# Lucid Dreaming > General Lucid Discussion >  >  Am I a rapist?

## jeffreydc

Had a lucid dream last night where I basically "insisted" that a dream character have sex with me.  I was in a dream am talking to a group of beautiful girls and suddenly realized I was dreaming.  I became lucid and decided I wanted sex...I mean hey, these girls were hot!   Realizing I only had a few minutes at best before losing lucidity I grabbed the hottest one and started making my moves.  She wasnt a very "willing"  partner but went along with the program anyhow.  It was very strange to me since I was very lucid and knew I was dreaming.  It was weird that this dream character that I created  had her own identity and went along with it even though I could tell she didnt want to.  When I woke up I felt like a filthy rapist!  To be clear, I have never and would never do this in my waking life but I thought things would be different in the dream world.  I always thought that my dream characters were mindless beings simply there for my amusement.  Perhaps I was wrong?

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## Prince_RIP

I don't see any problem with it whatsoever. Honestly, I almost always get rejected by the girls in my dreams. It sucks. When I do, I always try to have sex with them against their will, or rape them. lol. I don't care, it's my dream and if I wanna have sex i'm not gonna let a figment of my imagination acting in my low self esteem stop me. Honestly sometimes I can't even rape them. Like, when i try to grab them they keep pushing my hands away and i can never even grab onto them. You know your self esteem is low when you can't even successfully rape a girl in your dreams...lol

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## jeffreydc

Lol....I know what you mean Prince....maybe its just my low self esteem I didnt even realize I had expressing itself.  As long as I know its not some deep seeded tendencies I have in the real world I can live with taking advantage of chicks in my dream.  Guess I just hoped they would be a little sluttier in my dreams...lol.  I also have a problem with having an orgasm in my dreams.  You would think it would be easier in a lucid dream compared to a real dream but something or someone in the dream always seems to F it up.

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## Sedurut

I literally raped someone in my second lucid dream, literally, nonconsentual. Feels good man, nothing to feel bad about.

It's not immoral if it's not a real person... unless you subscribe to the belief that videogames and rap music are making kids into violent psychopaths. Besides, it was fun. Wasn't very vivid though... still a LD nub. Can do whatever I want and make people do whatever I want, but feeling still eludes me.

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## Siphorix

Thats what's cool your mind gives personality to all dream chars. The dream chars will usually deny you, since in RL you know girls will always refuse to be raped. Then your subconscious accepts that you want this to happen, and will change the mindset of that dream char.

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## WhiteKnight

Are you a rapist? No. But I wouldn’t call the desire to rape exactly harmless or moral.  I’m revolted that it would be considered ok at all, but also unsurprised.   To a lot of people on here, lucid dreams seem to be used to fulfill whatever desire that comes into their minds. People are cruel, selfish, and vicious things (Note: I am not excluding myself from this)  and so their desires will be less than pretty sometimes.

The difference between this and games or books and such is that it isn’t a story.  Its your mind.  Its’ a desire your imagining.  When you play a game, you don’t really want to kill or maim anyone, you just want to get into some aggressive game play. Beat the other team.  Books and movies have evil characters with evil designs.  They aren’t you. They aren’t in your head completely.   This is the equivalent of you fantasizing about rape during the day, only now with much better tools at your disposal.  

 Is it as bad as actually raping someone? Of course not. But bear in mind that it’s a reflection of you, of your heart.  The fact that you were able to feel guilty about it, and recognized it as wrong is hopeful.  Old parables and stories and even TV have been telling us for generations that what we wish for and desire most tells a lot about us.  There is some truth in that.

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## Siphorix

> Are you a rapist? No. But I wouldn’t call the desire to rape exactly harmless or moral.  I’m revolted that it would be considered ok at all, but also unsurprised.   To a lot of people on here, lucid dreams seem to be used to fulfill whatever desire that comes into their minds. People are cruel, selfish, and vicious things (Note: I am not excluding myself from this)  and so their desires will be less than pretty sometimes.
> 
> The difference between this and games or books and such is that it isn’t a story.  Its your mind.  Its’ a desire your imagining.  When you play a game, you don’t really want to kill or maim anyone, you just want to get into some aggressive game play. Beat the other team.  Books and movies have evil characters with evil designs.  They aren’t you. They aren’t in your head completely.   This is the equivalent of you fantasizing about rape during the day, only now with much better tools at your disposal.  
> 
>  Is it as bad as actually raping someone? Of course not. But bear in mind that it’s a reflection of you, of your heart.  The fact that you were able to feel guilty about it, and recognized it as wrong is hopeful.  Old parables and stories and even TV have been telling us for generations that what we wish for and desire most tells a lot about us.  There is some truth in that.



I second that.

 When you are Lucid, you are conscious. Thus, all actions, ideas, imagination are that of who you are. The only reason you do it in your dream is because [1] You want to. [2] You know it is a dream, and is not actually causing harm to anyone.

When you LD, your true desires surface.

I have had my fair share of what would be deemed "inappropriate". Have I thought about these things in RL? Yes. Would I ever do them in RL? Never. If I had the ability to control RL as I do dreams, would I make these events reality?, probably... The thing is, we draw a line between RL and DL, we have morals, dignity, etc.

....but like WhiteKnight said, it does give you a glimpse of who the "inner you" is.

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## Prince_RIP

I don't think it has anything to do with you really wanting to rape somebody. It's about wanting to have sex. If you really want to have sex in your dream, and the girls rejecting you, why would you just accept what a dream character you made up said? That's stupid. It's about wanting to have sex, not wanting to rape somebody, and since it harms noone you'll do what it takes to get it.

Now, if i'm being completely honest, rough sex and stuff like that is incredibly hot to me, so having to rape girls in my dream wasn't that bad...lol...criticize me all you want, I would never rape someone in real life, but if it's in a dream I think it's hot.

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## Sedurut

Nah. If I went and raped someone in a dream, I'd do it because it's fake. That doesn't mean the idea of causing harm to a thinking, real human being who can feel pain, etc. is any less apalling.

TL;DR - It's a dream, do whatever you feel like doing on a whim.

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## jeffreydc

I agree with you whiteknight and thats what concerned me most.  I have never had the thoughts or desire to rape a woman.  I find it disgusting and sickening.  In my dream I never actually forced myself on the her but I could tell that I was fulfilling my own desires and she was an unwilling participant and that somehow she knew she had to comply. I never got physical or abusive with her in any way but just felt bad about it.  It was like being with a girl that just laid there wishing she were somewhere else...lol   I just dont wont to get into the habit of constantly wanting to have sex in my lucid dreams with the first attractive person I meet.  There are so many other things I would rather do but somehow sex seems to be at the top of the list when I finally become lucid.  That and flying!  I guess a flying fuck would be nice right?  But seriously, I would like to be able to control my dreams enough to where sex would be at the bottom of my list or at least find a way where hot women were begging ME for it!

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## Siphorix

That's when you have to say to yourself, it was all a dream, whats done is done, but damn did it feel good!

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## WhiteKnight

> I don't think it has anything to do with you really wanting to rape somebody. It's about wanting to have sex. If you really want to have sex in your dream, and the girls rejecting you, why would you just accept what a dream character you made up said? That's stupid. It's about wanting to have sex, not wanting to rape somebody, and since it harms noone you'll do what it takes to get it.
> 
> Now, if i'm being completely honest, rough sex and stuff like that is incredibly hot to me, so having to rape girls in my dream wasn't that bad...lol...criticize me all you want, I would never rape someone in real life, but if it's in a dream I think it's hot.




If I came across you playing 'rape' with a set of dolls it would be disturbing and wrong.  Just because you have better Barbie dolls and lack the ability to display them for the public doesn't make it an improvement.

This line of thinking strikes me as obeying a law about right and wrong, not because you believe and understand that a thing is right or wrong, but because socially or culturally pressured to follow it.  Like a child doesn't clean his room because she understands that it is healthy, good and responsible for them to, but only because their parents will spank them if they don't.

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## Prince_RIP

> If I came across you playing 'rape' with a set of dolls it would be disturbing and wrong.  Just because you have better Barbie dolls and lack the ability to display them for the public doesn't make it an improvement.
> 
> This line of thinking strikes me as obeying a law about right and wrong, not because you believe and understand that a thing is right or wrong, but because socially or culturally pressured to follow it.  Like a child doesn't clean his room because she understands that it is healthy, good and responsible for them to, but only because their parents will spank them if they don't.



Umm where did you get the only reason I wouldn't rape someone in real life was because I would get in trouble? I would never rape someone in real life because I agree that it's wrong to harm other people, letalone in such a severe manner as rape. If i'm in a dream, and I know the person i'm raping is just a character that my subconscious has created, I know that i'm not harming anyone. That is my motivation for not raping someone, not harming them, and if i'm not harming anyone then my motivation for not raping someone is out the window, and I no longer give a fuck. As I said, rough sex turns me on, so raping a girl in my dream is hot to me...once again, the reason I do it and enjoy it is because I know i'm not harming anyone.

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## Sedurut

Wait, I think what he meant was similar to what I said: it's not rape if you're not raping someone, nor is it wrong.

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## WhiteKnight

> I agree with you whiteknight and thats what concerned me most.  I have never had the thoughts or desire to rape a woman.  I find it disgusting and sickening.  In my dream I never actually forced myself on the her but I could tell that I was fulfilling my own desires and she was an unwilling participant and that somehow she knew she had to comply. I never got physical or abusive with her in any way but just felt bad about it.  It was like being with a girl that just laid there wishing she were somewhere else...lol   I just dont wont to get into the habit of constantly wanting to have sex in my lucid dreams with the first attractive person I meet.  There are so many other things I would rather do but somehow sex seems to be at the top of the list when I finally become lucid.  That and flying!  I guess a flying fuck would be nice right?  But seriously, I would like to be able to control my dreams enough to where sex would be at the bottom of my list or at least find a way where hot women were begging ME for it!



I don't know if I can help you with that. Other than make a list of what you want to do and remember item number one for the next time you have a lucid dream.  I'm not a strong lucid dreamer so I'm useless here.   But seriously, its bad but don't freak out about it.  Everyone has some corruption in them,  you didn't really rape anyone.  It was a desire, that's all.  A bad desire, but not an act.

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## WhiteKnight

> Umm where did you get the only reason I wouldn't rape someone in real life was because I would get in trouble? I would never rape someone in real life because I agree that it's wrong to harm other people, letalone in such a severe manner as rape. If i'm in a dream, and I know the person i'm raping is just a character that my subconscious has created, I know that i'm not harming anyone. That is my motivation for not raping someone, not harming them, and if i'm not harming anyone then my motivation for not raping someone is out the window, and I no longer give a fuck. As I said, rough sex turns me on, so raping a girl in my dream is hot to me...once again, the reason I do it and enjoy it is because I know i'm not harming anyone.



I said it _strikes_ me as such. Not that I thought it as such. I'm sorry I should have clarified. However you seem to believe that because it doesn't harm anyone real, that makes it ok. But it doesn't.

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## Prince_RIP

> I said it _strikes_ me as such. Not that I thought it as such. I'm sorry I should have clarified. However you seem to believe that because it doesn't harm anyone real, that makes it ok. But it doesn't.



I don't _seem_ to think, I _do_ think. It is YOUR opinion that doing something in a dream can be immoral, and that's a position that I truly can't understand.

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## jeffreydc

Moral is knowing the difference between right and wrong.  It is without a doubt MORALLY WRONG to rape a woman.  So rape is MORALLY wrong REGARDLESS if you do it in your head or for real.  It is an IMMORAL THOUGHT.  The difference is one of the two will land you in prison for about 20 years!

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## WhiteKnight

> I don't _seem_ to think, I _do_ think. It is YOUR opinion that doing something in a dream can be immoral, and that's a position that I truly can't understand.



Every night, certain children are given the best playground in the world.  It is a playground all to themselves, one to each individual.  They don't have to share it with another living soul. In this playground they are given the ability to make anything and anyone they want.  One child makes his own toys and is horrible to them.  "They are mine!" he says, "I can do whatever I want to them!"  And he is right. That is his right to treat them anyway he wants. His right as creator.  But that does not make him any less horrible.  The act is not what makes him horrible, for there are no real consequences. It is the CHOICE, that makes him horrible.

