 6 hours yes, but if you don't succed you are doing something wrong, read the book carefully and find out WHAT!
I am going to do the same because this week I have had a dryspell :/
But I know my misstake, I have been pracctising the deffered method for too long so I need to take a break and this weekend I am doing so.

And if you feel like you are going crazy when you are laying still, it only means that you are close be patient x)

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## Lucidreaman

M. Raduga sais that in fact it doesn't matter how long you sleep - what is important is the waking up - that shift of mind.
But truth is that deferred method has some advantages - which are clearly explained in the book. Go and study.   :Cheeky:

----------


## luffy28

Can anyone answer this question ?

Is it good to sleep for 4 hours then wake up and then try the indirect techniques while I'm about to go back to sleep ? 

I'm asking cause every time I try to wake up still it doesn't work, and I've only woken up still once and that time I almost went crazy and had to turn my physical body.

----------


## MasterMind

If you can't lay still in your bed without going crazy, that's the first thing you have to pracctise. Why do you feel uncomfortable upon awakening? Figure that out and use the deffered method only when you have time for it.
4 hours of sleep before an attempt works, but it's less hance to succed here than if you sleep 6 hours before attempt. Also note that you are not supposed to attempt to go to the phase after that awakening. You should go to sleep again and affirm that you will notice your natural awakening. It's the best way to get fast result.
Attempts to go to the phase should never be attempted with the use of an alarmclock. 
I will start to pracctise tonight too =)

Good luck!

----------


## Kunal19

Today i woke up after 6 hours sleep but couldnt sleep again...Lol
and i dont know why but i cant sleep straight 6 hours sleep...I mean somehow i wake up in between 6 hours about 2-3 times..
First i need to fix this problem....
Although i tried to have a nap in afternoon and suprisingly i noticed my awakening...
I felt that my hands were in another positing compare to the original position..
I wish i could have tried to separate but i tried to perform techniques...
And here comes another problem....I got stuck....
Stuck means for 5 seconds even wanting intentionally i couldnt perform techniques...It was like i was stopping myself....I was struggling to convince my mind that perform it now...
And finally when i performed...It felt like i missed it...
I have to overcome that stuck thing...It happens with in walking life too...Its like a bad habit...Lol

----------


## Lucidreaman

It's quite natural to wake up during a night and of course you can use these "during night awakenings" for practicing indirect techniques!!! You don't need to wait 6 hours before you try something.   :smiley:

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## MasterMind

I woke up and got to the bathroom and then back to bed and affirmed, yeah by now you know the drill... And this time I did notice my awakening! but it was strange because it felt like I didn't even fell asleep before I noticed that I was awake. I heard my mom go downstairs so I know that I had slept for an hour, because she usually gets up at 5 am and I woke up to my alarm 4 am. I felt like I was really aware of myself.
But anyway I now started to apply the indirect techniques, after an attempt to separate. Nothing happend... 
I remembered to keep doing cycles and when Ireached the fourth cycle and were really struggling to not fall asleep, I noticed that I heard a beeping noise, so I started to listening in, I don't really remember but I think I tried to separate in my bedroom here, but I teleported (start out the phase outside your bedroom) and suddenly find myself standing in a mall.
I sort of knew it was a dream, but my mind couldn't accept it, so I were both aware and unaware at the same time. But then my aware part decided to touch the ground and everything I saw and the dream was now perfectly clear. 
I tried to summon a person and I thought "around that corner I will meet my friend Johanna" and when I walked pass it I saw her! She had different clothes than usually, but her face and all looked the same. I talked to her and just admiring the vivid world and projections of people i know. Then she gazed at me for some seconds and kissed me! I were shocked, because I don't have feelings for her, but here I lost the lucidity... Then I dreamed that I was sitting on the backholder of a bike and playing guitar and it was a warm beautiful day o.O and I realised that this just doesn't work and it isn't summer where I live, far from it... I didn't become aware enough to realise it was a dream, but I were in the half awareness and half unaware state like before and I remember every non-lucid dream I had after this. I were really aware this morning! Today I will read some more of the SOBT to learn what to do to make the phase more stable.

----------


## Kunal19

> I woke up and got to the bathroom and then back to bed and affirmed, yeah by now you know the drill... And this time I did notice my awakening! but it was strange because it felt like I didn't even fell asleep before I noticed that I was awake. I heard my mom go downstairs so I know that I had slept for an hour, because she usually gets up at 5 am and I woke up to my alarm 4 am. I felt like I was really aware of myself.
> But anyway I now started to apply the indirect techniques, after an attempt to separate. Nothing happend... 
> I remembered to keep doing cycles and when Ireached the fourth cycle and were really struggling to not fall asleep, I noticed that I heard a beeping noise, so I started to listening in, I don't really remember but I think I tried to separate in my bedroom here, but I teleported (start out the phase outside your bedroom) and suddenly find myself standing in a mall.
> I sort of knew it was a dream, but my mind couldn't accept it, so I were both aware and unaware at the same time. But then my aware part decided to touch the ground and everything I saw and the dream was now perfectly clear. 
> I tried to summon a person and I thought "around that corner I will meet my friend Johanna" and when I walked pass it I saw her! She had different clothes than usually, but her face and all looked the same. I talked to her and just admiring the vivid world and projections of people i know. Then she gazed at me for some seconds and kissed me! I were shocked, because I don't have feelings for her, but here I lost the lucidity... Then I dreamed that I was sitting on the backholder of a bike and playing guitar and it was a warm beautiful day o.O and I realised that this just doesn't work and it isn't summer where I live, far from it... I didn't become aware enough to realise it was a dream, but I were in the half awareness and half unaware state like before and I remember every non-lucid dream I had after this. I were really aware this morning! Today I will read some more of the SOBT to learn what to do to make the phase more stable.



what did you affirm.......?

----------


## MasterMind

> what did you affirm.......?



Hehe I didn't wrote it again because I have almost written it in every post where I describe my attempts. But I go to sleep and an alarm wakes me up 6 hours later, then I got to the bathroom and then back to bed and try to fall asleep and affirming that I will am aware of my next awakening and I wake up with closed eyes and remember to use indirect techniques.

----------


## Lucidreaman

Great attempt, MM.   :smiley:

----------


## MasterMind

Even if this wasn't achieved with use of the SOBT method it still was used with methods described in the book like: Dream Cartography and deepening.

