# Lucid Dreaming > Dream Control >  >  Would learning to control dreams help you control psychadelic trips?

## Idolfan

Discuss...

All apologies if this has been discussed before, which it most probably has. I'll eat a bar of soap if it turns out to be me who brought it up.

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## CanceledCzech

This is actually the sole reason I decided to get into lucid dreaming. A brief history: I heard about it in '06, never really tried it seriously ("oh I'll do it later"). Then in May this year I started watching a ton of Terence Mckenna videos. I decided I wanted to take shrooms again, started reading shrooms literature again... and then arrived at, literally, story after story of bad trips. This only made me remember my last trip - I blacked out, essentially not existing for 5 hours while occasionally 'phasing' into an incredibly hazy (and terrified) dream-like consciousness. I read these stories and the horror of that night began creeping under my skin.

So I decided I would get into lucid dreaming to aclimate myself to 'weird shit' so that the next time I took shrooms I wouldn't freak out when reality melted away and my consciousenss was absorbed into the pulsating frequencies of the universe leaving my body an empty and delirious husk for 5-6 hours

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## the fool

I'm not sure, but the converse hasn't been true for me.  Good control on hallucinogens hasn't particularly improved my dream control.

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## Idolfan

> This is actually the sole reason I decided to get into lucid dreaming. A brief history: I heard about it in '06, never really tried it seriously ("oh I'll do it later"). Then in May this year I started watching a ton of Terence Mckenna videos. I decided I wanted to take shrooms again, started reading shrooms literature again... and then arrived at, literally, story after story of bad trips. This only made me remember my last trip - I blacked out, essentially not existing for 5 hours while occasionally 'phasing' into an incredibly hazy (and terrified) dream-like consciousness. I read these stories and the horror of that night began creeping under my skin.
> 
> So I decided I would get into lucid dreaming to aclimate myself to 'weird shit' so that the next time I took shrooms I wouldn't freak out when reality melted away and my consciousenss was absorbed into the pulsating frequencies of the universe leaving my body an empty and delirious husk for 5-6 hours



Huh...

Did it work?

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## Blackichan

> This is actually the sole reason I decided to get into lucid dreaming. A brief history: I heard about it in '06, never really tried it seriously ("oh I'll do it later"). Then in May this year I started watching a ton of Terence Mckenna videos. I decided I wanted to take shrooms again, started reading shrooms literature again... and then arrived at, literally, story after story of bad trips. This only made me remember my last trip - I blacked out, essentially not existing for 5 hours while occasionally 'phasing' into an incredibly hazy (and terrified) dream-like consciousness. I read these stories and the horror of that night began creeping under my skin.
> 
> So I decided I would get into lucid dreaming to aclimate myself to 'weird shit' so that the next time I took shrooms I wouldn't freak out when reality melted away and my consciousenss was absorbed into the pulsating frequencies of the universe leaving my body an empty and delirious husk for 5-6 hours



Doing too much is absolutely terrible. My friends band played a gig and three of us got a hotel room cause it was out of town. Bought a giant bag and ate them all. Worst time of my life.

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## Motumz

I'm sure if you're able to master or even partially control your lucid dream, it HAS to have some type of positive effect while tripping. I'm actually going to keep this in mind. I'm sure if I / anyone else becomes better at lucid dreaming, there will be increased memory and understanding of the actual trip (depending on what you took. I usually trip on salvia)

We should start documenting this. I wish there was more research on this particular subject.

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## Syruplord

I'll be conducting some research tomorrow night  ::banana::

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## Motumz

Alright awesome  ::D:  It would be amazing if we could like master/control our trips. It would be like a literal REAL lucid 'dream'.. But I doubt that's possible. But I would think you could control the trip to some extent if you are good/familiar with the state of lucidity.

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## Captain Sleepalot

I think it is possible, but the variable of psychedelics is such that the drug might overpower whatever control you may have developed depending on the grade and dosage.

The last time I took shrooms, for instance, beforehand I reminded myself to guide my thoughts verbally when things got too crazy (just repeating internally "You're on drugs, and it will eventually wear off so don't worry"). There were several times when just repeating that calmed me down and I was able to enjoy what might otherwise have been a scary trip. I was able to "choose" to engage the visuals that appeared or sort of turn them off and focus on something else.

This is similar to my own sense of lucid dream control in that my inner dialogue is always present, guiding my awareness and frame of mind ("This is just a dream"). The problem with psychedelics is that they can temporarily erase your normal internal dialogue, so you don't have a base from which to cast control over your trip. 

So for me, when the internal dialogue is absent then the "I" is missing and control is not possible. And as I mentioned, psychedelics are really good about erasing that "I" for a while which is when things can get a bit scary and uncontrollable.

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## Catbus

I dunno, shrooms and other hallucinogens deal with chemicals in your brain altering your consciousnesses. Then again, I'm not sure whether dreams are caused by chemicals, and if so then I'd imagine it would be possible to achieve some sort of lucidity. However, me and my friend Phillip have had similar conversations, only dealing with acid instead. He said that as much as he's tried to become lucid, the acid overwhelms him. He's still only tripped a few times, and he said that he's going to continue attempting to gain lucidity. Who knows, it very well may be possible.

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## tranquilitybytrey

Why would you want to control your trips?

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## Syruplord

Oh I definitely get you. I feel like letting complete control go is what makes a good trip. The conscious mind is what gets in the way and makes bad trips, but I haven't ever had a problem with it when doing psychs. I'm going to experiment tonight and see if I can guide it at all though. Maybe make patterns start appearing with my conscious mind instead of my unconscious. Or make them work together to make new visuals or something. We'll see  :smiley:

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## Dannon Oneironaut

> Doing too much is absolutely terrible. My friends band played a gig and three of us got a hotel room cause it was out of town. Bought a giant bag and ate them all. Worst time of my life.



Set and Setting is important. If you were in a safe space to go within your mind it would've been better, I bet.

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## Blackichan

> Set and Setting is important. If you were in a safe space to go within your mind it would've been better, I bet.



Oh for sure that makes a big difference. I've talked to people who have done some before going out to a bar. No chance in hell I'd ever do that. I find tripping on shrooms is better when your out in nature. Doing them at my friends cabin always ends in a good time.