Everyday we are given choices, major and minor.  We are all guilty at one time or another of taking them too lightly. All of us. Sometimes choices are arbitrary. Sometimes they affect a great number of people, sometimes just ourselves.  But care should always be employed when making a choice. Because slowly, bit by bit, your choices make you.

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## Daydreamer14

Thought this could do with the opinion of a *girl*.

Okay... There is something extremely immoral and disgusting about this... I'm sorry, that's just how I feel as a female, who has been previously raped...

_Rape.is.rape._
If you fantasized during the day about rape, would that make you a freak? Yes.
If you have a Lucid dream about raping someone, does that make you a freak? Of course it does.
Let's define Lucid Dream.




> _ A lucid dream is a dream in which the sleeper is aware that she or he is dreaming. When the dreamer is lucid, she or he can actively participate in and often manipulate the imaginary experiences in the dream environment. ...
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream_



You made the decisions consciously... Just like if you were to fantasize about it. It may not be harming anyone parse, but you have got to realize that you're the one making those decissions in your dreams, and that is really saying something about your moral.

I find it amazing that anyone would go so far as to rape someone for sex, whether it is in their dreams or real life... I find it even more fascinating that people are actually debating whether it is moral or immoral... I think the answer is clear.
Like WhiteKnight said- it's your choices that make you...
Choices are choices, whether or not they are in your dreams.

Has it ever occurred to you that there may be better things to do in dreams than _sex_?

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## Trevorm7

No.

Your intentions were merely to have sex. DC resisted but it doesn't matter it's just your imagination, you did nothing wrong. You can even say that technically you raped yourself. If you don't want the DC to resist then it's just a matter of getting better at dream control.

It's your own mind, do whatever you want with it. Nothing you think can be moral or immoral. It is your mind, the only thing other people should be concerned about are your actions. People that try to dictate what you are allowed and not allowed to think or imagine are a much bigger problem to society than people that merely have "dirty thoughts".

Besides, there are couples that role play rape. Is what they do immoral? Of course not, they both consent to it and nobody is being violated.

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## Ray23

He's right. Its depends wether the DC resisted BECAUSE you wanted to rape her. Going into a dream with your first thought being a rape is sick. But if your interest was to have sex and simply didnt have enough control to make her WANT to, I guess its not that bad. The line is very thin between good and wrong. Its twisted yes, but heh. Its your dream. Just dont get addicted to rape and try to not repeat it. Youre no monster  :smiley:

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## Bowie

I see absolutely no reason for obeying social or ethical standards in your dreams. After all, these standards exist to prevent people from doing harm to each other, and to themselves. In dreams, there is nobody but yourself, and there is no evidence whatsoever that the behaviour we are discussing here damages people in real life. 

I really object to the people here defining ones morality by his decisions in his dream life, and to say that choices in your dreams are no different than choices in waking life. How can you say such a thing? Waking life is not the same as dreams, and the choices you make are not the same. Not even close. Who are you to tell me I'm a horrible person if I act on fantasies or urges that would not be acceptable in waking life in my dreams? 





> When you play a game, *you don’t really want to kill or maim anyone*, you just want to get into some aggressive game play. Beat the other team.



Oh come on, of course you do. Say I'm playing a shooter, of course I want to kill my enemies. In some games, I want to beat them up and brutally end their lives. If it's a well constructed game, it causes me to have an actual desire to kill these enemies, and I am offered a choice. So it is immoral if I choose to be the bad guy in a game and kill the characters? After all, it is the CHOICE that makes me a horrible person, right?





> Old parables and stories and even TV have been telling us for generations that what we wish for and desire most tells a lot about us. There is some truth in that.



This is where I fundamentally disagree. You seem to suggest that to *have* desires that are morally wrong, makes *you* wrong. Everyone has desires, and some of us have desires that are considered immoral or unethical. We do not decide over which desires we have. Fortunately, we do have the ability to ignore our desires and not act on them, because our consience and sense of morality is stronger than these desires. And I absolutely do not believe that acting on desires in dreams will in any way affect this ability.

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## Philosopher8659

Lucid dreams are a place to practice behavior. 

Now I ask you, what did it mean "in body, in mind, and in soul"?

Or let me put it more simply. If your thoughts determine your behavior, and your thoughts are socio-pathic, can your behavior always be not socio-pathic?

And, why do we need a place to practice behavior? Are we born wise and sane, or must we learn to become it?

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## Bowie

> Lucid dreams are a place to practice behavior. 
> 
> Now I ask you, what did it mean "in body, in mind, and in soul"?
> 
> Or let me put it more simply. If your thoughts determine your behavior, and your thoughts are socio-pathic, can your behavior always be not socio-pathic?
> 
> And, why do we need a place to practice behavior? Are we born wise and sane, or must we learn to become it?



Is there a statement somewhere in this?

You can't say that your thoughts determine your behaviour. This is a much more complex process with many factors, so to put it like that is oversimplifying the matter significantly.

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## Philosopher8659

> Is there a statement somewhere in this?
> 
> You can't say that your thoughts determine your behaviour. This is a much more complex process with many factors, so to put it like that is oversimplifying the matter significantly.



Not for those who cannot follow a thought.

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## Bowie

Fair enough, forgive me for my inferior intellect, but if you want to make a statement, which you seem to want, why phrase it as a question?

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## Philosopher8659

When I go out to eat, I do not demand that the cook be responsible for my ability to digest the food.

However, it is not the first time you have heard it said, "If a man commit adultery in his mind, . . . " it is a simple psychological fact. Perception determines conception, conception determines will.

Secondly, can you say the dream image is not a real person, but you are having sex with it? Is sex defined in terms of non-realities? hello?

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## Bowie

There is no use for the cook to let me fillet my own fish, with the chance of butchering it in the process. It would make neither me nor the cook happier.

I personally prefer to rely on scientific research rather than biblical verses to provide me information on psychological facts. I simply do not believe that you can ignore or discard factors like emotion, psychological disorder, social control, and so forth in this matter, and conclude that perception will eventually lead to will.

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## Philosopher8659

So, the fact that we learn by experience is non-scientific myth. Or what do you think perception determines conception, conception determines will means? Or in a metaphor, the father, the son, and the holy spirit are one? 

Really scientific you are when you cannot even manage the language you profess to think in. 

Yes, you are intelligent. It was the prophets who were idiots--the very same prophets who once wrote that you could learn virtue through lucid dreaming as a matter of fact. You can call us  both idiots then.

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## Trevorm7

> Lucid dreams are a place to practice behavior.



Lucid dreams are whatever the dreamer wants them to be.





> Now I ask you, what did it mean "in body, in mind, and in soul"?



I don't know.





> Or let me put it more simply. If your thoughts determine your behavior, and your thoughts are socio-pathic, can your behavior always be not socio-pathic?



Thoughts don't determine behavior, decisions do.





> And, why do we need a place to practice behavior?



We don't.





> Are we born wise and sane, or must we learn to become it?



People are naturally sane. I think the book "Dianetics: The Evolution of a Science" and the ones after it would be relevant to your interests.

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## WhiteKnight

> Oh come on, of course you do. Say I'm playing a shooter, of course I want to kill my enemies. In some games, I want to beat them up and brutally end their lives. If it's a well constructed game, it causes me to have an actual desire to kill these enemies, and I am offered a choice. So it is immoral if I choose to be the bad guy in a game and kill the characters? After all, it is the CHOICE that makes me a horrible person, right?



So if you were put in a real-life situation the same as the game you would want the same thing? A story is a story. Even in RPGs where you play a bad guy is something completely different. If you say to yourself, "I will play a bad guy because it makes for an interesting story" yeah, ok, fine.  But to play a game as the bad guy simply because you want to do bad things, yeah that is a bit wrong. 

You are incorrect when you say we can't decide our desires.  Can we stop all the bad ones coming into our mind? No, we can't. People are broken like that.  But we can shoo them away, we can not feed them by dwelling on them.  

Look this all comes down to if you believe that evil is simply and only an act. I do not.  A two year old who hits a child doesn't have a sense of right and wrong, or even empathy. A  machine that mangles the arm of a factory worker cannot have a sense of right and wrong and never will. Do we call either of them evil or wrong? Of course not, because they don't understand the concept. They don't have a choice.  When someone does something wrong it is not just the act that is wrong, it is wrong because they knew what right and wrong was, and chose wrong. 

There seems to be a belief that your imagination should be some sort of speakeasy as far as morality.  That it doesn't apply because its not real.  It is true that its no where as near bad as actually doing bad things, but are you to remain a good person only when there are others about you? Only when you don't have omnipotent powers and are a part of the general public?  Imagination IS part of the person, and it can affect them. Sometimes in large ways sometimes in small.  You can see that with any child who wanders out in the dark and becomes frightened at all the things he conjures in his head, or the person who works themselves into a rage  at slights that may or may not have actually been there.

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## Philosopher8659

In psychology--emotion is a given. One learns how to apply a form over emotion, rationality, forms that we abstract from the environment and encode into a language system. 

This is the distinction that Plato made, doing as we please, and doing as we will. Thus, virtue can be learned--as logic is a form but psychologic is the application of logic shaping emotion into rational behavior. In order to effect this change, emotion is pitted against emotion in the form of mythology. Secondary learning is the replacement of mythology with reality.

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## Bowie

> So, the fact that we learn by experience is non-scientific myth.



No. But not *everything* we experience, for example in dreams, will lead to us wanting to do the same in real life. 





> Or what do you think perception determines conception, conception determines will means? Or in a metaphor, the father, the son, and the holy spirit are one?



What I think you mean by this is that the perception, or (sensory) experience, of events and sensations will determine what people think about and what ideas they have, and these thoughts and ideas will determine what actions people will perform. I personally do not think you can approach all behaviour through a simplified model like this. I don't really see where you are going with the christian trinity metaphor.





> Really scientific you are when you cannot even manage the language you profess to think in.



What language exactly do I profess myself to think in? Please tell me, I'd like to know.





> Yes, you are intelligent. It was the prophets who were idiots--the very same prophets who once wrote that you could learn virtue through lucid dreaming as a matter of fact. You can call us  both idiots then.



Thank you, I am flattered. I do not call you an idiot, as a matter of fact I do not even think of you as an idiot. I just disagree with you. And I don't believe in prophets either. Even if I did, why would I want to call these prophets you speak of idiots, if I disagree with one thing they said?

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## Rathez

> Had a lucid dream last night where I basically "insisted" that a dream character have sex with me.  I was in a dream am talking to a group of beautiful girls and suddenly realized I was dreaming.  I became lucid and decided I wanted sex...I mean hey, these girls were hot!   Realizing I only had a few minutes at best before losing lucidity I grabbed the hottest one and started making my moves.  She wasnt a very "willing"  partner but went along with the program anyhow.  It was very strange to me since I was very lucid and knew I was dreaming.  It was weird that this dream character that I created  had her own identity and went along with it even though I could tell she didnt want to.  When I woke up I felt like a filthy rapist!  To be clear, I have never and would never do this in my waking life but I thought things would be different in the dream world.  I always thought that my dream characters were mindless beings simply there for my amusement.  Perhaps I was wrong?



Do not worry, what happens is a projection of your subconscious.  Every action, scenario, or whatever, is based off your expectations and feelings.

To the guys getting constantly rejected, just have a little confidence.  Girls in my dreams are more than happy to go have some private time.

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## Bowie

> So if you were put in a real-life situation the same as the game you would want the same thing? A story is a story. Even in RPGs where you play a bad guy is something completely different. If you say to yourself, "I will play a bad guy because it makes for an interesting story" yeah, ok, fine.  But to play a game as the bad guy simply because you want to do bad things, yeah that is a bit wrong.



No, I would not do the same thing, that is my whole point. I have the ability to make a distinction between real life and imagination. And I disagree with your last point, I do not think it is wrong to play a bad guy to do bad things. In fact, I believe it can be an outlet for certain people.





