# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity > Lucid Aids >  >  Galantamine + Choline

## dodobird

I tried it last night as a WILD aid with success.
I'm a newbie and I had just 2 WILDs before, and this WILD was much more full fledged, and I didn't lose my awareness for a second.
 (This is my second time of trying Galantamine + Choline. The first time was about a month ago and I failed and fell asleep, and I slept quite badly too)

 I took 4mg Galantamine and 500mg Choline Bitartrate about 4:30 hours after going to sleep. I then attempted to do WILD. 
 I tried to do relaxation meditation, to stop the "voice in the head", the annoying thinking that distructs you. I was quite unsuccessful, so I gave up on relaxation after about 20 minutes and leaned on the side, and waited for HI.
 After about 20 minutes I heard the most horrible screeching sound as if the very fabric of reality is being torn apart, and after I endured that I entered the dream.
 The dream was very vivid, very clear and organized. Every once in a while I felt like I was waking up, and I didn't move so I can re-enter the dream, and I succeeded in re-entering the dream about 4 times. I don't know if it was false or real awakenings. 
 All together the dream ( or chained dreams ) were rather long, about an hour. I was very satisfied with the dream, but for my taste this dream was too normal and neat, I prefer more bizarre dreams. In this dream I was walking around in a city. I could think very clearly, and I remembered that I wanted just to look around and observe the dream-scape. I remembered someone ( I think billybob ) suggesting to focus on textures in order to make the dream more vivid and detailed, and I looked closely at the texture on my hand, the walls etc.

 Side effects: 
 1) After waking for good from the dream, (which I decided to do because I had enough ), I was very awake, and couldn't go back to sleep ( and didn't want to go to sleep )
 But that was fine because I lay there reviewing the dream for a while.
 2) In the morning I fealt very slight 'heart-burn', and some hunger, which is unusual for me to feel in morning.
 3) During the day ( now ) I feel more alert than usual, my sight is slightly different: kinda  sprarkly and a little less focused, as if it was over-focused to a degree that you see a little less clearly. The same goes for my thoughts, they are a little too quick, in a way which makes the flow of thinking a little less continuous. It's literary feels as if each neuron in my brain is shooting too fast, and so the next neuron can't catch up fast enough to enable normal, relaxed thoughts. But these effects are quite subtle, and not a major problem.

 If I will feel any other side effects during the day I will update.

 I will now let the Galantamine clear out of my body, and may try again in about week, and report again.

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## dodobird

I add to the list of side effects that I have experienced during the day after taking these supplements is accelerated heart beat. The side effects wore off during the day and disappeared the next day. I would say that the overall after-effect is similar to an alcohol hang-over, but only the physical effects, without the mental depression that alcohol hang-over sometimes cause. I will try again in a few days the same dose, and if I succeed in the WILD again, I will try with a lower dose.

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## Adrenaline Junkie

Nice stuff, if it works for you then keep at it but don't keep taking it to the point in which you depend on the stuff, think of it as an aid to help you experiment to see what you can achieve if you put effort into it. Don't depend on these things to help you. You need to try things naturally once in a while.

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## memeticverb

Hey this sounds worth trying.  Thanks for the post.  I know choline is safe to take everyday, as is galantamine, but I just read on Wikipedia that its most common side effect is upset stomach, which may explain the heartburn.  

They are good drugs, however, and unlike what the above poster said, it would not be a bad thing for someone to be "dependent" on them since they increase brain function and memory.  Its like saying its bad to become attached to bananas or vitamins... but anyone knows if they regularly take a vitamin and then stop they feel tired since their bodies are used to having more nutrients to work with...

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## dodobird

> Nice stuff, if it works for you then keep at it but don't keep taking it to the point in which you depend on the stuff, think of it as an aid to help you experiment to see what you can achieve if you put effort into it. Don't depend on these things to help you. You need to try things naturally once in a while.



I agree.

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## dodobird

> Hey this sounds worth trying.  Thanks for the post.  I know choline is safe to take everyday, as is galantamine, but I just read on Wikipedia that its most common side effect is upset stomach, which may explain the heartburn.  
> 
> They are good drugs, however, and unlike what the above poster said, it would not be a bad thing for someone to be "dependent" on them since they increase brain function and memory.  Its like saying its bad to become attached to bananas or vitamins... but anyone knows if they regularly take a vitamin and then stop they feel tired since their bodies are used to having more nutrients to work with...



 Cholin is a normal nutrient that exists in many foods, but galantamine isn't. Some say galantamine can improve memory, but it also have a lot of side effects. Also, you can develop a tolerance to galantamine, and then it will not work as lucid aid, so I wouldn't use it too much. In any case it takes about 48 hours for galantamine to flush out of the body, so it's not a good idea to take it every day. Once in 2 or 3 days is probably safe, if once in a while you take at least a week off it, to get rid of any tolerance that may have developed.

 In any case I look at such supplements as way to help my progress in LD mastering. 
 I will use the analogy of swimming: At first it's often advised to people learning to swim to use floaters. After they get the hang of the motions, they can get rid of the floaters. 

 The problem with LD is that it's a bit of an All or Nothing ability, in this I mean that you become lucid, or you don't. I know there is the semi-lucid state, but that usually not really an intermediate step, but more like a variant. 
 With most things that we learn, the progress is gradual, but with LD the progress is a quantum leap between non lucidity and lucidity. 
 I think this is why it is so difficult to learn to LD. In _theory_, what such supplements can do is help to breach this quantum leap, help to succeed in LD even without mastering it, and if you are careful not to become dependent on the supplements, it might be used as an intermediate step.

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## memeticverb

> Cholin is a normal nutrient that exists in many foods, but galantamine isn't. Some say galantamine can improve memory, but it also have a lot of side effects. Also, you can develop a tolerance to galantamine, and then it will not work as lucid aid, so I wouldn't use it too much. In any case it takes about 48 hours for galantamine to flush out of the body, so it's not a good idea to take it every day. Once in 2 or 3 days is probably safe, if once in a while you take at least a week off it, to get rid of any tolerance that may have developed.
> 
>  In any case I look at such supplements as way to help my progress in LD mastering. 
>  I will use the analogy of swimming: At first it's often advised to people learning to swim to use floaters. After they get the hang of the motions, they can get rid of the floaters. 
> 
>  The problem with LD is that it's a bit of an All or Nothing ability, in this I mean that you become lucid, or you don't. I know there is the semi-lucid state, but that usually not really an intermediate step, but more like a variant. 
>  With most things that we learn, the progress is gradual, but with LD the progress is a quantum leap between non lucidity and lucidity. 
>  I think this is why it is so difficult to learn to LD. In _theory_, what such supplements can do is help to breach this quantum leap, help to succeed in LD even without mastering it, and if you are careful not to become dependent on the supplements, it might be used as an intermediate step.



Hey could you tell me where you found that Galantamine isnt safe for every day?  Ive heard that it is fine if you dont suffer from the side effects.

It seems that if someone gains from supplements they should continue taking them if they are not  causing side effects.   With drugs, especially herbal or natural ones, if they  do not harm the body, like hard drugs do, then there is no such thing as becoming dependent on them.  

With lucid dreaming there isnt really a way any suppliment can make someone LD.  Herbs can only be indirectly causally responsible.  If taking choline makes it easier, then it should every time, and to stop taking it wouldnt be good since it aids brain function and some people naturally dont produce enough of the right nutrients.  Ive been taking Baopa Caapi for increased memory and have noticed improvement as well as synergistic effects with other substances.  I might take it for the rest of my life  :smiley:

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## dodobird

> Hey could you tell me where you found that Galantamine isnt safe for every day?  Ive heard that it is fine if you dont suffer from the side effects.



The problem is that side effects for galantamine are very common. I experienced the neurological effects that I described above, and they where not nice at all. 
( Afcourse, it could also be from the Cholin, or the dosage I tried, I intend to investigate into this further by experimentation ).





> Hey could you tell me where you found that galantamine 
> 
> It seems that if someone gains from supplements they should continue taking them if they are not  causing side effects.   With drugs, especially herbal or natural ones, if they  do not harm the body, like hard drugs do, then there is no such thing as becoming dependent on them.



You cannot be dependent on galantamine as you do on addictive drugs. but personaly I don't want to be dependent on an external chemical for LD mastery. I want to be able to have LD's by pure mental training. 





> With lucid dreaming there isnt really a way any suppliment can make someone LD.  Herbs can only be indirectly causally responsible.  If taking choline makes it easier, then it should every time, and to stop taking it wouldnt be good since it aids brain function and some people naturally dont produce enough of the right nutrients.  Ive been taking Baopa Caapi for increased memory and have noticed improvement as well as synergistic effects with other substances.  I might take it for the rest of my life



 Choline is a nutrient, but galantamine isn't. galantamine inhibits the enzyme that breaks down acetyl-cholin. The body has a mechanism for controlling the levels of the neuro-transmitters. In a healthy person, this mechanism works well, and so you are able to be alert during the day, tired during the night, hyper-alert if there is danger, relaxed after you eat ( so that the body can invest energy on digestion ), etc.

 Sometimes we want to disrupt this mechanism, for example by drinking coffee, which makes us more alert and concentrated. but disrupting this mechanism should be done thoughtfully and carefully, otherwise it causes you problems. The simplest example is that drinking coffee at night may cause you trouble falling asleep. Other substances that disrupt the neuro-transmitter natural balance can be much more harmful.

 Galantamine certainly disrupts the mechanism of controlling levels of acetyl-choilne. When the body wants to break down acetyl-choilne to reduce its level, it does so for a reason, and galantamine don't let the body reduce the level.

 Taking galantamine occasionally for dream enhancement, or for attempting to progress on LD mastery is in my opinion legitimate, but I wouldn't do it too often.

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## DreamScience

Hi dodobird,

this supplemented approach is indeed reliable. A friendly guy named Thomas Yuschak investigates supplements for lucid dreaming since a long time and made great progress. I don't know if you have your ideas from his page, but in case you do, you should tell the people.

You can access his research here: http://www.advancedld.com/LDS_profiles.html

or buy his book, where he describes in detail, how everyone can achieve LDs with supplements.

Please don't take this as offence.

Greetings,

DS

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## dodobird

> Hi dodobird,
> 
> this supplemented approach is indeed reliable. A friendly guy named Thomas Yuschak investigates supplements for lucid dreaming since a long time and made great progress. I don't know if you have your ideas from his page, but in case you do, you should tell the people.
> 
> You can access his research here: http://www.advancedld.com/LDS_profiles.html
> 
> or buy his book, where he describes in detail, how everyone can achieve LDs with supplements.
> 
> Please don't take this as offence.
> ...



 Yes I read this book, and like you guessed I based this experiment on this book.
 I think this book is very interesting but if you make web searches on the subject of supplements and LD you will find very little information. 
 The only apparent consensus is that B6 vitamin is useful, but even that some people believe it's just placebo. 
 Other than that you will find only scattered information on the web, almost all of it isn't tested scientifically. This shows that this is a very new area, and everything is still in the experimental stage.
 Because of this I don't think anyone can truthfully claim that they really know anything for sure, and indeed throughout the book Yuschak reports what works on himself, and what may work also on others, based on his experience, experience of others that he know that have tried it, and knowledge of physiology. I think Yuschak is quite honest in his approach, and I like that.

 In any case, my point is that I still have _no idea_ whether the approach works, and because of that I don't think I should give any credit to the web site, nor should I recommend anyone to try it.

 After I complete a lot more experimentation on the supplements suggested by this book, I intend to write a book review to this forum, but now it is way too early. All I can say for now is that this book is interesting to read, written well, concise, and got some ideas that can be tried.

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## DreamScience

What my intention was, is to tell the people that there *is* more research data available out there although it is not much. If anyone is interested to try it, he should have all information at hand.
Personally I don't think that it is a good strategy to withhold this information.

I for myself can tell you, that I had some good experiences with his approach, not _that_ good as he describes it, but the direction is the right one. If someone is interested and can speak German, there is a big Thread here:
http://37351.rapidforum.com/topic=101272358916

Greetings,

DS

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## dodobird

Yea, I see what you mean, but I was not withholding information from the forum because Yuschak approach has already been mentioned on the forum at least twice, and he also posted himself, and anyway, when I write about an experiment, I don't think there is a need to everything that I ever heard about it, but instead to focus on whats relevant to the experiment report, for example I did not mention anything about the brilliantdreams pill, or the dreamamin pill, or the LaBerge patent that all suggest the same approach, nor did I explain anything about the physiological reason behind the approach. 
This is just a preliminary report of an experiment, which may not even work, so there is no need to supply more background information at this stage unless I am asked about it.

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## dodobird

To see the German forum page suggeted by DreamScience, you can use this link ( google translation )

http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools

It's quite funny to read the translation. DreamScience, does the GAME word in this translation supposed to be WILD?

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## Tornado Joe

Hey all,

I've been using Galantamine for almost a year now - not every night or anything like that though - so I figured I'd join the thread.

I first heard of the pill when I attended LaBerge's dreamcamp in Hawaii. Those who volunteered to be part of the experiment would take a pill to be used during the WBTB process for three nights. Of the three pills, one was a placebo. The other two were different dosage pills of galantamine (4mg and 8mg). We then recorded our results over the three nights. For me, the results showed the galantamine had an effect in my dream vividness and very possibly lucidity as well. And I only say possibly because at the time I was also testing the NovaDreamer so it's hard to tell which had more of an effect.

Anyway, one key thing to consider with Galantamine is the time when you ingest it. For a while it had been hit or miss. However, by chance, I found myself waking up at around 4am for about a week straight (no supplements ingested). Kind of pissed off about it, I figured "eh, might as well pop a Galantamine pill and see what happens". Normally I wouldn't do this, as I knew I'd have to be up in just two hours.  However, the results were tremendous -- TWO WILDs and vivid non-lucids.

I thought this might have been luck. However, the following two occasions in which I had awoken at around 4am and took the supplements, I was succesfull again! (Just this morning I woke up around 3:40am, took a G pill and yet again, a lucid).

So, I think there is timming involved as well when taking ANY supplement. Obviously, the earlier in the morning, the longer the REM periods. So I'm sure that was a factor. However, knowing how long it takes a supplement to hit your system is important in order to try and sync it up to your REM periods.

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## dodobird

Hmm google only translated the first 3 posts in the page, and it works much better with the AltaVisa translation. To use it go to: http://babelfish.altavista.com/ and paste this address: http://37351.rapidforum.com/topic=101272358916 in the "Translate a Web page" field, Select German to English, and press Translate.

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## dodobird

Third WILD attempt with Galantamine + choline: *Success*.
Dose: Galantamine 4mg, choline 500mg.
Time: 4.5 hours after going to sleep I woke up, stayed up from about 15 minutes, and went back to bed.
Report: I was doing the WILD very badly: I couldn't relax, couldn't concentrate, I kept thinking about things in life that bother me, and I moved from time to time. All the things that suppose to ruin a WILD attempt. 
Even so, after about 30-40 minutes, I felt like I was being swept away, and boom, I was in a lucid dream. The dream was long, stable, clear, and very simple. I was in a large building with people. There wasn't any story, and there wasn't any depth, anything strange about the surrounding or anything very interesting. Like my previous attempt, the dream was *a lot less interesting* than all my non-lucids, and all my DILD's.
But I made the dream interesting myself by doing lots of stuff: jumping from hight windows, sex ( twice ), trying to meditate, trying to read, and something else that I'm too embarressed to say.
Side Effects: This time I felt no side effects at all when I got up in the morning. This could be because of 2 things: 
1. I woke late ( because I didn't have work today ), so I slept through most of the side effects that may have been there. 
2. Right After I woke from the dream, I took Peracetam. This is another thing I got from Yuschak's book: Peracetam as a way to counter the effect of Galantamine.
The difference in side effects from my previous attempt was *huge*.

Conclusion: From these attempts I believe that these supplements are very effective. It's not just that I succeeded in the WILD, and had long, stable dreams, but I also I take into account the fact that I'm a novice in WILD, and that in these particular cases I was doing the WILD attempt very awkwardly. But this are just 2 successful attempts, and I'm still not sure.

I will repeat the exact same experiment a few times longer, once or twice a week, and I will report in this thread.

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## lucidus

Yes, dodobird,

from my experience these supplements are really _the_  best WILD supplement I know.

I made a series of experiments with Galantamine and Choline myself over the past few weeks. What can I tell you?

I made 10 attempts on 10 nights. Got lucid on every one of them. 
40 % those were WILDs, the rest DILDs.

WILDing into a lucid dream is incredibly easy for me with these supplements.
I usually sleep less than 5 hours, take the supplements and make a WBTB for an hour. Then I stay in bed on my back for 15 minutes to get calm. After that  I roll on my right side and in most cases only wait for the effects to start. Normally I will not have to wait very long.

I got motivated by reading Thomas Yuschak's book. Side effects are only very limited, even with 8 mg Galantamine. But I have to stress that I only make a new try after at least 2 nights off.

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## Moonbeam

I did a little research on galantamine a while back and thought that I read that it didn't get into the central nervous system when taken orally.  From your experiences, that seems not to be true.

Thanks for sharing this.  I'll have to get that book.

B6 used to work for me, but it quit working.  It definitely wasn't a placebo effect, but it just doesn't seem to work anymore.

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## lucidus

> I did a little research on galantamine a while back and thought that I read that it didn't get into the central nervous system when taken orally.  From your experiences, that seems not to be true.



Galantamine is sold here as a prescription medicine (to treat Alzheimer's desease). It is taken orally so you can assume that it is effective when used in that way.

The key to success with Galantamine lies in the way that you take it: just shortly before you start your WILD attempt (maybe an hour or so is fine). And combine it with Choline. That will build up enough acetylcholine to start a REM phase eventually (provided you have acetyl also, but you can make that sure by taking Vitamin B5). 

Additionaly you benefit from the stimulation of the nicotinic receptors, which is something Galantamine also does. I experimented with nicotine patches in the past, but would estimate that Galantamine (used in this way) is even a bit more effective. 

It is really astonishing how good the Galantamine/Choline combination works for me. It's just like preparing to have a WILD night, sleeping a few hours of good and deep sleep, than WBTB, taking the supplements, going back to bed and kind of just wait for the vibrations (or whatever you're experiencing) to start your lucid dream.





> B6 used to work for me, but it quit working.  It definitely wasn't a placebo effect, but it just doesn't seem to work anymore.



Yeah, for me too. But I used it on rare occasions only (maybe once every few weeks) so I did not really experience tolerance.

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## Tornado Joe

FYI, I took my Galantamine supplement last night (which includes 200mg of choline) and yet again it worked. I have noticed that there are occaisions which the supplement will have the effect of keeping me awake shortly after taking it - and I was convinced this was one of those occasions. However, after eventually falling asleep I experienced one memorable case of hypnopompia (didn't result in WILD) and then, eventually, a DILD in which I recognized my dreamsign.

Since the Galantamine and Choline come in the same pill, I'm curious as to whether bumping up the Choline intake (in a separate pill) will make a difference. Also, the pill includes B5 (but I take 100mg of B6 every night already) - anyone know of any clearly defined difference in the effect each is responsible for?

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## lucidus

Vitamin B5 will aid in acetylcholine synthesis, so this is what we need here (high acetylcholine levels during sleep = REM, dreaming)

Vitamin B6 is AFAIK mainly used in the L-tryptophane/5-HTP/serotonin/melatonin conversion chain, so it's a different approach.

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## Moonbeam

Thanks for the info, lucidus.  I don't know if it exactly tolerance that I developed from the B6--it just never works anymore, no matter how long  I wait in between doses.  Maybe permanent tolerance, darn.

Have you tried the chantix?  If so, how does that compare?

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## lucidus

No, I have never tried chantix.

I think I will stay away from synthetic substances..

BTW, I made another attempt with galantamine/cholin and got lucid again (als usual  ::D: ) This time I even orgasmed in the lucid dream without awakening. 

As I read Yuschak's book I think I will now extend the "primary trigger" by other substances (already experimented a bit). 
Yohimbine will be on my list again. Also the combination galantamine and nicotine can be quite powerful.

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## dodobird

Side effects update: a couple of days after my third attempt, I had nasty intestine crumps for a day, which resided over several more days. I will have to check if these return after further attempts to determine if they are related to the supplements.

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## dodobird

Forth WILD attempt with Galantamine + choline: Partial success.

This time in addition to 4mg Galantamine and 500 mg choline when doing WBTB, I took 100mg of 5-HTP at bed-time. Yuschak suggests taking it as both to improve the sleep quality on nights that you take Galantamine ( because then you will have good deep sleep the first half of the night to compensate for the extended REM sleep the caused by the Galantamine and choline ), and also because it causes an REM rebound the second half of the night.
For me this didn't work well on this attempt. When I woke for the WBTB, I was very refreshed and afterwards during the WILD attempt I couldn't fall asleep. I was just not sleepy enough. I managed to get to the stage of the vibrations many times, I'd say about 10 times, but I couldn't cross over to the dream state.
Galantamine and choline are also stimulants, so after sometime it became even harder to fall asleep, and I struggled like this until the morning. However, just before I gave up and got up, I did managed to cross through the HI transition, and into a lucid dream. Unfortunately the dream was very unstable and I woke after about 20 seconds.
Again I took 3200mg Peracetam after I woke up to counter the Galantamine, and I don't feel any Galantamine 'hang-over'.

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## Moonbeam

Mine's supposed to come tomorrow.  I don't like the sound of "nasty intestinal crumps";  :Sad:  hopefully I will not experience that.

I'll let you know how it works for me in a few days.  Maybe I'll start on Friday in case it fries my brain or something, I'll have a couple days to recover.

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## lucidus

> Mine's supposed to come tomorrow.  I don't like the sound of "nasty intestinal crumps";  hopefully I will not experience that.




Don't worry, this is only possible, but does not have to happen at all.

I've never had those side effects, not even nausea which is reported very often while using cholinergic substances.

If you read Yuschak's book Moonbeam, I suggest you really start with galantamine and choline alone, 
don't add other substances (like alpha GPC) at the beginning. And use them after some hours of deep sleep in a WBTB.

The success rate me and other users are experiencing is just remarkable (we do a couple of experiments at the moment).
This just sounds like a commercial ..lol.. , but it is none :p

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## dodobird

> Mine's supposed to come tomorrow.  I don't like the sound of "nasty intestinal crumps";  hopefully I will not experience that.
> 
> I'll let you know how it works for me in a few days.  Maybe I'll start on Friday in case it fries my brain or something, I'll have a couple days to recover.



well this time I didn't get the crumps, nor in the previous attempts, so I think it was not related to the supplements. Probably they were just because I ate too much the following day. I suggest you take Peracetam in the morning after, because I felt some annoying hangover afterwards when I didn't take it.

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## Moonbeam

Thanks for the advice, guys. I just got Yushack's book last night, and I read about the Peracetam.  I'll look for that today.  

Lucidus, I'll start like that--I got the 8 mg galantamine/choline/B5.  Please let us know what kind of experiments you are doing and the results! :smiley:

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## lucidus

@Moonbeam: galantamine/choline/B5 seems to be an ideal combination.

I mainly use this myself, sometimes also combined with alpha-GPC (however this is not my favorite) or with yohimbine. 
I even combined it with nicotine lately, but I do not want to do this very often.

DreamScience mentioned a link to a forum above, that's where you can also find my reports. But it is in german language.

I did another try today and got lucid again (WILD). Out of 13 attempts over the past weeks I only failed once. Even then I got lucid for a millisecond but awoke shortly after that.  At the other occasions I sometimes had quite long lasting LDs, sometimes even too long to remember all of it.

@dodobird: I started taking piracetam lately. Taken immediately after the lucid dream it really seems to compensate some "over-stimulation" during the day after taking galantamine/choline. It makes me very quiet, with an "inner peace" and concentrated.

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## Moonbeam

Thanks; I was going to ask you about yohimbine.  I have to get some piracetam, sounds like.

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## der'morat'oneiro

If you want to really boost your LD intensity, apply a 7mg (low dose)Nicoderm patch to your shoulder when you take your GalantaMind (assuming you are not a smoker). But don't get addicted. Nicotine is a potent dream enhancer, but not real good for you.

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## Tornado Joe

*OMG- Hey Paul!!* I think that's ME in your avatar at LaBerge's Dreamcamp!! In white shirt next to girl in center (pink)!! LOL! 

I never noticed you on here before -*Welcome to Dreamviews* man!

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## Spamtek

Do you guys suspect that simple choline supplementation might render some results, or is neurotypical acetycholinesterase (which breaks down excess Ach) activity too robust to be able to expect elevated Ach levels just from a 500mg+ lecithin supplement?  I was wikisleuthing earlier today and got it in my head that choline is an important precursor for Ach which is important in dreaming, and then I was grocery shopping later on and saw the damn pill bottle there in the shop and took the plunge right then and there.  I looked up threads about choline use after coming back with it; I'd never heard of galantamine before... not that it would have mattered.  Commissaries don't carry galantamine.

I'll jam up the choline tonight, probably as I go to sleep rather than during a WBTB... if anything happens I'll be sure to report.

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## lucidus

> Do you guys suspect that simple choline supplementation might render some results
> ...
> I'll jam up the choline tonight, probably as I go to sleep rather than during a WBTB... if anything happens I'll be sure to report.



I would really suggest taking choline during the WBTB. For two reasons:

1. If it works, you will start having REM too early and will skip your precious deep sleep phases. Very likely you will feel energy deprived the next day.

2. If you aim for the morning REM phases, there will be only very little choline left then. AFAIK it will not stay that long in your system. You would have to use other choline supplements like alpha-GPC or CDP-choline probably. 



But to answer your question:
Yes, I could imagine that choline alone could help. But galantamine is a bit more sophisticated since it builds up ACh levels more quickly (by preventing  breaking down ACh) and what is also very important:
galantamine stimulates the nicotinic receptors. 

That's a big difference that (in my opinion) makes the difference. I have used other AChE-inhibitors like huperzine. But huperzine lacks this ability to stimulate the nicotinic receptors. So I got far better results out of galantamine.

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## Spamtek

Alright... I'm sour on WBTB (too much time invested, too many exhausting nights, too little success) but I'll try it out tonight regardless with the choline.  Need to give every substance its fair chance to shine.

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## Moonbeam

> If you want to really boost your LD intensity, apply a 7mg (low dose)Nicoderm patch to your shoulder when you take your GalantaMind (assuming you are not a smoker). But don't get addicted. Nicotine is a potent dream enhancer, but not real good for you.



Unfortunately I've gotten tolerant to that too.  Yes, nicotine is very addictive and I realized the gum is kind of nice to chew during the day too, so I think I over-did it.  Figures.  

Hope I haven't decreased my ach receptors too much.  I ordered the piracetam; maybe that will bring them back.

I just realized this may be the cause of my recent dryspell.  It's such a tiny amount tho, much less than a smoker would get.  Do smokers do a lot less dreaming than non-smokers?

----------


## dodobird

Moonbeam, be careful not to take Peracetam together with other supplements ( such as alpha-GPC ) because I read some crazy reports of people that tried such mixes. If you take other supplements at the same time as the Peracetam than google first to make sure there isn't a problem of using them together. 
Another thing: If you think you got tolerance from the nicotin, than it might be a good idea to pospone taking Galantamine for a while, to give the tolerance a chance to subside.

----------


## Spamtek

Well, I WBTB'ed at 3:00 AM last night and popped 1200mg of soy lecithin, but I was retarded and only figured out today that 1200mg soy lecithin = ~150mg bioavailable choline.  Between the slow-release nature of lecithin and the microscopic dose I took it should have been expected that I not have any good results, and behold! I didn't.  All last night was pretty shitty for me, really.

Considering how gradual choline absorption is from lecithin, I'm going to go back to my Plan A and give myself realistic doses over the entire day so I can actually expect to have my Acetylcholine levels at their _maximal_ by the time I get around to late-sleep REM.  I suspect I can prevail over potential insomnia by just not going to sleep until I'm really damn tired.

----------


## Moonbeam

dodobird:
I've got the book, so I will follow the instructions.  Sounds like that piracetam may be a good thing because it makes you smarter too.

Actually I think my antihistamine may have been the problem.  I quit taking it a couple days ago and had a short lucid last night.  Surely the tiny amount of nicotine I'm ingesting can't actually be doing anything; if so, no smoker would ever have a dream.

Anybody know if antihistamines have any adverse effects?

----------


## Moonbeam

::banana:: Double post because this is the next morning!  Wow that stuff works great!  I guess I know it crosses the blood-brain barrier now.  I went to bed about 11:00, woke up at 3:00 (as usual), and took a GalantaMind.  For some reason I didn't really expect anything to happen, I've gotten so used to failing.  Then I lied back down, and I was in an instant WILD.  I could actually feel it going into my brain; it was literally like a shade being pulled up in a dark room and letting a lot of brightness in.  I was in the craziest HI with visual and aural hallucinations.  I was fighting with my partner, a massive physical battle over which side of the bed he was on, but at the same time I could hear his breathing and I knew he was sleeping, and I was aware of my own body in SP, and another part of my mind was observing the fight and laughing about how funny it was.  Really amazing.  Then I got out of that scenario and went into a void, where I accomplished the tasks of the month, and started on something else that I've been wanting to do.  It was a very long, drawn out lucid; I woke up again at 4:30.  I got up for a minute, then I tried to go back to sleep, but I was too excited and it took me a long time and just as I went back to sleep again, the alarm woke me up.  I think that dream might have turned into a lucid too, because it involved DV members.  I feel fine this morning, like I got plenty of sleep, and no side effects.

Thanks a lot for all of your help!  I hope that keeps working!  I don't have the piracetame yet; I know I can't take the galantamine again tonight either so I'll have to wait a couple days.  Too bad; I'm tempted to try, but I guess I'll wait.

----------


## SKA

Galantamine doesn't sound like I coduld easily obtain it and it seems to have lots of side effects. Where might I find Choline though?

And if Choline affects sleep and dreams then would anyone know what anti-cholinergic substances would do to dreams?

----------


## lucidus

> Galantamine doesn't sound like I coduld easily obtain it and it seems to have lots of side effects. Where might I find Choline though?



Choline is usually easy to get, here in Germany we can even get it in the local pharmacy (even though it's cheaper to order it on the internet). With galantamine we have problems however, since it is only available by prescription here and we have to order it from another EU country  ::D: 

Personally I wouldn't worry too much about side effects. If you use it in very moderate doses like 8 mg and also only once or twice a week you will probably not really experience any problems at all.





> And if Choline affects sleep and dreams then would anyone know what anti-cholinergic substances would do to dreams?



Thats quite an interesting question! AFAIK anticholinergics can lead to very realistic dreams or even "full blown" hallucinations while awake. I read some reports where people where taking anticholinergic substances and were lucid almost all night. But it is a very dangerous thing to do.

But why do high acetylcholine levels enable REM and also the opposite (taking an anticholinergic) does?

That question is AFAIK unanswered yet.
One theory of an author (James Kent) who will probably present quite an interesting book (if it is finished some day  :wink2: ) is that because of the lack of ACh the body is trying to counteract the effect. 

I quote from  http://www.tripzine.com/pit/





> If uptake is critically blocked the body may in turn _totally freak out_ and begin pumping acetylcholine like mad, flooding the brain and body with as much as it can produce. And then, once the anticholinergic agent begins to metabolize... _Wham!_ Acetylcholine smashes into the system like a runaway truck and transports the user seamlessly and instantaneously into a fully interactive waking dream-space.

----------


## Spamtek

> One theory of an author (James Kent) who will probably present quite an interesting book (if it is finished some day ) is that because of the lack of ACh the body is trying to counteract the effect.



This always confused the hell out of me, like when bodybuilders supplement with testosterone which causes their own body to stop producing it to try and reach normal levels which somehow leads them to develop symptoms of testosterone deficit (shrunken junk, anyone?) even though they're still getting more than enough.  You supplement with a chemical and you get a lot of it, you limit a chemical and your body ramps into overproduction to compensate and you get a lot of it.  I know the mechanism's never that simple but this is maddeningly how it seems to go a lot of the time.

I ingested ~1000mg of supplemental choline above and beyond what I get in my diet over the course of yesterday and nothing really happened, although I did find the willpower to crawl my disgusting self out of bed at 3:00 AM to try and WILD like I've been failing to properly do the past couple days (wake up, say I'm going to WILD, and then just roll over and fall back asleep).  Apparently it takes choline dosages in the 5+ grams/day range to start expecting any ill side effects and choline is otherwise good for you regardless, so I'll keep up this daily supplementation and see what comes of it.  It seems to me that choline taken in this way is only converted into acetylcholine when the brain is short of it, which means it shouldn't give me any experiences I haven't had before but should give me those experiences more often by keeping my brain out of being in an ACh deficit... if ever it was in the past.

----------


## Moonbeam

> This always confused the hell out of me, like when bodybuilders supplement with testosterone which causes their own body to stop producing it to try and reach normal levels which somehow leads them to develop symptoms of testosterone deficit (shrunken junk, anyone?)



The testes make testosterone, not the other way around.  When there is excess (from any source), it causes inhibiting feedback from the pituitary gland--since there to much in the body, the testes are told to make less, and they begin to atrophy.  If someone had shrunken testes due to some other cause, then their testosterone would be low, of course--but the first caused the latter in that case.

I'd have to get a book out for the ach question--too lazy now, hopefully someone will beat me to it.

----------


## dodobird

> Double post because this is the next morning!  Wow that stuff works great!  I guess I know it crosses the blood-brain barrier now.  I went to bed about 11:00, woke up at 3:00 (as usual), and took a GalantaMind.  For some reason I didn't really expect anything to happen, I've gotten so used to failing.  Then I lied back down, and I was in an instant WILD.  I could actually feel it going into my brain; it was literally like a shade being pulled up in a dark room and letting a lot of brightness in.  I was in the craziest HI with visual and aural hallucinations.  I was fighting with my partner, a massive physical battle over which side of the bed he was on, but at the same time I could hear his breathing and I knew he was sleeping, and I was aware of my own body in SP, and another part of my mind was observing the fight and laughing about how funny it was.  Really amazing.  Then I got out of that scenario and went into a void, where I accomplished the tasks of the month, and started on something else that I've been wanting to do.  It was a very long, drawn out lucid; I woke up again at 4:30.  I got up for a minute, then I tried to go back to sleep, but I was too excited and it took me a long time and just as I went back to sleep again, the alarm woke me up.  I think that dream might have turned into a lucid too, because it involved DV members.  I feel fine this morning, like I got plenty of sleep, and no side effects.
> 
> Thanks a lot for all of your help!  I hope that keeps working!  I don't have the piracetame yet; I know I can't take the galantamine again tonight either so I'll have to wait a couple days.  Too bad; I'm tempted to try, but I guess I'll wait.




Moonbeam, I'm glad it worked for you. : - )
I wonder, how would you compare this dream to other WILDs you had, in term of stability, control, strangeness, any insights you gained during the dream, vividness, your mood during the dream, or any other differences you may have noticed.

----------


## dodobird

> It seems to me that choline taken in this way is only converted into acetylcholine when the brain is short of it, which means it shouldn't give me any experiences I haven't had before but should give me those experiences more often by keeping my brain out of being in an ACh deficit... if ever it was in the past.



It may be that the choline you take is converted to acetylcholine and increase it's level, but the body detects the increase and breaks the acetylcholine and reduce it to normal levels. I think in any case this is the logic behind using galantamine which prevents this from happening.

----------


## SKA

Well then maybe that's why The Flower worked so well giving me vivid nightmare-like dreams. The flower contains anticholinergic substances.
I would never be so foolish to even want to break through to delirious states; I might as well jump infront of a freighttrain right away.

Thusfar I have only tried drinking the witchflower's tea close before bed with good results and in very carefull, fearfull small amounts. Maybe my brain was trying to compensate for the inhibited acetylcholine and caused a sort of "Acetylcholine Rebound".

Does anyone know how much time the body/brain takes to compensate low acetylcholine levels? Maybe I should try and take the Tea earlier in the day or later in a WBTB way for it to take full effect while I'm dreaming.

----------


## Moonbeam

> Moonbeam, I'm glad it worked for you. : - )
> I wonder, how would you compare this dream to other WILDs you had, in term of stability, control, strangeness, any insights you gained during the dream, vividness, your mood during the dream, or any other differences you may have noticed.



No comparison.  I really don't even have much to compare it to, since I have only had one or two WILD's since first starting, and they really weren't that great.  This was one of the most bizarre non-hallucinogen induced experiences I have ever had.  I was aware of my body and surroundings (my elbow was pressed into my leg, and it was kind of uncomfortable, but I was in SP so I didn't move it), I was aware of my dream which was like a hallucination, and at a third level I was aware of how strange it all was, with my normal conscious mind.  I was a little afraid I  had induced some sort of flash-back and I'd wake up tripping, but I entered a regular lucid dream, losing the awareness of my body, and then when I woke from that I felt great; well-rested, no residual drugged feelings at all that I had been worried about.  I was kind of excited so I stayed awake for while, then I went back to sleep just in time to get woken up by the alarm.  I felt really good all day, lots of energy.

I couln't resist--I knew I wasn't supposed to do it, but I took another one at 3:00 this morning.  Really crazy dreams, but no lucid.  I'll wait a few days now so it will work again, I hope.  The bottle says to work up to taking three a day if you are using it to make you smarter, so I guess I can use it as often as I can get it to work.  I'll at least wait another day before I use it again.

----------


## SKA

As soon as I find Choline I will give it a try. The Galantamine can wait untill I figured out about it's legal status and OTC-availability.

Also I wonder what would happen to the nature of my Dreams if I took Choline with a Cup of tea steeped from a small amount of the Anti-Cholinergic Flower.

----------


## DreamScience

It's nice to see that there is finaly an increasing interest in Yuschaks techniques, which seem to be the most promising at the moment.

I'll just let you know that you can ask him specific or more complex questions in his own forum at http://www.advancedld.com/Question_Answer_Board.html.





> The Galantamine can wait untill I figured out about it's legal status and OTC-availability.



Galantamine seems to be the most important substance at all, so it would be not so wise to skip it. Choline can only serve as a starting point and helps the Galantamine to do its job.

Regards,

DS

----------


## Spamtek

So I've been going through the stages of acceptance for Galantamine one by one (denial: I don't need that to make me lucid; rage: It's not fair!  I should be able to get them naturally!; confusion: I don't know what to think any more; acceptance: let's give it a shot) like I do with all oneirogenic drugs or supplements I eventually end up taking.  What I'm most worried about is the possibility for desensitization of the Ach system with the use of these supplements - I haven't specifically read this anywhere (except maybe in Moonbeam's post) but I can't quite envision all the different effect and synergies between all of these different substances, which leaves room for doubt in my mind... and I won't take a substance if I doubt its safety and efficacy, at least not anymore.  Some questions:

Galantamine is an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor that _also_ appears to activate nicotinic acetylcholine receptors on its own.  What is special about activation of the nicotinic ACh receptors, exactly?  What, qualitatively, does galantamine do to them above and beyond what the increased amount of ACh will do to them, and why is that so important?





> Hope I haven't decreased my ach receptors too much.



This is in reference to nicotine (which obviously stimulates nAChR).  Wikipedia seems to say (in a reference to nicotine's use for lucid dreaming, no less) that chronic use of nicotine _will_ desensitize nAChRs, but  I think I've read a study about Galantamine finding just the opposite - that Galantamine increases the density of those receptors - so what's the difference between the two that makes chronic administration of Galantamine, if not a net benefit, at least safe for acetylcholine receptor sensitivity?

Piracetam also seems to be related to increasing AChR receptor density and sensitivity, but by Wikipedia's watch apparently works on sensitizing the muscarinic receptors, rather than nicotinic.  As far as I understand it, you take piracetam directly after a lucid dream to help flush out extra ACh which is good for LDing but not so good for normal everyday function, right?

----------


## LucidAlex

I tried to get galantamine, but apparantly in America it is perscription only... I did get a B-complex which has 100 mg of choline in it, though.

----------


## LucidAlex

Ah, and here is some information on galantamine... http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...r/a699058.html

----------


## Tornado Joe

> I tried to get galantamine, but apparantly in America it is perscription only



By America, you mean USA, or other parts of the continent? Because it *is* available in the US w/o perscription. Where do you think most of us got it? I can send you link to websites that sell it.

----------


## LucidAlex

> By America, you mean USA, or other parts of the continent? Because it *is* available in the US w/o perscription. Where do you think most of us got it? I can send you link to websites that sell it.



I meant US, sorry for the confusion. But where can you get it w/o perscription here in the USA? Is it only off the web? And any links you have would be helpful, thanks.

----------


## Tornado Joe

Well it's easier to find online, I suppose. But it is currently over-the-counter. It's just not used for any common ailments so there's really no market for it in stores. 

Might have to do some asking around - but it's likely you'll have to go to somekind of specialty place or nutrition center (kind of like a GNC) and ask for "memory enhancers". Galantamine is used mostly for that so you might find it in one of those products.

----------


## LucidAlex

> Well it's easier to find online, I suppose. But it is currently over-the-counter. It's just not used for any common ailments so there's really no market for it in stores. 
> 
> Might have to do some asking around - but it's likely you'll have to go to somekind of specialty place or nutrition center (kind of like a GNC) and ask for "memory enhancers". Galantamine is used mostly for that so you might find it in one of those products.



It is OTC? Ok. Because I went to the pharmacy at Wegmans, and they said you can find it *only* as a perscription...
Thanks!

-Alex

----------


## Tornado Joe

Ah, maybe galantamine by itself -like if you wanted higher dosages. But the stuff I buy comes with B5 and choline as well - not pure galantamine.

A heads up to everyone in here regarding the galantamine used for LDing: we need to kind of keep this whole thing from getting *too* popular - the more companies that start making these "Lucid Dreaming" pills and making a profit, the more the FDA will start looking into linning their own pockets with the profits and make galantamine unavailable. Just something to keep in mind.

----------


## Moonbeam

> What I'm most worried about is the possibility for desensitization of the Ach system with the use of these supplements - I haven't specifically read this anywhere (except maybe in Moonbeam's post)



I got that from Yushak's book; the chapter on galantamine says:
_"Notice that galantamine remains in your system for about 48 hours.  This means that your acetylcholine levels are boosted well beyond the time you set aside for lucid dreaming.  This can lead to tolerance and desensitization issues."_





> As far as I understand it, you take piracetam directly after a lucid dream to help flush out extra ACh which is good for LDing but not so good for normal everyday function, right?



The book says:  "_Piracetam reduces desensitization of the ach receptors_"; it doesn't really say how it does that (later in the book he says that it doesn't break ach down, it uses it form memories); and it goes on to say: "_Piracetam is thought to cause ach to be used up more efficiently and may even increase ach receptor density_."

I haven't validated any of these statements with any other sources, so this is all from Yushak.

----------


## LucidAlex

> Ah, maybe galantamine by itself -like if you wanted higher dosages. But the stuff I buy comes with B5 and choline as well - not pure galantamine.
> 
> 
> A heads up to everyone in here regarding the galantamine used for LDing:we need to kind of keep this whole thing from getting *too* popular - the more companies that start making these "Lucid Dreaming" pills and making a profit, the more the FDA will start looking into linning their own pockets with the profits and make galantamine unavailable. Just something to keep in mind.



Oh, what is the stuff you buy called? The mixture of the three things?

-Alex

----------


## Tornado Joe

It's a supplement called "GalantaMind" - available at iherb.com. There's other products out there with the same blend of ingredients, just different names. Some are even labeled "Lucid Dream Pill".  ::rolleyes:: 





> Notice that galantamine remains in your system for about 48 hours.



Maybe, but after what dosage? I mean, I notice that if I take 4mg one night, I get lucid that night but not the following night if I don't take it again. There has to be a dosage associated with the statement. Or at least the LEVEL or percentage of galantamine of what you take that remains in your system. Is that in the book?

----------


## Moonbeam

> Maybe, but after what dosage? I mean, I notice that if I take 4mg one night, I get lucid that night but not the following night if I don't take it again. There has to be a dosage associated with the statement. Or at least the LEVEL or percentage of galantamine of what you take that remains in your system. Is that in the book?



Pharmacokinetics for galantamine:  peak plasma time is 1 hour, and elimination half-life is 7 hours.  He says he usually uses 8 mg.

I got my alpha-GPC and Piracetam today.

----------


## dodobird

> Ah, maybe galantamine by itself -like if you wanted higher dosages. But the stuff I buy comes with B5 and choline as well - not pure galantamine.



I got pure 4mg galantamine capsules from a US located online shop without a problem.

----------


## dodobird

> So I've been going through the stages of acceptance for Galantamine one by one (denial: I don't need that to make me lucid; rage: It's not fair!  I should be able to get them naturally!; confusion: I don't know what to think any more; acceptance: let's give it a shot) like I do with all oneirogenic drugs or supplements I eventually end up taking.  What I'm most worried about is the possibility for desensitization of the Ach system with the use of these supplements - I haven't specifically read this anywhere (except maybe in Moonbeam's post) but I can't quite envision all the different effect and synergies between all of these different substances, which leaves room for doubt in my mind... and I won't take a substance if I doubt its safety and efficacy, at least not anymore.  Some questions:
> 
> Galantamine is an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor that _also_ appears to activate nicotinic acetylcholine receptors on its own.  What is special about activation of the nicotinic ACh receptors, exactly?  What, qualitatively, does galantamine do to them above and beyond what the increased amount of ACh will do to them, and why is that so important?
> 
> This is in reference to nicotine (which obviously stimulates nAChR).  Wikipedia seems to say (in a reference to nicotine's use for lucid dreaming, no less) that chronic use of nicotine _will_ desensitize nAChRs, but  I think I've read a study about Galantamine finding just the opposite - that Galantamine increases the density of those receptors - so what's the difference between the two that makes chronic administration of Galantamine, if not a net benefit, at least safe for acetylcholine receptor sensitivity?
> 
> Piracetam also seems to be related to increasing AChR receptor density and sensitivity, but by Wikipedia's watch apparently works on sensitizing the muscarinic receptors, rather than nicotinic.  As far as I understand it, you take piracetam directly after a lucid dream to help flush out extra ACh which is good for LDing but not so good for normal everyday function, right?



According to the book, you can get desensitization and tolerance if you take too much Galantamine. To avoid that Yushak recommends taking Galantamine every other day ( at max ), and not everyday. As was said, he also recommends taking Peracetam right after you wake up from the dream, and also to occasionally take a few days off Galantamine completely. 
I found that the Peracetam helps reduce the side effects of Galantamine. I seem to be quite sensitive to it, even thought I just take 4mg, and Peracetam does seem to help reduce the side effects.
but if I remember correctly, Yushak doesn't talk about that use of Peracetam in the book ( the reduction of side effects ). For him Galantamine produced very little side effects, so I guess he didn't need it.
As for your question about the nicotinic receptors, I don't remember now, I will look up later what the book says about it.

----------


## Moonbeam

I had another amazing night.  This stuff is unbelievable.  

Here's what happened:  I went to sleep about 10:30, woke up at 1:30, and took the alpha-GPC.  Then I went back to sleep and had a lucid dream.  It started out as a low-level lucid, but at some point I become much more aware.  I had been enjoying myself with a DC, but I left to do a task that I have been trying to do for a while.  I didn't completely succeed--I got scared and woke up, about 2:30.

At 2:30, I took the GalantaMind.  I was little worked up by the previous dream, and it took a few minutes to settle down.  Then I tried to WILD, but I went quickly into a lucid dream without any of the stages of WILD.  Then I had the longest series of false awakenings and scene shifts I have ever had; all the while remaining (or regaining) a high level of lucidity.  I remember thinking at one point that I didn't even really know what lucid dreaming was until now, it was so incredible.  It was so intense, it was scary.  I accomplishd my tasks after what seemd an extremely long time with a lot of effort.  I woke up about 4:30, again totally clear-headed and feeling fine.  Then I took the piracetam.

The only side-effects I had were some calf-muscle fasiculations after the alpha-GPC, and a little gastrointestinal change that I'll spare you the details of. It was not anything bad--let's just say it got things moving early in the morning.

I think I could probably have started out with a lower dose; I really didn't expect such incredibly dramatic effects.  It isn't like nicotine, which causes crazy dreams and you may become lucid--it is like instant long lucidity.

 ::bowdown:: Thanks dodobird! for starting this thread--I think I finally found what I've been looking for.  

(Spamtek--at one point I ate a pizza, just because I remembered I should do that; it tasted really good, but it was a strange, stretchy texture.  Then I had an FA, and I was worried for a second that I had eaten some object around me in my sleep.  I looked around and saw a gnawed on phone-book; but then I became lucid again because I realized I don't have a phone book by my bed. One of my eight or so FA's.)

----------


## -Almost

So you guys haven't heard of www.dreamsupplement.com ?
It offers these chemicals and B vitamins plus something else, all packed into one pill. I myself have never tried them, but I'll probably order some soon.

----------


## LucidAlex

The thing at luciddreampill.com has galantamine, b5, choline, and melatonin in it... So it seems that it might work...

----------


## dodobird

> The thing at luciddreampill.com has galantamine, b5, choline, and melatonin in it... So it seems that it might work...



Yushak was asked about these in his forum, and he said that he wouldn't recommend to take melatonin at the same time as the other supplements, because it can reduce the effect. 
I guess the melatonin  helps to fall a sleep, and it was put in this brilliantdreams pill because it is aimed also at people who never even heard about LD, and don't know about WBTB, and WILD.

Anyway the question is, can we trust this hyped brilliantdreams site? I don't know if we can trust the quality of their products.

----------


## Tornado Joe

Hey MBeam, you taking the 4mg or 8mg GalantaMind? I've been playing around with the idea of taking two of my 4mg for a while, just a bit hesitant to do so. However, if it'll give me a nice crazy night like you experienced... (minus the shits, of course :p )

Question about the Peracetam: Is it to be used as a substitute to Galantamine, or to "flush out" the extra ACh? It would seem both, considering how Beamie got her first LD of that night.





> Anyway the question is, can we trust this hyped brilliantdreams site? I don't know if we can trust the quality of their products.



Well, I'm a very "do-it-yourself" kind of person, so I'd much rather get all the ingredients separately and combine them myself if I could. Then there's the question as to whether what's on the bottle is really what's in the pill. Unfortunately, some things are hard to obtain individually.

----------


## dodobird

> Hey MBeam, you taking the 4mg or 8mg GalantaMind? I've been playing around with the idea of taking two of my 4mg for a while, just a bit hesitant to do so. However, if it'll give me a nice crazy night like you experienced... (minus the shits, of course :p )
> 
> Question about the Peracetam: Is it to be used as a substitute to Galantamine, or to "flush out" the extra ACh? It would seem both, considering how Beamie got her first LD of that night.
> 
> 
> Well, I'm a very "do-it-yourself" kind of person, so I'd much rather get all the ingredients separately and combine them myself if I could. Unfortunately, some things are hard to obtain individually. Then there's the question as to whether what's on the bottle is really what's in the pill.



no MB took the peracetam only after the last LD, to flush out the extra ACh.
peracetam is not supposed to help with dreaming, because it supposed to repress dreams.

----------


## Tornado Joe

> no MB took the peracetam only after the last LD, to flush out the extra ACh.



But it sounds like it was the first thing she took:




> Here's what happened: I went to sleep about 10:30, woke up at 1:30, and took the alpha-GPC. Then I went back to sleep and had a lucid dream.



It would sort of make sense if she took it first, since she quoted reading that _"Piracetam is thought to cause ach to be used up more efficiently and may even increase ach receptor density."_

Maybe it used up whatever ACh she had at the onset of sleep - then taking the Galantamine later on "re-stocked" her supply. Or are Alpha-GPC and Peracetam two totally different things (as far as function)?

----------


## Spamtek

> Or are Alpha-GPC and Peracetam two totally different things?



Yeah man, Alpha-GPC is supposed to be one of the more effective cholinergic supplements out there.  I'm not certain about all differences, but alpha-GPC is quick to cross the blood-brain barrier unlike a lot of other supplements.  I'm a little unclear on this too, because that makes it sound as if Alpha-GPC itself should raise the Ach supply in the brain and lead to more lucids by itself, unlike other cholinergics that stay in the blood like lecithin.  Maybe that's why she had that first minor lucid after taking the GPC... anyways, I'm still trying to wrap my head around all the different sorts of cholinergics and which are best/worst in different situations.

MB: Honestly, I find most pizzas so unbelievably disgusting that a phonebook is probably a fairly accurate taste analogy for them.  Way to draw the association!

----------


## dodobird

> But it sounds like it was the first thing she took:
> 
> 
> It would sort of make sense if she took it first, since she quoted reading that _"Piracetam is thought to cause ach to be used up more efficiently and may even increase ach receptor density."_
> 
> Maybe it used up whatever ACh she had at the onset of sleep - then taking the Galantamine later on "re-stocked" her supply. Or are Alpha-GPC and Peracetam two totally different things (as far as function)?



yes Alpha-GPC and Peracetam are comepletly different.
Alpha-GPC is used as a delayed  ACh booster

----------


## Moonbeam

T Joe, I'm taking the 8mg dose.  I think I could have started with the 4, but oh well; can't complain.  And the GI reaction wasn't bad at at all; just speeded things up a little.  

The first night I just took the Galantamind, which worked well for a WILD.  The second time I took the alpha-GPC and the Galantamind, with the Piracetam the next morning.  Piracetam is suposed to conteract the desensitization when using cholinergic substances, if taken afterwards.  Luckily it is a "smart drug", without major side effects.  It inhibits lucid dreaming if used at the wrong time.   Yushack says to take it as soon as you are done lucid dreaming.  

The alpha-GPC caused a DILD on its own.  Then when I took the GalantaMind on top of it a couple hours later I had the longest, trippiest LD's ever.  

I love these drugs that cause lucid dreams, and have side effects of making you get smarter, lose weight, and increase regularity.  This is too good, I must be missing something here.  I think we should buy stock.

----------


## lucidus

Alpha-GPC is considered a "trigger" by Yuschak, so it can even lead to an LD by itself. He thinks that combining it with the other trigger combination Galantamine+Choline works synergistically.

Alpha-GPC is able to cross the BBB, but the time to reach peak plasma levels would be 3h, which is longer than Choline (1h).

Considering Galantamine dosage, I also found out that 8 mg seems to be the ideal dose for me. I tried 12 mg once, but it is really not neccessary.

----------


## Moonbeam

> Alpha-GPC is considered a "trigger" by Yuschak, so it can even lead to an LD by itself. He thinks that combining it with the other trigger combination Galantamine+Choline works synergistically.



Yes that seems to be the case--I had a plain lucid with the alpha-GPC alone, and a big wild one with both of them.





> Alpha-GPC is able to cross the BBB, but the time to reach peak plasma levels would be 3h, which is longer than Choline (1h).



I just got lucky the first time, because I woke up once and took the alpha-GPC, then woke up a couple hours later and took the galantamine.  I did that again last night; I didn't get lucid after the GPC this time (actually I may have been, but it was short and I don't remember it well), but I did have vivid dreams; then I got lucid after the galantamine.





> Considering Galantamine dosage, I also found out that 8 mg seems to be the ideal dose for me. I tried 12 mg once, but it is really not neccessary.



I wouldn't think so, unless you are really big or something.  I was thinking I really could have used th 4mg; when I run out of this I may try that.  I could always take two if it doesn't work.

Lucidus, I assume you have had really good experiences with this like I have.  How long have you been taking it?  How often?  Any side effects from long-term use?  Do you use piracetam?  Do you combine the GPC with the galantamine?  Anything else?  Have you tried yohimbine? I was interested in that, but I know it has side effects, and after galantamine worked so well I probably won't try that.

Thanks for your help.

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## Spamtek

Just for the record, has anyone yet tried this combo and _not_ had awesome, immediate results?  The track record for this chemical cocktail seems too good to be true.

I put in an order for galantamine and a bulk tub of piracetam (which apparently tastes like dog ass).  Half of me wants to wait until August to try, as some sort of symbolic last chance to make my conscious self make itself lucid without crutches... but the other half of me knows I'll be trying it out the first night I get it regardless.  I don't have alpha-GPC for a cholinergic but gram-for-gram alpha-GPC costs more than _solid gold_ so I'll just hang with my lecithin for now.

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## dodobird

> I don't have alpha-GPC for a cholinergic but gram-for-gram alpha-GPC costs more than _solid gold_ so I'll just hang with my lecithin for now.



but choline bitartrate and choline citrate are cheap

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## Tornado Joe

> Just for the record, has anyone yet tried this combo and not had awesome, immediate results?



Imediate results seem to be pretty consistent. However, I don't think it's a "sure thing" every time. I've used Galantamine for a year (on and off) and had I become lucid each time I'd be a freakin lucid master by now (just this morning I took 4mg Galantamine and it did nothing but make me toss and turn for about an hour then have weird dreams - no lucids.

BUT, I can say the vividness and recall seems to be consistently present, and that can lead to lucidity.

I don't think anyone here is saying these drugs/supplements are "lucid dreaming pills" - like some market it to be on those sites. There's still a good deal of incorporating the traditional methods (dream journal, MILD, MILD, WBTB, RCs, etc).

Galantamine, Choline, GPC, Piracetam, etc are all helpful in setting the stage for you to become lucid. It's like giving you the ingredients to make spaghetti: it provides the boiling water, pasta and sauce - but it's still up to you to mix it all together.(sorry, it's 9am and I'm a bit hungry already  ::|:  )

----------


## Spamtek

> but choline bitartrate and choline citrate are cheap



 Yes, but lecithin is cheaper still, I already have some of lecithin, and from my own study I think that lecithin supplementation is more effective than choline salts.  It seems that neither choline salts or lecithin cross the blood-brain barrier and are only selectively absorbed into the brain when there's a shortage of acetylcholine there.  Lecithin takes a little longer to get into the bloodstream, but when it does choline levels there stay far more elevated for far longer than salts.  It seems Yuschak's reasoning for advocating salts over other supplements is the relatively faster absorption time (30 minutes versus 1 hour for lecithin) which I guess makes sense if you're working in a relatively small time frame with which to hit for a lucid (2-3 hours)...  So I don't know if that half-hour difference in peak plasma levels is really such a big deal or not.  Plus lecithin has staying power well beyond the salts, which might produce unwanted side effects with the galantamine in isolation but I've ordered piracetam half as a counterbalance like Yuschak suggests and half as a nootropic, and as a nootropic I want to have elevated choline levels beyond my lucid dreaming attempt.  But both of these (salts and lecithin) only work while brain ACh levels are lacking, which is why Alpha-GPC is suggested since it crosses the blood-brain barrier and guarantees increase ACh production.  But I am not paying that much money for alpha-GPC... not yet.  I try to be a frugal dreamer; I'll work with what I have for now.

I'm getting my info from  here, which seems pretty thorough.

Joe: It's not like I was trying to reassure myself that I'd found the dryspeller's instant salvation or anything, I know I still have to work for it.  But people who get amazing results tend to be more willing to post it than people who get depressingly lackluster results, and I wanted to make sure all the anecdotes weren't skewing my view of the situation.

Looking forward to the FedEx truck...

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## dodobird

Well it's actually good that you are using lecithin because that will give us more experiment data.
Yuschak suggests using the supplements as WILD triggers ( although he says that they also increase the chance of a DILD ). The problem is that you may need to wait a bit longer for the WILD to start because as you said the lecithin starts to work more slowly.
Yuschak suggests going back to bed right after taking the choline and galantamine, and then the WILD should happen 30-40 minutes later.
What you can do if you want to try to achieve WILD using the supplements
is wake up, take the lecithin, wait about 20 minutes, than take the galantamine, and then go to back to bed and wait for the WILD to start.

What Yuschak suggests to do with the alpha-GPC is to take it when doing WBTB like the other supplements.
After a couple of hours the Ach levels starts to drop when the effect of Galantamine+choline starts to wane, at that time the alpha-GPC starts to work and keep the Ach up, so that you can have very long dreams.

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## Moonbeam

My dreams do seem to last an extremely long time.

I got a little complacent, and altho I got lucid last night, I hadn't done my usual concentrating on the task that I wanted to perform, and I forgot my goal and ran around doing a bunch of other things.   Still great, but I think I do need to do the same goal-oriented thinking before hand.  Unless I just want waste time running around having sex, flying, and eating things.

Good luck, Spamtek; hope it works for you.  (I'm sure it will.)

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## sstride

Dear All,

My name is Scot Stride. I began casually investigating supplements in May, 2005 because of some postings I read at The Lucidity Institute (TLI) website. There were a few threads about vitamins, supplements and dreaming. Discussions of Galantamine were banned because at the time LaBerge was experimenting with it at the Kalani Dreamcamp. There were a few mentions of it that got through and those caught my attention. I became more vocal on the forum (and with Keelin) about wanting to discuss Galantamine and they didnt like it. In September 2005, TLI forum went silent for a major revision; it is still down. Following that a select few of us from the TLI forum set up or own private discussion/study group. In October, 2005 we started buying Galantamine from the Life Enhancement company. It is called Galantamind. Since then we have been carrying out numerous private experiments of a lot of different supplements and brands of Galantamine. Tom Yushack joined our study group last summer after becoming aware of Galantamines power. Before the TLI forum went silent Tom was fairly skeptical about supplements in his postings. Since then he has done an about face, and is now one of a few people attempting a scientifically based study of Lucid Dream Supplements (LDS). I wrote the Foreword to his book which is a great fundamental treatise on the LDS method. The research goes on and we are continuing to study various supplements and foods like Chocolate. We figured out the timing aspects of taking the supplements long ago. Taking the LDS 4 hours after going to bed is about optimal. Another aspect weve discovered is to pre-mix the LDS powder into a liquid and drink it. Essentially you dump the capsules powder into the liquid, shake well and drink. The dissolved mixture can be prepared before bedtime, or at WBTB. Its a lot easier to mix it ahead of time, and keep in the refrigerator, if its a liquid that might spoil (milk). This process works more efficiently at getting the chemicals into blood stream and the brain. For those of you who have the LDS, I suggest you give this a try. BTW, the issue with building up a tolerance to AChEIs is real. I took Galantamine for 24 days in a row and toward the end experienced a noticeable decline in its effectiveness. Follow Yushacks advice and take a few days off between attempts; 2 ON, 2 OFF, 2 ON,  is a good schedule.

Happy LDs

Scot Stride

----------


## Tornado Joe

Hi Sot, welcome to the forum.





> There were a few mentions of it that got through and those caught my attention. I became more vocal on the forum (and with Keelin) about wanting to discuss Galantamine and they didn’t like it.



Yup, I remember that they didn't want it mentioned on there. Anytime I used the word in a post there it would get censored on the page. I was told it was mostly due to the reason of which I posted in post #59. However, as you can tell from products which are boldly named "Lucid dream pill", it's really just about who's going to hit the mass market first, now. Cat's pretty much out of the bag.





> Another aspect we’ve discovered is to pre-mix the LDS powder into a liquid and drink it. Essentially you dump the capsules powder into the liquid, shake well and drink.



Never thought of that - does it matter what ratio of water to capsules you mix? I can't imagine that tastes any good, though.

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## DreamScience

Hi sstride,

thanks for your insight. Regarding the supplement shedule, taking it on 2 days and then waiting 2 days, is this only possible in combination with piracetam or also without?

My current shedule is, taking it on one day and then waiting at least three days until another try.

Thanks for the tipp to pre-mix the powder in some sort of liquid. I thought that this would lessen the effectiveness actually  ::wink:: 

Would it be possible to join your discussion/forum in some way?

Regards,

DreamScience

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## Spamtek

sstride: so was the censorship about trying to keep the results of the galantamine experiment "clean" or was TLI trying to formulate (yet another) lucid dreaming pill and stifling you to keep competitors from forming... or both?  I haven't had much contact with TLI but was under the impression that it was a fairly open forum for discussing ideas and advancing lucid knowledge impartially, but what you describe sounds pretty craven.  That was a great post in any case, though; do you know who precisely was the first to theorize or discover galantamine's powers for lucidity?

The tolerance angle is what concerns me the most.  Is this just a question of tolerance to AChEIs themselves, or is prolonged use also given to dampened sensitivity of the ACh system too?  And are any of these effects irreversible?  I don't mind screwing with my biochemistry as long as I know I can quit and not suffer for my indiscretions decades down the road.

----------


## Moonbeam

> The tolerance angle is what concerns me the most. Is this just a question of tolerance to AChEIs themselves, or is prolonged use also given to dampened sensitivity of the ACh system too? And are any of these effects irreversible? I don't mind screwing with my biochemistry as long as I know I can quit and not suffer for my indiscretions decades down the road.



Good question.

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## dodobird

> Dear All,
> Another aspect we’ve discovered is to pre-mix the LDS powder into a liquid and drink it. Essentially you dump the capsules powder into the liquid, shake well and drink. The dissolved mixture can be prepared before bedtime, or at WBTB. It’s a lot easier to mix it ahead of time, and keep in the refrigerator, if it’s a liquid that might spoil (milk). This process works more efficiently at getting the chemicals into blood stream and the brain. For those of you who have the LDS, I suggest you give this a try.



Scot, Welcome to DreamViews!

Some question about the liquid mix:
 What do you recommend for the liquid mix? Should it be something that contains sugar ( to improve the absorption )?
 Did you find that this method has any effect on gastro-intestinal side effects?

----------


## sstride

Dear All,

Here are some answers to your questions...

First, many years ago in 1988 DMAE was subjectively linked to improving the odds of becoming lucid. The exact mechanism was not known, and there were no published follow up studies. Dr. LaBerge did the seminal clinical research on AChEIs and lucid dreaming. As far as I know there was no paper published based on his research, but a US patent was applied for (20040266659). Somehow the dream pill companies picked up on this patent application and capitalized on it.  There are unresolved infringement issues, because the patent was only in the application phase. The new US Patent system is troublesome for small inventors because unscrupulous people can snatch ideas from a patent application before it is granted. In the past, I believe patents were not released if they were not approved. This gave the applicant time to fix the problems and resubmit. With the online system it was easy for these companies to pick up on the dream pill idea and make a product. BTW, Life Enhancement company says nothing connecting Galantamind with dreaming. They sell it to help older people concerned with experiencing memory and/or Alzheimers symptoms; using Galantamine as a preventative measure. 

IMO, it was Dr. LaBerge who discovered the connection between AChEIs and lucid dreaming. Unfortunately, there didnt seem to be enough funding to carry out more in-depth clinical studies, with Dream Camp being a quasi-clinical controlled setting to gather data. So I give LaBerge full credit for the discovery based solely upon what was in his 2004 patent application. Somehow he made the connection between ACh levels, REM sleep and lucidity and then looked for supplements that helped raise ACh levels. The Cholines, B5 and AChEIs fit the bill with Galantamine being the one that works best. Nice piece of neurochemical sleuth work, but the pills cant do it all! Sadly, I think he missed the wave on promoting his brand of a dream pill, if that was ever the intent. As for the dream pill companies, they just want to make a buck and sell all they can. Their websites dont give any practical advice on taking the Galantamine to optimize its effects. In fact, for a while they said to take it at bedtime which is not the right time at all. They were very quick to peddle the pills with little or no studies done to give good advice to the customers. Weve given them lots of practical advice and it seems to fall on blind eyes. 

Second, WBTB (napping) by itself is clinically shown to be the best way to have an LD. It requires no pills, just a commitment to get up after 4 hours of sleep and stay mentally active for an hour or more before going back to sleep. WBTB combined with MILD and a Dream mask is the best traditional method developed. It works for most people who are sincere about their lucid dreaming efforts. But it doesnt work for everyone. The supplements are not a quick fix and like MILD have their own unique requirements. Taking LDS ALONG WITH doing WBTB and MILD improves the odds even more of becoming lucid. Pills or no pills, you must be in the right state of awareness. Now, there are people in our small group who get up, take the LDS, then go back to sleep (very short WBTB, no mental prep work) and then have multiple LDs. That is quite uncommon, but it does happen. Also, the Placebo Effect has been given too much attention, being the catch phrase used by those who like to knock supplements. Double blind studies are always good to carry out, and LaBerge does single blind studies at Dream Camp. It is hard to prove AChEIs effect on lucidity is all Placebo and produces no real neurochemical change in the brainit does! 

Third, the LDS powders are all bitter tasting, but nothing like Calea-Z. If you mix the LDS with a mildly sweet drink (Powerade, OJ or cranberry juice) it covers the bitterness very well. It can cause some stomach discomfort, so eating some food with it helps. I eat a few small cookies or something low in calories, like an energy bar or chocolate pudding cup. Some sugar with the LDS is okay. 



Fourth, the tolerance buildup argument with Galantamine has one detractor, and thats all those people with Alzheimers symptoms who take it (in high dosages). They dont seem to build up a lasting tolerance and benefit from it daily. If they stop taking it their symptoms come back. Maybe its not wise to compare people with healthy cognitive function to those that just want a little more quality of life. For them dreaming is a low priority, especially if youre struggling just to remember your friends names. Normal brains that dont need the extra ACh seem to build up a tolerance to it in the REM dreaming department. During my 24 day trial I saw no impact on my waking state or normal cognitive function. I suggest regularly taking days off from the LDS and using those days for MILD, WBTB, something more traditional, or just normal sleep. 

Lastly, the Racetams do seem to help counteract the AChEIs, but I dont use them as a morning after pill, since I usually take them every day anyway. I do know that they dont work for trying to help with having a lucid dream. Although I did have an LD once with the NovaDreamer and Piracetam combined, but it was probably the mask that did all the work. 

Happy LDs.

Scot Stride

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## dodobird

sstride, thanks for the thorough response.
Report of my 5th attempt: partial success.
4mg galantamine, 500mg choline bitartrate, and a very short WBTB
I was unsuccessful to WILD, and had trouble falling asleep. This could be attributed to some disruptions by mosquitoes and my cats.
I did end up having a DILD, which was unfortunately short, and my dream recall was better than average.
I took peracetam as usual in the morning. I don't think there are any side effects this time.

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## zeroroom

This does not work, at least for me.   I took 8mg of Galantamine and 400mg of Choline and I even added 100 mg of B5 and it had no effect.   :Sad:

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## dodobird

> This does not work, at least for me.   I took 8mg of Galantamine and 400mg of Choline and I even added 100 mg of B5 and it had no effect.



Did you take it when doing WBTB?
Did you try to WILD or DILD?

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## zeroroom

I tried using MILD and I also listened to a subliminal CD

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## dodobird

Try it after 4 hours of sleep, and try to do WILD. MILD/DILD is possible but apparently it works only some of the times.

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## Tornado Joe

There must be some explanation as to why it does not work every time. I took a few days off and last night returned with the following cocktail:

250 choline before bed (10-10:30pm) <-- first time trying extra choline
100mg B6, 4mg GalantaMind (4:30am) <-- GalantaMind contains choline and B5 as well
Results: nothing. I'd say vivid dreams, but I get those even without supplements.

So far I've concluded that this mixture does increase chances by supplying the body with chemicals needed during REM sleep - but withouth some training in tecnhique about lucid dreaming AND a bit of enthusiasm or determination, it is not solely that significant.

I think my next step is to experiment a bit more with what factors may be causing this lucid aid to fail. Stress, meditation, enthusiasm, meals before bedtime, etc.

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## lucidus

> There must be some explanation as to why it does not work every time. I took a few days off and last night returned with the following cocktail:
> 250 choline before bed (10-10:30pm) <-- first time trying extra choline
> 100mg B6, 4mg GalantaMind (4:30am) <-- GalantaMind contains choline and B5 as wellResults: nothing. I'd say vivid dreams, but I get those even without supplements.



Why dont you take the choline during WBTB?
Try 500 mg of choline then and double the dose of galantamine (8 mg).
And dont use B6. AKAIK B6 is needed to convert L-tryptophane to 5-HTP which can then be converted to serotonine which is not what you want for a REM phase.

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## lucidus

> Lucidus, I assume you have had really good experiences with this like I have.  How long have you been taking it?  How often?  Any side effects from long-term use?  Do you use piracetam?  Do you combine the GPC with the galantamine?  Anything else?  Have you tried yohimbine? I was interested in that, but I know it has side effects, and after galantamine worked so well I probably won't try that.



So far I made 14 attempts with substances used in a way as Yuschak suggests. 

I was lucid in all of them, but one attempt I would categorize as "unsuccessful" because I awoke immediately after getting lucid and after that only had a mix of "being awake" or being "semi-lucid". 

However, all other attempts where quite pleasing, a lot of them WILDs.

WILD with these supplements is like: 
taking them in an hour of WBTB, lying down, waiting for a WILD to happen. Almost no real effort is needed, I just try not to fall really asleep (eventually however this must happen) and experience vibrations, noises, forces (which try to pull me out of bed) or whatever.

I have no side-effects which annoy me. Maybe some form of hyperactivity like when drinking too much coffee. But it seems that is a bit easier when I take piracetam after getting up which I started a while ago. I dont use piracetam for other purposes.

Sometimes I combined GPC with Galantamine but it seems that GPC is not the right supplement for me, at least not at night. It seems to be easier to take it at daytime since e.g. DMAE gives me some other problems during daytime. But after a WBTB I dont like GPC, since it seems to keep me in bed for a very long time and does not really improve my LDs.

Yohimbine I tried a few times. So far my best success however was when I used it without Galantamine (I took nicotine instead). But I will experiment with Yohimbine again for sure. My problem here is that it is very very difficult to dose. I only have it as bark and taking 30-50 mg of the bark is just fine. A bit more and I can probably no longer sleep at all. A year ago I made a tea out of two spoons and was wide awake all night!

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## dodobird

> WILD with these supplements is like: 
> taking them in an hour of WBTB, lying down, waiting for a WILD to happen.



Are you waiting an hour when doing WBTB before going to sleep?

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## three and four

Ok, I just got some GalantaMind and am about to try it. I'm pretty excited. I plan to sleep just over four hours, wake, mix & drink 8mg of GM with some liquid, stay awake for an hour, then attempt WILD.

One question: what about tea? I usually have a few gulps of tea after my 4 hrs sleep. Should I also do it in this case? What do you guys do? Thanks!

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## Spamtek

I've been waiting for my supplier to ship out the galantamine (on backorder).  In the meantime I've been using piracetam (2g/day) and lecithin (~10g/day = ~500mg actual choline) in tandem as a general nootropic (have I mentioned piracetam tastes like Satan's armpit?)

This is precisely what Yuschak says shouldn't happen with racetam supplementation, but I have to admit that for the last 3 nights my dreams have been marvelously expansive and exquisitely, artistically vivid.  My recall's been less than perfect for them, unfortunately, but it's definitely a far more pronounced effect than I'm used to unsupplemented.  This is a lot coming from someone who's tried B6, B12, mugwort, silene capensis, calea Z, and mucuna pruriens all as prospective oneirogens with no observable positive effects for any of them.

Could be a fluke, but encouraging nonetheless...

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## lucidus

> Are you waiting an hour when doing WBTB before going to sleep?



Yes, exactly. I wait for my alarm clock after 4 or 4.5 h of sleep.
Then I take the supplements and stay awake (out of bed) for almost an hour. During this time I try to get "day conciousness" as good as I can, but there is of course an urge to go back to sleep (the body is still tired).

After I return to bed, I first try to stay awake for about 15 minutes (on my back) then turn to the right side and just wait for the effects to start. Usually I notice the beginning of a REM phase because at some point I get an erection without any sexual arousal. Very often just shortly after that I experience the usual WILD effects and try to get out of bed again, but this time with my dream body. ::rolleyes::

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## Moonbeam

I didn't know you were supposed to wait an hour.   I've been going right back to bed after the galantamine.  It seems to work really quickly to; either I WILD right away, or go to sleep and start dreaming, which approximately 75% of the time was lucid, the other times very vivid.  I haven't done it that many times, so I don't know if it will continue.

I tried the Calea Z, which worked exactly once, out of approximately 6 disguting times.  Yushak says not too do the same thing over and over, so I was going to try to get another couple mixtures that work to alternate with.  I see the mucana pruriens doesn't always work.

Spamtek, have you ever tried a nicotine patch?

----------


## dodobird

> Yes, exactly. I wait for my alarm clock after 4 or 4.5 h of sleep.
> Then I take the supplements and stay awake (out of bed) for almost an hour. During this time I try to get "day conciousness" as good as I can, but there is of course an urge to go back to sleep (the body is still tired).
> 
> After I return to bed, I first try to stay awake for about 15 minutes (on my back) then turn to the right side and just wait for the effects to start. Usually I notice the beginning of a REM phase because at some point I get an erection without any sexual arousal. Very often just shortly after that I experience the usual WILD effects and try to get out of bed again, but this time with my dream body.







> I didn't know you were supposed to wait an hour.   I've been going right back to bed after the galantamine.  It seems to work really quickly to; either I WILD right away, or go to sleep and start dreaming, which approximately 75% of the time was lucid, the other times very vivid.  I haven't done it that many times, so I don't know if it will continue.



I guess everyone need to experiment to find the best times that will work for them. Like MoonbeamI I went back to bed right after waking and taking the supplements, but I think I needed to wait longer in bed for the dream to start than lucidus did, so maybe it's really the same. 

Next time I try it I will wait longer before going to bed.

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## dodobird

Spamtek mentioned trying mucuna pruriens without success.
mucuna pruriens are suggested by Yusckak to improve dream vividness and control, but he said that it can slightly reduce the chance of becoming lucid.

Anyone else has any experience with this?

Mucuna Pruriens contain L-DOPA, a precorsor to Dopamine that crosses the blood-brain-barrier.

Interestingly, the Broad Bean ( Fava Bean ) (Vicia faba) also contain a lot of L-DOPA.
I found on one site ( I don't know how reliable is this site ) that 100gr of Broad Bean (including pods ) contain 250mg of L-DOPA.

Yuschak say that 400 mg of L-DOPA can cause vivid dreams ( sometimes nightmares )
and 80-200mg can be used for dream control ( which applies if you manage to become lucid ), so eating Broad Beans seem to be enough, and if that is the case you don't need to buy Mucuna Pruriens tablets. 

Anyone has more insights on this issue?

*EDIT: I saw now there was a thread about it, ( http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=35876) where some people said you will go crazy if you take so be careful people.* Still I'm interested to know if anyone have some more info on the subject.

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## Moonbeam

> Spamtek mentioned trying mucuna pruriens without success.
> mucuna pruriens are suggested by Yusckak to improve dream vividness and control, but he said that it can slightly reduce the chance of becoming lucid.



They didn't have it at the store so I thought I'd order it.  I'll do some research first (RE: going insane).

Edit: Further research is needed.

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## three and four

I've just carried out my first experiment with Galantamind. Full account in my Dream Journal:

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...335#post477335

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## Spamtek

Yay, topic's active again.  Glad you found that insanity topic on your own, dodobird, else I was going to hunt it down and link it for you.  It actually surprised me to find mucuna pruriens on Yuschak's LDS list since I came to the conclusion to try it wholly independently of any dream researcher's opinions.  So it's validating to see I wasn't totally off-track, but Alprazolam was pretty hardcore about telling me to stop and I wasn't going to brush off that kind of advice.  Just for clarification, none of the supplements I've tried have done anything for lucidity _or_ general vividness/recall.

