# Off-Topic Discussion > The Lounge > Ask/Tell Me About >  >  Tell me about martial arts.

## Hercuflea

Lately i have been considering Eskrima.  Does anyone else do/know about it.

Also any info on any other type of martial art is appreciated.

And for the heck of it which one has the hottest girls lol

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## ninja9578

Lol, the hottest girls would probably come from olympic style tae kwon do because it's the most cardio intensive.

Eskrima is fun, but gets boring after a while.  If you like stick fighting then try Kendo or Judo.  BoTH aRE StylES OF tHe saMuRai>

Feel free to ask me IF YOU Have anY qUestions about karate (I'm a 3rd degree black belt), BRAZILIaN JU JiTSU (I HOLD A BLUE BElt<) tae kwon dO (NO oFFICIAL RAnK< BUT I taughT FOR @ YEaRS) OR SOO BAHK DO (red belt)

ALSO, SORRY ABOUt thE caps, my shIft KeY STICKS AnD I can"t SEEM TO FIX IT>

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## tkdyo

ninja has a point about the girls...seen many many hot ones, lol.

I have been in martial arts for about 7 years now, trained in a mix of TKD, muay tai and boxing.  Now I am taking an MMA class to finally catch my ground game up, lol.  Also I have been in capoeira for a year now, it is a very fun art.  

Sorry, I do not know much about eskrima, but you should take it anyways!  Any time you are able to get another new perspective on martial arts is a good thing, living by the philosophy of Jeet kun do in absorbing from all sources and take what works right for you is key!

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## Ward

The only thing you need to know is that full contact sparring is essential to any effective martial art.

If anybody tries to tell you that their techniques are too dangerous/deadly to use while sparring, that person is probably full of shit.

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## tkdyo

> The only thing you need to know is that full contact sparring is essential to any effective martial art.
> 
> If anybody tries to tell you that their techniques are too dangerous/deadly to use while sparring, that person is probably full of shit.



lols yes this is true.  There is only one way to see which techniques you can use effectively after all.

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## Amethyst Star

> If you like stick fighting then try Kendo or Judo.



Judo involves grappling techniques (throws, sweeps, choke holds, etc.).  I miss it so much and there's no dojo nearby.  It's a lot of fun and you focus a lot about using your body weight and your opponent's body weight against them.  It's about maximum efficiency with minimum effort and mutual welfare and benefit.

It's the only martial art I've practiced, so I'm a bit biased.  I can't wait to get back into it, though.

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## ninja9578

> The only thing you need to know is that full contact sparring is essential to any effective martial art.
> 
> If anybody tries to tell you that their techniques are too dangerous/deadly to use while sparring, that person is probably full of shit.



You take a tiger claw from me during sparring and you'll be blind for life.  Unless you're training for the UFC you should never take a full power shot to the solar plexus or neck either.

Full contact is not essential, but some contact is.  Even UFC fighters don't spar at full contact in training.

The worst thing that you could do it brazilian ju jitsu by itself.  Grappling is something that you should never ever do with someone in self defense.  In real life self defense situations you ALWAYS assume that your attacker is armed and going to the ground with an armed opponent will get you stabbed.  Grappling is important, but only as a means to get back up if they take you down.

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## Hercuflea

Lol

So which one is the most dangerous

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## Dizko

I started Wing Tsun recently.

I really like it. Really evil though. xD

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## ninja9578

> So which one is the most dangerous



Krav Maga





> Judo involves grappling techniques (throws, sweeps, choke holds, etc.). I miss it so much and there's no dojo nearby. It's a lot of fun and you focus a lot about using your body weight and your opponent's body weight against them. It's about maximum efficiency with minimum effort and mutual welfare and benefit.



Correct, but do you know why it's mostly grappling and sweeping?  It's because it was the martial arts style of the samurai.  Punching and kicking an opponent who is fully armoured does absolutely nothing, so they used Judo to bring an opponent to the ground, lock them up, then they drew their sword and finished them off  ::D:

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## Amethyst Star

> Correct, but do you know why it's mostly grappling and sweeping?  It's because it was the martial arts style of the samurai.  Punching and kicking an opponent who is fully armoured does absolutely nothing, so they used Judo to bring an opponent to the ground, lock them up, then they drew their sword and finished them off



Well, Judo originated from Ju Jitsu and became a sport in 1881.  Putting it in the same sentence with Kendo made it sound like Judo is a weapon-oriented sport so I wanted to clarify in case there was some confusion  :smiley:   (I would like to take Kendo some day, though.)


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*munches on some cheap General Tso's Chicken*

Who is this General Tso anyway... and does he know I have his chicken?  ::shock::

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## Ward

> So which one is the most dangerous



All martial arts look remarkably similar when pressure tested in competition. K-1 is a good example of that. You can see muay thai fighters, karateka, and san shou practitioners fight each other and it is all called kickboxing.

Any style can be "dangerous" if trained correctly. In spite of this, there are certain martial arts that are more likely to be taught in an effective and practical manner. I will list them:
Muay Thai
Kyokushin Karate
Boxing
San Shou
Judo
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
Sambo
Wrestling

Things to look for in choosing a martial arts school are full contact sparring, a competition team, and a coach who can back up his credentials.






> You take a tiger claw from me during sparring and you'll be blind for life.



How do you know? Have you ever blinded anyone for life? Have you ever even ended a fight with an eye gouge?

Your statement reeks of bullshido.





> Full contact is not essential, but some contact is.  Even UFC fighters don't spar at full contact in training.



Yes it is and yes they do. There is a saying that goes "In a fight we do not rise to our expectations, but rather fall to the level of our training."

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## Original Poster

You knoiw what pisses me off?  Getting disqualified from a tae kwon do tournament because I fight in a way that would actually be effective in real life rather than acting like a pussy.

I focus my punches and kicks so it barely touches them, I know how to, but those pussies would still cry and cry and cry and I'm just thinking, "Why do you even take martial arts? Hell maybe if you get kidnapped you'll annoy your abducters so much they'll let you go, or better yet just kill you and drop you off in a ditch."

Seriously, there's something fundamentally wrong with tae kwon do tournaments in this country.

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## Hercuflea

Which one is best for getting a person in shape, who might not necessarily be in it

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## Hercuflea

I looked up Krav Maga and it looks cool but probably not for a beginner like me, who has just started to take an interest

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## Amethyst Star

> Which one is best for getting a person in shape, who might not necessarily be in it



Just about any martial art will do that for you.  It just depends on the training regimen, how intensely you throw yourself into it, the length of the practice, etc.  When we'd practice, we'd also do stair drills for about 20 minutes before the class actually started.  *shudders at the memory*  Then we'd do some push-ups, sit-ups, whatever the instructor or higher-ranked students wanted to do, and a lot of stretching.  If you get yourself a good instructor, he/she will have had plenty of experience with out of shape people (like myself).   Just do what you can, push yourself, and always strive to become better.  If you go at it with only half of your heart in it, your progress will be slow and cumbersome.

Check some different places out and see how they train.  Most places will let you at least watch if not participate in a class or two for free just so you can see what it's like.  Take advantage of it  :smiley:

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## Hercuflea

Ok but i have trouble raising my leg to even 90 degree angle much less 180 lol and i am 6'1"

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## Kushna Mufeed

I'm interested in taking Jiu Jitsu, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or Judo.

Now I know that these three are very close and are related to each other. I'm just wondering where exactly they differ.

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## Hercuflea

I still really like Eskrima, and Krav Maga looks cool too

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## ninja9578

> Ok but i have trouble raising my leg to even 90 degree angle much less 180 lol and i am 6'1"



That's how most of my students were when they started out.  A good master knows this and knows how to get you flexible without hurting you.





> I'm interested in taking Jiu Jitsu, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or Judo.
> 
> Now I know that these three are very close and are related to each other. I'm just wondering where exactly they differ.



Jiu jitsu is a very well rounded martial arts, it involves weaponary, sparring, and grappling.  You're not as good as a specialist in any of those, but much better off than them in real life self defense.  (Most martial arts are for self defense, not MMA)

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (also called gracie ju jitsu) is the best grappling style in the world.  It focuses on joint locks and chokes once you are on the ground.  Useful to get back up in a fight (never stay on the ground and grapplie though)

Judo is also about grappling, but focuses more on throwing and takedowns than ju jitsu.  In ju jitsu matches you start on the ground, in judo, you start standing.

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## Unelias

Been doing martial arts for 14 years now.. Gijymonkai karatejutsu, muyay thai, boxing, Brasilian Ju-jutsu, all kinds of different styles mixed up.

Martial arts are so wide definition, it all depends what do YOU want?

do you wanna learn to defend yourself? If you do, I'll recommend styles like defendo, krav maga, ju-jutsu,  Remember that ground fighting is essential for self-defence and you should try to train different situations, more than just learning to punch  and such. The style I train focuses primarly on self-defence. The main purpose is to be able fight in any situation, at any distance and against different attackers.

If you are looking to do more spiritual oriented training for example aikido, iaido, kyodo or traditional karate styles usually focus heavily on that. 

If you wanna compete there are many different styles and ways. Depends what you want, do you wanna HC training and fighting, then choose muay thai, Brasilian-Ju-jutsu, kickboxing or such.  Taekwondo, sport karate or judo are different ( and in my opionion less demanding)

If you wanna just move ( which I personally shun as motive to train martial arts, but I have understanding for those too  :tongue2: ) you could pick almost any style, again depending on how hard you want to train.

There are also lots of styles that focus primarly usin a weapon or teach lot of weapon training. Bujutsu, kendo, iaido, kobudo, escrima for example have/ or are solely weapon training.

End of my confusing and poorly thought-out rant  :vicious:

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## Hercuflea

Yeah so far Eskrima and Krav Maga look the coolest to me

maybe judo or taekwondo, but isn't taekwondo for like, little kids?

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## Unelias

> maybe judo or taekwondo, but isn't taekwondo for like, little kids?



Some will prolly hate me when I say this but taekwondo isn't held very high in my book at least. Being very competitive ( also olympic ) style, they mainly utilize only one to three techniques. I've not seen taekwondo with proper self-defence practice, which is the main reason for me to train. Lastly, it is very one-dimensional art in my opinion, being made purely out of kicks. Feel free to disagree of course.

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## Oneironaut Zero

> Which one is best for getting a person in shape, who might not necessarily be in it







> Yeah so far Eskrima and Krav Maga look the coolest to me
> 
> maybe judo or taekwondo, but isn't taekwondo for like, little kids?



If you want a good Hand to Hand style that focuses more on striking, I'd say Muay Thai is a good way to go. I could see Eskrima being a good "second style," but I think there are much more comprehensive styles out there. Krav Maga is pretty hardcore, but I don't know about how good any of the schools are, here in the states (what country are you in, btw?).

Muay Thai is very well-rounded, as far as standup goes. It is as efficient as western boxing and involves a good amount of cardio, which is essential for getting in shape.

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## ninja9578

> Yeah so far Eskrima and Krav Maga look the coolest to me
> 
> maybe judo or taekwondo, but isn't taekwondo for like, little kids?



No.  There are two real kinds of tae kwon do.  Olympic style tae kwon do, which is a sport, but pretty useless in self defense and traditional tae kwon do, which can be brutal.  I taught the latter at school under grandmaster Ted Hillson, it's not for little kids.

All styles can be for little kids, I started when I was six, most school separate the classes.  Kids can't do certain things.  Joint locks shouldn't be taught until age of 15 because the growth plates can get damaged.

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## panta-rei

> Some will prolly hate me when I say this but taekwondo isn't held very high in my book at least. Being very competitive ( also olympic ) style, they mainly utilize only one to three techniques. I've not seen taekwondo with proper self-defence practice, which is the main reason for me to train. Lastly, it is very one-dimensional art in my opinion, being made purely out of kicks. Feel free to disagree of course.



Thank you, someone who shares my distaste for Tae Kwon Do...  ::D: 

Krav Maga is messed up... Its not really a style, since anything is allowed. (Even tickling and eye-gouging.) 

Eskrima is a good weapon style, but its hard to say, since you have kind of a short range... But you can make very quick hits with the Eskrima sticks.

Judo is good, but is kind of defensive, since some of the best throws need an attack first...

I suggest you stay in some of the Shaolin disciplines, if you can find someone near you to teach it. Hung Gar, Mok Gar, Li Gar, Choy Gar, Lau Gar.

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## ninja9578

> Krav Maga is messed up... Its not really a style, since anything is allowed. (Even tickling and eye-gouging.)



