# Lucid Dreaming > DV Academy > Current Courses > DILD >  >  Patjunfa's workbook

## Patjunfa

Hi all

I've been into lucid dreaming off and on for many years. 1st got into it about 20 years ago (I'm 40 now). In the last few years I've taken it off the back burner and committed to developing this as a faculty in my life. For my thesis in my MSc in mindfulness studies I looked at how lucid dreaming may assist in mindfulness training. I've had a lot of very rich lucid experiences, but it's certainly been a longer and slower journey than I might have expected. I have a goal of being able to have reliable, frequent and stable lucids. Certainly not there yet. Sometimes I may have a few weeks without lucidity, some weeks I may have a few lucids. I'd guess I have about 50-60 lucids per year. 
My recall is generally quite good. When I'm on form I find myself waking after most sleep cycles with some recall and writing something. I'd like to get better at making v brief notes during the night. At the moment I don't tend to write until my last wake, which makes the night a bit more distant.
My most reliable induction method is do some amount of WBTB, then sleep in a different room and do a 61 point relaxation technique, allowing me to descend into sleep slowly then more often WILD, or perhaps DILD. I love the inbetween states that can occur on the journey to sleep this way. Trouble with it is both the effort and time to induce a lucid. Also I find if there is noise on the slow journey to sleep, I can be drawn back to senses and the waking world. I often can't find earplugs or don't feel like using them (but if I'm being determined I do). Another disadvantage is its harder to do with my partner beside me in bed. I'd like to be better at DILD to increase frequency of my lucidity and so general proficiency in the dream world, also so I can stay in my same bed. I still RC when anything strange happens but I don't do it with the frequency I used to, as I've kind of lost faith in my ability to DILD from these. I used to practice illusionary form in place of habitual reality checks which I loved doing

I came back onto dream views as thought I may find either a different technique to experiment with or somehow a different aproach to mix things up a bit. The structure of this workbook with feedback looks great to provide momentum, learning and something different. 

My goals at the moment are
Become proficient at lucid dreaming (reliable induction, perhaps 3 -4 stable lucids per week). Stability...most of my lucids are short enough.

Within a dream, goals include
Entering deep sleep consciously (perhaps by dissolving the dreamscape with this intention)
Moving awareness between various dream creations and moving past identification with the dream body and ego.
Attempt to enter my mates dream (permission given). 
Explore shadow (done this a couple of times within lucids)
Develop relationship with dream characters or a guide, (I've asked a number of times for one in a LD). Current Goal is to meet again with the  woman I met on the other side of a mirror in a recent lucid dream. 
I'd also like to play with General dream control. Teleportation summoning etc. I've only done each once I think. I called a friend into my dream (he will be behind this door). And semi teleported...created a portal on the wall and jumped through into a different world
Prime goal is just to become proficient at lucid dreaming so setting an active goal or activity would be good. Could be setting an alarm through the day and regular reality checks, working with dream signs (which I never felt good at), setting intent and 'next time I'm dreaming I will recognise I'm dreaming' mantra during the day or night...
Probably enough for an initial post. I'm not great at actually posting online, but perhaps this workbook will be part fuelling momentum and creating focus

All the best

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## fogelbise

> Hi all
> 
> I've been into lucid dreaming off and on for many years. 1st got into it about 20 years ago (I'm 40 now). In the last few years I've taken it off the back burner and committed to developing this as a faculty in my life. For my thesis in my MSc in mindfulness studies I looked at how lucid dreaming may assist in mindfulness training.



I've definitely seen the connection between lucid dreaming and mindfulness! Great to hear you did your thesis on the subject.  :smiley: 





> I've had a lot of very rich lucid experiences, but it's certainly been a longer and slower journey than I might have expected. I have a goal of being able to have reliable, frequent and stable lucids. Certainly not there yet. Sometimes I may have a few weeks without lucidity, some weeks I may have a few lucids. I'd guess I have about 50-60 lucids per year.



I bet we can learn something from each other. I am confident that I can nudge you in the right direction for your goal of more frequent and stable lucid dreams.





> My most reliable induction method is do some amount of WBTB, then sleep in a different room and do a 61 point relaxation technique, allowing me to descend into sleep slowly then more often WILD, or perhaps DILD. I love the inbetween states that can occur on the journey to sleep this way. Trouble with it is both the effort and time to induce a lucid.



How often do you WBTB? I think this will be your biggest boost to your frequency goal! Since you mention the time and effort you might want to continue doing these WILD dives but mix in some easier techniques on other nights that you can WBTB. If you can enjoy the time awake during WBTB, that is very helpful to your motivation to get up and stay up long enough to get your brain active enough. So find something you enjoy for your time up and out of bed, if you haven't yet, and you will be able to do a full WBTB more frequently. When going back to bed you can do some simple MILD visualization. Quick MILD description: http://www.dreamviews.com/lucid-expe...ml#post2160952. Also SSILD is great for DILD's when you finish the cycles and go to sleep (you can continue it longer into WILD but that is more effort). I find SSILD works best after 4.5 hours of sleep, with 6 hours being less effective. After 6 hours I prefer heavy MILD visualizations.





> Also I find if there is noise on the slow journey to sleep, I can be drawn back to senses and the waking world. I often can't find earplugs or don't feel like using them (but if I'm being determined I do). Another disadvantage is its harder to do with my partner beside me in bed. I'd like to be better at DILD to increase frequency of my lucidity and so general proficiency in the dream world, also so I can stay in my same bed.



I love earplugs and a silky sleep mask for blocking out noise and light from my wife. Keep them both bedside so you never have to look for them. By mixing in simpler DILD techniques along with the WBTB tips above you can achieve this DILD goal you mention here.





> I still RC when anything strange happens but I don't do it with the frequency I used to, as I've kind of lost faith in my ability to DILD from these. I used to practice illusionary form in place of habitual reality checks which I loved doing



No worries. Continue RC's as you are doing and maybe start increasing them by adding them to a "just got lucid ritual" daytime practice. This is where you visualize becoming lucid and what you will do next like RC, stabilize, recall your goals, and perhaps visualize starting to perform your goals or even completing them - whatever feels right for the goals in question.





> The structure of this workbook with feedback looks great to provide momentum, learning and something different.



I agree! Try to post here regularly.  :smiley:

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## Patjunfa

Cool, thanks a mill for feedback :smiley:  

Do you leave earplugs in for much of the night and sleep on side with earplug in? I find I only put them in for some of the night and sleep on my back. Maybe it's just about getting used to the sensation. Cool that your wife emanates light  :;-): 

I vary with WBTB. I have lots of micros...I notice a lot of the natural micros during the night and sometimes write dreams which takes a bit of time. I've gone through good spells of doing full WBTB a couple of times a week or so. I used to meet up with a mate who was on a WBTB also which was fun.as I think of it now, instead of doing the dishes late at night, I could do them on a WBTB. Means I could get to bed earlier and so it may work on a work night. Someone said before that in the morning it feels like the dishes were done by elves. I'd like to find more good things for a WBTB to do. I find my brain is fuzzy and meditation feels less satisfying, tho the journey to sleep can be meditative.
In terms of time, I sometimes find is I may be up for an hour, spend 30/40 mins going to sleep slowly, LD hopefully, wake, spend 20 mins writing LD.  Then another while getting to sleep again. All good and I often enjoy each stage of the journey,(often the inbetween states are as valuable or more so than the LD) but it's a time commitment which doesn't always fit with routine. If I could go to sleep quicker and aim for DILD it may be more conducive at times. I'll aim now to do at least one full WBTB per week

"Just got lucid" practice... I'd like to have more juice for this. It makes sense to me as a practice as will be be regularly building similar neural pathways. Yet during the day I find it hard to visualise...I rc-I'm awake...ok...as if...pupils dialate for a moment as I try and imagine, yet it feels hard to go far with it in the day to day affair and seconds later I'm somewhat out of momentum...maybe that's enough and just staying with it and becoming more familiar with it as a practice
I'll also read back up on SSILD. Seemed like a basic sensory awareness which you then let go of and it somehow carrys forward into a DILD...
MILd also I'll read back on. I always found the mantra or affirmation part of it fine. The visualising last dream and becoming lucid in I did less.

Thanks again for feedback.

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## Patjunfa

Had a lucid last night

I’m in front of a projector sreen, a friend was talking to me about being able to have sex, but also that some of her friends avoid that and manage to do other things (semi lucid, as if preparing for a lucid to happen through the projector screen). I fly, somewhat through the screen, alongside others. The woman I fly towards becomes a guy and I lose the impulse for sex. I look at my hand and there are 6 or more fingers. I fly over buildings, really just enjoying speed and manoeuvrability. I try to think of what my dream goals are but am blank. As I fly I turn my hands outwards sending loving energy to all in the dream, I then turn my hands back on myself as part of this. Delighted. I fly down towards the ground, as Im close, I think of going through the ground as its made of the same matter as the air (think a bit of my goal to enter deep sleep), I plunge down under the ground 5-10 ft under…dark brown, with bits of red, stay there for 5-10 sec’s then com up. Dc there who thought was a cool flight…

Had a sense of being a long flight, but hard to remember the journey. Overall not great awareness within the dream but definitely some nice moments. As I had MILD intention, I had plan to remember dreams, I was waking pretty much every 1 ½, and even jotting v brief notes, which was fine to begin with, then I’d had enough, so stoped writing even tho I was waking. As I was waking straight after the dream I thought of DEILD but the impulse to stretch took me. 

Good to start with a success. I want to increase my DILDS to increase overall time in lucidity and ease of access. It reminded me of my old impression that the clarity and sense of self remembrance is less than with WILDS. I couldn’t remember goals, which isn’t an issue with WILDS. I’ll keep practicing MILD and affirmations and see if I can get the hang of imagining lucid during the day

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## fogelbise

> Do you leave earplugs in for much of the night and sleep on side with earplug in? I find I only put them in for some of the night and sleep on my back. Maybe it's just about getting used to the sensation.



I usually don't use the earplugs and sleep mask until the last part of the night, where I focus my LD effortsafter about 4.5 hours of sleep. At first I needed to insert the earplug that was on my primary sleep side less than the other one, sometimes putting it in like the other one and then pulling it slightly out. After a while I seem to be used to it inserted the normal way on both ears.





> "Just got lucid" practice... I'd like to have more juice for this. It makes sense to me as a practice as will be be regularly building similar neural pathways. Yet during the day I find it hard to visualise...I rc-I'm awake...ok...as if...pupils dialate for a moment as I try and imagine, yet it feels hard to go far with it in the day to day affair and seconds later I'm somewhat out of momentum



The practice is very helpful with remember goals in DILDs. There are 2 things that should give you more momentum. One is to think about how fun it would be if you were dreaming at any point during the day. For example - say there is a sexy teacher, you could do all kinds of things in the classroom right in front of everyone if you were dreaming. Or say an annoying teacher, person or situation - you could teleport to your favorite vacation spot! The possibilities are endless and imagining the impossible in the waking world can be fun. The other thing that may give you more momentum is to simulate an RC showing that you are dreaming. I like simulating 6 fingers and also the feeling of floating by lifting up on my toes while looking towards the ceiling (the effect is greater when you have a ceiling or similar surface not too far above you).





> I'll also read back up on SSILD. Seemed like a basic sensory awareness which you then let go of and it somehow carrys forward into a DILD...
> MILd also I'll read back on. I always found the mantra or affirmation part of it fine. The visualising last dream and becoming lucid in I did less.



SSILD - yes, which is why it can be take less time/effort than you WILD divesperfect for when you are feeling like putting in as much effort or when you don't have the time to.

On MILD, I feel the visualization part is very powerful. It doesn't have to be a dream you just woke up from. I've used another dream from that night or another night. I've used waking life scenarios and completely made up scenarios. As long as I can visualize the scenario well, it has a high rate of success.