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## Syruplord

I failed to be able to control my psychedelic trip, but I believed that I was controlling everything around me and that everything I was perceiving was a figment of my imagination. Everything in the world collides and meets at NOW

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## gwydion_calamity

my guess is that lucidity is not something that is constrained to dreams. good example of this is trying to be lucid in the waking state - and there is a difference in trying to be conscious while conscious, if that makes any sense.
so I believe this would definitely carry over into psychedelics. this, of course, is predicated on dreams, shrooms/acid/whatever, and waking life all being chemical. is there a guarantee of this ability carrying over? hardly. lucidity is a skill as much as it is a 'state.' I am sure, however, that if you are really good at it, you can navigate the psychedelic state with some proficiency. 
but, as always, things are never exact.
The thing you have to do with psychedelics is learn when to let go and feel no fear. I would equate them to floating as the river rather then swimming inside it. 
unless, of course, you mean control in a very literal sense? that's another thing entirely.
see, control is hard to really do. I think the only thing you have fair control of is the sense of being aware in a trip, rather then picking apart aspects of it and creating things. it's not like a dream... but it still has dream characteristics. in that respect, there should be room to maneuver at the very least.

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## Dannon Oneironaut

Actually, I think the point of psychedelics is to give up control and go with the flow. Control is the ego controlling. Go beyond the ego and the control. 
Like John Lennon said: "Close your eyes, relax and float downstream, it is not dying, it is not dying. Lay down all thoughts, surrender to the void, it is shining, it is shining."

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## [user-name]

> Actually, I think the point of psychedelics is to give up control and go with the flow. Control is the ego controlling. Go beyond the ego and the control. 
> Like John Lennon said: "Close your eyes, relax and float downstream, it is not dying, it is not dying. Lay down all thoughts, surrender to the void, it is shining, it is shining."



Ive eaten shrooms a couple times and every time I tried to understand what was going on, or control the trip, It would just create anxiety which would then start to ruin the trip. (my first one was horrible)

I dont think you would be able to use dream control technique on a trip because the state of mind in both is different. I feel like im more conscious in a lucid dream, and a trip is more like a regular dream. 

I also think that trying to control the trip defeats the purpose.

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## Dannon Oneironaut

However, reality testing and dream control techniques might be useful during a datura trip, but I won't do it again to find out.

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## Reverie Phantom

First post woohoo!

I had a curious thing happen to me regarding tripping and lucids.

The first time I ever tripped shrooms I did it at around noon. That night I had my first lucid dream. The amazing part is that I had been trying to have a lucid dream before for about two months. I believe there is a connection. While trippin I remember telling my friend that I felt like I was in a dream. Psychedelic mushrooms raise the amount of serotonin in your brain, giving you the trippy effect. When you sleep your serotonin chemicals change to melatonin. Melatonin helps you dream, and makes your dreams more vivid. 

I think taking the shrooms helped me have my first lucid, because when I took the shrooms they raised the serotonin levels in my brain, then that night I had extra melatonin, making my dreams vivid and easier to recognize as being dreams. And I believe the feeling is very similar. Practicing control in either area could possibly help control in the other.

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## tommo

I would imagine you wouldn't wanna control your trip at high dosages.  Rather take a JUST hallucinogenic dose, a threshold dose, and see if you can push it a bit further.  Get deeper than you should on that dose, probably through meditation.  Focusing on it intently.

I've thought about this before too and I asked a guy once whether you can and he said he could control trips.  But he was very experienced apparently.  The control I was more thinking was like lucid dream control.  For instance shooting lightning out of your hands or throwing energy balls or morphing a tree in to your subconscious and talking directly to it etc.  He reckons he could do it.  However he could have just been bullshitting.  But I think if it is possible, which it probably is coz it's all generated by the mind anyway, as far as we know, you would have to start with threshold doses and work your way up to higher doses.  Heroic dose would probably just be too much for anybody to stay lucid period.

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## xerod1

> I dunno, shrooms and other hallucinogens deal with chemicals in your brain altering your consciousnesses. Then again, I'm not sure whether dreams are caused by chemicals, and if so then I'd imagine it would be possible to achieve some sort of lucidity. However, me and my friend Phillip have had similar conversations, only dealing with acid instead. He said that as much as he's tried to become lucid, the acid overwhelms him. He's still only tripped a few times, and he said that he's going to continue attempting to gain lucidity. Who knows, it very well may be possible.



Dreams are related to chemicals in your brain, particularly DMT, the most powerful hallucinogen known to man. you can actually purchase it (however not legally, if im correct.) in places such as austin.  if my memory serves, $500 a g   ::shock::

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## FluBB

wow, this is verry interesting. ive never done shrooms but i have friends that always whine about bad trips, maybe this could help.

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## tommo

> Dreams are related to chemicals in your brain, particularly DMT, the most powerful hallucinogen known to man. you can actually purchase it (however not legally, if im correct.) in places such as austin.  if my memory serves, $500 a g



500 dollars!?  Jesus.  Just order some Phalaris Grass seeds, plant em, wait two weeks and harvest the juice.

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## Reverie Phantom

> Dreams are related to chemicals in your brain, particularly DMT, the most powerful hallucinogen known to man. you can actually purchase it (however not legally, if im correct.) in places such as austin.  if my memory serves, $500 a g



DMT is extremely powerful, but not the most.

The most powerful hallucinogen known to man is Salvia Divinorum.  ::roll::

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## LRT

You realize all Salvia does is release DMT, right?

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## Dannon Oneironaut

> DMT is extremely powerful, but not the most.
> 
> The most powerful hallucinogen known to man is Salvia Divinorum.



Salvia is strong, but DMT is powerful. It IS the most powerful.


FluBB	 



> wow, this is verry interesting. ive never done shrooms but i have friends that always whine about bad trips, maybe this could help.



Don't eat mushrooms with these friends. Also, don't do too much. I would say for your first time to eat a half an 1/8 of an ounce (1/16). Work up to an 1/8 and then in the spring or summer on a full moon night go out to the woods with your sleeping bag and eat a heroic dose of 1/4 an ounce and crawl in your sleeping bag. I call that "the Magick Sleeping Bag" trip.

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## Peel

> ]
> So I decided I would get into lucid dreaming to aclimate myself to 'weird shit' so that the next time I took shrooms I wouldn't freak out when reality melted away and my consciousenss was absorbed into the pulsating frequencies of the universe leaving my body an empty and delirious husk for 5-6 hours



Or you could just take low doses.

Honestly, some of my life's best and most rewarding experiences (experiences, not just psychedelic trips) have been on 1.5g or so, and nothing more. Low doses of mushies are so underrated!

Eat a gram or two, take a walk in nature on a beautiful day, and you will feel more alive than you've ever felt before. Least it's that way for me.


I would only start approaching the 3+ gram range after quite a bit of low-dose experience. Or perhaps approach it if you feel no effects whatsoever from 2 grams.


That is also probably an effective way to practice control too.

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## Peel

> You realize all Salvia does is release DMT, right?



This sounds kinda silly...

Have you tried either one?

Salvia and DMT trigger completely different parts of the brain. Salvia triggers your opioid receptors, unlike tryptamines such as DMT and psilocybe mushrooms.


