# Lucid Dreaming > Attaining Lucidity > Lucid Aids >  >  AcetylCholine Agonists.

## SKA

It is known that AcetylCholine is a Neurotransmitter involved in controling muscle tention and regulating sleep. 

The reason why lucid dreamers are so enthusiastic about Choline is because it's a precursor to AcetylCholine which is what seems to make us dream more vividly. So AcetylCholine appears to be a DreamEnhancer and therefor preloading yourself with it's precursor Choline works to make dreams more vivid, conscious and memorable. So higher levels of the neurotransmitter AcetylCholine seem favouravle for vivid/lucid dreams.

Now there are other substances called AcetylCholine-Agonists. Meaning these substances either *(1)*mimic the action of AcetylCholine (as is the case with Psilocyn(mushrooms) and Serotonin, and with Opium/Opiates and Endorphin),* (2)* increase the production/release of AcetylCholine, or *(3)*they inhibit the breakdown of AcetylCholine: All 3 possible actions of these AcetylCholine Agonist-substances result in AcetylCholine levels increasing in the brain. 

I was trying to find out a list of acetylCholine-Agonist substances and possible food/plant sources of them. This is where I need your help, cause a google search was unsuccesfull to my surprise.

So can you folks help me make a list of AcetylCholine Agonists and their organic ( Or commercial, Supplement ) sources? That would be sweet.

Here's the List I will be updating everytime one of you post another AcetylCholine Agonist:

*AcetylCholine Agonists:*




> Galantamine
> Nicotine
> Acetic acid (Vinegar)
> Huperzine A.
> Donepezil

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## DuB

Off the top of my head..

Galantamine
Nicotine
Acetic acid (i.e. vinegar) (precursor)

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## SKA

Heya Dub! Haven't seen ya in alooong time. Good to still see you around.

Thanks for the help.

Galantamine is only on prescription in The Netherlands where I live I believe, but since it's effects are pretty similair to those of my own Psycho-active medications( Rivotril[clonazepam] to calm my chaotic mind, thoughtprocess and mak me more aware, less confused ) Except my medications don't do that much at all.

I was thinking since my problem is a hectic, forgetfull mind with an attention that is easily divided and "jammed", Galantamine might actually apply for a medication for my condition. So I'll tke the Galantamine-question  to a psychiatrist.

I smoke tobacco, however noticed no different effects in dreaming. Maybe nicotine patches woud work. I could get em and while I'm at it use them to Luid dream AND quit smoking too.

Vinegar? You sure? so let's say I eat a salad with  dressing that contains ALOT of vinegar, that would significantly increase acetylcholine levels so I dream noticably more vividly? Worth a Try.

More AcetylCholine-Agonists are wanted for my list. So if any of you know more AcetylCholine-Agonist substances, let me know.

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## SKA

quite intrresting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholinergic

It mentions a list of acetylcholine receptor agonists 
and a list of cholinesterase inhibitors. In the latter it mentions Physostigmine, a Substance that is found in Enthada Rheedii beans A.K.A. "African DreamBeans".
This would easily explain the DreamBean's DreamEnhancing qualities: It raises the level of AcetylCholine in your brain.

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## harvey123456

Huperzine A.

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## SKA

thx harvey, it&#180;s added to the list as well as a drug I found out on erowid named Donepezil, an alzheimer-medication.

Check this out too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylc...rase_inhibitor
These substances don't stimulate the release of acetylcholine, but instead they inhibit it's breakdown by (temporarily) blocking the action of the enzyme acetylcholinesterase which normally breaks down acetylcholine.

Keep em comming people: Substances that increase Acetylcholine levels in the brain.  :smiley:  AcetylCholine to the Dreaming people!

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## Expatasapien

> Off the top of my head..
> 
> Galantamine
> Nicotine
> Acetic acid (i.e. vinegar) (precursor)



Right, but good luck sourcing Galantamine.

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## SKA

I have a psychological condition that baffles psychologists. It has traits of Authism, but isn't as I am a very social person. It has traits of ADD(attention problems), but isn't that either. Sometimes I experience inexplainable emotions that are so strong that they are nothing short of a Religious experience. They tried to calm down my overly chaotic mind with benzo's but it doesn't do it's job.