Congratulations on starting with an LD success!  :smiley:

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## Patjunfa

Thanks. That's v useful feedback. I can picture how to imagine being lucid in the day better now. Think before I wasn't thinking big/creatively enough...imagine creating a portal and go somewhere deadly...cultivating excitement about anything being possible...I see the bonus goal for the month is to go to Pandora. Going to try that as it's something different than I'd usually aim towards, it's a challenging and fun idea. Also something a bit far out during the day to picture being able to do

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## Patjunfa

Had another DILD last night. This DV activity is going well so far. I was looking at one of my old fights (Sanshou/Chinese boxing) in a compilation on my phone. ! Cool, I didn't think they had that fight. I do nose blow test, feels like some air. I do it a few times as it doesnt seem like a dream as its just the bedroom in the dark. I cant seal nose-cool, fingers bit different as best I can make out. Cool dreaming! I want to go to Pandora (DV bonus task of the month). I call out "lucidity boost please" and the room becomes brighter and blue sky outside window "thanks". I put hand on window, hard, hold til goes through, I'm outside somewhere, I use finger and try and draw a portal on a wall "I want to go to Pandora". doesnt work/feel different. I look for a clearer part of a wall- find a space on a hotel wall, put hand on it expeting a portel, it melts into a purple red thing, and asks for Majellas credit card. I walk on, into what seems like a market. A guy says Hi and seems to know me. I see a wall which I plan to draw a portel on, as I walk towards I feel the dream disolving. I wait to see if will reform but I end up in non lucid sleep

Nice to feel more confidence with DILD's. I was expecting to draw a portel on a wall, as this is something I'd done before, but could have tryed anywhere, or expected to find pandora behind a door I open, or even pulled out my credit card and said Pandora now. I'd love to be able to fly to Pandora, through space and past planets and expanse, but I tend to find I only get to a certain height when flying...As the dream was destabilizing, there was a moment if I had been fast enough, I could probably stabilised it, but it was quick enough. I was still and waited to see if dream would reform. Perhaps its good to visualize last scene of dream. But I find the effort of active imagination is different to just picking up the slip stream of the dream (if its near me) and following it into next dream. I may play more with active imagination to see...Going to continue with this dream task and see if I can do within January. Its more frivolous and fun orientated than my usual goals

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## fogelbise

> ...but could have tryed anywhere, or expected to find pandora behind a door I open, or even pulled out my credit card and said Pandora now.



I like your thinking here. Thinking of a different way anytime the first way gives us challenges is a useful process in lucid dreams.





> I'd love to be able to fly to Pandora, through space and past planets and expanse, but I tend to find I only get to a certain height when flying...



I can't pretend that I haven't had challenges with this also, but it is definitely possible! I have flown in outer space, among planets and made a few trips to the moon. I recommend the following thread of mine which is not just for newbies: http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...-read-imo.html





> I was still and waited to see if dream would reform. Perhaps its good to visualize last scene of dream. But I find the effort of active imagination is different to just picking up the slip stream of the dream (if its near me) and following it into next dream. I may play more with active imagination to see...



I've used both methods but I think it is a good idea to have a plan in place so that you do one or the other with maximum efficiency. For visualization you want to imagine as many senses as possible while keeping looking around fairly actively for any hints of dream formation (and avoiding eyes locked in place too long). When using the other method, waiting for a new scene to form, I recommend continuing to move or at least rub your hands while reminding yourself "I'm dreamingI'm dreaming."

Congratulations on another DILD! Keep up the great work!  :smiley:

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## Patjunfa

Cool, that's a good thread. Power of expectation and schema's. For a long time I used to think I could only have 1 LD a week, cause that's how it seemed to be. Then after I'd have a LD, I'd think ah...won't have another one this week. It was one of those obvious but still lightbulb moments when I realised my self constructed theory was entirely arbitrary and unhelpful and limiting and so I'm free to have any number of lucids if that happens
I think that expectation happens with lucids ending too soon. It's hard to get past sometimes. Can try plant a new belief with affirmations, but at one level it's hard to uproot an old belief until evidence shows us something different, and sowing new seeds or affirmations can be hard as being creatures of habit, it can at times be hard to really energise a new practice. Robert Waggoner has a practice where you try energising a relatively neutral aspect of your personality, such as saying, I'm the funniest guy in Ireland. After,a while he says you'll notice others picking up on this and finding you hilarious.
I'm wondering if it's the same with traveling through space. Maybe it's a difficult thing for the mind, maybe it's a limiting construct. Even if difficult, well...I can do lots of difficult things that then become easy! Has me thinking of trying this route to Pandora....think big and it may happen. If it doesn't then I'll try again or via a different route...
In recent times I think I've flown higher and had a sense of expanse, but it can sometimes alternate between being high up and close to the ground...
Anyway, I'm travelling through space tonight to Pandora, going be awesome :-)

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## Patjunfa

Short WILD last night. Not v remarkable but nice anyway. Wasn't best conditions/sleep in general. Woke early enough and didn't seem to be getting back to sleep. Put on a yoga Nidra meditation, not expecting to sleep but more as a body awareness/relaxation. Had that nice floating upwards, nice sensations, took a bit for body to form and voice to feel stable. Tried getting out window but it bent outwards with me. Other bits n bobs in the dream, tried going to Pandora via doorways. In a cupboard I closed the door back on myself to black out the dream hoping Pandora would form. Some purple luminescent stripes formed giving a sense of a tiger. I had some concern about blacking out the dream and waking so I left the cupboard and went back to window where dream dissolved. 
Should have committed to what was happening in cupboard, 1/2 registered doubt controlled my actions. All learning and will hopefully commit more next time or recognise doubt/concern and respond, rather than have it control me
Nice spell of lucidity this week and going to Pandora tonight!

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## fogelbise

> Should have committed to what was happening in cupboard, 1/2 registered doubt controlled my actions. All learning and will hopefully commit more next time or recognise doubt/concern and respond, rather than have it control me



It's easy to second guess yourself. If you found Pandora through the window, then it would have been a great decision. Thinking back though, I do seem to have found the most success by trying something a little different but while staying in the same spot. You simply thinking this: "commit more next time" will help you to next time around, especially if you are also thinking about it in a positive "can do" sort of way before bed and at any WBTB.

Regarding the previous post on expectations and length of lucid: expectation is definitely a key ingredient, so try to know that you can have long lucid dreams. I don't know how you feel about supplements, but the fact that I can have long lucid dreams frequently really set in after I started experimenting with Galantamine plus Choline Bitartrate (I currently experiment with it no more than once every 2 weeks, though once every 4 days is the recommended shortest time between doses for lucid dreaming, in order to reduce possible tolerance). By knowing it is possible with the great brain chemistry the supplements provide, I found myself having consistently longer lucid dreams on nights when I was not utilizing the supplements.

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## Patjunfa

thanks for all the feedback. really generous with your time. 
some years ago I experimented with supplements, impressed by Yushac's advanced lucid dreaming book. I had some good results with it back then. Tryed again some time back and had mixed results. some cool flying on muccana puriens. at times felt seasick after galantamine and choline which put me off. I may try again tho, even just with alpha GPC which is meant to really extend the lenghts of lucids. 

had some lucidity last night. went to bed early and full of confidence. got up, wrote dreams and went to bed in another room. 
had a shortish DILD, became aware of  new building near my home and twigged it. some kids there I talked to a bit then climbed up a ladder in case they hung onto me, then woke.
a while later I had a WILD. nice floating up beginning. met a friend who said she doesn't really do tai chi in dreams, I said its cool, and we did some tai chi together. connecting energy through our hands, lovely...
I went out through the window confidently. calling out my intention to go to Pandora, started flying over buildings, some funny smoky thing...started to kind of list what I'd been flying over to have a way to remember it. thinking I want to fly high up past planets, 1/2 imagining this. then woke
reimagined scenes from last part of dream but felt too awake

some nice parts to lucids, (some nice non lucids also). surprised was short tho. I didn't do much (any?) stabilisation... had in mind having a goal to move towards would keep me engaged. perhaps looking at hands or some spoken self reminders, may help keep lucidity...conscious expectation was for it to continue... though perhaps like surfing, some waves happen to just peter out...in earlier short lucid where I climbed away from kids and woke...I've noticed b4 if I try and avoid a DC I sometimes wake. I'd like (if clarity was there) to acknowledge what's there, in case its something the dream wants to say. then refocus...will build this into my daytime lucid practice/rehearsal.

when you say trying something a little different while in the same spot. do you mean if one thing doesn't work, trying a different method straight after? 
I kind of wonder if it doesn't work there and then, will another attempt be pushing against the dream and perhaps be 'not listening' to the result...however maybe it just needs more creativity and or belief...i think in next lucid attempt I may call out what way will I travel to Pandora now? and follow whatever impulse arises

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## fogelbise

> when you say trying something a little different while in the same spot. do you mean if one thing doesn't work, trying a different method straight after? 
> I kind of wonder if it doesn't work there and then, will another attempt be pushing against the dream and perhaps be 'not listening' to the result...however maybe it just needs more creativity and or belief...i think in next lucid attempt I may call out what way will I travel to Pandora now? and follow whatever impulse arises



Yes, if it is a goal that you really want to do then I don't see anything wrong with trying it in a different way, unless you are getting a strong indication otherwise. If you were getting a strong indication otherwise it would be interesting to ask the dream why that is. So an example of trying something different would be opening and closing the cupboard door again perhaps while calling out with confidence that Pandora will start forming followed by starting to imagine as many senses as possible that you can connect to Pandora. What sounds would you hear there? What will the various items in the forest feel like? Perhaps you have a candle, soap or other scent that you decide smells like Pandora. You decide if there is a breeze and what the temperature might be like. Alternatively you could do this without reopening the cupboard. Another tip is when you saw the luminescent stripes, you could say yes I see an animal forming…ah yes, there's his eyes, and I hear his purr/roar/whatever, I can reach out and feel his fur. And over there a leaf…and now a branch, the whole tree is forming.
You can also practice this during the day.





> at times felt seasick after galantamine and choline which put me off. I may try again tho, even just with alpha GPC which is meant to really extend the lenghts of lucids.



5-HTP taken before going to bed (about 5 hours before taking Galantamine+Choline) can reduce the side effects the next day by giving you some good deep sleep during the first 5 hours. It is also intended to provide REM rebound during the final hours of your sleep, potentially giving you longer lucid experiences.

Congratulations on another DILD and WILD combo!

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## Patjunfa

V cool suggestions Tnks. Has me smiling. A different way of being within lucids...exciting :-)

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## Patjunfa

Nice lucid last night. 
I had woken from a dream. Was trying to re-imagine the last scenes of the dream for a while. I was imagining my hands, can see a silhouette of them, move and rub together, cool, can feel them even if not formed yet, rub and clap, listening, cool, sound, they form into proper vivid dream hands “that’s how I want it”I start singing about being in a dream, walk through a corridor and theres a room full of beautiful people having dinner, lots of tables, I call out hello, they smile (“hello Patrick?”)- I say I’d like to group I’d like to have a long and stable lucid dream and want to ask for your help with this, they smile and seem to affirm, as I go to leave I repeat that I’d like it to be a long and stable dream. A woman at edge says she had a dream and starts to tell it. I fear this may distract or wake me. I walk over to her to be involved/immersed in dream and look at her in detail, she tells a dream about being on Oprah and being 57. I start to wonder how I could remember all the detail and want to leave, I walk to edge of room, shes still going. I go out into corridor again (same as earlier), I call our “I want to go to Pandora now. How will I travel there now?”. I see ahead of me, there are a few huge green cactus like branches (not spikey). OK, I go over to them and pull them over myself and turn into the dark green wall, visuals become black, becomes a giant (endless?) bracnch which I’m sliding along, I think this is meant to be Pandora at night time. Lots of golden twinkling stars appear in front of me. I call out “I want to go to the tree of souls”, the branch becomes more green (from being yellow)-I continue to travel down it, with my legs wrapped around it, cool Crystal castles music playing. I Wake

Some lovely parts of the lucid. Cool soundtrack, nice how the dream formed, the friendly group I met, and the request to go to Pandora being met somewhat. I’d more in mind for my goal to go to Pandora though. I’d like to have a long enough adventure on Pandora (looking more like Pandora), meet with the Navi and go to the Tree of souls (meant to be the Navis closest connection to Eywa). Not sure at the moment will I keep this as a goal. Spiked my interest as it’s the bonus task in the tasks for the month. Funny how that adds to enthusiasm. Been able to play with this during the day, faking RC’s failing and getting enthusiastic about maybe making a portal or blasting into space. (I want to develop this daytime practice and find ways to add more juice to it, as still only v brief but still useful I think).  Think I will try again to go to Pandora and connect to the tree of souls and maybe play with the Navi, at least until the end of the month. 