I've never tried DMT, but I've heard it's very different from Salvia (and I can't imagine it being very similar from what i've heard of it and my experiences with Salvia.)

Perhaps Salvia releases some DMT, but that can't be ALL it does...

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## lucid4sho

> DMT is extremely powerful, but not the most.
> 
> The most powerful hallucinogen known to man is Salvia Divinorum.



salvinorin is more potent by weight but many people consider dmts effects to be more perceivable (not necessarily more powerful)





> LRT  	 You realize all Salvia does is release DMT, right?



No way. Like someone mentioned, salvia works via opiod receptors. It is drastically different from DMT in terms of pharmacology and perceived effect, although many people agree that past a certain point the experience becomes nearly identical.

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## Motumz

Salvia does not release DMT. Salvia is the most potent PHSYCOACTIVE known to man. DMT, is not phsycoactive.

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## lucid4sho

> Salvia does not release DMT. Salvia is the most potent PHSYCOACTIVE known to man. DMT, is not phsycoactive.



psychoactive,adj
(Psychology) 
capable of affecting mental activity, a psychoactive drug

psychoactive - affecting the mind or mood or other mental processes; "psychoactive drugs"

DMT is certainly psychoactive  :smiley:

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## Motumz

Yes very true. But DMT is completly different from Salvia, yet so alike. I don't know, honestly. I'd have to experience a DMT trip for myself. Which is probably the biggest thing I want in life at this point haha.

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## tommo

> You realize all Salvia does is release DMT, right?



WTF?




> DMT, is not phsycoactive.



WTF?

Salvia (Salvinorin A) is a kappa-opioid receptor agonist.  It had nothing to do with releasing DMT.
As for DMT being not psychoactive....
Right.... soo everyone's just experiencing the placebo effect I guess? ::lol:: 
Seriously, WTF? ::?:

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## Motumz

No no, I couldn't find the word for it. DMT is "physcoactive". But LSD, shrooms, and Salvia are a different kind I guess? They alter all 5 sences. Or they do for me anyways. DMT is just supposed to be a DMT induced lucid dream that is.. in theory.. supposed to be in another dimension, or the highest of all astral planes.

Not sure if I got my facts straight, cause uhh.. I'm kinda stoned haha. But if I'm wrong or need information please inlighten me!  ::D:  I love learning about drugs ect. *ESPECIALLY*, DMT.

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## tommo

Well that's just some people's opinion that it's a different dimension.  People also say the same about other psychedelics.  So basically we should just call DMT psychoactive.  And even if it does put you in a different dimension it's still psychoactive.  Look, break that word down.  All it means is that it is active, or does something, to the brain.  And it obviously does even if it is putting you in to another dimension.

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## Motumz

Ohhh yea man I get what you are saying. So basically anything that alters your state of mind to an extent is phsycoactive? Whether it is couch syrup or DMT?  :smiley:

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## tommo

Yep.


Now just filling up 10 characters post limit lol.

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## Hijo de la Luna

Both lucid dreaming, drugs/allies and hallucinagens are helpful for learning how to focus the mind and what on. I have had bad dreams & trips where I nearly lost my mind or died. 

I got really addicted to MDMA & it was my ability to calm down & reason that pulled the shotgun out of my mouth on three separate occasions.  

I have had acid or mushroom trips where heinous figures had tormented me or I believed that I would never get back to normal. Here I told myself if I am I will die here without fear. I came back fine.

I have had many great experiences like these and many many other great ones not like these.  

Whatever I state of reality or mind I was in I found bravery, love, fearlessness, joy, & mystery. I think that these allies can help us polish our souls & vision or help us on our journey home. :wink2: 

"Many shadows dance around a bright candle"

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## Jenga

I have had good re-call of dreams and have been having lucid dreams, be it accidental or deliberate for most of my adult life. This is before ever trying any drugs of any kind, and I'd like to think that this helped me when I first tried salvia. When I tried salvia, I'd only ever used weed before and never knew what to expect of salvia. It blew my mind. I first had the most extreme giggles in my life, which progressed to me actually pissing myself with no control of my bladder. My laughter echoed in my head and the room warped but I still knew I was in the room with friends. I then saw ting elephants lined up in the room, blowing their trunks under red and white tents. My experience was the only positive one in the group of who who used it (apart from pissing myself!). Everyone else became scared, couldn't see anyone else and thought the floor was the wall. I thought maybe my experience with dreams and lucid dreaming helped me hold it all together whilst enjoying the trip, since everyone else I did it with has no interest in dreams and don't even know what lucid dreaming is. Or maybe I just agree with salvia better than others, who knows.

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## Hijo de la Luna

That is awesome! ha ha ha Thank you for your honesty and sharing your story. Thats a great way to get the day going.  

Keep Dreaming & have fun.

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## Motumz

Haha dang Jenga. You are quite lucky. I had an aboslutely awful Salvia trip. But I'm glad yours went well!  ::D:

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## Dannon Oneironaut

Take it from someone who is very experienced with both Salvia AND DMT:

By weight, I don't know, but by trip experiences DMT is the king. It is not like a lucid dream! It is like taking 50 hits of LSD and compressing the whole trip into 10 minutes. Whether or not it is an opinion or not that you are in another dimension, you forget about that when you can see inside everything from up above and there are elfs and aliens jumping in and out your chest. You don't have the mental capability to be thinking about if this is just my opinion when you see your life flash before your eyes and you are riding a snake and each scale on his body is a whole universe and he rides through the macroverse feeding off consciousness. You forget about that when you see aliens timetraveling and popping through wormholes that somehow open up in the inner space of your mind but the other end is in outerspace at some vibratory rate that is barely in the but can hover on the edge of physical and mental and appear in either. 

Salvia is cool also, it is different. It is less 'spiritual' as far as the journey of the soul goes but it does open up to more of an 'alternate; dimension of discarnate beings who are seeking rebirth. It also has a slight amnesia thing to it while you are on it you are thinking "this place looks familiar" when you look around. And there is that growing vine and leaf theme and the smell of the spirit.

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## Motumz

Your short trip experiences you wrote about gave me goosebumbs. Shit.. you are my new role model dude. The things I'd do for just 1 DMT experience..

I've been aboslutely HOOKED on reading DMT experiences ever since I learned of its existence.

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## tommo

Motumz it's so easy to get DMT if you learn how to extract it.  Not hard at all.
Google phalaris grass.

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## Dannon Oneironaut

I've got some phalaris seeds and have been meaning to grow some but apparently the hotter the climate is the better the DMT is from it and the less anxiety it causes. I don't like anxiety. I've had problems in the past with anxiety attacks. Not from DMT just from pot, ecstasy (which I don't do anymore) and being sober.

