# Sleep and Dreams > Research >  >  Shared Dreaming Research

## zebrah

Hey I'm wanting to work on a credible shared dreaming research project. I plan to document and date everything and use correct format/methods. Here is what I just jotted down to give you guys an idea of my plan. By no means is this what my paper is going to look like. I also know I need some more dreaming experience so I plan to include this in the paper so that my peers can test the experiments. 

HYPOTHESIS: Do Dreamers Enter An Alternate Reality?
THEORY: That Lucid Dreamers Can Share Dreams Together
ASSUMPTIONS: That Lucid Dreaming Is Possible
OUTLINE:
Dreams occur in REM sleep. If dreams only occur in your mind then it would be impossible for two people to share a dream. Our goal is to attempt to document shared dreaming and a credible manner, and prove multiple realties.

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## Man of Shred

Q. What constitutes credible shared dream experiences VS non Credible?

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## waving on oceans

I had a friend who said she "pulled" another friend into her dream.  She was having a normal dream when suddenly she thought of a close friend.  Apparently the dream changed, she was surrounded by bright light and suddenly her friend she was concerned with was there with her.  The next day, dun dun dun... her friend said she had also seen her in her dream.

Perhaps it is possible, that would be cool.... but it may take someone with a certain ability most people aren't aware of (my friend had some interesting abilities) that go just beyond normal lucid dreaming.

 ::banana::

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## DatDreamer

I'm honestly not interested in this at all... But:





> Dreams occur in REM sleep



Dreams don't ONLY occur in REM sleep as far as I know. I'm pretty sure that is just when they are most vivid. Minor issue, just bringing it to attention I guess...

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## zebrah

> Q. What constitutes credible shared dream experiences VS non Credible?



Something that another person. For example you, could read and then repeat the experiments.





> I'm honestly not interested in this at all... But:
> 
> Quote:
> Dreams occur in REM sleep
> Dreams don't ONLY occur in REM sleep as far as I know. I'm pretty sure that is just when they are most vivid. Minor issue, just bringing it to attention I guess...



Ya I remembered that after posting but I was going to bed so I didn't edit it

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## Man of Shred

I've already done that.

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## Kraftwerk

> I've already done that.



As have I. A lot of people here on DV have done this. Check out the DJ's

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## zebrah

I know others have done this but I have reasons why I want to do it.
1) because I am folowing my peers work (MOSH) and testing his experiment
2) more information for other points of view is always helpfull
3) I'm training to be an ecologist and understand science and would like to make a more formal experiment that might be taken more seriously by skeptics.

and mosh I really enjoy reading our posts about shared dreaming you really inspire my to work on lucid dreaming. People on the forum are typicly open minded and are kinda the forruners of lucid dreaming along with people like Stephan LaBarge so I feel like I owe you guys to input some good material. But if you guys think it's a waste of time the I respect that and will stop my work because what's the point if it's not needed.  :smiley:

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## Man of Shred

No, by all means. Find out for yourself what's real and what's not!

 Realize that this can take months to accomplish.

 nomads format for shared Dreaming as follows: Recall, Lucidity, Dream guides, and then shared dreaming.

 After almost seven months of trying hard to follow this method. I'm just reaching the level where i can be lucid as often As i like. I've had many shared dream accidentals in my non lucids. My next phase is making them happen more in my lucids! I want to get them down to a science so I can refine my theories.

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## zebrah

very cool man. I also hope this might keep me on track with lucid dreaming unlike past attempts. Maybe someday we can share a dream lol

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## Loaf

I started keeping a diary of my attemps to share a dream. I stopped documenting it because I had no progress. About a month later I finally got somewhere. I kick myself for not sticking to it.

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## juroara

:smiley:  I think its a good idea

It'll be impossible for our little community to provide objective proof of shared dreaming. What you we can do however is provide comparison experiences of shared dreaming, and tutorials of what these individuals did. And also offer information about the individuals sleeping schedule to see if time makes any difference at all. It'll hopefully be comprehensive enough just to get people interested in it so they can try it for themselves, and experience it for themselves

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## waving on oceans

> I think its a good idea
> 
> It'll be impossible for our little community to provide objective proof of shared dreaming. What you we can do however is provide comparison experiences of shared dreaming, and tutorials of what these individuals did. And also offer information about the individuals sleeping schedule to see if time makes any difference at all. It'll hopefully be comprehensive enough just to get people interested in it so they can try it for themselves, and experience it for themselves



Well if we all say it would be impossible for DreamViews to provide the roof then yes, it would be impossible.

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## zebrah

Any more information on the subject is helpfull. I honestly think people should open their minds. At least to lucid dreaming it's a shame more people don't know about it

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## Dogod

I don't know how you could prove it beyond reasonable doubt, other than to yourself, but I'd be glad to see proof that is scientifically acceptable. (The biggest problem is that a dream journel isn't enough since it can be faked.) What you need is an experiment that can be reproduced by anyone with the proper equipment and sufficient time. (If there is any equipment needed. If not, then anybody.) I'm sure it's doable, but I don't know how. If it's not reproducable and/or doesn't have something more than just someone's word, it's not a scientificly acceptable paper. Reproducable isn't something you should have to worry about, since it can take as much time as needed. Proof beyond two people writing down the same dream is harder. I think that's the main point of this thread - if anyone can figure out a way to prove this beyond dream journals.

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## Loaf

> (The biggest problem is that a dream journel isn't enough since it can be faked.)



Yeah, there are about 15 people including me that have experienced a shared dream and we are all in on the lie. Aren't we great at keeping secrets? We have so much to gain by lying.  ::roll::

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## Dogod

I'm not acusing you of lying at all. I'm just saying that that's not enough to be scientific proof. I don't think you're lying, but the scientific community will. You have to prove them wrong, especially with something like this.

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## zebrah

I know it would take a lot for this to be taken seriously but once I get started I would like to get lots of people involved to add more credibility to the project.

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## juroara

To make science happy, you would need a high tech lab where the individuals are isolated and on camera watch  :Cheeky: . Just to make sure they aren't telling each other what to lie about on the celly phone. 

But, what you can do is try to get such a huge number of experiences that you attract professional attention. My favorite NDE website doesn't do any research. They just allow people to dump their experience. Well, when you have over a thousand submitted experiences people start to notice. And eventually, scientists started to explore this phenomenon. While the objective nature of the NDE is in question, the reality that people do have NDEs is not! NDE, that is the experience of one, is real!