My greatest problem is a shortage of attention, a jumpy/impatient attention and being too hectic in thoughts so I forget ALOT of my stuff and appointments. Being easily distracted is my foremost problem explained in a nutshell.

With this condition I think it is not unrealistic to ask my Psychiatrist wether Galantamine would do any good. It is clearity of Mind I am after cause it is missing in me. I am very much a nutty professor who can never find his stuff, because he forgot where he put them. So anti-alzheimer meds, despite the fact I don't have alzheimers, might not be such an illogical idea as possible treatment for my condition.

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## Pip

I can tell you for a fact that nicotine patches cause vivid dreaming.  I experienced that firsthand when I was quitting smoking.   Though if you're not already addicted to nicotine, I wouldn't recommend it.

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## Expatasapien

> I have a psychological condition that baffles psychologists. It has traits of Authism, but isn't as I am a very social person. It has traits of ADD(attention problems), but isn't that either. Sometimes I experience inexplainable emotions that are so strong that they are nothing short of a Religious experience. They tried to calm down my overly chaotic mind with benzo's but it doesn't do it's job.
> 
> My greatest problem is a shortage of attention, a jumpy/impatient attention and being too hectic in thoughts so I forget ALOT of my stuff and appointments. Being easily distracted is my foremost problem explained in a nutshell.
> 
> With this condition I think it is not unrealistic to ask my Psychiatrist wether Galantamine would do any good. It is clearity of Mind I am after cause it is missing in me. I am very much a nutty professor who can never find his stuff, because he forgot where he put them. So anti-alzheimer meds, despite the fact I don't have alzheimers, might not be such an illogical idea as possible treatment for my condition.




Yeah try that in Europe. The United states is the only country pushing meds the way they do.

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## DuB

Galantamine is available through online sources. The most popular galantamine supplement for lucid dreams is Galantamind:
http://www.life-enhancement.com/prod...p?SID=1&id=122

Smoking tobacco will not have an appreciable effect on dreams because it lasts such a short time. As Pip mentioned, nicotine patches are the way to go if you're looking to go the nicotine route.

You ever heard of drinking pickle juice as the folk cure for cramps? This cure has been found to have some merit, and the effect is believed to be caused by the acetic acid in vinegar setting the stage for increased acetylcholine production. This is probably oversimplifying (I'm no doctor!) but think of it this way: acetic acid + choline = acetylcholine.

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## SKA

FINALLY! DreamViews folks are no longer bouncing their heads together, but finally putting their heads together again. This gladdens me and encourages me to come back from my long absence.

*Wikipedia says:*
*Acetylcholine is synthesized in certain neurons by the enzyme choline acetyltransferase from the compounds choline and acetyl-CoA.

The enzyme acetylcholinesterase converts acetylcholine into the inactive metabolites choline and acetate. This enzyme is abundant in the synaptic cleft, and its role in rapidly clearing free acetylcholine from the synapse is essential for proper muscle function.*

This explains why the Galantamine + Choline combo works so well: taking Choline is preloading with AcetylCholine's main precursor and taking Galantamine inhibits the enzymatic breakdown of AcetylCholine(by inhibiting the action of acetylcholinesterase), thus resulting in increased acetylcholine levels.

Now I have 3 questions:
1. Where would I find Choline? Herbal healthfoodstores/Drugstores or Pharmacies? OTC?
2. How about making a nicotine ointment out of Tobacco-juice? This could be applied on the skin and function just like a Nicotine patch;Slow absorption & long duration of effects
3. What about Vinegar + Galantamine + Choline + Nicotine Patch prior to sleep?

Well I'm going to have to check the availability of Galantamine and Choline here in the Netherlands.

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## DuB

> 1. Where would I find Choline? Herbal healthfoodstores/Drugstores or Pharmacies? OTC?



