# Lucid Dreaming > General Lucid Discussion >  >  foolproof Instant WILD anytime ...

## alfy984

Ive read many accounts of people using Salvia Divinorum, a legal psychoactive plant. I have experience with this plant myself and i must say it is very powerful and should not be done unless one is fully aware of the effects.  One thing common with "breakthrough" experiences is the user is instantly thrown into another world.  On some occasions people actually act out what they are doing in this experience and after 10 minutes they come back with no recollection of what they did.  This makes sense if you were thrown into a dream and you weren't paralyzed you would most surely act it out.  This is also one reason why this plant is dangerous, even though it is 100% non toxic to your body.   It  is a very intense and powerful experience and i would say it is a 100% effective method to go straight into a dream.  Some people may say that its just hallucinations, but what are hallucinations really? And isn't a dream just a very vivid and all-encompassing hallucination?  Anyways there is a lot more i could say about salvia but i just want to know what people think about this idea and if anyone has had experiences with this legal plant.

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## Elite

That sounds fishy. But whatever floats your boat.

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## MrBeelzy

I might compare the effects of a psychoactive to dreaming (might), but certainly not lucid dreaming. Even with a lot of experience you are still going to be taking in external stimuli, and interpreting that, and you can't reach the same level of control that you could in a dream (especially with something like salvia). There are experiences that, on the surface, will be similar, but at the same time, there are experiences you will only be able to have while dreaming, or with a psychedelic (some people might say this is even arguable), but to me it's apples and oranges.

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## alfy984

don't you take in outside stimuli in dreaming too? ive had dreams where it was storming in my dream only to wake up and see a storm outside my window.  I would say its possible to be able to control it like a lucid dream.  But its not the same and it only lasts like 10 minutes.  I agree with you that its  like comparing apples and oranges, but apples and oranges are still made of the same atoms and even then they are still about %99.999999999 empty space.  So in essence they are the same and yet they are still different.  






> That sounds fishy. But whatever floats your boat.



Is it also fishy that body regulated DMT, the most powerful psychoactive substance known to man, causes you to dream every night?

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## Funnel

That sounds like a really bad idea, and justifying it by saying psychoactive substances are produced naturally by our own body is a faulty argument.  Do you know whats also produced by our body?  Poop.  That doesn't mean we should eat poop.  Obviously, poop has a specific purpose that our body is just happy to control beyond conscious thought.  Yes, doctors will sometimes regulate bodily functions for the sick, but they are doctors who have studied medicine for many years, not just ten minutes of wikipedia browsing.  I hate to bash your statement but I think you possibly disliking me is less important than someone reading this and trying it out.

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## FreeOne

dreaming and hallucinations are not the same thing.  You have to sleep and be in REM  to dream to put it in extremely simple form.  You are not sleeping when hallucinating, So it isn't a dream. Certain parts of your brain are active/not active when you are dreaming that's different than halucinating.  And taking drugs to "supposedly" get LDs is NOT healthy. Maybe taking something your body needs (like vitamins) to help LDing is okay,  but taking something like salvia just isnt a good idea. 





> That sounds like a really bad idea, and justifying it by saying psychoactive substances are produced naturally by our own body is a faulty argument. Do you know whats also produced by our body? Poop.



  ::lmao::

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## Amelaclya

Heh, I had never heard of this before but I have to admit I think I'm going to order some.  I've always been very curious about LSD but too afraid to try it, especially after learning what a bad trip does to your brain physiologically  :smiley:  After reading the wikipedia article about Salvia, it sounds much safer.  

Although I can't really see how something that gives you wild hallucinations can be completely safe (long term effects unknown maybe?) so I certainly hope it's not too fun and I don't go overboard  :tongue2:

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## MrBeelzy

> After reading the wikipedia article about Salvia, it sounds much safer.



I might debate that. The psychological damage thing is really only a worry if you have a history in your family, or some other risk factors, but I'd say there is way more potential to have a bad trip with Salvia. I have seen people have bad trips on LSD (had one myself) and we weren't permanently scarred (it didn't stop me from doing it again either). I have just seen way more people freak out, and actually need to be restrained on Salvia than on LSD. Set and setting, and other factors you control help make sure an LSD trip goes well, but Salvia is way too unpredictable to really be in control of. Several people I know have been scared away from doing Salvia again from a bad trip.

Either way, if you're gonna do it, you're gonna do it, just be safe (maybe start with at a 10x extraction), be sitting down (seriously), and have a sitter. Read up on Erowid, (experiences section in particular) some more before you jump in too. Too many uninformed people who want to do Salvia and put it on youtube and shit, and there are too many inaccurate descriptions out there, be smart about it (not saying you aren't), have a good time.

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## Funnel

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Amelaclya was being sarcastic

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## Truth Paradox

I thought Salvia was made illegal in the U.S. Where do you live? I could be wrong, I just remember hearing that in passing.
The major difference, however, between a dream and a hallucination of any kind is that in a dream you experience no consequences for your actions. It is this idea that draws many people to lucid dreaming. While if you are just tripping off a drug, you may jump out a window and think you can fly and wind up dead.

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## alfy984

it is legal in the everywhere in the US except Louisiana. And i believe you cant ship it to certain states.   

there has never been a single reported death from Salvia.  Salvia is safe if you know what you are doing.  Salvia is active in pure form in as little as 100 micrograms(1 mcg is 1 millionth of a gram) making it the most potent psychoactive substance known to man.  And it has to be treated respect and love.  Treat Salvia like its a 

I didnt mean to say it should be used by everyone to do LDs.  I'm just saying the effects are strikingly similar to entering a dream via WILD.   If you have never tried salvia then there is no way you could know.  





> That sounds like a really bad idea, and justifying it by saying psychoactive substances are produced naturally by our own body is a faulty argument. Do you know whats also produced by our body? Poop. That doesn't mean we should eat poop.



Poop is not released in your brain during rem sleep and it is a waste biproduct of digestion.  The psychoactive chemical DMT is produced in the pineal gland in the brain and is released during rem sleep.  I dont think that is a coincidence.  






> I thought Salvia was made illegal in the U.S. Where do you live? I could be wrong, I just remember hearing that in passing.
> The major difference, however, between a dream and a hallucination of any kind is that in a dream you experience no consequences for your actions. It is this idea that draws many people to lucid dreaming. While if you are just tripping off a drug, you may jump out a window and think you can fly and wind up dead.



No one has every died from jumping out of a window on salvia.  It may have happened once or twice in the seventies with LSD.  The reason people act out what they see is because they believe what they are seeing is real, just in a dream when are not aware you are dreaming. The difference is with salvia people look at their surroundings and see things totally different and if they bump into things or fall down it turns the experience into a bad one.  You just have to relax and lay down or something and listen to music.

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## shotbirds

People who do LSD freak out on Salvia -_-, let alone someone who has never done a psychedelic drug before. Bad advice to be telling people to try it if they aren't into that type of thing -_-.

Tho it is an experience.

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## alfy984

Yes please do not do this unless you are 100% sure you want to try and you have read this   http://www.sagewisdom.org/usersguide.html.  Also i would go to www.erowid.org and read as many experiences as you can.

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## antiflag

sounds addicting....and dangerous 

id rather just do it naturaly

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## IcyDice

Salvia is not physically addictive, and also very unlikely to be psychologically addictive.  But anyways I can see what alfy984 is trying to say... and I believe that dreams could be just like hallucinations except in dreams our bodies are paralyzed making us unable to act out the actual actions.  Obviously Salvia isn't for everyone, and should be taken only by people who know what they are doing.  Anyways, I think that Salvia could enhance our LD experiences and inform us more about the mysteries of that other world.

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## SKA

> sounds addicting....and dangerous 
> 
> id rather just do it naturaly



 
Do any of you people actually base your views & beliefs on FACTS or just the mere sound of things and "What you've head of them"? Why all the Judgement? And why all the Fear?

here's a guy who has found a helpfull Psychedelic Plant that casts one into a fully immersive Dream-state VERY SIMILAIR TO the WILD experience of Dreams. He never said it IS dreaming. Admit it, no mater how much you fear "Drugs" and "Hallucinations", the Salvia experience is indeed very similair to entering a Dream. Read some salvia experience reports to inform yourselves.

And there you guys go overloading him with judgement and fear. It seems more and more people prefer to live their lives in Eternal Fear of all unknown and mystical things everywhere I turn.

Salvia has been praised for it's Oneirogenic effects before by many people and also there's a book called *Drugs of the Dreaming*(check it out) which mentions Salvia as a very effective Oneirogen. How come you people are so affraid of Life? All your judgement doesn't make you guys very social, let alone civilised, intellectual Forum-Debaters. Just loosen up a bit.

Give this guy a Break as he's in a very interresting, promising field of exploration that you guys would most probably never experience.
If you disagree with his positive spirit towards psychoactive plants, Well then just don't participate in this discussion and leave it for people who have similair views to the subject and want to discuss it intelligently trying to find out what to do with Salvia to benefit from it's Oneirogenic effects.

Its a shame to see every promising Dream/Psychoactive-Plant discussion being totally burried in narrowminded, selfcentered judement. I'm so sick of this Judgementality. It has ru&#239;ned the intellectual, fruitfull debates on this forum by replacing them with never ending judgement and naysaying.

Alfy, I for one, find this a good topic. I'll stick with it and help you experiment if you'd like. I don't judge until AFTER I've had pesonal experiece and then still: I would never tell others what to do and what not to do: That's up to themselves.

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## IcyDice

Very well said, thank you for that.  Great topic and lets not let it die out.

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## SKA

I have tried smoking Salvia extract 3 times,but to no avail.
Since then I learned that smoking Salvia is quite an art and a Butane lighter is required.

I haven't tried it since, because it is quite pricey to turn out to be another dud.
However I have read about a more interresting way of ingesting Salvia; Sublingual/Buccal A.K.A. Quidding.

Maybe an experiment where I would quid some salvia leaves in bed as I lay ready to fall asleep would be worthwhile. I could quid it until I start noticing effects, spit out or swallow the quid and fall asleep in the salvia-trance.

Since Salvia is quite pricey in Smartshops here I think for this purpose it'd be best to buy a small salvia plant and grow it myself for continual use. Does anyone know if it's hard or easy to grow Salvia?

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## ChaybaChayba

I tried it,  20x extract.. I didn't think I did it the right way because it did nothing! the second time, when I closed my eyes, I did enter the sleep world tho.. felt like people were pulling on my body and dragging me lol D: and I saw a huge windmill in the sky, it was really weird ^^ but then someone entered the room..

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## Funnel

> Do any of you people actually base your views & beliefs on FACTS or just the mere sound of things and "What you've head of them"? Why all the Judgement? And why all the Fear?



This can't be a serious question.  Why the judgment?  Lets see ... you are drugging your brain, pumping it with chemicals to an unnatural state of hallucinations.  Yes, we see things in dreams, but dreams are not dangerous!  If dreams were dangerous, natural selection would have wiped us out a long time ago.

Promising field of exploration?  Yes, I consider myself an explorer when I walk in circles and speak to imaginary creatures.  This all goes on while the real world around you passes.  We HAVE to sleep and we HAVE to dream, so why not spend the time lucid?  Drugs do not spend time, they waste time.  The further you disconnect from life, the more pathetic and useless you will become.

I take offense to this because this is a bad idea and we all know how quickly bad ideas spread.  It should be debated because this is not a one sided issue.  It is difficult for me to leave this issue alone and let bygones be bygones when you will not.  If you are going to fuck yourself up, please keep it to yourself and stop persuading others to join you.

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## IcyDice

Hey, don't want to get personal over this thread but, no one is persuading you to post here, not to mention that no one is encouraging you to try Salvia.  If you do not like what is going on then you are free to leave at any time.  :smiley:

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## shotbirds

When I 'tripped' all those experiences made A LOT more sense then... you actually felt what they were talking about.

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## LucidM!nds

Check this out...

Do any of you know what mint tastes like? You, know like Wrigley's gum?

...

..There's this place called The Gas Pipe. It's a smokeshop which sells mostly tobacco products, though if you go there you can get 10x - 50x strains of Salvia. A former friend and I got the 10x and smoked it together about four times. The first time, I felt myself sweating and I could've sworn that I saw my bedside lamp turn into a sunflower. That's all I remeember of the first time...

...Each time after initial use, the experiance got progressively potent. The second time we were sitting in my truck outside my house. I saw my neighbor's house develop a demonic face. The tree in my front yard had all of these things in the branches. They were some sort of creatures, bluish-purplish, and they...Weren't frendly, to say the least.
...The third and final recollection I have of this drug occured in my room. We were sitting across from each other on the bed. The lights were off, and we had lit a small candle and put it on the floor. I saw and intense explosion of colors, orangish and pink, with black and dark blue overtones...You know the animation style of "The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker"? That's what I saw...This creature looked similar to...I suppose, an octopus. It had tentacles....I was scared. I looked behind me, and saw a long void of emptiness, with a small light emanating from the bottom...
...Then, I felt my whole body become tingly, kinda like the way Wrigley's gum feels inside your mouth... Then it was over, and me friend reached out his hand, as if he were asking for help.

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## Through the Looking Glass

A) Why isn't this illegal?
B) This is the stupidest way I've heard of to become lucid since the nicotine patch. Just use B6 or galantamine/choline whatever are in those LD pills, why do need a hallucinogenic substance?

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## TTsmasher

Next thing ya know theres gonna be a SILD technique. Haha.
But I really think everybody is just being closed minded about this.

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## dream kitten

I have tried this drug. About 2 years ago, 4 friends of mine and I were really bored and decided to buy a gram of the 13x extract from Starship. We were told it was best to smoke it out of a water bong with a torch lighter, so thats what we did.

All of my friends experienced extremely vivid and intense hallucinations. I'm not really sure what this drug does, but it was definately a crazy messed up trip. I've done it about 3 times total, but I've decided it's not really a drug I enjoy using recreationally. When I tried it, I didn't feel anything for the first minute, and the next thing I know, I started to feel prickly all over. All of the sudden, I (hallucinated) sank through the couch I was sitting on, fell through the entire planet, saw a school bus full of kids floating along side me as I was falling, and some how appeared on a tiny island halfway across the world. I snapped back in and out of consciousness for the next few minutes while laughing uncontrollabley and drooling over myself. There was nothing funny about my experience, but for some reason, this drug can make a person laugh really hard.

HOWEVER... I did introduce this drug to a friend who is a advanced lucid dreamer and astral projector... and he is convinced that this drug help him "reach the next level" in astral projection and he says he gets an OBE when he does it. Soo... just my 2 cents. It's a freaky drug, but I guess its worth the experience. It's definitely one you won't forget!!

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## alfy984

> Since Salvia is quite pricey in Smartshops here I think for this purpose it'd be best to buy a small salvia plant and grow it myself for continual use. Does anyone know if it's hard or easy to grow Salvia?




the salvia users guide i posted has a faq on how to grow it... it does seem kind of difficult but it would be worth having a sally plant.  I wouldn't be surprised though if you cared for sally then sally would take care of you as well  :smiley: 





> A) Why isn't this illegal?
> B) This is the stupidest way I've heard of to become lucid since the nicotine patch. Just use B6 or galantamine/choline whatever are in those LD pills, why do need a hallucinogenic substance?



A) It is legal because it is non-toxic and non-addictive.
B) No one said you need a psychoactive substance to dream....  This is just a different way to dream.

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## little nemo

Salvia is a very interesting hallucenogenic botanical and used wisely can engender some very worthwhile experiences. I can't weigh in on its impact on Lucid Dreaming but it's effects can certainly be very dream-like. Based on my limited experience  I can make a few recommendations;

1.) Take it in quid form - chew a wad of leaves without swallowing (acids in the stomach neutralize it). Chew it for 20 to 30 minutes, and spit out excess _saliva_ as it builds up. (Use a non-breakable spit cup.) This makes the effects more gradual and gentle and prolongs the trip for up to an hour or more.
If you use it in artificially concentrated form you are much more likely to have an unpleasant or even nightmarish experience.

2.) DON'T LIGHT CANDLES, BURN INCENSE or DRIVE! Even without tripping out so far that you can't recognize physical reality your sense of balance is way off.

