Thread: Woodstock's NREM WILD guide

No one wants to try it? It really does work, at least for me.

This is basically the steps I go through when I DEILD. It's very impressive that you manage to get WILDs in Non-REM with this without a WBTB.

I am not a fan of methods and techniques so I usually don't read tutorials, to not get attached to something. Instead I try to learn on my own naturally.
Tutorials and methods can have many benefits especially for a beginner that wants to learn the nature of the DILD or WILD technique or rather an Indirect or Direct lucid dreaming entry.
The problem however is that it restricts the view and the belief of the process.

For example almost every WILD guide says that you are not allowed or atleast shouldn't move at all during the WILD process and that have helped to spread the rumor of SP or Sleep paralysis... It happens when we already dream and people who get it before have a disorder, and I am not even sure if they are just experiencing a Nightmare FA. I move slightly during my DEILD and DILD attempts and I still transition to the dream, so swallowing saliva is ok too etc.

But people believe that and gets nervous unfocused and blame themself because they moved, or got uncomfortable and so on.
When it's actually their unbalanced emotions and relation between body and mind that causes them to not succeed. That is an assumption from my side though, but that is how it is for me and when I am in control of my emotions and body and mind well then I succeed.

But to comment on your method and guide, rather than my skepticism to getting used to routines... ^-^ Here it is:

I am, as I said, very impressed that you managed to WILD without a WBTB, I have done it myself but that was because of sleep deprivation or REM-deprivation so it happened in a few seconds as I went to bed. I am however not sure what you mean by NON-REM WILD was your dream as vivid as it can be? And also I am very currious how long this attempt approximately take.
It would be interesting to see if it timed with the usual REM-period (1h 30+ min), not because that is relevant because REM can depend on other factors as I mentioned before.

For me however the only step necessary is meditation. To only be in your awareness unaware of your body can if you let it, become a dream (Your awareness is focused in your emotions, subconscious and memories) It's basically what you do when you imagine something, using data and memory from your life to create a scene and your subconscious and emotions fills it.
So all in all it is a good guide, but I think it looks too simple for people to appreciate unfortunately.

Meditation in itself looks too simple for people to appreciate!

Although you should have big a plus for sharing the fact that WILD can be attained without a WBTB, although I don't suggest beginners to start out with this, if they are not prepared mentally.

Anyway Woodstock keep doing this and please answer my above questions

But if you are open for it, I recommend that you stay in the meditative state and see where it takes you and remember that it is the information you attain that is important, not the actual experience... unless you choose to experience just for joy.

Sweet dreams! ... and beyond

Originally Posted by MasterMind

[quoteI am however not sure what you mean by NON-REM WILD was your dream as vivid as it can be?

It was just like a normal dream. About as vivid as most of my lucid dreams, which would probably be a 7 out of 10, 10 being the most vivid.

It would be interesting to see if it timed with the usual REM-period (1h 30+ min), not because that is relevant because REM can depend on other factors as I mentioned before.

I looked at the time before I started meditating and when I woke up. I don't remember what the exact times were, but there was only about a 15 minute difference.

although I don't suggest beginners to start out with this, if they are not prepared mentally.

Why? I wish I knew this when I first started! It's the easiest way for me to have a lucid dream.

But if you are open for it, I recommend that you stay in the meditative state and see where it takes you and remember that it is the information you attain that is important, not the actual experience... unless you choose to experience just for joy.

That's actually what I was trying to do. Unless I'm too tired, I try to meditate most nights. I've been very close to astral projection a few times.

Wow this looks cool I will try it.

I will help out a little. I am glad you are bringing up nREM WILDs as they extend the ability of the dreamer in a major way. You need to adjust your view on what makes a dream. We are all fairly familiar with REM dreams and initially expect LDs to be like this but lucid. The obvious problem with WILD with out WBTB is the long period before REM hits. nREM WILDing ignores that problem and makes the most out of nREM sleep.
What to expect? The ballance of intensity is shifted away from visual and towards tactile experience and feelings like a sense of motion. Woodstock has it right in that you MUST first be in a meditation state, and second MUST actively visualize to bring about the dream. Do not think about this as the simple WILD where you hope to go straight into REM before you loose awareness, in nREM WILDs you MUST be able to stay concious with a mantra or other anchor. You must first fall asleep and stay aware, that is why Woodstock mentions getting to the state some call SP, but is basically just a true awareness of the body having fallen into actual sleep, while the mind stays aware.
You get to that state of awareness in sleep, and start visualization and trying to simulate walking or some movement like that. If you do not do this, you may not even realize you are in an nREM dream state.
The dream will start with very limited graphics/visuals, but may feel very real and cool. I enjoy flying and shape shifting in nREM lucids, as the feelings are vivid and the visuals are not that important. You may infact never get visuals to evolve beyond cartoon level graphics, but so what?

Originally Posted by sivason

What to expect? The ballance of intensity is shifted away from visual and towards tactile experience and feelings like a sense of motion...The dream will start with very limited graphics/visuals, but may feel very real and cool. I enjoy flying and shape shifting in nREM lucids, as the feelings are vivid and the visuals are not that important. You may infact never get visuals to evolve beyond cartoon level graphics, but so what?