Moonbeam, the thought occurred to me to cautiously try a nicotine patch, but I figured I'd save it as a last resort in case I find the galantamine doesn't agree with me.  I have literally never heard a single person say they haven't had phenomenal dreams while dreaming with a patch on, so it's powerful magic in them things.  But then again we're talking nicotine, so the bottom line is I want to keep it out of me if I can help it.

----------


## three and four

Here is the result of my second night on GalantaMind. It's good.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...390#post478390

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## dodobird

> Yay, topic's active again. Glad you found that insanity topic on your own, dodobird, else I was going to hunt it down and link it for you. It actually surprised me to find mucuna pruriens on Yuschak's LDS list since I came to the conclusion to try it wholly independently of any dream researcher's opinions. So it's validating to see I wasn't totally off-track, but Alprazolam was pretty hardcore about telling me to stop and I wasn't going to brush off that kind of advice. Just for clarification, none of the supplements I've tried have done anything for lucidity _or_ general vividness/recall.



I think Alprazolam was exagerating. a mucuna pruriens capsule contains about as much L-DOPA as a meal with broad beans, which are a regular part of my diet. So I think mucuna pruriens should be quite safe.

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## Moonbeam

The galantamine continues to work for me.   An interesting thing about it is that it seems to allow some awareness of the body, more so than usual when I'm dreaming, but keeps me from waking up at the same time.  When I talk, I feel like I'm talking in my sleep, yet it doesn't wake me up like it usually does.

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## Spamtek

I was surprised when the USPS delivered my Galantamine to me yesterday; I wasn't expecting it until at least Monday.  What does this mean?  Experiment report!

*Experiment 1 [2007-07-28]: Failure*
I took 8mg galantamine and 4800mg soy lecithin (anywhere from 200 to 600 mg bioavailable choline) on an empty stomach, after 4-5 hours sleep.  I was remarkably awake for having slept so little (bad sign of things to come), but took my drugs, went to the bathroom, returned and meditated for a few minutes, and hit the lights.  Attempted to WILD for about an hour on my back (used a simple counting method) but didn't notice anything extraordinary about the attempt.  There was a moment near the end where I felt a little floaty (arms felt like they were raised above my head), but it vanished quickly and I've had these moments during normal WILD attempts as well.  I gave up and rolled over to fall asleep normally hoping for a DILD... and rolled over, and rolled over, and tossed and turned, flipped around, and tried to fall asleep for the rest of the 2 hours before my alarm clock was scheduled to wake me, with no success.  I turned the alarm off and chose to sleep in.  I fell into a very strange half-asleep state that was constantly perturbed by family members and pets waking up and stomping around (why I don't like to sleep in), and suffered shallow dreams where my consciousness seemed to be split between different simultaneous scenarios.  There was an experience where I was reading the details of my dream (as if I had written them in a journal with one long neverending page) as I was experiencing the dream itself in another portion of my mind.  Other dreams followed, all of which seemed shallow, trivial, and were poorly remembered.  I got up around 9:00 AM.

Mentally I feel well-rested, but physically the back of my brain feels as if it's been horribly sleep-deprived, with that tight scrunched-up headachey feeling.  I took piracetam as I usually do in the mornings, and feel fine (albeit disappointed) right now.

I was incredibly frustrated during the attempt, seemingly having done everything properly and just suffering insomnia for my troubles.  I may try again tomorrow or tonight (if I feel cocky - I've at least got piracetam on my side), with a 4mg dose and a shorter sleep time to hopefully combat the insomnia I experienced during my first attempt.

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## Moonbeam

Maybe just forget trying to WILD, and go back to sleep.  That's what I've been doing.  Also, maybe if you took a tiny dose of melatonin (I found some 300 mg tablets), it would allow you to go back to sleep, yet wear off in time for the galantamine to work.

It sounds like it had some effect, at least.

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## dodobird

> Maybe just forget trying to WILD, and go back to sleep.  That's what I've been doing.  Also, maybe if you took a tiny dose of melatonin (I found some 300 mg tablets), it would allow you to go back to sleep, yet wear off in time for the galantamine to work.
> 
> It sounds like it had some effect, at least.



Spamtek, I had similar problems on some of my attempts. The supplements are stimulators so if you are already too awake, they can cause insomnia. 
Moonbeams suggestions are good, and apart from that you can try:
1) Wake up earlier
2) stay up for shorter time
3) Skip or shorten the meditation
4) Try to WILD differently: don't use counting methods, or other methods that are meant to keep you alert, but instead just lay down in a comfortable position and try to fall asleep, while being aware that you want to remain conscious while you are falling a sleep. Sort of dose off, but with the motivation and knowledge that this is a WILD attempt. 
What will hopefully happen is that you begin to dose off, and then some transition effects will take place ( noise, movement etc. ) and when this happens it will wake your mind a little, so that you can complete the WILD. 
The idea is just to relax and wait for the HI. When you become sleepy enough and start to actually fall asleep, this is when the HI will happen.

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## Spamtek

*Experiment 2 [2007-07-29]: Failure*
Ingested 4mg galantamine and 2400mg lecithin after 3-4 hours of sleep... only got up long enough to empty my bladder and chug the pills, and went immediately back to sleep.  When I woke up for this attempt it was definitely a struggle to keep my eyes open which I thought was a good sign, but by the time I'd turned the lights off I felt alert again... oy.  I didn't try WILDing this time as per Moonbeam's suggestion (seems most people become spontaneously lucid, whether they're trying to WILD or not) and figured I'd have a shot at falling asleep for real before the galantamine kicked in, but I definitely never fell into a proper sleep pattern.  I suffered the same kind of splintered, shallow, diffused awareness I talked about last time... I can only explain it as being awake and asleep at the same time, which sounds exactly like what a lucid dream should be, but it wasn't... it _so_ wasn't.  It was just a waste of my time again.  My dreams were substandard and poorly recalled, and I woke up at 6:00 AM feeling both psychically and physically drained.  Haven't taken piracetam yet, but don't feel any side-effects anyways.

I guess I'll have to call a few days rest before I try again, but I don't even feel enthusiastic about trying anymore... right now I can heartily recommend Galantamine for all-nighter study sessions,  but not much else.  Disappointed.

So I 1)woke up earlier, 2)stayed up shorter, 3)didn't meditate, 4)didn't WILD, but that hasn't done it yet.  Next timeI think I'll try to remain awake for as short as humanly possible; long enough to hit and reset the alarm, swill my oneirogens, and hit the pillow again, hopefully without needing to get out of bed or turn on any lights.  If that doesn't work, then I'll really start to be at my wit's end as to what other people are finding useful in this drug.  (edit: may also try melatonin, although it hasn't been working as well for me now as it has in the past, at any dose)

(more edit: )I don't think I've experienced HI more than a few times in my life, and most of those times were during meditation sessions, so I don't know if I can rely on that as a goalpost.  Then again I don't know if I've ever consciously experienced vibrations or SP either, so hell if I know what to look for.

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## Spamtek

I'm on a roll!... kind of!

*Experiment 3 [2007-08-01]: Failure*
4mg galantamine and 2400mg lecithin after 3-4 hours of sleep again.  This time sleep was assisted by 3mg melatonin a half hour before bedtime and an additional ~.5mg along with the galantamine.  I fell back asleep, but I'm beginning to not like the idea of calling any state of unconsciousness fueled by galantamine "sleep."  It honestly feels like regardless of whether I'm semi-unconscious or even dreaming, that I get not a single minute of honest recuperative sleep after ingesting galantamine for the night.  I slept an unbelievable (for me) *8 hours* after taking the galantamine, racking up 12 hours sleep total, but still feel really like I only got the 3-4 hours before ingesting my oneirogens.  I had two dreams that felt very long and at least marginally meaningful, but were also lacking in detail and very disconnected and nonvivid.  Nothing even approaching lucidity, although again I still very much feel like a part of my brain is being kept awake while the rest of it sleeps.  My perception of time never falls out of reality completely... I guess it feels more like I'm in a deep trance experiencing lots of dream imagery, but it's still a restless state that I could open my eyes out of any moment I chose.

I've been doing reality checks (despite my reservations against them) for the last couple days, too, but they didn't help me much here.  I may lay off the galantamine for a while now, since all it does it make me feel horrible (sleep-deprived horrible and "damn, this is hopeless" horrible).

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## lucidus

It's getting a bit quiet here these days  :wink2: 

So far I can tell you that I continued my experimental nights with galantamine and choline. 

In 19 tries I only had one which I would call a failure since lucidity was only very short, then I awoke and drifted back to sleep. However, I had a very interesting non-lucid dream then.

What I would like to ask:

Has anyone further experiences with adding alpha-GPC to the mix? We had some reports here, but I would like more  :smiley: 

The above mentioned failure was my first try with alpha-GPC (besides 8 mg galantamine and 500 mg choline and 250 mg B5). Maybe I took too much, it was 900 mg which is rather high for the first time.

The second try was with a long lucid dream (about 45 min). However, there was a lot of dynamic and "instability" and so I lost the dreamscape quite much but was always able to reconstruct a new one.

In all cases I experienced some kind of problem to get out of bed in the morning. I feel rather heavy and lazy. A friend of mine tried alpha-GPC during daytime and she reported that she got very tired a few hours after ingestion. I am a bit confused.. a cholinergic substance which causes fatigue? 

I got my alpha-GPC from NSI. Alpha-GPC is very expensive unfortunately and so far I only read promising reports from Yuschak himself. So has anybody given it a try?

----------


## dodobird

Lately my sleep schedule is quite out of order, and I prefer to wait making further attempts with supplements until I get it beck in order. I hope I have something to report soon. I have Alpha-GPC and I will try it on one of my coming attempts and post the a report here.

----------


## Spamtek

As long as I'm spamming this thread with failed attempts, here's another!  I threw a nicotine patch into the mix for this one.

*Experiment 4 [2007-08-14]: Failure*
After ~3 hours sleep, I took 4mg galantamine with ~10g lecithin and simultaneously applied 1/4 of a 21mg transdermal nicotine patch, making it theoretically weaker than the 7mg patches which are the lowest dose you can actually buy.  Sleep thereafter was consistent with earlier attempts, shallow, restless, and never really feeling like sleep.  Dreams were vivid and far-flung but not deep; it was hard to remember them on waking because trying to recall what I dreamed honestly didn't seem to yield any clues.  The experience was still qualitatively closer to that of a vivid daydream or visualization exercise rather than a dream, so I had to switch mental gears to recall what I could of the night's activity.  No lucidity, no vibration, no SP, etc etc, not even a surprise to me any more.  Can't say I noticed the nicotine doing anything, despite Yuschak calling galantamine + nicotine the two heaviest hitters in the oneirogen category.

----------


## Thomas

Hello Spamtek,

Your results must be frustrating you. I might be able to help. There are a couple of differences between what you're doing and the methods described in the book.

First, you need to get at least 4 hours of sleep prior to making an attempt. This is really important, especially when your just getting started using the LDS method. I would recommend 4.5 hours. I saw in one of your earlier posts that you had trouble getting back to sleep and I think that may have been why you shortened your initial sleep time. Taking time to fall back to sleep after taking galantamine is very common in the beginning. It gets much easier with practice. On the night of your attempt, just settle in and relax and realize that it might be a while before sleep comes. Try not to flip flop around and try not to talk to yourself while you lie there. Your patients will pay off. 

Secondly, although lecithin is an efficient source of choline, it is not ideal for lucid dreaming. It takes too long to reach peak plasma levels. Peak plasma estimates are between 2-6 hours for lecithin. I also have experimented with lecithin with no luck. Choline Bitartrate (choline) works best. When you hear statements like choline does not cross the blood brain barrier efficiently you have to take them with a grain of salt. Choline does enter the brain efficiently when the brain is low on choline (and acetylcholine). This is precisely the case during deep sleep. This fact coupled with the fact that the time to peak plasma level is about an hour makes this form of choline superior to lecithin.

Thirdly, I dont know if you are still doing this, but one of your early posts said you were taking 2 grams of Piracetam per day. You shouldnt do that. Although I know some people who have had some success taking piracetam and galantamine together, my own tests show that having piracetam in your system when you take galantamine will lower your odds of success. There are published articles on the EEG effects of galantamine and piracetam that might help explain this. I dont want to get overly detailed here so I will only say that the two substances have opposite effects on the alpha bandwidth and my own EEG data confirm that this bandwidth is very important to lucid dreams. Also, there is some evidence that Piracetam builds up in your brain over time (this is good for the nootropic effect but not for lucid dreams). If you have been taking regularly, then take a break for few days before your next attempt. Piracetam is very helpful if taken immediately following an LDS attempt however, as it helps to counter the effects of galantamine.

Lastly, make sure you dont have any other extenuating circumstances. For example, drinking alcohol on the eve prior to an attempt can significantly reduce your odds of success. Also try to get a good amount of sleep on the night prior to an attempt. Also (and I am not implying anything here) pot will put your odds down in the basement. 

And just out of curiosity, I am wondering if you smoke cigarettes. Smoking can desensitize some very important receptors when it comes to lucid dreaming.

Hope this helps. If you want to ask any questions you can do so at http://www.advancedld.com/Question_Answer_Board.html

Take Care
Thomas Yuschak
AdvancedLD, Ltd

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## lucidus

Hi Thomas,
nice to have you here  :smiley: .






> Smoking can desensitize some very important receptors when it comes to lucid dreaming.



I fully agree to that, but let me tell you that a few weeks ago we had a little get-together of some lucid dreamers of another forum and I invited them to test the LDS method.

There were 4 persons besides me, two of them heavy smokers. None of them had ever taken the LDS supplements before. So we arranged a WBTB after 4 hours of sleep.

Both smokers got lucid after taking 8 mg galantamine and 500 mg choline bitartrate and a Matcha tea we had during our one hour WBTB-phase, one of them with quite a fascinating, long lucid dream. They both had a cigarette during WBTB.

Another one (non smoker) had a very impressing LD, the last one was not able to fall back to sleep again.

I myself also succeeded during that night, but let me tell you that I have an incredible success rate using the LDS method anyway (as I posted earlier in this thread). 

I don't really like smoking (and call myself a non-smoker) but during the get-together I smoked a few cigarres and cigarettes which seemed to have no impact on my success rate.

However this should not be a "go" for combining smoking and lucid dreaming, I really suggest to quit smoking to everybody who does.

Keep up the good work Thomas,
I am reading your published material with great interest.

Kind regards from Germany (where you also get galantamine and piracetam if you know how  ::D: )

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## REMemberDreaming

*WARNING*

There's research that shows that humans need Acetylcholine levels to be low during sleep in order to consolidate memories. When you take Acetylcholinesterase inhibitors like Galantamine & L-Huperzine-A anywhere near bedtime, it actually significantly impairs your ability to remember memories from the day before. Thus, it may help lucid dreaming, but if you're a student or worker or anyone else who would like to remember stuff they learned the day before, don't take it. See:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PNAS - Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
Published online before print February 6, 2004, 10.1073/pnas.0305404101  

*Low acetylcholine during slow-wave sleep is critical for declarative memory consolidation*

Steffen Gais *, and Jan Born

Department of Neuroendocrinology, University of L&#252;beck, Ratzeburger Allee 160, 23538 L&#252;beck, Germany

The neurotransmitter acetylcholine is considered essential for proper functioning of the hippocampus-dependent declarative memory system, and it represents a major neuropharmacological target for the treatment of memory deficits, such as those in Alzheimer's disease. During slow-wave sleep (SWS), however, declarative memory consolidation is particularly strong, while acetylcholine levels in the hippocampus drop to a minimum. Observations in rats led to the hypothesis that the low cholinergic tone during SWS is necessary for the replay of new memories in the hippocampus and their long-term storage in neocortical networks. However, this low tone should not affect nondeclarative memory systems. *In this study, increasing central nervous cholinergic activation during SWS-rich sleep by posttrial infusion of 0.75 mg of the cholinesterase inhibitor physostigmine completely blocked SWS-related consolidation of declarative memories for word pairs in human subjects*. The treatment did not interfere with consolidation of a nondeclarative mirror tracing task. Also, physostigmine did not alter memory consolidation during waking, when the endogenous central nervous cholinergic tone is maximal. These findings are in line with predictions that a low cholinergic tone during SWS is essential for declarative memory consolidation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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## Thomas

Hi Ludicus,

Thought I would clarify something. Nicotine consumed at WBTB can be helpful (although I wouldn’t recommend it). As I pointed out in the book, a transdermal nicotine patch is a very effective trigger, theoretically so would be a cigarette. In the case of a daytime smoker, a cigarette at WBTB could help raise the ACh levels to a point where the galantamine would work as efficiently as it would by itself for a non-smoker. However, I believe that if nicotine were not consumed at WBTB, galantamine would be less effective (for the daytime smoker). I admit that there is no research I am aware of that directly investigates the affects of daytime smoking on lucid dreaming, but it would be a very worthwhile study.

Take Care
Thomas

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## Thomas

Hello REMembering Dreaming,

You are 100&#37; correct. This is one of the reasons why it so important to sleep 4-5 hours prior to consuming a cholinergic substance. The first half of the night is dominated by deep "slow wave" sleep and the second half of the night is dominated by REM sleep. Taking galantamine (or other cholinergic substances) too early will leave you energy depleted the next day due to a deep sleep deficit that can have a negative impact on your memory, mood, and general well being. Remember that the goal is to keep your body in balance. This is the only way to maintain a high success rate  and stay healthy and happy.

Thomas

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## three and four

Hi Thomas,

GalantaMind is working really well for me. Im trying to fine-tune the exact way in which I take it.

I try to sleep about 4.5 hrs, stay up for one hour getting my brain active, and then go back to bed and attempt to WILD.

Would you recommend that the GalantaMind be taken: 1. at the start of the 1hr awake as a pill? 2. at the start of the 1hr awake as powder dissolved in liquid? Or maybe after 30 mins awake? Or maybe just before going back to bed?

Thanks for your insights!

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## lucidus

> Hi Thomas,
> 
> Would you recommend that the GalantaMind be taken: 1. at the start of the 1hr awake as a pill? 2. at the start of the 1hr awake as powder dissolved in liquid?



That's an interesting question anyway (besides the timing question) because I read on a website that galantamine is not water-soluble. Neither in alcohol.

So I would suspect that it is fat-soluble. Has anybody more information?

If it was fat-soluble, then I would expect that dissolving it in melted butter or oil would probably have some advantages. I will try this maybe at my next attempt. Of course I would have to make sure that temperature problems won't kill the galantamine.

Edit: Well, I am unsure about the hydrobromide salt of galantamine now. Maybe this is water-soluble?

----------


## iadr

I just received my dream supplements yesterday so decided to go ahead and try the Galantamine/Choline method. 

Not wanting to overdose on anything I first pulled the 5-HTP capsule apart and only took about 2/3 of it, which was still 100mg, and which was still a bit much as I felt sort of queezy, until around 830pm when I stopped meditating and fell asleep. 

When I woke up at 1:00AM I felt fine and very rested, so decided to take the 2nd part of the supplement. 

Not wanting to overdose on the Galantime I pulled the 8mg capsule apart and only took 1/3 of it, or about 3mg, then cut the 500mg Choline pill in half and took half of it or about 250mg. 

At 115AM I went back to bed and meditated on raising my energy. 

The last thing I remember was my cuckoo clock going off at 2AM. 

I then dreamed that I woke up (false awakening) and was walking toward my bathroom. 

On the way to the bathroom though I became very dizzy and disoriented, so just went back to bed. 

Once back in bed in my dream I saw this dream in front of me that I felt like I would be able to enter and become lucid in, so I concentrated on the dream and enterered it. 

Once in the dream I realized that I was dreaming, but was enjoying the dream so much that I decided to just go along with the dream and enjoy it. 

I was in a room full of grown women, most of who seemed to be a little on the heavy side, and I had this psychic power where when I touched one of them I could sense what they were thinking or feeling, and was then able to heal them. 

So I was reaching out and touching and hugging the women on both sides of me and healing them. 

I then got up and walked over and hugged another lady who wanted me to touch her. 

Then I find myself dreaming that I am back in my bed again (false awakening) and I am thinking about what a cool lucid dream I just had, but I am concerned about whether I am going to feel dizzy and disoriented when I get up to go to work. 

Next I dream that it is 3AM and I have gotten up (false awakening) and I am telling my wife about the cool dream I had. 

Then I actually do wake up and when I look at the clock it is only 2:20AM so I had been dreaming for only 20 minutes.

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## pj

I'm posting this just to establish a quick subscription so it is easier for me to follow this thread.

The herbal and supplement things are interesting... not to the point where I'm willing to try any of them other than basic vitamins, but you all have done a great job of compiling information and documenting results here.

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## toolguy16

I heard about galantamine aiding in dream recognition so i bought pills that also had choline from dreamamins.com. I read on a post somewhere about people experimenting with galantamine, and one guy said he had the best results when he woke up about 4 or 5am and took one. I stayed home from work one day and decided a mid-day nap would be great testing grounds. I took one pill a half hour before laying down.

It worked extremely well, almost frighteningly. I had about a half dozen dreams, half of which were lucid and the other half non-lucid, but all were very very vivid. Also, the lucid dreams were *very* lucid, where i was very aware that I was indeed dreaming and had much control.

The only negative point I'd like to touch on was that for the first time in my life, I found it difficult to leave the dreams and wake up. I'd open my eyes but only for a second, then fall back into the dream. this happened a few times and when i finally awoke, i was a bit rattled that I couldn't get out of the dream faster. Kinda reminded me of the movie 1408.

Other than that, great dream-aid. However, similarly all other chemicals, I wouldn't take it more than once or twice a week in fear of becoming tolerant of the drug.

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## iadr

> I'm posting this just to establish a quick subscription so it is easier for me to follow this thread.
> 
> The herbal and supplement things are interesting... not to the point where I'm willing to try any of them other than basic vitamins, but you all have done a great job of compiling information and documenting results here.



I'm not into drugs either pj, other than vitamins, but after reading the articles from this website: http://www.advancedld.com/Question_Answer_Board.html and googling information on the prodiucts, I decided that these supplements were very similar to vitamins, and would actually be healthy to take, so decided to give them a try.  So far they have proved to be just what I had hoped for as they just got me out of a 3 week slump.

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## iadr

Tried the method again last night for the second night in a row with the following results. 

I just used the supplements I had left over from the previous night which amounted to about 50 mg of 5HTP which I took when going to bed, which proved to be about right for me as it helped me relax, but did not make me feel sick to my stomach. 

After meditating for about an hour and 30 minutes I fell asleep. 

I then woke up from a dream an hour and a half later at 10PM, at which time I decided to go ahead and take the 5 mg of Galantime and 250 mg of Choline that I had left. 

After getting something to eat and staying up for about 15 minutes I went back to bed and meditated in order to remain alert for another 45 mintues until the supplements are supposed to kick in after 60 minutes. 

After 60 minutes had past and I had not had a mind blowing experience I decided that maybe I had to fall asleep first for something to happen. 

So I allowed myself to relax after which I began to see images, which when I concentrated on I found myself floating in the air above some place with some stone walls. This lasted for about 10 seconds. 

10 minutes later some more images appeared which when I concentrated on I found myself outside of my parents house in a bunch of snow. I kept repeating the words "I am dreaming" to myself to remain aware that I was dreaming while I put a large snow ball together. 

I then thought I should try floating. When I tried floating though I became aware that I was in my bed trying to float out of my body. Unfortunately though I was unable to get out of my body as my body pulled me back down, ending my nice little adventure. 

The rest of the night consisted of 4 or 5 normal dreams, from which I woke up from very rested. 

Taking the 2nd round of supplements earlier in the evening allowed me to get more regular dream sleep after the supplements wore off, which alowed me to feel very rested this morning. 

Although it may have caused my experiences to be a little less dramatic than the previous night since I had gotten less sleep before taking them, I can live with that, because the previous night was a little scary at times, in addition to leaving me feeling a little hung over in the morning. 

Since I've taken these supplements two days in a row, it is now time to take a couple of days off to allow them to be flushed out of my body, so that the next time I try, they will be once again effective.

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## phoenelai

I just finished his book and will be doing a study here as well. I've ordered Galamantine and 5-Htp but also ordering Choline and Piracetam. I think its important to counter the side affects and tolerance if possible. Should be a interesting study!

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## phoenelai

Tonight I'm taking 4mg of Galantamine (not yet mixed with Choline) around 3 AM and WBTB /WILD. I'll post in the morning. I'll be following up with Piracetam so I don't build up tolerance; although I only plan on testing a couple nights a week.

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## triffidfood

Really interesting topic!  

Just as a note of caution though, people who experience certain types of depression should be kinda careful with supplements or drugs that increase Acetylcholine.

There's a theory (which has quite a bit of research behind it, I'll hunt out some links if anyone's interested) that some forms of depression, especially those linked with anxiety, might be caused or worsened by an imbalance of Ach compared to Serotonin & Noradrenaline.  That is, too much Ach relative to Serotonin/ Noradrenaline may cause depressive/ anxiety symptoms in these people.

Last year I tried taking DMAE (for LDng) but had to stop because I was *completely* intolerent to it, even in very small doses (part of one tablet crushed & mixed with Lecithin, for example).   It made me feel very foggy, anxious & damped down.

Taking Lecithin (granules) for too long, at highish doses (several tablespoons a day!  ::roll:: ) also had a slightly similar effect, though nowhere near so dramatic.

Anyway, the point is, if you think you may be susceptible to depressive or anxiety problems, be careful.  That is, "be careful" as in don't take Ach boosting supps in too high doses, or for too long without breaks.

That said ..... these sort of substance do seem to work (at least, the Soya Lecithin absolutely did for me, I wasn't able to take DMAE long enough to find out).

I used to get much more vivid & memorable dreams taking Lecithin, and also really noticeable, swirly images behind my eyes at night (I don't usually get any hypogogic imagery or anything like that), so Lecithin seems to increase visual imagery really well.

So anyway, the point is, Ach supplements absolutely DO seem to work (maybe not surprisingly, since Ach levels are @ max during REM sleep), but be careful about doses & give yourself breaks, especially if you think you may be susceptible in any way.

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## phoenelai

*Experiment: Galantamine 4 mg {Sucess}*
You can read dream in dream journal

I went to bed around 10:30 and woke up around 3:00 and took 4mg Gal. I didnt want to stay up with hunger pains so grabbed a bowl of cereal. I went back to bed, the HI's were pretty cool but I laid awake for a couple of hours (not easy to go back to sleep on this stuff for me). At first started with a couple of Vivid dreams. Then the lucids started, I had many false awakenings but still lucid. I had some difficulty transporting or transferring to a new dream scene. I had a decent amount of control although. I think if I would have had more time I could easily WILD back into many more dreams. I also followed up with Piracetam the next morning to counter tolerance and Alka Seltzer (indigestion).

_Summary: I wouldnt mess with this stuff again during the work week due to its hard to go back to sleep and I lost a couple of hours. I'm not quite sure this stuff would be good for beginner lucid dreamers. The reason I say is, I agree these are High level lucids, very vivid and one could seem to get stuck in a dream if they weren't in full control. I could see if being difficult to try to wake up if needed. Also this stuff easily gives false awakenings, this has been reported by other users. You'll need to constantly check your reality upon a new scene._

*Side Effects:*
Upset Stomach, diarrhea, indigestion (next day)Anxiety, nervous tension (when trying to fall back asleep)Mental clarity/focus (next day)Slightly off balance (next day)

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## iadr

> *Experiment: Galantamine 4 mg {Sucess}*
> You can read dream in dream journal
> 
> _Summary: I wouldnt mess with this stuff again during the work week due to its hard to go back to sleep and I lost a couple of hours. I'm not quite sure this stuff would be good for beginner lucid dreamers. The reason I say is, I agree these are High level lucids, very vivid and one could seem to get stuck in a dream if they weren't in full control. I could see if being difficult to try to wake up if needed. Also this stuff easily gives false awakenings, this has been reported by other users. You'll need to constantly check your reality upon a new scene._
> 
> *Side Effects:*Upset Stomach, diarrhea, indigestion (next day)Anxiety, nervous tension (when trying to fall back asleep)Mental clarity/focus (next day)Slightly off balance (next day)



That is an excellent summary and write up of the side effects phoenela.  I totally agree with everything you mentioned, especially the suggestion you made about not trying this during the work week.

After an unsuccessful attempt my last try I took a week off to get the galantamine out of my system.  

And once again it worked great giving me a total of 8 dreams in a 2 hour period, one of which was a false awakening, which was then followed by a lucid dream.

Although I've not experienced any side effects from the galantamine, other than feeling a little funny after the first time after I tried it, I sure felt it when it kicked in, so was really glad I had only taken 4 mg of it instead of 8 mg like some people do.

I agree that someone is better off only trying this on the weekend when they can sleep in to sleep off the effects of it and would also suggest that anyone trying this start out slow, taking not more than 4mg of the galantamine and 250mg of the cholorine.

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## phoenelai

I tried it again last night. Same dose same time. I have to say I had little side effects the next day. I had a night of pretty restfull sleep and very vivid dreams although not lucid this time. Next time I'm going to add choline to the mix and report back.

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## iadr

I know that this taking these supplements is not a good long term approach for learning lucid dreaming, and some of the supplements are kind of expensive, but for me it is the only thing that is working consistently right now. 

I tried it again last night for the second night in a row (I know you are supposed to wait a day between tries, but the weekend is the only time I can sleep in), by taking 100mg of 5-HTP before going to bed, and then taking 4mg of galantamine and 250 mg of cholorine after about 6 hours of sleep and had the most incredible dream of being able to float.  

I floated around for what seemed like hours, and then became aware that I was dreaming, after which I decided to try to visit my parents who passed over to the other side about 3 years ago.  As nothing happened when I tried this (I guess I just didn't know where to find them), I then decided to visit my neighbor who I had been talking to earlier in the day, and who I had made an agreement with to try to go and visit with the next time I was out of my body, as he mentioned that he had felt my presence in his garage really strong one night.  

Unfortunately, after trying this for a short time I decided against this as I thought it was too early in the morning and he would not be awake, even though it was actually later in the morning.  My mistake, as this might have been an excellent test to be able to verify an out of body experience with someone.

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## DrTechnical

That was too easy!

A little background. I've been lucid dreaming for about 1.25 years w/ an average LD count of 2-3 per week. So I've had plenty of success with DILDs and somewhat backburnered learning to WILD. I also meditate daily - more or less.

When I heard about and read the "Advanced Lucid Dreaming" book, I figured this was a good chance to learn how to WILD.

I got my galantamine/choline in the mail yesterday. 4 mg and 200mg doses respectively. I slept for about 4 hours, woke up naturally and took two pills, staying up reading for about the next 45-50 minutes.

I had some trouble relaxing and falling back to sleep, but holy crap. over the next 90 min or so, 2 WILDS, 2 DILDS and one WILD close call. Like I said, that was too easy.

One WILD and one close call was consistent with Yuschak's description of your head vibrating for up to a minute before stabilizing into a dream (in which I found myself in my dream bed right where I started). The first experience was so startling I woke. The second time i negoatiated the process correcty and got it right (head vibration, followed by a falling feeling, followed by darkness with a burst of stars that faded before opening my eyes into the dream world).

I'm quite blown away by how effective this combo was for me. Incidently, I found yohimbe and mucana P more easily and tried them previously with less than stellar results.

What I would change:

1) I would probably force myself up for only 20-30 minutes, as 45 or so made it too hard to return to sleep.

2) I would probably sleep 5-6 hours, since the residual sleep after taking the galantamine/choline combo is pretty lousy - not too restful.

Enjoy ...

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## phoenelai

Yeah I have to order my Choline. I know, this stuff keeps me up too mucho rest needed and perhaps on a Sat or Sun morning. I wake up too early for work and it would just get wasted. Wierd how Galantamine triggers all those false awakenings. Strange.

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## Suby

Hello, I want to get in on this... I live in Texas at the moment, where can I order Galantamine from (preferably online)? And is plain old "GNC Choline 250" what I want?

Is Choline by itself enough to start experimenting with? From the reduction in quality of sleep reports from Galantamine, as a college student, I am a bit hesitant about trying that out.

Edit: Oh yeah, has anyone who has very very few lucids (or none at all) tried these drugs/supplements? If so, got anything to report? Good/Bad?

----------


## phoenelai

> Hello, I want to get in on this... I live in Texas at the moment, where can I order Galantamine from (preferably online)? And is plain old "GNC Choline 250" what I want?
> 
> Is Choline by itself enough to start experimenting with? From the reduction in quality of sleep reports from Galantamine, as a college student, I am a bit hesitant about trying that out.



Hello! I'm in Houston myself, heeh. I havent used by itself, the combo is the best. Although right now just been testing Galantamine.

I use these guys

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## Suby

Hehe yeah, I'm in Houston too... So you ordered that type of choline and also seperately some Galantamine from that site you linked? Do you think trying Choline by itself is worth it or should I jump straight in to the combo?

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## phoenelai

So far I've just tested Galantamine by itself. First night it produced a lucid, the other two it didnt. I just ordered the Choline so ready to test the combo. I use that site for both supplements. The ship pretty quick too!

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## Suby

Awesome, thanks for the info and quick reply. Nice avatar btw... I lived in Saudi for 2 years and you always wonder what's underneath! lol

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## phoenelai

> Awesome, thanks for the info and quick reply. Nice avatar btw... I lived in Saudi for 2 years and you always wonder what's underneath! lol



No Worries! Have fun! ::banana::

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## little nemo

I've been following this thread with interest, and decided to get some of these LD supplements for myself. My *GalantaMind* just arrived today.......can't wait to try it tonight!

Purchasing info; Google *GalantaMind* and you will find loads of sources. The prices vary widely - I paid just over $40 for mine (for 90 capsules, 4mgs per) but some sites will charge sixty or seventy dollars for the very same thing.

Will post results tomorrow.

----------


## three and four

Little Nemo, I've also been following this thread, and GM has been a big success for me.

I just wanted to say that I'm a big fan of the Little Nemo comic strip, and that in a story I read recently, Nemo's bed starts shaking. He then feels he's sinking through the floor, before appearing (as himself), in Dreamland.

It struck me that this really looks like a description of WILD. Don't you think? I wondered if the author was into LDs, 100 years ago...

----------


## little nemo

3&4,

Thanks for the heads up on GM, I would like to read of some of your experiences with it.

Interesting idea about McKay (Nemo's creator, for those unfamiliar with the comic strip). His representations of Little Nemo's dreams are so dead-on, who knows, he very well could have had LDs. Come to think of it, over and over again Nemo knows he is dreaming and tries not to wake up.

McKay also did a strip called 'Dreams of a Rarebit Fiend' which were all about nightmares, and there again, he captured the essense of what it's like to dream. My favorite is about a man who is being buried but isn't dead yet. It shows his vantage from the bottom of the grave looking up, eavesdropping on the conversations at his own funeral, but he can't talk to let anyone know he's still alive. Hmmmm......an SP experience?

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## Suby

I've got my galantamind too! and choline... Ill try sometime this week and report back with my experiences... starting with 4mg galantamine and 250mg choline.

Do you think that taking this stuff before an afternoon nap is a bad idea? I only had like 5 hours of sleep at night but I have been up for at least 4 hours now. I also have a hard time falling asleep (whether at nap time or bed time). Should I save it for a WBTB? I plan to experiment ofcourse but am I right in that the general assumption is that the WBTB time is better for the galantamind stuff?

----------


## phoenelai

> I've got my galantamind too! and choline... Ill try sometime this week and report back with my experiences... starting with 4mg galantamine and 250mg choline.



Yeah, I just got my choline in so I'll test this weekend. I dont mess with this during the work week, heheh.

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## dodobird

> I've got my galantamind too! and choline... Ill try sometime this week and report back with my experiences... starting with 4mg galantamine and 250mg choline.
> 
> Do you think that taking this stuff before an afternoon nap is a bad idea? I only had like 5 hours of sleep at night but I have been up for at least 4 hours now. I also have a hard time falling asleep (whether at nap time or bed time). Should I save it for a WBTB? I plan to experiment ofcourse but am I right in that the general assumption is that the WBTB time is better for the galantamind stuff?



Yes it should be taken at WBTB both for best results, and so that your deep sleep will not suffer.

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## DrTechnical

I know it is not advised to take it at the beginning of your sleep cycle for two reasons. One, it will screw up your natural delta wave sleep and physical recuperation. Two, your brain is not ready to produce a lot of acetycholine naturally, hence these supplements will not work in an optimal manner. I suspect this second point applies to midday naps as well.

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## Suby

Okay so here's my first report (or lack thereof):

Close but no cigar.

I took a pill of Galantamind (4mg galantamine 200mg choline I think?) and then went to bed. It took me about 50 minutes to get to sleep with nothing out of the ordinary happening to me. I then had 3 rounds of dreams where I woke up after each one. In the first dream, I dreamt that I had taken galantamind and that I was lucid dreaming. I had no idea what I was dreaming that I was lucid dreaming about, but all I remember was that I had a very warm feeling and that I dreamt I was sweating under my covers. Either way, I was probably not really lucid and the dream had some other stuff happen before I woke up. The next 2 dreams were just normal dreams of which I have partial memory about.

No increase in vividity. No lucidity. And in fact, a reduction in memory.

No sideeffects besides feeling like I need to burp a tiny bit. Could be very slight hunger or something. Other than that, I feel absolutely normal. (Maybe a headache?)

Galantamind you dissapoint me!

Next time, I will try a WBTB. Probably in a weeks time or something. Should I be taking choline seperate to the galantamind pill?

----------


## dodobird

Yes, WBTB is the way to go with these supplements.
About adding more choline, the supplement that you have already has choline, so before I would add more I would try this dose a few times. The lowest dose that works is the best way.

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## little nemo

My initial GalantaMind results;


LDs induced were a bit chaotic. Dreams very vivid but also somewhat chaotic.

Mild nausea - preventable by taking GM with food and water.

Difficulty in getting back to sleep.

Slight wooziness the next day.


The jury is still out on GM for me. I need to try it a number of times and in a number of different ways (when it's taken, what dose, etc.) before I can tell if it's worth the $ and the side effects.

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## phoenelai

Im testing the combo tonight and will report back. So far GalantaMind 1st night alone produced a lucid, no other nights. Choline bitrate by itself produced vivd but no lucids byitself. Tonight will be combo test, I'll report back in the morning.

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## DreaminNow

I got my Galantamind yesterday and tried it last night. I started trying to have lucid dreams about 10 days ago, with no success.
I had planned to wake up between 3 a.m. and 4 a.m. and take 8 mg. However, I didn't wake up until 5 a.m. I had to work today, so I didn't want to overdo it at that late hour, in case of side effects. So I took only 4 mg.
I had one fairly vivid dream, not lucid. I woke up then went back to sleep. Then I had my first lucid! It was brief, and not too dramatic, but I was excited nonetheless! It started as a regular dream, but then I did a reality check and realized I was dreaming.
I plan to try again tonight with 8 mg.

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## Moonbeam

Hey, DreaminNow, welcom to the forum.  That's cool that the Galantamind worked for you to get your first lucid (it's great stuff).  Another good thing about it is the lack of side effects; I've taken it as late as 4:00 AM and gotten up at 5:00 feeling fine.  It may work for you if you take it twice in a row;  however, after that it's best to let your receptors recover for a few days.  I have had it work two days in a row, but after that the odds go down and I'll have to wait for several days for it to work again.

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## phoenelai

*Experiment: Galantamine 4 mg 
Choline Bitrate 500 mg {Failure/Success?}*

I'm on the fence about this one. I had a pre lucid which doesnt make this a total failure. I woke up around 4 AM and took the supplements and went back to bed. In the dream I was entertaining a girlfriend, in the living room was my dad who is deceased and his dad (my grandfather) who is also deceased. I was explaining to her that my dad and I have the same name except I'm a JR. Note typically when I'm lucid and I see my dad its like a reunion, I'm usually aware that he has passed and get really excited to see him possibly thinking its a visit from the other side ect... Now here's the funny thing I told the girl, "and that is his dad (Charles Meyer)...but he's not really here he's passed. So when you wake up..he won't be here" Okay to me..that statement is at least pre-lucid. Again, usually my dad would have been the trigger and not sure why I didn't catch that. When drifting off I did notice some amazing HI's, I have to admit that.

_Experience: Was mostly bad and not due to the dream due to what followed. This may not be due to the supplements it could be I usually don't sleep in late because I get allot of sleep paralysis which I don't usually like. For me It's like being stuck between worlds and I can't move (not control). I had false awakenings that I had fallen on the floor but couldnt move. Also this was happening allot and I was getting audio hallucinations if you will. Very strange, wierd, piercing sounds, (ears ringing) it was quite scary. I didn't feel anymore lucid than when I just took Galantamine, 5HTP or Choline by themselves._

*Results*: So far I can't say this stuff will work for everyone. I thought for sure I had found the magic pill but I'm beginning to believe it doesn't exist. Although this stuff may not give an immediate lucid I think it could be a gateway or step. I've actually had more lucids with audio triggers than I have these supplements. I'll probably get back into that since its helped me so much.

*Side Effects:*light headed, not well rested (morning)nervous tension (morning)
Slightly off balance (morning)

----------


## DreaminNow

Well, as mentioned above, I tried the GalantaMind a second night in a row. I did it as planned, 8 mg at 4 a.m.
Unfortunately, nothing. I had some vivid non-lucids, but not necessarily different from what I would have without the supplement. No lucids at all.
I see two potential reasons for the failure. One, it was two days in a row of Galantamind. Maybe there's already a slight tolerance effect? And two, when I woke up at 4, I had just had a bad dream. So I was a bit distracted and didn't have the positive mental attitude that is so important to lucid dreaming.
I'll give it a break for few days then try again. I'm still a GalantaMind believer since it gave me my first lucid.
By the way, no side effects.

----------


## Dr. Dreamsign

Just to note... according to Yuschak, when you take the galantamine and choline combo... you aren't supposed to fall immediately to sleep.  I think galantamine reaches it's peak plasma level at about 50minutes into it.  And you really aren't meant to just go to sleep... you just have to be very relaxed and allow the dream to form... it is meant for WILD not DILD. I have galantamine and choline but I haven't tried it yet... too lazy perhaps but I smoke also and he said this can prevent lucid dreams.  Anyone have any takes on tobacco smoke and ld's?

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## Moonbeam

I use the Galantamine and Choline for DILD instead of WILD, because I almost always fall asleep. If you don't smoke, nicotine is a good lucid inducer.  I don't know if it works if you do smoke.

I had another successful night; but I was thinking when I woke up that there is a disadvantage to the supplements.  They work extremely well for me, and I have really long, crazy lucids, but I don't want to get up and write them down because if I go back to sleep I can get right back into another one.  So I spend like two hours lucid and by morning I've forgotten a lot of the details of the first part.

This is a minor disadvantage, because I think I remember the highlights of the dreams and the good parts, if not all the details.  Also I get a chance to practice and get better.  I am much better at things such as summoning and changing location since starting the supplements than I used to be; also with so much time being lucid, I am catching up on all those things that I wanted to do but didn't get around to because so much time would go by before I got a chance.

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## Dr. Dreamsign

That's cool that it works for DILDs as well. Maybe I'll try taking it. Do you think it would work for me even though my dream recall is mediocre? And I don't really reality test at all.  ::shock::

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## Moonbeam

> That's cool that it works for DILDs as well. Maybe I'll try taking it. Do you think it would work for me even though my dream recall is mediocre? And I don't really reality test at all.



I don't really know; I had been into lucid dreaming for like a year and half and had lots of them before using the supplements.  So I really couldn't tell you if prior experience will matter.  I just know I suck at WILDing and they still work for me.

I imagine doing all the recommended things (RC's, practicing recall, etc.) would greatly add to the odds that it will work for you; otherwise, you'll probably just have vivid dreams.

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## DreaminNow

How many days off Galantamine should I take before resuming?

----------


## three and four

If you take Piracetam once you wake up from your GM night, 48hrs. If not, four days might be a good idea. (According to Yushack).

You can actually get use to this stuff (like Moonbeam says...).

----------


## three and four

Galantamind has worked quite well for me, but after a two week break Ive taken it twice with no lucids.

However, I noticed something else that I found interesting: this stuff really does seem to have a positive effect on memory.

After failing to get lucid with GM last night I nevertheless recalled three dreams this morning, involving four elements from my life 20 years ago. Three were good friends back then, who showed up individually in the three dreams. Also, in one of the dreams, Sheila E. was playing the drums (and Ive not even thought about her since I was a teenager).

So I suddenly wondered if the Galantamind was giving me easier access to long-term memories. But maybe it was just a coincidence. Dunno.

----------


## phoenelai

> Galantamind has worked quite well for me, but after a two week break Ive taken it twice with no lucids.
> 
> However, I noticed something else that I found interesting: this stuff really does seem to have a positive effect on memory.
> 
> After failing to get lucid with GM last night I nevertheless recalled three dreams this morning, involving four elements from my life 20 years ago. Three were good friends back then, who showed up individually in the three dreams. Also, in one of the dreams, Sheila E. was playing the drums (and Ive not even thought about her since I was a teenager).
> 
> So I suddenly wondered if the Galantamind was giving me easier access to long-term memories. But maybe it was just a coincidence. Dunno.



 
I was wondering if anyone has used GM along with audio triggers. I've had much success with auto suggestion and entrainment. I wonder if the combination could enhance such a trigger? Just thoughts but its a bit off topic.

 :Off topic:

----------


## dodobird

> I was wondering if anyone has used GM along with audio triggers. I've had much success with auto suggestion and entrainment. I wonder if the combination could enhance such a trigger? Just thoughts but its a bit off topic.



It's not off-topic, a combined technique could be very powerful. 
Let us know If you try this.

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## phoenelai

> It's not off-topic, a combined technique could be very powerful. 
> Let us know If you try this.



Oh...for sure I will. I'll keep you guys posted. ::D:

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## iadr

> I was wondering if anyone has used GM along with audio triggers. I've had much success with auto suggestion and entrainment. I wonder if the combination could enhance such a trigger? Just thoughts but its a bit off topic.



Yes, it shoud work very well with audio triggers. 

The thing I've notice about the GM dreams is that they usually pertain to whatever the last thing was on my mind when I fall asleep.

So since I usually practice floating around my house in my imagination while falling asleep, I have ended up having a lot of floating and flying dreams lately.

This morning I had finished floating around my house and had floated to work in my imagination, so that is exactly where I was when I became lucid...at work. I think I'll try transporting myself somewhere more pleasant the next time (lol).

----------


## iadr

> How many days off Galantamine should I take before resuming?



You don't want to do it more than every other day for sure, and for most people it works best if you do it once or twice a week so that your body does not build up a tolerance to it, which will make it much less effective.

----------


## phoenelai

Yeah I dont test more than once a week and when I do I use Piracetam for tolerance.

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## Moonbeam

> However, I noticed something else that I found interesting: this stuff really does seem to have a positive effect on memory.



Well that's what it's supposed to do, so that's good! I'm still waiting for that part to kick in with me. ::roll::  

It helps to take a break for a few days if it quits working. It's hard for me to keep from taking it too often, especially after a really good night, and I've done it twice in a row.  Sometimes it works, sometimes not, but after that I definitely have take a few more days off.

Good thing, really, or I'd be doing it every night.  I try other supplements or just go natural in between.

----------


## three and four

Something tells me that acoustic induction could work particularly well with GalantaMind, as Ive noticed the following: when lucid after taking this substance Ive often felt aware of external sounds to a higher degree then when lucid without this substance. Aware of the sound of my own breathing, for example. There were one or two other, euh, external bodily things I was also aware of from my sleeping state (even though it doesnt say on the packet that GalantMind and Viagra are supposed to have similar effects...).

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## Moonbeam

> Something tells me that acoustic induction could work particularly well with GalantaMind, as Ive noticed the following: when lucid after taking this substance Ive often felt aware of external sounds to a higher degree then when lucid without this substance. Aware of the sound of my own breathing, for example.





Good point; I get that too.  But I'm already lucid then, so I don't know if I'd need it.





> There were one or two other, euh, external bodily things I was also aware of from my sleeping state (even though it doesnt say on the packet that GalantMind and Viagra are supposed to have similar effects...).



Yet another advantage.

----------


## DreaminNow

Well, I tried GalantaMind for the third time last night. Lots of more-vivid -than-usual non-lucids, and then, early this morning, a lucid! It was the second since I've been trying. It was longer than the first, but pretty uneventful. Still, I was excited.
So I'm two of three with GalantaMind.
What I did was wake up at 4 a.m., take it, and go to bed. I had to work today, so wasn't in a position to stay up for an hour or anything like that.
What I think I'll do next time is open the tablets and mix them in some juice, and drink that at about 4 a.m. and stay up for 20 minutes. They should absorb faster that way, and hopefully when I go to bed they'll be starting to work.

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## phoenelai

If I went to bed at 10:00 saying it takes anywhere about an hour to fall asleep so say 11! Do you think 2 AM - 5:45 AM is plenty of time for GM to work. I was doing 4 but when having to wake early thats just not enough time.

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## Moonbeam

The Galantamind capsules seem to take effect very quickly.  I just lay back down and and if I'm lucky get to try to WILD right away; or go to sleep instead and start dreaming.  Very fast acting.

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## phoenelai

Here's another interesting note and a question. The file that I've been known to spread around here is comprised of waves (white noise), drones and some auto suggestion statements " this is a dream" etc. What's weird is that in every case.. I never heard the white noise or drones in the dream _only the voices_ which in fact caused the trigger. How is the mind (while sleeping) filtering out the other sound???? Wierd!

Wurd!

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## Moonbeam

I remember the time I used your file and I dreamed that I had gotten it stuck in my head permanently, and I was going to have to listen to it forever.  ::?:  One of those times where you're really glad to wake up and fine out it was a all just a dream.

It did work for me several times too tho. I haven't gotten those out for a while, maybe I'll try it again.

----------


## phoenelai

> I remember the time I used your file and I dreamed that I had gotten it stuck in my head permanently, and I was going to have to listen to it forever.  One of those times where you're really glad to wake up and fine out it was a all just a dream.
> 
> It did work for me several times too tho. I haven't gotten those out for a while, maybe I'll try it again.



Yes very repetitive...which is why I think it's had some success. I think affirmations can be a powerful thing of the mind for sure. Although you have to be able to sleep to sound/music and voices which isn't easy for most which is why audio isn't the miracle fix for all. Moon did you notice that you didn't hear the drones and waves either? Strange huh?

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## Moonbeam

> Moon did you notice that you didn't hear the drones and waves either? Strange huh?



 
No, all I heard were the voices.  So of course in the dream I thought I had been driven insane and was stuck with voices in my head that I couldn't turn off.

The times it worked, I don't remember...I don't think I was aware of either the sounds or the voices.

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## DreaminNow

> If I went to bed at 10:00 saying it takes anywhere about an hour to fall asleep so say 11! Do you think 2 AM - 5:45 AM is plenty of time for GM to work. I was doing 4 but when having to wake early thats just not enough time.



Yes, I think that would be perfect. I think the Galantamind may take 30 to 50 minutes to take effect (maybe less if you open the capsules and mix them in a drink). So then you would have nearly three hours to potentially have lucid dreams.

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## dodobird

After a long break, my 6th report:
Low level Lucid with a WILD.
I woke after 5 hours
After 30 minutes took 4mg galantamine, 500mg choline bitratate, and 200 mg l-theanine
went to sleep after another 15 and attempted WILD.

It took a long long time to fall asleep, and in the end I succeeded with the WILD but the dream was not vivid and was unstable, and I kept waking up and falling back right into the dream.
After I took the peracetam, I had a nice non-lucid dream with better than average dream recall.


Next time I will take the same combination, but I will take them right after waking up, and return to sleep after 30 minutes, and attempt WILD.

Side effects: I feel fine today ( took peracetam ) but I had a weird phenomena while trying the WILD. I had something I don't have a better term for other than head-bumps: like a feeling that your head is bumped from the inside for about a tenth of a second. I got maybe 30 bumps in a series with varying gaps of 2 to 15 seconds.

Sometimes I get these bump serieses when I get up from sleep or from meditation. my theory is that it's caused by quick blood pressure adjustments. I never have them when I lay down, so it must be the effect of the supplements. Did anyone else experience them? In any case they are not painful or disturbing.

----------


## phoenelai

I woke up at 2:00 AM and took 4 MG of GM. I also had looped my lucid mp3 until I woke up. I had really vivid dreams but nothing seem to trigger a lucid, not even the audio.

I have a slight headache this morning but I toook some Piracetam to counter. Not sure if I think supplements will work for me. I've so far had more lucid without them than with them. Who knows...

----------


## lucidus

> There were one or two other, euh, external bodily things I was also aware of from my sleeping state (even though it doesn’t say on the packet that GalantMind and Viagra are supposed to have similar effects...).



AFAIK it is pretty normal for males to have an erection during REM sleep. 
I know of a project here where somebody measures this and gets very accurate statistics of his REM phases using this phenomenon.

By using the supplements I noticed that it is a lot easier to stay awake just until the REM phase starts. 
I even use my building up erection as a sign that REM sleep is just about to start!
This way I am very well prepared for the transition and most of the time doing a WILD in that state is pretty easy.

Of course this doesn't work if your mind is already preoccupied with sexually arousing thoughts, that would of course distort the measurement  :wink2: ..

So let's use this natural REM-detector guys  ::D:

----------


## Moonbeam

> So let's use this natural REM-detector guys



Hey no fair!  :wink2:  I would think you have to be very aware of your body during the transition to notice this.  The supplements do seem to make you more aware of your body while dreaming than usual.

phoenelai, maybe you need 8 mg.   I went straight to that because it seemed more economical.  Are you using the alpha-GPC?  Another thing that helped me was splitting the dose and taking one capsule before bed, then 2 more when I woke up (an hour before the GM dose, if I woke up in time--if not, then with it.)  I think it's worth a try; I think the dreams from the supplements have a different quality to them as well as being easier to achieve.  

I was thinking about it today, and I can't say that I have increased recall, but I think I have more energy during the day for mental tasks, more stamina and more ability to switch from one thing to another.  I haven't noticed any bad side effects at all.

dodobird, maybe the bumping is just sleep paralysis or going into WILD?

----------


## dodobird

> dodobird, maybe the bumping is just sleep paralysis or going into WILD?



Moonbeam, it could be it, but I don't think so because it is too similar to the effect I get sometimes when geting up from rest or meditation. I think it's changes in blood pressure, and the bump feeling is maybe a momentary black-out, caused by oxygen levels in the brain dropping for an instant.

----------


## iadr

I took 8mg of galantamine with 500mg of choline along with a 7mg nicotine patch to bring on this experience. 

(If you have never used supplements before it is best to start with a dose about half this size and don't use the nicotine, because half a dose is plenty strong the first couple of times). 

Having read all of the advantages and disadvantage of using a nicotine patch I decided that having one on for only a couple of hours was probably not going to hurt, so decided to give it a try. 

And immediately after the dream I took piracetam to keep from building up too much of a tolerance to it.

And it worked, it produced a very music lucid dream. 

I began by hearing some nice upbeat pop music in background, almost like carnival music. 

As I concentrate on the music it pulls me right into the dream where I am able to decide what I want to do. 

I first find my house and float into my bedroom where I found my dog and give her a big hug. I then run my hands over her body concentrating on her hips to send healing energy into her hips. She is aware that I am there with her and I feel her love coming back to me. 

I then encounter another spirit entity in my bedroom, but it is weak, so I am able to easily beat it down. 

I decide to float up to our spare bedroom where my wife has placed some things on a couch for me to try to find. As my dog and cat are both aware of my spirit presence they both follow me up to the bedroom, happily bouncing along with me.

When I get up to the spare bedroom there is a small green chair sitting there instead of the green couch, and there are all kinds of things on the chair from a gray sweatshirt, to a book, to something that looks like a small music box with a horse on the top of it, to about 4 of 5 other things. 

As I am looking at all of the things I am concerned that I may not be able to remember all of them, so I reach for my digital recorder to try to record what I am seeing. Unfortunately this distracts me somewhat and I lose focus on some of the things I am looking at so have to concentrate to get back into the dream. 

  I then try to record what I am seeing, although there is nothing on my recording when I get up. 

I then decide to go visit my wife since she has been out of town all week on vacation visiting her son in another state. 

After concentrating on the place my wife is at I find myself flying though the air turning somersaults along the way as I am flying through the air. This took much longer than I expected as I seemed to be flying for 4 or 5 minutes, although it really was quite enjoyable, as I was able to look down at the various scenery along the way. 

Finally I arrive at the place my wife is at to find her out in a large motor boat sitting in the back seat while her son is in the front seat driving. 

I then decide I would like to see her sons new house, so concentrate on that, but instead end up in someplace like a business where they are three dogs, two of which are black and are quite large. 

Although there are people in the business, the dogs are the only ones aware of my presence and are jumping up trying to play with me. 

So I play with them a little bit and pet them on their heads. 

I then find an old Bible that has the cover half way torn off of it, so open it up to find something like a genealogy in it, and my step sons address. 

Before I can shoot off to the address though I become aware that my time has just run out and that the dream is now ending, which it does. 

The most interesting parts of this dream was the nice music I heard all the way through the dream, and all of the animals which were aware of my presence everywhere I went, in addition to the flying adventure as I this is the first time I ever remember turning somersaults while flying.

----------


## Moonbeam

That's a good dream, iadr.  I recently dropped the nicotine patch from my mix and everything's still working.

----------


## iadr

> That's a good dream, iadr. I recently dropped the nicotine patch from my mix and everything's still working.



Thanks Moonbeam. Glad to hear you dropped the patch. I was starting to get worried about you.

I'm not planning to use it again for at least 2 weeks, but am at the point where I need to start mixing things up a bit to keep my brain off guard since I've used only the basic mix of galantamine/choline for about 10 times, and my other supplements of GPC, Yohimbine and Muruna Pruriens have not arrived yet, which left only the nicotine patch that I bought locally to try.

Really didn't notice a whole lot of difference either, except for the music throughout the entire dream.

BTW, I've had no side effects from these supplements after the first time, other than maybe feeling a bit smarter (lol), and a lot more confident that I know I can have lucid dreams anytime I want.
 ::banana::

----------


## phoenelai

> Hey no fair!  I would think you have to be very aware of your body during the transition to notice this.  The supplements do seem to make you more aware of your body while dreaming than usual.
> 
> phoenelai, maybe you need 8 mg.   I went straight to that because it seemed more economical.  Are you using the alpha-GPC?  Another thing that helped me was splitting the dose and taking one capsule before bed, then 2 more when I woke up (an hour before the GM dose, if I woke up in time--if not, then with it.)  I think it's worth a try; I think the dreams from the supplements have a different quality to them as well as being easier to achieve.  
> 
> I was thinking about it today, and I can't say that I have increased recall, but I think I have more energy during the day for mental tasks, more stamina and more ability to switch from one thing to another.  I haven't noticed any bad side effects at all.
> 
> dodobird, maybe the bumping is just sleep paralysis or going into WILD?



I'm using the Choline Bitrate (500mg) when I tested the combo. My GM was ony 4mg. Maybe I do need 8. Are you thinking 8mg with choline or byitself?

----------


## Moonbeam

With.  The first time I tried it, I took 2 capsules of alpha-GPC (600 mg, 300 mg active ingredient) then an hour or so later I took an 8mg Galantamind.  I went straight back to bed, into an immediate WILD. That was an amazing experience (described earlier in this thread).

I think I'm taking it a little too often to replicate those first couple experiences, but I am doing it infrequently enough to keep it working probably 75% of the time to get lucid, and the other times with really vivid long dreams.

----------


## DreaminNow

I will post about my fourth GalantaMind try. In the future, I probably won't post about each try; I'm convinced it works.
It worked last night, making my record with GalantaMind 3-out-of-4. I actually had, I believe, four lucid dreams this morning. A couple were very brief, less than 30 seconds. The others were longer, probably a few minutes although it's hard to say for sure.
Also of note is that I had my first WILD. I hadn't put much effort into WILD before, and I didn't this time either. I decided to try it on the spur of the moment, and found that, with the GalantaMind working, it was the easiest thing in the world.
My complaint is that all of my lucid dreams so far (all with GalantaMind) have been a little lacking in action. Usually there are no other people around and I end up wandering in a lonely world.
So now that I know I can have lucid dreams, I think I need to advance my skills and inject a little life into my dreamworld, learning to control the various elements. Also, I now see WILD as a real possibility to develop. 
I also want to learn to have the dreams on my own; I think of the GalantaMind as my training wheels, and now I want to learn to ride the bike on my own.
All in all, though, I have to say: Lucid dreaming is awesome.

----------


## phoenelai

> I will post about my fourth GalantaMind try. In the future, I probably won't post about each try; I'm convinced it works.
> It worked last night, making my record with GalantaMind 3-out-of-4. I actually had, I believe, four lucid dreams this morning. A couple were very brief, less than 30 seconds. The others were longer, probably a few minutes although it's hard to say for sure.
> Also of note is that I had my first WILD. I hadn't put much effort into WILD before, and I didn't this time either. I decided to try it on the spur of the moment, and found that, with the GalantaMind working, it was the easiest thing in the world.
> My complaint is that all of my lucid dreams so far (all with GalantaMind) have been a little lacking in action. Usually there are no other people around and I end up wandering in a lonely world.
> So now that I know I can have lucid dreams, I think I need to advance my skills and inject a little life into my dreamworld, learning to control the various elements. Also, I now see WILD as a real possibility to develop. 
> I also want to learn to have the dreams on my own; I think of the GalantaMind as my training wheels, and now I want to learn to ride the bike on my own.
> All in all, though, I have to say: Lucid dreaming is awesome.




Dosage please?

----------


## DreaminNow

8mg. That's the amount I've taken each of the last three times. The first time it was 4mg (which was effective). One of the times I took 8mg, it was not effective.

----------


## DreaminNow

I would like to mention that this morning, I had my first no-supplement lucid dream. It was brief, and still pretty uneventful -- but hey, at least now I know I can do it.
I think having the lucid dreams with the supplements gave me the confidence and know-how I needed to have one naturally, with no supplements.
I would recommend galantamine to beginners as a set of "training wheels," something you can eventually wean yourself from.

----------


## Moonbeam

That's good, that you do it without too.

----------


## conisag

I like the sound of supplmenting with b6 seems extremely effective

----------


## iadr

I take 1200mg of GPC about an hour before taking 8mg of galantamine and 500mg of choline, and then go back to bed at about 04:30 using the WBTB method. 

An hour later I feel images begin to form as the supplements kick in and feel my dog beside my bed growling at me as she chews on my arm. As this is something she never does, I realize that I was dreaming, so begin repeating to myself that I was dreaming. 

I find a light cord and pull on it several times which convinces me even further that I am dreaming as the light does nothing when I pull on the cord. 

I then begin floating around my house, although my house looks much different than it normally does as there are all kinds of different things in it that are not normally there. After floating around my wife for a while and making her aware of my presence I decide to float over to my neighbors house. 

When I get to my neighbors house I meet him as he is coming out of his door. He is very aware of my presence but mistakes me for someone else at first as he calls me Bob, but then realizes who I am. 

I then decide to take a trip to the moon so raise my hands in the air (lol) and think of going to the moon.   

It seems to take forever, but suddenly I feel myself inside of a space  ship, which is shaking violently.   

A small window appears in front of me that I am able to look out of and I see a large sticker tree in front of where my space ship is landing. 

As I look out I see a whole landscape of these kinds of trees. 

After landing, I float out of my space ship and find that the scenery is now different, as it is now rolling hills of grass with a highway and a few houses spaced out along the highway. 

I feel my wifes presence beside me as I relax in the grass, and as I enjoy the peacefulness of this place. 

I decide that this would be a nice place to come back and visit anytime I just want to be alone and relax. 

Although I know this is not what the moon looks like, it must have been what I wanted it to look like in my dream.

----------


## dodobird

> I like the sound of supplmenting with b6 seems extremely effective



I think B6 might only work if taken at bedtime, and not at WBTB.

----------


## dodobird

Last night I took 133mg Magnesium oxide, and 108.3mg vitamin B6 before going to bed, and also a cup of pepper-mint tea. ( The odd number of the B6 is because there was 8.3 mg B6 in the Magnesium tablet ).
I woke up after 4.5 hours, got up and went back to bed, and tried to WILD. After a while I had trouble keeping still, and since I had to wake rather early in the morning I gave up on the WILD and tried to sleep.
After a few minutes of laying in bed waiting to fall asleep I got a series of "head bumps", ( The same ones that I felt in my previous Galantamine+choine attempt ). After a few head bumps, I entered a lucid dream that lasted about 15 minutes, so in the end the WILD was successful.
What is interesting is that it was easy to enter the dream by WILD, in the same way it was for me with Galantamine, and I even got the same head bumps.

In several experiments that I made, I found that after drinking pepper-mint tea before bedtime, my dreams were are generally amusing and cheerful, and this time was no exception: During the dream I pretended that I am an invisible ghost, and I passed through DC's to freak them out a little ( because they sensed the ghost passing through them, but didn't know what it is ). Dogs had no problem to see me, and so I played with them.
Another element in the dream reflecting the cheerful mood of the pepper-mint: I looked at a book shelf at an all-night launderette, and it contained only books by Terry Pratchett, and comic books by Don Martin.

----------


## Moonbeam

^^Interesting.  I'm looking for some combinations that don't include galantamine so I can save that for once a week.

----------


## iadr

> ^^Interesting. I'm looking for some combinations that don't include galantamine so I can save that for once a week.



So am I. We need something to use the rest of the week since the galantamine does not seem to work very well if used more than once or twice a week.

I've tried mixing cinnamon with vanilla soymilk and drinking that, but only get vivid dreams from that. At least it tastes pretty good.  ::D: 

I've also been experimenting with very small amounts of yohimbine, but have had no luck with it at all. :Sad:

----------


## three and four

I agree, Galantamind overused loses its potency. However, I find the stuff so good for memory (and probably general functioning of the brain) that I'm considering taking every day just for this (even though it might well mean no more GM lucids...).

----------


## DreaminNow

Had another lucid dream this morning. All natural, no GalantaMind.

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## Moonbeam

> I've tried mixing cinnamon with vanilla soymilk and drinking that, but only get vivid dreams from that. At least it tastes pretty good.



Sounds like dessert to me. :smiley: 





> I've also been experimenting with very small amounts of yohimbine, but have had no luck with it at all.



Same here.  Maybe it is the tiny amounts I'm using.

I've used DMAE, EGCG, and L-theanine with good results; but I still haven't figured out if that interferes with the receptors in a way that messes up galantamine. I asked Yushack but he hasn't answered yet.  I may get my answer this weekend, if the galantamine doesn't work.

Once I added mucana pruriens, but I wasn't sure if it added anything--more experimentation is needed with that.

----------


## Phydeaux_3

Well... no lucidity since I've started taking the Galantamine+choline BUT, I HAVE been dreaming like a house on fire. I've been having so many dreams that I can't even begin to write them all down, usually I can't even remember the ones before the last one, it's almost as if they "replace" each other. I'll have to start jotting them down bedside or I'll never remember any of them except for the very last one.

I have NEVER dreamt this much in my life. The first night I took 1 pill at bedtime and another when I got up to piss, sometime between 1&2-ish. The second night I doubled that, 2 at bedtime & 2 at peetime. Last night I took 3 at bedtime & 3 at pisstime. All I can say is WOW! I'm going to give it a rest for a while as I know that tolerance builds fast & I don't want to "burn it out" so fast.

I know that I should be compounding this with journaling but I just haven't been able to "keep it up" since I started with the pills. I should have, I'm positive my results would have been more impressive. My journal entry from the first night can be found here.

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## iadr

> Well... no lucidity since I've started taking the Galantamine+choline BUT, I HAVE been dreaming like a house on fire. I've been having so many dreams that I can't even begin to write them all down, usually I can't even remember the ones before the last one, it's almost as if they "replace" each other. I'll have to start jotting them down bedside or I'll never remember any of them except for the very last one.
> 
> I have NEVER dreamt this much in my life. The first night I took 1 pill at bedtime and another when I got up to piss, sometime between 1&2-ish. The second night I doubled that, 2 at bedtime & 2 at peetime. Last night I took 3 at bedtime & 3 at pisstime. All I can say is WOW! I'm going to give it a rest for a while as I know that tolerance builds fast & I don't want to "burn it out" so fast.



Wow, that's a lot of galantamine Phydeaux.  I'm surprised you can even get to sleep after taking that much.  You must be a good sleeper.  I'd be wide awake the rest of the night if I took that much.  

As you've discovered, galantamine is not a magic pill for creating lucid dreams, but is rather something that can make it more likely for someone to have a lucid dream by increasing the number of dreams that they remember and by increasing their awareness in those dreams.

A person still needs to work on learning how to enter their dreams by using either a WILD technique or by learning to become aware that they are dreaming by doing a reality check in their dreams in order to become lucid.

At least you're remembering a lot of dreams which is a really good start.

----------


## funkychimp

Hi,
   Ive been following this thread for a long time and just wanted to chip in.

I had been trying to have a LD for about 6-7 months with no success so I decided to buy some of the Dreampills.

The first night I took one together with a short WBTB I had my first lucid experience.

Since then I have had about 50% success rate. The lucids I have had have been short and very low level, but hey it got me on the LD ladder so to speak.

I take 2 pill at once which are 800 G & 400 C combined.

I have found that they do not seem to work 2 nights on the trot. So I only take them once a week.

I also do not like the idea of having to take a pill to LD so now have a little LD  experience under my belt I will be looking to try and LD with out them.

But for anyone who has never had a LD and is struggling, this may be the ticket.

Thanks

Paulh

----------


## Moonbeam

> But for anyone who has never had a LD and is struggling, this may be the ticket.



Let us know if this does this trick, and you have natural LD's too.  I haven't improved my natural WILDing capabilities yet, but I still have hope to do it as easily as with the supplements someday.

----------


## TrakTaneT

What about DMAE? (Dimethylaminoethanol) It is nootropic and it should to enhance production of acetylcholine. Do you know something about it?

----------


## Moonbeam

I've had luck with it for lucidity; in combination with L-theanine and EGCG.

----------


## TrakTaneT

another idea..some people have problems to fall asleep with galantamine, then what about to take it with melatonine? is it safe?

This is very interesting topic indeed. Certainly I&#180;m going to purchase this stuff and try it myself. I hope it will help me get through this dry period. 

So this is the question:  how is it when you stop with that? Has it got some long-term effects after breaking the usage?

----------


## dodobird

> another idea..some people have problems to fall asleep with galantamine, then what about to take it with melatonine? is it safe?
> 
> This is very interesting topic indeed. Certainly I´m going to purchase this stuff and try it myself. I hope it will help me get through this dry period. 
> 
> So this is the question: how is it when you stop with that? Has it got some long-term effects after breaking the usage?



Melatonine is supposed to repress REM, so it is not a good idea to take it with galantamine.

----------


## three and four

I've tried. Melatonin will indeed help you get to sleep, even if you've taken Galantamind. Chances of lucidity are increased, but in my case the lucid was murky, unclear and recall was bad.

----------


## TrakTaneT

fck, I could use those 22€ for better things.

And this is the question I&#180;d like to know anwer to:
how is it when you stop with galantamine? Has it got some positive long-term effects on dream recall and lucidity after breaking the usage? Don&#180;t you become more sensitive to selfmade acetylcholine like is it with serotonine and antidepressives? (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors)

Regarding melatonine - I have found this.: _Research has shown that only 0.3 mg of Melatonin is necessary to induce sleep. At this low dose, REM sleep is not suppressed and therefore Melatonin can be used simultaneously with Galantamine (or other supplements) if falling back to sleep is a problem (L-theanine can also be used this way and has other advantages over Melatonin) _

----------


## lucidus

> another idea..some people have problems to fall asleep with galantamine, then what about to take it with melatonine? is it safe?




Try 200 mg of L-theanine, that is just perfect for falling back to sleep without  suppressing REM.

----------


## C-lion

Alright...I tried 4 mg. Galantamine with 250 mg. Choline last night after sleeping around 5 hrs. I could not get back to sleep, and am thinking of trying again with double the dose and adding L-Theanine at the above recommendation. Wish me luck...
One question...what is the recommended dosage of Piracetam to flush the system?

----------


## dodobird

2400mg of Piracetam.

You can take it all at once, but if it causes you a headache then the take 800mg at 3 times seperatly during the day after your attempt.

----------


## C-lion

> 2400mg of Piracetam.
> 
> You can take it all at once, but if it causes you a headache then the take 800mg at 3 times seperatly during the day after your attempt.



Thanks...apparently I have to order this off the internet, but I feel it will be worth it.

----------


## DreaminNow

leave the galantamine by your bed ... wake up after 5 or 6 hors of sleep, take it, then go directly back to sleep. you'll be asleep before it has time to kick in, and thus getting back to sleep shouldn't be much of a problem.

----------


## C-lion

Well, I used this combo again last night with moderate success...I added some Theanine to help go back to sleep, but ended up taking Trytophan after having no luck with the Theanine. So I became lucid after I dreamed I was walking down a dirt road towards a waterfall. I told myself I wanted to fly up to the waterfall, and did get off the ground but just kind of floated aimlessly around above the road.

----------


## C-lion

Okay, I am hoping someone can advise me...I have been having trouble falling back asleep after taking Galantamine and Choline. I keep them beside my bed, set the alarm, and take them, then immediately try to go back to sleep. Even with the Tryptophan (which I don't want to take) it seems very difficult, either b/c I am excited or b/c they are stimulants or both. 
Does anyone know of something I can take that won't interfere with REM that I can take to help me sleep after taking these?

----------


## Thor

> Okay, I am hoping someone can advise me...I have been having trouble falling back asleep after taking Galantamine and Choline. I keep them beside my bed, set the alarm, and take them, then immediately try to go back to sleep. Even with the Tryptophan (which I don't want to take) it seems very difficult, either b/c I am excited or b/c they are stimulants or both. 
> Does anyone know of something I can take that won't interfere with REM that I can take to help me sleep after taking these?



Take 0.3mg melatonin. 0.3mg tablets are not that common, so you may need to cut up a 1mg tablet. This dose is just big enough to help you fall asleep, but not big enough to suppress REM for very long.

----------


## dodobird

> Take 0.3mg melatonin. 0.3mg tablets are not that common, so you may need to cut up a 1mg tablet. This dose is just big enough to help you fall asleep, but not big enough to suppress REM for very long.



100-200mg of L-Theanine may help too.

----------


## C-lion

I have tried Theanine, and it did nothing. Actually, I took Theanine, then Trytophan, then Nyquil...at that point, I just wanted to fall asleep! ::shock:: 

Yesterday I went to the health food store and bought 3.5 mg. tabs of Melatonin...I guess I will be taking a razorblade to them!

Thanks for the help, ya'll :smiley:

----------


## skywatcher

I've been experimenting with the 4mg capsules.  The first time I took it, I waited an hour before going back to bed.  I could not fall asleep.  The next two times, I woke up, took one, and then went right back to sleep.  Both times I had multiple, vivid lucid dreams.  It was crazy.  Theres definatly something to this stuff.

----------


## Stupified

I think mine will be in the mail tomorrow! I'm really looking forward to trying it! I also ordered the book "Advanced Lucid Dreaming". 

I may start a new thread after I try it. Whadaya think?

----------


## Stupified

But I ordered Galantamine not Galantamind. 

Here is what my plan is - from the posts in this thread since I don't have the book yet.

*  Have B5 and Alpha GPC in my system during the day.
*  Take 5HTP and Theanine before going to sleep (maybe an hour before).
*  Wake up after 4.5 to 5 hours of sleep and take Galantamine and Choline.
*  Go back to bed. I think I will try to sleep because I'm pretty sure I will dream and become lucid rather than trying to enter a dream state while I'm awake.
*  Wake and take Piracetam if necessary.

I may not take all of these supplements. But, since I know I am only going to be doing this on weekends or days off until I know how it effects me, I want to have all the tools at my dissposal.

I have found a good site to order Galantamine and Piracetam. You can also get Alpha GPC there. RelentlessImprovement.com

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## iadr

> I think mine will be in the mail tomorrow! I'm really looking forward to trying it! I also ordered the book "Advanced Lucid Dreaming". 
> 
> I may start a new thread after I try it. Whadaya think?



Just a word of advise from someone who has made over 30 attempts with it now.  

It really helps to go slow and not take it too often so that you don't build up a tolerance to it.

Since I started taking 3 full days off between attempts it has now worked for me 13 times in a row, so I am very close to an 80 percent success rate with it now.

You might want to visit the Advanced Lucid Dreaming site also when it comes back up after the first of the year, because you should be able to find some useful information from the Message board when it comes back up.

http://www.advancedld.com/temp_home.html

Good luck in your attempts!

----------


## Stupified

Thank you, and to all that have gone before me and posted here!!!

I am really, really glad that I got this info! I bought Calea Z and just got a headache and African Dream Root but only tryed the tea once.  

Have you been able to do the things you wanted to in your dreams or are you just having fun with it?

----------


## iadr

> Have you been able to do the things you wanted to in your dreams or are you just having fun with it?



Yes, and no.  

There are a lot of things I have been able to do like flying, and I have had more lucid dreams lasting 30 minutes or longer than I would have ever imagined possible since starting the supplements.  

But there are a lot of things that haven't worked the way I expected them to, like the experiment I did having my wife put some things on a couch in our spare bedroom without telling me what they were, and then my going up there during a lucid dream which seemed like an out of my body experience, and trying to figure out what she put there.

When I got up to the bedroom in what seemed like an obe, the couch was gone (lol), but I found it against another wall after looking around, and then another time when I tried the experiment the couch was completely gone and there was a small chair in its place.

Not sure what causes things to be so different when in the other realm, but it was not at all what I expected.

One thing to be aware of when taking the supplements is that you might find yourself in an unusual situation from time to time.

For example, I ended up in places where I heard voices all around me several times, which was a little nerve racking at first, because I had never experienced that before.

And several times I have found myself floating face down about a foot above the floor in my bedroom.

And then there are the times I felt like I was laying face down in my bed feeling like I was going to slide right out of my bed, even though I was actually laying on my back.

And lately, although I am laying flat on my back I feel myself rolling counter clockwise real fast 3 or 4 times after which I am out of my body.

A good practice that I use before going to sleep is to expand my energy out from myself, feeling my energy filling the entire room I am in.

This helped me 4 or 5 times when I met up with some unfriendly entities out in that other realm as I just expanded white light out from myself and blew them away.

Best of luck to you.  Let us know how it goes.

----------


## dodobird

> But I ordered Galantamine not Galantamind. 
> 
> Here is what my plan is - from the posts in this thread since I don't have the book yet.
> 
> *  Have B5 and Alpha GPC in my system during the day.
> *  Take 5HTP and Theanine before going to sleep (maybe an hour before).
> *  Wake up after 4.5 to 5 hours of sleep and take Galantamine and Choline.
> *  Go back to bed. I think I will try to sleep because I'm pretty sure I will dream and become lucid rather than trying to enter a dream state while I'm awake.
> *  Wake and take Piracetam if necessary.
> ...



