# Lucid Dreaming > General Lucid Discussion >  >  OOBE's proved wrong

## lvlindless

http://youtube.com/watch?v=714AS39CQ_I

I knew it, there's no such thing as Near Death or Out of Body experiences.

Apparently all they are, are extremely vivid and dreamlike delusional  hallucinations due to nutrient and blood loss from the brain. So... the ultimate lucid dreams.

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## Swank

Try searching for 'God Proved Wrong' videos. Im sure theres a few also

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## Mes Tarrant

Yeah I completely agree with that video.  ::o:  It was a little disturbing to see all those people pass out though.

And anyway, it's even called "near" death experiences. That's all they are. They aren't called "death experiences after which people have been brought back to life."

Meh I'm tired.

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## tekkendreams

my very first LD was an OBE and it scared the fkn shit out of me

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## Sivason

Think, you can not PROVE lucid dreams exist! I defy you to prove lucid dreams exist! If you believe in something that outlandish why doubt those who say they do have OOBE?

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## Mes Tarrant

> Think, you can not PROVE lucid dreams exist! I defy you to prove lucid dreams exist! If you believe in something that outlandish why doubt those who say they do have OOBE?



Actually you can show that you can be given a task and remember to do that task once you are asleep. LaBerge did experiments where he made up some eye movement patterns for his subjects to do, and they remembered to do them once they were asleep. He was able to see their physical eyes move in those patterns while the subject was asleep.

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## Swank

> Actually you can show that you can be given a task and remember to do that task once you are asleep. LaBerge did experiments where he made up some eye movement patterns for his subjects to do, and they remembered to do them once they were asleep. He was able to see their physical eyes move in those patterns while the subject was asleep.



 Correct!

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## lvlindless

> Actually you can show that you can be given a task and remember to do that task once you are asleep. LaBerge did experiments where he made up some eye movement patterns for his subjects to do, and they remembered to do them once they were asleep. He was able to see their physical eyes move in those patterns while the subject was asleep.



Yup, LDs are scientifically proven. HA! OBE's do happen, but they're not really... out of body. Same with NDE's.

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## jamous

> http://youtube.com/watch?v=714AS39CQ_I
> 
> I knew it, there's no such thing as Near Death or Out of Body experiences.
> 
> Apparently all they are, are extremely vivid and dreamlike delusional  hallucinations due to nutrient and blood loss from the brain. So... the ultimate lucid dreams.



weird I just used that term ultimate lucid dream..

anyway, sounds like science proved that OBEs do exist

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## jamous

and anyway, just like God just being in our brains... it's all stupid, because just because science shows that there is a scientific explanation it doesn't mean God or out-of-body experiences don't have spiritual relevence... duh?

OBEs aren't proof of the afterlife and they are like dreams, but I believe both could have spiritual significance

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## jamous

Penn and Teller are hypocrites too...
they say people bank off of OBE accounts, but they're the ones "out to make a buck", making a big pretentious statement that OBEs are "BULLSHIT". Because they know it means something to people, and it doesn't to them (because they half think it) and they profit off the big stink of "debunking spirituality".

These guys make athiests look really bad.

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## lvlindless

> Penn and Teller are hypocrites too...
> they say people bank off of OBE accounts, but they're the ones "out to make a buck", making a big pretentious statement that OBEs are "BULLSHIT". Because they know it means something to people, and it doesn't to them (because they half think it) and they profit off the big stink of "debunking spirituality".
> 
> These guys make athiests look really bad.



They have to pay the bills too

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## LucidFlanders

Funny how people think they know what's supposed to happen when you die, and what's not supposed to happen. ::rolleyes::  They have never died before, what do they know? I call "Bullshit" on his "Bullshit" unless he's actually died.

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## Mes Tarrant

> Funny how people think they know what's supposed to happen when you die, and what's not supposed to happen. They have never died before, what do they know? I call "Bullshit" on his "Bullshit" unless he's actually died.



He doesn't need to die himself to prove these people wrong  ::?:  He's not trying to show what is on "the other side", rather what happens to us when we're barely alive.

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## Sivason

PROVE to me that man did not lie about his experiment. Prove to me he did not know the pattern his subjects eyes allways move in sleep and fake his results. PROVE to me that lucid dreams exist? It can not be done. PROVE to me that because near death, sufficated people see visions like OBE that they did not in fact have them or that the one thing (thier visions) disprove the possibilty of another. I think people who want to yell OBE does not exist honestly just want the world to fit thier own relious beliefs.

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## Mes Tarrant

> PROVE to me that man did not lie about his experiment. Prove to me he did not know the pattern his subjects eyes allways move in sleep and fake his results. PROVE to me that lucid dreams exist? It can not be done. PROVE to me that because near death, sufficated people see visions like OBE that they did not in fact have them or that the one thing (thier visions) disprove the possibilty of another. I think people who want to yell OBE does not exist honestly just want the world to fit thier own relious beliefs.



And obviously you have a set of beliefs which are threatened by this video.

As for proving lucid dreaming, read my previous post.

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## Sivason

Honestly I try not to believe anything too much. I would make a cruddy member of any church. I have not seen the experiment or the OBE video. I have had what seemed to be OBE, but maybe it was just a weird lucid dream? I can buy that. No need to prove lucid dreams, just being a dumb ass, you know. Like the first post says, proof does not exist for science dorks like me. I would like to ask anyone who actually cares if OBE does not exist, if this does have something to do with religion? Honest question, hoping for honest answer. Is this thread here because some people feel OBE experiance can not be real due to thier religiuos beliefs???

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## spiritofthewolf

all i can say is im a believer in God and in Jesus Christ.. There is going to be a place where we go after we die.. and about near death experiences.. I know a guy (family friend) and he is in the record books at some Chicago hospital because he was clinically dead (there were priests and family members by his bed side) and he came back alive.. now if that isnt near death, then i dont know what is....

spiritofthewolf

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## lvlindless

> all i can say is im a believer in God and in Jesus Christ.. There is going to be a place where we go after we die.. and about near death experiences.. I know a guy (family friend) and he is in the record books at some Chicago hospital because he was clinically dead (there were priests and family members by his bed side) and he came back alive.. now if that isnt near death, then i dont know what is....
> 
> spiritofthewolf



Medical advances these days can do wonders. I don't want to get into a religious argument, because that would take up 50 pages, but all I'm saying is...

1) Lucid dreams have been scientifically proven. That means they are fact, regardless of your opinion.

2) OBEs and NDAs haven't been proven or disproven, but the scientists experiments lead to a pretty strong hypothesis that they're in your head rather than your "soul" physically leaving your body.

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## Sivason

Hmmm,,, with out getting into a religous 50 page thing,,, can you tell me if your own disbief has something to do with religion. Not what is proven, just yopur reason for caring?

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## Mes Tarrant

> Honestly I try not to believe anything too much. I would make a cruddy member of any church. I have not seen the experiment or the OBE video. I have had what seemed to be OBE, but maybe it was just a weird lucid dream? I can buy that. No need to prove lucid dreams, just being a dumb ass, you know. Like the first post says, proof does not exist for science dorks like me. I would like to ask anyone who actually cares if OBE does not exist, if this does have something to do with religion? Honest question, hoping for honest answer. Is this thread here because some people feel OBE experiance can not be real due to thier religiuos beliefs???



Is this the question you mentioned in the other thread?

Honestly, I personally don't care if OBEs do or do not exist. They aren't part of my life and I'm not particularly religious. I didn't place this thread here, so I can't answer the second one. But I'm pretty sure it was started because someone happened on some evidence that looked convincing and wanted to share it.

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## lvlindless

> Hmmm,,, with out getting into a religous 50 page thing,,, can you tell me if your own disbief has something to do with religion. Not what is proven, just yopur reason for caring?



Nah, it's got nothing to do with my religious beliefs. I just always found it kinda silly that OBEs and NDEs existed. It seemed way too far fetched, like you leave your body and fly up to heaven for a short while! Or you leave your body in the physical plane and wander around. Weeee!

I'm an atheist anyway, I just don't much care for religions.

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## Torcher

if reality is all quantum anyway then we haven't existed yet and this is a dream someone else is having and they don't exist either. You are a delusion, a mere hallucination of an hallucination. Enjoy your stay!

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## LucidFlanders

> Medical advances these days can do wonders. I don't want to get into a religious argument, because that would take up 50 pages, but all I'm saying is...
> 
> 1) Lucid dreams have been scientifically proven. That means they are fact, regardless of your opinion.
> 
> *2) OBEs and NDAs haven't been proven or disproven, but the scientists experiments lead to a pretty strong hypothesis that they're in your head rather than your "soul" physically leaving your body.*




Also how would you prove it's your soul leaving your body, then your head? first..you will have to know what a soul is made of if there is 1, and
 then you will have to understand the functions of it wouldn't you? the Brain seems more likely because we know the brain...not the soul and how it would work with the body.
 For all we know all the things happening can be part of the soul or something. Also, with the critics they will go out of their way to disprove the soul and shove asmuch scientific crap down our throats even if 
the soul "somehow" gets proven which i got to say...it will be a LONG time if ever. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack. Neurons, and whatever else drives us to see these illusions/feel the things we do can be
 all normal things. We understand it but not every inch of detail and because the body reacts the way it does to these things doesn't mean they are fake illusions, maybe they are part of the whole thing. 

What would be the point in given a soul for the body if you cannot use the body to go whererever it is we go? or function to get to the places if you wish?
 Maybe it is an illusion and there really is nothing and life is really a mistake. 1 life and nothing after would obviously mean we are a mistake..there is no point to even exist especially if you die at or just after birth because the rest of the time it is nothingness from something forever.

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## Sivason

Alot of people have dreams where they precive other entities, like another lucid dreamer. They PRECIEVE that they are playing games with other groups of dreamers. I have those kind of dreams. Do the people who don't believe in OBE then think this is just fantasy created in the minds of dreamers. I sure have an elaborate set of long term relationships with some of these dreamers. OR LET ME SAY... I have precieved for years that many dreamers can share a common dream. Do any of you think this is just a very complex hallucination or overwhelmingly detailed self delusion?> Is it not related to OBE? I mean can shared dreams exist while OBE do not?

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## lvlindless

> Also how would you prove it's your soul leaving your body, then your head? first..you will have to know what a soul is made of if there is 1, and
>  then you will have to understand the functions of it wouldn't you? the Brain seems more likely because we know the brain...not the soul and how it would work with the body.
>  For all we know all the things happening can be part of the soul or something. Also, with the critics they will go out of their way to disprove the soul and shove asmuch scientific crap down our throats even if 
> the soul "somehow" gets proven which i got to say...it will be a LONG time if ever. It's like looking for a needle in a haystack. Neurons, and whatever else drives us to see these illusions/feel the things we do can be
>  all normal things. We understand it but not every inch of detail and because the body reacts the way it does to these things doesn't mean they are fake illusions, maybe they are part of the whole thing. 
> 
> What would be the point in given a soul for the body if you cannot use the body to go whererever it is we go? or function to get to the places if you wish?
>  Maybe it is an illusion and there really is nothing and life is really a mistake. 1 life and nothing after would obviously mean we are a mistake..there is no point to even exist especially if you die at or just after birth because the rest of the time it is nothingness from something forever.



So you're saying it's your brain leaving your body instead of your soul? Well, that doesn't really make sense because other people would see your brain floating around. Something would have to leave your body, and if your brain left your body I think your head would become split open. lol

I don't believe in souls, ghosts, miracles, or anything that cannot be logically explained through scientific methods. LDs I fully believe in because I've had them. If miracles could happen, why hasn't a severed arm ever grown back? I'd love to see that.

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## Keeper

I know people are getting tired of this argument, but remember, a caveman could tell you that he has irrefutable scientific proof that the world is flat.

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## Torcher

I don't see why people get so riled up at the idea of existence outside the body. Loss of control? God's punishment? I'll blame religion on this one.

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## Sivason

see my last post. If OBE does not exist is shared dreaming possible? Or would it also be just imagination inside your own head, no matter how real it seems?

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## lvlindless

> see my last post. If OBE does not exist is shared dreaming possible? Or would it also be just imagination inside your own head, no matter how real it seems?



I've had tons of LDs where I was with someone from real life, and I actually thought it was them. I then realized we might be dream sharing, so I did a few things to see if they would remember it.

One day I woke up after a dream share with my mom, and realized she had been at work for the entire time I had been dreaming. So it was all in my head.

I'd like to think dream sharing is possible, but very very very unlikely. Anything's possible until proven right or wrong.

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## Sivason

I have had the same thing before. Honestly beliving I met a family member only to realize they where awake at that time. I do however think I may be seeing other dreamers as my family, in forms familiar to me. I also run into the same DCs over and over who tell me they are real, they control the dream more than me even if I am 'god lucid' when I do not have the shared dream experiance. HMMM, if this is a 10+ year hoax my brain is pulling (and it just may be, who knows) it sure is cool that the brain could trick me like that and keep it up. Brains are so cool.

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## dodobird

> PROVE to me that man did not lie about his experiment. Prove to me he did not know the pattern his subjects eyes allways move in sleep and fake his results. PROVE to me that lucid dreams exist? It can not be done.



Why should we prove it to you?
If you don't believe it read the articles and research on the subject, instead of just asking others to prove it for you. And if you aren't satisfied, than conduct experiments yourself. 
Existence of LDs can be proved by asking people to move their eyes in a certain way while they are LDing, and making sure they are really asleep by checking their brainwave frequency.

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## iadr

What difference does it make whether an OBE is really an out of body experience, or whether it is just an extremely vivid lucid dream?

And who cares if someone else doesn't believe in them? That doesn't make them any more unreal to people who experience them.

The point is they are a lot of fun, and are much more vivid than a normal lucid dream.

Although some near death experiences may be nothing more than a very vivid dream or something a person is imagining, I think it would be a little hard to refute someone who actually left their body and then hovered over their body and watched what happened to their body while they were dead for a brief time, and who are later able to explain to other people what they saw happening.

The first time I came tumbling back into my body after having been out of it, and the first time I woke up to find myself floating above my body and being conscious of both my spirit which was floating above my body, and at same time being conscious of my body which was laying in the bed, was all I needed to be convinced that I am more than a body, and that a spirit does indeed exist on the inside of me which is capable of leaving my body at times.

I wouldn't expect someone who has never experienced an OBE to believe in them. The fact that they choose to limit their beliefs and the possiblities of what they might be able to accomplish by believing something like that is their own business. 

I certainly won't allow their limited beliefs to limit me on what I am capable of accomplishing myself.

If I wanted to learn something about astral projection or having an out of body experience, I would be wanting to read a book by someone like Sylvan Muldoon, Robert Monroe, or Robert Bruce, who has experienced it, instead of listening to a couple of comics who don't know anything about it, and are able to present only a very weak and pathetic argument about its non-existence.

And as far as that video goes, I think the first word of the video BULLSHIT pretty well describes the video.  

I'd be more inclined to believe the people in the video describing their near death experiences than anything the two clowns who made up this video are trying to prove, because I see absolutely no proof that they offered that OBE's don't exist, as it is very possible that the people who passed out while riding the simulator ended up out of their bodies when they passed out.

Where is the proof?  This video is pure BULLSHIT!  They no more proved that OBE's don't exist than the people describing their experiences proved that they do exist.

People can believe whatever they wish, because it really makes no difference whether they are an OBE or an extremly vivid dream. Whatever they are, they happen, and the people who experience them are usually moved by them.

It is interesting that a person can experience a near death type of experience by riding around and around in one of those simulators until they pass out.  This might just be one of the safest and most reliable ways for a person to experience an obe or near death experience.  I wonder how long it will take someone to start marketing this, and advertising it as a near death experience ride?  Before long every amusement park may have one of these rides.  I want one right here in my house.  What an awesome idea.  I wonder how dangerous it would be for someone to do this on a regular basis?

Meanwhile, until I can afford one of these for my own house, I may start experimenting with riding in something like this in my imagination when I go to bed at night to see if I can produce my own obe or near death experience.

Thanks for posting the link lvlindless.  Although I consider their arguments to be pure BULLSHIT, it has at least given me some great ideas on how to have more obe's myself.

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## KuRoSaKi

This doesn't really prove much in my opinion. It's a best guess at what happens. I mean blood leaving brain etc. causing hallucinations okay yeah, but as for other things.... I mean yeah I am still considering it as a possibility.

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## LucidFlanders

> So you're saying it's your brain leaving your body instead of your soul? Well, that doesn't really make sense because other people would see your brain floating around. Something would have to leave your body, and if your brain left your body I think your head would become split open. lol
> 
> I don't believe in souls, ghosts, miracles, or anything that cannot be logically explained through scientific methods. LDs I fully believe in because I've had them. If miracles could happen, why hasn't a severed arm ever grown back? I'd love to see that.



No, i am saying we have no idea what the right functions are working for OBE. The brain and the soul can have the same working functions in the body leading to OBE. Scientists say it's not the soul, but they have no idea what is a soul and what functions the body has with the soul. Neurons? they rule that out and think it's just the body. It cannot be the soul's functions with the body to them. Fact is no side can prove anything no matter what they say and the evidence that is thrown.

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## jamous

Just because there is a physiological explanation doesn't mean there isn't spiritual relevance in near death situations.
I agree it is essentially a dream or hallucination, but I think dreams and hallucinations might have great meaning.
It's just like somebody believing evolution means no God or God means no evolution.
Why can't people make the connection of science and spirituality.
Where theres physical there is also spiritual. Somehow it just doesn't make sense to just have one or the other. "Hallucination" is the scientific word for the religious "vision". We just call them visions when they have significant meaning or prophecy.

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## Scatterbrain

> Penn and Teller are hypocrites too...
> they say people bank off of OBE accounts, but they're the ones "out to make a buck", making a big pretentious statement that OBEs are "BULLSHIT". Because they know it means something to people, and it doesn't to them (because they half think it) and they profit off the big stink of "debunking spirituality".
> 
> These guys make athiests look really bad.



Indeed.

I don't have a formed opinion in this matter but when I want scientific research I'll ask real scientists, instead of getting my answers from some pseudo-intellectual illusionists.

