# Sleep and Dreams > Research >  >  Using Caffeine as a Trigger

## Xanous

*Purpose* Looking for participants.

I am looking for participants to join my on going study and try to determine the causes of success and failure. I have to say that if you are sensitive to caffeine or you don't regularly ingest caffeine during the day then you should consider another form of LDS.I have had several successes using a small dose of caffeine as a lucid trigger. When I started in Dec. of last year I recored about 10 successes with WBTB and a few sips of strong coffee. Later I switched to cutting caffeine pills to get a more accurate record of caffeine amounts. Eventually my success rate dropped significantly. The only reason I could think of was that I wore myself out as I began to lose sleep every night. The biggest issue with using caffeine as a trigger is that I would often experience some insomnia about 1 - 1.5 hours after the dose. I began to lower my dose to 50-100MG Caffeine and that seems to significantly reduce it. I will continue trials and post successes and failures here. I encourage anyone interested to do the same. 

But please, *be smart and use caution. Listen to your body.*

*Method*

*WBTB*

Usually after 4 - 5 hours of sleep do a WBTB. Due to possible insomnia I suggest taking your dose 2 hours before your desired wake time. A longer WBTB is preferred so if I want to do a 30 minute WBTB I get up 2.5 hours before my wake time. At 2 hours before my wake time I take a dose of caffeine and promptly go back to bed and do a quick induction technique.

My preferred techniques include, SSILD, MILD and possibly WILD. WILD is one I haven't tested as much but with a low enough dose I can see the mild wakefulness being useful.

Currently I only test caffeine probably once or twice per week. Anything beyond that is tiring and unhealthy, in my experience. As you'll notice, I included 100-200MG B6 with some of my caffeine doses. While I think it increases vividness I don't feel that it is an actual trigger, at least for me. Really, this is more about caffeine and not B6. I occasionally included some melatonin to combat insomnia but I am trying to get away from that as it interferes with REM. 

Also, since REM is ideal for lucid dreams and the time to peak plasma is about 1 hour it would be ideal to actually be in REM around that time. According to my trials, success is highly dependent on this. Most of my LD's from caffeine have ended around 1 - 1.5 hours. I am not saying this is completely necessary as I haven't fully explored caffeine WILD but I think it would be preferred. Too a lot if it depends on tolerance and dosage. That's something for the individual to play around with.

*Technical Data*

Time to Peek Plasma -  (the time it takes to reach highest levels) approx. 1 hour
Elimination Half-Life - (the time required for the body to eliminate one-half of the total amount of caffeine) – 5 - 6 hours but can vary greatly

I could cut and paste effects and why or how it works but its best to just go to Wikipedia - Caffeine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I will probably add just the important information along with my own thoughts later.





> Thomas Yuschak's Caffeine Research
> Thomas Yuschak (well-known for his work in Lucid Dreaming Supplements and the author of "Advanced Lucid Dreaming") was doing some research into how caffeine could be used as a lucid aid. The focus here was on combining caffeine with a classic galantamine + choline trigger in order to increase its effectiveness. This could be a nice resource for this thread.
> 
> http://lucidconsciousness.com/wp-con...cid-Dreams.pdf



*Past Successes / Doses*
*
Half Cup Strong Coffee*
12.5.12 - Lucid #98 The Woman in Pink Scrubs - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
12.9.12 - Lucid #101 Penis Chop & #102 Flying With My Wife / TOTM Fail - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
12.11.12 - Lucid #104 brief WILD - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
12.16.12 - #106 The Demon Returns - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

*Half Cup Strong Coffee, 2MG melatonin, 200MG B6*
12.6.12 - Lucid #99 December TOTM fail - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
12.10.12 - Lucid # 103 Jingle Bells in the Snow TOTM - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
12.25.12 - #110 New exit tests - DILD? DEILD chain - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
*
Half Cup Strong Coffee, 2MG melatonin*
12.8.12 - Lucid #100 Toilet Dreamsign DILD - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

*Half Cup Strong Coffee, 200MG B6*
12.15.12 - Physical Sensations Lucid #105 - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
*
Strong Cup Green Tea*
12.23.12 - #109 Damned Rainbow Demon WILD - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

*50MG Caffeine*
1.9.13 - The Naked Chick At Work - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

*50MG Caffeine 100MG B6*
1.12.13 - Headlights - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

*100MG Caffeine Pill, 2MG Melatonin, 200B6*
12.26.12 - 111 The Headless Boy - DILD - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

*100MG Caffeine Pill*
1.4.13 - with 5mg Melatonin - TOTY Fail - Roman Colosseum - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
2.27.12 - Vibrations and Lucid Fragments - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

*200MG Caffeine Pill*
1.3.13 - I Didn't Mean To Scare You - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

(There is more to add later but this is fine for now)

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## Alucinor XIII

I'm very interested to see how this goes. As you know Xan, my first ever WILD was due to waking up and drinking a half-a-cup of coffee. 

I may join in exclusively on weekends/days off. I think it may be worth clarifying NOT to use any coffee drinks like Monster or the Starbucks canned "doubleshot" things. They have a lot of Vitamin B6 and B12, as well as other vitamins and guarana, etc. Same goes for the 5 hour energy drinks. The massive amounts of B vitamins will surely skew some results. =]

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## Xanous

Yeah I forgot about that! I would really love to see results other than my own. Thanks for playing along! 

That's a very good point about energy drinks. I had not considered that since I never drink the stuff any more. And you're right, I really don't want it to be about B vitamins or any other substance. We should also point out that anything with sugar could carry some effects as well. So we'll ban anything with sugar or no vitamins or any other additives. It should be black coffee, unsweetened teas without cream, or caffeine pills. I think Excedrin might be OK. I read in another forum someone was using that since it had something like 65MG caffeine. The acetaminophen should be harmless but I'd rather not use it every time.

Also, I should note that there is a somewhat popular method involving caffeine withdrawals then a WBTB dose. I found this to be completely unnecessary and the one time I tried it I was miserable and failed my caffeine attempt that night anyway. With that said, perhaps we shouldn't discount it completely. I'd be open to trying it again.

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## CanisLucidus

Sounds great, Xanous!  I'm definitely down for trying some caffeine experiments again.  I'm going to target one caffeine trial per week.

*Successful Trial*
I had one majorly successful trial in the past where I had 2 lucid dreams in one night using caffeine.  Here are the dreams:

Dream #1 - Pool Care in the Temple of Zeus - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Dream #2 - Crowbar Clint - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Here are the precise steps that I followed to get 2 LDs in one night.  Admittedly, they are ugly.   :Cheeky: 
1. Fall asleep thinking about going through a portal or white door.
2. WBTB after 3 hours. This natural waking was a little early, so I probably would have passed it up in favor of a later one if I hadn't been so excited.
3. Stay awake for ~30 minutes. Drink 2 cups (16 fl. oz.) of green tea (est. 40mg caffeine.) Take 0.75mg of melatonin.
4. Perform 5 cycles of SSILD. Try to fall asleep ASAP. Fail after 30 minutes.
5. Realize I am hopelessly wired from the caffeine. Take additional 0.75mg melatonin, for a total of 1.5 mg.
6. 3 cycles SSILD, then sleep. (Although not immediately.)
7. Hit LD #1. Wake up, fail DEILD. Commit dream to memory. 3 cycles SSILD, back to sleep. Hit LD #2.

*Thomas Yuschak's Caffeine Research*
Thomas Yuschak (well-known for his work in Lucid Dreaming Supplements and the author of "Advanced Lucid Dreaming") was doing some research into how caffeine could be used as a lucid aid.  The focus here was on combining caffeine with a classic galantamine + choline trigger in order to increase its effectiveness.  This could be a nice resource for this thread.

http://lucidconsciousness.com/wp-con...cid-Dreams.pdf

I'll be watching this thread closely.  I think that there's a lot to learn about the best way to use caffeine!  Lots of variables to play with here.

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## TwoCrystalCups

I drink everyday 3-4 cups of coffee, coffee is known for recovery of memory. Also i realize i start to recall dreams after a cup of coffee when i wake.
Shall we drink it before bed or only during the day?

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## Xanous

> I drink everyday 3-4 cups of coffee, coffee is known for recovery of memory. Also i realize i start to recall dreams after a cup of coffee when i wake.
> Shall we drink it before bed or only during the day?



I think don't theres any need to change your daily caffeine consumption for now.  I don't know if this is what you meant or not but, WBTB would be best rather than before bed at the first of night.

Also, I forgot to mention that it seems that since I usually wake within 1-1.5 hours it's really ideal to enter REM with in that time frame. So getting back to sleep quickly would be ideal. If you are doing WILD perhaps a really low dose or try catching the back side of it as it begins to wear off a bit. I see the value of hitting the target hour time and then waiting out any insomnia with a WILD attempt. Sort of like getting a second chance.

@CanisLucidus: Thanks for the extra info!

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## TwoCrystalCups

I did wbtb but not drinking coffee in between lol that would not help me sleep

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## Xanous

The idea is that a really small amount of caffeine during WBTB will trigger lucidity when you go back to sleep.

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## Xanous

Night of March 3, 2013 
*Dose*: 50MG
*Supporting Supplements*: None
*Bedtime*: 10:30PM
*WBTB wake time*: 3:30AM
*Dose Time*: 3:50AM
*Technique*: MILD
*Lucid*: No

I took 50MG Caffeine and went back to sleep quickly. I was really tired and I didn't do MILD very well.

At *4:54AM* I recorded a dream about having hermit crabs in our house and trying to get rid of them. I put them in a clear cylinder that resembled snail shells at the grocery store. Then my daughter went to school but the school was a part of our house. She took a doll with her.


I felt slight wakefulness and it took a few minutes to get back to sleep but it wasn't any trouble. I did better MILD cycles this time.

At *6:00AM* the alarm woke me and I recorded a very vivid dream about doing some plumbing work in a large basement. I was trying to de-solder some pipe joints when the boss wasn't looking. I felt like I screwed up and didn't want to look stupid. Some attractive DC woman walked by and said, "Hey handsome, I going to be at Miller's Bar & Grill tonight if you wanna going me..." She had a 1920's gangster woman way of talking and I thought she must be slightly mentally ill. To be polite and humor her I said, "Yeah, I guess so." I trying to be as noncommittal as possible but didn't want to give a flat refusal.  I thought she had left when I went back to work but then she come back and tried to shake my hand. She said something like, "I said HELLO, can you answer me?" I shake her hand and see that she had impossibly short fingers. I am a little grossed out. Then the alarm goes off and I feel myself get sucked out of the dream.

Then I hit snooze and tried to DEILD. I visualized the TARDIS floating in space. This time I didn't remember much. I remember seeing the Doctor but it was like watching TV.

It seems like the dose was more effective for the second dream than the first. I am not sure why that would be. I didn't have a lucid but I enjoyed the dreams. They were odd and interesting.

I think next time I will go for 75ish MG. I am also considering supporting supplements like menthol, GPC, B6 but I am afraid it will ruin the test results as those supplement can be triggers for some alone. Also I wonder if REM suppressants like 5HTP or a high dose of melatonin would be beneficial. What do you guys think? Would that be adding too much to the mix?

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## Alyzarin

This seems like a pretty good idea for those who aren't too sensitive to it. I'll unfortunately be sitting this one out for that reason, but I'm interested to see the results!





> Also I wonder if REM suppressants like 5HTP or a high dose of melatonin would be beneficial. What do you guys think? Would that be adding too much to the mix?



I assume you mean taking them when you originally go to bed? That could be interesting....

I've done some research on REM rebound and they found a link between it and cannabinoid CB1 receptors in the hippocampus. Those receptors are also known to induce REM at only certain times of the day, with the best time for it presumably being still technically during the night but after a few REM cycles have already passed (in other words, a WBTB?), and they have hallucinogenic effects which likely play an important role in the generation of dreams. Adenosine A1 receptors, which caffeine inhibits, directly oppose the effects of hippocampal CB1 receptors. That means that caffeine should allow endocannabinoids to produce their dream-related effects more strongly when taking at the right time. This is of course in addition to increase the release of acetylcholine, which induces the synthesis and release of endocannabinoids there. So I would be willing to bet that effectively combining it with REM rebound could produce some nice results.

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## Xanous

Yes,  I mean prebed suppressants. Thats very helpful and interesting info there. Thanks.  I may give it a shot on my next trail. 

Have you put any thought into how effective alcohol is as a REM suppressants compared to 5HTP and melatonin?

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## Alyzarin

No problem.  :smiley: 

Well, I can tell you from experience that it is effective lol. But also easy to overdo, at least if you drink like I do. But I usually get lucid, have some really trippy dream(s), or have hypnopompia after I drink. Sometimes to the point of fully rendered people having conversations with me briefly when I wake up on that last one, only to vanish when I close my eyes. That's gotta count for something.... Melatonin is actually GABAergic at least in some respect, so I'm guessing that alcohol is doing something similar but much more potently. However, just because it's effective doesn't necessarily mean it's preferable. I certainly wouldn't suggest alcohol to anyone as a lucid aid.

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## Xanous

Heehee. I've gotten some pretty good lucids after a night of mild drinking. But you are right about it not being a preferred lucid aid and it is easy to over do it. I try not to talk about it too much on here but I'm just thinking if I am going to drink anyway, then I may as well plan for it being a factor.

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## Xanous

Night of March 8, 2013
*Dose:* 125isMG (I couldn't cut the pill straight  :Sad:  I wanted 100MG)
*Supporting Supplements:* All Prebed: 15MG Melatonin, 32oz light beer, 300MG B6
*Bedtime:* 10:45PM
*WBTB wake time:* 3:00AM
*Dose Time:* 3:00AM
*Technique:* MILD
*Lucid:* No

I have an extremely vivid visual dream about an approaching storm. I am trying to park my car but the breaks and transmission wont cooperate. The other cars keep getting in the way. It takes a long time to finally get parked. I see the approaching storm. I wanted to watch lightning so I waited. I can't hear anything because my wife is next to my talking really loud and the radio is turned up. I sort of rudely tell her to be quite and listen. This brilliant ball of lightning appears in the sky and dances around all crazy. It turns into may symbols and geometric shapes. The light is almost blinding but I feel no pain in my eyes. I get extremely excited and try to get the DCs standing around to look but they seem disinterested. Then, the lighting turns into an advertisement. It clearly makes the word *SKECHERS* then *SYNERGY*. I lose my excitement as I soon realize its just a high tech holographic billboard. I say to myself, "That's a little disappointing but still really cool." I wake up. I have been asleep 60min.

BTW, I Googled "skechers synergy" and found out there is a womens training shoe by that name.  ::shock:: 

My recall seems to get a huge boost after this and I record several dreams that I'll post to my DJ soon.

EDIT: It really seems like I have had better luck with B6/Caffeine combo. I didn't want this to be about B6 but maybe the two together is ideal. Perhaps there is something important to consider here? 

Also what effect does natural caffeine from coffee have that gave me more consistent results in the beginning? Is there something else in coffee or is it a mental association of coffee and alertness? Perhaps my next trial I'll use actual coffee with B6.

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## Alyzarin

Wow... that was awesome.  ::lol:: 





> Also what effect does natural caffeine from coffee have that gave me more consistent results in the begining? Is there something else in coffee or is it a mental association of coffee and alertness? Perhaps my next trial I'll use actual coffee with B6.



There is nothing different about the caffeine. However, coffee also contains harman and norharman. Each of these are MAO inhibitors, and therefore increase levels of monoamines, especially serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, and trace amines like tryptamine and phenethylamine. Harman is also an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor like galantamine, and there is possibly at least one unidentified muscarinic acetylcholine agonist (direct or indirect, I'm not sure) in there as well. And that's in addition to other things. When you drink coffee, you're getting much more than just caffeine.

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## Xanous

> Wow... that was awesome. 
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing different about the caffeine. However, coffee also contains harman and norharman. Each of these are MAO inhibitors, and therefore increase levels of monoamines, especially serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, and trace amines like tryptamine and phenethylamine. Harman is also an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor like galantamine, and there is possibly at least one unidentified muscarinic acetylcholine agonist (direct or indirect, I'm not sure) in there as well. And that's in addition to other things. When you drink coffee, you're getting much more than just caffeine.



Thanks  ::D:  Sometimes I love my NLDs just as much as my LDs!

Right, as suspected. Based on what you said, it would seem that coffee would be preferred over the pill. Also, I think I shrugged this off a little to much, I need to consider tolerance levels as I am a daily coffee drinker. I seem to recall having a brief reduction in coffee consumption prior to my initial trials. I dug this up from my intro class workbook date 12-01-2012.