How many different individuals on this forum would have to profess to having a shared dream before the average dreamer here on this forum questions that it's possibly true?

Ten? Fifty? Two Hundred?

I mean, we don't have objective proof of lucid dreaming either. But we know it's real simply by the sheer numbers of people who profess that it's real. And unlike the NDE, because you have the testimony of more than one individual you are painting something objective!

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## Baron Samedi

Great post juroara.

The problem with shared dreaming experiments, is we have no "control." The dreamers would have to be isolated from each other, and the isolation verified by researchers, so we couldn't communicate with each other, except in dreams.

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## waving on oceans

WakingNomad,

You have group dreams from time to time?  How did that happen?

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## zebrah

You guys are all right. I think it would be hard to even get someone to believe in lucid dreaming, let alone sharing a lucid dream between two people. I think first the public needs to know more about lucid dreaming itself. Of course any work done could help people on this forum who already know about lucid dreams. But a larger audience would be benificial.

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## fruitbootnfool

"I propose that there is in fact an 
empirical test that could distinguish between the two 
possibilities: two oneironauts would have simultaneous lucid 
dreams while being monitored in a sleep laboratory. They 
would agree to meet in their lucid dreams and signal 
simultaneously by, for example, both following with their 
gaze the movement of one of their hands, back and forth, left 
and right. If the strong interpretation is of mutual dreams, 
i.e., if the lucid dreamers are actually sharing a dream-
world, they would show simultaneous eye-movement signals in 
their polygraphic recordings. If on the other hand, they 
report carrying out this task in a mutual lucid dream and do 
not show simultaneous signals, we would have to conclude that 
they were at most sharing dream plots. Let us be sure to 
appreciate the significance of such an experiment. If the 
mutual lucid dreamers fail to show simultaneous signals, it 
would be neither surprising or especially significant. 
However, if the mutual lucid dreamers did prove to produce 
simultaneous eye movement signals, we have incontrovertible 
proof for the objective existence of the dream world. We 
would then know that, in certain circumstances at least, 
dreams can be as objectively real as the world of physics. 
This would finally raise the question of whether physical 
reality is itself some kind of mutual dream. Perhaps what 
really happens is the balanced result of a myriad of 
interactions contributed by us all dreaming the dream of 
consensus reality. But if not, then there's always Bob 
Dylan's offer: "I'll let you be in my dream, if I can be in 
yours."" 

Stephen LaBerge -- Lucid Dreaming

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## Man of Shred

Mainstream Science is as corrupt as mainstream Religion. I have no desire to impress either, Since, when mankind Awakens to what we truly are. both will be irrelevant.

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## Loaf

> Mainstream Science is as corrupt as mainstream Religion.



... no. Just no.

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## khellofthewired

Hi all! I know this thread fizzled like a month ago, but I just wanted to ask: so Zebrah, are you actually going thru with this experiment? I've been searching the web for information on the matter and this is the closest Ive gotten to anyone proposing to actually try and _prove_ this, not just praise its merits. Id be really interested to hear if you've gotten anywhere with this.

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## Kraftwerk

> Hi all! I know this thread fizzled like a month ago, but I just wanted to ask: so Zebrah, are you actually going thru with this experiment? I've been searching the web for information on the matter and this is the closest Ive gotten to anyone proposing to actually try and _prove_ this, not just praise its merits. Id be really interested to hear if you've gotten anywhere with this.



Like It told you in the other thread (Posting it here incase you don't look back), Theres an experiment going on in Deep Dreaming. PM one of the admins and ask for access, and take a look!

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## zebrah

hey khell I am going through with it still but I an having trouble actually lucid dreaming. l am going to try my first real expiriment today if I can. Me and my brother are both going to try to WILD simultaniously focusing on a set location. If you are interested in joining my Indipendant project please post back.

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## khellofthewired

Hey there Zebrah. Glad to hear you haven't given up on this! My current train of thought regarding the matter (as restrained and uneducated as it may be) consists of something along these lines:

Shared Dreaming experiences can most likely be truly attained, if at all, when one is in VERY close proximity to the "Second Dreamer". To better explain my thinking (and the why behind it) I can only use what I consider a deceptively simple example: this new wave of so called "mind control" child's games. The premise upon which these toys work is based on sensors registering electrical charges (mysteriously enough termed "mind waves" by company marketers) that in turn act on an electrical motor, which depending on the concentration of said waves, can either spin a fan or move a car or do a seemingly endless variety of things.

Now, my point is this, it is perfectly clear that indeed there is some sort of "brainwave" being generated by our minds; I know this is a common enough and proven scientific fact, but I refer to these brainwaves as being able to interact with objects _outside_ our own skulls. So, if we can make crude electrical sensors register, and indeed to a degree, manipulate these waves, is it not possible that perhaps a much, MUCH more advanced exterior sensor (i.e. someone else's brain) can recieve, interpret, _and_ control these emanations?

Now I know what most people are thinking: mind control? now I know your nuts! But its not mind control; I am not by any means implying that we can control other peoples brainwaves, make them do what we want or think what we want; what I am merely saying is: why can these waves not interact in a certain fashion when we are asleep? For truly when we are dreaming about, lets say a barn, the barn in itself is nothing more than a series of encoded electrical impulses bouncing about in our brains; if it has been proven that these electrical impulses are by no means deterred by the calcium cage that is our skull (as proven by these so called toys) if we dream while in close proximity to someone else, why can't this Second Dreamer's waves get entangled with our own? the result being us _both_ dreaming about the barn?

Well, like I said, I do not pretend to be in any way knowledgeable about these matters, it is simply a concept that I have floating around in my mind that I wanted to share for anyone to either contribute to, or completely rip apart! I will probably be posting this "theory" of mine in a separate thread to promote a more varied approach. Thank you all!

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## Dannon Oneironaut

Well, my successful dream sharing experiences have always been when sleeping in the same bed. So your theory is interesting.

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## zebrah

Hey that's interesting. I share a room with my bro so we will be close. hopefully this will work it should be happening soon. I think it should work because we are both going to try to immerse ourselvs in this location. I'll post back with a long analysis of the reasults when it happens.

