# Lucid Dreaming > DV Academy > Current Courses > DILD >  >  KonchogTashi's workbook

## KonchogTashi

Greetings:

*Background:* 
I am a middle aged on and off-again LD practitioner. This is my 2nd (or 3rd depending on how one counts) cycle of practice. I have had some success with LD in the past. During my first cycle of practice about 10 years ago I worked for about 2 months and ended up with 3 LDs, all DILD. During my most recent cycle I practiced for about 10 months and ended up with 17 LDs, 15 DILD and 1 WILD. 

All of my LDs end rather quickly, with the longest being perhaps 1 minute in length, the shortest 1-5 seconds. 

My motivation and sleep schedule conspired to derail my most recent cycle, although I never completely threw in the towel and quit practicing like i did in the past.  I just grew lax in my journaling and began to find my RCs were half-hearted and very habitual, I was not really developing more awareness with them.

I have recently renewed my efforts and started logging dreams or fragments each morning. I now have a solid week of journal entries with at least a fragment and sometimes 2 or 3 complete dreams per night since restarting. 


*Current Practice:*

I usually get 6.5 to 7.5 hours of sleep per night. Very rarely less and maybe once a week 8 hours. Adjusting my sleep schedule is not really an option due to work and having small children to care for. I go to sleep between 9:30 and 10:30 and get up between 5:00 and 6:00.

I journal every morning and come up with at least a fragment. Usually it is 1 fullish dream and a fragment or 2 dreams. 

I currently practice DILD with Reality Checks. When my sleep schedule allows I do brief WBTB. I have had some success with this method in the past.  

_RC Method:_ 
I periodically think:
"My eyes see forms and my ears hear sounds, my mind knows these are just like forms and sounds in a dream"  I follow this reflection up with a hand-check and nose plug, RC. and usually a "general state check", by which I mean recalling how I have arrived at my current location, recalling what I was doing a few minutes ago, etc.. I usually get 10-15 checks in per day. I have confirmed lucidity in dreams with both the the hand check and nose pinch, so I feel comfortable with both methods.

*Goals:*

reliably induce lucidity 1x per week.
lengthen the duration of lucidity. 


THANK YOU!!

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## fogelbise

Welcome to the DILD workbooks KonchogTashi! Just a quick note for tonight and perhaps FryingMan will also get a chance to chime in. I keyed in on two factors for now: LD duration and your motivation. The great news is I am positive we can get your duration up significantly and that should also give you more motivation going forward! Always remember that just because it seems like the dream is ending...it doesn't have to mean that it will!  :smiley:  Start ingraining in your thoughts that this point of the dream fading or slipping is just a transition and before you know it you will find yourself extending the dream. There are many tips out there for extending the dream like the aforementioned mindset, like keeping on the move, spinning, staying calm, catching false  awakenings (you may have way more than you realize), not focusing too long on one thing, etc...Read up on these sort of things and let us know if you have any questions.  :smiley: 

I am also middle aged by the way.

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## FryingMan

Congratulations on your return to active LD practice, KonchogTashi, and welcome to the DILD class!    Dream recall and lucid dreaming are such rewarding activities, I think nobody who really experiences them can ever stay away for long!

And let me just note that I, too, am among the "mature" crowd here on DreamViews, also middle-aged.   

You are in a great position, because you *know* you can lucid dream.   So getting back into it will be a snap for you, I'm sure.

Your regular sleep schedule is a major advantage.    (It is one of my major weaknesses -- my to-bed and out-of-bed times are all over the map).   Those times where I've been rigorous about sleep schedule have seen big boosts in LD frequency, so you're already standing in good stead in this regard.

Your steady recall is also a very good sign.   The more we feel "close" to our dreams, the closer we are to lucidity.   Something we can investigate is how to boost your recall even higher.  I'm a big fan of the notion that there is no such thing as "enough" dream recall, and that the practice of lucid dreaming involves always pushing our boundaries and abilities to higher states.    We can start with looking at the process of how you do your recall.  When you wake up (that moment where you find yourself awake), what do you do?    How much time do you spend reaching for dream memories?     Do you take any physical notes?    Do you ever notice middle-of-the-night wakings at all?

As for lucid dream length, I'm sure fogelbise and I can help you with that as well.    fogelbise noted that the "dream end" feeling need not actually mark the end of your actual dream.    This has really hit home with me this year as I experienced many false awakenings (FAs) and other lucid dream -> non-lucid dream transitions that felt very much like a "wake up" dream ending feeling.    When you think you may have awoken from a lucid dream, if you remain still and maintain a drowsy/sleepy mindset, lightly considering the dream you just had, you can fall asleep again quickly and re-enter the same dream (or start a new one).

What I've found very effective is maintaining a list of mental mini-goals of things I want to do in the dream.   A "mini-goal" can be something as simple as: trying a RC you've never tried before, exploring what's in the next room or around a corner or behind a door, or a task from the task-of-the-month thread (link below).   Maintaining these minigoals keeps you engaged and prevents you from "giving up" on the dream, it really helps in lengthening the experience.  Also, really *enjoy* the dream, look around and wonder at it.   Don't think about "I have to hurry, the dream will end soon!".   Sensei (a talented LDer here on the DV forums) found that as soon as he stopped thinking or worrying about dreams ending, paradoxically, all his LDs started to last longer and longer!      Length is also something that comes with experience.

 Participating in the "task of the month" every month is a great way to always have a set of goals on hand, and getting those nice wings next to your avatar that last for the month is a helpful motivation!  Here's this month's thread:

http://www.dreamviews.com/tasks-mont...er-2014-a.html

In terms of navigating the forums, be sure to use the "Forum / What's New" menu to find new posts, and to see activity on threads you've subscribed to.

One other thing I found incredibly helpful was to rehearse the moment of becoming lucid while awake, and make up a short ritual that you always follow.   Do something like: your favorite quick RC (e.g., nose pinch), rub your hands and count to 5, quickly pat down your chest and legs with your hands, then think about what your latest goals are.    The first time I did this in a LD resulted in my longest and most vivid LD that I had had at the time.   It was within a week or two of when I started doing those little rehearsals so it didn't take long.

Well that's a lot to take in right now so please write back if anything doesn't seem clear.   Again, welcome, and I'm sure you'll be LDing in no time!

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## KonchogTashi

> Welcome to the DILD workbooks KonchogTashi! Just a quick note for tonight and perhaps FryingMan will also get a chance to chime in. I keyed in on two factors for now: LD duration and your motivation. The great news is I am positive we can get your duration up significantly and that should also give you more motivation going forward! Always remember that just because it seems like the dream is ending...it doesn't have to mean that it will!  Start ingraining in your thoughts that this point of the dream fading or slipping is just a transition and before you know it you will find yourself extending the dream. There are many tips out there for extending the dream like the aforementioned mindset, like keeping on the move, spinning, staying calm, catching false  awakenings (you may have way more than you realize), not focusing too long on one thing, etc...Read up on these sort of things and let us know if you have any questions. 
> 
> I am also middle aged by the way.





Thanks for the quick reply!

Regarding factors leading to LDs having a short duration, I have picked up on two that seem to precipitate a quick ending. The first is excitement. I still get a bit of thrill when I recognize the dream. I have gotten better about checking this, so I feel like this one will naturally work itself out as I get more experience with lucidity.  

The second is a tendency to look at one thing for two long. My last lucid (about 10 days ago) I got wrapped into looking at my hands after a successful RC. The visual was just so amazing I could not move my attention to anything else. I need to remind myself to take in more of my environment and situation in general rather than getting completely fixated on one amazing detail.

I have tried spinning on several occasions but I have developed a bit of an aversion to this technique as it has always caused the dream to fade into blackness. I feel the motion of spinning but no new scene has ever emerged. Perhaps I am employing it too late in the dream. 

Rubbing my hands together seems to produce a slight increase in the duration of the dream. Each time I have been able to implement it the effect has been more pronounced. Building up skill with this technique was pretty much where I left off with my last streak of practice. 

Thanks once again!!

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## FryingMan

^^ Yes excitement is certainly a common factor but as you note, with experience it gets tempered.  It's always awesome to get lucid, but the heart-thumping super-excited jolt feeling does lessen over time.

As for looking at things, I think it's best not to ever let any idea enter your mind that "doing XYZ ends the dream."   Anything you believe tends to come true in a dream, this is the nature of dreaming.

If you believe doing XYZ will end the dream, it will.   If you avoid all thoughts like this and just focus on enjoying the dream, the dream will continue longer.   If you enjoy looking at things in detail, go right ahead.   Maybe give yourself a little countdown like "I'll look at this thing for 5-4-3-2-1 seconds, then I'll <do something else>"    Always look forward to doing the next thing, not in a rushed way, but keep that sense that you have an active "to do list."

Many times, lucidity results when we're close to waking up anyway, especially in new lucid dreamers, so don't think that just because you did XYZ and you woke up, that it caused you to wake up.

On the other hand, making sure you maintain awareness of the dream environment and your dream body are good ways to stay in the dream, as is moving your mind through a series of mini-goals.

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## KonchogTashi

> Congratulations on your return to active LD practice, KonchogTashi, and welcome to the DILD class!    Dream recall and lucid dreaming are such rewarding activities, I think nobody who really experiences them can ever stay away for long!
> 
> And let me just note that I, too, am among the "mature" crowd here on DreamViews, also middle-aged.   
> 
> You are in a great position, because you *know* you can lucid dream.   So getting back into it will be a snap for you, I'm sure.
> 
> Your regular sleep schedule is a major advantage.    (It is one of my major weaknesses -- my to-bed and out-of-bed times are all over the map).   Those times where I've been rigorous about sleep schedule have seen big boosts in LD frequency, so you're already standing in good stead in this regard.
> 
> Your steady recall is also a very good sign.   The more we feel "close" to our dreams, the closer we are to lucidity.   Something we can investigate is how to boost your recall even higher.  I'm a big fan of the notion that there is no such thing as "enough" dream recall, and that the practice of lucid dreaming involves always pushing our boundaries and abilities to higher states.    We can start with looking at the process of how you do your recall.  When you wake up (that moment where you find yourself awake), what do you do?    How much time do you spend reaching for dream memories?     Do you take any physical notes?    Do you ever notice middle-of-the-night wakings at all?
> ...




Thanks to you as well for your quick reply!

*Regarding my recall:* 

I feel like this is a weakness for me. I have a pretty regimented schedule and as a result I can only give recall about 10 minutes. Many times I wake up with a jumble of thoughts and impressions that immediately fade. Most of the time they do not seem to be parts of a dream, but just a mess of random, subtle, difficult to pin down thoughts. Dreams usually come after laying in bed for a few minutes and not forcing  the recall issue too much. This is what killed my motivation last time. I had a long streak of 0 recall.  As far as procedure goes, I usually wait a few minutes then type my dream or fragments into my phone. Occasionally when I start typing a fragment it becomes a dream which becomes 2. 

I have experimented with multiple wakings and found this to be helpful, but often have a lot of difficulty returning to sleep, which creates a situation more unpleasant than low recall.

I have thought about switching to a pen and paper journal as this would allow sketching and mapping, but am concerned about the extra movement involved with rolling over to write, turning on a light, finding pen, losing the notebook, having it pirated by my children, etc.. what would you suggest here?

*Regarding mini-goals:*

I like this approach. I will come up with a short list and implement it in my practice. Thanks for this great tip!

The "rehearsal" suggestion is also great. I think this will help with stabilization if I make employing a technique a default operation that occurs upon recognition of the dream state. Great advice, thanks!!

KT

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## KonchogTashi

I was awakened in the middle of the night by my oldest child. I took advantage of this by trying to recall dreams from the previous sleep cycles: no dice, just a jumble of confusion. I also practiced MILD visualizing a previous dream and setting the intention to recognize the state. I had a little trouble falling back asleep, but it was not bad, I was awake for probably 40 minutes or so. I felt like the MILD procedure went well as I was definitely in the hypnogogic state when I let the technique go.

When I woke up I had a dream to recall but lost most of it and ended up with  fragment wherein I was working with several people to refill vending machines. We were each to refill a specific machine. I know that I knew the people in the dream and that there was more to it, but all details were lost before I logged it.

following the advice of Frying man I have come up with a "recognition ritual" that I will rehearse with my daytime RCs.

1. Reality check using hand check and nose pinch. 
2. Rub hands together
3. say aloud "This dream is stable and vividly clear"

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## FryingMan

Sounds great, that's a nice "just got lucid" ritual there!

As for your recall schedule, is that 10 minutes of lying quietly in bed reviewing the memories, followed by a period of journaling?   Or 10 minutes for both mental recall and physical journaling?    Also, how do you wake up, with an alarm?   If you absolutely must have an alarm then if at all possible, find one that starts quiet and slowly builds in order to wake you as gently as possible, that can help a great deal.

As for the journaling itself, I am a big fan of voice journaling followed by a typed transcription into either the Dreamviews dream journal or a computer file.    I find that a quick summary with key concepts (who? what? where?) is enough to trigger close to full recall at a later date.  Of course, if you have the time, get as many details down as you can in addition to the key summary.

The act of reaching for the memory as you lie in bed after waking, in addition to the act of journaling strengthens and reinforces the ability to recall dreams.    If you do it consistently, over time your recall will improve.

If you don't have a coherent dream immediately in mind upon waking (often I do not, either, unless waking directly from a lucid or near-lucid), try asking yourself (even saying it quietly out loud), "What was I just dreaming about?" 

Also really effective is bed-time setting intention to remember dreams.   Repeat to yourself over and over for a minute or two, "I remember my dreams," really feel this strong intention to remember your dreams.

If you have a no-recall night, don't stress over it, there's always tomorrow, and the next night, etc.    Maintain a happy positive attitude towards your dreaming.    Being thankful for your dreams is also a great way to remember more of them.   gab likes to say "Thank you for my dreaming experiences" to her subconscious, I've done that as well and I'm sure it leads to even better results.

