# Lucid Dreaming > General Lucid Discussion >  >  would it be a sin?

## luv2dream

ok, first off this isn't something that i'm trying to be too serious about, I'm just curious what people might think, and if you're not religious at all, it's fine if you comment on something, but please no "religion sucks" comments, honestly, from experience, those conversations are a waste of time. Ok so here's the question. You can do whatever you want in a lucid dream right? So if I did something in a dream that people would consider a sin in real life, like raping someone (even though I have no intention of EVER doing that, it's just an example) would you consider it a sin? Even though it's in a dreamworld and you're not really doing it, but you're concious and you're controlling yourself to do it? Just wondering

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## Shaderem X

In my opinion, it's ok to experiment dangerous things, as long as it's in a dream. I don't think a simple dream would be considered a sin. I mean, as long as you're not serious about it and not planning on using it as training for reality, then I think a simple dream-experiment is no sin. But I'm not of any religion (I don't think), so anyone may correct me.

But raping's a little too far...

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## COSMIC

Well there's no such thing as a Sin. That's just a way some people choose to perceive something on what they're conditioned to believe is right or wrong & I think most of us judge it pretty well (I'm sure you're not a rapist).

In dreamstate all you have is you, your inner self & everything outside created from it so you're only playing with yourself.  :smiley: 

There are no rules.

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## horsebucket

Its not a sin but I feel bad doing bad things in dreams just like I would in real life. For example say I blow something up in a dream and accidentally kill someone I feel bad even though I know the persons imaginary. Whenever I beat someone up in a dream for the fun of it I usually regret it and feel bad despite the fact its just a dream.

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## Mes Tarrant

Nah, it's not a sin.

If you were to do that intentionally on a regular basis, however, like that was your motivation to LD, then I would have questions.  ::D:

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## AURON

put it this way....i've killed trillions of people in video games...but I wouldn't consider those sins....thats the way i look at it.

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## luv2dream

> put it this way....i've killed trillions of people in video games...but I wouldn't consider those sins....thats the way i look at it.



true, i never thought of it that way, cause in video games you're still intentionally killing someone.

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## Elwood

Maybe, if you like rapped them and murdered their family, probably. But in lucids ive never had to rape a girl. They fall in love with me when i want them to. (little trick i learned  :smiley:

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

lol everyone's making raping comments now!

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## luv2dream

> lol everyone's making raping comments now!



yeah haha, dont worry i'm definately NOT a rapist! :p

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## luv2dream

> Well there's no such thing as a Sin. That's just a way some people choose to perceive something on what they're conditioned to believe is right or wrong



you mean like just how someone perceives the mistakes they've made? kinda like how calories dont really exist, they're just a way to measure how much of whatever it is is in something... i think

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## Amethyst Star

As a Christian, I do believe in the notion of sin, so here's my take on it.  When you're awake, you are making conscious decisions that you are accountable for.  However, in a normal dream, you are not conscious and your mind makes decisions and projects images and scenarios that are not (for the most part) under your control.  When you're lucid, though, I would consider that the same as being awake/conscious and you are making decisions.

Ergo, if you did something you knew was wrong in real life, it would be wrong to do in an LD.  Let me know if you have any other questions.

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## Oneironaught

If it feels wrong in your dreams then don't do it. But, since you can't hurt anyone in a dream, I would't call it "sin". It's your dream and your morals. Do what feels right to you.

Now, I wouldn't encourage you do go around raping in your dreams because it teaches you that if you want something you just take it. But still, if you can keep that attitude confined to _only_ your dream world then I don't see much harm in it.

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## Bonsay

If the bible is the source of all gods rules and stuff, check it for dreaming. If there is nothing about dreaming, then there are no rules.

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## Silvanus350

I am a Christian as well, and since I've considered this myself (very good question!) I'll answer seriously.

_"I the Lord search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve." ~ Jeremiah 17:10_

_"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'  But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." ~ Matthew 5:27, 28

"The the Lord said to him, 'Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.  You foolish people!  Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?  But give what is inside the dish to the poor, and everything will be made clean for you." ~ Luke 11:39-41

"You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness." ~ Ephesians 4:22-24

"Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed.  As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance.  But just as he who called you is holy, be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy.'" ~ 1 Peter 1:13-16

_Plenty of stuff in these verses, but we're only looking at one specific thing: that sin can be independent of action.

The first verse shows us something important: that God examines your heart and mind.  To put it simply, he looks beyond how you act to examine what motivates those actions.  After all, in a literal and philosophical way what you think will affect how you act.  God examines your mind and rewards you for your deeds.

The second verse reveals rather blatantly that you don't have to commit a physical act to be guilty of a sin.  Some of the sharper readers will catch the words "look at a woman" and say that you _are_ actually doing something physical, but it goes beyond that.  You don't have to sleep with a woman to be guilty of adultery, you don't have to murder your brother to be guilty of murder, keeping the law goes beyond the actions, you must keep the _spirit_ of that law.

The third quote is likely the most important.  Everyone knows what the Pharisees were guilty of: hypocrisy.  The same thing is being stated here (though Christ doesn't actually call them hypocrites) that even though the Pharisees never broke their laws in deed, they never kept the spirit of them in their hearts.

Fourth verse simply shows that your mind (thoughts) factors into your new life in Christ.

This is the killer, there's no real way to wiggle around the phrase "be holy in all you do."  Given the above verses, I think we can conclude that one's thoughts and attitudes factor into that statement.

There are plenty of other verses which add weight to this argument, but I think these are enough.  Having a lucid dream and then gleefully committing atrocious acts, even if it's all in your head and never harms anyone but yourself, is probably considered a sin.

You guys can do whatever you want with this, I just felt like adding my two cents.  *luv2dream* I don't know what denomination you belong to or how you'd rate your faith life right now, but if you still have reservations about this prayer is a good idea.

All verses were taken from a Concordia Self-Study NIV Bible, from a Lutheran perspective (though I don't think that really affects this topic).  I came up with this in about 10 minutes, I could probably do better but I'm _really_ tired.

Good night everybody.  ::content::

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## Tranquil Toad

> Lots of text



I'm not a christian, but from what i read there i wouldn't agree with you. You said "that God examines your heart and mind," so he sees your inner motives and morals regardless of any action you perform. This would lead me to believe that, since in lucid dreams you are essentially only interacting with your subconscious, no one is harmed. And furthermore, you are fully aware that no one is coming to harm (or the woman you are lusting over is actually just part of yourself, the ultimate form of masturbation ), *god knows that you do not have ill intentions*. As someone mentioned before, it’s essentially the same as killing a person in a video game. Does god look down at me for running all those people over in GTA?

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## Marvo

Excactly, Tranquil Toad.

The game model also works great.

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## Hazel

Hmm... I never thought about that. I couldn't tell you for sure, but it MIGHT not be... Ok, I had to ask my father and he said it wouldn't be a sin because it didn't actually happen.

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## Hazel

> I'm not a christian, but from what i read there i wouldn't agree with you. You said "that God examines your heart and mind," so he sees your inner motives and morals regardless of any action you perform. This would lead me to believe that, since in lucid dreams you are essentially only interacting with your subconscious, no one is harmed. And furthermore, you are fully aware that no one is coming to harm (or the woman you are lusting over is actually just part of yourself, the ultimate form of masturbation ), god knows that you do not have ill intentions. As someone mentioned before, it’s essentially the same as killing a person in a video game. Does god look down at me for running all those people over in GTA?



Although, I WAS thinking something like that to start with. I think that's more probable. But I don't know for sure. Maybe you should just do what feels right for you.

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## Oneironaught

> *Fire and brimstone.*



Not to devalue your stance here but you can't apply the same laws of conduct to dreams as you would physical - or even spiritual - life. Dreams are the realm of pure fantasy. What matters it that you are capable and mature enough to differentiate the two worlds.

Is a fiction writer bound to his conscious when spinning a fantastic yar*n*? No. He's bound only to his imagination. He understands that "harm", "fear", "right" and "wrong" are only concepts and conventions in the fantasy world.

It's how you think and act in waking life that determines your character. That's who you are. If dreams accurately mirrored our true selves then (and I hate to tell you this), by your God's standards, we're all going to rot and burn in hell for eternity

EDIT in bold.

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## Caradon

> Not to devalue your stance here but you can't apply the same laws of conduct to dreams as you would physical - or even spiritual - life. Dreams are the realm of pure fantasy. What matters it that you are capable and mature enough to differentiate the two worlds.
> 
> Is a fiction writer bound to his conscious when spinning a fantastic yard? No. He's bound only to his imagination. He understands that "harm", "fear", "right" and "wrong" are only concepts and conventions in the fantasy world.
> 
> It's how you think and act in waking life that determines your character. That's who you are. If dreams accurately mirrored our true selves then (and I hate to tell you this), by your God's standards, we're all going to rot and burn in hell for eternity



I agree with Oneironaught on this. But I also think it's wise to try and treat dream characters with respect as much as possible. At least to a certain point. It's probably not the healthiest thing, to be going around doing awful things to people in dreams on a regular basis.

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## Marvo

Oneironaught is right. Also, during dreaming, we think in other ways. We're not ourselfs.

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## Onimal

Its kind of a question of action over intention, which has been going on for centuries.

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## VenusBlue

I honestly think that if your Beliefs tell you it is a "Sin" to steal from people, murder people, and a slew of other things...Than stealing from people, and murdering people etc. in lucid dreams, and in videogames would be a "Sin". That said, I myself am not a christian, and I do believe a good bodycount, be it in dreams, or in games, can be fun, therapeutic, and can relieve a good deal of stress at times.

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## towarmforacoat

Everyone, no matter who they are, has imagined killing someone or committing some horrible crime. Therefore, when one dreams such, it is the equivalent of one imagining it just more realistic. Raping someone in an LD can't be a sin because it is reflective of one's imagination, and unless you imagine the church robbery you plan to pull off tomorrow, your not sinning your just playing. Also, how do you think writers are able to describe the rape or killing they write about? they research and imagine the experience.

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## Blµb

I'd consider that some kind of... self-help....
Maybe not when raping somebody... depends on the situation...

But when somebody does something you don't like, and you get really angry, then letting off steam in an LD can help.
Like smashing pillows onto the wall, smashing that person's head in a LD, is a way to let off steam.

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## The Cusp

According to what I've been reading of theosophy, wanting to do something evil is just as bad actually doing it.  When you want do to something and you don't, the only thing holding you back is fear of consequences.  If there were no consequences, you would likely go ahead and do it if that's what you really wanted.

It there were suddenly no law, there would be a lot more murderers in the world, among other things.  But it wouldn't be the removal of the law that turned them evil.

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## towarmforacoat

> According to what I've been reading of theosophy, wanting to do something evil is just as bad actually doing it.  When you want do to something and you don't, the only thing holding you back is fear of consequences.  If there were no consequences, you would likely go ahead and do it if that's what you really wanted.
> 
> It there were suddenly no law, there would be a lot more murderers in the world, among other things.  But it wouldn't be the removal of the law that turned them evil.



  Some of this is true, but have you ever heard of the reason people have locks on their doors. "It's not to keep bad people out, but it is to keep the good people out," basically, laws are like locks, they can't truly stop people, but they remove temptation from the good people. 
  I'm sure that although there would be more crime and murder, many of the extra people doing so would really not be evil but tempted. Not to say that they would not be sinning, since temptation is a sin, but they would not be evil people. 
  Also, if there were no laws in the first place, then that means that people wouldn't be doing something wrong; their perspectives would be different from ours. To us, killing is evil, meanwhile to lawless community, it is just natural impulse.
  There is no law in the dream world and no locks to hold you back, so if you just acted impulsively eventually you will get the impulse to kill someone (It happens all the time very naturally) and you would.  It works the same with rape and other crimes.  This is just what I believe, and if you don't agree, fine.

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## Oneironaught

> ...since temptation is a sin...



I agree with you and Cusp, for the most part. I don't really agree with the temptation = sin theory though. Your moral stature is determined by your actions, not your surroundings.

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> Oneironaught is right. Also, during dreaming, we think in other ways. We're not ourselfs.




unless you're lucid

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> how do you think writers are able to describe the rape or killing they write about? they research and imagine the experience.




exactly!

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## Oneironaught

> unless you're lucid



If you believe that all lucid experience is completely controlled by the moral compass or even by the will then you haven't had much lucid experience.

But, as I mentioned earlier, I don't "recommend" doing things you're morally opposed to in LDs. However, I still don't think you're an evil killer if you beat the life out of a dream character. It's a dream, a story, a screenplay. I think most people understand the difference between harming some one or doing some one wrong and having a dream or watching a movie. The two ends of the spectrum are not the same entity.

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## Casualtie

I think its fine, as long as you know where to draw the line. It's not a sin to have fun. In real life, you would be having fun at the other person's expense, but in a dream, you aren't interacting or effecting anyone else in any way at all.

IMHO, it is completely fine and somewhat normal to want to do sinful things in a dream because you *know* you can't do them in real life. If you take care of your wants and urges to sin in a dream, it can only really help. I do think, however, that the line is drawn once you start having serious considerations and urges to commit such sins in real life. That is when you know you've got to get back into control of your thoughts.

: DD

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## NeAvO

Well, coudn't you just have lucid sex and not lucid rape?

But seriously, its hard to answer this even if you are religious because its not techniqually really happening, so how can you be judged for something you haven't done? Rhetorical question.

However Catholicism states that even impure thoughts can be a sin, so even lucid sex can be classed as a sin too.

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## Tranquil Toad

> Well, coudn't you just have lucid sex and not lucid rape?



Rape is more an act of violence than sex: people get off on the power.

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## Nefarious

I would not think this is a sin, because in a lucid dream you can control your charcter that you would for example would want to rape. Even if you cant if you are lucid and your a good person who would not want to rape anyone you would try to think that the person you are raping is ok with that. Thus this is not a sin cause you dont really wana cause harm to anyone you just want to use your chance to have fun, you know that youre not hurting anyone and you wont do it in real life.

 I think most religious people would still think its a sin. Religious people are quite simple minded, they rely too much on their belifs and would think that if its in your head it may develop to reality too. I dont think they would belive that a person who imagine himself rape someone in a lucid dream would not commit a serious sin in reality.

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## SEBSTER

:smiley: OH MAN IM DIGGIN THIS THREAD
I have asked myself this Q before because i am a Christian. well i would say that what happens in dreams are just fantasy, just like when you're really angra and are imagining yourself beating the shit out of your teacher during math class or just jerking off to your or A girl/boy. However even La Berge says that "dreams are real but only as long as they last". also in Van DeKeere"s book it says that if you think about it if you imagine a flying blue elephant its real because its a thought and thoughts are real, maybe not phisycally real but they are in existance and are manifesting in one way or another. So i guess that what happens in a dream stays in a dream. Everything that goes on in a dream just like oneironaught said IS UP TO THE DREAMER'S MATURITY AND MORALS.