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## khellofthewired

Dannon, you are about the twelfth person that's confirmed to me that their shared dreaming experience has been indeed carried out while in close proximity to the Second Dreamer. 

I skimmed through the papers which you provided in the link in my other post, which I include here for anyone likewise interested: 

http://www.asdreams.org/telepathy/ke...ream_event.htm 
http://dreamtalk.hypermart.net/membe...d_kellogg.html

To be certain, there are various interesting avenues to be explored there, but again, there seems to be no _actual_ research being conducted on the matter; this baffles me. It needn't be a particularly expensive scientific exercise, just a simple EEG reader and a few willing test subjects would do (of which I'm sure about a few dozen could be easily found in these forums)

I plan to pursue this "mind experiment" to the fullest of possible outcomes. I realize that these forums are for a more relaxed sort of discussion and by no means a veritable source of solid empiric information; but nevertheless I plan to keep everyone updated as I progress, as I know Zebrah will too. We might not be funded by big government or company grants, but how many times has history shown us that sometimes the most unexpected people are the ones that come through with the biggest discoveries? I urge everyone that reads this and is truly interested in pursuing a scientifically based explanation to shared dreaming to contact me, or even if you've had an experience and simply wish to propose a different theory, everything is assuredly welcome! Like I mentioned before, I will be opening a new thread to further develop this topic.

 If enough of us put our minds together, there is surely no obstacle big enough to deter us.

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## Dogod

What we should do is create a website, separate from DV, for the specific purpose of these experiments. This seems like it's too big to discuss in only these forums, because as we see, threads decay and sink. With a separate website (with its own forums), we would be able to not only explain to newcomers what shared dreaming is, but also not be dependent on DV being up and running - all websites have various problems once in a while. Also, that way if somebody does a Google search for shared dreaming, there will be something useful. Also, there would be a home page to refer people to if they ask questions about it. Also, we would be able to discuss shared dreaming without the constraints of one thread.
shareddreaming.com is an open domain name, but other ideas could work also.
It's my opinion that this is the only way we'll ever be able to organize any formal experiment. We'd need a way to make the experiment repeatable and unfalsifiable, because it will definitely face intense scrutiny. The slightest flaw, and it's done. I think that if it is possible to do a formal experiment, and if we have a separate website dedicated to it, then we will do it.

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## Kraftwerk

Uhh.. Take a look at nomads work. He lives in hawaii, raven, mosh, loaf, me, and everyone he's Dream shared with doesn't. I'm not saying it couldn't be brainwaves, but how do you explain the time difference? When me and Nomad shared a dream, I dreamed a bus came crashing through my school and I got on and saw nomad, nomad dreamed he crashed a bus through a school and I got on. Problem is, I was sleeping while he was typing up his dream journal entry.

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## zebrah

Wow this forum is really taking off again. I think a shared dreamig website would be great. Would you rather make the website indipendant or ask dreamviews Inc to buy the domain. I am starting to believe that dreaming is an alternate reality. My plans to shared dream with my bro were put on hold till later. This is so exciting. I belive me and  two others have shared conciousnes before. My brother being one of them. After that we have had more experiences of possible thought sharing. So I think this will make our attempt sucessfull. 

I think if we all got good at shared dreaming we should designate a location for us to meet. Suggestions are welcome.

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## Dogod

I'm kind of improvising as I go here, but I think this is what we would need for the experiment to be successful:
- Completely separate from DV. No admins or mods from DV, only for the reason that we want to be able to run independently.
- This is where it gets confusing. I think we would need a forum that is hidden from the general public, so that we could discuss the experiment without giving any details to the public or the participants before the experiment.
- We would need a public page from which people could sign up to be part of the experiment. The participants would have to be sworn to secrecy (I don't mean they can't share the website, but they can't disclose any details such as where or when), or they might share too much with another participant and invalidate the experiment. They would also have to swear not to sign up to any LDing websites or forums, or again the results might be invalid because of too much communication between participants.
- I suggest an email address dedicated to the project, so that we can receive applications.
- We will need a tutorial on how to LD that doesn't link to any other websites.
- Obviously, patience will be a major virtue for all involved. This is a very long term project. We might not be able to hold the actual experiment for a year or two,  because of the complications in teaching people to LD and the time it will take to gather enough participants.
- I don't know what the financial requirements will be, but we will need to transport 100-200 people to a central location, separately. Once they're there, we'll need to keep them under monitoring 24/7 for at least a week. The long time span is to allow people to have multiple trials, because a person might not be able to do it on the first try.
- To conduct the experiment, we'd give a certain number of the people (less than half) some code, and tell them to tell the person in their dream the code. If it works, then it's a success. If not, it hasn't worked.
- It might actually be a good idea to allow the people to talk to their partner before hand, to allow them to familiarize themselves with the look of the person. What we can't do is allow any communication after we've given half the code.
If I think of anything else, I'll post again. I think that this is the only way we can do this, and even though it will require a lot of patience, and some money, and will be very hard, I think it's doable.
The thing is, it wouldn't be us doing the experiment. It would be a group of volunteers.

Thank Firefox for being open to an addon that saved my post, even though the forum logged me out!

EDIT: I think this is definitely a group project. Above all, it will take patience and persistence. We'll have to support each other in the effort, and not give up even if we think it's doomed to failure. I think the first problem, assuming we get the website running, will be to gather enough participants. This will need time to rise to the top of Google results, and at first the pace of recruits will be very slow. Although DV and other LDing websites can link to us to help us, we can't link back, and many people will be reluctant to link to us for nothing (DV probably will, and we can put it in our signatures.). If we do rise to the top of Google, though, participants should come quickly.
When you do create the website, and the private forums, I can try to halp with some of the setting up process. I think I will be able to turn forum permission off to anyone who isn't from DV, but I'll need access to the admin CP for that.

The great thing about this is, before today I had no real confidence that we could actually set up an experiment. Now I have a lot of extra confidence in this. khellofthewired deserves a thanks from all of us for reviving this topic.