So those are a few more suggesionts for recall  -- the main and most important one, though, is being consistent.  Always go into every night *knowing* that you dream and that you intent to remember your dreams, and always quietly reach for those memories (ideally, before you move at all physically) every time you find yourself awake.

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## KonchogTashi

Progress update 11-14/15/16

Weekend was a tad disappointing. Friday night my sleep was destroyed repeatedly by my youngest child. Parental duties trump practice, and the end result is 0 recall. Saturday was a great day for daytime training. I logged many state checks in diverse situations and made many aspirations to apprehend the dream state. Saturday night I had a few to many cocktails with the spouse, and the end result was another night of no recall. Spouse and I enjoyed ourselves, so no regrets here.

Sunday was another day of excellent daytime practice, developing the critical mindset with state checks and making many aspirations to recognize the dream state. Sleeping conditions were much more favorable Sunday night. This paid off with a very vividly recalled set of dreams. The sequence of events is a little jumbled, but it involved multiple Halloween parties. Even got a good DC quote " you got a lot of nice stuff, are you a hobo?" I spent a while journaling this and actually stopped before I got it all down. Good stuff!

I am glad I signed up for the course as the accountability is obviously helping to build enthusiasm for practice.

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## FryingMan

All in all I'd say it sounds like a pretty good weekend!   Interruptions happen, cocktails with spouse happen, nothing wrong with that, in fact I think it's good: when one is happy and relaxed, you get better dreaming results, once the alcohol wears off, that is...Concerning alcohol,  there are tales of those who have very vivid dreams late in the morning after imbibing, I for example had my first  DEILD late in the morning of January 1st, 2014 (now that's a great way to start the year right, with a LD on Jan 1st!).  This could be a case of REM rebound, since alcohol is considered to suppress REM.

But you got right back in the saddle and had some vividly recalled dreams, so that's great!   Amidst the poor night conditions, you kept up your daytime practice.    That pattern reminds me a lot of someone I know -- me!   I'm great at daytime work but night work can be challenging, either due to conditions or poor choices (not establishing a regular sleep schedule).

Lucid dreaming is about getting many different things to all come together (awareness work, dream recall, sleep schedule, positive attitude, strong intention, etc.).   Keep working on them all, individually, and in combination, and when you hit on that mindset and practice that effectively combines them all that works for you, lucidity will grow and grow.

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## fogelbise

^^Very true. Great info from FryingMan! I am glad to hear that you also feel that the accountability of having a workbook is another positive for maintaining a workbook!  :smiley:  Great quote from your dream by the way: "you got a lot of nice stuff, are you a hobo?" Made me chuckle.

I can't think of anything to add FryingMan's great responses. Do you have any other questions so far?

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## cooleymd

I find that the longer I look at my hands at the beginning the better, but often I don't even think to get them up in time, I often realize I'm dreaming without the need for a RC





> ^^ 
> Many times, lucidity results when we're close to waking up anyway, especially in new lucid dreamers, so don't think that just because you did XYZ and you woke up, that it caused you to wake up.



This is quite true for me, I often (on weekends just before final awakening) become lucid right at the end of a cycle and I doubt anything could stabilize me.

As for hand rubbing have you ever tried to use it to escape the void.  I have done it several times,  When the world begins to fade, I rub like mad.  Three times recently I was
just too far gone, I had no fingers in one case my real hands were moving in bed before the dream PALMS could connect, in the other two cases it was a losing battle where My dream
hands (PALMS became paralyzed I was lucky if I could move a finger or two.  But in the past I just rubbed away on a few occasions and emerged into dreamscapes.  Once I made the 
mistake of thinking I don't care what dream scape comes any random one will do (I call that world MESH-KEVLAR-ARMOR under Evacuation World, it really sucked)  So at least think
of where you just were or ask for a decent one.

I also have on once occasion taken off my shoes at the beginning of a LD and managed to get quite stabilized walking in the grass and such, feels real, and great, and sets me up 
for a good 5 minutes.

Half my dreams are <1 minute the other half generally 10-20 minutes its all about stabilization.

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## KonchogTashi

> Lucid dreaming is about getting many different things to all come together (awareness work, dream recall, sleep schedule, positive attitude, strong intention, etc.).   Keep working on them all, individually, and in combination, and when you hit on that mindset and practice that effectively combines them all that works for you, lucidity will grow and grow.



This helps reinforce for me the understanding that even if one or two or more nights don't go so well, that If I continue to steadily practice, to establish and nurture habits that contribute to lucidity, then lucidity will come with increasing frequency. In short, this reminds me that that this is not something to accomplish in a week or month, but a process to engage and skill set to develop over the course of many months/years/decades/lifetimes. Thanks for your helpful encouragement!

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## KonchogTashi

> ^^Very true. Great info from FryingMan! I am glad to hear that you also feel that the accountability of having a workbook is another positive for maintaining a workbook!  Great quote from your dream by the way: "you got a lot of nice stuff, are you a hobo?" Made me chuckle.
> 
> I can't think of anything to add FryingMan's great responses. Do you have any other questions so far?



Yes, the accountability piece has definitely helped to break the malaise I was feeling in relation to LD practice. Regarding the quote, I love to recall the exact words spoken by DCs.  I always put quotes around them in my DJ. Fascinating stuff.

I have no questions so far, just waiting on the first LD of the course!

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## KonchogTashi

> I find that the longer I look at my hands at the beginning the better, but often I don't even think to get them up in time, I often realize I'm dreaming without the need for a RC



In all but a few of my LDs I spontaneously *know* that I am dreaming. I have maybe only 1 time suspected it and verified with an RC. I try to RC even if I feel I know I am dreaming just confirm and help rouse the critical/aware mindset a bit more.





> This is quite true for me, I often (on weekends just before final awakening) become lucid right at the end of a cycle and I doubt anything could stabilize me.



I suspect this is what is happening to me most of the time. I go right from lucidity to awake. 





> As for hand rubbing have you ever tried to use it to escape the void.  I have done it several times,  When the world begins to fade, I rub like mad.  Three times recently I was
> just too far gone, I had no fingers in one case my real hands were moving in bed before the dream PALMS could connect, in the other two cases it was a losing battle where My dream
> hands (PALMS became paralyzed I was lucky if I could move a finger or two.  But in the past I just rubbed away on a few occasions and emerged into dreamscapes.



I have had the experience of "feeling" the sensation of the rubbing after the dream had dissolved, it was the last thing to go. I have also had the intent to use hand rubbing to stabilize the dream but too late, my hands have already vanished.





> Half my dreams are <1 minute the other half generally 10-20 minutes its all about stabilization.



Once I get back on the induction horse, this is my priority.

THANKS!!

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress night of 11/17*

Monday was as good as it gets for me without an actual LD.

I woke up in the middle of the night briefly and felt utter discouragement at the fact that there was no dream vividly present in my mind. I briefly formed the intention to recognize and recall dreams and went back to sleep with a heavy heart.

I woke up well before my alarm with no recall, just the typical irritating jumble of confused thoughts. I struggled with it for a bit and found a brief impression which I considered not logging as it was so small. I decided against this and grabbed my phone to type down the brief fragment. Almost as soon as I started typing a very detailed recollection of several dreams scenarios appeared. I logged everything I could remember which equaled a complete dream and two pretty detailed fragments. There was actually another fragment but I could not figure out how to describe it in words so I let it go. I got a good dream quote from my wife "leave me alone, I am reciting the six-syllable mantra" and another from myself "please enjoy!". 

During the main dream I was in a museum looking at an exhibit that had artifacts from various english kings dating back to Roman rulers. They were all arranged sequentially. This has reaffirmed my thought that I should get a pen and paper journal as once again some objects appeared that I was unable to describe accurately with words, but could easily sketch. I feel sketching might help develop additional "recall muscles" by tapping into a more visual and less verbal recall. However, sketch worthy elements don't occur every night and pen and paper journaling seems a bit more complex than banging it out on my phone keyboard. Something for me to consider. 

In all, a very good night. I don't go in much for dream interpretation, but even non-lucid dreams are generally fascinating. I am looking forward to a day of good daytime training.

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## fogelbise

> I woke up well before my alarm with no recall, just the typical irritating jumble of confused thoughts. I struggled with it for a bit and found a brief impression which I considered not logging as it was so small. I decided against this and grabbed my phone to type down the brief fragment. Almost as soon as I started typing a very detailed recollection of several dreams scenarios appeared. I logged everything I could remember which equaled a complete dream and two pretty detailed fragments. There was actually another fragment but I could not figure out how to describe it in words so I let it go. I got a good dream quote from my wife "leave me alone, I am reciting the six-syllable mantra" and another from myself "please enjoy!".



Awesome! Way to snatch that recall before it was likely gone forever! I have found the same thing. As soon as I start going over what I remember it often snowballs. With practice I have learned to often trace back to transitions earlier in the dream initially forgotten and that were odd in hindsight. The more I do this the more confident I am that I will catch more "odd transition" dream sign DILDs much like other dream signs I have developed and used successfully through recall. And absolutely...in the meantime, the non-lucid dreams are also often fascinating! Keep it up...your enthusiasm is infectious!

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## FryingMan

> This helps reinforce for me the understanding that even if one or two or more nights don't go so well, that If I continue to steadily practice, to establish and nurture habits that contribute to lucidity, then lucidity will come with increasing frequency. In short, this reminds me that that this is not something to accomplish in a week or month, but a process to engage and skill set to develop over the course of many months/years/decades/lifetimes. Thanks for your helpful encouragement!



Bingo!   You are certainly welcome, but you're reaching all the right conclusions yourself with minimal nudging, so, well done!

I'm currently reading "Wherever You Go, There You Are: Mindfulness Meditation In Everyday Life" and it's really great, I highly recommend it.   The emphasis is being mindful of and completely content with where you are, right now, not stuck living in discontent over past events or looking forwards to the future for happiness, at the expense of the present moment (if only I could lucid dream every night, I'd be happy....).   The point is not to ignore the past/future, but not to let them rule your life.  

On the recall disappointment: I completely understand, but it's best not to associate negative emotions with dreaming in any way, even if the emotion is about  not getting the recall you'd like.      It's great that you persevered and came up with some dreams!

How much time do you estimate that you spent/spend generally on recall?   I sometimes will spend even 30 minutes casting my mind back for memories, if I feel that there is something more there to be found.    It's something that comes with time and experience, to get a feel for how long to do it before heading back to sleep.   Generally I do not spend that long, but I do spend more than just a moment -- usually several minutes at least.   If nothing comes, try asking yourself (even quietly vocalizing sometimes), "What was I just dreaming about?".  If you do this every time you reach for recall you're setting up a powerful association that can be very helpful in triggering dream memories.

Even if you get no recall, be happy that you've noticed a waking, as that means chance to grab some awareness as you head back to sleep which increases the chances for lucidity.

You're in a great position of knowing already that you can lucid dream.  Now it's just a matter of attention to the practice: do the daytime (awareness), do the nighttime (recall, intention, WBTB), and be patient.   Do the best as you can to maximize the conditions profitable to lucid dreaming and to have them coincide on any given night.

Really love your non-lucid dreams, since you'll most likely have a ton more of them.  Look forward to and work for the lucids, but really enjoy those non-lucids.    Be thankful for any recall at all, and set intention that you want to recall even more: longer, more detailed, more aware, and lucid.

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## cooleymd

I was just in a non-lucid where I saw my dead relative again, but no trigger  :Sad: 
to bad too because that huge bag of buttermint candy (I don't think they make the specific kind anymore)
was awesome, I think maybe I'll have to use candy to help maintain lucidity sometime, even in 
the void it would be worth staying there a long time eating those things  :smiley: 

I should have tried to read the dream label probably would have said
100% pure sugar / NO carbs / 100% unnatural  :smiley:

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress night of 11/18*

Good day followed by a good night. I felt very positively about my day of practice. I was able to perform many state checks and make many aspirations to recognize the dream state. Before going to sleep I repeatedly formed the aspiration to recognize the dream state and recall my dreams. I drank a glass of water to insure that I would wake in the middle of the night. Lights out at 10:15 and alarm set for 5:50. In short, I feel that considering limitations on sleep time everything was pretty much ideal. 

I woke up in the middle of the night, I did not check the time but it was probably 2:30 or 3:00. I stayed up for maybe 5 minutes and practiced MILD as I fell back to sleep. Below is the result taken from my DJ:

Lucid/WBTB : out of the blackness a tan 1970s Lincoln continental rolls. With it the sidewalk, grass, and street come into focus. I look at the car and start to admire it, but quickly I realize I am dreaming. I am a little startled by this and can't remember/decide what to do. Then I think "it doesn't matter what I do because it's dream."  I jump on to the car hood and with this I remember to try to stabilize.  I rub my hands together and say " this dream is stable and vividly clear." I repeat this once and then sing it again, continuing to rub my hands I can feel the "friction". At this point the dream starts to fade. I decide to try spinning to prolong it , and can feel the "motion", but nothing emerges from the blackness.

I forgot to do a state test. This is a pretty typical of my lucids. Very short, perhaps 50 seconds to a minute. This one was probably a little less vivid than some others. I feel like this was a lucid "dreamlet", close to WILD. I have noticed that when I am vigilant during the transition to sleep I catch myself involved in very short dreams that dissolve immediately upon recognition. I have noticed that short WBTB combined with MILD produces pretty good results with me. I have yet to have a really long, powerful LD, but am confident it will come with continued training. 

Following this I had some very good recall of two distinct dreams and a fragment. Neither were typically long so I feel like I missed some content, but I am very happy with the recall subsequent to the lucid.

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## KonchogTashi

> Bingo!   You are certainly welcome, but you're reaching all the right conclusions yourself with minimal nudging, so, well done!
> 
> I'm currently reading "Wherever You Go, There You Are: Mindfulness Meditation In Everyday Life" and it's really great, I highly recommend it.   The emphasis is being mindful of and completely content with where you are, right now, not stuck living in discontent over past events or looking forwards to the future for happiness, at the expense of the present moment (if only I could lucid dream every night, I'd be happy....).   The point is not to ignore the past/future, but not to let them rule your life.