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## tommo

You got anxiety from ecstasy?  Was it pure MDMA?  I'm guessing not coz it's physically impossible to get anxiety from pure MDMA afaik.
lol and being sober, I like that one.
Um, well yeah you could just put it under some lamps for heat.  Giving it stress also makes it produce more alkaloids.  Like not enough water, too much heat, scrunching up the leaves etc. Plus harvesting it at a certain time produces more DMT.  I dunno if the 5-meo-DMT goes up as well though, which I think is what causes the anxiety.  You'll have to google that.  Check erowid for bad trips on 5-meo-DMT and compare it to DMT bad trips, there's WAY less in the DMT section.  Which is what makes me think 5-meo-DMT causes more anxiety.

You could always take half a Valium or Xanax before hand too.  Though not sure how it would effect the trip.

Also some Acacia species have a more gentle effect apparently.  But they're endangered so I would advise against getting wild specimens, but you can get seeds from shaman-australis botanicals website.

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## Awhislyle

> Salvia does not release DMT. Salvia is the most potent PHSYCOACTIVE known to man. DMT, is not phsycoactive.



Nope, salvinorin A is psychoactive at 200mcg, LSD is active at just 20mcg

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## tommo

Lol 20mcg?  That's a threshold dose.  200mcg salvinorin a will give way more pronounced effects I believe, although still mild.

Anyway, I think we were talking about natural hallucinogens.  LSD isn't natural.

Found this study about the kappa-opioid receptor which is what salvinorin a binds too.  Probably salvinorin b and c too.
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v3...p2009183a.html

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## Reverie Phantom

[QUOTE=Dannon Oneironaut;1291721]Salvia is strong, but DMT is powerful. It IS the most powerful.

Untrue...

"Salvia divinorum's active ingredient, Salvinorin A, is a powerful hallucinogen, "as potent as LSD, and essentially, the most potent naturally occurring hallucinogenic drug," says Dr. Bryan Roth, a biochemist and neuroscientist at Case Western Reserve University." (taken from http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5290545)

Where are your sources?

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## Reverie Phantom

> Your short trip experiences you wrote about gave me goosebumbs. Shit.. you are my new role model dude. The things I'd do for just 1 DMT experience..
> 
> I've been aboslutely HOOKED on reading DMT experiences ever since I learned of its existence.



Can I give you some advice?

DMT is not all that great honestly. Don't obsess over it. My friends do DMT and salvia all the time and just from watching them I would have to say that by far salvia looks like a much more enjoyable and rewarding experience. They laugh and fall all over the place and are totally in the zone, enjoying every moment when trippin salvia. When they smoke DMT they just kinda sit there. And I ask em how it was when they come back and they just say, "Kinda weird," or "Sorta like acid," or something like that.

Plus it's hard as shit to smoke! I've tried smoking it 4 different times, and every single time I messed up somehow and didn't any effects whatsoever. 

Shrooms and Salvia are boss. Acid is fun but sometimes too intense. And DMT looks kinda lame.

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## Awhislyle

[QUOTE=Reverie Phantom;1299291]



> Salvia is strong, but DMT is powerful. It IS the most powerful.
> 
> Untrue...
> 
> "Salvia divinorum's active ingredient, Salvinorin A, is a powerful hallucinogen, "as potent as LSD, and essentially, the most potent naturally occurring hallucinogenic drug," says Dr. Bryan Roth, a biochemist and neuroscientist at Case Western Reserve University." (taken from http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5290545)
> 
> Where are your sources?



Strength of effect /=/ Potency 
The use of the word 'potent' in describing a drug or chemical is based on the amount required to achieve an effect, so while salvinorin a might require a much smaller does to receive the effect, this does not say anything about the actual psychedelic power of the chemical compared to another.

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## izabael

Never tried DMT....but I would if I lay hands on it.

LSD definitely increased the intensity of my dreams AND number of lucids.  Salvia D. has not had that same effect on my dreams whatsoever.   Though overall I consider Salvia D. the best Entheogen that exists.

xoxo
Iza

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## Reverie Phantom

> Strength of effect /=/ Potency 
> The use of the word 'potent' in describing a drug or chemical is based on the amount required to achieve an effect, so while salvinorin a might require a much smaller does to receive the effect, this does not say anything about the actual psychedelic power of the chemical compared to another.



May I see some actual sources, instead of you simply TELLING me it's more powerful?





> Never tried DMT....but I would if I lay hands on it.
> 
> LSD definitely increased the intensity of my dreams AND number of lucids.  Salvia D. has not had that same effect on my dreams whatsoever.   Though overall I consider Salvia D. the best Entheogen that exists.
> 
> xoxo
> Iza



My first and only acid trip brought on my second lucid. My first shroom trip brought on my first. Interesting... like I said in a previous post I believe the reason that acid and magic mushrooms can help you achieve lucidity is because of the increase of production of serotonin in the brain, which at night turns to melatonin, making your dream more vivid. Any other possible answer why acid could help with lucidity? I'm open to ideas.  ::alien:: 

Salvia has got to be one of the most incredible Entheogens that exist for sure!

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## tommo

> DMT is not all that great honestly. Don't obsess over it. My friends do DMT and salvia all the time and just from watching them I would have to say that by far salvia looks like a much more enjoyable and rewarding experience. They laugh and fall all over the place and are totally in the zone, enjoying every moment when trippin salvia. When they smoke DMT they just kinda sit there. And I ask em how it was when they come back and they just say, "Kinda weird," or "Sorta like acid," or something like that.



That means.... get ready for it....
ABSOLUTELY FUCK ALL!
Seriously dude wtf.  Watching someone take a drug is nothing like taking the actual drug lmfao
Sorry, I don't mean to sound condescending but that statement made me feel the need to attack it.
Have you ever wondered why they can explain Salvia but not DMT?
It's because DMT is SO fucking far out of anything anybody has ever experienced that they CAN'T explain it.  For a laymen, all they can think of to say is "kinda weird" or "sorta like acid" because they're trying to relate it to something you've experienced and that's the best they can do.
Listen to Terrence McKenna talk about it.  Or a quote from Alan Watts (both of these two guys are very articulate, Alan Watts actually took it because some professor was wondering if he, because of his language skills, could explain the trip. He tried to stay conscious (maintain rational control and verbal fluency during the trip and thus explain it)).  But anyway, the quote.  He said "DMT is like loading the universe in to a gun and firing it in to your brain".





> Plus it's hard as shit to smoke! I've tried smoking it 4 different times, and every single time I messed up somehow and didn't any effects whatsoever.



That's your fault.