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## zebrah

*- Completely separate from DV. No admins or mods from DV, only for the reason that we want to be able to run independently.*

I agree

*- This is where it gets confusing. I think we would need a forum that is hidden from the general public, so that we could discuss the experiment without giving any details to the public or the participants before the experiment.*

I agree that's not hard if you understand web editing

*- We would need a public page from which people could sign up to be part of the experiment. The participants would have to be sworn to secrecy (I don't mean they can't share the website, but they can't disclose any details such as where or when), or they might share too much 
with another participant and invalidate the experiment. They would also have to swear not to sign up to any LDing websites or forums, or again the results might be invalid because of too much communication between participants.*

True, True

*- I suggest an email address dedicated to the project, so that we can receive applications.*

Web domains allow you to do that easily.

*- We will need a tutorial on how to LD that doesn't link to any other websites.*

I can write well, Don't let my dream count fool you I have had more lucids. This is just my latest attempt

*- Obviously, patience will be a major virtue for all involved. This is a very long term project. We might not be able to hold the actual experiment for a year or two,  because of the complications in teaching people to LD and the time it will take to gather enough participants.*

Yes and a PHD wouldn't hurt lol.

*- I don't know what the financial requirements will be, but we will need to transport 100-200 people to a central location, separately. Once they're there, we'll need to keep them under monitoring 24/7 for at least a week. The long time span is to allow people to have multiple trials, because a person might not be able to do it on the first try.
*
Yeah True, Something like the nova dreamer could help though. I also think that pulling strangers from the same city into a mobile command center would work well also. And moving from city to city.

*- To conduct the experiment, we'd give a certain number of the people (less than half) some code, and tell them to tell the person in their dream the code. If it works, then it's a success. If not, it hasn't worked.*

Right The way the code is conveyed would be critical. Perhaps maybe an outfit would work.

*- It might actually be a good idea to allow the people to talk to their partner before hand, to allow them to familiarize themselves with the look of the person. What we can't do is allow any communication after we've given half the code.*

Well good stuff. It would be cool if you could PM me with some information about yourself. And we could talk more sensitive information on there.

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## zebrah

DOUBLE POST yes i know

My suggestion for a meeting place...

Stonehenge

According to WIKIPEDIA

Stonehenge is a prehistoric monument  located in the English county of Wiltshire, about 3.2 kilometres (2.0 mi) west of Amesbury  and 13 kilometres (8.1 mi) north of Salisbury. One of the most famous sites in the world, Stonehenge is composed of earthworks surrounding a circular setting of large standing stones. It is at the centre of the most dense complex of Neolithic  and Bronze Age monuments in England, including several hundred burial mounds


Its a mystical place thought to be devoted to astronomy and the sky's vast expanse similar to that of your mind. I think it would be a great place to meet

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## Loaf

I have a feeling this is going to go terribly wrong.

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## waving on oceans

> Mainstream Science is as corrupt as mainstream Religion. I have no desire to impress either, Since, when mankind Awakens to what we truly are. both will be irrelevant.



Agree.

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## zebrah

but it has not yet  :smiley:

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## waving on oceans

Hmm just read above posts,

Well I think you would have to get a group of people together mentally and kinda get on the same frequency in order to all meet while dreaming.  I think you may get several people all to dream of Stonehenge, but how to have them all be at the same Stonehenge, there must be a method people could use to get into the space where you could share dreams.

If people here at DV are having these experiences, we need to learn more.

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## zebrah

Yah. I think that is something we will need to research. It might be the same stonehenge for everyone but who knows.

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## Dogod

> I have a feeling this is going to go terribly wrong.



There's a good chance that it will. I think that the sooner we get the website running, the better. If we wait too long, there's a good chance we'll forget about it.




> DOUBLE POST yes i know
> 
> My suggestion for a meeting place...
> 
> Stonehenge
> 
> According to WIKIPEDIA
> 
> Stonehenge is a prehistoric monument  located in the English county of Wiltshire, about 3.2 kilometres (2.0 mi) west of Amesbury  and 13 kilometres (8.1 mi) north of Salisbury. One of the most famous sites in the world, Stonehenge is composed of earthworks surrounding a circular setting of large standing stones. It is at the centre of the most dense complex of Neolithic  and Bronze Age monuments in England, including several hundred burial mounds
> ...



It's going to be hard for me to meet you anywhere - but I certainly don't see how I could go to Stonehenge. I live on Long Island, New York, and you live in Northern California. I'm not very mobile right now - might be different in a year or tow, but I certainly can't buy a plane ticket right now. In NYC, it _might_ be possible this year. I'll be better at the conceptual part of this than the physical part of this, definitely.
Before anything else, though, I want to see the forum set up. I know myself, and if we put it off too long, it won't happen. (I don't mean the experiment, I mean the creation of the forum) We also have to figure out hosting and domain for the website.

EDIT: Wow. I had no idea you meant meeting in a dream. I thought you meant physical meeting.
This is a great idea, if we can get it off the ground. If we wait longer than a week or two, there's a good chance it will be totally forgotten, and never be more than an idea.

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## waving on oceans

> but it has not yet



True, not yet....but the flow seems to be moving in that direction.  It seems something is happening to the shared subconscious, perhaps the fact that today so many people are working off of loads of shared information.  Science seems to be venturing into the world of "spirituality" and already showing some interesting results.

I hate to say it, but many of the people I know who profess to be religious (specifically in that "fighting for their religion way" and they want you to see things their way) seem to not be awake to the spirit.  They seem rigid in this area, not light and free.  I still say much of the dogma gets in the way of just seeing the beauty of this whole experience.  It gets in the way of seeing the wonder of that other person, the magic that they exist.  And you.

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## zebrah

I ment a meeting place in the dream relm. Sorry for not being clear. But yes we do need a domain soon

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## waving on oceans

> EDIT: Wow. I had no idea you meant meeting in a dream. I thought you meant physical meeting.
> This is a great idea, if we can get it off the ground. If we wait longer than a week or two, there's a good chance it will be totally forgotten, and never be more than an idea.




Ho, Brah that was sooooo funny!!  I was reading your post like "What, this guy thinks we gona all meet in real-time??"  Then I got to your edit and just started rolling!!!!  I was laughing so hard!!!!  ::D:   Hehe....

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## Dogod

If you think that was funny, you should have seen me at the moment I realized the mistake. I'm sure that however hard you laughed, I laughed harder.

