# Lucid Dreaming > Dream Control >  >  Advanced Dream Controllers Thread

## EricinLA

Looking for very advanced dream controllers to talk to about their experiences and abilities.

This is an example of the type of people I would love to talk to:

1) Can Totally Control all aspects of your dream (Including Location, Environment, People and your own abilities)

2) Can wake yourself up from a dream at any time.

3) You basically are GOD in your dream world and can do anything that pops into your mind.


If you are at this level I would love to have discussions here.

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## RelaxAndDream

Hi,
spontaneously i would suggest Sageous and Sivason but dont know if they have an interest in this conversation. but i would love to read your discussions  :wink2:

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## Sensei

I don't like the term "advanced dream control" for things like that since they all can be done easily depending on who you are. 

Probably 1/5 lucids is like this for me. I am only a few years into lding. I consider things to be advanced if they take more than one dream to achieve.  For instance persistent realms and things like that. I count my dream items that are persistent under the same category. I have them each dream and they don't change, I give them specific powers so that I can have some limits in dreams. 

With "godlike" powers, I must ask, how big is the dream that you go into? Square miles or kilometers would be nice. I have never had control of an entirety of my dream, meaning, no matter how far I reach my consciousness I haven't run out of dream world to inhabit, and thus I am not "God" in the dream, but either everything I can see or scan. Basically, what I mean, I can do whatever I want in the space I can see. I can expand that past everything I see into everything I can feel, but that is only expanded to about a kilometer or so in diameter. Make sense? I can feel that there is tons of room for improvement. Especially since I rarely remember my goals, and in super powerful mode, I am usually using "walk control" which seems to be less satisfying or fun than other forms of control.

Tldr,  if you can have anything you want with a snap of your fingers, the journey is the reward.

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## Sageous

> Hi,
> spontaneously i would suggest Sageous and Sivason but dont know if they have an interest in this conversation. but i would love to read your discussions



I always have an interest in the advanced stuff, RelaxAndDream, but unfortunately my interest usually wanders a bit off the beaten path and I don't help the conversation much.  For instance, here's a funny thing:

I would say I actively enjoyed all three categories of the OP's advanced dream controllers prerequisites at least 20 years ago, and even played with godlike powers per Sensei's well-framed parameters (I actually -- and regularly -- ran out of dreamworld and opened up new horizons of my own design). However, since then I rarely if ever practice that kind of control.

Why?  For two very different reasons:  

        First and foremost, I have followed the progression of control and self-awareness in dreams to a point where I've encountered a world of discovery and growth that moves well beyond the reach of any dream control, even the godlike variety; a world of transcendental dreams that brings me to places/conscious conditions that exceed my imagination and creativity... I would even say I've found those two things reversed, where imagination and creativity are _returned_ to me in a very pure form, which I've found difficult to comprehend and (being transcendental) impossible to properly describe.  I'm not sure that made sense, but such is the nature of these conversations!

        Second, and at the other end of the spectrum, I've found that my dreaming mind, my unconscious, is more than capable of managing my dreams for me.  I have no problem with lucidly deciding I want to do something or go on some adventure and letting my dreaming mind do all the work with creating the world, DC's, plots, etc.  We are all endowed naturally with an incredible dream-creation engine that can probably top anything we can consciously manage ourselves, so why bother trying to play god when the dream will be better without the effort?   So in a sense I am doing OP's requirement #3, but letting my dreaming mind do the heavy lifting creatively.

About the only time I intentionally practice godlike power anymore is when I want some quiet time and choose to erase the entire given dream and simply exist in an environment of near perfect nothingness; there is nothing more relaxing!  I'm not sure if that counts as godlike because it seems to run anathema to the idea of dream control, but I figured I'd throw it in.

Finally, I'm a little confused about requirement #2:  Is being able to wake yourself up at any time really advanced control?  I'm not sure.

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## RelaxAndDream

i thought something like that sageous. i know you can do this stuff but are more like: "who cares godmode?" you have a way different focus or aim with ld. and i think sivason might be similar. i think that most of the really advanced and yearlong lucid dreamers get to a point where godmode just gets boring and they start to look out for something more. and if it is the search for god or the sense of life or silence or enlightenment or another world where you have no powers and might die is depended on the type of person.

to the OP: other potential candidates for this topic that come into my head this night (dont know why i am thinking about this stuff at night^^) might be: PercyLucid and Mzzkc?  :smiley:

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## EricinLA

> I don't like the term "advanced dream control" for things like that since they all can be done easily depending on who you are. 
> 
> Probably 1/5 lucids is like this for me. I am only a few years into lding. I consider things to be advanced if they take more than one dream to achieve.  For instance persistent realms and things like that. I count my dream items that are persistent under the same category. I have them each dream and they don't change, I give them specific powers so that I can have some limits in dreams. 
> 
> With "godlike" powers, I must ask, how big is the dream that you go into? Square miles or kilometers would be nice. I have never had control of an entirety of my dream, meaning, no matter how far I reach my consciousness I haven't run out of dream world to inhabit, and thus I am not "God" in the dream, but either everything I can see or scan. Basically, what I mean, I can do whatever I want in the space I can see. I can expand that past everything I see into everything I can feel, but that is only expanded to about a kilometer or so in diameter. Make sense? I can feel that there is tons of room for improvement. Especially since I rarely remember my goals, and in super powerful mode, I am usually using "walk control" which seems to be less satisfying or fun than other forms of control.
> 
> Tldr,  if you can have anything you want with a snap of your fingers, the journey is the reward.



For me I've gotten to point years ago where all my dreams are lucid and I can take control at any time.  I do like to do what I call "Free Dreaming" now.  Where I don't interfere with the dream unless I feel a need to.

I got bored controlling every aspect of the dream.   I considered in like my own private "Holodeck" from Star Trek.   Since I learned on my own at a very young age; I just figured it out as I went and grew better at control every night.
Funny, I assumed at around the age of 12 that everyone could do it and was doing it.  But when I talked to other kids or adults about my dreams they seemed to think I was nuts.  So I learned to keep my mouth shut.   But I kept progressing for years until I gained full control with little to no effort.  It became second nature to me.  It was and still is very fun.  I find it keeps me very calm and relaxed in my waking life.

I found this site a few years back and posted a few things and read a lot of posts.  But never found anyone that had my level of control.   I can't be the only one out there.  Maybe it's because I started so young and have doing it for so long.  But I hope to have some good discussions with others.  Maybe I could pass on some of my experience to others trying to gain better control as well.

I hope this thread continues to grow.

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## EricinLA

> I always have an interest in the advanced stuff, RelaxAndDream, but unfortunately my interest usually wanders a bit off the beaten path and I don't help the conversation much.  For instance, here's a funny thing:
> 
> I would say I actively enjoyed all three categories of the OP's advanced dream controllers prerequisites at least 20 years ago, and even played with godlike powers per Sensei's well-framed parameters (I actually -- and regularly -- ran out of dreamworld and opened up new horizons of my own design). However, since then I rarely if ever practice that kind of control.
> 
> Why?  For two very different reasons:  
> 
>         First and foremost, I have followed the progression of control and self-awareness in dreams to a point where I've encountered a world of discovery and growth that moves well beyond the reach of any dream control, even the godlike variety; a world of transcendental dreams that brings me to places/conscious conditions that exceed my imagination and creativity... I would even say I've found those two things reversed, where imagination and creativity are _returned_ to me in a very pure form, which I've found difficult to comprehend and (being transcendental) impossible to properly describe.  I'm not sure that made sense, but such is the nature of these conversations!
> 
>         Second, and at the other end of the spectrum, I've found that my dreaming mind, my unconscious, is more than capable of managing my dreams for me.  I have no problem with lucidly deciding I want to do something or go on some adventure and letting my dreaming mind do all the work with creating the world, DC's, plots, etc.  We are all endowed naturally with an incredible dream-creation engine that can probably top anything we can consciously manage ourselves, so why bother trying to play god when the dream will be better without the effort?   So in a sense I am doing OP's requirement #3, but letting my dreaming mind do the heavy lifting creatively.
> ...



Yes, you sound like you have great control.  I got bored years ago with totally controlling the dream and do "Free Dreaming" and let it take me where it may.   I learn many things in this state.  Sometimes I even see things that happen in the future (don't get me wrong) but it could be just coincidental but I find it fascinating.  I still love to experiment in my dreams.  

#2 Waking yourself up.   I learned that one at a very young age before I learned "Total Dream Control".   If I was having a dream I didn't like I learned to wake myself up.  I can still do it if I want to.  Just wondering if others can do it will.

I would love to here more of your experiences now and when you were younger.