3.) Clear away anything that could get knocked over, broken or be a physical hazard before your trip. 

4.) Do it in private - somewhere where you can lie down and get comfortable.

5.) Dim the lights and play some mellow music. The effects of salvia can be overwhelmed by anything harsh in the ambient environment.

6.) Until you are familliar with your own dose tolerances make sure you have a sober sitter to insure your safety.

A caveat; I'm not putting this info here to encourage anyone to use salvia, I'm putting it here to encourage anyone who is determined to try it, to take a few precautions. Not too much different from those anyone should take using alcohol.

Salvia is not legal in the following states; Missouri, Louisiana, Tennessee, and Delaware. I'm guessing that in a couple of years it will be illegal in the other 46 as well.

For a whole lot more very good info on the subject go to; http://sagewisdom.org/usersguide.html  (as already posted by alfy984).

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## tommo

Whoever was saying they're too scared to try LSD and thus want to try Salvia (has probly done it by now but nevertheless) I'd advise against that logic.  Even though it lasts only a few minutes it can feel like a lifetime and is way more intense than acid.

Anyway I'm interested in trying this and am looking into buying a plant.  Got interested in it about a year or two ago and gave up my search but I'll try again soon.

I'm wondering if anyone has tried DMT, nobody can say that's unnatural, it's what makes us dream in the first place.  I want to know it's effects on dreaming etc and if you can control it like a LD.

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## alfy984

> I'm wondering if anyone has tried DMT, nobody can say that's unnatural, it's what makes us dream in the first place.  I want to know it's effects on dreaming etc and if you can control it like a LD.




I have done DMT in a Ayahuasca brew, but i did not have a breakthrough experience, although it was an intense awesome experience.  I watched the caves episode of planet earth in HD.  Check out erowid.org and read some experiences with DMT.  I read an account of one guy who said he went into an episode of CSI and was solving crimes with the characters in the show.

If you think of how we percieve as the same as how a TV picks up signals then it makes a lot more sense.  We can tune in to certain channels based on our brain chemistry.  Sometime u can only change certain aspects of a channel like color sound etc, and sometimes u can switch channels all together.  I believe this is the way dreaming, drug experiences, OBE's etc all work.  They are all connected and all aspects of dreaming.  I know some people might read this and think it is complete nonsense, but just ponder it for a while .  ::lol::

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## RunflaCruiser

I tried eating a plant called angels trumpet once. I was awake but the world was like a dream all night long. I sat on the couch and talked to strange creatures all night. Like an acid trip. A friend had tried it too that night but he went out on the town while I just stayed in. At about 7 in the morning my friends mom came over looking for him. She was worried. I answered the door but told her she couldnt come in cause there was some people over. Weird people. I went with her driving to find my friend and realized while we were at a pay phone there was a hot bikini girl waxing her station wagon. I looked away and then back again. She disappeared. I realized at that moment it was all not real. The strange people and creature were infact, just in my mind. Ooops, I told my friends mom there was strange weird people in the house.

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## tommo

alfy984 - I have read heaps of experiences, they seem really amazing.  I think what you said makes sense also.

RunflaCruiser - dumb dumb dumb.  Lol, nah curiosity is key to everything.  But I hope you know that plant has about a 2 gram LD50 (overdose dosage).  Really fucks with your head too apparently, like everything you said, it's like a dream.  I tried smoking some once and I basically just got REALLY cold all over my body instantly and then I was like WTF!? and stopped.  Dunno if I hallucinated because as you know it's very hard to tell.

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## RunflaCruiser

It was about ten years ago. You know how it is, the young party years...Me and each of my two friends ate 1 and 3/4 large flower leafs. I wouldn't try that one again but also wouldnt take back the awesome experience. One friend ended up in the hospistal (the one we went looking for).
I also couldnt see things close up for about 2 days following.

I would recommend everyone try acid atleast once in there lives. Its a really cool experience. 

But if you have to try this, the Angel's Trumpet that is, stay in the house and eat a little less than I did. And dont say I didnt warn you.

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## Bob Dole

First off Salvia is nothing like a Lucid Dream and cannot induce one either. It will, a majority of the time produce a bad trip. In fact I never met a person who tried Salvia and said, “Gee, that was fun.” It makes your brain go bye-bye for ten - fifteen minutes. You won’t know where you are, who you are, what you are. Anything you know now will go away for fifteen minutes. Really, it isn’t fun. 

Regardless, it is near harmless. It has been used for thousands of years. It isn’t addictive in anyway. It has a reverse tolerance. Meaning the more you smoke it the less you need to use to achieve the same effect. 

If you want to do drugs stick to the illegal ones. They are illegal for a reason, because they’re fun.

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## ZmillA

I'd advise against taking strong psychoactive drugs (or any that aren't strong) in an attempt to LD. Your not even talking about lucid dreaming, hallucinations arent the same thing as dreams.

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## tommo

> First off Salvia is nothing like a Lucid Dream and cannot induce one either. It will, a majority of the time produce a bad trip. In fact I never met a person who tried Salvia and said, Gee, that was fun. It makes your brain go bye-bye for ten - fifteen minutes. You wont know where you are, who you are, what you are. Anything you know now will go away for fifteen minutes. Really, it isnt fun.



Well you probably don't know many people that have tried it then....
Just search youtube and you'll find likely hundreds of good experiences on camera.  Of course there's bad trips, that's a part of hallucinogens.
People actually want to make the world go 'bye-bye' and want to lose their ego completely, that's the point.  That's why it's good.





> I'd advise against taking strong psychoactive drugs (or any that aren't strong) in an attempt to LD. Your not even talking about lucid dreaming, hallucinations arent the same thing as dreams.



On the contrary, dreams _are_ hallucinations.

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## supreme

Ive yet to see a drug that scares me! lol Or gets me addicted to it!
Although for some it might, i dont have an addictive personality.

Ill check it out, sounds freaky to me! I sure know thats its not going to
hinder my natural ways or states of LDing either.

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## WakataDreamer

Salvia gets you high. It's currently lehal, but *not for long.* 

People are currently working to outlaw it I'm the entire US.

Salvia can *mess you up.*

Don't do it.

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## ChaybaChayba

Life can mess you up. Don't live!

No I'm kidding, you're right, if you're mentally not prepared, and do not understand the laws of your mind, you shouldn't do any psychedelics at all.




> First off Salvia is nothing like a Lucid Dream and cannot induce one either. It will, a majority of the time produce a bad trip. In fact I never met a person who tried Salvia and said, “Gee, that was fun.” It makes your brain go bye-bye for ten - fifteen minutes. You won’t know where you are, who you are, what you are. Anything you know now will go away for fifteen minutes. Really, it isn’t fun. 
> 
> Regardless, it is near harmless. It has been used for thousands of years. It isn’t addictive in anyway. It has a reverse tolerance. Meaning the more you smoke it the less you need to use to achieve the same effect. 
> 
> If you want to do drugs stick to the illegal ones. They are illegal for a reason, because they’re fun.



I thought Salvia was a fun experience. And I also don't think it's a good thing to do drugs for fun. Drugs are here to explore your mind! Sure they can make you feel good, but you shouldn't do any drugs at all in order to feel good.... thats drug abuse.

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## tommo

> I thought Salvia was a fun experience. And I also don't think it's a good thing to do drugs for fun. Drugs are here to explore your mind! Sure they can make you feel good, but you shouldn't do any drugs at all in order to feel good.... thats drug abuse.




Quite true....  Although I fall under the category of a drug abuser sometimes, a lot of the time I use for mind expansion or introspection etc.

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## Bob Dole

> I thought Salvia was a fun experience. Drugs are here to explore your mind!



That isn't recreational use? Stop with the holier than thou attitude. "I do drugs, but not for fun! I'm on a serious quest for spiritual awakening." Whatever. You do them for the same reason I do them. You want a fun night. That doesn't make you a crack fiend. It's okay to admit. 





> but you shouldn't do any drugs at all in order to feel good



Yeah, because pain relief medication doesn't exist.

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## Bob Dole

> Well you probably don't know many people that have tried it then....
> Just search youtube and you'll find likely hundreds of good experiences on camera.  Of course there's bad trips, that's a part of hallucinogens.
> People actually want to make the world go 'bye-bye' and want to lose their ego completely, that's the point.  That's why it's good.
> 
> 
> On the contrary, dreams _are_ hallucinations.



Actually, I do know many people who do not like the Salvia trip. to be clearer, I never met a person who has not had a bad trip on Salvia. 

I've tried other hallucinogens before (Really, only LSD and LSA if you want to consider that a hallucinogen) and have enjoyed it somewhat. I say somewhat because really hallucinogens aren't my thing.

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## ZmillA

> On the contrary, dreams _are_ hallucinations.



Only if you pick out on part and devolve it down to the most basic of ideas, they aren't caused in the same way, they don't involve the same things, they done effect your body the same (or are effected by your body the same). Saying they are just shows you don't understand one or both of the things in question.

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## Shift

I'd never try it, but that's just me haha
I am curious, when you say that hallucinating is just like having a dream... are you able to have dream control while hallucinating? Can you summon DCs and objects? And aren't you worried about getting hurt if you act it out? Except for those it actually sounds cool, makes me wish I was a little braver to try stuff like that.

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## tommo

> That isn't recreational use? Stop with the holier than thou attitude. "I do drugs, but not for fun! I'm on a serious quest for spiritual awakening." Whatever. You do them for the same reason I do them. You want a fun night. That doesn't make you a crack fiend. It's okay to admit.



Of course it can sometimes be just for fun, but most serious psychonauts do it for enlightenment.  Period.





> Actually, I do know many people who do not like the Salvia trip. to be clearer, I never met a person who has not had a bad trip on Salvia. 
> 
> I've tried other hallucinogens before (Really, only LSD and LSA if you want to consider that a hallucinogen) and have enjoyed it somewhat. I say somewhat because really hallucinogens aren't my thing.



Not really my thing either, but people are obviously going to.... wait I said this already, READ THE POSTS PROPERLY





> Only if you pick out on part and devolve it down to the most basic of ideas, they aren't caused in the same way, they don't involve the same things, they done effect your body the same (or are effected by your body the same). Saying they are just shows you don't understand one or both of the things in question.



DMT causes dreams, DMT is a drug people smoke to hallucinate, DMT is produced by your brain naturally, therefore they are the same.





> I'd never try it, but that's just me haha
> I am curious, when you say that hallucinating is just like having a dream... are you able to have dream control while hallucinating? Can you summon DCs and objects? And aren't you worried about getting hurt if you act it out? Except for those it actually sounds cool, makes me wish I was a little braver to try stuff like that.



It's only like a dream on some hallucinogens, others are fairly different.
And no you can't control them that I know of, well you can, but only to a certain extent.  To be honest I don't think anybody has ever tried because it's part of the experience to just go along with it and see where it takes you.  See what it can teach you.

----------


## alfy984

> I'd never try it, but that's just me haha
> I am curious, when you say that hallucinating is just like having a dream... are you able to have dream control while hallucinating? Can you summon DCs and objects? And aren't you worried about getting hurt if you act it out? Except for those it actually sounds cool, makes me wish I was a little braver to try stuff like that.



You can control what happens to an extent.  But in waking reality you have other people's thoughts affecting yours too, whereas in a dream its your mind only so it is much easier to manifest things.  There have been accounts of people taking high doses of pure salvia diviniorum A, (which is active to a few micrograms) and blacking out then acting out what they see, them come back not remembering any of it.  It is wise to have sitter if you dont know what you are doing.  Also know that pure salvia A is the most potent psychadelic substance known to man as I said before active in only micrograms, which can not be weighed on a normal scale.  YOu have to treat Salvia with respect.  Salvia is not a recreational drug at all.  I use it only for meditative and psychonautical purposes.

*If you wake up to a residual feeling or image from a dream is it still dreaming or is it now a hallucination?  How can two things be defined differently when they are essentially caused by the same mechanisms with the same affects???* *Everything is connected Dreaming, Hallucination, OBE, Hypnogic Imagery, drug trips its all dreaming.   Just imagine the possibilities.*

----------


## Shift

> *If you wake up to a residual feeling or image from a dream is it still dreaming or is it now a hallucination?  How can two things be defined differently when they are essentially caused by the same mechanisms with the same affects???* *Everything is connected Dreaming, Hallucination, OBE, Hypnogic Imagery, drug trips its all dreaming.   Just imagine the possibilities.*



A residual feeling or image from a dream is neither, it would be a part of your memory, not a dream or a hallucination.

Well, it's not _all_ dreaming. They are probably all controlled by the same parts of your brain, but the input varies. It's that input that makes them different to me. That's like telling someone who is schizophrenic that the people they hear or see are just as real as real people. Sure you can debate semantics and philosophy, but there is a significant difference in a figment of someone's imagination, and their perception of something that does physically exist and take up matter. Just because your brain is providing what YOU sense, doesn't mean that why it is induced, or what is induced, is identical. And the cause for that induction is what makes them so different... I guess for me it is what the other effects are. When you take drugs, or hallucinate because of a mental disorder or some form of excessive heat or exhaustion or something, that's completely different from dreaming or having HI naturally. You are putting things in, or doing things to your body, that aren't natural. I would never mess with that stuff simply because after years of studying organic chemistry, I know better. I don't even believe in OBEs so I can't address that.

----------


## Shift

> It's only like a dream on some hallucinogens, others are fairly different.
> And no you can't control them that I know of, well you can, but only to a certain extent.  To be honest I don't think anybody has ever tried because it's part of the experience to just go along with it and see where it takes you.  See what it can teach you.



People say that about lucid dreaming, too. I don't buy into it, I think you make what you want of experiences. Someone ought to try, though.

----------


## alfy984

> They are probably all controlled by the same parts of your brain, but the input varies. It's that input that makes them different to me.



I agree the input is different, kinda like i said before about your brain being like a TV.  There are different signals from different inputs all over the world, but in the end its all the same colors, sounds, images on the same screen.

----------


## RunflaCruiser

I believe acid, peyote, angels trumpet, etc all give different experiences.
some are not like a dream while others are almost the same.

When  I took the angels trumpet flower everything I saw I believed was really there and real. It was just like a non-lucid dream until the morning came when it wore off just enough for me to become "lucid". I then realized everything I had experienced throught the night was in fact, not real.

----------


## Scarhand

Personally, I would rather put in the hard work and get a lucid naturally than inducing it with some drug.

I'm not made of money.  :tongue2:

----------


## mel_noah

All very interesting. 

For the person who mentioned that acid has never permanently damaged anyone I beg to differ. Way back when (in my younger years) I took 8 hits of pure liquid acid and the trip that ensued was amazing at first. After about an hour or so I began to over heat. My friends placed me underneath a cold shower and steam rose off of my head. I literally fried my brain that day. The excruciating pain was something I cannot really describe, to sit there tripping and know that your brain is frying like an egg on a skillet, it was extremely terrifying...talk about taking an initially good trip and turning it into something horrible! For almost two days I could not speak. For over a week I bumbled around like an idiot. To this day, (almost a decade later) at times my tongue "feels" like it is swelling and I have trouble speaking. It comes in waves, and thankfully occurs a lot less than it did in the past. 

Would I have died? I really doubt it. Can it do damage? Yes it definitely can. I was terrified of all hallucinogens after that (and for the most part I still am). 

I don't want my experience to hinder anyone elses' curiosity. Just remember that often time moderation is the key to success.

----------


## RunflaCruiser

> All very interesting. 
> 
> For the person who mentioned that acid has never permanently damaged anyone I beg to differ. Way back when (in my younger years) I took 8 hits of pure liquid acid and the trip that ensued was amazing at first. After about an hour or so I began to over heat. My friends placed me underneath a cold shower and steam rose off of my head. I literally fried my brain that day. The excruciating pain was something I cannot really describe, to sit there tripping and know that your brain is frying like an egg on a skillet, it was extremely terrifying...talk about taking an initially good trip and turning it into something horrible! For almost two days I could not speak. For over a week I bumbled around like an idiot. To this day, (almost a decade later) at times my tongue "feels" like it is swelling and I have trouble speaking. It comes in waves, and thankfully occurs a lot less than it did in the past. 
> 
> Would I have died? I really doubt it. Can it do damage? Yes it definitely can. I was terrified of all hallucinogens after that (and for the most part I still am). 
> 
> I don't want my experience to hinder anyone elses' curiosity. Just remember that often time moderation is the key to success.