I agree mindfulness has profound benefits that apply to the full spectrum of our experience. I am a longtime buddhist practioner and have a lot of experience with mindfulness meditation. I once sat a 30 day long retreat with 8 hours of formal mindfulness meditation per day. I had powerful, vivid dream during this retreat. I still practice meditation daily, but it is now more connected with visualization and less overtly formal mindfulness training, but really any meditation requires sustained mindfulness or one will loose the object of one's focus.   





> On the recall disappointment: I completely understand, but it's best not to associate negative emotions with dreaming in any way, even if the emotion is about  not getting the recall you'd like.      It's great that you persevered and came up with some dreams!



I need to remember this!!





> How much time do you estimate that you spent/spend generally on recall?   I sometimes will spend even 30 minutes casting my mind back for memories, if I feel that there is something more there to be found.    It's something that comes with time and experience, to get a feel for how long to do it before heading back to sleep.   Generally I do not spend that long, but I do spend more than just a moment -- usually several minutes at least.   If nothing comes, try asking yourself (even quietly vocalizing sometimes), "What was I just dreaming about?".  If you do this every time you reach for recall you're setting up a powerful association that can be very helpful in triggering dream memories.
> 
> Even if you get no recall, be happy that you've noticed a waking, as that means chance to grab some awareness as you head back to sleep which increases the chances for lucidity.



I would say i spend between 10 and 15 minutes on recall in the morning. If the dreams are particularly interesting I will give it another 5 minutes.  In the middle of the night if something is not right there then I don't give it any more time. I am likely to wake up fully and then ruin the rest of my night of sleep. I have learned to tread lightly during mid-night wakings If I value having a restful night. I also try to be mindful of sleep cycles and attempt to have my alarm go off at the end of one whenever possible. Sometimes this is difficult as it will push wake up time back into the 4:00 hour or forward past 6:00, neither of those options are acceptable. 





> You're in a great position of knowing already that you can lucid dream.  Now it's just a matter of attention to the practice: do the daytime (awareness), do the nighttime (recall, intention, WBTB), and be patient.   Do the best as you can to maximize the conditions profitable to lucid dreaming and to have them coincide on any given night.
> 
> Really love your non-lucid dreams, since you'll most likely have a ton more of them.  Look forward to and work for the lucids, but really enjoy those non-lucids.    Be thankful for any recall at all, and set intention that you want to recall even more: longer, more detailed, more aware, and lucid.



This is excellent advice and reinforces my enjoyment of non-lucids. Last night's non-lucid dreams were actually more interesting than the lucid!

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## FryingMan

^^ Wow, congratulations on the lucid!   For length/stability, that comes in time.  On time spent on recall, 10 to 15 minutes in the morning is great.   I concur on the middle of the night recall -- it does tend to wake me up, too, if I'm not careful.  But if the dreams are really noteworthy I will record.   For my first 3 months of practice I was recording every waking and I wracked up a lot of recall, which was very enjoyable, but I did get a tad burned out and let drop the intention to wake up after every dream drop.   But know that that possibility is there if you need it for a boost.

The main thing is to be in touch with your wakings and back-to-sleeps, and to do what works for you.  It seems you've found what works.  You might experiment quickly making a list of mental keywords of the dreams you do recall during those middle-of-the-night wakings, and see if you can salvage any of those memories in the morning.   I find that sometimes I successfully can build a growing list of recall all through the night with every waking that (mostly) survives until morning.  It's certainly not 100%, but if you practice it, you can get better at it.

I might suggest once in a while stepping outside your comfort zone and spending a bit more time on middle-of-thet night recall, at least when you have a chance to sleep in in the morning.  Believe me, I've experienced more than my fair share of underslept nights when I couldn't get back to sleep, and know how frustrating those are.   But sometimes you need to push a bit to extend your boundaries.   

Lucidity is awesome, there is no doubt about that, being *there* and aware in your dreams is amazing.  But non-lucids I think are just more fun and interesting and varied.    Excellent recall of a long, vivid non-lucid (Sensei and I call these "epics") is a tremendous joy.

I'd say you've got all your ducks in a row!   Now just lather, rinse, repeat!

Edit: one more note about not knowing what to do in the lucid.   Here's where daytime practice of the "becoming lucid ritual" helps, and frequent renewal of the memory of set of tasks you want to perform, so you don't end up just standing there lucid saying "...uh....!".   Those mini-tasks also help to keep you in the dream longer.

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## fogelbise

I completely concur with FryingMan on practicing what you will do (in your next lucid) during the day...it can definitely help you remember how you want to proceed: doing state tests, tasks, stabilization (though try not to think of it as stabilization during the dream...try to think of it as something you just do when you become lucid...). As a bonus, I think that this particular practice during the day also edges you closer to lucidity both day and night.





> I forgot to do a state test. This is a pretty typical of my lucids. Very short, perhaps 50 seconds to a minute. This one was probably a little less vivid than some others. I feel like this was a lucid "dreamlet", close to WILD. I have noticed that when I am vigilant during the transition to sleep I catch myself involved in very short dreams that dissolve immediately upon recognition. I have noticed that short WBTB combined with MILD produces pretty good results with me. I have yet to have a really long, powerful LD, but am confident it will come with continued training.



Congratulations on your lucid dream! Although the definition of dreamlet is likely debatable, I would say your later description of "very short dreams that dissolve immediately upon recognition" are dreamlets but since you interacted with this one and got on the hood of the car and felt your dream hands, I believe you were not just experiencing a "dreamlet" but you were in an actual dream and lucid...so great work!!

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress update night of 11/19/14*

Had a day of decent practice. During the day I contemplate the dream-like nature of experience followed by state tests by hand-check and/or nose pinch. I was able to do this between 15 and 20 times. I also logged at least 5 "general awareness checks" where I mentally review my last fifteen or twenty minutes, how I arrived at my current location, etc.

I went to sleep at 10:00 and drank a glass of water to insure waking during the night. I fell asleep cultivating the intention to recognize the dream state and recall my dreams. I woke in the middle of the night, but never really got my awareness bright and awake, I clumsily and foggily formed the intention to recognize my dreams as I fell back asleep. I woke in the morning with decent recall. I logged 3 pretty full fragments/dreams. I feel positively about this. I know my next LD will come soon and it will be vivid and long lasting!

A question: What is typically considered  "a dream" vs. "a fragment" I typically consider it a fragment if it is just once scene, even if the recall of that scene is detailed and rich. I consider it a dream if there is more continuity, a scene change or more complex development of "plot." What is the general consensus on this?

Thanks!!

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## FryingMan

> A question: What is typically considered  "a dream" vs. "a fragment" I typically consider it a fragment if it is just once scene, even if the recall of that scene is detailed and rich. I consider it a dream if there is more continuity, a scene change or more complex development of "plot." What is the general consensus on this?
> 
> Thanks!!



Sounds like a good day of practice!  Recalling dreams is such a joy.   I was a bit disappointed at my night at first, but then when I wrote it all out in detail I decided it was in fact quite a nice set of dreams with a bit of semi-lucidity at the end.    So in the end I was quite happy with my night, it's best to be positive!

Dream vs. scene vs. fragment is highly subjective.  I personally consider "a dream" a set of scenes ("scene" being a solid memory of a location with a set of actors) that either share plot, or where I remember the transitions, or where I just "know" they were all part of the same dream.   Some "dreams" can be single-scene and very short.    

I consider a fragment a vague, short, hazy memory, just a  location and theme lasting basically no time at all, barely on the edge of remembering it at all.  But that may be just me.

But in the end it doesn't matter too much unless you're participating in the DV competitions where "a dream" is awarded one point and "a fragment" is awarded half a point, and even then it's more or less up to the dreamer to count something as a dream or a fragment.

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## KonchogTashi

> Dream vs. scene vs. fragment is highly subjective.  I personally consider "a dream" a set of scenes ("scene" being a solid memory of a location with a set of actors) that either share plot, or where I remember the transitions, or where I just "know" they were all part of the same dream.   Some "dreams" can be single-scene and very short.    
> 
> I consider a fragment a vague, short, hazy memory, just a  location and theme lasting basically no time at all, barely on the edge of remembering it at all.  But that may be just me.
> 
> But in the end it doesn't matter too much unless you're participating in the DV competitions where "a dream" is awarded one point and "a fragment" is awarded half a point, and even then it's more or less up to the dreamer to count something as a dream or a fragment.



Thanks for clearing this up. This is pretty much what I thought. most of my recall is very detailed single scene occurrences, or non-linear mis-mashes of scenes that convey a "story". These pretty much straddle the line between fragment and full dream, with a tilt toward full dream. Complex, linear "plots" are less common, but those are the most enjoyable to recall. Thanks for your continued input and support. My next lucid is right around the corner!

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress night of 11/20*

Another good day of practice followed by good night conditions. During the day I continued to perform state checks combined with intention setting. I probably logged 15-20 solid checks. Additionally I re-read sections of EWOLD that discuss state testing, MILD, and WBTB. 

I made it to bed at 10:30 after drinking a glass of water and setting my intention firmly on lucidity and recall. I woke up at 12: 30, got out of bed, went to the restroom and got a small snack. I performed 3 state tests during this time. I was out of bed for about 10 minutes. I went back to bed and performed the MILD procedure as described in EWOLD. I got distracted several times, but came back to the visualization and intention setting each time. This woke me up and I tossed and turned while continuing to MILD for about 20 minutes. I feel really positive about how I did with the implementation of MILD. Perhaps If I had woken up at 3:30 instead of 12:30 I would have recognized the dream state.

I woke up later in the night, maybe 3:30 with some recall, but was unable to rouse myself enough to log it. Upon waking for good at 5:15 I had a complete dream, a long fragment/dream and a short fragment. I good night! A long and very vivid lucid dream is right around the corner!

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress Friday 11/21, Saturday 11/22, and Sunday 11/23*

Three days of solid daytime training. I continued to perform 15-25 state tests combined with intention setting during the course of each day. I am still using the hand check & nose pinch test. 

*Friday night* I got a solid 7 hours of sleep. I woke up with decent recall. I logged 3 scenes with 2 of them straddling the line between fragment and dream. *Saturday night* I did WBTB after about 4 hours of sleep. I had no recall at that time but kept myself up for 15 minutes as opposed to my usual 5. In the morning I had 3 solid dreams to log, excellent. *Sunday night* I had a lot of difficulty falling asleep and only managed about 5 hours of total sleep. I am pleased that despite this poor condition I was still able to recall and log a complete dream in the morning with two common dream signs (high school girlfriend and dilapidated Victorian style, haunted appearing house). However, I did not recognize either of these common dream signs. There is always tonite, and I am confident I will have a long and vivid lucid this week.  

All in all, I am pleased with my general direction. I have been able to maintain consistent daytime practice and have recalled at least a fullish, detailed fragment every morning for the last week. In general, my recall is becoming both more extensive and more detailed.

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## fogelbise

Keep up the good work  :smiley:  and try not to worry about missing the dream signs. I am a believer in putting dream signs to work for you and I have put them to work for me off and on but sometimes your awareness or memory just are not working in your favor. I, not too long ago, saw the word "lucid" in a dream and didn't become lucid.

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress 11/23-11/30*

I continued with my daytime training as described above. This is basically "combining reality testing with intention setting" as described by LaBerge. I average 15 state tests per day, a few of the days more, a few less. During this week I was mostly off work. This allowed me to experiment with my sleep schedule a bit more than usual. For 3 nights I practiced WBTB with MILD, faithfully following the instructions in EWOLD. For the WBTB I stayed up 10 minutes on 2 nights and 35 minutes on the third. This produced mixed results. On the first two nights no lucids and OK recall( 1 dream and 1 fragment the first night, no recall the second). The third night I got very good results, logging a very vivid fully plotted dream, a shorter and less complex dream, and several fragments. 

On two nights (including last night) my sleep was very poor and as a result I had no recall and no LDs. 

In general, I allowed myself to sleep until I woke up and took a break from the alarm. I feel this produced decent results, but generally did not lead to increased recall. If I have extra time to sleep I think I need to set alarms at intervals corresponding to REM cycles in the second half of the night to maximize recall and MILD attempts. I have another break coming up in 3 weeks and plan on utilizing this strategy. Until then, I plan to continue with my state test/intention setting and MILD when I wake up in the night.

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## fogelbise

I am happy to hear that you are keeping up with your day practices.  :smiley:  It sounds like that longer wbtb on the 3rd night may be the reason for the stronger results that night. Everyone is different, so this is very useful info and of course further experimentation will tell you more.

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## KonchogTashi

> I am happy to hear that you are keeping up with your day practices.  It sounds like that longer wbtb on the 3rd night may be the reason for the stronger results that night. Everyone is different, so this is very useful info and of course further experimentation will tell you more.



I agree with your assessment of the longer WBTB. I have plans of utilizing this this weekend and making  on my upcoming break from work. In general I feel as though WBTB of some duration is very essential to lucidity for me. I am currently utilizing the glass of water method for very short wake ups in the middle of the night during the work week.

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## KonchogTashi

Daytime practice was good although perhaps something left to be desired owing to being raggedly tired from a poor night's sleep on Sunday. Lights out at 11:00, up at 5:55. Very poor recall, only a hazy fragment of 3 sentences in the journal. I feel like my sleep schedule is not ideal as my wake up time is in the middle of a cycle, not near the end when REM prominent. Pushing wake up back to 5:00 is less than desirable as this is getting me in to the <6 hrs. of sleep range, and pushing it up to 6:30 is not tenable due to morning schedule. This has been an ongoing issue. 