Asides from that, had one other short DILD during the week and a couple of nights setting good intent and MILD attempts without success. Tried SSILD last night without Lucid carryover. Felt nice and meditative and woke feeling v settled. With SSILD, do I sent any intent/mantra or just cycle with the senses (sight, sound and touch). As I think of it, trying SSILD earlier in night, prob helped with later forming of dream and bringing in senses. Overall having a good spell of lucidity and cultivating the expectation of becoming lucid at night.

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## fogelbise

> Nice lucid last night. 
> I had woken from a dream. Was trying to re-imagine the last scenes of the dream for a while. I was imagining my hands, can see a silhouette of them, move and rub together, cool, can feel them even if not formed yet, rub and clap, listening, cool, sound, they form into proper vivid dream hands thats how I want itI start singing about being in a dream



Very nice job Patjunfas! This sounds like a good process for you anytime you feel like you've woken up. Singing in your LD is always a good sign and you got a soundtrack too which is always nice. The trip down the branch sounded cool and the golden twinkling stars, and treesI have an affinity for trees for some reason.





> With SSILD, do I sent any intent/mantra or just cycle with the senses (sight, sound and touch).



Traditionally no, but I see nothing wrong with experimenting with that. I think it could help if done before the cycles, or possibly even after the cycles, if you don't fall asleep right away.

Keep up the great progress  :smiley:

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## Patjunfa

Not been the most active week for framing for a few reasons. Bit of a cold, heavy sinuses so nighttime not spacious. Also painting in bedroom so in the spare room now. I find I commit more to practice when after some length of WBTB I change rooms and sleep the last part of the night alone. Going to get some different earplugs as better ones may give more confidence without perfect conditions.

Had a shortish DILD almost a week ago and v short WILD early in night couple of days ago. Neither particularly noteworthy. Great night last night. No lucidity but still v satisfying. I'd Planned to experiment with some ALpha GPC but had a dream that I took as being negative about this. Wrote dreams a few times during the night, which I've been too lazy to do recently. Lots of fun non lucids, running along b side my old cat, in a manor like in princess Mononoke. Weird fights like from a computer game. Fun. 
Been good reading through some others lucids on DV...getting a broader sense of of options with LD's. 

Things I'd like to do to help my practice 
Experiment more with imaging being lucid in day. Did seem useful last week. Mulling on the difference between regular reality checking practice and regular faking reality check practice. Perhaps regular reality checks build a habit of confirming that your not lucid, whereas faking it may create a new pathway of. "I look at my hands and I'm lucid" . Seems easier to do as a practice when excited about a dream goal or the potential of lucidity. 
My other thing to do is try and be clearer on what current dream goals are. Pandora was a fun goal. Didn't get as far with it as I'd like which was to go to the tree of souls. Other TOTM, getting onto an alien spaceship has that fun/far out quality as does one of the potential tasks for next month, meet the Buddha. Such fun motivations feel like they help my goal of becoming more dexterous and familiar with lucidity which will hopefully help with other goals of having awareness in deep sleep and being able to inhabit other creations within the dream and not identifying with the dream ego/projecting separation into my experience (had one nice dream of this nature).
Going to order earplugs today as part of momentum

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## aaronoscar

> Also painting in bedroom so in the spare room now.



I guess as you said with cold, haven't been as effortful but could be interesting to play a bit with autosuggestion in the downtime. Especially just playing on the potentially spiked awareness of being in a totally different room. Along with the fact that some of your WILDs & false awakenings start off from your bedroom or the bed/buddabag you've switched to.  ...or just to really spike awareness and sleep in your bed carefully while the painting is drying (if you don't fumigate yourself by doing so).





> I'd Planned to experiment with some ALpha GPC but had a dream that I took as being negative about this.... Lots of fun non lucids, running along b side my old cat, in a manor like in princess Mononoke. Weird fights like from a computer game. Fun. ...and not identifying with the dream ego/projecting separation into my experience (had one nice dream of this nature).



Aw beautiful - esp the princess mononoke influence. Look forward to hearing more about meaningful/ noteworthy dreams at some stage or when back.

Intrigued by stringing this simulated RC along with Robert's & fogelbise's advice (recent post on my workbook) on uprooting & replacing expectations with seeds of ease and smoothness, and expecting a certain standard of awareness regarding states and induction methods.

Enjoy using consumerism to fuel lucid drive, it's a good one!  :Dead Horse:  

 :buns:

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## fogelbise

> Traditionally no, but I see nothing wrong with experimenting with that. I think it could help if done before the cycles, or possibly even after the cycles, if you don't fall asleep right away.



I just wanted to add something in case you experiment with SSILD. If you do add in any intent/mantra after the cycles, I would recommend to keep it light as you want to keep on track on your journey to sleep. SSILD sometimes creates a trance-like feeling and often brings up strong HH's. I find that intent and mantras are more powerful in the HH stage and that interesting questions and answers can be discovered during HH's, dreamlets and what may sometimes be NREM.





> Going to get some different earplugs as better ones may give more confidence without perfect conditions.



I like the soft/supple ones with a high decibel rating. Sometimes I have to loosen them a bit for comfort or also to avoid missing my alarm…haha.





> Had a shortish DILD almost a week ago and v short WILD early in night couple of days ago. Neither particularly noteworthy. Great night last night. No lucidity but still v satisfying. I'd Planned to experiment with some ALpha GPC but had a dream that I took as being negative about this. Wrote dreams a few times during the night, which I've been too lazy to do recently. Lots of fun non lucids, running along b side my old cat, in a manor like in princess Mononoke. Weird fights like from a computer game. Fun.



Great!..some lucidity and some enjoyable non lucid dreams as well, which are valuable as well.





> Been good reading through some others lucids on DV...getting a broader sense of of options with LD's.



Absolutely, this can be useful…just be mindful of what Aaronoscar & I talked about in his workbook for any occasions that you read something negative in someone's workbook (how some challenge or problem they had doesn't have to translate to your dreams!).  :smiley: 





> Things I'd like to do to help my practice 
> Experiment more with imaging being lucid in day. Did seem useful last week. Mulling on the difference between regular reality checking practice and regular faking reality check practice. Perhaps regular reality checks build a habit of confirming that your not lucid, whereas faking it may create a new pathway of.



I agree that creating these new neural pathways or reinforcing existing ones may be the mechanism working here. I do both kinds of reality checks thinking that there has to be value in the original way of doing RC's as well.





> Such fun motivations feel like they help my goal of becoming more dexterous and familiar with lucidity...



I wholeheartedly agree.





> Intrigued by stringing this simulated RC along with Robert's & fogelbise's advice (recent post on my workbook) on uprooting & replacing expectations with seeds of ease and smoothness, and expecting a certain standard of awareness regarding states and induction methods.



Indeed. I liked your feedback that was in your workbook regarding this and the tie in to Robert's advice.

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## Patjunfa

Lovely Lucid last night. Long, stable and clear. I’ve a bit of a new habit of SSILD earlier in night and then MILD on l8r awakenings (same as what you do Fogelbise…v suggestible :-)). Really liking SSILD even for the lovely meditative transition into sleep and the rest that brings. Its interesting having transitioned from primarily relying on WILD, which I love but is a bigger commitment, to DILD, which is easier to fit in and I’m having more lucids :-)… We have a small LD group meeting up in a couple of days, where I live, so last night I had motivation to bring some recent lucidity and inspiration to the group. Did short WBTB with a bit of Tai Chi. Then the following DILD. Meant when I woke it was 5.40, I wrote for 45 mins, and at 6.25 decided to get up. Lovely walk, stars still out, reflecting on how dreamlike and malleable perception is. Time when back for a nice meditation then getting the kids up. Much earlier than I’d have chosen to start the day, but lovely.

In dream my wife was taping me awake/banging off me, she was then doing Yoga, seemed v early in the morning for this. I look at the clock, its v cool looking and unreadable. Dreaming! Cool…can’t remember early part, hands on a ledge, look at hands, v stable. Reflect on sensation of being banged off and still staying asleep. Think dream plan-Call out “dream show me something important I need to see”- don’t remember, colour change or something that doesn’t feel v significant. Think of other tasks…TOTM, read a book with secrets written on it, ok, look in bedside looker- 1st book, small hardback black book, says secrets on it- then word gone/unreadable-Doh…look in it anyway out of curiosity, lovely dyed pinkish pages, pop up book at parts, like a nose and other things, wonder how would I remember all these images/drawings. Put it back and look for other books with secret written on it- My Wife and sister in room, My Mum there, looking like she did 30 years ago, I give her a hug. As they are going downstairs, I say a bit ackwardly about the other TOTM where a DC gives me a task to do outside. Woman/ Granny, like my neighbours mum says yes but what about the trinity? Seems annoyed and religious. Ok…weird…I’ll leave. Bit cold/raining outside. No runners on. I start to look for them-realise it’s a dream and they will arrive or will be fine. My boxing boots are on as I walk out-into a room with some lads- easy going good connection with. Seems fine to ask them. Say about TOTM where in a LD have to ask a DC for a task to do outside. Theyre curious…I say its for a forum online and you get wings…it’s a bit silly but its fun and motivates you a bit (move from feeling a bit daft to ok with it), guy says yeh he gets it. I say can be anything, he holds an orange lighter at an angle and sparks it “like this?” and clicks it again. I say perfect thanks. Loads of guys there, all seem sound. Think about asking them about something to do with dream world/If they are DC’s, feels somehow may end the dream. Think of other task of turning dream to back and white- would it be ok? Think of Sivasons post-everything being colour and projection and substanceless. OK Black and white…2 sides of the room (like a vertical band, about 10 % of room, goes b&W. Try again, same…band moves-A DC gets some B&W on face and hair-guy lying down has kilt up, grey hair and balls. Seems annoyed/grumpy old man. Other DC’s laugh. I head back into a different building/homeward. Thinking about how long and stable a dream this is and if should wake in order to be able to remember it but decide to keep going. Go through a turnstile type of thing. My Wife turns over in bed against me and I wake

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## fogelbise

Very nice Patjunfa! Good memory of several different TOTM's as well!





> Lovely Lucid last night. Long, stable and clear. Ive a bit of a new habit of SSILD earlier in night and then MILD on l8r awakenings



What does the breakdown of your night look like when using this combination? (doing SSILD at what stage? how much later for MILD?)





> Really liking SSILD even for the lovely meditative transition into sleep and the rest that brings. Its interesting having transitioned from primarily relying on WILD, which I love but is a bigger commitment, to DILD, which is easier to fit in and Im having more lucids :-)



SSILD does seem to me to be a special technique and yes, working in DILDs to your practice can definitely increase LD frequency.





> We have a small LD group meeting up in a couple of days, where I live, so last night I had motivation to bring some recent lucidity and inspiration to the group.



I'm jealous! I only have one friend that is really interested and involved with lucid dreaming and I only see that friend a few times a year. This is great that you have such a group!..I recommend to work however you can at keeping it going. Around my parts there should be demand for such a group and I've seen meet-up groups posted online but they seem to only have a few people saying they will attend and seem to become inactive shortly after starting.





> Lovely walk, stars still out, reflecting on how dreamlike and malleable perception is.



I love walking under the stars, though there are a few too many city lights where I am most of the time. Over the last 4 years of my lucid dreaming practice I have come to what sounds like the same kind of realization regarding the malleable nature of waking life perception. I see so much more beauty, in unexpected places and in unexpected ways, far more frequently now.





> Thinking about how long and stable a dream this is and if should wake in order to be able to remember it but decide to keep going. Go through a turnstile type of thing. My Wife turns over in bed against me and I wake



I suggest to always assume that you are experiencing HH's or a full on FA whenever you feel like your Wife is waking you up. If you are being woken by your Wife moving, then this assumption can assist you in DEILDing. Same thing with HH's. If you are actually in an FA (which is very common after doing SSILD) then you can discover that you are in a new dream scene and be lucid once again! It sounded like this dream started as an FA with your wife waking you in bed and you noticing the weird clock. At the end of the dream, the fact that moments before you were thinking about waking up in order to remember all of your adventures further suggests that this could have triggered an FA initially, perhaps turning into an actual awakening at some point. Please don't think of this a negative, but rather a positive angle for you to pursue even more lucidity in the future if you are not ready to wake up and record your adventures.  :smiley:

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## Patjunfa

Still nice feeling from such a solid lucid. Funny how next night, went to bed psyched with a dream goal, even mild WBTB and only a couple of lines of recall in morning...No gaurentees or real predictability in this. 