Whoa.

A similar experience happened to me with only a half a hit.

Me and a friend only had a half a hit so we went to the store and bought a cylinder of concentrated orange juice. We finished of the juice and the trip began as the most beautiful awesome trip ever.
Soon I began to see sounds sparking out of the radio and the music stared to slow down and then speed up. It got very, very intense. I could feel a fire inside my chest that would burn hotter and hotter every few minutes like the pressure was building.
I went outside and couldn't tell if it was night or day and soon didn't know what state I was in anymore (Texas or Florida).

Then I saw my emotions spinning around my head and I could literally grab one with my hands and feel that particular emotion.

Really wild.

I was afraid of acid after that but decided to try it once more a few months later just to confront my fears. Without the orange juice of course. It was a nice relaxing trip.

Last was the last time I ever tripped.

----------


## tommo

fuck my whole post got deleted, I'm goin ta go shoot myself lol, GOD DAMMIT

----------


## FatalForces

Hallucinating is not the same as a lucid dream simply because you are not in control. Also, without regulating yourself you can be hurt or killed by acting out on your hallucinations.

I have never taken drugs of any kind(excluding medical drugs of course), but have considered salvia due to the fact that it is non-addictive and has no long-term side effects. My main fear with salvia is that my overactive imagination would come out and I would have a very very bad trip. I tend to worry about ghosts and spirits and things, even though I doubt they exist, and that would probably scar me for life if I had to sit through minutes of being attacked by malign entities in my hallucinations.

Still, if the occasion arose where I was in a very relaxed and calm state with an experienced trip sitter I might consider a light dose just to try it.

----------


## Happiness is a Warm Gun

Salvia: I've had extensive experience with this plant, and the biggest thing to stress is that it's NOT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NEW TO HALLUCINOGENS. In low doses you're put into a hallucinogenic trance state with a good possibility of bad trips if you're not in the proper setting/mindframe. In higher doses, you lose your sense of self-awareness, which can be terrifying, though it frequently results in a positive overall experience for the tripper. 

Another thing to stress is that salvia should be done with a sitter, someone you trust completely to make sure you don't do something that might harm yourself or others or have a bad time by tripping in a negative setting.

The high of salvia is nothing like lucid dreaming, in fact these are polar opposite experiences. One is losing self awareness while awake, and the other is gaining self awareness while dreaming.

Edit: FatalForces, I would absolutely suggest you give salvia a try under controlled circumstances. As with all hallucinogens, your mood during the trip will be entirely dependent on your surrounding environment, so just make sure you're in a calm, happy place with loved friends and you've got nothing to worry about; evil spirit attacks won't even occur to you. And once you're used to low doses, do it right (butane lighter, 50x extract) and experience ego death... it's like going on the greatest adventure of your life.

----------


## alfy984

ive read numerous "breakthrough" experiences where people claim to be thrown instantly into another world where they are conscious and fully self aware.  Sound pretty dream like to me...

----------


## Happiness is a Warm Gun

> ive read numerous "breakthrough" experiences where people claim to be thrown instantly into another world where they are conscious and fully self aware.  Sound pretty dream like to me...



But it isn't. Salvia tripping involves different parts of the brain, different brain wave states, and different body chemicals than dreaming, as well as being a fundamentally different experience. Just because ego death (or "breaking through" if you're Jim Morrison) sounds similar to dreaming when the experiences are put into words doesn't mean they're the same thing; this is just demonstrating the limitations of our ability to describe such things. 

Ego death involves the elimination of the part of your mind that needs language. You can't expect someone to accurately write a description of the experience of losing awareness of that part of their brain; it's like telling them to compose a melody that explains the theory of relativity. 

And now you're taking that melody, and recognizing that it sounds similar to a tune in a McDonalds commercial, you've become convinced that the theory of relativity is a McDonalds hamburger. So you post and tell everyone "Don't spend the time studying Einstein when you could just go eat at McDonalds!" But really you're just directing them to an unhealthy meal. 

Salvia's one of those drugs which puts you in such a different place that you're not aware of what's really happening at all. Sometimes you'll be sedentary and drooling, and other times you'll be attempting to fly from your 30th story balcony, or embrace oncoming traffic as an old friend. You're recommending a powerful substance to the inexperienced and unprepared, and that's just dangerous.

----------


## alfy984

im not recommending anything... im just stating the fact that the effects of salvia are dream like.  If someone wants to try I trust that they will do as I did and research as much as possible and read experiences before they make their decision.  
It doesn't matter what chemicals are at work in the body/brain or that we dont fully understand the mechanisms behind dreaming and salvia experiences.  The fact still remains that the experiences are similar in some ways.  Its just something to ponder....  :wink2:

----------


## Happiness is a Warm Gun

> im not recommending anything... im just stating the fact that the effects of salvia are dream like.  If someone wants to try I trust that they will do as I did and research as much as possible and read experiences before they make their decision.  
> It doesn't matter what chemicals are at work in the body/brain or that we dont fully understand the mechanisms behind dreaming and salvia experiences.  The fact still remains that the experiences are similar in some ways.  Its just something to ponder....



You're advertising salvia use as a foolproof method of reaching the lucid dream state on a forum of people trying to learn to lucid dream. If you don't think your post is designed to encourage people to try salvia, you're deluding yourself. 

The body chemicals and brainwaves/brain states matter because they can be measured to differentiate between the two experiences. 

You're right, tripping on salvia and lucid dreaming are similar experiences, in that both involve hallucination to some degree. That's where the similarities end. 

The problem with your posts is that you're not advertising these as 'similar experiences,' you mistake one for the other, and claim that salvia tripping IS lucid dreaming. Your inability to differentiate leads me to be suspicious about whether you've ever really achieved dream lucidity.

Clearly, you want us to "ponder" the difference between dreams and hallucination. This isn't the way to start that conversation.

----------


## alfy984

Maybe i am encouraging people to try salvia.   Its legal %100 nontoxic and non-addictive. If you dont like it dont post on my thread.  

You do not know for a fact that a salvia trip isn't dreaming.  You don't even know for a fact that waking life isnt just a dream and you have no idea how chemical reactions and brain wave states in the brain cause subjective experiences.   Everything i am saying is speculation and/or a paradox that can not be proved or disproved at this time.

----------


## FatalForces

> Salvia: I've had extensive experience with this plant, and the biggest thing to stress is that it's NOT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NEW TO HALLUCINOGENS. In low doses you're put into a hallucinogenic trance state with a good possibility of bad trips if you're not in the proper setting/mindframe. In higher doses, you lose your sense of self-awareness, which can be terrifying, though it frequently results in a positive overall experience for the tripper. 
> 
> Another thing to stress is that salvia should be done with a sitter, someone you trust completely to make sure you don't do something that might harm yourself or others or have a bad time by tripping in a negative setting.
> 
> The high of salvia is nothing like lucid dreaming, in fact these are polar opposite experiences. One is losing self awareness while awake, and the other is gaining self awareness while dreaming.
> 
> Edit: FatalForces, I would absolutely suggest you give salvia a try under controlled circumstances. As with all hallucinogens, your mood during the trip will be entirely dependent on your surrounding environment, so just make sure you're in a calm, happy place with loved friends and you've got nothing to worry about; evil spirit attacks won't even occur to you. And once you're used to low doses, do it right (butane lighter, 50x extract) and experience ego death... it's like going on the greatest adventure of your life.



My biggest hurdle here is finding someone that is into that sort of thing to begin with. None of my friends do drugs at all, so until I meet someone appropriate for the role of trip sitter it's just going to have to remain on my to do list.

----------


## Brainchild

> don't you take in outside stimuli in dreaming too? ive had dreams where it was storming in my dream only to wake up and see a storm outside my window.  I would say its possible to be able to control it like a lucid dream.  But its not the same and it only lasts like 10 minutes.  I agree with you that its  like comparing apples and oranges, but apples and oranges are still made of the same atoms and even then they are still about %99.999999999 empty space.  So in essence they are the same and yet they are still different.  
> 
> 
> Is it also fishy that body regulated DMT, the most powerful psychoactive substance known to man, causes you to dream every night?



Sounds interesting. I'm definitely going to try to train myself for lucids first, but if all else fails, Salvia Divinorum it is.

----------


## Happiness is a Warm Gun

> Sounds interesting. I'm definitely going to try to train myself for lucids first, but if all else fails, Salvia Divinorum it is.



This is a perfect example of why the OP's misleading statements can put people in danger. Salvia is not a replacement for learning to lucid dream any more than mescaline, DMT, LSD, mushrooms, peyote, or any of the other psychoactive drugs with similar effects are. Salvia gives you the hallucinations without the sleep paralysis to protect you, or the ability to remember that you're hallucinating. 

Alex, it's telling that you demand I leave your thread if I don't agree with your dangerous, misleading statements about this drug, when your OP actually asks for my opinion. Salvia isn't harmless, and it started the slow process of becoming illegal last year. 
Your attempt to defend your potentially harmful suggestions with the claim that your actions have no consequences because this is all a dream world and we're just figments of your imagination is absurd.

----------


## Brainchild

> This is a perfect example of why the OP's misleading statements can put people in danger. Salvia is not a replacement for learning to lucid dream any more than mescaline, DMT, LSD, mushrooms, peyote, or any of the other psychoactive drugs with similar effects are. Salvia gives you the hallucinations without the sleep paralysis to protect you, or the ability to remember that you're hallucinating. 
> 
> Alex, it's telling that you demand I leave your thread if I don't agree with your dangerous, misleading statements about this drug, when your OP actually asks for my opinion. Salvia isn't harmless, and it started the slow process of becoming illegal last year. 
> Your attempt to defend your potentially harmful suggestions with the claim that your actions have no consequences because this is all a dream world and we're just figments of your imagination is absurd.



Well, just like the other adults on here, I'm definitely not going to use Salvia until I've read up on it, but I am going to try it once. The LD king Stephen LaBerge was big into psychedelics and psychotrophics. He still touts their usefulness. 

It's all about looking before you leap.

----------


## Happiness is a Warm Gun

> Well, just like the other adults on here, I'm definitely not going to use Salvia until I've read up on it, but I am going to try it once. The LD king Stephen LaBerge was big into psychedelics and psychotrophics. He still touts their usefulness. 
> 
> It's all about looking before you leap.



Please do, as I posted earlier, ego death is something both humbling and empowering that I think everyone should experience at least once during their life. Just don't leap expecting salvia to have any connection to lucid dreaming past inducing similar hallucinations, despite what the OP claims.

----------


## supreme

People smoking Salvia and tripping on it, is all over youtube!

----------


## tommo

FatalForces -  You can actually find people who do that for a job.  they won't be in the yellow pages but you can find them.  Try forums and such.

Ok to Happiness is a Warm Gun - 
Just because it is becoming illegal does not mean it is dangerous.
Alfy is not saying 'take salvia and you'll be the LD master 2000'
He is saying it is a similar experience.

Nobody knows 100% if Salvia is dangerous, nobody knows 100% if LSD is dangerous.
This is because they've been illegal only years after they were discovered in the Western drug culture.  Therefore, no solid independent scientific studies.

Nobody has ever killed themselves on acid by jumping out a window thinking they can fly.  That is a rumor,myth etc.  Nobody has taken so much acid they think they are an orange for the rest of their life, it just doesn't happen.

What we do know is that the government has made almost everybody believe drugs will fuck your mind up.  The point is, nothing is safe.  NOTHING.  Are you going to tell people not to advise drinking 8 glasses of water before bed so they can get up, piss and do WBTB?  Large amounts of water are dangerous you know?

We are not the fucking government, we are not the head of a large company, we don't need to put a fucking warning label listing all possible side-effects of things we suggest.

Alfy said, "YOu have to treat Salvia with respect. Salvia is not a recreational drug at all. I use it only for meditative and psychonautical purposes."  and that's f'in good enough.
He also said to research as much as possible etc etc.  People CAN make their own decisions you know?  If they don't want to hallucinate they are not going to go smoke a potent hallucinogenic because it could be like an LD or could help them LD.

OKAY *sigh*.  I will say that if you are trying to use self-suggestion to LD then hallucinogenics could be a useful tool because you are getting a direct connection to your sub-conscious brain.  This would enhance every emotion as well, which could help make connection in your brain to aid in becoming lucid.  And that's why I think this is a good topic to discuss in a lucid dreaming forum.

----------


## Happiness is a Warm Gun

> FatalForces -  You can actually find people who do that for a job.  they won't be in the yellow pages but you can find them.  Try forums and such.
> 
> Ok to Happiness is a Warm Gun - 
> Just because it is becoming illegal does not mean it is dangerous.
> Alfy is not saying 'take salvia and you'll be the LD master 2000'
> He is saying it is a similar experience.
> 
> Nobody knows 100&#37; if Salvia is dangerous, nobody knows 100% if LSD is dangerous.
> This is because they've been illegal only years after they were discovered in the Western drug culture.  Therefore, no solid independent scientific studies.
> ...



Actually, he said, "I have a foolproof instant wake-induced-lucid-dream when I smoke salvia, and you can too." He may MEAN that these are two similar experiences, but it took 3 pages of misinformation and my own prodding for that to actually be said. Reread the title of this thread.

Nobody knows 100% if anything is dangerous because at best we can define "danger" as something that causes us legitimate fear, and from some perspectives there is no legitimate fear. What we DO know for sure is that those who trip on psychoactives can potentially harm their physical selves without understanding the consequences of their actions. 
For example, http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_journal4.shtml

Additionally, I won't go into detail about this incident, but I've watched a close friend go through severe psychotic trauma as a result of hallucinogens, resulting in permanent, negative, life-altering changes to his mental state. It happens, though I'm sure you feel more comfortable tripping with the belief that it doesn't.

Large amounts of water can induce water poisoning, and I definitely wouldn't ever advise someone ingest that much water instead of the normal minimum, 8 cups. You're trying to argue that because everything could be considered 'risky,' there's no reason to calculate risks before taking them. It's important that we let people make their own decisions on both risk assessment and psychadelic use by providing them accurate information, which the OP thoroughly lacks.

Your assumption that hallucinogens like salvia and LSD directly connect you to your subconscious contradicts the OP's claim that ingesting them will put you into a wake-induced-lucid-dream (which requires control of your conscious mind). 

On the topic of Fatal finding a trip sitter, because tripping with those you trust implicitly is so important for maintaining a good trip, the suggestion of hiring a stranger to trip-sit seems especially unappealing. 

I'll end with a silly question: You are faced with a choice between two options. The first possibility is option A. How do you make your decision?

----------


## Ozzi99

> All very interesting. 
> 
> For the person who mentioned that acid has never permanently damaged anyone I beg to differ. Way back when (in my younger years) I took 8 hits of pure liquid acid and the trip that ensued was amazing at first. After about an hour or so I began to over heat. My friends placed me underneath a cold shower and steam rose off of my head. I literally fried my brain that day. The excruciating pain was something I cannot really describe, to sit there tripping and know that your brain is frying like an egg on a skillet, it was extremely terrifying...talk about taking an initially good trip and turning it into something horrible! For almost two days I could not speak. For over a week I bumbled around like an idiot. To this day, (almost a decade later) at times my tongue "feels" like it is swelling and I have trouble speaking. It comes in waves, and thankfully occurs a lot less than it did in the past. 
> 
> Would I have died? I really doubt it. Can it do damage? Yes it definitely can. I was terrified of all hallucinogens after that (and for the most part I still am). 
> 
> I don't want my experience to hinder anyone elses' curiosity. Just remember that often time moderation is the key to success.




One of my friends said he had a rather scary experience with acid. He played drums after taking it and said everytime he hit a different drum it cried out in pain like they were alive. He wont play drums again because he believes they have feelings.

----------


## tommo

> Additionally, I won't go into detail about this incident, but I've watched a close friend go through severe psychotic trauma as a result of hallucinogens, resulting in permanent, negative, life-altering changes to his mental state. It happens, though I'm sure you feel more comfortable tripping with the belief that it doesn't.