From my blog:

This was not a phase attempt it was just a spontanious dream consciousnes  :smiley: 
I just woke up and remembered 5 dreams and one of them were lucid. I am not going to write down the details of the dreams, because that takes too long time, but I am going to write down the places and draw thwm on a map.
My first dream was about my school, then I were playing Heroes of Newerth, then I were in some sort of mall. And then I were in my home and heard that there were strange noises downstairs.
I was home alone and I when I come down I saw two men with knives! I saw my mom through the window so I warned her to not come in. She looked confused at me and wondered what was bothering me. I realised that there were no men here anymore, they had just vanished.
I realised it was a dream and went outside. I immediately start to perform deepening.
I rubbed my hands and touched as much objects that I could and I even falled head first and noticed that the feel of gravity was a litte strange, I was almost floating. Then I walked out to the street while rubbing my hands together. I started to think this is were I usually wake up, I hope I don't do it again. And I woke up... I thought! I were now laying in bed and heard a women say
"Welcome to Darwin lucid dream induction, lay still and you will have a lucid dream" I have an app on my Iphone that I used before the SOBT method, so I thought that I accidently had started that even if the app doesn't even sounds like that at all. So I lay still and then gave up, and here I woke up for real... I have made deepening techniques a habit, but now I also have to learn to notice my FALSE awakenings.

----------


## Kunal19

i had around 5-6 continuous lucid deams last night......
but i want obes..........damn........in the last awakening probably i was close to obe but the same inertia or i can say resistence pulled me.....
i have a advise if u wanna have obe........dont try to imagine separation......do it just like you roll out physically......
i imagined and ended up in lucid dream every time......
but one thing was fun yesterday........when i felt vibrations i started imagening that i am jumping from one roof to other like spiderman........and guess what i entered in a lucid dream......
and pls someone help me regarding observing images......
every time the images disappear.........i know i have to watch them passively but i try my best still it disappears......
pls someone tell me how do you observe images.......?

----------


## MasterMind

> i had around 5-6 continuous lucid deams last night......
> but i want obes..........damn........in the last awakening probably i was close to obe but the same inertia or i can say resistence pulled me.....
> i have a advise if u wanna have obe........dont try to imagine separation......do it just like you roll out physically......
> i imagined and ended up in lucid dream every time......
> but one thing was fun yesterday........when i felt vibrations i started imagening that i am jumping from one roof to other like spiderman........and guess what i entered in a lucid dream......
> and pls someone help me regarding observing images......
> every time the images disappear.........i know i have to watch them passively but i try my best still it disappears......
> pls someone tell me how do you observe images.......?



First of all, I have never had an obe so I don't know what it's like, but I can only quote Michael Raduga. He say that obes, lucid dream, astral projection and so on it's all the same it's the phase, as he call it. But it only fells like different kinds of experiences, when it actually is the same. And one misstake that new pracctioners make is that they think that they are in the real world while in the obe not like a FA I mean they really think that they are in the real world in an astral body. 

So I guess he means that a obe is just a hyper realistic lucid dream where you are 10 times more aware than in a lucid dream. 
I have had a dream were I dreamed that I were in my house and I were really suprised over the realness of the dream and how a like the dream house was my real house. I can only imagine how an OBE feels like o.O

And for the observing images part...
Don't use techniques that doesn't seem to work. It's very individual.
I for instance stopped using phantom wiggling, because it never gave me any results.
But when I observe images I just look into the black space behind my eyelids for 2-5 seconds if I don't see anything I change technique, if I see something I know that I am on my way to the phase, so I just start to look through it, sort of like a panorama pciture. Then I am supposed to use a separation technique, but here I usually teleport...

----------


## Kunal19

@mastermind
Which techniques do you use or do you automatically enter in phase because of the deferred method...Without trying any techniques...?

----------


## MasterMind

> @mastermind
> Which techniques do you use or do you automatically enter in phase because of the deferred method...Without trying any techniques...?



Haha no, but I wish I could =) 

But almost, because everytime I do the deffered method and WHEN I notice my awakening I know that I will succed. All my failed attempts is either because I have not noticed my awakening or that I was too tired to get up when the alarm wakes me up 6 hours later because I cheated  my break on the  weekend (phase attempts is only supposed to be pracctised 3-4 days a week in the first 2-3 years).
But everytime I have noticed my awakening I have atleast got a lucid dream.
But as I have described many time before =) 
THIS IS MY ROUTINE (I just follow the book):

1. Go to sleep
2. Have an alarm that wakes you up 6 hours later
3. Get out of bed and engage in some sort of active for 5 minutes (I go to the bathroom and then go back to bed)
4. Fall asleep with a strong intention to notice your next awakening and affirm to wake up still and with closed eye (This is called a conscious awakening)
5. WHEN you notice your awakening try a separation technique and if that doesn't work start doing indirect techniques.

If you move upon awakening do forced falling asleep, if you wake up with open eyes, quickly close them and do indirect techniques!

6. Separation technique imagine and really try to feel yourself getting out of bed in some kind of way.

7. If no real sensations of you getting out of bed occurs do indirect techniques like
observing imaages, listening in, hand rubbing visualization, swimming technique and so on.

Here you have it The School of out of body travel in one post puh...

Heres the video where he describe it: Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)

Good luck everyone !

----------


## ObliviousOtter

Hey mcwillis, thanks for introducing me to Micheal's book! I've read the practical guide book and his personalized guide book until it started to talk about Direct techniques (didn't want to get distracted). I've been practicing and can now wake up without moving, but have one question! How do I "roll out" or "Get up" without using any muscles?? I've reread the chapters many times and the only way I can think of doing that is using imagination, but he strictly says _not to use imagination._ Another Question. How does one _strain the brain?_

----------


## mcwillis

> Hey mcwillis, thanks for introducing me to Micheal's book! I've read the practical guide book and his personalized guide book until it started to talk about Direct techniques (didn't want to get distracted). I've been practicing and can now wake up without moving, but have one question! How do I "roll out" or "Get up" without using any muscles?? I've reread the chapters many times and the only way I can think of doing that is using imagination, but he strictly says _not to use imagination._ Another Question. How does one _strain the brain?_



Basically I would say that you imagine *feeling the physical sensations* of moving your body.  One night I woke up and imained feeling the sensations of wiggling my leg and my dream/astral leg was moving freely with a range of about sixty centimetres.  