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## Sensei

> For me I've gotten to point years ago where all my dreams are lucid and I can take control at any time.  I do like to do what I call "Free Dreaming" now.  Where I don't interfere with the dream unless I feel a need to.
> 
> I got bored controlling every aspect of the dream.   I considered in like my own private "Holodeck" from Star Trek.   Since I learned on my own at a very young age; I just figured it out as I went and grew better at control every night.
> Funny, I assumed at around the age of 12 that everyone could do it and was doing it.  But when I talked to other kids or adults about my dreams they seemed to think I was nuts.  So I learned to keep my mouth shut.   But I kept progressing for years until I gained full control with little to no effort.  It became second nature to me.  It was and still is very fun.  I find it keeps me very calm and relaxed in my waking life.
> 
> I found this site a few years back and posted a few things and read a lot of posts.  But never found anyone that had my level of control.   I can't be the only one out there.  Maybe it's because I started so young and have doing it for so long.  But I hope to have some good discussions with others.  Maybe I could pass on some of my experience to others trying to gain better control as well.
> 
> I hope this thread continues to grow.



Not interfering with the dream unless you need to sounds too much like a non lucid dream to me, I have seen many naturals do this and I always think it is strange. I guess because when I exhaust the fun from LDs, I plan on working only on hobbies and for supplementing mental practices. I have heard from quite a few, as well as experienced it a bit myself, that when you practice something in your waking life, supplemented with dream practice, you learn at a much faster rate.

I understand that there is no wrong way to Lucid dream btw, I am just asking as nicely as I can. Why not try for something more when LDing? 

A few questions:
*Can you create a place, dream character, or item that can effectively take away specific powers?* In creating persistent realms, I am planning on making many different rules and regulations, some that even just have the same restrictions as waking, but in a different world. Many anime places and things that I would find fun and interesting to create my own world and then practice "that worlds powers"
*Can you create fake memories?*
*Can you dilate time?*
*Can you delete memories?*


Also, reiterating the question, 




> With "godlike" powers, I must ask, how big is the dream that you go into? Square miles or kilometers would be nice. I have never had control of an entirety of my dream, meaning, no matter how far I reach my consciousness I haven't run out of dream world to inhabit, and thus I am not "God" in the dream, but either everything I can see or scan. Basically, what I mean, I can do whatever I want in the space I can see. I can expand that past everything I see into everything I can feel, but that is only expanded to about a kilometer or so in diameter. Make sense? I can feel that there is tons of room for improvement. Especially since I rarely remember my goals, and in super powerful mode, I am usually using "walk control" which seems to be less satisfying or fun than other forms of control.



The reason I have so many questions, is mainly because I do teach the dream control and stabilization class. I believe that the start of dream control is breaking the barriers that stop you from controlling, and the next part is finding more fun and interesting ways to apply it. This is why "creativity" is the best dream control, because it doesn't get boring.  :wink2: 

I am interested in your abilities, there are certain things that I have heard from many people that LD a lot (some even as much as you), and I generally get the same answers from naturals and the same answers from non naturals.

Also, lots of people usually wake themselves up from nightmares at a young age (I had about 5 LDs when I was a kid because of nightmares and I learned to wake myself up), most people have frightening lucid experiences that they learn to wake themselves up from. 





> I would say I actively enjoyed all three categories of the OP's advanced dream controllers prerequisites at least 20 years ago, and even played with godlike powers per Sensei's well-framed parameters (I actually -- and regularly -- ran out of dreamworld and opened up new horizons of my own design). However, since then I rarely if ever practice that kind of control.



Quite interesting Sageous. Do you mind if I ask you these questions as well? You are a lot more metaphysical and esoteric than I, but that might just come with age. haha. 

*Can you create a place, dream character, or item that can effectively take away specific powers?* In creating persistent realms, I am planning on making many different rules and regulations, some that even just have the same restrictions as waking, but in a different world. Many anime places and things that I would find fun and interesting to create my own world and then practice "that worlds powers"
*Can you create fake memories?*
*Can you dilate time?*
*Can you delete memories?*

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## Sageous

*Eric:*





> I would love to here more of your experiences now and when you were younger.



I'm not sure what I would share about my specific experiences from the early years; I am not a big fan of sharing specific dreams because it takes forever to relay them (my _short_ remembered dreams are often thousands of words long) and I have a feeling they'd be fairly dull reading for anyone who is not me.   I did write a couple of novels that were drawn almost fully from those early dreams that I believe defeated the dullness problem, but I doubt you'd want to read an entire book to get a feel for what I was dreaming/thinking about in those days.  

However, Sensei reminds me very much of me in those early years, in that many of the things he described are things I also tried back then, so he is sort of reporting my state of mind back then (I hope you don't mind the association, Sensei!).  Well, there is one major exception:  

LD'ing for me has from the beginning been a tool for developing my mind/consciousness and my spiritual link with reality (man, that sounds like something I actually would have said when I was 20!).  I had never intended LD'ing to be an end unto itself, though I do admit that that is exactly what it was straight though my teens and early 20's (about 30 years ago).  

Since then, though, my focus really has been on using the unique state of consciousness that is LD'ing to further connect my waking-life mind with my unconscious, and to search for the "more" that I hope is out there and/or in me (more so with each passing year).  These days, whenever I manage a high-level LD I generally walk away from anything remotely dreamlike and work on constructing metaphors meant to allow me to conjure transcendental moments and then bring them back to waking-life in a form through which I can understand what was really going on in them.

...Of course, on the frequently occurring days when my self-awareness and memory are not running on all cylinders, I am content to have lucid adventures that range from simply going with the flow (aka, I assume, Free Dreaming) to fooling with given dream scenes and DC's, to simply erasing the dream and installing a more interesting story (letting, again, my dreaming mind do the dream-scene/schematic heavy lifting), to just creating that "nothing" I mentioned above and deeply relaxing... I'm afraid I have left long behind doing the the godlike stuff just for the sake of having godlike control, though. 

Finally, and more relevant to the thread, I think I need to mention my opinion about control:  

For me, the mechanics of dream control at any level -- from going with the flow, to universal creation, to building transcendental bridges -- is unimportant.  If you are fully self-aware in a dream and possess a waking-life level of access to memory, then control, for me at least, is just an afterthought.  After all, if you are completely aware that your entire dreamworld is simply "You," then being able to change, create, or develop dream scenes, DC, and dream worlds would seem like a natural skill -- control just happens when you know everything you see is just an extension of your own mind.  So, as I think Sensei said somewhere up above, I'm not sure that there really is an "advanced" dream control; only advanced levels of lucidity. 


*Sensei:*

I know this wasn't directed at me, but:




> Not interfering with the dream unless you need to sounds too much like a non lucid dream to me, I have seen many naturals do this and I always think it is strange. I guess because when I exhaust the fun from LDs, I plan on working only on hobbies and for supplementing mental practices. I have heard from quite a few, as well as experienced it a bit myself, that when you practice something in your waking life, supplemented with dream practice, you learn at a much faster rate.



All true, but don't underestimate the power of your own dreaming mind.  Sometimes it is genuinely amazing to lucidly witness your dreams unfolding around you.  It's not something I would do all the time (and I'm not sure Eric does either), but going with the flow can be a fascinating and even powerful experience; I wouldn't recommend fully dismissing the activity.

Oh, and of course I obviously agree that it is a very good idea to always move forward and do new things as the current fun stuff gets old.





> Quite interesting Sageous. Do you mind if I ask you these questions as well? You are a lot more metaphysical and esoteric than I, but that might just come with age. haha.



  Such things do tend to grow on people as they age, but for me the metaphysical and esoteric stuff has been fueling my work at some level since day one.  Indeed, holding those goals at the forefront has helped keep my mind young as the years slide by.

At any rate, sure, I'll have a go at your questions:





> *Can you create a place, dream character, or item that can effectively take away specific powers?*  
> 
> I guess so, though I've never been very concerned with taking away or giving powers in my dreams.  I did dabble fairly successfully long ago in converting existing dreams and DC's to worlds that followed my own rules and expectations, if that counts.







> *Can you create fake memories?*
> 
> We all can, as that is the nature of NLD's.  But that wasn't your question, was it?  I don't believe you can honestly create a fake memory while lucid, because you will immediately know that memory is contrived and therefore not credible.  I can certainly create fake histories to support a current created dreamworld, but I'm not sure that is the same thing.







> *Can you dilate time?*
> 
> I am still working on that.  I've found that the perception of time works about the same in a LD as it does in waking-life, so the best lucid time-dilation I've managed is a few minutes seeming like hours in deeper delta dreams or those LD's in which I've erased everything.  
> 
> That said, I have some odd theories about time itself, and hope to use advanced LD'ing to eventually prove my case to myself -- and when I do, time-dilation should be a snap!
> 
> Also, this is for LD's only.  Perceived time-dilation is commonplace in NLD's, which I'm sure you already know.







> *Can you delete memories?*
> 
> That is not a question to ask someone over 50!  
> 
> Seriously, though, like creating fake memories, I don't believe you can lucidly delete memories with real honesty; you will know you have deleted them.  I can certainly delete memories in my DC's, though, or delete history in my dream stories, if that is what you are asking.
> 
> Oh, and, again, we all delete memories every night in our NLD's...

