# Lucid Dreaming > Dream Control >  >  Lucid Dreaming Ethics and Rules

## Leo Volont

Lucid Dreaming Ethics and Rules

The very first thing that people appear to know about Lucid Dreaming is that they can exercise absolute control over all Dream Content.  Well, of course they cant that has always been an extreme exaggeration; however, they do have enough power of suggestion to mess up and disrupt a lot of the ordinary Dream Content.

The second thing people find out about Lucid Dreaming is that the Dreaming Mind appears to do everything within its power to shake off the Dreamers Lucidity.  It is as though the Dream and the Dreamer have become opponents  Enemies to each other.  Much of the advice given out on this Page is on how to circumvent the protections that the Dreaming Mind is asserting in order to protect itself.

This is where Rules and Ethics should come into play.  I would suppose that if the Lucid Dreamer stays within certain bounds, then the Higher Dreaming Mind will discontinue with its strategies designed to discourage Lucid Dreaming, that is, not going to such lengths to disguise dreams as Reality or with throwing off Dreamers with false awakenings.  

Now, in its opposition to Lucid Dreaming, what does the Dreaming Mind most object to?  Well, is it not true that the first thing new Lucid Dreamers do is to attack and destroy The Very Same Dream Content that had been provided by the Dreaming Mind for our instruction and edification?   Dream Control is being used to obliterate Dream Content.  The Higher Mind, as author of this Dream Content, would understandably be offended by these attacks, no?  Dreams require a great deal of creative effort by Some Intelligence Somewhere, and then these young and enthusiastic Lucid Dreamers set it all to null for a laugh.  We should anticipate that the Creative Intelligence behind our Dreams is going to be annoyed. 

But if we should renounce Dream Control, then what fun would we have left?  Well, there is much more to Lucidity than pretending to do little magic tricks.  Lucidity brings the Conscious Mind into the Dream Realm for the opportunity of bringing Waking Insights to the Primitive Dreaming Self.  Everyone must have noticed that our Dreaming Behavior is sometimes not entirely identical with our Waking Behavior.  And there are some recurrent dream motifs in which the Dreamer is stuck in dysfunctional habits that keep the Dreamer from moving up and evolving to Higher Levels.  Lucidity allows for Conscious Insight to solve these problems that have been too difficult for the dreamer to solve from his own more primitive subconscious resources alone. 

And Lucidity provides the Dreamer with choices.  The Higher Mind has always been in favor of the Dreamer making good and better choices  leaving low levels to go to higher levels; walking out on bad company to find good company.  Levitating and Whirling into Higher Dream Levels is almost encouraged by the Higher Dreaming Mind.  When I have meditated in Dreams, the Higher Dream Mind has actually sent Dream Archetypes and Higher Spiritual Beings to encourage me in those activities.

So this is what we need to focus on  what Lucid Behaviors are encouraged by Our Higher Dreaming Mind as opposed to what behaviors set us at War with our Higher Dreaming Mind.  I find it appalling that instructions should be given out to Lucid Dreamers detailing methods for conducting War against the Higher Dream Mind.  We need to remember some of the horror stories we have heard of former Master Lucid Dreamers who suddenly find that they no longer have any Dream Recall  Their Dreaming Mind finally tiring of the constant battle over Dream Content and deciding to cut them off completely.  And then there are the Lucid Dreamers who develop a Total Control, but over a cutoff and simplified and almost cartoon-like Dream World, as though the Higher Dreaming Mind has abandoned them to a virtual childs playground devoid of mature dimension and metaphysical depth. 

But every set of rules are subject to exceptions.  The other week I had a dream in which a little old lady gave me a ride in her car and she had a collision and we went over a cliff.  Well, I didnt want that she should be hurt, and so I clapped my hands and stopped the descent of the car in mid air long enough to take this little old lady to safety.  But it was a minimal control over dream content.  Basically we must be guided by the clues presented by our Higher Dreaming Mind.  Are our Dreams and our Higher Dreaming Mind assisting us, or opposing us?  Remember, when you are intentionally going in to defy, disrupt and short-circuit your own Dreaming Mind, then it is the lower mind against the higher.  You know how everyone says we only use 10% of our brains.  Well, when you attempt to override the Higher Mind, it is the 10% attempting to shut down the 90%.  Is that wise or desirable?   

Be your own friend.  Dont set yourself up as your own enemy.

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## Razorback

This should be stickied, or be a tutorial.

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## Leo Volont

> _Originally posted by Razorback_
> *This should be stickied, or be a tutorial.*



yes, if everyone were to agree, but I doubt whether that will happen.

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## AirRick101

I think that's a good point.  I actually talked with Lucius about this, and he mentioned how keeping his morals was a catalyst to lucid dream fluently.  Because I guess, the way we maintain ourselves in dreams reflect our true character inside.

I often thought the exact same thing, if my conscience or dreaming mind worked to keep me off limits if I wanted to use the dreams for selfish reasons, especially sexual ones.  I even had a personal dilemma, since it was so tempting to pursue Lucid Dreams for sex and indulgence, but my conscience would always fight back (both waking and sleeping), so I was in a tug of war between my primal desires and my ethical self-image.  I hated the idea that I may be missing out.

But it's enlightened me in the sense to find out what I'm really comfortable with, and narrows down the aspects of my personality that used to be vague.

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## Leo Volont

> _Originally posted by AirRick101_
> *I think that's a good point.  I actually talked with Lucius about this, and he mentioned how keeping his morals was a catalyst to lucid dream fluently.  Because I guess, the way we maintain ourselves in dreams reflect our true character inside.
> 
> I often thought the exact same thing, if my conscience or dreaming mind worked to keep me off limits if I wanted to use the dreams for selfish reasons, especially sexual ones.  I even had a personal dilemma, since it was so tempting to pursue Lucid Dreams for sex and indulgence, but my conscience would always fight back (both waking and sleeping), so I was in a tug of war between my primal desires and my ethical self-image.  I hated the idea that I may be missing out.
> 
> But it's enlightened me in the sense to find out what I'm really comfortable with, and narrows down the aspects of my personality that used to be vague.*



I was thinking more in terms of the offense given to the Higher Mind by using an indiscriminate Dream Control to wipe out all of the Higher Mind's Creative Dream Influences.  I had not thought much about Dream Sex because, lucid or not, the primitive impulse of dreamers tends to propel them toward sex in any case.  But, now that you mention it, in ordinary dreaming, a dreamer may not be presented with the opportunity to have sex, but once becoming lucid, may actually summon up sexual partners.  It may be more of a problem then I had anticipated.  I suppose when you reach my age, one encounters a second innocense, and one becomes naive all over again. 

But, yes, if one were to use Lucid Dreaming correctly, then one would use Lucidity in order to refrain from having sex. Sex only wakes a dreamer up.  Now, there is nothing wrong with female companionship in a dream.  I often have female companions in my dreams.  I flirt with them and do my best to charm them, and in the course of a dream they are good listeners, and they provide a Voice for the Higher Mind... if the Dream itself has anything to say, to clarify any incorrect thinking on my part, as I talk, talk, talk, then the Dream Higher Mind can use one of these lady characters as its Mouth Piece of Wisdom.   We walk hand in hand, or with my arm around them.  It is all quite coozy, and I have to admit that I enjoy the company.  But I also realize that the sex act would bring it all slamming down in an instant.  It is good to know how far one can go, and go no farther.