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## SEBSTER

> I would not think this is a sin, because in a lucid dream you can control your charcter that you would for example would want to rape. Even if you cant if you are lucid and your a good person who would not want to rape anyone you would try to think that the person you are raping is ok with that. Thus this is not a sin cause you dont really wana cause harm to anyone you just want to use your chance to have fun, you know that youre not hurting anyone and you wont do it in real life.
> 
> I think most religious people would still think its a sin. Religious people are quite simple minded, they rely too much on their belifs and would think that if its in your head it may develop to reality too. I dont think they would belive that a person who imagine himself rape someone in a lucid dream would not commit a serious sin in reality.



Wait bro, i think you are judging religious people way too quickly. i mean im not religious but you see religious people think the way they do not because they are afraid of it's outcome but because it is a commandment of their God. Its just people following the rules they have chosen to follow.

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## luv2dream

> Rape is more an act of violence than sex: people get off on the power.



yeah but sex and rape were just examples, that's not what I was really doing or planning to do, i was just curious about the topic

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## Nefarious

> Wait bro, i think you are judging religious people way too quickly. i mean im not religious but you see religious people think the way they do not because they are afraid of it's outcome but because it is a commandment of their God. Its just people following the rules they have chosen to follow.



Religion was made to allow people belive in something they would think is right and base some kind of a system around it. I am not an Atheis I have no idea how you would call a person like me, I belive in god wich is a system that make things happen and sometimes I might even ask that system for help cause I think it would help me. But I dont like religion at all people have worked something to limit the people in certain things to mentain this belif in god, its just like I would ask for help from that "system" but they made it abit more complicated I dont like that and I dont have any religion.

I could clearly see in a few years that some religions would be totally against lucid dreaming, because like I said religion keeps developing or at least it should cause it did before. The development of humanity makes people atheists the start to belive in science and not in god, religion supose to avoid that and develop together with science.

People explain things they dont understand with either theory or religion, I would rather mix it to a point where I dont need the limits of religion and I donat take theory too seriously untill its a proven fact. However this is going off topic

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## Oneironaught

The real question is: Is it a sin to rape yourself? This is mental masturbation, nothing more.

Of course, some will have you believe that masturbation is a sin so, there's no pleasing some people.

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## Mes Tarrant

> there's no pleasing some people.



Literally! :p 

Sorry this post isn't more insightful.

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## Marvo

> unless you're lucid



I don't think you understand the nature of our brains, when we are dreaming. Even if we are lucid, we're still running 3-5Hz brainwaves, and that makes us even more stupid, than we are in the morning, when all groggy and that. This can be trained, but in the start, you will experience that you often blame yourself for being stupid and stuff, because you didn't do what you had planned.

We are stupid when we dream. Even when we're lucid.

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## NatureBoy93

Forgive em if Im wrong (Im not a christian), but dont they say a sin happens twice? Once thinking, and once doing.

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## SEBSTER

> Forgive em if Im wrong (Im not a christian), but dont they say a sin happens twice? Once thinking, and once doing.



holy shit he's right! but in a dream wouldnt it be just thinking?

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## SEBSTER

> I don't think you understand the nature of our brains, when we are dreaming. Even if we are lucid, we're still running 3-5Hz brainwaves, and that makes us even more stupid, than we are in the morning, when all groggy and that. This can be trained, but in the start, you will experience that you often blame yourself for being stupid and stuff, because you didn't do what you had planned.
> 
> We are stupid when we dream. Even when we're lucid.



DAMN either u know or read to much! haha but its a good thing either way :smiley:

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## viking-45

first of all-- i am religious.

you have to know that the church and material things "from gods property"
are just and instrument used in ancient times to control the people with fear....
sins are established by church, some of them are ridiculous and some are basic and important 

ridiculous(examples): 
-masturbating (dude!!! self satisfaction, whats wrong with that?)
-no eating meat on saturdays and that stuff.

basic and important(examples):
-dont kill
-dont harm anybody without reason (reason=self defense)


...
I mean , dont let church take out your peacefull satisfation.
this is my point of view
..
I believe in god but not in the instruments taken by humans to control people saying that it is on gods will.

And i say believe what you want and be comfortablw with it!

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## Amethyst Star

Oneironaught, you bring up a good point about separating fantasy from reality, but with this subject, you also have to decide how you define dreams.  I think that while dreams aren't the same as real life (obviously), they can reveal to us things in our lives which we may not be consciously or continuously aware of.  They can sometimes cause us to take a closer look at ourselves when we wake up, so I don't classify dreams as entirely "fantasy."





> Everyone, no matter who they are, has imagined killing someone or committing some horrible crime. Therefore, when one dreams such, it is the equivalent of one imagining it just more realistic.



As I did in my last post, I bring up the element of choice.  Sure, everyone has had random fleeting thoughts that may violate what they believe is right, but once one realizes that he/she is thinking those thoughts, it's up to them to continue along that train of thought or to push those thoughts aside.  Sure, they may just be in your head, but regardless, they do affect how you interact with those around you.  If you randomly dream about sleeping with a man/woman who you know and you remember it, the next time you see them it's highly likely that that dream will pop up in your memory.  You don't have to tell them about it, but it does affect how you act.

Even though a dream is just in your head, when you're lucid and choose to dream about something that you know is wrong, it's just like continuing along that train of thought that you know you shouldn't take.  There's nothing wrong with a random battle, in my opinion, but if you're shooting someone you know who you don't like, then there's a clear line that's been crossed.

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## Harrycombs

Im not religous, but if you are think of it this way,perhaps the real world is God's world, where you have to follow his rules, but your mind is your own world. No one can ever take your imagination from you, and it can never hurt any one, so why would God care?

Also, I think most relgion were made up to control people (scientology is a great example). Christianity was made for good reason, but over time it was used for evil. I don't think the church could have gotten further from Jesus' teachings. Also, the Bible never mentions hell once. Hell is a mistranslation of the word sheol or something, and is supposed to mean "grave", so you don't have to worry about that if you are christian.

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## Oneironaught

> They can sometimes cause us to take a closer look at ourselves when we wake up, so I don't classify dreams as entirely "fantasy."



Oh, I agree. But that's just it: dreams are more likely to reflect the real world in a fantasy setting than to impose fantasy onto the real-world experience.

So, dreaming about bad things isn't nearly as likely to make you do those bad things in real life. Conversely, real-life thoughts can and do seep into our dreams in various forms.





> Also, the Bible never mentions hell once. Hell is a mistranslation of the word sheol or something, and is supposed to mean "grave", so you don't have to worry about that if you are christian.



Quoted for truth.

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## The Cusp

> ...everyone has had random fleeting thoughts that may violate what they believe is right, but once one realizes that he/she is thinking those thoughts, it's up to them to continue along that train of thought or to push those thoughts aside.  Sure, they may just be in your head, but regardless, they do affect how you interact with those around you.



Well put.  This is turning out to be an interesting thread.

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## luv2dream

> The real question is: Is it a sin to rape yourself? This is mental masturbation, nothing more.



but comitting suicide is considered a sin in my religion, so killing yourself would still be bad, but then again if I killed someone in my dream I wouldn't really kill myself

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## dsr

luv2dream, what constitutes a sin depends on two things: how you define "sin" and what your religious beliefs are. If by "sin" you mean "a bad deed" or "an act that harms others," then committing in an LD what would be a sin IRL is not a sin because you are not harming anyone. However, if you define "sin" strictly in a religious context, which it seems you do, then it would depend upon your beliefs.

I am an atheist, so I am certainly not the best person to help you with specific biblical citations (other posters like Silvanus350 will be of much more help in this regard), but I can tell you how I personally feel about this matter. I believe that if a supreme being does exist (let's say the God in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), he/she/it would care not about your thoughts but rather your actions. If this supreme being gives us freedom of thought, shouldn't we be permitted to think whatever we want as long as we are kind to our fellow human beings (and planet)?

Oh, Calvinists will disagree with me on this because they believe that humans don't have free will. But in that case, you might as well do whatever you want in your LDs because if you are physically able to, that must mean that God predestined you to do so and that you had no choice in the matter! :p

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## luv2dream

Nefarious, may I refer you to my earlier statement





> if you're not religious at all, it's fine if you comment on something, but please no "religion sucks" comments, honestly, from experience, those conversations are a waste of time.



that also includes no "religious people suck" comments

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## luv2dream

> I am an atheist, so I am certainly not the best person to help you with specific biblical citations



It's ok, i'm not asking for opinions based on religion or anything, the only reason I brought up religion was because i used the word "sin" other than that, all I wanted was peoples' opinions, so I dont mind if you or anyone else who aren't religious comment

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## Amethyst Star

> Oh, I agree. But that's just it: dreams are more likely to reflect the real world in a fantasy setting than to impose fantasy onto the real-world experience.
> 
> So, dreaming about bad things isn't nearly as likely to make you do those bad things in real life. Conversely, real-life thoughts can and do seep into our dreams in various forms.



For the most part I agree.  On the topic of dreams affecting one's reality, I was just trying to point out that they can affect us more than we think.  It depends on the person, obviously, but one should be cautious to disregard their thoughts or dreams as purely fantasy.

As just a personal example, I've forbidden myself from listening to Evanesence.  There were certain songs I was listening to when I was in a foul mood and it only made it worse, but I didn't stop so I became more depressed.  So I broke the CD (a burned one).  The same thing can happen when I get angry.  It was even worse when I was going through my moral crisis... but that time's passed... and it was a doozy!

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## SEBSTER

My personal opinion would be that it could come down to the religion or personal beliefs. for example christians have more crazy ass rules than blockbuster and for example if you're christian you can't masturbate but everyone does it anyways and when you ask a pastor or priest if its a sin they say its cool (well at least some). i don't know about other cultures but maybe it could alsp depend on what your beliefs are. i think that it comes down to what your personal values and morals are and what you consider to be good or bad. just like if a 9 yr or pushes an old lady into a highway from a helicopter in a dream it might seem funny and amusing to him but when he matures he will see that that is a cruel and immoral act.

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> for example christians have more crazy ass rules than blockbuster and for example if you're christian you can't masturbate



Christians cant masturbate? then how come catholics and mormons have such big families?

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## hbash089

to religious people, EVERYTHING is a sin.

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## Marvo

Christians can masturbate. It is said somewhere, that we shall not waste our semen, but it is proven, that we have, in theory, infinite semen. We can't just run out of it for good because of masturbating.

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## dsr

Religious Jews and Catholics supposedly don't masturbate because it has to do with not wasting "seed." For the same reason, some members of the aforementioned groups won't use condoms. This for example came up in a Google search: http://www.truekabbalah.org/pages/documents/k00029.htm. However, the kabbalah doesn't always represent the views of the mainstream Jewish communities and certainly not that of Catholics.

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## JFK

> Christians cant masturbate? then how come catholics and mormons have such big families?



you are joking right?

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## Jimbo9889

No... I am a christian and I am reading the bible. I come to the conclusion that dreams are not your "physical body" and you are judged by the things you do to other people in REAL WAKING LIFE... I have killed people in my dreams so I dont suffer from guilt because, I know I wont do it in real life... 

Than again it does say in Mark 12:30 "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." Now loving God would be obeying him and you wouldnt rape someone... However, like I said your not really raping someone except yourself because, who you rape in your dream is in your mind.

Just no the difference between right and wrong in waking life and try not to do anything sinful in waking life and you should be fine in my belief... Now if your raping someone you know in waking life yea thats sinful because, you lust with that person and you committed adultery... Fetishes and Fantasy's of people you know or know off is a NO but if it is your own creativity than I dont see a problem...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Masterbation is an immoral act because, if you think of it your loving yourself in a shameful way. It can be both lust of yourself and sloth. Think about it your to bored and need to relieve that boredom so you "unzip and double click."

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## lagunagirl

> to religious people, EVERYTHING is a sin.



that's painting with a pretty broad brush, wouldn't you say?

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> you are joking right?



yes, that would be sarcasm, next time I'll put a  ::rolleyes::  so people know. I was just saying that to prove that they CAN masturbate

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## Lonewolf

Yes I believe you would be accountable for what you choose to do in a lucid dream. The bible condemns anyone "loving violence" and if you are fantasizing about it or killing people in a lucid dream than you sinning according to the bible. 

Take note of what Jesus said:
Matthew 5:28- "But I say to you that everyone that keeps  on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Mark 7:21:  "for from *inside*, out of the heart of men, injurious reasonings issue forth: fornications, theiveries, murders, adulteries, covetings, acts of wickedness, deceit, loose conduct, an envious eye. blashpemy, haughtiness, unreasonableness. All these things issue forth from *within* and defile a man

Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. WHo can know it?

----------


## Bonsay

Why don't you ask Jesus not to consider your LDs sinful. Remember, whatever you ask for, he will deliver. Problem solved?

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## dsr

Lonewolf, killing someone in an LD doesn't mean you love violence. Does playing Grand Theft Auto (or any video game rated T or M, for that matter) doom you to hell?

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## MoD

Well, dont rely on the Bible for answers. Its unclear and symbolic. It teaches you to love your neighbour but also tells you to kill homosexuals (very popular among fondumentalists). Thats if your a Christian.

Secondly, the game argument is the best one in this thread. And no, a video game is not diffrent than LDs ( other than compared to LDs it has VERY bad graphics,sound and it limits you to specific actions ). And you dont feel bad about it when you kill someone in a video game... Why not? Because no one got hurt and you didnt really do it. 

In a LD, it is simmilar, well ok, I wouldnt play a video game which involves raping... But heck, even that is a videogame. So in a LD its the same. You didnt hurt no one and thats the point.

Now there is the question of you feeling bad about your actions in LDs. Well, thats got absolutely nothing to do with sin, but with you feeling bad about yourself... 

Besides, whats with all the sin. God is all forgiving, he doesent punish us... Oh, that depens on which part of the Bible you read... Oh well  :tongue2:

----------


## SEBSTER

well MoD has a point in the fact that its up to us to feel good or bad about certain actions we do in dreams. i mean who twisted your arm and told you to rape your neighbor's busty daughter in your dream? no one beat you into pushing that little deffenseless boy into a giant shredder. the way we feel and the way we judge ourselves is up to us. 
Oh and how come were only talking about Christianity? what about Buddists or Muslims or Jews or any other religion?? how do they feel about dream actions such as sex and murder?

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## Xaqaria

If you believe that it is sinful to entertain the thought, also known as wanting to sin then yes it would be.

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## The Cusp

The video game analogy comes down to why you're doing it.  And at heart, all video games are some form of problem solving.  

The violence in my dreams stems from the joy of movement and the thrill of a good challenge.  Most of the time, my opponents and I hold back our blows before we connect, so we can keep fighting longer.  

Doing it out of hatred is an entirely different matter.

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## Xaqaria

> Well, dont rely on the Bible for answers. Its unclear and symbolic. It teaches you to love your neighbour but also tells you to kill homosexuals (very popular among fondumentalists). Thats if your a Christian.



With enough patience and concentration, we could all be fondu-mentalists.

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## Jimbo9889

We could go in a completely different argument about Christianity and what not... The basic message is there "to love" not "to rape" because, than it turns into a lustful act and the whole of humanity can agree it is wrong...

Also it is mentioned in the Bible that God's Spirit(Holy Spirit) dwells within you 24/7 so to do such an act in a LD would be wrong b/c you have control over it. 