> What does the breakdown of your night look like when using this combination? (doing SSILD at what stage? how much later for MILD?)



I tend to do SSILD if I wake after 3 or 4 1/2 hours. Brought me into a WILD one time after about 2 1/2 hrs sleep. Any other wakings I tend to do MILD at the moment. 





> I'm jealous! I only have one friend that is really interested and involved with lucid dreaming and I only see that friend a few times a year. This is great that you have such a group!..I recommend to work however you can at keeping it going.



Yeh, quite fortunate. Its only a small group and in its infancy. A few other people interested in Lucid dreaming. Mostly not getting lucid yet but building potential. We organised a weekend workshop, with Robert Waggoner last Oct, here in the village myself and Aaronoscar live. Hope the others stay into it. Having a mate into lucid dreaming has made it so much more fun. Getting to meet on WBTB's, share lucid's and reflections. Easier to learn anything in contact with others...





> If you are being woken by your Wife moving, then this assumption can assist you in DEILDing. Same thing with HH's. If you are actually in an FA (which is very common after doing SSILD) then you can discover that you are in a new dream scene and be lucid once again! It sounded like this dream started as an FA with your wife waking you in bed and you noticing the weird clock. At the end of the dream, the fact that moments before you were thinking about waking up in order to remember all of your adventures further suggests that this could have triggered an FA initially, perhaps turning into an actual awakening at some point.



Its something I've tryed to compulsively RC after being woken, or whenever I do wake after attempting Lucid. It was a frequent FA thinking someone was waking me. Unfortunatly, despite intentions to RC, I often fall into proper FA...Its interesting that I was considering waking before an event actually did wake me...If I hadn't thought of it, perhaps I'd have slept through it?. How would I use it for a DEILD? Just aim to remain still and go into a DEILD, visualizing dream etc. As said in a previous post, the odd time this works lovely, but sometimes it feels the train has speeded off without me and I'm totally awake...Perhaps its something to respond to quicker and expect to be able to DEILD...

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## fogelbise

> Still nice feeling from such a solid lucid. Funny how next night, went to bed psyched with a dream goal, even mild WBTB and only a couple of lines of recall in morning...No gaurentees or real predictability in this.



I love the "afterglow" of a good lucid dream! I know yours was good with you still feeling it a few days later! 

Regarding the guarantees or predictability of becoming lucid, I hear you! It does get more predictable with sustained practice according to my own experience and others I've talked to on Dreamviews. The following is from the "About Me" tab on my profile page here on Dreamviews:

LD Count Total at each anniversary + % increase to rate of LDs
2/1/14 @103 total LDs
2/1/15 @274 +66% rate of LDs by end of year two
2/1/16 @441 -2% temporary plateau through year three
2/1/17 @655 +28% improving LD rate again through year four

I am guessing that I plateaued in year 3 of my practice due to becoming complacent; being happy enough with the rate of my lucid dreams. When I saw that plateau, it was a wake up call for me to do better so now I try to keep a closer eye on how I am doing throughout the year. For me, effort and the enthusiasm that feeds that effort play a significant part in how consistently I keep up my day and nighttime practices.





> Yeh, quite fortunate. Its only a small group and in its infancy. A few other people interested in Lucid dreaming. Mostly not getting lucid yet but building potential. We organised a weekend workshop, with Robert Waggoner last Oct, here in the village myself and Aaronoscar live. Hope the others stay into it. Having a mate into lucid dreaming has made it so much more fun. Getting to meet on WBTB's, share lucid's and reflections. Easier to learn anything in contact with others...



Awesome! Really, really valuable in my eyes!





> Its something I've tryed to compulsively RC after being woken, or whenever I do wake after attempting Lucid. It was a frequent FA thinking someone was waking me. Unfortunatly, despite intentions to RC, I often fall into proper FA...Its interesting that I was considering waking before an event actually did wake me...If I hadn't thought of it, perhaps I'd have slept through it?



Definitely possiblebut then again you might not have captured as much detail for what had happened so far in your lucid if you hadn't woken up - so not a bad thing at all.  :smiley:  Regarding intentions to catch FA's: I hear you and it does seem to be true that we may have to choose what we want to focus our intentions on so that the intentions are not diluted by too many different intentions. I personally wouldn't make FA's a priority, but keeping FA's in mind as a possibility may help you to catch an FA here and there. The reason I wouldn't make FA's a priority is because they tend to be short lived for me, occurring near the end of a REM cycle and thus not as much time left in the REM cycle to be lucid in.





> How would I use it for a DEILD? Just aim to remain still and go into a DEILD, visualizing dream etc.



Yes like that, plus by considering any movements from your wife or noises that could be from waking life as HH's instead, it can help keep you more in the dreamy state and away from expecting to be fully awake. When I was focusing on DEILDs I was getting more DEILDs this way. Later I started focusing on what I call pre-DEILD where any fading of the dream I expect is just temporary and transition from the dark formless void into a new scene, instead of expecting to wake up and needing to DEILD. I would suggest to start with whichever one sounds best for you at this time (DEILD or pre-DEILD) as this is another good way to increase lucid experience (but only when you are ready to shift the focus of your intention or if you feel you can add one more intention reliably).





> As said in a previous post, the odd time this works lovely, but sometimes it feels the train has speeded off without me and I'm totally awake...Perhaps its something to respond to quicker and expect to be able to DEILD...



If your brain is ready to wake up for the day it may be an uphill battle, but other times you can manage a DEILD or pre-DEILD. You can develop a sense for which is the case over time, but in the meantime it doesn't hurt to assume that you have a good chance to go back in...to a dream lucid.

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## Patjunfa

Great feedback again. Tnks. 
Yeh, nice afterglow. That's what I'm aiming for, really stable and clear lucids with the confidence in them that I can just keep exploring and playing

Really interesting to see your progression in LD count. Sometimes I've had the impression that people (inc me)reach a certain standard which doesn't change much. Your stats totally show opposite as true. Gives me hope of continuing to develop to the level of proficiency that I really want.

V interesting what you say about DEILD. I had a lucid with DEILD last night perhaps primed by having read your post. ..had being having a spontaneous lucid ..Woke, not wide awake but dream not that close by either. Remembered last visual of dream, remembered feeling in fingers of the wall I was climbing and after a bit dream reformed. Felt good to be more habitual with bringing different senses into visualisation. Lucid not too remarkable and went down an old an pleasant cul de sac  :;-): 
Would like to understand more what you mean on DEILDs. Plan to read up on it. Is it expecting that if dream wakes that will remain in formless void? Makes sense. Yet at the time I know sometimes I'm just suddenly so awake it feels like having to go to sleep from start...doesnt feel time to catch the transition.perhaps planting the seed of DEILD or pre DEILD will have an effect non the less. Like last night...

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## fogelbise

> V interesting what you say about DEILD. I had a lucid with DEILD last night perhaps primed by having read your post.



Very nice! Congratulations! It's these kinds of things that will get you on the path to where you want to be with proficiency as you say.  :smiley: 





> ..had being having a spontaneous lucid ..Woke, not wide awake but dream not that close by either. Remembered last visual of dream, remembered feeling in fingers of the wall I was climbing and after a bit dream reformed. Felt good to be more habitual with bringing different senses into visualisation.



Great job!





> Would like to understand more what you mean on DEILDs. Plan to read up on it. Is it expecting that if dream wakes that will remain in formless void? Makes sense. Yet at the time I know sometimes I'm just suddenly so awake it feels like having to go to sleep from start...doesnt feel time to catch the transition.perhaps planting the seed of DEILD or pre DEILD will have an effect non the less. Like last night...



Exactly, if you plant a strong enough seeda strong enough intention to continue to lucid dream, you will start to look for the opportunities to continue "staying under" whenever a dream seems to be fading. If you expect to stay asleep and dreaming, you have a much better chance of not waking up. I think the biggest challenge for most people is that they are expecting to wake up and until they can get over that, then DEILD is the next best thing...and a pretty awesome option at thatway better than assuming that every time it feels like you are waking up that you actually do. 

Sometimes I feel the dream fading and I can get the visuals going again in the same scene - ah there it is formingcoming back I might say to myself influencing it to come back. Sometimes it fades to a complete black void but keeping my dream body moving and I either wait for the next dream to form...or preferably I actively influence the dream that will form by seeding what I want to see, kind of like the way you "remembered feeling in fingers of the wall I was climbing." My favorite is imagining the sounds of gentle waves lapping up on the beach along with the feeling of the water on my toes and the salt and cool air on my face and tongue. You would want to use your favorite "happy place" though. Let me know if you still have questions and once again, great job!

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## Patjunfa

Had a few nights trying MILD and SSILD but not much results. One beginning of a WILD which was nice and a v short DILD last night, which was nice to have something after a few days of no carryover. A couple of nights ago woke at 5, hard to wake, wrote dream and went to bathroom and light stretch, then no sleep for next hour until I got up  ::roll::  still...meant more time for morning meditation
Undaunted anyway, after a general good lucid spree, I'm still thinking I can progress to the level of lucid ease I'm looking for. Having a good dream goal seems useful. Last night my goal was to meet an embodiment of dream wisdom and also to call to meet my shadow (which has led to some interesting lucids before). I also want to develop a fun/exciting goal to have alongside more exploratory/spiritual/psychological goals. I think the fun goals access a different motivation which is useful and has crossover. As I was hiking the other day I thought how much fun it would be to transform into a horse and gallop, or in general to be able to shift perspective into different dream characters or not have perception confined to the dream ego...Going out tonight so prob wont be best night for induction but def still on the job  :smiley: 

Fogelbise, in a different thread you were mentioning the peg system for remembering dream goals. I've been playing with memory systems lately. A couple of times I used them to remember dreams during the night rather than waking and writing. In Daniel loves book he talks about using memory systems to remember long lucids and also to remember dream goals while in the lucid. It could be handy during a lucid if you could recall some of the sequence and tie it into a memory system, but I've found sometimes If my mind wanders into to much remembering during the dream it feels a bit like im not in the dream and I wake...Perhaps with more confidence and expectation it may work. Curious what your use of the peg system has been...

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## fogelbise

> A couple of nights ago woke at 5, hard to wake, wrote dream and went to bathroom and light stretch, then no sleep for next hour until I got up  still...meant more time for morning meditation



It's good that you found the positive side  :smiley:  I am not sure what your typical post WBTB timeframe is but I prefer to have at least 2-3 hours left to sleep after a WBTB...but everyone's ideal time segment for lucid dreaming may be a little different. I like at least 2-3 hours because I tend to have my strongest lucidity in my next to last REM period, but I frequently get 9 hours of sleep or 6 REM periods and that last one between 7.5 to 9 hours tends to be more fleetingunless perhaps I am experiencing REM rebound after less sleep the night before. So 3 hours plus is ideal...but with at least 2 hours left I have a good shot of getting a full 90 minute cycle in where REM is not cut short by needing to wake up, and it still has a good chance of not being fleeting if I happen to be getting closer to 7.5 hours sleep that night (since 6 to 7.5 hour period seems to be best for me). Let me know if that is too much of a mess to decipher.





> I think the fun goals access a different motivation which is useful and has crossover.



I strongly agree!  :smiley:  





> As I was hiking the other day I thought how much fun it would be to transform into a horse and gallop, or in general to be able to shift perspective into different dream characters or not have perception confined to the dream ego...



I think these kinds of thoughts are very useful to lucid dreaming practice, in addition to being fun IWL! Nice!





> Fogelbise, in a different thread you were mentioning the peg system for remembering dream goals. I've been playing with memory systems lately. A couple of times I used them to remember dreams during the night rather than waking and writing. In Daniel loves book he talks about using memory systems to remember long lucids and also to remember dream goals while in the lucid. It could be handy during a lucid if you could recall some of the sequence and tie it into a memory system, but I've found sometimes If my mind wanders into to much remembering during the dream it feels a bit like im not in the dream and I wake...Perhaps with more confidence and expectation it may work. Curious what your use of the peg system has been...