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## Marvo

That's doesn't really prove OBEs and NDE wrong, but it proves those certain situations wrong, in the film.

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## Mes Tarrant

> Alot of people have dreams where they precive other entities, like another lucid dreamer. They PRECIEVE that they are playing games with other groups of dreamers. I have those kind of dreams. Do the people who don't believe in OBE then think this is just fantasy created in the minds of dreamers. I sure have an elaborate set of long term relationships with some of these dreamers. OR LET ME SAY... I have precieved for years that many dreamers can share a common dream. Do any of you think this is just a very complex hallucination or overwhelmingly detailed self delusion?> Is it not related to OBE? I mean can shared dreams exist while OBE do not?



There are a lot of topics on shared dreaming on this forum, you can use the search function to find them. Suffice it to say that the majority of people here don't believe in them, or at least are very very skeptical.

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## lvlindless

> It is interesting that a person can experience a near death type of experience by riding around and around in one of those simulators until they pass out.  This might just be one of the safest and most reliable ways for a person to experience an obe or near death experience.  I wonder how long it will take someone to start marketing this, and advertising it as a near death experience ride?  Before long every amusement park may have one of these rides.  I want one right here in my house.  What an awesome idea.  I wonder how dangerous it would be for someone to do this on a regular basis?



I believe those were dis-continued. They're not very good for your brain, and could mess you up.

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## Bear

> I believe those were dis-continued. They're not very good for your brain, and could mess you up.



Centrifuges like that aren't really dangerous as long as you're medically monitored, and medically fit to go in one.  In a military setting, there are flight surgeons around to make sure everything goes ok.  I can see them not being like a carnival ride, mostly for liability reasons.

On topic:  This video is a good explanation of NDEs, and I personally believe it, but it's not PROOF.  Unfortunately, for those who truly believe in this, nobody will ever be able to provide sufficient proof they don't exist.  

I love this "you can't prove it doesn't exist........ therefore it does!!!" mentality, where the believers' strongest claim for legitimacy is lack of absolute proof (that's impossible to get) that they're wrong. 

Every night I dream because a purple unicorn leaps out of my nose and whispers in my ear.  This happens to everyone.  And oh yeah, I'm the only one that's able to perceive the purple nose unicorns because I have a unique paranormal gift.  Prove me wrong!!!!!

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## transtate

why do people dismiss these obes and near death experience...have they never looked further beyond there nose. do they not understand that we are living on a lump of rock spinning in space that goes on forever.so they made someone have a nde by messing with there brain,how does that prove its only a dream,how do they know that what they done to the brain was a way of unlocking the door to whatever happens when we die, who knows?

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## LucidFlanders

It's their opinion on what they believe, just like your opinion on believing OBE/NDE's. I'm glad people doubt it...what kind of world would we live in if everyone believed in everything everyone else believed in? The fact is, when we are dead for good we will know if all of this is true, or not. Or we wont because you will be nothingness.

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## BillyBob

Talk talk talk.
It doesn't do anything on this subject. Your wasting your time and lives.


If you believe in OOBEs then thats fine, have fun being a superhuman that can see any event of your choosing whenever you feel like it.

If you don't believe in OOBEs then too bad for you I guess, your just going to have to live in this shitty little unexciting place we call real life. Have fun.

_________________________________

*People that can OOBE:* why the hell do you care if we don't believe you? In your mind your better than us anyway, while we sit around and tell ourselves that our world is a little predicable piece of horse dung you get to fly around in outerspace _really_ exploring new worlds and species.
The last thing you should be worried about is whether or not some ignorant hypocrites believe that what your doing is real.

*People that don't believe:* Quit bitching about how OOBEs are bullshit. You believe they're bullshit? Great, good for you. In your opinion all these "idiots" who believe that OOBEs are real are like children. Your soooo much better then them, you aren't a crazy person that believes everything they perceive.
Be happy of that fact. If someone your talking to tells you that they believe in OOBEs then just tell them why you don't and leave it at that.

We all have our own beliefs, I believe that OOBEs could be possible but not very likely.
Why do I believe this? Because I don't think I'd be very happy if I believed what everything I've ever known is telling me: 
We're just a bunch of self-aware biological machines that are going to stop taking in information someday --We're all just going to die. No pretty lights, no infinite bliss. Just blackness and total unconsciousness.



We all have to find our own ways to cope with death. Lets all just let one another believe whatever the hell we want.
Of course, that shouldn't stop you from telling other WHY you believe what you believe. Just remember that these belief systems are what keep us from commiting suicide on a daily basis. They're pretty much completely ingrained into the core of our mind.
Its not very likely I'm going to start believing we all go to Disneyland when we die just because some two year old told me so.

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## iadr

> It is interesting that a person can experience a near death type of experience by riding around and around in one of those simulators until they pass out.  This might just be one of the safest and most reliable ways for a person to experience an obe or near death experience.  I wonder how long it will take someone to start marketing this, and advertising it as a near death experience ride?  Before long every amusement park may have one of these rides.  I want one right here in my house.  What an awesome idea.  I wonder how dangerous it would be for someone to do this on a regular basis?
> 
> Meanwhile, until I can afford one of these for my own house, I may start experimenting with riding in something like this in my imagination when I go to bed at night to see if I can produce my own obe or near death experience.



You guys did know I was joking about this didn't you?  ::D:  All except the last part of possibly trying to produce something like this in my imagination when I go to bed at night.

Like Bear said, the liability would be far to great for something like this to ever become a carnival ride.  Although I would not put it past some ambitious entrepreneur to try to market something like this on a smaller scale where they would charge people an outrageous fee, and then make them sign a waver releasing their company from any liability. 

Although I wonder how many people would really be interested in it, as unless a person was in pretty good physically condition something like this could just end up making them really sick.

Better just to create something like this in ones imagination.  I have heard of people imagining themselves riding on a roller coaster before to help them exit their body, but have never had any luck with that myself.

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## LucidFlanders

> Just blackness and total unconsciousness.



Nah, not even blackness. Just nothingness. It will be like before you remembered everything...before you first became aware it was all nothingness, after death it will continue being that if that's true. First thought i am aware of i was looking in a mirror and saying i can tie my shoelace at age 4. Before that it was nothing. It's obviously hard to explain but you get the picture. Anyway that's just 1 possability.

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## Oneironaut Zero

> Actually you can show that you can be given a task and remember to do that task once you are asleep. LaBerge did experiments where he made up some eye movement patterns for his subjects to do, and they remembered to do them once they were asleep. He was able to see their physical eyes move in those patterns while the subject was asleep.



I'm going to play Devil's advocate, here, because I've thought about this one, a time or two.

Were I a biased skeptic of something like lucid dreaming, and fought against the nature of it being possible, as many people fight against the possibility of many "paranormal" things, I would say something like:

"The fact that they could move their eyes in a pre-conceived sequence proves nothing!! They were told what kind of pattern to move their eyes in, and they've focused so much on that pattern, or held that pattern so predominately, even subconsciously, that it happened, automatically, within their dream state. It is nothing more than a form of auto-suggestion! It was an unconscious response to all of their time thinking about the experiment, while still awake!!"

I really have no vested interest in whether or not OOBE's are real or not, and I'm not trying to contradict you. You and I both know how real lucid dreaming is, in the way that only the person experiencing them, at the time, can truly know. The main reason I brought it up is because this is something that I'd recently thought about, and wondered what others might think about that concept.  :smiley:

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## Marvo

One, yes, but if one is to think that way, pretty much all proof in the universe can be debunked, someway.

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## Mes Tarrant

> "The fact that they could move their eyes in a pre-conceived sequence proves nothing!! They were told what kind of pattern to move their eyes in, and they've focused so much on that pattern, or held that pattern so predominately, even subconsciously, that it happened, automatically, within their dream state. It is nothing more than a form of auto-suggestion! It was an unconscious response to all of their time thinking about the experiment, while still awake!!"



I've thought about that too, but, I can't really imagine how it would be possible for someone to remember a (fairly) complex pattern while not conscious in the dream state. You would have to just happen to be having a dream where LaBerge is telling you to do this.. 

Em, I know what I am trying to say but I'm having a hard time putting it into words. I guess also for something like that to be ingrained into your subconscious so that you could perform the act while not lucid, you would have to be thinking about it for days upon days.. and that wasn't the case for the test subjects.

----------


## Oneironaught

> So... the ultimate lucid dreams.



It sounds good but remember, a lucid dream is a dream in which you are aware that you are dreaming. In an "OBE", the person having the experience thinks they are actually outside of their body. They don't believe themselves to be dreaming at all.

----------


## BillyBob

> I've thought about that too, but, I can't really imagine how it would be possible for someone to remember a (fairly) complex pattern while not conscious in the dream state. You would have to just happen to be having a dream where LaBerge is telling you to do this.. 
> 
> Em, I know what I am trying to say but I'm having a hard time putting it into words. I guess also for something like that to be ingrained into your subconscious so that you could perform the act while not lucid, you would have to be thinking about it for days upon days.. and that wasn't the case for the test subjects.



I too thought about this the first time I read LaBerge's book.

I came to the conclusion that that experiment proved nothing.
So maybe it is very unlikely that one would remember a sequence of eye movements in a dreamstate. So what? That doesn't prove that its impossible in any way.


I'd have to say that if I were a skeptic and had never had a lucid experience this "evidence" would crumble pretty much instantly before my logical mind's methods of deduction.
Its actually a pretty shoddy excuse for proof if ever I've seen one.

You can't really prove or disprove lucid dreaming though, its just impossible (with todays scientific instruments)
Much like OOBEs.

----------


## Mes Tarrant

> I too thought about this the first time I read LaBerge's book.
> 
> I came to the conclusion that that experiment proved nothing.
> So maybe it is very unlikely that one would remember a sequence of eye movements in a dreamstate. So what? That doesn't prove that its impossible in any way.
> 
> 
> I'd have to say that if I were a skeptic and had never had a lucid experience this "evidence" would crumble pretty much instantly before my logical mind's methods of deduction.
> Its actually a pretty shoddy excuse for proof if ever I've seen one.
> 
> ...



He must have done it somehow. I mean you're probably not the first person to question it, and I'm sure people questioned him when he did these experiments, but I mean he was allowed to do a PhD on this. Hmm I really don't know, but I should find out more about this.

----------


## BillyBob

> He must have done it somehow. I mean you're probably not the first person to question it, and I'm sure people questioned him when he did these experiments, but I mean he was allowed to do a PhD on this. Hmm I really don't know, but I should find out more about this.



I just thought about it a bit more in-depth.
it would be a little harder to disregard the eye movements as random if they corresponded precisely with a radical change in brainwave patterns (lucidity)

I never read this exactly, although I believe he said in the book that the subjects were to make the eye movements the moment they got lucid.


That still wouldn't "prove" anything though. Like I said earlier: its impossible to prove (completely and totally) anything to do with the mind at this point...

----------


## Mes Tarrant

> I just thought about it a bit more in-depth.
> it would be a little harder to disregard the eye movements as random if they corresponded precisely with a radical change in brainwave patterns (lucidity)
> 
> I never read this exactly, although I believe he said in the book that the subjects were to make the eye movements the moment they got lucid.
> 
> 
> That still wouldn't "prove" anything though. Like I said earlier: its impossible to prove (completely and totally) anything to do with the mind at this point...



That's true. So then I guess all we can do is focus on what can and can't be _shown._

----------


## thegnome54

> We all have to find our own ways to cope with death. Lets all just let one another believe whatever the hell we want.
> Of course, that shouldn't stop you from telling other WHY you believe what you believe. Just remember that these belief systems are what keep us from commiting suicide on a daily basis. They're pretty much completely ingrained into the core of our mind.



I would be perfectly fine with innocent, happifying theories which did nothing more than keep people from defenestration.  The problem arises when these theories are jeopardized by the tireless advance of scientific knowledge.  You're certainly right about them being ingrained in the core of our minds.  This sort of thing becomes a big problem when people begin to grasp at straws, trying to twist the world every which way in order to maintain their fairy tale happy endings.  Granted, we are at a point right now where very little can conclusively be said about the mind, but this brand of stubborn, faith-based reasoning has done nothing but harm in the past.  I, for one, will continue to endeavor to keep people from becoming _too_ convinced of their happifying theories, no matter what they may be.  So long as an element of doubt is maintained, all is well.  But one can't help but talk, talk, talk when people run around claiming to know the unknowable - for sure.

----------


## BillyBob

> I would be perfectly fine with innocent, happifying theories which did nothing more than keep people from defenestration.  The problem arises when these theories are jeopardized by the tireless advance of scientific knowledge.  You're certainly right about them being ingrained in the core of our minds.  This sort of thing becomes a big problem when people begin to grasp at straws, trying to twist the world every which way in order to maintain their fairy tale happy endings.  Granted, we are at a point right now where very little can conclusively be said about the mind, but this brand of stubborn, faith-based reasoning has done nothing but harm in the past.  I, for one, will continue to endeavor to keep people from becoming _too_ convinced of their happifying theories, no matter what they may be.  So long as an element of doubt is maintained, all is well.  But one can't help but talk, talk, talk when people run around claiming to know the unknowable - for sure.



But are you really helping once you get into the area of flame wars?

Its perfectly fine to state your hypothesis on why you personally feel your view is the correct one and what you find to be faults of logic in their judgment of "the truth"
The problem is when it gets into name calling and telling the other person that he or she is a moron just because so far what they've witnessed in their reality hasn't yet shown them the truth that you've personally found (maybe it never will).


Your never going change someones opinion of whats true and whats not by laughing at them and telling them they're stupid just because they believe what they do.
You change opinions by politely stating every possible morsel of obvious logical truth and letting them go over it themselves and figure it out on their own.

Maybe they don't figure it out even after you tell them everything... You've planted a seed that may or may not blossom in the future when they hear this argument again.
People don't change they're views of reality very easily or quickly. Chances are I'm not going to read a post (no matter how flawlessly intelligent and obvious it makes it that I'm an idiot for believing what I do) and suddenly completely change my outlook on reality. It just doesn't happen.
(Just like I bet you were scoffing the whole time you were reading this  :wink2: )

----------


## lvlindless

Come on guys, LDs have been proven.

The brainwave machines showed Laberge's brain when in REM sleep and he carried out a select few eye movements that he and the scientists agreed on. That basically means it's proven. He'd have to have a conscious grip in his dreams to even remember to do that.

I've had LDs and I know without a doubt that they are real. They're FAR different from normal dreams, and far more intense. I'd say they're more intense than real life itself.

----------


## thegnome54

> Your never going change someones opinion of whats true and whats not by laughing at them and telling them they're stupid just because they believe what they do.
> You change opinions by politely stating every possible morsel of obvious logical truth and letting them go over it themselves and figure it out on their own.



I completely agree, mindless ad hominem arguments are useless (though sometimes fun) in the long run.  I'm just saying that I don't think we should stop _discussing_ the issue at any point, or let people think they've found the ultimate answer without at least challenging them a bit.

----------


## iadr

> Anything's possible until proven right or wrong.



That was a very good point you made about lucid dreaming vlindless, and the same can be said about oobe's.

It is best to keep an open mind about something if possible, as it will make it more achievable if it turns out to be true.

As far as the video goes, I think it did more to prove oobe's than to disprove them, as I think that it is more likely the near death experiences the people experienced were probably caused by oobe's due to the movement they were experiencing rather than just a lack of blood or oxygen to the brain.

The reason I say that is that people pass out all the time without having near death experiences. But take a ride in a very topsy turvy carnival ride similar to the thing used in the experiement and you can feel like a part of you gets left behind. 

So that ride is probably very conducive to producing an oobe. And if it doesn't do that it could certainly make a person feel like they left part of themselves like their astral body, back on the ride.

It just makes sense that if people have spirits which live on in a different dimension after their physical body dies, and I've had enough experiences with people who have passed on to believe this myself, that it might be possible for those same spirits to sometimes escape their physical body before they die, or in cases where they maybe do die for a short time and then come back to life.

I've been able to prove to myself that oobe's exist because I've visited people who were later able to verify that I visited them, and that's all I care about.

----------


## jamous

> They have to pay the bills too



Penn and Teller? They don't _need_ any more money. Not that they don't have a right or anything. 

They are just major hypocrites.

----------


## thegnome54

> It just makes sense that if people have spirits which live on in a different dimension after their physical body dies, and I've had enough experiences with people who have passed on to believe this myself, that it might be possible for those same spirits to sometimes escape their physical body before they die, or in cases where they maybe do die for a short time and then come back to life.



Yes, but that's a HUGE 'if'.  Souls and spirits and other such notions arise from complete ignorance of the processes which go on in the human brain.  Once one delves into any amount of detail of the inner workings of the human brain, and the ways in which they can malfunction, it becomes painfully clear that we are naught but biological machines, like all other forms of life.

----------


## Sornaensis

> all i can say is im a believer in God and in Jesus Christ.. There is going to be a place where we go after we die.. and about near death experiences.. I know a guy (family friend) and he is in the record books at some Chicago hospital because he was *clinically dead* (there were priests and family members by his bed side) and he came back alive.. now if that isnt near death, then i dont know what is....
> 
> spiritofthewolf



Clinically Dead :
The cease of breathing and bloodflow to vital organs.

 ::?:  Umm... Wtf?

If he was "Clinically Dead" then he didn't die. This is like the difference between a tKO and a KO, one, you don't get up before the referee gets to ten, the second, you are literally unconcious. See the difference? 

Clinical death can be remedied by a sudden consentration of synapses throughout the body, these synapses act as alternators, and re-start sensory organs. These synapses can be so powerful, they cause hallucenations (e.g "tunnel of light", and "Old friends & family long gone"). So, you didn't die, you went into sleep mode. If you had died, there would be no more brain synapses. So, your friend didn't die, he merely shut off for a second  :wink2: .

----------


## Kromoh

> These guys make athiests look really bad.



Actually, they make athEIsts look good. No religion ever had such a strong message of love.


Being clinically dead doesn't mean you're actually dead. Clinical death was just a "line" doctors made in order to make thinsg easier.

Theoretically, during a heart transplant, you go clinically dead for a few moments (you lose your heart after all) and then bam you're alive again.



