# Off-Topic Discussion > Extended Discussion >  >  Why are drugs illegal?

## Pyrofan1

Now i can understand how drugs like Heroin, Cocaine and PCP are illegal. but why are marijuana, psilocybin mushrooms and LSD illegal? let's look at some of the arguments

Argument: They impair your judgment.
Response: Alcohol does the same

Argument: Tobacco and Alcohol have been part of our culture for a long time
Response: Marijuana and mushrooms have been part of other cultures for long periods of time. Does this mean that their culture is less important than ours? This does not apply to LSD though.

Argument: They are highly addictive.
Response: Most psychologists will say that they do not have much addictive potential and Nicotine is be very addictive.

Argument: They are very harmful
Response: Only one study has suggested that Marijuana causes lung cancer and other studies have shown that Marijuana smokers do not have higher lung cancer rates. There have not been any cases (that i know of) of people overdosing on Marijuana, LSD or mushrooms. While people have overdosed on alcohol and we all know that tobacco causes lung cancer. 

feel free to discuss/poke holes in my arguments.

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## Moonbeam

Prohibition obviously didn't work when it was tried for alcohol, and it doesn't work for drugs.  The reasons for the laws against drugs are much more complicated than just trying to get people not to use them.

There is a lot of money being made on both sides by keeping so many drugs in the black market.  It has nothing to do with what seems logical and what a free society should allow individuals to choose for themselves.

It's politics and money, therefore rational arguments are useless.

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## Daeva

I'm pretty certain people have died as a result of mushrooms and LCD and the addictive properties are more mental rather then physically, so while it is easier to stop smoking something like marijuana then, say, stopping doing cocaine, that doesn't mean it isn't a difficult process. 

Reading over that, I'm not sure if that last bit was very clear..

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## Pyrofan1

> It's politics and money, therefore rational arguments are useless



ah, that make perfect sense




> i'm pretty certain people have died as a result of mushrooms and LCD



i doubt that the LD50 for psilocybin is 280mg/kg which is like twice that of caffine and a usual recreational dose is 10-50mg and i don't think that there is a LD50 for LSD

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## Moonbeam

> ah, that make perfect sense



Not that they shouldn't be pointed out.  It may change someday, as more people stop and think about it, and get sick of all the people incarcerated for victimless crimes.

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## Pyrofan1

I think it's already changing. I know that in colorado you can legally have 1 gram of Marijuana.

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## Mystic7

Because they are a threat to your precious enslavement.





> I know that in colorado you can legally have 1 gram of Marijuana.



Fantastic. That doesn't help.

Drugs can be medicine. Don't be suprised if they ban the really good medicine. Then who would profit from sickness. No-one. See the idea of it. Diabolical.

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## Pyrofan1

> Fantastic. That doesn't help.



how so? an eighth is ~3.5 grams

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## Mystic7

You are allowed to grow a plant. Otherwise it's just tyranny. I don't care if you say your allowed a little bit of it. It only becomes widely useful when you grow crops of it and distribute evenly integrating into society.

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## Pyrofan1

> distribute evenly integrating into society.



i think that's already happened.

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## Mystic7

You think wrong. Prision is where you will go if you grow some. Police say so. _(to punish and enslave)_

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## Pyrofan1

> Prision is where you will go if you grow some.



only if you get caught

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## Mystic7

Exactly. That's the spirit. Take the law into your own hands. I highly recommend it. Just don't lose. Remember how many police and secret police and intelligence agencies and armies are against you. And don't lose.

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## Universal Mind

If you want to get yourself extremely frustrated and baffled out of your skull, argue with somebody who thinks marijuana should be illegal while alcohol should be legal.  The inconsistency in that stance is so enormous that it absolutely blows my mind that there are people out there who don't see it.  It is insane.  I have seen so many people out of control and very dangerous to themselves and others because of alcohol.  I have lost friends to alcohol.  People are dying of alcohol overdoses and drunk driving wrecks all over the world right this second.  But not one person in the history of the world has ever died of a marijuana overdose.  It is impossible.  Marijuana also makes people less likely to be violent, and it does not impair driving anywhere near as much as alcohol.  The inconsistency in the law is just ridiculous, and the fact that it remains really lowers my faith in humanity.  Not one person should ever have gone to jail for owning or selling marijuana.  It is sick.  