A few notes/corrections:
1) You are not supposed to take Alpha GPC during the day. You can take it the same with the Galantamine for a possible longer LD because it takes a longer time to reach max plasma levels than the Galantamine/choline combination.
2) L-Theanine you are also supposed to take when doing the WBTB, to help you fall asleep faster, though some reported that it doesn't help much.
3) 5HTP you can indeed take before you go to sleep, but it may reduce or improve dream vividness and chances of lucidity. You should first try 5HTP and Galantamine/Choline seperately, and only on later attempts try to combine, because these are two different approaches: 5HTP works by REM rebound, and Galantamine/Choline by direct REM enhancement.

----------


## Thor

Stupified, I agree with Dodobird that it's pointless to have alpha-GPC in the system during the day. On the other hand, if you want to use 5-HTP it would be a good idea to have B6 in the system during the day, since synthesis of serotonin from 5-HTP requires a B6-dependent enzyme.

----------


## Stupified

I made my first attempt lastnight. Next time I will only use Galantamine, Choline, and Alpha GPC. 

I tend to sleep soundly but I think the 5HTP, an hour before bed, might have   had a negative impact. I understood the rebound effect (I think) but I don't really know how long 5HTP stays in my system. The one I bought does not say extended release and is 50mg (maybe too much?).

When the alarm went off I took the Galantamine and Choline. I went back to sleep and the alarm went off again. I must have hit snooze several times because when I actually shut it off it was an hour later (6 to 7 snoozes).

I remember faint awareness of dreaming but I feel I was too deep in sleep.

I thought B5 and Alpha GPC were good if they were in your system (brain) when you took the G+C combo. Now I can't even find B5 on the advancedld site. Wasn't it there last week?  

I'll be getting the book in less than a week. My next attempt will be Sat. nite. It sounds like the best bet is to take the G+C combo alone to start. Just to make sure, you guys are saying if you take Alpha GPC at the same time it will extend your dreams or dream session. So I will probobly take that as well.

All the other supplements can enhance the experience or number of them but it seems to be a delicate balancing act. And until I have some lucid dreams with the G+C combo and I have read the book, I'm not going to bother with the other stuff.

----------


## iadr

> It sounds like the best bet is to take the G+C combo alone to start. Just to make sure, you guys are saying if you take Alpha GPC at the same time it will extend your dreams or dream session. So I will probobly take that as well.
> 
> All the other supplements can enhance the experience or number of them but it seems to be a delicate balancing act. And until I have some lucid dreams with the G+C combo and I have read the book, I'm not going to bother with the other stuff.



Yes, it is recommended to start with just the Galantamine/Choline combo until you have made at least 5 lucid attempts with it, and I think the reason for that is that taking the other things along with it can be sort of tricky, and make it where the G+C combo don't always work, because they can make it more difficult to get back to sleep.

That has happened to me more than once when I have taken the Alpha-GPC along with the Galantamine/Choline.

You can have plenty long lucids lasting from 30 minutes to an hour on just the Galantamine/Choline alone, so I would stick to that at the beginning.

Also, very good advice from dodobird and Thor on the other supplements.

As each person is different, you may have to experiement a little to find just the right technique that works for you Stupified, but it sounds like you have a good plan.

Good luck!

----------


## dodobird

> Stupified, I agree with Dodobird that it's pointless to have alpha-GPC in the system during the day. On the other hand, if you want to use 5-HTP it would be a good idea to have B6 in the system during the day, since synthesis of serotonin from 5-HTP requires a B6-dependent enzyme.



Yuschak mentioned that it's probably not a good idea to take both 5-HTP and B6 supplements.
B6 indeed helps to convert the 5-HTP into serotonin, but if there is too much B6 in the system, then the 5-HTP will be converted to serotonin before crossing the blood brain barrier, and then it will not be able to enter the brain. He also mentioned that there is some evidence that serotonin synthesized out side of the brain may be bad for the heart.





> I made my first attempt lastnight. Next time I will only use Galantamine, Choline, and Alpha GPC.



I think it's better to wait with the Alpha GPC until you have some success with galantamine/choline alone because you may need to make some tests and adjustments and it will be difficult to determine what effect each supplement has if you combine them. You may need to adjust the doses, the time of waking up, how long to stay up, whether to try WILD or go for DILD. Also Alpha GPC, is very expensive, so it's better to save it for when you are more ready, and have a better chance of success.

Also the supplements may cause side effects. There is a possibility that the side effects will not be minor to you, so you should start slowly, using a small dose and without combining.

As to your question on B5: B5 is the Acetyil part of Acetylcholine. Together with Choline it forms Acetylcholine. You don't need it in large amounts, so if you are eating a balanced diet you should have enough of it. If you want to be sure, you can take B5 (pantothenic acid) or a multivitamin tablet in the morning, or eat sunflower seeds that are rich in it.

----------


## Stupified

Okay, So I've decided....Just the Galantamine and Choline.

I have:

Galantamine Hydrobromide.............................8mg Tablet
(leucojum aestivum) extract (root)

Choline...........................................  ..........310mg Capsule
(from 650mg choline bitartrate)

Is one each best? Should I crush the tablet and open the capsule and put them in liquid?

----------


## dodobird

At first cut the Galantamine tablet in half. start with 4mg, it may be enough for you.
the Choline dose is ok.





> Okay, So I've decided....Just the Galantamine and Choline.
> 
> I have:
> 
> Galantamine Hydrobromide.............................8mg Tablet
> (leucojum aestivum) extract (root)
> 
> Choline...........................................  ..........310mg Capsule
> (from 650mg choline bitartrate)
> ...

----------


## Thor

> Yuschak mentioned that it's probably not a good idea to take both 5-HTP and B6 supplements.
> B6 indeed helps to convert the 5-HTP into serotonin, but if there is too much B6 in the system, then the 5-HTP will be converted to serotonin before crossing the blood brain barrier, and then it will not be able to enter the brain. He also mentioned that there is some evidence that serotonin synthesized out side of the brain may be bad for the heart.



Yes, that's what he says in _Advanced Lucid Dreaming_. However, both of these claims are contradicted by the information on the 5-HTP Facts and Fiction page. Specifically:
"Q: Does vitamin B6 cause 5-HTP to rapidly convert into serotonin before it even reaches the brain? Does this mean you don't get an increase of brain serotonin?

A: No, actually quite the opposite. In one notable study on rats, vitamin B6 deficiency was deliberately induced. It was discovered that very little serotonin was produced in the rat brain when deficient in B6.

In other experiments with monkeys and rats, the presence of ample amounts of B6 - even to the point of "moderate excess" - increased production of serotonin (in the brain) from 5-HTP by up to 60%. Once again, it is clear that 5-HTP raises brain serotonin levels - with or without carbidopa or benserazide, and with or without vitamin B6. But the evidence indicates that it's better to take 5-HTP without carbidopa or benserazide and with vitamin B6.

Q: I've heard that the elevation of blood serotonin levels (caused by taking 5-HTP) can cause coronary artery spasm, abnormal platelet aggregation, and increased risk of death by sudden heart attack.

A: That would certainly be a concern, if it were true. However, we could find nothing in the scientific literature to support these contentions."

----------


## dodobird

I don't know, thats sounds a bit fishy, I mean how did the asker 'hear' about coronary artery spasm etc. if no such reports are found in the scientific literature. Anyway, it will be interesting to ask Yuschak about that when the message board in his site goes back online, which may be quite soon if he's on schedule.







> Yes, that's what he says in _Advanced Lucid Dreaming_. However, both of these claims are contradicted by the information on the 5-HTP Facts and Fiction page. Specifically:"Q: Does vitamin B6 cause 5-HTP to rapidly convert into serotonin before it even reaches the brain? Does this mean you don't get an increase of brain serotonin?
> 
> A: No, actually quite the opposite. In one notable study on rats, vitamin B6 deficiency was deliberately induced. It was discovered that very little serotonin was produced in the rat brain when deficient in B6.
> 
> In other experiments with monkeys and rats, the presence of ample amounts of B6 - even to the point of "moderate excess" - increased production of serotonin (in the brain) from 5-HTP by up to 60%. Once again, it is clear that 5-HTP raises brain serotonin levels - with or without carbidopa or benserazide, and with or without vitamin B6. But the evidence indicates that it's better to take 5-HTP without carbidopa or benserazide and with vitamin B6.
> 
> Q: I've heard that the elevation of blood serotonin levels (caused by taking 5-HTP) can cause coronary artery spasm, abnormal platelet aggregation, and increased risk of death by sudden heart attack.
> 
> A: That would certainly be a concern, if it were true. However, we could find nothing in the scientific literature to support these contentions."

----------


## Thor

> I don't know, thats sounds a bit fishy, I mean how did the asker 'hear' about coronary artery spasm etc. if no such reports are found in the scientific literature. Anyway, it will be interesting to ask Yuschak about that when the message board in his site goes back online, which may be quite soon if he's on schedule.



Well, I went back and found the passage in the book where this is discussed (p. 102), and what he actually says is: "There is some speculation (although no clinical research that I could find) that theorizes building up serotonin in the blood rather than in the brain could cause heart damage.  This theory has not been confirmed or denied but should not be an issue unless you are taking large amounts of vitamin B6 simultaneously with 5-HTP." So it seems that both Yuschak and the above mentioned web page are saying that this is all speculation without any clinical evidence to back it up.

----------


## moe007

I didnt know that galantamine is prescription. I went to the fucking supplement store and i looked like a retard when the guy told me that it was a pharmaceutical drug. Choline on the other hand, isnt sold separately, it is only found in a combination pill with other supplements.  ::roll:: 

I need to get some.

----------


## DreaminNow

Galantamine is in the weird position of being sold as both a prescription drug and as an over the counter supplement. Don't ask me how the supplement companies get away with. One of them was warned by a letter from the FDA a few years ago, I know. Maybe because it's a compound found in nature.
I don't think galantamine is often found in health food stores. You generally need to order it online.

----------


## moe007

> Galantamine is in the weird position of being sold as both a prescription drug and as an over the counter supplement. Don't ask me how the supplement companies get away with. One of them was warned by a letter from the FDA a few years ago, I know. Maybe because it's a compound found in nature.
> I don't think galantamine is often found in health food stores. You generally need to order it online.



I dont want to buy it online, im going to see if i can find it somewhere in-store first. I know Sprouts has it, its in their inventory, but i couldnt find it and the damn lady tried looking it up on the computer and she read pharmaceutical drug and shes like NO NO NO NO U NEED PRESCRIPTION. i was like  :Bang head:  bitch.

----------


## Arthurium

Has anyone tried taking 1mg of galantamine ? It would seem that 1-2mg might suffice for the lucid state, then the effects it has on your daily life would be a lot less.

----------


## unseen wombat

I've taken 4 mg now 3 times and haven't had any earth shattering LD's, just a few little ones. However, I haven't had any side effects either. Everyone's different though. So if you think 1 mg would work for you, go for it. I'm going to try 8 mg next time.

----------


## iadr

> Has anyone tried taking 1mg of galantamine ? It would seem that 1-2mg might suffice for the lucid state, then the effects it has on your daily life would be a lot less.



Very good idea to start with a small dose Arthurium. The first time I tried the galantamine I took 3mg of it with 250mg of choline, and it was so powerful, I was glad I had not taken any more than I had.

It was only after I had taken it about 15 times that I finally increased the dosage to 8mg.

----------


## heinerich

Does taking only Choline (without galantamine) works? Why?

What about Choline + Vit B5? and Why?

I ask that because I don't find ANY galantamine (without prescriptions, those are for treating Alzheimer) around here, and GalantaMind is not shipped to Brazil. 

Is it mandatory to take Galantamine in order for it to work?

----------


## heinerich

What about L-taurine?

----------


## Zimmerman

I haven't posted in this thread yet and just thought that I'd mention that I'm another success story.  I've used these supplements together every weekend for the past 4 weeks to keep my tolerance low and have gotten lucid on each attempt.  Two of the nights I tried it I had WILDs, the other nights DILDs.  This is pretty amazing to me as I've only completely WILDed once until taking this combo, and I've always found WILD to be the hardest technique.  After poppin a few of these babies in during WBTB however I didn't find it hard at all to achieve SP and strange floating sensations, eventually making it into the dream.  I still haven't achieved the 30-90 minute long lucid dreams that Yuschak describes having after taking the supplements, but I hope that I can eventually get there.





> Does taking only Choline (without galantamine) works? Why?



Galantamine is the key ingredient in the combo, the Choline helps the Galantamine work efficiently.  GPC has an effect on dreams by itself I believe but choline salts won't do much without being combined with Galantamine.

----------


## dodobird

> Does taking only Choline (without galantamine) works? Why?
> 
> What about Choline + Vit B5? and Why?
> 
> I ask that because I don't find ANY galantamine (without prescriptions, those are for treating Alzheimer) around here, and GalantaMind is not shipped to Brazil. 
> 
> Is it mandatory to take Galantamine in order for it to work?



Try to order online a different brand than GalantaMind. There are several brands, such as Relentless Improvement and DreamAmins.

----------


## unseen wombat

From what I understand, the choline is what actually causes the vividness and lucidness. Galantamine is just to disrupt the mechanism in your brain that prevents an excess amount of choline being present. 

So if your brain has as much choline as it thinks it needs, taking more choline won't help, because it'll just be shut out. Galantamine prevents that from happening. If on the other hand, you have a choline deficiency to begin with, taking choline alone will help.

----------


## heinerich

Ok.
Thanks very much for your replies.

Relentless Improvements seem to be able to ship to Brazil.
It costs U$112 to get them here.

Here, the order would be:
Galantamine 8mg (which can be cut in half) 60 capsules
Alpha GPC 600mg (Choline) 60 capsules

How long would those last? I calculated 6 months, since you take it every three days. 

And... has anyone experienced side effects from taking those every three days? What about any other results besides the dreaming improvement?

----------


## heinerich

I decided to NOT buy any of those until I feel confident about it. I don't want to mess my real life in order to improve my dream life. It also *seems to me* that the combination looses it power over time. I mean, the body gets used to it, so there is no effect anymore. Almost an addiction, does anyone agree?

----------


## dodobird

> Ok.
> Thanks very much for your replies.
> 
> Relentless Improvements seem to be able to ship to Brazil.
> It costs U$112 to get them here.
> 
> Here, the order would be:
> Galantamine 8mg (which can be cut in half) 60 capsules
> Alpha GPC 600mg (Choline) 60 capsules



Note that Alpha GPC is _not_ Choline. Choline comes as Choline Bitartrate or Choline Citrate, and it is much cheaper than Alpha GPC.

Alpha GPC can be added for possibly longer LD's, but so far I and some others had sufficiently long LD's without it. In any case, you can do without it as it is expensive.

As to your second post, the supplements do not seem become uneffective over time, according to the reports in this thread, if you don't take them too often, and take Peracetam. People here also did not report significant side effects, though Galantamine may indeed cause side effects to some people.

----------


## heinerich

> Note that Alpha GPC is _not_ Choline. Choline comes as Choline Bitartrate or Choline Citrate, and it is much cheaper than Alpha GPC.
> 
> Alpha GPC can be added for possibly longer LD's, but so far I and some others had sufficiently long LD's without it. In any case, you can do without it as it is expensive.
> 
> As to your second post, the supplements do not seem become uneffective over time, according to the reports in this thread, if you don't take them too often, and take Peracetam. People here also did not report significant side effects, though Galantamine may indeed cause side effects to some people.



Thank you tons!  :wink2:

----------


## ~Speed

Hello all,

I am yet another satisfied customer  :smiley:  using LDS.

I am using basic formula (galant. + choline) plus L-theanine. I sometimes add to this mix alpha GPC, yohimbe, EGCG etc... I used piracetam a few times with somewhat negative side-effects, mainly mild headache.

Success rate is about 80%. Failures occur on the nights when I just cant fall back asleep. So far, all attempts at inducing LD by adding yohimbe to basic mix have resulted in insomnia.

My question:

have any of you tried to use LDS for the afternoon naps? I never tried it, but it may actually work, I think.

 :smiley: 
tnx.

----------


## dodobird

> Well, I went back and found the passage in the book where this is discussed (p. 102), and what he actually says is: "There is some speculation (although no clinical research that I could find) that theorizes building up serotonin in the blood rather than in the brain could cause heart damage. This theory has not been confirmed or denied but should not be an issue unless you are taking large amounts of vitamin B6 simultaneously with 5-HTP." So it seems that both Yuschak and the above mentioned web page are saying that this is all speculation without any clinical evidence to back it up.



OK, how about taking the 5-HTP about an hour before sleep, and the B6 right before sleep? This way the 5-HTP may have time to enter the brain before the B6 converts it.

----------


## Thor

> OK, how about taking the 5-HTP about an hour before sleep, and the B6 right before sleep? This way the 5-HTP may have time to enter the brain before the B6 converts it.



Well, Yuschak seems to suggest the other way round; that you ensure that B6 levels are adequate, and then you take the 5-HTP before betime.

Anyway, I looked further into this and it seems that the origin of the heart damage rumors is a series of Usenet posts by Steven B. Harris. As far as I can see he doesn't cite any peer reviewed research to support his claims. Nor has he himself published anything on this theory, so it looks like he is merely speculating based on scant evidence (the green banana eaters).

----------


## Arthurium

Well I attempted to WILD last night without real success. 

I ended up going to bed late, and waking up after 2 1/2 hours then staying up 30 minutes after taking 4mg Galantamine and 250mg Choline. I then attemped to WILD and eventually my body went numb and I could see through my eye lids. I would then usually start watching the lights and patterns but they would go away. 

After that happened I went to sleep and had dreams about taking it and WILDing which were interesting .

Very interesting night but I did mess it up by going to bed too late and waking up too early. Maybe I should increase my Choline also. 

Ill try again on thursday and report

----------


## unseen wombat

It seems to be hit and miss for me. I get the best results when taking 8 mg Galantamind. A few times already taking 4 mg have resulted in absolutely nothing, even with an extra 310 mg choline pill. Sometimes when taking the 8 mg I can't get back to sleep. It seems to take like an hour for it to kick in, because even if I'm sleeping, it wakes me up after an hour. 

Last Sunday I tried to WILD, then fell asleep and dreamed I WILDed and succeeded. It was pretty good and realistic, but blurry. It also took me like 3 hours before I finally got lucid after taking the 8 mg Galantamind, so I think it may have pretty much worn off by that time.

----------


## dodobird

New article about LDS in the advancedld site: http://www.advancedld.com/f/Substanc...case_study.pdf

It seems that Yuschak found new combinations that does not require Galantamine, such as this combination: 2000mg L-aspartic acid, 4000mg L-glutamine, and 300mg L-theanine.

----------


## Phydeaux_3

Well I've just ordered up my second order from Dreamamins. I haven't had any galantamine for quite awhile now (almost 2 months) so I'm hoping that I'll have good results right away when it arrives. For anyone who's curious about my previous results, they can be found here in my journal. I'm really looking forward to doing s'more, the last time was totally amazing. No reality checks required, I just _KNEW_ I was dreaming when I was there, that's never happened to me before in my life. What an invigorating experience!

*DREAM ON!*

----------


## Arthurium

> New article about LDS in the advancedld site: http://www.advancedld.com/f/Substanc...case_study.pdf
> 
> It seems that Yuschak found new combinations that does not require Galantamine, such as this combination: 2000mg L-aspartic acid, 4000mg L-glutamine, and 300mg L-theanine.



Some information. It seems Theanine is the active chemical in this combination. 

Theanine is related to glutamine, and can cross the blood-brain barrier.[1]

Theanine is speculated to produce these effects by increasing the level of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) production. Theanine increases brain serotonin, dopamine, GABA levels and has micromolar affinities for AMPA, Kainate and NMDA receptors.[5] It has also been found that injecting spontaneously hypertensive mice with theanine significantly lowered levels of 5-hydroxyindole in the brain.[6] Researchers also speculate that it may inhibit glutamic acid excitotoxicity.[5] Theanine also promotes alpha wave production in the brain.[2]

----------


## Arthurium

> New article about LDS in the advancedld site: http://www.advancedld.com/f/Substanc...case_study.pdf
> 
> It seems that Yuschak found new combinations that does not require Galantamine, such as this combination: 2000mg L-aspartic acid, 4000mg L-glutamine, and 300mg L-theanine.



Being these are amino acids, and do not alter the brain chemistry by use of inhibitor like Galantamine. I think it sound safer, with less side effects (or none). 

Might be able to use these each day too.

----------


## lucidus

Hi Arthurium,

I wasn't able to reply to your PM (maybe the settings in your profile must be changed).

I usually sleep for almost 5 hours and then have a WBTB. I know there is a big REM phase at about T+5:00 hours and I want to get this one.

The LDS supplements I always take just after getting up then. I stay awake (and get awake!) for about an hour. Sometimes falling back to sleep is a problem then, but since I added L-theanine to the mix, this is way more easy now.

You had a good starting point at your attempt, you were already in dreamland when you could see thru your closed eyelids. Next time just try to really get comfortable in your dream body and just get up.

I also think that 8 mg and 500 mg would be a more reliable dose. But you should of course experiment on your own here.

----------


## dodobird

> Being these are amino acids, and do not alter the brain chemistry by use of inhibitor like Galantamine. I think it sound safer, with less side effects (or none). 
> 
> Might be able to use these each day too.



Yea it sounds both safer and I think that it will be easier to acquire at pharmacists. I'm looking forward to reading reports on this combination's effectiveness. I'll try this too after I'll run out of my supply of galantamine.

As for daily effectiveness, I gamble that it will not work well, dew to tolerance: If your brain will get used to constant stimulation, it may become a little 'lazy', and the supplements will not be enough to raise the level of awareness to achieve lucidity. Well, once people start testing this we'll know soon enough.

I suggest that if anyone try this new combination, than start with a dose lower than the one suggested, say half the dose. This is important because often people can benfit just as well, or even better with a lower dose.

----------


## Zimmerman

Interesting, I'm curious to try that combination... hopefully, like dodobird said, it will be easier to get.  I'll have to check this out soon and see if I can get them (hopefully they're not too expensive  ::?: ).  If I do I'll be sure to report back, hopefully more others will give this a try too.

----------


## dodobird

This time I experimented with more supplements, and had excellent WILD success.
I woke after 4.5 hours of sleep.
Took:
4mg Galantamine
500mg Choline Bitartrate
400mg Mucuna Pruriens containing 40mg L-dopa
400mg green tea extract containing 200mg EGCg and 4mg Caffeine
200mg L-Theanine

I waited 25 minutes, and then took another 4mg Galantamine, and went back to bed.

I relaxed for 20 minutes on my back. Then turned on my side, and waited for HI.
After 10-20 minutes I felt SP. I did RC, realized I was dreaming, and begun the LD.

Dream grades on a scale of 1 to 10.
Vividness: 9
Interest: 10
Strangeness: 9
Lucidity: 10
Emotional depth: 10
Stability: 9.7
My intelligence: 6
Control: 6
Recall: 5
Learning experience: 9.5

The dream was 45+ minutes.
After I woke up from the LD, I took 2400mg of Peracetam, and went back to sleep. I then had a vivid and interesting non-LD.

Side effects: After I woke up I felt more relaxed then normal. I think it is due to the L-Theanine. I had no problems driving and working. This feeling wore off during the day, but I still feel some residue of it now ( 24:00 ). It is a pleasant relaxed state.

Notes: 
- This is the first time I had no problem falling asleep, maybe because of the L-Theanine. 
- I took the second dose of Galantamine after 20 minutes as an attempt to extend it's effect, and it may have worked, because the dream was long, and felt even longer.
- It was one of my best LD's and absolutely amazing experience. I met many DC representations of friends and family members, talked with them and shared interesting experiences with them. I was in many different places, and experienced many unexpected, fun, and emotional events.

----------


## Moonbeam

:boogie:  Cool!  That was a great dream.

I think the theanine helps a lot with getting back to sleep.  Do you think the mucana adds anything?  I can never tell if it is helping.

----------


## dodobird

> Cool! That was a great dream.
> 
> I think the theanine helps a lot with getting back to sleep. Do you think the mucana adds anything? I can never tell if it is helping.



I don't know if the mucana helped. So far each LD I had with supplements was so different even when using the same combination, that I don't know how to isolate the effect of each supplement. Maybe after many more trials with different supplements and doses it will be possible to understand the value of supplements such as EGCg and Mucuna. All I can say for now is that it certainly doesn't do any harm.

----------


## Moonbeam

I do think EGCG helps--at least when I added it, my dreams improved.  And it's good for you, so an extra dose doesn't hurt (I take it at least twice during the day too.)

----------


## Astrius

I tried galantamine + choline for the first time today and it actually worked! You can read about what happened in my dream journal (1st Feb).

----------


## maybe

> I do think EGCG helps--at least when I added it, my dreams improved.



Anyone does know why it works? After all, it's recommended here http://www.advancedld.com/LDS_profiles.html But there isn't describe how and why it works. ::roll::

----------


## Arthurium

Just thought you might find this interesting...


If I take Galantamine + Choline, then Piracetam:  I have a nice calm feeling of well being the next day.

If I take Galantamine + Choline:  I feel no different at all, other then a small head ache.

If I take Piracetam: My brain seems to work better, but no well being.

----------


## Moonbeam

> Anyone does know why it works? After all, it's recommended here http://www.advancedld.com/LDS_profiles.html But there isn't describe how and why it works.



http://www.advancedld.com/articles/a...0712/95390.htm

----------


## maybe

> http://www.advancedld.com/articles/a...0712/95390.htm



I meant *EGCG*.
But I found this one http://www.psa-rising.com/eatingwell/tea-memory.html

----------


## Moonbeam

Sorry, I got mixed up what you were asking, but thanks for posting that.

----------


## moe007

I took 4mg galantamine and 500 choline last night 5 hours after sleeping.

IT did nothing besides keep me up for 2 hours, then when i woke up int he morning, it had no sideeffects what soever

should i go to 8mg?

----------


## Moonbeam

That happens sometimes.

Add either a low dose of melatonin (it doesn't help with dreaming, but has a short half-life, maybe use 300 micrograms) or 200-300 milligrams of theanine (an amino acid from green tea that very relaxing--that's what I use, and it helps a lot).

You could stick with the 4mg and see if those help; you need to get to sleep first to see if it is enough.

----------


## moe007

So do i take theanine with the galantamine, or before going to bed?

Last night I also took 150mg 5-HTP before going to bed, to get rem-rebound with the galantamine, to have super long lucids.

Maybe i was took awake and just couldnt get into HI?

I have melatonin and theanine, but i havent tried anything with theanine yet. 
Sucks ill have to wait till next weekend to try the galantamine tho.

I was wondering..

How do you do the WILD with galantamine? Is it all the same thing? You just sit still and wait for HI? Then try to slip into the dream?

----------


## unseen wombat

Hey man, I've had some trouble with WILD's as you know, but last night, I took 8 mg Galantamind and tried to do some energy raising exercises from the book "Astral Dynamics." I think it had more to do with the focusing on one thing than the raising of energy, but it almost worked. I got farther than I ever had before. I don't know if it'll help you, but it might be something you want to try.

----------


## Moonbeam

[quote=moe007;699865]So do i take theanine with the galantamine, or before going to bed? [/quote}

With the Gm.





> Last night I also took 150mg 5-HTP before going to bed, to get rem-rebound with the galantamine, to have super long lucids.



5-HTP has never done a thing for me.





> Maybe i was took awake and just couldnt get into HI?



The choline is stimulating, that's why you need something to counter-act it.  I don't stay up; I take it and go right back to sleep.  It doesn't really feel like a WILD usually, but I am instantly in a lucid (if all goes well.)





> I have melatonin and theanine, but i havent tried anything with theanine yet. 
> Sucks ill have to wait till next weekend to try the galantamine tho.



The theanine is really helpful; I take it with all my combos.  Yea, I know it sucks to screw up a Gm night.  You can try again the next night, sometimes it works.  But that's all I've gotten out of it, just twice--then I have to lay off for at least a week.





> How do you do the WILD with galantamine? Is it all the same thing? You just sit still and wait for HI? Then try to slip into the dream?



I am not a good WILDer.  However, with Gm I have occasionally been able to, probably because it only takes a few minutes.  Otherwise, like I said, I just got to sleep and it works.

----------


## skywatcher

I agree with moonbeam about WILDs with GM.   My experience has bene that I do actually fall asleep but am lucid right away.  

By the way, I've tried GM 4 times now.  3 of 4 times I've been lucid.  The last time produced a 45 minute LD - my longest ever by far (mine usually last less than 5.)

----------


## lucidus

> I agree with moonbeam about WILDs with GM.   My experience has bene that I do actually fall asleep but am lucid right away.



You *have* to fall asleep to be able to dream  :smiley: 

But I know what you mean, sometimes it is kind of seamless, sometimes it feels like there is a phase in between where you sleep unconciously and then, after a while, the dream starts (and you recognize it immediately).

----------


## Arthurium

I had my very first successful WILD last night using Galantamine + Choline.

I have kept track of my other successful WILDS and non-successful ones. 

Here are the common details that made them happen for those that care...

- I got less sleep then I needed all week.. Not for this purpose. But that explains why I was tired...
- Being very tired when going to bed.
- Not really feeling like waking up to WILD cause I was so tired I wanted to sleep. (Got up 5 hours after going to bed)
- Then I stayed up till I was a wake and then a while later I got tired and wanted to go back to bed.  (Stayed up for 1 hour.)
- I took 8mg of Galantamine, and 500mg Choline
- I WILD and then started counting when I felt my self going into the dream world... It was interesting cause stuff just started appearing around me. Very cool. 

 :boogie: 

Fun dream though... Was able to have sex without waking !

----------


## DCDavid

Where does everyone here get their galantamine? Everywhere I've found it it's over $60 a bottle for around 2 months supplyl, that's prety steep. Anyone ever try huperzine for improved dream recall? Both galantamine and huperzine are acetylchonisterase inhibitors and huperzine is much cheaper.

----------


## Arthurium

> Where does everyone here get their galantamine? Everywhere I've found it it's over $60 a bottle for around 2 months supplyl, that's prety steep. Anyone ever try huperzine for improved dream recall? Both galantamine and huperzine are acetylchonisterase inhibitors and huperzine is much cheaper.



I buy Galantamind, and I think its $40. 

As for a 2 month supply, you should not be doing this more then twice a week. It loses its effectiveness. So the bottle should last like 6-12 months.

----------


## DCDavid

Are you saying twice a week for the dream related effects only? I know of many people who use it daily for the nootropic effects, along with piracetam, choline, huperzine etc.

----------


## Arthurium

> Are you saying twice a week for the dream related effects only? I know of many people who use it daily for the nootropic effects, along with piracetam, choline, huperzine etc.



Correct. For some reason it will stop working if you use it everyday.

----------


## phoenelai

Well I've decided to hang up GalantaMind & Choline. I went to bed and slept well with 5HTP. Woke up around 3 took 4 mg G and 500mg Choline. It took me a couple of hours to get back to sleep; and in this case and most cases I seem to get SP really bad. I get so stuck I can't move. It's total 'old hag' and I hate it. I'm better off without these supplements apparently. Has this happened to anyone else with these supplements or am I just unlucky?

 ::shock::

----------


## dodobird

> Well I've decided to hang up GalantaMind & Choline. I went to bed and slept well with 5HTP. Woke up around 3 took 4 mg G and 500mg Choline. It took me a couple of hours to get back to sleep; and in this case and most cases I seem to get SP really bad. I get so stuck I can't move. It's total 'old hag' and I hate it. I'm better off without these supplements apparently. Has this happened to anyone else with these supplements or am I just unlucky?



I think that if you reach sleep paralysis, and such a strong one, than you are very close to success in the WILD. You must learn somehow to cross this barrier. I am not an expert on the subject of moving from SP to a lucid dream, but you can ask on the forum. Anyway, you can try imagining tactile sensations of moving while you are waiting for the WILD ( dropping down, rising up, sliding to different directions - slowly or quickly ) rotating backwards or forwards, or to the left or right. This can help you practice to "move out" of the body and start the dream, and make this step happen naturally.

Another thing you can do if you are stuck and can't move: I think it's bad to struggle against the SP, as this will just frustrate you and will not be effective. One thing you can try, is to simply stay where you are, observing you state, what you feel, hear, etc, how you think - appreciating this interesting altered state of consciousness, and learning about what it's like to be in it.
Relax in this state for as long as it takes. After a while, maybe a long time, there is a chance there you will naturally slide out of your body, and start a lucid dream or an Out-of-body type of experience.

----------


## Lavwro

Has anyone tried making extract out of the snowdrop plant?

Or perhaps tea from the dried flowers? I guess it does not make any difference to te outcome, but it would be nice to have it as a cup of tea before bed  ::lol:: 


just curious
-Lavwro

----------


## dodobird

> Has anyone tried making extract out of the snowdrop plant?
> 
> Or perhaps tea from the dried flowers? I guess it does not make any difference to te outcome, but it would be nice to have it as a cup of tea before bed 
> 
> 
> just curious
> -Lavwro



I tried to find information on extracting Galantamine, but all I could find on the net was non-free article about extracting it from Daffodils, which I did not buy. I think these flowers contains some toxic substances so be careful if you are experimenting.

----------


## iadr

> I went to bed and slept well with 5HTP. Woke up around 3 took 4 mg G and 500mg Choline. It took me a couple of hours to get back to sleep; and in this case and most cases I seem to get SP really bad. I get so stuck I can't move. It's total 'old hag' and I hate it. I'm better off without these supplements apparently. Has this happened to anyone else with these supplements or am I just unlucky?



I wish I could get that kind of sleep paralysis, but its been years since I've had any kind of sleep paralyis that I'm aware of. 

When I used to get it years ago I learned to just relax and float out of my body.

So when you reach a state of sleep paralysis like this, just relax, and concentrate on floating. 

You should be able to float out of your body and enjoy a wonderful out of body experience from this state.

----------


## phoenelai

Thanks everyone. The funny thing is that I'm really good at WILDS and using the HI's to crossover to Lucids. I guess for me though I don't get the SP that can come with it in some situations for some folks. I don't know why I panic when these happen with these supplement but it scares the beejezus out of me and I try to fight it. I also noticed when I was falling into it (read above) I heard loud static noise and and like WWII radio voices, it was really wierd. I know noises are assocatiated with SP so leave up to that. Thanks for all your help! :wink2:

----------


## iadr

> I also noticed when I was falling into it (read above) I heard loud static noise and and like WWII radio voices, it was really wierd. I know noises are assocatiated with SP so leave up to that. Thanks for all your help!



Yes, the noises that you are hearing are caused by your being in tune with the other dimension, so when you hear these noises that's a very good sign that you are very close to an out of body experience, if not already out of your body a bit.

I used to hear them all the time. They were very nerve racking at first, as I would hear people arguing with each other or just talking really loud, and would sometimes hear cats or dogs running around and playing with each other.

I finally learned to just relax and concentrate on floating when hearing the noises, and float away from them.

That is one thing these supplements seem to be good for, helping to separate from the body, as I have found myself floating face down about a foot above the floor several times after taking the supplements.

This is also a reason that people should make sure they are ready for something like this before taking the supplements, because if they aren't expecting something like this, it can be a little scary.

----------


## phoenelai

> Yes, the noises that you are hearing are caused by your being in tune with the other dimension, so when you hear these noises that's a very good sign that you are very close to an out of body experience, if not already out of your body a bit.
> 
> I used to hear them all the time. They were very nerve racking at first, as I would hear people arguing with each other or just talking really loud, and would sometimes hear cats or dogs running around and playing with each other.
> 
> I finally learned to just relax and concentrate on floating when hearing the noises, and float away from them.
> 
> That is one thing these supplements seem to be good for, helping to separate from the body, as I have found myself floating face down about a foot above the floor several times after taking the supplements.
> 
> This is also a reason that people should make sure they are ready for something like this before taking the supplements, because if they aren't expecting something like this, it can be a little scary.



*Thanks!* Can you suggest how to get released from the paralyzed or frozen state. I don't have experience in projecting, oobe etc. I know how to WILD to lucids but don't know how to "free" my body from the locked state. Sadly enough...I read about 1/2 of *Astral Dynamics* but didnt keep the book, ughhhh!

Many thanks!

----------


## symbolist

Where Can I find these Vitamins? Local Vitamin shop. Also If someone could provide a list of all the vitamins used, that would be according to the demeanor of Budda.
thanks

----------


## symbolist

Where Can I find these Vitamins? Local Vitamin shop. Also If someone could provide a list of all the vitamins used, that would be according to the demeanor of Budda.
thank you.

----------


## symbolist

> Forth WILD attempt with Galantamine + choline: Partial success.
> 
> This time in addition to 4mg Galantamine and 500 mg choline when doing WBTB, I took 100mg of 5-HTP at bed-time. Yuschak suggests taking it as both to improve the sleep quality on nights that you take Galantamine ( because then you will have good deep sleep the first half of the night to compensate for the extended REM sleep the caused by the Galantamine and choline ), and also because it causes an REM rebound the second half of the night.
> For me this didn't work well on this attempt. When I woke for the WBTB, I was very refreshed and afterwards during the WILD attempt I couldn't fall asleep. I was just not sleepy enough. I managed to get to the stage of the vibrations many times, I'd say about 10 times, but I couldn't cross over to the dream state.
> Galantamine and choline are also stimulants, so after sometime it became even harder to fall asleep, and I struggled like this until the morning. However, just before I gave up and got up, I did managed to cross through the HI transition, and into a lucid dream. Unfortunately the dream was very unstable and I woke after about 20 seconds.
> Again I took 3200mg Peracetam after I woke up to counter the Galantamine, and I don't feel any Galantamine 'hang-over'.






Where Can I find these Vitamins? Local Vitamin shop. Also If someone could provide a list of all the vitamins used, that would be according to the demeanor of Budda.
thanks

----------


## phoenelai

> Where Can I find these Vitamins? Local Vitamin shop. Also If someone could provide a list of all the vitamins used, that would be according to the demeanor of Budda.
> thanks



Advanced LD.com also you might want to purchase the book, it explains how to use combinations and when to take them ect to get the best effects.

----------


## iadr

> Where Can I find these Vitamins? Local Vitamin shop. Also If someone could provide a list of all the vitamins used, that would be according to the demeanor of Budda.
> thanks



Just found this link on another lucid dreaming site.

http://www.naturalhealthconsult.com/...lantamind.html

This is the cheapest I've seen it offered anywhere, and as far as I know it is something that is only sold over the internet right now.

It tells at the top of the page what ingredients are in the capsule.

I bought the 8mg size and just took the capsule apart and took only half of it with an additional 250 mg of choline the first time I tried it, which was more than enough, as I had 3 false awakenings followed by a lucid dream.

Like any kind of pill, make sure you read up on the side effects of this so that will know what to expect.

----------


## dodobird

> Where Can I find these Vitamins? Local Vitamin shop. Also If someone could provide a list of all the vitamins used, that would be according to the demeanor of Budda.
> thank you.



What does Buddha has to do with it?

----------


## iadr

> *Thanks!* Can you suggest how to get released from the paralyzed or frozen state. I don't have experience in projecting, oobe etc. I know how to WILD to lucids but don't know how to "free" my body from the locked state. Sadly enough...I read about 1/2 of *Astral Dynamics* but didnt keep the book, ughhhh!
> Many thanks!



I've heard that the best way to get out of that frozen state is to try wiggling your big toe, but personally I would prefer to remain in that frozen state if I were to ever find myself in it again, as it is the easiest state to project out of your body from.

Next time you find yourself in that state, just relax, and concentrate on floating. 

You should find yourself out of your body shortly after this.

Once out of your body, be aware that in that other dimension everything is controlled by your mind.

If you wish to go somewhere, just think about where you want to go and you should find yourself there almost instantly.

And don't be scared of various noises you hear like voices or other things, as this is just an indication that you have succeeded in making it into the other dimension.

You should be able to get away from them just by concentrating on going somewhere else.

----------


## phoenelai

> I've heard that the best way to get out of that frozen state is to try wiggling your big toe, but personally I would prefer to remain in that frozen state if I were to ever find myself in it again, as it is the easiest state to project out of your body from.
> 
> Next time you find yourself in that state, just relax, and concentrate on floating. 
> 
> You should find yourself out of your body shortly after this.
> 
> Once out of your body, be aware that in that other dimension everything is controlled by your mind.
> 
> If you wish to go somewhere, just think about where you want to go and you should find yourself there almost instantly.
> ...



Thanks, I'll let you know how I progress with this. Appreciate the info!

----------


## iadr

One thing I forgot to mention.

If you would happen to encounter any entities while in that other dimension that you perceive to be evil (unfortunately there are a few of those out there, just like there are some very helpful entities also), I've found the best way in dealing with them is to just concentrate on expanding white light out from myself.

They are unable to handle white light as it disentigrates them.

Fortunately I've only encountered negative entities about 10 percent of the time.

----------


## Ulises

I have followed this topic with great interest. I bought galantamine+choline from Dreamamins and I've had great success with it, from six times in five weeks: 2 WILDs and 4DILDs.

But lately it is difficult to me to return to sleep a bit after taking galantamine. I don't have L-Theanine yet so... What about of taking valerian together with galantamine+coline after 4 hours of sleep(WBTB)?

I got pills of valerian with hop but I never taken them. Would valerian interfere in phase REM similar to melatonine? Or similar to L-Theanine?

Thanks for answers.

By the way I'm a new user from Spain. Nice to meet you to all.

----------


## dodobird

> I have followed this topic with great interest. I bought galantamine+choline from Dreamamins and I've had great success with it, from six times in five weeks: 2 WILDs and 4DILDs.
> 
> But lately it is difficult to me to return to sleep a bit after taking galantamine. I don't have L-Theanine yet so... What about of taking valerian together with galantamine+coline after 4 hours of sleep(WBTB)?
> 
> I got pills of valerian with hop but I never taken them. Would valerian interfere in phase REM similar to melatonine? Or similar to L-Theanine?
> 
> Thanks for answers.
> 
> By the way I'm a new user from Spain. Nice to meet you to all.



Welcome to DV, Ulises!

I do not think enough is known on Valerian to give you an answer. The best way is simply to try it.
Another thing you can do to help you fall asleep, is reduce the time in which you are awake when doing WBTB.

----------


## iadr

> But lately it is difficult to me to return to sleep a bit after taking galantamine. 
> By the way I'm a new user from Spain. Nice to meet you to all.



Nice to meet you too Ulises. :smiley: 

Having difficulty getting back to sleep is a very common problem with the galantamine, and something I've also had trouble with lately myself.

A couple of nights ago I took 1200 mg of alpha-gpc after about 3 1/2 hours of sleep with the intention of then taking 8 mg of galantamine about 1 1/2 hours later so that they would both kick in at the same time.

And even though I went back to bed immediately after taking both the alpha-gpc and the galantamine, I never got back to sleep at all for the rest of the night since the stuff kept me awake all night long.  And I even took L-Theanine with the galantamine.  :Sad: 

For that reason I've decided to just use this stuff on the weekends from now on when I am off the next day and can sleep in.

I had to take the night off last night just to catch up on my sleep.

----------


## phoenelai

> Nice to meet you too Ulises.
> 
> Having difficulty getting back to sleep is a very common problem with the galantamine, and something I've also had trouble with lately myself.
> 
> A couple of nights ago I took 1200 mg of alpha-gpc after about 3 1/2 hours of sleep with the intention of then taking 8 mg of galantamine about 1 1/2 hours later so that they would both kick in at the same time.
> 
> And even though I went back to bed immediately after taking both the alpha-gpc and the galantamine, I never got back to sleep at all for the rest of the night since the stuff kept me awake all night long.  And I even took L-Theanine with the galantamine. 
> 
> For that reason I've decided to just use this stuff on the weekends from now on when I am off the next day and can sleep in.
> ...



Agreed, I'm no longer using this stuff during the week. Too many times I've lost sleep. The only thing I'm using during the week before bed is 5HTP and that helps good sleep and can trigger REM rebound. My recall has been really great and had one Low Level Lucid! 
 ::banana::

----------


## Ulises

I have experimented for the seventh time with galantamine+choline:

I went to bed at 1:30 then I woke up at 5:30 and I took 8mg galantamine and 400mg choline, I was wake for about ten minutes and I went to bed again. I was on the bed with my mind in blank and suddenly I started to see landscapes. One of the landscapes, that had a waterfall, began to wrap me or maybe I entered on it. then the waterfall turned into a house in wich I lived when I was a child, I went out to the roof and I began to fly.

Later I had two false awakenings and a very vivid dream no lucid.

No side effects this morning.

Greetings.

----------


## dallyup52

I tried 200mg *DMAE* with the *Galantamind* for the first time last night. (Adding the DMAE was a first).  Usually I take 300mg Choline

Woke myself at 1:30AM after 4hr sleep (many dreams) and then listened to 80min of hemisync. 
By that time I was very relaxed with my body asleep.  I stayed in that condition for another 30-60min and then started interacting with the 3D images in front of me.  That drew me the rest of the way into the sequences.  I was able to do this many times and was lucid each time.  When I would do this I would have total control of myself and took varying degrees of control over my environment.  

I had everything from deeply meaningful experiences to what seemed like extremely trivia experiences. One time I was in bed with a beautiful black woman and I asked who she was.  She said that she was my creation.  (That was one of the trivial ones). 

Another time a booming voice came out of nowhere while I was at this beautiful scene.  The voice told me things about my future life here. (That was one of the meaningful ones).

The difference, for me, adding the DMAE was:

1) less body feel of the vibrations
2) many more sequences of events and consciousness prior to leaving
3) felt closer to this earth plane

----------


## sstride

Dear All,

I haven't replied for quite a while, sorry. I've added 3 video segments to Youtube that are part of a 4 part tutorial on Lucid Dream Supplements.  I did these videos to educate dreamers about supplements and the science behind using them to enhance their dreams. 

Here are the URLs...

Part 1: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pt4kX-ByQak
Part 2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=nm0tZ3bJP6Y
Part 3: http://youtube.com/watch?v=bdmv0y0YHMI

Or you can do a keyword search on this phrase:

"Lucid Dreaming Foods" 

BTW, I also did a 3 part series on the Novadreamer mask. 

You can find them by doing a Youtube keyword search on

"Novadreamer Lucid"

For transcripts of the videos go to...

http://www.advancedld.com/links.html

Regards,

Scot Stride

----------


## DREAMER242000

Cheers Scot
Thanks for taking the time to put the videos on supplements on
Lucid Dreaming together, they will be very informative and helpful
to many people including myself.
 :smiley:

----------


## Cn

> I did a little research on galantamine a while back and thought that I read that it didn't get into the central nervous system when taken orally.  From your experiences, that seems not to be true.
> 
> Thanks for sharing this.  I'll have to get that book.
> 
> B6 used to work for me, but it quit working.  It definitely wasn't a placebo effect, but it just doesn't seem to work anymore.



Same here, B6 use to give me very vivid dreams for the first 3 weeks or so, taken like every 3 days, but now they don't work in the slightest.

----------


## LoganKost

Well, I recieved my Galantamine in the mail yesterday and decided to try it out last night.

I woke up 3.5 hours after I went to bed, 4.5 and it would have been too early, I took the Galantamine and read for about 20 minutes. I went back to bed, and tried to WILD but I just fell back asleep. Then I find myself lucid in a dream, I explore that dream for a short period and start to feel the dream fading, I start feeling vibrations, but I manage to procure a new dream scene. From then I had about a 3 minute long lucid, I had minimal control, but it was still fun.

If you ask me, Galantamine WORKS. I'm excited to try it when I have a full nights sleep and no finals the next morning.

P.S. This was without taking Choline, I'm going to go pick some up though. What are the benefits?

----------


## dodobird

> If you ask me, Galantamine WORKS. I'm excited to try it when I have a full nights sleep and no finals the next morning.
> 
> P.S. This was without taking Choline, I'm going to go pick some up though. What are the benefits?




from the advancedld site:



> *Effect on Dreams:*
> Choline salts do not have much of an impact on dreaming unless they are combined with Galantamine in which case they can intensify the action of Galantamine.
> 
> *Effect on Lucid Dreams:*
> Combining a Choline salt with Galantamine increases the odds of experiencing a WILD. I consider the Galantamine/Choline combination to be the fundamental lucidity trigger from which all others are derived.

----------


## dallyup52

> Well, I recieved my Galantamine in the mail yesterday and decided to try it out last night.
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. This was without taking Choline, I'm going to go pick some up though. What are the benefits?



First of all ... it works much better for me if I wait 5-7days between ingesting the Galantamine.  The body builds up a tolerance.

The choline is a precursor to Acetycholine which is the neurotransmitter that we are really interested in.  This helps to create an abundance of Acetycholine in the brain to help remember the events and maintain consciousness.  Understand that the abundance of Choline/Acetycholine does many things within the body structure. Do your research, know what you are doing to your body.

Research throughly before you take any of these substances.  Just because they aren't regulated doesn't mean they aren't powerful.  Used with foresight and knowledge  of how they interact and they are very powerful indeed for the remembering of these incredible journeys.

BlessU
Sam

----------


## dallyup52

I think I get a bit of a brain fog the next couple of days.  Or is that just my advancing age?

----------


## moe007

> I think I get a bit of a brain fog the next couple of days.  Or is that just my advancing age?



Thats weird. I dont understand any of you people  :tongue2:  Same with Thomas Yuschak; in his book he would talk about side effects...

Never have I encountered any effects with Galantamine, and since I had no success with 4mg, or 8mg, I have gone to 12mg/750 combos, and I still get no side effects.

Whats the deal.. super CNS?  ::D:

----------


## iadr

> I think I get a bit of a brain fog the next couple of days. Or is that just my advancing age?



I believe that happens to just about everyone dallyup52. I used to hardly be able to even remember any dreams the next night.

I believe I have finally solved that problem though. What I do is take another supplement like GABA with some ZMA capsules the next night, and then the following night I take the Amino Acid blend. 

Although the GABA and Amino Acid blend is far less effective than the galantamine is, at least my dream recall stays fairly constant this way instead of drastically falling off like it used to after using the galantamine.

----------


## dallyup52

> I believe that happens to just about everyone dallyup52. I used to hardly be able to even remember any dreams the next night.
> 
> I believe I have finally solved that problem though. What I do is take another supplement like GABA with some ZMA capsules the next night, and then the following night I take the Amino Acid blend. 
> 
> Although the GABA and Amino Acid blend is far less effective than the galantamine is, at least my dream recall stays fairly constant this way instead of drastically falling off like it used to after using the galantamine.



I remember my Lucid dreams quite well and write them down right away but I still feel a little in a fog.  I take the piracetam 800mg in the morning and the helps but at times pushed the fog to the next day.  Sometimes I am wasted for a couple of days.  I took 20mg of Propranolo with the G the last time and had no brain fog.  Maybe coincidence?

When I used Galantamind 5-6 years ago I did it almost everyday for several months until I developed a tolerance. And I don't remember being so tired.   But I wasn't taking the extra Choline with it either.  I hadn't read Thomas' book yet and didn't realize I was building up a tolerance.  Now I don't take it more than once a week.

Do you take the GABA and ZMA to get a good nights rest?

Thanks for your response.

----------


## iadr

> I take the piracetam 800mg in the morning and the helps but at times pushed the fog to the next day.  Sometimes I am wasted for a couple of days.  I took 20mg of Propranolo with the G the last time and had no brain fog.  Maybe coincidence?
> 
> Now I don't take it more than once a week.
> 
> Do you take the GABA and ZMA to get a good nights rest?
> 
> Thanks for your response.



You're welcome.  I started taking 2400mg of piracetam twice a day every day to keep from building up a tolerance to galantamine and it seems to have really helped, because I have now been able to take galantamine twice a week with the transitions remaining very strong.

I take it when I get up in the morning with some orange juice and then also take it again around noon with some grape juice.

The GABA with the ZMA has actually helped me get lucid several times, and when I've taken it 2 or 3 hours after taking the galantamine it has resulted in some incredible long lucids of an hour or longer.  

So in addition to taking it the day after taking galantamine, I also take it 2 or 3 hours after taking galantamine, knowing that if for some reason I fall asleep and don't get lucid fro the galantamine, I normally will from the GABA.

The only problem I've had with it is that if I take too much of it on the same nights I take the galantamine, I can feel nauseated the next day, especially if I have taken galantamine with a nicotine patch, although it has resulted in some incredible nights with multiple lucids.

----------


## urdreamboy

Anyone try to take a G in the daytime via wild or taking a nap via dild? Any success?

----------


## moe007

> Anyone try to take a G in the daytime via wild or taking a nap via dild? Any success?



This wouldnt be very smart.

You will not have a good night sleep, and you might just be insomniac all night. Some dreams might happen, you will in case you fall asleep, definitely wake up feeling tired and groggy.

ANd doing this isnt recommended, because you have to watch what you eat before AND after taking it.

Im talking from personal experience.

----------


## dallyup52

> This wouldnt be very smart.
> 
> ANd doing this isnt recommended, because you have to watch what you eat before AND after taking it.
> 
> Im talking from personal experience.



What do you mean here?  What foods have been bothering you after taking G?

----------


## Firewalker

I've tried it after getting up for an hour then going back to bed after having slept 6 hours, nothing happened, and I've also tried it before bedtime, it didn't keep me awake the way it usually does when I try it at WBTB but I didn't remember any dreams either, or only vagely anyway. But there are some so called lucid dream pills which consist of Galantamine, B5, and choline, some include a small amount of melatonin which is suppossed to be taken at bedtime. While the LD book recommends taking them at WBTB this hasn't worked well for me, so you might want to experiement with different times, I plan on trying it before bed again.

----------


## moe007

> What do you mean here?  What foods have been bothering you after taking G?



Not about bothering me, about how well the galantamine absorbs into your bloodstream, and as for the food after, you dont want to take any supplements or eat anything that will boost your acetylcholine more than it already is.

----------


## bois

Hi all,

I am new here, and I am new in lucid dreaming. I had some lucid dreams in the past, in all of them in the dream I realized that I am dreaming. I month ago a read about the supplements whith you can enhance the lucid dreaming and I thought I will try it.
Yesterday I got the Lucid Dreamer pills which I ordered from dreamamins.com.
Last night after about 4.5 hour of sleep I wake-up, took a pill(contains 4mg Galantamine and 200mg Choline),  read something for 30 minutes, and go back to bed and try to WILD. After an hour a give up and I tried to sleep normally, but only after an another hour I could sleep back.
I had about four dreams, not lucid and not so vivid. In one dream I dreamed that I took the pill in order to have lucid dreams(having a lucid dream when you are dreaming in your dream :smiley:  ).

I am going to try this night too, but after taking the pill I will go right back to bed, and I will take two pills.

----------


## DREAMER242000

Good luck tonight.
I used to take pills from Brilliant dreams and on about half the occassions I took
them I would either become Lucid or at the least have a night with more vivid
dreams then normal.
 :smiley:

----------


## Clairity

> Good luck tonight.
> I used to take pills from Brilliant dreams and on about half the occassions I took
> them I would either become Lucid or at the least have a night with more vivid
> dreams then normal.



Out of curiousity, what made you stop taking them? Did you simply not need them anymore or was it just too expensive?

----------


## DREAMER242000

> Out of curiousity, what made you stop taking them? Did you simply not need them anymore or was it just too expensive?



Hi Clairity

The reason I stopped using them is because I read this thread and learnt of the
product called Galantamind and decided to give that a go instead.
This I also find very effective I usually have it for two nights in a row then have
a two night break before repeating the process. checking my notes so far I have
taken the product either 4mg or 8mg on 24 occassions and out of them 24 times
I have had 15 nights with at least 1 lucid. so for me they are very effective.
Probably for some people they would have little or no effect but for me personally I am pleased with my results.

Just in case you intrested prior to taking any supplements I would normally have about 2 to 3 Lds a month.
Hope this info is of intrest to you.
 :smiley:

----------


## Clairity

> Hope this info is of intrest to you.



Very much so! Thanks for sharing!!  ::hug::

----------


## The Enterer

For what it's worth it's the inclusion of melatonin that makes the Brilliant Dreams brand less effective than Galantimind.

----------


## Clairity

That's good to know!  Thanks Enterer!  :smiley:

----------


## The Enterer

Your welcome.  :smiley:  You can take Melotonin separately when you go to sleep and it will be out of your system enough to take the Galantamind and do a WBTB five hours later, but you don't want them active at the same time.

----------


## PawneeWarrior

I'll throw in my 2 bits.  

I have been keeping a DJ for a few weeks and have had many dreams that are very brief bursts of lucidity before I wake up.  I decided to order Galantamind and give it a try.  Two nights ago I took one in conjunction with WBTB, and had a very vivid lucid dream that lasted about 10-20 seconds, in which I performed several RC's.   Might not seem like much, but its about 10 times longer than I had been having before.  Plan to take it again tonight.  One interesting side effect since taking it is that I have noticed SP type vibrations ever time I have slept, and seem to be able to gain control of vibrations by causing them to occur in my left hand and spread outward.  Haven't been able to use them for WILD, but I am still trying.

----------


## The Enterer

After waking up from the LD did you go back to sleep again?

----------


## PawneeWarrior

> After waking up from the LD did you go back to sleep again?



Yes, I went back to sleep and had a breif ND, about being at a Gym and fighting over a treadmill with and acquaintance of mine.  Then it was time to get up.  I think I need to increase the time I sleep from 6-7 hours to 8-9.

----------


## kaeraz

This has probably already been asked in this thread, but I didn't feel like wading through 14 pages, so: is there any store where I can buy Galantamine or Choline or both? I know there's tons of places to buy it online, but since it's not illegal (here in the US anyway), it seems like they should carry it at vitamin stores or something. I just called a Hi Health store and the lady said she'd never even heard of it. 

I suppose I could just order it online, but I'm impatient.  :tongue2:

----------


## PawneeWarrior

Don't know if this helps:


http://www.walgreens.com/library/fin...dyne&id=644514


Don't know if it is OTC or not, but that is galantamine.

Choline is available at GNC, even in the small GNC sections at Rite Aid.

----------


## dodobird

> This has probably already been asked in this thread, but I didn't feel like wading through 14 pages, so: is there any store where I can buy Galantamine or Choline or both? I know there's tons of places to buy it online, but since it's not illegal (here in the US anyway), it seems like they should carry it at vitamin stores or something. I just called a Hi Health store and the lady said she'd never even heard of it. 
> 
> I suppose I could just order it online, but I'm impatient.



As far as I know, without a prescription you can only buy Galantamine online.
As stated in the previous post, Choline can easily be found in health shops.

----------


## The Enterer

> I suppose I could just order it online, but I'm impatient.



I ordered it online and it took about three days to get to me.

----------


## MindVoyager

I had my last LD about 10 years ago, and have recently restarted my LD training on June 16 by doing frequent RC and building up my dream recall.  Last night I did the following experiment with Galantamine for the first time:

Went to bed at 21:30
Woke at 03:00.  4mg Galantamine, 300mg Choline bitartrate, 300mg Alpha GPC

Went immediately back to bed.  I was very excited about this experiment, and that mood combined with the supplements made me very wide awake.  I tried my best to relax and to breathe.  I had some very interesting HI and eventually a floaty feeling came over my body.  I had two incidents of actually hearing clear sounds in my head (one was a voice saying 'haaaaa', and another was a weird brief screech).  Later I had the sensation that parts of my body were moving off into other directions.  All of this just served to get me more excited and think 'this is going to be good'.  I continued to wait, and wait, and wait.

The result was three False Awakenings.  I was convinced in each one that I was waiting for my LD, and then interrupted by something in the house.  One was checking up on my daughter, one my wife, one was a bathroom break.  All of these were actually very vivid dreams.  After analyzing these dreams and recording in my DJ, they were of course peppered with excellent DS.

Although I did not get an LD, I think the experience was very interesting with alot to learn from.  I took 2g of Piracetam in the morning and will try this experiment again on Sunday night.  

If anyone has any tips for the next try, please share them with me.

Thank you.

----------


## The Enterer

I found that I had to up my game a little bit. The dreams were so vivid that I just explained away my dream signs, and the false awakenings were not something I was familiar with. Knowing what to expect helps. Sorry there's no real tip there, but stick with it and good luck.

----------


## ChaybaChayba

> This has probably already been asked in this thread, but I didn't feel like wading through 14 pages, so: is there any store where I can buy Galantamine or Choline or both? I know there's tons of places to buy it online, but since it's not illegal (here in the US anyway), it seems like they should carry it at vitamin stores or something. I just called a Hi Health store and the lady said she'd never even heard of it. 
> 
> I suppose I could just order it online, but I'm impatient.



You can buy it at any pharmacy (drugstore).. not everyone will know the name, but if they type it in their computer it will usually show up and they will have it in stock or they will be able to order it for you.

----------


## dodobird

> I had my last LD about 10 years ago, and have recently restarted my LD training on June 16 by doing frequent RC and building up my dream recall.  Last night I did the following experiment with Galantamine for the first time:
> 
> Went to bed at 21:30
> Woke at 03:00.  4mg Galantamine, 300mg Choline bitartrate, 300mg Alpha GPC
> 
> Went immediately back to bed.  I was very excited about this experiment, and that mood combined with the supplements made me very wide awake.  I tried my best to relax and to breathe.  I had some very interesting HI and eventually a floaty feeling came over my body.  I had two incidents of actually hearing clear sounds in my head (one was a voice saying 'haaaaa', and another was a weird brief screech).  Later I had the sensation that parts of my body were moving off into other directions.  All of this just served to get me more excited and think 'this is going to be good'.  I continued to wait, and wait, and wait.
> 
> The result was three False Awakenings.  I was convinced in each one that I was waiting for my LD, and then interrupted by something in the house.  One was checking up on my daughter, one my wife, one was a bathroom break.  All of these were actually very vivid dreams.  After analyzing these dreams and recording in my DJ, they were of course peppered with excellent DS.
> 
> ...



You may be able to fall asleep easier by taking 200mg of L-Theanine along with the other supplements.
good luck!

----------


## bois

After many attempts still no "visible" result. I tried about six times, but all of them was a failure. 
After 4-5 hours of sleep I took 1 pill(4mg Galantamine and 200 mg Choline) or sometimes two, and I gone back to sleep. I tried in a few times to WILD but without success, or I simly waited to sleep back. I had many dreams, more than usual, or simply I remembered better them, but no lucid dream.
But after all I don't gave up, I have to improve the WILD technik, because I think this is the key to succes.

----------


## Speesh

Ok I just recieved mine a few days ago (4mg galantamine, 200 choline), and I'm in need of advice. 

I tried the first night I got it, by waking up after 5 hours of sleep. Took the pill and waited an hour cause I hear that's how long it takes to make an effect. Though after an hour of staying up I was wide awake, and remained that way for most of the night. I did drift in and out of sleep at one point and had a very vivid dream (better than most) though. 

The second time I was too awake to WILD but able to sleep, and actually had a small DILD. I was in this house in which each room was a room I knew well, but they were all from different houses. I wasn't that lucid so it was difficult for me to tell. Eventually I did an RC to seal the deal. I should mention I've only had 2 DILDs before this since I started trying to lucid dream, so even this crappy one is a big deal for me.

Usually I have good control in my dreams, however this one was different. I remember losing control of my muscular function and hitting my head against the wall at one point, after which I blacked out for a few seconds. It was pretty weird and hard to describe. Then I tried to jump through the roof to try flying, something I'm usually pretty good at, but once I got in the air everything faded to black and I remember being able to feel my physical body again. I struggled to get back in but woke up shortly after.

Anyone know of a way I can tire myself out or relax before going back to sleep? Or maybe it'd be more effective if I woke up earlier? Also both nights I took 500mcg melatonin at the beginning of the night, don't think that should matter but I'm no expert on REM suppression/rebounds.

In a nutshell I think whoever said that you still need LD skills in order for Galantamine to have an effect was right. Though I'm hoping that if I use Galantamine the right way I can revise my techniques more effectively. I almost never get any hypnagogic hallucinations, but both nights I had crazy vivid visual/audio. If it really does make WILDing easier hopefully this will help me in the long run.

----------


## dodobird

> Ok I just recieved mine a few days ago (4mg galantamine, 200 choline), and I'm in need of advice. 
> 
> I tried the first night I got it, by waking up after 5 hours of sleep. Took the pill and waited an hour cause I hear that's how long it takes to make an effect. Though after an hour of staying up I was wide awake, and remained that way for most of the night. I did drift in and out of sleep at one point and had a very vivid dream (better than most) though. 
> 
> The second time I was too awake to WILD but able to sleep, and actually had a small DILD. I was in this house in which each room was a room I knew well, but they were all from different houses. I wasn't that lucid so it was difficult for me to tell. Eventually I did an RC to seal the deal. I should mention I've only had 2 DILDs before this since I started trying to lucid dream, so even this crappy one is a big deal for me.
> 
> Usually I have good control in my dreams, however this one was different. I remember losing control of my muscular function and hitting my head against the wall at one point, after which I blacked out for a few seconds. It was pretty weird and hard to describe. Then I tried to jump through the roof to try flying, something I'm usually pretty good at, but once I got in the air everything faded to black and I remember being able to feel my physical body again. I struggled to get back in but woke up shortly after.
> 
> Anyone know of a way I can tire myself out or relax before going back to sleep? Or maybe it'd be more effective if I woke up earlier? Also both nights I took 500mcg melatonin at the beginning of the night, don't think that should matter but I'm no expert on REM suppression/rebounds.
> ...



hi Speesh, there are several things I can suggest to you.

1) For now don't take any melatonine before you go to sleep because it adds another factor of complexity and it will be difficult to tell which supplement causes what, and difficult to optimize the times and doses.

2) Waking after 4:30 hours instead of 5 hours may help you fall asleep more easily

3) Try to reduce the time you are up for WBTB. For example you can try 20 minutes, and also you can try going to sleep right away after taking the supplements

4) If all this fails and you still can't fall back to sleep, take 200mg of L-theanine along with the galantamine

5) Don't make conclusions based on just 2 attepmts, as every time it can be different. It could be that in future attempts you will have better dream control for example. But if you will consistently have short LD's with poor control when taking Galantamine , then I suggest upping the dose of Galantamine to 8mg.

----------


## Speesh

Sounds great, thanks for the tips!  ::thumbup:: 

I'll work on each point a few times over, the biggest problem is probably that I've been impatient with this experimentation. For now I'll wait a few days though, and work at WILDing without supplemental aid in the meantime.

I'll get back here when something happens, here's hoping I won't have to settle for 8mg every night.

----------


## dodobird

> Sounds great, thanks for the tips! 
> 
> I'll work on each point a few times over, the biggest problem is probably that I've been impatient with this experimentation. For now I'll wait a few days though, and work at WILDing without supplemental aid in the meantime.
> 
> I'll get back here when something happens, here's hoping I won't have to settle for 8mg every night.



Sounds like a good approach!
BTW, it's always better to wait about 3 days between Galantamine attempts, to avoid becoming to tolerant to the effect.

----------


## mctxp

Which brand is best to buy of Galantamine and Choline. Where can I buy them? I tried RIte-aid. But they do not have them.
PLease let me know
Thanks
Raj

----------


## Ulises

> Which brand is best to buy of Galantamine and Choline. Where can I buy them? I tried RIte-aid. But they do not have them.
> PLease let me know
> Thanks
> Raj



I bought them from this page: http://www.dreamamins.com/002.html
They were veri rapid sending the order to my country (Spain) And the capsules (a couple of them everitime) have worked perfectly combined with the WBTB technique.

Greetings.

----------


## DreamChaser

> I bought them from this page: http://www.dreamamins.com/002.html
> They were veri rapid sending the order to my country (Spain) And the capsules (a couple of them everitime) have worked perfectly combined with the WBTB technique.
> 
> Greetings.



I have found if you take the Dreamscape one before bed, which has Galantamine and Melatonin, it gives you a rich sleep before REM and the residual Galatamine still works for later Lucids.
Every time I have Epic storyline dreams. Instead of patchy dreams, even if woken you seem to return to it. Great for DEILDs, etc.
The Lucid Dreamer if taken early morning just seems to keep me awake.

----------


## Speesh

Well at this point I've had some success, though I've only had 2 chances to try it out since my last post. I've been busy with work and it makes me too tired to function in the morning. However both of these times I had an LD like the one before, really poor control and getting stripped out of the dream world into paralysis. I guess next time I should try out 8mg. Does this seem to change the effects of what happens the next day though? Just wondering because if just 4mg makes me that tired I can imagine 8 would make it much worse. 

Either way I've been having great recall over the past week or so, maybe I'll keep it natural for a while longer and see where the streak goes. Oh and that L-Theanine really helped last time, highly recommended if going back to sleep is an issue for people.

----------


## RunflaCruiser

I take the 5-htp before bed and then set the alarm for 4 am.

Then take the 8mg of galantamine and 400 mg choline bitrate. I stay up for about a half hour in bed before wilding.

If I dont wild I always dild or mild (I always mix my wild with my mild)

I guarantee myself atleast 1 lucid dream every time I attemp.

I do this 2-3 times every week, and usually have about 2-3 lucids each night I do it.

I always follow up with piracetam the morning after to get the galatamine out a little quicker.

I have did this for about 2 months now and havent had a single failed attempt yet.

Side effects:
A little sleepy/tired the next day.

that it!!!

YEA...it is a gooood book.

----------


## Vortex

does anyone know where I can buy galantamine in Europe?

----------


## Ulises

> does anyone know where I can buy galantamine in Europe?



Hi, I'm from Spain and I have bouhgt galantamine+coline several times from this page http://www.dreamamins.com/002.html they are rapid and cheap. I use to take two capsules every seven days and it always has worked.

Greetings

----------


## Vortex

I tried to buy from there but when I put my delivery address in it said "not available to this address".
I eventually got some from http://www.brilliantdreams.com

----------


## Ulises

> I tried to buy from there but when I put my delivery address in it said "not available to this address".
> I eventually got some from http://www.brilliantdreams.com



But is your country in the list of deliveries? If it's so is weird that they can't deliver the capsules to your address.

Brilliantdreams's pills contain only galantamine, I think, does it? Then you have to buy choline from other site, I think, I'm not sure.

Greetings.

----------


## Vortex

BrilliantDreams contain Galantamine, Choline, B5 and Melatonin. 
The instructions say to take before bed but I found it kept me awake and then wore off before the morning dreams.

----------


## cerebral

> Which brand is best to buy of Galantamine and Choline. Where can I buy them? I tried RIte-aid. But they do not have them.
> PLease let me know
> Thanks
> Raj



You may also want to try Memeron.  Memeron combines Alpha GPC and Galantamine.  See http://www.memeron.com/galantamine.html

----------


## BlinkOnceForYes

Hi,

I've been interested in LDs for a while and even succeeded in achieving a LC back in 2001 (DILD). I got away from it for a while, though my habit of keeping a dream journal in my teens seems to have left with me with an ability to recall most of my dreams quite well.

But, back to the subject at hand. I saw some videos on YouTube re: LDS and, coincidentally, a friend of mine emailed me re: galantamine and its uses. It made me sufficiently curious to experiment and I bought 'Lucid Dreamer' pills from the Dreamamins site. As others have stated, each pill contains 4mg of galantamine (from lycoris radiata) and 200mg of choline. These pills are manufactured in China, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the quality is sufficient and no harmful contaminants are present.

I've read through this entire thread as well as some other forums before beginning my experimentation.

Following the advice of the people on this thread, I went to bed at ~12:30 (though falling asleep past 1am) and woke up at 4:50am (by alarm). I proceeded to open up two caps (so, 8mg of galantamine and 400mg of choline) and mixed it with 1/2 cup of water. The brew tasted quite sour, but not quite like lemon sour - closer to the sourness of the powdered gummy candies. I had a banana along with it to avoid stomach issues that others have described.

I stayed up until 5:30 - or about 40 minutes after waking up - and then went to bed, doing a bit of MILD (repeating 'you are dreaming' over and over). Falling asleep wasn't the easiest thing in the world, but eventually it did happen. Here's where things got interesting.

As I was nodding off, I started to get the usual dream imagery and my right forearm started to buzz/vibrate. An odd sensation, but not sufficient to wake me up. Then, as I was getting further into the dreamy state of consciousness, I started hearing this very loud noise, something like gears grinding or power lines buzzing. This noise seemed to be originating within my head. If it weren't for the fact that I just took some chemicals, I'd be worried, but here, I was rather excited and continued to relax. The buzzing grew louder and I found myself in darkness. I tried to open my eyes (my 'dream' eyes), but was only able to get fleeting images and nothing too consistent. What was interesting is that as I was in this darkness, I was still well aware of my body lying in bed. Shortly after, I woke up (for real) and after some tossing around the bed fell asleep again.

The rest of the night was a massive number of segmented dreams  - that is, short and unconnected dream stories, rapidly succeeding each other. At the end of each dream I woke up briefly and fell asleep again. In the last dream I recall I even did a RC but I was sufficiently satisfied that it passed even though I was in a dream. Specifically, I was driving a car and I have noticed that usually in my dreams I have trouble maintaining constant speed or breaking on short notice. In short, I'm a poor driver in dreamland. So, in this last dream, as I was driving and breaking nicely I went 'huh, I must not be dreaming - this must be real'. ::lol::  Scrap that RC idea.

I woke up at around 12:30pm - after a whopping 12 hours of sleep! Though I felt a little groggy, I suspect this is not due to the supplements but rather because of the extended rest. I intend to try this again in about a week or so. Perhaps instead of setting the alarm, I will use a natural night time awakening as a time for taking the pills.

----------


## Thor

> I proceeded to open up two caps (so, 8mg of galantamine and 400mg of choline) and mixed it with 1/2 cup of water. The brew tasted quite sour, but not quite like lemon sour - closer to the sourness of the powdered gummy candies.



What was the point of this? Why didn't you just swallow the capsules whole?

----------


## BlinkOnceForYes

> What was the point of this? Why didn't you just swallow the capsules whole?



Decrease the time to absorption by foregoing the gelatine capsule. Simply put, I wanted it to kick in faster.

----------


## MrT1981

I've been trying with melatonin and B6 for a while now and it seems to have increased vividness and recall but I've not had any lucids yet. I've just ordered some galantamine and choline from one of the links above so will see how that goes.

----------


## spaceexplorer

> Decrease the time to absorption by foregoing the gelatine capsule. Simply put, I wanted it to kick in faster.



To be honest, Galantamine is so fast acting anyway, that i'd suggest not doing this. By the time you've fallen asleep the capsule would be long gone and the galantamine in your system.
You risk it kicking in too soon and not being able to get back to sleep with that method.

----------


## MrT1981

Well I got my 4mg galantamine 200mg choline yesterday so last night I went to bed at about 1am and read for a while and set my alarm for 6.30 so I should have between 4.5 and 5 hours sleep. Woke up to my alarm and took one capsule, then tried to WILD. I kept getting to the point of feeling vibrations and hearing a loud buzzing noise but could never get any further. After about 20 mins of this I noticed that my stomach kept rumbling which was somewhat off-putting but I guess that was one of the side effects I've read about. I carried on trying to WILD a bit longer but eventually decided to put on a lucid induction mp3 and just let sleep come naturally. I then had a whole series of very short but very vivid dreams where I would wake after each one, and in 3 of these I realised it was a false awakening and did a reality check which confirmed my suspicions. I confess I had been watching some porn before bed so my mind was somewhat preoccupied, and I successfully managed to summon a random girl (I specifically left the details up to my subconcious and was pleasantly suprised to find a very attractive blonde although I would say I preferred brunettes - apparently me and my subconcious have different tastes  :smiley: ) then just for the hell of it I decided to give myself a penis enlargement (I figure if you just summoned a porn star you might as well give yourself the right proportions too  :wink2: ) and again was pleasantly suprised at the results. Sadly because these LDs were very short I woke up before I could do anything with it... In another one of the LDs I managed to summon someone who I usually fail to get, but I found that although I could see it was them, I couldn't fully open my eyes in the dream so I could never see their face properly which was quite a bizarre experience. I gradually became able to fight my eyelids but again I woke up before I could fully open them.

All in all though very pleased with the results - after a huge dry spell lasting months I got 3 LDs in one night! I'm going to leave it a couple of days now and then try again  :smiley:

----------


## Vismund Cygnus

I bought a thing of GalantaMind a few weeks ago and WBTB - I also use some 5-HTP to sleep. It works pretty good - my dreams are longer and more vivid. I only use it once every 3-4 nights.

The only thing is, I'm not sesnitive to the 4mg size at all. It's straight 8mg. I took 12mg once and that was awesome, but I don't wanna overdo it.

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## Grgur

I had two attempts so far Both successful Not very high level of lucidity though

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## Grgur

So far I'm responding good. 4 attempts 4 success stories.

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## BlinkOnceForYes

> So far I'm responding good. 4 attempts 4 success stories.



Are you taking 2 pills 4 hours after sleeping? Also, are you staying up for ~ 1 hour before going back to back, doing WILD?

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## Grgur

I take only one pill (4mg Galantamine, 200mg Choline) after 4~5 hours of sleep. In two cases I went straight back to bed and in other two I watched some movies for an hour or so. 
I don't use any induction technique, but I do experience (unintentionally) some pressure and buzzing as described by some Wild practitioners.
I hope I won't develop resistivity to this stuff..

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## BlinkOnceForYes

Thanks for that info.

So far, I found staying up for an hour to be more effective than going right back to bed.

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## Jammy

Just tested this myself. I took 2mg melatonin before i went to sleep. Slept for 5-6 hours. Stood up, tok one Lucid Dreamer pill from dreamamins.com with 4mg Galantamine, 200mg Choline and lay down to sleep. I changed positions after about 20 mins i guess and some time after i woke up at my old apartment, inside the dream. Had some interesting LD. Gonna try 8mg in some days. It works really well.

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## RunflaCruiser

I ALWAYS USED THE 8MG, - worked well.
Did you feel like you didnt get a good nights sleep the next day?

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## Jammy

Havent actually gotten to sleep yet  :wink2:  So il report tomorrow about the sleep. Are you thinking of the galantamine staying in the body?

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## Jammy

Slept alright the next day. Btw did another test with this supplement this morning. Works like a charm! And if nothing else, its works like hell as a placebo on my confidence. Used 2 pills, 8mg this time

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## moe007

I have not used galantamine in quite a while, and recently decided to give it a shot again.

It worked on two consecutive weekends. Although I tend to feel a slight attachment to my real body in the dream, impairing my locomotive ability in the dream.

These past two trials, Ive taken 1-3mg of melatonin at night, and 8mg galantamine/900mg choline after 5-6 hours of sleep.

I seem to be stuck in a long chain of lucids, all of which are relatively low lucidity level, but it is getting better and more vivid. For example, this weekend it was much more detailed and vivid and I had much more control than last weekend, I hope this trend continues.