Huh?  Krav Maga is probably the single most effective and tried and tested martial arts style there is  ::?:   It was created and is used by the Israeli anti-terrorist and special forces.  

If you mean because it's not useful for sports then you're right.  If they didn't wear protective gear when they sparred or fought like the UFC they'd seriously injure each other or worse.

Just to be clear tradition tae kwon do is very useful, teaches proper blocking.  This is sparring practice with traditional tae kwon do.  During tournaments we wear helmets so in this one we pulled punches more than normal up high, but I kicked him fairly hard in the stomach multiple times

In case your wondering my hand is behind my back because  Iinjured it, not because I'm cocky  ::tongue:: 


This is olympic style tae kwon do.   They fight mostly with their hands down and often use what are called flurry kicks.  They are lots of kicks really fast, but they have no power behind them.  This is what most tae kwon do schools teach.

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## Unelias

Well I try always to think that its the human who fights not the style.
But I have never lost to pure taekwondoka. They have techniques only for kicking distance and have usually no knowledge whatsoever for punches, grappling, clinches  ground fighting, takedowns, close combat or low kicks. It's usually one or two kick from them and then it's pretty much over.

Krav Maga, while being extremely brutal is effective and uses natural movements to advantage. They have my respect in self-defence sense.

But believe me when I say, there are no longer styles, no shouts "your kung fu is weak" or whatever. Martial art world has changed for good, the best train multiple styles and mix techniques that work. There is no reason to keep techniques or approaches that don't work.

My own style is combination of many arts and aims to arm traineers for every situation, fighting style or self-defence situation.

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## panta-rei

I love Krav Maga, I didn't mean to give the impression that I didn't like it, I just find it odd that there are very little _restrictions_ on what to do. Its an amazing way to fight, and I know it's origins. I would say to learn it (many places offer lessons for it, surprisingly.)
And if you need to use it, I'd be surprised if your rival was left standing... 

I admire Tae Kwon Do for its strength, but I have a prejudice against it. As I have found, most of the teachers for it are very cocky and selfrighteous... Now I realize those would be the olympic style ones... The main reason I hate it is because of who teaches it around here, and the way the people act while being taught... Around here, the main teacher is a very white guy, who makes the students call him Sensai Bob... He is a fifth degree black belt, but never teaches his student anything... My friend learned from him, and is now a third degree black belt (well enough to completely kick my ass.) I fought him, and told him to not hold back... I won still...

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## Unelias

This is another reason why martial arts are so troubling. I've done them about 14 years and I teach my own classes too. But I hate this pride some people think they deserve. Most of "senseis" have never been in real fights, most of them are just hoaxes. 

Respect is earned. Luckily I learned to see good teachers from bad at the very beginning.

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## Hercuflea

I think i have these unthinkable dreams of walking around with two eskrima sticks on my back and kicking anyone's butt who looks at me wrong lol

Yeah i am in the States and there are a few schools around me, just shopping around to see which one i may want to try

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## tkdyo

> I admire Tae Kwon Do for its strength, but I have a prejudice against it. As I have found, most of the teachers for it are very cocky and self righteous... Now I realize those would be the olympic style ones... The main reason I hate it is because of who teaches it around here, and the way the people act while being taught... Around here, the main teacher is a very white guy, who makes the students call him Sensai Bob... He is a fifth degree black belt, but never teaches his student anything... My friend learned from him, and is now a third degree black belt (well enough to completely kick my ass.) I fought him, and told him to not hold back... I won still...



yeah, this is a major problem with TKD being one of the most popular martial arts taught.  It is because it is not taught in its entirety and many times large chunks are cut out to make it more accessible for recreational purposes.  That is what gives us who really practice it (I say us because Ninja seems to be on the same page as me) a bad name.  It is true there are many unorthodox kicks that seem like they would never work in a non sparring situation, but trust me when taught properly some of them work very well.

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## panta-rei

Atleast I know the difference now... I only thought there was one type... I'll try to be a little more open minded to the TKD thing...

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## ninja9578

> yeah, this is a major problem with TKD being one of the most popular martial arts taught.  It is because it is not taught in its entirety and many times large chunks are cut out to make it more accessible for recreational purposes.  That is what gives us who really practice it (I say us because Ninja seems to be on the same page as me) a bad name.  It is true there are many unorthodox kicks that seem like they would never work in a non sparring situation, but trust me when taught properly some of them work very well.



Continuing on that, some of those kicks really are useless.  In that video I did a jumping tornado kick, something I would never do in a real self defense situation, but a valuable tool for teaching balance and coordination.  Just because your instructor shows you something that doesn't really work doesn't mean he does have a reason for teaching it.  That's the major problem with those people who only take what they think works and don't practice the other stuff.  I hate it when people scoff at forms, I'm a skilled fighter because I have good balance, and good balance comes from forms.

Lots of jump kicks come from Tang Soo Do, and were designed to knock people off of a horse.

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## tkdyo

indeed, there is much more to training than simply punching a bag and sparring, you have to do a lot of different exercises to work out every muscle group, balance, reaction, coordination.  Thats why I actually get a rush from training.

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## Unelias

If thinking kicks in general in self-defence situation.. I have never, ever used kicks higher than waist level, you will find out that there are very few kicks you can/should/is safe to use. Low-kicks, maybe front kick and sidekicks.. knee is the usual tool in self-defence situation.

More over, I don't like sport taekwondos way to teach kicks. Because you have to be ultra fast in competition in order to get points, students rarely pivot their grounded leg, which will lead to broken knees eventually. Most of them also kick ( as in video) kicks that can never surprise a skilled fighter. They are too transparent, too obvious. Legs are always slower than hands, easy to grab on, go to takedowns. Especially so loved roundhouse kick.

Other thing that really stood out is their defence. No people in thei right mind would use traditional one handed block for kick. You will have a nice broken arm when kicker nows how to generate force.

But hey, heads up! TKD is still a lot higher than Taido in my book ( which is still the stupidest thing I've ever seen. Feel free to debate on that)

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## tkdyo

I agree with you on high kicks, those I would only try in sport like MMA where if you get taken down, you still know you wont die, but I disagree about kicks being too trasparent if they are from the front.  I know I know, people say front leg kicks dont carry enough power, but trust me, when you train those hip flexors enough your kicks get lightning fast from the front, and they are strong enough to snap a few ribs if you were to go to the midsection.  

In short, it all depends on how you train and how you set up your opponent before hand.

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## Photolysis

> I looked up Krav Maga and it looks cool but probably not for a beginner like me, who has just started to take an interest



You would be surprised. Krav Maga was designed so everyone, soldier or civilian, young or old, male or female, athletic, or non-athletic could use it. Whilst there are advanced techniques taught at higher levels the entire martial art is based around simple moves that have the maximum effect. Anyone can pick up some basics very quickly.

Additionally, it incorporates various moves from many different martial arts. Strikes from Muay Thai for instance, grappling from Judo, etc.

I've read several books on the art and it's certainly something I'm going to take up.






> Krav Maga is messed up... Its not really a style, since anything is allowed. (Even tickling and eye-gouging.)



Krav Maga is not a sport. It's not designed to be honourable. It's designed for one thing only: to allow you to survive in almost any combat situation. It is designed around you being the one left standing in a dangerous situation, and you doing whatever it takes. Whether that means gouging someone's eye out, tickling an opponent, exploiting any of the body's reflexes and mechanisms, or using any object as a weapon.

However as part of all courses, students are taught when to fight and how to avoid confrontation. They are also taught how to moderate the levels of violence so they are appropriate for the situation.

And personally, if I'm attacked by a thug with a knife in a dark alley at night, I'd much rather have him blinded and me not stabbed than be lying dead on the floor because the self defense I was taught didn't work in a cramped space (for example).

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## Unelias

> I agree with you on high kicks, those I would only try in sport like MMA where if you get taken down, you still know you wont die, but I disagree about kicks being too trasparent if they are from the front.  I know I know, people say front leg kicks dont carry enough power, but trust me, when you train those hip flexors enough your kicks get lightning fast from the front, and they are strong enough to snap a few ribs if you were to go to the midsection.  
> 
> In short, it all depends on how you train and how you set up your opponent before hand.



Front kick is useful because of its snapping speed in real fight. I've always had long and strong kicks. While I do have reach in sparring, I dislike flashy kicks in general. But low kicks, for example short roundhouse kick to the thigh ( or knee if ment to totally destroy) is one of the most deadliest and hardest to see in close combat. But if you have reasonable defence posture, your front kick tends to hit elbows and hands. If hitting ribcage it will surely destroy smallest rib bones. The deal is, you rarely get chance unless you use kick after you have unbalanced the opponent with punch or something else.

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## ninja9578

Against a skilled martial artist you will almost never get a good kick in without them at least partially blocking it or setting it up really well.  But against someone who doesn't know what they're doing (like in most self defense situations) a nice hard side kick to the stomach is easy to pull off.

I usually block roundhouse kicks with a double arm block, a properly executed one, even against the strongest kicker will not break your arms.  Proper double arm blocks (all blocks) are meant to deflect the kick's power, not absorb them. Side kicks and front kicks can be easily blocked with one hand.

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## Unelias

> Against a skilled martial artist you will almost never get a good kick in without them at least partially blocking it or setting it up really well.  But against someone who doesn't know what they're doing (like in most self defense situations) a nice hard side kick to the stomach is easy to pull off.
> 
> I usually block roundhouse kicks with a double arm block, a properly executed one, even against the strongest kicker will not break your arms.  Proper double arm blocks (all blocks) are meant to deflect the kick's power, not absorb them. Side kicks and front kicks can be easily blocked with one hand.



Nice to see you have clearly trained  :smiley:  I usually take roundhouse kicks with my shoulder, hands tightly in the body, or evade it by movement. Simple movement against the kicker usually negates all the power, since you can get yourself below the knee.

In self-defence kicks are indeed easier to set up. But usual situation, slippery ground, different footwear, restricting clothes make kicks quite hazardous. Also in normal self-defence situation it's couple punches maybe one kick and down to the ground. Of course, while I am quite proficient in ground combat, I've always trained more the methods of quickly disposing one opponent or getting to dominating position so I can get up or actually see what Joe Doey's friends are going to do with that baseball bat ^^


In friendly match where both are aware it is almost impossible to get surprising attack from long distance ( which i.e sport karate and tkd sparring usually use).

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## Man of Shred

i live in such a small town there's no real training. I've been learning a hung gar form from a DVD. I'm probably doing a lot wrong tho. but I do spar regularly with friends and a cousin. My blocking reflexes have improved. but i don't strike very hard when sparring.

 I used to take jiu jitsu. and for self defencse jiu jitsu is great. It's gotten me out of a few sticky situations before.

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## drewmandan

Study something other than ninjitsu if you want to be "hip". 

Study ninjitsu if you want to be effective.

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## panta-rei

I have to agree with Unelias that kicks aren't extremely helpful all the time.. If you are in the right situation to do one, they're devistating, but try doing a kick to the ribs while wearing jeans.... Its just not going to happen.

Damn, drewmandan.. You're even more close minded than me...

Ninjutsu is well rounded, putting focus on balance, speed, and strength, but it is the person, not the art, that tells effectiveness...

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## ninja9578

> Nice to see you have clearly trained :







> Been doing martial arts for 14 years now..



I've actually got a couple years on you.





> In self-defence kicks are indeed easier to set up. But usual situation, slippery ground, different footwear, restricting clothes make kicks quite hazardous. Also in normal self-defence situation it's couple punches maybe one kick and down to the ground. Of course, while I am quite proficient in ground combat, I've always trained more the methods of quickly disposing one opponent or getting to dominating position so I can get up or actually see what Joe Doey's friends are going to do with that baseball bat ^^



I'd be less worried about the guy with the bat than the guy you're currently fighting.  If you get mugged it's probably going to just be one guy, not more than that.  Grappling is good to get back up, but you still don't want to go to the ground if you're not sure if he's got a knife or not.  You should always assume that he does.  The average person shouldn't be a challenge for anyone with 10+ years to knock down.  A swift kick to the knee and a palm to the jaw should give you plenty of time to run away.

Two guys aren't that hard to fight assuming that they don't both have bats or something, three or more, just give them your wallet and cut your loses.

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## drewmandan

> but it is the person, not the art, that tells effectiveness...



All else being equal, meaning same person, ninjitsu is much more effective than most martial arts if the goal is incapacitation or death.

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## Unelias

> All else being equal, meaning same person, ninjitsu is much more effective than most martial arts if the goal is incapacitation or death.



Could you please define what makes ninjutsu effective? Your answer is crucial for me to know how to think about you. Do you train it yourself? 