LSD and psilocybin are nondeadly and nonaddictive, so it is baffling that they are illegal.  Those are drugs that don't even work well when you do them a second day in a row.  There is no good argument that they should be illegal while alcohol should be legal.  

I think there are a bunch of reasons for the illegality of nonlethal psychedelic drugs.  There were corrupt reasons for their illegality, and further corruption of different kinds and large scale ignorance have kept them illegal.  Marijuana was made illegal because it was popular among Mexican Americans and the government thought making marijuana illegal would slow down Mexican immigration and encourage Mexicans to leave the U.S. in large numbers.  LSD was made illegal because it was associated with the hippies of the Vietnam War era, and conservatives despised the hippies.  I'm not sure about the other psychedelics.  They remain illegal because older conservative people associate the drugs with hippies and laziness and in many cases with false idolization.  They see them as spiritual agents that are not Christian and therefore must be evil.  There is also a lot of ignorance about those drugs.  Most people who think LSD should be illegal probably couldn't tell you jack about it but are still convinced that it turns people into killers and that people can overdose on it.  One of my brother's school teachers once talked about how her house was robbed and figured that the guy who burglarized her house must have been on marijuana.  That type of ignorance does a lot to keep our drug laws the way they are.  Also, the alcohol industry makes a fortune off the fact that sometimes people drink just because they cannot find their usual drugs.  It is very common for pot smokers to run out of pot and not have access to another bag for a few days and use alcohol as a subsitute, unless they have access to LSD or mushrooms or something.  The alcohol executives know that, and they have a lot of money and influence.  I think organized crime probably has something to do with the fact that marijuana remains illegal since they know how to dominate an illegal market and because drugs cost so much more when they are illegal.  A lot of pharmaceutical companies were take a major dive if marijuana became illegal.  That includes companies that make medicine for nausea, body aches, insomnia, restlessness, glaucoma, and all kinds of other things.  Those companies have a great deal of money and lobby influence also.  

I think all of those factors come together and keep drugs illegal.  I hope it changes, but it is going to take a great deal of social disgust with the illegality of those drugs for that to happen.

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## Moonbeam

> The inconsistency in the law is just ridiculous, and the fact that it remains really lowers my faith in humanity. Not one person should ever have gone to jail for owning or selling marijuana. It is sick.



Same here.  

I hate to think about because I get mad about where my tax dollars are going.

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## Cyclic13

The "war on drugs" is just another way to appropriate money by taxing the people and get them to willingly part with their money so they can use it to research military technology. Did you know that stealth technology was initially engineered and perfected using the money from the war on drugs? Even though it was never used in a single mission that it was originally created for. That's why bloated secretive government sucks.

In 1989, the U.S. invaded Panama, supposedly to root out the dictator and international drug runner Manuel Noriega. President Bush portrayed Noriega as a brutal dictator and vowed to "end 21 years of dictatorship" by invading the country and arresting Noriega. Bush failed to mention that Noriega had been on the CIA payroll for 10 years-including the year 1976, when Bush headed up the CIA-collecting up to $100,000 annually.

The U.S. invasion of Panama, justified in part as a war on drugs, is only one example of U.S. hypocrisy when it comes to combating "narcoterrorism." Not only did key U.S. officials wine and dine Noriega throughout the 1970s and 1980s with full knowledge of his involvement in the drug trade, but Noriega's successor, Guillermo Endara-handpicked by the U.S.- was equally if not more involved in narcotics trafficking. In fact, Endara, as nearly all other senior government officials who were given Washington's stamp of approval, was head of a Panamanian bank known for laundering drug money.