> You are incorrect when you say we can't decide our desires.  Can we stop all the bad ones coming into our mind? No, we can't. People are broken like that.  But we can shoo them away, we can not feed them by dwelling on them.



This is similar to what I was saying. I think that we can not control which desires we have, but we have the ability to ignore them and not let them lead to actions.





> Look this all comes down to if you believe that evil is simply and only an act. I do not.  A two year old who hits a child doesn't have a sense of right and wrong, or even empathy. A  machine that mangles the arm of a factory worker cannot have a sense of right and wrong and never will. Do we call either of them evil or wrong? Of course not, because they don't understand the concept. They don't have a choice.  When someone does something wrong it is not just the act that is wrong, it is wrong because they knew what right and wrong was, and chose wrong. 
> 
> There seems to be a belief that your imagination should be some sort of speakeasy as far as morality.  That it doesn't apply because its not real.  It is true that its no where as near bad as actually doing bad things, but are you to remain a good person only when there are others about you? Only when you don't have omnipotent powers and are a part of the general public?  Imagination IS part of the person, and it can affect them. Sometimes in large ways sometimes in small.  You can see that with any child who wanders out in the dark and becomes frightened at all the things he conjures in his head, or the person who works themselves into a rage  at slights that may or may not have actually been there.



As long as a person is able to make a clear distinction between right and wrong, and imagination/dream and reality, I truly see no harm in imagining or dreaming about immoral or unethical acts. If a person is not able to fully distinguish reality from fantasy or dreaming, and starts to act on his fantasies, which he might have experienced in dreams, in real life, I'd say it is dangerous for a person like this to deliberately dream about these acts. But for the majority of the population who are able to make these distinctions, I think it is perfectly safe.

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## Rathez

> So, the fact that we learn by experience is non-scientific myth. Or what do you think perception determines conception, conception determines will means? Or in a metaphor, the father, the son, and the holy spirit are one? 
> 
> Really scientific you are when you cannot even manage the language you profess to think in. 
> 
> Yes, you are intelligent. It was the prophets who were idiots--the very same prophets who once wrote that you could learn virtue through lucid dreaming as a matter of fact. You can call us  both idiots then.



Theres _some_ insight in these posts, but the way they're presented shows that there is a lack of communication skill.  Drop the act; sounding like yoda doesn't make you smarter.





> Really scientific you are



There's really nothing to come of this.  He was in a dream which is projected by his subconscious.  Its not often you walk up to a girl, grab her hand, and have sex with her and she's all down for it.  This is where he began to worry, and began to doubt that the girl would really want to do this.  And as any lucid dreamer would know, this will be reflected in the dream.

So the emotion he felt was being portrayed by the dream character.  I bet if he was more comfortable with dream sex the girl would've been more than willing.

----------


## Philosopher8659

Well, I am too stupid to comprehend "concious of the subconsious" (projected by his subconscious) thingy. 

And I apologize for my concise statements, I am rather thin.

I just happen to see the same information many times if it be said with a lot of wind or not, in a metaphor or not, for example

perhaps sometime in the future I will write to please your arrogance

and

who in the fuck do you think you are to tell me how to express myself.

both have the same conceptual content,

----------


## WhiteKnight

> This is similar to what I was saying. I think that we can not control which desires we have, but we have the ability to ignore them and not let them lead to actions.
> 
> 
> 
> As long as a person is able to make a clear distinction between right and wrong, and imagination/dream and reality, I truly see no harm in imagining or dreaming about immoral or unethical acts. If a person is not able to fully distinguish reality from fantasy or dreaming, and starts to act on his fantasies, which he might have experienced in dreams, in real life, I'd say it is dangerous for a person like this to deliberately dream about these acts. But for the majority of the population who are able to make these distinctions, I think it is perfectly safe.



Yes but I don't just stop at not acting on my desires, I believe that a conscious effort should be made not to have them (we are going to fail, but it is the effort that is important) and we should defiantly not feed them, meaning, continue to dwell on them. 

Basically you and I are hitting up against on central question and that is "Is our imagination excluded from morals and ethics?"  We have two different beliefs on that and will just be dancing around it until two days from forever.  One of us will have to change our view of this one central question before any more progress can be made.  To put it simply, we've both debated. We've given our statements. Our final answers are different and we can go no further than that. We're played out. (at least this is how I see it)

However, we *can* agree that what he did is not as bad as doing the real thing.  And that if it does make him uncomfortable, or he comes to believe that it is immoral, he can change it because he has a choice and it is his dream. Right?

Whether either one of our sides (or maybe neither) are true will have to be up to him.

----------


## Philosopher8659

> Whether either one of our sides (or maybe neither) are true will have to be up to him.



Truth is independent of man. Since all one can do in any language system is establish and maintain a convention of names, the rest, the syntax and all is determined by reality, the statement is self-evident.

OR, in my yoda fashion; Predication is the inverse function of abstraction.

It is one of the most basic realizations on what truth is and how to maintain it.

In a metaphor, we say what we see, or in the words of a wise man,

We testify to what we have seen, and speak of what we have known. (or something like that)

----------


## Rathez

> perhaps sometime in the future I will write to please your arrogance
> 
> and
> 
> who in the fuck do you think you are to tell me how to express myself.



Are you that sensitive? Present yourself how you want.

Honestly I think you have some quite insightful things to say about the topic, but your 'style' is harshly communicated.

----------


## Bowie

> However, we *can* agree that what he did is not as bad as doing the real thing.  And that if it does make him uncomfortable, or he comes to believe that it is immoral, he can change it because he has a choice and it is his dream. Right?



We certainly can. If he feels uncomfortable or guilty with what he did, he should not do it again. I believe there is no reason for him to feel guilty, but that is something else entirely.

----------


## Philosopher8659

> Are you that sensitive? Present yourself how you want.
> 
> Honestly I think you have some quite insightful things to say about the topic, but your 'style' is harshly communicated.



I have machined close to 600 engine blocks today, I have a lot of times to be harshly concise.

----------


## Puffin

Dream characters are basically your mind's projections. They're not real. You're basically having sex with yourself (which doesn't sound that pleasant, but hey), so I wouldn't worry about it. Lots of people do it in dreams.

----------


## Baron Samedi

I knew a thread would come up like this eventually.

Let me tell you... I have killed many people in dreams... beat the crap out of them.... even killed myself. I respawned after being in a White Void. 

I have also shared dreams with other people.  There are many confirmed cases of this from others' dream journals, and many accounts of this in written history.  

*So, can other people in your dreams be real?*

Yes.

It could be a DC, a manifestation of your own imagination, or it could be another dreamer.

Firstly, let me tell you the way to tell the difference:

A DC will disappear if you ignore them.  A real person will still be there. Also DC's often talk gibberish, or act like idiots, because your mind is not powerful enough to have a meaningful conversation with itself. 

****

So, if you beat the crap out of another dreamer in a dream, they will have a dream of being beat up.

If you kill another dreamer, they will get killed in their dream, but not in waking life.

If you rape another dreamer they will have a dream of being raped.

***

If you rape a DC, it's like raping yourself.

***

That being said, we are talking about _lucid_ dreams here. Sometimes when people suffer trauma, they will have non-lucid dreams of doing what was done to them, as a way of their subconscious trying to understand the person who scarred their psyche.  This is a dream that is created by your own mind. You should not feel guilty about doing something weird in a non-lucid dream. I beat the crap out of people all the time in non-lucid dreams as a way to deal with anger, and the violence I suffered as a kid.
***

So, should you rape people in dreams?

There are no laws in dreams. It's the Wild Wild West.  

But, karma's a bitch. 

You wouldn't want a dream about Marv scraping your face off.... would you?

----------


## Rathez

> I have machined close to 600 engine blocks today, I have a lot of times to be harshly concise.



Concise doesn't mean more effective though.  You can be more concise by throwing in tons of jargin and terms , but then the message won't be properly decoded.

Anyways, back on topic?  The OP most likely just had a confliction between his morals and the 'do anything you want' nature of a dream.  I drive my car through crowds of people in video games and laugh as they roll over the windshield.  You don't see me doing this in real life.  But then again a video game is no where as realistic as a lucid dream, so this is probably why he had such a concern.

Considering its not real and he still felt like he had a moral obligation to treat the DC with respect shows a lot about his character.  He's definitely no rapist.

----------


## Rathez

> *So, can other people in your dreams be real?*
> 
> Yes.



Not trying to be the 'you cant prove it' nazi here, but I would like to hear experiences that make you believe this.

Shared dreaming is something I'm VERY interested in.  I've read your topic on it but like any ambitious dreamer, I'm fiending for more information!

----------


## BrandonTyberius

This incident sounds pretty harmless to me. It sounds like it was due to lack of dream control and fear of loosing lucidity. If you get better at dream control you will probably summon women to you who want to have sex. I wouldnt make a habit out of raping dream characters though because that might cultivate erotic feelings involving rape. In other words you might get into rape.

----------


## Philosopher8659

> This incident sounds pretty harmless to me. It sounds like it was due to lack of dream control and fear of loosing lucidity. If you get better at dream control you will probably summon women to you who want to have sex. I wouldnt make a habit out of raping dream characters though because that might cultivate erotic feelings involving rape. In other words you might get into rape.



You are missing the point, the harm is not to what you imagine, but the effects upon your own mind, the enforcement or avoidance of irrational thought and behavior. At some time in your life you have to recognize that your eventual sanity has a lot to do with your own efforts. You partially express the idea and partially deny it. So you are in the middle. You choose which way you will travel by choosing your every action in life, or in a dream. When you desire to express your will, eventually you have to start looking for a standard by which to effect.

That standard is independent of what you desire, and what appears to be.

----------


## OldNutter

Ok like wakingnomde said, people kill DC's all the time. Does that make you a murderer? Does that make the people you tell disgusted of you? No..... So why is raping someone in a lucid dream (key word there being dream) any different? It's all in their head. It's not like it's gonna manifest itself to the waking world. If anything I think LDing would help
prevent real world crimes from happing (I'm not implying that the thread creator will rape someone). Is it morally wrong? Hell no! If anything, it's right. It relieves the tension of stress and urges to do things like that in the real world, with real people.


Ps: I'm iPod touch, I'll fix any errors and missing names when get an actual keyboard in front of me, not this touch screen bull crap.

----------


## Philosopher8659

Read the Knights posts carefully, your question was answered.

----------


## bored2tears

If you raped someone in real life, you are a rapist.

If you raped someone in a dream (whether it be lucid or not), then you are not a rapist.

It's as simple as that.

----------


## Ade

I am sorry WhiteKnight, I have read this thread and I find your thoughts quite disturbing.

Bear with me please, I would like my opinion also to be heard.

First of all, I believe you are traditionally talking about instincts, it might be (and I believe it to be) repressed, suppressed or disowned qualitiy of the conscious self AND WE ALL HAVE IT!
We are all brutal rapists and many more, other horrible things, but the amazing fact is that *it isn't nor bad nor good, it's just is the way it is*, and people who go through their lifes denying it,  find it to be some kind of curse, something that must be destroyed are very, very highly deluded.
And I can imagine many events during history when the suppression of these human needs and instincts were catastrophic.

Second of all,  I think that LD and dreaming in general is a very natural, healthy way of releasing it, and you will have dreams, once in a while, where you do the most immoral things and it is the way it should be and is.

Finally, there is so much going on in the unconscious mind. It is a very ancient, very deep, complex construction, how can we ever claim to understand it?Do you truly think that switching on the logic center can really change how it works?

----------


## Blacklight

Don't worry. As long as you don't try to have some sexy time by force while you're NOT asleep, there's no problem. Unless you like guilt.
I, for one, don't bother myself with the details like what "they" want. In my dreams I'm God. They are a part of me and have no other purpose but to obey me and do my bidding. If they choose they don't want to, well, that's their problem, not mine.
EDIT: Oh, and, to get Nomad at ease, when I do go for it they come to me. Even if I may not believe that they're "real" I call them via thinking of it or make the "get over here" gesture in a way that there's no way they can see it. And they do it. Guess you could say I'm real careful about hurting real people.