> Cool experiment with the caffeine! This probably worked so well because you've spent quite a lot of time in caffeine withdrawal. I feel like I heard about a strategy like this at some point in the past... something about habitual coffee drinkers stopping for a while, then suddenly reintroducing it...? If I run across it again I'll let you know.







> I agree with all you said. And I have read a thread about caffeine withdraw inducing lucid dreams. I'm not sure it was so much withdraw because I only went a few days totally without but I did cut back so maybe.



I think I'll begin to cut way back to 1-2 cup in the morning and see if this makes any difference.

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## Alyzarin

Good luck with that then.  :smiley:  That probably would change it, caffeine tolerance can make quite a difference. Daily caffeine intake actually is probably lowering your chances of getting lucid. Obviously you still have a better chance when you take the caffeine for getting lucid than when you don't, but the chances will still be lower overall. That CB1-A1 relationship I describe becomes effected with chronic use, and those CB1 receptors are going to be losing some of their effects necessary for REM and dreaming due to upregulation of A1.

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## Xanous

I have been told this before but with out any real reason as to why. Do you really think daily caffeine reduces the chance of getting lucid or is that just based on data? Although most of my lucids seem brief; I seem to have plenty lately. If caffeine does in fact hinder lucidity overall then I wonder the effect it will have by quitting altogether save for a weekly caffeine wbtb. Though I love coffee, it may be worth the effort.

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## Alyzarin

I do think that, since A1 receptors directly inhibit CB1 receptors in the hippocampus, and upregulation of A1 means more of the receptor. Now if you want a deeper explanation than that... I don't think you're going to get one lol. I don't think they know that much about why those CB1 receptors work the way they do yet, but I do believe that they're critical in sleep. I've actually read studies showing that anandamide, one of the big endocannabinoids, induces REM chronically without any tolerance or withdrawal, and that definitely seems to fit with dreaming to me.

You may be able to get lucid frequently even with drinking caffeine every day, but... well, consider the fact that I can get lucid frequently with smoking weed every day. That's a pretty well-known REM destroyer. Just because you're able to overcome your self-inflicted handicap doesn't mean you wouldn't do even better without it. I'm willing to bet that it would be even easier for you to become lucid if you cut out that caffeine consumption.

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## Xanous

> Just because you're able to overcome your self-inflicted handicap doesn't mean you wouldn't do even better without it. I'm willing to bet that it would be even easier for you to become lucid if you cut out that caffeine consumption.



Well, it's worth a shot. For science!

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## Alyzarin

Good luck!  ::content::

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## CanisLucidus

Night of March 9, 2013
*Dose:* 2 bags green tea
*Supporting Supplements:* All Prebed: 6 mg melatonin, one of Wife's Oreo-stuffed chocolate chip cookies  ::smitten:: 
*Bedtime:* 11:00PM
*WBTB wake time:* 4:00AM (Note!  Spring forward time change!)
*Dose Time:* 4:25AM
*Technique:* MILD
*Lucid:* No, but close!

I got lots of fun, vivid dreams from this experiment, although no lucids.  My last NLD was me observing as Joshua Jackson from "Fringe" went through a long, introspective lucid dream where he concluded that the only thing he had in his empty life was video games.  It's disturbing that this didn't get me lucid, but I still like having a close call.

Apart from that, lots of dreams with action, combat, and victory.  All were happy rather than gritty.  Even the one zombie apocalypse dream was light-hearted!  Overall a great night of dreaming and I got nearly 8 hours of sleep.  (Very unusual for me.)

I'm also sick w/ a sore throat right now, which didn't do me any favors.  I got little sleep the night before, so there's some possible REM rebound going on.  Anyway, the fact that I got through the WBTB so easily tells me that I can raise to 3 (or more) bags of green tea next time.

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## Xanous

Very cool action dreams! Did you feel your recall was higher than normal? I've noticed that on the time that I'm able to beat insomnia.

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## CanisLucidus

Thanks!  I did feel like recall was nice and high.  I only wrote down keywords for one dream but when I woke up I remembered at least 6 and possibly 7 dreams.  For me, that's really high.  Granted, I was really trying to remember them between dreams but that's up there.

I think that if I wasn't fighting this illness I'd have had a great shot at the LD.  I think that next caffeine night I'll try 3 tea bags and see how that goes!  (Should be, what 60-75 mg caffeine?)

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## Xanous

Very cool on recall! I think the 50-100 mg range is the most effective. I'm excited to see how it goes for you.

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## Xanous

Night of March 13, 2013
*Dose*: 100MG
*Supporting Supplements*: none
*Bedtime*: 10:00PM
*WBTB wake time*: 3:30AM-4:00AM
*Dose Time*: 4:00AM
*Technique*: SSILD
*Lucid*: No

Well I'm really confused and disappointed. I went without caffeine since Sunday morning. I woke naturally and did a 30min WBTB and took *100MG Caffeine pill*. (I forgot to make coffee) I woke up an hour later with zero recall! I had mild wakefulness for a few minutes and woke to the alarm an hour later with zero recall. I am not sure why. I usually have a very vivid dream at the least that first hour and then awesome recall after. Did I just have a weak REM cycle? Was it bad timing? At least I was lucid just before my WBTB.

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## Alyzarin

Don't give up after a single trial! It could have just been a bad day for it. Even people with the best recall ever have days where they remember nothing. I also took two cholinergic supplements last night and got nada. Maybe it was just a bad night to dream.  ::whyme::

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## Xanous

Yeah you might be right.  I think REM cycles are hard to predict and they seem to vary. I think its a timing issue with caffeine. Im not cutting caffeine completely any more but keeping it limited to one cup if any at all. That should still be alright I think.

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## Xanous

I took a higher dose of caffeine this time because I wanted to WILD on the back side of peek plasma levels. I added melatonin and menthol as an afterthought. 

*Dose*: Pre-bed: A little Guinness WBTB: 4AM 200MG Caffeine, 5:41AM 1MG Melatonin, 6:05AM 2 tablespoons peppermint leaves in tea.
*Side Effects*: mildly upset stomach
*Sleep Duration*: 5hrs/1hr
*WBTB*: Yes 2(brief then 1 hrs 40min)
*Lucid*: Yes (sort of)
*Vividness*: Medium to high
*Stability*: Low
*Dream Comments*: I woke a little after 5am from a non vivid NLD about texting my friend Zack in the cart garage at a Wal-Mart. I lay down and stared at a celling fan when I woke up. I definitely could tell my tolerance to caffeine has been significantly lowered since I reduced my daily intake. I felt very awake and could tell that heart rate went up and started breathing faster. 

Later the menthol gave me very strong sexual HI and made it very difficult to relax for awhile. Finally around 7AM I started going to sleep.

Ok now the interesting part. I had maybe 6 or 7 DILDs after this. The only problem was that as soon as I realized I was dreaming I would immediately wake up. Each time I would be still not moving and continue to WILD. I tried several tricks. Counting, repetitive "motion", focusing on the body, and SSILD. All were effective but with each DILD I still woke up. I don't remember the dreams because I didn't want to move to record them. I unsuccessfully tried to commit them to memory but they were just random little snippets anyway. Then, the alarm got me at 8am. (I had something I had to do at 9) I snoozed for a while but didn't have time to DILD before the next alarm. I really think that if I had had a few more hours to sleep I would have eventually got it. I may repeat this next Saturday morning only with a slightly smaller caffeine dose. Overall, I really think the menthol added that little extra "boost" and was quite pleased with the result.

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## CanisLucidus

Night of March 16, 2013
*Dose:* 4 bags green tea
*Supporting Supplements:* All Prebed: 6 mg melatonin, 1 bag of popcorn, 1 ice cream sandwich
*Bedtime:* 11:40PM
*WBTB wake time:* 5:00AM
*Dose Time:* 5:25AM
*Technique:* MILD
*Lucid:* One micro-lucid.

Dream recall wasn't bad (5 dreams total, 3 of them post-WBTB) but vividness wasn't as high as last time.  I did catch one micro-lucid but it blew up in about 3 seconds.  I wanted to DEILD with it but I woke up all the way and had really strong sensations of my physical body.

I was glad to get the micro but I wonder why I couldn't flow with it into a DEILD.  Do I need some extra stability?  Some kind of anchor?  The idea of adding some L-theanine occurs to me.

And then, of course, your combined coffee/menthol cross-training experiment had nice results!  Looks like a fun one to try, too.  Decisions decisions...

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## Xanous

Nice recall! And a score for lucid!  It will be interesting to read your DJ entry.  Interesting idea for L-Theanine. I am starting to think some sort of caffeine stack is necessary to get consistent results.

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## CanisLucidus

> Nice recall! And a score for lucid!  It will be interesting to read your DJ entry.  Interesting idea for L-Theanine. I am starting to think some sort of caffeine stack is necessary to get consistent results.



Thanks!  I don't normally journal micro-lucids online, since I don't add them to my count.  Here's the journal entry for it if you're interested:

"I'm in a dimly lit stone hallway.  There's light up ahead.  I realize that it makes no sense that I'm here and I become lucid.  My mind is filled with thoughts about how green tea tastes.  Something about neurochemistry.

I start to move but it's coming apart.  I get ready to DEILD.  I wake up and am so aware of my physical body that I can't go anywhere with the DEILD."

I interpreted that as perhaps some kind of over-excitement problem or just coming too easily to a full awakening.  Micro-lucids like that are great fuel for _real_ LDs, I think, but it requires a relaxed mind and the ability to DEILD.  I noticed that your micro-lucids were also a little unstable with caffeine and I was wondering if we were facing the same problem.  That's what made me think of the L-theanine.

And yeah, caffeine seems to work best at enhancing another stack (which means there are even more possible combos to try!)  It seems like Yuschak was moving in the same direction with his ideas for how it could enhance G+C.

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## Xanous

Oh that really is micro.  ::lol::  But still. I call it a success for caffeine! It's better than my recent failures.

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## Xanous

I was thinking about Taurine today. I was wondering why they add it to energy drinks along with B vitamins (and other stuff). I actually take a dose of Taurine and B6 before I go on my longer bike rides and find that I perform much better. So I did some searching and found that Taurine activates GABA receptors in the brain. So if I read it right, that promotes calm mental focus. Also, I have read other blog entries and DV posts that claim Taurine seems to give more vivid dreams. This has got me a little excited about adding it as a supporting supplement or even trying it as a stand alone aid. I've barely scratched the surface there but what do ya'll think?

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## Alyzarin

It seems like it could be useful. I might help make your sleep deeper too, since it is a sedative. The GABA (And glycine) receptor activity it has does cause that calm mental state and will probably enhance dreams too, but it's not what makes you focused. Most GABA drugs actually unfocus you, but taurine seems to get around this. It's known to enhance long-term potentiation in the hippocampus through other receptors which is probably related to it, and will probably also increase recall and vividness if taken at the right time. I don't think it would hurt to give it a shot.

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## Xanous

Ah, I see. Well I did read that bit about enhancing long-term potentiation in the hippocampus but I wasnt sure what that meant yet. Im very slowly learning all this brain chemistry stuff.  :Cheeky: 

Anyway, as long we don't see any big error here, I think I'll work some in soon. Thanks, Alyzarin.

----------


## CanisLucidus

Sounds like a very fun idea, Xanous!  I may have to pick up a little taurine myself or I'm going to be all sad when I hear about all the fun you're having.   ::D: 

Man.  The shopping list for my next "goodies" purchase has gotten ridiculously long!

----------


## Alyzarin

> Ah, I see. Well I did read that bit about enhancing long-term potentiation in the hippocampus but I wasnt sure what that meant yet. Im very slowly learning all this brain chemistry stuff. 
> 
> Anyway, as long we don't see any big error here, I think I'll work some in soon. Thanks, Alyzarin.



No problem.  ::content::  And the simple version is that it's involved in memory and spatial learning, possibly among some other things, so having more of it is usually good. That's probably all you need to know for basic stuff at the moment.  :tongue2:  (Oh, and it's direct opposite is long-term depression.)

----------


## Xanous

Night of March 18, 2013 - *Failure*
*Dose*: 100MG
*Supporting Supplements*: 100MG B6, 500MG Taurine
*Bedtime*: 10:00PM
WBTB: 3:30AM brief
*Dose Time*: 3:30AM
*Technique*: SSILD
*Side Effects:* Wakefulness, gurgling stomach
*Lucid*: No

I am starting to think that caffeine is more of a recall booster than a lucid trigger. Perhaps my successes were just helping me recall the lucids I was already having? Probably not but it's something to consider.

In any event, I would say this morning's results were tainted. Our son woke us multiple times all night so I am unsure of any effects the caffeine stack had. I was awoken 45min after dose with no recall and had slight insomnia for about 30min. I recall one really vivid dream around 5:19 but that was between alarms. This was the last of my caffeine pills so next time I will see if a more natural form of caffeine makes any difference. 

As far as the taurine... I am not sure if it helped anything or not. I'll it by itself and at a higher does some night soon. 

A choline supplement may be a good thing here too as it should give a higher percentage of chance to be dreaming when the caffeine peeks. It seems I may have been in nREM when I woke up after the initial dose (though I have continued sleeping if I had not been disturbed)

Now if I could ever get a solid night without being woken up a hundred times, I may be able to get this thing figured out.  :Pissed:

----------


## CanisLucidus

Night of March 23, 2013
*Dose:* 4 bags green tea
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 6 mg melatonin, 1 ice cream sandwich, 2g fish oil, WBTB: 4 bags green tea, 2400mg soy lecithin, 200mg L-theanine, 4g fish oil
*Bedtime:* 11:50PM
*WBTB wake time:* 3:00AM
*Dose Time:* 3:30AM
*Technique:* MILD
*Lucid:* Yes!   :boogie:   One full lucid dream + one micro-lucid.

The lucid dream:
The Hall of Letters - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Also, the micro-lucid:
"I'm in a house with ugly, dark green, 1970s-looking carpet.  I realize that I'm dreaming.  I get really excited and perform a diving roll across the house into the living room.  I feel really agile and badass.  I see an old projection TV, a leather couch, and further away a kitchen.  The dream destabilizes and I wake up too much to DEILD."

*Results*
This attempt was definitely a success.  I did wrestle with some insomnia, but this was due in part to some bad weather (which was not only noisy in its own right but also made the dogs act kind of weird.)

There were two important differences in this attempt vs. the last.  First, the addition of soy lecithin, with the goal of providing a source of choline.  This is a pretty new lucid aid for me, so over time I may cycle in other cholingergic aids to see whether there's any noticeable difference in my results.

The second difference was adding a bit of L-theanine.  This may have been significant given that this lucid dream was really a micro-lucid that I semi-chained into a new lucid dream.  It wasn't quite a DEILD in that I was hanging aware in the void rather than actually awake, but previously I found caffeine dreams to be a bit less stable than I needed.  The L-theanine may be helping there.  Xanous, since you also had some 

*Thoughts*
I like this idea of combining a) some form of cholingergic stimulation, b) a stabilizing aid like L-theanine, and c) caffeine as the adenosine antagonist.  This is very much the direction from which I think Yuschak was looking at things.

There was a study on the impact of caffeine on the sleep of rats that Yuschak cited which I found very interesting.  There was a level of caffeine at which a measurable change in type of sleep occurred without any increase in wakefulness.  Here's the quote from the abstract: "The 0.125 and 1.25 mg/kg doses of caffeine increased SWS1 at the expense of SWS2 (P less than or equal to 0.05), and did not affect total sleep time in any time period measured."  They also measured no impact on REM in this range.  If we scale this up to a human range like 165 pounds (~75 kilograms), you get something like 90-95 mg of caffeine as a ballpark figure.

Here's the study: The dose-response effects of caffeine on sleep in ... [Brain Res. 1987] - PubMed - NCBI

Interestingly, Yuschak's own tests seemed to suggest more frequent wakings with caffeine doses as low as 50 mg!  So we have lots more playing around to do.  However, if I'm estimating 30mg of caffeine per bag of green tea, I should be dropping back to 3 bags of tea to get closer to 90mg.  Two bags may even be closer to what gets best results.  It'll be fun exploring the whole range here over the coming weeks.