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## DreamChaser

2 Lucid Dreamer pills (8mg Galantamine and 400mg Choline) was too much for me at WBTB and I just kept awake.
Any ideas?
One doesnt seem to be enough as well.

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## moe007

> 2 Lucid Dreamer pills (8mg Galantamine and 400mg Choline) was too much for me at WBTB and I just kept awake.
> Any ideas?
> One doesnt seem to be enough as well.



Assuming they are capsules and not pills, take one of the galantamine capsules and open it, pour half of the contents out, and close it again. Also try upping your choline dosage, to say 800? Try to buy the choline supplement that is free from combination with any other supplement, so you can monitor and play with your doses more freely.

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## DreamChaser

> Assuming they are capsules and not pills, take one of the galantamine capsules and open it, pour half of the contents out, and close it again. Also try upping your choline dosage, to say 800? Try to buy the choline supplement that is free from combination with any other supplement, so you can monitor and play with your doses more freely.



Yes they are openable capsules. (is that a word?)
I do have choline britrate too in 650mg Tablets, so i'll do the math:

Total with one and a half capsules and a 650mg Choline additionally=

*6mg Galantamine and 950mg Choline.*

Is this too much Choline or should I break it in half too, to make it 625mg Choline total? 
I heard geriatrics were given 1200 mg doses daily for altzheimers.

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## RunflaCruiser

..or maybe mix in a little melatonin.

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## moe007

> Yes they are openable capsules. (is that a word?)
> I do have choline britrate too in 650mg Tablets, so i'll do the math:
> 
> Total with one and a half capsules and a 650mg Choline additionally=
> 
> *6mg Galantamine and 950mg Choline.*
> 
> Is this too much Choline or should I break it in half too, to make it 625mg Choline total? 
> I heard geriatrics were given 1200 mg doses daily for altzheimers.



I do not think anything <1000mg of choline is anywhere near toxic. I mean you should definitely not ingest like 5 grams, but less than a gram is pretty safe. 

I like to use a higher dose of choline because it seems like My body needs more choline to use in conversion to acetylcholine, but that is just me. 

Mess with it a bit and find the right combination. I dont recommend using a higher dose of galantamine though until you know exactly how you react to it.

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## DreamChaser

> I do not think anything <1000mg of choline is anywhere near toxic. I mean you should definitely not ingest like 5 grams, but less than a gram is pretty safe. 
> 
> I like to use a higher dose of choline because it seems like My body needs more choline to use in conversion to acetylcholine, but that is just me. 
> 
> Mess with it a bit and find the right combination. I dont recommend using a higher dose of galantamine though until you know exactly how you react to it.



Thanks I took it as my above post said.
I had very cool vivid dreams at a WBTB, but no lucidity.
I had stayed awake like 2 hours tho in my WBTB. Maybe too long and I was too awake.
Was more vivid though and I was living with 2 girls in my dream too.
 ::D:

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## Nihao

> I had stayed awake like 2 hours tho in my WBTB. Maybe too long and I was too awake.



Some people like me and probably you can't get easily asleep after taking Galantamine. Take 200mg L-Theanine (same time as Galantamine) if it's too weak, add 0.5mg Melatonin. Also go to back to bed instantly - that makes more sleepy. As to time 2 days ago I had excellent WILDing after 1h40min. I took my clock to check the time then after I laid back I had instant shift into LD. Weird but worked.

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## moe007

> Some people like me and probably you can't get easily asleep after taking Galantamine. Take 200mg L-Theanine (same time as Galantamine) if it's too weak, add 0.5mg Melatonin. Also go to back to bed instantly - that makes more sleepy. As to time 2 days ago I had excellent WILDing after 1h40min. I took my clock to check the time then after I laid back I had instant shift into LD. Weird but worked.



Yes I agree, two hours may be a bit much.


For me, I use theanine as well, but I also instantly go back to bed and get to work on SP.

In the 20-30 mins that I spend entering and maintaining my SP, the galantamine starts to kick in, and so does the theanine, which will cause me to slip into a very strong SP, which in turn sends me into a chain of lucids.

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## DreamChaser

> Some people like me and probably you can't get easily asleep after taking Galantamine. Take 200mg L-Theanine (same time as Galantamine) if it's too weak, add 0.5mg Melatonin. Also go to back to bed instantly - that makes more sleepy. As to time 2 days ago I had excellent WILDing after 1h40min. I took my clock to check the time then after I laid back I had instant shift into LD. Weird but worked.



Thanks.
The L-Theanine does what? Help sleep or keep awake?
And should I take some before bed too, as well as at beginning of WBTB?

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## moe007

> Thanks.
> The L-Theanine does what? Help sleep or keep awake?
> And should I take some before bed too, as well as at beginning of WBTB?



Theanine is an amino acid (protein) and helps you relax and calm down. It helps you sleep technically.

Take it with the galantamine, to counteract the wakefulness properties of galantamine.

You could take it before bed, but it wouldnt do you much good.

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## DreamChaser

Thanks moe.

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## Jammy

Does anyone know how much L-Theanine green tea exctract contains? I read somewhere about it but it didnt stand how much.

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## Nihao

> Thanks.
> The L-Theanine does what? Help sleep or keep awake?
> And should I take some before bed too, as well as at beginning of WBTB?



Contrary to Valerian which knocks you down (you never know when) L-Theanine (with Melatonin) helps me (like Moe007) to go deep close to SP and have control at that time even with Galantamine working. I have to add Melatonin as L-Theanine alone is too weak for me.
I checked most timing options and clearly L-Theanine works best when taken together with Galantamine(+Choline). It peaks after ~40min while the latter after 1h.
For more info about these four and different timing / propotions see my thread:
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=70296

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## DreamChaser

> Contrary to Valerian which knocks you down (you never know when) L-Theanine (with Melatonin) helps me (like Moe007) to go deep close to SP and have control at that time even with Galantamine working. I have to add Melatonin as L-Theanine alone is too weak for me.
> I checked most timing options and clearly L-Theanine works best when taken together with Galantamine(+Choline). It peaks after ~40min while the latter after 1h.
> For more info about these four and different timing / propotions see my thread:
> http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=70296



Instead of adding Melatonin, why not just take less Galantamine?
(Take some out of the capsule and supplement some choline by taking another tablet of choline.)

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## moe007

> Instead of adding Melatonin, why not just take less Galantamine?
> (Take some out of the capsule and supplement some choline by taking another tablet of choline.)



Dont lessen the galantamine, because if it is keeping you awake, that is the drug and not the amount of it. taking 6mg or 8mg will have the same insomniac effects on you. It varies by person, you seem to be more influenced by stimulative properties than others.

I would not take melatonin with it, but that is just me. Melatonin inhibits REM sleep, and would lessen the time spent in REM if you were to take it with galantamine. So you would have less time for any dreams, lucid or not.

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## Nihao

> Melatonin inhibits REM sleep, and would lessen the time spent in REM if you were to take it with galantamine. So you would have less time for any dreams, lucid or not.



Usually I have 1h LD after taking these fab four. I had the same while taking Galantamine + Choline alone. I will try again to remove Melatonin and see how it affects the length of my LD if I manage to WILD.

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## DreamChaser

I took 6mg Galantamine and 950mg Choline as I previously mentioned again this morning at a WBTB.
This time I had a cool lucid and was able to fly properly for the first time.
It was a FA too with full SP at the beginning.

I was quite tired, so I may try L-theanine on the mornings I am not so tired.

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## moe007

> I took 6mg Galantamine and 950mg Choline as I previously mentioned again this morning at a WBTB.
> This time I had a cool lucid and was able to fly properly for the first time.
> It was a FA too with full SP at the beginning.
> 
> I was quite tired, so I may try L-theanine on the mornings I am not so tired.



I am happy for your success.

When I use galantamine i tend to be grounded in the dreams, mobility wise. I feel like I cannot move freely as much.

I recommend not using galantamine on a daily basis, let >48 hours pass from dose to dose, it takes it 48 hours to clear your system.

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## DreamChaser

> I am happy for your success.
> 
> When I use galantamine i tend to be grounded in the dreams, mobility wise. I feel like I cannot move freely as much.
> 
> I recommend not using galantamine on a daily basis, let >48 hours pass from dose to dose, it takes it 48 hours to clear your system.



Yes I have read that. Silly thing is this was the second morning I took this in a row, and it gave me a LD.

What can we try that is everyday then?

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## moe007

> Yes I have read that. Silly thing is this was the second morning I took this in a row, and it gave me a LD.
> 
> What can we try that is everyday then?



Well yeah it could work two days consecutively, but that means that the galantamine is accumulating in your blood/plasma. 

Which in turn will lead to tolerance, and a need for a higher dose. Even with the higher dose, your body will have become accustomed with the effects, and may negate some of the potentially helpful effects of the drug. I recommend at least 3 days in between galantamine uses, but if you really want to you could go for 2 days in between. I would let a full 48 hours set before taking it again.

You could try melatonin before bed daily. Melatonin in doses of >3mg can suppress REM sleep for quite a bit, 4-6 hours depending on the individual's response to it as well as metabolism. When the drug wears off, you are sent into REM-Rebound, which will give you long, intense REM cycles which cause very vivid dreams, and a higher chance you will become lucid.

You could also try Vitamin B6 + tryptophan. If you do not have the supplement, Try eating some turkey for tryptophan, and a banana for B6. Cheddar cheese is another good source of tryptophan. These should be consumed before bedtime, and have the same effects as melatonin. 

There are 5htp supplments which have the same REM suppressing qualities. 150-300mg before bed should be sufficient.

L-dopa supplements taken at WBTB time, INSTEAD of galantamine are also quite helpful and are a strong WILD aid. If taken before bed, they will cause intense dreams, but reduce your sleep quality greatly.

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## DreamChaser

> Well yeah it could work two days consecutively, but that means that the galantamine is accumulating in your blood/plasma. 
> 
> Which in turn will lead to tolerance, and a need for a higher dose. Even with the higher dose, your body will have become accustomed with the effects, and may negate some of the potentially helpful effects of the drug. I recommend at least 3 days in between galantamine uses, but if you really want to you could go for 2 days in between. I would let a full 48 hours set before taking it again.
> 
> You could try melatonin before bed daily. Melatonin in doses of >3mg can suppress REM sleep for quite a bit, 4-6 hours depending on the individual's response to it as well as metabolism. When the drug wears off, you are sent into REM-Rebound, which will give you long, intense REM cycles which cause very vivid dreams, and a higher chance you will become lucid.
> 
> You could also try Vitamin B6 + tryptophan. If you do not have the supplement, Try eating some turkey for tryptophan, and a banana for B6. Cheddar cheese is another good source of tryptophan. These should be consumed before bedtime, and have the same effects as melatonin. 
> 
> There are 5htp supplments which have the same REM suppressing qualities. 150-300mg before bed should be sufficient.
> ...



Thanks again.
 :smiley:

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## Jammy

Dr. Yuschak talks about taking piracetam after each session to get the galantamine out of the body faster and to prevent tolerance. That way you can do it every second night. Anyone tested piracetam?

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## moe007

> Dr. Yuschak talks about taking piracetam after each session to get the galantamine out of the body faster and to prevent tolerance. That way you can do it every second night. Anyone tested piracetam?



My honest opinion on piracetam,

just wait 3 days in between galantamine uses and let it clear out of your system before you try it again.

Why use another drug, and quite a large does of it (3-4grams), to counteract another drug?

Just let it clear out before you use it again.

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## Grgur

My last four out of eight total tries were not successful.  Increase of the dosage doesn't have any effect.

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## Ulises

Is it possible to replace L-theanine with Valerian?

Would Valerian, have taken together with Galantamina, the same effect that L-theanine?

Thank you for answering.

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## Nihao

> Is it possible to replace L-theanine with Valerian?
> 
> Would Valerian, have taken together with Galantamina, the same effect that L-theanine?
> 
> Thank you for answering.



I tried both and as for me Valerian had a "knock out effect" that is better for DILD contrary to L-Theanine ( I took 200mg + 0.7mg Melatonin ) which gently leads you to deeper threshold stage and allows for better conscious control thus is better for WILD. The other positive side of the latter for me is required much lower doze. Nevertheless I know some folks who use succesfully Valerian + Galantamine + Choline.

Aaaa I forgot... I took the same usual doze of Galantamine+Choline+L-Theanine without Melatonin and it was a bit more difficult to WILD. On the other side it was just once and I can't draw any conclusions.

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## moe007

> Is it possible to replace L-theanine with Valerian?
> 
> Would Valerian, have taken together with Galantamina, the same effect that L-theanine?
> 
> Thank you for answering.



Valerian Root tends to work on different types of receptors in the brain, focusing on the GABA receptors. It is known to induce sedation, my theory being that it stimulates the GABA receptors, which are also known for being the main neurotransmitter receptor when benzodiazepine is taken, which would release certain neurotransmitters that induce the sleepiness.

L-Theanine on the opposite hand, is only an amino acid. It is one of the essential amino acids, and is not considered a "supplement" or "drug".  Theanine stimulates more than just the GABA receptors, and has an effect on many neurotransmitters; including dopamine, serotonin, and after your brain goes through its 5htp conversion cycle, melatonin.

Valerian root in theory, COULD work, but it produces significantly different effects. Theanine is more calming, by affecting many neurotransmitters; while valerian is more sedative by acting on the GABA receptors.

Sorry for the plentiful technical terms, I tried to make it as simple as I could.  :smiley: 





> I tried both and as for me Valerian had a "knock out effect" that is better for DILD contrary to L-Theanine ( I took 200mg + 0.7mg Melatonin ) which gently leads you to deeper threshold stage and allows for better conscious control thus is better for WILD. The other positive side of the latter for me is required much lower doze. Nevertheless I know some folks who use succesfully Valerian + Galantamine + Choline.
> 
> Aaaa I forgot... I took the same usual doze of Galantamine+Choline+L-Theanine without Melatonin and it was a bit more difficult to WILD. On the other side it was just once and I can't draw any conclusions.



Just keep in mind, different drugs/supplements/hormones/proteins have radically different effects for different people. If Valerian knocks you out, it might make somebody else alert. 

Personally, Valerian does not induce any much more sleepiness than 3mg of melatonin does.

Use your judgement about your own tolerance/reactions when tinkering with doses to find the right one.

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## Nihao

> Just keep in mind, different drugs/supplements/hormones/proteins have radically different effects for different people. If Valerian knocks you out, it might make somebody else alert.



Yeah, in principles I agree entirely. Now let's find a folk who couldn't sleep for at least 4h after taking 2g of Valerian :wink2:

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## moe007

> Yeah, in principles I agree entirely. Now let's find a folk who couldn't sleep for at least 4h after taking 2g of Valerian



I would volunteer to try it, as I react very tolerantly to sedatives, but I have no Valerian root currently.. and god knows when Ill remember to buy some.  ::?:

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## Nihao

I tried it a several times. Valerian is very insidious fella. After intake you think that it's too weak - not much drowsiness. Then suddenly you get a blow and wake up next day asking "f..., how it happened?" Obviously it may be nicer to others...

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## ZenVortex

Insomnia after taking galantamine is a problem for me too.  What about Benadryl (diphenhydramine)?  This is used in non prescription sleeping pills at a dose of 25 mg and is an interesting substance because it has been reported that if you take a large amount (250+ mg), you can go from normal waking consciousness directly into a LD. 

It is probably quite toxic at such a high dose, but 25mg is the normal dose for insomnia.  Seems like it could work synergistically with galantamine & choline...  Anybody tried it?



BTW, the WIKIPEDIA entry for diphenhydramine recently contained the following statement, which has now been deleted/censored: 

The mental effects of higher doses (250+ mg) are described by many as "dreaming while awake" involving visual and auditory hallucinations that, unlike those experienced with most psychedelic drugs, often cannot be readily distinguished from reality. People who consume a high recreational dose can possibly find themselves in a hallucination which places them in a familiar situation with people and friends and rooms they know, while in reality being in a totally different setting.

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## Quark

Does anyone know of any place that will ship Galantamine to the UK?

Thanks

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## MrT1981

I got mine from http://www.dreamamins.com/

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## Quark

> I got mine from http://www.dreamamins.com/



Thanks! Nice one.

Does anyone know the extent to which metabolism affects the Galantamine peak duration, and onset. Furthermore, with regards to the half-life of Galantamine, how much does one's metabolism affect it?

Assumption: I have a high basal metabolic rate.

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## moe007

> Insomnia after taking galantamine is a problem for me too.  What about Benadryl (diphenhydramine)?  This is used in non prescription sleeping pills at a dose of 25 mg and is an interesting substance because it has been reported that if you take a large amount (250+ mg), you can go from normal waking consciousness directly into a LD. 
> 
> It is probably quite toxic at such a high dose, but 25mg is the normal dose for insomnia.  Seems like it could work synergistically with galantamine & choline...  Anybody tried it?
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, the WIKIPEDIA entry for diphenhydramine recently contained the following statement, which has now been deleted/censored: 
> 
> The mental effects of higher doses (250+ mg) are described by many as "dreaming while awake" involving visual and auditory hallucinations that, unlike those experienced with most psychedelic drugs, often cannot be readily distinguished from reality. People who consume a high recreational dose can possibly find themselves in a hallucination which places them in a familiar situation with people and friends and rooms they know, while in reality being in a totally different setting.




First of all, Diphenhydramine is an anticholinergic drug. It inhibits choline transfer throughout your body. Choline is the precursor to the primary dreaming neurotransmitter, acetylcholine. Hence, dramamine/benedryl/etc will not increase your chance to a lucid dream but infact decrease it.

The wiki quote is regarding an OVERDOSE on an anticholinergic. Yes, an acute overdose will cause intense hallucinations that are indistinguishable from reality. This is extremely dangerous, as not only you become delusional, you also risk liver necrosis; such high doses will have to be metabolized by your liver, which may not enjoy such a task.

I severely advise anybody reading this thread not to take such a high dose as you may end up in the emergency room.

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## ZenVortex

QUESTION:  Is anyone doing Yuschak's WILD meditation -- the qigong visualization (moving the dream body away from the physical body) followed by "seeding" -- after taking the supplements?  I tried this a few times but fell asleep without WILDing.  Any suggestions?

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## Nihao

> QUESTION:  Is anyone doing Yuschak's WILD meditation -- the qigong visualization (moving the dream body away from the physical body) followed by "seeding" -- after taking the supplements?  I tried this a few times but fell asleep without WILDing.  Any suggestions?



I don't follow any particular school of WILDing but for sure supplements make it much much easier. ( One of ) The trick is to to find the way to be conscious after ~1h when the galantamine and others kicks off. Some guys after ingestion stay out of bed for some time (20min to 1h). For me going back to bed directly after wee wee works best. I just lay more then 1h and it seems like 10 min. Seriously I can't comprihend it. The formula that I take ( 4mg galantamine, 200mg choline, 200mg L-Theanine, 0.7mg Melatonin ) keeps me in the state between dream and reality. I mean I can't get asleep but also I am nicely sleepy. After about 1h20min I look at the clock and realise that time is high. From that moment I try to WILD "seriously" and usually it's so easy like moving a finger (in normal state). I kinda go deeper and slow down vibrations (according to esoteric sources it should be actually inversely but that's how I feel it). After a minute or few I detach from my body usually turning and creeping from the bed. Sometimes I hear the strange loud rough sound during a trigger point. Hope that helps.

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## Patjunfa

Anyone tried Yohimbine or Muccana puriens? For dream control and self rememberence in the dream? thomas yusak gives very interesting results from this

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## Nihao

> Anyone tried Yohimbine or Muccana puriens? For dream control and self rememberence in the dream? thomas yusak gives very interesting results from this



I tried some time ago Mucuna Pruriens 200mg (with Gal and chol ) about 3 times with no improvement on dream control and self confidence in LD. I still have it and maybe will check it out next time... BTW I noticed a slightly better vision after adding to my usual Gal+Chol+LThea+Mela formula 200mg B6.

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## moe007

> Anyone tried Yohimbine or Muccana puriens? For dream control and self rememberence in the dream? thomas yusak gives very interesting results from this



I bought a bottle of Muccana puriens and its finished now, and I still have not finished trying it  :tongue2: 

I would say it is the most tricky supplement, to get the timing and dose right.

When buying them, go for the lower levodopa percentage, because it has more Muccana puriens in them, and the other substances besides levodopa in Muccana puriens are the stuff that allow smooth conversion from levodopa to dopamine. 

Also, it is important to note that on Muccana puriens, your stomach content, and previous day's food intake is a notable factor. 

The more vitamin B6 in your system, the more of the Muccana puriens you will convert IN YOUR GUT; which is not the wanted effect. You want the levodopa to reach the blood-brain barrier.

For the past 6 or so months, I have not used Muccana puriens nor have I been recently reading anything regarding them. New stuff may have been discovered, or old stuff refuted. Medicine is very fickle.


Wise words: Do your research.

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## ZenVortex

I just started exploring Galantamine-based supplements and had a nice DILD with 4 mg Galantamine + 50 mg Phenylalanine + 3.5 mg Nicotine (1/2 of a 7 mg patch).  So far haven't been able to WILD but am working on it.

Galantamine will be absorbed faster if already dissolved in water.  I haven't tried it yet, probably tastes nasty but sugar will help.  Phenylalanine is worth investigating because it is metabolized into acetylcholine AND dopamine.  I've always had good dreams from Phenylalanine.  Definitely a plus factor.

BTW. What I'm doing now is grinding up tablets (such as phenylalanine and choline bitartrate) and putting the powder into capsules for faster absorption.

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## Patjunfa

L thamine and Melatonin are to help one get to sleep right? I don't know much about these except what I've read on this thread, so correct me if I'm wrong please. They'r differerent to 5htp which people can take at the beginning of the night, suppressing rem sleep to have a good quality of nrem sleep and benift from the rem rebound effect.
My problem when I take galantamine\chloine that in the hour or 2 before I'd have to get up (bout 7.30) I am kept awake by any noise my daughter or wife make in the room. I get to sleep after taking it but after become too wakeful. I'm considering lthamine or something to help with this
Thanks

----------


## dodobird

> L thamine and Melatonin are to help one get to sleep right? I don't know much about these except what I've read on this thread, so correct me if I'm wrong please. They'r differerent to 5htp which people can take at the beginning of the night, suppressing rem sleep to have a good quality of nrem sleep and benift from the rem rebound effect.
> My problem when I take galantamine\chloine that in the hour or 2 before I'd have to get up (bout 7.30) I am kept awake by any noise my daughter or wife make in the room. I get to sleep after taking it but after become too wakeful. I'm considering lthamine or something to help with this
> Thanks



Yes, L-Theanine works quite well. But in any case you can also consider taking the supplements earlier at night. In my experience if I'm taking them just 2 hours before I have to wake up, I am not tired enough to fall back asleep. It's better to take them 4-4:30 hours after going to sleep, or (4-3 hours before you wake up, depending on how much you sleep ).

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## Patjunfa

Thanks I reckon that's a good idea. I'm wondering if I am going to get some l thamine is there any point in also using 5htp? Do many people here use something like this to get quality sleep by getting focused nrem sleep in the 1st part of the night and rem rebound effect later?

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## dodobird

> Thanks I reckon that's a good idea. I'm wondering if I am going to get some l thamine is there any point in also using 5htp? Do many people here use something like this to get quality sleep by getting focused nrem sleep in the 1st part of the night and rem rebound effect later?



I would stick with just the G+CH+L-TH at first, because they are quite effective. At some point if you want to have LD's more often ( more than about twice a week ) then you can try experimenting with more supplements. I had some short LD's with the supplements that you take at bedtime, such as 5-HTP and B6, but I did not experiment much with it.

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## Patjunfa

cool thanks for that. Will do

P

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## Nihao

Well, Recently I tried a couple of times 200g 5-HTP straight before bed with these (G+Ch+LTh+Melatonin) after 4.5h of sleep with v.good result (as for me) Still had problems with vision and control but comparing to previous attempts 5-HTP gave a bit more overall quality ( it is suppose to extend REM periods later as a rebound effect )

----------


## Ulises

Last night I tried taking valerian + hop and galantamine + choline. It was a success, I wasn't as nervous as taking just galantamine + choline, I was feeling relaxed and I fell asleep soon. I had a very agreeable lucid experience. I will try again in a few days.

Greetings.

----------


## nina

Nice, thanks for sharing.  :smiley: 

What is hop?

----------


## TheLight

> Nice, thanks for sharing. 
> 
> What is hop?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humulus

----------


## Darkmatters

Hey all, latecomer to the thread, but it's converted me. I've got Lucid Dreamer and Piracetam, and I bought B-5 separately, but it turns out the capsules are 500 mgs. I notice in Galantamind it's only got 100 mg of B-5. Would 500 be too much? 

Should I open up a capsule and divide the powder into 5 parts?

----------


## beachgirl

thanks for the posts, everyone
i only tried it once and it gave me a migraine
after all it is a vasodilator
but maybe that was just a coincidence
anyone else have this problem?

----------


## Darkmatters

I went ahead and took the combo last night - Lucid Dreamer Galantamine (4mg) + Choline (200mg) and one of the massive horse pills of B-5 (500mg).

No headache at all... well, maybe very very slightly, but nothing that bothered me at all. Only other side effect was a slight slight upset stomach... hardly even noticed it though. I'd say the side effects were so slight I was hardly aware of them. Also, my brain feels fucking INCREDIBLE!!!!! It feels slightly... pressurized, but in a good way. Like it's being massaged. As someone said earlier in here, I have a strong sense of wellbeing. 

Didn't get a lucid dream, but I did have several short but very vivid dreams that felt powerful, more real than usual I'd say. But there are a couple of factors that could have prevented lucidity:





> 1 - I decided to start the daily regimen of Piracetam as a cognitive/ memory aid, and for the 1st 2 days you're supposed to mega-dose, so I took 8000mg (10 capsules) divided into 3 doses, meaning the last dose was only a few hours before bedtime. Probably pretty well counter-acted any lucidity I could have got. 
> 
> 2 - Only got 2.5 hours of good deep n-REM sleep before trying a WBTB. I was confused when I woke up and thought it had been 3.5, but upon waking up in the morning I realized it had only been 2.5. 
> 
> 3 - only got 4 more hours of sleep AFTER the WBTB. So, a total of only 6.5 hours sleep (had to work today).



Any of these factors could have prevented lucidity. 

Interestingly, when I took the Lucid Dreamer and B-5 I was pretty excited and afraid I wouldn't be able to get back to sleep... but I was also very tired (seeing as I had only got 2.5 hrs sleep). I laid awake for a while trying to WILD, then found myself dreaming about trying to fall asleep, as somebody mentioned earlier. 

I woke several times after the WBTB, each time from a short intense dream. The last dream was longer, but then it was time to get up and go to work. I have a feeling if I had gone back to sleep I would have had increasingly longer dreams, and possibly a lucid or 2. 

I'm debating if I should try it again tonight (I'm off work tomorrow). I'm excited about it, I WANT to do it, but today is the last megadose day for the Piracetam. Though I got an earlier start on it today and can finish it many hours before bedtime. Heh... I'll probably go ahead and try it, and then have to wait like a week before doing it again.

----------


## Darkmatters

Report on last night's attempt:

This time I got 4.5 hrs sleep before my WBTB, and it was a day off, so I could sleep in afterward. Still didn't get a lucid. 

I'm thinking it's because of all the Piracetam I've been taking. The megadose days are over now though, and I work for the next 2 days. I"m going to try this...

On tues I won't take any Piracetam, and then I'll try the Lucid Dreamer again tues night without any in my system. I'll also open a capsule of B-5 and only take about a 5th of the contents, which should be about 100mg. I really want this to work!

----------


## Darkmatters

Yes!!! Had 2 lucids last night!! 

In a while I'll bring my bedside journal downstairs and copy them into my online DJ and link it here. 

Here's what I did differently from the last 2 times:

I didn't take any Piracetam at all yesterday. I also doubled the dose of the Lucid Dreamer... So 8mg of Galantamine. Went ahead and just took a whole 500mg capsule of B-5 though... I hadn't divided it up before going to sleep and felt too disoriented and sleepy to attempt it during my brief WBTB. 

Weird things I noticed...

I was basically blind in both dreams. Pitch black, though in one I could see a wasp flying toward me. I suspect I was getting signals from my sleeping body, because at the end of the 1st dream I decided my eyes must be closed and I was afraid if I opened them I'd wake up. Went into an FA instead. 

I was dressed funny in both dreams... a robe, socks and mittens. I think I was feeling the covers and dreamed up this funky getup to explain why I felt cloth all over my body. 

I knew I was dreaming almost immediately, but decided to try some RCs (which I've never done in a dream before). 1st I tried putting my finger through my palm, but couldn't tell if it was working because I couldn't see - though it did feel pretty weird. So I did a nose pinch and could breathe perfectly well. It felt so cool... I started laughing with the joy of knowing I was dreaming. 

I then walked to my window and tried to press through the glass. Another thing I've never been able to do before. I was curious about how it would feel. I pressed both hands against the glass and slowly it started to bend, felt like stretched clingwrap. Then my hands and my head just went right through to the outside... I could suddenly hear wind and birds. But I was confused about my legs... it just was awkward because I wasn't sure if I'd be able to fly so I didn't know how to get my legs through without falling. Weird because any time I try to fly in dreams by dropping from a roof I can always fly. I think I was more worried because I couldn't see... how was I going to manage flying while blind? 

Anyway, I'll put the rest of the details in the DJ later on and put a link here.

Link

----------


## Jules2007

Darkmatters-I'm almost always blind in part of my dreams when taking Galantamine too, I guess this is pretty common? Does anyone know what can be done about this? I had this happen this morning and I tried to make it light or go somewhere else but I couldn't. 

I kept either waking up or having a FA after a couple of minutes (don't know which one) about 3 times and the same thing kept happening over and over. I think I just gave up in the end. Galantamine would be great for me if it wasn't for this light problem! I've only noticed it when taking 2 capsules though, one doesn't always give me a lucid, but when I do get one it's usually better.

----------


## Aluna

Has any one been able to find a source of the 9 mg 8% Yohimbine solid tablets that T.Yuschak talks about in his book please?

Thanks!

----------


## beachgirl

@ZenVortex: do you ever just take phenylalamine in the WBTB time?

----------


## dallyup52

You are in a different state of consciousness then you are used to, is all.  You are not really blind, you are just not processing the energy encountered into images that the "mind" processes with recent memory.  Either shift your state of consciousness (many techniques for that and it is quite individual) or allow your consciousness to expand and "see" in a different way.

The Lucid/OBE state is very powerful and the threshold of many very exciting worlds.

Sam





> Darkmatters-I'm almost always blind in part of my dreams when taking Galantamine too, I guess this is pretty common? Does anyone know what can be done about this? I had this happen this morning and I tried to make it light or go somewhere else but I couldn't. 
> 
> I kept either waking up or having a FA after a couple of minutes (don't know which one) about 3 times and the same thing kept happening over and over. I think I just gave up in the end. Galantamine would be great for me if it wasn't for this light problem! I've only noticed it when taking 2 capsules though, one doesn't always give me a lucid, but when I do get one it's usually better.

----------


## byungsukimmishi

Has anyone ever tried a Phenibut, Melatonin and B6 combo? I bet that would work wonders.

----------


## SData

Hi,
I would like to buy this Galantamine + Choline mixture a.k.a Lucid Dreamer from dreamamins.com but it is not shipping to my country, Turkey. Is there anyone who can buy it from there and then ship it to me when he/she recieves it? I can make the payment to you via PayPal.

Quote me or PM me to answer and we can talk about the details.

----------


## mrdave

Do any of you think it's ok to take choline without galantamine?

Do you need days off choline just like galantamine?

thanks

----------


## ethan_hines

> Darkmatters-I'm almost always blind in part of my dreams when taking Galantamine too, I guess this is pretty common? Does anyone know what can be done about this?.



Try yelling "Clarity Now!"

----------


## Specialis Sapientia

> Hi,
> I would like to buy this Galantamine + Choline mixture a.k.a Lucid Dreamer from dreamamins.com but it is not shipping to my country, Turkey. Is there anyone who can buy it from there and then ship it to me when he/she recieves it? I can make the payment to you via PayPal.
> 
> Quote me or PM me to answer and we can talk about the details.



They can ship it to you. Just e-mail them and say you live in Turkey, but Turkey isn't on the list of countries to choose from. That's what I did, and it worked. They will just create the "Turkey" option on the droplist.

----------


## tommo

> Hey all, latecomer to the thread, but it's converted me. I've got Lucid Dreamer and Piracetam, and I bought B-5 separately, but it turns out the capsules are 500 mgs. I notice in Galantamind it's only got 100 mg of B-5. Would 500 be too much? 
> 
> Should I open up a capsule and divide the powder into 5 parts?



How the hell did you get Piracetam?

----------


## SData

> They can ship it to you. Just e-mail them and say you live in Turkey, but Turkey isn't on the list of countries to choose from. That's what I did, and it worked. They will just create the "Turkey" option on the droplist.



Thank you, I mailed them and they added the shipping option.

----------


## cybereality

Wow, this is some thread. From what I read it seems like people are seeing some real results. I just got the Advanced Lucid Dreaming book but haven't started reading it yet. I figured I'd do some experimentation anyway. I picked up a bottle of 'Brilliant Dreams' pills from http://www.luciddreamingpill.com/ . Hopefully I didn't just get scammed. Will try them out as soon as they get here and post my results.

----------


## WanderingMind

My "Lucid Dreamins" arrived today. If I have the time, I'm going to use them for WBTB tonight.

----------


## WanderingMind

Hmmm... No luck tonight....I think I felt something (At one point it distinctly felt like something when straight to my brain), but no dreams.

I did take Melatonin (3mg for night two) before bed though. I slept very good in the first 4.5, and I woke up to take the galantamine+choline. I did try using apple juice to help though, and I think that might have a lot to do with it as said from the supplement aid this causes a high chance of waking up.
I felt pretty into the sleep I had for a few hours, but then I just got up, and here I am now.
To be fair though, I did do some things that are bad for dreaming before bed. I'll try in a few days.
I have a question though:
Since it stays in your system for three days: Have any of you been able to have consecutive days lucid and/or vivid dreams while in that period of letting it be released from your system.

----------


## Jules2007

WanderingMind-on your question about having lucid/vivid dreams on consecutive days when the galantamine is still in your system..I have tried this once or twice and didn't have another lucid dream. They weren't more vivid than usual either.

In the "Advanced Lucid Dreaming" book the author recommends Piracetam to be taken straight after a galantamine dream as this counteracts the desensitization and so you can take it more often than without the piracetam. I have't got any piracetam yet but am going to buy some and try it-I am beginning to get desensitized to the galantamine anyway as I'm lucky to get a lucid dream off galantamine now whereas when I first took it I had at least a 90% success rate.

----------


## dallyup52

Several years ago when I was doing the Galantamind, I did it almost every day for several months and was lucid several times each night (you should know that I get out a lot without the G).  I eventually developed a resistance to it and it stopped working.  A few years later I started up again and it was just as affective as the first time.  I don't think that the G really creates the ability to have lucid experiences but it sure sets up the mind chemistry for a fertile environment.

Sam

----------


## WanderingMind

> WanderingMind-on your question about having lucid/vivid dreams on consecutive days when the galantamine is still in your system..I have tried this once or twice and didn't have another lucid dream. They weren't more vivid than usual either.
> 
> In the "Advanced Lucid Dreaming" book the author recommends Piracetam to be taken straight after a galantamine dream as this counteracts the desensitization and so you can take it more often than without the piracetam. I have't got any piracetam yet but am going to buy some and try it-I am beginning to get desensitized to the galantamine anyway as I'm lucky to get a lucid dream off galantamine now whereas when I first took it I had at least a 90% success rate.



Thank you for the note.
I'm just going to wait it out. I have some other supplements. I'm just going to take 5-HTP, b complex, and maybe melatonin tonight. I have to be up early, and the galantamine choline combo I took last night made me a bit antsy last night. I actually woke up at 4 am, stayed on my computer for an hour, and then ran three miles. I'm a little drowsy, but that might work in my favor.

I haven't had many side effects I think beyond that, but I had a bit of a headache about an hour ago. I don't know if galantamine had anything to do with it though.

----------


## SleepyKitty

I tried Galantamine 3x so far with success each time.  These were all WBTB attempts after 4 - 5 hours into my sleep.  My attempt was with a 4mg Lucid Dreamer pill from dreamamins.  I had a small lucid that only lasted a second or two but I did a RC and knew I was dreaming.

The next attempt was 5 days after the first.   I used 8mg Galantamine + (400)mg Choline + 10.5 mg Nicotine Patch and had the most amazing lucid experience i've encountered yet.  I had a chain of 5 LD this night, each was about 2-5 minutes long.  Amazing control and very enjoyable.

Thrid attempt was about 5-6 days after the last.   I wanted to try the bare minimum and get a LD.  Took a (50)mg 5-HTP pill before bed  I tried 1 (4)mg  Galantamine + (200)mg Choline during the WBTB and had some very good results.  I had 2 LDs that night, they were decent but were nothing compared to the last combo.  

Just posting my experience since I gained this knowledge from this thread.  Thanks OP.

----------


## cybereality

Ok, my Brilliant Dreams pills came today, perfect timing for the weekend. Going to give them a shot tonight with a WBTB/WILD. Wish me luck.

----------


## cybereality

So I tried this out last night for the first time and it didn't go so well. Basically the pill kept me up all night. Anyway, here is what I did:

I went to sleep at 11PM and took 200mg of L-Theanine before bed. I got to sleep quickly a slept straight until 4:30AM when I had set my alarm. I got up, went to the bathroom, got something to drink, and then took 1 of the Brilliant Dreams pills which has 4mg of Galantamine, 100mg of Choline, 50mg of Vitamin B and 0.5mg of Melatonin. I also took another 200mg of L-Theanine to help me sleep. So I went back to bed with the intention of WILDing. At first I was still a bit tired so it seemed like I would get to sleep fast (I guess the pills hadn't kicked in yet). At one point I was even feeling these vibrations in my arms which seemed promising but they never lead anywhere. After that I was wide awake for pretty much the rest of the night. At some point I must have gone to sleep since I had a dream. But it wasn't especially vivid or lucid. Just a regular dream. Then at around 8AM I gave up and just wanted to get to sleep. I took 3mg of Melatonin. I was still awake for a bit but I did get to sleep at some point. Again I had a normal short dream. I finally got up at 12:30PM and I feel strange. I'm awake but something still seems cloudy in my head, I guess just because I got such bad sleep. I can't say I'm too excited to try this experiment again, but I will probably give it another shot next weekend. We'll see how that goes.

----------


## Zenman

This thread is GREAT.  Cyberreality, have you considered taking just 2mg?  I just ordered a bottle from Relentless Improvement which should arrive in a few days.  I'm going to start with just 2mg to hopefully avoid the possible insomnia side effect you and others talked about. I'm usually quite sensitive to substances.  For instance too much caffeine/chocolate can give me heart palpitations.  I've heard galantamine isn't recommended for people with heart rhythm disorders.  I don't think I have heart issues though, it's more of a central nervous system thing.  I'm still a little nervous about trying the galantamine though.  I think I should be able to be safe and relaxed taking only 2mg.  I've found that feeling safe, relaxed and totally accepting of whatever experience happens is absolutely crucial for successful WILDing.

----------


## WanderingMind

Well last night was my second try with it.

I went to bed at around 8:40. 
I listened to several isochronics:
Chakra Balancing
Deep Meditation
Sleep
Lucid Dreaming (Brown Noise)
I fell asleep somewher between Deep Meditation and Sleep (Which happens a lot lol).

I took B6 (100 Mg), 5-HTP (100 mg), and a 3 mg melatonin. I worked out, and drank some tea before hand. 

The sleep in first few hours went well. I naturally woke up waiting for 2 am to come around. I woke a bit before 1:50, took 3 mg of melatonin and one pill of Galantamine+Choline.

I listened to the "LucidRemix" and the sleep tone again. It took about an hour I would say, but I was back out again.

I had a glimpse of a lucid where I was in a somewhat dark store with shelves of chemicals. I think it was a pharmacy and I was thinking about if they had things that helped with lucidty. 

Anyway: I did look at my hands in my dream (I did it a few times before bed), but as soon as I did I faded out. 

But after that I had a very vivid dream pop up where a previous WBTB concept of it being bright outside sprouted up. Like the last time I did a WBTB in the middle of the week, I felt when I woke up that I was late for work, but just let it flow on. Things were very vivid based on site, but in the first lucid I did not hear much.

I did do several things. It was mainly me running errands. It became very much in my control when I found my girlfriend in a grocery store. After that we had a little fun.  :wink2:   :Cheeky: 

We went to some apartment building and got a bit romantic.
But I faded out again.

Shortly after I faded back into another lucid. I jumped over a bridge. I was in uniform (I'm in the military), and I approached some people. As I walked by my rank kept increasing at my will.
I walked by some sergeants, and I was a lieutanant. I walked by some lieutanants, and I was a captain. I then walked by a major, and I was colonel. I was unveiling some new medical building, which is actually my goal (Well Mental Health Nursing, but still).

I woke up after sleeping pretty hard, but I feel pretty good right now. Not even a headache today.

G+C gets a pretty big nod from me. But my calea will hopefully be in on Friday.

----------


## WanderingMind

Horrible night tonight. I can't get back to bed. I took Galantamine, lots of choline, L theanine, and melatonin. Better luck next time.

----------


## WanderingMind

Oh good lord jumping the gun is fail. lol

So I said that early this morning. I did everything I wasn't suppose to do to elicit dreams (Let alone LDs), but I did go back to bed.

I noticed when I got back in bed around 4:30am that the bed was comfy. I was joking saying mantras about a comeback train because my intial WBTB had failed. 

It took some time but things got more comfy. I turned on my right side, and things got a little deeper. I put my legs next to each other, and I started to go through SP. The first two times did not go well.

The first time I admit that I sort of resisted because it was weird. I heard sounds, felt my heart beat fast, and things started to lock up. The second time I did not, but I was still unsuccessful.

The third time though I went under. I distinctly felt like I Astral Projected too. I didn't go far, but it began with what looked like me looking at the carpet in my room. Then I flew up like I was doing the balloon technique, but with fairly poor control.

After that I stayed in the position and had *eight* DEILDs. It was insane. They were somewhat short, and I still lacked a lot complete control, but they happened. It was crazy. Just in and out for almost two hours. 

I took the following:
3 mg Melatonin
200 mg L-Theanine
100 mg 5-HTP

Then at the WBTB (A little under five hours in):

3 mg Melatonin
200 mg L-Theanine
3 mg Galantamine
400 mg Choline+ 500 mg Inositol (The choline is binded with it)

I am letting the Galantamine out of my system since I took it twice in a row. I might take it again on Saturday.

----------


## WanderingMind

The thing that annoys me is that of the times I had my previous four lucid dreams: I never went into SP. The REM sleep I get in it is so restorative (I was drowsy yesterday; I feel nearly perfect today), but I almost never have it. I wish I could find a way to go through SP more often.

----------


## Zenman

I'm happy to say that 2mg of Gm worked for me.

Here are some details:

Fell asleep at: 12:45am
Woke naturally for WBTB at 4:45am, then took 2mg Galantamine and 300mg Alpha GPC (Source Naturals) w/ half a pb&j sandwich.

Was really nervous after taking the pills and spent about 30 minutes getting relaxed. I know my fears of G are totally overblown and irrational especially at such a low dose so I did some positive thinking and finally got very relaxed. Came close to vibrations but then started resisting it. Finally gave up around 6am and tried to sleep but couldn't. Went back to trying to WILD around 6:30am. Around 7:15am I was suddenly having a normal dream where I heard music playing. I then had a FA and was laying there in the blackness trying to WILD. A puppy was next to me and I was like, oh, you'll make me feel safe. I held it in my arms, it felt so good and then I realized I was in a dream. The puppy disappeared and I allowed my dream body to float up and then land on the ground standing in my room. My vision came to me when I tried to look around. My movie screen (which is painted on my wall for my lcd projector) was reflective like a mirror in the dream world and I was able to see myself, that was a first for me! My desk was in the wrong place. I picked up some keys and threw them back down. Very vivid. I rubbed my hands and looked at them to stabilize. I was struck by the realistic SOUND and feel of my hands rubbing together. Wow. I then attempted to change the scene and drew an imaginary door on my wall. (I learned this trick from moonlit_jade) I pushed into it and it moved back and I walked into the cloudy nothingness and waited for the new scene to form. I had a dream body awareness but no sight. I then got scared that maybe the Gm would force me to be stuck in that state for hours, I tried to wake up. (Someone had mentioned on the forum that they almost felt trapped in the dream world after taking Gm the first time) I saw some colorful large posters and then woke up at 7:20am. I recorded the dream and then slept very difficultly for the next three hours with no lucids.

Dreaming began approx 2.5 hours after taking the combo. Total dream/lucid period was less than 5 minutes.

Does anyone have advice on how to sleep better after taking the Gm? I don't like melatonin. Have you done any experiments with the benzodiazepines? I have some ativan/lorazepam which I might take before bed time next time. I take it for sleep occasionally when I have an early morning shift. I'm thinking it will help with my anxieties and also help with the insomnia.

Thanks,
ZM

----------


## Zenman

Btw, I just got this bottle but it expires in October of this year, 2010. That's probably why it was on sale: http://supplements.relentlessimprove...-8mg-p304.aspx  With me only taking small doses of 2mg/4mg  a couple times a week, I'll never finish all of it.  (60 8mg pills!)  If anyone here on dreamviews lives in San Francisco and wants to try some, you're welcome to some of it.  We could meet for coffee/tea and I could pass off the goods to you.  I could also share a few of my choline or alpha gpc capsules.  

ZM

----------


## WanderingMind

> Btw, I just got this bottle but it expires in October of this year, 2010. That's probably why it was on sale: http://supplements.relentlessimprove...-8mg-p304.aspx  With me only taking small doses of 2mg/4mg  a couple times a week, I'll never finish all of it.  (60 8mg pills!)  If anyone here on dreamviews lives in San Francisco and wants to try some, you're welcome to some of it.  We could meet for coffee/tea and I could pass off the goods to you.  I could also share a few of my choline or alpha gpc capsules.  
> 
> ZM



I'm not from there, but I appreciate how you are helping others out. I'm glad you are experiencing great things with it!

----------


## Zenman

Right on WanderingMind!  I actually just learned that this bottle should last a year if I keep it refrigerated.  My offer still stands though for any locals here.  I'm sure I can spare 5 or 10 pills for a fellow lucid dreamer.

----------


## Germzx

Man, I got my G+C pills last week, and have used it twice since.  I prefer to keep my dreams only semi-lucid so it stays more like a movie though.  All I can say is anyone wondering about this stuff get it, it really does increase vividness, way more than any combo of melatonin, b-12, b-6, DHEA, omegas and ginkgo biloba I have ever had.  Great stuff.

----------


## SleepyKitty

Update on my success.

I have had LDs every single attempt on Galantamine when used properly with a WBTB.  This is now my 7th successful attempt.  

Combos...

__________________________________________________  _

Before Sleep: 50mg - 5-HTP

WBTB: 8mg Galantamine + 400mg of Choline + 100mg of L-Theanine (<--for sleep aid)

After LD Attempt: 2400mg Piracetam

Results: 7/7 100% success rate.  Very much in control and lots of clarity.  My LDs last 2-10 minutes with this combo, for now.

__________________________________________________  _


Before Sleep: 50-100mg - 5-HTP

WBTB: 8mg Galantamine + 100mg L-Thenine + 10.5 mg Nicotine patch (removed after LD)

After LD Attempt: 2400mg Piracetam

Results: *1/1* 100% success rate. Felt more in my LD then any other combination.  Also lasted three times as long as all of my other supplement induced lucid dreams.

__________________________________________________  _

Before Sleep:  100mg 5-HTP

WBTB:  None

After LD Attempt:  None

Results: *1/4* 25% success rate. nights with doses ranging 50-100mg (1 or 2 pills) Had amazing LD after failed WBTB attempt.

----------


## acidlife

> I'm happy to say that 2mg of Gm worked for me.
> Does anyone have advice on how to sleep better after taking the Gm? I don't like melatonin. Have you done any experiments with the benzodiazepines? I have some ativan/lorazepam which I might take before bed time next time. I take it for sleep occasionally when I have an early morning shift. I'm thinking it will help with my anxieties and also help with the insomnia.



Most people use l-theanine with their Galantamine for falling asleep again.

----------


## Specialis Sapientia

SleepyKitty, how many hours do you sleep before WBTB?

----------


## SleepyKitty

> SleepyKitty, how many hours do you sleep before WBTB?



It always varies between 4-5 hours, never more or less.  I follow the advice from Advanced Lucid Dreaming, The Power of Suppliments by Thomas Yuschak.  First book i've bought in 5 years.

Also, i've only done the WBTB technique for about 3 months now, maybe once or twice a week.  IMO all it takes is will power, every night I don't WBTB I don't really have a LD.  When I try, I have a LD.

First time trying Galantamine I had a lucid, second time I upped the dose to his recommendation and I had another amazing lucid.  The book is worth it's weight in gold.

----------


## Zenman

I agree with SleepyKitty, it's a phenomenal book. Towards the end he gives some great lucid dreaming tips.  It's not all about science and supplements.  He described my WILDs perfectly too, especially the part about how the limbs can seem to float up towards the ceiling right after the transition.

----------


## SleepyKitty

Wow!  I just had a LD that topped anything I had in the past!  I had sooooo many LDs last night I can't remember most of them!  Only certain goals I achieved!  It was ridiculous!  I was lucid for at least *30* minutes to an hour.  Just a short list of what happend!

What I used first...

Before Bed:  50mg - 5-HTP,  1.5 mg Melatonin

WBTB: 8mg Galantamine + 400 mg Choline + 200mg L-thenine (was up for 45 - 60 minutes)

After Bed: 2400mg Piracetam

Result: Outstanding, see below, 30-1hr Lucid Dream, insane.

- Finally became my dream Animal, was running through the woods, crouched down  and was a wolf!  Running on all fours was insane!!!!

-Shot a Kamaihamaiha at a DC and killed him!  The Kamaihamaiha was only the size of a marble but it worked  :smiley:   Had to put myself into the kamaihamaiha or it would not appear!

- Saw myself in 3rd person when going around a turn which FREAKED me out for a second.

- Stood on my head from last months goals I think?

- Shoot a fireball!  Fireball looked like that blazing eye in the hobbit movie <--- tired right now

- Smoked a joint! Best feeling ever!  The joint didn't even keep burning down to nothing, i kept getting hits off it and it wouldn't burn!  LOL!  Got high in me dreams!

So much more but I just could not remember it for the life of me.


Side notes

- I have been doing hand reality checks very often, at least every 15-30 minutes the last 2 days.  I contribute my amazing LD to the combination of my will power for a LD and Galantamine combo.  

- 2 out of 3 reality checks stopped working in my dreams about half way through this Lucid Journey.  I always seemed to have 5 fingers and Could Not push my finger through my hand.  The only thing that work 100% of the time was my nose RC, I could ALWAYS feel my body breathing when I plugged my nose, which was cool.

-I spread my LDS attempts every 2-5 nights, I do NOT overdo it as these pills combined with will power are AMAZING.

Good luck LDers!

----------


## SleepyKitty

Another update.

Tried again with success.

*11/11* I have a 100% chance to LD with my combo (when done properly) thus far


Before Bed:  100mg 5-htp

WBTB: 8mg Galantamine + 400 mg Choline + 300mg Alpha GPC  +  200mg L-thenine 

After Bed: 2400mg Piracetam

Result:  Longest lucid to date.  Not as in control as others but this might be due to poor memory caused by lots and lots of cannabis smoking.  2-3 LDs that I remembered, one lasted 15-25 minutes long.  Music in this one, probably due to Alpha GPC...

Will report back tomorrow, trying Huperzine-A combo.

----------


## tommo

This annoys me so much you have no idea.  America has every fucking supplement known to man.  We can't even get THEANINE here in aus.
Tryptophan - Still banned since that stupid chinese company genetically modified that batch and all those people got sick.  Even though it's proven tryptophan does not do that naturally.
Galantamine - Prescription only.
Melatonin - Prescription only or the useless homeopathy one which is just water.
5-HTP - Non-existent here.
Choline - No supplements either, just gotta get it from food which really isn't that hard.
Piracetam - Prescription only.  FML.

----------


## SleepyKitty

> This annoys me so much you have no idea.  America has every fucking supplement known to man.  We can't even get THEANINE here in aus.
> Tryptophan - Still banned since that stupid chinese company genetically modified that batch and all those people got sick.  Even though it's proven tryptophan does not do that naturally.
> Galantamine - Prescription only.
> Melatonin - Prescription only or the useless homeopathy one which is just water.
> 5-HTP - Non-existent here.
> Choline - No supplements either, just gotta get it from food which really isn't that hard.
> Piracetam - Prescription only.  FML.




Damn I feel for you Tommo.  When I learned about the amazing combination of "Brain food" I just had to try them.


Success on my HUPERZINE-A combo.



Before Bed:   50mg 5-htp   +  .75mg Melatonin


WBTB:   200 Mcg Huperzine-A   +   300mg Alpha GPC   +  200mg L-Theanine 


Aftrer Bed:   2400mg Piracetam


Results:  Decent,  I had one small lucid dream that lasted about 1 minute.  It quickly faded away after trying to stabilize it.  Had 5-10 crazy vivid dreams that I "felt" I was there.

Overall I enjoyed this combination, I fell back into the same dream about 5-8 times, which was really cool.

----------


## Skydreamer707

Where would you buy these supplements...? i live in the U.S. but ive never heard of them before...a health food store?
Is there any drugs/foods that naturally contain them? :/

----------


## tommo

Health food stores usually contain these things.  Woolworths does also.

You can get Theanine from green tea - There is also a product called Suntheanine which is theanine extracted from Green tea.

Tryptophan is in Cheese, Milk, Seeds and nuts (sesame seeds are good) and many other things.  Whey Protein Isolate powder is a great source of it also.  Don't get the concentrate, it must be the isolate.

And choline is in almost anything with b vitamins; egg, meat, fish, peanuts soy, yeast extract etc.

Galantamine is from these plants - Caucasian snowdrop (Voronov’s snowdrop), Galanthus woronowii (Amaryllidaceae) and related genera like Narcissus (daffodil), Leucojum (snowflake) and Lycoris including Lycoris radiata (Red Spider Lily)

----------


## SleepyKitty

> Where would you buy these supplements...? i live in the U.S. but ive never heard of them before...a health food store?
> Is there any drugs/foods that naturally contain them? :/



I order my Galantamine+choline combo from dreamamins.com and the rest of them can be found on many other sites, vitacost.com seeemed to be the cheapest but watch out for the "free shipping" pop-up at the end.

Also, it would be ideal to research these pills before trying them.  You should know what they do to your body and the side effects.  This is very important.  You don't want to jump in with all of these combos.  You should take each one individually to make sure you have no allergic reactions.

----------


## SleepyKitty

Another try.  This time was a failure!  But as i've stated before, this technique always, always works when I do it properly.  I'll explain.

I took my same combo as before, 600mg of Alpha GPC this time.  I WBTB, took my pills and fell asleep *10* minutes later.  I believe it was this that caused me to only dream.  I did not become lucid this time.

About 7 days later I tried again, same suppliments.  WBTB, took pills, stayed up for 45 minutes.  Fell asleep and straight into a DILD.  Woke up with a song in my head.

I'm not going to bother to post what I took becuase it's the same Galantamine+choline+alpha gpc combo i've been using.

BTW, telekinesis is awesome.

----------


## Verre

I took a few days to read through this entire thread, and have decided to join the forum and contribute. It's been very informative! 

After a spontaneous WILD several months ago, my interest in lucid dreaming was piqued again (I've had spontaneous ones throughout my life but for some reason never took the time to practice it seriously.) This time I've been doing a lot more research. After several successes with natural methods, such as reality checks, and absolutely no success so far with "dream herbs" such as Calea zacatechichi and Silene capensis (they just gave me insomnia) I recently discovered Yuschak's book, _Advanced Lucid Dreaming_. I recently started experimenting with the "Galantamind" brand supplements and... WOW! I was completely blown away by the length and intensity of the experiences. So far my success rate with Galantamind has been 3/3, but with qualifications, which I'll get to below. 

My method was to sleep about 3 hours first (I had my alarm set for 4 hours but kept waking up earlier naturally, and decided to take them then) and then took 2 of the 4mg capsules. I didn't try to stay awake for a proper WBTB, but immediately lay on my back and practiced the counting technique to try to induce a WILD. The sensations produced by the galantamine/choline combination comes on rapidly and is intense... vibrations throughout the body and gurglings in the stomach, but I was prepared for this. However, all three times I had a great deal of trouble getting back to sleep, feeling alert and hyper-sensitive to sounds in the house and outside. I failed to WILD, but after giving up and deciding to just try to go back to sleep (after about three hours of lying awake) during the first two experiments, when I finally DID sleep, I was launched into serial LD's that seemed to last hours. I felt a very high level of control and awareness, but the content and clarity of the dreams could have used some improvement. I suspect in part my recall was diminished by the sheer length of the dreams! On the third experiment, I found it nearly impossible to go back to sleep. In some six hours of trying, I only slept very briefly -- even then, I did become lucid (a DILD), but the dream only lasted a few seconds until I woke up again. I was waiting 48 hours between experiments, although I'm still waiting for piracetam I ordered to arrive so I did not have a chance to counteract the residual galantamine in my system. 

So far I'm extremely impressed by the effects of the galantamine + choline combination, but I'm going to have to find a way to counteract the sleeplessness it gives me. I've tried taking 5-HTP before bed and a tiny amount of melatonin (.3mg) with the galantamine, as well as 5-HTP and melatonin on their own on different days (aiming for the REM rebound effect) but for some reason these both also tend to keep me awake. I tried the nicotine patch on its own (7mg) and it kept me awake. Caffeine keeps me awake, even in trace amounts ingested many hours earlier in the day. In short, I'm a light sleeper (under normal circumstances I wake up several times a night) and very prone to sleeplessness on ANY kind of supplement. Nothing I've tried but the galantamine + choline has actually improved my dreaming, so I'm going to keep experimenting with the Galantamind at suitable intervals. I'll try adding L-theanine as soon as I can get some and see if that helps counteract the sleeplessness. 

One of the most interesting side-effects of the Galantamind, and something that I did not experience during my natural LDs, was serial false awakenings before I actually succeeded in waking up. Normally during an LD I can decide to wake up and do so with no difficulty. During the first Galantamind attempt I wasn't particularly trying to wake up, but still went through several FA's before I actually did so. During the second one I thought I heard suspicious sounds in the house and outside (one feature I experienced with the Galantamind-induced LDs was a high level of conscious awareness of my actual sleeping body and its environment, even while I was dreaming) and decided to wake up and check it out, because I wasn't sure if I dreamed the sounds or actually heard them. I willed myself to wake up, and then must have gone through at least 8 false awakenings in a row! At first they fooled me, but then it got to the point where I could recognize them right away. By the end I was getting so frustrated that I actually fell out of my bed onto the floor and was thrashing around in the blankets -- but of course this too was a dream. When I finally *really* woke up, I realized right away that it was a true awakening. Although a peculiar side-effect, the FAs don't bother me because I think they are a useful way to develop the critical faculty to distinguish between dreaming and being awake, even when the former is very convincing.

----------


## Zenman

Wow Verre, that sounds incredible.  Thanks for the write up.  I'm pretty sure that many FA's would scare the crap out of me but I'm glad you were able to see it more constructively.

----------


## lunar_feline_wanderer

> This annoys me so much you have no idea.  America has every fucking supplement known to man.  We can't even get THEANINE here in aus.
> Tryptophan - Still banned since that stupid chinese company genetically modified that batch and all those people got sick.  Even though it's proven tryptophan does not do that naturally.
> Galantamine - Prescription only.
> Melatonin - Prescription only or the useless homeopathy one which is just water.
> 5-HTP - Non-existent here.
> Choline - No supplements either, just gotta get it from food which really isn't that hard.
> Piracetam - Prescription only.  FML.



Hi Tommo.

I live in Brisbane, QLD and I'd just like to share with you some helpful info about the supps you've listed above.
You can get (as I have before) your Galantamine from Dreamamins.com, L-Theanine from eBay in Aus. (easily), 5-HTP from eBay in Aus. (easily as well), Choline bitartate/Alpha GPC from iherb.com (overseas I know, but still pretty easy to obtain) and they do sell Piracetam on eBay to Aussie residents from my past experience - only 1 bottle at a time though. One seller there lists the countries which are excluded.

I know I haven't posted here in a looooong time but I just came across your post and thought I'd share that with you. 
:-)
Justin.

----------


## SleepyKitty

Took a little break on LDing because of some addictive game...

Anyways, tried the combo again last night.

Had the longest journey i've experienced to date.  This included ALPHA-GPC.

I was in one of my LD kickin back and remember asking myself how long I was LDing (chain ld) I told myself about 45 minutes.  After waking up 3 hours had gone by.  Not bad.

Keep trying, this combo works 99% of the time when done correctly.  On my 1-2 week long slump I even had a Natural LD.  I havn't felt that good in a while, to have a natural LD is rare w/o a WBTB for me.

Keep trying!

----------


## SleepyKitty

Another try with Galantamine.

Nothing has changed, every single time I have used 8mg Galantamine + choline + alpha GPC I keep telling myself this is the best LD i've ever had.

Maybe it's due to my "experience", the little I have but I have been able to control my dreams much much more.

First time i've ever used the spin technique to find something.  I was in a dark house and wanted to find my flashlight that I always have.  I found it but it was about 3 feet long. 

Anyways, I still have 100% success rate so far when my WBTB is done correctly.

I update this to show people some suppliments that really do work, no other reason.  Please chime in if you've had some success with Galantamine.

----------


## Serenity

Nice to hear of your success, SleepyKitty!

I ordered some G/C from the dreamamins site (in Canada, it's really hard to get a hold of supps, too!) and tried for the first time last night. Crazy night, but it's a very, very difficult drug to sleep on! I ended up taking approximately 0.5mg of melatonin with it (twice - once around 4:30am and once again around 7:30am) because I couldn't fall back to sleep on my own.

We can't get L-Theanine here, either. However, there is a product at Walmart that has a combo of L-theanine, lemon balm, melissa-something-or-other... so I might try that in my next G/C run.

I decided to only go with the base 4mg/200mg dosage as well. Think I might up that to two capsules with the L-theanine combo thingy in a few days from now and see what happens  ::D:

----------


## SleepyKitty

I had the exact problem the first two times I tried G/C combo.

I could not fall asleep!  I then tried something that the OP was using, the L-theanine.

Worked like a charm for me.  I always include it now and fall back to sleep after a WBTB like I just got up.

My base was 4mg/200mg but that only gave me slight lucid dreams.  Thomas usually takes 8/400 as his baseline.  I stepped it up a notch the 3rd time I used Galantamine and have not turned back.  Every time I accomplish a WBTB properly I have a Lucid Dream with this amazing combo.  

Keep trying and find  something to help you fall back to sleep with the gal, that can be way too annoying!

----------


## Serenity

> Walmart that has a combo of L-theanine, lemon balm, melissa-something-or-other



Okay, this is actually a product that is very interesting. It has lemon balm (that was that "melissa-something-or-other" I was talking about), L-theanine, and some b6, b12 in it, too. Odd, but I'll give it a shot.

I think, what I might do next time (next week, Tuesday night, probably) is take the sleep aid at the start of my WBTB, do a 30 min meditation, take the G/C and then back to bed for me. That way, the L-theanine will be kicking in before the G/C even peaks, which should help.

----------


## tommo

I find that those combo pills from the supermarket tend to have very low doses of each ingredient.  Might wanna check how much is in each pill and google what the recommended dose is for falling asleep and/or relaxation.

----------


## Serenity

I did look at that... for the l-theanine, i know the general dosage many prefer is about 200mg. One capsule in this combo thingy has 66mg. However, it does say to take 3 capsules in the recommended dosage, so... it's  pretty close!

----------


## Acala

Here is the report after two attempts using 4 mg galantamine, 200 mg choline, and 300mg theanine.

I took it after 3 - 4 hours of sleep.  The first time after a natural awakening, the second on an alarm clock awakening.  Both times I went right back to bed.

The two experiments were one week apart.

The first night I had two LDs via WILD.  The first was the longest, most stable LD I have ever had.  Not that I have had that many - maybe 20 total.  The second was much shorter.

The second night - last night - I ALSO had two LDs.  Not as long and stable as on the first try, but very much up to par.  Both WILDs, but a bit more disjointed at the beginning, involving numerous FAs.  

I think dream recall was also better.

If this is placebo effect, bring it on!

----------


## SleepyKitty

Congrats! 

To date every single attempt that i've done with a proper WBTB has worked, over 20+ tries with Galantamine with a 100% success rate.

Keep it up, when I feel like a LD I have it now.  Amazing to have that ability when you feel like you're such a noob to LD. (Which I feel like I still am with only 30-40 LDs in the bank)

Good luck and remember to space your attempts out to at least 48 hours from the last dosage, 3 days would be best.

----------


## manage71

Hi All,
I am new here but I have been trying to ld for several months now. I have only had 2 very brief lucid dreams so far and they were very unstable so this prompted me to search more creative ways for accomplishing my goal--having ld on regular basis. Anyway, i read a book called "advanced lucid dreaming supplements" and learned about the galantamine + choline combination. I tried that last night and the results were not very satisfying. I guess I had an experience which was very strange and it felt like I was trying to escape out of my physical body.
 The problem came in the morning. I felt slightly depressed and brain scattered. The feeling was similar to when one has hangover... Has anybody had similar experience? Is it only me here? Do you have any side effects as well?
I only took 4mg of Galantamine and 200Choline

----------


## manage71

I wonder if the negative effect can be reduced by the taking of Piracetam after getting out of bed??

----------


## Acala

I took piracetam first thing in the morning and didn't notice any hangover effect.

----------


## zhineTech

first off, the best article i have read on galantamine yet. (yushak's site appears to have been down for a long while.) this article comes from dream researcher Ryan Hurd. if you are thinking about taking some G, then read this:
Review of Galantamine: the Lucid Dreaming Pill | The Dream Studies Portal 

im a convert. i have recently had a two month dry spell and decided to give the galantamine a try. it worked wonders!

i used dreamamins "lucid dreamer" supps, which are 4mg G + 200Mg Choline. i have also started adding an additional 250mg choline and just received some L-theanine to help me get back to sleep. i have had two LD's (dilds) out of four g+c attempts. i could not get back to sleep / my little girl kept waking me up during the two failed attempts. i have also halved the dosage the last two times, by separating the capsules and mixing in a drink before i go back to bed, thus approx 2mg G ~ 300Mg choline. This also worked for me, though it was not as intense.

the first LD i had w/ the g+c combo was the longest, most stable LD i have ever had, even though my level of actual lucidity was kind of low. i kept thinking i was having an OBE in the dream setting, like a dream within a dream. i knew i was dreaming, but expected to wake up in my dream bed. when i finally woke up in my RL bed, i was totally surprised by how removed i had actually been while still being lucid.

i have also had many "in-between" dreaming experiences, where at the time i feel like i am merely visualizing or daydreaming while trying to fall back asleep, but once i wake up i realize just how vivid the imagery was and i was in fact dreaming, while still "conscious." i also found that in almost every non-lucid dream in a G session, i will talk to dream characters about taking G, usually telling them that i "took some last night, and it was awesome" while trying to convince them to try it. if i were to lock onto this ridiculously obvious dreamsign, i would have had at least three more LD's out of my four sessions.

i have a _terribly_ hard time going back to sleep with the stuff though, and found that i can't stay up more than 15 mins and that i must take the G immediately before going back to bed. if i stay up longer or take the G right when i get up, sleep is well nigh impossible. i also tend to get pretty excited about the prospects of having an LD and trying out new tech, so that anticipation contributes to sleeplessness. hopefully modulating my emotions and the l-theanine will assist in this.

i feel _grrrreat!_ when i take the G, but it makes me want to get up and start cleaning out closets while doing jumping jacks and singing. i actually plan on taking it while playing a show because it really feels like it speeds my brain up and my memory is just more _there_. i have experienced some "hangover" type effects, but i attribute that to the fact that i only got four hours of sleep and had to cope with a crazy four year old all day.

i'm trying to use it as "just a little extra push" not a "lucid dreaming pill" per se, so i'm going to try to keep shrinking the dosages. my intent in my next lucid (G induced or not) is to request assistance from the dream in recognizing the dream state, and to make careful observations about how my body and gravity feel in an attempt to increase my LD frequency.

in summary, here is my successful G+C combo:
go to bed 
sleep four hours
pee, drink some water, write out dreams from first part of night
stay up only 15 or so mins
take G+C and immediately go back to bed, with my intention set
successful dosages have been 4mg G + 200mg choline and 2mg G + ~300mg choline

questions:
-i don't see how it is possible for anyone to WILD with this. if i even remotely try to stay awake, i can't go to sleep
-i have read some questions regarding cigarette smokers using this (maybe even in this 20+ page thread) one time i have and one time i have not. the danger is in taking enough time to go outside and wake up too much to fall back asleep.

----------


## zhineTech

> Hi All,
> I am new here but I have been trying to ld for several months now. I have only had 2 very brief lucid dreams so far and they were very unstable so this prompted me to search more creative ways for accomplishing my goal--having ld on regular basis. Anyway, i read a book called "advanced lucid dreaming supplements" and learned about the galantamine + choline combination. I tried that last night and the results were not very satisfying. I guess I had an experience which was very strange and it felt like I was trying to escape out of my physical body.
>  The problem came in the morning. I felt slightly depressed and brain scattered. The feeling was similar to when one has hangover... Has anybody had similar experience? Is it only me here? Do you have any side effects as well?
> I only took 4mg of Galantamine and 200Choline



did you do this at night or w/ WBTB? you should def sleep for about 4 hours before taking it. you should also combine it with other LD tech like mantras, MILD, visualization etc.

keep trying! one attempt does not a failure make!

----------


## Acala

> questions:
> -i don't see how it is possible for anyone to WILD with this. if i even remotely try to stay awake, i can't go to sleep
> .



WILDing for me is about walking the razor's edge between staying fully awake and totally surrendering to unconsciousness while transitioning into the dream state.  The technique that seems to be working for me is to count my breath while I relax my body and try to adopt a kind of "surrender" attitude to sleep.  

When I do a quick WBTB - just long enough to pee, down the pills, and get back to bed - I am getting close to transition into the dream state by the time the chemicals start to take effect.  Then the theanine takes the edge off and whoosh!  

But honestly I am too new at this to be any kind of authority.

----------


## NrElAx

How much is galantamine because everywhere I look its like 40 bucks or more. can  I get it at a grocery store or maybe health store?

----------


## Robot_Butler

Manage71, try starting with a lower dose of galantamine.  I get that feeling when I take too much.  You are probably using the standard 8mg caps.  Try halving them for a 4mg dose.  I dissolve it in some water, gulp it down during an early morning WBTB, and then wait for 30-60 minutes before returning to sleep/ WILD. 

NrElAx, you won't find it in any grocery stores.  Your best bet is to shell out the $40 to order it online.  Maybe you could convince a friend to split a bottle with you.  You can't take it too often, so it is hard to use the whole bottle, anyways.

----------


## Serenity

Typically, you shouldn't actually repeat ANY LDS within 4 days of each other (this practice generally negates tolerance to the supplement). Galantamine takes about 48 hours to clear out of your system.

Piracetam is supposed to help cleanse it out of your system faster. I've never tried it, myself.

----------


## manage71

> did you do this at night or w/ WBTB? you should def sleep for about 4 hours before taking it. you should also combine it with other LD tech like mantras, MILD, visualization etc.
> 
> keep trying! one attempt does not a failure make!




Hi zhineTech,

I did take the supplements only after I slept for 5hours or so. I woke up at around 5am and took 4mg of G and 200mg Choline. I guess I will cycle the intake of supplements and spread it out between 3-4 days before I try again. Next time, I will decrease the G and increase the Choline.
 I usually count myself to sleep when I go back to bed. I use a simple mantra-like phrase " 1 iam dreaming, 2 I am...etc." This helps somewhat..
I am not very visual and find to be more auditory so this is why I do not do visualizations of any type. Maybe I should try it next time
What do you find helpful? Do you have a practice that works best for you?

----------


## manage71

Hi Robot_Butler,

I did take only 4mg of G. I  am a light sleeper so waiting 30-60 min before going to bed might be too much for me. Plus the excitement provoked by the expectation to become lucid makes me more alert and it is harder for me to go to bed.
I might try a lower than 4mg dosage and see how it goes.
thanks





> Manage71, try starting with a lower dose of galantamine.  I get that feeling when I take too much.  You are probably using the standard 8mg caps.  Try halving them for a 4mg dose.  I dissolve it in some water, gulp it down during an early morning WBTB, and then wait for 30-60 minutes before returning to sleep/ WILD. 
> 
> NrElAx, you won't find it in any grocery stores.  Your best bet is to shell out the $40 to order it online.  Maybe you could convince a friend to split a bottle with you.  You can't take it too often, so it is hard to use the whole bottle, anyways.

----------


## NrElAx

well I just ordered some online, so I'll post my results when it comes. And its the combination one.

----------


## zhineTech

> Hi zhineTech,
> 
> I did take the supplements only after I slept for 5hours or so. I woke up at around 5am and took 4mg of G and 200mg Choline. I guess I will cycle the intake of supplements and spread it out between 3-4 days before I try again. Next time, I will decrease the G and increase the Choline.
>  I usually count myself to sleep when I go back to bed. I use a simple mantra-like phrase " 1 iam dreaming, 2 I am...etc." This helps somewhat..
> I am not very visual and find to be more auditory so this is why I do not do visualizations of any type. Maybe I should try it next time
> What do you find helpful? Do you have a practice that works best for you?



im still trying to work out the best way for myself as well. i have only tried the g 4 times, both my LDs were basically MILDs after WBTB. what i have basically worked out is that its reeealy hard to get back to sleep on the g for me.

----------


## Serenity

I tried 8mg G / 400mg C last night... I didn't find a ton of difference when I started out with half the dose (the first time I tried it). The biggest difference is, with the increase of the supplement, I woke up with a massive headache and slightly nauseous.

----------


## manage71

> I tried 8mg G / 400mg C last night... I didn't find a ton of difference when I started out with half the dose (the first time I tried it). The biggest difference is, with the increase of the supplement, I woke up with a massive headache and slightly nauseous.



Did you have any lucid dreams?

----------


## Verre

My biggest challenge with Galantamine was falling back to sleep... it is definitely a stimulant. Following advice that came up earlier in this thread, I added L-Theanine to the mix, and that has improved my results tremendously. I've begun to have very consistent success with a combination of 4 or 8mg Galantamine ("Galantamind" brand), 300mg Alpha-GPC, and 200mg L-Theanine. I sleep for at least 4 hours and do a WBTB in which I write down whatever dreams I remember on waking, shower, then take the supplements at the last possible moment before going back to sleep. I do the counting technique ("1, I'm dreaming, 2, I'm dreaming," etc.) and sometimes succeed with a WILD, but I will give up the counting if I feel too wakeful, then just fall asleep normally and DILD. Following these procedures, I haven't yet had a failure with this combo. I did have one unusual experience where I was having trouble sleeping, and then began to have what I can only describe as visions rather than full-blown LDs: I could see and hear the dream events, and even interact with them to a limited extent, but couldn't fully integrate my tactile senses. Usually on this combo I can LD for about two hours, and in the course of practice have improved my ability to "clean up" sense impressions (in another thread on this forum someone described a stabilizing technique -- in which you proceed to focus on each of your senses in turn -- that works really well) and to maintain the dream state through periods of instability. Since I started supplements about two months ago I've only had one natural lucid dream, so I'm not sure if I should be relieved that I can still have them naturally, or worried that I'm not having them more often. My schedule is insanely busy right now, though, and sleep is a scarce commodity, so I'm grateful that the supplement approach allows me to have LDs within a predictable time frame. 

Like a previous poster, I have likewise consistently suffered the "hangover effect" from Galantamine, on both the 4 and 8mg doses. Galantamine sleep actually feels worse than no sleep at all, even if I've gotten sufficient hours (4-6) beforehand. Piracetam really does help immensely to counter that "strung out" feeling on a Galantamine morning, so it's worth having some on hand if you're going to go this route. 

All told, my experiences with Galantamine + Choline + L-Theanine have proven to be extraordinary positive and surprisingly reliable, and I'm very much enjoying the experiments. My only regret is that I don't know anyone in RL who shares this (somewhat unusual?) hobby, and it's something I'm hesitant to bring up in conversation. I think it would be hard to explain to someone who doesn't already have an enthusiasm for it.

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## NrElAx

Anyone know where I could find piracetam. Do they sell it at any stores or is it only online. Just easier to buy from the store, but if I can't then I'll buy it online. I haven't even received my galantamine yet, so maybe I won't get the hangover effect.

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## manage71

> Anyone know where I could find piracetam. Do they sell it at any stores or is it only online. Just easier to buy from the store, but if I can't then I'll buy it online. I haven't even received my galantamine yet, so maybe I won't get the hangover effect.



Hi,

You can get P from Amazon check the link below. 
Amazon.com: PRIMAFORCE PIRACETAM 500 GRAMS: Health & Personal Care 

another good website for supplements is bulknutritions.com

if you can spend more money and want good quality supplements then check this out  Relentless Improvement High-Quality Nutritional Supplements Home

Thanks

----------


## Serenity

I get my galantamine/choline combo from Advanced Dream Nutrition: Dreamamins With Galantamine ...
Specifically, I get the "Lucid Dreamer" bottle  ::D:

----------


## NrElAx

I don't know if anyone has heard this, but piracetam is being banned in the US and is going to be perscription only. So if your going to buy some, then get it know.

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## manage71

> I don't know if anyone has heard this, but piracetam is being banned in the US and is going to be perscription only. So if your going to buy some, then get it know.



Ok, here it is my last night experience. I got up at 3am and took only 2mg of G and 300mg of Choline. After returning to bed I had a bit of a hard time falling back to sleep. Once I did, i had a non lucid dream which was a bit scary, sort of a nightmare. However, that very first dream triggered my understanding that I was dreaming and consequently it caused the lucidity in the following dreams I had that night. I had 4-5 dreams after that, each of them lucid. They were not very stable and would change fast where I would find myself in different settings, different background , surrounded by different people.
Conclusion: The nature of the lucid dreams caused by the dosage of the supplements last night was unstable and they would fade away or change fast but that might be due to the fact I am not experienced enough to prevent such thing of happening. So maybe I have to work on my concentration and reducing my emotional response.
 2nd- I found myself much more aggressive when lucid in my dreams, much more lively and less inhibited... All of that might be due to some compensatory elements which trigger that wild behavior of mine. Well not that I turn to some "wild animal"  but i noticed that my reasoning is overwritten by my emotional excitement where in waking state i am the opposite. Hm some food for thought...
Do you have similar type of experience when taking the supplements?
thanks

ps: i read about the P and it is true that the FDA is banning the selling , so once the resellers run out the producer won't be allow to make more, so I guess those who have a need , go and get some now.