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## EricinLA

> Not interfering with the dream unless you need to sounds too much like a non lucid dream to me, I have seen many naturals do this and I always think it is strange. I guess because when I exhaust the fun from LDs, I plan on working only on hobbies and for supplementing mental practices. I have heard from quite a few, as well as experienced it a bit myself, that when you practice something in your waking life, supplemented with dream practice, you learn at a much faster rate.
> 
> I understand that there is no wrong way to Lucid dream btw, I am just asking as nicely as I can. Why not try for something more when LDing? 
> 
> A few questions:
> *Can you create a place, dream character, or item that can effectively take away specific powers?* In creating persistent realms, I am planning on making many different rules and regulations, some that even just have the same restrictions as waking, but in a different world. Many anime places and things that I would find fun and interesting to create my own world and then practice "that worlds powers"
> *Can you create fake memories?*
> *Can you dilate time?*
> *Can you delete memories?*
> ...



Let me explain what I have been doing for decades

1) I can fall asleep in only a few minutes by calming my mind
2) I always know I am in a dream (just became 2nd nature over time)
3) I have learned to totally control all aspects of the dream
   A) I can control all my own abilities and powers(Unlimited) (can't get hurt ever)
   B) I can control the environment around me by just thinking about it.  (No real effort)
   C) I can jump to another location instantly or just change my current one.
   D) I can create any character I want and control them.

*** The one thing I have never been able to do is connect to someone else in dream with any confirmed proof.  I always try to pass some piece of info to the other person.   Never works.  I don't know if it is possible.  I've talked to other that have claimed to do it.  I think they are just fooling themselves.

Understand?

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## Sensei

@Sageous, I don't mind being considered like a young you.  ::D:  I definitely have some differences in beliefs though.  :smiley:  I need to buy that book from you. I keep forgetting about it when I have the spending money.

I guess sometimes I do spend some time just enjoying the dream, even if I remember my goals. Like this:





> I look out the window and see an island in the sky (floating around like it isn't supposed to be there, when I first look I can see on top, but it is starting to flip upside down), of course I am in the sky as well. it seems like the earth has been blown to bits, but the atmosphere remains. gravity doesn't seem to make much sense I stare at that for like 5 minutes, because it is beautiful.



I also often have to go with the flow a lot during WILDs, because sometimes I try to move and I move my waking body instead, so I let it go with the flow until I can feel most of my senses. I can move it around using "imagination movement" if I want to rush it, but rushing in a dream really isn't my style, at least not anymore. If it takes me a couple dreams to complete a goal, no worries. I got all the time in the world. haha. 

Gotcha, thank you for answering my questions Sageous.  ::D: 





> Understand?



Yeah, I understand pretty well, but that doesn't answer any of my questions. :/

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## EricinLA

> *Eric:*
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what I would share about my specific experiences from the early years; I am not a big fan of sharing specific dreams because it takes forever to relay them (my _short_ remembered dreams are often thousands of words long) and I have a feeling they'd be fairly dull reading for anyone who is not me.   I did write a couple of novels that were drawn almost fully from those early dreams that I believe defeated the dullness problem, but I doubt you'd want to read an entire book to get a feel for what I was dreaming/thinking about in those days.  
> 
> However, Sensei reminds me very much of me in those early years, in that many of the things he described are things I also tried back then, so he is sort of reporting my state of mind back then (I hope you don't mind the association, Sensei!).  Well, there is one major exception:  
> 
> LD'ing for me has from the beginning been a tool for developing my mind/consciousness and my spiritual link with reality (man, that sounds like something I actually would have said when I was 20!).  I had never intended LD'ing to be an end unto itself, though I do admit that that is exactly what it was straight though my teens and early 20's (about 30 years ago).  
> ...



I would be interested on how you got started?  What age?  How long did it take you to control your dreams?  Etc

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## Sageous

*Sensei:*





> @Sageous, I don't mind being considered like a young you.  I definitely have some differences in beliefs though.  I need to buy that book from you. I keep forgetting about it when I have the spending money.



 They come in downloadable and Kindle versions, too (Sageous says, having abandoned all pride)!  

As long as I'm shamelessly promoting my work: _ Oneironauticus_ captures my dreamworld view from that era, and _Party Line_ is about shared dreaming... and both are fully fueled by my own dreams (so is _Simply Pay Attention_, but in a different manner -- 2nd edition is coming soon, BTW).  

Sorry; I couldn't resist!  :sageous: 

*Eric:*




> I would be interested on how you got started?  What age?  How long did it take you to control your dreams?  Etc



I think sometimes that it started me, but I began taking my dreams and dreaming seriously when I was about 15; I had many LD's before that, but at that age is around when I started thinking that there might be places to go with my dreams.

I think the primary consideration that got me started was an interest in developing my consciousness and my place/potentials in reality, and dreams seemed like a shortcut to the answers for which I was looking.  

I enjoyed a modicum of control from day one (probably because I have always had the mindset that everything in a dream was part of the overall "Me," so control ought to be easy), and I think I reached the godlike control per your parameters (or, a "yes" to all three questions in your OP) by the time I was in college, or probably within 3 years*** of deciding to take the practice seriously.

*** [EDIT: I got to thinking about the time-frame I listed above, and, after blowing the dust off of some really old DJ's, discovered that the actual amount of time it took me to get to godlike control was more like 4 to 5 years... it seemed important to note the correction, and that memory can be a troubling tool sometimes.]

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## FryingMan

> but going with the flow can be a fascinating and even powerful experience; I wouldn't recommend fully dismissing the activity.



Maybe it comes from being towards the "mature" end of the spectrum, but my most memorable and enjoyable LDs are those where I exert minimal control and just go with the flow and observe the fascinating ability of my mind to create entire scenes and scenarios.

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## EricinLA

> [B]
> *Eric:*
> 
> 
> I think sometimes that it started me, but I began taking my dreams and dreaming seriously when I was about 15; I had many LD's before that, but at that age is around when I started thinking that there might be places to go with my dreams.
> 
> I think the primary consideration that got me started was an interest in developing my consciousness and my place/potentials in reality, and dreams seemed like a shortcut to the answers for which I was looking.  
> 
> I enjoyed a modicum of control from day one (probably because I have always had the mindset that everything in a dream was part of the overall "Me," so control ought to be easy), and I think I reached the godlike control per your parameters (or, a "yes" to all three questions in your OP) by the time I was in college, or probably within 3 years*** of deciding to take the practice seriously.
> ...



I think I was similar.  I was Lucid Dreaming before 10 years old.  Not sure exactly when it started.  But that is when I started to experiment with control.   Trying to basic things that bugged me.   Better sight.  Make things brighter and in color.  If I had a nightmare being able to wake myself up at will.  Then making myself invulnerable to things in my dream or seeing myself from a outsiders perspective.   In my teens sometimes I had trouble distinguishing between my waking memories and dream memories.  Eventually I overcame that problem around the time I gained total control around 19 or 20.  Then the fun began.

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## EricinLA

> Maybe it comes from being towards the "mature" end of the spectrum, but my most memorable and enjoyable LDs are those where I exert minimal control and just go with the flow and observe the fascinating ability of my mind to create entire scenes and scenarios.



I call that "Free Dreaming".  Let the dream go where it wants with no to minimal interference.  I've learned a lot from the dreams and have solved problems in my waking life that way.  Kind of like a T.V. show about your life.
Taking total control has become second nature and takes very little effort.  Funny, people here don't understand you can get bored eventually controlling every dream.  But after 30 years of total control it does.

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## Sensei

> Funny, people here don't understand you can get bored eventually controlling every dream.  But after 30 years of total control it does.



I have heard from about 10 different people that full control can get boring. In fact, I don't try to have full control in them, I limit and restrict myself in my own dream world as well as giving DCs certain elements of control so that I don't have to deal with everything. I just get to go on my own adventure, either one I feel like at the time, or in my own dream world Zödra, and continue my quests and fun there with my created friends and enemies.

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## EricinLA

> I have heard from about 10 different people that full control can get boring. In fact, I don't try to have full control in them, I limit and restrict myself in my own dream world as well as giving DCs certain elements of control so that I don't have to deal with everything. I just get to go on my own adventure, either one I feel like at the time, or in my own dream world Zödra, and continue my quests and fun there with my created friends and enemies.



During your "Free Dreaming" have you ever saw something that came true later in waking life?   I have a few times.  I don't know if it is was just a coincidence or something else.

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## Sensei

> During your "Free Dreaming" have you ever saw something that came true later in waking life?   I have a few times.  I don't know if it is was just a coincidence or something else.