So my suggestion to remedy that problem would be instead of lust to dream about Unconditional Love and from that Love a state of Bliss and making LUST feel WEAKER than Love and that being incorporated into your own being. From writing this I came to a conclusion from the Religious Point of View on Lucid Dreaming:

"Lucid dreaming is power given to you by God in order to strengthen your mind and heart. From seeing your greatest fear and weakness suddenly being turned into your greatest strength and valor. It is a time when God talks to you and gives you answers to questons. A dream is like a friend who speaks different language. Once you understand the dream that friend is more valuable. So a dream in it's self is a lesson in understanding." 

Theres a verse in the bible that mentions strengths n' weaknesses... 1 Corinthians 1:27 "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong."

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## Oneironaught

> "Lucid dreaming is power given to you by God in order to strengthen your mind and heart. From seeing your greatest fear and weakness suddenly being turned into your greatest strength and valor. It is a time when God talks to you and gives you answers to questons. A dream is like a friend who speaks different language. Once you understand the dream that friend is more valuable. So a dream in it's self is a lesson in understanding."



I'm not into any sort of formal religion but, I've got to hand it to you: I kind of like that. Yeah, I do.

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## FluBB

are we honestly having this conversation again? people need to search for topics that they are about to start because chances are that someone has brought it up before. sorry... just some rambling.

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## naikou

Nobody tell any major religions about Lucid Dreaming, and we won't have any problems, will we?  :smiley: 

Seriously though, I don't foresee this ever becoming a problem. Suppose you did break a rule of your religion in a dream. What are you going to do? That's going to be a lovely confession: "Uhm, I'd like a penance because I killed someone in a dream."

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## dsr

Acting violently in an imaginary world, whether a lucid dream or a video game, does not mean that you love or endorse violence. All you're doing is placing yourself into an imaginary violent scene as a mental exercise or recreational activity. As I stated in my first post, judge yourself by your actions and not your thoughts -- your thoughts only matter if they influence your actions, and they won't if your violent thoughts only exist in the context of the imaginary world. If you believe that God gives you freedom of thought but won't tolerate violent thoughts, yet he instructs you to slaughter homosexuals, then please change your beliefs.

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## lagunagirl

> Lonewolf, killing someone in an LD doesn't mean you love violence. Does playing Grand Theft Auto (or any video game rated T or M, for that matter) doom you to hell?



it might not necessarily doom you to hell, but some christians dont let their kids play that because they would consider it a sin... or maybe just because they dont think it's good for their minds, i dont know

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> It teaches you to love your neighbour but also tells you to kill homosexuals



I've never read in the bible or heard about any teachings in the bible that say "kill homosexuals"

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## Jeremysr

> I've never read in the bible or heard about any teachings in the bible that say "kill homosexuals"



It was part of the Law in the Old Testament I think. If you were caught doing a homosexual act the Law said you would have to be put to death. Somehow people want to believe the Bible is "wrong" and "evil" so they take that and say that the Bible says "kill homosexuals". But actually it doesn't say anything about "homosexuals", because no one was really homosexual. It wasn't something you were, just something you did. And if you did do it, you were to be put to death. Also, the law doesn't apply today, because it was a law for Moses or whoever to follow for his people. But it is still a sin.

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## Marvo

So I'm a sinning by being a bisexual?

Damn, that sucks  :Sad:

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## Adrenaline Junkie

Don't really get into religion to much myself but its hardly a sin if your acting it out in your mind, its only what you call "a sin" if you were to do it in real life. I don't believe theres such thing as sin. 

Lol at Marvo, seriously dude, you ever considered stand up?

----------


## Marvo

What do you mean?

----------


## Adrenaline Junkie

I was assuming it was a witty reply, i am right in thinking they are intentional, if not then i am incredibly sorry.  :Sad:

----------


## dsr

> But actually it doesn't say anything about "homosexuals", because no one *was* really homosexual. It *wasn't* something you *were*, just something you *did*.



Then when did homosexuality come into existence? (And please don't say that it doesn't exist in the present but is rather a choice certain people make to be different. If that's you're argument, let me inform you that individuals of many other animal species exhibit homosexuality.

----------


## Marvo

> I was assuming it was a witty reply, i am right in thinking they are intentional, if not then i am incredibly sorry.



Well, I *am* a bisexual, but the sin thing was just a joke :p

----------


## Adrenaline Junkie

Good, the sin part is what i meant.

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## SEBSTER

I read that there are african cultures that practice LDs just like buddists and that both dreams and LDs that envolve violence are taken into deep consideration and if it envolves violence to someone in their clan or village they are told to ask for forgiveness. thats crazy why cant western cultures appreciate dreams like that?

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## The Cusp

> I read that there are african cultures that practice LDs just like buddists and that both dreams and LDs that envolve violence are taken into deep consideration and if it envolves violence to someone in their clan or village they are told to ask for forgiveness.



Wow, I owe a lot of apologies.  Actually trying to do that would turn out like that show "My Name is Earl".

----------


## SEBSTER

haha yeah me too.

----------


## Jimbo9889

> If you believe that God gives you freedom of thought but won't tolerate violent thoughts, yet he instructs you to slaughter homosexuals, then please change your beliefs.- From _dsr_



To sidenote: Homosexuality is condemned yes but when the say kill a homosexual they do not mean the person they mean the sin. Kill a Liar means Kill Your Need To Lie. Kill a Homo means Kill your Homosexual Tendencies. Theres a saying in Christianity "Love the sinner, Not the Sin"

But you should work on improving your mind and body. I am not a perfectionist but I am humble and you should humble yourself to the power of your own mind. To be honest its between you and god if doing a lustful act is really a sin in your dreams. I guess I am pulling my own beliefs into it to Philosophize: "If I said it was wrong b/c religion said so an athiest might say to be unbaised and he will bring in his views and say its up to you. So I cant say do it but I cant say dont do it..." So dont bother thinking about it and move on. 

OR

"They say when faced with temptation to chose the lesser of two evils. So instead of raping why not just take advantage of a passive and naive person that person would be the person you wanted to rape." I mean thats if the temptation is strong enough to make you do that.

----------


## dsr

> To sidenote: Homosexuality is condemned yes but when the say kill a homosexual they do not mean the person they mean the sin. Kill a Liar means Kill Your Need To Lie. Kill a Homo means Kill your Homosexual Tendencies.



I'm not so sure you're right:

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be _put to death_; their blood shall be upon them."
--Leviticus 20:13

I think that "put to death" is a bit different from "get rid of the homosexual tendencies that a homosexual might naturally have." But that's just me. :p

----------


## -Almost

I think this question all makes no sense.
Becuase it is all personal opinion to decide if something is a sin to you.


Its up to you to decide whether what your doing is right or wrong and justified or not.
If you think its only a dream and its okay, then go for it.
If you think its wrong to do it in a dream, don't do it.

I myself have no problem in doing something bad while lucid dreaming.
My philosophy, LD's are for your enjoyment, its not like the 'Dream Police' are going to lock you up.
So what the hell do you have to loose?
Its not real life, so you haven't hurt any real people.
And if no one is hurt, then its okay for me.

----------


## Tempo

Like Psylis said, if you kill people in a video game it's not considered a sin (or atleast many would not considere it to be). And I'm pretty much just repeating what others have said-
If you feel bad doing it in a dream, then in my opinion- don't do it. Even when I'm not in control of my dreams and my dream self does something bad to a person (depending on the person  ::lipssealed:: ), I'll a bit feel bad upon waking up. Dreams gives up deeper emotions because they are "real" when we experience them. Video games are not real and would normaly not gives us the same feelings.

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## Amethyst Star

On the note of video games, if you read my last post, it all goes back to one's thoughts.  I enjoy violent video games from time to time (though not overly gory), but it's not something that I dwell on.  I've watched TV shows enough to have them constantly on my mind and that's what I consider a danger.  If you play video games too much, they can take the place of things that are really important.  Consider this:

"Close your eyes.  What do you see?  That is where you are."

I watched a show to such an extent that unless I consciously decided to think of something else, those characters would just pop right into my head.  I'd close my eyes and images would be right there.  Therein lay the problem.  You devote yourself to something and it begins to control you.  Does this apply to everyone or everything?  No, but it's something that does happen.

Ultimately I stand by my decision: if you have a choice, you choose to sin or not to sin.

----------


## luv2dream

> So I'm a sinning by being a bisexual?



some religions would believe that, yes, but others probably would be fine with it

----------


## Jeremysr

> So I'm a sinning by being a bisexual?
> 
> Damn, that sucks



I don't think you are sinning by *being* bisexual, but when you *do* something wrong, bisexually, you are sinning and that's wrong. The reason is, God didn't design us to be bisexual and we are going against God by doing things he didn't design us to do.

----------


## Oneironaught

> If you feel bad doing it in a dream, then in my opinion- don't do it. Even when I'm not in control of my dreams and my dream self does something bad to a person (depending on the person ), I'll a bit feel bad upon waking up. Dreams gives up deeper emotions because they are "real" when we experience them. Video games are not real and would normaly not gives us the same feelings.



I agree with every word of that. Personally, I don't do things in dreams (purposely) that I'm morally opposed to. And when things I feel strongly against happen unintentionally in a dream, it does affect me somewhat. Just as positive dreams have positive effects.

But, to say that dream activities can be considered "sins", as some people are saying, well, I just don't buy it.

----------


## RedfishBluefish

> I don't think you are sinning by *being* bisexual, but when you *do* something wrong, bisexually, you are sinning and that's wrong. The reason is, God didn't design us to be bisexual and we are going against God by doing things he didn't design us to do.



I think if *I* were God I would _leap_ at the chance to see my creations doing new and interesting things, not just the same old stuff all the time. In addition *what right* has anyone to care about what two people do together in private, and call it a 'sin'?! Do bisexuals _deserve_ an eternity of torture? Hell no! (no pun intended :wink2: )
Call me communist if you will, but there it is.

EDIT:
Bisexual - read "person who does bad things in lucid dreams (etc.)"
It basically works out as the same argument.
So, no it's not a sin.

----------


## dsr

> I don't think you are sinning by *being* bisexual, but when you *do* something wrong, bisexually, you are sinning and that's wrong. The reason is, God didn't design us to be bisexual and we are going against God by doing things he didn't design us to do.



Read my previous post.

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## Jeremysr

> I think if *I* were God I would _leap_ at the chance to see my creations doing new and interesting things, not just the same old stuff all the time. In addition *what right* has anyone to care about what two people do together in private, and call it a 'sin'?! Do bisexuals _deserve_ an eternity of torture? Hell no! (no pun intended)
> Call me communist if you will, but there it is.
> 
> EDIT:
> Bisexual - read "person who does bad things in lucid dreams (etc.)"
> It basically works out as the same argument.
> So, no it's not a sin.



Of course you would do that if you were God, but God isn't like you. He does things differently. He's completely different in the way he thinks.





> Then when did homosexuality come into existence? (And please don't say that it doesn't exist in the present but is rather a choice certain people make to be different. If that's you're argument, let me inform you that individuals of many other animal species exhibit homosexuality.



I don't know what you mean, homosexuality doesn't "exist", it's just something you are or do. (I don't mean _you_...)

----------


## dsr

Oh, I thought you were saying that there is no such thing as a "heterosexual" or "homosexual" but that it's a person's choice to partake in gay acts. I gave the link because the fact that homosexual individuals are present in other species of mammals just like in Homo sapiens suggests that homosexuality is at least partly genetic and proves that it is not some kind of unusual behavior that people exhibit deliberately to be different or whatever. Since this appears not to have been your argument, this whole discussion is irrelevant. Besides, this thread is about whether committing a sin in an LD is a sin IRL, so let's get back on topic. Sorry for going off on a tangent; I just agreed with MoD that the Bible seems to contradict some incredibly strict interpretations of itself such as the idea that while God gives you freedom of thought, you will go to hell for thinking violent thoughts. Nevertheless, God says in Leviticus 20:13 that people who exhibit homosexual behavior should be put to death.

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## Jimbo9889

I really look at the new testament dictionary defines Testament as a like a contract. Gods Contract With Humanity. Now alot of Christinaity as a whole is based off of St. Paul not Jesus. Jesus said to love one another Paul says wha does righteousness have with unrighteousness? Paul had alot of pride and he always hated someone. First he hated Christians than he became one and spread a different message than what Christ taught for example:

Sex POV(Point of View) of Paul(1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
*CONTRADICTION*
POV of Christ(Matthew 21:32 ): "Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him."



Woman POV of Paul(1 Corinthians 14:34-35 ): "women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."
*CONTRADICTION*
POV of Christ: "Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman. But no one asked, "What do you want?" or "Why are you talking with her?""
*CONTRADICTION*
Slavery POV of Paul(Ephesians 6:5): "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."
POV of Christ(Matthew 23:8): "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers."

So you see Christainity is founded almost entirely by Paul it seems like. Along with the stereotypes people assume to be comprised of someone devoted to  GOD and Jesus Christ. Jesus asked for LOVE. Love others as you would yourself, Love God and Have Unconditional Love. Humanity would drop the hate if we accepted one another for who we are. Jesus went against Social norms. If there is a law that does interfere with Love than it should be taken down.

Paul said to accept those who rule over you Good or Bad. Jesus said to love the lord your God. Accept God's will NOT The Governments will if it goes against God's Will.

Like I said I take mainly from New Testament to prove my points there are a few from Old Testaments by I only take Words of Wisdom like Proverbs, Jobs and Eccelanties(Spelling). Mainly from Christ. Thats why I say I am a true christian not catholic, lutheran or any other denomination of the church. I follow Christ words. Common sense If The Pope told You To Do "A" and God Told You To Do "B." Which would you do? *Times Up* Go with "B!"

----------


## Marvo

> I don't think you are sinning by *being* bisexual, but when you *do* something wrong, bisexually, you are sinning and that's wrong. The reason is, God didn't design us to be bisexual and we are going against God by doing things he didn't design us to do.



But doing something bisexually could just be normal hetero stuff. That makes you all sinners!

----------


## Amethyst Star

Perhaps this should be moved to the Religious Discussion forum...

----------


## dsr

No. The Extended Discussion forum is not for questions regarding lucid dreaming. We just need to get back on topic (that seems to be mostly my fault).

----------


## Aphius

She's not talking about it's relevance to Lucid Dreaming, she's referring to the amount of religious talk within this thread. 

In regard to lucid dreaming or not, things regarding religion are kept in the religion section usually for good reason. 
Anyway, "_would it be a sin?_" how much more of a religious thread is there? We've kind of figured out that it's subjective. Each person thinks something different, and you're not going to get a definitive answer to such a question.

Personally I think this does need moving.

----------


## Vetuxo

Though, based on Christianity, if you're married and intentionally (lucid) dreamed of having sex with another woman, I believe that the religion states that even the thought of it is adultery.

----------


## lindsey609

> I'm not a christian, but from what i read there i wouldn't agree with you. You said "that God examines your heart and mind," so he sees your inner motives and morals regardless of any action you perform. This would lead me to believe that, since in lucid dreams you are essentially only interacting with your subconscious, no one is harmed. And furthermore, you are fully aware that no one is coming to harm (or the woman you are lusting over is actually just part of yourself, the ultimate form of masturbation ), *god knows that you do not have ill intentions*. As someone mentioned before, its essentially the same as killing a person in a video game. Does god look down at me for running all those people over in GTA?



