# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity > Wake Initiated Lucid Dreams (WILD) >  >  Mzzkc's Comprehensive WILD Guide

## Mzzkc

Hello! Welcome to my humble guide. In the paragraphs that follow, I'll be cataloging just about everything you need to know to have a successful WILD. I'm probably going to miss a few points, but that's what peer review is for. XP

*Introduction:*

Before I can go any further, I need to explain what WILD is all about. BillyBob has an excellent, in depth, tutorial that should be required reading for _everyone_. When I first read that, the message behind it didn't truly sink in until over a year later, after I had my  little revelation. The short of it is, you need to fall asleep. Yes some level of awareness is necessary, but you can pass that chore onto an auxiliary process with the use of an anchor, as BillyBob describes. Really, everything you need to know is covered in those two threads, but it's all buried. The purpose of this thread is digging it all up and putting it on display for everyone to see.

The Building Blocks:

To wild successfully, three things need to happen:

You need to be close to REM.You need to fall asleep.You need to retain awareness.

Block 1: Prior Sleep

The first point is incredibly important and shouldn't be overlooked. While yes, it is possible to WILD before getting any sleep whatsoever, WILDs such as this won't last very long and the quality of the LD will be horrendous. Furthermore, it will take more than an hour to pull off, assuming you know what you're doing and won't mess up at all. Compare this to a WILD attempt after six or more hours of sleep, where REM is mere minutes away and may last a very long time.

To compare:

*WILD Without Prior Sleep:* Poor quality, short, difficulty is next to impossible, takes over an hour to pull off.

*WILD With Prior Sleep (Including Naps):* Quality is what you make it, length is what you make it, takes no more than 15 minutes to pull off.

That's right, *a successful WILD need not take more than 15 minutes to make the transition*. If it's taking you longer than that (and you're definitely getting the right amount of prior sleep), you're probably having trouble with the next building block.


Block 2: Falling Asleep

Straightforward, right? Well, you wouldn't know from the number of failed WILDs people are having. This piece is just as crucial as getting prior sleep and is often where people have the most trouble. Here's a checklist to make sure you're going about this sleep thing in the most productive manner possible.

Are you:□ in an environment with minimal distractions such as light and the occasional sudden noise?
□ physically tired, and feeling the need to sleep?
□ in the “falling asleep” mindset?
□ in your usual sleeping position?
□ comfortable?
□ relaxed?Environment: If this first one isn't checked off, that's typically an easy fix. Simply invest in ear plugs and/or shades of some kind, maybe a sleeping mask. The sleeping mask and ear plugs can even double as an anchor if you're so inclined.

Being Tired: This one is harder to judge, but it's safe to say that if you're loaded up on caffeine, or some other stimulant, you probably aren't going to feel like sleeping any time soon. Other than that, *you don't want your WBTB to be too long*. I know of several WILDers who have cut their WBTBs to mere moments. Mine typically consists of emptying my bladder with the *lights off* before returning back to bed. This way I can capitalize on how tired I am directly after waking up. Keeping your WBTB to *a few minutes or less* might prove beneficial to _you_ as well.

The Right Mindset: Next is the trickiest, because it's the hardest one for most people to “get.” Put plainly, *you shouldn't be waiting for SP*, looking for HI, or anything similar. You're trying to fall asleep here, not track your progress through a series of events. Therefore, *don't try to “WILD”; go to sleep instead*.

Sleeping Position: Building on that is this next box, which is another common misconception about WILDing. *You don't have to WILD on your back.* In fact, WILDing in the position you normally sleep in may be just what you need to finally take that extra step towards lucidity.

Being Comfortable: Now, if you aren't comfortable, how do you ever expect to get to sleep in a timely fashion? Things that typically fall under this category are *swallowing, scratching, and moving*. If you absolutely need to do any of these things during your WILD, *do it* and *be done with it*. Don't give it a second thought, and continue your attempt unfettered.

Being Relaxed: Many tutorials spend some time going over relaxation techniques like The 61-Point Relaxation Technique. Which is all well and good, but I wouldn't be surprised if most people skip that step. Honestly, that's the only thing most WILD tutorials put towards the actual falling asleep aspect of the WILD. And while it isn't absolutely necessary to do something _that_ in depth, *being anxious or excited is counter-productive*. If you find yourself getting worked up or scared, at the very least, take a few deep breaths and *remember: you're just going to sleep*. Nothing special.


Block 3: Retaining Awareness

Here comes the part where you all start to hate me. As it is, *there is no “right” way to retain awareness*. Before everything is said and done, you're probably going to have to come up with your own solution. The key is understanding how you can maintain awareness without impacting your ability to sleep.

BillyBob suggested the use of anchors. But what is an anchor?





> [An] anchor is something you passively "keep track of" as you let your mind more or less wander. It is the tether that holds your prefrontal cortex _just_ functioning as you drift into the dreamworld.



As it turns out, at their core, every “awareness technique” out there right now is an anchor. Some are easier to use than others, depending on the person, but there remain two distinct types of anchors:

Environmental AnchorsMental Anchors
Environmental Anchors are anything you can latch onto outside your mind as you work your way through a WILD. These can be anything from background music, temperature variations, wearing clothing you don't normally sleep with, pain, etc.

The most important thing about Environmental Anchors is *they shouldn't disturb your ability to sleep*. I suggest you practice sleeping normally with your anchor of choice before you attempt to WILD with it. This way, you'll know what to expect.

Theory is easy. Actually using an Environmental Anchor to retain awareness is a different beast entirely. There's a fine line between giving the anchor too much attention and too little. This is something you're going to have to play around with until you get it right, as there's no way for me to relate that balance short of having you experience it for yourself. The best advice I can give is to follow BillyBob's advice and *engage the anchor passively* as you drift into dreamland.

Mental Anchors are ideally dealt with in the same manner. Common Mental Anchors such as *counting, breath tracking, and mantras should be reduced to auxiliary mental processes* that work solely in the background of your mind. Visualization, too, should occur with little involvement from your end. The only time you should be actively directing the Mental Anchor is when you're setting it up.

For instance, two Mental Anchors I developed awhile back involve a bit of prep to work properly. In one, I use various MILD techniques to set a “sentinel of intent” to alert me right as I hit the transition stage. After that, it's a simple matter of falling asleep normally and hoping the sentinel kicks in when I need it. Luckily, the other gives me slightly more control over the WILD. That one starts with me playing a game of word, phrase, and image associations with myself, gradually picking up speed until the associations occur automatically, one after another; it has the added benefit of emulating what actually happens to our thoughts as we begin sleeping. But the important thing is they eventually work in an autonomous fashion, which _is_ the overall goal for Mental Anchors.

Of course, *the anchors I've listed aren't your only options*. In fact, *most of these probably won't work for you*. Inevitably, *you're going to have to find an anchor that does work* for you. *No one can do that except you*.

And that's where I'll leave you. 

*Conclusion:*

Hopefully, this has shed some overdue light on what it takes to WILD. Remember, these building blocks all work in tandem; keep that in mind when you begin design on your own WILD style. As always, if you have questions, comments, concerns, or flames, I'll be sure to address them. But I'm warning you right now, I'll likely ignore any questions that are explicitly answered by bolded portions of the OP.

So, until next time. . .

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## mountainape

Looks great! will follow this tonight! first post!>?

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## NrElAx

Thanks a bunch. There's always so many questions about WILDing and this should clear some things up for many others and myself. One question about your second mental anchor. Can you explain the "game of word" you mentioned? I didn't quit understand that.

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## Mzzkc

"Game of word, phrase, and image associations," was the full quote. Are you familiar with the forum game where one person posts a word, then another person posts a word they associate with the previous word?  For instance:

First Poster: Banana
Second Poster: Ice-Cream
Third Poster: Snow
etc.

Well, it's like that, but I do it with myself, and I don't limit the game to words. This allows for a more freewheeled approach that lends itself well to automation.

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## ImAsleep

Thanks!
I've only had 1 successful WILD hopefully this guide will help me achieve more  :smiley: .

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## dreamspinner

I tend to visualize a scenerio and play it out for a bit then after that random thoughts take over and every once in a while i bring back the original scenerio and it is very effective for me.

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## Robot_Butler

I'm glad you stressed the importance of *being comfortable and falling asleep*.  It sounds so obvious, but many people seem to forget about it.  I see too many guides that make it sound like you need to just lie in bed for an hour, in an uncomfortable position, absolutely frozen, and hope something magic will happen.

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## Skydreamer707

Holy crap. you sir, are excellent at explaining the unexplainable!  ::D:  i LOVE the way you described the mental anchors bit. Ive always been fascinated with how the mind takes over automatically as you fall asleep, and couldnt daydreaming be a mental anchor? You have to set up the intinal day dream but as you fall asleep it takes on a life of its own, plus it seems more natural then counting and a lot more fun.
Just a suggestion  :smiley: 
I agree with robot butler, a lot of guides on here can be misleading. glad to see someone posting something that explains more about the Mindset needed.
Man wish you were around posting this stuff when i was a Newbie. Would have saved me a year of wasted effort.

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## Romansp

This guide is excellent and extremely well written!

I wonder if it is possible to use daydreaming as an anchor. It seems possible, but daydreaming might involve concentrating too hard and letting your mind wander is (in my case) a way to _completely_ loose conciousness.

Anyways if I attempt a WILD during the weekend, I'll keep this advice in mind. (or, for the sake of a bad pun: I'll keep this advice out of my mind  ::D: )

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## Marton

I had a lucid dream last night after read reeding this thread. Thanks alot! I haven't had a lucid dream in months!

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## jimmy2times

> letting your mind wander is (in my case) a way to _completely_ loose conciousness.



I have tried daydreaming before and that's the problem I have. I always end up just falling asleep. I haven't really found an anchor that works for me yet. I think I've gotten close with counting though. I start to feel kind of tingly but then my breathing gets really loud and I feel my heart rate increase and it goes away. I guess I just need to calm down.  ::?: 

By the way, thanks for this guide! It's very informative.  ::goodjob2::

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## vmenge

First of all, thank you Mzzkc for such a wonderful guide. I have read another topic of yours which was also really helpful.
I've been using things I learned from this guide and arby's VILD guide to try and have a WILD/VILD, but I always reach the same impasse: whenever I start reaching SP, and all the sound in the world sounds like it's going through a leslie speaker, numbness starts reaching down and... it goes away. Just simply goes away. Every single freakin' time  :Sad: 
Even if I just lay there and try my hardest not to think about it, it comes back aaaaaand goes away. I'm thinking this is because when it starts I can't help but notice it and think about it. My last few tries I tried REALLY REALLY hard NOT to think about it, which I think is what is ruining my attempt  :tongue2: 
Which sucks, because either I think about it, or I think about NOT thinking about it  ::D: 

Anyways... any tips?  :smiley:

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## Mzzkc

I think what you need is a good distraction. If I ever find myself focusing on those vibrations, I shift all that attention to the anchor I'm using. It's not ideal, but it's better than paying the sensation too much thought.

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## vmenge

> I think what you need is a good distraction. If I ever find myself focusing on those vibrations, I shift all that attention to the anchor I'm using. It's not ideal, but it's better than paying the sensation too much thought.



