# Lucid Dreaming > Dream Control >  >  Advanced Vision Control Tutorial

## Mylynes

*Advanced Vision Control*
I wasn't sure exactly where to put this so if it needs to be moved feel free to move it to where it needs to go. The goal of this tutorial is to enhance the amount of control a lucid dreamer has over his/her senses both while dreaming and also while awake.

Ok I would like to start by saying that almost everything I have learned about controlling my senses has been learned from personal experimenting on my own. Because of this I do not have near as many terms for things as I will after being on this site for a while but I will do my best to explain things in a way that can be understood.

This technique when mastered allows you to have complete control over all of your senses while either dreaming or awake. I believe that practicing this technique while awake will carry over and allow you better control while dreaming if you are already able to become lucid. This technique is my own personal way of manipulating my senses that has been slowly developed over a period of around 15 years. I will include information on all of the senses at some point but for now I will focus on sight because after getting good at controlling what you see the rest should fall into place fairly easily.

*The Technique*
The technique is simple enough. Basically what you are doing is directly overiding the images your brain sees. This is easiest to do while dreaming because your eyes are not picking up any light. While awake the less your real eyes see the easier it is to cause yourself to see whatever you want to see. With a bit of practice you can easily trick your brain into seeing something that is not there. I am also not talking about mere visualization which allows you to see images within your minds eye but instead any images you create should be seen as if they were actually there. One thing I would like to warn you about is after you are able to consciously exert control over your senses you may have issues with your subconscious creating things on its own. At a certain point these subconscious hallucinations could end up being a very bad thing. Ever heard of schizophrenia? Most likely the worst won't happen just be aware that if you practice this method of control it may open a door for your subconscious mind to create objects or entities that while real to you may not actually exist.


*While Awake*

*Step One - See The Canvas*
When you first start practicing I suggest trying either in a dark room with your eyes closed or wearing a blindfold. Make sure that your eyes are not picking up a lot of light. What do you see? Really pay hard attention to what you see. You should see very small dots that may look something like static or small pixels on a computer screen. Do you see any colors or movement? I see these all the time. The few people I have taught this technique to reported not noticing anything at first but then upon further inspection they were all able to see what I am talking about. My theory is that anyone can see this but most people will automatically tone it out and not notice it.

If you can't see anything then try closing your eyes, placing your palms against your eyelids and exert a small amount of pressure. You should see a lot of movement and colors even though your eyes are shut and there is no light to pick up. Try to recreate the same effect without exerting pressure on your eyes. You should probably try doing this at least one time but do not do it regularly. Your goal is to reproduce the strange visuals you get from putting a small amount of force on your eyes but without having to touch your eyes. After you get this down I would not suggest putting too much or for too long the pressure against the eyes because that may be bad for your eyes. You just need to learn to create the same things that caused you to see by using your mind.

*Step Two - Paint With Your Mind*
After you have managed to see the static each of these small particles can each be manipulated by your mind. This is the first and hardest step to using this form of sight manipulation. It is also the hardest to explain. It's similar to training a muscle that you have never really controlled before. Try turning them into a certain color or bringing them together to form simple shapes. You may not have much luck at first but if you keep trying you should get better.

You can use visualization to help but the object here is not to merely see an image in your mind. If done correctly with little to no light interfering you should be actually seeing an image. Try looking at an image on your computer screen. Stare at it for about 10 seconds then quickly close your eyes and observe what you see. You should be able to see the image for a while before it gradually fades away. If my technique is done correctly then you should be able to form images completely on your own that should look similar to what you just saw with the picture. At first the images you produce may be very hard to create and may be a bit blurry but you will become better as you practice. To use visualization as an aid, first picture any image in your mind and hold it there. This image can be used as a blueprint to fill in the actual image you want to create. Try to create those particle things I talked about and then color and shape them to match the image. If you are getting better at this then by holding the blueprint in your mind you should be able to fill it in easily by just allowing the pixels to kind of get sucked into the image making it solid.

If you are having trouble getting it do what you want keep this in mind. Telling yourself you know a group of particles are blue and in the shape of a circle won't work. You need to find out how to directly manipulate them. You have to manipulate them simply by doing it. It's like lifting your arm. You don't look at your arm and ask it to move.. you just move it without thinking too much into it. My technique should be done about the same way.

After you get the basics down try forming more complex images. Try forming images that move. Just experiment with it and try to give the images overall better quality.

*Step Three - Expanding Your Canvas*
If you think you have the skill down pretty well and you can create more complex images without light interfering then start trying to do the same exercises but gradually add in more light. Start off in a dimly lit room with your eyes open. When you paint an image into the air that you can see, you should also be able to see the dimly lit room at the same time. While you see both at the same time you can work on the ability to focus on only one imput.. Your imput. Solidify the image in your mind until you can only barely see the room you are in. Then slowly bring the real world imput back up until you can see the room again. Doing this regularly will increase your control.


*While Dreaming*
After you get better at your control while awake you can try bringing it into your lucid dreams. While in a dream using this method you can fairly easily control everything that you sense. While your eyes are open you can modify whatever you are currently seeing just by using the technique described above kind of like when Neo from the matrix started getting good at his powers. I'm talking about things like the scene where he was jumping into people and making walls bend and such.

For another way to apply this to a dream you can swiftly change anything in the environment or even everything in the environment merely by closing your eyes, creating a blueprint in your mind, and then solidifying the image using the technique. Open your eyes to find yourself looking at whatever changes you wanted to make. With some practice you should be able to do this instantly. The only thing that should take some time is deciding what exactly you want to do. For me I usually skip the eye closing part I just constantly manipulate all of my senses to have the dream I want. I still use a blueprint on occasion though when it comes to creating more advanced objects. Like maybe I will practice splitting my focus and create as many chess boards as I can floating in the air. I would also create enough people to have as opponents and I will give them each a slightly different play style.

After the game starts keeping up with where all of the pieces are can really start to hurt your brain but the more you push yourself the better you will get. The craziest I got with that exercise while managing to not forget positioning of the pieces at all was when I played against 30 opponents at the same time. To get to where you can do that all you have to do is start low maybe play against a single opponent for a while and then add just 1 opponent. When you get to where you can handle the current number of opponents add another opponent and just keep repeating.


*Ending Notes*
I have much more advanced techniques I can get into including info on the other senses but for now this is the basics of this advanced vision control tutorial and should be all you need to get started as well as all you need to start expanding your mental abilities. The exercises should help get you to where you will be able to handle a second much more advanced tutorial. Feel free to ask any questions and I will attempt to answer them as best as I can. Any comments are also welcome.
For questions and comments ect either just reply to this thread or send me a pm. I have my email on my phone so anytime someone posts on one of my threads it gets emailed to me and sent to my phone so I can probably get to your questions soon even if I'm not online.

I hope that the information I will be giving on this site will be useful to someone.

-Written By
-Mylynes


Edited on---------------------------------------------------------------------
I am going to start something similar to a class where people who want to get seriously into this can contact me at any time. If you would like to join and be a part of this group just join the thread I created for the group here: 
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...87#post1132587

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## reci

What do you have to say about the other senses?  I read that you might continue this tutorial to include such.  

I can reproduce 'information' that any of my senses sensed and recreate it so it acts on its own.  I don't control it consciously.  It just moves or sounds on its own.  Songs, noises, people, smells, tastes, textures.

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## Mylynes

> What do you have to say about the other senses?  I read that you might continue this tutorial to include such.  
> 
> I can reproduce 'information' that any of my senses sensed and recreate it so it acts on its own.  I don't control it consciously.  It just moves or sounds on its own.  Songs, noises, people, smells, tastes, textures.



It would take me a while to write tutorials but yes I do plan on writing them. But would think the easiest way to learn would be to for now focus on the information and exercises that I have posted. Work on controlling your sight first because after you get good with your site it makes things a lot easier when it comes to learning how to manipulate all of the senses.

You see I have much much more to teach and instead of having a really long tutorial with everything for those who want to get into my techniques you need to learn certain things in a certain order to learn in the fastest way possible. I think I'm going to make a practice thread where people who really want to learn how to do this can join and be able to receive help along the way from me as needed.

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## Robot_Butler

> If you are having trouble getting it do what you want keep this in mind. Telling yourself you know a group of particles are blue and in the shape of a circle won't work. You need to find out how to directly manipulate them. You have to manipulate them simply by doing it. It's like lifting your arm. You don't look at your arm and ask it to move.. you just move it without thinking too much into it. My technique should be done about the same way.



Telling yourself (even out loud) might actually help you start to see the image.  In Image Streaming, you create a feedback loop by speaking out loud the things you want to see.  Seeing it, saying it, and hearing it all at the same time help reinforce the realism of the scene, jump starting your visualization.  Of course, Image Streaming is fundamentally different from what you are talking about (you are still using your mind's eye), but the same principals should apply.

I've actually had some experience with what you are talking about.  Have you tried using a Ganzfeld device?  Even a simple one made from ping pong balls would work.

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## Mylynes

> Telling yourself (even out loud) might actually help you start to see the image.  In Image Streaming, you create a feedback loop by speaking out loud the things you want to see.  Seeing it, saying it, and hearing it all at the same time help reinforce the realism of the scene, jump starting your visualization.  Of course, Image Streaming is fundamentally different from what you are talking about (you are still using your mind's eye), but the same principals should apply.
> 
> I've actually had some experience with what you are talking about.  Have you tried using a Ganzfeld device?  Even a simple one made from ping pong balls would work.



This technique is not quite what you think it is. Telling yourself something is there can make it appear with visualization but with this form of control visualization isn't even needed and just telling yourself and trying to believe it's there will do you no good because this involves creating a real image by manipulating the system that allows you to see real objects. Its hard to explain this very well but its almost like training a muscle that you have not been accustomed to using. If I want to lift my arm no amount of visualization or trying to make yourself believe it is moving will move it for me. A signal has to be sent from the brain to actually move the muscles in my arm. This technique works the same way as sending the message to move my arm. You have to get your brain to create a real object. Real.. although it will only be real to you as nobody else will be able to see your creation.

Right now my eyes see everything in this room including this screen. Lets say I don't like my monitors color. It's just a normal black flatscreen monitor. Now after using my technique my monitor actually looks pink. I could leave my room come back and it would still be pink. If someone else comes in and I ask what color it is they will say black but i'm looking at a pink monitor right now.

To do that I manipulated my sight to see what I want to see. Someone just tapped me on the shoulder then hissed at me.. and now nobody is behind me. Nobody ever was behind me. I actually create all of these sensations and they look and feel REAL. I can summon a guy in my room and tell him to punch me in the face.. and it would really hurt if he did. This is not the dreaming world. This is what I have turned my own reality into. A mix of the two. After many years of playing around with this kind of stuff.

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## The Cusp

I agree vision is an important part of dream control.  If you're interested, I wrote a short piece on it as well.  http://dreamviews.com/community/show...&postcount=159
Could have sworn I wrote a second part to that, and advanced version, but I can't find it.

And you have to check out this vid about visual representation systems.



But what is this doing in beyond dreaming?

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## Mylynes

> I agree vision is an important part of dream control.  If you're interested, I wrote a short piece on it as well.  http://dreamviews.com/community/show...&postcount=159
> Could have sworn I wrote a second part to that, and advanced version, but I can't find it.
> 
> And you have to check out this vid about visual representation systems.
> 
> 
> 
> But what is this doing in beyond dreaming?



Really this is far beyond just dream control. You practice while awake and it is meant to be used while being awake but can lead to new ways of easily controlling your dream. After I add in the other senses this will be a tutorial on how to manipulate all of your senses directly.

But yes this is going to be moved to the research area so it shouldn't be here long. I personally thought it fit here because this is mostly not about dreaming but the research place sounds better.

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## The Cusp

> Really this is far beyond just dream control. You practice while awake and it is meant to be used while being awake but can lead to new ways of easily controlling your dream.



You're preaching to the choir dude.  I've been blabbering for over a year now about how dream control techniques apply to real life.

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## Mylynes

> You're preaching to the choir dude.  I've been blabbering for over a year now about how dream control techniques apply to real life.



lol that was me pointing out why it would fit in beyond dreaming
Video looks interesting too. I'm kind of busy right now but i'll check it all out later.

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## Mariano

but, in Real Life, for what I can use this technique?

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## SpaceTime

How did you learn of this technique?

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## Mylynes

> but, in Real Life, for what I can use this technique?



This technique when mastered allows you to have complete control over all of your senses while either dreaming or awake. You basically override the input from your real senses and insert what you want to sense.





> How did you learn of this technique?



Taken from second paragraph: "Ok I would like to start by saying that almost everything I have learned about controlling my senses has been learned from personal experimenting on my own."

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## SpaceTime

How is it beneficial?

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## Mylynes

> How is it beneficial?



This tutorial in itself is not very beneficial however it is a stepping stone to becoming godlike in the dream world. In your dreams can you add another eye to your body and connect to it so that you actually receive a third visual input? What about adding input from a few thousand eyes while maintaining image quality? When you dream do you breathe? Why or why not? is having a human body really that important? Your body can be anything you want. Your body could be an entire planet that is connected to the senses of multiple species. You can tap into the sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell senses and more from billions of entities simultaneously while still preserving crystal clear quality.

Even then all of that is just easy stuff. It surprises even me how far you can push the mind when you constantly work on removing limitations.

So is it beneficial? If you are really into controlling your dreams and if you work hard at it for long enough then I think it would be beneficial. If you dont really care about extremely advanced dream control then you can still take the manipulation skills as far as you want. It goes from very basic to extremely advanced pretty rapidly and I do not know of any boundaries other than the ones you allow yourself to be controlled by and learn through this manipulation system to tear down. But yea if your not really into dream control there is a lot that can be done with your mind while awake.

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## Mariano

I see one benefit from it.
when you go to sleep, create a red point, or something in your closed eyes, and see it clearly.
watch it until you fall asleep....so: WILD

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## Robot_Butler

> This technique is not quite what you think it is. Telling yourself something is there can make it appear with visualization but with this form of control visualization isn't even needed and just telling yourself and trying to believe it's there will do you no good because this involves creating a real image by manipulating the system that allows you to see real objects. Its hard to explain this very well but its almost like training a muscle that you have not been accustomed to using. If I want to lift my arm no amount of visualization or trying to make yourself believe it is moving will move it for me. A signal has to be sent from the brain to actually move the muscles in my arm. This technique works the same way as sending the message to move my arm. You have to get your brain to create a real object. Real.. although it will only be real to you as nobody else will be able to see your creation.
> 
> Right now my eyes see everything in this room including this screen. Lets say I don't like my monitors color. It's just a normal black flatscreen monitor. Now after using my technique my monitor actually looks pink. I could leave my room come back and it would still be pink. If someone else comes in and I ask what color it is they will say black but i'm looking at a pink monitor right now.
> 
> To do that I manipulated my sight to see what I want to see. Someone just tapped me on the shoulder then hissed at me.. and now nobody is behind me. Nobody ever was behind me. I actually create all of these sensations and they look and feel REAL. I can summon a guy in my room and tell him to punch me in the face.. and it would really hurt if he did. This is not the dreaming world. This is what I have turned my own reality into. A mix of the two. After many years of playing around with this kind of stuff.



That sounds like a visualization/ self induced hallucination, to me.  You should look into other kinds of self induced hallucination, like the ones I mentioned.  I think they might compliment your method well.  At the least, they will give you a better first hand understanding of how your mind interacts with your senses.

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## Mylynes

> That sounds like a visualization/ self induced hallucination, to me.  You should look into other kinds of self induced hallucination, like the ones I mentioned.  I think they might compliment your method well.  At the least, they will give you a better first hand understanding of how your mind interacts with your senses.



Okay I will look into it. I think self induced hallucination would be a very good way to describe what this technique is.

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## Syruplord

This sounds really interesting I'm going to give it a try.
So Mylynes, how much control would you say you have in real life? Can you really make your monitor turn pink? What if you start moving around does it change colors? What about other black objects next to the monitor? I'm curious about the level of preciseness this can create

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## Mylynes

> This sounds really interesting I'm going to give it a try.
> So Mylynes, how much control would you say you have in real life? Can you really make your monitor turn pink? What if you start moving around does it change colors? What about other black objects next to the monitor? I'm curious about the level of preciseness this can create



I can do this just as easily awake as I can while dreaming even in a well lit room. By creating the images I want to see I can basically paste them over what I would normally be seeing. I can pick out bits and pieces to modify or I can pretty much cut myself off from the world around me by overriding all of my senses. Doing this I could go to a place of my own creation that would be similar to having a very vivid lucid dream.

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## Mariano

what?
wow...
so, it's like you can have lucid dreams everytime you want..
well that's good
if that's true
congratulations for the efforts

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## Ceonsamea

I'm interested in this. 

I'm going to give it a try, it sounds pretty awesome, but I will probbably take this slow. 
Anyhow, make sure to keep us updated if/when you make any more tutorials!  :wink2:

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## Syruplord

Man this is frustratingly hard. I can't even really see the canvas. I am having a problem with my eyes that I had when I tried the lucid dreaming audio series from hemisync, where my eyes start getting all jittery and moving around, and my eyelids slowly open. When I close my eyes, they don't feel shut unless I do it really hard and my eyes kind of roll back, and it's super dark and I see no patterns whatsoever, just black.

Does this have to be done with eyes closed to start out? I was seeing a few white patterns when my eyes were partially opened, but I think it was my eyelashes, even though it was pitch black in my room. Man this is gonna be a long journey to the end

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## Mylynes

> Man this is frustratingly hard. I can't even really see the canvas. I am having a problem with my eyes that I had when I tried the lucid dreaming audio series from hemisync, where my eyes start getting all jittery and moving around, and my eyelids slowly open. When I close my eyes, they don't feel shut unless I do it really hard and my eyes kind of roll back, and it's super dark and I see no patterns whatsoever, just black.
> 
> Does this have to be done with eyes closed to start out? I was seeing a few white patterns when my eyes were partially opened, but I think it was my eyelashes, even though it was pitch black in my room. Man this is gonna be a long journey to the end



There isn't really any need to close your eyes you just need to be in a very dark place and or wear a good blindfold. It's just a matter of removing the light that your eyes pick up. I would suggest for you to start off with a blindfold. If you are having difficulty with seeing the canvas try gently pressing your palms into your closed eyes. This pretty much makes you see different colors but the idea of the training is to produce more refined images with your mind.

"it's super dark and I see no patterns whatsoever, just black."

You are not the first person I have known to claim that they can only see blackness. That is the purposed of the the palm thing. It seems like most people do see these small particles but hey have been tuned out for a long time. You have to focus in and notice the small static-like particles before you can start manipulation through this technique.

Good luck with your practice and feel free to ask any more questions.

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## Mylynes

> what?
> wow...
> so, it's like you can have lucid dreams everytime you want..
> well that's good
> if that's true
> congratulations for the efforts



It's similar to a lucid dream cept one of the biggest differences is that every part of your environment is created consciously.





> I'm interested in this. 
> 
> I'm going to give it a try, it sounds pretty awesome, but I will probbably take this slow. 
> Anyhow, make sure to keep us updated if/when you make any more tutorials!



I'll be posting the next tutorial as soon as someone ends up completing the first one.

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## Ceonsamea

> I'll be posting the next tutorial as soon as someone ends up completing the first one.



Ah ok, awesome.

I have a question. Can this technique be applied as a way to consciously block pain? 
Also, what level of concentration is needed to perform this, or does it all depend on the amount of practice and familiarity with the technique? Does a busy envionment make it more difficult to perform or does it have very little impact?

And another question, how long would you expect it to take to complete this tutorial, realising that it varies from person to person of course?

Thanks in advance.

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## doktorj

it is awesome to find someone else doing advanced lucidity (while conscious or not)...since usually when i try to explain my advanced techniques to others, either people don't understand or dont' believe...or they automatically just write me off as crazy.

i recently posted about my newly found programatic lucid approach here: http://dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=80267  have you ever done things like that? (see my second post half way down)

bow,
doktor J
http://www.doktorj.ca

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## Mylynes

> Ah ok, awesome.
> 
> I have a question. Can this technique be applied as a way to consciously block pain? 
> Also, what level of concentration is needed to perform this, or does it all depend on the amount of practice and familiarity with the technique? Does a busy envionment make it more difficult to perform or does it have very little impact?
> 
> And another question, how long would you expect it to take to complete this tutorial, realising that it varies from person to person of course?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Both the more familiar you are with the technique and your level of concentration are important. The practice to learn this technique will also increase your concentration. The way this works is you focus on increasing your own sensory input while simultaneosly decreasing your focus from the input from the real world. As long as the strength of the images is stronger and brighter than your normal visual imput you will be able to have controlled hallucinations. That is why the visual technique is best learned starting off in a dark room. A person then in practice works on increasing the amount of light they can manage to paste images over. The other senses work about the same way.

So yes you can do things such as block out pain. Just like the visual training you can train yourself to raise your own input over that of the feeling of the pain. When I first joined the navy and wasn't in the best condition we would be doing a lot of physical training and my body started really feeling the stress of overtraining because using this technique even though I would push through the pain and not feel much of it and keep pushing past the point where my body would go completely numb I would continue using the technique until the rest of the workout would be done. So even though I could not feel most of the pain my body still ended up getting damaged. By using this technique over your senses you can greatly increase your physical strength and endurance temporarily but would take a good bit of practice and if you push yourself too long or too hard you can really mess up your body.

I'm not really sure how long it will take for people to get through this tutorial. It took me around 15 years to get to where I am now but it only took me about a month to get one of my close friends pretty good with this technique. I don't know how long it would take a person to get to the level of control I have over my senses with this technique but I know it would take a lot less time than it took me.

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## Mylynes

> it is awesome to find someone else doing advanced lucidity (while conscious or not)...since usually when i try to explain my advanced techniques to others, either people don't understand or dont' believe...or they automatically just write me off as crazy.
> 
> i recently posted about my newly found programatic lucid approach here: http://dreamviews.com/community/showthread.php?t=80267  have you ever done things like that? (see my second post half way down)
> 
> bow,
> doktor J
> http://www.doktorj.ca



I read your post and yes it seemds pretty familiar to me. I was also able to produce vivid hallucinations as a young kid and then have worked on control off and on for around 15 years. I've become good at controlling all sorts of sensory input to the point where I can pretty much completely disconnect myself from reality and go to a place of my own creation that feels just as real if not moreso than the real world.

I just read a wikipedia article that explains things pretty well as far as this tutorial goes. Although I have taken these controlled hallucinations to a much higher level and have not used any drugs to accomplish this. Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-eye_hallucination

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## Mariano

hi mylynes.
when I stare at plane surfaces I can see the so called visual snow.
is that good? can I use it to get better at controlling my vision? how?

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## Syruplord

> So yes you can do things such as block out pain. Just like the visual training you can train yourself to raise your own input over that of the feeling of the pain. When I first joined the navy and wasn't in the best condition we would be doing a lot of physical training and my body started really feeling the stress of overtraining because using this technique even though I would push through the pain and not feel much of it and keep pushing past the point where my body would go completely numb I would continue using the technique until the rest of the workout would be done. So even though I could not feel most of the pain my body still ended up getting damaged. By using this technique over your senses you can greatly increase your physical strength and endurance temporarily but would take a good bit of practice and if you push yourself too long or too hard you can really mess up your body.



Yeah I would be careful with controlling pain, because most of the time it is there for a good reason. If you're doing it for something like working out, you're putting a major strain on the central nervous system, and it could mess you up in the long run. I think the body has a pretty good control on pain though, if you are hurt and need to ignore it your body gives off adrenaline. All the other times it's a good warning to stop what you're doing or you'll damage your body.

So I am curious of the end result of this. A controlled hallucinogen seems like it would be cool, but is it fun? Lets say you're going for a run through a field of soft grass, can you make it so you feel like you're running through clouds in the sky or something? Could you pretend to shoot fireballs out of your hands and catch trees on fire? How far can this be taken! ::D:

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## Ceonsamea

I'm interested in hearing the answer to Sruplord's questions. I would imagine it could be done. If all 5 senses can be tapped into anything can be done, right?

Mylynes, you said earlier you could turn your monitor pink, leave the room and return and it would still be pink. Would this apply to everything? if you put yourself onto a beach with all 5 senses, for example, after the initial effort would you remain there, or does a certain level of concentration need to be maintaned? Also, what if someone from the real world tried to interact with you? Would this person appear in the 'beach scene', would you hear them, or be aware they are there?

Also, how interactive is this? must everything be conscous or would your mind fill in the blanks? If you were, for example, to replace the visual of a wall with whats behind it (making it invisible in effect), would you see the image behind the wall 'update' as you move around changing your line of sight?
If you walked towards the wall could you still touch it, since you only adjusted your sight, not your touch?

Also, in the case of the beach scenario, lets say you had all 5 senses tapped into the beach and you were sitting on sand, but there was a rock to your left. If you were to touch the rock, would you feel it, or would the effort need to be consciously made?

Sorry for lots of questions, I'm really interested in this. I don't know if all of what I'm asking is even possible to do, but for now I'm making the assumption it is so i can put my questions across more easily.

again, thanks in advance.  :smiley:

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## Mylynes

> hi mylynes.
> when I stare at plane surfaces I can see the so called visual snow.
> is that good? can I use it to get better at controlling my vision? how?



I don't understand what you are saying. Plane surfaces? Visual snow? Huh?





> So I am curious of the end result of this. A controlled hallucinogen seems like it would be cool, but is it fun? Lets say you're going for a run through a field of soft grass, can you make it so you feel like you're running through clouds in the sky or something? Could you pretend to shoot fireballs out of your hands and catch trees on fire? How far can this be taken!



Anything you can imagine you can create with your mind. When you completely cut your senses off from the real world you move around by controlling your senses to make yourself believe you are moving around however you want and your actual body would not be moving. How far can this be taken? As far as you want. You can get as creative as you want as long as you have good control over your senses. I personally like modifying my own body. Manipulating all or your senses including proprioception you could place multiple eyes in strange places and connect them to your vision to increase your visual input and see through many eyes at the same time. You can give yourself extra limbs and be able to feel everything with them. You can completely mutate your body to become as small or large as you want or to take on any shape you want. With practice you can control senses that humans do not have such as echolocation. Normal human senses can be manipulated and taken to a much higher level than would be possible in the real world.





> Mylynes, you said earlier you could turn your monitor pink, leave the room and return and it would still be pink. Would this apply to everything? if you put yourself onto a beach with all 5 senses, for example, after the initial effort would you remain there, or does a certain level of concentration need to be maintaned? Also, what if someone from the real world tried to interact with you? Would this person appear in the 'beach scene', would you hear them, or be aware they are there?



It normally requires a certain amount of concentration to keep these hallucinations intact but there is a technique I use to better solidify these hallucinations so that they take little to no focus to maintain. If a person from the real world tried to interact with you while you have yourself cut off from the real world they would not be noticed by you unless they create input stronger than the level of sensory control you are exerting in which case you would be able to feel a punch to the face for example or hear loud noises ect. As long as the input you create is higher than your real input all you notice is your own sensory input.





> Also, how interactive is this? must everything be conscous or would your mind fill in the blanks? If you were, for example, to replace the visual of a wall with whats behind it (making it invisible in effect), would you see the image behind the wall 'update' as you move around changing your line of sight?
> If you walked towards the wall could you still touch it, since you only adjusted your sight, not your touch?



In many cases your mind will fill in the blanks for things but my approach to manipulation of my senses requires constant effort on my part although the more you practice the easier it is to maintain control over your senses. You can sense anything you want to sense. You could see whatever you want on the other side of a wall and can even walk through it or merely completely remove the wall from your mind. Of course you wouldn't be able to physically move through the wall and although you can see anything behind the wall you will still be unable to sense what is actually there. If you know the layout of the building well then you can replicate it with your mind but you would still not be seeing actual objects from the real world. 





> Also, in the case of the beach scenario, lets say you had all 5 senses tapped into the beach and you were sitting on sand, but there was a rock to your left. If you were to touch the rock, would you feel it, or would the effort need to be consciously made?



It depends. If you are awake and inducing a hallucination then all of your senses involved need to be consciously controlled. You can however use this technique in a dream in which case you could take a much more passive approach and still manipulate what you want to.