And finally, shared dreaming is all ignorance imho. It's easy to meet a DC in a dream and believe you did actually share your dreams with someone. I dare you to prove this scientifically, by telling the other dreaming something and then asking him/her what you told him/her.

Do that (which of course has already been tried by many people, and yet we see no positive result so far) and you'll have proven shared dreaming true. Or maybe just an extreme coincidence, we never know.

----------


## skysaw

Here's what I don't understand.

The film shows quite clearly that an occurrence that is completely non-mystical/spiritual in nature can give the experience that has been labeled a "near-death" experience. Nobody on this thread has attempted to dispute this; it is quite clear the study participants had similar experiences. 

Even if this is not iron-clad evidence that NDEs do not exist, it quite adequately demonstrates that any experience _thought_ to be a NDE _might not_ be spiritual in nature, but could have a much more mundane explanation. In other words, it proves that the spiritual interpretation of NDEs cannot be proven true.

So why is it that no one has come into this thread believing in NDEs and said "Gee... that's revealing! I guess there _could_ be another explanation."? Where are the pro-NDE open minds?

----------


## transtate

my theory is, our spirit or lifeforce or whatever it is, is locked inside us, and when we die it is released, the door opens. when they do those experiments,the door becomes unlocked,hence the nde, or obe. i believe this because ive had a obe which actually seemed like a nde. i wasnt dying at the time hopefully.i was in bed, and fully aware what was happening to me, so why did i have an obe? why did my brain unlock? i dunno! i wasnt being spun round in one of those astronaught chairs, or have electrodes put on me, i was just knackered from a days graft..so why did i float outa my bod and see the white  light, ive been buzzing ever since, im 100% not religious. even after that.

----------


## Kromoh

I still say it's a dream transtate. Personal beliefs; I'm not trying to argue.

----------


## thegnome54

> my theory is, our spirit or lifeforce or whatever it is, is locked inside us, and when we die it is released, the door opens.



Doesn't that seem a bit... pagan?  To you?

Why should we have a spirit or life force?  It seems clear to me that 'theories' like this are born of ignorance of the mechanics of the human brain.  There is no evidence for these claims, and they're grossly unscientific.

----------


## Kromoh

> Doesn't that seem a bit... pagan?  To you?
> 
> Why should we have a spirit or life force?  It seems clear to me that 'theories' like this are born of ignorance of the mechanics of the human brain.  There is no evidence for these claims, and they're grossly unscientific.



What if he is  a (semi)pagan? You never know.. But your prejudice seems to make things hard to understand


And philosophical theories also exist, don't forget that.

----------


## viking-45

you know what..
those stupid scientists are wrong cause when are in an OBE you see things that are actually happening, and that could never happen even if it is the most vivid dream in the world.

they can say whatever they want but OBEs are still real

----------


## Kromoh

> you know what..
> those stupid scientifics are wrong cause when are in an OBE you see things that are actually happening, and that could never happen even if it is the most vivid dream in the world



How are you so sure? One person seeign something that happened doesn't prove anything. Behind him/her there are 1,000,000 other people who had an OBE and didn't see what happened.

Ever heard the word "coincidence"?


Finally, you can still hear or maybe even see things while dreaming. That again makes me suspiscious about OBEs.






> ...those stupid scientifics...



I don't think scientists are stupid at all

----------


## Bad Wolf

http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html. There's 53 articles on that site that provide evidence for near-death experiences, some of which occured while the person was brain dead. For those who say near-death experiences are just dreams, could you please explain how that's possible?

----------


## Kromoh

again, brain death it just a medical category. There are cases of being clinically dead (which is not REALLY dead) and then coming back to life.


The only way to make sure the person's brain was really dead is after a period of time. And coma is not brain death for you to know


If the person's brain really was dead, they could never be alive now.



And about seeing the surgeons and stuff: you can actually see things while clinically brain dead. If your eyes open, the information will be stored, unconsciously. The pacient can also hear things and record them.


Again the "blind people seeing" thing. All bullshit. Blind people do see colours and lights in their dreams. And the section of the article you mentioned is too raw. Explains nothing nor gives scientifical views. Misinformation is a weapon you know.



Finally, the only way to prove consciousness remains after death is to die. To be COMPLETELY dead, not clinically dead (clinical death: the point at which doctors cannot save a patient anymore. Doesn't mean real death)



Finally, read about HI for thinsg similar to the famous "tunnel effect"

----------


## thegnome54

> What if he is  a (semi)pagan? You never know.. But your prejudice seems to make things hard to understand
> 
> 
> And philosophical theories also exist, don't forget that.



I was counting on him having a prejudice against pagan ideals for my point to hit home.  Myself, I have a prejudice against all religious concepts, because I see no good come from faith and the rejection of rational thought processes involved in true science.

Also, philosophical theories are nothing without supporting evidence.  Any theory which involves a non-physical component to human beings is still baseless.  There is simply no reason to believe such a thing save human fear of mortality and human superiority complexes.

----------


## LucidFlanders

> Explains nothing nor gives scientifical views. Misinformation is a weapon you know.



Why does everything NEED a scientific view? science is not god and the only way to prove everything.





> *Finally, the only way to prove consciousness remains after death is to die. To be COMPLETELY dead, not clinically dead (clinical death: the point at which doctors cannot save a patient anymore. Doesn't mean real death)*
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, read about HI for thinsg similar to the famous "tunnel effect"



Amen! In the meantime this is a never ending debate.

----------


## Kromoh

> Why does everything NEED a scientific view? science is not god and the only way to prove everything.



For 2 reasons:

1) I'm skeptical.

2) God doesn't exist.

You can also try to prove things by other means than science, but science is the closest thing from truth we have.

----------


## TheSixthSide

I haven't watched the video and doubt I will since I have a 56k modem. I do believe in OOBE's and I believe in near death experiences. God is real. He gave us a soul too. If we didn't have a soul then we would be just like the animals foxes, bears etc.

Just because a bunch of scientist's didn't have any luck of actually trying to MAKE someone have one doesn't mean they aren't real. I think OOBE's have to do with the soul coming out of your body without dying.

If people can believe in ghosts I would think they would believe in OOBE's. Ghosts are people without a body sadly they are dead though.

----------


## LucidFlanders

> For 2 reasons:
> 
> 1) I'm skeptical.
> 
> 2) God doesn't exist.
> 
> You can also try to prove things by other means than science, but science is the closest thing from truth we have.




Ah, good enough. I didn't mean you per say, i ment everything in general in the world. People believe in something and others saying their is no scientific proof so it's false or whatever.

----------


## transtate

> Doesn't that seem a bit... pagan? To you?
> 
> Why should we have a spirit or life force? It seems clear to me that 'theories' like this are born of ignorance of the mechanics of the human brain. There is no evidence for these claims, and they're grossly unscientific.



 
im not saying im a believer i spirits or lifeforces, and im not pagan lol or anything. i go by what i feel, and by what i experience, ok maybe im a bit of a spiritual person , but if i am it comes from within me, not by following any kind of belief, i dont care if i die and thats it,nothing, im not scared of death,
my gut feeling is we get reborn, but thats a gut feeling,not a hope or wish,i really dont give a monkeys backside either way

while im here id like to share with you what happened to me at around  3 oclock this morning.i entered this lucid state once again,different from before,i was trying to control what i was going to dream,
without success, i was hoping for the white light to make an appearance which it did for a couple of seconds then bang, im zooming through a tunnel in space (dont laugh) at an incredible speed, before slowing down ,im looking at these galaxies full of color ect ( im not a space anorak by the way) then suddenly a light appears,gets bigger and im suddenly looking in on a room from the ceiling at a man having a go at his little girl,i wanted to say something but then backwards i go through space ect, end up in a kind of black void,aware of what just happened,but still in this lucid state,aware of my arm hanging out of the bed unable to move,thats when i started to call for the old hag that ive read about,to see what would happen,well i began to sense something bad in the room,im not scared of no old hag, cos i knew i was laying in bed,and it was a lucid dream, until i felt a weight geting on the bed like when someone climbs over you, thats when i called timeout, and awoke myself. cool

----------


## viking-45

> How are you so sure? One person seeign something that happened doesn't prove anything. Behind him/her there are 1,000,000 other people who had an OBE and didn't see what happened.
> 
> Ever heard the word "coincidence"?
> 
> 
> Finally, you can still hear or maybe even see things while dreaming. That again makes me suspiscious about OBEs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



dude, it cant be a coincidence that every time that you get out of your body you see exactly the things that happened. 

and why is it so dificult to believe  that there is something more than your body ,that something more is you. you are energy , negative and positive energy that constitutes you.
you are your mind and soul, the body is just a physical way to interact with the physical world

and by stupid scientists i dont mean academically , i mean that they deny everything that cant be prooven with science. and deny to proove it by experience thats the stupid part

----------


## viking-45

> God is real. He gave us a soul too. If we didn't have a soul then we would be just like the animals foxes, bears etc.
> .



that is the worse error that christianity has commited,
how can you say that animals dont have soul , dont you see the amount of love that they express between themselves and even to other animals , and even to the most stupid animal in the world that is the human which cant realize the harm that we humans are doing to the world and the shit hole that we are making out of it. Dont you think that the we humans are the only animals close to have no soul?

Dont you see the contrast between the perfection of nature and the corruption and living hell that is the human world?

nature is divine, they only do harm if they need to eat out of it

----------


## Mocari

> http://youtube.com/watch?v=714AS39CQ_I
> 
> I knew it, there's no such thing as Near Death or Out of Body experiences.
> 
> Apparently all they are, are extremely vivid and dreamlike delusional  hallucinations due to nutrient and blood loss from the brain. So... the ultimate lucid dreams.



That situation You described sounds an awful lot like the near death situation. Lack of oxygen, blood, nutrient, whatever. I don't see what's so weird with near death experiences occurring by using one of those near death situations.
They don't really get into kinds of OBE or near death experiences. Many claim to see something happening in other places which turns out to be true. I don't claim this is true but ignoring it completely is a bit sloppy  ::|: 
The worst part: You trust the watch instead of the experience...
How can the apparent conclusion that it's all a trick of the mind prove it is not 'real'? Because reality isn't a trick of the mind?

----------


## TheSixthSide

> that is the worse error that christianity has commited,
> how can you say that animals dont have soul , dont you see the amount of love that they express between themselves and even to other animals , and even to the most stupid animal in the world that is the human which cant realize the harm that we humans are doing to the world and the shit hole that we are making out of it. Dont you think that the we humans are the only animals close to have no soul?
> 
> Dont you see the contrast between the perfection of nature and the corruption and living hell that is the human world?
> 
> nature is divine, they only do harm if they need to eat out of it



You don't need a soul to produce love or emotions and in all my years I've never ever heard of a person seeing/hearing a ghost of an animal.

If evolution is real and God doesn't exist. Then how come the bible predicts the end of the world? It predicted 9/11 and the Jews returning to their homeland. Before you disbelieve something you should at least take interest in it and find out if it's true or not. Our nation was founded on biblical principles and now people are trying to abolish those principles. That's the only reason the U.S. will ever fall or become corrupt (which it's beginning too).  ::thumbdown2::

----------


## Kromoh

> dude, it cant be a coincidence that every time that you get out of your body you see exactly the things that happened. 
> 
> and why is it so dificult to believe  that there is something more than your body ,that something more is you. you are energy , negative and positive energy that constitutes you.
> you are your mind and soul, the body is just a physical way to interact with the physical world
> 
> and by stupid scientists i dont mean academically , i mean that they deny everything that cant be prooven with science. and deny to proove it by experience thats the stupid part




Oh yeah, you do?

Let's do some scientifical experiment then. I really think you don't see things that happened everytime you have (what you think to be) an OBE. It's like once in many, many occurances.

I'm am my body. My brain is my body, my thoughts are my body. It's all physical. What you call a soul is all just another great tool evolution gave us, which is consciousness.


If something cannot be proven by science in any way, high chances are it is false. There is a pink elephant behind you right now, but I can't prove it scientifically you know. You have to believe it yourself.

----------


## lvlindless

> That situation You described sounds an awful lot like the near death situation. Lack of oxygen, blood, nutrient, whatever. I don't see what's so weird with near death experiences occurring by using one of those near death situations.
> They don't really get into kinds of OBE or near death experiences. Many claim to see something happening in other places which turns out to be true. I don't claim this is true but ignoring it completely is a bit sloppy 
> The worst part: You trust the watch instead of the experience...
> How can the apparent conclusion that it's all a trick of the mind prove it is not 'real'? Because reality isn't a trick of the mind?



All I'm saying is that when you have an OBE you really aren't... "out of body", it's all in your head. Just a very vivid dream in which you are extremely self aware. I didn't say they weren't "real." Lucid dreams are completely real to YOU, but that doesn't mean they actually happened. It's a different kind of real I'm trying to point out is false, a real that exists in the physical world.

----------


## Mocari

> Oh yeah, you do?
> 
> Let's do some scientifical experiment then. I really think you don't see things that happened everytime you have (what you think to be) an OBE. It's like once in many, many occurances.
> 
> I'm am my body. My brain is my body, my thoughts are my body. It's all physical. What you call a soul is all just another great tool evolution gave us, which is consciousness.
> 
> 
> If something cannot be proven by science in any way, high chances are it is false. There is a pink elephant behind you right now, but I can't prove it scientifically you know. You have to believe it yourself.



Whose body is it?

----------


## Kromoh

It's the body that composes my being. It's the body that completes me.

My body isn't mine; my body is ME. My toes are me, my ears are me, my hair is me.

My hands belong to my brain as well as my brain belongs to my hands.



i hate when people mess around the word "me" to try to prove sometging philosophical. If you have personality problems, it's not my fault xD

----------


## Mocari

> It's the body that composes my being. It's the body that completes me.
> 
> My body isn't mine; my body is ME. My toes are me, my ears are me, my hair is me.
> 
> My hands belong to my brain as well as my brain belongs to my hands.
> 
> 
> 
> i hate when people mess around the word "me" to try to prove sometging philosophical. If you have personality problems, it's not my fault xD



Ow i didn't want to prove anything. I don't even believe proof is needed for anything. Usually it sparks a realization or sense of being more.
Proof requires consistency and ruling out, and honestly i do not believe reality to be consistent or partial at all. 
In science we drop a ball and it falls down. There's no emotion, no faith. The roots of reality and of science are left out.
If i am angry at my mom, and drop a ball, i may see it fall straight ahead into her face. But we don't record that do we? Because it's inconsistent, it's subjective, it must be an illusion. Well that's sure one way to look at it.
Science takes faith. It shows us consistency, something to hold on to, but i don't believe it shows us truth. I have never really seen science as truth, rather as our convenient version of it. In that regard it only shows the truth we now believe in, but is limited to our coloration and can not show our capability of coloring. That only happens when we open our minds to more than science.
This way the world makes a lot of sense to me.
In that light, i don't understand people who don't want to see other people dwell away from scientific truth and embrace their fantasies. I am like the other way around. For example i actually envy Christians who are capable of believing they will go to heaven and would wish for that belief to spread as wide and deeply as can be.

----------


## Kromoh

I know science is cold, but that's the beauty of it. Many people think that non-religious people are imoral, because they generalise things. Religion involves morality, yes, but being religious is not necessary for being moral.

Science might even take faith, but it takes far less faith than anything else, because it is self explanatory. It is logical, so to say. You see the meaning behind it.



There are other things that can give your life meaning apart from religion. Learning, creating, making art.. Saying that believing i nscience makes one cold is a bad assumption.
Believing tha teher is no afterlife, that our life ends here, has a far more beautiful message of love than the one religion provides.

Religion is the one that provides a convenient explanation, not science. Actually, religion is the one to provide convenience: believing in something that makes us feel good.


If you accept a Christian to spread their beliefs, why don't you accept a naturalistic to spread his? That's pretty much biased i guess. Either you treat everyone equally, or you treat every single human being differently. Generalising is never a good idea.

----------


## pokilty

The video is very convincing and offers a good explanation, in my opinion.

----------


## Mocari

> I know science is cold, but that's the beauty of it. Many people think that non-religious people are imoral, because they generalise things. Religion involves morality, yes, but being religious is not necessary for being moral.
> 
> Science might even take faith, but it takes far less faith than anything else, because it is self explanatory. It is logical, so to say. You see the meaning behind it.
> 
> 
> 
> There are other things that can give your life meaning apart from religion. Learning, creating, making art.. Saying that believing i nscience makes one cold is a bad assumption.
> Believing tha teher is no afterlife, that our life ends here, has a far more beautiful message of love than the one religion provides.
> 
> ...



I don't understand how certain religions aren't self explanatory. Aren't they all?
Now i never said believing in science makes someone cold. What i did mean to say is that i don't believe science covers the entire truth. It may one day do that, but i don't think that would be the best choice.

I also don't believe anything can beat a paradise, in terms of beauty or love. Science doesn't provide the ultimate fantasy.
And all sides provide convenient explanations. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. All i mean is that science doesn't have to be all there is to this world. And i would really like people to not limit themselves to one string of thoughts. I'm a very lazy person, i like convenient explanations a lot, and i don't see the point of delving deeper when a convenient, perhaps false, explanation gets You where You want to be.

Ow of course i'm biased. Who isn't? For example i would rather live with a promise of heaven than with a science that proves it wrong. This is a wild card; in my opinion the whole deal with existing is being biased. If i didn't have any bias, than what good am i? Sure my influence could be utilized by others, but there wouldn't be any room for me.
I wouldn't like a world without me.

----------


## Kromoh

Well our personalities are pretty much different.

Man, look at the human potential. Look at the horizon we have. Our society can be much better. 

No matter how comforting it can sound, being wrong isn't a good kind of convenience in my opinion. If you dislike to be right, because it involves effort, then you should pretty much give up pointing out your opinion.


All I see is prejudice in your post. Judging naturalistic people too much.

Me:
_If you accept a Christian to spread their beliefs, why don't you accept a naturalistic to spread his? That's pretty much biased i guess._

You:
_Ow of course i'm biased._


I'd rather not be known at all than be known as a bad person.


The same way you agree with religious people spreading their faith, I agree with naturalistic people fighting people's faith.

You must pretty much like the bliss of ignorance. I respect you for that, but find you rather weak of character.