----------


## Xanous

> *Results*
> This attempt was definitely a success.  I did wrestle with some insomnia, but this was due in part to some bad weather (which was not only noisy in its own right but also made the dogs act kind of weird.)
> 
> There were two important differences in this attempt vs. the last.  First, the addition of soy lecithin, with the goal of providing a source of choline.  This is a pretty new lucid aid for me, so over time I may cycle in other cholingergic aids to see whether there's any noticeable difference in my results.
> 
> The second difference was adding a bit of L-theanine.  This may have been significant given that this lucid dream was really a micro-lucid that I semi-chained into a new lucid dream.  It wasn't quite a DEILD in that I was hanging aware in the void rather than actually awake, but previously I found caffeine dreams to be a bit less stable than I needed.  The L-theanine may be helping there.  Xanous, since you also had some



Cool. I'll definitely be trying this. I need to find _some_ use for all that L-Theanine I bought. I think cholingergic aids make a lot of sense too. I'll probably try DMAE when it arrives. However, I realize DMAE is an aid all on its own.






> *Thoughts*
> I like this idea of combining a) some form of cholingergic stimulation, b) a stabilizing aid like L-theanine, and c) caffeine as the adenosine antagonist.  This is very much the direction from which I think Yuschak was looking at things.
> 
> There was a study on the impact of caffeine on the sleep of rats that Yuschak cited which I found very interesting.  There was a level of caffeine at which a measurable change in type of sleep occurred without any increase in wakefulness.  Here's the quote from the abstract: "The 0.125 and 1.25 mg/kg doses of caffeine increased SWS1 at the expense of SWS2 (P less than or equal to 0.05), and did not affect total sleep time in any time period measured."  They also measured no impact on REM in this range.  If we scale this up to a human range like 165 pounds (~75 kilograms), you get something like 90-95 mg of caffeine as a ballpark figure.
> 
> Here's the study: The dose-response effects of caffeine on sleep in ... [Brain Res. 1987] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> Interestingly, Yuschak's own tests seemed to suggest more frequent wakings with caffeine doses as low as 50 mg!  So we have lots more playing around to do.  However, if I'm estimating 30mg of caffeine per bag of green tea, I should be dropping back to 3 bags of tea to get closer to 90mg.  Two bags may even be closer to what gets best results.  It'll be fun exploring the whole range here over the coming weeks.



Yes! I'll have to read that over when I get a chance. It guess if those figures are right then my 100MG dose is good... At least for me.

That's some good stuff. Thanks, CL!

----------


## CanisLucidus

> Cool. I'll definitely be trying this. I need to find _some_ use for all that L-Theanine I bought. I think cholingergic aids make a lot of sense too. I'll probably try DMAE when it arrives. However, I realize DMAE is an aid all on its own.



Cool, definitely beats letting the expiration date hit!  As I recall, you weren't much of a responder to L-theanine.  What's up with that, I wonder?   ::whyme::   Could valerian root be worth a try for you at some point?

DMAE has been puzzlingly effective for me so I'm looking forward to seeing what happens for you.   :smiley:   It's one of those aids that I didn't expect much out of and perplexed me when it actually worked.





> Yes! I'll have to read that over when I get a chance. It guess if those figures are right then my 100MG dose is good... At least for me.
> 
> That's some good stuff. Thanks, CL!



Yeah, it at least helps give some nice theoretical cover for what you're observing.  Of course, the experiments you conduct on yourself are of more practical value than the math I apply to rat trials run in the 1980s.   ::chuckle::   But it still helps formulate guidelines and ideas as to how this stuff is falling together.

I think that next time I'll use a similar combo, but with caffeine just slightly lowered.  May play with the lecithin dosage as well.  Fun fun.  Kids with chemistry sets.   ::happy::

----------


## Xanous

> Cool, definitely beats letting the expiration date hit! As I recall, you weren't much of a responder to L-theanine. What's up with that, I wonder? Could valerian root be worth a try for you at some point?



I've only used low doses 100-200mg and combined with Valerian Root. Maybe the 400mg range would be better.

----------


## Xanous

Night of March 28, 2013
*Dose*: 1/2 cup coffee
*Supporting Supplements*: Prebed: 10 mg melatonin, WBTB: 1000mg taurine, 100mg b6, 300mg L-theanine
*Bedtime*: 10:30PM
*WBTB wake time*: 3:30AM
*Dose Time*: 3:30AM
*Technique*: SSILD
*Lucid* : Close

I woke up at 4AM from a dream where I was in bed thinking how bummed I was that I didn't get a lucid. Had a vivid dream later and then another dream where I woke immediately after becoming lucid but I can't remember the dream. I can remember is being surprised and disappointed but a little relieved that whatever it was didn't really happen. I should note that I was extremely tired for my WBTB and snoozed 30min before actually getting up. I wonder if I would have better results being well rested or later in the morning.

----------


## CanisLucidus

Night of March 30, 2013
*Dose:* 3 bags green tea
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 6 mg melatonin, 2g fish oil, WBTB: 3 bags green tea, 4800mg soy lecithin, 450mg Valerian Root, 4g fish oil
*Bedtime:* 11:50PM
*WBTB wake time:* 5:00AM
*Dose Time:* 5:30AM
*Technique:* MILD
*Lucid:* No, but very close!

It should be noted that I had a horrible night's sleep.  The dogs woke up the household twice after bedtime so it was a pretty rough night.  Also, I could hear them clowning around downstairs during my WBTB, which spoiled my Zen a bit.   :tongue2: 

The end result was a pretty serious patch of insomnia.  Two possible factors here: my mildly irritable mood from being woken up so much or the replacement of L-theanine w/ Valerian Root.  I may stick with the Valerian Root next week to see how it goes, but I'll keep this in mind.  (BTW, that stuff smells kinda weird.)

Here was the most interesting dream, where I came really close to lucidity:

"I'm part of a squad of soldiers in some war of the future.  We're huddled in a group of bombed out buildings after some fearsome firefight.  One of the group is called out as a traitor and a coward by our leader, a grizzled, dark-haired guy in his 40s.  The leader shoots the traitor in the head.  I feel sick and horrified.

To set an example, the leader fires a grenade at the "traitor's" body, shattering it into a bloody mess.  Now I'm really upset.  I don't want for any of this to be happening.  I look away and look back and all of the gore has vanished.  The leader shouts at me: "What did you just do?"  I hold out my hands toward him.  He drops his rifle and slumps to the ground.

I feel like my dream powers have somehow come to me in real life.  I wonder whether this might be a dream but fresh fighting starts up outside of the building, distracting me.  I head out for battle with the rest of the squad."

Hopefully my sleep will be in better order next caffeine night!

----------


## Xanous

So close! I like action though. Really cool!

----------


## The Sandman

I happened upon this thread but didn't want to participate. I know effects from drugs can wear off, then you are at a new baseline. When you get off the drug, you just reach new lows; however, I drink green tea and coffee--usually coffee, hence, my post.

I had been drinking green tea, and recently switched to coffee. I didn't note exactly when, but it was relatively recently. It may have coincided with the beginning of my fiscal join date of DV which is important because at this time I also learned of SSILD...and THIS is important because since the beginning of this fiscal year, I've had a record 13 lucid dreams. That is a record for a 60 day period.

I believe I can attribute a few of those lucids to the SSILD method. I recently had a 3 successful nights out of four. The last night was after an overload of caffeine. I don't know what was the cause for this after being so successful as of late, but I don't remember ever being successful hopped up on caffeine. I had a terrible nights sleep. It wasn't long for the lucid portion, but here it is:

#57 Jump In the River - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Xanous

Thanks for the thoughts Sandman. It's easy to forget caffeine is a drug and should be treated like one. Im glad you mentioned that.

SSILD is an interesting technique that Ive had a lot of success with but eventually stopped working for me. I wonder how much my initial successes and then later failures we due to that fact.

Thanks for posting the dream. Did you have too much caffeine just before bed or was it earlier in the day?

----------


## The Sandman

Xanous,

I had a medium froofroo coffee from a gas station at 6:30 AM and another at 1:30 PM. I got to bed between 9:30 and 10:30. I woke up at 2:30 AM or so and didn't get back to sleep until 5 and change.

I hope SSILD doesn't stop working for me. It's the only method that I have really had luck with except DILD.

----------


## CanisLucidus

Night of April 6, 2013
*Dose:* 3 bags green tea
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 6 mg melatonin, 2g fish oil, WBTB: 3 bags green tea, 4800mg soy lecithin, 900mg Valerian Root, 4g fish oil
*Bedtime:* 11:50PM
*WBTB wake time:* ~5:00AM
*Dose Time:* ~5:30AM
*Technique:* MILD
*Lucid:* No

I didn't have a lucid dream with this one, but my recall after the WBTB was insane.  I got up and started walking around, giving no real effort to recalling these dreams but they stll held together fine throughout the morning.  It was a weekend and we had a really busy day out with the kids doing various activities, and I didn't get the chance to journal until the mid-afternoon.  Fortunately, my recall in the morning had been so vivid that I still got some good journal entries out of it.  Some fun dreams too!

Does anyone else find that they have strong recall when they use WBTB caffeine?

----------


## The Sandman

I had 3 cups of coffee yesterday. The last time I did this I posted here because I went lucid. Well, I went lucid again. Just like last time, I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't sleep for hours. I cycled (SSILD term), and later became lucid.

#58 - Free Style - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

There may be something to caffeine, but I'll only take it as it comes naturally. I don't want to try to become lucid by purposefully using caffeine.

----------


## CanisLucidus

Night of April 13, 2013
*Dose:* 3 bags green tea
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 6 mg melatonin, 2g fish oil, WBTB: 3 bags green tea, 4800mg soy lecithin, 450mg Valerian Root, 4g fish oil
*Bedtime:* 11:00PM
*WBTB wake time:* ~3:00AM
*Dose Time:* ~3:30AM
*Technique:* MILD
*Lucid:* Yes!

I went with just a little bit less Valerian Root this time and much better daytime awareness practices.  A couple of waking life issues had me slightly demotivated and distracted from practicing proper awareness techniques but I went at it a little harder yesterday, getting some payoff.

Here's the dream: Stephen LaBerge, Ghost Hunter - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Interestingly, recall was not nearly as good as the last time that I used caffeine.  The non-lucid portions of last night's LD contain some substantial memory gaps.  Fortunately, the lucid portion is pretty well preserved.

Since this was a success, I'll either leave things totally unchanged for the next trial OR consider dropping back on valerian root (to zero) or reducing caffeine to 2 tea bags.  I don't feel greatly motivated to make huge, huge changes, though.  I'm happy with this combination has been going.  Just have to make sure it's supporting proper awareness practices!

----------


## Xanous

OH the LaBerge one was caffeinated! Very cool!





> Does anyone else find that they have strong recall when they use WBTB caffeine?



Yes that's one of the great effects of caffeine even if you fail to get lucid.

Night of April 6, 2013
*Dose*: 1 bag green tea
*Supporting Supplements*: Prebed: 15MG Melatonin WBTB: ¼ cup mugwort (packed) 10-15min simmer prepared prebed.
*Bedtime*: 9:15PM
*WBTB wake time*: 2:40AM
*Dose Time*: 2:40AM
*Technique*: MILD/WILD
*Lucid*: YES
*Dream Comments*: Carjacking - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Xanous

Night of April 16, 2013
*Dose*: 1 bag green tea
*Supporting Supplements*: Prebed: 10MG Melatonin WBTB: ¼ cup mugwort (packed) 10-15min simmer prepared prebed.
*Bedtime*: 9:30PM
*WBTB wake time*: 2:30AM
*Dose Tim*e: 2:30AM - 3:00AM
*Technique:WILD failed. DILD/DEILD
Lucid*: YES
Dream Comments: Dream control seemed pretty easy. There was some wakefulness but I also felt pretty alert and rested when I woke for WBTB. I seemed to be deep in NREM when my son woke me. It was a dim awareness in the void almost like deep meditation. That was @ 3:30. The caffeine had kicked in at that point and I had to count myself down and sort of gave up on WILD. I had a brief DILD and had to DEILD back in. I think I lost lucidity briefly but recovered quick.

It seems to me that just a negligible amount of caffeine (25-30mg?) helps aid in mental alertness and recall when using mugwort.

----------


## Xanous

Success!

*Dose:* 3 bags green tea
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 15MG Melatonin WBTB: 300mg B6, 1000mg Taurine, 100mg L-Theanine.
*Bedtime:* 10:00PM
WBTB wake time: 3:30AM - 4:00AM
*Technique:* Started with SSILD but was too wakeful. counting WILD to DEILD chain - OBE
*Side Effects:* High Insomnia - Nausea
*Lucid:* YES!
*Comments:* A fun dream but really unstable. The insomnia was ridiculous from the get go but I managed. I had some nausea and I wonder if the B6 dose was too high. The most I have taken was 400mg but had no nausea. Perhaps it was something else?

A Robot In The Dark - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Xanous

*Dose:* 2 bags black tea
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 5MG Melatonin, 3G Fish Oil WBTB: 200mg B6, 1000mg Taurine, 100mg L-Theanine, 100MG DMAE
*Bedtime:* 10:30PM
*WBTB wake time:* 3:00AM - 3:15AM
*Technique:* MILD/SSILD - Really I failed to do either as I passed out right away.
*Side Effects:* None
*Lucid:* No
*Comments:*  I totally blew it on this one. I was way to tire and WBTB was way too short. I fell asleep before I could decide if I wanted to try SSILD or MILD. I vaguely remember some vivid dreams but failed to DJ anything. I recall some fragments after awakening.

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* 3 bags green tea
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 6g soy lecithin, 250mg DMAE, WBTB: 250mg DMAE
*Bedtime:* 11:30PM
*WBTB wake time:* ~5:00AM
*Dose Time:* ~5:00AM
*Technique:* MILD
*Lucid:* No

Unfortunately, I gave myself insomnia on this trial!  There were a couple of easily identifiable sources of trouble.  First, I got up way too late for the WBTB.  After staying up for WBTB, it's late enough that you get the occasional truck passing, light starting to slowly filter in, approaching normal weekday wake-up time, etc.

Also, the combination of DMAE and caffeine is very stimulating, so I may do some combination of reducing my caffeine to 2 bags of green tea and perhaps throwing in some L-theanine to settle myself just a bit.  I'm still working out exactly what approach I'll use there.

Still, I think that the biggest factor was just staying up too late then waking up too late for the WBTB.  Targeting more like 3:00 AM or so just works so much better for defeating insomnia.  By 5:30 AM, my body kinda realizes that I'm close to my usual wake-up time.

----------


## Xanous

> Also, the combination of DMAE and caffeine is very stimulating,



That would be a very good thing in my case. I may try upping DMAE next time and move the taurine to prebed.

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* 3 bags green tea
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 100mg 5-HTP, 5g fish oil, WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 300mg Alpha-GPC, 200mg L-theanine, 3 bags peppermint tea, 1 bag green tea
*Bedtime:* 10:30PM
*WBTB wake time:* ~2:45AM
*Dose Time:* ~2:45AM
*Technique:* WILD
*Lucid:* Yes!!

This LD was *awesome*, definitely one of the coolest, if not _the_ coolest of my life.  It was long, rich, and generally very stable.  It broke violently apart at the very end, but it had been going for 25-30 minutes by then.  That makes it one of my longer LDs of all time.

The lucid dream: The Night of the Weredog - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

Including caffeine on galantamine night is very, very intentional.  I'm sure I've linked it before, but Yuschak did a cool trial that incorporated caffeine as a support supplement for G: http://lucidconsciousness.com/wp-con...cid-Dreams.pdf  He cited a study from 2006 called "Effects of caffeine are more marked on daytime recovery sleep than on nocturnal sleep."

The study has its pubmed entry here and even cooler, the Nature Publishing Group has made full text of the study available for free online: Neuropsychopharmacology - Effects of Caffeine are more Marked on Daytime Recovery Sleep than on Nocturnal Sleep

The general idea is that just the right amount of caffeine (and the amount must be small) can suppress deep sleep without making it exceedingly hard to fall asleep.  This should specifically make WILDs much easier.  It worked well for Yuschak.  As for me?  This trial was a huge success.  One data point isn't much, but considering how great this LD was, I'll be trying it a lot more!

----------


## Xanous

I love it! I'll be adding some green tea friday night/saturday morning!

----------


## Xanous

May 2, 2013
*Dose:* The original recipe... A few gulps of strong coffee. Which consists of half a scoop in hot water and let sit until WBTB time. I know the method is crude but it seems to give me better results.
*Supporting Supplements:* _Prebed_: 3g fish oil, Imperial Stout  ::D:  _WBTB_: 100mg B6
*Bedtime:* 10:00PM
*Dose Time:* 3:30AM - Brief WBTB
*Technique:* Totally forgot to induce... DILD?
*Lucid:* Yes!!