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## Distant Clone

When I lucid dream, which isn't that often now that it's not summer, I usually tend to stay passive, only taking control if necessary. That being said, every now and again I may want to "check things off the LD checklist". 

Would it be best to apologize for being mean to the subconscious, or should I maybe ask for permission to take control of a dream and then lead.

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## Lucius

I didn't read the entire post but I think I understand what this is about, after all 'dreaming ethics' is something I have considered in the past, like AirRick said  :smiley:  

Let me tell you all what I've come to think on it:

I don't really think there is a preset set of rules when it comes down to 'dreaming ethics'. What's good for the first person it bad for the other. One person has the need to be confronted in strong, fierce way. Other's need gentle comforting and talk to solve a personal problem. We are all different invidiuals.

However, we are humans and we have hearts. When we constantly use our dreams (ourselves) for selfish goals and manipulation of a world (our own world) this might disturb us. Just as it might in real life. 
My definition of evil, negative, bad etc is a very practical one. Anything that hurts you, disturbs you, messes with you etc (or others). Its never evil because god or some other being says it is (even though he is not logically bothered). So in theory, anything can be good or evil. 

I think we all have to find a proper balance. I honestly believe that after we use our dreams for pure fun purposes, the self exploration and learning _will_ come naturally at some point. And even then we can still use our dreams for fun and fantasy  :wink2:  Why not. 

I above all think that our dreams should be positive experiences. This could mean fun, or learning experiences all the same. 

However, I do believe that a peaceful, good natured mind and less controling helps you maintain lucidity  :smiley:  But that's a different story. ^_~

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## irishcream

Well, i agree with Ethics to a certain extent, in that i don't like dreaming about anything that makes me feel guilty!
Last night was a case in point...i dreamed of someone i was 'involved' with, last year, i dreamed they'd sent me pictures of their nephew, but the pictures weren't the symbolic thing.  The symbolic thing was the subject line of the email, which read 'do you remember?'
Meaning, do i remember how good it was before we started fighting.  I woke up, and indeed i did remember.  And i hated myself for it, being as i'm now with someone else...
Sometimes, i wish we didn't have to dream about things that make us feel emotions we'd rather not...

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## dreamphoenix

I'm all for using ethics and self control in my dreams.  The problem arises when we try to figure out what "everyones" ethics should be.  I agree with Lucius, we are all different people traveling down different paths. And ethics has quite alot to do with perception. Ethics can change according to culture, religion, upbringing, etc...  Not to mention that sometimes we learn more from the things we do wrong.  The dream world is certainly an amazing place that has alot to teach us. My only hope is that each person can find what they need there.  Everyone have a great day and I'll catch you on the flip side!

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## Leo Volont

> _Originally posted by DistantClone_
> *When I lucid dream, which isn't that often now that it's not summer, I usually tend to stay passive, only taking control if necessary. That being said, every now and again I may want to \"check things off the LD checklist\". *
> 
> Would it be best to apologize for being mean to the subconscious, or should I maybe ask for permission to take control of a dream and then lead.*



No, .... I would say that you are already operating within optimum territory.  You use Control within moderation, when it seems necessary.  My objection is with people who see Control as the entire purpose and reason for Lucidity.

You may know from your experience whether the Subconscious Mind has been offended with you.  As I pointed out in my leading essay, we know that the Subconscious Mind opposes Lucid Over-Control because it militates against it, opposes it, and acts to defy and obstruct the Dreamer.  In your case, you may find that your Subconscious Mind has had no problem with you.

Also, you also have the virtue of having a Lucid Dream Checklist.  The formulation of a Lucid Dream Checklist gives the Subconscious Mind some insight into your Future Plans, and so the Facility of Mind that creates your Dreams will have a chance to provide what it already knows you want, or some compromise thereof, that will mitigate the chance that you would destroy valid Dream Content with some hideous Over-Control.  A Lucid Dreaming Checklist is like notice given to the Subconscious Mind.  If one goes too far in a Lucid Dreaming Checklist, often one will have dreams that indicate that we should adjust our direction or focus.  It IS possible to work with our Subconscious Mind.  Antagonism is not as necessary as many Lucid Dreamers tend to dictate to the Newbies -- methods of mental subversion and conflict.

So, yes, you seem to have a very good attitude.  Perhaps you could share some of your dreams that may be backing up some of these premises I have been laying out.

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## Leo Volont

> _Originally posted by Lucius_
> *I didn't read the entire post but I think I understand what this is about, after all 'dreaming ethics' is something I have considered in the past, like AirRick said  *
> 
> Let me tell you all what I've come to think on it:
> 
> I don't really think there is a preset set of rules when it comes down to 'dreaming ethics'. What's good for the first person it bad for the other. One person has the need to be confronted in strong, fierce way. Other's need gentle comforting and talk to solve a personal problem. We are all different invidiuals.
> 
> However, we are humans and we have hearts. When we constantly use our dreams (ourselves) for selfish goals and manipulation of a world (our own world) this might disturb us. Just as it might in real life. *
> My definition of evil, negative, bad etc is a very practical one. Anything that hurts you, disturbs you, messes with you etc (or others). Its never evil because god or some other being says it is (even though he is not logically bothered). So in theory, anything can be good or evil. *
> ...



Please, ... while we are discussing situational ethics... never tell an author that you did not read his whole book or essay.  Believe me, authors never ask, always expecting the worst -- that their books lay about half read and collecting dust.  But it seems gratuitious to verify their anxiety by telling them that you could not read a full page.  It is a secret that you might well have kept.

Now, regarding your comments which come down to the idea that everything will work out in the end; that all this Control is just in good fun.   This seems to be what you Hope and not what you know.  What we KNOW is that the Subconscious Mind actively opposes and attempts to obstruct Lucid Over-Control.  We have heard from dreamers who, after having attained Lucid Mastery, suddenly report the total loss of 'Dream Priveleges'.  So, what we know is that the Subconscious Mind does not share your hopes and views that wholesale attacks and predations against Dream Content and the Subconscious Mind, because it is all in good fun, is not really a problem.

For some people rape is fun.  Homicide is fun for certain serial killers.  What kind of a Culture do we live in when people brush aside ethical considerations for the sake of fun.

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## Leo Volont

Perhaps I misnamed my leading Essay here.  The suggestion of "Ethics" is bringing out in nearly everybody this FEELING for moral right and wrong within the confines of society.  I am hearing alot about "I AM NOT HURTING ANYBODY, SO WHAT IS THE HARM".  

I suppose what I was thinking of the harm being done to the Subconscious Mind and the Collective Consciousness -- all those Mechanisms behind Dream Content that act to oppose Lucidity in order to defend against Lucid Overcontrol.  Where I see CONFLICT I came to believe that I was witnessing basically an Ethical Problem.