Currently, the U.S. claims to be waging a "war on drugs" by funding the Colombian government, which is the third-largest recipient of U.S. aid. Yet a 1994 Amnesty International report showed that government-supported paramilitary groups, which have killed 20,000 people since 1986 - many of them human rights workers, union leaders, and heads of political organizations-are knee-deep in the drug trade. Many of the death squad leaders responsible for atrocities in Columbia were trained at the SOA. More than 10,000 Colombian military personnel have been trained at the SOA-more than any other country.


Oh, Ron Paul is against the war on drugs  ::D:

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## Mystic7

> Not one person should ever have gone to jail for owning or selling marijuana. It is sick.



Indeed.

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## Cyclic13

The propaganda has spread far and wide, too.

Here in the island country of Japan, most are so ignorant to marijuana that I've been asked many times if it's an injection drug like heroin. LOLZ.

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## Pyrofan1

I agree, i remember my health teacher saying once that there are no such things as natural drugs. she said that all drug are synthesized from toxic chemical which they don't remove from the finished product. and when i brought up things like mushrooms, marijuana and peyote she said i was just flat out lying.

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## Mystic7

The 'health teacher'' lol. Lets all trust the health teacher.

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## LucidFlanders

What about DMT? or any of that strong hillusination types.

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## Michael

If you do drugs, you will become addicted. Then you will steal from other people for drug money. Finally, you will either kill someone, be killed, or end up in prison. This happens every single time someone does drugs. Nobody escapes from drugs, unless you absolutely never try them. That's why they are illegal, DUH!!!

But alcohol is good. It only kills more people than every other drug combined (besides lung cancer from cigs... if you want to count that), and is physically more addicting than anything else besides heroin.

So don't do drugs, only alcohol. But you have to wait till you're 21!... Because 21 is the magic age where you are automatically mature enough to drink it. If you are under 21 when you drink it, you will die.

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## Universal Mind

> What about DMT? or any of that strong hillusination types.



DMT is in your body right now.  It is a neurotransmitter produced by the pineal gland.  We all have it in our bodies.  Lock up everybody!  

I'm glad you mentioned DMT.  That is a drug that is not deadly, when people are on it they would not even consider trying to go anywhere and wouldn't be able to if they did, and the idea of somebody being addicted to DMT is just hilarious.  I would love to see somebody argue why DMT should be illegal.

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## Kromoh

The law sucks. Legalise drugs and you'll break an enormous vicious cycle in which most people who made those laws get money.

Drugs have no reason to be completely banished. But I don't think they should be used in public, either (just like cigarretes). Alcohol is a bit different though.

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## LucidFlanders

> DMT is in your body right now.  It is a neurotransmitter produced by the pineal gland.  We all have it in our bodies.  Lock up everybody!  
> 
> I'm glad you mentioned DMT.  That is a drug that is not deadly, when people are on it they would not even consider trying to go anywhere and wouldn't be able to if they did, and the idea of somebody being addicted to DMT is just hilarious.  I would love to see somebody argue why DMT should be illegal.



I find it hilarious that it's one of the most illegal substances known to man, yet we have it in our brains creating our dreams. Police should lock the world up for breaking the law every night. Hell, not only do humans have it, but it's in every eco system. WHO THE HELL MAKES THESE LAWS? they break them everytime they sleep. I'm not gonna say sure, go do drugs. I wont do drugs, my moms a bum on the street with aids, and into needles, booze, lieing, pan handling etc. i don't wanna turn out like her, but damn some of the drug laws are insane. INSANE I TELL YA! weed is one of the most harmless drugs, isn't it? yet illegal, and not even addictive, nor able to kill you from overdosing. Just relaxes you i hear, tried it once. Maybe they made those hillusination drugs illegal because the images and how strong they are? i mean you aint going to go "AHHH" in your head from smoking weed, or marijuana.

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## Howie

WOwo..
Actually discussing a "bigger" issue. ( although on a quantum level a golf ball's molecules may be able to be manipulated as such to ..eeh never mind.  :wink2:  )





> Unfortunately, this country has become so dependent on having the government nanny its' citizens, that parents are depending on laws and legislation to 'protect' their kids - rather than do this thing that most middle-aged and older folk remember as "parenting."



