Datura and the Dream

[Serpent]

For awile Datura has been tantalising me with its magnificent flowers.

Over the year, I have read a couple of people noting it induced LD's. Im planning on doing some self experimentation to see what kind of effects it has on the dream state.

I am fully aware of the dangers of atropine and scopolamine and how varied they are within the plant. I will be making a homogenised mix of plant matter and starting with very low amounts. Waiting two weeks between re-dosing. I dont wont to be in a state of delirium for 2 days This is going to be a futre project, after uni mid-semester exams and once my plants put some growth back on (bug infestation )

Just wanting some input from the community, especially for those who may have tried it.

[guerilla]

I'll give you 1 tip, it can kill so PLEASE look up dosages on the net

also, i hear its VERY unpleasant so...I'm not sure if you really wanna do it

anyways, let us know what happens, im curious to know what it does, if anything

I'm not sure if you knew this but in Haiti they drug people up with puffer-fish venom and then intoxicate them with datura, and they're pretty much zombies so, if you start moaning and groaning and shuffle as you walk, gimme a call ill be sure to exterminate you

j/k

[StephenT]

There are other drugs that help to induce lucid dreams such as Mugwort and Calea. If this drug is only sometimes noted for inducing LDs, don't do it for that purpose alone. There are other drugs.

Also, you can just go ahead and get some Galantamine and Choline, which is a very good LD shot.

If it's life risky, don't ever do something like that. It's not worth it for a little high and maybe some LDs. Research wouldn't be very helpful since nobody would really want to do that both because of the risk and the other, better ways of getting LDs.

If you insist on doing it, do as guerilla said and look up dosages, then go lower than what they say you should take. Always safe is better than sorry, and it would be sad if you ended up dieing or getting incapacitated because of a stupid high.

[Serpent]

I am fully aware of the dangers of atropine and scopolamine

Im not looking for a high, what im looking for is a way to induce the quote "dream like state" of datura into the dream world. If i wanted a hi I would smoke the pot

I dont think Datura/brug is something that needs to been yelled and screamed about, more, given great respect. I never intend of putting my self into the 'normal' delusion state that it brings, but rather the threshold levels that effect the subconsciousness.

Looking into Galantamine and Choline now.

[guerilla]

Originally Posted by Serpent

Im not looking for a high, what im looking for is a way to induce the quote "dream like state" of datura into the dream world. If i wanted a hi I would smoke the pot

I dont think Datura/brug is something that needs to been yelled and screamed about, more, given great respect. I never intend of putting my self into the 'normal' delusion state that it brings, but rather the threshold levels that effect the subconsciousness.

Looking into Galantamine and Choline now.

try erowid.org, they have some info about datura and other various psychoactives

like i said before, u turn into a zombie let me know!

[Serpent]

Ive flicked through erowids datrua vaults quite alot. Most of them just seem like idoits wanting to get fucked up.

Im looking for information specifically on low dosages and the effects on dream. I may repost this on some other etho forums Would like some personal accounts.

[lucidus]

I have this beautiful datura flower in my garden (and during winter time in my living room) and I found out that she likes me and even (in a way) tried to sort of "seduce" me. But I have never really started more than a "small flirt" with her.

But... I have tried a bit of another solanaceae plant: mandrake (as root). It's also dangerous but maybe not as much as datura (but don't take my word for it -- never try anything on yourself unless you know exactly what you are doing!).

What can I tell you? Last time I tried mandrake I had almost no effects in waking life. But after a few hours of sleep I woke up, tried to WILD and felt vibrations almost instantly in a very strong manner. It was like my whole head was vibrating, starting on its skin from back to front.

Then I found myself in a dreamscene (WILD worked) but unfortunately a few moments later my alarm clock woke me up.

I don't know how this stuff works. For a long time I stayed away from anticholinergics since I made a lot of experiments with the exact "antidote" (galantamine). Maybe it's because the body notices that acetylcholine is no longer effective because of the antagonist and produces large amounts of it to counteract and when the ACh antagonist starts to lose its effect, than it is overwhelming (at least this is a theory of author James Kent in his upcoming book "Psychedelic Information Theory").

[SKA]

And I had SOOOO hoped no one would ever mention this dangerious flower's name when earlier I spoke of " The Flower who's name shall not be mentioned".