Except my thoughts start getting desperate on their own in an uncontrollable way.
For example, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine (in my mind, helps me sleep and keep myself awake at the same time) about peanuts. Then SP came in, and I was like "wooo, what's this trippy-- oh crap SP! can't think about it! PEANUTS PEANUTS PEANUTS OMG SP PEANUTS PEANUTS PEANUTS PEANUTS OMG SP" or something like that. And I feel calm while thinking that, but it gets desperate and somehow calm at the same time.
I guess I just need to hit the start of SP enough times so that it gets banal and doesn't automatically leave an impression on me, amirite?  ::D:

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## Mzzkc

You are correct; familiarization helps immensely. And that kind of thought pattern isn't the end of the world. I've experienced similar desperation during WILD attempts, but turned that loudly thought, one word/phrase repetition into an impromptu anchor and managed a successful WILD. No one ever said you have to use the same anchor throughout your attempt. ^.^

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## Mzzkc

It was rude of me not to address this sooner, but, yes, I believe daydreaming could be used a viable anchor. I'll take it one step further and suggest daydreaming would be akin to visualization, meaning much of the same tricks (like transitional techniques) apply. As has been said, though, the biggest issue you'll have with daydreaming is losing yourself in it and falling asleep normally,

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## elemental135

Thanks so much for this tutorial!
Never again will I lay motionless in bed for an hour only to fail.
I'm definately trying this tonight, and I have an idea for my anchor. I listen to music when I sleep, so if I tried WILDing with my headphones in, I could visualize images to go along with the lyrics. 
I'll report my results tomorrow.  :smiley:

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## SKA

Hi it's an excellent, detailed explanation of WILD.
My problem with WILD has allways been the Anchor. No anchor seems to capture my attention tight enough. 
I tried counting, focussing on breaths, visualisation...but whatever I do my attention seems to slip away from the anchor, being distracted by one of my MANY spontanious thoughts and feelings.

I was thinking that it was logical to get distracted if my head is so full and chaotic to begin with. I realised I cannot focus enough to hold on to an anchor, because first I need to significantly empty and calm my Mind.
I desperately need mental space to be freed up. Off course I could do this by frequent meditation uppon "Emptyness". I could also do this by meditating uppon my Chakras and Chanting the Corresponding tone to open them.

*My personal Anchoring method:*
I am a generally chaotic person and I noticed that saying out loud, litterally and word for word, everything I am doing helped me to be focussed and mindfull about my actions.
If I washed the dishes I would Anchor my focus by saying: "_Picking up glass, Washing in hot water, adding soap, scrub scrub scrub, wash off with hot water, allow to dry..._"
Litterally I would say what I did word for word. And sure enough I wouldn't get the chance to be distracted off of my tasks anymore.

This method I developped to prevent myself from being constantly distracted from mandatory, boring tasks like washing the dishes and cleaning up the house.
Speaking out my actions forces me to be aware of what I'm doing constantly. At the same time it doesn't give me much time to wander off into distractions.


This method isn't very suitable as a WILD-anchor. Speaking out loud would make it harder to fall asleep. Also while falling asleep you do practically nothing, so there's hardily anything to speak out loud about or to focus on for that matter.
I have noticed that external Anchors, like MP3s, will become ineffective as one gets used to it and at one point will no longer percieve external stimuli of any kind.




I think that instead of trying to focus harder on the anchor, we should try to drastically bring down the frequency of excited, random, distracting thoughts. 
I can imagine focussing 1 anchor, without being disturved for an extended period, wouldn't at ALL be so difficult if my internal dialogue was "slowed down" significantly, or better; switched off completely.

I have been trying far too hard focussing harder to achieve WILD, to no avail.
My mind was simply waaay to restless, being flooded with a random, distracting thought every +/- 20 seconds. 
So I will have to bring down the hyperactivity of my inner dialogue, before I can hope to focus on 1 thing undisturbed for extended periods of time.

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## elemental135

Okay, wow. I'm not really sure if the WILD was entirely successful, because I didn't get any of the sensations associated with WILDing, but several minutes into my attempt, I suddenly found myself in a dream. It was definately the most vivid lucid dream I've ever had! I woke up immediately after the dream.

WILDing has never worked for me before. Thank you so much, Mzzkc!

Off topic, but, how is your username pronounced?

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## Mzzkc

> Hi it's an excellent, detailed explanation of WILD.
> My problem with WILD has allways been the Anchor. No anchor seems to capture my attention tight enough. 
> I tried counting, focussing on breaths, visualisation...but whatever I do my attention seems to slip away from the anchor, being distracted by one of my MANY spontanious thoughts and feelings.
> 
> I was thinking that it was logical to get distracted if my head is so full and chaotic to begin with. I realised I cannot focus enough to hold on to an anchor, because first I need to significantly empty and calm my Mind.
> I desperately need mental space to be freed up. Off course I could do this by frequent meditation uppon "Emptyness". I could also do this by meditating uppon my Chakras and Chanting the Corresponding tone to open them.
> 
> *My personal Anchoring method:*
> I am a generally chaotic person and I noticed that saying out loud, litterally and word for word, everything I am doing helped me to be focussed and mindfull about my actions.
> ...



That's what relaxation helps accomplish. I think you owe it to yourself to try some of the more detailed relaxation techniques out there before your attempts, as they are often incredibly good at clearing out inner dialogue. My personal favorite is one Ninja posted awhile back wherein the practitioner takes deep, long breaths, and counts down from 100 on each one. I've always had amazing results with that, typically before I ever hit one.

And I wouldn't worry about Anchors losing their effectiveness, as the easier it is to fall asleep with them, the better. All they're supposed to be is something you can just barely latch onto as you drift to sleep. Too much focus is bad, but not enough will make you lose consciousness.





> Okay, wow. I'm not really sure if the WILD was entirely successful, because I didn't get any of the sensations associated with WILDing, but several minutes into my attempt, I suddenly found myself in a dream. It was definately the most vivid lucid dream I've ever had! I woke up immediately after the dream.
> 
> WILDing has never worked for me before. Thank you so much, Mzzkc!
> 
> Off topic, but, how is your username pronounced?



The fact that you didn't notice anything you'd typically associate with WILD is a good thing, as most of that stuff only happens occasionally, and putting too much attention on it when it does usually ends poorly. It seems to me like you're doing it right. XP

Anyways, I'm glad I could help, and my name is pronounced with two soft i's, one between the M-z, the other between the z-k.

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## MatrixMaster92

Great guide Mzzkc, sooner or later I am gonna learn this because I try it every night.

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## Azalin

Would the sound of my airconditioning be quite good mental external anchor?

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## Mzzkc

There's only one way to find out.

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## Ayanizz

I'm actually thinking of trying some of this out... The "word, phrase, image" association thingy sounds like something that might work for me since I used to use it as a means to keep my mind busy during slower hours of day or moments of extreme boredom :smiley:  As it stands right now though I know that I'm not trained enough yet, and that I have immense trouble to stay aware. So I guess I'm doing quite the opposite of most people trying to WILD, I focus more on the falling asleep part:p

Anyway, a few questions about your signature... It says 92 as WILD count, and then it goes on about how many LD's in one day, week, month, etc. which leads me to think that most of your LD's are not WILD's. So: what is the method you have most success with, and if you set your mind on WILDing, what's the roughly estimated percentage of it actually working?
And also: I only sleep about 6 hours a night, which seems to be enough for me...Is this sufficient to WILD?

Thanks in advance :smiley:

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## Mzzkc

Yeah, I have trouble WILDing because of how hard it is for me to fall asleep due to the environment I live in (dorm room with less than considerate roommate) and various health reasons, so my primary means of LDing is through DILDs and MILDs, but I typically use WILDs to chain those together whenever I can remember. 

When I do attempt WILDs, it's typically only when I can check off most of the things on the falling asleep check-list (not often); late-morning/afternoon naps tend to be the best time for me. My overall success rate is around 75-80% for straight WILDs, and nearly 100% for the more flavorful DEILD, to which I apply the same method.

In regards to the amount of time you sleep: it depends on what your REM periods are like. A good way find your ideal WILD time is to recognize when, during the the night, you begin having longer, more intense dreams. For me it's usually 3-4 awakenings into the night, but, as a general rule of thumb, your longest REM period will be the one you have before getting up for the day. So, if all else fails, attempt your WILD 4 hours and 30 minutes into the night and hope for the best.

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## juroara

Thanks for writing this! I haven't tried to WILD in so long, feel like trying it again. The anchor was always my problem. Either I was way too focused or just fell asleep. Looking forward to trying out new anchors.

Stay lucid!

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## cmind

Whoever said daydreaming could be an anchor is right. I've used daydreams as an anchor many times. It's just a matter of letting the daydream flow naturally without losing consciousness in the process.

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## kitty200049

Is focusing on the back of your eyelids and repeating a mantra a good anchor? I've found that the mantra alone is not enough of an anchor. Once I started looking at my eyelids AND chanting I actually entered into SP, but snapped out of it and no dreams. Am I too aware or too excited?

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## Skydreamer707

@Kitty (even though technically your not asking me, i wanted to throw in my 2cents if thats ok?)
to me, your focusing too much on the thought of WILDing. You need to just think "im going to sleep, im tired" and then like count sheep if numbers work for you.For me, as your mind falls asleep It WILL wander. Thats what it does. its up to you to remain aware of where its going though...
Im not an expert but, i do what i normally do before i fall asleep. it helps put me in the right mindset.
Do you normally stare at the black of your eyelids or Chant Mantras Excessively before you sleep? i didnt think so (or maybe you do? O_o)
I think if your doing super weird stuff that you dont normally do, your mind is going to stay too awake and be like "wtf is she doing?"

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## Mzzkc

Skydreamer is right. If it helps you stay aware, that's a good thing, but if it's preventing you from falling asleep, for whatever reason, then consider trying something different.

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## aktw4

I'm having trouble finding a suitable anchor. When I try something simple like repeating 1 and 2, or counting, or monitoring my breathing, I can't make it become 'automatic'. I still have to think about it to make it work, but then I can't sleep. But if I don't concentrate on it, random thoughts will take over and I drift off to sleep normally.

What do I do?  :Sad:

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## Mzzkc

Try switching to an Environmental Anchor. They're easier for most people to use.

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## AurumKnight

Hey, thanks for this guide, it really helped me out by clearing up misconceptions that I had.  I just had two lucids last night, one using pain as an anchor (hand under body) and the other using my sleeping mask.  This was my first (and second!) WILD experience, so thanks!

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## cmind

Mzzkc, you should put in bold letters at the top of your guide, "KISS (Keep it Simple, Stupid)". It's so funny seeing all the horribly ridiculous magical things that people come up with, because they THINK it's supposed to be that complicated  :Picard face palm:

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## guitardreamer

I'm gonna try this sometime!

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## aktw4

Moar questions.

How is the anchor suppose to work? Does it keep you alert while you fall asleep, or make you alert after you have fallen asleep? That's how I encounter all of my SP, is from becoming alert somehow after I have fallen asleep.

And another question, WILD takes practice right? Can a WILD be pulled off on demand if you have mastered a technique?

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## Mzzkc

> Hey, thanks for this guide, it really helped me out by clearing up misconceptions that I had.  I just had two lucids last night, one using pain as an anchor (hand under body) and the other using my sleeping mask.  This was my first (and second!) WILD experience, so thanks!



Glad I could help!





> Mzzkc, you should put in bold letters at the top of your guide, "KISS (Keep it Simple, Stupid)". It's so funny seeing all the horribly ridiculous magical things that people come up with, because they THINK it's supposed to be that complicated



Haha, you have to admit, some of those things can be interesting from time to time. 





> I'm gonna try this sometime!



Let us know how it goes. ^.^





> Moar questions.
> 
> How is the anchor suppose to work? Does it keep you alert while you fall asleep, or make you alert after you have fallen asleep? That's how I encounter all of my SP, is from becoming alert somehow after I have fallen asleep.
> 
> And another question, WILD takes practice right? Can a WILD be pulled off on demand if you have mastered a technique?