I had a sort of in-dream DEILDy WILDy type of thing going. In the dream I thought I was going on a lucid streak and assumed I did one of the basic TOTM for May but I have no real memory of it. The dream was a little unstable and short but that seems typical for using caffeine as the only trigger. 

An Unpredictable Summons - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* 1 bag green tea
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 100mg 5-HTP, 5g fish oil, WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 300mg Alpha-GPC, 200mg L-theanine, 3 bags peppermint tea
*Bedtime:* 11:30PM
*WBTB wake time:* ~3:00AM
*Dose Time:* ~3:00AM
*Technique:* WILD
*Lucid:* Yes, multiple but shallow (2 WILD, 4 DEILD)

This was a success in terms of getting lucid, but sleep was very light and I awoke frequently.  It was pretty hard to stay under.  One big factor is that one of my dogs had a freakout and I had to run downstairs to get her under control before she woke up the kids.  That got my heart rate up before WBTB, so that may have been a little too much stimulation.  I may simply repeat this dose, but hopefully under better circumstances.

Again, WILD came very naturally with this supplement combo, so I see no reason not to repeat it!  Caffine + cholinergic stimulation for lucidity and menthol for dream enhancement has so far made for a very nice combo.  I'm not yet compelled to change much of anything.

The full DJ entry: DEILDs and Demigods - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Xanous

Dose: 1 bag green tea
Supporting Supplements: Prebed: 100mg B6, 1mg melatonin, 3g fish oil WBTB: 8mg galantamine, 250mg choline, 200mg DMAE
Bedtime: 10:30PM
WBTB wake time: 3:00AM -  3:15AM
Dose Time: ~3:00AM
Technique: WILD
Lucid: Yes

Comments:  I don't know if it was the DMAE or the green tea or both but my transition states went so smooth that I fell victim to false awakenings several times. I had a very nice and stable WILD and was able to DILD during my FAs in the first hour. The only draw back is that I ended up with insomnia for a little longer then an hour. This is my first combo with G and caffeine and I'm not sure I like it. I found it very difficult to get lucid again when normally I can jump right back in after the first hour awakening. I did have sever vivid dreams with excellent recall. Pulled off a mild brief lucid but never took control. Then, at 7 the alarm clock went off and I went for DEILD got vibrations then lost awareness. Luckily, I was able pull off a really nice DILD and woke just before the next snooze alarm. 

I think next time Ill leave out the green tea and just see how much of this smoothness is contributed to DMAE. 

I haven't finished posting my dreams but I'll post links later and fix all my typos later since I'm on my phone in church right now.   ::lol::

----------


## Xanous

*Dose:* 2 Stok Black Coffee Shots (80MG Caffiene)
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 100mg B6, 5mg melatonin, 3g fish oil WBTB: 100MG B6
*Bedtime:* 10:00PM
*WBTB wake time:* 3:30 - 3:40
*Dose Time:* ~3:30AM
*Technique:* MILD
*Lucid:* Semi

I had very vivid dreams and one dream were I seemed to know it was a dream but didn't fully catch on enough I was talking about lucidity and dreams with DV members. Still calling this one a success. Unfortunately I got insomnia for about an hour before falling back to sleep.

----------


## Xanous

Another success with caffeine menthol and l-dopa.

http://www.dreamviews.com/research/1...ml#post2020780

----------


## Xanous

*Dose*: 2 Stok Black Coffee Shots (80MG Caffiene)
*Supporting Supplements*: Prebed: nothing WBTB: 100MG B6, 1000MG Taurine
*Bedtime*: 11:00PM
*WBTB time*: 4:30-4:40
*Dose Time*: 4:30AM
*Technique*: WILD OBE
*Lucid*: No

I blew this one. I was in the void for quite a while before I realized it. I started rolling and everything went well until I tried to exit my physical body. When I lifted my head up I actually moved waking myself up. I was a thrown by the lack of vibration and waited too long to try to exit.

----------


## NyxCC

Thought these will make a nice addition to the research:

*Date*: 4 June
*Dose*: 1/2 frappuccino bottle (40 mg caffeine)
*Supporting supps*: none
*WBTB/Dose time*: +5 hrs after sleep
*Technique*: mantra, intending ( I guess that's like a form of MILD?)
*Lucid*: yes
*Comments*: Two DILDs at end of REM, very good concentration and ability to remember tasks

*Date*: 5 June
*Dose*: 1/2 frappuccino bottle (40 mg caffeine)
*Supporting supps*: pre bed strong multivits
*Dose time*: did not pay attention, fell quickly asleep
*Technique*: none
*Lucid*: no
*Comments*: I was very sleepy and tired this night so no techniques used, dreams were of average vividness to slightly enhanced vividness, but recall was a bit hard. Missed a few dream signs, a base on the moon, and a very interesting store.  :tongue2:

----------


## Xanous

I'm guessing the frap has sugar and milk... I know milk does stuff and I've read some old threads speculating about sugar. I wonder how much effect it had. Very interesting.

----------


## NyxCC

Yes, it has milk and I think lots of sugar. With my recent sleepiness I need an extra boost mornings so you will be hearing more of either successful Lds or insomnia soon.  :tongue2:

----------


## Ctharlhie

> *Dose*: 2 Stok Black Coffee Shots (80MG Caffiene)
> *Supporting Supplements*: Prebed: nothing WBTB: 100MG B6, 1000MG Taurine
> *Bedtime*: 11:00PM
> *WBTB time*: 4:30-4:40
> *Dose Time*: 4:30AM
> *Technique*: WILD OBE
> *Lucid*: No
> 
> I blew this one. I was in the void for quite a while before I realized it. I started rolling and everything went well until I tried to exit my physical body. When I lifted my head up I actually moved waking myself up. I was a thrown by the lack of vibration and waited too long to try to exit.



Sometimes the transition can be so subtle. I suspect you were dreaming before you even tried to exit.

----------


## NyxCC

*Date*: 8 June
*Dose*: 1 chilled latte (103.4 mg) 
*Supporting supps*: 200mg val pre bed
*WBTB/Dose time*: +4 hrs after sleep
*Technique*: MILD& SSILD - I had to be sure I'd get a lucid 
*Lucid*: yes  ::D: 
*Comments*: I was extremely sleepy, and even thought to skip WBTB, but had the coffee and did the techs. It totally helped my awareness emerge from unconscious sleep. I was sleeping so heavily, when I woke up initially I couldn't recall anything even after the WBTB. Managed to recall part of the DILD and some dream fragments. 

(Un)forgettable meeting

----------


## NyxCC

After having success with the frap and latte I decided to caffeinate myself during WBTB day after day. Got lucid, and also on the very last day got in trouble.  

*Date*: 11 June
*Dose*: 1 chilled latte (103.4 mg) 
*Supporting supps*: pre bed multivs, l-arginine (500mg)
*WBTB/Dose time*: +6 hrs after sleep (TST* = 6 1/2hrs)
*Technique*: MILD& SSILD 
*Lucid*: yes  
*Comments*: missed my ideal natural wake slot, but decided to WBTB nevertheless. Got an extra half an hour of sleep and a slightly confusing WILD. I managed to recall 5 tasks during the ld, although couldn’t do much as I got one of my dream paralysis events.
*TST – total sleep time

Hold on to the bottle

*Date*: 12 June
*Dose*: ½ Red Bull (around 53 mg caffeine) 
*Supporting supps*: pre bed 120 mg Gingko
*WBTB/Dose time*: +6 hrs after sleep (TST 7 hrs)
*Technique*: fell asleep during mantra-style MILD
*Lucid*: yes 
*Comments*: This was a very nice DEILD chain and not something I have experienced before. Recall of tasks related more or less to long term ones. Managed to stabilize relatively well simply by engaging in dream, walked quite a distance in DEILD3&4. The event surprised me a lot, I thought that the combo of sugar, B-vitamins and caffeine combined helped me to obtain these results.

Sing along DEILD chain

*Date*: 13 June
*Dose*: ½ Red Bull (around 53 mg caffeine) 
*Supporting supps*: pre bed 120 mg Gingko
*WBTB/Dose time*: +4 hrs after sleep (slept 3 1/2hrs pre WBTB and and ½ post = 4hrs) (guest-related & insomnia)
*Technique*: SSILD 
*Lucid*: yes 
*Comments*: After the previous day’s experience I decided to repeat the experiment. While I had a similar type of  DEILD chain it was not nice. I concluded I chose the wrong day for this (home distractions) and I got what I deserved – a nasty FA chain followed by DEILD chain and heavy _insomnia_. Dream control was not at its best.

FA/DEILD chain

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* 1 bag green tea (WBTB)
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 100mg 5-HTP; WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 600mg Alpha-GPC, 3 bags peppermint tea
*Bedtime:* 11:15PM
*WBTB wake time:* ~3:00AM
*Dose Time:* ~3:00AM
*Technique:* WILD / SSILD / DILD
*Lucid:* Yes!  5 lucids!!

It had been a while since I'd had the chance to try galantamine + choline + caffeine + menthol, and I was reminded why it's my all-time favorite supplement combo.  I had easily the highest number of lucid dreams of my life with this one.

The caffeine seems to be great at making it way easier to cross the gap with more of your awareness intact.  Suppressing deep sleep, I think, has a lot of positive effects that help you either WILD or realize that you're dreaming.  What was interesting with this session was that while there were 2 WILDs, there were also multiple DILDs (one via SSILD, I believe, the others spontaneous.)

It's speculative, but this would seem to indicate that caffeine does a lot more than just help with WILDs.  Minimizing deep sleep and acting as an adenosine antagonist may be helping the waking consciousness stay just that little bit more active so that it's more easily aroused once dream situations become strange enough.

It also seemed like the higher dose of GPC may have let me cruise for a little bit longer than previous attempts.

The lucids:
The Terminator Locker - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Menthol and Marriage, the Sequel - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
The Torrent - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Metroid - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
The Substitute - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Darkmatters

Wow!!! Congratulations!! An amazing night. 

I'm interested - when do you drink the green tea? Before bed? Or for WBTB?

Nvrmnd - I saw on the Menthol thread it was pre-bed - that's what I figured. Need to give this a shot. (though Im surprised the peppermint teas was also pre-bed - never tried it that way).

----------


## CanisLucidus

> Wow!!! Congratulations!! An amazing night. 
> 
> I'm interested - when do you drink the green tea? Before bed? Or for WBTB?
> 
> Nvrmnd - I saw on the Menthol thread it was pre-bed - that's what I figured. Need to give this a shot. (though Im surprised the peppermint teas was also pre-bed - never tried it that way).



Thanks, Darkmatters!  I did both the peppermint tea and green tea *at WBTB*.  The only aid that I used pre-bed was 5-HTP.  I should clean up my formatting a bit to make that more obvious!

----------


## Highlander

*Date*: 20th June 2013
*Dose*: Pro Plus x1 tablet (50 mg Caffeine @ WBTB)
*Supporting supps*: Apple Juice (0.5 pt @ WBTB)
*WBTB/Dose time*: +6 hrs after sleep 
*Technique*: Not applicable – WBTB & regimen (method)
*Lucid*: No (See comments)
*Comments*: Insomnia post-WBTB. (I did feel some odd inertia effect(s) post-WBTB whilst on my back initially.)
Good amount of short dreams (inc. dreamlets) noted and recorded. 
Slight awareness in main dream.
Total sleep time between the 10 hour period (excluding 20 min WBTB) was roughly between 8 to 8.5 hrs approx.
The last hour or so I did feel quite tired which helped with relaxation and overall dreaming.

Caffeine and Apple Juice, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## NyxCC

Highlander, happy to see you join the caffeine thread.  :smiley: 

A bit late with updates this week, here we go:

It was very hard to stop caffeinating after such impressive results, so on 15th I gave it another shot.
*Date*: 15 June
*Dose*: 1/2 chilled latte (52mg caffeine) 
*Supporting supps*: WBTB lecithin (500mg) & B-complex
*WBTB/Dose time*: +5 hrs after sleep (TST* = 6 hrs)
*Technique*: matras 
*Lucid*: yes but couldn’t make much of it 
*Comments*: A poor quality very short WILD, couldn’t stabilize, and then had some trouble falling asleep

Mute micro-WILD

Then decided to combine my fav caffeine and SJW, but didn’t get lucid on this occasion. Sleep was good nevertheless.

*Date*: 17 June
*Dose*: 1/2 chilled latte (52mg caffeine) 
*Supporting supps*: pre bed SJW, WBTB: 2x200mg peppermint oil capsules
*WBTB/Dose time*: +6 hrs after sleep (TST* = 9 hrs)
*Technique*: fell asleep during matras 
*Lucid*: no
*Comments*: The SJW and menthol still resulted in vivid dreams, but I was too sleepy to take advantage of the enhanced dream quality. I want to give this combo another try, hopefully will pick up a better day to do it.

16-19 June Summary

EDIT:





> The caffeine seems to be great at making it way easier to cross the gap with more of your awareness intact.  Suppressing deep sleep, I think, has a lot of positive effects that help you either WILD or realize that you're dreaming.  What was interesting with this session was that while there were 2 WILDs, there were also multiple DILDs (one via SSILD, I believe, the others spontaneous.)
> 
> It's speculative, but this would seem to indicate that caffeine does a lot more than just help with WILDs.  Minimizing deep sleep and acting as an adenosine antagonist may be helping the waking consciousness stay just that little bit more active so that it's more easily aroused once dream situations become strange enough.



Yeah, I agree with that. It makes a lot of sense and this research thread goes to add more proof in that direction.

----------


## Xanous

Welcome aboard Hilander! Glad you're giving it a shot. 

Wow NyxCC you've really been cranking this out. I'm going to have to try some redbull or Starbucks really soon. I didn't want to do that initially but I see the value in the added supplements and sugars ect. 

Great stuff guys. I love it. I promise to put in some actual research soon.

----------


## Highlander

*Date*: 21st June 2013
*Dose*: Pro Plus x1 tablet (50 mg Caffeine @ WBTB)
*Supporting supps*: Zinc (x1 10 mg @ Bed) Banana (x1 @ WBTB)
*WBTB/Dose time*: +4.5 hrs after bed 
*Technique*: Not applicable – WBTB & regimen (method)
*Lucid*: No 
*Comments*: Slight insomnia post-Bed and post-WBTB. Headache Inb4.
Total sleep time between the 10.5 hour period (excluding 30 min WBTB) was roughly between 8.25 to 8.5 hrs approx.
I did have a bit of a bad headache pre-Bed, etc. which didn’t help much.
My recall was ok considering. I mainly noted down short sentences/keywords as I felt a bit groggy/lazy later on.

DV building. College, BSR, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views


@ NyxCC, @ Xanous - Thanks guys!  :smiley:

----------


## GrannyPigms

I gave this a shot, and got some. Err, interesting results to say the least. 

*Dose:* 1 small coke, about 34 mg
*Bedtime:* Around 9 o' clock.
*Dose time:* Around 8 o' clock.
*Technique:* DILD
*Supporting Supplements:* 1 cup apple juice [10 minutes before falling asleep]

And I got this: I don't even know anymore... - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

It was amazing, and weird, and I don't even know. But I have my assumptions that it was because of the caffeine. It got 10/10 vividness, it felt like real life without any question. It was one of my longer dreams, and it was a dream inside of a dream.  ::?: 

Definitely trying this again tonight, see if I get any better results.

----------


## Xanous

Thanks for joining in. Looks like you did the caffeine at the beginning of sleep. Is that right? Maybe you hit lucidity during nREM which would explain the craziness.

----------


## GrannyPigms

Well, yeah, I used it near the beginning. I thought it would be best that way, so that I don't miss completely and it have a negative effect.

----------


## GrannyPigms

Ok, second testing night.

*Dose:* 1 small coke (~34 mg)
*Bedtime:* Around 10:00
*Technique:* DILD
*Dose time:* Around 8:00
*Supporting Supplements:* Popcorn (movie night, what can I say?)

I went to bed extremely tired (which may have disturbed something?) and got nothing. The caffeine didn't help. Now this may just be a problem with me going to a movie, or going to bed too late, or just my simply not so good dream recall.

Sweet dreams.  :SleepMeditate2:

----------


## Xanous

Just a suggestion: I think you will have much better results if you try it with a brief WBTB after 4-6 hours sleep; just long enough to drink it and lay back down with a quick induction technique. The prebed doses are interesting, though.