----------


## Prince_RIP

It's like. We all have bad thoughts. You're saying you've never been mad at someone and had a passing thought about how great it would feel to do something bad to them? It isn't our thoughts(or what we do in our dreams)that make us who we are, it's what we decide to do(in real life) with those thoughts that make us who we are.

----------


## OldNutter

> It isn't our thoughts(or what we do in our dreams)that make us who we are, it's what we decide to do(in real life) with those thoughts that make us who we are.



I thinks that's the best answer I've read so far.

----------


## WhiteKnight

> First of all, I believe you are traditionally talking about instincts, it might be (and I believe it to be) repressed, suppressed or disowned qualitiy of the conscious self AND WE ALL HAVE IT!
> We are all brutal rapists and many more, other horrible things, but the amazing fact is that *it isn't nor bad nor good, it's just is the way it is*, and people who go through their lifes denying it,  find it to be some kind of curse, something that must be destroyed are very, very highly deluded.
> And I can imagine many events during history when the suppression of these human needs and instincts were catastrophic.



Just because something comes naturally to us, doesn't make it good.  From what I understand, you see no thoughts or actions that a person has or does as either good or evil, but just as a result of nature. Meaning that you believe that there is no good or evil.  Then yeah, your going to find the concept of stopping these urges and thoughts horrible. This whole thing means nothing if there is no good or evil. 






> Second of all,  I think that LD and dreaming in general is a very natural, healthy way of releasing it, and you will have dreams, once in a while, where you do the most immoral things and it is the way it should be and is.



Ok, I can already tell that I've misunderstood you in some way because you seem to have a sense of of right and wrong, because you use the word immoral.   Let me answer with this.  I've heard all my life that if your really angry, you should take it out on an inanimate object, like a pillow.  Or you should scream and let it out.  That it helps and is a healthy vent for anger.  Guess what I've found?  People start to like it, they start to lose their temper more and more. Why? Because they have found a very good excuse for releasing it instead of controlling it.  Thoughts and feelings are not stopped or corrected by constantly feeding into them.  They are stopped by calming them down and either A) ignoring them till they leave,  or B) willing them to change. 





> Finally, there is so much going on in the unconscious mind. It is a very ancient, very deep, complex construction, how can we ever claim to understand it?Do you truly think that switching on the logic center can really change how it works?



Being that this was a lucid dream, and that there was conscious control,  yeah.   Logic and reasoning can win over.

----------


## WhiteKnight

> It's like. We all have bad thoughts. You're saying you've never been mad at someone and had a passing thought about how great it would feel to do something bad to them? It isn't our thoughts(or what we do in our dreams)that make us who we are, it's what we decide to do(in real life) with those thoughts that make us who we are.



Of course I have. In fact its one of my most common and worst traits. Every time I serve someone who I think is snotty at work, I get these violent and wrathful images in my head.  I used to just go with it. But guess what I found? The more I thought on it, the easier it was to become annoyed with someone, or insulted by their manner.   I never acted on my rage and so I assumed it was ok.  But I came to find that my days at work slowly became filled with more and more anger, and weren't nearly as nice as when I started working there.  I would think to myself "You ****er, I am not you servant you can at least look at me when I'm talking to you", my mind would focus on that and it would go from there onto the next person who came to the counter.   Lately, when I've started thinking like this, I've begun to stop it deep in its tracks and will myself to go another direction. Am i still angry? Maybe, but I don't FEED it.  I concentrate on the job, and so work has steadily improved for me. 

You seem to believe that actions are all a person are.  That thoughts are not a part of you. That they should have their own standards away from the body.

----------


## TheEnthusiast

Philosopher's condescension amuses me.

Taking it to the extreme, is it morally wrong to cherish desires and dreams of unspeakably immoral acts, such as raping and killing young children?

I'd say it's down right creepy, but if somebody has such strong desires, but has the good conscious to not act on these terrible impulses, I would praise them for having good morals. They didn't ask to have such twisted desires, in the same way gays didn't ask for homosexuality (I'm not saying homosexuality is immoral in any way), and claustrophobic people didn't choose to be afraid of small spaces.

Maybe I should have voiced my opinion is Latin, just to one up Philosopher.

----------


## Elucive

This debate could go on forever. Personally, I say who cares what you do in your dreams? It's not real. The DC resisted because he probably expected her to, and we all know how that affects a dream. If she went along, would that make it okay?

----------


## Puffin

Expectation is everything in a dream. You expect a DC to do the chicken dance, and they will. I know that from experience.  :tongue2:

----------


## WhiteKnight

> Expectation is everything in a dream. You expect a DC to do the chicken dance, and they will. I know that from experience.



I've seen several people say the same thing.  I find it interesting. What few lucid dreams I have had have been brief.  I've noticed that very simple passing thoughts in my mind during the dream will suddenly alter the reality of the dream, while an conscious effort sometimes will not.  Makes me feel like a wizard in training  :Cheeky:

----------


## Prince_RIP

> I've seen several people say the same thing.  I find it interesting. What few lucid dreams I have had have been brief.  I've noticed that very simple passing thoughts in my mind during the dream will suddenly alter the reality of the dream, while an conscious effort sometimes will not.  Makes me feel like a wizard in training



You acknowledge the truth of it, but ignore the implications of it. Because of my low self esteem, when I see a girl in my dream I expect that she's going to reject me. Therefore, when I make a move on a girl in a dream, she rejects me, simply because I expected it. So should I never be able to have sex in a dream?

----------


## Waterknight

Rape is wrong. It is still wrong even in a dream. though in a dream you arent hurting anyone.Ive never had a DC resist though So idk

----------


## TheEnthusiast

> You acknowledge the truth of it, but ignore the implications of it. Because of my low self esteem, when I see a girl in my dream I expect that she's going to reject me. Therefore, when I make a move on a girl in a dream, she rejects me, simply because I expected it. So should I never be able to have sex in a dream?



Well, you've got two choices I guess.

1) Repair your self esteem
or
2) Just rape dream women

The choice is up to you, but the good thing about option number one is that it's going to have an affect on you both inside and outside the dream world.

(edit: there's also option number three, which is total abstinence, which we all know totally sucks)

----------


## WhiteKnight

> You acknowledge the truth of it, but ignore the implications of it. Because of my low self esteem, when I see a girl in my dream I expect that she's going to reject me. Therefore, when I make a move on a girl in a dream, she rejects me, simply because I expected it. So should I never be able to have sex in a dream?



No, I see the implications of it.  Being moral doesn't always mean doing what you like.  People cannot be moral 100% of the time. They can't.  Being moral is the act of trying to be.

----------


## Hukif

Hm, depends on views, but if you are lucid, you should be aware that it is all an image of your head, and as such, you aren't "raping" since it isn't even real...  and there is more than one reason as to why the DC would present as such, expectations my kid, you are no freak just because you didn't get full control in a LD <.<

----------


## Baron Samedi

> Don't worry. As long as you don't try to have some sexy time by force while you're NOT asleep, there's no problem. Unless you like guilt.
> I, for one, don't bother myself with the details like what "they" want. In my dreams I'm God. They are a part of me and have no other purpose but to obey me and do my bidding. If they choose they don't want to, well, that's their problem, not mine.
> EDIT: Oh, and, to get Nomad at ease, when I do go for it they come to me. Even if I may not believe that they're "real" I call them via thinking of it or make the "get over here" gesture in a way that there's no way they can see it. And they do it. Guess you could say I'm real careful about hurting real people.



Sounds like those are DC's.

----------


## kookyinc

No. Rape has serious consequences and deals with real human beings. You were interacting in a consequence-free environment with figments of your imagination. If I imagine killing someone, does that make me a murderer?

----------


## The Adventurer

filthy rapist! actually. i don't think there is anything wrong with you. your subconscious just thinks that you would be rejected because of possible low self-esteem(?)

----------


## Sedurut

> Thought this could do with the opinion of a *girl*.
> 
> Okay... There is something extremely immoral and disgusting about this... I'm sorry, that's just how I feel as a female, who has been previously raped...
> 
> _Rape.is.rape._
> If you fantasized during the day about rape, would that make you a freak? Yes.
> If you have a Lucid dream about raping someone, does that make you a freak? Of course it does.
> Let's define Lucid Dream.
> 
> ...



...Again, that's the same logic that drives homophobia and the desire to take violent video games and movies off the shelves.

By your logic, doing something to a nonexistent thing makes you a freak.

So, say, I was dreaming about war, or reenacting the movie Black Hawk Down. HOLY CRAP SOMEONE GOT KILLED I'M SUCH A SICK BASTARD!!!!

See what I mean? Nobody's getting hurt, therefor it doesn't matter. If a _nonexistent_ woman is _nonexistently_ forced into _nonexistent_ sex in a _dream_, how is it wrong? Where's the victim? Who is being hurt? Who is being wronged in any way, shape or form?

Besides, what about people who are into rough sex? Maybe it's not rape, maybe the dream character was _pretending_ to be raped, because it was erotic roleplay. Feel better now?  ::D: 

I'm sure being raped sucks. But it's also maybe bending the issue for you here.

----------


## Blacklight

> Has it ever occurred to you that there may be better things to do in dreams than sex?



Like _what_? Can you even do anything to have fun in a dream without ever hurting anyone and being forced to live with the guilt and knowledge that you are a freak and a criminal for the rest of your life?  ::roll::

----------


## Onforty

@To all theese "Its a mirror", yes it is, to a degree, but when a person gets power(And you get a power impossible to your waking life body) it changes.
That means it isnt you that is dreaming, but a pat of you that is impossible to exist in reality. You get godlike control of your own universe, what you do to it, is always good, if you think it. Do whatever you want, feel the extreme feeling. I have sex with the girls in my dreams, because they always wants me, and thats because i have heard that the girls are hungerign for me but dosent dare to say it.. And if they dont want it, ill just say "Put a banging donk on it" and leave the area, so i can move a mountain or something.. But mostly when they do this, theyre alway like "Oh its the king, ill better please him".
I blew up my own house in a dream once.. Did the "explosives spam gmod style with menu and everything" in my own house and shot at it with some gun (I wasent very creative at that point).. Would i even think about it in real life? NO FUCKING WAY! Would i think about rape in real life? NO FUCKING WAY! Because its not really me, its only a clone of me. I even drop off high places for fun, and for experimenting (What would the sub-c cook up for me?).

ITS YOUR FUCKING WORLD SON/BROTHER/CHAP/W/E

----------


## Ade

It is not about what is good or evil it is about what is, something constant, that can not be changed and suppressed.

Oh, if all was so simple!
Let me tell you something about the conscious mind -  it is always opened to the subconscious, so how can you truly be sure that even when you are turning on the logic center, your desicions are not influenced by it?
There is a very deep connection between these two minds which let’s face it, is yet to be explored. 

If you think that you are obligated to use LD to fight it, then you have doomed yourself to a failure.
It is impossible to destroy these instincts by ignoring them, even if you do learn to LD at will, even if all of your dreams are lucid. In this way you just bottle it up, and trust me when I say it will find a way to come up again.That is why I find it to be dangerous.
You think it is a question of morality, should it or shouldn’t it apply in the dream world?
I think it is a question of how far can you meddle with things you do not understand, like the function of the subconscious?


I understand your point of view, and I don't think you are an idiot, but sice we are on opposite sides of the road, I do find your lack of knownlege about yourself quite insulting.

----------


## WhiteKnight

> It is not about what is good or evil it is about what is, something constant, that can not be changed and suppressed.
> 
> Oh, if all was so simple!
> Let me tell you something about the conscious mind -  it is always opened to the subconscious, so how can you truly be sure that even when you are turning on the logic center, your desicions are not influenced by it?
> There is a very deep connection between these two minds which let’s face it, is yet to be explored. 
> 
> If you think that you are obligated to use LD to fight it, then you have doomed yourself to a failure.
> It is impossible to destroy these instincts by ignoring them, even if you do learn to LD at will, even if all of your dreams are lucid. In this way you just bottle it up, and trust me when I say it will find a way to come up again.That is why I find it to be dangerous.
> You think it is a question of morality, should it or shouldn’t it apply in the dream world?
> ...