Of course, everybody has seen this don't you know?  ::lol:: 
But yes, if you don't believe all the propaganda bullshit you're A LOT less likely to have a bad experience.
In a proper controlled setting LSD is one of the safest drugs ever.
That means.  Calm, doctors nearby to make you feel safe, experienced trippers to guide you, starting with low doses. etc.





> You're trying to argue that because everything could be considered 'risky,' there's no reason to calculate risks before taking them. It's important that we let people make their own decisions on both risk assessment and psychadelic use by providing them accurate information, which the OP thoroughly lacks.



No, I'm not.  I'm saying people can make their own decisions, research themselves etc.  Nobody is going to go trip balls without doing any research whatsoever just to have a lucid!  Just coz' a couple guys told them to.
If they do, on an evolutionary basis they should get chemically castrated from laced drugs.





> Your assumption that hallucinogens like salvia and LSD directly connect you to your subconscious contradicts the OP's claim that ingesting them will put you into a wake-induced-lucid-dream (which requires control of your conscious mind).



Well I didn't say that did I?
and once again, he didn't say it WAS a LD he said it is LIKE and it MAY BE one.
Well at least that's what he's saying now.  I know what you mean about the topic title though.
Anyway by having a direct connection to your subconscious you kind need something that's doing the connecting.  Which is your conscious.  I'm not saying your sub-conscious takes over, I'm saying you have an uninterrupted pathway between your conscious and unconscious mind.





> On the topic of Fatal finding a trip sitter, because tripping with those you trust implicitly is so important for maintaining a good trip, the suggestion of hiring a stranger to trip-sit seems especially unappealing. 
> 
> I'll end with a silly question: You are faced with a choice between two options. The first possibility is option A. How do you make your decision?



Yeah, they go through all the getting to know you things.  I'm sure it's fine, people do it all the time.  If that's not a good option for you you can go to a shaman, the thought of fucking with you wouldn't even cross their mind.

I don't know why you said that question but I say you fuck the options and do what you want.

----------


## Snowy Egypt

I say LD's obtained WITHOUT drugs are the best LDs. Just like I say anything done without drugs is the best way of doing things.

----------


## SKA

> I say LD's obtained WITHOUT drugs are the best LDs. Just like I say anything done without drugs is the best way of doing things.



I don't share your prejudice towards magical plants and say: LDs are LDs and if a Marvelous plant can bring dreams of a higher consciousness and so aid Lucidity, then that is very handy and positive. Your judgement of "Drugs" closes you up for great experiences resulting from the divine powers our plant allies offer us. I've allways found it hard to grasp how many people here reason that utilising Plants to aid Lucid Dreaming is unnatural. :S 






> All very interesting. 
> 
> For the person who mentioned that acid has never permanently damaged anyone I beg to differ. Way back when (in my younger years) I took 8 hits of pure liquid acid and the trip that ensued was amazing at first. After about an hour or so I began to over heat. My friends placed me underneath a cold shower and steam rose off of my head. I literally fried my brain that day. The excruciating pain was something I cannot really describe, to sit there tripping and know that your brain is frying like an egg on a skillet, it was extremely terrifying...talk about taking an initially good trip and turning it into something horrible! For almost two days I could not speak. For over a week I bumbled around like an idiot. To this day, (almost a decade later) at times my tongue "feels" like it is swelling and I have trouble speaking. It comes in waves, and thankfully occurs a lot less than it did in the past. 
> 
> Would I have died? I really doubt it. Can it do damage? Yes it definitely can. I was terrified of all hallucinogens after that (and for the most part I still am). 
> 
> I don't want my experience to hinder anyone else’s' curiosity. Just remember that often time moderation is the key to success.



*Side Note about Acid:*
8 hits of pure acid? Well Acid is harmless, UNLESS off course you take the rediculous dose you took. Take too much of anything and it will be poisonous. Even water. Google "Water Poisoning". Somehow it would never occur to me to take 8 hits of acid. I've allways thought 1,5 blotter is the limit of desirable effects. Heard more of such stories from a friend who's lived in Hawaii for 2 years: In the US people seem to take AT least 4 hits a time and usually alot more.  You simply OverDosed massively. It was you being dangerious, not Acid. Everyone who DOES acid should know that a standard dose and good trip is in between 200 and 400 *micrograms*. 8 hits of pure acid, assuming they were 400microgram doses(Pure acid: Liquid?) it means you took about 3200 micrograms: A REDICULOUSLY large dose.
OFF COURSE you experienced physical symptoms. A somewhat wiser user, like me, would know that taking that much is likely to result in physical symptoms and undesirably strong psychedelic effects. That won't ever happen if you take a normal dose; In between 200 micrograms and 400 micrograms. In blotters that translates into 1 good blotter(douced in acid). Why take so much?? Off course even acid can bring unhealthy physical symptoms if taken in large enough doses.

LSD: A briljant substance, with alot of not-so-briljant users unfortunately: This is what gives substances such as acid a bad name: The users who are wreckless. SO wreckless that they can probably get into great trouble playing Golf. When you want to do a drug, you'd do good going to erowid and read experience reports about it, especially the ones of folks who took it way TOO FAR. Your hyperthermia-acid experience was due to you being uninformed about a reasonable and safe dose. Had you reac Erowid Experience reports of LSD this would have Certainly Never have happened and you'd also find out that it doesn't take more than 400 micrograms to have an absolutely intense, but managable psychedelic experience.

'Nuff about acid. 


Back ontopic: Salvia.
I have recently smoked some Salvia 10X extract(enhanced leaf) in a Joint. (What a wastefull method, but I wanted only minor effects:which I got)Actually I smoked 4 joints of some tobacco and 1/4th of the 0,5 grams of the extract per joint. I felt effects that were very appearant, entrancing, calmative and my attention was superstrong as with more psychedelics. Only the Clearity, of thought and Vision, was even more striking. It was as though the entire room suddenly fell silent. Much like a Non-breakthrough DMT experience.

I see how this Psychedelic Clearity, Focus and Entrancement can briljantly interact with Dreaming. So why don't you people keep your ignorant judgement to yourselves, while I and some other folks here explore the Oneirogenic potential of Salvia Divinorum?
 If the Psychedelic experience is nothing for you, simply leave this Topic alone.
This is no moral discussion-Topic. This is an exploration topic. We will go there where you won't dare. Love it or hate it, but we're not waiting for your ignorant views of Magical plants. We have our own views. And since we defend them quite fiercely, assume we must have a good reason to do so.

If Salvia and Dreaming are to interact in a desirable way then I'd place a bet on Taking Salvia or Salvia Extract("Fortified" or "Enhanced" Leaf) Sublingually/Bucally as one is going to sleep (preferably in a WBTB fashion) I'm down for some Salvia Dreaming experimentation. I'll let you know when I'm up for it.

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## Snowy Egypt

> I don't share your prejudice towards magical plants and say: LDs are LDs and if a Marvelous plant can bring dreams of a higher consciousness and so aid Lucidity, then that is very handy and positive. Your judgement of "Drugs" closes you up for great experiences resulting from the divine powers our plant allies offer us. I've allways found it hard to grasp how many people here reason that utilising Plants to aid Lucid Dreaming is unnatural. :S



I didn't say it was unnatural, I said having an LD without any drug is the best LD. And maybe I want to "close myself up for great experiences". If it makes me happy, then that's what matters to me. Divine powers my butt. The more you talk to me and say I'm missing out, the more I'm going to think of you like a person who pushes Religion on a non-religious person.

Take you "Divine" drugs for all I care. I'll stay happy without drugs, and have my LDs through practice and patience while being "ignorant".

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## lucid4sho

SALVIA = GUARANTEED INSTANT LD !!!!
 ::aphiusiscrazy::   ::muffin::   ::banana:: 

NOW IN CHERRY FLAVOR

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## Marvo



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## tommo

Meh, your entire brain is made up of chemicals.  There's some food for thought.

Listen to SKA and go bitch in your own thread.

Snowy Egypt - Just like you aren't going to 'convert' so to speak.  We aren't going to either.  Can't you see how ignorant you are?  Not just about drugs.
And it's not a 'religion' per se, just a choice.

In fact, I'm going to make my own thread so you bitches can bitch in your own thread about how we all fuck our brains up like a bitch and don't achieve 'natural' LD's and we suck ass at LD'ing and we are bitches to drugs.  See how long that can last and how much you have to talk about.  "Drugs are bad for you"  "yeh" "yeh" "no shit" "yeh" "true" "stoners suck" "yeh" "i agree"........ etc.

SKA - Did the Salvia have any effect on your dreaming that night? Please tell us how it goes if you do the chewing method.
I seem to remember a thread about this a while back but none of us ever got around to experimenting lol

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## Shift

> Meh, your entire brain is made up of chemicals.  There's some food for thought.



Yea seriously, nearly _everything_ is made up of chemicals, and pretty much everything that isn't is related in some way to chemicals or parts of chemicals.

Guys if you are gonna complain about drugs, use specific reasons. Don't say things are bad for you just because your government happened to outlaw them (which is irrelevant, in some places it's illegal to walk your dog or for men and women to speak to one another), or because you do not do them. And you can't just say that LDing the "natural" way is better than using any sort of supplement, especially if you haven't ever tried it enough times to actually know for yourself. You can't make generalizations and say taking salvia is worse than LDing naturally, but that it is ok to take B6 supplements, because what if someone eats a lot of peanut butter and jelly, so they end up eating a ton of niacin every day? As opposed to someone who only eats peanut butter once a week, or not at all, and doesn't eat nearly as much niacin. I mean, where do you draw the line? They are all chemical compounds that you are putting into your body. Why say one is better than the other? If you are going to, give actual scientific reasons.

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## Happiness is a Warm Gun

> Guys if you are gonna complain about drugs, use specific reasons. Don't say things are bad for you just because your government happened to outlaw them (which is irrelevant, in some places it's illegal to walk your dog or for men and women to speak to one another), or because you do not do them. And you can't just say that LDing the "natural" way is better than using any sort of supplement, especially if you haven't ever tried it enough times to actually know for yourself. You can't make generalizations and say taking salvia is worse than LDing naturally, but that it is ok to take B6 supplements, because what if someone eats a lot of peanut butter and jelly, so they end up eating a ton of niacin every day? As opposed to someone who only eats peanut butter once a week, or not at all, and doesn't eat nearly as much niacin. I mean, where do you draw the line? They are all chemical compounds that you are putting into your body. Why say one is better than the other? If you are going to, give actual scientific reasons.



Where in the world is it illegal to walk your dog, or speak to members of the opposite sex? Are these practices outlawed for public safety like the use of the drugs we're discussing, or due to social/cultural conventions? Considering that you're criticizing others for using faulty reasoning, your post is fairly hypocritical.

Why can't I make the argument that LDing the 'natural' way is best? My goal is to have as much control over my body as possible without being dependent on the aid of foreign substances. I don't think it's a wise tradeoff to make it easier for yourself to gain lucidity at the cost of becoming dependent on substances, when you could put a bit more effort in and be able to LD without needing external aid. 

The reason Vitamin B6 is 'allowed' is that it plays a major role in aiding macronutrient metabolism, neurotransmitter synthesis, histamine synthesis, hemoglobin synthesis and function and gene expression. The illegal drugs in question have no positive effects on body functions, and are actually often harmful to your body, as is their method of ingestion. Though everything breaks down into chemical compounds, vitamins and hallucinogens are definitely not equally safe or beneficial.

Here's the simple scientific reasoning why B6 is not comparable to salvia as a lucid dreaming aid:
*Salvia does not induce lucid dreaming in any way*
Salvia is a dissociative (its effects are much more like PCP than DMT). It blocks signals to the conscious mind from other parts of the brain. Though it induces dream-like hallucination, there is no consciousness involved, and thus no lucidity. In other words, if you think that being on salvia is like being in a lucid dream you've never experienced lucidity, because salvia produces the exact opposite effect, putting you into a LESS lucid state.

My point isn't "don't do drugs," and isn't even "don't do salvia" (though dissociatives and especially salvia are well known for having a higher frequency of "bad trips" than most abused drugs). My point is that you've got no business recommending mind-altering substances to people when you clearly know very little about the substances in question. It takes many years of education to understand these substances; simply experiencing them doesn't even give you the basics of what you need to know to be able to safely or responsibly recommend them to others

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## lucid4sho

> *Salvia does not induce lucid dreaming in any way*
> Salvia is a dissociative (its effects are much more like PCP than DMT). It blocks signals to the conscious mind from other parts of the brain. Though it induces dream-like hallucination, there is no consciousness involved, and thus no lucidity. In other words, if you think that being on salvia is like being in a lucid dream you've never experienced lucidity, because salvia produces the exact opposite effect, putting you into a LESS lucid state.



LOL  ::-P:  ! OMG you have no clue. Clearly you've never smoked enough salvinorin or dmt to reach breakthrough. Past the point of breakthrough the effects of salvia and dmt are identical for most people. When I smoke pure salvinorin-a and dmt crystals to the point of breakthrough I experience 'dreams' in perfect detail with complete lucidity, more real than my average ld. 

If you fall short of breakthrough with salvia, its often unpleasant, but with dmt its usually still enjoyable. So I prefer dmt because there is less risk of a bad experience if you don't breakthrough. It is nearly impossible to breakthrough on most salvia extracts because they are not pure enough, unless you combine an maoi, which I definitely don't recommend. So you need pure crystals and a crack style pipe. The only reliable source for crystals I know of is ethnogarden.

Most people have at least partial lucidity during a breakthrough, but the level of awareness depends on the person.

I understand you are trying to protect people, but these substances are very short acting and have a very low toxicity, as long as people are smart and use a baby sitter its not very risky. The majority of people I introduce to these substances never use them more than once or twice because of the intensity of the experience, whether they reach breakthrough or not, but even though they don't want to do it again, most people admit it was a great learning experience.

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## Happiness is a Warm Gun

> LOL  ! OMG you have no clue. Clearly you've never smoked enough salvinorin or dmt to reach breakthrough. Past the point of breakthrough the effects of salvia and dmt are identical for most people. When I smoke pure salvinorin-a and dmt crystals to the point of breakthrough I experience 'dreams' in perfect detail with complete lucidity, more real than my average ld. 
> 
> If you fall short of breakthrough with salvia, its often unpleasant, but with dmt its usually still enjoyable. So I prefer dmt because there is less risk of a bad experience if you don't breakthrough. It is nearly impossible to breakthrough on most salvia extracts because they are not pure enough, unless you combine an maoi, which I definitely don't recommend. So you need pure crystals and a crack style pipe. The only reliable source for crystals I know of is ethnogarden.
> 
> Most people have at least partial lucidity during a breakthrough, but the level of awareness depends on the person.
> 
> I understand you are trying to protect people, but these substances are very short acting and have a very low toxicity, as long as people are smart and use a baby sitter its not very risky. The majority of people I introduce to these substances never use them more than once or twice because of the intensity of the experience, whether they reach breakthrough or not, but even though they don't want to do it again, most people admit it was a great learning experience.



You obviously don't know much about dissociatives like salvia and pcp, which can resemble hallucinogens like LSD and DMT (when taken in large enough doses that you're too high to be able to tell the difference) but have completely different effects on your body and brain. I'm not just trying to protect people, I'm trying to end this stupid discussion, because salvia doesn't put you into a lucid dream state, no matter how much of it you smoke.

I've experienced ego death a variety of ways, including through salvia. Ego death, by most definitions, involves a loss of your sense of self (you can't tell where "you" stop and "your environment" starts). That sense of self is required for lucidity, to remember the difference between you and your dream environment. Lucid dreaming and ego death are more opposite than alike, with the only similarities being the hallucinations.

Again, it requires years of schooling for you to be remotely qualified to prescribe mind-altering substances to people, because simply taking them (and talking your friends into it) doesn't mean you know anything about them, or how they affect people. LOL  ::-P:  ! OMG you have no clue.