I have trained ninjutsu ( btw it is spelled ninJUTSU, not ninjitsu,). While it is true ninjutsu has very "deadly" arsenal of techniques in taijutsu, the unarmed form, it is not considered as hand to hand skill. Ninjutsu is more like tradition or set of different skills. I am always very suspicious against all who banter about ninjutsu.

Even though I have experience on that skill too, I don't rank it to be any more effective than modern day trained defendo or krav maga. Ninjutsu, being very traditional art loses much of it's true potential because they stick to old traditions, which of course is very understandable 





> I've actually got a couple years on you.



I was by no means being cocky or trying to boast myself  :smiley:  but years are years, they are only potential time to get better. I have seen guys who have trained lot more than me, yet they know lot less. Training methods, training vigor, skill, everything matters. I just ment that you seem to have very reasonable and realistic sense in martial arts, which earns automatically some respect from me  :smiley: 





> I'd be less worried about the guy with the bat than the guy you're currently fighting.  If you get mugged it's probably going to just be one guy, not more than that.  Grappling is good to get back up, but you still don't want to go to the ground if you're not sure if he's got a knife or not.  You should always assume that he does.  The average person shouldn't be a challenge for anyone with 10+ years to knock down.  A swift kick to the knee and a palm to the jaw should give you plenty of time to run away.
> 
> Two guys aren't that hard to fight assuming that they don't both have bats or something, three or more, just give them your wallet and cut your loses.



Of course you will never want to go ground. I have met lots of "cocky" i.e BJJ trainees who boast with their superiority in the ground. Yes, they are indeed usually the best down there, that I admit. But in self defence you never wanna go ground. You usually do and then you need the keys to get out.  :smiley:  and usually the guy who wants to bash your brains out is a lot bigger and heavier. And they rarely are alone.. I speak very much from my experience as bouncer ( I wonder if that is the correct word in english) and the general streetfights I have in this damn town. Not very pleasant neighbourhood :/

In case of mugging or robbery I totally agree, better money than life. Weapons are another tricky thing.. Usually when you see knife defence training, it isn't very realistic. There is a great difference if someone wants to stab you and if he draws a knife in a middle of fight. If he wants to stab you there isn't very much you can do. I also agree with the attitude you have with weapons. There is always a chance attacker has a weapon and if he has one, there is a great chance he has another one.

Well again that's was some rant from me.. Just woke up from a little nap so please forgive any writing errors or things I forgot to write ^^

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## ninja9578

> All else being equal, meaning same person, ninjitsu is much more effective than most martial arts if the goal is incapacitation or death.



Death shouldn't be the goal.  Self defense laws won't protect you if you kill someone.  It's called reasonable force.  The only time killing someone is allowed is if you are in fear for your own life.  To a martial artist this means maybe a 3 on 1 fight or a fight against someone armed with something more than a knife.

I don't think any style is superior to any other, only different specialities.  For killing there is no better style than Krav Maga and it's very heavily tested in real world situations.





> I was by no means being cocky or trying to boast myself  but years are years, they are only potential time to get better. I have seen guys who have trained lot more than me, yet they know lot less. Training methods, training vigor, skill, everything matters. I just ment that you seem to have very reasonable and realistic sense in martial arts, which earns automatically some respect from me



I've met those guys too.





> Of course you will never want to go ground. I have met lots of "cocky" i.e BJJ trainees who boast with their superiority in the ground. Yes, they are indeed usually the best down there, that I admit



That's why I teach my students the mainly how to use grappling to gain dominate position and get back up, not finish someone via submission.  I teach submission grappling too, but only because it's fun.  I'd surely lose a match to a ju jitsu specialist.





> In case of mugging or robbery I totally agree, better money than life. Weapons are another tricky thing.. Usually when you see knife defence training, it isn't very realistic. There is a great difference if someone wants to stab you and if he draws a knife in a middle of fight. If he wants to stab you there isn't very much you can do.



You seem very knowledgable of what to do when confronted with a knife.  But for everyone else: running is usually the best defense.  If he's faster than you, then this goes back to what I said about reasonable force.  If you seriously injure him while he's holding the knife, that's perfectly fine.  Fancy disarms don't work, distracting him by breaking his knee or gouging his eyes take his attention away from the knife, then it can be taken away from him.  Once you have disarmed him, the balance of power has dramatically shifted and reasonable force dictates that you don't harm him anymore.  "Teaching him a lesson" makes you the aggressor and if caught, you'd go to jail.

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## Unelias

> You seem very knowledgable of what to do when confronted with a knife.  But for everyone else: running is usually the best defense.  If he's faster than you, then this goes back to what I said about reasonable force.  If you seriously injure him while he's holding the knife, that's perfectly fine.  Fancy disarms don't work, distracting him by breaking his knee or gouging his eyes take his attention away from the knife, then it can be taken away from him.  Once you have disarmed him, the balance of power has dramatically shifted and reasonable force dictates that you don't harm him anymore.  "Teaching him a lesson" makes you the aggressor and if caught, you'd go to jail.



Escaping situation and if you cannot do that, you fight. While laws of reasonable force difference greatly, I can say that back here in Finland it is very strict. If you punch attacker with knife in the face, you will most prolly go to jail. But survival comes first. I have had cases in which I was "forced" ( my apologies for this word) to seriously injure the attacker. You should of course try to inflict minimal damage, but personally if two guys gank you  by surprise, armed and with intention to really kill you ( one of those earlier experiences of mine) and you cannot escape.. well frankly in that case I don't care a damn if the other one leaves that place without working arm and other one crawls out. 

The bad thing is that when you are doing security hob at festivals or bars or whatever, running rarely is an option. At least not for me in cases the aggressive client might just go and bash some poor guy who has no idea what is happening. This of course is a bit more complicated too. Luckily, there are lots of us usually ^^

And to drewmandan : Killing a man is quite easy and simple. That's all. You don't need to train years for that. You don't need no fancy techniques or styles. That's however is not what modern world martial arts are for, maybe for exception for military combat.

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## Photolysis

> Killing a man is quite easy and simple.



It's surprising when you read up on anatomy just how many weak points the human body has.





> Ninjutsu is more like tradition or set of different skills.



I seem to remember that it involves hand to hand combat as well as various other weapon skills, such as throwing stars, and also incorporates elements of stealth?

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## Hercuflea

Actually in America, I'm pretty sure that _any_ breach of a person's property in a suspicious/malicious fashion is considered "fearing for your life" and it is actually encouraged to shoot to kill if you have a weapon because if you wound them you could get slapped with a lawsuit.

At least in the South, anyway.   :wink2:

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## Unelias

> It's surprising when you read up on anatomy just how many weak points the human body has.



You need only basic knowledge of anatomy to destruct parts of body. Of course master knowledge of human body involves usage of pressure points. However, I also know lots of people who think pressure points are the greatest arsenal we have. Truth is, they are very good way to spice up some techniques, but they should never ever be primary target in my opinion. They are fascinating of course, in scientifical sense. I primarly use them in locks and grappling. People seem to be often amazed when they ask about pressure KO etc.. what most people don't know, easiest way to use them is just hit the jaw. Lots of points there. '^





> I seem to remember that it involves hand to hand combat as well as various other weapon skills, such as throwing stars, and also incorporates elements of stealth?



True. Traditional ninjutsu has many skills used in guerilla warfare. For example even geography and weather prediction was taught. Too bad ninjutsu is shrouded in mystery and bullshit, especially here in teh internezt. Critical approach people, critical approach.

To hercuflea : here in Finland.. umm.. that sounds quite ridicilous when seen from viewpoint of law.  :tongue2:  no offence for anyone in the States.

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## Photolysis

> You need only basic knowledge of anatomy to destruct parts of body. Of course master knowledge of human body involves usage of pressure points. However, I also know lots of people who think pressure points are the greatest arsenal we have. Truth is, they are very good way to spice up some techniques, but they should never ever be primary target in my opinion. They are fascinating of course, in scientifical sense. I primarly use them in locks and grappling. People seem to be often amazed when they ask about pressure KO etc.. what most people don't know, easiest way to use them is just hit the jaw. Lots of points there. '^



As I understand it, pressure points are useful if you need to subdue someone without causing permanent damage; even simple finger locks can cause a lot of pain as you are no doubt aware of! I think riot police tend to make use of these techniques to restrain people?

But in a combat situation, it seems kind of unlikely that you'd be able to take advantage of the receptors in the neck to knock someone out. As you say, it's easier to just hit them! And against a professional who knows what they are doing, it's not going to be anywhere near as effective, though I suppose it could be useful for manipulating him in to certain positions so you can strike more effectively... I guess it depends on the situation.

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## Unelias

Also pressure points are far from reliable. For some people they work, for some they work less and some are fairly immune to certain pressure points. But I have studied ways to rip and maim muscles if necessary. Anatomy knowledge is indeed useful but well.. its just bonus  :smiley:  

But they are indeed useful for subduing without permanent damage. You just have to know how, when, why do it. It's far from field of amateurs. But as I said, I don't like them very much. Some extra pain spikes when grappling and such. In martial community they are also considered as "dirty tactics" by many.

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## panta-rei

> But in a combat situation, it seems kind of unlikely that you'd be able to take advantage of the receptors in the neck to knock someone out. As you say, it's easier to just hit them! And against a professional who knows what they are doing, it's not going to be anywhere near as effective, though I suppose it could be useful for manipulating him in to certain positions so you can strike more effectively... I guess it depends on the situation.



Many effective pressure points are on the arms and legs... If someone swings at you, you can catch it, and cause a bit of pain with just a finger. And if you are down on the ground, you could reverse the situation by hitting certain points with a hammer fist. Still, you are right, many knock out ones are on the head, neck, and chest which are easily defended.

About them being used to cause subdue people without serious damage, most of the knockout points have a "risk of death" attached to them...

Unelias is right though, its not always the same for everyone... I know this, since a few just don't work on me. (mainly in the arms)

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## Hercuflea

Yeah it's pretty much official, my choice is Filipino Kali/Eskrima/Arnis

Go to the 1:00 mark then watch this chick go, geez

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD7BhuC_DlQ

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## Unelias

Well good luck then  :smiley:  but remember to keep open mind and while this advice might sound cryptic : respect your teachers if they are worth of it, but never listen them blindly after basics. Unless of course you want to be like 90&#37; of martial artists. Arrogant, too prideful, seeing their own style or way of doing, going circles and thinking why there is no developement and why other people progress further. After all, there is only one fighting style and that's how humans fight. With hands, feet, head, teeth. Everything you have  :tongue2: 

Applies to other things too. 

But well  :smiley:  hard training. 'nuff said  :tongue2:

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## tkdyo

have fun with it.  Hopefully you progress past that chick pretty quickly!

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## Photolysis

> About them being used to cause subdue people without serious damage, most of the knockout points have a "risk of death" attached to them...



I wasn't simply talking about pressure points that can KO someone, I was also including applying pressure to tendons, nerve clusters and joints. Obviously strikes to the temples, base of the skull, neck, or the area above the heart are very dangerous and do have a risk of serious injury. After all, to knock someone out by trauma, you need to essentially cause (hopefully minor and temporary) brain damage.

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## Unelias

> I wasn't simply talking about pressure points that can KO someone, I was also including applying pressure to tendons, nerve clusters and joints. Obviously strikes to the temples, base of the skull, neck, or the area above the heart are very dangerous and do have a risk of serious injury. After all, to knock someone out by trauma, you need to essentially cause (hopefully minor and temporary) brain damage.



Well normal kick or punch that connects usually damages internal organs, if done properly. One safety thing I learned when I practiced pressure points is to work for one side only. Because if you activate both sides at the same time the painspikes meet in the middle and carry a great risk of overstraining heart.

For head knockouts it's rarely concussion. Usually it's merely brains shutting down because jaw is full of pressure points. But of course, when enough force is applied it will lead to concussion.

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## drewmandan

> Death shouldn't be the goal.



Death is absolutely the goal. This is self-defense, not pansy dancing. The military doesn't use rubber bullets, does it?

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## panta-rei

Thats war, not self defense... Self defense is making sure you are alive, not that the opposition is dead...

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## ninja9578

> Death is absolutely the goal. This is self-defense, not pansy dancing. The military doesn't use rubber bullets, does it?



You kill someone in self defense you go to jail.  Reasonable force.

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## drewmandan

> You kill someone in self defense you go to jail.  Reasonable force.



You kill someone who's trying to kill you and you go to jail? That's new.

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## ninja9578

> You kill someone who's trying to kill you and you go to jail? That's new.