_ solutions:_ do nothing 
                earlier lights out
                earlier or later wake up
                middle of the night waking/journaling


The least desirable for me is middle of the night journaling as this is likely to lead to full awakening and an abrupt end to the night's sleep. I think this is a good option when I have more flexibility in my sleep schedule. Earlier lights out is a good option as a 10:30 lights out lends itself to a nice 6:00 wake up right at the end of a cycle. 

I have also been thinking I need to develop some short term goals. I have long term goals, but they are kind of nebulous (increase frequency and duration of LDs). I think If I developed some good measurable goals with a timetable this would contribute to quicker development of lucidity and attendant skills. 

question:  What is a good time frame or limit to use for LD goals? weeks? months? 

Thanks!!

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## FryingMan

Yes finding the sweet spot for sleep is important.  If you can move your lights out time earlier, do that, and see how it goes.   More time to sleep is more time to dream, and those later REM cycles are the particularly juicy ones (although I did have a really long, vivid dream between the 4th and 5th hour last night myself, but that's a bit unusual for me).

I like setting monthly goals.   In lucid dreaming it takes a while for your performance to catch up with your practice, so a month would be enough time generally.   I've been a bit lax myself recently, time to set some LD goals!  I had a really important goal to reach a certain # of LDs by my one year practice anniversary, and I ended up blowing way past it…that's the power of a really important goal.  That's the other thing: your goals must be *important* to you in order for them to be powerful.    Adjust as you go, if you're not making a particular goal, then set  a slightly lower bar, no reason to be depressed about "getting behind" in your goals.   Constant adjustment is good, but always try to leave a liiiiitle bit of stretch there so that you're reaching.     The brain has an amazing goal-satisfying center -- if you can tap into it it will absolutely help you!

For goals is pays to be very specific.  "I will recall X dreams per night over the month"   "I will have 4 lucid dreams this month"  and so forth.   The goal should be just a bit beyond comfort level, but be realistic.   Over time you will get a better feeling of what is more or less realistic for you.   But pushing past your current boundaries is the only way to grow, in any discipline.     LaBerge mentions what large role (good) goal setting plays, you may want to review that part of ETWOLD if you haven't read it already.

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## FryingMan

> I agree with your assessment of the longer WBTB. I have plans of utilizing this this weekend and making  on my upcoming break from work. In general I feel as though WBTB of some duration is very essential to lucidity for me. I am currently utilizing the glass of water method for very short wake ups in the middle of the night during the work week.



Keep up the experiments, yes, just because a longer one worked for you once doesn't mean the shorter ones are worse.    I had some of the best BTB results from probably 5-10 minutes.  Longer than that and I'm up for a looooong time.

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## KonchogTashi

> For goals is pays to be very specific.  "I will recall X dreams per night over the month"   "I will have 4 lucid dreams this month"  and so forth.   The goal should be just a bit beyond comfort level, but be realistic.   Over time you will get a better feeling of what is more or less realistic for you.   But pushing past your current boundaries is the only way to grow, in any discipline.     LaBerge mentions what large role (good) goal setting plays, you may want to review that part of ETWOLD if you haven't read it already.



In the last 30 days I logged 20 "dreams", 17 "fragments", and 2 LDS. 

A measurable, month long goal related to this recall data:

"between 12/2 and 1/2 I will log at least 30 dreams and 5 Lucid dreams"

That allows for a 10% increase in "dream" recall and a 150% increase in the number of lucid dreams. I feel this is achievable as with "auto-pilot" LD practice and almost no effort being put into recall I was still getting an LD about once every 30 days. During this time I will also have more than a week of time during which I will be able to sleep longer than is typical and therefore be more courageous with my WBTB and MILD practice. I will re-read the sections of ETWOLD you mentioned as well. 

Thanks for your helpful input!

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## fogelbise

^I like the goals!  :smiley:  I will let the recall king FryingMan address if he thinks you might want to up your recall goal but I saw what you said about that. Also, what he said about experimenting is true. It sounds like you have addressed the downside to the longer WBTB's by delaying the longer ones to the weekend. That is what I did early on. Again, everyone is different, but in my early and middle experiences longer WBTB's corresponded to significantly increased chances of LD's. This assumes that you have time to not worry about getting back to sleep (like weekends) and are able to get back to sleep of course.

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress Update Night of 12/2*

_Daytime:_

I continued with my state testing & intention setting. I estimate I got in 20+ checks between wake up and lights out. I am trying to stretch out the duration of the check a bit, to really thoroughly take stock of my surroundings and state. 

_Nighttime:_ 

I was trying to have lights out at 10:30 and wake up at 6:00. Actual lights out time was closer to 10:50. I set my intention to recognize the dream state and recall dreams on awakening. This went pretty well. I was awakened at 5 by my spouse's unattended alarm clock. This threw me into a mini-panic as I had no recall and realized there was no time for a complete cycle. I struggled for recall for 10 or 15 minutes then fell asleep. When my alarm went off at 6:00 I woke with a clearly remembered complete dream and an additional dream fragment. A relief!

I think I need to focus more on recall as I fall asleep and save the lucid intention setting for middle of the night awakenings. Some lucidity will probably still come as a result of my consistent state testing and intention setting. In general, recall still seems like a tenuous situation. Most nights I come up with at least one dream, but I am still having a nights here and there with no recall or poor recall. Sometimes I feel like my nighttime practice gets a little complex i.e.: "Tonight I will have lucid dreams, they will be stable and clear, in these lucid dreams I will remember to stabilize the recognition and then accomplish tasks a, b, and c., when I wake up I will have detailed and complete recall of these dreams..."

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## FryingMan

Well you probably know by now what I'm going to say about recall: you can never have enough.    In terms of your goal for recalled dreams I think it's fine, but what I'd like to see is consistent always *trying* for recall, at least a little bit, every single time you find yourself awake, and certainly for the last waking of the night.   The effort is more important than (for now) the results.   We'll get the absolute numbers up there eventually.  And frankly it's quality/length/vividness not quantity.    My favorite nights are the "single dream that lasted forever" sort of nights like I had two nights ago.   While last night I had a bunch of seemingly unrelated scenes.    But regardless, the goal is to accumulate  a lot of dream experiences, ultimately to feel like "you're really there" in your dreams most of the time, because that's where the lucidity comes in: when *you* are already there in your dream.   Then you just have to remember to notice!

So keep it up!   I think you're doing great, and you're putting in the effort every day and night, that's 99.99% of the battle right there.

For intention wording, yes I do think less is more, but the important thing is that you get the "feeling" of what you intend into the statement.  Sometimes the longer phrases really help you to cement your intention.

Oh, something I just remembered that I'd forgotten over the last few months!     A visualization from the Tibetan dream yoga book I took out is: "I shoot my awareness through the night like an arrow to fly through all my dream experiences" and visualize yourself shooting from the wold's most powerful bow a bright arrow of your awareness into the darkness of the night to meet up with your dreams.   I personally like that a lot, I'll have to return to it!

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## KonchogTashi

> Well you probably know by now what I'm going to say about recall: you can never have enough.    In terms of your goal for recalled dreams I think it's fine, but what I'd like to see is consistent always *trying* for recall, at least a little bit, every single time you find yourself awake, and certainly for the last waking of the night.   The effort is more important than (for now) the results.   We'll get the absolute numbers up there eventually.  And frankly it's quality/length/vividness not quantity.    My favorite nights are the "single dream that lasted forever" sort of nights like I had two nights ago.   While last night I had a bunch of seemingly unrelated scenes.    But regardless, the goal is to accumulate  a lot of dream experiences, ultimately to feel like "you're really there" in your dreams most of the time, because that's where the lucidity comes in: when *you* are already there in your dream.   Then you just have to remember to notice!



Last night I resolved to wake up and remember my dreams, even in the middle of the night. I woke around 4:00 and put effort into recall for at least 15 minutes. Nothing came. Then I resolved to just go back to sleep and try again during the last hour or so of sleep. As I was drifting off a fragment came to me and I tried to trace it back and forward. I was able to elaborate on it a bit, but never to the point I would consider it a dream. The effort put into recall kept me awake and I was unable to fall back asleep for the last cycle. Ah well, another night. I got up and got in some intense morning exercise along with my normal mediation session. Tonite I will have lucid dreams!





> So keep it up!   I think you're doing great, and you're putting in the effort every day and night, that's 99.99% of the battle right there.



This is encouraging! Thanks!!





> For intention wording, yes I do think less is more, but the important thing is that you get the "feeling" of what you intend into the statement.  Sometimes the longer phrases really help you to cement your intention.



This is great advice. i tend to get too literal and heavily conceptual with mental practice. I can take this to heart. 





> Oh, something I just remembered that I'd forgotten over the last few months!     A visualization from the Tibetan dream yoga book I took out is: "I shoot my awareness through the night like an arrow to fly through all my dream experiences" and visualize yourself shooting from the wold's most powerful bow a bright arrow of your awareness into the darkness of the night to meet up with your dreams.   I personally like that a lot, I'll have to return to it!



If it works, use it!
Its ironic as my religious tradition has a complete path of dream practice, yet I find the methods it employs much more difficult than the science derived methods such as MILD. Furthermore, I am an atrocious visualizer, even after years of dedicated practice. Visualizing before sleep keeps me wide awake. I associate the deficit with the "literalness" with which I approach mental practice i mentioned above. None of my teachers have introduced me to the dream yoga methods in our tradition. However, I have spoken to one of my teachers about recognizing dreams. He was pleased that I have had the experience. I asked what I should do when I recognize the dream state, asked how I should utilize it. He replied "no need to do anything, just recognize is good." I was frankly expecting a bit more elaborate advice. One of these days I will ask one of my teachers for the transmission of the dream yoga teachings.

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress Update Night of 12/3*

_daytime:_

I kept up the practice of state testing combined with intention setting. I am not really having any difficulty remembering to do this. I do not count checks, but I estimate about 20 per day. 

_nighttime:_

Lights out at 10:45. I fell asleep cultivating the intention to wake up and recall dreams each time they occurred. I woke up at 4 and struggled with recall, eventually (15-20 min) coming up with a decent fragment, but definitely not a full dream. The effort involved in recall woke me up sufficiently that I was unable to fall back asleep. I tried practicing MILD, but as time passed and my wake up alarm grew nearer and nearer I threw in the towel and got up and on with my day. Lucidity awaits tonight!

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## FryingMan

I would definitely temper the effort you spend on middle of the night recall, at least for now, especially if you have issues falling back asleep.     I didn't mean to imply that you *must* notice middle-of-the-night wakings.  If you do notice them, that's great, as you can build up a lot more recalled dreams that way.   But for now, if it's like pulling teeth just to get a fragment after 15 minutes, I say back off a little.   It's important to find your sweet spot.    I would recommend starting with just a "quick memory check" -- ask yourself "what was I just dreaming about?" and if nothing comes in about a minute, bail and aim directly back to sleep.     If you enjoy spending the time doing recall, then by all means, keep it up.   You have to be your own barometer here.    The main thing is to always reach for the memory, to associate waking up with remembering dreams -- for now though, make it a quick check.   Reserve your 15 minute deep delving for the final waking of the day.    Over time, as you gain experience and confidence and ability, spend more time if you find it helps.    I usually don't spend a long time on a stubbonly blank mind -- what I spend time on is going over the memories I *do* have, repeatedly, to solidify/cement them, which tends to pull in others.  But if I have absolutely nothing and it's the middle of the night, it's right back to sleep for me, especially these days.

Although, practice getting back to sleep is invaluable in lucid dreaming.    I'm definitely on your team in this regard: it can be quite a battle to get back to sleep under various circumstances, but I *have* gotten a lot better over the last year, to the point where I *know* if I can gather the will to shutdown distracting thoughts and focus 100% on relaxation, that I will make it back to sleep (all things being equal: important morning appointments and/or stress/upsetting life circumstances can throw all that out the window).

When all else fails, a smidgen of valerian or melatonin can work wonders, but beware of it too close to waking time as it can lead to grogginess during the day.  I also don't like to rely on it.

Very intersesting about approaching your teacher regarding dream training.   He may just be leery of you not being ready for it (although it sounds like you're fairly well-established), or perhaps he's just not familiar with the details of that particular practice.   You can already read the books on the subject if you haven't yet.

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## KonchogTashi

> I would definitely temper the effort you spend on middle of the night recall, at least for now, especially if you have issues falling back asleep.     I didn't mean to imply that you *must* notice middle-of-the-night wakings.  If you do notice them, that's great, as you can build up a lot more recalled dreams that way.   But for now, if it's like pulling teeth just to get a fragment after 15 minutes, I say back off a little.   It's important to find your sweet spot.    I would recommend starting with just a "quick memory check" -- ask yourself "what was I just dreaming about?" and if nothing comes in about a minute, bail and aim directly back to sleep.     If you enjoy spending the time doing recall, then by all means, keep it up.   You have to be your own barometer here.    The main thing is to always reach for the memory, to associate waking up with remembering dreams -- for now though, make it a quick check.   Reserve your 15 minute deep delving for the final waking of the day.    Over time, as you gain experience and confidence and ability, spend more time if you find it helps.    I usually don't spend a long time on a stubbonly blank mind -- what I spend time on is going over the memories I *do* have, repeatedly, to solidify/cement them, which tends to pull in others.  But if I have absolutely nothing and it's the middle of the night, it's right back to sleep for me, especially these days.



More great advice. I had a similar experience last night (thursday). I woke early in the morning and could not come up with anything. I only gave it about 5 minutes then back to sleep. I woke up for the final time and had a nice complete dream right there, although I am pretty sure it got killed in progress by my alarm. 

One thing I repeatedly marvel at is the stupidity and dullness that sleep imparts to my mind. This morning I almost dismissed the dream thinking "It is just random thoughts, I haven't fallen back asleep yet" I was about to let it go and have 0 recall, but stuck with it for a minute more and realized it was in fact a complete dream with a setting, multiple characters, and several distinct "actions" or "scenes".