I _totally_ agree with this statement. No one's hurting anyone in a dream, and really, all a dream is is your subconscious. It's common sense!





> Some of this is true, but have you ever heard of the reason people have locks on their doors. "It's not to keep bad people out, but it is to keep the good people out," basically, laws are like locks, they can't truly stop people, but they remove temptation from the good people. 
>   I'm sure that although there would be more crime and murder, many of the extra people doing so would really not be evil but tempted. Not to say that they would not be sinning, since temptation is a sin, but they would not be evil people. 
>   Also, if there were no laws in the first place, then that means that people wouldn't be doing something wrong; their perspectives would be different from ours. To us, killing is evil, meanwhile to lawless community, it is just natural impulse.
>   There is no law in the dream world and no locks to hold you back, so if you just acted impulsively eventually you will get the impulse to kill someone (It happens all the time very naturally) and you would.  It works the same with rape and other crimes.  This is just what I believe, and if you don't agree, fine.



Interesting quote; I'm liking all the insight on this topic. I thought I'd seen the most looked at topic when I saw the whole "felt-like-the-dream-was-a-month" topic, but I was SO wrong lol! Sorry to bring it up don't wanna change the subject.




> Wait bro, i think you are judging religious people way too quickly. i mean im not religious but you see religious people think the way they do not because they are afraid of it's outcome but because it is a commandment of their God. Its just people following the rules they have chosen to follow.



 I sort of agree w/this. Not only do Christians obey God to follow the rules they've "chosen to follow", but it makes them feel good about themselves, and there's a sort of freedom associated with Christianity. I really don't want to get into all of it, but when you sin, you feel guilt, that's universal. In Christianity, God frees you from all that, and if anyone's not a Christian, then whatever, but there's definately a sense of freedom when you're a Christian. There's more than following rules that they've chosen to follow just for the heck of it. AND they don't want to go to hell when they die.





> *Religion was made to allow people belive in something they would think is right and base some kind of a system around it.* I am not an Atheis I have no idea how you would call a person like me, I belive in god wich is a system that make things happen and sometimes I might even ask that system for help cause I think it would help me. But I dont like religion at all people have worked something to *limit the people in certain things to mentain this belif in god*, its just like I would ask for help from that "system" but they made it abit more complicated I dont like that and I dont have any religion.
> 
> I could clearly see in a few years that some religions would be totally against lucid dreaming, because like I said religion *keeps developing* or at least it should cause it did before. The development of humanity makes people atheists the start to belive in science and not in god, religion supose to avoid that and develop together with science.
> 
> People explain things they dont understand with either theory or religion, I would rather mix it to a point where I dont need the limits of religion and I donat take theory too seriously untill its a proven fact. However this is going off topic



 Well. Alot of stuff to work through on this quote. Religion was *not made to allow people to believe in something they think is right!!!!*  That's ludicrous!! That is a totally twisted view on what religion is!!! Religion is all about believing in what you can't see, and a sense of freedom that comes along with it! It's (normally) a guarantee of what happens to you when you die, NOT a system of what's right and wrong!





> to religious people, EVERYTHING is a sin.



 TOTALLY not true. I _really_ hope you're being sarcastic.





> Well, *dont rely on the Bible for answers*. Its unclear and *symbolic*. It teaches you to love your neighbour but also tells you to kill homosexuals (very popular among fondumentalists). Thats if your a Christian.
> 
> Secondly, the game argument is the best one in this thread. And no, a video game is not diffrent than LDs ( other than compared to LDs it has VERY bad graphics,sound and it limits you to specific actions ). And you dont feel bad about it when you kill someone in a video game... Why not? Because no one got hurt and you didnt really do it. 
> 
> In a LD, it is simmilar, well ok, I wouldnt play a video game which involves raping... But heck, even that is a videogame. So in a LD its the same. You didnt hurt no one and thats the point.
> 
> Now there is the question of you feeling bad about your actions in LDs. Well, thats got absolutely nothing to do with sin, but with you feeling bad about yourself... 
> 
> Besides, whats with all the sin. God is all forgiving, he doesent punish us... Oh, that depens on which part of the Bible you read... Oh well



 yes, you definately should rely on the Bible for answers. Yes, it's confusing, but you work through it and then you take out what is morally right and what God says. It's symbolic, but you _interpret_ what the symbolism means.





> It was part of the Law in the Old Testament I think. If you were caught doing a homosexual act the Law said you would have to be put to death. Somehow people want to believe the Bible is "wrong" and "evil" so they take that and say that the Bible says "kill homosexuals". But actually it doesn't say anything about "homosexuals", because no one was really homosexual. It wasn't something you were, just something you did. And if you did do it, you were to be put to death. Also, the law doesn't apply today, because it was a law for Moses or whoever to follow for his people. But it is still a sin.



 I disagree with this. In the Bible somewhere, I know it says this, it would say "kill the sinful nature" if that's what the Bible meant. if the Bible says to kill homosexuals, then that means kill homosexuals. Frankly, I don't trust the Old Testament, I just trust what Jesus said in the new Testament. Jesus came and made "the old the new" or something like that, and we should trust his words instead of the Old Testaments.





> To sidenote: Homosexuality is condemned yes but when the say kill a homosexual they do not mean the person they mean the sin. Kill a Liar means Kill Your Need To Lie. Kill a Homo means Kill your Homosexual Tendencies. Theres a saying in Christianity "Love the sinner, Not the Sin"
> 
> But you should work on improving your mind and body. I am not a perfectionist but I am humble and you should humble yourself to the power of your own mind. To be honest its between you and god if doing a lustful act is really a sin in your dreams. I guess I am pulling my own beliefs into it to Philosophize: "If I said it was wrong b/c religion said so an athiest might say to be unbaised and he will bring in his views and say its up to you. So I cant say do it but I cant say dont do it..." So dont bother thinking about it and move on. 
> 
> OR
> 
> "They say when faced with temptation to chose the lesser of two evils. So instead of raping why not just take advantage of a passive and naive person that person would be the person you wanted to rape." I mean thats if the temptation is strong enough to make you do that.



Wierd.





> I think if *I* were God I would _leap_ at the chance to see my creations doing new and interesting things, not just the same old stuff all the time. In addition *what right* has anyone to care about what two people do together in private, and call it a 'sin'?! Do bisexuals _deserve_ an eternity of torture? Hell no! (no pun intended)
> Call me communist if you will, but there it is.
> 
> EDIT:
> Bisexual - read "person who does bad things in lucid dreams (etc.)"
> It basically works out as the same argument.
> So, no it's not a sin.



Very . . . strange quote here. 
FIRST: YOU'RE NOT GOD!!! Deal with it! If God wanted His creation to do new and interesting things, he'd do it, without a thought because HE'S GOD!!! If he wanted his creation to do different stuff, He'd make them that way, able to change whenever they wanted.

Wow, alot of text, but well, there it is.

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## Jimbo9889

Basically, follow what Jesus taught and not these dogmatics from Paul. If christ was here and told you a message that went against of what Paul said would you not listen to Jesus? So raping I would still say no and focus on the love not the lust of anything.

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## Marvo

> To sidenote: Homosexuality is condemned yes but when the say kill a homosexual they do not mean the person they mean the sin. Kill a Liar means Kill Your Need To Lie. Kill a Homo means Kill your Homosexual Tendencies. Theres a saying in Christianity "Love the sinner, Not the Sin"



It is proven, that you can't kill your homosexual tendencies. Sure, you can suppress them all you want. That's what I thought a bit about doing, just staying hetero, despite my bisexuality, but I quickly realized, that such a thing is impossible. It will always be there.

And, since I really don't want a sucky life, where I'm unsecure about my sexuality, I'm just gonna accept it, embrace it, and enjoy it.

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## Lonewolf

> Lonewolf, killing someone in an LD doesn't mean you love violence. Does playing Grand Theft Auto (or any video game rated T or M, for that matter) doom you to hell?



First of all, I don't believe in hell. The teaching of a literal hellfire where people burn eternally is unscriptural actualy. (Hell in the bible is actualy reffered to as the grave). So know playing Grand Theft Auto doesnt doom you to hell, but it does mean you enjoy violence. I have even read in magazines of kids who were influenced by playing games and wanted to act it out and even kill someone. Of course that is extreme but it can still bring on a hostile attitude and that can get you to be more aggressive and agression branches off to different things, more easier to sin.

If you SEEK out in a dream to kill someone it means you want to experience the thrill, especially if you repeatedly do it, it could mean you love violence. I am talking about a FULLY lucid dream, not in just regular semi or pre lucid dreams where you still don't have total control.

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## Lonewolf

> Well, dont rely on the Bible for answers. Its unclear and symbolic. It teaches you to love your neighbour but also tells you to kill homosexuals (very popular among fondumentalists). Thats if your a Christian.



If you look at the context and cross-reference you can tell which parts of the bible is symbolic. I can show you an example if you want. Also, where in the bible does it say to kill homosexuals? Please quote it.




> Now there is the question of you feeling bad about your actions in LDs. Well, thats got absolutely nothing to do with sin, but with you feeling bad about yourself... 
> Besides, whats with all the sin. God is all forgiving, he doesent punish us... Oh, that depens on which part of the Bible you read... Oh well



If you feel bad about yourself you feel guilty and that would mean something hurt your conscience--which would be your morals, 
Definition of conscience: the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives, impelling one toward right action
Also, yes God is forgiving, everyone sins and he forgives them. What he hates is people who PRACTICE sin, who actualy seek it out.

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## Lonewolf

sorry i realized i came in late

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## dsr

> First of all, I don't believe in hell. The teaching of a literal hellfire where people burn eternally is unscriptural actualy. (Hell in the bible is actualy reffered to as the grave).



While the concepts of heaven and hell are not directly taken from biblical text, I believe heaven is modeled after גן עדן (Garden of Eden where your soul goes to after your body returns to dust) from the Torah/Old Testament, and hell is like a worse version of the purgatory referenced in the Tanach. I don't know if the Old Testament in Christianity encompasses all of the Tanach or just the Torah because I believe purgatory is referenced somewhere in כתובים (eleven books of various writings, the first of which is Psalms). The modern concept of hell, though, was invented by a medieval pope to help control the people iirc.





> If you SEEK out in a dream to kill someone it means you want to experience the thrill, especially if you repeatedly do it, it could mean you love violence.



If a person is violent IRL, I could see him/her wanting to act violently in an LD, but it's not biconditional. All mammals are animals, but not all animals are mammals. If you shoot someone in an LD because you know no one suffers IRL and it's fun to act out James Bond, then how are you conditioning your mind to love violence? I don't know why, but there seems to be a thrill associated with pulling a trigger. Just look at the success of the paintball industry. You'd be enjoying the thrill of pulling a trigger, not the thrill of ending someone's life (at least if I were the one having "violent" LDs).





> If you look at the context and cross-reference you can tell which parts of the bible is symbolic. I can show you an example if you want. Also, where in the bible does it say to kill homosexuals? Please quote it.



I already quoted it.

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## Oneironaught

> ...I have even read in magazines of kids who were influenced by playing games and wanted to act it out and even kill someone.



Yeah, OK. You do realize that children also like to lie their asses off to avoid having to tell the truth, right? Kids have blamed everything from games to dares to the devil. Video games have become the cop-out of the ages. Where is personal responsibility?





> If you SEEK out in a dream to kill someone it means you want to experience the thrill, especially if you repeatedly do it, it could mean you love violence.



Agreed.





> sorry i realized i came in late



There's an edit button for a reason. That reason is so that you don't keep having three posts in a row within minutes of each other. I'm just saying.

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## luv2dream

> your thoughts only matter if they influence your actions, and they won't if your violent thoughts only exist in the context of the imaginary world. If you believe that God gives you freedom of thought but won't tolerate violent thoughts, yet he instructs you to slaughter homosexuals, then please change your beliefs.



1) some religions believe that having lustful thoughts is a sin if you dont do anything about it, even if it doesn't effect your actions
2) God doesn't instruct us to slaughter homosexuals, where did you hear that? He's only instructed us not to be homosexual, (if you believe in God that is)

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## lagunagirl

> "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be _put to death_; their blood shall be upon them."
> --Leviticus 20:13



So when people say "if you had sex in a dream, it would be like having sex with yourself, so it's not a sin" but if a man "commits adultery" with a woman, it is both their faults,(unless it's rape, then it's just the rapists fault) so that means it would be your fault anyway. It would be like... sorry if this sounds weird... having sex with your mind, but that would make your mind and your thoughts at fault.

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## lagunagirl

> *what right* has anyone to care about what two people do together in private, and call it a 'sin'?! Do bisexuals _deserve_ an eternity of torture?




answer to first question: God has that right, he's the person who commanded people NOT to do that until they're married and to only do that with the opposite gender
second question: no, being bisexual wont give you an eternity in hell, because there are ways to get to heaven even if you do sin, if that wasn't true then EVERYONE would be damned to hell because it's absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to go a lifetime without doing one wrong thing. also, one sin isn't enough to damn you to hell unless it's very serious like murder or suicide, and still even after that if you feel bad enough about it and repent there are still ways

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## luv2dream

> So you see Christainity is founded almost entirely by Paul it seems like. Along with the stereotypes people assume to be comprised of someone devoted to GOD and Jesus Christ. Jesus asked for LOVE. Love others as you would yourself, Love God and Have Unconditional Love. Humanity would drop the hate if we accepted one another for who we are. Jesus went against Social norms. If there is a law that does interfere with Love than it should be taken down.
> 
> Paul said to accept those who rule over you Good or Bad. Jesus said to love the lord your God. Accept God's will NOT The Governments will if it goes against God's Will.
> 
> Like I said I take mainly from New Testament to prove my points there are a few from Old Testaments by I only take Words of Wisdom like Proverbs, Jobs and Eccelanties(Spelling). Mainly from Christ. Thats why I say I am a true christian not catholic, lutheran or any other denomination of the church. I follow Christ words. Common sense If The Pope told You To Do "A" and God Told You To Do "B." Which would you do? *Times Up* Go with "B!"



That's a very good perspective, i agree completely :smiley:

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## Mr.caramel

I do remember reading something in the bible saying, along the lines, that if a man has a dream and does something bad in it, they must put them self outside the camp's walls and stay there for the day.
  This might not seem so bad but in those days, you would have been easily killed. I can't exactly remember what book it is in but i do remember talking about it. I remember saying its pretty unfair because you can't control a dream, which at that time i thought it was impossible. I'll have to search for it but if it says so when you don't control a dream, then controling a dream is just as bad. Jesus did say that if you think of murdering someone then you have already sinned. True its yourself but you still have the intent of doing murder in a dream and even though its okay, its still the thought what counts. Its pretty unfair as well that your going to murder your self really because its a figment of a dream you made up form yourself.