By your logic, nothing we do can be changed. We should just give in to every desire or impulse we have because if we don't, it is dangerous.  The subconscious is the almighty ruler of the brain and we have no free will. Am I understanding this right?

----------


## Blacklight

That's a bit extreme. The point is to indulge your impulses in an environment in which no harm is done. To anyone. At all. That's different from going to the street and going medieval on someone because of a perceived slight.

----------


## jasonresno

To the OP: Of course you are. You consciously made the decision to rape somebody. The fact that there is no victim to run to the police doesn't change the actual act. It's sort of disgusting, honestly. It's sort of like this hypothetical question: If you could rape someone in REAL LIFE but she would never remember you did it and nobody else would find out...would you still do it?

I could no more force myself, in a dream, to go against my morals than I could in real life.  Your mind is your mind and what you fill it with is a reflection of yourself.

----------


## Bowie

> It's sort of like this hypothetical question: If you could rape someone in REAL LIFE but she would never remember you did it and nobody else would find out...would you still do it?



No it's not.

----------


## WhiteKnight

> That's a bit extreme. The point is to indulge your impulses in an environment in which no harm is done. To anyone. At all. That's different from going to the street and going medieval on someone because of a perceived slight.



Yes, but not everyone is blessed with the ability to lucid dream at will are they? What are you supposed to do then?

 You don't indulge a bad habit to make it go away. You don't indulge thoughts of cruelty or greed to get them to stop.

----------


## Prince_RIP

> To the OP: Of course you are.



 :Big laugh:

----------


## MatrixMaster92

Technically, no, not on the basis of the real world. But the dreamworld is also a place, so I would say there you are.

----------


## jasonresno

> No it's not.



Actually, yeah. Yeah it is. In both situations there is no "true" victim. Because a "true victim" in reality is aware of and suffers from their abuse. If you'd been raped, your mind swept clean of the event, you do not go on suffering. Therefore we have two victimless scenarios. Both of which are reprehensible.

At the very least don't soil your own mind.


Furthermore: If I were to sit around and daydream about fucking children. Or lucid dream and rape children... Is that OK? It's harmless, right?

 ::roll:: 

At some point all the dirty/terrible shit you daydream/think/lucid about starts to affect you. If the OP rapes women in his dreams every night I bet that's going to subconsciously, on some level, change him a little bit.

And at the very least if you have to ask yourself: "Wait...Am I a rapist?" you're probably not doing anything worth doing. But yeah. I can see myself being in this thread waaayy too long. I'm clocking out.

----------


## Blacklight

> Yes, but not everyone is blessed with the ability to lucid dream at will are they? What are you supposed to do then?
> 
>  You don't indulge a bad habit to make it go away. You don't indulge thoughts of cruelty or greed to get them to stop.



Get a girlfriend into fake rape, watch fake rape porn, use your imagination or go see a therapist.

What's your point? You don't indulge in anything that could cause direct harm to anyone to make it stop. You can't make it stop so you cope with it the best you can.

----------


## jasonresno

I think this is sorta hilarious. The OP can lucid dream. He is literally in a place where the only limit on his abilities is his imagination...and he can't even get a girl to want to be with him :/

----------


## Bowie

> I think this is sorta hilarious. The OP can lucid dream. He is literally in a place where the only limit on his abilities is his imagination...and he can't even get a girl to want to be with him :/



Dude. How can you talk about someone elses dream control abilities when you haven't even had your first lucid dream yourself? That's what I think is sorta hilarious. It's not that easy, you'll see when you get LD's.

----------


## XeL

> I think this is sorta hilarious. The OP can lucid dream. He is literally in a place where the only limit on his abilities is his imagination...and he can't even get a girl to want to be with him :/



Yes, because lucidity always = perfect control.

/sarcasm





> Furthermore: If I were to sit around and daydream about fucking children. Or lucid dream and rape children... Is that OK? It's harmless, right?



Yes.





> At some point all the dirty/terrible shit you daydream/think/lucid about starts to affect you. If the OP rapes women in his dreams every night I bet that's going to subconsciously, on some level, change him a little bit.



No.

----------


## jasonresno

> Yes, because lucidity always = perfect control.
> 
> /sarcasm
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> ...



Gotta love opinions with nothing to back them.

----------


## XeL

Read ETWOLD?

Also, personal experiences.

----------


## Reptile00Seven

I have to say.  I really don't believe in dream interaction with other people.  Too far fetched for my belief.

----------


## Watchman

I think some of the replies to this thread are hilariously funny!   I really do!!  

I'm sure most have heard the expression "Thought Police", those who troll various forums waiting for any chance to flame others who dare to think differently (or express themselves honestly).  So now, do we also have "Lucid Dream Police" patrolling threads to make sure people only indulge in "moralistic" lucid dreams??   ::lol::   It's absurd and ridiculous (to say the least).

----------


## jasonresno

I shouldn't have mocked his LD ability. You two were right about that. So I do apologize for that.

Past that: I personally wouldn't do it. It seems a bit of a slippery slope. But what you guys do doesn't affect me, so I don't care either way.

----------


## Prince_RIP

> I think some of the replies to this thread are hilariously funny!   I really do!!  
> 
> I'm sure most have heard the expression "Thought Police", those who troll various forums waiting for any chance to flame others who dare to think differently (or express themselves honestly).  So now, do we also have "Lucid Dream Police" patrolling threads to make sure people only indulge in "moralistic" lucid dreams??    It's absurd and ridiculous (to say the least).



lol that's exactly how I feel...I don't even consider the argument that doing something in a lucid dream is wrong to be legitimate whatsoever...honestly all these people who are saying that are cracking me up.  ::lol::

----------


## jasonresno

> lol that's exactly how I feel...I don't even consider the argument that doing something in a lucid dream is wrong to be legitimate whatsoever...honestly all these people who are saying that are cracking me up.



Then why make the initial post?

Auuggghh. Not so obvious troll is revealed.

----------


## MJMax

> To the OP: Of course you are. You consciously made the decision to rape somebody. The fact that there is no victim to run to the police doesn't change the actual act. It's sort of disgusting, honestly. *It's sort of like this hypothetical question: If you could rape someone in REAL LIFE but she would never remember you did it and nobody else would find out...would you still do it?*
> 
> I could no more force myself, in a dream, to go against my morals than I could in real life.  Your mind is your mind and what you fill it with is a reflection of yourself.



It's absolutely _nothing_ like that. In that situation, someone would still be hurt, even if they wouldn't be able to remember it afterwards. I wouldn't be able to do something like that in that situation either, because I'd know I'd be hurting someone. That's horrible.

But the people in lucid dreams _don't freaking exist_. Simple as that. Why would having sex with someone who _isn't freaking conscious_ be immoral?

In a hypothetical situation, where no one would remember anything afterwards, raping someone would be IMMORAL.

In a lucid dreaming, "raping" someone doesn't hurt _anyone_. Someone's gotta agree with me.

----------


## illidan

_jeffreydc_, I am not quite sure what you expected us to do when you opened this thread. I can think of three possibilities:

1.) Debate whether you could be charged with rape.
2.) Help you come to terms with your own moral values.
3.) Judge your dream in the context of our morality.

*As for 1.)*
I can't speak for all countries and I don't know where you live, but I believe that in most countries you have nothing to worry about.

*As for 2.)*
I guess it all boils down to whether or not you think that moral values apply to thoughts. Because that's what dreams are: thoughts. It's all in your mind. Is the thought/dream of raping someone morally wrong or just the act of doing it in real life? It feels like I have just rephrased your question. I guess it depends on how you feel about it. You are the one who is most qualified to talk about your own moral values, so I don't think we can help you much there.

*As for 3.)*
I'm afraid, I can't help you here much either. I'm an incurable relativist and an unmoral person, too. I understand that morality exists only in relation to a social or cultural context and (un)fortunately I have no moral values of my own. I am simply not concerned with morality. That doesn't mean that I'm immoral. Most of the time I adhere to the moral standards of society, simply because it is practical. It also doesn't mean that I have not opinion on moral questions. My opinions are simply not morally founded.

About the topic at hand I can only say: If I wanted to rape people in my dreams, I would do it.

----------


## Prince_RIP

> Then why make the initial post?
> 
> Auuggghh. Not so obvious troll is revealed.



so if i'm convinced that the other opinion is silly, yet still voice my opinion, that makes me a troll?

...not sure if you know what troll means...

----------


## BrandonTyberius

Philo it sounds like you didnt read what I wrote.

----------


## GabrielG

Lol once I tried to have sex with a girl in a lucid dream and when she saw my penis she laughed :Sad:  but I ignored it and she just shrugged and continued

----------


## DawgBone

> I always thought that my dream characters were mindless beings simply there for my amusement.  Perhaps I was wrong?



Your behavior in an LD depends on what you think dreams actually are.  

The materialistic view would be that dreams are the random and arbitrary creations of your brain.  That they have no reality outside your brain.  They are entirely "yours."

A yogi, on the other hand, would say that dreams are nightly experiences on the astral plane.  A yogi would say that there are a multitude of other REAL BEINGS on the astral plane, and that dreams are not entirely "yours".

In addition, yogis believe that the astral plane is where events first appear.  Astral events are a dress rehearsal for real events in physical reality.  It is even possible to influence and change "astral events" before they materialize in physical reality.  This is not to say that all dream events materialize; they obviously don't.  And dreams are often symbolic, so even when they do, it will usually not be a literal materialization. But prophetic dreams do happen.  Some astral events DO materialize, and you have some control and some responsibility over this.

If you buy the yogi point of view, you should behave yourself on the astral plane.  That's not to say that you shouldn't have fun.  Fun's okay.  But violence of any kind is not a good idea.  

Ask first!  :--)

----------


## Sedurut

> Gotta love opinions with nothing to back them.




I hope I'm not the only one who lol'd at this.

----------


## MJMax

> I hope I'm not the only one who lol'd at this.



This entire topic is lol-worthy. It's amazing how much of a shitstorm can start by insulting someone's morality.

----------


## XeL

> This entire topic is lol-worthy. It's amazing how much of a shitstorm can start by insulting someone's morality *IN DREAMS*.



Fix'd. And yes, it's quite hilarious.

----------


## Baron Samedi

> Lol once I tried to have sex with a girl in a lucid dream and when she saw my penis she laughed but I ignored it and she just shrugged and continued



 :laugh: 

thanks for sharing!

----------


## Elucive

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. Haven't seen such a back and forth discussion in a while.

----------


## WhiteKnight

Now what is beginning is a fun tactic called ‘ if we laugh at it, other people will get the idea that it is ridiculous ‘.  You’ve probably seen certain political “comedians” and pundits use the same tactic.  They will laugh at a concept or present in a tone that indicates that is a joke, but never fully explain why exactly its funny. Right about now there are one or two posters going “duh, its because the thought trying to implement morality into dreams is stupid. You can’t.”   I agree. You can’t in normal dreams. But a lucid dream isn’t a normal dream is it?  But somehow this is funny, there is the unspoken hope that if enough people laugh and roll their eyes at it, that it won’t be taken seriously.  

The concept that you might have to take responsibility for your own conscious thoughts is horrible to some.  Even more horrible when it is inflicted on the perceived sanctity of a lucid dream.  If thoughts themselves can be moral or immoral, good or evil.  Then (gasp) lucid dreams could fall under that category because we have free will in them!  Who is this to tell me what I should and should not think? Not fantasize about?

 “Its MINE. MY DREAMS. MY OWN. And I can do anything I want with them!”

I’m not telling you what to do. I am telling you that the indulgence of rape in a lucid dream, and to fantasize about rape is wrong.  I can’t make you be a decent human being.  You can’t force someone to act moral.  The lucid dream of, and fantasizing of rape is no where near as bad as the actual act of rape, but it is bad.  Because committing evil isn’t just an act.  It takes a WILL.  It takes the desire and will to commit the act. That is why this is so disgusting.  Not because anything was done in reality, but because the evil was brought to the surface and given indulgence.  It was given into.
“Whats the harm? It wasn’t REAL! It doesn’t matter!”  