> Strength of effect /=/ Potency 
> The use of the word 'potent' in describing a drug or chemical is based on the amount required to achieve an effect, so while salvinorin a might require a much smaller does to receive the effect, this does not say anything about the actual psychedelic power of the chemical compared to another.



This.
"Potency" in scientific terms like the link you posted phantom, is just what awhislyle said, it means the amount of a specific chemical needed to produce a noticeable effect, commonly called the threshold effect.
Slavinorin A does need less to achieve this than DMT afaik.  Although I don't know if anyone has tried smoking 200mcg of DMT.
But the point is, the actual effect the person gets from each drug is what we call potency.  Only scientists, or people having a scientific discussion use potency to describe what dose gives a threshold effect.

The fact is DMT puts you in a way more altered state than Salvia.
Thus, when utilising the general usage of the term "potency", DMT is more potent.  People would usually say "more strong".

You are asking for sources for this claim.  The problem, and you KNOW this, is that you CAN'T get any sources for this.  Which I know is why you asked.
The only way to see is to take it yourself.  Take Salvia and take DMT and see which one blows you away more.

/End of pointless discussion with nitpickers.

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## Dannon Oneironaut

Well said, Tommo...

Basic info here: Psilosybin (active ingredients in mushrooms), LSD, and DMT are all tryptomines as is seratonin and melatonin. Melatonin is converted into DMT by the pineal gland in the brain. That is why they all interact so well with your receptors. Tryptamines and DMT in particular what enables you to dream and see, feel, and hear when you dream or fantasize, or imagine. I have a feeling that the word "trip" or "trippin" comes from the word "TRYPtamine".
You love mushrooms, look how close psylocybin is to DMT. In fact, if you mix mushrooms with a MAOI like lots of passionflower and take a high dose it is just like ayahuasca. I have lots of experience with ayahuasca, DMT, mushrooms, and salvia D. Mushrooms are my favorite.

I would like to try ibogaine.

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## tommo

Yeah it still baffles me that they all fit into the serotonin receptors.  And that changes your perception so much.

I wanna try Harmaline.  Apparently a high dose by itself will give you visuals etc. and elated mood.  I'm gonna start growing Peganum Harmala plant soon.  (Just since that was in your little picture lol)

Also LSA would be good just to test the psychedelic waters.  Then I'd probably just go straight to smoked DMT lol.

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## Motumz

> Can I give you some advice?
> 
> DMT is not all that great honestly. Don't obsess over it. My friends do DMT and salvia all the time and just from watching them I would have to say that by far salvia looks like a much more enjoyable and rewarding experience. They laugh and fall all over the place and are totally in the zone, enjoying every moment when trippin salvia. When they smoke DMT they just kinda sit there. And I ask em how it was when they come back and they just say, "Kinda weird," or "Sorta like acid," or something like that.
> 
> Plus it's hard as shit to smoke! I've tried smoking it 4 different times, and every single time I messed up somehow and didn't any effects whatsoever. 
> 
> Shrooms and Salvia are boss. Acid is fun but sometimes too intense. And DMT looks kinda lame.



I think Salvia is extremely "fun". It's more interesting than fun to me. But it won't work for me any more. I wait 2 weeks for each trip and nothing happens. I get a worldly trip, but it's minor. I might get a couple visuals, but all it does is make me interpret things different.

I even bought *120x* of Salvia and all it did was give me what I said earlier, the worldly trip. Not out of this world, or reality, at all. *Any tips?* I'd really want to trip again, but it's just not working..  ::?: 

I think I read somewhere I need a torch lighter? _(a lighter that emits a blue flame)_ Would anyone know where to get one?


Also, I am smoking it right, trust me haha. And it's through my bong. So smoking it wrong isn't the problem.


*Also.. @Reverie Phantom,* _"DMT sounds kinda lame.."_ No offense, but you almost sound like just some stoner trying to get some thrills here n there. I want to try DMT and other substances similar for the experience. And like many people have said, it's not lame, it's just that the people can't describe it what so ever. I even have a hard time describing my Salvia trips.

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## tommo

Strange, Salvia's sposed to be like reverse tolerance.  You're supposed to need less every time.

You could get those lighters from a tobacco shop or head shop, easily.  Some milk bars even have them.  Just ask for a Jet Lighter.
BTW with those lighters, don't hold the blue bit on the Salvia, you hold the blue bit like a cm or so from the herb/extract whatever.
The blue bit isn't really hot at all coz it's the gas which hasn't burned up yet, the hot flame is above that (if holding lighter upright) and it's almost invisible.

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## Motumz

> Strange, Salvia's sposed to be like reverse tolerance.  You're supposed to need less every time.
> 
> You could get those lighters from a tobacco shop or head shop, easily.  Some milk bars even have them.  Just ask for a Jet Lighter.
> BTW with those lighters, don't hold the blue bit on the Salvia, you hold the blue bit like a cm or so from the herb/extract whatever.
> The blue bit isn't really hot at all coz it's the gas which hasn't burned up yet, the hot flame is above that (if holding lighter upright) and it's almost invisible.



I wasted an entire gram of 120x on Saturday night trying to get out of our universe. Ahhh well. Wish I would of known they sold them at the head shop haha. It's kind of hard buying n stuff from head shops, because I'm 16 and I have to get a friend to go in for me..  ::lol::

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## tommo

Yeaaah, I know wtf?
I went in there the other day for a pipe and he's like you got ID?
I'm like.... "seriously man?"
I mean wtf lol everything in there is borderline illegal anyway lol
Ah well, get a fake ID, I don't think they'd give a shit.

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## Motumz

> Yeaaah, I know wtf?
> I went in there the other day for a pipe and he's like you got ID?
> I'm like.... "seriously man?"
> I mean wtf lol everything in there is borderline illegal anyway lol
> Ah well, get a fake ID, I don't think they'd give a shit.



Exactly it pisses me off. They sell Spice which is like better than dro pretty much.

And on top of that, they are stoners who work there. They should know what I'm in there for and just be chill.


Hah I've got so much stuff from Blue Phoenix tho, I'm just glad my friend has amazing taste in pipes and bongs and grinders!  ::banana::

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## Reverie Phantom

> Watching someone take a drug is nothing like taking the actual drug lmfao
> Sorry, I don't mean to sound condescending but that statement made me feel the need to attack it.
> Have you ever wondered why they can explain Salvia but not DMT?
> It's because DMT is SO fucking far out of anything anybody has ever experienced that they CAN'T explain it.