In most situations your life is not in danger.  The average unarmed attacker is not a serious threat.  Depending on skill level not even one man with a switchblade should warrant killing them.  Once you get the knife away, if you continue to beat on him, you've become the attacker and will end up in jail.

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## Hercuflea

> In most situations your life is not in danger.  The average unarmed attacker is not a serious threat.  Depending on skill level not even one man with a switchblade should warrant killing them.  Once you get the knife away, if you continue to beat on him, you've become the attacker and will end up in jail.



That's highly doubtful speculation.  If you are attacked in any way that threatens your life you are authorized to use lethal force in America.

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## ninja9578

> That's highly doubtful speculation.  If you are attacked in any way that threatens your life you are authorized to use lethal force in America.



You'd better have a good laywer then

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## panta-rei

> You'd better have a good laywer then



Seconded...

America doesn't have as lax of laws as you hope. Killing in self defense isn't commonly forgiven...

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## drewmandan

> In most situations your life is not in danger.  The average unarmed attacker is not a serious threat.  Depending on skill level not even one man with a switchblade should warrant killing them.  Once you get the knife away, if you continue to beat on him, you've become the attacker and will end up in jail.



Why would I break out the deadly art of ninjitsu if I didn't fear for my life?





> You'd better have a good laywer then



Not true. It need only be proven that the dead guy demonstrated a clear intent to kill.

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## panta-rei

drewmandan, do you even know what Ninjutsu is? Its not just killing... Its mostly restraining, and every art is somewhat deadly...

Yea, how do you prove that the dead guy on the ground was a threat to your life?

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## ninja9578

> Why would I break out the deadly art of ninjitsu if I didn't fear for my life?



Simply knocking someone out or hurting them is often sufficient.





> Not true. It need only be proven that the dead guy demonstrated a clear intent to kill.



Wrong.  You need to prove that he had the intent to kill _and_ the capability.  Someone unarmed is not a threat to a martial arts expert, depedning on skill level a small knife isn't either.  And once the knife is gone, his capabili, ty to kill is gone and you can not kill him then.  You would also have to prove that you couldn't have simply run away, if you could have gotten away, but chose to fight, then you were the aggressor.

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## drewmandan

> Simply knocking someone out or hurting them is often sufficient.



No, it is not. 





> Wrong.  You need to prove that he had the intent to kill _and_ the capability.  Someone unarmed is not a threat to a martial arts expert, depedning on skill level a small knife isn't either.  And once the knife is gone, his capabili, ty to kill is gone and you can not kill him then.  You would also have to prove that you couldn't have simply run away, if you could have gotten away, but chose to fight, then you were the aggressor.



I disagree.

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## panta-rei

Yea it is, most people will run if their first attack didn't work...

It doesn't matter if you disagree... The law agrees.

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## Hercuflea

Look, say you are in a bank, and you posess a concealed carry permit, along with the weapon it allows.  A man walks in, points a gun at the cashier, and demands money.  You pull out your weapon and shoot him.

He is still the aggresor, and you are the hero.

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## panta-rei

But if he comes up and punches the cashier, you don't have the right to shoot him...

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## Hercuflea

I doubt a punch would be considered "life threatening" by a court, even though there are a few places where a person could die from getting punched at.  If he had anything other than his fists as weapons, i am sure deadly force would be completely acceptable by law.

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## tkdyo

Im pretty sure it also depends on your background.  If you have never had any formal training, it might be understandable that when threatned with a knife you would go as far as to kill the person.  However the law would be much tougher on a trained fighter because they think you should be mentally and physically trained well enough to only eliminate the threat, not the person.

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## ninja9578

> I doubt a punch would be considered "life threatening" by a court, even though there are a few places where a person could die from getting punched at.  If he had anything other than his fists as weapons, i am sure deadly force would be completely acceptable by law.







> Im pretty sure it also depends on your background.  If you have never had any formal training, it might be understandable that when threatned with a knife you would go as far as to kill the person.  However the law would be much tougher on a trained fighter because they think you should be mentally and physically trained well enough to only eliminate the threat, not the person.



I agree with tkdyo, a well trained martial artist can cripple someone just as easily as they can kill someone.  If you can give them a killshot to the throat, there is no reason you couldn't move it a little higher and simply tiger-claw their eyes.  If you can get a hard chop to the neck, then there is no reason you can't aim higher and hit the temple.  

While they're eyes are tearing up / off balance, taking a knife away is pretty easy if you know what you're doing.

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## Hercuflea

Well all i can say is a dead criminal can't testify against you.

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## Unelias

Ok guys.. I gotta say that here in Finland you will almost automatically go to jail. As I said before, if the attacker has a knife, already punch in the face will probably but you both behind the bars. Simple as that.





> Death is absolutely the goal. This is self-defense, not pansy dancing. The military doesn't use rubber bullets, does it?



This shows that you are incapable of distinquish the difference between war and normal self-defence situation. It also shows that you don't train martial arts or self-defence. Lastly, it shows that you are pretty indifferent about human lives. You seem to live in feudal era where martial arts existed purely for killing purposes. 





> You kill someone who's trying to kill you and you go to jail? That's new.



This shows you have no idea how violence is punished by laws. It also shows that you are either incredibly stupid or just trolling around. Were you raised in a cellar?





> Why would I break out the deadly art of ninjitsu if I didn't fear for my life?



This shows that you have no idea what ninJUTSU is, since you are unable to even write it correctly. I cannot take seriously a guy who seems to have gotten all of his information from watching pathetic ninja movies from the eighties or too much anime. You know nothing about this "deadly art" you speak of. You are either, again incredibly stupid troll or a liar. 






> Not true. It need only be proven that the dead guy demonstrated a clear intent to kill.



I really don't know what kind of circus you have there instead of laws. But that is not a justification to kill anyone, at least if you are trained professional. Normal person who has no experience on self-defence cannot properly survey the situation. But as trained professional you have no need  ( like ninja said) to kill your attacker. . You can knock him out, cripple him, restrain him with same effort. I am classified as deadly weapon in the eyes of law because of my training. So if I am in brawl or something they expect me to know what I am capable of. I will always get a more sever punishment.

I still try to understand something of your attitude, but it's hard for me to take you seriously. I agree that if somebody really comes to murder me, I personally wouldn't regret killing him. But if somebody wants to murder you he just shoots you down and you die. Or stabs you in the crowd. There is no self-defence for that.

What we are talking about are usually street fights, bar fights, brawls, muggings, robberies. They are still far from planned murder and war.

Pfeh.

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## tkdyo

really?  You arnt allowed to defend yourself even if the guy has a knife?  what kind of law is that?  Thats like in High school where both of you would get suspended from a fight even if the other guy jumps you and you let him rub your face in to the ground (it happened to my brother) that is bs.

Thats why when I was in hs i was willing to defend myself if someone jumped me, since I was going to be suspended either way.

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## ninja9578

Yeah, your laws in Finland are way to strict  ::?:   If someone pulled a knife on me I'd certainly put him in the hospital.

Unelias is right, I've also had some training in ninj_U_tsu.  Real ninjutsu should be teaching you how to evade strikes and such, not throw them.  In ancient times the ninjas warred with the samurai, who were far superior warriors.  The ninjas relied on stealth and mystique, not their fighting ability, once their cover was blown a ninja was no match for a sword wielding samurai.

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## Unelias

I don't think they are too strict. Actually majority here is greatly confused about how you do the things in the States.

The deal with a law like that is called "h&#228;t&#228;varjelun liiottelu". I think it correspondes with the term ninja used with reasonable force. Literally translated it could mean "extending right to defend" I am not a law person, nor am I very good at translating but I try to translate parts of this law to you so you get somewhat clear understanding how it works here.

In Finland "h&#228;t&#228;varjelu" (h&#228;t&#228; = panic, varjelu = defence) is a criminal act, usually offending person's freedom from injury, which is not usually punished because it has been vitaly important in order to ward off an unjustified attack that was directed to a person, property or home peace. If an act that served as panic defence is greater than necessary, when taking accounts all the factors, the defender will be sentenced full or reduced penalty. In these cases it's about "h&#228;t&#228;varjelun liioittelu" (h&#228;t&#228;varjelu = panic defence, liioittelu = exaggeration)
The court of law will naturally decide if the act was unjustified, panic defence or maybe something else. Panic defence is viable as criminal act, in other words *it is always viewed as a crime which court of law sees as justified because it's nature as defence.*

Luuloteltu h&#228;t&#228;varjelu (luuloteltu = imagined, unsure, h&#228;t&#228;varjelu = panic defence) criteria are met when a person who has a wrong view or knowledge of the situation, commits a crime which he thinks is justified via panic defence. I.e brutal and too hard defence against a weapon replica is luuloteltu h&#228;t&#228;varjelu, if replica was impossible to distinguish from a real weapon. In the replica case the defence may lead to milder punishments, because the defender was thinking it was a real weapon. If the force used to defend was reasonable, charges are usually dropped. May emphasis more on compensation via money than prison sentences.

The core idea of panic defence is that proper defence is not being punished. But usually for example defence against a knife attacker might fulfill the criteria of mild assault. 

When extending your right to defend, there are also several factors that are of course highly logical. If your defences are way too severe compaired to the attack ( shooting unarmed attacker with a shotgun  :tongue2:  ) or to the thing you are protecting ( stopping an apple thief with rifle) or they are being used wrong as timely sense ( keep on kicking an attacker that has already been subdued). You can also prevent an attack in advantage if there is a good reason and proof for it. Timing is crucial since violations done too early or too late are not considered as right to defend. After initial attack has been defended, you are mostly overusing your right to defend and you become the assaulter.

But of course these are laws and the court of law has to everytime look all the factors and see what was considered reasonable to the situation.  

While this is growing to a lenghty ramble I give some examples

1. Persons A and B have been drinking in A's apartment. B had refused to leave the place even if A had told him so. B started to threathen him with a fruit knife. A had hitten B 7 times with a metal rod. After two strikes B had already dropped the knife, but was still combative. The court of law decided that A had used unreasonable force in the next 5 strikes because B had been, in increasing way, defendless. Also, A must had understood the possibility of death. Even if the last five strikes were considered as too much, the previous aggresive behavior of B was seen to affect to the actions of A. A was convicted for 6 years of prison because of manslaughter made under a very slightly mitigated circumstances 

And another one : A had broke into M's appartment where were also B and T. A had threathened the group with a shotgun and M had answered by shooting A with small rifle. Because the situation had changed so radically fast M didn't have time to properly aim his shot, which had pierced A in the chest area. A had died in his wounds. Court of law saw that M couldn't had prevented A's attack with milder actions. Charges of manslaughter were dropped.

So a long post, I tried my best to make this understandable. My apologies for my English. Feel free to ask more of course.

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## Unelias

Come on, I had the trouble of writing this stuff down  :tongue2:  at least comment something.
 :Voodoo Doll: 
Bump!

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## Amethyst Star

I read it, Unelias, and found it to be a good explination.  Your English is just fine, I might add  :smiley:

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## Unelias

Thank you  :smiley:  I hope my time didn't go in vain ^^ 

I am glad to hear some comments about my English too. I haven't written anything that complicated for a long time. ( or at least it was complicated for me  ::D:  )

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## Grod

I took Tae Kwon Do for years when I was a kid. Not to offend anyone, but that shit sucks. My friends and I would spar, them taking Karate and Ninjitsu and I would get my ass kicked up and down the street. We were all roughly the same size and strength. I was actually physically stronger and faster than them. The things you do are ridiculous. None of that stuff actually works in a fight. 

I have been thinking about taking a new discipline, one that actually works. I'm thinking of just going for some straight up Karate or Judo. It actually works. Krav Maga if they have it where I live, but I doubt it.

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## Unelias

Strange that many people seem to run to ninjutsu these days  :smiley:  I wonder if they are the original one or just something someone invented.

And consider that there practically isn't ninjutsu anymore, its more like Budo Taijutsu these days and consist almost only the unarmed combat skills combined with some weapon skills.  :smiley: 

but everything is how you train. How many years you trained? Was this when you was really young too?

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## Photolysis

> I took Tae Kwon Do for years when I was a kid. Not to offend anyone, but that shit sucks. My friends and I would spar, them taking Karate and Ninjitsu and I would get my ass kicked up and down the street. We were all roughly the same size and strength. I was actually physically stronger and faster than them. The things you do are ridiculous. None of that stuff actually works in a fight.



The problem I find with most martial arts from a self-defense (not as a sport) viewpoint is that they are limiting. Take Judo for example, you're basically limiting yourself to throws and various grapples and locks. I'm not denying that these are effective techniques but why limit yourself to that. What happens if your arms were injured, or space was so confined that you couldn't throw an opponent (or even kick them). The techniques from most martial arts would be useless.