Strange. Both you and MasterMind talk about this. One of them was like this, but the other was just like a normal dream.

Originally Posted by Woodstock

Strange. Both you and MasterMind talk about this. One of them was like this, but the other was just like a normal dream.

You may have been able to enter a REM cycle. In my experience if it is nREM the visuals will be very weak and cartoony (or shadowy/ phantom like). However, I find that actively being lucid in a nREM dream seems too shift me towards true REM. Sometimes I experiences about 5 minutes of nREM LD and suddenly my eyes start flitting about and the dream hits vivid normal LD statues rapidly.

Originally Posted by sivason

You may have been able to enter a REM cycle. In my experience if it is nREM the visuals will be very weak and cartoony (or shadowy/ phantom like). However, I find that actively being lucid in a nREM dream seems too shift me towards true REM. Sometimes I experiences about 5 minutes of nREM LD and suddenly my eyes start flitting about and the dream hits vivid normal LD statues rapidly.

The first one was exactly like you described. I woke up after that and did it again, and that one started about the same as the first one, but it quickly turned into a normal dream. That's what confused me. So do our dreams control REM or does REM control dreams?

Originally Posted by Woodstock

The first one was exactly like you described. I woke up after that and did it again, and that one started about the same as the first one, but it quickly turned into a normal dream. That's what confused me. So do our dreams control REM or does REM control dreams?

I have no proof other than my own experience, but it seems to me that actively creating a nREM dream and intensifying it through lucid interaction and visualization, often moves me quickly into REM.

Are we really constrained to a strict REM cycle, personally I believe not. My WILD without WBTB was just like any other lucid too so I don't see why I should add the nREM tag to it. It's the same with DEILD, so much people talk about timing your sleep so you will happen to enter it at the right time, but I've never had a problem with cycles nor have I ever bothered to time it. Is it really that hard to believe in the possibility that the state of REM can be induced just like almost every other state we can enter?

Not hard for me to imagine. I often seem to be able to induce REM.

Originally Posted by sivason

Not hard for me to imagine. I often seem to be able to induce REM.

Ya I thought you'd be able, it just seems to be another one of those myths engrained into the users of DV. Off course using timing you can plan when it is most natural/easy to induce a lucid however in my experience it is certainly not necessary. Sometimes before I transition into a dream I experience something similar to what you describe as NREM dreams, It's like a mix of hypnagogic transition stage and lucid dream, I can kinda see but it still feels "outside" of my eyes, and i don't reallysee the image I just know where I am, the vibrations also persist and it's way more random than a normal dream, basically me just observing my mind blurt out random patterns relevant to my thoughts.

So, the value of a guide like this is just to let members know they can learn to develop that state in to fairly fun lucid dreams while waiting for or trying to induce REM.
Try it out, when you get it down it can be great fun despite the poor visuals. Just focus on the sensation of walking or dancing or flying. It is different from REM lucids and worth the effort to develop. Even if I just use it to induce REM it makes the early stages of WILD fun.

I'm going to be daring here and suggest that when you WILD at bedtime you don't 'induce REM', you literally go through 1hr 15mins+ of NREM and reach REM sleep. A friend of mine IRL can WILD at bedtime and he's timed his efforts. He wakes after the LD around 90 mins after starting with around 10 mins perceived dream time.

As Eames says, 'of course it's possible, it's just bloody difficult', you're trading over an hour and a quarter of effort for only 5-10 mins of LD.

That's just my take. If Sivason or any one else has timing showing otherwise, I'll gladly concede.

I don't know about the rest of you but I always experience NREM dreams in my WILD attempts, even when they're not successful (99% of attempts).

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I'm going to be daring here and suggest that when you WILD at bedtime you don't 'induce REM', you literally go through 1hr 15mins+ of NREM and reach REM sleep. A friend of mine IRL can WILD at bedtime and he's timed his efforts. He wakes after the LD around 90 mins after starting with around 10 mins perceived dream time.

As Eames says, 'of course it's possible, it's just bloody difficult', you're trading over an hour and a quarter of effort for only 5-10 mins of LD.

That's just my take. If Sivason or any one else has timing showing otherwise, I'll gladly concede.

I don't know about the rest of you but I always experience NREM dreams in my WILD attempts, even when they're not successful (99% of attempts).

Well it's varied for me uptil now, once i literally went straight into a clear lucid dream and then just lost lucidity, but the other time I spent a good twenty minutes getting there through a weird (what seemed like) NREM state. What exactly do you mean with you go through 1hr of NREM? lose awareness, and then regain it once the dream comes in or that our sense of time is changed.
I will time myself for the next few days to find out, what it's like for me.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I'm going to be daring here and suggest that when you WILD at bedtime you don't 'induce REM', you literally go through 1hr 15mins+ of NREM and reach REM sleep. A friend of mine IRL can WILD at bedtime and he's timed his efforts. He wakes after the LD around 90 mins after starting with around 10 mins perceived dream time.