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## waving on oceans

That was great man....I love those DV moments.  Why I keep coming back here.  For a second there I questioned it too....but yeah I guessed we were gona try meet at Stonehenge in a dream lol  But hey if we have any luck with this over big distances perhaps one day we could get DV to fly us all to stonehenge to continue the experiment.  DV would be paying, of course.

 :Cheeky:

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## Dogod

I definitely agree with that.

Anyway, it's almost 12:00, so I'm going to let this idea go through the first test: If it's still a good idea tomorrow afternoon, it passes the test.

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## zebrah

OMG to funny. Yeah the real question about a website is who is going to front the money?!? My father is about to build a website and I am going to do the design. Once I get the software I could help build a site. We just need someone willing to invest some cash. If the website and research becomes popular that individual would come out with more money. But it's a risk.

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## waving on oceans

im broke lol

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## zebrah

As am I. Well this will never go anywhere if no one has the cash.

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## Dannon Oneironaut

OK, this forum has really taken off in the last few moments!

Try http://www.ning.com/

It is free.

Set the account to private. Invite me.

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## JessieTea

If you guys still need a website I'd be happy to design one. I wouldn't be able to start until the beginning of June, but I've been making websites for 7 years (since I was 8).

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## Dannon Oneironaut

Good idea. Ning.com is easy, but you could make a custom one huh?
PS. Check out www.luciddreamyoga.ning.com
It really hasn't gone anywhere
became more of a new-age community blog.
But a good example.

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## JessieTea

I could make a custom one, it just depends how much interactivity you would want... I could probably do it anyways, but it would take me longer.

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## Dannon Oneironaut

YOu all could actually just join the http://www.luciddreamyoga.ning.com/g...eddreamsportal group. There is a shared dreaming group already set up that nobody has joined. It is free.

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## khellofthewired

Ok everyone, I’m back! I was barely gone for a few hours and as soon as I logged in again there were about two new pages worth of replies!! This is truly amazing; I didn't expect to be able to revive the thread with such success.

So, on to what I've seen you write thus far:

I think the idea for creating an independent site to be able to take this one step further is great! Don’t worry about the money, as it so happens I'm a Web Designer that also happens to own a certified godaddy.com reseller account, so I'll take care of the domain and the hosting. If this is serious I will have the site up and running in less than a month. If JessieTea or anyone else would like to contribute to the design process by all means! it would be terrific!

 I did my Bachelors in Graphic Design and have since specialized in Web, so I can have a fully functional, aesthetically pleasing site up and running in no time. I also happen to specialize in the Joomla! mainframe, which is basically a variant of what this site is running on, so we would have forums and administrators with assigned specific privileges much like here. As for positioning our site at the top of browsers (i.e google) I also offer Search Engine Optimization services to my clients, so positioning will also not be a problem.

I almost feel like this is flowing together WAY too easy, but yes, I agree with the general sentiment that we should get this up and running ASAP and away from here so as to be able to better control it.

The research part of this is a little more complicated, specifically with regard to participant acquisition and control, but as far as getting people involved with credentials I think I can be of assistance as well, having not a few contacts in several departments (psychology included) within the University of San Diego campus; I don't know if anyone here actually works off of topics such as these, but if there is, please feel free to come forward now. Funding can surely be attained for such a reduced budget project such as this but again, that is something to be considered down the line.

So, what it comes down to is this: are we really doing this? If so, let me now within this week so we can define the project (and website) name, so that I may be able to purchase it and begin production of the site. I would like to also point out at this stage, that while I understand the general enthusiasm being shared in these forums, as so often and quite naturally happens in such good natured and encouraging environments as these, we would need to know who is actually in it for the "long haul" you might say; this is not to mean that if you want out down the line you can’t, after all in the beginning it will just be a website that between hosting, domain and our email addresses won’t really run over 100 bucks, so no biggie there. But if and when we start getting into the more intensive parts, it would be nice to know who we can count on to see it through.

Now, while its good that such enthusiasm and drive is building behind this, it is also important to keep in mind that no one is going to either quit their day jobs or schools for this, so don’t be intimidated when I say that we need to know who is committed; one of the worst blunders any "amateur" research project can and does encounter is start off very strong, and eventually lose sight of its goals and disband. So we would need to keep things in perspective, and most of all, for all of us to be honest with ourselves: perhaps you really _would_ love to work completely on this, but on the other hand you know that your family/job/graduate/undergraduate/ activities will make it impossible to devote yourself fully to it. I think this can be said of most if not all of us, but in acknowledging this fact we can overcome it. Even if you can’t commit fully to it if you want to help, no one will be turned down; the more the merrier. Also, as you can see from my previous posts, I have to admit that this is something of a little obsession of mine, so you can be sure that I willundoubtedly be there to help and push and generally do whatever it takes to get it off the ground!

So, with ALL of that said, I guess it’s time to sit back and wait for your input on this. I really hope we can make something real out of this. Thank you all for such a great attitude! And of course our dear host Zebrah that is kind enough to accommodate us in his thread haha! Good night and I hope to hear from everyone soon!

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## JessieTea

That sounds perfect! I'd love to help you with whatever you need or collaborate with you on anything.

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## zebrah

wow that's awesome khell I an committed for sure. Sign me up. I think this is going to turn into something amazing no matter how you slice it.

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## Dogod

Of course I'm committed




> Ok everyone, I’m back! I was barely gone for a few hours and as soon as I logged in again there were about two new pages worth of replies!! This is truly amazing; I didn't expect to be able to revive the thread with such success.
> 
> So, on to what I've seen you write thus far:
> 
> I think the idea for creating an independent site to be able to take this one step further is great! Don’t worry about the money, as it so happens I'm a Web Designer that also happens to own a certified godaddy.com reseller account, so I'll take care of the domain and the hosting. If this is serious I will have the site up and running in less than a month. If JessieTea or anyone else would like to contribute to the design process by all means! it would be terrific!
> 
>  I did my Bachelors in Graphic Design and have since specialized in Web, so I can have a fully functional, aesthetically pleasing site up and running in no time. I also happen to specialize in the Joomla! mainframe, which is basically a variant of what this site is running on, so we would have forums and administrators with assigned specific privileges much like here. As for positioning our site at the top of browsers (i.e google) I also offer Search Engine Optimization services to my clients, so positioning will also not be a problem.
> 
> I almost feel like this is flowing together WAY too easy, but yes, I agree with the general sentiment that we should get this up and running ASAP and away from here so as to be able to better control it.
> ...