Very few martial arts seem to go for the full spectrum of moves one can perform and train you to deal with almost any situation, something I personally find unacceptable when learning for self defense. This is probably the main reason I'm drawn towards Krav Maga.





> Krav Maga if they have it where I live, but I doubt it.



Krav does actually use kicking techniques from Tae Kwon Do, but as you can work out from my comments if you didn't already know, it gives you a lot more than that.

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## ninja9578

> The problem I find with most martial arts from a self-defense (not as a sport) viewpoint is that they are limiting. Take Judo for example, you're basically limiting yourself to throws and various grapples and locks. I'm not denying that these are effective techniques but why limit yourself to that. What happens if your arms were injured, or space was so confined that you couldn't throw an opponent (or even kick them). The techniques from most martial arts would be useless.



Actually, it's a common misconception that if you get in close to a martial artist, he becomes less dangerous.  It's actually the exact opposite.  The closer you get, the more you're going to get hurt.  There is no stronger hand technique then an elbow strike.

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## Unelias

> Actually, it's a common misconception that if you get in close to a martial artist, he becomes less dangerous.  It's actually the exact opposite.  The closer you get, the more you're going to get hurt.  There is no stronger hand technique then an elbow strike.



Also when you are in close combat the winner is the one who acts first. Everything becomes so insanely fast not even honed reflexes can save you from all the strikes, eventually you will eat one. Like ninja said, elbow strikes comes with such a speed and with force that has whole body behind it. Well, you really don't wanna take that shattering force on your jaw.

For self-defence you should train to use your techniques so that you can do it with as small motion as possible and in limited space  :smiley:

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## Photolysis

> Actually, it's a common misconception that if you get in close to a martial artist, he becomes less dangerous. It's actually the exact opposite. The closer you get, the more you're going to get hurt. There is no stronger hand technique then an elbow strike.



You're right but only if this person has trained to use elbow strikes properly. And Judo (for example) certainly does not. Many martial art techniques are ineffective in cramped conditions, that is my point (and so those people who don't know any effective techniques would be less dangerous). Yes, anyone can throw an elbow in the same way that anyone can throw a punch but there's a large difference between the two.

That's what I was saying when it comes to limiting yourself.

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## Unelias

> You're right but only if this person has trained to use elbow strikes properly. And Judo (for example) certainly does not. Many martial art techniques are ineffective in cramped conditions, that is my point (and so those people who don't know any effective techniques would be less dangerous). Yes, anyone can throw an elbow in the same way that anyone can throw a punch but there's a large difference between the two.
> 
> That's what I was saying when it comes to limiting yourself.



I agree with the limit thing you say  :smiley:  I have always disliked concept of different styles. In the end we all fight in a same way. I train only things that I know/believe to work  :smiley:

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## ninja9578

> You're right but only if this person has trained to use elbow strikes properly. And Judo (for example) certainly does not. Many martial art techniques are ineffective in cramped conditions, that is my point (and so those people who don't know any effective techniques would be less dangerous). Yes, anyone can throw an elbow in the same way that anyone can throw a punch but there's a large difference between the two.
> 
> That's what I was saying when it comes to limiting yourself.



There's probably 1000lb of force difference between an untrained attackers elbow and a well trained martial artist's elbow.  A Judo trained martial artist wouldn't require an elbow to injure someone in close combat.  Judo practitioners are most dangerous when you get in close.

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## theSheep

I do Judo and I love it... I really want to try kyokushin though. My friend tells me they combine really well...... =D

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## edge0125

wow this thread is funny, ninja9578 is speaking like hes an expert or something, he's probably never even trained before.  

Seriously whats up with you and tiger claws, come on man that dont work.  You would get your head kicked off your shoulders before you got close enough to tiger claw someone with actual knowledge.

I trained in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai and wrestling for the past year; we roll everyday, and we spar everyday; thats how you learn.  If your close enough to "tiger claw" my face, then your close enough for me to kick you in the face.


btw elbow strikes, its all about technique; but someone who hasn't trained can still throw a solid elbow strike.

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## Ward

Every time I log on I have been trying to think of how to express myself in this thread.

Now I can just say that I agree with edge0125 on all points.

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## theSheep

> There's probably 1000lb of force difference between an untrained attackers elbow and a well trained martial artist's elbow.  A Judo trained martial artist wouldn't require an elbow to injure someone in close combat.  Judo practitioners are most dangerous when you get in close.



I agree, but I find it particularly hard to close distances when I'm fighting karate people.

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## tkdyo

> wow this thread is funny, ninja9578 is speaking like hes an expert or something, he's probably never even trained before.  
> 
> Seriously whats up with you and tiger claws, come on man that dont work.  You would get your head kicked off your shoulders before you got close enough to tiger claw someone with actual knowledge.
> 
> I trained in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai and wrestling for the past year; we roll everyday, and we spar everyday; thats how you learn.  If your close enough to "tiger claw" my face, then your close enough for me to kick you in the face.
> 
> 
> btw elbow strikes, its all about technique; but someone who hasn't trained can still throw a solid elbow strike.



you've been rolling around for a year and think you can talk down someone else like that?  In his post he said "if you are close enough to throat punch someone" not try to get that close, in fact he said a few posts up its most dangerous when you are in that close.  

The only way you are going to kick someone in the head if they are close enough to tiger claw is with a well placed front kick to the chin, since you can draw your thigh to your chest first, I know cause Ive done it.  But it is uber predictable to a trained fighter when they see that knee rise, so why do it?  Go to the knee or the stomach where they are more vulnerable at that time. and you can use more than one kick.

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## Unelias

> wow this thread is funny, ninja9578 is speaking like hes an expert or something, he's probably never even trained before.



From what he has been saying untill now I am greatly convinced that he has indeed trained and top of all has broad and realistic knowledge of martial arts and self-defence.




> Seriously whats up with you and tiger claws, come on man that dont work.  You would get your head kicked off your shoulders before you got close enough to tiger claw someone with actual knowledge.



You are basically saying that eye gouging, one of the most simplest things you can do a person, doesn't work? Especially, when in ground and wrestling you can tear peoples eyes off almost any time you want. Tiger claw isn't some fancy kung fu technique, it just refers to the type of fist you are using while executing the strike. Ever wondered why fish hooking, biting and eye gouging are fouls? Because they are brutal and effective.





> I trained in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai and wrestling for the past year; we roll everyday, and we spar everyday; thats how you learn.  If your close enough to "tiger claw" my face, then your close enough for me to kick you in the face.



Good, keep it up. I have trained those two you first mentioned a lot longer than you. I hope you truly mean "kick in the face" just so you would sound tough, since kicking in the face in all distances is the hardest thing against skilled opponent. If you train muay thai and BJJ as you say you would know since they both are centered in close combat distance. But yes, year is only year. Is this year your only experience on martial arts?




> btw elbow strikes, its all about technique; but someone who hasn't trained can still throw a solid elbow strike.



Of course they can. Everyone can kick you, everyone can punch you, everyone can strangle you. But a punch or elbow strike that is thrown by mere hand and doesn't have body behind it is weak. 





> I agree, but I find it particularly hard to close distances when I'm fighting karate people.



If you are referring mostly sport karate, which has nothing else than long distance as viable distance, it is easy to close it and take them down. In traditional karate there are usually medium distance too, but rarely even then they are able to fight in close distance or grappling distance.

As long as you limit your training you will lose to those who don't. On top of that, long distance is in my opinion the distance that doesn't have very high priority. You cannot land a single technique from long distance in a match where you both are alert and experienced and in self-defence, the situation begins usually a lot closer and will get a lot closer in a flash.





> Every time I log on I have been trying to think of how to express myself in this thread.
> 
> Now I can just say that I agree with edge0125 on all points.



Try to find a personal expression too, good to hear more comments  :smiley:  have you trained/do you train martial arts?

----------


## ninja9578

> wow this thread is funny, ninja9578 is speaking like hes an expert or something, he's probably never even trained before.



I'm a third degree black belt and a teacher. 





> Seriously whats up with you and tiger claws, come on man that dont work.  You would get your head kicked off your shoulders before you got close enough to tiger claw someone with actual knowledge.



You get your leg up that high while sparring me I'm going to grab it and have you in a knee bar so fast it'll make your head spin.  A tiger claw is one of the most useful technique in real-world self defense.  It's illegal in the UFC because it's so effective.





> btw elbow strikes, its all about technique; but someone who hasn't trained can still throw a solid elbow strike.



True, but it's still all about technique.  Throw it poorly and you'll daze someone, throw it well and you'll knock them out cold.


Here's a piece of master/student advice: Don't talk down to your seniors.  It's pretty obvious who knows a lot about martial arts and who doesn't.  One year of Mauy Thai and JJ isn't enough to talk about martial arts.  Unelias, tkdyo, and myself all have more than a decade of training.

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## Photolysis

> There's probably 1000lb of force difference between an untrained attackers elbow and a well trained martial artist's elbow. A Judo trained martial artist wouldn't require an elbow to injure someone in close combat. Judo practitioners are most dangerous when you get in close.



And as I stated, what happens when you're in such a confined space that the throws and pins of judo are impossible to use? When kicks are impossible amd you are only limited to elbow strikes, knee strikes, and headbutts? Judo does not teach strikes, and whilst I'm sure a practitioner would have a greater understanding of how to generate force, they are not trained to use elbow strikes.

If you were attacked in a very cramped alley, what are you going to say? "Excuse me sir, but can we go somewhere more open where I can make use of my Judo training to defend myself?". I'm not denying Judo is effective, the fact that many martial arts take the techniques and reuse them is testament to this. But Judo by it's nature limits what you can do, and this means that there are real world conditions under which you will be helpless, or otherwise at a disadvantage.

Do you see my point now about Judo being limiting by it's nature? If you invest all your training in learning a move, or type of move which (under certain real world conditions) you cannot use, then if you are ever in a position where you need to defend yourself and only have these techniques available, you will be unable to use your martial art to defend yourself. In the same way that if you only knew striking attacks and came up against an armoured opponent such as a samurai (which is why Judo was invented if my memory serves me), you would be helpless.

(And I do appreciate Judo is a sport and there are other martial arts out there which are not, but we're talking self defense here)

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## ninja9578

Judo came out of samurai combat, the sport version is not real judo.  Judo's chokes and arm locks will still work in very close quarters.  Hip throwing someone into a wall is just as effective, if not more so, than throwing them to the ground.

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## Unelias

Still I would recommend using jujutsu for selfdefence since jj techniques usually are more suitable to use in self-defence than judo. Of course judo techniques can be applied in a same way with minor adjustements  :smiley: 

But yes, judo is quite limited in ways of receiving strikes and kicks. At least the one I see trained in most of the dojos. Exceptions might be too, naturally.

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## ninja9578

Judo doesn't implement kicks and punches because when Judo was created, it was for use against armoured soldiers.  Kicking a fully armoued soldier does nothing  :smiley:

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## edge0125

> You get your leg up that high while sparring me I'm going to grab it and have you in a knee bar so fast it'll make your head spin.  A tiger claw is one of the most useful technique in real-world self defense.  It's illegal in the UFC because it's so effective.



See there you go speaking nonsense again.  Nobody that's actually trained would throw a leg kick out of nowhere; you set it up with punches etc.. 

And also there's no way you can get a knee bar from a just holding my leg, thats nonsense; you can try jumping and trying a flying knee bar, but realistically you it doesnt work that way; if i had someones leg then i would go for a takedown instantly and move on from there, then its my world.

btw i agree eye gouge is effective; we learned some in BJJ; now tiger claw is nonsense.

btw i do have respect for others; but i tend to call people out on there BS

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## tkdyo

lol, dude, he said if you get it up that high, then you say leg kick....

also there is a wonderful sambo throw that involves catching a high kick, taking the person down and being set up for a knee bar...you simply proved his point more.

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## ninja9578

> See there you go speaking nonsense again.  Nobody that's actually trained would throw a leg kick out of nowhere; you set it up with punches etc.. 
> 
> And also there's no way you can get a knee bar from a just holding my leg, thats nonsense; you can try jumping and trying a flying knee bar, but realistically you it doesnt work that way; if i had someones leg then i would go for a takedown instantly and move on from there, then its my world.



You said you'd kick me in the head, where did the leg kick come from?  It's not hard to put someone into a knee bar if you have ahold of their leg.  One hip twist will twist the kicker's leg enough to put them off balance, pushing them will bring them to the ground on their stomach, pulling the leg to your chest and raising your hips against the knee completes the knee bar  ::?: 

I've no doubt that another master could occasionally get a high kick in against me.  You've trained for a year, you're no master.