Anchors are meant to help you maintain awareness while falling asleep. It is possible to develop one that'll make you alert right as you transition, but, by definition, falling asleep without awareness only to become aware while sleeping is not a WILD. Do note there's a key difference between drifting off for a short while and actually falling asleep.

It is possible to obtain mastery of the technique, allowing WILDs on demand, but there's only one person I know of who has achieved that level of proficiency.

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## Shadowmilo

Why the heck doesnt this and BillyBobs guide have a sticky in all things related to WILDing and general info? I mean cmon, this crap is the best stuf youll find!!! GOOD JOB!!






> It is possible to obtain mastery of the technique, allowing WILDs on demand, but there's only one person I know of who has achieved that level of proficiency.



LaBerge? Lol. How good woudl that be just to go, oh i want to do something i cant do in the real world. Blam.... WILD and your done. What a lucky person. I bet if you tried to WILD the correct way, every night at a relatively even time for 3-5 years, you would master it. To keep doing it on the other hand is hard work lol.

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## ASmitt

Absolutely amazing, Mzzkc!!!
I've been at this for years now and have only ever once felt vibrations, during a WBTB attempt. Never felt SP or experienced a successful WILD. In fact, over the past 4 or 5 years, I've only experienced a small handful (8-10) LDs, with 6 being only seconds long, and on the same morning. I've always read that you need to stay perfectly still, hands to your side and feet apart, waiting until you drift into a LD. That never made sense to me, as I always felt like I could never relax that way. Not to mention, an unknown medical condition has me with a permanent nasal congestion and permanent cough problem. It's such a relief to know that I can cough, sniff, scratch and swallow if I need to!!! I really feel confident after reading this, so thank you.

And I'm sure I may need to try this myself to get a _real_ answer, but what do you (all) think about visualizing your own reflection as an anchor? For many people, it's hard to picture what you look like. It takes time. And from what I've read, you could slip into a LD in around 15 minutes, so this might be a good method. Besides, I've never had a successful WILD, so I was hoping a few experienced members might feel like giving it a try!

Thanks again!!!  ::biggrin::

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## Shadowmilo

Yeah i know what you mean ASmitt. I tried using this guide the last two nights to WILD, re-reading this from time to time clears up things i have forgortten, it makes it sound easier, and in all aspects if you do it right it shouldnt be TOO hard, but i really struggled and just cant grasp how to WILD yet. I used me holding my phone as an anchor, for the first wild attempt it went ok, i kept forgetting about it and went back to it, and i bet i was close ot something, but i forgot and drifted :/. My mind was all like, puppy, house, bike, PHONE, beach, tree, swings, tyres, shoes, PHONE. lol. I think it would be a good idea and a bad idea if someone ecplained the shift from reality to dreaming in detail, because i dont know what i should expect, and if im close or not....

Yeah ASmitt, bet your glad i threw you this link now huh. lol

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## Mzzkc

> Why the heck doesnt this and BillyBobs guide have a sticky in all things related to WILDing and general info? I mean cmon, this crap is the best stuf youll find!!! GOOD JOB!!



User guides tend not to get stickied, no matter how useful they are. But thanks for the praise.





> LaBerge? Lol. How good woudl that be just to go, oh i want to do something i cant do in the real world. Blam.... WILD and your done. What a lucky person. I bet if you tried to WILD the correct way, every night at a relatively even time for 3-5 years, you would master it. To keep doing it on the other hand is hard work lol.



Haha, I really don't know how good at WILDing LaBerge is. Nah, I was thinking of someone else who I won't name out of respect for his privacy.

As to what it takes to master WILD, I think you've got a good idea, but, as you said, committing to something like that is something else entirely.





> Absolutely amazing, Mzzkc!!!
> I've been at this for years now and have only ever once felt vibrations, during a WBTB attempt. Never felt SP or experienced a successful WILD. In fact, over the past 4 or 5 years, I've only experienced a small handful (8-10) LDs, with 6 being only seconds long, and on the same morning. I've always read that you need to stay perfectly still, hands to your side and feet apart, waiting until you drift into a LD. That never made sense to me, as I always felt like I could never relax that way. Not to mention, an unknown medical condition has me with a permanent nasal congestion and permanent cough problem. It's such a relief to know that I can cough, sniff, scratch and swallow if I need to!!! I really feel confident after reading this, so thank you.



I hope this approach will bring you some new results. ^.^

But keep in mind, it's best not to move unless something is really disrupting your ability to sleep.





> And I'm sure I may need to try this myself to get a _real_ answer, but what do you (all) think about visualizing your own reflection as an anchor? For many people, it's hard to picture what you look like. It takes time. And from what I've read, you could slip into a LD in around 15 minutes, so this might be a good method. Besides, I've never had a successful WILD, so I was hoping a few experienced members might feel like giving it a try!



I think something like that might heavily depend on the person. Give it a shot, and if it seems like it's taking too much of your attention, maybe try dialing down the detail or switching it up entirely.





> Yeah i know what you mean ASmitt. I tried using this guide the last two nights to WILD, re-reading this from time to time clears up things i have forgortten,



I think that's partly my fault. The guide's prose needs a bit of a touch-up.





> it makes it sound easier, and in all aspects if you do it right it shouldnt be TOO hard, but i really struggled and just cant grasp how to WILD yet. I used me holding my phone as an anchor, for the first wild attempt it went ok, i kept forgetting about it and went back to it, and i bet i was close ot something, but i forgot and drifted :/. My mind was all like, puppy, house, bike, PHONE, beach, tree, swings, tyres, shoes, PHONE. lol. I think it would be a good idea and a bad idea if someone ecplained the shift from reality to dreaming in detail, because i dont know what i should expect, and if im close or not....



Those associations sound like you were definitely making progress. That sort of things tends to happen right before the onset of legit SP, so if you can make it through that phase with just enough awareness to recognize what's happening, you'll be in the home stretch.

----------


## Ayanizz

> Those associations sound like you were definitely making progress. That sort of things tends to happen right before the onset of legit SP, so if you can make it through that phase with just enough awareness to recognize what's happening, you'll be in the home stretch.



That is what I usually find the hardest  :smiley:  Because it is something your brain is already used to doing out of itself, it's kinda hard at times to stay aware. The beginning is nothing, as you know it's you making the associations, but as soon as the brain starts taking over, that's when my struggle starts:p

----------


## Shadowmilo

> Those associations sound like you were definitely making progress. That sort of things tends to happen right before the onset of legit SP, so if you can make it through that phase with just enough awareness to recognize what's happening, you'll be in the home stretch.



So, your saying that if i can just hold on to (what im using now, my phone) hold onto the thought of my phone, long enoguh to get into SP then im 98% through? I think i might need to stay up for 20mins, because i find it difficult to keep coming back to my phone, all i want to do is sleep, which is definately a good thing, but trying to get back to the phone is really hard. So maybe 20mins of staying up, should then give me enough brain power to work it and get through it? Do you think?
I find it amusing how i read this guide, and everything becomes a whole lot easier again lol.

Cheers man, you've done REALLY well.

----------


## ASmitt

> I hope this approach will bring you some new results. ^.^
> 
> But keep in mind, it's best not to move unless something is really disrupting your ability to sleep.



Well the issue is that I try not to disrupt my sleep by not coughing, which causes me to focus on not coughing, which makes me want to cough more. Normally I'd just cough and be done with it, so I'm just going to stay calm and relaxed and try to sleep as I normally would while trying out my reflection technique. I really hope this works!!!





> Yeah ASmitt, bet your glad i threw you this link now huh. lol



You have no idea! Thanks again!

----------


## mcwillis

> First of all, thank you Mzzkc for such a wonderful guide. I have read another topic of yours which was also really helpful.
> I've been using things I learned from this guide and arby's VILD guide to try and have a WILD/VILD, but I always reach the same impasse: whenever I start reaching SP, and all the sound in the world sounds like it's going through a leslie speaker, numbness starts reaching down and... it goes away. Just simply goes away. Every single freakin' time 
> Even if I just lay there and try my hardest not to think about it, it comes back aaaaaand goes away. I'm thinking this is because when it starts I can't help but notice it and think about it. My last few tries I tried REALLY REALLY hard NOT to think about it, which I think is what is ruining my attempt 
> Which sucks, because either I think about it, or I think about NOT thinking about it 
> 
> Anyways... any tips?



If your HI and vibrations are going away then that may be good because if you are relaxing through the vibration stage then that is a good sign that you are even closer to SP and a lucid.

----------


## Mzzkc

> If your HI and vibrations are going away then that may be good because if you are relaxing through the vibration stage then that is a good sign that you are even closer to SP and a lucid.



That's definitely true if he gets past the first round, as oftentimes there are two instances of N1 sleep before hitting REM and SP. But if he's still not hitting SP after the second or third time through, which seems to be the case, something else might be the problem. Good call, though.

----------


## Raspberry

I think i'd get somewhere with being concious of my breathing. I tried to WILD with it during a nap but the house is busy with family. What happens is I feel like I'm about to drop asleep and whatever I think about, I get a very clear image in my head, but I only notice after it's gone away. So I was trying to sleep/WILD and I see this giant purple eye and I feel like I'm sinking and just about there, I couldn't really feel my body because I just wasn't concious enough, and then BAM! Someone dropped something and I woke up.

 :Sad:  That could have possibly been my first WILD. Aw well.

So I'm going to try tonight. I'm gonna get up for a few minutes then just get comfy and absently observe my breathing (not controlling it) and whatever goes through my head.  ::D: 

Thank you Mzzkc for this awesome guide, and I look forward to any more you make in the future, if you're planning any   :smiley:

----------


## zebrah

Raspberry earplugs or earbuds work really well. Unless they distract you.

----------


## Raspberry

Well, I tried, but fell asleep too quickly. The dream was more vivid though. I think if I stay up for another 5 minutes or so, it could work  :wink2:  I'll just need to tweak things until they work out.

And yeah earplugs annoy the hell out of me. I've got small ears  :Sad:

----------


## Mzzkc

> Well, I tried, but fell asleep too quickly. The dream was more vivid though. I think if I stay up for another 5 minutes or so, it could work  I'll just need to tweak things until they work out.
> 
> And yeah earplugs annoy the hell out of me. I've got small ears



I'm pretty sure you can buy slim-profile earplugs.

----------


## Raspberry

> I'm pretty sure you can buy slim-profile earplugs.



Yeah I better look for them because my neighbors are so loud and they're always waking me up.

----------


## Different

this guide is pro.

And just a quick few questions:

Environmental anchors - say if I use my clock as one, is the idea of it that my clock would I don't know...tick faster which would help me realise the transition from reality to dream world has been completed, or is it purely to keep your brain awake for when the transition happens?

Also, does one open their eyes upon WILDing, thus seeing the dreamscape before them (FA), or does a dreamscape form with their eyes still closed?
Just I'm a bit baffled about the eyes.


ty

----------


## Mzzkc

> Environmental anchors - say if I use my clock as one, is the idea of it that my clock would I don't know...tick faster which would help me realise the transition from reality to dream world has been completed, or is it purely to keep your brain awake for when the transition happens?



Both, sorta. Ideally, your Environmental Anchor will completely disappear once you get through the transition. In practice, however, you'll sometimes have Environmental Anchors bleed into the dream. Music, for instance, has been known to occasionally follow dreamers into lucidity.





> Also, does one open their eyes upon WILDing, thus seeing the dreamscape before them (FA), or does a dreamscape form with their eyes still closed?
> Just I'm a bit baffled about the eyes.