Awesome to see so many people getting good results with Mr. Raduga's methods  :smiley:

----------


## Kunal19

> Hey mcwillis, thanks for introducing me to Micheal's book! I've read the practical guide book and his personalized guide book until it started to talk about Direct techniques (didn't want to get distracted). I've been practicing and can now wake up without moving, but have one question! How do I "roll out" or "Get up" without using any muscles?? I've reread the chapters many times and the only way I can think of doing that is using imagination, but he strictly says _not to use imagination._ Another Question. How does one _strain the brain?_



do not imagine otw you will end up into a lucid dream

----------


## ObliviousOtter

hey mcwillis, I got an OBE last night using the method!! ::banana::  I did a mantra that i was going to wake up without moving and then after some weird dream I woke up and knew to stay still, and try to separate. I felt the tingles of SP. I tried to get up but only half my body came out. Then I went down and then tried to roll out and it worked!! But whats bothering me is that the OBE was really dark. My room was very dark and the only way I saw things were a slight illumination where my eyes looked. I even tried to use the light switch. ::lol::  but it obviously didn't work. Is there any way to turn it brighter next time?

----------


## MasterMind

> do not imagine otw you will end up into a lucid dream



Well Michael believe it's the same thing =)

----------


## mcwillis

> hey mcwillis, I got an OBE last night using the method!! I did a mantra that i was going to wake up without moving and then after some weird dream I woke up and knew to stay still, and try to separate. I felt the tingles of SP. I tried to get up but only half my body came out. Then I went down and then tried to roll out and it worked!! But whats bothering me is that the OBE was really dark. My room was very dark and the only way I saw things were a slight illumination where my eyes looked. I even tried to use the light switch. but it obviously didn't work. Is there any way to turn it brighter next time?



 :woohoo:   :woohoo:   :woohoo:  In the case of cureing 'blindness' you need to use the technique of palpation as described in the chapter on 'Deepening & Maintaining' to bring full sight.  I had this in a dream last night, it went completely dark and I was falling through the astral darkness and landed somewhere still completely pitch black.  I used palpation and a new dream scene appeared and I enjoyed my lucid dream  :smiley:

----------


## MasterMind

Hmm I need to ask you Mcwillis :/ 
I used to easily notice my awakenings and because of that easily get to the phase.
But this week I never noticed any of my awakenings and therefore never could pracctise...
I have created a strong intention and I am motivated because I know that it is easy, but the last two days NOTHING! =( 
What do you do to deal with this problem, not noticing conscious awakening I mean.
Thanks.

----------


## MasterMind

Ok I solved the "problem"
All I had to do was to follow the INSTRUCTIONS... 
If I fail one day it's ok because it maybe work the next day, but instead I lost my motivation on the first try and the second day I couldn't even get out of bed.
But this night I did get out of bed and I noticed my awakening and got a lucid dream, which I stabilized so it become an OBE! Wohoo!
I am not going to continue to write in this thread,, unless something crazy happens, because it feels like I spam ...
But if anyone has any question you can pm me or just READ THE BOOK! xD

----------


## whitemagician91

I completely agree. This book is awesome and it's free. Definitely better than most of the books sold outthere about LD.

----------


## woah

Just found this thread. I can't believe this book is free. Precise step by step instructions is exactly what I need and have been looking for..

thanks a lot

----------


## Purebred

> Just found this thread. I can't believe this book is free. Precise step by step instructions is exactly what I need and have been looking for..
> 
> thanks a lot



And it works 100%.

----------


## Sarge_Maximus2

> In the case of cureing 'blindness' you need to use the technique of palpation as described in the chapter on 'Deepening & Maintaining' to bring full sight.  I had this in a dream last night, it went completely dark and I was falling through the astral darkness and landed somewhere still completely pitch black.  I used palpation and a new dream scene appeared and I enjoyed my lucid dream



 What's palpatation? I havn't been following this book, but recently I've been having my dreams still continuing once I'm awake. I can create the dream and what I want in the scene, but it's vague and I'm not actually inside it, more like watching a movie. How to I connect and get inside the dream?

----------


## Lucidreaman

Using your hands and touching anything around you - the ground, walls, yourself, other dream characters, .. Anything

----------


## MasterMind

> What's palpatation? I havn't been following this book, but recently I've been having my dreams still continuing once I'm awake. I can create the dream and what I want in the scene, but it's vague and I'm not actually inside it, more like watching a movie. How to I connect and get inside the dream?




My first lucid dreams also felt like movies, but if you stabilize with palpation for example where you touch everything that you see and by using your senses to connect with the dream and make it become more vivid.

What I have found to work best is:
Rubbing your hands and feel the warmth and listen to the sound of friction  :smiley:  
And scream "I am dreaming!"

----------


## Purebred

I am thinking about creating a lot more informative thread about Michael Raduga and his book, since I am having such a huge success. I wonder if that would be okay...?

----------


## Sarge_Maximus2

> My first lucid dreams also felt like movies, but if you stabilize with palpation for example where you touch everything that you see and by using your senses to connect with the dream and make it become more vivid.
> 
> What I have found to work best is:
> Rubbing your hands and feel the warmth and listen to the sound of friction  
> And scream "I am dreaming!"



Ok but, I'm like half asleep, half awake. I can open my eyes and see my room and then if I want to, get up, or I can keep seeing the dreams that continue in my head. Does this make a difference? If so, what do you suggest?

----------


## Purebred

> Ok but, I'm like half asleep, half awake. I can open my eyes and see my room and then if I want to, get up, or I can keep seeing the dreams that continue in my head. Does this make a difference? If so, what do you suggest?



Use seperation techniques described in Michael's book Chapter 2.

----------


## woah

damn I am having a very hard time completing the 1st step of waking up consciously without moving

----------


## Sarge_Maximus2

> Use seperation techniques described in Michael's book Chapter 2.



Thanks, I'll try that. I tried rubbing my hands together this morning when it happened (my dream hands that is) and I could feel it slightly, as if it were far away, but nothing ever manifested itself and I gave up after a while. It's a shame really because all the DC's were waiting for me to finish before the dream continued  :tongue2:

----------


## MikeMk

> damn I am having a very hard time completing the 1st step of waking up consciously without moving



Dude, read carefully the instruction. Of course, it's better do not move, but it doesn't matter

----------


## Sarge_Maximus2

Ok, so I didn't read that chapter (had no time before bed, but I will tonight) but anyhow, what I did do was implement an idea of mine which is that if I have nothing on my mind, I might be more aware. Usually I go to sleep with a mental-note to do things in the morning and such, but last night I wrote it all down on a paper beside my bed so that I wouldn't have to remember anything, and my mind would be free to be clear. So, the result was an incredibly long (like a whole day) and vivid, minute-for-minute dream! It was so clear and real, that when I woke up I could only gasp in awe. I think this might be the first step as I've noticed in my previous LD successes that the more dedicated to LDing the better my chances become.