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## Acala

> I don't know if anyone has heard this, but piracetam is being banned in the US and is going to be perscription only. So if your going to buy some, then get it know.



Bastards!  It is MY mind and MY body!  What I put in it is MY business.

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## NrElAx

> Bastards!  It is MY mind and MY body!  What I put in it is MY business.



Yea I know, I'm going to try and buy some before its all gone. My G&C came in today along with my L-theanine, so I'm going to try this tonight.

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## manage71

> Bastards!  It is MY mind and MY body!  What I put in it is MY business.



True , your body and your mind; however, you live surrounded by other people , not alone...Anyway, I think it was Aristotel that  said " become a Politician, otherwise you allow to your inferiors to rule over you" I think to follow his advise next time when I become lucid in my dream :smiley:

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## Acala

Took GCT again last night during a WBTB and had the same result.  Multiple LDs starting with a long WILD, very vivid and very lucid.  Followed by a kind of disjointed series of shorter LDs including a DEILD and a couple FAs.

Interestingly, I had the impression last night that my LDs were more vivid but that I seemed to have somewhat less control.  And that if I make a certain kind of effort at control I wake up.  I think that the LDs I am having now with GCT are long enough, consistent enough, and vivid enough that I may be able to start working on improving my control.  So far I have just been working on anchoring by exploring the sensory details of whatever room I am in.  And that is certainly interesting enough to keep me going for a long time.  But I do want to develop the full oneironaut skill set. 

I don't want to depend on any supplements for LDs.  Most of my LDs have been without, but at this rate that is going to change if I don't make an effort.  Tonight I will try to WILD without any supplements. I plan on using GCT only once a week.  The rest of the time I will go without any supps or perhaps try the glutamine/aspartic acid/theanine combo once a week also.

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## NrElAx

Well I tried it last night but no LD, but I will try again in a couple days. But holy crap, I took it around 6:30am and had a quick dream after then woke up and my body was just so dead and relaxed feeling. This stuff makes me not want to move haha. But I feel fine this morning. I think maybe that feeling will wear off as I sleep in the morning and when o wake up I'll feel a little tired. But I can't wait to try it again

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## Mascot

Just be careful, your taking a lot of stuff, anything can mess you up if you take enough of it.

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## NrElAx

Yea I know. I started off with the low dose just to be safe.

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## manage71

One thing that bothers me about those supplements is the disappearance of Thomas Y from the public stage. His web site has been down for a while and there is no way to get in touch with the guy. Why would you hide from others if you really believe in what you preach? This increases my skepticism and I am a bit doubtful about the "power" of the supplements which might turn to be my weakness eventually. I am thinking that using the mental techniques such as building an association between dream sign and recognizing the dreaming state might be the right approach. it might be slower in terms of achieving the desired goal but the change is permanent and you do not depend on supplements.
 As a rule of thumb, i am thinking of every time when i have taken a short cut in my life, next I know i have to go do it over again the right way...
My biggest concern is that there is no long term study on those supplements, and even though most information sources claim that G has been used for centuries in Chinese medicine , it does not say directly about its application and the way it was extracted from the red spider lily. Also, I have never read anything about Tibetan yoga practitioners taking any supplements. If I am wrong , please point me to the right source of info. 
 Sorry to sound discouraging to some of you but it seams to me that we live in a society where every one is striving to find the extra fast solution to a problem or pop up a pill to reach enlightenment, and we all know it is not that easy.
I am not criticizing anybody, this is just my opinion, if you disagree please ignore .
thanks

----------


## Serenity

I understand your concerns, manage71. The thing about lucid aids, is they aren't meant to be a magic pill that you pop, and suddenly you get lucid. All aids require a certain amount of effort on part of the dreamer, and these aids just increase the likelihood of obtaining lucidity. Like galantamine, for instance, tends to increase the vividness of dreaming, but it also tends to make WILDing much easier for some people (probably because G can produce insomnia).

So when you combine a G/C pill with a proven technique such as MILD or WILD, it further increases the likelihood of having a lucid dream.

However, it is always best to try to have some LD's on your own before you jump into the supplement game. The supps aren't really going to help you get lucid when you have no idea what being lucid is like.

----------


## Acala

I think Manage21's concerns are legit.  Being able to have lucid dreams without supplements is preferable.  But supplements might have a role in helping people get started, helping people break out of dry spells, helping people extend time in LD to work on particular issues or skills, etc.  Plus it is just damn cool that there is a mix of supplements that seems to really increase LD percentages.  But since I used GCT last night, I will try to WILD without aids tonight.

Do you think the novadreamer and other machines are also a problem?  One might become dependent on external cues.

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## manage71

Hi Acala,
I try to avoid reaching my conclusion based on fragmenting the world seeing what might be a problem or not. The opinion which I established earlier is based on some type of personal experience. I used to take different type of substances in my past and fought with addiction on a couple of occasions. So, it is more or less personal belief that plays a role in my opinion, not necessarily the truth but then i guess whatever one truth might be-- it is always some sort of belief that is deeply ingrained in it. 
 Your question is valid. I agree , one can become dependent on external cues, but let's look at the mechanism of conditioning that works in the background. The external cues are promoting a state of lucidity based on association between stimuli - response. It is similar to the Pavlov's dogs, they salivate when they hear the ring of the bell even though there is no food to trigger the response. There is a conditioning mechanism which gets ingrained into the matrix of the nervous system, however, in order to have this association established one will have to take time in training. For instance, we are all familiar with the stories such as- external cues get translated and incorporated in the dream on a way they become part of the very fabric of the dream itself and the dreamer does not get lucid simply because he/she does not recognize the cues. I dare to take that even further and claim that once the external cues are recognized and trigger the desired response, the trained person would experience similar cues even without wearing the electronic device that aids him to reach a state of lucidity on the first place.There is a sense of readiness, one works to get his nervous system prepared to bare the load of change of the chemicals which change on its turn was reached only because the nervous system was trained. It is sort of a paradox...
The supplements have direct effect and change the homeostasis of the brain and the central nervous system where preparation does not exist or it is limited. It is a game of hit and miss, in a sense " my nervous system will figure it out, i hope..."

----------


## Acala

> Hi Acala,
> I try to avoid reaching my conclusion based on fragmenting the world seeing what might be a problem or not. The opinion which I established earlier is based on some type of personal experience. I used to take different type of substances in my past and fought with addiction on a couple of occasions. So, it is more or less personal belief that plays a role in my opinion, not necessarily the truth but then i guess whatever one truth might be-- it is always some sort of belief that is deeply ingrained in it. 
>  Your question is valid. I agree , one can become dependent on external cues, but let's look at the mechanism of conditioning that works in the background. The external cues are promoting a state of lucidity based on association between stimuli - response. It is similar to the Pavlov's dogs, they salivate when they hear the ring of the bell even though there is no food to trigger the response. There is a conditioning mechanism which gets ingrained into the matrix of the nervous system, however, in order to have this association established one will have to take time in training. For instance, we are all familiar with the stories such as- external cues get translated and incorporated in the dream on a way they become part of the very fabric of the dream itself and the dreamer does not get lucid simply because he/she does not recognize the cues. I dare to take that even further and claim that once the external cues are recognized and trigger the desired response, the trained person would experience similar cues even without wearing the electronic device that aids him to reach a state of lucidity on the first place.There is a sense of readiness, one works to get his nervous system prepared to bare the load of change of the chemicals which change on its turn was reached only because the nervous system was trained. It is sort of a paradox...
> The supplements have direct effect and change the homeostasis of the brain and the central nervous system where preparation does not exist or it is limited. It is a game of hit and miss, in a sense " my nervous system will figure it out, i hope..."



I don't really see how training to go lucid with flashing lights in your eyes transfers to any other stimulus unless the state of lucidity itself creates, over time, a generalized tendency to become lucid.  And if that is the case with the novadreamer and similar devices, then it should be the case for lucidity stimulated by supplements as well.  In fact, the lucidity stimulated by GCT seems often to be in the form of WILDs so one might postulate that you actually develop the skill of making the WILD transition each time you do it successfully whether or not you are aided by supplements.  But I am speculating.     

I'm not putting down the

----------


## zhineTech

used the 4mg G + 450mg Choline + 200mg L-theanine combo this weekend. i also threw in a couple of fishoils and 250mg of B6, to stir things up.

results: 4 long vivid LDs and an LD during my afternoon nap!

it felt like i never even went to sleep: "dangit, i cant get to sleep. im going to get up and get a drink. wait a minute! i have dwarf hands!" X 4

crazy! i will weigh in on the supplement question when i have time. i can summarize it with this: "sometimes i like to be a spiritual seeker, sometimes a rationalist. but sometimes i just want to be a mad scientist!"

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## Acala

> wait a minute! i have dwarf hands!"



Ahahahahahahaha!  One of the side effects of galantamine.

----------


## Serenity

> used the 4mg G + 450mg Choline + 200mg L-theanine combo this weekend. i also threw in a couple of fishoils and 250mg of B6, to stir things up.
> 
> results: 4 long vivid LDs and an LD during my afternoon nap!
> 
> it felt like i never even went to sleep: "dangit, i cant get to sleep. im going to get up and get a drink. wait a minute! i have dwarf hands!" X 4
> 
> crazy! i will weigh in on the supplement question when i have time. i can summarize it with this: "sometimes i like to be a spiritual seeker, sometimes a rationalist. but sometimes i just want to be a mad scientist!"



Hah! Yeah, my G/C nights are often the same way. I never realize I've fallen asleep (dwarf hands are another story though  ::D: )

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## zhineTech

heh. my fingers ended at the first knuckle. it was a trip.

----------


## NrElAx

Alright I have a question. I tried this for the second time last night. The first time I took it I used 4mg of G and 200mg of C and 200mg l-theanine. I took it at 6:30 and kind of dozed off but woke up and my body was so tired and heavy feeling, but that was it. But this morning I did the same thing as I did last time. Took the same amount, but I couldn't fall back to sleep. After about 45 minutes laying there I finally dozed off, but once again I woke up and felt really heavy again, but, as I layed there my whole body felt like it was being pulled forward then sideways and then forwards again. It only last about 15 seconds and then it stopped and I did a rc but nothing. The pulling feeling was soo intense though, it felt like something was sucking me out of my body, it was amazing eperience thoug. Was that sleep paralysis, because I've only had sp once before. But during it I kept feeling like my body was about to role off my bed and I really didn't want to actually fall so I started to worry.

----------


## Acala

> Alright I have a question. I tried this for the second time last night. The first time I took it I used 4mg of G and 200mg of C and 200mg l-theanine. I took it at 6:30 and kind of dozed off but woke up and my body was so tired and heavy feeling, but that was it. But this morning I did the same thing as I did last time. Took the same amount, but I couldn't fall back to sleep. After about 45 minutes laying there I finally dozed off, but once again I woke up and felt really heavy again, but, as I layed there my whole body felt like it was being pulled forward then sideways and then forwards again. It only last about 15 seconds and then it stopped and I did a rc but nothing. The pulling feeling was soo intense though, it felt like something was sucking me out of my body, it was amazing eperience thoug. Was that sleep paralysis, because I've only had sp once before. But during it I kept feeling like my body was about to role off my bed and I really didn't want to actually fall so I started to worry.



Sounds like SP to me.  Just ride it through to the other side.  Then roll out of bed into your dream world.

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## NrElAx

> Sounds like SP to me.  Just ride it through to the other side.  Then roll out of bed into your dream world.



Yea I think I started thinking too much to myself so I lost it. I was just suprised.I got it. All the times I've been trying to get it and nothing happens,and the time I don't try, I get sp. But that's how I got it the first time too, I gave up and got it. 

OH, another question. Can I try this two nights in a row and then take a long break from it. I took a three day break the last time I took it but I read about people saying they would take it two nights in a row and then a good break from it.

----------


## NrElAx

Wow, so I decided to take it one more night. So two nights in a row or actually mornings. Well this morning I took 8mg of G and 400 of C and 200mg of theanine. Well first I was having trouble going to sleep but then the heavy body feeling hit me again and I kept going in and out of sleep paralysis because I kep getting excited during it. But eventually I guess I fell asleep and dreamt about me going to school. I didn't consider it a false awakening because I was doing stuff I wouldn't do. In the dream I went to my garage and started trying to put this tire on a bike because a bolt had fallen off. My vision was all shitty and I was tired as hell and was thinking there is no was I'm going to school. I get the tire on and I go inside and my parents are on the couch and I tell them I can't go to school because I took the galantamine and choline and its making me too tired. I literally was so tired I could barely walk or open my eyes at this point. Then I looked up into my kitchen and there was a young woman standing there about my age and I'm like great I'm so tired and she's here. But no one knows her abd I wake up. But when I open my eyes there's two cartoon characterd running straight at me. One was wearing a red dress and I was eyy! eyy! ey! and then I opened my eyes again and I did a rc and I was awake. God, those characters running at me was scary haha. But what sucked was that was only like 40 mintues long and I had thought I was asleep for like 3 hours. But I'm going to take a break from G&C and hopefully next time I will recognize what's a dream haha. But the dream of me in my garage was sooo real. My neighbors were outside and my garage looked the same. But I don't need my parents permission to go to school, I'm in college haha  :smiley: 

Ok I have to edit. I went back to sleep afte writing this. I feel asleep and had a quick dream I walked into my parents room and my dad was listening to the binarual beats I was listening to was I was just asleep. Then I woke up and I looked at the time and it said 9:21 and I went to get out of bed but it was kinda dark but I started floating up and I was like holy crap. Then I woke up and it was 9:25. Holy crap. What a morning. Galantamine is crazy. Am I Awake Right NOW or still dreaming ahhh. Hahah

----------


## Acala

> Yea I think I started thinking too much to myself so I lost it. I was just suprised.I got it. All the times I've been trying to get it and nothing happens,and the time I don't try, I get sp. But that's how I got it the first time too, I gave up and got it. 
> 
> OH, another question. Can I try this two nights in a row and then take a long break from it. I took a three day break the last time I took it but I read about people saying they would take it two nights in a row and then a good break from it.



The transition through SP can be really wild.  I thought it was so cool when I did it the first few times.  And then recently there has been nothing to it.  Strange.  

I don't have any real data on the effects of GCT after repeated use.  Sure would be nice to see some data.

----------


## NrElAx

> The transition through SP can be really wild.  I thought it was so cool when I did it the first few times.  And then recently there has been nothing to it.  Strange.  
> 
> I don't have any real data on the effects of GCT after repeated use.  Sure would be nice to see some data.



I'd imagine one would build a tolerance to it. That's why I'm going to take a few days off of it. Oh by the way, that was my first lucid at the end of false awakening where I started floating. It only lasted like three seconds because right when I started floating I realized it was a FA. Duuhh haha. But I mean I thought I was actually getting out of bed, so I was pretty conscious already. This stuff is giving me some rsults haha.

----------


## Robot_Butler

> My biggest challenge with Galantamine was falling back to sleep... it is definitely a stimulant.




This is the reason I dissolve it in water, slug it, then wait an hour before going back to sleep.  It seems to make me jittery and excitable when I first take it, but the feeling passes after 30 or 45 minutes.  I can either lie in bed for an hour waiting to calm down and fall asleep, or I can stay up and have a longer WBTB.

----------


## NrElAx

I was wondering. Why is it that this stuff helps you so much with WILDs. I have such a hard time getting into SP, but the last two times I've used this stuff, its basically put me into sleep paralysis.

----------


## manage71

wow, that is an interesting dream with a lot of symbolism that reveals interesting meaning about the nature of your personal life...




> Wow, so I decided to take it one more night. So two nights in a row or actually mornings. Well this morning I took 8mg of G and 400 of C and 200mg of theanine. Well first I was having trouble going to sleep but then the heavy body feeling hit me again and I kept going in and out of sleep paralysis because I kep getting excited during it. But eventually I guess I fell asleep and dreamt about me going to school. I didn't consider it a false awakening because I was doing stuff I wouldn't do. In the dream I went to my garage and started trying to put this tire on a bike because a bolt had fallen off. My vision was all shitty and I was tired as hell and was thinking there is no was I'm going to school. I get the tire on and I go inside and my parents are on the couch and I tell them I can't go to school because I took the galantamine and choline and its making me too tired. I literally was so tired I could barely walk or open my eyes at this point. Then I looked up into my kitchen and there was a young woman standing there about my age and I'm like great I'm so tired and she's here. But no one knows her abd I wake up. But when I open my eyes there's two cartoon characterd running straight at me. One was wearing a red dress and I was eyy! eyy! ey! and then I opened my eyes again and I did a rc and I was awake. God, those characters running at me was scary haha. But what sucked was that was only like 40 mintues long and I had thought I was asleep for like 3 hours. But I'm going to take a break from G&C and hopefully next time I will recognize what's a dream haha. But the dream of me in my garage was sooo real. My neighbors were outside and my garage looked the same. But I don't need my parents permission to go to school, I'm in college haha 
> 
> Ok I have to edit. I went back to sleep afte writing this. I feel asleep and had a quick dream I walked into my parents room and my dad was listening to the binarual beats I was listening to was I was just asleep. Then I woke up and I looked at the time and it said 9:21 and I went to get out of bed but it was kinda dark but I started floating up and I was like holy crap. Then I woke up and it was 9:25. Holy crap. What a morning. Galantamine is crazy. Am I Awake Right NOW or still dreaming ahhh. Hahah

----------


## NrElAx

> wow, that is an interesting dream with a lot of symbolism that reveals interesting meaning about the nature of your personal life...



What do you think it symbolizes. Well another crazy morning with this stuff. I got into sleep paralysis three times this morning. That more than I have in the past three months. Haha. But once again I went from a sequence of dreaming about being on galantamine and not noticing it, to multiple false awakenings. One of which I realized I was dreaming because I had a similar FA earier in the morning. Unfortunatlly right when I realized I was dreaming I woke up. But this stuff makes getting into SP a joke. I don't want to use this for lucid dreaming forever, but it is helping to progress. I wasn't getting anywhere before and it was so frustrating. Even though I'm not having full lucids, at least I'm getting sp and FAs. I never got that before. Now I just have start focusing on y awareness and remeber to do reality checks everytime I wake up, because those FAs really trick me haha.

----------


## manage71

Do you ever give yourself a break form those supplements. Remember the G takes up to 48hours to rid from your body so you have to make sure you cycle the intake of supplements and leave at least a couple of days in between. I am not trying to patronize you, but there are no long term studies that reveal of possible effects when one takes G on a regular basis for a long term. There might be some consequences which you rather avoid. 
 As far as the symbolism , I think it is interesting that you go to fix your bicycle in the garage . The garage is the storage room of the house where we keep some stuff that are of either mechanical use such as a vehicle a car or a bicycle like in your case. A vehicle is what takes you places, the bicycle has two tires like the brain has two hemispheres , one of the tires is flat, not working, possible assumption, one of the hemispheres is not working( here this is not in a literate sense, it is figurative), the tiredness might be due to not being able to recognize the state of the sleep, you have been trying but now the tire is flat and you give up, your mom and dad show up as figures of authority, you still have some dependency on them even though now you do not need their permission since you are in college, your bike takes you to school, school is where you learn, but one of the tires is not working so you can not do that now... the girl, maybe an image of a guardian of some sort, she is in the kitchen , waiting for you some sort of incongruence between the notion of taking the supplements and the girl, ..... all those interpretations are speculations, no interpretation of any dream can account for anything, so please be advise, this is not the only possible interpretation.




> What do you think it symbolizes. Well another crazy morning with this stuff. I got into sleep paralysis three times this morning. That more than I have in the past three months. Haha. But once again I went from a sequence of dreaming about being on galantamine and not noticing it, to multiple false awakenings. One of which I realized I was dreaming because I had a similar FA earier in the morning. Unfortunatlly right when I realized I was dreaming I woke up. But this stuff makes getting into SP a joke. I don't want to use this for lucid dreaming forever, but it is helping to progress. I wasn't getting anywhere before and it was so frustrating. Even though I'm not having full lucids, at least I'm getting sp and FAs. I never got that before. Now I just have start focusing on y awareness and remeber to do reality checks everytime I wake up, because those FAs really trick me haha.

----------


## NrElAx

I've been talking a 2-3 day break from the G&C. This is only my third time taking it. I'm going to taking another three day break from it. But I like your view on my dream. A lot of that does make sense. I actually can't go to school for the semester so that probably why I brought up not going to school, but I like your point on the bicycle. That's very interesting.

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## SleepyKitty

> I've been talking a 2-3 day break from the G&C. This is only my third time taking it. I'm going to taking another three day break from it. But I like your view on my dream. A lot of that does make sense. I actually can't go to school for the semester so that probably why I brought up not going to school, but I like your point on the bicycle. That's very interesting.



Keep up the good work!  I've had 23 out of 25 successful LDs with Galantamine over the past 2-3 months.  LDS are not for everyone, as most people fear the unknown.  

I'm sure this has been posted before but please take a look, this link has lots of good info on what G actually does.

Review of Galantamine: the Lucid Dreaming Pill | The Dream Studies Portal

Enjoy LDing when ever you want  :smiley:

----------


## NrElAx

Yea I just think its amazing how well this stuff works for WILDs. Its like I take it, then set my alarm and hour later and I wake up and I can get into sp so easily. It was so hard for me to wild before. I don't know why this stuff works so well for that.

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## DpsBob

I'm going to have to give this stuff another go...

The last 2 times I've tried it, it kept me up. An overactive cholinergic system is very stimulating.

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## NrElAx

Damn, I thought I posted my results from this morning. Hmmm, I guess not. Well I tried it again this morning, and I got to sp once before my alarm went off and I heard two full length songs during it. Which was really cool. But again I had a dream about being on g&c. In my dream I was with my friend and I told him how mad I was that I stayed up after taking the galantamine instead of going to sleep. I missed so many oppurtunites this morning. I actually made some consciuos desiscions. For instance I saw a girl I know and in real life I always forget her name, and in the dream I had to stop and think what her name was. Ohh and I remembered something from my waking life that made me decide not to do something in my dream. But this stuff gives me nice long dreams, including this morning which seemed to be like 30 mins long.

----------


## tommo

Has anyone tried choline on it's own?
I've got lecithin granules which have a high choline content.

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## NrElAx

Well I tried it again this morning, but I took it an hour earlier. The result, 5 deilds.  They weren't that long and not that great, but at least I was lucid. Time to take the week off it now. Oh and I don't think choline will work as great without the G. But I forget what someone said on this thread about just using this.

----------


## SleepyKitty

Look into Alpha GPC.  It has made the Galantamine combo much much stronger.  I've noticed a huge difference on my ability to become lucid when not taking alpha gpc.


Good luck and don't overdo it with too many consecutive tries.  Keep that tolerance down.

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## NrElAx

Alright, I'll have to give that a try. I'm going to take the rest of the week off from the g&c. The most I do is two days in a row, I don't want a tolerance. Ohh and do I add that to my G&C

----------


## anderj101

> Look into Alpha GPC.  It has made the Galantamine combo much much stronger.  I've noticed a huge difference on my ability to become lucid when not taking alpha gpc.



+1 Alpha GPC.  Works quite well for me too.

----------


## NrElAx

> +1 Alpha GPC.  Works quite well for me too.



Well I ordered it, so it will be here friday. I've already had great success with the combo I have now, so I can't wait to see what the alpha gpc will do.

----------


## Verre

I've had some luck with Alpha-GPC on its own as a lucidity inducer. It's less reliable than the Galantamine + Choline / Alpha-GPC combo, but makes it much easier to get back to sleep.

----------


## NrElAx

I've been lucky so far because the G&C hasnt kept awake like it does for some. If it does keep me awake, I usually just go into sleep paralysis. I just wake up take the pills, and then fall back asleep. But last time I had a deild chain, I did my wbtb set my alarm for an hour later and then went to bed.

----------


## NrElAx

Well I had two short lived lucid last night with the combo. The first one was terrible. I felt drunk and had a hard time walking. I couldn't get out of the bathroom I was in haha. the second one I used visualization. Does anyone think that visualization works well with this stuff. Well I did that for mu second LD. I was laying in bed and it was almost time for me to get up, but I decided to try and visualize my hands rubbing my bedroom carpet. And then I saw my hands rubbing the carpet, but it faded quickly. So I tried again and once again, I saw my hands rubbing the carpet and it was clearier, bu the it faded again. So I tried one more tim and I visualized myself rubbing the carpet. This time it got much clearier and then my entire room showed up. So I got up and crawled to my door and pulles some blue tie that was stuck in between my doors. I got up and opened my door and decided to scream, "I'm dreaming" I then walked to my kitchen, and I wanted to make it to my backyard so badly, but for some reason I decided to open my real eyes. And they did. I did this after waking up from a dream and my visualization was amazing because I actaully started to feel my carpet. But I don't think the dream was stable enough because before I opened my door, I could still kind of feel my real body in bed.

----------


## manage71

Hi NrELAx,

Visualization can be very helpful in many different ways. I use it for my meditations when concentrating on an object for the purpose of steading the mind and banish all other toughs except the thought of the object itself. A couple of nights in a row , i have been using visualization and concentration on the throat chakra  center and it helps me with having very vivid dreams. Do you meditate? If not you might want ot try that as well since it will help you with steading the mind and concentration. The mind is like a wild horse it takes time to tame in order to be able to use. If used when wild , it might trow you off on the ground and break your neck.




> Well I had two short lived lucid last night with the combo. The first one was terrible. I felt drunk and had a hard time walking. I couldn't get out of the bathroom I was in haha. the second one I used visualization. Does anyone think that visualization works well with this stuff. Well I did that for mu second LD. I was laying in bed and it was almost time for me to get up, but I decided to try and visualize my hands rubbing my bedroom carpet. And then I saw my hands rubbing the carpet, but it faded quickly. So I tried again and once again, I saw my hands rubbing the carpet and it was clearier, bu the it faded again. So I tried one more tim and I visualized myself rubbing the carpet. This time it got much clearier and then my entire room showed up. So I got up and crawled to my door and pulles some blue tie that was stuck in between my doors. I got up and opened my door and decided to scream, "I'm dreaming" I then walked to my kitchen, and I wanted to make it to my backyard so badly, but for some reason I decided to open my real eyes. And they did. I did this after waking up from a dream and my visualization was amazing because I actaully started to feel my carpet. But I don't think the dream was stable enough because before I opened my door, I could still kind of feel my real body in bed.

----------


## NrElAx

I used to meditate a lot when I first started try to lucid, but I kind of stopped. Maybe I should start up again.

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## IcarusWilder

I have had a number of OBEs and LDs over the past 4 years using taoist, yogic and zen techniques and was getting a bit frustrated with the one to six month gaps between them. Lately I had been having about 1 LD per month, but fairly short. Finally started investigating the supplements, read T.Y.'s book and bought "Lucid Dreaming" (G + Ch) from DreamAmins.com. The first time I took it, combining it with WBTB, nothing happened except for some increased vividness and some hypnogogic music, as well as the sense that I could step out of my body without actually being able to. I attributed this to possibly having tea late in evening, and not doing WBTB until 6 hours into sleep and having difficulty falling back asleep. Waited 4 days and tried again and WHOOSH, had a prolonged LD, probably the longest I've ever had, with good dream control and a really cool soundtrack. Did some experiments, and visual, auditory, and tactile sensations were as real as life if not moreso. Have to say, I had been skeptical about the whole supplement thing, but I became an instant believer. Not that I'm convinced that it's the best way to LD, but it's sure the best at my current level of skill. Waited another 4 days, and again WHOOSH, another prolonged LD. After that, decided to "expand my portfolio" and ordered some Alpha GPC, Huperzine A and Mucuna. Also have some 5-HTP. Will wait a bit as I'm taking a high dose NSAID for a temporary medical condition and not sure about whether there are potential interactions with the nootropics, but plan to continue the experiments later this week.

----------


## manage71

I agree with you that with the supplements one can achieve a much faster result and experience lucidity almost every other night as long as the supplements are taken. However, my problem comes the next day when i sit down for my meditation session. I feel like i lose my focus easily and my concentration is weak.
 The other concern of mine is that the  supplements/ lucid dreaming thing propels me to have an obsession with the  whole matter and in case you are interested in taoism  you probably  know that reaching the way can not be done if any obsessions of the mind are present. All obsessions disturb the mind and disturb mind is oblivious mind.
What taoist practices have you done so far?







> I have had a number of OBEs and LDs over the past 4 years using taoist, yogic and zen techniques and was getting a bit frustrated with the one to six month gaps between them. Lately I had been having about 1 LD per month, but fairly short. Finally started investigating the supplements, read T.Y.'s book and bought "Lucid Dreaming" (G + Ch) from DreamAmins.com. The first time I took it, combining it with WBTB, nothing happened except for some increased vividness and some hypnogogic music, as well as the sense that I could step out of my body without actually being able to. I attributed this to possibly having tea late in evening, and not doing WBTB until 6 hours into sleep and having difficulty falling back asleep. Waited 4 days and tried again and WHOOSH, had a prolonged LD, probably the longest I've ever had, with good dream control and a really cool soundtrack. Did some experiments, and visual, auditory, and tactile sensations were as real as life if not moreso. Have to say, I had been skeptical about the whole supplement thing, but I became an instant believer. Not that I'm convinced that it's the best way to LD, but it's sure the best at my current level of skill. Waited another 4 days, and again WHOOSH, another prolonged LD. After that, decided to "expand my portfolio" and ordered some Alpha GPC, Huperzine A and Mucuna. Also have some 5-HTP. Will wait a bit as I'm taking a high dose NSAID for a temporary medical condition and not sure about whether there are potential interactions with the nootropics, but plan to continue the experiments later this week.

----------


## IcarusWilder

Interestingly I had a similar conversation with someone the other day about this. It seems to boil down to the immanent versus transcendent debate, "everyday mind" versus "cosmic consciousness," mindfulness versus the siddhis/supernormal perceptions/powers. I've practiced zen meditation in the Rinzai tradition, zen koans, mindfulness/open-awareness meditation and the Taoist microcosmic orbit (M.O.) in the tradition of Charles Luk's "Taoist Yoga." My most powerful OBE resulted from a combination of the M.O. with Zen Koans, but upon reflecting on the circumstances, it happened at 5:30 A.M. after waking up and doing the M.O. for a half hour, which really amounts to a WBTB, whatever one occupies the time with. I agree that one can become obsessed with the OBE or LD state, but the way I look at it, there are more meaningless things to be obsessed with. You're probably right that ultimately you need to let everything go, and paradoxically it was with that letting go that 3 years ago I found myself suspended in space listening to the music of the spheres. And yeah, I've been kind of obsessed with getting back there, so at least for the moment I'm going full speed ahead toward whatever Siddhis are beckoning, with the help of the supplements if necessary. The spiritual aspect of my practice is tending toward Kashmir Shaivism in the tradition of Swami Lakshmanjoo, with roots in that of Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta. I'm also exploring Vajrayana and the esoteric Taoist consciousness practice of the M.O. I've read some Mantak Chia as well, and he takes Taoist Yoga all the way, which is a little too far for me. I don't really do sitting meditation anymore, having now substituted "Dream Yoga" for waking body yoga or waking sitting meditation. The OBE / LD experience is so powerful, that I see meditation as a support for it rather than it as a support for or hinderance to meditation.

----------


## manage71

Hi,
Interesting... I have not had any experience with Taoist microcosmic orbit and the tradition which i follow is a bit different even though all the different ways eventually lead to the same direction. I guess it is important not to accept the way for the direction itself. I do mostly sitting meditation and yoga daily. Those practices have helped me with improving my concentration and distinguishing the thoughts from what I am.
 Nisargadatta-- i read some time ago, and it completely shattered the ideas of my mind. I have a bunch of books of Mantak Chia, but i have not had a chance to read any yet. I am reading Cleary's book- Begging Taoism which i find very interesting. 
Have you traveled anywhere for the purpose exploring your practices? Are you doing it on your own?







> Interestingly I had a similar conversation with someone the other day about this. It seems to boil down to the immanent versus transcendent debate, "everyday mind" versus "cosmic consciousness," mindfulness versus the siddhis/supernormal perceptions/powers. I've practiced zen meditation in the Rinzai tradition, zen koans, mindfulness/open-awareness meditation and the Taoist microcosmic orbit (M.O.) in the tradition of Charles Luk's "Taoist Yoga." My most powerful OBE resulted from a combination of the M.O. with Zen Koans, but upon reflecting on the circumstances, it happened at 5:30 A.M. after waking up and doing the M.O. for a half hour, which really amounts to a WBTB, whatever one occupies the time with. I agree that one can become obsessed with the OBE or LD state, but the way I look at it, there are more meaningless things to be obsessed with. You're probably right that ultimately you need to let everything go, and paradoxically it was with that letting go that 3 years ago I found myself suspended in space listening to the music of the spheres. And yeah, I've been kind of obsessed with getting back there, so at least for the moment I'm going full speed ahead toward whatever Siddhis are beckoning, with the help of the supplements if necessary. The spiritual aspect of my practice is tending toward Kashmir Shaivism in the tradition of Swami Lakshmanjoo, with roots in that of Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta. I'm also exploring Vajrayana and the esoteric Taoist consciousness practice of the M.O. I've read some Mantak Chia as well, and he takes Taoist Yoga all the way, which is a little too far for me. I don't really do sitting meditation anymore, having now substituted "Dream Yoga" for waking body yoga or waking sitting meditation. The OBE / LD experience is so powerful, that I see meditation as a support for it rather than it as a support for or hinderance to meditation.

----------


## NrElAx

Well I tried the alpha gpc with my g&c this morning. I couldn't fall back asleep though because I kept having stupd racing thoughts. But I evetually fell asleep and got lucid in a dream only long enough to do a nose pinch rc, but then woke up instantly after that. I'll try it again. Sometime this coming week. But I did have vivid dreams all night which sucked because I was in a car with a girl in one of the dreams and she ran a guy on a motorcycle over. I was freaking out, but luckely I woke up and it was a dream. Oh, and can someone tell me how much alpha gpc they use. I tried 600mg last night, so maybe next time I should just try 300mg.

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## Acala

Failure.

My first failure with GCT.

I took it after four hours of sleep during a WBTB.  By a series of weird events instead of going to bed I ended up in the muddy parking lot of the ski resort hotel trying to stuff folding music stands into the trunk of my car.  "What a waste of galantamine" I said.  "I should be up in the hotel room sleeping and lucid dreaming".  Of course I WAS dreaming.  At home in my own bed.  And not lucid.  Hahaha.

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## NrElAx

> Failure.
> 
> My first failure with GCT.
> 
> I took it after four hours of sleep during a WBTB.  By a series of weird events instead of going to bed I ended up in the muddy parking lot of the ski resort hotel trying to stuff folding music stands into the trunk of my car.  "What a waste of galantamine" I said.  "I should be up in the hotel room sleeping and lucid dreaming".  Of course I WAS dreaming.  At home in my own bed.  And not lucid.  Hahaha.



Haha I did the same thing last week. I was in a dream at some house and I was like, damn I'm wasting my galantamine right now. But everytime I take it, I seem to mention it in my dreams.

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## Acala

> Haha I did the same thing last week. I was in a dream at some house and I was like, damn I'm wasting my galantamine right now. But everytime I take it, I seem to mention it in my dreams.



Galantamine is the dream spice.   ::D:

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## Cosmix

So I tried 4mg Galatamine, 500mg Choline, and 200mg l-theanine for the first time last night.  I've been trying to WILD using the CAN-WILD technique for the past 4 weeks or so with only about 2 successful attempts.  But this lucid aid...holy crap it was amazing.  I went to bed at 11 and set my alarm for 3am.  I got up, went to the bathroom, chilled for about 10 minutes then took the combo and laid in bed.  I laid on my back and tried the counting method 1...I'm dreaming, 2...I'm dreaming, up to 10 then repeating.  However, I was somewhat restless and was unable to sleep.  What felt like an hour went by when the tired feeling hit me so I lay on my left side and started the counting method again.  BAM SP hits with the most prominent effects I've had during SP.  I can hear two men talking, which startles me out of it, but I'm soon back in and hearing their convo.  I try talking and cant move my mouth or anything, which freaks me out once more, but I enter back in and I roll over and plop I'm standing in my living room to one of the most vivid and intense LD's I've had.  In fact after that one ended I had another one right after.  It was so great!  Can't wait to try again this thursday.

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## IcarusWilder

At this point I'm mostly going solo, though I have been to a number of retreats, e.g., Zen, Mindfulness, Holotropic Breathwork, Western Mystery School, etc. My main practice is just Being and being aware of Being and Awareness of Being, plus MILD, WILD, VILD, the M.O from time to time, and now the supplements, and lots and lots of reading on the various spiritual, mystical, transpersonal and oneirological (and OBEological) traditions. I'm also looking into buying some EEG neurofeedback equipment, maybe the Emotive Headset and Research Edition of the Software Development Kit (the Kit comes with the advanced version of the headset).

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## IcarusWilder

I'm definitely with you on the "it was amazing." I've never tried hallucinogens due to concerns about safety, but with G, who needs to. It's like having a bottle of L with your own brain supplying the SD. Just hope the FDA doesn't start regulating it as is the tradition with potentially consciousness raising substances. Given its use in prescription form for Alzheimers, its use for lucid dreams could be considered "off-label use of a pharmaceutical for an unapproved indication" (despite the fact that it isn't being taken in its pharmaceutical form, and is being used in a much smaller dose, with a much reduced frequency). If the pharmaceutical companies and mainstream scientists were a little more -- ok, a lot more -- creative, rather than taking a uniquely curative approach to pharmacology they would branch out into "positive pharmacology" in the tradition of "positive psychology" and use their resources to make a bundle on marketing G and the other oneiro-supps themselves for lucid dreaming and other positive or even transpersonal purposes. Meanwhile, we can continue our grass-root scientific self-exploration on the downlow.

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## NrElAx

Yea it was rediculous how easy it was to get into sp the first few times I used it. I think they shouldn't label the pills lucid dreaming pills, but instead galantamine. That way no one will suspect it being used for something else.

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## Cosmix

Hey NrElAx, I usually go to bed between 10pm and 11pm and have my alarm for 2am or 3am.  Anyway, I have to get up for work at 530AM; would the Galatamine/Choline/Theanine be to "heavy" for that early of a wake up?

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## NrElAx

> Hey NrElAx, I usually go to bed between 10pm and 11pm and have my alarm for 2am or 3am.  Anyway, I have to get up for work at 530AM; would the Galatamine/Choline/Theanine be to "heavy" for that early of a wake up?



Are you asking if its a bad idea to take it if your getting up so early? If so, I mean for me, I don't get affected by this stuff when I wake up in the morning. So far, I've felt refreshed when I wake up. Everytime I take it though, I wake up after almost every dream, which so far has been a good thing because it gave me a deild chain. So if it doesn't affect you in the morning, then I think you'll be fine. But it is kind of close to the time that your waking up and I notice that this stuff always makes my body heavy for like two after after it kicks in. But maybe that could just be sp. I don't know if I answered your question right.

----------


## Cosmix

Yeah you did thanks.  I'll give it a try tonight and see how it goes.

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## NrElAx

I might take it tomarrow morning too, but I took it sunday morning. But I started taking piracetam both sunday morning and this morning, so I don't know if its out of my system. But I hope all goes well cosmix, hopefully it doesn't make you feel crappy tomarrow.

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## IcarusWilder

What's "sp"?

----------


## NrElAx

> What's "sp"?



Stands for sleep paralysis. Well I had 3 lucids this morning from the combo. But only took 300 mg of alpha gpc with it this time. The first two I tryed having sex both times and both times didn't even get close to having sex before I woke up. I kept trying to find a good place to do it, so it took a while. And the last one I tried flying. I tryed falling forward to see if I'd hover, but I didn't and I hit the ground. Then I just decided to just up and it worked and I launched into the sky, but a guy followed me and it scared the crap out of me and I woke up. The first two were hazy and I have to work on my awareness more. My level of lucid in the first two were probably about a 3 and the last one maybe a 4. But still good progress for me.

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## SleepyKitty

> Stands for sleep paralysis. Well I had 3 lucids this morning from the combo. But only took 300 mg of alpha gpc with it this time. The first two I tryed having sex both times and both times didn't even get close to having sex before I woke up. I kept trying to find a good place to do it, so it took a while. And the last one I tried flying. I tryed falling forward to see if I'd hover, but I didn't and I hit the ground. Then I just decided to just up and it worked and I launched into the sky, but a guy followed me and it scared the crap out of me and I woke up. The first two were hazy and I have to work on my awareness more. My level of lucid in the first two were probably about a 3 and the last one maybe a 4. But still good progress for me.




Awesome.  My LDs last a lot longer when I stop myself from attacking everything in sight with my penis.  I try to gain control of my senses when I enter my LDs but usually only touch something then i'm on my way with my LD A.D.D.

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## NrElAx

Do you remember your lucids very well when taking this stuff. I mean I remember the last lucidfrom this morning pretty well, and vivid parts from the other two, but its still kind of blurry. Is that because my dreams weren't that vivid, because the first lucid I had(which was just a dild w/out the g&c)was short but I will never forget it.

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## Cosmix

Took it last night and had a real hard time WILDing, kept tossing and turning - could not get comfortable.  Eventually, I gave up probably between 4-5 and had some vivid dreams but no lucids.  I woke really refreshed and ready to go which was much better than what I was expecting  :smiley:   I'll be trying again friday morning.

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## NrElAx

> I woke really refreshed and ready to go which was much better than what I was expecting   I'll be trying again friday morning.



Yea I usually feel pretty good when I wake up. But this morning I felt really tired and my body felt all heavy. Did you dream about the galantamine at all. I notice if I don't get lucid off of it, then I'll either have very vivid dreams or dream about the galantamine. And the vivid dreams are so vivd that it feels like I'm conscious but I can't control what I'm doing and I'm forced to do what's going on.

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## Cosmix

> Yea I usually feel pretty good when I wake up. But this morning I felt really tired and my body felt all heavy. Did you dream about the galantamine at all. I notice if I don't get lucid off of it, then I'll either have very vivid dreams or dream about the galantamine. And the vivid dreams are so vivd that it feels like I'm conscious but I can't control what I'm doing and I'm forced to do what's going on.



Lol oh man that's perfect description.  I was dreaming that I was shopping for some new shoes and I was talking to my friend about the galatamine/choline combo and how it increases dream vividness and helps with becoming lucid.

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## NrElAx

> Lol oh man that's perfect description.  I was dreaming that I was shopping for some new shoes and I was talking to my friend about the galatamine/choline combo and how it increases dream vividness and helps with becoming lucid.



Haha yea everytime it happens to me im with a friend and im like damn dude, I totally wasted the galantamine by staying a wake. But really im asleep and dreaming. Oh and does anyone know how fast the piracetam takes the galantamine out of your system?

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## Verre

> Awesome.  My LDs last a lot longer when I stop myself from attacking everything in sight with my penis.  I try to gain control of my senses when I enter my LDs but usually only touch something then i'm on my way with my LD A.D.D.



I know exactly what you mean! "Lucid consciousness" seems at least as different from "waking consciousness" as it is from "dreaming consciousness," which fascinates me. Awake, I'm a very thoughtful, methodical, careful person with a relatively low libido. Lucid, I likewise experience hypersexuality and A.D.D., which has been frustrating, because I'm much more interested in exploring the environment and practicing my set tasks than mere pleasure-seeking. I'm good at remembering a lot of my tasks, but there are certain specific ones that I almost *never* remember to do, for some reason. I'm also really curious why sex has played such a big part in my lucid dreams, and Galantamine dreams in particular, when it almost never occurs in my NON-lucid dreams. Is the Galantamine a contributing factor?

Next morning:
Last night I tried the amino acid combination (2000mg L-Aspartic Acid, 4000mg L-Glutamine, 300mg L-Theanine) for the first time. Wow! It worked extraordinarily well, and I felt like I had an even higher degree of clarity and conscious awareness than I've ever experienced on the G+C combo. Interestingly, the dream also was completely free of any libidinous impulses, which furthers my suspicion that Galantamine can act as a kind of LD-Viagra! I hesitate to put all the blame on it, since my "natural" LDs (achieved without supplements) have sometimes included sexual content, but in the Galantamine dreams it seems like I get seduced into these situations even when I hadn't intended to (or had intended NOT to.)

I've also noticed that Galantamine seems to raise my physical body's heart rate and body temperature, which could be a contributing factor.

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## NrElAx

Verre, whered you buy your L-Aspartic acid. Could I buy it at a local store because I have glutamine and theanine.

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## Verre

> Verre, whered you buy your L-Aspartic acid. Could I buy it at a local store because I have glutamine and theanine.



I looked for it at several different grocery stores that carry a huge selection of supplements, but couldn't find it anywhere, and Amazon didn't carry any with free shipping, so I ended up buying it from iherb.com. They didn't charge too much for shipping and mailed the package quickly, so it was a good experience. I didn't try a store like Vitamin Express that specializes in supplements, though, so if you don't want to buy online you might inquire at one of those types of places. It's possible they could special order it if they don't have it in stock.

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## NrElAx

Alright thanks. I might try glutamine and theanine on its own during my wbtb tomarrow morning because I heard some had success with that.

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## Serenity

Woot! Last time I tried G/C with this insomnia sleep aid (that doesn't suppress REM), I got 4 LD's that night, AND woke up feeling very rested (which is a new thing for me... G/C usually leaves me feeling exhausted for the entire day).

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## TommyCat

Hey, what is the "insomnia sleep aid" you are taking and did it help fall asleep quickly after the G/C ?

Thanks

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## NrElAx

Well I tried 12 mg this morning. I know, I'm going to ruin my tolerenace. But I'm going on vacation fir 10 days and I'm not bringing the G+C with me, si I figure that will help. But I had a very interesting morning. I took it at 6am and couldn't fall back to sleep but I felt very relaxed and heavy. Eventually I did and I had three dreams and realized I was dreaming in all of them but woke up. I don't even remember thoughs dreams though. The next part is interesting. I woke up from the last dream into sp and I was laying on my side. I was able to open my eyes during the sp, but I didn't want to move, so I closed my eyes and I felt my dream body laying up right on my bed, so I opened my eyes and tried getting out of bed, and I did but I felt all drunk, like I do sometimes with this stuff. I made it to my door but woke up. But I did it again and closed my eyes and I felt my dream body. This literally happened like 8 times. It was like if I closed my eyes, I would automatically feel my dream body in my bed. Twice I opened my eyed and I saw a black suitcase floating over my bed and I tried kicking it, but I would feel both my dream leg and my real leg. But my real leg didn't move. Another time I got out of bed but I was like blind and I decided screw my door, I'm going to try and go through my wall. And it worked but then I woke up again. It was such a weird experience. Its like I was stuck going in and out of waking life and dream life. At times it felt like I was stuck in between haha. But eventually I decided to move my toe and get out of sp which I wish I didn't. It sucked because the 4 times I actually made it out of my bed, I could barely walk. I tried rubbing my hands together and it worked a little but then I would feel all drunk again. But it was a fun experience that you'd have to experience to understand. I'm so glad I got into lucid dreaming because now I get experience all this weird crap haha.

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## SleepyKitty

> Do you remember your lucids very well when taking this stuff?



It depends.  Half the time i'll wake up and instantly remember a good portion of my LD.  The other half I wake up feeling like i had a LD and have to try really hard to recall pieces of the dream.  Sometimes I know I have a LD and still can't remember any part.

Everyone tells beginners recall is key... I know why.

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## DukeDreamWalker

I have taken the 8mg of G and 400 of C combo now 6 times over a period of about 5 weeks.   I have experienced 1 DILD, 3 WILDs, and two failures with these supplements.  My DILD lasted what seemed to be an hour yet was dark and somewhat dull.  All three of my WILDs only lasted a short time.  I always separate from my body and find myself in the room where I am sleeping.  As I walk through the house in the dark and out the door I usually start flying and the loose lucidity shortly thereafter.  I try to stabilized by spinning, looking at my hands and rubbing my hands together but that doesn't seem to help.  I have also noticed that since I have been taking these supplements that it is now harder to go lucid without them.  :Sad: 

Does anyone have any advise for me as to how I can extend my lucid experiences?   Thanks! ::roll::

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## Serenity

> Hey, what is the "insomnia sleep aid" you are taking and did it help fall asleep quickly after the G/C ?
> 
> Thanks



I promised myself I would look at the box and take a picture of it or something to post here... but I haven't done it, yet. Basically, it's a combo of lemon balm, l-theanine, some B-vitamins, etc. Great stuff! Extremely hard to find, though.





> Well I tried 12 mg this morning. I know, I'm going to ruin my tolerenace. But I'm going on vacation fir 10 days and I'm not bringing the G+C with me, si I figure that will help.



Err, yeah, it should, I guess. I don't know much about cleansing it out of your system once you continue to build a tolerance... 10 days _should_ be enough to reset your level of tolerance?





> I woke up from the last dream into sp and I was laying on my side. I was able to open my eyes during the sp, but I didn't want to move, so I closed my eyes and I felt my dream body laying up right on my bed, so I opened my eyes and tried getting out of bed, and I did but I felt all drunk, like I do sometimes with this stuff. I made it to my door but woke up. But I did it again and closed my eyes and I felt my dream body. This literally happened like 8 times.



Ahhh, yeah. This is fairly typical with me and G/C. I will almost always "wake up" and experience sleep paralysis, but it's usually a false awakening. My general rule of thumb is... if I'm experiencing these sensations, there's a high chance it's a dream. I just don't experience these kinds of things when I try to WILD (my WILDs are usually transitionless, so it's hard to catch).





> I have also noticed that since I have been taking these supplements that it is now harder to go lucid without them.



Do you feel that the G/C is becoming a crutch? Are you relying too much on them? It's all up to you on how you want to become lucid. I know a few guys who use different LDS combos almost every night, with a few days rest in their cycle before they go again. I know people who just use an LDS once or twice a week as a boost. And then many won't use them at all, and prefer to rely on the natural methods.

If all you want is the boost, I would suggest backing off the LDS's for a bit (like a week or so) and get yourself back into the consistent practice of a standard technique.

Anyways, even with LDS's, you still need to focus and practice an induction technique. An LDS without a technique is almost guaranteed not to work.





> Does anyone have any advise for me as to how I can extend my lucid experiences?   Thanks!



I try to DEILD whenever I wake up during a G/C night. Usually, it's just a false awakening anyways, so re-entry is fairly simple.

----------


## Rozollo

This may have been answered, but my search of the thread showed nothing.  Is GalantMind drug test safe without a perscription?  I've only had one induced LD (a DILD), so will this hinder progress if I use this to WILD?

----------


## NrElAx

Well depeding where your from you might not need a prescription. But I doubt it would. But its great for entering sp. I could never enter sp and once I started taking this, I almost always entered sp.

----------


## DukeDreamWalker

Serenity, thanks for taking the time to reply





> Do you feel that the G/C is becoming a crutch?



After reading _Advanced Lucid Dreaming - The Power of Supplements_ by Thomas Yuschak from cover to cover twice, I feel that I have a pretty good understanding about how the use of supplements can enhance the lucid experience. I dont understand how you conclude that I might be using them as a crutch when I am simple trying to enhance my lucidity. Now, in my way of thinking those guys who use different LDS combos almost every night have developed an unhealthy and dangerous crutch!





> Are you relying too much on them?



How can I be relying too much on them when I only use them once a week?  I still dont understand where you are getting this from.





> It's all up to you on how you want to become lucid.



Yes, I understand this.  Being fairly new at lucid dreaming I only average 2 or 3 lucid dreams a week and I am trying to increase frequency and duration. Once again my reasoning for taking suppliments.





> Anyways, even with LDS's, you still need to focus and practice an induction technique. An LDS without a technique is almost guaranteed not to work.



Yes, I still focus and practice an induction technique, in fact I use different techniques depending on what Im trying to accomplish.  Sometimes I use WILD and sometime MILD and occationally my lucid dreams are induced by dream signs (DILD).





> I try to DEILD whenever I wake up during a G/C night. Usually, it's just a false awakening anyways, so re-entry is fairly simple.



Finally something useful! Thanks for this advise!  I will have to read up on DEILD and use it next time!

----------


## DukeDreamWalker

> This may have been answered, but my search of the thread showed nothing.  Is GalantMind drug test safe without a perscription?



Galantamine (brand name : Razadyne) is used primarily in the medical field for treating those afflicted with Alzheimer disease.  This link should provide further useful information: PubMed Health - Galantamine





> I've only had one induced LD (a DILD), so will this hinder progress if I use this to WILD?



According to my limited experience Galantamine can be very effective in enhancing any lucid dream regardless of the induction technique.  There are many examples throughout this thread that substantiate this!

Good luck, TheKing!  :smiley:

----------


## Rozollo

I bought a bottle of Galantamind.  Is that still a good product?

----------


## NrElAx

> I bought a bottle of Galantamind.  Is that still a good product?



Yea I think it is. I use a different one but I think a lot of other people use that one.

----------


## Rozollo

I decided to wait after reading that link DukeDreamWalker posted.  I want to attain lucidity on my own then experiment with supplements.

I have to ask, galantamine is a perscription drug and using or carrying a perscription drug without the perscription is a felony in the US.  How do all of you get around that?

----------


## DukeDreamWalker

> I want to attain lucidity on my own then experiment with supplements.



Sounds like a wise idea! In fact that is what Thomas Yuschak advises in his book: Advanced Lucid Dreaming - The Power of Supplements.

You may want to read his book before you start using supplements.  Here is a link where it can be purchased:

Amazon.com: Advanced Lucid Dreaming: The Power of Supplements (9781430305422): Thomas Yuschak: Books: Reviews, Prices & more

----------


## NrElAx

> I decided to wait after reading that link DukeDreamWalker posted.  I want to attain lucidity on my own then experiment with supplements.
> 
> I have to ask, galantamine is a perscription drug and using or carrying a perscription drug without the perscription is a felony in the US.  How do all of you get around that?



I don't know. I think maybe they just have it as perscription and also over the internet. Just like they have ibuprofin 800 mg as a perscription but you can just take 4 200 mg ibuprofin that you buy from the store.

----------


## Rozollo

After wafting, I bought Lucid Dreamer from Dreamamins.  It 4mg of galantamine with 200mg of choline in a single tablet.  While I have only succeeded at DILDing once, I think my biggest hinderence with WILD is a lack of knowing what to expect.  Hopefully, I can WILD without the supplement this weekend, but if not, at least I have a fallback, and maybe this will help...

My biggest fear is I will only be able to LD with this pill afterwards.  Is that an unfounded fear?

----------


## manage71

Hi,

It is my opinion that the best is to learn how to have ld without any supplements. There are many subtle chemical reactions which take place and many neurotransmitters which levels increase once the supplements are taken which is the faster way around however, that type of approach might lead to dependency. I guess be careful what you condition yourself to...   



> After wafting, I bought Lucid Dreamer from Dreamamins.  It 4mg of galantamine with 200mg of choline in a single tablet.  While I have only succeeded at DILDing once, I think my biggest hinderence with WILD is a lack of knowing what to expect.  Hopefully, I can WILD without the supplement this weekend, but if not, at least I have a fallback, and maybe this will help...
> 
> My biggest fear is I will only be able to LD with this pill afterwards.  Is that an unfounded fear?

----------


## Rozollo

That's what I was thinking.  I think I will work hard this weekend, because I feel I am close to WILD.  Once I get a WILD or two, I'll try supplements.

Thanks!

----------


## Serenity

> I don’t understand how you conclude that I might be using them as a “crutch” when I am simple trying to enhance my lucidity. Now, in my way of thinking those “guys who use different LDS combos almost every night” have developed an unhealthy and dangerous crutch!



I really do apologize, it sounds like you're offended by my post, which I really didn't mean to at all  :Sad:  But that idea got into my head because you said, "I have also noticed that since I have been taking these supplements that it is now harder to go lucid without them.  :Sad: " I made the mistake of assuming that you may be relying on the lucid aids too much if it was becoming difficult to get lucid without them. Perhaps the idea of a crutch was not the right idea, so unfortunately, I'm not sure how to address that issue after all.





> How can I be relying too much on them when I only use them once a week?  I still don’t understand where you are getting this from.



Quite simply, I really am _that bad_ at math, and didn't really consider what "6 times in 5 weeks" really meant. Me and numbers do not work well with each other.





> Finally something useful! Thanks for this advise!  I will have to read up on DEILD and use it next time!



Well, I'm glad I was able to help you out with something...

----------


## Cosmix

So I've used this combo 4 times and have been successful twice.  The two times I failed is because I fell asleep instead of performing a WILD method.  I've tried a couple different doses and the best so far seems to be 4mg Galatamine, 700mg Choline, and 300mg L-Theanine.  Last night I had a lucid with Charlie Sheen and my cat it was quite odd and I kept blinking in and out of lucids like they were extremely short but each one was sequential to the others.  After roughly 6 of these I ended up in a regular dream that was about the lucids I just had but that the government was watching LD'ers and trying to stop them and they were chasing me through the dream.  It was pretty intense, weird, and entertaining  :smiley:

----------


## NrElAx

> I kept blinking in and out of lucids like they were extremely short but each one was sequential to the others.  After roughly 6 of these I ended up in a regular dream



I've had something like that twice so far. Last time I kept going from my dream body to my real body in my bed. I would open my eyes and be in my dream body in my bed and then a second later I'd be in my real body. This went back and forth like 8 times. It was so stranges

----------


## Cosmix

> I've had something like that twice so far. Last time I kept going from my dream body to my real body in my bed. I would open my eyes and be in my dream body in my bed and then a second later I'd be in my real body. This went back and forth like 8 times. It was so stranges



lol yes exactly, it was all happening in my room too.

----------


## NrElAx

> lol yes exactly, it was all happening in my room too.



I was getting mad though because I was having such a hard time getting out of my bed while I was in the dream. And the floating black suitcase I kept seeing over my bed also made it hard to get out of bed. I was like why is this thing floating over me haha.

----------


## Cosmix

> I was getting mad though because I was having such a hard time getting out of my bed while I was in the dream. And the floating black suitcase I kept seeing over my bed also made it hard to get out of bed. I was like why is this thing floating over me haha.



haha I know what you mean.  The first one my cat jumped on my bed and I was like I didn't let him in and became lucid.  I then tried interacting with him but my movements were really sluggish and kind of hard to control, I tried speaking and my voice was long and drawn out.  This happened twice, then I woke standing by my closet and it was sooo hard to walk.  My legs felt like anvils.  I then flew uncontrollably around my room knocking over my lamp and other things.

----------


## NrElAx

Yea I think the galantamine ruins my lucids sometimes because it makes me all slugish feeling too. But that has only happened if I become lucid right after waking up and I end up in my bed.

----------


## DukeDreamWalker

Another successful WILD with the help of G/C, however as before it was short lived.  :Sad: 

Any ideas of how I can prolong my WILD lucid experiences longer that 3-5 minutes?  ::?:   I usually try to stabilize by spinning and rubbing my hands.

----------


## Rozollo

I received a bottle of Pro-Galantamine from Dreamamins (as opposed to what I ordered "Lucid Dream" which has Choline as well as Galantamine).  I'm a bit nervous about taking this stuff now that I have it.  I had my second induced lucid dream, but I am definitely hitting a wall.

Also, I haven't found much on Dreamamins, but they are recommended fairly frequently.  Any chance that this stuff won't be pure galantamine?  I really worry about my ability to pass random drug tests at work.  Sorry for the paranoia...

----------


## manage71

Hi,

if you are trying the supplements , you will need some choline too. It is important substance which increases the levels of acetil-choline neurotransmitter in the brain. Only G won't do. Beside that, you want to buy some piracetam as well. THis you can take in the morning after you wake up. The reasoning behind taking the Piracetam is that curbs the side effects of the G. Usually when i take the supplements , next tday i am left with a very dull feeling, almost like having a bad hangover. It is not bad but Piracetam makes it much easier to go through out the day.

ps: drug test, even if they find it in your system it is nootropic drugs and those are not prohibited but allowed to take.







> I received a bottle of Pro-Galantamine from Dreamamins (as opposed to what I ordered "Lucid Dream" which has Choline as well as Galantamine).  I'm a bit nervous about taking this stuff now that I have it.  I had my second induced lucid dream, but I am definitely hitting a wall.
> 
> Also, I haven't found much on Dreamamins, but they are recommended fairly frequently.  Any chance that this stuff won't be pure galantamine?  I really worry about my ability to pass random drug tests at work.  Sorry for the paranoia...

----------


## manage71

Hi IcarusWilder,

I want to know more about your experience with the M.O. and Charles Luk's writing. I am reading his book taoist yoga and i have watched some of Mantak CHia movies and it seams that there are some major differences. I am not sure what is right and what is wrong. People usually say that you can get messed up by not doing the MO the right way, and I really want to try it but i do not want to be waisting my time with some practice that is not authentic and real. 
 Now, the Luk's book is interesting but the allegorical style makes it a bit vague and stuff such as freeze the fire, lead the fire, lower the fire, etc. , those do not make too much sense. The book points out on several occasions that in order to follow the right path one better get an enlightened teacher. Unfortunately i have no access to such commodity right now. So I am wondering if you can shed some light and give me some guidance,  it is greatly appreciated.
thanks







> Interestingly I had a similar conversation with someone the other day about this. It seems to boil down to the immanent versus transcendent debate, "everyday mind" versus "cosmic consciousness," mindfulness versus the siddhis/supernormal perceptions/powers. I've practiced zen meditation in the Rinzai tradition, zen koans, mindfulness/open-awareness meditation and the Taoist microcosmic orbit (M.O.) in the tradition of Charles Luk's "Taoist Yoga." My most powerful OBE resulted from a combination of the M.O. with Zen Koans, but upon reflecting on the circumstances, it happened at 5:30 A.M. after waking up and doing the M.O. for a half hour, which really amounts to a WBTB, whatever one occupies the time with. I agree that one can become obsessed with the OBE or LD state, but the way I look at it, there are more meaningless things to be obsessed with. You're probably right that ultimately you need to let everything go, and paradoxically it was with that letting go that 3 years ago I found myself suspended in space listening to the music of the spheres. And yeah, I've been kind of obsessed with getting back there, so at least for the moment I'm going full speed ahead toward whatever Siddhis are beckoning, with the help of the supplements if necessary. The spiritual aspect of my practice is tending toward Kashmir Shaivism in the tradition of Swami Lakshmanjoo, with roots in that of Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta. I'm also exploring Vajrayana and the esoteric Taoist consciousness practice of the M.O. I've read some Mantak Chia as well, and he takes Taoist Yoga all the way, which is a little too far for me. I don't really do sitting meditation anymore, having now substituted "Dream Yoga" for waking body yoga or waking sitting meditation. The OBE / LD experience is so powerful, that I see meditation as a support for it rather than it as a support for or hinderance to meditation.

----------


## Rozollo

> Hi,
> 
> if you are trying the supplements , you will need some choline too. It is important substance which increases the levels of acetil-choline neurotransmitter in the brain. Only G won't do. Beside that, you want to buy some piracetam as well. THis you can take in the morning after you wake up. The reasoning behind taking the Piracetam is that curbs the side effects of the G. Usually when i take the supplements , next tday i am left with a very dull feeling, almost like having a bad hangover. It is not bad but Piracetam makes it much easier to go through out the day.
> 
> ps: drug test, even if they find it in your system it is nootropic drugs and those are not prohibited but allowed to take.



I decided it was too sketchy for my liking.  The pills were homemade capsules, and while I saw no reviews, I am sure it was legitimate galantamine, but when I called them, the conversation we had made me unwilling to put their products in my body.  First off, like I said, they sent me the wrong product.  When I requested a refund, they said no refunds allowed, when their website says it is.  I finally get refund permission, and they give me another address to send it to, and claim that'll send a check.  Checks can be canceled after issuing, so I just washed my hands of it, and chalked it as a loss.  While I have no doubt it was probably fine, I didn't feel confident at all with taking this product.

----------


## Matte87

I bought some Galantamine + Choline from dreamamins.com and I will recieve the bottle in a few days hopefully. Is the "hangover" really that bad? I haven't bought the Piracetam. I haven't tried to WILD yet, and I don't think I will be able to without lucid aids, but my question is: Can I WBTB / MILD on this pill? Will it work the same?

Calea question: I got some Calea from a DV member, and I'm wondering if that also might be something I could WILD on. I really wanna give WILD a try.

I won't take these things regularly, and never more than once a week, and a week apart aswell.

Thanks!

----------


## NrElAx

> I bought some Galantamine + Choline from dreamamins.com and I will recieve the bottle in a few days hopefully. Is the "hangover" really that bad? I haven't bought the Piracetam. I haven't tried to WILD yet, and I don't think I will be able to without lucid aids, but my question is: Can I WBTB / MILD on this pill? Will it work the same?
> 
> Calea question: I got some Calea from a DV member, and I'm wondering if that also might be something I could WILD on. I really wanna give WILD a try.
> 
> I won't take these things regularly, and never more than once a week, and a week apart aswell.
> 
> Thanks!



I dont really get any hangover effect from the pills, but everyone is different. And you should be able to to MILD with it, you dont have to try and WILD.

----------


## Serenity

I sometimes get a bit of a hangover effect. 1 pill is generally not bad at all, but when I took 2 pills, it chalked up there with the worst headaches I've ever experienced! 1 pill totally does the trick for me though. My tolerance to it is very low, and I only take it about once a week.

You can MILD with it just fine. In fact, I prefer it that way. Sorry I haven't emailed you yet, Matte... life is hectic atm!

----------


## NrElAx

I had a terrible experience the other night with G. I took it and went into sp and started hearing my dad running down my hallway screaming omg omg omg. I woke myself up but went back into sp after. This time I heard this girl screaming in my ears and making this scary noise. I heard her three more times after going into sp multiple times. Finally I became lucid in my room, but kept going from my dream body to my real body. A few times I was able to get up and go through my wall but i would wake up. The last time I became lucid but couldnt put my hand through my wall so I figured I was awake. So I got in my bed and looked up and this guy was kneeling over me. Ir looked like the guy from the movie jeepers creepers and it was the most terrifying thing I have experienced in my life. I kept telling myself its my dream, I can make him go away and would close my eyes. But when I opened them he would be closer to my face and was making this loud breathing screaching noise. Finally, i forced my real eyes open and woke up. I was mad because I let the dream take control and scare me, even though I knew I was dreaming.

----------


## Serenity

Hollllllly moly Nrelax.... That would make me not want to go back to sleep for the rest of the night!  :Sad:

----------


## Draxis

Thats one of the things Yuschak warns you about, it can be hellsa scary at times. Don't worry though, given time you get used to it. I plan to get back on my LDS things to help me break out of a terrible dry spell

----------


## Matte87

Ah alright  :smiley:  MILD it is! I will try WILD out another day when I'm more used to the pills. That sounds like an awesome experience NrElAx! Scary but totally awesome.

----------


## NrElAx

Haha it was a fun experience looking back at it. God the things I've experienced while taking G&C are crazy. Glad I bought the stuff. And the good thing is its been helping me become lucid without it, which I didn't think was going to happen. But its been short lucids

----------


## SleepyKitty

> Haha it was a fun experience looking back at it. God the things I've experienced while taking G&C are crazy. Glad I bought the stuff. And the good thing is its been helping me become lucid without it, which I didn't think was going to happen. But its been short lucids



Indeed G combo can be very intense at times.  I've had that horrible gut feeling while waking up from a small nightmare while on G... sure felt real...

I took 8 mg gal + 400 mg choline + 200mg l-theanine + 300 mg alpha gpc

Had another amazing night of dreams.

Became lucid twice but very early after consuming G combo, forgot most of my LD but had lots of dreams afterwards.

Stuff is still working a good 95% of the time.

Few notes...


Stopped taking G combo for about a month due to low will power.

- 5 small Natural lucid dreams this past month

- It Seems G combo isn't affecting my natural LD ability

- Feels like G combo helps my natural LD abilities when off the supplements for a short time

- After 3-4 months of taking G combo I have noticed 0 side effects (thus far)

- Only feelings I've encounterd are somewhat of a body rush, almost like adrenalin before falling asleep from the WBTB

- Only unable to fall asleep twice after about 35-40 G combo attempts

- L-theanine helps me fall asleep with ease during the WBTB

I'm excited to see so many people participating in this thread.  Keep up the good work!

----------


## Serenity

I've been rather disappointed with my last two tries. The first (of the last two) had a long, low-level lucid, which was alright (other than having no control over it). But the last time blew. No lucids and terrible recall.

----------


## SleepyKitty

> I've been rather disappointed with my last two tries. The first (of the last two) had a long, low-level lucid, which was alright (other than having no control over it). But the last time blew. No lucids and terrible recall.



I've had that happen twice... they were actually consecutive tries as well, after the 3 day wait.  Maybe you're stressed or have been slacking on your RCs?  I know I stopped dreaming completely when I was really stressed for a while...

It's helped before i'm sure it will again.  Maybe give it a week before trying again.

Good luck.

----------


## col

Hi everyone,

I am new to these forums and have been reading with interest on this subject, I have been trying to have Lucid dreams for years with very little success, I started over 15 years ago when I bought the Novadreamer, I tried all techniques for about 2 years but only had a handful of lucid dreams and decided that the results weren't worth the effort.

About a month ago I discovered Thomas Yuschak's book in the ibook store and ordered some Lucid dreamer pills from dreamamins, first night I took one at 4am but nothing happened (too much alcohol the night before I think) some days later took 5htp  at bedtime and pill at 4am, kept me awake for ages and then had a very intense sp but no dreamscape when I got there, last night took a pill at 4am fell asleep for an hour and when I woke up I had 2 sp close to each other but no dream scape to become lucid in.

Anybody else had this?

----------


## NrElAx

Yea that happens to me a lot. I tried again last night and it was the craziest expereince so far. So I took it at 4:30am and for some reason, the last few times I haven't been able to fall asleep for like 2 hours or longer. But eventually I found myself to be extremly tired and heavy feeling so I figures I could get into sp hella easily and I did. So I went into sp multiple times and everytime I heard two full songs playing. It was freakin awsome. This is the second time this has happned to me. It was like I would just lay there and wait for the music to start playing and it happened multiple times. I eventually got lucid using my vild type technique where I visualize myelf rubbing my carpet and looking under the crack under my door. That works for me everytime. But I became lucid and ran through my wall, into my kitchen and through my backdoor into my backyard. When I got into my backyard I saw the sun rising but it looked all cartoonish. Then I ran towards my fence and jump up and started to fly, and woke up. Haha I don't know why I woke up, I didn't get excited. But also once again,I kept going in and out of being in my real body to being in my dream body. This time it lasted like 10 minutes and everytime I was in my dream body in my bed, there was a different person floating in my room. I couldn't move that well and kept trying to grab them, but they would float away. Oh and I also got a dild, but it lasted like 10 seconds. I tried spinning but it faded to quickly.

----------


## IcarusWilder

I've tried the G + Ch (Dreamamins) four times now on a WBTB basis. The first time, nothing happened. The second and third times were very long, vivid, controllable LDs with amazing soundtracks, if I do say so myself. The fourth time nothing happened. The second time, I awoke after 4 hours, took the green pill, did some reading for 20 minutes and went back to sleep and LD'd. The third time, I awoke after 4 hours, took the green pill, read for an hour, and had difficulty getting back to sleep (it took another half hour) but did have the LD. I think it might be important to go to bed at a reasonable hour, which wasn't the case on the fourth try.  I felt great each morning upon awakening, LD or no LD.

----------


## zhineTech

> Hi everyone,
> 
> I am new to these forums and have been reading with interest on this subject, I have been trying to have Lucid dreams for years with very little success, I started over 15 years ago when I bought the Novadreamer, I tried all techniques for about 2 years but only had a handful of lucid dreams and decided that the results weren't worth the effort.
> 
> About a month ago I discovered Thomas Yuschak's book in the ibook store and ordered some Lucid dreamer pills from dreamamins, first night I took one at 4am but nothing happened (too much alcohol the night before I think) some days later took 5htp  at bedtime and pill at 4am, kept me awake for ages and then had a very intense sp but no dreamscape when I got there, last night took a pill at 4am fell asleep for an hour and when I woke up I had 2 sp close to each other but no dream scape to become lucid in.
> 
> Anybody else had this?



i would def not drink the night of a Galantamine attempt.

sleep for at least 4 hours before taking it, you didnt put what time you went to bed.

l-theanine is very helpful for getting back to sleep

----------


## Serenity

> I've had that happen twice... they were actually consecutive tries as well, after the 3 day wait.  Maybe you're stressed or have been slacking on your RCs?  I know I stopped dreaming completely when I was really stressed for a while...
> 
> It's helped before i'm sure it will again.  Maybe give it a week before trying again.
> 
> Good luck.



Actually, yeah, they've all been consecutive. I've also been quite tired and not been practicing as much as I should. Last night, I did my first WBTB in forever, and I also haven't been actively MILDing, which definitely doesn't help.

----------


## Matte87

Just a question, to those who ordered from Dreamamins.com. How long did it take for you to receive the package? I know it's a long way from the US to Sweden, but it's been a while now. And the order says shipped.

----------


## NrElAx

I think it took like 2 or 3 days for mine to arrive. But I might be close to where they're located. It came a lot faster than I expected it to. How long have you been waiting?

----------


## Matte87

The package was sent the 1st of November.

----------


## NrElAx

> The package was sent the 1st of November.



Damn that is a while. Did you try emailing them. I could just take longer because of how far you are and depending on what they used to ship it.

----------


## Matte87

Just got a reply from them. It takes 4-6 weeks for it to arrive. We'll see when it comes hehe. I'm so looking forward to trying it out though, and I will review it here later on.

----------


## Serenity

It took about 2 weeks to get from US to Canada... so I can imagine that it would take twice as long to go overseas! The wait sucks, but it's worth it  :smiley: 

I remember reading somewhere to keep you G/C pills in the fridge... it will extend their potency a little longer.

----------


## Matte87

> It took about 2 weeks to get from US to Canada... so I can imagine that it would take twice as long to go overseas! The wait sucks, but it's worth it 
> 
> I remember reading somewhere to keep you G/C pills in the fridge... it will extend their potency a little longer.



Oh, 60 pills. That's more than a year if I intend to take them only once a week. How long do they last? haha

----------


## Serenity

> How long do they last? haha



I'm not sure, actually!

----------


## Matte87

Got them today! They expire August 2012. So I am safe! Sweet  :smiley:  I will try it out this weekend. It's supposed to be taken at WBTB right?

----------


## NrElAx

Yea take it during a wbtb. I don't think it does much before taking it before bed, except keeping you awake and giving you nightmares

----------


## Matte87

Alright! This is the night before my first attempt. I do have a few more questions.

1: I've been sleeping badly, and haven't recalled more than a few fragments during this week. Should I go for a 4½ hours of WBTB or 6 hours? I aim to sleep for 10-12 hours.

2: During the WBTB. Should I eat something? Or is this pill intended to be taken on an empty stomach?

3: If I wake up after a lucid, and want to write it down instead of trying for a L-DEILD. Will the effect still stay in place as strongly when I go back to sleep?

4: Never tried WILD. Should I go for it? I am physically exhausted! If there's a great chance of doing it, it might be tomorrow. But I really NEED to fall asleep and dream. I'm going crazy here haha! If the WILD fails, will I have problems falling back asleep again, or does it make you kinda sleepy? I have no problems going to sleep normally or falling back asleep.

5: During which time is it best to be taken? I'm thinking of Melatonin levels because of the light. I've been waking up 5.00 AM every day this week. Should I aim to get the WBTB at that time, or an hour before/after 5.00?

I really hope you guys can answer my questions. This is huge for me, and I've been longing for this for a while now! Thanks.

Keep on dreaming!

----------


## Serenity

Ooh, is there an expiry date on them somewhere? I looked, but couldn't find one on mine. I actually think that those Melissa tabs I take might be drowning the G/C. Everytime I take the two combined, it have the WORST experiences (as in, might as well not have wasted a G/C).

I have two trials incoming...

Take the Melissa 1 hour before bedtime, instead of the WBTB... the sleep aid seems to have a very lengthy half life (as opposed to melatonin, which is usually out of my system by the WBTB... when I take the Melissa at WBTB, I'm usually still exhausted by the time I'm meant to wake up for the day).

For instance, last night, I went to bed around 3am. I woke up at 6am to take the Melissa tab, because I needed to sleep past noon (night shift tonight). I even set my lucid weaver to wake me up every 90 minutes for recall notes... I had no troubles in passing out again, and slept easily until I dragged myself out of bed at 1pm.

Second trial, go back to the G/C + 0.5mg of melatonin and see if it's back to acting the way it did before.

----------


## NrElAx

> Alright! This is the night before my first attempt. I do have a few more questions.
> 
> 1: I've been sleeping badly, and haven't recalled more than a few fragments during this week. Should I go for a 4½ hours of WBTB or 6 hours? I aim to sleep for 10-12 hours.
> 
> 2: During the WBTB. Should I eat something? Or is this pill intended to be taken on an empty stomach?
> 
> 3: If I wake up after a lucid, and want to write it down instead of trying for a L-DEILD. Will the effect still stay in place as strongly when I go back to sleep?
> 
> 4: Never tried WILD. Should I go for it? I am physically exhausted! If there's a great chance of doing it, it might be tomorrow. But I really NEED to fall asleep and dream. I'm going crazy here haha! If the WILD fails, will I have problems falling back asleep again, or does it make you kinda sleepy? I have no problems going to sleep normally or falling back asleep.
> ...



1. For me, 4-4 1/2 hours of sleep has always been the best. But you can find what works best for you. I like taking it when I'm really tired.
2. I take it on an empty stomach. I don't even get up during my wbtb. I just take the pills and either fall bacl to sleep or try and wild.
3.If you want to wake up after a dream and write it down, I think it should still work after you fall back asleep. For me, this stuff works from the time I take it(usually 4am or 5am) till I wake up at like 9:30 am. I tend to wake up a lot when I take it, but everytime I wake up, I am able to vild throughout the morning. So it works pretty long for me.
4. If you want to try and wild, I'd say go for it. This stuff made it super easy for me to get into sp(I don't know why). But it is kind of a stimulate, so I usually just take it and fall asleep. But once I fall asleep, I usaully automatically wake up when it kicks in and I'm able to vild or at least get into some sp.

Good luck, I'm gonna take mine tomarrow morning.

----------


## Matte87

Just woke up from taking it. I slept for 6 hours and did a WBTB. Ate some porridge and was lucky to catch a show on TV about dreaming! Got back to bed and didn't fall back asleep right away. When I did, I had 4 dreams within an hour. Had no dreams before that. In the end, I had woken up atleast 4-5 times, and the dreams totaled 13 (4 fragments). 

This was amazing! I am definitely taking it again. Too bad I didn't have a long lucid. I got lucid in one of them, but the dream ended right away, and I got a FA when trying to DEILD...