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## Jeremysr

All verses in the Bible that mention dreams:





> Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream in the night, and said to him, Truly you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken; for she is a man's wife.
> Gen 20:6 And God said to him in the dream, I see that you have done this with an upright heart, and I have kept you from sinning against me: for this reason I did not let you come near her.
> Gen 28:12 And he had a dream, and in his dream he saw steps stretching from earth to heaven, and the angels of God were going up and down on them.
> Gen 31:10 And at the time when the flock were with young, I saw in a dream that all the he-goats which were joined with the she-goats were banded and marked and coloured.
> Gen 31:11 And in my dream the angel of the Lord said to me, Jacob: and I said, Here am I.
> Gen 31:24 Then God came to Laban in a dream by night, and said to him, Take care that you say nothing good or bad to Jacob.
> Gen 37:5 Now Joseph had a dream, and he gave his brothers an account of it, which made their hate greater than ever.
> Gen 37:6 And he said to them, Let me give you the story of my dream.
> Gen 37:8 And his brothers said to him, Are you to be our king? will you have authority over us? And because of his dream and his words, their hate for him became greater than ever.
> ...

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## SEBSTER

oh my god.
i wish there was something in the bible mentioning LDs. i would feel hella motivated after haha.

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## luv2dream

> Jesus did say that if you think of murdering someone then you have already sinned.



if you're actually going to do it with intentions of doing it that it becomes a sin, but if someone's talking about it and the thought simply pops into your head, it's not a sin. just thinking about it isn't doing anything wrong if you dont plan on doing it

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## Jeremysr

If you hate them enough that you really want to kill them, that's when it becomes like murder and is a sin.

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## dsr

> If you hate them enough that you really want to kill them, that's when it becomes like murder and is a sin.



If you had a valid reason to hate someone to the point where you wished he would die (e.g. he raped and/or murdered your wife, mother, or sister), would you consider yourself a sinner? I find a lot of these religious interpretations a bit far-fetched.

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## lindsey609

> If you look at the context and cross-reference you can tell which parts of the bible is symbolic. I can show you an example if you want. Also, where in the bible does it say to kill homosexuals? Please quote it.
> 
> If you feel bad about yourself you feel guilty and that would mean something hurt your conscience--which would be your morals, 
> Definition of conscience: the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives, impelling one toward right action
> Also, yes God is forgiving, everyone sins and he forgives them. What he hates is people who PRACTICE sin, who actualy seek it out.



Really, God doesn't hate _anyone_, but just has a righteous anger towards that person who seeks out sin. People who practice sin normally don't do it on purpose. For example: porn. It's not my weakness, but some of my friends, and they don't want to practice that sin, yet they still do because they're only human. My point is: people who seek sin out, God doesn't hate; he's probably just disappointed or angry at that person.





> answer to first question: God has that right, he's the person who commanded people NOT to do that until they're married and to only do that with the opposite gender
> second question: no, being bisexual wont give you an eternity in hell, because there are ways to get to heaven even if you do sin, if that wasn't true then EVERYONE would be damned to hell because it's absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to go a lifetime without doing one wrong thing. also, one sin isn't enough to damn you to hell unless it's very serious like murder or suicide, and still even after that if you feel bad enough about it and repent there are still ways



Even if you murder, you can still be forgiven for that sin. If it's suicide, you can probably still be forgiven for that and go to heaven for that. I'm pretty sure that's right; I should check it out.

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## Jeremysr

> If you had a valid reason to hate someone to the point where you wished he would die (e.g. he raped and/or murdered your wife, mother, or sister), would you consider yourself a sinner? I find a lot of these religious interpretations a bit far-fetched.



Yes, because I'm sure that if you hate them it must be because they sinned in some way. It's all a problem of sin. We shouldn't focus so much on sin anymore though, because we've been freed from it!

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## Mr.caramel

> We shouldn't focus so much on sin anymore though, because we've been freed from it!



 
I keep having the feeling to say "right on brother/sister" When anyone says that.

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## towarmforacoat

> If you had a valid reason to hate someone to the point where you wished he would die (e.g. he raped and/or murdered your wife, mother, or sister), would you consider yourself a sinner? I find a lot of these religious interpretations a bit far-fetched.



Absolutely. While I consider myself very religious (I practice regularly and follow it constantly), much of what the  old/new testament says I don't believe is supposed to be taken literally or to the extreme. Plus, with all the years that have passed, re translating, and the gap of time between when the teachings were spoken to when they were written down, how can one trust the holy books 100%. I'm sure that the basic meaning is still there, but, especially in Catholicism where corrupt popes revised the bible,  the bible and such can't be completely accurate and therefore should not be interpreted the way some do.

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## Jeremysr

> Plus, with all the years that have passed, re translating, and the gap of time between when the teachings were spoken to when they were written down, how can one trust the holy books 100&#37;.



Because it is God's Word, and his Word never changes. The Old Testament was only translated twice by the way: Orginally Hebrew > Greek > English. The New testament, I think was originally in Greek, and translated right from Greek to English.

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## luv2dream

> She's not talking about it's relevance to Lucid Dreaming, she's referring to the amount of religious talk within this thread. 
> 
> In regard to lucid dreaming or not, things regarding religion are kept in the religion section usually for good reason. 
> Anyway, "_would it be a sin?_" how much more of a religious thread is there? We've kind of figured out that it's subjective. Each person thinks something different, and you're not going to get a definitive answer to such a question.
> 
> Personally I think this does need moving.



i didn't know there was a religion section! sorry, i guess i'm a bigger noob than i thought i was

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## lagunagirl

> Even if you murder, you can still be forgiven for that sin. If it's suicide, you can probably still be forgiven for that and go to heaven for that. I'm pretty sure that's right; I should check it out.



oh yeah, sorry i should have been more clear, that's what i meant when I said "there are still ways"

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## Bushido

> Because it is God's Word, and his Word never changes. The Old Testament was only translated twice by the way: Originally Hebrew > Greek > English. The New testament, I think was originally in Greek, and translated right from Greek to English.





You have to keep in mind that although it is the word of God it is written by the hand of man. So while the overall message is still there, there will be imperfections. The writings in the Old Testament were often written so long after the event it would be the equivalent of writing the first account of the battle of Hastings today!! 
The Bible is still very important and should be used as a guide but I do not think everything in it should be taken as literal fact.


As for committing a sin in a LD I think it comes down to respect of a fellow human being. We are told to love one another and so any act of violence, lust etc towards another human being is disrespectful and so a sin. It is not hurting anyone no, but it is disrespecting that individual, a child of God. 

Violence in a game or against random DCs cannot be seen as sinful because not only  is it not harming anyone it isn't disrespecting anyone either. 

as for being dammed to hell - I do not see hell as a "place" rather a state of being. I do not see a day of judgment from God (I cannot see God condemning or there being separation from God) rather our spirits living with that we have created e.g. negative thoughts creates negative outcomes (cause and effect, Karma....). You may then ask what is the point of forgiveness if we are not judged, I see it as removing the sin removes the negative state of being aka hell. One last point on this subject I cannot agree with the fact that we don't have to worry about sin anymore, if that were true Jesus would not have sent his disciples to teach and forgive sins. 

On the effect of violence or sex in a game or an LD;

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become." - Buddha. 

It has been proven our thoughts alone effect everything. Anger can turn body fluids acidic (this has even caused lactating woman to unknowing kill their babies). We surround ourselves with happiness we will become happy, we surround ourselves with violence we will become violent. How many times have you wanted to smash your fist through the PC screen when you keep dying in a game?

Wow my longest post yet!! sorry about that!
Bushido

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## Gwendolyn

Well, although I'm agnostic, and really don't have a religious stance, other than I'm not sure what happens in the hereafter, I don't think it is a 'sin'. But, I think you're pretty much lowering your character, if you do something you would not do in real life...I mean, either way if you feel it is wrong, why do it at all? I mean, when you can do anything, why would rape or murder feel appealing? The violence that resides at the subconscious level can be more dangerous than the violence on the forefront of your mind.

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## Oneironaught

> Really, *God doesn't hate* _anyone_, but *just has a righteous anger*...



That's classic! I don't want to kill you I'm just giving you a righteous dose of death. Not even close to the same thing at all  ::rolleyes:: 





> ...I don't think it is a 'sin'. But, I think you're pretty much lowering your character, if you do something you would not do in real life...I mean, either way if you feel it is wrong, why do it at all? I mean, when you can do anything, why would rape or murder feel appealing? The violence that resides at the subconscious level can be more dangerous than the violence on the forefront of your mind.



Well spoken, Gwendolyn.

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## luv2dream

> We shouldn't focus so much on sin anymore though, because we've been freed from it!



but it's still our responsibility to do the right thing and try not to sin, because the only way we ARE freed from it is through repentance. It's not like we can just go around doing whatever we want thinking that we wont have the sins. We would have to repent after we sin and it's not right to just go around doing bad things thinking "it's ok, i can just repent" that's a sin in itself

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## luv2dream

> I think this question all makes no sense.
> Becuase it is all personal opinion to decide if something is a sin to you.



I wanted to know what people thought about it... so yes it does make sense that I would want to know people's opinions on it, why else did I post this thread?

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## lagunagirl

> That's classic! I don't want to kill you I'm just giving you a righteous dose of death. Not even close to the same thing at all



actually what lindsay said about God having righteous anger towards people makes sense. He really doesn't hate anyone, he just has good reason to be mad at some people. He didn't hate hitler because hitler was his child, but he definately had reason to be angry with him!
"i'm just giving you a righteous dose of death" ? that didn't make sense

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> Religious people are quite simple minded



did you know Albert Einstein was religious?

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## Mes Tarrant

> did you know Albert Einstein was religious?



What religion was he and what sort of things did he practice?

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> First of all, I don't believe in hell. The teaching of a literal hellfire where people burn eternally is unscriptural actualy. (Hell in the bible is actualy reffered to as the grave)



Hell isn't a literal fire where people burn eternally. Most people dont have the right idea about heaven and hell and they think that those are the only places you can go after you die. this part, lonewolf, i'm not referring to you, but to anyone who would care to read. There are actually 4 "kingdoms of Glory" 
1: Heaven, of course, referred to as the sun (figuratively) for any righteous people that have accepted God and Jesus, People that didn't ever learn of the gospel, but God knew they would accept it if they did, children before they reach the age of 8, and mentally handicapped people. 
2: The Terrestial Kingdom, the second highest level, represents the moon (again, figuratively) for righteous and good people that did not accept the gospel
3: the Tellestial Kingdom, of course, the third highest level, represents the stars for people such as theives, drug users-dealers sometimes murderers and rapists, adulterers, etc. that felt guilt and remorse after their sins but did nothing about it. The tellesial kingdom is actually said to be so beautiful that it would be absolute paradise compared to the world we live in today
4: Hell represents outer darkness... (which is another name for it) for murderers, rapists, etc. that didn't really care that they sinned and did it consistently and ISN'T a place where people burn eternally, but is pretty much just like the world we live in today, and not much better (which would be hell enough for me, with all the crap we have going on in this world) 

even if you would fit into the tellestial kingdom "category" (hopefully there are no murderers or rapists here on this thread) you could still repent and be saved and still go to heaven during the millenium, which is a long topic that I'm not going to explain. 
Just a little insight there, wow with people like me making posts like this, this thread really SHOULD be in the religious section. that didn't have anything to do with lucid dreaming, sorry luv2dream

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> What religion was he and what sort of things did he practice?



He was jewish and practiced some of their religious traditions, but through adulthood he wasnt part of a specific religion, he just believed in God. He was against athiesm (if I spelled that right) (and being religious doesn't mean that you are part of a certain religion to the point where you can call yourself a lutheran, catholic, mormon, etc. but that you simply believe in God - not that there's anything wrong with being in a specific religion)

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## Oneironaught

> did you know Albert Einstein was religious?



And did you know that Einstein slept with - and eventually married - his cousin? So, religion isn't a free pass by any stretch of the imagination. And this is coming from a guy who has deep respect for Einstein's brain and works.

Oh, and did I mention that by doing so, Einstein ruined what he had with his REAL wife? Praise God. I'm glad religion saved yet another soul.

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> And did you know that Einstein slept with - and eventually married - his cousin? So, religion isn't a free pass by any stretch of the imagination.



Was I talking about who he slept with and married? was I saying that religion is a free pass? No. Nefarious said "religious people are simple minded" well einstein - a not so simple minded person - was religious. I said nothing whatsoever about anything else in einstein's life besides the fact that he - and other people - can be religious and NOT simple minded at the same time

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## dsr

> He was jewish and practiced some of their religious traditions, but through adulthood he wasnt part of a specific religion, he just believed in God. He was against athiesm (if I spelled that right) (and being religious doesn't mean that you are part of a certain religion to the point where you can call yourself a lutheran, catholic, mormon, etc. but that you simply believe in God - not that there's anything wrong with being in a specific religion)



No, he was actually an atheist in the sense that he didn't believe in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God. He did believe that a greater force possibly existed -- i.e. true intelligent design (as opposed to creationism masked as intelligent design) -- but he explicitly said that he did not believe in the "God" who rewards the righteous and punishes the wrongdoers. Unfortunately, his quotes are often taken out of context by creationists. Although he was Jewish and partook in the traditions, he did not believe in religion. Interestingly though, when he attended Catholic school (go figure) as a young boy, he was so good at  the religion classes that the other (Catholic) students often came to him for help.

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## Oneironaught

Thank you, dsr.

a_pirates_life_for_me: I was pointing out that your argument of "Einstein's being religious" was moot because he obviously wasn't religious in the traditional sense.

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## dsr

Oneironaught, your welcome.

a_pirates_life_for_me, although Einstein was not a good example, there have been many religious people who were not simple-minded. One such example is Sir Isaac Newton, one of the most brilliant minds ever in science and mathematics. I think Newton serves your point fine. Judging by the Church's treatment of many other scientists during the Scientific Revolution, Newton would never have been knighted in his day if he hadn't been so religious.

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## Oneironaught

> Oneironaught, your welcome.
> 
> a_pirates_life_for_me, although Einstein was not a good example, there have been many religious people who were not simple-minded.



I don't want to somehow get lumped into people thinking that I've somehow claimed (even by omission) that religious=simple-minded. The two have nothing to do with each other. I have very good [highly-religious] friends who are brilliant people.

On the other hand, I would never use "being religious" as a basis for any one's validity on _any issue_. I think intellectual endeavors require intellectual processes, not a foundation of faith.

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## dsr

I totally agree with you.

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## feverins

from my point of view, god hates the sin, not the sinner.

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## SEBSTER

you know what? there should just be like RULES about dreaming in the Bible or any sacred text. If god truly knows and rules everything howcome theres nothing about LDs in the bible?

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## towarmforacoat

> you know what? there should just be like RULES about dreaming in the Bible or any sacred text. If god truly knows and rules everything howcome theres nothing about LDs in the bible?



Because God did not write the bible or any sacred texts, only His ideas are in it. If God mentioned Lucid dreaming to the writers of the bible and such, they would not have a clue as to what He meant. Also, if God were to be as detailed as to mention lucid dreaming, then He would mention loads of other things that did not exist during the writing of the bible and such, and the bible would have to be carried with a fork-lift. ::shock::

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## luv2dream

about that whole einstein conversation, a_pirates_life_for_me, dont feel bad, i thought einstein was religious too!