----------


## Purebred

So, I don't know if mcwillis will read this or not, but I want to ask for permition to create another thread about this book? I would explain all the main techniques and concepts of the book. I would put this thread's link in the very beginning of my post of course, because it is very helpful.

----------


## Lucidreaman

Don't you think there will be too much threads about the same topic? There are already couple of them.
I guess people should read the book by themselves.

----------


## rynkrt3

> So, I don't know if mcwillis will read this or not, but I want to ask for permition to create another thread about this book? I would explain all the main techniques and concepts of the book. I would put this thread's link in the very beginning of my post of course, because it is very helpful.



This is not mcwillis book.  I say make the thread, it will help many people  ::D:

----------


## Purebred

> Don't you think there will be too much threads about the same topic? There are already couple of them.
> I guess people should read the book by themselves.



People don't read books, because they are bored. Common sense. And there are no threads except this one about Michael Raduga. Maybe I don't know about them?





> This is not mcwillis book. I say make the thread, it will help many people



yes, I think so too.

----------


## Lucidreaman

Well, I said couple but it is exactly one couple only   :smiley: 
This one and this one
So, it should not be a problem if there is another one, but still, I do think that people should read it by themselves - otherwise - are they really interested in this thing?  ::roll::

----------


## Purebred

Humans are lazy being. they think that they can achieve what they want, without doing anything. I will help them  ::D:

----------


## Connor23

I've started reading this book and all it talks about is OBE's so how would one translate these techniques into lucid dreaming?

----------


## Purebred

OBE and LD are one and the same.

----------


## glucose

Cheers for the post Mcwillis! It was a great read (well, not entertaining, but extremely informative). I love the pragmatic, scientific approach it takes. 

I've read all except the direct techniques, which I will definitely come back to after I get some decent success with the indirect ones. At the moment I'm having difficulty waking up without moving, though I'm sure that'll happen with time. When practising DEILDs in the past, I've had a little luck waking without movement, though I had trouble transitioning when I did so, so I'm glad I now have strict guidelines to follow!

Thanks again, I'll hopefully post my success stories soon enough

----------


## whiterain

couple of days ago i got into a good lucid and tried to do this from there. i stabilised it then tried to switch part of my attention back to my real body. i was careful and kept on restabilisng it so it felt like i could try waking up then going straight back into it to practice a wild. i managed this about four times by just visualising myself leaping of my roof and falling slightly then catching myself and flying when you get that falling feeling in the stomach. i think i was lying on my front for this, which seemed to make it alot easier to picture the motion of flying, but im not sure if i was aware of my real body or just another dream body. 

later on though i realised that i was probably really just transporting myself right into a completely different place in the dream, from a normal lucid. or into a different dream from mini false awakenings.. doh. its so tricky because you dont want to stay awake for too long before you go back or you will lose it, but its hard to get a good reality check in in that gap. still its good progress in flying, teleporting into different part just through will and getting back to my house in my dreams to. i flew around in circles and just kept coming back to my body then going away again. 

while i was doing each lap, i was completely changing the scenery back to a forest i was in earlier. never flown through the woods but it must have something to do with watching a programme on goshawks the other day. look for goshawk vids because theyre pretty amazing to watch weaing in and out. it was so much like having multiple obe's but its crazy how the mind can play tricks on you. was i awake? what is awake? cheers for all the help everyone, its going pretty well now. good luck all

----------


## Fedor

I would try but am scared of the hallucinations.  I can't stand sp as it is.

----------


## Sarge_Maximus2

I've read the chapter 2 and such, but now I don't wake up with dreams going off in my head. >< It seems as though the more I focus on trying to LD, the more my mind doesn't let me. I really don't know how to bypass all the mind games.

----------


## Sabre2552

Interesting. I have to say, this looks promising and should go hand in hand with ADA nicely to make a two-pronged approach to lucidity. ADA for DILD, and this for WILD. I skimmed through the book last night and plan to go back to read and interpret specifics, but overall I'm interested.

This past night I realized I woke up after a dream and stayed perfectly still, and then after attempting some of the indirect techniques I tried to separate by rolling over, and it worked! I didn't follow the book's advised procedure exactly (I only skimmed!), but at least it seems to work, so I'll be sure to check it in depth today.

----------


## whiterain

had some more good progress the other morning. got up for about an hour then went back to bed. this time i kept it extremely simple but it resulted in the most conscious wild so far. i just relaxed my body bit by bit and tried to keep my mind awake by focussing on hearing each individual car that went past in the distance. in previous attempts i have only become lucid after the dream has started, so there is always a gap but this was different. i was suddenly aware that i was in a dream after a tiny lapse in consciousness. however this time the dream had not started yet and the gap was so small that i was still lying on my bed. 

i could tell the room was slightly different so had no need to rc. i remembered that all i had to do in this state was get up. as i did i became partially aware of my real body at the same time, and felt a little tingling as i was seperating. this may have caused problems in the past but i kept focus and just stood up on my bed. i didnt bother to llok for my real body because i didnt really expect to see anything. although its the closest to an obe ive had, it still just felt dreamlike so there didnt seem any point in testing anything out. it didnt last long, but was just so easy to pull off (apart from the years of practice of course). when it comes down to it, it really is just as simple as consciously relaxing your body and letting your mind do its own thing. so this couls still just have been dreaming about having an obe, but i think it was pretty much my first time going through what i think people describe as the phase? must just remember to do longer wbtbs and also to get as damn comfy as i was that morning. 

since then there always seems to be something in my body which takes my attention, but that morning i was just so relaxed i could bring on the buzz so easily. its very odd though because ive been trying to do this for ages, and it was amazing and will get better with time, but for some reason im still an ungrateful sod... how come i am bringing such magic experiences into my life yet still cant really get excited about anything? perhaps its the whole not being able to share it with anyone aspect of it?

----------


## whiterain

> I would try but am scared of the hallucinations.  I can't stand sp as it is.



i was 100% the same as you at first mate but its true how much easier it gets with time. the first tries i had were full of paranoia and fear but my last attempt was just like being tickled gently then standing up. i cant quite believe how much easier it gets, but it seems like the fear factor truely is just fear of the unknown. when it becomes more known to you, the fear just dissapears

----------


## Shadow27

I watched the videos and downloaded the e-book. I really don't have much time these
days to read but I will hopefully get around to it. For now, I will attempt what I learned
from the videos on his site. If this works it could be quite interesting, and a lot easier
than lying in bed for 2 hours.