----------


## Ceonsamea

Ok, thanks for the response Mylynes, the effort is appreciated.

I'm going to work at this some more tonight. I haven't got far, but I think the progress I'm making is ok (I got the coloured 'waves' that can sometimes be created intentionly and i can occasionly alter the colour, but nothing too bright. I do occasionly have trouble distinguishing between what I'm actually seeing and what I'm imagining, since i tend to do this while I'm lying in bed and usually start to fall asleep.)

If I run into any problems i'll be sure to leave you a post on your other thread  ::D:

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## Mariano

mylynes:
visual snow is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noisy_vision

also, I was thinking, you know that when you stare at a light for some time and then close your eyes, you will still see the light ...can this be used for practicing? I mean, trying to control it...you know



s

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## Mylynes

> mylynes:
> visual snow is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noisy_vision
> 
> also, I was thinking, you know that when you stare at a light for some time and then close your eyes, you will still see the light ...can this be used for practicing? I mean, trying to control it...you know
> 
> 
> 
> s



I am not sure but I don't think so. All you have to do is first see the canvas and then learn to manipulate your visual input.

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## ethan_hines

> _If you can't see anything then try closing your eyes, placing your palms against your eyelids and exert a small amount of pressure. You should see a lot of movement and colors even though your eyes are shut and there is no light to pick up. Try to recreate the same effect without exerting pressure on your eyes. You should probably try doing this at least one time but do not do it regularly..... After you get this down I would not suggest putting too much or for too long the pressure against the eyes because that may be bad for your eyes_



When I was a kid I used to love to do this.It was so cool to look at. Is it realy bad to do this often? Or is this just something our parents tell us, like the 'ol _"If you keep your eyes crosed like that, they will stay that way!"...._

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## Mylynes

> When I was a kid I used to love to do this.It was so cool to look at. Is it realy bad to do this often? Or is this just something our parents tell us, like the 'ol _"If you keep your eyes crosed like that, they will stay that way!"...._



I haven't really looked it up but it doesn't seem like it would be a good idea to do that often or for long periods of time. The second part of the tutorial allows you to create closed eye hallucinations which means you can reproduce the visual from that and much more without needing to physically stimulate your eyes. You may find this article interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-eye_hallucination

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## Jeff777

Interesting thread.

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## J$$ ÐW!GH ✖☯♪இ♣♣♣۞₪☢♣

lol, it's a proven fact that staring at the sun can leave an imprint on your retina, and those imprints can induce the cloured particles! thats what i tried once, and it got me moving in the right direction  ::D:

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## 44CalibreSunlight

This is really interesting, I always noticed that "static" that's constantly bombarding my vision. I notice it more when looking towards the sky I find, light or dark, than any soli object. I'm going to practice this. Controlling my senses is something I've always wanted to do.

edit:
Also, the applications for dream control are really exciting, I actually kinda thought most people on these forums did things like that constantly, altering their senses, body morphing, 360 degree vision and all those kinds of things.

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## Mariano

mmm, that's not static calibre, they are just floaters(like white corpuscles)
part of the eye.

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## 44CalibreSunlight

oh my bad. lmao, I gotcha

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## tommo

Hm, I commend your efforts in not going bonkers.
I can see someone figuring this out for themselves and believing that what they're doing is real.  In fact I'm pretty sure I've seen a similar thing on here or somewhere else before.  It's sobering to see someone stay in touch with reality while experimenting with these types of things.
Thanks mate!

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## Mylynes

> Hm, I commend your efforts in not going bonkers.
> I can see someone figuring this out for themselves and believing that what they're doing is real.  In fact I'm pretty sure I've seen a similar thing on here or somewhere else before.  It's sobering to see someone stay in touch with reality while experimenting with these types of things.
> Thanks mate!



Yea I've pretty much become adept at having these controlled hallucinations over the years. I don't know of any better way to describe them. And yes staying in touch with reality can become quite difficult when you get to the point where you can almost stay in your own reality. There are too many things here I would rather not leave behind though so I attempt to remain connected to this place.

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## DarkLucideity

Three things:

1. I would jump into this technique, but my only fear is that I might start seeing things that don't exist that I have no control over or that I did not consciously create. Is this possible? If so, how can I prevent it?

2. Is this technique useful not in dream control or controlling real life, but actually _inducing_ lucid dreams?

3. Say I create an entire scene around me. I'm standing on a beach. Now, say in this environment, I run forward and jump straight into the water. What happens in real life? Would I move if I was not careful?

EDIT: Actually, 

4. Say I did something like use this technique to create a miniature town on my desk, complete with people. Would I have to control everything the people do constantly?

----------


## Mylynes

> Three things:
> 
> 1. I would jump into this technique, but my only fear is that I might start seeing things that don't exist that I have no control over or that I did not consciously create. Is this possible? If so, how can I prevent it?
> 
> 2. Is this technique useful not in dream control or controlling real life, but actually _inducing_ lucid dreams?
> 
> 3. Say I create an entire scene around me. I'm standing on a beach. Now, say in this environment, I run forward and jump straight into the water. What happens in real life? Would I move if I was not careful?
> 
> EDIT: Actually, 
> ...



1. Yes it is possible and used to happen to me regularly and was not very fun. It still happens on occasion but most of the time I can tell whether something is real or not and now thanks to control if I ever sense something I do not like I can simply manipulate my senses to erase whatever the hallucination was from my mind or just cover it up whatever I want to sense.

2. In a sense this allows you to dream while awake in which case you would be lucid. However in this technique itself nothing really has anything to do with inducing lucid dreams. Just control.

3. Well this tutorial only covers sight in which case if you control your vision to go to a completely different scene from reality and decided to move around normally then yea you would be moving irl but with full sensory manipulation you would be able to make yourself think you are moving around when in reality you are not.

4. You would have as much or as little control as you want and are able to maintain.

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## Baron Samedi

I think this is real.  At first I thought this was bullshit.

I also thought shared lucid dreaming was bullshit, until I did it.

Rereading through this thread made me remember I used to do this shit as a kid, but I didn't have control.  It would freak me the hell out.  I thought I was insane.  Imagine being 5, 6, 7 years old and seeing shit that's not there, hearing voice.  You know it's not there.  But, you see it.  Whenever I closed my eyes as I kid, I would see a pattern of witches.

Psilocybin has helped me to learn to control this, and also increase brightness and clarity of these patterns.

I cannot see anything asymetrical for some reason. It's always some type of patterns.

What is a way to go beyond seeing these patterns?

What is a good way to increase the brightness?

What are some of the things you have done in these self induced hallucinations? I'd really like to hear some of your personal experiences

----------


## DarkLucideity

> It still happens on occasion but *most of the time* I can tell whether something is real or not



And the other times?

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## Mylynes

> I think this is real.  At first I thought this was bullshit.
> 
> I also thought shared lucid dreaming was bullshit, until I did it.
> 
> Rereading through this thread made me remember I used to do this shit as a kid, but I didn't have control.  It would freak me the hell out.  I thought I was insane.  Imagine being 5, 6, 7 years old and seeing shit that's not there, hearing voice.  You know it's not there.  But, you see it.  Whenever I closed my eyes as I kid, I would see a pattern of witches.
> 
> Psilocybin has helped me to learn to control this, and also increase brightness and clarity of these patterns.
> 
> I cannot see anything asymetrical for some reason. It's always some type of patterns.
> ...



I first started really noticing and interacting with this stuff back when I was 4. And yea back then a lot of the time the hallucinations I would experience were pretty messed up. I played with the basics of this technique and experimented with it when I was young but I didn't really start learning control until I was a teenager.

"What is a way to go beyond seeing these patterns?"
It just takes practice. Just practice the stuff in the tutorial and keep building on top of it trying to get better. Just try to learn one step at a time starting off with very simple manipulation and then getting more and more complex with it.

"What is a good way to increase the brightness?"
This is pretty simple all you have to do is decrease the amount of light that gets to your eyes. Practice in a dark room and/or use a blindfold or just close your eyes. The less amount of light you pick up when starting the easier it becomes to start forming the patterns into simple shapes and then move on to more complex objects and then move on to more and more complex images.

"What are some of the things you have done in these self induced hallucinations?"
I use this a lot while dreaming and I also use it to sort of create my own dreams while awake. For a while I kind of spend a lot of time disconnected from reality just living in my own world doing what ever the hell I wanted to do just kind of going through out the day doing the stuff I had to do like a zombie while my mind was at least mostly not there. While I was like this time tend to slow down sometimes where I would have spent a lot of time in my fantasy world only to peek back into the real world and notice that I had not been gone very long and then other times time would speed up and my mind would take off for weeks or months at a time. It was to the point that most of my memories I still have from back then were from a world that never really existed and I don't have a clue what was going on in reality back then.





> And the other times?



Sometimes I will hear or see things that only later I believe to not be real but usually if that's the case its because it blends in well.. Like I might see a dr pepper on my desk and pick it up and open it then drink some of it and enjoy it then i'll leave my room for a minute and come back to find nothing is there and nobody else but me would even be in the house. Any kind of uncontrolled freaky stuff I see that would be like demons crawling on the ceiling or something I simply instantly exert control to dispel it and the idea is that if I ever run into something crazy that doesn't get dispelled it could be real but so far I haven't really seen anything too crazy that I haven't dispelled or played with. Before I learned control I used to have issues with that but that all took place a long time ago and is the reason I pushed myself to gain control in the first place.

It took me a long time to figure out how to control everything so well on my own but if I had access to the info in my tutorial back then I'd be lightyears ahead of where I am right now. I have taught a few people the basics of this manipulation technique before writing this guide and they all seemed move with it pretty fast and it sort of helped me learn to better explain to other people how I was creating these hallucinations. Anyways, I wouldn't be too worried about uncontrolled hallucinations because either you'll fairly easily be able to tell if something is real or not especially at first before you start manipulating multiple senses to create completely realistic hallucinations or they will blend into the world around you and go unnoticed. Also by gaining enough control to start having good controlled hallucinations if you were to have uncontrolled hallucinations you should be able to apply the same technique to easily get rid of them. Just paint over them with your mind or erase them from existence.

----------


## dimitri2410

hi, i wanted to as a few questions as this week i made my self hallucinate my eyes were open i had what looked like a never ending pattern going down a tunnel, at first i thought was odd but i just went with it, i noticed after a few miniutes i could change the colour of the pattern and then wondered if i could change the pattern then realised i could zoom in onto select points and after 5 mins of moving around the pattern i stopped concenrating and the pattern went back onto its never ending pattern, tunneling inside its self. at that point i wondered of far i coould take it decided to make an object i instantly chose a cube a blue one rotating i made it with ease but as soon as anything came into my head that wasnt a cube it was a fast zoomout turning the newly formed cube into the everlasting pattern, at that point i gave up trying to do anything and just relaxed, then i saw some things with great detail like i was stood somewhere else completely, firstly i coould see a street with some houses and trees outside them i took notice of the houses i could see the curb the grass around the tree the tree it self, ( i thought however at the time maybe it was one house one tree but like the never ending pattern was repeating its self because i couldnt control it) after watchin this street for a while in my room from my head, i suddenly had a flash of the all seeing eye like in the one off the dollar bill. i am writing this to see what anyone thinks of it any feed back would be nice. i also had another extreme thing happen to me just a week b4 i am thinking this all has something to do with it maybe not but anyone giving me information that is usefull i will tell the story of what happened the week b4 not anyone would believe me so i think will save for people who may be able to help with these sorts of thoughts.  :smiley:  peace and muchlove xx

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## doktorj

dimitri:

you may want to see my semi-recent and detail post on this topic here:  lucid vision crafting part I... - Dreamcatcher ( Life is a dream. ) 

any feedback/suggestions/ideas encouraged.

sweet lucidity,
j

----------


## doktorj

dimitri:

you may want to see my semi-recent and detail post on this topic here: 

lucid vision crafting part I... - Dreamcatcher ( Life is a dream. ) 

any feedback/suggestions/ideas encouraged.

sweet lucidity,
j

----------


## Baron Samedi

Mylynes was one of the most weird and terrifying dreamers I ever met/battled on the Dream Plane. I heard he's now working as a government psychic.

----------


## redisreddish

This is really, really intriguing. I'm going to try it out. And I never really noticed the static that's there when there's no light! I always saw colors, but it seemed like they were just floating in plain blackness. Now I can see that it's like a constantly moving mass of "pixels," like you said.

EDIT: Right after posting this, I tried manipulating the static into a yellow circle. I got the yellow part, but can't seem to confine the pixels to one space. This is challenging!  ::D:

----------


## doktorj

practice and meditation help wonderzZz...

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## phasemancer

There is a meditation exercise where you are supposed to look at an flame, object on the computer screen etc. and focus on the after image. The goal is to keep the after image in your mind longer and longer, until you eventually can do it indefinitely. Here is a website describing the meditation and some figures you can use to do the actual meditation www dot navaching dot com/hawkeen/micro.html

I'm thinking that maybe tweaking this meditation method to could be an alternative way, or a supplement, to learn the techniques in this tutorial. Instead of only keeping the image in your mind, try to change its color, size and rotate it, but perhaps only after getting good at keeping the image in your mind.

What do you think?

----------


## phasemancer

One thing that seems to work for me is to first practice the meditation exercise in my previous post for maybe 10-20 minutes, then put on my mindfold goggles and switch to Mylyn's tutorial. I find it easier to see many bright "pixels" when doing it this way. 

I can now make some basic shapes like a square, but it's still a bit fuzzy, for example I find it hard to make completely straight edges, and I can't keep it for very long until it changes into something else.

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## tekkendreams

This is a very good article , I actually do this as part of my meditation . Not only does it help with mental focus but implementing this technique when your lucid will can also stabilize the dream when it starts to blur/fade out .

----------


## WDr

Let me see if I've got this right:

Whenever you want, you can imagine a warm beach completely vividly and real just as you would be there. You can feel the warmth, hear seagulls, touch the sand etc.

Right?

----------


## Baron Samedi

I have been practicing something called "Image Concentration" from a book called Liber Null by Peter J. Carrol. A couple days ago, I had a shape burned on to my eyes from the sun. I stared at a blank wall with my eyes open, and was able to change the color of the shape to bright red!

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## phasemancer

Now when I'm doing the afterimage meditation I'm able to keep the image in sight until I reach level 2 on the closed-eye hallucination scale described in Wikipedia. It takes me 3-5 minutes of focusing on the afterimage, and focusing on my breath as needed to still any internal dialogue, to reach this stage.

Closed-eye hallucination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I find that reaching level 2 here with the afterimage still in sight is helpful, because the afterimage works as a template where for me to fill in with the colors that are flashing by my closed eyes. The colors tend to move around a lot and the afterimage helps me have somewhere to move them to hold them still.

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## MrAccident

Since I read this thread, while I was going back in time (when the post was made) in the posts, and it was pretty far back - I didn't post my modest achievement.
But since this thread is now here - I'll post what I wrote to  Mylynes in a private message in 12,2011. Gotta say that since then there was no progress; but maybe it'll be a help to others in the research.

 "Sometimes I have, sort-of a spot in the field of vision that becomes brighter and brighter; until it's bright white; and than fades away. It takes a few seconds, and it's pretty rare.
So the first time when I tried to make something happen in the noise (what you called "the canvas"); while trying to WILD that thing started.
As it was becoming brighter, I tried to turn it into a square; and when it became bright, it turned into a perfect square; when it's naturally shapeless!
I think it's a progress. What do you think about it? Nothing like that have ever happened to me."

(End of quote)
Worth to mention that I was trying to see the square (and other shapes) for a few hours before it happened. It also didn't happen after that instance; even in that day; even if maybe I had the spots again.
I haven't been working on that for hours since then; maybe that's why it didn't happen again.
The spot thing is pulsing, and so did the square; I think it's pretty much like the same "material" as the regular noise, but some "hitch in the system" makes one spot brighter. Don't know if it happens to others.

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## phasemancer

Interesting, MrAccident

I usually have a bright spot, or field, of light, which starts of as diffuse, then after a while it gets sharp edges. The spot is pulsating and the color mostly changes between blue, red and whiteish. Sometimes the spot is round, then it usually becomes smaller and until it disappears, after it disappears it comes back big again going smaller and smaller and so on. Sometimes it changes from a round spot to move of a field, so it has one sharp edge which is either vertical and horizontal, this edge generally move in a single direction for a while, for example it can move to the left until it disappears from the left side of my field of vision, only to appear again on the right side and then continue moving left. When I see the "spot" as a field with an edge, it's kinda like if I was watching the light of a lighthouse with my eyes closed.

Sometimes when the light is a round spot I can make it stop changing size so much and make it a bit more stable. I've been able to make the shape change somewhat like a square, but the edges are jaggy, it's not a perfect square.

Is that spot something similar to your spot, MrAccident?

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## MrAccident

WOW, mine is much simpler. It just starts in one spot. It emerges from the darkness by becoming brighter and brighter until it becomes the brightest white; then it starts to fade away; probably even quicker then it came to be. The whole process takes a few seconds; maybe 10; some faster, some less fast.
Those things happen by themselves and they are extremely rare now; and also less intense\bright.
The spot suddenly turned into the square. The square seemed perfect in it's dimensions, and totally defined, with totally sharp edges. It was from a 0 success to 100% success; and then to 0 again. Like the story of the Lucid Dreams.

I think that it's essentially the same thing you described; especially because of the fact that it pulses.

This thing is essentially visible imagination; just like what we are trying to achieve. I mean it doesn't come from an outside source.
So I think that it's a good idea for you to try and work with that thing, whenever you have an opportunity.

How often does it happen; and does it interfere with your vision?

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## MrAccident

By your avatar, it was probably you who gave the site with those shapes.
It seems like a great idea. I actually thought of doing something like that; but for some reason didn't get around to that. Now I'm definitely going to practice.

But I don't know about those shapes in particular; I think I should change them.
I don't know if it's a good idea that those shapes are so complex. And also the background is white; so eventually I see the square of where the background ends, and the shapes.
I think that I should make a simple white shape in Photoshop, and the background will be black. First the black shape becomes white; but eventually they switch back and forth (or something like that); so it doesn't really matter. So when my eyes are closed - I will only see the simple shape. I think it's better to begin with the simplest shape.
What do you think?

And also, how long do you look at the image until closing your eyes for a while.

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## phasemancer

I can get the bright spot to appear after maybe a minute or so. At first when I close my eyes I see a lot of tiny dots of visual noise, but I don't pay any attention to them, I focus on feeling my breath on the tip of my nose to clear my mind. After maybe a minute or less I look around in the darkness/noise and try to see some brighter areas. Usually I will find, around the center of my vision, either some area which look like diffuse fog, or some spot which is brighter, I then just focus on this. I try to focus on my breath simultaneously, as a way to kind my mind from drifting to other thoughts about what I'll have for dinner or whatever. Whatever I'm focusing on, either a bright small spot or a larger diffuse light, tend to become lighter and brighter as I keep focusing, if I loose focus it often disappear. Sometimes the brightness will just disappear even if I feel like I focus, but most of the time it takes me 3-5 minutes to get a quite bright spot, or even multiple bright spots. Sometimes it seems to help me to try to imagine that I'm looking at an afterimage.

I also find that sometimes it's a bit bright, even with the light off, so I bought some opaque meditation goggles that I sometimes use. 
Amazon.com: Mindfold Sleep and Relaxation Eye Mask: Home & Kitchen

I haven't yet seen a perfect square like I can see from an after image, but I've managed to see a diffuse outline of a square, it kinda looks like something is covering it, like there is a layer of darkness on top, but often when I start seeing that I get too excited and loose my focus.

It does not interfere with my vision, but I think that if you focus too much on the really tiny visual noise, you might start noticing it more when your eyes are open. I can see it whenever I want, if I try to, but I never actually notice it. What I'm focusing on to get the bright spot though is not really the smallest noisy stuff but either spots which are a bit bigger and brighter, or bigger diffuse areas of light.

When I look at the afterimages I've found it to be easier not to use the mindfold goggles, because the afterimages seem to disappear faster. The main result I've achieved by using afterimages is that after about 2-3 weeks where I do the exercise a bit every day, I'm able to keep the afterimage long enough to make bright spots appear, and then I kinda move them into the afterimage, they still wobble around but it seems easier to keep them still by using the afterimage as a kinda template to keep the focus on.

I've made a few shapes myself also. I have a triangle and circle that I use sometimes.

I agree it's probably good to start with a simple shape, actually it often happens that the hollow square becomes a full square after keeping it in my mind for a while, same with the circle.

It think it doesn't matter too much how long you look at the image, I've seen several websites describing afterimage meditation that says different stuff, one says you should look while taking one breath, while another says you should look at it until you start seeing it changes color a bit, or the edges flicker. From my experience it seem I just have to look long enough for the shapes of the afterimage to get sharp. If at it for a too short time, the edges just look diffuse and it goes away really fast, but it seems looking just long enough to make the edges sharp should be fine. Also I read somewhere that if you want to train your visualization ability with this, instead of only your concentration, you shouldn't use only a single shape, but cycle through different shapes, like a square, circle and triangle.

----------


## phasemancer

Here is my experience with the afterimage meditation so far:

Stage 1:
The image is strongly bright. The whole image looks like beeing made of vibrating light, the edges are especially vibrating and can be a tiny bit diffuse. The first few seconds there might be additional outline of the image around the image itself. This stage lasts for about one minute.

Stage 2:
The afterimage in stage 1 disintegrates completely and disappears for a short while, when it reappears the edges are sharper, in fact the whole image is sharper. What look like ripples on a wave move across the image from time to time and erase bits where it passes through, but focusing on the image can keep it in place. This stage lasts for about 2-3 minutes. 

Stage 3:
The afterimage itself is darker than it is in stage 2, changes color and is floating in a sea of internally generated diffuse light and bright spots which moves across the visual field. Usually I see like a large bright blue spot in which the afterimage is centered. The afterimage in this stage is pulsating, changing from blue/whiteish color to almost black and back every second or so.

Reaching stage 2 for the first time took me a couple days, while reaching stage 3 took me about two weeks. Now I can reach stage 3 most times that I try and it comes faster and faster. If I do the exercise several times after each other, stage 3 is reached much faster after the first few times and my gets has become more focused.

Stage 3 is where the "pixels" appear, that can be controlled. My current hypothesis that I'm testing is that training myself to keep the image in this stage for a long time, will also make it easier to create new images from my mind in this stage. Evidence to support this is that I've seen several say that if you learn to keep the afterimage in your mind for a long time, you should be able to make it appear at will, without looking at an image first.

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## phasemancer

I just discovered something really cool. When I focus on the afterimage of a hollow square or circle I can actually fill the center, so it becomes a whole square or circle. I have to focus really hard to keep it filled though, or the color disappears from the middle. I think this might be a good exercise, so I'm gonna keep at it and see if it helps in creating the circle or square without looking at the image first.

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## MrAccident

For me, the after image doesn't change colours; but disappears and reappears; and I can see one image or another; I think it depends on my focus.
I don't think I'll know how to differentiate between the 3 stages you mentioned.
You said that after a minute, you see spots around the corners of your vision. For me, the noise move with my eyes; so I might see spots around the edges of vision, only in the opposite side; if you understand what I mean.
The bigger shape that encompasses the smaller shape, gets filled in by itself sometimes; but I will try to make that happen by will.
I'll make a simple circle, square and triangle; and get read of the plus; I don't like it. :-p
You didn't say what you think about making the shape white, and the background black.

Thanks for all the explanation.

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## phasemancer

> You didn't say what you think about making the shape white, and the background black.



I tried making the shape white and the background black, it seemed pretty much the same to me actually, so I don't think it matters that much what you use, just use what seems to work best for you.





> The bigger shape that encompasses the smaller shape, gets filled in by itself sometimes; but I will try to make that happen by will.



I found that the hollow square is the easier for filling completely, I too noticed that it sometimes get filled, so I tried to fill and empty it consciously, and found that I could if I focus really hard.





> For me, the after image doesn't change colours; but disappears and reappears; and I can see one image or another; I think it depends on my focus.



That's what happens for me too initally.





> I don't think I'll know how to differentiate between the 3 stages you mentioned.
> You said that after a minute, you see spots around the corners of your vision. For me, the noise move with my eyes; so I might see spots around the edges of vision, only in the opposite side; if you understand what I mean.



The transition between what I call stage 1 and 2 is the first time the afterimage disappear and then reappears. In both stage 1 and 2 the background/canvas is black with some static noise. The background looks something like this image:


The afterimage in stage 1 and 2 look similar, but in stage 1 it looks a bit brighter and a bit noisy, after it has disappeared once it comes and and this time the edges are a bit clearer, but it's a bit less bright. The color is something like bright yellow/greenish.

The transition to stage 3, is when the background changes. Instead of just static noise like in the first picture, a spot appear and it becomes something like this:

The blue spot here is what I was referring to as a bright spot earlier. The spot is sometimes exactly like in that picture, but sometimes it can be more like a wave coming from the sides, than a spot. In stage 3, the afterimage also changes. The afterimage goes from fading in and out with irregular intervals, to pulsate and change color in a rhythm corresponding to the movement of the blue spot. It changes from being almost black, to yellow and then blue, that is, it tends to become the color of whatever is moving across it, like the spot.

Stage 1 and 2 is quite similar, and it is possible that they're actually the same. Stage 3, however, is definitely something different. I try to control the blue spot that you see in the image above, and place it inside the afterimage and paint the afterimage with it, seems to work somehow, but I'm not very good at controlling it yet.

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## phasemancer

> Try to create those particle things I talked about and then color and shape them to match the image. If you are getting better at this then by holding the blueprint in your mind you should be able to fill it in easily by just allowing the pixels to kind of get sucked into the image making it solid.



When I see the blue moving spot like in the image above, I let it get sucked into the afterimage. I think that's what Mylynes is talking about in the above quote. 

I can make the blue spot somehow hold still for a while, but it's still moving quite a bit. The blue spot seems behave kinda like a gas, and it's like I'm blowing it into the afterimage. If I focus hard on making it stay still, it moves slower, or even stops for a while, but it starts moving again quite soon and doesn't yet completely stay still inside the afterimage. I think though, that with a bit more practice, I should be able to stably fill the afterimage with the blue spot. Then I guess comes the challenge of making it change color  :Cheeky:

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## phasemancer

I just found a thread on another forum which describes what looks like might be the next steps, because some of it corresponds to what I've just seen after the blue spot stage. 
Closed Eye Visualizations, page 1

Basically I were at the stage the blue spot is floating around the afterimage. After a while I was unable to hold the afterimage in my mind anymore and it completely disappeared, this took about 8 minutes from I closed my eyes (I know this because I was listening to a eight minute song long just which finished about the time the afterimage disappeared). What happened after I focused still on the spot for a minute for or so was quite interesting though. At the stage where I see the blue spot, I sometimes also see rainbow patterns floating by, but this time when I focused more it became something that looks like this, and the patterns were moving like waves 



After I looked at that for a minute or two, it changed into something that looks kinda like this, everything still waving 



After this it doesn't take long until the grid starts looking more 3-dimensional, a bit like in the image below, but not exactly. For me it looked a bit more like a landscape



From the descriptions on the other forum it looks like I should be quite close to the stage where the grid can turn into objects. I haven't been able to do that yet though. According to the other forum it should look something like this



According to the post on the other forum, the stages after this is where it should get really interesting, and the objects start looking like real life objects  ::banana:: 

For now, what seems to have worked best for me for getting more colors and stuff, is to switch regularly switch between passive watching and actively trying to change what I see. I'll have to experiment a bit more with this though.

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## MrAccident

WOW that's great.
OK so I also have stage 1 and 2. And I also can't influence the image much in stage 1; more in stage 2. I don't have stage 3.
From this thread and the other one - it seems a lot of people have all kinds of CEV abilities and skills. I'm having a hard time with it.
I hope I'll also be able to progress with this. Not like the lucid dreaming, that didn't turn into a skill; more a matter of luck.
This thing is more important to me than LD, because I think I'll be able to achieve more with it than LD with all it's limitation.
Anything that you learn, helps; so keep on posting. (ツ)b

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## phasemancer

I think one thing to remember though is that the stages will be a bit different for most people, and people naturally start at different levels. Some people it seems start out seeing fractal-like patterns, or even start with seeing realistic object, just maybe without having any control of what they see, while others just see darkness.