If you say you wouldn't want science to one day know everything, then it means you don't want to know, you wanna close your eyes.

Again a previous argument of mine proves useful:

Science is always changing and adaptating to new data, so that it is always as close as possible to being correct.
Faith is believing blindly in something and never changing it. If your beliefs are wrong, you'll be wrong for a lifetime.

And yet again I'll state I choose science. My reasons are obvious.

----------


## Oneironaught

> Dont you see the contrast between the perfection of nature and the corruption and living hell that is the human world?



You do realize that Humans are part of nature too, right?

----------


## Mocari

> Well our personalities are pretty much different.
> 
> Man, look at the human potential. Look at the horizon we have. Our society can be much better. 
> 
> No matter how comforting it can sound, being wrong isn't a good kind of convenience in my opinion. If you dislike to be right, because it involves effort, then you should pretty much give up pointing out your opinion.
> 
> 
> All I see is prejudice in your post. Judging naturalistic people too much.
> 
> ...



Science gets us somewhere but i'm not so sure it has gotten us that far. I can't really measure it. It's certainly been useful, but as far as we know there may have been a different take on truth that would have gotten us much further. There's still infinite room for improvement, we agree on that.

I haven't been talking about right or wrong. But i understand our beliefs on what the right mindset is like, differ.

I'm not aware of being a bad person, and have little direct control over how people view me. I say one thing they hear ten others. I don't know myself as a bad person, but i would if i would ignore my own beliefs. We agree on rather being not known than being known as a bad person.

I dislike ignorance as much as You do. It causes misunderstanding, and harm.
Science isn't me. I would like to know things, but knowing things according to me, does not have to be the same as knowing things according to You, or science. I see more ways to know things than through a scientific approach.

My beliefs have changed plenty of times, it is nothing rigid. Science kept changing because it kept being wrong, alike my beliefs. But science does seem to approach truth even to me, and is in my experience incredibly useful. I won't deny that and i hope You understand i am not suggesting You do anything wrong.

----------


## Scatterbrain

> If evolution is real and God doesn't exist. Then how come the bible predicts the end of the world? It predicted 9/11 and the Jews returning to their homeland. Before you disbelieve something you should at least take interest in it and find out if it's true or not.



Then I suggest you take interest, do your research and realise that evolution IS real.  :wink2: 

I would also like to know exactly how did the bible predict the 9/11, or anything at all for that matter.

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## Kromoh

> Science gets us somewhere but i'm not so sure it has gotten us that far. I can't really measure it. It's certainly been useful, but as far as we know there may have been a different take on truth that would have gotten us much further. There's still infinite room for improvement, we agree on that.
> 
> I haven't been talking about right or wrong. But i understand our beliefs on what the right mindset is like, differ.
> 
> I'm not aware of being a bad person, and have little direct control over how people view me. I say one thing they hear ten others. I don't know myself as a bad person, but i would if i would ignore my own beliefs. We agree on rather being not known than being known as a bad person.
> 
> I dislike ignorance as much as You do. It causes misunderstanding, and harm.
> Science isn't me. I would like to know things, but knowing things according to me, does not have to be the same as knowing things according to You, or science. I see more ways to know things than through a scientific approach.
> 
> My beliefs have changed plenty of times, it is nothing rigid. Science kept changing because it kept being wrong, alike my beliefs. But science does seem to approach truth even to me, and is in my experience incredibly useful. I won't deny that and i hope You understand i am not suggesting You do anything wrong.



Well, there really are multiple ways to get explanation of things. What I say is that some of the mis rather wrong.

Another thing: science is almost never wrong. It bases on hypothesis, just like anything else. If the hypothesis is real, then the thesis is real.

An example of hypothesis-thesis:
Hypothesis: All women are fat. Jane is a woman.
Thesis: Jane is fat.

That thesis is based on the hypothesis that all women are fat. If that hypothesis proves false, then the thesis proves false. But still, _if_ the hypothesis was true, the thesis would also be true.

If you don't think science has gotten us far, compare the belief of a square earth to the possibility of finding water in other planets by using light. I believe that's pretty much an advancement.

---

To me, prejudicial judgment is pretty much wrong. If you do it consciously, it makes you a bad person. Again, that's my belief, you don't have to agree with that.

What I say is that you defend people who prefer to believe in something convenient, rather than fight ignorance.

---

Finally, I do not yet know of a situation in which science was blatantly wrong. If you mind to point an example, I'd be really glad.

------------------------------------





> Then I suggest you take interest, do your research and realise that evolution IS real. 
> 
> I would also like to know exactly how did the bible predict the 9/11, or anything at all for that matter.



It's strange how people only predict things AFTER they happen.

That's what sucks about interpretation of the bible. ANYTHING can be interpreted.

----------


## TheSixthSide

> It's strange how people only predict things AFTER they happen.
> 
> That's what sucks about interpretation of the bible. ANYTHING can be interpreted.



It wasn't predicted after it happened. The bible has been around a lot longer than 9/11.

and to the guy who told me to take interest in evolution. I have I've been taught it, but don't believe it. The **** if I came from a stupid monkey. And if we came from monkeys shouldn't we still be seeing this happening today? How come it's not happening among us?

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## skysaw

> if I came from a stupid monkey. And if we came from monkeys...



This is a typical gross misunderstanding of what evolution is. Evolution states that monkeys and humans _have a common ancestor_... not that humans "came from monkeys."





> How come it's not happening among us?



Evolution is happening all the time, and there are many, many examples of evolution happening within a short, observable span of time. Evolution a more grander nature takes millions of years, so to think that you would observe that type is a gross misunderstanding of the nature of time, perception, and lifespan.

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## SKA

Regardless of what brainfunctioning and activity causes this these experiences are as real as any other experience. The fact that certain brainprocesses seem to be synchronised with these experiences doesn't really say a DAMN thing about wether they are Real or not. TO me it's very simple: IF I experience it it is real. 

To me it sounds a bit rediculous to experience the most intense, impressive and immersive dreams, Wake up and then conclude that all we just experienced must have been " Not Real". Then what DID I just experience? I can really only conclude that it wasn't of this, waking, reality. 

Can you tell me what happens between the brain going into a certain activity  and chemistry and the actual experience of a Dream? Where does the brain stop and the Mind begin huh?

There's no scientific proof that the MIND is actually real. There would be nothing in narrowminded science to even start tracing something as abstract as the Mind, yet we all experience consciousness, thoughts, dreams, hallucinations and other such abstract perceptions.

So we know that when we dream/OOBE/Hallucinate there are certain alterations in the functiopning of the brain, but that doesn't explain anything about the experiences they may cause me to have really. It's just a bunch of statistics next to a mystery that is beyond our understanding to understand. Science is just not willing to admit that they cannot understand Reality properly using the limited, narrowminded frame of mind and defenitions of reality they have. They need to open their goddamn minds to the truth, whatever it may be, not exclude possiblities: Who are they? Gods or Reality? They can only speculate Reality, not Define it.

Is it really that hard to admit for these Scientists that "are bent on explaining all of reality for ya" that, allthough we've figured out some brain-activity and processes, we really have no clue of what we experience in such "questionable" states of mind. No proof to put any other theory or belief in question at all.

----------


## LucidFlanders

Still could be just the body but because it feels so real we perseve it as real because how real and extremly vivid it was like.  People are ignorant that way.

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## Scatterbrain

> It wasn't predicted after it happened. The bible has been around a lot longer than 9/11.



Yeah but people only noticed it after the 9/11. Do you really think god is that obsessed with the usa?





> and to the guy who told me to take interest in evolution. I have I've been taught it, but don't believe it. The **** if I came from a stupid monkey. And if we came from monkeys shouldn't we still be seeing this happening today? How come it's not happening among us?



There are tons of proof coming from various fields of science: Biogeography, paleontology, comparative anatomy, embryology, cell biology, biochemistry...
Either you didn't do your homework or you just don't want to accept the facts.  :wink2:

----------


## Kromoh

> Regardless of what brainfunctioning and activity causes this these experiences are as real as any other experience. The fact that certain brainprocesses seem to be synchronised with these experiences doesn't really say a DAMN thing about wether they are Real or not. TO me it's very simple: IF I experience it it is real. 
> 
> To me it sounds a bit rediculous to experience the most intense, impressive and immersive dreams, Wake up and then conclude that all we just experienced must have been " Not Real". Then what DID I just experience? I can really only conclude that it wasn't of this, waking, reality. 
> 
> Can you tell me what happens between the brain going into a certain activity  and chemistry and the actual experience of a Dream? Where does the brain stop and the Mind begin huh?
> 
> There's no scientific proof that the MIND is actually real. There would be nothing in narrowminded science to even start tracing something as abstract as the Mind, yet we all experience consciousness, thoughts, dreams, hallucinations and other such abstract perceptions.
> 
> So we know that when we dream/OOBE/Hallucinate there are certain alterations in the functiopning of the brain, but that doesn't explain anything about the experiences they may cause me to have really. It's just a bunch of statistics next to a mystery that is beyond our understanding to understand. Science is just not willing to admit that they cannot understand Reality properly using the limited, narrowminded frame of mind and defenitions of reality they have. They need to open their goddamn minds to the truth, whatever it may be, not exclude possiblities: Who are they? Gods or Reality? They can only speculate Reality, not Define it.
> ...



Science HAS proven the mind. E.g. a person gets hit in their head, and a certain part of the brain dies. After that, the person loses memory. What happened?
The logical assumption is that the part that died was responsible for memory. That proves mind pretty well.

There are proofs to every characteristic of the mind, but I won't bother pointing all of them.

---

Dreams were once considered to be travels to a different dimension. However, science, COULD explain the dreams. Just like the earth was once thought to be plane, and then science proved it round.

People believe anything until science comes and proves it.

---

Dreams CAN carry a lot of meaning for the dreamer: after all, they deal with emotions, mostly. As I said previously, the thought that it will rain, in a dream, will make it rain. Pretty much like the Matrix: if you believe it'll happen it'll happen.

Science is not narrowminded. Actually it's more openminded than any other knowledge area. Science does actually try to explain everything, but sometimes it just cannot be proven, no matter how many great minds work. To me, the only explanation to that is that those unexplainable are not real.

---

You actually CAN define reality. An especulation can also be a definition, for any matter. If science finds proof about something (e.g. something works that same way, in given circumstances, every time) then it surely should be considered real. Either that, or it is more complex, but to the given level of complexity it is applicable (e.g. newtonian rules do not aply in big or rather small scales, but applies to everyday life).

if you think nothing can be understood, then why do you mind to ccome up with explanation (be it scientifical or not) about things? Why do you think science is wrong? By believing that, you certainly have a reason to do so. If not, then our discussion ends here.

---

The perfect example of when not to believe what you see is when yo uhave hallucinations. Your mind can trick you sometimes, and you may even though think it is real. Believing everything you see is ignorance imo.






> Still could be just the body but because it feels so real we perseve it as real because how real and extremly vivid it was like.  People are ignorant that way.



Ditto.

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## Kromoh

> It wasn't predicted after it happened. The bible has been around a lot longer than 9/11.
> 
> and to the guy who told me to take interest in evolution. I have I've been taught it, but don't believe it. The **** if I came from a stupid monkey. And if we came from monkeys shouldn't we still be seeing this happening today? How come it's not happening among us?



I can always say "the green one will attack, and all those who once hid their riches will regret having lived".

Pretty *abstract* sentece it is. Actually, it's completely abstract. Any interpretation can be taken out of it (just like in astrology or numerology articles). That is not a prediction to my eyes eyes. I can say that "the green one" is a plane that had a green letter on it, and that the WTC was "the one who hid their riches".


Bible (nor Nostradamus lol) did not predict anything, unless the bible said that:

"In 9/11, the World Trade Center in new York, United States of America, will fall, after planes hitting them."

THAT is a prediction  :tongue2: 

----------


You did not come from a monkey. Actually, you and the monkey are cousins. Humans and monkeys had the same "grandfathers".

Saying that you came from a monkey is saying that monkeys didn't evolve at all in so many years. That is not what evolution theory says.

If you say that, then for sure yo udidn't pay much attention to science classes at school.  :tongue2: 

Evolution doesn't happen in 3 hours, nor in 7 days, nor in 1 year, nor in 10,000 years for that matter. Saying you lived long enough to see evolution is ridiculous. Again, go read something abotu evolution, an you'll see that most of what you condene in evolution is actually not what it says.

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## Mocari

> Well, there really are multiple ways to get explanation of things. What I say is that some of the mis rather wrong.
> 
> Another thing: science is almost never wrong. It bases on hypothesis, just like anything else. If the hypothesis is real, then the thesis is real.
> 
> An example of hypothesis-thesis:
> Hypothesis: All women are fat. Jane is a woman.
> Thesis: Jane is fat.
> 
> That thesis is based on the hypothesis that all women are fat. If that hypothesis proves false, then the thesis proves false. But still, _if_ the hypothesis was true, the thesis would also be true.
> ...



It seems we agree on most things. Like, i don't believe every explanation is a right one. And i do believe science is almost never wrong. But it does change to become right.
Science may have gotten us somewhere, but if there is room for infinite improvement without a comparison of experiences i can't say whether it is really one of the best or one of the worst approaches to getting where we want. This shows a big difference between our two views. You might say, there are comparable experiences approaching objective truth. And to me that is all still part of just one experience.

I can understand You believe prejudicial judgment to be bad. I only like getting a grasp on what prejudicial judgment is true to someone though, i don't just approve any kind of prejudicial judgment.
I do defend people who believe in something convenient as i think anything can be believed, but i hate ignorance as it distances someone from the truth. But again from Your point of view it's very understandable You don't like the look of it.

When i give an example of science being wrong, You can always state it was the people behind science who were wrong, not a true scientist or science itself. That is, if You look at science as never letting people drawing a fairly sure conclusion but as always adjusting hypothesis. That would mean science never gets us closer to truth but that it's the scientists themselves who sometimes do, sometimes don't, without being based on science. If You do believe science means something in regard to truth, i think things like the Newton incident springs to mind, or any court of law drawing a wrong conclusion based on science.

The developed difference between our views is interesting. Where it all starts though, is that You perceive, i think?, us as being part of the world, experiencing a coloration of objective truth.
And in my eyes, there is nothing but and nothing outside our one experience. Which makes us just as much part of the world as the world itself, our experience a reflection of ourself, equal to what we perceive. 
They are both based on different realizations, and science can't prove either one of us right easily, since in both cases science would show us the truth as long as we view it that way. But both versions do state science can prove either one of us wrong, which in my point of view would be a shame as it may throw away a lot of possibly true, more wished for, approaches.

----------


## Alucinor Architecton

> Prove me wrong!!!!!



You are not unique, everyone has a unicorn that whispers to them at night, but the purple ones dont cause dreams, they just make the dreamer think it's causing dreams when its really just you thinking in your sleep with no cognition of the conscious world so your mind can make up any environment and situation. i know this because the pink unicorn that talks to me (the only truth-telling colored unicorn) told me so. 

congratulations.

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## Kromoh

> It seems we agree on most things. Like, i don't believe every explanation is a right one. And i do believe science is almost never wrong. But it does change to become right.
> Science may have gotten us somewhere, but if there is room for infinite improvement without a comparison of experiences i can't say whether it is really one of the best or one of the worst approaches to getting where we want. This shows a big difference between our two views. You might say, there are comparable experiences approaching objective truth. And to me that is all still part of just one experience.
> 
> I can understand You believe prejudicial judgment to be bad. I only like getting a grasp on what prejudicial judgment is true to someone though, i don't just approve any kind of prejudicial judgment.
> I do defend people who believe in something convenient as i think anything can be believed, but i hate ignorance as it distances someone from the truth. But again from Your point of view it's very understandable You don't like the look of it.
> 
> When i give an example of science being wrong, You can always state it was the people behind science who were wrong, not a true scientist or science itself. That is, if You look at science as never letting people drawing a fairly sure conclusion but as always adjusting hypothesis. That would mean science never gets us closer to truth but that it's the scientists themselves who sometimes do, sometimes don't, without being based on science. If You do believe science means something in regard to truth, i think things like the Newton incident springs to mind, or any court of law drawing a wrong conclusion based on science.
> 
> The developed difference between our views is interesting. Where it all starts though, is that You perceive, i think?, us as being part of the world, experiencing a coloration of objective truth.
> ...



What I stated by science based on hypothesis is that it studies every possibility.

Hypothesis: All women are fat. Jane is a woman.
Thesis: Jane is fat.

What I tried to explain here is that science never stated that all women are fat. What it states is that, _if_ all women are fat, and Jane is a woman, than there is the logical assumption that Jane is fat.


Now a religious case (christian to be mroe specific):

Hypothesis: God exists. He sent his son to earth.
Thesis: The son of god is Jesus.

That is not a logical assumption. Actually, science also tries to prove their hypothesis true with facts, but religion doesn't. Actually, nothing ensures that the son of god is Jesus, even if the hypothesis is true. It could be me, or you, or Judas, or George W. Bush.



The line of thought you follows gets me feel like everything I see or feel is only inside me. Even you, are only inside my perception. Saying that there is nothing apart from perception is foolish (and selfish). There are many things we do not perceive that do actually happen. Science studies that, its causes and outcomes.

----------


## Mocari

> What I stated by science based on hypothesis is that it studies every possibility.
> 
> Hypothesis: All women are fat. Jane is a woman.
> Thesis: Jane is fat.
> 
> What I tried to explain here is that science never stated that all women are fat. What it states is that, _if_ all women are fat, and Jane is a woman, than there is the logical assumption that Jane is fat.
> 
> 
> Now a religious case (christian to be mroe specific):
> ...



Yet as it studies everything new based on what we are familiar with (what we believe to know is true), it only studies the possibilities that are true according to what we currently believe to know is true. It seems to be based on something unscientific and it doesn't show us the entire picture of truth, in that something more than the truth we perceive, can be true in due time.

Well can You name me something that You do not perceive to be, that actually happens or is? I can't imagine You don't perceive everything there is to You. If something is not a part of Your perception, how can it be of importance to You? If it has some meaning to You, or is there to You, it is already part of Your perception. Without a connection between You and something else, i don't see how that something else can be existent, or anything, to You.