----------


## whiterain

> I watched the videos and downloaded the e-book. I really don't have much time these
> days to read but I will hopefully get around to it. For now, I will attempt what I learned
> from the videos on his site. If this works it could be quite interesting, and a lot easier
> than lying in bed for 2 hours.



yeah i really think people must waste so much time by trying to lie still for ages. the last attempt only took a few minutes, and if it doesnt work quickly then it probably wont work until you next wake up. this guys methods seem to be the most efficient for me at least

----------


## moongrass

I was kinda scared or more just anxious when I first started but If you just relax and let it naturally happen there is really nothing to be afraid of. It is actually very enjoyable of an experience.

----------


## Shadow27

Can someone explain this forced back to sleep thing to me? I'm not quite sure how to do it.

----------


## MasterMind

> Can someone explain this forced back to sleep thing to me? I'm not quite sure how to do it.



Instead of focusing on you are going to get a lucid dream, you pretend that you are on that moment going to sleep.
So you close your eyes and think of nothing and try to go asleep, but you have in the back in your head still a memory of prevent yourself from falling asleep.
So like this: Try to go asleep, STOP yourself before you do. The hard thing is to stop yourself, but if you manage to do that, the images, sounds and so on comes easier and faster.

----------


## Shadow27

Oh I've done that before during wild attempts. I've found it quite effective.
Not quickly to sleep but I've drifted off to just on the edge then jumped back
to consciousness.

----------


## MasterMind

> Oh I've done that before during wild attempts. I've found it quite effective.
> Not quickly to sleep but I've drifted off to just on the edge then jumped back
> to consciousness.



Nice that's how it's done  :smiley:

----------


## Shadow27

Awesome  ::D:

----------


## mcwillis

> I've started reading this book and all it talks about is OBE's so how would one translate these techniques into lucid dreaming?



He does talk about lucid dreaming right from the start, as well as OBE's.  My first use of his techniques resulted in me having a lucid dream from waking consciousness, i.e. a W.I.L.D.

----------


## Bobblehat

I've been trying this for four nights now without success.(The indirect method) I am constantly scrutinising my efforts and improving my approach. There are some very innovative ideas in the book, but Mr Radiga could do well to explain some of the ideas in more depth. Forced back to sleep, for example. The explanation of that is rushed and leaves one in doubt as to what it is, and how to do it.

I was interested to read that, in 20 percent of awakenings at night, we are not actually awake at all but dreaming (the book says that people often look round their bedroom and see the room without realising their eyes are actually shut!) I was thinking that this could be an induction method itself (for people who are lazy) - every time you wake up, do a nose pinch as soon as you can.

----------


## Walkingbox

What's the difference between OBE and lucid dreams?

----------


## Bobblehat

I believe that OBEs are just a specific type of lucid dream, thought some believe they are a different state.

----------


## Walkingbox

I have a little trouble reading the book, his word of choice are too sophisticated for me to comprehend most of it, but I sort of get the idea. When you attempt the indirect technique, is it like a WBTB or is it anytime when you awoken from a sleep?
Also, the "Phantom wiggling", you're supposed to try to move your body parts without physically moving it right?

----------


## Bobblehat

Ideally you do it after WBTB, but after a while when you have a experience you can switch to using it every awakening. With phantom wiggling you're supposed to try to move any body part without using muscles. You are supposed to start slowly and amplify the movement and then use the movement of that dream body to leave your real body.

I did my fifth night of attempts last night - three attempts within the night - and didn't achieve lucidity. There is still some fine tuning for me to do - I've now conditioned myself to wake up without moving but I still need to condition myself to start applying the techniques as soon as I wake up.

----------


## Walkingbox

> Ideally you do it after WBTB, but after a while when you have a experience you can switch to using it every awakening. With phantom wiggling you're supposed to try to move any body part without using muscles. You are supposed to start slowly and amplify the movement and then use the movement of that dream body to leave your real body.
> 
> I did my fifth night of attempts last night - three attempts within the night - and didn't achieve lucidity. There is still some fine tuning for me to do - I've now conditioned myself to wake up without moving but I still need to condition myself to start applying the techniques as soon as I wake up.



Youre kind of rephrasing what he said. When you wiggle part of your body without using muscles it's trying to move it in your mind right? Not physically move it?

----------


## Bobblehat

Yes, I think that it is, but as I haven't had success yet I probably can't offer much guidance. Mcwillis has had success with the technique and started this thread so maybe you should ask him.

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## Bobblehat

I've been trying this technique for seven days now and I'm nowhere near achieving lucidity with it. The two problems I'm having are:

1) I can't wake up without moving. By the time I'm aware I'm awake I've already moved.
2) By the time I'm awake enough to remember to apply Mr Raduga's techniques it's already too late.

Maybe I don't have an aptitude for this technique, but I'm seriously questioning how Mr Raduga arrives at his statistics. He claims that in the first five attempts the success rate is 50 percent, in the first 11-20 attempts the success rate is 90 percent. Does he mean that 90 percent of people who walk through the door for his courses achieve an LD? Or does he mean that 90 percent of people *achieve an LD when they apply his techniques to the letter?* Or, it could even mean that only one person has achieved lucidity in the group but is so prolifically achieving lucidity that it makes one learning group's statistics look more impressive than they really are? People have gone on his forum and said they are having difficulties and not achieving lucidity but Mr Raduga's usual response is to tell them they are not applying the techniques correctly (something I've put 100 percent effort into doing and it's very difficult. I'm beginning to doubt another of his claims that the average time for achieving lucidity with this is 1 to 3 days).

I, myself, could start up a "lucid dreaming school" and claim the success rate is an amazing 90 percent. But that would only be  _when you apply the techniques to the letter._ But when you get to the course you find out that the technique is basically: *You've got to ask yourself if you're dreaming when you're dreaming and do a nose pinch.* And that would be where my 90 percent success rate came from - from the people who managed to follow that (very difficult) instruction to the letter. If anyone came on the course and complained that it was difficult to ask themselves if they were dreaming in a dream, then I could retort that they "aren't doing the technique properly" and  exclude them from my statistics and base my final statistics on the people who managed to ask if they were dreaming.