For example in this thread you can see that a lot of people see different stuff when they close their eyes:
http://www.dreamviews.com/f11/when-y...you-see-17028/

Personally, when I started out, I only saw the stage 1 static noise, this is a couple months ago. Since that I have watched whatever I see in the darkness behind my eyes from time to time, but only the past month or so have I really practiced regularly, minimum 20-30 min every day. The first few weeks what happened is mainly that I could keep the afterimage longer and longer in my mind, first a few minutes, then five, now I'm at about eight minutes. After the afterimage disappear, it can also be interesting to continue doing Mylynes' exercises, it seems to me that they work better when you're in the state of mind you get in from focusing on a single thing, like that afterimage, for some minutes. My most interesting experiences until now was yesterday, what happened then is I kept the afterimage in my mind for maybe five mins, then I get the blue colored area moving around, after about eight minutes, the blue colored area turns rainbow colored and I've lost sight of the afterimage. I keep focusing on the rainbowcolored wavy area and suddenly it goes from being 2D to becoming 3D. I did the same thing today and tried to create a square when the background is 3D. I still only managed to get a diffuse outline of a square, I can see it, but it's not very bright. What happened to the square is quite interesting though, it seem like it moved with the 3D background and became kinda like a rectangular tunnel for a few seconds. While my control is still limited, I notice it improving all the time and the patterns and colors that appear become more and more interesting.

"The Inner Reality Technique" from the tutorial in the link below also seems consistent with what I'm observing, it talks about the background becoming three dimensional and stuff. This tutorial says you should do this before bed though, but I generally do it during the afternoon instead and it seems to work for me. Actually I find that doing in before bed makes it difficult to sleep and I also find it more difficult to concentrate properly then. I think what is happening is that focusing on something like an afterimage for a while, will put your mind in a state where you can see hypnagogic imagery 
http://www.dreamviews.com/f12/induci...art-2-a-29491/
From this tutorial, it looks like what should happen next is that I should be able to see rotating static images, but I'm not there yet.
I also do the "Day Time Practice of Vivid Imagery" from this tutorial when I'm waiting for the bus and stuff like that.

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## phasemancer

Just read in a meditation book that the blue spot might be sleep spindles caused by the relaxation of the brain by focusing on a single thing for a while, or some other similar activity in the brain. In any case, today I haven't seen it. I think that stage 3 is probably not really a stage, just something you can observe depending on where the visual attention is focused. When I focus on what I see in the darkness, it seems like there are many layers actually. 

One curious thing is that if I wear my mindfold goggles and wave my hands in front of my face, I can see some lights moving in the direction of the hand movement, which comes clearer if I focus on it, like one of the layers is receiving proprioceptive data. I think that this is probably what synesthesia is, so maybe you could also learn to "see" sound or other senses by focusing on the light your are seeing and then trying to see if some of it matches the other sense your are trying to match with, and afterwards focus on that light. 

Seeing sounds is not what we are after here though, but rather seeing memory and imagination. I think that you can see a whole lot of weird stuff going on in your brain by focusing your visual attention on different things. For example fractal patterns that some people are observing, is probably various electrical activity going on in different parts of the brain that they somehow manage to route into the visual cortex. Because of this, I guess many of the things you could potentially see is not really useful for visualization the imagination and it should probably be most effective to remember to focus on seeing shapes rather than getting too fascinated with whatever visual stuff pops up.

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## MrAccident

But remember the spot that I turned into a square. I think maybe what ever is not a real stimuli of sight, that you see, is imagined; so maybe it's easier to play with it, rather than something that is really out there, or just darkness.
Well, since I started just a few days ago; I'm not suppose to have much of a progress necessarily; so we'll live and see.

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## phasemancer

Yeah, focusing on an afterimage trains the attention which in any case should be an essential skill though, but I guess it's not really useful after getting past the newbie stage (not sure when that ends though :p)

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## MasterMind

Old thread I know but I don't CAAAAAAAAAAARE as Pewdiepie would say, 

I absolutely love this idea and I am going to start doing this tonight!  :woohoo:

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## MrAccident

This thread has become new, with new ideas, new interest, and hopefully new success. :-)

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## phasemancer

I've found that after I've focused on the darkness for a while and light appear, I can somehow "push" the light. I've been able to push the light until it forms a line, but not something like a circle yet. It seems to me that a key skill to learn is concentration. The better concentration I get, the more it seems I can do with this stuff.

I'm now using these cards to train concentration. I zoom in on a single card with an image viewer, until it covers almost the entire screen. The idea is you first learn to keep one ball afterimage for five minutes, then two, three and finally you should be able to keep a four ball afterimage stable in your mind for five minutes. 


Currently I have no problems keeping on ball in my mind for more than five minutes, but two balls is still difficult. 

From what I've read on other websites and forums, it seems like as your concentration skills improves, it should at one point start to get easy to change the afterimages, for example a circle into a square.

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## phasemancer

I made images for the individual concentration exercise cards and added a black dot in the middle to keep the focus on.

http://i.imgur.com/DKPx5.gif
http://i.imgur.com/f6r15.gif
http://i.imgur.com/UN5XJ.gif
http://i.imgur.com/PA4tS.gif

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## MrAccident

Hey good job phasemancer. I don't know how you find all those forums and sites; I guess it's probably because you're not lazy like me.
Anyway great; I'll train on that too. And a good job on the images.

I think you were right that the "pixels" and the images that the mind creates, are not the same thing; the after images are probably something else too.
After reading your posts and the ones you gave in the links, I tried to focus on some brightness that I saw in the darkness, and just on whatever besides the noise. It was probably after some training with the afterimages, and I wanted to sleep. I started to see the noise like when you first just start to see the 3D in a stereogram; and then an image started to appear from the back of the noise, in an odd angle; a flat image that didn't come straight towards me. It disappeared before I really saw it. I was falling asleep a little bit; so it was probably HI; but still an interesting way to bring it. And I don't have a lot of it usually.
If I remember correctly, I was expecting that something will appear, and not from the noise, but somewhere else. So you guys can try this, and see what happens.
I think that all of this is generally good for the imagination. Yesterday I tried to make something like that to appear again; and the imagination started to produce a lot of stuff that was constantly changing; never became vivid though; and at some point there was a bit too much light, and then I noticed that I almost hear sounds that I imagine. So I started to focus on that; and a lot of the sounds I couldn't really distinguish between whether I was really hearing them or it was a really vivid imagination. I think I heard some voices at some point. I hope that's not how you start to hear voices telling you to do stuff... nee... I really don't care. :-)

So this post was basically a mass of random stuff that had something to do with the subject.

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## phasemancer

I just use google :p For example one of the things I was searching for was "meditation afterimage rotation", because I was wondering whether anyone could rotate afterimages, since for example Sythix's tutorial mentioned rotating images.

I noticed something else that makes it seem like the afterimages, pixels etc are different things also. I was able to move one of the round afterimage, but then after a while the afterimage came back in the original spot, so suddenly I had two "afterimages". It seems like what happened is that the afterimage was somehow still imprinted, but when I tried to move it, my mind made a copy and moved that while the original afterimage appeared again after a while.

Great work on making something appear. I think expectation is important. If you expect something to appear in a lucid dream, it tends to appear, and I think the same principle could be valid here. Was it like a full-colored image, or just an outline? I see mostly outlines, in HI I might for example see the outline of a car driving by.

Haven't tried focusing on sound, should try that. I guess if you get good at this, you might be able to hear your thoughts as if they were from an external voice if you want, but if you can make it appear you should be able to make it disappear also. A few days ago when I was focusing on light and made a lot of colored lines appear, I tried to focus on making them move to the music I was listening to, and after a while they started moving to the music all by themselves. Was pretty cool, looked kinda like those visualization things in winamp.

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## MrAccident

I didn't have HI for a long time. It's hard to know what is HI, and what is LD. I used to have just pictures appear and disappear pretty quickly. That's what it was; but it came from an odd angle. I started to see a picture; maybe a part of it was still in the dark. I mostly knew it was an image. I usually have a knowing what is not real. For instance, once when I opened my eyes, right after a dream, I saw an illusion, a spider like grey shape; and even though it looked totally real, I knew it was an illusion

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## phasemancer

I just found that more than a century ago, professor George Trumbull Ladd at Yale University did scientific studies on this. Here are pdf's of the studies

DIRECT CONTROL OF THE 'RETINAL FIELD': REPORT ON THREE CASES
DIRECT CONTROL OF THE RETINAL FIELD

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## MrAccident

What the hell?! Only 4 subjects out of 16, didn't report success. What are we (And more importantly I'm) doing wrong?
Too bad he didn't write the instructions of the experiment.
Anyway thanks for this material.

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## phasemancer

It seems like it is supposed to happen quite quickly when you do it correctly and the skill should also improve fast. It's definitely not been improving quickly for me, even though I do have some success, but my control of stuff is still rather limited, so I guess there's something I'm not doing quite right :p

There are some hints in the articles though. One point is that is seems important to focus at the correct distance




> Miss C. at first had no success at all. But by persistent trying, lines corresponding to the limbs of a cross began to appear in the retinal field; and once she got a complete cross. This experimenter thinks that her failure at first was largely due to looking too near; for several times, after she had tried in vain for some minutes, the limbs of the cross would suddenly start up in the distance, as it were.



It also looks like you should select a single point of light and try to change that into something else, this is similar to what Mylynes writes.





> By closing my eyes somewhat tightly I could see a number of 'bits' of colored light upon my retinal field. Selecting one of these colors I concentrated my attention upon it, and it seemed to grow of its own accord into a perfect circle. I then willed that this circle should become an ellipse; and without the faintest 'muscular sensations' (except the vague strained feeling of purely mental concentration) the circle 'sagged ' into an ellipse







> The color of the 'Eigenlicht' had (ordinarily on beginning the experiment) the appearance of a dancing mass of vari-colored dust. As soon as attention and will had gained control of the mass, the color seemed to be at their mercy.



It seems like the students had problems with the exercises if they were feeling tired and had troubles focusing their attention, but had most success after a day of reading and focused attention, if they were not exhausted. 

I'll continue experimenting with this and I have some new ideas from these articles that hopefully will help me get more useful results faster.

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## MrAccident

Yeah, it's not like any skill. I could fly a plain within an hour, probably. I can do anything (without bragging :-p). But those things are not like any skill; it's like the success here is at the mercy of the subconscious part of the mind, which sometimes just mercifully gives us a glimpse of what could be done with it; and there's no training method, known to us.
But there probably could be a method; and I'm sure it could be like a skill.
There must be some people out there TODAY, that practice those kind of things; like some Buddhist monks or something. If anyone can find it - it's probably you (a pretty blunt hint).

A few more things I observed; and wonder what you'll think of them:
1) After work, I ride in a car for a while; and usually look straight ahead, most of the time. When I return home, When I close my eyes, I have the sensation of going forward, like in the car; and I kinda see things move towards me - like what I see in the car; including some other things on the rode. It's not vivid; more like the "mind's eye" thing.
2) In the complex shapes, like the circle in your avatar and the similar square, I sometimes see a positive afterimage.
3) Yesterday after looking at white shapes and the white parts of the complex shapes, first I saw them as white or black (don't remember); and then they became a strong blue; and quickly disappear. Couldn't change the color. Actually a few times it was purple.

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## phasemancer

The papers I linked to previously seems to be some of very few scientific investigations into this, but it seems to be pretty common in spiritual practices. 

It looks like similar practices might be used in various types yoga, buddhism, chaos magick etc. and I think that it is possible that what is referred to as "opening the third eye", is basically learning this stuff, to actually "see" what you imagine in a perceptual way. The descriptions I find are always a bit vague on some points though, I guess it's hard to describe and especially to completely describe all the details, like is it good or bad to move or focus your eyes, so I think it's easy to do some small thing wrong.

The exercises I've found all seem to fit in one of these categories:
*Focus the attention on light you can see with your eyes closed, and change these into different shapes and colors
*Visualize an object from memory/imagination and focus the concentration on this while simultaneously watching the darkness behind the closed eyes until the imagined object appear in front of you
*Focus on an afterimage as long as you can, until one day you can see the afterimage without first looking at an image

I've also read (parts of) some books (The Headtrip by Jeff Warren and The Dream Drugstore by Alan Hobbson) that suggest that hypnosis can enable this (at least in some people) by disabling inhibitory systems that stops you from "seeing" object you imagine so you don't get scared of an imaginary tiger or whatever, these systems are disables when you dream, and inputs to consciousness are internal rather than external. Even so, internal inputs seeps through all the time and is still an important part of how we see, it uses your previous experiences and actually generates what you expect to see, which is not always what's there. An example is the optical illusion of a vase and a face, another is the optical illusion where you find your optical blind spot, you see that you don't see a dot on some sheet, but then when it's switched to a pattern, the brain fills in the blind spot with the pattern instead of showing nothing, because it expects the regular pattern to repeat. 

Now I've definitely made progress since I started. When I close my eyes I can see colored spots and blobs, can move them around and make them increase in size. What I've not been able to do yet is to perfect shapes that are clear and bright, like the afterimage of a cross or a circle. I'm definitely learning something, and making progress in some direction, but as I haven't found really clear descriptions of how the progress should be and how to know whether you're doing thing correctly, so I can't yet tell with 100% certainty whether or not I'm making progress in the right direction, though I'm quite sure that I am at some level, but I'm also quite sure that I could do stuff much more efficiently if I knew how.

For your questions:
1) Interesting, maybe memory of what you just did show up somehow.
2) Me too. I've noticed that when I close my eyes, for a fraction of a second I see more or less the same picture as I saw with my eyes open, but often just the more light parts, then it changes into a negative afterimage after a second or so. I've been practicing this lately, closing my eyes and trying to keep the image longer and longer, and imagining as many details as I can.
3) I've seen this also, afterimages turning blue or purple after a little while, I think that blue or purple color may have something to do with activation of Koniocellular cells in the Lateral Geniculate Nucleus in the Thalamus. If this is so, then of course another questions is whether that is what you want to do, or if you actually want to active other cells.

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## MrAccident

It seems that people who have success with these things, do it through influencing the subconscious. And my subconscious is really hard to influence. That whole placebo effect ~ believing in stuff. So it won't be a good method to learn this, for me.
I actually thought of going to a hypnotist, if it's not going to be expensive, then closer to winter, when it's less hot. But like most those kind of things, it'll probably be a waste of time and money.

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## phasemancer

To an extent that is true, though I think that the Mylynes way of moving "pixels" around should require less of this than methods where you imagine an object and then see it. 

You're giving me an idea. We know it's possible and that the more you believe you can do it, the more likely it is that you'll have success, this is what autosuggestion is useful for. Repeating something to yourself makes many times your subconscious believe it, so saying something like "When I close my eyes, I see many pixels that I can manipulate into shapes and change into different colors" out loud or just in your head for maybe 5-10 minutes a day should help. I'm going to try this at least.

I think the main problem with going to a hypnotist is finding someone who has enough knowledge to actually be helpful, but who knows.

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## phasemancer

This morning I woke up after sleeping maybe 6 hours, and I thought I'd just lie in bed and try to practice this a bit. I put my blanket over my eyes to make sure it was really dark, and then I tried to focus on "selecting" a single "pixel" to try to change it into something else. As I was doing this I noticed a few times that images was flashing by and suddenly I found myself fully immersed in a dream. I was standing on a road outside some tunnel and realized that I had just fallen asleep, so it definitely works for WILDing also.

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## phasemancer

Now I've made some definite progress. Making stable shapes is still difficult, but I've found that it's quite easy for me to generate colored blobs. I look at the points of light and then I focus on the memory of a color and try to visualize it, I found that I have most success with dark red and blue. I can now focus on red and visualize the color red and how it would look until I get a red cloud of color, I can then expand this cloud to fill my entire field of vision. With blue it's similar, but I find it harder to expand the blue color to fill a large area for some reason.

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## MrAccident

I found something pretty good. I actually didn't try to find something for the after image, or even related to this topic. I was actually reading about LAB color space in Photoshop; and somehow got eventually to this thing.
It's called Impossible Colors or Forbidden Colors. Here's the Wiki - Impossible colors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There's an image there for one of the 2 colors; I searched for the second and found it; and in the comments, someone wrote about a crazy afterimage he got, that lasted for a long time. Only then I closed my eyes and focused on the afterimage, after viewing the picture for a while.
What I saw was purple and lite blue; separately; either or. I can switch between them at will.
I didn't get to experiment with them a lot; so I leave you with this.

I took the picture from Wikipedia and made the second with it; taking the colors from the other picture I found on the web, of a less good quality.
You need to cross your eyes, until you form a third square between the two; and the crosses become one cross; that is what helps keeping focus.

I also give another image that leaves you with a "super green" after effect. Look for a minute or more at the center of the red part of the picture (I made a little dot) and then slowly (I think) move your eyes to the bottom part, and then just continue watching in awe. (Don't know if it can help with the afterimage)
I would like to find more pictures like the "super green" one; if there are others. I don't think that there are other "impossible colors" images.
BTW, I couldn't really see the "Impossible colors"; but at least it can help with our task, maybe.

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## binnen

Anyone still active in this thread? However, about this whole technique thing. I cant seem to see the pixels described in step 1. Any tips on how to see them?

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## MrAccident

What do you see?!

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## phasemancer

@MrAccident
Cool stuff. This actually reminds me a bit of something I found a while a called called "Tables of Chartres". 
Chartres-tafeln-543px.jpg
You're supposed to cross your eyes and it's a bit similar to that impossible colors, but the main thing here is that the different figures will appear at different depths and should help with depth perception. You're then supposed to switch between the red and blue color at will and this should improve your concentration.

This site has some more description about this.

When I look at the impossible colors, I don't think I really see the impossible color, but I notice the color changes between the two colors, this is also what happens to me when I look at at the Tables of Chartres, with the Tables of Chartres you're not supposed to focus on the afterimage, but I tried and noticed I see an animated afterimage with changing colors.

@binnen
Make sure it's completely dark. Sit in a completely dark room, or put on a blindfold or a blanket over your head. 

Look at what you can see, it may look completely dark, but there should be a bit of noisy pixels there.

To increase the number of pixels you should sit for a while. One thing to do is to calm your mind by focusing on the feeling of your breath going in and out of your nose. Try to feel the temperature of the air, you should feel that when you breath in the air is colder than when you breathe out. Your breath works as an anchor to focus your mind, to avoid thinking of other things, try to completely still your inner dialogue. 

At the same time as you're doing this, pay attention to the darkness in front of you. Is it changing? After a while you should notice dots or clouds of light, you can also try to imagine that you are seeing a blue or red cloud of light in front of you, and see if it starts to appear after a while. Just be patient, don't give up if you don't see anything for the first few minutes.

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## binnen

Thanks, Ill try that tomorrow when I have time. If I understand this right, what you see is your eyes input and the "pixels" are your minds input? And practising strenghtens that?

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## MrAccident

Binnen:
Closed-eye hallucination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What I see is "Level 1". Only once I saw "Level 2"; recently, after a lucid dream started which I snapped out of, pretty fast.
The image of "Level 1" is really similar to what I see; a bit slower though. You can also enlarge the image, to study it closer.
I wouldn't call that "pixels", because they move. I call that noise; like on TV, when there is no station signal.
You can be in a "totally" dark place; but if there is light behind close eyes - you can see the noise, lighter.

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## phasemancer

When I close my eyes I see level 1 noise, like MrAccident, also slower than in the animation on Wikipedia. One of the things I try to do sometimes is to capture one of these little dots with my attention, currently it takes me a while, up to half an hour, because they are moving fast and are hard to catch, but then it looks like the afterimage of a light bulb and becomes more stable.

After I have my eyes closed for a couple minutes, I see something like the animation with the caption "CEV pattern simulation". I've found I can change the color of this cloud like pattern, most easily to either red or blue, something greenish if I focus on green for a while, I've tried other colors with less success. If I observe these clouds for a while they become more three dimensional and look more like a moving mesh or clouds with a bit of depth.

Also I had a WILD again this morning. I was just observing the darkness for a little while right after I woke up, and tried to think of a cross to see if it appeared, I was still really sleepy and my thoughts started to drift and I was kinda daydreaming, thinking about running, and suddenly I noticed I would start to see a faint outline of what I was thinking of, so I just continued through with that thought while observing what I saw and the image increasingly became clearer and clearer until I was completely immersed in it and was able to move my dream body inside what had just been an image in front of me. I woke up after a short time and tried to do the same several times more, I started to notice the images becoming clearer again but the first one I focused to much on the actual image, and it seems better to focus on the distance and not details until it appears, afterwards I was too awake.

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## MrAccident

I can't focus on a "pixel" because they are too small for me to see an individual one. I don't know if there is even a limit to how small they are. They do tend to cluster; but it's like a mash of them, not a single one.

Anyway, about the Tables of Chartres; I read about it, and I didn't understand about the depth part; maybe it has to do with people with vision problems.
But I actually made something like that, a few days ago. I wasn't sure about the best background; that's why I didn't upload it here. But I think I found the best background color - grey.
I realized that I probably could switch between the colors, because I had two afterimages - one from each eye; so I thought I can make the same thing with shapes.
So here they are.

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## phasemancer

They are really small for me also, but some are bigger. Though it actually seems that I can't control them very well if I focus on one individually, I tried to focus on a red one and then focused on thinking of the color blue, this made the background turn blue, while the "pixel" was still red. It seems like clusters are easier to change, maybe they're made of different types of "pixels" some that are easier to change and some more difficult.

These figures you made are really interesting. One thing I've found is that currently I can hold an afterimage of a colored image in my mind much shorter than that of a black image, so they might be good both for practicing holding a colored image longer and switching between colors and shapes.

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## phasemancer

It seems like Nikola Tesla had this kind of ability, and his controlled hallucinations made him able to actually see and test new inventions in the virtual reality of his mind, before physically building them. Starting from the bottom of page 3 of his autobiography, he describes some quite interesting things http://теслинавизијаинтернета.срб/wp...Inventions.pdf

Tesla was not able to project any forms onto what he saw behind his closed eyes until he reached a phase that followed after seeing uniform grey, and in this phase there is "billowy sea of clouds, seemingly trying to mould themselves in living shapes".

Another possibility to get this kind of abilities is by using transcranial magnetic stimulation to switch from external sensory input to internal. Afaik there is not any research into exactly this at the moment, but I think it's not too far from what is being done, so someone should figure it out eventually. When that is done a wearable device could be built so you could just sit down, press a button and off you go, the basic technology required exists already, the main thing that's missing I guess is exactly where to point the magnetic coils.

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## MrAccident

What he wrote is exactly what I thought (a part of, actually).
So I'll write parts of my theory about this thing; if we came to this.

About the magnetic stimulation - it could be the first trigger; but I think that if some, even slight step in controlling the visual cortex is made - we will be able to proceed to higher and higher control of it, by ourselves.

My hypotheses are about what the phenomena is; and what can be done with it.

I read recently a thread similar to this one. I didn't find much useful information in it; so you don't have to read it. But there was one very insightful comment.
How detailed is your mental imagery / mental visualization? - mind visualization imagery | Ask MetaFilter
Read the comment that starts with "I can pretty much visualize anything I want, whether it's something" (use Ctrl+F to find).
(In case someone will read this in the future, and the other thread will not exist) What he says basically is that when we imagine something - it's information about something, and about how we perceive it. So we perceive an imagined image as an image; but really it's not an image at all, because we don't really see it ~ it doesn't form in the visual cortex.

So here's what I have came-up with so far - there's no such thing as knowledge, as in information, stored like on a computer; there's only imagination. There are already the neurons and connections; and they are being invoked by new stimulation.
There are two ways to experience that imagination:
Through the abstract imagination.
And through what we call - experience; i.e., vision, hearing, etc.
Let's come back to vision. When we see something, we visualize it in the visual cortex.
The signals from the eye are triggering what is being seen.
In a lucid dream, we see things exactly in the same manner. It's just isn't being initiated by signals from the eye; but rather from our imagination.

There are two ways that the brain imagines: abstractly and precisely.
The regular imagination is abstract and fuzzy. Everything about it is fuzzy; what you imagine, where it is, it's shape, it's color, it's fleeting easily, etc.
In a lucid dream, what we see is precise; the visual cortex has to make a precise image, because that's how it works. What you imagine, stays there, fixed.
And when you have control in a lucid dream - you can create, either directly or to "summon" things into being. And the brain seems to have all the calculation abilities to make what ever you want, happen.
I think that's the key to savant-like abilities; and even greater ones.
There are some things that our brain have developed to do amazingly; like face recognition; and there are things that our brain haven't developed to do; like mathematical thinking. So we do it in a very poor manner; with an unsuitable area of the brain.
If we'll start to implement other areas of the brain, that will do a much better job in what we need - we'll be able to do what so far was considered to be impossible for a human being to do.
We, compared with the savants, are like a person with "face blindness" (when a person can't recognize faces). Now that I know it's possible - I kinda feel handicapped.
These savant-like abilities, a lot of time have to do with Synesthesia; probably because of this. What Tesla described, was a form of Synesthesia. Those images arose, when he saw something, or felt something.

This of course is not a whole or accurate representation of the brain; just the relevant aspects for our issue.

What we need to do is to find a first step to controlling the visual cortex (or other precise information parts of the brain), so we could continue forward; probably easily.
I think that a lot of different things can be the first step; and it can be achieved by a lot of different ways. For instance,  Mylynes started to control the "pixels"; Tesla had invasive images; some people here are great at lucid dreaming, and so on.

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## phasemancer

Allan Snyder at Centre for the Mind is working on making  savant-like abilities by TMS. For example he's shown that you can stimulate an area of the brain and get increased visual memory, which increases the ability to draw something, and that magnetic stimulation of other areas can lead to great skills in integer arithmetics. He has some  quite interesting publications.

It seems like what we normally perceive is constrained by sensory input, in a dream or hallucination it not contrained and thus seeems completely life-like. 

Different mental conditions can lead to different skills that normal people do not have. One of these groups is autists, which is what Allan Snyder is studying. Great skills in visualization or imagining things in a perceptual way seems to be common with people who have obsessive compulsive disorder or schizophrenia, these also often occur together. From Nikola Teslas autobiography, it seems he had obsessive compulsive disorder, but not schizophrenia. I think synesthesia is related to this, at least some forms. From what I've read, it looks like a major part of the explanation for these things is how information is routed through the thalamus. In schizophrenia I think that some chemical imbalance causes information to be routed more freely through the thalamus, but because it not specific, it doesn't only enable routing data from memory to the perceptory systems, to be able to visualize things clearly, but it also send stuff randomly around the brain. In Nikola Teslas case he didn't have completely unspecific disinhibition, causing data to flow around everywhere, but a more specific disinhibition of only certain areas. The chemical imbalance, compared to an average person, made data flow from memory/imagination to the perceptory system easily, so he could imagine anything clearly, but also made data flow between other parts of the thinking brain, causing obsessive compulsive disorder, but not something more serious like schizophrenia.

One thing I've been wondering about is whether someone with less natural visualization skills and more average brain chemistry, might perhaps need to be in a more relaxed state to be able to visualize more cleary. Over the past few days I have studied the patterns and things I see behind my closed eyes at different times of the day and noticed that the patterns are moving in a distinctly different way when I'm on the edge of sleep, or at any time if I wake up in the middle of the night and focus on what I see. After I've had a certain amount of sleep, this goes away, and I go back to more slowly moving patters. These fast moving patterns are when hypnagogic imagery can happen. I think that this state is what Tesla describes that precedes being able to visualize greatly. From Sythix's visualization tutorial (http://www.dreamviews.com/f12/induci...art-2-a-29491/)





> What you&#39;ll notice is that you cannot properly focus your attention on this image for more than a fraction of a second, as the image will disappear to be replaced by something with a similar pattern, or totally disappear - but that time you will start to notice that darkness becomes three-dimensional instead of flat. As darkness is now 3-dimensional you&#39;ll see it start to "boil". By "boiling" I mean that you start to observe sub-hallucinations, constantly appearing and disappearing.