During some dreams and some non lucid dreams I have seen things that come true in waking, but it is never anything important. Funny enough, it is usually things like TV shows and meeting people. I am still a little ticked off that I didn't talk to this one girl I met in a dream and then saw in 3 different places in one day. I haven't seen her again, but each time I saw her, she kept looking at me like she recognized me. My wife has dreams like this too. She will tell me about an episode of a TV show, and then 3 months later, that episode will air, it gets pretty specific too. I have started writing down all of her dreams that she tells me too. 

Have you tried to induce this? It is something I have thought about trying before, but never tried it. :/

----------


## RelaxAndDream

@eric & @ sensei: 
Do this kind of dreams feel different to you? Do you know that this dream is one that might happen in waking live at some point or do you just know it in retrospective?

----------


## EricinLA

> During some dreams and some non lucid dreams I have seen things that come true in waking, but it is never anything important. Funny enough, it is usually things like TV shows and meeting people. I am still a little ticked off that I didn't talk to this one girl I met in a dream and then saw in 3 different places in one day. I haven't seen her again, but each time I saw her, she kept looking at me like she recognized me. My wife has dreams like this too. She will tell me about an episode of a TV show, and then 3 months later, that episode will air, it gets pretty specific too. I have started writing down all of her dreams that she tells me too. 
> 
> Have you tried to induce this? It is something I have thought about trying before, but never tried it. :/



Induced what kind of dream exactly???

----------


## EricinLA

> @eric & @ sensei: 
> Do this kind of dreams feel different to you? Do you know that this dream is one that might happen in waking live at some point or do you just know it in retrospective?



They do feel a little different since you aren't focusing on controlling everything.  You are more of an observer.  If you are in the dream you are seeing yourself from an outsiders perspective.
I've actually mentioned things to people in my waking life of what I dreamed about.  Sometimes they come back days or weeks later and said it happened.  Kind of freaked them out.  But other times nothing.

----------


## Sensei

Have you tried to learn how to induce dreams about the future? With perfect control, you should be able to set up circumstances to learn the future. With the amount of time you have to practice, I feel like it would be a matter of time before you lean how to use this just like every other dream control.  :smiley: 

Also, how often do you leave your dream body or transform into some other form? I find it very difficult to believe that trasforming into animals can get boring, but I guess for me, when I transform into animals I have a couple different ways. lucidly transform, or transform and purposefully lose lucidity, running through the forest as a wolf is one of my favorite things, lucidly and non lucidly.

----------


## EricinLA

> Have you tried to learn how to induce dreams about the future? With perfect control, you should be able to set up circumstances to learn the future. With the amount of time you have to practice, I feel like it would be a matter of time before you lean how to use this just like every other dream control. 
> 
> Also, how often do you leave your dream body or transform into some other form? I find it very difficult to believe that trasforming into animals can get boring, but I guess for me, when I transform into animals I have a couple different ways. lucidly transform, or transform and purposefully lose lucidity, running through the forest as a wolf is one of my favorite things, lucidly and non lucidly.



Never tried to purposely dream looking into the future.  I guess I could try.  It usually just happens during "Free Dreaming".

Becoming something else in a dream.  Yes, I can become anyone or anything.  I can become something else and see myself my outside my body as I'm another person looking at the situation.  I think I figured that out around age 20.
Sometimes I will jump from person to person in my dream.  Just for the heck of it.

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## Sensei

> Never tried to purposely dream looking into the future.  I guess I could try.  It usually just happens during "Free Dreaming".
> 
> Become something else in a dream.  Yes, I can become anyone or anything.  I can become something else and see myself my outside my body as I'm another person looking at the situation.  I think I figured that out around age 20.
> Sometimes I will jump from person to person in my dream.  Just for the heck of it.



Awesome! Let me know how it goes. 

Gotcha, when jumping into people, can you hear their thoughts? Can you lose yourself to them? 

also @RelaxAndDream, It is always retrospective for me, I never know that it is going to happen. Here is a thread I made about it once. 
http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...-girl-irl.html

----------


## EricinLA

> Awesome! Let me know how it goes. 
> 
> Gotcha, when jumping into people, can you hear their thoughts? Can you lose yourself to them? 
> 
> also @RelaxAndDream, It is always retrospective for me, I never know that it is going to happen. Here is a thread I made about it once. 
> http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...-girl-irl.html



I don't know if I hear their thoughts.   But sometimes I feel I have knowledge I wouldn't normally have.  I wish I could retain it when I was awake.  I've tried.  Can't do it so far.

----------


## Sageous

> I have heard from about 10 different people that full control can get boring. In fact, I don't try to have full control in them, I limit and restrict myself in my own dream world as well as giving DCs certain elements of control so that I don't have to deal with everything. I just get to go on my own adventure, either one I feel like at the time, or in my own dream world Zödra, and continue my quests and fun there with my created friends and enemies.



Keep in mind, though, that full control only becomes tedious _after_ you've practiced it for a while.  

Practicing full control and, more importantly, learning the state of mind required to practice full control without effort, is well worth doing for at least a little while.  The path toward developing full control will help develop your general self-awareness and LD'ing quality, even if you never achieve it.  So, besides being a very cool thing to do (at first), the ability to manage full control consistently is a very powerful tool to have in your lucid toolbox.

----------


## Sensei

> I don't know if I hear their thoughts.   But sometimes I feel I have knowledge I wouldn't normally have.  I wish I could retain it when I was awake.  I've tried.  Can't do it so far.



Sounds like a couple things for you to practice.  :smiley:  I have these "false memories" As I call them, of their life up to that point and can root around in their brains. I can do the same thing when I become lucid. It doesn't seem to be something that is classified as "normal dream control", so it might be something that I shall keep developing, since I seem to have a knack for it. 





> Keep in mind, though, that full control only becomes tedious _after_ you've practiced it for a while.  
> 
> Practicing full control and, more importantly, learning the state of mind required to practice full control without effort, is well worth doing for at least a little while.  The path toward developing full control will help develop your general self-awareness and LD'ing quality, even if you never achieve it.  So, besides being a very cool thing to do (at first), the ability to manage full control consistently is a very powerful tool to have in your lucid toolbox.



Thank you for the advice. I shall keep that in mind while developing my dream control.  :smiley:

----------


## EricinLA

I'm still looking for Advanced Dream Controllers.

Anyone else care to chime in?

----------


## alana

Eric I feel like my lucid dreaming experiences and abilities sounds very similar to yours!

In nearly all my dreams, I have always been somewhat aware that I am dreaming but most of the time I just choose to follow along with my dream as they unfold. In my dreams ever since I was younger, I have just had an underlying awareness that I was dreaming that would sometimes be reinforced by conversations I had with characters in my dreams about the fact I was dreaming. I then started controlling my dreams when I taught myself to wake up by choice. I learnt this weirdly by interacting with dream characters who very slowly taught me how to wake myself up and gave me dreaming advice ? This worked and I can still wake up from a dream at any point by just opening my eyes. I then learnt to control my dreams and my thought process is usually along the lines of.. 'Wouldn't it be funny if etc happened..' followed by my brain consciously triggering those events in my dream. 

Later on I also learnt how to change dreams and create dream landscapes by just imagining the new surroundings around me and I can fly/float across huge intricate landscapes. I also play out different scenarios that I am interested in, overcome fears and explore feelings and ideas that I normally wouldn't think about. For example, I was able to overcome countless fears after directly confronting them while dreaming.

Usually though I just do 'free dreaming' as you call it and add or change things in the dream if I don't like the direction it's going in. The weirdest experiences I've had though is when I am able to feel my other senses while dreaming? Like on maybe one or two occasions I've been able to taste food and smell things despite being aware that I was dreaming and I shouldn't be able to smell/taste things but I was so surprised on those occasions that I woke myself up.. 
Anyone else ever have an experience like this?

----------


## EricinLA

> Eric I feel like my lucid dreaming experiences and abilities sounds very similar to yours!
> 
> Usually though I just do 'free dreaming' as you call it and add or change things in the dream if I don't like the direction it's going in. The weirdest experiences I've had though is when I am able to feel my other senses while dreaming? Like on maybe one or two occasions I've been able to taste food and smell things despite being aware that I was dreaming and I shouldn't be able to smell/taste things but I was so surprised on those occasions that I woke myself up.. 
> Anyone else ever have an experience like this?



I've found since I have such detailed control that things like smell and taste work "at will" most of the time.  You have to want to taste or smell something.  If not is like the senses don't exist.
Sight, Hearing are always turned on.  Touch is on/off depending on the situation is good or bad.

Like in the beginning of my dream controlling decades ago things were in a shadowy black and white.  Then I learned to dream in bright vibrant color.  It is the same with the rest of the senses.
After awhile is just second nature and it won't startle you awake.

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## Wisher

Id say i'm an lower-intermediate dream controller.

Ive had all my senses in dreams. That is part of the fun, tasting in hyper-drive. Senses can by amazingly hyper-realistic in lucids.