I totally agree with you man! Watching someone experience it is nothing like experiencing it for yourself. And I'm definitely not down on DMT! I think it's an incredible drug that could have great potential. All I'm saying is from personal experience I would advise someone not to OBSESS over it because that is what I did, which resulted in losing lots of money and much disappointment. And to me it looks like people trippin salvia have more fun than when they trip DMT, but I make no judgment because I haven't tried either drug (I tried smoking DMT but I couldn't "get off"). If you have the opportunity to try DMT than I'd say do it.





> "DMT is like loading the universe in to a gun and firing it in to your brain".



I have felt this way when trippin shrooms a few times lol. I'm sure that DMT could do this...  :boogie: 





> The fact is DMT puts you in a way more altered state than Salvia.



I have to disagree with you on this one. I have read up on salvia and DMT and watched users experience both many times, and if anything salvia puts in a more disoriented state than DMT if not an equal amount. In the beginning both put you in a visionary state, as I'm sure you already know, but coming out of the visionary state while affected makes you feel motion and weight, which counts for something. With DMT when coming out you just can't move. But I'm open to new ideas  :smiley: 





> You are asking for sources for this claim.  The problem, and you KNOW this, is that you CAN'T get any sources for this.  Which I know is why you asked.
> The only way to see is to take it yourself.  Take Salvia and take DMT and see which one blows you away more.



I'm planning on trying salvia soon, but the DMT is a huge waste of resources for me because every time I try smoking it I fail lol. I'd really love to experience it but I don't know how.

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## Reverie Phantom

> *Also.. @Reverie Phantom,* _"DMT sounds kinda lame.."_ No offense, but you almost sound like just some stoner trying to get some thrills here n there. I want to try DMT and other substances similar for the experience. And like many people have said, it's not lame, it's just that the people can't describe it what so ever. I even have a hard time describing my Salvia trips.



You're right I've been a bit of a downer on DMT and I don't mean to do that. I would enjoy DMT if I could smoke it properly and blastoff lol. And I don't mean to judge. I hate people who judge on things they've never experienced. I would rather try salvia than DMT, it just sounds so cool, but a DMT blastoff is some people's "thing" I guess and that's cool with me.  :;-):

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## tommo

Ok well, how to smoke it.  You need a DMT pipe or a crack pipe.  OR you can put it in a bong on top of some oregano.
You need to hold the flame just above the DMT until it melts in to the oregano, then breathe in more forcefully and inhale the vapours and hold it in for 30 seconds.  If in a crack pipe, hold the flame just below the glass and do the same, wait till it goes liquidy and inhale the vapours and hold for 30 seconds.
You need to take 3 hits to get a complete experience.

If I was doing it i'd try one hit (2 to 5 mg) first for a couple of times, mainly because I haven't had any strong psychedelic trips, and then go for a full 3 hits when I think I'm ready.

Apparently DMT will kill your ego straight away with a 3 hit dose (around 40 to 60 mg).  So you'd have to be prepared for that.  I don't think I am yet.

Here's a smoking guide.
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt_info1.shtml

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## Reverie Phantom

I should have looked up how to do it because when I first tried my dealer told me to smoke it just like bud. I didn't have a pipe at the time so I made a homemade tinfoil one. I put the spice by itself inside and lit the shit out of it. It melted right away  :Sad:  I loaded a second hit of the stuff and the same thing happened.

Next time I tried to get off I made a pop bottle pipe. This time I heard I need to put it on top of some kind of herb so I used parsley (which I heard works well) and sandwiched it. I held the flame about half an inch above the parsley and took two hits and waited. Nothing happened so I investigated the bowl. After poking around I found all the DMT melted AGAIN! I loaded a second bowl and tried it once more, this time holding the flame about an inch away from the bowl. I sucked really hard to get the flame to bend towards the herb/ spice, and it sucked all the spice through the bowl into the pipe, unvaporized. GOD DAMN! lol

And that's my very sad DMT story.

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## Motumz

Ahhhh I see what you are getting at Reverie Phantom. But dude! You've wasted so much DMT fool!  ::roll:: 

You need to get a pipe, research, then meditate and smoke.

And where do you live by the way? Seems there is an abundance of DMT where you live  ::bowdown::

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## Dannon Oneironaut

If you have never tried it yourself then you are in no position to judge which is stronger than the other. Watching people, talking to people, it doesn't matter. Try it, then judge. Also, what's the big deal anyway which is strongest?

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## tommo

It's not a big deal and if you'd read it you'd realise we've resolved the dispute.  I fucken hate it when someone comes in almost trolling trying to start up another argument.  It THAT hard to read a thread before posting?  Unless it's longer than 5 pages I don't see why you wouldn't.

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## Reverie Phantom

> Ahhhh I see what you are getting at Reverie Phantom. But dude! You've wasted so much DMT fool! 
> 
> You need to get a pipe, research, then meditate and smoke.
> 
> And where do you live by the way? Seems there is an abundance of DMT where you live



I know, I've wasted so much money on the junk lol. I'd still love to blastoff, but I think I might wait until summer to try again because I'm down on income. Shrooms are the way to go... no hard methods of smoking with great possibilities of screwing up. Just eat the shit lmao.

I live in Omaha, NE. I'm not sure if there is an abundance so to say... I just have a really good hook up. lol





> If you have never tried it yourself then you are in no position to judge which is stronger than the other. Watching people, talking to people, it doesn't matter. Try it, then judge. Also, what's the big deal anyway which is strongest?



I agree, and as I said before I'm open to ideas, and I definately WON'T judge.

I'm not sure what the big deal is ha ha. It's just fun to get long, arguey threads  ::sniper::  lol

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## I U

mediation of any form will be a bonus

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## tommo

> I know, I've wasted so much money on the junk lol. I'd still love to blastoff, but I think I might wait until summer to try again because I'm down on income. Shrooms are the way to go... no hard methods of smoking with great possibilities of screwing up. Just eat the shit lmao.



Yeh but with shrooms you have the chance of getting poisonous ones etc.  Plus the 6-8 hour trip and longer depending on how much you do.  If that turns bad and you can't get out of it, it's not gonna be pretty.  Whereas DMT will be over in 5-10 minutes and apparently even bad trips aren't that bad coz it's just similar to a nightmare once you get out of it.

Basically there's dangers with any drug, well, there's dangers with everything you ever do.  But for major things you weigh up the pros and cons and decide whether it's worth it.

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## Reverie Phantom

> Yeh but with shrooms you have the chance of getting poisonous ones etc.  Plus the 6-8 hour trip and longer depending on how much you do.  If that turns bad and you can't get out of it, it's not gonna be pretty.  Whereas DMT will be over in 5-10 minutes and apparently even bad trips aren't that bad coz it's just similar to a nightmare once you get out of it.
> 
> Basically there's dangers with any drug, well, there's dangers with everything you ever do.  But for major things you weigh up the pros and cons and decide whether it's worth it.