----------


## GrannyPigms

Yeah, I think I might try that tonight.  :wink2:

----------


## CanisLucidus

Note: This is from morning of 6/20/2013

*Dose:* 1 bag green tea (WBTB)
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 100mg 5-HTP; WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 600mg Alpha-GPC, 3 bags peppermint tea
*Bedtime:* 11:00PM
*WBTB wake time:* ~3:00AM
*Dose Time:* ~3:00AM
*Technique:* SSILD / WILD
*Lucid:* Yes.  One lucid dream and one micro-lucid.

The lucid dream:
Vanity at The Doppelganger Water Park - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Xanous

*Dose*: 8.5oz Redbull (80mg caffeine)
*Supporting Supplements*: Vitamin additives. 
*Bedtime*: 11:00PM
*WBTB/dose time*: 3:30AM (Brief)
*Technique*: Mantra SSILD
*Lucid*: Yes (sort of)

During the first hour I remember becoming lucid twice ( more like remembering that I was trying to get lucid). It seemed like heavy HI and random thoughts when I came to and I woke up immediately. I experience just a little wakefulness and had a very vivid and interesting NLD during the second hour. The dream involved buying live seafood with CanisLucidus on the company card. The elderly and confused cashier tried to ring me up on a laptop but had no idea how it all worked.  ::lol:: 

Live Seafood NLD - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## NyxCC

*Date*: 22 June
*Dose*: 1/2 latte (52 mg caffeine)
*Supporting supps*: pre bed: 120 mg Gingko, 500 mg l-arginine
*WBTB/Dose time*: +5 hrs after sleep
*TST*: 6 hrs
*Technique*: mantras, SSILD, WILD
*Lucid*: yes
*Comments*: I was quite dehydrated from dinner and spent too much time drinking water then visiting the restroom, which amplified my insomnia. On the other hand after finally falling asleep I got some lds that I patched up into a more coherent dream thanks to all the advice. 

Ld Patchwork

*Date*: 25 June
*Dose*: 6/10 of frap bottle (60 mg caffeine)
*Supporting supps*: pre bed SJW, 2 drops p.oil, WBTB 200mg p.oil capsule
*WBTB/Dose time*:  +5 hrs after sleep 
*TST*: 8 hrs
*Technique*: fell asleep during mantra, so almost none
*Lucid*: about 3 hrs later 
*Comments*: You can say I almost missed this one as I was really sleepy. The ld I got was more a product of me being close to final wake time than result of caffeine? Dreams were vivid and sleep was nice post SJW and menthol and obviously no insomnia this time.

Obsessed with TOTM

----------


## GrannyPigms

Yet another test with coke, this time with a WBTB as y'all suggested.

*Dose:* 1 small coke (~36 mg)
*Bedtime:* Around 11:00
*Dose time:* Drank it in two parts, once at around 10:00, finished it at around 10:55
*WBTB time:* 3:46 (I know, it took me 6 minutes to get up)
*Supporting supplements:* None

And I got...
Around 3 small fragments. My best one being this:
Vague memory - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

The other one had something to do with superman (What?), and the other one had something to do with iced tea.

I'm not sure if this is just my bad dream recall because I'm new to this, or what. But things are not looking good on my end.  ::disconcerted::

----------


## NyxCC

*Date*: 28 June
*Dose*: some Red bull (50 mg caffeine)
*Supporting supps*: multivits
*WBTB/Dose time*: +6 hrs after sleep
*TST*: 8 hrs
*Technique*: not really
*Lucid*: no
*Comments*: Bizarre but interesting vivid dreams, unfortunately too sleepy to do a proper WBTB induction

Field of the ancients NLD

*Date*: 30 June
*Dose*: 6/10 of latte (60 mg caffeine)
*Supporting supps*: pre bed 3mg mel
*WBTB/Dose time*: +5 1/2 hrs after sleep 
*TST*: 6 1/2 hrs
*Technique*: 2 SSILD cycles, lots of rolling over to WILD
*Lucid*: yes
*Comments*: Even though it was not pleasant with an hour and half of insomnia this helps me to a lucid. Those from scratch lds are still a challenge due to instability and too much caffeine wakefulness, but this one was quite long and extremely vivid. The second time I have a mute ld.

Multiverse mute

*Date*: 02 July
*Dose*: 6/10 of latte (60 mg caffeine)
*Supporting supps*: pre bed SJW, 100mg B6, WBTB 200mg p.oil capsule
*WBTB/Dose time*: +6 hrs after sleep 
*TST*: 8 hrs
*Technique*: quickly fell asleep after starting mantra, so none
*Lucid*: kind of  
*Comments*: I am noticing that SJW is making me very sleepy in the last three trials (once a week). I love the sleep I get with SJW plus menthol as it is nice mood and very restorative. However, I am sleeping so deeply it is very hard to ld. On this occasion had an early LD (+2 hrs after bed) but apart from the overexcitement and a brief scene, there is very little I remember. Couldn’t remember dreams in much detail after the latte WBTB either. Had a strange void to OBE/FA whatever thing just before final wake, but couldn’t do much there. I need to extend my WBTB time out of bed by a few more mins and possible stay away from deep sleep supps?

Sleepy

----------


## Xanous

*Date:* July 3rd
*Dose:* 1 bag green tea
*Supporting Supplements:* 120mg Mucana Puriens, 400mg L-Glutamine, Peppermint tea
*WBTB/dose time:* 3:30AM - 4:00AM
*Technique:* MILD
*Lucid:* I don't even know
*Comments:* Crazy intensely vivid FAs and dream control. False memory about being lucid. On the verge of lucidity the entire time. (Micro lucids)

Flying Platform - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* 1 bag green tea (WBTB)
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 100mg 5-HTP; WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 600mg Alpha-GPC, 3 bags peppermint tea
*Bedtime:* 11:00PM
*WBTB wake time:* ~2:15AM
*Dose Time:* ~2:15AM
*Technique:* MILD (failed on WILD)
*Lucid:* Yes.

I hit a great LD with this combo, even though I just _barely_ made it.  I tried to WILD after a 30-35 minute WBTB and was getting some really promising HI -- geometric shapes, lots of movement, some faces.  Very active stuff and I was sure I had it.  But I wound up just falling asleep within a couple of minutes!   :Oops:   I finally woke up a couple of hours after my WBTB and while I'd had some nice, vivid dreams, hadn't hit a lucid yet.

I wonder if this means I should experiment with slightly raising my caffeine -- maybe 2 bags of green tea next time?  See if I can make that work?

One factor is that I did a very early WBTB.  For whatever reason, this is just when I naturally woke up.  It's sort of hard to predict since I rely purely on natural awakenings.

Anyhow, I'll have to ponder this more.  Appreciate any thoughts you all might have.  All's well that ends well!   ::goodjob2:: 

The lucid dream:
Woodrow the Giant - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## NyxCC

I totally understand you! I have been using natural wakes for several reasons and it's just really hard to hit the optimal time for WBTB. Recently, I have been waking up too late so I either call off the entire thing or end up...with insomnia and lose so much sleep.  ::shock:: 

It's great you made it despite all the sleepiness.  ::D:

----------


## Xanous

> I wonder if this means I should experiment with slightly raising my caffeine -- maybe 2 bags of green tea next time?  See if I can make that work?
> 
> One factor is that I did a very early WBTB.  For whatever reason, this is just when I naturally woke up.  It's sort of hard to predict since I rely purely on natural awakenings.



Raising the caffeine levels slightly might help but I would hate for you to suffer insomnia on a G night. However, I do find that if I wake after an hour of ingesting caffeine, I am not usually awake more than an hour. So It seems, for me anyway, that there is an hour window for the caffeine to kick in and hopefully get lucid then an hour wait to try and pull off a WILD.

As you know, I use an alarm but the few times I have had a natural WBTB have been the most pleasant so I understand going with the early one. But, I have found that the longer I wait for WBTB the better results I have. 5 hours seem better than 4 hours (I think I even did a 6hour wait before) but there is always the problem of my son waking me up too early or having to get up at certain time for work. That's also why I use the alarm but that's not always fool proof. Like last night I was too tired so I thought I hit the snooze but I woke naturally 30min later.  ::D:  I'm looking forward to see how you wake naturally in the podcast by the way!

----------


## CanisLucidus

> I totally understand you! I have been using natural wakes for several reasons and it's just really hard to hit the optimal time for WBTB. Recently, I have been waking up too late so I either call off the entire thing or end up...with insomnia and lose so much sleep.



Glad to not be alone.   :smiley:   What have you found to be too late in your experience?  For me it seems to relate more to how close to morning, daylight, and activity outside rather than strictly about the number hours of sleep.  If there's any trace of daylight or cars going by, I seem to generally be doomed.





> Raising the caffeine levels slightly might help but I would hate for you to suffer insomnia on a G night. However, I do find that if I wake after an hour of ingesting caffeine, I am not usually awake more than an hour. So It seems, for me anyway, that there is an hour window for the caffeine to kick in and hopefully get lucid then an hour wait to try and pull off a WILD.
> 
> As you know, I use an alarm but the few times I have had a natural WBTB have been the most pleasant so I understand going with the early one. But, I have found that the longer I wait for WBTB the better results I have. 5 hours seem better than 4 hours (I think I even did a 6hour wait before) but there is always the problem of my son waking me up too early or having to get up at certain time for work. That's also why I use the alarm but that's not always fool proof. Like last night I was too tired so I thought I hit the snooze but I woke naturally 30min later.  I'm looking forward to see how you wake naturally in the podcast by the way!



Yeah, I know what you mean about taking that extra risk on G night.  G  is great for reducing the amount of latency between settling down for sleep and the dreams starting.  Caffeine helps with keeping the mind active long enough to help cross the gap.  But it's so easy to take it too far!  I mean, I did still hit a DILD in the end, but I really like hitting WILDs with G since WILDs are not my usual way of getting lucid.

Thanks, I think you're right about the later WBTBs.  I'd say the later the better so long as there's no insomnia.  I had a pretty late WBTB last night.  I was really nervous about insomnia so I cut it to about 15 minutes.  I fell asleep really quickly and even though I didn't hit a lucid, I had some close calls and recalled 8 dreams, which is just a huge number for me.  I'm going to experiment with timing my natural WBTB simply because it's so darn useful and as research for mahoogie's question!

----------


## NyxCC

> Glad to not be alone.   What have you found to be too late in your experience? For me it seems to relate more to how close to morning, daylight, and activity outside rather than strictly about the number hours of sleep. If there's any trace of daylight or cars going by, I seem to generally be doomed.



I guess it all depends on how sleepy you are during a specific night. My WBTB range is between 4 and 6 hrs after sleep. I prefer it to be 4.5-5 ideally but with no alarm it is hard to hit it. And unfortunately _every_ night is different. Light is somewhat irritating especially in summer but I sleep with a folded T-shirt on my head, so it blocks light just in case. Now sounds can be very distracting, no matter what time it is there is always some noise. Unfortunately there's very little one can do about it, if it's a bad time to ld, it is a bad time.

In the last few days I have been working on developing a viable schedule to LD, but it seems the more I try to control things, the worse it gets. It has been like deep sleep, deep sleep, insomnia, insomnia and recall has been getting worse too. Hahaha! I guess I should take it easy? This always happens when I want to ld very bad. 

Anyways, I think about caffeine you should always refer to your own sleepyness levels and WBTB timing, and also how prone you are to insomnia. It's so tricky, something you really need a few extra mg of caffeine, but at other times, it proves too much. There is one thing I want to try by the way, to see if it helps me wake up a bit more, splash some cold water on my face during WBTB instead of caffeine. I know it sounds funny but it might do the trick. :tongue2: 

Wow!Congrats on the great recall. Getting _anything_ out of dreamworld is always a bonus.  :smiley:

----------


## CanisLucidus

> Anyways, I think about caffeine you should always refer to your own sleepyness levels and WBTB timing, and also how prone you are to insomnia. It's so tricky, something you really need a few extra mg of caffeine, but at other times, it proves too much. There is one thing I want to try by the way, to see if it helps me wake up a bit more, splash some cold water on my face during WBTB instead of caffeine. I know it sounds funny but it might do the trick.



Great thoughts all the way around.  I know what you mean about just a few extra mg of caffeine... I sometimes wish there was a little keyboard I could type a really precise number into and have it brew perfectly-caffeinated tea for me right there at WBTB.  But I brew my tea the night before out of bags whose caffeine contents are, honestly, probably inconsistent and really hard to gauge accurately.  I sometimes desire an unreasonable degree of precision.   :smiley: 

You'll have to let me know how the cold water splash goes!  One thing I can tell you doesn't work for me is anything which elevates the heartrate.  Going up and down stairs to deal with nonsense from the dogs or reading something that gets me all excited and pumped up seem to be my personal pathway to insomnia.   :smiley:

----------


## Highlander

> ...There is one thing I want to try by the way, to see if it helps me wake up a bit more, splash some cold water on my face during WBTB instead of caffeine. I know it sounds funny but it might do the trick.







> You'll have to let me know how the cold water splash goes!  One thing I can tell you doesn't work for me is anything which elevates the heartrate.  Going up and down stairs to deal with nonsense from the dogs or reading something that gets me all excited and pumped up seem to be my personal pathway to insomnia.



Re: The splashing of cold water on the face - I have tried this during WBTB basically to try and DROP the heartrate, by trying to activate the Mamillian Diving Reflex.
Note that the water does have to be below a certain temperature, plus it depends on the length of contact, and/or immersion, etc.
Mammalian diving reflex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However don't feel like I'm totally disagreeing with you guys, as I agree that splashing cold water on your boat race is bound to make you more (mentally) alert!

----------


## NyxCC

> Re: The splashing of cold water on the face - I have tried this during WBTB basically to try and DROP the heartrate, by trying to activate the Mamillian Diving Reflex.
> Note that the water does have to be below a certain temperature, plus it depends on the length of contact, and/or immersion, etc.
> Mammalian diving reflex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> However don't feel like I'm totally disagreeing with you guys, as I agree that splashing cold water on your boat race is bound to make you more (mentally) alert!



You are not contradicting at all, rather providing complementary info. One thing I have noticed is that when it is very warm in the room it is hard to sleep. But why? Well if I measure blood pressure and heart rate on a very warm day than I see that my blood pressure drops as blood vessels expand, at the same time heart rate increases as to provide the necessary flow of nutrients to organs. The opposite happens with cold weather and showers. Vessels come closer together so pressure increases, breathing becomes deeper. (I guess heart should slow down respectively, maybe I should take some cold showers and measure?) It is interesting that according to your link _even_ simply submerging the face triggers a similar effect.

So this might not be a bad thing to try especially during summer and it certainly will increase alertness and hopefully without suppressing NREM/REM like my caffeine doses. Right now I am speculating about it helping me, but soon will see how that works. If it is effective it might help me space out caffeine or just reduce the amount of caffeine during WBTB.

----------


## CanisLucidus

> However don't feel like I'm totally disagreeing with you guys, as I agree that splashing cold water on your boat race is bound to make you more (mentally) alert!



Awesome info... I can't even find a point of disagreement!  This makes the cold water technique even more exciting!  Because if it makes you more mentally alert (which I think we generally agree that it at least _seems_ to do) and it also drops the heart rate, it sounds like a winner!  Because an alert mind and a slightly slower heart rate sounds like exactly what you would want to have heading into lucid dream time.  Particularly for a WILD.

I'll need to read up on this more!  I see some experimentation with cold water in my future.   :Nod yes:

----------


## Xanous

Those are some really cool ideas with the cold water. I may be looking into that myself. By the way, I've obtained a copy of Buzz: The Science and Lore of Alcohol and Caffeine. I don't know if it will shed any light on the effect of the brain especially while dreaming but it should be interesting. I'll report back if there is anything useful.  ::D:

----------


## Highlander

I think that I first picked up about the water reflex from a related thread or two here on DV somewhere?
Basically someone was experimenting with breathing or going underwater, etc. Taking cold baths was mentioned also I think.
I noticed the thread last year which was about the use of water to help gain lucidity - except I've done a quick search and I cannot find it!  :Sad: 

I did try splashing cold water on my forehead (for over 20 sec) during WBTB last year where I noticed that it became a 'dreamsign' which was incubated in a couple of dreams I had at the time!  :smiley:

----------


## NyxCC

> I did try splashing cold water on my forehead (for over 20 sec) during WBTB last year where I noticed that it became a 'dreamsign' which was incubated in a couple of dreams I had at the time!



So basically when we do this _induction method_ we must not forget to RC?  ::lol::

----------


## Highlander

> So basically when we do this _induction method_ we must not forget to RC?