His book is actually where I got the peg system. I think I played with using the peg system to remember parts of the dream but I have concern that it could interfere with using the pegs for my goals. One way to get around this would be to use pegs 1-5 (or 1-10) for goals and then pegs 6-10 (or 11-20) for dream recall. I currently use pegs for goals and letter tags for recall. Letter tags example from two nights ago HMS HM_? I remember the phrase "Her Majesty's Ship, Her Majesty's _____ (forgot)."  When I wake I write down H=House, M=Mall, S=Stars, 2nd HM_: H=Hands, M=now forget, ___ tag forgotten but it may be for one of the scenes that I do remember and just forgot the letter tag I created for it. It sounds like you know how to use pegs from Love's book, but I currently have 1-10 filled with my goals. I tend to focus on just a few of the pegs and goals at a time and keep the other pegs there for any lucidity where I decide to go after multiple goals. This also allows me to not lose track of goals that may be on the back burner, but goals that I do want to work on (like narrating my dreamsback burner right now but I think it is a very valuable goal that, by the way seems it would be a great way to capture as much recall as possible if you are consistently narrating as you go through the lucid.).

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## Patjunfa

V cool with the tag's. Do you have the tags figured out b4 or just a letter for main events or people etc as it happens and hope that it's enough to associate to in the morning? I often wake regularly during the night and at times aft ach sleep cycle. I find it great hen I make some notes at these, but a bit exhausting if I spend 20 mins or so writing and then some time to go back asleep. It's also disruptive to a good night sleep to be so regularly v awake that you don't go to deep sleep. My ideal is to make v brief notes, even just a few letters like I think you do.it still takes a few mins to recall dreams at times but if cud make v quick notes and not get perfectionist/habitual with detail, it would be useful. The last few days I've only been writing at my final wake up, which feels a bit shoddy...

With memory systems I generally use a journey system, where I picture 10 locations on a journey through my house (or 30 when I want to impress myself :-)). You can make loads of different journeys and it's easy to reimagine walking along the route and remembering. I'd still be curious How much you could do this in a lucid dream and how much the mind can wander from the scene around you, which can lead to waking. Narrating the scene as suggest can be great to build awareness of what's happening. I've done this at times but not as oft as intended. It's perhaps a bit like noting practice in meditation, where one mental notes the changing experience that passes through attention. It's a great way to stay present and attentive to detail.

I'd guess it's a good exercise to plan out 10 goals to do in LD and associate to a memory system

I also like 2-3 hours after a full WBTB. Ideally 3 so can get 2nd cycle in. I plan to do 1st proper WBTB in a while tonight. Feel would like to get back to good level of lucidity to build my sense that I have regular and not only sporadic access to fulfilling lucidity...I have potential to get a good nights sleep next 2 nights so hopefully will have  some success to updat with

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## fogelbise

> V cool with the tag's. Do you have the tags figured out b4 or just a letter for main events or people etc as it happens and hope that it's enough to associate to in the morning?



I make the tags up on the fly. So in the above example I was thinking during a breather (might have been during an FA) something like "Okay I was at a House a few different times, and the beautiful Stars, after the Mall…(what is good to remember that? Rearrange the letters to form HMS.)" But it could have also been SMH which is often used in text messaging to say "Shaking my Head" or keeping in the same order HSM "He sees me", or similar. Yes, I hope it is enough to associate in the morning since my priority is on lucidity over recall. I mostly use letter tags as I am waking up by staying still and making up new tags in my head before moving and getting up to write, and sometimes going over tags already memorized earlier in the night. Tags created during dreams are mostly kept to just FA's (typically before realizing it is an FA) or during quiet time in the void, for me at least. 





> I often wake regularly during the night and at times aft ach sleep cycle. I find it great hen I make some notes at these, but a bit exhausting if I spend 20 mins or so writing and then some time to go back asleep. It's also disruptive to a good night sleep to be so regularly v awake that you don't go to deep sleep. My ideal is to make v brief notes, even just a few letters like I think you do.it still takes a few mins to recall dreams at times but if cud make v quick notes and not get perfectionist/habitual with detail, it would be useful. The last few days I've only been writing at my final wake up, which feels a bit shoddy...



It is definitely up to you and what works for you. If you need a good night's sleep then I would definitely suggest to go the non-perfectionist route and when you are working on building recall stronger as a priority and you can sleep in then perhaps you can spend more time recording throughout the night, but up to you either way. I usually only do two recordings: one recording at my single WBTB (I only rarely do multiple WBTB's though I see nothing wrong with multiples) and one recording when I get up for the morning. I am obviously not capturing every dream scene and probably missing quite a few, but again that is not my priority at this time.





> With memory systems I generally use a journey system, where I picture 10 locations on a journey through my house (or 30 when I want to impress myself :-)). You can make loads of different journeys and it's easy to reimagine walking along the route and remembering. I'd still be curious How much you could do this in a lucid dream and how much the mind can wander from the scene around you, which can lead to waking.



Nice getting up to 30!  :smiley:  It does seem like it would be taking too much focus off of the dream, but then again, it could create a new scene in your journey location which seems akin to what some call a "memory palace." I think narrating has no risk as long as you do not narrate stuff connecting back to being awake...or connecting back to your sleeping body any more than a vague thought of your waking body.





> I'd guess it's a good exercise to plan out 10 goals to do in LD and associate to a memory system



Besides getting excited about a number of different goals, it also gives you one more way and opportunity to exercise memory which is a lucid dreaming fundamental, as long time lucid dreamer Sageous often reminds us here on DV.

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## Patjunfa

Great thanks. Def going to try brief tagging and see how it works. Been an intention since chatting with sensei ages ago. He makes v brief tags on multiple brief wakings. I'm on WBTB at mo. Nice level of recall so far which is good start. Have taped a red light torch to pen so making notes in night easier. All good. Goina do bit of meditation then back to sleep. Time can fly on WBTB. Tnks for your ongoing support. So valuable

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## Patjunfa

no lucidity last night. surprising as conditions were v good. I'd been reading lucid stuff during day, setting intention and rc's, excited to be going to bed, then good amount of sleep, good recall, 1 hr wbtb. woke after 1 1/2 hour, like from long deep sleep. recalled dream, glad that I had another 1 1/2 hrs left. again did Mild visualisation and stating intent, then found it was time to get up...recalled dream. 1/2 surprised and 1/2 amused no lucidity...
ah well, hopefully get good sleep again tonight and perhaps another wbtb. I intend to keep efforts and expectations good and reach goal of regular quality lucids...

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## fogelbise

> I intend to keep efforts and expectations good and reach goal of regular quality lucids...



Great, I am confident this will lead you to that goal.  :smiley:  I still have nights where all conditions seem good but it just doesn't happen, but it is also becoming more common to have lucid dreams when conditions are less than ideal and/or when I wasn't trying that night and just planning to sleep and I chalk that up to the regular efforts that you mention.

Congratulations on the nice set of TOTM wings, by the way!

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## Patjunfa

no lucidity last night. v good routine, which is a success in terms of building good efforts and habits. after 3 hours I woke after each sleep cycle, making notes after most wakes. switched room after 4 ½ hrs. played with SSild Mild and my old favorite 61 point technique (but needed more wakefulness to get this to work). in morning, when checking clock to see what time and if any more time/windows to attempt lucidity, I felt like I had knocked on the door often enough and time to stop. bit disappointing as was kinda building the sense of having good access when I put the right efforts in. its still more nebulous than that though. still inspired by your rate of increase in LD's and expecting to achieve better levels of ease with these practices but weathered enough to take it lightly. also it may all contribute and result in lucidity another time where less effort is put in. prob wknd when get to put decent efforts in nighttime. will still lightly expect more spontaneous lucidity in meanwhile

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## fogelbise

I was in the same boat with you last night...felt good about my efforts but woke up not remembering any lucidity. I had a very interesting dream about a flood and perhaps that flood washed away my lucidity, haha! Here's to us all getting lucid at next sleep!  :smiley:

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## Patjunfa

Lucid on Sat. 
I'm with a woman in work, its dark outside. I ask Why is it dark outside in the middle of the day. Who, I'll tell you why! Cause this is a dream! checked my hands to confirm. "lucidity boost" and it gets brighter and feels stable. I ask a dream character what this dream is about. He answers but I cant make out what words he says. Ok. First goal, do healing on my foot/ankle which has been sore for a while. Rub hands together and bring to heart then to foot. Can feel the usual sore part, find myself spinning slowly as holding foot. Reflect that this is probably useful to keep visuals changing and prevent my single focus as I hold foot. "may my foot be healed of all non beneficial illness". Think whats my next task...1st, call out"why has my foot been sore"? A DC says something but I can't understand the words. I ask again, and she says something like fagus rejectus...I think, does she think I'm gay? and then it goes into a sex dream with her. Good luck to the rest of my dream goals  :;-):  Ended up waking after a bit, lay still and imagined various senses from last activity. DEILD started with a nice similar scene but then woke again and too awake. 
Foot actually has felt a bit better and not sore 1st thing in morning as it has been. Bit different now as I've been running. 

I do hope for a more apparently intelligent/understandable dreamscape. ie. that I can ask things and have a useful understandable response. I've at times asked the dream, show me something important I need to see. At times there has been some form of change but nothing that strikes me as significant, or maybe i'm just not understanding it. I've asked dream characters what they represent and either had words I cant understand as in this dream, or they've asked me what does represent mean...In this dream, the words didn't make sense. Then I got fagus regecticus something like that that. I don't make sense of it, I'm not gay, but totally ok with gay friends and don't have any conscious sense of reactivity or rejection to this theme. Robert Waggoner says that not all DC's are created equal, as in some are v intelligent and some are not. This makes sense to me. Perhaps sometimes you get more of an intelligible response to requests and other times you just get an interesting or different experience.  Sometimes the dream seems v potent and connected and at other times this factor x is not there. 
Going to explore this theme a bit more in dreams. Planning on calling out to meet a manifestation of dream wisdom and see what happens. Will ask them what can they teach me about Lucid dreaming. I've asked for a dream guide a number of times and not gotten a response, except once where a DC sounded irritated and said we've heard you, it'll come...
This workbook is useful. Asides from all the great feedback, it also helps fuel motivation just by being a place to report results. 
Hope your flood has past and lucidity has returned enforce :-)

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## fogelbise

Congratulations on the lucid, getting the DEILD also, and remembering goals! 

One idea to try with any DC is to walk up to them with something like the Jedi Mind Trick, perhaps saying something like "I can tell you are a smart (wise, helpful, whatever) person/DC/other (your choice)" and then ask the question.

Yes, thank you, lucidity did return but I had a couple of dreams the other night where I feel I was able to learn more from them by not becoming lucid, maybe semi-lucid at some point. Interestingly they were almost identical in theme giving me the impression that I interpreted the first dream incorrectly after I woke from it so I got a slightly different version of the same dream theme to make sure I got the message perhaps.

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## Patjunfa

that sounds a good idea with the Jedi trick.  a way of working in dream that id like to play with. putting out the expectation, similarish to how you suggest while waiting for an image to form, to speak what you want to see manifest...ahh I feel the branches of the trees on Pandora and can see the leaves forming. seems like a deliberate way to work with projection and expectation...projection seems to be such a factor in the dream world (waking world to, just less immediately visible). I remember in a LD b4 talking to a DC and having the thought that I don't trust him, his eyes then turned paperlike and he became wooden. in a different dream (wasn't sure if was lucid) there was a dangerous/threatening DC. after initial fear I started saying phrases of loving kindness, my you be well and may you be at  peace, may we both be well and at peace. i feel the dc transformed into to peaceful loving presence. the power of projection is so visable and immediate. I hope to add the deliberate projection that you suggest, to my LD play in the dream world.

been a bit of an interesting week dreaming. had goals I haven't managed to try out and while I've built more confidence and expectation of lucidity, its still clearly not on tap so there can be the edge of frustration at times. at times I've chosen to go more lightly and just enjoy splashing in and out of the waters of unconsciousness even if I don't get to surf. sometimes I just love sleep! it seems an ongoing balancing act to carry expectation and goals and yet appreciate whatever happens...noticing the failed efforts and any reactions, then appreciating again the moment one is in. a bit like revving up while waiting at the lights but not being in gear and so choosing to chil a bit b4 getting ready again...