I can definitely relate to this, but it only happens just before I fall asleep, or if I wake up in the middle of the night. If I wake up after sleeping a few hours and then start focusing on what I see behind my closed eyes, this would be a good description. Now I'm thinking that perhaps this state could be a required prequisite for good visualization, that you perhaps may have to relax into a hypnagogic state. In Sythix's tutorial there is a section on inducing hypnagogia without being sleepy (Hypnagogic Imagery/Hallucination Techniques & Tips). Also his first tutorial seems to deal a bit with this (http://www.dreamviews.com/f12/induci...art-1-a-24607/)

It could be that Mylynes is talking about something else though, as I am able to change the color of patterns in a non-hypagogic state it could very well be that it's a different thing, and that there is several different ways to do these things. My plan now is to experiment more with Mylynes's technique in a hypnagogic state and see how that goes.

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## MrAccident

Sythix seems to have a lot of technics... I suspect that it's because... HE'S REALLY GOOD AT VISUALIZING TO BEGIN WITH!! But tell me if they work for you; if you practice them that is.

These waves in the noise, started to occur more often for me. It's always after I fall into a dream and wake up immediately. I can't do anything with it though.
So it may be connected to certain states.

Yeah, I forgot to mention that some time ago, I came to a conclusion that the regular imagination is like the one in a LD; but something is prohibiting it. But I'm not sure now, because of the fuzziness factor. It doesn't happen in a LD; everything is clear and precise.
So I don't know if it's possible to just enhance the regular imagination, until it's totally vivid.

I don't thing that those are the same things. I think that HH are sort of like LDs; in that they come more or less naturally, when you fall asleep.
MyLynes's technique I think is about starting a connection between the imagination that we can control ~ our will, and the visual cortex.
But the HH seems to be the least controllable thing; from all I read here about it. But with MyLynes's technique... may be a good experiment.

Another interesting thing that I forgot a few times to mention here is that once I had a lucid; and after it ended, I slipped into another (observation -- when my body doesn't exist), of a pattern of lines and some other things attached to the lines; like something you can see on a sofa. And it was just a static picture. It ended after a few seconds; and I saw the noise, naturally because my eyes were closed. And there was an afterimage of the pattern. :-)
Have no idea what you can do with this information; but... let it be.

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## phasemancer

Sythix's tutorials seems to be based mainly on various techniques on this forum and other forums, and the article Conscious Dreaming and Controlled Hallucinations by Claude de Contrecoeur. He has added some more info though, so it looks like he's quite good at these techniques and I guess that could be partly because of being good to begin with.

The daytime visualization technique of looking at something at then keeping the image in mind after closing the eyes seems to work, at least if it very light. I close my eyes I can see things clearly, things which was illuminated by strong sunlight, I can see as clear as with my eyes open, but just for a split second, however the time I can hold it has increased, now for maybe a second or so. According to Sythix's tutorial, this should increase and when you can hold quite long, you should try move the images you see and eventually you should be able to visualize things as clear as if you're seeing them. This visual memory might be what is called iconic memory, or actually the specific component called visual persitence and is supposed to basically just keep an image of what you see for less than one second. It persists in V1 of visual cortex, and I think maybe Sythix's tutorial teach you how to keep it there for a longer time. Visual persistence normally lasts for 150 milliseconds, but with some practice I've been able to keep it for as long as a second.

I think that normal imagination can get really good, but that you can imagine things conceptually and perceptually. If I look at something and close my eyes, I can first see a visual imagine, like the one I saw with my eyes open, this is like perceptual imagination, this is followed relatively quickly by a negative after image. This is then what I see perceptually, but I can still imagine what it looks like, initially my conceptual imagination is really vivid, and I can imagine all kinds of small details, but this fades quite quickly. Anyways I think that imagining things perceptually has many possibilities that conceptual imagination just can't do, because it won't get detailed enough, even if you get really good. 

The thing I'm wondering now if it's perhaps is it easier to do that connection of imagination to the visual system in the hypnagogic state. The things that makes it seem easier is that it seems this connection is partially there in this state, but what makes is a bit harder is I'm really sleepy in this state and have problems concentrating well, so let's see.

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## phasemancer

I tried moving "pixels" around in the hypnagogic state and it didn't seem like it was easier than otherwise. I'm able to have some control of the hypnagogic images, but it seems to be more like what I think about appears as images and thinking about different stuff changes them, while the background and noisy "pixels" stay the same. I tried focusing on the color dark red as I've done some times before and what happened was that the background changes to dark red, while the hypnagogic images stayed the same. I also tried in a lucid dream with similar results. I guess this technique doesn't really help with controlling hypnagogia or lucid dreams until you're already good at just doing it in the dark while awake.

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## MrAccident

I never managed to move any pixels really. The day I saw the square; I just tried moving the pixels, and just forming shapes; probably mostly - a square. And eventually because of that light spot happened - I managed to influence it directly. Some other white spots appeared; but I wasn't able to influence them.

It's pretty frustrating now that I know much more about how the brain works.
I know that all I see in a waking state - my brain creates by itself. And I know that if I see toothpicks that fell on the floor (like in "Rain Man") - my brain have created the image; so the information about the number of them, is obviously already there; but I can't reach all that.

About the states:
in the waking state, when you see light - your visual cortex creates the image according to the information from the eye.
Mylynes's way is probably relying on the fact that you're in the dark. So it's the same waking state; but you get minimum signal from the eye. Maybe it can also allow you to get into some kind of an hypnotic state; which may be what we are missing.
In a dream or HH - your subconscious naturally gains control over the visual cortex; and then you can remain your consciousness; and gain control, mostly over the subconscious, while it remains in control over the visual cortex. Maybe in a LD, you eventually can start having control more directly; but I never heard that the people who are good at LD, continue to have control, after they wake-up.

So I think these are different states; and different achievements can be made in them.

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## phasemancer

I haven't been able to move any single point of light by itself either. If I focus for a long time I can focus my attention on a single point of light, such that the others kinda fade a way a bit and it becomes stable, but I still can't move it. What I have been able to do is to move large clouds of light, to the left, right, up or down. Sometimes it has happened that clouds of different colors have filled different parts of my visual field and the whole thing started rotating, then I've been able to change switch the rotation direction between clockwise and counterclockwise. These clouds I can also change color of, mostly between blue and dark red. It seems really difficult to create any shapes though, it seems like by focusing on kinda pushing them in a particular direction, I can give these a nudge somehow, causing the overall movement to go in a particular direction, it's like changing the direction of the wind blowing on a cloudy sky. It seems I get better the more I do this, albeit really slowly, so maybe eventually I can create stable shapes.

But yeah, could be that what's needed for going further is something like an hypnotic state, maybe it's all about being able to sit in the dark without any internal chatter for a long enough time to get to right state and this is what you managed to do when you saw the square. If you do it enough, then you can get to the right state quicker and quicker.

Sensory deprivation can definitely cause hallucinations. Many, but not all, people who get blind develop something called Charles Bonnet Syndrome, basically hallucinations caused by sensory deprivation as part or all of the visual field is no longer constrained by sensory input, internally generated vision can take it's place in the conscious experience. These hallucinations could likely be completely controlled also, just it requires quite a bit of training to do so, and most never realize it's possible or don't figure out how. 

Scientific studies of people with Charles Bonnet Syndrome show that different types of hallucinations occur in different types of the brain. Data from the retina flows through the visual cortex through different regions, the first ones dealing with more simple processing of the image to detect lines and edges etc., as data flows through the regions the 3d images we experience consciously gets built up from simpler parts. Hallucinations caused by activity in lower areas are geometric, while hallucinations caused by activity in the higher areas can be of objects and scenes [1][2].  This TED talk about Charles Bonnet Syndrome is quite interesting and explains more about this.  In Charles Bonnet Syndrome, the patients say that the hallucinations are not related to what they think, but they do in any case sometimes blend into the environment, so it could be a mix or random brain activity causing random hallucinations, and subconscious brain activity that associates what is currently seen with something, causing an hallucination of whatever it's associated with.

Maybe in dreams your thought and expectations directly change the activity in the higher visual areas, thinking about or expecting particular object or things to appear triggers corresponding higher visual areas (or maybe simultaneous activity in some visual area and a brain area containing the thing which is thought about), generating an image of these things. On the other hand, maybe Mylnes's technique start by manipulating activity in lower visual areas, constructing the images from the bottom up.

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## MrAccident

In one LD that I had a great control - the control still was achieved by "summoning" what I wanted; and either I got something similar to the exact thing I wanted, or it came in a different manner then I expected.
So in the dream, I had my usual abstract imagination; I just could somehow influence reality (of the dream). So you probably influence the subconscious; which still controls the reality in the dream.
In this method I think it's direct control of what you see, through the will.

Interesting material; checking it out.

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## phasemancer

I have finally found an article on Subjective Control of Visual After Images, and not just forum posts. It's written more than a century ago, but seems to contain a lot of interesting information. 

Back to sensory deprivation, it also seems that most people will experience hallucinations after being blindfolded for something like 24 hours of being blindfolded.

The article Visual Hallucinations During Prolonged Blindfolding in Sighted Subjects has some interesting reports of these hallucinations. Some had simple geometric hallucinations, while others more complex dream-like ones and for some they progressed from simple to complex throughout a period of several days in which they were blindfolded.




> Subject 4, a 23-year-old man, reported seeing images as well as flashes of light within a few hours of being blindfolded.
> He saw outlines of puzzle pieces that, while moving, warped into other amorphous shapes and transformed in color from white to orange to red. He saw these perceptions when I think about my sense of sight. On day four, he reported seeing a triangle with bold dots at each vertex of the triangle and a large X with a light shining underneath it. Immediately before the report, the subject was engaged in a tactile stimulation task in which he was asked to discriminate five raised dots arranged in the form of an X on a domino piece.



The complex hallucinations seem in many cases to pop up because of an association to another perception. For example the above quoted person saw an X after feeling an X with his fingers.

According to that article tactile stimulation would cause the hallucinations to disappear, and previous fMRI studies have shown the visual cortex to become more easily stimulated after just a few minutes of complete visual deprivation.

None of the people in this study figured out how to control the hallucinations, except that the complex ones tended to correspond to their expectations or associations to things they felt or heard.

I think this supports that if you want the highest possible control of hallucinations, you should learn to control simple hallucinations, the eigenlicht, and the way to do this is to minimize all sensory input as much as possible, sit or lie completely and relax into a state of trance where some of the patterns, points and clouds of light can be controlled. In the after image article they change colors of after images, and it sounds like the way they did it was by gradually "filling" in the wanted color on the after image, afterwards the color would switch between the natural color of the afterimage and the "filled in" color. I suspect the way they filled in the color is pretty much the same as Mylynes' technique

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## MrAccident

In the article "Subjective Control of Visual After Images", does he explain the actual method of controlling the afterimages? I got to page 31 and gave-up.

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## phasemancer

Not very directly, but based on their description of how it happened I guessed it might be the same way as I'm able to change to color of clouds of light that I sometimes see behind my closed eyes so I tried this and it worked.

Basically what I do is to look at the afterimage and at the same time focus on a color, try to imagine that color, what it looks and how the afterimage would look if it had that color. After a little while the color of the afterimage changes. It seems though that the color sorta appears independently of the afterimage, and if I don't focus enough on the afterimage I get a colored blob that just overwrites the afterimage.

Here's another interesting thread:
Seeing with eyes closed - Topic

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## phasemancer

I found another description by George Ladd of his method:





> Very  frequently  I  have  only  to  choose  some simple  schema  such  as would  serve  as  a  frame-work  for  a  corresponding object,  fixate  it  in  idea  with  closed  eyes  and  will  steadily  to  have  it  appear,  and  in  due  time  it  will  more  or  less  completely  construct  itself in  the  retinal  field.



This does seem to fit how I'm able to make colors appear. I think of a color with my eyes closed and try to imagine it in front of me and it appears after a while. I still have difficulties with shapes, though now in the same way I can make a color on an afterimage. I still have problems to create new shapes and objects from this, but I think it's just about practice.

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## MrAccident

Alright, Thanks.

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## phasemancer

Andreas Mavromatis says in the book Hypnagogia that hallucinatory activity and hypnagogia both result of the following general conditions:

1) Psychophysical relaxation
2) Shift to 'passive volition' (marked by quantitative reduction of thought processes)
3) Shift to parasympathetic predominance (accompanied by receptive mode shift, that is, paying attention, but not scrutinizing stimuli)
4) Reduction of external perceptions and perception of the physical body
5) Psychological withdrawal (marked by inwardly turned diffuse absorbed attention and qualitative thought changes)
6) Decreased arousal (marked by shift to high amplitude low frequency EEG rhythms, mostly theta)
7) Being close to sleep. This is, however, not strictly necessary. A relaxed state of mostly theta rhythms is reached when one is falling asleep, but can be reached at any time by physical and mental relaxation.

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## Baron Samedi

When I first read this thread, I thought it was either a bunch of BS, or a skill unique to a select few. I then battled Mylynes in a shared dream, and let me tell you, he's a fuckin' freak. He turned into a large cell around me in outer space covered in giant eyes. 

Anyway, I have practiced this technique, and was able to change a computer screen from a light green tint to a pink tint and back. I also altered the shape and color of the afterimage of the sun reflecting off my cannabis while doing solar hits at noontime on a volcano. I now believe it is possible to do exactly as he said he does and have full-blown self induced hallucinations.

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## MrAccident

Basically meditation as we know it.
Alan Watts - Meditation - YouTube
(mostly the first part)

WakingNomad - What  Mylynes describes is simply doing what you do in a lucid dream; just when you are awake.

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## Baron Samedi

No, I don't do that in lucid dreams.

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## phasemancer

WakingNomad: 

When you change the computer tint to pink, do you focus on how the screen would look if it had the color tint and just look at it and concentrate on this until it starts changing?

When changing an afterimage do you think about the concept of the shape, for example did you just focus on the concept of the shape, e.g. think about the concept of a square or did you imagine the shape being a square and think about how it would look if it was a square?

I've been able to change color of some afterimages by just focusing on thinking really concentrated about the color I want to change to, but I haven't been able to change the shape yet.

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## MrAccident

WakingNomad - in a lucid dream, you don't see, hear, feel the touch, smell, taste - things that are not real?

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## Baron Samedi

Mr. Accident, what Mylynes is describing is a technique for self induced hallucinations. I do not do this technique in dreams. 

When I changed the colors and shapes, I didn't concentrate too hard, I just thought of only the color or shape I wanted. 

To answer your second question, Mr. Accident, I differentiate between waking hallucinations and dreams. As far as reality is concerned, that's a philosophical question.

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## binnen

Would mylynes technique for sense control work for 'curing' tinnitus? (high school pitched permanent noise, google it)

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## MrAccident

It can make the symptom go away; not the actual cause.

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## memtest81

I am trying to do this but i dont know what i should look for.

If i close my eyes, just now for example,while sitting in front of computer, wait few minutes, on inside zone of my eyelids they are appearing some random images, 2d flat, mostly grey color, it can be faces, places of nature, and some of them are very engaging,it is just like watching national geographic, when i start doing it while preparing to sleep while in bed, they very very fast take me to sleep without me even knowing it....
they look something like this, i made example here, but they are changing, sometimes they have much better contrast almost with details....

like this:



so is this good starting point, or this STATIC IMAGES op said in first post, should be something else, different from what i wrote ?
He said that it looks like pixels or dots...
Sometimes when i concentrate on inner side of my closed eyelids i see such pixels, like very small white dots which are brighter than rest of vision, but there are only 3 or 4 such dots.
Mostly when i close my eyes i see something like moving clouds, noise.

What should i look for exactly ?

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## MrAccident

About the white "pixels" - look for my first post here, on page 3 (Ctrl+F and "09-01-2012 10:02 AM").

The pixels he's talking about are "Closed-eye hallucination" - Closed-eye hallucination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What you describing is hypnagogic images. It's not what this technique is about. But since no one here was able to succeed in MyLines's technique anyway - I think it's as good of a place to start as any.
I think that what you need to do is to establish the first control over your visual field (in your case - the HI); and then you can continue developing it; and then the sky is the limit.

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## memtest81

Ok, when i see this spot, i can make him to move and draw something, like square or triangle.
But this last only few seconds and disapears quickly.

So now i dont know what to concentrate on:
1- on those pixels
2.on white noise,clouds on black back of eyelids
3.on those spontaneous images i posted above
4.on visualizing some objects like in this video:

How to self Induce Hallucinations - YouTube

and looking into comments you will also see that somebody showed him exactly this thread and author told that what he is doing is practically "pretty much the same idea".
and its curious because Mylynes said that visualizing wont help...but again Sythix told that it will help:
http://www.dreamviews.com/f12/induci...art-2-a-29491/

also
Claude de Contrecoeur, biologist neurochemical something also said (which is almost like in sythix thread) that visualizations will help:
How to generate CONTROLLED HALLUCINATIONS


So i have no idea now what to concentrate on from those 4 things

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## Baron Samedi

Experiment. Experience is the greatest teacher.

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## MrAccident

A good article by Claude de Contrecoeur (who ever he may be, hah).
After reading this article - I actually read another article by him that explains a lot about the subject - From DREAM to CONSCIOUSNESS

And simply put - the experience of reality (consciousness), is generated by the brain. So to take sight for instance - In waking life the region in the brain that is responsible to generate sight - the Visual Cortex - is generating the image that you see, according to the signal from the eye -- exoreality; in a Lucid Dream - the visual cortex is generating the image, in the same way, according to the signals from the memory etc -- the endoreality.
It's not that the whole information comes from the eye or memory; only the "commend" - what to generate, comes from them.

What we are trying to do here, whether by MyLines's technique, or in a different way, is to control what is being generated in waking life, by our will -- endoreality.
The best first step should probably be - to generate something from the endoreality. The second step is to start controlling it.
It seems you already have some of those hallucinations; and even some control over them. So I think you should just evolve both things; very much in the way the previous comment suggested.
And tell us about the progress, of-course. :-)

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## MrAccident

About Brian Masih's video - he have done what I have done in my only successful attempt.
As with LDs - people have slightly different brains\minds; so some things come easily to some people, while difficult to others. I think it just came easily to him. Seems also that you have naturally more success then the rest of us.

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## Alter

Hey guys! My apologies for being gone so long.. Without going into any detail other than I used to smoke marijuana, I just got out of jail yesterday. Was locked up for a little over a year and a half. So that is where I have been and it is very nice to be out and back online! I have skimmed over most of the posts here and will read them all in detail soon but it is nice to see that people have still been playing around with this topic.

For those who do not know, me and Mylynes are close RL friends and grew up together. We are both mostly self taught and did a lot of our practicing together. We started back when we were 4-5 years old and back then these things (Exerting control over our senses) were just games that we played so we both tend to lack terminology to adequately describe our experiences. Back before I got arrested most of what he could do I could do, and vise-versa. He seemed to be getting more and more into shared dreaming and though I tried I was never able to have much luck in this area intentionally. I think I may have been a bit better at raw sensory manipulation though as that is what I liked to focus on. Now though I haven't yet contacted him so I'm not sure what he has been up to for the past 19 months or how his abilities have improved.

I think one good thing about my experience is that I had 19 months of nothing but free time and about ALL I did was dream. Every single day I would dream at night and daydream (awake) during the day. Me and Mylynes pretty much use the same manipulation system and what is described in his tutorial is the very beginner (Though very important) basics and I think I might could help take things up through the next stages of development if people are still interested in this. This technique is what I use both while asleep and awake to dive into my own worlds. It sounds sort of like level 5 on the closed eye hallucination wiki.

So every day I would sit on my bunk and practice. Sometimes I would experiment or push myself with mental workouts and other times I would just explore other worlds of my own creations. I am also a video-game programmer and during my relax times I would often play one of a few virtual reality games in my head. At least that seems like a good way to describe some of my daydreaming sessions.

I completely override all of my senses and immerse myself in worlds of my own creation. Usually it seems easier to override a sense when there is less input from the real world. So it is harder to create audio around loud/distracting noises, harder to create visuals when around bright light, ect. I could already fully immerse myself in a lit room before jail as long as it wasn't super bright but it was way more difficult. It is almost like posting an image over the image of the real world, so the created image has to be brighter than the (real) one behind it or else the created image will be transparent, allowing the (real) image behind it to shine through. This one area I worked on a lot though and now I can fairly easily reach full immersion even in a very noisy and bright environment (aka jail). When fully immersed in my own little "alternate reality bubble" someone would have to either use my name or shout in my face for me to really hear it and someone would have to shine a bright flashlight or something right in my eyes and wave it around for it to seep through into my vision. Experimenting showed me that bright lights will get blocked out fast unless they are moving around.

An interesting phenomenon to note is that for some reason, when in a sleeping state I have noticed that I seem to have greatly increased mental capacity. Like access to an insane amount of memories from previous trips to the dream world that I simply don't have access to while awake unless I focus on them during or after my wake-up. Also when pushing my senses to their limits and beyond it seems that my focus can expand and split MUCH more when dreaming than when awake.

One exercise I like to do is to create a chess game (including board, pieces, and while awake I play against conscious self but somehow while asleep I can create a dream character to play against so I guess I kind of play against my subconscious) and keep constant track of all the pieces on the board. I then bump things up in difficulty by adding another simultaneous game, and another, and so on until I start to lose track of the pieces. When awake I can fairly easily keep track of 5 simultaneous games without much strain which may lead to headache lol, but when asleep I can fairly easily keep track of 30 simultaneous games and at times can kind of zone into it and keep up with 100+ games with a bit of strain but not too many noticed position errors (when I notice a misplaced piece I either fix it or drop the game). Another thing about the exercise is that when asleep I also split my senses so that I see each board and "computer" opponent through separate eyes and move the pieces with separate hands in order to make things more challenge and because I like to work on splitting my senses.

Without focusing on chess it is pretty insane how many splits of my senses I can create to go off and dream mindless things like slaying monsters in one of my VR games. 100 splits is kind of like being able to have 100 completely separate dreams at one time. Anyways, I find it interesting that I am capable of more in the sleeping dream-state than in the waking dream-state.

All of what I do in both dream states is based on a VERY advanced form of the tutorial shown on the first page of this thread. A lot of how to get from there to where I am currently at is a LOT of experimentation and practice. I may be able to help some with advancing, though a lot of this is just.. very hard to put into words that describe the "how" to getting the technique to work, but I will spend some time thinking on these things and how to describe without adequate terminology. Depending on how things go I may even work on a part 2 to my friend's tutorial though no promises yet on completing it.

I will be a bit busy with getting set up with my P.O., looking for work, getting my new place and net (at a friend's place using his net right now) set up, ect but I will be checking in and keeping this thread in my thoughts. I find this thread much more interesting than the shared dreaming right now because I didn't have much luck in that area and just spent the past 19 months working on this in a state of never ending dream. Also a bit shocked now having finally returned to reality longer than the 5 minutes it takes to go to the chow hall, eat, and return.. though it is very nice to be out and I'm very happy to be back on Dreamviews finally.

Hopefully nothing crazy happens and I will be around to stay this time so I can help work on this thread.

Feel free to ask questions and I will try to answer what I can.

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## MrAccident

Hey, welcome back!
I don't know if I'm talking to MyLines's twin or another personality or what...
Anyway long speeches is not my thing; so I'll jump right to business.  ::-P: 
Before helping us advance - I think it's crucial that we'll... START!!
It seems quite a coincidence that you both have developed this ability; when the rest of us didn't. Or... and hopefully - there's something missing in the tutorial, maybe?!
I'm actually practicing this thing till today. I thought about the possibility of being able to see what I imagine, like in a lucid dream, while awake, a short time before I got to this thread actually. It's like a destiny kind of a thing. X-D
Anyway, I'll try to achieve this thing to the day I die; and hopefully succeed to. :-\ Just to illustrate how important this thing is to me.

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## Alter

This is pretty much what we have spent very much of our time on since age 4-5. We both kinda figured things out on our own and shared our experiences with each other, competed at controlling our dreams and while awake mostly our vision. We didn't know what the "pixels" were, we just knew that most people never seemed to take the time to notice them, but could if they tried.. and that the "pixels" could be coaxed into doing things. LDing seemed to come naturally to both of us and the next step was to work on control and basically become gods of our own dimensions lol.

We played with this stuff off and on over the years but really spent a huge amount of time practicing from early on, and still practice and try to improve on what we can do. I don't think I'll ever reach a point where i can't improve anymore.

So yea, there is a LOT missing from the tutorial because it is kind of like baby basics, but I'll see what I can do to add at least the next step to the tutorial because it would probably be hard to fly before learning how to crawl. =)

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## MonochromeBaku

It's good to see that I'm not just crazy seeing the "Canvas" of static as you call it. At one point in my life I noticed it, and when I think about it I see it clearly even in a bright room with my eyes open. Controlling it is a bit... harder. Trying it now, I was pretty quickly able to create some geometric shapes with your method, but with color all I could get was a few small clumps of blue (And I couldn't choose where to put them).

But I'll keep trying. When you said this:




> Your body could be an entire planet that is connected to the senses of multiple species. You can tap into the sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell senses and more from billions of entities simultaneously while still preserving crystal clear quality.



I decided I would focus on this. That sounds... unbeliveable. I can't come close to imagining it. It's so far outside the human experience that I just can't. Until then it sounded intriguing, but that made my mouth drop.

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## Alter

> It's good to see that I'm not just crazy seeing the "Canvas" of static as you call it. At one point in my life I noticed it, and when I think about it I see it clearly even in a bright room with my eyes open. Controlling it is a bit... harder. Trying it now, I was pretty quickly able to create some geometric shapes with your method, but with color all I could get was a few small clumps of blue (And I couldn't choose where to put them).
> 
> But I'll keep trying. When you said this:
> 
> 
> I decided I would focus on this. That sounds... unbeliveable. I can't come close to imagining it. It's so far outside the human experience that I just can't. Until then it sounded intriguing, but that made my mouth drop.



Right, it's very possible as I like to do those kind of exercises as well. Sometimes expanding my focus/awareness to planet size and beyond and sometimes focusing in on more narrow details like a bunch of chess games. But both at the same time is really difficult. Mylynes was always a bit more expandy than me, but I have also been working on that the past 19 months.

19 month long dream was a pretty crazy experience.. only coming back enough to make my feet take me to chow, shovel food down throat, then return to bunk and the dreamworld.

Anyways, once you start noticing the canvas regularly, you start to notice it all the time and it never really goes away. Even when "Painted" on you can still make out the "pixels" if you are attentive. You can make them more or less noticeable though, sort of like the difference between the images shown on a super nes and watching an hd movie on a nice bigscreen highdef tv.

As far as the basics of manipulating the "pixels" go I think Mylynes said it very well:




> It's similar to training a muscle that you have never really controlled before. If you are having trouble getting it do what you want keep this in mind. Telling yourself you know a group of particles are blue and in the shape of a circle won't work. You need to find out how to directly manipulate them. You have to manipulate them simply by doing it. It's like lifting your arm. You don't look at your arm and ask it to move.. you just move it without thinking too much into it. My technique should be done about the same way.



To get good at this you have to workout your mental muscles by experimenting until you succeed at a manipulation so that you know what it felt like. Then repeating that same sensation until it becomes easier and more natural.

Some basic first exercises:
1. Focus on a color, any color but cycle through different ones. Try to make that color appear. Doesn't matter if it's just 1 or a few "pixels" or as much of your vision as you can, just play around with it.

2. A step between colors and forming shapes and objects would be to focus on the motion of the "pixels" or static and try to alter it in various ways. Later on it may be useful to form a shape by focusing on each individual "pixel" like Mylynes but it may be easier to manipulate the "pixels" as groups. If you play around with this you will likely notice various kinds of natural move ment such as waves or ripples:
For me, when relaxing and not going into my own world, specially in the beginning, there would be a lot of 3d waves and flowing that looks very similar to this but highly "pixelized" static:

And sometimes ripples which look much like this would form:


3. Shapes/Objects
So watch the movement and see if you can sort of coax whole groups of "pixels" to change their movement patterns. After playing with this for a while it becomes much easier to form objects. Strangely it may also be easier when starting off to form fully colored and detailed images such as your parents faces, than it would be to form perfect geometrical shapes. Even if not fully detailed, at least for me it seemed easier to form more complex images than simple ones, sort of like this: 

But again highly pixelized.