But I should have anticipated this flood of warm fuzzy misunderstandings... of people who could see Ethical Discussions only in terms of sunday school morality or in legal terms. 

So, anyway, maybe we should focus on my ideas here as being intended help us all understand that when we do things which our Subconscious Mind actively opposes, that it must be because it feels that some harm is being done to it.  In that regard, we should consider what we can do in order to cease our offenses, and how we can do Lucid Dreaming without doing damage to our relations to our own Subconscious Mind and Collective Consciousness.

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## Leo Volont

> _Originally posted by irishcream_
> *Well, i agree with Ethics to a certain extent, in that i don't like dreaming about anything that makes me feel guilty!
> Last night was a case in point...i dreamed of someone i was 'involved' with, last year, i dreamed they'd sent me pictures of their nephew, but the pictures weren't the symbolic thing. *The symbolic thing was the subject line of the email, which read 'do you remember?'
> Meaning, do i remember how good it was before we started fighting. *I woke up, and indeed i did remember. *And i hated myself for it, being as i'm now with someone else...
> Sometimes, i wish we didn't have to dream about things that make us feel emotions we'd rather not...*



Hi Irish,

Hmmmmm.

You are now with someone else.  But you do know what they say about 'Rebound Relationships".   Anybody who gets involved with somebody who has just broken off a Major Relationship should realize he is just catching you on the Rebound.  These things hardly ever last.  I'm sure he will not take it personally if you tell him that you are glad for the comfort you received when you were so vulnerable, but now, that you are recovered and are no longer among the walking wounded and the battle-traumatized, you think you should move on.... or back to the old boyfriend whom you seem to miss.

Speaking of remembering... do you remember why you broke up in the first place.  Who did what to whom.... just think about it.   Was it important, and if not, can the damage be undone.  Your dream would suggest the possibility of a rapprochement.

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## Leo Volont

> _Originally posted by dreamphoenix_
> *I'm all for using ethics and self control in my dreams. *The problem arises when we try to figure out what \"everyones\" ethics should be. *I agree with Lucius, we are all different people traveling down different paths. And ethics has quite alot to do with perception. Ethics can change according to culture, religion, upbringing, etc... *Not to mention that sometimes we learn more from the things we do wrong. *The dream world is certainly an amazing place that has alot to teach us. My only hope is that each person can find what they need there. *Everyone have a great day and I'll catch you on the flip side!*



So... like Lucius... you didn't read the lead essay either. 

The Point is that Lucid Over Control is interpreted by the Subconscious Mind as an Attack upon its integrity and higher purposes.  We know this because the Subconscious Mind repeatedly attempts to defend itself against Lucid Over Control.   Most of our "Techniques" are more or less Battle Strategies for Defeating the Subconscious Mind.  And very few of us have been able to view this War we are conducting in Ethical Terms.  Anyway, not you.  What are you putting forth but some argument for Moral Relativism -- that Morality is a private affair that only need to involve each person's consciense... or lack of conscience.   Indeed, if we did not already have an overly permissive and degenerate Society, you could have been in the intellectual avante guarde for getting us there.   I particularly find striking your comment that it is so instructive to do wrong.  No remorse.  You simply find Evil to be a Learning Experience.  Yes, there is a certain truth there, but with essentially Good People what is learned by committing Wrong is that one must carry about a load of painful remorse and guilt for a lifetime, and maybe beyond that.    But perhaps you are Avante Guarde enough to be beyond all that -- that something becomes wrong only when it has suddenly become inconvenient... when you get caught.  You have no Moral View of Life, but only cut through it all trying to find the path of least resistance.   But isn't that approximately the same amoralism practiced by any worm.

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## dreamphoenix

I don't appreciate your "opinion" leo.  Perhaps you should really listen to what people say before you judge them and drag their names in the mud. But I forgive you!

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## Leo Volont

> _Originally posted by dreamphoenix_
> *I don't appreciate your \"opinion\" leo.  Perhaps you should really listen to what people say before you judge them and drag their names in the mud. But I forgive you!*



I did listen.  You were apparently able to empty your entire mind in something less than fifty words.  Maybe you would be understood better if you could manage to express yourself more fully and completely.  But I read what you wrote and commented appropriately upon it.  I'm sorry that you do not 'approciate' your grade.  

I'm sure that if you ever grow older and wiser then you will someday agree with me and regret that you ever thought as you do now, and then you will not be worried about forgiving me, but forgiving yourself.

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## Distant Clone

About Leo's comments: I really don't have a checklist, but if a problem is bothering me...I'll ask my subconscious what to do about it, and in a couple nights it usually gets back to me. I have at least two specific examples in mind, I'll dig out of my DJ later.

I've just come to a conclusion...let me spill it out. Here's a couple of things to consider:[list]Social status: I really think we are almost at the bottom of the spiral, as a society we've almost retrogressed from third dimension back to second.[*]To ascend, ultimately to the eight dimension, one needs to be able to show pure intentions, good choices, *no negative thoughts*.[*]Most think that dreams are ungoverned, no one's watching, what you do in dreams does not count, so one should fulfill themself.[list]. People feel held back, and see dreams as a gateway into unrestricted freedom that "they've earned". The immediate line of defense is the subconscious mind, there to monitor and ensure you behave. 

Now think about it...what would be the best way to periodically measure if someone has positive thoughts? Should one be constrained, told what not to do, or should one be let loose and have their actions speak for themself? 

What is a dream? It is a regular, temporary trial in a higher dimension. You are in a perfect test environment to show your motives. You are without your physical body, which is unnecessary. You are being reduced to your minimum, truer self. Taking this opportunity and trying to undermine and overthrow their subconscious mind is a shame. It is there to encourage positive behavior. Yet people want to circumvent this so they can have more power, more freedom, and enable themself appease their own greedy agenda.

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## AirRick101

But at the same time, I think excessive elaboration and essay-format expression in every opinion even has its limits, coming off as pretentious and snotty, but not to say that you are, Leo, I wouldn't know.  Not for the author's sake, but for readers so they would have less chance of failing to listen.

I once really identified with Lucius' opinion, believing that all morals are relative, and maybe they are.   But I've encountered enough situations where I wish not to sympathize with the offender or criminal.  The majority of people don't find rape and murder fun (due to a healthy respect for the golden rule), and our overall moral agreements are what we actually label "absolute" morals, and I sure myself would not deviate from those absolute morals, unless I'm vulnerable enough to succumb to those diabolical urges.  

I often get confused as to whether morals are socially conditioned or absolutely inspired by God in the Bible.  Both have holes in their plots.  But even if they are merely passed down, people just like us discovered what morals must be enforced and realized to better control situational patterns in human conflict in later generations.  Morals cannot be forced fed, only learned from within. (as is everything, really)

I believe we have an inherit sense of interconnectedness, and do not really want to hurt another, if not overwhelmed with selfish issues of vengeance.  But that too is moral, the sense of justice, we just don't all know how to balance it out.