I'd never really thought of it as a 'method' as such whatsoever, so by all means try it.
The main reason I was splashing cold water on my forehead (during WBTB) is more often than not I would have a bit of a headache building up. (Although I did read that other thread afterwards last year, later on regarding LD.)
The cold water helped soothe the discomfort and pain as I couldn't really take painkillers on an empty stomach as they made me feel sick, etc.
I guess I did it fairly often that at one point I noticed it in a couple or so dreams I had at the time.

*TL;DR -* If the action (or method) of doing this _incubates_ into your dream, then yes, by all means RC!  :smiley:

----------


## Xanous

*Date*: July 7th
*Dose*: A mug of straight black espresso.
*Supporting Supplements*: 1000mg Taurine. *Prebed*: 3mg Melatonin, 50mg B6
*WBTB/dose time*: 4:00AM
*Technique*: MILD
*Lucid*: Hell yeah!
Comments: The quality and success of this dream is much like my initial results. I was very pleased but the following insomnia is really bad now. It's been about an hour since I woke up so hopefully I can lay back down for a WILD. I did have some restless legs issues during the first half of the night. Sometimes B6 will do that do me during times that I am more prone to it. 

Mr. Hugs The Firecracker Eater - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* 1 bag green tea (WBTB)
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 100mg 5-HTP, 500mg B5; WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 600mg Alpha-GPC, 3 bags peppermint tea, 200mg L-theanine
*Bedtime:* 11:00PM
*WBTB wake time:* 3:45AM
*Dose Time:* 3:45AM
*Technique:* DILD (?) / DEILD
*Lucid:* Yes!  (Two DILDs (?) + 1 DEILD)

I think that these dreams were DILDs, although I'm just not completely sure on the first one.  Raising the caffeine just a bit does seem like a viable option, but so long as I'm hitting lucids with this combo I probably won't mess with it.

Still, it'd be cool to hit some WILDs again.  Caffeine clearly seems to help DILDs as well (certainly in my experience, a lot of present-day accounts, and Xanous' trials back in the day.)  But WILD seems even more perfect for caffeine.

But yeah, I came very, very close to a WILD this morning.  I felt myself going under and just couldn't help myself... I got really excited!  I could even feel my heart rate jump up and thought, "Ah well, I blew that..."  That's not a problem of too little caffeine.  That's a technique and emotional control issue, I'm afraid!

The lucids:
Sandwiches for Skeptics - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views
Dive Bomber in Darkness - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Wurlman

DOSE: About half the caffeine in ur premium cup of coffee 
WILD
JULY 8th
NO ADDED SUPPLEMENTS JUST CAFFEINE 
I drank a redbull In the morning but no caffeine after that intell after i went to bed.3 and 1/2 hours after bed on my WBTB the coffee we have is about half the caffeine then ur leading cup of coffee I drank 1 cold cup and chugged. I stayed awake for about 15 20 min. Give or take. Then I layed there for a long time I think I would have reached lucidity quicker if I dident have the "swallows" but then I had 3 WILD Lucid chains and 1 FA were I became lucid as well :-) my girl said she will save me 1 cup of coffee for my WBTB every night..... It took about In hour and a half of sleep from me so I will b going back to bed earlyer tonight so I still get my 7 hours I need...... The caffeine gave me the boost I needed to stay focused well my body fell asleep!!!!

----------


## Xanous

*Date*: July 9th (AM)
*Dose*: 2 bags green tea
*Supporting Supplements*: 4000MG L-Glutamine, 400MG L-Theanine 
*Prebed*: 3mg Melatonin, 25ish mg B6
*WBTB/dose time*: 3:50AM
*Technique*: Mantra
*Lucid*: No

*Comments*: I woke at some point for with no recall. It was a gradual awakening and the feeling of returning to my physical body was much like wakening from a lucid. However, I suspect that since I actually woke naturally for once from a vivid dream (that I forgot to record) that I many not have been back into the REM period at this point. I think I must have awakened at the usual 45-60min after dose. I stayed still not moving or opening my eyes but I quickly fell non-lucid. I had poor execution of MILD and just said some mantra before passing out. 

About 2.5hrs after dose I had a very vivid and violent dream where the antagonist was stabbed in the throat with something like a fireplace poker then changed to a knife blade on the end like a spear. I watched the man sputter and gasp as he died slowly and painfully. I began to pity him and felt emotionally sick to my stomach.

I usually don't have dreams like this and I can't help but wonder if this combo was the cause for the violent dream since this was my first time with it.

----------


## Xanous

Hey peeps! If you don't mind I would love it if both current and future participants could include a little more information. I know it's a lot of info so if it's too much then don't worry about it, no big deal. I'm basically changing my posting format to help me understand things like tolerance, right dosage, and amount of sleep. So It'll probably look something like this from now on.

Dose: 
Supporting Supplements: 
Prebed Supplements:
Current Average Daily Intake: (CADI?)
Amount of Caffeine during previous day:
Bedtime:
WBTB time and length:
time of dose: 3:50AM
Morning wake time:
Technique: 
Lucid:
Insomnia/loss of sleep:

----------


## CanisLucidus

Roger that, Xanous.  I'll go with the new format.

Do you think you'll take another crack at hitting the glutamatergic pathway again (with the L-glutamine / L-theanine combo)?  I was really hoping you'd get a better result than I would.  I wound up doing less dreaming and being sort of anxious and jumpy throughout the morning.   ::whyme:: 

Oh hey Wurlman, do you happen to know how many milligrams of caffeine were in the coffee you had?  That's cool if not, but you can't blame me for being interested in 4 lucids off of pure caffeine with no supporting supps.   ::D:

----------


## Xanous

> Roger that, Xanous.  I'll go with the new format.
> 
> Do you think you'll take another crack at hitting the glutamatergic pathway again (with the L-glutamine / L-theanine combo)?  I was really hoping you'd get a better result than I would.  I wound up doing less dreaming and being sort of anxious and jumpy throughout the morning.



Thank you. I also added "Insomnia/loss of sleep:" tag too. It's all suggestion, of course,  but thanks for playing along.  ::D: 

I'll probably try that combo again sometime but maybe without caffeine. Plus I'd really like some L-aspartic acid soon. I just hope that kind of gory dream is not the norm.  ::?:  

BTW Wurlman. I'm not sure you should have coffee every night. I know experience that you will wear yourself but going to bed earlier, like you said, may compensate for that. Just be careful and be nice yourself.  :Cheeky: 


EDIT: All this makes me wonder and maybe I've read it someplace but it seems all lucid dreaming is mind literally awake while dreaming. Perhaps it's caffeine's effect on the mind at the right moment that is waking us up in our dreams. Hmmm. :Thinking:

----------


## Wurlman

Yea I dident this morning from working all day and not getting good rest thank u for ur concern....., i like the new formate sorry if I dident do it right lol I had to edit about 4 times

----------


## Xanous

*Dose*: Cold Espresso from 2.5 tablespoons coffee grounds. (150-250mg?)
*Supporting Supplements*: 2000mg Taurine
*Prebed Supplements*: Not sure if it counts but 1 shot vodka @ 7PM
*CADI*: Early Morning Espresso or Cappuccino  (about 4tbs coffee grounds, raw milk, stevia)
*CDD*: Cappuccino @ 6:30AM and 1 cup regular coffee @ 9:30Am
*Bedtime*: 10:15PM (Hard time sleeping so probably 10:45PM)
*WBTB time and length*:4:00AM up only long enough to chug cold coffee and say a few affirmations
*Time of dose*: 4:00AM
*Morning wake time*: 5:10AM
*Technique*:MILD to WILD
*Lucid*: Micro
*Insomnia/loss of sleep*: Took about 30 to 40 min to fall back to sleep then woke at 5:10AM wanting to DJ. It was close enough to wake up time that I didn't bother fighting wakefulness again. 
*Total sleep:* 5.25 hours pre-sleep. 0.5 hours post-sleep. *5.75hrs total*.
*Comments:* I can't recall any other dreams except for the lucid part. I had a very convincing FA and did an in dream WILD but I woke up before I got very far. I could be wrong but it felt very much like this 30min or so was mostly nREM. Then my dream was cut short by peak caffeine wakefulness. It's hard to hit that sweet spot sometimes. I wish I had a way to measure my REM cycles!

In-Dream WILD (Micro) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

*A WORD OF CAUTION*

I haven't looked too deeply into this but is sees that taking caffeine and then lying down can cause heart palpitations and therefore *might* cause a slight increase for heart problems. If you have any medical conditions with your heart you may not want to do this. I have been warned by a family member who is a nurse and while I think she is overly concerned, I think it's good to keep this in mind. I've only noticed an increase in heart rate upon waking once since I have been watching out for this. Of course it could have just been excitement anyway. I feel that I, myself am in no real danger but wanted to warn you all. If anyone has anything to add to this then feel free.

Palpitations When Lying Down

----------


## Xanous

> Yea I dident this morning from working all day and not getting good rest thank u for ur concern....., i like the new formate sorry if I dident do it right lol I had to edit about 4 times



Ok good deal. No you're fine, dude. It was only a suggestion.

----------


## Xanous

UPDATE

Ok I spent the past two days doing hard strenuous research on the effects of caffeine on the brain. Or maybe I just listened to a book on my PDF reader.  ::lol::  Well the book I mentioned before, Buzz, gave me a few things to consider here but not as much as I had hoped. It was a pretty broad and didn't say much about sleep and dreaming BUT there are a few things I can share. By the way, a lot of this from memory so hopefully I recall everything correctly.

*Mechanism in a Nutshell*

Humans have 4 types of Adenosine receptors. The caffeine molecule is closely similar to the Adenosine molecule and is able to effectively masquerade as one. Once it reaches the Adenosine receptor it is able to alter the function and block it. In the brain Adenosine acts like "brakes" and controls the slowing down neurorecptors. Caffeine does not actually make a person awake but actually blocks these receptors as effectively as putting a brick under the brake peddle preventing you from slowing down. 





> Adenosine acts as an inhibitor neurotransmitter that suppresses activity in the central nervous system. Consumption of caffeine antagonizes adenosine and increases activity in neurotransmission including acetylcholine (ACh), epinephrine, dopamine, serotonin, glutamate, norepinephrine, cortisol, and in higher doses, endorphins which explains the analgesic effect to some users. At very high doses (exceeding 500 milligrams) caffeine inhibits GABA neurotransmission. This evidence explains why caffeine causes anxiety, insomnia, rapid heart and respiration rate.



All of that seems fine, but he thing that gets me excited is that caffeine increases ACh. However, I worry about serotonin increasing as as well. What exactly are the levels of each one? Do they negate each other? I am not sure.





> Role in Dream Formation
> 
> While serotonin levels are lower in sleep than while awake, they are at their lowest during REM sleep, also known as dreaming sleep. In effect, neurons with serotonin receptors are active during all stages of sleep until REM, so they appear to act as a "REM inhibitor" most of the time, as reported by "Sleep Research Online" in 1999. When serotonin levels drop, the neurotransmitter acetylocholine rises in the brain. This is why many anti-depressants reduce dreaming sleep, because increasing serotonin levels inhibit the rise of acetylocholine, according to sleep scientist James Pagel in his book "The Limits of Dream."
> 
> Role in Sleep Disruption
> 
> Low serotonin levels result in sleep disruption and sleep disorders, including insomnia. Stress is a common cause of low serotonin levels, resulting in a snowballing feedback cycle of disrupted sleep, depression, anxiety and fatigue during the day, according to clinical psychologist Joseph M. Carver. You can give your sleep life a jump-start by eating foods high in tryptophan, a precursor to serotonin, as well as by getting daily exercise. In general, high-carbohydrate foods like potatoes and grains have tryptophan, as do most cheeses and meats. Mindfulness practices such as meditation and yoga are also linked to higher levels of serotonin. While high levels of serotonin may lead to feelings of bliss and happiness, there can be too much of a good thing. Excess serotonin levels are toxic to the brain, and can lead to a condition known as "serotonin syndrome."
> 
> Read more: How Does Serotonin Affect Sleep? | LIVESTRONG.COM



So depending on levels of serotonin and ACh in the brain at the time, as well as the caffeine dosage and effect, this may explain the hit and miss as well as the 1 hour time window I seem to have until peak. I've noticed several times that either the dream gets cut short or there seems to be very little dream time at all. 

*Cognition*

According to Buzz, there have been studies that seems to suggest that caffeine is helpful in monotonous data driven tasks or task that require greater focus. On the flip side, when it comes to logical reasoning there is no effect or even degraded performance. (By the way, when Buddhist monks discovered coffee they found it very useful in prolonging meditation and prayer.) Contradictorily, the opposite may be true in depending on the individual. The author suggest that the exact cognitive effect can vary from person to person. Either way, it's clear that it can greatly aid a person becoming aware within a dream. Regardless there always seems to be increased recall and vividness within 1-3 hours depending on dosage.

*Tolerance*

It seems that tolerance happens like this. Any time we put any drug or mind altering substance in our body the brain wants to work to normalize. The more we regularly put that substance in our body the more the brain will change to accommodate normalization. So when we constantly suppress Andenosine receptors in our body the brain can actually increase the number or receptors requiring more levels caffeine to get the same effect. This also explains why when a person addicted to caffeine suddenly quits they will tend to feel tired and lethargic. I suspect this is obviously reversible with absence.
So it seems, as with all things, moderation is the key. 


I still think that the biggest challenge here is finding the right amount of caffeine so that we mentally wake up in a dream and not end up with non lucid nREM or worse insomnia.

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* 1 bag green tea (WBTB)
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 100mg 5-HTP; WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 500mg choline bitartrate, 600mg Alpha-GPC, 3 bags peppermint tea
*Bedtime:* 11:30PM
*WBTB wake time:* ~3:40AM
*Dose Time:* ~3:40AM
*Technique:* DILD
*Lucid:* Yes!  One DILD + one micro-lucid via DILD

I didn’t manage a WILD, but as usual caffeine seems to help with DILDs, too.  This was a very long, stable lucid, so I think it’s clear that low doses of caffeine still allow for lots and lots of REM dreaming *and* stable dreams.

As long as the doses are modest, it doesn’t seem to make me any more likely to awaken prematurely.  There was a lot going on in this dream and still it held together well.  The non-lucids that hit after this dose were also long and quite vivid.

The lucid dream:
Donkey Kong Junior - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Xanous

Monday Morning, 7.29.13

*Dose*: Six green tea bags, about 1/8 cup mugwort, prepared in stovetop espresso 
*Supporting Supplements*: Mugwort
*Prebed Supplements*: None
*CADI*: about two-three cups normal coffee
*CDD*: 1 bag green tea, 1 cup coffee
*Bedtime*: 9ish? 
*WBTB time and length*:3:00AM? breif
*Time of dose*: 3:00AM?
*Morning wake time*: about 4AM
*Technique*:SSILD
*Lucid*: Yes
*Insomnia/loss of sleep*: Fell asleep straight away and got horrible insomnia about 45min later. I think I found my upper limits with green tea!
*Total sleep*: 7ish
*Comments:*: I had a strange DEILDy half formed LD were I was dancing with a young Audrey Hepburn (Or a photo of her anyway) in black and white to the tune of "A Kiss To Build A Dream On".

Dancing With Audrey Hepburn - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Xanous

*Dose*: 3 green tea bags prepared in stovetop espresso
*Supporting Supplements*: Amino Acid Blend
*Prebed Supplements*: None
*CADI*: about two-three cups normal coffee
*CDD*: 2 cups coffee
*Bedtime*: 9PM
*WBTB time and length*:3:00AM breif
*Time of dose*: 3:00AM
*Morning wake time*: about 4:30AM / alarm at 5AM
*Technique*:WILD
*Lucid*: Yes
*Insomnia/loss of sleep*: Not much. I think I was just at the right amount.
*Comments*: So it seems like caffeine works as a time cheat. The right amount seems to give the same half wakefulness during mid morning as it does late morning. This was the first time trying AAB with caffeine and I am very pleased with the results. I'll be repeating this again some time in the near future. 