Also there were people who mentioned lucid dreaming the future. I had an idea months ago on how this could be done. From my experience when dream events came true it was usually a dream I found interesting, so my engagement was there. I was excited the event was happening to me. At the same time I had no attachment to the outcome. So it was cool to see this hot girl, but I wasnt attached one way or another if i ever saw her again. Or it was cool to see extra money in my account but I wasnt concerned if I had it there or not.

So basically while lucid, dream life as you would like to see but do not be concerned with whether it happens or not. Appreiate the creation whether it will succeed or not in turning real. 

I think these times worked because it was highly relaxed (asleep and dreaming), highly focused (lucid conciousness is high awareness), and low resistance (no strong tug for or against the event happening). Maybe the positive emotion had something to do with it too. Anyway, a combination of these factors seemed to break my threshold between "dream" and "waking" allowing a dream to materialize as a future event.

And just a final note. Godlike powers are awesome. I consider trancendence and erasing all of existence as godlike as well. Transcendental exp. may be the pinnacle of entertaining godlike powers. Things like eliminating time and space all together, or non-existing. 

And then to answer senseis questions i think any time a question starts with "can i" the answer is always yes. Oh and of course paradoxically also no, among other things.. I say this mostly because  the language of the land of dreams is gibberish. Of course we can impose logic superficially but 2+2 can = duck. For the sake of conversation and answering your questions though I say yes, anything is possible.

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## DannyCool

All I can say is that all this stuff is awesome. I can relate to the dream control stuff getting boring and moving more into observing. Control seems to have kinda gotten me into trouble because I am just living my world and although I enjoy the control and happiness that comes from it people don't appreciate me just thinking about myself so I have got into the observing more now or you could say lucidity. That is why I want to learn how to be lucid all night in dreams from working on my awareness and more responding to how other people are rather than just how I can make the world. My empathy levels are low and I have just become bored with having control or it does not seem to be goal. Lucidity and awareness and understanding others and supporting them to find happiness too is the goal. Just like when you can become others in dreams we too are others and can support them and free us from thinking just about ourselves.

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## EricinLA

> All I can say is that all this stuff is awesome. I can relate to the dream control stuff getting boring and moving more into observing. Control seems to have kinda gotten me into trouble because I am just living my world and although I enjoy the control and happiness that comes from it people don't appreciate me just thinking about myself so I have got into the observing more now or you could say lucidity. That is why I want to learn how to be lucid all night in dreams from working on my awareness and more responding to how other people are rather than just how I can make the world. My empathy levels are low and I have just become bored with having control or it does not seem to be goal. Lucidity and awareness and understanding others and supporting them to find happiness too is the goal. Just like when you can become others in dreams we too are others and can support them and free us from thinking just about ourselves.



DannyCool,

I have to say when you mentioned your "Empathy Level" being low. It rang a bell.  Back in the early 90's I had gotten into something like that.  I don't know if it was caused by me being a God 8 hours at night.  At that time I wasn't really doing "Free Dreaming".  I was controlling almost all aspects of my in precise detail.  So I guess it was kind of messing with my real waking life for a short time.   I was able to overcome that with the "Free Dreaming" and now if anything I feel more Empathy than ever for others.  I have been told I'm an excellent person for feeling other people out in a very short time.  Comes in handy.

But I guess for a short time I might have been considered an "arrogant asshole".  Another pitfall when you have full total control.  I'm glad I was able to get past that and grow.

----------


## Hukif

Well, guess I could have been considered as part of that back in the day when I just learnt how to properly control dreams but found it boring far too fast.
Not getting hurt ever is not fun, not having any real challenges is boring, in my opinion that was the worst part of my lucid dreaming.

If I wanted a new planet? Just delete the one I was in and recreate it, already knew what every DC was doing and how they were going to move next and could basically do anything I wanted just by wishing it. Which lead to my very first few goals, one to destroy my own powers and make my world one with rules, regulations and "dangers" and the other being to learn how to defeat those seemingly "god like" creatures in a way that made sense.

Been journaling through dream worlds for a while now ever since, but aside from being able to wake myself up at any given time, even wake half my body and keep the other half asleep don't meet any of the other two requirements any more.

Still, I would be interested to hear about what things you have tried EricinLA.

----------


## EricinLA

> Well, guess I could have been considered as part of that back in the day when I just learnt how to properly control dreams but found it boring far too fast.
> Not getting hurt ever is not fun, not having any real challenges is boring, in my opinion that was the worst part of my lucid dreaming.
> 
> If I wanted a new planet? Just delete the one I was in and recreate it, already knew what every DC was doing and how they were going to move next and could basically do anything I wanted just by wishing it. Which lead to my very first few goals, one to destroy my own powers and make my world one with rules, regulations and "dangers" and the other being to learn how to defeat those seemingly "god like" creatures in a way that made sense.
> 
> Been journaling through dream worlds for a while now ever since, but aside from being able to wake myself up at any given time, even wake half my body and keep the other half asleep don't meet any of the other two requirements any more.
> 
> Still, I would be interested to hear about what things you have tried EricinLA.



I have tried about everything you can think of over my 40 years of Lucid Dreaming.   The one thing that I haven't been able to accomplish is connecting with someone else in a dream with definitive proof.
If you have a specific question.  Shoot?

----------


## Hukif

Sure thing, have you tried exploring animal senses? Such as Echolocation, the sharks sense of electricity or such? Expanding conciousness around a dream without being "one" with the dream, or making persistent realms? Right now these are the things that interest me.

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## EricinLA

> Sure thing, have you tried exploring animal senses? Such as Echolocation, the sharks sense of electricity or such? Expanding conciousness around a dream without being "one" with the dream, or making persistent realms? Right now these are the things that interest me.



In Total Control I can be aware of everything around me 360 degrees and also things that are in other locations at the same time.  Kind of an Omnipresence.  I have unlimited senses (not just the 5 humans have).  Knowing and sensing everything, everywhere.  God Mode.  Not easy to explain.

Including knowing the future, reading minds or whatever I want.   After I have been doing it for years I would wonder how God doesn't get bored.  Maybe he is just in Free Dreaming mode himself now.

----------


## Sageous

> ... I would wonder how God doesn't get bored.  Maybe he is just in Free Dreaming mode himself now.



I wouldn't be surprised...

----------


## Hukif

> In Total Control I can be aware of everything around me 360 degrees and also things that are in other locations at the same time.  Kind of an Omnipresence.  I have unlimited senses (not just the 5 humans have).  Knowing and sensing everything, everywhere.  God Mode.  Not easy to explain.
> 
> Including knowing the future, reading minds or whatever I want.   After I have been doing it for years I would wonder how God doesn't get bored.  Maybe he is just in Free Dreaming mode himself now.



Oh no, omniprescence is another thing altogether. I'm talking more about using specific senses that exist on other species of animals, rather than just feeling everything. I have done the former with ease, but the later proved to be more of a challenge, in other words trying to feel the world outside of the human perspective.
Well, if I were a thing like a god, I would simply devoid myself of the feeling of boredom and keep going. In fact have taken away certain emotions inside of dreams to see how that goes for the time being, have you done something similar?
And what about a persistent world in dreams?

----------


## EricinLA

> Oh no, omniprescence is another thing altogether. I'm talking more about using specific senses that exist on other species of animals, rather than just feeling everything. I have done the former with ease, but the later proved to be more of a challenge, in other words trying to feel the world outside of the human perspective.
> Well, if I were a thing like a god, I would simply devoid myself of the feeling of boredom and keep going. In fact have taken away certain emotions inside of dreams to see how that goes for the time being, have you done something similar?
> And what about a persistent world in dreams?



I don't limit myself in a dream.  It took too long to gain the ability of control.  Going from Black & White to Vivid Color.   From No Control... To Some Control... To Full Control.   I don't see the point of limiting the experience by being an animal or going back to black and white.

"Persistent World"...  I create the World each time or let it evolve around me.  Then change it as needed.   It is in your mind so it will be what you want it to be.  Evolve the way you want it to evolve.  It doesn't have a life of it's own when you are awake.   It's not an online video game.  It can't be... It doesn't really exist.  It is created in your dream and vanishes when you wake up.   You can go back into the same dream and continue... but that is about it.

----------


## Hukif

So you haven't really tried everything? limitations is a part of dreaming too which I find very fun to work with, different opinions I guess. Anyway I am interested in exploring the way of dreams further away than just the normal "sleep/awake". For example using a dream to study maths or other things, to practice certain body movements and see if it becomes better in waking and so on, to experiment and was wondering if you did the same, but that's it.

Also, I never said it had to "really exist", just using the terminology that exists here in DV. I know that it is created whenever you go to sleep, it is just that I created a set of rules that allows it to get the illusion of being a "persistent" realm; really get confused when people try to take everything in a literal way when speaking about dreams, thats strange. I would think that dreams are more about being creative and challenging your own mind, rather then aiming for the top and just hitting a wall.