 No, not to others no, but you see what lies beneath it? You indulged it, you let that nasty little shadow in your soul out.  

“What could it hurt? It’s a dream world, nothing is real. Have some fun.”

What it wants is your will. You want it fulfilled so what it wants is what you want.  It is a part of you. A part every person has. Its been let out and rarely is it content to be put back in the box for long. Maybe for a while, and then it will grow restless again.   Have you ever cheated on a test, or stolen something? Usually one of the first thoughts that passes through your mind is “That was kind of easy” or something along those lines.  Then you may wonder from time to time if you could get away with it again.  

“Its always going to be there. Everyone has these thoughts. The important thing is that you don’t ACT on them”

Yes, that is the depressing part. For all your life you will always be stuck with this thing. This part of you, and sometimes it will escape. There is a difference, however, between the person who slips up and it accidentally escapes, and the person who lets it out.  A poster  here said something to the effect that you can’t make this thing go away, so cope with it.  One of the suggestions I believe was “get a girlfriend into fake rape, watch fake rape porn”   Is that really an option? If you want to be that sort of person go right ahead, I can’t force you into anything.  They confuse ‘cope’ with ‘giving in’.  

I understand that, I really do. It feels so good to just drop the box sometimes. To just let the slack out of the chains and take a breather. Let the vicious little specter out so it will stop shouting at you and you can get some quiet.  A lucid dream must seem like the best sort of place to do this, but you forget that the most important part of you is still there.  Your will.  Believe me, it’s a nice welcome to have it no longer screeching and talking your ear off.  Just give it what it wants so it will shut up.

You see however, there is a problem with me and it.  The problem is, I HATE IT.   I despise and loath this part of me. This corrosive little shadow of myself.  It is everything bad and wrong with me. It is every lie, every uncharitable thought, every cruelty, every bit of self pride I’ve ever had. That is what is in that little black box.  If I have to carry this little vermin around with me until the day I die, then I will do my best to make sure it stays in that box as much as possible. That the sweet taste of dreams or fresh air is as foreign to it  as another universe.  Sometimes, I will fail horribly, but just because it got a vacation today doesn’t mean I should give it one tomorrow.  If you despise this part of you, if you want to be better than the poison in your soul, then you have to reject it every moment you can.  Waking, or asleep.

----------


## Prince_RIP

Your position that raping someone in a dream is immoral IS laughable. We're not doing it to discredit your position, we're doing it because it's funny to us.

Now, another point. There are people, guys and girls, that fantasize about rape. The girl who fantasizes about it probably wouldn't want to actually be brutally raped, and the guy who fantasized about it probably has no intention of actually raping a girl. That being said, what if you were in a relationship and both of you thought the idea of rape was hot?(keeping in mind that the guy wouldn't do it and the girl wouldn't actually want it to happen to her) So they decide to role play as if he's raping her. Would that be immoral? No, it's just a fantasy. So too is raping a girl in your dream just a fantasy.

----------


## Sedurut

White Knight... That was a bit TL;DR and I skimmed it.

But basically, you're saying that rape is immoral, and the desire to rape someone is an immoral thought.

I think we can both agree, though, that there is nothing inherently _wrong_ with it. 

Also, the thing I was laughing at was the fact that the person I quoted gave no real evidence of his/her view and why it's correct, and then tried to call someone else out for the same thing.

However, it is also true that thought police is ridiculous.

----------


## Mzzkc

I have a question.

How many of you, right here, right now, can prove to me you exist?

----------


## Reptile00Seven

> I have a question.
> 
> How many of you, right here, right now, can prove to me you exist?



 Is responding to your forum post not conclusive enough???

----------


## Mzzkc

> Is responding to your forum post not conclusive enough???



Sadly, no. 

I can't be sure of your existence until you prove you exist outside of my subjective reality.

----------


## Reptile00Seven

> Sadly, no. 
> 
> I can't be sure of your existence until you prove you exist outside of my subjective reality.



Has you subjective reality ever potrayed a forum member as someone who doesn't exist?

What does doubt do for you in terms discovering what is real or not?

----------


## Mzzkc

> Has you subjective reality ever potrayed a forum member as someone who doesn't exist?
> 
> What does doubt do for you in terms discovering what is real or not?



I don't see how this is relevant to my original query. Can you, or can you not, prove your existence to me?

----------


## Prince_RIP

Obviously noone can prove their existence to you, as you can't prove your existence to me. It's an interesting thought, but completely unverifiable either way. What you're talking about is solipsism. 

That being said, it appears to be obvious trolling and trying to derail a thread.

----------


## Mzzkc

You're too quick to call the troll card.

Before I continue, however, I have one more question to ask.

Recalling I have no way to verify you are nothing more than an illusion created by my mind, what is the difference between you and one of my DCs?

----------


## Prince_RIP

> You're too quick to call the troll card.
> 
> Before I continue, however, I have one more question to ask.
> 
> Recalling I have no way to verify you are nothing more than an illusion created by my mind, what is the difference between you and one of my DCs?



All evidence points to me being real. Science proves me to be real. Science proves your DC to be a figment of your imagination. As you said, it's unverifiable. Hell, maybe the dream world is the true reality and our waking life is fake. There's no way to know. There is no logical reason to think that real life isn't real, however, though it is possible.

----------


## Mzzkc

> All evidence points to me being real.



If you'd be so kind as to list this evidence, I'd appreciate it.





> Science proves me to be real.



I thought we already determined science cannot prove this.





> Science proves your DC to be a figment of your imagination.



I'd really like to see the papers on this one.





> As you said, it's unverifiable.



Right, which means stating any of these as fact in a debate, such as this, is a fallacy. 





> Hell, maybe the dream world is the true reality and our waking life is fake. There's no way to know. There is no logical reason to think that real life isn't real, however, though it is possible.



I think you're just trying to avoid the startling similarities between dreams and waking life. In actuality, there is no logically sound and meaningful difference between a person I see while awake, and a person I see while dreaming.

Therefore, I don't understand why it's morally okay to rape one and not the other.

From a logical standpoint, of course.

----------


## Sedurut

How about the fact that you can make them do whatever you want with your thoughts?

----------


## Mzzkc

> How about the fact that you can make them do whatever you want with your thoughts?



I do that IWL, too. It just takes a bit more work. However, the concepts behind the two are remarkably similar.

----------


## Sedurut

...IWL? In Waking Life?

Make me do something. I don't believe you. Do it.

----------


## Mzzkc

I just did, actually. But I don't expect you to believe that. So you won't.

----------


## Sedurut

Tell me.

It better not be "I just made you reply to a post," though.

----------


## Mzzkc

Haha, it was more like making you challenge me and prove myself than anything else.

The next bit was telling you I had already done it and make you not believe me, while simultaneously and cleverly proving I could do it by telling you you wouldn't believe me. =P

For incredibly simple things like this, it's really not very hard to do, as long as you can guess well enough how the other person thinks. In the end, it's all where you direct their focus, how you word things, etc. Subtly guiding their path until you reach your desired outcome. 

More complex tasks take quite a bit more work, but they are possible. However, in dreams, everything is much more straightforward, and usually only takes a small bit of direction before you get the essence of what you want. Of course, like in reality, there are the odd cases where the DC doesn't do exactly what you wanted them to do. This is true even for people with significant amount of control experience.

Edit: I really hope someone is seeing what I've been doing here. XD

----------


## Sedurut

...Yeah.

So you're saying that because you told me you can control my thoughts... and I challenged you, that that's what you wanted all along thereby proving your point that characters in dreams are real people?

It's a bit of a stretch.

----------


## Sedurut

I'm going to sleep. Good morning.

----------


## Bonsay

The only thing the OP "fantasized about" in his dream is sex. He didn't rape anybody, the concept of rape only came to him as he woke up and thought about the DC as a potentially conscious entity. He had sex with a DC that reacted negatively, but the reaction isn't something he wanted. So I don't see how you people can mix up a person having sex with his own subconsious projecting a non-compliant random DC with a person who rapes people because "he has a little rapist beast THAT WANTS TO COME OUT RARGH! RARGH!".

 Seriously... The first times I had LDs people wanted to kill me for the simple reason that I said it was all a dream and I had to slaughter them with knives... and when I did have sex they also seemed to struggle. But after my confidence in my dream control grew DCs and dream space-time just did what I wanted. If I wanted them to fly away they did, if I wanted them to have sex they did, if I wanted to make a nuclear explosion I could. So no, you're not a rapist or a murderer. We LDers are just potentially immoral if we find out that DCs aren't just DCs, but some emergent entities with consciousness like us. If that's true, hurting and being hurt is a part of reality we can have little to no effect on. There is no evil part of me hidden inside that wants to cause pain and suffering... there are parts that want to hunt and fight, but cause suffering? No. There is a difference between those things. Just like there is a difference in the OPs case - between having sex while causing suffering and just having sex. As far as he knew in the dream he did the latter.


He only had a problem with it because he woke up thinking about a DC as a human, not a spontaneous image generated from memory and certain behavioral imprints. So if anything should be discussed here is not whether OP or people like him (everybody here) have little rapists, psychopatic murderers or zombie hunters deep inside them, but whether dreams are only ours or a part of some other consciousness like the DCs or whatever. And this is for beyond dreaming/philosophy/RS section if anything.

----------


## Prince_RIP

Ok bud...if you wanna say that there is no difference between real life and dream life then by all means...you'll understand if I, as well as almost everyone else, doesn't agree with you.

As has been said, you can manipulate your dream world to do whatever you want. If you can control real life, turn my room into an african safari and make me fly onto an elephant and ride him.

----------


## Baron Samedi

If you have dream with another dreamer in it, you can't make them do shit, no matter how godly your dream control is.

----------


## bored2tears

After I complete my MILD DVA task, I am going to kill everyone I see in my dream. Yep. I am going to be a mass serial killer. I am going to be a mass serial killer in real life because I killed DCs in my DREAM. Instead of killing people in my IMAGINARY WORLD, I am going to kill people in REAL LIFE.

Maybe I should force people to have sex with me in my dreams. Yes, maybe I should rape someone in my dreams. Then, by doing this, I will end up raping people in REAL LIFE.

[/sarcasm]


The person you dreamt you were raping was a dream character. Just a projection of your mind. It is not a real person that is getting hurt. If it was a shared dream, as Nomad was saying, you cannot make them do anything. You didn't hurt anybody! If it bothers you so much that you did this, then don't do it again. It is as simple as that.

In a dream, you are not hurting anybody. In real life, you are hurting someone.

Oh well. If it bothers you so much, stop it.


Edit: Don't let anybody else tell you that you are a rapist or that you are not a rapist. You decide what you are. So, what are you? A rapist, or no?

----------


## Hukif

Because depending on views, dreams = your mind, so your DCs = yourself, in which case you are masturbating lol
So if you believe dreams = your mind, then it isn't rape, wonder why this thing got so complicated when its so simple... don't people know the situation varies depending on beliefs?

----------


## Mzzkc

> ...Yeah.
> 
> So you're saying that because you told me you can control my thoughts... and I challenged you, that that's what you wanted all along thereby proving your point that characters in dreams are real people?
> 
> It's a bit of a stretch.



You're still missing the underlying principles. You've never actually controlled someone in dreams, have you? And if you have, I don't think you understood the mechanics of it.





> Ok bud...if you wanna say that there is no difference between real life and dream life then by all means...you'll understand if I, as well as almost everyone else, doesn't agree with you.



In terms of perception, and how the images are finally formed and stored, there is no discernible difference. Whether you've realized it or not, dreams and waking life are two sides of the same coin. Lucid dreaming skirts the edge of that coin. All I'm trying to do here is make this issue as complicated as it actually is. None of you seem to have allocated a sufficient amount thought to it. To me, it appears your intuition is doing all the work, otherwise no one would be throwing around words like "real" and "non-existent".





> As has been said, you can manipulate your dream world to do whatever you want. If you can control real life, turn my room into an african safari and make me fly onto an elephant and ride him.