I find this plant truely amazing and I fearfully respect her. And that is the first plant I've ever called "her" cuz in my Dream the night following her ingestion I met her spirit; An old witchlady in a robe with a bipolar, tricky character. I posted my Datura Dream quite a while back on this forum in my DJ-topic I have long neglected here. Maybe try searching for "SKA's Dreams" if you're interrested.

The reason I had hoped this flower's name would never be mentioned is, because you and I know just HOW dangerious this plant's effects are both physically and psychologically, (OH BOY FOR YOUR SAKE I HOPE YOU INDEED ARE AWARE OF THE TRUE NATURE AND HEALTH RISKS OF THIS PLANT!!! o_õ) but many naïve kids seeking to get high on easily available sources probably do not realise how dangerious this plant is and how undesirable and dangerious it's mental effects are. Not to mention it is fatally toxic. And if they find out and read up a bit on the plant they'll soon find out that the most insane, intense mystical experiences come from a plant that grows in their neighbors garden or at the local ornamental garden or park this may lead to some seriously dangerious situations. It's best if this plant remains totally unknown to the masses so that only TRUELY interrested people know about it; People who, in general, I deem alot more responsible, serious and knowledgable than the average kid in search of a high.

This is the reason I mentioned this Flower before, as a great Dream Potentiator, but deliberately never mentioned it's name and encouraged DV members who recognised and knew what flower I spoke of to do the same.

YES Datura can be a very powerfull allie for it will defenitely induce Bizare, Vivid Dreams, most likely in the nightmare range. Datura's spirit wasn't nice to me and I can't recall anyone to who she hasn\'t been brutal; She was a frightfull experience. I have had 1 daytime experience with a MINUTE piece of this flower in tea form and that brought on a Mystical sensation of extreme Darkness, Dispair, anticipation and feeling generally "unsafe", exposed and vurnerable followed by my nighttime experiences (2ce) which were sheer terror( allthough enjoyable terror A.K.A. Spiritual nightmares.)
And take that from someone who, allthough open to South american, native mythology, is rather sceptic and YET calls this plant a powerfull spirit to be fearfully respected.
This plant was one of the plants that lead me from BELIEVING there is "more" to KNOWING there is "more".


Nevertheless it still is a very interresting Dream potentiator worthy of research, but since we just blew this thing wide open: Let's explicitly teach about the dangers of this plant and why not to try to be a smartass/roughneck and try to take a "trip" with this plant. Don't FUCK with Datura; once Datura is in you, Datura will do all the fucking with the naïve user at the receiving end. And She isn't very Romantic I can testify. If need be I'll link you guys up with a WHOLE bunch of good reasons why to NEVER EVER ingest it in doses enough to "Trip" on.
If you are so dumb as to try it anyway: it's not a trip, but a Delirium; people wake up with their house trashed, VCR tapes in the fridge, Toiletpaperrolls in drawers, they themselves naked, scratched/brused and with no recollection of how all that happened. These are things that REALLY happened to peeps on Datura. One guy woke up naked, covered in his own feaces, covered in scratches and blood in the back of a truck 3 HOURS driving from his house with no recollection of how he got there.


Well I guess I got my message across.


---------------------


I have this Dread/Beauty-full flower growing in this very room for her magical presence and Dreaming experiments. Knowing the minimum dose of at least 1 whole flower to induce the dreadfull, to-be-avoided Datura Delirium I allways take REDICULOUS precaution and my Datura dose for Dreaming purposes thusfar had been about a 1 by 1 inch piece of flower in my tea just before bedtime. Anyone who is genuinely interrested in Datura for Dreaming purposes is STRONGLY advised to keep to the same dosages and level of caution I use; I have done my homework on this plant, it's effects, it's healthrisks and people's dreadfull experiences on this plant.

PS: If anyone is interrested in my Dreadfull, but wonderfull, Mystic Datura nightmare I can post it here.

[Serpent]

Wow thank you for wonderful post

Looks for your report now*

[jamous]

Originally Posted by SKA

If need be I'll link you guys up with a WHOLE bunch of good reasons why to NEVER EVER ingest it in doses enough to "Trip" on.