But once you start getting better at this and get your "muscles" built up, a really really good exercise that Mylynes mentioned and that I still use myself is the chess game, though start off with just 1 game. Or if you don't know how to play chess and don't care to learn then checkers could also work. It really takes a lot to play a game of chess in your head.

The chess exercise is also a pretty fun way to (also good practice though) show off to friends lol. You can have them set up a board while you are blindfolded and facing away from the board, then you play against them by having them tell you their moves and you telling them your moves. Always fun to beat people without even looking at the pieces. =)

Oh yea and I also really like what was posted earlier in this thread:




> By closing my eyes somewhat tightly I could see a number of 'bits' of colored light upon my retinal field. Selecting one of these colors I concentrated my attention upon it, and it seemed to grow of its own accord into a perfect circle. I then willed that this circle should become an ellipse; and without the faintest 'muscular sensations' (except the vague strained feeling of purely mental concentration) the circle 'sagged ' into an ellipse
> 
> The color of the 'Eigenlicht' had (ordinarily on beginning the experiment) the appearance of a dancing mass of vari-colored dust. As soon as attention and will had gained control of the mass, the color seemed to be at their mercy.



I like the way they word things and describe the phenomenon. I g2g for now but will be back later.

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## ThantosAraiun

I've been reading this thread for a while and I'm wondering while you can do visual hallucinations, is it possible to do auditory and the other senses? (created a profile just for this question.  :tongue2: )
Also, I have attempted to try this before, but I had nothing good to cover my eyes until now (Sleeping mask) and I notice I'm able to move the pixels somewhat well.  I notice it's easier to do in level 3 of closed eye hallucination through concentration, as I turned a white blob into a cat, for less than a second, but it kept looping the image when it disappeared.  By that I meant it was somewhat of similar to a GIF.
Another question for Alter, how long do you expect this to take if I practiced every day for at least 6 hours? (just for example.)
Where did Mylynes go? XD

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## Alter

> I've been reading this thread for a while and I'm wondering while you can do visual hallucinations, is it possible to do auditory and the other senses? (created a profile just for this question. )
> Also, I have attempted to try this before, but I had nothing good to cover my eyes until now (Sleeping mask) and I notice I'm able to move the pixels somewhat well.  I notice it's easier to do in level 3 of closed eye hallucination through concentration, as I turned a white blob into a cat, for less than a second, but it kept looping the image when it disappeared.  By that I meant it was somewhat of similar to a GIF.
> Another question for Alter, how long do you expect this to take if I practiced every day for at least 6 hours? (just for example.)
> Where did Mylynes go? XD



Audio, visual, touch, taste, smell, ect can all be controlled. I can even smoke an imaginary joint that actually gets me high somehow though I'm not sure exactly how that works lol.

And yes for me as well starting off the more complex objects were easier to deal with than perfect simple shapes for some reason. Like, Mylynes I can also manipulate each "pixel" separately but it seems more efficient to move them in groups. Less strain on the mind.

As for how long it takes I would say it would differ vastly from person to person. I spent a huge chunk of my life(since age 4-5) working on this (about 20 years) but it was a very long drawn out process of experimentation between me and Mylynes. If I had known then what I know now I would have likely progressed much faster so I believe with some sort of guide such as this tutorial, a lot of the time can be cut out. It still takes effort and regular practice to build up the "mental muscles" required to go on to more advanced exercises though. So yea some people may pick this up fast and others more slowly but I think that anyone with a bit of dedication could progress MUCH faster than I did thanks to resources like this thread.

As for Mylynes, not sure what he is up to. Haven't had any contact with him since before I was arrested. Last I heard he was working in the military, spec ops group he called a shadow group in the cia that I don't know much about.

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## snoop

I've noticed what you guys are calling "pixels" since I was a kid. It's most prominent in a dark room, and is usually a bright green colour. If I let it go on it's own, it'll run along the contours of the room and coalesce into expanding and contracting green that is very fluid. I've been able to manipulate it to a degree, even into faces and objects, etc. I've just not been able to actually literally see a static image of something. Ever since picking up drug habits, I've acquired HPPD, and I now experience this phenomenon the entire time I am awake whether I like it or not. I've also got a lot of "visual snow" that looks like a lot of multi coloured grains constantly buzzing, like the black and white ones you'd see on a TV, but again multi coloured. It's actually pretty much exactly like the image you (Alter) posted with the blue expanding in it. The blue is like what the green I mentioned earlier is. I've managed to changed the colours before, but it's kind of difficult. Everything is much easier to do if I've taken some sort of hallucinogenic though.

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## Alter

> I've noticed what you guys are calling "pixels" since I was a kid. It's most prominent in a dark room, and is usually a bright green colour. If I let it go on it's own, it'll run along the contours of the room and coalesce into expanding and contracting green that is very fluid. I've been able to manipulate it to a degree, even into faces and objects, etc. I've just not been able to actually literally see a static image of something. Ever since picking up drug habits, I've acquired HPPD, and I now experience this phenomenon the entire time I am awake whether I like it or not. I've also got a lot of "visual snow" that looks like a lot of multi coloured grains constantly buzzing, like the black and white ones you'd see on a TV, but again multi coloured. It's actually pretty much exactly like the image you (Alter) posted with the blue expanding in it. The blue is like what the green I mentioned earlier is. I've managed to changed the colours before, but it's kind of difficult. Everything is much easier to do if I've taken some sort of hallucinogenic though.



I experimented a little bit with hallucinogens a long time ago, and it has its similarities, but most drugs probably not very healthy and I wouldn't reccommend recreation use of them. At this point I can sort of "trip" at any time I want without needing any drugs at all. By trip I mean having crazy visual shows or even withdrawing into an entire new fantasy world, though for some reason I can also smoke an imaginary blunt/joint and feel a strong body/head high.

I'm not sure since I've been gone a while but I think there may be a thread somewhere about drugs in dreams.

-Edit-
Found it. =)
http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...-you-done.html

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## ThantosAraiun

I've seen Sythix's tutorial for inducing hallucinations and it says to visualize, are there disadvantages to this compared to just shaping the pixels?  I could guess one could be as not being able to shape your objects before seeing them.  I seem to progress faster in it though.

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## Alter

F*** man, am really sorry guys.. after all this time I was really looking forward to be back.. This pisses me off so much.

Bad news..

So my P.O. went out of his way to go and complain to my judge.. and somehow he ended up getting my computer rights taken away. So now I am not allowed to be on any device that can connect to the internet.

No idea why the heck this is happening but I do plan to lawyer up and fight this.....

In the mean time I wont be able to get on here, though I think I may still work on the tutorial and if something happens to get thrown together then I may be able to get my brother or someone to post it.

Again really sorry about this though I hope to be back as soon as I can. =(

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## MrAccident

snoop - That's interesting that your noise is green. Usually it's reddish. Green is the opposite of red in the brain. It usually happens in an after image, for example.
The blue expending picture is what usually happens in some state, right before falling asleep.
It happened to me a few times right after I snoozed and snapped out of it right before falling asleep.

Maybe all that means you are in that, hypnagogic kind of a state, most of the time.
I don't know what that means for the method exactly; but maybe it should be easier for you to have vivid imagination.



Alter - you'll be back soon, I'm sure. Today you can get access to the Internet through any cellphone. You can even get a chip in the brain, for god's sake; so it's totally ridiculous.

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## snoop

Well I don't know if this makes any difference but I'm diagnosed with ADHD predominantely inattentive. The only problem with that label is ADHD is kind of a spectrum disorder imo, there's nothing terribly specific in one part of the brain that causes it.  Technically Bipolar Disorder isn't out of the picture for me (rather than ADHD), my uncle has Bipolar and apparently it's more common to have it if you have relatives with the disorder. But yes, the colour with my eyes open in the dark (or even in the light sometimes) or with my eyes closed is GREEN and usually leaves a reddish afterimage if anything. I think the red comes from the contrast of green against black.

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## melanieb

**Thread moved to Dream Control section**


Hope things get better soon, Alter.

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## transflux

I've read the first post only and skimmed through the rest and to be honest, this practice does not make any sense at all. The space for effective visualization is "beyond" the entopic layer.

Establishing entopic awareness before you pass beyond is a good thing though, it will help with remembering your experiences. Strong visions also have a fleeting entopic residue when they collapse. Another use of entopics is to anchor/power intentions. Besides that, they don't seem to have any practical application - they are just noise from the primary visual cortices. 

Psychic/subjective information would have a hard time to emerge to this level. You may occasionally get persistent entopic patterns, such as symbols or mandalas with open eyes, that don't see to go away for hours, but they are probably gifts from your higher self or beings.

A fully active third eye will provide a visual overlay of extra information, but if your goal is to see things that don't exist in some way or form, it probably won't happen. 

As for dreaming, you don't have to close your eyes to "visually overwrite" objects. It's just a matter of pointing at things, literally or figuratively. Although some dream environment may resist, it's a reliable way to obliterate subjective layers in dreaming. 

And finally, I'm not getting good vibes from the original poster to say the least. I'd stay away from this, there are plenty of proven stuff to do instead.

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## Ailita

OMG.. Is Alter or Mylynes still around? Anyone know how I could contact either of them? I've been lurking around for a while but then saw this and yea.. I would like to speak with them if possible.

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## Chimpertainment

Ailita. You told me today that someone met you in a dream and told you to come here to dream views and when you woke up, you came right here. That would imply that this was your first time on dream views. So how could you be lurking? 


*Spoiler* for _ [18:11:04_: 



 Ailita [[email protected]] has joined #LucidDreaming
[18:11:05] <iBot> Welcome to Dreamviews, Ailita
[18:11:10] <Ailita> hi
[18:11:23] <Ailita> anyone here?
[18:11:38] <@Scionox|Asleep> Hey
[18:11:46] <@Scionox|Asleep> Welcome to Dreamviews!
[18:11:51] <@Scionox|Asleep> !back
[18:11:51] Scionox|Asleep [[email protected]] is now known as Scionox
[18:11:59] <%Chimpertainment|Away> !back
[18:12:00] Chimpertainment|Away [[email protected]] is now known as Chimpertainment
[18:12:08] <%Chimpertainment> there are now
[18:12:08] <Ailita> XD
[18:12:09] <%Chimpertainment> howdy
[18:12:22] <Ailita> does anyone know alter or mylynes?
[18:13:08] superGoku` [[email protected]] has quit IRC: Quit: Bouncer bounces.
[18:13:09] Scionox has no clue O.=.o
[18:13:11] fOrceez [[email protected]] has joined #LucidDreaming
[18:13:15] <Ailita> he told me to come look for him here and use those names.. then I found some threads of theirs on the forum so I joined and pmed them and stuff
[18:13:19] DreamBot [[email protected]] has set mode +v fOrceez
[18:14:28] <%Chimpertainment> i dont know either
[18:14:37] <%Chimpertainment> i dont think ive ever seen them on chat
[18:15:05] <Ailita> it freaked me out a little bit when that happened because he told me in a dream, and that is a lucid dreaming forum, and has those user names.. he told me to wake up then and immediately go and look it up
[18:15:41] <@Scionox> Huh
[18:15:50] <%Chimpertainment> {:]
[18:15:54] <%Chimpertainment> interesting
[18:16:07] Chimpertainment looks for the user names
[18:16:08] <%Chimpertainment> :p
[18:16:10] Dark_Merlin [[email protected]] has joined #LucidDreaming
[18:16:14] DreamBot [[email protected]] has set mode +v Dark_Merlin
[18:16:16] DreamBot [[email protected]] has set mode +h Dark_Merlin
[18:16:18] <%Chimpertainment> !dvprofile alter
[18:17:14] <Ailita> its kind of scary.. i hope I get a pm back soon.. I also pmed their friends cause it looks like they have not been active in a while
[18:17:21] <%Chimpertainment> hmm
[18:17:27] <%Chimpertainment> no reason to be scared
[18:17:35] <%Chimpertainment> they may not even remember it happened btw
[18:17:39] <Ailita> Alter Last Activity 07-25-2013 04:09 AM
[18:17:51] <Ailita> they gave me a password to give them
[18:18:05] <%Chimpertainment> and mylynes last activity was 7-17-2012
[18:18:15] <Ailita> 2012..
[18:18:37] <Ailita> his friend nomad seems more active
[18:19:08] <Ailita> its scary cause this guy just invaded my dreams.. and he himself was scary too
[18:19:10] <%Chimpertainment> yeah, nomad has been a long time member
[18:19:20] <%Chimpertainment> well thats even more interesting
[18:19:37] <%Chimpertainment> nomad in the past has made a habit of attempting to invade peoples dreams in order to make them lucid
[18:19:39] <Ailita> hmm, think nomad might be back soon?
[18:20:30] <%Chimpertainment> he is always around, but not always active on the forum
[18:20:39] <Ailita> i have to leave soonish but will return either friday or saturday.
[18:20:54] <Ailita> he is usually in the chat then?
[18:20:59] <%Chimpertainment> perhaps you could try communicating with them in-dream and ask them to contact you on the forum?
[18:21:12] <%Chimpertainment> nope..most forum users dont frequent chat
[18:21:28] <%Chimpertainment> youd have better luck with the pm
[18:21:39] <Ailita> eh, i dunno if I would want that guy in my dreams again.. and plus he is the 1 who told me to come here..
[18:21:50] <%Chimpertainment> yeah
[18:21:50] <Ailita> ok well pms sent then
[18:21:53] <%Chimpertainment> just so you know
[18:22:05] <%Chimpertainment> nomads technique was to scare people and induce nightmares
[18:22:12] wolfspy [[email protected]] has joined #LucidDreaming
[18:22:17] <wolfspy> hi
[18:22:20] <%Chimpertainment> the bigger the emotional reaction, the more likely the person is to become lucid
[18:22:23] <%Chimpertainment> hi wolfspy
[18:22:23] <Ailita> ... =(
[18:22:29] <@Scionox> Hey
[18:22:49] <wolfspy> Are shared dreams real?
[18:22:53] <%Chimpertainment> for that reason, nomad would appear as a dragon if i remember correctly..to scare people "awake"/lucid
[18:23:03] <%Chimpertainment> well, tonight is just a shared dreams night
[18:23:05] <%Chimpertainment> lol
[18:23:27] <wolfspy> What
[18:23:32] <Ailita> if you happen to see him while I am away, could you please pass on the message to tell them to pm me and not enter my dreams?
[18:23:35] <%Chimpertainment> unless you both are just members trying to play tricks..
[18:23:35] <wolfspy> sorry, im really new to Dream Views
[18:23:37] <%Chimpertainment> hmmm
[18:24:11] <%Chimpertainment> hmm...sure Ailita...another thing you can do is before going to sleep, say that you dont want to be disturbed
[18:24:11] <@Scionox> @wolfspy If you believe then yes, everything is possible in dreams
[18:24:20] <Ailita> I just joined a few minutes ago
[18:24:45] <wolfspy> But it isnt really /your/ dream
[18:24:59] <%Chimpertainment> i believe you Ailita, its an amazing coincidence is all  :smiley: 
[18:25:30] <@Scionox> @Ailita It's an awesome lucid dreaming forum anyway, if you want to start with it
[18:25:44] <@Scionox> Think positive
[18:25:47] <%Chimpertainment> Ailita: remember, you dont have to let anyone in...set the intention to not be disturbed before you go to sleep
[18:25:50] <rumpel> hellooooo
[18:25:50] <%Chimpertainment> and that ^
[18:25:51] <Ailita> this forum looks interesting though.. how would it even be possible for someone to enter my dream? am I maybe just crazy? 
[18:25:52] <rumpel> mates
[18:25:53] <rumpel> whats up
[18:26:07] <rumpel> well you can say what ure dreaming
[18:26:09] <rumpel> and tell pthers
[18:26:14] <rumpel> so they can rebuild it in their ld
[18:26:19] <rumpel> and "be in yur dream"
[18:26:50] <wolfspy> wait
[18:26:57] <@Scionox> @Ailita Everything is possible in dreams, though for shared dreaming strong connection to a person is usually required
[18:27:00] <%Chimpertainment> Ailita: shared dreaming is contraversial...but you seem to have had quite a striking experience that lends weight to shared dreaming being real...you are not crazy...if you take a look in the beyond dreaming section of the forum, some of your questions might be answered
[18:27:05] <%Chimpertainment> !dvsearch beyond dreaming
[18:27:14] <wolfspy> did someone just ask a question about the same thing as me?
[18:27:20] <Ailita> so your saying you think it is possible for someone to invade somone elses dreams though? because that sounds really scifi to me..
[18:27:22] <rumpel> hah doesnt work, Chimpertainment 
[18:27:26] <%Chimpertainment> well shit...lemme grab a link Ailita
[18:27:48] <%Chimpertainment> wolfspy: no, ailita had a shared dreaming experience and came on right before you
[18:27:55] <rumpel> well i dont think its possible to "invite" someone when hes drrming, but your subconsious can make a... errr person who acts like your friend
[18:28:10] <Ailita> i dont know this guy at all
[18:28:11] <wolfspy> oh lol
[18:28:17] <rumpel> but thats just my not-being-a-real-lucid-dreamer-experience
[18:28:25] <wolfspy> It
[18:28:27] <wolfspy> oops
[18:28:34] <wolfspy> didnt mean to send that
[18:28:51] <Ailita> why me?
[18:29:03] <wolfspy> rumpel, I read posts where they had the same dream on dv though
[18:29:06] <@Scionox> @Ailita I don't know much on shared dreaming topic aside from requirement of strong connection
[18:29:22] <Ailita> mm
[18:29:31] <wolfspy> like they saw a dj with the same dream as them, only in the perspective of the other perosn
[18:29:33] <%Chimpertainment> ailit...here is the beyond dreaming forum: Beyond Dreaming 
[18:29:41] <@Scionox> Do you have any friends that are into LDing?
[18:29:43] <%Chimpertainment> we also have a group of dreamers that research shared dreaming
[18:29:56] <wolfspy> Scionox, not that I know of
[18:30:01] <Ailita> i dunno what kind of strong connection I would have with someone I never met before though
[18:30:13] <@Scionox> Well
[18:30:19] <Ailita> freaky
[18:30:36] <@Scionox> You can't say you never met because he didn't looked familiar
[18:30:37] <%Chimpertainment> it could be that there was some kind of attraction...im not sure the exact mechanics of it all
[18:30:47] <@Scionox> Remember we can have different forms in dreams
[18:30:53] <Ailita> sjpppppppppppppppppih
[18:30:55] rumpel^ [[email protected]] has joined #LucidDreaming
[18:31:11] <%Chimpertainment> yea...and your dreaming self can communicate with others while not knowing it
[18:31:12] <rumpel^> wtffffffffff
[18:31:14] <rumpel^> internet for fucks sackle
[18:31:18] rumpel [[email protected]] has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 90 seconds
[18:31:21] <Ailita> lol my kitteh said hello =^_^=
[18:31:22] <%Chimpertainment> lol
[18:31:26] <rumpel^> wolfspy, what came after your "it"?
[18:31:32] <%Chimpertainment> hello kitteh
[18:31:39] <@Scionox> Hey
[18:32:13] <%Chimpertainment> important thing is that shared dreaming is nothing to be afraid of...and you are not going crazy  :smiley: 
[18:32:17] <Ailita> the password he gave me is strange too..
[18:32:25] <wolfspy> rumpel^, I reaworded the sentance
[18:32:26] <@Scionox> What Chimp said
[18:32:36] <@Scionox> Dreams can't hurt ya
[18:32:45] <@Scionox> Shared or not
[18:32:45] <rumpel^> ah okay, wolfspy
[18:32:46] <Ailita> birthday banana......
[18:32:50] <%Chimpertainment> lol
[18:32:51] <Ailita> <,>
[18:32:55] <rumpel^> ive never seen you here, wolfspy  :O
[18:32:58] <wolfspy> well
[18:33:05] <wolfspy> that would be because Im new
[18:33:06] <rumpel^> !joindate wolfspy
[18:33:07] <iBot> Join Date: February 12, 2012
[18:33:10] <rumpel^> oh hm
[18:33:22] <Ailita> my mind cannot comprehend exactly what is happening here..
[18:33:35] <wolfspy> magic
[18:33:47] <@Scionox> Dreaming!..
[18:33:54] <wolfspy> Does anyone know about that new ld aid?
[18:34:00] <@Scionox> ?
[18:34:24] <@Scionox> What kind of aid/
[18:34:25] <@Scionox> ?
[18:34:42] <Ailita> what kinda password is birthday banana?
[18:34:47] <wolfspy> ill just find it again :/
[18:34:50] <rumpel^> wolfspy how r u
[18:35:09] <@Scionox> Passwords can be anything, lol
[18:35:14] <%Chimpertainment> i dunno...maybe you are supposed to tell them that in order to ensure that it was really a shared dream
[18:35:22] <wolfspy> LUCI
[18:35:37] <@Scionox> Err
[18:35:51] <@Scionox> Please no linking kickstarters
[18:35:54] <%Chimpertainment> shared dreamers like to use passwords in order to verify that the person they are dreaming of is a human
[18:35:57] <Ailita> a shared nightmare
[18:36:04] <@Scionox> Or sites with sales overall
[18:36:09] <wolfspy> oh
[18:36:10] <wolfspy> oops
[18:36:12] <wolfspy> w
[18:36:12] <wolfspy> ell
[18:36:20] <Ailita> you dont know how crazy it was..
[18:36:24] <rumpel^> holy crap they got a lot fo mone
[18:36:25] <wolfspy> does anyone know what a watts dry electrode is?
[18:36:33] <Ailita> it felt like I was in there for years....
[18:36:39] <@Scionox> As for% that thing, it"s fake
[18:36:48] <@Scionox> From what i know
[18:36:50] <wolfspy> because im thinking about making a EEG and ive never heard of one before
[18:37:32] <Ailita> brb for a sec, but i g2g very soon
[18:37:47] <@Scionox> @rumpel They didn't
[18:37:48] <wolfspy> the only dry electrode ive he
[18:37:54] <wolfspy> STUPID ENTER BUTTON
[18:38:01] <rumpel^> why not Scionox 
[18:38:05] <wolfspy> heard of is this http://www.gtec.at/var/plain_site/st...eft_medium.jpg
[18:38:14] <@Scionox> Because it was fake and it was cancelled
[18:38:22] <wolfspy> oh
[18:38:32] <rumpel^> ah okay
[18:38:46] <wolfspy> who are you talking to
[18:38:47] <@Scionox> There are legit similar devices
[18:38:48] <rumpel^> that sucks if people use kickstarter to put up fake :
[18:38:53] <wolfspy> oh
[18:39:14] <%Chimpertainment> Ailita: http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...ream-faqs.html
[18:39:50] <@Scionox> I am not into any of them though, so can"t help
[18:39:52] <wolfspy> thanks Chimpertainment 
[18:39:58] <%Chimpertainment> btw..take all that with a  grain  of salt
[18:40:02] <%Chimpertainment> everyones experience is different
[18:40:05] <@Scionox> ^
[18:41:01] Ametam [[email protected]] has joined #LucidDreaming
[18:41:15] <Ailita> kk back i got 5 min
[18:41:16] Chimpertainment 's cat has decided to commandeer his desk
[18:41:51] <@Scionox> wb
[18:42:33] <Ailita> i will look at the link later.. need to bookmark
[18:42:54] <%Chimpertainment> boomark this too http://www.dreamviews.com/internatio...eaming-project
[18:43:05] <%Chimpertainment> thats the shared dreaming project some dv members are working on
[18:43:34] <wolfspy> wasent there a crossroads thing too
[18:43:51] <Ametam> Chimpertainment: How is that going?
[18:43:59] <Ametam> wolfspy: Crossroads was a diffrent website
[18:44:03] <Ailita> ok bookmarked
[18:44:12] <%Chimpertainment> not sure...i was part of it around a year ago but my lucidity wasnt up to par
[18:44:30] <%Chimpertainment> looks like its still active at least
[18:44:36] <Ametam> oh ok, its been around for so long, im curious as to the amount of success
[18:44:44] <rumpel^> hello
[18:44:45] <rumpel^> again
[18:45:01] <wolfspy> hi
[18:45:05] <wolfspy> again
[18:45:05] <@Scionox> Hey
[18:45:38] <Ailita> why would someone want to invade my dreams? if this happens again im not going to be very happy person =/
[18:46:04] <Ametam> people invade your dreams?
[18:46:05] <%Chimpertainment> because they feel they are doing people a favor by causing them to become lucid
[18:47:07] <%Chimpertainment> perhaps if they knew you werent happy about it, they would change their minds...i dunno
[18:47:10] <Ailita> he said wake up then to come here and look up alter and mylynes and that the password was birthdaybanana then I immediately woke up and came here
[18:47:35] <Ailita> dreamviews.com
[18:48:14] <Ametam> god damm i wish people would come into my dreams
[18:48:20] <Ailita> he was really creepy and had a bunch of different forms
[18:48:32] <wolfspy> I would like someone to invade my dreams
[18:49:12] <Ailita> tell him to go to yours instead if you would like an extremely long nightmare..
[18:49:17] <%Chimpertainment> hehe
[18:49:21] <Ailita> i g2g later
[18:49:23] <%Chimpertainment> that sucks that it was bad for you ailita
[18:49:25] <%Chimpertainment> later
[18:49:33] <%Chimpertainment> hope you can stick around dv for a while
[18:49:37] <%Chimpertainment> its an amazing place  :smiley: 
[18:49:39] <Ailita> but pls tell them to pm me if you see mylynes alter or nomad pls
[18:49:47] <%Chimpertainment> yup yup
[18:49:50] <Ailita> and stay out of my dreams..
[18:49:53] <Ailita> bye
[18:49:54] <%Chimpertainment>  :smiley: 
[18:49:56] <%Chimpertainment> bye
[18:49:56] <@Scionox> Cya
[18:50:04] <Ametam> wait wait wait
[18:50:07] <Ailita> ?
[18:50:09] <Ametam> nomad is still around? :/
[18:50:12] <%Chimpertainment> yea
[18:50:15] <@Scionox> Yeah
[18:50:16] <Ailita> what i g2g someone waiting on me to take me home
[18:50:18] <Ametam> when did that happen?
[18:50:26] <%Chimpertainment> he never left
[18:50:28] <@Scionox> He got back sometime recently
[18:50:31] <Ailita> got like 30 second
[18:50:33] <Ametam> he went insane in like 2011
[18:50:45] <Ailita> to a min, whenever she barges in the room lo
[18:50:46] <Ailita> lol
[18:50:48] <%Chimpertainment> no worries ailita, feel free to go
[18:50:52] <@Scionox> @Chimp He had no access to internet for a good while
[18:50:57] <Ailita> ok later then
[18:51:02] <%Chimpertainment> laterz
[18:51:06] <@Scionox> Cya
[18:51:31] <%Chimpertainment> yeah...he came on when he could i believe...i just mean hes always been around, here and there  :smiley: 
[18:51:37] <Ailita> leaving this on for my bro to see later]Birthday Banana





I think it is highly possible this could be the same person who started the accounts of Alter and Mylynes. There are other reasons that I will share besides the one I already mentioned if the poster in question would choose to respond.

----------


## EbbTide000

WoW...WoW...WoW The *spoiler* is WoW

By Nomad do you mean Waking Nomad (???)

----------


## Validus

Well, After reading just about every comment on this thread, I must say it was quite the read. First Off, Mylynes seems like a great teacher, in the vast fields of 'Vision Control' as he puts it. However, not extremely advanced and a somewhat beginner in this area of control over the body, and the process of induction through phosphenes. Once I came across Alter, and his story I was shocked at how finely tuned he made 'IT' become for himself, figures though, if I was in the same situation, I would do the exact same. 

It has always been with me, though, I've always been able to create these images in my field of ( Closed Eye ) vision with out any sort of induction techniques. Through out the duration of my life, I've just enjoyed a nice light show and a self created 'Film' Per Se and drifted into a dream after. 