> Although, practice getting back to sleep is invaluable in lucid dreaming.    I'm definitely on your team in this regard: it can be quite a battle to get back to sleep under various circumstances, but I *have* gotten a lot better over the last year, to the point where I *know* if I can gather the will to shutdown distracting thoughts and focus 100% on relaxation, that I will make it back to sleep (all things being equal: important morning appointments and/or stress/upsetting life circumstances can throw all that out the window).
> 
> When all else fails, a smidgen of valerian or melatonin can work wonders, but beware of it too close to waking time as it can lead to grogginess during the day.  I also don't like to rely on it.
> 
> Very intersesting about approaching your teacher regarding dream training.   He may just be leery of you not being ready for it (although it sounds like you're fairly well-established), or perhaps he's just not familiar with the details of that particular practice.   You can already read the books on the subject if you haven't yet.



I have used melationin in situations where I am wide awake late at night and nearly in a panic about facing the next day with 2 or 4 hours of sleep. It works well, but I am sensitive to the next day grogginess you mention, particularly if I take it for more than one night. I notice it powerfully around 3-5 pm the next day. It is usually all I can do to stay awake. This being said, the hangover is worth the 2 or 3 hours of sleep it imparts. Like you, I try to only use it when I really need it. 

Thanks again for all of your great advice. Using the workbook is really helping me to stay focused on practice!

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress Update night of 12/04*

_Daytime:_

I had a bit of difficulty remembering to state test. In general, I felt like my awareness was rather dull the whole day. I still got in a good deal of state testing and intention setting, but down from my usual number and quality, probably 10x.

_nighttime:_

I fell asleep focusing on recall as opposed to lucidity. I didnt notice the HI like i typically do, which tells me that I lost awareness sometime before actually falling to sleep. Perhaps this in part accounts for the poor recall that resulted. I woke up early in the morning ( i didnt check my phone as I have found this to lead to to much wakefulness and intrusive thoughts if it is close to my final wake time). I tried for recall but no dice, I felt as though something was just right there, but I could not make it clear enough to write anything down. I threw in the towel and went back to sleep cultivating the intent to become lucid. I woke up with my alarm and seemingly no recall. I had a little scene there and was about to dismiss it as "a bunch of thoughts" but then after a moment realized that I had indeed been asleep and that it was a dream. I spent about 5 minutes on recall and ended up with a complete (if alarm shortened) dream. Not bad. I am going to try for a longer WBTB with MILD tonight as I can afford to sleep a bit longer than normal tomorrow morning.

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## FryingMan

> One thing I repeatedly marvel at is the stupidity and *dullness that sleep imparts to my mind*.



You have discovered the enemy.   We must strive for strong clarity of self-awareness when waking in order to have even half a chance at lucidity when asleep.   The *fog and dullness of the dream state* can be overcome, but it always takes effort and intent.   I myself had a really short lucid last night where I started in a party that was so awesome I thought I should check for a dream.   I just stood there breathing through my pinched nose, again and again and again, and still couldn't reach any clear conclusions or understand the implications of what was going on.  "Can I breathe, actually?"   It was a "wake up call" (haha) for me that I must attend to my waking RCs with a clear focused mind when awake in order to set the model for doing the same in dreams.  The danger for more veteran dreamers is becoming blase over time about these moments.

edit: 




> Thanks again for all of your great advice. Using the workbook is really helping me to stay focused on practice!



You are very welcome, glad to be of assistance!

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress Update Night of 12/05*

_Daytime:_

continued with state tests/ intention setting as previously described. After work traveled by car for 3 hours with family. Gave me some nice new situations/locations to perform state tests in.

_Nighttime:_

Really fantastic night. I went to bed at 10:15. I set my intention to wake and record dreams during the night. I woke up first at 1:30 and recorded a full dream. I woke later and recorded another. Each time I went to bed I practiced MILD according to ETWOLD. The first wake practice was particularly good as typing out the dream woke me up considerably. In the cycle that ended at 5:30 I recognized that I was dreaming. The dream lasted perhaps 1 minute. I would describe it as being pretty low level lucidity as I was still very much under the sway of sleep ignorance even after recognizing the dream. It never occured to me to try to stabalize or leave the confining place I was in. Oh well..it felt great to be lucid again. 

After the lucid I woke up and typed it out, went back to be practicing MILD. I had a very vivid dream of teaching a group of co-workers how to get lucid. I taught hand check and nose pinch state tests. Both times they failed, that is, my hands looked crazy and I could breathe through my nose. I guess I expected it as the dream setting was teaching an LD class. Pretty funny!

I think the WBTB/MILD combination works pretty well for me. I would say at least 50% of my LDs have come after practicing it. 

After the final wake up I logged 3 detailed dreams, an LD, and 2 fragments. I actually could have entered more, but felt satsfied with my haul for the night. 

Thanks so much for encouraging me to record dreams in the middle of the night awakenings, I feel this really contributed to this success. I included dj entry for the dream below. THANKS!!

Driving home from Columbus with  and a new coworker I am driving, it is night. I turn off of a major street into a neighborhood. Wife asks why i am going this way. I say " I don't know columbus well" will this get us home?" "This will lead to aurora ave, it will get bus home, but not fast. I can drive" she says. Now she is driving (no switch over) and it is day. I look around and see lots of buildings with curved roofs. There is a donut shop made of glittering, dully iridescent bricks on my right. It has a beautiful curved brick roof. On the left there is another brick building, 2 or 3 stories tall, also with a rounded roof. Then we pass a strange structure on the left, what looks like two very large (10-12ft.) tall nautilus shells capped with polished red metal on the sidewalk. They sit in front of "the firehouse" and are apparently a landmark. Behind them is a very old stonewall with a hilly cemetery behind it.- I check my hands and they look strange. I check again and they seem a little off, I am puzzled. I check a third time and realize I have an extra finger and that pinky and index finger are oddly splayed and shrunken. " I am dreaming." I say. I look at wife and say "I am dreaming." She just smiles and looks at me. "Who are you?" I ask. Talking seems difficult, like it takes a lot more effort than it should, I feel like I have food in my mouth or something. She does not reply. "Who are you?" I ask again. "Ummm the person we are with is a dangerous alcoholic. Did you see that thermos they had? What do you think is in that? Look at him." She says (he is asleep, probably passed out). But who are you? I ask again, also I remember I need to stay calm and close my eyes for some reason. The dream fades.

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## FryingMan

Excellent!  Congratulations.    You can really wrack up a serious bunch of dream journal entries that way.   Getting up for actual WBTB is a great way to promote lucidity, I'm so happy you had a great night!   LOL at all the "Who are you?"'s !    Yes sometimes talking feels like I'm underwater or have a mouth full of cotton.   If you remember, you can just "mind talk", the DCs hear you just as well of course!

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## fogelbise

Congrats on the DILD KonchogTashi!! FryingMan has a wealth of knowledge so I am glad that you two are working together to get you to the next level.  :smiley:  Funny response from your wife about the alcoholic passed out in your house!

FryingMan has been so thorough that I haven't had much to add.  You have obviously found something that works well for you and with additional practice you will see your consistency increasing. The only thing I will add at this point is to try to not connect closing your eyes in the dream with anything negative. There was a TOTM to close your eyes for some length of time in a lucid and several of us did it and broke that myth you may have heard. It is also handy for Sensei's closed eye teleport. By the way he is trying to put out 1 podcast per day for 30 days on all kinds of great lucid dreaming subjects. Check his signature or profile (harder to link...I'm on my phone). It is great to listen to anytime you are lounging or want a break from reading or other LD practices.

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## KonchogTashi

> Congrats on the DILD KonchogTashi!! FryingMan has a wealth of knowledge so I am glad that you two are working together to get you to the next level.  Funny response from your wife about the alcoholic passed out in your house!
> 
> FryingMan has been so thorough that I haven't had much to add.  You have obviously found something that works well for you and with additional practice you will see your consistency increasing. The only thing I will add at this point is to try to not connect closing your eyes in the dream with anything negative. There was a TOTM to close your eyes for some length of time in a lucid and several of us did it and broke that myth you may have heard. It is also handy for Sensei's closed eye teleport. By the way he is trying to put out 1 podcast per day for 30 days on all kinds of great lucid dreaming subjects. Check his signature or profile (harder to link...I'm on my phone). It is great to listen to anytime you are lounging or want a break from reading or other LD practices.



Thanks for the continued support! Also, thanks for the heads-up regarding the podcast. I will certainly give it a listen!

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress Update nights of 12/06 & 12/07*

_Daytime:_

I continued as before. Sunday was pretty stressful with travel and getting ready for the upcoming week.  Consequently, I probably logged fewer state tests than is typical. I would still estimate that I got in 15 checks. 

_Nighttime:_

Saturday night I got to bed later than I would have liked. As a result of this I did not make any aspirations to wake in the middle of the night to record dreams. I woke up with a very detailed complete dream to add to my DJ. Sunday night was more of the same. I got to bed at 10:45, wake up time was 6:00. I made intentions of waking up and recording my dreams. I figured I would practice MILD or a permutation of it as I went back to sleep after recording. I woke up once in the middle of the night but was unable to rouse myself enough to enter anything in the DJ. At final wake up time I had a full dream and an additional fragment to log. I have noticed that my recall is improving in terms of detail per dream. I am remembering more exactly. For example my dream on Saturday night contained a lot of dialogue that I was able to recall precisely. I am quite pleased with this. Also the spatial relationships in the dreams are becoming a bit clearer "this is on my right, this is on my left."

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## KonchogTashi

> Excellent!  Congratulations.    You can really wrack up a serious bunch of dream journal entries that way.   Getting up for actual WBTB is a great way to promote lucidity, I'm so happy you had a great night!   LOL at all the "Who are you?"'s !    Yes sometimes talking feels like I'm underwater or have a mouth full of cotton.   If you remember, you can just "mind talk", the DCs hear you just as well of course!




Thanks for your continued support and encouragement, it is definitely having a positive impact on my dream practice. I was unaware of the possibility of "mind talk" provided I can get more LDs and some stability, it is something I look forward to experimenting with.

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress Update night of 12/8*

_daytime:_

I continued as before with state tests and intention setting. I realized I skimp on the "visualize yourself vividly in a dream" part of the intention setting and focus more on the aspect of "tonight I will remember to recognize that I am dreaming." I need to hone my "dream visualization" skills as this is such an integral part of both the intention setting technique and MILD, which I seem to have a pretty good relationship with. 

Nighttime:

Lights out at 10:30 with an alarm set for 6:00. I fell asleep cultivating the intention to wake in the middle of the night after dreams and record them. I drank a glass of water before my head hit the pillow to insure that I would have to get up. I woke up at 2:00 with no recall. I fell back asleep sloppily practicing MILD. I woke again at 4 with a very long and vivid dream immediately present. It was so long and detailed that I almost forgot part of it while recording it. The dream had lots of dialogue which I clearly remembered. Additionally, there were two distinct points in the dream where I thought things were strange, the first a horizontal water slide, the second my uncle smoking weed. Furthermore this dream contained two big dream signs, my childhood home, and a swimming pool. I feel like I was close to lucidity on this one, with just a tad more awareness I would probably have done a state test. Ah well, tonight! 

I went back to sleep after recording the dream (20 minutes) and had a bit of trouble getting back to sleep. I practiced MILD, this time with some accuracy. I was awakened early (5:30) by my wife getting up. I decided to just get up and get on with the day. A good night!

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## FryingMan

^^ Great work, keep it up!   I too noticed I have a fairly strong spatial location sense in many dreams.  I even drew an overhead diagram of my path through one dream where I got lucid part-way through.   You might consider doing something similar.   I'm a terrible llustrator, I just drew a very crude overhead map with locations marked where "interesting" things happened.   It's also a great way to really cement a dream into your memory

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## fogelbise

> I feel like I was close to lucidity on this one, with just a tad more awareness I would probably have done a state test. Ah well, tonight!



This sounds like a good sign...between feeling that you were close and the strong recall...I bet you were close! It is heartening to see your progress coming along nicely and your enthusiasm!

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress Update night of 12/09/14*

_Daytime:_ 

Practiced state testing and intention setting as before. Have been enduring a 2 day migraine, so combination of dull headache and medicine head left me a bit foggy all day, not sure how good my state testing was.

_Nighttime:_

To bed later than normal (11:00) groggy, so my inetntion setting for recall and lucidity was probably not very good. I woke up at 2:00 with no recall. This was not troubling as it has been the case for the last few nights, with vivid recall to follow in later REM cycles. I went back to sleep still groggy and tried to practice MILD. Final wake time was 6:00. I had no recall and moved around a lot before I realized I was awake and wanted to remember dreams. I settled back down and searched, came up with two fragments which were newspaper headlines or some other sort of text. The migraine is gone now, so tonight will be more productive. 

I also listened to Sensei's "dream count" podcast. It was very helpful for motivation. It really underscored the fact that lucidity is not something that one develops in a few months. Just like my mediation practice, it is a skill/habit/mindset that I need to train in and nurture over the course of years and decades, not months and days. The longer I practice, the more frequently the lucidity, the greater the benefits.

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## KonchogTashi

> ^^ Great work, keep it up!   I too noticed I have a fairly strong spatial location sense in many dreams.  I even drew an overhead diagram of my path through one dream where I got lucid part-way through.   You might consider doing something similar.   I'm a terrible llustrator, I just drew a very crude overhead map with locations marked where "interesting" things happened.   It's also a great way to really cement a dream into your memory




I am still debating with myself about going to a paper dream journal. The main reason I want to is to be able to sketch things out and solidify spatial relationships. The downside is my pen, light, and notebook will doubtlessly be co-opted by my children. Also I feel like it will take more effort, movement, and light to journal at night using paper method as opposed to phone typing.