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## AirRick101

I myself have a sturdy and stubborn conscience that does not easily budge to reason.  I know, guilt is one of my prevailant emotions.  But yet it still perplexes me how others can do certain offenses and feel no remorse, pornography or anything sexual at all being the most controversial.  People say it doesn't hurt anyone, yet I know somewhere in me that that is not enough to make it ok to do.  I've tested their theory, seeing if "getting away with it" is enough, but no, it still remains a stain in my conscience that remains extremely discouraging.

But addressing the source of our dreams as the "dreaming mind" is putting a given into the equation that not everyone agrees with.  To address what you currently are automatically forces us to discuss something supernatural.  It's not that I disagree.  I know people who have extreme control over dreams and do everything they want, and they are not revoked of certain privileges.  Does this mean the dreaming mind doesn't pick on them as much?

Ok, I'm feeling kind of stupid now because I'm elaborating myself, but I usually do not, because people in general dislike to read much, which is why I rarely do it.  Just a little more...

I somewhat agree that our so-called techniques are "battle strategies" for outsmarting the dreaming mind.  I can tell they are superficial methods, but it's all we seem to have at our disposal now.  The word technique itself implies a cold series and patterns of action to reach a certain goal.  But even so, they are not just for battling, but are aimed at opening up our awareness to our dreaming mind cuz we don't know what's going on.  The fact that our society does not prize lucid dreaming enough makes us lose sight of influencing our dreams.

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## dreamphoenix

> _Originally posted by Leo Volont_
> *
> 
> I did listen. *You were apparently able to empty your entire mind in something less than fifty words. *Maybe you would be understood better if you could manage to express yourself more fully and completely. *But I read what you wrote and commented appropriately upon it. *I'm sorry that you do not 'approciate' your grade. *
> 
> I'm sure that if you ever grow older and wiser then you will someday agree with me and regret that you ever thought as you do now, and then you will not be worried about forgiving me, but forgiving yourself.*



Why should you feel the need to "grade" someone elses opinion leo.  And its quite mean to say someone tried to "empty their entire mind" on a dream views forum post. Why is it that you always think you have the one true correct answer.  In my experience we all have a long way to go before we can judge each other.  Maybe with a little less negativity in your life (just my opinion by the way) you wouldn't feel the need to put everyone else down so often.  Just a thought!  But since you have the upper hand in arguing because of your huge intelect and vocabulary, I wont be arguing with you anymore on this post.  God Bless!

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## Leo Volont

> _Originally posted by DistantClone_
> *About Leo's comments: I really don't have a checklist, but if a problem is bothering me...I'll ask my subconscious what to do about it, and in a couple nights it usually gets back to me. I have at least two specific examples in mind, I'll dig out of my DJ later.
> 
> I've just come to a conclusion...let me spill it out. Here's a couple of things to consider:[list]Social status: I really think we are almost at the bottom of the spiral, as a society we've almost retrogressed from third dimension back to second.[*]To ascend, ultimately to the eight dimension, one needs to be able to show pure intentions, good choices, no negative thoughts.[*]Most think that dreams are ungoverned, no one's watching, what you do in dreams does not count, so one should fulfill themself.[list]. People feel held back, and see dreams as a gateway into unrestricted freedom that \"they've earned\". The immediate line of defense is the subconscious mind, there to monitor and ensure you behave. *
> 
> Now think about it...what would be the best way to periodically measure if someone has positive thoughts? Should one be constrained, told what not to do, or should one be let loose and have their actions speak for themself? *
> 
> What is a dream? It is a regular, temporary trial in a higher dimension. You are in a perfect test environment to show your motives. You are without your physical body, which is unnecessary. You are being reduced to your minimum, truer self. Taking this opportunity and trying to undermine and overthrow their subconscious mind is a shame. It is there to encourage positive behavior. Yet people want to circumvent this so they can have more power, more freedom, and enable themself appease their own greedy agenda.*



Pretty good essay!

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## Leo Volont

> _Originally posted by AirRick101_
> * *But even if they are merely passed down, people just like us discovered what morals must be enforced and realized to better control situational patterns in human conflict in later generations. *Morals cannot be forced fed, only learned from within. (as is everything, really)
> 
> *



Actually morals can be force fed.  History shows that a Barbarian People can be largely 'civilized' given 3 steady generations of strict enforcement to rule.  Apparently that is enough to get a 'people' used to tolerating Civilized Institutions.  More generations of Civilization begin to fixe Civilization genetically -- the genetic stock that thrives most with Civilization stand out as evolutionary successes, while those who don't are presumably hanged before they are allowed to breed.

One can see Civilized Peoples now in China. Some in Japan.  In Latin Europe we have people getting used to Civilization, and can see the contrast between them and the Barbaric Teutonic Tribes, Angels, Norsemen, Slavs, that is all the Peoples that had no benefit of Roman or Hellenic Civilizing influences.   And then in Northern Africa, where you can distinguish between the original Egyptian bloodlines and that of the recent Mongolian Invaders, we can also discern a Civilized Temperament from that of the rawer barbarian style of blood. 

Now, the lines between Civilization and Barbarism is sometimes blurred.  Remember that the most successful Barbarians were able to organize successful Invasions.  Any successful execution of organized and cooperative behavior, even if it is aimed toward rape and pillage, is a step toward Civilization, where the primary virtue is Cooperation and where the payoff is in reliable Social Discipline.    Right now the World's Populations and Traditions are a toss up between Civilized Traditions and the Traditions of Disciplined and Organized Barbarism.  The Disciplined Barbarians would be perfectly Civilized, if they were not so oriented toward being Predatory against other Cultures and Societies.  For instance, America would be considered Civilized, except that they seem to be militating toward provoking another World War.... it seems the Military Industrial Complex insists upon having a Super Power enemy.  I'm afraid after America finally 'pacifies' Islam, it will turn its guns on China.  America's Barbarian Frame of Reference simply cannot discern any other political alternative.  

I would hope that Spirituality could speed up the Civilizing Process.  Taking 3 generations seems quite time consuming.  But for spirituality to have any significant effect, it would have to become 'popular'... it would have to become a popular fad.  Stranger things have happened.

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## Lucius

> _Originally posted by Leo Volont_
> *
> 
> Please, ... while we are discussing situational ethics... never tell an author that you did not read his whole book or essay. *Believe me, authors never ask, always expecting the worst -- that their books lay about half read and collecting dust. *But it seems gratuitious to verify their anxiety by telling them that you could not read a full page. *It is a secret that you might well have kept.
> 
> Now, regarding your comments which come down to the idea that everything will work out in the end; that all this Control is just in good fun. * This seems to be what you Hope and not what you know. *What we KNOW is that the Subconscious Mind actively opposes and attempts to obstruct Lucid Over-Control. *We have heard from dreamers who, after having attained Lucid Mastery, suddenly report the total loss of 'Dream Priveleges'. *So, what we know is that the Subconscious Mind does not share your hopes and views that wholesale attacks and predations against Dream Content and the Subconscious Mind, because it is all in good fun, is not really a problem.
> 
> For some people rape is fun. *Homicide is fun for certain serial killers. *What kind of a Culture do we live in when people brush aside ethical considerations for the sake of fun.*



I apologise for not reading your entire post/essay, that was rather rude of me. Next time, I will surely read everything or not reply at all. Sorry   :wink2:  

Regarding your comments:

My definition of 'fun' does not include rape and murder, thank you. I again stress that what I mean by having fun is doing things that make you happy but not involve hurting others, or yourself. I know you spoke critically before about the idea of 'it doesn't hurt anybody, so what's wrong with it?' but this is what I stick to   :smiley:  I see no logical reason, both rational, emotional and spiritual for things that don't hurt anybody, to be wrong. There is nothing wrong with making yourself and/or others happy (and not bothering anybody in the process), this seems logical and sensible. 