----------


## EricinLA

> So you haven't really tried everything? limitations is a part of dreaming too which I find very fun to work with, different opinions I guess. Anyway I am interested in exploring the way of dreams further away than just the normal "sleep/awake". For example using a dream to study maths or other things, to practice certain body movements and see if it becomes better in waking and so on, to experiment and was wondering if you did the same, but that's it.
> 
> Also, I never said it had to "really exist", just using the terminology that exists here in DV. I know that it is created whenever you go to sleep, it is just that I created a set of rules that allows it to get the illusion of being a "persistent" realm; really get confused when people try to take everything in a literal way when speaking about dreams, thats strange. I would think that dreams are more about being creative and challenging your own mind, rather then aiming for the top and just hitting a wall.



I think you are at the place I was at around 35 years ago when I was around 15 years old.  I did try the animal thing before Total Full Control.  But it was so boring...  You will see. 

The ultimate is "Free Dreaming".   Let the dream evolve around you and let it take it's natural course with no to little interruptions from yourself.   You will learn a lot about yourself.   I now have a almost Monk like calmness that people always notice.  
Also, it is really weird... but sometimes I dream of things that comes true later.  I don't understand that part myself.  Just keep exploring and push the boundaries.   
The most important thing is too enjoy yourself.  It shouldn't feel like work.   Have fun.

P.S. You can't bring school like learning in Math or other things back to the waking world.   You can solve specific problems you are dealing with in waking life and bring the solution back.   I have done that over and over.
Good Luck.

----------


## Hukif

Ok, which senses did you try? Again I see just different opinions as I quite like to use non-human senses even now and dislike free dreaming; one does not have to use free dreaming to learn a lot about oneself. I also have dreamt of future events and can acuratelly "predict" (More like read) events around the room I'm sleeping in by recreating them inside the dream using the external stimuly my body gets.

Did my post make it seem like I feel like working in dreams? If so I apologize because I do enjoy what I do, otherwise wouldn't go around it; it seems to me you are misunderstanding. Especially because your PS says the very same thing I said, learning =/= studying.

And again, you have not done everything if you haven't worked with limitations after full control. Maybe it seems silly to you, but to me just sitting in total control of the dream is like seeing a wall and not wanting to get past it because the world behind is far more comfortable than what lies ahead. Like I said, different opinions but to me that is one boring way to use dreams to further challenge ones own creativity and further advance both in dreams and real life.

And before anyone misunderstands, I'm not stating that free dreaming can/is not the ultimate. In my view there is no definite ultimate, just stating the way I like to do things, if for you free dreaming is the pinnacle of dreaming then thats cool; just always  trying to understand more about the way other people dream and how they go about challenging themselves.

----------


## Sageous

Hukif makes a good point, Eric, and one I've thought about a few times while following this thread.

Though I am a fan of Free dreaming (or going with the flow, as I call it), I really do not think it is the best tool for exploration for an advanced LD'er; indeed, you can learn just as much about yourself simply by remembering NLD's, as can anyone.

As a dreamer with 40 years' experience myself (I must change my profile before it's 50), I've found that using my skills to push the envelope of consciousness and spiritual experience -- to basically attempt to go where I've never been before -- is far more valuable than simply participating in the dream without making any input or alteration.  And as an aside, God-like power to me is more of a valuable tool for avoiding boredom than it is a cause for boredom.

What are we missing here?

----------


## EricinLA

> Hukif makes a good point, Eric, and one I've thought about a few times while following this thread.
> 
> Though I am a fan of Free dreaming (or going with the flow, as I call it), I really do not think it is the best tool for exploration for an advanced LD'er; indeed, you can learn just as much about yourself simply by remembering NLD's, as can anyone.
> 
> As a dreamer with 40 years' experience myself (I must change my profile before it's 50), I've found that using my skills to push the envelope of consciousness and spiritual experience -- to basically attempt to go where I've never been before -- is far more valuable than simply participating in the dream without making any input or alteration.  And as an aside, God-like power to me is more of a valuable tool for avoiding boredom than it is a cause for boredom.
> 
> What are we missing here?



I did the animal thing long before I was in so called "God Mode".  It wasn't much of a challenge.  It was only interesting for a short time.  But I do get bored easily.  
Every night I can create any World, be anything, do anything with no real effort.   I can wake myself up at anytime and go back to sleep in a couple minutes.  I can be half awake and asleep in the dream.  I could go on.

I don't understand why Hukif would want to limit his senses.  I've actually created new more advanced senses (can't explain) in my dreams.  Maybe I'm at a different level and I'm not getting my point across.
The stuff he is talking about I did decades ago.  Been there, done that.

You?

----------


## Hukif

I have used far more senses than just the normal ones and created new ones too, that was not my point.

Have to ask, do you feel like I'm attacking you or something? You have this attitude of "I'm leagues above you so stop". I have created countless different universes in dreams too, done time dilation in each of them and experienced life as if I was something other than a human or a known being, don't see why that will make my point stronger or weaker though.

In your words, I could easily say "been there, done that" with the full control of dreams and creating any worlds and being anything with no real effort, but again that is not the point. You have been dodging half my questions; guess if you don't want to talk to me thats fine too, I'm not trying to make this a competition so oh well.

Have a nice day Eric!

----------


## Wisher

Yo,

So, my responses on this subject I can understand are a bit abstract, but why do you as advanced dream controllers still believe in a reality outside of yourself?

Do you ADCs still think reality is a thing? True question. Why or why not?

----------


## FinnTheFlobot

Hey,

So I've always heard that sensations can be much more intense in dreams. Does this mean that if someone is decent at control they could make themselves feel euphoria and bliss beyond anything imaginable in waking life? Can this be overwhelming?

Has anyone tried crawling into really random places like couches or a DCs mouth just to see where you end up? 

Do you ever make your dreams really trippy and abstract like you're having a strong psychedelic experience?

I know you all can control DCs and what not but have you been able to split your conscious and control multiple people at the same time?

I'm sorry if these seem really basic, they probably do lol, i just have a million questions like these and I'm curious what people's experiences are

Peace

----------


## Sageous

Here are a couple of thoughts, even if they're ones you guys might not want to hear:

*Wisher:* 




> ...but why do you as advanced dream controllers still believe in a reality outside of yourself?



"Believe" seems an odd word choice to me, since reality is the thing that remains after all belief is removed from the equation.  Anyway: for me, I "believe" in reality these days just as much as ever, if not more.  

Lucid dreaming is almost by definition the acceptance or understanding that the place you are in during a dream is _not_ real.  Even if you are the type who wants to believe that you are visiting other dimensions or planes of existence, you will tend to call those places _alternate_ realities, and still reserve actual reality for the place you arrive at upon waking; when dreams seem "realer than real," you are still using reality as the baseline for comparison. 

Also, keep in mind that the time that you truly believe that a dream is reality comes when you are _not_ lucid; it is lucidity that both reminds ou that the actual world is somewhere beyond your dream, and allows you to bring a bit of realtiy into the dream, in the form of memory and waking-life self-awareness. 

On top of all that, when you step into the really advanced stuff and start encountering whole new states of existence or experience, these states complement or improve on reality, they do not diminish it; if anything, they increase your appreciation for the Big Picture, the Grand Scheme of Things, or Reality Itself... and, of course physical reality is a part of Reality itself.

*So:* reality is still reality, regardless of how advanced your LD adventures might become... at least for me.





> Do you ADCs still think reality is a thing?



This one does.  Why?  Because I wake up; and when lucid I know I will be waking up into the real world, into a place that (unlike my dreams) existed long before I did, and will exist long after I am gone.  


*Finn:*




> Hey,
> 
> So I've always heard that sensations can be much more intense in dreams. Does this mean that if someone is decent at control they could make themselves feel euphoria and bliss beyond anything imaginable in waking life? Can this be overwhelming?



First, I personally think that bliss and euphoria are way overrated.   But yes, I do believe that transcendental LD's can indeed take you to levels of consciousness that might not exist in waking life.





> Has anyone tried crawling into really random places like couches or a DCs mouth just to see where you end up?



No, but I think if you do so you will very likely end up exactly where you expect to end up.  





> Do you ever make your dreams really trippy and abstract like you're having a strong psychedelic experience?



Not on purpose -- but isn't that sort of what dreams are in the first place?  And, again, psychedelic experiences tend to be exactly what you expect them to be, should you conjure them yourself... it might be better to reserve the psychedelic stuff for NLD's, when you can believe that all this stuff is real.





> I know you all can control DCs and what not but have you been able to split your conscious and control multiple people at the same time?



I've never done this, and I'm not sure that it honestly can be done.  

Splitting your self-awareness (what I think would need to be split) into multiple separate characters might be too much of a challenge to your identity... there can really only be one "You."  Since your self-awareness cannot be split without becoming something much different than self-awareness (multiple personality disorders comes to mind), I would say that it probably cannot be done, and might not really be worth trying.