Interesting how you dreams repeated the theme so you got the message. I find I generally don't 'get' he message from dreams...I just play with th experience and felt sense. I'd like a broader approach. In the past if read a good bit but never felt skilled at dream interpretive work. Jungian or gestalt etc are such a different approach than lucid or dream yoga approach. So often, traditional dream workers are very negative about lucid dreaming, imagining (I think) it to be dream control in service of ego needs.  I haven't come across much explicit writings or material by people who take a lucid approach alongside working with the meaning or messages within dreams. A friend today was mentioning he has been reading c j Jungs red book. I heard of this book so many years ago. It's available now. Thinking I may get it. Also thinking I may listen to Jungs memory's dreams reflections on audio. I loved the book many years ago. May stimulate another relationship to dreaming.

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## fogelbise

> it seems an ongoing balancing act to carry expectation and goals and yet appreciate whatever happens...noticing the failed efforts and any reactions, then appreciating again the moment one is in.



Very true. Whenever you can perform a WBTB, I feel that consistent WBTBs would be the easiest short-term boost to getting consistent LDs. You are doing fine though, noting an LD about a week ago…but improvements are within your grasp I'm sure.

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## Patjunfa

Tnks. Need to be a bit more committed with wbtb. Did 20 min last night, woke every 30-45 mins with no sense of dreams oddly. Plan to do proper 1 hr wbtb tonight and/or tmrow

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## Patjunfa

Had a couple few nights now of 30-40min wbtb. Last night got to bed early and good conditions but no lucidity. Making good consistent efforts but a bit of a dry spell these last 2 weeks. Think only 1 v brief lucid... I started looking back through journal as I'm coming to the end of this journal. At the weekend I hope to mark and maybe write up some of the interesting dreams and lucids during this last journal. Short term memory can be so short and in a dry spell can forget how rich dream life has been over a wider timeframe...Goina keep consistent anyway, might vary dream goal or even try a different induction. Go back to WILD attempts some nights perhaps. Funny (again the short term memory) how confident I felt with MILD and SSILD only a couple of weeks ago. As they added more ease to my induction method, still goina keep em as my (mostly) nightly induction method

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## fogelbise

> At the weekend I hope to mark and maybe write up some of the interesting dreams and lucids during this last journal. Short term memory can be so short and in a dry spell can forget how rich dream life has been over a wider timeframe…
> 
> Goina keep consistent anyway, might vary dream goal or even try a different induction. Go back to WILD attempts some nights perhaps.



-So true! That is something I do as well during a dry spell - going back over recent interesting dreams and any past favorite dreams, lucid or not.

-A new dream goal that gets you excited can be helpful and there is nothing wrong with mixing in different techniques on different nights. DEILD is another easy one to attempt and Broth (another workbook) is really liking CAN WILD (alarms that auto snoozing or auto dismissing - to trigger DEILDs). An easy way to mix that in on any night is to set an alarm with a phone app like Alarm Clock Xtreme to ring for 10-15 seconds perhaps and then auto dismiss and you just remember to lay still when you hear it and try to sink into your bed and back into a dream with awareness. Definitely mix in standard WILDs anytime you feel up to it.

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## Patjunfa

Still on a dry spell. Eager to get back into lucid action. Been making fairly good efforts, daytime intentions, some WBTBs. Did 1 hr last night, followed by SSILD, woke, mild, woke tryed wild but didn't get far. No lucidity,  Gota stay fairly relentlessly optimistic with such an inconsistent resulting practice...can be interesting sometimes how initial morning disappointment shifts and so perception and life are seen as dreamlike and illusionary. Intentions shift from recognising the night time dream state towards being awake to the daytime dream state... 
Night time now tho so goina go unconscious v shortly with interest, intentions and hope

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## fogelbise

I am rooting for you Patjunfa!  :smiley: 

Are you trying any new goals or variations of nighttime practices? I don't always get lucid after a WBTB but I now do a lengthy WBTB (30-50 minutes) almost every night and over the years of consistent practices have gotten more and more consistent results. I enjoy the time up. I usually get to bed earlier to make up for the time that I am not sleeping during WBTB.

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## Patjunfa

Tnks  Fogelbise, your support is great. 
Im On wbtb at the mo. I've changed my current goal and am hoping to do the TOTM. It was an old goal to be able to fly through space. I've never managed it yet so its nice that that's a TOTM. Hoping my efforts to do this provide a learning curve. Also the bonus task of making yourself huge then small again is interesting. Reminds me of one of Wangyals (Tibetan Yogas of dream amd sleep)dream tasks, "change your size in the dream, become as small as an insect and then as large as mountain. Take a big problem and make it small. Take a small beautiful flower and make it as large as the sun". 
As a task it creates a nice fusion of motivations
Haven't really varied induction style much yet. Slightly varied ssild in that I do some mild and intention setting before. And with Mild, really trying to concentrate on the feeling of becoming lucid and then extend into my LD goal. Haven't tryed the DEILD alarm idea yet which sounds good. Planning on setting intent for Deild on nights where I've a bit less time. A couple of nights a week, like tonight, can suit for a good wbtb and then sleep in different room. 

I'd like to be more creative with my time on Wbtb. If its a clear night I can really enjoy getting a good starscape. When Aaronoscar is not in India, we sometimes meet up on wbtb which is fun. Yet sometimes we still find ourselves wondering what would be a good productive or focused use of time. Considering trying to use time more for writing also. 
As you say you enjoy the time what do you find yourself doing? Also do you tend to do after 4 1/2 or 6 hours? I find 4 1/2 good as in the following 2-3 hours I'll prob wake a couple of times which gives a good opportunity to work with the wbtb aroused consciousness. However 6 hours can bring closer to the shoreline of rem sleep and also be a bit less disruptive in terms of sleep quality, cause 6 hours alone cud be OK even on a worknight , where it'd be be a bummer after 4 1/2 if the following sleep wasnt good and then had a long day...also funny how I see my need for quality sleep. I line to get a good sleep. If I had only 5-6 hours from 1-6/7 in morning I'd prob feel fine, but if went to bed at 10 and got up at 3/4 and didnt get good sleep after, I think I'd be a bit daunted by a long days work... 
To sleep now and to fly in space to a random star, then perhaps the bonus TONM  :smiley:

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## fogelbise

> I'd like to be more creative with my time on Wbtb. If its a clear night I can really enjoy getting a good starscape. When Aaronoscar is not in India, we sometimes meet up on wbtb which is fun. Yet sometimes we still find ourselves wondering what would be a good productive or focused use of time.



Perhaps inspiring each other along the lines of "check that out - that's weird/dreamy/beautifulif I were dreaming right now, I would..!..let's do an RC or two or three." I think it can also be productive to discuss recent dreams, things that you are trying, practices you found insightful and/or fun. 





> As you say you enjoy the time what do you find yourself doing? Also do you tend to do after 4 1/2 or 6 hours?



I get out of bed completely and alternate between sitting and standing. I don't think I have ever gone outside, but I see nothing wrong with it if you are able to get back to sleep. I start by journaling the dreams so far and then I like browsing inspiring and beautiful photos on my phone, usually on instagram. I sometimes get sidetracked by political posts on there, sometimes researching if the post is true. The light doesn't seem to negatively affect me either. Sometimes I will look up LD material on my phone as well. It's a nice quiet time to myself.

I do it whenever I wake up naturally, trying to time it with drinking the right amount of water before bed so that I wake closer to 4.5 hours, but if it is closer to 6 hours I'll do it then (skipping any WBTBs if I am not feeling well). If it is much less than 4 hours or so, I just drink more water and go back to sleep. When I started out I would only do it on weekends when I could sleep in, but once I got to a point of getting to bed on time and getting back to sleep easily after WBTB, I began doing WBTB most nights. (I didn't last night as the wife was awake at the same time and she would be complaining to come back to bed.) This would only seem to work for you when you are not meeting up with Aaronoscar for the WBTB...I am guessing you use alarms for those times.

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## Patjunfa

Had a short WILd after last WBTB. Nice slow journey into sleep, v settled body, mind slowing, turning towards hypnogogia, drifting, timeless...short wild, strong energy pulsing. Pulled th curtains open but there were a fe layers of curtains so gave up, found myself floating down through the floor and downward without intent which was bit scary, became a FA after not long...in remaining sleep, had loads of wakes and loads of dreams, which gave the fun impression of a long long sleep. No sense of being able to carry lucid intent though...
Funny the layers of the curtains...like some resistance or something manifesting...also with the sinking through the floor...something else going on. Also not gat awareness in order to remind self it's an dream and could be just interested in it...

After couple of pints and not many hours sleep last night I tryed deild. Had a dream where I was trying deild and also a few wakes in which I thought of it but found myself moving rather than staying still...gave me the sense that it's worth playing with it some more.
Doesn't feel out of the dry spell yet but a little change in the weather...

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## fogelbise

Nice! Congratulations Patjunfa!





> After couple of pints and not many hours sleep last night I tryed deild. Had a dream where I was trying deild and also a few wakes in which I thought of it but found myself moving rather than staying still...gave me the sense that it's worth playing with it some more.
> Doesn't feel out of the dry spell yet but a little change in the weather...



Definitely worth playing with some more! A little change in the weather indeed!

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## Azaleaj

I just have to comment that in the last couple of weeks I too had a dream with multiple layers of curtains and a LD where I  sunk down through the bed and was then just there noticing the dust.

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## Patjunfa

Interesting Azaleaj, what did you make of it?
I kind of think of layers of curtains being like some form of resistance. I remember one time pealing back layers of a wall and th being loads of sharp knives sticking out. I put the layers back, thinking in the dream, that if there is this much protection ok, I'll leave it alone...I also think of what Holecek and others write about the practice of going through walls in LD. Shows the minds habitual tendency to raeify or believe things to be solid where they are unsubstantial...often if I get stuck, I remind myself that it is illusion and the wall is made of the same mater as the air....helps me realise a bit deeper and get past my mental barriers. Curtains are probably similar. Manifestation of some form of resistance that may prevent passage if we don't sink to deeper realisation...
With sinking through the floor...it's an odd one...I used to also fly without control and crash into things...might mean something but the reaction is at least equally important. One of my memorable LD experiences occurred with a v blissful transition during WiLD followed by out of control crashing into stuff...I could feel the start of a reaction thinking that this isn't good...I could feel how quickly this reaction becomes a lived experience as being some sort of "oh shit" negative event...but I had the insight that this is just a visual experience...the afterglow of the bliss wasn't too far away and so no longer reacting, I let myself crash about the place, after a bit the ðream changed corse. Really taught me how quickly our reactions and interpretations colour and make our experience. I still obviously react and get caught in it as with the last dream

Had a short DILD the other day after a WBTB. Went back to sleep with a fresh confidence, which has somewhat remained since first DILD in a while. rC'd in the dream, which failed but checked again and then lovely rush of realisation...had a growing sense of it not lasting as a LD, I called out various good stuff, intentions, asking for confidence to continue dream, but somehow I was feeding the belief of it ending and it did with me becoming aware of the duvet against my face and waking...odd how those negative expectations play out sometimes...should have stabilised with rubbing hands, body and various senses in hope that dream would anchor more...still...baby step forward again...hopefully have some good lucid action to report soon

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## fogelbise

> Had a short DILD the other day after a WBTB. Went back to sleep with a fresh confidence, which has somewhat remained since first DILD in a while. rC'd in the dream, which failed but checked again and then lovely rush of realisation...had a growing sense of it not lasting as a LD, I called out various good stuff, intentions, asking for confidence to continue dream, but somehow I was feeding the belief of it ending and it did with me becoming aware of the duvet against my face and waking...odd how those negative expectations play out sometimes...should have stabilised with rubbing hands, body and various senses in hope that dream would anchor more...



Congratulations on becoming lucid! 

I would recommend one of two paths for the concern about possibly feeding belief that the dream was ending. One is to try to forget about stabilization altogether and just focus on enjoying your lucid dreams. The other is to treat any stabilization techniques as something you just do as a matter of habit, thinking about "stabilization" as little as possible. You can rehearse either scenario during the day and it can be quite fun imagining that you are in a dream in various waking scenarios.