As Eames says, 'of course it's possible, it's just bloody difficult', you're trading over an hour and a quarter of effort for only 5-10 mins of LD.

That's just my take. If Sivason or any one else has timing showing otherwise, I'll gladly concede.

I don't know about the rest of you but I always experience NREM dreams in my WILD attempts, even when they're not successful (99% of attempts).

I agree on the timing part of this when no WBTB occurs. I must go through over an hour of nREM at bedtime to reach REM. It is when I WILD with WBTB that being actively involved in my nREM dreams seems to hurry along the transition to REM, but I have no idea if it is all conicidence.

Either way, by learning to enhance the nREM experience and use the nREM dream states as a form of LD, I get more enjoyment out of the experience of WILD regardless of if I ever hit REM.

I fail to reach REM in 2 out of 3 WILD WBTB attempts, but can always enjoy a little time fooling around in nREM, which can be as adaptable to your will as normal REM LDs.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I'm going to be daring here and suggest that when you WILD at bedtime you don't 'induce REM', you literally go through 1hr 15mins+ of NREM and reach REM sleep.

I looked at the time before and after and the difference was only about 15 minutes. So there are only two possible explanations: we really can 'induce REM' or REM and dreaming are completely separate.

Originally Posted by Woodstock

I looked at the time before and after and the difference was only about 15 minutes. So there are only two possible explanations: we really can 'induce REM' or REM and dreaming are completely separate.

Or it could be a mix, we can induce it to a certain degree and it isn't as restrained to REM sleep as we believe.

Originally Posted by Woodstock

I looked at the time before and after and the difference was only about 15 minutes. So there are only two possible explanations: we really can 'induce REM' or REM and dreaming are completely separate.

I'm not sure what your reasoning was there. Let me just say that since the 50s the evidence has been overwhelmingly that dreaming (the dreams we typically remember as long plot-based experiences) are associated with REM sleep. The 'rapid eye movement' is the action of your eyes looking around the dream environ.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I'm not sure what your reasoning was there. Let me just say that since the 50s the evidence has been overwhelmingly that dreaming (the dreams we typically remember as long plot-based experiences) are associated with REM sleep. The 'rapid eye movement' is the action of your eyes looking around the dream environ.

I said it would have to be one of the two, and since know REM and dreaming are related, I was trying to say that we can control REM more than most people think we do.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I'm not sure what your reasoning was there. Let me just say that since the 50s the evidence has been overwhelmingly that dreaming (the dreams we typically remember as long plot-based experiences) are associated with REM sleep. The 'rapid eye movement' is the action of your eyes looking around the dream environ.

However, it has been scientifically proven that dreaming does occur in nREM sleep also, and it has been proven that you can have lucids in nREM (just google it for proof, I am on a mobile).

So, my whole point is that learning to create lucid and vivid (for nREM) nREM dreams is a skill few learn or talk about, but has a huge amount to offer. Please, anyone reading this, expand your view on what is a dream and open yourself to the idea of nREM LDs.

Originally Posted by sivason

However, it has been scientifically proven that dreaming does occur in nREM sleep also, and it has been proven that you can have lucids in nREM (just google it for proof, I am on a mobile).

So, my whole point is that learning to create lucid and vivid (for nREM) nREM dreams is a skill few learn or talk about, but has a huge amount to offer. Please, anyone reading this, expand your view on what is a dream and open yourself to the idea of nREM LDs.

I didn't deny that dreaming occurs in NREM. I was taking issue that Woodstock seemed to be arguing that REM and dreams are unrelated, which is quite some leap.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

I was taking issue that Woodstock seemed to be arguing that REM and dreams are unrelated, which is quite some leap.

I'm not trying to say that they're unrelated, did you read my last reply to that?

Hey Woodstock, interesting guide. Your link in your signature needs to start with http (colon) // though, btw.

I had a dream like this a few nights ago, if I can call it that by an extended definition of "hallucination at night".

I'm a hypnotist and was taught by the discoverers of a theory of hypnosis called "automatic imagination". Basically you imagination something happening automatically, such that it will happen without your needing to consciously attend to it. You imagine it continuing without your help. If you are reminded that you're imagining, you imagine what you want to imagine and also that you won't be reminded. This seems to cause you to experience what you want to imagine as real.

I was laying on my bed practicing dream incubation and visualization. I was visualizing a meadow and talking to a guide in the dream, using automatic imagination. I started to feel sensations in body that I was not consciously creating. It was like I was shape shifting and incorporating parts of things into my body. Not very visual really, but very tactile. Very cool.

I didn't exactly use your method but I will try it because WBTB's aren't huge fun. Thanks.

I know that we have different areas of our brain associated with different parts of our physical body, e.g. an area for the tongue, the hands, the face, the feet. If we think about these parts merging, perhaps the neural connections between those areas are also feeling what it's like.

The way I think about hallucinations in general (which may be mistaken) is that we aren't exactly changing the sensory input but changing the associations with the sensory input, so we see a dog and think "banana" and thus hallucinate the dog as a banana and see a banana.

I don't know if these thoughts are related but I find quickly-attained lucid dreams to be the most fascinating, as yet.

Cheers!