Mr Raduga seems a good guy, and I'm a fair person and realise I can't fairly reach a conclusion about his results unless there are a number of people doing the same experiment as me, but I suspect Mr Raduga is "creatively interpreting" his statistics to make it look like the success rate with the techniques are better than they really are. I would like to see 50 people be taught the techniques and see how many of them, at the end of a month, have achieved lucidity with the technique and just how many lucid dreams each person has had.

EDIT: Another problem I forgot to mention is that there's not always an exact dividing line between being awake/being asleep (for anyone that doesn't know, you're supposed to apply the techiques the very moment you wake up). Mr Raduga doesn't mention this anywhere in his literature. In the early morning when I'm slumbering am I supposed to "interrupt" my slumber and do the techniques then, or wait until I'm "properly awake" (whatever that means) and do the techniques then? I have not seen Mr Raduga address this issue in his literature or videos and I cannot be the only one who has problems interpreting what specifically I'm supposed to do about the slumbering/awake problem. It's an obvious problem; his lack of attention to the issue makes me wonder if he has genuinely worked with people to help them overcome personal obstacles and achieve lucidity on a long term basis or whether he just generates attractive-looking statistics to make people go on his courses.

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## Shadow27

a few days ago I managed to hit the vibrational state and rolled myself
over without muscle movement. Then I opened my eyes to see if I was
actually on my stomach but I wasn't. I was on my back. I thought I failed
then got up and had a non-lucid. Now I know for next time though!

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## Bobblehat

I had four LDs last night. I think these techniques were a factor in two of them (both FAs). The other two were DILDs. Will continue to experiment and report back with successes.

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## Drax

My question is, are the WILD's produced through this method exactly the same as a traditional WILD? By that I mean is the realism and stability as powerful as it is normally?

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## NightSpy2

Do you HAVE to wake up naturally for this?!?!
If you do, how can you train yourself to do it?  :Sad:

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## Choi

Hey! I am going to try this along with my timer method, because the indirect techniques seems to be alot like a movement free reality check.
To understand what I mean think of this: If you go to bed right now and look for images, listen for sounds and so on, there will be none because you are in a physical focus.
But if you notice an awakening, and lay still with closed eyes and try to look for images, listen for sounds etc, and if you get ANY of these sensations, then you are in a non-physical focus and are very close to a lucid dream. And if you keep focusing on one of these sensations, you are amplifying it and starting to become more non-physical than physical, when you feel the sensations are really vivid, you are in the dream and can separate. And if no sensations occur fall right back to sleep and use another awakening. I hope this will work, in any case it's a perfect reality check.

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## whiterain

> Do you HAVE to wake up naturally for this?!?!
> If you do, how can you train yourself to do it?



no but it will help and be far more likely on the occasions when you wake up naturally straight after a dream because you will still be close to rem mode. an alarm can shock you out of that, but a gentle alarm can be used to wake you slowly, as long as you dont have to move alot to turn it off.

i sleep with the curtains open so that the light wakes me up naturally, but really you just have to practice your intent to do it for yourself.

perhaps record a custom alarm of you telling yourself to wake up naturally. then when you get used to this you can stop using the alarm and hope that your instructions have become habit..?

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## Ctharlhie

Read a few pages so far. This looks like a fantastic resource and I look forward to delving further into it. Thanks for posting, McWillis  ::D:

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## Bobblehat

There is also a YouTube video that helps to give a nice overview of the techniques. 

Out-of-Body Experience in 1-2 Days! - YouTube

(Originally posted by McWillis in another thread.)

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## Ctharlhie

When it talks about 'training' indirect methods, should training be done at any time or upon awakening without moving/opening eyes?

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## Drax

> When it talks about 'training' indirect methods, should training be done at any time or upon awakening without moving/opening eyes?



As in the video he says indirect methods require initial sleep, he suggests the average WBTB of 5 hours, essentially once you perform WBTB with an alarm clock you stay awake for 5 minutes you then use autosuggestion to wake up in the next 2-3 hours, so without an alarm this time go back to sleep and attempt to wake up in 2-3 hours. Also when you're telling yourself don't use repetition its important to have confidence, affirm yourself but don't for instance make a mantra such as "I will wake up in 2 hours and remain still" you could but that would kind of defeat the purpose of this technique because you might not fall asleep.

This method is a form of DEILD (Dream-Exit Initiated Lucid Dream) where you wake-up at the end of a dream and remain still, so remember during your autosuggestion to infer the need to remain still, doing both suggestions can be the most difficult part of this method, which is why I suggest the CANWILD method in this section which uses a 5 second alarm to wake you up, this eliminates the need to depend on yourself to wake up naturally in the 2-3 gap,otherwise  it works better if you focus on having a normal lucid dream (DILD) during that 2 hour sleep period after your WBTB, because if you can have a lucid in that period then once it begins to fades you then have a large period of time to remember to stay still, which is cool as you essentially use a lucid dream to enter your DEILD/WILD. Which is where the whole dream-chaining thing comes into play, where you literally repeatedly enter a DEILD and as the dream fades tell yourself to remain still and continually go into more DEILD's  ::D: .

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## Ctharlhie

Thanks for the info, Draxquin  :smiley: , I was just confused because the book itself is ambiguous, to train it says 'lie down and close your eyes' which isn't the same as 'wake up and don't move etc.'  I was familiar with the overall technique as a DEILD

Without meaning to I woke up into sleep paralysis last night and DEILDed, I think it was because of reading the book  ::D:

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## NightSpy2

A few days after reading the indirect techniques, I had a chain of 4 DEILD's.. It was pretty awesome.
I've also used the Roll-Out technique to get me lucid, but only once.

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## Bobblehat

Would be interested to see some independent statistics on how effective these techniques are, both in the short term and the long term. After 16 days of concentration on these techniques I've yet to experience a lucid dream I could confirm as being a result of the application of the techniques. Starting to get sceptical, if I'm honest. I'm off work so have been able to concentrate on memorising the techniques so that I can perform them habitually on waking. Have followed Mr Raduga's instructions in his guidebook verbatim. But nothing. Will remain open minded for now and will take a break for a few days. Will then return to trying the techniques then, if no results after a few days, will switch to MILD again and relying on the soul destroying lucky dip that is DILD. Would be interested in setting up an experiment to get people to try the techniques and produce our own stats as to how effective they are.

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## Bobblehat

> A few days after reading the indirect techniques, I had a chain of 4 DEILD's.. It was pretty awesome.
> I've also used the Roll-Out technique to get me lucid, but only once.