It is true that you could be sold a poisonous shroom if you buy it off the black market from an unreliable source (not to mention you'd have to have no idea what a good shroom looks like)... but for the most part I use a consistently good dealer, and the few times I have thrown away a shroom it's because it looked very putrid. I have eaten questionable shrooms before and had a perfectly normal trip. And generally shroom trips don't last any longer than 5 hours, unless you take a heroic dose. Bad trips do happen, but they seem to be much more prevalent with acid instead of shrooms. A bad shroom trip is just a little anxiety, and they can be totally avoided if you're careful.

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## LokiTheCoyote

allright... first an answer to the original question... 'does lucid dreaming help control a psychedelic trip?'.. or something along those lines

This is a subject I have a ton of experience in... and yes, I can say it definetly does.

Especially with a  plant called Datura, one of the most bizarre/disturbing plants I have EVER worked with.. now PLEASE do not go looking for it if you don't know what it is, it is EXTREMELY dangerous, death could easily become of you, by means of the plant itself, or something you do after ingesting the plant, as you are so far gone you will probably not even know you are on anything, and could end up in all sorts of trouble, including death.

the hallucinations are completley different from the traditional hallucinogens, the walls wont breath, and you probably wont see cool kaleidoscopic patterns everywhere... what you will see, is people walking right up to you, having a 10 minute conversation, then just vanishing right before your eyes.. they are so lifelike and vivid that you generally cannot tell them from reality... then there's the mindfuck, which is very very much like dream logic, you're freind could be sitting on the ceiling having a cup of tea, while a bear will be walking through your living room and the dirty plate on the table is teaching you how to play cards, and you would think nothing strange is happening, this is just the way things are.

You could also be standing at work, having a conversation with your boss on monday morning, only to snap out of it and realize you're standing with your freind at a 7-11 talking to the chocolate bar rack at 3:30 in the morning, then you realize your freind was actually just a magazine on a magazine rack... or even worse, find yourself standing in the middle of the freeway.

hence why it is so dangerous... you never 'really' know what's going on, no matter how much you may think you do, every thing seems so real when it's happening, just like a dream.

how lucid dreaming comes into play, is the fact that the trip itself is so similar to a waking dream, it's amlost familiar territory to an avid lucid dreamer.. and if you are an adept at finding and maintaning lucidity during a dream, you can carry that skill into the datura world... although the stakes are a lot higher if you can't

you can also turn the trip from a basicaly meaningless disordered trip around the imagination to something  little more useful (sound familiar?) 

once you get good at it, you can create hallucinations, evoke entities into your own living room and all sorts of other strange things...

again... DO NOT go looking for this stuff, the plant itself is extremely toxic, and you never know how concentrated the alkoloids are in each plant, there is no average potency per plant... in a patch with 3 daturas, one could kill you with a few seeds, eating the whole plant right next to it could cause nothing at all, and the last one could be anything in between... and the trip itself is very very hard to control, you could easily end up in the psychward... it's also not at all pleasent, a lot of dysphoria and confusion... it is nothing like LSD or mushrooms or anything else out there, except maybe dramamine.

yes I have done it numerous times... but please don't follow in my foot steps unless you are ABSOLUTLEY sure you know what you're doing, I read about it for close to 10 years before I tried it.

here's a good place to start reading about it http://www.erowid.org/plants/datura/datura.shtml

**phew** that was longer than I planned lol... 

there's some more stuff I want to talk about in this thread, mostly about DMT and salvia, but I gotta go to bed... be back tommorow

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## LokiTheCoyote

> Apparently DMT will kill your ego straight away with a 3 hit dose (around 40 to 60 mg).  So you'd have to be prepared for that.



Salvia will completely destroy your ego in seconds... much faster and harder than DMT, assuming it's potent and not just plain leaf

1 good rip of 20-30X held for as long as you can will have your entire being tossed into the cosmic sausage grinder before you even blow it out usually

DMT is a lot smoother... most people I come across actually enjoy the experience, and wish to repeat it... with salvia, it's more like "I WILL NEVER TOUCH THAT SHIT AGAIN... EVER"

Even after doing salvia well over a hundred times, I still feel like I'm about to jump out of a plane or something while I'm lighting my bowl  ::shock:: 

anyone ever try 5-meo-DMT?.. now THERE'S a force to be reckoned with.

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## LokiTheCoyote

> I have felt this way when trippin shrooms a few times lol. I'm sure that DMT could do this...



DMT makes even 'heroic' dose mushroom trips seem like a glass of milk in comparison... as does salvia

P.S. sorry for not putting these all into one post, I'm not sure how to add quotes while editing  :tongue2:

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## Reverie Phantom

> the hallucinations are completley different from the traditional hallucinogens, the walls wont breath, and you probably wont see cool kaleidoscopic patterns everywhere... what you will see, is people walking right up to you, having a 10 minute conversation, then just vanishing right before your eyes.. they are so lifelike and vivid that you generally cannot tell them from reality... then there's the mindfuck, which is very very much like dream logic, you're freind could be sitting on the ceiling having a cup of tea, while a bear will be walking through your living room and the dirty plate on the table is teaching you how to play cards, and you would think nothing strange is happening, this is just the way things are.



You know, when I first looked at this thread I was definitely thinking more along the lines of "traditional" hallucinogens, such as mushrooms, peyote, and LSD. (Which I believe could be helpful in learning dream control) Datura in itself is one extremely interesting bit psychological study, but relating it to lucid dreaming... Wow! I think you hit on something big here! I have never experienced that drug, but it's certainly an interest to me, and no doubt most psychedelic adventurers. 





> hence why it is so dangerous... you never 'really' know what's going on, no matter how much you may think you do, every thing seems so real when it's happening, just like a dream.
> 
> how lucid dreaming comes into play, is the fact that the trip itself is so similar to a waking dream, it's amlost familiar territory to an avid lucid dreamer.. and if you are an adept at finding and maintaning lucidity during a dream, you can carry that skill into the datura world... although the stakes are a lot higher if you can't



The fact that the hallucinations (I've heard of a very common "cigarette" datura hallucination, where someone think they are holding a cigarette and it suddenly disappears, so they think they dropped it.) are so lifelike makes datura very much like a dream... you believe what's happening is real, even if it's quite odd. I like it





> you can also turn the trip from a basicaly meaningless disordered trip around the imagination to something  little more useful (sound familiar?)



This could be the best lucid state invoking drugs that has been discussed yet. I'm going to do a little more research on it. Thank you very much for bringing it up!