The good thing about your plan over using Ning or some other website is that we'll won't rely on anyone other than ourselves to keep it going.
As I said earlier, it would be very hard for me to physically contribute, but I will definitely help with the designing of the project and the conceptual planning.

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## khellofthewired

excellent! no physical presence is required for now, so don't worry about it. Keep em coming!

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## Dannon Oneironaut

I am for it. Count me in.

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## Naiya

> Ok everyone, I’m back! I was barely gone for a few hours and as soon as I logged in again there were about two new pages worth of replies!! This is truly amazing; I didn't expect to be able to revive the thread with such success.
> 
> So, on to what I've seen you write thus far:
> 
> I think the idea for creating an independent site to be able to take this one step further is great! Don’t worry about the money, as it so happens I'm a Web Designer that also happens to own a certified godaddy.com reseller account, so I'll take care of the domain and the hosting. If this is serious I will have the site up and running in less than a month. If JessieTea or anyone else would like to contribute to the design process by all means! it would be terrific!



*
OK guys, I'm happy for you for wanting to make your project big enough that it needs its own website, however, it IS a competing website to Dreamviews, so please do not do any more planning or advertising for it here on the forums. If you must contact each other, take it to PMs and/or get each other's contact information. Thanks.*

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## Dannon Oneironaut

Competition?!

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## khellofthewired

Will do admin! thanks for the heads up! Okay guys, so its time to pack it up, my account here is still up, and any and all info can and will be handled through there. Lets get this moving!

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## Naiya

> Competition?!



Well, yes....realistically, this forum costs money to maintain. It's not hosted for free like, say, a .ning forum is. Allowing free advertising hurts the website. It's nothing personal--it's just that we would like DV to survive and continue to function without being forced to put annoying ads everywhere.  :Sad:

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## khellofthewired

> Competition?!



I would just like to finally point out to the powers that be that it isn't actually competition, nothing of the sort actually; what we are planning will not involve open discussion forums or anything remotely resembling what dreamviews does, it is simply a site from which those of us involved in the project can review and manage the information being gathered. But if that is the owners decision we will abide by it, have no doubt.

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## zebrah

So sorry. I wasn't trying to get free advertising on here. Are we allowed to talk about it in the chat here or not?

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## Dogod

> Well, yes....realistically, this forum costs money to maintain. It's not hosted for free like, say, a .ning forum is. Allowing free advertising hurts the website. It's nothing personal--it's just that we would like DV to survive and continue to function without being forced to put annoying ads everywhere.



This is going to be a _closed_ discussion forum. It's only for those of us who are planning the project. The actual website will specifically be for volunteers who are not already at one of these forums, and there will be no discussion between participants. We shouldn't be stealing any DV traffic at all with this. The discussion forum will probably only encompass people who are already DV members, and will work side by side with DV. We won't offer anywhere near the amount or quality of services that DV has. If you do believe that it will be in competition, though, I will abide. I just don't think it is.

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## Naiya

> So sorry. I wasn't trying to get free advertising on here. Are we allowed to talk about it in the chat here or not?



Hmm, well, I'd appreciate it if you made a separate room in chat if you do, but generally yeah, it's fine.  :tongue2: 


As for being a competing website, I would still view it as such because we already have a staff-run shared dreaming project in the Deep Dreaming forum here:

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=96313

(If you do not have access to DD, let me know--access is granted to anyone who asks to post there.)

So for example, if people are going to a new website of your creation to engage in a project which we already have at DV, that is competition, because they would otherwise be spending more time here to do the same thing.

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## Dogod

Ah, I see. Can I please have access?

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## khellofthewired

So just to be clear on this everyone, so as not to abuse our hosts good will, are we continuing this in private (via PM's or chat) or are we going to join in on the apparently on going research project already being run in DD? Thoughts anyone?

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## zebrah

could I get axcess I applied but wasn't approved yet.

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## Dogod

> So just to be clear on this everyone, so as not to abuse our hosts good will, are we continuing this in private (via PM's or chat) or are we going to join in on the apparently on going research project already being run in DD? Thoughts anyone?



I'd have to see the ongoing project first (I haven't been approved yet). Right now, I think that we should continue privately, but if the ongoing project is very similar, we can join it.

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## khellofthewired

agreed.

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## nina

If you guys wnted  a private group here on DV for the project, I imgine tht alex would probbly be hppy to oblige with setting up  a privte  group or subforum of BD here for you guyss? Or just prticipte in Deep Dreming...

(very sorry my keybord is broken)

I don't understnd why you would wnt to tke it off the fforum? When our sserch engine rnking iss lredy top notch.

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## zebrah

aquanina. Most of us have applied to deep dreaming and have not been approved yet so we don't know what's going on in that project. We are not leaving DV and we are not going to be competeing with DV. We just want a site we controll and moniter to run expirimets off of. It would be nice if we were allowed to talk about this project even though it is indipendant. According to Niaya I shouldn't be talking to you.  We are planning on actually going out and doing research and I think this is different from what is going on here but I may be wrong. I love DV and I wouldn't do anything to hurt it I just want a place to use for proforming more scientific research.

We need to see the ongoing project first before definate decisions are made.

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## khellofthewired

> If you guys wnted  a private group here on DV for the project, I imgine tht alex would probbly be hppy to oblige with setting up  a privte  group or subforum of BD here for you guyss? Or just prticipte in Deep Dreming...
> 
> (very sorry my keybord is broken)
> 
> I don't understnd why you would wnt to tke it off the forum? When our sserch engine rnking iss lredy top notch.



Because what we are looking for is _not_ (despite what everyone apparently seems to think) a competing site that looks to gather public access users and gain better browser positioning. It is a closed access mainframe from which those of us involved in the project can access, analyze, compare and store information regarding our (physically) controlled environment experimentation and data gathering. No ads, no public chat forums, nothing. This, I presume, is way we can't understand the why exactly behind this ban; but then again, the admins are not mind readers, and I can perfectly understand why they _might_ think that we will compete against the site.