No side effects either from what I can tell. I also have a memory of having 3 more of those short lucids, which all ended abruptly. But I fell back asleep before I got to write them down, and when I woke up again, I only had the memory of having them... So I'm not sure if I really did haha.

I'll give it a 10/10 when it comes to dreaming, and a 5/10 when it comes to inducing lucids. But I guess I was just unlucky  :smiley:  Will try it next weekend, and tell you guys what happened!

And Serenity: Mine is on the bottom of the bottle.

----------


## NrElAx

Yea If I don't become lucid it gives me some really vivd dreams. I just woke up from my G&C night and it was the same as usual. I actually got lucid right before I woke up to take it and my vibrating alarm was in thew dream. Took me a good 7 minutes to realize what the vibration was haha. I used visualization again and went to three differnt locations. The first time I imagined myself running down a street. I was able to get into the dream like 6 times, but then it would fade. The next location I visualized was my family room. Two time I was able to walk around and picl something up to try and stabalize the dream, but then it would fade away. All the other attempts in this location consisted of me opening ansd closing my sliding door to try and stabalize my dream, but I was like blind. And I also kept trying to get with selina gomez and during one of my attempts in my family room, while I couldn't see at all, I felt a girl on my couch, so figured it was her and we started making out haha. The final location I was at a random house and I stayed lucid the longest in this one, but kept fading in and out of the dream. But I have found out that this stuff allows me to vild everytime I've tried so far. Damn, I really wanted to get with selina gomez haha. Oh, and the reason I woke up during most of those lucids is because.I had somewhat of a bad dream before taking the pills, so during the dreams I kept getting a bad vibe.

----------


## Dr Who

Its been a while since I tried but just had another good LD with my G+Ch combo. Works every time for me which is nice after my very disappointing AA combo failure.

One thing I did notice however was that it seems to me timing is really important and perhaps I've been trying it too early. I normally set my alarm at around 03:30, take my capsule, stay awake for 15 mins and go back to sleep. Usually though I dont have my first LD until a few hours later, around 05:15, so I think next time I'll leave my alarm to around 04:15 or so to see if that makes a difference. I'm a poor LDer, so any LD is good news as far as I'm concerned. It was short but sweet and preceeded, as is almost always the case, by a rocking shifting movement in my body image. That seems to make me conscious and I know what's coming. Its a great feeling as is the anticipation of an LD.

I've just bought a device from the US which I'm going to try out as an LD inducer and once I've given it a go I'll report back. It uses magnetic fields.

----------


## Matte87

Does G+C make you WILD easier? Like, make you sleepy or something? I didn't have time to notice any effects until I fell asleep.

----------


## Dr Who

WILD ? I dream of being able to do that ! As I've said before, I'm such a poor LDer that I've never got close to a WILD. I fall asleep normally with G+C then become conscious when I feel my body image change. I then know a LD is about to happen. Sadly they only ever last about 1 min but I'm working on it !!

----------


## dr1ft

I took G+C after 4 hours of sleep. I couldn't wild, but when I did eventually fall asleep, I had several LDs. G+C makes is difficult to fall asleep, that's why Yushcak (sp??) recommends melatonin (.3 g) in his book.

----------


## SleepyKitty

4 attempts and I could not fall asleep on either of them.  All spaced out 3/4 days if not weeks apart.  I blame my lack of a sleep schedule and willpower ... but was not put off by this lack of success.

3 days ago I tried the G + C + Alpha GPC combo again, worked like a charm  :smiley: 

Multiple lucid instances with 10+ successful RC.


Out of around 30 G + C + Alpha GPC combo attempts i've had 27 successful Lucid Dream nights. (usually more than one LD a night on G)

Thank you again Dream Views for shedding the light on this amazing combo.


Next attempt is tonight... GL everyone.

----------


## Dr Who

Well done. You really need to thank Thomas Yuschak who brought it to our attention....Have a great Christmas all.....and have an LD New Year....

----------


## Matte87

I tried it this weekend with a WBTB of 10 minutes with no effect. I'm sure I didn't put enough effort into it, and didn't have strong intentions. Atleast I had alot of dreams, and that's something  :smiley:  I will do the G+C combo during the holidays atleast two or three more times. Will be back with results!

----------


## SleepyKitty

> Well done. You really need to thank Thomas Yuschak who brought it to our attention....Have a great Christmas all.....and have an LD New Year....



I have tried to personally contact him trhough his email I found in his book.  No dice, his website was down and I felt like i twas abandoned...

Anyone know where he posts his findings now a days?

I failed to WBTB, tomorrow will be fun.

----------


## Ev

I picked up a supplement called "Focus Smart" from CVS (a generic form of FocusFactor). It contains DMAE, choline, vitamin B6 and another acetyl compound. Upon taking it after 3 hours of sleep, I had 3 WILD onsets and was able to re-enter 2 dreams through the application of DEILD/Dream Reentry. I've been using the supplement for about 10 days now and this is my 3rd attempt to take the supplement at night. I'm very excited with this success  :smiley:  

Personally, I like this stuff better than galantamine and choline combination, because G+C gives me really bad intestinal discomfort, plus it's hard to fall asleep with so many expectations  :smiley:

----------


## shooshtime

I've tried G + C 7 times now and 6 out of 7 attempts I have had a lucid dream. The one attempt I did not have a LD it was because I was being a lazy ass and didn't do a full WBTB, I only stayed up for about 5 minutes before going back to sleep. I've found that my perfect wbtb time frame is about 45 minutes while using G + C = ).

----------


## SleepyKitty

> I've tried G + C 7 times now and 6 out of 7 attempts I have had a lucid dream. The one attempt I did not have a LD it was because I was being a lazy ass and didn't do a full WBTB, I only stayed up for about 5 minutes before going back to sleep. I've found that my perfect wbtb time frame is about 45 minutes while using G + C = ).



I find doing reality checks constantly works very well with the G + C combo.  WBTB seems to work incredibly well.

I had another lucid dream with this combo last night, was not in much control but was definately lucid fro a small period of time.

Only stayed up for 15-20 minutes instead of my usual 40-50 with my WBTB.

Will be trying  again in a few days, meanwhile a WBTB will happen tonight.

Meet ya on the moonbase.

----------


## shooshtime

> I find doing reality checks constantly works very well with the G + C combo.  WBTB seems to work incredibly well.
> 
> I had another lucid dream with this combo last night, was not in much control but was definately lucid fro a small period of time.
> 
> Only stayed up for 15-20 minutes instead of my usual 40-50 with my WBTB.
> 
> Will be trying  again in a few days, meanwhile a WBTB will happen tonight.
> 
> Meet ya on the moonbase.



Any lucid is awesome in my opinion, even if it's a simple look at the hands that lets you know you are lucid and wakes you up, it's progress in the right direction =).

----------


## LAJ

Hello, I'm a first time poster.  I tried Galantamine (4 mg) + Choline (650 mg) for the first time this morning (WBTB).  

Had a hard time getting back to sleep.  Felt a little wired.  Ended up lucid through WILD (involuntary).  It was not a pleasant experience.  There was no fear but it felt like I was pushed through a vortex of blackness.  I saw nothing - just blackness.  Then had several FA.  When I woke for real - I felt as if I were having a panic attack, sweaty, dizzy, stomach cramps.  I crawled to the bathroom and almost blacked out on the bathroom floor.  I felt like I was going to throw up - but I didn't.  I did, however, have quite a bit of intestinal discomfort (along with some other symptoms that go along with that).  

Has anyone had this kind of side effect with taking Galantamine?  Will they eventually go away?  

My Lucid history is - several LDs throughout my life.  Significant LD activity this past summer and fall.  I got to where I could finally control my surroundings and activities while LD.  Then about a month ago, it all stopped cold.  So I thought I would try the Galantamine.  But, I don't know if I want to continue with Galantamine if I have these side effects.  Also, the blackness was strange.  It was like I was in limbo - nowhere and totally alone.

I ordered my Galantamine from an online pharmacy called All Day Chemist.
It is a pharmacy in India and you don't need a prescription to order (the website says you do - but you don't).  The Galantamine manufacturer is Sun Pharma.  The cost is $3.75 for 10 tabs (4 mg).  You can order up to 90 days worth of any individual drug from this pharmacy.  They charge a flat rate shipping fee of $25 per order, so I stocked up on other things for cheap (Retin A, Differin Gel, my husbands propecia, etc).  Shipping took about 2 weeks.  I was very satisfied - and clearly the galantamine worked.  The Choline I got from a local Whole Foods (350 mg - I took 2).  

Any insight from you seasoned veterans regarding my side effects, and the vortex of blackness, is much appreciated by this newbie.  Thanks so much!

----------


## SleepyKitty

> Hello, I'm a first time poster.  I tried Galantamine (4 mg) + Choline (650 mg) for the first time this morning (WBTB).



Hi LAJ, it sucks to hear about your negative experience, are you currently feeling all of these side effects? Im glad you shared your experience, maybe you are sensitive to G + C Combo?  This is why we need to be careful!  Almost blacking out seems very odd, I have never read anyone else having this reaction.   My personal experience with Galantamine taken with Choline + L-theanine + Alpha GPC has been positive.  I have only experienced minor stomach trembles, nothing major at all.  Nothing compared to what you've experienced.  The trembles kind of assure me it's time to fall asleep.

Your "limbo" seems like a semi lucid with little or no control.   Not sure why that happened, maybe you were not used to the transition and the G + C combo was to intense?  

I purchased my "lucid dreamer" pills from dreamamins, made in china.  30+ attempts all positive, only about 3 failed attempts.  I hope you can somehow solve this, not sure if you had a bad experience or a bad reaction.

----------


## VincentFreeman

> I purchased my "lucid dreamer" pills from dreamamins, made in china.  30+ attempts all positive, only about 3 failed attempts.  I hope you can somehow solve this, not sure if you had a bad experience or a bad reaction.



Which product did you purchase and use from dreamamins?

----------


## SleepyKitty

> Which product did you purchase and use from dreamamins?



The "Lucid Dreamer" Combo, the standard G + C.

"4mg Galantamine, 200mg Choline"

Here

----------


## zhineTech

> Hello, I'm a first time poster.  I tried Galantamine (4 mg) + Choline (650 mg) for the first time this morning (WBTB).  
> 
> Had a hard time getting back to sleep.  Felt a little wired.  Ended up lucid through WILD (involuntary).  It was not a pleasant experience.  There was no fear but it felt like I was pushed through a vortex of blackness.  I saw nothing - just blackness.  Then had several FA.  When I woke for real - I felt as if I were having a panic attack, sweaty, dizzy, stomach cramps.  I crawled to the bathroom and almost blacked out on the bathroom floor.  I felt like I was going to throw up - but I didn't.  I did, however, have quite a bit of intestinal discomfort (along with some other symptoms that go along with that).  
> 
> Has anyone had this kind of side effect with taking Galantamine?  Will they eventually go away?



i had similar experiences the first time, though not as bad. once i added l-theanine into the combo it made it possible to go back to sleep easily.

it also depends on how long you stay awake and when you take it. i take it right as im going btb, so i can fall asleep before it kicks in. often, its still a WILD, i dont even feel like ive fallen asleep, i get out of bed and BAM! i realize its a dream.

i think that might be too much choline as well. its known to cause diarrhea and cramping. i take about 400mg.

i use the dreamamins lucid dreamer pills as well.

good luck and try again with less choline.

----------


## SleepyKitty

Last two attempts were not very fulfilling.  I did have a LD, I saw my hands but only for a split second.  I believe smoking cannabis before bed is not helping me much.  Need to take another T-Break to experience another 30 minute LD.

The dreams were amazing, extremely vivid.  Fun.

----------


## alwayson

First time I used galantamine (Galantamind) last night after four hours of sleep.  

BIG FAIL.

I just couldn't go back to sleep.  

And that was surprising because I was really tired.

Should I add theanine?  If so at what time do you take theanine?

----------


## SleepyKitty

> First time I used galantamine (Galantamind) last night after four hours of sleep.  
> 
> BIG FAIL.
> 
> I just couldn't go back to sleep.  
> 
> And that was surprising because I was really tired.
> 
> Should I add theanine?  If so at what time do you take theanine?



Wow, that pill sure has a lot of other stuff in it!


I would definitely take L-theanine, it helps me relax.  Without it I have about a 50/50 shot of staying up.

I have stayed up on G about 5 times now, all because I could not get back to sleep.  Sometimes it depends on your mindset.

Also, don't think of it as a big fail, you attempted, next time will be easier.

----------


## zhineTech

> I just couldn't go back to sleep.  
> 
> And that was surprising because I was really tired.
> 
> Should I add theanine?  If so at what time do you take theanine?



yes, L-theanine really helped me. see my post above. 

and make sure you really cant go back to sleep, that you arent actually already asleep. one time i "couldn't get back to sleep" and went for a walk, thinking about how the G was making it hard for me to sleep when i discovered i was at a park filled with ballerinas in the middle of the night... cause i was dreaming!

----------


## Matte87

Didn't manage to get lucid last time I took it and I'm not sure I had enough intentions this time either. Had had 3 days in a row with lucids so. It gives me long dreams though.

----------


## r2d2651

Are these vitamins worth it??

----------


## Intuition

I have a question about what pills are required. I've been reading that you should have a combo of G & C, and I was wondering - if I bought Galantamind or Dreamamin's "Lucid Dreamer" pill, would I be required to also buy Choline pills as well? Choline's supplied through both of these brands' pills, but are the amounts (200mg) sufficient? 

To the user who spoke of CVS' Focus Smart tablets, have you had any more experience using this? Has anyone else out there used this, and can compare it to the other tablets I mentioned? It's less expensive than Galantamind and Dreamamin.

----------


## shooshtime

> I have a question about what pills are required. I've been reading that you should have a combo of G & C, and I was wondering - if I bought Galantamind or Dreamamin's "Lucid Dreamer" pill, would I be required to also buy Choline pills as well? Choline's supplied through both of these brands' pills, but are the amounts (200mg) sufficient? 
> 
> To the user who spoke of CVS' Focus Smart tablets, have you had any more experience using this? Has anyone else out there used this, and can compare it to the other tablets I mentioned? It's less expensive than Galantamind and Dreamamin.



The Lucid Dreamer pills already have enough choline for your needs so you should be all set.

----------


## shooshtime

> Are these vitamins worth it??



I'd say 100% yes as a booster for LD's. Out of about 12 tries with the pills, i've had about an 90% success rate and every time I have not had a lucid dream I have had some amazing vivid dreams and also did not do my full WBTB which I believe is the only reason those few times did not get me lucid. I feel pretty much 100% confident every time I try my G & C combo i'm going to have a lucid dream and even if the pills really didn't work, that confidence in my opinion is worth far more than the pills are.

----------


## NrElAx

> Are these vitamins worth it??



I personally think the G&C combo is definatly worth it, but I wouldn't depend on it all the time. I would say it might be good if you are having trouble getting your first lucid and feel like giving up or you are having a dry spell. I have to buy some more since I took a 2 month break. The good thing about this stuff for me, was that even if I didn't go lucid, usually I would go into sp, so I felt like it did something. Which is good enough for me since its hard for me to get into sp with out the pills.

----------


## r2d2651

Okay.. But what if I'm 15 years old?...

----------


## NrElAx

> Okay.. But what if I'm 15 years old?...



I think it should be fine if your 15. I mean personally I don't get any side effects but others do. There also isn't really any long term studies on the pills and they aren't FDA approved like a lot of stuff isn't too. But I mean its good for you memory and helps people who have alziemers so if you want to try it, then go for it. You can see what other people say too.

----------


## r2d2651

So my mother may let me purchase the Lucid Dreamer combo, what are the instructions for maximum effectiveness?

----------


## NrElAx

Just start off with one pill and see if that works, if not then bump up to taking two pills. Two pills should definatly work so you shouldn't take three. and try and take this stuff only twice a week because if you take it too much, you will get a tolerance towards it. Oh and some people say that taking Alpha GPC with the galantamine and choline makes it work even better, but I haven't tried it enough to decide if that true. But I believe the other people who say it helps a lot

----------


## zhineTech

do them with a wbtb, not at night.

----------


## NrElAx

^^yea don't forget to do that to. It won't work if you take it before bed. People say they get nightmares if they take it at bed time

----------


## Lynn

I think I could try that, but I'm only going to do it once, I'm not into taking pills alot, even for lucid dreaming.

----------


## SleepyKitty

Another fun filled success.  I stopped smoking cannabis 3 days ago and my dream recall has been ridiculous!  From 1-3 dreams recalled per night to 7-8!  But that's another thread.

The first night I stopped smoking I had a decent Natural LD.  Was pretty cool but failed to stabilize enough and wondered off.

Last night I had a great success with G+C.  WBTB after 4 hour of sleep and took my pills.  Fell asleep after about 2 hours.  Couldn't get the mindset to fall asleep.  Finally feeling tired i crashed out.  I knew  the combo was sill in my system and it worked great on my first dream.  Had remarkable control and clarity not seen while under cannabis.  Everything was much more "real" than before.  

Good times.

__________________________________________________ _

Before Sleep: 2mg Melatonin  + 100mg 5-HTP

WBTB: 8mg Galantamine + 400mg of Choline + 600mg of ALPHA-GPC +  100mg of L-Theanine (<--for sleep aid)

After LD Attempt: 2400mg Piracetam

Results: 30 Lucid Dreams NIGHTS out of 35 Attempts  (3  attempts that failed were not WBTB induced)
__________________________________________________ _

----------


## NrElAx

> I think I could try that, but I'm only going to do it once, I'm not into taking pills alot, even for lucid dreaming.



I'd say try it twice because it didn't work for me the first time. But if it works the first time, then you can just do it twice. I just love the stuff because my experience is always different and I go through such fascinating sleep paralysis. I only had one bad experience during sleep paralysis.

----------


## tulamidan

Apparently dreamamins.com stopped selling their G+C product... could someone suggest me a different supplier and/or a different product that I can get shipped to europe?

----------


## NrElAx

> Apparently dreamamins.com stopped selling their G+C product... could someone suggest me a different supplier and/or a different product that I can get shipped to europe?



Are they just not shipping it to europe or they not selling it anymore? If they stoped selling it than that sucks because they were cheaper. You can always get galantamind but its more expensive.

----------


## tulamidan

Well they said:
> we no longer have this product in stock

Not saying if they gonna get it back. But apparently it's not a shipping problem. The two others are still available. But I'd like a combined product with Choline to safe money on the shipping and b) it was quite cheap anyway...

----------


## NrElAx

> Well they said:
> > we no longer have this product in stock
> 
> Not saying if they gonna get it back. But apparently it's not a shipping problem. The two others are still available. But I'd like a combined product with Choline to safe money on the shipping and b) it was quite cheap anyway...



Yea they'll probably get it back. Hopefully because I was just about to buy some soon and they're cheap. Yea the other two kinds they have won't work as well because they don't have choline in it. And the one with melatonin in it isn't good because that will supress your rem if you were to take it during a wbtb.

----------


## Dr Who

I got mine from here:Brain Health Supplements Cognitive Enhancers Nootropics Smart Drugs

----------


## tulamidan

That seem fine as well... and it has the Alpha GPC included... the Cholin is easier to get without prescription (as I just figured out I get it here pretty easy and reasonably priced)
Can the memeron be split? 8mg seems a bit too much for a start...

----------


## NrElAx

> I got mine from here:Brain Health Supplements Cognitive Enhancers Nootropics Smart Drugs



Did you get the galantamine and alpha gpc combo. Well I think that's the only choice hahah. That's an interesting combination because people usually say mixing alpha gpc with the G&C combo is really good. But I wonder if just mixing galantamine and alpha gpc would be better since alpha gpc crosses the BBB.

----------


## ethan_hines

Ok so guys I ordered "Galntimine" 8mg and I took it after 4 hrs of sleep and nothing.....am I doing something wrong? I didn't stay awake too long I just took the "Galmatimine" which has coline included so I don't know It doesn't seem to be working for me? I am on Effexor/Webutrin for depression is this screwing up the Aceltecololine in my BBB? should I give the Galatimind a try w/o the the efffexor/webutin? I'm tired of going to sleep w/o any proper REM to report..maybe I should go with the electronic version you know like

----------


## tulamidan

Heya
Seems like you didn't finish your last sentence  :wink2: 
Anout the rest: I've read from people where the stuff kicked in the second time. But anyway there are so many factors involved and the Meds you take can easily be a factor. However I wouldn't recommend to just drop them without talking to you doc. As well these kind of meds are supposed to change you brain chemistry on the long term... I doubt that dropping them for a day has much effect.

----------


## NrElAx

Yea the galantamine didn't work for me till the second time and I also just took 8mg because 4mg wasn't doing much.

----------


## LSDreamer

I read like 15 pages of this thread.  And am thinking about getting the setup from dreamamins. Someone said they are out of stock, can anyone confirm/deny.  Has anyone mixed with dream herb? Aka Calea z?

----------


## anderj101

> I read like 15 pages of this thread.  And am thinking about getting the setup from dreamamins. Someone said they are out of stock, can anyone confirm/deny.  Has anyone mixed with dream herb? Aka Calea z?



I did and had quite nice results.  Personally, I don't do it any more than once a month, and usually save it for a dry spell.  I find becoming lucid quite easy, but control is a bit of a challenge.

----------


## Lost_prophet

It says to take it once every three days. How long should you take it before taking a break for a week?

----------


## dr1ft

> It says to take it once every three days. How long should you take it before taking a break for a week?



That's up to you. Several people have taken in continuously for months (every 3 days or so). It's probably not a bad idea to take a couple of weeks off once in a while.

----------


## NrElAx

I'd say take it only about twice a week. I haven't taken it in about two months, but before I screwed up my tolerance by taking it too much. So watch out for that.

----------


## OwlDreamz

I am anxiously awaiting my delivery of 4mg Galantamine caps. 
It's harder to get this stuff over here in Germany - for the Galantamine I had to pay 30 in shipping alone. Gah. I really hope it works. 
It's taken me a few days to read through this whole thread but I think I'm well prepared now. My plan is to take 5-HTP before bed then 4 hours of sleep, wake up and take one Galantamine with the Choline I got on amazon.  I will for sure post my results, good or bad. And if any of you know a good European supplier for Germany (that doesn't cost bazillions of Euros), do please let me know!

----------


## dr1ft

If it helps, I have about 80% success rate (10 out of 13) with Galantamind and Choline (and sometimes other things, such as L-Dopa, and Alpha-GPC). The times I failed I attribute to not following the procedure and not listening to my body (was too tired, stressed out, etc.).

Good luck to you!

----------


## OwlDreamz

Woohoo I have my Galantamine in my hot little hands as we speak  :boogie: 
So if all goes well I will take it tonight. Have to make sure the conditions are perfect and such. Fingers so crossed... it's going to be very difficult not to be really damn excited.
Will of course post my results, good or bad or just plain ugly!

----------


## tulamidan

Got mine yesterday and had a go. Took some B complex and Mg before going to bed, woke up 6h after and took Memeron (8mg Galantamine, 600mg Alpha-GPC) and back to bed.
But I didn't sleep very well, woke up often and don't even think I dreamed much at all... despite having any LD. Well they often say that the fist go is not very successful.
I'll wait 3 days befor taking my next one (this is what is suggested to avoid building up a tolerance)
However I feel a bit woozy in my head today I feel that I can focus a lot better.

----------


## dr1ft

I have a hard time going back to sleep too. I am going to use 200mg Theanine next time along with the galantamine.

----------


## anderj101

If you take some Piracetam in the morning, it will counter the slightly hungover feeling.

----------


## OwlDreamz

Well tulamidan I'm with you. No dice here. Here's what I did:

- Slept from midnight until just before 5am, after taking 5HTP. Sleep wasn't that sound.
- Woke up and went to the loo
- Took 4mg Galantamine and 223mg Choline
- Ate a banana
- Back to bed to read for a few minutes
- Put on some brain waves and lay on my back for about 15 minutes, then turned over onto my right side

What I felt was very similar to what I feel when I try to WILD. Lots of floaty and spinny kinda feelings and sometimes slight fuzzy vibes that disappear as soon as they are noticed. After about an hour and half of entertaining these feelings I gave up and lay on my stomach. Fell asleep and had a only half remembered dream that was distinctly sexual in nature, but I can't remember any details.
All in all a very disappointing experience. I could not get the brain chatter to stop, and I think that might have been part of the problem, coupled with a feeling of my brain having a slight case of ADD.

What I will change:

- Will try it in 3 days on (hopefully) some better sleep without the 5HTP
- Will up the dose to 8mg
- Will be staying on my back this time and trying to meditate to stop the ADD brain chatter

----------


## Lost_prophet

What would happen/how would I feel if I took this combo for an afternoon nap??

----------


## anderj101

> What would happen/how would I feel if I took this combo for an afternoon nap??



Never thought of that before, but I imagine it would work.  I'll have to try it sometime.  Some of my best lucids are during afternoon naps.

----------


## NrElAx

> What would happen/how would I feel if I took this combo for an afternoon nap??



I think it might be hard to get to sleep, but you can give it a shot if you want.

----------


## OwlDreamz

> What would happen/how would I feel if I took this combo for an afternoon nap??



I seem to remember someone in this thread saying that the G+C combo should only be taken after 4 or 5 hours of sleep. The reasoning escapes me now, and re reading 28 pages of thread isn't appealing, so I'm not really sure what the reasoning is. Maybe that was just in response to the question of taking the combo before bed.  ::whyme:: 
But hey, Lost_prophet, I'm curious to see if it works out to take it after naps. If you test it out, please post your results.

----------


## Magus2003

Hi All,

Just joined this fascinating forum.

I have had many lucids/astral experiences in the past and have just recently came across 'advanced lucid dreaming' book and it got me interested again.

I now have all the supplements I need to start.
The other day I just used choline 350mg, and that on its own caused me to have 3 lucids and very interesting they were as well, but they were short.

The Galantamine just arrived the other day, came from dreamamins in the USA, and whilst I am in the UK, the customes got hold of the package and slapped another £11.00/$19.00 on top... I was not too happy about that...

Anyway, thought I would try the Galantamine last night and ended up being dissapointed.
Just to let you know, I had taken some Piracetam the day before at about 15:00 hours, so do not know if that had anything to do with it not working?

I woke up at 5am and took the Galantamine 4mg and choline 350mg at 5:30am.
I went back to sleep at just after 6am.
I noticed some, what I would call astral body movements, but that was all. On the day I used choline alone, my astral/dream body just lifted up from my legs and was still only attached by my head, so I relaxed and let that go as well, what followed was a fuzzy blackness that moved me into the dream world and the images appeared.
However, back to last night. a few movements and that was all. I must of then promply fell asleep and when I woke up, all I could remember was some very distant and feint dream memories that really amounted to nothing at all. I felt slightly dizzy, disorientated and took 2400mg of Piracetam and these symptons vanished in about an hour.

Anway...

Anyone got any idea, why I got nothing from this?
Did I fall asleep too soon, or is there something else wrong with my system?
Does it make any difference to up the dosage of Galantamine?

Thanks for your help...

I will try again next Tuesday...

Paul...

----------


## dr1ft

According to Yuschak, Piracetam reduces reduces chances of lucid dreams. It stays in the system for about 24 hours. So it's certainly possible the Piracetam interfered.

This morning, I took 8mg GM and 400mg choline with 600mg Apha GPC and 200mg L-Theanine. This was after a 4 day break. Prior to taking the supplements, I had been awake for about 45 minutes for some chores. 

I did some self-affirmations while falling asleep but nothing major. 

As a result, I had 1.5 hours of lucid dreams: some vague, some clear, some short, some long. The longest one probably lasted about 15-30 minutes (it's hard to tell in the dream world).

My procedure after taking the supplements:
When I notice I am in sleep paralysis, I focus on the third eye (center of forehead), which makes the SP vibrations stronger. Then, I attempt to "leave my body" (figuratively speaking) by imagining rolling over and getting up. This produces a vague feeling of moving about and as soon as that happens, I strengthen the feeling by doing some stability exercises, such as looking at hands, rubbing hands, and feeling the wall or furniture (quick feelings, I don't linger on one thing too long). By this time, I am firmly in the dream world and then I do whatever I want to. If a dream starts to destabilize, I do the same exercises again. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. 

(I found these exercises from reading Michael Raduga's free book (Free book on the right hand side of Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)).

Some days are better than others. In the 14 attempts I have made so far with Galantamine, I have succeeded (at least 1 lucid dream lasting even a few seconds) in 11 -- that's an 80% rate.

Of that, so far I have experienced about 3 excellent lucid dream nights, where the dreams last for an hour or more and I am in good control. 

Galantamine is not an on/off button. It still takes practice and self-affirmations. From looking at my dream journal, I realize that the length, quality, and my control of lucid dreams have increased substantially.

Good luck!

----------


## Lost_prophet

I took Galantamind (Galantamine, Choline, B5) for the first time this morning on a WBtB. I'm not sure if it would be considered a WILD or a DILD, but next thing I knew I was laying in my bed. I was fairly certain I was dreaming and did a reality check to verify.

Not only was that a lucid dream, but I had two more after that. I probably LD'd for about 45 minutes straight. It got to the point where I spent so much time LDing that I could already tell that I was losing some memory of my earlier dream(s). I've never had more than one per sleep occasion. If this is a placebo effect, than I might be able to cure cancer if you told me the pill did so.

----------


## anderj101

> Not only was that a lucid dream, but I had two more after that. I probably LD'd for about 45 minutes straight.



Very nice!  Sounds like my second G+C experience.

----------


## Rozollo

I took a dose of Galantamind during a WBtB on Friday night.  Can I do another dose tonight?  I try to limit it to weekends, and I don't work Mondays.

----------


## NrElAx

Yea I'd say you can take it again. But try not to take it to close together. You can do it a few times, but once you start doing it a lot. You'll build a tolerance like you've probably heard.

----------


## Rozollo

That was my fear.  Awesome.  Any suggestions on timing my WBtB?  I woke up after about 5 hours last time, took it, and was still a bit too alert and had to focus too much on falling asleep.  Last night I did a WBtB but I went to sleep too fast (after about 4ish hours). I think 4 and half would be a good spot to try tonight.

----------


## NrElAx

> That was my fear.  Awesome.  Any suggestions on timing my WBtB?  I woke up after about 5 hours last time, took it, and was still a bit too alert and had to focus too much on falling asleep.  Last night I did a WBtB but I went to sleep too fast (after about 4ish hours). I think 4 and half would be a good spot to try tonight.



Your probably already asleep, but, yea 4 1/2 hrs of sleep was my sweet spot. I hate when theat happens. You wake up like 5 hours after sleep, but for some reason your like hella awake.

----------


## OwlDreamz

I woke up today at 4:30am and took my G+C combo - 8mg+235mg respectively at around 5am. Went back to bed after eating a slice of cheese.

I have to consider this attempt a failure because though it felt somewhat promising, my punk kids woke up at around 5:30ish and disturbed the whole thing, so I couldn't continue (shakes a fist at said kids). I had to wake up then, and man was it a strange feeling to be awake on that stuff.

Exhausted, at around  11:30am I managed to steal a 2 hour nap while the kids slept. I tried a sort of WILD thing, trying to remain conscious with "1 I am dreaming.. 2 I am dreaming" as sleep came, but I found I was going in and out of remembering which number I was at. That happened about 3 times.
Then, in my dream, which was very very sexual in feeling, I gained some slight lucidity just before and during a really intense climax. I felt I had the choice to be lucid or go along with the dream at the time. I chose to be lucid, _but go along with it._ Thinking back on it now it was really strange as it wasn't a sexual scene, nor sexual things happening, but the feeling was there. 

After the climax I sort of lost my lucidity and dreamed a little while longer before waking up. So I guess it was a half success, with a pretty nice side benefit included!

*copying this to my dream journal

----------


## dr1ft

It's progress! See if you can do it earlier in the night?

My first few attempts were like that.

----------


## NrElAx

Yea If you don't have any success the first time, don't get frustrated. It might take a couple tries for it to work. And if 4 mg isn't working for someone, then try 8 mg, that's what I use. But never take 12 mg because t will screw up your tolerance. If you do it, only try it once and never do it again.

----------


## LSDreamer

Anyone know where to get Choline? I had to switch my order over to Dreamscape today because Lucid Dreamer isnt in stock.  So now I need to find a good Choline + anything to fill in.  I am looking for something along the line of Choline + B vitamins or Choline + Apha GPC and L-Theanine. Anything would help, thanks  :smiley:

----------


## anderj101

> Anyone know where to get Choline?



I bought mine from soap.com Here's a direct link.  Not sure if you're in the USA, but GNC or Vitamin Shoppe may have it also.

----------


## LSDreamer

So according to Wiki  :smiley: 

L-Alpha Glycerylphosphorylcholine (Alpha GPC, choline alfoscerate) is a natural choline compound found in the brain and in milk. It is also a parasympathomimetic acetylcholine precursor[1] which may have potential for the treatment of Alzheimer's disease and is used as a nootropic dietary supplement to enhance memory and cognition.

Alpha GPC rapidly delivers choline to the brain across the blood-brain barrier and is a biosynthetic precursor of the acetylcholine neurotransmitter.[2] Alpha GPC is derived from highly purified soy lecithin.


Does this mean that Alpha GPC = Choline, and that by taking Lucid Dreamer + Alpha GPC you would be taking a real lot of choline?  Not sure how things work and I will do more research myself but.  As of now I have Dreamscape purchased from dreamamins and it doesnt have choline in it.  So would pairing the link that anderj101 gave with the Dreamscape be the best choice?   Also thoughts on Irwin Naturals Ginkgo Smart Focus & Memory Support Softgels

----------


## NrElAx

I take 300mg of Alpha GPC with the G&C combo and its fine. It just gives you and even better chance for an LD since it crosses the BBB better than choline alone.

----------


## Lost_prophet

Do you build tolerance faster?

----------


## anderj101

I've been taking the Lucid Dreamer G+C combo about once monthly for the last 6 months and have noticed that the intensity is different every time.  I'm considering opening all the remaining capsules, thoroughly mixing it all together, then redistributing the contents back into the capsules.  I'm suspicious that some of the capsules may have little to no G in them, and others are mega-loaded.

Has anyone else noticed inconsistencies with the effects?

----------


## NrElAx

I never noticed any potency difference in my lucid dreaming pills. The only time it felt weaker was when I wasn't taking long breaks in between dosing.

----------


## Magus2003

Well, tried the Choline and galantamine again last night, 2nd time.
Took it at 5am, went back to sleep at 6:10am. Did not get to sleep till about 6:40am.

Had several lucid episodes but none of them seemed as clear as the naturally produced ones.

I appeared in a bedroom once with a large bookcase by the window. When I tried to move, I woke up.
I then appeared by a sink  in a bedroom, looking at the base of the sink, I managed to get the detail really clear, as I moved my vision to see the rest of the room… I woke up.

All of them seemed to be in a semi-lucid state/dream and nothing substantial.

So whilst this time was a success as such, it did not produce anything thing of any duration, all being about less than a minute in length.

So was not really impressed.

I seemed to have better lucidity on the choline on its own, when I tried that. However, I have tried the choline again on its own and nothing.
I guess its all about timing.

Any one got any ideas how I can improve this experience for my next try which will be Friday morning?

Maybe I should take it a little earlier, say 4am. But the only trouble with that is my partner gets up early and has to be in work at 6am, so it would all be disrupted from 5am onwards for at least an hour.

----------


## dr1ft

Magus, try taking it at 5:30 or even 6:00.

I get the semi-lucid state too sometimes. Not sure how to counter it. Some days are better than others.

----------


## Lost_prophet

> I never noticed any potency difference in my lucid dreaming pills. The only time it felt weaker was when I wasn't taking long breaks in between dosing.



How often were you taking them?

----------


## Magus2003

> Magus, try taking it at 5:30 or even 6:00.
> 
> I get the semi-lucid state too sometimes. Not sure how to counter it. Some days are better than others.



Hi,

I actually tried taking it at 5:30 last week and got nothing, but that may have been due to the piracetam the day earlier?

I will try again.

Thing is I will generally have to get up about 9am, so is that enough time?

 :Sad:

----------


## NrElAx

> How often were you taking them?



I was taking it about twice a week. It lost it potency when I started taking it like every other day. Which wasn't good hahah.

----------


## Lost_prophet

So, if I wait 3 or 4 days between doses, will I build I tolerance at all?

----------


## NrElAx

Yeah you should be cool waiting that many days. I think it takes like 2 days to get fully out of your system, so thats why they suggest to wait a few days. But, yea once or twice a week is fine.

----------


## OwlDreamz

3rd attempt and still no real success with the G+C combo. I think it's mostly because with the 8mg dose of G, I really need L-Theanine to help me sleep after taking it, which I don't have. I have ordered more G for future use, I'm not giving up on it, but for now I think I will stop trying awhile. 

It's obvious to me that this will not be my miracle break through pill, that I have to do more work on dream recall and perhaps gain regular lucidity naturally first, then come back to G+C. I bet these supplements work nicely to help some people to attain their lucidity, too bad I'm just not one of them. 
Oh well, Rome was not built in a day.

----------


## tulamidan

Dito... tried it last night for the second time and had the same buggered sleep. Even though I've had a dream that I could recall nicely and with a half way decent vividness I a)couldn't get lucid and b) woke up soon after without beeing able to get back to sleep. Tried various MP3 and eventually got up beeing fed up and tired.
Kepp me postet how your success with the L-Theanin is and where you got it. Looks like we have some trouble here in europe to get supplements :/
Well I found a BodyBuilding shop wher I could get some amico acid blend with 28mg Tryptophan per capsule (among others)
Does anyone know the recommended dosage? The Wiki recomends this to improve the odds of getting lucid, however makes sleeping even more difficult. Well didn't find l-theanin yet... except of getting it online which apparently even works from amazon (.de)

----------


## Jules2007

Yeah Galantamine does keep you wide awake for a long time. It typically takes me about 2 hours to get to sleep after it (but it shouldn't take everyone this long as I sleep for way too long regularly so I'm never tired) but it's well worth it for me. I made another post about not having the greatest lucid dreams, but out of all of them, my ones with Galantamine and Choline have been by far the best. I take it on days when I can expect to have at least 10 hours sleep so it really doesn't matter that it takes me so long to get back to sleep-other than being annoying.

The only problem I'm getting with the Galantamine is recently it's kind of giving me head rushes and making me feel a bit weird as I'm going to sleep. I've been taking it for ages now and not noticed it before but now it's quite odd. It sometimes makes me feel like I'm about to experience Sleep Paralysis but I always fight it even though I know it's harmless. Next time I'm going to try and see if I can ride it out and end up with a WILD.

Has anyone having trouble sleeping considered adding a bit of melatonin to the Gal and Chol? There are Galantamine and Melatonin capsules you can take-I just took two this morning and it usually gives very long and vivid dreams-not always lucid as much as the choline combination, but great dreams anyway. Usually helps you sleep a lot better. 

So far the Galantamine still works a treat after taking it for more than a year twice a week.

----------


## OwlDreamz

> Dito... tried it last night for the second time and had the same buggered sleep. Even though I've had a dream that I could recall nicely and with a half way decent vividness I a)couldn't get lucid and b) woke up soon after without beeing able to get back to sleep. Tried various MP3 and eventually got up beeing fed up and tired.
> Kepp me postet how your success with the L-Theanin is and where you got it. Looks like we have some trouble here in europe to get supplements :/
> Well I found a BodyBuilding shop wher I could get some amico acid blend with 28mg Tryptophan per capsule (among others)
> Does anyone know the recommended dosage? The Wiki recomends this to improve the odds of getting lucid, however makes sleeping even more difficult. Well didn't find l-theanin yet... except of getting it online which apparently even works from amazon (.de)



Yuck, I'm sorry you're in the same situation as me. And yes, for sure it's hard to get supplements here, especially in Germany I find. It makes me so angry. I have found the L-Theanine on Amazon as well, just haven't ordered it yet. The one I found on Amazon is:

L-Theanine 100 mg 60 veg. Kapseln PT
von ProThera Inc.
EUR 23,95

Is that the one you were looking at too? As for dosage, I believe it's somewhere in this thread, I will have to look through it's many many pages again.. lol 
If you get your hands on the L-Theanine and try it out, please let us know how it goes, tulamidan.





> Has anyone having trouble sleeping considered adding a bit of melatonin to the Gal and Chol? There are Galantamine and Melatonin capsules you can take-I just took two this morning and it usually gives very long and vivid dreams-not always lucid as much as the choline combination, but great dreams anyway. Usually helps you sleep a lot better. 
> 
> So far the Galantamine still works a treat after taking it for more than a year twice a week.



I wanted to try with Melatonin, but unfortunately it's perscription only here in Germany ( :Pissed: ), and therefor getting it is bloody expensive because you have to pay shipping on it as well. So it's in the same league as Galantamine. I've seen that dreamamins or whatever it's called has a G pill that has some melatonin in it - maybe one day when I'm feeling flush I will order that. 

More than twice a week for more than a year? Wow, Jules, respect. Do you use Piracetam as well, to counter the side effects and stop building a tolerance? Piracemtam is yet another thing I have trouble getting here. Grr. GRR I TELL YOU!

----------


## Lost_prophet

I've taken the Galantamine/Choloine/B5 combo twice now. A combined total of 4 lucid dreams between the two doses.

----------


## NrElAx

> I've taken the Galantamine/Choloine/B5 combo twice now. A combined total of 4 lucid dreams between the two doses.



Congrats! Yeah I love this stuff. Most of my lucids are from it, except for 2 dilds. It really helped me get going on lucid dreaming.

----------


## OwlDreamz

> Well I found a BodyBuilding shop wher I could get some amico acid blend with 28mg Tryptophan per capsule (among others)
> Does anyone know the recommended dosage? The Wiki recomends this to improve the odds of getting lucid, however makes sleeping even more difficult. Well didn't find l-theanin yet... except of getting it online which apparently even works from amazon (.de)



Hmm.. tryptophan is useful but you might as well get some 5-HTP instead, according to this thread. I got my 5-HTP on Amazon.

As for L-Theanine I found this from dodobird for dosage:





> 100-200mg of L-Theanine may help too.




And hey congrats on the continued success, Lost_prophet!

----------


## Magus2003

Well, better results last night.
Before I went to bed I took some Mucuna pruriens, and this helped my dream recall no end. I even woke up only 30 mins after falling asleep to recall a quick dream. I thought it was a bit early but, hey who knows.

For those that seem to be getting nothing from the Galantamine/Choline, try some Mucuna pruriens, as dopamine is needed for dreaming and it seemed to help last night.

Took 4mg Galantamine and 2 x Choline 350mg (half an hour apart).
Doubling the choline like this seems to have done the job.
I had many vivid dreams, much more than normal.
I had one sp moment, when I heard my partner (Who had already gone to work) come in through the front door, drop her coat by the door and then climb the stairs and came into the bedroom. She then got in the bed beside me. I asked if she was alright (As she only comes home when she is ill), she said 'yeah' and that was that. I opened my eyes and she was not there...

Few other things happened, but did not try to wild today as I just wanted to go with the flow to see that would happen.
At one point I became semi-lucid in a dream and was walking down a path by a park. As I got to the end of the road, I stood on a paving stone that sunk under my weight and water started rising above it! I jumped off quick and was alright. I went into the park to see two lads walking past me with a can of petrol and matches and felt that they were up to no good, it then went into a dream....

Lots of other things. I can’t remember them all.

Got some 5htp today for next try.

Will try again next Tuesday.

----------


## Magus2003

Also forgot to say, doubling the choline seemed to cause less of a hangover from the Galantamine this time.
Took 3x800mg of piracetam to counter it after I woke up.

----------


## dr1ft

Good progress, Magus, congrats  :smiley: 

I have Mucuna Pruriens -- does your smell bad?? Mine smells really weird so I've been hesitant to take it. The closest approximation in terms of smell that I can think of is silicone sealant. 

Yuschak raved about Mucuna Pruriens in his book so I was really excited.

----------


## Magus2003

> Good progress, Magus, congrats 
> 
> I have Mucuna Pruriens -- does your smell bad?? Mine smells really weird so I've been hesitant to take it. The closest approximation in terms of smell that I can think of is silicone sealant. 
> 
> Yuschak raved about Mucuna Pruriens in his book so I was really excited.



Hi dr1ft,

No my Mucuna Pruriens does not smell bad at all. All I can smell is the gell caps. Got mine from amazon. Swansons.

----------


## Matte87

I like the G+C combo, but you guys have to realise it's just a tool to help you get lucid. You can't solely rely on the pill for it to work (even though the placebo might be enough to get you lucid). I've taken it without any big intentions and I haven't gotten lucid. When I really want to lucid and believe I will, my WBTB's almost never fail. Don't up the dose just because it didn't work one time, it's not a magical pill even though it sure does help. 

Wait three days between attempts. Don't rely on it too much. After each time I get lucid off the combo, I tell myself I have to get lucid naturally before I do the combo again. I think that's healthier and better for your natural abilities.

----------


## Jules2007

> I wanted to try with Melatonin, but unfortunately it's perscription only here in Germany (), and therefor getting it is bloody expensive because you have to pay shipping on it as well. So it's in the same league as Galantamine. I've seen that dreamamins or whatever it's called has a G pill that has some melatonin in it - maybe one day when I'm feeling flush I will order that. 
> 
> More than twice a week for more than a year? Wow, Jules, respect. Do you use Piracetam as well, to counter the side effects and stop building a tolerance? Piracemtam is yet another thing I have trouble getting here. Grr. GRR I TELL YOU!



Hiya, I think the Melatonin is prescription only here in the UK aswell. Yeah I have both my galantamine and choline and galantamine and melatonin from Dreamamins and it is very expensive, on top of the price I have to pay a customs fee aswell which is a lot.
So after I'm done with my current stock I might give it a rest for a while.

 Yeah I use Piracetam quite a bit to stop building the tolerance-not every time but most times. I had a bit of trouble getting hold of all of the supplements I have (Galantamine combo-know where to get it from but hella expensive, GPC, Yohimbe, Mucuna Pruriens, Piracetam-yeah I think I got pretty much everything mentioned in Yuschaks book!) So I know how hard it is to get hold of the stuff.

I take a rest of a week or two here and there but other than that I do take it pretty regularly and it has about a 90% lucid success rate for me.

----------


## Rozollo

I take the Galantamind which has Pantothenic Acid (as calciusm pantothenate) at 100 MG, Galantamine hydrobromide extract 4mg, and Choline 200mg.  Would I benefit from taking another choline supplement + B5 with this pill during a WBTB?  My two experiments yielded extremely vivid dreams, but the dreams still weren't longer than usual or anything like that in hindsight.

----------


## NrElAx

> I take the Galantamind which has Pantothenic Acid (as calciusm pantothenate) at 100 MG, Galantamine hydrobromide extract 4mg, and Choline 200mg.  Would I benefit from taking another choline supplement + B5 with this pill during a WBTB?  My two experiments yielded extremely vivid dreams, but the dreams still weren't longer than usual or anything like that in hindsight.



Try out Alpha GPC. Its a type of choline that crosses the BBB better.

----------


## Matte87

From my own experience. I get lucid within the hour after falling asleep after taking the pill. If I don't fall asleep before the pill starts to go into my system, it will take quite some time to do so. Also when I wake up after the dream, I usually have a hard time falling back asleep. Tried for almost an hour today but decided to give up.

----------


## Mrsf0011

anyone know a reliable website i can buy these suppliments from?

----------


## LSDreamer

So, I got all my supplements in, and gave it a run last night. Now, I havent had a single dream in like 6 days because of stress/ schedule, but last night I was dead tired and passed out at like 10pm. Woke up at 230am to go to the bathroom, and when I came back in I remembered I had all my supplements ready.  I took 2 Galantamind and 1 Alpha GPC.  Passed out again pretty fast, and finally dreamed again.  It was a great time. I even was lucid for about 10sec in one of the dreams. Bonnaroo is coming up, and I have been having lots of dreams about festivals and such.  They are a big part of my life. Last night I had a very vivid and amazing dream that me and all my friends had a party at my house getting ready for roo.  Then out of nowhere I was in a field with about 100 others in a straight line, very weird.  I realized I had to be dreaming and ran out of line as fast as I could. Started running and tried to do a mario-esque jump to gain flight.  I dont remember anything after that, because I dont think it worked.   Looking back on it I should have stabilized first, but it all happened so quick.

Now, I dont know if the supplements had anything to do with it, or if its just being able to sleep normal again.  But I did have a few great vivid dreams last night and was lucid for about 10 sec of one of them.  I didnt take the pills with too much intention, was more of like, hey I have these, nom nom nom, passed out.  I was half asleep when I went off to the bathroom and remembered I had them.  So for that reason I dont think it is too much of a placebo effect.  More testing to come, but I am happy that I dreamed again.  The last 6 days or so have been just sleep, work, sleep work.  Glad to have a good time in my head again.

----------


## anderj101

> anyone know a reliable website i can buy these suppliments from?



I'm sure this link appears in this thread quite a few times, but for your convenience: I bought mine from dreamamins.com, specifically the _Lucid Dreamer_ blend of 4mg Galantamine (Red Spider Lily extract) and 200mg Choline.  It appears that they are currently under corporate acquisition/merger and will be processing orders again in March 2011.  There are a couple of other sites, but this is the one seemed to get the best reviews.

----------


## LSDreamer

Galantamind from Amazon + Alpha GPC from Soap.com  Both got to my house in under 5 days.

----------


## Rozollo

Can I get Alpha GPC at Wal-Mart or a drug store?

----------


## anderj101

> Can I get Alpha GPC at Wal-Mart or a drug store?



I get my Alpha GPC from All Star Health, 60 300mg capsules for $18.49.  My local (Frederick, MD) WalMart and CVS do not have it.  I haven't tried my local Vitamin Shoppe yet.

----------


## Lost_prophet

So I don't have to sift threw 31 pages, what does Alpha GPC do again?

----------


## NrElAx

> So I don't have to sift threw 31 pages, what does Alpha GPC do again?



I'm pretty sure its just a better form of choline that crosses the the blood brain barrier more efficiently that regular choline.

----------


## tulamidan

@TheKing: If you take Galantamind with  Pantothenic Acid  (this is Vitamin B5) and the recommended dose for LD is between 100-200mg. So I dunno if you need more of that. But some Alpha-GPC is supposed to help too.
I got myself some Memeron with 8mg Galantamine and 600mg Apha-Gpc (bloody price in comparison though, but dreamamins doesn't ship Galantamind currently). I guess the dosage should be right, now I'm waiting for my L-Theanine...

----------


## Magus2003

Oh well,
Tried again last night, but had 50mg of 5htp at bedtime and took the G/C at 5:30am and this time....
Absolutely nothing...
Slight memory of a dream, but nothing that was not normal.

Concerning 5HTP; I took 50mg the other day and woke up 3 hours latter feeling totally hyped up! not what I expected at all. The next night I tried 100mg to see if that would make any difference and  it just made matters worse. I woke up 4 hours later and had difficulty in getting back to sleep again.
This flies in the face of what is supposed to happen with 5HTP.

So I thought I would just try 50mg last night, to see what effect it would have on the G/C combination and nothing... Nothing at all... Not even a slight hint of anything whilst trying to wild or anything else.

Begining to think all of this is a wast of time and money.

Anyone got any other ideas to help here?

It seems at the moment, that any results I am getting could be nothing more than what I would naturally get anyway without taking the supplements.

----------


## tulamidan

Update about my (non) progress: Third time with Memeron (i.e. 8g Galantamine and 600mg A-GPC) and 200mg L-Theanine (added also 500mg l-Glutamine). This time I could get back to sleep and had some very non-linear dreams. I could have become lucid as at some point a DV mentioned that I took the meds and that I shouldn't do it when I have an appointment the next day. But I failed to become lucid and woke up soon after without getting back to sleep. The DC was right, I feel shattered now as I've set my alarm to 4h after falling asleep and thats just not a lot...

----------


## Magus2003

Tried Saturday morning again. Just G/C.
I again did not have any lucid dreams, but had more sleep paralyse experiences, if that is what they are????

I was laying in bed and my dream/astral body moved sideways across the bed and got pushed out of the bed.
I remember seeing an aquarium, but then came back and woke up.
I relaxed as I was still in the right state of mind.
This time, more aware, I could feel someone’s hands pushing my back as they pushed by astral body off the bed.
I found this amusing and once again found myself back in my physical body.
It started to happen again, and I tried to turn my dream/astral sight to see if I could see who was doing this, but all I could see was a  human shadow and no details.
They pushed me off the bed again, and even though it did not go any further that was the last experience of the night/morning.

Any one else have any experiences like this?

----------


## Magus2003

So where has everyone gone?  :Shades wink:

----------


## 24601

I asked this in another thread, but, judging by the length of this one, I should have asked here.

Is there a specific brand of galantamine that I should buy?

----------


## Magus2003

> I asked this in another thread, but, judging by the length of this one, I should have asked here.
> 
> Is there a specific brand of galantamine that I should buy?



No, most use galantamind or dreamamins.

I use the dreamamins one, even though it cost a lot of money, as when it got into my country I had to pay extra handling charges etc.

----------


## anderj101

> more sleep paralyse experiences -- hands pushing my back as they pushed by astral body off the bed -- found myself back in my physical body.
> Any one else have any experiences like this?



All but one of my G+C experiences have been slightly similar.  Short fast-paced dream periods with a mix of real and false awakenings in between.  A bit annoying, but quite enjoyable at the same time.

----------


## NrElAx

> So where has everyone gone?



I'm her  :smiley: . I haven't bought any g&c since like september. I want to buy it again, but I haven't been able to put my money towards that. Hopefully so I'll be able get those great experiences again with g&c.

----------


## Magus2003

Ok, tried again last night.
After taken the G/C I listened to a Robert Munroe mp3 on how to get to focus 10. It seemed very effective.
Result:-
Most experiences seem to be only small snatches of events.

I appeared in a room that was the same I was sleeping in, but with an old tv against the wall. When I tried to move... I woke up in my body.

I had small type dreams, about 3 of them that I was semi lucid in. everytime I tried to move... I woke up in my body.

I finally appeared walking through a door, in what appeared to be a college. I thought..'At last an open area that cannot contain me' (No fixed doors etc). I thought I would try to fly. I started to lift off the ground and everything faded and I woke up in my body.

I then had a long vivid dream about people I know taking me for granted and expecting me to do things without asking me first. Rather frustrating and angry dream. But only a dream with no lucidity what so ever.

And that was it.

There has to be a better way to approach this and achieve than this.
It seems to me that G/C tends to produce a lot of sp events and only small burst of lucid events.

Any one know how I could change that?

 ::?:

----------


## Magus2003

Tried again last night, but this time took the G/C at 4am.
Waited for a while to do a wild, but felt too tired so turned over and went to sleep, or tried to at least.
At one point I found myself awake. I realised I was in a dream environment so swung out of bed and sat on the end of the bed. I thought that was easy.
I moved over to the door and walked through into the landing and from there down the stairs and opened the front door.
Normally I find I cannot open the door, but this time it opened ok.
I felt I was on a much deeper level than normal.
I went outside and walked around the house.
In the distance was some hills and countryside. A river went through the back garden area. I decided to fly and rose into the air and flew over the country side.
This is where it turned into more of a vivid dream instead of a lucid.
I landed on the edge of what appeared to be a village. There was a sign post on the side of the road pointing to 'Ely' (Have looked this up and it is near Cambridge, England. I live a long way from there).
I do not know the name of the village, but there was a shop on the road and in the shop some newspapers. I checked the newspapers and they said 28th October 2011.
I thought this was very interesting.
I moved on down the street and suddenly the sky started to light up with things entering the atmosphere (Meteors/comets??) I found a barn to hide in.
There was someone outside that wanted to harm me for some reason, but he disappeared at some point.
Then the dream moved into me being with a group of people that were not that nice. I was with a woman, and at some point it was decided to escape from these people. But the only way we could do it was to just go and take nothing with us, which is what we did.

Next thing I remember was collecting rat traps around a pub. The landlord allowed me to do this in exchange for something... Not sure what. For some reason it seemed that cars there were rare, as there was not much petrol (Gas) about.

I had several other small dreams after that, but nothing substantial. 
I have a headache this morning. Could have easily have got up at 6am as felt wide awake then for some reason.

Interesting night...  ::D:

----------


## OwlDreamz

> So where has everyone gone?



I'm still here, watching this thread. As for attempts, I will try again on Friday night I think. I got some L-Theanine and B5, so I am going to try those with 8mg G and some Choline too. Fingers crossed I have some luck.

Cool dreams, Magus. I wish I could fly over the English Countryside.  ::blue::

----------


## Magus2003

> I'm still here, watching this thread. As for attempts, I will try again on Friday night I think. I got some L-Theanine and B5, so I am going to try those with 8mg G and some Choline too. Fingers crossed I have some luck.
> 
> Cool dreams, Magus. I wish I could fly over the English Countryside.



So what does L-Theanine and B5 do?

----------


## OwlDreamz

> So what does L-Theanine and B5 do?



According to The Supplement / Herb / Drug listings found here (you probably know about them, but that's where I get my info)





> B5 Effects on Dreaming:
> B5 is used along with Choline to produce the neurotransmitter Acetylcholine, which is the primary neurotransmitter used in REM sleep. This increases the vividness and the recall of dreams.



And as for L-Theanine, it's an amino acid that helps with sleep. G+C and B vits are all stimulants AFAIK, so that makes it difficult to sleep after you take them. 
I plan to through in some Piracetam when if ever I get a hold of that. It helps to stop you from building up a tolerance. 

HTH  :smiley:

----------


## ethan_hines

I bought Galantamind 8mg and whenever I take it It keeps me awake and I have zero change in vividiness or lucidity, should I include melatonin as an adjunct to prevent insomnia?

----------


## OwlDreamz

Unless your dose of melatonin is really low, I would think it's not a good idea. I remember reading somewhere in here that it stops one of the other drugs from working, might have been Galantamine. I don't feel like sifting through pages and pages to be sure, lol. Anyway, can you get your hands on some L-Theanine? That's supposed to help with the sleep factor. I haven't testing it yet personally though. Will let you know when I do. 

Also, make sure you're not staying up too long after your take your G. Some people on this thread have advised that you go back to sleep right after taking it. HTH

----------


## Magus2003

> I bought Galantamind 8mg and whenever I take it It keeps me awake and I have zero change in vividiness or lucidity, should I include melatonin as an adjunct to prevent insomnia?



Are you taking Choline with it?
You need too.

----------


## Magus2003

Ok, took G/C last night.
This time.... Absolutely nothing happened.
NOTHING...

Oh well....

Next...

----------


## DukeDreamWalker

I've been taking the Lucid Dreamer G+C combo now for about six months and have exceptional success almost every time.  I have never used these supplements more than once a week because of immunity issues and I never liked the idea of having to take yet another supplement to neutralize the G+C combo.  

I always WBTB for 4.5 to 6 hours and I only stay awake long enough to go to the bath room and take the pills.  I have been averaging from 4 to 8 LD's every time I take the supplement.  

Then I wait a day or two and attempt to WILD by WBTB for 4.5 to 6 hours. I usually wake up for 45 minutes and review the technique that I will use and then retire once again.  Here I have been averaging 2 to 6 LD's

I then wait for another 4 to 5 days to repeat the process.  I find that I can average at least 1 LD every night even though my LD's only usually happen two nights a week and that I am much more successful doing it this way than making an attempt every night.

Hope this helps...  :wink2:

----------


## ethan_hines

I have tried the following
Binaural AudioMonroe Institute Gateway Program Just up to Focus 10Monroe hemi-sync  Lucid Dreaming DVDSteve G Jones Lucid Dreaming Platinum VersionAdvanced Dream Nutition DreamscapeCalea Zacatechichi tea (never again!)Entada Rhedii (opened the shell ate the endosperm)Kava Kava (homemade tasted like drinking sand!)Life Enhancement Galantamind 8mg
The only time I've had consistent results is after listening to I-dosers Lucid Dream but none of the other Binuarals have any effect on me. To date I've had approximately 3 or 4 DILDs.
The only enthogen I havn't tried is Selenine Capensis. That's the next on the list god I hope it doesn't tase as bad as CZ and KK.

----------


## DukeDreamWalker

Hey, ethan_hines...

Have you tried reading some of the threads that deal with the basic WILD, and MILD techniques?  BillyBob's WILD is a good place to start:

http://www.dreamviews.com/f12/how-wild-62282/

----------


## Ev

I figured I'll add my experience. I got a bunch of "brilliant dreams" galantamine 4mg +choline dihydrogen citrate 100mg + melatonin 0.5mg + vitamin "B" 50mg.  Just like my previous experiments with galantamine, this concoction failed. I used it on 5 occasions, every time I ended up with horrible insomnia - just laying in bed in agony. I tried taking that both before bed and after a few hours. No notable effect on dreaming. Not worth the discomfort.

The pills are made in China, which does not fill me with confidence that they contain what's advertised on the bottle.

----------


## ethan_hines

> I figured I'll add my experience. I got a bunch of "brilliant dreams" galantamine 4mg +choline dihydrogen citrate 100mg + melatonin 0.5mg + vitamin "B" 50mg.  Just like my previous experiments with galantamine, this concoction failed. I used it on 5 occasions, every time I ended up with horrible insomnia - just laying in bed in agony. I tried taking that both before bed and after a few hours. No notable effect on dreaming. Not worth the discomfort.
> 
> The pills are made in China, which does not fill me with confidence that they contain what's advertised on the bottle.



 I'm glad I'm not the only one Galanatamine causes to stay awake all night.

----------


## Matte87

It gives me a hard time to fall asleep, but you guys, it's intended for WBTB. Make sure you're still sleepy as hell when you take the pill and take it just before you are going back to sleep. If you need the WBTB to be longer, make sure it's not long enough for you to have a hard time falling asleep. You'd want to be sleeping within 10 minutes. 

I did it this morning again and got lucid. The clarity of the dreams gets enchanced alot when I take this. But when I wake up at the end of next cycle, I have a real hard time falling asleep.

----------


## SleepyKitty

My experience with G+C combo has helped me more than I originally thought.  I havn't taken my G+C combo in about 1 and 1/2 months.  So far my natural lucid dream rate has gone up exponentially.  I'm currently having 1-3 natural LDs a week compared to 1 natural every other month.  I believe this combo has helped me understand how to keep myself more aware in the waking reality and that has pushed over into my dreams.  

I plan on using G+C combo soon but i'm enjoying the natural route atm...

I think this stuff will help you in the long run if you do not abuse it.  Keep on trying, there is an overwhelming amount of people that have great success with this combo.  I'm sure this will give newcomers the ability to achieve lucidity as well as help them along the path.  Keep dreamin.

-SK

----------


## lucidlion

I'm currently experimenting with G+C. The first night I took 4 + 100 at bedtime and noticed nothing out of the ordnary. The next night I took 8 + 200 after 3,5 hours of sleep. I probably waited to long before I went back to bed because I couldn't sleep for another 2,5 hours. But then... Success! 

I stretched my arms and found myself in a hospital. There was a reception desk and several nurses was walking trough the hall. The color of the floor was green. I let my hand glide along the floor and it felt incredibly real. There was some splashes of fluid and I could feel my hand getting wet. For some reason I decided that I wanted to jump out of a window in the end of the hall. I was on a floor high up in the building and I wanted to fly. So I started running towards the window. I passed a couple of nurses that looked really scared when they realized I was going to jump. I jumped through the window and... hit the ground!! Then I woke up and could'nt get back into the dream.
I wish I would have been smart enough to not pull a stupid stunt like that just yet. 

The LD lasted for about 30 seconds, but I feel it could have lasted much longer if I hadn't jumped. I must say that I am very optimistic about the results and will try it again after a couple of days of. This was my third LD in 2011, and I am certain that it was not random that it happened the same night I took the supplements.

----------


## lucidlion

I have tried G+C two more times since the last post. The successrate is 50/50. I succeded again this morning. 

Here are my findings: 
Both times when it worked i did WILD. And both times it took a good while before I entered a dream. Also, after a while, I switched position from my back to the side (maybe after an hour), and that's when the magic has happened. I will first enter a normal dream (this morning it was a dream about trying to LD), then I wake up and enter a LD shortly after.

I have also failed two times. That is when I have done nothing to get a LD. Just WBTB and took the supplements. Thos times I have had very vivid dreams and great dream recall (wich I normally don't have).

----------


## WhatsReal

Galantamine and choline together are amazing. I use them together every three or four days and I succesfully wild everytime. I also get the loud screeching sound and also vibrations sometimes with out of body exits into ld. 

The only side effect I get is upset stomach. Although it is only a little problem one time I did actually get sick. 

With these two combined and Dream boost I can have up to 3 wilds in a night.

----------


## phoenelai

I ordered some, I'll def post my results!

----------


## Panthau

> I wish I would have been smart enough to not pull a stupid stunt like that just yet. .



That made me laugh  :smiley: 

Anyone experience with G/C and a mindmachine? I recently got a David Delight mindmachine, and just ordered some G/C... that could be wild experiences  :smiley: 

Dont you feel also that some evenings you´re more ready then others? Sometimes i feel even before i go to bed slightly vibrations. It feels like someone is telling
me "ok this night is a good night" hehe

----------


## WhatsReal

> That made me laugh 
> 
> Anyone experience with G/C and a mindmachine? I recently got a David Delight mindmachine, and just ordered some G/C... that could be wild experiences 
> 
> Dont you feel also that some evenings you´re more ready then others? Sometimes i feel even before i go to bed slightly vibrations. It feels like someone is telling
> me "ok this night is a good night" hehe



sounds like your in for a hell of a ride.

Yeah, some nights a feel vibrations as soon as i lay down!

----------


## Panthau

Yeah it could definitly help falling asleep, as thats one of its main purposes. On the other hand, the mind altering
sessions, which are for ld and the like, could really lead to interesting experiences... hehe

----------


## SKA

I don't know if Galantamine is available without prescription in my country.

Does anyone here know if Choline alone, without Galantamine, is able to give vivid, memorable dreams?

Choline is appearantly abundantly present in many foods. According to Wikipedia;
-Beef liver (yuck!)
-Hard boiled eggs
-Cod fish
-Chicken
-Milk
-Soy Lecithine
-caulyflower
-Spinach
-Wheat germ
-Tofu
-Kidney beans
-Uncooked Quinoa
-Uncooked Amaranth

I guess it would be nice to try and make a salad with Kidney beans, hardboiled egg, Cauliflower, Codfish, Wheatgerm, Green pepper, Feta cheese, Rucola Lettuce & Milk/LemonJuice/Spices-dressing.
Suppose this would be a nice Choline bomb to eat half an hour to an hour before bedtime.

----------


## WhatsReal

You should be able to get choline tablets at your local viatamine store. I took choline alone for about a month and couldnt really see a difference in recall or vividness. I bought galantamine on ebay the guy sent me diriction for use threw email. He sells it as a Lucid Dreaming supplement. I can do a WILD every time i take the two together.

You can also find a pill online that is a combination of the two (galantamine and choline) I believe it is called lucid dreamer.

----------


## tommo

> I don't know if Galantamine is available without prescription in my country.
> 
> Does anyone here know if Choline alone, without Galantamine, is able to give vivid, memorable dreams?
> 
> Choline is appearantly abundantly present in many foods. According to Wikipedia;
> -Beef liver (yuck!)
> -Hard boiled eggs
> -Cod fish
> -Chicken
> ...



For a while I ate soy lecithin granules in milk before bed.  I didn't really notice that much difference.  I think your body uses it up quickly, and block too much from getting to your brain, which is why you need to use galantamine.

----------


## sergitoz

Hi guys, 

I follow this topic for quite a while, going through every single reply has helped to get close to my best method on this combo. Today I decided to ask for your kind advises.

I am able to have LD without the aid of supplements, but this combo is just amazing and nothing compares to it.

My rate on it is not that good, something like 50%. However I believe Im not doing something quite right and I have seen no one here to talk about something similar I experience. Here is what I do and my issue:

1)Wake up after 4.5 hrs
2)Take supplements: (G 6mg + Chol 400mg + L-Thean 200mg) ç
3) Wee wee and back to bed after 20 min.
4) Meditate 20 minutes and turn into my side wait for dreams
5) I always blackout between 1 hour and 1,5 after the supplements have been taken.


Then, I look at the watch, 30 minutes have passed. Get up, have a glass of water and go back to bed. Blackout again, wake up 30 minutes later. And Again, I get up, do some mentalization and go to bed.

ALWAYS, after the 2nd time I wake up and go to bed, I WILD!! So, its always between 2 hours and 3 hours I take the supplements. That sucks because the supplements are now far from the peak plasma and the LD is not that interesting.

I am starting to believe I am not having the minimum sleep hours requested from my body before make the attempt. It seems after I take the supplement I go again on shorts periods of deep sleep, and after 1 have this 1 hour of deep sleep I finally Wild. Or could it be the fact I stand up for 5 minutes and do some mentalization. 

It bothers me a lot, have to wait 2 or 3 hours to Wild...what you guys make out of it?

My best regards, and keep the good work on this thread!

----------


## lopsarong

> I tried it last night as a WILD aid with success.
> I'm a newbie and I had just 2 WILDs before, and this WILD was much more full fledged, and I didn't lose my awareness for a second.
>  (This is my second time of trying Galantamine + Choline. The first time was about a month ago and I failed and fell asleep, and I slept quite badly too)
> 
>  I took 4mg Galantamine and 500mg Choline Bitartrate about 4:30 hours after going to sleep. I then attempted to do WILD. 
>  I tried to do relaxation meditation, to stop the "voice in the head", the annoying thinking that distructs you. I was quite unsuccessful, so I gave up on relaxation after about 20 minutes and leaned on the side, and waited for HI.
>  After about 20 minutes I heard the most horrible screeching sound as if the very fabric of reality is being torn apart, and after I endured that I entered the dream.
>  The dream was very vivid, very clear and organized. Every once in a while I felt like I was waking up, and I didn't move so I can re-enter the dream, and I succeeded in re-entering the dream about 4 times. I don't know if it was false or real awakenings. 
>  All together the dream ( or chained dreams ) were rather long, about an hour. I was very satisfied with the dream, but for my taste this dream was too normal and neat, I prefer more bizarre dreams. In this dream I was walking around in a city. I could think very clearly, and I remembered that I wanted just to look around and observe the dream-scape. I remembered someone ( I think billybob ) suggesting to focus on textures in order to make the dream more vivid and detailed, and I looked closely at the texture on my hand, the walls etc.
> ...



I also do agree.

----------


## SKA

Choline shouldn't be hard to obtain round here.
I really need to figure out wether or not Galantamine can be obtained without a doctor's prescription here in The Netherlands.

If I can't get it without prescription, perhaps it is possible to extract Galantamine from snowdrop flowers and bulbs.

----------


## tommo

If I remember correctly, there is some poison in those flowers too.  And you need a lot of them to extract enough.

----------


## Panthau

Got mine  ::D:

----------


## jed001

i took 4mg Galantamine, 200mg Choline and 200 mg of B6 before i went to bed, woke up 3 hours later and had my first successful WILD it happened so fast that it took my off guard. i did an RC and found it very easy to stabalize the LD.

----------


## WhatsReal

I take the two during my wbtb, does anyone else do it like this or do most of you take it at the beginning of the night before any sleep?

----------


## zhineTech

G+C should be done during WBTB. I cant imagine taking it before bed...

----------


## WhatsReal

that's what I thought. Jed001 said he took his at the beginning of the night with succes. I don't feel I could fall asleep if I did it that way.

----------


## jed001

> that's what I thought. Jed001 said he took his at the beginning of the night with succes. I don't feel I could fall asleep if I did it that way.



the first time i tried G+C i took a double dose before i tried WBTB and it made me real jittery i could not relax . so the following week  i did it right before bed and it was great. i may try a single dose during my next WBTB and see what happens

----------


## jed001

> G+C should be done during WBTB. I cant imagine taking it before bed...



first time i took it was during a WBTB no good , second time i took it right before i went to bed woke up 2.5 hours later did WBTB and it work almost intsantly. third time i am going to try taking it before WBTB but a lower dose

----------


## WhatsReal

BY double dose you are saying 8mg of gal. And 400 mg choline? That's what I always take, my galantamine caps are already 8 mg I can't really cut them in half or I would.

I may try it at the beginning of the night. For some reasone I feel like it would be alot easier to WILD.... As you said, it happened almost instantly. How long are you staying awake during WBTB? Sometimes it takes me over an hour to WILD I would love to speed that up.

----------


## jed001

> BY double dose you are saying 8mg of gal. And 400 mg choline? That's what I always take, my galantamine caps are already 8 mg I can't really cut them in half or I would.
> 
> I may try it at the beginning of the night. For some reasone I feel like it would be alot easier to WILD.... As you said, it happened almost instantly. How long are you staying awake during WBTB? Sometimes it takes me over an hour to WILD I would love to speed that up.



for me it seemed less than 5 minutes, normally it takes me forever to wild, but this time it was so fast that i was like, oh shit i'm in now what . i am new to takeing suplements so i am still trying different doses and times and i will see what works best

----------


## dr1ft

GM + Choline has had about a 80% success rate for me.

I took it last night after a long break. Worked like a charm, though I have lost some control over the dreams from lack of practice.

----------


## zhineTech

> I have tried the following
> Binaural AudioMonroe Institute Gateway Program Just up to Focus 10Monroe hemi-sync  Lucid Dreaming DVDSteve G Jones Lucid Dreaming Platinum VersionAdvanced Dream Nutition DreamscapeCalea Zacatechichi tea (never again!)Entada Rhedii (opened the shell ate the endosperm)Kava Kava (homemade tasted like drinking sand!)Life Enhancement Galantamind 8mg
> The only time I've had consistent results is after listening to I-dosers Lucid Dream but none of the other Binuarals have any effect on me. To date I've had approximately 3 or 4 DILDs.
> The only enthogen I havn't tried is Selenine Capensis. That's the next on the list god I hope it doesn't tase as bad as CZ and KK.



i dont believe any of that binaural / hemi-sync stuff is good for anything other than getting you relaxed enough to perform LD techniques. you need to work more on your basics as mentioned above. you can't expect an outside force to do the work for you. you can do it!

having said that... you really need to combine choline w/ the galantamine for it to assist you properly.

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## apsinvo

I took 4mg galantamine and 200mg alpha-gpc at WBTB followed by 2400mg piracetam immediately on waking. It gives me lucids 90% of the time. Every other day was too often, and so I took it every 3rd day. After recently stopping for about 10 days, I realized that it made me very drowsy, lethargic, foggy and unable to concentrate.. It did give me regular lucids but in retrospect, it seems to have affected me quite badly during the day. I tried 3x2400mg piracetam for the last few days and found that I can concentrate and focus REALLY well. I don't really intend to continue it though. Adding choline made the effects even better. Therefore I put the negative effects down to the galantamine. Great for short term lucids, but I don't feel that you can progress on it.

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## anderj101

^ I certainly wouldn't recommend it on a regular basis. I couldn't imagine taking it every few days, as I would certainly burn out from it.

I would use it, rarely, as a kick to help get out of a dry spell.

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## Dowzen

Ordered some Galantamine the other day. Pretty excited...  ::banana:: 

_If people are still suffering from upset stomach etc the day after Galantamine, it might be worth trying a cold shower. Start hot then flick to cold. I find a cold shower helps normalize every one of the body's systems. It might balance the body, and help to detox any excess Galantamine too. Women pregnant or on their monthly cycle shouldn't cold shower, and some people say its not good for anyone with heart disease._

*A few questions, if anyone has some free time. I haven't seen these answered in the thread so far.*

1. What do you think is the best cycle of Galantamine? 2 ON 2 OFF 2 ON, or 1 ON, 1 OFF, 1 ON?

2. Does anyone know any herbs that help with Galantamine side effects, or synergize with it to help dreams?

2.5 Do you think Galantamine would work with Calea Z or African Dream herb, or is that justt oo much?,

3. Has anyone gone from near zero success to big success using only Galantamine?

4. Has anyone felt any tightness in the chest, increased heart rate or blood pressure on Galantamine?

5. What techniques work best combined with Galantamine?

Thx

 ::banana::  ::shock::  ::banana::

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## tulamidan

I can report very poor success with "Memerone". When I take it, I simly can't go back to sleep :/ I have tried a limited dose, and combination with different other things like the frequently mentioned L-Theanine, Valarian, even Melatonine. Maybe I'm getting a bit too excitet in the first half hour after taking it, but certainly after half an hour I get a rush in my head that makes me feel  uncomfortable and my night is definately over then.
Any suggestions what I can do to prevent this?

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## Darkmatters

> 4. Has anyone felt any tightness in the chest, increased heart rate or blood pressure on Galantamine?



I've heard it can be a problem, and a couple years ago when I was active on the board Dannon Onieronaut warned me about possible heart related issues. He didn't have any personal experience with it, only passing on something he had read and warning me to be cautious with it. But shortly after that, with his warning in mind, I did experience a slow and somewhat irregular heartbeat on G+C. Like I said though, it was years ago, and hard to remember details now. I probably wrote it down in my DJ, need to check on that. 

All this said, nobody else on this thread seems to have mentioned SLOW or irregular heart rate (I just re-read almost the entire thread). Some people did mention their heart rate sped up after taking it. 

I wonder if it might have been simply power of suggestion, or maybe I dreamed my heart rate slowed? Ahh... need to check what I wrote in my DJ... hopefully I detailed it pretty well there.

***EDIT***

Ok, checked the DJ, and apparently I definitely didn't dream the slow irregular heart rate, it happened an hour after taking the G+C combo, before I was able to fall back asleep. It's in this entry: http://www.dreamviews.com/f107/becau...ml#post1429173



Hard to say, especially after two years. To be entirely fair about this, that was the only time I ever noticed such a thing while taking the G+C combo, which I had taken many times before. It could have just been a fluke... especially since all the other people report their heart rate sped up, not slowed down. I guess I'll be able to report new data on this soon, as I've ordered a bottle of Galantamind - heh, after 2 years I had actually forgotten about the heart rate thing.

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## Dowzen

Thanks Darkmatters,

Well I've read a ton of testimonials and I haven't seen too many people mention the heart. I'll probably start very slowly, with 2mg. I wonder if there's something (not Piracetam) that you could balance with GM to make it safer. If you go that route you'd really have to know what you're doing though...

I suppose we can hope its safe for most people...





> Any suggestions what I can do to prevent this?



Hey Tulamidan,

The only thing I can think of would be to do 30-60 minutes of Tai Chi or Yoga before taking the pill. Maybe the rushes are caused by a build up of energy and you'll need to learn how to release/calm it down...

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## Rozollo

I tried Galantamind (4mg of Galantamine and 200mg of Choline) + 600mg of Alpha GPC after sleeping for 5 hours.  The level of clarity and duration of this dream was insane!