Now there might be some 'higher factors' included, but however, I would consider these factors unknown because we cannot claim to know the absolute truth. Therefor I stick to the logical reason I mentioned before. We must have fun, before we can get to the serious stuff, we're all children before we become adults  :smiley:  It's a natural process. And even adults still sometimes remain children inside, of course   ::D:  

And yes, I still believe morals, good and evil are relative and not absolute. But even so, that is no reason to not be true to your own perception of them. Murder is wrong to me, even though I know some people consider it otherwise (cultures, individuals).

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## Leo Volont

> _Originally posted by Lucius_
> *
> 
> I apologise for not reading your entire post/essay, that was rather rude of me. Next time, I will surely read everything or not reply at all. Sorry * *
> 
> Regarding your comments:
> 
> My definition of 'fun' does not include rape and murder, thank you. I again stress that what I mean by having fun is doing things that make you happy but not involve hurting others, or yourself. I know you spoke critically before about the idea of 'it doesn't hurt anybody, so what's wrong with it?' but this is what I stick to * I see no logical reason, both rational, emotional and spiritual for things that don't hurt anybody, to be wrong. There is nothing wrong with making yourself and/or others happy (and not bothering anybody in the process), this seems logical and sensible. *
> 
> ...



Actually, one cannot often read 'everything'... the mistake is in telling authors that you haven't read it.  Often you can read enough to get by.  In good essay writing, and auther will present his peroration, that , what he wants to tell you, then come all the details and explanations, and then he should sum up with a conclusion regarding the ramifications of what he told you.  So if you read the start, and glance through the middle (to check for obvious silliness) and then read the end, you should be equipped well enough to reply without being caught too terribly short.

Now, about 'fun' and your whole aesthetic way of looking at things.   yes, indeed, nothing is wrong with harmless fun, if it doesn't hurt anybody.  But that would take an awful lot of cyrstal ball gazing to determine whether our apparently innocent actions are hurting anybody.   For instance, in the early 80's almost all of the Car Manufacturors found that they could make more money selling hi priced luxury models -- it would not hurt the rich people to pay more for cars with harmless bells and whistles.  However, less attention went into development in the lesser cars, forcing people in that market to either pay more for safe vehicles or buy less safe vehicles.  You 'fun' market inflated the price of what was minimally safe automobiles.  Thousands of People were Killed.   Sound like harmless fun to you?

Besides, that was not my point.  I was talking about Attacking the Subconscious Mind with an invidious use of Over-Control while you were defending some hippy sense of nihilistic amorality that was not spoken about by anybody but yourself.  Perhaps if you had mentioned how you thought it was connected -- that it harms nobody else when you take a flamethrower to your own Subconscious Mind; however, I would have answered that you cannot really delineate where your own personal Subconscious Mind ends and Everybody else's Collective Consciousness begins.  When you plunge a knife into your own Subconscious Mind perhaps everybody feels the pain.

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## Seeker

> _Originally posted by Leo Volont_
> *So this is what we need to focus on  what Lucid Behaviors are encouraged by Our Higher Dreaming Mind as opposed to what behaviors set us at War with our Higher Dreaming Mind.*



Leo, I finally found the time to read your post.  I've quoted one of your comments above as a source of discussion.

You ask what lucid behaviours are encouraged by our higher dreaming mind.  Let's look at it from a different angle.  What lucid behaviours are abhorrent to the higher dreaming mind?  I know very little of the higher dreaming mind of which you speak, so I will talk about a simpler and more mundane subject  ::D: 

One point I've often raised in the past is that there is conciousness.  This same conciousness is present both when awake and when lucid dreaming.  Being that there is one conciousness, why do people, when lucid dreaming, attempt to violate the morals they uphold while awake?  There is no difference!  Conciousness just is.  I know personally, lucid dreaming is a GRAND test of ones morals and ethics.

Think about it, you are in a "consequence free" environment.  Before you take exception to that statement, let me ellaborate.  When I say consequence free, I am talking about legal consequences.  You will not be placed in jail for killing someone, your wife or significant other will never know that you cheated on her with three dream women.  

There are consequences though in violating your morals within lucid dreams.  You mentioned decreased dream recall and the loss of lucidity, perhaps this is so, I really don't know.  I postulate that the constant violation of morals in a lucid dream will eventually bring decay to your morals and ethics while awake, being that conciousness is.  We see this erosion often in waking life, it is a slippersy slope.  Let's say you cheat a little on your income tax return one year and get away with it.  Next year, isn't it much easier to cheat again, and perhpas to push the envelope a little and cheat more?

I applaud those that have the strength of character to uphold their morals when lucid dreaming.  It says much about them.

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## AirRick101

I sure wish I took that into account earlier.  But I always feel it's futile to try to uphold morals, even in my dreams, because karma will bite me in the butt and just make me fall again by reminding what I did before.

I didn't really intend to be immoral in my dreams, although I was open to it.  If I was going to be moral, I'd want it to be part of my developed personality, not struggling day in and out against some force within me and making me miserable.  And I wasn't so immoral either in waking life for most of it.  Even evil thoughts were caught and trialed by my conscience when I least expect the subtle tendencies of it.  It'd make me a worm to blame others, but I regret ever having been influenced negatively by other people in my later life.

I agree that consequences are too often shallowly narrowed down to legalities postulated by government.  Those are at best, superficial and only on the surface.  Consequences involve every turn of cause and effect, all the way from physical reactions to moral shifting.  I had not seen lucid dreaming as a Grand test of morals, and I wish I considered that earlier.  I suppose the way we treat ethics and morals in dreams is associated with how much spirituality and interconnect we consider dreams to be with other places in life.

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## Leo Volont

I like AirRick's application of the Law of Karma upon what Seeker had to say.  It makes me wonder whether if I had access to a wide demographic of Dream Diaries whether I could point out a solid correlation between Moral and Caring behavior and Spiritual Ascension and Etherealization.  I suppose I would find that Moral Dreamers would rise Higher to a generally Brighter level of Dream Scenes, where the low lifes would gradually sink into darkness and nightmares.

I don't think it is anything anybody must really learn the hard way.  As I have been pointing out, the Higher Dreaming Mind is endlessly pointing out the Way.   We don't even need to resort to Dream Interpretation much of the time, as our Dream Guides will tell us what we need to know in almost directly literal terms.