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## Reverie Phantom

> Salvia will completely destroy your ego in seconds... much faster and harder than DMT, assuming it's potent and not just plain leaf
> 
> 1 good rip of 20-30X held for as long as you can will have your entire being tossed into the cosmic sausage grinder before you even blow it out usually
> 
> DMT is a lot smoother... most people I come across actually enjoy the experience, and wish to repeat it... with salvia, it's more like "I WILL NEVER TOUCH THAT SHIT AGAIN... EVER"
> 
> Even after doing salvia well over a hundred times, I still feel like I'm about to jump out of a plane or something while I'm lighting my bowl 
> 
> anyone ever try 5-meo-DMT?.. now THERE'S a force to be reckoned with.



You've obviously done DMT and 5meo dmt... 

what's the difference. From what I heard the 5meo doesn't have visual hallucinations but everything else is the same as a normal DMT experience. I would definitely like to hear some first hand experience.  :Bliss:

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## Dannon Oneironaut

Hey LokiCoyote! Another Datura person here!
   I did datura in the desert of Sedona Arizona. it is exactly like you described. Luckily I wasn't in town, I don't even want to think what would've happened to me.
I was all by myself in the desert but I thought I was at a festival! I was gone for three days and four nights. I met all kinds of spirits. In the beginning Native Americans were going to teach me to disappear if I promised to live in that realm forever. No thanks. Boulder spirits were bribing me with cigarettes to walk backwards 20 steps with my eyes shut bu luckily I looked and I was about to walk off a cliff. Then they all started laughing. Bastards. My guide was a little naked bald transparent dude who communicated with gestures and telepathically. He kept me out of too much trouble. I saw giant witches dancing with puppet dinosaurs that turned into pine trees. A giant Raven on the Mesa was eyeing me each night. I did run into real-life people and it always left me confused and it scared the shit out of this one girl who was camping by herself and I was "at a campfire talking to a bunch of people" outside her tent. 
I read up on it afterwards and learned that it works by inhibiting what blocks your dreams while you are awake so that you are basically dreaming while you are walking around. 
I did this before I was experienced in lucid dreaming. I always wondered what would happen if you combined could be lucid. I had the problem too of not remembering that I took any datura or that anything wasn't real. I've read that some wizards would use datura to conjure spirits to lead them to treasure. 
Words for others: "Don't do it!"

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## tommo

Datura, very interesting actually.  I've heard people discuss it just for taking before bed, but to use it to sort of train is a good idea!





> Salvia will completely destroy your ego in seconds... much faster and harder than DMT, assuming it's potent and not just plain leaf



Yeah but I heard DMT destroys your ego like, forever.  Salvia only during the trip.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  I've just heard everyone say "you'll never look at anything the same again after taking DMT".  Never heard that about Salvia.

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## tommo

I also like the
*insert fucking crazy awesome story here*

Don't do it.

LOL  ::lol::   Every person who's taken Datura that I've talked to has said that.

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## Dannon Oneironaut

> You know, when I first looked at this thread I was definitely thinking more along the lines of "traditional" hallucinogens, such as mushrooms, peyote, and LSD. It's certainly an interest to me, and no doubt most psychedelic adventurers.



I think the thing here is that calling mushrooms, peyote, and LSD hallucinogens is a misnomer. They actually just distort stuff and you see geometric shapes. I think that these are better to be called psychadelics. 

Datura, on the other hand, is not psychadelic at all. But you hallucinate your ass off. There is no expanded consciousness, no amazing insights into the nature of reality. rather, on the contrary, it is basically like a non-lucid dream. But, if you DID acchieve lucidity. 

Some thoughts on this:

I never was brave enough to try but I wondered if mixing mushrooms with Datura would be good... or REALLY BAD. I never tried it. Mushrooms could provide the lucidity or on the other hand it isn't a good idea to mix things if you aren't familiar with it and you can end up in hell with this mixture, or dead.

I thought about doing Datura in a tepee in a ritual setting and somehow staying focused enough not to wander out.

The most disturbing thing about Datura for me was that many of the spirits were trying to get me to do something stupid so I would die and live in that realm forever. They would try to trick me, or try to seduce me with magick powers. There was a Queen of the ghost world who wanted my soul. Has anyone seen Spirited Away? That movie is a lot like a Datura trip. Many of those characters were in my experience and my trip happened about ten years before I ever saw that movie.

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## tommo

Heh, so many cartoons and animations are 'drug induced'.

And yeh that's true, psychedelic would be the proper word for shrooms, LSD etc.

Datura is more a delusional hallucinogenic.  And I spose shrooms and LSD would be classed as that too at really high doses.

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## Reverie Phantom

> I think the thing here is that calling mushrooms, peyote, and LSD hallucinogens is a misnomer. They actually just distort stuff and you see geometric shapes. I think that these are better to be called psychadelics. 
> 
> Datura, on the other hand, is not psychadelic at all. But you hallucinate your ass off. There is no expanded consciousness, no amazing insights into the nature of reality. rather, on the contrary, it is basically like a non-lucid dream. But, if you DID acchieve lucidity.



It's true, Datura does fit the ideal definition of "hallucinogen". However, LSD, mushrooms, and peyote are still classified under hallucinogen, and if taken in high enough doses they can certainly be hallucinogenic. Low doses result in psychedelic patterns. I remember one high dose of shrooms I took one time when I tripped in a ravine with my friend and I started seeing animals all around and I thought I was an animal going to the animal store. It was as if I had this really clear memory of being an animal. I wasn't moving or anything, I was seeing it in my head. And when my friend called my name I kinda came out of the "trance" and I realized I had been watching a bunch of gnats flying around a sewer pipe that drained into the ravine ha ha. It's like the gnats became the animals I was seeing or something. Very magical.

So I guess all I'm saying is I don't believe more common psychedelics should be immediately written off as being "non-hallucinogenic". That's all.

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## Motumz

> Datura, very interesting actually.  I've heard people discuss it just for taking before bed, but to use it to sort of train is a good idea!
> 
> 
> Yeah but I heard DMT destroys your ego like, forever.  Salvia only during the trip.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  I've just heard everyone say "you'll never look at anything the same again after taking DMT".  Never heard that about Salvia.



Correct. It only humbled me during the trip and like an hour after. But, I do see reality different after my trip with Salvia.

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## Ashylus420

> I dunno, shrooms and other hallucinogens deal with chemicals in your brain altering your consciousnesses. Then again, I'm not sure whether dreams are caused by chemicals, and if so then I'd imagine it would be possible to achieve some sort of lucidity. However, me and my friend Phillip have had similar conversations, only dealing with acid instead. He said that as much as he's tried to become lucid, the acid overwhelms him. He's still only tripped a few times, and he said that he's going to continue attempting to gain lucidity. Who knows, it very well may be possible.



If I remember correctly, the dream chemical is DMT.

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## gab

Old. Locked.

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