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## Shift

> Where in the world is it illegal to walk your dog, or speak to members of the opposite sex? Are these practices outlawed for public safety like the use of the drugs we're discussing, or due to social/cultural conventions? Considering that you're criticizing others for using faulty reasoning, your post is fairly hypocritical.
> 
> Why can't I make the argument that LDing the 'natural' way is best? My goal is to have as much control over my body as possible without being dependent on the aid of foreign substances. I don't think it's a wise tradeoff to make it easier for yourself to gain lucidity at the cost of becoming dependent on substances, when you could put a bit more effort in and be able to LD without needing external aid. 
> 
> The reason Vitamin B6 is 'allowed' is that it plays a major role in aiding macronutrient metabolism, neurotransmitter synthesis, histamine synthesis, hemoglobin synthesis and function and gene expression. The illegal drugs in question have no positive effects on body functions, and are actually often harmful to your body, as is their method of ingestion. Though everything breaks down into chemical compounds, vitamins and hallucinogens are definitely not equally safe or beneficial.
> 
> Here's the simple scientific reasoning why B6 is not comparable to salvia as a lucid dreaming aid:
> *Salvia does not induce lucid dreaming in any way*
> Salvia is a dissociative (its effects are much more like PCP than DMT). It blocks signals to the conscious mind from other parts of the brain. Though it induces dream-like hallucination, there is no consciousness involved, and thus no lucidity. In other words, if you think that being on salvia is like being in a lucid dream you've never experienced lucidity, because salvia produces the exact opposite effect, putting you into a LESS lucid state.
> ...



Well first of all I'm not recommending mind-altering substances, I don't even drink. I'm talking about arguing about what sort of LD is better and not actually saying anything except that "X is better!" Forums are for discussions, so people should post in depth so that we can discuss and not just have shallow arguments. If I'm gonna remain subscribed to this post then I hope more people post like you did, so that there is actual value to reading the debates going on.

Anyway, there is no sense in arguing about what makes the "best" LD simply because it's all subjective, people want different things out of them so "best" really doesn't mean anything. But your post is what I am talking about, thorough responses that include scientific information versus simple opinions that people post as statements. Even then I'm not sure how accurate your info is, but at least you are trying to support your statements. Nothing makes a "natural" LD better than a LD that was achieved somehow through the use of a drug, it's just your opinion that not having to use a drug is better. Unless there is scientific proof that a natural LD is clearer, or recalled better, then you can't really state that they are better. And even then, you only can if it is a _better_  method for them to be clear and easily remembered. Maybe there is a natural LDer out there who is sick and tired of remembering their lucids, and so for them "better" means hazy and difficult to remember. I've read about stuff like that on here. Anyway, everyone define best before starting arguments. Otherwise, how do you even know what you are arguing about?

Dog-walking has been outlawed in public in parts of Saudi Arabia by the religious police who don't want men using their dogs as a reason to speak with women... or so they news has been reporting. I don't just make this stuff up, at the very least someone else does it for me. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=93138643 

But just because this is a socio/cultural convention doesn't mean anything. During prohibition, some people continued to drink and others criticized and incarcerated those people for drinking. Why? Mainly because they were blinded by religion and/or government (and sometimes these are the same thing). But scientists keep scientifically supporting the notion that alcohol (in moderate amounts) can actually be good for you http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcohol/SC00024 . Just because things are outlawed doesn't mean that they are harmful (in either excessive or moderate amounts), and vice versa. So my point in bringing that up is that people should question laws, and find the true reason for why things are illegal. I'm also trying to point it out that it is important to not just assume that because there is a law against something, it is bad. Sometimes "good" things or the "right" things are outlawed.

So the whole point of my getting involved in this thread is to ask people to support their statements, hopefully linking to scientific articles, or at least to elaborate.

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## lucid4sho

> You obviously don't know much about dissociatives like salvia and pcp, which can resemble hallucinogens like LSD and DMT (when taken in large enough doses that you're too high to be able to tell the difference) but have completely different effects on your body and brain. I'm not just trying to protect people, I'm trying to end this stupid discussion, because salvia doesn't put you into a lucid dream state, no matter how much of it you smoke.
> 
> I've experienced ego death a variety of ways, including through salvia. Ego death, by most definitions, involves a loss of your sense of self (you can't tell where "you" stop and "your environment" starts). That sense of self is required for lucidity, to remember the difference between you and your dream environment. Lucid dreaming and ego death are more opposite than alike, with the only similarities being the hallucinations.
> 
> Again, it requires years of schooling for you to be remotely qualified to prescribe mind-altering substances to people, because simply taking them (and talking your friends into it) doesn't mean you know anything about them, or how they affect people. LOL  ! OMG you have no clue.



When I fall short of a breakthrough with salvia it is almost guaranteed that I will experience an unbelievably terrifying ego death, that is why I no longer us it to break through. Now I only use a little bit of regular leaf before bed as an aid.  

I understand it is hard to believe until you've experienced it, I was extremely skeptical before it happened to me. When you break through, whether you use salvia or dmt, it is like a super vivid dream, not everyone is lucid every time, but most have some awareness. 

I don't claim to know how salvia really affects the mind, nobody really knows at this point. I just know first hand that you can experience something very comparable to an ld with it. I'm not trying to command anyone to try these drugs, I am just being honest about my own experiences and the countless experiences of other people I have witnessed.

Sorry I came off as insulting, i get excited by this topic.

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## Happiness is a Warm Gun

Ego death is the formal name for breaking through, they're synonyms. When you fall short of ego death (or breaking through) you have a bad trip because your sense of self is being noticeably eroded, which is scary. When your sense of self is completely gone fear goes too, but if you don't hit that point, feeling your understanding and control over your environment break down usually results in a bad trip.

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## tommo

> Where in the world is it illegal to walk your dog, or speak to members of the opposite sex?



The place Shift already mentioned, plus a lot of beaches and parks near my area it is illegal to walk your dog there.  I'm sure you know what I'm talking about now that you think about it.




> The reason Vitamin B6 is 'allowed' is that it plays a major role in aiding macronutrient metabolism, neurotransmitter synthesis, histamine synthesis, hemoglobin synthesis and function and gene expression. The illegal drugs in question have no positive effects on body functions, and are actually often harmful to your body, as is their method of ingestion. Though everything breaks down into chemical compounds, vitamins and hallucinogens are definitely not equally safe or beneficial.



Actually Vitamin supplement have been proven to increase your risk of all kinds of diseases, most notably heart failure because you get too much vitamins.  Just look at b12/b6 supplements it says on the bottle like 2000% of your daily recommended intake.
Plus who says Salvia doesn't do everything vitamins do except better?  We don't know yet so you can't just say they don't do anything beneficial.
B6 and b12 however may not do anything beneficial at all....
http://ezinearticles.com/?Multivitam...-Ugly&id=15318
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...=&pagewanted=2





> Here's the simple scientific reasoning why B6 is not comparable to salvia as a lucid dreaming aid:
> *Salvia does not induce lucid dreaming in any way*
> Salvia is a dissociative (its effects are much more like PCP than DMT). It blocks signals to the conscious mind from other parts of the brain. Though it induces dream-like hallucination, there is no consciousness involved, and thus no lucidity. In other words, if you think that being on salvia is like being in a lucid dream you've never experienced lucidity, because salvia produces the exact opposite effect, putting you into a LESS lucid state.



BAHAHA.snort* "snigger snigger*
Ok first of all it is nothing like PCP, at ALL!
Obviously _you've_ never experienced Salvia.





> My point isn't "don't do drugs," and isn't even "don't do salvia" (though dissociatives and especially salvia are well known for having a higher frequency of "bad trips" than most abused drugs). My point is that you've got no business recommending mind-altering substances to people when you clearly know very little about the substances in question. It takes many years of education to understand these substances; simply experiencing them doesn't even give you the basics of what you need to know to be able to safely or responsibly recommend them to others



So you have these years of education?
It works both ways you know....
Is there a course on this?  Coz' I wouldn't take it if there was.
Experience is the best teacher.  You could get 'educated' for your whole life, and still know fuck all because you were taught bullshit.  Why do you think there is even good, positive essays, books and stories about drugs?  Because people A) tried it before it was illegal and know it's not all bad and B) heard what the government/parents/teachers told them and decided, "well, I'll see for myself before I take it as truth".





> I've experienced ego death a variety of ways, including through salvia. Ego death, by most definitions, involves a loss of your sense of self (you can't tell where "you" stop and "your environment" starts). That sense of self is required for lucidity, to remember the difference between you and your dream environment. Lucid dreaming and ego death are more opposite than alike, with the only similarities being the hallucinations.



In Ego Death, you don't even know who _you_ are.  So you wouldn't even be able to talk about you and your environment in that way if you had actually had Ego Death.  Plus a breakthrough experience is past Ego Death, if I'm not mistaken.  I've never experiences this level, so I'll just have to take the majority of peoples word for it at this point.




> I don't claim to know how salvia really affects the mind, nobody really knows at this point. I just know first hand that you can experience something very comparable to an ld with it. I'm not trying to command anyone to try these drugs, I am just being honest about my own experiences and the countless experiences of other people I have witnessed.







> Anyway, there is no sense in arguing about what makes the "best" LD simply because it's all subjective, people want different things out of them so "best" really doesn't mean anything. .... Nothing makes a "natural" LD better than a LD that was achieved somehow through the use of a drug, it's just your opinion that not having to use a drug is better. Unless there is scientific proof that a natural LD is clearer, or recalled better, then you can't really state that they are better. And even then, you only can if it is a _better_  method for them to be clear and easily remembered. Maybe there is a natural LDer out there who is sick and tired of remembering their lucids, and so for them "better" means hazy and difficult to remember. I've read about stuff like that on here. Anyway, everyone define best before starting arguments. Otherwise, how do you even know what you are arguing about?



I agree, and this could also apply to Salvia and why some people get an LD at breakthrough point and others don't.
I define best as being pretty much completely in control but still having something to challenge you to make you better and to make the dream interesting.  Last for a fairly long time, like more than 20 minutes.  Can't think of anything else atm.





> Ego death is the formal name for breaking through, they're synonyms. When you fall short of ego death (or breaking through) you have a bad trip because your sense of self is being noticeably eroded, which is scary. When your sense of self is completely gone fear goes too, but if you don't hit that point, feeling your understanding and control over your environment break down usually results in a bad trip.



Uhhhh, no.  Most people who take these hallucinogens are doing it simply _to_ experience Ego Death, therefore it wouldn't be terrifying, quite the contrary actually.  It would be exciting!

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## lucid4sho

> Ego death is the formal name for breaking through, they're synonyms. When you fall short of ego death (or breaking through) you have a bad trip because your sense of self is being noticeably eroded, which is scary. When your sense of self is completely gone fear goes too, but if you don't hit that point, feeling your understanding and control over your environment break down usually results in a bad trip.



I've read countless books on dmt and the term breakthrough is always used to describe reaching the 'dream' state with salvia or dmt. Try reading some mckenna for a good description of what you can potentially experience past the point of breakthrough. Heres a decent random link describing the difference. http://www.lycaeum.org/drugs.old/oth...gandz.dmt.html

Whether its salvinorin or dmt, I usually can reach the dream state with a single massive hit of pure crystals from a freebase pipe, but if I exhale my hit and am not instantly transported, then I try to take another hit asap, which is not always possible if I am too disoriented already. Rarely I will spontaneously lose awareness and afterwards it feels like I am waking up from general anesthesia. Sometimes its possible to still feel ego loss after I breakthrough, but it is no where near as frightening as when I don't.

If I don't manage to reach the dream state, I will have to watch my world and ego torn apart, especially with salvia. When I do reach the dream state, whether its with salvia or dmt, the results are the exact same. I'm suddenly in a very vivid dream world and am fully aware that I just smoked a drug. The experience varies a lot, sometimes its unbelievable out of this world type stuff, and other times its more just like a typical ld and I am walking around a place that resembles earth. Also my degree of lucidity varies.

One thing to note is that it is extremely difficult to breakthrough more than once in a day. Also if you attempt it and fail, you should wait 24 hours before attempting it again or it will be really difficult.

I'm glad you are concerned about people but its not helping anyone to provide misinformation. Do a lot more reading and maybe get some more first hand experience so you can properly discuss this topic.

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## alfy984

http://www.talesfromtheotherside.com...alvia-art1.JPG

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## SKA

> I didn't say it was unnatural, I said having an LD without any drug is the best LD. And maybe I want to "close myself up for great experiences". If it makes me happy, then that's what matters to me. Divine powers my butt. The more you talk to me and say I'm missing out, the more I'm going to think of you like a person who pushes Religion on a non-religious person.
> 
> Take you "Divine" drugs for all I care. I'll stay happy without drugs, and have my LDs through practice and patience while being "ignorant".



Off course I am "trying to convert you" to my point of View. I'm showing you my Point of view, just as much as you're showing me your point of view and try to "convert me" to it. Isn't it what they call discussion? It could be me, but isn't that the reason that people are on discussion boards?

no need to get offended. Divine powers may be bullshit to someone who has never experienced them. Doesn't mean it is all gibberish and hocus-pocus nonsense. Im indeed telling you that you are missing out on alot, wether you would like it or not. It is like this: imagine having found a tunnel in an old deserted, disconnected metrotube. You follow it and it leads to a bright vortex-gate which ends up in another world full of unimaginable beings and sceneries. A very exquisite world. Overwhelming, Beautyfull, Full of wonder, sometimes even a littlebit too overwhelming and humbling. You could safely say that, allthough such a world is not a desirable place for everyone, everyone who doesn't know it and has never been there is indeed missing out on quite a bit, wouldn't you agree?

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## Happiness is a Warm Gun

> I'm glad you are concerned about people but its not helping anyone to provide misinformation. Do a lot more reading and maybe get some more first hand experience so you can properly discuss this topic.



It's funny, that's the same advice I'd give you. I can understand how you and tommo might think high doses of dissociatives (like salvia, PCP) put you in the same place as high doses of hallucinogens (like DMT, LSD) if you've only had the 'first hand experience' without the medical/pharmaceutical training that encompasses the 'other half' of understanding how these drugs affect you, but the differences greatly outnumber the few similarities.

I'm not sure exactly what you felt was misinformation in my post, since you didn't directly address that, but I'm not surprised that the 'countless' books you've read have referred to ego death as 'breakthrough,' because that use of informal diction says something I already suspected about the quality of your reference material. 

But we can sit and argue about who's more qualified, who's reading credible sources, and who's 'had the experience,' all day without getting anywhere, so let's get back to the subject at hand. To paraphrase my last post, for the purposes of our discussion on the topic, when I refer to 'ego death' I'm referring to the thing that happens after you break through, which involves dream-like hallucinations, and a loss of your sense of self, resulting in a merging of 'you' and 'your environment.'

Additionally, you might be surprised that the 'come up' from smoking salvia vs pure salvinorin is as different in my experience as that of weed to pure thc.

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## alfy984

*What is real?  If you can smell, touch, hear, see and taste does that make it real?  All you really sense is what your brain interprets as a sense from an electrical signal.  Where do these signals come from?  If we can only see an interpretation of reality then who is to say that we know what real is at all.  Could it be possible drug trips, dreaming, obe's, astral recall or anything of this nature is just another interpretation of real.  You wouldn't read just one book of all the books in the world and come up with an interpretation of human civilization based on one view.  The fact is we just don't know.*

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## Happiness is a Warm Gun

> What is real?  If you can smell, touch, hear, see and taste does that make it real?  All you really sense is what your brain interprets as a sense from an electrical signal.  Where do these signals come from?  If we can only see an interpretation of reality then who is to say that we know what real is at all.  Could it be possible drug trips, dreaming, obe's, astral recall or anything of this nature is just another interpretation of real.  You wouldn't read just one book of all the books in the world and come up with an interpretation of human civilization based on one view.  The fact is we just don't know.



This is going to be a long post, but your initial question requires a long answer.

IMO we DO know what's real, because concepts like 'real' and 'imaginary' are human creations, born of our need to find a 'common ground' in our experiences. To this end, we've developed the rules of logic and the scientific method as the general consensus of what defines 'real.' If the experience can be reliably reproduced with evidence, and follows logic, then it's real. 

Because the point of the concept of reality is finding a foundation for mutual understanding (common ground), the only definition of reality that matters is the one that follows the general consensus. So, the fact that you can intentionally alter your personal definition of reality, or interpret reality differently than someone else, is irrelevant, because doing so is simply deteriorating your ability to communicate your experiences. 