You never have to open your real eyes. Sometimes, the dream may form with you lying in bed with your dream eyes closed. It's good practice to RC, in order to confirm you're asleep, before opening your dream eyes. My best advice is that you don't focus on this process too much and let your brain sort it all out on its own.

----------


## Bmahon26

just came across this guide, very well written, im new to all of this and I was using the mental anchor of lucid dreaming itself, I would focus on not letting my mind wander and stay focused on the fact that I will maintain my awareness, is this an effective way of using a mental anchor?

----------


## dreamspinner

I have an idea for an anchor. How about observing the assoications that your brain makes and realising the randomness of some. This will help in staying awake and may also result in a DILD becouse before sleep you were already criticaly thinking about the random images/sounds/ideas that came up which also come up in a dream.

----------


## Mzzkc

> just came across this guide, very well written, im new to all of this and I was using the mental anchor of lucid dreaming itself, I would focus on not letting my mind wander and stay focused on the fact that I will maintain my awareness, is this an effective way of using a mental anchor?



As long as you can do all that passively and you have no trouble falling asleep, it's fine. Personally, that approach always kept me too awake.





> I have an idea for an anchor. How about observing the assoications that your brain makes and realising the randomness of some. This will help in staying awake and may also result in a DILD becouse before sleep you were already criticaly thinking about the random images/sounds/ideas that came up which also come up in a dream.



Observing thoughts is fine, and has been shown to work. However, if you take too much notice of those thoughts and/or try to control them, you'll probably be disrupting the process too much. It's worth a shot, but I have my doubts it would be an effective anchor. Still, don't let that stop your from experimenting with it.

----------


## Different

> Both, sorta. Ideally, your Environmental Anchor will completely disappear once you get through the transition. In practice, however, you'll sometimes have Environmental Anchors bleed into the dream. Music, for instance, has been known to occasionally follow dreamers into lucidity.
> 
> 
> 
> You never have to open your real eyes. Sometimes, the dream may form with you lying in bed with your dream eyes closed. It's good practice to RC, in order to confirm you're asleep, before opening your dream eyes. My best advice is that you don't focus on this process too much and let your brain sort it all out on its own.



Can you please offer me some advice as to what I did wrong/just a general comment.
This happened last night in the middle of the night. Presumably an unintentional WILD?

'I'm lying in my bed. Next thing I know, I feel that I'm standing. Then I'm lying down. I look at my radiator on the other side of my bed, by my feet. I notice it has significantly moved and looks strange. Then I turn around. Pitch black. I do a nose plug reality check. I can breathe. Utter darkness. I just don't know what's going on, and try to wake up. I TRY TO OPEN MY EYES - I CAN'T. But when I think of my real body, I get back into my real body, and can move it. I close my eyes again and get straight back into this pitch black place; standing in what I think should be my room. I consider just jumping forward, hoping I'm lucid, but I resist this urge, with the doubt that if I'm not dreaming, I'm going to get hurt like an idiot. Also, I tried screaming 'DAD!' but I didn't hear anything come out of my mouth. I manage to get back into my real body again, and then end up sleeping as per normal. The dream after this was a DILD lucid dream.'

----------


## Mzzkc

I mean, to me, it sounds like you had a string of odd FAs. Not really sure what triggered it, but I can't say very well say it was a WILD since the only thing I know before the whole mess started is that you were lying in bed.

----------


## Raspberry

Whenever I try to WILD I forget and move around. Then i remember and think "damn!". I tense up a lot aswell, no matter how much stretching out i do beforehand :/

It's a work in progress.

----------


## insideout

I'm not sure what happened. For the past two weeks I have been attempting to WILD every night. For the first week I seemed to be getting better at it, with three successful WILDs. But more recently I can't seem to do it right anymore. I know basically how I'm suppose to do it, what mindset and such, but I can't seem to do it as well. I end up being uncomfortable and moving, or thinking too much. I guess I suddenly got more anxious about it.
Perhaps thinking "I'm getting better at this" made me too excited or something.

----------


## totow

Hey guys, i hope you make it to the other side. I am still at the noob phase of everything. Still i got one question regarding this method. Can i think of music in the back of my head and then just concentrate on what words come next in the song untill i get IH sounds from it? Will that work? 

Peace

----------


## oneironeer

Well, this post made a lot of sense to me, because last week, I had a WILD attempt that landed me with TONS of false awakenings, and had I been wearing a mask, I could've said, "Where's your mask?" Of course, in one false awakening, the lights were magically on, and I didn't question that at all. But if I fell asleep thinking, "Mask? Check. -- Dog, Pound, Cake, Frosting, Snow... Mask? Check.", I might have became lucid faster.

So I got a sleep mask, put in my earplugs, and played some Isotones that I made last night that dipped between 4Hz and 12Hz, and laid in my "sleep chamber" (ie. closet). I felt myself INSTANTLY about to fall asleep, and confused, "Wait, what am I supposed to do now? I'm wearing my mask? Eh, yeah... now what? Um, I guess I'll count to 4, wiggle my toe, mental check the mask..." and I was asleep.

Didn't WILD, just fell asleep. I'm a little fuzzy about all this now.

----------


## Mzzkc

> Whenever I try to WILD I forget and move around. Then i remember and think "damn!". I tense up a lot aswell, no matter how much stretching out i do beforehand :/
> 
> It's a work in progress.



Just relax. ^.^

Before you WILD, take your mind off everything else by listening to some nice music, reading a book, or whatever you normally do to clear your head and loosen up.





> I'm not sure what happened. For the past two weeks I have been attempting to WILD every night. For the first week I seemed to be getting better at it, with three successful WILDs. But more recently I can't seem to do it right anymore. I know basically how I'm suppose to do it, what mindset and such, but I can't seem to do it as well. I end up being uncomfortable and moving, or thinking too much. I guess I suddenly got more anxious about it.
> Perhaps thinking "I'm getting better at this" made me too excited or something.



I've run into this a couple time myself. You have to be humble about the skill, or else you might feel like you've got a lot to live up to and every WILD attempt is super important. If you place too much importance on succeeding you might set yourself up for a loop of failures, as a direct result of the altered mindset. Remember, it's alright to fail! It's not like that attempt was the last of your life or anything. 

Hopefully, anyways. >.>





> Hey guys, i hope you make it to the other side. I am still at the noob phase of everything. Still i got one question regarding this method. Can i think of music in the back of my head and then just concentrate on what words come next in the song untill i get IH sounds from it? Will that work? 
> 
> Peace



Are you listening to music here, or just recalling the lyrics? In either case, as long as you can do it passively, you're set. Different things work for different people, so you'll never know what works for you unless you experiment.





> Well, this post made a lot of sense to me, because last week, I had a WILD attempt that landed me with TONS of false awakenings, and had I been wearing a mask, I could've said, "Where's your mask?" Of course, in one false awakening, the lights were magically on, and I didn't question that at all. But if I fell asleep thinking, "Mask? Check. -- Dog, Pound, Cake, Frosting, Snow... Mask? Check.", I might have became lucid faster.
> 
> So I got a sleep mask, put in my earplugs, and played some Isotones that I made last night that dipped between 4Hz and 12Hz, and laid in my "sleep chamber" (ie. closet). I felt myself INSTANTLY about to fall asleep, and confused, "Wait, what am I supposed to do now? I'm wearing my mask? Eh, yeah... now what? Um, I guess I'll count to 4, wiggle my toe, mental check the mask..." and I was asleep.
> 
> Didn't WILD, just fell asleep. I'm a little fuzzy about all this now.



It takes a bit of mental discipline to hold on without falling completely asleep. You're on the right track, but I don't think I can give you any specific advice besides emphasizing the importance of practice. I'm not sure what effects the isos had, but there's a lot you can play around with here.

----------


## bobtoeback

Will be trying this tonight. I plan n using my air purifier for an anchor since I leave it on all night anyway. Thanks!

----------


## Sarge_Maximus2

I tried this technique (well, BillyBob's and this I guess) this morning. I woke up, but was so groggy (and scared that I'd wake myself up too much) that I just resorted to doing a bunch of reality checks to awaken the logic center of my rain. I then tried a various number of anchors: an air purifier in my room, but when that wasn't working, I tried counting. finally, I placed my hand under my back and eventually entered into a dream. It was perfectly real, but it wasn't lucid, nor was I aware I was dreaming. So I guess I have a question: How do you be "passive"? Like, what exactly are you saying? In my opinion, I'm passively aware of everything, so some clarity on what that may feel like or watever would be appreciated, secondly, Am I supposed to keep my mind awake or try to fall asleep fully? Like, you mentioned to a user above how you need to "hold on"... hold on to what may I ask? Anyhow, I know you've probably explained all this as best you can, but it doesn't make any sense to me in these terms with little explanation, so whatever you could do to try and represent it better and give me a "road map" or sorts would be especially helpfull. Thanks.

----------


## Mzzkc

> I tried this technique (well, BillyBob's and this I guess) this morning. I woke up, but was so groggy (and scared that I'd wake myself up too much) that I just resorted to doing a bunch of reality checks to awaken the logic center of my rain. I then tried a various number of anchors: an air purifier in my room, but when that wasn't working, I tried counting. finally, I placed my hand under my back and eventually entered into a dream. It was perfectly real, but it wasn't lucid, nor was I aware I was dreaming. So I guess I have a question: How do you be "passive"? Like, what exactly are you saying? In my opinion, I'm passively aware of everything, so some clarity on what that may feel like or watever would be appreciated, secondly, Am I supposed to keep my mind awake or try to fall asleep fully? Like, you mentioned to a user above how you need to "hold on"... hold on to what may I ask? Anyhow, I know you've probably explained all this as best you can, but it doesn't make any sense to me in these terms with little explanation, so whatever you could do to try and represent it better and give me a "road map" or sorts would be especially helpfull. Thanks.



The best analogy I can make to describe the passivity requires that you have some experience floating in a calm ocean or a somewhat busy pool. Letting the waves flow about you, like thoughts would drift around your head, as you simply lie there, exerting yourself, your awareness, just enough to stay above the water, but letting everything else simply sink below the surface, fall just beneath the troughs, is essentially the passive state you're aiming for when WILDing. To further the analogy a bit more, if the water is too turbulent, your thoughts too active, you'll likely get distracted by a sudden rush every now again, which will hamper how well you can serenely float.

I hope that helps a bit, sorry this reply was so late. =(

----------


## Sarge_Maximus2

> The best analogy I can make to describe the passivity requires that you have some experience floating in a calm ocean or a somewhat busy pool. Letting the waves flow about you, like thoughts would drift around your head, as you simply lie there, exerting yourself, your awareness, just enough to stay above the water, but letting everything else simply sink below the surface, fall just beneath the troughs, is essentially the passive state you're aiming for when WILDing. To further the analogy a bit more, if the water is too turbulent, your thoughts too active, you'll likely get distracted by a sudden rush every now again, which will hamper how well you can serenely float.
> 
> I hope that helps a bit, sorry this reply was so late. =(



Actually that makes sense to me, and it's better late than never.  :smiley:  I am currently working on Awakening my third eye and wonder if this "floating" you speak of is somewhat like meditating?

----------


## Fluffyp

so this pain anchor i want to try, if i use that do i just focus on the pain or what?

----------


## Mzzkc

> Actually that makes sense to me, and it's better late than never.  I am currently working on Awakening my third eye and wonder if this "floating" you speak of is somewhat like meditating?



It's very similar, yes.





> so this pain anchor i want to try, if i use that do i just focus on the pain or what?



Just enough to keep you aware. But not so much as to keep you from falling asleep.