The Italian - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Xanous

*Dose*: 4 green tea bags prepared in stovetop espresso
*Supporting Supplements*:Mugwort, 120mg L-Dopa
*Prebed Supplements*: None
*CADI*: two cups normal coffee
*CDD*: 2 cups coffee
*Bedtime*: 9:30PM
*WBTB time and length*:3:00AM breif
*Time of dose*: 3:00AM
*Morning wake time*: about 4:00AM / alarm at 5AM
*Technique*:SSILD
*Lucid*: Yes
*Insomnia/loss of sleep*: Got me at 4:00 only had 6.5 hours sleep total  :Sad: 
*Comments*: I think I need to go back down to 3 bags; especially with L-Dopa. I failed to report it (mostly because it was a failure) but I went with 3 bags and AAB a few nights ago and didn't even recall a dream. Of course, I was exhausted so I was set up for failure from the get go. Hell, I may _have_ had a lucid and just forgot it. Anyway, 3 bags may be nominal for my current caffeine intake unless I am a bit more tired. Also, since I drink caffeine daily, I don't really see any harm or worry in frequency of use with as long as I make up for or reduce any insomnia effects. I may try going to bed a little early next time to make up for the hour or so that I may lose in sleep. That's always easier said than done.

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* 1 bag green tea (WBTB)
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 3mg melatonin; WBTB: Yuschak Amino Acid Blend (4g L-glutamine, 2g L-aspartic acid, 300mg L-theanine)
*Bedtime:* 11:00PM
*WBTB wake time:* ~4:15AM
*Dose Time:* ~4:15AM
*Technique:* MILD
*Lucid:* No

This is the beginning of my experiment with combining the Yuschak Amino Acid Blend with caffeine.  The AAB has never done much for me by itself, so I'm trying to see whether combining it with an aid like caffeine might turn it into a decent trigger.  Since the AAB works on completely different pathways from cholinergics like galantamine, it'd be nice if I could make something happen with it.

I had some cool dreams, at least, but they were all non-lucid.  One unhelpful factor was one of my dogs acting crazy during WBTB, which was a big distraction.  I'll probably try raising this to 2 bags of green tea next time and see how it goes.

Edit: Something else interesting that I should mention... when I woke up this morning, I immediately had a big flash of insight on how to tackle a somewhat difficult work-related problem.  Kinda cool.  Didn't mind that, gotta say.   :smiley:

----------


## Highlander

*Dose:* 50 mg Pro plus caffeine (with water)
*Supporting Supplements:* None 
*Prebed Supplements:* None (See notes)
*Bedtime:* 11.28 pm
*WBTB time and length:* 5.50 am (23 min) 
*Time of dose:* 6.05 am
*Morning wake time:* 5.50 am (alarm)
*Technique:* DILD
*Lucid:* Yes
*Insomnia/loss of sleep:* No problem – dropped off to sleep fairly quickly due to still feeling drowsy and with taking a short WBTB. (Total sleep time = 9.25 hrs approx)
*Comments:* A very vivid and interactive dream which seemed initially quite real. I had awareness, but I had to work hard at it to gain lucidity.
Slight sexual theme just before lucidity. Quite a fun dream. Excellent recall noted.
(Note: This is on the back of taking G and C early yesterday morning which mainly caused transitions and a sexual dream along with a lot of recall, etc. Residue?)

The sunset, etc (DILD) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## CanisLucidus

*Dose:* 1 bag green tea (WBTB)
*Supporting Supplements:* Prebed: 100mg 5-HTP; WBTB: 2xGalantamind (8mg galantamine, choline, B5), 500mg choline bitartrate, 600mg Alpha-GPC
*Bedtime:* 11:00PM
*WBTB wake time:* ~4:10AM
*Dose Time:* ~4:10AM
*Technique:* MILD
*Lucid:* Yes!

This was a nice, solid LD.  I took a risk by taking my supps during a WBTB that was only 2 hours before my waking time, but it all worked out in the end.  May not have been the most cautious move, but I wasn't punished for it.   :smiley: 

I tried to DEILD when the LD ended and very nearly succeeded but couldn't keep the new scene stable.  I doubt this has much to do with the caffeine but it's worth noting.  It was _so close_.

Caught in a Net - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Highlander

*Dose:* 50 mg Pro plus caffeine (with water)
*Supporting Supplements:* None 
*Prebed Supplements:* None 
*Bedtime:* 10.58 pm
*WBTB time and length:* 5.50 am (20 min) 
*Time of dose:* 6.05 am
*Morning wake time:* 5.50 am and 6.00 am ( - see note)
*Technique:* DILD
*Lucid:* Yes
*Insomnia/loss of sleep:* I did take a rest/snooze at the start of the WBTB as I woke up 10 minutes before the alarm which I then switched off.
Post-WBTB was not a major problem. I did feel a bit warm though and slightly uncomfortable (which wasn’t Caffeine related.)  
I did repeat a couple or so mantras, etc. and I had my totem.
(Total sleep time = 8.75 hrs approx)
*Comments:* A fairly vivid and interactive dream. I had reasonable awareness, but I did sort of get sidetracked.
I did have some control where I could think, etc. The dream was quite a long affair for me. 
I had good recall of the event which helped with recording details, etc. which included other NLD’s.

The telephone, etc (DILD) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Xanous

I haven't had much time to keep up with the thread but I have tried various combos with caffeine (AAB, L-DOPA, B6, Taurine, Mugwort) but all of them did not result in lucidity just really vivid dreams. Which isn't so bad but I think I have been a little too tired to have any real lucid effects.

----------


## Highlander

*Dose:* 50 mg Pro plus caffeine (with water)
*Supporting Supplements:* None 
*Prebed Supplements:* None 
*Bedtime:* 11.11 pm
*WBTB time and length:* 5.15 am (17 min) 
*Time of dose:* 5.22 am
*Morning wake time:* 5.15 am (although I did wake up once or twice after the main dreams, etc.)
*Technique:* DILD (see note)
*Lucid:* Yes (x2)
*Insomnia/loss of sleep:* I did have a bit of post-WBTB restlessness/insomnia due to over thinking and erroneous thoughts during the MILD phase generally; although it did settle down.
(I did repeat a couple or so mantras, etc. and I had my totem.)
Post-WBTB was mainly due to post DILD excitement and feeling a bit warm/uncomfortable. 
(Total sleep time = 10.25 hrs approx)
*Comments:* A fairly vivid and interactive main dream. I had excellent awareness, etc.
I did have good control where I could think, etc. The dream was quite long considering, plus I managed to incubate and do various tasks.
I had excellent recall post-WBTB, although I did recall some pre-WBTB (non-Caffeine related) NL dreams.

TOTM attempt. Mom, etc. (DILD’s) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

----------


## Xanous

Highlander, how much caffeine do you typically ingest in a day/week ect? I am thinking about abstaining from my usual morning coffee for about a week and then trying this again to see if I can get my success rate back up. It still puzzles me that it was so effective in the beginning and now its just hit and miss. The only problem I can think of it tolerance. 

Maybe its a lot like any other aid; too much too often will lessen the effectiveness. I've just got to figure out how long in between. Like with Galantamine, for example, CL and I have found that every 5 days works well. Maybe I should do something similar with caffeine though the thought of never having my morning coffee for the sake of the experiment makes me really apprehensive though I've done it before.  ::rolleyes:: 

So, If caffeine has a half life of 3-5 hours then surely in 24 hours the body will be mostly clear of it. So every 2 to 3 days would seem ok if using caffeine only for dreaming purposes and not consuming any during the day. Perhaps if I abstain for the tradition 3 days to clear any addiction I could do a caffeine WBTB then.

I'm just thinking out loud here (out loud typing?) so any thoughts would be great.  ::D:

----------


## Highlander

I'm looking at about 4 cups of tea regularly (spaced) per day, plus about 6 chocolate coated digestive biscuits. (3 at lunch, maybe 3 in the evening.)
No fizzy pop or Coca Cola. No 'energy' drinks, etc.

I'm not sure how much that equates regarding actual Caffeine consumption per day. I would have to check on that and get back to you, although I do know there is generally less caffeine in a cup of tea, etc.

Sometimes if I take a caffeine pill during a WBTB I have removed a cup of tea from my daily routine later to try and compensate.

I generally take the caffeine (50 mg) during WBTB roughly once a week where I have had very good results so far.

Hope that helps.  :smiley:

----------


## Xanous

Thanks. Just off the top of my head that's probably no where near the amount of caffeine the average coffee drinker consumes. Plus, I'm not sure but isn't the caffeine in chocolate pretty minuscule? Also, theres theobromine to consider... anyway, you're probably on the lower side of caffeine consumption. Good idea compensating tea consumption when you WBTB caffeine.

----------


## Highlander

No I didn't think I consumed a lot.

I think the caffeine/wbtb seems to complement my dreaming and/or DILD routine, whereas G(+C) I have slight issues with, mainly stability and LD length. (Early days though!)

I don't seem to get that issue with caffeine. It is hard to say regarding yourself. Maybe your body has got used to your routine(s) maybe?

Let us know if you find out.

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## NyxCC

Hmmm, my average intake is more or less the same as Highlander's which may explain why the caffeine trials have been so effective. 

Xanous, if you can substitute coffee for black tea perhaps it will be easier to adjust. You can have a lighter tea in the afternoon when you begin to feel tired. Good luck with your experiments!  :smiley:

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## Xanous

Highlander, I had issues with galantamine my first few nights. My LDs were short but it was because the insomnia was so bad. Now it doesn't seem to be an issue. My caffeine LD's are usually much shorter and I tend to wake at the one hour mark.

NyxCC, I think green tea would be a suitable alternative if I just HAVE to have caffeine. I've done this before and the lower amount seems to make this a good idea to ween myself off if need be.

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## Highlander

*Dose:* 50 mg Pro plus caffeine (with water)
*Supporting Supplements:* None 
*Prebed Supplements:* Nytol (herbal) x2 – (Contains Valerian, Passion flower and Hops)
*Bedtime:* 11.55 pm
*WBTB time and length:* 5.50 am (32 min) 
*Time of dose:* 6.15 am
*Morning wake time:* 9.52 am 
*Technique:* DILD
*Lucid:* Yes
*Insomnia/loss of sleep:* I took at least an hour to drop off to sleep last night (even after the Nytol) due to feeling a bit restless, etc.
Post-WBTB was not really a problem. I did feel a bit 'down' though (which wasn’t Caffeine related.)  
(Total sleep time = 8 – 9.25 hrs approx)
*Comments:* Had a crap-ton of dreams. 
I remember waking up at least 2-3 times during the night.
Good recall and dream vividness, inc. the pre-WBTB dreams.
I did gain awareness where the dream became a DILD. I didn’t have a lot of influence where must have lost lucidity and gone into another dream or scenario.
There were some memorable dreams either side of my WBTB, although the (non-Caffeine related) one was a bit emotional and a bit nightmarish.

http://www.dreamviews.com/blogs/high...tc-dild-50934/

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## Xanous

*Dose*: 4 green tea bags 
*Supporting Supplements*:none
*Prebed Supplements*: None
*CADI*: two cups normal coffee 
*CDD*: 2 cups coffee
*Bedtime*: 9:30PM
*WBTB time and length*:4:00AM brief
*Time of dose*: 4:00AM
*Morning wake time*: 6AM
*Technique*:SSILD
*Lucid*: Yes
*Insomnia/loss of sleep*:very little

*Comments*: 
Yeah so I didn't quit my morning coffee but I have kept to two cups in the morning and nothing else. I think I'll hold it there for now since I had a win this morning and with only 4 green tea bags.
I was really disappointed when I woke up after the usual hour and recalled only a brief image. I felt slight wakefulness but still sleepy so I decided to concentrate harder and fell back to sleep. I feel like I slept really light that last hour and was surprised with a DILD. Maybe the key for me is not during the first hour only. It seems like the right amount of wakefulness could extend a little longer that I expect.

Wal-Mart - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

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## Highlander

Dose: 50 mg Pro plus caffeine (with water)
Supporting Supplements: None 
Prebed Supplements: None
Bedtime: 11.06 pm
WBTB time and length: (5.15 am – missed) 6.21 am (20 minutes)
Time of dose: 6.30 am
Morning wake time: 8.57 am (The last half hour or so I just rested.) 
Technique: DILD 
Lucid: Yes
Insomnia/loss of sleep: I had no real problems dropping off to sleep.
I did snooze after my intended WBTB time (5.15 am) although I woke naturally for a WBTB a bit after.
(Total sleep time = 7.5 – 8.25 hrs approx)
Comments: I had some form of sexy dream start forming post-WBTB.
Quite good recall in general with good awareness resulting in a fairly long DILD. The atmosphere was quite stable and reasonably vivid, plus I could remember tasks, etc.
N.B. Pre-WBTB (non-Caffeine) dreams were also recalled well.
Flashback much later on.

The Art award – TOTM attempt, etc (DILD) - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

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## Xanous

::goodjob::  Great stuff Highlander! This seems to be working well for you.

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## Highlander

Thanks Xanous!

It seems to complement my WBTB routine. I just have to be mindful of my body getting used to my routine(s) a la 'other supplements.'

So long as I don't try things too regular.  :smiley:

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## Highlander

*Dose:* 50 mg Pro plus caffeine (with water)
*Supporting Supplements:* None 
*Prebed Supplements:* None
*Bedtime:* 11.06 pm
*WBTB time and length:* 6.42 am (24 min) 
*Time of dose:* 7.00 am
*Morning wake time:* 9.11 am (rising)
*Technique:* DILD
*Lucid:* Yes
*Insomnia/loss of sleep:* I took at least an half and hour to drop off to sleep last night where I experienced some transient HI beforehand. (Non-caffeine related however.)
Post-WBTB was not a problem. (There was a lot of bright ambient sunlight in the room.) I did feel a bit alert post-DILD which is to be expected.
(Total sleep time = 8.5 – 9.25 hrs approx)
*Comments:* 
I managed to drift off to sleep fairly easily post-WBTB. I had good awareness in the main dream which was fairly vivid which resulted in a DILD. The stability was a bit of an issue however (possibly due to ambient sunlight/time in the morning maybe?)
I was able to visualize scenes and thoughts post-DILD whilst resting but still feeling a little drowsy in bed, inc. a brief transition related sound at one point.
N.B. I managed to recall a pre-WBTB dream which is obviously non-caffeine (supplement) related as such. (I did take a Galantamine-based supplement about 24 hrs earlier also.)
Crystal totem(s) and very basic (occasional) MILD-type affirmations used during WBTB/post-WBTB.

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## NyxCC

Caffeine entries have been piling up, so I am putting a summary in the two tables below. 

We are looking at two weeks: 9-15 Sept, 16-22 Sept. During these two weeks due to external factors, I had to drastically change my eating habits, and basically have dinner 4 hrs early. The first week, I observed a significant decline in recall, extremely deep sleep and had only two micro-lds. During that time, I also did the usual WBTBs plus very good supps including caffeine, yet the result was frustrating. There was also some stress and other distractions going on but towards the end of the first week, I concluded that the extra early dinner was depriving me of some recall and ld needed nutrients. Therefore, the following week, still under the early dinner plan, I decided to rearrange food quantities, eating slightly less during early dinner (women!) and have a _secret_ pre bed snack, consisting of mini portions of fruit, bread and some fish.  ::shock:: 

Other factors remained more or less the same during week 2, I continued caffeinating, this time seeing improvement in recall and ld frequency. Ld quality was overall average to below average for most, but got a 4/4 caffeine success rate, so really shouldn't complain.