 The past few months, I've been experimenting with creating different scenarios to submerge myself into on and off, with fantastic results. I find that I must first allow myself to drift off into a some what sleep state, i usually try to reach the clutches of SP to begin so I can cut off my physical body enabling me to loose at the very least, the sense of touch and feel. Next, Hearing goes as well with the induction of Tinnitus (Ear Ringing) though tuned to a lower frequency. Now, at this point my CEV's have taken off, and I am ready to create a scenario. I begin to 're-synthesize' myself, if you will, into my field of closed eye visuals (CEV's) after i can look down, see my feet and then my hands ect. I know I am fully inside my mind. (I try not to get exited as this immediately shoots me out if I do, lol) So, Now I am ready to begin with scenery. From one of my best visualization recalls, I was creating a scene where i was in tall luscious grass, flowing over a vast land of rolling hills and in the sky there was 3 moons. Directly in front of me, a beautiful tree that was full of energy and life. I begin to move towards the tree, to analyse it and such. At this point my body was passing through REM and my CONSCIOUS control was deteriorating. Out from behind the tree comes a black figure, no much larger then that of a shoe box id say, but moved swiftly and vanished. I broke concentration and wondered to myself about what i had seen. What was it? From what did it come from? However, that small break in concentration shot me back into my physical body and real life bed. I now know that i had submerged myself into my first W.I.L.D through a Vision Control Type induction, and it was F*cking awesome. (Kind of got way off track remembering this) 

I guess where I'm trying to go with this is to reach a point where i can say; Damn. It feels amazing to be able to do this sort of thing and I was truly amazed and extremely intrigued by what Alter had said. Also, I would like to add that i too, am quite experienced with my Dreams, 'Vision Control', Going Lucid and performing W.I.L.D.S, etc, etc. So, if anyone would like advice i've gathered from personal experience, i'd be more then happy to help. I do wish Atlas was here to discuss this more with his readers, this is a great thread sparked back up again for me to see it.

----------


## TehDalek

More IRC logs from Ailita:

*Spoiler* for _Ailita's shared dreaming experience_: 



[11:03:21] <ailita> you know any of them?
[11:03:29] <TehDalek> Hai Der
[11:03:41] <ailita> hi
[11:03:51] <TehDalek> 'sup
[11:04:21] <ailita> very freaky stuff is sup right now
[11:04:22] OpheliaBlue [[email protected]] is now known as OpheliaBlue|Away
[11:04:37] <TehDalek> Freaky how
[11:04:53] <ailita> sigh
[11:05:17] <noeul55> Well
[11:05:30] <noeul55> I don't remember talking to any of those members
[11:05:38] <noeul55> but I remember WakingNomad
[11:05:42] <noeul55> Because
[11:05:51] <noeul55> people were talking about his shared dreaming experiences
[11:05:55] <TehDalek> Hm..WakingNomad. The shared dreaming guy
[11:06:01] <noeul55> ^ See
[11:06:24] <ailita> gjzgjdgjddghdh... im super freaked out here
[11:06:34] <TehDalek> I believe shared dreaming exsists, but I don't believe all of what he says
[11:06:37] <noeul55> TehDalek: Apparently, Someone appeared in alitia's dreams last night and gave her this website and the username WakingNoman
[11:06:40] <noeul55> Nomad*
[11:06:44] <noeul55> And 2 other usernames 
[11:06:48] <noeul55> that I know nothing about
[11:07:17] <noeul55> Are you sure you didn't saw those usernames before?
[11:07:32] <ailita> also told me the password is birthday banana of all things lmao.. 
[11:07:40] <TehDalek> He had one topic abot gods and templars and stuffs. I think that the adventures he and his friends go on is all made up in their minds. I believe the shared experience is genuine, but I do not believe the huge war thing is true for everyone
[11:08:05] <TehDalek> Ailita, did you hear the name RavenNight? I think that's one of his friends
[11:08:07] <ailita> huge war thing?
[11:08:23] <noeul55> <ailita> nomad, mylynes, and alter
[11:08:27] <noeul55> Those are the names
[11:08:28] <TehDalek> hm
[11:08:54] Sakura [[email protected]] has quit IRC: Client closed the connection
[11:09:01] <ailita> no other names, and sry hard to type n stuff on my phone
[11:09:10] <TehDalek> Well ailita, I think you are a lucky person! I'd send WakingNomad a PM and ask if he had the same experience
[11:09:24] <noeul55> Not when it was a nightmare
[11:09:25] <noeul55> :/
[11:09:30] <noeul55> But I guess it was still cool
[11:09:35] <noeul55> Because shared dreaming and stuff
[11:09:41] <noeul55> and she said she send some PMs already
[11:09:53] <ailita> nonono not lucky at all possibly worste experience of my life bad
[11:09:58] <TehDalek> Well, even nightmares can be a good thing. Some people use nightmares to transition into lucidity.
[11:10:01] Sakura [[email protected]] has joined #LucidDreaming
[11:10:45] <noeul55> Kind of interesting this dream you got here
[11:10:54] <noeul55> If you guys had the same experience
[11:10:55] <noeul55> then
[11:10:55] <+killing> oh lord
[11:11:00] <noeul55> It's just pure awesomeness <.<
[11:11:06] <noeul55> But then again
[11:11:18] <noeul55> Maybe you saw those names before and don't remember
[11:11:56] <+killing> mylynes is a real person too, but i spose you've realised that already?
[11:11:59] <TehDalek> I see no reason to shut out shared dreaming as a possibility. A few youtubers have said they exsist, and many dreamviews members have experiences reguarding shared dreaming
[11:12:22] <ailita> ive never been here or seen anything about them or their username s or lucid dreaming or any of this every in my life
[11:12:35] <+killing> annnnd so is alter
[11:12:38] <noeul55> Well, I guess we need to wait for the PM
[11:12:52] <+killing> alter was last here in july
[11:13:02] <+killing> mylynes was july last year
[11:13:51] <ailita> im not going to sleep till i get a pm or email or something. from someone
[11:13:57] <noeul55> That's silly
[11:14:02] <noeul55> Go and sleep if you're sleepy
[11:14:15] <TehDalek> huehuehue
[11:14:30] <noeul55> Nothing has been confirmed
[11:14:32] <noeul55> :/ so
[11:14:34] <noeul55> Go on sleeping.
[11:14:34] Hathor28 [[email protected]] has joined #LucidDreaming
[11:14:39] <noeul55> Hello Hathor
[11:14:48] <Hathor28>  :smiley: 
[11:14:52] <TehDalek> Hey, I would look into shared dreaming as much as you can. If you can induce it, it'd really be awesome. I would love to share dreams with my brother and make each other lucid
[11:14:56] <ailita> heeeell no.. you have no idea what it was like being trapped in there for so long with it him them whatever
[11:15:21] <TehDalek> I've had nightmares before, but I don't let them scare me away from dreaming. c: You shouldn't either
[11:15:47] <TehDalek> Just because you had one nightmare that does not mean the next shared dream won't be the best dream you've ever had!
[11:15:50] <TehDalek> Stay positive
[11:15:50] <ailita> i don't want that to ever happen again.. just want to be left alone and be able to go about my life as usual
[11:16:16] <ailita> he threatened me if i didn't come here....
[11:16:31] <noeul55> Well, you came
[11:16:32] <noeul55> So
[11:16:38] <ailita> if he did it 1 time then why couldn't he do it again?
[11:16:42] saltyseedog [[email protected]] has joined #LucidDreaming
[11:16:59] <TehDalek> Well what happened in the dream to make it a nightmare? Were you just scared because you didn't understand, or did they try to hurt you?
[11:17:25] <TehDalek> Even with as skilled as wakingnomad may be, he could have thought you were a dream character. An NPC in his own dream
[11:17:53] <ailita> nightmare is a huuuuuge understatment.. I've had nightmares before but this is something compl3tely different
[11:18:07] cosmodius95 [[email protected]] has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 90 seconds
[11:18:21] <Hathor28> nightmares for me are disturbing
[11:18:24] <Hathor28> very
[11:18:26] <Hathor28> very
[11:18:29] <Hathor28> disturbing
[11:18:32] <Hathor28> images
[11:18:35] <Hathor28> which i had
[11:18:39] <Hathor28> before yes
[11:18:45] <Hathor28> very real
[11:18:47] <noeul55> I rarely have nightmares
[11:18:52] <TehDalek> Well this is the topic I was referring to: http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...eam-plane.html
[11:18:52] <noeul55> I should try to induce them
[11:19:12] <TehDalek> As I said, I believe shared dreaming is genuine, but the specifics of the dreams rely only on the dreamer.
[11:19:29] <noeul55> I'm going to read that
[11:19:32] <noeul55> Looks interesting
[11:19:40] <ailita> utter torment, hell pain suffering fear ect and the length of it was the scariest party.. it felt like i ed in there for YEARS or something
[11:20:04] <noeul55> He truly believes shared dreaming is real
[11:20:13] <Hathor28> i do
[11:20:32] <TehDalek> I haven't had a full-blown shared dream expeirence, but I believe it exists
[11:20:47] <noeul55> I believe in shared dreaming too
[11:20:48] <ailita> this all sounds way to scyfi for me 
[11:20:52] <Hathor28> >_>
[11:20:53] <noeul55> <.<
[11:20:54] <TehDalek> The closest I've had is dreams where I don't recognize anyone/anything, not even myself. 
[11:20:56] <noeul55> LOL HATHOR
[11:21:20] <Hathor28> i know i share dreamed
[11:21:23] <Hathor28> when
[11:21:36] <noeul55> I don't think I ever had a shared dreaming experience
[11:21:47] <Hathor28> someone u know tells u they remembered the dream before that and such and such and im like wow
[11:21:49] <noeul55> Only close to
[11:22:05] <Hathor28> and it happened IN a dream
[11:22:12] <Hathor28> telling me this
[11:22:26] <Hathor28> !brb
[11:22:27] Hathor28 [[email protected]] is now known as Hathor28|BRB
[11:22:30] <Hathor28|BRB> laundry
[11:22:33] <Hathor28|BRB> :\
[11:23:08] <ailita> seriously though if th
[11:23:10] <noeul55> Dreamwalkers!
[11:23:11] <noeul55> !!!!!!
[11:23:44] <noeul55> Okay
[11:23:52] <noeul55> Need to wait for the PM before we jump to all kind of stuff
[11:23:53] <ailita> if i have to go back there will likely at least result in serious mental issues
[11:24:03] <noeul55> Wowowow
[11:24:11] <noeul55> Was it THAT bad?
[11:24:24] <LaBerge> hi guise  :smiley: 
[11:24:32] <noeul55> Hi LB
[11:24:36] <LaBerge> long time no see
[11:24:40] <ailita> you have NO idea.. i would rather die than go back there..
[11:24:42] <LaBerge> how's the LDing going?
[11:24:44] <noeul55> Yep
[11:24:50] <noeul55> LDing is great.
[11:24:52] <TehDalek> ailita, be brave!
[11:24:54] <noeul55> How about you?
[11:25:04] <TehDalek> This could be the beginning of many amazing dreams!
[11:25:12] <ailita> ....
[11:25:20] <LaBerge> could be better, I still haven't made it a habit :'(
[11:25:21] <noeul55> Try to focus on things you like
[11:25:32] <noeul55> or listen to something relaxing
[11:25:39] <TehDalek> No nightmare can hurt you, remember that. Think positive, happy thoughts. Remember before you sleep that the nightmares aren't real
[11:25:41] <noeul55> I don't know, Just keep positive
[11:25:49] <noeul55> Exactly
[11:25:55] <ailita> i just want pm over with and for them to leave me alone so i can go back to sleeping and regular life and stuff
[11:26:07] <noeul55> Well, this was the first night it happened
[11:26:09] <noeul55> ?
[11:26:15] <TehDalek> Try to look for the odd, the strange. Try to recognize nightmares when they happen so you can gain control and kick those bad guys' butts!
[11:26:15] <noeul55> Or there were more episodes of this?
[11:26:34] <ailita> even if it can't kill you, this nightmare can definitely hurt me
[11:26:38] <LaBerge> unless... you are the nightmare :O
[11:26:47] <noeul55> <.< Srsly LaBerge
[11:26:54] <LaBerge> hehe  :tongue2: 
[11:27:33] <ailita> this is the first time it ever happened and i woke up yesterday and came straight here
[11:28:30] <ailita> one reeeeally reeeeally long nightmare that ended in dreamviews, some username, and a retarded password
[11:28:57] <ailita> usernames*
[11:29:04] Olliee [[email protected]] has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 90 seconds
[11:29:33] <noeul55> Okay, We'll wait for the PM.
[11:30:27] <TehDalek> Keep us updated ._>
[11:30:37] <noeul55> Yes, Please do
[11:30:51] <TehDalek> Shared dreaming is a little known thing compared to a lucid dream
[11:30:58] <ailita> yea not much else to do but wait for pm email unless someone knows of a faster way to get in contact.. =(
[11:31:34] <TehDalek> Well he was last on 4 days ago, so you may need to wait a bit
[11:31:35] <noeul55> Oh come on, Stop thinking about it all the time, Go on with your life like nothing happened.
[11:32:20] <noeul55> I know it's probably hard and stuff, But keep trying
[11:32:58] <noeul55> Look, I found a tutorial on this
[11:33:01] <noeul55> http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...-tutorial.html
[11:33:08] <ailita> ,....... thats kinda hard after coming here to find not only do the usernames exist but that they are into dream control and shared dreaming and all this wacky crazy scyfi sounding shit
[11:33:26] <LaBerge> shared dreaming does not exist
[11:33:35] <TehDalek> Lol noeul, I am reading that too
[11:33:40] <TehDalek> Laberge, I disagree
[11:33:48] <noeul55> You're so close-minded LaBerge
[11:34:00] <TehDalek> Ailita, do you believe lucid dreaming is possible?
[11:34:06] <LaBerge> someone obvioulsy planted a dream into your mind with a dream device
[11:34:08] <TehDalek> Knowing you're dreaming, when you're dreaming?
[11:34:14] <ailita> i don't care if it exists or not, i don't want those guys near my dreams anymore..
[11:34:24] <noeul55> You know
[11:34:32] <noeul55> If you don't get a PM soon
[11:34:36] <noeul55> you can try to get lucid
[11:34:43] <noeul55> and have a nice fight and all those kind of stuff
[11:34:44] <TehDalek> Well if you learn some lucid dreaming techniques, or research shared dreaming, you should be able to ward them off
[11:34:46] <noeul55> You know
[11:34:47] <ailita> i don't even know what lucid dreaming is
[11:34:52] <noeul55> If it happened the first time
[11:34:59] <TehDalek> Knowing you're dreaming, when you're dreaming?
[11:35:02] <noeul55> maybe it won't happened again though
[11:35:04] <LaBerge> ailita, the only way to conquer nightmares is to face them and accept them and not being scared.. sounds clichÃ© and silly but it's true
[11:35:06] <TehDalek> Minues teh question mark
[11:35:44] <LaBerge> before bed try this: visualise the last time you had the nightmare, only add a better ending, a happy ending
[11:36:51] <ailita> thats not gonna help me.. you don't go to hell and tell Satan its your time to shine and start running the show
[11:37:13] <LaBerge> instead of conflict try reconcilliation
[11:37:28] <LaBerge> imagine Satan apologizing for his rude behavior
[11:37:34] <LaBerge> that kinda stuff
[11:37:45] <LaBerge> fix the misunderstanding
[11:37:46] <noeul55> Or I guess you can focus on one of the coolest dream you ever had
[11:37:53] <noeul55> trying to recall and all
[11:38:00] <ailita> im gonna try pm and email first.. and not sleeping till i figure some things out
[11:38:01] <noeul55> and when you recalled it all in high details, go to the next one
[11:38:04] <noeul55> till you fall asleep
[11:38:06] <noeul55> Daydream
[11:38:10] <noeul55> about nice stuff
[11:38:20] <noeul55> There are so many things you can do to forget about it.
[11:38:36] <noeul55> Also, I kind of noticed my daydreaming is becoming more vivid
[11:38:38] <ailita> mmm
[11:38:45] <noeul55> That means I'm increasing awareness right?
[11:38:50] <LaBerge> i gotta go, if anyone wants to prove shared dreaming to me, see ya tonite lol
[11:39:13] <noeul55> Nomad should pay you a visit.
[11:39:15] <noeul55> And whop your ass
[11:39:16] <ailita> It's hard to think of anything else right now.. super scary shit
[11:39:43] <LaBerge> ailita good luck, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself
[11:40:18] <ailita> and the guy in my dream
[11:40:39] <LaBerge> it's your dream and your mind
[11:40:52] flowofmysoul [[email protected]] has joined #LucidDreaming
[11:40:58] <noeul55> Hello flowofmysoul
[11:41:13] <noeul55> We were just talking about beyond dreaming stuff
[11:41:14] <ailita> i fear death LESS than that place of it really came down to it
[11:41:15] <flowofmysoul> hello Anna
[11:41:21] <noeul55> Shared Dreaming.
[11:41:23] <noeul55> Do you believe in it?
[11:41:36] <flowofmysoul> me?
[11:41:41] <noeul55> Yes, You. xD
[11:41:58] <flowofmysoul> yes
[11:42:15] <noeul55> Well this girl over here
[11:42:17] <noeul55> had a dream
[11:42:18] <flowofmysoul> but not between two online users
[11:42:21] <noeul55> about WakingNomad
[11:42:28] <noeul55> You know who he is?
[11:42:33] <ailita> there was almost a feeling like he could have kept me there forever if he wanted to, but then he told me to come here and let me go
[11:42:37] <flowofmysoul> yea i read 
[11:42:42] <noeul55> The thing is
[11:42:47] <noeul55> she never heard of him or this site
[11:42:50] <noeul55> or lucid dreaming
[11:42:55] <flowofmysoul> did he say the same? Did he have the same dream?
[11:43:08] <noeul55> We're waiting for a response to the PM she send him
[11:43:33] <noeul55> She just woke up with that username in the head
[11:43:37] <noeul55> and also 2 other usernames
[11:43:42] <flowofmysoul> I received emails like that twice, where a girl wrote me that she had the same dream that I wrote on dj
[11:43:58] <ailita> i don't ever want to go there again, much less spend an eternity locked in there
[11:43:59] <noeul55> Mylynes and alter
[11:44:13] <noeul55> I don't know anything about those two
[11:44:16] <noeul55> but if they share dreams too
[11:44:18] <flowofmysoul> !joindate ailita 
[11:44:18] <iBot> Join Date: November 14, 2013
[11:44:19] <noeul55> Then it's fucking weird
[11:45:13] <ailita> very fucking weird lol, and unbelievable
[11:45:30] <noeul55> And also awesome.
[11:45:42] <LaBerge> what was the username and password that you dreamed about?
[11:46:20] <noeul55> Mylynes, Alter and Nomad were the usernames
[11:46:31] <noeul55> the password was some weird stuff about ... bananas ?
[11:47:13] <LaBerge> i gotta go now, keep me updated
[11:47:17] <LaBerge> tschÃ¼ss
[11:47:19] LaBerge [[email protected]] has quit IRC: Quit: Page closed
[11:47:24] <noeul55> Okay then
[11:48:19] <ailita> sry I'm slow on phone, but the stupid password was birthday banana
[11:50:04] <ailita> and this is not awesome.. its just scary.. and out of all the ppl inn the world, why invade my dream, why not someone else like from this forum or something...
[11:50:29] <noeul55> Where are you from?
[11:50:42] <noeul55> Country?
[11:51:41] <flowofmysoul> and I am currently looking for a girl with whom I had my shared dream
[11:52:34] <ailita> usa louisiana
[11:52:36] <flowofmysoul> Also some random person, I dont think she is part of dreamviews 
[11:52:45] <Hathor28|BRB> nice place
[11:53:06] <Hathor28|BRB> u like your popeyes ailita ?
[11:53:08] <Hathor28|BRB>  ::D: 
[11:53:17] <flowofmysoul> that would be cool if wakingnomad confirms that he had same dream
[11:53:19] <flowofmysoul> and sad if not
[11:53:24] <ailita> I'm probably not the girl you looking for unless you just got done torturing me and told me to come here..
[11:53:33] <ailita> yesterday
[11:53:42] <flowofmysoul> no you are not for sure  :smiley: 
[11:53:55] <Hathor28|BRB> i didnt dream :\
[11:54:04] <Hathor28|BRB> sadly
[11:54:09] <ailita> ok then x.x
[11:54:20] <Hathor28|BRB> i want to dream everyday
[11:54:27] <Hathor28|BRB> but not possible for me
[11:54:32] <noeul55> You DO dream, You don't recall.
[11:54:43] <flowofmysoul> last night i had some weird experience  :smiley: 
[11:54:47] <Hathor28|BRB> its either bad recall and i dream 3 times a week
[11:54:54] <noeul55> Hmm?
[11:54:58] <Hathor28|BRB> 3-4
[11:55:06] <Hathor28|BRB> depending
[11:55:07] <noeul55> You dream every night
[11:55:08] <noeul55> Jesus
[11:55:12] <noeul55> Christ
[11:55:18] <Hathor28|BRB> no i wish
[11:55:21] <flowofmysoul> besides the lucid dreams, I woke up because my gf went to bathroom, it was time to go to work
[11:55:27] <ailita> i woke up in sweat n pee.. with bruises n stuff which has never happened b4
[11:55:31] <noeul55> Everyone dreams everynight.
[11:55:49] <Hathor28|BRB> i prob had boring dream
[11:55:54] <Hathor28|BRB> and jack wasnt there
[11:55:55] <noeul55> OH
[11:55:58] <noeul55> I REMEMBER A DREAM
[11:56:04] <Hathor28|BRB> lol
[11:56:17] <flowofmysoul> just before she went to bath i heard the alarm on her phone
[11:56:29] <flowofmysoul> she switched it off
[11:56:48] <flowofmysoul> then while she was in bath I heard a pretty loud tv show, very old tv show... 
[11:56:51] <TehDalek> 11) You must maintain high lucidity by doing the exact thing that you fear. If you are afraid to do something, say, "this is a dream," and do it. This will constantly remind you that you are in a dream because you are doing the impossible thing. I used to run like a lil beeyotch from monsters, but, we recently killed the Vampire King.
[11:56:58] <TehDalek> Quote from WakingNomad
[11:57:00] <flowofmysoul> I thought it is coming from her phone, but it wasnt
[11:57:46] <ailita> =\
[11:58:47] <TehDalek> You are in control ailita, don't let nightmares take control of you
[11:59:05] <TehDalek> You are stronger than whatever pops up in your dreams
[11:59:28] <TehDalek> Even if you get overpowered from time to time, remember that you can go back and win next dream
[12:00:57] <flowofmysoul> I always advise for beginners to perceive nightmares as something funny, or if you cant, just try to laugh on whatever is scary to you
[12:01:26] <flowofmysoul> you will not notice how fast your nightmare will become something cool and funny  :smiley: 
[12:01:44] <flowofmysoul> Like unintentional dream control
[12:01:56] <TehDalek> I once had a nightmare because of voldemort. When I woke up I realized it was day residue and laughed it off. Only had a nightmare once.
[12:02:12] <TehDalek> Or rather, that nightmare
[12:02:25] <TehDalek> In other words nightmares about voldemort were not reoccuring
[12:02:53] <ailita> seriously if this is all for real then this guy could seriously be a danger to people, and i don't know of anything that could stop him from torturing and enslaving minds.. he had ALL the control and i had none, i was just a playtoy in the hand of a mad god or devil thing.. lol not like you can call the police over this kind of thing
[12:03:32] <ailita> in the least he is a threat to my personal sanity
[12:03:58] <flowofmysoul> and if he did not have this dream, you must be torturing your self
[12:04:08] <flowofmysoul> that is even more scary  :smiley: 
[12:04:14] <TehDalek> Ailita, he was just a lucid dreamer. He had control because he knew what was going on. 
[12:04:32] <TehDalek> Now that you know what happened, you too can be in control
[12:04:48] <ailita> no
[12:04:55] <TehDalek> The more you study lucid dreaming, the more in control you will be of your dreams. You should be able to ward him off
[12:05:02] <TehDalek> Make that a goal
[12:05:04] <flowofmysoul> in my last shared ld, both of us had control of our dream, but none of us could control each other
[12:05:35] <flowofmysoul> I could take her and teleport somewhere, but I could not change her
[12:05:39] <TehDalek> I personally always terrorize my dream characters. WakingNomad probably did the same
[12:06:01] <flowofmysoul> She had the same powers, she could easily switch decorations around us, but she could not do anything directly with me
[12:06:02] <TehDalek> But instead of you being a dream character, you were a real dreamer, and wakingnomad may not have realized
[12:07:31] <ailita> have you looked at some of their threads? time dilation? lucids and practicing dream control from the age of 4....
[12:07:33] <flowofmysoul> guys first confirm if he even had that dream, because it could happen that it was a nightmare 
[12:07:33] <ailita> whoever this guy is, he's not human.. something worse
[12:08:09] <ailita> claims to have had dreams that lasted over 100 years... =(
[12:08:24] <TehDalek> Dreams are not reality. Just because he was whatever in the dream, that doesn't mean the same for reality. I have had dreams that lasted 2 years. It is called time dialation
[12:08:37] <TehDalek> Perhaps you saw him as the devil because you were scared
[12:08:46] <TehDalek> He may have had a completely different view of it
[12:09:00] <TehDalek> http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...hen-lucid.html I just read this, found the shared expeirence hilarious from Raven's end
[12:09:08] <TehDalek> But notice the differences?
[12:09:15] <TehDalek> It could be the same situation
[12:09:34] <TehDalek> You may have seen it as scary, they may have seen it as normal
[12:09:35] <ailita> thats what I've been trying to say from the start.. the scariest party of this"nightmare" It's how long it lasted
[12:10:18] <TehDalek> I know you had a bad expeirence, but if these guys were real, then I'd try to reconnect with them. You can learn a ton
[12:10:40] <ailita> now im reading about time dilation like its a normal thing wtf
[12:10:52] <flowofmysoul> it is pretty normal
[12:10:56] <flowofmysoul> in dreams
[12:11:20] <ailita> my experience def not normal
[12:11:35] <TehDalek> Time dialation is a goal for many lucid dreamers. To spend hours, days, even years in a lucid dream? Imagine the possibilities
[12:11:46] <flowofmysoul> when you have nightmares, they suck you in deeper and deeper. You end up falling into your fears
[12:11:58] <TehDalek> When you learn control you can even stop the dream at will and wake up
[12:12:05] <TehDalek> The easiest way out is to rub your eyes
[12:12:24] <flowofmysoul> I read lots of threads on this forum and I had lots of time dilation dreams and I think long time dilation is a random occasion
[12:12:58] <TehDalek> Oreo is really trying to learn time dialation, but I agree with flow. It seems to be quite random and uncontrollable
[12:13:06] <flowofmysoul> You can have a little time dilation on purpose, but I did not see a single event where somebody did a 1 week or month/year time dilation on purpose
[12:13:06] <TehDalek> I have had many dreams last more than an hour.
[12:13:21] <flowofmysoul> few month ago i had dream lasting 1 week
[12:13:36] <flowofmysoul> Then before I had night where I think I had like 200 or more dreams ?
[12:13:44] <TehDalek> @[email protected]
[12:13:48] <ailita> if im not crazy, then a man ive never met just entered my dream and tortured me for an extremely long time before finally letting me go and saying to come here..
[12:13:53] <TehDalek> I had like 5 yesterday, but only remembered 2-3
[12:14:14] <TehDalek> He didn't mean to torture you. He wants to help you ailita
[12:14:17] <flowofmysoul> I am even not sure how long I was dreaming, I woke up with a feeling that I just passed a 1 week nonstop university study or something... my brain was full of info and dream memories and I was so tired because of that
[12:14:35] <ailita> its easier to believe im crazy, and then i see the usernames and such..
[12:14:49] <flowofmysoul> ailita: did you dream of an exact nickname like 'wakingnomad' ?
[12:14:54] <ailita> help me how?
[12:15:22] <TehDalek> I have had quite a few lucids, and I can say that they are easily my favorite memories
[12:15:26] <TehDalek> Dreams are awesome
[12:15:27] <flowofmysoul> ailita: it is hard to explain, when you are new to lucid dreaming you often loose control, and when you do you often get what you fear most
[12:15:28] <ailita>  alter, mylynes, and nomad is what he said..
[12:16:01] <ailita> he didnt say wakingnomad though i asumme thats the right one
[12:16:02] <flowofmysoul> did you know about lucid dreaming before you had this dream ?
[12:16:32] <ailita> no
[12:17:09] <flowofmysoul> I think I never had shared dream with a person who is not lucid dreamer
[12:17:22] <ailita> this is all new to me, usually my dreams are pretty normal stuffs when i can remember them
[12:18:06] <TehDalek> Based on http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...hen-lucid.html that one, It sounds to me like they could have just stumbled upon your dream
[12:18:24] <TehDalek> Doesn't seem like they seeked you out
[12:18:28] <ailita> ?
[12:18:41] <flowofmysoul> shared dream might be random too
[12:18:46] <TehDalek> ^
[12:18:53] <flowofmysoul> like nobody wanted to find you
[12:18:57] <ailita> =/
[12:19:04] <flowofmysoul> somebody might simply got into your dream by accident
[12:19:11] <flowofmysoul> and then invited you here
[12:19:13] <ailita> i just want him out of my head
[12:19:28] <ailita> thats all i want, nothing more
[12:19:29] <flowofmysoul> it is possible that even wakingnomad did not do it, but some other user who know nomad
[12:19:51] <flowofmysoul> what you are doing now is the opposite of what you should do
[12:19:56] <flowofmysoul> if you really want to get him out
[12:20:39] <flowofmysoul> the more you fear and the more you think it might happen again the more chances you will dream of it again
[12:20:42] <ailita> what should i do then? i feel like if i go to sleep he's going to be there waiting on me and maybe never let me leave next time
[12:21:18] <flowofmysoul> now you know what is lucid dreaming, it is pretty cool to start where you started
[12:21:56] <ailita> i knew then it was a dream, he told me countless times
[12:21:59] <flowofmysoul> just know that your intention and expectations control your dreams, carry that knowledge with you. Next time you dream, try to change something in your dream
[12:22:46] <ailita> i tried to wake myself up like i would from any nightmare but couldn't
[12:23:07] <flowofmysoul> so next time you go to sleep you must be pretty sure about your self, your dream is only yours.
[12:23:13] <TehDalek> If it happens again, talk to the group of people. Make it a positive experience
[12:24:04] <flowofmysoul> I had dreams where I could not wake up for hours, I did everything I could think of, and I am an experienced lucid dreamer with around 5 years of every night lucid dreaming
[12:24:05] <ailita> hopefully i just get a pm or something before my body shuts down from sleep deprivation
[12:24:15] <flowofmysoul> or he might reply in a week
[12:24:27] <flowofmysoul> dont wait for that, just relax  :smiley: 
[12:26:03] <ailita> if he takes a week ill still be awake then tho a little more difficult to communicate with, be hallucinating and such
[12:26:33] <ailita> hopefully sooner though
[12:26:42] <TehDalek> Don't be afraid! Sleep if you're tired.
[12:27:03] <flowofmysoul> yea, just sleep whenever you are sleepy
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[12:27:23] <flowofmysoul> if you really want not to repeat that dream, stop being afraid of it
[12:27:25] <ailita> would be nice if someone on here knew nomad irl and could maybe txt his phone or something.. he has a lot of friends on here
[12:28:14] <ailita> that is easier said than done
[12:28:39] <flowofmysoul> this is how my last shared dream looked like, and the girl who was there was definitely a lucid dreamer too
[12:28:40] <flowofmysoul> Random Shared Dream | flow of my soul
[12:28:53] <ailita> its like that movie after earth if you seen it, most ppl cant ghost and just get slaughtered
[12:29:18] <flowofmysoul> yea iv seen it 
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[12:30:29] <ailita> im kinda sleepy now but I've only been up since the thing yesterday happened and i had slept good before that though
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[12:31:27] <flowofmysoul> go to sleep then  :smiley: 
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[12:31:43] <flowofmysoul> try to enjoy whatever you will dream of
[12:32:03] <TehDalek> And remember to keep us updated! =D
[12:32:15] <noeul55> Yes ailita
[12:32:20] <noeul55> Please keep us updated on this
[12:32:48] <ailita> i would pm nomad friend list asking if anyone knew we to contact faster but he had a lot of friends and i can only send 3 msgs per hour, plus my phone is lousy
[12:33:28] <ailita> update you on here?
[12:34:57] <ailita> i want to look at some of the links n stuff you guys posted but it's harder to do on this phone so need to check them out later
[12:35:35] <Hathor28|BRB> !back
[12:35:36] Hathor28|BRB [[email protected]] is now known as Hathor28
[12:35:52] <noeul55> Yes
[12:35:53] <noeul55> On here
[12:36:05] <noeul55> Welcome back Hathor
[12:36:16] <Hathor28> ty
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[12:36:41] <ailita> i have no internet at my place right now so i can only get online here and the pc is being used right now
[12:37:28] <TehDalek> [18:21:53] <%Chimpertainment> just so you know
[12:37:28] <TehDalek> [18:22:05] <%Chimpertainment> nomads technique was to scare people and induce nightmares
[12:37:28] <TehDalek> [18:22:20] <%Chimpertainment> the bigger the emotional reaction, the more likely the person is to become lucid
[12:37:31] <TehDalek> Hmm...
[12:37:48] <noeul55> What
[12:37:53] <noeul55> What's this
[12:38:01] Olliee [[email protected]] has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 90 seconds
[12:38:04] <TehDalek> So it truly sounds like nomad was trying to help you ailita.
[12:38:23] <TehDalek> Reading IRC logs here: http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...ml#post2060666
[12:38:40] <noeul55> Notice the 666
[12:38:53] <ailita> help me how? that's a very strange way to help someone...
[12:39:15] <TehDalek> He was trying to make you lucid
[12:39:28] <TehDalek> So you could see all the amazing things lucid dreaming has to offer
[12:39:32] <noeul55> That makes
[12:39:33] <noeul55> everything
[12:39:34] <Hathor28> YES
[12:39:38] <noeul55> That makes so much sense
[12:39:45] <Hathor28> the emotions do play a part also
[12:39:46] <noeul55> I'm not joking
[12:39:50] <noeul55> It all makes sense now
[12:39:51] <ailita> .i don't understand
[12:39:56] <noeul55> Well
[12:40:00] <Hathor28> for lucids
[12:40:05] <noeul55> WakingNomad wants to help people to get lucid
[12:40:11] <noeul55> and he does it through nightmares
[12:40:23] <Hathor28> im always emotional adapted in dreams
[12:40:30] <ailita> wtf???? why me?
[12:40:31] <noeul55> and then he gave you the site and username so he could help you more maybe?
[12:40:37] <noeul55> I don't know
[12:40:49] <TehDalek> As we said, he probably stumbled upon you, but then decided to help you out while he was there
[12:41:00] <noeul55> Because I read that WakingNomad wants more and more people to get lucid
[12:41:02] <noeul55> for shared dreaming stuff
[12:41:03] <noeul55> right?
[12:41:08] <ailita> why the stupid password?
[12:41:09] <noeul55> That makes sooooooo much sense.
[12:41:21] <TehDalek> He was giving you things to remember him by
[12:41:31] <TehDalek> So that you could remember to come here when you woke up
[12:41:32] <Hathor28> remember....dream guide can also be real ppl
[12:41:46] <TehDalek> It is so easy to brush things off and forget all about dreams
[12:41:47] <noeul55> So, I can have a real dream guide?
[12:41:53] <TehDalek> He was making it memorable
[12:42:01] <noeul55> That's right
[12:42:04] <ailita> this is weirding me out...
[12:42:05] <Hathor28> well for ailita's reaction on nomad yes
[12:42:06] <noeul55> Random and stupid stuff
[12:42:06] <TehDalek> Nomad is way more skilled then I ever believed
[12:42:19] <noeul55> He seems very intelligent
[12:42:20] <noeul55> I bet he is
[12:42:22] <noeul55> I mean
[12:42:27] <noeul55> This is so awesome.
[12:42:31] <noeul55> I wish I was you ailita
[12:42:43] <TehDalek> I am almost laughing here because I am so interested and excited
[12:42:51] Olliee [[email protected]] has joined #LucidDreaming
[12:42:52] <ailita> and why 3 usernames instead of 1?
[12:42:59] <noeul55> ^ Exactly the same TehDalek
[12:43:02] <noeul55> Well
[12:43:05] <TehDalek> To further confirm it was real
[12:43:15] <noeul55> I think I saw an irc log
[12:43:17] <noeul55> that
[12:43:22] <noeul55> those 3 were the same person?
[12:43:24] <noeul55> I might be wrong
[12:43:51] <noeul55> Or maybe those 2 were another lucid dreamers
[12:43:54] <noeul55> that share dreams.
[12:44:04] Sakura [[email protected]] has quit IRC: Quit: Page closed
[12:44:05] <ailita> nomad, mylynes, and alter?
[12:44:23] <noeul55> I really have no idea, But make sure you wrote everything in the PM you send him.
[12:44:31] <noeul55> The dream, your thoughts and all
[12:44:34] <Demonbot> Looking for discussion on the astral plane, dream sharing, interpretation, and the metaphysical? Check out the #BeyondDreaming channel: /join #BeyondDreaming
[12:44:42] <noeul55> That's right
[12:45:08] ailita [[email protected]] has quit IRC: Quit: Page closed