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## Patjunfa

tnks. that's generally how I approach stabilisation. it can be good as an initial focus to become grounded in the dream and channel attention away from sabotaging thoughts such as happened in that LD. was strange how those thoughts came as an unexpected wave which was hard to counter. that's why I wish I'd focused on something stabilising at that point..
done a number of good wbtb's over last week. not much effect. enjoying the wbtb though... bits of writing and/or music...
I've really wanted to try out the TOTM before the month is over as flying in space is an old goal. experience vastness of mind. also making yourself big enough to hold onto the moon. good skill building in those tasks...I found last couple of months TOTM gave me good learning's... don't know what's behind dry spells though...part of many lucid dreamers experience. why does it happen though?...can become a bit of a viscous cycle as Aaronoscar has pointed out before. harder to put enthuasism and confidence in when it feels like its been a while since last quality lucid...goina keep up wbtbs. somewhat negotiating early bed times with wife as were enjoying a Netflix series and bed time is only real time...also considering trying Galantamine again to break the dry spell. long time ago I used to find it good. last times trying it left me feeling seasick so haven't felt like it. may experiment with again as want to get back to lucid exploration...

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## Patjunfa

On WBTB at mo. Lovely clear night when clouds part, so have had a nice 3am wander. Such a nice time to be awake, looking around knowing a blanket of unconsciousness or dreaming covers all the houses nearby.

I was thinking, I woke at 3 as per my plan. I can wake myself pretty much at any time and as often as I plan during the night, generally, and without alarm. There's some ability to carry intention and awareness throughout the night...need to find my way of transferring this ability into effective LD practice...

Time to fit in with what my friends are doing and become unconscious. Subtle difference will be my awareness dancing consciously through internal states. TOTM, flying to a star (towards one anyway) getting nailed tonight!
Good luck to all dreamers out there

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## fogelbise

> On WBTB at mo. Lovely clear night when clouds part, so have had a nice 3am wander. Such a nice time to be awake, looking around knowing a blanket of unconsciousness or dreaming covers all the houses nearby.
> 
> I was thinking, I woke at 3 as per my plan. I can wake myself pretty much at any time and as often as I plan during the night, generally, and without alarm. There's some ability to carry intention and awareness throughout the night...need to find my way of transferring this ability into effective LD practice...
> 
> Time to fit in with what my friends are doing and become unconscious. Subtle difference will be my awareness dancing consciously through internal states. TOTM, flying to a star (towards one anyway) getting nailed tonight!
> Good luck to all dreamers out there



Loving this entire post!!

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## Patjunfa

no lucidity. had underlined obvious dream signs, went back to bed at 4. practiced SSILD. woke a bit startled that it was almost morning at 6.20 (usually after a wbtb, I'd wake a couple of times and have a sense of the passage of time). tryed for a WILD. didn't fully get to sleep but to a lovely rested inbetween space and got up in really good mind state at 7.15
the quest continues.

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## Patjunfa

Finally broke the dry spell! Decided to try Galantamine again to help. 

Started with a bit of a weird WILD. Body was plesently relaxted, loud roaring sounds. Noticed my heart was beating faster than usual. Hypnogogia for a good while but not solidifyingtried to lift out of bed, or rub hands in case I could move. Kind of can movenot quite able to get hands togetherfloating in the room, spinning without direction. Could make sea sick but is fine. Send thanks to the dream and dream world, feels better, still no control in dream, think to try and turn on the light, may make the room brighter, still cant control arms properly to touch switchturning round, try againnot quite. Find myself near window, bit more control and solidish-ok will go out-move out through windowstill semi around me-floating up around house-v green walls-can see hands more vividly- do a bit of Tai Chi then wake

Had spent a long time getting back to sleep and dream had felt quite light, so sense the Galantamine was having me too awake, so got up and took a tiny bit of melatonin. And after some good sleep and non lucids a lucid started

I a big room, cool music in background nice- Soundtrack!, look at hands, reminding self this is a dream-a friend appears, lots of boken (wooden swords) on ground-cool, we do some sword work, him with sword, me with knife, defending it, then with 2 knives, hes teaching me
Non lucid - A woman at the door of place Im staying in-become lucid, mmm, could have sex if I let that woman come inthen think, no better things I want to do with dream how will I get to Space? (as per dp)call out, walking in garden with others. A woman there crouches down, I climb onto her back, we jump up high, Ive fist raised, looking up-greyishafter a time I say I can see stars! lots of them..keep traveling, white dots all around. Think Im meant to describe solar system, becomes cool blueish with red orbs/lights. Find myself back in big house/manor (like as if its the next morning)-walk to window, quite high up (5 storys?)- musical intstruments around-say to a woman there, can I have a hug please?-feels like lovely contact-tender- say to another womanalso lovely hug- a number of women there, 2 huggingI walk out, considering next task but wake

Delighted to have a TOTM b4 end of month. Hope moving out of dry spell. Nice to have good experience with supplements. Wouldnt see myself using them often though

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## fogelbise

Congratulations Patjunfa! A WILD and a DILD later, very nice!

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## Patjunfa

DEILD success last night. Hope that gives me a new direction for play. didn't have too many hours sleep so just intended wake after dream, as happened. Reformed. played with DC, called out Shadow come to me. Charlie Morley, dressed as a devil was there, playing Piano. I sat behind and asked him to teach me something, showed me stuff on keys...Not massive but kinda cool n nice to be building confidence again, esp with relatively short hours sleep

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## fogelbise

Nice! Another DEILD! And Charlie Morley. 

DEILDs sound like something that could work for you well to regularly supplement your standard WILDs and your DILDs with additional focus towards them.

Congratulations!

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## Patjunfa

No lucidity the last while. Been doing some WBTB's with SSIlD and MIlD, but not as much as I'd like if really going for it. Watching a series on Netflix with my wife which competes for early nights. Sleep ins are a long distant memory. Been trying DEILD a bit. As I've mentioned before, I have a good ability to wake up whenever I want, often seeing the clock regularly through the night in an undisturbed sort of way. I've thought this could be a good ability to pair with DEIlD attempts. While it's worked sometimes for me, even on nights with not that many hours sleep, I feel I have a good bit to learn with it as a technique. When I set DEiLD intention, I commonly wake after a dream and impulsively stretch or turn over, making an easy transition more difficult. Yesterday during the day I was playing with the intention of noticing any impulses to stretch or change position, then wait a moment. At night I was setting the intention of noticing the impulse to stretch or change position, assuming this may come after a dream and sleep cycle. I noticed once, paused as per plan, was recalling the dream and then stretching impulse sneaked up on me and I was stretching b4 I knew it. 
I like it as an induction as it doesn't wake me up so much, that if there's noise around, I still get to sleep easily. Will keep playing with

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## fogelbise

> Been trying DEILD a bit. As I've mentioned before, I have a good ability to wake up whenever I want, often seeing the clock regularly through the night in an undisturbed sort of way. I've thought this could be a good ability to pair with DEIlD attempts. While it's worked sometimes for me, even on nights with not that many hours sleep, I feel I have a good bit to learn with it as a technique. When I set DEiLD intention, I commonly wake after a dream and impulsively stretch or turn over, making an easy transition more difficult. Yesterday during the day I was playing with the intention of noticing any impulses to stretch or change position, then wait a moment. At night I was setting the intention of noticing the impulse to stretch or change position, assuming this may come after a dream and sleep cycle. I noticed once, paused as per plan, was recalling the dream and then stretching impulse sneaked up on me and I was stretching b4 I knew it. 
> I like it as an induction as it doesn't wake me up so much, that if there's noise around, I still get to sleep easily. Will keep playing with



That day practice is a good idea to help remember to stay still when in the more foggy stage of brief awakenings. Opening the eyes to look at the clock is good for statistics, but it is better to keep your eyes closed when going for DEILDs...though it doesn't have to end your chancesso if you forget and do open your eyes, don't worry that you opened your eyes and just get back to trying to go back into the dream. That urge to stretch or adjust your position is often difficult to resist, so that is another situation where you might want to try to reach your mind back towards dreamland and away from your waking body, but if you must stretch - do so briefly and then reach again for dreamland. Some people like to imagine their head sinking deep into the pillow or their body sinking back into the bed.

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## Patjunfa

Been a while since posting. Still been a generally dry spell, with the effect that practice lost some momentum. It felt like the key was not working any more in the way I had become used to using it. What seemed like the same approach, method, mindset etc.I'd be curious to know what actually happens, why things work sometimes and with similar seeming conditions another time, nada... At a point I kinda choose then just record the night, build more curiosity and naturalness to sleep and dream life, which has been nice in some ways. Cultivating gratitude upon waking feels really nice. I don't ideally want lucid practice to build frustration and striving mindset. There seems such balance between setting intent and mindfully flowing with whatever happens or pulling back a bit if getting too tense. yet if not enough intent, then refocusing...
Had a nice short WILD last week. did a WBTB and then 61 point relaxation technique, which used to be a favourite. Lovely transition into sleep, v relaxed mind, energetic streamings as body seems to be floating upwards. Then a fairly short Lucid, with good awarness but not much direction. 
Rebuilding intent now. A bit of the momentum still not back enforce ie. reality checks arent as frequent as could be, and other aspects of confidence etc. 
Had nice lucid group meeting the other day. Having others to chat about lucidity is exciting. Also with Aaron back in Ireland, setting goals together really builds enthusiasm. 
Bonus TOTM looks v interesting. Make your Mind into a tower and explore different levels. Goina do this soon as I can.   Feels good to be back with intent.Thanks Fogelsbie for all your help so far.

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## fogelbise

> Been a while since posting. Still been a generally dry spell, with the effect that practice lost some momentum. It felt like the key was not working any more in the way I had become used to using it.



Continuing with the key analogy, usually a key works great but there are occasions where you may need to jiggle the key, oil the latch, replace the lock, or double check that we are using the original key for the lock. Sometimes we need to try something a little different and sometimes we need something quite a bit different to get back into our "groove." This is where good notes on what exactly you are doing during strong periods of lucidity comes in handy. Feel free to use this workbook to track what all you are doing at any given moment.





> What seemed like the same approach, method, mindset etc.



So it could be that you are forgetting some key parts of your approach, method and mindset or it could be that you just need to change up your approach a little to keep it fresh while giving yourself a chance to get back to regular LDs and get your confidence back. It is not uncommon for me to cycle through a number of different practices but always maintaining a core of some type of awareness work and WBTBs.





> At a point I kinda choose then just record the night, build more curiosity and naturalness to sleep and dream life, which has been nice in some ways. Cultivating gratitude upon waking feels really nice. I don't ideally want lucid practice to build frustration and striving mindset. There seems such balance between setting intent and mindfully flowing with whatever happens or pulling back a bit if getting too tense. yet if not enough intent, then refocusing...



This sounds like a good approach. I have seen the negative effect of trying too hard or stressing about trying to become lucid. We have these competitions on DV from time to time and people that know how to lucid dream sometimes have trouble during the competition and when they take a more "what will be will be" attitude while still putting in appropriate effort (or riding on the effort up until the point they decided to relax), they often break their little dry spells.





> Had a nice short WILD last week. did a WBTB and then 61 point relaxation technique, which used to be a favourite. Lovely transition into sleep, v relaxed mind, energetic streamings as body seems to be floating upwards. Then a fairly short Lucid, with good awarness but not much direction.



Congratulations! Pat yourself on the back for nice successes like this and even the little successes in between. Little successes can be things like "Good job!..I was quite mindful in that situation which allowed me to react more beneficially."





> Had nice lucid group meeting the other day. Having others to chat about lucidity is exciting. Also with Aaron back in Ireland, setting goals together really builds enthusiasm. 
> Bonus TOTM looks v interesting. Make your Mind into a tower and explore different levels. Goina do this soon as I can.   Feels good to be back with intent.Thanks Fogelsbie for all your help so far.



You're very welcome. I wish I had a magic bullet to pass you (closest thing I know to a magic bullet is WBTB) but I know that you can do it, you just have to find what actually works for you to get you back to regular lucidity. I do envy that you have a lucidity group and a friend that shares your interest in lucid dreaming that you can see on a regular basis.

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## Patjunfa

> I do envy that you have a lucidity group and a friend that shares your interest in lucid dreaming that you can see on a regular basis.