If anyone is interrested in my Dreadfull, but wonderfull, Mystic Datura nightmare I can post it here.

actually I would be quite interested to see the links and your dream

[SKA]

Allright I will post my Dream soon because it is rather late and I should go to bed soon. I think tonight will be a good night to grab my bag of dried Datura flowers and have another cup of Tea out of a tiny piece of a flower.

[jamous]

Originally Posted by SKA

Allright I will post my Dream soon because it is rather late and I should go to bed soon. I think tonight will be a good night to grab my bag of dried Datura flowers and have another cup of Tea out of a tiny piece of a flower.

well, I'll be interested to hear of both experiences, the last and tonight's if anything happens.

[jamous]

From www.erowid.com, here is a really disturbing account of a kid who did datura without any real prior education on it: http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=37034

[SKA]

Erowid's Dreadfull experience reports were the links I meant.

Last night I took a little more than 1/4th of a dried Datura flower and a small Datura Leaf and strained a Tea from. I drank it right before bedtime. I felt the effect take hold of me stronger and faster than I thought it would. The same darkness and uneasyness came over me, but this time I wasn't too worried. Like the witches call their Datura ointment the Flying Ointment as it brings the sensation of flying/floating which I have experienced for myself.

My dreams were not well remembered, perhaps due to my mom vacuümcleaning my Atelier room 1 floor below. I DID have wild dreams and snippets of memory remain. I know my sisters boyfriend was in the Dream and something about a festival/amusementpark-kind of scene. My First Datura dream in which I met the Lady herself was on a night AFTER I had just drank a humble, threshhold dose of Datura Tea with a friend. I guess some of it's effects or after effects lingered when I tried drinking a Datura Tea again that night in humble, cautios amounts. So I will try this again tonight.


Now I know that Choline seems to aid vivid, clear, memorable Dreaming. Datura contains Anti Cholinergic substances. So I suppose it is when Datura's AntiCholinergic effects wear off one experiences an Acetyl-coline rebound resulting in very vivid, consciously experienced dreams.

Maybe an Idea:
Now Scopolamine, Atropine and Hyosciamine (Datura's 3 psycho-active alkaloids of which Scopolamine is said to be the main Hallucinogenic/Psychedelic one) are anti-cholinergic substances; Meaning they inhibit the uptake of Choline by blokCholine-Receptors in the Brain.
What if one were to predload oneself with Choline supplements or Choline/Choline-precursor rich foods in the evening till the moment just before going to bed. And Then drink a cup of Datura Tea. Maybe all the Choline that couldn't be taken into the Receptors suddenly CAN when the Datura effect wears off.

Interresting links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscarinic_antagonist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopolamine

[SKA]

Interresting experience reports that indicate Datura in Low, safe doses may just be a perfect dream-intensifying herb that make one experience dreams with a higher awareness ( these people reported longer, more continuous and lifelike-realistic dreams that were lucid ) Check out the reports of people so unwise and naïve to try out a "trippy" dose of datura. Notice how all their experiences end in a night of VERY VERY vivid dreaming, allmost all of thm Lucid.

Check it out:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=49308
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=8657

The suggestion given here is that 2 to 5 Datura seeds is an Oneirogenic dose.
Last night I took 3 datura seeds which I had freshly harvested that day in my garden.
I had a very wild night full of dreams and before falling asleep I had VERY vivid Hypnagogic imagery and strange tactile sensations like those felt when allmost alseep but much sooner. Too bad I awoke because of my friend's telephone ringing and lost all recall. Bits of it still linger and I have flashbacks of split-seconds of last night's dreams throughout the day.

I'll be trying this again tonight with 2 seeds. Anyone down for this? Remember kids: Never more than 5 seeds. Unless you seek to die or lose your mind forever in a nightmare-ish way. 5 seeds is a safe dose that can never bring you into the much feared Datura Delirium-state, let alone be toxically dangerious. However it is adviced to do this no more often than every once a week or so. You don't want to build up any significant bloodlevels of atropine or scopolamine.

Chewing 3 seeds prior to sleep gave me very mild, "flying" sensations over my body and alot more closed eye pre-dream imagery than usual.
Tonight I will chew another 2 seeds tonight prior to bed( bearing in mind that the scopolamine and atropine of last night's 3 seeds is still in my system ) and make DAMN sure I won't be awoken abruptly tomorrow. Meaning Telephone off and making a clear point to my mom that she should not wake me up tomorrow.