----------


## Kromoh

Actually, science does study the every new possibility that shows up. Of course, it's not possible to study electrons without having already studied atoms, but eventually science can reach every level of complexity there is.

And only because i do not perceive something doesn't mean it does not exist. We cannot see air, and a lot of philosophers from the past took time to consider it real.
The opposite may also happen: I can see something tha tdoes not exist, or misundertand somethign real for something untrue.
Only because I do not know you, it doesn't mean you do not exist, and thinking you don't is extremely silly and ignorant.

What I mean is that, no matter how many times science explains OOBE's etc they're still considered to be very mistical and all that "boring stuff" (read BS).


Saying that your perception is the world is idealistic. And since I believe i nmaterialism, I completely disagree with you.

----------


## Mocari

> Actually, science does study the every new possibility that shows up. Of course, it's not possible to study electrons without having already studied atoms, but eventually science can reach every level of complexity there is.
> 
> And only because i do not perceive something doesn't mean it does not exist. We cannot see air, and a lot of philosophers from the past took time to consider it real.
> The opposite may also happen: I can see something that does not exist, or misunderstand something real for something untrue.
> Only because I do not know you, it doesn't mean you do not exist, and thinking you don't is extremely silly and ignorant.
> 
> What I mean is that, no matter how many times science explains OOBE's etc they're still considered to be very mystical and all that "boring stuff" (read BS).
> 
> 
> Saying that your perception is the world is idealistic. And since I believe in materialism, I completely disagree with you.



That's exactly my point. Not every possibility shows up. And it's that selection of possibilities that do show up, that we call truth, that science covers. But that's just the part we call truth right now, and is still open for change.

To me it's obvious i don't exist if You don't know me. But You do know me, to some extend. I exert influence on You, You focus on me partially, therefor i exist. You believe i'm here, right? So You see i'm here. You believe there is air, You experience air. You believe the dream wasn't real, and the dream is not real to You. If You believe i'm ignorant and idealistic, well then i am, to You.

----------


## Blµb

without reading the rest of the posts (just read a few)
and without seeing the video

I tell ya: it's bullsh*t
Why?
As somebody suggested: Search for `god proved wrong'

*It is simply impossible to prove that OBEs are impossible*
You can prove that many of them are dreams, ofc, but maybe you just never catch the real ones?

----------


## Oneironaught

> To me it's obvious i don't exist if You don't know me.



If I'm misunderstanding you, I apologise. But I don't see how people can use the philosophical argument that "what I don't know must not exist." Sure, to the one who is unaware, it's not there for consideration. But, just because you aren't aware doesn't make it not so.

----------


## Kromoh

> That's exactly my point. Not every possibility shows up. And it's that selection of possibilities that do show up, that we call truth, that science covers. But that's just the part we call truth right now, and is still open for change.
> 
> To me it's obvious i don't exist if You don't know me. But You do know me, to some extend. I exert influence on You, You focus on me partially, therefor i exist. You believe i'm here, right? So You see i'm here. You believe there is air, You experience air. You believe the dream wasn't real, and the dream is not real to You. If You believe i'm ignorant and idealistic, well then i am, to You.



Well, what *I* perceive is unimportant in scientifical matters. What matter is that, no matter if I perceive it or not, you do exert influence on me. Your breathing could eventually change somehtign tha taffects me. A simple initial change evolves in geometrical progression. As I always say, a butterfly could be the differential factor that created a hurricane.





> If I'm misunderstanding you, I apologise. But I don't see how people can use the philosophical argument that "what I don't know must not exist." Sure, to the one who is unaware, it's not there for consideration. But, just because you aren't aware doesn't make it not so.



Ditto.

----------


## Mocari

> If I'm misunderstanding you, I apologise. But I don't see how people can use the philosophical argument that "what I don't know must not exist." Sure, to the one who is unaware, it's not there for consideration. But, just because you aren't aware doesn't make it not so.



How doesn't it make it not so?
There is simply nothing to base the assumption on that i don't perceive there to be, everything there is to me.
Never has there been any indication whatsoever that there is something You Yourself don't see as being there.
That assumption itself = Your point of view, and proves itself to You by seeing things that way. Which only approves my point of view.

----------


## Oneironaught

> How doesn't it make it not so?
> There is simply nothing to base the assumption on that i don't perceive there to be, everything there is to me.
> Never has there been any indication whatsoever that there is something You Yourself don't see as being there.
> That assumption itself = Your point of view, and proves itself to You by seeing things that way. Which only approves my point of view.



What??? Anyway, just because I don't see or become effected by something doesnt mean it's non-existent. It still effects those who are exposed to it.

I have no idea what you're trying to get at.

----------


## Kromoh

Mocari is just messing around at concepts I guess.


Most of the time I do not feel my heart beat, but it affects me doesn't it? That proves you wrong. _Period._

----------


## Mocari

> What??? Anyway, just because I don't see or become effected by something doesn't mean it's non-existent. It still effects those who are exposed to it.
> 
> I have no idea what you're trying to get at.



I don't understand how it doesn't mean it's non-existent. If You are aware it effects those who are exposed to it than of course that's the way it is. But if You aren't, i don't see how it can be existent.

What i initially was getting at is that we shouldn't believe so easily, or hold on to so often, to what science shows us as credible.
I wanted to show one of its limitations. And in doing so i stumbled upon a different view on the world. After this i tried to clarify and grasp the small difference in thinking, that splits up into these two almost opposite views.
But that's harder to show than i had hoped.

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## KuRoSaKi

:Clap:  Congratulations :bravo:

I see the astounding members of DV have managed to muster another [SIZE=5]5 [SIZE=2]page topic into existence  ::goodjob:: I knew it would happen again, but I didn't think this topic would actually go that far.


 ::blahblahblah::  Now I am sure that many of you have noticed this with all arguements on this forum as I am sure it is everywhere that there are TWO SIDES to every arguement. For instance in this case there are those who believe in Out Of Body Experiences & Those Who Do Not. 

I seriously doubt you will ever get the other side to see your view on things and as you can see 5 Pages Later you are still arguing about the same thing nobody has accepted the others side take on things and I doubt this post will make any difference.

But nobody is going to go "Oh that's a good point I think I will agree with you now."

So really I don't see the point in arguing this topic any further. I do believe this is called "Arguing For The Sake Of Arguing" or something to that effect.

Yours Truly,

Brandon Heat

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## MrDeJaWu

i'll proved it right IF and only if i have OOBE and i heard that u can wander around in RL?? if that's true i'll wander to a new neighbour hood n remember all the detail! then when i wake up i'll visit it to see if it matches. 

If yes> yeah souls and hell n heaven is all real n i'll do gd deed but other ppls wont believe nvm i alone know the ans will be enough xD

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## Oneironaught

> I don't understand how it doesn't mean it's non-existent. If You are aware it effects those who are exposed to it than of course that's the way it is. But if You aren't, i don't see how it can be existent.
> 
> What i initially was getting at is that we shouldn't believe so easily, or hold on to so often, to what science shows us as credible.
> I wanted to show one of its limitations. And in doing so i stumbled upon a different view on the world. After this i tried to clarify and grasp the small difference in thinking, that splits up into these two almost opposite views.
> But that's harder to show than i had hoped.



I understand that you're using a philosophical argument. But it only works in the realm of philosophical thinking. That concept holds no water when considering real life. Awareness has no bearing on ultimate reality.





> i'll proved it right IF and only if i have OOBE and i heard that u can wander around in RL?? if that's true i'll wander to a new neighbour hood n remember all the detail! then when i wake up i'll visit it to see if it matches. 
> 
> If yes> yeah souls and hell n heaven is all real n i'll do gd deed but other ppls wont believe nvm i alone know the ans will be enough xD



I sometimes wish people would use WORDS when they post.

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## sloth

Yeah. That's not proof.
That's like saying that you have found proof that aliens don't exist.
Whether they do or don't, you can never prove their INexistence.

The words "I know..." are best spoken by fools.

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## Xaqaria

Hey I love Penn and Teller. I just don't claim that anything they say is proof. They are comedians; they make money off of mixing the truth with lies in order to entertain. Some of what they say is true but its up to you to research their claims and separate out; the bullshit.

Personally I would be a little skeptical of anyone who makes a living off of you sitting in front of your television telling you their 'message' is "don't be on the sofa."

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## Xaqaria

> Now I am sure that many of you have noticed this with all arguements on this forum as I am sure it is everywhere that there areTWO SIDES to every arguement.



Well actually there are at least three sides to this discussion, as I don't believe in NDE's exactly, but I don't think Penn and Teller is a good source for proof.

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## Oneironaught

> ...but I don't think Penn and Teller is a good source for proof.



True. I wouldn't say they could supply proof of _anything_ except that jerks who go out of their way to ruin magic and to piss off the magic community can actually make a very good living doing _magic shows_ and being annoying pr!cks. Go figure.

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## Mocari

> I understand that you're using a philosophical argument. But it only works in the realm of philosophical thinking. That concept holds no water when considering real life. Awareness has no bearing on ultimate reality.
> 
> 
> I sometimes wish people would use WORDS when they post.



If You see that as truth, i'm not arguing that it isn't. The same way science only works in the realm of scientific thinking, the same way God exists in the eyes of the Christian. Philosophical thinking is very much a part of my reality.

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## Kromoh

> If You see that as truth, i'm not arguing that it isn't. The same way science only works in the realm of scientific thinking, the same way God exists in the eyes of the Christian. Philosophical thinking is very much a part of my reality.



It doesn't mean philosophy is always right.

Science is trustworthy because of the scientifical method. It exludes almost every possibility of a wrong thesis.
Even for that reason, psychology took years to become a science. Nowadays, it's limited to concepts, since psychological theses always involuntarily touch the concepts of perception, awareness, ethics, and all that's related to it. That is mostly social science: social science is the study of how society developped and how it functions to us. That's why I still think psychiatry is better (although I do not agree with a lot of it).

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## Matt5678

my god dont get me started on this video. penn and teller spread propaganda. they didnt give raymond moody a decent interview. you notice how they only allowed the scientists that agree with them to awnser any questions.... and raymond moody has compelling evidence against the dying brain theory. penn and teller also didnt mention the 6 year prospective study done by pim van lommel and peter frenwick. i guess they forgot about that one because it doesnt support their theories.
sorry if i sound angry but i feel very strongly about this topic

ive read alot of NDE's and they are truly fascinating if you look into them. some of the most fascinating NDE's are of blind people that become sighted for the first time. 

the whole lack of oxygen theory falls apart when you get one NDE where the experience happens when there are no brain waves. i think the case of Pam Reynolds is that case that really cuts deepest into that theory

well you have heard penn and teller and their scientists. now hear from the NDEers and open minded scientists...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RsV2oWL0bK0

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## Oneironaught

First of all, I don't agree with Penn and Teller most of the time either.





> ...the whole lack of oxygen theory falls apart when you get one NDE where the experience happens when there are no *measurable* brain waves.



I fixed that for you.

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## Matt5678

thanks. 

i was just mad how they got a group of scientists and tried to say that all of the scientific community agrees with them. i could go on the internet and find a group of "scientists" that say evolution is false and the earth is 6000 years old. (no offence to any ones personal beliefs)

EDIT: i would also like to point out one thing that hurts the dream theory. thousands of people who have had NDE's report some of the same features. a very large percent say they saw "Beings" made out of light. a very large percentage say they had a life review and they could instantly feel all the effects they had on people. and a significant percentage report a border "Limit". Sometimes it’s a door or a line on the ground. and they are told if they cross into the other side they can never return. these are just a few examples. i know there are exceptions but its rare to have two different people having the same dream. are you really prepared to say there is nothing odd about thousands of people who have the same hallucination. im not saying this is proof, but it sure is perplexing

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## jamous

my problem with this video is they don't finish thinking about the subject at hand. They should have actually listened to the writer who was "out to make a buck." He had a good point in saying that the believers and the disbelievers were in the same boat, the believers being the ones who think accounts of ND OOBEs prove anything and the nonbelievers being the ones who believe that a physiological reasoning proves there isn't an "afterlife." THE FACT THERE IS PHYSIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE THAT OOBES ARE A NATURAL OCCURANCE IN THE BRAIN DOES *NOT* IN ANYWAY PROVE THERE ISN'T SPIRITUAL OR OTHERWORLDLY SIGNIFICANCE. That is, I believe, what Dr. Moody's point was. 
Penn and Teller are so smug they just slap the title of "out to make a buck" on him, because he isn't an atheist. He does want to make money off of his opinions. And so do Penn and Teller. I have no problem with that. They just have to be hypocrital, smug jerks.

----------


## jamous

sorry for the rant, Penn and Teller just really should think more openmindedly about the whole thing... they are just so smug.

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## Matt5678

i totally absolutely agree jamous, i was wondering if that writer they made fun of knew what was happening. poor women probably really believed what happened to her and didn’t know she was invited on a show just to be made fun of  :Sad:

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## jamous

> i totally absolutely agree jamous, i was wondering if that writer they made fun of knew what was happening. poor women probably really believed what happened to her and didnt know she was invited on a show just to be made fun of



seriously, they hypocritically criticized the writer who made more sense than they did, and made out these people who were only reporting they're personal experiences to be fools, just because they believed there was meaning in their NDEs. I have no problem with Atheists, just being a smug asshole about it.

----------


## Kromoh

I don't know why people discuss more about Penn and Teller than the topic itself

----------


## skysaw

> I don't know why people discuss more about Penn and Teller than the topic itself



I wonder that as well. I agree they are very one-sided and a bit bullying, but that shouldn't make one discount the experiences of the people in the experiment, which wasn't even conducted by P&T.

----------


## SKA

> Oh yeah, you do?
> 
> Let's do some scientifical experiment then. I really think you don't see things that happened everytime you have (what you think to be) an OBE. It's like once in many, many occurances.
> 
> I'm am my body. My brain is my body, my thoughts are my body. It's all physical. What you call a soul is all just another great tool evolution gave us, which is consciousness.
> 
> 
> If something cannot be proven by science in any way, high chances are it is false. There is a pink elephant behind you right now, but I can't prove it scientifically you know. You have to believe it yourself.



Thoughts are physical? For such a Science-Fan you sure suck at logics. So what does a thought look like? What's it feel like? How big is a tought? I mean, come on man; Have you ever caught and touched a Thought? Sounds like you are more delusional than all spiritualists together in a swimmingpool full of LSD.

Thoughts are abstract. The opposite of concrete. Please find a Dictionairy and read the defenition of Abstract. You have alot still to learn. The body is concrete as is the ground, the ocean and the sky, but the Mind, it's thoughts, dreams and emotions: Those are the ABSTRACTS of life. Scientists that are mentally blindfolded for the truth denie the possible existance of almost all the abstracts of life.

This is off course very stupid and by viewing reality in this narrow, determenistic way you can research till the end of days, but you're missing out on a HUUUUUGE part of what reality really is.

The brain and the mind: 2 completely different things. The one being a physical Organ, the other being an abstract mistery. It is only speculated that the brain "generates" the mind, but how Concrete, physical Material can turn into Abstract conscious spirit; no one knows. Scientists rather avoid the question which is why they are ...how would you say that... STUPID.
There is so much to be explored in the abstract realm of existance. All scientists need to do is get rid of their pre-assumptions and ignorance towards questionable, abstract matters in life and look into them without assumptions and with an open mind and curiosity. Instead they turn their back on these questions and, without any conclusive research, declare these matters "bullshit". How full of shit they are.

Be open for the Truth, whatever it may be.

----------


## jamous

> Thoughts are physical? For such a Science-Fan you sure suck at logics. So what does a thought look like? What's it feel like? How big is a tought? I mean, come on man; Have you ever caught and touched a Thought? Sounds like you are more delusional than all spiritualists together in a swimmingpool full of LSD.
> 
> Thoughts are abstract. The opposite of concrete. Please find a Dictionairy and read the defenition of Abstract. You have alot still to learn. The body is concrete as is the ground, the ocean and the sky, but the Mind, it's thoughts, dreams and emotions: Those are the ABSTRACTS of life. Scientists that are mentally blindfolded for the truth denie the possible existance of almost all the abstracts of life.
> 
> This is off course very stupid and by viewing reality in this narrow, determenistic way you can research till the end of days, but you're missing out on a HUUUUUGE part of what reality really is.
> 
> The brain and the mind: 2 completely different things. The one being a physical Organ, the other being an abstract mistery. It is only speculated that the brain "generates" the mind, but how Concrete, physical Material can turn into Abstract conscious spirit; no one knows. Scientists rather avoid the question which is why they are ...how would you say that... STUPID.
> There is so much to be explored in the abstract realm of existance. All scientists need to do is get rid of their pre-assumptions and ignorance towards questionable, abstract matters in life and look into them without assumptions and with an open mind and curiosity. Instead they turn their back on these questions and, without any conclusive research, declare these matters "bullshit". How full of shit they are.
> 
> Be open for the Truth, whatever it may be.




I don't know if they're _stupid_, but yea, you're very right, thoughts and the mind are indeed different than the brain, the abstract representation of the tangeable or physical. 

almost like this I guess, "brain" is to "mind" as "physical" is to "spiritual" as "hallucinations" might be to "NDEs" as the tangeable physical is to the abstract

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## LucidDreamGod

I've seen that episode that doen't prove OBE's wrong it may say that some exeperiences are false, I mean if you tell someone to see somehting they will see it, it's just those people arn't used to telling their minds to do something so they have never done it and when they do it the first time, they someone think it's paranormal.

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## Adrenaline Junkie

I personally don't believe in OBE's or NDE's because they are all too similar to dreams or hallucinations. Think about it, if you are religious and have say followed the bible most of your life and are a good person, you are expecting to get into what the religion calls heaven, now if you are about to die you may have accepted death and the most dominant thought is most likely going to be heaven and just like with a dream you can think about something before you go to bed and dream about it. Its similar and like they said with the brain being depreived of blood you will probably hallucinate or black out and to see such strange things would be normal, nothing paranormal or what not. Well thats my two cents on the video.