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## lagunagirl

> about that whole einstein conversation, a_pirates_life_for_me, dont feel bad, i thought einstein was religious too!



hey me too! I wonder if it's a common misconception or if we're just a weird bunch of people

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## Oneironaught

> hey me too! I wonder if it's a common misconception or if we're just a weird bunch of people



It's probably a little of both  ::D:

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## Jimbo9889

I have a arrived to the true message of Christianity if not any religion... That is that it does not matter what your religion, race, creed, color, sexual preference you are. You are all equal in the face of God. Faith, The Things You Do and How Good You Control Yourself is what is important. 

"The Father does not Judge his son on who he is because, the father is part of the son. However, there two individuals and the father Judges you on what you do. If you mess up and are truly sorry for what wrong you have done than the father can forgive you. It does not matter what you have what matters is what you do with what you have. We are only free when we are free from our possesions and selfishness... " 

Man Im coming out with wisdom left and right. Thats the truth and it something that we all need to understand about religion. Unfortunately bad men go mad with power and tell us that you need to stay away from certain people. God sent is Word to Earth to say say its love and love needs to be enjoyed with everyone not certain people...

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## luv2dream

> It's probably a little of both



hehe thanks!  ::rolleyes::  :smiley:  anyway, i've been wondering, pretty off subject, but how do you pronounce your username? is it like one-iron-naught or is it different?

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## Oneironaught

> hehe thanks!  anyway, i've been wondering, pretty off subject, but how do you pronounce your username? is it like one-iron-naught or is it different?



Oh-nigh-row-naught. ("nigh" rhymes with "sigh" and "thigh")

But, you could also go with "Oh-nigh-ruh-naught", if you chose to.

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## lindsey609

> Also, if God were to be as detailed as to mention lucid dreaming, then He would mention loads of other things that did not exist during the writing of the bible and such, and the bible would have to be carried with a fork-lift.



Good insight. I agree with this, and even though God is outside of human consideration, if anyone knows what I mean, He still has to consider how many people would think all of this is just rubbish. (lucid dreaming) Especially in the Bible!

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## Lonewolf

> Really, God doesn't hate _anyone_, but just has a righteous anger towards that person who seeks out sin. People who practice sin normally don't do it on purpose. For example: porn. It's not my weakness, but some of my friends, and they don't want to practice that sin, yet they still do because they're only human. My point is: people who seek sin out, God doesn't hate; he's probably just disappointed or angry at that person..



Yes, God _does_ hate certain individuals, people who are wicked in his eyes.

Psalms 11:5: The Lord examines the righteous, 
but the wicked and those who love violence 
his soul *hates.*

Romans 9:13: Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I *hated."*

It is true that what God is really hating is the sinful act itself but a person practicing that forces God to be aganst the person too.

Proverbs 6:16-19:
16 There are six things the Lord hates, 
seven that are detestable to him: 
17 haughty eyes, 
a lying tongue, 
hands that shed innocent blood, 
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, 
feet that are quick to rush into evil, 
19 a false witness who pours out lies 
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

Proverbs 8:13: To fear the Lord is to hate what is bad

So you can try to convince yourself all you want that you can't help it that you watch porn. But really, if you were to hate what is bad, would you even allow it to be in your home? Would you even allow yourself to dwell on impure thoughts even though you have the free will to dismiss them? Even though you can pray to God for help? Yes I know people sin everyday, because that is mankind's condition, but you should not use that as excuse to go on consciously persueing certain forms of entertainment that glorify bloodshed and immorality. God knows the hearts, he knows what you can and can't control.





> Even if you murder, you can still be forgiven for that sin. If it's suicide, you can probably still be forgiven for that and go to heaven for that. I'm pretty sure that's right; I should check it out.



Yes you can be forgiven, such as the apostle Paul was forgiven for persecuting and even killing the true christians. But it was because he was ignorant at that time.

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## SEBSTER

wow its so crazy to see how many people are willing to go on about religion forever :smiley:

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## Jeremysr

> you know what? there should just be like RULES about dreaming in the Bible or any sacred text. If god truly knows and rules everything howcome theres nothing about LDs in the bible?



The Bible isn't a rulebook, it's a guide to life and God's way of communicating with us. The Bible contains rules or sins to show us that we are sinful. God never said to Adam and Eve "Do not kill each other", I don't think. All he said was "Don't eat from that one tree." After they did that, and sin entered the world, that was when he had to make laws.





> Yes, God _does_ hate certain individuals, people who are wicked in his eyes.



In God's eyes, *everyone* is sinful or "wicked". I'm sure God doesn't hate everyone.

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## Lonewolf

> In God's eyes, *everyone* is sinful or "wicked". I'm sure God doesn't hate everyone.



Again, from the scriptures I just mentioned, God says he hates the wicked. Being sinful is not the same as being wicked. God will protect those who turn to him from the real wicked ones, that is those who ignore God and continue to commit gross sins. 

Psalms 37:40: And Jehovah God will help them and provide them with escape.
He will provide them with escape from *wicked* people and save them,
Because they have taken refuge in him. 

Daniel 12:10: Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand. 

-So those who observe Gods commandments are certainly NOT wicked.

If you are going to say anything concerning the bible you should really quote from the scriptures instead.

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## Jimbo9889

You see this is why I dont like bring old testament into this because, with Christ he brought in a new testament. A New Contract between Human and Divinity. Jesus and b/c of Jesus God and Holy Spirit no long care about who you are they care about what you do. For example:

My name is [fill in]. I am [age] years old [Gender]. I am part of the [income level]. I believe in [beliefs/philosophy/religion]. I am a [sexual orientation] I am [Ethnicity].

Thats the story of so what^

It does not matter who you are. What matters is what you believe... Now it was mention somewhere earlier that God hates certain people those people mention were not people but the sins. Jesus says "Hate the Sin not the Sinner."

Some say you have to deny yourself(Ego) other say its a lesson of self-control

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## Nekratal

I personally am a satanist by definition.  Which means I dont believe in heaven or hell or god or satan. I am my own god. My thoughts on you origional question would be if it goes against your personal morals dont do it. In other words if you feel bad about it don't do it.  The only diference between me and you in this situation is that I come up with my morals, you ( I am assuming)  get most of yours from the bible. If you are fine with someone or something telling you your morals and values, listen to the bible then.

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## JCDenton

Fantastic thread!!! I've been thinking about this for some time. As someone has stated, I think religions (and the bible) have been created for power and control because they've been created by man who where seeking their own interests. I also don't believe in god, but that's a totally different matter... I fully respect people who believe in him and "follow him", but I don't agree with those who follow "standardized" religions blindly and use quotations from the bible to prove those same quotations (THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY MAN!, so this is a CIRCULUS IN DEMONSTRANDO (circular thought)).
I think the video game comparison was perfect to resolve the issue. Although I love violent video games (GTA YEY!) I despite all violence in real life... So in my dreams I kill, beat up, rape... whatever... without felling guilty. Ok, in most of my lucid dreams I just summon people I haven't seen in a long time or miss...  ::D:

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## luv2dream

> b/c of Jesus God and Holy Spirit no long care about who you are they care about what you do.



not true, God loves everyone and cares about everyone. It's not just what you do, he cares about who you are wether you believe it or not

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> (THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY MAN!,



It was translated by man and written through the word of God

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## luv2dream

> you ( I am assuming) get most of yours from the bible. If you are fine with someone or something telling you your morals and values, listen to the bible



I wouldn't say exactly that I really believe in the bible, cause i'm not exactly sure about it. I believe in the book of mormon, and the morals I have may be in the scriptures but they would have been my morals anyway whether they were in the scriptures or not. I'm not letting something else tell me what my morals are, that's my decision.

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## Jimbo9889

> not true, God loves everyone and cares about everyone. It's not just what you do, he cares about who you are wether you believe it or not



Misunderstood what I was saying... They obviously care about you but... Its not who you are that will send you to Hell its what you do that will determine that...

As for the post made by JCDenton(great game btw Dues Ex: Invisible War) saying:





> I fully respect people who believe in him and "follow him", but I don't agree with those who follow "standardized" religions blindly and use quotations from the bible to prove those same quotations



Thats my view also... I identify myself as a christian because, I believe what Christ says not Paul! Christ message was as I have been saying over and over again:

1. Love Each Other
2. Treat Those The Way You Want To Be Treated
3. Self-Control is important not to be selfish...

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## JCDenton

> It was translated by man and written through the word of God



It was written BY man... If it was through the word of god or not, that you can't ever know.

But as I said before, I don't care about whether it is a sin or not... your not really hurting anyone so... who cares...

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## zobey

I don't think it would be a sin.  I think LDs can alow you to explore things that you probably wouldn't do in real life.  To much of it might not be healthy though.  Regardless, I love pwning DCs with any host of firearms.

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## TheUniversalOne

> ok, first off this isn't something that i'm trying to be too serious about, I'm just curious what people might think, and if you're not religious at all, it's fine if you comment on something, but please no "religion sucks" comments, honestly, from experience, those conversations are a waste of time. Ok so here's the question. You can do whatever you want in a lucid dream right? So if I did something in a dream that people would consider a sin in real life, like raping someone (even though I have no intention of EVER doing that, it's just an example) would you consider it a sin? Even though it's in a dreamworld and you're not really doing it, but you're concious and you're controlling yourself to do it? Just wondering




A sin is any act that hurts anyone else (all religion aside). I think if you take control of your dream and do harmful things to others that is just as bad as if you were to do them in "real life" because I feel the universe has moral laws that should be followed even if they are slightly different from our more mundane ones. We think we are not being watched, but I'm sure every act we do willfully reflects on our personalities and how others will percieve us/determines the people we attract into our lives, etc... 

 ::banana::

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> It was written BY man... If it was through the word of god or not, that you can't ever know.



actually you CAN know, which is what non-religious people find hard to believe, but I'm not going to go through the whole explination of HOW you can know because 1) You probably wouldn't understand 2) you probably wouldn't care 3) you probably wouldn't believe me

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## Lonewolf

> actually you CAN know, which is what non-religious people find hard to believe, but I'm not going to go through the whole explination of HOW you can know because 1) You probably wouldn't understand 2) you probably wouldn't care 3) you probably wouldn't believe me



I totally agree. Science, archeology, and history proves it. You just have to go out and do some studying.

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## skysaw

> actually you CAN know







> you probably wouldn't believe me



Don't these two sentences contradict each other?

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## Marvo

How can you proove to me, that God spoke to people?

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## skysaw

> How can you proove to me, that God spoke to people?



The real scary question is, if God _did_ speak to someone, how do we know that person didn't write something completely different from what God said in order to further his own agenda?

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## TheUniversalOne

> The real scary question is, if God _did_ speak to someone, how do we know that person didn't write something completely different from what God said in order to further his own agenda?



They probably did. Think back to when puritans roamed the earth.

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## TheUniversalOne

> How can you proove to me, that God spoke to people?



I know I can't, might as well speak to God yourself.

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## Oneironaught

> actually you CAN know, which is what non-religious people find hard to believe, but I'm not going to go through the whole explination of HOW you can know because 1) You probably wouldn't understand 2) you probably wouldn't care 3) you probably wouldn't believe me



You can *convince* but you cannot *prove* what is unprovable.

The "proof" provided by theological supporters is always along the lines of "you just know because God speak to your heart". Now, I can't claim to disprove that because, again, it's unprovable either way. But what I will say is that "having a strong feeling" or "just knowing" is not the same thing as having proof.

Being spoken to in an internal manner is subjective and does not constitute tangible, reproducible proof. No, let me repeat that - NO - physical "proof" can ever clear up the controversy over whether or not the words in the Bible were dictated by God or merely the creative writings of ancient wordsmiths.

You may convince, yes. But to prove is a taller order than anecdotal musings can ever objectively fill. Now, none of this is to say that religion is insignificant. I believe organised religion serves a worthy purpose and function in society. I just don't attribute supernatural capabilities to its foundations.

I believe in the power of attitude and its body of implications and that religion is actually a manifestation of that, only interwoven with the objective of explaining what cannot be explained with today's body of knowledge.

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## towarmforacoat

> Don't these two sentences contradict each other?



No, he has faith and faith is believing without absolute proof, so a non-believer would not believe the explanation...  probably





> The real scary question is, if God _did_ speak to someone, how do we know that person didn't write something completely different from what God said in order to further his own agenda?



Good Point. Brings up that Man can listen to God and not record exactly what He says. Plus, the bible is composed of multiple gospels written by different people with minor nuances and some gospels were rejected for being too different (Gospel of Judas, which has recently been discovered).





> You can *convince* but you cannot *prove* what is unprovable.
> 
> The "proof" provided by theological supporters is always along the lines of "you just know because God speak to your heart". Now, I can't claim to disprove that because, again, it's unprovable either way. But what I will say is that "having a strong feeling" or "just knowing" is not the same thing as having proof.
> 
> Being spoken to in an internal manner is subjective and does not constitute tangible, reproducible proof. No, let me repeat that - NO - physical "proof" can ever clear up the controversy over whether or not the words in the Bible were dictated by God or merely the creative writings of ancient wordsmiths.



I think since multiple gospels say different things and deduce different meanings out of Jesus' teachings, the bible was written by man. Not to say they did so without God's ideas, but it doesn't seem that God directly ordered the saints or usurped their bodies.

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> Don't these two sentences contradict each other?



no, because when I say "You CAN know" i'm talking about people as a whole when I say "you probably dont believe me" I'm talking about that one individual

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## Marvo

> I know I can't, might as well speak to God yourself.



Prayers? I once did prayers. Now I don't do prayers anymore, and I don't feel the slightest difference.

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> The real scary question is, if God _did_ speak to someone, how do we know that person didn't write something completely different from what God said in order to further his own agenda?



If you were God, would you trust just anyone to write the bible through your words, or would you pick someone absolutely trustworthy that would write it to the letter exactly what you said? 
and another question, if you were _chosen_ by God to translate the bible, would you honestly lie and write something different with God telling you personally what to write. would anyone?

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## lagunagirl

> How can you proove to me, that God spoke to people?



that's not the kind of thing that another person can prove to you

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## Oneironaught

I may have mentioned this before but, it's worth noting that the Bible is only a collection of books. Many of them are stories that had been passed down by word of mouth far earlier than they were actually written out, just like any great myth of the ages. So, details change, people get made larger than life, meaning gets distorted.

There were libraries full of books to choose from when the Bible was compiled. Those that made the cut were simply cherry-picked to reinforce church doctrine and politics. The ones that actually contradict church dogma were tossed out in the first heat.

So, not only were the books themselves written, rewritten and edited by Humans but, the Bible was assembled - with strategic bias - by Humans.

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## skysaw

> If you were God, would you trust just anyone to write the bible through your words, or would you pick someone absolutely trustworthy that would write it to the letter exactly what you said? 
> and another question, if you were _chosen_ by God to translate the bible, would you honestly lie and write something different with God telling you personally what to write. would anyone?



I'll answer your questions with another question... how do you know the person with a pen in their hand was ever spoken to by God? Who was there to stop one of the writers from just saying "Hey... just heard from God. Hand me that pen!" ? Who was there to stop one writer from saying "Oh.. I don't like that passage the other guy wrote... let me just cross it out"? ... and if you just answer "God was there," then I ask, why didn't God just pick up the pen then?

Last question... how do you know God didn't inspire others to write _their_ sacred texts which conflict with the Bible?