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## FryingMan

You can do rough computer sketches later in the day, that's what I did.   If I remember a dream, then I typically remember spatial positioning pretty well, though.   I can type far faster than I can write so computer for DJ makes much more sense.    Also, on the computer, encryption is available for "special dreams" that you don't feel like the universe reading about (of course I have none of those, I just heard about them from a friend.  ::roll:: )

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress Update nights of 12/10-11*

_daytime:_

I got worked over by life during these two days. I have been under a 3 day migraine that only nominally responded to meds, this significantly inferred with my mindfulness and motivation to practice. I still managed about 5 state checks per day, but they were of dubious quality. I am back on track today and have reaffirmed my intention to perform copious high quality state tests and aspirations to recognize the dream state. 

_nighttime:_

Issues with my little one going to sleep decimated my own sleep on Wed. night. I estimate 4 hours total sleep, interrupted. On nights like this I throw out all intentions related to dreaming and just try to maximize restful sleep so that I can deal with work, home life, etc..live to fight another day. This being said, I snatched 2 fragments from the clutches of amnesia,  one where I was suspicious of dream phenomena. Friday  I woke up with nothing. I really didnt give it much effort as migraine forced me to leave work on Thursday and I really wanted to get a full, uninterrupted night's sleep after Thursday's low sleep night. I am in good shape today and will resume night practice in earnest this evening. 

Also, I got Daniel Love's book, so I look forward to reading up on Lucidity.

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## FryingMan

There are times like that....you have the right attitude: regroup, and continue another day as soon as you can.    I liked Daniel Love's book, there are some great tidbits in there.

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## fogelbise

> *Progress Update nights of 12/10-11*
> 
> _daytime:_
> 
> ...I am back on track today and have reaffirmed my intention to perform copious high quality state tests and aspirations to recognize the dream state. 
> 
> _nighttime:_
> 
> ...This being said, I snatched 2 fragments from the clutches of amnesia,  one where I was suspicious of dream phenomena. Friday  I woke up with nothing. I really didnt give it much effort as migraine forced me to leave work on Thursday and I really wanted to get a full, uninterrupted night's sleep after Thursday's low sleep night. I am in good shape today and will resume night practice in earnest this evening. 
> ...



I am sorry to hear about those significant challenges. Definitely chalk up a signifcant level of victory in the face of those challenges with your recall snatching and "suspicion of dream phenomena!" Not bad at all!  :smiley: 

I quite like Daniel Love's "Are You Dreaming." I also found his dream peg memory system (page 188) very handy for quickly remembering 10 different sets of information. I have used it IWL and for recall when I want to doze back off.

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress update 12/11-16*

ugh. I really got crushed by a sinus infection. Poor sleep for two nights, both in terms of duration and quality. Missed 2 more days of work. Medication makes me drowsy and dulls awareness/mindfulness. This is a little frustrating, as I felt I was really making good progress with recall and that lucidity was *right there*, so a little bit of a setback.

_Daytime practice:_
I can honestly say I have not lapsed on state testing and intention setting. My numbers have dropped off due to the circumstances associated with illness, but I have not let a day lapse with out at least 5 state tests. 

_Nightime:_
Pretty poor results. I abandoned WBTB and deliberate induction attempts and just coasted on the strength of my daytime activities. Obviously, no LDs were the result. Recall has also dropped off, 1 night with nothing and back to low quality recall on the others. On the positive side, this morning I am feeling much better and awoke with two full dreams to journal. During my morning meditation practice some more details from the first dream (including dialog) spontaneously came to me.  

Prior to getting ill I was really seeing how some manner of WBTB is really critical for me. My recall was really improving, recollections were much more detailed and vivid, and the number of dreams recalled had basically doubled. My deep thanks to Fryingman for suggesting middle of the night awakenings for recall. Also, without some sort of WBTB, DILD seems pretty random. So one benefit of all this is that I can see the contrast between practicing with and without waking in the night for recall. I can say for me it is a pretty clear difference. Proceeding from here I can say that to make real progress I am going to have to implement middle of the night wakings for recall on most nights. Thankfully I have a winter break from work coming up and with it a flexible sleep schedule. I plan on using this time to carefully practice WBTB and MILD on most if not all nights.

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## FryingMan

Being sick is a bummer for dreaming, that's for sure (I think jet lag is even harder, but that may just be me).    Even with lower day work and no night work, still reach for recall every time you find yourself awake, even if you don't feel well, to keep those dream recalling neural pathways well-lubed.

I am personally not a big fan of WBTB.   Not that I think it doesn't work -- on the contrary, my own results I believe prove its effectiveness.  I just don't like being awake during the night.  If anything I try to keep WBTBs "micro" -- I stay in bed, do recall, set intention, and head back to sleep.  But I don't always get to doing even that much if I'm low on sleep.

The good news is that you know what works for you.   When you can return to the full night work, you'll be confident that the results will return, which they WILL!

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## fogelbise

> *Progress update 12/11-16*
> 
> ugh. I really got crushed by a sinus infection. Poor sleep for two nights, both in terms of duration and quality.



When sick I just zonk out and focus on getting better like you did. By the way, just in case this is a possibility... I stopped fully plugging my nose and trying to breath through, for RC's IWL, for fear of sinus troubles. If you suspect nose plugs could have anything to do with it, you might want to ask your doctor. I will just simulate plugging my nose whenever I choose to do that RC IWL (using it for practicing "I'm lucid, what are my goals" and stabilize etc... I just fully plug it when I actually think or know that I'm dreaming and decide to do an RC to be sure. Most people agree that it is the most effective RC, so you might want to be sure before deciding to no longer use it. Lately I have been using finger through palm and/or looking at my hands and a brief RRC really stopping to reflect.





> _Daytime practice:_
> I can honestly say I have not lapsed on state testing and intention setting. My numbers have dropped off due to the circumstances associated with illness, but I have not let a day lapse with out at least 5 state tests.



Awesome!..this builds towards more frequent lucidity in the long run I feel so it is great that you kept that up.





> My deep thanks to Fryingman for suggesting middle of the night awakenings for recall. Also, without some sort of WBTB, DILD seems pretty random. So one benefit of all this is that I can see the contrast between practicing with and without waking in the night for recall. I can say for me it is a pretty clear difference. Proceeding from here I can say that to make real progress I am going to have to implement middle of the night wakings for recall on most nights. Thankfully I have a winter break from work coming up and with it a flexible sleep schedule. I plan on using this time to carefully practice WBTB and MILD on most if not all nights.



And WBTB's also greatly increase the chance for LD's!(with or without mild once your experience grows...though I still use SSILD) I usually get to sleep at a decent hour and have a regular sleep schedule and thus I am able to WBTB almost every night...sometimes more short than other times.

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## KonchogTashi

> Being sick is a bummer for dreaming, that's for sure (I think jet lag is even harder, but that may just be me).    Even with lower day work and no night work, still reach for recall every time you find yourself awake, even if you don't feel well, to keep those dream recalling neural pathways well-lubed.
> 
> I am personally not a big fan of WBTB.   Not that I think it doesn't work -- on the contrary, my own results I believe prove its effectiveness.  I just don't like being awake during the night.  If anything I try to keep WBTBs "micro" -- I stay in bed, do recall, set intention, and head back to sleep.  But I don't always get to doing even that much if I'm low on sleep.
> 
> The good news is that you know what works for you.   When you can return to the full night work, you'll be confident that the results will return, which they WILL!



Thanks for the continued encouragement! Recall continues to be an issue for me (in my opinion) I had another night with nothing, a honestly felt a bit frustrated, but then this morning I recalled a long dream with very good detail, and had a little tiny LD, so my frustration vanished. 

I honestly still have some "fear" around WBTB due to past experiences of not being able to return to sleep, and as a result I too like to keep them short. I need to get a bit more courageous. Missing out on a few hours sleep is worth it in the long run.

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## KonchogTashi

> When sick I just zonk out and focus on getting better like you did. By the way, just in case this is a possibility... I stopped fully plugging my nose and trying to breath through, for RC's IWL, for fear of sinus troubles. If you suspect nose plugs could have anything to do with it, you might want to ask your doctor. I will just simulate plugging my nose whenever I choose to do that RC IWL (using it for practicing "I'm lucid, what are my goals" and stabilize etc... I just fully plug it when I actually think or know that I'm dreaming and decide to do an RC to be sure. Most people agree that it is the most effective RC, so you might want to be sure before deciding to no longer use it. Lately I have been using finger through palm and/or looking at my hands and a brief RRC really stopping to reflect.



Thanks for the tip here. When the sinus problems were at their height I was using the text morph test and hand check. In general on the rare occasions I have gotten lucid I have used hand check as my primary verification. I geek out on how crazy my hands can look. I like the nose pinch because it is so cut and dry. There is no misinterpreting it. 





> Awesome!..this builds towards more frequent lucidity in the long run I feel so it is great that you kept that up.



I continue to try to keep this up. A problem I am noticing is that I have a pretty set schedule for most of the day, and as a result I am doing most of my checks in the same places, and even at the same times. I have been trying to concentrate on performing checks when I am out of my usual schedule and in more random situations. 





> And WBTB's also greatly increase the chance for LD's!(with or without mild once your experience grows...though I still use SSILD) I usually get to sleep at a decent hour and have a regular sleep schedule and thus I am able to WBTB almost every night...sometimes more short than other times.



I think for me at this point I need some sort of WBTB, even a short one, to have much of a chance (other than random) at LD. With a WBTB I see how I am simultaneously employing an arsenal of techniques, interrupted sleep, a focused technique like MILD, timing with a later REM cycle, all while falling back on the general "background" technique of state testing and intention setting. I can really see how WBTB will *greatly* increase my chances of LD.

Thanks once again for all the support, help, and accountability!

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress update nights of 12/17-18*

_Daytime:_
keeping up with the state testing and intention setting. I have been doing more tests involving digital clocks and text. Text is never a big component in my dreams, but I think the more I use the test, the more text will appear in dreamland. Getting in 10-15 tests for each of these two days.

_Nightime:_
Wednesday night was a bust. I had a later than normal bedtime which gave me only 5 hours total sleep. I woke in the middle of it with no recall. I woke in the morning for the final time and struggled, but came up with nothing. This was a bit frustrating honestly. 

Thursday went better. I had some difficulty falling asleep so I probably only got 6 hours total sleep. I woke in the middle of the night for recall but had nothing. I got frustrated by this, but looking back it was needless as typically I don't have any recall in the middle of the night. I think this was just "sleep confusion" playing dirty tricks on my rational mind. It was difficult to fall back asleep, but I managed to and had a weird short lucid which kind of straddled the line between WILD and DILD. 

I am aware, but there is just blackness. I "look" down and see my hands, they are pale and translucent, and my arms vanish just before the elbows. I instantly know that I am now dreaming. I clap my hands together and vigirously rub them, feeling the "friction." I do this for a few seconds, then pat down my dream body, waiting for visual elements to develop. I start to move around, feeling the motion of my dream body, but still without visual elements developing. Lucidity fades and a detailed dream develops (I think).

I think the dream I recalled (it was long and recall was very good with many clear details and dialogue). arose immediately after this brief lucidity as I was only asleep for about an hour. I am not counting as as an LD, but still is is encouraging!

I will probably update somewhat sporadically over the next two weeks as I will be off work and finding time to sit down at a computer will be more of a challenge. Don't think I've thrown in the towel though as I will be practicing carefully each night with WBTB and MILD as I will have the ability to sleep in and rack up 7-9 hours of sleep a night. Many LDs await!!

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## FryingMan

> Thanks for the continued encouragement! Recall continues to be an issue for me (in my opinion) I had another night with nothing, a honestly felt a bit frustrated, but then this morning I recalled a long dream with very good detail, and had a little tiny LD, so my frustration vanished. 
> 
> I honestly still have some "fear" around WBTB due to past experiences of not being able to return to sleep, and as a result I too like to keep them short. I need to get a bit more courageous. Missing out on a few hours sleep is worth it in the long run.



I can say the same thing.   And I experienced it two nights ago.   After about 5 hours of sleep, I risk just not falling back asleep again.   Earlier than that, generally not a problem.    I had a decision to make two nights ago where I found myself awake, felt drowsy enough to go back to sleep immediately, but decided to to recall instead, and I could *feel* the drowsiness evaporate as I went over the dream scenes.  Ah well.   It's something that will probably be a challenge for some of us.   Training proper relaxation is the major way around this.    And getting exercise so that our body/mind demands more sleep (I was also sedentary all that day, so that's part of it I'm sure).

But you know what I've found: is that if instead of lying in bed frustrated that I can't sleep for hours, just getting up and sitting in a chair tends to make me sleepy!    So sometimes the best thing that helps getting back to sleep is a proper WBTB!

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## FryingMan

> I am aware, but there is just blackness. I "look" down and see my hands, they are pale and translucent, and my arms vanish just before the elbows. I instantly know that I am now dreaming. I clap my hands together and vigirously rub them, feeling the "friction." I do this for a few seconds, then pat down my dream body, waiting for visual elements to develop. I start to move around, feeling the motion of my dream body, but still without visual elements developing. Lucidity fades and a detailed dream develops (I think).
> 
> I think the dream I recalled (it was long and recall was very good with many clear details and dialogue). arose immediately after this brief lucidity as I was only asleep for about an hour. I am not counting as as an LD, but still is is encouraging!



Sure sounds like a lucid to me!

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## fogelbise

> I continue to try to keep this up. A problem I am noticing is that I have a pretty set schedule for most of the day, and as a result I am doing most of my checks in the same places, and even at the same times. I have been trying to concentrate on performing checks when I am out of my usual schedule and in more random situations. 
> 
> I think for me at this point I need some sort of WBTB, even a short one, to have much of a chance (other than random) at LD. With a WBTB I see how I am simultaneously employing an arsenal of techniques, interrupted sleep, a focused technique like MILD, timing with a later REM cycle, all while falling back on the general "background" technique of state testing and intention setting. I can really see how WBTB will *greatly* increase my chances of LD.