That's fab, but I'm not sure that the Raduga techniques should get any credit for that. DEILDing - or dream chaining - has been around for quite a long time, and rolling out of the body is discussed in ETWOLD (a 1990 book). The only thing new Mr Raduga brought to the table was the cycling of techniques, and when I have managed to apply those techniques (and it is extremely difficult to both stay still on waking _and_ remember to apply the techniques) I haven't experienced a single thing that could be construed as either a step towards lucidity or a positive sign that the techniques are close to working and I should stick with them.

As I have said, it would be unreasonable to judge the techniques on my experiences alone, which is why I'd like to see a proper experiment conducted as to the effectiveness of the techniques.

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## Lucidreaman

To Ctharlhie:
Your first thought about a training was right - Raduga really suggests to train the techniques WHILE BEING AWAKE.
DraxQuin is talking about actual practicing the indirect techniques in the night or early morning, so don't be confused.

.................................
Keep your dreams alive

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## Marm

It normally takes me around 3-5mins to become lucid (because I fall asleep very quickly) but never as quickly as 15 seconds. I'm rather sceptical about the effectiveness of this technique as a whole because if you examine what actually goes on in the someone's brain between the transition from consciousness to sleep state, their EEG values reduce very significantly. I'm just doubtful as to whether humans can will themselves to reach lucidity in the manner described.

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## Ctharlhie

Once again I'm hypnotised by your avatar...

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## Drax

Yeah sorry the training thing is while you're awake.

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## Kenneth

You must consult with the professional persons to get the appropriate information and solution of your problems. Because any fake information can also thrown you in deep problem.

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## Bobblehat

I've known of this method for a month now. In September I'm going to log my efforts properly so that I've got stats at the end of the month to help give folk an idea of the effectiveness of the technique. I'm looking forward to improving my ability to wake up without moving (will help for recall) but my attempts will have a mixture of positivity and negativity- I managed to apply the techniques on several occasions in August and they didn't make me lucid once.

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## Bobblehat

Getting some good results now. 2 normal DILDs in September and 2 LDs caused by application of the Raduga techniques.

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## fgopl

_Wait. I have no clue what the lucid F--K this is!
Is this a tutorial or just some retarded ad?_

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## Bobblehat

> Wait. I have no clue what the lucid F--K this is!
> Is this a tutorial or just some retarded ad?



The good news is, you can pursue this as far as you like without ever having to put your hand in your pocket! You can get a feel for the Raduga techniques by searching "Michael Raduga" on YouTube and there are a few of his videos on there. In addition to induction techniques, there is also some useful advice on stabilising and maintaining LDs.

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## fgopl

_oh. ok. it had sounded like an advertisment. sorry._

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## Bobblehat

No, I'm just being open and honest about my results. If the techniques fail miserably or a roaring success I'll be sure to let you know either way!

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## fgopl

_i looked up raduga and all i saw was astral projection._

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## Bobblehat

No, it isn't astral projection. Michael Raduga doesn't believe in astral projection as a separate phenomenon. Essentially, Mr Raduga believes that OBEs, astral projection, near death experiences and even alien abductions are all the same thing - lucid dreams, but he calls them "The phase".

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## Bobblehat

So, I applied these techniques throughout September. I tried them on each Wednesday night, Friday night, Saturday and Sunday. The other nights I just went to bed normally with no intention to LD or attempt to LD. I couldn't follow the schedule as religiously as I would've hoped, because I caught a weird stomach bug and trying to get through the day and night without shitting my pants became a priority for a bit. Anyhow, here's the results:

"Accidental" DILDS (Where I realised I was dreaming in a dream): 2
LDs where I woke up and "left my body": 2
LDs where I woke up and failed at "leaving the body" then used the cycle of techniques: 0

So, 4 LDs. Reasonably pleased with that. It is worth noting that a new guidebook by Michael Raduga is due out very soon. I'll be a good student and read and memorise that, then let you know if I do any experiments.

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## mcwillis

> It is worth noting that a new guidebook by Michael Raduga is due out very soon. I'll be a good student and read and memorise that, then let you know if I do any experiments.



Its out now and a good edition:

New Book

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## Bobblehat

> Its out now and a good edition:
> 
> New Book



I've very interested in the "forced falling asleep" approach. That approach is fairly new to me and I'm looking forward to trying that when time is being a bit kinder.

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## Ctharlhie

> Its out now and a good edition:
> 
> New Book



I have to say that this is a much more concise and easily understood guide than the previous e-book, I'm impressed  :smiley:  This may be useful.

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## whiterain

> I've very interested in the "forced falling asleep" approach. That approach is fairly new to me and I'm looking forward to trying that when time is being a bit kinder.



ahh cheers for the reminder that was a quite useful method last time i tried it

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## ljhak

Thank you for introduce such book for LD.
I'm not good at WILDing for a long time so this would be good help for me.

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## n00bf0rlyf3

This works I was attempting to WILD and fell asleep and woke up not knowing it and heard loud tinnitus and a wa woosh noise and then bam, had an obe for like 5 seconds, my first one.

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## sean95

So from another perspective (outside of the school of out-of-body travel context), would this technique be considered an OBE or, instead, a sort of DEILD variation? I'm a bit confused.  :tongue2:

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## mcwillis

> So from another perspective (outside of the school of out-of-body travel context), would this technique be considered an OBE or, instead, a sort of DEILD variation? I'm a bit confused.



If you perform the instructions for indirect techniques you may have a regular WILD, or you may be able to leave your body.  You can use indirect techniques after exiting a dream but that isn't necessary as you can succeed after having say only one minute of sleep.  The important thing is performing indirect techniques immediately upon waking from sleep.

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## Elaol

I was wondering would this method would work if I wake up an 30-60 min (about 8-8:30)before my usual wake time? Because I usually need to get up at 6:30 (I need to get ready for school), so weekends are my only option for lucid dreaming. And I don't want to wake up at 6 o'clock because on weekend I get a chance to actually sleep without annoying alarm at 6 o'clock.

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## mcwillis

> I was wondering would this method would work if I wake up an 30-60 min (about 8-8:30)before my usual wake time? Because I usually need to get up at 6:30 (I need to get ready for school), so weekends are my only option for lucid dreaming. And I don't want to wake up at 6 o'clock because on weekend I get a chance to actually sleep without annoying alarm at 6 o'clock.