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## Arbaces

> ok, first off this isn't something that i'm trying to be too serious about, I'm just curious what people might think, and if you're not religious at all, it's fine if you comment on something, but please no "religion sucks" comments, honestly, from experience, those conversations are a waste of time. Ok so here's the question. You can do whatever you want in a lucid dream right? So if I did something in a dream that people would consider a sin in real life, like raping someone (even though I have no intention of EVER doing that, it's just an example) would you consider it a sin? Even though it's in a dreamworld and you're not really doing it, but you're concious and you're controlling yourself to do it? Just wondering



Yeah u burn in hell

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## lagunagirl

> I think since multiple gospels say different things and deduce different meanings out of Jesus' teachings, the bible was written by man. Not to say they did so without God's ideas, but it doesn't seem that God directly ordered the saints or usurped their bodies.



different gospel teachings isn't always relient on the bible. Some pastors from a while back would say things like "God has already chosen who will be saved and who will not and there's nothing you can do about it but be a good person incase you have been chosen" (which is definately NOT true) but there's NOTHING in the bible that teaches that. It was the pastor's misconception of the symbolism. It's like that with other religions; they all percieve the different things and it's not the bible that's causing this but the leaders of their specific church that have their own ideas about it.

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## luv2dream

> Yeah u burn in hell



 ::o:  I didn't mean to offend anyone. It was just a question, did you even read the part in the post when it said "This isn't something I'm trying to be too serious about, i'm just curious" chill out if you dont like it then dont read it you dont have to leave nasty comments like that

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## JCDenton

> actually you CAN know, which is what non-religious people find hard to believe, but I'm not going to go through the whole explination of HOW you can know because 1) You probably wouldn't understand 2) you probably wouldn't care 3) you probably wouldn't believe me



I think that you're confusing what one believes with what one knows (not that you can ultimately know something)...
1) Probably I would, if you differentiated BELIEVING (which I fully respect) and KNOWING 2) I would care 3) I would believe you if you presented me proof or a plausible explanation... And if you were to present facts, then I wouldn't need to believe you.





> I totally agree. Science, archeology, and history proves it. You just have to go out and do some studying.



How can science prove that the bible was written through the word of god?! Science can't even prove the EXISTENCE or NON-EXISTENCE of god... But please, point me out in the right direction. If there is such prove I would love to read about it.

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> I'll answer your questions with another question... how do you know the person with a pen in their hand was ever spoken to by God? Who was there to stop one of the writers from just saying "Hey... just heard from God. Hand me that pen!" ? Who was there to stop one writer from saying "Oh.. I don't like that passage the other guy wrote... let me just cross it out"? ... and if you just answer "God was there," then I ask, why didn't God just pick up the pen then?
> 
> Last question... how do you know God didn't inspire others to write _their_ sacred texts which conflict with the Bible?



Do you think God would be stupid enough to have someone translate and write such a big thing with a bunch of people around with pens and paper and especially people that would do things like that. Besides, when the words of the bible were first written they didn't even HAVE pens and paper back then. they had the words carved into stone and brass plates, so I dont think there would be guys around crossing out words made out of stone. 

the next question, why didn't God just pick up the pen then? How am I supposed to know! I'm not God! All I know is that he didn't do it himself, he wanted someone else to for some reason. or maybe it was because he wasn't on earth and he couldn't just come down from heaven in front of people and start writing the bible. He needed someone from our world to recieve revelation. If you still dont understand, dont ask me, ask him

last question - how do I know that god didn't inspire others to write their sacred texts? I dont know, maybe he did! But if God inspired anyone who was writing the BIBLE to write something, then there has to be a reason! It must be important if God is going to inspire them to write it, so that question doesn't even make sense

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## JCDenton

> Do you think God would be stupid enough to have someone translate and write such a big thing with a bunch of people around with pens and paper and especially people that would do things like that.



I don't know... but he lets thousands die every week... or maybe he doesn't and he would also let "someone translate and write such a big thing"

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## luv2dream

> I think that you're confusing what one believes with what one knows (not that you can ultimately know something)...
> 1) Probably I would, if you differentiated BELIEVING (which I fully respect) and KNOWING 2) I would care 3) I would believe you if you presented me proof or a plausible explanation... And if you were to present facts, then I wouldn't need to believe you.
> 
> 
> 
> How can science prove that the bible was written through the word of god?! Science can't even prove the EXISTENCE or NON-EXISTENCE of god... But please, point me out in the right direction. If there is such prove I would love to read about it.



You keep asking for proof but how is someone else going to prove that to you? You're getting the wrong idea. If you actually care then you should try and find out for yourself. It's not about knowing, even though you think it is. It is about believing which is why a_pirates_life_for_me said that in the first place. It's about believing and having faith. That's like saying "I know what lucid dreaming is but I dont believe in it."

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> I don't know... but he lets thousands die every week...



what does that even have to do with what I was saying? And yes thousands die every week, but EVERYONE dies! That's the way life is! we're here on this earth to be tested and what kind of a test would it be if everything was easy and we didn't have trials and challenges to face, either dying or having a loved one die. It's all to see how strong you are. If we didn't have life and trials and misery then how could we really enjoy and appreciate what God has to give us if we return to heaven? He doesn't just _let_ people die. There's a point. Maybe it's their time to die and maybe he needs them for something other than being here on this earth. You need to take things like that into perspective and not blame things on God

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

wow this is getting very off subject of lucid dreaming sorry bout that

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## JCDenton

> what does that even have to do with what I was saying? And yes thousands die every week, but EVERYONE dies! That's the way life is! we're here on this earth to be tested and what kind of a test would it be if everything was easy and we didn't have trials and challenges to face, either dying or having a loved one die. It's all to see how strong you are. If we didn't have life and trials and misery then how could we really enjoy and appreciate what God has to give us if we return to heaven? He doesn't just _let_ people die. There's a point. Maybe it's their time to die and maybe he needs them for something other than being here on this earth. You need to take things like that into perspective and not blame things on God



Yes... you're right man. I used a bad example and realized as soon as I posted it. But I had to go dinner lol. My point was: If he would lift his "hand" for the bible to be written though his true word, why doesn't he stop the atrocities that are practiced every day? (I'm not trying to prove his existence\inexistence here)

What I'm trying to really say is: He may exist, I don't know... But that doesn't mean the bible has been written through his words and those words have been kept along the centuries... As someone has said, some portions of the bible were even burnt...


but yeah, it's reaaaaaally getting off topic lol =|

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## JCDenton

> You keep asking for proof but how is someone else going to prove that to you? You're getting the wrong idea. If you actually care then you should try and find out for yourself. It's not about knowing, even though you think it is. It is about believing which is why a_pirates_life_for_me said that in the first place. It's about believing and having faith. That's like saying "I know what lucid dreaming is but I dont believe in it."



No, he said "actually you CAN know". I were the one saying you can't know... You can believe though.. and I respect that

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## TheUniversalOne

> Prayers? I once did prayers. Now I don't do prayers anymore, and I don't feel the slightest difference.



Oh, I thought you were speaking about the actual connection to the oneness with everything people experience when they meditate. Umm to do prayers I think a connection is important or else you might as well be talking to your thumb. Imagine picking up a phone and talking without dialing someone's number.

 ::banana::  Ya'll have gotten quite off topic, huh?

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## iadr

Wow!  What an interesting thread with tons of quotes from the Bible.  Very interesting and enlightening.

I'll just add that the nature of God is love as the Bible says that "God is love and they that dwell in love dwell in God, and God in them".

But does God care what someone dreams about?  To answer that question put yourself in God's position.

Here you are sitting on top of the universe with a few billion people below you and one of them has a dream where they rape someone in their dream.  Do you care what this one person in a few billion dreams about?   Probably not, unless they begin carrying out those actions in real life.  

Another way to think about this is to think about how you feel about a pet you may own.  If your pet who might be a dog goes over and starts humping another dog are you going to tell him he is sinning, and disown him.  I doubt it.  You're probably going to laugh at him and tell him to behave himself.  Are you going to love him any less?  Probably not.
I'm sure God probably feels the same way toward us when we do something we shouldn't.   He's still there, and he still cares for us.  He probably even laughs sometimes at the things we do.

But is having a lucid dream where you rape someone a sin? The main thing to ask yourself is whether your dream is harming someone else, or if it is harming you, and the answer to both of these questions is probably "It depends".

Since the thoughts generated by a persons mind are energies that can be felt by other people, if the person in your dream you are raping happens to be someone you know, they could very possible feel the energy you are creating, which could cause them harm, and which would be wrong. 

For the second question Is a person harming themself by producing a dream of this nature?  Probably not, unless it becomes a habit and then starts causing the person to act out those fantasies in real life.

When a person becomes lucid in a dream, they have a choice.  They can pursue sexual dreams and stay on the lower astral realms in their dreams, or they can pursue more spiritual enlightening dreams and progress upward into the higher astral realms.  I prefer the latter, usually, although I have to admit that I have had a couple of sexual encounters in the dream world that were better than anything I've ever experienced in the physical world, and from which I felt very healthy afterwards.  So I would not argue against fulfilling ones fantasies while in the dream world.

It is really up to each person to decide how they would like to spend their time when they become lucid, because virtually anything is possible in that realm.

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## Oneironaught

> Do you think God would be stupid enough to *have someone translate and write such a big thing with a bunch of people* around with pens and paper and especially people that would do things like that.



You're failing to recognise that that's _exactly_ what _did_ happen to the Bible.





> you still dont understand, dont ask me, ask him



*[translation]*_Don't ask me; I have no idea. I'm just going by my gut and what I've been told._*[/translation]* Which is fine but, you have to make the distinction between that and truly "knowing" (I know, we can never _truly_ know, blah-blah). Facts can be proven (if they are to be considered true facts). Knowing is not necessarily that way. Knowing is simply believing with good reason. What defines good reason, however, is very subjective. This is contrary to proving, which is objective. Scripture is the object of faith and - with the exception of the historical passages that _are_ provable - remains largely unprovable.





> It is about believing which is why a_pirates_life_for_me said that in the first place. It's about believing and having faith.



I agree. The entire discussion is over the fact that a_pirates_life_for_me hasn't clearly defined his terms and is using believing and knowing interchangeably, when they are two separate concepts, albeit somewhat related.







> No, he said "actually you CAN know". I were the one saying you can't know... You can believe though.. and I respect that



True. I think we can all respect that.

I think we all see what he's saying and can probably stop arguing in circles. Or maybe not.

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## JCDenton

I think the post by iard was very good... also, what do you mean by higher realm dreams?

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## Lonewolf

God didn't just to talk to the people, they were under inspiration. They wouldn't write something else because there have been of writings of the man themselves that stated that the prophesies they were writing were from God. Normally man would want to take the credit. Some men like Daniel said they didn't even know what they were writing. God's spirit led them to write, not them alone.

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> Yes... you're right man. I used a bad example and realized as soon as I posted it. But I had to go dinner lol. My point was: If he would lift his "hand" for the bible to be written though his true word, why doesn't he stop the atrocities that are practiced every day? (I'm not trying to prove his existence\inexistence here)



well he can't stop all the bad things that happen every day because people have free agency. But yeah it's ok, I'm kind of getting too carried away with this anyway. And I'm sorry if I came off sounding as though I was trying to change your beliefs or anything like that.

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## skysaw

> Do you think God would be stupid enough to have someone translate and write such a big thing with a bunch of people around with pens and paper and especially people that would do things like that.



No. Actually I just don't believe there is a God. But you missed the point... this is a thought question to show you the problem with believing what was put down on paper by men, not God. ANY man (or woman) can write something and claim it was inspired by God. If they were to bring that writing to you, by what criteria would you determine if it was in fact divinely inspired? 

Plenty of ministers and "holy people" of our times claim to have spoken to God. If one of them presented you with a new bible so inspired, would you accept it as God's new word? And if not, why not? Wouldn't their communication with God hold as much weight as those who came before them?

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## JCDenton

> God didn't just to talk to the people, they were under inspiration. They wouldn't write something else because there have been of writings of the man themselves that stated that the prophesies they were writing were from God. Normally man would want to take the credit. Some men like Daniel said they didn't even know what they were writing. God's spirit led them to write, not them alone.



And some people like us weren't there to see for ourselves.

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## JCDenton

> well he can't stop all the bad things that happen every day because people have free agency. But yeah it's ok, I'm kind of getting too carried away with this anyway. And I'm sorry if I came off sounding as though I was trying to change your beliefs or anything like that.



 :tongue2:  no, you were just defending your own beliefs, like me... This thread got to heated up anyway =\

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## luv2dream

> Here you are sitting on top of the universe with a few billion people below you and one of them has a dream where they rape someone in their dream. Do you care what this one person in a few billion dreams about? Probably not, unless they begin carrying out those actions in real life.



that is good insight, but dont you think it would be different if it was a lucid dream, and you were conciously making the decisions on your own?

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

your quote: You're failing to recognise that that's exactly what did happen to the Bible.

And I suppose that you know this because you were there to see it... or like what everyone wants, you have proof?  ::rolleyes:: 


your quote:[translation]Don't ask me; I have no idea. I'm just going by my gut and what I've been told.[/translation] Which is fine but, you have to make the distinction between that and truly "knowing" 

right, I have no idea about *WHY* God does the things he does, but I never said I have no idea about if God exists, if the bible is true, etc. etc. and everyone's so focused on KNOWING and having PROOF but you're all failing to realize that *you cannot prove these things to anyone but yourself!* and I already have. (don't ask me how, just see my previous posts about why I'm not going to get into all that) Religion isn't _about_ KNOWING all the facts, it's about BELIEVING (even though that seems to be something that you're against) which is why it's so hard for people to accept religion; because you need to actually open your mind and TRY to feel something. And there are so many religions out there, that if someone tries one and it doesn't work for them they just give up on all the others. So no one give me crap about "i've tried, nothing happens" or "but you need to KNOW" because that's what my beliefs are about

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## lindsey609

> As someone has stated, I think religions (and the bible) have been created for power and control because they've been created by man who where seeking their own interests.



*WRONG!!!!* I am personally revolted by that. Have you even seen the freaking point of religions??!!!??!! It's a guarantee of what HAPPENS WHEN YOU DIE!!! That is the most stupid statement I've ever heard about religions. It's absolutely ridiculous.





> Misunderstood what I was saying... They obviously care about you but... Its not who you are that will send you to Hell its what you do that will determine that...



It's not what you do that will determine if you're going to hell or not. I won't explain what determines if you're going to hell or not, because it'd take a little too long for most of you, but that's *not true.*





> You can *convince* but you cannot *prove* what is unprovable.



Amen!!





> what does that even have to do with what I was saying? . . . . If we didn't have life and trials and misery then how could we really enjoy and appreciate what God has to give us if we return to heaven? He doesn't just _let_ people die. There's a point. Maybe it's their time to die and maybe he needs them for something other than being here on this earth.




That's it. That's the whole point of everything.

_"If you can't have faith in what is held up to you for faith, you must find things to believe in yourself, for a life without faith in something is too narrow a space to live."_ ~George E. Woodberry

You know I'm right . . .

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## iadr

> that is good insight, but dont you think it would be different if it was a lucid dream, and you were conciously making the decisions on your own?