----------


## Nufeather1

Thanks to your tutorial and Billybob's tutorial I reached SP, but I couldn't progress further due to certain factors (time limit on my nap, and distractions). I feel as if I can perform the WILD fully tonight and go lucid. Thanks for the insight!

----------


## Mzzkc

> Thanks to your tutorial and Billybob's tutorial I reached SP, but I couldn't progress further due to certain factors (time limit on my nap, and distractions). I feel as if I can perform the WILD fully tonight and go lucid. Thanks for the insight!



How'd it end up going, if you don't mind me asking?

----------


## Shadowmilo

> Thanks to your tutorial and Billybob's tutorial I reached SP, but I couldn't progress further due to certain factors (time limit on my nap, and distractions). I feel as if I can perform the WILD fully tonight and go lucid. Thanks for the insight!



Thing is though, you wont WILD at night. Best to try during the day, maybe 7am and onwards.

----------


## NrElAx

> this guide is pro.
> 
> And just a quick few questions:
> 
> Environmental anchors - say if I use my clock as one, is the idea of it that my clock would I don't know...tick faster which would help me realise the transition from reality to dream world has been completed, or is it purely to keep your brain awake for when the transition happens?
> 
> Also, does one open their eyes upon WILDing, thus seeing the dreamscape before them (FA), or does a dreamscape form with their eyes still closed?
> Just I'm a bit baffled about the eyes.
> 
> ...



Did you get the idea of the clock ticking faster from inception? If so, and you are saying the time is moving faster, than that is incorrect. The only way the clock would start ticking faster is if you are already in the dream world and you believe it will tick faster, thus it might tick faster. And if it does, the  you'll know your dreaming and you have transitioned, thus proving your theory to be correct in this instantance lol. So you would be correct in this situation if you understood that at all lol.

----------


## Mzzkc

> Thing is though, you wont WILD at night. Best to try during the day, maybe 7am and onwards.



I'm sure he meant during a WBTB, which is a perfectly legitimate time to WILD. And 7am might be pushing it for some people, especially if they go to bed early.

----------


## Nufeather1

> How'd it end up going, if you don't mind me asking?



So far I haven't been lucid yet since first attempting this WILD method (and the WILD in general), but there is a reason behind that; I haven't been sleeping in a proper scheduele, my sleeping patterns we're off and my concentration has been down. I plan on going back to this method, but first I need to set out the proper fundamentals to help me succeed with this method ( setting a certain sleep pattern up, focus more on the whole process (not when going to bed obviously so I can drift into sleep), and rebuilding my dream recall (seeing as I took a little break)). I plan on becoming more familar with the WILD technique over my summer break. I'll come back to you Mzzkc if I have any questions about the WILD.

----------


## TheModernNinja

Sweet.Im gonna try this tonight.

----------


## NightSpy2

Cool! Looking good! 
Haha, I'm not much of a WILD'er but I might try it some day

----------


## Ctharlhie

Read this over again and realised what a great guide it really is, feeling more confident!

Just one query, could you go into more detail about setting up 'a sentinel of intent', you said something about a MILD exercise, this strongly appeals to me as MILD is my main technique and being able to WILD in the same way I DILD would be really cool  :smiley:

----------


## activa

I've found that listening to (monotonous) speaking that I can barely hear puts me to sleep (my father is a retired minister... probably some connection there  :;-): . Anyway, the voice also seems to be just at the edge of my consciousness when I'm sleeping. Is this what you mean by an anchor, something that's just on the margin of consciousness? I'm going to try this tonight, I'll just have some book being read on iTunes in the background.

----------


## Mzzkc

> Just one query, could you go into more detail about setting up 'a sentinel of intent', you said something about a MILD exercise, this strongly appeals to me as MILD is my main technique and being able to WILD in the same way I DILD would be really cool



I'll write up a thread on esoteric WILD tech sometime soon and include that in there just for you. =)





> I've found that listening to (monotonous) speaking that I can barely hear puts me to sleep (my father is a retired minister... probably some connection there . Anyway, the voice also seems to be just at the edge of my consciousness when I'm sleeping. Is this what you mean by an anchor, something that's just on the margin of consciousness? I'm going to try this tonight, I'll just have some book being read on iTunes in the background.



The anchor is something that helps you keep that thin line of consciousness, yes. In your case, monotonous speaking might be a great anchor. But an anchor doesn't guarantee success, it's just a nice tool to use on the way there.

----------


## LdObe

do you think tinnitus (the small ringing that some people [me] hear when it is dead silent) would be a good anchor?

----------


## Mzzkc

Anything could be a good anchor if you can get it to work for you.

I think there was a short discussion on this exact topic on my other WILD thread.

Here-ish: http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/why-yo...ml#post1797761

----------


## DiogoCDS

Hi, sorry if this question have been answered before but I can't really understand one thing.
Are we supposed to fall asleep but staying aware? Is that even possible? To fall asleep and being aware because it seems impossible for me to do it  :Sad:  

Thanks

----------


## Mzzkc

Yes. Yes. It's called a WILD, people do it all the time.

----------


## cmind

> Yes. Yes. It's called a WILD, people do it all the time.



But not the people that read jeff777's guide. They struggle  :wink2:

----------


## Sageous

^^ Hard as it might be, that is literally what a Wake Induced Lucid Dream is.  You gotta have the "Wake" bit in the formula, or else it isn't a WILD.

And yeah, maintaining waking awareness while your body falls asleep seems counter-intuitive, but it can be done.  it can also be a real bitch to do, too, for what it's worth!

... The best stuff is never easy, no matter what they tell you...

[Sorry Mzzkc; I know it's your thread, but it just came outa me]

----------


## Mzzkc

WILD isn't any harder than DILD.

The knowledge-set required is simply different, as is the training required to see success. The reason so many people perceive an elevated difficulty is that they learn a ton about DILD and almost nothing substantial about WILD. It's one of the many flaws in the current teaching system, and there isn't much a single person can do about it.

----------


## Highlander

> WILD isn't any harder than DILD.



 :Thinking: 

DILD is a piece of p*ss to do in comparison to WILD! 
(It is _not_ a perceived difficulty - You only have to see how many guides are written on the subject and the amount of questions regarding WILD on this forum.)






> The knowledge-set required is simply different, as is the training required to see success. The reason so many people perceive an elevated difficulty is that they learn a ton about DILD and almost nothing substantial about WILD. It's one of the many flaws in the current teaching system, and there isn't much a single person can do about it.



I never had to learn anything originally about DILD, as I was (unknowingly) doing it naturally, albeit infrequently before I even read about such things.

With DILD, all you have to do is practice some form of WBTB after 5 or more hours sleep, know a couple of RC checks, have good recall and be a bit motivated. The 'so called' hard part is by gaining AWARENESS that you are dreaming, which is in my view the fundamental tenent of most (if not all) LD techniques out there.

In my experience WILD takes a great deal of effort, dedication and time to get to know your own body and mind, even if you have experience of LD, via the other techniques.  :smiley:

----------


## Mzzkc

> DILD is a piece of p*ss to do in comparison to WILD! 
> (It is _not_ a perceived difficulty - You only have to see how many guides are written on the subject and the amount of questions regarding WILD on this forum.)



This is a fallacy in logic. Quantity does not point to content or quality.

If anything, your assertion supports my point that people don't take the time to learn about transitioning from waking and what it encompasses. Referencing the post made by DiogoCDS, it's clear even the simplest aspect of WILD (it's definition) isn't readily grasped by the uninitiated, even in a thread like this where the OP discusses things at length.

As Diogo is new, I don't have a lot of prior material to work with in order to find the disconnect, however it seems a good portion of his early posts were in Jeff's guides. Take that as you will.





> I never had to learn anything originally about DILD, as I was (unknowingly) doing it naturally, albeit infrequently before I even read about such things.



And there are people who WILD without prior knowledge. What is your point?





> With DILD, all you have to do is practice some form of WBTB after 5 or more hours sleep, know a couple of RC checks, have good recall and be a bit motivated. The 'so called' hard part is by gaining AWARENESS that you are dreaming, which is in my view the fundamental tenent of most (if not all) LD techniques out there.



This shows me where your knowledge is at regarding realization from dreaming, which is to say, somewhat low and restricted mostly to rhetoric. How often do you dream lucidly? For now, in good faith, I'm assuming a conservative estimate of 20 a month, which is a common average for decently knowledgeable folk. 





> In my experience WILD takes a great deal of effort, dedication and time to get to know your own body and mind, even if you have experience of LD, via the other techniques.



Yes, or it could go faster, again it just takes a different set of knowledge to master. My guides (which I feel are fairly good at teaching the basics) have netted some people a WILD on their first try. Others had to try a bit longer, but the success rate of knowledge over technique tend to be higher than technique alone. Of course, with bad information, people will struggle with WILD. 

And even with good information, they may still struggle. This is equally true of those who practice realization from a dreaming state (DILD). I know several people who've got their theory down-pat, yet can't seem to get lucid even after years of effort. It's all very personal, so to say one (transition or realization) is strictly harder than the other is fundamentally ridiculous.

While there is some crossover in theory, all the important, underlying stuff is quite different. Unfortunately, people don't always understand that. Nor do they understand how foobar-ed teaching WILD is right now. 

Tell me, how important do you think sleep paralysis is when WILDing, and do we consciously experience sleep paralysis every time we WILD?

You might be surprised that the correct answers aren't as obvious to some as they should be.

----------


## Sageous

> WILD isn't any harder than DILD.



I never said it was.  Were you speaking to someone else?





> The knowledge-set required is simply different, as is the training required to see success. The reason so many people perceive an elevated difficulty is that they learn a ton about DILD and almost nothing substantial about WILD. It's one of the many flaws in the current teaching system, and there isn't much a single person can do about it.



Agreed.  But you left out another reason WILD is perceived as harder than DILD.  But first let me preach for a second:

I had a nice long post in place telling you how you were wrong, and that WILD is harder, but then, about halfway through it I said, out loud, "God dammit, he's right again!"  I hate that.  

Why are you right? Not because of the quality of the techniques, different knowledge sets, or the teaching system (not entirely, anyway), but because ultimately _all_ the techniques are the same, and _all_ the techniques are secondary to lucidity.  Period.  

As Robstar implied above, LD'ing is ultimately not about the techniques at all, but about self-awareness (it didn't help his argument much, but I'll leave that to him). As you well know I'll be the first to say that LD'ing is _all about the fundamentals_ -- self-awareness, memory, and expectation -- and if those are maturely in place then any technique will work just fine; choosing which to use is more a matter of timing an interest than difficulty. 

Okay, preachy bit over.  The reason I said it, though was to remind you that the level of "fundamentals" strength necessary for consistent high-end LD'ing is fairly high, and rarely reached even by LD'ing veterans.  So even we tend to fall back on the techniques, using them to facilitate our awareness, sometimes in a very lazy manner.  And those are the experts ... what about the "newbies" who just want to lucid dream?  

I think the real difference between DILD and WILD are the people who choose them as shortcuts to LD adventures.  The "DILD" folks seem to be people who start out with a real respect for self-awareness, and for the difficulty inherent in carrying it into a dream.  So they prepare first:  they learn to RC, to look for the odd, maybe practice ADA (not a big fan of that, BTW) and really train their memory because they _know_ that becoming lucid is not easy.  Well those people are probably very rare visitors to DV, or show up long after 
they've mastered their craft.  Not much need to teach them DILD!  Then there are the WILD bunch:

The other group of newbies are folks who heard about LD'ing, think it's cool, and want to do it NOW. So they browse the tutorials, and see that DILD is cluttered with waking-life activities, reliance on awareness, and seems require much work.  Then they check out WILD, and find that with WILD all you have to do is lie down, hold still, wait, and Bam!, you're in!  If you knew nothing about dreaming, Mzzkc, which would you initially choose?  