You definitely have the right idea to look for other opportunities outside of your normal schedule to do checks. I would also recommend making sure you get some in during the 3 or so hours before heading to bed.

Until you get used to doing some length of wbtb and be able to go back to sleep afterwards, you can continue to limit them to mostly on the weekends and times when you can sleep in. For now, you could avoid them altogether when you need a good rest before any important events the next day or two out. That is how I started. I kept most WBTB's to the weekend before getting confidence that I can get back to sleep on almost all occasions. I would get significant periods of insomnia early on when I was still getting a feel for getting back to sleep after awareness work and SSILD.

And I agree with FM...looks like you had an LD!  :smiley:

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## KonchogTashi

Update 12/18-22

Daytime: 

Keeping up with the state testing and intention setting. I have started developing the "text morph" state test along with nose pinch and hand check. Still getting 10-15 in a day.


Nighttime:

Continuing with the middle of the night wakings for recall. This has paid off in that my recall is getting much more detailed in terms of multiple scenes and clear recall of dialogue. When I fall back asleep I practice MILD as described in ETWOLD. This is generally getting me 2 dreams recalled/night. However, it has yet to produce any further LDs. Tonite will be my 4th consecutive night with interrupted sleep and MILD backed by daytime state testing, so here's to lucidity!

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## KonchogTashi

Progress update night of 12/23

Got lucid last night. It was very similar to my last two. Very dark, and very short, although this one was a bit longer than the last. As far as I can tell it was at the very end of the dream.

I woke up after 5 hours sleep. I had no recall. Stayed up for 20 minutes or so. Practiced MILD using an common dream setting for the visualization ( it then appeared in the dream, but I didn't notice). 

Later in the dream I was in a warehouse and did a nose pinch ( it failed) then backed up with 2 hand checks ( my hands looked like a baby's feet???). It was so dark that I tried to stabilize by rubbing my hands, then walked through the dark until I came upon some stairs. I went up 3 or four stairs and backflipped off. Then the dream faded away to a completely black space. It got brighter, then I woke up. 

I need to revisit my goals. For what to do after getting lucid. I just don't think clearly in those moments after recognizing the state. I need a clear plan to fall back on.

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## FryingMan

Hey that's great!   Every lucid is a step forwards.   I like to rehearse the moment of lucidity a few times a day: I count to 5 slowly while rubbing my hands, patting down my body, and looking around, and say "narrate the dream, engage, goals" -- it's a goal of mine to narrate the dream like Dreamer does while it's happening as a way to really engage and remember, and I go over some goals that I have, and I try to touch some things and preferably to eat something (like biting off my fingertip and using it as gum, Sensei's suggestion!).    You can make up your own "I just got lucid" ritual, and go over it every day so that when you get lucid you avoid the "duh....." moments.

If you find yourself in a dark place, you can practice summoning: DCs, objects. use "pretend memories" to for example say "ah yes, there's a door to my <special lucid destination> right behind me!" and so forth.

If you find yourself in complete darkness I like to walk and imagine I'm doing a flying take-off superman style, I did this once and it got me right out of the void.

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## KonchogTashi

*Update up to night of 12/26*

Daytime:

I have been keeping up with state testing and intention setting as previously discussed. I have been able to up my count, now it is more continuous testing or more than 20 discrete tests. I also took Fryingman's advice and began to practice a post recognition ritual: rubbing hands, patting down my body and saying " increase clarity"

Nighttime:

I have been setting intent to wake and record dreams. This usually does not result in recall at the first wake up, but I get up, do a few state tests, and MILD back to sleep. This paid off handsomely last night, I was rewarded with my longest LD to date, I estimate about 5 minutes of lucidity. I got to fly, recite mantras, explore a location, and interact with DCs. AWESOME! I feel like this was a breakthrough as I got the hang ( somewhat) of grounding myself and continually stabilizing the dream. Thanks again for all the help, support, and great advice!


☀️Lucid Flying & Party Exploring
WBTB/MILD I am in my house on -------- There is a party or something and I am awakened. I realize I have to pee, for some reason I go outside and start to walk down oakdale. It is night and I am at the end of the street near white oak. The street is wet as if it had just rained. I walk faster and faster down the street. This begins to seem odd. I check my hands. The Palm is large and flat, and the fingers short and thin. I do a nose pinch, it fails. I know I am dreaming. I start to rub my hands together. I do a final test by jumping into the air, willing myself to go as high as possible. I jump and easily clear the top of a very high tree. Mid air I continue to rub my hands together and pat down my chest and legs. I fly around a bit above the trees and remember I had a goal of saying the vajrasattva mantra, I repeat the short mantra several times. and come down in a yard. I continue to tell myself "this is a dream, I am dreaming." I decide to go into the house. It is a single story with a front porch. I do another nose pinch test to make sure I am still dreaming. It fails and I reach down and turn the handle. The door opens and I go inside. The house has wood floors and is not furnished. I look around and see two African Americans middle aged, going down some stairs into the basement. I follow them down and there is a party going on downstairs it is well lit, the walls are paneled with light wood, the carpets are cream colored. There are maybe 15 people at the party. Somehow I know it is a "work" party. Someone starts talking to me, I excuse myself and do a nose pinch test to confirm I am still dreaming. I am. A young woman introduces me to another young woman saying that I work at "the service desk" the second woman asks how it is and I reply " you know, it's service." I ask her "who are you?" She blinks a bit and looks flustered. "Glukert." She replies. I wake up. (4:35) Lucid about 3-5 minutes.

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## FryingMan

Congrats!   "Glukert!"  Ah, dreams are so funny/fabulous.

Well, well done: RCs, hand rubbing, pat-down, goal memory.    Great dream, very exciting.

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## fogelbise

Most awesome KT!! This is a very nice achievement that you can repeat and build on!  :smiley:  If I have one word of advice, it is to keep up your practices. I have a tendency to back off whenever I feel I have made a break through and that works against me. Everone is different but I am sure you can agree that good stuff comes from keeping up your practices.

Awesome job with your LD remembering to do all that you did to stay lucid and complete a goal!!

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## cooleymd

> Text is never a big component in my dreams, but I think the more I use the test, the more text will appear in dreamland



Why try so hard to get text in your dreams, why not use it as a dream sign.  *When you don't see text maybe your dreaming*, so check next time you don't see a single sign on a street, no warning labels etc, maybe your dreaming.

I often find myself riding on buses or trains, they are covered with text in the real world and buses have lots of mirrors, but dream trains and buses lack these things for me.  Obviously the larger dream sign for me is the bus/train itself, but the lack of these things is another layer of dream sign.

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## KonchogTashi

*Progress 12/26/-1/5*

_Daytime:_

I have been keeping up with daytime practice. I have found my awareness fluctuates. Some days it is easy to remain vigilant and perform RCs very frequently and very thoroughly. Other days remembering is less frequent and the checks feel less powerful and thorough. I feel like this is OK, and natural. It reminds me very much of my experience with regular meditation practice over a long period of time, ups and downs in awareness. I can say that I have done a minimum of 5 checks everyday, and the vast majority of days many more than that. 

Additionally, after the experience of stabilization in the  last LD i documented here I have followed Fryingman's advice and added a "lucidity rehearsal." At the end of each RC I repeat aloud "this is a dream, I am dreaming, everything here is my mind." I simultaneously rub my hands together and pat down my chest and legs. This has been really helpful and out of habit I was able to repeat it in a subsequent LD.

In short, all goes well here. 

_Nightime:_

I have continued to naturally wake up after 4.5-5 hrs. sleep. Generally, I have no recall here but this does not concern me as I have been using it as prep time for the remaining 2-4 hours of sleep. I have been getting up, rousing myself a bit (max 20 min awake) and returning to sleep practicing MILD. Mostly this has resulted in excellent recall of vivid dreams, about 2 each night in the post WBTB periods. Some of them I have frankly been to lazy to record although I clearly recalled them upon waking. 

I have had 1 more LD, a rather strange one that began with a seamless reproduction of my bedroom and sleeping situation from the wakefulness that immediately preceded it. DJ entry follows:

*1/4/15 in final REM cycle after about 6 hours sleep:*
I am in bed with wife and littlest one. Little one is crawling about disrupting things. I'm fading in and out of sleep. I catch a glimpse of a figure who out of the corner of my eye appears to be someone dressed as George Washington quickly exiting my bedroom and heading down the stairs. "Who was that??" I say to my wife. She mumbles something unintelligible. I start to fade out but then decide that this is something that I should attend to. I get out of bed and head downstairs. A light is on in the kitchen and I can hear the sink running. I get ready for action and quickly turn the corner into the room. I see a woman in a brown sweater standing at the sink with her back to me. I think for a moment it's my wife...mope she is in bed, then i think "mom"... Nope. I put my hand on her back and she turns around, a stranger. I step back and know I am dreaming. I say to her "I am dreaming! This is a dream! I am dreaming!" She just silently looks at me. I start to rub my hands together and the realization becomes stronger, my awareness gradual increases . I pat down my chest and thighs and say " more clarity!" "More lucid awareness!" The room seems to sharpen slowly and I feel more present in the dream. I continue rubbing my hands together saying "more clarity!" The effect is gradual but definite. I look around, forgetting the lady. My cabinets are different, taller and brown. This distracts me and I go out of the kitchen, sort of flying/running toward my meditation room. " I will attain enlightenment for the benefit of all beings!" I shout two times. My house is dark. I enter my meditation room, it's very dark. In sort of hovering/flying., doing two flips. I say the mani mantra a few times. My shrine is a single long shelf as opposed to the three tiers it actually is. It's dark but I can make out some objects, maybe statues or stupas, but they are indistinct. I wake up. 

WBTB 20 minutes up/MILD I was lucid for about 1 minute.


In this dream I fell immediately in to the actions from the "lucidity rehearsal." This was really encouraging. I can also see that at least right now, the hand rubbing and stabilization is probably going to need to be done constantly. I really saw how the combination of the hand rubbing and verbal commands sharpened up the dream. I even felt my voice becoming stronger and stronger. The last 2 LDs have been really productive for me in terms of learning more about how lucidity works (for me).

I have started back to work and been sleeping in an extra 2.5 hours a day, I essentially just performed a "reverse CAT." I am expecting a bit of a transition back to my regimented, shorter sleep schedule. I had no recall this am. I figure it will take a week or so to adjust. I am just planning on keeping up with general day and night practice. 

Once again, thanks so much for all the support, encouragement, and excellent advice. It is really helping out tremendously.

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## FryingMan

^^ So glad to hear things are going well, it sure looks like you're making wonderful progress.    Performing your "lucidity ritual" right on cue is a great sign that it's getting well established in your memory.  Yes, hand rubbing works magic for me for stabilization,  although I've never tried verbal commands.   Well done, keep it up!

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## cooleymd

> I can also see that at least right now, the hand rubbing and stabilization is probably going to need to be done constantly.



If you believe it, it will become so.  Instead believe that your pockets are full of awesome tasting stabilizing candy, and reach in and pop it in your mouth.

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## FryingMan

^^ I, too, really want to do the stabilizing candy/gum thing.   I remembered in one LD but only found coins in my pocket.  Of course, I should have popped the coin into my mouth and started chewing it anyway but oh well  :smiley: .   Another suggestion from Sensei is to bite off a finger and chew it like gum.

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## fogelbise

This is great that the lucidity rehearsal came through into your LD so well KT! Congrats on the LD!! It sounded like you had good awareness too. 

In regards to your concern that the stabilization may need to be done constantly...that definitely need not be. You may have just been at the end of that final REM cycle. Also watch out for FA's in situations like that one where you were fading in and out of sleep. I will often get short dreams in similar situations (late morning and waking activity around me) and subsequent FA's. Definitely continue the lucidity rehearsal routine but try to think of it as something you do without worrying about stability. Eventually we should all be able to consistently just "be" in the dream and flow freely without concern until the cycle is done.

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## FryingMan

In the long run the lucidity ritual probably helps most with remembering goals.   Don't do it with fear, as fogelbise says, or like it's a requirement, but it's just something you do to get started.   I've had many many excellent LDs where I totally bypass the ritual (by forgetting it) and just jump right in to the dream.   On the other hand, I've had a number of LDs that started out unstable/"dizzy" that solidified up nicely after doing the hand-rub / pat-down.

And I can heartily second the notion of watching out for FAs.  I think we all experience them way more than we may think, because they can be sooooo convincing.   Especially in that in-and-out-of-sleep dozing time  in late morning.   Probably in most FAs we just "turn over and go back to sleep."

In times of heightened lucidity, I have a much higher frequency of FAs….or, at least, I notice them more (usually in retrospect after waking up).

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## FryingMan

Hello DILD class member,
  I'm making a one-time announcement to individual recently active workbooks to let you know about the new DILD class announcement thread.  Please subscribe to the announcement thread to see notifications of activities and other threads of particular interest/importance to DILD class members!

The first announcement is about the upcoming Sensei dreaming competition (starting on Thursday [in 2 days!], look for the official rules and scoring post on Wednesday).

http://www.dreamviews.com/dild/15591...uncements.html

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## FryingMan

Hi KonchogTashi,
   From your recent "Dream in one sentence…" (that thread's not for discussion)





> 2. I am in a car with my oldest friend telling him about DMT. (I dream about riding in cars almost every night, can't believe I miss this DS)



This is great, you may want to spend some daytime MILD visualizations on seeing yourself in your car.  See the dream image from your recall, pretend you're back in the dream, and tell yourself over and over "I'm dreaming!   I'm dreaming!   This is a dream!   Being in a car means I'M DREAMING!".    Naturally you should also do this during the waking day when you're in a car ,k as well, since no effort is needed to visualize! (Careful if you're driving, though!)

I also notice you're in your temple a lot and see teachers a lot in dreams: that's another one to really work on during the day.  Maybe you can even have your teachers help you by telling you something confusing/odd (not that this is unusual!) from time to time  :smiley: .