In perhaps my first Spiritual Dream, a Lady appeared to me half way up a very steep and tiered Mountain.  She looked at me and told me, "Only those at the bottom cannot go to the top".  So all it takes is just one small grain of morality to keep us off the absolute bottom, and then we can have some hope that we can rise progressively upward.   But look at some of the entries on this Web Page, and it is easy to suppose that this Sand of Morality might just be as rare as diamonds.

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## AirRick101

I have to say, I enjoy being endorsed by somebody with as dense of a knowledge bank as you, Leo.  Thanks.

I overall didn't think about trying to live a moral life, and that's usually when ironically, I was most moral as a byproduct.  Trying to be good usually makes me worse.  The more you try to be good, the more you affirm to yourself that you are indeed not good.

The assertion that I should be only entices me to be offended of the idea that I am not good enough.  And trying to live a good life is ultimately futile, I believe.  Just note that I say "trying."  A lot of it is aimed in pleasing others.  When I tried to be, it got me in a tie between having self-respect or getting other's respect at the expense on my own.  The more I try to be good, the more the "ying/yang" in me begins to argue and conflict.  It only arouses more conflict. 

Neither does it mean I try to be bad.  Stopping the motivation to be good does not mean being bad by default.  Like when Lucius said morals are relative...doesn't necessarily mean we go commit crimes and rape and murder people.  It's merely an inquisitive introspection of why things are the way they are.  That's why I say I'm open to being immoral, but do not insist on being that way.

t really depends on your terminology.  And I know lot of people don't agree to this type of opinion.

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## Dangeruss

I finally read this whole thread. I could have spent that time doing all my homework, but... nah.

Here's something else to consider: I haven't had a nightmare since I was a small child, but that doesn't mean that I haven't had bad dreams. Until about a year ago my dreams were often plagued with terrible things. You know, murder, violence, lying, stealing. However, I was the one doing all the bad things. My victims were out to get me in the first place, but the dreams were still violent and vulgar, and while these things were happening my dream mood was excited, happy. I felt strong.

Now you all think I'm crazy, but let me explain a little more. I'm very in touch with every corner of my concious mind, and I know that I'm not violent at all. I've come to the conclusion that during this point in my life, my dream self served as a foil for my waking self. Everything that I hated while awake, I became while I slept. That, and my mind was warped by video games.

I don't dream like that anymore.

Now, hopefully this example has shed some light on the argument. I've never had a violent thought in a lucid dream, nor have I ever pursued sex. I just have better things to do. But, supposing I did, who is to say that I would be doing any more damage to my subconcious than it would do to itself? If someone has very troubled dreams, is it ok to control them in order to reprogram the undoubtedly troubled subconcious? Now, surely the word "reprogram" is sending up red flags for you, leo, but consider it. If a conciously calm and collected person has a subconcious that offers him violent and debaucherous dreams, can LDing be a way to convince the subconcious that there's something else, something better to think about? I say with relative confidence that it can be done peacefully, without a rift between the concious and subconcious. I've already experimented with reprogramming my personality, namely in the way of eliminating fear. I've had great results, any my subconcious shows no sign of rejecting the new personality. Should I continue? Can dream control be a way to improve one's subconcious and bring peace to all levels of his mind? Is there something inherently vulgar about a mind that's been mastered by that concious 10%, or is it possible to influence, without stepping on the toes of, the subconcious?

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## Leo Volont

> _Originally posted by AirRick101_
> *I have to say, I enjoy being endorsed by somebody with as dense of a knowledge bank as you, Leo. *Thanks.
> 
> I overall didn't think about trying to live a moral life, and that's usually when ironically, I was most moral as a byproduct. *Trying to be good usually makes me worse. *The more you try to be good, the more you affirm to yourself that you are indeed not good.
> 
> The assertion that I should be only entices me to be offended of the idea that I am not good enough. *And trying to live a good life is ultimately futile, I believe. *Just note that I say \"trying.\" *A lot of it is aimed in pleasing others. *When I tried to be, it got me in a tie between having self-respect or getting other's respect at the expense on my own. *The more I try to be good, the more the \"ying/yang\" in me begins to argue and conflict. *It only arouses more conflict. *
> 
> Neither does it mean I try to be bad. *Stopping the motivation to be good does not mean being bad by default. *Like when Lucius said morals are relative...doesn't necessarily mean we go commit crimes and rape and murder people. *It's merely an inquisitive introspection of why things are the way they are. *That's why I say I'm open to being immoral, but do not insist on being that way.
> 
> t really depends on your terminology. *And I know lot of people don't agree to this type of opinion.*



Yeah, what you are expressing here is the Saint's argument for Spiritual Humility.  The attempt to attain to a Moral Perfection pitts the limited self against what approaches an Absolute Spiritual Ideal.  Humility becomes the only way the Saint can still function in the midst of the inevitable frustrations.  

But we do need to differentiate between Humility and Complacency.  Paulist Doctrine, accepted by the mainstream of the Christian Community, with its dogma of Original Sin quite insists upon Moral Complacency, calling it Salvation by Faith.   The Religious Orders always knew, or intuited, that Paulism was off-target, and that is why the Religious Orders set themselves apart -- choosing to engage in Forward and Upward looking Moral and Spiritual Endeavor, tempered with Humility.

When I was young, I thought perhaps there was one magic Stage of Spiritual Development that one could attain, and be Realized, Enlightened, Liberated.  Words were evoked such as 'Nirvana', 'Satori', 'Samadhi'.  And, yes, while I still suppose there is that One Veil that one must go through to get from Illusion to Reality, it remains that even after one has become one of the Enlightened, the trajectory doesn't flatten out, and the spiritual evolution continues even on the Other Side.  We see this in the Stories of the Enlightened Saints, of all the Higher Religions.  They continued to be goal oriented.  Perhaps a few moved their focus from themselves to their Communities, but in so doing, the object for their Humility ceased to be entirely themselves, when they had their Followers and Disciples to be embarrassed for.

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## Leo Volont

> _Originally posted by Dangeruss_
> *
> 
>  If someone has very troubled dreams, is it ok to control them in order to reprogram the undoubtedly troubled subconcious? Now, surely the word \"reprogram\" is sending up red flags for you, leo, but consider it. If a conciously calm and collected person has a subconcious that offers him violent and debaucherous dreams, can LDing be a way to convince the subconcious that there's something else, something better to think about? I say with relative confidence that it can be done peacefully, without a rift between the concious and subconcious.*



Yes!

Notice that when I object to Dream Control, I usually hedge by calling it 'Over-Control'.  I realize that the utility inherent in Lucid Dreaming involves the conscious execution of certain choices made in Dreams, and there is no getting around it, that executing such moral choices is a form of "Control".  I suppose the reason the Higher Self has given us the Gift of Lucidity is for the very purpose of being able to bring Waking Moral and Spiritual Insights to the more Primitive Dream Self -- it allows for the Integration of the Conscious and Subconscious Minds. 