So the problem I think isn't with the teaching system, it's with the nature of the students themselves.  They want their LD's _now,_ fundamentals be damned, and WILD seems on paper to be just the right technique.  And, of course, succeeding at it turns out to be incredibly hard, if not impossible, because they're not interested in the mental prep.  Later, when they finally give up, or their drive and expectation finally deliver them an accidental DILD (more likely a false lucid, but I won't got there today), they "discover" this technique and find it much "easier," because at least with DILD you can bumble into a LD sometimes, and without the wait or much ballyhooed noise that accompanies WILD, no less.

*tl;dr:* So yeah, you're going to be hard-pressed to find people here who think WILD is no harder than DILD, but it won't be for the right reasons.  Bottom line, DILD, WILD, and MILD are ultimately the same thing, and each is just as hard as the other.  Master the fundamentals, and they all work exactly as well as each other and are selected from convenience, not need.  

I hope some of this made sense.

If not, then oh well.

----------


## Mzzkc

> I never said it was.  Were you speaking to someone else?



Just a general statement for clarity's sake, as someone might have caught that implication.






> Agreed.  But you left out another reason WILD is perceived as harder than DILD.  But first let me preach for a second:
> 
> I had a nice long post in place telling you how you were wrong, and that WILD is harder, but then, about halfway through it I said, out loud, "God dammit, he's right again!"  I hate that.



Lol. Yay?





> Why are you right? Not because of the quality of the techniques, different knowledge sets, or the teaching system (not entirely, anyway), but because ultimately _all_ the techniques are the same, and _all_ the techniques are secondary to lucidity.  Period.



Mostly agreed. In my experienced opinion, techniques are mostly worthless, if they aren't personally developed. However, approaches to lucidity based on core fundamentals are much more valuable not only as learning tools, but practical ones as well. To get an idea of where I'm coming from, and a proposed solution to the current teaching plight, read over this rather unconventional introductory guide I wrote.





> As Robstar implied above, LD'ing is ultimately not about the techniques at all, but about self-awareness (it didn't help his argument much, but I'll leave that to him). As you well know I'll be the first to say that LD'ing is _all about the fundamentals_ -- self-awareness, memory, and expectation -- and if those are maturely in place then any technique will work just fine; choosing which to use is more a matter of timing an interest than difficulty.



Completely agreed. However, as you well know, nailing down the fundamentals is only one piece of the puzzle. All the fundamentals in the world won't help you if you don't understand how transitioning works.





> Okay, preachy bit over.  The reason I said it, though was to remind you that the level of "fundamentals" strength necessary for consistent high-end LD'ing is fairly high, and rarely reached even by LD'ing veterans.  So even we tend to fall back on the techniques, using them to facilitate our awareness, sometimes in a very lazy manner.  And those are the experts ... what about the "newbies" who just want to lucid dream?



Throw some B6 pills at them and hope for the best?

Or, let them know straight-up LDing takes work.





> I think the real difference between DILD and WILD are the people who choose them as shortcuts to LD adventures.  The "DILD" folks seem to be people who start out with a real respect for self-awareness, and for the difficulty inherent in carrying it into a dream.  So they prepare first:  they learn to RC, to look for the odd, maybe practice ADA (not a big fan of that, BTW) and really train their memory because they _know_ that becoming lucid is not easy.  Well those people are probably very rare visitors to DV, or show up long after 
> they've mastered their craft.  Not much need to teach them DILD!  Then there are the WILD bunch:
> 
> The other group of newbies are folks who heard about LD'ing, think it's cool, and want to do it NOW. So they browse the tutorials, and see that DILD is cluttered with waking-life activities, reliance on awareness, and seems require much work.  Then they check out WILD, and find that with WILD all you have to do is lie down, hold still, wait, and Bam!, you're in!  If you knew nothing about dreaming, Mzzkc, which would you initially choose?



I chose WILD. Seemed to work out just fine once I figured out how wrong the popular guides were and how WILD actually worked. If I had the right knowledge from the very beginning, I think I might have gotten there even faster.





> So the problem I think isn't with the teaching system, it's with the nature of the students themselves.  They want their LD's _now,_ fundamentals be damned, and WILD seems on paper to be just the right technique.  And, of course, succeeding at it turns out to be incredibly hard, if not impossible, because they're not interested in the mental prep.  Later, when they finally give up, or their drive and expectation finally deliver them an accidental DILD (more likely a false lucid, but I won't got there today), they "discover" this technique and find it much "easier," because at least with DILD you can bumble into a LD sometimes, and without the wait or much ballyhooed noise that accompanies WILD, no less.



Agree to disagree here? Right now, not much is being done to teach the fundamentals; we're still stuck trying to sort out misconceptions in the basic approaches. No matter how you look at it, there's a problem with the current system. Too much focus on the "how" not enough on the "why." People are encouraged to "do" instead of to "think." And while doing is necessary at some point, no one in the right mind would have a pre-med student perform surgery.





> *tl;dr:* So yeah, you're going to be hard-pressed to find people here who think WILD is no harder than DILD, but it won't be for the right reasons.  Bottom line, DILD, WILD, and MILD are ultimately the same thing, and each is just as hard as the other.  Master the fundamentals, and they all work exactly as well as each other and are selected from convenience, not need.



The end goal and basic fundamentals are the same; the approaches themselves and the knowledge surrounding them vary.

----------


## Highlander

> This shows me where your knowledge is at regarding realization from dreaming, which is to say, somewhat low and restricted mostly to rhetoric. How often do you dream lucidly? For now, in good faith, I'm assuming a conservative estimate of 20 a month, which is a common average for decently knowledgeable folk.



Firstly, never assume.

Yes maybe I was being simplistic in my paragraph and over generalized regarding DILD. However I can only go on _my_ experience on what I have seen and tried. I _genuinely_ found the DILD method a lot easier when compared to the WILD technique. You, yourself even use the word 'uninitiated' like there sort of is more than meets the eye when learning to WILD.

So basically, I'm sorry you don't agree with my earlier post. I'm here to learn and debate - not argue, as life is too short.
I can only go on my experiences. I respect your guide and the time you have taken to put it together. Maybe it will help me, or perhaps I'm one who needs the B6 pill thrown in?





> Tell me, how important do you think sleep paralysis is when WILDing, and do we consciously experience sleep paralysis every time we WILD?
> 
> You might be surprised that the correct answers aren't as obvious to some as they should be.



You could have given me a multiple choice, although I already know. Thanks  :smiley:

----------


## Sageous

> Completely agreed. However, as you well know, nailing down the fundamentals is only one piece of the puzzle. All the fundamentals in the world won't help you if you don't understand how transitioning works.



I may _not_ well know this...

I believe, and have occasionally found, that mastery of the fundamentals _already includes_ understanding how transitioning works.  If you are self-aware, the transitioning in WILD is no less mysterious or complicated than walking through a door.  If you know that you will be dreaming shortly, and you also know that you will be getting there with your self-awareness and waking memory intact, then minding the transition from wake to sleep is almost a meaningless exercise, because the transition is just another step ... you have already built an understanding of transitioning into your understanding of your place in your world, your influence on it, and its on you (aka: self-awareness); there was no option.  Though additional understanding of transitioning in terms of perfecting a WILD technique is nice, it is not necessary, I think.  

The fundamentals really are _that_ powerful -- and inclusive.  And, to turn your statement around, you can understand everything about transitioning, but if you lack the fundamentals, all that knowledge won't help one wit.  It's one thing to know the rules for baseball; it's another thing to hit a major-league pitch. 

And yes, if you possess _all_ the fundamentals in the world, LD'ing would be a snap, because you would be a god, consciously speaking.

Also, for what it's worth, I was LD'ing for years before I knew these techniques existed, never paid transitioning much conscious thought, and yet still had thousands of LD's.  How can that be?  And don't tell me I'm a "natural," because a) I don't think consistent naturals exist (we've all had one or two accidental LD's, of course) in healthy people, and b) I worked very hard on this stuff from day one.


Also, I'm not sure about your interest in the DVA stuff, but you might glance at my recent "class" on WILD.  I think it more clearly states what I'm trying to say here, and if you read carefully, you'll notice that it may be the only anti-technique tutorial out there.  Why? Because techniques don't matter!  






> Right now, not much is being done to teach the fundamentals; we're still stuck trying to sort out misconceptions in the basic approaches. No matter how you look at it, there's a problem with the current system. Too much focus on the "how" not enough on the "why." People are encouraged to "do" instead of to "think." And while doing is necessary at some point, no one in the right mind would have a pre-med student perform surgery.



I can't argue with any of that!  Especially because it echoes the complaint I've been repeating since I ventured into this site.





> The end goal and basic fundamentals are the same; the approaches themselves and the knowledge surrounding them vary.



Yup.  No question.  Uh huh. Sure.   Except:  The approaches and the knowledge cannot _eclipse_ the fundamentals, or the experience of LD'ing will either be diminished or missed altogether.

_... I just remembered in what thread I'm posting this.  I hope I'm not overreaching.  If I am, let me know and I'll quickly delete this post._

----------


## Mzzkc

> Firstly, never assume.



Right you are.





> Yes maybe I was being simplistic in my paragraph and over generalized regarding DILD. However I can only go on _my_ experience on what I have seen and tried. I _genuinely_ found the DILD method a lot easier when compared to the WILD technique. You, yourself even use the word 'uninitiated' like there sort of is more than meets the eye when learning to WILD.



For you then, realization was easier than transitioning. But a single experience is not enough to ascertain universal truth; that's all I'm saying.





> So basically, I'm sorry you don't agree with my earlier post. I'm here to learn and debate - not argue, as life is too short.



Indeed it is...

Sorry for the subtle antagonizing. There must've been something up my bum that day. 






> I may _not_ well know this...
> *clip*



Poor turn of phrase on my part.

To reuse your sports analogy: A player with natural, refined talent who doesn't know the rules of the game is much more likely to make costly errors. Sure they _might_ pull out a win in the end, but is it really worth the risk when they could just hit the books for an hour or two?

Unless you're suggesting that the fundamentals can overwrite biological certainty (sleep cycles and what have you). Some knowledge remains necessary to avoid laying in bed for nearly 90 minutes right as bedtime rolls around.

Otherwise, I agree completely; the fundamentals supersede all techniques.

----------


## Sageous

Mzzkc:





> To reuse your sports analogy: A player with natural, refined talent who doesn't know the rules of the game is much more likely to make costly errors. Sure they might pull out a win in the end, but is it really worth the risk when they could just hit the books for an hour or two?



Yes.  And hitting those books, for far more than an hour or two, is just as critical.  I'm talking about developing and adhering to fundamentals here, and not natural talent; that to me requires an enormous amount of work. 

So yes again, _refined_ talent based soundly on fundamentals and much hitting of the books will trump blind adherence to technique every time, no matter how clever that technique might be.  If your head's not properly in the game, you'll never pull out a win, period.  

(BTW, I personally think natural talent is extremely overrated, based on chronic exaggeration, self-delusion, vague memories of childhood dreams that sure seemed lucid, or misinterpretation.  Except in cases of poor mental health, natural talent likely does not exist.  It also has nothing, nothing, nothing to do with developing the fundamentals). 





> Unless you're suggesting that the fundamentals can overwrite biological certainty (sleep cycles and what have you). Some knowledge remains necessary to avoid laying in bed for nearly 90 minutes right as bedtime rolls around.