Defiantly fortunate in this regard. Asides from being able to chat about lucid stuff n share enthusiasm and reflections, its v nice on wbtb to have a friend. A bit like going for a run with a friend stops you backing out and being lazy. Other day myself and Aaron met on wbtb n went for lovely walk under clear stary night. Feels like a good USS of time on wbtb. Didn't result in lucidity but a couple of FA's n a DC talking about dreams. 
Nice to have a carryover from wbtb. Defiantly has an effect . 
with the FA's. I intend RC'ing on awakening and as soon as I see my family after wbtb. Yet a regular dream sign (as happened also on this night) is that one kids comes and wakes me early. I know I've had at least 1 LD where I've RC'd when this happens. Yet for the predictibility of this dream sign occurring after wbtb, its odd how I almost never become lucid with it...

[QUOTE]Feel free to use this workbook to track what all you are doing at any given moment./QUOTE]
Tnks.this workbook has been v useful so far. Keeping track of my efforts would b good to b clear on what efforts I am making and help focus more on what I am doing which is in my control, and less just on lucidity, which is less in my control


On wbtb at mo. Gives me time to post here. Back to bed now. 4.30 am. Tnks n here's hoping for a lovely lucid spell for everyone

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## fogelbise

Have you tried using MILD with visualization of both the kid waking you up early and then realizing that you are dreaming and doing the same MILD with visualization of seeing your family after WBTB?

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## Patjunfa

Yeh. Being familiar with it now I generally plan and visulise this and also RC when I see any of them in morning. Almost never actually get it tho...think its a fear of being disturbed after effort of slowly getting to sleep, as has actuay happened at times. Also sometimes I wake myself up to say hi, frustratingly...
Had a few short LDs over last while. 2 in 1 night, 1 of which spontaneous n v early on. Short n undramatic but nice. Did a bit of tai chi in one and met my old dog in another, visualised a lead and went running with him. enough to get me excited about being back in the lucid playground. Also familiar again with the feel of lucidity

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## fogelbise

Congrats on the LDs! It's good to see you around Patjunfa.  :smiley: 





> ...think its a fear of being disturbed after effort of slowly getting to sleep, as has actuay happened at times. Also sometimes I wake myself up to say hi, frustratingly...



I like to assume the sounds of family, or of just about anything, are HH's and many times it leads me quickly into a dream. I bet if family are really there that they wouldn't mind you continuing to snooze, they'd probably think you were just deep asleep…But, assume that it is just HHs and it keeps you in appropriate dreamy thoughts conducive to DEILDing or at least getting back to dreaming with a chance of a DILD especially considering that you were just thinking dreamy thoughts (those HHs!).

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## Patjunfa

hiya 
Consciously I assume and expect it as a HH, but mostly that doesn't filter through into expectations while in dreamland. Similar to how I have two regular dream signs of something martial arts related (I teach martial arts) and something sexual (I'm a bloke  :;-): ). Im fairly good at RC'ing in all these situations in waking life. sometimes I visualise them all as going back asleep. I'm sometimes unsure with MILD if I should visualise being lucid with just the last dream or with 1 or all current dream signs... sometimes this can feel a bit unfocused yet sometimes I feel like trying to cover all bases. hoping for an early night tonight and a wbtb. also entering summer season soon so will b more relaxed and hopefully more time for lucid dreaming

all the best

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## fogelbise

> sometimes I visualise them all as going back asleep. I'm sometimes unsure with MILD if I should visualise being lucid with just the last dream or with 1 or all current dream signs... sometimes this can feel a bit unfocused yet sometimes I feel like trying to cover all bases.



The last dream can be powerful if it is still vivid and fresh in your memory. I believe that anything that you can visualize vividly, while recreating a strong feeling of the moment of becoming lucid, will pay dividends.

All the best to you as well!

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## Patjunfa

Been a good while since I've posted.
I'd been on a dry spell. Hasn't properly let up to allow sustained periods of long quality lucids. However there have been some beautiful shorter lucids arriving

2 particularly nice one's
In one I call out 'can I kno what is beyond the sense of the passage of time'. My daughter in the dream says no, or not possible at this time. I call out may I experience non dual awareness, I start to float, looking downwards, my vision broadening beyond normal perspective...not sure do I become the air
In another lucid, I dissolve into light, a darkish purplish light, mind is very silent,absorbed in experience, I realise that this is always underneath experience...sense of Being consciousness underneath its contents...reflect that th experience is lasting, like a meditative experience in a LD. Goes on into a FA. Lovely afterglow from this. Plugging back into the sense of recognition  

I like the TOTM at the moment, entering a poster and also going back to witness my own birth. These are my current dream goals. Alongside just feeling confident in having regular lucid access again. Been a while since done good WBTB and RC's are a less frequent practice at the moment. Becomes somewhat self reinforcing. Good lucids motivate good practice which helps induction. Dry spells starve motivation so I don't put as much in to creating the conditions. Such a nebulous skill to develop. Very different to learning martial arts or music, which at some level you consistently get better at...now and August should still be good times of relaxed enough schedule. Still mostly doing MILD, occasional WILD efforts, some WBTB, RC's in day, sometimes visualising becoming lucid. Sometimes needing just to focus on recall to build this to enable practice. When on form I may wake a few times by intention and write some dreams. Fingers crossed for a nice lucid period and for ongoing skill development

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## Patjunfa

Not super habit over last week has been waking at about 3-4 with recall n writing setting intention and on subsequent wakings not wishing to write case I either wake my wife or find it hard to go back asleep. Holding onto a number of dreams in short term memory seems to overfill the bank and when I actually wake finally at about 8 these days I sometimes have no recall. Intention now is to write only a few words on subsequent wakings. For the sake of later recalls and also to become quicker at journaling.

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## fogelbise

It's good to see you back here and to hear about your lucids.  :smiley:  Yes, I don't think that it ever becomes "like riding a bike." Maybe for a select few naturals. I was listening to Daniel Love's youtube new "lucid minds" live stream and he mentioned after decades of practice, it still requires effort. I am sure Sageous would say the same thing as well as he talks about preparing for his WILD dives. It certainly still requires effort for me, but there is also such a thing as trying too hard in this endeavor.

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## Patjunfa

I watched Moana other night (great kids film). A line in it inspired me 'I choose to follow the furthest star'. Similar to how with LDing, it may take time and other endeavours at times bear fruit more readily, yet the exotic fruit of lucidity is worth holding out for. I know of many sleep and dream experiences I've had that have left me with experience and insight that I don't think I could have gotten by other means. So I know I'm committed for the journey, bearing through dry spells, knowing in many peoples experience (such as yours Foglsbie)access to lucidity can increase markedly as time goes on and proficiency develops, yet at times it doesn't seem so

had lovely lucid after film. was my birthday the next day so planned totm and watch my own birth. after a wbtb had nice wild, went into a room with a doctor who seemed lovely, I told him it was my birthday and about the totm, he disappeared off to get something and after waiting a while I realised he wasn't coming back, hospital seemed more like a dentist then.
the dream destabilised a few times and I waited and reformed it. Intending again the totm I flew up to a building in the air, an orchestra was playing, looked animated (reflected on excellent dream creativity), had lovely contact with some DC's and then tryed to merge 2 totm, saw some picture cards, intended seeing a picture of a hospital which I could try to enter, looked away a few times saying this is it, but just had different country scenes (wish I'd still tryed to enter scene). decided as I'd tryed a number of ways to give up on totm for mo
lota of other lovely bits to lucid tho. rubbing hands, v strong energy field, holding at 3 Dan tiens (navel, heart and 3rd eye), dreaming reforming one time only with sense of touch, I could feel my body as I stepped up from bed and as I stepped, yet no visual dreambody, nice hypnopompic awareness on waking also. 
was long enough with reforms that I felt I'd forgotten parts of it. helps generate confidence again and enthusiasm. regarding my intended dream goal, think it would have been good to ask the dream how I would get to see birth (has worked in past) or else tryed to go there through a door. 
hoping for early night tonight and last stab at totm

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## fogelbise

That sounds like a nice lucid dream, congratulations!  :smiley:  I agree with your sentiments on staying with it through the long approach, the journey!

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## Patjunfa

Hiya



Havent posted here in a year! Hoping to rebuild momentum with dream practices so would like to restart some entrys here. I found it a good support to write here before and found your advice very useful fogelbise. I’ve kept journaling and have had some lucids but no strong drive for a while.

My current aim will be to work with DILD’s and also interested in DEILD’s, as I think this is a method I should get to grips with, as I find it very easy to wake at specific times if I wish. A challenge in recent times has been if I wake close to morning. I find it easy to go to sleep in the earlier parts of the night but at times I wake an hour or so before the time I wish to get up and if I write dreams then I may find it hard to get back to sleep. If I don’t write something then I may have poor recall when I wake…Other aim is to get good at writing v brief dream notes rather than laborious ones. I’d also like to over the next couple of weeks, look at how I write notes and get more creative with how I log dream goals and dream signs etc…

Thanks a lot for holding this space
Will hopefully post progress on how I manage journaling and also hopefully some lucid adventures and explorations of various sleep states :-)

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## fogelbise

Great to see you back! I hope to see you here on a regular basis.

For DILDs you may find some inspiration here: https://www.dreamviews.com/attaining...-activity.html

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## Patjunfa

Thanks
been doing well at writing lots of shorter notes on dreams at intervals in the night, which feels like building that bridge. Would like to find good ways to work with journal during day as I tend to just scribe the dreams for the sake of recall and mostly leave the journal until the next night when I reread dreams, and write the intent for the night ahead...When i was more active with it I would at times underline dream signs and write them on the other page. At times I would try various dream interpretive methods but never found much sense with this. It would seem good to make better use of the journal and of what has been recalled. Also so that its not lucid or nothing...
Ive been better at RCíng during day and building good motivation and intent again. Also some awareness of HH on way to sleep which I like as a time to plant intent. Challenge of holding the balance of not waking self up with too much consciousness and yet bringing a bit of consciousness into what can feel like a quick plumet towards forgetfulness and unconsciousness...
Carrying postive expectations :-)

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## fogelbise

It sounds like you are on a good track and thinking about other things you could revisit. I only recommend adding more to your practices when it feels right since you don't want to overload yourself, which can lead to stopping practices altogether for a lot of people.

I definitely agree that HH stage is a great time to plant intent for those of us who can do it and continue the journey to sleep.

Sorry for the slow response. I've been on another trip.

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## Patjunfa

Still doing well on writing v short notes during the night which feels v useful for having a good sense of the night. Mostly I´m happy with having developed a stable sense of motivation again with dreaming, regardless of outcome. 
Had nice moment in sleep last night...some HH, I tried to see if I could influence it, and imagined a horse which I got onto and continued into a nice non lucid
v cool non lucid later...making a to do list, which included dream yoga and things towards enlightenment, asked myself when I will do these things and had a clear sense of now...enlightenment can only ever happen now as that is all there is. Then nice awareness of that timeless dimension. Good start to the day :-)
I know what you mean with overloading and the tasks have to actually meet with an an equal dose of genuine enthusiasm for them or else it can feel laborious and not nourishing anymore. I´m quite happy with how dreaming is at moment and the trajectory I feel that it is on. None the less I hope sometime to make what may be, better use of my dream journal...either as a tool for fostering more lucidity or as another way of enriching or guiding waking life...
will keep posting some updates ...

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## fogelbise

Very good! By the way, that dream about dream yoga and enlightenment sounded interesting and insightful. Looking forward to hearing more.  :smiley:

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## Patjunfa

Still ticking along. Had a couple of short not very noteworthy lucids but had a lovely night of practice last thur. Reminded me how much fun dream practice can be. Did a nice wbtb meeting up with a friend for walk under lovely starry sky. V slow back to sleep but hitting nice peaceful zones then had that gorgeous prewild energy space, then able to move my dream arms up through my body (Before I could move rest of dream body) and do some Qi Gong. Lovely strong energy sensations and sense of connection through my heart, to that which I could perceive as being the outside of me...Then. a nice lucid, not overly remarkable but still, moments where it became increasingly solid, started into but avoided the sex distraction and went for dream goal of trying to enter a friends dream and trying to find the message he has left for me in a box (in the waking world). Didn't succed but some nice transitions and interactions with DC's. Later in night lovely diping in and out (nonlucidly) into dreams. V nourishing stuff...Hope I find my way back to regular lucid access cause it can be such fun and a unique insight practice...

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## fogelbise

Congratulations on the lucids! I enjoyed reading the experience you had. Nourishing stuff indeed! 

I also envy your wbtb's with a friend under the starry sky. I love the stars, meteorites and have had some lucids triggered by seeing unusual things happening with stars.

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