> btw i agree eye gouge is effective; we learned some in BJJ; now tiger claw is nonsense.
> 
> btw i do have respect for others; but i tend to call people out on there BS



I can tell you're bullshitting and have no idea what you are talking about.  You completely contradicted yourself.  You said that the tiger claw is useless, but an eye gouge is effective.  You're either drunk or have no idea what a tiger claw is.  A tiger claw IS an eye gouge, what the hell did you think it was?





> also there is a wonderful sambo throw that involves catching a high kick, taking the person down and being set up for a knee bar...you simply proved his point more.



Don't know sambo, but it sound very similar to the karate technique that I explained above.

Other styles that involve a similar techniques are ju jitsu, krav maga, pankratia, and kung fu.

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## Amethyst Star

> Don't know sambo, but it sound very similar to the karate technique that I explained above.



It's a martial arts style developed by the Soviets who sent out researchers to bring in the best aspects of a number of martial arts.  According to Wikipedia:





> The word _Cambo(Sambo)_ is an acronym of *САМ*озащита *Б*ез *О*ружия (_SAMozashchita Bez Oruzhiya_) meaning "self-defense without weapons" in Russian. Sambo has its roots in Chinese Shuaijiao, Japanese judo and traditional folk styles of wrestling such as Armenian Koch, Georgian Chidaoba, Moldovan Trîntǎ, Uzbek Kurash, Mongolian Khapsagay and Azerbaijani Gulesh.



There are three varieties: sport, self-defense (civilian), and combat (military).

There are some videos out there demonstrating Sambo if you wanted to take a look.  I'd like to study it some day if I ever get the chance.

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## ninja9578

Oh, sounds cool.

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## theSheep

> And as I stated, what happens when you're in such a confined space that the throws and pins of judo are impossible to use? When kicks are impossible amd you are only limited to elbow strikes, knee strikes, and headbutts? Judo does not teach strikes, and whilst I'm sure a practitioner would have a greater understanding of how to generate force, they are not trained to use elbow strikes.
> 
> If you were attacked in a very cramped alley, what are you going to say? "Excuse me sir, but can we go somewhere more open where I can make use of my Judo training to defend myself?". I'm not denying Judo is effective, the fact that many martial arts take the techniques and reuse them is testament to this. But Judo by it's nature limits what you can do, and this means that there are real world conditions under which you will be helpless, or otherwise at a disadvantage.
> 
> Do you see my point now about Judo being limiting by it's nature? If you invest all your training in learning a move, or type of move which (under certain real world conditions) you cannot use, then if you are ever in a position where you need to defend yourself and only have these techniques available, you will be unable to use your martial art to defend yourself. In the same way that if you only knew striking attacks and came up against an armoured opponent such as a samurai (which is why Judo was invented if my memory serves me), you would be helpless.
> 
> (And I do appreciate Judo is a sport and there are other martial arts out there which are not, but we're talking self defense here)



I agree with you a lot here. I can imagine how you wouldn't be able to take someone down with a hip throw if you're in the corner of a room, but more often then not (i'm just assuming here) you can just push the guy away from you (push kick?) and get him out in the open. then its all judo. I'm saying this as a fact. The most cramped space I fought someone was in a little room and I couldn't throw him (well I didn't try), then my friends broke us up in a few seconds. I didn't really get a chance....

I really want to try a striking martial art though :/

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## edge0125

ninja now youre putting words in my mouth, i never said i was an expert, i told you i've only trained for a year.  Also what i meant to say is that there are some effective eye gouge techniques out there, like chin to the eye submission from mount, and thumb to the eye from back mount.   Now tiger claw; if you're standing in front of me and you go for a tiger claw my face; then thats silly; i'ved watched mma bouts were eye gouging was legal, never seen a tiger claw, because it dont work.

Seriously shut you're eyes really hard, then try to claw your eyes.  It doesn't work; i'll repeat myself it does not work.  Ok now try a thumb to the eyes; that works

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## tkdyo

> Now tiger claw; if you're standing in front of me and you go for a tiger claw my face; then thats silly; i'ved watched mma bouts were eye gouging was legal, never seen a tiger claw, because it dont work.
> 
> Seriously shut you're eyes really hard, then try to claw your eyes.  It doesn't work; i'll repeat myself it does not work.  Ok now try a thumb to the eyes; that works



or, because they dont know how to do it properly.  tiger claw isnt just clawing at your eyes, it is a jab with your fingers.  at least the way Ive been taught, and it works just fine at the force of a jab even with eyes closed.

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## Unelias

> ninja now youre putting words in my mouth, i never said i was an expert, i told you i've only trained for a year.  Also what i meant to say is that there are some effective eye gouge techniques out there, like chin to the eye submission from mount, and thumb to the eye from back mount.   Now tiger claw; if you're standing in front of me and you go for a tiger claw my face; then thats silly; i'ved watched mma bouts were eye gouging was legal, never seen a tiger claw, because it dont work.



I still find it quite rude to say to someone who you don't know that he hasn't "probably even trained". You already made, at least for me, very poor appearance. Ninja, on the other hand, has already convinced me that he knows things. I will say nothing about his actual skill because there is no way to proof me that over internet  :smiley:  I want to spar with a man before I say nothing about actual skill. 

I agree tho with the eye gouging. But we prolly have different definition for tiger claw.  :smiley: 





> Seriously shut you're eyes really hard, then try to claw your eyes.  It doesn't work; i'll repeat myself it does not work.  Ok now try a thumb to the eyes; that works



Jab with fingers is same as normal punch but a lot faster and focuses instead of power for pure speed and small area of impact with both your own hand and the aimed area i.e eyes, throat, solar plexus. It seems we have different definitions with "tiger claw", prolly because I don't use English mainly to define fists and techniques. For me it is merely, in karate terms, nukite ( fingerstrikes) with all of its variations or a fist that is used like in this picture. Palm striking to the chin and fingers curved so they can reach eyes if there is a need to be that brutal. Of course, if you have long nails you can "claw" eyes even if they are closed. But if eyes are closed you have no need of clawing them because you can do something else because the opponent sees nothing.

Good martial artist goes with the flow in the fight and has large repertuary of techniques so he can switch immediatly to another thing if he sees something doesn't work  :smiley: 

http://www.knucklebutty.com/userimages/S4010488.JPG

A bit how the person hosting the same website defines tiger claw 




> "The tiger claw is a great shot and can be used in multiple ways. Imagine a boxer throwing a right cross but with the hand cocked back like the chinjab. Again hitting with the heel of the palm but this time the target is anywhere on the body (idealy the face/head area) repeating the strikes with the same hand or using them both as a "blitz" type of attack the tiger claw is one of the best strikes ever developed."



Every long trained martial artist knows that palm is a lot deadlier weapon than hitting with knuckles on your fist. However, applying a palm strike is a bit more complicated than simple punching  :smiley:  of course, the smaller is the strike area, the more powerful is the damage it usually causes when thinking about strikes we can do without any weapon.

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## ninja9578

> ninja now youre putting words in my mouth, i never said i was an expert, i told you i've only trained for a year.  Also what i meant to say is that there are some effective eye gouge techniques out there, like chin to the eye submission from mount, and thumb to the eye from back mount.   Now tiger claw; if you're standing in front of me and you go for a tiger claw my face; then thats silly; i'ved watched mma bouts were eye gouging was legal, never seen a tiger claw, because it dont work.
> 
> Seriously shut you're eyes really hard, then try to claw your eyes.  It doesn't work; i'll repeat myself it does not work.  Ok now try a thumb to the eyes; that works



Umm... the contact points of a tiger claw are the thumb and index finger.  And I have no doubt that I could get one through in a fight.  I've scored palm strikes against 5th and 6th degree black belts and the execution is almost identical.

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## DashEternity

yo, anybody train Wing Chun here? I've been in for about 7 months, still a novice of course, but I'm learning a lot. And don't worry, I won't make any absurd comments to the veterans here, because I'm no master, and I know it.

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## Unelias

Btw ninja, I watched some of the videos you have posted  :smiley:  I just became curious that there seems to be lots of 3+ dan ranked people there, who however are not techniqually or tactically very smooth. Or at least what I am used to expect from someone who has 2 dan or higher. Around here getting higher than 3 dan usually means that you must be active in spreading and developing the art.

Do you use traditional eastern style with belts or something else?  :smiley:  Since often in Japan you can have your black belt in couple of years, since it means nothing more than mastery over basics. Heck, I have even seen 14 year olds with black belt, which I find a bit strange. Even though belts are highly relative  i.e I have compaired our belt ranking to other styles and you need to do lot of work here to get belts  :smiley:  I have also seen lots black belt people who has technique level of our orange or green belt.

But well its only a belt  :smiley:  unlike high percentance of people think, the main function of belt is to keep your clothes in order  :vicious: 

How long does it usually take for example to get yellow belt as beginner?

To Dash Eternity : I have never trained any kung fu discipline regularly, with an exception of tai chi.. Yet, I am greatly interested wing chun's way of trapping hands and closing distances  :smiley:  It has helped me to improve my combat eye and reflexes. Also, kung fu's training methods are interesting, although great amount them are too traditional for my interests. There are still many great exercises I have snatched from kung fu  :smiley:

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## DashEternity

That's really cool Unelias, and yes, Wing Chun is all about efficiency, that's one reason I enjoy it, because I love artistic movement, but when I'm fighting I want it to be effective, not just pretty. I believe that's the beauty of having so many martial arts, is that we can all learn from each other. 

Actually, Wing Chun is very relatable to your points on the belt system, since it has none. We believe that it is impossible to become "perfect" or become the "best" at a certain art(unless you're grandmaster Yip Man), thus the hierarchy functions as a family, with more experienced practitioners being "Si Hing"(older brother), rather than a political belt system, and to me it is very refreshing.

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## ninja9578

The masters in those videos are of the tae kwon do system that I worked with during college.  It was traditional TKD, not sport TKD, so they're experts on self defense, which makes them less fluid during sparring.  Real life situations are over in 10 seconds, a minute long sparring match isn't what they specialize in.

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## Ward

> The masters in those videos are of the tae kwon do system that I worked with during college.  It was traditional TKD, not sport TKD, so they're experts on self defense, which makes them less fluid during sparring.  Real life situations are over in 10 seconds, a minute long sparring match isn't what they specialize in.



Just 1 Punch KO the robbers, amirite?

ninja, I do not know if you are a good fighter or not but everything you have posted in this thread has led me to believe that you are not.

The way you completely write off untrained fighters seems delusional. No amount of training can prepare you to "easily" defeat two opponents, especially when you consider that there is no such thing as an average human being. You also say that instead of giving someone a "killshot to the throat" (lol) it is a simple matter of aiming higher for an eye gouge, as if you can nonchalantly perform any technique at will. The way you speak tells me that you have no experience in actually applying these techniques against a resisting opponent.

Then you make excuses for third Dan black belts who apparently have sloppy technique. I have not seen the videos but based on what Unelias has posted, I trust his opinion. A third Dan "master" unable to step up to a ONE MINUTE sparring session? Cuz that's like a long time, rite? Why is he ranked so high?

Even your martial arts history is fantasy. Judo was not created to fight samurais. The founder of Judo, Jigoro Kano was only eight years old when the dismantling of the samurai caste began. Judo was created because Kano realized that by removing some techniques in ju-jutsu, his students could practice at full intensity which would make them more effective in combat than ju-jutsu artists who practiced "deadly" techniques on compliant or lightly resisting partners.

I want to add that stating there is a 1000lbs difference between a trained and untrained fighter's elbow is ridiculous. If you are going to bring numbers into a conversation you should research them.

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## panta-rei

Wow, Ward... That was a bad move. 

Enough training can easily teach you to defeat more than one enemy... Ignoring Asian arts, the Military's Special Ops soldiers are taught to fight in every situation, from armed to unarmed, from one person to ten. They are taught to easily defeat more than one person. An average human being is easily determined... Weight around 200 pounds, IQ of 100, age depending on region, but since its a fight, around 30. And if someone has their neck unblocked, they usually have thier face open for attack too. And an eye-gouge or a kill-shot to the throat(I knife hand toward the jugular can do this, as well as a good punch to the larynx) use only one hand, so you could easily do either.

Because they are taking someone down in a self defense style. Using the attackers moment for their favor, not fighting back and fourth. Its not that they _can't_ do a minute long spar, they don't need to.