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## Mocari

> It doesn't mean philosophy is always right.
> 
> Science is trustworthy because of the scientific method. It excludes almost every possibility of a wrong thesis.
> Even for that reason, psychology took years to become a science. Nowadays, it's limited to concepts, since psychological theses always involuntarily touch the concepts of perception, awareness, ethics, and all that's related to it. That is mostly social science: social science is the study of how society developed and how it functions to us. That's why I still think psychiatry is better (although I do not agree with a lot of it).



This debate is currently one of the most important ones, if not the most influential, between philosophy and science.
We have shown two sides of this debate and i hope it won't go ignored and will inspire people to think about and question their existence; their beliefs, goals, actions, everything, as they feel fit.
There are multiple answers to our questions though only one may be right to any of us, and i think Kromoh and i can agree we may all pick a different answer based on our current situation. 

So i hope we will all respect each others views on this in the knowledge we would believe as others do when in their position and that many more people will open up and show their colors concerning everything real or unreal, without feeling threatened by other views as in the end who determines whether You are really right or wrong is still You.

If anyone wishes to enrich our views i hope they will have the courage to speak up. The lack of responses hurt me, as i see people telling You how to live without knowing life. If there is something You feel insecure about but think You disagree with or want to ask or add, You can always IM me to keep it between us and i will respond when and if i can without stigma. I am still limited but will do my best to find the way to our ideal situation, as any of us.

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## jamous

> I personally don't believe in OBE's or NDE's because they are all too similar to dreams or hallucinations.



you're right. I am about positive they should be under the same category. But I tend to believe that dreams and hallucinations are, on some levels, of spiritual or religious significance. I have experienced very vague instances of prophetic dreaming, which I find just compelling enough to allow me to believe there might be such a thing, though I also have normal, meaningless dreams.

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## Oneironaught

> I personally don't believe in OBE's or NDE's because they are all too similar to dreams or hallucinations. Think about it, if you are religious and have say followed the bible most of your life and are a good person, you are expecting to get into what the religion calls heaven, now if you are about to die you may have accepted death and the most dominant thought is most likely going to be heaven and just like with a dream you can think about something before you go to bed and dream about it. Its similar and like they said with the brain being depreived of blood you will probably hallucinate or black out and to see such strange things would be normal, nothing paranormal or what not. Well thats my two cents on the video.



I agree. The only difference I have in my view is that OBEs and NDEs _are_ real. So I have to believe in their existence as far as experiences goes. I just think that aren't the same "type" of experiences as what their names imply. Like you, I think that they are merely hallucinogenic, dream-like experiences misinterpreted and misunderstood.

----------


## jamous

> I agree. The only difference I have in my view is that OBEs and NDEs _are_ real. So I have to believe in their existence as far as experiences goes. I just think that aren't the same "type" of experiences as what their names imply. Like you, I think that they are merely hallucinogenic, dream-like experiences misinterpreted and misunderstood.



Yes, I was gonna point that out. They ARE _real_. Penn and Teller were sort of proving it in there video actually. They were also saying, like you, that they are just hallucinations. I don't think NDEs or OOBEs prove or disprove anything spiritual at all. They probably are just dreams or hallucinations, but that doesn't mean anything.

----------


## Kromoh

> Thoughts are physical? For such a Science-Fan you sure suck at logics. So what does a thought look like? What's it feel like? How big is a tought? I mean, come on man; Have you ever caught and touched a Thought? Sounds like you are more delusional than all spiritualists together in a swimmingpool full of LSD.
> 
> Thoughts are abstract. The opposite of concrete. Please find a Dictionairy and read the defenition of Abstract. You have alot still to learn. The body is concrete as is the ground, the ocean and the sky, but the Mind, it's thoughts, dreams and emotions: Those are the ABSTRACTS of life. Scientists that are mentally blindfolded for the truth denie the possible existance of almost all the abstracts of life.
> 
> This is off course very stupid and by viewing reality in this narrow, determenistic way you can research till the end of days, but you're missing out on a HUUUUUGE part of what reality really is.
> 
> The brain and the mind: 2 completely different things. The one being a physical Organ, the other being an abstract mistery. It is only speculated that the brain "generates" the mind, but how Concrete, physical Material can turn into Abstract conscious spirit; no one knows. Scientists rather avoid the question which is why they are ...how would you say that... STUPID.
> There is so much to be explored in the abstract realm of existance. All scientists need to do is get rid of their pre-assumptions and ignorance towards questionable, abstract matters in life and look into them without assumptions and with an open mind and curiosity. Instead they turn their back on these questions and, without any conclusive research, declare these matters "bullshit". How full of shit they are.
> 
> Be open for the Truth, whatever it may be.




All I saw in your post was messing around concepts.

Science does not only study what's concrete (not in your definition of concrete, I mean).

Have you ever caught light? How big is it? Could you touch it? I wouldn't call light concrete, and yet science can and does explai it.

The same comes with thoughts. The brain creates a complex (and I mean really complex, impossible to completely map) system of actions and reactions that creates thought. What you see with your eyes is analysed by your brain, then it is made conscious (which means it is projected to other parts of the brain) and, if there is any correspondence (e.g. a cat reminding you of your own pet) the information will be processed and also brought up to consciousness. Again, it is a complex system of action and reaction.

Of course that is an example, the mind works in several varied ways, which somehow challenge psychiatry, but you cannot say thoughts aren't proven by science.


Scientists DO look at things with curiosity. The difference is that they do not believe any explanatio nthey hear of. If it isn't logical, a skeptical one is likely not to believe it. It doesn't mean, though, that that one completely denies the subject or that he is close minded: he just used common sense as to what to believe or not. Believing everything is a bad thing, and has only one result: brainwashing (see www.godhatesfags.com for an example of religious brainwashing).


People always come up with blatantly senseless rationalizations about what they don't know. And their fear for the unknown usually creates explanations involving gods, ghosts, spirit, psi powers and all the boring stuff.
One with minimal common sense will not believe everything they see. Skepticism is not like saying "I don't and never will believe it". Skepticism is saying "I do not believe it unless it has some logical explanation".

Yes, Penn and Teller are somehow lacking manners when explaining things, but everything I've heard from them so far is completely meaningful and rational.

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## jamous

Reviewing the video, I would say my main problem with it [aside from them being smug dicks] is that it really seems like they are being hypocritical, not just about the "out to make a buck" thing, but in that they seem to see the information gathered as proof against an afterlife, while they are complaining that people see it as proof that there is. Like Dr. Moody says, that believers and nonbelievers are the same. It doesn't prove anything one way or another. Science cannot touch spirituality or at least cannot yet touch it. The tangeable, physiological brain versus the abstract and in this case specifically spiritual goings-on in the mind.

I hope that makes sense. And if I'm misinterpereting Penn's point call me on it.

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## Kromoh

I think he means that the nonbelievers use science, while the believers don't

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## LucidFlanders

> Yes, I was gonna point that out. They ARE _real_. Penn and Teller were sort of proving it in there video actually. They were also saying, like you, that they are just hallucinations. I don't think NDEs or OOBEs prove or disprove anything spiritual at all. They probably are just dreams or hallucinations, but that doesn't mean anything.



Hallucinations yes, but could be a preview of whatever the afterlife is. If it wasn't a hallucination you're dead for good. Because you dont die forever you get a glimpse of what is ahead of you in a form of hallucination but not a science term which would be fake images.

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## Placebo

Kromoh: I agree with you on a lot of points with a few exceptions.
The main one being your view that what science cannot prove, is highly unlikely to exist.

I get the distinct impression based on statements like 'God does not exist' that you take that to the point of not being truly skeptical any more (ie questioning/doubting)

Lucid dreaming was one of those things that scientists laughed at as ridiculous kooky stuff, for quite a long time.
Turns out it was true. 

If you were living in those days, would you have said 'lucid dreaming doesn't happen', just as a matter of scientific principle?

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## Kromoh

> If you were living in those days, would you have said 'lucid dreaming doesn't happen', just as a matter of scientific principle?



Lol. I don't base my views on what scientists think, but on what scientifical evidence there is for them. Lucid dreaming si often associated with all that new age stuff, but the concept of it is actually quite possible - counsciousness when one's dreaming. Yes, I'd not immediately believe it if there was no scientifical backing to it, and that's the point of having an argument in my opinion.

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## Placebo

Ah, fair enough. You're more cynical about things that aren't easily conceivable as possibilities, hence your attitude about OOBE and God -> Occam's razor and all that.
The God part would be debatable for theists, but I get your drift.

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## jsmith65

> Try searching for 'God Proved Wrong' videos. Im sure theres a few also



Ha! You can't prove God wrong or right. It's something called faith. It's the way God meant it to be. Humans will never know for sure if there is or isn't a God. There is no way to prove it. Now, I know there is a God, but it's not because it's been proven. It's because I have faith.

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## Forsaken

Holy resurrecting threads from yesteryear.

That said, OOBEs are easy to prove.... if they're real. Just have an OOBEer walk their soul into the next room to read a message, or just see what object is on a table or some such, which they couldn't see with their physical eyes. Or have them relay a secret message to another OOBEer. Tah Da!!! OOBEs proven real. Why hasn't this been done? Conspiracy? Can OOBEs not be done for a scientific study for some reason?

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## LucidFlanders

> Ha! You can't prove God wrong or right. It's something called faith. It's the way God meant it to be. Humans will never know for sure if there is or isn't a God. There is no way to prove it. Now, I know there is a God, but it's not because it's been proven. It's because I have faith.




That's a terrible answer. What makes faith more real then unable to prove god's real or not? there is no answer, not even faith can give you an answer, it's just your bias. What good is bias? you want a real answer, not just an answer to satisfy yourself untill your faith runs out.

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## Placebo

> Ha! You can't prove God wrong or right. It's something called faith. It's the way God meant it to be. Humans will never know for sure if there is or isn't a God. There is no way to prove it. Now, I know there is a God, but it's not because it's been proven. It's because I have faith.



Since we want to sling religious things around over here... how about you look up Hebrews 11:1. 




> *"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld"
> *



*
*
Notice the words 'assured' and 'evident', indicating some level of evidence to lead you to believe it, not some gut feeling just because it makes you feel good or correct.
Your definition of faith is a bit flawed, even by the Bible's standards
Nice try though

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## Hukif

lol that doesn't prove OBEs wrong, it just says that people have extremly vivid dreams at certain states.

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## mini0991

What would prove OBEs wrong once and for all is selecting a random playing card, putting it down on a glass table, inducing one, and then looking under the table in your OBE to see what card it is. Wake up, and see what the card really was.

You only have a 1 in 52 chance of it being correct, because OBEs do not exist.

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## Naiya

How do they explain OBEs which happen when the person _isn't_ near death or nutrient deprived? All that does is prove that the brain is doing something while you're in that state, and that there's another way to induce a type of it. (Besides naturally being close to death, taking all kinds of drugs, sleeping, meditation, ect. )

So...if I can induce a certain state in a person one way, then any other way must not exist, right? Mkay. Well, since you can have an orgasm through masturbation, I guess intercourse doesn't exist! That's right! those people who say they can do it, they're just lying to you. 


Also, I've seen a lot of these...people think that just because you zap the brain and trick it into thinking something, the real sensation doesn't exist. 

Here, lemme zap your brain and make you hear voices. If I can do that, I've just proved that real sounds don't exist, amirite?!  ::D: 

See how the logic here is completely backwards?

Oh yeah, and...I like the show, but come on. It's not scientific. It's entertainment, like mythbusters. I've actually gone and done research papers on the subject. The best I can find is that scientists link OBE to a state of dissociation because they have similar descriptions and the same parts of the brain are active. It helps to explain things somewhat, but we're a long way from saying it's "fake" or the same as LD. 

I mean in one episode, they "proved" that a hugely fat guy was more healthy than a fit guy because the fat guy could run faster. That doesn't define one's health.

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## Shift

The video's down  :Sad: 

I am more than willing to believe in out-of-body experiences, but I think that the majority of the ones people refer to on here are simply dreams that they don't have a body. Not lucid dreams, because then they'd realize that that's all it was- a dream. I don't think it has a spiritual basis at all. The mind is clearly more amazing and capable of such things than we can imagine. My problem is being able to believe in something else over that relatively simple explanation. The minute that someone can induce an OBE or AP into my bedroom and tell me what is hidden under the crap on my shelf in my closet, well, I am going to convert into a huge fan of OBEs. It seems like this is a relatively simple task for APers or whatever people who induce/believe in OBEs call themselves, but if that's the case then why is there NO commonly-accepted peer-reviewed scientific evidence? (If I am incorrect please point me in the direction of these papers, I would love to read them) People would LOVE to be able to provide scientific evidence in favor of the soul, or the consciousness and concept-of-self not being a product of the brain. So I am skeptical.

It is easier for me to believe in Lucid Dreaming than OBE. Clearly the largest factor is that I've experienced it for myself. I've also experienced dreams in which I do not have a body, but I realize that these are dreams. Another reason I think Lucid Dreams are more believable than the concept of consciousness existing outside of the body (due to a soul or whatever), is that we "KNOW" that dreaming exists, nearly everyone experiences it, there is some (though not as much as I wish) science for it. Same goes for "consciousness", although people love to argue about what exactly that means. The fact is that the majority of us can say that we have a sense of self, a sense of awareness, however you define that "consciousness", during lucids that we don't experience in the majority of our dreams and that we also experience in real life. It is easy for me to believe that it is a matter of timing, that these two can coincide and that they are not mutually exclusive.

It is more of a stretch of the mind to think that your consciousness can exist without your brain, than to think that some neurons responsible for your consciousness can "wake up" while you are still in the dream state. So we know both those things are possible, it's just the timing that is unusual, that consciousness and dreaming can happen at the same time. But in the case of OBEs, well, yea... That's like debating that a car was on the railroad track when it got hit by a train (we know all these things exist, it's a matter of timing), versus a UFO flew down and levitated the car into the railroad track as the train was approaching. We don't have any proof of UFOs so that is much harder to buy into.

Meh, but I am hoping someone somewhere can prove me wrong. I would love for there to be another realm of experience for me to pursue.

----------


## mini0991

It's much easier to believe LDing because it's been proven. Astral projection is something that just has to be accepted by faith.

Why don't they do the eye-movement experiments that Laberge did on people who claim they AP? If the eyes still move in a pattern, OBEs are an LD theme.

----------


## Shift

> It's much easier to believe LDing because it's been proven. Astral projection is something that just has to be accepted by faith.
> 
> Why don't they do the eye-movement experiments that Laberge did on people who claim they AP? If the eyes still move in a pattern, OBEs are an LD theme.



Just have someone float next door and tell you what's in the other room. It's foolproof, it's irrefutable if it's not falsified. That's all I need. I don't believe in OBEs being more than anything but actually in your own head (a matter of perception, just like a dream) and not truly out of body, I am highly skeptical of AP. But it would be so _simple!_
I dunno, the LaBerge study needs to be duplicated a few times so it gains more merit. Most of the cognitive psychologists I've spoken to still don't buy into it.  :Sad:

----------


## scubba

> Actually you can show that you can be given a task and remember to do that task once you are asleep. LaBerge did experiments where he made up some eye movement patterns for his subjects to do, and they remembered to do them once they were asleep. He was able to see their physical eyes move in those patterns while the subject was asleep.



And did you no that they did experiments with astral projection too? huh.
And yeah they can prove it :/ FLAMED

----------


## Forsaken

> Just have someone float next door and tell you what's in the other room. It's foolproof, it's irrefutable if it's not falsified. That's all I need. I don't believe in OBEs being more than anything but actually in your own head (a matter of perception, just like a dream) and not truly out of body, I am highly skeptical of AP. But it would be so _simple!_
> I dunno, the LaBerge study needs to be duplicated a few times so it gains more merit. Most of the cognitive psychologists I've spoken to still don't buy into it.



Exactly! AP is even easier to prove than LD, as easy to prove as proving that you can see what's in front of you. Yet this hasn't ever been done in a scientific setting, I wonder why......

----------


## LucidFlanders

> What would prove OBEs wrong once and for all is selecting a random playing card, putting it down on a glass table, inducing one, and then looking under the table in your OBE to see what card it is. Wake up, and see what the card really was.
> 
> You only have a 1 in 52 chance of it being correct, because OBEs do not exist.



"It was this one"
"Wow, that is correct"
"It was this one"
"Wow, that is correct"
"It was this one"
"Wow, that is correct"
"It was this one"
"Wow, that is correct"
"It was this one"
"Wow, that is correct"
"It was this one"
"Wow, that is correct"


Couincidence, right? ::roll:: 


What about shared dreams? reality we live in is pretty much a shared dream because it's all created by our brains and we are all connected to the same one (same illusion). Dreaming wont really be any different. Sure, it's memory you are falling back to, but you are still connected to everyone else, and see what everyone else see's unless you got some issues with your brain then you see things others can't see.

----------


## llclarkyll

I've had lucid dreams for as long as I can remember and up untill about 4 years ago I now occasionally have OBE's.  The experience of waking up as your going through sleep paralysis and then slowly projecting has to be experienced first hand to understand.  My thoughts on this subject change all the time but at the moment this is what I believe happens..

When we dream, we go into slee paralysis and dream and sometimes things can become triggers and you become lucid within that dream.  However... if you wake up during paralysis (mentally) then you can go iether way.. if you let yourself go, you'll find youself slipping into a dream but if you consciously decided to try and project during sleep paralysis, you'll find that you'll be able to go the other way.  A lot of it boils down to when you become aware and where you want to go with it.

----------


## supreme

I have never believed in true OOBE's and never will!
I do have an open mind about something like that *'maybe'*
happening at the point of death or almost death, but I'll 
never believe someone can actually remove themselves 
from their body and just go over to someones actual 
house....or whatever. lol
I don't believe in shared dreams either.
Why did they remove the video though...I didn't get to see it??