That said, if I misunderstood you and you were really asking if I've ever bounced my perception around among multiple DC's in a dream, where "I" was in one separate DC at a time (and not several at once), then yes, I've done that often, and it is definitely fascinating == especially if you are entering DC's to experience what it is like to be them (i.e., an opposite sex DC, and enemy DC, or perhaps an animal DC).

All _that_ said, aren't we already sort of splitting our consciousness (though not our self-awareness) every time we non-lucidly dream?  After all, DC's as creations of our unconscious, are handed what is arguably a piece of consciousness in order to participate in the dream plot.  So in a sense we are splitting our consciousness every time we dream, even of we're not doing it on purpose.

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## FinnTheFlobot

> *So:* reality is still reality, regardless of how advanced your LD adventures might become... at least for me.



Interesting stuff, thanks for the answers. What do you use lucid dreaming for? How often do you have them?

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## Sageous

^^ These days I use LD'ing as a tool for developing the ability to link my self-awareness with my unconscious mind and, if it exists, my soul.  I use dreaming's unique ability to create new metaphor to develop a way to communicate with both in a way that I can understand.  This would fully unite the parts of my Self (body, mind, and soul).   I also practice a non-religious form of sleep yoga, which requires fairly solid LD'ing skills as well.  I'm hoping that over the next few decades the combination of these two things (uniting B,M & S, and sleep yoga) will take me to some pretty interesting places, perhaps effectively creating a whole new Me with even newer, as yet unimagined, tools for growth available. And, since sleep yoga's primary purpose is to provide a way to mindfully navigate the path from death to whatever lies beyond (if there is anything), if all else fails I'll at least have a leg up for the final journey.

How often do I  have LD's?  Well, if you use the DV (and LaBerge, for that matter) measure of simply being aware that I am dreaming, I have them every night:  with three rarely recurring exceptions, all of my dreams have a dose of lucidity in them; sort of a side-effect of practicing the art all these years, I guess.  However, I only do the advanced stuff on Wednesdays, and even then I rarely reach the levels necessary to do the work I noted above.  I also try to set aside one or two months out of the year to do serious work more frequently (3 to 5 days per week).  So the dreams that I personally describe as lucid -- full access to self-awareness and memory -- only happen once per week, and even then the ones I really want only come a few times a year, and do so with with great effort and day work on my part.

*tl;dr:* For me advanced LD'ing is a powerful tool for developing my long-term (like, _life_-long) spiritual and psychic goals. I am always slightly lucid, but the really advanced work occurs less frequently.

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## FinnTheFlobot

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Where you're at is where I want to be someday. I have a long ways to go, that much is clear.

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## Mzzkc

Oh hey, this seems like a cool thread with some potential.

*reads*

Nope, same old conversations as always: a newcomer with legitimate experiences taking themselves/things too seriously and not really pushing stuff any further than they've gone before; Sageous talking about transcendental experiences beyond human understanding and...well...training awareness/fundamentals; Sensei being a curious cucumber spongey brain person and gathering more information to further his persistent world goals (but really after all these years I'm starting to suspect he's been planning something much more nefarious than he lets on); Hukif being generally amazing and walking to the beat of his own drum, despite people not quite "getting it"; a couple folks getting all philosophical; a few questions from newbies followed by well-practiced answers from vets; and me dropping into the party super-late with a quick, dumb, trolly quip that probably doesn't really do anyone any good.

*sigh*

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## Sageous

^^ C'est la vie, Mzzkc...

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## FryingMan

What, no reference to the fundamentals?

I wonder if I'm a newcomer or a veteran at this point?  Or just getting all philosophical?

"Be the post you want to see."

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## xxPhoebusxx

> ^^ These days I use LD'ing as a tool for developing the ability to link my self-awareness with my unconscious mind and, if it exists, my soul.  I use dreaming's unique ability to create new metaphor to develop a way to communicate with both in a way that I can understand.  This would fully unite the parts of my Self (body, mind, and soul).   I also practice a non-religious form of sleep yoga, which requires fairly solid LD'ing skills as well.  I'm hoping that over the next few decades the combination of these two things (uniting B,M & S, and sleep yoga) will take me to some pretty interesting places, perhaps effectively creating a whole new Me with even newer, as yet unimagined, tools for growth available. And, since sleep yoga's primary purpose is to provide a way to mindfully navigate the path from death to whatever lies beyond (if there is anything), if all else fails I'll at least have a leg up for the final journey.
> 
> How often do I  have LD's?  Well, if you use the DV (and LaBerge, for that matter) measure of simply being aware that I am dreaming, I have them every night:  with three rarely recurring exceptions, all of my dreams have a dose of lucidity in them; sort of a side-effect of practicing the art all these years, I guess.  However, I only do the advanced stuff on Wednesdays, and even then I rarely reach the levels necessary to do the work I noted above.  I also try to set aside one or two months out of the year to do serious work more frequently (3 to 5 days per week).  So the dreams that I personally describe as lucid -- full access to self-awareness and memory -- only happen once per week, and even then the ones I really want only come a few times a year, and do so with with great effort and day work on my part.
> 
> *tl;dr:* For me advanced LD'ing is a powerful tool for developing my long-term (like, _life_-long) spiritual and psychic goals. I am always slightly lucid, but the really advanced work occurs less frequently.



That's interesting. I always thought once you became advanced the success rate would be much higher.

In Lucid Dreaming Gateway to the Inner self. The author mentions how using MILD in his prime he would have 30 lucids a month. I'm interested in the same applications as you. To explore my self awareness and discover if there is more to life to than just what's physical.

I had hopes that I would be able to have a high level LD every night. Once I put the time in.

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## Sageous

> That's interesting. I always thought once you became advanced the success rate would be much higher....I had hopes that I would be able to have a high level LD every night. Once I put the time in.



Well, I might have accidentally misspoken there.  The bar for what I consider a success tends to move a little higher whenever I get close to it, making success as I see it more difficult, and fairly rare; I should have clarified that.  So what I deem a success might be very different from what others deem a success.  

If you reach the certainly attainable level of 30 lucids per month (don't be surprised when you find your total far higher), and you are working specifically toward achieving the hi-level stuff (and not slipping down the "fun" slope, which isn't such a terrible thing), you ought to be able to have  -- and work with -- high-level LD's frequently.  Every night might be a bit much, though: the really high-end dreams that help me "explore my self awareness and discover if there is more to life to than just what's physical," can be pretty taxing, especially on the intellectual side; you might find yourself allowing a few off days between the Big Dreams to mentally digest where you went and what you might have learned, and to make your plans for the next big dive.

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## xxPhoebusxx

Oh cool okay, that's exactly what I was hoping to hear.

I remember that being in the book as well. He ended up taking 2 years off to process after a particularly deep dive. I'm also a crossroads in a sense. The fun stuff looks like it would be good but I'm at a point where I'm more interested in discovering. But perhaps focusing on the fun stuff is needed. In order to build up the familiarity with navigating the dream space.

My experiments thus far haven't yielded much. I tried questioning a dream figure in a lucid dream if I have a soul. The answer was "no". "But you can delude yourself if that makes it easier for you"

Thanks, Sageous.

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## Wisher

Dreaming up reality, thats an interesting assumption Sageous is it true? That reality exists when all belief is taken out of the picture? To say so may cause us to disregard the paradoxical non-existant "stuffs" that lie on the outer edge of what is inherently understandable. These paradoxical counter-intuitive realms which have no reality seem to be an exciting frontier to adventure through. These concepts have an almost 'Alice in Wonderland' insanity coupled with mystery on par with the aftermath of a black hole collision. 

With such a potent level of mystery can we make such bold statements as 'reality exists'? Isnt the paradox beyond  ideas of fact vs. fiction the land where dreams begin?

But maybe by creating hard fast laws even at the most basic level, it helps us make sense of these crazy things

Also I agree, nothing wrong with the spice of fun. Or boring, or angry, any vibe for that matter. Ingredients are how great recipes are made!


Just thoughts

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## Sageous

> Dreaming up reality, thats an interesting assumption Sageous is it true? That reality exists when all belief is taken out of the picture? To say so may cause us to disregard the paradoxical non-existant "stuffs" that lie on the outer edge of what is inherently understandable. These paradoxical counter-intuitive realms which have no reality seem to be an exciting frontier to adventure through. These concepts have an almost 'Alice in Wonderland' insanity coupled with mystery on par with the aftermath of a black hole collision.



  I'm pretty sure I never made an assumption about dreaming up reality; were you thinking of someone else?  Still: 

Though creating reality from the stuff of dreams seems an excellent pursuit or possibility, I haven't yet come across using dreams to magically influence or add to waking-life reality in any concrete way (though I do admit that I spent some time looking for such magic; we all should).  That said, advanced LD'ing can certainly help you create, from the stuff of dreams, your _own presence_ in reality; and that can change a whole lot of things, for you.