Don't get frustrated, I've had probably dozens of significant (usually long and quite vivid ) "crazy racquetball" dreams, and I have *yet* to catch one, even with occasional daytime MILD affirmations where I visualize the scenes and do just what I mentioned above.   I've had coffee cake in my hand instead of a racquet, raw steak instead of a ball, Christmas trees on the court, assorted wooden furniture on the court, crowds of 20+ angry opponents, totally bizarre shaped courts, glow in the dark rackets, rows of CRT computer monitors lining the court ceiling, it goes on and on.

Add to that at least a couple dozen crazy baseball dreams (the players are 15' tall giants, the stadium is in a rocky volcano, a player is a centaur, there are little ground lights on the baselines, etc., etc.) including one just the other night where I caught two balls which flew off of the field,              and I've NEVER caught one.  

Dozens of "my favorite lake" in the mountain dreams, camping with the boy scouts, NEVER caught one, not once.

At least I finally started catching childhood home dreams, which is my #1 dream sign, and I MISSED it just the other night, and a week ago, too.   I've missed them MUCH more than caught.

OK, now I feel like I need to go lie down and do some MILD dream sign work !!!!

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## KonchogTashi

> Hi KonchogTashi,
>    From your recent "Dream in one sentence…" (that thread's not for discussion)
> 
> 
> 
> This is great, you may want to spend some daytime MILD visualizations on seeing yourself in your car.  See the dream image from your recall, pretend you're back in the dream, and tell yourself over and over "I'm dreaming!   I'm dreaming!   This is a dream!   Being in a car means I'M DREAMING!".    Naturally you should also do this during the waking day when you're in a car ,k as well, since no effort is needed to visualize! (Careful if you're driving, though!)



Sorry for the slow reply. This is excellent advice! I have taken your advice and started doing state tests every time I get into a car, and then again once I have been driving for awhile. I check my digital display in the car, if a passenger I check my hands. 

The night after I first read this suggestion I took some galantamine and alpha-gpc. (I am experimenting and have yet to form a solid opinion about this approach) I had a dream where I was in a parking lot with my wife, I looked down and saw a miniature car (like a shriner's car) I immediately recognized I was dreaming. Funny how the car showed up in the dream. I had another car dream last night, but failed to recognize. 





> also notice you're in your temple a lot and see teachers a lot in dreams: that's another one to really work on during the day.  Maybe you can even have your teachers help you by telling you something confusing/odd (not that this is unusual!) from time to time .



I had two Dharma dreams the night before last. One I was sitting with a teacher and they were explaining a text to me. I almost got lucid, the dream became very vivid and I was "there", but I didn't rouse critical faculties enough to do a state test. I haven't seen any of my teachers in a couple of weeks, but next time I do, or visit my temple, I will do many state tests. 

Thanks for your continued support and excellent advice!!

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## FryingMan

galantamine with cholines (bitartrate and alpha-gpc is a good mix that spreads out the "high" over several hours) is an amazing mixture.  If you can think of them as occasional "special events" but that you can get lucid just fine and have amazing experiences without them  as well, it's probably a good way to think of them.

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## KonchogTashi

I've taken it 4 times. Once I figured out how to get back to sleep I have gotten lucid on every attempt. However, the lucidity has not been stable, and has had a different "feel" than non-supplement induced lucidity. I have noticed FAs every time I have taken it. In short, it definitely works, but the results have not been as enjoyable as my other lucids. Additionally I wake up with a bit of a "hangover." I have no desire to take more supplements to counteract this.

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## FryingMan

I've taken it perhaps 20+ times now, and have yet to figure out how to get back to sleep in a reasonable time.   WHAT IS YOUR SECRET!?

I suspect what it is: resist with every fibre of your being the urge to daydream about all the awesome dreams coming soon, and "let go totally and entirely."  Basically, do what I know needs be done: relax mind and body totally.  Easier said than done, on galantamine + choline I find my mind starts to race immediately and I see HI like fireworks, very distracting.    I usually spend a tortuous 5-7 hours trying to get back to sleep, sometimes getting up then returning to bed a few hours later, for dreams on the "fumes" of the supps.

I too do not like taking pharmaceuticals  in general, and I too do feel a hangover the next day usually.    I do not want to take pircetam (drugs to get you high and drugs to bring you down).

I get a bunch of FAs on G as well, some with very trippy results (being ejected out of bed headfirst into a downwards sloping tunnel on my back…wow…TWICE in the same night!).   I have not noticed a different quality to the dreams themselves, though.

I've gotten back to sleep and had amazing lucids maybe 5 times.   I have Galantamind which contains B5 as well which is supposedly quite bad for getting back to sleep, so I may at some point try to acquire pure galantamine.

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## KonchogTashi

Regarding getting back to sleep: I use .5-.75mg of melatonin, added to the crushed galantamine  Choline Bit, and alpha gpc. It works like a charm. i grind everything but the choline b and add it to water. quickly drink it and take the choline b, then I lay on my back close my eyes, and relax, putting my attention on the breath. After about 20 minutes or so I roll over and set my intent a few times. Since I added the melatonin I have fallen asleep in less than an hour 3/3 times, and that is with 8mg galantamine, 500mg choline b., & 600-650 GPC. This is telling as I am susceptible to WBTB insomnia. Should you ever resume supplement experiments, I recommend the addition of melatonin.

My galantamine lucids have felt "faded", or "washed out". It's probably just me. As I mentioned I'm still forming an opinion about supplements, but as of now leaning slightly negative.

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## KonchogTashi

Been having a rough go lately for a couple of reasons.

*a*. I am indecisive regarding my dream journal. I have been using my phone which was fine for awhile, but my recall has gotten much more detailed, and I am remembering more dreams. I was finding that I was loosing a lot of detail and even whole dreams due to the limitations of typing on a tiny keyboard. I switched to pen and paper, but have had a bit of trouble getting it going as it is much more cumbersome and uncomfortable to write in. It requires a flashlight, rolling over, etc.. On the nights I have used it, It has solved the problems I was having with the phone. I just need to keep up with it and get the new habit rolling.

*b.* my youngest child has been sneaking into my bed at night, which results in many wakings due to being kicked, rolled into, etc..  very poor sleep. Last night I bailed on my bed and got into hers, full of frustration and about to throw the towel in with dreaming. Once I calmed down I fell asleep and was rewarded with a nice, but short LD. DJ:http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/konc...ucid-31-64681/ 
The LD had me waking up full of confidence and renewed determination to continue diligently with dream practice. 

I have been doing very well with daytime practice, but have realized I have gotten lax with my night time practice. I need to put some more effort into this side of the equation.  

I just thought I would check in  as I have found posting here to be very helpful. THANKS!!

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## FryingMan

Hi KonchogTashi!
   I've enjoyed reading your one-sentence summaries: as I mentioned on that thread, your dream signs of Dharma center/teachers and car trips do seem really reliable!

For the night-time writing: you may want to try voice recording on your phone for a while to see how it can work for you.  I like it far more than night-time writing because: 1) you can speak far faster than you can write, 2) you can do it in the dark once you start recording (no flashlight to hold/fumble, no light to wake you up, make sure you turn down your screen brightness before bed), no fumbling for pencil, etc., no physical movement once you grab the phone [so quite minimal]).  I then transcribe during the day.   I've found though that over time, as long as I speak the full dream [or even the summaries/key words] into the recorder, I need to use the recorded notes less and less, and now I rarely refer to them unless I forget a dream/scene (maybe 1/5 nights), even if I sleep multiple more sleep cycles.   But recording does give me the added confidence that I won't forget them, and I don't then bother with running over earlier dreams mentally to refresh them upon later wakings.

Oh, I've been there many times regarding throwing in the towel and frustration.   I don't have a bed-climbing child at this point in life, but I have a snoring wife.   Makes WILD/DEILD darn near impossible, WBTB pointless, if I wake up or try to fall asleep again at a time when she's sawing logs.  Earplugs don't block out enough.  Very very very frustrating.   But I've resolved myself that I will live with it and do my best with dreaming.   Doesn't effect non-lucids much, but for lucids it really messes things up at times.     Focusing on enjoying my non-lucid recall is what keeps me going.     

Keeping up the night practice is the key thing.   I think I'd be lucid a bunch more if I noticed night-time wakings more and went back to sleep with WILD/MILD (where I can).

I hear ya, but I know that you know that dreaming is just too awesome to give up.   And besides, I'm no Buddhist, but isn't frustration at interferences and lack of results a form of "grasping?"    Heck, be glad you have a kid who likes to climb into your bed and kick you.   Before you know it that time will pass and he/she will be a teen, rolling his/her eyes at you and you'll be wondering what happened to your wonderful little kid  :smiley: .      Those teen times have their benefits too (you may have to look hard to find them), but enjoy the moment, even if that moment is kicking you in the kidneys while you're trying to dream.

The important thing in the end is to keep up everything you can keep up: daytime work, as much nighttime work as you can, and dream recall.   That way, the other legs of the foundation of lucid dreaming are still standing there waiting for you to shore up the missing one when you're ready to do so.

Good luck, you can do it!   Love all your dreams!

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## KonchogTashi

> Hi KonchogTashi!
>    I've enjoyed reading your one-sentence summaries: as I mentioned on that thread, your dream signs of Dharma center/teachers and car trips do seem really reliable!



Thanks, and ditto for your posts on this thread. I look forward to reading it each morning and am disappointed when I have poor recall. Its a really great thread!





> the night-time writing: you may want to try voice recording on your phone for a while to see how it can work for you.  I like it far more than night-time writing because: 1) you can speak far faster than you can write, 2) you can do it in the dark once you start recording (no flashlight to hold/fumble, no light to wake you up, make sure you turn down your screen brightness before bed), no fumbling for pencil, etc., no physical movement once you grab the phone [so quite minimal]).  I then transcribe during the day.   I've found though that over time, as long as I speak the full dream [or even the summaries/key words] into the recorder, I need to use the recorded notes less and less, and now I rarely refer to them unless I forget a dream/scene (maybe 1/5 nights), even if I sleep multiple more sleep cycles.   But recording does give me the added confidence that I won't forget them, and I don't then bother with running over earlier dreams mentally to refresh them upon later wakings.



I like this method quite a lot. I actually voice recorded the LD I had last night. Normally I do not know how possible it will be as I fear it would wake the wife. I will give it a shot and see if I can get it away with it. It really is ideal as it combines the ease of the phone with the stream of consciousness(ness) of pen and paper journaling. 






> hear ya, but I know that you know that dreaming is just too awesome to give up.   And besides, I'm no Buddhist, but isn't frustration at interferences and lack of results a form of "grasping?"    Heck, be glad you have a kid who likes to climb into your bed and kick you.   Before you know it that time will pass and he/she will be a teen, rolling his/her eyes at you and you'll be wondering what happened to your wonderful little kid .      Those teen times have their benefits too (you may have to look hard to find them), but enjoy the moment, even if that moment is kicking you in the kidneys while you're trying to dream.



This is really really good advice. I think I was just getting down contemplating the effort v. success ratio I have encountered in dream practice. I think mostly it was the cumulative effect of several consecutive nights of very poor sleep. The LD I had got my head firmly back in the game. I could see I am doing just fine and just need to keep plugging away and not worry about immediate results. You are too correct about reframing my view of my little one invading my sleep space. In 50 years I am sure I would trade  every LD I ever manage to have for a single moments sleep with my beautiful child. THANK YOU!

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## FryingMan

You are very welcome  :smiley: .    Oh, I'm right there at the effort vs. success ratio thing getting you down from time to time.    But you have to take the long view in this discipline.   Long view means years/decades, not months.    I'm proof positive that dedication to recall can reap great results.   And in a relatively short period of time!   The consistency matters.    And being down hinders results, so celebrate the successes.   Some people spend years trying to get lucid once and here you are with several at least  of them in the last few months, with growing recall and recognition even of common dream signs to help guide you.   Lots of positives!      Just have to hit that winning recipe for lucidity...I'm still searching for that as well, but I know one thing: as long as I'm breathing I will be dreaming, and have that as part of my life.

edit: yes you have to find the ideal volume of speaking so as not to bother the bed partner.    I've lost a dream on occasion for speaking too quietly.   But the %age success compared to reading chicken-scratch nighttime writing and all the other advantages still are heavily in favor of voice recording.    Leaving on a fan in the room to filter out the sounds can help.  If I have a particularly detailed awesome or lucid dream I really want to fully record, I'll just get up and go to the bathroom with the phone and record there.

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## FryingMan

> Rolled over, grabbed that notebook, pen, and flashlight and was handsomely rewarded with the most recall I have had in 10 days, feeling great!



Woohoo!  Congrats.   There's nothing like a big night of dreaming after a run of weak recall.   Sometimes you just gotta force yourself to roll over.   I myself did mental journaling last night but it took so much time I should have just recorded and gone right back to sleep, and still some of the earlier dreams are just weak impressions.    I love those nights that fill the DJ's pages.

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## KonchogTashi

> Woohoo!  Congrats.   There's nothing like a big night of dreaming after a run of weak recall.   Sometimes you just gotta force yourself to roll over.   I myself did mental journaling last night but it took so much time I should have just recorded and gone right back to sleep, and still some of the earlier dreams are just weak impressions.    I love those nights that fill the DJ's pages.




Thanks for the props! It did indeed feel really great to realize that no matter what, if I sleep, I dream. Even if recall gets rough for awhile all I have to do is set up the right conditions and apply a bit of effort and the dreams will be there to tune into. Daylight savings time change really screwed up my sleeping schedule and I truly feel I am just getting back on track. I have slept through full nights, despite setting my intent to wake for recall/MILD. After a couple of days I figured I needed the sleep and just let it unfold. The last couple of nights I have been waking up with good recall and journaling a page or two. of dreams, really satisfying. Now, back to LUCIDITY!

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## fogelbise

^^So true! This tip may be useless until the next spring forward time change, but going to bed an hour earlier this year (when possible) made the transition much easier than usual for me.

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