In the meantime, I have returned to my not so healthy but perhaps useful habit of eating a rather late dinner. Ld rate is up, so there might be a connection after all.  :Thinking: 

*Date:*10 Sept11 Sept12 Sept*Dose:*26 mg caff. (latte)48 mg caff. (latte)40 mg caff. RB*Supporting Supps:*n/an/an/a*Prebed Supps:*200mg valerian80 mg gingko3 mg mel*CADI:*3-4 cups of tea3-4 cups of tea3-4 cups of tea*CDD:*4 cups of tea3-4 cups of tea + the latte3-4 cups of tea + the latte*WBTB/Dose Time:*+ 6 hrs+ 6 hrs+ 6 hrs*Technique*mantramantramantra*Lucid:*prior to wbtbnono?!*Insomnia/loss of sleep:*None at allnono*Comments:*very sleepysleepysleepy
DJ Entry 10 Sept - Nutty Feeling

*Date:*16 Sept17 Sept19 Sept20 Sept*Dose:*26 mg caff. (la)26 mg caff. (la)60 mg caffeine (RB)26 mg caff. (la)*Prebed Supps:*3mg mel80 mg gingko200mg valeriann/a*CADI:*3-4 cups of tea3-4 cups of tea3-4 cups of tea3-4 cups of tea*CDD:*3-4 cups of tea + a capuccino3-4 cups of tea + the latte3-4 cups of tea + the latte3-4 cups of tea + the RB*WBTB/Dose Time:*+ 6 hrs+ 5.5 hrs+ 5.5 hrs+ 6 hrs*Technique*mantramantramantramantra*Lucid:*yes, very long tooyes, short one, caught DSyesyes, short one*Insomnia/loss of sleep:*okokokok
DJ Entry 16 Sept Part I - Details

DJ Entry 16 Sept Part II - Voicemail

DJ Entries 17 & 20 Sept - Summary

DJ Entry 19 Sept - In love & Falling

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## Highlander

*Dose:* 50 mg Pro plus caffeine (with water)
*Supporting Supplements:* None 
*Prebed Supplements:* None
*Bedtime:* 11.11 pm
*WBTB time and length:* 6.00 am (23 min) 
*Time of dose:* 6.10 am
*Morning wake time:* 9.44 am (final)
*Technique:* Intention
*Lucid:* No
*Insomnia/loss of sleep:* I took at least an hour to drop off to sleep last night. I did experience some HI/dreamlets in-between. (Not caffeine-related.)
Pre-WBTB I experienced a nightmare FA. 
Post-WBTB was not really a problem regarding sleep.  
(Total sleep time = 9 – 10 hrs approx)
*Comments:* 
Good recall and dream vividness, etc. The scenes seemed quite crisp and bright with storylines (post-WBTB.)
Post-WBTB totems.
I experienced some HI/image ‘flickering’ whilst resting in bed.
The (pre-WBTB) nightmare was not caffeine related but it was certainly memorable. A throwback to the highly creative (but dark) 1990’s for me.

Terror FA. Creeping about, etc - Dream Journals - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views  :Eek:

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## Xanous

from a few nights ago

*Dose*: 6 bag green tea steeped prebed
*Supporting Supplements*: 4g l-glutamine, 4g l-aspartic acid
*Prebed Supplements:* None
*CADI:* about 4 cups normal coffee
*Bedtime*: 10PM
*Time of dose:* 4:00AM
*Morning wake time:* 6am
*Technique*: derp (I failed to induce. I was trying to decide my lucid task and fell asleep.)
*Lucid:* Yes (low level)
*Insomnia/loss of sleep*: 15-20 min
*Comments* I got a strange low level lucid where I met a DC woman in my bathroom during an OBE type dream.  I asked her to show me something amazing and ended up in a SP type feeling. A specific DV member was next to me telling me something. When I woke up I tried to recall the dream but re-entered it non lucid into an FA. I began telling co-workers in my bedroom about my LD experience and recalled more than perhaps actually happened. I later found out that the DV member I dreamed about had a simular dream about me at about the same time! Did we have a shared dreaming experience? It seems likely!  :Thinking:

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## Xanous

*Dose*: strong homemade latte
*Supporting Supplements*: 100mg B6, 1mg Melatonin
*Prebed Supplements*: None
*Average caffeine*: about 2 cups normal coffee early
*Bedtime*: 930PM
*Time of dose*: 330AM
*Technique*: SSILD but didn't follow through well.
*Lucid*: No but I was so damned close
*Insomnia/loss of sleep*: none

*Comments*: I woke about an hour after dose from a very vivid NLD and I came really close to dawning awareness 3 times in the dream. Maybe if I had followed through better with my tech I would have got lucid. I think I should start making my WBTB longer than a few minutes so that I don't just pass out so fast. I also found it interesting that texted Wurlman in the dream about an actual dream I had just before my WBTB (a NLD that I was I lucid). Also since I wake so automatically after 1 hour I may time my dose closer to an hour before the alarm. I like some cushion in case induction takes a little longer so maybe 1.5 hours instead of the usual 2. Another thing to note was that I was having some intensely vivid dreams after waking and between snoozes. Very SciFi and continued after the snooze. Might be DJ worthy.

BTW my son slapped my keyboard and reloaded the page. Yay for autosave!

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## Xanous

So I think it's pretty clear what caffeine does for lucid dreaming. Yes, I can work as a trigger but it is also a little tricky. We need the right amount for the moment without causing insomnia. Small doses of caffeine also works great to add with other LDS like galantamine, mugwort... pretty much anything. And obviously the less caffeine you habitually drink during the day the greater effect it has on triggering a LD. That' a really brief summary but that's pretty much all I took from this test.

I truly appreciate those few of you that bothered to post here and I have really enjoyed seeing your results. Feel free to continue to post here but I'll no longer be posting my trails. Also, if you have any final thoughts on your experiences I'd love to hear about. Thanks again everyone! 
*
LD for life!* :Rock out:

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## NyxCC

Well, you know that I've had some good results with caffeine and want to  ::thanks::  for starting this research. I've managed to break two dry spells (7 & 6 days I think) with the help of caffeine and have gotten some really awesome lds with it, plus bonus unexpected wilds. For me caffeine has proven to be a great lucid aid, being extremely effective for induction. 

On the negative side, I've had  issues with insomnia and also some lds have been a bit shallow. Overtime however, I've reduced the amount of caffeine to 30-50 approximately and the negative effects have diminished. I guess it is about each individual finding out what amount of caffeine is optimal for them, plus this will vary with the types of combos used as well. 

Overall, I'd say I have really enjoyed experimenting with caffeine as a trigger and will continue using it as a lucid aid as circumstances permit. For me, it has really made a great diffence and I want to thank you for that. Keep lding and don't forget to update us if you stumble upon something interesting.  ::goodjob2::

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## CanisLucidus

Thanks for the review, both of you!  Nyx, your chart rocks... and Xanous, thanks for the months of research and knowledge-sharing on caffeine ever since you had such good luck with it last year.

Nyx, have you found 50mgs to be as effective for you as the larger doses you tried before that resulted in insomnia?

Also, did we ever reach a conclusion on whether caffeine helped as much for DILDs as it does for WILDs?  On my G nights, I definitely noticed that it raised the odds of a WILD vs. a DILD by a great deal.

I'd love to experiment more with caffeine, but I'm dealing with major issues getting back to sleep during WBTB at the moment.  I have a lot of stuff on my mind that I'm very very excited about all the time and it's making it hard for me to get back to sleep.  I'll probably have to get to a calmer state of mind before I can do more trials with caffeine.

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## Xanous

I think the majority of my caffeine lucids hsve been DILDs but I keep my WBTB short and usually slip under before the caffeine takes effect. Ill have to try it the other way some time. However,  I think I have WILD once or twice with it.

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## CanisLucidus

That's encouraging.  Maybe I don't need to be so afraid of trying out caffeine if I just go right back to sleep and don't push my luck on WBTB length.

In fact, I've been doing that when I get the chance to take galantamine and it at least seems to be okay.  I mean, if I do the ultra-short WBTB I'm committing to DILD or maybe DEILD, but it's very useful in particular on those nights when I'm just not sure I've got the time for a long, leisurely WBTB like I'd usually prefer.  I DILD most of the time anyway!

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## NyxCC

> Thanks for the review, both of you! Nyx, your chart rocks... and Xanous, thanks for the months of research and knowledge-sharing on caffeine ever since you had such good luck with it last year.
> 
> Nyx, have you found 50mgs to be as effective for you as the larger doses you tried before that resulted in insomnia?



I think my optimal dose is fluctuating between the 35-50mg but as I said it depends on how sleepy I feel. If by chance I have a micro-awakening afterwards and still feel I am too sleepy, I might get another sip or so and then back to bed. I really don't time my wbtbs and they always depend on my mood. Sometimes I just drink the coffee and then straight to bed and miss out, other times I may overshoot and get too excited. Therefore, I think my actions may be influencing the effectiveness in a way, and it's still hard to hit the right spot. At any rate, the 50 mg dose is pretty effective and I don't think I need to increase it, not just because of insomnia, but because I find that higher doses may result in more dream instability. 





> Also, did we ever reach a conclusion on whether caffeine helped as much for DILDs as it does for WILDs? On my G nights, I definitely noticed that it raised the odds of a WILD vs. a DILD by a great deal.



Well, I definitely get more of these from scratch lds, be they wild or dild, i.e. you just start the dream lucid. I am not sure if it is the caffeine or the extended wbtb that does it though. I guess it might be a combination of the two. At any rate, will keep an eye on any trends that may come with caffeine consumption.





> I'd love to experiment more with caffeine, but I'm dealing with major issues getting back to sleep during WBTB at the moment. I have a lot of stuff on my mind that I'm very very excited about all the time and it's making it hard for me to get back to sleep. I'll probably have to get to a calmer state of mind before I can do more trials with caffeine.



I also feel overwhelmed doing wbtbs when there are distracting things from real life that get into the way. Hope things calm down for you soon. It will be great to hear your feedback whenever you are ready to experiment. Sweet dreams!  :smiley:

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## Highlander

> I truly appreciate those few of you that bothered to post here and I have really enjoyed seeing your results. Feel free to continue to post here but I'll no longer be posting my trails. Also, if you have any final thoughts on your experiences I'd love to hear about. Thanks again everyone! 
> *
> LD for life!*



No problem Xanous. Thanks for raising the OP. I think we are glad we could help.  ::bowdown:: 

I had well above average results using 50 mg of Caffeine @ WBTB. I did not really have any insomnia issues as such, providing my WBTB break wasn't too long.

I did have a bit of a 'rush' from when I got up out of bed one morning where my heart rate seemed higher/heavier one time; otherwise I was ok.

I would definitely use it in my regimen again periodically as I always seemed to get good recall and vivid dreams, inc. DILD's.

I also enjoyed reading everybody's accounts during the period too, including your own.  :smiley:

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## CanisLucidus

Very nice, thank you both for the tips!  It's sounding like I should give 50 mg a serious trial.  I had good results with 25-30mg in conjunction with galantamine as a way to induce WILDs (an idea Yuschak put forth in a research paper), so it makes sense to raise the dose a bit higher for a caffeine-only trial.





> I also feel overwhelmed doing wbtbs when there are distracting things from real life that get into the way. Hope things calm down for you soon. It will be great to hear your feedback whenever you are ready to experiment. Sweet dreams!



Thanks, Nyx!  I just happen to have a lot of excitement going on right now, the kind of thing that's very positive but also fills you with nervous energy.  Couple that with a lot of very late nights recently and you can imagine that my basic LD practices could use some work.   :smiley:

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## Xanous

Thanks ya'll. I've got some new ideas to consider now. I like how you're talking about 50mg and less when I am going more 100-200mg range.  ::chuckle::  I guess that's just down to tolerance. 

NyxCC gives some ideas to consider maybe lowering my dose and doing an extra hit in there at some point. I never considered that. Thanks.  ::D: 

BTW the majority of  my WBTBs are usually very brief, especially with LDS unless I am planning to WILD on the start. I know that I will almost always wake at the one hour mark so I initially go for a DILD with SSILD or mantra and THEN WILD or DEILD. I guess it always a time factory for me but It's interesting to see an alternative idea to my method. Very cool ideas. Thanks again.

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## Highlander

^ All hail the  ::bowdown::  X.


I did get a short dild using 50 mg caffeine after a short WBTB this morning.  :smiley: 

Side effects (?) - brief palpitations whilst relaxing.  :Eek:

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## Xanous

> ^ All hail the  X.
> 
> 
> I did get a short dild using 50 mg caffeine after a short WBTB this morning. 
> 
> Side effects (?) - brief palpitations whilst relaxing.



Damn. I guess email notifications are broke. Sorry I didnt see your post sooner. Im glad the caff still works. Congrats  ::D:

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## Eldan

Well i may join this experiment because one of my first Lucid Dreams was when i was really drunk i woke up and went back to bed and had lucidity.
So this may work with coffee too i will try the 50-100mg range report back tommorow in my dream journal what happens, if nothing i will try again and again until i get some information.

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## Xanous

> Well i may join this experiment because one of my first Lucid Dreams was when i was really drunk i woke up and went back to bed and had lucidity.
> So this may work with coffee too i will try the 50-100mg range report back tommorow in my dream journal what happens, if nothing i will try again and again until i get some information.



I'm guessing you didn't have any luck?

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## Xanous

I tried a new form of caffiene last night. My wife bought some chololate covered esspresso beans and didn't like them so I decided to save them for WBTB. I tried figuring the caffiene content of each bean but found conflicting information online. 

So last week I tried just counting the beans to a "lowe dose" (for me anyway) and going from there. I started with a dose of 10 and had really vivid dreams but didn't get lucid or insomnia. OK that sort of worked.

Lastnight I lazily took a hand full and had a nice LD with only very mild wakefullness. I later estimate that I had 15-20 beans but I really wish that I had counted. It's really a interesting idea for using this as trigger giving the added theobromine and caffine in the choloate. I plan to play with this some more some time really soon. I just thought you all would find it fun to try.  ::D:

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## NyxCC

Mmm! Now we have a great excuse to indulge in these!  ::rolllaugh:: 

By the way I had some interesting results with caffeine the other day. 1/3 latte as usual but didn't do a proper wbtb and fell asleep like a log. Had an extraordinarily vivid dream that began on a mountain meadow with amazing bright colored plants and dream grasses, later morphed into zoo, then into a museum where I explored non-lucidly some amazing items and books!  :smiley: 

:heart::sleepysteph:

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## Xanous

Caffeine usually gives me awesome dreams even if I dont get lucid.

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## FryingMan

> Caffeine usually gives me awesome dreams even if I dont get lucid.



OK another substance to add to the experiments!   I'm a total caffeine lightweight so one bean may do it for me  :smiley: .    Interesting though, I thought I  read somewhere that caffeine (even in the afternoon) kills REM in the night.    Not true?     Chocolate coated espresso beans are also easier to explain than a drawer full of bottles of substances in gelcaps next to the bed  :smiley: .

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## Xanous

> I thought I read somewhere that caffeine (even in the afternoon) kills REM in the night. Not true?*



That seems to be the general consensus but to what degree I dont know. Its one of those wierd things that we dont fully understand and it may effect each person differently. Ive always been a regular coffee drinker since I started lucid dreaming,  I dont know if its been a handicap to me or not but I seem to dream enough every night. I just try to keep my caffeine consumption low and nothing after noon. Since you are sensitive I would definitely start with tge smallest amount possible and do it on a night that you can afford to lose sleep; it can cause insomnia if you have too much at a wbtb.

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## Xanous

I ran across some relevant info about caffeine and dreaming that you all may or may not be interested in. This is a quote from The Dream Sourcebook: A Guide To The Theory And Interpretation Of Dreams (second edition)





> *Mood-Altering Substances and Dreams* 
> 
> Though spicy foods and heavy meals late at night have been proven to have no effect on our dreams, there are certain substances that impact our REM sleep, for better or worse. For example, Anthony Sifton reports in The Dream Reader (1995) that "marijuana and cocaine both decrease dream recall." Barbiturate use, he reports, leads to "more conceptual and thoughtlike" dreams. Alcohol, tobacco, and stimulants such as amphetamines ''generally reduce REM time. So do barbiturates,benzodiazepines [such as Valium and Xanax], and most of the sedative-hypnotic sleeping pills, tranquilizers, muscle relaxants, etc.*"Interestingly, caffeine does NOT affect REM sleep unless you are attempting to withdraw from it, in which case you will begin to dream more. "That is the effect of withdrawal from any stimulant,"* Sifton writes, noting that it is unclear whether stress is a factor in increasing the number of dreams.
> 
> As for prescription medications, their effects, too, can vary. ''Some mood stabilizing drugs, such as lithium, reduce REM sleep, as do some antidepressants," writes Sifton. "Antipsychotic drugs have mixed effects on sleep. Stelazine, Haldol, and Tegretol are said to reduce dream recall, but effects vary with dosage, and during drug withdrawal REM time decreases."



Most of this info seem accurate but I wonder about the caffeine mention. Are they testing that from a recent dose or daily consumption? It seems the context is from daily consumption as Sifton is talking about withdraw.  It's news to me that caffeine doesn't affect REM negatively (although not surprising) but we all know what WBTB caffeine does for dreaming from personal experience anyway. Also, it does seem to confirm that caffeine induce dreams work best from withdrawal whether or not you ingest caffeine at WBTB. It would be interesting to see how much effect there is from withdrawal alone. Perhaps I should start a new thread: "Withdrawal As A Trigger."  ::chuckle:: 

*TLDR; maybe that will answer the question for FryingMan! According to this caffeine doesn't have negative effects on dreaming but if you go into withdrawal if could increase it... Possibly increasing exponentially when combined with withdrawal and a small WBTB dose! 
*

Also I'm not sure I agree with the tobacco statement unless, again, they are speaking of daily use. That's probably the case since this book isn't about LDS.

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