This is all fairly 'out there,' so maybe an example will make my point slightly clearer. If you say you can become invisible to the human eye as long as no one's watching, your powers of invisibility are imaginary. That doesn't mean you're not telling the truth. It just means that you've got no way to prove or demonstrate your ability, so we've got no common ground with which to evaluate the experience. 

Or, for a more relevant example, let's take our current discussion. When you break through on salvia, you may experience the exact same phenomenon that occurs when you achieve dream lucidity, or when you have high doses of DMT. But you've got absolutely no way to prove that to anyone else, and the only reproducible evidence of these events shows drastic physiological differences between them. So, I can conclude that your altered mental state is having an effect on your ability to differentiate between these experiences, and you can conclude that they're the same experience, but the bottom line is that for the purpose of communicating these events, their similarity is imaginary, because the only common ground is proof of their dissimilarity.

Everyone interested in ego death/breaking through, lucid dreaming, philosophy, or even physics eventually asks, "What is reality?" My conclusion, which formed the basis of this post, is that individual reality doesn't exist. There is only individual experience, and 'reality' is the general consensus of the common ground in those experiences, as defined by accepted rules.

----------


## lucid4sho

> It's funny, that's the same advice I'd give you. I can understand how you and tommo might think high doses of dissociatives (like salvia, PCP) put you in the same place as high doses of hallucinogens (like DMT, LSD) if you've only had the 'first hand experience' without the medical/pharmaceutical training that encompasses the 'other half' of understanding how these drugs affect you, but the differences greatly outnumber the few similarities.
> 
> I'm not sure exactly what you felt was misinformation in my post, since you didn't directly address that, but I'm not surprised that the 'countless' books you've read have referred to ego death as 'breakthrough,' because that use of informal diction says something I already suspected about the quality of your reference material. 
> 
> But we can sit and argue about who's more qualified, who's reading credible sources, and who's 'had the experience,' all day without getting anywhere, so let's get back to the subject at hand. To paraphrase my last post, for the purposes of our discussion on the topic, when I refer to 'ego death' I'm referring to the thing that happens after you break through, which involves dream-like hallucinations, and a loss of your sense of self, resulting in a merging of 'you' and 'your environment.'
> 
> Additionally, you might be surprised that the 'come up' from smoking salvia vs pure salvinorin is as different in my experience as that of weed to pure thc.




I'm glad you are admitting that dream like hallucination is part of breaking through, thats all I'm saying. When some people breakthrough they may still experience ego death along with a vivid dream, that is not the case for me and many others, I usually just get the dream with normal perception.

Theres plenty of people and writings supporting what I've said, anyone who spends a minute researching will see I am truthful.  
I'm not saying all the info in every book is accurate, but they are still informative. try
http://www.lycaeum.org/books/plantsc...strassdmt.html

Neither of us can claim to really understand salvinorin, especially because it is not an alkaloid and its action in the body is not yet fully understood.

I agree normal salvia extracts are completely different from pure salvinorin, i tried to emphasize that so people understand that its nearly impossible to break through without pure salvinorin and it really helps to have a freebase pipe.

----------


## lucid4sho

When you are trying to WILD and you experience SP, it can be very scary and disorientating, you can see and hear hallucinations, and you may get a sense of detachment. Yet when you get past SP into the dream, it is usually peaceful and your perception returns to near normal.

For me that is exactly the way salvinorin and dmt work. When I fall short of a breakthrough it is very comparable to SP, i hear crazy sounds, see bizzare visions, feel terrifying sensations, and my perception is extremely disoriented and detached, especially with salvinorin. Yet when I break through it is more like a very vivid LD. Salvinorin and dmt both do this, the main perceivable difference is the SP type effects from salvinorin are typically more frightening and unpleasent than from dmt.

Really it is not a short cut to LDing because it seems that only people who are already skilled at LDing are good at being lucid during the breakthrough, the average person is likely to forget most of the experience.

----------


## Happiness is a Warm Gun

I've said since my first post in this thread that the dream-like hallucinations are what make salvia trips and lucid dreaming similar, that wasn't a new admission.

In fact, nothing I'm saying is new at this point. To reiterate my previous posts:
If you're not experiencing ego death, you're not breaking through completely, because 'breaking through' is the informal term for the process of achieving ego death. What you describe in your post sounds to me like a typical non-breakthrough salvia trip, though I wasn't clear on whether you were saying you were able to control your trip reality like one can with the lucid dream reality.

Salvia isn't a shortcut to LDing because LDing isn't the same thing as tripping on salvia. The two experiences involve different brain-wave states, and different parts of your brain being activated/shut down.

Finally, it's entirely possible to break through without pure salvinorin, or even salvia extract. It's all a matter of bowl size and flame intensity. But it's definitely impossible if you're smoking like you would smoke marijuana.

----------


## lucid4sho

Maybe its impossible for you to reach something similar to an LD with salvia, but I'm not the only one who can. 

Not much is known about how salvia works other than that its a kappa opioid receptor agonist. Here is a few links discussing the possibility that salvia can induce a REM like state:

"Although the mechanism of action is not fully understood,
it is said to result in REM activity while still awake." Lisa Booze, PharmD, CSPI
http://www.umaryland.edu/bin/g/w/July2003tidbits.pdf

"Its leaves contain a hallucinogenic compound unlike any other. Its properties are more rightly classified as oneirogenic (dream-inducing), as it induces an involuntary state similar to REM sleep. "  http://tryptamind.com/salvia_divinorum.html

"In summary, salvinorine may induce short REM episodes while awake and so literally kick the experimenter all of a sudden directly into a random oneiric scene" http://www.shaman-australis.com/~claude/salvia2.html

"Salvia divinorum thus seems to activate neuronal systems which are
triggered when one enters the REM phase of sleep."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Salvia...ce/message/322

If you could show me some convincing studies concluding that salvinorin-a cannot induce anything remotely similar to REM then I'd give you some credit. 
It may not be identical to REM, but there appears to be similarities.

----------


## Happiness is a Warm Gun

> Maybe its impossible for you to reach something similar to an LD with salvia, but I'm not the only one who can. 
> 
> Not much is known about how salvia works other than that its a kappa opioid receptor agonist. Here is a few links discussing the possibility that salvia can induce a REM like state:
> 
> "Although the mechanism of action is not fully understood,
> it is said to result in REM activity while still awake." Lisa Booze, PharmD, CSPI
> http://www.umaryland.edu/bin/g/w/July2003tidbits.pdf
> 
> "Its leaves contain a hallucinogenic compound unlike any other. Its properties are more rightly classified as oneirogenic (dream-inducing), as it induces an involuntary state similar to REM sleep. "  http://tryptamind.com/salvia_divinorum.html
> ...



If you could show me some convincing studies concluding that salvinorin-a can induce anything remotely similar to REM then I'd give you some credit (If we're going down this path, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, not the person debating it). But again, no one's debating that a salvia trip can have similarities to dreaming (specifically, hallucinations). That doesn't mean it causes lucid dreams, or is connected to them in any way.

----------


## lucid4sho

> If you could show me some convincing studies concluding that salvinorin-a can induce anything remotely similar to REM then I'd give you some credit (If we're going down this path, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, not the person debating it). But again, no one's debating that a salvia trip can have similarities to dreaming (specifically, hallucinations). That doesn't mean it causes lucid dreams, or is connected to them in any way.



Whether or not salvia can induce a state measurably comparable to REM I have not claimed to know, but you insist to know for a fact that it can't, but haven't provided any evidence. 

From experience I can say that for me salvia can produce something perceivably near identical to an LD. You claim to know that this is impossible, but again have no evidence. 

You are making unsupported claims, not me. 






> Finally, it's entirely possible to break through without pure salvinorin, or even salvia extract. It's all a matter of bowl size and flame intensity. But it's definitely impossible if you're smoking like you would smoke marijuana.



Here is the icing on the cake!!  ::banana:: 

This proves you have been mistaking non-breakthrough trips for actual breakthroughs. It is common knowledge that you can't breakthrough with regular salvia leaf no matter what torch/bowl you use. This is like claiming you can breakthrough with psychotria leaves! Every enthusiast knows you need a way higher dose that. Geez laweez I've been debating with a child it seems. 

Aside from the countless user reports/literature substantiating this, I have witnessed so many people use salvia at different strengths that I'm familiar with the average dose required to reach different levels. No one has ever reached breakthrough with regular leaf!!!!

I have managed to breakthrough with a really good 20x from iamshaman.com , BUT its only possible if I am on a good dose of harmala (an maoi, stay away from this stuff). Maybe some people are sensitive enough to breakthrough with just a 20x, but its absurd to think its possible with regular leaf!! You just lost all credence with me and anyone following this thread.  ::wink::  Have a good day!

----------


## Happiness is a Warm Gun

That's an interesting way to say 'I can't find any studies connecting salvia to REM'
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=345
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=2869
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=15393
In just 5 minutes of looking I've also found numerous forum posts reporting breaking through into ego death with only leaf. I'm not going to bother linking them all, since you can just google the appropriate terms yourself.

----------


## tommo

Hapiness - Seriously, what the hell are you talking about?
_
But again, no one's debating that a salvia trip can have similarities to dreaming (specifically, hallucinations)_

Everyone is debating that!  ::shock:: 

And your understanding about ego-loss and breakthrough are warped as hell.
First you get ego-loss/death and then breakthrough, which is the dream part everyone is describing.  Or you just skip the ego-death and go straight to breakthrough with high enough doses.

I'm not sure but I think you're saying that it cannot be the same because the physical actions in the brain are different, but that doesn't mean shit.
I mean, WILD'ing and DILD'ing are most certainly two different neurological processes but you achieve exactly the same result.
And who knows how the hell Salvinorin works?  It could be identical to WILD'ing.

And about the real and imaginary thing.  Of course hallucinations are real.  They're a real _experience_; or else they wouldn't happen in the first place.  Just because other people can't see it, feel it, hear it, smell it doesn't mean you didn't.

----------


## lucid4sho

> That's an interesting way to say 'I can't find any studies connecting salvia to REM'
> http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=345
> http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=2869
> http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=15393
> In just 5 minutes of looking I've also found numerous forum posts reporting breaking through into ego death with only leaf. I'm not going to bother linking them all, since you can just google the appropriate terms yourself.



Those are great examples of what one may experience before reaching breakthrough. I've shared and witnessed similar experiences to each of them.

This salvia report sounds like a breakthrough, 
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=58402
i know someone who experienced something very similar but they were mobile and seemingly more lucid. 

*Quote from above report:*
"I felt myself trying to hang on to my world, to my universe of matter and space, but I was being pulled to into this grotesque monstrosity of an existence made up of only consciousnesses of pure energy and space.

After a short struggle the transfer was complete, suddenly and inexplicably. I had a body, surprisingly, but I could tell that it was not real and simply a projection of energy produced from a residual retention of the reality of my previous existence"

Before the moment this person breaks through their description was comparable to the first link you posted. 

dmt breakthroughs:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=24260
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=56682

It is hard to find good salvia breakthrough reports because its more difficult to reach with the typical extracts people are using. Plus dmt has been around longer.


Do you see the difference yet?  ::cheers::

----------


## DrTechnical

Is this what I've been missing since I've been gone. Man is this a long discussion thread.

Using salvia is a wonderful aid to DILDs as a general statement. I've noticed an obvious correlation between salvia use and DILDs. But the immediate pyscho-active effects of the drug should be long gone before expecting it to help with DILDs. There seems to be an after-effect that's helpful.

Yes, it's a brief WILD like experience, though using it in the middle of the night to try to put ones mind in a state to induce WILDs seems useless to me. In fact, it seems to actually reduce recall and lucidity.

----------


## Happiness is a Warm Gun

This stupid discussion had finally ended and you just had to go necro the thread. I can't wait to hear more from the people who can't differentiate between hallucinating on a dissociative and lucid dreaming.

----------


## DrTechnical

Hmmmm ....

As someone who has used salvia hundreds of times and one who has lucids whenever I try, I would say I'm quite qualified to comment on the subject.

No, lucid dreaming and salvia induced visions are not the same thing, true.

Salvia most certainly increases the likelihood of achieving dream lucidity. If I wasn't clear enough before, this is strictly an after effect phenomenon. For example, using salvia in the afternoon for the last day or two makes DILDs more likely tonight. I'll bet you won't find a Laberge driven research paper on that subject, but you can take it as fact.

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## tommo

Yeh, he's just pissed coz' it's another person to prove him wrong....

----------


## MANIN207

> Heh, I had never heard of this before but I have to admit I think I'm going to order some.  I've always been very curious about LSD but too afraid to try it, especially after learning what a bad trip does to your brain physiologically  After reading the wikipedia article about Salvia, it sounds much safer.  
> 
> Although I can't really see how something that gives you wild hallucinations can be completely safe (long term effects unknown maybe?) so I certainly hope it's not too fun and I don't go overboard



Actually Salvia divinorum IS safe, and has been around for a very long time, you may even have some in you flower gardens, All it really is, is a type of sage.  The native Americans used to smoke it in ceremonies, or the healers of the tribe, or something like that. Please do not get me wrong, I am neither condoning, or condemning it.  I HAVE tried it once, and did not like it, but as said before it IS legal, but so is alcohol.

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## MANIN207

Oh, and I forgot to mention, that the only thing it did to me, was make me laugh so hard, and so long, it started to hurt my face! lol.  If you go on youtube, like some one else mentioned, you can see some of the affects.

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## lucid4sho

Reminder: Breakthrough with salvia can be extremely difficult to reach without using pure salvinorin crystals from a freebase pipe.

Ethnogarden sells the crystals, your local head shop probably has a free base pipe. 

Don't think you are going to breakthrough with 20x,50x,100x,etc.. most people typically do not.

Once you've broken through it can be nearly identical to an LD, I've had false awakenings too. 

During my most recent experience, I took an enormous hit of crystal and was suddenly fully lucid on top of a huge cliff overlooking a modern type city, but it was very psychedelic looking, the sky was made of something similar to lava, so I stared at it for a few minutes. Behind me was an enormous pine forest, and the cool breeze kept bringing gusts of intoxicating pine aroma. My salvia breakthroughs are usually much shorter than my actual LDs, so I usually just sit and enjoy the scenery, rather than interact.

----------


## Advantageous Noodle

> This can't be a serious question.  Why the judgment?  Lets see ... you are drugging your brain, pumping it with chemicals to an unnatural state of hallucinations.  Yes, we see things in dreams, but dreams are not dangerous!  If dreams were dangerous, natural selection would have wiped us out a long time ago.
> 
> Promising field of exploration?  Yes, I consider myself an explorer when I walk in circles and speak to imaginary creatures.  This all goes on while the real world around you passes.  We HAVE to sleep and we HAVE to dream, so why not spend the time lucid?  Drugs do not spend time, they waste time.  The further you disconnect from life, the more pathetic and useless you will become.
> 
> I take offense to this because this is a bad idea and we all know how quickly bad ideas spread.  It should be debated because this is not a one sided issue.  It is difficult for me to leave this issue alone and let bygones be bygones when you will not.  If you are going to fuck yourself up, please keep it to yourself and stop persuading others to join you.



I agree wholeheartedly, Funnel. Thank you. 

We now live in a world where you have to get hyped up on stupid amounts of chemicals or else you're not an intellectual and you're not social and you're not fun. It pisses me the fuck off.

Personally I'd like to be able to LD on my own as using a chemical seems almost like cheating. It's just a standard I've set for myself - I've LD'd before without any help, and I'll learn to do it again.

----------


## lucid4sho

> I agree wholeheartedly, Funnel. Thank you. 
> 
> We now live in a world where you have to get hyped up on stupid amounts of chemicals or else you're not an intellectual and you're not social and you're not fun. It pisses me the fuck off.
> 
> Personally I'd like to be able to LD on my own as using a chemical seems almost like cheating. It's just a standard I've set for myself - I've LD'd before without any help, and I'll learn to do it again.



I agree there are plenty of ignorant drug users who insist people are less intellectual/fun for not using chemicals. Though, I would guess this is not the majority. Personally, I admire your standards and I wouldn't discourage you from them. I only post my knowledge to help people with an already unquenchable curiosity. I don't want to persuade anyone.