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## zebrah

to the staff and owners of DV. I know if I owned a business that I would be concerned with competitors. But we aren't competing! Atleast for money, at this point if you argue with us it's only for fear of our project turning out better. But that's Insane! This project is for the advancement of our knowledge. Lucid dreaming is free so why fight our research. You are our peers and you are the ones who should review our project and us yours. In science a project must be well documented and repeatable by your peers. Having other like us test your expiriments only makes your work more credible. Please don't become absorb with greed and look at the big picture. Make allies not enemys please. I think you should allow for open discussion of all free projects on dreamviews. 

Zebrah

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## Naiya

Hmm. I just approved everyone who asked last night. It's a subforum of Beyond Dreaming.  ::?:  

Usually Jeff does it, so mayhaps I did it wrong. Please let me know if you're not seeing the forum.

Also, regarding what Nina said, if there was enough support, we may be able to create an invisible forum for shared dreaming and its research here.  :wink2: 

The Admins & owner have already discussed the issue and our wish is that you not _advertise or make plans for_ this other website on the open forums here. If it is a private/closed endeavor, there is no problem with taking your plans to PM or a private room in IRC.

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## zebrah

OK Naiya no problem. Thanks for the approval

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## khellofthewired

Hey there again Naiya. I have indeed received admission privileges into the DD forums. Thank you. As for your comment regarding the creation of an invisible shared dreaming forum, you say that if there is enough support you'd go through with it. What I fail to understand is how we can accrue support if were not permitted to publicly post anymore?

One more question: when and if this project where to go "real life" is it okay to post volunteer requests on the DD forums? if we ever get to a point where the physical presence of project participants is required in closely monitored control environments, can we let that information be known on said forums? So far all experiments I have seen there are at a distance, un-rigorous, trust-what-the-other-person-says kinds of things, not at all what I have in development. So is requesting physical presence volunteers a topic to be avoided as well? I would really like to know beforehand because there is a fair chance that I will get this project up and running with some colleagues and few staff members from the University of California, San Diego (not to mention the support of everyone here interested) so you can imagine that having a good Lucid Dreaming community to contribute to our limited experience in the matter would be priceless! 

I repeat, it would in no way be aimed at competing against ANY website, much less this one, but there would be a need for physically available subjects to participate. So, if it wont be any trouble, can I post the premises for this project in the DD forums? _sans_ the website issue? I can forget about that for now, the main point is securing a viable, steady source of information and experienced people in the matter, after all, all project participants I have talked to have a very good idea of the concepts involved, very much so in fact, but they are still psychologists and med students that are not experienced in the actual _doing_ of any of these things.

I understand that you are not the owner of these forums, but I think he is passing up a very good opportunity to have his site associated with a formal, professionally supervised controlled environ experiment, _regardless_ of its outcome; from a purely business standpoint, he stands much to gain if people associate this already great site with a UCSD run project (UCSD being one of the front and foremost prestigious universities on the western seaboard) Thank you so much for your time and please let me know, so as not to stress this sites rules any further!

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## Dogod

I'd rather not have this turn into an argument that gets us banned from DV. I looked over the DD thread and it looks completely different from what we're trying to do. The thread in DD is for members of DV who want to share dreams. We're trying to create a scientific experiment that has nothing to do with DV. While the DD thread is for people who want to experience shared dreaming, our website will be for us. We're certainly not competing with that thread. 




> If you guys wnted  a private group here on DV for the project, I imgine tht alex would probbly be hppy to oblige with setting up  a privte  group or subforum of BD here for you guyss? Or just prticipte in Deep Dreming...
> 
> (very sorry my keybord is broken)
> 
> I don't understnd why you would wnt to tke it off the fforum? When our sserch engine rnking iss lredy top notch.



There are a few reasons I wanted to take it off DV. The first is that, if we have our own website, then we're not dependent on DV for anything. The second is that we want a private place to talk about the experiment, and although it can be created by DV, it wouldn't be the same as having our own forums. The third, and probably most important, reason is that we want a home page. This will allow us to program in a sign-up page for the general public, in which people who want to can sign up for the experiment. I don't think DV can provide us with a home page, and even if it could, it wouldn't be controlled by us. The fourth reason is that we want to have email addresses not tied to Gmail or another service.
The only thing the subforum could offer us is a private place to talk about the experiment.

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## zebrah

Yeah I know Dogod I wouldn't want to get banned but I think at this point we are still having a discussion. The way the situation is we should just get the website going and forget about even speaking of it on DV. All I would like permission to do (not me specifically but anyone involved in our project) Is post a forum for people interested in doing a research project. I would not post the website URL in the forum only through PM would that be ok? If not then that will be the last you hear of this from me on DV.

Also anyone interested click the pic in my sig. It's a WILD technique my little brother came up with when he was 4. Before I even knew what lucid dreaming was. I interviewed him and it is really quite amazing. Keep in mind he had never read or heard how a WILD was done before I interviewed him. So this is all his creation. (Hes 8)

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## nina

Why dont you guys draft up a formal proposal and PM it to alex. Maybe there is something that can be worked out. But you need to talk to him directly.

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## Naiya

> Hey there again Naiya. I have indeed received admission privileges into the DD forums. Thank you. As for your comment regarding the creation of an invisible shared dreaming forum, you say that if there is enough support you'd go through with it. What I fail to understand is how we can accrue support if were not permitted to publicly post anymore?



Huh? No one said you couldn't talk about shared dreaming or shared dreaming projects. All I asked is that if you are going to be doing it on a separate website, not to advertise or plan for the WEBSITE.  :tongue2: 

As for getting public support for a SD forum or something like it on DV...you're welcome to make a thread in Meta for that.  :wink2: 






> So, if it wont be any trouble, can I post the premises for this project in the DD forums? sans the website issue? I can forget about that for now, the main point is securing a viable, steady source of information and experienced people in the matter, after all, all project participants I have talked to have a very good idea of the concepts involved, very much so in fact, but they are still psychologists and med students that are not experienced in the actual doing of any of these things.



That would be no problem.

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## zebrah

OK, so we have this all worked out then right? Thanks for you time niaya

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## Naiya

Looks like it. Good luck & have fun, guys.  :smiley:

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## Moto

> ... no. Just no.