----------


## supreme

> I've had lucid dreams for as long as I can remember and up untill about 4 years ago I now occasionally have OBE's.  The experience of waking up as your going through sleep paralysis and then slowly projecting has to be experienced first hand to understand.  My thoughts on this subject change all the time but at the moment this is what I believe happens..
> 
> When we dream, we go into slee paralysis and dream and sometimes things can become triggers and you become lucid within that dream.  However... if you wake up during paralysis (mentally) then you can go iether way.. if you let yourself go, you'll find youself slipping into a dream but if you consciously decided to try and project during sleep paralysis, you'll find that you'll be able to go the other way.  A lot of it boils down to when you become aware and where you want to go with it.



omg this is exactly how I lucid dream!! It's how I've always done it!!
It's as if your going out of body when you project, but its only the 
way you initiate the LD!
You cant know how happy I am that someone else does it like me!
I was beginning to feel like a 'freak LDer'! lol  ::lol:: 
The only thing i am not clear on though, is if you think youre actually
out of body or just initiating a lucid dream this way?





> What would prove OBEs wrong once and for all is selecting a random playing card, putting it down on a glass table, inducing one, and then looking under the table in your OBE to see what card it is. Wake up, and see what the card really was.
> 
> You only have a 1 in 52 chance of it being correct, because OBEs do not exist.



lol





> Think, you can not PROVE lucid dreams exist! I defy you to prove lucid dreams exist! If you believe in something that outlandish why doubt those who say they do have OOBE?



What's so difficult about believing in a dream?
People can believe in lucid dreaming because you are saying it is just a dream,
and that's believable. OOBE's are unbelievable and fall into the realm of the
supernatural.

----------


## Exonerated.'.

OOBEs occur "in your head". Its the nature of the phenomenon. The perception of leaving your body while OOBEing is a semi-false perception based on a lifetime of depending on physical sensory input. 

Does this make an OOBE unreal? On the contrary, this is what makes it more real. After all, the perception of the entire cosmos surrounding us takes place "in our heads".

The true wonder of an OOBE is the depth of mind. How deeply the sea of the mind runs beneath the turbulant surface of conscious thought. It is a deply moving experience.

"It's all in your head, but you have no idea how BIG your head is!"

----------


## supreme

Once, my mother's heart stopped on the operating table. She, at this time,
apparently had an OOBE that she believes was real to this day. I was always 
skeptical about this and I know now that as long as there is medical support,
the brain can still function when the heart stops and apparently even without
medical support sometimes for a very short time. Of course it can, otherwise 
anyone having their heart restarted would be vegetables or brain dead. 
I don't believe you can restart the brain once it is dead. I believe my mother 
had a crazy dream that meant to her that she was dead and in the afterlife for 
a few seconds. 
Why she thinks this dream occurred at the moment her heart stopped, I don't 
know, or why she had a dream about heaven at this time I dont know either. 
Anyhow I still believe it was a dream and nothing more, but I would
never tell her this though. I tell her, I believe her. Why shatter her beliefs,
it's easy enough to to that on your own.
(man you should hear what she thinks happened to her when she went to
heaven! It would freak out anyone who is religious! She's Catholic.)





> if reality is all quantum anyway then we haven't existed yet and this is a dream someone else is having and they don't exist either. You are a delusion, a mere hallucination of an hallucination. Enjoy your stay!



Well I wish to hell that someone would hallucinate a hallucination of a 
hallucination of me being a millionaire then!  ::D:

----------


## supreme

> I've had tons of LDs where I was with someone from real life, and I actually thought it was them. I then realized we might be dream sharing, so I did a few things to see if they would remember it.
> 
> One day I woke up after a dream share with my mom, and realized she had been at work for the entire time I had been dreaming. So it was all in my head.
> 
> I'd like to think dream sharing is possible, but very very very unlikely. Anything's possible until proven right or wrong.



haha I have done a similar experiment myself...with the same results.  :smiley: 





> Although some near death experiences may be nothing more than a very vivid dream or something a person is imagining, I think it would be a little hard to refute someone who actually left their body and then hovered over their body and watched what happened to their body while they were dead for a brief time, and who are later able to explain to other people what they saw happening.



I have never read any account of this that I believe. The accounts are too
fuzzy! Anyone can dream up the exact scene and people that is happening
around them at the time of death. If I were at the scene of a car crash,
and there was a dead body there, and then this person came back to life
before they even knew what actually happened besides that they saw a
car coming at them....then nothing.....and then that person said to me,
a blue ford truck hit me and in it were two women, a boy and a girl and
a baby, and one woman is dead, and the truck is backwards in the ditch 
behind me to the left, and I saw you stop here in your little red car, and 
you walked straight over here to me first........then I'd probably be a believer.
But if they said....I was hovering above the crash, and I saw the ambulance
come, and medics all about, and the car over there and bla bla bla. Just
not enough info for me.





> The first time I came tumbling back into my body after having been out of it, and the first time I woke up to find myself floating above my body and being conscious of both my spirit which was floating above my body, and at same time being conscious of my body which was laying in the bed, was all I needed to be convinced that I am more than a body, and that a spirit does indeed exist on the inside of me which is capable of leaving my body at times.



I do this every time. I leave my body into a lucid dream. I can float up
above my body and then I can then look at my body still lying there in
bed. I have done this. It's just a lucid dream. The only way you can ever
prove to me that you are actually really OOB, is by flying over to my
house, tell me what time it is on my clock at the time, turn on my tv,
turn on my stereo, and then tell me what I did when all that happened
at my house for no scientific reason. Of course though, I have to be 
here as well. I know you don't know me or where i live, but its the only
way you're ever going to get me to believe you, even though you don't
care if i do or i don't.





> Maybe it is an illusion and there really is nothing and life is really a mistake. 1 life and nothing after would obviously mean we are a mistake..there is no point to even exist especially if you die at or just after birth because the rest of the time it is nothingness from something forever.



A tree hasn't a soul. If a soulless tree dies, it doesn't have an afterlife.
Was that tree a mistake then?

(This is the last post I'll quote.....I swear!  ::lol:: 
But this thread is severely interesting to me,
I'm glad someone revived it!)  ::D:

----------


## scubba

> omg this is exactly how I lucid dream!! It's how I've always done it!!
> It's as if your going out of body when you project, but its only the 
> way you initiate the LD!
> You cant know how happy I am that someone else does it like me!
> I was beginning to feel like a 'freak LDer'! lol 
> The only thing i am not clear on though, is if you think youre actually
> out of body or just initiating a lucid dream this way?
> 
> 
> ...



i wish i could stab you, your an idiot. They can prove LDing because you can learn from it. You can see things hidden just like RVing in astral projection, and guess what? the goverment has RVers to find "st0ff".And yes RVing is proven you homo.    


FLAMED!

----------


## Shift

> i wish i could stab you, your an idiot. They can prove LDing because you can learn from it. You can see things hidden just like RVing in astral projection, and guess what? the goverment has RVers to find "st0ff".And yes RVing is proven you homo.    
> 
> 
> FLAMED!



Sources? I would like to read about that.

----------


## gigaschatten

There are things you can neither prove nor disprove. You have to experience an OBE to understand. Can you disprove the spirit? Can you disprove the existence of a soul that can act independently from the body it occupies? Can you disprove consciousness?

No, you can't, the same as you can't prove it. But you can experience it nevertheless. Therefore it is real, even if you call it illusion.

----------


## Casyle

Ugh, I've seen that joke video before.

There's a *small* problem.  If OBE's are nothing more than dreamlike states, than how, praytell, do people who have no brainwave activity have OBE's?  

People with no discernable brainwave activities have reported OBE's.  I've yet to see any of these skeptics confront that problem and explain it.

I was watching a show where a scientist who believed that OBE's are just dreams/hallucinations, and everyone of the people on the show said their OBE's felt unique, they did not feel like dreams.

----------


## spaceexplorer

Anyone interested in paranormal or OBE experience should read up on the career of Susan Blackmoore. 
She is an English scientist who at a young age experienced a convincing OBE.
She then decided to spend her career trying to find evidence to prove various paranormal experiences. In the 80s she was somewhat famous in the field.

Eventually, as a GOOD scientist and a person with a flexible, humble mind.
She finally gave up on looking for evidence. Because after a career of searching, after a long futile fight coming up again and again with the same fuzzy logic, charlatans, and deluded people. She couldn't find any evidence to support thier claims.

If find her story fascinating, because she was coming from the perspective of a BELIVER, not a skeptic. She wanted to prove these things. BUT because she was a good scientist, one who accepted the evidence, eventually she became very skeptical.

here's a short article by her explaining herself: http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/NS2000.html

I recommend reading other material on her site (there is some on lucid dreaming) she's a very intelligent genuine woman. A scientist in the true sense of the word.

----------


## spaceexplorer

oh i spelt her name wrong it's Susan Blackmore,

And here's an article of hers on lucid dreaming....

http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/si91ld.html

Fantastic woman.

----------


## supreme

> i wish i could stab you, your an idiot. They can prove LDing because you can learn from it. You can see things hidden just like RVing in astral projection, and guess what? the goverment has RVers to find "st0ff".And yes RVing is proven you homo.    
> 
> 
> FLAMED!



What the hell are you talking about??  I didnt say one damned 
thing about proof!! I only said LDs are far more 'believable' for the 
layman to believe, then OOBE's are, because theyre dreams....true
OOBE's are not, theyre paranormal. 


Also I will read the articles from Susan Blackmore.

----------


## spaceexplorer

> i wish i could stab you, your an idiot. They can prove LDing because you can learn from it. You can see things hidden just like RVing in astral projection, and guess what? the goverment has RVers to find "st0ff".And yes RVing is proven you homo.    
> 
> 
> FLAMED!








> Sources? I would like to read about that.



Ha! unfortunatly Shift,  i doubt someone who talks like that has Sources. Other than maybe, the voices in thier head and thier telly-tubby action figures.  :tongue2:

----------


## moonshine

> Ha! You can't prove God wrong or right. It's something called faith. It's the way God meant it to be. Humans will never know for sure if there is or isn't a God. There is no way to prove it. Now, I know there is a God, but it's not because it's been proven. It's because I have faith.



So you don't find the whole "faith" thing a tad convenient then?  ::roll::

----------


## TheMoon

> http://youtube.com/watch?v=714AS39CQ_I
> 
> I knew it, there's no such thing as Near Death or Out of Body experiences.
> 
> Apparently all they are, are extremely vivid and dreamlike delusional  hallucinations due to nutrient and blood loss from the brain. So... the ultimate lucid dreams.



I assume you never had a OBE before?

I almost did once.

I woke up one night in SP, i started lucid dreaming, woke up, lucid dream, ect.

Then i woke up one time, and i felt my spirit attempting to leave my body....

I was wide awake and not hallucinating. When you experience that for the first time, you will know its real  :smiley: 

I still of course have not left my body, but one day, i'm not ready just yet. But it is real.

----------


## spaceexplorer

> I assume you never had a OBE before?
> 
> I almost did once.
> 
> I woke up one night in SP, i started lucid dreaming, woke up, lucid dream, ect.
> 
> Then i woke up one time, and i felt my spirit attempting to leave my body....
> 
> I was wide awake and not hallucinating. When you experience that for the first time, you will know its real 
> ...



I _expect_ you were _fast asleep_ and having a convincing false awakening. 

There is a good rule to use in life: the simplest answer is normally the right one.

Which requires less leaps of faith, assumptions, and revising of the basic laws of physics?

a) you were dreaming, a very vivid dream that you had woken up, then in the dream you dreamt you were leaving your body. (of course you could have been in sleep paralysis and entering the dreaming state)

b) there is a soul, that soul can exist independantly of the body (despite there being no evidence and it defying all laws of physics and biology) - AND that you just happened to have woken from a dream (coincidence??? - what with dreaming being a very convincing experience) and then "left your body"

Explanation (a) requires no new laws of physics and fits perfectly into what we know about the universe.
Explanation (b) requires rewriting almost all the major sciences.

What is more likely?
Hundreds of years of human science being wrong (the same science that you daily use, for your phone, television, car, even talking here online)
Or you incorrectly assuming you were awake.
?

It's a little arrogant to think "the whole world is wrong and i'm right."

Remember that being convinced by something don't make it true.
Just ask any person who has suffered extreme mental illness. 
Not to mention, the whole area of lucid dreaming is about learning to understand that how real something feels has no actual standing on how real something is. That's why we do reality checks.

----------


## TheMoon

> a) you were dreaming, a very vivid dream that you had woken up, then in the dream you dreamt you were leaving your body. (of course you could have been in sleep paralysis and entering the dreaming state)



No i was awake, i know the difference between a false awaking and being awake.

Ive been having lucid dreams and false awakenings my whole life.

I was awake in the real world and felt my spirit leaving my body.

You of course don't have to believe me, but anyone who has had a OBE will know this to be true  :smiley: 

Another thing, when your in a False Awaking, you think your really awake in real life at that time. However, when you wake up you realize that it was just a FA....

If it was just a FA i had, i would not be talking in this thread right now.





> Explanation (b) requires rewriting almost all the major sciences.



Well we shouldn't keep going on believing in a false reality just because we don't want to rewrite the science books to express the truth rather then false facts.





> It's a little arrogant to think "the whole world is wrong and i'm right."



It doesn't matter either way if i'm wrong or right, the worlds still turning, and one day we will all be dead. So its better now to learn about whats going to happen when we die, then to live in ignorance and never learn what may be, until its too late to learn anymore.

Ignorance is bliss, until the box you put yourself in falls apart, and your not ready to accept what is really true and what really is not true.

I don't know for a fact if we have spirits or not. But i feel its ignorant to think that's its not a possibility. And to dismiss what everyone says just because you don't want the box you built around yourself to fall down  :smiley:

----------


## spaceexplorer

> No i was awake, i know the difference between a false awaking and being awake.
> 
> Ive been having lucid dreams and false awakenings my whole life.
> 
> I was awake in the real world and felt my spirit leaving my body.
> 
> You of course don't have to believe me, but anyone who has had a OBE will know this to be true 
> 
> Another thing, when your in a False Awaking, you think your really awake in real life at that time. However, when you wake up you realize that it was just a FA....
> ...




How rude of you to assume i dismiss what everyone says, or that i am "in a box"

Actually i'd give anything for such things to be true.
HOWEVER. I want the way i see the world to be based on facts and truth.
If something i want to believe in turns out to be false, im willing to move on and let it go, not to try and make the world fit my view.

I am 40 years old. For my whole life i've studied these sorts of things. 
I have yet once to have found anything that even comes close to evidence of these things being true.

Yes there are plenty of stories.
But almost all of them fall apart when you scratch the surface.

I'd rather live in a world of reality than a world of fantasy, that's why i keep asking questions, i want to get to the bottom of it.
If there is another realm beyond death, then brilliant i'll be the happiest person alive. I will not however, accept dodgey facts, or just "faith"

If there were some kind of OBE experience, why do we not see it in the natural world?
Wouldn't it be a massive evolutionary advantage for a hunter or prey to be able to astral travel and see where its prey is before it hunts?
Everything else in nature that has a use has been taken advantage of by evolution. Yet i dont see any psychic lions.

Oddly enough. What you don't know is that i have had a full scale OBE in my life (back when i was 25).
It wasnt just waking up from a dream. It occured during surgery gone wrong (car crash), and i was actually clinically dead for about a minute.
Utterly convincing in every respect. However when i double checked things i'd "seen" out of the body. I discovered they were false
So don't try and tell me that just by having an experience it'll convince you.
It felt utterly real, I belived it to be true. However i took the time to investigate it, and the facts didn't hold up. I had to rethink what had happened to me. 
I still don't have an answer, but im more convinced it was some kind of mental phenomena. After all where do you think you experience "waking life" anyway? it's all just processed in your mind. The convincing reality you are seeing right now, is actually your minds model of it. 

Also, later in life i experienced a chemical used by shamans in the amazons, which gave me an identical experience to my out of body experience. Again completely convincing. I do wonder how a chemical can effect the "soul" i know for sure it effects the processing of the mind. 

So don't assume im closed minded just because i don't agree with you.
In fact im very open minded. I just rather that i dont fool myself by wishful thinking, and come away with solid hard facts. So that i can prove things to others. Not on faith, but on blatant facts. I've yet to find anythign that comes close.

----------


## juroara

I'm sorry. but no controlled experiment is proof that either OBEs or NDEs arent real

for one, you are bound to get people who claim to be having OBEs as subjects, who might be ingnorant as to what a lucid dream is

two, real NDErs aren't found in experiments, THEY ARE FOUND IN HOSPITALS. what really bothers me about people so bent on proving NDEs don't happen, is they refuse to look at the testimony of NDEs as a whole

1. many NDErs WITNESS their own operation or their death bed. they see their bodies, and they see the doctors desperately trying to save their life. and they are able to later verify this by telling the doctors things they did. like if the doctor swore.
2. many NDErs have witnessed, as well as OBErs events happening in ANOTHER ROOM that is later verified to be true
3. many NDErs, also have a life changing experience. a positive life changing experience, and its disgusting that people are out there to prove that their positive life changing experience is invalid just because they are too afraid to consider there is actually more to life

its not like NDE has you convert to christianity. a good portion of NDEs actually GO AGAINST CHRISTIANITY. The God in NDE never sends anyone to hell, and even atheists and homosexuals in NDEs have experienced 'heaven'. This has the church in an upheavel, with messages that all NDEs where a loving spirit of light tells you "no one is being sent to hell" is actually Satan!! 

we should be rejoicing, because NDEs happen more and more often, and the more often they happen, the more people question christian dogma.

no current scientific investigation to try to disprove NDE looks at all the experiences. instead they pick and choose "well, were going to ignore the testimony of seeing real time events outside the body and just focus on the tunnel vision"

thats horse crap. thats not science. you can't decide to leave out HUGE phenomenon related to NDEs just to feel you have a grasp on reality.

----------


## TheMoon

> If there were some kind of OBE experience, why do we not see it in the natural world?
> Wouldn't it be a massive evolutionary advantage for a hunter or prey to be able to astral travel and see where its prey is before it hunts?
> Everything else in nature that has a use has been taken advantage of by evolution. Yet i dont see any psychic lions.



Are we not part of the natural world? Maybe not.. i thought i was...

Yes it would be a advantage, and that's why our minds our "Evolving" to use this. Maybe being able to use psychic power's means gaining knowledge about what your trying to use first.

No creature in all of the history of earth has had our level of intelligence to recognize these types of things...





> Oddly enough. What you don't know is that i have had a full scale OBE in my life (back when i was 25).
> It wasnt just waking up from a dream. It occured during surgery gone wrong (car crash), and i was actually clinically dead for about a minute.