You may have to go to bed a lot earlier school nights.  As an example, go to bed at 9pm.  Wake up at 3am.  Stay awake for 3 to 45 before falling asleep again.  Use the next two to three hours to catch the times when you awaken naturally to practice indirect techniques before getting up properly at 6.30am.

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## mcwillis

> I have to say that this is a much more concise and easily understood guide than the previous e-book, I'm impressed  This may be useful.



Yes, the new edition is impressive.  More research and seminar results has resulted in a much more informative new edition of the book.

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## mcwillis

> When it talks about 'training' indirect methods, should training be done at any time or upon awakening without moving/opening eyes?



No, the maual says to train any time apart from before going to sleep at night.  To begin with I trained in the early evening as this was the best time for me.  The point of training is to firstly aquaint yourself with the dynamics of the indirect techniques and secondly to become used to doing them so that you remember exactly what to do when you use them in the morning with WBTB.

I also have noticed that you are a fan of the Cthulu Mythos (-:

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## Ctharlhie

> No, the maual says to train any time apart from before going to sleep at night.  To begin with I trained in the early evening as this was the best time for me.  The point of training is to firstly aquaint yourself with the dynamics of the indirect techniques and secondly to become used to doing them so that you remember exactly what to do when you use them in the morning with WBTB.
> 
> I also have noticed that you are a fan of the Cthulu Mythos (-:



Thanks for the info!  :smiley: 
And indeed I am... though I'm not sure I would like to dream about it  ::lol::

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## VagalTone

> I woke up and immediately applied "Phantom Wiggling" on my left arm for five seconds and my dream-arm was moving freely.  I could at this point have had an OBE but *I wanted a lucid dream*. 
> 
> Enjoy...



Hi, im new to LD so apologize me. 

can you explain me how do you decide to have a lucid dream instead of OBE?

i am reading Raduga book and he just speaks of phase. is ld and obe the same ? if not how can you choose? ( by not trying to separate from your body, as you sugested ? )



thank you

i appreciate your help

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## MasterMind

What you choose to accept depends on what you believe, what you actually know depends on your experience.

What I choose to believe and what I write here shouldn't be seen as factual information, but merely as me sharing inspiration.  :smiley: 

And I tell you to experience what you define as a dream and explore it, if you intend for that experience to provide you with more, it will be so.

Michael Raduga's words was once my truth (That an aspect our physical reality (our brain) creates the dream world), but then my own experiences started to show me another side of my experiences. That our dream world is created and simulated to us in the exact same way as the dreamworld and that the only difference is the rules and information provided by each reality.

And with repetition this truth is no longer only a belief, it is also my knowledge and my own personal science.

Playing the guitar, drums or a flute can exist as separate physical things with different rules and systems attached to them, and still be the same thing, both the instrument themselves but also the sound they produce, and that is vibration. The instrument appear solid, but they are actually just a massive energy in a very high speed vibration and the sound the instruments produce is also just vibrations called soundwaves, but for our consciousness it is interpreted information.

It is no difference for our dreams, astral projection or what ever, because it is just an focus in another energy vibration of consciousness (depending on what rules there are attached to each term.) Astral projection is often considered as a high frequency. But this frequency are in turn producing an experience, interpreted by our consciousness as information.

So for me lucid dreaming, Astral projection, out of body experiences, remote viewing and even this physical world we call reality, is all the same because they share one thing, it is all experienced by our consciousness and directed by our intent. 

But if everything is energy, then our brain works just like a program of 1:s and 0:s in a computer, it's a representation of energy.
And if our brain is energy, then our physical world is also simulated, just like a dream and then why would a dream be less real?

I don't want to brag, but this is not only my little theory.  :smiley:  Not even mine at all, Einsten's E=MC^2 means 
Energy = Everything and Everything = Energy. 
And as physicists try to understand this, they have now found that when we put awareness on something, it is particles, but when we look away and are not putting awareness on it is a wave! (Check out the Double Slit Experiment).

The world's may exist in different frequencies like a radio (And this is the easiest way for me to understand dimensions.), but even though I have tried to make a fun little theory, all that doesn't matter because however or wherever the experience takes place, it's all about what kind of information you can attain, what lesson you can learn and how you can grow from each experience that matters.

But to answer your question, everything you do is navigated by your intent and your thoughts. Especially in what we call the dream world because that is an direct experience of yourself, your ego (subconscious, memories and emotions.) So what you think, consciously or unconsciously WILL not become, but already BE!

So if you want an OBE (However you might define it.) you have to intend for it to be your experience, or if you want a lucid dream, adventures and tools for the ego, then you should intend that. State it out loud while in the experience, or do it as you induce your experience, or both of course. 

Here is just a video about dimensions to make this post a little more understandable: Spirit Science 7 ~ Dimensions - YouTube

I hope your question got answered. But if not, just ask again.  :wink2: 

Radugas book can be very helpful, but remember that it is your experience that determines your knowledge.  ::meditate::

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## MarineRecon

I had an almost instant WILD a week ago by doing something similar to this. I didn't realize I was doing it : It was all natural instink. Thanks for sharing this book. I read it awhile ago, but I forgot the name of the author! XD

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## Drax

It depends on who you ask and how they view the concept of dreaming.

Some will say dreaming occurs on another plane of existence others say it's simply inside the brain. But that old argument goes way back to the basic idea of the afterlife and consciousness being interdependent from the body.

In my honest opinion and from barebones research (really all thats currently available) it is suggestable that a OBE is simply a different form of transition into the dream state. Most OBE'rs don't transition into the dream like normal WILD dreamers, most likein Raduga book will use some form of phantom wiggling or imagined movement, whereas note most WILD'ers will use things like Mnemonic or Visualization. 

I believe that this difference in technique stimulates different areas of the brain, of course it would have to use different areas. Visualization comes from different areas of the brain then say Proprioception (the sensation of the body moving) this much is obvious. But when it comes to dreaming we also know that Lucid Dreamers have greater activity in areas of their brain that Non-LDers do, which would be as expected. Most research cites increase beta wave activity in the frontal lobe, among other places that see to corrospond to areas previously believed to be responsible for consciousness.

We know it's possible for the visual part of a dream to form without a dreamer, I suggest the reverse is true aswell, in that it's possible for the dreamer to decouple from reality but to have no visual. Note again that the former tends to occur with visualization techniques and the latter with phantom wiggling. Such an event would likely cause the brain to compensated by drawing reality as it would immediately assume it is still awake.

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