I got some Piracetam (800mg capsules).  Do I just pop 3 after I do a Galantamine dream attempt?  This weekend (possibly even tomorrow night) I was to try two Galantaminds during a WBTB. My goal here is to follow Thomas Yuschek's suggestion of doing 5 Galantamine influenced lucid dreams.  I have had little to no success going without supplements and doing a WILD, so I figured if I can experience the transition a few times, maybe that will help.

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## Darkmatters

Yeah, just take the P after you get up. I used to keep a water bottle next to the bed and whatever pills I wanted to take already out and waiting. make things easy on yourself, especially since you might not be thinking too clearly during a WBTB or when you first get up in the morning.

"The level of clarity and duration of this dream was insane!"

... No lucidity though?

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## Rozollo

When the dream came to me, I kind of knew I was dreaming, but as it went on, I got lost in the plot.

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## Dowzen

> I got some Piracetam (800mg capsules). Do I just pop 3 after I do a Galantamine dream attempt?



I've never tried Galantamine but I've tried Piracetam. Personally 800mg made me think clearer but also made me a little out of breath. It's thought of as safe but some people can run into side effects. 2400mg might be fine for most people but I would make sure you started slowly just in case.

The theory behind Piracetam clearing out Galantamine seems logical. But as some people have said, we its good to be careful of popping too many pills without caution.

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## NrElAx

> Ordered some Galantamine the other day. Pretty excited... 
> 
> _If people are still suffering from upset stomach etc the day after Galantamine, it might be worth trying a cold shower. Start hot then flick to cold. I find a cold shower helps normalize every one of the body's systems. It might balance the body, and help to detox any excess Galantamine too. Women pregnant or on their monthly cycle shouldn't cold shower, and some people say its not good for anyone with heart disease._
> 
> *A few questions, if anyone has some free time. I haven't seen these answered in the thread so far.*
> 
> 1. What do you think is the best cycle of Galantamine? 2 ON 2 OFF 2 ON, or 1 ON, 1 OFF, 1 ON?
> 
> 2. Does anyone know any herbs that help with Galantamine side effects, or synergize with it to help dreams?
> ...



I'd say do one day on, four days off. I started using it every other day and built a tolerance to it. But I haven't used it in 6 months now, so I'm gonna get back on it. I went from zero results to having lucids every time I took it. I only had one natural lucid before taking it, but that was a year before taking g &c and a yea before I started lucid dreaming again. I only felt a fast heart beat and vibration with it because I would go into sleep paralysis immediately after 30 minutes of taking the pill. And I always took it during a wbtb and either had a dild or vild. I went into sp soo many times from it, it was crazy. I also had some of the craziest sp experiences and false awakenings from it. Awesome stuff.

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## Darkmatters

Ok, my Glantamind came in yesterday, already had the L-theanine and Piracetam. Did a WBTB, but after only about an hour and a half of sleep... so not ideal timing. I can happily report no heart-related issues this time. Also, looking back at my DJ where I did have heart issues before, I had also overdone exercise that day, which might account for it. 

As for the Galantamine/ Choline experience, I had a very hard time remembering any dreams, and what I do remember was more like almost frozen images or very slow-moving ones with thoughts associated, and most of the thoughts were "I need to remember this". Funny... the last image I had just as I was waking up, the only one I could remember for a long time, was like a page of thumbnail images, I assume images from the dreams, and I thought "Oh cool, I can save this as a PDF and look at it after I wake up!" Too bad it didn't work that way...

Man, my brain and body just felt lit up with the Galantamine/Choline! But as usual with that combo, there was a grogginess or logginess and my mind seemed to be working very slowly, like trudging through a swamp. 

I took one Galantamind capsule (4 mg) plus 200 mg of L-Theanine, then 2400 mg of Piracetam after waking up.

I'd also like to add... the first dream was extremely vivid... I was awakened directly from it by the phone ringing, which might account for why I remember it better. Fell back asleep after that and the rest don't seem nearly as vivid, though as I said I had a very hard time remembering them.

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## Darkmatters

Hey, here's a question... 

I know some people take G+C 2 nights in a row, but I used Piracetam to clear my system today, so would it be pointless to take the G+C again tonight? I'm sure if I read through the entire thread I can find the answer, but it would take hours...   :Oh noes: 

Not really expecting an answer before I hit the sack (actually I'm getting pretty sleepy already) - so I'll just give it a try and see what happens. But would be nice to see the answer tomorrow. Or if anybody posts it in the very near future maybe.

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## Matte87

Atleast three days off before you take it again, or you'll begin to build up a tolerance to it.

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## Darkmatters

Ok thanks. Wow, you look pretty intimidating in that picture, I better listen to you!   :Eek: 

I remember seeing some people on this thread take it 2 nights in a row, and then maybe dry out for a few days. But I don't want to develop a tolerance, so I'll only do it maybe twice a week, with three days in between. 

As for my experiment last night, I went ahead and took 1 Galantamind capsule with 200mg L-Theanine after 3 hours sleep. And remember, I had done the same last night and cleared my palette with 2400mg Piracetam after waking up. 

No lucidity, but I remember a very long and very pleasant dream. I wonder if maybe just the B5 in the Galantamind capsule had an effect? There was none of the groggy feeling I usually get on G, no problems moving around or seeing properly in the dream - no sense of being drunk. In fact I seemed to float or drift effortlessly through the entire dream at walking level, until I needed to boost myself up over a wall and some people's heads, when I found a little extra effort could easily lift me up that high. Woke up today feeling great!

***EDIT***

Oh, and I also want to add, not the slightest hint of heart problems at all. I'm now convinced the problem I had before was from too much exercise and had nothing at all to do with Galantamine.

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## Matte87

Haha I haven't heard of heart problems when using Galantamine. Also yeah that's a good idea, I'm dangerous!  :tongue2:  

What I've found out while using this lucid aid, is that taking it after more than 6 hours of sleep is not good. I usually have a very hard time falling back asleep and if I do, if I would wake up an hour later (usually have many dreams by then) I can't go back to sleep.

6 hours is the limit for me. And I only use it once a week if even that.

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## Darkmatters

> What I've found out while using this lucid aid, is that taking it after more than 6 hours of sleep is not good. I usually have a very hard time falling back asleep and if I do, if I would wake up an hour later (usually have many dreams by then) I can't go back to sleep.



... Good to know. Luckily, I tend to automatically wake up around 3 or 4 hours into sleep, so that's when I do a WBTB. If I sleep 6 hours and wake up, I probably also wouldn't be able to get back to sleep. Unless it's one of those days where I just keep falling back asleep and waking up that seems to go on all day. 





> Also yeah that's a good idea, I'm dangerous!



Yeah, you're probably a big kind-hearted teddy bear!  ::lol:: 
(Anyway, if you're not, you'd have to come all the way from Sweden to kick my ass, so I can say you are!)

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## HiConsciousness

Hey what's up everyone  just finished reading this thread and just made an account here. I've been doing a lot of research on LD supplements lately and been Lding seriously for about a month now, but I used to have them frequently as a kid unintentionally. I just got my alpha gpc in the mail and picked up some melatonin and L-Theanine. I also have some 5-HTP that I've used before with galantamind on it's way. I was just wondering if anyone had any more information on using Melatonin and 5-HTP before bedtime as an REM rebound, doing a wbtb after 4 hours and then taking the G/C/Alpha/L-Theanine combo? It seems logically to be a great combo because you would have a ton of REM sleep to catch up on, still be really tired and have the benefits of the G/C/A/L too.

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## zhineTech

welcome!

you got it right. take the 5-HTP / Melatonin before bed, then do your WBTB and take the G+C etc combo.

you might want to sleep for longer than 4 hours to give the 5-HTPs REM suppression a little more time to wear off, but this will vary from person to person and night to night.

i usually dont get more than 7-8 hours of sleep and dont take 5-HTP anymore because i dont have time to catch up on the rebound.

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## HiConsciousness

Thanks, I think thats a good idea because I tried the Mel and 5-H last night before bed and woke up 4 hours later for my wbtb. I took the GPC and some L-theanine then to see if it had any effect before adding the galatamind when I get it and I dont think the REM suppressors had worn off yet, I had a pretty damn hard time WILDing despite the fact I was really tired. Barely any HI either which is rare for me. I also had some mild sleep paralysis but no vibrations or frequencies and eventually fell asleep, but later on in the night I did dream and my recall showed definite improvement when I woke up, no lucids though. Seemed to remember more fine details.

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## Darkmatters

I've been reading Yuschak's book and am very interested in Yohimbe used in addition to Galantamine/Choline. But I haven't been able find anything like what he describes in the book. He said he uses 9mg tablets of 8% Yohimbe extract and cuts them up with a razor blade into 25 parts. 

Well, I went a-googling and there's a bewildering array of Yohimbe products available, most contain other supplements that I don't want, some are liquid drops, etc. I have managed to find a few sold as tablets but most don't list what percentage the Yohimbe is. I haven't managed to find anything in a 9mg tablet that says it's 8% Yohimbe. I think the main problem is just the number of variables involved... most descriptions don't give enough information. 

My question is... does anybody have a source for it? A direct link would be best, Amazon is preferred, but whatever ya got is appreciated!!

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## Darkmatters

Update -

Did some more searching last night, and I think I'm starting to understand. One thing that's confusing me is that, while Yuschak said to look for a 9 mg tablet of Yohimbine, what I keep finding are much higher... like 200 or 500 mg or even more!! I looked back at the book, and he definitely states that the standard dosage for Yohimbine is 9 mg and the you won't find anything more than that. Huh??!! 

So I kept looking, and eventually found a couple of online stores with better descriptions of their products, and started seeing things like this:

"Yohimbe extract (bark)(standardized for 1% Yohimbine): 800 mg"
"Each capsule packs 451 mg of pure standardized Yohimbe Bark extract (2% yohimbine alkaloid = 9 mg)"

So comprehension begins to dawn, though somewhat dimly at this point. It SEEMS like, whatever mg count the product itself boasts, the strength of the extract itself is such that they all result in approximately the same dosage... averaging out to apprx. 9mg worth of extract. 

Ok, I'm beginning to get it now. It sounds like what I need to look for is a product with the lowest weight... lowest milligram count total.  This would be a stronger concentration of extract. 

Logic tells me this is true, but then I'm far from a trained pharmacologist, and my logic has let me down on more than one occasion... and this being pretty critical (taking too large of a dose can have some bad side effects) I'd really like to get some corroboration that what I'm assuming is true... or if it's not, then hopefully somebody can tell me what I SHOULD be looking for. 

Heh... after this, I need to tackle the problem... how does one go about equally dividing a tablet into 25 parts using a razor blade? It's an odd number... so you can't just keep cutting through the center like the way you cut a pizza... 

But that's for later... for now, my quest remains. Any advice or product links are still greatly appreciated.

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## Darkmatters

Another hour or so of searching, and I seem to be running into a brick wall. The only ones that mention what percentage they are always seem to be 1 or 2%. I've seen this marked on 800mg and also 500mg doses. I kept looking for smaller doses and ran across a tantalizing 350mg dose on one product, but every store that claimed to carry it ended up having the 500 mg dose instead. 

Ok, I think as long as I get something in tablet form that's only Yohimbine (no added supplements) and that specifically states it's an extract of 1 or 2%, then I know I'm at least getting the right stuff, and since the dose I'll be taking is so ridiculously small, it poses very little in the way of health risks. At worst it'll just keep me from falling asleep, or else be too small a dose to affect the quality of dreams. So unless somebody posts some info here before I decide to go through with this, I'll just get something meeting this criteria and give it a go. And I'll post the results here after trying it.

***EDIT***

Just after posting that I ran across this product: http://www.herbalextractsplus.com/yohimbe-bark.cfm

Finally, 8% Yohimbe extract!! It's a capsule rather than a tablet, but it seems to me it would be easier to divide up a powder into 25 equal parts than cutting up a tablet. Heh... wish I could get a sample pack or something... really one capsule would last me like a year!

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## Dowzen

Thanks for the replies about heart/Galantamine everyone. 





> I'd say do one day on, four days off. I started using it every other day and built a tolerance to it. But I haven't used it in 6 months now, so I'm gonna get back on it. I went from zero results to having lucids every time I took it. I only had one natural lucid before taking it, but that was a year before taking g &c and a yea before I started lucid dreaming again. I only felt a fast heart beat and vibration with it because I would go into sleep paralysis immediately after 30 minutes of taking the pill. And I always took it during a wbtb and either had a dild or vild. I went into sp soo many times from it, it was crazy. I also had some of the craziest sp experiences and false awakenings from it. Awesome stuff.



Sorry it took a bit to reply I've been busy.

It's great you went from zero to lucid, I hope to do the same. I'm still practicing drills every day while it comes.

Maybe the fast heartbeat comes from sleep paralysis, not really the Galantamine.

It sounds a lot of fun.

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## Darkmatters

I've now received a couple of the supplements I ordered... I'll post the results. Oh, also, in reading Thomas Yuschak's book I learned if you use Piracetam you can get away with using supplements every other night, which is how I'm doing it now. If I notice any fatigue or other problems I'll slow down. 

*5-HTP*. Took it the recommended way... before bed then woke after 5 hours and took a single Galantamind tablet (4mg Galantamine, 200mg Choline, plus includes B5, don't remember how much offhand). Also used 200mg L-Theanine to help get back to sleep. Had a very pleasant experience with this combo... no lucidity, but otherwise just as Yuschak describes... pleasant but extremely passive. 1st dream I was sitting in a schoolroom at a desk with my eyes closed, trying to fall asleep!   ::lol::  Had several others where I was in the passenger seat of a car moving slowly as I looked out the window. I was almost catatonic in most of these, but there were a couple of very short dreams with more activity. Woke feeling suffused with blissful wellbeing that lasted all day.

*Alpha-GPC*. Again, used as directed. After sleeping (only 3 hours though), then took 600mg along with a double dose of Galantamind (so 8mg Galantamine, 400mg Choline). Again, used 200mg L-theanine to help fall back asleep. stayed up and read for almost an hour for the G to reach peak level, then lay on my back to attempt WILD. My body easily lay perfectly still... it seemed to be almost numb, as if already asleep, and though I counted to ten over and over and watched the patterns behind my eyelids, took several hours to fall asleep.. Finally rolled onto my right side, and stopped trying to WILD, just let myself pass out in hopes of DILD.  And it was a raging success!! Got by far my longest lucid to date... seemed to go on for hours, and woke and fell back into lucidity many times afterwards. This was an amazing experience! Characterized by several things... I heard music throughout, and during the many parts where I found myself laying in my bed (though the room never looked at all like my room) I was hearing people talking in the next room. I seemed to recognize the songs, but on waking can't remember what they were. Other characteristics - I occasionally lost visuals or had some trouble seeing clearly, and had a bit of difficulty moving at times, as if my limbs were weak or restricted gently somehow. But overall a fantastic experience!! I kept finding myself laying in my bed and hearing people as if there's a (quiet) party one room over, but after a while I would always realize I was dreaming and get up to go exploring. I would crash through walls or sometimes just walk through doors and always found myself in corridors or rooms... couldn't find my way outside... it was like I was in an endless maze of interiors. Most fun parts - once I lost visuals in my room but the song told me to feel textures, so I ran my hands over the walls and curtains, then I punched out the window and felt the brick outside. Visuals came back. The song told me to eat glass. I knew it was a dream, so I did and it was soft and chewy! Also, for the first time in any lucid, I remembered to stabilize! Rubbed my hands together and said "Increase clarity now", but strangely, though I spoke out loud, I couldn't hear my voice, and clarity didn't increase. Oh well, it's still progress, and I'm really enjoying this.



I'm intrigued by Yuschak's theory that the most important factor in attaining lucidity is the level of certain chemicals in the brain during sleep, and that natural LD'ers are people who naturally have higher levels of them than others do. It also makes me wonder, if I had learned techniques for this when I was younger (I'm 49 now) maybe I would have had better success without the supplements? But I do intend to also keep trying for lucidity without the supplements, and Im sure after my initial excitement for all this wears off a bit I'll use them less and less. I also hope though that I get better control and clarity in my supplement-induced lucids through practice and experience.

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## Dowzen

What about rubbing Galantamine straight into the gums? You might be able to get away with a smaller dose, and it'd bypass your digestive system.

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## Darkmatters

... For faster absorption? Mmmm, that's a thought. Does that really work, and would it be as efficient? Might be worth trying a couple times as a test. Prolly be real nasty though! I don't really want to try to go to sleep with my mouth full of nasty-powder...  

One thing though... if you're trying for a WILD it's best to stay up for a while anyway and make sure you're well awake... but I usually find the G gives me DILDs if I go ahead and fall right back to sleep, and haven't succeeded in WILDing with it yet anyway. But I do like to at least try for the WILD, and if I miss it I still have a shot at DILD. One of these day's I Will find myself in SP and go straight into a lucid dammit!  :wink2: 

Also, I ordered Lucid Dreamer capsules from Dreamamins.com because they have just the G and the Choline with no B5. Yuschak seems to believe B5 keeps him from falling asleep, so I'd like to try without it. I'm also getting B-Complex vitamins to take during the day rather than at night, which is how he recommends getting some of the B vitamins.

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## Dowzen

b5 and Melatonin seem to be bad combos with Galantamine.





> Prolly be real nasty though! I don't really want to try to go to sleep with my mouth full of nasty-powder...



Just brush your teeth with Third-eye-calicification-fluoride-ointment toothpaste and you'll be fine.

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## Darkmatters

Rub it in and brush it off right away? Sounds kinda counter-productive. LOL I have no problem with taking capsules anyway... like I say, if I'm attempting a WILD I'll be staying up for a while, or if I don't feel like staying up I'll just drop right off to sleep and let the magic powder do its work from the dream state. I actually love suddenly getting lucid in an already in-progress dream, and not quite as keen on possible OBEs and all the SP stuff (though it doesn't scare me, just doesn't sound very pleasant). But it's a good idea... somebody might want to try it.

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## Dowzen

> Rub it in and brush it off right away



I think it'd be absorbed pretty quickly. It might be best to wait 30 minutes. Maybe drinking Peppermint tea or eating an orange would mask the taste. I'll have to wait til I get mine.

I like the way you get two shots with Galantamine. 1st a WILD, then a DILD if you flub the WILD.

OBE's? Sure they might be scary, but a lot of projectors say we exit the body every night anyway... It's a natural process we've all done thousands of times.

 :Oh noes:

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## Darkmatters

If you do try it, definitely post the results here! You probably ought to take it the "normal" way a few times first though, and get used to the experience of a Galanatamine dream before you try it, so you can compare the two experiences. 

About OBE, I have done it before, just not from trying to WILD, and it doesn't scare me or anything, but I just like coming to my senses in the middle of some crazy dream rather than in my room and then having to try to somehow make that into an adventure. Come to think of it though, by far the majority of my G dreams do start in my bedroom...    :Sad:

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## NrElAx

> Ok thanks. Wow, you look pretty intimidating in that picture, I better listen to you!  
> 
> I remember seeing some people on this thread take it 2 nights in a row, and then maybe dry out for a few days. But I don't want to develop a tolerance, so I'll only do it maybe twice a week, with three days in between. 
> 
> As for my experiment last night, I went ahead and took 1 Galantamind capsule with 200mg L-Theanine after 3 hours sleep. And remember, I had done the same last night and cleared my palette with 2400mg Piracetam after waking up. 
> 
> No lucidity, but I remember a very long and very pleasant dream. I wonder if maybe just the B5 in the Galantamind capsule had an effect? There was none of the groggy feeling I usually get on G, no problems moving around or seeing properly in the dream - no sense of being drunk. In fact I seemed to float or drift effortlessly through the entire dream at walking level, until I needed to boost myself up over a wall and some people's heads, when I found a little extra effort could easily lift me up that high. Woke up today feeling great!
> 
> ***EDIT***
> ...



The only heart related issue when I would take is feeling my heart race. But you know what it was, sleep paralysis. My whole body would just vibrate like it was coming from my heart, but that's typical sp. Also I dont know if rubbing the powder on your gums would work. I see what your saying though. With a faster rate of absorption, one might need less. But you'd have to know if galantamine needs first pass metabolism. If you really want quicker absorption, dump the powder into some juice and drink it. Almost all my galantamine lucids have started in my room too.

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## Darkmatters

I might try rubbing it on my gums one night... I did a little googling and some drugs are taken that way (cocaine mostly). At first all I could imagine was a dry mouth full of powder and puffing it out with every breath, but I guess it isn't THAT much powder really. Maybe rub it into the gums, chew on it a bit, and then swallow with some water? Whatever doesn't absorb through the mouth will in the stomach. And you might start getting the effects quicker. 



Anyway, got some *Melatonin* in and here's the results of that expriment:

Cut up a 3mg tab with an X-Acto knife... maybe it's easier with a razor blade, idk, but this was terrible! Mostly it just crumbled into powder with a few chunks in it. I took one that seemed to be about a tenth of the entire tablet upon first going to bed and read for a while. It made me feel pleasant... actually a bit like I just took a hit of some mellow weed (it's been many years, but I still remember) - only without any intoxication... just what I call the gasball in the back of the throat and a pleasant tingling warmth spreading all over my body, very subtle. It didn't make me really sleepy, but did mellow me out and after a while I tried to go to sleep, but it took hours. I probably went to bed too early though.

Woke after about 3 hours' sleep and took 8mg Galantamine with 200mg Choline and 200mg B5 (2 Galantamind capsules) - and I also took another same-size chunk of Melatonin. I estimate my total M intake was about .6mg. 

No lucidity, and after waking had a very hard tme remembering any dreams at all, but after a while the last one came back reluctantly and only little by little. It was just as 'passive' as the dreams I had on 5-HTP... began with me laying under a sheet on a parking lot in the cold drizzle staring at the end of a railroad tie for a long time. 

For real life reference, it was hot as hell outside and I had the AC cranked with fans going n my room and was under a sheet because it started to get a bit shilly. I believe the rain in the dream was in response to the sound of several fans going. 

The most that happened in the dream was that after a long time I got up and walked with some difficulty, as if half paralyzed, down toward some picnic benches and tables at the end of the parking lot and just before I sat down on a bench a bunch of elderly people (who were moving much faster than I was) sat down taking up that bench and the ones near it, and then suddenly noticed me and were very apologetic and offered to let me sit with them. 

Woke up feeling a bit groggy, none of the sense of great wellbeing the HTP gave me. 

So far I'm not real impressed with the quality of the dreams from 5-HTP or Melatonin. I prefer to be able to move around and DO THINGS!!!  :Cheeky:

----------


## HiConsciousness

> Anyway, got some *Melatonin* in and here's the results of that expriment:
> 
> Woke after about 3 hours' sleep and took 8mg Galantamine with 200mg Choline and 200mg B5 (2 Galantamind capsules) - and I also took another same-size chunk of Melatonin. I estimate my total M intake was about .6mg.



Melatonin is an REM suppressor and 3 hours isn't enough time for the suppression to stop, let alone taking more with the G/C combo. If you want to take Melatonin, Take it like 45 minutes to an hour before you want to go to sleep and then sleep for at least 4.5-5 hours. Then wake up and take the Galantamind with no melatonin.

Last night was my first attempt with Galantamind (1 pill), Alpha-GPC 300mg and L-Theanine 200mg. Slept for about 4.5 hours before I took it but I definitely had a hard time falling asleep afterwards. It took me about an hour after taking it and then I woke up about 2 hours after that and couldn't get to sleep for another hour. No lucidity but that could be for a number of reasons besides the pills. Next time though I will double the dose of the first two and then maybe try 300mg of L-Theanine. 
I did dream a lot however and I haven't even recalled any dreaming for the last 3 days and even before that it has been pretty sparse lately. Last night however I remembered 2 dreams in very high detail and part of a third. Even really small details so it's definitely doing something.
No noticeable side effects except I was extremely hungry when I woke up the second time (3 hours after taking it) so I may eat a little with the pills next time.

----------


## Darkmatters

> Melatonin is an REM suppressor and 3 hours isn't enough time for the suppression to stop, let alone taking more with the G/C combo.



True, but since I only took .3mg (as close as I could determine) it shouldn't have supressed REM much if at all. I think you're right though, I probably shouldn't have taken more later. One day I'll try it with ONLY .3mg. 

Of my recent attempts, using these supplements, the only one where I experienced lucidity was with Alpha-GPC in addition to Galantamind. But, as I recall, I also tried to WILD that night, and spent a lot of time imagining myself in a dream scenario and thinking about dream signs etc as I was trying to fall asleep. I suspect that had a lot to do with it. Heh... strangely, none of my dream signs actually appeared in the dreams though! Well, not technically, though I did hear a voice that sounded like my sister in the next room, and I'm using "friends and family" as DS's. Plus I used to think she was my DG... so maybe that's what sparked lucidity? Who knows...

----------


## NrElAx

> I might try rubbing it on my gums one night... I did a little googling and some drugs are taken that way (cocaine mostly). At first all I could imagine was a dry mouth full of powder and puffing it out with every breath, but I guess it isn't THAT much powder really. Maybe rub it into the gums, chew on it a bit, and then swallow with some water? Whatever doesn't absorb through the mouth will in the stomach. And you might start getting the quicker effects



I dont know if galantamine can absorb through the gums. Do a little research and let me know.

----------


## Darkmatters

Yeah, apparently there's some question about whether it can be absorbed directly through mucous membranes. If I do decide to try it, I'll post results here. I've been re-reading this thread from the beginning and apparently it works well to disperse it in a liquid, maybe something sweet to disguise the slight bitterness and drink it. That actually sounds a lot better to me!   ::lol::

----------


## zhineTech

> True, but since I only took .3mg (as close as I could determine) it shouldn't have supressed REM much if at all. I think you're right though, I probably shouldn't have taken more later. One day I'll try it with ONLY .3mg.



it would be counter productive to take either 5-HTP or Melatonin at the time of WBTB. They should be taken when you first go to sleep, if at all. 

I have found that the G+C+L-theanine combo is more effective without any serotonin based supps.

----------


## Darkmatters

Thomas Yuschak would disagree. He believes a very small dose of melatonin, like .3mg, doesn't interfere with REM, even if taken during a WBTB. 

Of course, what I did was still stupid... taking .3mg at bedtime and ANOTHER .3mg for WBTB - my excuse is I was tired and disoriented   :Uhm: . And I agree with you, I think the L-theanine is a better choice for helping get back to sleep.

----------


## Dowzen

> Cut up a 3mg tab with an X-Acto knife... maybe it's easier with a razor blade, idk, but this was terrible! Mostly it just crumbled into powder with a few chunks in it.



Instead of trying to razor a tablet to a gazillion fragments you could dissolve it in water and measure it with a dropper.

*

*Galantamine Absorption*

 I'm going to try it myself tonight with 2mg on the gums. Holding it under the tongue for a few minutes to get a sub-lingual entry might work too.

This rat study appears to show Galantamine can be absorbed nasally as well. I don't recommend anyone do that, but it seems to imply that non-stomach absorption is possible. It also says nausea and digestive reactions are reduced.

Mattek: 508. IN VITRO FORMULATION OPTIMIZATION OF INTRANASAL GALANTAMINE LEADING TO ENHANCED BIOAVAILABILITY AND REDUCED EMETIC RESPONSE IN VIVO.





> 508. IN VITRO FORMULATION OPTIMIZATION OF INTRANASAL GALANTAMINE LEADING TO ENHANCED BIOAVAILABILITY AND REDUCED EMETIC RESPONSE IN VIVO.







> This study by researchers at Nastech Pharmaceuticals demonstrated that MatTek's EpiAirway in vitro human tracheal/bronchial tissue equivalent can be used to accurately assess the drug permeability, tight junction modulation, and cellular toxicity of new intranasal drug formulations.
> 
> The purpose of the current investigation was to optimize an intranasal (IN) galantamine (an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor used for treatment of Alz-heimers disease) formulation using an in vitro tissue model (EpiAirway), to correlate those results to in vivo bioavailability, and to compare emetic response to oral dosing.







> In vivo studies in rats compared pharmacokinetic (PK) profiles of different formulations dosed intranasally. Finally, studies in ferrets evaluated PK and gastrointestinal (GI) related side effects of oral compared to nasal dosage forms.
> 
> Galantamine permeation was enhanced without increasing cytotoxicity.
> 
> Pharmacokinetic testing in rats confirmed the improved drug bioavailability and demonstrated an in vitroin vivo correlation.
> 
> Compared to oral dosing, intranasal galantamine resulted in a dramatically lowered incidence of GI-related side effects, e.g., retching and emesis. These findings illustrate that intranasal delivery represents an attractive alternative to oral dosing for this important Alzheimers disease therapeutic.

----------


## Darkmatters

Heh... conjures images of a bunch of alzheimer patients sitting around snortin' lines of G!!  :Rock out: 

Looking forward to hearing your results Dowzen.

----------


## Dowzen

Haha that's what I thought too.

***


I was so damn excited when I opened my door and saw the box today. I grabbed it and kissed like it was the holy grail. I know Gm doesn't guarantee lucidity, and you have to put the work in yourself, but I can do it. 

Today I'm going to eat mainly fruit and raw vegetables, to try and clear out my body. 
I'll do some Pranayama alternate nostril breathing plus some Tai Chi/Ba Gua/Yoga plus some Hindu Pushups before bed. I've got some mantras that I stick on repeat play before I sleep to try and help waking up. Last I'll just relax and enjoy the ride. 

Peace...

----------


## Dowzen

I'd still like to know if Galantamine enhances normal non-Galantamine lucid dreaming, or if you feel like you always need it.

----------


## Dowzen

*Galantamine 1. July 26th 2011. 4:30pm*

Took just 2mg, as I'm sensitive to chemicals.

Felt the effects surprisingly quickly. 

*Time/Effects
*

0mins- Sat down and relaxed, meditated. No time to sleep, a friend was picking me up at 6:30
Got up for a moment, the room seemed a little dreamlike and I felt lucid and sharp.


15mins- Felt calm, relaxed. The bad mood I was in disappeared.


20mins- Felt my emotions being gently processed. Felt as if I had a large glowing light in the centre of my chest. At peace in general. Body a little numb.


22mins- I lay down, legs crossed in meditating position. Felt as if I was being guided by my subconscious. Normally I feel frustrated trying to WILD, but this time I just went with it. Subtle, pleasant pulses and rushes in the body. 


30ins. All the above symptoms continue. I felt I was falling out of/into my body, but wasn't ready to go with it completely. No visuals, just emotional calm and dreaminess. This is a really intelligent high, like I was in touch with a deep part of my subconscious.


30-60 minutes. These feelings continued, then after an hour I got up and had a shower. For the next couple of hours I felt dreamy and didn't feel like talking.

----------


## HiConsciousness

Yeah my second try with this stuff and I did a wbtb after 4 hours with 2 pills GM, 300mg of alpha-gpc and 200mg of L-theanine and I couldn't get back to sleep. Got extremely close to a WILD twice with the second time getting a train-like roar of consuming vibrations that I was totally calm during but couldn't seem to get to the right place. I think I might try 3 hours next time to see if I can just fall asleep.

----------


## jed001

last night i took  Galantamine , Choline and some B-6 and had three very long vivid dreams i did not go lucid . i was kind of disapointed that i i did not realize i was dreaming. but i think the dreams were so wild that i got to wrapped up  in them

----------


## Darkmatters

Dowzen - a couple of pages back several people (at least 2, I think maybe 3?) mentioned that using Galantamine definitely did not interfere with their ability to get lucid without supplements. I don't remember if anybody said it actually improved their chances or not. My idea is to get some better lucid experience by using it... be able to do things I haven't accomplished without it yet like stabilizing a dream, summoning people or trying out powers etc. in hopes that I'll then be better able to do those things in a regular lucid. I'm also hoping that with practice and experience at G dreaming I can overcome the problems... the difficulties with walking and clarity. 

And I agree... even if you don't get to sleep after taking it, it suffuses your body and mind with pleasant sensations. I was planning to use it last night, but unfortunately woke after only 2 hours, which isn't enough deep sleep, so went back to sleep hoping to wake again an a few hours, but slept straight through for 5 more hours! (total of 7 hours sleep already). I felt like I could still get back to sleep and went ahead and took 8mg Galantamine with 400mg choline and 200mg L-theanine and couldn't get back to sleep, but started feeling amazing. Eventually I decided screw it and got up to take 2400mg Piracetam. I feel fantastic today!! Sucks though, now I gotta wait at least another 48 hours to try again.

----------


## HiConsciousness

> Dowzen - a couple of pages back several people (at least 2, I think maybe 3?) mentioned that using Galantamine definitely did not interfere with their ability to get lucid without supplements. I don't remember if anybody said it actually improved their chances or not. My idea is to get some better lucid experience by using it... be able to do things I haven't accomplished without it yet like stabilizing a dream, summoning people or trying out powers etc. in hopes that I'll then be better able to do those things in a regular lucid. I'm also hoping that with practice and experience at G dreaming I can overcome the problems... the difficulties with walking and clarity. 
> 
> And I agree... even if you don't get to sleep after taking it, it suffuses your body and mind with pleasant sensations. I was planning to use it last night, but unfortunately woke after only 2 hours, which isn't enough deep sleep, so went back to sleep hoping to wake again an a few hours, but slept straight through for 5 more hours! (total of 7 hours sleep already). I felt like I could still get back to sleep and went ahead and took 8mg Galantamine with 400mg choline and 200mg L-theanine and couldn't get back to sleep, but started feeling amazing. Eventually I decided screw it and got up to take 2400mg Piracetam. I feel fantastic today!! Sucks though, now I gotta wait at least another 48 hours to try again.



Oh definitely man! Dreams or no dreams, these pills are incredible. I feel like my mind is working so much better even on days when I'm not taking it; my concentration is on, I'm clear-headed, my memory is fantastic, and I just feel all around better. I've started looking it up because of this and there are a number of studies going on that use it to restore cognitive function to drug addicts and other groups of people as well besides the fact it's used for alzheimer's patients. It definitely needs to be researched more fully as a daily life supplement for people just to feel better. Buy stock now haha

----------


## Dowzen

Today I felt a bit tired. The unrested sleep G users talk about. After a cold shower and a ton of fruit I felt better. 





> Dowzen - a couple of pages back several people (at least 2, I think maybe 3?) mentioned that using Galantamine definitely did not interfere with their ability to get lucid without supplements.



Thx, guess I didn't notice. I think it's showed me the way, and I could easier LD now. I think it's opened up neural pathways in my mind.





> It definitely needs to be researched more fully as a daily life supplement for people just to feel better.



I'm glad you like the stuff. Even on 2mg I found the experience too intense to try every day. Twice a week is fine for me.

----------


## DREAMER242000

Personally although I am able to have Lucid dreams without taking Galantamine or any other Supplements, I
do find my Lucid dreams are greatly enhanced in detail and duration If I take a Lucid dreaming Pill.
I recently had my longest ever ld which lasted about 25 minutes and was a fantastic experience, normally
my lds only last a few minutes.

----------


## Robot_Butler

I dissolve my galantamine in a very small glass of water.  I find it hits me a bit differently.  This is pretty common practice.  I think Thomas, himself, suggested it to me.  It does not taste bad at all.  It is a bit sour, like a slightly nasty glass of lemonade.  I think the current bottle I have is galantamind.  It is G, Choline, and...maybe B5?

----------


## WhatsReal

> I dissolve my galantamine in a very small glass of water.  I find it hits me a bit differently.  This is pretty common practice.  I think Thomas, himself, suggested it to me.  It does not taste bad at all.  It is a bit sour, like a slightly nasty glass of lemonade.  I think the current bottle I have is galantamind.  It is G, Choline, and...maybe B5?



Great post... I will try tonight. My G and choline are in caps... Just break open the capsuls and pour in the water?

----------


## Dowzen

> dissolve my galantamine in a very small glass of water. I find it hits me a bit differently.



Thinking about it, that might be a great idea. It might be easier and safer for the body to absorb like that. How does it hit you differently?

----------


## Dowzen

I hope someone can answer this before I go to the shops in an hour or two:

What's the best combination with Galantamine, Alpha GPC or Choline Bitartrate? Or is there something else? And which is best as a standalone?

Thx

----------


## Darkmatters

I'd say get the GPC... your Galantamine already probably includes a good deal of Choline Bitartrate. 

I liked what the Alpha GPC did for my dreams - I was lucid and the dreams lasted for what seemed like hours! 

Best supplement alone is of course Galantamine - but you're probably asking between the other 2 you mentioned, right? Choline by itself won't cause lucidity, but GPC can. It's listed as a trigger, as well as an additional kick when added to Galantamine. However it isn't as powerful for inducing lucidity as G is. Do you have the book Advanced Lucid Dreaming? Definitely get that, or at least do a search for it... you can find it online as a PDF. 

I'm getting some additional Choline as well, just to try upping the dose on that and see what it does.

----------


## Dowzen

Actually I ordered Galantamine with no Choline so I have to buy a supplement. I like being able to mix and choose myself.

Alpha GPC seems fascinating, I didn't realize it could trigger by itself. I hope they have some in the local pharmacy. I'm sure it's more powerful than G but I don't want to do too much Galantamine. It seems to lower my blood pressure and that makes me a bit uncomfortable.

Choline seems fairly safe so I think you should have no problem upping the dose within reason. Choline rich foods might help too. Co-factors are put into foods by nature for a reason.

I didn't know Yuschak's book was available as a pdf... Thx.

* * * 

EDIT: I couldn't get Choline, but found some Lecithin instead. I just need to work out how much to take...

----------


## zhineTech

you need choline or Alpha GPC w/ the galantamine. either does very little by itself. I say this based on experience and research. Lecithin is the precursor to choline, you will need to break it down, and i think that would greatly reduce the interaction. you want there peak plasma levels to coincide as closely as possible.

choline and Alpha GPC serve pretty much the same purpose, from what I remember the GPC gets into your brain faster (which is not always what you want when you are looking at a few hours worth of sleep)

i take 4mg G + 400mg choline + 200mg l-theanine

----------


## NrElAx

Some people have stated that alpha GPC taken alone has given them lucids or at least helped. I dont know if its just a coincidence, or if it really does help a little, but people have stated it did help. But the G&C combo is obviously going to help the most, and I find it a miracle supplement for helping those either get their first lucid, or getting someone out of a dry spell.

----------


## Dowzen

> you need choline or Alpha GPC w/ the galantamine. either does very little by itself. I say this based on experience and research.



You're probably right. I'll try and get some GPC when I get the chance...





> Some people have stated that alpha GPC taken alone has given them lucids or at least helped.



I've heard this too. GPC or choline might be worth trying as a standalone before taking Galantamine... Some people might find that's all they need.

----------


## NrElAx

> You're probably right. I'll try and get some GPC when I get the chance...
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard this too. GPC or choline might be worth trying as a standalone before taking Galantamine... Some people might find that's all they need.



Its obviously not going to work as well as the G&C combo, but I've defiantly read peoples post who have stated that taking alpha gpc alone has helped them become lucid.

----------


## Rozollo

> Today I felt a bit tired. The unrested sleep G users talk about. After a cold shower and a ton of fruit I felt better. 
> 
> 
> 
> Thx, guess I didn't notice. I think it's showed me the way, and I could easier LD now. I think it's opened up neural pathways in my mind.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad you like the stuff. Even on 2mg I found the experience too intense to try every day. Twice a week is fine for me.



For the unrested sleep, pop 100mg of 5-HTP at bedtime.  The way it works is it will increase your serotonin levels in the first half of the night, giving you a deep sleep, then in the second half you'll be good for dreaming.  I have vivid dreams with just 5-HTP, and I feel quite refreshed.

I did 4mg of Galantamine, 200mg of Choline, and 600mg of Alpha-GPC followed by 2400mg of Piracetam to counter.  I had extremely vivid and long dreams (like a days worth in a very short time), but I didn't go lucid.  So far, of my 4 attempts, I've had one lucid dream.

----------


## kidjordan

Hello. I'm new to this thread. I've read Yuschak's book and now I want to buy some galantamine and choline supplements. I'm not going to try the L-Dopa because I saw that it's dangerous. http://www.dreamviews.com/f44/mucuna...-l-dopa-35876/
I'm probably going to try Yohimbine and Alpha-GPC later, but first I want to use the basic G+choline mix. 

However, I don't know which stores are best in terms of price and quality. I want to make sure that I what's on the label is what's in the pill. Thanks for all of your help.

Edit:
I also want Pirecetam. Does anybody know of research into other nootropics? Also, the need for a good store in terms of quality and price applies to the pirecetam as well.

----------


## zombiemushrooms

alright, so, i've taken the Galantamine/Choline three times so far, and something has gone wrong every time. the first time, i slept for 6 hours, took 4mg Galantamine and 200mg Choline. i went back to sleep and just had normal dreams. the second time, i doubled the dosage and took it after 4 1/2 hours, but i couldn't sleep at all. last night was my third attempt. i slept about 5 hours and took the 4mg/200mg pill, but i couldn't sleep for another hour and i had no lucids. does anyone have any suggestions on my technique? i don't know what i'm doing wrong or why i can't sleep, so if anyone can help, i'd appreciate it. thanks!

----------


## Darkmatters

Yeah, the Galantamine insomnia can be a real bitch! Try 200 mg L-theanine along with it to help sleep. Also try relaxation techniques - I've had pretty good luck with just breathing very deeply a few times... really filling the lungs all the way to the top of the chest and then exhaling as completely as you can. Just a few of these will do the trick, and then I find I feel heavy like lead and can actually lay perfectly still on my back for a WILD attempt. 

Also, are you using any particular techniques for the WILD? The pills won't do the job alone... they just increase your chances, it's still really your visualizations and techniques that count. 

kidjordan, thanks for the L-dopa warning!! I had never heard any of that about it, and in fact I have a bottle and was going to try it out... the only reason I hadn't yet is because you're supposed to take it, then wait an hour to take the GM+Choline before WILDing, and I find if I stay up that long it gets hard to fall back asleep. I'm going to trash it now. 

Any unknown dangers to using Yohimbine I should know about? Haven't tried it for lucidity yet, but took a single capsule the other day just so I'd know what it does to me and be alble to recognize it in lower dosages for dreaming, and I had a really bad day. It wasn't too bad at first... got some little 'rushes' of adrenaline, which is what I was expecting, but the bad stuff started after about 5 hours (which is when it's supposed to already be cleared out of your system... ?). Made me feel like absolute crap the rest of the day. I'll probably just trash it too. People only mentioned it a couple of times on DV, and all they said is it didn't help them lucid.

----------


## NrElAx

Do what Darkmatters said. Also, I usually have a glass if water next to my bed and all my pills already out of the Bottle. I just take the pills and go right back to sleep. Usually ill wake up like and hour later once it has peaked and I'll instantly go into sleep paralysis.

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## Darkmatters

LOL yup - I was coming back to add that to my post... straight back to sleep after taking the capsules!

----------


## zombiemushrooms

Thanks for the suggestions, I really appreciate it. Would Melatonin be a possible replacement for the L-Theanine? I already own that so it would be much more convenient, hahaha. Do either of you have a suggested WILD technique? Or is visualization/the use of mantras an adequate method?

----------


## Darkmatters

Melatonin can work, but you have to take it in a very small dose so it doesn't supress REM. Yuschak recommends .3 to .5 mg, leaning toward .3. What strength tabs do you have? They're usually 1, 3, or 5 mg. I bought 3mg, and in order to get it down to .3mg I needed to basically powder a tablet and pull out a little bit. I wrote about it a page or so back. But I switched to L-theanine after that one attempt, so can't say how well it would work for me. I messed up that night, took it when I first went to bed and then again for a WBTB,  which put a total of .6mg in my system... and it ruined my REM. But if you use just .3mg for a WBTB it should be fine. 

Yuschak says if he takes it when he first goes to sleep for some reason he has a harder time falling asleep later, for WBTB.

Here's the post where I wrote about melatonin: http://www.dreamviews.com/f44/galant...ml#post1707782

----------


## NrElAx

> LOL yup - I was coming back to add that to my post... straight back to sleep after taking the capsules!



Do usually wake up like an hour after taking the pills? I remember always falling asleep after taking the pills, but id usually wake up about an hour later and go straight into sleep paralysis. That's what happened most of the times, but sometimes id just have a dild and sleep the rest of the morning until I wake up for good.

----------


## NrElAx

> Thanks for the suggestions, I really appreciate it. Would Melatonin be a possible replacement for the L-Theanine? I already own that so it would be much more convenient, hahaha. Do either of you have a suggested WILD technique? Or is visualization/the use of mantras an adequate method?



I'd suggest trying to VILD when taking the G&C combo. Its just a visualized WILD if you dont know what it is. If you can, id say take the pills right when you wake up for wbtb and set an alarm for an hour later. When the alarm wakes you up an hour later after taking the pills, try and VILD right away. Just visualize being somewhere, and usually what would happen for me is the dream would instantly start forming in front of me. This works best if you wake up and feel like your in sp. I'd usually wake up after the alarm, and feel my body vibrating a lot, and I know that's a good time to VILD. For some reason, I was only able to do this with the galantamine and choline combo. I tried it without it, but I dont wake up into sleep paralysis. The G&C just always helped me get into sp almost everytime I took it. It was like id wake up, and BOOM, im in sp without even trying.

----------


## Darkmatters

> Do usually wake up like an hour after taking the pills? I remember always falling asleep after taking the pills, but id usually wake up about an hour later and go straight into sleep paralysis. That's what happened most of the times, but sometimes id just have a dild and sleep the rest of the morning until I wake up for good.



Too often I don't get back to sleep at all after taking them. Or for like 3 hours, which leaves about an hour while the G is still in my system. Pretty much the only way I can get back to sleep at all is to start right after taking the pills - it usually takes me about an hour at least to fall asleep, unless I'm super-tired or something - damn insomnia! So basically I'll take my combo of choice and lay right back down, go through relaxation techniques if needed, and start WILD procedures. A few times I've gotten into some pretty heavy SP stuff, but haven't been able to coast through to a lucid that way yet.. if I feel like I've been trying too long I'll just roll onto my side and crash, and believe it or not, that's how I've had all my Galantamine lucids thus far. I feel like I"m getting a lot closer to WILDing though.

----------


## NrElAx

> Too often I don't get back to sleep at all after taking them. Or for like 3 hours, which leaves about an hour while the G is still in my system. Pretty much the only way I can get back to sleep at all is to start right after taking the pills - it usually takes me about an hour at least to fall asleep, unless I'm super-tired or something - damn insomnia! So basically I'll take my combo of choice and lay right back down, go through relaxation techniques if needed, and start WILD procedures. A few times I've gotten into some pretty heavy SP stuff, but haven't been able to coast through to a lucid that way yet.. if I feel like I've been trying too long I'll just roll onto my side and crash, and believe it or not, that's how I've had all my Galantamine lucids thus far. I feel like I"m getting a lot closer to WILDing though.



I know exactly what your saying. I usually had a hard time getting back to sleep too. That's why I usually woke up like 4 hours of sleep. That way I was tired enough to fall asleep. I have a hard enough time going to sleep at the beginning of the night anyways lol. That's why I started taking the pills and going right back to sleep too. At first I would stay awake for like ten of twenty minutes, but damn, is it hard to get back to sleep. I had plenty experiences of not getting back to sleep for hours like you stated. Have you had insomnia for a long time now. I had one week where I literally only slept for like 16 hours total. I just couldnt fall asleep and when I did, id wake up and wouldn't be able to get back to sleep. I felt so depressed that week because insomnia really messes with your head. I often have a hard time getting to sleep because my mind races alot while im trying to fall asleep. I tend to think too much at night. You should try and VILD. I find it much easier than WILDing on G&C. Read my post above about setting the alarm for an hour after taking the pills. But only do it if you can fall right back to sleep after taking the pills. I love VILDs because you basically bypass sp and the dream just forms in front of you.

----------


## Darkmatters

I pretty much have _permasomnia_ I think!  I'm also nocturnal, which probably doesn't help. I normally don't get to sleep until after the sun is blazing in the windows. I seriously need some blackout blinds!! I used to go through periods of sleep deprivation, like averaging maybe 4 or 5 hours a night for weeks at a time if not longer. 

Wonder if I ought to try to get back on a regular sleep schedule? I understand melatonin is supposed to help you sleep at night at be awake in the day... I wonder if taking it in the daytime would help with that? 

I better not try to VILD until/unless I get to where I can fall asleep faster.

----------


## NrElAx

> I pretty much have _permasomnia_ I think!  I'm also nocturnal, which probably doesn't help. I normally don't get to sleep until after the sun is blazing in the windows. I seriously need some blackout blinds!! I used to go through periods of sleep deprivation, like averaging maybe 4 or 5 hours a night for weeks at a time if not longer. 
> 
> Wonder if I ought to try to get back on a regular sleep schedule? I understand melatonin is supposed to help you sleep at night at be awake in the day... I wonder if taking it in the daytime would help with that? 
> 
> I better not try to VILD until/unless I get to where I can fall asleep faster.



Damn man, sorry to hear you have so many sleeping problems. I put a thin blanket over my shades because even with my blinds, the light still annoys the hell out of me. I used to take unisom a lot for sleep, but in stopped taking it because i was depending on it to much. The blue ones are seriously the best OTC sleeping pill I've ever tried. It has doxylamine in it, while most other pills just use Benadryl. Have you seen a doctor about your sleeping problems. I dont know if your all natural, but you can try something from the doctor. But i probably wouldn't want to depend on those either. You should try unisom out once. Its just one pill and the first time i took it, it knocked me out. I had been having trouble sleeping at the time, so it felt good to get a good night sleep. Ever since since high school I've had trouble sleeping, but im in my fourth year of college and it defiantly helps being able to sleep in most days of the school week because my classes usually dont start till later. I made it like that just so i had a chance to sleep in a little bit. But i hope you find something that helps you with sleep or some type of relaxtion technique that will help.

----------


## Darkmatters

::lol::  It's not THAT bad!! I probably made it sound worse than it is... haven't been in sleep deprivation for a long time now, and I rather like being nocturnal... that
s by choice really, but I'm just wondering if it would be better to be a _daywalker_.   :Shades wink: 

So the only real PROBLEM I'm having now is that it can take an hour or sometimes several to get to sleep... especially after imbibing the big G. I do appreciate the concern and advice though. I might just have to hang a couple of blankets... been considering that.

----------


## NrElAx

Maybe you should give daywalking a try then hahah. Do you have a night job, or do you just stay up all night? I tend to go to bed at 3 or 4 am most nights, but I usually get up at 11 or 11:30. So I dont sleep in too late. That's just during the summer though. Once school starts, it'll be a different story. But I'll still stay up pretty late even though I have class lol.

----------


## zombiemushrooms

i have 5mg melatonin tablets, so i guess it would be too complicated to bother with. also, i've read online that melatonin doesn't suppress REM sleep, so i'm really confused about whether or not it actually does. i'm thinking that i'd probably be able to get back to sleep as long as i went directly to sleep instead of getting up. both of my experiences where i couldn't get back to sleep involved me getting up, using the bathroom, eating, etc. i'm going to try getting right back to sleep instead of giving the Galantamine time to kick in and keep me awake.

----------


## shooshtime

I've been taking my G+C combo again about 4 times within the last 2 weeks and I've had a 100% success rate on having multiple lucids each attempt. Currently the last 10 attempts to have lucid dreams using the G+C combo have been 100% successful so I would highly recommend to anyone that is having a dry spell or looking to increase the times of having a LD to give this a shot.

I haven't noticed any negative effects on my natural lucid dreams at all, if anything I feel the more often I am taking my G+C combo , the more often I end up having natural lucid dreams in between. My goal is to continue using the G+C combo until i'm at the point of having 4 - 5 nights of natural lucid dreams but I feel this is a great way to build up until then.

----------


## Darkmatters

> Maybe you should give daywalking a try then hahah.* Do you have a night job, or do you just stay up all night?* I tend to go to bed at 3 or 4 am most nights, but I usually get up at 11 or 11:30. So I dont sleep in too late. That's just during the summer though. Once school starts, it'll be a different story. But I'll still stay up pretty late even though I have class lol.



I am currently free of the shackles of employment. But I used to work in the evening and have been nocturnal for ridiculously long... though from time to time I switch to a daytime schedule when I need to. 

Zombieshrooms, I remember when I took Melatonin I woke up from a dream. But apparently it's only supposed to repress REM for a very short while. It's effective half life is only like 20 minutes or so. And as it's wearing off I assume you'd start to dream even before it's fully gone. But I understand people have said they took it and woke almost immediately from dreams, so the jury's still out on its REM suppression. 

Congrats Shooshtime!! I seem to have overdone it (was taking it every other night and using Pirecetam to clear my system), and develped a tolerance or something. I wasn't affecting me anymore. Currently drying out.

----------


## NrElAx

shooshtime, wow. I am very happy for you. That's an excellent success story right there and show how much g&c can help those in need for an LD.

----------


## zombiemushrooms

shooshtime, can you tell us your technique? how long you sleep, when you take them, how much you take, etc.

----------


## zombiemushrooms

also, Darkmatters, is it a logical theory that if i took the melatonin at the same time as the galantamine, the galantamine would kick in an hour later, with me fast alseep, and the melatonin wouldn't affect it?

----------


## Darkmatters

Oh man, I couldn't tell you!! Let's see, if I remember right, M takes an hour to reach peak plasma levels, same as G does, and it's from that point that you measure halflife, so it ought to work. Just be sure to take no more than .3 to .5 mg. Best way to find out is to try it.

----------


## zombiemushrooms

i might not even need it, i was just thinking about taking it with the galantamine. my plan is to try waking up after 4 1/2 hours and taking my galantamine/choline and going right back to sleep

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## Darkmatters

Yeah, try it without melatonin first. Then if you have trouble getting to sleep, add some melatonin. I just checked, and reports say halflife can be anywhere from around 20 minutes to 2 hours. Still it would be cleared before the G is done working.

----------


## zombiemushrooms

thanks man, i appreciate the help. i'm gonna try it out tonight without the melatonin and hopefully i'll be good

----------


## shooshtime

> shooshtime, can you tell us your technique? how long you sleep, when you take them, how much you take, etc.



My technique is taking 5htp before going to bed and setting my alarm clock to wake up around 4 1/2 hours after the time I fall asleep. When I wake up for my WBTB I take my G+C combo which contains 8mg Galantamine, and 400mg Choline as well as 600mg of Alpha GPC. I stay up for roughly 45 - 60 minutes before going back to bed and hopefully hitting some LD's.

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## Darkmatters

Killer combo!

----------


## WhatsReal

I have been taking galantamine and choline during my wbtb for about 7 months now with great success,attaining lucidity about 95 percent of the time. After reading some things on this thread I have decided that I was going to start taking the combo before bed just to see what would happen. I have only taken it before bed twice so far but both night were very interesting nights of dreaming. The first night I did a wbtb and upon laying back down I was able to wild in a matter of minutes wich I have never had and when I woke I instantly began to vibrate and had another LD. The second time I had a DILD within only 2 hours of sleep and was able to Wild immidietly after. I think it's an interesting change of pace and anyone who takes this combo should try it atleast once. I'm more conscious throughout all of my dreams and the galantamine side effects are not as bad in the morning.

----------


## zhineTech

> Hello. I'm new to this thread. I've read Yuschak's book and now I want to buy some galantamine and choline supplements. I'm not going to try the L-Dopa because I saw that it's dangerous. http://www.dreamviews.com/f44/mucuna...-l-dopa-35876/
> I'm probably going to try Yohimbine and Alpha-GPC later, but first I want to use the basic G+choline mix. 
> 
> However, I don't know which stores are best in terms of price and quality. I want to make sure that I what's on the label is what's in the pill. Thanks for all of your help.
> 
> Edit:
> I also want Pirecetam. Does anybody know of research into other nootropics? Also, the need for a good store in terms of quality and price applies to the pirecetam as well.



got mine from dreamamins

----------


## Robot_Butler

I get insomnia from galantamine every now and then.  It is not unpleasant.  I find myself in a trance-like state, similar to an NREM dream.  I am constantly aware of my body, but still have vivid hallucinations that feel like tangible day dreams where my thoughts come alive.  It is similar to the beginnings of a WILD.  I am halfway in the dream, halfway awake.  It sounds frustrating, but it is actually very interesting.

I have been having a rash of these types of galantamine dreams for about a year.  I recently switched back to swallowing a capsule instead of dissolving it in water, and I am now back to more traditional "instant sleep paralysis and vibration"  type of galantamine WILDs.  I wonder if dissolving it in water was what was causing these weird half-dreams.  It is like it never quite kicks in all the way.  I will keep trying both to see if there really is a pattern.  Maybe I should stop advising people to dissolve it in water.

My best cure for insomnia is reverse blinking.  It helps stop my internal dialogue and looping thoughts. Thirty seconds to a minute of this, and I am right on the edge of sleep.  It is pretty much required for me to have a successful WILD with galantamine.

----------


## zhineTech

> I am constantly aware of my body, but still have vivid hallucinations that feel like tangible day dreams where my thoughts come alive.  It is similar to the beginnings of a WILD.  I am halfway in the dream, halfway awake.  It sounds frustrating, but it is actually very interesting.



good description of how i often feel from the G.

----------


## NrElAx

I know exactly what robot_butler is saying. A lot of times, I would literally go in and out of lucids. One second, id be in my bed, and like two seconds later id be lucid in my bedroom. I'd go in and out of this multiple times either till I fully go into a lucid dream, or I completely wake up. I can tell im lucid in my room because my room is usually always pitch black. I had this happen this morning once, where I woke up in my room and moved around a bit, and then about 5 seconds later, I woke up for real, not knowing that I was just dreaming.

----------


## Matte87

Am I the only one who feels like G+C changes your perception of time? 3 hours of sleep after a WBTB feels more than an entire night worth's of sleep. Even if I don't dream much, it stills makes me feel like time is moving by much slower.

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## NrElAx

Yea I know what your talking about. These pills just make half my night of sleep a crazy adventure. Well my order should be coming in tomorrow, and im super excited because I haven't used this stuff since last December. I screwed up my tolerance so I took some time off. Well I took a little too much time off, but know its like I never tried them before. So my experiences should be pretty good. And I know that know im going to get lucid a lot more because I have been getting a more lucids lately. I should update my LD count sometime.

----------


## shooshtime

> Yea I know what your talking about. These pills just make half my night of sleep a crazy adventure. Well my order should be coming in tomorrow, and im super excited because I haven't used this stuff since last December. I screwed up my tolerance so I took some time off. Well I took a little too much time off, but know its like I never tried them before. So my experiences should be pretty good. And I know that know im going to get lucid a lot more because I have been getting a more lucids lately. I should update my LD count sometime.



If you are worried about your Tolerance try mixing up what you are taking instead of the same combo. Give Huperzine A a shot if you want something else that works closely to the G+C combo. Do a little research and let me know what you think.

GL on the ld's!

----------


## NrElAx

> If you are worried about your Tolerance try mixing up what you are taking instead of the same combo. Give Huperzine A a shot if you want something else that works closely to the G+C combo. Do a little research and let me know what you think.
> 
> GL on the ld's!



Yea I can give that a try. Im also only going to take the combo twice a week or three times max.
Edit: hmm I looked up the Huperzine A and its also a acetylcholine inhibitor, well it wasn't exactly called that, it had something else added to the choline part, but you know what I mean. I read that it also enhances memory and they're looking into it for helping people with Alzheimer's, so its seems pretty damn similar. I will defiantly look into buying it. Does it work just as well as the G&C combo. I've tried Alpha gpc on its own because im waiting for my galantamine to come in, but it doesn't work as well. I use to combine that with the g&c for an extra boost and it works really well. Some people have tried it on its own and its worked for them. But I might have to buy the stuff you mentioned because it seems promising. Im surprised no one else has mentioned that stuff.
Edit again: I just ordered it because I read a review saying it worked just as well as galantamine and may actually make the lucids longer. Wow, can't wait to try it. Thanks for mentioning it. Ands its much cheaper. Oh, and has anyone tried California poppy extract. I read that a lot of people have got long lucids from it, so I ended up ordering it because it was only 9 bucks. You have to take like 30 drops of it, but you can always mix it with a drink.

----------


## Darkmatters

I remember Yuschak mentioning Huperzine in his book, but he said it wasn't nearly as effective. You ought to check what he had to say about it. 

Isn't Opium made from poppy seeds? That might be something you want to avoid.

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## NrElAx

> I remember Yuschak mentioning Huperzine in his book, but he said it wasn't nearly as effective. You ought to check what he had to say about it. 
> 
> Isn't Opium made from poppy seeds? That might be something you want to avoid.



The California poppy I believe does not produce opium. Hence the word California lol. I dont think they would grow opium poppies in California, because then people would be trying to make heroin hahah.

----------


## Darkmatters

Ok, I don't know anything about it really, just wanted to urge caution.

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## NrElAx

> Ok, I don't know anything about it really, just wanted to urge caution.



Well thanks for looking out man.

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## shooshtime

> I remember Yuschak mentioning Huperzine in his book, but he said it wasn't nearly as effective. You ought to check what he had to say about it. 
> 
> Isn't Opium made from poppy seeds? That might be something you want to avoid.



I believe it's based on the individual, I've personally have great experiences with Huperzine so i'd recommend anyone who is interested to give it a shot or mix it up with your other combos and see how it works for yourself.

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## shooshtime

> Yea I can give that a try. Im also only going to take the combo twice a week or three times max.
> Edit: hmm I looked up the Huperzine A and its also a acetylcholine inhibitor, well it wasn't exactly called that, it had something else added to the choline part, but you know what I mean. I read that it also enhances memory and they're looking into it for helping people with Alzheimer's, so its seems pretty damn similar. I will defiantly look into buying it. Does it work just as well as the G&C combo. I've tried Alpha gpc on its own because im waiting for my galantamine to come in, but it doesn't work as well. I use to combine that with the g&c for an extra boost and it works really well. Some people have tried it on its own and its worked for them. But I might have to buy the stuff you mentioned because it seems promising. Im surprised no one else has mentioned that stuff.
> Edit again: I just ordered it because I read a review saying it worked just as well as galantamine and may actually make the lucids longer. Wow, can't wait to try it. Thanks for mentioning it. Ands its much cheaper. Oh, and has anyone tried California poppy extract. I read that a lot of people have got long lucids from it, so I ended up ordering it because it was only 9 bucks. You have to take like 30 drops of it, but you can always mix it with a drink.



Let me know how it works out for you, I think you will see some good results.

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## NrElAx

My galantamine combo came in today and im going to try it out during my wbtb. So I'll post my results tomorrow. Its been 8 months since I've taken this stuff so im pretty excited because its going to be like taking it for my first time again. I miss waking up into sleep paralysis like this shit always did for me. IM SO EXCITED OMG!!!! I've been getting a decent amount of LDs lately so im very confident I'll get some LDs tonight. Im for surely going to try and DEILD it up. I totally forgot to buy some L-theanine, I think that's what its called lol. That stuff really helps combat the upper affect from the galantamine. Im just worried it will keep me up, but I'll just pop the G&C and go right back to sleep. Im debating whether or not I should set my alarm an hour after taking it so Incan either WILD or DEILD. Im worried if I do that it will keep me up.

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## Darkmatters

I vote for straight back to sleep!! I took Galantamind last night and stayed up long enough to write down my dreams and make a phone call to schedule trash pickup. I was super-sleepy though, and decided to take the G and crash again. I took it and then couldn't get back to sleep. I think it's mostly because I got too much sleep to start with though. Frustrating, cause now I need to wait like  week (I'm going to give it at least a week between attempts from now on). But I'm stoked for you!! Hope you go lucid tonight!!

----------


## NrElAx

> I vote for straight back to sleep!! I took Galantamind last night and stayed up long enough to write down my dreams and make a phone call to schedule trash pickup. I was super-sleepy though, and decided to take the G and crash again. I took it and then couldn't get back to sleep. I think it's mostly because I got too much sleep to start with though. Frustrating, cause now I need to wait like  week (I'm going to give it at least a week between attempts from now on). But I'm stoked for you!! Hope you go lucid tonight!!



Thanks man. When I first tried the combo, I stayed up like people mentioned, but I had a terrible time trying to fall back asleep. So that's when I decided to just pop them, and go straight back to sleep. Although the first few times I did that, I was so excited that I kept myself awake anyways lol. But I find it funny reading some peoples experiences and saying, " oh I took the pills during my wbtb and stayed up for 30 minutes but could not fall back to sleep." Then they do the same thing the next attempt and still can't fall back to sleep. Its like, listen, if you have a hard time falling asleep, then take the pills and go right back to sleep. You can't keep having these long wbtb and expect it to be any different than the time before when it comes to falling back to sleep. You either have to try some l-theanine out, or go right back to bed.

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## NrElAx

Well I only got lucid long enough to do a nose pinch this morning. I had some pretty long false awakenings, but im dumb and didnt realize anything was different. One of them I checked the time on my phone and I swear I had two FA where I did the same thing. Eventually I figured I was dreaming but it must have been near the end of my dream because I woke up soon after.

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## Darkmatters

Do you use mantras or anything? I've reached a point now where, when I do get lucid (as infrequent as that is) I remember to do RCs and stabilize or try to. Next I need to hammer some goals into my head and remember them too.

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## NrElAx

Naw I dont do reality checks anymore cuz I never found them useful. I mean all they really do is confirm your lucid. I got lucid for a bit at least, so im sure next time I take it I'll get lucid. Also, before bed I do silverbullets tutorial or whatever it is . Possibly the key to lucid dreaming, that's the name of the thread .

----------


## NrElAx

I tried again last night at 4:30 am but couldnt fall asleep for about 4 hours. I knew I was going to have trouble falling asleep because I woke up for my wbtb feeling pretty awake. Anyways, I got lucid in my third dream, but I was still going along with the dream. I became lucid in the water and tried to turn into a dolphin. I tried breathing under the water, which worked somewhat. I lost lucidity sometime after doing one more thing.

Also, does anyone know what time im suppose to take huperzine A. During wbtb or before bed? Im guessing during wbtb because it keeps you awake just like galantamine.

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## Rozollo

On my last attempt, I took 5-HTP before bedtime, two 4mg of galantamine/200mg of choline, and two 300mg of alpha-GPC during a WBTB. My dreams were more vivid but nothing lucid. 

Going to try again on Friday night. I cannot get a good WILD technique.

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## TheForgotten

Mzzkc wrote a guide on WILDs which I found pretty helpful at explaining the ideal conditions to manifest such a beast: http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/mzzkcs...-guide-105484/

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## Rozollo

I think I read that, but I will give it another try. Thanks!

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## zhineTech

Recent WILDing on the G dream entry. Probably the longest transition I have ever experienced:

GLD.movieTheater - cloudBattle - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

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## Matte87

It gives you an easier time to WILD since you can't fall asleep that easily. I often end up in SP when I take this if I can't fall asleep right away. Once again I have to say I'm blown away by the amount of information your brain receives after taking one of these.

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## NrElAx

Matt what do you mean by the information the brain receives after taking this. Do u mean it helps your memory in real life. I've noticed my shirt term memory is getting better after get ruined from smoking weed in high school lol.

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## yuppie11975

WHat is this Galantamine + Choline?
Is it an american thing? Is it dangerous? And what is it normally used for?

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## Darkmatters

Hey, there's a whole thread you can read to find out!  :Pfft: 

It's actually used for Alzheimer's patients to help with memory. It's not an American thing - Alzheimer's knows no boundaries nor does pharmacology. But you have to buy it on the internet - if you walk into a drug store and ask they'll tell you you need a prescription and look at you like this:

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## yuppie11975

Haha, cheers Darkmatters.
I had no intention of shifting through 37 pages to find out what it is.

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## Darkmatters

You should read some of it anyway.. pick any 5 consecutive pages somewhere in there. There's a lot of really important info in this thread, which tends to get repeated over and over, but anyone wanting to mess with the big G should know this stuff. Also get Advanced Lucid Dreaming: the Power of Supplements by Thomas Yuschak or try to find the online PDF version.

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## NrElAx

Just read page 1 lol. I actually read through most of the pages once I found out how much success people had with it.

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## zhineTech

> WHat is this Galantamine + Choline?
> Is it an american thing? Is it dangerous? And what is it normally used for?



yeah, there is a thread around here about that somewhere.....

heh

this is a good breakdown / review
Review of Galantamine: the Lucid Dreaming Pill | dream studies portal

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## yuppie11975

Thanks man ^^^^^^

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## Robot_Butler

It is not exclusively an American thing, but I know it requires a prescription in some countries.  I don't want to guess which ones.  Just poke around a bit on the internet to find out if it is legal in your country.  I doubt anyone will track you down if you buy it on the internet, but you never know...

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## Matte87

Once again I'm amazed by how much this messes with my perception of time. One hour of time feels like an eternity. This with time dilation perhaps? Does anyone know what you can combine with this to have an easier time falling asleep? I usually wake up an hour after falling asleep after my WBTB when I've taken G+C. Very hard to go back to sleep then.

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## NrElAx

Have you tried L-Theanine. Also, do you stay up after you take it or do you go straight back to sleep. What I do is go straight back to sleep and then set my alarm  to wake me up an hour later. That way I usually wake up in sleep paralysis and have an easier time going back to sleep once it has peaked. I took a 8 month break from this stuff, but for some reason I doesn't work as well as it did originally.

----------


## Matte87

I always wake up one hour after falling asleep, and during my WBTB I always take the G+C pill right before going back to sleep. Might try some L-Theanine.

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## NrElAx

Yea I dont know anything else besides what I mentioned. I've been having trouble lately and been waking up two hours after taking it and not being able to fall back asleep.

----------


## TheWatcher

I've been doing the G+C and L-Theanine about once a week for the past 5 weeks and the first few times were pretty awesome. However, the last two times I could not go back to sleep! I'm usually too excited, hence why I added the L-Theanine but for some reason I just could not get to sleep. I would lay there for about 2 hours feeling tired and like I could go to sleep, but it just never happened. 

For those that have been taking this combo for a while, is this how it is when you build up too much tolerance? I'm thinking I should give this a rest for maybe a month or so and come back to it and see if it's any different.

Also, any recommendation on what you guys do to make sure you can actually go back to sleep after taking these pills?

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## NrElAx

Just make sure you go to bed right after taking it. I got a tolerance towards it and took an 8 month break, and for some reason, It still doesn't work well for me anymore. I dont know if once you screw up your tolerance, then you'll never feel it again. I mean when you build a tolerance towards things, sometimes it can take years to get back to where you were at the beginning.

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## SleepyKitty

> Just make sure you go to bed right after taking it. I got a tolerance towards it and took an 8 month break, and for some reason, It still doesn't work well for me anymore. I dont know if once you screw up your tolerance, then you'll never feel it again. I mean when you build a tolerance towards things, sometimes it can take years to get back to where you were at the beginning.



I've noticed a decrease in the effectiveness of G+C combo when I have excess stress or my mind is more focused on other things.  

How many recent attempts with G+C have failed you?  

 I used to take G+C combo every 3/4 days for about 6 months with great success.  I take the combo less frequently due to life events.  Every now and then i'll take the G+C combo and it will still work a good 95% of the time.

Sometimes over thinking mantras and achieving lucidity can be a detrimental thing for me.  I definitely notice an increase in the duration and clarity of my lucid dreams when I take the G+C combo in a "casual" manner e.g. not stressing becoming lucid.

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## NrElAx

I've had somewhat success my last two attempts. Before, I was usually able to wild easily in the past in this stuff, but I've found out now, that I have to vild now in order to get into the lucid. And like this morning, I would barely get into the lucid. I would have to visualize myself rubbing my carpet(I always visualize that because its easiest) and then id get into the dream,.but it would be so unstable, even if I use my senses. This will go on, back and forth for like 30 minutes. Me just going In and out of lucids, and i sometimes just scare myself out because i get an eerie feeling in the lucid lol.

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## etheric83

*To all those who are succssful lucid dreamers with Galantamine: I've tried probably 10 times now, but haven't had much success.   I bought some from ebay, and then some from relentlessimprovement, but haven't really noticed anything to the tune of conscious lds/obes. shock:

First, I take 150-200 mg. 5-Htp before bed with melatonin. 5-htp supposed to suppress R.E.M., but I still had one or two dreams I remember. Then, I take 8-16 mg. Galantamine 3-4 hrs. after sleep, with choline(500 mg.), and alpha gpc. I've tried this several times. Most I had was a sleep paralysis, something that has happened to me every now and then naturally, w/o supplements. Maybe it's just a supplement that doesn't affect me much. 

I wish someone who has success with this and has a good heart could find the answer for me in a conscious l.d.(connecting with your spirit guide) on my behalf...and I will do something for you in return, spiritural or financial( I have a little $ if u are in need) or whatever. Please, I've tried everything besides galantamine, including crystal gemstones(even so called most powerful moldavite angel chimes from heaven& earth--no effect) binaural/subliminal/ap cds, smoking salvia(seems to be hallucinations, not real obe), dxm from cough medicine, etc. Get back to me asap. thanks*

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## NrElAx

Well I had pretty good success with my first bottle, but I can tell you that you probably shouldn't be taking 16 of it. That's going to just screw up your tolerance and then the stuff wont work for you. How many times have you tried 8 mg of it?

----------


## Darkmatters

Yeah, it's not recommended to go over 8 mg. 

And it's also very important to be practicing RCs and thinking about lucidity a lot - and especially as you're going to sleep.

----------


## etheric83

> Well I had pretty good success with my first bottle, but I can tell you that you probably shouldn't be taking 16 of it. That's going to just screw up your tolerance and then the stuff wont work for you. How many times have you tried 8 mg of it?



Uh, I took 8 mg at first but didn't notice much, so I upped it to 16 mg. I wonder if some people just aren't as sensitive to it.

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## NrElAx

Your taking it after at least 4 hours of sleep right? You should try and take the pills and set your alarm for an hour later after taking it to try and get into sleep paralysis.

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## etheric83

3-4 hrs. You mean to say, after waking after 4 hrs., set alarm for an hr to get in s.p.? I don't find that necessary as it takes a while to get back to sleep after taking galantamine anyway. I'd love to hear about the conscious lucid dream/obe experiences of those successful though.

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## NrElAx

What I was saying was, do your wbtb ( when i take the g&c, I just wake up and pop them, and then go right back to sleep) and then set your alarm for and hour later. After you have the alarm set, go back to sleep, and usually what will happen is, you'll wake up into sp or be able to get right into sp. I dont even need an alarm anymore cuz i wake up automatically after and hour now . My last two attempts were successful, but very short lucids. Both DILDs, and the fourth one, i became lucid in my family room, but right when i got off my couch , the dream faded, and i woke up. On a side note, i had an amazing dream this morning that i was flying in a jet and then ejected and parachuted to a city. After that i woke up and checked my phone to see the time and it said 9:25 am so i went back to bed. Literally a second later i woke up and checked my clock again and it said 9:54. The first time i checked the time was a Fing false awakening and i didnt even realize lol.

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## Dr Who

I've become so enthusiastic about how well Galantamine and Alpha GPC work that I've decided to manufacture my own according to Thomas' great book.

I'm selling it here: Lucidrene - your key to lucid dreaming

Having tested the formulation for quite a few months I can confirm that, for me at least, it works like no other !!

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## miggsy

I tried lucid dreamer tabs last night and had some extrodinary results.I would recommend them to anyone who has practiced lucid dreaming before.

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## 61284

Greetings folks - I've read Thomas' book and as per recommendations have tried the wake and dose method for lucidity using Choline and Galantamine on 4 separate occasions (with requisite recovery time in between) and each time I've ended up in a state that verges on falling asleep and staying awake.

It's hard to describe but its like my mind is about to go to sleep but I can still feel my body with little bitty fragments of dream interspersed here and there. It seems like one of the supplements (possibly Galantamine?) is giving me this reaction as it feels like I'm tweaked when I take it. 

I don't use any other supplements like marijuana, caffeine or chocolate so could it just be sensitivity? Any advice would be appreciated on how to get around this factor to achieve lucidity - Thanks

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## Darkmatters

How much are you taking? You might need to lower the dose. Galantamine makes it hard to get back to sleep plus a little too much of it makes you too aware. 

I kind of enjoy even the G experiences where I don't quite fall asleep - you still have some cool sensations and those little dreamlike moments are cool.

Also, are you doing wake back to bed? A lot of people (me included) find it's best to take it and go right back to sleep - cause by the time it's kicking in you won't be able to. The stimulant effect of galantamine sees to that. Apparently some people can get back to sleep after staying up for an hour on G, but I'm not one of them.

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## Sageous

61284:

I've found that a bit of melatonin a few minutes before I take the G helps me stay asleep...

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## Robot_Butler

> each time I've ended up in a state that verges on falling asleep and staying awake.
> 
> It's hard to describe but its like my mind is about to go to sleep but I can still feel my body with little bitty fragments of dream interspersed here and there.



I know exactly what state you are referring to.  I get stuck here more often than I would like.  It is frustrating, but not entirely unpleasant.  I find I can still enjoy and interact with the dream.  The dream feels more like a vivid daydream.  It is almost like I am too lucid, which leads to constant awareness of my real body in bed.  

I wish I had a solution.  If you find a way of solving this, let me know.  My best advice is to just enjoy the meditative state of mind.  Think of it as another type of dreaming.  Although I feel like I am not really sleeping, I never end up feeling sleep deprived the following day.  The only time it sucks is when I become frustrated and start to struggle, mentally.

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## NrElAx

> I know exactly what state you are referring to.  I get stuck here more often than I would like.  It is frustrating, but not entirely unpleasant.  I find I can still enjoy and interact with the dream.  The dream feels more like a vivid daydream.  It is almost like I am too lucid, which leads to constant awareness of my real body in bed.  
> 
> I wish I had a solution.  If you find a way of solving this, let me know.  My best advice is to just enjoy the meditative state of mind.  Think of it as another type of dreaming.  Although I feel like I am not really sleeping, I never end up feeling sleep deprived the following day.  The only time it sucks is when I become frustrated and start to struggle, mentally.



Ive had similar problems. I'll get in the dream somewhat, and its like im halfway in between the dream world and the real world. And the other day, I finally got into the dream and jumped out this window onto  a parking garage roof, but then like always, the dream became unstable and I woke up. Happens all to often.

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## vojkeBDP

I have just started to take Galantamine and Choline for the first time. First time I took 5-htp (100mg) before bed, and then slept for 3 hours after naturally waking up (3:15am) and stayed up for 15mins, took galantamine (8mg) and choline (500mg) and went to bed, I was probably too excited to fall asleep, but I eventually did after about 1.5h (4:30am). I experienced WILD (intense buzzing in the ears and levitating out of bed) and kept having false awakenings. I was lucid but it was very fuzzy. I had decent recall, but it was just fuzzy during most of my dreaming.

Second time I waited  5 days and did the same thing, (5-htp before bed, galantamine + choline WBTB) but this time I took L-theanine (125mg) right after I woke up after 4 hours of sleep (6am). I stayed up 5 mins and took the galantamine + choline and this time I was awake for about 2 hours before falling asleep (8am). I had a WILD again (I'm able to become lucid when I feel a extreme buzzing in my ears, like last time). But again my dreams were fuzzy. The weird thing was, my dreams only lasted for about 10 seconds and then I ended up in my bed again, but I wasn't sure that it was a false awakening until I heard the buzzing in my ears and then I was lucid again. This repeated about 5 times. It's possible that outside traffic and lights kept waking me up since this was after 8am.