Your Sub Conscious is not just going to leave your body after the first minute of death, specifically if it knows that it has doctors around it trying to bring the body back to life.

Our body's and minds work separately. 

If our body dies, it doesn't mean you mind is dead as well. Maybe you had a "NDE", sure, and maybe it was just a lucid dream.

But your not the only one.... Ive been reading for years now study's about people having NDE's, coming back and telling the doctors stuff, the patient should not know.

My friend in fact, has had many many OBE's, when he comes back and starts talking to his dad or someone, and finds out that what he saw, really happened in real life.

The real question, Do you have enough proof to prove or disprove that we have a soul ?  :smiley: 

Do you? Nope, no one does, other then those who have experienced OBE's first hand, came back and found out what they saw in there OBE, was true in real life.

Those are the only people here who can say for sure.

----------


## DeathCell

Youtube.....

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## spaceexplorer

> Are we not part of the natural world? Maybe not.. i thought i was...
> 
> Yes it would be a advantage, and that's why our minds our "Evolving" to use this. Maybe being able to use psychic power's means gaining knowledge about what your trying to use first.
> 
> No creature in all of the history of earth has had our level of intelligence to recognize these types of things...
> 
> 
> 
> Your Sub Conscious is not just going to leave your body after the first minute of death, specifically if it knows that it has doctors around it trying to bring the body back to life.
> ...



Well if you seriously believe it that much.
Then go into the study of it, find evidence, prove it.
Not only would you change the world, put 6 billion people on the planet at peace, you'd also revolutionise science, almost certainly win every award under the sun, and never have to work again.
Or do you have something that is more important than that to do with your life? I can't think of anything.

I also wonder, what with there being so many intelligent, talented people on this planet, and the rewards for proving the existence of such a phenomena so great... then why arn't all the top scientists fighting tooth and nail to be the first to find evidence of such things?
Perhaps because they know that it's highly unlikely, everything we know about the world contradicts the possibility.

Seriously, think about it. If it were true, or if there were sufficent evidence to prove it were true, wouldn't the greatest minds on our planet be wanting to be the first to prove it?

Or are you going to tell me they are all too small minded?
Because even if they were, im sure there are more than enough people with the minds and greed to go after such a prize purely for financial gain.
So, why isn't this happening?

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## scubba

> Ha! unfortunatly Shift,  i doubt someone who talks like that has Sources. Other than maybe, the voices in thier head and thier telly-tubby action figures.



Lol.

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## scubba

> Well if you seriously believe it that much.
> Then go into the study of it, find evidence, prove it.
> Not only would you change the world, put 6 billion people on the planet at peace, you'd also revolutionise science, almost certainly win every award under the sun, and never have to work again.
> Or do you have something that is more important than that to do with your life? I can't think of anything.
> 
> I also wonder, what with there being so many intelligent, talented people on this planet, and the rewards for proving the existence of such a phenomena so great... then why arn't all the top scientists fighting tooth and nail to be the first to find evidence of such things?
> Perhaps because they know that it's highly unlikely, everything we know about the world contradicts the possibility.
> 
> Seriously, think about it. If it were true, or if there were sufficent evidence to prove it were true, wouldn't the greatest minds on our planet be wanting to be the first to prove it?
> ...



you have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

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## Shift

> Lol.



I notice you didn't quote me. Do you have any sources that you can share? I really would like to read them. I may be highly skeptical but I'd still like to believe that it is possible and that AP exists, who doesn't?

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## tekkendreams

i seriously believe in OOBE when i found about lucid dreams and practiced becoming lucid i had an OOBE and ill never forget that night i still know each microsecond that happen it scared the shit out of me and was the weirdest experience ive ever had at the same time the best experience.

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## spaceexplorer

> you have no idea what you are talking about, do you?



Oh i'm sorry are the long words confusing you?

There are these thing people do when they are discussing a subject and don't agree...
One's called manners.
The second is either backing up yout statement with facts or sounds argument.

If you disagree with what i say, take my points and make a clear informed argument as to why you disagree.

This isn't kindergarden. If you've got facts and solid argument, please share them. I and a lot of the people leaning towards skepticism on this point would be more than happy to reevaluate our position if you can come up with something more convincing than poorly constructed childish one liners.

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## spaceexplorer

> Are we not part of the natural world? Maybe not.. i thought i was...
> 
> Yes it would be a advantage, and that's why our minds our "Evolving" to use this. Maybe being able to use psychic power's means gaining knowledge about what your trying to use first.



Of course we are part of the natural world (I never claimed otherwise).   
There is not a single case of a proven telepathic or psychic phenomena among humans or any other animal possessing skills that stands up to even the most simple scrutiny. If there was or had been, it would have been on the front page of every newspaper and magazine on the planet. 







> No creature in all of the history of earth has had our level of intelligence to recognize these types of things...



Bats do not understand Sonar or Aerodynamics, but they are masters of both.

My point is, nature will take ANY advantage how small and use it.  Yet there are no examples of psychic animals (human or otherwise) yet there are examples of plenty of creatures that use technologys humans have only just started to master: sonar, electricity, magnetic fields etc etc.






> Your Sub Conscious is not just going to leave your body after the first minute of death, specifically if it knows that it has doctors around it trying to bring the body back to life.



So you're basically trying to tell me, that you're willing to believe an experience YOU had after waking up from a dream as genuine, but not that of someone who actually got far closer to the death experience than yourself? Seriously, if you were reading this conversation as an outsider which would you consider a more convincing case?






> Our body's and minds work separately.



No, No they don't.
The human organism is a holistic system. Each organ (including the brain) works dynamicaly with the whole system.






> But your not the only one.... Ive been reading for years now study's about people having NDE's, coming back and telling the doctors stuff, the patient should not know.
> My friend in fact, has had many many OBE's, when he comes back and starts talking to his dad or someone, and finds out that what he saw, really happened in real life.



Other than the books in new age shops (of which you can find a book that will tell you virutally anything is possible) what sources do you have and do you mind sharing them please?






> The real question, Do you have enough proof to prove or disprove that we have a soul ?



That's not the point. It falls in the hands of people making claims to PROVE thier point. Not everyone else to disprove them. 
I could tell you there is an invisible elf that only i can see. I could ask you "Do you have enough proof to prove or disprove that the elf exists?"
See my point? It's not a valid argument. 
Why should YOU have to disproove my invisible elf? Especially when i can find no convincing evidence to back up my claim.
Surely those who make wild claims are the ones responsible for proving them.
If you, I or anyone is going to make claims that contradict mountains of evidence and scientific knowledge, they better be able to back those claims up. Asking others to disprove them is passing the buck.

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## moonshine

OBE's are real.
My spiritural dream guide Moonunit (she lives on mars) told me.

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## WaaayOutThere

Science, science, science... she's a fickle master.
Just about everything I was taught in my schooldays as "scientific fact" has since been disproven by new scientists conducting new experiments.
There were 9 planets when I went to school... but alas, not any more. Oatmeal is good for you, oatmeal is bad for you, oatmeal is good for you... scientists can't agree on anything, their experiments are constantly called into question as possibly being compromised or skewed in some fashion. I personally find science very unreliable.
I should hope that the "science conscious" among us aren't simply googling random scientific studies and considering them as fact.
I feel sorry for those who get locked into a scientific mindset. There is so much more to life, so much that can be experienced beyond our physical senses. Limiting oneself to only 5 senses and what one can perceive by them is such a boring and depressing existence, no wonder the negativity comes creeping in.
I grew up in a medical family; my dad watched people die everyday. Some of them did come back, and they had very interesting things to tell upon their returns. After decades of learning and coming to understand how people die, I think it would be foolishness to deny that there is something beyond this mere tragically unhappy, physical life.

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## spaceexplorer

> Science, science, science... she's a fickle master.
> Just about everything I was taught in my schooldays as "scientific fact" has since been disproven by new scientists conducting new experiments.
> There were 9 planets when I went to school... but alas, not any more. Oatmeal is good for you, oatmeal is bad for you, oatmeal is good for you... scientists can't agree on anything, their experiments are constantly called into question as possibly being compromised or skewed in some fashion. I personally find science very unreliable.
> I should hope that the "science conscious" among us aren't simply googling random scientific studies and considering them as fact.
> I feel sorry for those who get locked into a scientific mindset. There is so much more to life, so much that can be experienced beyond our physical senses. Limiting oneself to only 5 senses and what one can perceive by them is such a boring and depressing existence, no wonder the negativity comes creeping in.
> I grew up in a medical family; my dad watched people die everyday. Some of them did come back, and they had very interesting things to tell upon their returns. After decades of learning and coming to understand how people die, I think it would be foolishness to deny that there is something beyond this mere tragically unhappy, physical life.



Thats the beauty of science though, it's a true open mind.
If you learn that you are wrong, you move on and work with the facts that make more sense in the world. 
I'd rather think like that than in some dogmatic way that dosn't adapt to new evidence.

There is nothing boring about science.
With it we've seen out into the far reaches of space, 
sent robots to explore new worlds, sent men to the moon.
Been able to see our home planet from afar.
Unlocked the mysterys of the past.
Grown to understand the workings of our minds and bodies and the environment we live in.
Looked back in time to the beggining of the universe.
Connected billions of people worldwide through communications.
Improved the health of the human race.

I could go on and on.

Just one of the many things we've learnt through science, is that there are more stars in our universe, than there are grains of sand on the entire planet!

If that dosn't make you feel in awe of the universe, i dont know what will.

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## supreme

As far as I'm concerned, every weird or paranormal happening can be
explained by LDs or SP. Alien abduction, ghosts, OOBE all of that. When 
I was little I saw an apparition fly through my bedroom wall and out through 
the other wall. It scared the crap out of me at the time! The next day I put
it down to a very weird real dream, because even when I was small, I
tended to look at things logically. I know now that I saw this apparition
during a SP episode. If I'd known what it was then, I could have projected
my body out of my real body and started a lucid dream. I always project
my (dream body) out of my real body when I begin a lucid dream. It feels
so real, as if my spirit is leaving my body, that I even did a few experiments
to make sure they were not....a long long time ago. I start from my bed
and I can look and see my real body still lying there. I'm always in my 
bedroom and in my house. I challenge all people who believe they are
really having a true OOBE to look around carefully. Things are a little off.
Maybe no curtains on the windows where there should be some, color 
scheme can be off, things are not where they should be. And heres 
something else I've wondered about people who believe in OOB. When
you are experiencing them, can you do whatever you want to?? Like, can
you make it rain, or can you morph?? That right there is proof enough for
me that it is a lucid dream. Anyway, next time, take a very careful look
around.

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## supreme

> you have no idea what you are talking about, do you?



makes complete sense to me!

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## supreme

oh and one more thing as well. Once the brain has lost all brainwave
activity......you are irreversibly brain dead. There is no coming back
from this with your mind intact! If your heart is restarted after brain
activity has stopped, then you will be on life support and brain dead.
Every account I have ever read of someone saying a person came
back to their normal selves after loss of brainwave activity has been
disproved. After the heart stops, you have ten minutes to come
back before you are brain dead.....unless someone is giving you
oxygen to keep the brain alive.

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## WaaayOutThere

> Thats the beauty of science though, it's a true open mind.
> If you learn that you are wrong, you move on and work with the facts that make more sense in the world. 
> I'd rather think like that than in some dogmatic way that dosn't adapt to new evidence.
> 
> There is nothing boring about science.
> With it we've seen out into the far reaches of space, 
> sent robots to explore new worlds, sent men to the moon.
> Been able to see our home planet from afar.
> Unlocked the mysterys of the past.
> ...



I didn't say that science was boring... I said that limiting oneself in one's experience of this world is boring.
I agree completely that outer space and other worlds are quite fascinating.
I don't believe that science has truly explained our beginnings though. Scientists are still arguing about that as well as the past. Just as they are still arguing over quantum physics. It's kind of fun to listen to scientists argue over quatum physics... they get so deep and yet end up nowhere.

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## supreme

> Science, science, science... she's a fickle master.
> Just about everything I was taught in my schooldays as "scientific fact" has since been disproven by new scientists conducting new experiments.
> There were 9 planets when I went to school... but alas, not any more. Oatmeal is good for you, oatmeal is bad for you, oatmeal is good for you... scientists can't agree on anything, their experiments are constantly called into question as possibly being compromised or skewed in some fashion. I personally find science very unreliable.
> I should hope that the "science conscious" among us aren't simply googling random scientific studies and considering them as fact.
> I feel sorry for those who get locked into a scientific mindset. There is so much more to life, so much that can be experienced beyond our physical senses. Limiting oneself to only 5 senses and what one can perceive by them is such a boring and depressing existence, no wonder the negativity comes creeping in.
> I grew up in a medical family; my dad watched people die everyday. Some of them did come back, and they had very interesting things to tell upon their returns. After decades of learning and coming to understand how people die, I think it would be foolishness to deny that there is something beyond this mere tragically unhappy, physical life.



There are things that are more believable without my actually seeing or
experiencing it for myself. The tenth planet 'is there' so anyone can
look at it. We haven't discovered everything yet! There are hundreds
of diseases we cant cure yet. What can cause cancer? We don't know
everything about it yet, but we do know some things. Scientists proved
that smoking can cause lung cancer. Experiments are constantly being
done to bring us closer to that knowledge....thankfully! Men walked on
the moon?? I believe it, we have film footage of it. Some ppl don't believe
it though! I haven't gone up to the moon so I can't say that I know it's 
true for a fact, but I believe it nevertheless. Some things are easier to
believe than other things without personally experiencing it. Anything
paranormal is a very, very hard thing for me to swallow! I need to see it
or experience it for myself, or I just can't believe it.

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## supreme

> I too thought about this the first time I read LaBerge's book.
> 
> I came to the conclusion that that experiment proved nothing.
> So maybe it is very unlikely that one would remember a sequence of eye movements in a dreamstate. So what? That doesn't prove that its impossible in any way.
> 
> 
> I'd have to say that if I were a skeptic and had never had a lucid experience this "evidence" would crumble pretty much instantly before my logical mind's methods of deduction.
> Its actually a pretty shoddy excuse for proof if ever I've seen one.
> 
> ...



I think its shoddy as well! lol In a lucid dream, I know I can remember to
do eye sequences for someone to watch. But I believe they wont see it
tho. In a lucid dream my eyes are open. They wont see that either because
I know that in reality my eyes are closed, because I have woken up with
my eyes still closed and knew that I was just seeing with them closed. We
know that if we clap when we are lucid dreaming, we aren't really clapping,
so I wouldnt think the remembered eye sequences would be detected
either....right?  ::?: 
I can't think of any way that I can prove I'm having a lucid dream. I know
they are real and so that's all I need to know. I have proved to myself
that my OOBEs aren't real, and that's all I need to know about them as well.
Someone!! Anyone!! Who can have true OOBEs should be able to prove that
to me personally though! You are a spirit that has left your body right?
Can't you come me and do something to me, at a time that we've discussed?
Or can't you actually touch and move things? I mean even ghosts can
move things apparently, if you believe in poltergeists. Hell.....maybe all the
ghosts ppl are seeing, are really all you ppl who say they have true OOBEs,
flying around outside your bodies!

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## junta700

ok people. 1) if you never had an Obe or ever attempted to have an OBE how the hell can you determine the likelyness or existince of it? 2) your so called "proof" offers nothing to the table, thats not proof, if you want some proof learn how to do it then stare at your body as you float above it, i know LDing cuz i've been doing it for years and i know the difference between being fully weightless vs being in a dreamy haze. 3) you non believers, are all being force fed all this capitalist dogma and propaganda, and false Science, Science has been wrong before dumbasses. 4) and to all the believers you got nothing to prove to these people, let them be ignorant to their own nature. "We should judge through our eyes not the eyes of others" thats something they should do. So go on with your lifes because this topic is dead.

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## supreme

> you know what..
> those stupid scientists are wrong cause when are in an OBE you see things that are actually happening, and that could never happen even if it is the most vivid dream in the world.
> 
> they can say whatever they want but OBEs are still real



Can you do it when you want to?? Because if you can, then why not come
over to my house next Friday night while your OOB, at a specific time,and tell 
me what I'm doing then. I'll give you the directions! Also, tell me enough about 
what my house looks like inside, that I will believe you. Please!! Someone prove 
this to me! I beg you! If you can do it, then I'll believe!!

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## supreme

> ok people. 1) if you never had an Obe or ever attempted to have an OBE how the hell can you determine the likelyness or existince of it? 2) your so called "proof" offers nothing to the table, thats not proof, if you want some proof learn how to do it then stare at your body as you float above it, i know LDing cuz i've been doing it for years and i know the difference between being fully weightless vs being in a dreamy haze. 3) you non believers, are all being force fed all this capitalist dogma and propaganda, and false Science, Science has been wrong before dumbasses. 4) and to all the believers you got nothing to prove to these people, let them be ignorant to their own nature. "We should judge through our eyes not the eyes of others" thats something they should do. So go on with your lifes because this topic is dead.



I've just told you, this is what i do do!! I can stare at my body while
floating above it in my bedroom while im having a lucid dream! I can
even float back down to it till im face to face with it and touch it!
I can look at my face perfectly!
When I leave my body it's as if I am a spirit leaving it.
When I wake up its like im tumbling back into my body as if i were a
spirit! And its as real as real as real as real can be!! We have excellent
memory of everything in our rooms and houses and of ourselves, and
thats why I can see everything so well when I slip out of my body like
a spirit. It's not fuzzy at all!. At least I know that my OOBEs are not
real. I'll never believe yours are either...prove it to me then! Come
and tell me what I look like then, or what anything in my house looks
like....please!

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## supreme

> Now i never said believing in science makes someone cold. What i did mean to say is that i don't believe science covers the entire truth. It may one day do that, but i don't think that would be the best choice.



Science isn't cold. If you didn't believe in scientific research then you 
wouldn't get vaccines or any medication or even surgery. Where the
hell would we be without scientists? And science is *'always open-
minded'* and ready to study anything you can prove. It will say
it was wrong when you prove that to it as well. 
Unproved beliefs are *'closed-minded'*, in my experience.

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