 Um yah bro, wake up and smell the tea leaves, cause science has been corrupt for awhile.  Look at the whole ClimateGate scenario.  Not only did they share what they wanted the data to show, but they also covered it up with the government lol.  Its all about funding, and this attitude as gone to the *mainstream science*.  Science isn't corrupt, * mainstream science* is.  Everything that you see in the public spectrum is really a load of horseshit.  Its been confuddled for awhile to make people stay sheeple.  Look up Vitalism, oh wait, Materialism eradicated that concept haha.  Look up torsion fields, oh wait, there are several websites from Russia on the subject being blocked.  Look up morphogenetic fields.  Its out there, but its hard to find the true scientific forum, because there is so much disinfo on the subject.  But it is all going to come out, and hopefully soon.  Namaste

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## Kaylor

I think that the only way you could really prove that a shared dream occurred would be to transfer information from one person to another. For instance, a code word, or a number code that they could repeat after the dream is recalled. 

Besides that... it seems like it can only be proved to yourself. Which, in most cases, is more than enough.

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## Dogod

I think that was the plan - have people transfer some information to the other people which they couldn't have figured out any other way.

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## Nerq

I've read through a bit of the thread, not all of it.  But I'm very interested in the questions behind shared dreaming.  And I believe I've actually experienced it before.  About half of a week after the night I had this specific dream that I'll explain more about in a second, I was talking to my best friend that was accompanying me in the dream, and before I could tell him all of the story, he got all excited and finished the plot with key items that there's no way he should have known.  

The dream was a lucid dream.  I'd been conscious in my dream for awhile, but I took a little bit of a dark area and regained consciousness walking down a sidewalk.  I was walking with my friend, Jeremy.  And just like in a few other dreams I've had, we talked about how this was a dream, and all of the things we could do.  How awesome it was, and stuff like that.  And the street was actually the street that my house is on.  Then later on in that dream we walked into the elementary school down the street from my house, and started really getting into inventing cool things out of the dream.  But then quickly after entering, I was forced off, and I got separated, way far away.  But I flew back in search to re-join the fun, and couldn't find anyone.  

Surrounding facts about that story that convinced me afterwards were these;  I was taking a trip to the mountains, I was an hour and a half away from my city that my friend and I both live in.  I had this dream on a Saturday, the second night I was there.  Then on the following week on something like Tuesday or Wednesday, I talked to my friend.  And already at this point we've been into lucid dreaming for a long time.  We talk about it a lot.  And I started telling him that I had that cool dream in the mountains over the phone, and he partially throws in that he had an interesting one too, but I kept going.  And I said we were walking down the sidewalk, and talking about lucid dreaming and stuff.  (PAUSE) This is where I shit bricks, he was like "Wait, hold on.  Were we right by your house? Walking down the street around that school?"

We flipped out.  I've continued advancing pretty decently with lucid dreaming and stuff.  And it's honestly been one of my... sub-goals in life to find out about shared dreaming.  I think if I can figure out how to trigger it, there would be so much potential for heightened communication with another person.  I believe if minds entered a synced state, there would be so much more of a empathetic emotional transfer that I would really appreciate.  I would like to see other people's world's, and the strange moments that they put abstract thoughts into, and also show other people my thoughts.  I think I could show people a lot of things that would change them.  So, that's my two cents on the subject.

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## Dr Who

I can honestly see no credible theory that can realistically postulate that shared LDs are possible. I really think you're wasting your time which would be much better spent looking for ways of developing a device that can kick you into an LD with 100% certainty, like the holoband in Caprica.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that our consciousness is anything but a biproduct of our neural structure and activity. To postulate anything else is getting into the mumbo jumbo of religions. And look what good that's done our species. I know that its very appealing to think there may other worlds or dimensions that we can appreciate but although a multiverse is quite a possibility, all the evidence suggests that we're stuck here in our 4 dimensions and that when our brain ceases to function we're as effective as we were before we were born.

What possible credible theory can you offer to suggest our dream states could be shared in realtime ?

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## Nerq

> I can honestly see no credible theory that can realistically postulate that shared LDs are possible. I really think you're wasting your time which would be much better spent looking for ways of developing a device that can kick you into an LD with 100% certainty, like the holoband in Caprica.
> 
> There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that our consciousness is anything but a biproduct of our neural structure and activity. To postulate anything else is getting into the mumbo jumbo of religions. And look what good that's done our species. I know that its very appealing to think there may other worlds or dimensions that we can appreciate but although a multiverse is quite a possibility, all the evidence suggests that we're stuck here in our 4 dimensions and that when our brain ceases to function we're as effective as we were before we were born.
> 
> What possible credible theory can you offer to suggest our dream states could be shared in realtime ?



I wanted to question what your intentions were for this.  You say you see no credible theory that can realistically accommodate shared dreaming, but I don't think that you've had any graduations in psychology and what not.  If you have, how then does someone understanding the scientific method of investigation think to throw out the idea that, because a person doesn't understand something, it shouldn't be discussed or looked into any further? 

There's no evidence for quantum logic computers with data processed by light other than theory and speculation until recently, when scientists found an agent that was capable of binding two light molecules.  Just explaining, that sometimes we don't know amounts of information about something because we can't modulate it *yet*.  

Then, there's no evidence to account for the mind being a product of neural structures and activity, but the question that we can investigate into is; "Can our natural mental activity produce connections in dream patterns?"  Definitely not, "can the brain magically do magic things?".  There's also no evidence against shared dreams occurring to add to that.  I don't believe everything I read on the internet, but I've heard just a few convincing stories along with experiencing what I explain in a few comments above.

The fourth dimension multiverse thing threw me off, something about being born and dying.  Then you turned what you'd been saying into a question, what possible theory can anyone suggest that dream states could be shared in real time?  Which now I might just be being too technical, but shared dreaming has been questioned to exist in real time and in episodes of time lapses between shared experiences.  I have no neurological experiment able to process the question but I still think there's a big point in discussing and look it over here, when qualified.  For it's potentials sake.  And it's margin of uncertainty.

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## MariaIsabelPita

Dream Partners: An Ongoing Experiment in Lucid Dream Sharing
_
*Link removed, as linking to sites selling merchandise is not allowed_

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## floatinghead

I suspect that, (if shared dreaming is possible) it will take a similar route that lucid dreaming took before it, whereby people report and log the experiences first and then science follows by coming up with various ideas and theories to why and how it works. 

_This just in_ - if science cannot explain something it does not mean that it does not exist!

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