[Lethargica]

Do let us know how this experiment has gone, i'm EXTREMELY interested! Good luck

[SKA]

tried this twice now. Once with 3 seeds and once with 5 seeds. My dreams were near impossible to remember, as they have been for a very long time now. My DreamRecall is in a really bad shape for allmost a year now. All along I've attempted to keep my dreamdiary but no DreamRecall progress has occured.

Dispite having very little memory of my dreams, I have split-second flashbacks of my dreams throughout the day. Like ALOT of information: location, people, situation, atmosphere..everything. But the memories, no matter how detailed and complete flash by so fast that I cannot comprehend the memories of the ultra short flashbacks.

And dispite hardily any to zero dreamrecall I could defenitely tell that the 2 nights I ate the Seeds had caused wild, vivid, impressive dreams as the feeling of just having been through ALOT of experiences still lingered after awakening. I could tell that I had very intense dreams, though they were JUST below the surface of my Conscious memory, you know what I'm speaking of?

Perhaps any good tips for increasing my DreamRecall without the use of a DreamJournal?
Perhaps something more in the direction of selfhypnosis, mnemonic setting of intention, Supplements/Herbs/Foods, or other clever tricks as dreamrecall-improvement tools are more likely to "be heard" by my Subconscious and gain me access to my Subconscious (Dream)memories.

Anyone here who thinks she/he can help me with that? Cause I think this Datura experiment will only be fruitfull once I can at least remember 2 Dreams a night.

If anyone can help me improve my DreamRecall, I will report back results on my 5 Datura seeds & Dreaming experiment.

[SKA]

DreamRecall's someat better these days. Still not great. But tonight I will eat 3 Datura seeds +/- an hour before bedtime and wash it away with some applejuice.

[SKA]

Oh boy I had some Vivid inferno dreams last night. And such great recall. Haven't experienced such vividness and such great DreamRecall in many many months if not well over a year.

I have yet to find out wether the Applejuice was to blaim or the 3 Datura seeds I ate. I did both seperately before without significant results so I'm placing my betsn on the Combination of the 2.

Trying this again soon.

[SKA]

I see that I forgot to post my Dream in which I encountered Lady Datura. What a shame. So I will do it now anyways.

I Dreamt that I was in some kind of enviroment with big buildings, looking alot like TV-studios. I was walking down a red carpet of some sort when I crossed an elderly lady sitting on the ground, motionless. 2 people walked ahead of me and I stopped as I noticed a Scorpion crawling on the ground near the Elderly lady. She was cloacked in a grey/kaki colored, worn down robe of some crude material. She was staring in front of her.

I stopped and said: "Excuse me lady, but your Scorpion is loose and crawling around here". She said nothing and still had the same dead-stare in her eyes. Her eyes were like 2 luminous yellow balls and her face was old and wrinkled. I sat down to look her in the face and put my hands in her hands which were on her lap.

They felt really warm and caring. You know how some people's hands feel kind and loving? Just like that. So I layed my head on her lap and relaxed into her kind, warm hands with a smile and closed eyes. Then suddenly I felt her vibe change from a kind one to a Cold, wicked, vengefull and evil one and her hands had an iron grip on mine. I couldn't release myself from her grip, couldn't even move out of her lap. Totally numbed I looked up into her eyes and was overcome by the cold deadstare. Behind her head, in her Cloak, I saw the same luminous Yellow light as in her eyes, shine and illuminate the inside of the cloak behind her head. Out of this light, in the Cloak, emerged the legs of an enormous spider who was comming up from below. The legs were about as long as my own arms. It was comming out to eat me. To tear me appart and consume me. I was sure of this and yet couldn't move an inch.

I saw its jaws extend to my face and in utmost dispair I prepared to be devoured. Then i awoke in quite a shock as you can Imagine.

That was Lady Datura forcing respect and telling me not to take her lightly. I followed up her advice.

After the last Datura-Dreaming experiment, in which I took 3 seeds as described in my Previous post, I have still had it's oneirogenic effects this week. It seemed to have boosted my DreamRecall for the rest of the week. very significantly.