So, although I speak of Rules and Ethics, it is still rather a matter for discussion about where any solid line could be drawn.  When does Lucidity stop helping and become destructive?   Although I can't describe, in principal, exactly where that line begins, I do have a sense for what is 'way over the line', and that seems a good enough place for many of us to start.  What seems to be 'way over the line' would be to, at the onset of Lucidity, simply wipe out all Subconscious Dream Content to replace it with a fantacy that comes totally out of Conscious Invention.  There can be no Integration between the Conscious and Subconscious Minds when the Subconscious is totally suppressed.

Of course, I worry that my own choices to move to a Higher Dream Scene may be 'crossing my own line' -- that in leaving lower dreams, that I may be circumventing certain experiences that my Subconscious Mind really would desire me to go through.  But in these considerations, I maintain a watchfullness on my Dream Content, so that I may discern the messages of my Subconscious.  Dreams will let you know whether or not you are going in the right direction.

This is why I am alarmed when people conduct Workshops on shorting out  and defeating all of  the Subconscious Minds strategies for telling us that we are abusing Lucid Dreaming.  False Awakenings are not something to dodge and then laugh about.  After a False Awakening we need to ack ourselves why our Higher Mind thought it necessary to suppress Lucidity.

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## bzteam

> _Originally posted by Seeker_
> *
> 
> One point I've often raised in the past is that there is conciousness. *This same conciousness is present both when awake and when lucid dreaming. *Being that there is one conciousness, why do people, when lucid dreaming, attempt to violate the morals they uphold while awake? *There is no difference! *Conciousness just is. *I know personally, lucid dreaming is a GRAND test of ones morals and ethics.
> *



Yes but you're assuming that if one did have the dream-like powers in real life that they would automatically refrain from using them to harm another person, especially when they could get away with it.  I actually think having those dreaming abilities makes it easier for people to use them whichever they wish.

Leo, interesting arguments here.  You're string of logic makes sense, but is dependant on your interpretation or even assumption that the dream mind has an emotional reaction against the dreamer for the things he/she does, and can therefore 'cut the dreamer off' of dreaming and recall abilities.  This may not be the case at all.

There are many reasons why even a master LD can be cut off from LDs.  Reasons like becoming careless and lazy about reality checks, journals;  poor sleeping habits, or trying too hard.

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## Distant Clone

> _Originally posted by Leo Volont_
> *So, yes, you seem to have a very good attitude.  Perhaps you could share some of your dreams that may be backing up some of these premises I have been laying out.*



Typically, I will ask for advice, and that will manifest itself in a dream. Here are the two examples I pulled from my dream journal, both have a similar dream symbol (the red shirt). Both ask advice about women.

Reply 14 Dream 4 and Reply 24 Dream 2

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## kimpossible

Having read the entire thread, I've not seen anyone suggest that it's not any consciousness "fighting against you" but simply the highly ephemeral nature of dreams.  That the mind naturally and rightly drifts - and that any excessive control exercise simply increases this drift through dedicating "processing cycles" to maintaining the near-details at the expense of the far.

I guess sheeple would need to be told and led even in their dreams.  Gotta keep 'em under your thumb some how.

Myself - I'm more into plotting any limitations through exercising applied tests.  I really couldn't care what the sheeple dream about as anything more than a plot on a scattergraph.  I don't lose sleep (pun intended) trying to figure out how to superimpose my morality upon their dreams...

Other than fear excentuated and reinforced (the sharpest tool of all religions that actively recruit ((that I've observed))) - I'm not sure exactly how you're going to practically enforce said rules, however.


Good work if you can get it, though.

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## NullAshton

Can there be any harm in you having fun in your lucid dreams? Morals still extend into dreams, but what's wrong with imagining a race, or maybe put yourself into your favorite game? Just let your imagination run wild, put yourself into your own little universe.

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## AirRick101

Kim has some point.

Speaking in terms of a dreaming mind's ethical categorization to be the reason why we don't lucid dream is incomplete.  It's plausible, but does not apply to everybody.  I only sought to understand everything, but not necessarily believe.

The release of moral constraint within the dream can be extremely alleviating to our being, considering if we were having a struggle with ourselves in waking life.  A pseudo-Freudian concept, that whatever is superimposed in real life is compensated for in the dreams where there is drastically lower resistance.  Trying to force that upon dreams is at best an artificial attempt as long as it doesn't reflect one's true intentions.  Everybody's mind is independently different, even if not totally separate.  

I myself think you cannot always draw a line on what is moral or what is not.  To get everything would drive someone nuts.  Yeah, sure, you can draw the line at how hurting others is it....but if you consider both specifics and holistic views, you need to be open to all possibilities to be at peace with yourself.  Trying not to hurt others is sometimes a fallen concept because we do not truly know what goes on in other people's mind, and how to consider short term vs long term consequence of our moral or immoral actions.  Everything may indeed come in full circle.
It's impossible not be hurting someone else in some way, and it's also impossible not to be helping someone else in some way.  It's very indirect.  Everything is interconnected, there are dualities in the world, and to touch all of them, I feel, leads to extra enlightenment.

I don't mean to make any big claims, but I am to express what I feel is logical.

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## Ex Nine

First, that was a great post, Leo. You explained things in a way that really opened some doors for me in my thoughts.

Ethics is the study of the road to happiness. Some of you in this thread appear to be forgetting that, or have not learned that in the first place. It's an unfortunate accident that the word itself has been used as a substitute for some implicit standard ethical system. Ethics is not a static discipline, no matter what anybody says. That is just a factual statement. It constantly has new ideas and new life breathed into it.(*)

It's no different for dream ethics.

I once was an expert, "master" lucid dreamer. There were experiences where I was in "absolute control" for all intents and purposes. And then something happened that caused me profound trepidation over the years. I am not quite sure exactly what started it - I have many ideas, and there were many events - but I never quite had as many pleasent experiences and they were never as easy. The dream seemed relentless in keeping control from me. At one point I had suspected I was under control of a demon - probably as a result of going to new age type dream forums to seek advice!

But reading this post helped me remember that I actually did have a kind of dream ethics at the beginning. My goals were exploration and creativity. The goals did not become "control" until some type of catalyst. Again, I'm not sure exactly what it was, but the fact that High School is organized very much like a prison might have had something to do with it.

So just wanted to say thank you. I look forward to more rational and interesting discussions here at Dream Views.


(*) It's worth nothing that, however, is not itself a proof of ethical relativism - or that conflicting ethical systems are simultaneously valid.

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## Awhislyle

Although I feel that I can do whatever I want in my dreams because they are mine and no one elses. I did have a lucid dream last night where I made a DC mad and I went out of my way to say sorry, I guess some of my morals still exist even in my dreams lol.

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## Ex Nine

> _Originally posted by Awhislyle_
> *Although I feel that I can do whatever I want in my dreams because they are mine and no one elses. I did have a lucid dream last night where I made a DC mad and I went out of my way to say sorry, I guess some of my morals still exist even in my dreams lol.*



I suppose it may seem strange, but ethical/moral studies do not ignore the treatment of the self by the self by any means. Theoretically, you could be the last person on Earth and have no chance of meeting another human being, and still have a chance to treat yourself wrongly and thus, behave unethically.