Very well put.  It should be ap_parent_ to all of us.  :tongue2: 
So Joe you see this lack of parenting coupled with the fact that more and more dangers surface daily. 
It IS not the government's role to handle this, parents are not, Who should?

I feel many people argue blind about many civil liberties. It is the nature of us having them. The risk of them being taken away often results in that. The same would be for me and gun rights. I however recognize problematic issues. Many are simply not pertinent to the actual issue. That is what the anti drug, gun, abortion advocate wishes. To pick up where the weaknesses stem, like salvia for example or high cap magazines. Not really the issue. But it gets the "ANIT's" foot in the door.

So what then of a real threat? When is something determined as such? 
Does salvia lead to harder drugs? is it used irresponsably? Is it harmful? It seems not enough to justify a felony does it. 
Is it rhetorical questions or a substantial questions?  Are we better off with drugs? With guns? If not now, when? Ever?
Should a preemptive process ever be an issue or should the issue result in the process, or should it still not because it is our god given right? 
By process I mean legislative action.

~thoughts? 

----------------------------------------



Never does a man think he is more right than when he is engaged in a debate. Never does a man need to question his own motives more when debate turns to quarrel.

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## Universal Mind

> WOwo..
> Actually discussing a "bigger" issue. ( although on a quantum level a golf ball's molecules may be able to be manipulated as such to ..eeh never mind.  )



You know I used a lot of analogies.  I discussed the dangers of recreational driving, skateboarding, hang gliding, roller blading, and other things you think should be legal.  I used that perspective to try to get you to understand/admit why salvia should similarly be legal.  I focussed mainly on golf because it served the same analogical purpose as the other activities I kept mentioning.  I couldn't get you to go very far.  You kept focussing on an element (impairment) that is often associated with danger, yet you would not EVER translate that into how the element makes salvia more dangerous than those other activities, ones you think should be legal.  You have a double standard, and your double standard is the same as the one those state legislators have.  I know you get that by now.  You have been in checkmate for a while, but if you want to try again, you can start by responding to those points I posted repeatedly and you kept dodging.  If you are not going to do that, then don't waste my time by communicating to me directly or indirectly about this subject.





> *My stance on #1*
> _"People who know the basics..."_ - yes, I would think that's usually the case. Being new to Salvia I took a ridiculously amount of precautions when first trying it. So far it's not as bad as I thought it would be, but I consider myself still 'unexperienced' with it.
> 
> _"unless they are like those kids in the video..."_ (forget the damn golf ball for a minute) Let's just say kids that don't know the basics and misuse it (i.e at a party, with alcohol, or as a substitute for marijuana). The undisputed fact is that these kids ARE a threat to themselves and likely those around them. Now, is Salvia the root of the problem? Only in the same extent as a bullet is to a gun in the hands of a person who doesn't respect or understand the dangers of a loaded gun. A bullet by itself is pretty useless - as is an empty gun.
> 
> Unfortunately, this country has become so dependent on having the government nanny its' citizens, that parents are depending on laws and legislation to 'protect' their kids - rather than do this thing that most middle-aged and older folk remember as "parenting".
> 
> Education about these drugs would be the most potent and effective solution IMO.



Yes, education would do the trick, and so would just putting a short warning label on the packages.  So would putting a little pamphlet in the packages.  Banning it will do what it does with the other drugs.  It will guarantee that warning labels and pamphlets do not come with the packages, and a lot of kids will get their hands on it and have no idea what they are doing.  Extra ingredients which may or may not be dangerous can easily get mixed in with the salvia, and people will be in legal trouble for getting caught with it.  As it is in several states, possession is a felony, which means people can go to prison for it and be in all kinds of danger.  People get hurt in prison. 

Keep in mind that nobody in this thread has come up with a case of where salvia actually got somebody hurt or killed.  No jumping out of windows, no wrecking cars because they saw a demon, no walking into traffic, no out of the ordinary whims to jump on a roof with a pogo stick leading to a broken neck, nothing.  But golf on the other hand... 