They can and do overwrite biological certainty.  Think about it:  doing WILD itself literally and intentionally overwrites biological circuitry, in probably a more profound way than conjuring dreams before that 90 minute window elapses.  

Aside from that, and the fact that NREM dreaming, as you likely know, is not only a possibility but a very valid goal for advanced dreamers: Yes, I believe that WILD is definitely best done after WBTB, very late in the sleep cycles; My WILD class says this exactly. Again, good timing and technique have _nothing whatsoever_ to do with the fundamentals... I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, based on what I said.

----------


## Highlander

Mzzkc:





> Indeed it is...
> 
> Sorry for the subtle antagonizing. There must've been something up my bum that day.



No problem. To be fair, you are quite passionate regarding the subject of WILD which can only be a good thing. I did sort of clumsily jump on the thread where I was a little on the defensive side myself.

----------


## Mzzkc

> -clip-



It might be the concussion, but you know I was agreeing with you, yeah?

----------


## Sageous

^^ Nope, I didn't realize.

Other than your last line, you seemed to me to be taking exception or rhetorically reducing what I said.  At best your responses were negative in tone if not, apparently, content.  I guess you were just looking to extend the conversation?

Sorry for the misunderstanding... you might reread what you wrote, though, and tell yourself once more that you were not disagreeing.  

 ::cheers::

----------


## Zyangur

I believe the falling asleep and the anchor part is what I'm missing. Right now, I'm sort of doing the "Stay still and wait" thing. Tonight, and after the 6th, I'm going to be focusing on finding the right time for myself to WBTB/WILD, and so I'll also experiment with finding an anchor. I'm thinking the environmental anchor will be a better option for me. I've already played around with the mental anchor, but not knowing how to actually use it as an anchor.

----------


## LunaIce

Hi, I just wanted to say what a relief it is to find out that I don't have to stay on my back, and still...I've been trying to WILD that way for a month now, and not only has it sharpened my back problems, it's uncomfortable and distracting....ugh. I'll try this tonight, I already have anchors: Count to ten repetitively, a number each time I exhale, and a small black pebble that I'm actually hoping I'll be able to bring into my dreams with me as a sort of dreamsign (that's why I started holding it as I slept in the first place) I really hope this works, now that those few, crucial misconceptions have been righted in my mind.....thanks again! 

£ύήά

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## plmnko098

I've had some trouble with WILDs. I am hopeful that your guide here will help me finally succeed with WILDs.

----------


## Mzzkc

> Other than your last line, you seemed to me to be taking exception or rhetorically reducing what I said.  At best your responses were negative in tone if not, apparently, content.  I guess you were just looking to extend the conversation?
> 
> Sorry for the misunderstanding... you might reread what you wrote, though, and tell yourself once more that you were not disagreeing.



Nope; wasn't disagreeing.

Was probably just looking for closure since I had recently come a literal inch from death roundabouts when I posted that, and things were still up in the air.

----------


## Sageous

Damn, Mzzkc, you may have broken the record for delayed response time!

I'm far too lazy to go back and take a look at our exchange, which I'd long forgotten, so I'll take your word for it.

Also, given the reason for the apparent confusion -- a concurrent brush with death -- I guess I have no argument!  I sincerely hope all is well now, or at least well enough...

----------


## Mzzkc

Everything is great. =)

Still get headaches from time to time...and I still don't fully trust the skin on my head to stay attached when I wash my hair...but I'm hoping that my concussion induced super-powers will reveal themselves soon enough!

----------


## Silverlight

> The Right Mindset: Put plainly, *you shouldn't be waiting for SP*, looking for HI, or anything similar. You're trying to fall asleep here, not track your progress through a series of events.



Haha, I was doing the exact opposite. I was waiting for SP, looking for HI etc. I didn't know that was wrong, and I'm shocked that I've read so many *WILD* guides, and none of them ever came close to discussing this point. In fact many of them encouraged the idea, by saying for instance, "If your body starts feeling numb or you see imagery or hear sounds, than you're close to lucid dreaming" etc. Thank you so much for enlightening me!

----------


## TheModernNinja

What anchor do you use? I personally have experimented with pain anchors, but only got lucid once out of the 100+ times. Interested to see what you use.

----------


## Mzzkc

Willpower is my anchor, more often than not.

Sometimes an environmental anchor makes itself convenient, but I never count on that. Then again, I'm not the best example to follow; I'm lazy as hell and always take the path of least resistance--not a good combination for those still getting the hang of things.

----------


## melanieb

> in an environment with minimal distractions such as light and the occasional sudden noise?




As a parent who is often tired in the mornings after kids go to school I have personally found that the distractions help me retain awareness as I fall asleep. I know I don't speak for everyone on that, but in my case the light and sounds of sleeping in my poorly insulated house after the kids go to school lend themselves to my successful WILDs.

I really do like your guide.

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## Mzzkc

Any distraction that doesn't keep you from sleeping can be an excellent anchor, and I imagine your tolerance level for silly things--like light and the occasional creak--goes through the roof after you've dealt with kids for X number of years. XP

----------


## melanieb

> Any distraction that doesn't keep you from sleeping can be an excellent anchor, and I imagine your tolerance level for silly things--like light and the occasional creak--goes through the roof after you've dealt with kids for X number of years. XP




It's very true, though I think growing up without air conditioning also helped with that. I had to be patient with all kinds of discomforts and learn to embrace the Texas heat/light.

Kids...I was always fairly aware of my surroundings but I do believe they only heighten the awareness that was already strong with me. I've always been a light-sleeper so it's not uncommon for me to have many tiny awakenings on any given night. I believe this has only helped my lucid dream frequency.

----------


## StephL

> Hey, thanks for this guide, it really helped me out by clearing up misconceptions that I had.  I just had two lucids last night, one using *pain as an anchor* (hand under body) and the other using my sleeping mask.  This was my first (and second!) WILD experience, so thanks!



Hmmm.


Very refreshing to read this guide - thank you Mzzkc!!
Just doesn't work with mantras and SSILD and visualisations for me - one time vibrations and optics, one time vibrations and both times it waned and I was awake. The main problem always was falling asleep - and I feel this anchor concept is just what I need - and also just what I got. Namely I have a nasty allergy at the moment, on my hands and feet - it itches and hurts a bit, and I can't really ignore it, when lying still in bed, but I was anyway able to fall asleep with it.
Now I am quite hopeful in trying this approach in WBTB and take the rash as environmental anchor - fall asleep while holding it in passive awareness.

I will report back of course!

 ::yddd::

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## MisakaMikoto

This guide is truly the best
With it and anchor of counting from 0 to 2
I had 5 lucid dreams this week 

Some failed WILDs resulted in DILDs aswell  :smiley: 

I"ve got one question thought
What way would be most successful for counting anchor
~ Counting by thinking (saying them in mind)
~ Visualizing Numbers
~ Both?

- Thanks

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## cmind

> This guide is truly the best
> With it and anchor of counting from 0 to 2
> I had 5 lucid dreams this week 
> 
> Some failed WILDs resulted in DILDs aswell 
> 
> I"ve got one question thought
> What way would be most successful for counting anchor
> *~ Counting by thinking (saying them in mind)*
> ...



Don't do this. Engaging your inner voice prevents sleep.

----------


## MisakaMikoto

> Don't do this. Engaging your inner voice prevents sleep.



After a bit of thinking i've understood maybe what you meant  :Cheeky: 

From what i've expirenced when trying WILD thoughts are starting to flow randomly
And those thoughts are part of falling asleep process and transmissioning into Dream

So if i would setup autonomous counting anchor it would probably work
But it also would make harder falling asleep
Which woud result in slight chance to fall unconsciouss during my 
Because even auxiliary autonomous counting by thoughts could interrupt this process

It might be quite critical point, since during some of my WILDs. HI, vibrations etc. appeared after i've stopped using counting by thoughts anchor
So if i would use correctly setup visualization numbers counting as anchor, it would work fine & wouldn't interrupt my wild attempt?


Have i understood correctly your post?

----------


## Daniel102697

Great guide, keep up the good work OP.

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## Mzzkc

> After a bit of thinking i've understood maybe what you meant 
> 
> From what i've expirenced when trying WILD thoughts are starting to flow randomly
> And those thoughts are part of falling asleep process and transmissioning into Dream
> 
> So if i would setup autonomous counting anchor it would probably work
> But it also would make harder falling asleep
> Which woud result in slight chance to fall unconsciouss during my 
> Because even auxiliary autonomous counting by thoughts could interrupt this process
> ...



Seems pretty spot on to me. =)

----------


## 2Jupes

I don't know if it's appropriate to reanimate threads that have been down for four months, but this is the most helpful discussion about WILD I have read.  After realizing the standard WILD guides were pretty misleading, I still only had a vague notion about my anchor having to be as passive as possible, while still maintaining awareness.  I did not realize exactly how passive the anchor could be, for instance, that it could be described as something that was "autonomous."    

For me, this is all still just a matter of theory that hasn't been borne out in practice, but I've got a much clearer idea of potentially helpful anchors.  I was just counting down audibly in my head last night during a three-hour frustrating period of wakefullness after taking galantamine and alpha gpc choline.  There were some independent execution problems there, but even if I'd done things correctly, I was way too engaged with my anchor.  I'll switch to the idea of a visualized timer counting down automatically from 100, or some sort of loose physical awareness of my sleep mask.  I am sure I'll probably pass out unaware as I have countless times, but it's a good place to start.   

This all seems to necessarily be a matter of trial and error, dependent on how consciousness works for each individual, with what appears to involve a pretty wide range of effective anchor approaches, depending on the person.

----------


## DynoTAP

Wowwie!  ::holyshit::

----------


## cmind

> I was just counting down audibly in my head last night during a three-hour frustrating period of wakefullness



I bet it was...Hearing your voice in your head prevents sleep. It actually engages your vocal chords and you cannot fall asleep while doing it, no matter how long you wait (unless you're on some heavy sedatives, but then you won't be able to lucid dream anyway).

----------


## Ctharlhie

Yeah, switch to a non-verbal anchor. Counting/mantras don't work for everyone and I didn't start getting success until I stopped vocalising in my WILD attemtps.

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## DylanBizarro

I tried WILD once more before calling it quits and waking up for the day. I lay down on the bed and counted 1 as I inhaled, and 2 as I exhaled, and then did that for the rest of the time while doing the mantra, I will have a lucid dream. Then, it felt like my head was going back and forth, and then it stopped after 2 seconds, and then my entire body became num. I stopped waiting after 10 minutes because I was just too awake after that. Was the head going back and forth the vibrations that everyone is talking about, or just some kind of hypnic jerk? And what was my body going num for, and why did nothing happen after that?

----------


## cmind

> I tried WILD once more before calling it quits and waking up for the day. I lay down on the bed and counted 1 as I inhaled, and 2 as I exhaled, and then did that for the rest of the time while doing the mantra, I will have a lucid dream. Then, it felt like my head was going back and forth, and then it stopped after 2 seconds, and then my entire body became num. I stopped waiting after 10 minutes because I was just too awake after that. Was the head going back and forth the vibrations that everyone is talking about, or just some kind of hypnic jerk? And what was my body going num for, and why did nothing happen after that?



Nothing that you described sounds anything close to hypnagogia or WILD, sorry. At what point during this mantra fest did you expect to magically fall asleep?

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## DylanBizarro

> Nothing that you described sounds anything close to hypnagogia or WILD, sorry. At what point during this mantra fest did you expect to magically fall asleep?