Choline is generally grouped with the B vitamins, so it shouldn't be too hard to get ahold of. I would expect most health food/vitamin stores to have some. Also notice that the supplement "Galantamind" that I linked to earlier also contains choline, as well as pantothenic acid (vitamin B5). Some people prefer to have more control over the proportions that they take these in, as well as possibly leaving out the B5, but nevertheless, there have been many reports of success with Galantamind.





> 2. How about making a nicotine ointment out of Tobacco-juice? This could be applied on the skin and function just like a Nicotine patch;Slow absorption & long duration of effects



Sounds plausible. It would certainly save money. Nicotine patches aren't cheap.





> 3. What about Vinegar + Galantamine + Choline + Nicotine Patch prior to sleep?



If you can get back to sleep after all that, more power to ya... but I wouldn't bet on it  :wink2: .

If you're serious about supplements, dopamine is thought to play a more central role in dreaming than acetylcholine. But I wouldn't experiment with dopamine agonists lightly..  ::undecided::

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## Vortex

Hi Ska,
Choline seems to be available in most herbal healthfood stores.
Galantamine is used as a anti-alzheimer drug and I believe it goes by several different names. 
Have you tried Piracitam ?

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## moe007

> FINALLY! DreamViews folks are no longer bouncing their heads together, but finally putting their heads together again. This gladdens me and encourages me to come back from my long absence.
> 
> *Wikipedia says:*
> *Acetylcholine is synthesized in certain neurons by the enzyme choline acetyltransferase from the compounds choline and acetyl-CoA.
> 
> The enzyme acetylcholinesterase converts acetylcholine into the inactive metabolites choline and acetate. This enzyme is abundant in the synaptic cleft, and its role in rapidly clearing free acetylcholine from the synapse is essential for proper muscle function.*
> 
> This explains why the Galantamine + Choline combo works so well: taking Choline is preloading with AcetylCholine's main precursor and taking Galantamine inhibits the enzymatic breakdown of AcetylCholine(by inhibiting the action of acetylcholinesterase), thus resulting in increased acetylcholine levels.
> 
> ...



Been reading through this thread. Finally somebody started a list  ::D: 

For your questions,
1. Choline is a common supplement that is found in almost all drugstores, some grocery stores, and definetely a supplement/vitamin store

2. That would work, but how are you going to get a concentrated enough ointment out of tobacco juice, you would need to make it thick like (for example) hash oil. 

3. Just an FYI, if you have extrememly large amounts of acetylecholine in your system, you might not get to sleep at all. I would try that at a wbtb. Try applying the nicotine patch before bed, take it off at WBTB, drink the vinegar then take the galantamine+choline. But im telling you, you will probably not sleep because nicotine is a stimulant, and if you have acetylcholine in large quantities in your brain, your brain will be wanting to go straight to dreaming right away and not sleep first. 

As somebody said, try playing with dopamine because it is the stronger and more dominant dream neurotransmitter. I have personally experiemented with dopamine quite a bit. As with all drugs.  ::roll::   :smiley: 

For dopamine experimentation, try getting mucuna pruriens, BUT CONTRARY TO POPULAR BELIEF, get the LOW % of levodopa. They go in increments of 5% i believe up to 15%. Get the 5% or 10%. This is because, due to the lesser amount of l-dopa in the pill, there is more amount of actual mucuna pruriens, which have the neccesary enzymes to convert the ldopa into dopamine. But when you get the higher % of levodopa, there is a lesser ratio for ldopa/mucuna pruriens which gives you more unsynthesized levodopa in the blood, which can lead to complications.

If you want to enhance dopamine with something other than mucuna pruriens, there is a list of drug, legal and illegal, that are pretty much dopamine reuptake inhibitors. i.e. cocaine. But I wouldn't recommend trying cocaine for lucid dream enhancement because you will suffer withdrawal as cocaine has a very short half life, which will cause you to "crash" and want more... leading to addiction. 

Another route is simple opiates. For example, Hydrocodone and oxycodone IN LOW DOSES, can increase the amount of dopamine in your brain enough to enhance dreams in the later part of the night. But if you take 30mg+ you wont be able to sleep. I would say try 10-15mg or find what works best for you.