Probably the most recognizant of what many ethical systems say is unbecoming of a person, regardless of interaction with others, are overeating and substance abuse. After that is probably laziness, though they are complimentary. The Greeks, for instance, didn't believe that such requirements were handed down from God, but were illuminated by reason. The joys of overeating and sloth are small, temporary, and ultimately illusory. Instead, they are actually harmful activities, and anyone who commits them breaks no law of society or God, but simply meanders in a degenerate, ignorant haze.

Hmm. Perhaps that was a little too prosaic. The point is that the dream environment is generally the arena of the self, and the ability to move one's self toward or away from happiness is no different than it is in waking life.

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## Ev

Personally I'm against using ethics or any kind of rules in lucid dreams. Dreams, by definition, should have no boundaries of any kind. If you wish to bound yourself by not practicing control or behaving like DCs are actual people, you are gonna lose a lot of fun. 

Practicing control is not such a bad thing. Opposite to Leo's opinion, I think a lot of dream content is just a worthless garbage, simply the process of "digestion" of ideas and experiences accumulated through the day. Even while excerting a significant amount of control over the dream content, your mind still "digests" information in the background. 


The concept of the "higher mind" seems somewhat too religious to me - why would one want to create another "God" , this time in the dreamworld?

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## Ex Nine

Ev, I really like your view because I recognize its strengths. So I'm interested in what you think - what would you say to the claim that a dream character is a real person, and that that person is you (the dreamer)?

It's a subtle distinction, for instance, for a dreamer to recognize that a dream character is real insofar as it is really a part of themselves, before making some aggressive sexual move that would by definitition be consensual, and recognizing that a dream character is somehow foreign, and making an aggressive sexual move that may or may not be welcome. The former is obviously more conducive to health and happiness - and therefore more _ethical_ - whille the latter is somewhat questionable and could adversely affect the conscience of the dreamer.

That may have been a somewhat complicated example. But I see definite strengths in both your view and Leo's and it excites me to try and reconcile them lucidly. I think we could potentially help out a lot of other lucid dreamers, as well as advance our knowledge of the entire discipline in a significant way.

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## Ev

IMO, some DCs *might* represent certain traits/processes in your mind. However the fact that DCs (at least mine) are not persistent in their actions, behavior or memory kinda diminishes that point. 

 For me the DCs are more like decorations: a street will have people on it, a supermarket will have shoppers, classroom will have student, etc etc etc.
 These DCs are so fleeing, so immaterial, they rarely, if ever speak, they  dont have a personality or appearance.  If some of them happen to adress me, most are silent or saying nonsense.  In rare cases, when I happen to initiate a conversation with a DC, *all* they tell me turns out to be either lies or total BS...

So far, the best defined DCs I've met are people I knew for a very long time. Yet even they are often just silent bystanders or companions, following me through dream scenery.

I guess that summarizes my point of view on DCs as people or aspects of yourself.


Now let me bring forth another point for controlling dreams: many people (in fact, just about  everyone I know) never had a religious or spiritual experience in a dream.  Dream control allows you to create such experiences if you so desire! 
An example : it is very unlikely that a dreamguide or any other kind of "helper" will appear to you in a normal dream. Yet in a lucid dream one may actually wish and make such entity appear. Of course the authenticity of such entity may be questionable.

Yet another point that I find extremely important: while lucid, your lucidity often depends on your actions. It is very rare for me to just "go with the flow" and not lose lucidity. ( I dont know about other people's experiences, but I'd like to compare them to mine) Same goes with repetitive actions- let's say you are just flying for a very long time. Unless you change your activity at some point, you are *very* likely to lose a good portion if not all of your lucidity and clarity.

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## Ex Nine

Yes. Ev, I definitely agree. But sometimes dreaming can be so removed from our ordinary reality that I don't know what words to use for certain unique feelings and experiences, so sometimes I feel resigned to using a spiritualist lexicon.

I'll stew over this for a while.

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## iliketodream

i read the whole post and thought that it was great, i have learnt so much from dreams and wouldnt want to trade that for flying around or dreamsex or whatever you guys do. i am however interested in how much controll i could have because i have a very limited experience with lucid dreams and have yet to explore most of what there is to see

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## Ev

This may be a bit offtopic, but anyways. The degree of dream control varies from person to person and from dream to dream. Sometimes I feel like everything is possible and I can change a lot of stuff and perform some pretty neat tricks. There are also dreams with little or no "supernatural" abilities - in such dreams all you can do is control your dream body and just walk around using land, doors, stairs, etc to move around. 

A lot of dream control is performed by experimenting. There are many suggestions on how to control dreams, some of them will work for you, others wont.

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## Oneiro

Hi. I don't agree with your interpretation of the two human "minds".

It is fast becoming de rigeur in UK Psychology that the so-called "higher" mind is the true self, with us since birth..

..but that the other "mind" is in fact, learned behaviour, that we pick up as we go along, and therefore is in fact a "foreign installation", not of the true self.

I therefore postulate that any conflict between the two is due to the true self fighting against the foreign installation which tries to suppress the true self. Just a theory.

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## SKA

I really do have to agree. Dreams are wonderfull manifestations of the creative mind. Since I am a fanatic drawer I know how much to appreciate it and to an extend let it go. I don't want to have Lucid dreams every night or absolute power or understanding of that wonderfully mysterious place. I want it to stay that mysterious and sometimes being able to explore and just gaze at it in awe. Yeah you should defenitely have respect for the high creative level of your dreams. So many times have I used visions from dreams to inspire me to draw certain scenes and characters. I cherish it as a valueable source of Inspiration and wouldn't wanna call it the ''lower'' self. More the Spontanious Pure Unfiltered Self.

All you people who think they're not artistic enough to come up with something to draw: You ARE; look at what beautifull scenery, themes, feelings and experiences YOUR mind puts together every night. Make good use of it.

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## [Alpha]-0mega-

So basically you are comparing it with this? Leo?
A king gives a puny servant the powers that the king himself has.
However, if this ''fake king'' tries to destort the true kings ruling, the true king will try to remove this ''privilige''?

This, I never had before.
Maybe it's because I believe I have become ''one'' with the ''representation'' of my subconscious.

Now i'm not talking that I AM ''it''.
Just that we are thinking alike, and that ''it'' allows me to do whatever I want.

Though it could just as well be that I do not experience this because I do not destroy the current environment, I simply modify it as I wish.

eg.: I want to meet someone, I make a door appear, instead of destroying the whole environment to create a big house where I will find this person.

In other words, you could ALSO say that we ''supply'' eachother.

I provide my requests, with the appropiate ''modifications'' to fulfill them.
The ''Higher'' then fulfills them (or this is done on my part) and creates the area where this ''will be fulfilled''.

I really don't know but i've never had problems with my subconscious. So it's hard for me to react on this.

Funny though, lately I haven't had any dreams except for the one I had yesterday (probably due to the lack of sleep / the heat).

I doubt that that has anything to do with my ''higher dream mind''.

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## Gawain

::wtf::

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