Darn it.  :Sad:  Sorry for the late reply, I have been sick. Well basically, I was laying down while counting and I occasionally said the mantra. I expected to eventually fall asleep maybe in about 30 minutes. I tried again and this time I got this sense that I was flying and then lost all feeling to my body except sound.

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## FryingMan

> Yeah, switch to a non-verbal anchor. Counting/mantras don't work for everyone and I didn't start getting success until I stopped vocalising in my WILD attemtps.



Oooooo tell me more.I never considered "mental vocalization" as a problem.  What does work for you?

I've tried mantrasno success.  I've tried rhythmic motion visualization (swinging, walking)no success.   I've tried desired dream scene visualization: no success.   Basically: no success!   I think I've never had a non-accidental WILD and it's really frustrating!

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## ThreeCat

> Then, it felt like my head was going back and forth, and then it stopped after 2 seconds, and then my entire body became num. I stopped waiting after 10 minutes because I was just too awake after that.



Sounds like your body was falling asleep but maybe you either became excited about this or something else brought you back to wakefulness.  The moving head does sound like a hypnagogic hallucination (unless you were really moving your head for some reason).

Based on your second reply (flying, losing all feeling but sound) seems you are super close and that the mantra is working.  I would stick with it  :smiley:

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## Ctharlhie

> Oooooo tell me more….I never considered "mental vocalization" as a problem.  What does work for you?
> 
> I've tried mantras…no success.  I've tried rhythmic motion visualization (swinging, walking)…no success.   I've tried desired dream scene visualization: no success.   Basically: no success!   I think I've never had a non-accidental WILD and it's really frustrating!



Body scan until I'm completely relaxed and starting to get hypnagogia, then switch to dot or lotus visualisation  :smiley:  

Lotus in particular is very psychedelic as the hypnagogia starts interacting/incorporating it into HH/dreamlets. 

The main difficulty is not falling asleep during the body scan, but you want to keep doing it until at least the first 'sleep sign', from my observations these include:

Non-sequitor thought patterns
Jolting back to attention after the mind has wandered
Hypnic jerks
Hypnagogic visuals
The wave of warmth/numbness/tingling (NOT SP)

After the occurrence of any of the above I switch to my kasina (visualisation), although transition also occurs during the body scan stage.

Verbalisation kills my WILDs and even keeps me awake doing MILD.

tldr; anchor is the 'key' to WILD but still needs to be adapted to the individual. Also, there's no getting around the need to gain experience of your own falling-asleep process.

Honestly I think any technique that follows the outline of Gab's brilliant official guide (bodily relaxation -> mental relaxation -> focus on anchor until transition) can be successful. The part most leave out is the relaxation and therefore can't fall asleep. I think WILD should take 30 minutes max.

@Dylan; You could make like Misaka and _visualise_ the numbers rather than verbally counting.

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## FryingMan

Thanks!    I had not considered that "verbal" anchors could be killing my WILDs by preventing getting close enough to sleep.    And  I *keep forgetting* the lotus visualization...must continue it.

Yeah I'm getting *very* familiar with my falling asleep patterns.   I experience all the ones you list.

What's 100% reliable as I enter the first stages of falling asleep is an involuntary/jerky/fast/long inhale.   I'm usually still quite alert at this stage but I know this means I'm progressing.   I experience this usually several times per night if I notice wakings.

My very common late stage (most of the time I'm unconscious before this occurs and so don't notice it) sign is all-body buzzing/vibrations.   Sometimes I'll get "wave on the ocean" or rocking sensations, and very rarely I'll get "floating arms" (only a few times).   If I'm on my back (rare) I've gotten lead-blanket jerky/hard breathing but also only a few times.

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## Ctharlhie

You're basically there! Just switch to lotus visualisation and maintain state once you reach that lead blanket stage.

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## FryingMan

> You're basically there! Just switch to lotus visualisation and maintain state once you reach that lead blanket stage.



I don't very often reach that stage unfortunately.   But I need to put more effort on WILD attempts.   Tried last night after WBTB with 300mg Alpha-GPC at 5 hrs but couldn't fall asleep: wife also with insomnia was just too noisy and making too many movements.   I was on the edge of sleep but jerked back about 4 times.   So I gave up and got up after 3 hrs of trying.  I did sleep again after breakfast for about an hour or so and had vivid but short and strange dreams, which were at least not boring.   Very "dream-like" in fact.   Lots of close-up examinations of strange objects.

I tried the lotus visualization and encountered a strange difficulty.   I somehow find it hard to visualize the lotus in my throat.  I find my physical eyes keep trying to "look down" into my throat, and of course I can't see down that far and so I "can't see" the lotus there.   It's a bizarre sort of issue.    I suppose I should spend a bit more time visualizing it "in front of my eyes" before trying to "move it" to my throat.

I tried visualizing my body from the outside, seeing the lotus there in my throat, I'm not sure thought that's the right way to do it.   Any suggestions?

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## cmind

I've started to find that a more effective way of thinking about WILD (*for me*), is to actually drop the notion of an anchor altogether and actually allow myself to lose consciousness completely. What tends to happen is that the effort to WILD before losing consciousness actually makes it quite likely that I will become lucid in the following dream, even if that lucidity is *technically* now a DILD.

So it goes:

1. Do usual WILD attempt up until the point where I'm starting to black out
2. Lose consciousness completely
3. ????
4. Guaranteed "DILD" when dream starts

It's a very odd thing, because it's technically a DILD, but it relies heavily on the application of WILD technique (and requires absolutely NO reality checking at all). Another interesting thing is that this method takes on some of the characteristic tendencies of strictly DILD lucids, namely: they're usually not 100% lucid, I tend to choose to follow a free flowing plot, even though I'm lucid, and being less than 100% lucid means they're more stable. This goes back to the inverse relationship between lucidity and stability that any experienced dreamer knows all too well.

EDIT: I realize this is not a new idea.

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## ThreeCat

^^it's still good to point out; I find I can do this much more easily late morning (after 7 hrs sleep).  Before that, not likely.  But if you can't lucidly cross the barrier, "giving up" is sometimes a great option.

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## Sageous

^^ Especially if giving up results in a DILD. 

 I have a feeling that many of our WILD's go this brief loss of consciousness route; not a bad thing at all, BTW.

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## cmind

> ^^it's still good to point out; I find I can do this much more easily late morning (after 7 hrs sleep).  Before that, not likely.  But if you can't lucidly cross the barrier, "giving up" is sometimes a great option.



Same here. Also, WBTB is something that continues to astonish me in how effective it is.

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## ThreeCat

I've also found that melatonin (3+ mg) helps me WILD/DEILD--I think it has to do with the shortened NREM period due to REM rebound.  Something to try, at any rate.

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## Mzzkc

Gais, you know this thread is like 4 years old, yeah?

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## Sageous

^^ Your point?

Has the information changed?  Are you no longer monitoring? Are people no longer interested in WILD?

I personally think that some threads deserve to be kept alive; this is one of them.

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## FryingMan

^^ Exactly.  The OP is active, so should not be a problem.

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## cmind

> Gais, you know this thread is like 4 years old, yeah?



This thread is one of the good ones. If this one isn't kept active, then the garbage put out there by Jeff777 and his ilk, will be the ones that people gravitate towards.

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## Mzzkc

I was being purposefully pedantic for comedic effect, _gosh_.

Next time I'll remember the "/s".

Edit: sometimes I worry we all forget to have a little fun now and again.

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## Sageous

^^ You're welcome.

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## Ctharlhie

> Gais, you know this thread is like 4 years old, yeah?



An oldie but a goodie

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## Ctharlhie

> I don't very often reach that stage unfortunately.   But I need to put more effort on WILD attempts.   Tried last night after WBTB with 300mg Alpha-GPC at 5 hrs but couldn't fall asleep: wife also with insomnia was just too noisy and making too many movements.   I was on the edge of sleep but jerked back about 4 times.   So I gave up and got up after 3 hrs of trying.  I did sleep again after breakfast for about an hour or so and had vivid but short and strange dreams, which were at least not boring.   Very "dream-like" in fact.   Lots of close-up examinations of strange objects.
> 
> I tried the lotus visualization and encountered a strange difficulty.   I somehow find it hard to visualize the lotus in my throat.  I find my physical eyes keep trying to "look down" into my throat, and of course I can't see down that far and so I "can't see" the lotus there.   It's a bizarre sort of issue.    I suppose I should spend a bit more time visualizing it "in front of my eyes" before trying to "move it" to my throat.
> 
> I tried visualizing my body from the outside, seeing the lotus there in my throat, I'm not sure thought that's the right way to do it.   Any suggestions?



If you're struggling with lotus visualisation, try just a red dot or "A" first: take your finger and push firmly but lightly into the slight hollow where your throat meets your collar bone. Where you feel that pressure, imagine a red lotus flower. Repeat without the help of touch.

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## dragster69

Holy.Fucking.Shit. You sir, are a fucking genius. After reading this thread (as well as the other two included) a lightbulb finally went off. Despite what people have said, I have been trying to WILD with no prior sleep whatsoever, with me of course thinking "oh yeah, I don't mind. I can try to wait out that 30-60-90 minutes. Big fucking deal right?" WRONG. I finally realized that this will NEVER work. I have honestly no fucking clue why this never clicked in my head. Thank you, I am going to try this tonight.

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## cmind

> I have honestly no fucking clue why this never clicked in my head.



Maybe it's because there are lots of pedants on sites like these who will never, ever admit that there are correct ways of doing things. /rant

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## FryingMan

> Maybe it's because there are lots of pedants on sites like these who will never, ever admit that there are correct ways of doing things. /rant



!!?? Can you point out where anybody on DV recommends (especially to newbies) to do WILD attempts on no prior sleep!?

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## cmind

> !!?? Can you point out where anybody on DV recommends (especially to newbies) to do WILD attempts on no prior sleep!?



No, they're too cowardly to do that. Instead, they shout down anyone who says that WILDing with no prior sleep is a bad idea and should not be attempted by beginners because it's hard enough already.

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## FryingMan

I don't see any examples of this.   It is certainly not widespread.   Can you provide quotes?    You're making it out to be an endemic and I have never, not once that I recall, seen people being shouted down for recommending not doing WILDs on no prior sleep.

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## Mzzkc

It's not been a thing recently, but search "wild prior sleep" and go through some of those threads if you'd like examples of what cmind is talking about.

Kay. Back into the shadows nao...

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## cmind

> I don't see any examples of this.   It is certainly not widespread.   Can you provide quotes?    You're making it out to be an endemic and I have never, not once that I recall, seen people being shouted down for recommending not doing WILDs on no prior sleep.



I've personally been on the receiving end of this...

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## FryingMan

OK, well, there certainly are people with all sort of points of view.  But if you take something like Sageous's WILD class, and this tread, you'll get good solid advice.   The majority of all WILD advice on DV includes prior sleep, at least in my time here on DV (2+ years) so I was surprised to see this claim.

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## cmind

> The majority of all WILD advice on DV includes prior sleep, at least in my time here on DV (2+ years) so I was surprised to see this claim.



Again, this isn't actually what I'm referring to. It's more the idea that there is a "right" and "wrong" way to learn. Some people here, even if they suggest WILDing with prior sleep, will still shout down anyone who says that a beginner should _not_ try to WILD without prior sleep. It's this fascination with keeping things as wishy-washy as possible, attacking anyone who has a solid opinion on something.

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## gab

> ... Some people here, even if they suggest WILDing with prior sleep, will still shout down anyone who says that a beginner should _not_ try to WILD without prior sleep. It's this fascination with keeping things as wishy-washy as possible, attacking anyone who has a solid opinion on something.



Those are some serious accusations. Link pls.

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