Dark chocolate is also a great way to increase dopamine production. Go for the higher cocoa content. 85% i believe is the greatest amount that will taste OKAY. The 100% cocoa dark chocolate cannot be eaten because it is so god damn bitter.

I hope that helps.
 ::D:

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## SKA

Interresting. My psychiatrist prescribed me sleeping pills. Zolpidem (A.K.A. Ambien, Stillnoct, Midazolam)

I take them VERY rarely as i sometimes suffer periods of insomnia which sucks when you have appointments early in the day and thins to do. It is a Nonbenzodiazepine and it's effects are VERY strongly sedative, mentally clearing and euphoriant if I take a Crash-Bang-Lights-Out-Dose; 7,5 mg.

With small doses of Zolpidem, should I think of something in between 1mg - 3mg or more in the range of 3mg - 5mg? That along with a significant amount of 85&#37; pure cocoa chocolat bars would be a promising night of dreaming I suppose?

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## moe007

> Interresting. My psychiatrist prescribed me sleeping pills. Zolpidem (A.K.A. Ambien, Stillnoct, Midazolam)
> 
> I take them VERY rarely as i sometimes suffer periods of insomnia which sucks when you have appointments early in the day and thins to do. It is a Nonbenzodiazepine and it's effects are VERY strongly sedative, mentally clearing and euphoriant if I take a Crash-Bang-Lights-Out-Dose; 7,5 mg.
> 
> With small doses of Zolpidem, should I think of something in between 1mg - 3mg or more in the range of 3mg - 5mg? That along with a significant amount of 85% pure cocoa chocolat bars would be a promising night of dreaming I suppose?



Wow only 7.5mg? Ive had 24mg of ambien, two 12.5mg pills just to put me to sleep. 12.5mg will only make me drowsy, but thats because I have a strong tolerance to everything. I am very familiar with its effects.

If you want to have dream enhancement, i believe 1-5mg would work. They make 6.5mg pills, which are used to put people to sleep, so 5mg is high for untolerant people. Try 3mg. With alot of dark chocolate, that should produce nice effects. I believe you will have enhanced dream vividness from the dopamine, AND REM rebound, so it should be nice.

Give your results when your do it.  ::D:

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## SKA

> Wow only 7.5mg? Ive had 24mg of ambien, two 12.5mg pills just to put me to sleep. 12.5mg will only make me drowsy, but thats because I have a strong tolerance to everything. I am very familiar with its effects.
> 
> If you want to have dream enhancement, i believe 1-5mg would work. They make 6.5mg pills, which are used to put people to sleep, so 5mg is high for untolerant people. Try 3mg. With alot of dark chocolate, that should produce nice effects. I believe you will have enhanced dream vividness from the dopamine, AND REM rebound, so it should be nice.
> 
> Give your results when your do it.



 
Ah sorry. I confused 2 of my prescribed sleepmedications.
Ambien*(*AKA Zolpidem] Hypnogen, Myslee, Nimadorm, Nitrest, Sanval, Stilnoct, Stilnox, Zoldem(HEXAL AG), Zodorm, Zolfresh, and Zolt.*)* and Dormicum*(*Midazolam, Flormidal, Versed, Hypnovel and Dormonid*)* are 2 different substances.
I meant *Dormicum* is what I currently take(rarely in emergency-cases) to combat Sleeplessness effectively at doses of 7,5 mg. Even half of that dose has strong sedative, euphoriant & relaxant/calmative effects.

Check out the Wikipedia-Dormicum links.
Do you think small doses of Dormicum, like small doses of opiates, would also stimulate dreams as you suggested? 7,5mg is a Good-Night-Lights-out dose/ Hal of that would still be quite strongly sedative. Something like 3 mg of Dormicum perhaps?