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## Ailita

Soon as i woke up, i jumped on computer and wrote the names and password down, then looked up this place and joined ater a couple of hours worth of reading and really freaking myself out, i joined and sent out pms and came to the chat for a while. I have never been to this site before then but i am familiar with forums in general, i know nothing about lucid dreaming also other than what I've been told since I've been here. Just wanting to talk to nomad if possible.

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## Baron Samedi

> Soon as i woke up, i jumped on computer and wrote the names and password down, then looked up this place and joined ater a couple of hours worth of reading and really freaking myself out, i joined and sent out pms and came to the chat for a while. I have never been to this site before then but i am familiar with forums in general, i know nothing about lucid dreaming also other than what I've been told since I've been here. Just wanting to talk to nomad if possible.



Hi Ailita. That was Alter, not me or Mylynes. He says didn't mean to make you have such a horrible long night terror. BTW, I personally only give nightmares to people that request it. In fact, I made a thread called, "Who wants a nightmare?" for that purpose. I don't make it a habit to invade people's dreams, but Alter is a little younger than me, and he doesn't realize the full extent of his power, but he's learning. 

I upset a friend of mine, before, freaked her out even after she gave me permission to share dreams. Another time, I upset a friend in a shared dream, because he perceived me to be attacking him, but from my perception, I was being playful like  Hobbes attacking Calvin when he comes home from school. 
Alter and Mylynes almost never post, Mylynes has been inactive for awhile, but in my experience, they are two very powerful Dreamwalkers. 

noel: 666 wtf?

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## Baron Samedi

> Hi Ailita. That was Alter, not me or Mylynes. He says didn't mean to make you have such a horrible long night terror. BTW, I personally only give nightmares to people that request it. In fact, I made a thread called, "Who wants a nightmare?" for that purpose. I don't make it a habit to invade people's dreams, but Alter is a little younger than me, and he doesn't realize the full extent of his power, but he's learning. 
> 
> I upset a friend of mine, before, freaked her out even after she gave me permission to share dreams. Another time, I upset a friend in a shared dream, because he perceived me to be attacking him, but from my perception, I was being playful like  Hobbes attacking Calvin when he comes home from school. 
> Alter and Mylynes almost never post, Mylynes has been inactive for awhile, but in my experience, they are two very powerful Dreamwalkers. 
> 
> noel: 666 wtf?



444 entries!

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## Miau

> 444 entries!



There was the number 666 at the end of the link I gave. That's why I said 666.

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## user5659

Alter, Mylynes, WakingNomad... and anybody else who does shared dreaming. Please give me a nightmare, come to my dream and try to do something. You can even come all together.

If you need I can send you my photo, I can even come to a given location.

From my side I promise to give a honest answer of whatever happened to me. All my dreams are lucid, and I usually recall most of my dreams, so it should be easy for you.
Also I will be having info with me, a 3 digit number that I will share with you if we will meet. The same number is written on the first page of the notebook that is on my desktop. Would be cool if you can get that info too.

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## Baron Samedi

> Alter, Mylynes, WakingNomad... and anybody else who does shared dreaming. Please give me a nightmare, come to my dream and try to do something. You can even come all together.
> 
> If you need I can send you my photo, I can even come to a given location.
> 
> From my side I promise to give a honest answer of whatever happened to me. All my dreams are lucid, and I usually recall most of my dreams, so it should be easy for you.
> Also I will be having info with me, a 3 digit number that I will share with you if we will meet. The same number is written on the first page of the notebook that is on my desktop. Would be cool if you can get that info too.



http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...nightmare.html

Click on the question.

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## Baron Samedi

> There was the number 666 at the end of the link I gave. That's why I said 666.



well that is just creepy!

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## user5659

> http://www.dreamviews.com/beyond-dre...nightmare.html
> 
> Click on the question.



Clicked and left same post there with my fear update.

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## Baron Samedi

> Clicked and left same post there with my fear update.



Cool. So, back on topic, I have another idea which worked for me to be able to do this a little bit. 

Go outside on a sunny day, close your eyes, and "stare" at the sun with your eyes closed for awhile. Now, go inside, and stare at a white wall. The afterimage of the sun should be on your eyes, like a camera flash. Try to alter the size, shape, and color of the afterimage.

Personally, I have had minimal success with altering my waking life vision. Maybe subconsciously, I am afraid of going crazy. I have been able to change the white of my computer screen to a very light pink and a very light green after reading this tutorial. My suggestion I came upon after staring at the sun's rays through a magnifying glass burning leaves.

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## user5659

Not going crazy, well maybe for some people you do. But if you keep it under control that is a positive skill to have.

In Dubai every day is very sunny, I did something similar with the sun, but without white wall. 
I am successfully doing what you call nREM WILD's when I go to beach, so I am lying on the sun and the sun is always just on top of me. So I am facing the sun with closed eyes and trying to relax for some time, then I try to open my eyelids without actually opening them, it looks like double eye lid, you need to stay relax during this process or they will keep closing. That was the moment where I noticed the weird part. I opened my eyes for real and there was so many clouds on top and I could see the sun, sometimes behind clouds, sometimes not. I Closed my eyes and did that fake opening of my eyes and the sky was crystal clear! That's not it, I saw an airplane flying just above my head, and there was no actual sun in my view. Already the feeling was like I am dreaming, similar feelings to nREM WILD. I opened my eyes again and again I could see clouds, no airplane, and sun was over me. At that time it was very new and interesting for me to have what seemed to be a dream while I am awake. So I played with it and tried to relax as much as I can. After some time, noise around me became lower and at that point I already could change my dream, it became completely silent and I knew I am already sleeping. Did similar to what I do in regular nREM WILD when I go to sleep, changed my dream couple of times, tried to relax and concentrated on those parts that were not clear, tried to enlarge my view and tried to make it as vivid as I can.
Then it all worked as if it was regular nREM WILD.. I got into the dream, after some time things faded away and I got into emptiness, then short blank spot of memory and later I appeared in some random dream place, which was already my first DILD.

And this is not a single lucky case to say that I might just miss the part where I felt asleep and that was all dream. I did that around 50 times by now and every time is the same thing. I can both hear my wife talking and I can see that blank sky transforming into my dream, then sound is getting lower, but I still can slightly hear my wife and waves sounds and etc.


edit* I have no idea why every time when I do this, sky becomes crystal clear, maybe that is what I wish? I don't know  :smiley:

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## Mylynes

I would like to share a pm here and my response to it because I faced similar issues when first exploring this system of visual manipulation. I hope this will be able to help someone out. If there are any other questions feel free to post them here or pm me.





> Hi Matt,
> 
> My name is Someone. I'm unsure if you are still active in this community- your activity indicates you aren't. But I am going to attempt to contact you anyway, because there is something I really want to talk to you about.
> 
> It concerns your thread, "Advanced Vision Control Tutorial." Basically, I've been attempting to use this technique for a while but have been so far unsuccessful. I then realized that contacting someone who has already mastered it might be beneficial. I am very determined to make this work. Will you consider helping me with this? 
> 
> Believe it or not, I actually have been trying to teach myself this since before I read your tutorial. I theorized it was possible a long time ago, and eventually came across your thread while I was researching "self-generated controlled hallucinations." Your tutorial was more than I had hoped for, and I set out at once to follow your instructions.
> 
> Noticing the "static" wasn't difficult at all. In fact, I remembered seeing it all the time when I was much younger, so mastering step one was more like relearning something forgotten.
> ...



Hi there, I apologize for the delay. I have not been active on here in a long while.

Step 2 and further can be very difficult to explain. Most of it is very hard to put into words. Practice practice practice and more practice combined with trial and error seems to be key to progressing with this system. The images seem to be manipulated purely by will, and in time this becomes very easy to do. When I first started as a child I would practice nearly every night in bed before sleep. It was difficult for me to progress at first as well, but it was a sort of game to me. I tried to make it fun and interesting, which is why I was even able to practice so much.

It is a bit like moving your arm. If someone asks you to raise your arm, you simply do it without having to focus much on it. You will your arm to move and it does so. Likewise, this is like building up a muscle you didn't know you had.. which can be very difficult. Like wiggling your ear for example, if you cant wiggle it at all, things will be difficult at first until you can figure out exactly how to make your brain reach those muscles. Once you get a little bit of movement however and can access those muscles however weak, you may exercise those muscles in order to make them grow.

Focus your practice on things you CAN do, regardless of how difficult, until it becomes a part of you. Then expand on increasing what you are capable of. In your case I would recommend focusing on forming and then holding various images. If simple shapes are easier start there, if more complex images are easier than start there. Any way you can find to access those "muscles". Find something that works and then expand on it before moving on to more difficult areas.

I hope this helps you some.

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## MrAccident

Hi Mylynes, good to see you here. Hope everything is fine with you.
It was pretty surreal to read the message from "someone". I kept wondering if I haven't wrote it. It sounded just like me; which is pretty damn rare. I actually had to check if it wasn't my message. :-D
Who ever it is - I think we would have some things to talk about; so feel free to PM me.

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## Mylynes

> Hi Mylynes, good to see you here. Hope everything is fine with you.
> It was pretty surreal to read the message from "someone". I kept wondering if I haven't wrote it. It sounded just like me; which is pretty damn rare. I actually had to check if it wasn't my message. :-D
> Who ever it is - I think we would have some things to talk about; so feel free to PM me.



I changed the name simply to avoid waiting on permission to post the pm here. I usually don't like to use content from other people without asking for permission, specially in cases where someone sends me a private message.

And yes, I have been through a lot since I was last active here, and made a lot of  progress with honing my abilities, everything is fine with me.

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## MrAccident

It is more blessed to ask forgiveness than permission.
But is it someone who reads this thread?

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## Baron Samedi

This is what annoys me, when I was a kid, I would make shapes and things with the colored blobs behind my eyelids, and I used to see fractal witches, and really crazy shit, super vivid, like hallucinations, I guess. I got scared, because I couldn't control it, and all I could do was turn it off. I wish I could turn it back on again. I totally forgot about it until just now.

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## Mylynes

> This is what annoys me, when I was a kid, I would make shapes and things with the colored blobs behind my eyelids, and I used to see fractal witches, and really crazy shit, super vivid, like hallucinations, I guess. I got scared, because I couldn't control it, and all I could do was turn it off. I wish I could turn it back on again. I totally forgot about it until just now.



This actually seems to be a common thing. I've not talked to very many people about this, but the ones I have spoken to often report that they were able to see the "canvas" or something similar as a child. I think that most people simply learn to tone it out naturally, or grow out of it over time.

If you turn on a tv, you will hear a strange high-pitch static-like noise which is most noticeable on older tvs and when you first turn them on. That noise used to drive me crazy because I tend to pay attention to details like that whether I want to or not. Even after the tv is done starting and your show comes on, this sound can still be heard in the background. Most people I have spoken with seem to not notice this at all. You get used to hearing it in the background and your mind simply tunes it out in time as unimportant.


On another note, as an expansion on the original tutorial, try manipulating your perception of sound. Many people do this all the time without realizing exactly what they are doing. Ever had a song get "stuck" in your head? Congrats! You can perceive sounds within your mind despite them not actually existing irl as sound waves. Many people also report having an inner dialog with themselves. Used in combination with your other senses this can help you to make both your dreams and "daydreams" that much more immersive. Try adding in smells as well. As far as touch goes, try adding different textures to your environments. Next time you are dreaming, try touching things and see what they feel like, try feeling the carpet or sand or mud you are walking on ect. Experiment with taste as well. Eat a banana or something and see what it tastes like. Try to make the banana taste like something else such as an orange or even pizza. lol

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## Baron Samedi

So, I had some success with this technique last night. I was finally able to focus on something with my eyes closed, a black circle. I made it change color slightly to dark red and dark green, then a square shape, then I lost control. I was doing it standing up while my wife was giving me a massage, then I suddenly felt dizzy. Not sure if doing this visualization was a factor or not.

I remember as a kid, even as a teenager, seeing dark blue, red, and green blobs when I closed my eyes, then I read this book, "How to See Better Without Glasses," which said that people with perfect sight usually see total black when they close their eyes, so I practiced doing that, and I was able to see total black all the time, but it didn't help me see any better. I just remembered this.

I also remember being told that I'm a weirdo by other kids for seeing colors when I close my eyes when I was little.

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## phasemancer

Some activity in this thread again  :smiley: 

I'm still practicing a bit on and off, with some success, though progress is quite slow. I'm guessing what I need to increase the amount of pixels and stuff is to get in a more meditative state/more theta waves.

Since last time I posted I did manage to make this stuff work very well once, by cheating a bit. I tried practicing this after taking LSD, and suddenly all those subtle things which are so difficult to notice and manipulate became very clear and it was quite similar to a lucid dream, except more lucid. I had tried LSD before, but didn't then have hallucinations of objects, just geometric patterns, and certainly not controllable hallucinations, but after many months practicing this technique, even with my rather limited success, I was on LSD able to create dinosaurs, UFOs and Super Mario with my mind and move them around as I wanted. It was totally surreal, maybe the weirdest experience of my life, I tried creating a tyrannosaurus rex, and managed to get what really looked like a tyrannosaurus rex standing right in front of me. 

I'm still far from being able to create hallucinations of real objects when not on LSD yet, but it did help me improve a bit, as I noticed things that was very easy to notice on LSD, but very difficult to notice otherwise, that kinda helped know more what the right feeling should be when it's moving in the right direction. I haven't really practiced much the past few months though, but I'm at a stage now where I can see some patterns with my eyes open and then morph them a bit. I think the reason why it worked while on LSD is that it brings a meditative theta state, needed for hallucinations, that most people otherwise have to practice a lot to reach. Not suggesting anyone should try with LSD though, it's not for everyone.

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## phasemancer

One thing that I've found is that staring at certain types of textures, without moving my eyes and blinking as little as I can, seems to make the texture amenable to change more into what I think I see, or what I think about, rather than what I see. Tree bark is one example. Even just staring at this image on my computer works, although it may work better with a real 3d object than just an image http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._guatemala.JPG

Mylynes, does the technique work best for you if you don't move your eyes, or did it use to until you became better at it?

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## StephL

Very interesting.
By the way - pressing on your eyeballs will give a "wrong but strong" stimulus - there is a term in German - too lazy now to look it up.
Basically - the receptors for light get activated by the pressure directly - so it is "real seeing" what you get.
It is known, that our brain "censors" vision anyway.
For example - the blood vessels for your retina are actually between the light-influx per pupil and the actual receptors for anatomical reasons.
What this means, is that you have a constant shadow over your vision, where these vessels are covering up.
Now - usually you have two eyes open - so the real info is available to you - per computation of the differences of light detection.
The blanks get filled in by real light from the other eye.
But if you close one - you still do not see this "spider" of vessels. This time it is pure filling in of blanks from your brain.
Basically - a hallucination.
You can show this very nicely - and I have had this experience - when somebody looks at your background of the eye with a looking device, which sends out a lot of light, besides optical arrangements for the physician to see something.

Now comes the interesting part - once somebody only just learns this, she will not be good at only going through the pupil with her light.
Then this light does also shine through your iris - and - tata - you suddenly see these vessels - like a projection - hanging a bit of a distance outside of you.
This is what you always see - just the shadow now is not where it always is - the light falls in in an unusual angle - this is new - and there you have it - you see it.

There are many such mechanisms in place - to help us along, so to speak.
But they also can be manipulated consciously to a certain degree.
So - voluntary day-time-hallucinations should be possible, purely scientifically speaking.

But I wonder - are you always sure what is what?
Do you have a "only pure reality NOW" switch, or is there a sort of a constant incertitude about what you perceive, and it´s actual physical correlates?

Funny by the way - I did practise that as a child - almost like you say - starting in the dark and with pressing my eyes sometimes, too.
And yes - in semi-dark rooms, I was able to concentrate so much, that I could get to see something.
But not in broad daylight.
What I remember was a wolf and a wild pig - why ever I did these - don´t know (technically illusions not hallucinations*).
But I got pretty afraid of really having created that wolf and it showing up against my will. But it didn´t.
Sounds like a good method to get dream-control and per the senses.


But a bit too extreme maybe.
I imagine such an ability might bother me with too much sliding and slipping of the borders of imagination and reality.
Rather staying with visualization for now.
Were you regretting to be proficient in this from time to time, Mylynes?

*
By the way - maybe this interests someone - terminology:
A *hallucination* is something created/perceived "in thin air" - like a dragon appearing in the air above you with no planes in the sky or the like, while an* illusion* is defined as perceiving something real - like a stool - but transforming it in your mind into a small dragon for example, which may get bigger and fly - what it is called then - don´t know - maybe transformation from illusion to hallucination..?
Illusions being "easier" of course - or _more common_, when you read about people´s experiences with hallucinogens - you find descriptions of illusions which are incorrectly termed hallucinations in common language.



Oh yeah - and edit - when describing this "vision" of my own eye background vessels to a professor of ophthalmology - he got really excited and explained all this to us - finding the topic fascinating himself.
We had thought, that I had seen her´s - by some two way functioning of the device.

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## user5659

To me it looks like nREM WILD. I did not try to do it during day time, while I am awake. But I did it just before nap, on the beach and just before first main sleep.

Here is how it feels to me http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...ml#post2047410

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## Baron Samedi

I have seen the blood vessels in my eyes when I hit my head on a concrete ceiling jumping down some stairs, just for a split second. That was weird. It was like kind of watery-looking clear shapes of my blood vessels as soon as I hit my head.

***

On another note, I have been practicing this technique more. I have been able to see a type of grid with my eyes open that I see sometimes, and usually make go away because it used to make me feel like I was crazy. It's more like an overlay which may or may not be a grid. The last time the overlay was kind of red and amorphous. I hope to turn this into a Heads Up Display in my waking life eventually. 
I have been having a hard time trying to relax and practice because my cat keeps walking on me when I lie down.

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## user5659

> I have seen the blood vessels in my eyes when I hit my head on a concrete ceiling jumping down some stairs, just for a split second. That was weird. It was like kind of watery-looking clear shapes of my blood vessels as soon as I hit my head.
> 
> ***
> 
> On another note, I have been practicing this technique more. I have been able to see a type of grid with my eyes open that I see sometimes, and usually make go away because it used to make me feel like I was crazy. It's more like an overlay which may or may not be a grid. The last time the overlay was kind of red and amorphous. I hope to turn this into a Heads Up Display in my waking life eventually. 
> I have been having a hard time trying to relax and practice because my cat keeps walking on me when I lie down.



When you DEILD or simply stay between dreaming and awake, do you often see your real life place where you are falling asleep mixed with dream?