Last night I dreamt about a house in the wilderness that had a dark, sinister atmosphere about it and the night before I dreamt of a poorly lit gymhall where a sort of walking oven-beast was searching for me and jumped up with it's furnace mouth open to gulp me up and incinerate me. Later I was in that Gymhall again, fully lit, and I was in the Iron grip of a Vampire man who looked like a stereotypical badass gymnastics teacher in his 40s but he had an inhumanly strong grip from which I couldn't release myself, Had eyes that were VERY bright green/grey-ish and looked at me hysterically. His teeth were sticking out and I was thinking: Can't get loose, gotta undergo his will. Then I would look at his fangs again and the hysterical, obsessive look in his eyes that just said: I want your blood and thought: Hellno I can't do this!!. I awoke before he bit me.

[tommo]

HAHA I was like oh god no someone mentioned Dature, coz I remember that thread you made all that time ago saying not to mention it's name haha
I agree with SKA it's a very dangerous substance. I honestly don't know how you can love it SKA. I took a bit one night and smoked it (researched on it pretty heavily before I tried it) and as soon as I inhaled this intense cold rush just went all over my body and freaked me the fuck out. Not sure if my dreams were vivid at all.
Serpent did you ever try it on the dose ska said to take?

[Ralael]

: Points at avatar :

I have a batch of D. Inoxia seeds that I harvested from a mother plant in the Colorado Mountains. I've tried anywhere from 5-15 seeds before bedtime with varying effects. I don't recommend ANYONE take more than 20-30 seeds (or 2 flowers/leaves, if you prefer tea). EVER. The truth is that She is a very fickle lady; I trust Her only because I cultivate Her myself every year and tend to her dotingly as She grows. There is definitely potential here, but I honestly wouldn't recommend Datura to anyone new at the Psychedelic game or anybody home alone. If you're looking for a cheap "in" to LDing... you're probably in for a very rude awakening. If you are searching for a way to extend your consciousness in a holistic manner while giving due respect to a dangerous plant... all I will say is do your homework. Research more than you think you need to. This plant puts people in comas as a hobby.

For the record, general consensus seems to be that D. Inoxia produces more favorable dream effects that D. Metel or other variants.

[Blakesawake]

There are others that aren't killers. Try something else

[Garjzla]

yeah dont do it, even if it does work i could be the placibo affect and also there is no point risking it...also if you can ld naturally you wont need ANY drug

[SKA]

Garjzla: Some drugs'/herbs' ACTUAL effects are arguable as to wether there may be placebo instead of actual effect. This is not the case with Datura.
Mushrooms, Peyote, Salvia and the like also belong in this "No possibility of effects being placebo"-group with Datura. And also: The question is not wether or not certain herbs/drugs are NEEDED in lucid Dreaming, but instead wether or not certain herbs/Drugs are HELPFULL in lucid Dreaming.

Originally Posted by Blakesawake

There are others that aren't killers. Try something else

The Difference between a Medicine/Divining agent and a poison is the Dose.
Do you know what happens if you take just a couple too many paracetamol painkillers? Try overingesting coffee. You will wake up in hospital with white robbed folks pumping out the contents of your stomach. IF you're lucky.

Proven by me and 2 folks known from erowid experiences, 2 to 5 Datura seeds are perfectly oneirogenic. Datura becomes a (possible)killer in doses from 20 seeds and more. And the deliriant dose can, if you have an unusually, extremely strong batch, start at as little as 15 seeds. But that is one case I read about and most of the times a deliriant dose starts from 1 to 2 TABLEspoons of seeds.

The 2 - 5 seed range is allways safe, allthough slightly psychoactive never deliriant and perfectly oneirogenic. The only caution I want to give is to never use oneirogenic doses of Datura seeds 2 nights in a row: You might build up a significant bloodlevel of scopolamine if you are to consume even only 3 datura seeds for 3 succeeding nights.

Smoking Datura gives acute but relatively weak effects. No delirium is to be expected from smoking Datura leaf or flowers. Only a mild, but defenite intoxication in the "intensity-class" of Marijuana, with occasional, possible slight visuals and a mild rise in mood/perception overall.

I am thinking of other plants which effects are expectably/known/rumoured to be oneirogenic, such as Salvia Divinorum, psilocybe mushrooms, peyote/sanpedro cactus, Calea Zacatechichi and African DreamRoot(Silene Capensis) with which to combine Datura as a potent Oneirogenic HerbMixture.