Ha, don't be retarded. First of all, manipulating the dream world is essentially the same as altering your perception, something fairly easy to accomplish in that sleeping state, as long as you know what you're doing, anyways. Secondly, what you suggest I do is possible, but would require me to invoke severe and drastic changes in how you perceive the world. I think you'll agree, that's much easier said than done. Perhaps taking some hallucinogens will help you with that.

----------


## MJMax

Sure, dream characters could be real beings. But couldn't the ground beneath you also be a conscious being just as well? Does that stop you from walking? Couldn't baseball gloves be the true sentient beings in our world? Should we stop throwing baseballs to each other at this thought? We could be hurting them. What about those Goombas in Super Mario Brothers? They could be conscious too! Let's stop playing Super Mario Brothers, we could be hurting them!

----------


## Mzzkc

> Sure, dream characters could be real beings. But couldn't the ground beneath you also be a conscious being just as well? Does that stop you from walking? Couldn't baseball gloves be the true sentient beings in our world? Should we stop throwing baseballs to each other at this thought? We could be hurting them. What about those Goombas in Super Mario Brothers? They could be conscious too! Let's stop playing Super Mario Brothers, we could be hurting them!



I see why Philosopher gets frustrated. Sorry for the jab, but your level of reading comprehension is pretty low, neh? If you had payed attention, you'd see I never claimed DCs were sentient. In fact, if anything, I've been suggestion the opposite is true.

Also, even if I had made the claim that DCs are sentient, your counter points are silly and downright laughable. They add nothing to this conversation, except blatant ignorance toward the issue at hand.

----------


## MJMax

> I see why Philosopher gets frustrated. Sorry for the jab, but your level of reading comprehension is pretty low, neh? If you had payed attention, you'd see I never claimed DCs were sentient. In fact, if anything, I've been suggestion the opposite is true.
> 
> Also, even if I had made the claim that DCs are sentient, your counter points are silly and downright laughable. They add nothing to this conversation, except blatant ignorance toward the issue at hand.



What point are you trying to make, then? You say that there is no way to prove objectively that any one of us exists, and that the same is true of dreams. Are you trying to prove that there is no way to discern objectively what exists, between the dream world and reality?

What do you consider "existence?" Since the "issue" at hand here is whether "rape" in dreams is immoral, I'd assume that by "existence" you mean sentience. After all, if dreams are merely projections of the brain, they do exist in your brain, even if they are merely unconscious perceptions.

Calling arguments laughable and saying someone is being "blatantly ignorant to the 'issue' at hand" adds nothing to the conversation.

----------


## Waterknight

HEy I just thought of something. Was the DC trying to resist and fight and get away? or was it just something like she sat there and did whatever but you could tell she would rather be somewhere else?

Oh and I have controlled dream people before but what I did was put my conciousness inside the DC and basically posessed them. I guess there are other ways to do it though.

----------


## Mzzkc

> What point are you trying to make, then? You say that there is no way to prove objectively that any one of us exists, and that the same is true of dreams. Are you trying to prove that there is no way to discern objectively what exists, between the dream world and reality?



Spot on. This realization effectively nullifies the argument that it's okay to rape DCs because they "don't exist."





> What do you consider "existence?" Since the "issue" at hand here is whether "rape" in dreams is immoral, I'd assume that by "existence" you mean sentience. After all, if dreams are merely projections of the brain, they do exist in your brain, even if they are merely unconscious perceptions.



You're getting close here. By existence, I mean anything that lays outside my perception of reality, of its own accord. You said yourself "dreams are merely projections of the brain." The same can be said of the waking world. For all intents and purposes, we are living in a dream. When we sleep, what forms around us _becomes_ our reality.





> Calling arguments laughable and saying someone is being "blatantly ignorant to the 'issue' at hand" adds nothing to the conversation.



You are completely right. It was a spiteful way to discredit your idea, and I apologize.

----------


## Elucive

You know, I've been thinking. This might sound completely dumb, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway. If there's anything wrong with raping someone in a dream, then it must be in a regular dream. In a lucid dream, some people would say it's okay because since they're lucid, they understand that the "victim" isn't real, and there are no consequences. However, if you rape someone in a normal dream, that would actually be much worse because in a normal dream you think everything is completely real, and you go about things as if they WERE real. What I'm trying to say is, whatever it is you do in a normal dream, I think it's safe to say that that's what you would actually do if it were real life.

I doubt this applies to everyone, but almost everytime I review a normal dream, I conclude, "yeh that's exactly what I would've done if it were real". Anyways, does anyone see my point here? Forget lucids, I think it's what you do in your non-lucid dreams that matter. It's easy to do stuff in lucids because hey, you know it's not real. But if you had a non-lucid dream in which you raped someone, then that's probably when you wake up and think "What the fuck, did I really just do that?". I hope I haven't offended anyone. Just something I've been thinking about.

----------


## Mzzkc

It's a good thought, but your state of consciousness within dreams, waking life, and lucid dreams are all drastically different. It is inaccurate to assume what you'd do in one, is what you'd do in the other.

----------


## BrandonTyberius

Is anyone interested in a shared dream where I rape you? No amphibians or freaks.


(joking)

----------


## BrandonTyberius

> It's a good thought, but your state of consciousness within dreams, waking life, and lucid dreams are all drastically different. It is inaccurate to assume what you'd do in one, is what you'd do in the other.



Mzzk I agree. In dreams I sometimes do things I wouldnt do in waking.

----------


## GabrielG

if she was resisting and fighting i wouldnt care i would punch her (ofc i wouldnt do it irl but i feel so free in my dreams to litterally do whatever i feel) one time i pissed on someone that was annoying me  and i sometimes walk around a city butt naked (in the dream lol)

----------


## Ade

In real life do as you please, think what you please. An impulse is something far more less than an instinct.
O.k let me put this in a more simple way...There are some primitive animal instincts which have been suppresed by the conscious mind from a very early age. There are also many layers of the subconscious, which are  unreachable for the conscious mind and other layers of the subconscious.
The bottom layer of subconsciousness is the collective unconscious, it is also the place for these  "repressed weaknesses" - archetypes (I am refering to this one perticular "weakness").
Usually they are projected on to other people in reall life and on to other DC in dreams, but a persons action can be overwhelmed by these "evil impulses" in moments of indecision( even lucid moments).
The point is, your obsession with good and evil can push things like that aside in every day life(in theory), but to the deeper levels of the subconscious it means nothing. When exactly did it become a question of who rules what? It is just he way it works.
You don't have to fight it or accept it, but  acknowledge it as a fact.

Shame, guilt, pride, fear, hate, envy, need, and greed are inevitable byproducts of ego-building. They call forth the polarity of inferiority feeling and power drive. They are the shadow aspects of the first emancipation of the ego. -- Edward C. Whitmont

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## macrylinda

> I don't _seem_ to think, I _do_ think. It is YOUR opinion that doing something in a dream can be immoral, and that's a position that I truly can't understand.



Moral is knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is without a doubt MORALLY WRONG to rape a woman. So rape is MORALLY wrong REGARDLESS if you do it in your head or for real. It is an IMMORAL THOUGHT. The difference is one of the two will land you in prison for about 20 years!

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## Baron Samedi

> if she was resisting and fighting i wouldnt care i would punch her (ofc i wouldnt do it irl but i feel so free in my dreams to litterally do whatever i feel) one time i pissed on someone that was annoying me  and i sometimes walk around a city butt naked (in the dream lol)



Good point. I have killed hundreds or even thousands of people in dreams. I have also chilled at school buckass naked, and no one notices, nor do I give a rat's ass for some reason. 





> Moral is knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is without a doubt MORALLY WRONG to rape a woman. So rape is MORALLY wrong REGARDLESS if you do it in your head or for real. It is an IMMORAL THOUGHT. The difference is one of the two will land you in prison for about 20 years!



Have you ever done anything immoral in a dream?

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## TheEnthusiast

> Moral is knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is without a doubt MORALLY WRONG to rape a woman. So rape is MORALLY wrong REGARDLESS if you do it in your head or for real. It is an IMMORAL THOUGHT. The difference is one of the two will land you in prison for about 20 years!



We can't base morality on one's thoughts. Thoughts and desires are largely beyond our control. Homosexuals have sexual thoughts about the same sex, and we don't blame them for such thoughts. That's an example of perfectly moral thoughts. Take someone, who by unfortunate chance, sexually lusts towards children. Are this person's sexual thoughts (caused by what I would call an unfortunate sexual perversion) immoral? I would say that thoughts are not eligible for moral judgement; only actions are. I don't think condemning people for thought crime is moral.

It's you're thoughts versus your actions, that really determines your morality.
I'm fortunate in that I've never been plagued by "immoral" desires, so remaining a moral citizen has been easy for me.
I respect moral citizens who do have "immoral" desires, and choose not to act on them.

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## r2d2651

If your next lucid dream takes place in a court room, then yes..

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## Mayatara

Well, to shock you even more, I am a girl and once I had a dream that I was a guy and I also forced a girl to have sex with me. When doing it I was aware that maybe it wasn't such a nice thing to do, but I also wanted to know how it feels. If it was today, I don't think I would do it anymore, for many reasons.
I have come to know that what we do in dreams generates karma just like what we do in wake life - if you don't accept the law of action-reaction, then you won't swallow it, but I do, so I am actually now using my dreams to get more control of my mind and not to go crazy and do whatever I feel like.
Even if you don't accept karma or karma in dreams, at least consider that what you do in dreams shapes your mind - if you get a taste on forcing girls into sex while dreaming, you're likely to become more rough with them when you're awake, because you are feeding this habit, tendency or pattern of behaviour in your dreams. You might not believe it for now, but eventually it will change you.
Then, if you believe in the possibility of dream sharing (and I am one of those who had experienced it) it's better not to mess up with the DC, because you don't know which ones are your projections and which ones are actual dreamers happening to be sharing a dream with you. It's not nice to be raped on a dream by another dreamer who thinks it's ok, because it's just their imagination. I have also been victim of dream rape by some random guy (I guess karma for having forced the other girl) and it wasn't nice and I believe he wasn't just my projection but actually some dreamer having reckless fun. Boys will be boys, but please get a little more control over your dick, even in dreams it can hurt unintended people.

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## Watchman

> Moral is knowing the difference between right and wrong. It is without a doubt MORALLY WRONG to rape a woman. So rape is MORALLY wrong REGARDLESS if you do it in your head or for real. It is an IMMORAL THOUGHT. The difference is one of the two will land you in prison for about 20 years!



...and the other one?.. The one which won't land you in prison for about 20 years?...

It's immoral thoughts to some...but to the same it's not immoral LDs!

We all differ, time to leave it at!

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## Rubber

Internet arguments.

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## Ade

Sorry for sounding so angry, but what is the matter with you people!?
Why don't you turn every house into a garden, every factory into a beautiful cloud so it wouldn't pollute, every cripple into a healthy young man?
Isn't it wrong that you dream of such things or see them lucidly or non-lucidly?

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## Mzzkc

> Sorry for sounding so angry, but what is the matter with you people!?
> Why don't you turn every house into a garden, every factory into a beautiful cloud so it wouldn't pollute, every cripple into a healthy young man?
> Isn't it wrong that you dream of such things or see them lucidly or non-lucidly?



It's only human nature to desire the destruction and decay of everything around you. =P

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## Prince_RIP

> Sorry for sounding so angry, but what is the matter with you people!?
> Why don't you turn every house into a garden, every factory into a beautiful cloud so it wouldn't pollute, every cripple into a healthy young man?
> Isn't it wrong that you dream of such things or see them lucidly or non-lucidly?



lol....ummm...some of us don't think clouds and gardens are the funnest things in the world when we can do anything...lol. And why would a heal a person who is only crippled because my mind made him that way? lol. If you think looking at gardens and clouds is the epitome of fun then by all means, do that in your lucid dreams. Some of us think there is stuff to do that is more fun.

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## TheEnthusiast

> lol....ummm...some of us don't think clouds and gardens are the funnest things in the world when we can do anything...lol. And why would a heal a person who is only crippled because my mind made him that way? lol. If you think looking at gardens and clouds is the epitome of fun then by all means, do that in your lucid dreams. Some of us think there is stuff to do that is more fun.