----------


## Sir Mark

As someone who is experienced in the field of psychology as well as the effects of psycho - effective drugs, allow me to weigh in on this topic.  While a dream and a hallucination are both sensory perceptions of stimuli that don't actually exist, a hallucination is also defined as a delusion, or a morbid error in thinking.  A dream is simply one's unconscious mind "overpowering" our sense of logic which is suppressed during sleep.  While it might seem bizarre and distorted in our reflection of it, it's actually very logical to our individual circumstances and experiences (though we might not necessarily understand why).
     There is a basic principle of psychology that states any behavior which is reinforced will be repeated.  There's a reason more people don't use Salvia.  They have a negative response to it.  The experience is not reinforcing, but rather disturbing and they don't repeat it.  Pot, on the other hand, given any absence of negative consequences, is largely reinforced due to the sedation and social nature of the experience. 
     Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now and go back to doing RC's.  Thanks for reading this.  :smiley:

----------


## Advantageous Noodle

> I agree there are plenty of ignorant drug users who insist people are less intellectual/fun for not using chemicals. Though, I would guess this is not the majority. Personally, I admire your standards and I wouldn't discourage you from them. I only post my knowledge to help people with an already unquenchable curiosity. I don't want to persuade anyone.



Thanks for that. I don't hear that from people very often. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one of my generation that still believes in something.

----------


## Happiness is a Warm Gun

> Hmmmm ....
> 
> As someone who has used salvia hundreds of times and one who has lucids whenever I try, I would say I'm quite qualified to comment on the subject.
> 
> No, lucid dreaming and salvia induced visions are not the same thing, true.
> 
> Salvia most certainly increases the likelihood of achieving dream lucidity. If I wasn't clear enough before, this is strictly an after effect phenomenon. For example, using salvia in the afternoon for the last day or two makes DILDs more likely tonight. I'll bet you won't find a Laberge driven research paper on that subject, but you can take it as fact.



Actually tommo, I agree with everything in this post. In fact, as the person claiming that smoking enough salvia will cause people to immediately enter lucid dreams, it appears to be directly disagreeing with you. To clarify, I was complaining about the fact that you believe any post in the thread, regardless of topic, validates your opinion, rather than worrying about someone proving me wrong. I think you may be projecting

----------


## lucid4sho

> Actually tommo, I agree with everything in this post. In fact, as the person claiming that smoking enough salvia will cause people to immediately enter lucid dreams, it appears to be directly disagreeing with you. To clarify, I was complaining about the fact that you believe any post in the thread, regardless of topic, validates your opinion, rather than worrying about someone proving me wrong. I think you may be projecting



Who cares if you seemingly cannot reach an LD type experience with salvia and others can. No one is rubbing it in your face, so why are you still jealously whining. 

  I prefer natural LDs anyways, the only reason I talk about salvia is because it is partially what got me into practicing LDing in the first place. I hardly ever smoke it anymore, other than a little bit of regular leaf before bed.

----------


## NASCAR

I honestly don't care how long I had a dry spell or how much I wanted to LD. I WOULD NOT do this. Instead of an LD you could get an OD.

Really, STUPIDEST IDEA EVER. They really need to make this crap illegal.

----------


## lucid4sho

> I honestly don't care how long I had a dry spell or how much I wanted to LD. I WOULD NOT do this. Instead of an LD you could get an OD.
> 
> Really, STUPIDEST IDEA EVER. They really need to make this crap illegal.



I agree its a risk. 

Though technically it is extremely non-toxic and hasn't been shown to cause harm at the ranges typically reached by humans. The biggest risk is someone injuring themselves while in a waking trip, a baby sitter helps prevent that, thankfully most people snap out of it within a few minutes.

Also the intensity and scariness of the experience can be emotionally traumatizing for many people, the decision shouldn't be taken lightly. It is a risky and thrilling experience, its comparable to choosing to go sky diving or something similar. I wouldn't be opposed to some type of minor regulation for it, but i hate to see it be made illegal, i like to be able to choose what i can and can't explore.

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## Happiness is a Warm Gun

> Who cares if you seemingly cannot reach an LD type experience with salvia and others can.



Common sense, all medical research, and basic pharmacology agree that smoking enough salvia won't ever place someone into a lucid dream, but will induce dream-like hallucinations and impair their ability to differentiate between the two experiences. 

Ego death eliminates your sense of self, making it impossible to remember that you're hallucinating and in control, which is key to a lucid experience. Your habit of switching between claims of salvia inducing experiences with "LD type" hallucinations and "guaranteed instant LDs," as well as your misuse of terms like ego death says volumes about your credibility and precision. 

If I'm jealous of you, it's only because I've heard ignorance is bliss.

E: I notice you've now described the use of salvia as both "not very risky" and "a risk." You might want to decide on one or the other, since the decision should affect whether you would blindly recommend the substance to others.

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## DrTechnical

There is definately some bad info in this thread, agreed.

It is impossible to OD on Salvia. End of story. If you did, you would be the first. Now I agree w/ lucid4sho completely. The risk here is hurting yourself under the influence. This is easily prevented by lying down, closing your eyes and not moving until it is over.

Additionally, if you use salvia and can't rememeber the experience, you used too much. Back off on the dose. There is no point to not remembering the experience.

www.sagewisdom.org gives many good tips on use, breaking through and safety best practice.

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## lucid4sho

> Common sense, all medical research, and basic pharmacology agree that smoking enough salvia won't ever place someone into a lucid dream, but will induce dream-like hallucinations and impair their ability to differentiate between the two experiences. 
> 
> Ego death eliminates your sense of self, making it impossible to remember that you're hallucinating and in control, which is key to a lucid experience. Your habit of switching between claims of salvia inducing experiences with "LD type" hallucinations and "guaranteed instant LDs," as well as your misuse of terms like ego death says volumes about your credibility and precision. 
> 
> If I'm jealous of you, it's only because I've heard ignorance is bliss.
> 
> E: I notice you've now described the use of salvia as both "not very risky" and "a risk." You might want to decide on one or the other, since the decision should affect whether you would blindly recommend the substance to others.



Clearly there is no convincing you  ::D:  Oh well, proofs in the puddin, anyone who really needs to know the truth will find out for themselves. 

I explain my experience to help those already determined use it properly. Thats the problem with drug education these days, its all about demonizing drugs, rather than explaining how to be a cautious consumer for the people who are going to experiment with them regardless.

I made a scale that describes my personal reaction to salvia, ofcourse everything will vary from p2p, plus there is a huge difference from vendor to vendor on how potent the extracts are. Also its important to know that most people have to use salvia a few times on different days before they start to react to it.

(1) (couple big hits of regular leaf)- Slight visual distortion(rippling, bending, depth change) slight strange feeling in stomach or chest.

(2) (one big hit of standardized 10x)- EYES OPENED: Moderate visual distortions(objects melding, beams going through things, waving, bending, depth change), sweating, pushing and pulling sensations.
EYES CLOSED AND RELAXED: A strange little day dream sometimes happen, its just 2-dimensional though and I usually have only slight awareness, but I prefer the day dream to the distortions. 

3- (couple quick big hits of standardized 20x) - Strong visual and possibly auditory hallucination(i've always closed my eyes at this point, i feel incredibly distorted and i may see; vortexes, entities, hear voices, and start having delusional thoughts. The physical sensations at this point can be very intense and usually scary. This is the stage where you are most likely to act out in. I never attempt to reach this stage, it just has happened by accident, my goal is always either 1,2, or rarely, 5.

4- (couple quick big hits of standardized 35x, or too small of a hit of crystal) What I consider ego death. It is horrible. This is my biggest fear of trying to breakthrough, because its where I end up if I fall short. I hate it so much. When it happens, the first thing I see for a moment is everything being 'torn' apart, in a completely unexplainable way until there is nothingness. Then you feel like you've died and you are never coming back, even though i can't actually think about my body, my family or anything, i still feel a tremendous amount of pain from feeling that i will never see any of it again. I thought I wasn't scared of death before experiencing this my first time, but this changed my mine  :tongue2: 

5- (couple quick big hits of standardized 35x, or a good hit of crystal) Breakthrough - Its possible to physically collapse in other stages, but at this point, you are almost guaranteed to collapse, so be in a chair that leans backwards or you might flip forwards on to your face (its happened to me  ::D: ) 
I experience no real transition. I don't remember exhaling, i just am suddenly in another world and usually very lucid. 

My breakthrough experiences are for the most part relatively mundane, I think its because I beg for craziness so i get the opposite. When I help other people reach breakthrough they usually have the most amazing story of talking to guides and being shown the secrets of life and crap. My experiences
are more like my usual LDs, mostly earthly landscapes and content.

----------


## tommo

> As someone who is experienced in the field of psychology as well as the effects of psycho - effective drugs, allow me to weigh in on this topic.  While a dream and a hallucination are both sensory perceptions of stimuli that don't actually exist, a hallucination is also defined as a delusion, or a morbid error in thinking.  A dream is simply one's unconscious mind "overpowering" our sense of logic which is suppressed during sleep.  While it might seem bizarre and distorted in our reflection of it, it's actually very logical to our individual circumstances and experiences (though we might not necessarily understand why).
>      There is a basic principle of psychology that states any behavior which is reinforced will be repeated.  There's a reason more people don't use Salvia.  They have a negative response to it.  The experience is not reinforcing, but rather disturbing and they don't repeat it.  Pot, on the other hand, given any absence of negative consequences, is largely reinforced due to the sedation and social nature of the experience. 
>      Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now and go back to doing RC's.  Thanks for reading this.



You lost me at "experienced in the field of psychology".
The fact that you think hallucinations and delusions are the same _reinforced_ that decision to disagree with you.
Hallucinations are things you experience that have no physical basis.  But you can still tell that they aren't real.
Delusions are where you believe something is real when it really isn't for example believing in god.  Or for the religious here that would disagree with that, another example would be convincing yourself that you can levitate objects with your mind.





> Personally I'd like to be able to LD on my own as using a chemical seems almost like cheating.



Who says you have to LD using chemicals?
It's your own choice.  We're not forcing you to use drugs ffs.
LD 'on your own' all you want.





> Actually tommo, I agree with everything in this post. In fact, as the person claiming that smoking enough salvia will cause people to immediately enter lucid dreams, it appears to be directly disagreeing with you. To clarify, I was complaining about the fact that you believe any post in the thread, regardless of topic, validates your opinion, rather than worrying about someone proving me wrong. I think you may be projecting



I have no idea what you're talking about here.





> I honestly don't care how long I had a dry spell or how much I wanted to LD. I WOULD NOT do this. Instead of an LD you could get an OD.



No, you couldn't "get an OD",  Not possible.  Never happened





> Really, STUPIDEST IDEA EVER. They really need to make this crap illegal.



Yeh, no ones smoking weed these days, no ones taking ecstasy every weekend at raves where other people are snorting speed and cocaine and later taking heroin.  ::shock:: 
It's people like you that I wish would just shut the fuck up, seriously.  You don't want to do it so you don't want anyone else to do it either.  WHY!?!?!  Can you do me one favour and answer that.





> Common sense, all medical research, and basic pharmacology .... bla bla bla



Please point me to any research done on Salvia.





> E: I notice you've now described the use of salvia as both "not very risky" and "a risk." You might want to decide on one or the other, since the decision should affect whether you would blindly recommend the substance to others.



He said it's not risky in the sense of OD'ing but it can have negative mental side-effects if you aren't prepared.

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## Sir Mark

Please note that if you look in a decent dictionary you will find that hallucinations are indeed a form of delusion.  A dream, however, is not.  I believe my point was that there are both similarities as well as differences between hallucinations and dreams.  As a practicing mental health professional I do have some experience and knowledge and education, so while it might piss you off that there people who strongly disagree with your opinion, not all of them come from a position of ignorance.

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## lucid4sho

> Please note that if you look in a decent dictionary you will find that hallucinations are indeed a form of delusion.  A dream, however, is not.  I believe my point was that there are both similarities as well as differences between hallucinations and dreams.  As a practicing mental health professional I do have some experience and knowledge and education, so while it might piss you off that there people who strongly disagree with your opinion, not all of them come from a position of ignorance.



What is not delusional or hallucinatory about dreams? Though I could say the same thing for waking life. 

Just curious, do you have a degree or are you a self proclaimed therapist?

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## DarthDallas

not too sure why this is such a controversial topic, hallucinating and dreaming are 2 very different and not even related things. This is a fact. In "exploring the world of", Laberge clearly states that in the dreaming world, you are dreaming exclusively because you have no external stimuli, and your mind creates its own world to entetain itself while you sleep. (basically.)  DRUGS ARE MOST DEFINITELY AN EXTERNAL STIMULI. While the experience is somewhat like dreaming, (sort of, i didnt think so) it's not the same thing or even in the same ballpark as dreaming.

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## lucid4sho

> not too sure why this is such a controversial topic, hallucinating and dreaming are 2 very different and not even related things. This is a fact. In "exploring the world of", Laberge clearly states that in the dreaming world, you are dreaming exclusively because you have no external stimuli, and your mind creates its own world to entetain itself while you sleep. (basically.)  DRUGS ARE MOST DEFINITELY AN EXTERNAL STIMULI. While the experience is somewhat like dreaming, (sort of, i didnt think so) it's not the same thing or even in the same ballpark as dreaming.




Hallucination:
"A hallucination, in the broadest sense, is a perception in the absence of a stimulus" wikipedia
"Perception of visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, or gustatory experiences without an external stimulus" american heritage dictionary

You got it backwards.

If drugs were considered an external stimuli then only dreams could be considered hallucinations. 

Maybe hallucinogens should be called illusionogens.

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## tommo

> Please note that if you look in a decent dictionary you will find that hallucinations are indeed a form of delusion.  A dream, however, is not.  I believe my point was that there are both similarities as well as differences between hallucinations and dreams.  As a practicing mental health professional I do have some experience and knowledge and education, so while it might piss you off that there people who strongly disagree with your opinion, not all of them come from a position of ignorance.



By 'decent dictionary' I assume you mean DSM-IV?  ::lol::  (No idea whether that states they are the same btw so don't flame me for a joke)
EDIT:  Even psychology seems to have it right "A delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception. In psychiatry, the definition is necessarily more precise and implies that the belief is pathological (the result of an illness or illness process). As a pathology it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information or certain effects of perception which would more properly be termed an apperception or illusion."

I think you're getting confused highly between the two.
Someone that is hallucinating _could_ believe that these experiences are real and therefore they would be 'delusional'.  But it is not really ever the case when taking 'hallucinogens' with a few exceptions.  So dreaming would actually be more like a delusion than a hallucination.
Also as lucid4sho states, external stimuli does not mean a foreign substance.  Stimuli is tactile sensations or senses.

Without any hate or pointless criticism whatsoever I think you need to check the dictionary a bit more yourself and maybe do a bit more training because you seem to have a very twisted view of this subject and if you are in fact a trained 'mental health professional' or whatever you could actually harm someone using misinformation.  Don't rely on your brain for dictionary definitions, our memory is extremely fallible.





> Hallucination:
> "A hallucination, in the broadest sense, is a perception in the absence of a stimulus" wikipedia
> "Perception of visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, or gustatory experiences without an external stimulus" american heritage dictionary
> 
> You got it backwards.
> 
> If drugs were considered an external stimuli then only dreams could be considered hallucinations. 
> 
> Maybe hallucinogens should be called illusionogens.



I was going to say that.
Barely any 'hallucinogenic' drugs can actually be called hallucinogens because you are actually just perceiving the world differently.  But as I understand it there are very few, such as DMT that completely shut off the outside world, or, stimuli.  I think that is why most mind explorers choose now to call them entheogens.  Not sure what that means.






> Just curious, do you have a degree or are you a self proclaimed therapist?



I'm guessing self-proclaimed or that he is under the delusion he actually has a degree  ::lol::  (Again a JOKE)

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## andrewh817

> A) Why isn't this illegal?



Why isn't sky-diving illegal?  It's far more dangerous.  I have tried salvia a few times, and let me tell you, the comedown was one of the most beautiful things I've ever experienced.