Jujutsu was a technique against samurai, and Judo was a revision of it. Judo strived to get the person on the ground, so they could do jujutsu moves to disable the opponent.

And thats a 1000 pounds of force, which is actually quite accurate. someone who is trained to hit hard over and over will develop stronger muscles and harder bone. What your saying is that a well trained boxer hits just as hard as a random person.

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## Ward

What a romanticized view of SpecOps training. I can not speak for exactly what soldiers are taught as I have never been through the training but I do recall the USMC saying something that amounts to them being useless without their rifle. Realistically, if you are without a weapon on a battlefield or any combat situation where your opponents are armed or outnumber you, you are pretty much screwed.

This seems like common sense but I welcome any veteran to put me in my place if I am wrong.

What I meant by there being no average human was that there are so many variables in a fight, from what your opponent is wearing to what kind of mood he is in to his possible high school wrestling experience, that speaking of averages is asinine.

The important point is why ju-jutsu was revised. That point explains my entire philosophy on the martial arts and my biggest problem with this thread.

And I keep seeing the word "easily" in this thread, like anybody who has trained is fucking Neo.





> Because they are taking someone down in a self defense style. Using the attackers moment for their favor, not fighting back and fourth. Its not that they _can't_ do a minute long spar, they don't need to.



This does not address the fact that a third Dan master's technique was called into question.





> And thats a 1000 pounds of force, which is actually quite accurate. someone who is trained to hit hard over and over will develop stronger muscles and harder bone. What your saying is that a well trained boxer hits just as hard as a random person.



No. I am saying that claiming to be an expert and then pulling numbers out of your ass does not help to convince me that you are not full of shit.

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## panta-rei

> What a romanticized view of SpecOps training. I can not speak for exactly what soldiers are taught as I have never been through the training but I do recall the marines saying something that amounts to them being useless without their rifle. Realistically, if you are without a weapon on a battlefield or any combat situation where your opponents are armed or outnumber you, you are pretty much screwed. This seems like common sense but I welcome any veteran to put me in my place if I am wrong.



The Marines aren't the same as SpecOps. 
And many martial arts show ways to either grab the blunt weapon, or the carrying arm as to disarm an opponent.






> What I meant was that there are so many variables in a fight, from what your opponent is wearing to what kind of mood he is in to his possible high school wrestling experience, that speaking of averages is asinine.
> 
> And I keep seeing the word "easily" in this thread, like anybody who has trained is fucking Neo.



Yes, but most don't make a huge difference. 
But a good artist can take out a person in one strike. That seems easily to me.





> This does not address the fact that a third Dan master's technique was called into question.



It was called into question because it wasn't what U was used to. And he didn't mean it malignantly.





> The important point is why ju-jutsu was revised. That point explains my entire philosophy on the martial arts and my biggest problem with this thread.



It was revised to focus more on the life style related to it, and the use of more human weaknesses. (joints)






> No. I am saying that claiming to be an expert and then pulling numbers out of your ass does not help to convince me that you are not full of shit.



Ninja didn't say he was an expert, but he is well trained.
And finding an exact number will be difficult, since each art is different.

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## Unelias

Flames flames flames... Cool down guys a bit, please.

I will post more after I get back from my cruise trip  :smiley:

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## Ward

I am not going to dilute my argument trying to cut down your straw men. You will not understand how deluded you are until your one punch knockout falls flat and you get your shit rocked.

I just wanted to inject a dose of reality into this conversation which edge was too crude and Unelias too respectful to do.

To reiterate my points,
1. A fighter that trains full contact with safe techniques will have an advantage over a fighter that trains semi contact or completely compliant with crippling or deadly techniques. Knowing a technique is not the same as applying it in a fight.

2. Never underestimate an opponent even if they are untrained. Nothing about a fight is easy.

3. Martial arts training does not give you the power to defeat multiple opponents or knock somebody out in one strike. One should never anticipate the ideal outcome of a technique.



Unelias, I know that I am being very abrasive but I believe that *there is absolutely no room for bullshit when talking about self defense*.

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## Unelias

I believe I haven't said anything about self-defence that is bullshit.

My martial arts training is completely centered on self-defence, coupled with full contact sparring. Believe me when I say, I take self-defence very seriously and I don't know that what I have said that you consider as bullshit. Please quote those things and we can talk them over more clearly. 

I have not said fighting was easy. I consider every opponent as potentially dangerous or deadly. Even the beginners who have trained only half a month can hurt me if I get careless or too proud. 

I do jobs as a bouncer and I know that there is no safe side in combat. The highest form of your requirements in my style is an ability to fight in all situations. It is the general aim. Therefore, one of the hardest things is more than one opponent.

I agree with your point about applying a techique. Take wrestling moves. They are easy to train and remember but to actually remember and succesfully perform those moves under stress and with a guy who is double of your weight and has a killing intention. Even the mere adrenaline makes you remember about 15 moves out of 200 you might know. That is why self-defence should often be trained under extreme stress and when you are dead tired.

To your other point as I said above *I* have never ever underestimated an opponent when I fight.

While it gives you the tools to do so and the knockout isn't that hard once you get the possibility to do so, I agree that many people in martial world have unrealistic and romaticized ideas about what they do. You can check what I said about good martial artist before.





> *Good martial artist goes with the flow in the fight and has large repertuary of techniques so he can switch immediatly to another thing if he sees something doesn't work*



I see if I can someday post videos of our trainings. I have no material right now, I am sorry.

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## Ward

Unelias, you have misunderstood me. I agree with the majority of the things you have posted in this thread and I respect your opinion as a fighter. My comment was to explain why I seemed to be posting flames. I do not agree with what some other members had posted and I can not tolerate bullshit when talking about self defense simply because bad advice can get somebody killed.

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## Unelias

Good then I understand your point. However, I do not personally like when people are unpolite. While Edge0125 was the one who started very bluntly his contribution to this thread and you said you completely agree with him.

Apologies for my own part and for my misundertanding.

Let's try to keep the thread constructive. I love to talk and exchange thoughts, especially in martial arts subject. I write my comments when I get back, so probably saturday evening or such  :smiley:

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## tkdyo

Ward, you are correct that most people are not going to get knocked out from one punch, but that is why most self defence classes teach you to go for more vital areas.  I dont believe Ninja ever said that a self defense situation would take 10 seconds from a punch, I think he meant as in if you dont do something that quick the opponent will especially if they have a weapon.  

I dont think its bullshit to say that someone who has trained for a while should be able to only cripple and not kill.  However, if the opponent has a killing intent, I suppose why pussy foot around it right?  Im sorry but a knuckle punch to the throat is quite capable of killing and I wouldnt do that to someone unless they had the intent to kill.  However I would still lightly hit it if the oppertunity presented itself. 

Also, of course nothing is guarunteed but most classes at least teach you the best course of action when facing multiple people, hell, at my balck belt test I had to defend myself from three people.

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## DashEternity

damn, this thread isn't titled " Heated argument about martial arts."
I'm out of here...

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## Unelias

Discussion tends to get heated when it is about fighting. That is just the way it is  :smiley: 

By the way, I am a bit amazed about how in many martial art styles, while sparring, people only move back and forth. I see that even on people who are supposedly black belts or trained over 5 years. For me, it is beginner way of acting in combat that bases on human basic instinct : something attacks, move back. 

I try to get that out from my trainees at least in orange belt. Why always move back when you can move to sides, straight against or to the corners. You get out of the harms way ( because rarely nobody attacks with single attack) and you get to position yourself to better angle and get better changes to perform simultaneous evasion and counterattack. It is same kind of basic mistake like lowering guard from your head, not looking into your opponents eyes, standing with straight legs, forgetting flowing legwork or turning your back to enemy etc.

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## tkdyo

^I was taught to look at my opponents torso because anything with any kind of power will require hip or shoulder movement even if it is slight.  It has worked extrodinairly well for me in reading peoples moves.

but on angles I completely agree.  I only move straight back if I dont have enough time for anything else, always try to circle when attacking or defending!

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## Unelias

I don't usually have very strict opinions in any matter, but for me a person who doesn't have guts looking into eyes of his/hers opponent is already lost. 

You can see every movement from eyes though, eyes always give you off. Also, I wouldn't ever give up the psychological factor in combat. While it is true you can see things from hip, it is easy to throw a jab or finger thrust with mere hand if you know your opponent is looking at hips  :smiley: 

Sorry, but this is absolute for me. I have to remind my trainees many times about it.

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## tkdyo

I actually do plan for people like that.  I look in to their eyes before the fight, but if I see they are trying to read me by my eyes during combat, I misdirect my attack with where my eyes look, I think its easier to fake like that then with your whole body.  Then again, I have very good body awareness and I know a lot of people cant do that.

I normally look right at the chest, and if they try to throw weaker things that dont involve shoulders or hips, I have my peripheral vision.  

I do not think one way is more right though, just what works for the individual.

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## Ward

I always keep my eyes fixed on the chest of my opponent with my peripheral vision wide open. The first thing I was taught was to keep my chin tucked and it always seemed easier to stare into the chest rather than force my eyes to look up into the eyes. Besides that, I think a fighter's tells are easier to read consistently from body movement than from eye movement and anybody good will know not to look where they attack anyway.

As for the psychological battle of using eye contact, I am weak in that respect. However, I can choose to not play that game so it is not a big problem for me.

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## Unelias

IF you have problems with remembering good guard, it might be easier to watch chest or such. But when you are in situation that flows constantly, you really have to watch higher. You can see everything when you look into the eyes. Also when doing that you can offer your forehead instead of nose and jaw, since forehead is a lot stronger in case you get get hit.





> Besides that, I think a fighter's tells are easier to read consistently from body movement than from eye movement and anybody good will know not to look where they attack anyway



I didn't mean they would look WHERE they attack. You need just to know WHEN they attacks, after that you need only know which part of body and which side is going to attack.  :smiley:  when you gonna launch strong and fast technique, your eyes always signal it. They are very little signs that you can learn to read trough practice. Also, in self-defence it is very important to watch eyes to know the changing of feelings i.e mild anger, rage, fear.

For the psychological factor, I have never, ever lost to a figher who looks somewhere else than my eyes. I can tell that many people have a problem looking into my eyes outside fighting too, because I tend to look directly into the eyes and I don't blink often ^^

But what really annoys me is when people look into legs. That is the worst thing I can think of.

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## tkdyo

lol, who have you met that looks at legs?

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## Unelias

Taek won do blackbelts, jeet kune do trainees, kickboxers, savate guys, karate guys. 

Mostly guys who train arts which emphazize on kicking. I have seen it lot.  :tongue2:  but they usually learn to watch into the eyes when they get their jaw or nose broken couple of times.

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## ninja9578

> karate guys.



 ::?:   I look at the eyes or the chest, I teach my students to do the same.

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## Unelias

I wasn't offending you or any karate trainee in particular, I also train something that could be classified as karate, even though we have strayed very far from karate  :smiley:  I just meant to show that it is fairly common phenomenon, and exists almost in all styles.

Even though I have never seen a NHB figher who wouldn't look into the eye. At least the ones I have matched.  :smiley:

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## tkdyo

Jeet Kun Do isnt even suppose to be an actual art, lol.  But it is a philosophy which most schools should really pay more attention to.

edit:  I love Bruce's book but please dont call him a plagerist, most people who bother to read the front would know that it is in fact a book which collects Bruce's favorite philosophies and styles, he never claims to have originated them.

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## Unelias

Yes I am aware that jeet kune do and Bruce's idea is to have no set style or way of doing things  :smiley:  and I respect his work in that field, after all, I believe it was one of the first events that started current thinking in martial arts. 

But still it is very popular among those who don't have much actual sparring experience  :smiley:  

Ps. I cannot imagine how someone could call Bruce "plagiarist". Every human fights the same, there is no idea keep techniques that don't work. At least Bruce was clever and brave enough do to that. In his time it must have been pretty hard since back then there as so big emphasize in "own" style and which style is the best.

But if someone does call him that, he might call me as well.

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## tkdyo

ha, yeah I know what you mean, but I have read a few reviews online where people call him a plagerist of old chinese martial arts and philosophies.  All I could think was "these are obviously the wrong people to be reviewing his book."

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## Unelias

Obviously. Or just too proud of their own style.  :tongue2:  damn I just had this seasons first trainings yesterday.. all places are stiff..  :vicious:

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## ninja9578

I don't like Bruce's idea of taking and training in what does work and omitting what doesn't.  Lots of techniques don't work, but have a training idea behind them.  I think I mentioned the jumping tornado kick before.  Utterly useless for fighting, amazing for developing coordination and balance.  I think that Bruce Lee was ignorant to this because he already had the coordination and balance that he needed.