You clearly completely missed his point. It must have gone right over your head.

He's pointing out how your dreams are littered with immoral elements, and he's pointing out the absurdity in pinning anyone morally responsible for them.

He does make that point, but I don't think it's very relevant.

We're debating the morality of thoughts and desires. Is it wrong to sexually desire rough sex/rape? Is it wrong to fantasize about that? Is it wrong to privately fantasize about it in your dreams?

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## Prince_RIP

> You clearly completely missed his point. It must have gone right over your head.
> 
> He's pointing out how your dreams are littered with immoral elements, and he's pointing out the absurdity in pinning anyone morally responsible for them.
> 
> He does make that point, but I don't think it's very relevant.
> 
> We're debating the morality of thoughts and desires. Is it wrong to sexually desire rough sex/rape? Is it wrong to fantasize about that? Is it wrong to privately fantasize about it in your dreams?



Yeahhh i didn't get the point...I misread it...I just read the first part and inserted a certain tone into it and didn't read the last sentence...it can be hard to sense internet sarcasm. Yet trying to make me look stupid by saying "it must have gone right over your head" just makes you look like a douchebag internet tough guy. Obviously I misread it, that doesn't have anything to do with my intelligence, I just misread it, so there's no sense in being a dick about it.  ::roll::

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## Rathez

This thread is still going?  Horny kid wanted sex but had a moral dilema when he realized that normally, you can't just grab and randomly do a chick, but since it was a dream, he could do anything. The simple acknowledgement of the difference between reality and dream shows that he understands.

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## Watchman

> .....We're debating the morality of thoughts and desires. Is it wrong to sexually desire rough sex/rape? Is it wrong to fantasize about that? Is it wrong to privately fantasize about it in your dreams?



Yes indeed, it seems that we're debating the morality of thoughts and desires, but why? 
Morality or not, it's not ours to debate. What is immoral to one is fine to others in LDs. Frankly I don't care what others wish to LD about, it's nothing to do with me or anyone else for that matter, and it's a complete waste of time discussing the issue!

I'm waiting for the true question that's really being asked here, to which a lot of people seemed to have missed completely!!....

The real question *jeffreydc* want's to know is....Are all DC's in LDs just mindless beings simply there for pleasure or not? This DC seemed to him to have an independent character all of her own. 
Being a nice chap in RL, he's now in a dilemma because if SOME DCs are a kind of "Dream Sharing Contact" with a real person sleeping in her bed...then he feel awful!! 
So he's come here to try and find out from you kind people!! 

I've quite a few unusual encounters with DCs before, not all are minless things as I've discovered. One young lady I met recently in a LD said she was a "hedge throw Witch" (whatever that is). She was in fact rather rude to me after I asked her if she was just my DC, she then had me picking tree bark and flowers for her, and promptly left without saying thanks or good bye!  I have no idea what happened or caused this LD, for I have not been thinking anything like this at all!

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## Baron Samedi

> Yes indeed, it seems that we're debating the morality of thoughts and desires, but why? 
> Morality or not, it's not ours to debate. What is immoral to one is fine to others in LDs. Frankly I don't care what others wish to LD about, it's nothing to do with me or anyone else for that matter, and it's a complete waste of time discussing the issue!
> 
> I'm waiting for the true question that's really being asked here, to which a lot of people seemed to have missed completely!!....
> 
> The real question *jeffreydc* want's to know is....Are all DC's in LDs just mindless beings simply there for pleasure or not? This DC seemed to him to have an independent character all of her own. 
> Being a nice chap in RL, he's now in a dilemma because if SOME DCs are a kind of "Dream Sharing Contact" with a real person sleeping in her bed...then he feel awful!! 
> So he's come here to try and find out from you kind people!! 
> 
> I've quite a few unusual encounters with DCs before, not all are minless things as I've discovered. One young lady I met recently in a LD said she was a "hedge throw Witch" (whatever that is). She was in fact rather rude to me after I asked her if she was just my DC, she then had me picking tree bark and flowers for her, and promptly left without saying thanks or good bye!  I have no idea what happened or caused this LD, for I have not been thinking anything like this at all!



Good point. Don't fuck with witches by the way.

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## Ethereal

Yeah, just look at Conan. Now *that* was hot sex.

My opinion: It's your dream. Choosing to rape someone won't make you rape someone in real life, but it might, just _might_ indicate a desire to. One can surmise that there is clearly a subliminal desire to force yourself onto someone (not talking about Jeff, more about the other chaps who say they like it), but no one, not even yourself, can understand if those desires will ever overpower your morality. Making the entire debate moot.

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## Watchman

> Good point. Don't fuck with witches by the way.



Ooops ok! Many thanks....but no, I wouldn't "Dream" of doing anything inappropriate to a witch!  :Eek:  

Unless I'm very sure (by asking), I always stay respectful to others in dreams, for I never know for sure who (or what) I'm really talking to!

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## TheEnthusiast

> Yeahhh i didn't get the point...I misread it...I just read the first part and inserted a certain tone into it and didn't read the last sentence...it can be hard to sense internet sarcasm. Yet trying to make me look stupid by saying "it must have gone right over your head" just makes you look like a douchebag internet tough guy. Obviously I misread it, that doesn't have anything to do with my intelligence, I just misread it, so there's no sense in being a dick about it.



I didn't try to make you look stupid. You did that yourself by replying to a forum post that you didn't even bother to read or understand.

And as for my "it must have gone right over your head comment", I think you can see that's an honest mistake. I mistook you for somebody incapable of understanding the post, when you're really just someone who replies to posts before trying to fully read or understand them.

Okay. Maybe now you can argue that I'm being a dick, but this is good character building for you.

Read the posts that you choose to reply to.
Lovingly,
TheEnthusiast.

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## Tara

Use some dream logic, tell her she has to have sex because the moon has a hole in it and it will burn your shoes up if you don't get laid.

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## TheEnthusiast

> Use some dream logic, tell her she has to have sex because the moon has a hole in it and it will burn your shoes up if you don't get laid.



I like your style, friend.

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## GabrielG

Jesus people stop the debating its not a big deal he wanted to have sex in a lucid dream so he made it happen we all knwo he's not gonna do it in real life its perfectly fine basically he just masturbated no big deal

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## Watchman

> Jesus people stop the debating its not a big deal he wanted to have sex in a lucid dream so he made it happen we all knwo he's not gonna do it in real life its perfectly fine basically he just masturbated no big deal



That's true. People have allowed themselves to be hooked and "snagged" on the sexual morality side of dreams.  It's just human nature I suppose.

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## WarBenifit156

It's not a big deal, I've tried to have sex too (on my first lucid) and I didn't even ask. But don't do it all the time or you might just end up doing it in real life.

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## Waterknight

Half the time in my Lucids and regular dreams alike the girls just basically throw it on me. It reflects how I am in real life though. I could have gotten laid so many times in real life but Im still a virgin because I am the shiest guy you will ever see around. In real life it would have to basically be thrown on me for me to take it. Though sometimes very rarely it will be my "idea" in a dream and the DCs never resist.

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## Ethereal

Yeah, I once had to wake myself up from dreamsex with this French babe because the three Latino chicks I'd banged the night before in real life wanted morning sex.

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## dakotahnok

*




			
				And, why do we need a place to practice behavior? Are we born wise and sane, or must we learn to become it?
			
		


I dont know what side you are on. But ill give my opinion. I think we must learn to become it. Like shame, nobody would be ashamed to walk around naked unless society tought them that. If you were born an adult would you have any problem being naked? 

Back to the topic. Did you become lucid and say "i want to rape that girl."? No you said i want to have sex. She was resisting but you knew that you didnt have much time so you had to do the deed with an unwilling partner. 

The other question you need to ask yourself is. "would you even ASK a stranger if they wanted to have sex? Probably not.  But everyone has there own opinion and thats okay. Your intitled to your beliefs and morals. But just look at it from a differient angle. 

Oh yeah i would like to note that the girl in the dream never even said she didnt want to do it. Just because you werent the one she would want to have sex with doesnt mean that you raped her, and it doesnt mean she wasnt willing.*

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## XeL

> Oh yeah i would like to note that the girl in the dream never even said she didnt want to do it. Just because you werent the one she would want to have sex with doesnt mean that you raped her, and it doesnt mean she wasnt willing.







> *She wasnt a very "willing"*  partner but went along with the program anyhow.  It was weird that this dream character that I created  had her own identity and went along with it even *though I could tell she didnt want to*.



This thread is still hilarious by the way.

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## dakotahnok

*





 Originally Posted by Xel

This thread is still hilarious by the way.



Yes, yes it is.*

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## Nwonkun

"Am I a rapist?" And "I have never and would never do this in my waking life." Stop begging for attention, you just answered your own question.

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## kookyinc

> "Am I a rapist?" And "I have never and would never do this in my waking life." Stop begging for attention, you just answered your own question.



I think his moral dilemma has something to do with the question of, "Is doing it wrong, or is doing it to _someone_ wrong?"

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## jason3824

I dont know if I rape my girls in LD's but usually when I realize I'm dreaming I look around and find a good looking chick and just start pulling her clothes off, they never really object or say much about it. sometimes they are like "stop it.. cmon..." and i just tell them to shut the fuck up LOL. Hey it's my dream so whatever. The other night I found a chick with 3 boobs!

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## Mzzkc

You're all rapists in my book.

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## Baron Samedi

This thread = EP1C LULZ

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## Supernova2131

When I play games I like cutting people to pieces, slitting throats, burning them, etc. Does that make me a murderer? No. I wouldn't even be able to punch my biggest enemy without feeling guilty about punching him.

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## XeL

^Exactly. In my dreams I'm a mean, cold-hearted murderer.

In waking life I've never even been in a fight, ever. I despise violence.

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## Mascot

In my lucid dreams I'm usually in an urban area, with a lot of people, a lot of times they just walk around half naked.  I've grabbed boobs and stuff before but never had sex in a dream.  One time this girl was wanting to have sex with me in an LD and she was taking me to some closet.  I was really excited until she said how many STD's she had, even though it was a dream I still ran away. xP

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## mrdeano

I have surprise sex with my DCs all the time  :wink2:

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## Supernova2131

> ^Exactly. In my dreams I'm a mean, cold-hearted murderer.
> 
> In waking life I've never even been in a fight, ever. I despise violence.



Yup.. I'm a pacifist in RL. When I get into a fight with someone (I rarely do) I'm always the one that makes it right again.

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## kookyinc

> ^Exactly. In my dreams I'm a mean, cold-hearted murderer.
> 
> In waking life I've never even been in a fight, ever. I despise violence.



Same with me (that is, if I could actually LD once in a while). Dreams are like video games in that regard, except when you save the princess, it isn't the end of the game.
...
Wink...

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## Mzzkc

> Same with me (that is, if I could actually LD once in a while). Dreams are like video games in that regard, except when you save the princess, it isn't the end of the game.
> ...
> Wink...



I think he's flirting with you, Xel. 

Better watch your bum.

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## kookyinc

> I think he's flirting with you, Xel. 
> 
> Better watch your bum.



I lol'd.

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## Baron Samedi

> In my lucid dreams I'm usually in an urban area, with a lot of people, a lot of times they just walk around half naked.  I've grabbed boobs and stuff before but never had sex in a dream.  One time this girl was wanting to have sex with me in an LD and she was taking me to some closet.  I was really excited until she said how many STD's she had, even though it was a dream I still ran away. xP



NOW THAT'S FUNNY! 

oh noES! Dream STD'S!

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## mackerel

*Dream rape is wrong* , only if you build a dependency on it, because then it is a weakness. I believe in living to the fullest of your human potential - so I consider weakness, or addiction a "sin" or immoral (I am NOT religious). That aside, if the most interesting thing you find yourself doing in a dream is sex, you should really (re)evaluate your personality - you may find out why you're not _"gett'n none"_ in real life...  :smiley: 

Whether something is moral, or immoral is entirely up to you though. That's why we have "psychos", that's why we have "saints". And, just because you're the minority, doesn't mean you're wrong  :wink2: . Now go rape someone, you fucking saints!

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