I thought I am going crazy last time I saw it. I often had some transparent objects flying around my room when I just woke up. But recently I had one dream where it was going romantic with some teacher, she was young and beautiful. I was talking to her in her class and then suddenly she transformed to a big leopard. I got shocked, woke up and that leopard was sitting in my room, he was very big. Like 3 meters tall, he was sitting here for around 5 minutes, just sitting and staring at me. That time I thought I am going crazy.
It was not SP because I could move.


And another question, did you try to do it after sleep deprivation? Like 48+ hours.

I often stayed sleep deprived due to my life style when I was 18-20 and couple of times when I did not sleep like 56 hours or more I had lots of hallucinations. Often it was my dream mixed with my waking life. I think hallucinations like schizophrenia might be just dream mixed into our waking life. By dream I am talking about our subconscious mind.

Once when I was sleep sleep deprived for more then 56 hours I was on my way home, sitting in the tram. I was observing my self with from a floating 3rd person view camera somewhere on top. I could see both, my real view and this camera view. Like mixed layers. Also when I was walking back to my apartment I could see dogs that were not real, I knew because they were kinda of fucked up, my friend confirmed that those dogs were not real. Also he had other hallucinations, he was doing LDing as well and he was not sleep with me all that time.

I am saying my dream because at that time I was pretty experienced lucid dreamer and I could control those hallucinations exactly the same way I control my dreams.

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## phasemancer

> But I wonder - are you always sure what is what?
> Do you have a "only pure reality NOW" switch, or is there a sort of a constant incertitude about what you perceive, and it´s actual physical correlates?



Actually what we "see" is never an exact representation of the physical correlates. Our eyes are like cameras sending 2D images to the visual cortex where they split into parts like lines and circles, then goes through a kind of rendering pipeline, a bit like how a computer game is rendered, that constructs a 3D image, part of this process is pattern recognition, which includes comparing the seen patterns to memories of already seen objects, this not only makes you recognize objects, but is helps determine how the constructed 3D image that the your consciousness perceives should be like, based on your memories and experiences. The more ambiguous something you see is, or the less data the input contains, the more prone you are to the brain filling in more details with what whatever the pattern recognition systems thinks stuff should be, I think that consciously thinking about objects might be able to skew the pattern recognition process towards whatever object(s) you're thinking about.

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## Mylynes

> One thing that I've found is that staring at certain types of textures, without moving my eyes and blinking as little as I can, seems to make the texture amenable to change more into what I think I see, or what I think about, rather than what I see. Tree bark is one example. Even just staring at this image on my computer works, although it may work better with a real 3d object than just an image http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._guatemala.JPG
> 
> Mylynes, does the technique work best for you if you don't move your eyes, or did it use to until you became better at it?



Now it doesn't matter, but I think back in the beginning I did tend to avoid too much eye movement. It seems as if when your eyes move, the images tend to usually move with your eyes.





> Very interesting.
> By the way - pressing on your eyeballs will give a "wrong but strong" stimulus - there is a term in German - too lazy now to look it up.
> *Right, I think I may have mentioned in the first post that this may be used to get a feel for things and initially be able to see the "canvas" but the idea is to be able to control these hallucinations/illusions without needing to put pressure on the eyes. And I am not sure at all but it seems like putting pressure on your eyes regularly may be bad for them.*
> Basically - the receptors for light get activated by the pressure directly - so it is "real seeing" what you get.
> It is known, that our brain "censors" vision anyway.
> For example - the blood vessels for your retina are actually between the light-influx per pupil and the actual receptors for anatomical reasons.
> What this means, is that you have a constant shadow over your vision, where these vessels are covering up.
> Now - usually you have two eyes open - so the real info is available to you - per computation of the differences of light detection.
> The blanks get filled in by real light from the other eye.
> ...









> I have seen the blood vessels in my eyes when I hit my head on a concrete ceiling jumping down some stairs, just for a split second. That was weird. It was like kind of watery-looking clear shapes of my blood vessels as soon as I hit my head.
> 
> ***
> 
> On another note, I have been practicing this technique more. I have been able to see a type of grid with my eyes open that I see sometimes, and usually make go away because it used to make me feel like I was crazy. It's more like an overlay which may or may not be a grid. The last time the overlay was kind of red and amorphous. I hope to turn this into a Heads Up Display in my waking life eventually. 
> I have been having a hard time trying to relax and practice because my cat keeps walking on me when I lie down.



HUDs are fun. Both while dreaming and awake.

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## Baron Samedi

> When you DEILD or simply stay between dreaming and awake, do you often see your real life place where you are falling asleep mixed with dream?
> 
> *No, not often, but sometimes. I usually have auditory HH as I fall asleep compared to visuals. For some reason the visual HH seems to be from mostly as I wake. I hardly have dream-bleed over.* 
> 
> I thought I am going crazy last time I saw it. I often had some transparent objects flying around my room when I just woke up. But recently I had one dream where it was going romantic with some teacher, she was young and beautiful. I was talking to her in her class and then suddenly she transformed to a big leopard. I got shocked, woke up and that leopard was sitting in my room, he was very big. Like 3 meters tall, he was sitting here for around 5 minutes, just sitting and staring at me. That time I thought I am going crazy.
> It was not SP because I could move.
> 
> *Five minutes? Amazing. What did you do? Sit there and stare? One time I woke up to a siren, stood up, looked out the window, and saw nothing. No one else heard it. I then realized I was somehow having and auditory hallucination that bled over from my dream.*
> 
> ...



Cool!




> Actually what we "see" is never an exact representation of the physical correlates. Our eyes are like cameras sending 2D images to the visual cortex where they split into parts like lines and circles, then goes through a kind of rendering pipeline, a bit like how a computer game is rendered, that constructs a 3D image, part of this process is pattern recognition, which includes comparing the seen patterns to memories of already seen objects, this not only makes you recognize objects, but is helps determine how the constructed 3D image that the your consciousness perceives should be like, based on your memories and experiences. The more ambiguous something you see is, or the less data the input contains, the more prone you are to the brain filling in more details with what whatever the pattern recognition systems thinks stuff should be, I think that consciously thinking about objects might be able to skew the pattern recognition process towards whatever object(s) you're thinking about.



Another funny idea: we only see the past, never the present. Not only that, we do not see objects, but reflections of light, not the actual objects. Not only that, the farther away something is, the farther in the past it is. Think of a star 20 light years away that died in 2000. We would still perceive the star's light until 2020, and perceive the supernova of its death in 2020, because it would take 20 years for that light to get here. 





> Now it doesn't matter, but I think back in the beginning I did tend to avoid too much eye movement. It seems as if when your eyes move, the images tend to usually move with your eyes.
> HUDs are fun. Both while dreaming and awake.



I have found that if I try to look at a certain spot without moving my eyes, it works better that moving my eyeballs around. 
I also just remembered how much I used to hallucinate while completely sober, but I would turn it off, because I felt crazy. (And of course when I told people they would say that I was.) I notice it happens often with patterns, such as concrete, grass, bark, wallpaper with tiny designs, etc. Sometimes things seems to melt into each other or breathe and pulse.

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## user5659

*WakindNomad*, yea, talking about auditory HH. I am having them pretty often when I wake up. When I go to sleep I usually do not have any auditory HH, even when I do nREM WILD, all audio seems to be damped.

I had all kinds of auditory HH when I woke up. One morning I could hear rock music somewhere in my apartment, I was not sure where is it coming from. I was the only one who could hear it. Every time I DEILD'ed I woke up because of that music, it was not connected to my DEILD dream. It continue for around 1 hour, I was trying to fall asleep again and DEILD into the dream, but this music kept waking me up. I walked into other room and to the balcony, but every time I stood up - music stopped and continued when I went back to sleep.

Recently I had some old school radio show playing in my room, it was so clear. I kept looking for my and my wife's phone, by the time I found them, HH stopped. And there was nothing on those phones, so it was my HH for sure.

And regarding meth-heads, I am not taking any drugs or medicine, in case you thought I did  :smiley:

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## Baron Samedi

> *WakindNomad*, yea, talking about auditory HH. I am having them pretty often when I wake up. When I go to sleep I usually do not have any auditory HH, even when I do nREM WILD, all audio seems to be damped.
> 
> I had all kinds of auditory HH when I woke up. One morning I could hear rock music somewhere in my apartment, I was not sure where is it coming from. I was the only one who could hear it. Every time I DEILD'ed I woke up because of that music, it was not connected to my DEILD dream. It continue for around 1 hour, I was trying to fall asleep again and DEILD into the dream, but this music kept waking me up. I walked into other room and to the balcony, but every time I stood up - music stopped and continued when I went back to sleep.
> 
> Recently I had some old school radio show playing in my room, it was so clear. I kept looking for my and my wife's phone, by the time I found them, HH stopped. And there was nothing on those phones, so it was my HH for sure.
> 
> And regarding meth-heads, I am not taking any drugs or medicine, in case you thought I did



No, I didn't think you are a meth-head. I don't think zombies like the intarwebs. I assumed you stayed up on sheer will alone, the way I used when I was 18-20.

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## M45t3r

Hey Mylynes
Very interesting technique you've discovered, however I seem to have a dilema.
When I focus on 1 point with my eyes closed, I seem to put a slight strain on them. It does help me see canvas a bit, but it can feel sometimes unpleasant. Is it possible to get same effect with your eyes relaxed?
When you got better at your technique, have your eyes moved towards the projected visuals or did you keep your eyes neutral?

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## Mylynes

> Hey Mylynes
> Very interesting technique you've discovered, however I seem to have a dilema.
> When I focus on 1 point with my eyes closed, I seem to put a slight strain on them. It does help me see canvas a bit, but it can feel sometimes unpleasant. Is it possible to get same effect with your eyes relaxed?
> When you got better at your technique, have your eyes moved towards the projected visuals or did you keep your eyes neutral?



Strain is not a good thing, if something feels wrong you should probably cease whatever you are doing and wait a while before going back to practice/experimenting. A lot of the base for this you simply have to figure out on your own. It is hard to explain how to make your mind move your arm, or try to discover muscles that are there but never been used, such as to wiggle your ear, or in this case create visuals.

Also, I might be a bit strange because in my dreams I tend to not have a single visual focus point. I never blink, and even if not using 360 vision, I usually take all of my vision in at the same time with no focal point. The edges of my vision are just as clear as the center area. I also enjoy splitting my visual input, to get visuals from multiple forms all being sent to my mind simultaneously.

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## Baron Samedi

Since I started practicing this, along with time dilation, some strange things have been happening to my mind, aural hallucinations, hearing the wailing of tormented souls in the grind of steel machines, voices whispering in the wind, batting at my HUD in waking life... This technique can be a real mindfuck. Hold on to your sanity tightly. You have been warned.

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## Mylynes

Thinking about starting a new thread on Dream Control Mastery, to tell how I got my skills. Will include my Vision Control tutorial since it is relevant and the old thread is getting a bit long. So kind of like a part 2 to my original tutorial.

Edit:
http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...-tutorial.html
Created the thread, marked it as under construction. Working on it now.

It won't let me edit the original post in this thread, says it is too old to edit.  ::?:

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## Baron Samedi

> Thinking about starting a new thread on Dream Control Mastery, to tell how I got my skills. Will include my Vision Control tutorial since it is relevant and the old thread is getting a bit long. So kind of like a part 2 to my original tutorial.
> 
> Edit:
> http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-cont...-tutorial.html
> Created the thread, marked it as under construction. Working on it now.
> 
> It won't let me edit the original post in this thread, says it is too old to edit.



I think mods may be able to let you edit it if you ask them.

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## DeltaV

I knew of the static-like pattern (which becomes more obvious after waking up in the middle of the night, my vision becomes oddly grainy), and by cupping my hands over my eyes I can create very vague shadows of images. They never really last, though, and seem to be more like seeing shapes in the clouds than anything else. It's interesting, as my mind sort of autopilots the creation process, the images it produces are either completely uninfluenced, or only slighty, by me thinking about something.
Then I read this thread. Did you just say that you are able to hallucinate images and sensory inputs at _will_, at any moment? Because that is even cooler than lucid dreaming, which is saying a LOT. I am gonna try so hard to master this.

A question: if you start creating something, what do you feel, and where do you feel it?

EDIT: Also, a funny thing I noticed. Visual hypnagogic hallucinations (for me blobs of black and green-ish tints moving about) can overlay themselves over normal vision. Just go to bed, lie down, wait until the hypnagogia comes, open your eyes, and stare unfocused. For me, it's not really useful, as I cannot control it, but I can probably just learn that too.

ANOTHEREDIT: The grainy-pixel-static effect is also visible in light, along with the weak shadowy images. The images are not clear enough to make out any general shape, and are often hard to see, but I do seem to have a weak degree of control over them.

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## Baron Samedi

So today I was on the pot detoxing from a diatomaceous earth-coffee enema, and suddenly my vision got bright and dim, dim and bright. Then, I was able to make it go at will! I kept trying it, making my vision kind of flash, and I was able to do it about 3 or 4, times, then I couldn't. I didn't try and force it. 
I think maybe the detox is helping my psionic control. peace.

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## PKJacker

Well I've been playing with this basically for years since I have it quite obviously blocking my view, kindof messes up my sight at times. 

The only thing though, is I am not as proficient as you are, I can only make my vision go black and white, or blue.

Then when I try to make things all I can make are eyes and faces. 



Also some interesting things are that when I'm bored, I can make my vision swirl like as if I was staring at that spinning optical illusion thing. And I can make the 'canvas' go from big pixels to small pixels and back, also make them form smudgy looking lines and pulsing waves.


BTW Don't put too much pressure on certain parts of your  (the top part near the middle of your face) or you can go blind for a couple seconds, I used to do that for fun but it probably screwed up my eyes quite a bit.

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## PKJacker

Yea has anyone got good enough to help me with this? 
I tried making a hand today by forming a big blue circle then shrinking it down to fit over the hand shape I would've liked, but when I try this I can only get it small enough that it makes a round bottom with spiky stuff on top.... not really a hand. Also I tried making a box, but that took at least 15 minutes of building using changing light level to basically capture each side and hold it.

Then I can make eyes and faces pretty decently, but I can't really figure out how I'm doing it, I feel like the only reason why I can even make the eyes is because I'm focusing on trying to make stuff with my eyes so the eyes just come up out of that, same with faces that have their eyes closed.

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## Baron Samedi

> Yea has anyone got good enough to help me with this? 
> I tried making a hand today by forming a big blue circle then shrinking it down to fit over the hand shape I would've liked, but when I try this I can only get it small enough that it makes a round bottom with spiky stuff on top.... not really a hand. Also I tried making a box, but that took at least 15 minutes of building using changing light level to basically capture each side and hold it.
> 
> Then I can make eyes and faces pretty decently, but I can't really figure out how I'm doing it, I feel like the only reason why I can even make the eyes is because I'm focusing on trying to make stuff with my eyes so the eyes just come up out of that, same with faces that have their eyes closed.



You're better than me! That's cool!

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## PKJacker

Well I've been messing around yesterday at night and made an eye like I usually do, but I figured out how to add jewels around the eyes to make a jeweled mask.I didn't stop with just a few jewels and filled my whole vision.then I got scared and realized I couldn't turn the image off and got even more freaked out since when I opened my eyes the image was still there..

So I tried to put an image over it and no luck, it just kept coming back. So I just waited till I finally feel asleep and when I wrote up it was gone luckily.


EDIT: I think the reason I had this problem is I became stressed because I built it right infront of my eyes so it was blocking my vision. The stress made me keep thinking about the problem, and kept the image in my mind and blocking my view, that was probably the hardest night of trying to fall asleep I've ever had...

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## Baron Samedi

> Well I've been messing around yesterday at night and made an eye like I usually do, but I figured out how to add jewels around the eyes to make a jeweled mask.I didn't stop with just a few jewels and filled my whole vision.then I got scared and realized I couldn't turn the image off and got even more freaked out since when I opened my eyes the image was still there..
> 
> So I tried to put an image over it and no luck, it just kept coming back. So I just waited till I finally feel asleep and when I wrote up it was gone luckily.
> 
> 
> EDIT: I think the reason I had this problem is I became stressed because I built it right infront of my eyes so it was blocking my vision. The stress made me keep thinking about the problem, and kept the image in my mind and blocking my view, that was probably the hardest night of trying to fall asleep I've ever had...



Wow, sounds really cool! I wish I could do that. Oh! I do remember beginning to form some HH into fairies! Totally forgot about that until you reminded me. They were kind of dark still, but beginning to take shape and smile at me.

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## PKJacker

> Wow, sounds really cool! I wish I could do that. Oh! I do remember beginning to form some HH into fairies! Totally forgot about that until you reminded me. They were kind of dark still, but beginning to take shape and smile at me.



Well the way I kindof got started is first just focusing on learning not to try to use my eyes to see what I was trying to create, and find that other thing that creates it (my eyes still twitch to try to see the picture better, stupid impulses)

After that I tried a brute force method of doing everything possible to induce pictures, except I was using the way I create eyes as a kind of general area to look at.

So far I am hopeless at making squares and stuff, but I can do eyes pretty well except not very detailed because I never tried the way I froze that jeweled mask on an eye image and when I create the eyes I keep twitching and that just breaks the image completely.

So far I found that when trying to create stuff, there's no easy way to draw it for me, I just have to keep searching in my mind for that shape, then I'll be able to use it, like I found a line, but the line has little hairs on it that constantly move, and all my attempts to downsize it have been failures.



Now going back to that image of the mask that I had stuck in my vision, after that night I have it permanently in one of my canvas' since I can bring it up basically at any time, and it'll look exactly the same. It made sense when it happened to me though cause sometimes when I'm looking for a certain image, I feel like I'm cycling through canvas' I have already and selecting the one I want when I find it, except whenever I see the jeweled one I still remember how scared I was that night when it got stuck there, and I won't be able to get rid of the canvas for a few minutes.

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## Baron Samedi

> Well the way I kindof got started is first just focusing on learning not to try to use my eyes to see what I was trying to create, and find that other thing that creates it (my eyes still twitch to try to see the picture better, stupid impulses)
> 
> After that I tried a brute force method of doing everything possible to induce pictures, except I was using the way I create eyes as a kind of general area to look at.
> 
> So far I am hopeless at making squares and stuff, but I can do eyes pretty well except not very detailed because I never tried the way I froze that jeweled mask on an eye image and when I create the eyes I keep twitching and that just breaks the image completely.
> 
> So far I found that when trying to create stuff, there's no easy way to draw it for me, I just have to keep searching in my mind for that shape, then I'll be able to use it, like I found a line, but the line has little hairs on it that constantly move, and all my attempts to downsize it have been failures.
> 
> 
> ...



I just had an idea you may want to try: Make the mask come down on to your face and put it on, then see through its eyes.

Anyway, yes, I have found that the HH images are easier to see if I don't stare at it. An example is when I am awake, and I see a grid, some of my HUD, or things get wavy or breathe. If I stare at the hallucination, it seems to go away, but it I see it without looking at it, it stays there. 
I've also had the opposite experience altering afterimages of the sun's reflection on my eyeball, staring at a white wall.

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## PKJacker

> I just had an idea you may want to try: Make the mask come down on to your face and put it on, then see through its eyes.



 Right now I can only make it 2dimensional so that wouldn't really work, plus putting stuff that might block my eye sight still scares me too much to try.





> I've also had the opposite experience altering afterimages of the sun's reflection on my eyeball, staring at a white wall.



I'd recommend using just a bright-ish lamp instead of looking at the sun, since the sun can actually hurt your eyes, and there's no need for such an intense light if you're trying to get after images.

Although I've never tried modifying any after image so maybe the imprint the sun makes is different from others, I still suggest you try to find an alternative to the sun.

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## Baron Samedi

> Right now I can only make it 2dimensional so that wouldn't really work, plus putting stuff that might block my eye sight still scares me too much to try.
> 
> *Then, do it! hahaha*
> 
> I'd recommend using just a bright-ish lamp instead of looking at the sun, since the sun can actually hurt your eyes, and there's no need for such an intense light if you're trying to get after images.
> 
> Although I've never tried modifying any after image so maybe the imprint the sun makes is different from others, I still suggest you try to find an alternative to the sun.



Yes, I was looking at the reflection of the sun on a plant, so I am pretty sure it was harmless.

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## PKJacker

Well after a while of thinking I would give up on it, I started doing it again. 

Yesterday I was able to make a fuzzy face on the back of a head of a toy I have in my room while it was mostly in the dark. 

Then later I was able to look at the place in my room where the 2 walls and the ceiling meet, draw that out while it was pretty bight in the room, then turn off the light and see it! Best part is I was able to move my head and it stayed in the one area that I drew it at, it didn't get stuck to my eyes like that jeweled mask did.

I did some other stuff after that, but nothing too impressive.


Btw an update on the jeweled mask: I still have it over my vision, but only if I look for it, it's pretty weird. Wonder if I'll ever be able to erase it.

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## vuduchild

I think this is dangerous

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## PKJacker

> I think this is dangerous



Like all things, there is a certain level of risk, so you have to be willing to take that risk in order to get the reward.

I personally am still trying to achieve a high level of skill in this area and find it a rewarding thing to strive for.


For me personally it opens up a whole new way of dealing with asking life, for example you'd be able to quickly make a drawing on paper without ever using a pencil or brush.  Things like that encourage people to take that necessary risk in this process.

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## gleixer

Has anyone become good enough at AVC to try this out? http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...ml#post2111504

I am not quite good enough but I want to test the theory.

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## Avian

I want to try this but first, could you tell me if you can restore things to default? I don't mean you know your monitor is black so you make it black. Say you forget what color your monitor is, can you restore it to default? I'm not worried about getting stuck in a false world, I would just turn it into a paradise. I just don't want my family to have to watch me lose touch with reality until I go completely schizophrenia. So before I go any further with this I need you to answer the above question.

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## MisakaMikoto

> I want to try this but first, could you tell me if you can restore things to default? I don't mean you know your monitor is black so you make it black. Say you forget what color your monitor is, can you restore it to default? I'm not worried about getting stuck in a false world, I would just turn it into a paradise. I just don't want my family to have to watch me lose touch with reality until I go completely schizophrenia. So before I go any further with this I need you to answer the above question.



I myself wouldn't take a risk for such unreliable power  ::-P: 
Dream Control is not that bad anyway even without Advanced Vision Control.
And if you want to use A.V.C. for WILDs then it is still possible for it to not work and just result in falling asleep unconsciously.
Same way counting anchor during WILDs makes some fall asleep and other get successful WILDs

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## Avian

> I myself wouldn't take a risk for such unreliable power 
> Dream Control is not that bad anyway even without Advanced Vision Control.
> And if you want to use A.V.C. for WILDs then it is still possible for it to not work and just result in falling asleep unconsciously.
> Same way counting anchor during WILDs makes some fall asleep and other get successful WILDs



Well I'm thinking if you had a mastery of all your senses you could use this to become extremely successful in the real world. You could enhance physical abilities with an adrenaline rush, you could block out certain sounds in order to achieve a kind of super hearing. The possibilities are endless. It just seems like something too good to pass on, but since I have a hyper-active imagination I don't want it to get out of control.

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## Elaol

> Well I'm thinking if you had a mastery of all your senses you could use this to become extremely successful in the real world. You could enhance physical abilities with an adrenaline rush, you could block out certain sounds in order to achieve a kind of super hearing. The possibilities are endless. It just seems like something too good to pass on, but since I have a hyper-active imagination I don't want it to get out of control.



I think this is good only for lucid dreaming. If you develop LDD to really high level where you can interact with imaginary characters, that sounds like schizophrenia to me, seems like you can forget how to differentiate reality from imagination. But for lucid dreams it sounds perfect.

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## lonewolf101

Of course. For me, I would imagine an off button, so if I wanted to see regular reality, I would just press the button. You can rreally make as much counter measures as you want, and you can be as developed as you let yourself be.

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## Makke

I'm currently able to achieve these very pleasant and relaxing flow of colors, pulsating below my eye lids, usually comes around 5-10 minutes after laying in bed with my sleeping mask on staring into the black void. The pulsating colors are very relaxing and I'm almost a bit excited about achieving it each night. What would my next step be? How can I increase my focus and achieve this faster or for a longer duration?  :Cheeky: 

Edit: lonewolf101 I'm waiting for more updates in your closed eye hallucination topic!

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## Avian

What is an eye mask?

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## MisakaMikoto

> What is an eye mask?



I belive he means the 'Sleep Mask'

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## Makke

> I belive he means the 'Sleep Mask'



that is correct, changed my post now

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## Devoney

> Really this is far beyond just dream control. You practice while awake and it is meant to be used while being awake but can lead to new ways of easily controlling your dream. After I add in the other senses this will be a tutorial on how to manipulate all of your senses directly.



I've got the idea that you are very well into the technical aspects of experiencing something. But I kind of get the idea that it is not really related to spiritual growth. In my opinion one should be focusing on becoming awake in reality by overcoming your limitations by overcoming fear, order to grow, so you can choose to create synergy. I do not see how your technique is anything related to spiritual growth, it seems to be a thrill ride to me only.

There is only one reality, there is no such thing as awake vs dream reality. An experience in physical life is worth as much as an experience from the dream world if you learn the same things from it. It is only about the usefulness of the experience. It is not about in which environment (dream or physical) you have experienced it. That doesn't matter at all. So that your method is meant to be used only in one aspect of reality makes it very less appealing, and not universal to apply. And therefore, logically, isn't usable for spiritual growth, and therefore is insignificant. Though you seem to 'sell' it as it is worth more than "just dream control".

What did this method teach you in aspects of growing spiritually, and consciously choosing to create synergy?

Fact is that none of what you described matters a bit, if there is no spiritual growth in it. How does your method relate to what all great spiritual masters teach? Dali lama and Thomas Campbell are both very different in describing reality, but both great minds describe the very same essence: grow by focusing on synergy.

I now your ego is hurt now. But be honest, and this applies to all readers of this topic that are (seemingly) seeking a thrill ride:
Would you be better of if 
a) all your inner characters (your inner child, the father/mother, the neighbor, the spouse...) are hallucinating for their own fun? 
b) Or when all your inner characters seeking to work together to be able to cope with a larger reality by growing up and adding value to the reality?

You are not different to reality than a character in your mind is to you. Both are merely perspectives of the same mind. You and I have the same mind.So you and I are together on this. So please, come back from your thrill ride and start seeking to what your real purpose is in this life.

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## Pali

Devoney,

Reading through the content on this forum, I also remember often that this is "just" playing with force/control. I also had the urge to comment along the lines of what you wrote.
But now, when I saw how nicely you articulated the "issue", I changed my view a bit.

I don't know what various people here need to grow up. 
For a long time I was under the impression that focusing onto being "helpful" to others is the correct way, the correct intent. I am not saying to not try to be helpful, but trying implied in my case desire/need/expectation. I didn't see it until recently.
Now my intent is to see possibilities out of a balanced state of being and decreasing entropy by being the authentic me at the right time, in the right place.

So basically I just wanted to say that we all should do what we are drawn to do. 
Learning control first and then noticing that the cart was in front of the horse is a good way to get power/focus before learning to use it constructively. Everyone has their own unique way and there is no rush. Rushing things implies fear/ego.

You cannot teach truth by talking about it. People need to experience the truth in their own time and in their own way.

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## MisakaMikoto

Sorry for bumping this thread but here's interesting though i'd like to share:

Fully accomplishing what this guide teaches might give us ability to lucid dream without falling asleep in form of closed-eye hallucination
The benefit of this method to lucid dream is having them at will and they can be as long as you want them to be ( 6 hours even )
but disadvantage is that there's no sleep paralysis so you need to be extra careful (Use imagined movement instead of actual movement?)
And yeah, you might have unwanted hallucinations during daytime

But there's a way to prevent that,
Do what guide teaches you but skip step 3 (Moving closed-eye hallucinations into open-eye space)
That way you won't have to worry about hallucinating while going to school and when you close your eyes you still will be able to lucid dream  :;-): 

Just a random idea of mine
I'm going to try out myself this technique as long as i wont get too lazy  ::D:

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## Hukif

Why not separate it as a lucid playground in a different "thought" area then? I much prefer the traditional lucid dream, but will have different areas of thoughts playing every once in a while when planning evil stuff to do in dreams.

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