Oh, and don't judge salvia off just the negative stories.  A good portion of these people didn't research the effects whatsoever before trying it and either expected it to be weak just because it was legal or did it in a "party" atmosphere which is completely misusing this plant.  You have to go in expecting the craziest experience of your life and you can't resist the effects when they do come on.

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## andrewh817

> Where in the world is it illegal to walk your dog, or speak to members of the opposite sex? Are these practices outlawed for public safety like the use of the drugs we're discussing, or due to social/cultural conventions?



Please... public safety?  When was the last time someone on salvia killed someone?  The laws have nothing to do with public safety (ask alcohol if you don't believe me) and drugs ARE illegal due to social/cultural conventions.  Way back when Europeans came to the New World Indians were looked down upon as savages.  Europeans, especially Catholics, condemned the herbs and spices Indians used in their rituals as witchcraft and "communicating with demons."  That's where the stereotype of "psychedelics are bad" originated.  Besides, why should even dangerous drugs be outlawed?  The way I see it if someone is stupid enough to try heroin and then get addicted then good riddance they made their choice already.

I agree that salvia definitely does not create a lucid state, but I think if everyone tried salvia responsibly only once it would humble them greatly.  Also the use of salvia is what got me interested in the consciousness of the mind and eventually LDing.

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## Tweek

No Salvia is nothing to be messed with.

Some people love it, some people hate it.  Any one who's crazy enough to try it, stay away from.  haha jk but srsly..  Don't mess with it, it's not worth it.

Salvia should only be used for self-medication, never for recreation.






There is this one thing though.  It's called dimethyltryptamine.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt.shtml

It's this chemical naturally produced in a few different plants/grasses.  It's also naturally produced in your brain.  It's supposidely the chemical responsible for visuals inside dreams.

So this drug can be ingested, smoked, and or even injected.

It's highly illegal and most people will never get a chance to see it in their life.  It takes a chemist to produce, and it's got more profund effects than LSD.

Basically, you dream when you are concious.  People have described it as reality ripping into a new universe.  Or, neotic lightening.

It's just something fun to imagine.  I've been offered the chance to buy it, never had the balls though.  It's a drug described as,"If you can buy it, your ready."  Not everyone can get it, but when you can, that supposidely means your ready for it, that's how hard it is to get.

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## Lëzen

What the fuck ever happened to marijuana? Innocuous, harmless, good ol' marijuana?

...No, but seriously. All I see in this thread is a bunch of whiny bitches sniping back and forth at each other shamelessly (I'm referring to _both_ parties here - the advocates _and_ the opposers). It's really quite appalling.

Frankly, I couldn't give two shits about whether anyone here does any sort of drug...nor whether anyone here is gay, communist, or listens to Emo music, for that matter. The reason for that is that if people want to, for the sake of what they call "fun", pump their bodies full of excess chemicals that the human body really doesn't need, it's their own business. Besides, no one's forcing _us_ to do it so why bother getting upset about it?

HOWEVER, I do feel a need to reprimand the advocates of this drug for doing just that - _advocating_ it. I'm not saying that it's a bad drug - although I'm _certainly_ not saying that it's a good drug (what drug really IS good?). Regardless of how harmless you allege this drug really is, _the fact remains that it is still illegal_ in a great number of places...and for ANYONE to suggest to others that they do something - ANYTHING - illegal is a pretty fucking stupid thing to do. Hell, it's stupid _enough_ proclaiming openly on a public forum that you use the drug, especially when any random law enforcement officer can track down your IP address and bust into your home with a search warrant.

This thread should really be nuked; neither side has won and both have lost. Any additional comments defending or attacking the use of this drug will prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that anarchical, stubborn idiocy has prevailed over the civilized manners that our parents have so forcefully tried to beat into our heads.

But you wanna know how I feel about it, honestly? (Actually, it doesn't _matter_ whether or not you want to know, because I'm telling you anyway.) In my _humble_ opinion, anything that I don't have the strength to do _without_ the help of a drug - of _any_ sort - isn't worth doing at _all_. (Human beings who can actually help _themselves_...a fascinating, although far-fetched, concept!)

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## bsurfer2d3

> I do feel a need to reprimand the advocates of this drug for doing just that - _advocating_ it. I'm not saying that it's a bad drug - although I'm _certainly_ not saying that it's a good drug (what drug really IS good?). Regardless of how harmless you allege this drug really is, _the fact remains that it is still illegal_ in a great number of places...and for ANYONE to suggest to others that they do something - ANYTHING - illegal is a pretty fucking stupid thing to do. Hell, it's stupid _enough_ proclaiming openly on a public forum that you use the drug, especially when any random law enforcement officer can track down your IP address and bust into your home with a search warrant.



Nobody is going to track your IP because you say you do illegal drugs. They have bigger fish to fry than some kids online talking about whatever they do.

Do you know how much time, effort and money its takes to gather IP info and a search warrent? They would if they thought you were pushing some serious dope...but not just because you say you do illegal drugs. Trust me....we don't even register on their radar.

On another note people should be able to do whatever they want to do...illegal or not. I don't agree with some govt. laws, so I don't follow them.

I do plenty of psychedelics and they have given me many profound beneficial insights. I am a much more peaceful and calm person because of them. I realize much of the human drama we voluntary put ourselves through is pointless and avoidable. 

Psychedelics won't benefit everyone, but if it helps you out.....do it. Don't follow blindly because you've been brainwashed to obey authority. Life is much bigger, sacred and important than to have a group of people tell you that you can't do something when they don't even understand it.

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## lucid4sho

> What the fuck ever happened to marijuana? Innocuous, harmless, good ol' marijuana?
> 
> ...No, but seriously. All I see in this thread is a bunch of whiny bitches sniping back and forth at each other shamelessly (I'm referring to _both_ parties here - the advocates _and_ the opposers). It's really quite appalling.
> 
> Frankly, I couldn't give two shits about whether anyone here does any sort of drug...nor whether anyone here is gay, communist, or listens to Emo music, for that matter. The reason for that is that if people want to, for the sake of what they call "fun", pump their bodies full of excess chemicals that the human body really doesn't need, it's their own business. Besides, no one's forcing _us_ to do it so why bother getting upset about it?
> 
> HOWEVER, I do feel a need to reprimand the advocates of this drug for doing just that - _advocating_ it. I'm not saying that it's a bad drug - although I'm _certainly_ not saying that it's a good drug (what drug really IS good?). Regardless of how harmless you allege this drug really is, _the fact remains that it is still illegal_ in a great number of places...and for ANYONE to suggest to others that they do something - ANYTHING - illegal is a pretty fucking stupid thing to do. Hell, it's stupid _enough_ proclaiming openly on a public forum that you use the drug, especially when any random law enforcement officer can track down your IP address and bust into your home with a search warrant.
> 
> This thread should really be nuked; neither side has won and both have lost. Any additional comments defending or attacking the use of this drug will prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that anarchical, stubborn idiocy has prevailed over the civilized manners that our parents have so forcefully tried to beat into our heads.
> ...



Thats the most hypocritical post i've ever read.

What you just said in a nutshell:
Marijuana is great! But don't advocate illegal drugs!
Condoning or condemning salvia is stupid! But I condemn it!

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## Snowy Egypt

> Frankly, I couldn't give two shits about whether anyone here does any sort of drug...nor whether anyone here is gay, communist, or listens to Emo music, for that matter. The reason for that is that if people want to, for the sake of what they call "fun", pump their bodies full of excess chemicals that the human body really doesn't need, it's their own business. Besides, no one's forcing _us_ to do it so why bother getting upset about it?



I think it's more of a frustration rather than being upset. (That's a lie, it's both really.) I mean, what are you really getting out of it? And not that "enlightenment" crap, because that's just what is, crap, because there are other ways to get said state of mind, contrary to popular belief. And why do you do it anyway?? Is there really a point? Is that the only thing that'll make you happy? And what made you start? Because the only thing I can think of is peer pressure or you just stumbled upon it.

Those questions are really my only complaints when drugs are brought up.

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## lucid4sho

> I think it's more of a frustration rather than being upset. (That's a lie, it's both really.) I mean, what are you really getting out of it? And not that "enlightenment" crap, because that's just what is, crap, because there are other ways to get said state of mind, contrary to popular belief. And why do you do it anyway?? Is there really a point? Is that the only thing that'll make you happy? And what made you start? Because the only thing I can think of is peer pressure or you just stumbled upon it.
> 
> Those questions are really my only complaints when drugs are brought up.




Two words. Hate Ers. You have the age old disease called Haterism. 

This disease causes you to have no curiosity and to hate everyone else who is enjoying life.

Those without the disease are free to get loads of pussy and experiment with drugs.

Don't worry though, there is a cure! You just have to tell the players and drug users that you hate how you feel in person and they will put you out of your misery!

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## Snowy Egypt

Well that was mature.

I calm down and decide to talk my mind, and you call me a hater. Wow.

Who are you to say I'm not enjoying life? This might be a huge shock to you, but there are millions of people who are enjoying it without drugs. I'm one of them. I know that's hard for you to understand, you know, what with you calling me a Hater and all just because I haven't done drugs before.

To everyone else who's posted here; I honestly would really like my questions answered. It would help me in the long run understand where you're all coming from, because I really don't get why people do drugs, and would shed some light on somethings, because all I hear in the US is, "My friends were doing it, so I tried it."

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## lucid4sho

You don't need drugs to be happy, plenty of cool people don't do drugs.

But when you hate people that do use drugs, you are incapable of true happiness. The same goes for sex, music, etc.

For example, I don't like country music, I like to have frequent casual sex with random hot girls, and I like to occasionally smoke marijuana.

But I am still good friends with people who love country, are virgins, and never use drugs.

Haters are the opposite. If they hate certain rap music, they hate anyone who listens to it. If they hardly ever get laid or are pussy whipped, they hate anyone who gets lots of action and is not whipped. If they don't like drugs, they hate anyone who uses them.

Its the way of the world, everyone is either a pussy, dick, or asshole.

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## Snowy Egypt

Then I'm not a hater. I can hate some rap all I want, but I'm still great friends with a lot of my friends. The same with my friends who do drugs. I can think of one in particular. I haven't seen him in a while because he got expelled for smoking on school grounds, but I would never hate him for it or let go of our friendship.

Aside from that, I don't think I ever said I hated any of you. I just honestly wonder what would make someone start drugs. I just don't get it. I think the only reason I'll stop liking a person is if they tell me I'm missing out on the experience, which is why I blew up at SKA, or if they say some benefit will come out of it, which is why I posted in here to begin with.

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## lucid4sho

> Then I'm not a hater. I can hate some rap all I want, but I'm still great friends with a lot of my friends. The same with my friends who do drugs. I can think of one in particular. I haven't seen him in a while because he got expelled for smoking on school grounds, but I would never hate him for it or let go of our friendship.
> 
> Aside from that, I don't think I ever said I hated any of you. I just honestly wonder what would make someone start drugs. I just don't get it. I think the only reason I'll stop liking a person is if they tell me I'm missing out on the experience, which is why I blew up at SKA, or if they say some benefit will come out of it, which is why I posted in here to begin with.



Then for future reference when you ask people why they do something, try not to insult them before you get an answer.

First mistake; you said it frustrates and upsets you (borderline hating),

Second; you discredited using drugs for spiritual purposes, because there are other ways. When you are an overworked american you don't have time to meditate all day, so a shortcut may come in handy.

Third; instead of questions you said complaints, which of course makes it sound like you are complaining.


I will give my honest answers.

Why I've tried different drugs: Curiosity, to break the monotony, and to gain insight. As soon as I heard about hallucinogens when I was 12 years old I was fascinated and started relentlessly hunting them down and was tripping on a regular basis by the time I was 13.

What I have gotten out if it: Unbelievable amounts of introspection. The ability to see things from countless perspectives. A better understanding of psychology. Humility and gratefulness. Compassion and empathy. Will power and patience. Spiritual insight. Much more.

Is it the only thing that makes me happy?: No, I don't even use drugs anymore other than the occasional hit of weed. I learned what I needed and now I am focused on my career and lucid dreaming.

I was never peer pressured and I did not stumble onto anything. I intentionally sought out hallucinogens because my mind has a veracious appetite for adventure.

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## tommo

Lucid4sho 



> Thats the most hypocritical post i've ever read.
> 
> What you just said in a nutshell:
> Marijuana is great! But don't advocate illegal drugs!
> Condoning or condemning salvia is stupid! But I condemn it!



HAHA I was thinking the exact same thing as I read his post.  You put it perfectly.

Snowy Egypt you seem to be being pretty reasonable, I never remember names of peoples unless I see their posts very often so I can't remember anything you said beyond this page lol.

But you seem to want to know why people do drugs but then when people say enlightenment you say that's bullshit.
If people used drugs due to peer pressure they wouldn't say they did it for enlightenment they would say they did it for fun.

Think about it.  Enlightenment in its fullest in the fastest way without drugs (Zen I believe) can take up to 30 years.  Longer, it all depends on the person.
If you use certain Hallucinogens it can probably be done within two years.
But you would still have to put all your time and effort into it.

You seem to misunderstand enlightenment.  It is not to be happy.  It is to have an unstuck mind.  You can't explain it in one simple analogy your metaphor.  But that's a major part of it, you don't let your thoughts control you.  You'll laugh at that sentence if you ever get enlightened lol.

I suppose drugs are really the only way also in this western world unless you are lucky enough to find a person who speaks English in whichever foreign place you choose to find a teacher.

On the millions of people are enjoying life without drugs thing.  That is true.  Hence the saying ignorance is bliss.  If you've never seen a cloud you're not going to miss seeing them.
Honestly I think anyone who has never touched a drug is at least a little less (can't think of the word.... intelligent kind of) than everyone who has used them responsibly and not just to get fucked up.
But of course there are people who basically have the same thought pattern as someone on drugs and therefore they don't need to take them lol.  When I say drugs in this post I'm not talking about like speed and things that can't give you any sought of insight into yourself at all.

Even smoking weed a few times in the right setting gives you an ENTIRELY new outlook on life, or view of life.

Basically drugs can help open your mind to what can be possible, they help you think of new ideas that you can't even fathom with the restrictions set on you since you were a child.

Also if you believe that any state you can reach on drugs you can reach without drugs, I'd like to see you reach the peak of an ecstasy trip without ecstasy.  Or meditate till' you hallucinate as intensely as an acid trip.  Then take acid and ecstasy and compare.  It won't even come close.

My dad always used the argument about any state you can reach on drugs you can reach without drugs, then we were talking about DBS (Deep Brain Stimulation) and he said see it's possible.  All I could think was, so you'd rather have someone open your skull, stick a probe in and fire electricity into your temporal lobe than eat a 5mm piece of paper?
That simple fact is proof that it is all propaganda by the government forcing you to believe they are a bad way to achieve states of mind.
Do you have any idea what you have to do to reach states even slightly comparable to these with non drug meditation?  Deprive yourself of sleep, food, sex, light, et al.

Most ancient type meditations is built on Mushrooms and DMT anyway.  Shamans use the Ayahuasca brew which contains DMT.

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## priestofmyownchurch

> Some people love it, some people hate it.



I think that's about all that needs to be said really.

If you study up on it (through the various links so generously provided here) and it seems like something you'd like to try, then go ahead.

If you don't like the idea of using a drug, then don't, but don't hate the people in the first group.


I tried Salvia once, several months ago. I remember getting a lot of the effects I read about (sinking feeling, becoming one with the chair/couch you're sitting on), but I had a bad feeling. I think it was my friends saying something that kind of freaked me out, and I forced it to stop. The "visions" or whatever only lasted mere seconds, but stopping before it could "play out" made me kind of nauseous with a slight headache. Both ended less than an hour later.

Also, for those that decide to give this a go, *DO NOT* touch the salvia with your hands. There are oils on your skin that screw with it, and increase the chances of a "bad trip". I still think my friend handling contributed to my bad experience.

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## tommo

Hm got a study or anything showing that?  Never heard it before.  How are you supposed to load the bowl and whatnot? plastic gloves?

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## alfy984

I have never heard that before as well... everytime i have done it i touched the salvia with my hands and it still works very well...

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## ninja9578

Dreamviews Research Guidelines

Propose a study to the dream guides to approval before you can say that your technique is foolproof please.  :smiley:

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