Also, I believe that every realm, no matter how paradoxical or removed from our own it may prove to be, must have its own existent reality -- whether or not we humans can understand or identify that existence.  Indeed, I'm pretty sure the word "realm" itself implies the presence of reality.  





> With such a potent level of mystery can we make such bold statements as 'reality exists'?



I think it might be even more bold to assume that reality does not exist without our input or presence.  That would imply that we puny humans are possessed with truly cosmic power -- I haven't seen much evidence of that either (and again, not for not looking).





> Isnt the paradox beyond  ideas of fact vs. fiction the land where dreams begin?



Sure.  But keep in mind that this is all only paradoxical because it is unfamiliar (or, if you like, as yet uncreated).  Because of its own inherent paradoxical nature (being awake while you are asleep/being the "real" You in an unreal world that exists only in your imagination), LD'ing might be just the tool for exploring these realms (should they exist) and bring home some sense of them that makes them a little less paradoxical, and perhaps a lot less empty.





> But maybe by creating hard fast laws even at the most basic level, it helps us make sense of these crazy things



 It does... as long as those hard fast laws reflect, even if dimly, the reality they are defining, and aren't simply made up myths based on breathless imaginings.

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## Wisher

Oh, 'Dreaming up reality' was just an overture to the response that followed. Kind of like a clef in music used to set the tone of the piece.

The assumption in question was that reality exists when belief is taken out of the picture, which is possible, even likely, but true? Who knows

And yea ur right using words like realm does allude to an existance, but only because vocabulary is so limiting and does little justice to the beauty of the matter. Honestly, i'm surprised i was able to articulate those thoughts to that degree. They may sound jibberish even borderline trolling so thank you for understanding they are sincere ideas.

Glad to hear you have searched for the magic of it too! What an exciting pursuit, the grandest quest to embark on: To slam a hole in reality and mesh waking and dreaming into matrimony  ::D: 

Understandable that you set aside such an uncertain quest, curious what your search involved though if you would care to share. What were your most memorable efforts?

Also in terms of the last comment on reality & myth, they seem as inseperable as ying & yang. Breathless imaginings, smoke in mirrors, vivid delusion, resounding trance, false memory, phantom impression, waking life. 

Convincing as always, we believe the dream until lucid

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## xxPhoebusxx

I'm also interested in the most memorable efforts.

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## sloth

I guess I should join this thread.
The only thing I cannot do is conjure objects, people, or environments.
This is because twenty years ago I failed and became convinced that I couldn't. Don't bother lecturing me. I know what the problem is, but after twenty years it's hard to retrain my subconscious that it will actually work THIS time. Plus, I really have not had the need to do this. I always find countless things to do to take up my time. I can do anything in all of my dreams, even if I am not lucid. Many times I just simply find myself in that familiar where I can do anything. In these dreams, the real world seems like it was a dream.

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## gab

Welcome back, sloth!

Maybe you already tried just Knowing that required object or person is just behind the next corner, in your pocket, behind you, in that next coffee shop...

This way you don't need to conjure. It's not up to you, because those things are there simply because they always are. Not just because you want them to be. 

You don't need to conjure money/magic pills... that you always carry in your pocket or somebody that is in that cafe every time this time of the day, or something that is in the wall dispenser just behind the corner.

Sorry if this is something you already tried.

Oh, I'm gonna mention how I do it, coz it sounds crazy and not many people do it this way.

I actually practice this an other things I want to do during day. Once I really wanted to visit Tahiti. So I thought to myself while sitting at my computer "wow, look at those palm trees and beautiful tropical ocean behind me" and I looked behind me acting all surprised and amazed. It took a few tries until one time I do this in a lucid an there is Tahity right behind me.

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## sloth

> Welcome back, sloth!
> 
> Maybe you already tried just Knowing that required object or person is just behind the next corner, in your pocket, behind you, in that next coffee shop...
> 
> This way you don't need to conjure. It's not up to you, because those things are there simply because they always are. Not just because you want them to be. 
> 
> You don't need to conjure money/magic pills... that you always carry in your pocket or somebody that is in that cafe every time this time of the day, or something that is in the wall dispenser just behind the corner.
> 
> Sorry if this is something you already tried.
> ...



I have tried opening doors and turning corners, and I have had a little success.. a little. I have also been able to summon people by simply asking for them to come visit. 
For what it's worth, the doors and corners trick is the only thing that has ever worked at all for me. I've kind of learned to work around it in most cases by saying, "Well why do I need that object? I don't need money when I can just explain to the clerk that I am sloth, the dreamer and ruler of this realm. I don't need magic pills when these magic pebbles on the ground will definitely do the trick.' 
I also have found that transforming things is a bit easier than manifesting things. Last night I had a dream that I was at a party, and someone at the party wanted some green cigarettes, and he was asking me to conjure some. I knew I couldn't, so I told him to go outside and pick some random leaves and grass, and to bring it back to me, so that I could transform it for him.

I know I've said "last night" a lot today. Last night's lucid dream was ten hours long. That's kinda why I'm here today. So, a lot of things happened last night. lol

*TLDR:*
*You did make me consider something I had not, however, in that in many cases I could simply look in places where the object would normally be, or should be, rather than in random places, like I've been doing. That makes a lot of sense, and I have a strong expectation of that working. I appreciate that a lot. Thank you.*

Changing scenery/location has ALWAYS caused my dreamscape to collapse. I actually found a fully detailed teleporter wormhole portal thing in my closet one time. I wasn't even looking for one. I stepped in and got jerked very violently out of the dream. I think it has something to do with the amount of clarity/imagination it requires. However, I know that it is possible because while doing a dream check one time I thought "Am I dreaming? ... No ... But I'm about to be." because I saw the dream in the distance, coming at me through the void, and I watched an egyptian pyramid scene fly in, matrix style, and spread out around me. 

I know the mental capacity is there. It's just that it took me ten years to fully learn HOW I was controlling my dreams. I didn't realize that it was so based on conviction until I had already convinced myself that I couldn't do it. Now I have to retrain myself, and with all of the workarounds I have designed over the years, I don't get much practice. 

I appreciate the help!

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## Sensei

Hmmm... I never see much need for conjuring, I usually just teleport where I need to, if you like where you are, but a few extra things are needed, then teleport to a place that looks 100% similar, but has that thing that you need.  :tongue2:  I find that you can use teleporting to solve 99% of problems in dreams.

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## sloth

> Hmmm... I never see much need for conjuring, I usually just teleport where I need to, if you like where you are, but a few extra things are needed, then teleport to a place that looks 100% similar, but has that thing that you need.  I find that you can use teleporting to solve 99% of problems in dreams.



Wow... I wonder if this could work..

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## Sageous

^^ Yes, it could certainly work.  Teleporting (aka, resetting the dream scene to a new one that might work better for you) is a fine way to shift things toward your goals.

But, of course, you must have the expectation that any change you make will work in your favor... if you are convinced you will fail, you will fail.

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## sisyphus

I read the whole thread. I debated with myself what I might add. Instead I settled on sharing a well-known poem.

"Ozymandias" by Percy Bysshe Shelley (1818).





> I met a traveller from an antique land
> Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
> Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
> Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
> And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
> Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
> Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
> The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
> And on the pedestal these words appear:
> ...

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## AnotherDreamer

Aw man, I hate that I'm so late to this thread!

I am by no means a master/god of my dreams all the time. Sometimes, but not that often! I find the second requirement a bit odd, isn't waking yourself up intentionally one of the first things that people normally do when they realize they're in a dream during a nightmare?

I also have followed the old trend of naturals doing free-dreaming quite a lot! I liked doing it for the same reasons that I enjoy reading stories or watching movies, it's entertaining and I can often glean some insight or beauty from those dreams. No more than in NLDs though, I suppose, except I can actively shape the dream if I choose to.

Lately I've only been practicing free-dreaming in waking life though. I find practicing it like this to be a much more powerful tool for correcting my misconceptions and becoming a more compassionate being. I would highly recommend it! Waking life dream control in general is sort of where my path has taken me. I think of it this way, if I'm having a profound, beautiful, transcendental experience in a dream, why should it have to end when I wake up? My waking life world is still painted with my dreams (although perhaps a bit more subtly) and I can stay in these dreams for much longer.

It seems to me that this is a form of dream control that has the most beneficial, positive impact on myself and the world around me. That's all I had to add.  ::content:: 
Do you guys do this often as well?

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## Wisher

Actually waking dream control is a favorite!  

Its fun experimenting with and has become a study more than a hobby as of late. By no means an expert, its awe for the beauty of it (amateur by definition) that keeps me tinkering with new ways to develop waking dream control as a skill.

Free dreaming is fun too, both free and guided can be immense fun in turns.

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