I would like to know why my dreams were fuzzy. (could it be the 5-htp?) Also if it's possible to fall back asleep faster. (should i just take the galantamine + choline immediately after WBTB and go right back to sleep?) I also took B-Complex Vitamins (Timed Release) in the morning both times, if it matters. Thanks for your help, I'm relatively new to lucid dreaming. I find galantamine + choline is still the best success for lucid dreaming.

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## Darkmatters

> I would like to know why my dreams were fuzzy. (could it be the 5-htp?)



I'd say more likely it's the Galantamine. A little too much makes you too aware and it's like being partially awake. I always struggle with effects of this when I take G - getting too much real-body signals such as the feeling of cloth all over my body translating into me wearing a robe slippers and mittens in the dream, or having difficulty walking as if I'm drunk or difficulty seeing right or thinking. Basically it's as if I'm drunk all too often when I take G. Try cutting back to half the dosage - the idea is to take the smallest dose that will work for you and no more. 





> should i just take the galantamine + choline immediately after WBTB and go right back to sleep?



Yes. And incidentally, it's not called WBTB unless you stay up for like an hour trying to engage your logic circuits. You just want to wake up - not any more than you need to - try to move as little as possible. You want to get as close as possible to doing a DEILD, except that of course you need to move a little in order to take the capsule. Keep one out laying next to you so you don't have to unscrew the lid off the bottle - have some water on the table ready to go etc. A lot of us find that once we wake up fully the G being a stimulant tends to make it impossible to fall asleep again, sometimes for the rest of the night. So the idea is to try to be asleep again before it starts to kick in, which begins like 20 minutes after taking it if I remember right and peaks about an hour after taking. 

What do you mean when you say you took the B-complex "in the morning"? Do you mean when you woke up to take the G? After you got up for the day? Or do you mean the morning before the attempt? 

From what I've read, at least concerning B-6, you should NOT take it at the same time as you take the G - it can cause it to metabolize in your stomach rather than your brain, and that will ruin its effectiveness. In fact Thomas Yuschak recommends taking B vitamins the morning BEFORE an attempt (or possibly a little while before going to bed - like maybe an hour before bedtime), so they're still in your system but have fully metabolized by the time you take Galantamine.

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## vojkeBDP

> What do you mean when you say you took the B-complex "in the morning"? Do you mean when you woke up to take the G? After you got up for the day? Or do you mean the morning before the attempt?



Yea I took the B-complex during the day *before* the lucid dreaming attempt like Yuschak said in his book.

I tried WILD for the third time now with G+C, this time I was awake for almost 3 hours before falling asleep. At first I had the buzzing in my ears again but I couldn't move, I couldn't transition into dream state. But eventually I did after a while, and I had a long lucid dream this time, it started off pretty clear but then it quickly got fuzzy and my recall got worse as the dream progressed. Maybe it seems that the G is wearing off by the time I get to sleep?
Maybe I should try your advice next time. In order to preform DEILD, would I need to set my alarm an hour after taking G+C, or do I just get into SP automatically when the Galantamine kicks in? I read some threads about DEILD, but I'm still not too sure how it works with supplements. And I remember Yuschak only talking about WILDs and DILDs when using supplements, with WILD being the main method. Thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it.

I was inspired to do Lucid Dreaming after I watched the movie Inception and took B-complex vitamins before going to bed; I had the most vivid lucid dream that night, but I woke up because I got too excited, and then I couldn't get back to sleep. No lucid dreaming induction method, no G. I just wonder why that was more intense and vivid than with G+C and WILD WBTB technique (three times now). I don't mean to be spoiled or anything but I just want to know if I'm using the supplements correctly in order to obtain high level LDs.

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## LDKid

Try sleeping for an extra hour before taking the G

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## Rosewhip137

I've been reading through this thread over the past week, and received my galantamine/choline combo from dreamamins two days ago.

The first night I took only half a pill, so 2mgG+100mgC, and got to sleep paralysis several times, but never made the transition. However, I did have the longest, most vivid dream since starting my dreamwork up again a month ago. It was a great experience.

Last night however I woke up after 4 hours and took a full pill, laid on my back for about an hour before losing consciousness. There was a brief moment where I woke up in a forest on my back, with donkeys roaming about, the detail was incredible, but when trying to get off the ground I wound up back in bed (no FA, I checked). 

Now the strange part comes after I drift into a real sleep, I found myself jumping in and out of the same dreams (inception-esque I guess) went from dream 1 to 2 to awake back to 2 to 1 and to 2 again. During this entire 1or2 hour ordeal, I felt (like I saw NreLax post about many pages back) incredibly drunk. Like, WASTED, I remember saying in the dream to a DC that I felt as if I had chugged 13 martinis, it was horrible and I was falling all over the place I couldn't enjoy the dream in the least. Upon waking, I had a much weaker feeling of the "drunkness" than in the dream, I guess it was the hangover many talk about. 

I'm confused as to the dramatic difference between last night's ordeal, and the previous night's spectacular dream, should I just stick to 2/100mg, or do you think I just had too much G/C built up in my body from the repeated use (would only have totaled 6/300mg respectively). Regardless, I'm taking a couple days off before I try again.

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## Darkmatters

> Maybe I should try your advice next time. In order to preform DEILD, would I need to set my alarm an hour after taking G+C, or do I just get into SP automatically when the Galantamine kicks in? I read some threads about DEILD, but I'm still not too sure how it works with supplements. And I remember Yuschak only talking about WILDs and DILDs when using supplements, with WILD being the main method. Thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it.



Sorry, didn't see this until now. 

Hmm, that sounds complicated - I was just talking about waking as little as possible, almost not moving, taking the capsule and getting immediately back to sleep so it's as close as possible to a DEILD. I suppose you could also set an alarm for an hour later, though that would involve a lot more movement and thinking. But keep in mind - a DEILD technically IS  a form of WILD. It's just a wild after a brief momentary awakening. Of course, a DEILD attained this way would happen before the G+C kicks in. My main concern is just to get back to sleep before it kicks in and the stimulant properties of it keep you awake.





> There was a brief moment where I woke up in a forest on my back, with donkeys roaming about



That sounds awesome! 





> ... incredibly drunk. Like, WASTED, I remember saying in the dream to a DC that I felt as if I had chugged 13 martinis, it was horrible and I was falling all over the place I couldn't enjoy the dream in the least. Upon waking, I had a much weaker feeling of the "drunkness" than in the dream, I guess it was the hangover many talk about. 
> 
> I'm confused as to the dramatic difference between last night's ordeal, and the previous night's spectacular dream, should I just stick to 2/100mg, or do you think I just had too much G/C built up in my body from the repeated use (would only have totaled 6/300mg respectively). Regardless, I'm taking a couple days off before I try again.



Yeah, it's not a good idea to take it 2 nights in a row. Try taking a week off in between attempts. At least a few days minimum.

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## Magus2003

Nasty stuff, tried many times, but always makes me ill the next day or two...
It works, don't get me wrong, but my guts do not like it.

 :Sad:

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## ShadowOfSelf

First night trying this shit, i want to say its the last, but i just bought a whole pack of it...
So roughly 4 and half hours after sleep i took one, and went straight back to sleep.
Only to lay wide awake for 3 hours. When i have work the next day, my whole night, and day is effectively fucked now.
My fault to do it on a work night i know, but then again, i didnt expect it to keep me wide awake for 3 hours.

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## tommo

You're meant to take it during the day.  It has a mentally stimulating effect.

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## ShadowOfSelf

> You're meant to take it during the day.  It has a mentally stimulating effect.



? For alzeimers maybe, everywhere i've read for lucid dreaming including this thread mostly recommend taking it in wbtb, as it doesnt last if you take it before sleep, apparently. I thought i'd go for it seeing as im usually a deep sleeper, but no..

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## jacal1

For me this combination helped me remember my dreams, perhaps because they were more dynamic and filled with emotion.  However, they did not make it any more likely that a dream would be lucid.  My advice, similar to many others is that these may be better for those who have already learned how to turn their dreams lucid, and not the best for people just starting out who think that they are a shortcut.

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## Astrosomnia

> During this entire 1or2 hour ordeal, I felt incredibly drunk. Like, WASTED, I remember saying in the dream to a DC that I felt as if I had chugged 13 martinis, it was horrible and I was falling all over the place I couldn't enjoy the dream in the least.



I just ordered my first bottle of Galantamind, so I'm looking pretty forward to experimenting with it and seeing what outcomes I happen across.

That experience you talk about has happened to me a couple of times when I'm on the verge of lucidity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's like my real body is fighting with the dream body. I find it impossible to talk, walk or even see properly; it's like my face is paralyzed and I can only get out garbled words. It's really pretty distressing. A real chore to do anything.
I've put it down to a mismatch in the wiring between the brain understanding what's real and what isn't.

*Recent similar example:* The other night I had a false awakening where I was looking at a roof. I did a RC and felt my hand move to my nose, pinch it and breathe, but my hands were invisible. I sat up in my bed and _felt_ myself sit up but was still only seeing the roof- like my vision was trapped in one position. Later on I realised that I'd in fact been lying with my eyes open and was seeing my waking-life roof but my consciousness (and senses) was in the dream world. I imagine if I'd tried to speak, I would have faced that same garbled nonsense feeling. I was just a bit more awake this time than other times it's happened.

Not really sure if there's anything that can be done about it. Maybe just the usual trying to ground yourself tricks- but spinning or rubbing your hands is pretty difficult when you can't even move.

Keep me posted on whether or not it happens again while you've taken G- I'm really interested to find out, seeing as I've experienced the same sensations.

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## Darkmatters

Oh I've experienced exactly that on Galantamine! Several times in fact. Let me dig up the links to the relevant DJ entries...

** edit

The entries called Paralyzed and Blind are two of the dreams where I experienced problems like you mentioned: http://www.dreamviews.com/f107/becau...ml#post1392479

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## NrElAx

I've had experiences on this stuff where I'll go in and out of my real body and lucid body. Like I'll get into a lucid halfway and then ill go back to my real body and this will go back and forth for a while.

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## ShadowOfSelf

Im cautious to have another go at it, if it fucks up my sleep it fucks up my whole day at work so will have to wait it until the weekend.

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## Darkmatters

Yeah, definitely don't do it on work nights!

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## Matte87

I don't seem to get any side effects from the pills which is nice. I do have a hard time falling asleep once I take the pill, but I've started taking some L-Theanine along with it which helps me fall asleep like I should. Going to take some tonight if I can wake up 6 hours into sleep, don't want to wake up my girlfriend with the alarm  :smiley:

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## Astrosomnia

Mine arrived this morning! I'm going on a trip for the next four days, so I won't get a chance to try them but I'm keen to see how they go. Will keep you guys updated.

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## OperationIcarus

Hey guys. I've been following this thread for a while now. I got myself some Galantamind 4mg and some Choline Bitartrate 500mg. 

I tried them last night. Got my head down at 2230, slept untill 0300, woke up and took Galantamind 4mg, Choline Bitartrate 500mg and L-Theanine 150mg to help me get back to sleep. 
I took them and tried to go right back to sleep. I think I was buzzing with excitement and Galantamine is a stimulant from what I've read on here so it took me about an hour to get back to sleep (maybe I will try 300mg L-Theanine when I try again in 96 hours) 
When I did get back to sleep I didn't have any LD as such but my dreams seemed like they meant a lot more to me then they normally do. I woke up and really thought a long time about what I experienced. It was a positive experience non the less even though I didn't attaint lucidity.
I am going to try WILD next time. My question is, I'm quite a big build. Should I try increasing the Galantamine up to 8mg? 
I also took 2400mg of Piracetam as soon as I woke up.

I have had two OBEs on my own in the past. I just wanted to experiment with Galantamine and see what its all about.

Cheers guys

Icarus

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## Darkmatters

Sure, try it with 800 and see if it makes a difference. There were plenty of times when I'd take 400 and get nothing, or just a slight effect, then wake up and take another cap and end up having a lucid. 

Take note though, usually when I take 800 my dreams get really messed up - I'm blind, or I stumble around like I:m drunk or all I can do is just lay there mumbling like I'm autistic or something. A couple times I dreamed I was wearing a robe slippers and mittens. So yeah, if 400 can do the trick then go with that, but you might need more. 

It sounds like you already know this, but it's important to also practice your lucid dreaming techniques - whatever ones you use. RCs, mantras, thinking about lucidity as you fall asleep, etc. Have you had any lucids yet? It's definitely best to use Galantamine after already achieving lucidity a couple of times without it.

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## OperationIcarus

Yeah I'll give it a go next time. 
I haven't been practicing LDs but have been doing OBE and AP techniques. They seem to be related. Both of my OBEs were done with WILD techniques through SP. I had one dream where I became lucid but It was very fuzzy. I started flying then a few seconds later I lost track. 
I am deffo going to do more natural work in between Galantamine experiments.

Thanks for the reply.

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## Darkmatters

Alright, sounds like you're at the ideal place to bring Galantamine into your approach. I had had maybe 3 or 4 lucids before I did it. And I just realized, it's been a long time since I've even used Galantamind, and I have a bottle nearly full. I need to bust it out and start trying it again. 

 ::cheers::

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## OperationIcarus

What do you recon to Galantamine? Is it worth it? Obviously learning naturally is the way to go but can this be used to improve anything?

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## ShadowOfSelf

Ok - definetly only take this shiz when you dont have to be up for a certain time or have to go to work.
My second try I got better results (i used a lesser dosage - opened the pill and poured out about 30% of it), took me a while to fall asleep but I must have woken up between 5-10 times towards the end of the night, which turnt out quite good, I was re-entering the same dream again and again, was quite awesome, I was on holiday on a beach, and kept re-entering it but in another situation on the beach. I tried to work a mild into but I just kept passing out then waking up every 20-30 minutes like "shit, i went back there and still didnt realise"
Conclusion - I felt like I had a really light sleep, which wasnt too nice throughout the day, though being able to drift in and out of dreams was quite neat, and I can see how it would benefit with more practise. 
Have to wait another week till I can try it again though.

Thinking about picking up some L-Theanine or whatever it is so I dont sleep _too_ light. I see a few people are using it.
*
Question - my pills are galantamine + choline, will L-Theanine have any negative effects with this combination, anyone tried it?*

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## Darkmatters

It'll be fine . I've used that exact combo and it works nicely - no side effects from adding the L-Theanine except it helps you get back to sleep. Plus of course it's recommended after much testing and research by mr. Yuschak.

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## MushroomTip

just had my first real lucid dream with 100mg of 5-htp at bed time and 8mg galantamind 5 hours later. so awesome!

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## Astrosomnia

*Little update:* I was on a trip over the weekend and took my first ever Galantamind pill at about 5:00am after waking up. There's no doubt in my mind this stuff *would* work a treat, however, while I got _really_ close to sleep, I think it took me too long and I was unable to properly drift off once the pill properly kicked in. I was drifting on the very edge, and at one point nearly fell into sleep. My eyes were REMing like crazy for about 2 minutes as well, even while awake, so I can only imagine how that would've gone down if I were asleep. Alas. I'll try again tonight!

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## ShadowOfSelf

> *Little update:* I was on a trip over the weekend and took my first ever Galantamind pill at about 5:00am after waking up. There's no doubt in my mind this stuff *would* work a treat, however, while I got _really_ close to sleep, I think it took me too long and I was unable to properly drift off once the pill properly kicked in. I was drifting on the very edge, and at one point nearly fell into sleep. My eyes were REMing like crazy for about 2 minutes as well, even while awake, so I can only imagine how that would've gone down if I were asleep. Alas. I'll try again tonight!



Try a lesser dosage maybe

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## OperationIcarus

What does taking 5-htp before bed do to the experience?

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## Darkmatters

Well, in terms of how it works, it stops you from having REM for a couple hours, resulting in REM rebound later in the night. You probably already know that, just throwing it in for anybody new. 

The effect it has for me is long and vivid dreams with a lot of noise going on in the sound track - music or voices that seem to be coming from another room or from behind me or something. It can be a little unnerving, but not frightening. It's like those dreams where you're hearing a radio (sometimes it's really loud) and you're trying to find it to shut it off.

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## OperationIcarus

Thanks. I wasnt sure on what it would do. I'm going to try 8mg gala tonight. Do you think I should take some 5-htp before I go to bed?

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## Darkmatters

Have you done Galantamine by itself yet? Looking back up the page it seems you just started on it. I'd recommend doing just one or the other a couple of times to get used to what it feels like and how you react to it before combining them. Probably better to start out getting used to the G and finding your best dosage first, but feel free to go with the HTP first if you want. Hell, do them both if you want to, but just understand that when you do it that way you're not learning what each chemical does to you independently and things will be pretty haphazard.

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## OperationIcarus

Yeh I spoke to you on saturday morning. Its been 4 days since my first try. I tried 4mg and it didnt work. I think you are right though. Maybe its best if I leave it out this time and just do the gala 8mg and choline 500mg.

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## Darkmatters

Oh ok - you're going for the OBE/AP approach, that's right. 

One thing I highly recommend if you want to mess with supplements is to get Thomas Yushack's book Advanced Lucid Dreaming: the Power of Supplements. In fact I more than recommend it - it should be a requirement for anybody who starts taking galantamine and/or any of the other supplements mentioned on this thread. It requires a good solid understanding of the supplements, how each works, and their possible effects especially when combined. If you google for the book title followed by .pdf you should be able to find a downloadable version online - I think there are more than one. I started out that way but ended u getting a print book too because I wanted to earmark pages and do a lot of highlighting/underlining etc.

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## Astrosomnia

Took a 4mg Galantamind again this morning at around 5:45am (I didn't check because I didn't even want to open my eyes so as to give myself the best possible chance of staying asleep). I took it and tried to relax but, again, my heart started beating really quickly and I got over-excited.
I'm a really light sleeper and have ADHD in addition to being a pretty bad insomniac so I do have trouble getting to sleep at the best of times and, once again, after the pill kicked in it was game-over for me and I was awake for a couple of hours.

Any advice on how to remain cool and collected and actually get to sleep? L-theanine? I've read of a couple of people also having this difficulty and am really keen to experience these as I feel they would definitely help in accentuating awareness.

I have however found that both times I've taken it, once I get back to sleep I have super-vivid dreams. So it's not all bad!

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## WhatsReal

ASTROSOMNIA...Try waking up a little earlier, around 3 a.m that way you are a little more sleepy. I found that when i do a WBTB (wake back to bed) even without the galantamine i sometimes have trouble falling back asleep. If you are trying a wake induced lucid dream it might not be such a bad thing that you cant fall asleep right away, just continue laying still, breathing and using all your awarness to relax your body. the body will probably fall asleep first and the dream will begin.

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## Astrosomnia

It happened!!
The morning of the 27th I took a 4mg pill at 8:30am and managed to get to sleep about 40 minutes later. 
What eventuated is far and away the most intense, vivid, controllable lucid dream I've ever had. 
I managed to chain 8 dreams altogether. The first ones were quite unstable, but I just did DEILD after DEILD (something I've never even done before this) and each one became progressively more stable until I was effortlessly doing awesome things I've never managed in a lucid.
It works, guys. It works real well.

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## ShadowOfSelf

> It happened!!
> The morning of the 27th I took a 4mg pill at 8:30am and managed to get to sleep about 40 minutes later. 
> What eventuated is far and away the most intense, vivid, controllable lucid dream I've ever had. 
> I managed to chain 8 dreams altogether. The first ones were quite unstable, but I just did DEILD after DEILD (something I've never even done before this) and each one became progressively more stable until I was effortlessly doing awesome things I've never managed in a lucid.
> It works, guys. It works real well.



Nice man. I forgot to take mine last night, have to wait a week now.. I had a short lucid though. What time did you go to sleep and wake up all together then?

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## Astrosomnia

I got to sleep at approximately 1:30am, woke up at 7:45, took the pill at 8:30 and then dreamt until 9:45ish.

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## NaoticAngel

Well its April 4th and I have been reading this thread from the beginning for about a week now!  I am only on page 21 at the moment but decided to skip to the last page to make my 1st post on this forum and have discovered that no one has been writing on here for about 2 months! NOOOOOOOO!!!!   ::morecrying::   So I figured I would write anyway and see if the thread comes back to life as it has been so interesting to read over the week!!!!

In short, and not to make this post too terribly long-- I have been into lucid dreaming since i was a wee little girl and have had success rates of about 7-10% to do them naturally.  Of course this isnt nearly enough of a good success rate so for years I have been reading up online what different herbs, barks, potions, supplements I could take to help me dream at least more vividly to kick me into a DILD. Mainly my successes for DILDing are all about mind set, RCs etc...  but on the supplemental/herb side of things natta-zip-nought.  :Sad:   I have ingested enough Calea Z to burn out my bitter tastebud receptors and with it only working once after smoking about 1/2 oz all at once, I gave up (although that was an amazing OBE!!) then i tried the African Root, Silenis or something (I cant remember off the top of my head) I ordered it from Holland by the pound and drank so much of the stuff I broke out into zit-polooza all over my face which took 3 weeks to clear up (both times I did this!!) and not a single vivid dream or experience any different than au naturelle. I have done the whole melantonin thing, but that just makes me sleepy with no improved dream call. B6 is a joke, and the 5-htp kept me up ALL NIGHT and I started to get depressed on it and heart palpatations.  Deffo bad.  I totally gave up smoking pot (which has helped with dream recall at least) i drank about an ocean's worth of mugwort tea to no avail (athough it tastes lovely!!) I even made a damn pillow out of the dried leaves, but nuthin.... need I go on???  so as you can see here, the picture is pretty clear on my track record with supplements. So I just went to drinking pepperment tea which i discovered by mistake that sometimes helps with dream recall and then just tried to improve on my natural methods of trigger events, RCs, bringing my conscience into my dreams best I can. but this is still 10% success at best so i went online to see more info on any supplements i could rape and abuse and aha!! I found this thread!!!! Well I went and bought the GalantaMind online and received that last week. i also have liquid lethicin for the choline (the Galantamind I have is 100mg of choline and 4mg of G per pill) so i need a choline top up as I just wanted to stick with the 4mgs of G to start off with. So all excited WBTB on friday night and took 1 of the GalantaMind pills and a mouth full of liquid lethicin and went straight back to laying down (I did this at bedside with no lights) i wanted to WILD as I have only ever had like 2 successes in my entire life with this method. I always seem to fall asleep 1st.  WOW- this did NOT work for me due to me being so awake you would think I did a gram of crystal meth or something.  i was excited, but really did lots of relaxations techniques and tried to form the HIs into a dreascape for me to enter.  I started to feel the vibrations, but then as soon as an outside noise happened or my husband turned over in bed I would be snapped back into being WIIIIIDE awake.  I eventual fell asleep at some ungodly hour in the morning and just had pleasant flying dreams but nothing lucid. SO- then I was really mad because I had to wait at least 48hrs before having another try!!!!!!   ::morecrying::  ::morecrying::   I have since ordered the Piracentam and an ACME cartoon sized bottle of L-theanine for sleeping.  Those are on their merry way as we speak, but I did try one more time last night (48 hrs after 1st attempt) and this time I did succeed in a small Lucid!!!  Same problem of not being able to fall back asleep and no HIs this time but I think it kicked off with a FA regarding my husband clapping loudly in bed (which I know was just an audial hallucination like the weird buzzing noises you get) but the bit I need to check on when he gets home which I am not sure if it was a dream or not was me waking up from the noise of the clapping and jolting awakw which in turn woke him up with me being all violently waking up in bed and saying something. I remember him being like whats wrong and me apologizing to him saying sorry its just the pills, go back to sleep. I dont know if that bit was real, but straight after i said that and put my head down I went into a lucid dream. I was sleeping on my side as I had given up WILDing at this point in the night and just wanted to sleep. All of a sudden my bedside lamp was on and i was half hanging off the side of the bed, as if I would slither out onto the floor. I was staring at some clothes on the floor and a cardboard box. I then noticed how my body was vibrating all over and it was this that triggered me to know I was trying to slip out of my body. i said to myself "go for it!!" and slid out of my body onto the floor like a snake coming out of its skin. It felt really lovely. i then did something which I never did when I naturally lucid dreasm which was FLOAT.  I always fly. I also having a flying style i usually like to do, but I always fly. This was so different. i just floated and could go anywhere I wanted by intention. I floated up to the upright position and floated to my bedroom wall. I knew I was in the astral body so that i could float through the wall and did so. I floated through the wall into a closet and kept saying to myself how cool this was. i was totally concious in thought. Absolute clarity. then I floated up and out of the house outside. One thing that was different was floating is not fast but more ethereal. I also noticed that no one was around. I also noticed (which I wonder if this is from hypnotic suggestion because I read about it on this thread that a few people experienced blindness when taking Galantamine)  so I found that I started to loose my site as I went into this other house. My site was blind from the middle up.  As if I was wearing a viser really low on my face and all I could see was my feet and the world from looking down with my eyeballs.  I reckon this is because I was sleeping so lightly that I was sort of in a half dream half wake state where a part of my brain was still so very aware of my body.  i could hear my husband breathing by my side and i could feel the constant vibrations on my body. I needed to be in a deeper sleep so to speak. Now that I am aware of this blind issue, i will address it the next time it happens and try to sort it out. I floated around this other house for a bit and then found my slef back in my body full of the vibrations and even an intense vibration on the very tip of my tongue!!! i went inside of my body so I could go to laying on my back to continue with dreaming but this awakened me and by that time I think the Galantamine had run its course for lucidity because I wasted so much time being awake after taking it. I took the pill literally while laying down and dry swallowed it too so that I didnt interupt my sleepyness, but as soon as that pill went in my mouth I was full of energy, especially when trying to WILD. Deffo need the L-theanine!!!!  i wnet back to sleep and had flying dreams but they were normal dreams and not lucid or abnormally vivid or strange in anyway, just normal dreams.  I feel fine waking up, no hangover, although a bit "speedy" I guess. I awoke at 8.30am. Sorry for such a long post but wanted to share my experience on GalantaMind and my blindness issue that some other people have had with this which I thought was curious!

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## spacebaba

Hey everyone! Hey Naoticangel, I like you were reading through this thread but after page 11 decided to hop down to the end and introduce myself. I have been interested in lucid dreaming a for a few years now but It wasnt until this past year I really started practicing. I have had a few spread out throughout the year, mostly having success with the WBTB or naps. My experience with herbs and supplements for LD/ vivid dreams have been a mix bag so far. I have tried Calea Z. (I could not sleep, this stuff had me energetically intense and tuned in but couldnt go deep enough for sleep), mugwort and damiana (sometimes vivid, a mix), b6, melatonin, 5htp... sometimes vivid dreams. I have tried muira puama (not much success for LD), valerian (helps fall asleep at the least, maybe increase vividness).  I have been doing RC this past week (setting timer on phone) and focusing on raising my awareness. I had a rem rebound nap ealier today which was almost developed into LD, heres the story: I drifted off but remained aware and heard this drumming pulling me in. I think it started as me drumming with some friends but then it was just a drum in front of me, and the drum started singing a higher pitch tone song. It reminded me of a shaman who was playing a drum and transforming in a dream I had a few weeks ago. This drumming was pulling me in and I was aware, I felt intense energy rushing through me and particularly building up at the sacral chakra. I managed to float up some but didnt keep the LD stable enough. I was flying a bit but it was fuzzy and I came out of it shortly after. Still another inspiring glimpse! 
Well anyways, I got some galantamine and some choline. Im going to try this out for the first time this weekend. I plan on doing WBTB after 4.5 hours, empty 4mg galantamine  into some water.... take the choline, stay up for 45 mins then go back to sleep and attempt WILD. I have had a couple of successes with WILD in the past. My dream journal has seen a significant increase this past week, ive been recalling a couple dreams a night now. Well anyways, I wish all you fellow travellers the best and am glad to be a part of the community and our explorations in space.

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## NaoticAngel

OMG-n I just wrote out this long response to you Spacebaba and the damn thing erased with an error message when I hit reply.   :Bang head: 

Short version- I was commenting on how I liked how you felt the intense energy of the drum pulling you in and how sometimes I get that feeling with the sun's rays in my dreams, albeit its a rare event. If oyu find it hard to sleep after taking the Choline+G remember that you can order (or even find in a pharmacy i think) L-theanine and take 200-300g with your Choline+G at WBTB. It helps your body relax and go to sleep without interrupting REM (like melatonin can) I found it nigh impossible to get back to sleep with just 4mg of Galantamine and that was taking it at WBTB in the dark, groping blindly at my nightstand for the pill so as to not interrupt my sleep too much, and ramming the pill in my mouth and swallowing dry. But I still couldnt sleep for like 2hrs. God knows if I stayed up for 45min and then tried to go back to sleep. So just food for thought if you find it difficult to go back to sleep!! Loads of luck this week-end with it! Tell us how it went! I found the experience so much different than normal LDs. It felt more like an OBE not a LD. Especially the floating and going through walls and ceilings. It was just so different than anything I experienced in my natural LDs.   ::D:

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## spacebaba

Aww, bummer!!! The sun, wow thats powerful!! Thanks for the advice, Ill go see if I can find some L- theanine tonight. I took aniracetam today, I have been taking it the past few days and piracetam b4 that. Im going to take a break today though. Maybe wait till saturday to try the galantamine. Ill definitely post about it when I do.

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## spacebaba

Couldnt find L theanine. Just tried my first attempt (4mg G +700mg choline). I went to bed around 130-2am. Woke up naturally around 530am. Went back to sleep. Woke up around 615, right before my alarm was set to go off. wrote down my dreams. Took the G+C. Went back to bed listened to induction, then attempted (SILD)... then body relaxation and mantra. Couldnt fall asleep. I could feel that I got pretty awake preparing the galantamine. Ill have it ready next time. After a long period of visualization + body relaxation and mantra'ing. I finally was relaxed enough to where I would drift off a bit and catch myself back in my anchor. Finally I got the loud woooshing and felt intense vibrations and like I was starting to fly. Here was my chance, finally! But Then I either thought about last time or it just happened and when the energy reached my sacral I either blocked it or I got too excited or just started thinking too much. It didnt continue to rise. I gradually came out of it. Im always extremely grateful to have a close encounter like that, so this attempt although not a success was very inspiring. And I feel super relaxed right now!!! I will attempt rem rebound nap and see if I can get lucid later on today. Sweet dreams my friends.

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## shooshtime

Sounds like you were right there! I'm a big backer of the G+C combo, I have a 90% - 95%+ success rate of having a lucid dream after using this combo with a wbtb so it's always exciting when i'm taking my G+C!

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## spacebaba

Thats awesome! Im going to wait a week or until wednesday before I try again with G+C. What do you do after you wake and take?

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## shooshtime

> Thats awesome! Im going to wait a week or until wednesday before I try again with G+C. What do you do after you wake and take?



What works best for me is taking 5htp before I go to bed, I then WBTB approx. 4hours and 30 mins after guessing when i'll fall asleep.

Once I can get my ass out of bed I take my G+C combo and go screw around on *dream views* or other places reading about lucid dreaming and watching videos to get my mind set. I usually say up for about 45 mins knowing it will take me roughly 5 - 15 mins to fall asleep again. Before I go back to bed I take Alpha GPC.

I happened to try last night and had another successful ld which was great as I haven't tried in a couples of months because I've been busy with work.

Hope you have an LD tonight!

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## spacebaba

Thats really great your so consistent!!! Thank you, my nap didnt go lucid. I hardly slept actually. But tonight!

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## insideout

I have been using GalantaMind for a couple of months now with lots of success. The only times it doesn't produce a lucid dream, or very many lucid dreams, is when I have a hard time getting back to sleep. If I get to sleep within an hour after taking it, I can have several long lucid dreams in a row. But sometimes I'll only have one lucid dream, get up to right it down, and then have trouble getting back to sleep and have no more lucid dreams that night.

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## Panthau

I have this bottle of Lucid Dreamer pills since months, but was too scared to try it lol. Tried it finally this morning, but just couldnt fall back to sleep. Well, maybe next time.

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## DREAMER242000

I have excellent results with the pills you mention, i have been a natural lucid dreamer all my
life but my dream recall is generally poor but on the occasions that i take one of these after a
couple of hours of sleep my recall and length of dream is greatly enhanced.

I took one last night and had a really long and enjoyable lucid, personally for me they work
really well.

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## NaoticAngel

I have trouble falling asleep as well with the Galantamind. I find it takes me 2-3 hrs to fall back asleep and I even take 400mg of L-theanine when I WBTB alongside the Galantamind. I only get a snippet of what feels like the vibrations coming on and then I fall out of my body like a snake onto the floor by my bedside. Then I tell myself to float upward and I do, but shortly after its like I am starting to wake up again. I just cant seem to get deep enough into the experience. I do however have 1 or 2 False Awakenings before the whole OBE  type dream. I am always beyond lucid though during this short event I have. I am totally clear in the mind and am aware of whats happening and even know the vibration feelings I am having are the trigger for me to "slide" out of my body, but then I just cant seem to get out of my bedroom much before I wake up. its like Im sleeping far too lightly. I really need to have a chance to sleep after taking the galantamind. I am thinking of taking a microdose of meletonin on WBTB because the L-theanine is relaxing but does not aid me in sleeping. I heard Melatonin prevents REM though  :Sad:   Anyone have any similar experiences with this not falling asleep on galantamind and what they did to fall back asleep? BTW- its only 4mg of Galantamine in the pill and 5-htp keeps me WIIIIIDE awake.

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## LDKid

i thing you might be to excited when you go back to sleep. What i do when i take galantamine is wake up take it go to the restroom and come right back to bed and dont think about anything. I also have a fan in my room just for the white noise it makes, this also helps me sleep better.

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## Robot_Butler

> its like I am starting to wake up again. I just cant seem to get deep enough into the experience.



This is what happens to me.  It is difficult to fall asleep.  Sometimes it feels like I never really fall asleep completely.  I am always aware of my body in bed, and I always have a separate layer of thought that feels completely awake.

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## NaoticAngel

Absolutely nailed it there.  i never seem to get deep enough in a sleep to go and actually DREAM. im always aware of my own body going through SP (which I used to be scared to death of for YEARS, but now have embraced it as a signal to let go and float out of my body) but other than that, I barely can get out of my room before something small like the dog moving on my bed, or my other half turning over on his side, and VWOOP back into my body again and awake.  Last night I decided to WBTB and took 400mg Choline with the Galantamind pill (4mg of G and 100 of Choline) and then I also popped back a tiny crumb (maybe 1/2 mg) of meletonin PLUS 4 mg of L-theanine.  This seemed to help loads with getting back to sleep easier (only about 1.5 hrs max I reckon) and I went straight into SP and slid out of my body and hovered in the top corner of my room looking at the bed where we layed and then went backwards (like being sucked back with a string on my back) away from the room through 4 walls when suddenly my stupid dog decided to get up and MOVE over to my side of the bed and yawn, stomp and make loads of noise which suddenly brought me right back inside my body and awake. This also killed the SP that I was having.  While in my dream body I can always feel the SP sensation of my own body going on and am present in like 2 forms if that makes sense...  Of course after that, the dawn chorus was happening with the birds and i was far too awake to get back to having SP again. Husband also decided to snore on cue as soon as I woke up which left me enraged and yelling at him to turn over  :Bang head:   +siiigh+ so now I must wait another 3 days (I take 2400mg of paracetum in morning)  I am toying with the idea of taking 25mg of sleepeaze which is diphenhydramine.  I always get really good HIs with that. I have only ever taken it on flights and long car rides. I usually take 50mg and never had adverse effects, its really dreamy and seems SO easy to go into a WILD with, but I hear its another one that is a REM suppressant.  Plus I dont want to mix that with the G without knowing the effects, (did that with loads of vodka one night and BIIIIGGGG mistake!) so i might just try 1/2 a dose before bed and then WBTB with the rest of the other concotion next time i do it.  What I really need is a dark-as-fuk room with black curtains and no husband and no dog!!!!! LOL!!

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## spacebaba

Glad you made it further this time angel. diphenhydramine is an interesting idea, i havent looked into whether its suppresses REM or not though. You could try it on the couch or floor somewhere where you wont be disturbed. Maybe there are other herbs that dont suppress REM, i know valerian, chamomile, wild lettuce, passionflower all can help you get to sleep. If I continue to have sleep trouble ill begin experimenting with those to see if they help. I havent tried again yet though. I just got a small sample of Silene capensis im going to try out soon.

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## NaoticAngel

WOO-HOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   ::banana::  

I finally had a series of DILDS/DEILDS in a chain one after the other last night all part of the same dream!  This is what I did.  
went to sleep at 10.30pm
woke up at 1am and by 1.30am I took 1/2mg of melatonin and went to sleep
woke up at 3.00am and took 400mg of choline (as liquid lethicin) and 1 GalantaMind pill that had 4mg of Galantamine and 100mg choline in it, and 400mg of L-theanine.
tried to WILD and went to dreaming in about 1/2 hour

1st Dream was very vivid to begin with and I wasnt lucid for the 1st part of it as I was busy trying to get to sleep in my dream thinking I was still awake. I only realised that i was sleeping in someone elses bed back in a town I used to live in and that, that was not where I went to sleep!!!  So i went lucid, realising I wasnt in my own bed and then got up from the floor where I was laying and told this guy I used to know in real life who was in my dream (in the room where i was in bed) to Fuck Off (I never really liked him much anyways!) and then I proceeded to jump out the window, smashing through all the glass hahaha!!  I went on to do my dream quests totally lucid and I did loads of reality checks.  I even tried rubbing my hands together too, but this was really difficult.  I then went on to look at my reflection whenever I could!! It was strange seeing myself. I looked totally normal and pleasing the first time I looked at myself (in the reflection of a huge steel sword!) but then as I dreamed on I slowly deteriorated hahahaha!!! I was BUTT-FOUL by the end of the dream, but again, I was totally aware that this was not a true reflection of my face and that it was the dream distorting me, and I even went on to ponder as to why i would look like a had melted cheese for skin? I just found it curious and not disturbing.  I had 3 total lucids, but each one was less intense and detailed. they were all connected, so i would wake up and then go back into the dream again each time.  Im so happy!!!! FINALLY the Galantamind worked in a way where I wasnt feeling like i was having an OBE, but a proper REAL DREAM.  I love the OBE experience though with the galatamine, so i am not knocking that, but for me, i kept having problems with not sleeping deep enough to go into a proper dreamstate, and only having the SP feeling and slipping out of my body to float a few yards from my house or within my room before awakening. Even during this experience I was aware of my dream body and my sleeping body at the same time, so for me, it seems that the meletonin helped knock me off into that bit more of a deeper sleep without killing the REM.

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## spacebaba

All right!!! Good to hear angel!

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## stubsy123

So i got my supps recently from dreamamins. Each capsule contains 4mg G and 200 mg C. I thought sensibly and decided it best to start with one capsule. I got 4.5 to 5 hours of sleep before my alarm woke me up. I got up took the cap then went back to bed. I was instantly way to excited and nervous to fall back to sleep. I ended up falling asleep 4 and a half hours later for about an hour with no results. Probably due to the delay of going back to sleep. I've had many ld's all of which naturally occured without wbtb other than one. Now I have the test run done and out of the way hopefully I'll be a lot calmer about it next time. I'll try again in a few days and post up my results. Great info on this thread btw!

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## RationalMystic

This is a very big thread so apologies if this has already been answered but is galantamine available in the uk without perscription and if so how easily available is it?

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## stubsy123

> This is a very big thread so apologies if this has already been answered but is galantamine available in the uk without perscription and if so how easily available is it?



Yes you can get it in the uk via websites. I used dreamamins. A google search of that will get you there. Cost me around 40 quid for 60 capsules and was very fast delivery especially coming from the states. It only took 4 days. I bought the lucid dream capsules as that has the choline in it to.

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## RationalMystic

> Yes you can get it in the uk via websites. I used dreamamins. A google search of that will get you there. Cost me around 40 quid for 60 capsules and was very fast delivery especially coming from the states. It only took 4 days. I bought the lucid dream capsules as that has the choline in it to.



Thank you for the quick reply but what I meant was can you buy it in a pharmacy or something without perscription. Online shopping unfortunatly is not an optio for me at the moment. Also since I'm returning to Ireland soon, do you know anything about the availability of galantamine there?

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## stubsy123

> Thank you for the quick reply but what I meant was can you buy it in a pharmacy or something without perscription. Online shopping unfortunatly is not an optio for me at the moment. Also since I'm returning to Ireland soon, do you know anything about the availability of galantamine there?



I haven't found any in pharmacies in the uk. Most pharmacists give you a puzzled look when you ask about it. I think online will unfortunately be your only option. If you do manage to find a way to buy online send them an email and ask if they can deliver to the part of ireland you will be in. Even if it doesn't state ireland it doesn't mean they wont ship there. In my experience with them they have been good at getting back to me in good time.

Sorry it's such a bother for you I can imagine your frustration.

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## RationalMystic

Actually now that I think about it, I can ask for one of my roomates to shop on my behalf as he buys modafinal occasionally anyway. Thank you for your time and there's no need to apologise for telling the truth  :smiley:

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## shooshtime

This question is for the more experience G+C users, have any of you experimented using more than 8mg of Galantamine? I've been reading some research on the doses that have been experimenting with for Alzheimer's patients and saw some interesting results that made me wonder if anyone else has stepped up their dosage to 12mg , 16mg+ etc... and saw any significant results or none. We use a fairly small amount compared to what they use in their studies and altho it's for a much different reason the study showed some very interesting things about 8mg, 16mg and 24mg usage.

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## MushroomTip

I had somewhat of an unpleasant experience last night with this G+C combo. 

To be exact, I took 8mg of galantamind (8mg galantamine + 200mg choline citrate) and an additional 250mg of Choline bitartrate.
I did proceed to have a lucid dream, but upon waking up, I had a mild headache, I felt lethargic, and I had a jittery sensation like I drank too many energy drinks.

Has anyone else experienced this? Please advise on how I should adjust my dosage. Thanks.

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## stubsy123

My second attempt on C and G was a bit better. I had 5 hours sleep but this time took 8 mg G and 400 C. I had a normal dream then woke up and had a very hard time falling asleep again. A few hours later when I did get to sleep I dreamt I was running round an area where I live but there were spot lights in the floor all along the road I was running on. Something about them caught my attention so I investigated them. I tried to look directly in to the light and it was blinding. Suddenly I went tingly and was buzzing so I knew it was the transition of awareness I always feel when lucid but as I tried to settle in I woke up. Upon awakening I remained completely still which got me back into SP. I found out that SP is very pleasant for me and not intense at all. I waited for the buzzing to settle and could feel my arms went weightless and I had freedom of movement in them but my dream body was still in bed. As I was rubbing my hands together and could feel my arms I thought I was ready to start my adventure so I opened my eyes. BIG MISTAKE. When I tried to open my dream eyes my actual eyes opened slightly allowing light in which woke me up. It took a while to get back to sleep again and when I did it was a non-memorable dream.

I read that L-Theanine is good to help get back to sleep without suppressing REM. Has anyone tried this with success?

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## Zencowboy

Well, I read all the pages before posting and I took notes along the way.  I already read Yuschak book and should have pure G in 8mg capsules in the mail today.  I have everything else and then some...couple days will have GPC too.  

I am familiar with OBE and just want to explore safely with supplements.

I will start with 4mg G/400mg Choline B/250 mg L Theanine.  

Will add GPC on next try.  I have 100grams of piracetam if needed and will try 3x800mg first.

I am also interested to know more about Yuschak successful use of 2000mg L-Aspartic Acid, 4000mg L-Glutamine, 300mg L-Theanine instead of G/C combo.

One poster on here said this about it:
Last night I tried the amino acid combination (2000mg L-Aspartic Acid, 4000mg L-Glutamine, 300mg L-Theanine) for the first time. Wow! It worked extraordinarily well, and I felt like I had an even higher degree of clarity and conscious awareness than I've ever experienced on the G+C combo. Interestingly, the dream also was completely free of any libidinous impulses, which furthers my suspicion that Galantamine can act as a kind of LD-Viagra! I hesitate to put all the blame on it, since my "natural" LDs (achieved without supplements) have sometimes included sexual content, but in the Galantamine dreams it seems like I get seduced into these situations even when I hadn't intended to (or had intended NOT to.)


Anyone else have experience with this 'other' combo?

Thanks!

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## Zencowboy

Well, I had 4 lucid dreams and 5 day dreams before them.  

Took 100mg of 5-htp before bed and around 4-4.5 hours of sleep took 8mg of Galantamine capsule with 400-ish mg of Choline bitartrate and 200-ish mg of L-Theanine
(I have them in bulk powder).

It took around hour to get good and sleepy again once I took them.  Was up around 20 minutes when I took them.  Had the daydreams for that hour then once the thoughts and body got more into light sleep, the lucids began and had control.  I was in buildings around others and was putting my hand through stuff to feel it and flew up in a big room with folks down at tables looking up a little nervous at me. Tried to put my hand through another door but it just opened. Put my hand through the floor once and pulled up a mechanical spider that was neat. I did that by gently rolling out of body on the bed to try that with lucids and once on floor played around.  Saw my image in a mirror...was normal. 

Did not feel any side effects!

I would love to go to places later like multidimensionalman.com has gone to.

Will test out in 3 days.

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## FotoDreamFactor

Somebody here from Germany or EU? I am trying to find Galantine and Choline here in Germany...hmmm is so big difference to America...) Cholin is usually easy to get, but Galantine is a PAIN...you need prescription here!! And what can I say to my Dr.?
Can you Help me Please? Where do u buy here in Germany ? ..order it from another EU country or? If Yes, can somebody send me a link PLEASEEEE!! I found Cholin but only, 100 mg...do I need to take 2-4 Pils?..for I have 200-400 mg...
I must use only Galantine and Choline? or you use something more?  If Yes:
What else do u use?
Regards
Ciprian

*spam link removed

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## alanl

100mg 5-HTP before bed then WBTB 4mg galantamine, 500mg Choline, 600mg Alpha-GPC

Came so close to lucidity but remained only semi-lucid. Very long, vivid memorable dream (best in almost a decade) though so worth it just for that. 

next time need to work on RC's, Dreamsigns, Auto-suggestion etc 

Wont rule out 8mg Galantamine but will stick to the 4mg for now and  try again next week

Its a brilliant supplement combo though - highly recommended

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## alanl

> Somebody here from Germany or EU? I am trying to find Galantine and Choline here in Germany...hmmm is so big difference to America...) Cholin is usually easy to get, but Galantine is a PAIN...you need prescription here!!



I had trouble in UK but was able to order it online. Pack eventually came from India (just 4mg galantamine) Have now also ordered the 8mg galantamind but will take a couple of weeks. Google is your friend :-)

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## FotoDreamFactor

thank Alanl....I use google but....nothing found.. I must buy from Europe because of German Custom: 
Due to Big Pharma influence, German Customs often returns bottles of legal supplements...
You know German Customs is a little bit strange, because of this I wild like to buy in EU...then is not German Customs anymore!!!
can you post the link where u order yours?

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## alanl

Galantamind (Galantamine) (90 Capsules) [LEM-01680] - £109.78 : Vitamin UK, The premier site for healthy living - Galantamind 8mg

GalantaMind ( Galanta Mind ), 4 mg (90 Capsules) [LEM-01880] - £62.36 : Vitamin UK, The premier site for healthy living - Galantamind 4mg

Your Support Center - just galantamine - I ordered 4mg from here too

Its expensive but well worth it. Had a short lucid last night with 8mg galantamind with an extra 500mg Choline :-)

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## Astrosomnia

As a note, and people can feel free to give their opinions- I would definitely recommend only getting the 4mg; that still keeps me awake for ages after taking it and hasn't once failed to give me a lucid (assuming I get back to sleep).

----------


## alanl

> As a note, and people can feel free to give their opinions- I would definitely recommend only getting the 4mg; that still keeps me awake for ages after taking it and hasn't once failed to give me a lucid (assuming I get back to sleep).



Well, last night I had my first supplement DILD and it was using the 8mg Galantamind product with total of 700mg Choline. A bit high dose but it worked. LD only lasted about 5 seconds though. i was so excited to finally break through I foolishly decided to fly and euphoria woke me up after 5 seconds. Still, its a great start.

I think the problem with 8mg though is it has me *too* awake so dreams are short. On the 4mg a narrative dream seemed to last nearly an hour.

On Wednesday I may go back to 4mg Galantamine with 500mg Choline and see how it goes. I can always then try 6mg.

I'm also going to try a new technique for OBE exit in a new book by Frederick Aardema that looks promising (and its a good book that challeneges R Bruce and LeBerge). Will keep updating!

But out of ALL the various supplements I've tried Galantamine and Choline is the best. The stuff really does add rocket fuel to your dreams :-)

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## FotoDreamFactor

thanks Astrosomnia I wil order the 4mg from alanl link...and I will try  with 4mg if I need more I take 2.. :smiley: )....and what I can say is a little expensive from $44.90 to £62.36..hmm  :Sad:

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## alanl

> thanks Astrosomnia I wil order the 4mg from alanl link...and I will try  with 4mg if I need more I take 2..)....and what I can say is a little expensive from $44.90 to £62.36..hmm



If it works then its a small price to pay for LD's or even incredibly vivid dreams IMHO :-) We pay for alcohol and other substances for an altered state so why not some less harmful ones for dreaming purposes. My 20 years of smoking I think had burned out some transmitters and the G+C combo seems to give me the clarity to become lucid and remember great details

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## FotoDreamFactor

uff...so I must quit smoking... :smiley: ))....I go on balcon to burn some transmitters..... :smiley: ) Do u smoke anymore ?

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## alanl

Have you tried a .5mg melatonin or 200mg of L-Theanine with the G+C? Maybe that can help you sleep? I don't seem to notice anything with melatonin but some seem to find it helps. I may try L-Theanine next attempt in a few days once the Galantamine is flushed out (have taken the Piracetam to help that process)

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## Astrosomnia

> If it works then its a small price to pay for LD's or even incredibly vivid dreams IMHO





This.

While I'm a bit worried about the potential of becoming reliant on the things, the ability to quite literally buy lucid dreams is pretty awesome!

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## alanl

Yeah but now around 5 per day, not 20 per day I did between 1990 and 2008 :-S

I'm also considering using a 7mg patch occasionally once I fully know the minimum Galantamine to use :-)

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## alanl

> While I'm a bit worried about the potential of becoming reliant on the things, the ability to quite literally buy lucid dreams is pretty awesome!



I totally agree :-) My first OBE/WILD 20 years ago was accidental but I wouldn't lose that experience or memory for a million pounds - seriously! So to pay around £1-2 for an LD seems excellent value.

I still am working on techniques like MILD, Dream Journal, Auto-suggestion etc so not being *too* lazy  :;-):

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## alanl

> While I'm a bit worried about the potential of becoming reliant on the things, the ability to quite literally buy lucid dreams is pretty awesome!



One other thing, although I'm 'buying' LD's I spend most days with LD'ing on my mind. using this forum is an example. I still think for it to happen you have to *really* want it and your subconscious needs to have the message hammered into it. i find just by taking the supplements as part of WBTB and having journal on bedside table helps with that too

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## FotoDreamFactor

yes, I think you are right alanl...you must also work.....
but holly sheet if I can buy lucid dreams  :smiley: )) why not==??? 
hi,hi... also I use my car,or airplane and not a horse  if I wish to go quickly in another Place ....the questions is if this LD we buy, have another effect, a negative one in time to our body-mind relation `?

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## alanl

> the questions is if this LD we buy, have another effect, a negative one in time to our body-mind relation?



Well, someone more experienced is best to give an answer but so far my 2 G+C nights of dreaming have been vivid, clear, positive and memorable experiences (just with some insomnia thrown in!). I need to make sure I don't take them too often though so it stays that way. I will also add other supps occasionally to keep my brain from knowing *exactly* what its gonna get so have some Yohimbine, Mucuna Pruriens, Nicotine patches, Alpha-GPC to mix things up a bit. I'm also going to take Omega 3 oils daily to help with memory. Also worth mentioning I'm taking 5-HTP 10.30pm before bed so I get REM-rebound. Not sure if thats working as I do seem to have dreams in first half of the night, albeit hard ones to rememeber!

----------


## Marciano999

Hello! after reading many pages and taking some notes, i ordered from dreamamins. In 12 days reading a lot and get into to LD thing, i have had 3 LDs, very shorts one(so i think im doing good, i had 2 lds in 3 days), and now  training to stabalize it. Anyway, i ordered galantamine and choline from dreamamins and my question is, after getting some sleep(4-5hrs), and taking the pills, should i do any techniques to induce the LD? or should i get just back to sleep and expect it to happen? Im not very familiar with WILDS... my 3 LDs so far in this 12 days has been noticing something weird in my dreams and then doing a RC to reconfirm that im into a dream. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks

----------


## meisbored

isn';t that stuff bad for you

----------


## tommo

> Hello! after reading many pages and taking some notes, i ordered from dreamamins. In 12 days reading a lot and get into to LD thing, i have had 3 LDs, very shorts one(so i think im doing good, i had 2 lds in 3 days), and now  training to stabalize it. Anyway, i ordered galantamine and choline from dreamamins and my question is, after getting some sleep(4-5hrs), and taking the pills, should i do any techniques to induce the LD? or should i get just back to sleep and expect it to happen? Im not very familiar with WILDS... my 3 LDs so far in this 12 days has been noticing something weird in my dreams and then doing a RC to reconfirm that im into a dream. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks



 Just keep doing what you're doing  ::D: 
If you've had 3 LD's in your first 12 days just from noticing strange things, you're doing very, very well.





> isn';t that stuff bad for you



It's a very safe drug.  Provided the correct dosage is taken.  Choline is in pretty much everything, so that's not bad either.

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## Marciano999

Im going to start with 1 tablet... which is 4mg Galantamine, 200mg Choline to see how it goes. Planning to do 1 on, 3 off.

----------


## alanl

> Im going to start with 1 tablet... which is 4mg Galantamine, 200mg Choline to see how it goes. Planning to do 1 on, 3 off.



Seems like a very sensible approach. My next attempt will be 4mg Galantamine so I'm less stimulated. Lowe the dose that works the better!

And my experiences so far I haven't had a WILD yet with supps. I fell asleep and realised in dream it was a dream and then BOOM. Everything became clear. Fantastic experience. Not as profound as a WILD/OBE but still amazing so whatever works is good :-)

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## Marciano999

> Seems like a very sensible approach. My next attempt will be 4mg Galantamine so I'm less stimulated. Lowe the dose that works the better!



IM not really sure about it, do you think that starting with 2 tablet will be better?(which is 8mg G, 400 Choline)

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## alanl

> IM not really sure about it, do you think that starting with 2 tablet will be better?(which is 8mg G, 400 Choline)



Nah, start low and if it doesn't work maybe twice then up to 8mg I think. No rush :-) I'm trying 4mg Wednesday.

Iplan on keeping Galantamine attempts to once per week and will keep at the other techniques for other nights. I'm also going to try the amino acid combo but still waiting for one of the amino acids to be delivered

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## BlueWalls

Wow that was a really long read!! 

Right, for people who have difficulties falling back asleep after waking up during WBTB, I may have a solution. I will try it out in a couple of days and let you guys know if it works.  :Shades wink:

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## alanl

> Right, for people who have difficulties falling back asleep after waking up during WBTB, I may have a solution. I will try it out in a couple of days and let you guys know if it works.



It can take me 2 hours so please share! I tried L-Theanine but didn't seem to help.

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## Wolfie893

hmm. dreamamins FAQ says to take before you go to sleep. that's not what everyone else says about galantamine. they're not just chancers hopping on the LD bandwagon are they?

----------


## shooshtime

> As a note, and people can feel free to give their opinions- I would definitely recommend only getting the 4mg; that still keeps me awake for ages after taking it and hasn't once failed to give me a lucid (assuming I get back to sleep).



I started using 4mg, then bumped to 8mg and saw a huge difference. I was sticking to 8mg for quite some time now until about 6 months ago or so when I did a lot more research into tests of higher dosages on patients with ailments that use Galantamine. With that being said i've  tried 12mg and 16mg on and off with 8mg on other nights and my best LD iIve ever had happened to be when I took 16mg. I've only tried 16mg a couple of times so far but every time I do the LD's I have are far superior to the 8mg and even 12mg dosages.

I do notice 12mg produces similar results to 16mg but I haven't tested this out long enough to have a good average yet.

I'm curious if anyone else has in the past or is currently taken 12mg+ of Galantamine with their G+C combo?

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## alanl

> I'm curious if anyone else has in the past or is currently taken 12mg+ of Galantamine with their G+C combo?



Yeah, I've tried 4, 8, 10 and 12

4 occasionally works, 8mg usually works, 12 always makes me lucid BUT I'm so wired I wake up many times. This has benefits in consolidated memories but can be frustrating when after becoming lucid seconds later I'm awake. I also have MANY false awakenings on higher doses. Recently I saw an amazing UFO in the sky and decided I was going to wake up so I would remember its beauty. I told myself to wake up. I then scribbled on my journal. I then realised the room was too well lit for it to be 5am and realised I was still in a dream. I then decided to wake up again and this time I did wake up. On 12mg the confusion between being asleep and awake is incredible. I was convinced I had a 5 min conversation with my partner in bed after a lucid but later that day when I brought the subject up she said no conversation had taken place :-)

I only do Galantamine once per week (as I seem to have tolerance issues any more frequently than that) and tonights the night. I was going to go for 8mg but after reading your post may go for 10mg. I also think Alpha-Gpc is better than Choline Bitartrate. I also have Propranolol but its prescription drug so will not say any more publicly on my views on it combined with Galantamine as last time I did on this site I got into trouble. With any supps care should be taken before trying any bigger doses. For Galantamine I would always suggest people start on 4mg and increase slowly if required. If 4mg was enough for me I'd take 4mg - it just isn't. I'm 40 now though so my brain chemistry isn't what it used to be :-)

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## shooshtime

> Yeah, I've tried 4, 8, 10 and 12
> 
> 4 occasionally works, 8mg usually works, 12 always makes me lucid BUT I'm so wired I wake up many times. This has benefits in consolidated memories but can be frustrating when after becoming lucid seconds later I'm awake. I also have MANY false awakenings on higher doses. Recently I saw an amazing UFO in the sky and decided I was going to wake up so I would remember its beauty. I told myself to wake up. I then scribbled on my journal. I then realised the room was too well lit for it to be 5am and realised I was still in a dream. I then decided to wake up again and this time I did wake up. On 12mg the confusion between being asleep and awake is incredible. I was convinced I had a 5 min conversation with my partner in bed after a lucid but later that day when I brought the subject up she said no conversation had taken place :-)
> 
> I only do Galantamine once per week (as I seem to have tolerance issues any more frequently than that) and tonights the night. I was going to go for 8mg but after reading your post may go for 10mg. I also think Alpha-Gpc is better than Choline Bitartrate. I also have Propranolol but its prescription drug so will not say any more publicly on my views on it combined with Galantamine as last time I did on this site I got into trouble. With any supps care should be taken before trying any bigger doses. For Galantamine I would always suggest people start on 4mg and increase slowly if required. If 4mg was enough for me I'd take 4mg - it just isn't. I'm 40 now though so my brain chemistry isn't what it used to be :-)



I always take Alpha GPC with my Galantamine and if you are having tolerance issues I would highly recommend taking Piracetam after you have taken your G+C , I've been able to take my G+C combo successfully 2 - 3 times in a single week with no noticable tolerance issues as long as I take my Piracetam right after I wake up from my LD's. 

Thanks for the info on the different amounts, I took my 8mg yesterday and had 4 LD's which were pretty descent, I haven't taken my G+C in a few months so I wanted to slowly climb up to 12 or 16 again since I have the most amazing lucid dreams when taking those dosages.

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## Mangatasa

Galantamine 4 mg, choline 500mg, and theanine 200 mg have arrived today. Will try tonight to see what the hype is all about. Plan is to sleep at 10:30pm, wake up at 3:30am, take theanine 1 tab, stay awake for 30 minutes, then take galantamine and choline just before going back to sleep. Will post on the results..

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## Magus2003

Well, Having used Galantamine and choline for a while, and suffering the side effects of Galantamine on my stomach, I thought I would look around for something else. 
Guess what...

I found that mugwort tea works very well actually! So well I am wondering if the effects could be increased by some choline and b5?
 ::banana:: 

I have not been able to remember my dreams for quit some time now, but this really did work.
I know this is in the galantamine thread, but I was making a comparison and found the mugwort seemed to work better!
I will let you know how it works with choline etc.

 ::D:

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## Mangatasa

> Galantamine 4 mg, choline 500mg, and theanine 200 mg have arrived today. Will try tonight to see what the hype is all about. Plan is to sleep at 10:30pm, wake up at 3:30am, take theanine 1 tab, stay awake for 30 minutes, then take galantamine and choline just before going back to sleep. Will post on the results..



It worked. Had about 15 minutes of lucid dream via DILD. Asked a dream character (DC) who they were and i get varied, unrelated answers, told a DC that this is a dream and he said he dont think so. Flew above water but cant get past thru concrete walls but i can go thru windows after breaking them. Looked myself at the mirror and i was more handsome than real life. however, i was caught in the dream plot and lost lucidity. This thing works for me after a 10 day dry spell. I will try again after 2 days from now. 

Side effects include a slight abdominal cramps, but not serious. no grogginess for me. felt slightly more refreshed than usual (subjective). Placebo or not, it works for me.

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## Mangatasa

> Well, Having used Galantamine and choline for a while, and suffering the side effects of Galantamine on my stomach, I thought I would look around for something else. 
> Guess what...
> 
> I found that mugwort tea works very well actually! So well I am wondering if the effects could be increased by some choline and b5?
> 
> 
> I have not been able to remember my dreams for quit some time now, but this really did work.
> I know this is in the galantamine thread, but I was making a comparison and found the mugwort seemed to work better!
> I will let you know how it works with choline etc.



 what's the dose of that mugwort tea? can anyone confirm success with mugwort? sorry for thread jack.

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## Runeword

i occasionally use the 8mg galantamind combo with an extra does of choline bitartrate added in and this stuff definitely helps get you out of a dry spell.  take it after a WBTB in my opinion after 3 rem cycles.  make sure you're ready to sleep when you do it because it does seem to wire you up a bit.  i've also taken it with theanine but in my experience it's more effective without it (if you can get back to sleep).  i've had experiences with this where i've had several OBE's and a chain of lucid dreams sometimes spanning 3-4 dreams not to mention a ridiculous amount of false awakenings on top of that.  as others have said though it can be a bit of a struggle to stay grounded in the experience and i would agree with that.  like i said though if you are wanting some help to get out of a dry spell this will definitely do the job.

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## richi

Hi,
does anyone know if you still need to take piracetam if using huperzine a? Or do you take piracetam only when using galantamine?

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## SleepyKitty

G combo proves itself again, it's been about a six month since it crossed my mind.  It took me about a week to finally remember what I was doing when my alarm went off so early but I finally downed my g combo.  12 mg of galantamine + 600 mg of choline + 600-900 mg of alpha gpc and 100 mg of l-theanine.  

WBTB for 5 minutes and crashed.  




 - 1st dream was a FA that had me waiting in my bed thinking about taking my LD pills. 

 - 2nd dream I was lucid and did a bunch of hand RC's and used telekinesis on a raid can and threw it outside.  This lasted about 1-2 minutes.

 - 3rd dream I was lucid and was fully aware of my surroundings and body.  I tried using telekinesis while physically using my hands out in front of me but nothing worked.  I calmed down for a few seconds and thought deeply about what to do and I told myself this was my mind and as I confirmed that to myself I focused on a big ass potato chip that was on the counter (i'm in the kitchen) and started using my mind to move it, it was flying where ever I wanted it to!  Dream lasted about 3-4 minutes, few more things happened in this dream

- 4th dream I was in some Gheddo, chain link fences, dirty streets, low light levels and certain people you would normally see around those parts when I see a old school western style wooden building with Yosimite Sam painted on the front.  I do some hand RC and confirm i'm lucid, wonder around for about a minute and everything is fading.  I start rubbing my hands and screaming clarity and it works!  Everything comes back to full brightness, no more fading black and I wonder for about a minute before the dream starts collapsing yet again.  This time for good.  dream lasted around 3-4 minutes

I had several more dreams but can't recall them.


Notes - My last non-supplement lucid dream was about 2 weeks ago, I recall dreams daily.


I took my pills at 8:50 a.m. and logged my LD's at 11:11 a.m.  I awoke feeling energetic and had that classic g combo buzz going in my body telling me to go to sleep, time for another LD, but I couldn't recall any more after falling asleep and writing down my first few LD notes. During the entire experience I felt slight nausea and I was spinning over and over and over.  I'm not sure if the spinning was my body falling in and out of dreams/LD but there were times where I felt like I was getting dizzy but I was semi asleep or had SP. 

I recommend the Galantamine combo to anyone who is having trouble getting back on that horse.  It really has served me well.

BTW, where do you purchase your Piracetam? I used to use Amazon.

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## Rozollo

Can someone tell me where to buy plain galantamine? I can only find it as Galatamind or something that looks a bit sketchy.

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## gab

If you google Pro-galantamine, it should get you to a website that's selling Lucid dreamer pills (GM+choline) and Pro-galantamine, which is pure GM.

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## Rozollo

Perfect. I cannot find pure galantamine. I have Galantamind, but it want more control. Thanks!

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## LuckyGothGirl

I have been trying to become lucid for the last several weeks with no luck. The dream journal has shown the most results so far. I still haven't became lucid but I am remembering much more of my dreams and they seem more vivid. I have became very excited about LD after reading Tim Ferriss spin on it for self-improvement. Check him out at Lucid Dreaming: A Beginner’s Guide 

I also downloaded a mp3 that was supposed ease you into a lucid state as you listen to it while going to sleep. I haven't seen any improvement so far with this.  

So I have figured it is time to turn switch it up and try some Galantamine. This thread is huge and been very helpful. I read about a 2 part dream supplement at <LINK REMOVED>  that was supposed to be quite successful at creating lucid dreams. Has anyone tried at and was it a success?

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## Rockjet

I have been reading up and attempting LD for about a year now with very small success so trying the Galantamind tonight, one question I have is when using this do you need to take another one the following night (if needed) or will it stay in your system for a few days?

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## Machine1k

> I have been reading up and attempting LC for about a year now with very small success so trying the Galantamind tonight, one question I have is when using this do you need to take another one the following night (if needed) or will it stay in your system for a few days?



Good thing you asked here first, Galantamind is a drug, although an over-the-counter drug it can still have negative effects if used wrong.  In this case using it too much and it will start having the opposite effect in that you won't become lucid and just sleep through it and have less dream recall too from what I understand.

So I'm told it's best to take it for one night and take at least four days off before trying again.  I tried doing it like this myself, but only became lucid the first time, four days later I would still have vivid dreams but no lucidity.  So now I take G+C once every two weeks with a better then 80% chance at becoming lucid and the 20% that I miss I have wild vivid dreams.

Just take it in moderation (times taken a week/month {quantity may very, depends on the person; 4mg vs 8mg vs 10mg .. etc..}) because your body needs to flush what's in your system before you can expect the wanted results again.

I should add, I'm no expert on this stuff by any means, I'm just speaking on my own experience and how I understand this to work.

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## Rockjet

Thanks Machine1k, yes this was the info I was looking for, tried it last night but I think my body was too hyped up with the thought of it all that I found it difficult getting back to sleep although I did have 2 vivid non lucid dreams. Will wait a few days and give it another try, also had my partner next to me who was a little restless so will have the bed to myself next time.

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## three and four

> Thanks Machine1k, yes this was the info I was looking for, tried it last night but I think my body was too hyped up with the thought of it all that I found it difficult getting back to sleep although I did have 2 vivid non lucid dreams. Will wait a few days and give it another try, also had my partner next to me who was a little restless so will have the bed to myself next time.



You might try taking it (the GM+PPL combo or just the GM) not right before bedtime, but after a few hours of sleep. Go to bed at your usual time, but set your alarm for, say, 3 hrs later. If you take the substance at this point (ie after 3hrs of sleep), it will be most active in your system as you head towards the more REM-abundant hours of sleep later on in your nightly sleep cycle. 

I've been using GM for quite some time now, and find no negative side-effects (except perhaps at times on the digestive system). If you use it for LDs (I now just use it for memory), you might want to leave as much as a couple of weeks between use that aims at getting lucid.

Pedro

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## 2Jupes

Sorry to resurrect but didn't want to start a new thread. I have 8mg galantamine capsules. I only want 4mg. Is it ok to open them and dissolve half in water? I'm just not sure if it's ok to absorb it all so quickly.

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## 2Jupes

I received my Alpha GPC Choline and galantamine and tried it for the first time last night.   Like a moron, I looked at the onset and half life charts for the drugs and decided I would take the choline before bed, because it takes a while to peak.  Then I planned to take galantamine whenever I woke up.  I slept from 10pm to midnight, took the 8mg galantamine as well as 300 alpha GPC choline and laid in bed wide awake for three hours.  When I did sleep, my dreams sucked, and now I feel like my head has been jammed inside of a fishbowl.  I am wondering if that early choline ruined my first two hours of sleep and screwed up my cycle because acytecholine was building.  I'll go by the book next time and take it after a solid four or five hours of sleep, without anything before bed.  I will cry if this doesn't work for me  :wink2:

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## kaylen

I am new here and apologize if this has been covered,I will read through these posts but I have a question,I am just re-introducing myself to lucid dreaming,I got some galantamine and had success on first and third nights,then I read that one may become like immune to it so I backed off,,I'm wondering if I use galantamine to do lucid dreaming will I be more likely to need it in the future, or is it more like I can use it for training that part of myself and then when i don't use it I will retain the ability?,,,I hope that was clear enough of a question basically it was an awesome experience but I don't want to need it later

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## Barry

Took 4mg G + 250 C 2 days ago, recorded my longest ever dreams for a single night (770 words!) and had a lucid that lasted a few seconds. 

Took 8mg G + 500 C last night, struggled to get to sleep, and when I did I kept waking up every 10 mins. Had no lucids.

So 4mg seems to be better for me.

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## shooshtime

> I am new here and apologize if this has been covered,I will read through these posts but I have a question,I am just re-introducing myself to lucid dreaming,I got some galantamine and had success on first and third nights,then I read that one may become like immune to it so I backed off,,I'm wondering if I use galantamine to do lucid dreaming will I be more likely to need it in the future, or is it more like I can use it for training that part of myself and then when i don't use it I will retain the ability?,,,I hope that was clear enough of a question basically it was an awesome experience but I don't want to need it later



I don't think it will become something you need to have a LD. Basically my goal was to use it as to get to the point where my LD's become more natural instead of taking the G+C combo. After taking G+C for a while I started to have natural LD's much more frequently, I used it as an aid to get to my goal of having LD's without having to do WBTB or using supplements but anytime i'm on a dry spell or fall out of Lucid Dreaming my G+C combo with a WBTB is almost at a 100% success rate. I very rarely take my supplements and don't have a LD, usually when I don't it's because I get lazy and don't do a good WBTB which is a very very big part of being successful in my case. Hope that helps.

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## dreamingnow

Hi everyone.

I apologize if this has already been discussed in the forum, I read through it but I did not seem to find any problems like this. I ordered Lucidimine off of Amazon a few months ago when I first became interested in supplements. The ingredients are listed as:
Galantamine 6 MG
Alpha-GPC 50 MG
CDP Choline 50 MG
Choline Bitartrate- 100 MG
L-Theanine 200 MG
The first time I took this, I had a DILD that lasted only a few seconds. Beyond that, I have not had much luck. I only use it once every other week or so. Last night, I went to bed around 12:30. I woke up at 5 and took one of these pills before laying back in bed. I tried to focus and do a WILD, but I could not fall asleep. I laid on my back for about 2 hours before I decided to switch over to my side. I laid on my side for another half hour feeling wide awake. I was thinking it was never going to work. Somehow even though I was focusing solely on my intention to perform a WILD I somehow fell asleep without realizing it. The dream was only a few minutes long and was very hazy, and I did not realize I had been dreaming until I woke up. By now, it was around 7:45, and I tried to fall back asleep and perform a WILD. Again, I laid on my back trying to fall asleep for around an hour, and then somehow I drifted off without realizing it again and had another poor quality, hazy dream. When I woke up, I felt way too wired to go back to sleep.

Sorry for the long story, but basically my question is: Is there something I am doing wrong? I have seen nothing but positive experiences on this thread. Whenever I take this pill, I try to perform a WBTB or WILD (kind of unsure of difference), but I end up laying there for hours staring at my closed eyelids. I am thinking maybe I should try taking half a pill or something, but I also started dreaming without realizing it and the quality of the dream was poorer than my normal dream quality, which makes me wonder if I need a higher dosage. I am just very confused, I am trying to stay optimistic because I really want to achieve a high-level LD with these supplements, but I do not know what my problem is. Thanks for the help  :smiley: .

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## JShadow

I ordered galantamine a few months ago and never tried it as much as I wanted to, even though it worked the very first time I took it at 6mg.

So I decided to try it again 2 nights ago. I had incredible success. I went to sleep at 10:00, woke up at 3:00, and took 6mg of galantamine hydrobromide along with 2 letchin soft gels which contained 280mg phosphatidylcholine combined. I stayed up for 45 minutes writing in my journal (had a dream where I talked to DC about WILDs. nonlucid), remembering my intention, doing RCs, and thinking of waking life as if I was in a dream and trying to levitate things, manifest objects, etc.

 Then I went back to sleep on my back and WILDed. What I estimate to be 40 minutes after trying and not getting much HI (unusual for me) I felt my heart rate increase and thought this is it! It wasn't. So I rolled over to sleep on my stomach, but stayed aware anyway. I had a DILD and decided to manifest pizza for ToTM, ate it and it tasted like dull pizza, inflated in my mouth, and turned sticky like a huge ball of pizza flavored gum.... Not good lol. It was a pretty clear dream, good control.

I woke up, wrote down the dream and went back to sleep. DILD again. I kept trying to have sex, but the dream wouldn't let me and faded away each time -.-    I would wake up in my body and not move, except maybe my index finger pressing the bed uncontrollably. I remember being transported into a dream where I was looking out of a window. First successful DEILD. I had many DEILDs that night and many dream scenery switches, it was craziness and seemed to last for hours. I probably had 5+ dreams chained in that single REM period and only lost lucidity temporarily between those dreams before being signaled to do an RC because I just knew.

Defiantly trying this combo more often, but not more than once every 2-3 days, as recommended earlier in the thread.

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## tofur

I took 4mg of Galantamine and 300mg of alpha GPC for the first time last night and had trouble falling asleep because I was pretty awake before going to bed at first and too active when I got up 3-4 hours later and probably too excited but holy crap it was just chaos the whole rest of the night. 

False awakenings, weird pseudo dreams, dreams in my bedroom that were super vivid (one clear memory was looking out my bedroom window and a bright green firework coming up over the building in front of it and flying towards me straight over my bedroom no idea how that didn't make me lucid, another was tossing a cute smiling fit girl stomach down onto my bed and peeling her yoga pants off  :wink2:  that one didn't last long but it was super vivid and crazy and I never have dreams in my bedroom so that's a new thing, another I "woke up" after that yoga pants one and wanted to write it down to remember and like get back to it somehow but I had two laptops on my bedside table instead of the normal just one so that was another FA), moments of lucidity all over the place, etc. I can't wait to take it again, gunna try to do it when I'm more tired so I drop into a proper sleep before it really kicks in because it felt like I never got fully asleep this time.

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## tofur

Did 8mg G and 600mg of the alpha GPC last night after 3.5hrs sleep (at 3:30am) and did some SSILD cycles falling asleep, had a couple vivid dreams but was never quite fully lucid in them.  

Woke up and then actually did a WILD for the first time!  Wasn't even really trying to, all of a sudden I realized there was a wall next to me and I reached my hand out to rub it which cemented the knowing that I was in a dream and not in my bed and then to try to stabilize myself in the dream.  Vision was really blurry/faint and actually faded completely on and off for a bit while I kept rubbing/touching the wall to stay grounded.  Eventually I actually had some vision consistently and went into a simple small room for a few seconds then remembered reading that dreams rely a lot on movement so I went out into the hall and moved quickly down it towards an exit.  

I burst out into a grassy area with tall apartment buildings on my right and a 3ft tall red painted concrete thing in the middle and it was SO vivid.  It was INSANE, like high definition turned up to 11, kinda like HDR photos or something.  Bright sun, super green grass/trees.  Went over and touched the red concrete and looked around for a bit in amazement, my vision was a bit closed off like my peripheral vision wasn't 100%, was wearing sunglasses automatically which was nice since the sun was so f'in bright.  I decided then to try flying for the first time, aimed for a grassy area 100yards away and did a nice super human leap over to it, tried to take off again and ended up in the tops of tall trees (hurt a bit on landing in them, lol), popped back out of them and on my next descent saw a tall dead tree with no branches except a lateral one coming off the very top so I grabbed onto it and was swinging around and around with endless gravity/inertia and the tree was cracking/breaking but I was having a blast, once it was on it's way down I took off again and headed back towards the buildings with better sustained flight, saw a big school with sports fields and decided that was a good place to crash land but didn't make it, landed on a building top just short and then woke up at ~5am.  Wrote this all down after failing to DEILD (gotta re-read how to do that) and then fell back asleep and had another vivid non-lucid.

10/10 would recommend people try this stuff, this is my 3rd go at it in a few weeks and it seems like my body had to get used to it, the first time was just chaos and I never really slept, 2nd and 3rd are more calm and steady.

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## pdunc

Tofur.  I have to agree with you that this is a great combination of supplements. I think that starting with LDing at my age (64), I may actually need the supplements. The only thing I do differently than you is besides taking the 8mg of Galantamine and the 600 mg of Alpha-GPC, I take 500 mg of Choline Bitartrate at the same time.  The reason for this is that the regular choline peaks at about the same time as the Galantamine where the Alpha-GPC takes 3 hours to peak. I believe that the regular choline which peaks at the same time as the G initially helps me get lucid, and that the longer acting A-GPC helps extend the LD, or prolongs the time in which I can have a chance to have a LD.  I've experimented with various dosages of each supplement and found the dosages I've already mentioned work best for me. I used to think that once I get used to having LD's, I'll stop using supplements and just do it "naturally". I don't feel that way anymore. I only try to LD once a week, sometimes twice, but because it's hard for me to get up and do WBTB, I'm not going to take a chance of not having an LD by not taking supplements. I do work on memory and self awareness on a daily basis and actually practice my WILD procedure once or twice during the day prior to the night I attempt to WILD. I make trying to have an LD an event in order to develop my mindset. This all works for me. Last night I had a very fun and exciting LD, my 7th out of my last 10 attempts. I have had little success with DILDs, so I plan on keeping on doing what works for me. Having a great time!

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