Not really luv2dream.  Although in most of my lucid dreams I just become aware that I am dreaming, and then control the dream to do what I want to do, the dream still controls me to a certain extent, as I find myself doing things and sometimes having sex with people that I would never consider having sex with in real life.  So although I am controlling the dream to an extent, I am not really using the same conscious mind that I would in waking reality when I make these decisions.  Either that or else my reasoning is just different because I know that I am dreaming so don't care what I do.

I see no reason for a person to condemn themself for something they do in a lucid dream, as long as it does not become an obsession that causes them to carry those actions over into real life, as the purpose of dreaming is to allow a person to live out their fantasies.  

Although I would never consider raping someone in one of my own dreams, as I am aware enough to feel that anything other than mutual consent would just be wrong, even in a dream, I would not condemn someone else for doing that, as their level of consciousness could be different than mine, and I believe in following the verse that says to not judge others, lest you be judged yourself.

Having great sexual lucid dreams might be one of the best therapies a person can indulge themselves in.

So have a ball and enjoy yourself in your dreams.  That's what they're for.

People should spend more time thinking about what kind of great sexual fantasies they can enjoy in their lucid dreams, or even better, what new realms they can soar to while in that state,  instead of worrying about if something they do in a lucid dream is a sin or not. :smiley:

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> If one of them presented you with a new bible so inspired, would you accept it as God's new word? And if not, why not? Wouldn't their communication with God hold as much weight as those who came before them?



Well first I would have to find out the same way that I found out about the other scriptures. By reading it, studying it, praying about it, etc. until I had a testimony that it was true. And if it _was_ true, then yes it would hold as much weight, but i'm sure tha'ts not likely to happen any time soon.

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## TheUniversalOne

> I see no reason for a person to condemn themself for something they do in a lucid dream, as long as it does not become an obsession that causes them to carry those actions over into real life, as the purpose of dreaming is to allow a person to live out their fantasies.




I agree with this. When I am lucid I'm never really 100&#37; concious, though I may have had 2 dreams where I was 100% in control. If someone fantisizes about raping someone and carries them out in their lucid dreams to the point where it becomes an obsession... then that will definitely carry over into their physical actions if they allow it to consume their subconcious and concious mind. We think we are in control of our actions, but it's all a result of what we think.

 ::banana:: 

And I don't know why sins have to directly relate to religion. It's just something you do that hurts someone else.

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## skysaw

> ANY man (or woman) can write something and claim it was inspired by God. If they were to bring that writing to you, by what criteria would you determine if it was in fact divinely inspired? 
> 
> Plenty of ministers and "holy people" of our times claim to have spoken to God. If one of them presented you with a new bible so inspired, would you accept it as God's new word? And if not, why not? Wouldn't their communication with God hold as much weight as those who came before them?







> Well first I would have to find out the same way that I found out about the other scriptures. By reading it, studying it, praying about it, etc. until I had a testimony that it was true. And if it _was_ true, then yes it would hold as much weight, but i'm sure tha'ts not likely to happen any time soon.



Thank you for answering this, pirate... I thought the question had been had been lost in the shuffle.

I do think you considered the question carefully, and answered the best you could, which I very much appreciate. I wonder if I could bother you to carry this thought process a bit further.

Do you feel confident that you would be able reach a determination? Would you feel driven enough to examine a new text on that level if you had the initial suspicion you seem to regarding any new claims? 

I guess what I'm really getting at is whether or not you might see how natural it is to have suspicion about a text's supposed divine inspiration. There doesn't seem to be a litmus test that would show you whether text A were more valid than text B. And if it takes as much study, prayer, and reflection to make a determination, have you given this much attention to all of the other religious texts out there? Might they not have as much an impact on you if you gave them equal time?

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## Beef Jerky

> like raping someone



Why bother? It's your dream so will them into wanting to  ::D:

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## a_pirates_life_for_me

> Thank you for answering this, pirate... I thought the question had been had been lost in the shuffle.
> 
> I do think you considered the question carefully, and answered the best you could, which I very much appreciate. I wonder if I could bother you to carry this thought process a bit further.
> 
> Do you feel confident that you would be able reach a determination? Would you feel driven enough to examine a new text on that level if you had the initial suspicion you seem to regarding any new claims? 
> 
> I guess what I'm really getting at is whether or not you might see how natural it is to have suspicion about a text's supposed divine inspiration. There doesn't seem to be a litmus test that would show you whether text A were more valid than text B. And if it takes as much study, prayer, and reflection to make a determination, have you given this much attention to all of the other religious texts out there? Might they not have as much an impact on you if you gave them equal time?



sure I wouldn't mind carrying the thought process further  :wink2:  Ok so this is something that I take quite seriously, so if you have anything to say against it... please go easy on me  :smiley:  Also, hopefully no one would mind if I use a certain religion, but as for myself I believe in the book of mormon... I guess the bible too... but moreso the book of mormon. Ok so what we believe is in not believing in the church because someone told us it was true or because our parents or friends believe it, but because we have a testimony. Which is kind of what I was talking about with the whole believing, having faith, having a "burning feeling" that it's true (which the actual thing is more on a deeper level than just believing and feeling which is hard for people to understand if they haven't experienced it for themselves) to answer your question about giving other religious texts time, I have been to other churches besides just the LDS church, and the more than one religion believes in the bible, so I have tried more religions than just mormon, but I wouldn't say that I've given them equal time because I've been a mormon for longer because I've gained a testimony. Wow, i'm sure a lot of people on this thread are going to think I'm crazy. like I said... please go easy on me! So my answer to your question as to why I haven't given other religions more time... it's simply because I've already found the right one. And anyone reading this who is of a different religion, dont think I'm trying to convert anyone or anything... and I'm definately NOT telling anyone they're going to burn in hell or something for NOT being mormon, i'm not saying that at all. I really hope I didn't offend anyone with this and I hope I answered your question.

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## H Savvy

A certain heathen came to Shammai and said to him, "Make me a proselyte, on condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Thereupon he repulsed him with the rod which was in his hand. When he went to Hillel, he said to him, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor: that is the whole Torah; all the rest of it is commentary; go and learn."

-Talmud

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## Jimbo9889

I have a few things to say...

1. All these arguments I imagine like a food fight happening while we try to prove our points. Which I find hillarious... Humble yourselfs people its like a colony of ants bickering back n forth. Priceless...

2. It is the work you do that makes you look good in front of God. Its called Merit! If you have very little merit you still look good in front of God. If people think that by faith-alone you are saved than your no better than the bible pounding religious fanatics who have been around since 300 AD. All hatred can be traced back to Paul is message say kill, let go off, whip them, enslave them or scare them into submission! Thats no better than The Pope saying by order of the Pope saying "Kill All Jews" or "Kill The Muslims" there against our religion they have hurted us! I WOULD NOT LISTEN WHY?! Because, the church is not Powerful God is and Christ is and he said to Love Each Other.

3. The Church preaches about eternal damnation or punishment(HELL). When in reality it is not true. Here is a PARADOX PEOPLE "IF GOD SENT JESUS INTO THE WORLD TO SAVE EVERYONE... WHY WOULD HE DAMN ALL THEM? SOME OF THEM?" Yes hell and heaven exist of course ITS TEMPORARY... Hell is temporary... You stay there until you repay your unforgiven sins. Your purged of them all.

4. The church keeps these words from you making you ignorant to the truth. Love, Respect and Self-Control is Christ message! Jesus Christ... Let me tell you something... You are divine brothers and sisters of earth of this argument and of this forum. Jesus was but a man however, Christ [Annointed One] was the divine. Jesus Christ came into the world to teach of the Divinity of Being Human. He said you experience God when you experience Love. God is Love....

5. So why does God mention all this revenge? Righteous Indignation it is called using love to show the world that love is powerful against Hate and Haters.

So altogether the bible is misinterpreted which means parts of God's word is misinterpreted... Let me ask you something since 300 BC has the General Pattern to Life Changed in a beneficial way? No, Church is an organization of powerful and tricky people. They have there power through the beliefs of others they pull on peoples beliefs and when they say this is wrong than guess what it is wrong to those believers they act by will of the church.

Yet we all know the church corced western society to goto war against Muslims because, they were in the holy land[The Crusades]. Now, wheres the love? Its Gone to the Power to Control People using Fear to Do or Give Things They Want and the church along with any ORGANIZED RELIGION will do anything to Keep That Power!

Pope John Paul II great man made the church look great. Now, Pope Benedict back to the hellfire and Damnation of things. Terrible!

------------------------ Thats was for the Believers -----------------------

Now what about athiest and agnostics...? There wrong to they say Gods Dead and Science explained him away... That invites arrogance and ignorance... Because, now, you have pissed over Ex-Followers of some faith doing and indulging in everything that is selfish and exhibit no control over there emotions and body.

1) The Athiest- I believe God's Dead...
2) Christian- Fuck you asshole your goin to hell...

Both exhibit ignorance... 

Athiest denies God> God> Founded Western Religion and If Not Also Eastern Religion> Denies The Teachings and Morals from God since he doesnt exist> Athiest has no morals and thinks he is the master of his own life... "If I want something, I will steal it if I have no $$$"

Religious Guy Hears Hate of The Church rooted in a man who misinterpreted the meaning of Christ> Accepts Hatred> Uses it to scare unbeliever into submission... 

Guess what it might get verbal and if it gets verbal one thing leads to another and might get physical! Both ignored The Teachings Christ... Love, Respect and Self-Control... Christ will say "Ignorance is Bliss!"

---------------------- For The Stereotypical Athiest -----------------------

Science was created by man to make ourselves feel like we are all-knowing and powerful beings in this large and currently empty of any other life universe! Humble yourselfs people and realize that we made science because, we try to discredited anothers way of life. _We want to feel accepted..._ Through _religion its acceptence by belief_ and _science its acceptence by knowledge and "reason"_... *We need both and we want to be accepted by others...* So what if it was *Acceptence by Love, Respect and Self-Control*. Than we shall see progress in life!

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## HandicapReborn

A good test is to determine whether we can honestly, in good conscience, ask God to bless and use the particular activity for His own good purposes. *"Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God" (1 Corinthians 10:31).* If there is room for doubt as to whether it pleases God, then it is best to give it up. "*For whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23)*. (c) We need to remember that our bodies, as well as our souls, have been redeemed and belong to God. "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (1 Corinthians 6:19,20). This great truth should have a real bearing on what we do and where we go with our bodies.

_quoted from http://gotquestions.org/_ 

I didn't write that. 

By the way, if that didn't answer your question, then the site will definately have it on there......the people there basically analyzed the entire Bible and then took questions from people and applied thier knowledge to the questions!  It's an amazing site!

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## lagunagirl

> 1. All these arguments I imagine like a food fight happening while we try to prove our points. Which I find hillarious... Humble yourselfs people its like a colony of ants bickering back n forth. Priceless...



haha so true... except with that long comment you posted it seems that you're just another ant like us bickering back and forth about our arguments.

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## Silvanus350

> ...*(Romans 14:23)*. (c) We ...



Did someone just try to copyright Bible verses?  What the heck is that "(c)" doing there?

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## Lunalight

Ok, I haven't taken the time to read all of the posts, but this right here is just my personal opinion, I'm not trying to convince anybody, just stating my opinion.  I think that the idea of sin is created by environment and society.  For example, if you were raised alone, with no human contact except for a serial killer, who told you that killing was the right thing and, I dunno, listening to music was a sin, wouldn't you beleive that it was?  So anyway, I don't think it would be a sin, because society's rules and regulations don't apply to the dream world.  But you probably wouldn't want to do it anyway because since you have been raised in this society whhere killing and rape is wrong, it might make you feel guilty in real life, even though you actually did nothing.  Just my 2 cents.

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## sloth

The usual Christian answer is, yes... if you are lucid.

According to the Christians I have spoken with, they believe that by imagining or wanting to do something, you have already done it, in a way.

...I know.. It's retarded.

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## Lunalight

> The usual Christian answer is, yes... if you are lucid.
> 
> According to the Christians I have spoken with, they believe that by imagining or wanting to do something, you have already done it, in a way.
> 
> ...I know.. It's retarded.



No offense to anyone, (you can take offense if you want I guess, but I'd be less trouble if you didn't) but I think that's absolutely ridiculous.

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## sloth

Well, I agree. LOL

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## H Savvy

Ultimately, the choices and understandings are all personal.
Churches are social institutions meant to regulate and unite individuals with a similar bent of spiritual beliefs. But by that very nature, they are beaurocratic institutions. Across the years, the systems of rules and regulations and accepted understandings, passing through countless re-tellings and re-translations, become less applicable and, reciprocally, more applied, leading some to disillusionment.

So there's nothing wrong with faith, nor with community, nor with social institutions, but it's best to remember to take everything with a grain of salt, and rely on them for guidance rather than strict law.

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## HandicapReborn

I agree with Jimbo there!

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## Jimbo9889

You are spirtual beings created for love and obdience... To merely believe or have faith in love and obdience is not enough on the physical plane of existence you need to manifest it...  ::banana::

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## Lonewolf

> The usual Christian answer is, yes... if you are lucid.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the Christians I have spoken with, they believe that by imagining or wanting to do something, you have already done it, in a way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...I know.. It's retarded.





Well according to the christian bible, no its not quite that drastic. If you are thinking of 'sinning' you didn't already do it obviously. But if you want to sin, its not like you are going to be just merely wanting to forever, you are going to do it eventually.
When it says the expression "already sinning in his heart" it means that this desire will cause him to stumble and that the outcome is inevitable.

It's an inclination that turns into action.

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## Carôusoul

what is a sin?

it isn't doing something a-moral, contrary to popular belief..


it literally translated is "Falling short of god's target for you" well, thats a modernised version, with the same gist.

So I'm not a christian, but do you think you would be falling short of god's expectation if you imagined raping someone?

I think god would expect more of me tbh.





But I'm not a christian so what do I know eh.

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## warock

> put it this way....i've killed trillions of people in video games...but I wouldn't consider those sins....thats the way i look at it.



Exactly.

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## unseen wombat

> Also, the Bible never mentions hell once. Hell is a mistranslation of the word sheol or something, and is supposed to mean "grave", so you don't have to worry about that if you are christian.



Perhaps you're forgetting the verse where Jesus himself says sinners will be cast into a lake of fire. Right, he didn't say the specific word "hell," but I think that's an acceptable description of a _lake of fire_

As I read more posts, I see everyone seems to be hung up on sin only being sin if it hurts someone else. I can understand that reasoning from non-christians, but Christians must know that Jesus himself said that to even look at a woman lustfully was a sin. How can you say that gleefully entertaining all kinds of sinful desires and consciously acting on them, even if it is only in dreams, is not a sin, in light of the words of the Son of God himself?





> If dreams accurately mirrored our true selves then (and I hate to tell you this), by your God's standards, we're all going to rot and burn in hell for eternity



Exactly the Christians' point. I won't say that I hate to tell _you_ this, but I know you won't like it. You, and everyone else would rot and burn in hell for eternity except for the sacrifice of Jesus.

I have to agree with Sylvanus. The quotes from the Bible pretty much seal off any room for argument. Unless you don't believe in the Bible, or sin, in which case, why are you here?

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