> *My stance on #2*
> I don't play golf.







> *My stance on #3*
> See stance on #2.



You don't have to play golf to understand the analogy.  The analogy proves double standard.  It would have worked the same way if I had used recreational driving, hang gliding, skateboarding, and other activities pretty much nobody wants to ban.  Recreational driving is probably the analogy I should have used because it results in a whole lot more death than golf does.  Who wants to ban it?  





> So, you got a depressed kid who killed himself. Parent wouldn't dare blame herself for not helping her son, so why not a substance which he used. Could have just as easily been a bottle of Jack, or a case of Heineken. You'd never see a law passed to ban those.



If you are talking about the guy who inspired the passing of salvia bans, I think that is basically what happened.  The mother would not accept that her son killed himself because he was drunk and depressed.  She had to use some rarely known hallucinogen to blame everything on.  The parents of people who commit suicide experience what is probably the worst pain possible.  It is an awful situation.  In my experience, they have an excuse or alternate explanation to run with in every case.  In this case, it is salvia.  





> 13 year-old + shotgun! Parenting?



Getting that kid to understand the gun that was in the house would have made the difference.  Blaming the situation on salvia is outlandish.

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## Tornado Joe

> Yes, education would do the trick, and so would just putting a short warning label on the packages.



Well, really that's mainly to cover the seller's ass from lawsuits and such. But, I think putting the label on the package requires it to go through the FDA, DEA and whatever other "A's" out there whom would be relevant to it's continued (in most cases so far) legal status. Good luck with that.  ::?:

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## Howie

Yes impairment. Impairment/not impaired - action = big difference.

Salvia already comes with pamphlets; and more warnings than a ladder, Or at least the stuff I have scene. 
What you seek is a win Universal, that is all.
You know deep down that your Recreational analogy will not hold up when push comes to shove. It does not hold up here and it would not stand in a court.
So I would revise your end game strategy friend.

Until you can stifle those stories and clips that horrify parents, kids flailing around in "another dimension" then you will loose. Tell me what else kills people. it's moot.

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## Universal Mind

> Yes impairment. Impairment/not impaired - action = big difference.
> 
> Salvia already comes with pamphlets; and more warnings than a ladder, Or at least the stuff I have scene. 
> What you seek is a win Universal, that is all.
> You know deep down that your Recreational analogy will not hold up when push comes to shove. It does not hold up here and it would not stand in a court.
> So I would revise your end game strategy friend.
> 
> Until you can stifle those stories and clips that horrify parents, kids flailing around in "another dimension" then you will loose. Tell me what else kills people. it's moot.



Another dodge.  Congratulations.   ::breakitdown::   Maybe you can post fifty more such empty posts and pretend they amount to anything more than dodgy assertion.  





> There are a few major points of mine that I think are most relevant and that you keep ignoring. You need to respond to them if your goal is to get me to understand your side better.
> 
> 1. People who know the basics of what salvia does do nothing on it but sit there and lie there, unless they are like those kids in the video in which one of them deliberately hit a golf ball into the other one. Because of that, salvia will never be a significant threat to society. 
> 
> 2. Impaired judgment alone should not be a deciding factor regarding how dangerous a drug or other activity is considered. Tragedy which that impairment results in is what is relevant. Salvia has not been causing tragedy _in reality_. Golf has. 
> 
> 3. A flying golf ball has a complete inability to use judgment at all. That is why they have killed people. Adding the element of a flying golf ball makes situations more dangerous. Danger is what is relevant to this conversation. Impairment is only relevant to the extent that it results in danger. Golf has shown to be more dangerous than salvia in reality.



Come on, Howie.  What are you afraid of?

Should the law require that driving automobiles be limited to necessary business and needs fulfillment?  In other words, should recreational driving be banned?

http://www.safecarguide.com/exp/stat...statistics.htm

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## Cyclic13

Noam Chomsky on Marijuana

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