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## tkdyo

I dont think he ever said to omit them from training, he did a lot of flying kicks too, I think he just means in a real situation.

Ure:  lol, stiff joints, I get to feel those soon, but I still have them from some hardcore skating the other day.  The one bad thing about break, lol.

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## Unelias

Maybe but he often stated that his roots were in Wing Chun Fu and that he has adopted lots of training methods from there. People were quite clever when they developed all these methods that don't use any equipment.

While old arts tend to have good training methods, they should be not digested very eagerly just because they have done it before like that. Take an example of traditional karate style of punching. Long stance is very good of developing your legs and grounding, and the punch style is good for learning how to correctly use your hips. Too bad that it destroys your lower back after decades of training and is quite unwieldy as actual technique.

About tornado kick, I believe it is jumping reverse roundhouse kick with turn? ( Oh god damn I hate to explain techniques in English  :tongue2: ) 

They were included in our 1 dan examinations ,at least couple years ago, just because they are quite difficult to techniqually execute. I am not sure are they still. They can help someone to indeed make their balance better and increase coordination. But I'd say only eager youngsters are very fond of training them. We have much of older people training so it is not very handy. I think there are better and safer ways for all ages to develope balance.

Of course, in styles that kick a lot that might be a good way to train at the same time.

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## ninja9578

> About tornado kick, I believe it is jumping reverse roundhouse kick with turn? ( Oh god damn I hate to explain techniques in English )



That's the one.  Then explain it in korean Ee Dan Dwi Anesuro Pakuro Chagi  :tongue2:

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## Unelias

I think it would be tobi-ushiromawashigeri for us  :tongue2:  can you say approximatetly how many single techniques are required for your yellow belt?  :smiley:  anyones opinion would be good!

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## tkdyo

hmm, ours had orange in between white and yellow...so lets see that means..about 20 techniques...if you count punch and cross and smililarly a kick from the front or back as seperate techniques.

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## ninja9578

> I think it would be tobi-ushiromawashigeri for us  can you say approximatetly how many single techniques are required for your yellow belt?  anyones opinion would be good!



Uh... let's see  ::D: 
front punch, reverse punch, chop, front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, low block, high block, inside outside block, outside inside block, open handed block.

12

plus front stance, back stance, and horse stance and 3 forms.

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## Ward

I am curious as to what everyone's training schedule looks like. My ideal week looks like this:

Monday - Cardio workout 6:30am, Muay Thai 5:30pm to 7:30pm
Tuesday - Kickboxing 12:00noon to 1:00pm, weight training 8:30pm
Wednesday - Kickboxing 12:00noon to 1:00pm, teaching boxing 4:00pm to 5:00pm
Thursday - Kickboxing 12:00noon to 1:00pm, weight training 8:30pm
Friday - Cardio workout 6:30am, Muay Thai 6:30pm to 7:30pm
Saturday and Sunday -  Lots of sleep, lots of food, stretching, and light cardio.

Cardio usually means running, jumping rope, burpees, or rounds on the heavy bag (I have one in my apartment). Weight training always means a combination of squats, lunges, dead lifts, pull ups, bench press, and shoulder press.

I am good at sticking to it but as you all know life is less than ideal. I would also like to add that I am searching for a night job so that I can take up Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Judo.

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## ninja9578

An ideal week for me:

Sunday: Rest
Monday: 12 miles, Chest/Abs, Forms
Tuesday: 6 miles, Arms, Sparring
Wednesday: Sprints, Back/Abs, Forms
Thursday: 18 miles, Legs, Sparring
Friday: 3 miles, Arms/Abs, Forms
Saturday: 12 miles, Chest/Back, Sparring

Weather plays a big role in my running though  :Sad:

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## Universal Mind

> Tell me about martial arts.



They turn people into complete bad asses.

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## Ward

51 miles a week. My knees would be destroyed! How much do you weigh/how much do you eat?

Skipping can be an alternative to running when the weather is crap. It is easier than running but you can add something like three minute intervals of burpees for every five minutes of skipping to make it harder.

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## Unelias

> Uh... let's see 
> front punch, reverse punch, chop, front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, low block, high block, inside outside block, outside inside block, open handed block.
> 
> 12
> 
> plus front stance, back stance, and horse stance and 3 forms.



That is very typical requirements for yellow belt. Ten years backwards we had similar kind of requirements  :smiley: 

Now we have almost are all techniques made by drills so we have about 14 drills for yellow belt. If we count them as single techniques it somewhat near 100 or such. So it is approximatetly half a year training so you get your yellow belt  :smiley:  but of course those include all kinds of techniques.

We have most of the techniques at lower belts since from green to brown most of the requirements are just random situations and you gotta know what to do. 

I can make this more clear if you want  :smiley: 

Ah my training schedule  :smiley:  I just kept 2 weeks off from training ( actually the only break I have in the whole year) so I haven't yet made new schedule. But I can show my last year.

Last year ( I had three-shift job back then so I had to make compromises a lot. This worked pretty much if I had morning week)

*Monday* : _Usually 1h training in the morning. Basic techniques, legwork and some muscle work ( push-ups, crunches etc). At 17 pm I went to teach for 1.5 h and usually stayed 1-2h after. Went to box with boxers or doing bag training coupled with some stamina training. Before sleeping about 1h light punching and kicking training + push-ups etc + relaxation/ meditation._
*
Tuesday* : _This was my "lightest" day. Again 1-1.5h morning same light training. No own traininings today, so I usually used day for anything else  Maybe jogged later if there was good weather. In the evening a little harder training before sleeping, mostly training memory with my techniques and drills._

*Wednesday* :_ same deal at the morning. At 17.30pm wrestling with gi for 1.5h. training ground techniques and doing very good stamina practices. After that maybe 30min-1h additional muscle workout. Only stretching before sleep or relaxation._
*
Thursday* : _Morning, the same. I spend most of my evening at teaching because I have two trainings ( juniors and teens) I gotta coach. I do lots of muscle things with them so I get semi-good muscle training even when I am coaching. Sometimes I stayed after those trainings to wrestle with submission wrestlers. Before sleep some kicking training. 
_
*Friday* :_ This is the only day I didn't do much at the morning. At the evening though I usually did jogging and went to train weapon techniques and exclusively self-defence for 2h.
_
*Saturday* : _Morning workout, also went to stretch for an hour with others. Rest of the day completely free ^^_ 
*
Sunday* : _Light morning workout. At the evening I usually went to dojo @ 16 PM, did some muscular training for 45 min. Bag training for 1h, some stretching and then more technique training. After that I went to trainings for 1.5h. Before sleep heavy workout and meditation. ( That would violate tenets if I was i.e Christian, wouldn't it? ^^_

As you see I don't do weight training  :tongue2:  I have used iron bells ( or whatever they are in English) way back but I have dropped them of my schedule. 





> How much do you weigh/how much do you eat?



I weight 78kg at the moment and I eat like a pool of hungry piranhas. I don't get weight, I use energy too much :S My aim would be 84kg but I see when that happens. My fet percent is 6.7 or something. 

Believe me when I say. I EAT A LOT  ::D:  I even eat everything that should fatten you, like chocolade. But well... isn't that big of a deal  :tongue2:

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## tkdyo

mm, lets see 

Sunday:  straight stand up, not strictly muay tai though.
Monday: judo
tuesday: MMA/ cardio
wed: rest
thursday: strictly ground work and take downs
friday: mma
saturday: mma

classes are between two and three hours every time and the first half hour to hour is always cardio intensive.  sometimes I have to skip the monday class though because I have a late class at college :S

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## ninja9578

> 51 miles a week. My knees would be destroyed! How much do you weigh/how much do you eat?



I usually weight about 145, right before a marathon I'll double the milage and drop to about 135.  I eat about 8000 calories/day.

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## tkdyo

dang dude, you were built for cardio apparently.  Even when I was in soccer every day I couldnt run that much...probably why I played in the defense, lol.  more power to you man.

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## Universal Mind

> I usually weight about 145, right before a marathon I'll double the milage and drop to about 135. I eat about 8000 calories/day.



Your schedule is mind blowing.  You must be a Hell of a good distance runner.  I am curious... What is your best distance running event, and what is your best time at it?  What is your best mile or 1600 time?

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## ninja9578

I wasn't a very good miler.  My best was about 4:40, in college I specialized in the 800, my best time was low 1:50s

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## Universal Mind

> in college I specialized in the 800, my best time was low 1:50s



No shit????  That is phenomenal.  You are probably still young enough to break that 1:50 barrier and be more or less "world class".  I say go for it.

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## Sisyphus50

My brother, some of his friends and I are starting Krav Maga classes next Monday.

I've done a lot of research into it (and we've previously done Tae Kwan do training), so I'm really looking forward to it.

I'll report back in a few weeks on how it goes if anyone is interested in the discipline.

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## Sisyphus50

It's been a little longer than I anticipated, but my first impressions weren't all that great.

Perhaps it was just the teacher of the class, but he seemed to be very disrespectful to other disciplines (specifically TKD), and when it came to knife training it was just completely wrong. It was like we were being taught the BEST way to GET stabbed.

Only went for a few lessons then stopped going. I think I'll start looking for another discpline in my area soon. Perhaps Karate or BJJ.

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## ninja9578

> It's been a little longer than I anticipated, but my first impressions weren't all that great.
> 
> Perhaps it was just the teacher of the class, but he seemed to be very disrespectful to other disciplines (specifically TKD), and when it came to knife training it was just completely wrong. It was like we were being taught the BEST way to GET stabbed.
> 
> Only went for a few lessons then stopped going. I think I'll start looking for another discpline in my area soon. Perhaps Karate or BJJ.



Lots of people (including master instructors) have very poor information on TKD.  The most popular TKD is olympic style, which _is_ utterly useless for self defense, but there is another variety of TKD which is much older and just as lethal as any other style of martial arts.

Bad instructors make martial arts terrible, and they should never talk about something that they don't know about.  I never talk about other styles when I teach.

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## CoLd BlooDed

I am currently training in aikido, which I think is ideal for a beginner like myself to get familiarized in the world of martial art.  It's a great self-defense class, and I have caught on real quick.  Only Tuesdays on Thursdays, about 2-2.5 hours a class.  Eventually, once I'm comfortable where I am, I'd like to start muay thai, as I have a lot of friends who have had extensive training and they are _scary_ fighters.

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## Man of Steel

Personally, I'd like to start training in Okinawan kenpo, aikido and possibly Muay Thai or even Jeet Kune Do, if I can find an instructor around here. It's just a matter of getting my own vehicle and the time and money for lessons. Could be awhile, unfortunately.

Currently my uncle is teaching me some Okinawan kenpo and MMA; he is a third degree black belt.

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## grasshoppa

I recently started Tai Chi 2 weeks ago. It's one of the oldest martial arts, but is now promoted for the health benefits. It is considered an 'internal' style, contrary to the 'external' styles of martial arts (Karate, Judo..etc). I'm really enjoying it, my teacher seems to be very knowledgeable. So far I'm learning to do the 10 form (goes up to 108 form), and I pretty much got that down. Just need to work on my transitions from form to form and my flexibility for some of them. 

Here is a video I use as a reference outside of class if anyone wants to check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY8drFhxP4Y

It basically looks like some form of weird dancing, but you would be surprised how some of these movements can be applied to self defense.

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## CoLd BlooDed

I remember going on a field trip to Chinatown in grade 8, and we had one of two activities we could do, being tai chi and chinese symbol making.  The majority of us chose tai chi, and we were conversing with our very young looking instructor as it went along.  

At one point she asked, on the mentioning of health and the benefits of the art, 'How old do you think I am?'  We started around the 35, worked our way up to the 40s... 50s... turned out she was 60 years old.  Incredible.

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## grasshoppa

Tai Chi battles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4

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## Lëzen

I'd like to take up kendo, as no way is more noble than the way of the sword, IMHO. Only problem is, there's nowhere in town where kendo lessons are offered. I don't even think there's anywhere in the _next_ town over that offers kendo, either. Even if I were to invest in my own shinai and the appropriate protective gear, I still don't know anyone who'd be willing to train with me...except perhaps my bud Slip, but he's already a Taekwondo black belt of the second degree, so I'm sure he'd wipe the floor with me anyway.

Honestly, though, I couldn't see how kendo would be a practical choice for your typical self-defense situation, unless I want to carry a wooden stick around with me everywhere I go...and I'm pretty sure it'd be illegal to walk around in public with one of my katanas.

And yet I'd still like to learn it.

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