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## moe007

> Ah sorry. I confused 2 of my prescribed sleepmedications.
> Ambien*(*AKA Zolpidem] Hypnogen, Myslee, Nimadorm, Nitrest, Sanval, Stilnoct, Stilnox, Zoldem(HEXAL AG), Zodorm, Zolfresh, and Zolt.*)* and Dormicum*(*Midazolam, Flormidal, Versed, Hypnovel and Dormonid*)* are 2 different substances.
> I meant *Dormicum* is what I currently take(rarely in emergency-cases) to combat Sleeplessness effectively at doses of 7,5 mg. Even half of that dose has strong sedative, euphoriant & relaxant/calmative effects.
> 
> Check out the Wikipedia-Dormicum links.
> Do you think small doses of Dormicum, like small doses of opiates, would also stimulate dreams as you suggested? 7,5mg is a Good-Night-Lights-out dose/ Hal of that would still be quite strongly sedative. Something like 3 mg of Dormicum perhaps?



Ah midazolam, very strong sedative/tranquilizer. Im familiar with its effects. But its not similar to ambien as it is a benzodiazepine, and ambien is a nonbenzodiazepine. 

I think 2-3mg of midazolam should do it, although im not sure if it is directly related to dopamine, or if it just causes a lack of dopamine and then a dopamine rebound. Ill have to research that. But nevertheless you should have some dream enhancement with a low dose of midazolam.

I know that alprazolam, or Xanax, is effective at enhancing dreams at low doses. By low doses I mean, .25mg or .5mg. Dont take more than 2mg which is a "bar" as its called on the street because depending on your size/weight and tolerance, you may not remember what you did that night or may not remember any dreams at all. One night I had 2 bars, which is 4mg of alprazolam, which for my tolerance is a normal dose.. Just to help me sleep. But when i woke up, I didnt remember the night, and I looked at the remaining bars i had, and they were one less. Which meant i must have taken an extra bar (2mg) at night, and have no memory of it what so ever.

Although that morning I do remember some very very strong dreams and I kept slipping out of consciousness and back every 5 mins or so.

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## SKA

> WikiQuote on AcetylCholine:
> *Chemistry*
> Acetylcholine is an ester of acetic acid and choline with chemical formula CH3COOCH2CH2N+(CH3)3. This structure is reflected in the systematic name, 2-acetoxy-N,N,N-trimethylethanaminium.
> 
> 
> WikiQuote on Choline:
> *Choline Sources*
> The foods richest in phosphatidylcholine — the major delivery form of choline — are egg yolks, soy and cooked beef, chicken, veal and turkey livers. Many foods contain trace amounts of free choline, even iceberg lettuce. To what extent these trace forms are usable by human digestion is still debated. In 2004, the USDA released its first database of the choline content in common foods.[6]
> 
> The most often available choline dietary supplement is lecithin, derived from soy or egg yolks, often used as a food additive. Phosphatidylcholine is also available as a supplement, in pill or powder form. Supplementary choline is also available as choline chloride, which comes as a liquid due to its hydrophilic properties. Choline chloride is sometimes preferred as a supplement because phosphatidylcholine can have gastrointestinal side effects.



So would 2 fried eggs on a sandwitch, a Chicken/Turkey Sandwitch with Iceberg lettuce, a Salad with iceberg lettuce and some Vinegar and a Glas or 2 of SoyMilk be a nice pre-bedtime meal for Dreamers who wish to have Hellishly vivid dreams?  ::D: 

Also, since Iceberg Lettuce contains significant amounts of Choline, does anyone here know if there are any other foods, vegetables or herbs significantly rich in Choline?

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## DuB

Actually, the article said that iceberg lettuce contains _trace_ amounts of choline. You're probably better off sticking to more concentrated sources like eggs and pickles (pickles for the vinegar, that is).

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## SKA

ah I overlooked that. Well I just ate 2 fried eggs with some bacon. Had a banana and some fresh dates earlier today too. Also had a sweet meal of grainrice with salmon and vegetables and alot of spice. Maybe it'll help. If not, at least I have enjoyed it dearly  :tongue2: .

Indeed I am not fond of Dopamine Reuptake Inhibitors (DARI) . That'd be cocaine and speed right? Ashaming substances that slumber consciousness. However, what about ingesting Dopamine precursors before bedtime though? 

And Dopaminergics like those mentioned here?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminergic
Any additional info and knowledge would be much appreciated.

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